text:
Talk:Kevin Myers

Alleged Hate Speeches
Does anybody have a source for the alleged comments made on NewsTalk and the alleged lawsuit under Incitement to Hatred being brought in that case? There are sources for the first paragraph, but we have to verify any allegations made if true and delete untrue ones, as per BLP. Autarch (talk) 12:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Removed that para just now. Per WP:BLP, and as its unsourced and speculative "a resident... is to make a complaint...".  As and when s/he has done so, its been investigated and the oucome reported in the news or an annual report, it can be included, but until then, I don't think so. Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 14:08, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I'm not sure how to use this website. Kevin Myers did make the comment in question. I have filed a complaint to the Gardai. Hope I am using the webpage correctly, if not, it's ok to delete my post. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saintpadraig (talk • contribs) 18:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Hi Saintpadraig. I've reverted your edit again.  I'm absolutely assuming good faith here - although I've no doubt Myers did make the remarks you claim - including them would be a breach of a couple of policies - namely WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:COI.  Assuming the Gardaí were to act on your complaint and that the outcome was reported, then someone else, other than you, could include it.  If Newstalk has a podcast link to the segment in question, then you could include the first part of the deleted paragraph if you include that link as a source. Regards, Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 21:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

"Homophobia"
Hi,

The citation given for the deleted paragraph does not support the claim that Myers is homophobic. It was a newspaper column by the subject of this article, which was about political correctness in the press and society. For it to support such a claim, he would actually have to say outright, "I am homophobic" - which he clearly did not. It is not enough for an wikipedia editor to read an article, and find that it is self-evidently biased in one way or another.

This is a WP:BLP, one cannot read a writer's articles, dislike the content and then write on wikipedia that that man is "homophobic" - itself a libellous and outrageous claim. As per WP:Sources, to state that he is homophobic here one must have multiple, reliable, non-partisan sources. Thank you Ktlynch (talk) 21:09, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:BLP
Could contributors to the article please provide sources for their claims, as per WP:BLP.Autarch (talk) 20:12, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Kevin Myers and The Phoenix
Myers is referred to as Colonel Myarse or Kevin Myarse reguarly in the Phoenix. I find it odd that this was removed given the fact that on the Peter Carter-Ruck article it mentions the fact that he was referred to as "Carter-Fuck" or "Farter-Fuck" by Private Eye magazine.ĵ

Exiledone (talk) 15:43, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Juvenile and puerile humour, or repeating of same, is not appropriate here. Snappy (talk) 17:58, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well put. Ceoil  17:48, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

 * You're not exactly answering my point given the fact that the Peter Carter Ruck article mentions he was referred to as "Carter-Fuck" of "Farter-Fuck", which I think would be considered more "Juvenile and puerile" than "Colonel Myarse".

Can we just mention the fact that he is a fairly regular target of satire. Exiledone (talk) 13:06, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for that? Obviously other than the Phoenix. Please be aware of WP:BLP. Snappy (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No way are we going down the Farter-Fuck route. But given he is a professional controversialist, and earns money that way, I'd mention satire, but not repeat it. Ceoil  15:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed, and just because other crap exists does not mean it is to be repeated elsewhere. Snappy (talk) 00:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not only does other crap exist, but its a constant fight to keep it out. Explaining basic decency to idiots. Ceoil  00:51, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Dont refer to me as an idiot Ceoil. Also if you want to explain basic decency to idiots my advice is to explain it to the subject of the article.

Exiledone (talk) 12:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I have struck your personal opinion of the living subject of the article - please be aware WP:BLP applies to talk pages just as much as the article space and that the talkpages of living subjects in not a place for you to vocalize your dislike or opinions about the subject. Off2riorob (talk) 16:14, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Recent edits
This edit, though it removed a section called Style, removed a section which described some of his views. This edit, though made to remove mere mention of a column, removed mention of a column that Myers' then employer refused to publish, as well as removing some mention of his political views about the USA.Autarch (talk) 23:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * As a colummnist, Meyers likely has a view on every subject imaginable. How should we determine which of his views are notable, and which are not. The easiest way is to look at what others have written about his views. In the section I removed, there wasn't anything written by others. The bit about his employer refusing to publish a column needs a source, because there wasn't one at all. Kevin (talk) 02:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Here's a couple:
 * Bank heist is snooze to the 'Irish Times'
 * Row over Myers' Irish Times column continues to blaze - "An article in which he blamed the IRA for the bank robbery in Belfast - before similar allegations were made by Northern Ireland police chief Hugh Orde - was not published." Autarch (talk) 22:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Here's a couple more on a different topic - the "bastards" controversy:
 * Waters to sue Irish Times on Myers slur
 * Of Gonzos, Bastards And Other Controversial Matters
 * I'll see what else I can dig up over the next few weeks.Autarch (talk) 22:16, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Question regarding WP:BLP
Does WP:BLP apply to past edits - specifically edits that would be legally actionable? In other words, would WP:BLP mean that defamatory edits need to be purged from the history of an article?Autarch (talk) 00:40, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

"Bastards" controversy
It's extraordinary that this has been removed from this page, given its role in his infamy and ultimate departure from The Irish Times. Also, his very controversial views of Bloody Sunday, travellers, Irish and Irish nationalists have also been sources of the same infamy. This article seems to have whitewashed them all, leaving readers without a full appreciation of the sheer genius that is Sir Kevin Myers, the ultimate supertroll. 93.107.2.255 (talk) 10:31, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2015
Hi,

I'm Mark Tighe from The Sunday Times. Kevin Myers would like where he lives deleted from this page. He has concerns about his personal safety and would prefer if the exact town he lives in was not on this page. The fact that he lives in Co Kildare should be specific enough without causing him his current concern.

Mark

mark.tighe@sunday-times.ie

Toffeeman34 (talk) 13:05, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Mark, thats removed now. Ceoil (talk) 13:50, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

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Holocaust denial
I'm aware that "holocaust denier" can be a contentious label, so is this BBC article sufficient RS? The relevant part of the article text reads "In 2009, Mr Myers wrote a column for the Irish Independent newspaper denying the Holocaust happened." It doesn't use the exact words "holocaust denier" to describe him, so I figured I should query that before reverting 's revert of the holocaust denier category. The source is already linked in the article, currently #11 in the reflist. Marianna251TALK 14:50, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

 * I'm curious about the "labelled". It seems Myers used some deliberately provocative word games in the article where he denied six million died, and denied the Holocaust happened (he said it is not exactly six-million and this was just a rounded figure, and then took the meaning of holocaust from before Hitler's atrocities, rather than its current use to mean the Shoah). After this he basically went to accept that the Holocaust happened in the way the historical consensus has it. I think he was making a point about free speech and what he sees as liberal hypocrisy, as well as trying to cause offence as usual.

 * Then the Guardian quoted Myers' original article out of context and made it look like Myers is indeed a Holocaust denier. But they didn't label him a Holocaust denier, as he probably isn't, however much an anti-Semitic shit he is.

 * So I'm not sure if the use of the word "labelled" is OR. Or whether we should even call him a denier

 * This is the article where he "denies" while not sorta maybe not denying. Here --Mongreilf (talk) 15:00, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

 * I just got to this as well because of his Sunday Times article today. Why bring the Jewish heritage of Winkleman/Feltz into it? If he could be accused of headstrong hamfistedness in his 2009 article, this 2017 one makes me suspect the worst of him. Even Irving's been on tape saying that "millions" of Jews were killed by the Nazis, so his 2009 article saying the same doesn't necessarily mean anything. There's a Guardian article here that describes him as a denier. The current "He's been labelled a Holocaust denier" seems like a nice dodge. I suspect he is actually some form of denier, so have little sympathy for him. --BowlAndSpoon (talk) 15:04, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Well, if we have the Guardian and the BBC saying that he denied the holocaust, then I think it's not OR to say he's been labelled as a holocaust denier. There is a difference between being labelled as X and actually being X, though. Do we have sufficient RS at the moment to say flat-out that he is a holocaust denier? I'm of the opinion that he is, and he's clearly of the opinion that he is, but MPS1992's edit summary was correct that we need third party reliable sources in order to make that statement. Do we have enough? Marianna251TALK 15:13, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

 * I'm with you: I think he's a slippery, Irving-style denier. Do we have the sources for stating it? I don't think we do. I think as it's BLP, his being "labelled" is the way to do it. Well, can't say I have any sympathy for this blatantly antisemitic individual, so if you want to change the article to state flatly that he is a denier, I won't be reverting you! --BowlAndSpoon (talk) 15:19, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Well, it's early days in the media circus, so it looks like this is a wait-and-see. Marianna251TALK 15:26, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I added Category:Holocaust denial and got reverted. I didn't add Category:Holocaust deniers as that category states it's specifically for individuals who have actively promoted denial; but I think the general denial category is relevant and arguably not a BLP violation, given the well-sourced quotes in the article. Robofish (talk) 22:52, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

 * As per the thoughtful analysis above by Mongreilf, it's far from clear that this individual has anything thoughtful or meaningful to say in support of holocaust denial. It seems to me that the deniers category and the denial category are much similar, except that the denial category implies that an individual included in it is somehow important to that cause. I don't see how Myers is important to any cause. MPS1992 (talk) 23:06, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Agreed. My feeling is that he would only be relevant to the holocaust denial category if we had sufficient RS to put him in the holocaust deniers category, since they're so heavily linked. He misrepresents death toll figures, objects to the term "holocaust" (because the original Greek refers to an animal sacrifice that is burnt and only some of the holocaust victims were burnt in ovens), and generally minimises the holocaust with straw man arguments - all of that makes me of the opinion that he is a holocaust denier, but it's also pretty pathetic, as holocaust denial goes, and the categories are for significant coverage/active promotion. As it stands he'll be a footnote in the history of holocaust denial, if that. I wouldn't be surprised if that changed in the future, but for right now I've come around to the opinion that holocaust denial/denier doesn't fit. Marianna251TALK 23:27, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Myers wrote a follow-up article in April, 2009 to answer criticism he received regarding the Holocaust article at issue here. Here is a link. To me it seems clear that he was merely taking issue with Holocaust denial laws in the EU on free speech grounds. In my view, the sine qua non of actual Holocaust denial is rejecting the historical consensus that the Nazis conducted a program for exterminating the Jews. Holocaust deniers believe that no such program existed and that Jews were not put in gas chambers. Myers doesn't seem to be making that argument at all. He calls himself a holocaust denier in the narrow legal sense because he doesn't accept that precisely six million Jews died. He also asserts that "no journalist in Ireland has written as much and as often about the Holocaust, the Final Solution, the Shoah, the Nazi Genocide" as he has. If that's true, it seems inappropriate to cite this one deliberately provocative article as representative of his views on the Holocaust for Wikipedia readers. If we want to put him in the same category as David Irving, we should first look at what else he has written about the Holocaust an how third parties have interpreted those writings. DrQuinnEskimoWoman (talk) 01:06, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * I'm still with Marianna on this. What he says is classic Irving.
 * Irving: "He [Himmler stage-managed the Holocaust, whatever that was"]; Myers: "The Holocaust is therefore that which happened to the Jews of Europe, between 1939-45, whatever that may have been."
 * Irving: "If all the shootings on the Eastern Front are documented – there's no doubt the Nazis killed millions of Jews on the Eastern Front"; Myers: "They were shot by the hundreds of thousands in the Lebensraum of the east … millions of Jews were murdered."
 * Irving: 6 million is "a symbolic number"; Myers: "Its enduring appeal — the digit six, with the six zeros which follow it — depends upon a fairly basic human predilection for numerological magic. It is, very likely, a subconsciously appealing version of the diabolical, 666." That symbolic number, 666, geddit? Yeah, we get it Mr Myers.
 * Neither like the word Holocaust. Irving: "I don't use that word [Holocaust]; Myers: "there certainly was no holocaust. For if the word is to have any literal validity…"
 * Irving: "the probable figure was nearer to four million"; Myers: "One Israeli estimate is that four million died."
 * You'll notice Myers explicitly says in his first article that he thinks there were ovens at Auschwitz – but the deniers' typical claim is regarding the gas chambers. Nowhere, in either article, does Myers say he thinks there were gas chambers at Auschwitz. I think that is deliberate, and the mention of the ovens are thrown in to mask it.
 * Their positions are exceedingly close when they aren't exactly the same. --BowlAndSpoon (talk) 14:42, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
 * There's also Myers ludicrous claim that the programme of annihilation "was begun informally by Nazi armies in 1941, and only took organised form after the Wannsee conference in January 1942", classic Irving 'Hitler knew nothing about this' stuff because there was nothing informal and it was organised well before Wannsee. Lovingboth (talk) 15:54, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Just to mention, we seem to have strayed now into our own analyses of what Myers has said (and how it is strikingly similar to things Irving has said). However convincing this analysis is -- and what BowlAndSpoon has quoted is certainly convincing -- the article should be based on independent reliable sources, not on our own analysis. MPS1992 (talk) 17:51, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Per MPS199's comment above, we're getting into original research territory. The consensus at the moment appears to be that, despite any personal opinions of the man or interpretations of his writing, there aren't enough reliable third party sources to add Myers to the either the "holocaust denial" or "holocaust denier" categories. I suggest we close this discussion until and unless further sources are found. Marianna251TALK 18:33, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

The phrase "is a self-described holocaust denier" is mendacious as it implies that he is an admitted holocaust denier without actually saying so, which would clearly be false. The phrase should probably read as "has self-described as a holocaust denier".

Mentioning controversy in the lead
Given that the lead is meant to summarise the article, surely the controversy surrounding him must be mentioned there? One sentence is not introducing WP:undue weight. WP:LEAD: "Like in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources". Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 18:57, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Absolutely. reverted my re-insertion of your addition and commented on my talk page: "You basically reinstated an accusation of anti-semitism. I hope you realise what that entails. Myers has been active on the talk page before, so."  Well, yes, I do realise what I'd done - restored a referenced fact, that Myers has been accused of anti-semitism. It's there in black and white in the reference and completely satisfies BLP. We're also most certainly allowed to say he lives in Kildare. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Up to you man, and what you can live with. I dont really give a damn from here and have fun. Ceoil (talk) 19:13, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

 * I think it would be worth briefly mentioning the other controversies, since they're also a significant chunk of the article. The word "fired" should also be changed, though, since that might not be strictly true and the source we have just says he won't be writing for them again. That could just mean they won't buy articles from him again; we don't know. Here's my suggestion:
 * Kevin Myers (born 30 March 1947) is a British-Irish journalist and writer. He has contributed to the The Irish Times column "An Irishman's Diary", the Irish Independent, and formerly the Irish edition of The Sunday Times. Myers is noted for his controversial views on a number of topics, including single mothers, aid for Africa and the holocaust. The Sunday Times announced that Myers would no longer be writing for them following an article he wrote on the BBC gender pay gap, for which he was accused of antisemitism and sexism.
 * Thoughts? Marianna251TALK 20:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Other than substituting "known" for "noted", it's suitable. Philip Cross (talk) 21:06, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Done, thanks for the feedback. Marianna251TALK 21:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Done, thanks for the feedback. Marianna251TALK 21:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Well worded. I'll substitute 'misogyny' for 'sexism', as that's what most of the sources are saying; and link directly to the ST Irish edition rather than double-linking the article. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:22, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Good point; I'll change the "Antisemitism and sexism" header to "Antisemitism and misogyny". Marianna251TALK 21:26, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2017
Hi - although I understand completely why no-one would want to claim him as a compatriot given recent events, the edit that completely removes his Irish ancestry, and the fact that he self-identifies as Irish, is deeply POV. He describes himself as an "English-born Irish journalist" (see http://kevinmyers.ie/kevin-myers-about/) and in the absence of better sourcing I suggest that this the correct intro to this entry. I would suggest therefore a change to "English-born Irish journalist" as that is what the sources support. There is no evidence supporting the contention that he is, or self-identifies, as English. He has worked in Ireland his whole adult life and was born to Irish parents, he identifies as Irish, so he should be identified by us as such or, at least, reference to that identification made MartinWye (talk) 11:55, 31 July 2017 (UTC) MartinWye (talk) 11:55, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * It also introduces unsourced content. I'll revert. (Just to note, new talk-page sections should be added at the bottom, not the top of the page, .) Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I will add in the source to the other information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donn300 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

✅

, please see discussion above. Just because somebody is born abroad doesn't remove their Irishness. You have also introduced unsourced content, which is why it was reverted. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:35, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi MartinWye/Bastun, I agree in general that "just because somebody is born abroad doesn't remove their Irishness", and have made that point myself about others e.g. the great philosopher G.E.M. Anscombe was born in Limerick but nobody says she was Irish, she was a British person who happened to have been born in Ireland, her father was stationed there, but she was brought up in Britain. Now this is not the same with Myers. He was not just born in England (which is not so important), but he LIVED in England UNTIL he was already an ADULT for a couple of years (& could've served in the army for many years by then). The reason he has an English accent is because he grew up in England - his birth, upbringing & turning into an adult all took place in England. He went to an English Public School, and so had a very particularly English type of upbringing. You said "the edit that completely removes his Irish ancestry", but the change specifically says that his father was Irish (a GP working there) so I don't think it was correct to say that. He is English of Irish heritage. To illustrate this further, think about the English broadcaster Terry Christian, he was brought up in England by Irish parents (often refers to his Irish dad), has a distinct accent from where he grew up in England, but nobody has thought about suggesting that he is anything other than English, nor would they if he had moved to Ireland when he was about 20 years old. Why treat Myers differently to Terry Christian (& countless other British people of Irish heritage)? Myers may self-identify as Irish, but so did Alfred Willmore (he even changed his name to Micheál Mac Liammóir), and Patrick O'Brian also claimed to be Irish, but that did not make them factually Irish. In fact could one not say (to be kind) that Myers saying he is Irish is POV (his POV). I will add in the source to the other information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donn300 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Myers is of Irish descent and has spent his entire adult life in Ireland. Do we know which passport he carries? At the moment the aticle's 'English' claim just looks like yer usual Irish-nationalist racism. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Myers was a 19 or 20 year old English man when he came to Ireland. Yes he is of Irish descent, but there are hundreds of thousands of English people of Irish descent. What about the example of Terry Christian, if he moved to Ireland as an adult would you try to say he was Irish? And if someone makes a claim to be something, that does not make it so. Alfred Willmore claimed to be Irish (he even changed his name to Micheál Mac Liammóir), and Patrick O'Brian also claimed to be Irish, but that did not make it so.

 * Because he self-identifies as Irish, lives in Ireland, worked (until yesterday) in Ireland, and you don't know what passport he carries. Stop edit-warring against consensus, your PoV is showing. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:49, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Jebus, even the source you latterly provided includes him saying he's Irish! Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:58, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Donn asks a good question, given that Myers is not only born and raised in England, but has made a career out of denigrating Irish nationality itself. Is he a West Brit, or simply a fully fleged English Tory? It is a valid question to ask and sociologically there is a big difference between a member of the nation criticising his own country out of love or compassion and a foreigner just attacking it to denigrate or feel superior. Especially given Myers' penchant for wishing to "commemorate" British Empire soldiers from WWI, while attacking the Easter Rising of 1916 as "absolutely nothing to celebrate". Claíomh Solais (talk) 21:17, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Certainly you could submit your views on this topic to an academic journal. If published, it could be considered as something to include in this Wikipedia article. MPS1992 (talk) 22:30, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * He'd be far from alone in doubting the legitimacy of the Rising - mainstream Irish politicians have done the same. And thousands of Irish volunteers died in the trenches because they assumed it would bring Home Rule. But, obviously, you know all this. Our PoV can't come into it. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 08:56, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't think that you carefully read my comments above from yesterday.

"self-identifies as Irish" - that does not make it so (Alfred Willmore claimed to be Irish (he even changed his name to Micheál Mac Liammóir), and Patrick O'Brian also claimed to be Irish, but that did not make it so in either case. There are countless other example around the world.

"lives in Ireland" - I think that Joe Duffy said something similar about the London bridge attacker Rachid Redouane when he said one attacker 'is Irish' / 'came from Ireland' because Redouane used to live in Rathmines in Dublin. Sorry to have to make the point with that example, but it really is surprising that you would write "lives in Ireland" as a reason!

"worked (until yesterday) in Ireland" - similar strength of argument as the 'lives' one above. Rachid Redouane also worked in Ireland (pastry chef apparently). A lot of people around the world have English colleagues, that does not turn those English colleagues into French/Irish/Italian... people.

I am not biased against him (I think Ireland a fairly tolerant place that can have him in the country criticizing it without incident and indeed liked by many), but it is factually true that he was an adult of 19 or 20 years of age when he arrived in Ireland to live. He came from England where he was born and raised (just like Terry Christian) and in anyone's language he is English. He can be described as 'English of Irish heritage' (like huge numbers of others). Before my edit there was no mention of the fact that he was an English adult when he arrived in Ireland.

Yes, of course, why would I want to censor what he says. But the fact that someone makes a claim to be something does not make it so. Again: Alfred Willmore claimed to be Irish (he even changed his name to Micheál Mac Liammóir), and Patrick O'Brian also claimed to be Irish, but that did not make it so. I used that reference because it had the detail of him moving to Ireland as an adult after having been born and raised to the age of 19 or 20 in England, and it had the details of his particularly English growing-up experience by attending an English public school. It also had other relevant information (father's death, but staying in school with help of LEA) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donn300 (talk • contribs)

 * could you please do us the courtesy of reading WP:TALK, posting in chronological order, and signing your posts, please? This stuff isn't hard and makes life easier for everyone.
 * Once again - see WP:V and WP:CONSENSUS. You are of course entitled to your own opinions on Irish citizenship and who qualifies for it, but you're not entitled to your own facts. If you can prove Myers is a UK citizen and/or doesn't hold Irish citizenship, grand. In the absence of that, self-identification as Irish and being born to an Irish father means he's Irish. Much as some of us would wish it otherwise.  The information on his father and his father's death is still in the article and isn't appropriate for the lead.  Stop edit warring or you'll end up blocked. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:15, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Apologies for the misleading locations of my comments but I was trying to put the answers just underneath others' relevant comments. I like and use that Daniel Moynihan line myself ("entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts"). I do not wish to be in an edit war, I was adding agreed known facts: Myers grew into an adult (from birth) in England, and while he may or may not have become a naturalised Irish citizen afterwards, the article made no mention that he was already an English adult when he arrived in Ireland. You have now put in the lead that Myers "is an English-born Irish journalist and writer", but that implies that he probably came to Ireland as a child or baby. Did you see my earlier reference to the great philosopher G.E.M. Anscombe who was born in Limerick but nobody says she was Irish, she was a British person who happened to have been born in Ireland, her father was stationed there, but she was brought up in Britain and that is mainly why people regard her as British. Maybe the opening line should acknowledge Myers first ~20 years and not mislead people, it could say something like Myers "is an English-born-and-raised Irish journalist.." (though if someone read about a "Scottish-born-and-raised journalist" they would think he was Scottish. So maybe instead it should say that he became a naturalised Irish citizen in adulthood (did he?), so maybe Myers "is an English-born-and-raised Irish-naturalised journalist..". Or if we don't know that he is Irish-naturalised for sure then we could say that he self-identifies as Irish though/and is English-born-and-raised. It recently said something like that: Myers "is an English journalist and writer who moved to Ireland at the age of 19 to attend University College Dublin. His father was an Irish GP living and working in Leicester and Myers later self-identified as Irish (also)". I don't think that so bad, it is accurate and not biased, and unlike the current version it does not mislead people into thinking he was taken to Ireland when he was young, implying that England was a trivial detail in his make-up, whereas he was made into a fully grown adult there. Donn300  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donn300 (talk • contribs) 14:18, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Overplaying the Anti-Semitic card, underplaying West Brit Anglomania
Kevin Myers is primarily known in Ireland as a West Brit "contrarian" journalist, who is one of a number of almost exclusively Dublin/Pale-based public figures who have built up a cottage industry of denigrating traditional Irish (read: Gaelic) culture, language and Irish republican politics. I am surprised that there is absolutely no mention of this at all in the article (probably because his Anglomania in this area is seen as highly mature among Dublin 4 types and the reason for his employment at a number of newspapers over the years).

Compared to his anti-Irishness, his anti-Jewishness pales in comparison (he has literally gone as far as to state that the surviving Irish population are "genetically" defective). And in fact he has sometimes taken some positions which are generally unpopular in Ireland, relating to supporting Israeli military actions (he does this mostly to annoy republicans who support Palestine). I am not one to look a gift horse in the mouth and if the West Brit crowd are willing to throw one of their Gael-bashing propagandists under the horse for anti-semitism, then that serves a purpose, but the article does seem somewhat slanted to certain ideas, while completely excluding other (arguably more notable) ones. Claíomh Solais (talk) 20:22, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * The article currently reflects the third party reliable sources that have been provided. Personally, I think his sexism could do with more attention, since that is just as blatant, if not more so, than his antisemitism - but the sources have primarily focussed on his antisemitism so that's what the article has to reflect. Do you have any reliable sources talking about him being anti-Irish? Marianna251TALK 20:42, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * I've linked in some examples into the above text. It is pretty blatant and a running theme in his works. Claíomh Solais (talk) 22:02, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Those are all primary sources, written by Myers himself, not reliable third party sources. Adding something about "West Brit Anglomania" to the article based on these would be WP:OR. Marianna251TALK 22:12, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Myers' other opinions
Hello. I'm not sure if these warrant mentioning in the article, but it may be relevant that Myers has written several articles for the highly controversial Breitbart website:

Myers also supported the Second Gulf War, and criticized Irish people who opposed that war: "So no rejoicing from them that freedom has come to the people of Iraq, courtesy of the greatest democracies in the world". (Kevin Myers, "An Irishman's Diary", The Irish Times, April 11, 2003, ).

And in an interview with "Newstalk", Myers said about Donald Trump "He's deplorable, but most politicians are. I don't know if I'd have been able to stomach a Clinton presidency, so maybe Trump is a deplorable character that [sic] be a better President.' . 176.61.15.11 (talk) 22:31, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

 * Gotta appreciate the Karma here! One of the "causes" he championed in the Irish Times was the excoriation of Francis Stuart for his anti-semitism (though personally I suspect it was Stuart's Irish Republican background was the real reason). That his career as a mainstream columnist ended amid allegations of holocaust denial fills one with schadenfreude...:) Sarah777 (talk) 20:32, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2022
I am suggesting that as Kevin is subject to abuse that instead of English born. . Kevin is an Irish journalist who was born in the UK. 2A02:8084:D03:8580:4CFC:F10F:2FBA:D684 (talk) 17:23, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:18, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

"Secret meeting arranged by journalist Kevin Myers" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Secret meeting arranged by journalist Kevin Myers and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 6 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. —  Red-tailed hawk (nest) 19:44, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kevin Myers


text:
Taxus baccata

Taxus baccata is a species of evergreen tree in the family Taxaceae, native to Western Europe, Central Europe and Southern Europe, as well as Northwest Africa, northern Iran, and Southwest Asia. It is the tree originally known as yew, though with other related trees becoming known, it may be referred to as common yew, European yew, or in North America English yew. It is a woodland tree in its native range, and it's also grown as an ornamental tree, hedge or topiary. Most parts of the plant are poisonous, with toxins that can be absorbed through inhalation, ingestion and through the skin; consumption of even a small amount of the foliage can result in death.

Taxonomy and naming
The word yew is from Old English īw, ēow, ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *h₁eyHw-. Possibly entered Germanic languages(discussion:Eihwaz) through a Celtic language, see Gaulish *ivos, Breton ivin, Irish ēo, Welsh yw(ywen) and French if. In German it is known as Eibe. Baccata is Latin for 'bearing berries'. The word yew as it was originally used seems to refer to the colour brown. The yew (μίλος) was known to Theophrastus, who noted its preference for mountain coolness and shade, its evergreen character and its slow growth.

Most Romance languages, with the notable exception of French (if), kept a version of the Latin word taxus (Italian tasso, Corsican tassu, Occitan teis, Catalan teix, Gasconic tech, Spanish tejo, Asturian texu, Portuguese teixo, Galician teixo and Romanian tisă) from the same root as toxic. In Slavic languages, the same root is preserved: Polish cis, Ukrainian, Slovakian and Russian tis (тис), Serbian-Croatian-Bosnian-Montenegrin tisa/тиса, tis, Slovenian tisa. Albanian borrowed it as tis.

In Iran, the tree is known as sorkhdār (, literally "the red tree").

Common yew was one of the many species first described by Linnaeus. It is one of around 30 conifer species in seven genera in the family Taxaceae, which is placed in the order Pinales.

Description

Yews are small to medium-sized evergreen trees, growing 10 - 20 m (exceptionally up to 28 m) tall, with a trunk up to 2 m (exceptionally 4 m) in diameter. The bark is thin, scaly brown, and comes off in small flakes aligned with the stem. The leaves are flat, dark green, 1 - 4 cm long, 2 - 3 mm broad, and arranged spirally on the stem, but with the leaf bases twisted to align the leaves in two flat rows on either side of the stem, except on erect leading shoots where the spiral arrangement is more obvious. The leaves are poisonous.

The seed cones are modified, each cone containing a single seed, which is 4 - 7 mm long, and partly surrounded by a fleshy scale which develops into a soft, bright red berry-like structure called an aril. The aril is 8 - 15 mm long and wide and open at the end. The arils mature 6 to 9 months after pollination, and with the seed contained, are eaten by thrushes, waxwings and other birds, which disperse the hard seeds undamaged in their droppings. Maturation of the arils is spread over 2 to 3 months, increasing the chances of successful seed dispersal.

The seeds themselves are poisonous and bitter, but are opened and eaten by some bird species, including hawfinches, greenfinches, and great tits. The aril is not poisonous; it is gelatinous and very sweet tasting. The male cones are globose, 3 - 6 mm in diameter, and shed their pollen in early spring. Yews are mostly dioecious, but occasional individuals can be variably monoecious, or change sex with time.

Distribution and habitat
T. baccata is native to all countries of Europe (except Iceland), the Caucasus, and beyond from Turkey eastwards to northern Iran. Its range extends south to Morocco and Algeria in North Africa. A few populations are also present in the archipelagos of the Azores and Madeira. The limit of its northern Scandinavian distribution is its sensitivity to frost, with global warming predicted to allow its spread inland. It has been introduced elsewhere, including the United States. Aside from its natural habitat, it is also common to find English Yew in gardens because it is very tolerant to pruning, and in cemeteries, as it symbolizes death.

T. baccata's richest central European populations are in Swiss yew-beech woodlands, on cool, steep marl slopes up to 1400 m in elevation in the Jura Mountains and Alpine foothills. In England it grows best in steep slopes of the chalk downs, forming extensive stands invading the grassland outside the beech woods. In more continental climates of Europe it fares better in mixed forests, of both coniferous and mixed broadleaf-conifer composition. Under its evergreen shade, no other plants can grow.

T. baccata prefers steep rocky calcareous slopes. It rarely develops beyond saplings on acid soil when under a forest canopy, but is tolerant of soil pH when planted by humans, such as their traditional placement in churchyards and cemeteries, where some of the largest and oldest trees in northwestern Europe are found. It grows well in well-drained soils, tolerating nearly any soil type, typically humus and base-rich soils, but also on rendzina and sand soils given adequate moisture. They can survive temporary flooding and moderate droughts. Roots can penetrate extremely compressed soils, such as on rocky terrain and vertical cliff faces.

T. baccata normally appears individually or in small groups within the understory, but also forms stands throughout its range, such as in sheltered calcareous sites. T. baccata is extremely shade-tolerant, with the widest temperature range for photosynthesis among European trees, able to photosynthesize in winter after deciduous trees have shed their leaves. It can grow under partial canopies of beech and other deciduous broad-leafed trees, though it only grows into large trees without such shade.

In centuries past T. baccata was exterminated from many woodlands as a poisonous hazard to the cattle and horses that often grazed in the woods. Rabbits and deer however have a level of immunity to the poisonous alkaloids, and the seeds are dispersed by birds, with thrushes greatly enjoying the fruit. It also regenerates readily from stumps and roots, even when ancient and hollow.

Longevity
Taxus baccata can reach 400 to 600 years of age. Some specimens live longer but the age of yews is often overestimated. Ten yews in Britain are believed to predate the 10th century. The potential age of yews is impossible to determine accurately and is subject to much dispute. There is rarely any wood as old as the entire tree, while the boughs themselves often become hollow with age, making ring counts impossible. Evidence based on growth rates and archaeological work of surrounding structures suggests the oldest yews, such as the Fortingall Yew in Perthshire, Scotland, may be in the range of 2,000 years,  placing them among the oldest plants in Europe. One characteristic contributing to yews' longevity is that, unlike most other trees, they are able to split under the weight of advanced growth without succumbing to disease in the fracture. Another is their ability to give rise to new epicormic and basal shoots from cut surfaces and low on their trunks, even in old age.

Significant trees

The Fortingall Yew in Perthshire, Scotland, has one of the largest recorded trunk girths in Britain, reportedly 16-17m in the 18th century, and experts estimate it to be 5,000 years old. The Llangernyw Yew in Clwyd, Wales, can be found at another early saint site and is about 4000–5000 years old according to an investigation led by David Bellamy, who also carbon-dated a yew tree in Tisbury at around 4000 years old. A certificate and memorial board by the tree confirm the tree's age estimate. Other well known yews include the Ankerwycke Yew, the Balderschwang Yew, the Caesarsboom, the Florence Court Yew, and the Borrowdale Fraternal Four, of which poet William Wordsworth wrote. The Kingley Vale National Nature Reserve in West Sussex has one of Europe's largest yew woodlands.

The oldest specimen in Spain is located in Bermiego, Asturias. It is known as Teixu l'Iglesia in the Asturian language. It stands 15 m tall with a trunk diameter of 6.82 m and a crown diameter of 15 m. It was declared a Natural Monument on April 27, 1995, by the Asturian Government and is protected by the Plan of Natural Resources.

A unique forest formed by Taxus baccata and European box (Buxus sempervirens) lies within the city of Sochi, in the Western Caucasus.

The oldest Irish Yew (Taxus baccata 'Fastigiata'), the Florence Court Yew, still stands in the grounds of the Florence Court estate in County Fermanagh, Northern Ireland. The Irish Yew has become ubiquitous in cemeteries across the world, and it is believed that all known examples are from cuttings from this tree.

Toxicity

The entire yew bush is poisonous, with the exception of the aril (the red flesh of the berry covering the seed). Yews contain numerous toxic compounds, including "at least ten alkaloids, nitriles (cyanogenic glycoside esters), ephedrine", and their essential oil, but the most important toxins are taxine alkaloids, cardiotoxic chemical compounds which act via calcium and sodium channel antagonism. If any leaves or seeds of the plant are ingested, urgent medical attention is recommended as well as observation for at least 6 hours after the point of ingestion. The European yew is one of the most toxic species in the genus, along with the Japanese yew, T. cuspidata.

Yew poisonings are relatively common in both domestic and wild animals which consume the plant accidentally,  resulting in "countless fatalities in livestock". Taxines are also absorbed efficiently via the skin. Taxus species should thus be handled with care and preferably with gloves.

"The lethal dose for an adult is reported to be 50 g of yew needles. Patients who ingest a lethal dose frequently die due to cardiogenic shock, in spite of resuscitation efforts." There are currently no known antidotes for yew poisoning, but drugs such as atropine have been used to treat the symptoms. Taxine remains in the plant all year, with maximal concentrations appearing during the winter. Dried yew plant material retains its toxicity for several months and even increases its toxicity as the water is removed. Fallen leaves should therefore also be considered toxic. Poisoning usually occurs when leaves of yew trees are eaten, but in at least one case a victim inhaled sawdust from a yew tree.

Allergenic potential
Male yews are extremely allergenic, blooming and releasing abundant amounts of pollen in the spring, with an OPALS allergy scale rating of 10 out of 10. Completely female yews have an OPALS rating of 1, the lowest possible, trapping pollen while producing none. The pollen, like most species', easily passes through window screens.

While yew pollen does not contain sufficient taxine alkaloids to cause poisoning, its allergenic potential has been implicated in adverse reactions to paclitaxel treatment.

Place names

Words and Morphemes for "yew tree" have resulted in a number of place names. These include the Proto-Celtic ; Old Irish ibar; Irish iobhar, iubhar and iúr; and the Scottish Gaelic iubhar,

Newry
Newry, Northern Ireland is an anglicization of An Iúraigh, an oblique form of An Iúrach, which means "the grove of yew trees". The modern Irish name for Newry is An tIúr (pronounced [ənʲ ˈtʲuːɾˠ]), which means "the yew tree". An tIúr is a shortening of Iúr Cinn Trá, "yew tree at the head of the strand", which was formerly the most common Irish name for Newry. This relates to an apocryphal story that Saint Patrick planted a yew tree there in the 5th century. The Irish name Cathair an Iúir (City of Newry) appears on some bilingual signs around the city.

The area of Ydre in the South Swedish highlands is interpreted to mean "place of yews". Two localities in particular, Idhult and Idebo, appear to be further associated with yews.

York
York (Jórvík) is derived from the Brittonic name Eburākon (Latinised variously as Eboracum, Eburacum, or Eburaci), a combination of "yew-tree" and a suffix of appurtenance  "belonging to-, place of-" (compare Welsh -og) meaning "place of the yew trees" (efrog in Welsh, Old Irish iubrach "grove of yew trees, place with one or more yew trees", iúrach in Irish Gaelic and iùbhrach in Scottish Gaelic); the city itself is called Eabhrach (Irish) and Eabhraig (Scottish Gaelic), from the Latin Eboracum); or alternatively, "the settlement of (a man named) Eburos" (a Celtic personal name is mentioned in different documents as Eβουρος, Eburus, and Eburius and, when combined with the Celtic possessive suffix *-āko(n), could be used to denote his property). The 12th‑century chronicler Geoffrey of Monmouth, in his account of the prehistoric kings of Britain, Historia Regum Britanniae, suggests the name derives from that of a pre-Roman city founded by the legendary king Ebraucus.

The name Eboracum became the Anglian Eoforwic in the 7th century: a compound of Eofor-, from the old name, and -wic "a village", probably by conflation of the element Ebor- with a Germanic root *eburaz ('boar'); by the 7th century the Old English for 'boar' had become eofor. When the Danish army conquered the city in 866, its name became Jórvík.

The Old French and Norman name of Yorks following the Norman Conquest was recorded as Everwic (modern Norman Évèroui) in works such as Wace's Roman de Rou. Jórvík, meanwhile, gradually reduced to York in the centuries after the Conquest, moving from the Middle English Yerk in the 14th century through Yourke in the 16th century to Yarke in the 17th century. The form York was first recorded in the 13th century. Many company and place names, such as the Ebor race meeting, refer to the Latinised Brittonic, Roman name.

The Archbishop of York uses Ebor as his surname in his signature.

Historic suicides
In the ancient Celtic world, the yew tree (*eburos) had extraordinary importance; a passage by Caesar narrates that Cativolcus, chief of the Eburones, poisoned himself with yew rather than submit to Rome (Gallic Wars 6: 31). Similarly, Florus notes that when the Cantabrians were under siege by the legate Gaius Furnius in 22 BC, most of them took their lives either by sword, fire, or a poison extracted ex arboribus taxeis, that is, from the yew tree (2: 33, 50–51). In a similar way, Orosius notes that when the Astures were besieged at Mons Medullius, they preferred to die by their own swords or by yew poison rather than surrender (6, 21, 1).

Religion

The yew is traditionally and regularly found in churchyards in England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and Northern France (particularly Normandy). Some examples can be found in La Haye-de-Routot or La Lande-Patry. It is said up to 40 people could stand inside one of the La-Haye-de-Routot yew trees, and the Le Ménil-Ciboult yew is probably the largest, with a girth of 13 m. Yews may grow to become exceptionally large (over 5 m diameter) and may live to be over 2,000 years old. Sometimes monks planted yews in the middle of their cloister, as at Muckross Abbey (Ireland) or abbaye de Jumièges (Normandy). Some ancient yew trees are located at St. Mary the Virgin Church, Overton-on-Dee in Wales.

In the Septuagint rendering of the Book of Nahum, 1:10, Nineveh and other deemed enemies of the biblical God are foretold to "be laid bare even to its foundation, and…devoured as a twisted yew."

In Asturian tradition and culture, the yew tree was considered to be linked with the land, people, ancestors, and ancient religion. It was tradition on All Saints' Day to bring a branch of a yew tree to the tombs of those who had died recently so they would be guided in their return to the Land of Shadows. The yew tree has been found near chapels, churches, and cemeteries since ancient times as a symbol of the transcendence of death. They are often found in the main squares of villages where people celebrated the open councils that served as a way of general assembly to rule village affairs.

It has been suggested that the sacred tree at the Temple at Uppsala was an ancient yew tree. The Christian church commonly found it expedient to take over existing pre-Christian sacred sites for churches. It has also been suggested that yews were planted at religious sites as their long life was suggestive of eternity, or because, being toxic when ingested, they were seen as trees of death. Another suggested explanation is that yews were planted to discourage farmers and drovers from letting animals wander onto the burial grounds, the poisonous foliage being the disincentive. A further possible reason is that fronds and branches of yew were often used as a substitute for palms on Palm Sunday.

King Edward I of England ordered yew trees planted in churchyards to protect the buildings. Some yews existed before their churches, as preachers held services beneath them when churches were unavailable. Due to the ability of their branches to root and sprout anew after touching the ground, yews became symbols of death, rebirth, and therefore immortality.

In interpretations of Norse cosmology, the tree Yggdrasil has traditionally been interpreted as a giant ash tree. Some scholars now believe errors were made in past interpretations of the ancient writings, and that the tree is most likely a European yew (Taxus baccata).

In the Crann Ogham—the variation on the ancient Irish Ogham alphabet which consists of a list of trees—yew is the last in the main list of 20 trees, primarily symbolizing death. There are stories of people who have committed suicide by ingesting the foliage. As the ancient Celts also believed in the transmigration of the soul, there is in some cases a secondary meaning of the eternal soul that survives death to be reborn in a new form.

Uses
Yew wood was historically important, finding use in the Middle Ages in items such as musical instruments, furniture, and longbows. The species was felled nearly to extinction in much of Europe. In the modern day it is not considered a commercial crop due to its very slow growth, but it is valued for hedging and topiary.

Medical
Certain compounds found in the bark of yew trees were discovered in 1967 to have efficacy as anti-cancer agents. The precursors of the chemotherapy drug paclitaxel (taxol) were later shown to be synthesized easily from extracts of the leaves of European yew, which is a much more renewable source than the bark of the Pacific yew (Taxus brevifolia) from which they were initially isolated. This ended a point of conflict in the early 1990s; many environmentalists, including Al Gore, had opposed the destructive harvesting of Pacific yew for paclitaxel cancer treatments. Docetaxel can then be obtained by semi-synthetic conversion from the precursors.

Woodworking

Wood from the yew is classified as a closed-pore softwood, similar to cedar and pine. Easy to work, yew is among the hardest of the softwoods, yet it possesses a remarkable elasticity, making it ideal for products that require springiness, such as bows. The wood is esteemed for cabinetry and tool handles. The hard, slow-growing wood also finds use in gates, furniture, parquet floors, and paneling. Its typical burls and contorted growth, with intricate multicolored patterns, make it attractive for carving and woodturning, but also make the wood unsuited for construction. It is good firewood and is sometimes burnt as incense. Due to all parts of the yew and its volatile oils being poisonous and cardiotoxic, a mask should be worn if one comes in contact with sawdust from the wood.

One of the world's oldest surviving wooden artifacts is a Clactonian yew spear head, found in 1911 at Clacton-on-Sea, in Essex, UK. Known as the Clacton Spear, it is estimated to be over 400,000 years old.

Longbows
Yew is also associated with Wales and England because of the longbow, an early weapon of war developed in northern Europe, and as the English longbow the basis for a medieval tactical system. The oldest surviving yew longbow was found at Rotten Bottom in Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland. It has been given a calibrated radiocarbon date of 4040 BC to 3640 BC and is on display in the National Museum of Scotland. Yew is the wood of choice for longbow making; the heartwood is always on the inside of the bow with the sapwood on the outside. This makes most efficient use of their properties as heartwood is best in compression whilst sapwood is superior in tension. However, much yew is knotty and twisted, and therefore unsuitable for bowmaking; most trunks do not give good staves and even in a good trunk much wood has to be discarded.

There was a tradition of planting yew trees in churchyards throughout Britain and Ireland, among other reasons, as a resource for bows, such as at "Ardchattan Priory whose yew trees, according to other accounts, were inspected by Robert the Bruce and cut to make at least some of the longbows used at the Battle of Bannockburn."

The trade of yew wood to England for longbows was so robust that it depleted the stocks of good-quality, mature yew over a vast area. The first documented import of yew bowstaves to England was in 1294. In 1423 the Polish king commanded protection of yews in order to cut exports, facing nearly complete destruction of local yew stock. In 1470 compulsory archery practice was renewed, and hazel, ash, and laburnum were specifically allowed for practice bows. Supplies still proved insufficient, until by the Statute of Westminster in 1472, every ship coming to an English port had to bring four bowstaves for every tun. Richard III of England increased this to ten for every tun. This stimulated a vast network of extraction and supply, which formed part of royal monopolies in southern Germany and Austria. In 1483, the price of bowstaves rose from two to eight pounds per hundred, and in 1510 the Venetians would only sell a hundred for sixteen pounds.

In 1507 the Holy Roman Emperor asked the Duke of Bavaria to stop cutting yew, but the trade was profitable, and in 1532 the royal monopoly was granted for the usual quantity "if there are that many." In 1562, the Bavarian government sent a long plea to the Holy Roman Emperor asking him to stop the cutting of yew, and outlining the damage done to the forests by its selective extraction, which broke the canopy and allowed wind to destroy neighbouring trees. In 1568, despite a request from Saxony, no royal monopoly was granted because there was no yew to cut, and the next year Bavaria and Austria similarly failed to produce enough yew to justify a royal monopoly. Forestry records in this area in the 17th century do not mention yew, and it seems that no mature trees were to be had. The English tried to obtain supplies from the Baltic, but at this period bows were being replaced by guns in any case.

Musical instruments
The late Robert Lundberg, a noted luthier who performed extensive research on historical lute-making methodology, states in his 2002 book Historical Lute Construction that yew was historically a prized wood for lute construction. European legislation establishing use limits and requirements for yew limited supplies available to luthiers, but it was apparently as prized among medieval, renaissance, and baroque lute builders as Brazilian rosewood is among contemporary guitar-makers for its quality of sound and beauty.

Horticulture

Today European yew is widely used in landscaping and ornamental horticulture. Due to its dense, dark green, mature foliage, and its tolerance of even very severe pruning, it is used especially for formal hedges and topiary. Its relatively slow growth rate means that in such situations it needs to be clipped only once per year (in late summer).

European yew will tolerate a wide range of soils and situations, including shallow chalk soils and shade, although in deep shade its foliage may be less dense. However it cannot tolerate waterlogging, and in poorly-draining situations is liable to succumb to the root-rotting pathogen Phytophthora cinnamomi.

T. baccata is tolerant of urban pollution, cold, and heat, though soil compaction e.g. by roads can harm it. It is slow-growing, taking about 20 years to grow 4.5 m tall, and vertical growth effectively stops after 100 years. With its soft bark, the tree can be killed over time by rubbing such as by climbing children.

In Europe, Taxus baccata grows naturally north to Molde in southern Norway, but it is used in gardens further north. It is also popular as a bonsai in many parts of Europe and makes a handsome small- to large-sized bonsai.

Well over 200 cultivars of T. baccata have been named. The most popular of these are the Irish yew (T. baccata 'Fastigiata'), a fastigiate cultivar of the European yew selected from two trees found growing in Ireland, and the several cultivars with yellow leaves, collectively known as "golden yew". In some locations, e.g. when hemmed in by buildings or other trees, an Irish yew can reach 20 feet in height without exceeding 2 feet in diameter at its thickest point, although with age many Irish yews assume a fat cigar shape rather than being truly columnar.

AGM cultivars
The following cultivars have gained the Royal Horticultural Society's Award of Garden Merit:-

 * T. baccata
 * T. baccata 'Fastigiata' (Irish yew)
 * T. baccata 'Fastigiata Aureomarginata' (golden Irish yew)
 * T. baccata 'Icicle'
 * T. baccata 'Repandens'
 * T. baccata 'Repens Aurea'
 * T. baccata 'Semperaurea'
 * T. baccata 'Standishii'

Privies
In England, yew has historically been sometimes associated with privies (outside toilets), possibly because the smell of the plant keeps insects away.

Conservation
Historically, T. baccata populations were gravely threatened by felling for longbows and destruction to protect livestock from poisoning. It is now endangered in parts of its range due to intensive land use. The species is also harvested to meet pharmaceutical demand for taxanes. Trees are often damaged by browsing and bark stripping. Yew's thin bark makes it vulnerable to fire. Its toxicity protects against many insects, but the yew mite causes significant bud mortality, and seedlings can be killed by fungi.

Clippings from ancient specimens in the UK, including the Fortingall Yew, were taken to the Royal Botanic Gardens in Edinburgh to form a mile-long hedge. The purpose of this "Yew Conservation Hedge Project" is to maintain the DNA of Taxus baccata.

Another conservation programme was run in Catalonia in the early 2010s by the Forest Sciences Centre of Catalonia (CTFC) in order to protect genetically endemic yew populations and preserve them from overgrazing and forest fires. In the framework of this programme, the 4th International Yew Conference was organised in the Poblet Monastery in 2014.

There has also been a conservation programme in northern Portugal and Northern Spain (Cantabrian Range).

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Taxus baccata


text: User talk:24.105.147.30

title: User talk:24.105.147.30


text:
Talk:Dandiya Raas

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 January 2021 and 29 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dogsrule0305.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Possibilities of addition
The called Dandiya. These sticks have evolved from bamboo sticks. Some people use metal pipes decorated with colours and designs. They make metallic ringing sounds when struck. Are these aluminium pipes or stainless steel pipes? What is the name of wood used to make dandiya? There is a variation to holding dandia. Some people hold it in the middle, some hold it at the end. Some people strike front hand, some people strike with back hand. Any details about people in Vrindavan and Mathura dancing dandiya-raas? Narmad, a Gujarati writer, started first Gujarati periodical named Dandiyo. I have seen people from Pakistan dancing with Dandia in similar style to raas. What is the name of this dance. There is a similar European (or Russian) dance where the dancers strike (or clap) hands with their partners. Adams family danced mamushka by striking swords.Npindia 10:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Garba-Raas competitions have become very popular at the college level in the United States. I know there is an increasing number of collegiate competitions (for a list: http://www.desidanceteams.com/main/?page_id=41) and mentioning that might be a good addition. Also, an example of a competition dance from youtube would be good (there are numerous from many colleges). A video of a more traditional raas dance in a wedding or other setting might be a good idea as well (this could also be found on youtube). HitenP13 (talk) 20:42, 15 March 2008 (UTC) a — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.237.108.27 (talk) 05:15, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Requested Move
This article's title should be "Raas," not "dandiya." Dandiya are sticks. The dance is Dandiya Raas or Raas. --Sakredfire 11:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Page moved per request. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

This article claims that only women participate in the garba raas but I have been to hundred of garba's and ALL of them have had men participating in the garba as well as the dandiya part. -- Yatrik Shah

External link
"Dandiya: the Great Indian Social Dance" leads to a site that requires a password. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.134.230.175 (talk) 06:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Dandiya/Dandia
I standardized on the spelling Dandiya because that was the form in the English wiktionary. But we may want to include a note on also being spelled Dandia if we can confirm it is a common spelling. RJFJR (talk) 16:14, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

IPA?
Can someone add IPA phonetics for words like Raas so we know how they are pronounced? RJFJR (talk) 16:17, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Lindy hop which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 07:30, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Lindy Hop which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 17:44, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

We should improve this article.
,, look at the condition of this article. It is pathetic and completely uncited, one site is the site which can't differentiate between mythology and history. Can you find sources for the article so that it can be further improved? -- Harshil want to talk? 16:35, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Sure. I will search for source, and get back to you. --Gazal world (talk) 17:59, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Will look into it after expansion by you, Harshil169.-Nizil (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

 * I’m done with it. Needs more sources. — Harshil want to talk? 04:53, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Good work. I request you add some History of it. The long quote in the end is better removed and the format explained in your own words. Sahapedia might give you some additional ideas to what should be added (btw it is poorly referenced). See this as well . You may find some more by searching Google Books. Regards,-Nizil (talk) 05:34, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 * check your mail. --Gazal world (talk) 15:30, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Collegiate Garba-Raas
A lot of content surrounding the collegiate garba-raas circuit was added recently, and I added some under "Format" myself. Does all of this new content fit the previous formatting and writing style? -- Amollywolly (talk) 03:42, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dandiya Raas


text:
Talk:Deep Blue versus Kasparov, 1997, Game 6

Old talk
This text:

 * Within the chess world this has become a somewhat infamous game because it was a rare instance in which World Champion Garry Kasparov mistakenly resigns a drawn position. Though white's (Deep Blue) appears to be winning, post-game analyses by Chess players from around the world and Garry Kasparov himself have shown that there was no way for White to win (assuming Kasparov played his best moves).

Is incorrect. The game you are referring to is Deep Blue - Kasparov, 1997, Game 2, in which Garry Kasparov played the black side of a Ruy Lopez, and missed a line that lead to a draw by repition.

The final position of this game is clearly losing once you do a bit of deep analysis, please try and refute the lines in this discussion page before editing again. Themindset 20:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wins and losses in the matches
This edit is mistaken. The matches were as follows:

First match: Final score: Kasparov wins 4-2
 * Game 1: Deep Blue wins
 * Game 2: Kasparov wins
 * Game 3: Draw
 * Game 4: Draw
 * Game 5: Kasparov wins
 * Game 6: Kasparov wins

Second match (all games logged at IBM's website: Final score: Deep Blue wins 3.5-2-5
 * Game 1: Kasparov wins game score
 * Game 2: Deep Blue wins game score
 * Game 3: Draw game score
 * Game 4: Draw game score
 * Game 5: Draw game score
 * Game 6: Deep Blue wins game score (the subject of this article)

The first game was a nice positional win by Kasparov, the second game was where Deep Blue established a winning position but actually through it away on the last move, and handing Kasparov an opportunity to draw (but he resigned instead). Sjakkalle (Check!)  09:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the so famous game is about an opening mixup....

The variation after the resign
My stockfish found 21 ... Re8 better than 21 ... Kd8.--李4 (talk) 05:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC)


text: Category:British nobility stubs

title: Category:British nobility stubs


text:
User talk:Stephenw235

This text:

 * Within the chess world this has become a somewhat infamous game because it was a rare instance in which World Champion Garry Kasparov mistakenly resigns a drawn position. Though white's (Deep Blue) appears to be winning, post-game analyses by Chess players from around the world and Garry Kasparov himself have shown that there was no way for White to win (assuming Kasparov played his best moves).

Is incorrect. The game you are referring to is Deep Blue - Kasparov, 1997, Game 2, in which Garry Kasparov played the black side of a Ruy Lopez, and missed a line that lead to a draw by repition.

The final position of this game is clearly losing once you do a bit of deep analysis, please try and refute the lines in the discussion page of the article before editing again. Themindset 20:20, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

January 2015
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File permission problem with File:Governors Ball Music Festival 2015 lineup poster.png
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title: User talk:Stephenw235


text:
David Hersey

David Hersey (born November 30, 1939) is a lighting designer who has designed the lighting for over 250 plays, musicals, operas, and ballets. His work has been seen in most corners of the globe and his awards include the Tony Award for Best Lighting Design for Evita, Cats, and Les Misérables, the Drama Desk Award for Outstanding Lighting Design for Cats, Miss Saigon, and Equus, and the 1996 Laurence Olivier Award for Lighting Design.

Early life and education
David Hersey was born in Rochester, New York, and attended Oberlin College.

Career
Hersey has been the lighting designer for National Theatre, Royal Shakespeare Company and West End productions, as well as opera at the English National Opera (among others) and ballet at the Royal Ballet. He has been the lighting designer for Broadway productions, starting with Evita in 1980 through Equus in 2008.

Hersey has also been active in the world of theme parks in Florida and Italy, as well as lighting extravaganzas at The Mirage, Treasure Island Hotel and Casino, and Bellagio hotels in Las Vegas. He is the founder of DHA Designs, which concentrates on the design of specialist architectural lighting. For ten years he was lighting consultant to the Royal National Theatre and is a past chairman of the Association of Lighting Designers.

Most recently he has taken on the position of lighting designer for the play Fiddler on the roof done by CFT

Personal life
In 1967 he moved to London, England. Married to Demetra Maraslis, his children are: a daughter Miranda Hersey, b. 1969 (from previous marriage); a son Demetri Alexander Hersey, b. 1978; and a daughter Ellen Katherine Hersey, born 1980.

title: David Hersey


text:
Natalizumab

Natalizumab, sold under the brand name Tysabri among others, is a medication used to treat multiple sclerosis and Crohn's disease. It is a humanized monoclonal antibody against the cell adhesion molecule α4-integrin. It is given by intravenous infusion. The drug is believed to work by reducing the ability of inflammatory immune cells to attach to and pass through the cell layers lining the intestines and blood–brain barrier.

Natalizumab, is a monoclonal antibody which targets a protein called α4β1 integrin on white blood cells involved in inflammation. By attaching to integrin, natalizumab is thought to stop white blood cells from entering the brain and spinal cord tissue, thereby reducing inflammation and the resulting nerve damage.

The most common side effects are urinary tract infection, nasopharyngitis (inflammation of the nose and throat), headache, dizziness, nausea, joint pain and tiredness.

Natalizumab was approved for medical use in the United States in 2004. It was subsequently withdrawn from the market by its manufacturer after it was linked with three cases of the rare neurological condition progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy (PML) when administered in combination with interferon beta-1a, another immunosuppressive drug often used in the treatment of multiple sclerosis. After a review of safety information and no further deaths, the drug was returned to the US market in 2006 under a special prescription program. As of June 2009, ten cases of PML were known. However, twenty-four cases of PML had been reported since its reintroduction by October 2009, showing a sharp rise in the number of fatalities and prompting a review of the chemical for human use by the European Medicines Agency. By 2010, 31 cases of PML were attributed to natalizumab while by 2018 this had risen to 757 cases. The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) did not withdraw the drug from the market as benefits outweigh the risks. In the European Union, it has been approved only for multiple sclerosis and only by itself as the initial cases of PML, and later the fatalities, were said by the manufacturers to be linked to the use of previous medicines by the person.

Medical uses
In the United states, natalizumab is indicated for the treatment of multiple sclerosis and Crohn's disease. It is indicated to treat clinically isolated syndrome – a single, first occurrence of multiple sclerosis symptoms; relapsing-remitting disease – a type of multiple sclerosis that occurs when people have episodes of new neurological symptoms followed by periods of stability; and active secondary progressive disease – when, following a relapsing-remitting course, patients experience gradual disability worsening with continued relapses.

Natalizumab offers a limited improvement in efficacy compared to other treatments for multiple sclerosis, but due to the lack of information about long-term use, as well as potentially fatal adverse events, reservations have been expressed over the use of the drug outside of comparative research with existing medications. Natalizumab is used as a monotherapy.

In the European Union, natalizumab is indicated as single disease modifying therapy in adults with highly active relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis for the following patient groups:
 * People with highly active disease activity despite a full and adequate course of treatment with at least one disease modifying therapy (DMT), or
 * People with rapidly evolving severe relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis defined by two or more disabling relapses in one year, and with one or more Gadolinium enhancing lesions on brain MRI or a significant increase in T2 lesion load as compared to a previous recent MRI.

Adverse effects
The US prescribing information for natalizumab contains a boxed warning about the increased risk of progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy, a viral infection of the brain that usually leads to death or severe disability. Risk factors for the development of progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy include the presence of anti-JCV antibodies (antibodies to the JC virus, a typically harmless virus carried by most humans), longer duration of therapy and prior use of immunosuppressants.

It was first observed in seven patients who received natalizumab in late 2008; three cases were noted in clinical trials in 2006 leading to the drug being temporarily pulled from the market; two cases were reported to the FDA in August 2008; and two cases were announced in December 2008. By January 2010, the FDA noted a total of 31 confirmed cases of PML, with the chance of developing the infection increasing as the number of infusions received by a patient increased. Because of this association, the drug label and package insert accompanying the drug will be updated to include this information. As of February 2012, there were 212 confirmed cases of PML among 99,571 patients treated with natalizumab (2.1 cases per 1000 patients). All 54 patients with PML for whom samples were available before the diagnosis were positive for anti–JC virus antibodies. When the risk of PML was evaluated according to three risk factors, it was lowest among the patients who had used natalizumab for the shortest periods, those who had used few if any immunosuppressant drugs to treat MS in the past, and lastly who were negative for anti–JC virus antibodies. The incidence of PML in the low risk group was estimated to be 0.09 cases, or less, per 1000 patients. Patients who had taken natalizumab for longer, from 25 to 48 months, who were positive for anti–JC virus antibodies, had taken immunosuppressants before the initiation of natalizumab therapy had the highest risk of developing PML. Their risk is fully 123 times higher than the low risk group. (incidence, 11.1 cases per 1000 patients [95% CI, 8.3 to 14.5]). While none of them had taken the drug in combination with other disease-modifying treatments, previous use of MS treatments increases the risk of PML between 3 and 4-fold. In 2016, EMA recommended all people taking natalizumab should undergo full MRI scans at least once a year due to concerns of progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy (PML). In addition, more frequent MRI scans (e.g. every 3 to 6 months) should be performed using simplified protocols should be considered for those at higher risk of PML.

Postmarketing surveillance in early 2008 revealed that 0.1% of people taking natalizumab experience clinically significant liver injury, leading to the FDA, EMEA and manufacturers recommending that the medication be discontinued in patients with jaundice or other evidence of significant liver damage. This rate is comparable to other immune-suppressing drugs. Evidence of hepatotoxicity in the form of elevated blood levels of bilirubin and liver enzymes can appear as soon as six days after an initial dose; reactions are unpredictable and may appear even if the patient does not react to previous treatment. Such signs reoccur upon rechallenge in some patients, indicating that damage is not coincidental. In the absence of any blockage these liver function tests are predictors of severe liver injury with possible sequelae of liver transplantation or death.

Common adverse effects include fatigue and allergic reactions with a low risk of anaphylaxis, headache, nausea, colds and exacerbation of Crohn's disease in a minority of patients with the condition. Adolescents with Crohn's disease experience headache, fever and exacerbation of Crohn's disease.

About 6% of the people in studies developed long-lasting antibodies against natalizumab, which reduced the medicine's effectiveness.

Mechanism of action
Natalizumab is a humanized monoclonal antibody against alpha-4 (α4) integrin, the first drug developed in the class of selective adhesion molecule inhibitors. α4-integrin is required for white blood cells to move into organs, and natalizumab's mechanism of action is believed to be the prevention of immune cells from crossing blood vessel walls to reach affected organs.

Multiple sclerosis
The symptom-causing lesions of MS are believed to be caused when inflammatory cells such as T-lymphocytes pass through the blood–brain barrier through interaction with receptors on the endothelial cells. Natalizumab appears to reduce the transmission of immune cells into the central nervous system by interfering with the α4β7-integrin receptor molecules on the surfaces of cells. The effect appears to occur on endothelial cells expressing the VCAM-1 gene, and in parenchymal cells expressing the osteopontin gene. In animals used to model MS and test therapies, repeated administration of natalizumab reduced migration of leukocytes into the brain's parenchyma, and also reduced lesioning, though it is uncertain if this is clinically significant for humans.

Individuals with MS dosed with natalizumab demonstrated increased CD34-expressing cells, with research suggesting a peak in expression after 72 hours.

Crohn's disease
The interaction of the α4β7 integrin and the addressin (also known as MADCAM1) endothelial cell receptor is believed to contribute to the chronic bowel inflammation that causes Crohn's disease. Addressin is primarily expressed in the endothelium of venules in the small intestine and are critical in guiding T-lymphocytes to lymphatic tissues in Peyer's patches. In CD patients, sites of active inflammation of the bowel in CD patients have increased expression of addressin, suggesting a connection between the inflammation and the receptor. Natalizumab may block interaction between the α4β7 integrin and addressin at sites of inflammation. Animal models have found higher levels of VCAM-1 expression in mice with irritable bowel syndrome and the VCAM-1 gene may also play a part in CD but its role is not yet clear.

Interactions
Natalizumab appears to interact with other immune-modulating drugs to increase the risk of progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy (PML), an often-fatal opportunistic infection caused by the JC virus. In 2005, two people taking natalizumab in combination with interferon beta-1a developed PML. One died, and the other recovered with disabling sequelae. A third fatal case initially attributed to an astrocytoma was reported in a patient being treated for Crohn's disease. Though the patient was being treated with natalizumab in combination with azathioprine, corticosteroids and infliximab, indications of PML infection appeared only after natalizumab monotherapy was re-introduced. No deaths from progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy have been linked to natalizumab when it was not combined with other immune-modulating drugs and other rates of opportunistic infections are not increased in patients taking natalizumab possibly due to the drug's mechanism of action. Other than a prior history of PML, there is no known method to identify patients at risk of developing PML. Natalizumab's label indicates that it is contraindicated for immunosuppressed individuals or those with a history of PML. Due to the uncertain risk of PML, natalizumab is only available through a restricted distribution program. By January 2010, the United States Food and Drug Administration reported a total of 31 confirmed cases of PML associated with natalizumab.

Though the small number of cases precludes conclusion on the ability of natalizumab alone to induce PML, its black box warning states that the drug has only been linked to PML when combined with other immune-modulating drugs and natalizumab is contraindicated for use with other immunomodulators. Corticosteroids may produce immunosuppression, and the Tysabri prescribing information recommends that people taking corticosteroids for the treatment of Crohn's disease have their doses reduced before starting natalizumab treatment. The risk of developing PML was later estimated to be 1 in 1,000 (0.1%) over 18 months though the longer term risks of PML are unknown.

History
Biogen Idec announced the initiation of the first clinical trial of natalizumab as a potential cancer treatment as of September 2008.

Legal status
Natalizumab was originally approved for treatment of multiple sclerosis in 2004, through the FDA's accelerated Fast Track program, due to the drug's efficacy in one-year clinical trials. In February 2005, four months after its approval, natalizumab was withdrawn voluntarily by the manufacturer after two cases of progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy. Groups representing individuals with MS lobbied to have the drug returned to the US market and in June 2006, after recommendation by an advisory committee and a review of two years of safety and efficacy data, the FDA re-approved natalizumab for patients with all relapsing forms of MS (relapse-remitting, secondary-progressive, and progressive-relapsing) as a first-line or second-line therapy. Patients taking natalizumab must enter into a registry for monitoring. Natalizumab is the only drug after alosetron withdrawn for safety reasons that returned to the US market.

In April 2006, the Committee for Medicinal Products for Human Use recommended authorizing natalizumab to treat relapsing-remitting MS, and natalizumab was approved for medical use in the European Union in June 2006.

Health Canada added natalizumab to Schedule F of the Food and Drug Regulations in April 2008, as a prescription drug requiring oversight from a physician.

In 2007, the EMA rejected the application to market natalizumab for Crohn's disease due to concerns over its risk/benefit ratio. In January 2008, the FDA approved it for the induction of remission and maintenance of remission for moderate to severe Crohn's disease.

Biosimilars
In July 2023, the Committee for Medicinal Products for Human Use (CHMP) of the European Medicines Agency (EMA) adopted a positive opinion, recommending the granting of a marketing authorization for the medicinal product Tyruko, intended for the treatment of multiple sclerosis. The applicant for this medicinal product is Sandoz GmbH. Tyruko was approved for medical use in the European Union in September 2023.

In August 2023, the FDA approved approved Tyruko (natalizumab-sztn) and granted approval to Sandoz Inc.

title: Natalizumab


text:
Talk:Very high-level programming language

Python and Logo
Given Python's features and it's many bindings (GL, Gnome and KDE to name a few), I think it's a bad example. Logo however, would be a good example because it can only be used to draw things with. KTurtle is a free implementation of it, and allows the programmer to draw lines with a turtle. Good for educating children the very basics of coding.
 * I agree with you and also think Logo would be a better example. I'm changing that right now. However, I've also seen Python and Javascript been mentioned as "very high level". I actually think it's a misnamer and I'm going to mention it in the article. Sarg 21:12, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This is great, thanks!
 * Next time I suggest being bold and updating it yourself. I don't bite :D Sarg 07:58, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I think stating this this is "used primarily as a professional programmer productivity tool" and then giving Logo as an example is a little contradictiory. Perhaps very high-level programming languages are not used for anything except education. If not, we should find better examples. Syndicate 15:33, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

If "goal orientation" is taken to be a definition of a "Very High Level Language" then SNOBAL, ICon, Idol should be included. Prolog and other rule oriented languages qualify but may not satisfy the Church-Turing thesis for a "programming" language. Goal orientation normally implies backward or forward chaining and I don't immediately see how Logo qualifies.

Python and JavaScript: very high-level, or proprietary?
I have trouble understanding the meaning of this line:

"Very high-level programming languages are usually proprietary software. Some high-level programming languages such as Python and JavaScript are often (incorrectly) considered to be such"

What does "to be such" refer to? Is it saying that Python and JS are considered to be proprietary software, or to be a VHLPL? There is some ambiguity there as to what 'such' is referring to, which should be cleared up.

 * If "goal orientation" is taken to be a definition of a "Very High Level Language" then SNOBAL, ICon, Idol should be included. Prolog and other rule oriented languages qualify but may not satisfy the Church-Turing thesis for a "programming" language.  Goal orientation normally implies backward or forward chaining and I don't immediately see how Logo qualifies.

Need newer references
The two references are from the 70s, but there supposedly was a conference on VHLL in 2004. Please add some newer references, indicating whether "VHLL" has changed meaning in the last 30 years. --IanOsgood 02:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I added the 2004 LSM meeting preceedings as an example of it still being in current use. I added an the announcement of the 2003 LSM meeting, as it indicates that the same types of languages are still considered VHLL. DMacks 03:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't see any reference to VHLL in the first link. From the those links, I presume that Lisp would be included? Got any other refs? (I'm nagging because I fear that "VHLL" is being used as a stick to beat down the less high level langauges.) --IanOsgood 03:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The LSM2003 link specifically mentions scheme and lisp. "The first ref" contains VHLL in its title. The first (at the time you wrote) LSM ref (2004 preceedings) had a subtitle specifically indicating it was the VHLL track of that meeting (I have since added that to the ref in the article). I also added a ref to that same meeting from a lisp users' wiki, which indicates that there was a VHLL track that did discuss lisp. DMacks 03:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I mean that in this reference, I don't see any relation to VHLL except the title of the lightning talk track! The talks are all about Lisp/Scheme internals. I was hoping for something meatier, that would help differentiate between a so-called VHLL and a high-level language. --IanOsgood 17:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The ref was added to illustrate modern usage of the term and as a continuation of its 1970s meaning, as per your request. Now you're asking for something somewhat different. That ref is not a public forum discussing the topic or a high-level introduction to the field itself, but addresses specific lower-level issues. By listing talks under the heading of VHLL, that means the topics of those talks are VHLLish, no? DMacks 18:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Propietary?
Usually proprietary? To me that means a majority of the time, and by such a margin that encountering the other case would be odd. Without numbers, it's just something some guy said.

Why mention proprietary status at all? It sticks out like a sore thumb when the low-level and high-level articles are about the technical aspects of how a language is implemented or programs in it are coded. Does Python become lower-level when the updates to the source code are released? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.143.68.115 (talk) 23:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

BASIC
Isn't BASIC a VHLPL?--82.29.80.122 15:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction in Examples
From the article - "Very high-level programming languages are usually limited to a very specific application, purpose, or type of task." Then it goes on to list Python, Ruby, and Scheme as examples. I feel this is a contradiction. The three languages given as examples are general purpose programming languages with an extremely broad range of applications. I'm not sure which is the intended meaning of the term so I can't say whether the examples are okay and the leading statement is inaccurate, or if the examples are bad. From the references I checked, (but I did not go into deep detail) it appears that the examples are good and the notion that they are limited in scope is inaccurate. 216.36.186.2 (talk) 19:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Domain-specific language vs high-level language
If "higher level" refers to the level of abstraction, then the more abstract a language the more it provides operations found in the conceptual roots of mathematics. For example: lisp, scheme and haskell provide operations from lambda calculus; prolog and answer set programming provide operations from first order logic; occam provides operations from communicating sequential processes which is related to recursion theory.

On the other hand, when a language becomes specific to a particular domain, such as the Business Definition Language cited in the article, it becomes a domain-specific language.

Now if only I could find a reference... pgr94 (talk) 18:52, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

No examples?
From this talk page I gather that all examples for VHLLs were deleted for lack of consensus. If there's no agreement, the article could at least say what languages are considered a VHLL by some people and why, and why others disagree. In its current state the article could as well be deleted because it leaves the reader absolutely clueless. Or are all VHLLs so Domain Specific that nobody's ever heard of them except their single developer-user?--88.73.1.202 (talk) 14:40, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

-

I'm going to pipe in with some examples that I think relevant. Leopard Programming Language, AutoHotkey (but not Autoit, basic-like syntax), DOS Batch files, Ren'Py (there are many others of this type). According to what I am reading ("usually limited to a very specific application, purpose, or type of task,and often scripting languages"; "they might use syntax that is never used in other programming languages, such as direct English syntax") there is an ease of use to the language, syntax that professional developers might find offensive but non-programmers useful and can build _targeted_ _solutions_ quickly (but aren't suited for general programming). Sorry if my post doesn't meet the guidelines here, not sure how to use the talk system. Paxdomine (talk) 18:04, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

This article is unclear. Does VHLL mean its original definition, namely a language usable by non-programmers, in other words a 4GL, or declarative language, such as SQL? Or is it a language having high orders of abstraction, such as Scheme? Or does it mean what HLL or 3GL used to mean, e.g. Python? And who decides on the definition? Note that VHLL was used mainly in the 1980s, so the original definition is the most appropriate. Jonw2 (talk) 14:55, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

GPT has transformed actual human language into a "very high-level programming language"
Much like what pseudo-code-approaching languages have almost (seemingly) tried to achieve, a coding-oriented AI can now take natural language instructions to generate code, i.e. a programmer productivity tool. If this seems half-baked to anyone, consider tokens and combinations thereof as actual lexical tokens, the composition of which will trigger deterministically set computer instructions. Perhaps this deserves insertion or at least consideration. 90.132.212.6 (talk) 09:52, 3 May 2023 (UTC)