text:
Talk:C.D. Guadalajara

The Teams Crest Could be more explained
I have some good valuable information onto the brothers main prospective upon reaching a conclusion. To why they chose to create a new crest (logo)for the Club Deportivo Chivas. I was wandering if anyone had any good resources or references to my topic of choice? --Beckmcq (talk) 23:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

S.A. de C.V.
What does it formally mean? I know that a Sociedad Autonoma is a corporation in all Spanish Languahe natiobns. !!!!Chivista 21:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

S.A. de C.V. means Sociedad Anonima de Capital Variable. It's the fiscal status of the club. Neutron65 18:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Unlike the Premier League, champions are determined in playoffs like ice hockey's NHL
Stanley Cup champions are the season's champ in hockey. Likewise in Futbol Liga Mexicana. Just because Premier League doesn't hjave a playoff is no reason to exclude the playoff system from picking a season's champion. Chivista 03:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Limited Advertising On Jerseys
The article states they have limited advertising. I see prominently displayed advertisements for two different companies on both the front and the back of the jersey. Maybe they mean LTD advertising? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.62.96 (talk) 06:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Before Vergara arrival to the club, the uniform have arount 13 companies labeled in every side of the uniform (front side, back side, arms, the bottom side of the shirt at the back, and even shorts and socks). When Vergara arrived, the jersey has no publicity on the shirt for some seasons until they allowed Bimbo to put its label on the jersey, currently they only show three companies (Toyota, Bimbo and clothes sponsor Adidas). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Travsam (talk • contribs) 20:32, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

More references needed
The article lacks references. --Nandonaranja (talk) 19:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC) The section on The Dark Era needs to be cleaned up. It references 1987 (outside the time period for The Dark Era) and also seems to contradict the statement in the 2nd paragraph regarding relegation. --Spjstein (talk) 00:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Carlos Vela
Vela is listed as a "Notable Player," even though he never played for the full team. He was owned by them, but purchased by Arsenal before he logged a minute. I think this should be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.228.73 (talk) 01:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Chivas has had more cups
perhaps u would like to search more, they have won over 2 tournaments of four teams and six teams involving real madrid and barcelona

notable players
hey come on! stop putting so much players in this section for example: esparza,mendoza,ochoa, among other players are not notable at all(CHIVAS ISNT THE MOST POPULAR TRAM ANYMORE) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.182.4.46 (talk) 16:25, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Who is Gabriel Zapiain
Why is this man listed as a notable player, when it is almost impossible to find a profile on this guy on the internet? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.44.167 (talk) 06:31, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

 * I try to find out about Zapiain, but like you I couldn't anything about him, but I did find out that on April 27, 2008, user 69.229.239.244 added him (Gabriel Zapiain) along with Jamaicon Villegas(José Villegas Tavares), Hugo Diaz, Jose Concepcion Rodriguez, Guillermo Mendizabal, Jose Martinez, Guillermo Torres and Jaime Lopez, after that he has never made an edit or became a registered user, out of those players José Villegas Tavares, José Concepción Rodríguez, Guillermo Mendizabal, José Martínez González, and Jaime López (futbolista) seem to have played for Chivas, so that makes me think than the other 3 players he added including Gabriel Zapiain, also played for Chivas, but I just don't know how notable Zapiain was.--Bocafan76 (talk) 08:50, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

popularity
chivas is still the most popular team in mexico: http://blogs.mediotiempo.com/?p=2798 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.164.144.74 (talk) 23:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

New Team Crest
Chivas have recently got a new crest and I uploaded it to the main page but it might be taken down for a dumb reason so I dont expect it to be on there for long. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FGaribay (talk • contribs) 05:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

 * It has been changed back to the original crest. http://www.mediotiempo.com/futbol/mexico/noticias/2010/03/11/el-rebano-regresa-al-viejo-escudo (Spanish) Gizzy80 (talk) 22:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Only fields mexican born players?
shouldn't this be reworded to say they policy is to only play mexican born players, but non-mexican born players have played for chivas (padilla?) and i think there are a few more examples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.133.194.205 (talk) 21:13, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Change the logo back
The logo of Chivas de Guadalajara has been changed back to the old one and we fans would appreciate if the image of the logo would go back to the original one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eskuid (talk • contribs) 22:03, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

CD Guadalajara
CD Guadalajara should redirect here as the Mexican club is much popular. 210.6.121.21 (talk) 08:51, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Chivas Guadalajara
I thought the club were most commonly referred to as just "Chivas", if so shouldn't that noted somewhere? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.105.185.73 (talk) 22:42, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Requested move
I propose to move C.D. Guadalajara to Club Deportivo Guadalajara. The abbreviated "C.D." just looks awkward and I don't believe this "Club Deportivo" to "C.D." is common outside Wikipedia. Several other major club articles regarding Latin American teams have avoided abbreviations in favor of a club's proper and recognizable name. --MicroX (talk) 08:07, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks like you might have a point based on the way a number of other clubs in Mexico are described, CD doesn't see to be the usual way of doing things. Not sure though whether there is therefore a special reason for it, so you will probably want to raise a formal RM rather than just moving it yourself. Fenix down (talk) 10:14, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. --  tariq abjotu  14:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

C.D. Guadalajara → Club Deportivo Guadalajara – I propose to move C.D. Guadalajara to Club Deportivo Guadalajara. The abbreviated "C.D." just looks awkward and I don't believe this "Club Deportivo" to "C.D." is common outside Wikipedia. Several other major club articles regarding Latin American teams have avoided abbreviations in favor of a club's proper and recognizable name. Also, I was looking at the backlogs of this page and its redirects. Initially the page was Chivas de Guadalajara and subsequently moved to Club Deportivo Guadalajara per official name of the club on 24 May 2008. A few months later on 21 December 2008, it was moved to C.D. Guadalajara. A minor move war seems to have ensued and the justification for C.D. Guadalajara was "correct name given the article titles of club's with similar names" by User:Grant.Alpaugh. --Relisted. --  tariq abjotu  02:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC) MicroX (talk) 19:41, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support, seems logical enough. Sources would be great. Red Slash 23:18, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. ★☆ DUCK IS JAMMMY ☆★ 01:09, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

 * Oppose The English-language sources at the article (FIFA/RSSSF) show Chivas Guadalajara/CD Guadalajara. Picking up on Red Slash's point, sources are critical, and not an optional extra. Eldumpo (talk) 21:59, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The official website uses Chivas here and there or just Guadalajara (but this is the city name as well so we need an appropriate encyclopedic disambiguation). When addressing the club entirely, they use the full name Club Deportivo Guadalajara. --MicroX (talk) 01:08, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not just about what the official name is, and indeed the priority is for what the English-language sources are saying. However, is there an English version of their site? Eldumpo (talk) 07:29, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok. FIFA lists Chivas Guadalajara and RSSSF lists simply Guadalajara. Fox Sports also does not use C.D. and instead uses just Guadalajara. I view the abbreviation of C.D. as a copy of the F.C. practice with clubs from the United Kingdom but do not believe this copy-edit practice is good for Latin American clubs. --MicroX (talk) 00:47, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Given what you say in the above post, which includes another source not using the requested move title, will you be withdrawing your move request? Eldumpo (talk) 21:24, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * No, unless a better alternative is suggested. As Guadalajara is already in use, Club Deportivo Guadalajara seems like a better disambiguated page than C.D. Guadalajara. Unless the FIFA-sourced Chivas Guadalajara is adopted. --MicroX (talk) 23:58, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose Football teams all around the world have a few letters in their name, and we consistently use them in articles, be they FK, FC, AFC, or CD. A Chivas name might be better, however, per WP:COMMONNAME. --BDD (talk) 23:08, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Some clubs don't (e.g. Sporting Clube de Portugal). --MicroX (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Move to Chivas de Guadalajara - per WP:COMMONNAME. – Michael (talk) 18:23, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * If it will be per WP:COMMONNAME, then it should be Chivas Guadalajara as seen in FIFA sources but I am still in favor of Club Deportivo Guadalajara. --MicroX (talk) 18:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - Chivas Guadalajara seems to be most popular and C.D. Guadalajara is virtually non-existent. --MicroX (talk) 18:32, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose For foreign clubs, it seems already to be something of a convention to use the abbreviated form to designate 'football club' or 'sports club' (without the full stops) and "F.C." for British clubs, and unless you want to try moving them all, I'd seriously recommend leaving this where it is. --  Ohc  ¡digame!¿que pasa? 07:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Each club is different and going by WP:COMMONNAME, Chivas Guadalajara would be the more common name in English instead of C.D. Guadalajara. Over the past few years, I have seen the Football WikiProject struggle to reach consensus over FC and F.C. Not all foreign clubs abbreviate either such as Deportivo de La Coruña instead of RCD La Coruña or Atlético Madrid instead of CA Madrid. --MicroX (talk) 00:49, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisting I originally closed this under the following reason:
 * "The result of the move request was: move to Chivas Guadalajara. It seems demonstrated that this is the common name of the team, at least more so than either of the previous names proposed, and there appears to be a mild preference for it."
 * However, I see the name appears nowhere in the lead and, upon further inspection, see it's mostly been MicroX noting the common name. So I'm relisting. --  tariq abjotu  02:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It does appear in the lead. At least as of today, in the first sentence "commonly known as the Chivas del Guadalajara". --MicroX (talk) 20:58, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it says Chivas del Guadalajara, not Chivas Guadalajara. --  tariq abjotu  21:19, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It's the same thing as Atlético Madrid. Read its lead and you'll see Atlético de Madrid. --MicroX (talk) 04:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Looking at a GoogleBooks search, a search for "C.D. Guadalajara" and "Mexico" brings up 446 results. On the other hand, a search for "Chivas Guadalajara" and "Mexico" brings up only 57 results. Also, why should a football club article be titled after the team's nickname? Best regards.-- MarshalN20 | T al k 14:14, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Chivas reserve teams
I think there should be a link that leads you to the reserve team(s) of Chivas. WikiAdrian1017 (talk) 00:58, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:C.D. Guadalajara


text: User talk:81.152.3.84

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:81.152.3.84


text:
Talk:Military history of New Zealand during World War II

Untitled
Do we really need to attention tag? The article could certainly use some expansion, but it's fairly sound at the moment. The tag doesn't really seem to add anything. Lisiate 22:40, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not only an army
Um, speaking as a soldier, I can't help but notice, excepting some random additions at the end, the other two services are pretty much absent. Possibly either the title could be revised to army, or additions made regarding the contributuion of NZ airmen and sailors? Winstonwolfe 04:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the article could be divided into three large sections, covering Army, Air Force and Navy? Thoughts? Winstonwolfe 03:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Admiral Graf Spee Scuttled.jpg
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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

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Albert Draper

Albert Earl Draper (December 13, 1895 – November 3, 1963) was a politician in Manitoba, Canada. He served in the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as a Progressive Conservative from 1955 to 1958.

The son of William Draper and Jane Stanley, Draper was born in St. Mary's, Ontario, and became a farmer in Elgin, Manitoba. He served from 1915 to 1918 in France during World War I, and achieved the rank of Sgt. Major. His older son, Clarence Oscar Draper, was killed in action during World War II.

Draper was elected to the Manitoba legislature in a by-election held on June 27, 1955, defeating Liberal-Progressive candidate Robert E. Moffat by almost 700 votes in the constituency of Deloraine-Glenwood. He did not seek re-election in the 1958 provincial election, in which the Progressive Conservatives won a minority government.

He died in Winnipeg at the age of 67.

title: Albert Draper


text: Category:Ancient Roman theatre

title: Category:Ancient Roman theatre


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Video Gamers First

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was - deleted - SimonP 15:22, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Video Gamers First
No notability established, appears to be an advert veiled as an article. Nothing links here. --EvilZak 22:41, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete drini ☎ 22:42, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Zeipher17 Talk 22:52, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Could you give the VfD crowd the reason why Wikipedia should keep this article because you're the creator? Why is this site "notable?" According to the website, it is like one of the many video game fan websites out there on the web that doesn't have the internet traffic compare to Gamespot, GameFAQs or IGN. --Chill Pill Bill 01:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete for the lack of notability. Give a big round of applause to Zeipher17 for voting Keep on his article without anything to back up and Myusername1 for vandalizing this VFD. Nestea 01:17, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Again. Nestea 01:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * And again. Nestea 02:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * And again. Somebody ban this guy, please. Nestea 02:15, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, no notability K1Bond007 05:13, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, website with an alexa >200, 000, not unique in anyway and a cynical person might think this was added to increase revenue from crappy popups --nixie 02:19, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete NeoJustin 02:52 June 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * As the owner of VGF, I will remain neutral (I'm assuming this is allowed). I was considering voting delete to blend in, but I'll resist that temptation for the time being. I'm not voting keep because keep votes apparently aren't particularly welcome in this discussion (looks like at least one was deleted and one was blasted for being the same as two delete votes, which nobody mentioned), and I don't particularly care whether this article remains or not anyway. If I did care, I'd PM our 50 most active forum members and have them descend on this topic. It's pretty apparent where this vote is headed, since most of the people who have voted thus far appear to be either new to the Internet or just don't know that much about video game sites. That said, I have a few comments about the site (I'll try to be brief... apologies if this is too long).

VGF has a fairly long (8 year) history. It started out as a single site that was updated on an excessively frequent basis, at least twice daily every single day (all original content). The community, which remains a strong focus to this day, was a large part of that. In a short time, it was built up to a very respectable stature in the video game site genre. As it became more popular, it evolved into a network. This was very successful, and VGF soon became one of the top video game networks in the world, reaching 25 million monthly page views at its height and owning several of well known sites. This allowed it to partner with all the major ad networks while I personally became among the most prominent voices in the online advertising community as one of the most respected members of Geekvillage and Gethighforums, as well as a writer for Adbility. Granted, this was only 1/4th of IGN's numbers at the time (though certainly respectable by any standards and on par with others like GX - Gamers.com, FGN, and Gamefan), but we didn't have $1 billion (with a b) to flush down to the toilet either. To the contrary, I was dirt poor when I started the site.

Unfortunately, a couple years ago as the bubble was fully bursting, without the financial backing the major corporations had (and even they all either collapsed or had to be bought out to survive), it became necessary to make cutbacks, including deliberately killing off traffic. As a result, I'll acknowledge that VGF is not nearly as large as it once was or could have been. Still, it's unfair to claim it's unknown. Also, since we update on a regular basis and have an active community, I fail to see how it's just an advertisemnt. And it's just silly to claim that nothing links to VGF, even though the number of links is perhaps not particularly large. Regardless, what I would like to stress is this... If you want to visit the site, you're welcome to. If you don't want to visit it, who cares? But at least try doing more than 30 seconds of research based on clicking one link, visiting Alexa (inaccurate spyware that at one time ranked itself #3), or getting one unobtrusive popup here or there (oh no, it's the end of the world!) before bashing it. Ssacobie 20:28 June 3, 2005 (UTC)
 * I find it funny that your first line reads "As the owner of VGF, I will remain neutral", yet your article (which is much bigger than the VFD'd article) is completely in the direction of keeping the article. It's good that you didn't have your forumgoers descend on this topic, because then it wouldn't make a difference. (sockpuppetry) As for the keep votes, one was made with no reason to back it up, and the other was deleted because along the way, the voter vandalised other votes (read the history of this VFD, please). I doubt those three paragraphs save the article from below the notability bar, but it was a good try. Nestea 01:34, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd just like to say that a part of this site's network already has an article on Wikipedia. Neglected Mario Characters is part of a hosted site on this network. As for the advertisment claim, I don't work for the network and wouldn't benefit from it in any way. Zeipher17 20:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
The Rowan Tree Church

The Rowan Tree Church is a Wiccan organization, legally incorporated in 1979. It is an Earth-focused network of Members dedicated to the study and practice of the Wiccan Tradition known as Lothloriën. Originally centered in Minneapolis beginning in the late 1970s, its main office is in Kirkland, Washington. The Rowan Tree Church maintains its network through newsletters, the internet and with an annual retreat (meeting every third year at Old Faithful and, at other times, at The Hermit's Grove in Kirkland, a 1.3 acre property ). The Rowan Tree Church has an in-depth training program which leads to ordination. It has been publishing The Unicorn newsletter since 1977. Littlest Unicorn is published eight times a year for children and their parents. The church began around the work and teaching of Rev. Paul Beyerl in the mid-1970s.

title: The Rowan Tree Church


text:
Talk:Kaifeng Jews

Irrelevant links
Two users have recently been adding links to the "see also" section, which seem completely irrelevant to this article. The latest in this series is Jews and Judaism in Japan, added by User:Ghostexorcist. Please explain what possible relevance 19th-century-and-later Jewish communities in Japan could have to an article about a pre-18th-century Jewish community in China. Zsero 19:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Because they are all Asian Jews. --Ghostexorcist 10:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

 * So should we have "see also" to all Jewish articles on WP, because they are all about Jews, somewhere in the world? What's significant about the fact that both communities, from utterly different origins and at different periods, happened to be situated in "Asia", which is after all the continent where Jews come from, and where the majority of Jews have always lived (except for those 210 years in Egypt)?   -- Zsero 15:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Israel is in Asia - so is Persia - were you referring to "oriental" (aka east-Asian) peoples? Btw, Zsero, not every single Jew was taken to Egypt ...

Law of return
This article contradicts the Law of Return article which says anyone under Nuremberg Law standards are considered Jewish. Can someone verify? --Gary123 (talk) 17:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Jews are only with mitocondrial dna of the jewish mother and not only y cromossome of the father

father jew + mother goy(im)/nom-jew(ish) = nom-jew(ish) = goy(im)

only mother jew = jewish forever(not goyim/gentile/nom-jew) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.13.252.107 (talk • contribs)

 * The Kaifeng Jews do not meet the requirements for the Law of return since their mothers were Chinese (i.e. not Jewish). --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Some were, some were not - if the historical sources are to be trusted. These were a mixed people, some coming from either the Levant, Persia, or perhaps even Europe.

Kaifeng Jews today
The last paragraph in the "Kaifeng Jews today" section could use some cleaning up. I'm not just talking about the link to another wiki page (I'd do that myself) but rather the contradiction regarding Kaifeng Muslims' relations towards the Kaifeng Jews: an earlier paragraph in that same section claims the opposite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.161.152.25 (talk • contribs)

 * That's because that last paragraph is nothing but a fictional story that some person keeps on adding to the page. I've removed it for a second time. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 07:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Please let's try to keep that bit about "rumours of pogroms" off the page. I just came from Kaifeng, I'm a Jew, and my girlfriend is Muslim. We had a lovely time and none of the local Muslims seemed keen to start a pogrom against me. They seemed even less keen to start a pogrom against the two Jews in their immediate vicinity, who they happily showed us to. The lady there runs kind of a touristy (for Jews) shop/museum out of her house. She certainly didn't fear pogroms, and indeed, they'd be quite impossible, as she confirms that most of the Kaifeng Jews today live outside of Kaifeng, and it's just her tiny family which does. She complained a lot more about the state of Israel and the PRC not recognising her Jewishness than anything. That entire paragraph is fairly laughable. The Muslims here would be called infidels by the Malays or Arabs or any other group keen to pogrom anybody.

 * How about you try rephrasing that so it doesn't sound like I was the person who added it. Anyway, I think the person who originally added that perceived a historical conflict between the Chinese Jews and Muslims to be modern. During the 19th century, two Chinese church delegates were sent to the Kaifeng Jewish community in order to procure some of their holy scriptures. Both of them noted tensions between the two groups in their travel journals. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 04:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm sure in the 19th Century a visitor to London or New York might have noticed tension between Jews and Christians, but that hardly has any bearing to how relations between the communities stand at present.

current status as of Year x
(2018) is not addressed - I hope someone will have time to provide a few links to Western and Eastern perspectives. I don't have enough knowledge to know whether this headline has evidence to back it up: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/25/world/asia/china-kaifeng-jews.html Chinese Jews of Ancient Lineage Huddle Under Pressure By CHRIS BUCKLEYSEPT. 24, 2016 MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 20:19, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Chinese name of Jews and Shi Kefa
Chinese words are of single syllables, how can 猶,太 be translated into three syllables? it would be seen as vandalism if correctness is constantly reverted.

And Shi Kefa is a revered person in China, I am not any sort of zealous patriot, but shouldn't we be more cautious, before hastily giving him some new nationality, regarding the respect of fact and feelings of some viewers?

In this case, "Stone" in Chinese is Shi, 石 However the Shi of Shi Kefa is another Shi, 史, which literally means "History". judging from the source given in the previous sentence, he is very likely to be irrelevant to Kaifeng Jews. Siderumhk (talk) 07:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

 * I can't find any mention of him in my genealogy books on the Kaifeng Jews. So, I doubt he was a Jew. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 08:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

"the community was known by their Han Chinese neighbors as adherents of Tiaojinjiao (挑筋教), meaning, loosely, the religion which removes the sinew (a reference to kashrut)"

As a person growing up fully immersed in a Mandarin speaking environment (Taiwan) for the first 23 years of my life, and continuing on in the next 30 years to interact in Chinese speaking communities as well as reading extensively Chinese language books and watching Chinese news media from both China and Taiwan, I have never encountered the term Tiaojinjiao (挑筋教) more than one or two times, and only in the most obscure and arcane references such as this Wiki entry. Judaism has always been simply referred to as 犹太教 (Judaism derived from the sound of the word). If the above quoted sentence was meant to pertain to how Judaism was called in the 11th or 15th Century, I would have no opinion. But its context, the entire paragraph, clearly talks about the modern reference to Judaism and the Jewish community in Chinese, and this reference to the absurd Tiaojinjiao (挑筋教) is preposterous. Ask any modern day Chinese speaker if he knows what Tiaojinjiao is! If your intention was to refer to the name of Judaism used in 11th Century China, please make it explicit and less confusing.

Ycchao (talk) 02:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC) June 10, 2010

 * actually your rant is irrelavant- this article is specifically talking about the jews who arrived in China hundreds of years ago, not modern European jews not from China. Judaism was referred to as Zhuhu in medieval times in China, not as "youtai jiao" 犹太教. the kaifeng community was always called Tiaojinjiao (挑筋教), never as 犹太教. "Youtai jiao", is a relatively recent term, used to describe foreign jews as contact increased during recent centuries.DÜNGÁNÈ (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

DNA testing
I have removed this section because neither of the quoted sources give reference to where they got the information from. This page states that as far back as the 1980s Kaifeng Jews took DNA tests that confirmed their Semitic origins. But, again, it doesn't provide any source either. Another reason why I removed it is because some of the information was incorrect. It was stated that the Jews believe that their ancestors originally arrived during the 8th century. This is not so. The Jews actually have more than one origin myth that they follow. The 1489 inscription says they arrived in the Song Dynasty (960-1279). The 1512 inscription says the Han (206 BCE-220CE). The Jew Ai Tian told Matteo Ricci in 1605 an anachronistic story of how they had arrived with Tamerlane "800 years ago." However, Tamerlane died before he could attack China in 1405, only 200 years prior. The 1663 inscription says the Zhou Dynasty (1046–256 BC). During the early 1990s, the descendants of the Jews claimed they had fled the Crusaders to China in 1099. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:07, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

 * I have removed the newly added genetics testing section (again) because the source is unreliable. As you can see from above, there have been several articles to mention the Jews' supposed genetic connection to the Jews of Armenia, Iraq, and Iran. The problem, however, is that there is no ultimate source for this study--i.e. a peer-reviewed science paper reporting the findings. For instance, this article states:

 * "A recent article that appeared in Hong Kong’s Chinese language paper, Ta Kung Po, makes reference to the municipal authority’s investigation into the legitimacy of the claims. A report compiled in the 1980’s, by authorities in Kaifeng, references the use of DNA testing on ten families, including that of Zhao Pingyu. The results indicated that while these Jews intermarried, “the Jews who were in Kaifeng mainly came from the areas around the two rivers in Iraq. They were also quite close to those Jews in Armenia and the Arab world. A rough estimate was conducted by the authority in Kaifeng...there were 618 such people.” The significance of these tests is that there is now apparently scientific proof to connect these people with their Jewish lineage."

 * It mentions the name of a newspaper, but neglects to name the "report compiled in the 1980s." Prof. Xu Xin of Nanjing university, an expert on the Kaifeng Jews, has told me that no one takes that newspaper report seriously. In addition, these DNA tests are not mentioned in any of the numerous books I have on the the Jews of China. One of them is as recent as this year (2012). --Ghostexorcist (talk) 15:08, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

 * Interesting. It seemed a little far fetched, seeing as they have been assimilated for quite some time and were only a small community to begin with. I just searched around the Web and could find no reference to the research. And there is no "contact us" link on the webpage for that article! Dubious mass media propaganda...--Ubikwit (talk) 16:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

 * There was a geneticist from Israel who was supposed to do genetic testing in 2009, but the Chinese government was giving him problems. To my knowledge, none of the tests have ever been performed. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:16, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Yue Fei Tatoo
Please add the source for the tattoo on Yue Fei's back. It was first reported in the book by Tiberiu Weisz, "The Kaifeng Stone Inscription"

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NPOV
"Little of the written works of the Kaifeng Jews have survived." I would like to delete this statement. It is not neutral to characterize the number of words qualitatively. Four or five works is a little or a lot, depending on whether you compare to the number of extant works in Moabite. MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 02:45, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * , thanks for your contributions. The information about the haggadah is an interesting addition to the article. I've made a couple of small changes, I hope that's ok.
 * The WP:NPOV policy is sometimes thought to mean that Wikipedia should employ only neutral language and statements. But the core concept is that we accurately and transparently convey what reliable sources say about the subject, without bias from our own opinions. If two very reliable sources contradict each other, we explain both sides, rather than try to pick the most "correct" or "neutral" one. In this case, the source you cited literally says "Today little remains" of the community and their written works. It's fairly obvious that the quantitative comparison is in relation to the estimated number of previously-existing works of the community that have now been lost, not to other bodies of work. I'm not saying that the statement must remain in the article, but removing it because you personally disagree would actually be an example of not following WP:NPOV.
 * I changed the "Kaifeng manuscripts" back from a list format to paragraph format. In general I think it's preferable to use prose when possible. Also, the list had mixed sentence fragments with full sentences, which should be avoided. I also changed the capitalization of "haggadah", and switched the external link you added to point directly to the existing web page, because the archive.org link, at least on my computer, didn't actually display the PDF preview.
 * --IamNotU (talk) 14:36, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * IamNotU (talk) Thank you so much for letting me learn from my own error by pointing out how I inadvertently violated NPOV when I decided that the reviewer's published choice of word was pejorative. You are correct that the published reports all characterize the number similarly (few!). Thank you for finding the link that would best display on more operating systems. MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 23:39, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Manuscripts - assumption that these are the same: "Judeo-Perisan" and "Jewish Persian hand"
I ended up having to piece together information from the review, the article, and the HUC web page to determine that the HUC library in Cincinnati was the Klau; I also had to hunt down that Judeo-Persian means lettering, not a transcription of a Judaeo-Persian spoken dialect (Judeo-Iranian_languages), so is almost certainly what reviewer David Stern reviewer means when he writes "Jewish-Persian hand." MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 23:44, 27 November 2019 (UTC) MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 23:49, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Manuscripts -- grouping for codices?
Perhaps the "Kaifeng codex" could include a grouping or at least a reference to these because there is a common attribute related to the occurrence and characterization of diacritic vowels in old Hebrew manuscripts: Leningrad_Codex and Aleppo_Codex. "Gibberish"-- the term used in the article--also turns out to be a term used to describe these two codices: Jordan_Lead_Codices and Voynich_manuscript. MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 23:47, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

"Modern Hebrew is written without vowels"
This makes it sound as though Biblical Hebrew is written with vowels. Vowels are optional in written Hebrew. Does this really need a citation? It would be like citing that English writing uses five vowels: a e i o u to represent vowel sounds. What does need citing is that "a literate Hebrew speaker can disregard these markings..." It may be true, but there is likely not a published finding or item that validates it. It would be like saying that a literate speaker of English can read the pledge of allegiance in either lower-case or upper-case letters. Would that need a citation? Perhaps what the article needs is a link to an article about the use of vowels in written Hebrew or at least a description of the structure of the Hebrew alphabet and writing system. MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 04:54, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , I'm the one who added that "citation needed" template. It was meant to cover the unsourced information about the codex, not so much about Hebrew, i.e.:
 * --IamNotU (talk) 02:31, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * This reference maintains that the errors in consonants are lamed-resh l~r alternation. Stern, David (Spring 2013). "Why Is This Haggadah Different?". Jewish Review of Books. Archived from the original on 26 November 2019. Is that the citation that would work? MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 13:20, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Adding photo of a Kaifeng manuscript?
The photo has a logo, but the material in it is not copyrighted. Can it be included? Perhaps a link to it could be included, but where? This looks like the book of names. https://web.archive.org/web/20100528065115/http://www.huc.edu/libraries/exhibits/rbr/images/yt00042t.jpg MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 13:22, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

 * The material itself is too old for copyright but HUC have owned the documents since the early 20th-century. Any scans of the documents are their exclusive property. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 13:09, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Surname Identification
The line says that modern Jews are "identifiable today" by the Ming Dynasty emperor-given surnames, but this seems faulty. These are all extremely common Chinese surnames, and the way this is framed makes it sound as if people who have those surnames today in China are likely Jewish, which is obviously untrue. I think the goal is to say that these names are still held by modern Kaifeng Jews, but this is not clear. The quote comes from the original citation given in 2009, but this information is not included in the more academic current citation. Maybe this sentence could be removed / rephrased? InstantRamenNoodle (talk) 02:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Simcha Jacobovici
"Similarly, in the documentary Quest for the Lost Tribes, by the Canadian filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici, the film crew visits the home of an elderly Kaifeng Jew who describes the recent history of the Kaifeng Jews, shows some old photographs, and shows his identity papers which state that he is a member of the Jewish ethnic group."

I've used a dozen different combinations over three hours doing a google search for an RS indeed any source that might corroborate this. The film itself is hardly mentioned anywhere. Rather than keep this up indefinitely with a tag, I'm putting it here. If someone can find an RS then it can be re-added. Nishidani (talk) 20:30, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Unclear what this passage has to do with the price of chips
I have erelocated here for the moment the following passage, which is clearly taken from Tiberiu Weisz's book which is not RS, unfortunately.

"Two of the stelae refer to a famous tattoo written on the back of Song Dynasty General Yue Fei. The tattoo, which reads 'boundless loyalty to the country', first appeared in a section of the 1489 stele talking about the Jews' 'boundless loyalty to the country and Prince'. The second appeared in a section of the 1512 stele talking about how Jewish soldiers and officers in the Chinese armies were 'boundlessly loyal to the country.'"

Yue Fei defended Kaifeng in 1127, and therefore would be relevant if some secopndary source discussed this in connection with the terms in the stele which use the same characters he had tattoed on him. But so far I can't find one. Nishidani (talk) 16:09, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

What work?
"(Scholars specializing in the study of the history and subculture of Judaism in premodern China (Sino-Judaica) have noted )surprising similarities between this work and the liturgy of the Kaifeng Jews, (descendants of Persian Jewish merchants who settled in the Middle Kingdom during the early Song dynasty.)"

 * I have corrected the reference to conform with that of the page.
 * This passage is plunbked into the middle of the text, adding repetitive language (see brackets)
 * Kaifeng Jews is linked when it is the topic pof the article.
 * In context there is nothing to make clear to the reader what this work refers to.

So it is seriously flawed in several respects. Try to state what you wante added here. Nishidani (talk) 20:54, 2 February 2023 (UTC) (2) Likewise adding an extended passage on Maimonides when we know nothing of a connection between his works and the Kaifeng Jews amounts to just adding speculative 'stuffing'Nishidani (talk) 21:09, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kaifeng Jews


text:
Hanko–Hyvinkää railway

The Hanko–Hyvinkää railway (Hangö–Hyvinge järnväg) is a 149 km railway line in southern Finland. When originally built, it was Finland's first privately funded railway.

History
Hanko is the southernmost town in Finland. Hanko has a seaport which, thanks to its location, can be used for the longest possible time during the sometimes very severe, and freezing, Finnish winters. Because all the other Finnish seaports might be frozen solid during the winter, there was an anticipation for a large amount freight transit traffic. As such, a decision was made to privately fund the 149 km railway from Hanko to the Finnish State Railways' Helsinki–Hämeenlinna line, with the connection at Hyvinkää.

Work on the new railway began in 1872 with the inaugural run being on October 8, 1873. Owing to insufficient funds, the private company soon got into financial trouble. Facing almost certain liquidation, the railroad company was sold to the Finnish State Railways in 1875. Today, the Finnish Railway Museum is based at the site of the original roundhouse and Hyvinkää railway station buildings in the town of Hyvinkää.

As the first private railway company in Finland, the railroad company obtained nine "American style" Baldwin 4-4-0 steam locomotives, in addition to four engines of European manufacture.

The line was electrified between 2021 and 2024.

Current services
The Finnish state railway company VR Group currently operates passenger services between Hanko and Karis, with connections to long-distance services from Karis to Helsinki Central Station. However, the section between Karis and Hyvinkää is freight-only.

title: Hanko–Hyvinkää railway