text:
Talk:Yakshagana

Note
Hi the image showing badaguthittu and thenkuthittu styles are the same ie from thenkuthittu style of make up.please add a genuine image of thenkuthitthu style. Hi It is great that I find the description of Yakshagana and Hulivesha etc,. It would be nice to know when and where the performance is? or e-mail address to the groups to find out their performance schedule. Thanks bjr

Image
I am adding the same image I found in Mangalore page. If anyone have better image please post it. --Shivu 08:13, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Removal of Dravidian topics template
It is pointless to remove the Dravidian topics template for personal reasons and I know why you removed it. Wikipedia is not for one person, but for everybody. It would be up to Administration to decide whether or not to remove this. Removing the template and stating that Yakshagana has lot of things in common with "North Indian" topics too is like removing a Khmer topics template for a Cambodian dance and stating that it has a lot of things in common with Chinese dance even though its roots are Khmer. Now I have personally created a Yakshagana page without knowing there was already one created. I have even went to the library to check out a book on Yakshagana to add to Wikipedia. It was a wonderful learning experience to discover that the Kannadigas have a classical dance since not much is heard about it, as well as the rest of Southern India. I notice that the cultures, arts, and languages of India are presented to the world in a false manner. Rewriting history, deletion of items, and moving towards a generic mix and match culture is not the way to go. It is the reason why that India still remains a mystery to the rest of the world, since people keep changing their culture trying to impress the world. People may detest Periyar Ramaswamy of the Self-respect movement, but please let me quote him by saying, "It is when we get rid of superiority and inferiority feelings we establish self-respect for ourselves."

Wiki Raja 15:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

 * As I said, the term "Dravidian" needs to sorted out in that template. What does "Dravidian" stand for? Dravidian group of languages? Yakshagana was performed based on Sanskrit dramas till recently. Don't try to push your viewpoints in whatever articles you wish. I appreciate your concern and hard work in knowing about Yakshagana, thanks for that. But confining Yakshagana as "Dravidian" is simply not acceptable.Gnanapiti 18:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

 * With all due respect, I do not know how many times I have given the definition for Dravidian. Many times Gnanapiti. So many times I have been asked the same questions, and I have given the same answer for the repetitive questions asked. Dravidian is a family of related ethnicities and languages. Just like Indo-Aryan is a family of related ethnicities and languages. I have even provided a referenced source for that. For one, you did not have a problem having Yakshagana posted as a link on the Dravidian topics template, until an anonymous user came on and stated that we put Tamil Eelam on the template. I would dislike (I do not believe in using the word hate, by the way) for Yakshagana or any other Kannada related material to be taken off the Dravidian topics template since we are all ethnicities whose mother tongues are of a commanality - Dravidian. Indo-Aryan ideas may have influenced some of our cultures, but that does not change us from being Dravidian. Let me give you an example, the early Pallavas and Cholas have travelled frequently into Southeast Asia introducing the Tamil version of the Ramayana by Kambar (which came from the Sanskrit version of the Ramayana by Valmiki). Bali, Cambodia, and Thailand, for example, demonstrate the Ramayana in their dances and martial arts. Does that make them non-Malay, non-Khmer, or non-Thai? Does that make them Dravidian or Indo-Aryan? We have certain dances in Tamil Nadu, one of them which portrays the Mahabharata (Mahaparatam in Tamil). It is a Dravidian styled dance form to an Indo-Aryan story. Anyways, I am not against you and strongly feel that you are an asset to this group. Everybody is welcome, and most definitely you. We all just have to learn about each other to understand our differences. Kind regards. Wiki Raja 20:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Comment I think more than anything else, there is a disconnect here. I get the feeling that all the parties mentioned in the above discussion mean well but really need to get down to discussing some important issues. Why dont we invite a larger audience to participate. One thing that we need to keep in mind is not all facets of Kannada culture is Dravidian. Kannada language I know originates from a proto-dravidian source and is undoubtedly dravidian. But Yakshagana is a different issue. Just because it is practiced and popularised by Kannada / Tulu people, it does not make it a dravidian art. It is an art form that has found expression among southerners who speak a dravidian tongue. It is hard for me to believe that people of coastal Karnataka would consider themselves dravidian. So lets first sort out what is "dravidian", what is "inherited by dravidans" and what is clearly not dravidian in Kannada culture. Edting warring and reverting is not going to establish anything. Please refrain from edit wars.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 01:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Comment : The problem here stems from a confused understanding of what the term "Dravidian" means.  Dravidian is a term that has many meanings depending on the context -
 * Dravidian - This was coined by Caldwell, a linguist in the 19th century to describe a group of languages(not 'ethnicities').
 * Dravidian 'race' - Periyar, the father and Godfather of almost all major Tamil Nadu political parties was a proponent of this theory.
 * "Dravida" in literature - There are sporadic instances where the word "Dravida" has been used in Sanskrit literature and maybe in Tamil literature. I dont know of any instance where this word has been used in any of the other Dravidian or Indo Aryan languages.
 * 'Dravidian political parties' - These are political parties that follow(or claim to follow) Periyar's ideologies and all of them are mostly confined to TN.

 * Now, the two most important points that that we have to observe is -
 * 1,2 and 3 above have nothing to do with each other.
 * Except no.1, none of the others have any takers among serious scholars.

 * The Dravidian 'race' for example, was purely a concoction of Tamil Nadu politics of the mid 20th century. It has no takers anywhere else in India or the world.  Periyar probably took over where Hitler left off.  Be that as it may, no scholar who studies human 'races' recognises a 'Dravidian' race.

 * As for the mentions of "Dravida" in literature, the point to be noted is that in each instance where it is used, the meanings vary or many times, nobody knows for sure what it means. For example, "Dravida shishu" appears in the ''Soundarya lahari" but nobody knows for sure what it means and it is open to speculation.  It is said that the Manu Smriti mentions a certain "Dravida" tribe.  But that doesnt mean that the tribe spoke a "Dravidian" language or even that they lived where Dravidian language speakers live today.

 * So that leaves us with only one connotation that is defined in black and white. ie., Caldwell's definition.

 * So if Wikiraja can explain which of the above 3 meanings(or maybe something else) he is using, it will clear many misgivings that people have here. I hope he is not using all the 3 or more meanings in the same sentence/context.  Sarvagnya 03:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I have left a message for User:SameerKhan who I believe is a an expert on linguistics. He will be able to provide more info on this issue. If anyone knowns an expert on "race" please communicate with him/her to help solve this issue.Dineshkannambadi 03:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Firstly, in regards to Yakshagana I am interested in promoting the dance since we never hear of a classical dance from Karnataka. In general we hear of the classical dances of Kerala, Tamil Nadu, and Andra Pradesh, but we never hear of a classical dance from Karnataka. My purpose of all this is to promote cultures and their arts which are rarely heard of. Secondly, Sarvagnya's statement that Periyar probably took over where Hitler left off. What connections does Periyar have with Hitler? Periyar was against the caste system and was for the upliftment of the Dravidian civilizations. Is caste system bad or good? Is discrimination against people of lower and backwards castes bad or good? Is fascist nationalism bad or good? Is religious intolerance bad or good? I suppose that the answers to my questions can be sought on the following links:
 * "Hitler, the Supremo" – Miami Herald
 * In Modi’s Gujurat, Hitler is a textbook hero – Times of India
 * 'Nazi' row over Indian textbooks - BBC
 * All’s in a name, if it’s Hitler’s Cross: Jews frown on restaurant gimmick – Telegraph India
 * The Return of Hitler As Hero: The World Through Cracked Lenses – Zmag
 * Enough said for now. Wiki Raja 04:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * As usual Wiki Raja continues to paste totally unrelated and irrelevant links. As I've said before, the connotation for the term "Dravidian" need to be sorted out in the template itself. I hope Wiki Raja answers my questions in the template talk page. Thanks. Gnanapiti 04:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Dear Wikiraja, seems to me like you misunderstood my comment on Periyar. I'll explain it in more detail some other time.  But for now, will you please clarify as to what your understanding of the word is.  Is it 1,2,3 or something else?  Please explain or this is going nowhere.  And again, I didnt bother clicking on any of your links above.  Just so you know.  Thanks.  Sarvagnya 05:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * That is because truth hurts. Wiki Raja 05:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Ok, ok I will clarify the meaning of the word Dravidian. Hey, wait a minute, didn't I just clarify it four times on Template talk:Dravidian topics on the following links below?

 * 10:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 10:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 11:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 23:36, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Here's one on your page Sarvagina:

 * 10:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Here's 2 on the Talk:Dravidian people page:

 * 20:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 18:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

 * And here's a whopping 1 on the Talk:Tamil people page:

 * 10:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Alright people, I am going to set the record breaker here for the last time:

 * The term Dravidian is a family of related ethnicities and languages. It does not connotate to a single language or ethnicity.

 * It does not mean a certain race since, there is only one race, which is the human race. Either my writing is incomprehensive, or it is a deliberation (factor of denial) which is causing some users to repeat their questions. I will not be wasting my time here giving lessons on how to read and comprehend simple English. Wiki Raja 05:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Almost forgot, here is another site I have found which could probably be the reason why there is so much rucuss and uproar in regards to posting anything positive on Dravidian civilizations:
 * Hitler "cool" in India.

 * Wiki Raja 05:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Who is this crazy person and why is he pasting spam all over wikipedia? India Rising 06:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

-

I don't know if my opinion will really clarify anything, but here's what I can say as a linguist. Some languages are related to each other; some aren't. That doesn't always mean the people who speak related languages are actually genetically related. It is true that some isolated cases of genetic research have shown, for example, that the Basques of Spain and France not only speak a language unrelated to Spanish or French, but are also genetically distinguishable from Spanish and French people. However, in the vast majority of cases, language, culture, race, and genetics are not connected so clearly. There are several examples to show this: take the Turks - they speak a Turkic language, but their culture is most strongly influenced by Mediterranean, Persian, and Arab societies, they do not look like other Turkic language speakers (Kazakhs, Turkmens, Uzbeks etc), and they are considered genetically most similar to other Mediterranean peoples (e.g. the Greeks). So what are they? One likely theory: they are historically Mediterranean people, who later assimilated with migrating Turkic speakers from the east, who brought with them Turkic and Persian culture along with a Turkic language, then later adopted Arab and Islamic culture, and even later, aspects of European culture. So does a Turkish dance count as a "Turkic concept", just because their language is Turkic? Or is it a "Mediterranean concept", because they are historically Mediterraneans? Why does this matter?

Let's return to the Dravidian issue. All we know for sure is that there are four major (and many more minor) South Asian languages that are closely related to each other but not related to the Indo-European family that spans most of the Indian Subcontinent. These were given the name "Dravidian". Now, while claims have been made that the speakers of these languages are also "racially" or "genetically" distinct from the speakers of Indo-European languages, there is no real scientific evidence for this. The genetic diversity seen in Indo-European speakers in India (as far as I have read) is just as varied as that seen in Dravidian speakers. The cultures of North and South India may have differences, but not always along linguistic lines. Sri Lanka is linguistically divided into Dravidian and Indo-European languages, but the cultural differences inside Sri Lanka are not as great as the cultural differences between Nepalis and Pakistanis, even though many of the languages of Nepal and Pakistan are Indo-European. Linguistic classification does not equal cultural classification. And about the genetics - people will always say things like "Dravidians are darker than North Indians, so they are genetically different." This is nonsense. I've seen people of all colors in Bangladesh, from white to dark, but they're all Bengali speakers (and thus Indo-European speakers). Clearly, there is genetic diversity but little linguistic diversity. Genetic classification does not equate linguistic classification. And if color really correlated with race and linguistics, then why are most Indians (even the Indo-European speakers) so much darker than, say, Germanic people, when they are linguistically related? Linguistic classification does not equate genetic classification.

Let's be realistic: like much of the world, the Indian Subcontinent has always been diverse - racially, ethnically, tribally, religiously, culturally, linguistically - the most likely situation is that there have always been many racial groups in the Subcontinent - ones whose languages are long gone. Successive migrations of people from all parts of the world have changed the culture, language, and physical characteristics of the inhabitants, but not in a uniform way. While there are people of all shades of skin color all across the Subcontinent, the languages that developed in each region were not based on the color of people's skin, but due to many other factors. Thus, white, brown, and black people of the same region would end up speaking, say, Telugu, or Assamese, regardless of what their genetic makeup might be. Compare this to the situation in the US, where people of many different ethnicities and races have come to one country, and for the most part, they speak Indo-European languages. Whether they are white, black, brown, yellow, red, whatever color... the majority speaks English or Spanish. India has always been this way - many different people from different origins come and end up assimilating.... some ended up adopting local Indo-European languages and others Dravidian ones, but not because they were genetically or racially one way or another.

So I'm not going to be able to take a side, but that's my (educated - at least on the linguistic side) opinion. --SameerKhan 11:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree that skin color is not the issue. I have seen black, brown, and olive complected Tamils. It is ridiculous to base ethnicity on skin color. However, differences in physical features (ie. facial features) are a factor amongst different ethnicities, some more than others. As for the term Dravidian, it does not denote a single language, nor does it denote a single ethnicity. As I have been repeatedly stating, the term Dravidian is a family of related ethnicities and languages. Just like Indo-Aryan is a family of related ethnicities and languages. On can also say that India is like Europe, where we have in the North Scandinavians and in the South Medditeraneans. Wiki Raja 20:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks a lot SameerKhan for your learned input. I really appreciate your concern. Now, Wiki Raja, I had asked you some questions in the template talk page. I'm repeating them here, just so you know.
 * Please prove that there is something called "dravidian race" or "dravidian ethnicity" which is different from rest of India.
 * Please prove that so called "Dravidian culture" is all the way different from rest of India.
 * Please prove that Kannadigas belong to your "Dravidian race".
 * Prove that Kannadigas are more "ethnically related" to Tamilians or "Dravidians" for that matter, than to Marathas or "Indo Aryans".
 * As far as your interest towards articles on South India is concerned, I really appreciate your work. But the term "Dravidian" as used by you, is not acceptable on all articles.Gnanapiti 16:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Why do you keep asking me the same questions I keep answering? As per request I will repeat it again with a source:

 * "Dravidian has avenerable history as a label, and given that in modern times it has been employed in studies of Indian phenomena as diverse as language and temple architecture, literature and systems of land tenure, religion and race.” It can also be said that Central India including parts of Northern Karnataka and Andra Pradesh were a Frontier zone of some sort thus allowing certain fusions of Dravidian and Indo-Aryan cultures in some aspects."

 * I am not saying that the term Dravidian is a single ethnicity, or a single language. I am not saying that Tamils and Kannadigas are the same. All I am saying is that the term Dravidian is a family of related ethnicities and languages. Within this family, some ethncities and languages may be closely related, while others may not be so closely related. Now, you admit that you are repeating your questions. This will be my last time repeating my answers. Either there is some kind of misunderstanding or miscomprehension going on here, or this is a deliberate ploy to tantalize me to post something not so polite (which I would not stoop to that level, unlike others). Lastly, I do not know why you keep using the term race. Race is equivalent to species. The species that we all belong to are called Homo-sapiens. Therefore, there is only one race which is the human race.

 * Kind Regards. Wiki Raja 20:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The term Dravida specifically refers to Tamils and tamil nadu, in fact the word tamil itself is derived from the word dravida. Dravida as a identity for the other languages of the same family is only generic. Prof Caldwell didnt have a better name so he named these as dravidian languages. Kannada and Telugus dont consider themselves dravidian even though they accept that their languages have dravidian origins. It smacks of racial prejudice. Enough of your crappy one race philosophies. 59.92.32.86 21:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Hello 59.92.32.86, please refrain from doing original research. Please look here for wikipedia's guidelines. Also, do not try to instigate other authors by using foul languages. I believe User Wiki Raja has given a credible source. And I particularly agree his point about race :) Cheers!Praveen 22:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

-

Wikiraja's dubious reference
"Dravidian has avenerable history as a label, and given that in modern times it has been employed in studies of Indian phenomena as diverse as language and temple architecture, literature and systems of land tenure, religion and race.”  Ok. So what this Deshpande guy is saying is not different from what I am saying.  The word "Dravida" has different meanings depending on context.  For example a temple can be built in Dravidian style regardless of the mother tongue of the guy building it.

''"It can also be said that Central India including parts of Northern Karnataka and Andra Pradesh were a Frontier zone of some sort..." What sort?

''"...thus allowing certain fusions of Dravidian and Indo-Aryan cultures in some aspects." '' Ok. So?

And finally where does this reference support your claim that Dravidian is a family of related 'ethnicities(whatever the hell that is supposed to mean).'

Like the editor above says, all mentions of 'Dravida' earlier than Caldwell only seem to(even that is not conclusive) refer to Tamilians. No other people anywhere in the world have used it to describe themselves. Stop your Tamil revisionist crap.

It is thanks to people like you that millions of kids born in TN are still taught that 'Tamil is the mother of all languages', 'Tamil is the oldest language'(for God's sakes, even the WP page on Tamil had this BS until recently!!) and stupidly parrot that crap wherever they go much to the amusement and irritation of others.

It is thanks to people like you that many from TN believe that Tamil and Tamil 'culture' is the be all and end all of everything. No wonder then, that you hadnt heard of Yakshagana. No wonder then, that you still think Carnatic music and Bharatnatya were inventions of Tamil people.

If you hadnt heard of Yakshagana, dont blame 'Indo-Aryans' for it. Blame yourself and the likes of your Periyar for it. It is a crying shame that being from neighbouring TN, you hadnt even heard of Yakshagana. Stop blaming others for your ignorance.

Thank people like us on WP who've been fighting this systemic bias that people like you bring to WP. But for people like us(not just kannadigas on wp - i must commend Tamil editors like srkris, arvind and a few others too), you would probably never have heard of Yakshagana and continued to bask in your own ignorance.

As for Periyar, it is no secret that his actions against Brahmins was motivated more by some sort of dementia than any real concern for the 'downtrodden'. It is no secret that his own Naiker caste(and other so called non brahmin upper castes of TN) did and continues to play its role in perpetuating the caste wars in TN.

Can anybody from TN honestly deny these accusations? Stop even trying to defend Periyar's theories. Periyar's theory of a Dravidian race was motivated by cheap politics and nothing else. Hitler concocted his own Aryan race out of thin air and left the field open for Periyar to conveniently conjure up a 'Dravidian' race. Little wonder, that people outside TN havent even heard of these crappy theories. Yes 'crappy' is the kindest word I can use for Periyar's race theories.

'And coming back to the point, your reference proves nothing. Stop concocting a 'Dravidian ethnicity ' to suit your convenience.' Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Comment on citation-->Deshpande, Madhav M.; Peter Edwin Hook (1979). Aryan and non-Aryan in India

Sir, I read this citation and am trying to piece together what meaning it conveys. The issue of dravidian race or even any race is a very vast topic invloving historical developments, genetics, migrations and so on. A general and vague citation from one or two scholars provides no conclusive evidence to your claim that all South Indians are dravidians. This is not a topic that can be so easily concluded and hastily tagged. I think a good option would be to open a discussion on India Topics discussion board  where the debate will be more visible. thanksDineshkannambadi 15:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

In the meantime please refrain from adding this tag to other pages. Perhaps a tag "South Indian topics" would be more suitable. I would like to take this opportunity to learn more about the "dravidian race" myself (not being very knowledegable as of now) and this is a fine opportunity as any.Dineshkannambadi 15:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

 * As someone else had pointed out, it would then beprobably be a good idea to change the title to Dravidian and South Indian topics. Hopefully, every party can agree with that. Wiki Raja 18:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

 * While we should continue to search for more information to fully understand the exact nature of the "dravidianness" of South Indians (which I presume effects us to various degress depending upon whether we are Tamils, Kannadigas, Telugus or Malyalis), tagging those topics that are unique to Tamils as "dravidian topics", those topics that are common to more than one state (if it includes Tamil Nadu) as Dravidian and South Indian topics, those topics that are presently not popular in Tamil culture as just "South Indian topics" may be the way to go, atleast for now, to ensure the blocks on the respective articles come off. Just a suggestion from the top of my head.Thanks.Dineshkannambadi 19:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

 * No. Kannada, Tulu, Brahui etc., may be 'Dravidian' topics. But Bharatanatya, Yakshagana, Carnatic music etc., are not Dravidian topics.  So either rename this as 'South Indian topics' or simply delete this template.
 * And one more thing.. if anybody creates or if there already is, a, I will definitely add all these arts to that template too and I hope nobody will start complaining and replay this whole discussion when that happens.  Sarvagnya 19:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Seems like the two articles that are under debate are Carnatic music and Bharatanatya. Yakshagana is unique to Karnataka (and to a very small extent in Kerela). So this surely cant be the show stopper. Languages are not an issue.Dineshkannambadi 20:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Is it possible to specify that a "topic" only indicates present or long term participation of a group of people and does not imply an "origin". Its common knowledge that Carnatic music finds its roots in ancient Indian music not unique to any region of India. Bharatanatya's predecessor "Natya Shastra" was an Indian art again not unique to any particualr region.Dineshkannambadi 20:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Dinesh, it is not only a matter of pointing out the origins. The thing here is that, for example, "Yakshagana" may be of Karnataka but Yakshagana is not of Kannada.  Kalaripayattu may be of Kerala; but not of Malayalam.  Further, Kannada may be "Dravidian", that doesnt mean "Karnataka" is "Dravidian".  Majority of the languages spoken in South India may be "Dravidian", but "South India" is not "Dravidian".  Like the ip editor asked on another page, if Bharatanatya becomes popular in China, will it become a Chinese art?  Similarly just because it is popular in South India doesnt mean it is "South Indian" or "Dravidian".  Just because cricket is popular doesnt mean that it is an "Indian" game.  Sarvagnya 21:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Dear Sarvagnya, please refrain from comparing someone with Hitler. BTW: You have just lost the argument based on [| Godwin's law] :). Praveen 22:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Godwin's law... uh. huh. Is this the best defense you could cobble up for your 'thanthai'.  Anyway, if you dont have anything germane to add to this discussion, please, if you could take your banter offline.  Thanks.  Sarvagnya 01:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not defending anybody here. Please don't try to manipulate things. I don't know what you are talking about by saying he is our thanthai. Could you tell me why you feel that way? Here, authors are supposed to be disinterested. Its not a forum where one could use it to push his POV and 'defend' it. I hope that you do not compare someone with Hitler anymore since you have learned something (Godwin's law) new now. I felt this was germane to the discussion.Praveen 18:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Informative
This is really nice article about Yakshagana. It seems like its related to kathakali, but yet it looks distinct and awesome. Thanks for enlightening me with this new informationPraveen 22:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I understand race and arts are entirely different. Arts can be picked up by any one or any group of people purely based on location and availability of opportunities, socio religious movements and so on. I also understand that the art does not belong to or become a property of that race or group who inherited the art. But surely one has to give credit for local variants and influences that creep into arts when they are practiced in a certian location for a long period of time. For instance Bharatanatya in Tamil Nadu is not exactly the same as in South Karnataka. Carnatic music in South Karnataka or even Vijayanagara Empire of 14-16th century is not the same as in Tamil Nadu, Hindusthani music also may be slightly different in North Karnataka when compared to that in some of the Gharanas in U.P. There are bound to be some variants. I think we should focus on this aspect in these articles rather than tagging it. Given the socio-religious interactions in India over the last 2000 years or so, even to call Carnatic music as "topic of South India" would then be erroneous, in which case these articles should be free of tags and simply focus describing "local variants" and influences from other similar arts.Dineshkannambadi 01:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. On the same note, if Carnatic music can be South Indian topic, so can Hindustani music.  But am not sure Wikiraja feels the same way.  Both this template and the wikiproject for Dravidian 'civilisations' is a confused mish mash.  Terms like 'culture', 'civilisation', 'ethnicity' etc., are too loose for WP purposes.  Unless, somebody can explain them in no uncertain terms, I feel that these templates are just a waste of time.  Sarvagnya 01:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Response to Sarvagnya
"Dravidian has avenerable history as a label, and given that in modern times it has been employed in studies of Indian phenomena as diverse as language and temple architecture, literature and systems of land tenure, religion and race.” Ok. So what this Deshpande guy is saying is not different from what I am saying. The word "Dravida" has different meanings depending on context. For example a temple can be built in Dravidian style regardless of the mother tongue of the guy building it. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

And Dravidian people can speak Indo-Aryan languages like in Maharastra and Gujurat. Therefore, as you argue about the Manu Smriti mentioning about the Pancha Dravidias (Tamils, Telugus, Kannadigas, Marathis, and Gujuratis). You stated that Dravidian is only a group of languages and not a group of ethnicities. If that is the case, can you explain to me why Marathi and Gujurati languages are considered Indo-Aryan languages? If Marathi and Gujurati are Indo-Aryan languages, and Tamil, Telugu, and Kannada are Dravidian languages – what does the Manu Smriti mean by Pancha Dravidas? Could it mean the 5 Dravidian ethnicities? I am beginning to see a contradiction here on your part.

"It can also be said that Central India including parts of Northern Karnataka and Andra Pradesh were a Frontier zone of some sort..." What sort? - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

That is for you to explain to me. "...thus allowing certain fusions of Dravidian and Indo-Aryan cultures in some aspects." Ok. So? - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

What happened? No, rebuttle here?

And finally where does this reference support your claim that Dravidian is a family of related ethnicities (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean). - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Mind your language.

Like the editor above says, all mentions of 'Dravida' earlier than Caldwell only seem to(even that is not conclusive) refer to Tamilians. No other people anywhere in the world have used it to describe themselves. Stop your Tamil revisionist crap. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Mind your language, and show more civility & and tolerance towards other ethnic groups.

It is thanks to people like you that millions of kids born in TN are still taught that 'Tamil is the mother of all languages', 'Tamil is the oldest language'(for God's sakes, even the WP page on Tamil had this BS until recently!!) and stupidly parrot that crap wherever they go much to the amusement and irritation of others. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not say that. You said that. Also, please refrain from personal attacks against me and my ethnicity.

It is thanks to people like you that many from TN believe that Tamil and Tamil 'culture' is the be all and end all of everything. No wonder then, that you hadnt heard of Yakshagana. No wonder then, that you still think Carnatic music and Bharatnatya were inventions of Tamil people. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Once again, I did not say that. You said that. I am surprised that you actually believe that Tamil culture is the be all and end all of everything. As for Bharatanatayam, there are many sources which state that it is of Tamil origins. Can you show me at least one source that Bharatanatayam is of Kannadiga origins? As for Carnatic music, please do not get that mixed up with Karnataka. Surprise, surprise, take a look at this map here. This was British India in 1857. It seems that Tamil Nadu and Andra Pradesh was called Carnatic back then and that is where Carnatic music came from.

If you hadnt heard of Yakshagana, dont blame 'Indo-Aryans' for it. Blame yourself and the likes of your Periyar for it. It is a crying shame that being from neighbouring TN, you hadnt even heard of Yakshagana. Stop blaming others for your ignorance. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not put words in my mouth. Also, please do not accuse of things I do not do. That is called a personal attack, and more over it is considered lying. FYI, I was in a library and came across a book on Yakshagana. That was the first time I have hear of that dance. So, I have decided to write up a page on Yakshagana. To my surprise Gnanapiti left a message rebuking me for creating a page when I there was already one created (which I didn’t know). Also, that is when I made a new friend. Back to the blame game, I have not blamed anyone what so ever. Also, in regards to the Dravidian arts being recognized, the Malayalees did an awesome job in promoting Kathakali and Mohiniattam. Furthermore, they have even went to the extent to promote Kalarippayattu out of their own pockets (without New Delhi’s funding). As for the dance of Kuchipudi, the people of Andra Pradesh also did a great job in promoting their art. As for Bharathanatayam, that too was well promoted in Tamil Nadu. Now, for the Yakshagana question. Who promoted that dance? Nobody? Stop blaming other people.

Thank people like us on WP who've been fighting this systemic bias that people like you bring to WP. But for people like us (not just kannadigas on wp - i must commend Tamil editors like srkris, arvind and a few others too), you would probably never have heard of Yakshagana and continued to bask in your own ignorance. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You're joking right? Also, what's with the personal attacks?

As for Periyar, it is no secret that his actions against Brahmins was motivated more by some sort of dementia than any real concern for the 'downtrodden'. It is no secret that his own Naiker caste(and other so called non brahmin upper castes of TN) did and continues to play its role in perpetuating the caste wars in TN. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I do not believe in a caste system, so please stop the caste system politics. Secondly, what do you mean by other so called non brahmin upper castes? Are you against anyone who is not Brahmin now? It seems to me that you are offended by Periyar standing up to injustice. For more info, please visit www.periyar.org. Enjoy.

Can anybody from TN honestly deny these accusations? Stop even trying to defend Periyar's theories. Periyar's theory of a Dravidian race was motivated by cheap politics and nothing else. Hitler concocted his own Aryan race out of thin air and left the field open for Periyar to conveniently conjure up a 'Dravidian' race. Little wonder, that people outside TN havent even heard of these crappy theories. Yes 'crappy' is the kindest word I can use for Periyar's race theories. - Sarvagnya 22:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You're joking again right? Also, I notice that you are obsessed with the word "concocted". In regards to comparing Hitler to Periyar, one must definitely be on concoctions. Lastly, please let me leave you with a wonderful quote from Periyar:

 * "I express, plainly and openly, thoughts which occur to me, and which strike me as right. This may embarrass a few; to some this may be distasteful; and a few others may even be irritated; however, all that I utter are proven truths and not lies..’’ – E.V. Ramasami Naicker

Wiki Raja 03:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

 * It takes one ass**** to support another ass****, with both of them bordering on lunacy. Soriyar was no great Jesus. 59.92.74.69 06:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

- Please show some respect to other users and to yourself by not cursing or putting others down. Wiki Raja 08:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "We are fit to think of `Self-Respect' only when the notion of superior and inferior caste is banished from our land." - E.V. Ramasami Naicker

 * Carnatic music Lets not get carried away with British maps. British drew their maps the way they saw it in the 18th - 19th century time frame. By the way the non-anglasized name for the music is not "carnatic music", its Karnataka Sangeetha Shastra-- A.S. Panchapakesa Iyer. But that itself does not mean it originated in Karnataka either given its ancient history.Dineshkannambadi 17:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Bharata natyam As for Bharatanatayam, there are many sources which state that it is of Tamil origins. Can you show me at least one source that Bharatanatayam is of Kannadiga origins?

Can you prove conclusively from non-Tamil sources that it originated in Tamil Nadu? (no offence meant here, just trying to examine the issue more objectively) Can anyone prove sage Bharata was from Tamil Nadu. It was originally written and codified in Sanskrit writing, Natya Shastra, a non dravidian language)Dineshkannambadi 17:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * So now you want a neutral source? Should it be more like the work, "history of kannada", by Dr. Kamat (which is used as reference on every kannada article)? Anyways, please see my reference in "Bharathanatyam" article (the encyclopedia britannica link. You will need a subscription to see). Praveen 15:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

My Verdict
Dineshkannambadi, I do not know why I am the one who has to show physical proof from references, when no one else has even shown an inch of referenced sources in their claims. Even after being suggested by a good person on the situation of name change for the template we are talking about, I have went half ways to accept the change of name from Dravidian topics to Dravidian and South Indian topics. However, you all are not pleased, including yourself, Dineshkannambadi. Questions have been asked of me in which I have legitimately answered with given sources, only to be asked the same questions again. Is this some kind of game? Also, I have never attacked anyone on the basis of ethnicity, nationality, religion, etc., but the audience and especially Sarvagnya have taken the liberty to do so. So, tell me, is there some sort of biasedness going on in here?

Coming back to the question. The Natya Shastra is not the sole book of Bharatanatayam and neither can Bharata Muni be the one and only founder of Bharatanatayam since this style of dance has been in existence well before. However, Bharata Muni is credited to his contribution and excel of the dance. Prior to the 20th century, it was originally called Cathir. It was not till the early 1900s when this dance form was brought back to life by the Tamil Brahmin community who were well veresed in the Sanskrit language and thus giving the name Bharatanatayam. Below are again, my referenced sources on Bharatanatayam and Carnatic music:

Bharatanatayam: ''"In historical times there is abundant evidence of the importance of dance as a performing art in Indian culture generally, and specifically in Tamil society where Bharata Natyam originated and evolved. Surviving texts of the golden age of Tamil literature and poetry known as the Sangam Age such as the Tolkappiyam, as well as the later Silappadikaram, testify to a variety of dance traditions which flourished in these times. The latter work is of particular importance, since one of its main characters, the courtesan Madhavi, is a highly accomplished dancer. The Silappadikaram is a mine of information of ancient Tamil culture and society, in which the arts of music and dance were highly developed and played a major role. When the Pallavas of Kanchipuram and the Pandyas of Madurai were in power during the sixth through ninth centuries A.D., a great transformation in religious consciousness occurred, known as the Bhakti movement. It was an upsurge of fervent reiligous devotionalism centering on a personal deity such as Siva which originated among the Tamils and eventually spread to other parts of the Indian sub-continent" - Kilger, George (1993) Bharata Natyam in Cultural Perspective'' Manohar American Institute of Indian Studies, New Delhi, p. 2.

This style of dance can also be seen in the dance forms of Kerala and Andra Pradesh. But is absent in the dances of Northern India. Now, some people will idiotically say, "well, there are Punjabis, and Chinese, and Gujuratis who are learning Bharata Natayam. Then isn't it a Northern Indian and a Chinese dance?" This is the same as asking if a Tamil learns Kathak, would that automatically make Kathak a Tamil dance?

Carnatic music: "The popular South Indian music form called Carnatic music is rooted in classical Tamil music. The advent of Tamil music began with musical grammar in the Tholkapiam era (BCE 400 – BCE 200). During the Silappadhikaram period of the 2nd century CE, Carnatic music branched out profusely in the pasura periods of Thevaram and Divyaprapandhams (7th – 9th centuries CE)." - '''Sundaram, Vi. Pa. Ka. (2000). Tamil Classical Music. Chicago: International Tamil Language Foundation, p.1143.'''

Another rash claim would be that since Carnatic rhymes with Karnataka, it must be from Karnataka. People, please refrain from these nonsensical questions. I understand the sole purpose of this circus expedition, and that is to rid of Dravidian templates for fear that other people may read it and it may be of embarassment to some since there may be those who feel that Dravidians are primitive and also resemble that of Indigenous Australians and Eastern Africans such as Somalians, Ethiopians, and Eritreans. I will stop here and leave you all with yet another quote from Periyar.

 * Man must remove by himself his feelings of inferiority, the feeling that he is lesser born than other beings, and attain self-confidence and self-respect. - E.V. Ramasami Naiker

Now, I am off for a short wikibreak. Wiki Raja 23:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

My Replies

 * My citations (with reference to sculptures in Pattadakal- Badami Chalukya, 8th century)

''Various kinds of musical instruments like Veena, flute, conch, drums etc are found in these sculptures. dancing girls are also carved. One record speaks of one actor called Achala was is decsribed as well versed in Bharata's Natya Shastra. Thus music, dance and drama were in an advanced stage''' --Dr. Suryanath U. Kamat, A Concise history of Karnataka from pre-historic times to the present, Jupiter books, MCC, Bangalore, 2001 (Reprinted 2002) OCLC: 7796041

Let us not forget that The Badami Chalukyas were contemporaries of the Pallavas. Do you see the similarities in the two citations by Kilger, George and Suryanath Kamath ?

 * My citation (with reference to evolution of carnatic music)

''In the history of Indian music we find several eminent persons authoring rare works after considerable research. In the begining music consisted of a few ragas and without Tala. Maharishis, Alwars, Nayanara and other devotees composed slokas and hymns for worshipping god. They sang and danced to attain mental peace and for sharing their supreme joy with others, they have left behind their works. Of these the very first is Valmiki who in the form of slokas set up a beautiful pattern, told the story of Sri Rama through Rama's sons and disciples Lava and Kusa in the Aswamedha hall. In this fashion several masters appeared on the music stage and through their research gave to music lakshana and composed numerous songs. It is through these that art amd music flourished in grandeur. All these compositions were meant as obeisance to god through slokas. Below is given as list of works on music, the authors and the period.''

NO.-->Name of work-->Author-->Period 1. --->Natya sastra-->Bharata--->4th cen BCE 2.---> Tattilam--->Tatilar--->4th cen BCE 3.--->Brihaddesi--->Matanga--->5th cen CE 4.--->Sangeeta Samaya--->Parsvadeva--->12th cen CE 20.--->Sangraha Choodamini--->Govindacharya--->18th cen CE

(I have left out the No 5 thru No 19. But I can scan it for you if required) Though these masters engaged themselves in research and composed songs, it was Purandaradasa who is considered the Sangeetha Pitamaha who lived in the 15th century and the stalwarts who followed him like Sri Tyagaraja....we know the rest of the names right?

-Karnataka Sangeeta Sastra-Theory of Carnatic music by Vidwan A.S. Panchapakesa Iyer (2006), printed at Zion Printers, Chennai p8.

As you can see, if you have one scholar who claims carnatic music branched out in the 2nd cen CE in Tamil country, there is another who claims it originated with Valmiki and was brought to todays format by Purandaradasa.

I have nothing against you personally and would like to see this "tag" topic come to a close amicably, and I dont see race as a tangible asset to fight over. I am trying to piece my way thru this foreign issue and am hoping I am not making a fool of myself. thanks.Dineshkannambadi 04:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

 * That seems to be a very civil reply unlike other users in WP. I strongly agree that Purandaradasa contributed a lot. In your citation, you mentioned about the alwars and nayanmars being the forerunners of using Carnatic music. My contention is from where did they originate (at least the majority)? Also, I feel that WikiRaja's map can not be ignored outright. Also, I think its time to start a motion against 59.92.74.69(Please see his comments [here]) Don't you agree?. Praveen 19:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

 * As you can see, if you have one scholar who claims carnatic music branched out in the 2nd cen CE in Tamil country, there is another who claims it originated with Valmiki and was brought to todays format by Purandaradasa.
 * Infact, for every one so called scholar who talks of a tamil origin, there are not one but dozens who speak of vedic origins and valmiki ramayana. This hollow claim that it started in Tamil is held only by fringe tamil authors, which patently partisan sites like 'tamilnation.com' publish.  This debate has gone on for months on the Carnatic music page where a couple of tamil-pov pushers havent convinced anybody.  Indian arts have developed as a pan Indian tradition.  Nobody can claim ownership over it.  Carnatic music too developed out of a pan-Indian tradition.  Purandara dasa gave it a more or less finished format.  Even after purandara dasa, CM has continued to evolve.  Even Bharatanatya, let me just make a quick comment, did NOT originate in tamil nadu nor is it native to tamilnadu.  Even dance owes its origins to Natyashastra.  Now dont ask me whether there was no music and dance prior to natya shastra or the vedas.  there may have been.  Dance and music may have been there since the dawn of mankind.  But our historians have only been able to go back till the vedas.  Not beyond that.  Once we are able to go beyond that, maybe we can attribute all languages, arts etc., to tamil which according to tamils has been in existence since the wooly mammoths(see Sangam, Lemuria etc.,.)  Sarvagnya 19:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Usage of word Karnatik-->Rashtrakuta inscription of 753 CE
The Samangadh copper plate grant (753) confirms that feudatory Dantidurga defeated the Vallabha Kirtivarman II of Badami and with a small army humbled the great Karnatik army (refering to the army of the Badami Chalukyas) which had earlier won victories over the Kings of Kanchi, Kerela, Chola, Pandya, King Harsha of Kanauj and Vajrata.

Pandit B.N. Reu, History of the Rashtrakutas (Rathodas), 1933, Publishing Scheme, Jaipur (Reprinted 1997), p54

Just to share the age old name of Karnataka region.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 01:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

RE:My Replies
Though these masters engaged themselves in research and composed songs, it was Purandaradasa who is considered the Sangeetha Pitamaha who lived in the 15th century and the stalwarts who followed him like Sri Tyagaraja.... we know the rest of the names right? -Karnataka Sangeeta Sastra-Theory of Carnatic music by Vidwan A.S. Panchapakesa Iyer (2006), printed at Zion Printers, Chennai p8.''

Yes... Sri Muthuswamy Dikshitar, Sri, Syama Sastri and Swati Tirunal...

If you go back several pages to the Forward section it will state, "The present book 'Karnataka Sangita Sastra' was originally writen in Tamil and so great was Iyer's enthusiasm that he wrote the entire book of 160 pages in his own handwriting and got it printed by the ofset process."

Now, if you turn to page 13. you will see that the author gives two theories of the origination of the name Carnatic. "Since Kannada is the language of Karnataka, there is reason to believe that this has been called Carnatic music. Also the word 'carnatic' taking after the Tamil word 'karnatakam' means ancient or old and this form of music, therefore, might have been called Carnatic music" -Karnataka Sangeeta Sastra-Theory of Carnatic music by Vidwan A.S. Panchapakesa Iyer (2006), printed at Zion Printers, Chennai. Forward page and pp. 8 & 13.

Wiki Raja 23:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

 * So clearly there is no consensus even among Scholars where the music came from and I dont think we are wise enough make that call either. If we are going to argue about where the "name" came from we would be splitting hairs and missing the real point. I think we should just enjoy the music and dance and move on.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck.Dineshkannambadi 18:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the reply. Tamil and Kannadiga scholars both claim Carnatic music as from their heritage. However, Kannadigas, Tamils, Malayalees, and Telugus for example share a lot of commonalities amongst each other and constitute the Dravidian family. Wiki Raja 04:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

LGBT template & Homophobia on Yakshagana
What is wrong with having an LGBT series template on Yakshagana? Afterall isn't it the men who paint and dress themselves like women for the dance? Also, LGBT does not necessarily denote to only gays. LGBT stands for Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender. Isn't Yakshagana a transgender dance? This is not a put down for the article, unless there are some folks who are homophobic. Homophobia is the fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. Anyways, not only is there hate towards ethnic Tamils on this talk page, but there is also hate towards homosexuals. Even though I am not gay, I strongly feel that discrimination against people based on their sexual orientation is morally wrong. Therefore, this talk page promotes bigotry, prejudice and hatred towards other peoples sexual orientations, ethnicities, and religious backgrounds. Wiki Raja 22:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Please tell me you're kidding! The reason why men play women's roles has a historical and cultural background, it has nothing to do with transgendered people. All your arguments are completely misplaced because you're mixing up two very unrelated topics. Max - You were saying? 08:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please. Thank you. Sarvagnya 09:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

No references at all
There is not a single reference about anything in this article. adding OR tag. Praveen 22:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please have a look at the references I've added. I think they cover all points fact tags had been placed. I'm removing fact and OR tags. Thanks, Gnanapiti 22:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Two Variants?
There is no description at all of the two variants, apart from the fact that one is used in the north, while the other is popular in the south. And two pictures of a guy who look pretty much the same.--SidiLemine 13:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I added what I coul find.--SidiLemine 15:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll add more information on the variants. Thanks for bringing this up. Gnanapiti 15:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Folk Art?
It is very sad to note that Yakshagana has been placed next to folk dances like Bhangra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_folk_dances. We need to do something about it. Yakshagana rhythms are one of the most sophesticated and complicated for any art in India strictly follwos classical Tala system and not folk groves as in Bhangra. The dance needs years of learning of abhinaya and practice of scholarly debate. The dialog is spontanious and improvisation of all of its part, dialog, dance and music is a unique feature not seen in any other art form. We need to create a section called semi classical art forms and add Yakshagana. http://thoughtslot.blogspot.com/2008/05/some-observations-on-yakshagana.html ~rAGU (talk)

Invitation
Yakshagana Raga and Yakshagana Tala are studied in the scholarly works of Bhagavatha Narayanappa Uppura, Prof. Sridhara Uppura and in the celebrated book Chandogati of scholar Sediyapu Krishna Bhatta. Please update this aricle in making this an invaluable contribution to Yakshagana and Wikipedia.

Please have a look at newly created Yakshagana Raga and Yakshagana Tala pages.

~rAGU (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC).

Costal Karnataka
It is incorrect to mention Yakshagana as an art of coastal Karnataka. When was Thirthahalli, Sirasi, Siddapura, Sagara, Yellapura been in coastal Karnataka? Artists like Gode Narayana Hegde, Kolagi Anantha Hegde and Bhagavatha Kolagi Keshava Hegde, Shankara Bhagavatha Yellapura, Gopalachari Thirthahalli. Looks like it is a display of regionalism by some one from South Canara. Please do not revert the correction.

~rAGU (talk)

Can you please provide a reliable source for your claim? The source mentioned in the article does not mention anything about Shimoga. It say only about South Canara, Udupi and North Canara Districts, which form the coastal region of Karnataka.188.50.55.122 (talk) 06:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

North Canara is not coastal district. Thanks. Is Sirsi a coastal town? Please lookup map. 199.246.40.54 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Urgent cleanup
Of late, much material is added to the article, without sourses and references and some original research and comments on eminent writers (Karanth); and the article has lost shape to an extent that, even one website link appears in main article! General clean up and copy editing and neutral point of writing / editing is urgently required; that will be justice to an article on this great, unique art form.Rayabhari (talk) 14:57, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Separating list of Yakshagana artists
The heading "Known Yakshagana Artists" includes so many names and of course, no source, and in good faith one can take it. But the list is very lengthy, and certainly there is scope for further development of list of artists, with their specialisations if required. I propose to put the list of artists in a separate page called "List of Yakshagana Artists" with subsections like Bhagavaths, background artists, stree vesha etc and the List can be accessed from the main page also. With this separation of the page, the main page looks good and tidey with relavant source ( in any case, the list can be accessed by clicking the link).Rayabhari (talk) 05:05, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Indic removals from article body
I understand the first edit, removing the Indic from the lede, but why from the "Etymology" section? GenQuest "Talk to Me" 21:06, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yakshagana


text:
User talk:BuddyParaiso

ULTRA ELECTRO MAGNETIC MACHINE VOLTES V

Tadao Nagahama, creator of classic Japanese Super robot T.V. series such as Combattler V and Daimos, created the super robot epic titled VOLTES V. A gem from the 70’s, the series tells about the heroic exploits of the young Earth defense agents called The Voltes Team and their struggle to protect the world against an evil alien invasion force from the supposed planet of Boazania. Armed with the Ultra Electro magnetic machine Voltes V, the series highlights human sentimentality: love for parents, respect for elders, teen age troubles, utmost dedication, team work and the notion that the defense for one’s home world is a noble and desirable act. The Voltes Team had their own poignant stories to tell, specially the three members named Kenichi Gou, (A.k.a - Steve Armstrong) Daijiro Gou, (A.k.a – Big Bert Armstrong) and Hiyoshi Gou, (A.k.a – Little Jon Armstrong) as well as the two other members namely Ippei Mine, ( A.k.a. – Mark Gordon) and Megumi Oka, (A.k.a. – Jamie Robinson) the only female member of the team. Even the enemy invaders, the Boazanians had their own story to tell, Prince Heinel, (A.k.a. Prince Zardoz) the commander of the Boazanian Imperial Forces, had his share of sad stories, plots and intrigues. Voltes V is an emotional series, were human sufferings are all shown. The only turn-off is that the characters are so emotional to the point of hysteria! The 40 episode series follows the adventures of Voltes V and the Voltes Team as they struggle painfully to guard the Earth and finally, liberate the people of the offending planet of Boazania from tyrrany. Voltes V was armed with varieties of missiles, beams and deadly projectiles. But the most potent of its weapons was the “Den- Ku- Ken” or Lightning sword. Critiques claimed that Voltes V’s design were similar to that of Combattler V. Since both seem to have analogous color schemes and both were “gattai” (Combining) type of super robots. There is also a website claiming that Voltes V is nothing but a carbon copy of Combattler V. This is not true, Voltes V may be an improvement of the Combattler V robot design and story line since Combattler V’s story line was more inclined to be humorous, where as Voltes V had mature and serious contents in its series.

Volt Machine V

Crewzer 1

Code : Ph-Red balance A Model No. Ci – J Category: Attack Fighter Interceptor Operants: AW/2M Primary: Atmos Landing: S.T.O.L Height : 6.82 meters Weight: 95 tons Length: 17.73 meters Width: 17.73 meters Armaments: Crewzer Missiles Crewzer rockets Crewzer cannon Claw boomerang Crewzer Claw Cutter

Target Definition: Radar-Sonar-Thermal guidance Armor: Titanium- Platinum Alloy with Diamond reinforcement Thermal Capacity: 1.43 millisol Shock Capacity: 15 megatons Control: Guardian Computer assisted with manual override.

Bomber 2

Code : Ph-Red balance B Model No. Bx-4G Category: Attack Bomber Interceptor Operants: AW/2M Primary: Atmos Landing: S.T.O.L Height : 3.48 meters Weight: 100 tons Length: 18.93 meters Width: 18.18 meters Armaments: Bomber Missiles Bomber Concealed Bazookas Bomber cannon Bomber Hook Bomber Rings Bomber Chain Knuckles

Target Definition: Radar-Sonar-Thermal guidance Armor: Titanium- Platinum Alloy with Diamond reinforcement Thermal Capacity: 1.50 millisol Shock Capacity: 15 megatons Control: Guardian Computer assisted with manual override.

Panzer 3

Code : Ph-Red balance C Model No. PZ-4D Category: Defense Tank fighter Operants: AW/Delta M Primary: land Landing: V.T.O.L Height : 18.18 meters Weight: 220 tons Length: 13.94 meters Width: 16.21 meters Armaments: Panzer Missiles Panzer Arms Panzer cannon Panzer Knuckles Panzer Knife launchers

Target Definition: Radar-Sonar-Thermal guidance Armor: Titanium- Platinum Alloy with Diamond reinforcement Thermal Capacity: 1.47 millisol Shock Capacity: 15 megatons Control: Guardian Computer assisted with manual override.

Frigate 4

Code : Ph-Red balance D Model No. F1-C Category: Attack Fighter Submersible Operants: AW/2M Primary: Atmos/Nautical Landing: S.V.T.O.L Height : 13.77 meters Weight: 105 tons Length: 24.85 meters Width: 26.67 meters Armaments: Frigate Missiles Frigate lasers Frigate freezer and heat rays.

Target Definition: Radar-Sonar-Thermal guidance Armor: Titanium- Platinum Alloy with Diamond reinforcement Thermal Capacity: 1.41 millisol Shock Capacity: 15 megatons Control: Guardian Computer assisted with manual override.

Lander 5

Code : Ph-Red balance E Model No. LDR – 5F Category: Multi – Terrain Defense Interceptor Operants: AW/Delta M Primary: Land/ Multi-terrain, Subterranean Landing: .V.T.O.L Height : 11.82 meters Weight: 80 tons Length: 14.69 meters Width: 16.66 meters Armaments: Lander Missiles Lander drills Lander Cement (Chemical thrower) Lander Blaster Lander Underground Camera Lander Star blades

Target Definition: Radar-Sonar-Thermal guidance Armor: Titanium- Platinum Alloy with Diamond reinforcement Thermal Capacity: 1.49 millisol Shock Capacity: 15 megatons Control: Guardian Computer assisted with manual override.

“Technical Data of the Voltes V Super Robot Defense System.”

The Development of the Ultra Electro Magnetic Machine

Voltes V was conceived and created by Earth International Defense scientists, Dr. Gou (A.k.a. – Dr. Ned Armstrong), Dr. Hamaguchi. (Dr. Richard Smith), and support from General Oka. (Cmdr. Robinson) Of the Earth International Defense Force.

Aware of the grave Boazanian invasion threat, the Earth International Defense constructed a powerful 58 meter high super cybernaut powered with intense, ultra electro magnetic energy. Instead of creating only one defense system, Dr. Gou suggested the creation of five, multi-functioning Earth Defense machine components.

These massive machine components dubbed as “Volt Machine V” could integrate to form one colossal powerhouse defense system. In the process of Voltes V’s creation, several technological breakthroughs were made such as:

The creation of a titanium-platinum alloy reinforced with diamond crystals for extreme heat resistance. An instantaneous response system was developed, through the use of massive computerized hydraulic devices. The terrific thrust velocities which attain the speed of Mach 2, through the use of fusion-type drive engine nuclear reactors. Component machines can integrate through the release of tremendous electro magnetic energy that polarizes the locking mechanisms of each machine.

The defense system completed, Voltes V was a scientific achievement surpassing current technology by several hundred years. The Earth is now provided with the fire power surpassing the military might of the Boazanian Empire. Voltes V will always ready as our planet’s last recourse.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltes_V" Categories: Anime | Manga

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title: User talk:BuddyParaiso


text:
Talk:New Naturalist

Expansion
This entry could benefit with being expanded. The New Naturalist is one of the most collected series of books in the UK.

Clean up
done. Dunc|☺ 22:52, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ford's Butterflies.jpg
Image:Ford's Butterflies.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 09:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I have edited Image:Ford's Butterflies.jpg to add the relevant information. It would be a shame if this image was deleted! Snalwibma 10:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Editions
I've added edition dates for Ford's Butterflies and some of the Blooomsbury facsimiles. Please add more. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 23:14, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

De-clutter Main Series Table?
In order to de clutter main series table I recommend moving the hardback and paperback ISBN information to their own columns, thus (example):

User:Simuliid 18 Oct 2012

 * Hi Simuliid, sorry you think this a major change. I think in a way the table you've put above says it all - the ISBNs add very little for the reader, and as they are edition-specific, they go out of date very readily (all it seems to take is a simple reprint nowadays). Further, only the most recent books (with a couple of exceptions) had them, so frankly it wasn't helping a lot, and yes, it was cluttering the place up. With the additional columns it won't be a lot better, surely. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:40, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * And on dates, it is very unusual to have dd/mm/yyyy for books in Wikipedia. We nearly always make do with yyyy. Can't see why we need them here, either.
 * And while we're on critique mode, the 'Bloomsbury' column is nearly all empty. Perhaps we could just have a small "B" symbol (superscript, perhaps) against the books which have one of these? Would save a wide strip of 'real estate'. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:44, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I see that this has not been resolved a year on. I propose to make the following small changes to declutter the table, unless there are genuine reasons why the current inconsistent and 'recentist' (sales-oriented?) arrangement is necessary:

 * 1) trim book dates down to year - all but the most recent are like that already
 * 2) remove the ISBNs from the more recent books - readers can find them instantly on Amazon, and they mess up the whole table. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:51, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Author link
I have added links to the author's biographies for all authors. I should add that the authors are now listed as they are on the cover of the books. Barney the barney barney (talk) 19:32, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have removed, and I will remove, links to disambiguation pages that are unsolvable. Red links are fine but link to disambiguation pages not. Sorry. The Banner talk 22:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
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None of the external links to internal pages of the official website actually work anymore - the pages no longer exist. I've removed all of the broken links Harasseddad (talk) 23:17, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:New Naturalist


text:
Ephydridae

Ephydridae (shore fly, sometimes brine fly) is a family of insects in the order Diptera.

Shore flies are tiny flies that can be found near seashores or at smaller inland waters, such as ponds. About 2,000 species have been described worldwide, including Ochthera.

The petroleum fly, Helaeomyia petrolei, is the only known insect whose larvae live in naturally occurring crude petroleum. Another notable species is Ephydra hians which lives in vast number at Mono Lake.

Description
For terms, see Morphology of Diptera.

The flies are minute to small (0.9 to 7.0 mm), with black or gray colorations. Wings are sometimes patterned. Costa with two interruptions are present in first section, near the humeral cross-vein and again near the end of vein 1. The second basal cell is not separated from the discal cell. Arista are bare or with hairs on the upper side (plumose on the upper side). The mouth opening is very large in some species. The ratio of vertical diameter of eye and height of gena (face index) is widely used in identification of individual species.

Larvae
In the tribe Notiphilini the head is reduced to a cephalic skeleton, there are no anterior spiracles and the posterior spiracles are extended as spines. The other taxa have larvae similar to the Sciomyzidae, with the posterior spiracles at the apices of divergent branches from a common base. They may be differentiated by short thoracic segments (like the abdominal ones) and by the absence of a ventral arch linking the mouth hooks.

Identification

 * Andersson, H. (1971), The European species of Limnellia (Dipt., Ephydridae). Entomologica Scandinavica 2: 53–59.Key to European species.
 * Becker, T. (1926), Ephydridae. 56a. In: Lindner, E. (Ed.). Die Fliegen der Paläarktischen Region 6: 1–115. Keys to Palaearctic species but now needs revision (in German).
 * Canzoneri, S. & Meneghini, D. (1983), Ephydridae e Canaceidae. Fauna d’Italia XX.Revision of the Italian species for these two families (in Italian).
 * Mathis, W.N. & Zatwarnicki, T. (1990), A revision of the western Palaearctic species of Athyroglossa (Diptera: Ephydridae). Transactions of the American Entomological Society 116: 103–133. Revision of the West Palaearctic species of the genus.
 * E.P. Narchuk Family Ephydridae in Bei-Bienko, G. Ya, 1988 Keys to the insects of the European Part of the USSR Volume 5 (Diptera) Part 2 English edition.
 * Zatwarnicki, T. (1997), Ephydridae. In: Nilsson, A. (Ed.) Aquatic Insects of North Europe (A Taxonomic Handbook). Apollo Books, Stenstrup, Denmark. Includes a key (in English) to the genera.

Habitats
Ephydridae occupy a diverse array of seashore and wetland habitats including hot springs, petroleum pools, salt pools, alkaline lakes, marshes. Imago are phytophagous, sometimes feeding on microscopic algae and bacteria (Paracoenia, Ephydra), or predatory (Ochthera, Ephydrinae). As larvae, many are phytophagous, grazing on aquatic plants (including cultivated rice), others are algal grazers or saprophagous. Larvae of Trimerina are predatory. Some species are an important food source for other animals. Others cause damage to agricultural crops.

Larvae of some Ephydridae live in very unusual habitats. For example, Ephydra brucei lives in hot springs and geysers where the water temperature exceeds 45 degrees Celsius; some Scatella live in hot sulphur springs; Helaeomyia petrolei develops in pools of crude oil; and Ephydra cinerea, the brine fly proper, in pools with very high concentrations of salt. Some have public health significance being associated with sewage filter beds and septic tanks. Flies develop in moist soils or mine leaves of aquatic, subaquatic, and rarely dry soil (Hydrellia) plants. Flies are found near water along coasts, among aquatic vegetation and sometimes on water surfaces (Ephydra).

Species lists

 * Western Palaearctic
 * Nearctic
 * Japan

title: Ephydridae


text:
User:Schissel/Personal watchlist

Personal_watchlist
Separating into A-M, N-Z.Brief list of some pages I'm watching for (not pages I'm actively watching; these pages mostly don't exist yet). The most important of these in my honest opinion - which I feel competent to work on of course - will go gradually to my temp page, I think... e.g. we should not lack a page on Johan Wenzel Kalliwoda spelled somehow, and redirects from other spellings/common uses. (Had a list here of composers important to begin- some of them I've begun, others others have begun. Realize that this should be on the "Requested articles" page...)

Adding help for me on using this page to main page.

Edit: this is obviously also becoming an attempt at a resource page for people who do want to become part of a very informal seeding project - I'm looking for resources, anyway... (GFDL I'd better hope, hence focusing on interwiki) but no longer concentrating on languages I semi-know (French, German).

Another useful resource- http://cadensa.bl.uk

(Some composers chosen - carefully, not randomly - with Gilder-Musicweb as memory-guide) (also for ja: see categories and partial list at

クラシック音楽の作曲家一覧 (五十音順), similarly lists like Liste_der_Sinfonien, m:de:Portal:Musik/Jahrestage Liste_der_Komponisten_/_K Klassiske komponister fra det 20. århundrede, Lijst_van_componisten m:ro:Lista compozitorilor de muzică clasică: K 20. századi és mai zeneszerzők listája, Romantikus zeneszerzők listája

m:ga:Catagóir:Básanna i 1999 ( = m:en:Category:1999 deaths)

while m:ru:Категория:Родившиеся в 1922 году = Category:1922 births. also m:ru:Категория:Композиторы России which is not linked to from Category:Russian composers (the corresponding page).

Next: compare articles- which of these is posted in the most Wikipedian and google post offices...

 * Aarhus Symfoniorkester, Århus Symphony Orchestra
 * Nikolay Agnivtsev (Nikolai Agnivtsev, Агнивцев, Николай Яковлевич) (8/20 April 1888- October 29 1932) (Russian poet, some of his texts set by Prokofiev eg in op. 23)
 * Anatoly Nikolayevich Alexandrov May 13 (O.S.)/25 1888-April 16 1982. (some other spelling?) (Anatoli Nikolajewitsch Alexandrow. Possibly Александров, Анатолий Николаевич but I don't know- the dates are right, etc.)
 * Alfred Alessandrescu (August 14, 1893 - February 18, 1959) (Romanian composer, a work was played on Radio 3/Euroclassic Notturno. Dates according to "BrainyHistory" but will attempt to confirm!!) (Alfred Alessandrescu is now an interwiki, albeit very stubby. Alfred Alessandrescu is more useful.)
 * Werner Andreas Albert (conductor) (January 10 1935) (Werner Andreas Albert)
 * Grande sonate 'Les quatre âges' (Grande Sonate de Charles-Valentin Alkan) (the Quasi-Faust movement may have helped to inspire Liszt's B minor sonata...)
 * Symphony No. 4 (George Antheil) (Cuarta Sinfonía, George Antheil)
 * Johann Ernst Bach/Johann Ernst Bach (musician at Saxe-Weimar) (Johann Ernst Bach II, Johann Ernst Bach (1722-1777), Johann Ernst Bach II) (listening to music of his on BBC Radio 3 COTW now... interesting/neat...) (Jan 28 1722 - Sept 1 1777) (link: from http://www.bach-cantatas.com) (860 google hits to "Johann Ernst Bach", 2 links)
 * Ion Baciu could refer to the conductor or the scientist, and on google hits more likely to the latter. Conductor born July 21 1931, died November 8 1995 . Has recorded Enesco, Brindus, Dumitru Bughici, Mihai Moldovan. Ion Baciu- three wikilinks to a wrestling medalist also of this name.
 * Allan Badley (musicologist- editor, and in some cases cataloguer of composers from Samuel Arnold to Vanhal) (His work page at New Zealand School of Music where he's Director of the Centre for Eighteenth-Century Music.; Alumni profile (PhD 1986 according to . Yes, trying to figure out approx birthdate.)) (Interview) (founded the new Artaria Editions with Klaus Heymann) Author of PhD thesis on the Concertos of Leopold Hofmann; author of '‘The composition of Ferdinand Ries’s Piano Concerto, Op. 55’'
 * Eduardas Balsys (Eduardas Balsys, Dec. 20 1919-November 3 1984)
 * Carl Gottlieb Bellmann (Carl Gottlieb Bellmann) (September 6 1772 - January 10 1862) (famously composed in 1844 the Schleswig-Holstein-Lied...?)
 * Friedrich Ludwig Benda (1746 - March 20 1796), son of Georg Benda) (Friedrich Ludwig Benda)
 * Victor Bendix (May 17? 1851- January 5? 1926), also Edition Samfundet URL
 * Theodor Berger (Theodor Berger, Theodor Berger), (May 18 1905 - August 21 1992)
 * Vera Beths (Vera Beths,, . Source with year of birth not yet?)
 * Hermann Bischoff (January 7 1868- poss. January 25 1936?) (symphony no. 1 in E opus 16 now on cpo. Heard of him while trawling through the Neue Zeitschrift.)
 * Constantin Bobescu (Romanian composer-conductor.) (May 21 1899-1992)
 * Ermend Bonnal, Joseph-Ermend Bonnal (1880-1944) Violin sonata (finished 1907), two string quartets (1918, 1934)
 * Hakon Børresen, Håkon Borresen, Håkon Børresen (see Hakon Børresen, Hakon Børresen) (June 2 1876-October 6 1954)
 * Cello Sonata No. 2 (Brahms), Clarinet Trio (Brahms), Clarinet Quintet (Brahms) (Quintette pour clarinette et cordes de Brahms), Horn Trio (Brahms), Piano Quartet No. 1 (Brahms) (ピアノ四重奏曲第1番 (ブラームス)), Piano Quartet No. 2 (Brahms), Piano Quartet No. 3 (Brahms), *Piano Trio No. 1 (Brahms), Piano Trio No. 2 (Brahms), Piano Trio No. 3 (Brahms), String Quartet No. 1 (Brahms) (弦楽四重奏曲第1番 (ブラームス)), String Quartet No. 2 (Brahms) (弦楽四重奏曲第2番 (ブラームス)), String Quartet No. 3 (Brahms) (弦楽四重奏曲第3番 (ブラームス)), String Quintet No. 1 (Brahms) (弦楽五重奏曲第1番 (ブラームス)), String Quintet No. 2 (Brahms) (弦楽五重奏曲第2番 (ブラームス)), String Sextet No. 1 (Brahms) (弦楽六重奏曲第1番 (ブラームス)), String Sextet No. 2 (Brahms) (弦楽六重奏曲第2番 (ブラームス)), Violin Sonata No. 1 (Brahms), Violin Sonata No. 2 (Brahms), Violin Sonata No. 3 (Brahms)
 * Franz Brendel (editor of the Neue Zeitschrift für Musik at an ill-fated time...) (Franz Brendel (Musikkritiker)) (1811-1868)
 * Paul Büttner Paul Büttner (also: 4. Sinfonie (Büttner)) December 10 1870 - October 15 1943
 * Oscar Byström, Oscar Fredrik Bernadotte Byström (October 13 1821 - January 22 1909) (Oscar Byström, Oscar Byström)
 * Thomas Byström (1772 - 1839)
 * René Chalupt (1885-1957)
 * Stéphane Chapelier (Stéphane Chapelier) (1884 - 1966), French composer (poss a pen name)
 * List of works by Muzio Clementi (, Muzio Clementi article by David Wright (though Mozart 'stole' Clementi's theme in a way Stravinsky, was it?, would much approve of... but explaining the mystery of Clementi's six symphonies). (this list may contain the complete list of Clementi's compositions already and may just need association with other information on each work, etc.)
 * Jean Yves Daniel-Lesur (Jean_Yves_Daniel-Lesur, Jean_Yves_Daniel-Lesur, Jean_Yves_Daniel-Lesur) (November 19 1908 - July 2 2002)
 * Symphony No. 3 (Draeseke) (3. Sinfonie (Draeseke) (also second symphony is on de:.)
 * Per Dreier (hrm.. hard to find bio info, but has been conducting since before 1958 ( and joined the Aarhus Symphony as chief conductor from 1957-71 )
 * Rudolf Escher (Rudolf Escher) January 8 1912-March 17 1980
 * Marius Flothuis (Marius Flothuis) (October 30 1914 - November 13 2001) (mentioned a few times in en: but no article.)
 * Bengt Førsberg, Bengt Forsberg, Bengt Försberg (1952 in Edsleskog?, Sweden -present)
 * Kaspar Förster, Kaspar Foerster, Caspar Förster, Caspar Foerster, Kaspar Förster, Jr., Kaspar Forster (1616 - 1673) (Kaspar Förster) (Recording of some works of his on )
 * Petronio Franceschini (Petronio Franceschini, Petronio Franceschini, ca.1651-1681.) (about 800 google hits for "Petronio Franceschini".)
 * Mikhail Gnessin (ミハイル・グネーシン, Michail Fabianowitsch Gnessin 1883-1957
 * David Mason Greene (poss. not notable enough)
 * Jesús Guridi (Jesus Guridi, Jesús Guridi, ヘスース・グリーディ, Jesús Guridi) (September 25?? 1886-April 7?? 1961)
 * Halvor Haug (born February 2 1952) MIC biography
 * Oscar van Hemel (August 3 1892 in Antwerp - July 9 1981 in Hilversum)
 * Hans Henkemans (Hans Henkemans) (The Hague 1913 - Nieuwegein 1995)
 * Fini Henriques (Fini Valdemar Henriques) (many google hits) Fini Henriques, Fini Henriques, Fini Henriques, Fini Henriques (October 20 1867-October 27 1940)
 * Konzertmusik for Brass and String Orchestra (Konzertmusik pour orchestre à cordes et cuivres (Paul Hindemith))
 * Symphonia serena (Paul Hindemith) or Symphonia Serena (Symphonia serena) (always nice to find that there's a page about this on another site, and one with a language I still can basically read. Might start on that soon...)
 * Richard Hol (Richard Hol) (1825-1904)
 * Jef van Hoof (May 8 1886-April 24 1959)  (Jef Van Hoof) (capitalization nec. - no redirect seems to exist.)
 * Leonid Hrabovski (b. 1935)
 * Jean Hubeau (June 22 1917 - August 19 1992)
 * Ketil Hvoslef (son of Harald Sæverud.) (July 19 1939-) Ketil Hvoslef, Ketil Hvoslef, Ketil Hvoslef.)
 * Ludvig Irgens-Jensen (Ludvig Irgens-Jensen, Ludvig Irgens-Jensen) (1894-1969) (his Passacaglia and a song cycle have been recorded and the former played from time to time in concert...)
 * Shandor Kallosh (b. October 23 1935)  (also: Sándor Kallos)
 * Nikica Kalogjera (1930-2006) Nikica Kalogjera
 * Alemdar Sabitovych Karamanov or Alemdar Karamanov or Alemdar Sabitovich Karamanov (born September 10 1934) (アレムダール・カラマーノフ) (here again we go into the composers that don't really interest me region, but here's where to get GFDL information on them)
 * Wiktor Każyński (December 12 1812 in Vilnius- March 18 1867 in St Petersburg) (Wiktor Każyński, Кажинский, Виктор Матвеевич)
 * Symphony (Korngold) or Symphony in F-sharp (Korngold), or Symphony in F-sharp major (Korngold)
 * Hans Kox (born 1930) Hans Kox
 * Josef Krejcik (Jíří Krejčík?? (prob. different person- film director.), Josef Emil Krejcik ?) (Крейчик, Йозеф Эмиль (January 22 1885 - January 4 1957)) (The Chess Games of Josef Emil Krejcik)
 * Ignacy Krzyżanowski (Ignacy Krzyżanowski, Кржижановский, Игнатий) (December 24 1826 - February 10 1905)
 * Viktoras Kuprevičius (Viktoras Kuprevičius (1901), January 27 1901-April 1 1992) (poss. father of Giedrius Kuprevičius born April 8 1944)
 * Peter Lange-Müller (Dec. 1 1850-Feb. 26 1926) (Ланге-Мюллер, Петер Эразм, Peter Erasmus Lange-Müller, Peter Erasmus Lange-Müller)
 * Victor Legley. Vic Legley Victor Legley (June 18 1915-Nov 28 1994) (other sources --, , ) (Seven? Eight? symphonies, at least two violin concertos, viola sonata, viola concerto iirc, choral works, etc.)
 * Michaël Lévinas (born April 18 1949, Paris) (Michaël Levinas, Michael Lévinas, ミカエル・レヴィナス)
 * Fran Lhotka (Stanford opera list for birth and death dates (December 12 1883 Wozice, Cechy? - January 26 1962 Zagreb)) Wrote a string quartet in G minor and other works, a few recorded, some broadcast in studio performances (on BBC etc). Fran Lhotka (finally) (note categories- considered a Croatian composer)
 * Sigurd Lie (Sigurd Lie, Sigurd Lie) (May 23 1871-September 30 1904) (taught by Ferdinand A. Rojahn)
 * Six Bagatelles for Wind Quintet (Ligeti) (Six Bagatelles pour quintette à vents (György Ligeti))
 * Carl Ludvig Lithander, Carl Lithander or Carl Ludwig Lithander Carl Ludvig Lithander ; Carl Ludwig Lithander (FIMIC page) (1773-1843) (a piano sonata and a flute and piano rondo played recently over BBC Radio 3 Through the Night)
 * Isaac Liuban (born 1906 Minsk, died 1975) (Belorussian composer) (Любан, Исаак Исаакович) (Worldcat has three items, including one in which he was a contributor to LP Melodiia D-0008551 (matrix)--D-0008552 (matrix)- good transcription spelling of surname and first name not really clear however.)
 * Otmar Mácha (Otmar Mácha) (b. October 2 1922, died 2006) (a string quartet of his will be on radio in the next week or so)
 * Apollon Maykov or Apollon Maïkov or A. N. Maikov or AN Maikov or AN Maïkov or etc. Poet whose settings can be found in the music of Glazunov, Mussorgsky, and others. Eventually...! Work on this one sometime. Maybe an interwiki. Born 1821, may have died 1847.
 * Cristian Mandeal (Cristian Mandeal) (Pianist/conductor born April 18 1946. Somewhat well-known for his Enescu recordings...)
 * Cristian Marina (クリスチャン・マリーナ ; Cristian Marina) (1965-) (Swedish, not Romanian as I thought from sim. of name..!)
 * Vincenc Masek, Vincenc Mašek, Vincenc Václav Mašek (April 5 1755 - November 15 1831) (Vincenc Mašek)
 * Frederick May (composer) (1911-1985)
 * Alfred Mendelsohn (Alfred Mendelsohn - February 4 (or 5. or 17 1910 - May 9 1966 - 9_mai and 4 februarie link to him but, no article yet...) - composed the Fall of Doftanus - or, Prăbușirea Doftanei - which I've heard on a recording, coupled with a Carl Czerny concerto, but which was misleadingly credited. He also wrote at least six symphonies, the 6th of them broadcast in an Enescu memorial concert (one of many, a regular festival) which was transcribed/rebroadcast over BBC.) (the 6th symphony - see )
 * Arthur Meulemans (May 19 1884 in Aarschot – June 29 1966 in Brussels) (Arthur Meulemans, Arthur Meulemans)
 * Herman Meulemans (October 19 1893 in Aarschot - January 5 1965), Belgian organist Herman Meulemans)
 * František Adam Míča (or Frantisek Adam Mica) (January 11 1746-March 19 1811 ), František Adam Míča František Adam Míča
 * Maurerische Trauermusik (Maurische Trauermusik) (Mozart KV 477/479a)
 * Ch'io mi scordi di te? (K._505)
 * Divertimento No. 1 (Mozart) (K. 136) (links with m:hu:Mozart: Divertimento No. 1); also Divertimento No. 2 (Mozart) (K. 137) (m:hu:Mozart: Divertimento No. 2) (etc. -- the Hungarian Wiki has 10 articles corresponing also to K. 138, K. 205, K. 247, K. 251, K. 253, K. 270, K. 287, K. 334 ) (anyone know Hungarian...)

N-Z moved to Personal watchlist2. (don't save it on server so often, use rtf file when possible)

title: User:Schissel/Personal watchlist