text:
George Adams (musician)

George Rufus Adams (April 29, 1940 – November 14, 1992) was an American jazz musician who played tenor saxophone, flute and bass clarinet. He is best known for his work with Charles Mingus, Gil Evans, Roy Haynes and in the quartet he co-led with pianist Don Pullen, featuring bassist Cameron Brown and drummer Dannie Richmond. He was also known for his idiosyncratic singing.

Biography
George Adams was born in Covington, Georgia, on April 29, 1940. He first started playing piano at the age of eleven and switched to tenor saxophone in high school. Later on, he went study at the Clark College and got lessons on flute by Wayman Carver. As a teenager, George Adams frequently gained performance experience by playing with local R&B bands. In 1961, he accompanied singer Sam Cooke on a tour. At this point, Adams was based out of Cleveland where he spent a great deal of time studying and working with organ trios alongside pianist and organist, Bill Doggett. The two men played a form of music that combined rhythm and blues with jazz. In 1968, he decided to expand his career and move to New York City to participate in the city's growing jazz scene. A year later, George Adams toured with Roy Haynes, playing with him until 1973. Shortly after, he performed with Art Blakey, before joining Charles Mingus' band. His partnership with Mingus lasted until 1976.

Mingus (1973–76)
George Adams' first appearance with Mingus was on Mingus Moves with Ronald Hampton, Dannie Richmond, and Don Pullen in 1973. Later on, Adams went to perform in Mingus at Carnegie Hall, Changes One and Changes Two. He also appeared on Mingus Moves (1973) and other albums. 1975, while touring Europe with Mingus, he made his first recordings under his own name with Don Pullen, Dannie Richmond and bassist David Williams. Adams also began a working relationship with Gil Evans that lasted until 1978 that same year.

Gil Evans (1975–78)
Adams' first appearance with Evans was on his album The Gil Evans Orchestra Plays the Music of Jimi Hendrix, which was dedicated to the compositional efforts of rock guitarist Jimi Hendrix. The album features orchestral versions of songs such as Angel, Castles Made of Sand and Voodoo Child. George Adams continued to record with Gil Evans throughout 1975 by contributing to his album There Comes a Time.

McCoy Tyner
In 1976, Adams began to performing on and off with pianist McCoy Tyner until the late 1980s. The following year, George performed with trumpeter Marvin Hannibal Peterson at the Antibes Jazz Festival in Antibes, France. He appeared on Tyner's album The Greeting in 1978, alongside bassist Charles Fambrough and drummer Sonship.

George Adams/Don Pullen Quartet (1979–92)
In 1979, Adams and Pullen began to co-lead a quartet with Dannie Richmond and bassist Cameron Brown. In December 1979, George recorded the album Paradise Space Shuttle with his personal quintet that featured pianist Ron Burton, drummer Al Foster, bassist Don Pate and percussionist Azzedin Weston.

Adams' contributions to his ensemble were best heard on Paradise Space Shuttle 's title track. After a brief introduction, he enters the arrangement playing a disjointed and primal melody. He then plays a more traditional bebop figure before supplementing it with a strident motif. He continues to utilize several different textures throughout the song, such as multiphonics, blues riffs and phrased melodic devices. The result of all this is a performance that includes a multitude of saxophone history into four and a half minutes.

In 1980, Adams and Dannie Richmond recorded the album Hand to Hand for the Soul Note label. The album featured trombonist Jimmy Knepper, pianist Hugh Lawson and bassist Mike Richmond. In August 1980, Adams and Pullen recorded the album Earth Beams. The ensemble demonstrated its best on the album's title track. Adams' immediate performance provides a great deal of melodic presence throughout the song. George's deep resonance helps to thicken the harmonic quality of the song. The fundamentals of the ensemble are also anchored perfectly by Dannie Richmond.

In 1983, Adams started to expand on his career as a sideman by recording with trombonist Craig Harris on his album Black Bone. The following year, George recorded as a member of the Mingus Dynasty at the Village Vanguard. In April 1985, Adams and Pullen recorded the album Live at Montmartre, but it wasn't released until 2000, and featured a guest appearance by guitarist John Scofield. The group is quite noteworthy on the song Well, I Guess We'll Never Know.

After a brief introduction from Richmond, the ensemble goes into a variation of Rhythm Changes with a different take on the bridge. The unison line of Adams and Scofield gives the overall melodic stance of the song more body and power. During his solo, Adams shadows Pullen's "sheets of sound" solo by performing with the same bravado and style. The addition of Scofield adds more of a foundation for George to work off of with the outcome being an even more confident melodic statement.

The following year, Adams and Hannibal Peterson recorded the album More Sightings for the Enja label. In 1987, George recorded the album Where Were You? with the group Orange Then Blue. It featured trumpeter Ken Cervenka, trombonist Peter Cirelli and French horn player Gunther Schuller, amongst others. He then became a member of the band Phalanx that same year, alongside drummer Rashied Ali, bassist Sirone and guitarist James Blood Ulmer and released the album, Original Phalanx.

In 1988, Richmond died and the Adams/Pullen group briefly replaced him with drummer Lewis Nash, then disbanded. Adams then formed a new quartet with Cameron Brown, Hugh Lawson and drummer Gregory Hutchinson. The same year, George recorded an album of ballads and spirituals entitled Nightingale, alongside Lawson, Sirone and drummer Victor Lewis. The album features renditions of "What a Wonderful World", "Moon River", and "Ol' Man River." 1988 also saw the release of the Phalanx album, In Touch.

He died in New York at the age of 52 after an illness. He had been experiencing breathing difficulties for the last year.

Playing style

Adams and Don Pullen shared a musical vision and their quartet straddled the range from R&B to the avant-garde. (The quartet was sometimes known as the "George Adams–Don Pullen Quartet", and sometimes as the "Don Pullen–George Adams Quartet".) After Adams' death, Pullen dedicated to his memory the 1993 CD Ode To Life, recorded by his African-Brazilian Connection, and in particular the ballad "Ah George, We Hardly Knew Ya".

One of Adams' last recordings was America on the Blue Note label. This album consists of classic American songs like "Tennessee Waltz", "You Are My Sunshine" and "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" as well as a few original songs that articulate Adams' positive view of his country and the gifts it had given him. It also includes "The Star-Spangled Banner" and "America the Beautiful".

Adams was a member of the band that played Epitaph by Charles Mingus.

As leader

 * Jazz a Confronto 22 (Horo, 1975)
 * Suite for Swingers (Horo, 1976)
 * Paradise Space Shuttle (Timeless Muse, 1979)
 * Sound Suggestions (ECM, 1979)
 * Hand to Hand – with Dannie Richmond (Soul Note, 1980)
 * Melodic Excursions – with Don Pullen (Timeless, 1982)
 * Gentlemen's Agreement – with Dannie Richmond (Soul Note, 1983)
 * More Sightings – with Hannibal Peterson (Enja, 1984)
 * Nightingale (Blue Note, 1989)
 * America (Blue Note, 1989)
 * Old Feeling (Something Else, 1991)

As the George Adams-Don Pullen Quartet

 * All That Funk (Palcoscenico, 1979)
 * More Funk (Palcoscenico, 1979)
 * Don't Lose Control (Soul Note, 1979)
 * Earth Beams (Timeless, 1981)
 * Life Line (Timeless, 1981)
 * City Gates (Timeless, 1983)
 * Live at the Village Vanguard (Soul Note, 1983)
 * Live at the Village Vanguard Vol. 2 (Soul Note, 1983)
 * Decisions (Timeless, 1984)
 * Live at Montmartre – with John Scofield (Timeless, 1985)
 * Breakthrough (Blue Note, 1986)
 * Song Everlasting (Blue Note, 1987)

With Phalanx
 * 1986 Got Something Good for You (Moers Music)
 * 1987 Original Phalanx (DIW)
 * 1988 In Touch (DIW)

As sideman
With Gil Evans
 * There Comes a Time (RCA, 1975)
 * Priestess (Antilles, 1977)
 * Gil Evans Live at the Royal Festival Hall London 1978 (RCA, 1979)
 * 1981 Lunar Eclypse (live in Europe 1981)
 * Live at Sweet Basil (Gramavision, 1984 [1986])
 * Live at Sweet Basil Vol. 2 (Gramavision, 1984 [1987])
 * 1987 Live at Umbria Jazz: Volume 1 and 2

With Craig Harris With Roy Haynes With Cecil McBee With Charles Mingus
 * Black Bone (Soul Note, 1983)
 * 4 Play (JMT, 1991)
 * Hip Ensemble (Mainstream, 1971)
 * Senyah (Mainstream, 1972)
 * Mutima (Strata-East, 1974)
 * Mingus Moves (Atlantic, 1973)
 * Mingus at Carnegie Hall (Atlantic, 1974)
 * Changes One (Atlantic, 1974)
 * Changes Two (Atlantic, 1974)

With New York Unit
 * Oleo (CBS/Sony, 1989)
 * Blue Bossa (Paddle Wheel, 1990)
 * Tribute to George Adams (Paddle Wheel, 1991)

With Don Pullen
 * Jazz a Confronto 21 (Horo, 1975)
 * Tomorrow's Promises (Atlantic, 1977)

With James Blood Ulmer
 * Revealing (In + Out, 1977)

With McCoy Tyner
 * The Greeting (Milestone, 1978)
 * Horizon (Milestone, 1979)
 * Things Ain't What They Used to Be (Blue Note, 1989)

With Ravi Shankar
 * Jazzmine (Polydor, 1980)

title: George Adams (musician)


text:
Talk:TNT (American TV network)

Untitled
TNT has been overlaping the credits of Law and Order with the beginning sequence of another episode after it, should we add that along with a trivia section? --SuperDude 00:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Heres an idea for ya. How bout you stop running CHARMED. because its fake an sucks. you need to air more super natural. now thats a show that everyone watchs. SO no more charmed more supernatural. Get got it good Mountainman01 (talk) 13:31, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Images
THANK YOU!!! Those logo's weren't necessary, only TNT if anything should've been there

Why oh why have they taken The Lost World off on Mon.Tues.& Wed. only showing it 3 times week?

I work 12 hour shifts and I looked forward to watching the Lost World in the mornings at 6.00am. Why did they take it off the air? Would they consider putting it back.

Fair use rationale for Image:Tnt tv logo.svg
Image:Tnt tv logo.svg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Centralized TV Episode Discussion
Over the past months, TV episodes have been redirected by (to name a couple) TTN, Eusebeus and others. No centralized discussion has taken place, so I'm asking everyone who has been involved in this issue to voice their opinions here in this centralized spot, be they pro or anti. Discussion is here. Even if you have not, other opinions are needed because this issue is affecting all TV episodes in Wikipedia. --User: (talk) 02:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Work For Life Foundation November 30, 2008
Link titleWork for Life is a new foundation started by a disabled veteran for the training and employment of other disabled veterans.

These veterans who can work together just as they lived and fought together can understand and empathize with those who have shared experiences.

Theirs is a story that must be told.

Please review the wonderful mission of these veterans.  www.w4lp.org

WTF???????!!!!!!!!!!!
So "International European, Australian, Latin American, Spanish and Asian versions of TNT were launched in the 1990s..." Where the hell do you yanks think is Spain??? Africa??? (or maybe Mars?):-S

85.54.191.164 (talk) 21:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Somebody needs to take a chillpill. 24.48.160.108 (talk) 16:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Shows shows shows
Yo why not have the SI Swimsuit Issue specials listed in the shows the network airs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cooly123 (talk • contribs) 00:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Heres an idea for ya. Stop showing charmed. Its fake an sucks an old. Supernatural is the show you need to air more. Thats the show everyone watchs. So no more charmed. More supernatural. Got it get it good Mountainman01 (talk) 13:35, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Proposed name change of TNT (TV Channel) and TNT (TV station)
Please see Talk:TNT to read and reply to this proposal, thanks. Ubcule (talk) 15:21, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

The Mentalist
The article mentions that TNT has announced that it will air The Mentalist, but as of now, it is already airing it. So, leave it just mentioning the announcement or update it saying that it began airing the show on (whatever date)? Brinkley32 (talk) 00:15, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move (2012 discussion)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: article not moved Armbrust, B.Ed. WrestleMania XXVIII The Undertaker 20–0  02:00, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

TNT (TV channel) → TNT (U.S. TV channel) – There is a Russian TNT as well, and this is not the primary topic, so it should really be moved. 68.44.51.49 (talk) 23:17, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Note that the Russian Wikipedia's article about the Russian channel is titled "ТНТ", despite the fact that this could (by the same logic) refer to the American channel and numerous other things. Meanwhile, "TNT" redirects to their article about the American channel. (Its association with the "TNT" name evidently takes precedence there, so it's rather odd to assert that it doesn't here.) Like us, they include hatnotes leading to a disambiguation page. It makes sense for them, and it makes sense for us. —David Levy 00:08, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The Russian channel is called "ТНТ" (Cyrillic Te En Te).  "TNT" is merely a Latin transliteration, not the actual name under which the channel operates.
 * Oppose. In addition to agreeing with David Levy's comments, the page history also indicates that the article has been moved back and forth between "TNT" and "THT". Since that has been disputed, I would rather be comfortable with the status quo and having the American channel be the 'primary' topic for "TNT (TV channel)". Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:22, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. As above.  In addition, I can't imagine that the American channel is not the primary topic if one qualifies the search as a television channel.  This seems to be more about some sort of uniformity than actual ease of access or topic primacy.  --Drmargi (talk) 07:31, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

TNT airing policies
Think people would be interested to know TNT's approach to scheduling and advertising in shows.

TNT has long been famous (infamous?) for both their heavy re-use of shows and their unusually long commercial breaks.

TNT will often replay a particular movie back-to-back with itself, or will show the same movie several nights in a row, and will re-used the movie multiple times over a short period of time. I have an industry friend that said this was a "slightly sleazy" approach to programming where they buy the rights for a short period of time and milk it for everything it's worth.

TNT also seemed to pioneer the approach of delaying advertising in a movie for upwards of 30 minutes into a broadcast before the first break, but increasing the frequency as the show nears completion, often to the point where there is more advertising than movie towards the end of a broadcast. This is more apparent now that some TNT broadcasts are available online with advertisement placeholders as a plainly-visible series on the shuttle bar.

Furthermore, as I grew up with TNT i noticed that the average advertisements on other channels was almost always 2 minutes, while TNT would often spend 4 or 5 minutes. It seems to have gotten significantly longer as the years have passed. I timed a commercial break in X-Men Origins that was nine minutes long, followed by four minutes of the movie before the another eight minute break!

I can find discussions of these topics but I can't find references - does anyone have anything definitive? 98.254.50.29 (talk) 14:09, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 2013

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 22:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

 * TNT (TV channel) → TNT (TV network)

– As per the relevant articles, "television channel" refers to a broadcast frequency or number in program guides. "Television network" is the right term for the content provider. --Relisted. --  tariq abjotu  03:22, 21 September 2013 (UTC) Netoholic @ 06:24, 9 September 2013 (UTC) Bes2224 (talk) 03:25, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose this is a single programming channel, not a set of stations, so it is still a (cable) channel. A content provider would be a studio/production company/distributor. -- 70.24.244.158 (talk) 03:21, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Netoholic. Even if you claim its a cable channel, the way this stub is written is: "A cable channel is a television network available via cable television." So yeah, network is the correct term here. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:34, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As well, I would suggest whatever the outcome of this discussion be, be applied to TBS (U.S. TV channel) and any other pages worded as such. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:34, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ? – But cable network redirects to cable channel – A cable channel is a television network... – so it makes no difference. Undo this move first? – Wbm1058 (talk) 19:38, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose – per Category:English-language television stations in the United States which has many channels and networks. No compelling reason to change the status quo. – Wbm1058 (talk) 19:49, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose per Wbm1058. I'm extremely surprised there seems to be no standard naming guideline for cable channels. Theoldsparkle (talk) 18:12, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support In agreement with Favre1fan93's statement.
 * Support – I tend to associate "station" with any over-the-air broadcaster with call letters and "network" as a cable or satellite channel. Obviously, the WikiProject needs to tighten up the definition.  Senator2029 ➔ “Talk”  02:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Note: It was mentioned that Category:English-language television stations in the United States contains a mix of "TV channel" and "TV network" and "the WikiProject needs to tighten up the definition." Following a period of haphazard terminology, we actually settled on "TV channel" years ago (and in the interest of full disclosure, I'll mention that I participated in that process). Most current instances of "TV network" resulted from recent undiscussed moves, performed primarily by the user behind the above request. —David Levy 04:38, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

History section needs a bit of update re: adult content
One noticeable and notable change to TNT's programming in the last few years is that a number of its original scripted series include levels of sexual explicitness and violence that was unheard of on TNT or TBS only a few years ago. Recent examples include Claws and Animal Kingdom. This change in programming policy I think is worth mention as it's a reflection of how basic cable networks are forced to become more sexually explicit and violent to keep up with HBO and the streaming services where the majority of original scripted programming is of this nature. 68.146.233.86 (talk) 06:03, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 18 October 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to TNT (U.S. TV network). Nom makes a good case for adding "U.S." for disambiguation, others makes a good case for changing "channel" to "network" for accuracy. Jenks24 (talk) 09:21, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

TNT (TV channel) → TNT (U.S. TV channel) – I would like to reopen this move request back five years later. The main reason I would like to see this article moved is because the Russian channel is "considered to be one of the five most popular TV channels in Russia". I do not speak Russian myself, but if this true, then comparatively, Russian TNT is a federal channel, while American TNT is a cable channel, not a big channel like ABC or NBC. Plus, American TNT went by its full name, Turner Network Television, until 1995, and Russian TNT was launched only three years later. So while TNT is more known on the English Wikipedia as it is an American channel, I cannot see this as a primary topic "TV channel"-wise. JE98 (talk) 02:40, 18 October 2017 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 04:23, 25 October 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. — usernamekiran (talk)   18:33, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

 * Oppose - To begin with, this article details a network as defined by WP:NC-BC (because they operate multiple streams of content like cable, web, and mobile/app) and so the correct title should be TNT (TV network). It is |TNT_(TV_channel) vastly more pageviews than the Russian network, but even that being the case, I would support a move to TNT (U.S. TV network) but never to 'channel'. -- Netoholic @ 06:06, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Quite frankly, it’s obvious why this has more page views, because it’s the English Wikipedia. But in Russia, their TNT is more popular than when we talk about our TNT. JE98 (talk) 20:25, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Right, and I support a move to TNT (U.S. TV network) to clarify the disambiguation. "channel" is what I object to. If you want to modify your move request to address that problem so that the title complies with the intent behind WP:NC-BC, that might help. -- Netoholic @ 04:10, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * @Netoholic I noticed your request for moving it to "network" four years ago. However, it seemed to have been rejected then, so I cannot promise your hopes will be the ending outcome four years later. I'm neutral when it comes to channel vs. network, but my main concern is putting "U.S." in front of it, so I'm going to take your argument as a support for "U.S." in front at least. Again, for future comments, "U.S." in front is my concern. JE98 (talk) 18:51, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose – better move would be to TNT (TV network). Dicklyon (talk) 02:38, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Again, "network" over "channel" is not my concern. "U.S." in front is my concern. If you want "network" instead of "channel", then you can set up the request after this one closes. JE98 (talk) 15:36, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment the article currently discusses other channels such as "TNT Latin America", but the entire international section has no working references. I have concerns about how the international feeds of US cable channels are handled project-wide.  I'm also not sure if it should be "U.S." or "American", separately from the "network/channel" debate.  And the corporate ownership has changed multiple times, so that's not a reasonable disambiguator. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 03:44, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Having sister channels in other countries gives even more legitimacy to the use of "network" in the disambiguation. -- Netoholic @ 08:32, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 12 August 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. As referenced in the discussion below, precedence enforces the current title. There may be a larger discussion to be had somewhere to change the standardization of the disambiguators (possibly at the talk page at WP:NCTV), but that would be a discussion with a larger scope than one move request (such as this one) can cover. (non-admin closure)  Steel1943  (talk) 22:23, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

TNT (American TV network) → TNT (American TV channel) – TNT is a channel, not a network. —ÐW (talk/contribs) 22:12, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 01:36, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Procedural contest: consensus was for "network" at Talk:TNT (American TV network). —Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 22:20, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * What? —ÐW (talk/contribs) 00:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose per WP:NCBC. "Channel" is largely deprecated. -- Netoholic @ 04:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment – This is a noble, but pointless, effort (for one, specifically because of the activity of Netoholic on this topic, and his single-handed editing of WP:NCBC in support of his views), but I will once again point out that his argument that "channel" is largely deprecated is at best inaccurate, and his contention that everything is a "TV network" is flat out wrong. But the real problem, as it often is, is ignorance in WP:RS reporting calling everything a "network" when in fact most "cable networks" are not "TV networks" in any meaningful sense of the term. But most editors on Wikipedia won't invoke WP:ONUS sensibly for something like this, so the incorrect "network" moniker is likely to stick... FWIW. So, I would support this if we could get some consensus to disambiguate cable channels sensibly, but I doubt it will happen. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:43, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:TNT (American TV network)


text:
Talk:Gooseberry

Despite the previous anonymous edit, it *is* true that the kiwifruit is still referred to as the Chinese gooseberry in Australia, at least in places - I've seen it so labelled in shops - presumably a symptom of Aussie/Kiwi rivalry. seglea 00:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Separate Genus?
The article duly notes that some taxonomists prefer not to put gooseberries in Ribes. As a statement of fact I think this is fine. I think it's right that the article not take sides in this debate (though in real life I think most people have already reached the right conclusion on this one ). However, I don't feel comfortable with the quasi-editorialising phrase "this seems inappropriate" in the second paragraph of the article. I suspect this is not NPOV, but it's difficult for me to tell, as I'm not neutral in this debate. Unless anyone has an objection, I'd like to rewrite the relevant sentence in what I hope will be a more neutral way. I'll wait a couple of days for feedback before acting, though.RomanSpa 01:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

American Gooseberry?
This article ignores the species native to North America, Ribes hirtellum.

67.169.70.77 (talk) 23:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

If I were doing a report on this species, I would not look here. I would need a species native to the USA, like Ribes Hirtellum.
 * Good point, this page shouldn't be called Gooseberry, it covers only one of several species, a species that is so susceptible to disease that it has had to be cross-bred with several of the American species. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 20:57, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

--WinifredJ (talk) 23:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)WinifredJ

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging
This article talk page was automatically added with WikiProject Food and drink banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here. Maximum and carefull attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories, but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns, please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 18:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Where's the Article?
When I go to [] there's no article. What happened to it?--Toepoaster (talk) 18:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Clipped from article
The following was added to a figure caption by 106.51.142.229:

1. The latin name for the Gooseberry is Ribes uva-crispa. 2. It is not the same plant as the Indian Gooseberry, Chinese Gooseberry (Kiwi Fruit) or Barbados Gooseberry (a Cactus) 3. Gooseberries produce fruits in various colours including green, white and red depending on variety. 4. It is not unusual for bushes to crop for at least twenty years. 5. One serving of 100g raw gooseberries contains 40 Kcals. 6. One ancient belief tells how fairies would shelter from danger in the pickly bushes. This is how gooseberries became known as fayberries. 7. Competitive gooseberry growing was very popular, until the 1st world war there were 170 shows in the north of England. 8. Egton Bridge, eight miles from Whitby, is the setting for the oldest surviving gooseberry show in the country, established in 1800. The show is held on the first Tuesday in August each year by the Egton Bridge Old Gooseberry Society. Winning gooseberries can be the size of golf balls. 9. The classic Gooseberry Fool recipe has its origins in Tudor times. 10. The gooseberry has been crossed with the blackcurrent to produce the jostaberry.

I'm only here quickly, but maybe some info here is useful? GyroMagician (talk) 23:23, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Or maybe it was a direct copy/paste from Pickles & Preserves GyroMagician (talk) 23:52, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Which is a fairly poor copy/hack from Egton Gooseberry Show - sigh. GyroMagician (talk) 23:55, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Etymology
The first sentence in the section "Etymology" reads,

 * "The "goose" in "gooseberry" has usually been seen as a corruption of either the Dutch word kruisbes or the allied German Krausbeere, or of the earlier forms of the French groseille."

If the final syllable in the Dutch "kruisbes" and the German "Krausbeere", that is, "bes" and "beere", mean "berry", then the initial phrase of the sentence

 * The "goose" in

should be removed because "gooseberry" appears to be a corruption of the entire word "kruisbes" or "Krausbeere".

If that phrase is removed, then the subject of the next sentence should be amended to read:

"Alternatively, the word "goose"...". – CorinneSD (talk) 21:00, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Etymology
The following paragraph appears in the section "Etymology":

 * "It is also possible that it might be a corruption of "goods berry" (since that is what the Old English fēāberige literally means - see above in 'Distribution'), although what connection there may be to 'goods' is no longer known."

Is it possible that the corruption went in the opposite direction? That is, the word "gooseberry" was corrupted to "goods berry" and then to fēāberige? – CorinneSD (talk) 21:09, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

What do they taste like?
Whole article on cultivation, etymology, characteristics...what does a gooseberry taste like" -2001:999:32:103F:246C:730C:F2F8:18DF (talk) 09:33, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

 * As someone who grows and loves to eat gooseberries, I can honestly only answer that they taste like gooseberries. When not fully ripe they are sharp/tart; most cultivars, especially those with red coloured berries, are quite sweet when fully ripe, although still with a slightly tart under-taste. But that's about all I can say. What do strawberries taste like? What do raspberries taste like? What does rhubarb taste like? How do you describe tastes? Peter coxhead (talk) 12:54, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

 * I think they taste like kiwifruit. Plant surfer  14:14, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Certainly there's some kind of similarity to kiwis that aren't very ripe; passionfruit has also been suggested to me, although I wouldn't say that myself. They don't taste like blackcurrants or red currants, although there's some of the underlying sharpness, and like cranberries, they can be used unsweetened to make accompaniments to meat or fish. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:25, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Name of article needs to be changed
There are two prominent species in the genus Ribes: Ribes hirtellum, the American Gooseberry, and Ribes grossularia, the European Gooseberry.

Since this article is only about grossularia, it should be titled "European gooseberry".

Or better yet, the article should be expanded to include both species, in which case the current title would be appropriate.

I can add material about hirtellum, but I don't know how to change the title.

Any takers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 22:47, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree: this article is primarily about the European gooseberry, and should be renamed as such.  Or, it should be expanded to include the American gooseberry, which is far more widespread than simply "scattered locations in North America."  I grew up in the northeastern US, and Ribes hirtellum was everywhere -- upstate New York; Pennsylvania; Vermont; New Hampshire; Massachusetts, and I even encountered it in Ohio and Ontario.  It was both cultivated and wild; we have a bush in our back yars.  It is also grown commercially in California, and has been for some years.

 * Please see https://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/gooseberry.html, among other sources.
 * 70.89.176.249 (talk) 19:41, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Gooseberry distribution (origin)
It is written down in the article "It is native to Europe, northwestern Africa, west, south and southeast Asia". Check the real native distribution of this species, please, because I don't really think this terrain is such distinct so "Southeast Asia" is rather mistake and it should be "Southwest Asia" instead. As West Asia we may regard western Siberia or just Ural Mountains. The Near East where gooseberry is present is more frequent called "Southwest Asia". Maciek.Wikipedysta (talk) 18:30, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree, but can't find a source that clearly defines the Asian region of origin. There doesn't seem to be a good source providing a synthesis of origin across the wide geographic area implied by reference #3. --Zefr (talk) 20:41, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I suspect it's not clear what its native distribution was. The Flora of North America entry gives it as native only to "w, c Europe (including Great Britain); n Africa" and introduced into North America and other parts of northern Europe. However, Stace's Flora of the British Isles considers it to be introduced and then naturalized in Britain. Around where I live in the English Midlands, we find apparently wild gooseberry bushes with small fruits that look like the wild species as well as ones much closer to cultivated forms. This source is the clearest I can find, and I think that its distribution "Europe, the Caucasus, and Northern Africa" is as likely to be correct as any. Elsewhere it's likely to be an escape from cultivation. Peter coxhead (talk) 07:16, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 12 August 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved  Megan Barris   (Lets talk📧)  05:11, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Gooseberry → Ribes uva-crispa – Dozens of common plant species are known colloquially as "gooseberry". Gooseberry should redirect to Ribes instead. Hyperik ⌜talk⌟ 23:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 01:52, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Some 200 Ribes species may be called gooseberry. Phyllanthus emblica and Physalis peruviana are also gooseberries. How will a move to Ribes uva-crispa clarify this diversity for non-botany users? Zefr (talk) 02:30, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I was unclear - gooseberry should never redirect to Ribes uva-crispa. The proposal is to move the current page content (and edit history), which seems primarily about a specific species, then to do something else with the remaining page called "gooseberry". —Hyperik ⌜talk⌟ 02:56, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose I'd rather gooseberry then become a DAB like Currant, or Ribes renamed to gooseberry since it's clearly the WP:COMMONNAME.--Ortizesp (talk) 02:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the genus Ribes is a clear primary topic for gooseberry, but I'm less interested in that portion of the move request. Given how common both currant and gooseberry are as names for the genus, I'm not sure there's a clear winner other than to continue to use the genus name itself. —Hyperik ⌜talk⌟ 02:56, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose Ribes uva-crispa is a species, and should have a "botanical species article". The cultivars grown as gooseberries for eating (like those I grow) are a distinctive topic for which "gooseberry" is (in Europe at least) the English common name (and for the US too in some sources – e.g. page 2 of ). Modern cultivars, like the Hinnonmäki series, resistant to American gooseberry mildew, are likely to be hybrids, particularly between Ribes uva-crispa and Ribes hirtellum (even though listed as Ribes uva-crispa by the RHS). So there should be an article at "Gooseberry" but it should be about the cultivars, not the species, which should have its own article at the scientific name. This is a common approach for crops. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:22, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * An afterthought: if "gooseberry" is too ambiguous in North America, then we could go down the "bird names" route and use the invented "European gooseberry", which can be sourced (e.g. here). Peter coxhead (talk) 06:27, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, "gooseberry" is the common name we use most frequently used for wild species of Ribes in the US and Canada. (I don't feel it's ambiguous here at all actually.) Perhaps a gooseberry cultivars page. —Hyperik ⌜talk⌟ 12:36, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, it would be very odd to me to use "gooseberry" to refer to the genus Ribes, since many sources put what I call "gooseberry" in Grossularia not Ribes, so blackcurrants and redcurrants are more obvious cultivated examples of the genus. ("Ribena" is made from blackcurrants, which in Britain makes the connection between blackcurrants and the genus clear even to non-botanists.) Quite how we construct an article title that works in an international English encyclopedia isn't clear to me, but definitely not by treating "gooseberry" as the English name for Ribes. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:41, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like DAB it is, unless someone wants to create a gooseberry page with content representing Ribes subg. Grossularia? (if the only species known as gooseberries are in that subgenus? - I don't know the answer to that at the moment.) —Hyperik ⌜talk⌟ 22:18, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Support some sort of move. Gooseberry (disambiguation) should take the base title. The history and content of this article pertain to cultivated gooseberries and should take a different title (not sure what is best). A new article at Ribes uva-crispa could be appropriate, but there isn't much content here that is relevant to the species. My initial knee-jerk reaction to seeing this RM was leaning oppose, but then I looked at the incoming links. I was expecting that linked articles would be about culinary dishes and populated places that grow gooseberry. Nope. There are a lot that are about wild growing Ribes species in North America (Yosemite_Valley, Hillsborough, California) and elsewhere Geography of Afghanistan), as well as way too many links from an Indian context that need further disambiguation (Aavakaaya, Srirangapatna). (I was today years old when I realized that there are multiple Phyllanthus species that are called gooseberries in India (e.g. Phyllanthus acidus and Phyllanthus emblica), and the concept of gooseberries in India is probably a huge mess with various vernacular name redirects that should be DABs or SIAs). Hyperik, as a North American, I call prickled species of Ribes gooseberries, and unarmed species currants. Ribes has two major vernacular names that hinge on morphology (but I haven't looked into how that matches up with subgenera). Plantdrew (talk) 03:05, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, outside North America and Europe there are quite different plants to which "gooseberry" is applied, including of course "Chinese gooseberry" for what I call "kiwis". (I seem to remember removing File:Gooseberries in China 01.jpg from the article more than once, because it's not at all clear that these are "gooseberries" in the sense of this article.) It seems that any small greenish and tart fruit that's not obviously anything else (e.g. not citrus) may be called or translated as "gooseberry". (Translation is relevant, because translators are rarely very botanically knowledgeable and make all kinds of mistakes.)
 * This makes article titles which would otherwise seem appropriate, like "Gooseberry (fruit)", problematic. It does seem to me from Google searches that in a culinary context in North America and Europe, "gooseberry" means "fruit from cultivated Ribes uva-crispa or its hybrids". But I can't think of a title that results from this! (A case with some similarities is "plantain", which has a pretty clear meaning in English-speaking countries where Musa cultivars aren't grown for consumption, but doesn't have such a meaning worldwide, which is why we ended up with "Cooking banana" as the least worst title for Musa fruits normally eaten cooked after a lot of debate and some input from banana researchers.) Peter coxhead (talk) 09:35, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose. This title should host an article about the various berries considered "gooseberries". Red   Slash  03:08, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Articles should be about one topic, not about names. "Gooseberry" is used, with qualifiers like "Chinese", etc., for completely unrelated fruits which do not constitute a topic, as per WP:NOTDICT. We're clear what the topics are, just not what the best titles are. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed, articles should never be about names. When a word has many meanings, that's the job of a dictionary, not Wikipedia. We can have an article on a genus or family of plants, but that's another matter. As for unqualified "Gooseberry", it's a well-established name for exactly one species, and the other unrelated fruits have been named after it, often with a qualifier. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:02, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you mean a well-established name for exactly one genus? Since there are several gooseberry species in my region (none of which are Ribes uva-crispa), if yr out in the woods, an unqualified "gooseberry" is only ever used for the genus Ribes as a whole, or when being specific about which species of gooseberry doesn't matter. —Hyperik ⌜talk⌟ 18:44, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose, largely per Peter Coxhead. Disregarding the other plants such as Chinese gooseberry for now, as as I don't think they elevate to primary topic status, the key takeaway seems to be that in Europe, gooseberries are mostly of the species Ribes uva-crispa, while in America they are often hybrids between Ribes uva-crispa and Ribes hirtellum. As such, with Ribes uva-crispa as the common species to both, and the fruit being very well known and basically the same thing but different cultivars, it makes sense to retain the article at Gooseberry, with discussion on the various regional differences and the hybrid versions there. That seems much more useful than having separate articles at less recognizable scientific titles, on what are fundamentally the same thing. As for the wild variants which are other species of Ribes, I'd also classify those as less relevant per PRIMARY TOPIC. All in all, I don't think the proposed move would be a help for readers. — Amakuru (talk) 07:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - Sounds like people want to create a standalone, non-taxon article about culinary and cultivated gooseberries. If someone can close this, I'll get started on splitting out the content about particular taxa. Thanks! —Hyperik ⌜talk⌟ 13:15, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose but no objection to Hyperik solution above. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:49, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

 * The content that relates to cultivated gooseberries remains here, when this is not now the topic of the article. It seems that cleaning up after the RfC was never properly done. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:52, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Interlanguage links need to be added
At the moment (June 2024) the article has language links only to the Swedish and Arabic Wikipedias. So for example there is no link to German Stachelbeere. But if you directly access the German Wikipedia article on gooseberry (de:Stachelbeere), you will find an interlanguage link not to this article but to the English Wikipedia article Ribes_uva-crispa. All this is quite counterintuitive. Most people will be looking for the gooseberry as food, but the current (currant?) Wikipedia article is not set up for common-sense usage. 109.145.9.210 (talk) 20:40, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Interlanguage links are now set up at Wikidata. This article is, correctly I believe, linked from . The English article Ribes uva-crispa is linked from, again correctly. The German wikipedia, for example, has only one article where we have two. But Wikidata only allows 1:1 links. So it's not possible for both our Gooseberry and Ribes uva-crispa articles to show a link to the same article in another language wiki. It's a fault in Wikidata in my view. (I've a longish essay on this at User:Peter coxhead/Wikidata issues.) Peter coxhead (talk) 09:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gooseberry


text: Talk:Manarola

title: Talk:Manarola


text:
Talk:Francisco Moreno

The original version of this article is from http://www.famousamericans.net/franciscomoreno/. RickK 00:02, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

This article doesn't mention one of the most important legacy of F.P. Moreno, the Natural Science Museum: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museo_de_La_Plata --AdrianMastronardi 20:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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Conquest of the Desert
This can't be right:

"He embarked on the first of the series of scientific expeditions that made him well known: a survey of Río Negro Territory, largely uncharted territory which had recently been made accessible by Argentina's Conquest of the Desert campaign in Patagonia. (Historically, it has been considered extremely controversial.) In January 1876, he reached Lake Nahuel-Huapi in the southern Andes, and on February 15, 1877, he discovered and baptized Lake Argentino."

Roca's conquest of the desert didn't start until 1878. Moreno explored these areas before: the dates show it to be so. He was exploring unpacified territory. The bold words are incorrect.Ttocserp 08:10, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Francisco Moreno


text:
Motörhead (album)

Motörhead is the debut studio album by English rock band Motörhead. It was released on 12 August 1977 by pub rock and early punk rock label Chiswick Records, one of the first for the label, and the band's only release under Chiswick. The album contains the "classic" Motörhead line-up of Lemmy Kilmister on bass and vocals, "Fast" Eddie Clarke on lead guitar, and Philthy Animal Taylor on drums. The sleeve artwork featured the debut of Snaggletooth, the War-Pig, the fanged face logo created by artist Joe Petagno that would become an icon of the band.

An earlier album, On Parole, was recorded in 1975 for United Artists, but was released in 1979.

Background
Motörhead hired lead guitarist "Fast" Eddie Clarke in March 1976, and he was originally to serve as the band's second guitarist along with Larry Wallis in what was intended to be a four-piece lineup, but Wallis left shortly after for his own reasons. Sensing that the fledgling band had dim prospects for success, Motörhead decided to disband after playing one final show at the Marquee Club in London in April 1977. Ted Carroll, founder of the upstart Chiswick Records label, knew Lemmy well from his rare 45 Record's store in London of which Lemmy was a frequent customer. Carroll decided to give the band a break and hosted what was to be their final performance at the Marquee on 1 April 1977. The decision was made to record the gig. As Clarke recalls in the documentary The Guts and the Glory: "'It was going to be our farewell gig. I said, Let's get a mobile down at least to record the fuckin' year and a half we've been together and put something on the fuckin' tape, you know? The problem with the Marquee was they wanted 500 quid for doing a recording at the Marquee. Well, that was out of the question in those days.'"

Feeling that the band had already seen its share of adversity, Carroll offered the band two days of studio time at Escape Studios in Kent, England, to record a single with producer John "Speedy" Keen. As Clarke explained to John Robinson of Uncut in 2015, the band finished the gig at the Marquee and drove straight to the studio in Kent for a weekend of recording: "'That was Friday night, so we had all Saturday and Sunday. We'd been playing these songs for a year, so we thought fuck it, we can do an album. In a few hours we had all the backing tracks down. Put the vocals down. Bit more speed, put some more guitars on. Few more beers – we were fucking steaming. Come Saturday night, we'd nearly finished it.'"

Recording
Due to the very limited studio time afforded to the band, the decision was made to re-record the unreleased United Artists album almost in its entirety; only "Fools" and "Leaving Here" weren't re-recorded at the Kent sessions. In addition, two new self-penned compositions, "White Line Fever" and "Keep Us on the Road", were added, as well as a cover of Tiny Bradshaw's "Train Kept A-Rollin". Three tracks on the album were actually composed by Lemmy while he was still a member of Hawkwind, "Motorhead", "Lost Johnny", and "The Watcher", the latter a psychedelic acoustic piece. Like the band name itself, the song "Motorhead" is a reference to speed – Lemmy's drug of choice at that time - and was coupled with the non-album track "City Kids" (a Larry Wallis composition from his Pink Fairies' days) for release as 7" and 12" singles. In his autobiography White Line Fever, Lemmy recalls working with producer Speedy Keen and engineer John Burns and the challenges arising from a lack of time: "'(They) were speeding out of their heads because they couldn't afford to go to sleep – they didn't have time, and they wanted to make an album as much as we did. They mixed twenty-four versions of Motörhead alone!'"

The band members were less than pleased with the finished product, and guitarist Clarke has referred to the album's muddled sound as "pretty dreadful". Four remaining tracks from the session were shelved until 1980, when they were released as the Beer Drinkers and Hell Raisers EP. In his memoir Lemmy noted: "'Once again it was cash-in time – for the record labels, at least. I've never recorded more than we need since! But having said that, I don't begrudge Ted Carroll that – he saved my band.'" The B-side and the EP tracks were later added as bonus material on the CD release.

Cover artwork
The sleeve artwork featured the debut of Snaggletooth, the War-Pig, the fanged face that would become an icon of the band and would appear on most of the band's album covers. Snaggletooth was created by artist Joe Petagno, who had earlier worked with Storm Thorgerson of Hipgnosis and had designed the Swan Song Records logo for Led Zeppelin. According to its creator, Snaggletooth represents a combination of a bear, a wolf and a dog skull with boar tusks. The original Motörhead album cover contained a swastika on the spike of the helmet, though it was removed from future copies of the album.

Release
The inner sleeve featured old and new photographs of the band and friends by longtime friend Motorcycle Irene, who took most of the 70's pictures of Motörhead, plus letters of thanks from Lemmy, Eddie and Phil. Advertisements for the album, single, and tour bore the words "Achtung! This Band Takes No Prisoners".
 * 12 August 1977 – UK vinyl – Chiswick, WIK2 – First 1000 printed black on silver foil sleeve. With inner sleeve.
 * 10 November 1979 – UK vinyl – Chiswick/EMI, CWK3008 – The first 10,000 copies pressed on white vinyl, with "White vinyl fever" written on cover. Later versions had a gold stamped promo sleeve.
 * 1981 – UK vinyl – Big Beat, WIK 2 – Red "Motörhead" lettering and "Includes inner sleeve with rare pix" written on cover. With inner sleeve. Black, clear and red (16,000 copies) vinyl editions.
 * Big Beat have also issued a Direct Metal Mastered LP edition.
 * One-sided test pressings (used in the trade; not mis-presses) escaped the pressing plant and are on the market.
 * 1988 – UK CD – Big Beat, CDWIK 2 – Red "Motörhead" lettering and "Plus 5 more headbanging tracks!!!" written on cover. With Bonus tracks.
 * 2 April 2001 – UK CD – Big Beat, CDWIKM 2 – Red "Motörhead" lettering. With bonus tracks. Liner notes by Ted Carroll.
 * 16 July 2007 – UK vinyl – Devils Jukebox, DJB006LP – 180 g vinyl replica of original silver foil vinyl edition limited to 666 copies. First 100 with one sided 12" silver vinyl featuring the 5 bonus tracks, and poster.
 * 8 October 2007 – UK CD – Big Beat, CDHP021 – CD replica of original silver foil vinyl edition limited to 3,000 copies.

Critical reception
Alex Ogg of AllMusic wrote: "Though only a minor chart success, Motörhead patented the group's style: Lemmy's rasping vocal over a speeding juggernaut of guitar, bass, and drums...no wonder the punks liked them." Many critics have noted that the album is not as polished as later works like Bomber and Ace of Spades.

Assessing the album and its debut single in 2011, biographer Joel McIver stated: "with the benefit of hindsight it's glaringly obvious that neither comes close to capturing the group's mesmerizing live sound."

Kris Needs of Loudersound praises the album, saying "Although the roller-coaster sound can be uneven and The Watcher still embedded in west London space-rock, Motörhead still sounds like the kamikaze rampage of desperate men granted one last shot, surging through speed-driven carnage to snatch triumph from oblivion."

Personnel
Adapted from the album's liner notes.

Motörhead

 * Lemmy – lead vocals, bass
 * "Fast" Eddie Clarke – guitar, backing vocals, co-lead vocals (on "Beer Drinkers and Hell Raisers" and "I'm Your Witch Doctor")
 * Phil "Philthy Animal" Taylor – drums

Production

 * John "Speedy" Keen – producer
 * John Burns – engineer
 * Adam Skeaping – mastering
 * Motörhead – executive producers
 * Joe Petagno – album cover & Snaggletooth
 * Motorcycle Irene and Lensy – photography

title: Motörhead (album)


text:
Hillcrest High School (Queens)

Hillcrest High School is a four-year public high school in Jamaica Hills, Queens, New York City. The school is operated by the New York City Department of Education.

As of the 2014–15 school year, the school had an enrollment of 3,289 students and 149.2 classroom teachers (on an FTE basis), for a student–teacher ratio of 22.0:1. There were 2,380 students (72.4% of enrollment) eligible for free lunch and 311 (9.5% of students) eligible for reduced-cost lunch.

The mascot is the hawk (changed from the Braves, the original mascot chosen when the school opened in 1971) and the school colors are violet and gray.

Athletics
The school's boys and girls' soccer team became division champions in the 06/07 and also the 07/08 season guided by Coach Asqui and captain Joao Azevedo. The school is also notable for its rigorous baseball program led by Coach Malave.

History
Stephen M. Duch was the school principal from 1996 to the beginning of 2014. In 2002 the school was listed as the most violent high school in the city. After his retirement, David T. Morrison, a graduate of Hillcrest and who served as the AP of English for several years, became the new principal.

On November 20, 2023, several hundred students of Hillcrest High School participated in a riot, with the goal of having a teacher fired for her participation in a rally supporting Israel. The teacher barricaded herself with the aid of fellow teachers, as they waited for the police to arrive. An NBC News article about the November 20 incident stated, "In another incident at the same school a week before that, students attacked a uniformed school safety officer, police said. The students responsible for the attack were taken into custody and charged, the NYPD shared on X, though their names were not immediately released and it was not known what charges they face. It also was not immediately clear whether the incidents were related, officials said. Elected officials sounded off on what occurred at the school, and how the administration handled the situation."

Notable alumni
This is a partial list of notable alumni of Hillcrest High School.
 * Fran Drescher (Class of 1975), actress, best known for her role on The Nanny. While there she was told to get voice lessons. Her character Fran Fine from The Nanny also graduated from Hillcrest.
 * Nina Foxx (Class of 1982), award-winning author, playwright, filmmaker, and female technologist who wrote the NAACP Image Award-nominated novel ''Momma: Gone'
 * Bianca Golden (Class of 2006), model, best known for America's Next Top Model (Cycle 9)
 * Sherrilyn Ifill (Class of 1980), President and director-counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund
 * Ray Romano (Class of 1975), actor, best known for his role as Ray Barone in Everybody Loves Raymond and Manny in all five of the Ice Age movies.

title: Hillcrest High School (Queens)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fixed font unix/:7100

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page, if it exists; or after the end of this archived section. The result of the debate was delete. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 02:12, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fixed font unix/:7100
Not sure if this is a speedy but sure looks like junk to me. Then again, I'm no Unix expert... I abstain due to lack of knowledge. Sasquatch′↔Talk↔Contributions 00:03, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC) Delete -- Nonnotable Sysop exotica. Messages like this are a dime a dozen on server computers, and they are all different on different machines or op systems. This is a joke on wiki. So sez my en-gin-earng degree. Both of them. [[User:fabartus || TalktoMe]] 04:00, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Send to /dev/null ... Uh, I mean delete. Troubleshooting info for a specific error message. This is a good example of how useful information is not always encyclopedic information.  Transwiki if we have a wikibook on this sort of thing, else delete...  Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd  00:24, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * rm (delete). --W(t) 01:17, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
 * Delete. I'm pretty certain this kind of stuff is covered somewhere in WP:NOT. Mr Bound 02:20, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * /man rm?: Delete. Geogre 02:36, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not suitable for wikipedia. Poli 06:54, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to wikibooks I'm sure they have soemthing on Unix. If I'm mistaken delete is also possible. Mgm|(talk) 09:13, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Transwiki if this can be cleaned up. JamesBurns 10:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to Wikibooks if enough context can be supplied, otherwise delete. Anyway this doesn't belong in an encyclopedia.   — J I P | Talk 10:32, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. I'm not sure it's encyclopedic enough for Wikibooks. Jamyskis Whisper, Contribs, Jamyskis 14:48, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * "Encyclopaedic enough for Wikibooks"? Wikibooks is a collection of free textbooks, manuals, and other instructional materials, not an encyclopaedia.  If there were a Troubleshooting Linux wikibook, this would be perfect for it.  Perhaps this could be a start. Uncle G 17:07, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to | here maybe? Rangek 18:28, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not useful enough for wikibooks.  It's a solution to a very uncommon problem that assumes an unusual system configuration.  --Carnildo 20:51, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. A lot of work needed for Wikibooks... but this definitely does not belong in Wikipedia. --Rschen7754 02:02, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, do not transwiki. There's no need to dump this stuff on Wikibook's doorstep. Wile E. Heresiarch 05:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * ''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be placed on a related article talk page, if one exists; in an undeletion request, if it does not; or below this section.


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Talk:Stillen

Untitled
For a May 2005 deletion debate over this page see Votes for deletion/Stillen

title: Talk:Stillen


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Cooley High School

Thomas M. Cooley High School is an abandoned high school located at the intersection of Hubbell Avenue and Chalfonte Street, on the northwest side of Detroit, Michigan. The three-story, Mediterranean Revival-style facility opened its doors on September 4, 1928.

The school was named in honor of Thomas M. Cooley, a nineteenth-century jurist and former Chief Justice of the Michigan Supreme Court. Cooley was also a charter member, and first chairman, of the Federal Interstate Commerce Commission.

Due to budget constraints and declining enrollment, Cooley High School was closed at the end of the 2009–2010 academic year. On September 30, 2017, a three-alarm fire severely damaged the auditorium and surrounding rooms.

The early years
Cooley High School's history dates to the late 1920s, when thousands of homes were built upon land acquired through Detroit's westernmost annexation efforts in the former Greenfield Township, and village of Strathmoor. Cooley High was constructed to accommodate a rapidly growing populace on the city's burgeoning northwest side.

The first five years of Cooley's existence was marked by rapid growth. In 1928, the student population stood at 1570, by 1932 the figure had climbed to 3750. That same year, noted author and motion picture celebrity, Frank Buck visited Cooley High School; Buck thrilled a packed auditorium audience with travelogues of recent African excursions.

In the early years, Cooley students enjoyed a diverse offering of extracurricular activities; including such pursuits as fencing, table tennis, indoor track and field, swimming and diving, speed skating and ice hockey. Throughout much of the twentieth century, in a wide variety of sports, Cooley student-athletes regularly finished at or near the top in the quest for city league (DPSSAL) supremacy.

Beyond the sporting venues of metropolitan Detroit, the Cardinals of Thomas M. Cooley High School will be remembered as one of the most successful programs in the history of Michigan interscholastic athletics.

1930s - 1940s
In 1932, the Cooley Cardinal football team won the Metropolitan League-Northern Division Championship; finishing the regular season at 7-0. In those seven games, only Mackenzie High School put points on the board versus the Cardinals. Three members of Cooley's legendary 1932 football team were selected to the Detroit News All-Metropolitan Team. That same school year, Cooley won the Detroit Public Secondary Schools Athletic League title in ice hockey and tennis; adding DPSSAL runner-up trophies in track and field and cross-country.

Claude Snarey, long time Cooley educator and track coach, was a six-time Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association track and field champion for Michigan Normal College (the forerunner of Eastern Michigan University). Between 1923 and 1926, Snarey won MIAA titles in the 100, 220 and 440-yard dash. Claude Snarey was a 1991 inductee to the EMU Athletic Hall of Fame; the football stadium at Livonia-Franklin High School is named in his honor.

During the 1941 football season, Coach Herb Smith led the Cooley Cardinals to a 9-0-1 record; Michigan sportswriters rewarded Cooley High with a consensus state championship.

1950s - 1960s
Future Major League Baseball All-Star Milt Pappas led Cooley to consecutive Metropolitan League Baseball Championships in 1956 and 1957. Milt won a total of 209 games during his 17-year professional career; he pitched a no-hitter as a member of the 1972 Chicago Cubs.

From 1954 through 1964, Cooley football teams posted an eleven-season record of 60-14-8; representing an impressive winning percentage of 81. As the 1960s unfolded, the Cardinals were a dominant force on the Detroit high school football scene. In 1961, Cooley finished 7-1; cracking the Associated Press Top-Ten rankings for the first time - ending the season rated tenth. The 1962 and 1963 teams were undefeated, producing a combined regular-season record of 15-0; both squads were ranked fourth in respective final AP polling.

Thanks in large measure to the guidance of Abe Eliowitz and Roger Parmentier, Cooley's football program rose to great heights during the 1950s and 60s. Eliowitz taught and coached at Cooley from 1947 until 1970. Prior to earning his teaching credentials, Abe was an All-American footballer at Michigan State University. Eliowitz also played five seasons in the Canadian Football League; he was inducted to the Canadian Football Hall of Fame in 1969. Roger Parmentier played collegiate football at Wayne State University; he was captain of the 1953 squad. To this day, Coach Parmentier's winning percentage is recognized as the best in DPSSAL football history; Roger was inducted to the Michigan High School Football Coaches Hall of Fame in 1989.

From 1960 to 1964, Coach Harold Lindsay's swimming and diving program won five consecutive DPSSAL crowns for Cooley High School. In statewide competition, at the 1962 Michigan High School Athletic Association championships, All-American William "Bill" Jennison won a silver medal in the 100-yard butterfly; while Cooley's 200-yard freestyle relay quartet finished in fourth place. One year later, at the 1963 state finals, Jennison struck gold with his national high school record time of :52.60 in the butterfly event; Bill's performance remained on the books as the MHSAA record until 1971. Jennison and fellow Cooley Cardinal, Joanne Scarborough competed at the 1964 US Olympic Trials.

John Pheney was an All-City swimmer and co-captain of Cooley's DPSSAL championship teams in 1963 and 1964; John placed 9th in the 100-yard backstroke at the 1963 MHSAA finals. Ten years later, Pheney coached Ann Arbor-Huron High School to the 1973 MHSAA team title in boys' swimming and diving; under Pheney's tutelage, Huron High was also MHSAA team runner-up in 1972, 1977 and 1980.

Other than Bill Jennison, the only Cardinal swimmer to make finals at a MHSAA championship was Robert Foley. By virtue of his 5th-place finish in the 200-yard individual medley and a 7th place showing in the 100-yard butterfly, Foley scored 17 team points for Cooley High at the 1967 state meet. Foley returned to the state swimming finals, in 1968; scoring 19 points for Cooley with a 5th in the individual medley and a 6th in the butterfly event.

1970s, 1980s, 1990s
Throughout Cooley's eighty-two year history, the men's basketball program enjoyed top-level success; the Cardinals were DPSSAL champions in 1973. During the late-1980s, in statewide competition, Cooley basketball reigned supreme; Coach Ben Kelso led the Cardinals to consecutive Michigan High School Athletic Association Championship titles in 1987, 1988, and 1989. Cooley won another DPSSAL basketball crown in 1992.

The 1982 Lady Cardinal basketball team won MHSAA District and Regional crowns; advancing all the way to the state tournament quarterfinal round versus five-time defending champion, Flint Northern High School.

Between 1975 and 1984, Cardinal football teams produced a 10-season record of 68-20 (.772). Cooley's 1980 squad went 9-0, earning a third place Associated Press ranking; the 1981 Cardinals finished 8-1, ending the season rated tenth.

Over the years, numerous Cooley track and field athletes have won individual DPSSAL and MHSAA gold medals; the Cardinals have also fared well in their quest for a state team title. In 1984 and 1985, Cooley's men finished as runners-up at the MHSAA Track and Field Finals. In 1991, Cooley High School brought home the MHSAA men's track and field championship trophy. At the 1991 championships, Cooley's 1600-meter relay team of Adams, David Norman, Johnson and Marco West established a MHSAA Class-A record of 3:16.05; the mark was not bettered until 2002.

2000s and Closure
By 1997 student enrollment was 1,400, a sharp decline from 3,400 in 1983. The closure of nearby Redford High School in 2007, which sent some students to Cooley briefly slowed declining enrollment, but by 2010 it was expected that enrollment would drop below 1,000 students.

The 1,000 seat auditorium was renovated in 2004, the towers restored in 2006, and the roof was replaced as part of $12.8 million dollars in improvements. Despite these efforts to modernize the building, DPS closed the school in June 2010, part of a closure of 42 schools due to low enrollment and high maintenance costs.

Notable alumni
Wayne Kramer - guitarist for MC5.

 * Milt Pappas (1957), former MLB pitcher; won 209 games during 17 seasons with Cincinnati, Baltimore and the Chicago Cubs
 * Robert L. Chapman (1939), editor of Roget's International Thesaurus
 * Anita Darian (1945), opera singer, soprano voice in The Tokens' 1961 hit "The Lion Sleeps Tonight"
 * Joe Ginsberg (1945), former MLB player (Detroit Tigers, Cleveland Indians, Kansas City Athletics, Baltimore Orioles, Chicago White Sox, Boston Red Sox, New York Mets)
 * Bill Roman (1947), former MLB player (Detroit Tigers)
 * Mike Ilitch (1947), Former CHS shortstop who created the Little Caesar's Pizza empire; owner the Detroit Tigers and Detroit Red Wings.

 * Bob Langas (1948), played collegiate football at Wayne State; played professionally with the 1954 Baltimore Colts.
 * John McKinlay (1950), was a member of two United States Olympic Teams, participating in the 1952 Summer Olympics, Helsinki, Finland and the 1956 Summer Olympics Melbourne, Australia in the sport of Rowing (sport). McKinlay won a silver medal in the fours without coxswain with his twin brother Art McKinlay in the 1956 Summer Olympics Melbourne, Australia. McKinlay also won 6 US Rowing Championships and 8 Canadian Rowing Championships. McKinlay rowed out of the historic Detroit Boat Club and also attended and graduated from Boston University where he was Captain of the Crew in 1954 and 55. United States at the 1956 Summer Olympics
 * Art McKinlay (1950) Art McKinlay (January 20, 1932 – August 10, 2009) was an American     rower who competed in the 1956 Melbourne Summer Olympics. He was born in Detroit and is the twin brother of John McKinlay; both were 1950 graduates of Cooley High School. In 1956 along with his twin brother John, he was a crew member of the American boat that won the silver medal in the coxless fours event at the Melbourne Olympics. Rowing out of the Detroit Boat Club with his twin brother John, Art McKinlay won 6 US Rowing Championships and 8 Canadian Rowing Championships.
 * Marshall Rosenberg (1952) Rosenberg was the creator of Nonviolent Communication; he was also the founder and former Director of Educational Services for the Center for Nonviolent Communication, an international non-profit organization.
 * Milan Stitt (1959), Celebrated playwright, screenwriter and drama professor; best known for his play, The Runner Stumbles
 * James P. Hoffa (1959), All-City & All-State football player; lawyer; former President of International Teamsters Union
 * Barbara Tarbuck (1959), Professional television and cinematic actress; most recently General Hospital and Walking Tall.
 * Jem Targal (1965), bass guitarist and singer for the rock group Third Power.
 * Rich Fisher (1968), longtime Detroit Television News Anchorman with WXYZ, WJBK, and WKBD.
 * Rodolfo M. Foster (1969), (aka La Palabra), Afro-Cuban jazz musician/composer/impresario; contributor to the Salsa romántica genre
 * S. Epatha Merkerson (1970), renowned Emmy & Golden Globe Award-winning actress; star of NBC-TV series, Law & Order
 * Larry Fogle (1972), MHSAA Basketball Player of the Year; still holds DPSSAL single-game record of 73 points (vs. Cody High)
 * Ricky Lawson (1972), Noted session drummer; also toured with Michael Jackson on his "Bad" tour in 1987.
 * Roy Tarpley (1982), former NBA player
 * Anthony Watson (1982), basketball player
 * Willie Green (1999), former professional basketball player and current head coach of the New Orleans Pelicans.
 * Chris Floyd, former NFL player
 * Obie Trice, Rap Music artist
 * Lional Dalton (1994), Former NFL player.
 * Black Milk, hip-hop producer/rapper affiliated with Slum Village, Phat Kat, and Guilty Simpson
 * Raven Clay (born 1990), American hurdler

title: Cooley High School


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Talk:Juggy D

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 * Vanity, NN are not criteria for speedy deletion. Denni ☯ 00:04, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 18:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Juggy D


text: User talk:63.18.241.12

title: User talk:63.18.241.12


text: User:Cyprus~enwiki

title: User:Cyprus~enwiki


text: User talk:142.161.38.160

title: User talk:142.161.38.160


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File:Dali DiscoveryOfAmerica.jpg

Salvador Dalí, The Discovery of America by Christopher Columbus, 1959, oil on canvas, 410 x 284 cm, St. Petersburg, Florida: Salvador Dalí Museum.

http://salvadordalimuseum.org/collection/classic/discovery_of_america.php

Fair use in The Discovery of America by Christopher Columbus
Though this image is subject to copyright, its use is covered by the U.S. fair use laws because
 * 1) It illustrates an educational article about the painting that this image represents.
 * 2) The image is used as the primary means of visual identification of the article topic.
 * 3) It is a low-resolution image.
 * 4) Its inclusion in the article adds significantly to the article because the painting and its historical significance are the object of discussion in the article.
 * 5) It is not replaceable with an uncopyrighted or freely copyrighted image of comparable educational value.

title: File:Dali DiscoveryOfAmerica.jpg


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User talk:Petershaw

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! -- Infrogmation 00:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
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title: User talk:Petershaw


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Wrebbit

Wrebbit, Inc was a puzzle-making company best known for its Puzz-3D puzzles. The company was founded in Montreal, Quebec, by Paul Gallant, and marketed itself as "The Puzzle Innovators". Its namesake appears to stem from the fact that the company's mascot is a green frog, and "Wrebbit" is either an alternative spelling or possibly a play on words of the word ribbit.

In the late 1990s, 3-dimensional puzzles were a successful fad, leading to a rapid growth in the company. In 2001, the business was bought by Irwin Toy. When Irwin Toy filed for bankruptcy a year later, Gallant bought back the business and relaunched it in a much reduced state. In 2005, the business was bought by Hasbro, which moved the manufacture of Wrebbit's puzzles to its facility in East Longmeadow, Massachusetts, in 2006.

Gallant died on September 13, 2011. In 2012, Gallant's son and a partner who worked for Wrebbit revived the Wrebbit name and founded Wrebbit Puzzles, producing the same type of puzzle as Puzz-3D.

title: Wrebbit


text:
User talk:Snicket~enwiki

667 Dark Avenue
This page has gone through the votes for deletion process, and Wikipedia consensus was to delete it. Please do not recreate it. RickK 00:08, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

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title: User talk:Snicket~enwiki


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Superfudge

Superfudge is a children's novel by Judy Blume, published in 1980. It is the sequel to Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing and Otherwise Known as Sheila the Great and is the third in the Fudge series.

Plot
The Hatcher family has a new baby daughter in the beginning. Several months before they temporarily move from New York City to Princeton, New Jersey, she is born, named Tamara Roxanne, and called "The Baby" for weeks. Peter's 4-year-old brother, Fudge, is extremely jealous of her, who earns the nickname "Tootsie" from their mother Anne's cute speak and their grandmother Muriel's favorite old song. Peter deals with the fallout from Fudge's various problems, which include a spat with his teacher who refuses to use the name "Fudge". When she refuses to do so, he kicks her in the shin. He also attempts to get rid of Tootsie and is famous for his constant desire to involve himself in Peter's activities, specially with Peter's new friend, Alex Santo. In the end, the Hatchers decide to move back to New York City, a decision punctuated by Tootsie's first word which she learns while undergoing a diaper change.

Awards

 * Won – Books I Love Best Yearly: Early Readers Award (1990)-1991

Television
A Saturday morning television series based on Superfudge entitled Fudge ran for portions of two seasons on ABC in 1995. "Fudge Meets Ratface" was one of the episodes based on Chapter 6 of Superfudge, which was called "Farley Drexel Meets Ratface". Another episode, called "Uncle Feather", was based on Chapter 7: A Very Cultured Bird.

Feature film
In 2022, an animated feature film based on the book was put into production for Disney+, produced by Disney Television Animation and the Russo brothers's AGBO, with Amos Vernon and Nunzio Randazzo writing.

title: Superfudge


text: Category:Peers of the United Kingdom

title: Category:Peers of the United Kingdom


text: Category:Dukes in the Peerage of the United Kingdom


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Kogarah railway station

Kogarah railway station is located on the Illawarra line, serving the Sydney suburb of Kogarah. It is served by Sydney Trains T4 line services.

History
Kogarah station opened on 15 October 1884 on the same date as the Illawarra line from Redfern to Hurstville with two side platforms.

The station was upgraded with lifts provided in the 1990s.

The station concourse links directly to a small shopping mall called Kogarah Town Centre, which has been built directly over the railway platforms and beside them on Railway Parade.

Transport links
Transit Systems operates three bus routes via Kogarah station, under contract to Transport for NSW:
 * 422: to Railway Square
 * 476: Rockdale station to Dolls Point via Sans Souci
 * 477: Rockdale station to Westfield Miranda via Sans Souci

U-Go Mobility operates four bus routes via Kogarah station, under contract to Transport for NSW:
 * 446: to Roselands Shopping Centre
 * 455: Rockdale Plaza to Kingsgrove
 * 947: to Hurstville
 * 958: Rockdale Plaza to Hurstville

Kogarah station is served by two NightRide routes:
 * N10: Sutherland station to Town Hall station
 * N11: Cronulla station to Town Hall station

title: Kogarah railway station


text:
Talk:Ibn al-Shatir

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 18 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): BrownStud.

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Ptolemy v. Shatir
Since I started editing this page I've preserved the statement that al-Shatir "eliminated entirely the epicycle in the solar model, the eccentrics and equants in the planetary models, and the eccentric, epicycles and equant in the lunar model", but have not confirmed that this is an accurate or adequate summation of the reference cited. It doesn't sound right, particularly the lunar model, which is left by that description as an elementary circle, even though al-Shatir could not possibly explain changes in the Moon's distance/apparent size with a circular orbit, and the literature always compares the difficulties in the lunar model to that of mercury, as particularly troublesome, be it Ptolemy or al-Tusi. Furthermore, Saliba (Islamic Science...p123) clarifies that Ptolemy explicitly allowed that the epicycle and the eccentric were mathematically and observationally equivalent, an observation repeated often in the literature, so one could trade one for the other. In at least hindsight this is also true of the equant. Al-Shatir's model is, in this sense, just the first demonstration of Hanson's famous paper (1960) on the utility of the epicycle. Also, did al-Shatir use the same solution as Ptolemy for the latitudinal motions/axial tilt? What else justifies the statement, left here before me, that al-Shatir's work might be considered a "Scientific Revolution before the Renaissance"? He rectified Aristotelian physics with Ptolemaic cosmology, and that is a very great achievement, but an entirely different one than what followed Copernicus, who had no particularly good reason or observation for his model, AFAIK, until Galileo's observations of Jupiter's moons cast a shadow on Aristotle that hypothetical epicycles never could.

Also, isn't that a cute turn of phrase? "Galileo's observations of Jupiter's moons cast a shadow on Aristotle that hypothetical epicycles never could". With a little polish that might even become pretty damned fantastic. I must be ripping somebody off.

buermann (talk) 05:50, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

 * An epicycle is equal to particular equant.  The problem with Ptolemy is that he created both epicycles and equant's for each planetary that were unrelated to each other except for fitting his observations, with the intention that the equant be the same for all of the models (since the equant affects the earth, which he was modelling as the center.)  Note that there cannot be multiple equants -- otherwise the earth would have to be in two different places at once.  For this reason, Ptolemy was not trying to remove the equant since he saw it as since property of the earth.  Since ibn Al-Shatir, essentially was able to reject more of Aristotle's cosmology than Ptolemy, he simply replaced the equant with an epicycle for each planet using Urdi's lemma (in modern parlance, we would just consider these as parameterized rotating vectors and it's obvious that an equant and an epicycle are essentially the same from an observational point of view.)  This transformation makes the model seem more convoluted, but it is mathematically equivalent.  Furthermore, since each planetary model now had its own extra epicycle assigned to it, he could modify them independently to reflect the more accurate observations at Maghreb.  It is also obvious from doing this that you can just keep adding modifying epicycles, or any other device, such as the Tusi couple, to just force the model to fit observations by "fixing" whatever perturbations were noticed.

 * Since he tried to take into account relative distance from the earth he could use the Tusi couple to move the sun or moon back and forth. Remember that at the time no absolute distances to any celestial object was known.  But eclipses allowed for the deduction of the *relative* size of the moon to the sun.  What this meant was that you could adjust the model for them to account for their relative distance and size -- but you could not know anything to any absolute accuracy.  So if he assumed the moon was a circle, then that means he thought the sun moved further away and closer while the moon did not.  Its just a matter of perspective. Qed (talk) 13:47, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Untitled

 * [Ibn Shater departed] from the Ptolemaic system in a way very similar to what Copernicus later also did. Ibn Shater hypothesized that the earth was not the center of the universe and proved it by trigonometric means. Later on, Copernicus restated this theory to the Europeans.

If this is not intended to give the impression that Ibn Shater deserves credit for heliocentrism in place of Copernicus, then it is very badly worded indeed. If it is, it is not supported by any of the works cited.

Ibn al-Shatir did important astronomical work, and his solution for removing equants was also used at one time by Copernicus, though not in his final formulation. There is no sort of evidence that Copernicus knew of the earlier work, and opinions are divided. Nor was al-Shatir's system heliocentric. (See the Gingerich citation.)

Why is it better to make misleading or false assertions than to give al-Shatir the credit he deserves? I'm undertaking to fix this, but we need (as I have said so many times before) someone who knows Islamic science to do it right. The lashings-out of partisans are not useful in Wikipedia, even when they are in behalf of historically neglected areas. --Dandrake 00:12, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * Indeed this statement is incorrect. There is no evidence that ibn al-Shatir ever considered a heliocentric system.  As much as I admire the work of Saliba, especially on this issue, his failure to recount Copernicus' history on the subject kind of taints his analysis.  Copernicus proposed the heliocentric system before 1514 based on very scant empirical data.  In other words, it was just a pure insight -- probably the result of reading Martianus Capella and simply extending his idea.  His small circle of friends were intrigued and wanted Copernicus to write up a more formal treatise on the matter.  Copernicus, probably realizing he had no supporting analysis or evidence for his theory, then appears to have sought out the very latest in astronomical treatise' and probably obtained a copy of the works of al-Shatir and Tusi.  We know it happened in this order because Guillame Postel, presumably Copernicus' source for the Arab works, was only 4 years old in 1514.  So he would not have obtained ibn al-Shatir's models until a more realistic date between 1530 and 1540.

 * Copernicus, without fully understanding the technical details of ibn al-Shatir, probably then discovered to his delight, that indeed all the planetary models could be scaled such that one of their epicycles was very near to the orbit of the sun around the earth. So then he just subtracted that epicycle from everything (including the earth!) and voila!  So he then proceeded to document this, by first reproducing ibn al-Shatir's models (slightly incorrectly, because he didn't or couldn't do all the math that ibn al-Shatir did) then showed how his heliocentric model was in observational agreement with his models by doing this sun-orbit-epicycle subtraction.  I have not read these materials myself, so I cannot say with any certainty that this was Copernicus' thinking.  But such analysis would have been available to him. Qed (talk) 14:40, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Separation of Astronomy from Natural Philosophy?
Could someone document the claim that Ibn al-Shatir was responsible for the separation of astronomy from natural philosophy? The separation of the two was already clear at the time of the philosopher Aristotle, who clearly differentiated the role of astronomy as providing knowledge of the fact (scientia quia), from that of philosophy which provided knowledge of the cause of the fact (scientia propter quid); and the astronomer Ptolemy, who wrote of mathematical astronomy in his Almagest and Handy Tables, and of physical cosmology and the causes of celestial motions in his Planetary Hypotheses. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 03:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC); revised 04:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Misuse of sources
This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.

Diffs for each edit made by Jagged 85 are listed at Cleanup5. It may be easier to view the full history of the article.

A script has been used to generate the following summary. Each item is a diff showing the result of several consecutive edits to the article by Jagged 85, in chronological order. Johnuniq (talk) 11:32, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ibn al-Shatir:

 * I'm about to start looking at this (which will likely amount to ripping out the dodgy stuff) William M. Connolley (talk) 22:05, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Ibn al-Shatir