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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kevin Frankish

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete but without prejudice against the re-creation of a valid article by the same name. Rossami (talk) 03:37, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Kevin Frankish
Rant. Denni ☯ 15:41, 2005 May 29 (UTC)
 * Delete as a POV rant.   — J I P | Talk 15:46, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * D Rant? Original research? Both? Who cares! Delete! Fawcett5 20:35, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Hopelessly POV. Desacration of the Buddha is covered under Taliban. -- BD2412  talk  20:43, 2005 May 29 (UTC)
 * Comment: the content here is a rant and needs to be purged, but Kevin Frankish is a notable Toronto-area media personality who works for the ChumCity corporation and hosts Breakfast Television. So there should be a legitimate Kevin Frankish entry. –DeweyQ 23:06, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: DeweyQ is correct about the real Kevin Frankish. I would also like to add that Talk:Kevin Frankish and Talk:Speakers' Corner (television series) be also deleted. They contain the same content — it was a copy and paste job by the same IP. —Markaci 2005-06-3 T 01:47 Z

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


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File:Polish bunkers.jpg

Polish field fortifications http://www.ww2.pl/apps/?command=fotografie/szczegoly&id=103&did=22

Fair use for Battle of Mława
A unique, low resolution black and white photo from World War II (hence cannot be replicated) by an unknown/anonymous author, and the only available photo of the battle, used purely for information purposes.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: File:Polish bunkers.jpg


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Virginia Davis

Virginia Davis (December 31, 1918 – August 15, 2009) was an American child actress in films. She is best known for working with Walt Disney and Ub Iwerks on the animated short series Alice Comedies, in which she portrayed the protagonist Alice.

Biography
Davis was born on December 31, 1918, in Kansas City, Missouri. Her father, a furniture salesman, was often away on business.

Alice Comedies
Davis began working for Walt Disney's Kansas City company, Laugh-O-Gram Studio, in 1923. She was hired to act in a film called Alice's Wonderland, which combined live action with animation. When Laugh-O-Gram failed and Disney moved to Los Angeles, on the basis of Alice's Wonderland Winkler Pictures signed Disney for a series known as the Alice Comedies, or Alice in Cartoonland. Disney convinced Davis' family to bring her from Missouri to Los Angeles to star in the series. During this time, Davis resided at the La Brea Apartments in Hollywood, California.

The Greater Glory
In 1925, Davis played the role of Resi in The Greater Glory, a First National Pictures production. The film's director, Curt Rehfeld, remarked that Davis "... has the technique of a finished artist, the unusual ability to follow direction and the disposition of an angel. Not once during the picture was it necessary for me to explain any angle twice and, with all of her mature understanding, the youthful charm still remains, making a rare and appreciated combination."

While filming The Greater Glory, Davis signed a contract with Harry Carey and the two actors worked together in The Man From Red Gulch (1925).

The Blue Bird
In December 1929, Davis was in the cast of The Blue Bird at the Pasadena Playhouse. The fairy play included Janet Horning, a child actress who was only two years old. The cast included 150 children.

Retirement
Recalling her work on the Alice Comedies, Davis said, "It was a great time – full of fun, adventure, and 'let's pretend.' I adored and idolized Walt, as any child would. He would direct me in a large manner with great sweeping gestures. One of my favorite pictures was Alice's Wild West Show. I was always the kid with the curls, but I was really a tomboy, and that picture allowed me to act tough. I took great joy in that."

Over the next 20 years, she went on to work at other Hollywood studios as a child actress and, later, as a supporting actress. She sang, danced, and acted in such films as Flying Down to Rio (1933), Young and Beautiful (1934), College Holiday (1936), Vivacious Lady (1938), Three on a Match (1932), Week-End in Havana (1941), Song of the Islands (1942) and The Harvey Girls (1946) among others. On several occasions, she used the screen name Mary Daily, and appeared in such films as Hands Across the Rockies (1941) with cowboy star Bill Elliott. During her Hollywood tenure, she also occasionally worked for her old boss, Walt Disney, did a vocal test for Snow White, voiced some supporting characters in Pinocchio and served a short stint in the Disney Studio's Ink-and-Paint department.

Personal life
In 1943, she married Navy aviator Robert McGhee, and the couple had two daughters. During their 59-year marriage, they resided in New Jersey, Connecticut, Southern California, and Idaho. Over a 25-year period, Davis worked as a real estate agent mostly in the Irvine, California and Boise, Idaho areas.

Death
After a year of failing health, Davis-McGhee died of natural causes in her home in Corona, California on August 15, 2009, aged 90.

Awards
In 1998, Davis received a Disney Legends award for Animation.

title: Virginia Davis


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Xixi

Xixi may refer to:

People

 * Xi Xi (西西; born 1938), Chinese novelist and poet

Towns

 * Xixi, Huilai County (溪西镇), town in Guangdong
 * Xixi, Yongkang, Zhejiang (西溪镇), town
 * Xixi, Luxi (洗溪镇), a town of Luxi County, Hunan

Townships

 * Xixi Township, Yongding County, Fujian
 * Xixi Township, Suichuan County, in Suichuan County, Jiangxi
 * Xixi Township, Hanyuan County, in Hanyuan County, Sichuan
 * Xixi Township, Xichang, in Xichang, Sichuan
 * Xixi Township, Yongjia County, Zhejiang

Creeks
Xixi (西溪, "West Creek") is a fairly common hydronym in China. Examples include:

 * Xixi, an affluent of the Jiulong in southern Fujian
 * Xixi, an stream running to the Taiwan Strait in Xiamen

Other

 * Xixi National Wetland Park (西溪国家湿地公园) in Hangzhou

title: Xixi


text:
Matan (given name)

Matan or Mattan (original Biblical translation: Mattan, modern Israeli translation: Matan, מַתָּן, ) is a Hebrew name, mostly for males in Israel. It is coming from the word 'gift' and literally means "giving". It is part of the title of the Jewish holiday of Shavuot that is also known as "Z'man Mattan Torah" meaning "[the] time [of the] giving [of the] Torah."

A biblical reference for a Mattan as a given name is the story told in Books of Kings about the Baal priest Mattan, killed by the people of the Kingdom of Judah during a revolution.

In the Gospel of Matthew, Matthan is the paternal grandfather of Joseph, father of Jesus.

King Zedekiah's birth name was originally Mattanyahu.

People

 * Matan Abdi, Somali politician and military commander
 * Matan Balestra (born 1992), Israeli footballer currently playing for Sektzia Nes Tziona on loan from Maccabi Netanya
 * Matan Baltaxa (born 1995), Israeli footballer currently playing for Hapoel Acre
 * Matan Barashi (born 1988), Israeli footballer currently playing for Ironi Beit Shemesh
 * Matan Cohen (born 1982), Israeli musician
 * Matan Hodorov (born 1985), Israeli television commentator
 * Matan Hozez (born 1996), Israeli footballer currently playing for Bnei Yehuda
 * Matan Kahana (born 1972), Israeli politician
 * Matan Naor (born 1980), Israeli basketball player
 * Matan Ohayon (born 1986), Israeli footballer currently playing for Israeli club Hapoel Be'er Sheva
 * Matan Porat (born 1982), Israeli pianist and composer
 * Matan Roditi (born 1998), Israeli Olympic marathon swimmer
 * Matan Vilnai (born 1944), Israeli politician and military officer
 * Matan Zohar (born 1990), British musician

title: Matan (given name)


text:
Huxley (video game)

Huxley (헉슬리) was a multiplayer first-person shooter computer game with persistent player characters published by Webzen Games Inc. It was being developed for Microsoft Windows. An Xbox 360 port was planned, but it has been put on an indefinite hold. Huxley initially was going to be cross platform, but according to statements made at the 2009 E3 Expo press conference that feature is currently excluded from development. The contract to operate the game in China was sold to The9 for $35 million USD on February 12, 2007, considered the largest export transaction to date for a Korean-developed game.

A trailer for the game was released in 2007 as a special DVD used to demonstrate LG LCD TVs.

In June 2009 NHN USA released the first English Closed Beta Test via its free games portal ijji.com. The initial test had a small number of users and was carried out over a space of two weeks. Keys for the test were made available through ijji (Globally) and FilePlanet (USA and Canada).

The second Closed Beta Test was initiated in late-July 2009 and lasted until August 12. The second test allowed many more players to test the game. During the last two days of the test a high-volume stress test was carried out on to the servers where everyone with an ijji account was permitted to play the game during test hours.

In April 2010 Huxley was integrated with Hangame game portal and went into open beta on May 3.

In August 2010 an official message was posted on the North American Huxley forums at IJJI. Huxley for the North American region will now be self hosted by Webzen.

On December 30, 2010, the Korean service for Huxley was discontinued.

Plot
In the near future, Nuclearites bombarded the world. Destructive earthquakes, massive tsunami and dramatic climate changes wreak havoc around the globe, isolating continents and driving the human race into chaos. Those who survive the destruction dream of tranquillity, but an eruption among the human race and the appearance of horrible mutants drives the world into further disorder. Racism and oppression cause rebellious uprisings and war that divide the landscape between two powers: Sapiens and Alternative. At the heart of the war emerges a powerful energy source called the Lunarites. The Lunarites were created by Huxley, a scientist and possible saviour.

Both factions seek glory and victory, fighting mercilessly for the Lunarites and their very existence.

The story was thought to be based on the novel Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, hence the name, however Webzen has stated there are no tie-ins to the book's story saying it was just an inspiration.

The game's visual style is reminiscent of the StarCraft series of games, which are extremely popular in South Korea (where the developer is based).

Gameplay
The speed and style of Huxley is fast-paced and team oriented, combining gameplay from twitch shooters such as Unreal Tournament with the character advancement and large worlds seen in MMORPG's like World of Warcraft. In a recent interview, Huxley's main producer Kijong Kang said that the cities in Huxley will be able to accommodate up to 5,000 (according to recent publications that number was increased to 10,000 since summer 2006) people, and the individual battles will support over a hundred players. However, due to major changes in the game's engine and budget, the number of battling players has been reduced to 64 players (32 against 32) at the most. This number may or may not increase once the game is released.

There are two main types of Player versus Player battles. These are called Skirmishes and Battlefields. The skirmishes are small battles between two teams of 8 players on small to medium-sized maps. One player acts as the host player and can choose between a variety of settings and gametypes. The other players in the game then connect to the host and are separated into teams based on their character's faction. Battlefields are much larger scale battles with higher stakes and more players. In the Open Frontier Test of Huxley, this mode supported 64 players, 32 of each faction. Battlefields generally take place on much larger maps, and have objectives that players need to capture, retrieve, gather, or defend. Because hosting 64 players on a player's PC would be incredibly difficult, the Battlefields are hosted by dedicated servers.

In the Player versus Environment portion of Huxley, players can either play alone or group up with three others to kill AI-controlled monsters and complete quests. All fighting takes place in instance dungeons. There is also a town where players can meet up to talk, trade, shop, and form parties.

Leveling and experience
In the early part of the character advancement player system, players can shape their character in the style they like best. After that, players can then add depth to their characters. ‘Experiences’ and ‘Battle points’ are two elements of character advancement. ‘Experiences’ will affect the earlier part of character development and ‘Battle Points’ will affect the later part of a character’s development in a big way.

In the earlier part, by acquiring licenses, characters can have opportunities to use upgraded weapons and armor. In the later part of the game, players will concentrate on developing their characters to be more effective under any circumstance. One developer has stated, "We are planning to make the earlier part of character development relatively fast and the later part of development a bit slower but more abundant. This is because we decided that too much difference between characters abilities that affect combat result is not good for an FPS game."

Webzen has considered the fact that in most MMOGs the players at earlier levels have no chance of defeating those at the higher levels, and therefore they have adjusted the game to make skill more significant than long periods of playing the game and leveling up. Leveling up will give players advantages, such as more slots for upgrades and perhaps faster aiming, but a lower level player can still measure up to a higher one.

Vehicles
Huxley includes vehicles for both player-vs-player and player-vs-environment gameplay, as well as general transportation. Gameplay footage has shown several visually interesting SciFi vehicles, including an APC, an aircraft resembling Unreal Tournament 2004's Raptor, a large energy based tank, and a small assault buggy. Vehicles are used in both combat and transportation.

Developer interviews have also stated that players can obtain motorcycles for personal transportation, and that they will mainly serve as status symbols for wealthy players and as a quicker mean of transportation through town.

Weapons
Huxley has nine different types of weapons. Each class specializes in three weapons, and also has the option of using four weapons of the other classes, although with less proficiency.

There are also several different modifications of each type of weapon. These usually have minor tradeoffs like doing more damage with a lower fire rate, or being more accurate with less damage.

Some special weapon types start to appear for higher level classes. Notable ones of these are a splitting rocket launcher in which the rocket splits into two after a distance and an optical rifle which does a damage over time or slows the enemy. For the Enforcer they get special Flingers which have a longer distance of fire and will either stick to the wall or be able to be bounced off the wall. The Phantom gets Sniper rifles which have a chance to cause a devastating damage over time.

Abilities
Abilities, or skills, can be used in battle to give a player to a tactical advantage. As a player levels up, they are rewarded with new and more powerful skills. The type of skills available to the player differs based on their class. Skills are used by being "equipped" to armour. The number of skills that can be equipped depends on the players level and the rank of the armour. This system is very similar in concept to Call of Duty 4's perk system.

There are two types of skills, active and passive. Passive skills are skills that act as buffs, or skills that activate automatically when a certain condition is met, examples of this include health regeneration, and the ability to drop a flash grenade when low on health. Active skills are activated manually by hitting the assigned key.

Hosting
In June 2008, NHN USA announced that it had secured the rights to distribute Huxley via its ijji portal.

In August 2010, NHN USA announced that they will be transferring the publishing duties of Huxley: The Dystopia to developer Webzen.

Soundtrack
The soundtrack for Huxley was composed by Kevin Riepl. The score was recorded by the 80-piece Hollywood Studio Symphony at Warner Bros in March 2007.

title: Huxley (video game)


text:
User:Neopolitan

"neopolitan" is the IRC nick of the author of a number of papers concerning the Neopolitonian Model.

A consequence of that model is that Newton's Gravitational Constant can be calculated precisely and found to be (to the 30th significant place)  $$G$$ = $$6.675900336321710593044539789088$$ $$x$$ $$10 ^{-11}$$ $$m^3$$  $$kg ^{-1}$$  $$s ^{-2}$$

--81.232.162.42 15:45, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

neopolitan can be contacted at neopolitan@elitemail.org

title: User:Neopolitan


text: File:Polish infantry.jpg

title: File:Polish infantry.jpg


text:
James Benning

James Benning may refer to:
 * James Benning (film director) (born 1942), American filmmaker
 * James Benning (cricketer) (born 1983), English cricketer
 * Jim Benning (born 1963), Canadian ice hockey player and executive

title: James Benning


text:
Stealth ship

A stealth ship is a ship that employs stealth technology construction techniques in an effort to make it harder to detect by one or more of radar, visual, sonar, and infrared methods.

These techniques borrow from stealth aircraft technology, although some aspects such as wake and acoustic signature reduction (acoustic quieting) are unique to stealth ships' design. Although radar cross-section (RCS) reduction is a fairly new concept, many other forms of masking a ship have existed for centuries or even millennia.

Shaping

In designing a ship with a reduced radar signature, the main concerns are radar beams originating near or slightly above the horizon (as seen from the ship) coming from distant patrol aircraft, other ships, or sea-skimming anti-ship missiles with active radar seekers. Therefore, the shape of the ship avoids vertical surfaces, which are effective at reflecting such beams directly back to the emitter. Retro-reflective right angles are eliminated to avoid the cat's eye effect. A stealthy ship shape can be achieved by constructing the hull and superstructure with a series of slightly protruding and retruding surfaces. Furthermore, round shapes on the ship are eliminated or covered up, examples being smokestacks and gun turrets. Also, cavities that present a horizontal face are to be eliminated since they are very visible to radar. To bypass these limitations, many ships use features such as panels that cover reflective surfaces or use alternate designs of hardware. Additionally, efforts are made to minimize gaps on the ship. Hull shapes include tumblehome hull designs, which slope inward from the waterline, and small-waterplane-area twin hulls (SWATH), which allow for better stability when using a tumblehome hull. These RCS design principles were developed by several navies independently in the 1980s using work done on aircraft RCS reduction as the starting point.

Sea Shadow, which utilizes both tumblehome and SWATH features, was an early US exploration of stealth ship technology. The currently-serving Zumwalt-class destroyer is a modern example of a stealth ship from the US Navy. Despite being 40% larger than an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, its radar signature is more akin to a fishing boat, according to a spokesman for Naval Sea Systems Command; sound levels are comparable to the Los Angeles-class submarine. The tumblehome hull and composite material deckhouse reduce radar return. Water sleeting along the sides, along with passive cool air induction in the mack, reduces infrared signature. Overall, the destroyer's angular build makes it "50 times harder to spot on radar than an ordinary destroyer", according to Chris Johnson, a spokesman for Naval Sea Systems Command.

The Swedish Navy's Visby-class corvette is designed to elude visual detection, radar detection, acoustic detection, and infrared detection. The hull material is a sandwich construction comprising a PVC core with carbon fiber and vinyl laminate. Avoidance of right angles in the design results in a smaller radar signature, reducing the ship's detection range.

The Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyer has similarities to the Visby class, but is much more conventional, employing traditional steel instead of carbon fiber. Like Visby, its design reduces the use of right angles.

The ROC Navy's Tuo Chiang-class corvette is a class of fast stealth multi-mission corvettes currently in service with the Republic of China (Taiwan) Navy. The ships are designed to have a low radar cross-section and evade radar detection making it difficult to detect the ship when operating closer to the coastline.

Signature reduction
Stealth technology represents more than just a low RCS; noise reduction plays a role in naval stealth because sound is conducted better in water than air. Some of the techniques used include muffled exhaust systems, modified propeller shapes, and pump-jets. The shape of the hull can also have a great effect on the reduction of the noise from a ship. Another major element is signal emission control. Modern warships emit much electromagnetic radiation in the form of radar, radio, and bleed-off from the ship's electrical systems. These all can be used to track a ship, and thus modern stealth ships often have a mode that switches off many of the electronic emissions (EMCON), the downside being the ship has to rely on passive sensors and is unable to easily send messages further than the line of sight.

Also of importance are thermal emissions. A heat signature can make a ship stand out in the ocean, making it easier to spot. Because it is possible to see infrared emissions through features that would normally hide a ship such as fog, or a smoke screen, many detection platforms like patrol aircraft, UAVs, and satellites often have the ability to see multiple bands in the infrared spectrum. This necessitates the control of thermal emissions. The most common method is to mix any hot gasses emitted by the main source of heat—the engines' exhaust—with cold air to dilute the signature and make it harder to pick out the ship from the background warmth. Another method vents the exhaust into the water, although this increases the ship's acoustic signature. For the hull, cool water can be actively distributed across the hull of the ship. Another less crucial but still relevant part of a stealth ship is visual camouflage. This area is probably the oldest form of stealth, with records going back almost as far as the writing of ancient mariners using visual tricks to make their ships harder to spot. Although still relevant, this area has taken on lesser importance with the advent of long-range radar.

Materials
Just like choices in shaping, the choice of materials affects the RCS of a ship. Composites like fiberglass and carbon fiber are effective blockers of radar and give smaller vessels an advantage in further RCS reductions. However, composites are fragile and often unsuited to larger ships or ships that expect to take fire, although new laminates can partially negate some of the weaknesses. This restricts larger ships to metals like steel and aluminum alloys. To compensate, a ship may include a coating of a radar-absorbing material, although this can be expensive and may not stand up to the corrosive effects of salt water.

Fully stealth ships
(Year of commission)
 * (1985, experimental platform)
 * (1996)
 * (1998)
 * (1999)
 * (2004)
 * (2006)
 * (2007)
 * (2009)
 * fast attack craft (2010)
 * (2010)
 * (2011)
 * (2014)
 * (2016)
 * (2017)

Reduced radar cross-section ships

 * (KDX-III)
 * (KDX-II)
 * (KDX-III)
 * (KDX-II)
 * (KDX-III)
 * (KDX-II)
 * (KDX-III)
 * (KDX-II)
 * (KDX-III)
 * (KDX-II)
 * (KDX-III)
 * (KDX-II)
 * (KDX-III)
 * (KDX-II)
 * (KDX-III)
 * (KDX-II)

Planned ships

 * F126 frigate

title: Stealth ship


text:
Talk:Kleshas (Buddhism)

I'm assuming this is the same as Klesha, in which case the list includes not only incorrect terms, but incorrect definitions. Lobha is not greed, it's self-love. Moha is greed, not Avidya. Further, the term most properly used in the Kleshas is not Doha, but Krodha for hatred and/or anger. Corrections should certainly be made. --hidoshi@hidoshi.com 15:50, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

re-organize material per timeline and sects?
I'd like to: I think this would be helpful for a number of reasons including: Would anyone rationally object to this? Thanks for any civil feedback, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 03:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) move the Pali literature material to the top of this article
 * 2) re-organize the remaining sections (3 Poisons, 5 Poisons, 6 Defilements of Vasubandhu) under a sectional heading of something like "Mayahana contexts"
 * 1) from a holistic standpoint, it would likely provide a better explanation for the reader on the term's historical evolution
 * 2) I believe that it would help Theravada-oriented readers find material pertinent to their worldview and Mahayana/Vajrayana-readers find material pertient to their worldview

 * It's been over a week and no one's objected so I'm gonna implement this change momentarily. If you disagree with this change, please discuss further here.  Thanks so much, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 05:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

"Mahayana and other literature"
Anyone else concerned about the apparent incoherence (e.g., why insert Patanjali outside of tangential word association?) of this section? Anyone able to provide order (e.g., in terms of historical/denominational development and/or articulation) to this section? Thanks for any help, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 06:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

 * FWIW, I moved the Patanjali material to an ==Other literature== section today and renamed ==Mahayana and other literature== to simply ==Mahayana literature==. If anyone objects, please discuss here (and, if you feel so compelled, feel free to revert, of course).  Hope this offends none and seems reasonable, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 16:03, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe structure the 5 Kelshas of Patanjali's Sutras in the same outline format as the other Buddhist texts (i.e., bulleted) and give a reference that Patanjali was considered to be a contemporary of the Buddha so as to fairly show that the notion of Klesha is not strictly Buddhist in nature.

The interpretive commentary looks good.

CGBaker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.125.24.234 (talk) 14:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Larry, I would be happy if this article were not labeled Buddhist, but consider the Buddhist literature and the Yoga literature equally, perhaps with Klesha (Buddhist) / Klesha (Yoga) as two articles, or with another type of disambiguation page. My preference would be to keep them all here, but de-emphasize the Buddhist ownership of the term. Bill Huston  (talk)  01:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Cultural importance of "greed, hatred, and delusion"
This article is impressive but I think you've missed a cultural forest for some scholarly trees. The particular "three poisons" formula of lobha, dosa, and moha has an importance in Mahayana understanding and iconography that sets it apart. For instance, "the wheel of samsara" is always drawn with the rooster of desire, the snake of aversion, and the pig of delusion in the very center. (e.g., Wheel)

For the moment (and maybe for good) I would just mention it in the last line of the introduction:

In Buddhism, kilesa (Pali; kleśa or klesha) is typically translated as "defilement" or "poison." In early Buddhist texts, kilesa generally referred to one of a set of mental states which temporarily cloud the mind and manifest in unskillful actions. Over time, the kilesas, and in particular the "three poisons" of greed, hatred, and delusion, came to be seen, particularly in Mahayana Buddhism, as the very roots of samsaric existence. (Sorry for being lazy and not giving the translations, but I never seem to get it right!) OldMonkeyPuzzle (talk) 08:47, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

 * FWIW, as inker of much of the "Pali literature" stuff in this article, I think your suggested change adds clarity. I very much appreciate your first suggesting the change for discussion on this talk page and support your implementing it.  Best, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 13:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Thanks, Larry. I find that nearly all the things that bug me as I browse around have to do with the problem of dealing with different points of view or areas of knowledge.

 * So for better or worse I am about to add my edits to the introduction: my thing about greed hatred and delusion, and a couple of grammatical clean ups. 20:48, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

 * OldMonkeyPuzzle (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well done! Thanks again! - Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 00:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Abhidharmakośa
The Abhidharmakośa is listed here in the Mahāyana section despite it being a Sautantrika commentary on Vaibhāṣika positions. Much of Vasubhandu's other work is in fact Mahāyana, but this text is not. Perhaps a section entitled "Early Buddhism" should be created with the large amount of information on Theravāda being one section, and an "other early schools" section containing the information from the Kośa and other Sarvāstivāda works. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahabhusuku (talk • contribs) 18:07, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Kleśa
Why does this article have the header "kleśa" with a long final "a" ? This is wrong ~ the body of the article has the correct form with a short "a". Could somebody change this please ?-- अनाम गुमनाम  18:22, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Three poisons
In Tibetan Buddhist teachings, the three poisons refer to ignorance, aversion, and attachment. This page has them listed as ignorance, attachment and craving. Maybe the later reference is from another tradition, but this is worth clarifying since the three poisons are often cited in Tibetan texts.
 * Dorje108 (talk) 03:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

 * For what it's worth, it appears that an early version of the article had stated this and then this information was changed starting here:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kle%C5%9B%C4%81_%28Buddhism%29&diff=next&oldid=190134081
 * The editor who made this particular change was User:B9_hummingbird_hovering, who is no longer on WP. And there's no citation for this statement. So, personally, if I may, I'd like to suggest one of the following:
 *
 * replace: move the text-in-question to this Talk page (for posterity, etc.), and put in place what you think is appropriate along with an appropriate reference (preferably WP:RS)
 * flag: add a "citation needed" tag to the text-in-question and then wait -- if no one adds a suitable citation in a week or two or three, edit as you please
 * insert: insert your text with an appropriate citation into the existing text, allowing for the possibility that there are multiple (arguably?) valid sources
 *
 * Personally, given that the original editor who appears (unless I'm misinterpreting the above history and my recollection is in error -- always a possibility!) to have made the edit has left WP and the lack of any citation, I'd suggest pursuing the first option and then waiting to see if anyone reverts, etc. With metta, Larry (24.225.66.184 (talk) 17:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC))

 * Whoops! I only provided a partial picture above.  Turns out the final coup de grace to the list-in-question occurred a year and a half ago, here:

 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kle%C5%9B%C4%81_%28Buddhism%29&diff=next&oldid=251886097

 * Given this new tidbit, I change my recommendation above to, if you've the time and interest, post a query on User_talk:Sylvain1972 and see if they're open to exploring mutually agreeable solutions for this. Sorry if my confusion added to your own.  Best, L. (24.225.66.184 (talk) 18:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC))
 * Hi Larry, Thanks very much for the feedback and the research on this. I think the best short-term approach is to create a separate section and call it something like "Three Poisons (Tibetan Buddhism)." Maybe in the Theravada tradition the same term is used differently. I don't know. But I'll leave the current section as it is and label it appropriately and note the need for citations. (I'll use lots of citations!) I will check with Sylvain1972 as well. I'll try to make this changes over the next week. Best, Dorje.
 * Dorje108 (talk) 01:43, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Hi Dorje - you're very thoughtful and caring, and I like your idea. Kudos! - Larry (24.225.66.184 (talk) 05:04, 8 March 2011 (UTC))

Removed confusing un-referenced text
''I've removed the following text from the article page. This text below is confusing, it has no references, and I can't find any references to support it. It seems to be mixing up different terms and concepts.''

 * BEGINNING OF REMOVED TEXT
 * In Mahayana Buddhism, the mūla kleśa (English: root poisons) of the Twelve Nidānas are:
 * ignorance (Sanskrit: Avidyā; Tibetan: ma rig pa)
 * attachment (Sanskrit: Upādāna; Tibetan: len pa)
 * craving (Sanskrit: tṛṣṇā; Tibetan: sred pa)

 * In other enumerations of the mula kleśa, hatred or anger (Sanskrit: dveṣa; Tib.: ཞེ་སྡང་ zhe sdang; 瞋 Cn: chēn; Jp: jin; Vi: sân) is substituted for attachment.

 * These three mula kleśa are rendered into English as the "Three Poisons" and are symbolized by the Gankyil.

 * These three klesas specifically refer to the subtle movement of mind (Sanskrit: citta) when it initially encounters a mental object. In Buddhist conceptions of the mind, "mental object" refers to any object which the mind perceives, be it a thought, emotion or object perceived by the physical senses. If the mind initially reacts by moving towards the mental object, seeking it out, or attaching to it, the experience and results will be tinged by the upādāna klesha.  Unpleasant objects or experiences are often met by aversion, or the mind moving away from the object, which is the root for hatred and anger to arise in relation to the object.
 * END OF REMOVED TEXT
 * Dorje108 (talk) 22:53, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Created separate page for the Three Poisons
I've created a separate page for the three poisons, with an appropriate link from this page. The topic is certainly worthy of its own page. I will add more context on this page when I get a chance.
 * See Three poisons (Buddhism)
 * Dorje108 (talk) 22:53, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Great info in this footnote
There is great information in the following footnote:
 * In addition to frequent reference in the Abhidhamma and post-canonical Pali literature, references to the unwholesome roots (akusala-mūla) are sprinkled throughout the Sutta Pitaka. For instance, in the Digha Nikaya, it can be found in DN 33 (D iii.215) and DN 34 (D iii.275); in the Majjhima Nikaya, it is the first of several topics discussed by Ven. Sariputta in the well-known Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta ("Right View Discourse," MN 9); and, in the Itivuttaka, a brief discourse on three unwholesome roots starts off the "Section of the Threes" (Iti. 50). However, in none of this Sutta Pitaka texts are the three unwholesome roots referred to as kilesa. Such an association appears to begin in the Abhidhamma texts.

I would like to add this information to the page on the three poisons, but I would like to clarify the sources first. I don't doubt the accuracy, but I am not a Pali scholar, so the references like DN 33 (D iii.215) are not clear to me (I'll research this, but it takes time). In addition, the last two sentences in the footnote are very helpful, but there is no citation. Can someone provide a good source for this?
 * Dorje108 (talk) 02:27, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

 * Hi Dorje108 -

 * In regards to the Pali Canon, references that begin "DN" refer to the "Digha Nikaya" (often translated as, "Long Discourses" in English). This collection contains 34 discourses.  The notation "DN 33" denotes the 33rd discourse (sutta) of this collection.  (The parenthesized notation, "D iii.215," is specific to the Pali Text Society's (PTS) redaction of the Digha Nikaya -- here meaning the Digha Nikaya's ["D"] third ["iii"] volume's page 215 -- a notation that is often referenced in other volumes, such as the Sri Lanka Tripitaka Project's [SLTP] redaction of the Pali Canon and in Wisdom Publication's English translations of the Pali Canon [e.g., as translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, etc].)  (As an aside, I believe most Western Buddhist scholars would assess that DN 33 and DN 34 are "late" additions to the Pali Canon, perhaps early attempts at collating material from earlier suttas ... though providing appropriate sources for this claim here is way beyond this thread ... ;-) )  "MN" refers to the Pali Canon's "Majjhima Nikaya" ("Middle-length Discourses"), and the "Itivuttaka" (Iti.) is a small collection in the Pali Canon's "Khuddaka Nikaya " (KN).

 * In general, the best on-line, free English translations for the Pali Canon, I believe, can be found at John Bullitt's amazing site, "Access to Insight" (ATI). So, for instance, of the above footnote's referenced discourses, the following ATI translations can be found:

 MN 9: Sammaditthi Sutta trans., Nanamoli & Bodhi at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html; trans., Thanissaro at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html Iti. 50: Group of Threes
trans., Thanissaro at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.3.050-099.than.html

 * Unfortunately, I don't know of any on-line English translations of DN 33 and 34. The best source I know of for such is Maurice Walshe's Wisdom Pub hard-copy translation.  (PTS fans would likely point to the T.W. Rhys Davids and C.A.F. Rhys Davids trans. :-) )

 * Honestly, regretfully, I can't definitively recall the precise method used to develop the information for this footnote. I suspect I searched the Pali Canon for the pertinent Pali words, using appropriate conjugations and/or roots.  For me, the best way I know to search the Canon is to use Dr. Peter Friedlander's BodhGayaNews site:  http://bodhgayanews.net/pali.htm .  (Last I checked, I think the site relatively recently developed a problem searching for words which include a ñ; but, otherwise, it works terrifically :-)  This site searches all texts of the SLTP redaction of the Pali Canon's Vinaya Pitaka, Sutta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka, as well as many post-canonical texts (including, e.g., the Visuddhimagga).  In addition, when creating this above-referenced footnote, it's possible a search of the Burmese CSCD Pali text was also done (e.g., at http://tipitaka.org/ ).

 * I'm sorry but due to my lapsed memory and lack of time, it's hard for me to recall more at this time. I hope this provides some help.  If you have any follow-up here, I'll try to respond as time allows.  Or feel free to e-mail me at larry@chantpali.org.

 * With metta,
 * Larry (24.225.66.184 (talk) 05:33, 21 June 2011 (UTC))

 * Hi Larry, Thank you! This is priceless. It a great introduction to the Pali Canon for me. I will make use of this for sure, though it make take a little while. :)
 * Best regards, Dorje
 * Dorje108 (talk) 01:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Reorganization and introduction for a general audience
For the purpose of making this topic more accessible to a general audience, I am planning on adding a non-technical introduction (with appropriate references) and also re-ordering the topics to put the sections on the Three Poisons and Five Poisons before the sections on Pali and Mahayana. I think this will make sense when you see it. I think that now that the sections on the Three Poisons and Five Poisons have been clarified, it makes sense to move them towards the top of the article; these sections should be easier for a general audience to understand. Dorje108 (talk) 19:34, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

 * Hi Dorje -
 * First, I truly applaud your open-handed approach to editing Wikipedia articles. Your kindness, thoughtfulness and desire to do good -- to spread the Dhamma -- are very infectious.  Kudos!
 * Second, over all, since you've asked (thanks for the off-WP note BTW :-) ), I find the changes that you're desiring to make are fine. I'd like to suggest the following wordsmithing to your proposed text at User:Dorje108/kleshas; but, for expediency, feel free to ignore them:
 * lede paragraph: I think one of the strengths of the current article is that it shows a chronological progression of how the term kilesa/klesa is used, from the earliest Buddhist texts (e.g., the Vinaya and Sutta Pitaka) to subsequent texts (e.g., the Pali Abhidhamma) to later texts (e.g., as used by Vasubandhu).  (Of course, such a "chronological progression" is not a strict "evolution," since even a Pali bigot like myself acknowledges that the interaction between these textual lineages is complex :-) )  Something implied -- but certainly not proved -- by the chronology is that "kilesa," in the earliest strata of the Pali Canon, was not necessarily tied to subsequent notions of "three poisons."  What the chronology seems to possibly suggest is that Mahayanist notions of "three poisons" evolved from Abhidhammic codifications of the "unwholesome roots," as indicated in this current articles note 9:  "In addition to frequent reference in the Abhidhamma and post-canonical Pali literature, references to the unwholesome roots (akusala-mūla) are sprinkled throughout the Sutta Pitaka.... However, in none of these Sutta Pitaka texts are the three unwholesome roots referred to as kilesa. Such an association appears to begin in the Abhidhamma texts."  Sooooooooooooo, all this is to say that, based on my vastly limited knowledge, I think any mention of the "Three Poisons" in the context of the kilesas/kleshas needs to tag such as a Mahayanist notion.  Thus, for instance, in terms of fidelity to the ancient textual traditions, I think it might be safest to wordsmith your opening paragraph with something like:  " In the Mahayana tradition, the three primary kleshas are ignorance, attachment, and aversion. In various Buddhist traditions, the kleshas can also include states of mind such as anxiety, depression, and fear."  (Actually, it appears to me that the current introduction accurately captures these distinctions -- but, I understand, different editors have different styles, etc.)
 * Overview: I appreciate the effort you made to tracking down a number of very popular and laudable contemporary teachers' explanations of the kilesas/kleshas.  Well done!  I'd like to suggest though that such does not actually provide an "overview" of the topic but more, at least in my mind, "contemporary translations and explanations."  I think this distinction is important because, for instance, the Western teachers/authors used in this section do not strive to be Pali purists but instead tend to be contemporary, syncretic interpretators who borrow "wisdom" from a variety of Buddhist schools.  [One could argue that, at times, Goldstein has been a very faithful conduit of Pali canonical information; but, at other times, to the best of my always questionable recollection, as indicated in his impressive effort, "One Dharma," he appears to favor integration and synthesis over scholarly precision.]  So, I think the section that you currently label as "Overview" is very useful -- again, impressive! -- and I think it's fine to make it the first section of this article; but, I'd recommend entitling in a fashion that I believe better captures its vitality, e.g., instead of "Overview," something like "Contemporary exegesis" or "Contemporary explanations," etc., etc.
 * Etymology: The material in this section appears to come from the current article's lede (intro) paragraph.  As such, according to WP style sheets (MOS), it should not include citations -- because it is a summary of the rest of the article.  That is, it summarizes the article and the article itself then contains citations.  (Admittedly, I've violated this WP guideline myself in at least two different ways:  (1) when adding translations of a Pali/Sanskrit term; and, (2) when another editor newly inserts non-sourced material in an intro, to highlight the sources of the existing material.)  If you'd like a true etymology, it might be helpful to take a look at the Pali and Sanskrit dictionaries; e.g., here, the PED identifies that kilesa comes from kilissati which is related to the Sanskrit klishyati, rooted in the term "to adhere" (as seen in this PED entry:  http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:577.pali ).  As for the current text you have under etymology, I'd stick it back or somehow re-incorporate parts of it in the lede -- but I suspect that's only because it reflects my kind of thinking. :-/
 * Please let me know if you'd like any further clarifications or responses to your subsequent analysis (and feel free to send me an e-mail directly). And again, based on my limited time and your winsome/wholesome manner of engaging others in profitable dialogue, feel free to completely or partially ignore what I write here.  I wish you the very best,
 * Larry (68.143.234.242 (talk) 04:52, 7 August 2011 (UTC))

Hi Larry, Thanks again for your feedback. I think we are getting somewhere! I'll respond to your points out of order, to address the easiest points first: Thanks again for your valuable insights. Yours in the dharma, Dorje. Dorje108 (talk) 21:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Point 2: Overview: I completely agree with your assessment that my proposed section is not really an overview per se. And I will follow your suggestion to rename the topic (to something like "Contemporary Explanations of Kleshas"). I think this topic should be helpful to a general reader who isn't necessarily a Buddhist but who would like to understand these concepts better. I would like to include an explanation in this section from a contemporary teacher who is more purely in the Theravada tradition. Please let me know if you can recommend a Theravada teacher in this regard. Anyway, I will go ahead and add this section soon, in its current imperfect form. I think a proper "Overview" section could also be helpful, but I will take some time to think about that.
 * Point 1: Lede paragraph: Here I think there is a difference in the Mahayana and Therevada POV. This sentence in the current lede doesn't really accord with the Mahayana view (in my opinion): "Over time the kilesas, and in particular the "Three Poisons" of greed, hatred, and delusion, came to be seen as the very roots of samsaric existence." From my limited understanding of the Mayahana POV, the three poisons were identified as the root of suffering by the Buddha himself in the Bhavacakra, which the Mahayanists believe was created by the Buddha. I'm not an expert on this, but I am reasonably sure this is the view. So I think the wording that you suggested above would be a more neutral approach: " In the Mahayana tradition, the three primary kleshas are ignorance, attachment, and aversion. In various Buddhist traditions, the kleshas can also include states of mind such as anxiety, depression, and fear." I will think on this a bit more before making a change, though.
 * I am very curious about your view on the similarities and/or differences between the three poisons and the three unwholesome roots, but I will differ that discussion for another time.
 * Point 3: Etymology: I included this topic on my user page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dorje108/kleshas#Etymology) mainly to keep track of this particular thread from the current lead paragraph that we just discussed. This topic is a bit too much for me to take on at the present. And as I mentioned, the current lede doesn't accord with my understanding of the Mahayana POV. But if I do make the proposed changes to the lede paragraph, we will lose this thread. Maybe this thread would be more appropriate in the Pali section?
 * Reorganization: Based on our current discussion, I am coming around to your POV that the best place for the topics on the Three Poisons and Five Poisons is within the Mahayana section of this article.

 * Hi Dorje!
 * Thank you for the valuable, amiable discourse! Kudos to you again for your thoughtfulness and commitment to truth and liberation.
 * Regarding the insertion of a " Contemporary explanations " section (or however you want to entitle it -- though, if I may, for what it's worth, last I checked [years ago], in section titles, WP MOS recommends capitalizing the first word only [outside of proper names, etc.] and discourages repeating an article's title words in section titles (thus, e.g., reconsider including the phrase "... of the kilesas," as it is already implicit?), it sounds like -- in the absence of any dissenting WP voices -- you've got a winner! Please feel free to insert at will :-)
 * And, I hear you about the " Etymology " section: neither of us has a lot of time or strong interest to pursue this at the moment; it's essentially a place holder for possible recycling or deletion. Cool!
 * So, regarding the lede paragraph, it sounds like we'd like to try to reach consensus. And, again, if after a period of time (three milliseconds, a week, etc.), you get tired of trying to work this out, please go ahead with your change.  I try not to stop any such changes on WP any more :-)
 * I think I confused the issue when I mentioned "Mahayana" versus ... well, you filled in the blank, understandably, as "Theravadin." Really, what I was trying to get at is what contemporary Western scholarship assesses to be the earliest Buddhist texts versus later Buddhist texts.  After all, as suggested by the "post-canonical" Pali literature, the later/modern Theravadin view on the "Three Poisons" might be consistent with Mahayana views -- truth is, I'm not confident I know the right answer to this.  So, in other words, again, I regret that my most recent words above were confounding Theravada and early Buddhism.  Relatedly, please note that the current lede does not try to distinguish between Mahayana and Theravada but instead between "early Buddhist texts" and later texts ("over time").
 * How best to formulate a lede for a topic such as this? We could try to find a balance between Theravada POV and Mahayana POV, perhaps starting with what they have in common and then itemizing the differences.  Or, we could attempt to provide a description of how this term is used over time, in accord with the views of most Western scholars.  This is what the current lede, I think, does.  And, if I may say in an overgeneralized way, I think these two approaches often overlap significantly (e.g., as I think can be seen in the WP intro and article on skandha).  Perhaps it is worth trying to work out a lede that is represents each of these approaches (Theravada/Mahayana POV; and, early/late Buddhist texts) to see what they look like.
 * If we were to pursue (or maintain?) the latter approach, then which so-called "Western scholars" (or, at least, "academics") would we choose? Now, as you know, I don't currently have access to my at-home library.  So, in case they might be of interest, based on my feeble memory, my own favorites have included:
 * Richard Gombrich's "Theravada Buddhism"
 * Rubert Gethin's "Foundations of Buddhism"
 * Paul Williams' "Mahayana Buddhism"
 * Peter Harvey's "Introduction to Buddhism"
 * Other valuable sources are cited, e.g., on the WP Buddhism's bibliography.
 * I think, in general, the vast majority of contemporary Western scholars -- whether with a Theravadan POV or Mahayana POV or neither -- would agree that:
 * the earliest Buddhist texts have their origins in orally transmitted discourses that were first written down about 200 BC or so (and I'm hedging because it's been years since I've thought about this and my memory is heinous);
 * this earliest discourses are reflected by extant texts in Pali, Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit, Gandhari, and similar languages -- as well as in Chinese transcriptions (from around 400 to 800 AD?) of seemingly now-lost Sanskrit (or prakrit?) texts. Of these, at this time, the Pali Canon is the only "complete" collection, and that parts of it are incorporated in most Buddhist tradition's scriptures (i.e., in Mahayana and Vajrayana official lists of scriptures).
 * later texts, Mahayana in nature, started appearing maybe as early as 100 AD but, in general, not until 200 AD or later.
 * To the best of my understanding, this is not Theravada vs. Mahayana POV. And, there are a large number of caveats -- e.g., there is significant and diverse evidence that major portions of the Pali Canon are later additions (e.g., the Abhidhamma Pitaka as well as the later Sutta Pitaka Khuddaka Nikaya volumes, such as the Apadana and Buddhavamsa, etc., as well as portions of individual suttas, etc., etc.).  Nonetheless, I believe that the current lede accords with these general observations about the chronology of Buddhist texts in a way that is not overstating the case:
 * In early Buddhist texts the kilesas generally referred to mental states which temporarily cloud the mind and manifest in unskillful actions. Over time the kilesas, and in particular the "Three Poisons" of greed, hatred, and delusion, came to be seen as the very roots of samsaric existence.
 * For one to change this to, e.g., "The three primary kleshas are ignorance, attachment, and aversion," is to misinform those seeking scholarly knowledge, misrepresent the view point of a significant number of Buddhists (e.g., Theravadins?), and misrepresents information contained in the texts that, according to Western scholarship, "most likely" represents (though, in fact, could be really different from!) the views of the historical Buddha himself.
 * Let me add, if I may, I don't particularly like the lines that I'm drawing here. I personally knew about and identified with the vivid representation of Buddhist thought found in the Bhavacakra long before I knew what Pali was.  I think it is a valuable representation for all Buddhists and even, of course, non-Buddhists.  But the question here is what do the facts say about the relationship between the three poisons and historical sacred texts' use of the term, kilesa.  Practically speaking, does drawing a sharp line here really matter?  I'm not sure -- and this even makes me more inclined to not react negatively if you decide to change the lede in the manner you suggest.  But, if we're willing to make such a scholarship-free judgment here, where do we draw the line on other WP articles in the future?
 * Does this make any sense? I hope what I share or my manner of sharing has not been in any way offensive and apologize if it has been.  Wishing you the best,
 * Larry (68.143.234.242 (talk) 05:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC))

Hi Larry, Thank you for this wealth of information. I’ve taken your suggestions on the topic heading and made the appropriate change, and also changed the CAPS on the other headings to make them consistent.

Regarding the lede, I like this idea that you suggested:
 * Perhaps it is worth trying to work out a lede that is represents each of these approaches (Theravada/Mahayana POV; and, early/late Buddhist texts) to see what they look like.

But having said that, I will probably think about this for a long time before I suggest something. If I have a good suggestion, I’ll post it on my user page and ask your opinion. In my experience, writing the introduction for any text can sometimes be the trickiest part, and sometimes it doesn’t come into focus until the rest of the text is written. So I think there is no rush on this. There are edits that I would like to make within the Mahayana section, so I will probably focus on that for a while. And then after that start thinking about an overview that puts the rest of the article in perspective, and “then” think about the lede again.

I’m pretty vague on the early Buddhist texts, so it’s difficult for me to weigh in on that issue either way. I am also currently pretty vague on the Wikipedia guidelines and the guidelines for the Buddhist project (if the project has guidelines). So for all of the above reasons, I am going to beg off on making any changes to the lede right now.

Thanks very much for the texts that you recommended. These are all new to me and I will certainly look into them. So little time, so much to do! :) I’m sure that I will have more questions for you in the near future. I am very grateful for your comments thus far.
 * Best regards, Dorje Dorje108 (talk) 00:37, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

 * And I am grateful for all your hard work, shared erudition, commitment to the Teachings and infectious kindness. Well done again Dorje.  Wishing you the best, Larry (63.140.222.34 (talk) 12:35, 11 August 2011 (UTC)) [still on the road :-) ]

Updating lede paragraph
In consideration of the discussion above, and after careful thought and reflection, I am updating the lede paragraph as follows:
 * Kleshas (Sanskrit, also kleśa; Pali: kilesa; Tibetan: nyon mongs), in Buddhism, are mental states that cloud the mind and manifest in unwholesome actions. Kleshas include states of mind such as anxiety, fear, anger, jealousy, desire, depression, etc. Contemporary translators use a variety of English words to translate the term kleshas, such as: afflictions, defilements, disturbing emotions, negative emotions, or mind poisons.

 * In the contemporary Mahayana and Theravada Buddhist traditions, the three kleshas of ignorance, attachment, and aversion are identified as the root or source of all other kleshas. These are referred to as the three poisons in the Mahayana tradition, or as the three unwholesome roots in the Theravada tradition.

 * The early Buddhist texts of the Pali canon generally referred to the kleshas (kilesas in Pali) as mental states that temporarily cloud the mind and manifest in unskillful actions. Over time the kleshas, and in particular the three poisons, came to be seen as the very roots of samsaric existence.

I have discussed this change with Larry (see discussion above) offline, and he has given his assent. The main purpose of this change to to first provide the information of most interest to a general audience, and then provide the information of most interest to scholars. — Dorje108 (talk • contribs) 02:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

 * Kudos Dorje! You are an exemplar of thoughtful, consensus-building, conscientious editing on WP. - Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 14:54, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Propose changing the name of this article to "Klesha"
I propose renaming (or moving) this article as follows:
 * FROM: Kleśā (Buddhism)
 * TO: Klesha (Buddhism)

For the following reasons:
 * The term Kleśā used in the current title is actually an incorrect spelling of the Sanskrit term (there is no long "a", as far as I know)
 * The spelling "Klesha" is the most commonly spelling of this term in contemporary Buddhist texts. It is used by contemporary authors/translators such as Daniel Goleman, Mark Epstein, and Chogyam Trunpa Rinpoche. (See the main article for references on Goleman and Epstein.)

Note: As far as I am aware, there are two correct spellings for this Sanskrit term: either Klesha or Kleśa. And since "Klesha" is easier to read, write and pronounce, and commonly used by contemporary translators, I think it is the best choice. My understanding of the wikipedia guidelines is that an article of this importance should be accessible to a general audience. I believe the simpler spelling is more accessible to people unfamiliar with Sanskrit.

I'll wait a few days for comments before making this change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje108 (talk • contribs) 22:30, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

ADDENDUM:
 * I forgot to sign my previous post above.
 * If I make this above change, I will also update the other articles that use the same spelling.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje108 (talk • contribs) 22:34, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

 * Just to potentially expedite this request, as a main contributor to this article, I'd like to add that I support Dorje's proposed change based on his straight-forward reasoning. I'm not even sure how to type the diacritic mark above the "s" in this article's current title.  (Of course, for those who are savvy enough to type in such a diacritic, we'd have the current title redirect to the [proposed] "Klesha (Buddhism)" page.)
 * In addition, while I know very little about Sanskrit, I do see that Monier Williams (1899, p. 324, as seen here) uses a short-a at the end of klesha. Perhaps the long-a is a plural form?  (I believe that such, at least, is the case for the Pali term, "kilesa" -- where "kilesā" is the nominative and vocative plural as well as one of the ablative singular forms....)
 * Kudos to Dorje for his continued efforts to develop consensus while improving this article, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 02:19, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Another penny's worth of thinking: I see now that concern about this article's title's final long-a was mentioned above at Talk:Kleśā_(Buddhism).  (Curious that this article's parallel Hindu article also seems to perpetuate this apparent error:  Kleśā_(Hinduism)). - Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 02:28, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

 * Another note: I think that the plural form of this work is much more common, so I am amending my proposal slightly to use the plural form (i.e. Kleshas) rather than the singular (Klesha). Dorje108 (talk) 22:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

 * UPDATE:
 * I've moved this as proposed.
 * I've attempted to also move the page Kleśā to Kleshas, but "Kleshas" is currently a redirect page, so I have added a request for "speedy deletion" to the "Kleshas" page, so that move can go through. When that move goes through, I will also move the page "Kleśā (Hinduism). Dorje108 (talk) 01:41, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I just performed the move. Does Kleśā (Hinduism) need to go somewhere else too? Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 10:23, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I've moved Kleśā (Hinduism) to Kleshas (Hinduism), in order to keep the spelling consistent. Dorje108 (talk) 11:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

ADDENDUM:
 * There is support for this approach of using the simplified transliteration as the primary transliteration in these guidelines:
 * Naming_conventions_(Indic).
 * Note that these guidelines are still in the proposal stage, but at least there is some consensus for this approach. - Dorje108 (talk) 18:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Pali section: kilesa vs. upakkilesa
I wrote the Pali literature section of this article and it has a possible problem that I've not gotten around to clarifying for a long time and I'm not sure when I'll get time to do so: the section (openly, especially through a plethora of endnotes) does not maintain a bright-line distinction between kilesa and upakkilesa (and even, perhaps, sa.mkilesa).

Is this distinction important? I really don't know. I'm hoping not, because if it is important then the Pali section could be misleading (depending on one's objectives for reading this article, e.g., historical textual scrutiny). Why did I blur this line when creating this section? I of course no longer really remember but suspect, to the best of my feeble recollections, that it was initially because, in the Samyutta Nikaya (SLTP redaction?), the grouping (sa.myutta) entitled, "Kilesa" (SN 27), actually uses the term "upakkilesa" throughout its verses (e.g., also see the so-called "Kilesa Sutta," SN 46.33: "pañcime cittassa upakkilesā ...." [emphasis added]) -- suggesting that at least some redactor(s) somewhere in Theravadan history did not think this distinction was so important. In addition, again according to my foggy, highly questionable memory, the term "kilesa" per se does not seem to come up with significant regularity in the Pali Canon's Sutta Pitaka, as suggested by this comment in Rhys Davids & Stede (1921-5, p. 217):

 * Kilesa (and klesa) [from kilissati] 1. stain, soil, impurity, fig. affliction; in a moral sense, depravity, lust. Its occurrence in the Piṭakas is rare; in later works, very frequent .... [Emphasis added. Source: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:579.pali ]

Why I am writing this now: Mostly I'm prompted by Dorje's continued work on polishing this article -- trying to make it smarter and more beneficial. So, I figure placing this cautionary note here is better than nothing. In addition, I'd like to mention a couple of resources that others might value reading and/or want to include somehow, if they are motivated to attempt to address this in a thoughtful manner. In particular, in the Sutta Pitaka, there is significant material on the upakkilesā, such as in Majjhima Nikaya suttas 7 and 8. (Here, for instance, is a document Ven. Bodhi created regarding the 16 upakkilesas enumerated in MN 7: http://www.bodhimonastery.com/bm/images/stories/documents/MN_Handouts/M0040_MN-007_Upakkilesa.pdf .  And here's a Ven. Nyanaponika preface to his translations of MN 7 and MN 8 highlighting "upakkilesa" -- which he appears to translate simply as "defilements":  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel061.html .)  (That that Sister Upalavanna, I believe, generally translates "upakkilesa" as "minor defilement.") In addition, four upakkilesa (intoxicants, sex, accepting gold & silver, wrong livelihood -- presumably aimed at bhikkhu[ni]s?) are mentioned in AN 4.50 (e.g., here's Ven. Thanissaro's translation: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.050.than.html .)

Personally, I think the Sutta Pitaka subsection might benefit from two sub-subsections: kilesa and upakkilesa ... someday? (Am I splitting too many hairs?)

Better than nothing? I apologize if not, Larry (24.225.67.227 (talk) 15:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC))

Removing topic on "International Nath Order (INO) perspectives"
Respectfully removing the topic "International Nath Order (INO) perspectives" and corresponding links. These are interesting links, but this is an article about kleshas within the Buddhist tradition, and the Nath group is not in the Buddhist tradition. These links are included on the article Kleshas (Hinduism). For guidelines on external links, see External links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje108 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Delusion
Just a simple note to say that I am for changing the translation of *moha* to "confusion" and not "delusion." I heard Steven Batchelor use this translation on a podcast yesterday and suddenly the whole thing made sense. "Delusion" has connotations of mental visions of grandeur that I do not think are meant by *moha*, which clearly references something that is broadly and universally applicable to the whole of mankind.

On the other hand, I think every English speaker can look at their life and understand immediately what "confusion" would mean. The wikipedia article on moha and this article make clear that there are alternate translations. It seems to me that "delusion" is becoming more and more antiquated and ought to be eventually expelled.

I would be happy with "delusion/confusion" in the meantime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.226.84.71 (talk) 19:50, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Kleshas
These articles and their redirects need to be untangled: Kleshas (Hinduism), Kleshas, and Kleshas (Buddhism). Particular attention needs to be paid to Kleshas, which used to be a disambiguation page. Right now it says The Five Poisons are five perceived threats to the stability of the rule of the Communist Party of China., with nothing about the etymology and no mention of the other articles. It seems fine to me if it's an overview or summary article instead of a dab page, but it's incomplete as it is.

The redirects to these articles seem pretty random; sorting them out might be easy for someone knowledgeable in these areas. — Gorthian (talk) 19:24, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Kleshas (Buddhism)