text:
Talk:Widespread Panic

Untitled
how long before the w00ks mess this page up?

Widespread Panic holds the record for most headliner appearances at Red Rocks Amphitheatre outside of Denver, Colorado. Typically three shows sell out in less than 10 minutes.

this is some funny sh!t
Learn how to spell tier if you are going to use it in a sentence. Did you go to a second tier primary school? Methinks yes..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.249.41.17 (talk) 22:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

fine work towards the hypnocracy.

st. dilbert is proud.

72.166.224.192 (talk) 16:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)== NOT one of the nation's biggest touring acts ==

In 2005, WSP played Deer Creek, which holds 20,000 people. They sold 4.000 tickets. WSP might be one of the more popular bands in the second teir jam band bracket, but they are NOT one of the country's biggest live bands.

Also, it is flat-out call WSP "heavier" than Phish. Ridiculous.

 * I have made reference to their records in terms of attendance in the article. To note, these are all pre-hiatus.--Moeron 00:09, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

 * No, Panic is not heavier than Phish. But while they are not the nation's biggest touring acts, they are certainly one of them. When I attended their performances regularly in 2000-2002, they regularly sold out huge venues that 95% of touring groups could never dream of filling half of the seats. And not only the South. I know they have a dissapointing draw from time to time, but you should be realistic enough to recognize that they are powerful at the ticket box. User:Havardj

 * I'll have to respectfully disagree with the notion that Panic is not heavier than Phish. On lyrical weight alone Panic is heavier than Phish. Throw in the heavy Neil Young influence and chainsaw like peaks that dump into raging segues and I think there's no comparison. Phish jams are highly structured and played nearly note-for-note each time which lends to its soft nature after a few listens. Jimsurge74 17:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I definitely think you are dead wrong about second teir jam band thing, I've seen them fill massive arenas.--M4bwav 01:19, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

 * It depends on what you mean by "second teir jam band". If you mean it like how it is described here on Wikipedia, in terms of chronologically, they should be considered a second generation jam band. If, however, you mean by the amount of touring/selling tickets, I would have to agree that they are not in the same league as Phish/GD (yet, at least). --Moeron 01:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Well that depends is there some kind of level of ticket sells we are talking about, because I don't think there are any jam bands in between Phish and WSP. I mean if they are second teir, that would mean the first teir only has room for the Grateful Dead and Phish.--M4bwav 03:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Widespread Panics popularity is somewhat related to latitude with a component of population density. New York City is a sold-out run. Buffalo, probably not so much. Anywhere from Raleigh down? Sold-out. Mikelieman 19:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Panic is not one of the biggest touring acts out there, there are a lot of MTV bands and other worthless music that draw huge crowds of teenie-boppers who know nothing about music, but if we are talking about bands with actual talent, yes Panic is the biggest and the best. no one sells out venues such as red rocks faster. As for being heavier than phish, show me a phish song that is heavier than "Imitation Leather Shoes" or even "Thought sausage." USER:seanbra7610:45, 31 March 2008.

Hard living
Please keep the "hard living"/"minimal technical skills" silliness out of the article. Wikipedia has a Neutral point of view policy. Rhobite 01:38, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I like the hard living insult. As if Phish never played an awful show because the band was too wasted to cover "Gettin' Jiggy with It," much less jump on a trampoline. User:Havardj

Jam not Jam band
That whole section was unreferenced speculation so I removed it. If and when you find a source for it, by all means return it. I've been too literally dozens of widespread shows, and listened to literally days of live dead material, while widespread may not play tripped out jams for as long a period at one time as the dead, widespread definitely plays tripped out jams. And the dead don't always jam tripped out style, sometimes they are just extended country-rock jams. --M4bwav 18:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Its fine as you changed it. I'll buy that some of Panic's jams are fairly free-form, and you're right, my section was undocumented. I've also been to quite a few of their shows and have a huge collection of bootleg material, and a lot of what I've heard breaks the common conception of what Panic is. The main reason I wrote the section the way I did was in order to improve on a similar previous section which compared Panic unfavourably with other jam bands for their lack of original jams. This article has a small history of problems, so its worth keeping an eye on. User:Havardj

 * Sorry if my tone was sounded aggressive, I wouldn't mind expanding that part or any other part, if there were more references. Referenced information is awesome because then people could read more in depth information if they wanted, I'll look around, if feel like digging anything up it would be pretty cool.--M4bwav 22:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Organization
I am going to try to better organize the article, add a "past members" box, include some links to interviews and such. I also want to add some more in from the timeline for the Everday Companion. Looking forward to working with some of you to present this article even better! --Moeron 15:08, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Cool, I was going to organize it today, but if you want to do by all means.--M4bwav 15:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Midwest popularity
I have noticed that widespread is kind of popular in certain midwest locations, like parts of colorado, anyone hear anything like this, or have any sources.--M4bwav 15:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Spoken Word Article
I was going to record a spoken word version of this article, but I'm waiting to make sure the article is stable, so that the spoken version can be close to the real article.--M4bwav 13:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you wait a week till about the 26th? I have been meaning to add more about the history and such, but have been tied up with other articles on Wiki. --Moeron 14:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Lol sure, I don't take much encouragement to procrastinate.--M4bwav 14:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Song Histories
While the meaning behind many of Widespread Panic's songs is something of lore among fans (and very often open to interpretation), several rumors do indicate that there is at least some truth behind them.

A few examples of rumored meanings:

 Bear's Gone Fishin'  - Refers to a close friend nick-named Bear(who was dressed as a sea monster) disappearing from an after-show Halloween party and a concurrent dissappearance of a mermaid at the party. When Bear finally reappeared, JB asked Bear where he had been, and Bear's reply was "Bear gone fishin'"

 Imitation Leather Shoes  - Quite literally based on Franz Kafka's book "The Metamorphosis"

 C. Brown  - A take on Charles Schultz' Peanuts comic strip

 Hatfield  - A ficticious account of the events surrounding "rain maker" Charles Hatfield and the Diego Wide Awake Improvement Club

 Big Wooly Mammoth  - Rumor among fans cite this song as an allusion to wearing a condom

 Chilly Water  - A long-time crowd favorite, apparently taken from the biblical story of Rebekah.

 Climb To Safety  - Rumor has it this song is about kicking a heroin habit

 One Arm Steve  - Shortly after joining the band, JoJo showed up to a gig and attempted to enter through the back entrance. Alledgedly, a one-armed bouncer named Steve prevented him from entering, as his picture had not been added to the band's promotional poster

 Jack  - A novel tale involving a deck of Bicycle playing cards

 Action Man  - Finding itself the subject of much debate, this song is commonly viewed as a reference to Man O' War, a racing horse, or, alternately, adult film star Ron Jeremy

Mercy  - One theory holds that this tune is about imminent death

I have moved the above section here because of the fact that this is rumor and speculation. If the policies of WP:V and WP:OR are followed and these theories are cited, they should be added back into the main article. Until that time, please discuss the reintroduction here. (Also, note that messageboards and other internet discussion sites are not considered WP:RS). -- moe .RON   talk  00:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
I have cleaned up and edited the Discography section of the artilce per most other Wiki Band articles. I don't have enough background knowledge of the band however, to clean up the remainder of the article. It should be better divided into sections for easier searching/reading. If someone could please do that, I would appreciate it. Who know's FA status if that happens? It certainly contains a plethora of info! Plm209 15:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to help with this page, but I'm new to wikipedia editing. I was going to fix the dead link in the "George leaves" article in the references section, but I can't figure out how. (It should end in a 5, not a 3.) I will work on the remainder of the article. Rainbirdbrain 18:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, under video listings, the link for "Panic in the Streets" leads to a 1950's movie of the same name, not the dvd. If anyone can fix this as i could not i would appreciate it. Edited 6:09PM Feb 24 08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.152.113.252 (talk) 00:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Brown Cat Additions
Hi everybody. My name is Matt and I'm am with Brown Cat, Inc. the management for Widespread Panic. I've been asked by the band to make some additions to the Wikipedia site and check for any inconsistencies that may be present. The band wants to offer the most accurate biographical information and facilitate the best general knowledge about the group. I am going to create a Videography section. Thanks guys and feel free to share your thoughts. User:Mattd523 11:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I may be wrong but I think there's a rule that says you can't edit an article that you are involved with. I mean you are clearly a non-neutral editor, but as long as there aren't any conflicts I don't care. But if there are, you should probably quit editing at that point.M4bwav 17:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey guys! I am a intern working with Brown Cat, Inc, and I will be adding information regarding Widespread Panic's videography. I'll be starting with "Earth to Atlanta" right now and will eventually have all of their videography information on the site. I hope that is okay with everyone. You are welcome to share your opinions regarding this information if you choose to.

Images in Discography
I am going to be removing the images from the discography and related sections per WP:FAIR USE. Note the section on images that the image must serve a purpose other than adding artistic touch to the page. Each album should have its own page and the cover should be included there. I will check each album to ensure this before editing. This is just to warn everyone why the change is occuring and if you would like to discuss it with me feel free. Another person well-briefed is Moeron. He might be able to shed some light on any questions that might arise.  Plm  209 (talk to me • contribs) 14:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed; I am suprised I haven't happened to notice this page before, since it is one I edited a lot in the past =| -- moe.RON   Let's talk  17:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for removing the videography images. I didnt know what to do since there are no pages for individual videos and the images would become unlinked to any pages. Looks good to me!  Plm  209 (talk to me • contribs) 14:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Reference Update
I have removed bad reference links in this article. The web pages no longer existed. I will also replace them with updated links relative to the events (i.e. George McConnell's departure and Jimmy Herring's joining of the band August 2007). Mattd523 11:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Philips Arena record?
How can they have sold out 17 straight NYE? The arena hasn't been open 17 years. Do they mean 17 straight shows that were part of NYE runs?

With regard to the above, I agree: I deleted that reference because it's false. Philips opened in 1999, so there's no way that the band played there for 15 consecutive years (the number of years I deleted). If there is some sort of record that someone is aware of, then they can add and cite it. Glenn Leavell (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:22, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi all, it is in fact reference to 17 shows since 1999. The band has played multiple night runs at Philips Arena from 1999-2007 with the one exception of 2004. I will find the appropriate citation and add this back into the article. Thanks. Mattd523 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:22, 6 Nov 2008 (UTC)   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.155.175.253 (talk)

11/6/08 updates
Hi all. I have moved the November Asheville show reference to the "2006-Present" section since this is not as relative to the "Live Show" section discussing the band's setlist process.

I have also added a citation for Domingo Ortiz's debut with the band.

Mattd523 (talk) 04:22, 6 Nov 2008 (UTC)

Planned review
Hi there. I noticed that there are not a lot of solid third-party references on this page, and that many of the references are not appropriately cited. I think the content is good; it's just not appropriately cited. I'm going to edit this for strength of sources, OR, and NPOV, unless there are any objections. Thanks! RMJ (talk) 14:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

9/28/09 updates
I moved the discography section to it's on wiki page. I also added some photos and updated the information under "2006 to present" and added some more citations to the "charity/benefit work" section. Mattd523 (talk) 18:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

10/1/09 updates
The videography is now a separate page so I got rid of the video list on this page. Mattd523 (talk) 18:09, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

10/6/09
Just letting you guys know that I took the charity/benefit work section and simply created a table out of it to make it easier to read. Mattd523 (talk) 16:25, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

11/5/09
Hey all. I went ahead and added some pictures to the page under the Early years, 1996-2001 and 2006-Present sections. Mattd523 (talk) 19:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

SquidBillies
Squid-fucking-billies, WTF?!

Associated acts
"Grateful Dead, Allman Brothers Band, Phil Lesh & Friends, Phish, Gov't Mule"

^ I don't get this. ABB and Mule make some sense but the others dont. GD members have sat in before(Weir in 2000) but not the "Grateful Dead." Same with Phish, Trey and Page sat in in 1993, also Page plays on the studio verision of Holden but that's it. Since these were very limited engagements I don't think they qualify as associated acts. I don't think the band ever had any interactions with Phil & Friends other than a member in common. If there are no objections, I am changing this to "Col. Bruce Hampton, Vic Chesnutt, John Keane, Mavis Staples, Dottie Peoples, Warren Haynes, Derek Trucks, David Blackmon." That's a partial list as there are more, suggestions welcome. All are more accurate and had more extensive collaborations with the band than those listed. What does everyone think? UselessToRemain (talk) 23:17, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

^ Add Jerry Joseph to that. UselessToRemain (talk) 16:46, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

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Domingo Ortiz joined in 1988 or 1989, not 1986
Based on this source I found (http://www.everydaycompanion.com/asp/timeline.asp) Domingo Ortiz did begin sitting in with the band regularly in late 1986 but he did not officially join the band and become an official member who performed with them at every show until late 1988 or early 1989. This is further confirmed by this early video of the band (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nkoct9Wu0qs) circa 1987 where he is absent on stage. I have adjusted the article and membership section to reflect this. I put 1988 as the first year of his official membership in the members section as he did record with them on their first album which was recorded in late 1987 and he had been sitting in with them a lot since late 1986. Since there is some question about this I would say it is reasonable to assume he was fully on board by late 1988 for the purposes of this article. sk8punk3d288 (talk) 22:20, 5 December 2016 (EST)

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Seeking help regarding pages for their Porch Songs releases
Do the Porch Song exist as physical media or were they just downloads, if they were downloads only was cover art provided for them? I want to add cover art to the pages Wilmington, DE 2001, Milwaukee, WI 1996, Geneva, MN 2001, Atlanta, GA 1998, Kalamazoo, MI 1997, and Morrison, CO 2001 but am having no luck finding anything. Thanks in advance. J04n(talk page) 18:43, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Widespread Panic


text:
Talk:Doepfer MS-404

NPOV
I hope my tag is self explanatory. This is a well written product review, but that's the problem. --Ds13 14:10, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

 * Updating it again asap. --audioschotter.net 05:32, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Re: NPOV
Hello, Ds13. Thank you for the comments. Well, I have to agree that I'm a WIKI newbie and my style of writing is a little bit decorative as I'm no native speaker.

For this review's comparrison I used three 404's - one borrowed from a fellow musician (a Version1 nonmodified), two of these owned by our band; Serial-#950356 (Version1, modified) and #951188 (Version2, nonmodified).

The "one is not enough" headline does not really mean I want musicians to buy all of these discontinued products they can get. It's rather ment to state there are possibillites to use CV/GATE to control another device. Also the different "sound flavours" are very interesting. This could lead into a semi modular structure of sound processing and maybe a nice transition to an upcoming A-100 article. On the other hand the fact that only one monophonic sound is available at one time leads to some kind of problems in music productions. Therefore a common technique is either to sample single sounds (e.g. blips or percussive sounds) of these devices and map them in a sample player device or record longer audio tracks with a complete filter modulation curve like lead, bass or "hooklines" for example.

Quite often articles I found in my web researches mentioned the 404 as a "clone" of Roland's TB-303. But these devices distinguish from each other technically and soundwise. Therefore I mailed Dieter Doepfer in 2004 for a little more background information. The quotation is an excerpt of his reply. But I agree I really have to change my line "... and not to create a simple clone of a Japanese plastic toy". It may reduce the 303 unfairly - I'm also a little fanatic of the 303 by the way ;).

At "move me gently" - well the handling is really that delicate.

Further comments or suggestions are always welcome.

Cheers, Sven Buresch (Hamburg, Germany)

Re: NPOV by another user who just updated the TB-303 page
It's fine. This MS-404 page needs to be here. I just added the clones section to the Tb-303 part. The info given here is very helpful as I have one and didn't know about a few things like the different versions and the "mean green" one. Sigh I missed that one! I'll fix the page up in factaul form if you drop this dispute. Seems OK now maybe it was changed... Looking....

>>>
 * Hi. I have to admit my writing style may be a little colourful, but I'm no native and I think that especially information about discontinued musical equipment should have some "flesh" as the flavours of the different synthesizers is so versatile. However, I think the information about "clones" (or those who aren't really clones, but also used in similiar ways like the 303) might be useful. The information about the green edition is from www.synrise.de Sometimes they're sold on web auctions almost at the same price as other 404s. By the way - I like your addition to the 303 article. In fact the sound is still wanted and as 303's become rare and expensive there's still a market for manufacturers. Even Roland made a waveform emulation for it's V-Synth. And as many producers go virtual they might go for plugin versions like Audiorealism Bassline for example. Greetings, Sven --audioschotter.net 01:01, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup
I trashed most of the article fataltourist 22:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Some details on this device might be useful information and could be added: - the 404 can be used as a MIDI to CV/GATE interface - it can be customized (e.g. set LFO Jumpers's from triangle to square) --audioschotter.net 02:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Doepfer MS-404


text:
IB Diploma Programme

The International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme (IBDP) is a two-year educational programme primarily aimed at 16-to-19-year-olds in 140 countries around the world. The programme provides an internationally accepted qualification for entry into higher education and is recognized by many universities worldwide. It was developed in the early-to-mid-1960s in Geneva, Switzerland, by a group of international educators. After a six-year pilot programme that ended in 1975, a bilingual diploma was established.

Administered by the International Baccalaureate (IB), the IBDP is taught in schools in over 140 countries, in one of five languages: Chinese, English, French, German, or Spanish. In order to offer the IB diploma, schools must be certified as an IB school. IBDP students complete assessments in six subjects, traditionally one from each of the 6 subject groups (although students may choose to forgo a group 6 subject such as Art or music, instead choosing an additional subject from one of the other groups). In addition, they must fulfill the three core requirements, namely CAS, TOK and the Extended Essay. Students are evaluated using both internal and external assessments, and courses finish with an externally assessed series of examinations, usually consisting of two or three timed written tests. Internal assessment varies by subject: there may be oral presentations, practical work, or written work. In most cases, these are initially graded by the classroom teacher, whose grades are then verified or modified, as necessary, by an appointed external moderator.

Generally, the IBDP has been well-received. It has been commended for introducing interdisciplinary thinking to students. In the United Kingdom, The Guardian newspaper claims that the IBDP is "more academically challenging and broader than three or four A-levels".

History and background
In 1945, the "Conference of Internationally-minded Schools" asked the International School of Geneva (Ecolint) to create an international schools programme. When he became director of Ecolint's English division, Desmond Cole-Baker began to develop the idea, and in 1962, his colleague Robert Leach organized a conference in Geneva, at which the term "International Baccalaureate" was first mentioned. An American social studies teacher, Leach organized the conference—with a $2500 grant from UNESCO—which was attended by observers from European schools and UNESCO. Writing about the genesis of the International Baccalaureate in Schools Across Frontiers, Alec Peterson credits Leach as "the original promoter of the International Baccalaureate." At the end of the conference, Unesco funded the International School Association with an additional $10,000, which was inadequate to do more than produce a few papers, or bring teachers together for meetings.

By 1964, international educators such as Alec Peterson (director of the Department of Education at Oxford University), Harlan Hanson (director of the College Board Advanced Placement Program), Desmond Cole (director of United Nations International School in New York) and Desmond Cole-Baker (head of the International School of Geneva) founded the International Schools Examination Syndicate (ISES). Cole and Hanson brought experience with college entrance examinations in the United States, and Hanson, in particular, brought his experience from a long relationship with the College Board. According to Peterson, "the breakthrough in the history of the IB" came in 1965 with a grant from the Twentieth Century Fund, which commissioned Martin Mayer, author of The Schools, to produce a report on the feasibility of establishing a common curriculum and examination for international schools that would be acceptable for entry to universities worldwide. This led to conferences involving Ecolint, the United World College of the Atlantic (Atlantic College), and others in the spring and fall of 1965, at which details about the curriculum for the Diploma Programme were discussed and agreed upon.

The Ford Foundation grant, secured in 1966, funded Peterson's study at Oxford University, which focused on three issues: a comparative analysis of "secondary educational programmes in European countries...in cooperation with the Council of Europe"; university expectations for secondary students intending to enter university; and a "statistical comparison of IB pilot examination results with...national school leaving examinations such as British A Levels and US College Board (AP) Tests". As a result of the study and the curriculum model developed at Atlantic College, Peterson initiated the pattern of combining "general education with specialization", which melded with the curricula of the United States and Canada, and became the "curriculum framework" proposed at the UNESCO conference in Geneva in 1967. Late in 1967, ISES was restructured and renamed the IB Council of Foundation, and John Goormaghtigh became the first president in January 1968. In 1967, the group, which by then also included Ralph Tyler, identified eight schools to be used for the experimentation of the curriculum.

In 1968, the IB headquarters were officially established in Geneva for the development and maintenance of the IBDP. Alec Peterson became IBO's first director general, and in 1968, twelve schools in twelve countries participated in the IBDP, including Atlantic College in Wales, Ecolint in Geneva, and UNIS of New York. The aim was to "provide an internationally acceptable university admissions qualification suitable for the growing mobile population of young people whose parents were part of the world of diplomacy, international and multi-national organizations."

The first six years of the IB Diploma Programme, with a limited number of students, are referred to as the "experimental period". Each school was to be inspected by ISES or IBO and had to be approved by their government. The experimental period ended in 1975, and in that year, the International Baccalaureate North America (IBNA) was established as a separate entity, allowing the funding for implementation of the IBDP to remain in the country rather than being sent to Geneva. The first official guide to the programme containing its syllabus and official assessment information was published in 1970 and included the theory of knowledge course. The extended essay was introduced in 1978, but creativity, action, service (CAS), although mentioned in guides beforehand, was not specifically identified in the guide until 1989.

In 1980, responding to criticism that the "internationalism" was Eurocentric, the IB hosted a seminar in Singapore with the goal of incorporating Asian culture and education into the IB curriculum. In 1982, the Standing Conference of Heads of IB Schools took steps to modify the Eurocentrism in the curriculum. The same year, the Japanese government hosted a science conference for IBO "as a token of Japanese interest in the various dimensions of the IB".

From the start, all subjects of the IB Diploma Programme were available in English and French, and it was mandatory for all students to study both a first and a second language. In 1974, bilingual diplomas were introduced that allowed students to take one or more of their humanities or science subjects in a language other than their first. The IB Diploma Programme subjects became available in Spanish in 1983.

Core requirements
To be awarded an IB diploma, candidates must fulfill three core requirements, in addition to passing their subject examinations:

 * Extended essay (EE). Candidates must write an independent research essay of up to 4,000 words in a subject from the list of approved EE subjects. The candidate may choose to investigate a topic within a subject they are currently studying, although this is not required. The EE may be written on an interdisciplinary topic.
 * Theory of knowledge (TOK). This course introduces students to theories about the nature and limitations of knowledge (basic epistemology) and provides practice in determining the meaning and validity of knowledge (critical thinking). It is claimed to be a "flagship element" of the Diploma Programme, and is the one course that all diploma candidates are required to take. TOK requires 100 hours of instruction, the completion of an externally assessed essay of 1600 words (from a choice of six titles prescribed by the IB worth 67%), and an internally assessed exhibition or presentation (worth 33%) on the candidate's chosen topic.
 * Creativity, activity, service (CAS). CAS aims to provide students with opportunities for personal growth, self-reflection, intellectual, physical and creative challenges, and awareness of themselves as responsible members of their communities through participation in social or community work (service), athletics or other physical activities (activity), and creative activities (creativity). The guideline for the minimum amount of CAS activity over the two-year programme is approximately 3–4 hours per week, though "hour counting" is not encouraged. Previously, there was a requirement that 150 CAS hours be completed, but this was abolished in 2010. However, some schools still require these hours.

Subject groups
Students who pursue the IB diploma must take six subjects: one each from Groups 1–5, and either one from Group 6 or a permitted substitute from one of the other groups, as described below. Three or four subjects must be taken at Higher level (HL) and the rest at Standard level (SL). The IB recommends a minimum of 240 hours of instructional time for HL courses and 150 hours for SL courses.

While the IB encourages students to pursue the full IB diploma, the "substantial workload require[s] a great deal of commitment, organization, and initiative". Students may instead choose to register for one or more individual IB subjects, without the core requirements. Such students will not receive the full diploma.

The six IBDP subject groups and course offerings are summarised below. More information about the subject groups and individual courses can be found at the respective subject group articles:

 * Group 1: Studies in language and literature. Taken at either SL or HL, this is generally the student's native language, with over 80 languages available. As of courses starting in summer 2011, there are two options for Language A (previously A1): Literature, which is very similar to the old course, and Language and Literature, a slightly more challenging adaptation of the former Group 2 Language A2 subjects, which have been withdrawn. The interdisciplinary subject literature and performance can also be taken at SL.
 * Group 2: Language acquisition. An additional language, taken at the following levels: Language B (SL or HL), or Language ab initio (SL only). Latin and Classical Greek are also offered and may be taken at SL or HL. Following the replacement of the Language A2 option with the Group 1 Language and Literature offering for courses starting in summer 2011, the Language B syllabus was changed: the coursework is now more rigorous, and at HL, there is the compulsory study of two works of literature (although this is for comprehension rather than analysis and is only assessed through coursework). In addition, B SL students can study one of the texts as a replacement for the optional topics.
 * Group 3: Individuals and societies. Humanities and social sciences courses offered at both SL and HL: Business Management, Economics, Geography, History, Information Technology in a Global Society (ITGS), Philosophy, Psychology, and Social and Cultural Anthropology and Global Politics. The course World Religions and the interdisciplinary course Environmental Systems and Societies are also offered at SL only.
 * Group 4: Experimental sciences. Five courses are offered at both SL and HL: chemistry, biology, physics, design technology and computer science. The course Sport, Exercise and Health Science and the interdisciplinary courses Environmental Systems and Societies and Nature of Science are offered at SL only.
 * Group 5: Mathematics. All students hoping to graduate with an IB Diploma must take a math class, with courses available at different levels and with different focus. There are two distinct IB Math courses, both available at standard or higher level: Mathematics: Analysis and Approaches, with an emphasis on algebraic methods and mathematical thinking, and Mathematics: Applications and Interpretation, with an emphasis on modelling and statistics, and with a focus on using technology to solve problems with real-world applications. These curricula were introduced in major changes in 2019 and 2021, replacing the previous curricula with a new structure. Under the 2019 course changes, Further Mathematics were dropped entirely.  Before 2019, in order of increasing difficulty, the courses offered were Mathematical Studies SL, Mathematics SL and HL, and Further Mathematics HL. The computer science elective courses were moved to Group 4 as a full course from first examinations in 2014.
 * Group 6: The arts. Courses offered at both SL and HL: Dance, Music, Theatre, Visual Arts, and Film. In lieu of taking a Group 6 course, students may choose to take an additional course from Groups 1–4, or a school-based syllabus course approved by IB. The interdisciplinary subject literature and performance is also offered, although currently only at SL.

Environmental Systems and Societies SL is an interdisciplinary course designed to meet the diploma requirements for groups 3 and 4, while literature and performance SL meets the requirements of Groups 1 and 6.

Online Diploma Programme and pilot courses
The IB is developing an online version of the IBDP and currently offers several online courses to IBDP students. Eventually, it expects to offer online courses to any student who wishes to register. Additionally, the IB has developed pilot courses that include World Religions; Sports, Exercise and Health Sciences, Dance, and a transdisciplinary pilot course, literature and performance, Global Politics. These pilot courses have now become part of the mainstream courses.

Assessment and awards
All subjects (with the exception of CAS) are evaluated using both internal and external assessors. The externally assessed examinations are given worldwide in May (usually for Northern Hemisphere schools) and in November (usually for Southern Hemisphere schools). Each exam usually consists of two or three papers, generally written on the same or successive weekdays. The different papers may have different forms of questions, or they may focus on different areas of the subject syllabus. For example, in Chemistry SL, paper 1 has multiple choice questions, paper 2 has extended response questions. Paper 3 focuses on the "Option(s)" selected by the teacher and data analysis questions. The grading of all external assessments is done by independent examiners appointed by the IB.

The nature of the internal assessment (IA) varies by subject. There may be oral presentations (used in languages), practical work (in experimental sciences and performing arts), or written work. Internal assessment accounts for 20 to 50 percent of the mark awarded for each subject and is marked by a teacher in the school. A sample of at least five per subject at each level from a school will also be graded by a moderator appointed by the IB, in a process called external moderation of internal assessment. Based on this moderation, the grades of the whole subject from that school will change.

Points are awarded from 1 to 7, with 7 being equivalent to an A-level grade of A*, 6 equal to A, and so on. Up to three additional points are awarded depending on the grades achieved in the extended essay and theory of knowledge, so the maximum possible point total in the IBDP is 45. The global pass rate for the IB diploma is approximately 80%. In order to receive an IB diploma, candidates must receive a minimum of 24 points or an average of four (or C) out of a possible seven points for six subjects. Candidates must also receive a minimum of 12 points from their Higher Level subjects and a minimum of 9 points from their Standard Level subjects. Additionally, candidates must complete all of the requirements for the EE, CAS and TOK. Failing conditions that will prevent a student from being awarded a diploma, regardless of points received, are non-completion of CAS, more than three scores of 3 or below (HL or SL), more than two scores of 2 or below (HL or SL), a score of 1 in any subject (HL or SL), not meeting the specific points required for Higher Level (12) or Standard Level (9) subjects, grade "E" awarded for theory of knowledge and/or the extended essay, or a penalty for academic misconduct from the Final Award Committee.

Candidates who successfully complete all the requirements of the IB Diploma Programme and one or more of the following combinations are eligible to receive a bilingual diploma: two Group 1 subjects (of different languages), a Group 3 or 4 subject taken in a language other than the candidate's Group 1 language, or an Extended Essay in a Group 3 or Group 4 subject written in a language other than the candidate's Group 1 language. IB transcripts are issued to indicate completion of diploma courses and exams for non-diploma candidate students.

Special circumstances
Where standard assessment conditions could put a student with special educational needs at a disadvantage, special arrangements may be allowed. The Candidates with Special Assessment Needs publication contains information regarding procedures and arrangements for students with special needs.

Application and authorization
To offer the IB Diploma Programme, an institution must go through an application process, and during that period the teachers are trained in the IB. At the end of the application process, IB conducts an authorisation visit. Once a school is authorised to offer the programme, an annual fee ensures ongoing support from the IB, legal authorisation to display the IB logo, and access to the Online Curriculum Centre (OCC) and the IB Information System (IBIS). The OCC provides information, resources, and support for IB teachers and coordinators. IBIS is a database employed by IB coordinators. Other IB fees also include student registration and individual diploma subject examination fees.

University recognition
The IB diploma is accepted in 75 countries at over 2,000 universities, and the IB has a search directory on its website, although it advises students to check recognition policies directly with each university. The IB also maintains a list of universities offering scholarships to IBDP graduates under conditions specified by each institution, including 58 colleges and universities in the United States. The following is an overview of university recognition policies in various countries.

Reception
The IBDP was described as "a rigorous, off-the-shelf curriculum recognized by universities around the world" on 10 December 2006, edition of Time magazine, in an article titled "How to bring our schools out of the 20th century". It was also featured in the summer 2002 edition of American Educator, where Robert Rothman described it as "a good example of an effective, instructionally sound, exam-based system". Howard Gardner, a professor of educational psychology at Harvard University, said that the IBDP curriculum is "less parochial than most American efforts" and helps students "think critically, synthesize knowledge, reflect on their own thought processes and get their feet wet in interdisciplinary thinking". An admissions officer at Brown University has claimed the IBDP garners widespread respect.

In the United Kingdom, the IBDP is "regarded as more academically challenging but broader than three or four A-levels", according to an article in The Guardian. In 2006, government ministers provided funding so that "every local authority in England could have at least one centre offering sixth-formers the chance to do the IB".

In the United States, criticism of the IBDP has centered on the vague claim that it is anti-American, according to parents anonymously quoted in The New York Times, who objected to the program's funding from UNESCO in its early years. The base cost is considered to be higher than other programs. In 2012, the school board in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, voted to eliminate all IB programmes in the district because of low participation and high costs.

title: IB Diploma Programme


text:
Talk:Restoration literature

Untitled
Reader notes and caveats:
 * 1) Please note that this article is part of an ambitious project related to English literature. That article contains brief summaries of each of the classic literary periods, a structure mirrored in most university classrooms and older encyclopedia, and this project is attempting to have a full length article on each "period" of English literature.  This article is the first to be completed, but Augustan literature is underway all but finished now.
 * 2) Also, please note that the article is an overview of two generations of literature and seeks to include all of the figures who affected the development of literature during this period. Some of the figures have left very few traces behind, and yet we know that they affected the other authors.  Therefore, there are going to be redlinked names at this time.  This cannot be helped by the present authors.  If no one has yet had much to say about the career of Elkannah Settle, that does not change the fact that his plays goaded Dryden to make more lavish productions or that Alexander Pope would see him as the perfect example of a subordinated and tamed poet in The Dunciad in 1727.  As a fact or event, Elkannah Settle is fully explained here.  As a person, he is not.  It would be intellectually dishonest to not refer to him because there is no Wikipedia article on him, and it would be useless for those with only knowledge of his effects on Restoration literature to write a biographical article composed only of that. Geogre 16:28, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Explanation of the rollback
I would like to explain why I thought it worth leaving the year links in. First, I understand why some think they're low yield. I think they can be very low yield, too, but there are several reasons why I think they should stay, here: I know that a "rollback" is brusque, so I apologize for that, but I wanted to explain why I put the links back in. Geogre 21:34, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) As an overview article, this article is supposed to spot trends and sketch movements.  Therefore, all links to more precise information are additive.  In the case of an article that is bounded by a year or two, linking dates is probably of zero yield.  On the other hand, any article that attempts to talk about time in a big chunk should profit from links to years.
 * 2) Although folks have been extremely slow to do it, the year links are supposed to give people overviews of everything that happened in that year.  Some years have more information, some less.  However, the Restoration and Augustan years are fair.  I would like for readers to be able to spot a coincidence I didn't discuss by surveying a year and come back to fix this article, if needed.  E.g. if I am linking to 1749, and I'm talking about a play, I hope that a reader might notice Pamela being published in the same year.  It might mean something.  Thus, we should hope for more information and not determine in advance that there is no use in the link.
 * 3) It's practice.  Unfortunately, it's how things are done in other articles, and so we kind of need to follow through and not try to rewrite custom now.

Lead picture
Bishonen has solved the problem very well. The current lead painting is exactly what we need. There aren't any awed courtiers or scrofula patients being cured by his touch, but that's sure a regal Charles II up there now. Thanks ever and again, Bishonen. Geogre 00:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Center?

 * "...homogeneous styles of literature that center on..."

Why does an article about English restoration literature not use the British spelling of centre? 210.237.151.1 00:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Presumably it was written by a North American. Feel free to change it, the only rule on this is that spelling conventions should be consistent across an article. Vranak

 * Indeed. It's very hard to be consistent across an article, if one goes away from one's own learning.  I can spell "British," if I choose, but I'm sure I'd slip up and forget that British linguists proposed every one of Noah Webster's orthographical reforms...until he made them... and then decided that they were all vulgar.  I suggest that the same would be true of a person who is accustomed to British spellings and wanted to change things.  It's best to realize that we can all read each others' spellings and go about our business.  Geogre 21:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

A literature that can see
There are two sentences in the introduction that begin, "It saw...". Surely we can find a better idiom than this pretentious rubbish? It is fine in articles that do not have "compelling prose", for we expect much less, but in a featured article it is dreadful. Rintrah 04:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Your input is appreciated. The rheotrical device is known as parallelism.  Still, I'm sorry you couldn't perceive it, but your horror is not very moving.  Geogre 21:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I am well aware of parellelism, but not aware of the value of "It saw". I should expect its ugliness would make writers forgo its usage. Rintrah 04:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The thing was large. It was so large that this.  It was so large that this.  I.e. you can be upset at the personification of "saw," if you want, but to call it "pretentious rubbish" and then expect a polite answer beggars imagination.  The structure is rhetorically sound, and the article is on Restoration literature.  However, I shouldn't let that stop you from complaining, if that's what gives you joy.  Geogre 21:48, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

No numbered citations!!!
An FA and a main page article and not following numbered citations conventions!?! How come? Shushruth \talk page \ contribs 07:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * My thoughts also. Just when you think you have Wikipedia figured out, everything you know gets turned 180. Quadzilla99 08:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Incredible!!!!! 203.101.61.10 11:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

As long as a work is referenced, I don't think it matters whether it sports inline citations or not; here we have a list of references and indications at various points within the text of the sources of information. The article aims well; lets not be too sullen about it.

On the other hand, specific citations would make it easier to assess the article's terms of reference. For example, you wouldn't know from this article that there are two schools of thought on whether George Farquhar counts as a Restoration dramatist or not. In my opinion, having seen Restoration plays from The Man of Mode to The Beaux's Stratagem and The Recruiting Officer, Farquhar represents the apotheosis of the form. I assume that the references used here regard him as a post-Restoration playwright. For me, Restoration drama ends in 1707.

It's a fine article, though, and surely shouldn't be knocked for having its shirt buttons foppishly undone. Quite clearly, the buttons are all there. qp10qp 12:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It was promoted to FA status in June 2005 and it is being displayed now because I suspect it is about to be reviewed. It has no chance of surviving without inline citations.--Grahamec 13:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, well, we'll see about that. It's on the main page because Raul put it there.  No one has moved to review it, and, if it is reviewed, I can promise a strong response from several hands.  When "near unanimous positive reviews" for Half Life 2 doesn't provoke the FAR fanatics but a heavily referenced work does, I'm not very concerned.  Numbered citations are not a requirement for featured articles.
 * As for Farquhar, I do regard him as a Restoration dramatist, but we were doomed to having gaps no matter what we did. I'm not sure I see him as an apotheosis of the form, though.  For me, that's Congreve, who wrote the distilled, perfected, quintessence of the form, but Farquhar's plays are Restoration plays written after the Restoration period, just as Congreve's were.  Bishonen, who wrote the drama section, wanted to concentrate narrowly on the Restoration and its immediate stagings.  What I see in Congreve and Farquhar is two dramatists who were going to become strong commercial players but who were not part of the courtly response or anti-courtly reaction to Charles.  Geogre 21:14, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:REF only demands that articles be referenced and footnotes are not mandatory unless one is quoting a source.--MONGO 22:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Precisely, and even then one can use parenthetical reference. It doesn't matter how often people on FAC or FAR are told this, it never makes a dent.  Footnotes are not required.  Some of us think they are not desirable, either.  I far prefer parenthetical reference to footnotes, as I think they disrupt the text and reading experience much less than jumps.  Furthermore, this particular article was an omnibus article.  Let's take an example of a statement that could have been noted: I say that Richard Blackmore wrote both a Prince Arthur and a King Arthur but that they were soporific works.  No footnote.  However, there is a link there.  If one goes to the article that has been linked, one will see referenced discussion of those works and how they fared with the popular and critical audience.  I wrote both.  Now, do I have to port every reference from every author I talk about to this article, or can the link be a reference?  Basically, I'm saying, "This can be found inside this book."  If any reader were actually concerned about poor Blackmore, he or she would presumably look at the article to learn more and there find all the citations needed.  Never mind, though.  Policy requires no footnotes.  I refuse to employ them.  The article has not been mentioned on FAR, and it should not be removed.  Geogre 02:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I generally use footnotes, but do so only because many of the articles I edit have facts that change yearly or even more often than that. Consequently, some of the articles I have worked on look more like college term papers than encyclopedia articles, due to all the footnoting. It is refreshing to see an article that is well written and then provides the proper references at the end. Plus, all the embedded citations make it harder for newbies to edit...one reason I also liked the Harvard referencing myself and others used in one article, since it takes up far less space than the regular citation templates when using cite.php.--MONGO 04:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * My problem with cite.php, other than how arcane it is, is that it's easy to break. I'm not a newbie, but I'm always messed up if I try to do any copyediting/insertion, etc.  It's really irritating.  This is made worse by the fact that the "preferred" format seems to change every so often, where parentheses are the same yesterday and tomorrow.  (One reason that the MLA adopted "Harvard" references is this very issue.  MLA members were aggravated with having to learn an ever-so-slightly different form every year.)  I would never want to tell anyone else not to use footnotes, and I wish that charity went all the way around, but I personally dislike them.  I'm just one guy, though, and don't think I have the right to tell other volunteers what to do.  Geogre 11:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Main Page vandalism
This article is still badly messed up in both subtle and obvious ways. Someone please check the long-term diffs and do some cleanup; I have to go. Melchoir 20:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Another good reason for semi-locking all Main Page articles. Askari Mark (Talk) 20:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Ordinarily it's thought that Main Page vandalism gets reverted quickly, but the fact that this didn't get done for 12 hours, including an 8-hour stretch while it was still live, is shocking. It's the opening paragraph for crying out loud! Clearly we need more eyes looking a little harder. Melchoir 04:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Offbreak
Can anyone explain what this is? It's throughout the article, deleting text. --TresRoque 20:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

 * It's simple, childish vandalism. I have just finished removing it. Askari Mark (Talk) 20:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Stock market?
The last item in this series seems jarring to me:
 * It saw news become a commodity, the essay develop into a periodical art form, the beginnings of textual criticism, and the emergence of the stock market.

I don't wish to dispute the historical, even cultural significance of the founding of the stock market. But whereas news, the essay, and textual criticism are all literary developments, the stock market is considerably less so. I would end the sentence with "and the beginnings of textual criticism." Anyone agree with me? -- Rob C (Alarob) 17:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

 * That's fine with me, although it is one of those major tick marks on the list of "historical developments." Believe it or not, it's also a literary event, but it's a bit of a circuitous argument to explain it.  The stock market created wealth for traders.  The merchant class rose in wealth like never before.  More rise occurred in less time than perhaps any time since, and certainly any time before, and this created a massive wave in the class structure of England.  When the nobles were no longer the richest men in the nation, and yet when the King was just back and looking lavish and large, the friction between the two sets of voices ("value comes from birth" and "value comes from work") sparked.  When one looks at the period as a whole, one sees this friction underneath both the somewhat hysterical assurances of royalism and the somewhat strident voices of Puritanism.
 * This shows up much more clearly in the "Battle of the Ancients and the Moderns" that Swift would re-fight on behalf of his dull witted former patron, William Temple, in 1696-1705, with A Tale of a Tub, but the jarring and arguing was going on in 1666.
 * Still, from a stylistic point of view, I can also agree with you, because the other items are abstractions, while the stock market is a concrete. Geogre 22:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Robert Gould paragraph
This graf could benefit from citations, such as the various bits on his biography ("He had no schooling at all and worked as a domestic servant, first as a footman and then, probably, in the pantry."), specific claims ("the poem sold out all editions"), and quotations of his poetry ("His poetry has "virgin" brides who, upon their wedding nights, have "the straight gate so wide/ It's been leapt by all mankind,"...). I'm assuming most of this can be found in Sloane (which I don't have) or primary sources; the Oxford dictionary article only verifies generalities, such as him working as a servant and learning to read/write, but has nothing on what kind of servant he was or whether he learned Latin. Anyone with Sloane willing to add the citations? Gzkn 15:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, Sloane is the only source in print. Therefore, there ARE references.  See the References section?  Sloane is all there is.  The whole of it is 70 pp long or thereabouts.  Page numbers are meaningless in this case.  Other material on Gould comes from unpublished dissertations avail. at U. Microfilms.  There had better not be a "reference" to the virgin brides, as that comes from the poetry itself, which the author of that section has read, but I shall be glad to offer up a citation so that you can go to the library and double check.  Just run down now and find, Poems, Mostly Satyrs, by Robert Gould, 1692, and look for the poem entitled "To A Friend Made Unhappy in Marriage" and then look at "A Satyr to Prevent Wooing."  Be sure to get page numbers so that other readers can go check!  I'll give you line numbers, too, if you want.  That'll be an immense help.  Geogre 20:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, and Sloane's book is a monograph from U Penn. It's not exactly an easy book to find, either.  Still, I hope people do read it, as Gould needs a great deal more credit.  Geogre 20:13, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Ah, "Sloane, passim." That should satisfy any serious scholar. -- ALoan (Talk) 23:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

 * It should. The other work on Gould is wholly derivative.  Felicity Nussbaum has written on him, but it's all from Sloane.  Really.  She quotes the same quotes from the same poems...only I don't recall her ever citing him for them.  Geogre 02:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Belts and braces
I removed a footnote to the online Concise Oxford Dictionary of Literary Terms for "Hudibrastic verse" as being redundant, since there was already a wikilink to a good article in a well-known online encyclopedia. Indon reverted me with the edit summary "It doesn't harm the article if the attribution is also given here, right?" and hasn't replied to my argument on his talkpage, which went like this (rather persuasive, if I do say so):

 * Of course it doesn't do any large-scale harm to put both belts and braces on the Hudibrastic verse, as it's either way a very small effect. But on its scale, I think it's harmful rather than positive, yes. It's redundant; redundancy is not good. It needlessly introduces a subscription-only service—always to be avoided, if possible, use only in emergencies. It's mega-possible to avoid it here, as the note seems to me purely decorative. What's the point of it? Er, don't you trust Wikipedia as a reference work? The article Hudibrastic is actually very good. (Geogre wrote it.) And now fully referenced! :-P Bishonen | talk 13:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

I don't mean to make a big deal out of one footnote, and I'll be happy to leave it there if somebody values it and says why, however briefly. But if nobody does, I think I'll just remove it again. Bishonen | talk 21:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

Britanica?
You folks must be joking! You would use Britanica to reference our article? This article corrects mistakes that Britanica makes. It is superior to them. Anything for a footnote, though, right? Geogre 22:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Article needs citations, books need isbn, etc. per current FA criteria
As you probably know, the criteria for maintaining a FA status have risen. Wikipedia articles are intended to be improved upon over time. This article is in good shape, so bringing up to current standards should not be difficult. Here are some suggestions to upgrade the article:
 * Supply more inline citations as much of the article is not referenced. See Citing sources
 * Improve the relationship of the lede to the rest of the article. Topics such as textual criticism are mentioned prominently in the lede, but no mention is made in the body of the article.
 * Why is "Restoration literature" in quotes in the lede?
 * "While her poetry was occasionally sexually frank, it was never as graphic or intentionally lurid and titillating as Rochester's. Rather, her poetry was, like the court's ethos, playful and honest about sexual desire." Some statements, such as this one, appear to be personal opinion. A citation would remove this question.
 * The paragraph starting, "f Behn is a curious exception to the rule of noble verse, Robert Gould breaks that rule altogether. Gould was born of a common family and orphaned at the age of thirteen..." is unreferenced and again seems to be personal opinion or WP:SYN. Some change in tone and the addition of references would remove this problem.
 * Heading such as Other poets (translations, controversialists, etc.) violate the MoS style rules. See MoS:Article titles, headings and sections
 * Again, the section under the above heading is personal in tone, opinionated, and unreferenced.
 * The six subsections under Prose genres are similarly unreferenced with too much of an essay tone.
 * There are similar problems under the remaining section.
 * The article is not clear if it is inclusive, aiming to be a general survey, or rather if is intends to focus on a subsection of the topic.
 * The article appears to be written as a personal, literary essay. Perhaps, with citations and a less personal tone, the article could fulfill the goal of being encyclopedic.
 * Books listed need isbns when available.
 * These are some suggestions that are meant to be helpful and I hope are responded to in the spirit in which they were intended. Regards, — Mattisse  (Talk) 20:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, that's one person's opinion. Since the article has been through FAR twice and come back off, both times, everything you say hinges on your personal assessment.  Employing passive voice constructions will not change the fact that this is merely your own feeling, and it lives and dies by your vehement insistence that "criteria... have risen."  That little passive voice hides another bit of POV.  First, what you mean is that the standards have changed, but changed since when?  Since the article became an FA? Surely.  Since it was at FAR last?  No.  Since the standards "have changed" none since the last examination, you can say what you will and be, as so often in the past, merely expressing your personal desires.
 * And now, despite my efforts to avoid it, I think I must go weigh in at an RFC. Geogre (talk) 12:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for weighing in. And I guess you are saying that you do not want to bring the article up to current FAR standards?  — Mattisse  (Talk) 04:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Both the quantity and quality of the drama suffered when in 1682 the more successful Duke's Company ate the struggling King's Company, and the amalgamated United Company was formed. The production of new plays dropped off sharply in the 1680s, affected by both the monopoly and the political situation (see Decline of comedy below). The influence and the incomes of the actors dropped, too.[3] In the late 80s, predatory investors ("Adventurers") converged on the United Company, while management was taken over by the lawyer Christopher Rich. Rich attempted to finance a tangle of "farmed" shares and sleeping partners by slashing salaries and, dangerously, by abolishing the traditional perks of senior performers, who were stars with the clout to fight back —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.98.19.91 (talk) 11:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 04:12, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Restoration literature


text:
User:DiceDiceBaby

Hello everybody.

My name is Burt Wainwright, I'm a lawyer living outside Jackson, Mississippi.

My interests are John Grisham, international justice and economics, and card games. I hope to be able to add some of my knowledge to articles about the subject.

I hope soon to start up the John Grisham project, a project to standardize information about his books.

title: User:DiceDiceBaby


text:
Sir James Montgomery, 1st Baronet

Sir James Montgomery, 1st Baronet Stanhope, FRSE (1721 – 2 April 1803) was a Scottish advocate, judge, country landowner, agriculturalist and politician who sat in the House of Commons from 1766 to 1775. In 1783 he was a joint founder of the Royal Society of Edinburgh.

Life
Montgomery was born at Macbie Hill in Peeblesshire in October 1721, the second son of William Montgomery, Sheriff-Depute of Peeblesshire, of Coldcoat or Macbie Hill, Peeblesshire. His mother was Barbara Rutherford, daughter of Robert Rutherford of Bowland, Stow, Midlothian. In Edinburgh he resided at Queensberry House on the Royal Mile and was its last resident as a private house. Here he famously had a black servant named "Hannibal".

After schooling at the parish school at West Linton, Montgomery studied law at the University of Edinburgh, and was called to the Scottish bar on 19 February 1743. In 1748, after heritable jurisdictions had been abolished, he was appointed the first sheriff of Peebles under the new system. On 30 April 1760, thanks to the influence of his friend Robert Dundas, then newly appointed lord president, he succeeded Sir Thomas Miller, Lord Glenlee as Solicitor General for Scotland jointly with Francis Garden (1721–1793). In 1764, he became sole solicitor-general, and in 1766 Lord Advocate in succession to Miller, to whose parliamentary seat for the Dumfries Burghs he succeeded also.

But at the general election of 1768, Montgomery was returned for Peeblesshire, a seat which he retained till he was raised to the bench. A learned lawyer and an improving landlord, he was peculiarly fitted to deal with the question of entails, which had now become pressing, owing to the extent to which details fettered the practical management of land. The existing statute was Sir George Mackenzie's Act of 1685, and since it passed 485 deeds of entail had been registered under it. The public demanded a reform; the Faculty of Advocates had passed resolutions approving it. Montgomery accordingly introduced a measure in March 1770, which passed into law (10 Geo. Ill, c. 51) and considerably enlarged the powers of the heir of an entail in respect of leasing and improving the entailed lands, and even provided for the exchange of land in spite of an entail. Though he remained in parliament, Montgomery took little further interest in its proceedings after the passage of his bill. In June 1775, he was created Lord Chief Baron of the Scottish Exchequer, and in 1781 he was elected fellow of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland; he resigned his judgeship in April 1801. In July 1801, he was created a Baronet. Montgomery was, like his father, skilled in farming, and in 1763 bought a half-reclaimed estate of Lord Islay's in Peeblesshire, originally called Blair Bog, but afterwards 'The Whim,' which eventually became his favourite residence. In 1767, he bought for £40,000 Stanhope and Stobo with its feudal barony in Peeblesshire, part of the estates of Sir David Murray, 4th Baronet, which had been confiscated for their owner's complicity in the Jacobite rising of 1745. He thenceforward chiefly resided in the country, where his good methods of farming and the improvements which he promoted, notably the Peebles and Edinburgh road in 1770, gained for him the title of 'The Father of the County.'

Montgomery died at Stobo on 2 April 1803 and is buried in Stobo churchyard.

Family
Montgomery married Margaret Scot, daughter and heiress of Robert Scot of Killearn, Stirlingshire. They had four sons, and three daughters:

 * Lt.-Col. William (d. Oct 1800)
 * Margaret Montgomery (d. 1805) married Robert Campbell of Kailzie. They had no issue
 * Sir James Montgomery, 2nd Baronet (9 Oct 1766 - 27 May 1839)
 * Archibald Charles (25 June 1771 - 1845) married Maria Rausch. They had three sons, and two daughters.
 * Robert (5 June 1775 - 2 December 1854) married Elizabeth Mason, daughter of a Bryant Mason, on 24 April 1817. They had four sons, and two daughters.
 * Barbara Montgomery married Brig.-Gen. Alexander Walker.
 * Anne Montgomery married Thomas Hart.

Montgomery was succeeded in his baronetcy by James, his second son, afterwards Lord Advocate, his first-born son, William, a lieutenant-colonel in the 43rd foot, having predeceased him.

Montgomery and his wife, Margaret Scott, are buried in a walled-off part of the cemetery at Stobo Kirk near Peebles, with an unusual wall lining of yew hedge. His home had been the nearby Stobo Castle, which he purchased in 1767 for the sum of £40,500.

Montgomery was grandfather to James Francis Montgomery.

title: Sir James Montgomery, 1st Baronet


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Femme Fatale (Powerpuff Girls)

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was already merge/redirected to Femme fatale. ===Femme Fatale (Powerpuff Girls)=== Delete. This isn't a principal character in the animated series, The Powerpuff Girls. Therefore, this article has no value to stand as its own separate article. Besides, I have already moved the information to the article entitled "Femme fatale". Marcus2, 14:24, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Marcus2's actions leave no other option than Keep, for GFDL compliance. Deletion is not the final step in article merger. Uncle G 02:36, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
 * Err, can't we just redirect it? A и D я 01D  TALK  EMAIL  02:55, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, and we should indeed redirect this. See also WP:FICT. -- Jonel 04:19, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Agree with Jonel, redirect. RickK 04:22, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes. Redirecting is the final step article merger.  I was making the point that we now may not delete it. Uncle G 14:46, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


text:
Talk:IRT Flushing Line

I noted the first part that says that because of the Asian popluation in the Flushing area the #7 was nicknamed the "Orient Express". I see where you have a reference to how that name came about. To be honest that is the first time I have ever heard of that.

The #7 is nicknamed the "International Express" because of the diverse number of communities that it goes through.

I am going to add that to the article.

--Allan 14:14, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No Second Avenue Station?
A major issue is the fact that the line will be traversed by the Second Avenue Subway (T Line). As of yet, it seems that the line will connect with the Grand Central/Lexington Avenue Station of the 7 Line. This will mean too much crowding for that 7 Line station. Why not add an additional 7 Line station at Second avenue to connect to the new T Line? Dogru144 15:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Flushing Line is too deep at that point, Plus, I believe there is a switch at that point. Pacific Coast Highway  { ho ho ho •  under the tree } 16:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

 * There is indeed a scissors crossover switch somewhere between Grand Central and the East River, but the biggest reason is probably the depth. Another factor is probably the proximity of that location to the shoreline. Larry V (talk | e-mail) 06:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I believe the issue came up during the public comment period for the Second Avenue Subway. LarryV is indeed correct. You can't put a station there because the Flushing Line is on a slope at that point. Switches could be moved, and there are other deep stations, but you can't have "angled" platforms. Marc Shepherd (talk) 14:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

 * But the S-line could be extended to connect to the T? Anyway, if it is not going to happen, we can't write about it.--Bk1 168 (talk) 13:27, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

 * The 42 Street Shuttle operates as three trains running back and forth, each on its own track. Also, the Grand Central shuttle platform is arranged so that walkways connect the eastern ends of the platforms, at track level. An extension of the shuttle would require a complete rearrangement of the Grand Central area, in addition to changing the operations of the shuttle from three separate single-track lines to one two or three track line.  This would be necessary to avoid confusion. Hope this will help.  Coaster  lover  1994  21:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

LED Signs
Is the 7 train the first train to have the green circle of LEDs to designate local vs. red diamond of LEDs to designate express? It seems they are installed on all the cars running nowadays. In searching for it, I can see references to an earlier test where the LEDs spelled out "LCL" or "EXP" but I think the green circle / red diamond are more effective. The only place the route signs on the sides of the train are mentioned in the aritcle are in the first paragraph, but I'm not sure this edit is a key fact for the article. Dialt0ne (talk) 10:32, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

extension on port washington LIRR tracks
I have heard of plans to extend the line 7 to the east using LIRR tracks of the Port Washington Branch. I have my doubts if this makes too much sense, because there are only two tracks to share, but is there any evidence that these plans existed or have been dropped? I understand that the third rail of LIRR and NY-subway is compatible.--Bk1 168 (talk) 11:15, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Most likly NOT. The FRA would not allow subway trains and LIRR trains to share tracks because of the differences in construction strength. A crash between the two would be devastating for the weaker car (subway). Acps110 (talk • contribs) 12:02, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not know the characteristics of Subway rolling stock. But what you are saying makes sense.  So for the sake of this article, it is a bad idea to persue this issue any further.  But one aspect is worth mentioning in the LIRR- and NYC-subway articles (unless it is wrong):  That they could technically use the same tracks, because the third rail electrification is the same.  Off course beyond the FRA-issues it is quite clear that subways, especially those from the IRT-branch, are much narrower.--Bk1 168 (talk) 19:55, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Technically yes, however there are other differences as well. The LIRR uses a different voltage on their lines and the distance from the top of the rail to the floor is also different. A platform to serve both types would have to be a compromise. The floor height would make it a deal-breaker for ADA compliance which mandates accessibility for disabled people. At accessible stations throughout the NYCS there is a raised portion of the platform near the center which allows level entry for wheelchairs. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 23:51, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand that the subway uses 600V. And I have heard, that the LIRR has changed the voltage to 750V.  So I assume that that is the incompatibility in voltage?  Even if it is not so relevant for the line 7, I do see that the different voltages and the geometric compatibility of the third rail between LIRR and NYC-subway (and not Metro North) is useful and interesting information for articles about the subway and LIRR in Wikipedia in general.  The only hard information I found about this 750V in Wikipedia was in an article about Railroad electrification in the United States which mentioned the 750V since the 70s.--Bk1 168 (talk) 13:33, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Proposed New York City Subway expansion (1929–1940), which would've included an extension of the IRT Flushing Avenue line out towards Alley Pond Park, and a spur through Whitestone and College Point? DanTD (talk) 14:11, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Port Authority Stop?
Why isn't there a stop at the Port Authority being made? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.146.236 (talk) 11:56, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Ask the MTA, not us. DanTD (talk) 03:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Template damage
I forget how often this has happened, but something on the Template:IRT Flushing Line got messed up again. DanTD (talk) 03:13, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Termini
Someone had put Queensboro Plaza as the line's weekend terminal..--VMIKEW (talk) 12:16, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You are right, it was a temporary change that hadn't been undone. Vcohen (talk) 12:38, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

To-do
Sonoma's bridge (talk) 12:00, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * General
 *
 * For table
 * NYTimes "Woodside and Corona"
 * NYTimes "Corona Line"
 * NYTimes "Corona Subway"
 * NYTimes "Queensboro Line" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonoma's bridge (talk • contribs) 14:52, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * NYTimes "Flushing Line"
 * NYTimes "Flushing Train"
 * NYTimes "Flushing Subway"
 * NYTimes "7 Line"
 * NYTimes "7 Train"

Proposed merge with Steinway Tunnel
The two articles talk about the same set of tunnels under the East River, and can sufficiently be explained within one article. Epicgenius (talk) 02:23, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
 * In the List of fixed crossings of the East River article we can see a list of 12 East River crossings (bridges and tunnels) that are part of some subway line. 5 of them are redirects to articles about subway lines, and 7 have their own articles. If you merge these two articles as you have proposed, the relation will be 6 redirects and 6 own articles. I think if we are changing something we have to make it more consistent. Considering the fact that at least Manhattan Bridge and Williamsburg Bridge are serious articles that cannot be merged into anything else, I think the right way is to create articles and not to merge them. Vcohen (talk) 08:25, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

 * Oppose - The tunnel pre-dates the Flushing Line, and was originally built more for the Steinway Railway than anything else. -User:DanTD (talk) 16:39, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

7th Street in Manhattan and 11th Street in Long Island City
Has anybody seen the single line diagram of this line back in the days when it was referred to as the "Steinway Line?" (http://www.bmt-lines.com/cars-and-tracks/maps-and-drawings/) (http://www.bmt-lines.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/astoria-flushing.pdf) Evidently, Times Square (IRT Flushing Line) was originally going to be named Seventh Avenue (IRT Flushing Line) and there was a proposed 11th Street (IRT Flushing Line) station in LIC. Seems like that one might be a little too far west of Queensboro Plaza and Court Square, don't you think? -User:DanTD (talk) 10:37, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks like 11th Street was going to be located at where Vernon Boulevard–Jackson Avenue is now... epicgenius (talk) 14:16, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure of that, because they already have a separate "Jackson Avenue" station proposed there. -User:DanTD (talk) 15:19, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, so maybe Hunters Point Avenue? Hunters Point Av and Vernon-Jackson are pretty close together. Hunters Point Av probably is close enough to 11 St for there to be an entrance from 11 St. epicgenius (talk) 19:18, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * They had a Hunters Point Avenue station there too. I just keep thinking this might've been an old proposed alignment of the tracks. -User:DanTD (talk) 19:30, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, probably. It doesn't make sense to have 3 stations so close to each other. epicgenius (talk) 20:01, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

It looks like "11th Street" is actually Court Square. This keeps in mind that the avenues were originally streets (i.e. "Ely Avenue" is now 23rd Street, while "11th Street" is 45th Road). You can tell because Jackson Avenue and Davis Street are the modern-day names as well. epicgenius (talk) 20:25, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * That makes a lot more sense. -User:DanTD (talk) 20:44, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

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Mileage?
I could not find any info on the length of the line in miles. Am I missing something? 31.94.7.151 (talk) 21:01, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:IRT Flushing Line


text:
Talk:History of Victoria

Dunno if Melbourne can be called the financial centre of Australia and New Zealand. Throughout Australias history melbourne and sydney have been fairly equal. thats why canberra was built. (Message posted: 00:14, 4 Jun 2005 by IP 195.110.75.89)

During the second half of the 19th century Melbourne was the financial centre of Australasia....that's why even today lots of Australia's largest banks and financial institutions have their HQ in Melbourne. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.150.113.89 (talk • contribs)

This article could be greatly expanded and improved. I've made a start with some early European stuff, and I'll gradually develop it further - at least to the gold rushes. MulgaBill 22:41, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
 * - more on the period 1803-1834, and on Aboriginal Victoria. MulgaBill 01:23, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

As we have established in the discussion at History of Australia, what happened in the area which is now Victoria before the arrival of Europeans is prehistory, not history. It is absurd that an article on the History of Victoria should take up three-quarters of its length with events before 1834, and squeeze all of the actual history of Victoria into its final paragraphs. Adam 00:50, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, the article seems long enough that it could be forked and the pre-european sections reduced to a summary section. --Martyman- (talk) 08:00, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Snowy Mountains Scheme
I would have thought this was pretty significant to the history of Victoria, but can't find any info here.

More work needed
Even with the non-history removed (and I have just removed the inevitable "Portuguese discovery" mythology), this article is still very inadequate. More than half it deals with doscovery and early settlement, and everything since 1855 is squeezed into a few paragraphs at the end. This is what happens when history articles are written by amateur antiquarians rather than historians. Adam 06:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The extremely poor nature of this article reflects Victorians general disinterest in their own history...or what tiny amount of history they do have. 21 March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.6.205 (talk) 03:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a lot of duplication with the history of Melbourne, Port Phillip, Sullivan Bay, and so on. I think this should be the main article for everything before permanent settlement in 1834. I will (perhaps) gradually rationalize some of the others. Billingd (talk) 05:36, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Removing Copyright copy?
Hi David.moreno72. Im really pleased to see the work you are doing to improve this page. However, Im not clear on your removal of material (replaced by Dl2000) on the grounds its "copyright copy". Or have I misunderstood something? The Franks murder is now sourced to a 1915 newspaper - an original source but not necessarily any more reliable, and almost certainly not written by a historian. Anyway, to illustrate the frontier conflict of Port Phillip District, why not put in the quite well documented disappearance of Gellibrand and Hesse, and the Faithfull Massacre etc etc? Cheers Nickm57 (talk) 04:01, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Nickm57, Thanks for your comments and edits, it's all well appreciated. What I am concerned about is the use of copy from the author James Boyce. As respected and controversial he might be, his latest book was only published last year which means his copy is still copywritable. My other concern is that his comments and views are not presented in a neutral fashion. My third concern is that large sections of his copy is then reproduced across many different pages with no difference between them, as through the contributor was trying to make a point. There is always more than one story. What I would like to see are the references that James Boyce uses and put those on wikipedia. My only aim is to ensure articles are balanced and neutral and without infringement of copyright. Also I think that by going back as close to the actual event with newspapers, the more detail is revealed.David.moreno72 (talk) 05:05, 28 January 2012 (UTC) Anyway, I would like my next contribution about how Victorian won separation.

 * Sure - I take some of your points and I dont know the writer in question at all. However, as a new editor its worth you checking this WP article on reliable sources: RS. You'll see that WP insists on verifiable secondary sources wherever possible, not primary sources. By the way, copyright law does not prohibit anyone (inc WP editors fortunately!!!) quoting a published writer, as long as its acknowledged and appropriate. See Citing_sources. Anyway good luck, its good to see another Aust Hist enthusiast.Nickm57 (talk) 06:12, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

PostWar history of Victoria
Clearly we need to have a section covering Victorian history post WW2.

The section we had for the 1990s, however, was completely unsourced and highly POV. It was a clearly political effort at painting Victoria as ruined by the ALP and saved by the Liberal Party. There's not really any way of salvaging it properly - there needs to be a proper 1945-2012 section written, and that wasn't it. Garth M (talk) 23:20, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * UPDATE - even more disturbed. That's been sitting there, unsourced, pretending to be the sum total of Victorian postwar history, since User:Biatch added it in October 2006. Garth M (talk) 23:27, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Border issue
I see nothing about the process whereby it was determined the border with NSW would be the Murray River. For some time it was planned that the Murrumbidgee River would define the southern border (or part thereof). There must be stuff we can use about this matter. --  Jack of Oz   [Talk]  02:59, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

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Why add text on Australia in WW2 to this article?
Why add text lifted from elsewhere on WP, relating to Australia's federal government and the events of WW2 to this page, which is on one of Australia's states? There is story to be told about the state of Victoria during WW2, but this is not it.Nickm57 (talk) 21:56, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. Sorry. Have removed it. "Main article" usually points to a more specialised article about the same subject. I let myself be misled by that. That formulation should be changed.--Ettrig (talk) 05:05, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:History of Victoria


text:
Tring railway station

Tring railway station is 1.5 mi outside the market town of Tring, close to the Grand Union Canal but actually nearer to the village of Aldbury in Hertfordshire, England. Situated on the West Coast Main Line, the station is now an important marshalling point for commuter trains from here for most stations to London Euston.

There are five full length (12-car) platforms, with one side platform and two islands. To the east of the station are some south facing sidings connecting to the slow lines. Platforms 1 & 2 are the fast-line platforms, platforms 3 & 5 are the slow-line platforms and platform 4 is used by starting and terminating services to/from Euston and additional through trains southbound.

History

Tring station was opened by the London and Birmingham Railway (L&BR) on 16 October 1837 when the L&BR extended its line out of London beyond Boxmoor to Tring. The first train to Tring ran from Primrose Hill at 9:00 am on 16 October 1837, reaching Tring at 10:10 am. On 15 November 1844, Queen Victoria and Prince Albert made their first train journey north from Euston, reaching Tring in 52 minutes where the train stopped to take on water. Despite rain, the appearance of the royal train attracted crowds of farm labourers and local children, to the Queen's delight. It is reported that after this stop, Victoria asked that the speed of her train be reduced.

The L&BR was constructed by the railway engineer Robert Stephenson. He originally planned a route which would have taken the new railway to the east of Tring, but vociferous opposition from influential local landowners such as the Earl of Essex, Earl of Clarendon, Lord Brownlow and Sir Astley Cooper delayed the project and forced the route to be changed before parliamentary approval could be obtained, with the result that Tring railway station had to be sited some distance from the town. The remote location of Tring station is sometimes wrongly attributed to objections which were said to have been made by Lord Rothschild to protect his land in Tring; in fact, Lord Rothschild was not born until 1840, three years after the railway had opened and the Tring lands were only acquired by his father Lionel in 1872. He did, however, object to a much later plan to build a steam tramway between Tring Station and Aylesbury. Tring station's distance from the town would have been greater had the L&BR placed the station at Pitstone Green, some three miles further north, as it originally planned to do. The preferred location at Pendley required purchasing land from the Comte d'Harcourt, another landowner reluctant to admit the railways to his estate, and he demanded such an exorbitant price that the L&BR selected a cheaper but less convenient plot of land. The townspeople of Tring were so enthusiastic for a railway that in 1837 they raised funds to bridge the difference in price between what the Company was prepared to pay and the price demanded by the Harcourt estate. They also supported the construction of a new road to the station and according to the 1839 issue of the Railway Times, "As soon as the Company had determined upon making it a first class station (where every train stops), the inhabitants came forward in a very spirited manner, and at their own expense formed a new road direct to the town".

Tring station was originally intended as a destination of a branch of the Metropolitan Railway (MR). A short section of the branch from to  was built in 1887–89 before the MR chose to construct an alternative route across the Chilterns via Aylesbury instead. Although the MR continued to buy land between Chesham and Tring for some years after Chesham station opened, the route was never extended further and today Chesham remains as a branch line terminus of Transport for London's Metropolitan line.

Immediately north of the station, the line enters Tring Cutting, which allows it to cross the Chiltern Hills.

Current services
Tring lies on a major commuter route into central London and most West Coast Main Line train services run directly into London Euston. It is the terminus of many slower trains out of Euston and platform 4 provides a turnaround for these trains.

All services at Tring are operated by London Northwestern Railway.

The typical off-peak service in trains per hour is:
 * 4 tph to London Euston (2 semi-fast, 2 stopping)
 * 2 tph to Milton Keynes Central

During the peak hours, a number of additional services between Bletchley and London Euston call at the station.

A number of early morning and late evening services are extended beyond Milton Keynes Central to and from Northampton and Birmingham New Street.

On Sundays, the station is served by a half-hourly service between London Euston and Milton Keynes Central.

Connex South Central
In June 1997, Connex South Central began operating services between Gatwick Airport and Rugby via the Brighton and West London Lines that called at Tring with Class 319s. It was cut back to terminate at Milton Keynes in December 2000 before being withdrawn in May 2002 due to capacity constraints on the West Coast Main Line while it was upgraded.

Southern
Southern reintroduced the service in February 2009 with Class 377s operating initially operating from Brighton to Milton Keynes before being curtailed at its southern end at South Croydon and later Clapham Junction. In May 2022, Southern cut the service back to terminate at Watford Junction, thus ceasing to serve Tring.

Future services
In the London & South East Rail Utilisation Strategy document published by Network Rail in 2011, Tring was identified as a terminus of a possible northern extension of the Crossrail lines now under construction in central London. The report recommends the addition of a tunnel in the vicinity of the proposed station at Old Oak Common connecting the Crossrail route to the West Coast Mainline. The diversion of rail services through central London would enable a direct link from stations such as Tring to West End stations such as and would alleviate congestion at Euston station; Crossrail services currently planned to terminate at Paddington due to capacity constraints would also be able to continue further west, allowing for a more efficient use of the line. This proposal has not been officially confirmed or funded, although an announcement made in August 2014 by the transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin indicated that the government was actively evaluating the possibility of extending Crossrail as far as Tring and Milton Keynes Central.

title: Tring railway station