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James M. Comly

James Munroe Stuart Comly (March 6, 1832 – July 26, 1887) was an American soldier, diplomat, and newspaper editor. Before and after his service as Colonel in the Union Army during the American Civil War, he was a journalist, attorney, newspaper editor and owner; after the war, he became a historian and diplomat. Comly was also instrumental in advancing the political career of his friend Rutherford B. Hayes, the 19th President of the United States; Hayes would go on to appoint him as United States Minister to Hawaii. In 1866, he was nominated and confirmed as a brevet brigadier general of volunteers, to rank from March 13, 1865.

Early life and career
Comly was born on a farm near the city of New Lexington, Ohio. He was descended from a family of Quakers who had moved to Perry County from Philadelphia and established a series of sawmills. When his father died when Comly was only ten years old, he moved to Columbus and worked in a printing shop as a messenger, before becoming an apprentice and journeyman printer. He studied law and served as the chief law clerk for the Ohio Secretary of State, which exposed him to politics. He began writing articles for newspapers and joined the fledgling Republican Party, supporting John C. Frémont for president in 1856 and Abraham Lincoln in 1860. He was the editor of the leading Republican newspaper, the Ohio State Journal.

Civil War
When hostilities broke out between the North and South, Comly enlisted in the Union Army in December 1861, being appointed by Republican Governor William Dennison as major of the 23rd Ohio Volunteer Infantry, an appointment at first not popular with the men as several experienced captains were passed over for the political appointee, Comly. The regiment was assigned to Raleigh, North Carolina, and Comly participated in several battles in the state. He was promoted to lieutenant colonel.

When the commander of the regiment, Rutherford B. Hayes, was wounded at the Battle of South Mountain, Comly assumed command and led the 23rd OVI at Antietam and several subsequent campaigns in the IX Corps until Hayes recovered. In 1863, Comly married Elizabeth Smith, the daughter of the Surgeon General of Ohio.

In February 1864, when Hayes was promoted to division command, Comly was named as his successor as colonel of the regiment, which he led for much of the remainder of the war until lingering effects from battlefield wounds forced him out of the field in early 1865. On January 13, 1866, President Andrew Johnson nominated Comly for appointment to the grade of brevet brigadier general of volunteers, to rank from March 13, 1865, and the United States Senate confirmed the appointment on March 12, 1866.

Postbellum
Following the war, Comly returned to his political newspaper and was editor and publisher of the Ohio State Journal, a powerful influence in helping his friend Hayes be elected Governor of Ohio. Comly guided the newspaper into statewide prominence (it would last until 1985 as The Columbus Citizen-Journal). In April 1866, Comly established a local baseball team in Columbus and became the sport's major promoter and advocate in the region. President Ulysses S. Grant appointed him as Postmaster of Columbus.

When Hayes was elected president in 1876, he rewarded Comly for his support by naming him the U.S. Minister to Hawaii, a post he held until 1882. He served as a presidential elector in 1884, supporting James G. Blaine. Comly moved to Toledo, Ohio, and became editor of the Toledo Commercial.

In the last years of his life, Comly suffered much from his old Civil War wounds. He died in Toledo, Ohio at the age of 55 and was buried in Green Lawn Cemetery in Columbus.

title: James M. Comly


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Goons (internet)

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. Golbez 06:55, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

The Goons (internet)
Unencyclopedic, non-notable Internet forum with 66 members. Again, adding every Internet forum under the sun will run Wikipedia out of whatever it is that's not paper. FCYTravis 04:35, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete Not notable. --Phroziac 04:37, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Adam Bishop 04:38, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Not paper is cheap, but it's not free, especially if it's high quality. --Xcali 04:49, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. RoadKill Goons 4 Life, Goons are more than just a message board, it is a cyber family of honest men and women.10:24 pm, 06/10/05
 * Comment - User's first and only two edits are to this VFD. --FCYTravis 05:36, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable forumcruft. A и D я 01D  TALK  EMAIL  05:44, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Has nothing to do with it being paper or not. Notability is notability. --Fastfission 05:55, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment - I think that was a joke. --Phroziac 19:41, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Not notable. You 19:28, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete for the lack of notability. Nestea 21:35, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete -- not notable. - Longhair | Talk 23:53, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


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Time reversal

Time reversal may refer to:
 * Reverse motion – a visual effect in which reversing the order of the frames of a film or video makes time appear to run backward
 * Reverse tape effects – an audio effect in which reversing the direction of an audio recording renders sounds backward
 * T-symmetry (or time reversal symmetry) – the expected symmetry of physical laws independent of whether time runs forward or backward
 * Time reversibility – the ability of some processes to operate in either direction of time
 * Time reversal signal processing – a technique for focusing acoustic and electromagnetic waves by reversing in time a system's response signals
 * Time travel – theorised and speculative concepts about traveling into the past or the future

title: Time reversal


text:
Talk:Racism in Russia

NPOV violation. Opinion presented as fact
Violation of Wikipedia article guidlines. No refrences or citation to prove point in the first paragraph that either of organization made any racist statements: In Russia the issue of Racism is present in the statements of Liberal Democratic Party of Russia and Russian Movement against illegal immigration'' (Russian language site). One may argue if those political movements are reflecting the opinion of majority of Russians or not, and if their political course is significant enough; but even if the followers of segregation are not the majority in contemporary Russia, the tendency is clearly present.''

Biased
People who wrote this simply don't have any idea about the actual subject. Everything written here is what the Western Rusophobic (they all are, try BBC.com: to an uneducated person it will seems Russia is wrose than hell itself) media tells you. Now, I can't, of course, deny that racism in Russia exists, as it does in all other countries. But this very article is simply wrong. Please don't call me names, I am not a fanatical patriot or whatever and I very much support the West. I rather simply want this article to be as unbiased as possible, making corrections to all the points. So, for example, take skinheads. Do you really think all Russian males are skinheads, everyone kills black people etc.? Of course not, we - Russians - are afrain of them as much as blacks are. It is just a very undesireble element of our society and it is very much condemned. But this article doesn't mention it. The reader will get the feeling that any foreigner here will be killed the second he walks out of the airport, then ritually burned etc.

Ok, I can go on forever. Basically, my point is simple: to every point against there should be a point pro. Russians as people are not racist. We love and care for everyone. If a foreigner walks into a Siberian village, the people there will give him everything and do everything to make him feel good. There are people who are racist, but why, you know, label them as the whole Russian population?

End.

I agree. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_n4_v20/ai_7756645 This links to an account of an African girl in the Soviet Union. Everything I research indicates biast information is aimed at against Russia sometimes. Danil

218.111.22.180

 * I took out the entire first paragraph as it completely unsabstantiated by any citation of any actual statements from LDPR and DPNI that would expose them as racist. They are nationalistic, and oppose illegal immigration, but there is nothing racist about it. This section was written by someone who likes to make up facts, rather then report them. Someone on the left, as usual.

 * I found this last comment (regarding 'the left') to be completely unnecessary. We can discuss this respectfully and objectively without insulting eachother personally, or making gross generalizations. Alexis 09:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

--

There are a number of questionable and clearly biased points in the article, for example there is no official policy to discriminate against Caucasian males marrying Slavic women, there are only some xenophobic individuals in Russia who resent this. Nonetheless, marriages between Caucasian males and Slavic women are very common in Russia, while the marriages between Caucasian females and Slavic males remain a social taboo in many Caucasian societies and are very rare. Also with all due respect Nick Gabrichidze's opinion about discrimination towards Caucasians is the opinion of only one man and is not enough to claim it as a new phenomenon. Finally, the level of hostility towards for example Georgians (who share the same Orthodox Christian faith and related culture with Russians) is nowhere near the level of antagonism between Russians and Chechens which is an exceptional case due two years of violent conflict in Chechnya. (Not to mention what some Caucasian peoples for example Armenians and Ossetians have traditionally close and friendly relations with the Russians). (Fisenko 04:36, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC))

 * I find it ridiculous to inovoke "Movement against illegal immigration" as a society for segregation. The whole problem with illegal immigrants is that they are way far from the best representatives of the ethnicity. And the same was 30 year ago: Georgians I've seen in Tbilisi and I've seen in Minsk markets are two different nations. mikka (t) 22:19, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Simulatity in religeous beliefs is rarely a factor to stop ethnical or racial discrimination hence the christiany of Georgians isn't an proof that this group does not suffer from the discrimination.

Skinheads may be a British invention but when it comes to sheer numbers, levels of violence and hatred of foreigners a damning new report suggests Russia has become the bovver boys' blood-soaked new playground. It may be a country that vilifies fascism more than any other and arguably had to make the most appalling sacrifices to defeat Nazi Germany 60 years ago but this is where skinhead culture has taken hold like nowhere else.Ell (t) 19:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

American usage
The following phrase removed:
 * In North America where Caucasian refers to light complexioned people indigenous to, or descended from Europe, word caucasophobia is used mostly by American White supremacists, White separatists and afrophobes to describe the "anti-white racism", which according to them, is existing in the American society.

This usage is unconfirmed in mainstream usage; even worse that the Russian version. Of course, you may stick the tail "phobia" to any word, but to be discussed in encyclopedia the usage may be well-established. mikka (t) 22:05, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * The American usage of the Word is available in many publications, mostly ultra conservative and white separatist lingo regarding the presumption of "anti-white" racism among black radicals in USA. Please see the book The New H.N.I.C.: The Death of Civil Rights and the Reign of Hip Hop by Todd Boyd or other publication of this extreme-right author where this word is present in a big numbers. Anyway this particular remark was added to the article to avoid any confusion die to different use of words "Caucasian" and "caucasophobia" in Russian and American societies.

This is a last warning Please stop vandalizing this article only because you do not like it's content. You seem to have a lots of contribution for this on-line resource(wikipedia) so please do not make us file another page protection and vandalism report. Please, let's solve it in a friendly way. This plague about dispute and following discussion is enough. If you feel that parts of content here are too harsh please EDIT them istead of deleting content completely. Besides you already filed a VfD, so even editing, not to talk about constantly deleting whole paragraphs of the text you are trying to terminate is not appropriateAuthors 3:19 pm, 14Jun 2005 (UTC)

Illegal immigrants in Russia
I was never in my life interested in Russian politics and almost never read any Russian news in last 7 years (except of sites with Russian anecdotes, like kulichki.ru). This discussion made me to do this, and I see there is a whole huge problem all over Russia: millions of immigrants from China, Korea, Vietnam. Compared to these, a handful of caucasians in Moscow is but a tiny sparkle in the overall flame. Does anyone want to write an article? mikka (t) 22:33, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Unofficial remark: Seems like you know more about his problem then we do. If you would take your time to write an artickle about this problem instead of deleting everything what hurts your feelings (or every issue you personaly are not familiar with), and harras every user(ers) you dislike it will be much appreciated. However the problem you have mentioned (prejudice against migrants from East Asia) is not a new type of phobia, but a "good" 'al Sinophobia so possibly you should visit this section at wiki and add your contribution there.''

Unofficial remark:mikkalai Wrote: "I was never in my life interested in Russian politics and almost never read any Russian news in last 7 years"

So what in the world forces you file VfD and Dispute, or edit and even delete content of pages regarding issues you are not interested with (and hence are not competent about). Would it be Russian politics or Georgian/Dutch art?

Threats towards me

 * You may get more traction if you include an extensive account of violent crimes, intimidations, rapes and kidnappings commited by the "immigrants" against native Russian population. Where is the expose on how "Caucasians" throw out poor pensioners out their own apartments and force them to hand it over, where is the account of drug dealing, where is the account of muslim illegals building mosques on top of Russian war dead cemeteries, where is the account of Russian citizens kidnapped for slavery going back to 1970's, where is the account of "Caucasians" setting up ethnic schools in Moscow where they force out ethnic Russian students, where is all the "good stuff"? The hypocrisy and racism of the left-wing fascists has reached stupendous proportions and must be, and will be, dealt with.

By the way Russia kicked Napoleon and Hitler, not the other way around as you claim.

Anyway, I will go away from this topic for two weeks. But after that please be prepared do defend each and every word in the article. You better go and read the rules of editing in wikipedia, not only how to fight with other editors. mikka (t) 17:09, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"In this particular case, my credentials from numerous contributions in category:Victims of Soviet repressions give me moral right to clean various bullshit in artciles about former Russian Empire"
 * Questions: What do you mean by threats? As an editor you must know the exact meaning of words. Does our polite friendly suggestion above fell under cathegory of threats?

First of all we will really apprecate if you will watch your tongue. Second we do not see any logic-you wrote something about Soviet repressions(which have nothing to do with a Russian empire as a matter of fact) and it gave you a right to act as an ulimate almighty master of everything what appears here regarding that part of the World? Is this your point, or we(I) misunderstood it?

"Anyway, I will go away from this topic for two weeks. But after that please be prepared do defend each and every word in the article."

If you want to discuss it, okay then. Just argue here please, instead of removing parts of artickle and waiting for our reaction, OK?

"You better go and read the rules of editing in wikipedia, not only how to fight with other editors"

Ok. If you promice to read Wikiquette we will read the rules ones again. One of the autors Amsterdam 1:06; 16-06-2005

How about you refreshing wikiquette first, from the very first items: From my side, I did not remove material uncommented. My comment was in edit summary. When you restored after disagreeing with me I did not go into edit wars. I simply have no time for writing much now. But after two weeks I will start seriously objecting to 80% of the article, here in the talk page. mikka (t) 23:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Assume good faith. It was not me who started looking some additional motives in my attitude, which is crystall clear: no unverified info in wikipedia. FUI, references to newspapers serve only as confirmations of some generalizations. But these generalizations must be presented as expert's opinions, not as wikipedia editor's opinions. Please start from finding reputable experts that can confirm the word "state-sponsored" in this article.
 * Sign and date your post. "One of the authors" is not really a signature.
 * About "almighty master": this is a very ridiculous claim. Did I block you? Did I threaten you in any way? Every editor is an almighty master in the sense they may request confirmations of what is written in the article. How about learning "avoid personal attacks" part of wikiquette?
 * The logic in my "Russian Empire" reference is that my history of edits clearly show that I have no history of taking a Russian side (and I am not Russian, by the way; if you know Russian language, I can tell you how an army sergeant mocked about my last name: "Kazhdoe govno konchaetsa na "o", kazhdyj govnyuk konchaetsa na "yuk"." However this did not make me russophob. I somehow saw the difference between idiots that exist in every nation and the nation itself and don't think that this funny say is an evidence that "the Russian language embeds certain stereotypes", as you have it written in the article.
 * If you don't like the b-word, I can type much longer phrases, kind of "false and misleading statements loaded with POV of the editor", although I am not sure you will like it better, since it has basically the same meaning.

Please take your time to do so in a future.
 * "If you don't like the b-word, I can type much longer phrases"

Also note that we refuse to discuss our motivation to write this article; with all due respect the fact that you personally have or have not done something, does not mean that we should follow your example. So please focus on the text of "caucasophobia" article itself and not on the authors of the article. However the remark which you have mentioned above as the example of your own tolerance is, in fact, extremely chauvinistic, especcialy if it was said by superior army officer after hearing Ukrainian or Belarusian family name. For those who do not speak fluent Russian it translates like:

Russophobia
Russophobia is definitely a diagnosis of many people around here (Fisenko 04:38, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC))
 * Wrong, buddy. Poorly coined term: should be Ruthenophobia. :-) mikka (t) 16:24, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * It is Russo phobia and it is existing term in Russian language (mostly by right wing but who cares) but I unlike caucasophobia which made it's way into English, I do not know how the prejudice against Russians is called in Eng. However the phenomena itself definitely exists: but not among Caucasians who simply are defending themselves against aggression. But the treatment of Russians as an "untermensch" during WW2,or discrimination against ethnically Russian Latvian non-citizens in contemporary Latvia are definitely an evidence of institutionalized Russo-phobia. As any other form of ethnicity related bigotry it also exists at the street level, but only solid historical facts are those above I think. It should be said though that leaving the events of Nazi occupation aside, Russians as an ethnicity rarely suffered from the "pogroms" and discrimination even in the countries where they have been a minority. But there is a clear discrimination within Russian society itself based not on the ethnical but on the social scale: prejudice against provincials and discriminative movement restrictions for inhabitants of rural land into metropolitan areas of Russia(especially among Muscovites) or discrimination of common man by Intelligentsia "elite" would be a best examples. Gabrichidze 20 : 00, June 18 2005 (UTC)
 * ''But there is a clear discrimination within Russian society itself based not on the ethnical but on the social scale: prejudice against provincials and discriminative movement restrictions for inhabitants of rural land into metropolitan areas of Russia(especially among Muscovites)

''
 * Cute. Is this why there is millions of provincials living in Moscow and working good jobs?

I think if we need to discuss whether the authors, or particularly user:Gabrichidze, is a russophobe, a place for this discussion is User talk:Gabrichidze. As for Gabrichidze's own speculations on how and where the Russian's experienced a hatred towards themselves and what name for this phenomenon is appropriate, I suggest he brings this up at talk:Russophobia which should perhaps evolve into an independent article, now being a redirect to -phobia. This article itself is controversial enough to generate lots of discussions. Looks like it is going to survive the VfD (I voted "delete"). So, hopefully, this page will help to clean it up so that it has at least some value for Wikipedia. Regards, -Irpen 18:25, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Private note: '''Ell can you PLEASE set your account and signature properly. People think you are a sockpuppet''' Cheers, Nick

VfD
Survived: Votes for deletion/Caucasophobia. mikka (t) 16:07, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Afrophobia: Soviet roots
One more, rather strange factor, which played role, but I don't put it in the article. At least in my university foreign students were freed from study of the most dreaded discipline, "History of the CPSU"! This was usually the punchline: "they have money, they have our girls,... and they don't have to learn the "history of cpsu"!!!!" or "... they don't have to study materials of twenty CPSU congresses!" Funny as it is, the phrase reflected the whole set of privileges for foreign students. mikka (t) 19:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Afrophobic urban legend
The following urban legend circulated in nearly every university I visited during my student times (there were traditions to celebrate "Department Days", with invitations of students from the same department from universities in other cites). In student hostels, students lived 3-4 persons per room. It was obligatory to have one "Russian" per room with foreigners. A russian boy in a room with africans was very friendly: he showed them ways around, helped them with various everyday things. At a certain moment he noticed that Africans tell him to do more and more. Finally, when one of them told the Russian to brush his shoes, so the Russian told him to fuck off in his best russian mat. Next day the dean received a complaint... from Africans.... that this Russian refused to brush their shoes! It turned out that they thought the Russian student was assigned to be a house servant to them. mikka (t) 19:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Racism is Russia" as the name for the article
I object to this new name for purely technical reasons. The article, as it currently stands, is devoted to many ethnic prejudices in Russia of which several are directed to groups which are of the same race as Russians: Jews (chapter Racism_in_Russia), and people from Caucasus (chapter Racism_in_Russia). So while certainly repugnant prejudices, these are not technically "racism". It would be more correct to call the article Ethnic prejudices in Russia (and of course such an article would be better based on solid sources rather than arbitrary picked news reports, but that's perhaps unattainable). Anyway, are there any reasons not to move this article to such or similar title? -Irpen 01:09, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd say that the term "prejudice" is too mild for the topic of the article. Prejudices it is, like, Estonians speak and think slowly, Ukrainians love bacon and don't like to share it, chukchas are well,... chukchas etc. The article speaks not about "opinions" (prejudice is a groundless negative opinion), but about dislike, discrimination, hatred, i.e., attitudes which is actually covered by phobia (attitude) article I separated from the main phobia article, but was surprized by everyone wanting to delete it. It will be my first deleted aricle. Now I got it all :-) (Actually, not yet. I was never been blocked.) I'm for something like Ethnic conflicts in Russia. Let's think a bit longer. No big rush IMO. mikka (t) 04:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree "prejudices" may be too soft. But "Ethnic conflicts" seems too broad. The article is about poor treatment of non-Russian minorities, discrimination and sometimes violence, but the treatment mainly by "Russians" and Russian authorities of non-Russians specifically due to their being "non-Russian". The conflict between, say, Chechens and Osetins is also an "ethnic conflict in Russia", however it would not fit into the context of the article. Any other ideas? -Irpen 05:04, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

 * "Racism" was coined to refer to Nazi ideology (translation of German "Völkisch"), and this certainly applied to Jews. (and neo-Nazi skinheads are directly inspired by it.) "Race" in English used to have a wider range of meaning including Nordic race vs. Alpine race vs. Mediterranean race, or simply nation as in the book "History of the Irish Race". More recently the meaning has mostly narrowed to continent-level racial groupings because of the tendency in the post-WWII USA and world in general to efface conflicts between "white" groups and concentrate on conflicts with African and Asian peoples and their diasporas. However, Americans condemning current negative attitude towards Arabs in USA do not hesitate to call it "racism" even though most Arabs are technically Caucasoid. As for news reports, they are legitimate examples, although they should not be considered to imply that Russia is worse than other countries, unless they cover statistics instead of just individual incidents. By the way, what is stereotype of Chukchis? Chukchi people mentions stereotype but doesn't say what it is. --JWB 22:26, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Take a look into Russian joke for more. "Chukcha" is a funny-sounding word for Russians and is often used as synonym of "dumb". There was a song, supposedly lyrical, with the line in the refrain "and choockcha in choom...", but instead people made a good laugh of it. (choom is chookcha's dwelling, kind of wigwam) mikka (t) 00:53, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Race doesn't always refer to any visually detectable differences. As the Wikipedia article says,

The term race describes populations or groups of people distinguished by different sets of characteristics, and beliefs about common ancestry. The most widely used human racial categories are based on visible traits (especially skin color, facial features and hair texture), and self-identification.

So in this sense, "racism" would appropriate, whereas "anti-national sentiment" is clearly inappropriate. In general usage, "anti-national sentiment" refers to not liking a particular state -- in this case, Russia. So according to the present title, the article would be about those in Russia who don't like the Russian state. Another meaning would be a preference for a local (as opposed to national) level of action in some issues: for example, an opinion that more power should be given to local governments. Lebatsnok 15:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Propiska and marriage
Removed:
 * In addition to individual bigotry, Caucasophobia is alleged to manifest itself as formalized prejudice and persecution, such as propiska laws (often likened to apartheid), and in extreme cases, official opposition to romantic and marital relationships between Slavs and ethnic Caucasians, particularly those involving Caucasian men and Slavic women. Compare with American miscegenation laws, which once forbade whites and blacks from marrying or producing children.

mikka (t) 19:27, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Propiska existed over 70 years. What is more, one of arguments of caucasophobs is exactly opposite: Caucasians easily bribe themselves a propiska, but it is next to impossible to register an elderly babushka from Tambov Oblast into Moscow to be cared by relatives.
 * There is no "official" opposition to marriage. But there is an opposition to loose control of fake marriages widely used to gain a propiska; and not only be Caucasians, and not only in Russia by the way.
 * Xenophobic opposition to "cross-alien" romances is no news and not at all specific to caucasophobia or even to racism. Exactly the same may be observed between two nearby villages in Kostroma Oblast. And its comparison to miscegenation laws, implying that this is an official policy, is out of place.

 * If a chechen marries a Russian girl it is considered multiculturlaism, if a Russian guy tries to date a chechen girl her relatives will cut off his head it is called tradition, but if Russians want to keep chechens out of Moscow that is called racism. What a sick and cruel joke modern day liberals have become.

 * mikka cease making discriminatory national insults. "if a Russian guy tries to date a chechen girl her relatives will cut off his head " complete discrimination and falsehood. Shame! What a sick and cruel joke modern day fascists have become.Noxchi Borz 22:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It was not my remark. It is a unsigned comment. `'mikka (t) 22:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * My apologies . Noxchi Borz 17:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

An Afro Russian's Experience

 * I am an Afro Russian, My father was a Zanzibari student who met and maried my mother who is originally from a small town near Moscow. I lived in Russia until I was 10 before my family settled in Britain. I am now a British citizen. I have visited Russia nad other FSU countries for business and family reasons throughout my life.

 * I do not remember any real negative racist experiences during my Russian childhood, being more of a curiosity. Growing up in Britain however was a much less pleasant expeirience. As a teenager I was racially bullied and threatened on many occasions. On my visits to FSU countries Russia,Georgia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan I have generally encountered nothing but frienship particularly since I am a fluent Russian Speaker. I have to say that I experienced much more Racism in Continental Europe particularly Poland - how about starting a Racism in Poland Article

I am half Sri Lankan and half Russian and i am darker than most "Kavkaz" people. I agree with Afro Russian. Danil

 * You will also deny murders of Armenian nationals in Moscow? How about Georgian student who was killed by Neo-Nazi group in St. Pitersburg? I spoke with many georgians, chechens, ingush, armenians and they all claim the same. They were discriminated all the time and also it was unsafe for them to live in Russia. Pay attention to recent killings of Armenians in Moscow. Ldingley 20:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree at all with Ldingley, racism does occur in many countries, but most Russians are not racist at all. I was actually suprised to see with my own eyes how brotherly Russian people have acted to people from other countries. We must not forget that some criminals both foreign and non foreign cause problems that seem to have racist roots.

 * Then why are so many of them living in Russia? And why more of their people are coming to live in Russia every year? For every foreigner killed, 100 Russians are murdered by those foreigners, but the Media only report the politically correct news.

 * Here is BBC link to: Russian racism 'out of control'
 * http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4969296.stm

Ldingley 20:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_n4_v20/ai_7756645 CHECK THIS OUT. Danil

 * Dingley, I believe that he's trying to share his individual experience in Russia, and point out that Russia is a vast country and, although hotbeds of racism may exist, in general Russians are nice people. I've visited Russia, and so have many of my friends, and aside from pickpocketing and bribing the local cops when we got caught speeding, we had no problems. Individual experiences in as vast a country as Russia may vary. You need to learn to accept others' viewpoints, instead of blindly pushing your own, if you are to continue to edit sensitive articles on Wikipedia. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 02:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Page move
In English "Anti-national sentiment" sounds like POV opposing it. Not sure if this is different in Russian. --JWB 21:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Neo-Bolshevik kids picture
The picture is is misleading and irrelevant for this article. The section talks about hostility towards Caucasians in Russian society. How does a picture of National-Bolsheviks - a fringe group with neo-Stalinist ideology (BTW it was neo-Stalinist in the past since the group changes its ideology every few years)- displaying picture of an ethnic Georgian KGB leader contributes anything to this article is beyond me. Fisenko 18:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Russian nationalists waive communist flag. Communism as an ideology opposes nationalism. Obviously, they are not the smartest people on earth. This picture is exactly relevant and portays the reality. Please don not vandalize the artcle. Sosomk 10:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

What reality ? You are obviously ignorant of the subject. These people are not mainstream Russian nationalists ,its a just fringe extremist group. In any case this picture has no relation to anti-Caucasian sentiment in the Russian society, which is a topic of this section of the article. Something like this would be an appropriate image: Fisenko 16:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The reality is that people do get attacked and killed by Russian nationalists. They don't like Nazi flags, because their ancestors probably died in the war with Nazis, but they like Commie flags. However, Communism opposes Nationalism as an ideology. So, my point is that they don't know what the heck are they doing and what they want. These kids are also nationalist who like Beria. I am Georgian and vast majority of Georgian people don't like Beria. If you are from the eastern Ukraine you might like him. Obviously, our opinions simply don't matter. Anti-Caucasian sentiment is basically a propaganda by some Russian politicians which is not planned well. That is what this picture shows. And calling ignorant somebody in an academical argument is not civil. Sosomk 06:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I never called you an ignorant person, I only said you are ignorant about this particular subject (attitudes and ideology of Russian nationalists). Vast majority of Russians don't like Beria as well. National-Bolsheviks are not part of "propaganda by some Russian politicians" but the most extreme anti-Putin group in Russia (which recently abandoned its neo-Stalinist ideology). Most Russian nationalists rarely use "Commie" flags but rather flag like this for example. In any case this is not the issue here, we already have one picture of National-Bolsheviks in the article and its fine. The second picture however is totally out of contest since 90% + of Russian nationalists with anti-Caucasian sentiments not only would not admire Beria but would more likely use crimes of Beria and Stalin to further justify their hostility towards Georgians. Fisenko 16:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Stalin and Beria were real Russian nationalists and had nothing to do with their Georgian background. They did care or had any feelings for their country of birth. On contrary, they have contribute greatly in destruction of Georgian society, culture and loss of her territories. I guess, French should blame Corsicans for Napoleon and Austrians should be responsible for Hitler. Ldingley 16:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Stalin, Beria, Ordzhonikidze were not Russian nationalists but rather Soviet Communists, in case you didn't know. Fisenko 16:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Fisenko, I don't want to argue with you. I respect your position and would rather work with you than arguing endlessly. Yes they were communists but they had nothing to do with Georgian character, culture or identity. So it’s pointless to mention about their Georgian background. My background is Scottish/Irish/English but i feel 100% Canadian. But as I said before, I rather work and co-operate with fellow Russians on Wiki articles. So let’s end this pointless discussion. BTW can you please tell me about the history of the flag (yellow, black, white) ? Thanks Ldingley 17:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you Ldingley it´s pointless to make a big point about their Georgian background, like some western educated people really do!. Well, one can always make a big thing about Hitler`s Austrian (or German?) background, but to me that would be equally pointless. Had Hitler really anything to do with the real Austrian/German character, culture or identity? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.237.145.51 (talk) 15:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

An interesting detail is that Stalin was possibly of Ossetian or Half-Ossetian/Half-Georgian background, and Beria belonged to a particular group of Georgians called Mingrelians.

This is a flag of Romanov dynasty and official flag of the Russian Empire until 1914. Russian nationalists often use this flag to show their opposition to "democratic" (meaning pro-Western/liberal) Russian elite (esp. under Yeltsin) who re-introduced white-blue-red flag after the Soviet Union collapse. For example some Wikipedians have userboxes like this : Fisenko 23:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose User:Fisenko and agree with Luis. Most people in the Westren World identify Stalin as Russian. Most of Fisenko's discussions are his own personal opinions than valid points and I am not gonna comment on them. In fact, I really don't care about the Russian Skinheads, let Russians worry about them. I simply don't see any difference between so-called Russian Nationalism and Soviet Union. Most Russians are very proud what hey have done during the past two centuries. It is also my opinion and I would appreciate if Fisenco does not turn red on this comment. Georgians have lots of culture than being proud of Stalin and Beria. We can give them to you as your May day present which you still celebrate and very proud of it. Sosomk 18:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Russian Nationalism is an ideology with little in common with Marxist-Leninist ideology of the Soviet Union. The best description of these differences can be found in Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's article The mortal danger: How misconceptions about Russia imperil America. PS May Day is celebrated as national holiday in most countries of the world exept United States, Canada and few others. In Russia May Day is concidered by most people as an extra holiday to spent on dacha, May holiday that evokes feeling of national pride in Russia is Victory Day on May 9. It was my understanding most Georgians celebrate it with pride as well. Fisenko 22:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't argue with you. You can be as Nationalist and proud as you want. Victory day of Russia is a holiday for Russians and not for everybody. One totalitarian government beat another one. However, I did loose my ancestors in the WWII, but the fake holiday like that is not celebrated in Georgia. Obviosly, it is a matter of opinion. Best Wishes from Georgia. Sosomk 10:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Once again you are mistaken. Victory Day is celebrated in Georgia on May 9, just like in Russia. ,, ,. Fisenko 14:46, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

OpposeSoory, Fisenko but bunch of war veterans getting together does not mean a National holiday of Georgia. As you know Saakashvili denied Putin's invitation on May Day last year. Georgia is a democratic country unlike Russua and people don't get shot for getting together and talking about their memories of war. Sosomk 09:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Did you read my links ? Its an official national holyday in Georgia with Burjanadze, Saakashvili and Catalikos-patriarch adresses to veterans etc. Fisenko 15:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Those veteras are our citizens and we obviously care about them. However, that day is not celebrated in Georgia  just like in Russia like you said. It is just a fictional day and we don't have parades and we don't burn Hitler's pictures and don't do the crap like that. Sosomk 12:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

You seriously think people in Russia burn Hitler's pictures on May 9 ? :) ha ha Fisenko 13:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they do. Sosomk 14:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Hitler salute and heil hitler
both are verified to have occured at russian nationalist rally in [|NY times article|]

please do not delete this from the article anymore as it is a proven truth —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pz9999 (talk • contribs) 13:45, 17 November 2006.

Title of article
The term "anti-national sentiment" makes no sense semantically and, consequently, does not convey the focus of this article, which is racism. I've read that the purpose for changing the title from "Racism in Russia" was to allow for coverage of a broader topic; but the title "Xenophobia in Russia" will better accomplish that goal by using a well-known term to avoid confusion.

Another concern of mine is that the article generally avoids the term "racism" (it only appears once in the prose). What may seem like a minor issue of semantics is actually quite serious, because it conceals the fact that unadulterated racism and neo-Nazism exist in Russia, and that they have reached proportions far greater than in any other European country.

-- WGee 05:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Xenophobia/racism strongly disagreed. "Nationalism", "ethnic prejudices" may be. Please suggest other versions, but please don't move without consensus. The article "conceals" nothing. In wikipedia we avoid slapping strong words in main titles. Redirects are welcome. `'mikka 21:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The article is clearly about racism and xenophobia. The title is an euphemism that IMO should not be tolerated: imagine someone calling Nazism an "anti-Jewish sentiment" (a nice little sentiment, ain't it?). There's no reason to be sentimental about racism: let's leave this to the racists. Lebatsnok 10:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

So outdated - now there are mass terrorist acts and profilic serial killers
Things such as:
 * 13 killed in 2006 Moscow market bombing
 * racist murderer Artur Ryno says he killed over 30, with 53 people killed and 460 injured in 2006

Terrorism convictions:
 * The Moscow Regional Court on April 10 sentenced two former defense industry workers to 18 and 19 years in prison for their role in the 2005 bombing of a Grozny-to-Moscow train, the Moscow Times reported on April 11. Mikhail Klevachyov was sentenced to 19 years and Vladimir Vlasov to 18 years in a maximum-security prison after being convicted on terrorism charges for planting a homemade bomb on train tracks in the Moscow region. Forty people were injured in the June 2005 blast. Investigators found nationalist books in the defendants’ apartments.

And what article is about - "jokes"?

Also Nazbols are not REALLY racist. A picture of an actual Neo-Nazi would be so much better. --HanzoHattori 15:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

On the night of 24 November 2003, a mysterious fire in a university student dormitory left over 40 foreign students dead. Russian media later cited a police source as saying all the doors leading to the fire escapes had been blocked. The fire services blame an electrical fault, however students blamed arsonists; the previous night, they said, two skinheads had been chased from the area following an attempted arson attack. There has been no police investigation. The home countries of the dead and injured are: China, Vietnam, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Angola, Ivory Coast, Tahiti, Morocco, Kazakhstan, Dominican Republic, Lebanon, Peru, Malaysia, Mongolia, India, Nigeria, Tanzania and Sri Lanka. In addition, Palestinians were also listed. --HanzoHattori 23:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Also
UN EXPERT WARNS OF RACIST AND XENOPHOBIC 'DYNAMIC' IN RUSSIA.

A United Nations expert on racism, Doudou Diene, told a meeting of the Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council on June 11 that there is a "deep dynamic of racism and xenophobia in Russian society which articulates itself in the spread of racist crimes notably perpetrated by neo-Nazi groups," AFP reported. "The perpetuation of racist violence and xenophobia constitutes the most serious threat...to the democratic process in the Russian Federation," Diene said, adding that a "profound social and economic crisis" is feeding "the ideology of nationalism." AFP quoted Russia's delegate to the UN Human Rights Council, Valery Loshchinin, as calling Diene's report "partisan and politicized." Loshchinin added, "We don't claim to be perfect, but to speak of a social and economic crisis in Russia when the situation is stable is exaggerated." Aleksandr Brod, director of the Moscow Bureau for Human Rights, told Interfax on June 5 that about 120 racially motivated attacks took place in Russia between January and May of this year, in which 31 people were killed and at least 120 injured. According to Brod, 21 people were killed and 42 injured in Moscow, three died and 19 were injured in St. Petersburg, and 22 were injured in Nizhegorod Oblast. Natives of Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Armenia, and African countries were the most frequent targets of such attacks. Brod said there has been a "sharp growth" in the number of racially motivated attacks in Russia over the last three years, with seven people killed and around 100 injured during the first half of 2004, 10 killed and 200 injured in the first half of 2005 and 17 killed and 130 injured in the first half of 2006. The daily "Vremya novostei" reported on May 28 that Artur Ryno, an 18-year-old student at an icon-painting school who was detained in mid-April on suspicion of murdering a 46-year-old Armenian, Karen Abramyan, in Moscow, told investigators that he and a friend -- Pavel Skachevsky, also 18 -- killed 37 people in racially motivated attacks since August 2006. JB

RFE/RL NEWSLINE Vol. 11, No. 107, Part I, 12 June 2007

If anyone cares. --HanzoHattori 14:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Sentimentalism
If there's no "anti-Russian sentiment" anymore (in the new trend in Wikipedia), I think this one should be changed accordingly back to Racism in Russia too. --HanzoHattori 11:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree! Mariah-Yulia 16:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd support it too. How about Racism in modern Russia ? Also the content of the article on such a sensitive topic should be later changed to strictly follow the scope defined in the title. We should also pay attention that everything is properly referenced and specifically POV pushing is avoided as much as possible. Boy, am I getting so naive again ... ? Anyway, we should make sure that the topic is not too broad. Let's wait a while to see other opinions/options and then file a WP:RM. --Lysytalk 16:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Racism in modern Russia is a good idea, you are right about the references! Mariah-Yulia 17:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Since there were no other suggestions and everyone involved seems to support the rename, it's a non-controversial move. Let's simply rename it and not waste on formal voting. --Lysytalk 08:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite - comment and some proposals
A lot of things missed. For example, bombing of the Moscow market (numerous fatalities) and the bombing of the train from Grozny, or the teenager Artur Ryno who told the police earlier this year he killed 37 people after arrested for one murder.

The article is such a mess I don't even know if there's included this dormitory fire in which dozens of foreign students died. (Probably not.)

Recently (this week) the police arrested the group who executed some kidnapped people and videotaped it (there are also numerous articles related to the subject linked there, including one titled "Russian racism 'out of control'").

Also of course there is the police violence linked to the deadly attacks, as in this incident. (Oddly enough, the police brutality article and category is seemingly about the USA & UK only.) Some of the crimes commited by the troops serving in Chechnya also appear to be racially-motivated. --HanzoHattori 12:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you want me to rewrite this article? I'd do start this generally anew, with three general headers dealing with the hostilities against the Jews (short, there's an article on this), against the Caucasian ethnic minorities, and against the foreigners in general (students and migrant workers). --HanzoHattori 12:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would support this. But a question remains: can the ethnically motivated attitudes and violence be classified as "racism"?Biophys 15:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

 * It seems that BBC journalists and Amnesty International do consider this as "racism". See Racist attacks that stain Russia, By James Rodgers, BBC News, Russian racism 'out of control', and Russian Federation. Violent racism out of control. However, it would be probably better to rename this article as Xenophobia and racism in modern Russia.Biophys 17:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

 * "In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."  UN International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, NEW YORK 7 March 1966Biophys 17:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality
I've nominated this article to be checked for neutrality, because it makes Russians seem bad and paints the minorities as the victim, mentions nothing about immigrants' racism against Russians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koliak2991 (talk • contribs) 01:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

"White Christian Russians"
There is a section in the article that briefly mentions the beheading of a Tajik and a Dagestani, saying that it was perpetrated by "white Christian Russians". I am not white, nor Christian, nor Russian yet I found this extremely offensive. Also, it shouldn't be in the article. Here's why:

1. the use of the word "white": People from the Caucuses (regardless of whatever nonsense skinheads or a narrow-minded Russian nationalists spew, or any attempt to prove the contrary) are by and large white. Dagestanis are white. Period. End of discussion. This is a white-on-white attack, though, admittedly, motivated by ethnic differences (not racial). That's first. 2. Second, "Christian": Wow, did the writer of this section know the perpetrators so well that he knows what beliefs they hold? Did the perpetrators wear a cross? Is there at least SOME evidence showing that they're Christian? No. In fact, neo-Nazis tend to be anti-Christian. Slavic neo-Nazist are either atheist/agnostic or "pagan", mostly Slavic pagan. They see Christian teachings contradicting the basis of Nazism. This leads me to another point - the use of the word "Russian". 3. There is no concrete evidence that it was done by "White Christian Russians". The perpetrators wore masks, and their faces was never revealed. In fact, it is quite possible that the beheading, whether real or not, was done by a "caucasian" to put Russians in bad light. However, I can't vouch for the veracity of this statement. I saw the video (a simple google search will show you), and trust me, there is no way this was fake. But my only concern here is that there is concrete proof that the beheading was carried out by a Russian.

Therefore, I am changing it to "alleged neo-Nazis", which is COMPLETELY different from "White Christian Russians". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.212.72.104 (talk) 06:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand that the intentions are good, but one can only refer to native Caucasians as white to the same extent as, say, to Turks or to Palestinians. --Humanophage (talk) 01:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

 * i agree, i did further research on it and i figured that many of them are not 'white' even in the Western sense of the world. HOWEVER, some of them are indeed white, check this site out: http://robertlindsay.blogspot.com/2007/08/are-dagestanis-and-tajiks-white.html (it's a blog, so not quite 'citable', but regardless, there are some interesting information there) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.212.72.104 (talk) 09:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Northern Caucasians are white, in fact the first registered white humans on earth. Transcaucasians - from the southern caucasians - have a darker skin. Nervertheless Neo Nazis in Russia consider all the Caucasians dark. Why? Because they're stupid. 62.163.232.175 (talk) 15:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the statement that Dagestanis and other north caucasians are predominantly white. Otherwise we could take a minority of non-white slavic russians (not very common) and also call russians non-white as whole based on this. The Dagestani man behaded was white in the video i saw. Not only that but even a blonde haired armenain women was under threat because she was considered 'black' by russian skinheads. That's why it's important to clarify in the article that this terminology of 'black' is nothing but politcial. Otherwise Azerbaijan's president Ilham Aliyev who has dark blond hair is also 'black' which is absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.116.222 (talk) 18:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

 * No, that is not "political" but rather "ethnic" hatred. They would attack an African with a greater probability than Ilham Aliyev, but the latter is a possible target too. Yes, this is all absurd.Biophys (talk) 18:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems as though that last sentence 'clarifying' why they are called black is nothing more than an attempt to ensure they are still perceived as being 'white' and 'European' to the English reader (I'd take a guess it was written by a Caucasian :D) - the terms are sociological and more importantly relative - they're referred to as 'black' because of the simple fact that Caucasians in general are darker than the Russians pointing out a couple who have blond hair will never get rid of that fact. The same way that Lebanese are attacked in Australia for being non-white whereas in Latin America they'd easily fall into the category of 'white'. That sentence 'clarifying' that it's because of black hair is both ridiculous and weaselicious ;D 2.223.219.154 (talk) 10:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

 * That Caucasians are actually darker than Russians on average is even questionable. Granted, Armenians and Azerbaijanis are, and Georgians maybe but not by much. But there are some very pale Caucasians (especially in the North Caucasus) and some rather tan (and sometimes almost Mongoloid looking, especially in Siberia) Russians. There isn't really that much of a noticeable difference between the real skin colors of the people as a whole. It's more a matter of perception. Lastly, I don't think the sentence is "weaselicious", I think its more that the average reader, especially one familiar with the Caucasus, knows that the Caucasians are actually rather white, so it would be confusing for them without that sentence (although I'll grant you it's not really the case either- there are plenty of black haired Russians, and some blond Circassians and Chechens). --Yalens (talk) 21:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

The racist type of Russians being talked about in this article are mostly the types that live west of the Urals i.e. Northern Europeans - their treatment to those Siberians has already been addressed. Armenians and Azeris are but not Georgians? - what about Nikoloz Gilauri then? Is he some kind of Georgian freak of nature? That sentence is a frantic effort to ensure foreigners believe that the Caucasus is a region inhabited by 'white' people - whatever that means. Stormfront would be proud.90.222.189.33 (talk) 10:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

 * The racial type of Caucasians is not particularly on topic here, but by definition, Caucasians are the definition of "whites", often used as a synonym for the Caucasian race, named after them (specifically after Georgians and Circassians). As for Russians, I have known at least a couple Russians from European Russia who are at least pretty tan, though the majority are typical Eastern Europeans. Arguing Caucasians are not Caucasoid or "white is like arguing Mongols are not Mongoloid or "yellow". In any case, "race" is only a matter of perception, but the fact is that Caucasians are not significantly darker than Russians on average in skin color (and even in the case of hair color, though Caucasians are typically black-haired, there are a handful of blond or even redhead Caucasians- Maryam Tashaeva being an example of blond Chechen, for example). The designation of Caucasians as "black" has less to do with their actual physical appearance than it does with sociopolitical and cultural factors. As for Stormfront, the last I heard of that site as a matter of fact is was talking about the allegedly valiant struggles of "White Arian Russians" against the non-Arian Caucasians, though for obvious reasons I don't peek at Stormfront very often- and Stormfront should not be even taken seriously. In any case, this is a rather pointless topic here over a very minor issue.--Yalens (talk) 18:13, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately it is indeed a very serious issue - where on earth do you think these Russians pulled the appellation 'black' from? I'm sorry but you're in total denial - no matter how small you think the difference may be it is an issue of relativism - Caucasians are on average darker than Russians - and this is where the term black comes from - fact. You've as much as admitted it yourself. This nomenclature is not just limited with Russians to Caucasians but also South Slavs towards Greeks and in many other circumstances around the world - keep pretending it isn't true if it makes you feel better - I am however satisfied that my objections to this sycophancy have been raised clearly for the record. ZMTYA 90.222.189.33 (talk) 18:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

 * (I'm not really sure how this is such a serious issue to you) Yes, nobody has ever denied that Caucasians are on average darker than Russians. Although the issue is interesting and both King and Jaimoukha have discussed it before in their writings- Jaimoukha (himself a Circassian) notes that the perception of the appearance of Caucasians is different between Western Europeans and Russians. Western Europeans who traveled to the Caucasus described the Circassians, Georgians and Chechens as being apparently slim, tall, large-eyed, black-haired and pale-skinned, whereas for the Russian mind, Caucasian conjures up a very different image-olive-skinned, curly-haired, and (sometimes) short. But the sentence should stay in there because it does clarify, as any normal reader who is familiar with the Caucasus and its people who clearly aren't black (black in teh English sense of the word meaning sub-Saharan African), and that the definition of "black" does indeed have to do with non-Russian facial appearance and cultural factors. That's why I think whoever put it there put it there. Its at least not a "frantic effort by foreignors", and nothing of the sort. --Yalens (talk) 19:53, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Black is not a universal term meaning 'Sub-Saharan African' Black in this context means dark for the Russians, many northern european cultures have historically used it to refer to southern peoples in mediterranean latitudes - I like it how after a little badgering I've finally gotten you to admit the blatantly obvious and give up another instance of wiki white washing - which is indeed a very serious issue. BLACK and WHITE have always been relative terms, not absolute ones. It's just a shame Nikoloz Gilauri, Kim Kardashian and all the other freak-caucasians couldn't just go away so that northern europeans can have the idea that this region is inhabited by people who look exactly like them. 90.222.189.33 (talk) 23:43, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Russian Racists can be also Atheists or Agnostics and Neonazis are always Neopagans.--Jörg Gerstenmalz (talk) 20:19, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Against Poles
Poles have also been victims of ethnic attacks in Russia. Additionally there is some heavy anti-polish literature by nationalist circles published in Russia, including political ideologists from Eurasianism movement for example, who believe destruction of Poland is one of core goals of Russia.--Molobo (talk) 22:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

This article one-sided, anti-white, anti-Russian
While it presents the very few facts of attacks against the odious non-white invaders into Russia, this articles completely ignores the numerous crimes and atrocities committed by the so called "immigrants". While we can always blame the media for not reporting on those in their "news", and therefore depriving wikipedians of sources of reference, it is still the responsibility of the contributors to find sources that would make this article less one-sided. One may look at official government crime statistics and patriotic press to find the gruesome tales of non-Russian crimes against the native Slavic population. Let alone all the flood of drugs that the fathers of Tajik girls bring to Russia. Did anybody care to ask, how can a Tajik, father of the Tajik girl, be renting a $200 dollars apartment while he was only making $150 at his "official" job? One good thing out of all of this is a firm proof that liberalism's grip is tight on the throat of the West and it will suffocate it soon enough and prevent it from being duped any longer into projecting its violence onto other societies. Albeit, we'll all miss the great Western civilization's positive moments. Keep it up wikipedians, remain in your blissful idiocy. --Ram2006 (talk) 02:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I stopped reading at "the non-white invaders into Russia".

 * You stopped reading his valid complaint because you disagree with his personal opinion? That's pretty ignorant. 216.185.250.92 (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Information about the Moscow Protestant Chaplaincy's report was deleted due to the missing or not available source. Moreoever, it is not clear what type of authority this organization has in such matter. In addition, comments about "monkeys" also was deleted due to the unfactual citation of the source: the person in the interview was speaking about Soviet times from 1980-s, not currently, not in Russia. And it is only 2 minutes of reading. The article is surely biased. Ignat Vershinin (talk) 01:49, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Hostility towards Caucasians/Muslims
1. "Caucasophobia is a neologism, introduced in the Russian and Caucasian media (as Кавказофобия)." - where are the soursce and the list of concred newspapers. TV channels etc.? 2. "Members of these ethnicities are often depicted as dangerous savages who are a threat to public safety."- What does the author mean "often"? how many times are they depicted as a dangerous savages? Any sources? If u have no sourses, please dont write "often". I propose "sometimes" instead of " often" 3. "Following the Russian-Georgian crisis of September and October 2006, Russian authorities have rounded up Georgians and demanded that schools draw up lists of pupils with Georgian last names."- Russian authorities ve rounded up Georgian for the purpose of a discovering  illegal immigrants ( look  http://www.lenta.ru/news/2006/10/06/chase/_Printed.htm  - on russian) .A discovering of illegal immigrants is a duty of Immigration Service in all countries.Authourities have a right to take any legal measures ( a drawing up lists of last names is  not prohibited legal step) in oder to discover and to deport illegal immigrants.It s a worldwide legal practice. According that, activity of russian authorites cant be recognized as a racism.

4. The authorities have also taken other actions that have led protesters in Moscow to draw a parallel between modern Russian initiatives with Nazi Germany's initiatives to round up Jews.[8] It s the uncorrect comparison whithout any cases,sources ( http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?article=384022&lng=1 is dead). That s why I delete it right now.

Speaking about "anti-caucasianism", there is one group thati s always mentioned and it seems to be the Chechens, which quite many times been pointed out in this discussion-article (also adding other caucasian muslims). Studying russian/soviet history there seems to be a (maybe weak) link leading back to the Stalin era when some caucasian (along with others) peoples were deported to Siberia and Central Asia. Before the communist era there was hostiliy to jews in particular, but there is no mention of any particular hostiliy to chechens (and other caucasians) in these times. so this is a relatively new thing, this "anti-caucasianism". Indeed there were at times violent hostility towards armenians in the tsarist empire.

One way to explain: when the Soviet union broke down ther were criminal "structures" from perhaps any ethnic group (russians included) that suddenly you were free to do everything. It developed in to a struggle between russian and other criminal gangs. Among the others there were caucasian (and central asian) groups. To some russians: "these chornye is behaving badly". And to other not so educated russians it would seem like "they are all like that". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.237.145.126 (talk) 15:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems like the Russians are not very specific when they talk about "Caucasians"; when looking at an ethnographical map over the Caucasus region, one see that there is a "hodgepotch" of different peoples with different languages and religions. One can divide it in 1) christian orthodox peoples, and 2) muslim peoples, and 3) different languages: some are regarded as indigenious caucasian languages, while others belong to the Indo-european group (like russian). For example what do Georgians and Chechens have in common, except being "black"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.237.145.125 (talk) 18:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Going to the "sources", statistical report of racist attacks in Russia. Now i should say i have only read some of them: but it seems that the majority of the victims are not Caucasians but rather Central Asians like Uzbeks and Tajiks. Among Caucasians it seems to be Armenians, Azerbaijanians and Chechens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.237.145.125 (talk) 19:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

What is meant with an "Slavic facial appearance"? Among different Slavic peoples there are various facial appearances, let alone Russians! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.237.145.51 (talk) 15:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Hostility towards Central Asians/Muslims

5 "Despite overwhelming evidence against them" Does anybody see the list of evidence?If no, please dont write this. Where is the source of information?

6. " by a jury which consisted entirely of ethnic Russians" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Saint_Petersburg#Ethnicity - 84.72% of Saint Petersburg's population are russian. Is it abnormal that. the jury consisted of ethic Russian? 79.126.50.5 (talk) 18:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)MPB The region of Finnish speaking people now consist entirely of ethnic Russians - is normal - no it is not it shows that Russian politics of forced assimilation ,forced Russification are the real background for Russian Nazism .Up to 1930 people around Petersburg talked Finnic language .Edelward (talk) 09:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Muslims aren't a race.--Jörg Gerstenmalz (talk) 20:15, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Hostility towards Caucasians/Muslims
1. Caucasophobia is a neologism, introduced in the Russian and Caucasian media (as Кавказофобия)." - where are the soursce and the list of concred newspapers. TV channels etc.?

2. "Members of these ethnicities are often depicted as dangerous savages who are a threat to public safety."- What does the author mean "often"? how many times are they depicted as a dangerous savages? Any sources? If u have no sourses, please dont write "often". I propose "sometimes" instead of " often"

3. "Following the Russian-Georgian crisis of September and October 2006, Russian authorities have rounded up Georgians and demanded that schools draw up lists of pupils with Georgian last names." - Russian authorities ve rounded up Georgian for the purpose of a discovering  illegal immigrants ( look  http://www.lenta.ru/news/2006/10/06/chase/_Printed.htm  - on russian) .A discovering of illegal immigrants is a duty of Immigration Service in all countries.Authourities have a right to take any legal measures ( a drawing up lists of last names is  not prohibited legal step) in oder to discover and to deport illegal immigrants.It s a worldwide legal practice. According that, in that case,activity of russian authorites cant be recognized as a racism.

4. The authorities have also taken other actions that have led protesters in Moscow to draw a parallel between modern Russian initiatives with Nazi Germany's initiatives to round up Jews.[8] It s the uncorrect comparison whithout any cases,sources ( http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?article=384022&lng=1 is dead). That s why I delete it right now.

Hostility towards Central Asians/Muslims

5. "Despite overwhelming evidence against them" Does anybody see the list of evidence?If no, please dont write this. Where is the source of information? 6. " by a jury which consisted entirely of ethnic Russians" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Saint_Petersburg#Ethnicity - 84.72% of Saint Petersburg's population are russian. Is it abnormal that. the jury consisted of ethic Russian? 79.126.50.5 (talk) 18:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)MPB

Muslims are not a race.--Jörg Gerstenmalz (talk) 20:14, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

how is this racism affecting tourists?
Does this racism affect tourist's? Like im an norwegian, would there be a posibility that i could be a victim of a racist attack if i was going to moscow or st. petersburg for 5 days? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skino (talk • contribs) 22:11, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

 * It depends on your skin colour. Assuming you are ethnic norwegian, you shouldn't have a problem.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.31.229.246 (talk) 17:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This thing about Skinheads and racist attacks has been a plague in the west for many years, and now it seems to have come to Russia, and it seems like the newsmedia "loves" to report about it. For example in Sweden during the 90s the hole decade out there was a debate about racism, xenophobia and skinheads. But how it affects tourists? well in Stockholm for example there were reports on skinhead attacks, but never any specifally against tourists. But for example in much bigger city like Moscow, where it´s said "racism out of control" (it is indeed always "uncontrolable"). If i´m going there as a tourist would i ever be so "unfortunate" as to confront racist skinheads in the metro or anywhere? The point is how likely is it that a foreign tourist in Moscow or St Petersburg might confront these kind of people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.237.145.125 (talk) 19:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I do not recall this many racist killings at any point in time during the history of my own country, which is not far away from Sweden.Grey Fox (talk) 14:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Stormfront
Many people on this website approve of these sorts of attitudes. I think Stormfront is a pretty hilarious website myself.--I Want To Do This (talk) 04:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, bunch of raving lunatics on that site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlecTrevelyan402 (talk • contribs) 13:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Nomination for Deletion
POV against Putin, Medvedev and United Russia. Pure, blatant and simple. Why 2000s? Did racism in Russia not exist prior to the new millenia? Were there no racial attacks under Yeltsin? No racism under Gorbachev? I read people, who wrote this article pretending racism not to exist in Russia prior to Putin coming to power, are the exact same ones speaking of anti-Baltic racism in the USSR, before Putin's coming to power. Looks like someone wants to eat their cake and have it too. This article must either be expanded, or deleted. Racism doesn't emerge overnight, and unless you, dummies who wrote the article, want to get laughed out of wikipedia, I recommend you change it. "And elected, Putin was. And racism came into Russia." Is that the point of this biased article the same one reiterated so many times in hopes the lie can become the truth of "Putin = bad"? FYI - worst racial atrocities in Russia occurred under Yeltsin's "Democracy". HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 02:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Nice conspiracy theory. In reality, though, there is no cabal with a purpose of spreading anti-Putin/anti-Medvedev/anti-United Russia POV. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 17:47, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Except certain oil companies that Putin kicked out of Russia. The same "powerless" cabal that led the US into a disastrous war in Iraq. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 23:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your conspiracy theory about the conspiracy theory, but it is not based in fact. All oil companies are too busy going after free energy inventors, they just can't afford spreading anti-Putin/anti-Medvedev/anti-United Russia POV. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 07:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

 * I think the article is far from being a soapbox. It does connect three entities together, a country, racism and the decade, but I guess the much higher occurrence of the crimes at the intersection of the coordinates is mentioned in the news.  If you find references to ethnic hate crimes committed by groups of trained nationalists in Russia of the 80s or 90s, including murders of anti-nationalist activists, you could create another article and merge or categorize them.  The head of the state, later of the government, is mentioned twice in a positive key.  I could not find his name criticized in the article.  BTW, if the head of the government and the head of the state see the surge of hate crimes, they can straighten things up any time by enforcing the law.  Stepping down is also an option. --ilgiz (talk) 18:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually under Yeltsin a lot more ethnic crimes occurred then under Putin. All of the hate groups in Russia got their start under Yeltsin, and then simply rebranded themselves to survive under Putin. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 23:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The article should be named Racism in Russia. Ostap 00:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. And it should start out in the 1990's, not when Putin assumed power. If you rename the article, and include racial data under Yeltsin, I'll drop my protest. HistoricWarrior007 (talk) 23:49, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that you don't object to discussing racism in Russia, you just want to blame Yeltsin and not Putin on it? ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 07:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. The 1990s' racism was conducted by people of an older generation; people who had been subjected to Soviet notions about ethnic relations from an early age.  People who have been pushing racism in the recent years are largely people who are too young to remember Soviet times, so they rely on other ideological bases.  Naturally, 2000 is not an exact cutoff line, but it's a reasonably round number to separate these two generations. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 07:56, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Why not just put it all in one article in different sections? Ostap 21:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Nice conspiracy theory. In reality, though, there is no cabal with a purpose of spreading anti-Putin/anti-Medvedev/anti-United Russia POV." --  Ha! Nice conspiracy indeed. I think everyone should take a look at this and laugh at that bold faced lie. LokiiT (talk) 03:52, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

racism in the Soviet Union
I think this should be mentioned or at least have an article. Its not like the Soviet bullshit game that everyone saw eachother as "internationalists" was anything else but that: bullshit. Tallicfan20 (talk) 10:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

While this article is undoubtedly necessary, it needs to talk about origins. You can't talk about Russia without mentioning the USSR; likewise, racism in USSR and origins of "Racism in Post-Soviet Russia" needs to be expanded on. Also, there is little to no mention of anti-fascist parties, groups. And what about the economic origins of it in the "turbulent 90s?" An economy going down the tubes will cause a lot of people to point fingers at those they feel are responsible, and the unfortunate scapegoats tend to be those different from them. What about cultural references - in film, etc?

Problems with link to Russian version of the Wiki page
The English version talks about Russian racist-extremists. The Russian page merely talks about "Racism and racial discrimination," definitions of racism, and mainly only examples in the US. They need to be unlinked or edited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.9.203.200 (talk) 19:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

i would like someone to try to source this claim that "racism against africans can be traced to the soviet union" etc. this is quite a claim to include without a single SOURCE.

i think it should be removed until it is sourced —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.109.122.107 (talk) 01:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

 * kill niggers = kill APE criminality

Problem with the intro
"Racism in Russia appears mainly in the form of negative attitudes and actions by Russians towards people who are not considered ethnically Russian. "

I don't get it, Russians are a recognized Slavic ethnic group, even by Wikipedia, so why this subtle implication ?

--Savakk (talk) 19:32, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Decline of reported hate crimes
Not entirely the case; hate crimes are still on the rise, especially with the upcoming 2018 FIFA World Cup that is being held in Russia. 24.41.226.211 (talk) 19:15, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

 * reported by by British Broadcast and radio free liberty sponsored by the US and UK government. Have you any free media reports other than state media? nope--Crossswords (talk) 04:36, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

also both your articles are outdated, one in 2003 and the other in 2007.--Crossswords (talk) 04:38, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

 * Both those sources are reliable, although if they're outdated that's a problem.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Decline of reported hate crimes in 2009 - what happened later?Xx236 (talk) 11:46, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

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Racism against Central Asians?
What about the Racism against people from Middle Asia.--Jörg Gerstenmalz (talk) 20:13, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Racism in Russia


text:
Talk:List of Major League Baseball players from South Korea

Table clean up
Just leaving a reminder to clean up the table a bit.. —Borgardetalk 10:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Names
Maybe there should be a note about the names. In general, Wikipedia puts family names first; but here, the family names are last (not apparent, since the given names are not hyphenated). I assume this is because they probably conform their names to North American use.211.225.33.104 (talk) 23:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

RfC about writing Chinese characters

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the Chinese characters be removed from this list of Korean players? Sawol (talk) 01:28, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Survey

 * Yes. This is just a list. All players have their pages themselves. Chinese characters are written in players' pages, respectively. Writing in the list like this is redundant. We should remove Chinese characters from the list. Sawol (talk) 01:28, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * No. First, I'm new to talk pages, so I'm not too familiar with the rules and etiquette, so please pardon my ignorance. Anyway, I disagree, adding the Hanja is just a cool extra feature as part of the page.  To be fair, one can make a similar argument for the Hangul, as they are on the players' pages too.  In my opinion, adding the Hanja makes the list look a little more professional-looking and complete. I think we should keep Chinese characters on this list. Bladebuster700 (talk) 04:43, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * To be fair, how about removing both Korean characters and Chinese characters? Excessive columns make the mobile view poor. Sawol (talk) 14:11, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, I guess that can work. Bladebuster700 (talk) 16:56, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Yes. 1) Because all the entries already have pages and each page covers the details of each player including the names in the two other languages, it seems redundant here. 2) Because the English Wikipedia is intended to be written in English for English speakers, I believe the majority of the readers will not be able to read those columns, making them less valuable on this page. 3) I also agree that the extra columns make the table more difficult to read in the mobile view. [Note: Please accept my apology for changing the layout to a more standard RfC format for improved readability. If that is undesired, please feel free to revert my changes.] § Music Sorter §  (talk) 23:28, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/QTF

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. JYolkowski // talk 15:14, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

QTF
Dicdef; transwiki to wikt: +sj +  04:38, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete slang dicdef. JamesBurns 05:45, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * keep notable Chubby Chicken 15:39, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Above recently created account, Chubby Chicken, is voting "keep, notable" for numerous clearly non-notable (indeed bordering on speedy) articles. Please keep that grain of information in mind when counting votes. -- BD2412 talk 20:18, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)
 * Delete. Neologism not even in common enuf use for Wiktionary. Niteowlneils 17:41, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Transwiki You 19:30, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fine for Wiktionary, not for Wikipedia. -- BD2412 talk 20:18, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)
 * Not that fine. This meaning is unattested, and is simply yet another Urban Dictionary protologism.  The attested expansion of the initialism is "Quality Task Force". Delete. Uncle G 01:39, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)
 * Perhaps - the underlying gist of my vote was "get it out of Wikipedia". I leave it to Wiktionarians to say what stays or goes there. -- BD2412 talk 03:29, 2005 Jun 13 (UTC)
 * delete obscure neo --TimPope 22:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/QTF


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Doug Basham Show

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. Golbez 06:55, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Doug Basham Show
29 Google hits doesn't seem to be many for a syndicated talk show host, especially when 4 sites account for 18 of them. Non-notable. --Xcali 04:38, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete non notable. JamesBurns 05:45, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * keep notable Chubby Chicken 15:39, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Above recently created account, Chubby Chicken, is voting "keep, notable" for numerous clearly non-notable (indeed bordering on speedy) articles. Please keep that grain of information in mind when counting votes. -- BD2412 talk 20:16, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)
 * Delete, by the way - not sufficiently notable. -- BD2412 talk 20:17, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)
 * Comment. Oh yes, a true democracy, where some people's votes count more than others. Chubby Chicken 03:33, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, Wikipedia is quite explictly not a democracy; in practice, it's more like a meritocracy, where positive contributions earn greater weight for votes, while negative contributions reduce the weight given to votes. -- BD2412 talk 05:16, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable. Quale 19:31, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable local (not syndicated) talk show host. I wonder if he knows that he shares a name with a pro wrestler?   — Gwalla | Talk 05:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .