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Talk:Doctor Who theme music

Best title?
Just wondering: wouldn't a better title be the shorter "Doctor Who theme"? "Doctor Who theme music" seems a bit unweildy and not often used. Also, if the track listings of the various soundtracks are to be believed, then the correct title for the theme is simply "Doctor Who", so perhaps "Doctor Who (theme)" or even "Doctor Who (music)" would be better? This title should redirect, of course. -- Guybrush 13:50, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

 * "Doctor Who theme" is not disambiguous enough; it could refer to literary themes, for example. "Doctor Who music" would then imply a treatment of the incidental music as well as the theme tune. Best to leave it as is, really. --khaosworks (talk• contribs) 14:06, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Fix to Fixx section?
I can't find the Doctor Who theme anywhere in the Fixx's "Saved By Zero" song. The text that asserts its presence was written by the mysterious 80.168.226.10 :), so there might not be any way to check with him or her; can someone else listen to it and point out anything I'm missing? And if I'm not missing it, can we write it off as conjecture and cut the reference?  I mean, back when Genesis released their Abacab LP, I thought the song "Me and Sarah Jane" must surely be a Who reference.  I was wrong. :) --Jay (Histrion) 01:42, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Doctor at the Disco?
I really dislike the use of the phrase 'disco' to describe the Peter Howell arrangement of the theme; it brings to mind late-1970s disco-orchestrated arrangements of famous pieces a la "Saturday Night Fever". Whilst it was undoubtedly a modernisation of the theme, Howell's arrangement is if anything more 1980s, but with a depth and creativity (that vocoder stuff is great) that stands up far better than most synthesised pieces of the time.

Yes, I'm aware that John Nathan-Turner used the expression 'disco' to indicate what he was looking for. That as may be, it isn't a particularly flattering or accurate description of the end result.

Fourohfour 21:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I have attempted a rephrase. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:22, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Definitely better (^_^) Fourohfour 00:12, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

POV?
Anyone else have reservations about some of the most recent additions;
 * Although this version was positively noted for having greater pace (and being supposedly more exciting) than the earlier version, it has been critcised as being too frivolous in tone and not scary enough.

Not as scary? Perhaps. Frivolous? I don't get that at all. And more notably:-
 * (even though it was arguably the most "spooky" rendition of the music to date);

Arguable by who? Is there a reasonable case for this beyond personal opinion?
 * due to fans complaining it was "too quiet" and varied too much in tone (sounding almost melancholic at one point, and ecstatic the next).

Are these widely-voiced criticisms, or are they just POV put into the third person?

Fourohfour 22:22, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Definitely POV. I've removed them. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:39, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

 * But saying that it was "not so well received" is not POV? Several sources (including the infamous "Television Companion") talk as thought Mr. Glynn's version was the best rendition of all, whilst simply saying that it was not popular - without any citation - is perfectly acceptable? NP Chilla 12:38, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The Television Companion's opinion is clearly signposted as opinion, not a reporting of the fan reaction at the time, which although divided, was mostly critical of the Glynn arrangement. Please cite your other sources. JNT seemed to agree, which is partly why he went for the McCulloch arrangement and retired the Glynn one after only one season. But, if you really want a citation, see http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sps/serials/7d.html, for one. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 16:14, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Pink Floyd and pogues link is tennuos
I would delete this bit:

The Pogues used a bass line in their song "Wild Cats of Kilkenny" (from Rum, Sodomy & the Lash) that is similar to the Doctor Who theme, as did Pink Floyd in "One of These Days" (from Meddle).

There are bucketloads of songs that use this very standard bass/chord progression, I've used it myself many times. It surely pre-dates Dr Who and i'm sure that Ron Grainer would never have claimed to have made it up himself. quercus robur 01:53, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

 * The Pogues did say that the Doctor Who reference in "Wild Cats" was intentional in an interview once, and Pink Floyd used to do a rendition of the theme during live performances of "One of These Days". --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:09, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Fairy 'nuff- have added that information to the Pogues ref- don't spose you've got a reference? quercus robur 18:52, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Damn, unfortunately I don't - it was some time ago. You can either take my word for it, or if you insist, take it out. I'm all right with either. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 00:42, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

 * No its fine as far as I'm concerned quercus robur 18:13, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

It would be worthy to note that seperate from the progressive baseline of the Doctor Who theme, one can hear the harmony being played out in a distorted and muffled manner within the version of One of These Days on the Delicate Sound of Thunder live set. In the "quiet" portion of the song before the slide guitar and drums pick up and the singular line is spoken, the "doo-dooo-doooh" (as it were) portion of the Doctor Who theme is played out by the guitar. It takes some listening to make it out, but is indeed there, and unmistakably a unique audio connection to Who.

The Floyd bit is really quite noticeable, especially on the "Live At Pompeii Version"86.16.153.191 (talk) 23:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

North American sports events?
(HOTR added this to the paragraph about "Doctorin' the Tardis": "The tune has become a staple during sports events in North America though most in the audience are unaware of the Doctor Who programme itself." Khaosworks removed it while I was writing the paragraph below, but I figured it was worth comment anyway.)

Isn't the tune that's common in North American sports events the Gary Glitter original, rather than the Timelords' mix of Glitter and Derbyshire? (I admit that I'm geeky enough to be much more familiar with "Doctorin' the Tardis" than with "Rock and Roll (Part 1)", but when I hear it played during a football game I always assumed they were playing the latter, and only people like me would be tempted to sing "Doctor Who-oo, Doc-tor Who" along with it. :) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:33, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

 * That was my reading of the edit as well. I've heard Rock and Roll Part 1 a lot, but it's distinct from Doctorin' the TARDIS... no Daleks, for one. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 08:41, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Dwgoldtheme.ogg
I've listed Image:Dwgoldtheme.ogg on Copyright problems/2006 January 17 if anyone wants to weigh in on this. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 23:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I still think it counts as fair use, and in fact, the Beeb would probably give us permission if we asked nicely...they like WP quite a lot, linking to it from BBC News articles and so on.--TheDoctor10 (talk|email) 08:33, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * As I've pointed out, it doesn't meet the criteria for fair use, least of all because it's the whole thing. You can't just assume permission, as well, sadly. And I have my doubts that they would consent to releasing the theme under the GFDL. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 08:43, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Who mentioned releasing anything under GFDL? I said that they might license it to Wikipedia. Feel free to crop it, but there ought to be at least one copy of it on WP.--TheDoctor10 (talk|email) 13:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * We don't need a copy of it on WP if it's available as an external link on the BBC web site. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 13:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

But you can't download it on an external site. Anyway, since hardly anyone can read .ogg files anyway, it's hardly worth discussing. If you want, I'll email the BBC. But they won't chase us up on it anyway, even if someone complains; like I said, they like Wikipedia a lot.--TheDoctor10 (talk|email) 17:08, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Forgive me if I don't take your word for it, as you cannot speak for the BBC. The purpose of fair use, of including it in an encyclopedic article is supposed to be for informative purposes, not for downloading and personal use. If the BBC didn't mind about releasing the theme for everyone, then why didn't they just provide a downloadable link? The fact that they did not, and that even the sample that they allowed to be streamed was only an excerpt, suggests to me that they are not inclined to release the copyrights. I don't think that the Wikimedia Foundation will find the phrase, "Oh, they'll never chase up on it because they like us," very reassuring. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 17:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

They may not find it re-assuring, but it's a fact. The BBC don't provide a link because that's the first place anyone would look. No-one (probably) would say to themselves "I know, I'll do a copyright infringement of the DW theme by getting it from Wikipedia, and translating it into a .wav...". It's easily obtainable from the DVDs, so if it's on WP, it's making it no more succeptible to copyvios than anywhere else.--TheDoctor10 (talk|email) 18:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The difference is that Wikipedia shouldn't be a party to copyright violations, which it would be if it provided the whole theme freely for download. There is such a thing as republisher's liability. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 18:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Shall I ask the Beeb's permission, then?--TheDoctor10 (talk|email) 18:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * If you want, as long as you make it clear to them exactly how much of the theme you're intending to make available for free download. They have to give written persmission as per the provisions of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 18:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I shall do so in the morning, or if you want, you can, since you probably won't beleive me if I say that they said yes.--TheDoctor10 (talk|email) 18:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * No, no, you go ahead. Of course, I shall be very skeptical if they do say yes — we'll need to see the reply, of course, and I'll try and verify it. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 18:37, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've sent: ''Please may Wikipedia (www.wikipedia.org) use a mix of the new, Murray Gold, Middle 8 and the regular theme on their article on Doctor Who theme music (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who_theme_music)? It is quite long, but "gets the atmosphere across". Wikipedia is a project often linked to from BBC News articles, and occasionally the subject of them (news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4534712.stm). Please reply, A Nonymous''.--TheDoctor10 (talk|email) 18:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You should have mentioned that it's the whole of the theme, not an excerpt, or better yet, give them the sound file you intend to put up as well, so they know exactly what is being put up. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 18:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I said that it's a mix of the various bits, anyway, I'm sure we'll email back and fourth a few times before I get permission, so I'll tell then if they specifically ask. However, I feel that it's still fair use.--TheDoctor10 (talk|email) 18:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

NB: WP:CSD - if it's not licenced under the GDFL and it's not fair use, "used with permission" is shoot-on-sight. And remember that lots and lots of sites redistribute WP content. - SoM 21:53, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Dimensions in Time/Shalka
Is it the same theme? Where'd it come from?

 * It's the same theme, just different arrangements. The DiT theme was by a group called Cybertech and the Shalka theme by Creation Music. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 08:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The Cybertech version was released on their album DavidFarmbrough 14:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

5.1 remix version
Should Mark Ayres 5.1 remix available on "The Beginning" DVD boxset be mentioned, somewhere? --JohnDBuell 02:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Big Finish 8th doc
Shouldn't the 8th Doctor theme that Big Finish uses be mentioned here? It is different from all the others. Nothing says this page is specifically for just the BBC versions. Sabalon 17:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Theme not written in Aolean mode / E minor?
I don't have the sheet music to hand cause I'm away from home right now, but I'm pretty sure that the theme is not written in the aolean mode at all. If you listen to the bassline you'll see that the inbetween notes between the alternating E, G and B do not fall on the natural minor scale. Instead they fall entirely on white notes, meaning the key would be E phrygian. It would be inaccurate to say it's written in the key of E minor. I'll double check this against the sheet music and the recordings once I can dig them up. I wonder too if Derbyshire followed the sheet music to the letter. I've a feeling its better to trust to your ear on this than any official sheet music. Anyone else know about this for sure? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68guns (talk • contribs) 19:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't think Derbyshire followed it completely faithfully. The official sheet music made available for the public was in 4/4 time, and the bass was made up of dotted quavers and semi-quavers. But any real versions, Derbyshire included, have the bassline made up of triplet figures and broken triplets, which is a marked difference from the dotted rhythms.

--86.2.173.190 (talk) 10:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've checked now and believe it's wrong to say the piece is in Aeolian mode. The key signature of the sheet music shows it to be in E minor, but the incidentals modify it into a constant phygrian mode. This can be heard quite clearly if you listen and follow the bassline yourself on a piano. It only ever touches white notes, which shows the correct mode of the piece is E Phygrian (E to E, only white notes). Were it in Aolean mode, the F# would be included, but actually F's are played instead. Anyone care to counter this argument? 84.56.215.148 (talk) 16:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I have now corrected the wrong assertion that the theme is written in Aolean (natural minor) mode. It's written in the Phrygrian mode. The single semitone step from first to second note of the scale combined with the flattened seventh is what creates the trademark "spookiness" of the theme. Have also removed this in reference to "Delia's rendition" following the Grainer's score. Why point out that she kept the same key as it was written in when there's no suggestion she changed it? 68guns (talk) 23:15, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

 * In that connection, I think it's at best misleading to say that the middle eight is in the relative major. The signature is E minor and the relative major key of E minor is G, but since the piece is actually in E Phrygian, the major key associated with that scale (that is, the corresponding Ionian mode) is really C, and I think that's also the actual key of the middle eight.  Maybe somebody who knows more about music theory can find a better way to phrase this.  Matt McIrvin (talk) 00:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Changed it to just say "in a major key". Improvements welcome. Matt McIrvin (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I agree with the slightly misleading relationship of a major key to the Phrygian mode; the relative major to E Phrygian would actually be C major (with F natural), however the melody of the middle 8 definitely includes an F sharp, representing an actual modulation. How about this formulation instead: "[modulates to] the relative major (of the E minor tonic)"? Or, "[modulates to] the relative major (of the equivalent minor key on E)"? Regards, Philip Legge User Email Talk 05:12, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Umm, I don't think it's in E Phrygian. The tonic is clearly "A" to me. Although the melody does not include an A-- and COULD have been harmonized to be in E Phrygian-- the bass-line consistently pounds A and C, the tonic and third of A minor. Due to the harmonization, this piece is in A minor, despite the composer's (inexplicable) decision to notate it in E minor, and despite how cool it would be to say that Dr. Who's theme song is in something as exotic as Phrygian mode. It makes me wonder if the melody was originally conceived in E Phrygian, but then when it was harmonized (I guess by Derbyshire) it was harmonically reconceived in A minor. --Chris Jones — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.183.69.210 (talk) 00:14, 22 May 2012 (UTC) Chris Jones is absolutely correct. Both the bass line and melody, as well as other harmonies and counter melodies, are clearly in A minor, and the melody likes to hang around scale degree 5 (E). Use of the "lowered" seventh scale degree (G rather than G#) adds interest to the melody and bassline, but doesn't really make it anything other than A minor tonal. Modulation to C in the bridge, the relative major, is pretty standard for a tonal piece in A minor. If there is an f# in the key signature in the "score", that is odd. Perhaps whoever transcribed it was confused and thought that the first pitch of the melody must be the first scale degree (it is not). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C0:C601:1AE4:DCCA:377E:348D:68BC (talk) 18:08, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

 * What on earth do you mean it's in A minor?? The article is entirely correct to say that it's in E minor (as notated on the sheet music) and that most of the actual instrumentation constitutes E phrygian. The only time A was ever the tonic note in the first place was during the 7th Doctor's opening. SNMWhiteMask (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

What about other music?
I notice that "Doctor Who music" now redirects here (maybe it always has). I think there should be some discussion of other music composed for the series, especially recent compositions such as Love Don't Roam that I understand was a chart hit in the UK. It's also widely anticipated that Kylie Minogue will probably record something for the soundtrack of the 2007 Christmas special (although Billie Piper is also a singer and they never used her in that capacaity). 23skidoo 12:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Murray Gold's middle eight
I've read on several websites (an example being this one) that Gold omitted the middle 8 iniitally because he didn't like it. I've also ready (but can no longer find the link) that he might not have been aware that it was part of the original theme, thinking perhaps it was created for the 1996 TV movie (though I find that hard to believe). Can anyone provide a substantial or printed source in which Gold makes either claim? The articles statement (with source) that he based his decision on the opening/closing sequence formats is the first I've heard of this, and is in fact contradicted by his ability to include the middle 8 in 2006 without the credit sequences being changed in format. 23skidoo 12:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I read somewhere that he said it reminded him too much of Do They Know It's Christmas? (Feed the World).

--86.2.173.190 (talk) 10:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Well tonight that god its Delia, instead of Murray 'bloody' Gold...--feline1 (talk) 00:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:ChaseStrings.OGG
Image:ChaseStrings.OGG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Am I the only one who finds it weird that this sound clip was flagged as an image? 68.146.41.232 (talk) 02:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Chase
What on Earth??? It says in the article that Murray's fast string patterns in the his theme arrangements are known as "the chase". I have never heard this before! Who calls it The Chase? --86.2.173.190 (talk) 10:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Agree. An external citation is definitely needed for this, as in the five years since Gold's new theme has been on the air I've never heard or seen a written reference to the strings' figuration using this name - and a later section even calls it "a counter-melody", which I'd also question. It might be counterpoint but it's not really that melodic, but clearly a repeated motif that's mostly based on the accompanying harmony. Philip Legge User Email Talk 05:20, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That term was coined in fandom, I think because people used the phrase "chase melody" as an alternative to "counter melody". Note the use of lower-case. At some point someone decided it should be given a proper name, but nothing official has ever occurred. The "middle 8" is, however, a term widely used in books and journalism to describe the portion of the theme rarely heard on TV, but even it stays lower-case. 68.146.64.9 (talk) 19:48, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Doctor Who theme excerpt.ogg
The image Image:Doctor Who theme excerpt.ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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Technically, I believe that under UK (and probably international) copyright laws you are able to use up to 30 seconds of a track without notifying the copyright holder. That is my thought, anyway. 82.16.111.95 (talk) 17:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Derbyshire authorship discussion
On the main Doctor Who article discussion, there is a discussion going on regarding whether Delia Derbyshire should be listed with Ron Grainer as the composer of the them tune, with some interesting information regarding her publishing that suggests that her estate may be collecting royalties for its composition. Discussion is here. --Shubopshadangalang (talk) 20:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Sound of Drums
Having just watched Series 3 and Series 4 back to back, I can't help but notice that the drums which were emphasized in the Series 4 theme remake fit the Master's famous drums - 6/8 signature, four beats on and two off - and I'm surprised that this has not been addressed in any of the articles I have read. Was this shift in the theme a coincidence, or was it a deliberate incorporation of the drum signature? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.126.108 (talk) 13:43, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Perhaps an unintended coincidence as a result of those episodes. ButterCashier (talk) 17:32, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Deleted error re: different Doctors
I removed from the introduction an error that said each Doctor had his own version of the theme. This is patently wrong: Hartnell, Troughton shared the original version; Troughton, Pertwee and Baker shared the modified second version; Tom Baker, Davison, and Colin Baker shared the Howell theme; Eccleston and Tennant shared the first Gold version (which was slightly modified during Tennant's time but not enough for it to be a full out new version). That last is up for debate, I'm aware, but the fact the 1967 arrangement was used until 1980 pretty much invalidates the claim on its own. 68.146.80.110 (talk) 11:40, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the case is suggesting that each Doctor had a modified version of the theme unique-ish to them - I'm just going of hazy memory here, but isn't the theme for the Second Doctor markedly different from that for Pertwee (and possibly Baker)? I'm not sure the audio files I have on my computer are the best source to use, but it sounds like Troughton has a theme that's more of a bridger between Hartnell's and the theme from the 70's. I also think Dr Who Reference Guide has each Doctor's 'theme' on their episode guide page - I'm not suggesting it's an authoritative source, but it's a quick way to get a basic idea. Comics (talk) 12:04, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Phrygian using accidentals?
Okay, so this paragraph has a lot of unnecessary explanation: "The theme is written in the mode of E Phrygian, although on the original score the key signature of the piece is E minor and the mode changes are written as accidentals. On a piano this means the bass-line is played entirely using only white notes."

There is a big difference between key and mode, so it's not incorrect to say that the piece is written in the key of E minor, and the melody uses the E phrygian mode. To say "the theme is written in the mode of E phrygian" is correct, and should be included. However, the following statements are based on the assumption that E phrygian is the key. E minor is the key, as confirmed by the sheet music, and the bridge that modulates to the relative major of E minor, G major, as well as the common practise to write melodies using the phrygian mode in that minor key (the key signiature of which represents the Aeolian mode). Therefore, to say "on the original score, the key signiature of the piece is E minor and the mode changes are written as accidentals. On a piano this means the bass-line is played entirely using only white notes" is to state the obvious, and doesn't really relate directly to this particular piece of music, but instead relates to the way in which it is common to write all music.

So, I propose you replace it with a statement such as: "The theme is written in the key of E minor, and the melody uses the E phrygian mode" or something similar... Thoughts? --ProfessorKilroy (talk) 06:34, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Who owns the rights to the Dr. Who theme music?
Who owns the rights to the Dr. Who theme music? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.50.134 (talk) 17:11, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

 * The BBC. ButterCashier (talk) 17:32, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Pink Floyd
Despite someone raising the issue back in 2005 (see above), no one has added a source to confirm the connection with One of These Days. Notably, Wikipedia's own article on the song makes no reference to any Doctor Who connection. 68.146.70.124 (talk) 17:03, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * This may help: How the (Original) 'Doctor Who' Theme Changed Music. — Edokter  ( talk ) — 17:10, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

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80s theme vocoder identity?
The early 80s theme section currently (id 1101493042) describes Peter Howell performing the second melody on an EMS Vocoder 5000. At the 4m43s mark in this 1981 video from the BBC archives he can be clearly seen using a Roland SVC-350. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZuf0LIU-2A

The article currently cites an article from Mark Ayres. While he's certainly quite reputable, I think a contemporary video of Peter himself showing how he did it may be more authoritative. I have very little expertise as a Wikipedia editor, though, so I hope someone more experienced might review the video and either update the article or remove my comment here.

Thanks! 2601:C4:C202:2908:4E:6F31:F3AC:117 (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Doctor Who theme music


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2X

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. CDC  (talk)  18:50, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

2X
This seems to be a subtler form of advertising. Mindmatrix 21:37, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Subtle? Ha! Delete. --W(t) 21:39, 2005 May 27 (UTC)
 * Delete I know an advert when I see one--Sophitus 22:31, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete ad --Xcali 00:42, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2X


text:
Metallurgical Laboratory

The Metallurgical Laboratory (or Met Lab) was a scientific laboratory at the University of Chicago that was established in February 1942 to study and use the newly discovered chemical element plutonium. It researched plutonium's chemistry and metallurgy, designed the world's first nuclear reactors to produce it, and developed chemical processes to separate it from other elements. In August 1942 the lab's chemical section was the first to chemically separate a weighable sample of plutonium, and on 2 December 1942, the Met Lab produced the first controlled nuclear chain reaction, in the reactor Chicago Pile-1, which was constructed under the stands of the university's old football stadium, Stagg Field.

The Metallurgical Laboratory was established as part of the Metallurgical Project, also known as the "Pile" or "X-10" Project, headed by Chicago professor Arthur H. Compton, a Nobel Prize laureate. In turn, this was part of the Manhattan Project – the Allied effort to develop the atomic bomb during World War II. The Metallurgical Laboratory was successively led by Richard L. Doan, Samuel K. Allison, Joyce C. Stearns and Farrington Daniels. Scientists who worked there included Enrico Fermi, James Franck, Eugene Wigner and Glenn Seaborg. Compton assigned Robert Oppenheimer to take over the research into bomb design in June 1942, and that became the separate Project Y in November. At its peak on 1 July 1944, the Met Lab had 2,008 staff.

Chicago Pile-1 was soon moved by the lab to Site A, a more remote location in the Argonne Forest preserves, where the original materials were used to build an improved Chicago Pile-2 to be employed in new research into the products of nuclear fission. Another reactor, Chicago Pile-3, was built at the Argonne site in early 1944. This was the world's first reactor to use heavy water as a neutron moderator. It went critical in May 1944, and was first operated at full power in July 1944. The Metallurgical Laboratory also designed the X-10 Graphite Reactor at the Clinton Engineer Works in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, and the B Reactor at the Hanford Engineer Works in the state of Washington.

As well as the work on reactor development, the Metallurgical Laboratory studied the chemistry and metallurgy of plutonium, and worked with DuPont to develop the bismuth phosphate process used to separate plutonium from uranium. When it became certain that nuclear reactors would involve radioactive materials on a gigantic scale, there was considerable concern about the health and safety aspects, and the study of the biological effects of radiation assumed greater importance. It was discovered that plutonium, like radium, was a bone seeker, making it especially hazardous. The Metallurgical Laboratory became the first of the national laboratories, the Argonne National Laboratory, on 1 July 1946. The work of the Met Lab also led to the creation of the Enrico Fermi Institute and the James Franck Institute at the university.

Origins
The discovery of nuclear fission in uranium by German chemists Otto Hahn and Fritz Strassmann in December 1938, and its theoretical explanation (and naming) by Lise Meitner and Otto Frisch soon after, opened up the possibility that neutrons produced by fission could create a controlled nuclear chain reaction. At Columbia University, Enrico Fermi and Leo Szilard began exploring how this might be achieved. In August 1939, Szilard drafted a confidential letter to the President of the United States, Franklin D. Roosevelt, warning of the possibility of a German nuclear weapon project, and convinced his old friend and collaborator Albert Einstein to co-sign it. This resulted in support for research into nuclear fission by the U.S. government.

In April 1941, the National Defense Research Committee (NDRC), asked Arthur Compton, a Nobel-Prize-winning physics professor at the University of Chicago, to report on the uranium program. Niels Bohr and John Wheeler theorized that heavy isotopes with odd atomic numbers, such as plutonium-239, were fissile. Emilio Segrè and Glenn Seaborg at the University of California produced 28 μg of plutonium in the 60-inch cyclotron there in May 1941, and found that it had 1.7 times the thermal neutron capture cross section of uranium-235. While minute quantities of plutonium-239 could be created in cyclotrons, it was not feasible to produce a large quantity that way. Compton conferred with Eugene Wigner from Princeton University about how plutonium might be produced in a nuclear reactor, and with Robert Serber from the University of Illinois about how the plutonium produced in a reactor might then be chemically separated from uranium it was bred from.

On 20 December, soon after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor that brought the United States into the war, Compton was placed in charge of the plutonium project. Its objectives were to produce reactors to convert uranium to plutonium, to find ways to chemically separate the plutonium from the uranium, and to design and build an atomic bomb. Although a successful reactor had not yet been built, the scientists had already produced several different but promising design concepts. It fell to Compton to decide which of these should be pursued. He proposed an ambitious schedule that aimed to achieve a controlled nuclear chain reaction by January 1943, and to have a deliverable atomic bomb by January 1945.

Compton felt that having teams at Columbia, Princeton, the University of Chicago and the University of California created too much duplication and not enough collaboration, and he resolved to concentrate the work in one location. Nobody wanted to move, and everybody argued in favor of their own location. In January 1942, soon after the United States entered World War II, Compton decided to concentrate the work at his own location, the University of Chicago, where he knew he had the unstinting support of university administration, whereas Columbia was engaged in uranium enrichment efforts and was hesitant to add another secret project. Other factors contributing to the decision were Chicago's central location and the availability of scientists, technicians and facilities in the Midwest that had not yet been taken away by war work. Housing was more readily available, and an inland city was less vulnerable to enemy attack.

Personnel
The new research establishment was formed in February 1942, and named the "Metallurgical Laboratory" or "Met Lab". Some real metallurgy was carried out, but the name was intended as a cover for its activities. The University of Chicago had been considering establishing a research institute into metals, and indeed would do so after the war, so its creation attracted little attention. Compton's plutonium project then became known as the Metallurgical Project. The Metallurgical Laboratory was administered by the University of Chicago under contract to the Office of Scientific Research and Development (OSRD).

Over 5,000 people in 70 research groups participated in Compton's Metallurgical Project, also known as the "Pile" or "X-10" Project, of whom some 2,000 worked in the Metallurgical Laboratory in Chicago. Despite the good salaries being offered, recruiting was difficult. There was competition for scientists and engineers from other defense-related projects, and Chicago was expensive compared with university towns.

Norman Hilberry was associate director of the Metallurgical Project, and Richard L. Doan was appointed the Director of the Metallurgical Laboratory. While Doan was an able administrator, he had difficulty being accepted as the head of the laboratory, since he was not an academic. On 5 May 1943, Compton replaced him with Samuel K. Allison, and appointed Henry D. Smyth as associate director. Initially there were three physics groups, headed by Allison, Fermi and Martin D. Whitaker. Frank Spedding was in charge of the Chemistry Division. He was later succeeded by Herbert McCoy, and then by James Franck. Compton placed Robert Oppenheimer in charge of the bomb design effort in June 1942. In November 1942, this became a separate project, known as Project Y, which was located in Los Alamos, New Mexico.

After the United States Army Corps of Engineers took over the Manhattan Project in August 1942, the Manhattan District coordinated the work. From 17 February 1943, Compton reported to the director of the Manhattan Project, Brigadier General Leslie R. Groves, Jr., instead of the OSRD S-1 Section. The Manhattan District assumed full responsibility for the Metallurgical Laboratory contract on 1 May 1943. Captain J. F. Grafton was appointed the Chicago Area Engineer in August 1942. He was succeeded by Captain Arthur V. Peterson in December 1942. Peterson remained until October 1944. Captain J. F. McKinley became Chicago Area Engineer on 1 July 1945.

Buildings
At first, most of the Laboratory facilities were provided by the University of Chicago. The physicists took over space under the North and West Stands of Stagg Field and in the Service Building, where there was a cyclotron. The chemists took over the George Herbert Jones Laboratory and the Kent Chemical Laboratory. The health group took space in the Anatomy Building, Drexel House, Billings Hospital and the Killis Laboratory and the administrative offices went into Eckhart Hall. Szilard later wrote that "the morale of the scientists could almost be plotted in a graph by counting the number of lights burning after dinner in the offices at Eckhart Hall." When the project outgrew its space in Eckhart Hall, it moved into the nearby Ryerson Hall. The Metallurgical Laboratory eventually occupied 205000 sqft of campus space. About $131,000 worth of alterations were made to buildings occupied by the laboratory but the University of Chicago also had to make alterations for users displaced by it.

The University of Chicago made a 0.73 acre site occupied by tennis courts available to the Manhattan District on a one dollar lease, for the construction of a new chemistry building with 20000 sqft of space. Stone and Webster commenced work on this in September 1942 and it was completed in December. It was soon found to be too small and an adjacent 0.85 acres plot was added to the lease, on which a 30000 sqft annex was built and completed in November 1943. Extensive work was then carried out on the ventilation system to allow the laboratory to work with plutonium more safely. A site containing an ice house and stables owned by the university in Chicago was made available in April 1943. Known as Site B, it was remodeled to provide 62670 sqft of laboratories and workshops for the health and metallurgy groups. The 124th Field Artillery Armory was leased from the state of Illinois to provide more space in March 1944 and about 360000 sqft of space was leased or built, at a cost of $2 million.

For reasons of safety and security, it was not desirable to locate the facilities for experiments with nuclear reactors in densely populated Chicago. Compton selected a site in the Argonne Forest, part of the Forest Preserve District of Cook County, about 20 mi southwest of central Chicago, referred to as 'Site A'. The War Department leased 1088 acres of land there from Cook County for the duration of the war plus one year for a dollar. Construction of facilities including laboratories and service buildings and an access road was commenced in September 1942 and completed in early 1943. Compton appointed Fermi as the first director of the Argonne Laboratory.

Chicago Pile-1
Between 15 September and 15 November 1942, groups under Herbert L. Anderson and Walter Zinn constructed sixteen experimental reactors (known at the time as "piles") under the Stagg Field stands. Fermi designed a new uranium and graphite pile that could be brought to criticality in a controlled, self-sustaining nuclear reaction. Construction at Argonne fell behind schedule due to Stone & Webster's difficulty recruiting enough skilled workers and obtaining the required building materials. This led to an industrial dispute, with union workers taking action over the recruitment of non-union labor. When it became clear that the materials for Fermi's new pile would be on hand before the new structure was completed, Compton approved a proposal from Fermi to build the pile under the stands at Stagg Field.

Construction of the reactor, known as Chicago Pile-1 (CP-1), began on the morning of 16 November 1942. The work was carried out in twelve-hour shifts, with a day shift under Zinn and a night shift under Anderson. When completed, the wooden frame supported an elliptical-shaped structure, 20 ft high, 6 ft wide at the ends and 25 ft across the middle. It contained 6 ST of uranium metal, 50 ST of uranium oxide and 400 ST of graphite, at an estimated cost of $2.7 million. On 2 December 1942, it achieved the first controlled self-sustaining nuclear reaction. On 12 December 1942, CP-1's power output was increased to 200 W, enough to power a light bulb. Lacking shielding of any kind, it was a radiation hazard for everyone in the vicinity. Thereafter, testing was continued at the lower power of 0.5 W.

Chicago Pile-2
The operation of Chicago Pile-1 was terminated on 28 February 1943. It was dismantled and moved to Argonne, where the original materials were used to build Chicago Pile-2 (CP-2). Instead of being spherical, the new reactor was built in a cube-like shape, about 25 ft tall with a base approximately 30 ft square. It was surrounded by concrete walls 5 ft thick that acted as a radiation shield, and with overhead protection from 6 in of lead and 50 in of wood. More uranium was used, so it contained 52 ST of uranium and 472 ST of graphite. No cooling system was provided as it only ran at a few kilowatts. CP-2 became operational in March 1943.

Chicago Pile-3
A second reactor, known as Chicago Pile-3, or CP-3, was built at the Argonne site in early 1944. This was the world's first reactor to use heavy water as a neutron moderator. It had been unavailable when CP-1 was built, but was now becoming available in quantity thanks to the Manhattan Project's P-9 Project. The reactor was a large aluminum tank, 6 ft in diameter, which was filled with heavy water, which weighed about 6.5 ST. The cover was pierced by regularly spaced holes through which 121 uranium rods sheathed in aluminum projected into the heavy water. The tank was surrounded by a graphite neutron reflector, which in turn was surrounded by a lead shield, and by concrete. Shielding on the top of the reactor consisted of layers of 1 ft square removable bricks composed of layers of iron and masonite. The heavy water was cooled with a water-cooled heat exchanger. As well as the control rods, there was an emergency mechanism for dumping the heavy water into a tank below. Construction began on 1 January 1944. The reactor went critical in May 1944, and was first operated at full power of 300 kW in July 1944.

During the war Zinn allowed it to be run around the clock, and its design made it easy to conduct experiments. This included tests to investigate the properties of isotopes such as tritium and determine the neutron capture cross section of elements and compounds that might be used to construct future reactors, or occur in impurities. They were also used for trials of instrumentation, and in experiments to determine thermal stability of materials, and to train operators.

Production piles
The design of the reactors for plutonium production involved several problems, not just in nuclear physics but in engineering and construction. Issues such as the long-term effect of radiation on materials received considerable attention from the Metallurgical Laboratory. Two types of reactors were considered: homogeneous, in which the moderator and fuel were mixed together, and heterogeneous, in which the moderator and fuel were arranged in a lattice configuration. By late 1941, mathematical analysis had shown that the lattice design had advantages over the homogeneous type, and so it was chosen for CP-1, and for the later production reactors as well. For a neutron moderator, graphite was chosen on the basis of its availability compared with beryllium or heavy water.

The decision of what coolant to use attracted more debate. The Metallurgical laboratory's first choice was helium, because it could be both a coolant and a neutron moderator. The difficulties of its use were not overlooked. Large quantities would be required, and it would have to be very pure, with no neutron-absorbing impurities. Special blowers would be required to circulate the gas through the reactor, and the problem of leakage of radioactive gases would have to be solved. None of these problems were regarded as insurmountable. The decision to use helium was conveyed to DuPont, the company responsible for building the production reactors, and was initially accepted.

In early 1943, Wigner and his Theoretical Group that included Alvin Weinberg, Katharine Way, Leo Ohlinger, Gale Young and Edward Creutz produced a design for a production reactor with water cooling. The choice of water as a coolant was controversial, as it was known to absorb neutrons, thereby reducing the efficiency of the reactor, but Wigner was confident that his group's calculations were correct and that with the purer graphite and uranium that was now available, water would work, while the technical difficulties involved in using helium as a coolant would delay the project.

The design used a thin layer of aluminum to protect the uranium from corrosion by the cooling water. Cylindrical uranium slugs with aluminum jackets would be pushed through channels through the reactor and drop out the other side into a cooling pond. Once the radioactivity subsided, the slugs would be taken away and the plutonium extracted. After reviewing the two designs, the DuPont engineers chose the water-cooled one. In 1959 a patent for the reactor design would be issued in the name of Creutz, Ohlinger, Weinberg, Wigner, and Young.

The use of water as a coolant raised the problem of corrosion and oxidation of the aluminum tubing. The Metallurgical Laboratory tested various additives to the water to determine their effect. It was found that corrosion was minimized when the water was slightly acidic, so dilute sulfuric acid was added to the water to give it a pH of 6.5. Other additives such as sodium silicate, sodium dichromate and oxalic acid were also introduced to the water to prevent a build up of film that could inhibit the circulation of the cooling water. The fuel slugs were given a jacket of aluminum to protect the uranium metal from corrosion that would occur if it came into contact with the water, and to prevent the venting of gaseous radioactive fission products that might be formed when they were irradiated. Aluminum was chosen because the cladding had to transmit heat but not absorb too many neutrons. The aluminum canning process was given close attention, as ruptured slugs could jam or damage the channels in the reactor, and the smallest holes could vent radioactive gases. The Metallurgical Laboratory investigated production and testing regimes for the canning process.

An important area of research concerned the Wigner effect. Under bombardment by neutrons, the carbon atoms in the graphite moderator can be knocked out of the graphite's crystalline structure. Over time, this causes the graphite to heat and swell. Investigation of the problem would take most of 1946 before a fix was found.

Chemistry and metallurgy
Metallurgical work concentrated on uranium and plutonium. Although it had been discovered over a century before, little was known about uranium, as evidenced by the fact that many references gave a figure for its melting point that was off by nearly 500 °F (280 °C). Edward Creutz investigated it and discovered that at the right temperature range, uranium could be hammered and rolled, and drawn into the rods required by the production reactor design. It was found that when uranium was cut, the shavings would burst into flame. Working with Alcoa and General Electric, the Metallurgical Laboratory devised a method of soldering the aluminum jacket to the uranium slug.

Under pressure to identify a source of processed uranium, in April 1942 Compton, Spedding and Hilberry met with Edward Mallinckrodt at his chemical company's headquarters in St. Louis, Missouri. The company devised and implemented a novel uranium processing technique using ether, submitted successful test materials by mid-May, supplied the material for the first self-sustaining reaction in December, and had satisfied the project's entire order of the first sixty tons before the contract was signed.

The metallurgy of plutonium was completely unknown, for it had only recently been discovered. In August 1942, Seaborg's team chemically isolated the first weighable amount of plutonium from uranium irradiated in the Jones Laboratory. Until reactors became available, minuscule amounts of plutonium were produced in the cyclotron at Washington University in St. Louis. The chemistry division worked with DuPont to develop the bismuth phosphate process used to separate plutonium from uranium.

Health and safety
The dangers of radiation poisoning had become well known due to the experience of the radium dial painters. When it became certain that nuclear reactors would involve radioactive materials on a gigantic scale, there was considerable concern about the health and safety aspects. Robert S. Stone, who had worked with Ernest Lawrence at the University of California, was recruited to head the Metallurgical Project's health and safety program. Simeon Cutler, a radiologist, assumed responsibility for radiation safety in Chicago, before moving on to head the program at the Hanford Site. Groves appointed Stafford L. Warren from the University of Rochester as head of the Manhattan Project's Medical Section. Over time, the study of the biological effects of radiation assumed greater importance. It was discovered that plutonium, like radium, was a bone seeker, making it especially hazardous.

The Metallurgical Laboratory's Health Division set standards for radiation exposure. Workers were routinely tested at University of Chicago clinics, but this could be too late. Personal quartz fiber dosimeters were procured, as were film badge dosimeters, which recorded cumulative dosage. Stone's Health Division worked closely with William P. Jesse's Instrumentation Group in the Physics Division to develop detectors, including portable Geiger counters. Herbert M. Parker created a metric for radiation exposure he called the roentgen equivalent man or rem. After the war, this replaced the roentgen as the standard measure of radiation exposure. Work to assess the toxicity of plutonium got under way when the plutonium semiworks at the Clinton Engineer Works began producing it in 1943. The project set a limit of 5 micrograms (μg) in the body, and work practices and workplaces at Chicago and Clinton were modified to ensure that this standard was met.

Later activities
During 1943 and 1944, the Metallurgical Laboratory focused on first getting the X-10 Graphite Reactor at the Clinton Engineer Works up and running, and then the B Reactor at the Hanford Site. By the end of 1944, the focus had switched to training operators. Much of the chemistry division moved to Oak Ridge in October 1943, and many personnel were transferred to other Manhattan Project sites in 1944, particularly Hanford and Los Alamos. Fermi became a division head at Los Alamos in September 1944, and Zinn became the director of the Argonne Laboratory. Allison followed in November 1944, taking with him many of the Metallurgical Laboratory's staff, including most of the instrument section. He was replaced by Joyce C. Stearns. Farrington Daniels, who became associate director on 1 September 1944, succeeded Stearns as director on 1 July 1945.

Where possible, the University of Chicago attempted to re-employ workers who had been transferred from the Metallurgical Laboratory to other projects once their work had ended. Replacing staff was nearly impossible, as Groves had ordered a staffing freeze. The only division to grow between November 1944 and March 1945 was the health division; all the rest lost 20 percent or more of their staff. From a peak of 2,008 staff on 1 July 1944, the number of people working at the Metallurgical Laboratory fell to 1,444 on 1 July 1945.

The end of the war did not end the flow of departures. Seaborg left on 17 May 1946, taking much of what remained of the chemistry division with him. On 11 February 1946, the Army reached an agreement with University President Robert Hutchins for the staff and equipment of the Metallurgical Project to be taken over by a regional laboratory based at Argonne, which the university still manages. On 1 July 1946, the Metallurgical Laboratory became Argonne National Laboratory, the first designated national laboratory, with Zinn as its first director. The new laboratory had 1,278 staff on 31 December 1946, when the Manhattan Project ended, and responsibility for the national laboratories passed to the Atomic Energy Commission, which replaced the Manhattan Project on 1 January 1947. The work of the Metallurgical Laboratory also led to the founding of the Enrico Fermi Institute, as well as the James Franck Institute, at the University of Chicago.

Payments made to the University of Chicago under the original 1 May 1943 non-profit contract totaled $27,933,134.83, which included $647,671.80 in construction and remodeling costs. The contract expired on 30 June 1946, and was replaced by a new contract, which ended on 31 December 1946. A further $2,756,730.54 was paid under this contract, of which $161,636.10 was spent on construction and remodeling. An additional $49,509.83 was paid to the University of Chicago for the restoration of its facilities.

In 1974, the United States government began cleaning up the old Manhattan Project sites under the Formerly Utilized Sites Remedial Action Program (FUSRAP). This included those used by the Metallurgical Laboratory. Stagg Field had been demolished in 1957, but 23 locations in Kent Laboratory were decontaminated in 1977, and another 99 at the Eckhart, Ryerson, and the Jones Laboratory in 1984. About 600 cuft of solid and three 55-gallon drums of liquid waste were collected and shipped to various sites for disposal. The Atomic Energy Commission terminated its lease on the Armory site in 1951, and it was restored to the state of Illinois. Testing in 1977, 1978 and 1987 indicated residual levels of radioactivity that exceeded Department of Energy guidelines, so decontamination was carried out in 1988 and 1989, after which the site was declared suitable for unrestricted use.

title: Metallurgical Laboratory


text:
Talk:Jason McCaslin

NPOV
This article needs to be edited to have a NPOV. Alangstone 21:38, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * This article needs to be edited to have sanity. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 06:31, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

Ice cream
i highly doubt "ice Cream" story, more likely about marijuana.

Re: No, that (ice cream) actually is the reason, I also remember seeing it in a Sum 41 documentary on Much Music (a Canadian music TV station) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.131.75 (talk) 03:09, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

also, this article reflects his personality

I just added a few references to that story.--NotYouHaha! (talk) 22:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Unencyclopedic content
This article is a disaster through and through, both in content and in technical quality, especially in the Facts section. ("He is lactose intolerant, which he says sucks since he loves ice cream- the reason he got his nickname"? Come on, people!  At least have the decency to find a source for this assertion and surround "sucks" with quotes.)

Another gem: "He sings 3 songs, song being "Someone Like You", which will be appearing on the debut record."I have no idea what this sentence was supposed to say, so I have interpreted it as best I can. I leave it to someone else to verify said interpretation.

I don't even know where to start editing this mess. I'm not going to waste my time trying to verify this disorganized, jumbled pile of supposed facts, but I'll at least try to make it somewhat readable. --Nonstopdrivel 16:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

he says hes lactose intolerant on his website in response to a question: http://www6.islandrecords.com/site/artist_newsinfo.php?uf_item_id=2-1669666&uf_system_id=0&artist_id=259 74.13.110.82 (talk) 03:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Re-write
someone needs to rewrite this article, it's bloody awful... LukeTheSpook (talk) 08:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources Message
I'm adding a this message message for this page.--NotYouHaha! (talk) 03:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm taking it off and adding a new template, the article has references, it just needs more. - - [ The Spooky One ] | [ t c r ] 04:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Jason McCaslin