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Afikim

Afikim (אֲפִיקִים) is an Israeli kibbutz affiliated with the Kibbutz Movement located in the Jordan Valley three kilometers from the Sea of Galilee. It is within the jurisdiction of the Emek HaYarden Regional Council. In it had a population of.

Etymology
The name Afikim means "riverbeds", and refers to the Jordan River and its tributary, the Yarmuk River, and is also taken from the Bible, Ezekiel 34:13: "I will pasture them ... in the riverbeds."

History
Russian Jews affiliated with the Hashomer Hatzair movement organised in 1924 and settled in the area of Wazia in the Upper Galilee. In 1932 the group moved to its current location on a tract of land belonging to Degania Bet, where it absorbed groups from the Poale Zion movement and Hechalutz. The name "Afikim" was officially adopted in 1936. Yisrael Hofesh, one of the founders of the kibbutz, who died in 2011 at the age of 107, helped to establish the banana industry and worked in the plywood factory run by the kibbutz.

During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Afikim was subjected to frequent shelling by Syrian and Iraqi forces, and was a stronghold of Palmach activity. Afterwards it was a center for agricultural training for IDF soldiers who planned to join kibbutzim after demobilization. During the split of the Kibbutz Meuhad movement, Afikim, unlike many other kibbutzim, did not split up into two villages. Rather it joined the Mapai-affiliated faction which went on to found the Ihud Kibbutzim. In 1977, Afikim hosted 66 refugees from Vietnam. In 2011, the kibbutz accepted 100 new members.

Economy

Afikim grows bananas, date palms, avocados, olives, subtropical flora, and grains. It also engages in aquaculture and dairy farming. The kibbutz has 400 cows. It operates Afimilk, a dairy equipment company, and Afikim Electric Vehicles, a producer of electric vehicles. In the 1980s, Afikim went through an economic crisis and was partially privatized.

In 2010, Afikim announced its partnership in a half-billion-dollar milk production project in Vietnam. The project involved establishing a dairy operation of 30,000 cows to supply 500,000 liters of milk a day, about 40% of Vietnam's present milk consumption. Afikim was responsible for all stages of the enterprise, including breeding and preparing land for crops used as feed. In addition to a demonstration farm with 174 cows established for educational purposes, a commercial milk farm with 20,000 cows, the TH Milk facility, was built in stages by 2015. The milk output per cow is 9,300 liters of milk annually despite tropical conditions.

Inventions
The first electronic milk meter, which measures how many liters of milk a cow has produced, was invented at Afikim. Other inventions include the pedometer, which counts the number of steps a cow takes, indicating the right time for insemination; AfiFarm, a milking and dairy herd management software program; AfiAct, a fertility detection system; and AfiLab, a device that analyses the components of the milk and detects bacteria.

Awards and recognition
In 2009, Assaf Inbari, a writer who grew up on the kibbutz, published Home, a novel based on the history of Afikim. It was awarded the 2010 Israel Book Publishers Association's Platinum Prize and was on the shortlist of finalists for the Sapir Prize for Literature.

In 2011, Afikim Electric Vehicles' Breeze-S scooter won Germany's Red Dot design award in the life science and medicine category.

Afikim is also the headquarters of the biggest music licensing company in Israel, Artlist, which converted the old community canteen into an office space.

Notable people

 * Assaf Inbari
 * Yoel Palgi
 * Leo Roth
 * Zvi Brenner

title: Afikim


text: User talk:61.69.12.19

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:61.69.12.19


text:
Chuck Carroll

Charles Oliver Carroll (August 13, 1906 – June 23, 2003) was an American football player and attorney in the state of Washington. He was the King County Prosecuting Attorney between 1949 and 1971.

Early life
Carroll was born on August 13, 1906, in Seattle, Washington. He was one of five children of Thomas J. Carroll, who founded Carroll's Fine Jewelry, and Maude Carroll. He attended Madrona Grammar School. He graduated from Garfield High School in 1925, where he was editor of the school newspaper and played football under coach Leon Brigham, earning 16 varsity letters. He later married Alyce Grangaard and the couple had two children: Chuck Jr. and Kathleen.

Football career
He attended the University of Washington (UW), where he was a running back and linebacker for the Washington Huskies football team, at a time when teams had to play both offensive and defensive positions. He was coached by Enoch Bagshaw, who had led the school to its first two appearances at the Rose Bowl in 1924 and 1926. In his junior year, he scored fifteen touchdowns and in a game on October 22, 1927 against the school's rival, Washington State University, he scored two touchdowns while rushing for 136 yards.

During Carroll's senior year, he had six touchdowns against the College of Puget Sound, scoring 36 points, a UW record for points in a game by a single player. In 1928, he scored a total of 17 touchdowns, which was the school record until it was beaten by Corey Dillon in 1996. At a game against the Stanford University Cardinals on November 17, 1928, the Huskies lost by 0–12 but Carroll was carried off the field on the shoulders of the Stanford players, urged by President-elect Herbert Hoover. Stanford's coach, Pop Warner, said he had never seen "a greater football player." Following the game, Warner named Carroll to his All-America first team. He was also named to eleven other All-America teams in 1928, including the Associated Press, United Press, Saturday Evening Post and the All-America Board.

Carroll was the leading scorer in his junior and senior years for the Pacific Coast Conference. He played for all but six minutes of his three-year collegiate career, being nicknamed the "Iron Man". He received the Flaherty Medal for most inspirational player in his senior year. His jersey, no. 2, is one of only three numbers retired by the UW football program, along with the jerseys of George Wilson and Roland Kirkby. Former UW wide receivers Aaron Williams, Kasen Williams and Aaron Fuller were allowed to wear the retired jersey. Carroll would go on to earn a place in the College Football Hall of Fame in 1964, the National Football Foundation Hall of Fame in 1964, and was the first inductee to the University of Washington Husky Football Hall of Fame in 1979. He was selected by his high school in 1950 as its Athlete of the First Half Century, was inducted into the Helms Athletic Foundation's hall of fame in 1958 and was selected for the UW's All-Time Team in 1950 as a first-teamer.

Legal career
After graduation, Carroll chose not to play professional football. He attended the University of Washington School of Law, graduating in 1932. He then became a private practice attorney in Seattle. He was in the Judge Advocate General's Corps for the U.S. Army during World War II where he was stationed in the Presidio in San Francisco, California. He reached rank of colonel during his five years in the service. In 1948, he was appointed as the King County Prosecuting Attorney by three members of the county commission. He immediately announced that he would investigate rumors of illegal gambling. He held the position for 22 years. In 1957, he prosecuted powerful Teamster leader Dave Beck for grand larceny.

He was powerful in Republican politics, gaining the power to approve all political appointees. He lost re-election to be the prosecuting attorney in 1970, losing in a close Republican primary to Christopher Bayley. Following his loss, he was indicted for failing to prosecute police corruption, when Seattle police officers were accused of accepting bribes from tavern owners in exchange for not investigating illegal gambling. The indictment was ultimately dismissed by Judge W. R. Cole. He rejoined private practice until his retirement in 1985.

Death and legacy
He died on June 23, 2003, at Swedish Hospital in Seattle at the age of 96.

title: Chuck Carroll


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Social Creed (Methodist)

The Social Creed originated to express Methodism's outrage over the miserable lives of the millions of workers in factories, mines, mills, tenements and company towns. It was adopted by the Methodist Episcopal Church, the first denomination in Christendom to adopt an official Social Creed. As a part of United Methodist social principles, United Methodist congregations are encouraged to regularly reflect upon the creed and use it in worship services.

History
Influenced by the Social Gospel movement and the Progressive politics of early-20th-century America, the Church wrote and adopted the creed in 1908. Its primary authors were Harry F. Ward, Elbert R. Zaring, Frank Mason North, Herbert Welch, and Worth M. Tippy. It has been altered through the years, and still appears in The Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church, following the Social Principles section.

Social Creed
"We believe in God, Creator of the world; and in Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of creation. We believe in the Holy Spirit, through whom we acknowledge God’s gifts, and we repent of our sin in misusing these gifts to idolatrous ends.

We affirm the natural world as God's handiwork and dedicate ourselves to its preservation, enhancement, and faithful use by humankind.

We joyfully receive for ourselves and others the blessings of community, sexuality, marriage, and the family.

We commit ourselves to the rights of men, women, children, youth, young adults, the aging, and people with disabilities; to improvement of the quality of life; and to the rights and dignity of all persons.

We believe in the right and duty of persons to work for the glory of God and the good of themselves and others and in the protection of their welfare in so doing; in the rights to property as a trust from God, collective bargaining, and responsible consumption; and in the elimination of economic and social distress.

We dedicate ourselves to peace throughout the world, to the rule of justice and law among nations, and to individual freedom for all people of the world.

We believe in the present and final triumph of God’s Word in human affairs and gladly accept our commission to manifest the life of the gospel in the world. Amen."

The current Social Creed as it appears in the 2008 Book of Discipline, ¶ 166.

1908 Methodist Social Creed
The Methodist Episcopal Church states:

"For equal rights and complete justice for all men in all stations of life.

For the principles of conciliation and arbitration in industrial dissensions.

For the protection of the worker from dangerous machinery, occupational diseases, injuries and mortality.

For the abolition of child labor.

For such regulation of the conditions of labor for women as shall safeguard the physical and moral health of the community.

For the suppression of the "sweating system."

For the gradual and reasonable reduction of the hours of labor to the lowest practical point, with work for all; and for that degree of leisure for all which is the condition of the highest human life.

For a release for [from] employment one day in seven.

For a living wage in every industry.

For the highest wage that each industry can afford, and for the most equitable division of the products of industry that can ultimately be devised.

For the recognition of the Golden Rule and the mind of Christ as the supreme law of society and the sure remedy for all social ills."

When the Federal Council of Churches adopted the social creed in December 1908, they added the following phrase at the end:

"To the toilers of America and to those who by organized effort are seeking to lift the crushing burdens of the poor, and to reduce the hardships and uphold the dignity of labor, this Council sends the greeting of human brotherhood and the pledge of sympathy and of help in a cause which belongs to all who follow Christ."

title: Social Creed (Methodist)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Edward boggles

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. JeremyA 04:25, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Edward boggles
Vanity is not a criterion for speedy deletion. It is, however, a criterion for deletion on VfD. Denni ☯ 02:01, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

 * Delete, vanity. No relevant google results. --bainer (talk) 02:50, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Article establishes non-notability: His first release ... was never released. jni 06:34, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, musicians who haven't released anything are not notable.   — J I P | Talk 10:06, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - I think he's aka Gypsy Dave - vanity --Doc (?) 08:36, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete vanity. JamesBurns 09:25, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete this and Gypsy Dave, too. - Rlw (Talk) 14:11, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete vanity. --Etacar11 16:02, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. 'nuff said already. 216.158.31.195 17:17, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Fine, delete it. I had no idea how strict your rules were.
 * Unsigned vote by User:162.119.232.105
 * Keep Edward Boggles has a cult following in Los Angeles and San Francisco.
 * Unsigned vote also by User:162.119.232.105

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


text:
Talk:Social Creed (Methodist)

Needs
This article still needs work as to history, the various versions of the creed through the years, and its influence on the Church and ecumenical movement. KHM03 02:02, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Social Creed (Methodist)


text:
Portal talk:Palestine

Somebody please help me with this. Revolución 02:00, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Any help with the "Did you know" section would be greatly appreciated. Revolución 06:14, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Crawling with leftist propaganda and wikipedia code violations
"that the Palestinians can't pronounce the name 'Palestine' because Arabic has no syllable for 'P' ? (I am a Palestinian, it is true we dont have the letter 'P', but most people still can pronounce it)" Personal referrences and pronouns on an encyclopedia, I think not. Also, the leftist confidence in the future statehood of the illegal Israeli occupants is overwhelming. Simply reffer to the top of the page in the "Rename" request. "... the people, the culture, the nation (although not YET independent). How such utter bullshit could make its way into an increasingly reputable and respected site. This is the kind of shit that gives wikipedia a bad name.

Rename
Palestine page is a disambig that - correctly - mentions Eretz Israel in the very 1st line. This portal needs to be renamed into State of Palestine or Jamahiriyya Filastin of some such. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 02:58, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think that is necessary. It mentions the region of Palestine, but this isn't about the historical region of Palestine. This is about Palestine, the people, the culture, the nation (although not independent), and all other Palestinian-related issues (such as Israeli-Palestinian peace process, and all that. Of course this is closely related to Israel, and I will welcome cooperation between our two portals. ;-) Revolución 23:36, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Renaming it would be absolutely inappropriate, and highly offensive. This is about modern-day Palestine - the land of the Palestinians - not about the various historical usages which have motivated the disambig, and there is no ambiguity in its present-day use. - Mustafaa 00:24, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * It does, however, highlight a gap in Wikipedia's articles, which I already pointed out long ago on Talk:Palestine : we need an article on Palestine (nation) as well as Palestine (region), uniting the common thread of the disparate elements that are currently scattered among Proposals for a Palestinian state, Palestinian, Palestinian National Authority, State of Palestine, etc. - Mustafaa 00:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Israeli's have "Israel" as a portal, so it's absolutely innapropriate to tell the Palestinians that they can't have "Palestine" as their portal. Blackcats 08:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Portals aren't "owned" by any one group; like all Wikipedia content, they are a colloborative effort of Wikipedia editors. As well, portals aren't created for the purpose of advancing causes, but for the purpose of providing related and useful information to Wikipedia readers in one logical location. If a portal does not do that, then it has no reason to exist. Jayjg (talk) 17:57, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The only person to have mentioned "advancing causes" here is Jayjg. Actually, if there's one thing this can really help with, it's fixing the ridiculously numerous gaps in Palestine coverage resulting precisely from the fixation on conflict-related items (though if it helps in NPOVing the more blatantly biased articles on conflict-related stuff, that would also be good.) - Mustafaa 21:49, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * How else would one interpret the argument that Palestinians need to have a portal because Israelis have a portal? Jayjg (talk) 21:52, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * In the context of WP:CSB, for a start. - Mustafaa 20:25, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Hmm. It didn't sound like that to me. If you wanted to counter systemic bias, you wouldn't have a portal on either one before you had one on Brazil and Russia and Nigeria and Sudan etc.  There's already far too much information about Israel, Palestine, and the whole conflict on Wikipedia, compared to more important topics; adding even more only worsens systemic bias. Jayjg (talk)  20:45, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Partly true - in the spirit of which I just wrote Wikiportal/Algeria. However, all this information (I think of some of it, like knowledge wars, as "Mideast-cruft") focuses exclusively on one aspect of Palestine, leaving many important topics empty for lack of a direct relation to the conflict; furthermore, the paucity of Palestinians editing here means that even conflict-related articles tend to lack a Palestinian perspective (tend to be openly anti-Palestinian, frankly.) - Mustafaa 20:56, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The systemic bias is more likely the result of what wikipedians know about rather than some mysterious jew cabal. I think it would be innappropriate to rename to Portal: State of Palestine. There's no Portal: State of Brazil, just Portal: Brazil, which includes the nation, geography, culture, etc. If you want to counter systemic bias a better way would be to try to write NPOV articles than to rename a portal which would be out of sync with all the other portals just to demonstrate a point. savidan(talk) (e@) 14:18, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Retarded —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.73.239 (talk) 21:27, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not a state and never will be. Naming it "State of Palestine" would be an action purely to piss-off people who accept the truth. If you make an article "State of Atlantis," you'd only be slightly less errored, but there's a chance that atlantis exists. For god's sake can people accept the damn truth. There are 55 established arab states and only one Jewish. Will they let us have at least a one-hundredth of what we're entitled to.69.146.92.44 (talk) 07:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Notice Board
I just recently noticed the Notice board for Israel-related topics. I think it would be a good idea if someone made a Notice board for Palestine-related topics. Blackcats 08:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree, so I just made one. - Mustafaa 20:24, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Palestine" vs "State of Palestine"
I do not have enough knowledge yet of what the purpose of a "wikiportal" is, but there needs to be a clear distinction between "Palestine" and "State of Palestine". A "Palestine" wikiportal needs to be just about that: Palestine, meaning the Palestinian nationality, history, struggle for independence, customs, politics, current issues, folklore, etc. The "State of Palestine" declared in 1988 is a very narrow (and currently low in relevance) aspect of "Palestine". I will try to adjust that in the coming days, unless anybody else has time to go at it sooner. The intro paragraph of a Palestine wikiportal should not at all mention the "State of Palestine" of 1988 in the first sentence no more than the first page of an India wikiportal should mention the Sepoy Rebellion in its intro sentence. Ramallite (talk) 17:10, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * That makes sense, but kind of begs the question as to the exact scope of this portal; would news, for example, of some incident in Jaffa be included? Jayjg (talk) 17:53, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't worry about that. If you're talking about daily news, almost all internationally noteworthy news coming out of Palestine unfortunately has something to do with Israel anyway, and usually vice versa. It's kind of what happens when two nations share the same piece of land I guess. Are news items updated manually each day, or is that section linked to some sort of automatic subscription service? If the news item happens to involve anything to do with Palestinians, from violence to curfews to food festivals to sports, then I expect it would be on this site, but if it's something exclusively Israeli, like for example Yardena Arazi giving a concert at the Society for the Preservation of Walnet-flavored Hummus headquarters in Tel Hashomer, it probably wouldn't be too relevant in a Palestine wikiportal. Ramallite (talk)  18:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * You see, this is where I get confused. Should the intro be rewritten? I was under the impression that you had to include the intro to the article corresponding to that wikiportal e.g. the Canada wikiportal's intro is the same as the intro in the Canada article. But, there is no article that combines everything into a general article about what we refer to as Palestine. when one types in Palestine, it goes to a disambiguation page. And from that page, there is Palestine (region), Palestinian territories, State of Palestine, and Palestinian National Authority. But no article that talks about everything in Palestine, the culture, the history, and so on. So there are two options : we can write the intro ourselves, and link to the disambiguation page in the "read more". Or move the disambig page to Palestine (disambiguation) then use Palestine to write about Palestine. Since "State of Palestine" is only about the proposed state, and "Palestinian territories" only is only about the region. Revolución 04:50, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Essentially, I'd say this is about Palestinian-related issues, anywhere in the region. - Mustafaa 21:46, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This sentence
Currently, the Palestinian National Authority, along with the European Union and the Arab League, envision the establishment of a State of Palestine to include all or part of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem, living in peace with Israel under a democratically elected and transparent government.

Is that really the stance of Hamas? savidan(talk) (e@) 14:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Probably not, but, at the same time, I've read nothing to suggest that Hamas has attempted to pass legislation which would change the Palestinian Authority's official stance. Until they do so, the above assertion stands. -- (Mingus ah um 01:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC))

Cleaning up/Merging/Splitting Palestine related articles
Seeing as this is the Portal for Palestine I thought it would be the best place to suggest and get feedback on setting out a plan to make Palestinian-related articles easier to navigate. There are many discussions on the relevant pages but perhaps here we can organise better and get consensus on the best way forward. I've spent a lot of time navigating around these articles and there seems to be little connection between related topics. For example shouldn't PLO Executive Committee include the Politics of Palestine template (horizontal navigation bar). I would suggest using a country infobox for State of Palestine and a seperate template (horizontal navigation bar) with Palestine or Palestinian territories as its main page to include geography, history, demographics etc. There could be endless arguments about what should and should not be attached to the State of Palestine page so I think until there is a viable Palestinian state then the best thing to do is to make Palestine or Palestinian territories the starting point. Pockets23 10:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Mercaz HaRav Massacre
In the article referring to the Mercaz HaRav Massacre, my reference to the mob violence by right wing Israelis against Palestinian residents of Jebl Mukaber in East Jerusalem after the attack keeps being deleted. I have referenced this from Ha'aretz yet it is being deleted from the portion reporting the Israeli reaction to the incident, leaving a lopsided view resulting in an article showing the average Palestinian as "bloodthirsty" with no mention of Israeli hardliners or intolerance--Orestek (talk) 20:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Missing history section
Isn't it important to say that the Palestinians have a short history ? after all there was no 'Palestinian people' before the 1940's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.86.95.113 (talk) 21:20, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

"news" infobox
if this isn't being updated it should be removed. untwirl (talk) 22:58, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Al Aqsa Massacre
To whom it may concern !

Youtube www.youtube.com/user/alaqsa81090

Mike Wallace 60 min. www.ikbis.com/abumojo/shot/157633 and www.ikbis.com/abumojo/shot/157635

Norway Doc. www.ikbis.com/abumojo/shot/157637 shots 157637, 157638, 157639, 157641, 157643

Please also see Facebook: alaqsamassacre eighttenninety

Kindest regards

alaqsa81090 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.227.75.0 (talk) 10:48, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Request for help, preferrably adm. help
I was editing the Racism in Israel article. I wrote a paragraph on a poll produced the the Tel Aviv Univeristy on Israeli high schoolers attitude towards Israeli Arabs; I erased part of a paragraph that I deemed as being unbalanced in favour of Israeli (the paragraph basically blamed "Arab aggression" for instances of Israeli Jewish street violence); and then I wrote on the Talk Page about what I regarded as pro-Israel bias in the article's style. A user, User:Cptnono, undid all of my edits. He left me a message on my Talk Page in which he asked me to provide further reasoning on my actions on that article. I did, and I agreed to discuss with him the paragraph I had removed and he later restored. But I informed him that I would restore the paragraph re the Tel Aviv University poll since it was properly sourced and worded. I would like a user and better yet an administrator to, please, observe further unfoldings on that article and its talk page. I have received in my talk page a message by another user who accused User:Cptnono of being a biased, pro-Israel POV warrior that is skilled in scalating conflicts. He also issued me a warning due to the paragraph that I had removed before. He's no administrator. Can he really do that? 186.212.104.16 (talk) 03:31, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Netanya Market bombing
Do you think the subject the article covers is notable enough for the English Wikipedia? Since I know there are many people with a lot of knowledge in the field that read this page, I would appreciate any help you could provide in the improvement of the current state of this article, in such a way that it would meet the Wikipedia standards, and/or if you disapprove of it, I would appreciate if you could post an honest opinion on the subject in the talk page of the article. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 16:15, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

RFD
Hello -- at Redirects for discussion/Log/2011 July 22 consensus was reached to retarget the "Pro-Palestinian" redirect from "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" to "Palestinian cause". On 14 August 2011 Articles for deletion/Palestinian cause was closed as "Redirect to Israeli-Palestinian conflict", inadvertently reversing the consensus reached at the RfD regarding the "Pro-Palestinian" redirect (the redirect was not mentioned during the discussion). In subsequent discussion at Talk:Pro-Palestinian it has been suggested that both redirects ("Pro-Palestinian" and "Palestinian cause") would be better targeted at Palestinian nationalism. It was also agreed to initiate a widely-advertised RfD, with notifications to relevant WikiProjects and participants in the AfD and RfD. Accordingly, your comments are invited at Redirects for discussion/Log/2011 August 26. Best, —Ireilly talk 15:30, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

2002 Herzliya shawarma restaurant bombing
Do you think the subject the article covers is notable enough for the English Wikipedia? Since I know there are many people with a lot of knowledge in the field that read this page, I would appreciate if you could share your knowledge and thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 02:08, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Template talk:Terrorist attacks against Israelis in the 2000s
In this set of templates - should we keep the general and vague word "Terrorism" in the headline or should we change it to a word (or words) which would help define more precisely the difference between (1) any type of notable murder committed against Israeli targets and (2) any type of Arab/foreign militia terror attacks and/or individual nationalistic-motivated terror attacks (committed not only by Arabs) committed against Israeli targets. Please help by suggesting alternatives in the discussion itself. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 14:12, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Missing coordinates
I've added the following to Portal:Palestine/Opentask, as part of WP:COORD project to get every article which could benefit from geographic coordinates geocoded, which I hope may also be useful and relevant to your project.

 * Missing geographical coordinates:
 * Category:Palestine articles missing geocoordinate data -- please see WP:COORD for how-to information

I hope this is helpful, and no-one minds my adding it. If it's a problem, please remove it. If anyone wants any help, please don't hesitate to ask, either at WP:COORD or on my talk page. -- The Anome (talk) 23:35, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Content split
Should this be split into one portal about the land, and one about the territories, to match Palestine (about the land) and Palestinian territories? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk • contribs) 08:29, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
 * There's no objections, so I'll begin spiting this portal. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk)
 * On second thought I don't think I'm going to be able to do this on my own. Probably the way we should do this is to move this page and it's sub-pages (sub-pages first or we'll break the portal page) to use "Palestinian territories" instead of "Palestine" in the title, then copy the PT portal page to the Palestine page. Redirects to the PT sub-pages created by the move will mean we won't need to be in a huge rush to immediately create new region sub-pages. The region portal can use applicable PT sub-pages until we create region sub-pages. Remember to follow Splitting and Copying within Wikipedia. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:17, 9 October 2012 (UTC)Portal/Instructions may help too. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:41, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't knoe what effect moving Portal:Palestine/News would have on the bot that updates it tough, so unless you know what you're doing, we probably shouldn't move that. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:30, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * For the region portal, we'll probably need to remove "Selected quote" and "Selected biography" for now, because those are entirely about the PT. The most of rest of the sections can be adapted to be about the region with very little difficulty. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:21, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

 * I suppose nobody took this seriously. At least i will say my word on it which is certainly opposing it, the same way wikiprojects Israel and ancient Israel and covered all-together.Greyshark09 (talk) 22:55, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I was notified of this by Greyshark. I don't see a point in splitting this? While the land and the territories are different, they overlap so much and contain more or less the same people. As such, we don't really need two portals. ~Araignee (talk • contribs) 19:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It's logical and would help tidy things up, but without cooperation from certain anti-Palestine editors on usage of the terminology "Palestine" as the name of the historical region, it is doomed to be another duplication. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:22, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've not dealt much with Portals myself. From the definition, it says this: "Portals complement main topics in Wikipedia, and expound upon topics by introducing the reader to key articles, images, and categories that further describe the subject and its related topics. Portals also assist in helping editors to find related projects and things they can do to improve Wikipedia, and provide a unique way to navigate Wikipedia topics."
 * Regardless of debated terminology across both camps, I fail to see how a portal for two Portals would be beneficial? The key articles, images, and categories are all the same, because Palestine, the State of Palestine, the Palestinian Territories, PNA, etc., all belong to the same larger group with the same overall wikilinks, etc. One would find the same articles, the same news, etc., for both of them.
 * Note that I don't really care what the portal would be called, just that there is not really a good reason to split it into two quite similar portals. ~Araignee (talk • contribs) 00:04, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Why should it be the Palestinian Territories and the Palestine region to share the same portal, as opposed to say Israel and the Palestine region sharing the same portal. Israel and the Palestine region would have about as much overlap as the Palestinian Territories and Palestine. Israel might have even more overlap because is composed of much more of Palestine then the Palestinian Territories are. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:22, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Comment - since there is no one to support Emmette's proposal (Emmette is supporting, 2 editors opposing and 1 neutral), shall we close it or wait for a couple of more opinions?Greyshark09 (talk) 19:54, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Flag in
Shouldn't the flag in be removed? This portal isn't just about the Palestinian Territories, it's also about Palestine region, so this flag could be misleading, and even offensive, especially in an article about the region. Imagine a if it were an Israeli flag in an article about the region. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 05:31, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is moot. The portal is about to be split. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:18, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really.Greyshark09 (talk) 22:56, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Template:Palestinian territory development
I made this template showing the development of the Palestinian territories. I think it could help in some articles =)

Greetings — Allrounder  ( talk ) 16:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Original research and misleading - the first map is a British commonwealth known as Mandatory "Palestine - Eretz Yisrael", and not "Arab Palestinian land".Greyshark09 (talk) 22:29, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Notice from the Portals WikiProject
WikiProject Portals is back!

The project was rebooted and completely overhauled on April 17th, 2018. Its goals are to revitalize the entire portal system, make building and maintaining portals easier, support the ongoing improvement of portals and the editors dedicated to this, and design the portals of the future.

As of May 2nd, 2018, membership is at 60 editors, and growing. You are welcome to join us.

There are design initiatives for revitalizing the portals system as a whole, and for improving each component of portals. So far, 2 new dynamic components have been developed: Template:Transclude lead excerpt and Template:Transclude random excerpt.

Tools are provided for building and maintaining portals, including automated portals that update themselves in various ways.

And, if you are bored and would like something to occupy your mind, we have a wonderful task list.

From your friendly neighborhood Portals WikiProject. Hope to see you there. Sincerely,    — The Transhumanist   07:41, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

title: Portal talk:Palestine


text:
User:Stream~enwiki

I am interested in writing articles about medieval manuscripts, Egypt, and birds. I am from Oklahoma.

title: User:Stream~enwiki


text:
Talk:Blues dance

Article name
The name of this article is inconsistent with the names of other dance articles. Shouldn't it be "Blues (dance)"? I thought that this article was missing for that reason and almost created a duplicate. In any case, it does look like this article needs to be cleaned up. Cswrye 02:04, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

 * IMO "blues dance" is the most common term, so I moved the article there. // Habj 09:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Copyright violation
On 01:48, 4 December 2004, an anonymous user (Special:Contributions/68.143.85.178) inserted copyrighted material from this page, with a notice that it had been used with permission. For such material to be used, it must be licensed under the terms of the GNU Free Document License, and permission must be obtained as described on the header of Copyright problems.

 * As such, I've reverted to the version before the copyrighted information was inserted, and will begin wikifying the article shortly. Jude (talk) 10:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Up/down
I can not agree on the notion that lindy hop is "up". On the contrary, you are constantly told that the bounce should be "down". // Habj 10:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

misperceptions
There are a lot of mistaken things taken as fact about Blues Dancing and Lindy Hop and their realtionship. Lindy Hop is a downward "bouncing" dance. Lindy Hop simply slowed down is not a Blues dance. Blues Dance refers to a genre not a single dance. It shares a number of elements with Lindy Hop since they were developed by the same culture, just as Jazz and Blues are related, and often share elements. Damon.stone 19:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

cultural specificity
This article seems to be largely discussing the American history of blues dancing, in the 'post-revival' era (ie post lindy revival), which has led to a few generalisations which really don't apply to the wider international swing dance community. It would be worth mentioning the blues dancing parties at Herrang (not sure if they had blues dancing every year at Herrang, or when it started). It's also worth discussing the blues dancing traditions in other contemporary swing dance communties. As an example, certain Australian cities have had strong blues dancing cultures within their rock and roll dancing scenes, or within the live blues music scenes _beyond the lindy scenes. This would need more research.

Could someone add the full bio details for the books referenced (eg dates published, where published, publisher, title, author/editor), 'complete works of blahblah' isn't useful if you're researching that particular point or wanting to support that point.PlainJane 10:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * It is culturally specific by necessity. Since the term has cultural, historical, and academic meanings the article should discuss these things. IF you want to research all the dances that are done to Blues music but don't qualify as Blues dance from the cultural, historical or academic standard prevelant among dance historians, cultural anthropologists, or ethnomusicologists who specialze in "native dance forms" then feel free to do so, but ensure that you properly identify it as such.

 * In regards to BDG reference citation... since all three of her major works on the topic address the point specifically and generally it is a valid citation... though if you prefer I could include pages 1-220 for DITD, 12-75 60-94 and 201-236 for BDB, etc. etc. etc.

 * Dave... it is "highly disputed" only by those who haven't done the research. Until they have actually read the books listed, interviewed ethnomusicologists, dance historians, and social anthropologists who specialize in this kind of thing, their opinions don't stand up to peer review of the academic world... I know a five year old who would highly dispute the fact that green leafy vegetables are good for you because they make him feel "icky"... should I go and delete the health benefits on wikipedia's spinache entry?

 * IF you want to change the meaning, add or delete statements given, please include citations that support your doing so. Simply saying that the citations aren't exact enough is not appropriate for deletion by Wikipedia's rules. 'citation needed' is the appropriate tag. The fact is every statement in this article can be supported by printed works, and even by video documentries, and interviews with first person sources.

 * I take the point that this is a discussion of a specific dance and music culture, yet it is not sufficient to assume that every reference to blues dancing today actually applies to blues dancing in every country in the contemporary swing dance world. If this is a discussion only of African American or American blues dancing, then it should be renamed 'blues dancing in the United States'. BTW, could you please sign your comments so we can keep track of who's making which points? Thanks. Oh, and it might be worth remembering that we're all friends here until someone kicks you on the dance floor and doesn't apologise. PlainJane 13:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Reworking the article
I have reworked this article to tidy up the written expression and manage the issue of cultural specificity, adding in references to the international blues dancing community. More work is needed here, and it's probably interesting to explore why blues dancing had didfficulties becoming established in places like Korea or Japan, where there were/re strong cultrual factors discouraging the intimacy of touch demanded by partners in blues dancing.

I am sceptical of the claim that there is an 'authentic' blues tradition (where? this is not specified) because blues dancing wasn't taken up by the white American mainstream. There is evidence throughout various dance scholars' work that it is not simply a matter of black dances moving to the mainstream - the influence of white media and culture and the very fact that black dances were taken up by the white mainstream has had effects on black dance culture. This is something addressed in work by Jane Desmond, Hazzard Gordon, Dixon Smith, Johnathon David Jackson, Tommy DeFrantz etc etc etc - even in Malcolm X's biography you can read descriptions of how black dancers felt about white dancers doing 'black dance' and how this then affected what black dancers did on the dance floor.

You need to make a stronger argument for this point, provide clearer references (which is difficult when you're dealing with oral history, of course) or reword the section to account for these issues.

NB Referencing generally: clearer referencing is required - please cite specific articles, books, etc. Page numbers would be even better. Please add full bibliographical information for references - publishers, place published, year published as well as author and title.PlainJane 07:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

???
I'm not sure what you are refering to re: Authentic Blues Tradition and not being picked up by mainstream White America... and then you cite sources that actually address this very issue... that is to say that media attention brought many Black dances out of the urban and rural Black communities and into Middle and Upper Middle Class White America... as such there were numerous changes made to how those dances were danced in White America which in several cases ended up removing a lot of the Africanist Aesthetic.

As to including more international representation to the topic, it would be nice if you gave some sources for this information. The people I've talked to in different countries seem to be more on the side of playing slow emotive music which is as often not Blues as it is Blues, and the dancing being done often has few or no ties to the traditions and aesthetic of Vernacular dances recognized as Blues.

This is certainly not the case everywhere, but some form of citation, book, website, videoclips etc. should be provided if you are going to include it in this entry.

 * I think this was a miscommunication - I've reworded the article to get rid of it. BTW you need to sign and date stamp these comments.PlainJane 13:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate attempts at globalization
Okay just so we don't go back and forth on this... in the US when the words white and black are used to refer to race they are capitalized. So is Blues when being used to refer to the African-American (read Black) music and dance genre. Just as Lindy Hop and Swing dance should both be capitalized when refering to specific names. The Wikipedia article in question is discussing an artform born and developed in the US, using terms particular to its culture. Stop changing them without something more specific than, "we don't use them this way in Australia." That is not a valid argument.

If you want to discuss Australia's unique contribution to the English language, or how your country dances to Blues music you are welcome to do so... but that does not necessitate or justify changing anything this article, a simple additional paragraph or two or wiki-stub would suffice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.236.86.163 (talk) 07:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

 * It is not a uniform convention in American scholarly writing to capitalise 'black', and certainly not 'white'. It might be more appropriate to use 'African American' if it's contentious. There has been an ongoing discussion/debate about capitalising dance names - lindy hop is not a proper noun, unless you're specifically referring to Lindy (Charles Lindbergh, someone called 'Lindy') hop. You don't capitalise salsa or tango, so you don't capitalise lindy. I can't remember where the discussion on capitalising got to over on the lindy hop discussion page, so I figure it doesn't matter so long as it's consistent within the article. PlainJane 13:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

 * And it isn't a uniform convention in America to not capitalize them. If you can't cite specific sources to back up your changes, just leave them alone. Our Governmental census forms and a number of scholarly works written on race relations and Civil Rights here in America capitalize White and Black. As to Lindy Hop being capitalized, it is a proper Noun, a proper Noun is a name of a person, place or thing. Lindy Hop is a specific thing and properly speaking should always be written as the Lindy Hop. General trends in reducing the formalization of words in writing and acceptance of slang in America has cause things like the Lindy Hop to go out of vogue and be refered to both in writing and in verbal communication as simply lindy hop, or even lindy. However since it is accepted academically as a proper name for the dance, just as Blues is considered a proper name for the genre, capitalization is perfectly appropriate. In this case of Blues it is actually not just appropriate but more correct since lowercase blues refers to the emoition/mood while uppercase Blues is the proper name of a genre of music and dance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.49.221.27 (talk) 20:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Citations, referencing sources and making this article really solid
This is a really interesting article and there are some great minds with lots of knowledge at work on it. It'd be nice if we could play nice and work constructively to make a well-structured, well-researched and really interesting article. I feel that the recent spate of edits/undos are the result of misunderstandings and can be overcome!

Citations - let's play nice
This article is largely based on heresay and speculation - or, as I like to think of it - on oral history, anecdotal discussions and amateur sociological and historical field work. If there are cases (as there certainly are) where we can't cite a published sourece, we should use qualifiers such as "as a social dance with very little published history or records, much of the blues dance history written here is the product  of collated oral histories, amateur sociological and historical research and other unpublished matter". Wikiepedia has a policy of not accepting unpublished or original research, but I feel that the unpublished stuff in this area is actually far more useful and often far more accurate than many published works... if there are even any serious published pieces discussing these issues. So I would be happy to accept unreferenced points, so long as they are qualified.

I have removed all the 'citations needed' from the main article (replacing them with phrases like 'anecdotal evidence suggests' (can't remember exact examples, sorry)) and suggest that we discuss ways of citing or making clear the fact that much of this information has no published record here on these discussion pages instead. This article needs that tag at the top that lets readers know that this article needs work, and needs to cite its sources, rather than cluttering the article itself with evidence of disputes over citations.

We are still needing full bilbiographic details for a couple of the books/articles/whatever they are in the list of citations. Using proper bibliographic details for published works is important because it helps readers find these sources again - and then read them! It's in our interest as dancers and dance historians (if not wikipedians) to spread knowledge of swing dances, and this would help. PlainJane 13:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Subheadings to deal with issues of cultural/social specificity and context
I have also added an extra subheading - I think it's worth discussing the history of blues dancing in African American communities in one section (in fact, I think it's really, really important - essential - to emphasise the black history of these dances. It infuriates me that many of these dances are read as 'white' dances with their black history neglected), adding a section on blues dancing in African American communities today (does anyone know anything about that? I certainly don't). It's important to use African American rather than black in these discussions as 'black' means something different depending on whether you're blues dancing in London, in Singapore, New Zealand, Australia or America. We are discussing an African American verncular dance, and we should make it clear that this is where the dance's history lies - within an African diaspora, and more specifically, within an African American diaspora.

We should also have a section on blues dancing in the post-revival lindy hop communities - I imagine that this might be a different culture than that of African American communties (seeing as how most American lindy hoppers are white teenagers and students in their 20s!.

And if it exists, the rise of a distinct revivalist blues dancing tradition in America - do people come to revivalist blues dancing today without going through lindy hop? That's not the case in Singapore, Japan, Korea, the UK and much of Europe. PlainJane 13:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Information that would strengthen this article
At this point this article does not discuss regional differences in blues dancing and music in the pre swing dance revival era. It would be really useful to have discussions of: - where people did blues dancing (ie what were the buildings like?) - examples of the music they danced to (particular musicians, the role of bands and record players, etc) - what sort of people did blues dances (was it a teenager thing? were there kids at blues dancing venues? did these factors vary across communities - eg was it ok for kids to be at blues dancing events in New York but inappropriate in Kansas City?), etc.

Is there a relationship with Juke joints that should be explored?

Were there slave dances from which specific blues steps or dances are descended, and how does this slavery affect the way blues dancing is/was regarded (eg there were some slave dances which were taboo for white eyes or for people who were not members of the community - Tommy DeFrantz disusses some interesting examples in his work)?PlainJane 13:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It'd be really great to flesh out the different historical/traditional/authentic blues dance forms in this article, listing specific names and brief descriptions of each. We're also lacking a discussion of solo blues dancing.PlainJane 02:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

 * You have added a bunch of information that needs to be cited/sourced. Some of it I don't dispute, but at least one source should be named for those who want to grow their knowledge... others I do dispute and if we are going to "play nice" I'll give you a chance to go through and add citation yourself before I mark it up as [need citation].

 * "Popularity" of Blues did not crest in the 20's though I also have some books that indicate as much but various music industry charts showing top ten lists show songs that fall within the Blues idiom placing highly and sales figure support the idea that Blues was selling more records in the 40's and 50's than it was in the 20's... what is different is the lack of focus as the sole form of popular music for Blacks.

 * I've already addressed the term Black versus African American... The term is not one I like nor agree with, and there is more than enough academic and social-anthro, not to mention common media that references Black.

 * How will we address the issue anecdotal evidence? There is so little material published about these issues, a formal 'citation' isn't possible. Yet it would be difficult to 'disprove' many of these points. Constructive suggestions welcome!
 * There's a discussion of the term 'African American' and its use on the African American entry which you might find interesting. PlainJane 01:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

As you can tell from the discussion in that article there is very little concensus here in the States on what "African-American" means. There is little dispute about Black refering both to ones ancestory being African and the sub-culture of those of various Black ethnicities mingling in America and combining with European traditions.

Jook Joints like Rent Parties and After Hours Clubs had alot to do with the formation and development of Blues dances. Jookin' is an excellent book to give you some insights into the culture of social dance in rural Black areas. This artilce could be expanded to gigantic proportions, but I really don't have as much time as that would take. I mean just going through my library of books and notes of interviews etc. to discuss anyone aspect in more detail would definitely be months of work. Unless someone is going to be giving me a grant to do so, it is just not overly realistic.

As to how we should handle some of this info that is either original research or oral tradition... I'm not sure. I'm firmly set on the idea that the article discuss dancing that is within the original tradition as being Blues dance(s). I also believe that dances that don't fit within this tradition should either have their own section that refers to dances done to Blues music or left out of this article entirely.

I have no problem with the inclusion of Oral material being included provided that it supports written works, or is not found to be contradictory by the people who read it... and that conclusions based on this information are not included... but even that is probably crossing the line toomuch. What are your thoughts?

I'm hoping to get some of the other big name dancers who have been researching and teaching these dances to add to the material... though most of them seem to hold wikipedia at a hands distance... and the earlier inclusions in this article I'd say easily demonstrate why.

ooops
Sorry about that changing of book titles... it was completely accidental, I thought I had made the proper change back and apparently I lost my connection. Not trying to be P.I.A. I had gone through to change references of culture to Black, and leave references to ethnicity Adrican-American, but I wasn't as careful with my word replacement as I should have been. Mia cupla.

Understanding the context
The article is specifically about Blues Dancing. While a certain amount of inclusion of things intimately tied or confused with Blues dance makes sense, using sheet music as an indication of what a dance was originally danced to because of name association is flawed. The vernacular dances predate sheet music which calls for the dances, not the Tin-Pan Alley form of creating Sheet Music in hopes of spawning a dance craze.

Any serious studying of Black music and Black dance will reveal dances that became associated with Ragtime music originated in quarters were the predmoninant music was not ragtime but often predates ragtime. Cakewalk for example which you site as being a ragtime dance (a music which started surging in popularity in the early 1890's and not being written until the mid 1890's) while the dance itself came out in the South amongst slaves in the 1850's. IT is more proper to refer to the Cakewalk as one of the roots of blues dance rather than a blues dance itself. The Slow Drag is very similar in that it's originas do not lie with Ragtime music, but with the rural music of the Southern Blacks the Blues which W.C. Handy reported hearing as early as 1892. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.70.156.69 (talk) 14:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Please read the article on Slow Drag. Please list your reference that the Slow Drag was danced to blues before it was danced to ragtime, as the references indicate. Cakewalk was not a "ragtime dance". Rather, it was a dance that was done to ragtime music. "Snake Hips, another "Dance" that is also often labeled a "blues dance" goes back to plantation times. Earl Snake Hips Tucker didn't create the dance in Harlem in the 1920s. He popularized it. These "Dances" that have been associated with "blues" have been used to dance to music that has changed, including ragtime and jazz, and changed again. Or, in the case of dancing them to rock n roll, such a watusi. They are not specifically associated with blues, other than in the minds of those who don't know, or haven't bothered to find out the history of the dances. Ignoring the history of the dances does a disservice to anyone who comes to Wikipedia for information. I will be providing a reference that states that "African" dance movements have in fact been used over and over again to different music.
 * I do not accept the argument that the history of a dance is "out of context" just because it inconvientiently was danced to some other kind of music.
 * A stated above - "Any serious studying of Black music and Black dance will reveal dances that became associated with Ragtime music originated in quarters were the predmoninant music was not ragtime but often predates ragtime." Again, when you find references to these dances being done to pre ragtime music, and, incidently, pre blues music, please list them in the article. While we wait for that "serious study", I have been supplying references from books written by "serious" researchers, most of which have been expunged from this article. Apparently, anything that contradicts the preconceived notion that the cited dances are "blues dance" is not welcome here.

Steve Pastor (talk) 18:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Handy, blues, and 1892
I am unable to confirm the 1892 date for the Handy report that you mention. Handy left Florence, Alamaba in 1892, but moved to Birmingham. Perhaps you mean 1903 in Tutwiler, Miss? Or maybe Ma Rainey in 1902? Both of their desriptions were pretty vague. "At the pipe works in Bessemer, for example, back in '92 and '93 the dusky huskies had one that went like this:" lyrics that have nothing to do with St Loius follow P 140 "On the levee at St. louis I had heard Looking for the Bully sung by roustabouts" p 118 Robert Palmer in Deep Blues writes, "He had heard the East St Louis Blues and other jump-ups and one-verse songs as early as 1892." I see that someone has added all of this together to come up with the info written here. But that would be wrong. What this means is that Handy's report of "the weirdest music I had ever heard" (blues?) was a decade later than written here. Perhaps you can tell me where in Handy's autobiography I can find that reference.? Steve Pastor (talk) 17:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's an update, but it substantiates Robert Palmer's account. "While sleeping on cobblestones in St Louis ('92) I heard shabby guitarists picking out a tune called East ST Louis. It had numerous one-line verses and they would sing it all night." page 142 of his autobiography. Still, not blues in 1892. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

dances mentioned as "blues dances"
Lots of "dance" names are tossed about regarding "blues dancing". I have been been researching them. I am presenting what I have found, along with references. Most often, the music that was danced to is not mentioned. When music IS mentioned, or when the decade(s) that the dance was described ARE mentioned, the music used may come as a surprise. I welcome input from anyone who has different information, but please bring it here from a substantial, verifiable source. Steve Pastor (talk) 19:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

This Article fails to describe blues dancing today
Somebody coming to this Article to find out about blues dancing as it's done today will find a lot of history, and a lot of vague talk, but no real information about blues dancing today.

The "Blues dancing today" section ought to be about blues dancing today. But all I found in it is vague language with no real information.

E.g., "Blues music is about common experiences. It is a sharing of human condition that is accessible to all." This idealistic slogan describes about a million other things too, including the entire Wikipedia which is, after all, a globally accessible collaborative work that includes a lot of information about the human condition. So is blues dancing synonymous with the Wikipedia? Obviously not, yet the assertion allows for that possibility.

E.g., "There are now blues dancing communities throughout the international swing dancing community.... The spread of blues dancing has been largely a result of individual dancers traveling between local communities and establishing blues scenes." Other than the reference to "swing", this statement applies to many types of dancing.

E.g., "There are ongoing debates within blues dancing and swing dancing culture today about what constitutes 'authentic' or 'true' blues dancing." True of many types of dancing (and many types of many other things).

Once you ignore all of the non-specific fluff, almost nothing in the Article in any way distinguishes blues dancing today from other types of dancing.

A person reading this Article will know something about the history of blues dancing, and he will know that it involves traveling dancers who debate a lot, but little else.

What types of movements does blues dancing involve that are different from other types of dancing? Not stated.

Is it a partner dance? Implied, but not directly stated.

Is there a specific type of dance frame or dance hold between partners (if they are partners)? Unclear.

Is it a lead-follow type of dance? Not stated. The Article mentions both freestyling and partner connection, which can only leave the reader guessing about exactly what type of lead-follow, if any, the dance involves. Does the freestyling occur when partners separate? Are the partners, if they are partners (unclear) freestyling together? Unclear.

Does the music have some specific rhythms? Not stated. We are told that in the 1980s a dance camp introduced slow dancing to blues, jazz, and early rhythm & blues. It's 2008 now; is this what blues dancers do today? Unclear.

How would one recognize blues dancing if one saw it done? Impossible to tell from this Article.

Rahul (talk) 18:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Steve Pastor, one of the editors of this Article, responded with a comment on my Talk page. I am inserting it here, and adding a response, to keep the discussion of this Article in one place. His comment was:

 * I have yet to find any direct mention of "blues dance" in any book that covers either blues or African American dance. I am endeavoring to include in the article information about both subjects. Readers can draw their own conclusions about the validity of the term. Web sites discussing the subject contain similar, nebulous information that was here when I became interested in the subject. This leads me to think that it is what someone wants it to be. Neverthless, I will present the historical context as best I can.

So my response is that we should not take non-information from other web sites and put that into the Wikipedia. If we have no clear information about Blues dancing today, it should be enough to say so. Some day, when we have authoritative information available, we can fill it in. But it doesn't make sense to me to fill in fluff into the Wikipedia with "sharing of human condition that is accessible to all" type of vague language that sounds more like a political slogan than a description of any type of music or dance.

Perhaps the section on Blues dancing today should simply state something like this: "No authoritative descriptions can currently be found that describe contemporary Blues dancing with enough detail to distinguish it from other types of dancing." Then the Article will remain one mostly about the history of Blues dancing, and will not have a long section about Blues dancing today which contains mostly non-informative fluff that reads like a marketing flyer. Later on, when we have any concrete information available, the Blues Dancing Today section can be expanded to include such information. Rahul (talk) 18:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. In general when venacular dances are described, such as Slow Drag and Fish Tail, music is not mentioned. When it is mentioned, or when you put it in historical context, it begins to look like there are no dances that were specifically associated with blues. Rather, older dances or dance movements were danced to what we now call "blues". I've been reluctant to take out the non-info fluff stuff, (although I've already taken some out) out of respect to whoever put it in the article to begin with. "Blues dance" is a more catchy phrase than "dancing to blues". But as the amount of authoritative, verifiable, historic information increases (W.C. Handy's autobiography, Jazz Dance, etc), I am more open to doing it. Would you like to start? Steve Pastor (talk) 19:30, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I will be happy to contribute some edits to improve this Article. But first, I will wait a while to see if anybody else adds any other comments to this discussion. Rahul (talk) 00:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Black Dance as reference
I have removed this sentence "As with blues music, blues dancing finds its origins in West African rhythms and movement combined with Western European structure and partnering concepts ref Emery, Lynne Fauley. Black Dance in the United States from 1619 to 1970. California: National Press Books, 1972 ref." This book does NOT contain any such statement, and note that there is no page number listed. "Blues" occurs only once in the index, in a decription of a number performed in a show. Jazz, on the other hand is listed about a dozen times in the index. Steve Pastor (talk) 19:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Blues dancing tips
I've written 12 Blues Dancing Tips. If you like them, please consider adding this link to the article. I can't add such a link because I'm the person who wrote them. VoteFair (talk) 19:35, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Verbatim statement from a book, clearly referenced that was deleted
Damon: What you removed from this article is a statement made in the listed reference. Because it can be seen clearly on the listed page in the listed book, I have restored it to the text. If you have information that contradicts the information from this book, feel free to add it to the article. Steve Pastor (talk) 16:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Statement is wrong
And that is the truth of it. None of the first person sources Mura Dehn filmed and interviewed that were alive in 2004, including the social dancers from the Savoy Ballroom could verify that information and highly regarded dancers like Frankie Manning, Norma Miller, George Sullivan, Sugar Sullivan, and people like Coley Wallace actively dispute this statement even if it is a quote from the book (and if it is a direct quote please enclose it in quotation marks), as does her documentry itself. In the section she has subtitled blues she talks about Rent Party Blues, Gut Bucket Blues etc. So she could not possibly be using the term to refer specifically to Ballroom (which is not what dancers named above referred to it as) so despite that it is in print, 1st person sources and previous existing evidence directly contradicts part of this statement. The second half is the assumption that *this* supposed reference of Dehn's was the reason for contemporary swing dancers to refer to all slow dancing to blues music as blues dancing, which is also not likely to be true since we have three other examples of the term being used. As a contemporary Lindy Hopper I know that this documentary was not the source of my use of the term, I know that it was not for a number of other respected dancers and teachers, and early adopters of the term blues dance. So yes, it may be something you took from a printed essay, but that does not make it accurate. We do know and have solid proof that she used the term as a sub-section title. That inclusion is beyond debate so I replaced your quote.

Knowing Terry I suspect there was either an editing error, or you are misinterpreting the statement made, the term Ballrooming was taken specifically from her documentary and used by contemporary dancers to refer specifically to the slow dance styles done in the Savoy Ballroom (the second which the original dancers called "The Walk" which was short for either The Savoy Walk or The Swing Walk (1st person sources appear to contradict each other, or it was referred to as both)). He and I had this conversation in Harlem as we were both interviewing the survivng dancers from this documentary.--Damon.stone (talk) 16:07, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * So, Damon, thanks for bringing this to the talk page. You might be aware of the fact that wikipedia is supposed to work on verifiable references. Other than what you were told by your teachers, coneversations, etc, can you substantiate what you are asserting? So, for instance, what WAS the source of the term Blues dancing, in writing, where I can read it for myself? If you would like, I can email you a pdf of that page and paragraph from the book (let me know where to send it). As far as using quotes, I could do that, but that is something that, according to wikipedia policy is frowned upon. It is a near direct quote. At the very least it should be acknowledged. It you want to refute it with other sources. I acknowledge that the author/editor may be in error, but don't think that simply deleting the statement is desirable, and that refuting it would be a better approach. We could make sure that the statement is attributed to the author of that section of the book, rather than in the reference. Is that acceptable to you?Steve Pastor (talk) 19:07, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

CHAPTER TWO: BLUES Rent Party THE ENTIRE ENSEMBLE Shake Blues SANDRA GIBSON Speak Easy LEON JAMES, AL MINNS & GUEST PARTNER Male Shake Blues AL MINNS Gutbucket Blues SANDRA GIBSON & JAMES BERRY (GUEST ARTIST) I don't see the term "Blues Dance" or "Blues Dancing", and have just made an interlibrary loan request to view the dvd myself. Steve Pastor (talk) 22:52, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

You are missing the point Steve, if the information is untrue or questionable, there is no point in including it. The point of the first part of the article is show that the term Blues was used to refer to the dancing. Each section of the Spirit Moves she uses the name of the dances or dance style not the music it was danced to. She sticks all these dances together and calls the section Blues which is what we are discussing. Dance is added purely to distinguish this article from the one about the music...

But I can not stress enough, multiple first person sources trump a single printed article. With no corroborating evidence leaving the statement out makes far more sense. But if you want to read a more accurate statement from Terry check these threads out. What you get is statements about where the term Ballroom and Ballrooming came from, as used by todays dancer's, a bunch of dancers talking about why they use the term Blues dance, and not a single reference to the term being lifted purposefully or accidently through confusion of the documentary. --Damon.stone (talk) 08:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

 * FYI "These provisional observations are based on discussions with "Sugar" Sullivan, Ruby Reeves, Vicky Gadson, Marthat Hickson, Sylvan Charles, and other former Savoy dancers from the period 1944-2004 to distinguish the different types of slow dancing at the Savoy that have recently been arbitrarily merged as one dance (the blues) by current so-called swing dancers. The latter may have possibly been misled by Mura Dehn's use the the term The Blues in The Spirit Moves (Mura Dehn, 1951), by which she specifically meant the dance called the ballroom but which the swing dancers seem to assume refers to all slow dancing to blues music." A Social and Popular Dance Reader. Edited by Julie Malnig. page 144. ISBN 978-0-252-03363-6 978-0-252-07565-0. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:47, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Checking the first yahoodi link, Terry made one post, listed here in its entirity. "terry monaghan Yehoodite Lindy: Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 67 Back to top Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:41 pm Post subject: Just like Lindy Hop / Jitterbug had different names and ways of dancing it all over the US, slow dancing varied also. The Stearns Jazz Dance has many instances of this. However at the Savoy Ballroom one of the ways of dancing slow was called "The Ballroom" which is what can be seen in The Spirit Moves. Although the number "Tain't Nobody's Business" was superimposed over the film of the dancing during the editing of the film, it is reasonably close enough to give some idea about how the music and dance worked together, and as has already been pointed out it wasn't always danced to 12-bar blues music. I don't have a copy to hand, but if my memory is accurate there is a particularly fine example of the "The Ballroom" being danced in this section by "Big Nick" (they guy with the sweat patch on the back of his suit jacket) and "Sugar" Sullivan. Last edited by terry monaghan on Sat Nov 01, 2003 2:38 am; edited 1 time in total" Steve Pastor (talk) 20:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

 * terry monaghan Yehoodite Lindy: Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 67 Back to top

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:44 pm   Post subject:    Signet wrote: Quote: The style of blues that was commonly danced at the Savoy ("ballroomin blues")....

I’ve come across no reference to the term “blues ballroomin’” in relation to the Savoy. I have heard various references to the same dance being called “The Ballroom” in the Swing Era, and which incidentally probably owed more to adagio than any ballroom dance. Austin and Austin were the classic Whitey’s Lindy Hopper's exponents, whilst Little Nick and Iva were the same for the Third Generation. It was one of two slow dances that evolved at the Savoy, the other being “Walking The Floor.”

Neither is there any record of it being called a “blues” dance back then. That misunderstanding seems to have arisen from Mura Dehn’s at times inaccurate captioning of her film “The Spirit Moves.” Pepsi Bethel taught the Jiving Lindy Hoppers a dance he called “The Blues” in the mid 1980s, which apparently was originally created for his Authentic Jazz Dance Company in the 1970s. On reflection it seemed to have had more in common with “Walking The Floor.”

I have yet to read a plausible explanation as to why current enthusiasts, who are of course rightly dancing in whatever way they choose to, try to generically group together such a wide variety of mostly unrelated dance forms, other than that they are all danced to slow tempos? Why not enjoy and value the original dances under their original names, or specifically change them in the cases where new interpretations have made them look significantly different? Sustaining what appears to be the current confusion, serves to largely wall off newcomers from the actual history of popular dancing to jazz music." Steve Pastor (talk) 21:19, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

 * If anything, this second post seems to confirm that what is in the cited book is exactly what Terry meant to write. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Another post "terry monaghan Yehoodite Lindy: Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 67 Back to top	Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:26 pm   Post subject: Damon wrote: Quote: Ballrooming and Ballroom Blues (and the other names associated with it) are all various takes on the title of that particular section in "The Spirit Moves." I’m glad we agree then that the terms “Ballrooming” and “Ballroom Blues” derive from Mura Dehn’s mistaken captioning in “The Spirit Moves.” It would not be the first time that new names have arisen from a misunderstanding! I also appreciate your implied agreement with the main point of my response to Signet, that there is no evidence that the term “ballroomin’ blues” was ever used while the Savoy was open. On the other hand there is textual and oral evidence that denotes the use of the term “the ballroom” or just “ballroom.” If someone wants to give whatever they are now dancing a new name, that’s their choice. But I doubt whether anyone can explain the sense in delving back in history in order to alter the terminology originally used, although I think it most likely that Signet did not intentionally mean to do this. Quote: ... for the same reason why the term jazz dance or swing dance is used. Convenient group labeling of dances that use similar elements/aesthetics. I’d go along with a similarity in relation to the terms “Swing Dance” and “Blues Dancing”, but without the “similar elements/aesthetics” proviso. A number of the included dances have hardly anything in common with each other eg elements of “Jazz [Broadway Style] Dance” and “The Grind” in the case of “Blues Dancing,” or “Balboa” and “Ballroom Jive” in the case of “Swing Dancing”. Blues Dancing” like “Swing Dancing” simply denotes a wide variety of dance forms executed to an associated genre/s of music. Thus in the case of “Blues Dancing,” “Slow Dancing” is probably a more useful term, and is at least self-explanatory to newcomers. Exactly what is meant by the term “Jazz Dance” has remained hotly disputed with little if any agreement, especially since Marshall Stearns went on the attack in relation to this subject in the early 1960s. I think thus it is best left out of this discussion. terry monaghan Yehoodite

Lindy: Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 67 Back to top Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: Hi Signet I've only just caught up with your response. Thanks for the acknowledgement! I would like to point out respectfully that you don't have to be a dance historian to know the difference between one dance and another. Or you could follow your arguement to its conclusion and have two types of dancing Fast and Slow (or if you prefer, "blues" being the latter)? Most people who dance find it more helpful to use distinctive names so they don't have play guessing games as to what their partner might be doing. The other questionable assertion you made is that most slow dances at the Savoy would be the "blues." The US has distinct regional cultural variations as no doubt you know. Out mid-west your would be right, but not necessarily so at the Savoy. Don't forget that Mura Dehn dubbed the music over the dancing clips in The Spirit Moves - which seems to be the sources of most of confusion on this subject - and unfortunately we don't know the precise tunes they were actually dancing to. We do know however that 32 bar jazz ballads were extremely popular there." Steve Pastor (talk) 19:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

== Nowhere in any of his posts does he state that the term Blues dance was used by dancers today because of Mura Dehn's documentary, he says that the Ballroom one of the two slow dances done at the Savoy was referred to as a Blue dance as an unfortunate side effect of her inaccurate titling.

Steve, Blues as this article refers to is a collection of dances, not a single dance. They have an undeniable shared cultural origination, are danced to the same genre of music (or music that is so closely tied to the Blues as to be given a hyphenated name). I have interviewed and studied under Harlem dancers, Savoy Dancers, and specifically Whitey's Lindy Hoppers, some even featured in The Spirit Moves. While my stance was developed directly by my interactions with those dancers, the ones from her documentary were very clear, the music that was dubbed was representative of the style and tempo of which they were actually dancing to. Now if you want to have an argument that Basie, Ellington, Ella, and Webb, never played blues then that is an argument we can have... but as it is you are using an essay to try and prove a thing that a significant number of blues dancers today would be able to refute from their own experience. The statement as you are interpreting it is unprovable. I mean really, how is ANY single person going to determine that what we are referring to as Blues dance is done so because of a misunderstanding of a documentary without interviewing a statistically significant number... which of course would also mean that the examples provided of Albert Murray and the magazine Amateur Dancer must not have had any impact on the dancers. I know I read the book almost a decade before I saw the Spirit Moves.

I must have missed where I said most of the Slow dances at the Savoy were Blues. Please point this out to me so I can correct it. The bands at the Savoy played Waltzes and Foxtrots at a variety of tempo as well as jazz and blues, and I would never state that either of those is a dance that fits the blues aesthetic.--Damon.stone (talk) 04:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

"Nowhere in any of his posts does he state that the term Blues dance was used by dancers today because of Mura Dehn's documentary, he says that the Ballroom one of the two slow dances done at the Savoy was referred to as a Blue dance as an unfortunate side effect of her inaccurate titling." from Damon's recent post Steve Pastor (talk) 00:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

 * "These provisional observations are based on discussions with "Sugar" Sullivan, Ruby Reeves, Vicky Gadson, Marthat Hickson, Sylvan Charles, and other former Savoy dancers from the period 1944-2004 to distinguish the different types of slow dancing at the Savoy that have recently been arbitrarily merged as one dance (the blues) by current so-called swing dancers. The latter may have possibly been misled by Mura Dehn's use the the term The Blues in The Spirit Moves (Mura Dehn, 1951), by which she specifically meant the dance called the ballroom but which the swing dancers seem to assume refers to all slow dancing to blues music." A Social and Popular Dance Reader. Edited by Julie Malnig. page 144. ISBN 978-0-252-03363-6 978-0-252-07565-0. the exact text from the book with the section authored in part by Terry, which is not contradicted by anything he posted on Yahoodi. Steve Pastor (talk) 00:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

No, but notice he has ample opportunity to make this same assertion amongst this "group of so-called swing dancers" and refuses to do so. Why not? Because it is pure speculation on his part by which he has no proof to support and stating that on Yehoodi would have certainly caused him to be called out. You are right that his statement was what you said it was... however that does not make up for the the fact it has no supporting evidence, and it isn't even a personal experience put into print. He is guessing about a thing which he could have easily interviewed a number of people on the forefront of the contemporary dance scene that would have supported or refuted his hypothesis. On these grounds I say it should be left out.--Damon.stone (talk) 06:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

 * "Neither is there any record of it being called a “blues” dance back then. That misunderstanding seems to have arisen from Mura Dehn’s at times inaccurate captioning of her film “The Spirit Moves.” Pepsi Bethel taught the Jiving Lindy Hoppers a dance he called “The Blues” in the mid 1980s, which apparently was originally created for his Authentic Jazz Dance Company in the 1970s."
 * I have yet to read a plausible explanation as to why current enthusiasts, who are of course rightly dancing in whatever way they choose to, try to generically group together such a wide variety of mostly unrelated dance forms, other than that they are all danced to slow tempos? Why not enjoy and value the original dances under their original names, or specifically change them in the cases where new interpretations have made them look significantly different? Sustaining what appears to be the current confusion, serves to largely wall off newcomers from the actual history of popular dancing to jazz music."
 * both statements from his Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:44 pm Post. Steve Pastor (talk) 16:38, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Let it go. It is one man's opinion with no facts to back it up with plenty of evidence to the contrary, even if it is not "wikipedia approved." Other than his single opinion you will find no corroborating evidence from any of the main instructors, competitors, of today, nor the Sullivans, who are still alive and dancing. None of them support that statement. The current statement is accurate, provable, and not simply one persons opinion.--Damon.stone (talk) 03:25, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Since IMO we've covered all of the reasons why what is in the book is what Terry (and Karen Hubbard, the coauthor of that section) most certainly meant to say, let's move on to how wikipedia is supposed to work. I hope you take some time to look at where you will find the following "Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikimedia principle and a cornerstone of Wikipedia. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors." Steve Pastor (talk) 18:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Right, which is why the change is better. Rather than making a definitive statement that the term Blues dance comes from Mura Dehn, he says possibly, because there is absolutely no proof to it. Without any verifiable evidence at all, the addition has been dropped from this article. Should I mention that Monaghan's (and believe me I know Terry better than you, this statement is his and his alone) statement of "so-called swing dancers" is a value judgment about them, their dance ability, and their authenticity, which defies Wikipedia's requirement for neutrality.--Damon.stone (talk) 21:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

 * If you saw the latest episode of So You Think You Can Dance, you would have seen/heard a woman who stated that Frankie Manning created Lindy Hop. You would also have seen some very poor quality "swing dancers" who stated that they were Lindy Hoppers. Those are the people Terry is referring to, I'm sure. Not you or any of the other people who have extensive knowledge of the subject. I do hope, though, that you can help to continue to improve the article, and all of our knowledge about the subject, by putting forth what is supposed to be the cornerstone of wikipedia - things that are "verifiable". I've even acknowledged that I would not object to "unverifiable" personal accounts to balance a smoothed out version of what is in print (which is why I paraphased in the first place). I hate it when people throw around extensive quotes from "the rules", or any of the almost countless pages of guidelines for this "encyclopedia" created by people who are supposed to be co operating with each other, but, I'd like you to consider that if it is "common knowledge", it should be possible to find something in writing that meets the critera. So, if the term "blues dancing" comes from instructors, where did THEY get it, and when did they start using it? And what is the "reference" for that information? Steve Pastor (talk) 18:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

 * I did see that, and I did cringe... but Terry is not nor has he ever been a part of the Blues scene. He doesn't know or interact with the vast majority of the movers and shakers and as such he has no basis for his statement at all. As such his statement is hyperbole and offensive as it paints everyone equally in the Blues scene as being ignorant, when the fact is he has no idea what he is talking about. You see this kind of arrogance among academics and specialists all the time. The assumption that because they have a doctorate in Chemical Engineering that they can make absolute statements about Nanotechnology even contradicting someone with a Doctorate in Molecular Engineering. Expertise in one field, no matter how related, does not equate to expertise in another.

 * Most of the top instructors are too busy actually doing the dancing and instruction to write and have printed treatises on the subject. Researchers and academics should both know when you study a vernacular art a significant portion is going to be oral history and what is written is still oral history simply transcribed by someone else. You'll get contrasting and contradictory statements. It is up to you to determine what the veracity of any given statement is, whether it is someone's opinion (as this so clearly was) and when it is a statement with some factual basis behind it.

 * So if you are looking for written accounts of where the term Blues dance came from... you aren't going to find much in the way of verifiable information. Most dancers themselves don't really care it is simply what we call it. Now people like Charlie, Heidi, me, Steven etc. who were researching and teaching these dances ahead of the curve of the scene could tell you why we use the term, but again you won't find it in any printed materials that can be referenced. Wikipedia is not supposed to be the source of original content so my saying I called it Blues because that was the music it was danced to when I first was introduced to it in the late 70's and early 80's is immaterial. Quoting statements from web boards is not really verifiable proof of anything.

 * Creating and maintaining this article needs to be as much about not including things that are unsupported (or statements that can't possibly be statements of fact such as Terry's) as it is about putting forward information.

 * For example you have included a lot of quotes from biographies that are really only tangentially related. I've left them despite my thinking that they are a distraction, being too tangential, often too concerned with music with just bypassing reference that people danced but no meaningful description of the dancing. Information overload, rather than adding to the knowledge base. I also understand that this is my personal opinion coming from my teaching philosophy, that information be contextual, directly stated, immediately relevant, and without distraction. Others like to provide information for information's sake assuming that every little bit no matter how minor adds something. I'm willing to follow your belief in this though it clearly sets this dance article apart from the others in wikipedia.--Damon.stone (talk) 22:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Blues dancing today
The section on Blues dancing in the contemporary swing dance community is weird. Why have we singled out Lindy Hop as a style that's accommodated "blues dancing"? It seems like what the section is actually about is some new style of dance that doesn't fit what would traditionally (as in the rest of the article) be considered blues dancing, but is referred to it by the same name. Either way, it's impossible to tell, because there are no references. Any help? Let's decide what that section is supposed to be about, pick an appropriate title, and prune it to verifiable statements. Sancho 16:35, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

 * My contributions to the article were the result of finding out about any relationship to dancing to blues. I think that's an important part of the article. SOME of what people do today is related to those historic forms, it would seem, depending on who is teaching what. I am pretty sure that the popularity among the broader population of dancers started with the Lindy Hop scene, and spread from there. And I also think this stuff has been going on in the broader population, but under different names.I have resisted the urge to post info from a dance journal, the movie "Urban Cowboy", and a Swing dance book by Craig Hitchinson that uses the term "sleaze dancing", which to me seems about the same thing as much of what passes as "blues dancing". Often what we see here in Wikipdeia are articles that were started years ago by "enthusiasts" who seem most interested in an article about "the scene". Note that all of the historic forms have refereneces. Maybe Damon will come around. And, um, now that I reread some of this discussion, I can see why I moved on to other things. Steve Pastor (talk) 00:32, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Steve. One huge help would be to find some reliable sources for this section, otherwise, it might make sense to trim this section down a bunch. I'll browse around, but I haven't found much yet. Sancho 19:44, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sleeze dancing is not blues dancing, any more than the freak dancing going on in this years HS proms were. There is simply no discernible relation from any kinesthetic or musicality analysis. I opposed the inclusion of current dance trends that could not be directly linked to the original dance traditions either by direct influence or by continuation of aesthetic for precisely the reasons Sancho stated, there is no direct connection, it was just something that came up along side, which for the most part has moved past the calling itself blues and now refers to itself as Fusion expressing the idea that is not a single dance so much as a fusing of multiple dances with their technique, music, and aesthetic as a platform by which to express themselves in their own way... which clearly puts itself outside of the blues genre by pretty much every identifying element.

Damon.stone (talk) 22:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Infobox?
In 2011 this article had an infobox, I suggest to revive it, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Not seeing a significant benefit of that over the existing image with caption. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:16, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I think it will help the article significantly. I favor the additional information an infobox will provide Montanabw (talk)  23:45, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The only significant differences between the proposal here and what is currently in the article are (a) a title over the image and (b) more whitespace around the image - not really a significant help. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:12, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Back to the original question. Damon.stone managed to install an infobox in 2011. Why, I don't know. Perhaps to elevate Blues dance to the level of Waltz? I think it was a good-faith effort to improve which should not have been reverted. An infobox should not add to an article but present key facts. I would like to discuss what we can say about time and place, derived from the article. I noticed that other dances don't even use infobox dance (with limited parameters), but infobox music genre, compare Tango, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:06, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * If an infobox does not "add", how does it "elevate"? Those words are to me synonymous. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:01, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * "Add" and "add". What I questioned was only "additional information", - it should contain no additional information but information from the article. Waltz does that well, and the key facts add to the article - at least for me. Even more so for Tango, but we will not be able to use that more detailed box here, because Blues in general is the music genre. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:49, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

 * Seems to me the infobox template needs to be tweaked (why "signature" in there ?) in addition to adjusting it for this article. But I favor adding it.   Montanabw (talk)  07:38, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I think more generally some documentation for the infobox would be useful (signature likely refers to time signature as opposed to written signature). In this particular case though, your additions are not correct - blues dance as a form is not limited to either the blues genre of music or the United States. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:31, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Um, the lead says, "developed alongside and were danced to blues music, or the contemporary dances that are danced in that aesthetic.' So yes, it is the blues;  just because someone might use ballet moves at a rock concert doesn't mean the dance genre isn't still classical music.  And the style clearly developed in the post- Reconstruction American south, so is that not "United States"?  Seriously.  Fix it, don't whine about it.  Montanabw (talk)  19:36, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That's oversimplifying, IMO. The parameter is "country", not "country of origin" (and even if it were, US would be too simplistic, given the strands from which the genre emerged and how it has subsequently developed). And as the article goes on to say, the dance involves not only the blues genre of music but related genres like ragtime and swing, and even more distant ones; if you read the last paragraph of the article, it gives a sense of the complexity of this issue, though it certainly warrants improvement. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:11, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * All of which are also American forms of music, albeit with African and other roots.  Montanabw (talk)  00:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Support infobox. It now also emits microformat metadata. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:48, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Blues dance