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Cacerolazo

In Spanish, a cacerolazo ( or ) or cacerolada ; also in Catalan a cassolada ( or ) is a form of popular protest which consists of a group of people making noise by banging pots, pans, and other utensils in order to call for attention.

The first documented protests of this style occurred in France in the 1830s, at the beginning of the July Monarchy, by opponents of the regime of Louis Philippe I of France. According to the historian Emmanuel Fureix, the protesters took from the tradition of the charivari the use of noise to express disapproval, and beat saucepans to make noise against government politicians. This way of showing discontent became popular in 1832, taking place mainly at night and sometimes with the participation of thousands of people.

More than a century later, in 1961, "the nights of the pots" were held in Algeria, in the framework of the Algerian War of Independence. They were thunderous displays of noise in cities of the territory, carried out with homemade pots, whistles, horns and the cry of "French Algeria".

In the following decades, this type of protest was limited almost exclusively to South America, with Chile being the first country in the region to register them. Subsequently, it has also been seen in Spain—where it is called cacerolada or, in Catalan, cassolada)—and in other countries, like the Netherlands, where it's called lawaaidemonstratie (noise protest).

The word comes from Spanish cacerola, which means "stew pot". The derivative suffixes -azo and -ada denote a hitting (punching or striking) action. This type of demonstration started in 1971 in Chile, against the shortages of food during the administration of Salvador Allende.

When this manner of protest was practiced in Canada, in English it was referred to by most media as "casseroles" rather than the Spanish term cacerolazo. In the Philippines, the unrelated term "noise barrage" is used for this and a wider set of protest-oriented noisemaking. During the Martial Law period, a noise barrage was held on the eve of the 1978 elections for the Interim Batasang Pambansa, to protest against the authoritarian government of President Ferdinand Marcos.

2000s
One of the largest cacerolazos occurred in Argentina during 2001, consisting largely of protests and demonstrations by middle-class people who had seen their savings trapped in the so-called corralito (a set of restrictive economic measures that effectively froze all bank accounts, initially as a short-term fix for the massive draining of bank deposits). The corralito meant that many people who needed a large amount of cash immediately, or who simply lived off the interests from their deposits, suddenly found their savings unavailable. As court appeals were slow and ineffective, people resorted to protest in the streets.

As the Argentine peso quickly devalued and foreign currency fled the country, the government decreed a forced conversion of dollar-denominated accounts into pesos at an arbitrary exchange rate of 1.4 pesos per dollar. At this point the unavailability of cash for people trapped in the corralito compounded with the continuous loss of value of their savings, and the unresponsiveness of the appeal authorities (minor courts and the Supreme Court itself) further angered the protesters.

The first cacerolazos were spontaneous and non-partisan. While in Argentina most demonstrations against government measures are customarily organized by labour union activists and low-level political recruiters among the lower classes, and often featuring an assortment of large banners, drums and pyrotechnic devices, cacerolazos were composed mostly of spontaneously gathered middle-class workers, who otherwise had little to no involvement in grassroots political actions of any kind.

The cacerolazo later led to organised street protests, often of a violent nature, directed against the government and banks. Facades were spray-painted, windows broken, entrances blocked by tire fires and some building occupied by force.

In order to avoid further unrest, especially after the December 2001 riots, the government decided against a more forceful approach against the cacerolazos unless absolutely necessary and restricted police presence to barricades in critical spots.

Isolated cacerolazos also featured during the apagón ("blackout") of September 24, 2002, to protest against increases in public service fees requested by the providers. As the financial and macroeconomic conditions became more stable, the government loosened the restrictions on the withdrawal of deposits, and the cacerolazos ceased.

On March 25, 2008, a group led by Luis D'Elía, a supporter of the Kirchner administration, and a cacerolazo violently faced each other during the demonstrations for and against the export tax policy of Cristina Kirchner's government.

2010s
On May 31, 2012, a nationwide cacerolazo took place with a massive following of approximately ten thousand people in the capital alone. The march was organised on the internet and was in protest of the Kirchnerite government, specifically against the introduction of controls on the foreign currency exchange market by Cristina Kirchner's government, rampant crime rates, a sense of disruption and infringement of civil rights due to increasingly interventionist policies by the AFIP tax agency, including a fiscal reform in Buenos Aires province that would more than triple the land property tax, income tax rates unadjusted according to real inflation, persevering high inflation, a devalued currency, the inability to save money and alleged corruption charges against government and policymakers. These protests were followed by further cacerolazos on May 31 and June 1.

On June 7, there was a cacerolazo with a concentration of around a thousand people in Plaza de Mayo and in Buenos Aires's avenues intersections of upper-class neighbourhoods. The following week, June 14, another gathering in Plaza de Mayo was attended by a just a few hundred.

On September 13, thousands of Argentines marched in the largest protests since 2008 against the government of President Cristina Fernandez, who, according to an opinion poll by Management & Fit, had lost popularity since her landslide re-election the previous year (this point was contested by the research company Equis, whose CEO Artemio López stated that the popularity indexes remained stable ). The event raised a noticeable polemic, as news coverage from most government-aligned newspapers and TV broadcasters was reduced to a minimum, and government officials' claim regarding that the cacerolazo only represented a small and minority portion of the population.

Another protest was made on November 8, commonly known as 8N amongst the country, principally in the Obelisco and the Plaza de Mayo, and around the world in the major cities of Spain, the US, Canada, Brazil, France, the UK and bordering countries. The latter was also called within Facebook and Twitter, though in contrast to the one on September 13, which had over 50,000 people, 250,000 were present at the 8N. The main complaints were, again the February rail accident victims, inflation and the rejection of the possible "re-re-election" of Kirchner, but also insecurity and the Ley de Medios. Again, Todo Noticias dedicated to transmit it completely, while other media supporting the president, such as América TV and C5N, in which a reporter was knocked down were also present. The president of the Asociación Mutual Israelita Argentina, Guillermo Borger, described the presence of swastikas during the protest march held by anti-government sectors in the Plaza de Mayo and other parts of the country as "reprehensible and abominable". "There is nothing that can justify the presence of these symbols", which recalled "the aberrant moment in the history of mankind," the official told the agency that plays Jewish News (AJN).

Brazil
Cacerolazos are known in Brazil as panelaços (from the Portuguese word for pot panela). Panelaços were first popularized in protests against then-President Dilma Rousseff in 2015, when Brazilians would bang pots from the windows and balconies of their apartments during Rousseff's televised speeches.

The popularity of panelaços resurfaced in 2020, amid the global pandemic of COVID-19, to protest President Jair Bolsonaro. Motives for the protests have included Bolsonaro's downplaying of the pandemic crisis and his dismissal of Justice minister Sergio Moro.

Canada
In 2012 in Québec citizens were using cacerolazo after the adoption on 18 May of Bill 78, an act which restricts rights to assemble after peaceful protests were met with police violence in Montreal and Victoriaville. Bill 78, aimed at restoring access to education for those students who disagreed with the general strike and at protecting businesses and citizens from any violence that might occur as a result of a protest, has been criticized by the United Nations, the Quebec Bar Association, Amnesty International, and others. Court challenges against the bill are underway.

A large number of "casseroles" or "pots and pans demonstrations" were held in towns and cities across the province, with the largest ones being primarily concentrated in Montreal's various neighbourhoods. More protests outside the Province of Quebec (over 66 other Canadian locations) were held in solidarity with the student protesters, including cities and towns such as Vancouver, Calgary, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Sudbury, Tatamagouche, and Halifax.

In 2004, a song named Libérez-nous des libéraux (Liberate Us From Liberals) was written, which prophesied "Need to rush into the street / like a spring flood / shattering our discontent / a debacle of pans / enough talking, make noise / a charivari to topple the party / as in Argentine, in Bolivia". On June 15, 2012, when the same band played a gig at Francofolies, they asked everybody to bring their pans and spoons.

Chile
Cacerolazos began in Chile in 1971 in protest of food shortages during the Salvador Allende administration, with the empty pots symbolising the difficulties of households in obtaining enough food to feed families. They were initially led and driven by women, representing household economic stresses as distinct from the industrial protests representing business-related financial stresses. By 1973 they had become commonplace as protests against the administration intensified amid increasing shortages. After Augusto Pinochet seized power in 1973 cacerolazos disappeared for a time until the economic crisis of 1982-83 set in. Thereafter cacerolazos continued up until the Pinochet regime lost a plebiscite in 1988 that put him out of office two years later.

Cacerolazos were organized in 2011 for two different reasons. On May 15 there was pot-banging in several cities in protest of the HidroAysén dam project. Then in August there were two cacerolazos across the country in support of student protests, the first on August 4 and a second one on August 8.

On November 18 there was another cacerolazo because of the murder of a Mapuche farmer, Camilo Catrillanca, at the hands of Chile's anti-terrorist police unit "Comando Jungla" (Jungle Command) in the community of Temucuicui, in Chile's Araucania Region on November 14. He was working with his tractor near his home when he was shot in the back of his head; 5 other people resulted injured.

After October 18, 2019, cacerolazos were organized during the protests originally motivated by the Santiago Subway company increase in the price of the metro ticket (see 2019 Chilean protests).

Ecuador
A cacerolazo in Quito, Ecuador occurred on October 12 during the 2019 Ecuadorian protests in spite of (or because of) a government-mandated curfew. Both sides claimed that the cacerolazo had been organized by them to support their cause. The following day, indigenous peoples met with the Moreno government for a dialogue and the protests were resolved.

France
Under the July monarchy, republican opponents to the new regime used this practice during their demonstrations. It reached in 1832 a national dimension, during which a hundred of these events were combined. In 1961, this phenomenon reappears as a form of popular protest by the pieds-noirs in favor of maintaining French Algeria, against the Gaullist policy of self-determination and independence of the country. During nightly concerts, often organized on the initiative of the Organisation armée secrète, the inhabitants, mounted on the terraces, or from their balconies, chanted on pans in telegraphic style three short and two long symbols of "Al-gé-rie fran-çaise" (French Algeria).

In 2016, among the strikes and demonstrations against the El Khomri law, "Casseroles debout" (in reference to the social movement Nuit debout), are organized in 350 cities "from 7:30 p.m." for "exchanges, debates, aperitif".

These casseroles gradually gained momentum in 2023 during the 2023 French pension reform unrest. On Monday, April 3, 2023, 2000 people participate in such demonstration in Nantes. A national call to participate in casseroles was triggered by some associations in response to Emmanuel Macron's televised address after the promulgation of the law. More than 370 casserole protests took place according to the association Attac France.

Iceland
The protests following the financial crisis that started in 2008 are sometimes called The Kitchenware Revolution, because people took to the streets banging on pots and pans and other household utensils.

India
On March 22, 2020, at 5 PM IST for 5 minutes, Indians across the country used sauce pans and other kitchen utensils to make noise to show their appreciation and support to all the service men and women on the front line for the fight against coronavirus.

More than a billion people in India voluntarily stayed indoors for 14 hours to try to combat the coronavirus pandemic. Prime Minister Narendra Modi told citizens that it would be a test in order to assess the country's ability to fight the virus and to come out on their balconies at 5 pm and make noise with bells or kitchen utilities as a show of support.

Lebanon
In 2019, nationwide protests erupted in Lebanon on October 17 following years of political corruption and economic instability. Protesters in Saida, Tripoli, and Beirut, as well as many other cities and regions in the country, took to banging on pots and kitchen utensils from their balconies. This technique was also integrated into street protests. Online calls were circulated to repeat this form of demonstration every day at 8:00 P.M.

Puerto Rico
During the summer of 2019, Puerto Rico endured a political and constitutional crisis caused by indictments on corruption charges of cabinet officials, and revelations of a Telegram chat group led by the sitting governor, Ricardo Rosselló. This chat group included government officials and lobbyists, and revealed that the governor and other participants made homophobic, misogynistic, and other prejudicial comments which also mocked the dead and other victims of Hurricane Maria, as well as threatened and defamed political opponents, the press, and others who they considered not to be allied with their government. The country erupted in protests, and for 15 straight days, all sectors of Puerto Rican society took to the streets in peaceful protests. Cacerolazos were a key expression of public rage and took place in front of the executive mansion, in public plazas across the islands, from the balconies of condominiums, the patios of homes, and other public settings. The governor eventually resigned as a result of these protests, which led to a constitutional crisis of succession. In less than a week Puerto Rico had three different occupants in the governor's office, and to date the crisis has not yet been fully resolved.

Mexico
In 2006, during the Oaxaca protests that saw thousands occupy their city following the police repression of teachers' strike, 5000 women marchers banged pots and pans with spoons and meat tenderizers. Their march took them through the city squares and to outside the state-run television station channel 9. The women demanded a one-hour slot to report on the people's story of what was happening in Oaxaca; a story that was censored and skewed by government propaganda against the protesters. When the station refused the women, still carrying their pots and pans, entered the building and took over the station. They carried out live broadcasts of the people's struggles.

Morocco
In 2017 and 2018, Hirak Rif or Rif Movement activists in the Rif region used cacerolazo to protest against Morocco's politics in the Rif region.

Myanmar
Following the coup d'état in 2021, most people living in Myanmar banged on pots and pans around 8 at night to express their opposition to the military takeover. It is believed to be a traditional method of warding off evil spirits.

Spain
Pandorga, mojingas, rondas de mozos, matracas or simply cencerradas were the terms to refer in Spain to mocking rituals in which folks took part in using kitchenware and/or similar utensils. It is however difficult to trace a historical continuity between cencerradas and modern day caceroladas.

A majority of Spaniards were against the Iraq War and provoked during 2003 cacerolazo-fashioned protests against the government decision to support it. People protested from their homes turning lights on and off, making noise with whistles and klaxons and hitting stew pots. In Huesca lamp posts of 16 streets were turned off in protest for 15 minutes.

During the Catalan general strike in October 2017, Catalans protested the response of King Felipe VI with cacerolazo.

A widespread cacerolada from the balconies of cities across Spain was organised on 18 March 2020 counterprogramming the TV discourse of Felipe VI on the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, intending to force king emeritus Juan Carlos to donate to public healthcare the €100M he had allegedly obtained through kickbacks from Saudi Arabia.

A number of caceroladas have been called throughout the country in the months of April and May 2020 to protest against the Government management of the Coronavirus crisis.

Turkey
During the 2013 protests in Turkey when late at night after May 31 people in central Istanbul were forced to go to their homes due to the high amounts of tear gas, they continued protesting from their homes by banging pots and pans. About half past one the entire city started to reverberate. This also functioned to create awareness of the situation since the self-censorship of media prevented people from being informed about the scale of the protests. After the first day, this form of protest continued, starting every evening at 9pm, and lasting a few minutes.

Venezuela
After the 2013 presidential election on 15 April millions of Capriles supporters banged their pots and pans in the streets and from their windows after Capriles refused to accept the results, asked for a recount, and told the whole country to protest during a power cut of three hours in some places nationwide. The next day, Capriles supporters continued the cacerolazo, asking for a recount. Similar concentrations were observed all over the world, particularly in South and Central Florida, where a lot of Venezuelan citizens reside, most of them Capriles sympathizers. It was none other than Capriles himself who called for a "cacerolazo" to denounce the election results, after the National Electoral Council declared Nicolás Maduro of the United Socialist Party of Venezuela the official winner in the snap presidential elections held the previous day.

Several cacerolazos took place during the 2014 Venezuelan protests. On August, the MUD reactivated protests by calling on supporters to hold a nationwide cacerolazo at 8:00 pm local time against the new proposed fingerprint rationing system. The cacerolazo took place in several states.

After marches on a national level to Caracas to demand a recall referendum on 2016, opposition leader Chúo Torrealba called for a cacerolazo. While Maduro was inaugurating houses of the Gran Misión Barrio Nuevo, Barrio Tricolor, people from Villa Rosa, Nueva Esparta state, received him with a cacerolazo. At least 30 persons were detained by the Bolivarian Intelligence Service (SEBIN) after the cacerolazo in Villa Rosa.

During the 2017 Venezuelan protests, many cacerolazos also took place. On 15 June cacerolazos were held in Caracas, where the banging pots were heard throughout the capital city. After the results of the 2018 presidential election were read, where Nicolás Maduro was declared re-elected, many Venezuelans throughout Caracas started a cacerolazo protest against Maduro, with some beginning to barricade streets.

During the Venezuelan presidential crisis, on 21 January 2019, a group of National Guardsmen rose up in Cotiza, in Caracas. Neighbors nearby started a cacerolazo and a demonstration in support of the officers. Government forces repressed the protestors with tear gas and the uprising was quelled quickly. People in Caracas also held cacerolazos during the 2019 blackouts to protest against the outages.

When Radio Caracas Televisión (Radio Caracas Television, RCTV) was forcefully shut down by the Venezuelan government in May 2007 after their broadcast licence was not renewed, and replaced with TVes, Cacerolazo protests formed around the country to protest against the closedown of the channel, which was the longest living public channel in Venezuela. Although the channel was dead on terrestrial, it started up again later in June 2007 as RCTV Internacional (RCTV International) as a pay TV channel, and lasted nearly 3 years until it was shut down again in late January 2010. RCTV had moved to cable in 2007 after the Venezuelan government of Hugo Chávez refused to renew its terrestrial license, which brought up the 2007 RCTV protests in Venezuela. In 2010, Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez had taken six cable television channels off the air, including RCTV International, for breaking a law on transmitting government material. The government had urged cable services to drop channels ignoring the rules.

title: Cacerolazo


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Talk:Cleveland Stadium

Rock concerts held at the Stadium
Hello,

Can anyone help me find a listing of concerts that were held at the Cleveland Stadium (World Series of Rock?) during the late 1970s and early 1980s?

I attended most in the late 70s and as far as I know there were not any in the early 80s. I have info on the concerts I had attended if you are interested. Also, please sign your posts MM DENE (talk) 08:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello,

The concerts were every summer from 1974 through 1979. I attended all the concerts in 77 & 78. I was an early teen then and kept a scrapbook with ticket stubs, newspaper articles, my personal notes, etc. My only regret is that I didn't take a camera with me. Too bad we didn't have cell phones back then. The The concerts were always general admission leaving the field open to concert goers. This resulted in the turf having to be repaired before the next Indians' game. These concerts were called "Games" to keep in the tradition of the sporting events held at the Cleveland Stadium. The bands below are listed in order of performance. I only have some show times (if it is still present on the ticket stub). (Tickets were torn in half at redemption and occasional removed some information)

1977 Game 1- June 5 Southside Johnny and the Asbury Jukes(Southside replaced Aerosmith who cancelled several days before), Nazereth, Ted Nugent, Todd Rundgren $9.00 Game 2- June 25 8:30pm - Pink Floyd (Attendence 81,000- A record)   $9.50 Game 3-August 6 12noon - Rick Derringer, J Geils, Bob Seger, Peter Frampton   $9.50

1978 Game 1- July 1- Kansas, Rolling Stones (New record-83,000)  $12.50 Game 2- July 15 4:00pm - Trickster, Journey, Foreignor, Electric Light Orchestra $13.00 Day of Show Game 3- August 26- Eddie Money, Todd Rundgren, Cars, Bob Welch, Fleetwood Mac $12.00

Below is a list of WSoR Concerts that I did not attend so my knowledge is limited, but I can direct you. I know that there are concert dates missing. I am not sure the order of performances, price etc...

1974 First WSoR -June 24 Joe Walsh, (unsure of other acts), September - Crosby, Stills Nash and Young (from The Plain Dealer August 29, 1995 article by Jane Scott)

1975 Unsure of date-Uriah Heep, Blue Oyster Cult, Mahogany Rush, The Faces (featured Rod Stewart and Ronnie Wood)

1979 Game 1- July 28 2:30pm- AC/DC, Aerosmith, Thin Lizzy, Ted Nugent, Journey, (Did not attend but have the promotional poster) (this concert allegedly beat the prior attendence record but cannot verify.) Sources: http://buzzardbook.wordpress.com/ (This is a site maintained by John Gorman who was WMMS program director back then, WMMS and Belkin Production were not only concert promoters but active participants on the day of the show.) Gorman would be a wealth of info on all Cleveland Conerts from that era.)

This a book that may have info, although I haven't read it. Wolff, Carlo, Cleveland Rock and Roll Memories: True and Tall Tales of the Glory Days, Told By Musicians, DJs, Promoters & Fans Who Made the Scene in the '60s, '70s, and '80s, Gray & Company, Publishers (2006), ISBN-13: 978-1-886228-99-3 I hope this is helpful. Peace.MM DENE (talk) 18:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The book "Cleveland Stadium: The Last Chapter" published in 1997 by Cleveland Landmarks Press, Inc., isbn=0936760109, has a chart of rock concerts at page 65 Artists - date-attendance The Beatles-8/14/66-24,646 Joe Walsh, Lynrd Skynard, Beach Boys -6/23/74-32,837 Emerson Lake & Palmer - 8/8/74-34,173 Crosby Stills Nash & Young -8/30/74-81,316 Chicago, The Beach Boys - 5/31/75-26,035 The Rolling Stones -6/14/75 - 78,665 Yes -7/11/75 - 29,394 Faces - 8/23/75 - 61,512 Aerosmith - 6/5/77 -33,049 Pink Floyd -6/25/77 -82,986 Peter Frampton - 8/6/77 -77,674 The Rolling Stones - 7/1/78 -82,238 ELO -7/15/78 -60,214 Fleetwood Mac - 8/26/78 -74,892 Aerosmith -7/28/79 -65,807 Bob Seger - 7/19/80 -47,183 Michael Stanley - 9/29/84 - (in Stadium parking lot, not stadium per se) estimated 70,000 Michael Jackson - 10/19/84 -34,210 Michael Jackson - 10/20/84 -47,186 Bruce Springsteen -8/7/85 -71,808 Pink Floyd -9/16/87 -60,172 Pink Floyd -9/17/87-62,001 U2 - 10/6/87 -50,456 The Who -7/19/89 -61,120 The Rolling Stones -9/27/89 -61,727 Paul McCartney - 7/20/90 -66,197 Genesis - 5/25/92 -49,877 Pink Floyd -5/26/94 -53,311 Pink Floyd -5/27/94 -46,963 The Eagles -7/8/94 - 45,432 The Rolling Stones -8/28/94 -35,265 Concert for the opening of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame & Museum - 9/2/95 - 60,000(estimate) Hanksummers (talk) 18:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)hanksummers

EDIT: The first World Series of Rock featured The Beach Boys with Lynyrd Skynyrd, REO Speedwagon & Joe Walsh - Cleveland Stadium (Cleveland, OH) - June 23, 1974 SOURCE: My ticket stub —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dirt America (talk • contribs) 16:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The Browns' move and name
I don't want to make a fuss about the move, especially on this page, since it's supposed to be about the stadium, and not about either team. I hope the current wording is satisfactory. The Baltimore Sun has a good recap of the agreement if you want to learn more. - EurekaLott 05:22, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks, we are quite aware of our history. I hope the current wording is a satisfactory compromise. --Noitall 05:38, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I'm afraid it doesn't work. The desires of the citizens of Baltimore were irrelevant to the decision, not to mention Municipal Stadium. It doesn't belong in this article. - EurekaLott 14:28, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

As I recall, although I offer no guarantee or warranty on this, the retention of the Browns' history by the new Cleveland franchise was basically a bone tossed to the city by the NFL, to smooth the waters and prevent a lawsuit. The citizens of Baltimore were getting a team, so what they may have wanted or not wanted would seem to be irrelevant, even if it worked out conveniently that way. However, this whole deal also reminds me of when the Senators moved to Minnesota, and the majors tried to pretend that the Twins were an expansion team and the new Senators were a continuation of the old. They were, in the sense that they were losers. And in a sense, that's what's happened to Cleveland also. They have their team, they have their pretense that it's the old Browns, and the team that used to be the real Browns has their Super Bowl ring, so everybody's happy. Or are they? Wahkeenah 02:39, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I can't answer for 40 years ago with the Senators, but the account is inaccurate with regard to the Ravens/Browns. --Noitall 03:07, September 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * You might well be right, and you're the Baltimorean, so you would be closer to the situation. Unfortunately, I couldn't check out the Sun article posted earlier, because they want me to register, and I don't feel like ending up on yet another mailing list. My argument, in general, as that the city of Cleveland got ripped off by a greedy owner, who moved to Baltimore which had previously been ripped off by another greedy owner. Here in Minneapolis, they lost a pretty good hockey team, the North Stars, some years ago... supposedly because the owner got annoyed that the local paper reported his being charged with sexual harassment.  So he punished the Twin Cities by moving the 'Stars to Dallas, and the NHL then expanded back into the Cities after convincing the city of St. Paul to fork over many millions for a new arena.  Don'cha just love owners? Wahkeenah 03:25, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, the owner was likely greedy. He is no longer the owner and, to be honest, while the owner he was not really in the spotlight.  The citizens of Balt. felt very guilty about stealing a team, but it was our only way after we had done everything right and Tagliabou opposed us at every turn.  So Balt. wanted the team without the guilt and that is what I think it got since the Browns got a team with same name and everything a short time later.  --Noitall 03:30, September 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, what you've just said partially supports what I said earlier... except that it seems like it was Baltimore that tossed the bone to Cleveland, more than the NFL. In fact, I do recall now that the NFL was not very happy about it, and technically couldn't do much if anything to stop the Browns from moving, as Al Davis had proven in court that the league had no power to stop a team from moving elsewhere (or back again, in his case). FYI, I find this little edit war kind of amusing, and I'm learning a few new facts, and also wondering what the fuss is about. It could probably be settled if you had a reference to cite, so you could say, "According to such-and-such, the citizens of Baltimore gave up the nickname and history, etc." Wahkeenah 03:48, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * There should not be an edit war since the issue in dispute is not about accuracy, but about Wiki style, and, at least before, did not want anything about Balt. on the page.--Noitall 03:52, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * It's both. As far as I can tell, your persistent insertions of Baltimore-related issues are incorrect and also don't belong here. Can you cite any reference that backs up your story? - EurekaLott 03:58, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The history is extraordinarlily well known to anyone not pushing a POV. I can probably find sources from Gov. Glendening, the Greater Baltimore Committee, etc., but it is not necessary.  I note that there is not one source cited on this article.  You cite every source for every statement made, no matter how well known, and I'll do the research.  --Noitall 04:14, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * If you had bothered to read the linked article above (use Bugmenot if you don't want to register), you'd find references to Cleveland politicians, NFL officials, team ownership, and the Maryland Stadium Authority. The charitable opinions of Baltimore's citizenry nowhere entered the equation. Furthermore, this is supposed to be an article about a stadium, not about a team. If you want to write about the move, do it in an appropriate location in the Ravens or Browns articles. Hell, start a new one if you want, but there's no good reason why it belongs on this page. - EurekaLott 04:37, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No, this is not your article. --Noitall 04:44, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * I never claimed it was. If you insist on making baseless assertions in inapplicable articles, expect to find them reverted. - EurekaLott 04:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * If your great wish is to be the grand poo bah editor of this page because you want to eliminate accurate and well-known info and want to acknowledge your ignorance, go ahead. --Noitall 04:52, September 13, 2005 (UTC)

Hey noitall (if you're still around), the concept that Art Modell left because he couldn't maintain his revenue from loges is giving him quite a break. The fact of the matter is that Art had spent money on players and donations to local hospitals to the point where he was on the verge of bankruptcy anyway. What is missing here is that Art was offered the opportunity to get in on the Gateway project early on, but passed. No one really understands why Art did what he did - he and his son lied their way through the entire episode. You should delete the comment that Art somehow was jilted out of revenue. He allowed it to happen the way it did. Whatever happened behind the scenes or in Art's evil mind is still a secret - and likely always will be. --Formershamu 02:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Not built to attract the Olympics?
I was surprised to learn from the Wikipedia article that the stadium was not built as a bid to attract the Olympics that eventually went to Los Angeles, as this particular factoid is, at the very least, and as the article notes, local lore. I would like to see some citation for this. To me, it doesn't seem realistic that the city of Cleveland would fund the expenditure of the largest ballpark in the country(?) (and the first stadium to be built with public money), and without having signed the Indians to play in it, for high school and college games(!) without some of the debate looking forward to the possibility of a Cleveland Olympics. Hopefully someone will be able to clarify and provide some references. Robert K S 19:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The sentence in the entry, "That misconception may have contributed to some in the media calling the stadium, "The Mistake by the Lake"." is unsourced and ought to be deleted IMHO. Hanksummers (talk) 21:26, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Mistake on the Lake?
Why do you persist on Calling Cleveland Browns Stadium Mistake on the Lake? It's Degrading and Humiliating. I think because of this Term that is used so often by people outside of the Cleveland Area, (usually people who have never stepped foot in Cleveland or even Northeast, Ohio) that it gives Cleveland a bad Name. Cleveland is beyond that, and the Browns, up until 1995 have almost always had good seasons, Just Because they have never won a Super Bowl, no one one pays attention to all the great players and Teams the Browns have had over the Years. There are only 3 other teams, that have more Hall of Famers than the Browns. I think that you need to take down the "Mistake by the Lake" phrase. Also, I think that you need to check more of your Sources, becuase there are A lot of Inaccuracies and opinions (used as facts) on this page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nprimiano (talk • contribs) 02:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC).
 * It is a legit nickname for the stadium. Added citation.  Few more below:
 * http://www.sports-venue.info/MLB/CLE_Municipal_Stadium.html
 * http://projectballpark.org/history/al/cleveland.html
 * http://www.andrewclem.com/Baseball/ClevelandStadium.html
 * Cheers. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:31, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

 * So much for "". I see little difference between this and a similar, recent discussion at Talk:Cleveland.  More than anything, this just feels like another backdoor attempt on the part of this editor to force his/her view without allowing for or acknowledging consensus.  As for your sources, Evergreen, the one truly reliable reference from CBS Sports uses the qualifier "dubious" immediately preceding the term.  And really,  will do you no good here.   Levdr1 lp  /  talk  04:57, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I remind you to assume good faith. This edit was spurred by this edit.  I was surprised to see that the MbtL nickname was removed from the article earlier this year as unsourced.  During my research for the Talk:Cleveland discussion, I did notice this was a nickname for the stadium (as I mentioned on that talk page).  So I fixed it.  Also, what threat?  I "threatened" to make a paragraph.  I have provided citation.  If you feel the sources are not the best, please feel free to add better ones. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:06, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

 * For note, I did what we discussed on the Talk:Cleveland page. Can you please explain your objections to the nickname section? EvergreenFir (talk) 05:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

 * I always try to assume good faith, but your recent attempts to "fix" things, both here and on the Cleveland page, don't exactly instill confidence (WP:AGF only extends so far). I do apologize if I read something  that wasn't there -- edit summaries aren't the appropriate place to pose questions on content, if only b/c they require an edit for reply.  And to be fair, we did just go through a lengthy discussion on more or less the same issue at the Cleveland talk page.  Perhaps next time you'll consider discussing the matter first before launching into a perceived workaround.  As for what to actually do with this article, I suggest you consider WP:DUEWEIGHT.  How critical is the term MotL to the reader's understanding of this subject?  Frankly, it feels more like you are trying to force this term in however you can, wherever you can, rather than approach the overall topic in a balanced way.  That said, "Mistake" should probably be somewhere in the body of this article -- I'm just not convinced it deserves its own section.   Levdr1 lp  /  talk  05:46, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand why you would have thought what you did, but honestly it was because of that edit. The paragraph I added did feel clumsy, but I wasn't sure how else to add them.  As a Clevelander, I was always confused by the multitude of nicknames (and the multiple uses of MotL).  I feel it should be in there somewhere... also a reason why it's called Lakeshore Stadium (that one confused me). EvergreenFir (talk) 06:01, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

It was never called Lakeshore Stadium. Municipal or Muny, The Stadium, Cleveland Stadium and sometimes Lakefront Stadium but never Lakeshore. As far as Mistake on the Lake, it deserves to be mentioned in the prose somewhere, but again, a whole paragraph is unnecessary. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 06:28, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * My mistake. Lakeshore/Lakefront typo. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:02, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Page Title
Are you sure this page should be called Cleveland Stadium? I've lived in Cleveland my whole life, and I have never once heard or seen it called anything other than Cleveland Municipal Stadium or just Municipal Stadium. Cleveland Rock 16:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I was born in 1980 and never heard the "Municipal" modifier until I found sources dating back to before I was born. I think by the 1980s the "Municipal" had become superfluous and had fallen out of favor when referring to the Stadium, which we just called "the Stadium" or "Cleveland Stadium". Robert K S 16:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've seen it both ways going clear back to when it was built, pretty much. Wahkeenah 16:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I was born in 1969 and have lived in Cleveland my entire life. I heard it called Cleveland Municipal Stadium by many, including broadcasts by Nev Chandler and by the infamous dark lord Art Modell. --Formershamu 02:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Clevelander born 1978 here, it was always Municipal Stadium or Cleveland Municipal Stadium, I don't recall it hearing it as "Cleveland Stadium" at all. Pimlottc (talk) 10:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The big scoreboard in center field used to say CLEVELAND STADIUM across the top. I don't know what the exterior sign might have said, or maybe it changed over time. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Spent my first 22 years as a native (beginning in 1972) and it was called both. Usually just 'The Stadium', or Cleveland Stadium, but it was also referred to by it's official name as well. Most often you'd here the 'Municipal' part mentioned in reference to the (old and massive) 'Muny Lot', which was just east of the Stadium and was where you'd tailgate before the game... and be stuck in ridiculous traffic afterward. The Fourth of July game in '84 comes to mind as far as traffic goes... Ryecatcher773 (talk) 16:45, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Did they write it as "the stadium" or "The Stadium"? That's significant, because there's a debate going on at Talk:Yankee Stadium as to whether "The Stadium" is a notable nickname for the new one. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think I ever saw it written as either "the stadium" or "The Stadium," I think it was much more spoken than anything by fans and media. Any time you have "stadium" as part of a name, it's going to get called "the stadium" which is true of Cleveland Browns Stadium today.  As for the discussion over "Municipal" I heard it used frequently ("Cleveland Municipal Stadium" and "Municipal Stadium"), but also heard "Cleveland Stadium" just as frequently if not more so.  It was common enough that the "Major League" movies also use "Cleveland Stadium" in both movies on signs and in dialogue.  I would guess "Cleveland Municipal Stadium" was perhaps the "official" name, but I have no way to verify that.  The best place to find out would be any Browns or Indians media guides from that time. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's a photo that shows the scoreboard with "Cleveland Stadium" displayed on it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 22:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Look, if there is any doubt (and this mainly applies to anyone not actually from Cleveland -- who wouldn't know the first thing about it anyway, or are too young to remember the old building) all you have to do to confirm the official name as Cleveland Municipal Stadium, is to go to Amazon, and enter it as a search... and see how many hits come back that include the official name of the stadium in the title. One thing I've learned about Wikipedia over the years -- people (mainly outsiders) will doubt anything and everything, even with legitimate sources. Primary sources on any subject (i.e. people who were acquainted with someone/something firsthand) is completely irrelevant to anyone who wants to argue. I'd been to the place over a hundred times, and have stacks of old Browns and Tribe ticket stubs with the official name (that includes Municipal) on it, and I know for a fact what the name was besides... but it doesn't matter because some 17 year old kid in Idaho says he can't confirm it. Go to Amazon, look it up. Case closed. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 13:56, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Except that the big scoreboard within the stadium itself didn't have "municipal" in it. So did they just not feel like putting 3 words on the scoreboard instead of 2? Or did the name of the stadium actually change at some point? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:39, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Sporting News guides first mention it in 1939, as Municipal Stadium, and they are consistent with that from then on. However, the official major league guides published by A.S. Barnes in 1945 and 1946 say Cleveland Stadium. The 1956 Pocket Baseball Almanac says Cleveland Stadium. The Turkin and Thompson Encyclopedias of Baseball in the 1950s say Cleveland Stadium. In The Scrapbook History of Baseball, a clipping (newspaper not stated) reporting the July 31, 1932, Indians debut calls it the "New Muny Stadium" in the headline and "the Municipal Stadium" in the text. A lesser-known series of guides from the 30s and 40s, Who's Who in the Major Leagues, calls it Municipal Stadium. Lamont Buchanan in 1951's The World Series and Highlights of Baseball calls it Cleveland Stadium. Hope that helps. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 03:12, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

As it's been said elsewhere in the discussion, it was called both almost interchangeably as an official name, depending on (most likely I'd surmise) who was publishing respective media guides and/or newspapers. The official listing in the 1992 Cleveland White Pages lists it as Cleveland Municipal Stadium, and although it generally was referred to as Cleveland Stadium (it's easier to say and takes up less space in print, yadda, yadda, yadda), the full official name was Cleveland Municipal Stadium. An officially published NFL Encyclopedia dated from 1979 actually shows captions under each stadium (in the section on stadiums) and Cleveland's includes the title 'Municipal' (funny sidenote: I actually remember asking my dad as a kid what that word meant when I saw it as an 8 year old kid...)As for he scoreboard, I'd (again) surmise that it was a matter of space. You're talking about a town originally that dropped the 'a' in Cleaveland because it fit better in a (now defunct) city newspaper (there is actually mention of that fact in the History of Cleveland, Ohio article... and surprisingly, when I went to check I saw that it's lacking a citation, but I know it was in our 8th grade Ohio History textbook... I got that right as an ectra credit question in 1985 ;-) .... Anyhow, the full official name of the building was Cleveland Municipal Stadium. The intro (and the title) should be reversed to Cleveland Municipal Stadium (also known as Cleveland Stadium, or Lakefront Stadium). Ryecatcher773 (talk) 04:55, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Note the subtlety of the sources I cited: either Cleveland Stadium, or Municipal Stadium. None of them used all 3 words together. Possibly, again, due to space issues, or "wordiness". During the 50s and 60s, then, there were two different "Municipal Stadium" listings in the MLB guides: Cleveland and Kansas City. However, if you're physically in one of those cities, you wouldn't say all three words, since the city name would be understood. The Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome, which is its official name, is typically called the Metrodome, or just The Dome. There are plenty of other "Domes" around, but there's only one in Minneapolis, so the prefix is not needed. Kind of the same deal with Cleveland. It would be so much easier if they had actually posted a sign on the exterior, but apparently they didn't. In contrast, K.C.'s exterior had a sign that read "Municipal Stadium", so there was no doubt there. FYI, the mid-1970s book called The Ballparks, the first of its kind actually, calls it Cleveland Stadium. Lost Ballparks calls it Municipal Stadium. The first edition of TSN's Take Me Out to the Ballparks leads off its article by calling it CMS and then MS the rest of the way, while also reproducing a photo of the scoreboard with CS on it. If you're anywhere near Cleveland, it might be instructive to go to the library and see what the locals were calling it in 1931-32. That would be the trump card. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 05:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Infobox
From the Elkman generator: §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  00:51, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Dubious: WPA
The article says "Another common misconception is that Cleveland Municipal Stadium was a Works Progress Administration project", which I've tagged as dubious. The tag was removed, with a supporting reference that the WPA was created in 1935, well after the stadium was built.

Just to clarify: the date of the WPA's creation is not the dubious bit. I don't think that date is controversial or any way in doubt. What is dubious is the claim that it is a "common misconception" that the stadium was a WPA project. I've reinserted the tag, directly after the "common misconception" statement.

The only thing I can find remotely supporting this is a passing mention in a book about baseball brawls.

This book doesn't claim that the stadium was built under the auspices of the WPA; it reads more like the author's impression of that era of building. Even if it did, the book is about baseball brawls, it's not a reliable source on beliefs about the stadium's building process.

The passage sounds like something someone heard from their uncle or something, not something that can actually be verified by reliable published sources. Is there anything to support the statement that this is a "common misconception"? TJRC (talk) 21:38, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

 * Taking a closer look at User:Piriczki's edit, it's apparent that the source cited is about the Indians and their stadium, not just the WPA. I've removed my tag.  Thanks, Piriczki. TJRC (talk) 21:50, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

 * Here's a gem from one of Cleveland sportswriter Terry Pluto's books: "The Stadium was a Works Progress Administration project designed to bring the 1932 Olympics to Cleveland." Piriczki (talk) 02:09, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

 * Thanks, and good work documenting it in the article. I'm surprised Pluto vectored that; I remember him as better than the typical Cleveland sportswriters (Heaton, whose first name escapes me, excepted), despite writing for, as I recall, the Akron Beacon-Journal. TJRC (talk) 21:31, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

National Register of Historic Places
Cleveland Stadium was most likely delisted from the National Register of Historic Places at some point after it was demolished. The NRHP template has a paramter "delisted" but it requires a date. Can anyone confirm the date it was delisted? Piriczki (talk) 13:57, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I assumed it was delisted since it was demolished, but haven't been able to find a date yet to verify (otherwise I would've included it). It may be a case where it just hasn't been updated yet. I'm not opposed to having 1996 as the date, but everything I can find indicates it's still officially listed. In cases where something has been delisted, it is usually not available in search results anymore. I know locally we have a site still listed that was torn down in the 1980s; no one's gotten around to requesting it be removed. Another site, however, was delisted and isn't available in search results. --JonRidinger (talk) 14:35, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

 * The National Register of Historic Places research page says:
 * We have not yet digitized the following states: Arkansas, Illinois, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, North Carolina, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Texas, and Virginia.

 * If the file has not been digitized yet you can request a copy from us. Please include the name of the property, the state, and the reference number (or as much information as you know on the property). And e-mail the request to us at: Reference [mailto:nr_reference@nps.gov e-mail]

 * The Listed properties on the National Register spreadsheet still lists the stadium, as reference no. 87002287 (Cleveland Municipal Stadium), with a listed date of 1987-11-13. TJRC (talk) 00:10, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

What Name to Use for the Baseball Team
Should "Indians", referring to the Major League Baseball team, be changed to "Guardians"? If so, should it be changed everywhere, or only in selected places? The team name was Indians for the entire time it played at this stadium, and it's unclear to me what would be clear and correct. --cratermoon (talk) 23:45, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Cleveland Stadium


text:
Kirche am Steinhof

Kirche am Steinhof, also called the Church of St. Leopold, is the Roman Catholic oratory of the Otto-Wagner-Spital in the area of Steinhof in Vienna, Austria. The building, designed by Otto Wagner, is considered one of the most important Art Nouveau churches in the world.

Description
The church, situated 310 m above sea level, dominates and forms part of the Steinhof Psychiatric Hospital; previous official title was Niederösterreichische Landes-Heil- und Pflegeanstalt für Nerven- und Geisteskranke 'Am Steinhof'  (Lower Austrian State Healing and Care Institution for the Neurologically and Mentally Sick, 'Am Steinhof'). It is located on a hillside (the Baumgartnerhöhe) below the Galitzinberg in the 14th Vienna district, Penzing. It has a separate status as part of the surrounding hospital and does not form part of the Archdiocese of Vienna.

Architecture
The church dedicated to Saint Leopold was built between 1903 and 1907 by the 63-year-old architect Otto Wagner, with mosaics and stained glass by Koloman Moser, and sculptural angels by Othmar Schimkowitz (1864–1947). The great majority of the other smaller details are the work of Otto Wagner himself. The statues on the two external towers represent Saint Leopold and Saint Severin (l. & r. respectively: they are the two patron saints of Lower Austria) and are the work of the Viennese sculptor Richard Luksch (1872–1936).

Unusually the church lies on a north–south axis, at the centre-top of the hospital complex. Otto Wagner incorporated numerous features specifically related to its function within an asylum: e.g. there are very few sharp edges, and most corners are rounded; almost no crosses are visible; the priest's area is potentially entirely separate from the patients'; access to the pulpit is only from the vestry; emergency exits are built into the side walls in case a patient needed to be speedily removed; continuously flowing water replaced holy water stoups at the entrance; there were separate entrances for male and female patients, since gender segregation was mandatory in mental institutions at the time; confessionals were more open than is customary. There were toilet facilities easily accessible within the church in case of patient need. Originally the pews were of different widths to accommodate different categories of patient: calm / restless / disturbed (the latter needing more space). The floor is raked as in a theatre, though not as steeply; the fall from entrance to altar is approx. 26 cm: standing at the back the view to the altar is thus less obstructed. The central ceiling below the unseen dome bears images relating to the four evangelists: the man for Matthew, the lion for Mark, the calf for Luke, the eagle for John. The magnificent windows at the sides of the Kirche am Steinhof portray seven saints (named underneath each frame) fulfilling Christ's commands both temporal (feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.) and spiritual; with above them a pair of flying angels and a quotation from the Beatitudes. The elaborate and brightly coloured mosaic behind the ornate altar represents the reception of the departed soul into heaven, via an ornate trompe-l'œil staircase which has been compared unfairly to a Hollywood-style movie award ceremony. Among the numerous saints attending the ceremony is Saint Dymphna the patron saint of those afflicted by epilepsy or mental illness. Also visible is St. Clement Hofbauer or Clemens Maria Hofbauer (1751–1820), the patron saint of Vienna. The dome of the church is not visible from inside the building; even so, the nave has an echo of six seconds. The church seats 800 people when full.

Due to lack of funds, several of Otto Wagner's original designs were never realized, including the Procession of the Cross, a private chapel beneath the church for Protestant services, and a Jewish synagogue.

The organ placed in the rear gallery is the work of the important turn-of-the-century organ builder Franz Josef Swoboda, among whose other instruments nearby are the organ at the Peterskirche in the centre of Vienna, and the organ of the Donaufeld church in the suburb of Floridsdorf on the other side of the Danube.

History
The Church of St. Leopold, better known as the Kirche am Steinhof, was built during the construction of the Steinhof Psychiatric Hospital (now the de:Otto-Wagner-Spital), from 1904 to 1907. When drafting his plans for the building, the commissioned architect, Otto Wagner, respected the church's role as the institutional chapel for mentally ill patients and consulted with doctors and nurses concerning the specific requirements of such a building. On October 8, 1907, the church was opened by Archduke Franz Ferdinand. The Archduke and Wagner were at odds on a variety of issues, not least on the overall design of the church. The former had disapproved of Wagner's art nouveau style from the very beginning; so much so, in fact, that he refused to acknowledge Wagner during the opening ceremony or to commission any other work from the architect. But opinions regarding Wagner's unusual design were varied. In an article published in the New Free Press on October 6, 1907, the author rhetorically asked: "And is it not a beautiful irony of fate, that the first sensible secessionist building in Vienna has been built for the insane?"

The most recent, and most extensive, restoration project began in June 2000. All told, 22 construction companies and 15 consultants worked on the restoration. Their first undertaking was to completely re-gild the exterior dome using 2 kg of .01mm-thin sheets of gold leaf. The base of the dome was renewed with copper sheets that, prior to their placement, were artificially patinated. Between 2002 and 2004, the entirety of the church's 1,800m² façade was replaced with 3000 plates of Carrara marble, each tile having been examined by ultrasound to ensure quality. The angelic and holy figures were removed and transported to a workshop where they were restored. Construction began on the interior of the church in 2005. Among other projects, each of the mosaic windowpanes were glazed and remounted in a specially designed support structure. The windows, which have been valued at 5 million Euro, are now better protected from the elements and vandalism. The mosaics within the church, main altar, pulpit, chandeliers, sconces, and wall decorations were restored and newly gilded. Trained wood restorers polished and improved the pews and confessionals. The plasterboard ceiling was also rebuilt. About half of the original 2,200 plaster tiles were salvageable, the rest were replaced.

While the interior renovations were ongoing, the foundation of the church, the drainage system, and the exterior base were completely renewed. After the renovations were complete, a wheelchair-accessible entrance was added on the north side of the church.

After the 6-year long renovation project, the church was finally reopened on October 1, 2006.

Prior to its reopening, Steinhof church was selected as a main motif of one of the most famous euro collectors coins: the Austrian 100 euro Steinhof Church commemorative coin, minted on November 9, 2005. The obverse gives an angled perspective view of the left-side and main door of the building.

title: Kirche am Steinhof


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DataSolution Computer Services, Lapu-lapu City, Cebu

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE. -Splash 21:49, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

DataSolution Computer Services, Lapu-lapu City, Cebu
Wikipedia is not a means for advertising. Articles about companies should describe companies that are well known, and are notable. This company is definitely not notable. This also looks like some about page. If it is confirmed that this should be deleted, may I please request an admin to delete, thanks.

 * Delete, for the said reasons. --Noypi380 12:56, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * This nom was previously malformed and never added to a main VfD page. Adding now.  No vote.  JYolkowski // talk 18:18, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete. NN company - article did not establish what is notable about this newly formed company (ie: any notable product???).  --Hurricane111 04:40, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Talk:Keith Green

The Crash
I removed the language that suggested there was something wrong with the way Last Days Ministries mentions the airplane crash. LDM doesn't have some sort of obligation to say, "By the way, the crash was all Keith's fault because he insisted everyone cram into the plane." The article states that the plane belonged to LDM, that Keith organised the flight, and that it crashed because it was overweight. 'Nuff said, really. Holford 22:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I further removed the same stuff, after others removed all sorts of other POV piled on this the last couple of days. If someone is of the opinion that the statement of the facts of the crash are insufficient, then this would be the appropriate forum for discussing that. Holford 07:16, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I added the NTSB Report of Crash link. Therein should be enough NPOV material. To be fair, the pilot's utter lack of professionalism is what led up to this crash, coupled with the lack if even a pretense of pre-flight planning.Lowellt 04:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. Holford 20:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Read the NTSB report again. Two facts were wrong in the crash section: the weight and the number of seats. I changed to reflect.Mdoc7 04:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, found the original source for the initial submission: http://www.search.com/reference/Keith_Green (some of which facts are wrong and corrected here) Mdoc7 20:54, 31 July 2000 (UTC)

...and here: http://keith-green.biography.ms/ Appears a lot of the text is a direct copy from either or both. Mdoc7 21:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Misc
The songs previously referred to as praise choruses do not fit the definitions of that genre in any way. They are hymns and are included in some recent hymnals.

I also changed back the term "Evangelicalism" to "Christianity". Keith may have been an Evangelical, but his devotion was not to Evangelicalism. I removed the use of quotation marks inserted to lower the credibility of statements. These are some a series of edits here an elsewhere by the anonymous 82.143.162.72 who seems to go around various Christianity-related articles with bags full of quotation marks, liberally scattering them around. Holford 20:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I put the quotes back in around "small, colorful magazine" and clarified the language. The purpose of the quotes in this case was not to lower the credibility of this statement, but to quote the magazine's description of itself.  This was my edit - I started the paragraph about the magazine as I felt it deserved a mention.  I don't know anything about any of the other quotes in the paragraph, but they do seem to add a negative POV as they are apparently taken out of context. H2O 20:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

There is a testimony of a former CIA assassin who broke down in guilt and admitted that her and other CIA killed Keith by rigging his plane. Read it here: http://www.geocities.com/ron_garon/062901.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.153.134.89 (talk)

Although I think if he was murdered it was by the Vatican in Rome for Keith's anticatholic stance. Which could line up with this Ex CIA, Ex High priestess in a satanic cult being that Jesuits are into satanism also and could be doing it within Satanic, CIA, covert operations as a smokescreen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.153.134.89 (talk)

 * Totally bunk, of the same type as the Chick/Alberto fiasco. Nonsense. We don't need it. Mdoc7 01:15, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Lol. Why is it totally bunk? Ignorance protrudes evidently. Research the facts they bring to light.

 * That was bizarre to read. What would either the Vatican or the CIA gain by pulling that one?

Keith Green had a lot of influence and during the time of ecumenical manipulations through the chrazismatic movement such as kathryn kuhlman etc, they could not let him sway the populace of believers under his influence. Thus before it was published he needed to be silenced WAVY 10 14:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Why was this assassination claim never reported to the law? Considering the common belief is that the plane had several more passengers than it could, and crashed from being overloaded, the assassin should have done the just thing, and confessed her guilt not to the author of some website, but to the police.  Failing that, the website owner should have given this information to the law. At the least, Melody Green deserves to be told the truth.  Otherwise, the whole story sounds bogus, as if it is a wholesale story, part of some website's Satanist conspiracy scare. 98.240.250.74 (talk) 02:14, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Quotes
Any chance we could remove the quote about going to college? Either that or expand it? I'm pretty sure I have the talk where the quote came from on CD and I think such a small excerpt from a longer speech doesn't really do his talk justice. The quote just sounds silly and/or makes Keith sound kind of crazy and the whole talk (if i remember correctly) was more about people who go to college without a direction or reason for going along with people who simply just say they're working/studying for the glory of God when really they aren't.

Of course I could be way off, if someone has some audio or an article where he stated that quote without all i've just said, I would love to hear it.

Tiburon 18:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it came from one of the Last Days tracts. I think that is the source mentioned. I agree that it is out of context. Holford 20:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Out of context of what? The world? If it seems out of context, it is because of preconceived ideas. Take the out quote, or leave it in. The pro of taking it out is that it's not for the heathen, it's for the Christians. The con: the Christians won't see it, either. I would take it out, but all it is is a quote, so there need be no expounding, hence leave it in. Your choice. The quote comes from here: http://www.lastdaysministries.org/nations/whyyoushouldgo.html Mdoc7 04:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * We don't put things in Wikipedia because they are for heathens or Christians, or because their inclusion or exclusion is reflective of any POV. I should have encyclopedic value, providing a better understanding of the subject from a NPOV. --Holford 04:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
I did another major clean up. Still needs more work. Holford 10:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Early Life
In the article for Keith Green it states that:

Green went on to play "Kurt Von Trapp" in a major production of The Sound of Music

but it does not specify when, where or what format (stage, movie, ...) Does anyone know the specifics regarding this reference?

If someone has the 'No Comprimise' book, it goes into details there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.131.125.49 (talk)

 * I obligingly added as suggested. I have the No Compromise book.  The addition goes with the flow of the paragraph.  Mdoc7 03:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The way the first para was originally written gave the misleading implication that the quotations given were from a Los Angeles Times newspaper article. No such quotes were found in the newspaper archives (they have a very good search engine); but they are found in the No Compromise book. Only the phrase "Eight-year-old" is indeed found in a Los Angeles Times article that contains Keith Green's picture, but that article is an anouncement of an upcoming event of a live theater performance, not a review of a past event (as indicated in the No Compromise book, where most phrases are found). The fact that the phrases were not found in the archive search, but were found in the book, suggests that the quotes were from a LOCAL review that is not a part of the newspaper (such as The Parade Magazine insert of the Sunday Washington Post, which is not a physical part of the newspaper). This view makes sense in light of the fact that Chatsworth, where the performance was carried out and covered, is within the provincial boundary limits of Los Angeles. Edited accordingly. Mdoc7 22:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Images
I have just sent the email confirmation to permissions at wikimedia dot org for a bunch of images to be put in here. Mdoc7 01:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Keith's Repentance
There doesn't seem to be anything here about the dark side of Keith's Christian life, his role as a "prophet," and his eventual repentance and denial he was ever called to be one. There is no mention, it seems, of the change to the tone of his music from "No Compromise" to "Songs for the Shepherd." Can someone do a brief, respectful, cited biographical account of this very imortant transformation in his life? The absence of it makes it look like his biography has been deceitfully sterilized to idolize him, and I am certain from having followed Keith's teaching and life that he would be grieviously sickened to be seen in such an artificially glorified way.72.84.68.191 23:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

 * In No Compromise, Melody frames the change leading up to the more worshipful and merciful "Songs for the Shepherd" as one of growth born of Keith's own struggles with his sinful nature. While Keith did repent over some poor attitudes (namely, pride) concerning his prophet motivation, he never rejected that his voice was called to be prophetic. CyberAnth 01:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I remember quite clearly reading in one of Keith's newsletters, the one with the "prophet" on the cover looking off disconcertedly to the side with the church in the background, that someone had suggested to him that he was a prophet. He said the person was well meaning, but he also said that person was wrong about that. It wasn't just "an attitude." He genuinely thought he was a Jeremiah/Ezekial class prophet--a prophet of destruction with nothing good to say. There is definitely a difference between the before and after "prophet" if indeed he still thought he was one. The majority of Keith's life was spent seduced by a critical spirit that fortunately culminated in the release of forgiveness and a rightened heart, yet this article brushes it under the rug like it never happened. I think that is deceitfully misleading and subtracts from the reality of who this man was and what he did. One can say horrible things about a man without citing it and it's asked to be removed immediately from Wiki. Once can also create a lie through omission, but is that any less non-NPOV?72.64.52.235 01:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I strongly disagree with the view (and the hyper-Charismatic worldview) that would say Keith was "seduced by a critical spirit". I also think you have some of your facts confused. You can read the statement you are referring to, Not For Prophets Only, which is here. It is one of the tracts Melody has removed from the Last Days Ministries site to avoid people making the sorts of interpretations of the matter you seem to be. Melody in No Compromise places the tract into a time period where Keith was being broken by reason of his seeing his own sinful nature in a greater light. The time saw Keith produce songs like "Grace, By Which I Am Saved". Keith never rejected, but accepted his prophetic motivation, but struggled with the label and with pride he began to exhibit over the matter. In one of his journal entries in No Compromise, he is shown even complaining to God that He had not called him to simply preach "easy" and "loving" things.  "Why have You called me to always confront?" Winkie Pratney in his forward to No Compromise recognized that Keith's prophetic side was a major, if not the major aspect of his life, and after very specifically framing Keith's life as prophetic, says that a second Reformation was cut short by Keith's death. When Melody later published A Cry in the Wilderness, she picked up the theme of Keith as one in a prophetic role. I am not at all against including this era in this bio article, but will insist we leave off our own interpretations of the matter and rely on Melody's and Winkie's. They lived through all of this in very close intimacy with Keith and are simply exceedingly more qualified than us to interpret the matter. Overall, this article could be a very full length article, if someone has the mind to make it so. CyberAnth 03:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

 * The name of the song is 'Grace By Which I Stand'. Sorry to be picky.71.31.170.161 (talk) 20:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You are reading an entire world view I don't share into a few words. Seduce means to be enticed by, and "critical spirit" is what Keith had. He was seduced by his own pride and became unmercifully critical--simply put.

 * I'm really not surprised they removed that tract. They've been cleaning house and reforming Keith's image since he's been gone for some time now. I don't see any of the "Reformation spirit" tracts against the Roman Church there either. God forbid anyone should ever know Keith held such views. They just wouldn't understand.

 * If Keith had set up a plan to reform his "prophetic" purpose, history would have it to look like it was more his idea than God's. It baffles me why anyone would want to reform his image though in such a way as to bury the old and pretend it's not there. Let's also pretend what happened to 6 million Jews and 2-3 million slavs, gypsies, political prisoners and other unfortunates, hey? My great grandfather dug his own grave and the Germans helped him fall into it. I don't mind--not. Was Keith that bad? No. Is calling for a make up crew on Keith biography bad? You bet it is. Keith, I'm sure, would agree. Imagine how Jesus feels about how people revised who he was to make convenient their purposes--holy war for example. I guess someone shelved "my kingdom is not of this world, if it were I would have my servants fight for me." People would just get confused over that one. Oh, that's right, they didn't let the masses have the whole Bible, period. "They wouldn't understand.... \:D

 * As for not knowing "intimate details" of his life, a hate preacher called Keith before his death and told him that God was going to hold him accountable for compromising his words of "no compromise." As far as he was concerned, Keith had gone apostate and proved himself by slacking on truth. "Intimate details" is a wonderful expression that buys a whole lot of nebulousness. I don't need to know how many moles he has on his back to see that he wasn't the same prophet he used to be. Sometimes, people need to be evaluated in a different venue because the people that are close to them are a just a little too emotionally biased and partial. I'm not living off of his image either. I don't need to "fix" it.72.64.52.235 14:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

 * KEITH "It's not that I no longer believe that I'm called to do that, it's just that now I see that every believer is called to do that - to call all Christians everywhere to obey God and win the world for Christ! The main thing that God has shown me through all this is: I'm not called to be a prophet, I'm called to be a CHRISTIAN - a servant of the living God! That is the HIGHEST calling that anyone can realize."

 * Clearly here, Keith believes he isn't differentiated in any way from how any other Christian should be. Since not all Christians are called to be prophets or any other single office in Christ's body according to Paul in I Corintians, he is not magnifying an office of prophet as his. He is merely relinqishing himself to being a Christian who is motivated to be all that means in encouraging others to follow Christ. According to this article then, Keith is coming across as denying an office of prophet. As for what others saw in him, they are reading more into him than this tract allows. If anything, they were just helping him spiritualize the pride that was driving him to believe he was one, like he says they were.72.64.52.235 14:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I am one of the originating editor of this article and made it what it is now, supplying most of the references and footnotes (but I'm not the originating creator of the article). It was inaccurate in many places.  I also acquired all the images (except Green's photo) and published them here.
 * Now, my response to the originating entry above is not to add the section so named (above) to the article. This article has been checked for accuracy by two people who knew Green and who were involved in the Last Days Ministeries (such people are still called "LDMers"), and any corrections mentioned were implemented into the article.
 * The article is not intended to give a life story with all of his life's intricacies, but just highlighted aspects. And I am not concerned with what the article "looks like" because statements with that phrase are always framed by opinions influenced by preferences and perceptions. It was intended to offer a positive outlook in his biography, not idolize him. There is already short mention of his drug use and involvement in other religions. Mdoc7 18:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

 * God forbid we should include his religious sins.72.64.36.93 03:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

 * No, Wikipedia forbid we should include his religious sins. By doing so, we are necessarily inserting POV.

 * I disagree. Keith Green underwent a radical transformation to his ministrial approach in 1981. It would be a disservice to Keith Green's memory to leave anyone with the impression that he did not realize his error, having come to terms with his lack of grace, and changed.

 * After reading through this whole thread, I am amazed that so many contributors think this article is by Christians for Christians, and even then by Christians within a certain range in the theological spectrum, justified perhaps through an affinity (or antagonism) with Keith's own theology. This is an encyclopedia. There are already bits in the Ministry section of the article that are POV blended with Christian shop talk.

 * Talking about Christians without words Christians commonly use from the English language is like a mathematician not being able to use words like "Calculus," "vectors," "derivatives" and soforth in Wikipedia, simply because they are not words familiar to the general public. To deny certain elements of vocabulary because someone is not familiar with "Christian shop talk" as you put it, is unreasonable. The ministry section contains a positive note to Keith Green's ministry, not an "antagonistic" one. Keith repented. Christians consider that a good thing, not an embarrassing thing.72.64.35.218 10:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I have only left them alone because I don't have time for an edit war. Holford 23:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * First of all, 72.64.35.218, why don't you get a user name and spend some time learning etiquette.

 * Temper, temper. You don't make the rules, and critisizing the behavior you have mostly imagined of me isn't exactly etiquette either, is it?

 * My comment wasn't meant to be a broken up set of quotes for you to use.

 * Sorry you have to feel that way. If you are speaking to me, then I will make it easier on you by inserting my answers where you will see the immediate relevance.

 * Second, we are not here to service Keith's memory. This is an encyclopedic biography, not modern hagiography.

 * Biographies by due course do serve a person's memory, if they don't that's a new one on me, so forgive me for having stated the obvious. The point is to cover all aspects good or bad in their revelant histories to properly reveal the nature of the person. The article only covered the negative aspects of his secular life. His Christian life was way too perfect, and that is probably because of the idolotry going on her by Christian editors that Keith wouldn't have approved of.

 * If the change in Keith's approach in 1981 is worth noting, then it is inappropriate speculate upon his repentence, not to mention the peculiar repeated usage of the word "himself". In addition, it is speculative to refer to one thing demonstrated in his concerts with a clear transition seen in a studio album.

 * That's repentance is not speculative at all. Keith openly repented of his behavior in his public newsletter, The Last Days Newsletter. I read it myself the day it came out. I was a subscriber. I citation might be in order though. Keith's music tended to be very prophetic and judgmental before this public declaration. The music that followed was consistent with that change of focus. That's all that was being said. Nothing was being proven, just pointed out.

 * Your math analogy breaks down quickly. If it were an article about theology, then shop talk would be appropriate. Further, the shop talk isn't even universally used by all Christians.

 * Words such as "repentance, displeasure, wrath, and condemnation" are all universal words used by Christians to discuss the mechanics of God's Word AND they also apply when discussing the dynamics of a Christian's life. The point of analogies is not to be exacting on every detail either, as you presumed. Parables are usually only intended to make one point. As a Christian, you should be aware of that, so please exercise some courtesy and try not to "strain at gnat and swallow a camel."

 * It doesn't matter whether this positive or antagonistic, or whether, as Christians, we think it good or embarrassing. Holford 21:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

 * The point was that you mentioned something in the article was antagonistic, about the time you were refering to the ministry section, and I refuted that. It all makes sense when you slow down, read and do not judge by appearances. If a Christian thinks it antagonistic, let him think again. That is all that I said. Breathe, my friend, breathe...then make specific constructive recommendations for the article, not your annoyances over me.71.251.186.96 02:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Clearly you feel no obligation to respect my wishes that you not break up my comments. I'm breathing just fine, even if very reasonably annoyed with you at the same time.

 * Being annoyed to yourself is one thing, lashing out with unreasonable rationalizations based on careless comprehension or willful distortions of my comments and adding dictates for my behavior are another, and it has no place here.

 * I did make constructive recommendations for the article, which I have been editing for two and a half years.

 * I was saying to focus on doing that rather than your annoyances with me, not that you weren't.

 * I am not denying that Keith repented - I was a subscriber to the Last Days Newsletter at the time as well. I am only concerned about the decision making process for determining which things are encyclopedic and how those things are presented in the Wikipedia context.

 * Then perhaps you can wikify the form in which the ideas of the second half of the Ministry section are delivered. Put the content in encyclopedic form. If you know Keith as well as I do, you should know he was not being slandered by it.

 * And clearly I missed that you were offering the Parable of the Mathematician, rather than offering a direct comparison between two types of Wikipedia articles. Holford 23:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I really can't safely say I entirely understand the intent of your last remark, but on the surface it doesn't appear friendly to me.72.64.53.154 02:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Then you shouldn't say anything. ;)  Mdoc7 03:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, this has been kind of an interesting exchange since my last post in May 2007. I'm in general agreement with Holford in that Wikipedia is not a Christian's encyclopedia, or even that this article is a Christian's article. In fact, Wikipedia is a secular media. Inasmuch as you don't put a new patch on old wineskin, you don't Christianize an article in a secular encyclopedia.

I'd left the scene because I'd realized then and knew that changes/additions will be made and the consensus is already divided, even amongst Christians.

Plain and simple: Green was a sinner like everyone else and was no better than his own father, yet his demeanor as a Christian was made perfect because of Jesus Christ (his role as prophet aside). That's why my editing was not predicated on the approval of Green, but neither is it predicated on yours simply because you'd like it to be "approved" by Green. There was nothing perfect about Green's life in this article, but Jesus Christ made him perfect (not his life) and the LDMers understood and knew that. But you can't say that in this article. It's considered "POV".

"Biographies by due course do serve a person's memory...": my response: That's an autobiography, not a biography. Mdoc7 03:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC) - I disagree with Mdoc. The facts about Keith's repentance are not POV. Keith would only want the truth about him to be known so God would be glorified. All LDM people know this, and so should those who don't. Leaving out the "dirt" makes Keith look perfect to those who DID NOT know him and it ends up idolizing Keith as some sort of legend. Him not wanting to have it this way is not a detriment to the truth or facts, but supports them both. Anyone who can't handle that, needs to consider why it is they want Keith's memory to be swept clean of any imperfections. 71.251.182.189 (talk) 04:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC) - Well, I disagree. There is already mention of his repentance that you spoke of, and that's not all. No "dirt" was left out from the original form. The article was reviewed by 2 senior LDMers and some corrections were made. The only thing swept clean were factual errors and inaccuracies. And here's another thing: this article does not glorify God (John 15:5 hints why), nor will it, even if this article were modified according to your opinion of how you think Keith wants it done. If you say Keith "wants the truth to be known so God would be glorified," why would you yet insist that God must be glorified in the manner YOU feel KEITH would have it? Or, put another way, why should Keith's preferential idiosyncrasies about himself determine how God gets the glory, or how Keith is perceived? So your silly idolizing argument falls flat (actually, it points in your direction). Mdoc7 (talk) 04:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC) -- There are two significant life changing repentances in Keith's life. The first is the one you mentioned, Mdoc, the one where he he became a born again Christian, changing his skepticism of theology. This led to his religious conversion. The second is the one in argument, the repentance of his ministrial approach which was harsh and full of condemnation. This led to the radical changes in the tone of his ministry and music, very significant changes worthy of being mentioned in his biography. Simply put, the latter is not revealed by the first, and therefore the latter is not redundant of the first.72.84.78.116 (talk) 21:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC) -- It is to the latter that I was referring, not the former, which is already in the article. There was never any discussion about redundancy, and I understand which repentance is being referred to. Repentance is and should be one of the hallmarks in the life of a true Christian--not just one or two, but many. But it is not a major topic in this article because the article is not about his repentance. It is only one aspect of his entire life. Now, that's twice I've had to clarify that it's already in the article. Mdoc7 (talk) 04:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Re-ranking
This article article needs to be in Category:High-importance Contemporary Christian music articles . CyberAnth 06:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I concur. WAVY 10 14:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Concur. Mdoc7 03:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Album Artwork
Hi,

I've upgraded the majority of the album artwork as the existing files were pretty poor.

Kind regards, Adw uk 19:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Upcoming Album Release Dates (as of March 2008)
"The Live Experience," "The Live Experience Special Edition," and "Greatest Hits" have had their release dates pushed back several times. According to several sites (EMICMG/Chordant,CMC Distribution, Christian Book Distributors) and from direct information I received from Betty Daffin at Last Days Ministries, the release date is currently set for 4/29/2008. Cjsummers (talk) 03:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Updates to album dates
Since the "Live Experience," "Live Experience Special Edition," and "Greatest Hits" albums are out now, I updated those lines to reflect the actual release date instead of saying "scheduled release date." Also, based on the Last Days Ministries website (http://www.lastdaysministries.org/Group/Group.aspx?id=1000008701), I updated several albums with more specific release dates, if more specific dates were available. Cjsummers (talk) 17:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Last Days Ministries website update
Last Days Ministries recently updated their website, so the links from this Wikipedia article to the website were all broken. I think they're all fixed now, if I caught them all. Cjsummers (talk) 17:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

New Album Releases
I added the new EP's that were released this year, "The Early Word" and "Happy Birthday to You Jesus". I also separated secular and Christian posthumous releases to distinguish between them. I added a brief description of the "Happy Birthday" EP in the Legacy section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keithgreenfan (talk • contribs) 02:59, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Movie
Recently added a new section titled "Movie", noting Melody's announcement of a movie about Keith's life on the Last Days Ministries website. Updated this section today (5/18) with additional information from a Daily News interview, in which it is revealed that Michael Leahy is working with Melody on the project, and that the film is slated for release in 2011.Keithgreenfan (talk) 00:13, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

 * Thanks, and thanks to all others who've made similar entries in my absence. Mdoc7 (talk) 23:31, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Legacy
I became aware of a tribute show that is performing the music of Keith Green in Australia. As this is of interest to Keith Green fans, I added it to the Legacy section. It has been removed due to the concern that the band name 'No Compromise' infringes copyright. However, there are plenty of tribute bands around the world that use words associated with the original artist, but not the actual name, in their tribute band name. http://www.artslaw.com.au/articles/entry/we-are-just-a-tribute-band/ I believe this edit should be restored. Crumpola (talk) 21:49, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Apparently they are using the name of the song and the singer's name in violation of a request to stop. I have seen no proof of that. If it is currently being litigated, we should not throw fuel on the fire.
 * With that said, I know of no band that has more tribute bands than The Beatles and it mentions none of them and Elvis Presley has many tribute acts and no mention of it at that article. I see no reason why this article should be any different. We can check at the appropriate project to see if excluding tributes is normal or not. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:41, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Suggestion for missing citation
Forgive me if I'm breaking protocol by not formatting this properly -- this is my first time in years to contribute and I don't want to mess anything up, but my attention span is limited -- but I wanted to offer a possible citation for the reference in "Spiritual experience" to Keith having been "raised in Christian Science." He referenced this in an appearance on "100 Huntley Street" in 1982, which can be found here: Hope a more experienced Wikipedian finds that useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Woodnwheel (talk • contribs) 14:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The reference would be helpful if it had been provided by the copyright holder. Unfortunately, we can't use it as a result. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:17, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Missing from Keith Green's discography
Missing from Keith Green's discography are most of the songs he created as a boy and teen. By 11, according to the TV show What's My Secret?,* he had ALREADY composed over 40 songs! What are these? Where are these? How many were recorded? How many were released? Which were released by Decca?

Also, Melody Green was a songwriter, before and with her husband, and perhaps after? If there is no article for her, then, here, what were her songs before she met Keith? What about any other songs by her? Which did she do music on, and which the lyrics? A lot is missing here.

A lot could certainly be added. Fans? Misty MH (talk) 00:16, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

 * Hi @Misty MH, I agree that a complete list of songs that were published prior to Keith's conversion would be great. Of course there are a few mentioned here. I should note that even though Keith wrote that many songs, I believe only a few were actually recorded. Keithgreenfan (talk) 14:19, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

 * Source Reference: This video reference to Keith saying that, on that show: "11 year old Gospel great Keith Green" at 4:55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ6Vi2PUx08&t=295s

title: Talk:Keith Green


text:
User:Hallgrímur

Hallgrímur
My name is Hallgrímur and I am from Reykjavík, Iceland. I can be contacted at gaddur@simnet.is I love the wiki-oid concept, and hope to see it grow astronomically.

title: User:Hallgrímur


text:
Arnold Hills

Arnold Frank Hills (12 March 1857 – 7 March 1927) was an English businessman, sportsman, philanthropist, and promoter of vegetarianism.

Biography
Hills was born in Denmark Hill, Surrey, the son of a manufacturing chemist.

Arnold Hills was also a keen sportsman who was the English mile (1878) and three-mile champion (1879), and in his youth had played football and cricket (he was Captain of the 1st XI) for his school team Harrow. After leaving Harrow he attended University College, Oxford, where he earned the degree of B.A. (1880) and two football blues. He appeared as a forward for Oxford University as they finished runners-up in the 1877 FA Cup Final against Wanderers.

He continued to play as an amateur for Old Harrovians after he left, even winning a Corinthian's Cap whilst there; for England, against Scotland on 5 April 1879 at the Kennington Oval, when England won 5–4.

In addition to his vegetarianism activism, Hills was Managing Director of the Thames Iron Works, a large shipbuilding business in London which had existed since 1846. He chose to live for five years among his workers in a small house in the East India Dock Road in Canning Town and organised recreational centres for them.

However, he caused some bitterness when there was a strike over poor pay and working conditions by employing 'black' labour. Considering his philanthropy, it must have been a situation that troubled him greatly.

In the summer of 1895 Hills, along with Dave Taylor, helped found Thames Ironworks F.C., who later became West Ham United. He believed that his own local community should have its own football team and financially supported the football club until April 1900, when after increasing disagreements with West Ham's board members over the pursuit of 'professionalism', he broke formal ties with the club and the Thames Ironworks.

Hills proposed a West Ham as a limited company and became the major shareholder, and encouraged business associates, family and his workmen to invest, promising to buy one share for every one sold to the public. He rented the Memorial Grounds to the club at very favourable terms. Hills told the new directors he would not interfere in the running of the club and was true to his word and despite being by far the largest single shareholder never attended an AGM, ask to address a meeting or present any demands or suggestions.

The failing fortunes of the ironworks and his involvement in developing a new car engine pushed the club into the background and he became a virtual invalid suffering from arthritis. He died at Hammerfield, Penshurst, Kent, in 1927 aged 69, and was buried at St Luke's Church in Penshurst. His shareholding in West Ham of 1100 out of 4000 (1142 shares remained unsold until 1961) passed to his family and the same arrangements remained.

In 2014 as part of their preparation for their move to the Olympic Stadium, West Ham announced one of the corporate entertainment areas would be a private dining club, the Arnold Hills suite.

Vegetarianism
Hills was the first President of the London Vegetarian Society (1888) serving alongside the young Mahatma Gandhi on the Executive Committee. He was also the first President of the Vegetarian Cycling and Athletic Club and also served as President of a London Vegetarian Rambling Club. He founded The Vegetarian, an independent magazine, as well as the Vegetarian Federal Union (1889), of which he was also President. Hills also had close ties with the Temperance League. He founded the Oriolet Fruitarian Hospital at Loughton, under the medical direction of Josiah Oldfield.

Hills authored Vital Food (1892) which argued for a plant-based raw food diet.

Charles W. Forward's 1898 book on vegetarian history, Fifty Years of Food Reform was dedicated to Hills.

Publications

 * Vital Food (1892)
 * Vegetarian Essays (1897)
 * Essays on Vegetarianism (1910)

title: Arnold Hills