text:
User talk:CarolGray

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! -- Longhair | Talk 11:47, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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Orpington railway station
Thanks for your note, Carol. I might have quite good knowledge of stations because of a large reference library of my own, but, although I live quite near Ordington (and know the station), there is always truly local knowledge which will enhance any article. I would suggest that your sentence is tacked on the end of the first paragraph since that is all about the station, and will help to make the article less "bitty" however. As for the Cannon Street trains, then by all means add them if they run all day. Trains from my own local station only run there at peak times. That could be added to the list of places trains go to - ie Cannon Street (peak times only) perhaps? You may well get hooked on Wiki if you're not careful!!! Peter Shearan 06:10, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hello
I've come across your name on the Vehicle-to-grid page where you correctly corrected "complementary" and "intermittent" to their correct spellings. However, it's habit of mine to see what smart people like you are into, and I went to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/CarolGray to see what else you're interested in, to see if I can find some topics I'd be interested in too, to add to my watchlist. I've noticed that in a few cases you corrected the phrase "under the circumstances" to "in the circumstances." I'd like to tell you that in US English I've constantly heard the phrase "under the circumstances," and it sounds very right to my ears. Perhaps my midwestern English as a second language English isn't as proper as your native Southeastern London one, but I thought I'd mention it, so perhaps next time you see the "under the circumstances" phrase, you may or may not want to just let it go, instead of getting a sudden urge to do the right thing, and correct it. Peace. :)

The original meaning of "circumstance" is "around where you are standing", hence, strictly speaking, you can't be under a circumstance. However, I've discovered that American articles use "under the circumstances" so frequently that it must be the norm over there. I'll go away and do something else. CarolGray 17:14, 8 November 2005 (UTC) No, no, don't go away, please, Wikipedia is fun, and I too like seeing things spelled correctly! Sillybilly 13:08, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Waterloo
Hello Carol. Thanks for your message. I'd recommend directing or redirecting to Lambeth (the place rather than the borough). Waterloo as a district is a bit of a fiction but nonetheless it is in common parlance as a place so deserves a mention but probably not a full article. Mrsteviec 12:04, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar

Keep up the good work! Gaius Cornelius 14:40, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Yep! Good job on the different whiskies! --Pmkpmk 11:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Excessive detail.
Hi Carol. I am happy to see that there is someone going through my work checking spellings, grammar and tidying up my sentences, as being an engineer these are not my strong points. However I would prefer it if you didn't remove facts I have written because you belive it is excessive. In my experience an encyclopedia should contain as much information as possible, and is bulit around excessive detail. When a person looks up Orpington I believe that that person has done so to find out as much information about it's history and current status as possible, therefore there is no such thing as being excessive when it comes to information. Arsenal mjh 23/01/05 10:30 am (UTC).

Whisky Linkspam
Hi Carol, maybe you want to involve yourself here User_talk:Jmputz. Thanks! --Pmkpmk 13:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Orpington
Hi Carol. I'm glad to see you are also editing Orpington. It is now one of the more extensive suburban London articles and really is crying out for some fantastic images. I don't suppose you have access to any suitable (copyright free) images? Mrsteviec 11:52, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Thats great. It seemed wrong that we have more images of the chicken than the town. Mrsteviec 16:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Babe Ruth
I'm posting this message on you Talk Page either because you've contributed to the article Babe Ruth, or because you've edited other baseball or sports related articles. I've recently completed a revision of this article at Babe Ruth/rewrite. If you have the time, I'd appreciated it if you'd compare the articles and leave any feedback you might have on the rewrite discussion page. I'd like to reach a consensus before makeing major changes to the main article. Thanks for your help. --djrobgordon 20:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Links in articles

 * Hello. Wikipedia is not supposed to be a collection of links. Only the most relevant links to relevant content should be listed. Links to a variety of clubs, schools and leisure facilities are non-relevant to an encyclopedic article about a place. Besides they are already linked within the article (I would probably say without need there either). The kind of links needed are those that provide similar content to the article title rather than things that are just associated by name. In this case the link to the Bromley Council general page about Orpington is of more value than a link to each place in the town. Have a look at WP:NOT in the links section it will probably explain better than I have here.Mrsteviec 11:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi. I totally agree with your reply. Kind regards. Mrsteviec 16:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

London Buses
Hi. I noticed you edited London Buses routes 1-10 recently. Just to let you know, I'm splitting this page because the article will be too big once complete.

Also, as you live in Orpington, could you tell me what buses run in your area? I live in South-East London, and only know of route 208.

Thanks --sonicKAI 13:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

re: Welland, Peterborough
Thanks for the clarification. I went ahead and removed the links. --Qviri (talk) 19:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

"Avoid redirect" counter to WP:D
Hello CarolGray. Thank-you for your contributions to Wikipedia.

I would like to invite you to look at my comments on Talk:Redding under the topic "Avoid redirect" counter to WP:D.

Thanks. Duckbill 16:12, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello again. Of course most policies can be overridden by a more specific policy, or by a judgement call in certain special circumstances. WP:D lays down one policy, which so far I haven't found a case where there is a reason to go against, but if there are cases where there are reasons to go against, I'd be interested to find out. Thanks, Duckbill 16:52, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Deutsches Schiffahrtsmuseum
Regarding your inquiry about basin vs. dock, I think basin may be more appropriate in that specific article - the ship was in fact kept in an indoor open container for 20 years and has never seen a dock in its modern life. --Doco 04:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Watershed
I'm following up on apparent differences between definitions of "watershed". Could you explain exactly how you use the term, please? To me, "watershed", "drainage basin" and "catchment" are essentially synonymous, although I wouldn't use "watershed" for large basins. Cheers, Daniel Collins 16:11, 18 March 2006 (UTC).

 * Thanks. After leaving the note I started searching. The OED is my first reference when confronted my multiple meanings, and I gathered the duality. I'm a Kiwi, a hydrologist, and have studied in the US for some time. There's a bias there, but I'm not sure how much in which way. I appreciate the duality and am working on amending the watershed page. I will likely be advocating the article explain the etymology of the word with an overview of the alternate meanings, and then point to water divide and drainage basin for a fuller treatment. Cheers, Daniel Collins 18:50, 18 March 2006 (UTC).

 * A follow-up question: How far away from the true ridge does the watershed extend, using your looser definition? Is it the entire hillside entire you enter a channel? Daniel Collins 19:16, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Could you review a draft I wrote, please? Daniel Collins 19:56, 18 March 2006 (UTC).

David Mitchell
David Mitchell (musician) would be perfect. Thanks. Cnwb 21:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Justin Cartwright
Many thanks for improving my Cartwright page. Can you give me some advice on how to ensure the image appears? Sorry, but I'm still feeling my way on Wikipedia...Davidcohen 23:16, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Watershed (again)
Hi Carol,

Just thought I'd let you know I've put in an official request on WP:RM for the Watershed article (now merged with your drainage basin article) to be moved to Drainage basin. The process requires a list of Support or Oppose votes, so if you want to repeat the vote you made at Talk:Drainage basin, you can do so at Talk:Watershed. Cheers — SteveRwanda 10:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Re: Fixing "Sucess" with AWB
Thanks for the encouragement CarolGray! I will make sure to look out for that little word trap, thanks for the heads up! :) JoeSmack Talk 15:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Marlow
Very many thanks for correcting the entry on Tim Janman. Of course Marlow is in Bucks. Don't know what I was thinking about! Sussexman 15:21, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation:List of post towns in the United Kingdom
Perhaps I'll stop working on disambiguating within this page for now as I see you're already doing it. I'm quite new to Wikipedia and have just installed popups. I wish / wonder if there was an even easier way to spot entries in need of DAB'ing. As you know, phrases are blue if they point to a valid link and red if they don't. Perhaps the colour or style scheme needs to be expanded: e.g. green for phrases which point to a valid link which is designed to redirect elsewhere; orange for phrases which point to a DAB page; purple for phrases where someone has tried to put in a link to a more meaningfully titled page but no page currently exists for it, e.g. I thought that Douglas would be better than just Douglas which would point to a DAB page (this example came from another page). Too many colours would not suit all readers because of the frequency of red-green colour blindness but it may be possible to have an option for turning on certain styles of type instead. What do you think? Samantha of Cardyke 12:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * On another matter, I wonder if it would be possible for Wikipedia to list pages with any 'green', 'orange' or 'purple' phrases so readers can take up the task easily? There should be options so people can search for pages in order of when they were first created / last updated, by category, pages on their own Watchlist, etc. Again, what do you think? Samantha of Cardyke 12:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Penwith
Nice going with the Penwith tidying :) - As you can see there is still a lot of work that needs doing on Penwith articles - A couple of us are trying to improve the quality/depth and have recently set up a project to organise things (yes I know the page is a bit of a mess at the moment, and doesn't look very professional!) I don't suppose that you would consider contributing to Penwith more regularly? We could use your skills.  Let me know what you think Mammal4 15:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Orpington Pond CG.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Orpington Pond CG.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then there needs to be an argument why we have the right to use the media on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then it needs to be specified where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the GFDL-self tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, consider reading fair use, and then use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, consider checking that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. - SCEhard T 19:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks - looks perfect now! - SCEhard T 19:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Wilmington
I have changed the order so the three places that were bold are now listed at the top as "cities". Does this meet your needs? I found three bold things in a long list quite distracting. --Scott Davis Talk 23:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Good. It looks quite embarrassing when some little town in the country gets listed first just because Australia is the first significant english-speaking country in the alphabet. I had never heard of any of the Wilmingtons in the United States, so didn't realise that three were large cities. I've never been to those states. Thankyou for your help. --Scott Davis Talk 09:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Wayne Hall
I'm not entirely sure, but I would guess at the Yorkshire club, when you consider the teams he played either side of Hatfield for are from Darlington and York. - Deathrocker 20:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Names and disambigs
Thanks for following up on the AN/I. I was beginning to feel like I was tilting at windmills... -- JHunterJ 20:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Opinion request
When you have a moment, could you look at Tiamat (disambiguation) and Talk:Tiamat (disambiguation)? Much ado over precious little, I admit, but.... thanks. -- JHunterJ 20:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Not on the meaning of the Tiamats, but on the style of entries. Tiamat may refer to:
 * Tiamat, a planet in The Snow Queen (novel)
 * Tiamat, one of the Four Fiends in Final Fantasy
 * Tiamat, a sea monster in Pirates of the Spanish Main
 * Tiamat, a Zerg brood in StarCraft
 * or Tiamat may refer to:
 * The Snow Queen (novel), Tiamat is a fictional planet in Joan D. Vinge’s novels.
 * Four Fiends, one of which is named Tiamat appear in the Final Fantasy games.
 * Pirates of the Spanish Main, Tiamat is the name of a sea monster in the collectible strategy game.
 * StarCraft, Tiamat is one of the Zerg broods in the Blizzard RTS game.
 * (with appropriate italics, etc.). I've since added some pointers in WP:MOSDAB and aligned WP:D with that advice. No heat here (really!), but the participation was rather limited (me and one other editor, along with the merge proposer). -- JHunterJ 12:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Disambiguation Talk Request
This is a form message being sent to all WikiProject Disambiguation participants. I recently left a proposed banner idea on the WikiProject Disambiguation talk page and I would appreciate any input you could provide. Before it can be approved or denied, I would prefer a lot of feedback from multiple participants in the project. So if you have the time please join in the discussion to help improve the WikiProject. Keep up the good work in link repair and thanks for your time. Nehrams2020 21:19, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

J+J's Discos
- Sorry about - I got an edit conflict as I was marking it for db-spam at the same time... Ian Cairns 16:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

User:CarolGray/Tewksbury
That's cool but that both you and my partner are called Carol Gray has slightly disturbed me anyway ;]] Jed keenan 22:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
For your corrections. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ethicalhacker (talk • contribs).

Redirect to Disambiguation template
There is nothing wrong with using that template. The reason why I removed it from those pages was because when you used it on those pages, it was used as R to (disambiguation) page. That template does not exist, and thus showed up as a broken redirect. If you remove the parentheses from around the word disambiguation, I uess it will work. Sorry for the confusion. --Willy No1lakersfan (Talk - Contribs) 12:19, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Benson
Feel free to revert. Just double check the surnames when you do, I edited a few flawed ones. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 19:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for comment on my campaign to become an administrator
Hello CarolGray, I hope that you are having a happy holiay season. I have recently been nominated to become an administrator here on Wikipedia. I am asking that since I have worked with you in the past that you stop by my nomination page and consider entering a vote, hopefully in support of my becoming an administrator.

 * Please feel free to communicate with me on my Talk page at User talk:No1lakersfan if you have any questions or reservations. Best wishes for a safe and happy holiday season. Thanks, --Willy No1lakersfan (Talk - Contribs) 23:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Priestfield tram stop
I'm afraid that most tram stops are merely raised platforms, and hence no (or at least little) different from bus stops. I prod-ed it, but another editor has since AfD. Obviously some people do not agree with you. Since I see very little room for expansion, I though delete was the best option.

I recently prod-ed all the NET stop articles, and all but two were deleted, one now under AfD and looking like being deleted. Sadly, I feel this is how these will go.

I had the same idea with Supertram, and was in the process of creating articles, but was told that these were more appropriate on wikitravel.

 L.J.Skinner WOT?|CONTRIBS 21:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Scarborough
I replied on my talk page before I read the enormous list of dab pages you're following. Thanks. --Scott Davis Talk 12:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Fort William/Spaulding
Fixed the disambiguation issue. FYI the fort william mentioned is what became Ft. Larime in Wyoming. Aboutmovies 22:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Chippenham
Thanks for the fix on the talk page. Yup works fine now!AlanD 22:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

No worries on that, makes sense. Thanks. AlanD 23:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the dab's you've done on the places in surrey pages I've recently worked on :) SuzanneKn 17:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

St. Mary's Studley Royal
Thank you for the link in the Burges article. I didn't know Wikipedia had an entry. I shall now add a little about Burges to it, who sadly isn't mentioned at all. KJP1

St Mary's again
Have rushed of a couple of paragraphs already, not nearly enough for a full article but I can never resist giving Burges a mention. Will return to it. Thanks again.

Disambiguation
Hi, Thanks for the kind word about Saint John. I hope I didn't accidentally remove anything that might have gone in the "See also" section. Some people believe that disambiguation pages should catalog all topics with similar names, for the benefit of readers' undirected exploration (although the MoS confines entries of this type to "See also".) I don't like this idea much, but pages like the previous version of "Saint John" inspire me to implement it, at least a little. --Smack (talk) 01:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Actually, I had a different page in mind when I wrote that. I removed many, many entries from Grünwald (diff).  You see, someone had apparently done some genealogical research. --Smack (talk) 01:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm baffled about what to do with St. Johns. I looked through WP:DAB and WP:MOSDAB and found no guidance. --Smack (talk) 05:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

 * It's not safe to assume that someone who grew up in New York went to the Saint John's University there rather than in Minnesota, although I'd say it's much more likely. In the US, the choice of location for one's schooling can be complicated.  I grew up in the Los Angeles area, and am going to school elsewhere on the West Coast.  As far as I remember, several people from my high-school class went to the East Coast, not necessarily because there are many good schools there, but just to go to the East Coast.  However, probably half of the class stayed in the L.A. area. --Smack (talk) 18:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Saint Mary
Your plan sounds good! Thanks! I just wanted the articles on other similarly named saints to be found easily. Thanks again! --Polylerus 17:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Mount St. Mary's
I noticed you just separated out the three colleges and one university from Mount St. Mary's into Mount Saint Mary's College. There's a lot of disambiguation necessary between schools, universities, seminaries, and colleges, and the original disambig had been working well for almost two years. It looks like you might be working on a larger effort relating to saints... Is there a plan that I'm missing here? Otherwise, I think Mount Saint Mary's College should be reverted to a redirect, and Mount St. Mary's should remain the "disambiguation central" for the related articles. Justen 14:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry for the confusion... By "reverted" I more precisely meant "restored."  I'll make a point to use "restore," instead of "revert" in the future when I mean a mutually-agreed upon change!  In any event, I think the original disambiguation would be best.  I'll work on that.  Justen 22:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

London Rowing Club
Spotted your disambiguation of the link to Henley. I would suggest though that the link is better made to Henley-on-Thames than to Henley Royal Regatta. Remenham Club has permanent buildings and land at Henley and although they are primarily used during the Regatta, that's not their only use; moreover Remenham Club isn't a formal part of the regatta organisation, its an entirely independent institution. James of Putney 17:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Question re edits
Hi,

Can you explain why you've moved all the surnames out from the Holt disambiguation page? I see why you've cleaned it up and removed external links, etc., but as of now there's not even a link to the surname page, which surely a disambiguation page would have, and probably a list of people to whom Holt refers belongs there in the same way as the places and other meanings do.

Thanks, --Daniel11 08:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Delinking dab page
Why? That's what dab pages are for. Guettarda 19:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

 * "I have added a link to the Belmont dab page for Belmont, Port of Spain. I didn't think there was a need for a link in the other direction"...umm, how not? How do you propose finding the pages that linked to that Belmont once the page is created, if you have removed their links to the dab page?  Half the purpose of dab pages is to catch links to pages that don't exist yet.  Guettarda 19:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It's nice to take a less condescending tone when dealing with people. If I didn't think that an article could have been written about the topic, why would I have created all the links to Belmont, Trinidad and Tobago? Hitting people over the head with policy pages is rude - with a newbie, you should explain, not just link. With anyone else, you shouldn't start with the assumption that they are ignorant of policy.

I'm not sure how you came up with 11 articles that include this Belmont - I found 15:
 * 1) Port of Spain
 * 2) List of steelbands
 * 3) Albert Gomes
 * 4) List of schools in Trinidad and Tobago
 * 5) Andy Ganteaume
 * 6) Ellis Achong
 * 7) Laventille
 * 8) List of cities and towns in Trinidad and Tobago
 * 9) Claudia Jones
 * 10) Charlie Davis
 * 11) Ian Bishop
 * 12) Bryan Davis
 * 13) Morvant
 * 14) Ellis Clarke
 * 15) David Rudder

It would have been much simpler to explain what you did when I first asked - that you had pointed the dablink to the Port of Spain article. Simply saying "I have added a link to the Belmont dab page for Belmont, Port of Spain" sounds like you pointed the dablink to Belmont, Port of Spain, not to Port of Spain. Guettarda 15:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I should apologise too - I'm sure my tone was far more curt than it should have been. Sorry. Guettarda 21:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

London Meetup - January 12, 2008
Hi! There's going to be a London Wikipedia Meetup coming Saturday January 12, 2008. If you are interested in coming along take part in the discussion over a Meetup/London7. The discussion is going on until tomorrow evening and the official location and time will be published at the same page late Thursday or early Friday. Hope to see you Saturday, Poeloq (talk) 01:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Invitation to Wikipedia meetup in London

Date: 13:00 onwards, Sunday 10 August 2008

Venue: Penderel's Oak pub, Holborn WC1 map

More information: Meetup/London 12

Hello,

I noticed that you have listed yourself as a Wikipedian in London, so I thought you might like to come to one of our monthly social meetups. The next one is going to be on Sunday 10 August, which might well be rather short notice, but if you can't come this time, we try to have one every second Sunday of the month.

If you haven't been before, these meetups are mainly casual social events for Wikipedia enthusiasts in which we chat about Wikipedia and any other topics we fancy. It's a great way to meet some very keen Wikipedians, but we'd also love for you to come along if you're interested in finding out more about Wikipedia, other Wikimedia projects, or other collaborative wiki projects too.

The location is a pub that is quite quiet and family friendly on a Sunday lunchtime, so hopefully younger Wikipedians will also feel welcome and safe. Alcohol consumption is certainly not required!

Although the meetups are popular, many UK-based editors still don't know about them. It would be great to welcome some fresh faces, so I hope you can come along.

Yours,

James F. (talk) 09:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Please forgive the slightly impersonal mass-invite!

Revision to Sid Meier's Alien Crossfire and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri articles
I noticed that you have revised either Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri or Sid Meier's Alien Crossfire.

I intend to revise those articles following the WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines. There are more details on the discussion pages of those articles. I'd be interested in any comments you have. It would be best if your comments were on the discussion pages of the two articles.

Thank you.

Vyeh (talk) 02:11, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

London Wikimedia Fundraiser
Good evening! This is a friendly message from Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry, inviting you to the London Wikimedia Fundraising party on 19th December 2010, in approximately one week. This party is being held at an artistic London venue with room for approximately 300 people, and is being funded by Ed Saperia, a non-Wikipedian who has a reputation for holding exclusive events all over London. This year, he wants to help Wikipedia, and is subsidising a charity event for us. We're keen to get as many Wikimedians coming as possible, and we already have approximately 200 guests, including members of the press, and some mystery guests! More details can be found at http://ten.wikipedia.org/wiki/London - expect an Eigenharp, a mulled wine hot tub, a free hog roast, a haybale amphitheatre and more. If you're interested in coming - and we'd love to have you - please go to the ten.wikipedia page and follow the link to the Facebook event. Signing up on Facebook will add you to the party guestlist. Entry fee is a heavily subsidised £5 and entry is restricted to over 18s. It promises to be a 10th birthday party to remember! If you have any questions, please email me at chasemewiki at gmail.com.

Hope we'll see you there, (and apologies for the talk page spam) - Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 18:09, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

The Contribution Team cordially invites you to Imperial College London All Hail The Muffin Nor does it taste nice... 15:28, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Lifted (music collective)

The article Lifted (music collective) has been proposed for deletion  because of the following concern:
 * Zero coverage found in reliable sources; does not appear to meet WP:GNG or WP:MUSIC. Considered WP:CSD as well there are some obvious WP:NOTPROMOTION concerns.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.  Gongshow  Talk 18:17, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:01, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:CarolGray


text:
Viviana Gibelli

Viviana Águeda Gibelli Gómez (born 22 December 1965) is a Venezuelan actress, tv host, and beauty pageant titleholder. She participated at Miss Venezuela 1987 obtaining the position of second finalist, she represented Venezuela in the contest: Miss Wonderland 1987 where she was crowned queen of the American continent.

Biography
Gibelli's father is of Brazilian-Italian descent while her mother is of Cuban origin. Gibelli has two brothers and has confessed that she prefers male friendships over female since she grew up playing with her brothers.

In 1987, Gibelli represented Monagas state in the Miss Venezuela national beauty pageant and finished as fourth runner-up. She then started a career as a fashion model.

Gibelli later participated in different types of television shows, beginning with Complicidades, a daytime magazine show geared towards women. Later on, she worked on children's shows and telenovelas. In 2003, Gibelli also filmed several television shows in Costa Rica.

Gibelli has participated in a total of five telenovelas, of which Gata Salvaje (Wild Cat), filmed in 2002, is the only one released internationally. She had big hits in Venezuela with El Pais de las Mujeres (The Country of Women) and Kaina, in which she both played one of the lead female roles. She has also participated in one Venezuelan feature film.

Gibelli is now a fixture of the Venevisión network where she had a talk show called Viviana a la Media Noche (Viviana at Midnight), as well as the Venezuelan television mega-hit La Guerra de Los Sexos (Battle of the Sexes).

Stage

 * El Método Grönholm, Caracas, Venezuela, 15 July to 15 November 2005
 * El Mundo De Oz, Caracas, Venezuela
 * La Bella Durmiente y El Príncipe Valiente, Caracas, Venezuela
 * Hercules, Caracas, Venezuela
 * Hasta Que El Matrimonio Nos Separe, Caracas, Venezuela

Telenovelas

 * Arroz con leche, 2007, Venezuela – Ella misma
 * Gata Salvaje, 2002–2003, United States, Venezuela – Jacqueline Tovar
 * El País de las mujeres, 1998–1999, Venezuela – Pamela Fuentes Gomez
 * Pecado de amor, 1996, Venezuela – Esperanza Hernandez
 * Ka Ina, 1995, Venezuela – Catalina Miranda
 * Por Amarte Tanto, 1992, Venezuela – Laura Velásquez

Movies

 * Ladies Room, 2003 – Cloe

Series

 * Qué Chicas, 1990–1991, Venezuela

Television programs

 * Confidencias con Viviana Gibelli, 2011, Venezuela – host
 * Miss Venezuela, 2010 and 2013 – host
 * Confidencias con... (Segunda Etapa), 2004, Venezuela
 * Súper Sábado Sensacional, 2001–2006, Venezuela
 * La Guerra de los sexos, 2000–2013, Venezuela – host
 * Viviana a la Medianoche, 1999–2001, Venezuela – host
 * Confidencias... (Parte 1), 1997–1998, Venezuela
 * Complicidades, 1988–1991, Venezuela
 * Gala de la Belleza del Miss Venezuela, 1997–2003 and 2006–2009

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Viviana Gibelli


text:
Melodic expectation

In music cognition and musical analysis, the study of melodic expectation considers the engagement of the brain's predictive mechanisms in response to music. For example, if the ascending musical partial octave "do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-..." is heard, listeners familiar with Western music will have a strong expectation to hear or provide one more note, "do", to complete the octave.

Melodic expectation can be considered at the esthesic level, in which case the focus lies on the listener and its response to music. It can be considered at the neutral level, in which case the focus switches to the actual musical content, such as the "printed notes themselves". At the neutral level, the observer may consider logical implications projected onto future elements by past elements or derive statistical observations from information theory.

A multifaceted concept
The notion of melodic expectation has prompted the existence of a corpus of studies in which authors often choose to provide their own terminology in place of using the literature's. This results in an important number of different terms that all point towards the phenomenon of musical expectation:

 * Anticipation
 * Arousal
 * Deduction
 * Directionality
 * Expectancy, expectation, expectedness, and in French attente
 * Facilitation
 * Implication / realization
 * Implication (independent from realization)
 * Induction
 * Inertia
 * Musical force(s)
 * Previsibility, predictability and prediction
 * Resolution
 * Tension / release, tension / relaxation
 * Closure, which may be used as the ending of the expectation process, as a group boundary, or as both simultaneously

Expectation can also be found mentioned in relation to concepts originating from the field of information theory such as entropy. Hybridization of information theory and humanities results in the birth of yet other notions, particularly variations upon the notion of entropy modified for the need of description of musical content.

Consideration of musical expectation can be sorted into four trends.

 * A first trend may include publications written in the 1950s by Meyer, Younblood and Krahenbuehl & Coons that are concerned with objectivization and rationalization of the concepts of arousal, uncertainty, or non-confirmation of a prediction using information theory.
 * A second trend may concern the more recent publications that include a step-by-step music analysis process at the neutral level, such as the generative theory of tonal music and Narmour's Implication-Realization model.
 * A third trend may provide quantitative models based on computer algorithms, such as Margulis' model of melodic expectation or Farbood's model of musical tension.
 * A fourth trend may group generalist theories whose focus lies neither in step-by-step processes nor in quantitative operations, and may include elements pertinent to the esthesic level such as cognition and neurophysiology. This includes Larson's "musical forces" and Huron's theory of general expectation.

Leonard Meyer
Leonard Meyer's Emotion and Meaning in Music is the classic text in music expectation. Meyer's starting point is the belief that the experience of music (as a listener) is derived from one's emotions and feelings about the music, which themselves are a function of relationships within the music itself. Meyer writes that listeners bring with them a vast body of musical experiences that, as one listens to a piece, conditions one's response to that piece as it unfolds. Meyer argued that music's evocative power derives from its capacity to generate, suspend, prolongate, or violate these expectations.

Meyer models listener expectation in two levels. On a perceptual level, Meyer draws on Gestalt psychology to explain how listeners build mental representations of auditory phenomena. Above this raw perceptual level, Meyer argues that learning shapes (and re-shapes) one's expectations over time.

Implication-Realization model
Narmour's (1992) Implication-Realization (I-R) Model is a detailed formalization based on Meyer's work on expectation. A fundamental difference between Narmour's models and most theories of expectation lies in the author's conviction according to which a genuine theory should be formulated in falsifiable terms. According to Narmour, prior knowledge of musical expectation is based too heavily upon percepts, introspection and internalization, which bring insoluble epistemological problems. The theory focuses on how implicative intervals set up expectations for certain realizations to follow. The I-R model includes two primary factors: proximity and direction. Lerdahl extended the system by developing a tonal pitch space and adding a stability factor (based on Lerdahl's prior work) and a mobility factor.

Bimbot and al.'s System & Contrast model
Mainly developed at IRISA since 2011 by Frédéric Bimbot and Emmanuel Deruty, the system & contrast or S&C model of implication    derives from the two fundamental hypotheses underlying the I-R model. It is rooted in Narmour's conviction according to which any model of expectation should be expressed in logical, falsifiable terms. It operates at the neutral level and differs from the I-R model in several regards:

 * while Narmour's two fundamental hypotheses address the relations between three elements, the fundamental hypotheses leading to the S&C model address the relations between four elements. Therefore, it can be considered as more directly suited to the classical sentence and period forms, as well as to popular music forms;
 * while Narmour's I-R model addresses one-dimensional relations, the S&C model includes relations on two potentially independent dimensions;
 * the S&C model may encompass all aspects of the musical language, not only the melodic structure.

Margulis's model of melodic expectation
Margulis's 2005 model further extends the I-R model. First, Margulis added a melodic attraction factor, from some of Lerdahl's work. Second, while the I-R model relies on a single (local) interval to establish an implication (an expectation), Margulis attempts to model intervalic (local) expectation as well as more deeply schematic (global) expectation. For this, Margulis relies on Lerdahl's and Jackendoff's Generative Theory of Tonal Music to provide a time-span reduction. At each hierarchical level (a different time scale) in the reduction, Margulis applies her model. These separate levels of analysis are combined through averaging, with each level weighted according to values derived from the time-span reduction. Finally, Margulis's model is explicit and realizable, and yields quantitative output. The output – melodic expectation at each time instant – is a single function of time.

Margulis's model describes three distinct types of listener reactions, each derived from listener-experienced tension:
 * Surprise-Tension: inversely proportional to degree of expectancy; results in intensity or dynamism.
 * Denial-Tension: proportional to the discrepancy between the expectancy of the most expected event and the expectancy of the actually perceived event; results in desire, drive, will.
 * Expectancy-Tension: proportional to the degree of expectancy of the most expected event (in other words, if the listener had no idea what to expect next, the expectancy-tension would be low); results in strain or yearning.

title: Melodic expectation


text:
User talk:Rampagingcarrot

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! -- Longhair | Talk 11:48, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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Warcraft III
Hello, might I request that you do not create articles on every single spell, character and race in the Warcraft universe please. It's not really encyclopediac. While articles on the the four major races and key characters might be appropriate, and article on Death Knights, for example, is not very encyclopediac. Wikibooks is the appropriate place for game guides - your stuff is much more appropriate there! Talrias (t | e | c) 15:59, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Hello Talrias. I understand that you are trying to prevent unencyclopediac material from Wikipedia, and while I am very new to this community, I am aware of the distinction between strategy guides and encylopedia articles.  It's also possible that in my zeal to share knowledge I may have chosen an inappropriate medium in Wikipedia.  However, as of now I believe that there exists a great deal of material about the Warcraft III community that may be enclycopediac; it certainly does not belong in a game guide.  With these articles I was hoping to chronicle the complexities and intriacies of the competitive aspect of Warcraft III.  In this way I was conciously modeling my articles off of sports and chess articles; I intend to avoid the sort of instruction found in game guides altoghther and instead focus on how the professional players have created the warcraft experience.

 * This said, I am not in an argumentative mood, and if you beleive it is imperative that I stop creating articles I will do so. However, I am keeping track on every article I create, and I would gladly help in deleting them speedily if it becomes clear they should be deleted.  While I would like to have the resources available in Wikipedia to create my articles, I will also consider writing my material offline and then putting that up for discussion later.

 * Anyway I appreciate your concern. I hope to hear a reply from you.  RampagingCarrot 18:20, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Warcraft III strategy
Hi Rampagingcarrot, in reguards to your aricle, I have put it up for article for deletion. Wikipedia isnt really the place for game guides, its not very encyclopedic. But I highly recommend you move the content over to Wikibooks! Thanks - UnlimitedAccess 05:01, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

RfD nomination of Burrow (Warcraft III)
I have nominated for discussion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. Taelus (talk) 00:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Palia (video game)
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title: User talk:Rampagingcarrot


text:
Talk:Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon

Untitled
I disagree. The material should be made consistent, but this should stand as a separate, more detailed article as per Summary style. - Taxman Talk 14:36, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

UV-FL Spectra
Does anyone know where to find the UV-vis and fluorescence spectra online? These would be very useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.247.199.50 (talk) 20:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC) Try looking at OMLC

PAH definition conflict
The Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon is clear in defining that PAH have no hetero atoms and no substituents. NIST's database seems to agree, as it contains only pure H and C compounds, though their information doesn't seem to include an explicit definition. Here's another definition that agrees with that. However, aromatic hydrocarbon and Category:Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons have a looser definition allowing hetero atoms.

Is one definition more correct than the other? And if the definition of a PAH is the strict one, what is a compound that is aromatic and polycyclic, but has hetero atoms and functional groups called? I'm out of my league with regards to chemical knowledge here, and I don't have any authoritative sources to look it up in at the moment. But it is definitely a conflict among our articles that should be fixed. - Taxman Talk 14:34, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

 * Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon are hydrocarbons. Hence, they consist of carbon and hydrogen only. --Itub (talk) 12:35, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Method of carcinogenity
I assume that PAHs are carcinogenic/mutagenic due to their ablility to intercalate DNA. If anyone can confirm a reason for the health effects, it might be good to include it in the article.--24.16.148.75 04:17, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

PAHs are metabolized into a variety of derivative, mostly oxygen-containing ones like hydroxyl, keto, and endo-epoxide versions. These then fit into and bind to DNA, foeming adducts. These change the cell replication.

By the way, the article mentions benzo[a]pyrene as the first known chemical carcinogen. In looking at references, I think that there are differences. B[a]P was the first from coal-tar isolated fractions. The first from a pure, organically synthesized compound was dibenz[a,h]anthracene. Fetz the chemist —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fetz the chemist (talk • contribs) 15:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

PAH can definitely contain heteroatoms or substituents
(PAHs) are chemical compounds that consist of fused aromatic rings and CAN contain heteroatoms or carry substituents.

Example: As we begin to produce Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (less than 15 ppm) in the Americas some of the most difficult to remove sulfur is contained in 4-6 Dimethyl Dibenzothiophene (4-6 DM DBT) or 4-6 DE DBT. These are both substituted and heteroatom containing PAHs. Alkyl substitued PAHs are thought to be more toxic than non-substitued PAHs ref: http://www.uoguelph.ca/cntc/publicat/science_briefs/2003-09-September-CNTC-Science-Brief.pdf —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.251.40.100 (talk • contribs).

 * If the substituent is an alkyl group, it's still a hydrocarbon. I don't see why molecules that contain elements other than hydrogen and carbon should be called hydrocarbons. —Keenan Pepper 22:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

PAH nomenclature and more
Having just looked at this discussion, although I have edited the PAH entry and those of some specific compounds, I will give answers and opinions about the various topics. First, the International Union for Pure and Appied Chemistry (IUPAC) nomenclature rules define a polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon as the core ring structure only. Heteroatom-containing analogues are called polycyclic aromatic compounds, PACs. The "s" is small case for PAHs and PACs according to the guidelines for publication by the American Chemical Society. These are collective plural categories. PAH refers to one compound or is the adjective form, as in a "PAH spectrum". Polycyclic also, according to the IUPAC rules, refers to those of three or more rings, so naphtrhalene is not formally a PAH. An alkyl-substituted PAH is just that, a category in itself, just like a chlorinated PAH. Although an alkyl substituted PAH is a hydrocarbon, it is not formally a PAH. It is an alkyl-substituted PAH since PAH refers only to the multi-ring, fused aromatic core.

The sulfur PACs are commonly abbreviated as S-PACs, so dibenzothiophene - which is one of the compound types in low-sulfur fuels is a S-PAC and not a PAH.

A few minor comments about PAH nomenclature relating to the letters and numbers in the {}. First, they are braces or the square-cornered brackets, not parentheses. Second, numbers are separated by commas - like 1,2,3,4 or 9,10. Letters are not separated by commas if they are refering to continuous faces of the same fused group - like abcd or pqr. If the faces are not contiguous, as in naming two benzo groups on the same core, there are commas separating each group - like a,h or cd,lm.

AS far as mutagenicity/ carcinogenicity (I will use mutagenicity from now on since carcinogenicity is just mutagenicity in a replicated version - a change in the DNA that can be repeated), it is very dependent on structure. The PAH is not itself mutagenic. It is the oxygen-containing metabolites or oxidation products (hydroxyl, epoxide, ketones, etc.) that actually fit into the DNA structure (an adduct) that cause mutation. This lock and key fitting is what determines mutagenicity. Certain shapes in a PAH become the oxygen derivative that binds to the DNA. So substituents may increase the potency, or not. The key is the fit of the oxygenated derivatives into DNA, the intercolation that leads to replicating mutations. The most potent PAH known, so far, is the unsubstituted dibenzo[def,p]chrysene (dibenzo[a,l]pyrene), which is around 2000 times more active than benzo[a]pyrene in an Ames test.

So isomers can differ greatly in mutagenic activity becausae of shape differences. Alkylation generally reduces mutagenicity because the alkyl substituent both changes the shape of the PAH structure and may occupy the active site which prevents the oxygen derivative formation. Additionally longer alkyl groups, C4 or greater, shield the molecule more from oxidation and make it more lipophilic/ hydrophobic, which means less gets into the aqueous environment for metabolism.

Although the NIST database is thorough and well done, it carries no official significance, other than it is a source of structures and information. The authors, Lane Sander and Stephen wise, say so in the preface. The nomenclature is their best attempt at sticking to IUPAC rules. This is also the stance of Chemical Abstracts - they try, but know they are imperfect. You can find differences in naming the same structure between these two, in fact.

If this information needs to be added to the article, I can provide more references. I added my book on PAHs as a reference and it has much about these nomenclature and biological activity topics.

—fetz the chemist
 * Bravo Fetz, thank you. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 16:43, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I dont know if it is note worthy but I see no reference to Smoking (tobacco) being another major source of PAH exposure: http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/healthyliving/smokingandtobacco/whatsinacigarette/smoking-and-cancer-whats-in-a-cigarette#PAH "One of these chemicals - benzo(a)pyrene or BAP - is one of the most widely studied of all tobacco poisons. BAP directly damages p53, a gene that normally protects our bodies against cancer." http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol83/mono83.pdf -> Table 1.10 refers to a level of 22.5ng inhalation of Benzo-a-pyrene per cigarette Descarte8 (talk) 15:33, 16 June 2014 (UTC) Silly me just found it under human health Descarte8 (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Worth inclusion
The information on nomenclature belongs in an article on nomenclature, rather than here. This article on PAHs should link to the IUPAC nomenclature of organic chemistry article, and your (Fetz) information could improve that article. Of course, this article should use compliant names -- see Naming conventions (chemistry).

The mutagenicity information is noteworthy, hence well worth including in this article, always assuming it complies with Wikipedia policies e.g. WP:OR. yoyo (talk) 18:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

PAH definition conflict
I added a link to Professor G. P. Moss's IUPAC nomenclature page. He is on the committee for organic chemistry nomenclature. I do not know how to cite this link in the text, so I noted it as being from G. P. Moss.

Also I changed back someone's edit that naphthalene is a polycyclic and clarified. It is a two-ring aromatic hydrocarbon. IUPAC uses "polycyclic" to refer to three or more rings.

fetz the chemist

 * I consulted the 1998 nomenclature recommendations paper by Moss but find no statement about "polycyclic" referring only to compounds three or more rings. There doesn't seem to be a formal definition of the category called "polycyclic," just guidelines for naming given structures. In part of Reference 3, as cited by the Moss 1998 document, two ring compounds are explicitly labeled "polycyclic." Could you clarify Fkaser (talk) 23:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

 * I asked Professor Moss, and naphthalene is a bicyclic. The categories are monocyclic, bicyclic, and polycyclic for all ring systems of any type. Fetz the chemist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.243.164.4 (talk) 21:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Do PAHs include naphthalene? Neither CAS nor IUPAC defines "polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon" in the nomenclature publications that I have consulted:
 * IUPAC 1993 recommendations for organic compounds
 * IUPAC 1998 recommendations for fused ring systems
 * IUPAC draft 2004 recommendations for organic compounds
 * Chemical Abstracts (CAS) 2002 naming instructions
 * IUPAC Compendium of Chemical Terminology - the Gold Book

 * Also, IUPAC does not define the suffix poly- anywhere that I can find. CAS defines poly- as "many" under Paragraph 309, which is not useful in this context.  Thus, it's necessary to look at how IUPAC and CAS use the prefix poly- to determine if naphthalene is a PAH.

 * The IUPAC 1979 recommendations for organic compounds, under Fused Polycyclic Hydrocarbons, Rule A-21, list pentalene, indene, naphthalene, azulene, and heptalene, all bicyclic hydrocarbons. (http://www.acdlabs.com/iupac/nomenclature/79/r79_63.htm)
 * In the IUPAC 1993 recommendations for organic compounds, Table 20 on page 164 is labeled "Unsaturated polycyclic hydrocarbons" and lists naphthalene, azulene, and indene, all bicyclic hydrocarbons. (http://www.acdlabs.com/iupac/nomenclature/93/r93_687.htm)
 * The IUPAC 1998 recommendations for fused ring systems, under Rule FR-2.1.4, Polyalene components, list pentalene, heptalene, and octalene, all bicyclic hydrocarbons. http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/fusedring/FR21.html#214
 * The IUPAC draft 2004 recommendations for organic compounds, Rule P-25.1.2.3, Polyalenes, list naphthalene, pentalene, and octalene, all bicyclic hydrocarbons. [Sorry, no web page for this]
 * The CAS Naming guidelines (2002) under Paragraph 147 say, "Polycyclic systems may be divided into four classes as follows: (a) Fused systems contain at least two rings of five or more members ..."

 * IUPAC and CAS are the accepted authorities in the chemistry discipline for chemical names and terms and both of them include bicyclic compounds under various terms that include the suffix poly. Clearly, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons include bicyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and naphthalene is a PAH.

 * Citations:
 * IUPAC. Nomenclature of Organic Chemistry, Sections A, B, and C.  1979.  Edited by J. Rigaudy and S.P. Klesney.  http://www.acdlabs.com/iupac/nomenclature/
 * A Guide to IUPAC Nomenclature of Organic Compounds, Recommendations 1993. Edited by R. Panico, W.H. Powell and J.C. Richer. http://www.acdlabs.com/iupac/nomenclature/
 * IUPAC. Nomenclature of Fused and Bridged Fused Ring Systems, Recommendations 1998.  Prepared for publication by: G.P. Moss.  http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/fusedring/
 * IUPAC Draft 2004 Preferred IUPAC Names. [My copy is a .PDF that does not list authors or editors other than IUPAC and I don't have a web page reference for this although I downloaded the .PDF not too long ago.]
 * IUPAC. Compendium of Chemical Terminology, "The Gold Book"  Second edition, 1997.  Edited by A D McNaught and A Wilkinson.  Revised web version at http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/bibliog/gold.html
 * Naming and Indexing of Chemical Substances for Chemical Abstracts. A reprint of Appendix IV (Chemical Substance Index Names) from the Chemical Abstracts 2002 Index Guide.  2002.  Chemical Abstracts Service.
 * Ken the chemist (talk) 22:37, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

 * The seeming reason that there is a conflict here is that IUPAC does not always reflect standard usage by practicing organic chemists; there is always something of a time delay, as the Committees work to catch up with usage trends, and further divergence when chemists fail to take quick heed of IUPAC nomenclature proposals (in some cases, never doing so). A simple case in point are natural products, where practicing chemists never refer to their compounds by IUPAC definitions, and IUPAC is years behind in adding accepted common names of natural product frameworks. Bottom line, IUPAC and CAS simply cannot be the exclusive resources for naming at Wikipedia; we will appear very silly if we do not also make mention of conventions that have a preponderant presence in the secondary chemistry literature and in solid advanced texts.

 * Bringing this home: as Fetz is a subject matter expert, if he provides solid citations supporting usage where the focus is a higher number than two, it likely suggests this is just the type of "in theory" versus "in reality" dichotomy I refer to, and other editors should yield to Fetz, and allow reference to both the IUPAC two, and higher order understandings. (I for one would naturally incline toward three or more as well, because it is at 3 that nonlinear shapes, with interesting molecular orbital and reactivity characteristics that underlie many of the most relevant PAHs, make their appearance.) Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:08, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Illustrations for the PAH article
I have many illustrations relating to PAHs, especially ones that can be examples of the UV and fluorescence differences among PAH isomers. I also have a few on some of the routes of formation of PAHs. These are ones from my own research work and I can post them here since I have copyright to them. My question is how many of these can I add - along with accompanying text? I will need to learn the way to insert illustrations, but I have them all in electronic form already.

Fetz the chemist

Does not mention PAHs from over-cooked meat from BBQs etc
Must be more deadly if they are actually in your body after eating them. 80.0.116.162 (talk) 22:21, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree and also to propose removal need of citation requirement for "PAHs can also be found at high levels": http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol92/mono92.pdf "A significant source of PAH exposure in the general population is the consumption of particular foods, notably toasted cereals and grilled meats. These foods contain measurable levels of benzo[a]pyrene and other PAHs that are carcinogenic, probably carcinogenic, or possibly carcinogenic to humans, and there is strong evidence that some of these compounds, including benzo[a]pyrene, induce digestive-tract tumours in experimental animals when administered by ingestion. Descarte8 (talk) 15:03, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Formation of Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons
The National Academy of Sciences published a paper in 2002 proving that polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons require pressures greater than 30 kilobar for their formation which corresponds to a depth of 100 kilometers deep in the earths crust. No biological molecule can survive at such a depth because it is past the critical temperature of water.

http://www.pnas.org/content/99/17/10976.full?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=genesis+of+hydrocarbons+and+the+origin+of+petroleum&searchid=1085470440708_510&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0

Of course, this will never be allowed in this article because the fascists who edit wikipedia subscribe to medieval theories.Wikkidd (talk) 20:34, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Please keep your POV edit warring in the appropriate articles. This is not the place to push abiotic oil.  By the way, why don't you understand that just because Kenney and Kutcherov assert something doesn't mean that it has been proven.  Enough geologists and chemists have told you so that maybe you should start being agnostic about the idea.  NJGW (talk) 17:30, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

If you do detailed molecular analysis of petroleum, you find molecules that are perfect structures of reduced forms of biological molecules such as steroids and porphyrins. The concept that the original peripheral hydroxyl groups get removed is simple, acidic catalysis by something like aluminum oxide at low temperatures of 100 C to 200 C can be done in the lab. Making similar structures from constituent atoms is very thermodynamically improbable because carbon and hydrogen (and nitrogen in the case of the porphyrins) do not self-assemble into large structures.

These calculations assume hydrogen and carbon atoms joining together as aggregate large molecules, which is bot kinetically and thermodynamically unfavored. But any biological process when looked at from those fundamebntal aspects. But plants and aminals do make long hydrocarbon chains in molecules like stearic acid. It's in the blobs of ear wax accumulating in your ears. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fetz the chemist (talk • contribs) 22:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons
It hasn't been mentioned yet that PAHs are also created by grilling and similiar types of cooking. I've added a mention plus reference to correct this.NJGW (talk) 03:59, 22 September 2008 (UTC)(LOki0115)

Kekulene
Should there be a section in this article on Kekulene? (C48H24) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.250.72.175 (talk) 03:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A superbenzene? Sounds cool... what's it do? ;) As long as it's well sourced, not too technical (and hopefully someone has a GFDL picture of the molecule) it could be a good addition.  Maybe some day get it's own article.  NJGW (talk) 03:59, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

PAH
Considering that naphtalene has only 2 fused rings and if IUPAC said that only compounds with at least 3 fused rings are PAH (as the page says), why did you add naphtalene in the array with names and formulae ? It has no meaning ? I simply need an explanation because it is written that those compounds are PAH... but naphtalene not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.210.213.127 (talk) 20:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * See long discussion above on this very subject. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:09, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Introduction
The introduction should possibly include in the first sentence what an aromatic hydrocarbon is so as to frame the discussion for people who don't necessarily know what that is. (74.198.151.49 (talk) 04:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC))
 * ✅ Cheers, good suggestion. Le Prof

Introduction
For sake of improving the wiki content, the speculation of PAHs toward origin of life is an extrascientific pursuit and ought to be excised from the page. Respectfully. 128.219.49.9 (talk) 14:27, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * FWIW - PAHs, Along With Fullerenes, Have Been Detected In Outer Space(1,2) - Such Molecules Seem Sufficiently Complex To Be Credible Abiogenic Precursor Substances And, via of the PAH world hypothesis, May Lead To An RNA world - And, Afterwards, To Our Present DNA world - As A Result, The Possible Involvement Of PAHs In the Origin Of Life Seems A Worthy Scientific Pursuit - And Worth Mentioning In The PAH Article - In Any Case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 02:22, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Considering that 5 out of 19 refs refer to the origin of life and NASA for one is spending millions on studies I certainly do not see where it is not worth a mention in the lede. All scientific inquiry starts with speculation. Gandydancer (talk) 04:52, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Please see new Talk section on origin of life text material, same date and editor as this cross-reference. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:36, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Olimpicene
This molecule is in the news because an image of a single molecule has been published (e.g. BBC news site). A new article (also in Did you know) would be timely, but I'm not an organic chemist, so don't feel qualified to do it.

Lots of info at http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.19896409.html

Synthesis: ''Conjugated cyclic hydrocarbons. Part VIII. The benzo[cd]pyrenium cation: synthesis and reactivity.'' D. H. Reid, W. Bonthrone, J. Chem. Soc., 1965, 5920. Petergans (talk) 10:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Major anthropogenic sources include the burning of coal refuse banks, coke production, automobiles, commercial incinerators, and wood gasifers." - Lesage and Jackson, 1992. Most exposure comes from combustion of fossil fuels.  Concern about cooked food and comets only serves to obscure this important carcinogen and mitotic oxidant.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.183.185.133 (talk) 21:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Lede image
The article has long had File:Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons.png as the lede image. It's pretty, but one of the three structures is cut off (it's not dibenz(ah)anthracene at the bottom, but just a part of that structure) and one does not have an article (benz(e)acephenanthrylene). A better image would have complete molecules (and perhaps drawn more chemically explicitly and without superfluous background color) and cherry-pick notable examples (as defined by having articles on them). DMacks (talk) 05:14, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * @ - Thank you for your comments - a benz(e)acephenanthrylene article has been newly created - I agree - a better image would be welcome - in any case - thanks again for your comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 15:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Meaning of "Polycyclic"
I disagree with the article's lead sentence - polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) are not necessarily fused aromatic rings. The term for fused aromatic ring compounds is polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PNAs), a subset of PAHs. The Chem Abstracts guidance in paragraph 147 (2002,and also 2007) mentioned above by Ken the Chemist was cut short; Ken only quoted the first of 4 categories. The other big category of PAHs is single-bond-connected rings such as biphenyl or terphenyl. So PNA is not a synonym for PAH. The class of compounds that are metabolized in the human body to carcinogenic epoxide-derivatized forms (easily hydrolyzed to the alcohol form) is the fused ring systems, PNAs. Ironically, PNAs are epoxidized in the liver to facilitate their excretion by making them more soluble. This normal biochemical process backfires. I will rewrite the beginning of the article, if no one strongly objects. Drbillellis 15:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drbillellis (talk • contribs)
 * My background isn't chemistry, but I have done research involving PAHs on biological systems, but I'm guessing you'll be basing the description on IUPAC definitions just by looking at the discussions here. Would "bound" be better than "fused"? It seems like the majority of PAHs are fused, either ortho-fused, or ortho- peri-fused, and only some are aryl, like biphenyl. With that in mind, would it be better to address it that way and go into it in the body? Esox  id talk•contribs 23:56, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Bound is not better than fused. Fused is the standard language, and bound has various distinct chemical meanings depending on context. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:32, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Add my edit here. The 2007 CAS refers to what I called aryl, as ring assemblies. Where can I find a PNA (polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbon) definition? I've found papers where PAHs are referred to as polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons, but not formal definitions or references to PNAs. Esox  id talk•contribs 00:15, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a site where the terms are used: http://www.docbrown.info/page07/Aromatics.htm. I regret the author's rather sloppy equalization of terms.  My background is organic chemistry (PhD, Johns Hopkins U. 1981); my preference for terms comes from my advisors and co-workers in grad school, and in my on-the-job training in environmental toxicology of coal tars and other sources of carcinogenic fused-ring aromatics such as the cigarette smoke PNA carcinogen benzo[a]pyrene. The preferred term for PNAs, which share one or more "sides" (2 adjacent carbons) is "fused" rings. The term "bound" is inadequate - it suggests only a single bond between.  The nature of fused ring systems is the ease with which the body's liver enzymes can epoxidize one face (side), intending to make the foreign chemical more soluble and excretable, but inadvertently making it into a DNA/RNA attacking carcinogen. The extensive p-electron array of fused rings facilitates this reaction.  Drbillellis 12:24, 5 June 2014 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drbillellis (talk • contribs)
 * All good insights, and valuable here. Subject matter experts actually editing in their specific articles of interest is about as good as it can be here. (I am PhD Chem/pharma and nat products, and so am a little out of my waters here; but as teaching and research Prof, have broader experience that undergirds my general responses.) Note, FYI, doc brown website is not an acceptable source here. Bottom line on the broader discussion, any usage that you can find that is substantiated by two or more reputable secondary sources (e.g., reviews or book chapters) reflects usage that is likely broad enough here to be included. Note, there are IUPAC-only folks that patrol chemistry pages, but I will support you in introducing other usage directions if they are substantiated by the referencing I indicate. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:32, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Most of my work was in the biotransformation of PAHs (or PNAs) and effects on marine biological communities (vertebrates and inverts), so I'm at least familiar with effects, not necessarily the entire biochemical mechanisms, so my literature library is full of papers that use the term but give no definition of PNAs. The others just use PAH as a collective term, since it's usually just that, both high-molecular weight and low-molecular weight PAHs from some point-source like former wood treatment facilities. Thanks for the information. Esox id talk•contribs 20:16, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
 * This "PAH as collective term" is just the sort of "usage v. nomenclature" reality that I make mention of in the foregoing discussion far above. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:32, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Guys, please review the long foregoing talk, digesting all, before starting bold nomenclature/usage editing, or restarting discussions (that may have already, in some respects, have reached a conclusion. See, in particular, the section above, "PAH definition conflict" and sections preceding it, for a long discussion on the matters you are raising here. (Click here and scroll up.) If after reading all of this, there is still a proposal to make about a change, please create a new section and make a proposal, and let it sit for a time before making bold edits. Even better, ping the two chemists that argued extensively above (if they are still around). New edits always welcome, but so little time in life, have no interest in reinventing this Wikiwheel.  Cheers, Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:32, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

After performing a search for "polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbon" (PNA), I found in just the Environmental Protection Agency's collection of published documents over 3,000 citations of the term; many of the documents were secondary references. I realize, however, that the specific term PNA instead of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon (PAH) is only an important distinction to professionals with a toxic effects interest. The fusion of aromatic rings provides carcinogenic precursor chemicals, extremely important constituents that contribute most of the carcinogenicity to cigarette smoke. PAHs that are not PNAs do not tend to be carcinogen precursors. I am not, however, inclined to change the "PAHs" article to make it more toxic effects aware. Drbillellis 20:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drbillellis (talk • contribs)

Will be editing Origins of Life section
I do not agree with the IP editor 128... above, nor can anyone believe he argues based on the preponderance of scientific opinion and available sources. Moreover, the section in question is one of the most richly referenced and up to date sections in the article (a clear positive).

''However, this section is now 1/8th of the article volume, 11 of the 36 citations, and 23 of the 49 inline citations. This is clearly disproportionate, so it is clear, relative to the other areas where PAHs have historic and current chemical, toxicologic, and other literature presences, that the article has begun to give this area attention beyond what it should in a general article.''

At the same time, this astrophysical flare-up has created/furthered a pattern of relying on primary sources and news reports to a degree that is not acceptable at WP. There are certain cases where primary sources are necessary, but secondary sources—reviews, book chapters, etc.—are far preferred in WP policies and guidelines (akin to writing history articles from books by noted historians, and not from newspaper articles). And news reports are used in science sourcing only for establishing that the scientific event was considered newsworthy, and not for sourcing the scientific facts. Press releases are not reliable sources of independent scientific information, at all (because they do an end around journalistic norms that are applied in taking the press release information and doing the news story).

So, I will begin to edit this section, to reduce its volume, in part to move it toward being based on reliable secondary sources, leaving in as appropriate statements of the newsworthiness of the discoveries as the subjects require and sourcing supports. As well, any redundancies in sourcing will be reduced; in particular, the lede should summarize statements already made in the main body, and so does not need to be richly sourced (if the main body is). Keep an eye. Also will ping the editors placing this all, when I begin. Cheers. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 18:00, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

 * I am OK with shortening the "Origins of life" section. After all, it already has a hat directing it to the main article "PAH world hypothesis"; also, we are supposed to only include a summary of it when linked to its main parent article. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:42, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Please, @BatteryIncluded, you and @User:Sbharris take a whack, and I will help as well. I want you guys to have your say, for I am merciless with unsourced and speculative material once I get started. I want to make sure your voices are heard, if you have time and interest. Le Prof  Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree with Leprof and BatteryIncluded, per WP:SS. A short summary with the main article as we have, is enough. I would shorten the section to two or three paragraphs, since the info is all at the main PAH world hypothesis article. I will admit that some of this is my own prejudice-- I would feel differently if I thought that PAHs (even the proper fused flat polycyclic kind) were some kind of magic solution for the primary problem of life origin, which is that phosphate polymers (indeed all polymers made by -OH OH- condensation and water expulsion, including proteins and RNA-AA hybrids) are not stable in water. So that hurts the idea of any sort of standard prebiotic watery soup. Somebody found these PAH things in space (gosh it must smell like a bar lounge and backyard barbecue out there) and erected a whole rich fantasy world based on them (PAH world hypothesis), but it's all very airy hypothesis with no evidence at this point, and even if "PAH worlds" exist (and smell like George Foreman and George Burns), they STILL don't solve a primary problem. Perhaps they help nucleotide bases stack a bit better. However, if PAH's are really 20% of the universe's carbon that exists in dust between stars, and perhaps are a primordial carbon component of our solar system and a starting material for tholins, then I think that they should get more space in the carbon article in the Universe section, rather than here. After all, we don't KNOW they have anything to do with life-- it's a very whisp of a suggestion. We do know there's a hell of a lot of them out there in space, though. So that fact should get the bulk of the play HERE in this PAH article, not the (VERY) speculative life connection (which for the third time, indeed has its own article for those who want to play with it). S  B Harris 21:44, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for responsiveness and feedback, both. And good point in re Carbon article, @User:Sbharris. I am also a "what's the latest world we can imagine" skeptic, but I understand the game—as a former academic—that like a homebuilder whose job is to produce homes, such is what we/they do (produce ideas, some novel, some not so). It is indeed remarkable, the 20% number, but of that—a computed number without reported error—I am suspicious, and will look to it to see what the original pub actually said. But, if your George Foreman will produce micrograms from incomplete combustion, surely a fiery planet-creating event can give us a comparable bit of char. (Technically, chemically, had the PAH research remained focused on temperature I would be more skeptical, but combustion when short of oxygen is a stellar scenario that is imaginable.) More generally, I think at times that the nature of origins research makes it all a bit too easy. There was, decades ago when I worked in this field, an article that proposed earth had been covered by a 1-10m oil slick during the period of interest to AI Oparin et al., see this: . I was going to tell you this idea withered on the vine, as I anticipate the PAHs-are-the-key arguments will. But then I found this, see . mdr Real value of it all? Well, I left the area, and went to work in infectious disease drug discovery, so my vote with my feet tells you what I think, at heart. Cheers, and look forward to a collaborative re-write of this section.  Le Prof  Leprof 7272 (talk) 17:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

FWIW - somewhat relevant, perhaps, to PAHs and abiogenesis are initial conditions - there seems to be a premise for serious abiogenesis studies that life began on earth - under conditions of the primitive earth (ie, Miller–Urey experiment) - however, there seems to be some worthy studies that this may not have been the case at all - and instead - life may have begun elsewhere - with *entirely* different initial conditions - one intriguing possiblity (at least to me at the moment) is that life began 9.7 billion years ago (based on a statistical regression analysis of "genetic complexity" over the years by several researchers at NIH not too long ago - see details => Panspermia, including < ref name="arXiv-20130328"> ) - if so, then life may have begun somewhere in the universe billions of years before the earth was formed - and under conditions *entirely* different from that of the primitive earth - comments on this welcome of course - especially how this may be related to PAHs (more favorable? or less so?) and abiogenesis - (also, if interested, my NYT comment, also here, may be related) - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 18:47, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

 * This seems to be a good working team, and I would like to highlight that Dr Bogdan has worked on this subject in real life, and that he is the most gentle editor I have come across. Bogdan, are you OK with condensing the "Origins of Life" section in this article? I admit I am not very familiar with the PAH world hypothesis, but this discussion should be transferred there. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 00:05, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
 * @ - Thank you for your comments - they're *very* much appreciated - in some ways, I may be warming up to some of this at the moment - *entirely* ok with me if anyone wishes to present some ideas of course - yes, I have some modest research/publication experience (some years ago) with PAHs - mostly related to chemical carcinogenesis at the DNA level - but know there's much more to learn - Thanks again for your comments - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 00:45, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

STARTER DRAFT - A trimmed version (about 45% of the original text/207vs462words) of the "Origins of life" section is as follows:  Origins of life PAHs may be abundant in the universe. They seem to have been formed as early as a couple of billion years after the Big Bang, and are associated with new stars and exoplanets. More than 20% of the carbon in the universe may be associated with PAHs. PAHs are considered possible starting material for the earliest forms of life.

In 2004, astronomers, studying the Red Rectangle nebula, found spectral signatures of anthracene and pyrene, first time such complex molecules were found in outer space. The astronomers suggested that PAHs originated in nebulae. Other complex molecules, such as fullerenes that may also be associated with the formation of early life, have also been detected in nebulae.

In 2012, scientists reported results that PAHs, subjected to interstellar medium (ISM) conditions, are transformed, through hydrogenation, oxygenation, and hydroxylation, to more complex organics—"a step along the path toward amino acids and nucleotides, the raw materials of proteins and DNA, respectively".

In 2013, detection of PAHs in the upper atmosphere of Titan, the largest moon of the planet Saturn, was reported by scientists.

In 2014, NASA announced a greatly upgraded database for tracking polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) in the universe.

References

Entirely ok with me to adj/ce/rm the version of course - hope this helps in some way - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 13:34, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

 * From what I know about polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PNAs), I strongly believe that there is only a very tenuous link between the origin of life and PNAs. The mention of transformation, oxygenation, and hydroxylation to derive amino acids, proteins, and nucleotides is almost laughable.  PNAs would have to be broken down almost completely, then reacted with ammonia or an amine of some sort to arrive at most amino acids.  Proteins are just chains of amino acids, most of which have no aromatic rings at all.  The chemicals found in celestial objects include ammonia, water, carbon monoxide, hydrogen cyanide, and carbon dioxide - these are reasonable building blocks for amino acids, proteins, and nucleotides.  The objection raised above, about the presence of water being a problem for biogenesis overlooks this: hydrolysis is reversible, and at equilibrium conditions, both reactants and products co-exist, even in water.  My personal opinion is this: PNAs adsorbed to the surface of silicate particles (the latter also found in celestial objects) could very well have been catalysts (ie. more of a template and not a reactant) for the biogenetic reactions of NH3, H2O, CO, HCN, and CO2 to form life precursor chemicals. I think that the astro-professionals who think that PNAs, because they are complex, are life precursors, reveal an embarrassing ignorance of bio-organic chemistry.  Keep in mind - the original Urey-Miller biogenesis experiments used these precursors: water, methane, carbon dioxide, and ammonia, with electrical discharges as the energy source.  Amino acids were found in the product solution; subsequent experiments by other researchers found nucleotides, too. Keep this in mind - the body synthesizes proteins and nucleotides in a thoroughly aqueous environment at body temperature, while PNAs are synthesized under oxygen-deficient high-temperature conditions, and tend to deposit on the surface of silicate dust (in celestial environments) or on soot (from incomplete combustion on earth).  Drbillellis 19:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drbillellis (talk • contribs)

 * @Drbogdan "This report was considered a controversial hypothesis that as nebulae of the same type as the Red Rectangle approach the ends of their lives, convection currents cause carbon and hydrogen in the nebulae's cores to get caught in stellar winds, and radiate outward." The above unparseable sentence appears in the current version of the Origins of Life section. What does it even mean? Larry Koenigsberg (talk) 16:42, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

 * and others - Thanks for your comments - interesting - not sure at the moment - may have to do some homework with this at the next opportunity - Comments Welcome about this from other editors of course - in any case - Thanks for your comments - and - Stay Safe and Healthy - Drbogdan (talk) 16:58, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Move "Detection and optical properties" subsection to its own section?
The subsection on "Detection and optical properties" is listed within "Human health", but the content appears to be about analytical chemistry methods and physical properties of PAHs. I propose moving it outside of "Human health" to its own section. Does this seem reasonable? I'm happy to make the adjustment myself, but this page has a lot of active editors and I don't want to intervene inappropriately. -- E.Thorsos (talk) 04:43, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

small change
stick more to the topic and should be more specific. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.51.141.67 (talk) 09:36, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

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Proposed expansion of PAH sources, distribution, toxicity
In consultation with my colleagues whose research focuses on PAH carcinogenesis and ecotoxicity, I have drafted content that reorganizes and expands information about sources of PAHs, human exposure, health effects, and ecotoxicology. As I format references, etc., I have posted this draft to my sandbox. This update may be too detailed, and I welcome comments before posting. E.Thorsos (talk) 01:05, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

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Extraterrestrial Reference
Currently says "citation needed", fairly sure it is covered in: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230983828_The_Mid-Infrared_Spectrum_of_Star-forming_Galaxies_Global_Properties_of_Polycyclic_Aromatic_Hydrocarbon_Emission section 5.4 offers ".. up to 20% of the total infra-red". But I'm not an astrophysicist, nor sure how to do the citation well.

Error in "Bonding and aromaticity" section
This section talks about three- and four-ring molecules (phenanthrene, anthracene, and chrysene), however I believe there is an error with part of this. The (unsourced) text of the article reads: "Three Clar structures with two sextets each are present in the four-ring chrysene structure: one having sextets in the first and third rings, one in the second and fourth rings, and one in the first and fourth rings." The accompanying image does indeed show three different structures. However, the first two (the "first and third" and "second and fourth" structures) appear to be identical by a 180 degree rotation. Unless there was a heteroatom or substituent to differentiate between the two, would these structures not be identical, thus resulting in only two different Clar structures? I admit I am not a chemist so I may be missing something. For what it's worth, the article on chrysene itself does not mention any of this at all. Lumberjane Lilly (talk) 18:24, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's true that some of the structures appear as rotations or flips of each other. That is just an effect of the the molecule being symmetric. Drawing distinct resonance structures is already a bit of a fiction (see Resonance (chemistry)), and it relies on the atoms remaining in fixed locations while the bonds are re-positioned. One could just as well label a certain carbon atom as a specific isotope. DMacks (talk) 02:16, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon


text:
1998 Wimbledon Championships

The 1998 Wimbledon Championships was a tennis tournament played on grass courts at the All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club in Wimbledon, London in the United Kingdom. It was the 112th edition of the Wimbledon Championships and was held from 22 June to 5 July 1998.

Prize money
The total prize money for 1998 championships was £7,207,590. The winner of the men's title earned £435,000 while the women's singles champion earned £391,500.

 * per team

Men's singles
🇺🇸 Pete Sampras defeated Goran lvanisevic, 6–7(2–7), 7–6(11–9), 6–4, 3–6, 6–2
 * It was Sampras' 11th career Grand Slam singles title and his 5th at Wimbledon.

Women's singles
🇨🇿 Jana Novotná defeated 🇫🇷 Nathalie Tauziat, 6–4, 7–6(7–2)
 * It was Novotná's 1st and only career Grand Slam singles title.

Men's doubles
Jacco Eltingh / Paul Haarhuis defeated 🇦🇺 Todd Woodbridge / 🇦🇺 Mark Woodforde, 2–6, 6–4, 7–6(7–3), 5–7, 10–8
 * It was Eltingh's 6th and last career Grand Slam doubles title and his 1st at Wimbledon. It was Haarhuis' 5th career Grand Slam doubles title and his 1st and only at Wimbledon.

Women's doubles
Martina Hingis / 🇨🇿 Jana Novotná defeated 🇺🇸 Lindsay Davenport / 🇧🇾 Natasha Zvereva, 6–3, 3–6, 8–6
 * It was Hingis' 5th career Grand Slam doubles title and her 2nd at Wimbledon. It was Novotná's 11th career Grand Slam doubles title and her 4th and last at Wimbledon.

Mixed doubles
🇧🇾 Max Mirnyi / 🇺🇸 Serena Williams defeated 🇮🇳 Mahesh Bhupathi / Mirjana Lučić, 6–4, 6–4
 * It was Williams' 1st career Grand Slam mixed doubles title. It was Mirnyi's 1st career Grand Slam mixed doubles title.

Boys' singles
Roger Federer defeated Irakli Labadze, 6–4, 6–4

Girls' singles
Katarina Srebotnik defeated 🇧🇪 Kim Clijsters, 7–6(7–3), 6–3

Boys' doubles
Roger Federer / 🇧🇪 Olivier Rochus defeated 🇫🇷 Michaël Llodra / 🇮🇱 Andy Ram, 3–6, 6–4, 7–5

Girls' doubles
Eva Dyrberg / Jelena Kostanić defeated  Petra Rampre / 🇺🇿 Iroda Tulyaganova, 6–2, 7–6(7–5)

Men's singles

 * 1) 🇺🇸 Pete Sampras (champion)
 * 2)  Marcelo Ríos (first round, lost to Francisco Clavet)
 * 3) 🇨🇿 Petr Korda (quarterfinals, lost to Tim Henman)
 * 4) 🇬🇧 Greg Rusedski (first round, lost to Mark Draper)
 * 5) 🇪🇸 Carlos Moyá (second round, lost to Hicham Arazi)
 * 6) 🇦🇺 Patrick Rafter (fourth round, lost to Tim Henman)
 * 7) 🇷🇺 Yevgeny Kafelnikov (first round, lost to Mark Philippoussis)
 * 8) 🇫🇷 Cédric Pioline (first round, lost to Marc Rosset)
 * 9)  Richard Krajicek (semifinals, lost to Goran Ivanišević)
 * 10) 🇪🇸 Àlex Corretja (first round, lost to Justin Gimelstob)
 * 11) 🇸🇪 Jonas Björkman (third round, lost to Jan Siemerink)
 * 12) 🇬🇧 Tim Henman (semifinals, lost to Pete Sampras)
 * 13) 🇺🇸 Andre Agassi (second round, lost to Tommy Haas)
 * 14)  Goran Ivanišević (final, lost to Pete Sampras)
 * 15) 🇸🇰 Karol Kučera (first round, lost to Vladimir Voltchkov)
 * 16) 🇪🇸 Félix Mantilla (third round, lost to Sébastien Grosjean)

Women's singles

 * 1)  Martina Hingis (semifinals, lost to Jana Novotná)
 * 2) 🇺🇸 Lindsay Davenport (quarterfinals, lost to Nathalie Tauziat)
 * 3) 🇨🇿 Jana Novotná (champion)
 * 4) 🇩🇪 Steffi Graf (third round, lost to Natasha Zvereva)
 * 5) 🇪🇸 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario (quarterfinals, lost to Martina Hingis)
 * 6) 🇺🇸 Monica Seles (quarterfinals, lost to Natasha Zvereva)
 * 7) 🇺🇸 Venus Williams (quarterfinals, lost to Jana Novotná)
 * 8) 🇪🇸 Conchita Martínez (third round, lost to Sam Smith)
 * 9)  Amanda Coetzer (second round, lost to Naoko Sawamatsu)
 * 10)  Irina Spîrlea (fourth round, lost to Jana Novotná)
 * 11) 🇫🇷 Mary Pierce (first round, lost to Elena Tatarkova)
 * 12) 🇷🇺 Anna Kournikova (withdrew before the tournament began)
 * 13)  Patty Schnyder (second round, lost to Cara Black)
 * 14) 🇫🇷 Sandrine Testud (fourth round, lost to Monica Seles)
 * 15) 🇧🇪 Dominique Van Roost (fourth round, lost to Arantxa Sánchez Vicario)
 * 16) 🇫🇷 Nathalie Tauziat (final, lost to Jana Novotná)

title: 1998 Wimbledon Championships


text:
Talk:Exeter St Davids railway station

"Codswallop"
What a load of "codswallop" - if you want to bang on about trainspotting and self gratification then why don't you set up another website? This website offers very little in the way of traveller information, station or regional facilities - in short it's a very poor website. Not even a mention of the station being a link to Exeter International Airport!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.240.75.244 (talk • contribs) 11:34, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Other stations
FWIW, I think the other six stations in Exeter are: --bjh21 11:55, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Exeter Central railway station
 * St James Park
 * Pinhoe railway station
 * Polsloe Bridge
 * Digby & Sowton
 * Exeter St Thomas

Uniqueness

 * St David's is unique in that it is the only station in the country where trains depart from either end to reach London [...]

No, it isn't: other examples include:

 * Margate
 * Broadstairs
 * Ramsgate
 * Dover Priory

(all in Kent: trains head to Charing Cross in one direction and Victoria in the other);

 * Fareham

(in Hampshire: trains to Waterloo head west, trains to Victoria head east);

 * Edinburgh Waverley

(all GNER services to Kings Cross leave from the east, but the sleeper service to Euston heads west);

 * Leeds

(most GNER services leave via the west end, but some head east so to by-pass Wakefield).

There are also the stations on the South London Line, which runs between Victoria and London Bridge.

So Exeter St Davids is anything but unique in this regard! --RFBailey 09:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Anyone know where it is? It isn't here: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Exeter+saint+davids&sll=50.783365,-3.707542&sspn=0.05329,0.173035&ie=UTF8&latlng=50705290,-3528687,10168165232564717658 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jago25_98 (talk • contribs)

 * Here: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&f=q&q=Isambard+Parade+exeter&btnG=Search+Maps --h2g2bob 23:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Images
I've uploaded another image Image:Exeterstdavidsstation.jpg if it should be of any use. Gordonofcartoon 15:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Popular Culture
No reference to the appearance of the station in the opening sequence of The French Lieutenant's Woman (film)? --Fremsley (talk) 13:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

St David's or St Davids
Maybe one of those you say tomato, I say tomahto discussions, but even official organisations differ on whether to include or exclude the apostrophe. National Rail includes it, while station owner Network Rail, leaseholder Great Western Railway and the Highways Agency don’t.

Through multiple rebrandings, the platform signs in the 1970s, 1994, and  have consistently excluded it. Likewise the [https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-exeter-stdavids-railway-station-entrance-devon-uk-48876106.html? station entrance] also exludes.

So if we apply the 'what does it say on the tin test?" then appears to be with the apostrophe excluded. For this reason should the article be renamed and the text reflect? 194.168.147.165 (talk) 10:37, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Colin G. Maggs in
 * uses an apostrophe throughout, although some of the photos do not show one. National Rail has an apostrophe; so does Butt. -- Red rose64 🌹 (talk) 12:58, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
 * uses an apostrophe throughout, although some of the photos do not show one. National Rail has an apostrophe; so does Butt. -- Red rose64 🌹 (talk) 12:58, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

 * Looking though various sources, both online and printed, doesn't appear to be an overwhelming case for one over the other, seemingly being based on each writer's interpretation. While the 'official' National Rail does use the apostrophe, wouldn't consider this to be the be all and end all. That the signs at the station (for the last 40 years at least) have not included the apostrophe, am inclined to go with this reflecting how those on the ground interpret. While there have been cases of station signs being incorrectly spelt, these are usually corrected either immediately or during the next makeover. In this era with local historical and progress groups being active, representations would have probably been made by now to have it corrected, yet the most recent makeover of the signage earlier this year has seen the status quo remain. 11Expo (talk) 12:24, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

 * Clearly the apostrophe is grammatically correct, but in all the years I've known this station (both in a professional capacity and as an enthusiast) I can't recall seeing it used on signage and seldom in official documentation. Geof Sheppard (talk) 12:49, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Exeter St Davids railway station