text:
Talk:Paradox of thrift

POV disputes
I want to either remove the sections of Criticism and Austrian Criticism, or at else condense them to their essentials and provide the standard rebuttals. To avoid an edit war I will first flag the sections and explain the fallacies here.

But mainly I want to say that the paradox of thrift is logically true.
 * You can say it all you want, but it remains a load of hogwash just like the rest of Keynes' blatherings. 76.103.102.240 (talk) 15:32, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, now I believe you, anonymous IP, and not the father of modern macroeconomics! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.73.199.69 (talk) 18:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The paradox of thrift is that (1) total saving must equal total investment and (2) total saving can not be increased beyond the demand for investment.

The sections called criticism do not argue against the paradox of thrift, instead they simply restate it in different words.

Non-criticisms
"Second, and perhaps more important, savings represent loanable funds. These funds represent an increase in potential lending and investing by borrowers of the said savings. Among other things, this represents an increase in the supply of such loanable funds that will lower interest rates and stimulate borrowing. So a decline in consumer spending is offset by an increase in institutional (such as banks) lending and subsequent spending."

As long as their is an unmet demand for investment, indicated by high interest rates, total savings can be increased. The paradox only applies once you reach a point where a further increase in saving, and thus a decrease in consumption, would lead to lower demand for investment. Total savings can not be increased beyond that point.

"This criticism is especially significant because the extreme degree of saving, that would obviously connect saving to hard times, is rare. The aforesaid 'saving for a rainy day' is never considered paradoxical. Frantic saving, in the face of a feared recession, on the other hand, may be viewed as the situation that obviously attaches the word paradox to thrift."

Fair enough, but how is this criticism? it is basically an admission that the paradox of thrift is real, but rare.

If currency is hoarded (such as placed under one's mattress) and not converted into profitable investments (such as placed in a bank), a "savings" induced recession may occur. Hoarding currency, however, is a far cry from saving money. [4] A problem with this oversimplified understanding of "hoarding" is that it fails to grasp that hoarding can occur by deposit institutions as well, when interest rates are at a zero lower bound (or near it) and savings still exceed investment demand. Moreover, the paradox assumes a closed economy in which savings are not be invested abroad (to fund exports of local production abroad). If participants in the closed economy are producing an ever greater amount than is being consumed, leading to increased savings, this can be offset by trading partners consuming a greater amount relative to their own production. Ultimately the planet is a closed economy and the paradox will hold for World GDP, but deviations are permitted at the local and national economic level.

The paradox of thrift is not about hoarding and yes, the paradox assumes a closed economy. Obviously extra savings can be exported to trading partners in need of capital.Savings represent funds that can be lent out. So higher savings will lower inter- est rates (to clear the market for loans) and stimulate borrowing, thus increasing investment. But when interest rates are already very low, e.g. close to or equal to zero (liquidity trap), then interest rates can fall no further and thus there is no way additional savings can stimulate additional borrowing/investment. The paradox assumes a closed economy in which savings are not invested abroad (to fund exports of local production abroad), or at least that   do not respond (if assuming an open economy). Thus, while the paradox may hold at the global level, it need not hold at the local or national level: if one nation increases savings, this can be offset by trading partners consuming a greater amount relative to their own production "The supposed 'paradox' of savings was attacked by Austrian economist Friedrich Hayek in a 1929 article, 'The 'Paradox' of Savings', attacking the paradox as proposed by Foster and Catchings.[5]"

The reference is probably junk. If it isn't, could somebody summarize the argument?

-- Here is a summary of the argument, both from Foster & Catchings and Hayek's response: http://mises.org/daily/2804 References are given in the article. I would strongly support expanding the criticism section (especially the Hayek response) since, at least in my opinion, he clearly proves the errors of this "paradox", and as of now, the article is presenting the paradox as fact... -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.69.10.1 (talk) 11:49, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Deflation
It is agreed by all that (in some circumstances) an increase in total savings will lead to deflation (falling prices).

Keynesians point out that, because of price stickiness, deflation can wreak havoc on an economy. I.e. economic contraction, lowered productivity and lowered wealth. Also, price discovery is not free. It is hard, imperfect and it has costs, even if prices were not sticky. People are not totally rational and have limited knowledge. And changes in prices, wages especially, will affect their consumption patterns. I.e. a wage cut of 10% might cause them to cut spending by 30%.

Those who attempt to criticize the paradox of thrift by pointing to deflation do not address these issues. They implicitly assume that deflation can occur without any negative effects on the economy.

But moreover, they have not really argued against the paradox of thrift. The argument is that, as an effect of the deflation, consumers will be enticed to spend more and save less. Basically, the argument boils down to "the market will thwart any attempt to increase total saving beyond its natural level of total investment". And that is simply restating the paradox of thrift.

This argument is made twice. I propose to mention it once and include the rebuttal.

"First, if demand slackens, prices will fall (barring government intervention), and the resulting lower price will stimulate demand (though at lower profit or cost – possibly even lower wages)."

Austrian economists agree that if a population saves more money, total revenues for companies will decline, but they deny the assertion that lower revenues lead to lower economic growth. Austrians believe the productivity of the economy is determined by the consumption-investment ratio, and the demand for money only tells us the degree to which people prefer the utility of money (protection against uncertainty) to the utility of goods. They argue that hoarding of money (an increase in the demand for money) does not necessarily lead to a change in the population's consumption-investment ratio.[6] In other words, suppose the demand for money increased to the point that the level of spending in the economy fell by half. If the remaining spending is still divided into the old consumption-investment ratio, then all prices would simply fall by half and productivity would remain unchanged.

Especially ignorant is this sentence: "If the remaining spending is still divided into the old consumption-investment ratio". Obviously, if that is the case, then total saving has not been increased. Hence this is not an argument against the paradox of thrift.

The paradox of thrift is that a population can not endlessly increase saving/investment while reducing consumption. Eventually you reach a point where a further decline in consumption leads to less demand for investment. Total savings can not be increased beyond that point. Any attempt to do so will backfire: a recession or depression.

Possible need for a Neo-classical view
This paradox seems to be one of many points of contention between the Keyesians and the Neo-Classical economists. The latter take the more traditional view that thrift is good for the economy since it makes available more loanable funds for investment. I **believe** (but do not know with certainty) that in the scenario of an economy at full-employment, the Neo-Classical view has more empirical support. If anyone out there could present the Neo-classical argument from a reliable source (ie: from someone from the Chicago School), the result could be a more balanced article. As it is, the article is "good enough" since the paradox was placed in the context of less than full employment. Hope this makes sense. Vonkje 17:19, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I can't help you there. Leonardo 2 July 2005 05:06 (UTC)
 * " I **believe** (but do not know with certainty) that in the scenario of an economy at full-employment, the Neo-Classical view has more empirical support." No. Neoclassical economics predicts higher GDP Growth in the US from 1920-1932 than from 1933-1945.  In fact, this has been the purest test for Neoclassical economics in the US.  Total GDP growth 1920-1932 was under 10% whereas total GDP growth 1933-1945 was in the neighborhood of 190% per the Bureau of Labor.  With respect to "full employment" under neoclassical economics, that has never happened except when bubbles were able to grow faster than the real economy shrank.  The only two "Free Market" presidents of the last century to leave unemployment lower than they found it were Calvin Coolidge, who led into the big Herbert Hoover Crash and Ronald Reagan, who led into the George Bush Sr. Crash.  The historical record is that the economy tends to move toward full employment under protectionist and labor-friendly administrations and away from full employment under "business-friendly" administrations.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.90.204.42 (talk) 17:48, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Vonkje, you have to take into account that Keynesians believe that without demand for goods, there is no demand for production, and therefore no demand for investment either, so there being more "loanable funds" is not a good thing in itself. Whether there is a straightforward connection between individual savings and increased loanable funds is another question. James James 02:08, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

We should remind people that this paradox was observed during the great depression- a fact that undermines some of the criticism... mousomer 20:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Vonkje, the entire Keynesian position is predicated on a macroeconomic disequilibrium. Keynesianism assumes this to be the norm because macroeconomic equilbrium (and hence full employment of factors) occurs when aggregate investment and savings are equal. However, Keynes maintained that the two were determined by different factors - aggregate savings is determined the proposenity to save of the populace at the given level of income, while aggregate investment is determined by the confidence of capitalists, who would invest according to their 'expectations' of a return. Keynes argued that nothing united the two factors, and so there was no reason to expect they would move in synchrony.

In this context, if the savings rate increases (assuming the distribution of incomes remains constant) there is no reason to expect a feedback into a higher investment rate, as this is determined by a separate force. In fact, as the higher savings implies depressed consumption (at fixed income distribution), it would not be unexpected that markets for final products would weaken, thus lowering the confidence, and hence desire to invest, of capitalists. In short, this model suggests that raising savings may even lower investment, causing the two to move away from each other, hence otu of equilibrium and therefore leading to unemployment (Kalecki demonstrated a similar result from cutting wages - that a downward spiral of both incomes and prices would result).

The rebuttal from the neoclassical view is that more savings means a higher money supply in the credit system, which means lower interest rates which counterbalances the loss of final goods markets from the extra savings. In short, this argues that while markets spoil, acting as a disincentive to investment, lower interest rates re-invigorate investment so as to balance out the effect. The result is that movements in the savings rate cannot affect growth at all (which is a result of the Solow-Samuelson growth model).

Of course, whose side you're on depends on your opinion of the interest rate. If you feel that it moves to equilbriate savings and investment, then the neoclassicals are right and the paradox collapses. However, if you believe the interest rate is the result of liquidity preference (i.e. the desire to hold fixed or monetary assets), which implies again that the 'confidence' of capitalists determines the interest rate, thus denying its equilibriating capacities, then you are likely to side with the Keynesians.

--GJaxon (talk) 10:37, 7 January 2009 (UTC): And then there's the Austrian perspective that some kind contributor referenced, which explains that free market interest rates guide savings to the best yielding investment sectors; this paradox is an illusion that arises when one ignores the duration of these savings. Eventually they're spent - once doing so puts the saved income to its highest use. While saved, the funds become available to the producers of the future goods whose consumption was delayed. In this view, savings arise from consumers shifting their capital structure and act as a buffer while the structure of production capital shifts to meet the new preferences.

Error?
"then aggregate demand will fall and will in turn lower total savings in the population."

Shouldn't it be increase savings? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericg33 (talk • contribs) 21:00, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

 * No, that is why it is the paradox of thrift. Any attempt to increase savings beyond a certain point will lead to economic contraction: unemployment, bankruptcy, etc. Wealth, and thus the value of the total savings, decreases. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.254.77.250 (talk) 23:41, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Our anonymous writer, 92.254.77.250, is wrong. Keynes envisioned a short term paradox with a short term solution, on the order of 6 months to a year. In the short term, that is in the margin, rapid rises in savings rates cause an immediate drop in demand, but in the longer run a high savings rate provides cheap investment capital which is used to increase productivity and decreases the cost of production per unit. Some have chosen to imply that there exists a long term paradox of savings but there is little evidence or reason to think the paradox is anything but a short term effect. What is often perceived as a long term paradox of savings is actually a manifestation of the propensity of governments to tax away that which the government thinks the people don't really need. Those so taxed, of course, are not on the list of favored insiders —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angloguy (talk • contribs) 12:28, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Spontaneous comment about the above paragraph: This comment, above, about the short term focus of when the paradox is applicable to real economies, seems to me to be something important that certainly should be mentioned in the article (if true).

In addition: common sense (perhaps infused with some economic literacy) seems to indicate that much, if not most, criticisms of the paradox are likely to revolve around the issue of applicability to real economic situations of the underlying assumption of the paradox: "Assuming that saving rises faster as a function of income than the relationship between investment and output". But I see no clear mention of this in the criticism pages. Do Hayek and pals of the Austrian school really not discuss this?!

Further addition: why is there no mention of the fact that the price of money, interest rates, is not set by markets but manipulated by central banks in most economies? That seems to me to likely have a rather large impact on the underlying argument of the paradox regarding the relation between savings and the observed propensity to invest. Surely someone must have written about this?

/Marcus Linder

Bible quote
This is really intriguing: "There is that scattereth, and yet increaseth; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty. The liberal soul shall be made fat: and he that watereth shall be watered also himself."

- Proverbs 11:24–25

But until there's economic commentary mentioning it, or biblical scholarship specifically indicating the parallels to the economic issue, I don't think it should be in the article. I've removed it, though I would be delighted to see it restored with appropriate context added. Yakushima (talk) 14:57, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Hi Yakushima,
 * Thanks for thoughtfully raising this on the talk page!
 * The quote in question is the lead to the article
 * Nash, Robert T.; Gramm, William P. (1969). “A Neglected Early Statement the Paradox of Thrift”. History of Political Economy 1 (2): 395–400
 * and is visible in the free preview. The article was cited right before the quote “similar sentiments date to antiquity”, but not cited for the quote itself, which is probably a bit unclear citation style.
 * The article is an economics article on predecessors to the Keynesian statement of the paradox of thrift – this is what you’re looking for, right?
 * I could re-add the quote and put the ref right on the quote (citing the page too, if that helps); would changing the wording help? (Existing wording was perhaps a bit abrupt.) If you want to have a shot at fixing the wording, please go ahead, otherwise would just making the ref clearer work?
 * —Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 17:22, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I overlooked the biblical epigram quote in the Nash&Gramm paper; however, at least at the beginning of their paper, it's only one verse, not the two you use. I trimmed out the second verse (even though it's probably equally relevant), and tucked the first one into the footnote for Nash&Grammm.  If you can think of a way to smoothly integrate it into the main text, be my guest.  But if Nash & Gramm couldn't do it themselves (I don't know -- I can't see the rest of their paper), we might not be able to do it either. What you'd really need, I think, is a bible scholar making a direct link to economic theory or policy.  Yakushima (talk) 06:12, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Some other epigrammatic uses of it in an econ context:, among others.  However, the theological sources I'm seeing so far seem to restrict the sense of "scattering" to individual acts of charity or public-spirited behavior, with the benefactor gaining spiritually rather than materially.  There may yet be something here, though, related to distribution of tithes.  I've personally speculated that New Deal architect Marriner Eccles was converted to the Keynesian view (even prior to direct exposure to it) when he realized that Utah, as a virtual Mormon economy, couldn't rescue itself with its own expenditures from (ever-declining) tithes because it was too strongly coupled to the U.S. economy and in any case had no fiat money of its own for deficit spending.  Rather, something like the Mormon system had to be nationalized, and somehow without converting the rest of the country to Mormonism. This is just my own theory, though.  Perhaps someone can trace the influence of this Bible verse through to him.  But without violating WP:SYNTH or WP:NOR?  I don't think so.  From looking at his public papers at Google book search, it appears he avoided saying anything religious about fiscal or monetary policy.  Perhaps this was wise of him.  Mormonism was considered more cultish in the 1930s than it is now.  Even if he did have some judeo-christian rationale for the morality of stimulus spending, he might have felt it politically prudent to avoid drawing attention to his own faith. Yakushima (talk) 06:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Great researching – thanks!
 * In the second source, English, Irish and Subversives Among the Dismal Scientists, by Noel Thompson, Nigel Allington, p. 122, the full quote is:
 * A suggestion that a more equal distribution of income might be a remedy for general stagnation – and that excess saving can be harmful – is implicit in the quotation from the Old Testament on the Reply to Mr. Say [by John Cazenove (1788–1879)] [then quotes verse, first line]
 * …which seems to be what we’re looking for – a scholar explicitly linking the epigrammatic use of the proverb to the paradox of thrift. So I don’t think we’re violating OR or SYNTH if we say something like:
 * Similar sentiments are implicit in the Bible verse [first line only, either as block quote or inline], which found occasional use as an epigram in underconsumptionist writings. (reference “Neglected early statement“, “Reply to Mr. Say”, “Studies” (your first reference) and Thompson & Allington)
 * As you note, it hasn’t been strongly linked – there’s pretty little overlap between academic economics and theology these days, as far as I can tell (there have been schools of Catholic economics and social justice, but they’ve been more involved in political & social issues than in theoretical or academic economics), so I don’t think we should make a big deal of this, but just note its occasional use.
 * I’ll have a shot at working it in a little more cleanly and with better referencing; thanks for the
 * —Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 12:52, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Done – as of this revision I’ve edited the History section as outlined above – hope it looks ok!
 * —Nils von Barth (nbarth) (talk) 14:16, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Very difficult to read
I'm a member of the laity who takes more than a passing interest in monetary matters - but I found this article completely opaque. Could someone perhaps add a numerical example? (e.g. "Alice and Bob are the only two consumers, both with savings of £50 which, when combined, represents [e.g. 33%] of cash in the economy. Alice decides to increase her savings from £50 to £100 and correspondingly [SOMETHING], gaining advantage over Bob.  However, if Bob decides to increase his savings from £50 to £100 as well [SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS] and both Alice and Bob are disadvantaged.".  Without such an example, I can't really follow what on earth the article is trying to say.  7daysahead (talk) 10:26, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

 * I agree; found the overview paragraph incomprehensile (it is a sure sign of writing down when you see words like equilibrium or cetus paribu)

I don't know if the example by daysahead is the rigth way to do ti, but the current paragraph is not good. I have a PhD in moleuclar biology, and I know how hard it is to think simply sometimes; but please, give it a try (and loose the equilibrium) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.51.31 (talk) 00:28, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've tried to translate bits into plain English, but really, it's a pity an article on such an important subject, one which is debated daily in Congresses and Parliaments, should not be written comprehensibly.Straw Cat (talk) 11:54, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Where is the Keynesian/ NeoKeynesian critique of the critiques?
While not being an economist or economics trained myself, I can't believe that Keynesian responses to mentioned criticism's of this Keynes argument are not available. Surely it is better for the page to refer to how the Austrian school and other criticisms are responded to by Keynesians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.77.185 (talk) 22:15, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Overview Misleading
The overview makes it seem like the paradox is critical of savings in general. That is incorrect. It is only savings in excess of intended investment that is held to be bad. All the rest of savings is good.

Paradox of thrift is a broken banking system
In a coin-based monetary system, demand for savings = demand for coins = demand for metal intrinsic in those coins. Paradox of thrift is not some obtuse law of economic nature. Rather it is a consequence of a)a policy choice to base the monetary system on something of no intrinsic value (eg bank/debt based money) and b)a conscious choice to avoid mentioning/analyzing why that sort of system breaks down (fraud, bank balance sheet mismanagement, etc) and to instead create a "paradox" that can be scapegoated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.134.196.115 (talk) 02:30, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

- Sorry but you are unconvincing. There is not much "intrinsic" value in metal coins. It is true that, at the margin, people might prefer gold to a shaky fiat currency. But if you were in the middle of the desert with a bag of gold, you would be better served if,instead, you had a jug of water, a GPS, or a helicopter. If you are not satisfied with that explanation, then consider that metal coins were debased just as badly as fiat money during Roman Times, or how India wound up with much (if not most) of the world's gold after the collapse of Rome, and yet remained a "third world" country for most of history. My point is, money is just a placeholder, the important things are the useful assets. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.79.80.75 (talk) 23:41, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

"sticky wages"
From the article: "This criticism in turn has been questioned by Keynesian economists, who reject Say's law and instead point to evidence of sticky prices as a reason why prices do not fall in recession; this remains a debated point."

This criticism could be question because sticky wages provide a counter-example. The underlying problem with the criticism, though, is that it has never presented a quantitative mechanism for describing how much labor prices would fall compared with revenue levels nor any explanation as to why these two should fall at exactly the same rate. Further, they have never provided a time in history where their advice was ignored and the economy suffered. The closest I have seen is an argument that government meddling was why we were "so slow to recover from the Great Depression", however when you check the numbers, that is the only time in modern history when the US grew their GDP by 10% a year. I have read several such works and the only proof provided is proof by repeated assertion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.90.204.42 (talk) 17:58, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Flipping it around
I don't claim to be an expert in any way on Keynesian economics, but I do hear this paradox used by many mainstream economists and tv personalities on many business channels. They always say "If you know what you want to buy will be cheaper later, you will wait to buy it." This is clearly a statement used for buyers, during deflation.

But that always makes me think, what about sellers, during inflation? Could one not logically flip this paradox around and ask "If you know you could sell something for more later, you will wait to sell it?"

The paradox of thrift just contradicts itself in the end when you flip it around. It seems to be an excuse for purposeful inflation more than a real paradox when you think about it logically.

Chistiandoublezero (talk) 17:01, 19 November 2014 (UTC)Chris

Misapplication of Keynes by current policy makers: Scamjob?
I can understand the paradox of thrift in the case where I spend an extra $50 per month, and in return for that extra expenditure I get more goods and services (let's say more salmon meals instead of chicken wings). That is an example of increasing economic activity (I am getting better food, and that allows me to be more productive). But it seems to me that current economic policy just wants to focus on rising prices. In other words, if I am forced to spend the extra money just to keep the same level of goods and services as before, then there is not really increased economic activity (I am not buying anything extra for that money). All it means is that I am being impoverished, and Keynes is being used as a smokescreen by those who benefit from such an arrangement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.79.80.75 (talk) 23:27, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Koo, balance sheet recession
In Section "Related Concepts" should be mentioned Richard Koo balance sheet recession which is similar to debt deflation by another name.

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Venus and the Razorblades

Venus and the Razorblades were a short-lived punk rock band from Los Angeles, California, formed and managed by Kim Fowley after his initial separation with The Runaways in 1976. They are believed to be one of the first mixed-gender American punk bands.

Rock impresario Kim Fowley first severed ties with the Runaways in September 1976, and then reconciled with the band in November, returning to the studio to record their second album Queens of Noise. It was during this period of inactivity that Fowley assembled Venus and the Razorblades. Fowley intended the band to be a mixed-gender group in the vein of "Fleetwood Mac or ABBA," and touted the band as "Kiss and Aerosmith meet ABBA" in his initial promo for the band. The band's name was initially intended for the Runaways, but the name went unused because no one in the group could decide which member would be "Venus."

The band's lineup included guitarist/singer Roni Lee (born Rhonda Lee Ryckman); guitarist/singer Steven T. (Tetsch); bassist Danielle Faye (formerly of Atomic Kid and later The Zippers); drummer Nickey Beat (later of The Weirdos and the Germs) (soon replaced by Kyle Raven); and singers Dyan Diamond and Vicki Razorblade (born Vicki Arnold). When the band formed, Diamond and Razorblade were only 14 and 17 years old respectively.

Venus and the Razorblades played their first shows at the Starwood November 3–4. The band performed with Fowley's band The Quick at a series of shows entitled "Kim Fowley presents Punk Rock" at the Whisky a Go Go November 25–28. This was followed by a December 2 show featuring Venus and the Razorblades headlining and the band Shock opening, and a series of shows with Venus and the Razorblades opening for Van Halen December 3–5, all at the Whisky a Go Go.

In February 1977, the Runaways opted to record two of Venus and the Razorblades' songs, "Alright You Guys" and "I Wanna Be Where the Boys Are." Both songs ended up on the Runaways LP Live in Japan (1977). Cherie Currie recorded "Young and Wild" for her LP Beauty's Only Skin Deep (1977) and Van Halen recorded a demo of "Young and Wild" with producer Ted Templeman. The band also worked with Bomp Records on the release of a single entitled "Punk-a-Rama," whose B-side contained an excerpt of a press conference featuring the band, Fowley and Rodney Bingenheimer.

Island Records expressed interest in the band and brought the band into the studio to record, but opted not to release the final album upon its completion. Bob Ezrin was then brought in to produce for the band, and the group was accepted by Atlantic Records, but no final product was released.

Inner tensions led to the group disbanding in 1977. A posthumous compilation album entitled Songs from the Sunshine Jungle was released in July 1978 on Visa Records.

After Venus and the Razorblades disbanded, Fowley tried to make Dyan Diamond a star and got a deal for her with MCA Records; her 1978 album, In the Dark was a commercial failure. Roni Lee collaborated and performed with Randy California and Ed Cassidy of Spirit, as well as Mars Bonfire and Jerry Edmonton of Steppenwolf, in 1977-78. In 2004 a follow-up album release on CD, "More Songs From The Sunshine Jungle" was issued on Charlatan Records. In 2013, Lee was granted an endorsement with Paul Reed Smith guitars for her distinctive style of playing as well as her place in punk rock's early history. Lee released the album Heros of Sunset Blvd. in 2016.

The Woman's International Music Network, founded by Laura B. Whitmore, gives credit to Venus and the Razorblades, as well as the Runaways, for performing in a genre that was dominated mostly by men.

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title: Venus and the Razorblades


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The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

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Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 10:13, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Again~enwiki


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Solutions of the Einstein field equations

Solutions of the Einstein field equations are metrics of spacetimes that result from solving the Einstein field equations (EFE) of general relativity. Solving the field equations gives a Lorentz manifold. Solutions are broadly classed as exact or non-exact.

The Einstein field equations are

 * $$G_{\mu\nu} + \Lambda g_{\mu\nu} \, = \kappa T_{\mu\nu} ,$$

where $$G_{\mu\nu}$$ is the Einstein tensor, $$\Lambda$$ is the cosmological constant (sometimes taken to be zero for simplicity), $$g_{\mu\nu}$$ is the metric tensor, $$\kappa$$ is a constant, and $$ T_{\mu\nu} $$ is the stress–energy tensor.

The Einstein field equations relate the Einstein tensor to the stress–energy tensor, which represents the distribution of energy, momentum and stress in the spacetime manifold. The Einstein tensor is built up from the metric tensor and its partial derivatives; thus, given the stress–energy tensor, the Einstein field equations are a system of ten partial differential equations in which the metric tensor can be solved for.
 * Where appropriate, this article will use the abstract index notation.

Solving the equations
It is important to realize that the Einstein field equations alone are not enough to determine the evolution of a gravitational system in many cases. They depend on the stress–energy tensor, which depends on the dynamics of matter and energy (such as trajectories of moving particles), which in turn depends on the gravitational field. If one is only interested in the weak field limit of the theory, the dynamics of matter can be computed using special relativity methods and/or Newtonian laws of gravity and then the resulting stress–energy tensor can be plugged into the Einstein field equations. But if the exact solution is required or a solution describing strong fields, the evolution of the metric and the stress–energy tensor must be solved for together.

To obtain solutions, the relevant equations are the above quoted EFE (in either form) plus the continuity equation (to determine evolution of the stress–energy tensor):
 * $$T^{ab}{}_{;b} \, = 0 \,.$$

This is clearly not enough, as there are only 14 equations (10 from the field equations and 4 from the continuity equation) for 20 unknowns (10 metric components and 10 stress–energy tensor components). Equations of state are missing. In the most general case, it's easy to see that at least 6 more equations are required, possibly more if there are internal degrees of freedom (such as temperature) which may vary throughout spacetime.

In practice, it is usually possible to simplify the problem by replacing the full set of equations of state with a simple approximation. Some common approximations are:

 * Vacuum:
 * $$T_{ab} \, = 0$$

 * Perfect fluid:
 * $$T_{ab} \, = (\rho + p)u_a u_b + p g_{ab}$$ where $$u^au_a = -1$$

Here $$\rho$$ is the mass–energy density measured in a momentary co-moving frame, $$u_a$$ is the fluid's 4-velocity vector field, and $$p$$ is the pressure.

 * Non-interacting dust ( a special case of perfect fluid ):
 * $$T_{ab} \, = \rho u_a u_b$$

For a perfect fluid, another equation of state relating density $$\rho$$ and pressure $$p$$ must be added. This equation will often depend on temperature, so a heat transfer equation is required or the postulate that heat transfer can be neglected.

Next, notice that only 10 of the original 14 equations are independent, because the continuity equation $$T^{ab}{}_{;b} = 0$$ is a consequence of Einstein's equations. This reflects the fact that the system is gauge invariant (in general, absent some symmetry, any choice of a curvilinear coordinate net on the same system would correspond to a numerically different solution.) A "gauge fixing" is needed, i.e. we need to impose 4 (arbitrary) constraints on the coordinate system in order to obtain unequivocal results. These constraints are known as coordinate conditions.

A popular choice of gauge is the so-called "De Donder gauge", also known as the harmonic condition or harmonic gauge
 * $$g^{\mu\nu} \Gamma^{\sigma}{}_{\mu\nu} = 0 \,.$$

In numerical relativity, the preferred gauge is the so-called "3+1 decomposition", based on the ADM formalism. In this decomposition, metric is written in the form
 * $$ ds^2 \, = (-N + N^i N^j \gamma_{ij}) dt^2 + 2N^i \gamma_{ij} dt dx^j + \gamma_{ij} dx^i dx^j$$, where $$ i,j = 1\dots 3 \,.$$

$$N$$ and $$N^i$$ are functions of spacetime coordinates and can be chosen arbitrarily in each point. The remaining physical degrees of freedom are contained in $$\gamma_{ij}$$, which represents the Riemannian metric on 3-hypersurfaces with constant $$t$$. For example, a naive choice of $$N=1$$, $$N_i=0$$, would correspond to a so-called synchronous coordinate system: one where t-coordinate coincides with proper time for any comoving observer (particle that moves along a fixed $$x^i$$ trajectory.)

Once equations of state are chosen and the gauge is fixed, the complete set of equations can be solved. Unfortunately, even in the simplest case of gravitational field in the vacuum (vanishing stress–energy tensor), the problem is too complex to be exactly solvable. To get physical results, we can either turn to numerical methods, try to find exact solutions by imposing symmetries, or try middle-ground approaches such as perturbation methods or linear approximations of the Einstein tensor.

Exact solutions
Exact solutions are Lorentz metrics that are conformable to a physically realistic stress–energy tensor and which are obtained by solving the EFE exactly in closed form.

External reference
Scholarpedia article on the subject written by Malcolm MacCallum

Non-exact solutions
The solutions that are not exact are called non-exact solutions. Such solutions mainly arise due to the difficulty of solving the EFE in closed form and often take the form of approximations to ideal systems. Many non-exact solutions may be devoid of physical content, but serve as useful counterexamples to theoretical conjectures.

Applications
There are practical as well as theoretical reasons for studying solutions of the Einstein field equations.

From a purely mathematical viewpoint, it is interesting to know the set of solutions of the Einstein field equations. Some of these solutions are parametrised by one or more parameters. From a physical standpoint, knowing the solutions of the Einstein Field Equations allows highly-precise modelling of astrophysical phenomena, including black holes, neutron stars, and stellar systems. Predictions can be made analytically about the system analyzed; such predictions include the perihelion precession of Mercury, the existence of a co-rotating region inside spinning black holes, and the orbits of objects around massive bodies.


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User talk:Arrowdu

Welcome
Hello , and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on Talk page. Again, welcome! You 17:23, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Editing tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style

Image Sources
Hi, I was wondering where you got the following images. When you upload images you have to cite the source because you may or may not have permission to use them.

 * Image:Debosch1865.jpg
 * Image:132px-Hertoge3-1--1-.jpg
 * Image:Stadhuisdenbosch.jpg
 * Image:Sintcatharien.jpg
 * Image:Hertoge3-1-.jpg
 * Image:Denbosch-moriaan.jpg
 * Image:Bastoranje.jpg
 * Image:Heusden.jpg
 * Image:Arcims imagedenbosch.jpg

Also, image captions don't have to have links such as "'s-Hertogenbosch 1865" doesn't have to be 's-Hertogenbosch 1865. --Hottentot

Untagged image
An image you uploaded, Image:WapenFlevoland.gif, was tagged with the coatofarms copyright tag. This tag was deleted because it does not actually specify the copyright status of the image. The image may need a more accurate copyright tag, or it may need to be deleted. If the image portrays a seal or emblem, it should be tagged as seal. If you have any questions, ask them at Media copyright questions. -- 14:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Catharinakerkdenbosch.jpg
Thank you for uploading Image:Catharinakerkdenbosch.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. MER-C 11:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:Arrowdu


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bifta

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. — Xezbeth 07:26, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Bifta
Delete nonnotable dicdef, and WP:WIN official policy drini ☎ 17:24, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Slang dicdef. Not encyclopedic. Sjakkalle (Check!)  10:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bifta


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User talk:Haddocky

Welcome
Hello , and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on Talk page. Again, welcome! You 17:25, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Editing tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style

The Image Bank
I've redirected the page to Getty Images for now. If you want to develop the article with sources etc, the last version of the page can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Image_Bank&action=history .--Robdurbar 16:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a shame because The Image Bank's role in the stock photography business was very important. The fact that it's badly documented on the internet is no reason to assume it's of no importance. Far better would be to allow time for The Image Bank article to be beefed up a bit... Haddocky 17:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Haddocky


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Prothesis

Prothesis may refer to:
 * Liturgy of Preparation, also known as Prothesis
 * Prothesis (altar)
 * Prothesis (linguistics)
 * A form of the custom of lying in repose in Ancient Greece; see Ancient Greek funeral and burial practices

title: Prothesis


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User:Ira~enwiki

Ira Glickstein, PhD is an Adjunct Associate Professor at the University of Maryland University College, teaching an online graduate course in Systems Engineering. He also teaches a course in "Life, Intelligence and Human Imagination" at The Villages Lifelong Learning College, The Villages, FL.

His PhD (Binghamton University, 1996) is in System Science (Hierarchy Theory and Optimal Span). He has an MS in System Science (Binghamton University, 1989), held a Professional Engineering License (NY, 1964), and has a Bachelors in Electrical Engineering (City College of New York 1961).

He retired in 2001 from the IBM/Lockheed Martin facility in Owego, NY where he did research and development and new business engineering for advanced Avionics Systems. He is a co-inventor of several US Patents in the area of Artificial Intelligence. Prior to and since retirement as a Systems Engineer, he taught graduate and undergraduate Engineering courses at Binghamton University as well as a course in "Artificial Intelligence and Artificial Life" at Brandeis University Summer Odyssey.

As of 2005, he lives with his wife, Vi, in The Villages, a large active retirement community in Central Florida, where he is a member of several clubs including: Bicycle, Canoe/Kayak, and Philosophy. Vi is a retired Software Engineer who teaches an online graduate course in Software Engineering at the University of Maryland University College. They have three daughters and triplet granddaughters. They enjoy water aerobics, square dancing, and traveling together.

title: User:Ira~enwiki


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La folie (album)

La folie is the sixth studio album by English new wave band the Stranglers. It was released on 9 November 1981, through the EMI record label Liberty.

Background
The Stranglers had initially been the most commercially successful band of the punk/new wave period in Britain, but by 1981, their success had waned noticeably. La folie was a conscious attempt to deliver a more commercial product. It is co-produced by the band with engineer Steve Churchyard and mixed by Tony Visconti. The band's record company, EMI, gave Visconti a brief to mix each song as a potential single.

The album's French language title literally translates to "madness". In various interviews, the band related that this referred to "The Madness of Love" and that conceptually, each of the songs on the album was intended to explore a different kind or aspect of "love". The title track is based upon the story of Issei Sagawa. Guitarist Hugh Cornwell related in his 2001 book The Stranglers – Song by Song that the correct title of the album's opening track was "Non Stop Nun", and he apparently had been unaware that the record company had printed it as simply "Non Stop".

The lyrics to "Ain't Nothin' to It" are credited to American jazz clarinetist and saxophonist Mezz Mezzrow. The band compiled expressions from Mezzrow's autobiography Really the Blues, which contains many passages of jive talk, and used them for the lyrics of the song.

There has been much controversy surrounding the lyrics to "Golden Brown". In The Stranglers – Song by Song, Cornwell states, ""Golden Brown" works on two levels. It's about heroin and also about a girl". Essentially, the lyrics describe how "both provided me with pleasurable times".

Release and reception
La folie was preceded by the release of the album's first single, "Let Me Introduce You to the Family", released on 7 November 1981 and reaching No. 42 in the UK Singles Chart. La folie was released two days later.

Upon its release, La folie looked set to be the band's lowest-charting album, but, buoyed by the success of the album's second single, "Golden Brown", released 10 January 1982 and reaching No. 2 in the singles chart, the album eventually peaked at No. 11 in the UK Albums Chart, spending eighteen weeks in the chart. The single would go on to become EMI's highest-selling single for many years. One more single was released from the album, the album's title track "La folie", on 20 April 1982, which reached No. 47.

Trouser Press wrote of the album: "Subtle, effective, mature and energetic – but no outstanding songs." AllMusic called it a fine and welcome album in the Stranglers' body of work, describing it as "mainly a collection of tight, punchy songs that often suggest the forthright approach of American new wave bands."

Track listing
All tracks are written and arranged by the Stranglers (Hugh Cornwell, Jean-Jacques Burnel, Dave Greenfield and Jet Black), except where noted.

 * "Cocktail Nubiles" is a loungey version of "Bring on the Nubiles" from No More Heroes, using the music from the Frank Sinatra pop standard "Young at Heart". It was recorded during sessions for The Gospel According to the Meninblack in 1980. "Cocktail Nubiles" was released on the exclusive fan club release "Tomorrow Was the Hereafter".
 * Originally released on the 1980 compilation album IV (US and Canada only).

 * Originally from The Gospel According to the Meninblack.

2018 expanded vinyl edition
Self-released by the Stranglers, La folie received a deluxe vinyl reissue in 2018, limited to 1000 numbered copies. The original 11-track album is coupled with a bonus 12-track album, entitled Extra Texture, the first side of which features non-album single "Strange Little Girl", associated B-sides, a radio edit, a demo, and a BBC radio session track. The second side collects 6 La folie tracks recorded live by the BBC on the La folie tour at the Hammersmith Odeon in London on 8 February 1982.

 * Side one and two as per original vinyl edition
 * Extra Texture

 * First transmitted on 11 February 1982 on the David Jensen Evening Show.
 * Live at Hammersmith Odeon

Personnel
The Stranglers
 * Hugh Cornwell – guitar, lead and backing vocals
 * Dave Greenfield – keyboards
 * Jean-Jacques Burnel – bass, backing vocals, lead vocals on "The Man They Love to Hate" and "La folie", co-lead vocals on "It Only Takes Two to Tango"
 * Jet Black – drums, percussion

Technical
 * The Stranglers – producer, cover concept
 * Steve Churchyard – producer, engineer
 * Tony Visconti – mixing
 * Jay Pee – art direction
 * Phil Jude – front cover photography
 * Ava Carrier – back cover photography
 * Shoot That Tiger! – liner sleeve

Bonus tracks
 * Dale Griffin – producer on "The Man They Love to Hate"" (BBC radio session)
 * The Stranglers – producer on "Vietnamerica" and "Waltzinblack"
 * Tony Visconti – producer on "You Hold the Key to My Love in Your Hands"
 * Steve Churchyard – mixing on "Love 30"

title: La folie (album)


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The Quick (American band)

The Quick were a mid-1970s power pop band based in Los Angeles. The Quick were influenced by 1960s British Invasion bands and 1970s British glam bands, as well as by fellow Angelenos Sparks (formerly Halfnelson).

History
In Los Angeles, between the glam and punk eras in the mid-1970s, there were few clubs for local bands to play original music. However, in early 1976 The Quick began playing at the Starwood and on Thanksgiving Weekend 1976 revived the Whisky a Go Go. During its career, The Quick played various club shows supporting such bands as Van Halen, Ramones, The Runaways, and Crack The Sky, in addition to headlining slots. The Quick's most-attended show was an opening slot for Starz at the 3,000-seat Santa Monica Civic Auditorium in 1977.

The Quick released a full-length album, 1976's Mondo Deco on Mercury Records, produced by Kim Fowley and engineered by Earle Mankey, the original guitarist of Sparks (formerly Halfnelson), one of the band's earlier influences. In 2003, various demo recordings were included on the 2003 rarities compilation Untold Rock Stories on Rev-Ola Records in the UK. In March 1978, the band recorded singles produced by established Elektra Records staff arranger David Campbell. Referred to as The Elektra singles, (though the band never signed with Elektra Records) the songs displayed a shift in the band's early proto-punk/punk sound to a more experimental harder-rock approach. A few of the songs were released on 10" and 7" limited edition vinyl via the band's fan club, and all nine tracks were eventually released on Untold Rock Stories.

One of those tracks, "Pretty Please Me", was played frequently by local KROQ-FM DJ Rodney Bingenheimer on his weekly "Rodney On the ROQ" radio show in 1978, but there were no records available to sell. The song was later covered and officially released by both Redd Kross and The Dickies.

In April 1978, the band invited fans to attend its 3rd anniversary show (and vote on the set list) at its Hollywood rehearsal space. It was The Quick's final show, as the group disbanded shortly afterwards.

The Quick have an intertwined history with long running punk rock band the Dickies. Steve Huffsteter, who went to school with Dickies vocalist Leonard Graves Phillips, gave guitar lessons to Dickies axeman Stan Lee. Huffsteter both introduced those two principals to one another, and encouraged their punk rock direction. Members of the Quick, who were dominated in terms of songwriting credits for their own band by Huffsteter, contributed to the Dickies' early canon, including the infamous "Shadow Man." The Dickies would go on to cover Huffsteter's "Pretty Please Me" on Stukas Over Disneyland (1983).

Band members

 * Danny Wilde – lead vocalist, rhythm guitarist
 * Steven Hufsteter – lead guitarist, primary songwriter
 * Billy Bizeau – keyboardist, backing vocalist
 * Ian Ainsworth – bassist, backing vocalist
 * Danny Benair – drummer

Most of The Quick's material was written by guitarist Steven Hufsteter (who would later become a founding member of The Cruzados). He played in Tito & Tarantula with fellow former Cruzado member Tito Larriva. Lead vocalist Danny Wilde and bassist Ian (Grey) Ainsworth formed Great Buildings and released one LP on Columbia Records. Wilde later partnered with Phil Solem as The Rembrandts. They found success with their recording of the Michael Skloff/Allee Willis-co-written song "I'll Be There For You," which was used as the theme song for the TV show Friends

Keyboardist Billy Bizeau would go on to collaborate on writing songs with Kim Fowley (the band's initial manager) for The Runaways.

Drummer Danny Benair played with several other Los Angeles bands, including Flyboys, Choir Invisible, The Falcons, The Weirdos, and The Three O'Clock (formerly Salvation Army) before switching to the behind-the-scenes licensing business and founding a film soundtrack song placement agency, Natural Energy Lab.

One of their early songs, "Guardian Angel", appeared in 1978 on Rhino Records' Saturday Night Pogo new wave compilation LP. To avoid contractual issues, this early recording was credited to "The Young Republicans".

Producer David Campbell is the father of noted alternative musician Beck Hansen.

Benair's girlfriend during much of his tenure in The Quick was Lisa Fancher, who wrote liner notes for The Runaways' debut album, then went on to found the influential independent record label Frontier Records.

Discography

 * Mondo Deco, Mercury SRM 1–1114, USA, 1976, 10 tracks (vinyl LP)
 * Mondo Deco, Mercury RJ-7239, Japan, 1977, 10 tracks (vinyl LP)
 * Mondo Deco, Radio Heartbeat RHB 108, USA, 2009, 10 tracks (vinyl LP)
 * Mondo Deco, Real Gone Music RGM-0718, USA, 2018, 21 tracks (CD) UPC: 848064007180
 * Untold Rock Stories, Rev-Ola Records CR-REV-30, UK, 2003, 22 tracks (CD) UPC: 5013929433021
 * Untold Rock Stories, Burger Records BRGR067, USA, 2020, 22 tracks (red & blue vinyl 2-LP) UPC: 634457709614
 * On Holiday With Earle Mankey, Burger Records BRGR150, USA, 2011, 3 tracks (7" single)
 * "Guardian Angel" (as The Young Republicans) on Saturday Night Pogo – A Collection of Los Angeles New Wave Bands, Rhino Records RNLP 003, USA, 1978, 14 tracks (vinyl LP)
 * "Pretty Please" on D.I.Y.: We're Desperate: The L.A. Scene (1976-79), Rhino Records 71176, USA, 1993, 21 tracks (CD) UPC: 081227117627

title: The Quick (American band)


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Department of Finance (New Brunswick)

The Department of Finance is a part of the Government of New Brunswick. It is charged with New Brunswick's budgetary and tax policy and headed by the finance minister.

The department, or a minister responsible for this area, has existed in one form or another since the creation of New Brunswick as a crown colony in 1784. It has been called Provincial Treasurer and Provincial Secretary-Treasurer in the past.

title: Department of Finance (New Brunswick)


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Panic (MxPx album)

Panic is the seventh studio album by punk rock band MxPx.

Release
On May 5, 2005, Panic was announced for release the following month; alongside, its artwork and track listing was posted online. "Heard That Sound" was released to radio on May 17, 2005. Three days later, "The Darkest Places" was posted on the band's Myspace profile. Panic was made available for streaming on May 30, 2005, before it was released on June 7, 2005 through SideOneDummy Records. It featured the Blink-182/+44 singer-bassist Mark Hoppus on "Wrecking Hotel Rooms". On June 30, 2005, the music video for "Heard That Sound" was posted online, following which they appeared on the 2005 Warped Tour. "Wrecking Hotel Rooms" was released to radio on July 26, 2005. In October and November 2005, they supported Relient K on their headlining US tour. In January 2006, the band went on a co-headlining UK tour with the Starting Line, with support from the Matches and I Am the Avalanche. In March 2006, they went on a Canadian tour, which was followed by a handful of shows in the US and Japan. They then supported Reel Big Fish on their headlining US tour, and appeared at the Lifest and Cornerstone Festival in July 2006.

Personnel

 * Mike Herrera – bass guitar, lead vocals
 * Yuri Ruley – drums, percussion, backing vocals, choir, chorus
 * Tom Wisniewski – guitar, backing vocals, choir, chorus

Additional personnel
 * James Barrett – backing vocals, choir, chorus
 * Patti Day – choir, chorus
 * Mark Hoppus – background vocals on "Wrecking Hotel Rooms"
 * Andy Husted – choir, chorus
 * Robert Lloyd Martin – choir, chorus
 * Jack Parker – guitar, soloist
 * Seth Alan Roberts – backing vocals, layout design

Production
 * Stephen Egerton – producer
 * Gavin MacKillop – producer
 * Mauro Rubbi – engineer
 * Joe Sib – A&R

Chart positions
Album - Billboard (North America)

title: Panic (MxPx album)


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Talk:Panic (MxPx album)

Fair use rationale for Image:MxPx Panic.jpg
Image:MxPx Panic.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Panic (MxPx album)


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Mac OS X Leopard

Mac OS X Leopard (version 10.5) is the sixth major release of macOS, Apple's desktop and server operating system for Macintosh computers. Leopard was released on October 26, 2007 as the successor of Mac OS X Tiger, and is available in two editions: a desktop version suitable for personal computers, and a server version, Mac OS X Server. It retailed for $129 for the desktop version and $499 for Server. Leopard was superseded by Mac OS X Snow Leopard (version 10.6) in 2009. Mac OS X Leopard is the last version of macOS that supports the PowerPC architecture as its successor, Mac OS X Snow Leopard, functions solely on Intel based Macs.

According to Apple, Leopard contains over 300 changes and enhancements compared to its predecessor, Mac OS X Tiger, covering core operating system components as well as included applications and developer tools. Leopard introduces a significantly revised desktop, with a redesigned Dock, Stacks, a semitransparent menu bar, and an updated Finder that incorporates the Cover Flow visual navigation interface first seen in iTunes. Other notable features include support for writing 64-bit graphical user interface applications, an automated backup utility called Time Machine, support for Spotlight searches across multiple machines, and the inclusion of Front Row and Photo Booth, which were previously included with only some Mac models.

Apple missed Leopard's release time frame as originally announced by Apple's CEO Steve Jobs. When first discussed in June 2005, Jobs had stated that Apple intended to release Leopard at the end of 2006 or early 2007. A year later, this was amended to Spring 2007; however, on April 12, 2007, Apple issued a statement that its release would be delayed until October 2007 because of the development of the iPhone.

Mac OS X Leopard is the first version of Mac OS X to run on the MacBook Air.

User interface
Mac OS X Leopard made many changes to the user interface. This includes a more detailed, transparent menu bar, skeuomorphic system icons, and a glossy, reflective, 3D Dock. Windows lost their metallic, lined look they had previously. As well as this, the Apple icon is now black instead of blue. This is notably very similar to IPhone OS 1's user interface. Rory Prior, on the ThinkMac blog, criticized a number of changes to Leopard's user interface, including the transparent menu bar and the new folder icons. Decreased transparency of the menu bar, along with the ability to disable the menu bar transparency were added with the 10.5.2 release on February 11, 2008.

End-user features
Apple advertised that Mac OS X Leopard has 300+ new features, including:
 * A new and improved Automator, with easy starting points to easily start a workflow. It also can quickly create or edit workflows with new interface improvements. Now it can use a new action called "Watch Me Do" that lets users record a user action (like pressing a button or controlling an application without built-in Automator support) and replay as an action in a workflow. It can create more useful Automator workflows with actions for RSS feeds, iSight camera video snapshots, PDF manipulation, and much more.
 * Back to My Mac, a feature for MobileMe users that allows users to access files on their home computer while away from home via the internet.
 * Boot Camp, a software assistant allowing for the installation of other operating systems, such as Windows XP (SP2 or later) or Windows Vista, on a separate partition (or separate internal drive) on Intel-based Macs.
 * Dashboard enhancements, including Web Clip, a feature that allows users to turn a part of any Web page displayed in Safari into a live Dashboard widget, and Dashcode to help developers code widgets.
 * New Desktop, comprises a redesigned 3-D dock with a new grouping feature called Stacks, which displays files in either a "fan" style, "grid" style, or (since 10.5.2) a "list" style. Rory Prior, on the ThinkMac blog, criticized the shelf-like Dock along with a number of other changes to the user interface.
 * Dictionary can now search Wikipedia, and a dictionary of Apple terminology as well. Also included is the Japanese-language dictionary Daijisen, Progressive E-J and Progressive J-E dictionaries, and the 25,000-word thesaurus Tsukaikata no Wakaru Ruigo Reikai Jiten (使い方の分かる類語例解辞典), all of which are provided by the Japanese publisher Shogakukan.
 * A redesigned Finder, with features similar to those seen in iTunes 7, including Cover Flow and a Source list-like sidebar.
 * Front Row has been reworked to closely resemble the interface of the original Apple TV.
 * iCal calendar sharing and group scheduling as well as syncing event invitations from Mail. The icon also reflects the current date even when the application is not running. In previous versions of Mac OS X, the icon would show July 17 in the icon any time the application was not running but the current date when the application was running.
 * iChat enhancements, including multiple logins, invisibility, animated icons, and tabbed chats, similar to features present in Pidgin, Adium and the iChat plugin Chax; iChat Theater, allowing users to incorporate images from iPhoto, presentations from Keynote, videos from QuickTime, and other Quick Look features into video chats; and Backdrops, which are similar to chroma keys, but use a real-time difference matte technique which does not require a green or blue screen. iChat also implements screen sharing, a feature previously available with Apple Remote Desktop.
 * Mail enhancements including the additions of RSS feeds, Stationery, Notes, and to-dos. To-dos use a system-wide service that is available to all applications.
 * Network file sharing improvements include more granular control over permissions, consolidation of AFP, FTP and SMB sharing into one control panel, and the ability to share individual folders, a feature that had not been available since Mac OS 9.
 * Parental controls now include the ability to place restrictions on use of the Internet and to set parental controls from anywhere using remote setup.
 * Photo Booth enhancements, including video recording with real-time filters and blue/green-screen technology.
 * Podcast Capture, an application allowing users to record and distribute podcasts. It requires access to a computer running Mac OS X Server with Podcast Producer.
 * Preview adds support for annotation, graphics, extraction, search, markup, Instant Alpha and size adjustment tools.
 * Quick Look, a framework allowing documents to be viewed without opening them in an external application and can preview it in full screen. Plug-ins are available for Quick Look so that users can also view other files, such as Installer Packages.
 * Safari 3, which includes Web Clip.
 * Spaces, an implementation of virtual desktops (individually called "Spaces"), allows multiple desktops per user, with certain applications and windows in each desktop. Users can organize certain Spaces for certain applications (e.g., one for work-related tasks and one for entertainment) and switch between them. Exposé works inside Spaces, allowing the user to see at a glance all desktops on one screen. ) Users can create and control up to 16 spaces, and applications can be switched between each one, creating a very large workspace. The auto-switching feature in Spaces has annoyed some of its users. Apple added a new preference in 10.5.2 which disabled this feature, but there were still bugs found while switching windows. In 10.5.3, this problem was addressed and was no longer an issue.
 * Spotlight incorporates additional search capabilities such as Boolean operators, as well as the ability to search other computers (with appropriate permissions).
 * Time Machine, an automated backup utility which allows the user to restore files that have been deleted or replaced by another version of a file. Though generally lauded in the press as a step forward for data recovery, Time Machine has been criticized in multiple publications for lacking the capabilities of third-party backup software. Analyzing the feature for TidBITS, Joe Kissell pointed out that Time Machine does not create bootable copies of backed-up volumes, does not back up to AirPort Disk hard drives and will not back up FileVault encrypted home directories until the user logs out, concluding that the feature is "pretty good at what it does" but he will only use it as part of a "broader backup strategy".  One of these issues has been resolved, however; On March 19, 2008, updates were released for AirPort and Time Machine, allowing for Time Machine to use a USB hard disk which has been connected to an AirPort Extreme Base Station.
 * Universal Access enhancements: significant improvements to applications including VoiceOver, along with increased support for Braille, closed captioning and a new high‐quality Speech synthesis voice.
 * Russian language support, bringing the total to 18 languages.
 * Leopard removes support for Classic applications.
 * Introduced the Alex voice to VoiceOver.

Developer technologies

 * Native support by many libraries and frameworks for 64-bit applications, allowing 64-bit Cocoa applications. Existing 32-bit applications using those libraries and frameworks should continue to run without the need for emulation or translation.
 * Leopard offers the Objective-C 2.0 runtime, which includes new features such as garbage collection. Xcode 3.0 supports the updated language and was itself rewritten with it.
 * A new framework, Core Animation, allows a developer to create complex animations while specifying only a "start" and a "goal" space. The main goal of Core Animation is to enable the creation of complex animations with small amounts of program code.
 * Apple integrates DTrace from the OpenSolaris project and adds a graphical interface called Instruments (previously Xray). DTrace provides tools that users, administrators and developers can use to tune the performance of the operating system and the applications that run on it.
 * The new Scripting Bridge allows programmers to use Python 2.5 and Ruby 1.8.6 to interface with the Cocoa frameworks.
 * Ruby on Rails is included in the default install.
 * Leopard’s OpenGL stack has been updated to version 2.1, and uses LLVM to increase its vertex processing speed. Apple has been working to get LLVM integrated into GCC; LLVM’s use within other operating system facilities has not been announced.
 * The Graphics and Media State of the Union address confirmed many other features are possible because of Core Animation, such as live desktops, improvements to Quartz Composer with custom patches, a new PDF Kit for developers, and improvements to QuickTime APIs.
 * The  framework allows applications to register for notifications of changes to a given directory tree.
 * Leopard includes a read-only implementation of the ZFS file system.
 * In mid-December 2006, a pre-release version of Leopard appeared to include support for Sun’s ZFS. Jonathan Schwartz, CEO and President of Sun Microsystems, boasted on June 6, 2007, that ZFS had become "the file system" for Leopard. However, the senior project marketing director for Mac OS X stated on June 11, 2007, that the existing HFS+, not ZFS, would be used in Leopard. Apple later clarified that a read-only version of ZFS would be included.

 * Leopard includes drivers for UDF 2.5, necessary for reading HD DVD and Blu-ray discs using third-party drives, but the included DVD Player software can only play HD DVDs authored by DVD Studio Pro.
 * Leopard includes a framework implementing latent semantic mapping for classifying (e.g. textual) data.
 * Leopard is the first operating system with open source BSD code to be certified as fully UNIX-compliant. Certification means that software following the Single UNIX Specification can be compiled and run on Leopard without the need for any code modification. The certification only applies to Leopard when run on Intel processors.
 * Leopard includes J2SE 5.0.

Security enhancements
New security features intend to provide better internal resiliency to successful attacks, in addition to preventing attacks from being successful in the first place.

 * Library Randomization: Leopard implements library randomization, which randomizes the locations of some libraries in memory. Vulnerabilities that corrupt program memory often rely on known addresses for these library routines, which allow injected code to launch processes or change files. Library randomization is presumably a stepping-stone to a more complete implementation of address space layout randomization at a later date.

 * Application Layer Firewall
 * Leopard ships with two firewall engines: the original BSD IPFW, which was present in earlier releases of Mac OS X, and the new Leopard Application Layer Firewall. Unlike IPFW, which intercepts and filters IP datagrams before the kernel performs significant processing, the Application Layer Firewall operates at the socket layer, bound to individual processes. The Application Layer Firewall can therefore make filtering decisions on a per-application basis. Of the two firewall engines, only the Application Layer Firewall is fully exposed in the Leopard user interface. The new firewall offers less control over individual packet decisions (users can decide to allow or deny connections system-wide or to individual applications, but must use IPFW to set fine-grained TCP/IP header-level policies). It also makes several policy exceptions for system processes: neither mDNSResponder nor programs running with superuser privileges are filtered.

 * Sandboxes: Leopard includes kernel-level support for role-based access control (RBAC). RBAC is intended to prevent, for example, an application like Mail from editing the password database.

 * Application Signing: Leopard provides a framework to use public key signatures for code signing to verify, in some circumstances, that code has not been tampered with. Signatures can also be used to ensure that one program replacing another is truly an "update", and carry any special security privileges across to the new version. This reduces the number of user security prompts, and the likelihood of the user being trained to simply clicking "OK" to everything.

 * Secure Guest Account: Guests can be given access to a Leopard system with an account that the system erases and resets at logout.

Security features in Leopard have been criticized as weak or ineffective, with the publisher Heise Security documenting that the Leopard installer downgraded firewall protection and exposed services to attack even when the firewall was re-enabled. Several researchers noted that the Library Randomization feature added to Leopard was ineffective compared to mature implementations on other platforms, and that the new "secure Guest account" could be abused by Guests to retain access to the system even after the Leopard log out process erased their home directory.

System requirements
Apple states the following basic Leopard system requirements, although, for some specific applications and features (such as iChat backdrops) an Intel processor is required:
 * Processor: any Intel processor, or PowerPC G5 or G4 (867 MHz and faster) processor
 * Optical drive: internal or external DVD drive (for installation of the operating system)
 * Memory: minimum 512 MB of RAM (additional RAM (1 GB) is recommended for development purposes)
 * Hard drive capacity: Minimum 9 GB of disk space available.

Leopard’s retail version was not released in separate versions for each type of processor, but instead consisted of one universal release that could run on both PowerPC and Intel processors. However, the install discs that ship with Intel-based Macs only contain Intel binaries.

Processor type and speed are checked during installation and installation halted if insufficient; however, Leopard will run on slower G4 processor machines (e.g., a 733 MHz Quicksilver) if the installation is performed on a supported Mac and its hard drive then moved to a slower/unsupported one (the drive may either be an internal mechanism or a Firewire external).

Supported machines
Mac OS X Leopard can run on the later flat-panel iMac G4s, the iMac G5, iMac Intel Core Duo and iMac Intel Core 2 Duo, PowerBook G4, Power Mac G4, Power Mac G5, iBook G4, MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, Mac Pro, Mac Mini, Xserve, Xserve G5, Xserve RAID, Macintosh Server G4, and later eMac models. Leopard can run on older hardware as long as they have a G4 upgrade installed running at the 867 MHz or faster, have at least 9 GB free of hard drive space, 512 MB RAM and have a DVD drive. Leopard however will not run on the 900 MHz iBook G3 models even though they exceed the minimum 867 MHz requirement. This is due to the lack of AltiVec support in the G3 line of processors. Leopard can be "hacked" (see below) to install on these G3 and pre-867 MHz G4 machines but the system may behave erratically and many of the programs, features, and functions may not work properly or at all. As of mid-2010, some Apple computers have firmware factory installed which will no longer allow installation of Mac OS X Leopard. These computers only allow installation of Mac OS X Snow Leopard. However, some computers (such as the 2011 model of the Mac mini) can have Leopard installed on them without hacking.

Usage on unsupported hardware
Some ways of running Leopard on certain unsupported hardware, primarily PowerPC G4 computers with CPU speeds lower than the official requirement of 867 MHz, have been discovered. A common way is use of the program LeopardAssist, which is a bootloader similar in some respects to XPostFacto (used for installing earlier releases of Mac OS X on unsupported G3 and pre-G3 Macs) that uses the Mac’s Open Firmware to tell Leopard that the machine does have a CPU meeting the 867 MHz minimum requirement that the Installer checks for before installation is allowed to commence, when in reality the CPU is slower. Currently, LeopardAssist only runs on slower G4s and many people have installed Leopard successfully on these older machines.

Users who have access to supported hardware have installed Leopard on the supported machine then simply moved the hard drive to the unsupported machine. Alternatively, the Leopard Installation DVD was booted on a supported Mac, then installed on an unsupported Mac via Firewire Target Disk Mode. Leopard is only compiled for AltiVec-enabled PowerPC processors (G4 and G5) though, as well as Intel, so both of these methods will only work on Macs with G4 or later CPUs. While some of the earlier beta releases were made to run on some later G3 machines (mostly later 800–900 MHz iBooks), no success with the retail version has been officially reported on G3 Macs except for some later iMacs and "Pismo" PowerBook G3s with G4 processor upgrades installed.

For a number of months after Leopard's release it appeared that the only G3 Macs on which Leopard could be run were those with both an aftermarket G4 processor and an AGP graphics card, as failures with the OS partially booting before crashing were reported on older Macs such as the original tray-loading iMacs and the Beige and Blue & White Power Mac G3 (all with G4 upgrades as Leopard will not even begin to load without one) whereas it would boot fine on newer Macs where the Installer restriction had been circumvented. However, more recently it has been reported that with some more work and use of kernel extensions from XPostFacto, Tiger and beta builds of Leopard, the OS can be made to run on G4-upgraded Macs as old as the Power Macintosh 9500, despite the lack of AGP-based graphics. While Leopard can be run on any Mac with a G4 or later processor, some functionality such as Front Row or Time Machine fails to work without a Quartz Extreme-capable graphics card, which many of the earlier G4s did not include in their factory specification.

Since Apple moved to using Intel processors in their computers, the OSx86 community has developed and now also allows Mac OS X Tiger and later releases to be installed and run successfully on non-Apple x86-based computers, albeit in violation of Apple's licensing agreement for Mac OS X.

Packaging
The retail packaging for Leopard is significantly smaller than it was for previous versions of Mac OS X (although later copies of OS X 10.4 Tiger also came in a similar small box). It also includes a lenticular cover, making the X appear to float above a purple galaxy, somewhat resembling the default Leopard desktop wallpaper.

Compatibility
After Leopard’s release, there were widely reported incidents of new Leopard installs hanging during boot on the blue screen that appears just before the login process starts. Apple attributed these problems to an outdated version of an unsupported add-on extension called Application Enhancer (APE), from Unsanity which had been incompatible with Leopard. Some users were unaware that APE had been silently installed during installation of Logitech mouse drivers. However, only the users who did not have the latest version of APE installed (2.0.3 at that time) were affected. Apple published a knowledge base article on how to solve this problem. Google announced that the Chrome browser will be dropping support for Leopard starting with Chrome 21. By that time Chrome will no longer auto-update, and new Chrome installations are not allowed. Their rationale for removal of support is that Leopard is an "OS X version also no longer being updated by Apple."

Firefox also dropped support for Leopard after it shipped Firefox 16 in October 2012. TenFourFox is a port of Firefox for the PPC architecture, released after Firefox dropped support for Leopard.

title: Mac OS X Leopard


text:
NWA National Tag Team Championship

The NWA National Tag Team Championship was the major tag team title in the NWA-affiliated Georgia Championship Wrestling from 1980 until 1986. The championship was introduced in November 1980 when Georgia Tag Team Champions The Fabulous Freebirds (Michael Hayes, Buddy Roberts, and Terry Gordy) won a tournament to determine the first champions, defeating Stan Frazier and Robert Fuller in the final. They were introduced as the Georgia and National Tag Team Champions and carried a trophy to the ring representing the National title as they wore belts which represented the Georgia title.

The National Tag Team Championship continued to be represented by a trophy until Thanksgiving Night in 1981, when the promotion awarded newly made belts (modeled after the old Georgia tag team belts, which the National title replaced) to the winners of its annual turkey night tag team tournament. The father and son duo of Bob and Brad Armstrong defeated Mr. Fuji and Mr. Saito in the final to win the vacant NWA National Tag Team Championship.

When World Wrestling Entertainment (then called the World Wrestling Federation)'s Vince McMahon bought Georgia Championship Wrestling, Inc.'s TV timeslot (after GCW's contract with TBS expired without renewal: Black Saturday), the titleholders were Ron Garvin and Jerry Oates. After Oates and Garvin refused to sign with McMahon, McMahon discontinued the title.

A new wrestling promotion -- containing some former Georgia Championship Wrestling personnel -- Championship Wrestling from Georgia reactivated the title, and recognized Garvin & Oates as the titleholders, keeping the Georgia Championship Wrestling lineage unbroken. Jim Crockett Promotions bought the TBS wrestling timeslot from the WWF in 1985 -- and Championship Wrestling from Georgia (including CWG's Saturday morning TBS timeslot, as well) -- keeping the title active. The title was written out of JCP storylines when titleholders Ole Anderson & Arn Anderson were stripped of the belts, and JCP replaced them by establishing its 'new' United States Tag Team Championship, and a tournament to crown its 'first' champions.

title: NWA National Tag Team Championship


text:
User talk:Duckecho/Archive02

Your Talk page archive
Your archive should be at User talk:Duckecho/Archive01 or User:Duckecho/Archive01. You put it into the article name space. :) RickK 21:54, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

It's at Talk:Duckecho/Archive01. That's article space, if it doesn't have User: in front of it. I can move it for you, if you want. RickK 21:35, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

The post that you removed (I saw it anyway)
Okay, I stand corrected! I've learned something new. (However, to restore my self-esteem, I'll point out that "connect" is not a noun in my twenty-volume Oxford English Dictionary, or in the online version, which I have access to as an Open University student.)

You must forgive me for ignoring your recent messages. I got my computing assignment finished by staying up until 7 a.m., going to bed for two hours, and then working at it until 11.47, when I finally submitted it. (Thirteen minutes later, and I'd have failed the course.) I'm exhausted. Luckily, it was my day off.

For that reason, I'm not going to post anything to the talk page tonight about the "to better care for his wife" issue. But just here, briefly, I'll point out that if I say, "John said it was a nice day", the actual claim that I am making is that John said that. I'm completely neutral about whether or not it was a nice day. But if I say, "As John said, it was a nice day", then I am making a claim that it was a nice day. I'm also slipping in a little claim that John said it, but my main claim is that it was a nice day. Because you used "as" in your two edits, the Wikipedia article is still claiming that Michael's motive in studying nursing was to be able to look after Terri. (I have studied language analysis at BA and MA level, even though I didn't know "connect" was a noun!) Whether we think that was his motive or not is unimportant. The point is that a proper NPOV article should not state as fact something that is unverifiable. Would you mind taking another look at it? Also, is there any reason why it should appear twice in the (already over-long) article? Thanks. It's after midnight now. Going to bed. Ann Heneghan 23:29, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I answered you and Ann --both --point by point --on her page, at this diff: I gave you a fair shake. (PS: This message will self-destruct in 10 seconds .. 9-8-7-6... go ahead & delete it - you always do.)--  G ordon W atts D ot C om   11:47, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For a good laugh...
Duck, you (or someone very much like you) posted on my talk page that you wanted to talk. check your email. FuelWagon 23:47, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reply to your (old) message
Hello again, Duckecho.

Thank you for your messages to my talk page. They are not recent, but I was very busy with a final course assignment, catching up on sleep, starting and finishing another assignment, and finishing end-of-term work where I teach. I have a lot of unanswered messages and e-mails to deal with.

I am sorry for the pain you must have gone through regarding the death of your brother, and I appreciate your sharing it with me.

At a time when I was extremely tired, I posted a message to your talk page about the "to better care for his wife" issue and about the difference between "John said it was a nice day" and "As John said, it was a nice day". I did not want to get into an edit war, and hoped that you might see what I meant and make the change yourself. That was partly why I posted the message here rather than at the Terri Schiavo talk page.

When I got your message saying that you would e-mail your thoughts to me, I was just disappearing again, and was very busy for the next week, with only the occasional look at Wikipedia. Personally, I feel that comments about the meaning or implied meaning of chunks of text in the Terri Schiavo article are better directed to the talk page for that article. That way, others can contribute, and there's a permanent record. In the next day or two, I shall raise the subject again on the talk page.

I did not appreciate this addition to ghost's talk page I was already hesitating about giving my e-mail address to someone I don't know, and that message settled it. You may remember that several weeks ago I requested that you would remove personal attacks or ridicule directed against other Wikipedians from your user page and your talk page. My reason was simply that Wikipedians do wander into other talk pages, perhaps to leave a message there, and could feel hurt at seeing cruel jokes or nasty remarks about themselves. I have a feeling that the anonymity of the internet and of usernames (which I don't use) can make people behave in a way that they would not behave in if they were in a face-to-face community.

I also do not appreciate your contribution about the medicine bottles, but am trying to consider the possibility that it was just a joke. It can be hard to tell, when messages are posted on the internet by people who do not know each other.

I don't want to spend hours of my time writing personal messages to Wikipedians. It's already very time consuming to edit articles and to contribute to the talk page. I'm frankly amazed at the hostility I find there. Some people have a POV that it was right to take the tube out; others have a POV that it was wrong. I do not understand why that has to lead to such an unwelcoming environment, and to messages such as your one about me to ghost. I really want to stick to the subject of the Terri Schiavo article (and other articles I'm interested in) from now on. I am recovering from some (minor) health problems. I have a fulltime job, and I am trying to finish two Bachelor's degrees (as hobbies) before starting on a doctorate in September. I also have quite a full social life.

I do not expect to use your e-mail address. If ever you wish to send a private message to me, feel free to use the "E-mail this user" link at the left of my talk page. I wish you well. Ann Heneghan 01:33, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

gordo pukes again
(as part of the tony sidaway brouhaha)

 * Here's my two cents worth: Tony does have a point that duck can be proprietal; a look at his contributions, while difficult and lengthy, would eventually verify this. His comments about wack-jobs who've just fallen off the turnip truck indicate he thinks that there are weirdoes out there. That alone, I would agree with Duck, is not offensive, and both of you do appear to contribute. However, taken in the context of his attitude towards NCdave and calling Ann a Pain in the @--, it becomes clear that Duck's faulty logic that the courts must necessarily be NPOV is flawed at the base. That is not to say that he is clueless. Most of his edits seem responsible, and his 500-word summary on improvements for the Schiavo article did not show much bias, but the preceding three links revealed bias was there but dormant. My conclusion is that both of you over-reacted; I would not have snapped back at Tony, but instead acknowledged that I do have a slight amount of proprietoral (spelling?) attitude and then proceeded to justify it by my contributions. Likewise, I am not critical of Tony for making a small typo. We all do. Also, his comment wasn't "evil," but I think I would not have been as critical of Duck regarding the turnip truck comment. Duck has done enough other weird things to criticize, but he also benevolently put in a link to my court case in the activism and protest section back on May 14, two days before my birthday. I bragged about my prowess in court, win lose or draw, and he continues to make generally responsible edits, but if you have time, Tony, you are welcome to keep an eye on us, so long as you follow the context and discussion. --GordonWattsDotCom 1 July 2005 01:12 (UTC)

Look up "supercilious" in the dictionary...
...and I believe you'll find your picture next to the definition. My problem is that I don't suffer fools -- especially arrogant ones -- gladly: what's yours?

You used the form "12 May, 2005" -- with the superflous comma consistently throughout. If you actually had the authority you've assigned yourself -- ham radio, government work, etc -- you'd know that the format you used was, well, wrong. I caught 100% of that point, thank you very much, and if your pride or lack of reading comprehension makes you miss that, I can't really help you any further. --Calton | Talk 13:27, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

"Pat, I'm disappointed in you"
This sort of observation is unnecessary as your approval is irrelevant. Michael's credibility in relating Terri's wishes to be dehydrated to death is at the heart of the Terri Schiavo case. Of course, Michael was believed and the Schindlers were not but doubts about this legal finding are not irrational and remain the "emotional" opinion held by millions. patsw 16:26, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, you unfortunately continue to ignore the fact that at trial Michael's testimony was among the least considered; not as to credibility but as to the potential conflict of interest (shared by the Schindlers) raised by GAL Pearse. Most importantly, Michael's testimony was not remotely the only testimony—from the order, "The court took testimony from eighteen witnesses." I'm not implying that they all testified the same way. It merely proves that Greer didn't make his decision solely on Michael's say so. Moreover, that people (even millions of them) have doubts is even more irrelevant than my approval, and is most certainly irrational because they (nor I) were not at trial (and in most cases they haven't even read the orders) and did not have the advantage that Greer did, as the order states, "[t]he court has had the opportunity to hear the witnesses, observe their demeanor, hear inflections, note pregnant pauses, and in all manners assess credibility above and beyond the spoken or typed word." Duckecho 18:01, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

All three neurologists?
The statement, all three neurologists, confuses the former text, Five doctors were selected to provide their expert testimony to the trial: two by Schiavo's parents, two by Mr. Schiavo, and one by the court. --Viriditas | Talk 06:25, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Duckecho/Archive02