text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Grayson Walker

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete --cesarb 14:24, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Grayson Walker
Vanity page created by User:Agwiii, a User:RexJudicata sockpuppet, about himself. this person is utterly unnotable, and should be deleted for that reason SqueakBox 20:52, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Parents Without Rights. He's not utterly nonnotable, but he isn't notable enough to get his own article. --Angr/undefined 05:56, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete vanity. JamesBurns 09:20, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete or userfy any article in the main namespace created by its subject. If someone is truly notable, let someone else create an article. Jonathunder 18:30, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete, per above. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson 01:43, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * ''' This is simply more cyberharassment by SqueakBox who is on a vendetta. Don't be fooled by him and led into his vendetta. He continues to make false claims and spreads lies after being told by an International Anti-Harassment organization that he is a Cyber Stalker and Harasser. Rex Judicata 12:51, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Retain Ignore this VFD because it is based upon the personal vendetta of SqueakBox. I am Rex Judicata and I am not Agwiii. This is just one of the lies being spread by SqueakBox about me. He is a Wikipedia pest and troll. The rule is, "don't feed the trolls." Furthermore, I am a member of Parents Without Rights and have met Dr. Walker. I suggest before you decide that his work for children and families in America is not "notable," you should visit the Parents Without Rights website at www.ParentsWithoutRights.org and join the discussion group on Yahoogroups. If you base your decision upon facts and not the harassment of SqueakBox, you'll see through SqueakBox and leave this page alone. ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by RexJudicata (talk • contribs) 13:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This Vfd should have been terminated a week ago, please do so now, SqueakBox 13:33, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Cyberstalking, Harassment, & Dog Posting by SqueakBox
SqueakBox follows me around Wikipedia and vandalizes anything I touch. He tells the lie that I, Rex Judicata, am also Agwiii and has posted this lie in several places. I simply delete the lie. However, the very nature of Wikipedia encourages the behavior of people like SqueakBox. He claims to be a deletionist, but is actually an obsessionist and Cyberstalker.

Law enforcement on the Internet is a challenge for all countries, but we have seen some dramatic events with creators of denial of service, virus, spam, etc. being brought to justice. I am a resident of Florida, and have been an Internet Safety Activist for years.

I have worked to help the passage of Florida 2003 Cyberstalking Law. Those administrators who believe in Wikipedia should question why behavior that is outlawed by Florida (and many other states and countries) would be condoned by Wikipedia. I suggest that this is the case - that Wikipedia allows cyberstalking, harassment and dog posting -- and that it is time for Wikipedia to change.

Questions and comments? Email me at RexJudicata@gmail.com

Signed proudly and accurately by Rex Judicata 13:29, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * Yoyu are not allowed to delete accusations of sockpuppetry against yourself. It was anopther use, not me, who first reached that conclusion, SqueakBox 13:43, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

Deleting comments from Vfd, as you have just done RexJudicata, is considered vandalism and may result in your being blocked, SqueakBox 14:18, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Template talk:Proposal

Shortcut layout
The new simple code is fine, but I still think that the shortcut should be smaller, more like it was yesterday. Unfortunately shortcut is protected, and just adding <small> has no effect. -- Omniplex 23:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

"This page"
The current wording "This page is a proposed..." doesn't make much sense when the template is transcluded into another page, such as a user page. I suggest changing it to "The following is a proposed...". — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   11:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Since nobody has objected I went ahead and made the change. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   10:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed policy template
This template is for a proposed policy and such. It automatically puts them into Category:Wikipedia proposals. Articles and templates don't need to be proposed. Just do it. Rfrisbietalk 18:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

"Consensus" edit war
Radiant!, John254 and David Levy: please stop fighting over whether there should be a link to WP:VIE or not and discuss it here like adults. Incidentally, I agree with John254's take on the issue. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   10:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

 * It is exceedingly common for novice users to wrongly believe that proposals are to be voted upon. That's why it's a good idea to point it out to them that they're not.  > R a d i a n t <  20:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This template isn't intended to be used as a soapbox for disputed contentions as to how policy may be formed. We have enacted policies as a result of votes -- see Arbitration policy ratification vote and Three revert rule enforcement.  Instead, this template should inform users of the undisputed principles of policy ratification -- that enacting policies requires consensus, and that the nature of consensus is described in detail in the consensus guideline.  Indeed, the WP:VIE essay itself cautions against making blanket single-sentence pronouncements on policy matters:"when you distill an essay's worth of thought into a single phrase, an oversimplified, divisive statement inevitably results"While I disagree with most of WP:VIE, this observation appears to be quite accurate. John254 22:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * However, in 95% of the cases this template is used for proposing guidelines, not policy. We do not vote on guidelines. Also, the fact that we have at some point in the past voted on some policy does not mean we vote on policy now - on Wikipedia you can claim precedent for just about anything, but we've learned from some of those not to repeat them. Recent policies (e.g. WP:PROD) have not been voted upon.  > R a d i a n t <  22:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The fact that we have adopted many policies without voting, does not imply that we can't adopt policies as a result of votes. If there is a clear consensus to adopt a certain policy, voting on it is simply a repetitive waste of time.  We have used votes on policies where the discussions are deadlocked and voting allows resolution of the issues.  Furthermore, making a policy requires a higher level of consensus than making a guideline -- consequently, the ability to vote policies into effect necessarily implies the ability to enact guidelines in a similar manner. John254 23:12, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * False, per WP:NOT a bureaucracy. Educating novice users against a very real problem is far more important than some legalistic interpretation for borderline cases.  > R a d i a n t <  23:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Putting a statement to the effect of "You can never make guidelines or policy by voting" on the template is not "educating novice users" -- it's miseducating novice users. Such users would be much better off reading Consensus than a one-sentence blanket pronouncement that is inaccurate and/or disputed in many respects.  This template simply indicates that a policy is proposed -- it isn't intended to be used for propaganda. John254 23:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Why did you include me in your list of users "fighting over whether there should be a link to WP:VIE or not"? I personally have no strong opinion regarding the link's presence, and I haven't once removed or inserted it.  I've merely reworded the statement for accuracy when it already was there.  —David Levy 20:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Doctl

 * Doc. John Reid 05:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Pros and cons (formerly Ironic Straw Poll)
Seeing as there has been an edit war, I wish to help in reaching an agreement. To see where the people involved stand, I wish to conduct an ironic straw poll. This is more to summarize the opinions and to have discussion from there than it is to come to a binding conclusion.
 * Addendum: To make this more of a discussion than a vote, please state your reason why you are commenting where you are. ★ MESSED  ROCKER ★  03:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I have decided to go in another direction with this. Instead, I would like if we were to list why we should and why we shouldn't note that polls/majority don't equate to consensus. ★ MESSED  ROCKER ★  11:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Why there shouldn't be a note

 * 1) The nature of consensus is disputed, and ill suited to summary treatment in one sentence. Therefore, we should not use this template as a forum for disputes as to what does or does not constitute consensus. A link to Consensus is quite sufficient. A dispute over the nature of consensus is indicated by the recent edit war over the status of Discuss, don't vote, and by the discussions on Wikipedia_talk:Discuss, don't vote, amongst other events. There's clearly a dispute as to the degree to which supermajority opinion may be used as an indication of consensus, and the extent to which voting is, or should be, used on Wikipedia.  While this revision of the template claimed that a majority does not constitute consensus, the term "majority" could be taken to indicate "supermajority" unless we specifically state that a "simple majority" does not constitute consensus.  This, while true, might imply an endorsement of "supermajority consensus".  There's really no way to avoid stating a disputed position on the template if we try to define what consensus is not in one sentence.  The content of Consensus isn't disputed, of course, but only because it is describes various competing theories as to what consensus is without endorsing any of them.  For instance, consider the following sentence: "While consensus-building is still the preferred method, some contributors have also come to use a supermajority as one of the determinations." Does that mean that a supermajority can indicate a consensus?  Perhaps, or perhaps not.  Similarly, even if we are to use supermajority opinion as an indicator of consensus, we don't really know what the numerical thresholds are. John254 03:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) I oppose discouragement of polls. I think that they can be one of several tools to help resolve conflicts.  I am also certain that they validate consensus by any reasonable definition of consensus.  I think putting such a statement in the warning is an effort to enforce contra-consensus bias on wikipedia.  But... even if all those objections went away, I would still be opposed because I think its better for templates to be kept simpler.  I especially support the current version because it is very simple and does not place assumptions on other wikipedians. --Blue Tie 05:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Further irony
The issue is not about how polls or majority equate to consensus. The issue is that people frequently think that a proposal cannot be adopted without being voted upon. That is incorrect, per WP:POL, and to educate people it would be useful to have a statement on that. ( Radiant ) 09:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * What happened to your pretty signature? I never really liked the poll to begin with, but I hadn't thought of anything else. Luckily I just did -- instead of voting, we can list why we should note it and why we shouldn't. ★ MESSED  ROCKER ★  11:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't particularly care whether we note that polls/majority don't equate to consensus. I believe it important to educate users that, per WP:POL, proposals are not decided upon by vote counting. And, by your request:  > R a d i a n t <  13:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * While it is true that consensus to adopt a proposal can be ascertained either with or without a formal vote, this revision of the template is not conducive to conveying this precise message. Moreover, favoring this particular aspect of consensus in the language of the template would give it undue prominence with respect to all other aspects of consensus of which new users should be informed.  Since attempting to summarize Consensus in the language of this template would make it unacceptably large, a link to Consensus should suffice to inform new users of the nature of consensus on Wikipedia. John254 00:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * By the looks of it, the reason not to include a reference to how polls don't equate to consensus is because linking to Wikipedia:Consensus is good enough. Perhaps one settlement is making the link to Consensus more conspicuous? Also, feel free to add more choices to the strawpoll. ★ MESSED  ROCKER ★  02:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ironically, John254 was the one who proposed the wording that he now objects to. The previously agreed-upon wording was David Levy's version that "[consensus] is not determined by counting votes" . That is the precise thing we should educate people about. ( Radiant ) 12:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

 * The claim that I "proposed the wording that... [I] now [object] to" is factually incorrect. The version I proposed stated that "A simple (>50%) majority in favor of a proposal does not constitute consensus", while the version to which Radiant! reverted stated that "A majority in favor of a proposal does not constitute consensus." The former version is quite clear in its statement of the fact that a simple majority does not amount to a consensus, while the latter version could be construed to imply that a supermajority wouldn't constitute a consensus either -- despite the fact that supermajority opinion is frequently employed as an indicator of consensus in various Wikipedia processes and that some policy proposals have been enacted as a result of voting, as I explained at length on Wikipedia talk:Discuss, don't vote.  Moreover,  Radiant! first added language concerning the nature of consensus to the template; I created my version in an attempt to resolve a content dispute over the removal of this language.  Since the disagreement over what constitutes consensus will inevitably produce a dispute over the language of this template if it includes a single sentence about what consensus is not, I submit that the template should not attempt to define consensus, but should merely contain a link to Consensus, a guideline which treats both sides of this issue in a somewhat fair and balanced manner. John254 01:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * TEMPLATE:PROPOSED - FAIR AND BALANCED (Sorry, I had to). Anyways, ass I've said, a settlement between a simple link and specifically wording the situation is putting something along the lines of "See Also: Consensus". However, I have not received any opinions about this proposed plan. Any thoughts? ★ MESSED  ROCKER ★  01:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's an excellent idea. I strongly endorse making the link to Consensus more prominent. John254 01:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * More appropriate links would be How to create policy and Policies and guidelines. Once more, the issue is not whether this template should define consensus; that's a red herring. The issue is that people frequently mistakenly think that a formal vote is required to adopt a proposal. ( Radiant ) 12:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the optimal solution is to drop the final sentence entirely, and instead make use of our lovely redundancy avoider the wikilink. By linking the word "proposed" in the first sentence to How to create policy, we would not only get across the point the policy discussions are not elections (especially since WP:HCP already states in large bold letters that they are not decided on by majority votes) but also link the users to a variety of other helpful information. It would also have the benefit of decluttering the template. If I may extend a principle here, I would hold that feature creeping the policy templates (specifically, turning them into WP:NOT reduxes) is a bad thing for the same reasons instruction creeping the policy pages themselves is. --tjstrf talk 11:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That would assume that people read all links from a page, even if the linked word doesn't necessarily say a lot about what it links to. People have recently been arguing that HCP doesn't apply to guidelines, and that supermajority in an eight-hour vote is equivalent to consensus. Apparently the bold letters aren't enough. ( Radiant ) 12:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Removal of "Proposals on Wikipedia are not enacted through a majority vote."
This statement, while technically true, is implicitly disparaging towards the enactment of proposals through supermajority voting since many users will conflate majority voting and supermajority voting, unless we specifically state that "Proposals on Wikipedia are not enacted through a simple majority vote." Such a statement, however, would likely prove controversial in its own right, since it would implicitly endorse supermajority voting. Simply put, this template is not the proper forum for disputes as to the extent to which voting is, can, and should be employed on Wikipedia. Consequently, this template should neither endorse nor condemn voting in any way. Furthermore, a prominent announcement that "Proposals on Wikipedia are not enacted through a majority vote" in this template gives undue weight to this particular aspect of consensus, since other aspects of consensus are not similarly described in this template itself. As attempting to summarize Consensus in the language of this template would make it unacceptably large, a link to Consensus should suffice to inform new users of the nature of consensus on Wikipedia. John254 19:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You're missing the point. Proposals are not enacted through supermajority vote either (nor, for that matter "non-simple" or "complex" majority vote). This addition is useful because many novice users treat proposals as motions to be voted on parliamentary-style. ( Radiant ) 20:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree with Radiant here. It doesn't hurt anything for experienced editors, and it might help keep newbies from getting the wrong idea.  Friday (talk) 20:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * As described on extensively wikipedia talk:discuss, don't vote, many policy and other proposals have been enacted through supermajority votes. Here, incidentally, is yet another such proposal: Blocking policy proposal. This template isn't the proper forum for anti-voting polemics. John254 20:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Since you're using it as part of your arguments, I take it then that you support WP:DDV? ( Radiant ) 21:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, we don't need language that says "nothing resembling voting is allowed ever". But IMO it's alright to explain that discussing is preferred over voting.  Friday (talk) 20:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Why does this template need a detailed description of one particular aspect of the policy making process? If we attempted to accurately describe when voting on proposals should, and should not be employed, the template would become unacceptably large. Consequently, the template should merely state that a page is a proposal, allowing a complete description of the process for the enactment of a proposal in policies and guidelines. John254 21:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Because frequently, new users treat a proposal as a "motion" to be voted on, and that is incorrect. You have been very keen in pointing out the exceptions, but the plain fact is that very few policies and guidelines have been voted upon, and neither is that preferable for future proposals. ( Radiant ) 21:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * If there's a conflict between reflecting the subtle understanding that experienced editors have about policy, and keeping newbies off the wrong track, I strongly favor language that keeps the newbies on track. Experienced editors aren't getting their notions of what to do from this template anyway. Friday (talk) 21:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I also agree with Radiant. New users (and even some with a fair amount of experience) commonly believe that proposals are passed via sheer numbers (with no discussion required), and this simply isn't true.  While voting can and does occur, nothing at Wikipedia ever becomes a guideline or policy simply because a certain number or percentage of people vote in favor of it.  Even when a numerical tally plays a role, it must be backed by sound logic.  In other words, we never enact a guideline or policy via discussion-free vote-counting.
 * I understand the objection to Radiant's specific wording, so I've reverted to the wording previously added for this purpose. —David Levy 22:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately "(A majority in favor of a proposal does not constitute consensus.)" is even worse, as it implies that somehow a a majority against does demonstrate consensus. What about, "(which is not achieved through simple majority voting)"? -- nae'blis 20:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've switched to your suggested wording. —David Levy 22:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've moved it to a separate sentence because it's clearer than using parentheses, is that ok with you? I should note that I have met some people who would argue from the present wording that consensus is determined by supermajority voting rather than "simple" majority voting; but changing the wording to account for that would probably make the template overly verbose. ( Radiant ) 10:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The separate sentence is fine. To address the "simple majority"/"supermajority" issue, I've switched to wording that references vote-counting instead of any type of majority.  —David Levy 15:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have a (terrible) parenthetical addiction; thanks (Radiant) for moving it to a new sentence. -- nae'blis 20:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ha, parenthetical. Great word. I'm going to try and work that into conversation somehow. Thanks (sorry for the off-topic comment) .Equazcion (Talk • Contribs) 17:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Icon change
Can we change to icon to something other than a question mark? kilbad (talk) 15:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

 * What do you suggest, and why? —David Levy 15:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Pk
Surachai saiwong — Preceding unsigned comment added by สุรชัย สายวงษิ์ (talk • contribs) 16:06, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2021
edit semi/protected|Template:Proposal.doc|answered:no subst.trim:1 State U .your suggested changes below this line.preferably in a change X to Y format. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined.

Write your request this line and do not remove the tildes and curly brackets below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.119.114.95 (talk) 08:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Template talk:Proposal


text:
Korea General Machinery Trading Corporation

The Korea General Machinery Trading Corporation is a North Korean machine company. It is headquartered in the Tongdaewon District near the capital, Pyongyang.

The company imports steel, chemical raw stock, and machine tools. It produces machine tools, metal parts, gears, electric motors, generators, hydroelectric generators, pumps, valves, mining equipment, rolling stock and other machinery.

Taean Heavy Machine Complex
The Taean Heavy Machine Complex in Tongdaewon produces hydroelectric generators and other thermal power generating equipment, including turbines, motors, transformers, etc. Taean manufactures different sizes classes of hydroelectric equipment in its Tongsuse Class, including a 50,000 kVA generator.

Huichon Machine Tool Factory
Huichon Machine Tool Factory in Huichon is North Korea's leading manufacturer of heavy-duty machine tools for domestic use and for export. The 50-year-old factory group is involved in machine tool production processes including steel-making, casting, processing, assembly, painting and packing. Product is produced on serial basis and small lot basis.

Its output of precision machine tools includes an assortment of spline-grinding machines and industrial lathes.


text:
Talk:Alkaline Trio

Discography
I reckon the Self Titled album and Remains should be in a separate section, 'Compilations' (given they are compilations and not 'proper' albums), and the current Compilations section should be renamed 'Appearances on compilations'. Chipstick 16:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Time to Waste
I stumbled upon this song on the net by chance. I don't know the band, but what are the credits for this song on the album? The melody in the piano introduction is a blatant rip-off of Rachmaninoff's First Suite for 2 pianos, op. 5 (second movement). --JFS 21:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC) Where would one go about hearing a clip of that? (Not the trio song, but the Suite) --WaveTheFinger

The credits are in the Crimson album article 216.8.133.31 (talk) 23:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Side projects
Does anyone think it's important to add a new section about Matt Skiba's side project Patent Pending

Not really, but a small link somewhere in the article would do the trick. - WaveTheFinger

"Patent Pending" is the name of Matt Skiba's side project's first album. The name of the project itself is "Heavens" -Ch33zm0ng3r 06:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Satanism?
While technically accurate, saying Matt practices Satanism isn't ENTIRELY true, as he said in an interview he simply was a member just to freak people out/piss them off. Give me your thoughts, and possibly revise the first paragraph.

I am changing it to "reportedly practice", feel free to change that. I've read the interviews where Matt claims to tell people he's a Satanist just to piss people off, too. IMFromKathlene 02:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.

No offense but if you are a real fan you would know this is a satanist group or rather 2 members out of the 3. Knowing this will make most of the songs make allot of sense. Say in the lyrics he says he has lost his faith. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.17.165 (talk) 07:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Uhhhhh you are completely wrong. Skiba is an atheist. Please do not try to misrepresent facts and then claim we are not "real fans". Skiba bought Grant and himself membership cards as a joke for Christmas (If I can remember) or something like that.--Wick3dd 06:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Elgin Punk
Before these guys were known nationally, they were known in Chicago as the band from Elgin. Maybe they should be described as being from Elgin (where there was a big punk scene) rather than Chicago.
 * Are you talking about Elgin, IL? END

 * Yes this is a relatively true statement, though they were definitely involved in the Chicago punk scene. The band is more than punk rock, they are pop punk and goth, alternative as well, maybe some others, emo fits but doesn't help much. Xsxex 17:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Atom Willard
it says on Atom Willard's stub bio that he was a former member of the alkaline trio, yet there is no mention of him in this article or on the bio on iTunes.. is this a misprint or something like that or was he in the band? someone please clarify Jds10912 01:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Almost 100% certain he's never been in Alkaline Trio. The only ex-members I know of are Rob Doran, Mike Felumlee and Glenn Porter, I've never read a bio of the band that even mentions Atom Willard. Edward Nygma 12:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes he was, not for an album but for some tours he was. Angels and airwaves bio includes Alkaline Trio as one of his previous bands.  You know what, google "Atom Willard alkaline trio."   If that doesnt convince you i give up.
 * Hes in the video for private eye.
 * He was the drummer for Alkaline Trio for a very short time; not enough to even be noted, to my knowledge.

Is Alk3 emo?
If we take the meaning of 'emo' to be a shortened form of 'emotionally driven hardcore punk or emotional hardcore', then Alkaline Trio fits the bill, especially with their older albums. Lachatdelarue (talk) 20:56, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I think emo is one of the worst music terms ever created. Just for prespective though, Rolling Stone has them down as emo Link --Atsquish 15:34, August 2, 2005 (UTC) END

 * Their old songs were dubbed "emo" before that term came to be commercialized and overused. Their newer albums aren't really considered emo. END

 * Urgh. All music is emo.  If it wasn't, what would be the point? END

 * There more of a pop punk band. END

 * No way are Alkaline Trio a pop punk band there is no pop at all. Alkaline trio and heavy punk END

 * 've heard worse "pop punk," but I think there's a stereotype of any punk band that goes into the mainstream must be labeled "pop punk." It's really all a matter of opinion. Frankly, I like who I like and I don't give a rats ass who calls them a sell out. Punk rock is dangerous territory for debates, though, people are always ready to throw down over defense/offense of whatever band. I've seen more passive debates over the State of Israel! Poisonouslizzie 19:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC) <--- P.S. I L-O-V-E that "all music is emo" comment! END

 * AFAIK NOFX, Rancid, Bad Religion are pretty "mainstream" (well... sort of, as a hell a lot of people know em) but I've never heard anyone call them pop punk. Anyway, Alkaline Trio ain't emo. Maybe light punk or something. Nowadays the word "emo" is associated too much with people who cut themselves ("I wish my lawn was emo so it would cut itself" etc) so... coming to my conclusion... IMHO it's the best to keep the "punk rock" there and not scare people away by calling them emo. --HJV 03:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC) END

 * punk rock that talks about death and heartbreak sounds like emo to me Mr.Rotten END

 * They sound nothing like 'emo' bands such as Silverstien, ect, they are straight up pop-punk. END

To the person above me. I think you forget the original meaning of emo. I think it should be listed in the genre under punk, but not in the paragraph. Maybe we could put like Emo(ealrier albums) or something.

All music has some sort of emotion in it, which makes the term "emo" significant to all forms and genres of music. I hate it when people argue about stuff like that. Secondly...just because something is melodic does not mean you have to directly label something "pop-insert genre here". "Pop" was intially just short for popular, as in popular music...Alkaline Trio aren't really that popular yet. If we all must catergarize them....why not just leave it at "melodic punk", and thats it. --69.204.107.78 15:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)katie
 * This is the same as to say 'Indie' isn't a genre, because the namenclature is derived from the designation 'independent'; or 'grunge', as most acts classified in that genre have more in common in the lifestyle and fashin sense than in any musical sense. nevertheless, it has become a valid genre and can be used as classification. That being said, there is nothing about this band that falls under the category of punk rock, other than a loose interpretaion of the fashion. Strictly musically speaking they absolutely do not belong in this genre. As to appropriate placement, I would support emo, or some offshoot thereof.

Alkiline Would Not Be Any Close To Pop Punk Or Any Punk Catagory...Alternative, But Not Punk...Lets Put Them In A New Catagory..."Gloom Rock"...Its Not Emo, And It Fits Their Image.-Rubot...8/10/06"END"

I somewhat agree with Rubot, but only in the sense that their music isn't really punk, and fits more under the Emo category. The problem is that to many people don't really know what Emo is, and assign Pop-Punk (My Chemical Romance, The Used) bands and Screamo/Post-Hardcore (Fugazi, Silverstien, Aiden) bands as Emo. I mostly assign Emo to bands like Sunny Day Real Estate, Texas is the Reason, and, to a lesser degree, Death Cab for Cutie and Jimmy Eat World, based on song content. Basically, if we place Alkaline Trio as Emo, it will mess with the scene kid's MTV-based reality, but its a closer truth than placing them as Punk. - Mitch Strand ... 11/7/06

Alkaline Trio isn´t punk rock at all. They are pop-punk/emo.

Arguing over a band's genre is pointless. See "Removal of Emo" Below - Ch33zm0ng3r 08:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

some modifications
In the discussion of "From Here to Infirmary," I'm certain they made a video for "Private Eye." It was a collection of live videos... I'm almost entirely sure it got play on MTV2. But, I'm not 100 percent sure about that. I'd like to add that, so if anybody is sure of which station played it.. I think that should be added.

Also, I'm moving the line up about the Mike Felumlee / Derek Grant switch into the 2000-2003 category. Grant joined in 2002 and played with Alkaline Trio for the 2002 Warped Tour, and also on the fall tour of that same year.

I saw a live video for Private Eye on Kerrang!, thats what got me into them in the first place. It's on their website if you want to watch it. - Rob 11/04/06

Yes, there's a video for "Private Eye". It's a compilation video, taken from live concerts and the such. I beleive Atom Willard, the current crummer for The Offspring and Angels and Airwaves, is the only drummer in the music video.

Split with Blue Meanies
There's a very rare 7" containing a cover of the Cars song "Bye Bye Love" which isn't mentioned in the article. I can't find suffient information at the moment, but I think it should be mentioned. Aviddd 17:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Removal of 'emo' reference and possible new section?
I've removed the recently added 'emo' reference in the opening line. By saying punk rock and emo band it implies they are two seperate genres, where as they are plainly not. Emo-punk is a sub-genre of punk. Please do not re-add it to the opening paragraph again.

However, it may be interesting to include a short section on the difficulty involved in classifying Alk3. We could include some references. What do people think? Welshy 14:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

My Opininion...New Catagory..."Gloom Rock"...Its Not Emo, Nore Punk.8/12/o6"END"

I like the sound of gloom rock, Someone put it in! :P

Categorizing music is nearly pointless. Modern popular music doesn't usually fit into any one solid and definable genre. There are only several major divisions in music that I feel are relevant: Rock & Roll, Classic Rock, Punk, Techno, Classical(which can be further and accurately described by the time period that it was composed), Big Band, Ska, and arguably a few others. Outside of that you can classify it personally: Rock music that I like, Punk music that I hate, Techno that sucks....etc. At the rate that people are creating categories you will have to soon justify categorizing "Alkaline Trio" as "Gloom Punk with bald bassist and guitarist with 'Song' tattooed across his fingers emo". "Alkaline Trio" has a Rock and Punk type sound, to split hairs past this point will only cause people to argue. - Ch33zm0ng3r 06:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Origins of the Name
I'm always curious as to where a band gets its name. Anyone know where AL3 got thier name, or does Skiba just have an unhealthy obsession with batteries? --DJ Citizen D 13:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

taken from this interview: http://pagirly.blogspot.com/2006/01/little-zine-alkaline-trio-interview.html

matt: we don't have a strong meaning behind our name. me, glenn, & our old bass player, rob, wanted to think of a name that we wouldn't have to deal with the problem of naming a band & then hearing of another band called the same thing & having to rename the band. we wanted to stay a three piece & wanted to stay away from monosyllabic names. like you pick a cool word & you name your band that & six months later, before anyone's ever heard of you, there's like three other bands named that. so, we wanted to be called the "something" trio, so we opened up a dictionary & got to like the third page into "A" in webster's, found alkaline & that pretty much settled it.

I've always assumed that it was a play on "basic trio." I'm so disappointed to learn otherwise. --76.89.238.106 (talk) 00:24, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Crimsons special edition?
I would add the Crimson two disc special edition to the discography but don't have the time to learn all the formatting on here yet. I know the special edition was released in Dec 2005 with a colored cover the same as the b&w with the original crimson release. The new release contains a bonus disc with 10 demos, 4 acoustic songs and 2 music videos. I saw the info about this in the one section of history and such, but thought the photo etc should be added to studio releases Sooo anyone who knows how to best add this info please do :) - Polyphonickat

p.s. I added The Rocky Horror Punk Show comp Alkaline appeared on, they have been on numerous other comps including Another Year on the Streets (multiple volumes) and the Mailorder series (Mailorder for masses, Mailorder is still fun etc).

Derek Grant as vocals
Derek's bio says he'll do vocals with Matt and Dan as well as drumming. I've added that on to the Alkaline Trio page. Feel free to comment and or remove it if you will.

Satanist?
Yeah is there a source for this? Jacknife737 15:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure non of the members are straight up Satanists either. I believe they are atheist with a devious twist...which comes out in there music. Sometimes they refer to themselves as Satanists just for the shock value.--69.204.107.78 15:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)katie

matt skiba has openly admitted to being a member of the church of satan, not satanists as such more an alternate lifestyle. there is also word of derek being involved with c.o.s. dans religious status is unknown Raycore (talk) 12:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Remains B-Sides album
Should this go under studio albums or compilations? Zeropunk16 05:45, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

i changed the heading for that section to "full length" so now it fits

Vandalism check
Can someone familiar with the band please confirm this edit and this edit? A user made these changes in amongst some junk changes, but I can't tell if these changes are legit or not. Chovain 03:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that looks about right, except for a small grammar and editting error. --Richardstone15 08:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

If you count alcohol and tobacco from their Asian Man days (their greatest), yeah I guess so. However, on songs like "Continental", there's an obvious reference to heroin. Blashpemy, couple songs do have some elements, (like "All on Black"), but there is too few songs to really generalize. I'd keep it the way it was. -- Mynabull 14:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, there's also a song called My Little Needle, which I'm positive is a reference to some drug.

My little needle isnt really about drugs, its more a metaphore for finding your love in a crowd of people, get it? needle in a hay stack

Thanks to whoever took out the obvious spamming by someone who obviously hates the band that was just underneath the introduction. Primal14 05:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)primal14

I'm trying to figure out the connections to Angels and Airwaves, Saves the Day, and The Offspring. From what I can see, all those bands play guitars, and that's about the only connection. Could someone enlighten me? If not I'm going to remove those bands from the associated acts list. thryllkill (talk) 13:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

This might be a bit late to be useful, but they have performed in Saint Louis on several occasions with those bands at what is known as Pointfest 4.245.83.67 (talk) 12:44, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Halloween EP?
I became interested in Alkaline Trio from a friend. He gave his mp3 collection. In this collection was an album labeled as Alkaline Trio - Halloween [EP]. I couldn't find anything of this anywhere except this one place that lists lyrics for two of the three songs supposedly on this album. The three songs on the album that I have are 1. Halloween 2. Children in heat 3. Wait for the blackout (BBC session) If anyone has more knowledge on this I'd appreciate some input or research, I can't find much more than the metro DVD. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AudioStatic82 (talk • contribs) 05:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

---The Halloween EP was given out the night the DVD was filmed. You can find it by signing up for the Blood Pact (Fan Club...www.blood-pact.com also much more stuff there), or by looking for in on EBay. Be Warned though, it is a very rare vinyl and will cost you a bunch. You'd prolly be better of joing the BP.

Genre Change
The band was listed as punk rock. If you are familiar with the punk rock genre, it is clear that Alkaline Trio is not punk rock, and any influence the punk movement had on the band is minimal. The closest classification that I could determine was Post Punk, a genre that emulates punk's general formula but is marked by slower tempos and softer spoken vocals. CDDB also lists Alkaline Trio as post punk. Solutus 06:13, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * See the comment further back, posted 6 February 2007 by Ch33zm0ng3r. I agree with the prediction: "Alkaline Trio has a Rock and Punk type sound, to split hairs past this point will only cause people to argue."  There have been so many edits of the genre that we may need a dispute resolution to have a discussion here to try to reach consensus; see discussion below. --Paul Erik 21:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The Alkaline Trio is not post-punk. They are not pure punk either. Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds is an example of post punk. Give it a listen and tell me you still think that.--Wick3dd 20:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Why is the Trio not playing the Chicago Warped Tour date this year on July 28th?
You definitely have to play hometown. Instead, they join the tour on the 31st in Milwaukee. Unless they are going to play a special show in Chicago instead of doing Warped on that date, they should play. --Senita Fetibegovic 21:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia talk pages are not discussion forums, thank you.  Darth griz 98 03:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Genre.
Look, guys, ffs, will you discuss the Genre here and stop just editing the info box? Its such a pointless edit and its all that happens to the artical, just figure it out here and lets get some proper editing done, I'm not a massive fav but I'll veture the opening of the debate: I prepose Alt-Rock. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ferdiaob (talk • contribs).

 * While I have no problems with discussing the genre, any genre that goes onto that page must be cited, so I suggest going to articles outside of Wikipedia and looking for what they are stated to be.  Darth  griz 98 16:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * The genre doesnt bother me either way, I'm just tired of seeing one-word-edits. --Ferdia O'Brien 18:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * And again we have an example of a one word edit. If this keeps up I'm removing the reference and I will keep doing so until a decision is reached HERE on what Genre they are.--Ferdia O'Brien 23:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

As to the question of genre, here's my review of sources I could think of. I will leave it to others to figure out the implications for the genre designation here. --Paul Erik 03:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Artist Direct: punk
 * iTunes: included in "Emo iTunes Essentials" (the songs Message from Kathlene, Rooftops, Time to Waste)
 * Rhapsody: This Chicago band owes more to the shifting rhythms, undulating crunchy guitars and sung/shouted vocals of emo than to influences of hardcore punk
 * Aversion: modern-day punk, indie rock
 * All Music Guide: emotion-fueled, angst-ridden, dark pop-punk (bio) Smart, bright, punk-derived pop (crimson review)
 * Metacritic music: rock, alternative
 * Stylus (Crimson review): They are the stand-outs of a genre that two years ago I wanted to name “Margeracore” as an industry standard. It’s a genre where the pop sensibilities of the chart friendliest side of emo get mixed in with Vans-sporting sk8 rock, and so you have the distillation of black nail-varnished teenage guitar-me-do in 2005. Except Alkaline Trio aren’t chasing any zeitgeists here: they’ve been standing in this place since 1997. They’ve just been waiting for the rest of the world to catch up with them.
 * Lost at Sea: pop-punk (review of Maybe I'll Catch Fire) 4-chord evil punk rock Chicago gone West sounds (review of Good Mourning)
 * PopMatters: horror punk (review of Crimson)
 * The A.V. Club: pop-punk (Crimson review)
 * Jam!: pop-punk (Good Mourning review)
 * NME: Skate-punk, Thrashcore (Private Eye review) Punk, rock (From Here to Infirmary review)
 * Piero Scaruffi: punk (earlier albums) punk-pop (Crimson)
 * Alkaline Trio on MySpace: Punk
 * This is why it's so hard to call a band one genre when they have changed genres or have a lot, I'm at a loss for what needs done. The only thing I can think of is try to find something like rolling stone or aol music that has their genre.   Darth  griz 98 02:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

 * AOL: "emo, punk-pop, punk revival"
 * Rolling Stone: "Alkaline Trio mixed up classic punk and classic noir" (on Good Mourning), but evolving into "delivering action-packed guitar grooves and hooky, harmonized choruses" (on Crimson) --Paul Erik 03:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, it appears that they are some kind of punk at least. From there I guess we need to make a consensus and decide which source is best.  Darth  griz 98 03:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I think that punk rock should definitely be mentioned, because punk-pop and punk revival are sub genres of punk, so they can be covered under the punk rock genre. They same goes for horror punk and skate punk I also think that alt rock should be included as that is a separate genre of music. I think that emo could also be included if you provide the all music guide as a source. DavidJJJ 20:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

On their MySpace page, the band (or their label and publicists) describe its genre as punk. I think enough other sources have also used that term, for us to give them the benefit of the doubt and keep the article saying "punk rock" as it does currently (and just use the one term there to keep things simple). My reading of the sources is that critics are increasingly using the term pop-punk to describe their more recent work, especially with Crimson. So I think it is fair to have "pop-punk" in the infobox, as it also currently does. Adding extra genres in the infobox does not take away from the flow of the article. --Paul Erik 17:30, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

 * "Alternative rock" is not a good way of describing Alkaline Trio. Alkaline Trio has always been a punk band, it's how they describe themselves on their MySpace page, whether it's pop-punk or emo-punk, it's not "alternative rock" (ie Garbage, Weezer, Radiohead, etc) Furthermore, they have always been on punk labels: Johan's Face, Asian Man, and Vagrant.  They tour with 90% punk bands, they sing songs about punk subjects like poverty, drug use, skateboarding, cops, etc.  They also mostly cover songs by other punk bands (Misfits, Smoking Popes, One Man Army, Hot Water Music).  They have an occasional song that doesn't completely fit the "punk" formula, but there is no doubt they are a punk band.  They are also members of punkvoter.com.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.171.91 (talk) 05:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Themes, ect.
I think it should be mentioned (possibly in the first paragraph) that a lot of Alk3 songs mention vampires, since this is defiantly a predominant them e in their music. 24.172.145.199 20:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)kbernard2010, may 8th 2007

Kings Deeds and Evil Seeds
sorry guys im not that much in the know on this band. Found that "stub" via a vandalism bot talk page. apparently the entire thing is fake (although it also shows up in list of alkaline trio albums page as well). and it had been blanked (instead of deleted) by an unregistered user which the bot undid. the unregistered user claimed 'vandalism due to it be fiction' on the bots talk page (which is not a valid defense per se but....

i was going to request speedy deletion due to not finding ANY info on the "album" anywhere on the web (had just 3 total hits, one the wiki piece, one not helpful and one a disscussion thread about the wiki entry). this is the discussion thread http://www.alkalinetrio.org/alkboard/index.php?PHPSESSID=88bd5c2bd6dd06d16f860460068ddb21&topic=2774.0

that thread seems to make it fairly clear the creation and promotion of the "kings deed..." wiki entry is bogus and vadalism. [possibly a bootleg or just 100% fake]. Hopefully someone here will pick up the torch and make corretions i ASSUME are needed with a better understanding of the history of those disputed songs and a certainty that nonexistant piece of work is really vaporware. thanks for your time/help Childhoodtrauma 01:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Heather Gabel
Should Heather Gabel get her own page instead of being a sub-section for Alkaline Trio? Her work as an artist in her own right would seem to more than justify it. --Rmwhittaker101 (talk) 05:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Elgin, Not McHenry
As stated above, the band is from Elgin, Illinois, not McHenry, Illinois...I might sound picky since McHenry is so close, but a bit more accuracy is never a bad thing. 4.245.83.67 (talk) 12:36, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Time To Waste, Burn, All On Black and Help Me genres
Well, I think that at least this musics are NOT punk. Time To Waste is Alternative Rock-directioned, with a riff that remains to Alternative Metal. Burn it's Alternative Rock. All On Black it's a kind of Horror Punk, or Gothic Rock. And Help Me it's Pop Punk. I don't see "Punk Rock" in a lot of other musics from them, and i'm saying that musics because are singles and the "genre" can be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sergiohsilva (talk • contribs) 23:40, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

 * This is all your own opinion, and thus original research. Information in Wikipedia articles is to be based on "reliable, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", not on editors' opinions. Please stop changing genres to suit your own point of view and without citing any sources to back up your changes. --IllaZilla (talk) 23:55, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Fine, but based on what you to say that these songs are purely "punk rock"? And why do you edit what I had left in the articles of songs like "All On Black" and "Stupid Kid" is about Matt being the lead singer and Dan being the background vocalist? This is not opinion, just listen to music that you can see. And I wanted to leave that to not let people who do not know the band or the music confused (as I at first wanted to know some music that Dan sang, and all that I would appear that the two sang. And lastly, why edit what I put on Dan being the lead singer in tracks X of an album and Matt being the lead singer on tracks Y? This appears in the page of the album Good Mourning, why not the others? Grateful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sergiohsilva (talk • contribs) 02:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

 * It shouldn't. The album notes don't do track-by-track credits, so neither should we. "Just listen for yourself" is original research: you need to cite a source that gives these credits. The infoboxes say "punk rock" because that is the genre that both the band themselves and secondary sources most often associate them with. Regardless of what the genres are, when you decide to change them but don't back up the change by citing a source or even stating a reason in your edit summary, then it's clear you are changing them to suit your own point of view which is not acceptable. --IllaZilla (talk) 22:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

 * "The infoboxes say "punk rock" because that is the genre that both the band themselves and secondary sources most often associate them with.". Okay, I did not say that the band itself is not "punk rock", only these songs. But just because the "band said" doesn't mean we really have to take into account. Linkin Park, for example, says that was never Metal but their first two CDs are purely Nu Metal. And what sources indicate that these songs are just "Punk Rock"? Thanked, and sorry if I seemed coarse and at some point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sergiohsilva (talk • contribs) 22:56, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

 * I didn't just say "the band said", multiple secondary sources give the band's primary genre as punk rock. As it stands these articles are far from complete: they need reliably-sourced sections that discuss the songs' composition, style, and critical reception, including what genres the sources describe them as. But the point is that you're changing the genres based solely on your own analysis and point of view. If you'd like to start expanding the articles with reliably sourced content, be my guest; The infoboxes can then be updated to reflect the genres described by the sources. But unexplained, unsourced, POV-based changes are grounds for an immediate revert, regardless of whether the existing genres are sourced. --IllaZilla (talk) 01:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Slapstick
Hi See the article is locked, can somebody change the slapstick link to the band please, it goes to the comedy atm Also, why has the slapstick family tree page gone, it was a good page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.31.176 (talk) 20:04, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

 * It was deleted by WP:PROD. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Angels & Airwaves?
How is AvA in associated acts? Does it have to do with Matt Skiba's side band The Hell with Atom Willard? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.23.62 (talk) 20:30, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Hmm, they shouldn't be. Atom filled in with the Trio on tour after Mike Felumlee left (you can see Atom in the video for "Private Eye", which is made up of live footage) but was never a "member" of the band, and this predated AvA by several years. The Hell should be listed, as it's a Skiba side project, but AvA shouldn't because that's a 2-degrees-of-separation relationship. I'll remove AvA. --IllaZilla (talk) 08:05, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Damnesia-Compilation or Studio album?
Damnesia is listed as a studio album. I see it as more of a compilation album since it only includes two new tracks (one of the two being written back in the 90's). The music on the album (aside from the two aforementioned tracks) isn't new-just re-recorded in a different manner, thus technically making it a compilation if anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.41.73.116 (talk) 05:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Wrong. Damnesia consists entirely of new recordings of the songs, arranged in semi-acoustic renditions. They are all-new recordings made specifically for Damnesia. The fact that most of them are old songs makes no difference. It does not have to be new material to qualify as a studio album. It is certainly not a compilation album: A compilation album is compiled from previously-existing recordings (which may or may not have been previously released), it does not consists of all new recordings made specifically for that release. --IllaZilla (talk) 05:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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Recent reverts
Why are you restoring incorrect information to the article? The singer is from McHenry, the band is from Chicago. Your edit removed a Rolling Stone reference from the article that confirms this. Just search it on Google. Dartslilly (talk) 06:12, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Let's not put Matt Skiba as a "former band member" until he actually leaves the band, please.
There were several parts in this article which implied that Matt Skiba was a "former band member" and that his tenure with the band ended in 2015. That was the year he joined Blink-182. However, he did not leave Alkaline Trio. In fact, Alkaline Trio recorded an album in 2018 with Skiba, which would not make sense if he had stopped being involved in 2015. Let's please not push the idea that he is no longer a member of Alkaline Trio as of the day he joined Blink. Not only is he still a member, he's still the only original member and the main songwriter. NightmareSnake (talk) 15:36, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Atom
He is from Offspring, Social Distortion, and Against Me!. I believe he will bring good things for the band. 2600:1004:B215:5FBE:4138:8025:DC88:6C89 (talk) 03:19, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alkaline Trio


text:
Matthew 3:16

Matthew 3:16 is the sixteenth verse of the third chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament. Jesus has just been baptized by John the Baptist and the Holy Spirit comes to him like a dove.

Content
In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:
 * And Jesus, when he was baptized, went
 * up straightway out of the water: and,
 * lo, the heavens were opened unto him,
 * and he saw the Spirit of God descending
 * like a dove, and lighting upon him:

The World English Bible translates the passage as:
 * Jesus, when he was baptized, went up
 * directly from the water: and behold,
 * the heavens were opened to him. He
 * saw the Spirit of God descending
 * as a dove, and coming on him.

The 1881 Westcott-Hort Greek text is:
 * βαπτισθεις δε ο ιησους ευθυς ανεβη απο του υδατος
 * και ιδου ηνεωχθησαν οι ουρανοι
 * και ειδεν πνευμα θεου καταβαινον ωσει περιστεραν
 * ερχομενον επ αυτον

For a collection of other versions see BibleHub Matthew 3:16.

Analysis
Gundry notes the emphasis the author of Matthew gives to how quickly Jesus gets out of water of the Jordan. An emphasis not found in Mark or Luke. Gundry believes this is because the baptism would traditionally have been followed by a confessing of sins and the author of Matthew wanted to be clear that Jesus, who had no sins, did not undergo this part of the ritual.

France notes that the "heavens were opened" echoes Ezekiel 1:1. France feels that this might thus represent the return of the gift of prophecy to the earth. Hill notes that some early manuscripts have "opened up to him" rather than just "opened up." This makes the event a more private one, and helps explain why the crowds depicted as watching the baptism in Luke do not become aware of Jesus' status.

The dove imagery in this passage, and in the corresponding verse in Luke, is a well known one. Based on this verse the dove has long been a symbol for the Holy Spirit in Christian art. France notes that the wording in Matthew is vague, the Spirit could be descending in the shape of a dove or it could be descending in the manner of the dove. Luke is explicit that it is in the shape of a dove, and most readers accept this meaning.

This is the only event where the Spirit is described as taking such a form. There was a wide array of symbolism attached to the dove at the time the gospel was written. Albright and Mann note that in Hosea 7:11 and the dove is a symbol for the nation of Israel. Clarke feels that this verse links to both Genesis 1:2, with the image of God hovering over the water, and to where Noah sends a dove out over the water to search for land. Clarke feels the symbolism of the dove was thus one of creation with Jesus' baptism symbolically the rebirth of the world. In the Greco-Roman world the dove was at the time seen as a symbol of lust, as it was the symbol of Aphrodite. It was also a symbol of purity due to its whiteness and the belief that it was without bile.

The spirit "coming on him" may be a reference to a series of prophecies in Isaiah (, 42:1, 61:1) where the spirit is described as being placed on God's chosen one. France notes that this doesn't mean the Holy Spirit has been absent from Jesus beforehand, as Matthew 1 makes clear it has been present since his conception.

Church Fathers' commentary
Ambrose: For, as we have said, when the Saviour was washed, then the water was cleansed for our baptism, that a laver might be ministered to the people who were to come. Moreover, it behoved that in Christ's baptism should be signified those things which the faithful obtain by baptism.

Pseudo-Chrysostom: This action of Christ's has a figurative meaning pertaining to all who were after Him to be baptized; and therefore he says, straightway He ascended, and not simply He ascended, for all who are worthily baptized in Christ, straightway ascend from the water; that is, make progress in virtues, and are carried on towards a heavenly dignity. They who had gone down to the water carnal and sinful sons of Adam, straightway ascend from the water spiritual sons of God. But if some by their own faults make no progress after baptism, what is that to the baptism?

Rabanus Maurus: As by the immersion of His body He dedicated the laver of baptism, He has shown that to us also after baptism received the entrance to heaven is open, and the Holy Spirit is given, as it follows, and the heavens were opened.

Jerome: Not by an actual cleaving of the visible element, but to the spiritual eye, as Ezekiel also in the beginning of his book relates that he saw them.

Pseudo-Chrysostom: For had the actual creation of the heavens been opened, he would not have said were opened to Him, for a physical opening would have been open to all. But some one will say, What, are the heavens then closed to the eye of the Son of God, who even when on earth is present in heaven? But it must be known, that as He was baptized according to the ordinance of humanity that He had taken on Him, so the heavens were opened to His sight as to His human nature, though as to His divine He was in heaven.

Saint Remigius: But was this then the first time that the heavens were opened to Him according to His human nature? The faith of the Church both believes and holds that the heavens were no less open to Him before than after. It is therefore said here, that the heavens were opened, because to all them who are born again the door of the kingdom of heaven is opened.

Glossa Ordinaria: Or, so bright a glory shone round about Christ, that the blue concave seemed to be actually cloven.

Chrysostom: But though you see it not, be not therefore unbelieving, for in the beginnings of spiritual matters sensible visions are always offered, for their sakes who can form no idea of things that have no body; which if they occur not in later times, yet faith may be established by those wonders once wrought.

Saint Remigius: As to all those who by baptism are born again, the door of the kingdom of heaven is opened, so all in baptism receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Augustine: Christ after He had been once born among men, is born a second time in the sacraments, that as we adore Him then born of a pure mother, so we may now receive Him immersed in pure water. His mother brought forth her Son, and is yet virgin; the wave washed Christ, and is holy. Lastly, that Holy Spirit which was present to Him in the womb, now shone round Him in the water, He who then made Mary pure, now sanctifies the waters.

Pseudo-Chrysostom: The Holy Ghost took the likeness of a dove, as being more than other animals susceptible of love. All other forms of righteousness which the servants of God have in truth and verity, the servants of the Devil have in spurious imitation; the love of the Holy Spirit alone an unclean spirit cannot imitate. And the Holy Ghost has therefore reserved to Himself this special manifestation of love, because by no testimony is it so clearly seen where He dwells as by the grace of love.

Rabanus Maurus: Seven excellencies in the baptized are figured by the dove. The dove has her abode near the rivers, that when the hawk is seen, she may dive under water and escape; she chooses the better grains of corn; she feeds the young of other birds; she does not tear with her beak; she lacks a gall; she has her rest in the caverns of the rocks; for her song she has a plaint. Thus the saints dwell beside the streams of Divine Scripture, that they may escape the assaults of the Devil; they choose wholesome doctrine, and not heretical for their food; they nourish by teaching and example, men who have been the children of the Devil, i. e. the imitators; they do not pervert good doctrine by tearing it to pieces as the heretics do; they are without hate irreconcileable; they build their nest in the wounds of Christ's death, which is to them a firm rock, that is their refuge and hope; as others delight in song, so do they in groaning for their sin.

Chrysostom: It is moreover an allusion to ancient history; for in the deluge this creature appeared bearing an olive-branch, and tidings of rest to the world. All which things were a type of things to come. For now also a dove appears pointing out to us our liberator, and for an olive-branch bringing the adoption of the human race.

Jerome: It sate on the head of Jesus, that none might suppose the voice of the Father spoken to John, and not to the Lord.

Textual witnesses
Some early manuscripts containing the text of this verse are:
 * Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 405 (~ 200)
 * Papyrus 101 (3rd century)
 * Codex Vaticanus (~325–350)
 * Codex Sinaiticus (~330–360)
 * Codex Washingtonianus (~400)
 * Codex Bezae (~400)
 * Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (~450)

title: Matthew 3:16


text:
Tomasz Pacyński

Tomasz Pacyński (4 February 1958 – 30 May 2005) was a Polish fantasy and science fiction writer, born in Warsaw. He was one of the creators and, from 2004, the chief editor of Fahrenheit, the first Polish Internet science fiction fanzine. He published short stories in such magazines as Science Fiction, SFera, and Fantasy, and in Internet fanzines such as Fahrenheit, Esensja, Fantazin and Srebrny Glob. He also wrote articles published in SFera and Science Fiction.

He made his debut as a fantasy writer with his 2001 novel Sherwood, based on the Robin Hood legend. He published four novels — the Sherwood fantasy trilogy and Wrzesień (September) — a post-apocalyptic political fiction novel, as well as numerous short stories. His humorous stories about Ded Moroz were published in 2005 in Linia ognia (Line of Fire) collection. Sherwood and Wrzesień received nominations for the Janusz A. Zajdel Award. In the Internet he often used the nickname Pacek. His son, Krzysztof Pacyński, is also a writer.

Sherwood trilogy

 * Sherwood - 3,49 2001, RUNA 2003
 * Maskarada - RUNA 2003
 * Wrota światów. Zła piosenka - RUNA 2004
 * Wrota światów. Garść popiołu - RUNA (not published yet)

Other books

 * Wrzesień - RUNA 2002
 * Linia ognia - Fabryka Słów 2005 (short stories: "Opowieść wigilijna", "Straty uboczne". "Linia ognia", "Łysa Góra", "Skarby pustyni", "Dobre Mzimu", "Ścieżki wiedźm", "Bajki dla dorosłych")
 * Szatański interes - Fabryka Słów 2005
 * Smokobójca - Fabryka Słów 2006

Short stories

 * "Siódmy kot" - "Fahrenheit XVI", 2000
 * "Koral i smok" - "Fahrenheit i Fantazin", 2000
 * "Nagroda" - "Science Fiction" nr 3/2001
 * "Nic osobistego" - "Science Fiction" nr 7/2001
 * "Dziedzictwo" - "Science Fiction" nr 12/2002
 * "Opowieść wigilijna" - Strefa mroku anthology, Bauer 2002, Linia ognia collection, Fabryka Słów 2005
 * "Diabelska alternatywa" - "Fahrenheit" XXII, 2002
 * "Wspomnienie" - "Fahrenheit" XXVIII, 2003
 * "Straty uboczne" - "Fantasy", 2003, Linia ognia collection, Fabryka Słów 2005
 * "Linia ognia" - "SFera" nr 6/2003, 'Linia ognia collection, Fabryka Słów 2005
 * "Łysa Góra" - "Science Fiction" nr 2/2004, Linia ognia collection, Fabryka Słów 2005
 * "Stokrotka na blaszanym dachu" - "Science Fiction" nr 4/2004 (sequel to the novel Wrzesień)
 * "Skarby pustyni" - "Science Fiction" nr 7/2004, Linia ognia collection, Fabryka Słów 2005
 * "Komu wyje pies" - "Science Fiction" nr 12/2004 (prequel to Sherwood trilogy)
 * "Dobre Mzimu" - Linia ognia collection, Fabryka Słów 2005
 * "Ścieżki wiedźm" - Linia ognia collection, Fabryka Słów 2005
 * "Bajki dla dorosłych" - Linia ognia collection, Fabryka Słów 2005

title: Tomasz Pacyński


text:
Minerva (QDOS reimplementation)

Minerva is a reimplementation of Sinclair QDOS, the built-in operating system of the Sinclair QL line of personal computers. Written by Laurence Reeves in England, Minerva incorporates many bug fixes and enhancements to both QDOS and the SuperBASIC programming language. Later versions also provide the ability to multi-task several instances of the SuperBASIC interpreter, something not supported by QDOS.

Minerva was distributed as a ROM chip on a daughterboard which replaces the QL's original ROM chips. A Minerva Mk. II daughterboard also incorporates an I²C interface and non-volatile real-time clock. As of version 1.89, the Minerva source code is licensed under the GNU General Public License.

Other reimplementations of QDOS include SMS2 and SMSQ/E.

title: Minerva (QDOS reimplementation)


text:
Takanohana Kenshi

Takanohana Kenshi 貴ノ花 健士 (born Hanada Mitsuru; February 19, 1950 – May 30, 2005) was a sumo wrestler from Hirosaki, Aomori, Japan. His highest rank was ōzeki, which he held for fifty tournaments. As an active rikishi he was extremely popular and was nicknamed the "Prince of Sumo" due to his good looks and relatively slim build. He was the father of Wakanohana Masaru and Takanohana Kōji, and as head of the Futagoyama stable coached both of them to the yokozuna rank.

Career
He had been a champion swimmer while at school, but did not think he could make a living out of it. He was determined to join professional sumo, in spite of some opposition from his family, who had wanted him to continue swimming (he was considered a possibility to make the team for the 1968 Summer Olympics in Mexico City).

He began his career in the spring of 1965, joining Futagoyama stable which had been set up his elder brother, former yokozuna Wakanohana Kanji I, three years previously. He initially fought under his own surname of Hanada. He reached the top makuuchi division in November 1968 at the age of just 18, the youngest ever at the time (the record is now held by his son Takanohana). He weighed barely 100 kg, and would remain one of the lightest men in the top division for the rest of his career. He adopted the shikona of Takanohana in 1969. He was the last man to beat yokozuna Taihō, in May 1971. As he rose up the rankings he collected nine special prizes, including four prestigious ginō-shō, or Technique Awards.

After finishing as runner-up in consecutive tournaments in May and July 1972 he reached sumo's second highest rank of ōzeki in November 1972. He was promoted at the same time as his friend and rival Wajima, who quickly went on to be promoted to yokozuna. Takanohana's progress was slower, but he did win two top division tournament (or honbasho) championships in March and September 1975, each time delighting the crowds by defeating the giant yokozuna Kitanoumi in a playoff. He and Wakanohana were the first brothers ever to each win a top division tournament title. He was also runner-up in the January and March 1977 tournaments. However he was ultimately unable to defeat Kitanoumi or Wajima on a regular basis, and was hampered by his inability to put on weight, and so never made the yokozuna rank. Nevertheless, he was an  ōzeki for fifty tournaments, corresponding to over eight years in the rank. This was a record until July 2007 when it was broken by Chiyotaikai. He was a bigger crowd attraction than some yokozuna.

By the early 1980s he was finding it harder to hold onto his rank, and had been overtaken by his stablemate Wakanohana Kanji II, and other younger wrestlers. One of his final bouts was a memorable clash in September 1980 with Hawaiian born Takamiyama, who was nearly twice his weight and like Takanohana, extremely popular with the Japanese public. Takanohana looked to have won the match with an underarm throw, only for the judges to reverse the referee's decision and rule that the tip of Takanohana's topknot or ōichōmage had brushed the surface of the dohyō ahead of his opponent.

After losing to the rising star Chiyonofuji twice in a row in September and November 1980, he decided the time was right to retire. The two were often compared, and Takanohana had been something of a mentor to Chiyonofuji, advising him to give up smoking to help increase his weight, something that Takanohana himself had never been able to manage.

After retirement
After retiring from sumo in January 1981, he took the name Fujishima and established the Fujishima stable in 1982, which grew to be one of the most powerful in terms of top makuuchi ranked wrestlers. When his elder brother retired as a stablemaster in 1993 he purchased the Futagoyama toshiyori-kabu or elder stock, with the help of 300 million yen from his koenkai, or network of supporters. The two stables merged, and the newly renamed "Futagoyama stable" had one quarter of all the top ranked rikishi in it at one point, including two yokozuna, an ōzeki and many others regularly in the junior san'yaku ranks. During this time it was undoubtedly the most powerful stable the sumo world has seen in the postwar period. He oversaw the promotion of both of his sons to yokozuna, the first time ever that two siblings have held sumo's highest rank.

He was married in 1970 to a former actress and beauty queen, Fujita Noriko, who was once "Miss Ōita Prefecture". They were divorced in 2001.

His health began to decline in 2003, and he withdrew from his duties in the Sumo Association. He passed on control of Futagoyama stable to his son Takanohana in January 2004, and made his last public appearance in January 2005 at the retirement ceremony of one of his former wrestlers, Takanonami.

Death
In February 2005, his son publicly announced that his father was struggling with mouth cancer (he had been a heavy smoker of Mild Seven cigarettes for most of his life). He underwent extensive treatment, but no recovery was possible, and on 30 May 2005, he succumbed to the disease at the age of 55. There was an acrimonious battle between Takanohana's sons over who should be head mourner at his funeral. More than 1200 attended the event, which was held in Aoyama, Minato, Tokyo. The Sumo Association also held a public funeral in the Ryōgoku Kokugikan on June 13. This was the first time in nine years that a former wrestler had been afforded this honour.

Fighting style
Takanohana's favoured techniques were hidari-yotsu (a right hand outside, left hand inside grip on his opponent's mawashi), tsuridashi (lift out) and uwatenage (overarm throw). He was also noted for his ability to spin at the edge of the ring and turn the tables on his opponent with the utchari throw.

title: Takanohana Kenshi


text:
Talk:Nels Stewart

Hall of Fame
Sorry, I'm not very good in English, I'm more on wiki in french. The subject is that I saw in French that Nels Stewart is an honoured member of the Hall of Fame since 1962 and you in your infobox say 1952. But in the section Playing career you say 1962. If it's in french we have reason you will also have to correct the arrival year in the members of Hall of Fame also, and on the picture. If I'm wrong and it's 1952, can you leave me a message on my talk page in wiki french (page de discussion) to tell me that. You can leave me a message in english. Thanks. --Danielvis08 (talk) 07:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Double checking a couple other sources I have, they say 1962 as well. I think some publications were in error.  Thanks for the alert! Resolute 15:03, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * There is a |newspaper article from 1957 upon his death that says he was a member of the hall of fame. I guess we have to investigate. The problem is that the Toronto Hall of Fame did not exist then. But the Kingston organization was doing the inducting. Alaney2k (talk) 17:26, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The IIHOF didn't induct Stewart.   Ravenswing   18:18, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The Toronto Hall of Fame building didn't, but the Hall itself did. And hmm.  Now I'm definitely all confused. Resolute 02:59, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Coleman says 1962. The NHL Media Guide says 1962.  McFarlane's 50 Years Of Hockey says 1952.  The HHOF website (which, alas, has a lot of errors) says 1962.  I'd say 1962 has the preponderance of sources.   Ravenswing   03:59, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I guess we have to write to those people. I can write to the NHL Media Guide people, if it is not already corrected. Alaney2k (talk) 18:49, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Don't you think that the ones who wrote 1952 may have confused that year when they read that Maurice Richard broke the record of 324 goals until then held by Nels Stewart. The year the 'Rocket' broke that record is...1952. If someone was distracted by that and made the error, others may have re-take this on and on. No? Just a supposition. And I corrected 18 others players that the year written was 1963 and it is 1962 in hhof.com. If you want to undo my contributions you can do it if you think that hhof.com is wrong. Thanks. --Danielvis08 (talk) 06:37, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Now I have read something and I think it is 1952. In the article that follow it is said 1962, 5 years after his death (1957). But if you read the comment in the bottom of the article dy the reader 'Derek', his comment is very long and seems 'sourced' or deep like if he had a book of him. And at his last paragraph he quote a text that Stewart was inducted in 1952 and if you read it it, it's like the present in 1952. Now at 50... and we know he is born in about 1921. What do you think? http://montrealmaroons.blogspot.ca/2008/03/nels-stewart.html. --Danielvis08 (talk) 07:34, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, 'Now 50...' and we know he is born in 1902. Then 1902 + 50 = 1952 the time of the article. --Danielvis08 (talk) 07:38, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

The 'Honoured Members' book of the HHOF, which is definitive, lists the date of induction as August 19, 1952 for Nels Stewart, on page 23. I have updated the article and the HHOF list article. Alaney2k (talk) 17:35, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
 * You can also see this link on Google Newspapers August 19, 1952 Montreal Gazette Alaney2k (talk) 17:38, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

 * I've done a search of newspapers.com, which specializes in older papers, and I've got a positive on 1952 from Elmer Ferguson's syndicated column (Lethbridge Herald, 11/3/52), from the Troy Record (8/20/52). Oddly enough, the International Hockey Hall of Fame's website lists the other five players inducted in 1952 but NOT Stewart.   Ravenswing   21:58, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Nels Stewart


text:
Mount Vernon West station

Mount Vernon West station is a commuter rail stop on the Metro-North Railroad's Harlem Line, located in Mount Vernon, New York. Train 352 from Grand Central Terminal terminates here in the PM Rush.

History
The Mount Vernon West station was originally built in the early 1840s by the New York and Harlem Railroad along the median of what is today MacQuestor Parkway just south of Mount Vernon Avenue. The line was electrified and realigned in southern Mount Vernon by the New York Central and Hudson River Railroad and commissioned the architectural firm of Warren and Wetmore to build a new station along the realigned segment in 1914, although the bridge over Mount Vernon Avenue was built in 1910. As with most NYCRR stations in Westchester County, the station became a Penn Central station once the NYC & Pennsylvania Railroads merged in 1968, and eventually became part of the MTA's Metro-North Railroad.

Station layout
The station has two slightly offset high-level island platforms, each 12 cars long. Its ticket office and waiting area are at the bottom level of the Bank of New York building on Mount Vernon Avenue.

As of August 2006, daily commuter ridership was 1,172 and there are 221 parking spots. The station house which is addressed at 156 South West Street and still bears the name New York Central Railroad on its façade, is used primarily for retail, and tickets can be purchased from beneath the platforms.

title: Mount Vernon West station


text:
Ferdinand Brock Tupper

Ferdinand Brock Tupper (1795 – 1874), was one of the leading historians of the Channel Islands.

Life
Brock Tupper was born in Guernsey in 1795 to parents John Elisha Tupper (shipowner and merchant from Les Cotils and Carrefour in Guernsey) and Elizabeth Brock (1767–1847), sister of Sir Isaac Brock.

In 1845, Brock Tupper published The Life and Correspondence of Sir Isaac Brock, KB, which contains a wealth of information on General Brock and the War of 1812. After a near-mutiny at Fort George, Ontario, it was Tupper who reported by letter on the courts-martial (and subsequent executions of several) of the accused to Brock, and evidently corresponded with the General until the latter's death at the Battle of Queenston Heights.

Brock Tupper went on to publish Chronicles of Castle Cornet with details of its nine years siege during the civil wars, and frequent notices of the Channel Islands in 1851 and History of Guernsey and its Bailiwick; with occasional notices of Jersey in 1854. The latter remained the definitive reference work on the history of Guernsey until the publication of History of the Bailiwick of Guernsey by James Marr in 1982.

Brock Tupper married Mary Ann Herbert, and they had two daughters, Henrietta and Emily.

He died in 1874 leaving his elder daughter, Henrietta, as his literary executrix.

According to Henry Nicholas Paint, Point Tupper, Nova Scotia is named after Brock Tupper.

title: Ferdinand Brock Tupper


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cooperative Web Services

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. Mackensen (talk) 23:18, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cooperative Web Services
An article about a protocol implementation that hasn't been released yet. Also, the fact that it has been written by the creator of the thing and his explicit saying that it is his thesis makes me think about vanity. Sarg 20:54, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, agreed - the fact he links to his own user page suggests vanity. It's self-promotion, and (certainly at present) an unnotable technology. UkPaolo 21:11, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Among many other things it is not, Wikipedia is not the IETF. Isaac R 00:08, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep (I'm the author of the page) Hi all, I'm a newcomer to wikipedia editing, I've read the guide for votes for deletion and I would like to enter into the discussion. Sarg said that the subject of the article is a "protocol implementation that hasn't been released yet". I think it isn't right. CooWS is an implementation of an agent based model. CooWS is an application framework. It doesn't specify any new protocol (even if it uses a lot of common standards among web services world). And it's false that CooWS hasn't been released yet. Even if there isn't any "stable" release, from the project homepage the beta build can be downloaded and tested. The code is 90% mature and the first stable build will be released in the next months. (I'm currently writing the docs and I've thougth that my contribution to wikipedia at this stage would have been less time consuming). Finally, on the last Sarg's comment, yes the application is written by the author's page but the explicit cite on my thesis would have been the start for an "history/origins section". UKPaolo says that the technology is "unnotable". The main subjects of this work are Web Services, agents software and semantic web. I think that, at present, all these technologies are receiving a big attention from the academic and industry world. I think Isaac R makes the same misunderstanding of Sarg. Wikipedia is not IETF, this is right, like CooWS is not a proposal for a new standard. Thanks for your time spending. Luigi Bozzo 10:28, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi Luigi, thanks for your detailed comments. Sorry about the confusion about the use of the word "protocol" (never use protocol when it's 2 o'clock on the morning...). However, I stand by my points about notability. It is clear that agent based models are notable, as well as many of the technologies mentioned. That's why I haven't nominated agent based model or Java programming language for deletion. However, your project is not known enough / used by enough people / notable. It might be in the future, but it is my opinion that this isn't the case now. Sarg 14:28, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Sarg, I'm afraid, Luigi, though many thanks for posting your comments. I still consider the page to be self-promotion, however, surely any true encyclopedic article wouldn't include linking to your userpage. That appears to be vanity. As Sarg said, for the time being your project is simply not sufficiently widely used to be considered notable. I consider it's entry self promotion, and stick with my delete vote. UkPaolo 16:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete for the reasons given above. In general, software referenced only on the creator's web pages is not notable.  As a bare minimum, it should be discussed by someone other than the person or group that wrote it and is promoting it.  No evidence that this has generated much interest yet.  Quale 18:50, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy Delete (I'm the author of the page!!!!) Thank you guys! I've learned something new about wikipedia. Now I can understand. My page was very_very_very off topic for an encyclopedic article. Please remove immediately the page (and the image that I've uploaded!!!). Luigi Bozzo 08:13, 01 June 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
User talk:Kount

Welcome!

Please join us for the next Bootcamp every night at midnight EST (2100 PST, 0500 UTC) to learn the ropes, or leave a message on our talk pages around that time for on-wiki help.

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia, ! I hope you like the place and decide to keep contributing. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
 * How to edit a page
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question at the village pump or feel free to ask me on my Talk page. One more quick tip: to sign your name on a Talk page like I did below, the easiest way is just to type four tildes (~~~~). To customize your signature, look here. And remember:Be Bold!
 * — Asbestos | Talk  20:55, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kount