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Talk:Tai chi/Archive 1

It's about time to remove the Wade-Giles from the article.........

Much of the English literature about TCC is still published in Wade-Giles. Fire Star 13:28, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Change some of the misconceptions for Tai Chi. For example, (1) Tai chi does not necessary mean slow (for example, in Chen style, you have far ji - short burst of speed) or low impact (high kicks in some styles). (2) Tai Chi is a martial art whether you use it for fighting or not its up to use but to make Tai Chi alive you have to understand the reason for each posture (3) corrected the linearage for Ching Men Chen Ottawakungfu

I am removing those references which suggest that Tai Chi's "martial arts" elements are seperate from its other benefits. "Martial art" should not be used to refer only to combat techniques. BarkingDoc

In English, the "Chuan" is almost never used. I suggest moving to Tai Chi. --Jiang 05:44 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Tai Chi actually is more accurate as a disambiguation page (not as a redirect like now anyway). Because "Tai Chi" has two meanings.
 * Taiqi (太氣) "Supreme Ultimate" (a universal energy), or
 * abbreviation of Taiji(quan) (a martial art/exercise).
 * I think Taiqi is used in Taiji, but by other arts as well.
 * --Menchi 06:39 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

This article should at least have a redirect from "Taijiquan," the pinyin for "T'ai Chi Ch'uan." The spelling 'Taijiquan' is not uncommon these days.

Edededed 08:58, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Also, does anyone here know more about the so-called 'Wudang' style of Taijiquan that is included in this article? I don't think it is usually accepted as a style of taijiquan. (If nobody responds, I will edit it away from the top of the list, as it is surely a minor style.)

Edededed 03:19, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Comments
I agree that the "Wudang style" article should be removed. It isn't recognized as a major style by the families, and is likely a repackaged version of Chinese govt. Yang or Ch'en style.

Also, why is the Ch'en style article boasting about their martial ability to the exclusion of the other styles? It is fine that they are known for martial training, but the wording in the article suggests that they have more than the other styles, and that isn't strictly speaking true. All of the styles are very good for martial arts if trained the proper way. It would be equally rude if the Yang, Wu/Hao, Wu and Sun articles had sentences saying how they've all improved on Ch'en style and each other, for example. In traditional Chinese martial circles such statements just aren't made.

Comments?

-T'ai Chi Teacher

I softened the offending sentence in the Chen article, without neglecting their undisputed martial emphasis.

I also softened the Wudang article somewhat, making it more of a description of the relation between the Chang San-feng story and the theories of Neo-Confucianism, without deleting refrence to the minor style (in terms of the number of practitioners, at least) of "Wudang T'ai Chi."

-TCT

Wu Quanyou was awarded the Han surname 吳"Wu" (approximating the pronunciation of the first syllable of his family's Manchu surname) in recognition of his exemplary military service very late in his life, and the Wu family have used it ever since when referring to him. This is the story I have been told by his great-great grandson, Sifu Eddie Wu. See http://www.wustyle.com

Fire Star 13:56, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Why is there an alternative medicine infobox on this page, when it is barely mentioned in the article at all? -- Jim Regan 00:50, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I have added an alternative medicine section to the article plus supporting research. Tai Chi as you very well know is a very popular form of exercise and meditation.  Perhaps we should change the name of this article to Tai Chi?  The current title is stupid. -- John Gohde 01:38, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * No, the name of the martial art is Tai Chi Chuan. I realise that many of those who practise it purely for health reasons abbreviate it to "Tai Chi", but Tai Chi is a disambiguation page. There's a note higher up this page if you're interested. -- Jim Regan 01:53, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Ah, I just noticed that it's a redirect. Maybe you should change it into an article about the AM uses. (You'd have to have some disambiguation, but I don't see that as a problem). -- Jim Regan 01:57, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The martial and the therapeutic are interdependant in T'ai Chi Ch'uan. You really can't have one without the other and this is addressed in the article. TCC is presented to new students strictly as a martial art by the 5 families mentioned in the article, and the health benefits are taught as secondary. They are told why a certain set of move works martially, then how they enhance health, and then how the health improvement will enhance their martial abilities.Fire Star 05:26, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * How do people feel about having that Complimentary/Alternative Medicine Box on the article? Before you respond you might like to know that the person who added it, Mr Natural Health, is currently in arbitration  for adding these boxes to many tens of articles.  However, I am not sufficiently interested in Tai Chi to guage whether this instance is useful.  Personally, I feel it's of dubious value. --bodnotbod 01:20, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

It was removed. T'ai Chi has a lot of potential to help people help themselves, but as a professional T'ai Chi teacher representing a prominent (and conservative) T'ai Chi family I don't call it a form of alternative medicine. Therapy, perhaps, for the right person. Training, certainly. Many of us don't like to be associated with the New Age "natural" holistic crowd, as they don't seem (at least to us) to really know what they are doing. Fire Star

I've put together an article using pinyin at Taijiquan (pinyin article). Fire Star 16:44, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Romanization
Hi Taichiseeker. We currently have two versions of the same article (T'ai Chi Ch'uan and Taijiquan (pinyin article)) in order to avoid problems between those who prefer pinyin and those who prefer Wade-Giles. They are cross-referenced, so it is easy enough for someone who wants to check the other version to switch back and forth. This helps to avoid the inelegant and confusing mixture of different romanization schemes in the same article, a problem endemic to articles relating to Chinese culture. I hope this helps. Fire Star 16:44, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No. I don't think we should have two versions of the same article. It's harder to maintain them both with two different versions. We can always include both romanization systems in one article. WhisperToMe 03:12, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See Talk:Taijiquan (pinyin article) WhisperToMe 03:15, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I am consolidating both articles. WhisperToMe 03:15, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't pinyin being "formally used" by the whole wikipedia? I mean: the rest of the world is going in that direction since years; it's even the official standard of the Library of Congress and ISO. Of course redirects should be in place, but I think any "article" should be named using official pinyin. --Lapo Luchini 16:39, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, T'ai Chi became well known to the English speaking world in its Wade-Giles form. Most people, schools and publications still use the Wade-Giles form or at least a derivative of it. As well, a significant portion of the writing in English, translation and original, still uses Wade-Giles. I tried having both for a while. Myself, I don't like either system, but we are stuck with them. Fire Star 14:59, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!
List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

World championship event
Anyone know what this "world championship" event is? http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/prweb/20041216/bs_prweb/prweb188826_1
 * 7th Chung Hwa Cup International Tai Chi Chuan Championships was on December 4-5 in Taiwan and sponsored by the International Tai Chi Chuan Federation Headquarters (website http://www.cttaichi.org.tw  )   Pictures of Josh Waizkin at the event are at his website http://www.joshwaitzkin.com/news.html Petersam 20:52, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, it seems like just another tournament. The winners may call themselves "world champions," but that doesn't mean the rest of the world will recognize them as such. I had a chance to ask the late Master Wu Ying-hua (Wu Chien-ch'uan's daughter) about the relative importance of tournaments to T'ai Chi training. She repied: "It is a nice hobby and a good way to promote your school, but it has no bearing on whether or not you are actually learning T'ai Chi Ch'uan. T'ai Chi Ch'uan's focus isn't competition, you do it for yourself, not other people. You could be highly accomplished and never have entered a tournament in your life." Fire Star 21:25, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Lineage project
I have removed this link from the article:

The Taiji Lineage Project by Oliver Richman

The site appears sloppy and is riddled with duplicates (due to multiple romanisation schemes) and inaccuracies in its designations of Chinese names and who studied with whom over the years. I will be happy to provide citations on request. The website says that the project is open to input from lineage holders in the various T'ai Chi Ch'uan family lineages (which I am), but even though I have been in email contact with Richman and provided my references he was dismissive and informed me offhandedly that he didn't intend to update the site. If anyone one else is dead set on including this link, perhaps at the bottom of the article, it should have a caveat appended. Fire Star 16:37, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Name of Form/Posture/Movement pages
Which is better for naming a Form/Posture/Movement page: "24 Form T'ai Chi Ch'uan" or "T'ai Chi Ch'uan 24 Form"? I might be adding more pages for 42, 48, 37, and others Petersam 01:40, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Either one is fine with me, since they'll be linked from the main page most people finding them will go from there. I've seen them designated both ways by different schools. I think I like the sound of "T'ai Chi Ch'uan 24 Form" better, but it is entirely subjective on my part. We should have a redirect from whichever version isn't the primary title, however. Fire Star 02:21, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Since the other Form pages (103 form Yang family T'ai Chi Ch'uan and 108 form Wu family T'ai Chi Ch'uan) have the nn Form before T'ai Chi, I will continue to do the same. Petersam 23:47, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Meaning of "supreme ultimate"
"Supreme ultimate" sounds kinda boastful, but according to B.K. Frantzis (in his book "The Power of Internal Martial Arts") it's actually Taoist religious jargon. Quoting: "Tai chi is the taoist philosophical term for that place of nonduality from which the specific opposing yin and yang forces of any modality exist in a potential undifferentiated state before they seperate into some form of opposite (dual) manifestation"

 * The concept owes a lot to the Neo-Confucian school as well. Bruce is actually quoting a passage common to many of the family T'ai Chi classics. T'ai 太, is a superlative of "big," meaning "bigger than big" and Chi 極 in its meaning of "an ultimate goal of life" is a rebus of a man standing on the ground reaching for the sky, for Heaven, with his hand and his mouth (word and deed), in addition to the tree radical on the left which also implies that which is beyond the average human's grasp. So it is a bit boastful in a martial sense, but mostly it implies that T'ai Chi Ch'uan is a transcendant art form in a Taoist/Neo-Confucian sense. Fire Star 18:58, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Important Addition
It appears an administrator has taken it upon himself to leave out 50% of what Taijiquan is all about. That is fighting. Since he will probably revert it back, ill put my blurb here.

The above definition left out a very important aspect of what Taijiquan is about, that aspect is fighting. Taijiquan was developed to be a system of fighting, the health benifits are a byproduct that was capitalized mainly by Chen-Man Ching, otherwise reffered to as "CMC" in China. He removed the explosive movements, and martial aspect so he could share it with the elderly for health purposes. When it was brought the USA it was brought to California during the 60's hippy revolution. Anything Chinese was "counter-culture" so Taijiquan enjoyed great success in its watered down "Tai Chi" format. People should be informed that by not knowing how to fight with Taijiquan they are not doing the art, but only a partial immitation in the form of a health dance.

Done correctly, and trained correctly Taijiquan is a devastating fighting art. Contrary to what most people think its not about minimal harm, Taiji's methods can be very nasty, poking eyes out, snapping necks, striking to vital areas, its all there. Sadly most Taijiquan instructors are not really as advertised, they are frauds when it boils down to it, they only teach an empty health dance form, not the great art of "Taijiquan".

 * Umm, we already talk about the martial art all through the article, and again at pushing hands, nei chia, and Chinese martial arts. What you are saying isn't wrong, but since we already do thoroughly discuss T'ai Chi's martial aspect in this series of articles, restating it is superfluous at best. Also, as you say, most people who take a T'ai Chi class never train, or even want to train, martially. Fire Star 02:42, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The format of this twice reverted addition is not proper for an encyclopedia, but I do agree with its author that the article is biased. I think it must be stated quite clearly in the article that the tai chi world is divided into different styles and schools, putting different weight on the different aspects of the art, and that the matter is controversial.

 * I don't understand why you'd think the article is biased. I'm familiar with the field, having studied for 21 years, 18 of them with the Wu family, and have gone out of my way to mention the notable aspects of the different manifestations of T'ai Chi Ch'uan. The article does list different styles and schools, at least the major ones (some of which have their own articles), and the differences between them, martial versus health, are briefly mentioned. To put value judgments in great detail on those differences would be too close to POV, one would think. There are hundreds of schools and styles, the most notable being the families and the Chinese govt. The most popular styles get the most notice, which is a statistical bias, if anything. Fire Star 13:45, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I got to agree with the first poster. I don't think this article mentions enough about the fighting aspect of the martial art, only the watered down hippy style, that seems to be so popular with the Western Practioners right now. - AviAvi

 * I don't know what article you guys are reading, but this one mentions the martial aspect of T'ai Chi training all through it. T'ai Chi Ch'uan happens to be more than just a martial art, though, and Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia that should report on as many aspects of a subject as possible. If you don't have the health aspect of T'ai Chi, then your training is incomplete, at least according to the T'ai Chi families. IME, they know more about it than the hippies or the "ninjas." Fire Star 01:15, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

 * There has been mention of taijiquan's martial history and application but the emphasis is definitely on the health side of things. While taiji is more than a martial art it is first and foremost a martial art... --Shadowdh 10:02, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

 * HI there... I am pretty new to this wikipedia, so will try not to make too many mistakes... I have read the article and it looks ok (but it does have a heavy health/alternative bias)I have made some slight changes to the article (just suggestions really), nothing too grand but some things that may be needed...

T'ai Chi Ch'uan or Taijiquan (Chinese: 太極拳; pinyin: Tàijíquán; literally "supreme ultimate fist"), commonly known as T'ai Chi, Tai Chi, or Taiji, is a nei chia ("internal") Chinese martial art which is first and foremost a martial art, is also known for the claims of health and longevity benefits made by its practitioners and in some recent medical studies. T'ai Chi Ch'üan is known as an internal or soft style martial art, an art applied with as complete a relaxation or "softness" in the musculature as possible, to distinguish its theory and application from that of the external or hard styles which use a degree of tension in the muscles. T'ai Chi Ch'uan is best known as the slow motion routines groups of people practice every morning in hundreds of parks across China and, increasingly, other parts of the world. In T'ai Chi classes one is taught awareness of one's own balance and what affects it, awareness of the same in others, and appreciation of the practical value in one's ability to moderate extremes of behavior and attitude at both mental and physical levels '''and about taijiquan’s applications for self defence. ''' Overview While its practitioners have historically considered it primarily a style of martial art, T'ai Chi Ch'uan is also called an art of moving meditation. T'ai Chi theory and practice shares many of the principles of traditional Chinese medicine. Besides general health benefits and stress management attributed to beginning and intermediate level T'ai Chi training, many therapeutic interventions along the lines of traditional Chinese medicine are taught to advanced T'ai Chi students in traditional schools. T'ai Chi Chuan as physical training is characterized by its requirement for the use of leverage through the joints based on coordination in relaxation rather than muscular tension. The slow, repetitive work involved in that process is said to gently increase and open the internal circulation (breath, body heat, blood, peristalsis, etc.). Over time, proponents say, this enhancement becomes a lasting effect, a direct reversal of the physical effects of stress on the human body. This reversal allows much more of the students' native energy to be available to them, which they may then apply more effectively to the rest of their lives; families, careers, spiritual or creative pursuits, hobbies, etc. The study of T'ai Chi Ch'uan involves three primary subjects: •	Health - an unhealthy or otherwise uncomfortable person will find it difficult to meditate to a state of calmness or to use Tai Chi as a martial art. Tai Chi's health training therefore concentrates on relieving the physical effects of stress on the body and mind. •	Meditation - the focus meditation and subsequent calmness cultivated by the meditative aspect of T'ai Chi is seen as necessary to maintain optimum health (in the sense of effectively maintaining stress relief or homeostasis) and in order to use it as a soft style martial art. •	Martial art - the ability to competently use T'ai Chi as a martial art is said to be proof that the health and meditation aspects are working according to the dictates of the theory of T'ai Chi Ch'uan. The Mandarin term "T'ai Chi Ch'uan" translates as "Supreme Ultimate Boxing" or "Boundless Fist". T'ai Chi training involves learning solo routines, known as forms, and two person routines, known as pushing hands, as well as acupressure-related manipulations taught by traditional schools. T'ai Chi Ch'üan is seen by many of its schools as a Taoist practice, and it does seemingly incorporate many Taoist principles into its practice (see below). It is an art form said to date back many centuries (although not reliably documented under that name before 1850), with precursor disciplines dating back thousands of years. The explanation given by the traditional T'ai Chi family schools for why so many of their previous generations have dedicated their lives to the study and preservation of the art is that the discipline it seems to give its students to dramatically improve the effects of stress in their lives, with a few years of hard work, should hold a useful purpose for people living in a stressful world. They say that once the T'ai Chi principles have been understood and internalized into the bodily framework the practitioner will have an immediately accessible "toolkit" thereby to improve and then maintain their health, to provide a meditative focus, and that can work as an effective and subtle martial art for self-defence. Teachers say the study of T'ai Chi Ch'uan is, more than anything else, about challenging one's ability to change oneself appropriately in response to outside forces. These principles are taught using the examples of physics as experienced by two (or more) bodies in combat. In order to be able to protect oneself using change, it is necessary to understand what the consequences are of changing appropriately, changing inappropriately and not changing at all in response to an attack. Students, by this theory, will appreciate the full benefits of the entire art in the fastest way through physical training of the martial art aspect. Wu Chien-ch'üan, co-founder of the Wu family style, described the name T'ai Chi Ch'uan this way at the beginning of the 20th century: "Various people have offered different explanations for the term T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Some have said: 'In terms of self-cultivation, one must train from a point of movement towards a point of quiescence. T'ai Chi comes about through the harmony of yin and yang. In terms of the art of attack and defense then, in the context of transformations of full and empty, one is constantly inwardly latent, not outwardly expressive, as if the yin and yang of T'ai Chi have not divided apart.' Others say: 'Every movement of T'ai Chi Ch'uan is based on circles, just like the shape of a T'ai Chi symbol. Therefore, it is called T'ai Chi Ch'uan.' Both explanations are quite reasonable, especially the second, which is fuller." T'ai Chi training and techniques As the name T'ai Chi Ch'uan is held to be derived from the T'ai Chi symbol, the Taijitu or T'ai Chi t'u (太極圖, pinyin tàijítú), commonly known in the West as the "yin-yang" diagram, T'ai Chi Ch'uan techniques are said therefore to physically and energetically balance yin (receptive) and yang (active) principles: "From ultimate softness comes ultimate hardness." The core training involves two primary features: the first being the solo form or quan or ch'uan (拳), a slow sequence of movements which emphasise a straight spine, but not necessarily vertical spine, relaxed breathing and a natural range of motion; the second being different styles of pushing hands or tui shou or t'ui shou (推手) for training "stickiness" and sensitivity in the reflexes through various motions from the forms in concert with a training partner in order to learn leverage, timing, coordination, finding the opponents centre and positioning when interacting with another. Pushing hands is seen as necessary not only for training the self-defense skills of an internal style such as T'ai Chi by demonstrating the forms' movement principles experientially, but also it is said to improve upon the level of conditioning provided by practice of the solo forms by increasing the work load on students while they practise those movement principles. The solo form should take the students through a complete, natural, range of motion over their centre of gravity. Accurate, repeated practise of the solo routine is said to retrain posture, encourage circulation throughout the students' bodies, maintain flexibility through their joints and further familiarize students with the martial application sequences implied by the forms. The major styles of T'ai Chi have forms which differ somewhat cosmetically, but there are also many obvious similarities which point to their common origin. The solo forms, empty-hand and weapon, are catalogues of movements that are practised individually in pushing hands and application scenarios to prepare students for self-defence training. In most traditional schools different variations of the solo forms can be practiced; fast/slow, small circle/large circle, square/round (which are different expressions of leverage through the joints), low sitting/high sitting (the degree to which weight-bearing knees are kept bent throughout the form), for example. In a fight, if one uses hardness to resist violent force then both sides are certain to be injured, at least to some degree. Such injury, according to T'ai Chi theory, is a natural consequence of meeting brute force with brute force. The collision of two like forces, yang with yang, is known as "double-weighted" in T'ai Chi terminology. Instead, students are taught not to fight or resist an incoming force, but to meet it in softness and "stick" to it, following its motion while remaining in physical contact until the incoming force of attack exhausts itself or can be safely redirected, the result of meeting yang with yin. Done correctly, achieving this yin/yang or yang/yin balance in combat (and, by extension, other areas of one's life) is known as being "single-weighted" and is a primary goal of T'ai Chi Ch'uan training. Lao Tzu provided the archetype for this in the Tao Te Ching when he wrote, "The soft and the pliable will defeat the hard and strong." This soft "neutralization" of an attack can be accomplished very quickly in an actual fight by an adept practitioner. A T'ai Chi student has to be well conditioned by many years of disciplined training; stable, sensitive and elastic mentally and physically in order to realize this ability, however. Other training exercises include: •	Weapons training and fencing applications employing the straight sword known as the jian or chien or gim (jiàn 劍), a heavier curved sabre, sometimes called a broadsword or tao (dāo 刀, which is actually considered a big knife), fan, staff (棍), 7 foot (2 m) spear and 13 foot (4 m) lance (both called qiāng 槍). Less commonly known weapons still in use are the large Da Dao or Ta Tao (大刀) or Bagua sabre, halberd (jǐ 戟), cane, rope-dart, Three sectional staff and steel whip. •	Two-person tournament fighting (san shou 散手); •	Breathing exercises; nei gong or nei kung (內功 nèigōng) or, more commonly, qigong or ch'i kung (氣功 qìgōng) to develop qi or ch'i (氣 qì) or "breath energy" in coordination with physical movement. These were formerly taught only to disciples as a separate, complementary training system. In the last 50 years they have become more well known to the general public. T'ai Chi's martial aspect relies on sensitivity to the opponent's movements and centre of gravity dictating appropriate responses. Effectively affecting or "capturing" the opponent's centre of gravity immediately upon contact is trained as the primary goal of the martial T'ai Chi student, and from there all other technique can follow with seeming effortlessness. The alert calmness required to achieve the necessary sensitivity is acquired over thousands of hours of first yin (slow, repetitive, meditative, low impact) and then later adding yang ("realistic", active, fast, high impact) martial training; forms, pushing hands and sparring. T'ai Chi Ch'uan trains in three basic ranges, close, medium and long, and then everything in between. Pushes and open hand strikes are more common than punches, and kicks are usually to the legs and lower torso, never higher than the hip in most styles. The fingers, fists, palms, sides of the hands, wrists, elbows, shoulders, back, hips, knees and feet are commonly used to strike, with strikes to the eyes, throat, heart, groin and other acupressure points trained by advanced students. There is an extensive repertoire of joint traps, locks and breaks (chin na), particularly applied to lock up or break an opponent's elbows, wrists, fingers, ankles, back or neck. Most T'ai Chi teachers expect their students to thoroughly learn defensive or neutralizing skills first, and a student will have to demonstrate proficiency with them before offensive skills will be extensively trained. There is also an emphasis in the traditional schools on kind-heartedness. One is expected to show mercy to one's opponents, as instanced by a poem preserved in some of the T'ai Chi families said to be derived from the Shaolin temple: "I would rather maim than kill Hurt than maim Intimidate than hurt Avoid than intimidate." T'ai Chi styles and history There are five major styles of T'ai Chi Ch'üan, each named after the Chinese family that teaches (or taught) it: •	Ch'en style (陳氏) •	Yang style (楊家) •	Wu or Wu/Hao style of Wu Yu-hsiang (武家) •	Wu style of Wu Ch'uan-yü and Wu Chien-ch'üan (吳家) •	Sun style (孫家) The order of seniority is as listed above. The order of popularity is Yang, Wu, Ch'en, Sun, and Wu/Hao. The five family styles share much underlying theory, but differ in their approaches to training. There are also several groups teaching what they call Wu Tang style T'ai Chi Ch'üan: •	Wu Tang (Wudang) (武當) The designation Wu Tang Ch'üan is also used to broadly distinguish internal or nei chia martial arts (said to be a specialty of the monasteries at Wu Tang Shan) from what are known as the external or wei chia styles based on Shaolin Ch'üan, although that distinction is sometimes disputed by individual schools. In this broad sense, among many T'ai Chi schools all styles of T'ai Chi (as well as related arts such as Pa Kua Chang and Hsing-i Ch'üan) are therefore considered to be "Wu Tang style" martial arts. The schools that designate themselves "Wu Tang style" relative to the family styles mentioned above mostly claim to teach an "original style" they say was formulated by a Taoist monk called Zhang Sanfeng and taught by him in the Taoist monasteries at Wu Tang Shan. Some consider that what is practised under that name today may be a modern back-formation based on stories and popular veneration of Zhang Sanfeng (see below) as well as the martial fame of the Wu Tang monastery (there are many other martial art styles historically associated with Wu Tang besides T'ai Chi). There is also a modern T'ai Chi style going by the name Wudang as a term of convenience that is fairly well-known internationally, especially in the UK and Europe, originally taught by a student of the Wu (吳) style. When tracing T'ai Chi Ch'üan's formative influences to Taoist and Buddhist monasteries, one has little more to go on than legendary tales from a modern historical perspective, but T'ai Chi Ch'üan's practical connection to and dependence upon the theories of Sung dynasty Neo-Confucianism (a conscious synthesis of Taoist, Buddhist and Confucian traditions, esp. the teachings of Mencius) is readily apparent to its practitioners. The philosophical and political landscape of that time in Chinese history is fairly well documented, even if the art later to become known as T'ai Chi Ch'üan's origin in it is not. T'ai Chi Ch'üan's theories and practice are therefore believed by some schools to have been formulated by the Taoist monk Chang San-feng in the 12th century, a time frame fitting well with when the principles of the Neo-Confucian school were making themselves felt in Chinese intellectual life. Therefore the didactic story is told that Chang San-feng as a young man studied Tao Yin (導引, py dǎoyǐn) breathing exercises from his Taoist teachers and martial arts at the Buddhist Shaolin monastery, eventually combining the martial forms and breathing exercises to formulate the soft or internal principles we associate with T'ai Chi Ch'üan and related martial arts. Its subsequent fame attributed to his teaching, Wu Tang monastery was known thereafter as an important martial center for many centuries, its many styles of internal kung fu preserved and refined at various Taoist temples. T'ai Chi in the present Recently there has been some divergence between those who say they practise T'ai Chi primarily for fighting, those who practise it for its aesthetic appeal (as in the shortened, modern, theatrical "Taijiquan" forms of wushu, see below), and those who are more interested in its benefits to physical and mental health. The wushu aspect is primarily for show, the forms taught for those purposes are designed to earn points in competition and are mostly unconcerned with either health maintenance or martial ability. More traditional stylists still see the two aspects of health and martial arts as equally necessary pieces of the puzzle, the yin and yang of T'ai Chi Ch'üan. The T'ai Chi "family" schools therefore still present their teachings in a martial art context even though the majority of their students nowadays profess that they are primarily interested in training for the claimed health benefits. T'ai Chi has become very popular in the last twenty years or so, as the baby boomers age and T'ai Chi's reputation for ameliorating the effects of aging becomes more well-known. Hospitals, clinics, community and senior centers are all hosting T'ai Chi classes in communities around the world. Along with Yoga, it is one of the fastest growing fitness and health maintenance activities, in terms of numbers of students enrolling in classes. Since there is no universal certification process, and most Westerners haven't seen very much T'ai Chi and don't know what to look for, practically anyone can learn or even make up a few moves and call themselves a teacher. Relatively few of these teachers even know that there are martial applications to the T'ai Chi forms. Those who do know that it is a martial art usually don't teach martially themselves. If they do teach self-defense, it is often a mixture of motions which the teachers think look like T'ai Chi Ch'uan with some other system. This is especially evident in schools located outside of China. While this phenomenon may have made some external aspects of T'ai Chi available for a wider audience, the traditional T'ai Chi family schools see the martial focus as a fundamental part of their training, both for health and self-defense purposes. They indicate that while the students may not need to practice martial applications themselves to derive a benefit from T'ai Chi training, their teachers at least should know the applications well enough to ensure that the movements they teach are done correctly and safely by their students. Also, working on the ability to protect oneself from physical attack (one of the most stressful things that can happen to a person) certainly falls under the category of complete "health maintenance." For these reasons they feel that a school not teaching those aspects somewhere in their syllabus cannot be said to be actually teaching the art itself, and will be much less likely to be able to reproduce the full health benefits that have made traditional T'ai Chi Ch'uan's reputation in the first place. Modern forms In order to standardize T'ai Chi Ch'uan for its citizens' daily exercise, and because many of the family T'ai Chi Ch'uan teachers either moved or stopped teaching after the Communist regime was established in 1949, the Chinese Sports Committee brought together four T'ai Chi experts who truncated the Yang family hand form to 24 postures in 1956. They wanted to somehow retain the essential principles of T'ai Chi Ch'uan but make it less difficult to learn than longer (generally 88 to 108 posture) classical family T'ai Chi Ch'uan hand forms. Because shorter forms don't have the conditioning benefits of the classical forms, they wanted more difficult forms for the purposes of further studies and demonstration that didn't have the demanding martial requirements of the traditional family forms. In 1976, the Combined 48 Forms were created by three T'ai Chi experts headed by Professor Men Hui Feng. The combined forms were created based on combining and condensing elements of the classical forms of four of the major styles; Ch'en, Yang, Wu, and Sun. The idea was to take what they felt were distinctive features of these styles and to express them in a short space of time. As T'ai Chi again became popular on the Mainland, competitive forms were developed to be completed within a 6 minute time limit. In the late 1980s, the Chinese Sports Committee standardized the many different competition forms. It had chosen the four major styles and combined forms. These five sets of forms were created by different teams, and later approved by a committee of T'ai Chi experts in China, but not by direct representatives of most of the T'ai Chi families themselves. All sets of forms thus created were named after their style, e.g., the Ch'en Style National Competition Form is the 56 Forms, and so on. The combined forms are The 42 Form or simply the Competition Form, as it is known in China. In the 11th Asian Games of 1990, wushu was included as an item for competition for the first time with the 42 Form being chosen to represent T'ai Chi. It is likely to be the official form in the 2008 Summer Olympics. [2] (http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/short.htm)[3] (http://www.ohioshaolin.com/China%27s%20Arts/history_of_tai_chi_42_competitio.htm) Representatives of some of the traditional families do not necessarily agree with the assessments of the Chinese Sports Committee, however. T'ai Chi Ch'uan has historically been seen by them as a martial art, not a sport, with competitions mostly entered as a hobby or to promote one's school publicly, but with little bearing on measuring actual accomplishment in the art. Their criticisms of modern forms include that the modern, "government" routines, being what they see as a mostly random combination by committee of some external elements of the traditional styles, have no standardized, internally consistent training requirements. Also, that people studying competition forms rarely train pushing hands or other power generation trainings vital to learning the martial applications of T'ai Chi Ch'uan and thereby lack the quality control traditional teachers say knowing the martial aspect of the art is essential for. T'ai Chi as a form of traditional Chinese medicine Researchers have found that long-term T'ai Chi practice had favorable effects on the promotion of balance control, flexibility and cardiovascular fitness and reduced the risk of falls in elders. The studies also reported reduced pain, stress and anxiety in healthy subjects. Other studies have indicated improved cardiovascular and respiratory function in healthy subjects as well as those who had undergone coronary artery bypass surgery. Patients also benefited from Tai Chi who suffered from heart failure, high blood pressure, heart attacks, arthritis and multiple sclerosis (See research citations listed below).

Its not alot... the changes I added/made are in bold (I hope)... --Shadowdh 10:16, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, the edits in boldface that you propose are fairly reasonable. While TCC is a martial art, and should always be taught that way, most people who actually do the forms do them solely for health purposes. Martial students are unfortunately very rare nowadays, and we have to represent that. To those of us who practise the martial, of course, the two aspects are inseparable. I will re-open the article once our spammer has gone to sleep in a few hours ;-) Once we have worked them in, I will be archiving this talk page as it is getting a bit long... Fire Star 03:55, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Spamming
As you will see from the page history, we have a dynamic range spammer who has been vandalising the external links section. From what I can guess, they are on the west coast of North America, and I will probably protect the page during the "business hours" of that part of the world for now. If anyone wants to legitimately edit the article, please contact me or another admin and we can unprotect the page for you. Fire Star 04:43, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tai chi/Archive 1


text: Template:Sejm Marshals of the Second Polish Republic

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text: File:The Greatest Game Ever Played poster.JPG


text:
Flying Saucer Attack

Flying Saucer Attack is an English space rock band formed in Bristol in 1992, led by songwriter David Pearce. Rachel Brook (now Rachel Coe) of Movietone was a member during the band's early incarnation; Other musicians contributing to the group's recordings and live performances included Rocker (ex-the Flatmates), Matt Elliott (aka the Third Eye Foundation) and Sam Jones (of Crescent).

Drawing on krautrock, folk and dream pop, the group referred to their DIY sound as "rural psychedelia" and were associated with bands of the contemporary post-rock and shoegaze scenes. The band was able to create a small but enthusiastic fanbase, and were notable for recording most of their output at home, avoiding recording studios.

History
Pearce had previously been a member of Ha Ha Ha, releasing the Up and Down EP in 1985. He then formed Rosemary's Children, issuing the 1986 single "Southern Fields" and 1987 album Kings and Princes. While at art school in Farnham, he met other Bristol musicians and played through the early 1990s as a member of various groups including the Secret Garden, the Distance and Linda's Strange Vacation.

Flying Saucer Attack formed in 1992 as a loose collective centered on the core of Pearce and Brook, releasing their debut single, "Soaring High", in January 1993 on their own FSA label. Their second single, "Wish", followed that June. Both singles were issued as limited edition vinyl 7-inches in handmade packaging.

The group's first studio album (self-titled, but sometimes called Rural Psychedelia as those words appeared on the cover) was released in 1993, and included a noisy cover of Suede's contemporary single "The Drowners", which provoked press interest in the record. Like the earlier singles, the album was released on FSA's own label by Heartbeat Productions, and was deliberately only made available on vinyl. The album was released in the United States by VHF Records in early 1994, on CD and vinyl – the CD bore the legend "compact discs are a major cause of the breakdown of society" (other releases would carry messages such as "keep vinyl alive", "home taping is reinventing music" and "less is more").

The band then signed to Domino Recording Company. The first release for the new label was Distance (October 1994), which collected the early singles and some unreleased material. It was released in the US by VHF. A contemporaneous non-album single, "Land Beyond the Sun", was Flying Saucer Attack's first release on US label Drag City, which issued it on 25 September 1994, followed by a Domino release the following month.

A second studio album, Further, was released on 17 April 1995, by Domino and Drag City. A cover of Wire's "Outdoor Miner" was released as a single that year. Another singles compilation followed, Chorus on 20 November 1995, including a sleeve note stating that "this album marks the end of FSA phase one". In 1995, Brook left the band to concentrate on Movietone.

A version of the folk song "Sally Free and Easy" was initially only released as a single on CD on 5 November 1996; the sleeve note explained that the pressing plant had been unable to cut it to vinyl (a US plant later achieved the feat by using a monaural master, and it was issued on 12" by Drag City). Full-length 1996 releases included In Search of Spaces, an album consisting of early 1994 live tracks (mainly unstructured noise, released by Bruce Russell's Corpus Hermeticum imprint), and Distant Station, an album with two long tracks constructed by fellow Domino act Tele:Funken from samples of the band.

The three-song "Goodbye" EP, released 21 January 1997 on VHF Records, was a mix of old and new material; the second track, recorded live in April 1995, featured New Zealand guitarist Roy Montgomery.

New Lands, Flying Saucer Attack's third studio album, was released in October 1997. The band described it as "phase two", but it did not depart from the usual mixture of aggressive feedback and noise, and gentle folk-influenced melody. After New Lands and a final vinyl-only 7" single, "Coming Home", both issued in 1997, Pearce left Domino.

The "phase 2" version of Flying Saucer Attack accepted an invitation to participate in a tribute album to Moby Grape co-founder Skip Spence, who was dying of lung cancer. More Oar: A Tribute to the Skip Spence Album, featuring their cover of "Grey - Afro", was released by Birdman Records on 6 July 1999.

Flying Saucer Attack's fourth studio album, Mirror, was released 17 January 2000 on FSA, effectively marking the end of the group for the next 15 years. Pearce subsequently collaborated with Jessica Bailiff under the name Clear Horizon; the duo released an eponymous album on Kranky in 2003.

The only new material released by the band during their sabbatical came in 2008, when Flying Saucer Attack participated in a two-disc Fire Records compilation setting all 36 poems from James Joyce's 1907 Chamber Music poetry collection to music by contemporary alternative acts.

After a 15-year hiatus, Flying Saucer Attack released a new album, Instrumentals 2015, on 17 July 2015.

Musical style
Their musical style has been described as space rock, post-rock, shoegaze, and dream pop.

Studio albums

 * Flying Saucer Attack (1993, FSA Records)
 * Further (1995, Domino Records/Drag City)
 * New Lands (1997, Domino Records/Drag City)
 * Mirror (2000, FSA Records/Drag City)
 * Instrumentals 2015 (2015, Domino Records/Drag City)

Singles and EPs

 * "Soaring High" (1993, FSA Records)
 * "Wish" (1993, FSA Records)
 * "Crystal Shade" (1994, FSA Records)
 * "Land Beyond the Sun" (1994, Domino Records/Drag City)
 * "Beach Red Lullaby" (1995, Planet Records)
 * "Outdoor Miner" (1995, Domino Records))
 * "At Night" split with Jessamine (1996, Enraptured)
 * "Sally Free and Easy" (1996, Domino Records/Drag City)
 * "Goodbye" featuring Roy Montgomery (1997, VHF Records)
 * "Up in Her Eyes" (1997, Stop Smiling)
 * "Coming Home" (1997, Domino Records)

Live albums

 * In Search of Spaces (1996, Corpus Hermeticum)

Compilation albums

 * Distance (1994, Domino Records/VHF Records)
 * Chorus (1995, Domino Records/Drag City)
 * Mort Aux Vaches split with Main and White Winged Moth (2000, Mort Aux Vaches)
 * P.A. Blues (2004, VHF Records)
 * Heartbeat / Complete (2012, Weltraum)

Collaboration albums

 * Distant Station with Tele:Funken (1996, Domino Records/Drag City)

Compilation appearances

 * "Since When (One)", "Since When (Two)", "Since When (Three)" and "Since When (Four)" on Harmony of the Spheres (1996, Drunken Fish Records)
 * "Grey - Afro" on More Oar: A Tribute to the Skip Spence Album (1999, Birdman Records)
 * "XXIV Silently She's Combing" on Chamber Music: James Joyce (1907). 1-36. (2008, Fire Records )

title: Flying Saucer Attack


text:
Salman al-Murshid

Salman al-Murshid (سلمان المرشد; 1907 – 16 December 1946) was a Syrian Alawi religious figure, political leader, and the founder of al-Murshidiyah religious sect.

Early beginnings
Salman al-Murshid was born as Salman Yunus (سلمان يونس) in the village of Jawbat Burghal, in the Latakia Sanjak.

His emerging power worried both local notable Alawite families and the French authorities, who arranged to have him and some of his followers sent to Raqqa in exile in the mid-1920s. Yet when al-Murshid returned, he managed to patch up his problems with local notables.

In 1937, he became a member of Parliament, and avoided the separatist approach advocated for by some among Syria's minority groups. Yet once it appeared that the French would not make good on their promise to grant Syria independence in 1936, al-Murshid began to call for independence again. In 1943, he was elected again as a member of the central Syrian Parliament.

In 1944, under British instigation, al-Murshid was arrested in Beirut and kept in Damascus under house arrest for a few months.

The Syrian government tried to charge him with treason and other civil charges, but they could not prove any of the charges. Hence, the Judge received a direct order from the president, Shukri al-Quwatli, to convict Salman by any means, and he was executed on 16 December 1946 in Marjeh Square in Damascus.

Followers
His movement respected al-Murshid and, following his death, his sons Mujib and Saji. The followers of al-Murshid later became known as Al-Murshidiyah (المرشدية) named after his second son Mujib Al-Murshid, who was killed by Abd Elhak Shihada (عبد الحق شحادة), a military police commander, (by direct order from Adib Shishakli) on 27 November 1952. Murshidians were persecuted by the Syrian authorities until President Hafez al-Assad came to power in 1970. Since then, Al-Murshidyah was practiced relatively freely like any other religion. After the 1984 confrontation between Hafez al-Assad and his younger brother Rifaat al-Assad, the Al-Murshid family was allowed to return to the Latakia region. Murshidiya soldiers in Rifaat's Defense Companies had sided with the President in the confrontation.

Murshidians only exist in Syria in which they mostly spread out in Latakia Governorate, Homs Governorate, Al-Ghab Plain and Damascus. Their numbers may vary from 300 to 500 thousand people. They celebrate a festival called "Joy in God" for three days, starting from 25 August of each year, this day commemorates the beginning of the new religion by Mujib al-Murshid. In these three days, people make private prayers, dress well and offer desserts as a way of celebration.

title: Salman al-Murshid


text:
The Greatest Game Ever Played

The Greatest Game Ever Played is a 2005 American biographical sports film based on the early life of amateur golf champion Francis Ouimet and his surprise winning of the 1913 U.S. Open. The film was directed by Bill Paxton, and was his last film as a director. Shia LaBeouf plays the role of Ouimet. The film's screenplay was adapted by Mark Frost from his 2002 book, The Greatest Game Ever Played: Harry Vardon, Francis Ouimet, and the Birth of Modern Golf. It was shot in Montreal, Quebec, Canada, with the Kanawaki Golf Club, in Kahnawake, Quebec, the site of the golf sequences.

Plot
Set mainly in 1913, the film is about Francis Ouimet (Shia LaBeouf), the first amateur to win the U.S. Open. Amateur golf in that era was a sport only for the wealthy, and Ouimet came from an Irish and French-Canadian immigrant family that was part of the working class. Ouimet watches an exhibition by legendary Jersey golf pro Harry Vardon (Stephen Dillane) as a 7-year-old boy, and becomes very interested in golf. He begins as a caddie at The Country Club, a posh enclave located across the street from his home in suburban Brookline, Massachusetts, while making friends with the other caddies. He works on his own golf game at every chance, and gradually accumulates his own set of clubs. Francis practices putting at night in his room. He wins the Massachusetts Schoolboy Championship.

One day, a Club member, Mr. Hastings (Justin Ashforth), asks Ouimet to play with him over The Country Club course, where caddies have almost no access of their own, and he shoots a fine round of 81 despite a 9 on one hole. His talent, composure, and good manners earn admirers and interest. With the help of Mr. Hastings and the Club Caddiemaster, Francis gets a chance to play in an upcoming tournament, the U.S. Amateur, the local qualifying which is to be held at the very same Country Club course. However, his father Arthur (Elias Koteas) tells his son to quit golf and get a "real job". Ouimet needs $50 for the entry fee, and so agrees to get a real job and never play golf again if he can not qualify; his father lends him the money. On the 18th, Francis faces a three-foot putt that would secure him a spot in the championship, but he looks over and his father is watching. Ouimet is distracted, misses and falls one stroke short of qualifying for the championship proper.

With much jeer from the rich folk, Ouimet, now 20, fulfills his promise to his dad and works at a sporting goods shop, while continuing to live at home. After some time with his golf forgotten, Ouimet is still at the bottom of the working class. But one day, the president of the United States Golf Association enters the store and personally invites him to play in the upcoming U.S. Open. After some maneuvering and consideration from his employer, Ouimet secures entry. His father informs Ouimet that he must find his own place to live after the tournament and Ouimet agrees to this arrangement. However, his mother has been supportive of his golf from the start. She admonishes Ouimet's father for failing to recognize Ouimet's talent and the value of showcasing that talent in an important tournament.

Ouimet competes in the 1913 U.S. Open that takes place at The Country Club. The favorites are British champions Vardon and Ted Ray (Stephen Marcus), who are accompanied by the snobbish Lord Northcliffe (Peter Firth), and the reigning U.S. Open champion, John McDermott. Northcliffe looks to see that either Vardon or Ray wins the Open, to affirm British dominance over the Americans in golf, and also to prove that only gentlemen are able champions. Ouimet competes with his 10-year old friend, Eddie Lowery (Josh Flitter), who skips school to caddie for Ouimet. After the first two rounds, Vardon and Ray have a seemingly comfortable lead, with McDermott unable to keep up. After some initial struggles, Ouimet rallies and ultimately ties with Vardon and Ray at the conclusion of the fourth round, resulting in the three of them competing in an 18-hole playoff to determine the champion.The night before, Northcliffe mocks Ouimet's social status to Vardon. Exasperated, Vardon, who hails from humble beginnings himself, angrily tells Northcliffe that if Ouimet wins, it will be solely due to his skill, not his background. Vardon also reminds Northcliffe that a gentleman would not begrudge Ouimet the respect he deserves.

The playoff round begins, with all three competitors neck and neck until the back nine, where Ray begins to fall behind, leaving Ouimet leading Vardon by a single stroke as they approach the final hole. Vardon concludes with a par, setting the stage for Ouimet to secure victory with a par of his own. Sensing Ouimet's nerves before the crucial putt, Eddie offers reassurance, enabling Ouimet to sink the putt and claim the U.S. Open title. Amidst the jubilant crowd lifting them on their shoulders, individuals start offering money to Ouimet, who graciously declines all but one bill, offered by his proud father. Inside the clubhouse, Vardon extends his private congratulations to Ouimet and proposes a friendly round together in the future. Ouimet and Eddie make their way home proudly carrying the U.S. Open trophy.

The epilogue explains that Harry Vardon went on to win his sixth British Open Championship the following year, Francis Ouimet won two amateur championships and became a businessman, and Eddie Lowery became a multi-millionaire, remaining lifelong friends with Ouimet.

Historical accuracy
The movie shows a dramatic finish in the playoff, with Ouimet sinking a putt on the 18th hole to win the Championship by a single stroke. In reality, Ouimet finished birdie-par on 17 and 18 to Vardon's bogey-double bogey to end the playoff five strokes clear of Vardon and six ahead of Ray. The movie also shows the playoff as being in fair weather, and moves the rain to the third round. In the movie the historical 17th hole plays as a "dog leg right" when in fact at Brookline Country Club is played as a "dog leg left".

Box office
The film opened at #9 at the U.S. box office in its opening weekend grossing US$3,657,322.

Critical
The film received generally positive reviews, from golf fans and non fans of the sport alike. Roger Ebert gave it three out of four stars, stating it gave the real history of the greatest golf match with a strong human element while showing the golf play in a "gripping story". He notes that he is "not a golf fan but found (it) absorbing all the same... Paxton and his technicians have used every trick in the book to dramatize the flight and destination of the golf balls. We follow balls through the air, we watch them creep toward the green or stray into the rough, we get not only an eagle's-eye view but a club's-eye view and sometimes, I am convinced, a ball's-eye view." Larry King proclaimed it "every bit as good as Seabiscuit."

On the review aggregation website Rotten Tomatoes, 63% of critics gave the film a positive "fresh" review. The website concludes, "Despite all the underdog sports movie conventions, the likable cast and lush production values make The Greatest Game Ever Played a solid and uplifting tale."

Home media
The film has been released on DVD and UMD by Walt Disney Home Entertainment. Special features include two "making of" documentaries with cast and crew members, plus a rare 1963 interview with the real Francis Ouimet on WGBH, the Boston public television station, at Brookline, Massachusetts golf course where the 1913 U.S. Open took place. It was released on Blu-ray Disc in 2009, and again as a DVD/Blu-ray combo pack in 2011. It is now available to stream via Disney+ as of 2019.

title: The Greatest Game Ever Played


text: Template:Sejm Marshals of the Third Polish Republic


title: User:Arag0rn


text: User talk:69.224.38.147

title: User talk:69.224.38.147


text:
Talk:Aholibamah

Last paragraph
Is that talking about somehting from the Book of Enoch? It should be stated as such if it is. 16:07, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

The part about the seraph and other planet is entirely unsupported by accepted biblical doctrine. The name 'Aholibama' only occurs five or six times in the Torah, and none of the passages even mentions a seraph. 70.242.201.194 02:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Aholibamah


text:
Cissus

Cissus is a genus of approximately 350 species of lianas (woody vines) in the grape family (Vitaceae). They have a cosmopolitan distribution, though the majority are to be found in the tropics.

Medicinal
Cissus quadrangularis has been evaluated for potential medical uses. As a source of carotenoids, triterpenoids and ascorbic acid the extracts may have potential for medical effects, including "gastroprotective activity" and benefits in terms of "lipid metabolism and oxidative stress". Cissus quinquangularis was used by the Maasai people of Kenya to relieve some of the symptoms of malaria.

Ornamental
Cissus antarctica, Cissus alata and Cissus incisa are cultivated as garden plants, depending on area of the world. Succulent members of the genus such as Cissus quadrangularis are also found in the nursery trade but tend to be frost tender and are thus not widely cultivated.

Ecology
Cissus species are used as food plants by the larvae of some Lepidoptera species including Hypercompe eridanus and Hypercompe icasia. They are also consumed by chimpanzees.

Taxonomy
The generic name is derived from the Greek word κισσος (kissos), meaning "ivy". In the 1980s the genus was split according to some details of the flower. The large caudiciform species were moved to the new genus Cyphostemma.

The genus name was established by Carl Linnaeus who used species epithets that are adjectives with feminine grammatical gender in Latin (e.g., C. trifoliata L.). This matches the pattern that names of trees ending in -us in Latin have feminine gender, although other plant names ending in -us are usually masculine.

Species
Plants of the World Online currently includes:

 * 1) Cissus acrantha Lauterb.
 * 2) Cissus acreensis Lombardi
 * 3) Cissus adamii Detoit
 * 4) Cissus adeyana Masinde & L.E.Newton
 * 5) Cissus adnata Roxb.
 * 6) Cissus alata Jacq. – grape ivy
 * 7) Cissus albida Cambess.
 * 8) Cissus albiporcata Masinde & L.E.Newton
 * 9) Cissus amapaensis Lombardi
 * 10) Cissus ambongensis Desc.
 * 11) Cissus amoena Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 12) Cissus amplexicaulis Trias-Blasi & J.Parn.
 * 13) Cissus anemonifolia Zipp. ex Miq.
 * 14) Cissus angustata Ridl.
 * 15) Cissus anisophylla Lombardi
 * 16) Cissus annamica Gagnep.
 * 17) Cissus antandroy Desc.
 * 18) Cissus antarctica Vent. – kangaroo treevine
 * 19) Cissus anulata Desc.
 * 20) Cissus apendiculata Lombardi
 * 21) Cissus aphylla Chiov.
 * 22) Cissus aphyllantha Gilg
 * 23) Cissus araguainensis Lombardi
 * 24) Cissus aralioides (Welw. ex Baker) Planch.
 * 25) Cissus arguta Hook.f.
 * 26) Cissus aristata Blume
 * 27) Cissus aristolochiifolia Planch.
 * 28) Cissus aristolochioides Planch.
 * 29) Cissus arnottiana B.V.Shetty & Par.Singh
 * 30) Cissus assamica (M.A.Lawson) Craib
 * 31) Cissus astrotricha Gagnep.
 * 32) Cissus aubertiana (Gage) P.Singh & B.V.Shetty
 * 33) Cissus auricoma Desc.
 * 34) Cissus austroyunnanensis Y.H.Li & Y.Zhang
 * 35) Cissus bachmaensis Gagnep.
 * 36) Cissus bahiensis Lombardi
 * 37) Cissus barbeyana De Wild. & T.Durand
 * 38) Cissus barteri (Baker) Planch.
 * 39) Cissus bathyrhakodes Werderm.
 * 40) Cissus bauerlenii Planch.
 * 41) Cissus behrmannii Lauterb.
 * 42) Cissus bequaertii Detoit
 * 43) Cissus bicolor Domin
 * 44) Cissus biformifolia Standl.
 * 45) Cissus blanchetiana Planch.
 * 46) Cissus boivinii Planch.
 * 47) Cissus bosseri Desc.
 * 48) Cissus bracteosa Lombardi
 * 49) Cissus brevipes C.V.Morton & Standl.
 * 50) Cissus cactiformis Gilg
 * 51) Cissus cacuminis Standl.
 * 52) Cissus caesia Afzel.
 * 53) Cissus calcicola Craib
 * 54) Cissus camiriensis Lombardi
 * 55) Cissus campestris (Baker) Planch.
 * 56) Cissus carrissoi Exell & Mendonça
 * 57) Cissus cerasiformis (Teijsm. & Binn.) Planch.
 * 58) Cissus coccinea (Baker) Mart. ex Planch.
 * 59) Cissus cochinchinensis Spreng.
 * 60) Cissus colombiensis Lombardi
 * 61) Cissus comosa Desc.
 * 62) Cissus compressiflora Lombardi
 * 63) Cissus conchigera Ridl.
 * 64) Cissus convolvulacea Planch.
 * 65) Cissus cornifolia (Baker) Planch.
 * 66) Cissus corylifolia (Baker) Planch.
 * 67) Cissus coursii Desc.
 * 68) Cissus craibii Gagnep.
 * 69) Cissus crusei Wild & R.B.Drumm.
 * 70) Cissus cucumerifolia Planch.
 * 71) Cissus cucurbitina Standl.
 * 72) Cissus cuspidata Planch.
 * 73) Cissus cussonioides Schinz
 * 74) Cissus darik Miq.
 * 75) Cissus dasyantha Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 76) Cissus dealbata Bedd.
 * 77) Cissus decaryi Wahlert & Phillipson
 * 78) Cissus decidua Lombardi
 * 79) Cissus descoingsii Lombardi
 * 80) Cissus dewevrei De Wild. & T.Durand
 * 81) Cissus dichotoma Blume
 * 82) Cissus diffusiflora (Baker) Planch.
 * 83) Cissus dinklagei Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 84) Cissus discolor Blume
 * 85) Cissus diversilobata C.A.Sm.
 * 86) Cissus doeringii Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 87) Cissus duarteana Cambess.
 * 88) Cissus duboisii Dewit
 * 89) Cissus egestosa Werderm.
 * 90) Cissus ellenbeckii Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 91) Cissus elongata Roxb.
 * 92) Cissus erecta S.H.Cho & Y.D.Kim
 * 93) Cissus erosa Rich. – caro de tres hojas
 * 94) Cissus evrardii Gagnep.
 * 95) Cissus fanshawei Wild & R.B.Drumm.
 * 96) Cissus farinosa Planch.
 * 97) Cissus faucicola Wild & R.B.Drumm.
 * 98) Cissus flavifolia Lombardi
 * 99) Cissus floribunda (Baker) Planch.
 * 100) Cissus forsteniana (Miq.) Planch.
 * 101) Cissus fragilis E.Mey. ex Harv.
 * 102) Cissus fuliginea Kunth
 * 103) Cissus furcifera Chiov.
 * 104) Cissus fusifolia Lombardi
 * 105) Cissus gambiana Desc.
 * 106) Cissus gardneri Thwaites
 * 107) Cissus glandulosa (Forssk. ex J.F.Gmel.) J.F.Gmel.
 * 108) Cissus glaucophylla Hook.f.
 * 109) Cissus glaucotricha Lombardi
 * 110) Cissus glossopetala (Baker) Suess.
 * 111) Cissus glyptocarpa Thwaites
 * 112) Cissus gongylodes (Baker) Burch. ex Baker – marble treevine
 * 113) Cissus gossweileri Exell & Mendonça
 * 114) Cissus gossypiifolia Standl.
 * 115) Cissus goudotii Planch.
 * 116) Cissus grisea (Baker) Planch.
 * 117) Cissus guerkeana (Büttner) T.Durand & Schinz
 * 118) Cissus haematantha Miq.
 * 119) Cissus hamaderohensis Radcl.-Sm.
 * 120) Cissus hastata Miq.
 * 121) Cissus heteroma Turcz.
 * 122) Cissus heterophylla Poir.
 * 123) Cissus heterotoma Turcz.
 * 124) Cissus hexangularis Thorel ex Planch.
 * 125) Cissus heyneana Steud.
 * 126) Cissus hookeri Ridl.
 * 127) Cissus humbertiana Desc.
 * 128) Cissus humbertii Robyns & Lawalrée
 * 129) Cissus hypoglauca A.Gray
 * 130) Cissus integrifolia Planch.
 * 131) Cissus intermedia A.Rich.
 * 132) Cissus inundata (Baker) Planch.
 * 133) Cissus kerrii Craib
 * 134) Cissus koordersii (Backer) Amshoff
 * 135) Cissus kouandeensis A.Chev.
 * 136) Cissus kouilouensis Desc.
 * 137) Cissus lamprophylla Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 138) Cissus lanea Desc.
 * 139) Cissus latifolia Lam.
 * 140) Cissus lebrunii Dewit
 * 141) Cissus leemansii Dewit
 * 142) Cissus lemurica Desc.
 * 143) Cissus lenticellata (Baker) Suess.
 * 144) Cissus leonardii Dewit
 * 145) Cissus leucophlea (Scott Elliot) Suess.
 * 146) Cissus lineata Warb.
 * 147) Cissus lonchiphylla Thwaites
 * 148) Cissus longicymosa Lombardi
 * 149) Cissus louisii Detoit
 * 150) Cissus luzoniensis (Merr.) C.L.Li
 * 151) Cissus macrobotrys Turcz.
 * 152) Cissus macrophylla Jungh.
 * 153) Cissus madecassa Desc.
 * 154) Cissus marcanii Craib
 * 155) Cissus mauritiana Desc.
 * 156) Cissus mexicana Moc. & Sessé ex DC.
 * 157) Cissus microcarpa Vahl
 * 158) Cissus microdonta (Baker) Planch.
 * 159) Cissus miegei Tchoumé
 * 160) Cissus migeodii Verdc.
 * 161) Cissus milnei Verdc.
 * 162) Cissus mirabilis (Urb. & Ekman) Lombardi
 * 163) Cissus morifolia Planch.
 * 164) Cissus narinensis Lombardi
 * 165) Cissus neei Croat
 * 166) Cissus nicaraguensis Lombardi
 * 167) Cissus nigropilosa Dewit
 * 168) Cissus nobilis Kuhlm.
 * 169) Cissus nodosa Blume
 * 170) Cissus notabilis Doweld
 * 171) Cissus novemfolia (Wall. ex M.A.Lawson) Planch.
 * 172) Cissus nymphaeifolia (Welw. ex Baker) Planch.
 * 173) Cissus obliqua Ruiz & Pav.
 * 174) Cissus oblonga (Benth.) Planch.
 * 175) Cissus oblongifolia Merr.
 * 176) Cissus obovata Vahl
 * 177) Cissus oliveri (Engl.) Gilg ex Engl.
 * 178) Cissus oreophila Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 179) Cissus osaensis Lombardi
 * 180) Cissus oxyodonta (Baker) Desc.
 * 181) Cissus palmata Poir.
 * 182) Cissus palmatifida (Baker) Planch.
 * 183) Cissus paniculata (Balf.f.) Planch.
 * 184) Cissus paraensis Lombardi
 * 185) Cissus parviflora Schult. & Schult.f.
 * 186) Cissus patellicalyx Lombardi
 * 187) Cissus paucinervia Lombardi
 * 188) Cissus paullinifolia Vell.
 * 189) Cissus peltata Turcz.
 * 190) Cissus penninervis (F.Muell.) Planch.
 * 191) Cissus pentaclada Jackes
 * 192) Cissus pentagona Roxb.
 * 193) Cissus perrieri Desc.
 * 194) Cissus peruviana Lombardi
 * 195) Cissus petiolata Hook.f.
 * 196) Cissus phymatocarpa Masinde & L.E.Newton
 * 197) Cissus picardae Urb.
 * 198) Cissus pileata Desc.
 * 199) Cissus pingtungensis S.S.Ying
 * 200) Cissus pinnatifolia Lombardi
 * 201) Cissus planchoniana Gilg
 * 202) Cissus planchonii Gagnep.
 * 203) Cissus polita Desc.
 * 204) Cissus polyantha Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 205) Cissus populnea Guill. & Perr.
 * 206) Cissus producta Afzel.
 * 207) Cissus prunifera Desc.
 * 208) Cissus × pseudocaesia Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 209) Cissus pseudofuliginea Lombardi
 * 210) Cissus pseudoguerkeana Verdc.
 * 211) Cissus pseudopolyantha Mildbr.
 * 212) Cissus pseudoverticillata Lombardi
 * 213) Cissus psoralifolia (F.Muell.) Planch.
 * 214) Cissus pteroclada Hayata
 * 215) Cissus pubinervis Blume
 * 216) Cissus pulcherrima Vell.
 * 217) Cissus pynaertii De Wild.
 * 218) Cissus quadrangularis L.
 * 219) Cissus quadricornuta (Miq.) Hochr.
 * 220) Cissus quarrei Dewit
 * 221) Cissus quinquangularis Chiov.
 * 222) Cissus reniformis Domin
 * 223) Cissus repanda (Wight & Arn.) Vahl
 * 224) Cissus repens Lam.
 * 225) Cissus rhamnoidea Planch.
 * 226) Cissus rheifolia Planch.
 * 227) Cissus rhodotricha (Baker) Desc.
 * 228) Cissus robinsonii (Ridl.) Craib
 * 229) Cissus rondoensis Verdc.
 * 230) Cissus rostrata (Miq.) Korth. ex Planch.
 * 231) Cissus rotundifolia Vahl
 * 232) Cissus rubiginosa (Welw. ex Baker) Planch.
 * 233) Cissus rubropilosa Lombardi
 * 234) Cissus rufescens Guill. & Perr.
 * 235) Cissus ruginosicarpa Desc.
 * 236) Cissus ruspolii Gilg
 * 237) Cissus sagittifer Desc.
 * 238) Cissus salehi Lodé
 * 239) Cissus saponaria (Benth.) Planch.
 * 240) Cissus schmitzii Dewit
 * 241) Cissus sciaphila Gilg
 * 242) Cissus senegalensis Lavie
 * 243) Cissus serroniana (Glaz.) Lombardi
 * 244) Cissus serrulatifolia L.O.Williams
 * 245) Cissus silvestris Tchoumé
 * 246) Cissus smithiana (Baker) Planch.
 * 247) Cissus spinosa Cambess.
 * 248) Cissus sterculiifolia (F.Muell. ex Benth.) Planch.
 * 249) Cissus stipulata Vell.
 * 250) Cissus subaphylla (Balf.f.) Planch.
 * 251) Cissus suberecta Bedd.
 * 252) Cissus subhastata Gagnep.
 * 253) Cissus subramanyamii B.V.Shetty & Par.Singh
 * 254) Cissus subrhomboidea (Baker) Planch.
 * 255) Cissus sue Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 256) Cissus sulcicaulis (Baker) Planch.
 * 257) Cissus sulfurosa Desc.
 * 258) Cissus sumatrana Latiff
 * 259) Cissus surinamensis Desc.
 * 260) Cissus sylvicola Masinde & L.E.Newton
 * 261) Cissus terengganuensis Latiff
 * 262) Cissus teysmannii Miq.
 * 263) Cissus tiliacea Kunth
 * 264) Cissus tiliiformis Desc.
 * 265) Cissus tinctoria Mart.
 * 266) Cissus touraensis A.Chev.
 * 267) Cissus trianae Planch.
 * 268) Cissus trifoliata (L.) L.
 * 269) Cissus trigona Willd.
 * 270) Cissus triloba (Lour.) Merr.
 * 271) Cissus triternata Miq.
 * 272) Cissus trothae Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 273) Cissus ursina Lombardi
 * 274) Cissus uvifer Afzel.
 * 275) Cissus venezuelensis Steyerm.
 * 276) Cissus verticillata (L.) Nicolson & C.E.Jarvis – Seasonvine
 * 277) Cissus vinosa Jackes
 * 278) Cissus viridescens Ridl.
 * 279) Cissus vitiginea L.
 * 280) Cissus voanonala (Baker) Suess.
 * 281) Cissus wallacei Verdc.
 * 282) Cissus wellmanii Gilg & M.Brandt
 * 283) Cissus welwitschii (Baker) Planch.
 * 284) Cissus wenshanensis C.L.Li
 * 285) Cissus woodrowii (Stapf ex Cooke) Santapau
 * 286) Cissus wrightiana Planch.
 * 287) Cissus xerophila Lombardi
 * 288) Cissus youngii Exell & Mendonça
 * 289) Cissus zombitsy Desc.

Formerly placed here

 * Ampelopsis glandulosa var. brevipedunculata (Maxim.) Momiy (as C. brevipedunculata Maxim. )
 * Ampelopsis orientalis (Lam.) Planch. (as C. orientalis Lam. )
 * Ampelopsis vitifolia Planch. (as C. vitifolia Boiss. )
 * Cayratia geniculata (Blume) Gagnep. (as C. geniculata Blume )
 * Cayratia trifolia (L.) Domin (as C. trifolia (L.) K.Schum. )
 * Clematicissus opaca
 * Cyphostemma bainesii (Hook.f.) Desc. (as C. bainesii (Hook.f.) Gilg & M.Brandt )
 * Cyphostemma cirrhosum (Thunb.) Desc. (as C. cirrhosa (Thunb.) Willd. )
 * Cyphostemma currorii (Hook.f.) Desc. (as C. currorii Hook.f. or C. crameriana Schinz )
 * Cyphostemma juttae (Dinter & Gilg) Desc. (as C. juttae Dinter & Gilg )
 * Rhoicissus tomentosa (Lam.) Wild & R.B.Drumm. (as C. capensis Willd. or C. tomentosa Lam. )
 * Strychnos umbellata (Lour.) Merr. (as C. umbellata Lour. )
 * Tetrastigma leucostaphylum (Dennst.) Alston ex Mabb. (as C. lanceolaria Roxb. or C. leucostaphyla Dennst. )
 * Tetrastigma serrulatum (Roxb.) Planch. (as C. serrulata Roxb. )

title: Cissus


text:
Talk:Rome, Watertown and Ogdensburg Railroad/to do

 * Add the company logo
 * Add a system map
 * Add references
 * Add photos of RW&O trains and buildings


text:
User:Cornstar~enwiki

CornStar

title: User:Cornstar~enwiki


text:
Derek Ratcliffe

Derek Almey Ratcliffe (9 July 1929 – 23 May 2005) was one of the most significant British nature conservationists of the 20th century. He was Chief Scientist for the Nature Conservancy Council at the Monks Wood Experimental Station, Abbots Ripton, Huntingdon, retiring in 1989. Ratcliffe was the author of the 1977 Nature Conservation Review, a document which set out the most important sites for nature conservation in the United Kingdom. He also published various works on nature and conservation.

Biography
Derek Ratcliffe grew up in Carlisle, and married his wife, Jeannette, in March 1978.

Ratcliffe was the first person to discover the link between the use by farmers of pesticides—such as DDT and Dieldrin—and the decline of British populations of birds of prey, particularly the peregrine falcon.

He was instrumental in persuading the UK government to end the tax advantages available for planting non-native conifer forests on Scottish peat bogs, which was threatening the internationally important large wetland area of Caithness and Sutherland known as the Flow Country.

Ratcliffe studied for a PhD at the University of Wales, Bangor, completing it in 1953. He then undertook National Service. He was awarded the British Trust for Ornithology's Bernard Tucker Medal in 1964.

One of his most often cited works is a study on egg shell breakage conducted in the 1960s. Some, including Rachel Carson in her book Silent Spring, have interpreted the study as establishing a causal link between DDT contamination and thinning of egg shells in raptors.

Among his many other studies of the topic are papers on the effect on specific bird species, such as the peregrine falcon, the raven, In these studies he developed "Ratcliffe's Index," considered "a reliable measure of relative shell thickness"

Publications
Derek Ratcliffe's most important publications include:
 * Plant Communities of the Scottish Highlands (1962, with Donald McVean)
 * A Nature Conservation Review (1977 ISBN 0-521-21159-X)
 * The Peregrine Falcon (Poyser, 1980; expanded second edition 1993)
 * Bird Life of Mountain and Upland (Cambridge University Press, 1991 ISBN 0-521-33123-4)
 * The Raven (Poyser, 1997)
 * In Search of Nature (Broadfield, 2000)
 * Lakeland (Collins New Naturalist, 2002 ISBN 0-00-711304-8)
 * Lapland: a natural history (Poyser, 2005 ISBN 0-7136-6529-7)
 * Galloway and the Borders (Collins New Naturalist, 2007 ISBN 0-00-717401-2. Completed a few days before his death in 2005)

title: Derek Ratcliffe


text:
Talk:Stealth ship

Nonsense?
I do not agree with the speedy deletion because the article is not nonsense anymore. The external links prove it. ( I do not think that the technology will ever be successful but that is a different issue). Andries 16:08, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Some of it is still nonsense, like the paragraph about the X form. -Amatulic 17:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

 * After 2 months of no comments, I eliminated the X-form terminology while keeping the content intact. -Amatulic 20:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

 * That's right. X-form in this sense is used only occasionally, mostly by journalists. CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 20:57, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

 * ...and I notice (from searching google) that a lot of those references to "X-form" trace back to Wikipedia. -Amatulic 21:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I think they need to paint them black as they grey they have painted them with will look really visible at night (whats the point in being undetecable on radar if your enemies can see u just by looking in your direction?) It might mess up the stealthness of the ships but the B-2 (stealth fighter in the american air force) is all so painted black and must work pretty damn well because the americans pay millions to have them built!!!

83.197.153.3 16:34, 7 December 2005 (UTC) Stealth ship of China : http://www.wforum.com/specials/articles/03/22932.html

 * Painting a ship black is also nonsense. Visual contrast relationships remain the same in any light level, even in the dark. It makes sense to paint the ship decks black (and they are, or nearly so) because the ocean looks black when viewed from the sky. The Navy's research indicates that "haze gray" is the best overall color in all conditions. Ship masts used to be painted black to disguise the soot deposits from the stacks, but that's not a problem anymore the cleaner-burning gas turbines, so the masts are now gray also. Amatulic 17:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Please expand on the reson for the removal of the Vsiby picture, I do not understand the rationale.Mossig 11:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Loose definition
I'd say that you can't put all these ships in the same basket. All the conventional ships with a few radar image-reducing features (nansen, the german frigates, etc) should be classed as 'low-observable', while real stealth ships designed from the ground up to be less visible on radar (sea shadow, visby, skjold, ddx etc) are the only ones fit to be called stealth ships. This is similar to the division between aircraft with 'low-observable features' like the Eurofighter and Rafale contra the B-2, F-117, F-35 and F-22.

 * Stealth aircraft

Notice the division between 'fully stealth' and 'reduced RCS' designs. --Joffeloff 13:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Is Steregushchy class corvette "stealth" or "reduced RCS"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.201.110 (talk) 14:10, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Visby first of her kind?
Article says Visby was first to enter service, it was launched in 2000, when for example Finnish FNS Hamina was already commissioned ever since 1998, and naturally launched even before that. Visby's hull was laid down in 1995, but being laid down doesn't count as being in service. Ape89 (talk) 14:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

 * The statement about Visby is wrong. Even in the mid-1990s, we had the French Lafayette class, as well as the US Arleigh Burke class, which preceded the Visby. I have removed the statement from the article. The statement also cited a dead link, which I have also removed. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Stealth technology was developed gradually, so it is difficult to say which ship was the first actual stealth ship. On Burke class, the only "stealth" feature was that vertical surfaces were angled. Lafayette class does have more stealth features, but those only reduce the radar signature by 60%, so the radar cross section is equivalent to that of traditional corvette. (I wonder if a destroyer or bigger ship can ever be called stealth.) The radar cross section of Visby is reduced by 99% compared to traditional corvette (so it is 1/100 of that of Lafayette). Hamina class probably has similar reduction and the ship is smaller, so I reckon it should have radar cross section comparable to a rowing boat. However, Hamina class was not the first stealthy ship in Finland. Its predecessor Rauma class (commissioned 1990) was already considered a stealth ship, and even its predecessor, Helsinki class (1980) had some stealth features, at least as much as Burke class.
 * Further, it should be noted that small radar cross section is not the only thing that makes a stealth ship. Other things to consider are infrared visibility (a normal ship is like a lighthouse when seen with infrared camera), sound, magnetic field, emitted radio signals, and of course visual visibility. --PauliKL (talk) 16:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

 * I agree that you can't point at a ship and say "this was first" - you could go as far back as the CSS Virginia from the Civil War (although her shape wasn't intended for stealth). And it's true that there's more to stealth than radar, although radar is still currently the primary means of detection and tracking at sea.
 * However, much of what else you wrote up there is wrong. I worked as a signature management engineer in the Navy. I was involved in the RCS treatments on the Arleigh Burke class. Those ships have far more than just angled vertical surfaces; all topside objects (ladders, stanchions, steps, handles) are shaped, and she includes several types of surface treatments for RCS as well as infrared treatment for stack gases. Based on our at-sea tests, her signature is far less than you think compared to other destroyers. Even though the purpose of Burke's design was not to evade detection but to defeat radar-guided missiles, the class easily qualifies as stealthy, at least for that time. We also analyzed other ships. The Lafayette class's features reduce its signature to less than 1/1000 (30 dB or more) of a conventional frigate (not 60%, that's only -4 dB reduction). The Visby has even greater reduction, being designed primarily for stealth. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:39, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Juan Ricardo is not a Stealth Ship
The Juan Richardo Oyola Vera class is not a stealthy design. Its shaping is meant for ballistic protection, not for radar cross section reduction. 76.235.63.58 (talk) 02:43, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page
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✅ This issue has been resolved, and I have therefore removed the tag, if not already done. No further action is necessary.— cyberbot II NotifyOnline 20:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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30DX frigate
The 30DX frigates have a major emphasis on stealth, where should they be placed? -Fhcgh (talk) 22:17, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Reduced signature isn't the same thing as stealth. These ships have a major emphasis on reduced signature, not stealth. There appear to have been some cost considerations affecting the design. The topside clutter and vertical structures present, in my mind, disqualify it from being a stealth ship. The ship has reduced signature, however, which doesn't prevent detection, but would allow anti-ship missile countermeasures (like chaff) to be much more effective. I'd put it in the "Reduced radar cross-section ships" section, because of the similarity to the San Antonio-class amphibious transport dock. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:26, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't get it, if the Mogami-class frigate was disqualified, then why was the Ada-class corvette (and also the Type 055 destroyer & Hamina-class missile boat) qualified in the "fully stealth" list? Sorry, I'm not really knowledgable in this field, and I, visually, can't understand why they are classified like that.  Hwi . padam   08:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Stealth ship


text:
Talk:Sadeness (Part I)

Fair use rationale for Image:EnigmaSadeness.jpg
Image:EnigmaSadeness.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The translation is flawed.

Examples:

_____________________________________

"(Latin) Procedamus in pace, In nomine Christi, Amen

(Translation) Let us go forth in peace, In the name of Christ, So be it"

"(Latin) Procedamus in pace, In nomine Christi, Amen

(Translation) Shall we proceed in peace, In the name of Christ, Amen"

These two original lines are identical, but the translations are not. Why not?

(Translation) Lift up ye heads o ye glorious gates, And be ye lifted up ye everlasting doors..."

I don't have any idea what this might mean. It seems the translator has tried to reach some kind of olden, artistic style. The problem is, it hardly makes any sense.

Also, in the first case, "amen" is translated (correctly) as "so be it", but in the others it's left intact. I guess I'll make some minor changes here and there, but as I don't speak either Latin of French, there's not much I can do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.193.13.15 (talk) 22:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The "Lift up ye heads ..." line is a quote from Psalm 24:7. See http://www.biblegateway.com to help find a translation you can better understand. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Single releases
Tha article appears to show that the single was on CD only in the UK, and only on vinyl in France. It was of course available on 7" vinyl in the UK, on Virgin DINS 101 - see my image http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Ts9LJhS --Julesomega (talk) 21:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

number one in 24 countries?
There reads: it became an international smash hit, reaching number one in 24 countries and the top ten in many others

So, why does the chart section only have 15 countries listed with #1 position? If there is nine more, why not put them there too? 85.76.169.72 (talk) 23:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Currently there are 19 number one countries in the list, in which there are 16 different countries. (US and Netherlands have two entries, and Europe is not a country). The table has 20 countries (+Europe) with top 10 chart place. Additionally Canada and Netherlands have one more top ten, US four more (so US had five top ten places with this one song...). Though the claim still has after few years, the tag [citation needed] 109.240.230.91 (talk) 03:09, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I have edited the claim to match the information actually in the article - number one in 14 countries (I removed Japan as it was uncited, not in the charts section, and I couldn't find any sources myself). I looked through the edit history and found it was originally added to the article in July 2011 by an anonymous editor who had in an series of edits with no edit summaries, expanded the lede from one sentence to a paragraph. This is a prime example of where editors should remember to be bold and removed unsourced material - and speaking of, anyone looking to source the 24 countries claim, take care! You will find sites and articles claiming this, but you will also find that their source was the erroneous information on Wikipedia. There is a risk of citogenesis. H. Carver (talk) 21:22, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Sadeness (Part I)


text:
User talk:Dacoffey

1

title: User talk:Dacoffey