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Talk:Metal music

Removed redirect page
I removed the redirect page because a lot of musical experts consider Heavy Metal part of Metal, and not vice-versa. So the article page is intended to describe the entire genre globally, and the important elements that make metal to be metal. The article is also useful as a summary where anyone can reach the page of the desired subgenre. Olpus
 * What band of metal doesn't consider itself Heavy Metal? Can you name a band that strongly rejects the notion that they are Heavy Metal? This is like making an article on "True Metal". This article should definitely be merged with the metal music article.--Sampi 02:58, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * All new metal bands doing other genre of Metal that are founded after 1990 consider themself part of a genre of Metal, and not all Heavy Metal, since now it is used to define the classical type of Metal played in last seventeens. To answer to your questions with another questions: what band that played Metal in the late '70 call them Metal? Ozzie Ousborne most known quote is "Rock and Roll". And if Heavy Metal isn't actually used to define a subgenere of Metal, but it is the same thing, in which subgenre you put bands like Iron Maiden, that are still active? Thrash Metal? Too much slow and music less ridundant. Black Metal? Played too much clear. Progressive Metal? I argue not. --Olpus

Origin of "doom" in doom metal
The version I've heard is that it rather comes from the title of the first Candlemass album, "Epicus Doomicus Metallicus". Is there even any definite agreement on this?
 * Hand of doom? Spearhead 20:43, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Doom Metal
The listing of subgenres should be moved to doom metal's own page, the part should also be rewritten to better form (ex. the use of capital MANY, the dubbing of drone as "odd" etc). Shandolad 09:05, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Subgenres?
All the listed "subgenres" are defined (on their own pages) as subgenres of heavy metal, if so, this is equating metal music to heavy metal music, perhaps a merge would suit then? -- ( ☺ drini ♫ | ☎ ) 05:19, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Ideally, the heavy metal article would correctly be restricted only to that particular sub-genre of metal and all of the pages would link here, but this one is lacking in content and that nifty box on the right of the page. 67.4.150.81 06:04, 28 September 2005 (UTC)Alex
 * I agree. The Heavy Metal article holds much higher standards, but is wrong in it's naming. One could perhaps use the box on this page as well.Shandolad 12:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that the content of Heavy Metal article, with a rework to make him to embrace more all Metal genres and less Heavy Metal in particular, and with the addition of the definition of what is Metal, should written in the Metal Music aticle, and the Heavy Metal page changed to feature only information about Heavy Metal subgenre and bands. Olpus

Today I merged the "subgenres of metal" page to the metal msuic page, as it was basically a repeat of old stuff etc. I have started to rewrite some of the old writting, but with uni, I am only able to do a little at a time - nykylaihellray

Thrash Metal
"Thrash metal", "melo-death metal" and "goregrind metal" are redundant (as with, say, "New Wave rock", "bebop jazz" or "Baroque classical") and should generally be avoided unless necessary to clarify.SonoftheMorning 20:14, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I heard some ppl refer to bands like DRI as thrash and speed metal as like Exodus; eg Spearhead 20:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * That is, "thrash metal" as opposed to just "thrash", the speed metal vs. thrash/power debate is one which I'm not about to take sides in (although anus.com is not a particularly credible source). SonoftheMorning 21:31, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Rush
Rush's important albums were concurrent with early Priest, and they're later than Tull and King Crimson (or other less relevant prog bands like The Moody Blues) to begin with. Motley Crue and sundry dark ambient bands are also on MA despite the notable disadvantages of not being metal, so it's more about the administrator(s)' caprices than any particular influence on the genre. They were certainly a major influence on prog metal, and they're mentioned as such in the evolution section.SonoftheMorning 07:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Metal Categories
I noticed that the various Metal Categories and sub-Categories are not organized very well....or at least they are not consistent. The Metal navigational template (which is quite good) is not used consistently. I would like to start up a discussion to propose a new consistent category setup for all Heavy metal subgenres, bands and band lists as well as clean up the existing articles.

Anyone feel like this is a good idea? - Chelman 22:34, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Subgenres
There IS already an article listing (heavy) metal genres and subgenres, so the list in this article is unnecesary.

What's also unnecesary is the Black Sabbath ass-kissing. "Oh, they're the ONE TRUE FIRST METAL band EVER and FATHERS TO ALL METAL BRETHREN" is what the article is saying to me.

 * I have to agree; in many instances "metal" is just a shorthand version of "heavy metal", and "heavy metal" is not intended to be a specific genre, especially since the term has been in use since the 70s. Also, rock scholars debate the true birth of metal as its own distincive style within rock music, since it isn't as cut and dried as it might appear.  The genre's development occured over a long time, so it seems somewhat pretentious to make claims about "true" or "pure" metal since there really is no such thing and the genre has been evolving throughout its entire existence.  Additionally, many would argue that Led Zeppelin are the "first" heavy metal band; to me Zep and Sabbath have equal claim due to their extrapolation of the blues into driving, heavy, riff-oriented rock music that was beyond what Cream or Hendrix and the like were doing.  This article seems based largely on preconceptions held by the modern metal community rather than actual research, and I feel that should be rectified if this page is going to exist at all.  However, it'd rather just have it merged with the heavy metal music page WesleyDodds 11:09, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I have always felt Heavy Metal being a genre, or a very old fashioned (if something can get old fashioned in this short a time..) name for the whole genre. It feels wrong to label Black Metal a part of Heavy Metal, but in the end it might be best to merge it with Heavy Metal, for historical reasons and due to the fact that the heavy metal page holds a much higher standard. It is true that the origins for modern metal is found in heavy metal, I am bound to agree. Even if my metal heart tells me not to! Heh. Shandolad 18:23, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Death Metal, Black Metal, Tech metal
These sub-genres aren't described in a truthful way, in my own opinion. Black Metal for example, might, but isn't "regularly" accompanied by slow and sombre keyboard, Black Metal didn't evolve from Death Metal (most would argue they evolved at the same time, black metal being inspired by Celtic Frost, Venom etc in the early 1980's) and so on.

It is also, I would argue, not quite true that most current death metal bands dabble in "neo-classicism, Jazz-fusion, medieval music, or folk and symphonic endeavors.". It is certainly true that Opeth does, but I could not say that it is the most common form.

Thirdly, I do not think Tech Metal is a subgenre of Metal, more truthfully a form of "technical death metal". Bands such as Deeds of Flesh, Disgorge, Nile and origin all play in this genre. It might be that the article is referring to the band Meshuggah, which is very much one of a kind in current metal. The lack of proper exemplification in the article ("Tech Metal is characterised by a show of skill, changeable time signatures, and often dissonant or atonal guitar riffs") makes it hard to tell, but seems to refer mostly to technical death metal.

The Death and Black metal parts should be rewritten and expanded somewhat, tech metal should be moved to the Death Metal article. Shandolad 11:26, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Agreed. Also, some bands in these sections are miscategorized; for example, Wintersun are melodic black metal, not melodic death metal. Cassandra Leo 22:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Links not conform
The links are commented in a way which does not conform with wikipedia standards, I believe it unfitting for wikipedia to grade ("One of the best up and coming" etc) the sites. They should be chosen on terms of size and so on. Also, many of the links aren't needed here. Shandolad 12:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Merging this page with Heavy Metal page?
I don´t know if everyone here agrees with me, but Metal is a contraction of Heavy Metal, and is used as a synonym. Metal is NOT a separated genre. Altough some would argue that Heavy Metal is a term depicting old style metal bands (see the contradiction, you would call old style metal band a heavy metal band, so metal is heavy metal), I think it is just prejudice against the older, longer, term for METAL which is HEAVY METAL. What could be argued is that not every Heavy Metal band or song is heavy. Many prog-metal bands have very mellow ballads, but they are still considered Heavy Metal bands. I think that this article should be merged into the Heavy Metal article (it contains interesting info lacking in the other). I think it would be misleading to have in an encyclopedia entry an article called Metal Music and another called Heavy Metal Music as if both terms were not synonyms. Loudenvier 18:27, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I do not agree, because 20 or 15 years ago the term Heavy Metal was a synonym of Metal, but now Heavy Metal is used to define that paricular genre of Metal Music played mainly in late seventeens, that is still played by some of that surviving bands (Toni Iommi, Blue Oyster Cult, Iron Maiden, etc) and by some revival bands. The definition Metal=Heavy Metal is outdated. Now Heavy Metal is by the most considered part of Metal, not Metal itself. --Olpus

 * I obviously agree, given my previous responses. "Metal" is to "heavy metal" what "rock" is to "rock n roll" WesleyDodds 18:09, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
 * You brought to light the best analogy possible: Metal IS to heavy metal what rock is to rock´n´roll :-) Loudenvier 01:29, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

 * so if "metal" is to "heavy metal" what "rock" is to "rock n roll", that would mean that the two are not synonymous (given rock and rock and roll are different)? --MilkMiruku 22:29, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Hehe! I did not thought Rock as anything but Rock´n´roll. Did not ever heard anyone stating they weren´t exactly the same thing. But in the case of Metal, there isn´t doubt: Metal = (Heavy) Metal. But quoting the Rock´n´roll article: " It later evolved into the various different sub-genres of what is now called simply 'rock'. As a result, "rock and roll" now has two distinct meanings: either traditional rock and roll in the 1950s style, or later rock and even pop music which may be very far from traditional rock and roll." one can still use the analogy to some extent, but excluding the fact that Heavy Metal has only one meaning and it is the same meaning as metal. Loudenvier 02:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I support the merge as well. Although "heavy metal" occasionally IS used to refer to a specific era of the music's development - Priest, Maiden, Sabbath, Zeppelin, et al. However, occurrence of this usage is notably rare, and it's not very well defined exactly which era this is, anyway, since Zeppelin and classic Sabbath were '70s bands, Maiden was an '80s band, and Priest were both. Cassandra Leo 22:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Heavy Metal today is most used to refer to that type of Metal music played in late '70 (that is still played now by some bands) than the other meaning. The words evolve, and now talking of Heavy Metal referring to Metal is outdated: all the contemporary Metal magazines, sites and books I read make that (subtle or not) difference. Also www.metal-archives.com (considered by a lot of metal fellowers 'the' source of metal bands) make this difference, see that with your eyes. --Olpus

Shouldn't the "History" section come before the extensive and problematic listing of subgenres? --Anonymous

 * Too make this clear in a nice simple fashion. Heavy Metal = Genre. Metal Music = Name given to mean all genres of Metal Music.

 * Simplest soloution. Merge the two. Leave a redirect from Heavy Metal Music, so that the lesser used term redirects to the modern, actual, commonly used term.

 * On a last note. Rock N Roll was the first Rock genre, which is how the styles got their name. Rock N Roll is a genre of rock music. Not all Rock music is Rock N Roll however, due to lacking key features of Rock N Roll. This same point applies to Heavy Metal and Metal genres.

 * Also see the Gothic Music article for a similar case. Leyasu 22:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree that Heavy Metal is a genre and Metal is the name given to mean all genres of Metal Music, because don't exist, at this time, a type of Metal music that is just 'Metal' without other adjectives. This article is intended to inform generally about Metal Music and its main features, so i think it should stay, with improvements. But I think that a merge is unnecessary, because the Heavy Metal page is the page where information about that type of Metal music (that started the genre) are disclosed. The Heavy Metal page need only a rework to be focused only on Heavy Metal subgenre, and the other informations about the other subgenres should be cutted and copied in this article. --Olpus

 * I agree per Olpus. Also, this page needs a complete rework anyway. So before that is done, who is going to rewrite nearly the whole thing, with descriptions of the genres that are actually correct, and bands of the genres that are actually correct. Leyasu 09:34, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The page is superfluous, as it not only describes the history of heavy metal which is already featured on the Heavy metal music page (but in less detail), but it also lists subgenres already listed elsewhere, with descriptive paragraphs that really serve no purpose when you can just visit the articles. If anything, Metal music should redirect to Heavy metal music. WesleyDodds 12:07, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The history on the heavy metal page, while more detailed, omits about 95% of the pertinent information, and the suggestion that it renders the relatively accurate and comprehensive history on this page entirely superfluous is mind-boggling. Additionally, the subgenre listings and characteristics serves to delineate and define the genre as a whole, and would be an invaluable resource to anyone looking for a quick summation, although it could certainly stand to be shortened somewhat. 67.4.146.16 09:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I whole heartedly disagree. Does Rock Music redirect to Rock N Roll? No. This page needs a complete and utter rewrite, describing what Metal is, describing in summary paragraphs that are accurate, each genre that is legitamate, and providing the link to that article.

 * History of Heavy Metal should remain on the Heavy Metal page. Heavy Metal is its own genre with its own history. Other metal genres have different historys. Some reletive to each other, some not. And not all are 'heavy' either. Symphonic Metal is hardly heavy most of the time, nor is Nu Metal.

 * This is the way it needs to go. Heavy Metal Music = Page on the genre of Heavy Metal, with a disambiguation to Metal Music. Metal Music, should list the history of Metal as a whole, summary paragraphs on what each genre is, and description of the core features that make metal bands, regardless of genre, metal. That, solves, the problem, and adheres to what the world actually does, and what things actually are. Leyasu 12:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The thing with rock music and rock 'n roll is that a distinction has long been made between the two in public discourse and music literature. I'm not sure the same can be said of heavy metal and metal music at this point.  Maybe if someone sources such usage an argument can be made (and they have to make a distinction; a source that says simply "metal" may be using it as a shorthand for "heavy metal" unless explicitly stated otherwise).  In addition, the heavy metal music page already  describes the music adequately, AND it's been a featured article.  I don't think we should dismantle it just so it can be fit into a viewpoint that may not be entirely accurate or helpful.  A more constructive approach would be to write a section about the debate between the naming conventions in the article.

 * Also, just because a genre has certain terms in it such as "heavy" doesn't mean that they should be used as literal definitions; naming music genres isn't like scientific classification. Hell, journalists come up with most genre names.  You seem to be operating under the assumption that there's a regularity to naming genres such as if a suffix like "rock" or "metal" are used they are automatically referencing a larger categorization.  It'd be nice if describing and categorizing music were nice and orderly, but it doesn't work that way in practice.  WesleyDodds 12:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

 * It works well depending on how much you know. Again, i stand by my assertion, and im sure most people do as well. Leyasu 15:43, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, virtually all serious fans of metal make the distinction nowadays. The confusion surrounding the genre classifications mostly comes from inexact terminology used by mainstream sources and metal publications that dumb it down for public consumption, as well as a few older metalheads who resist change.67.4.150.92 20:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge.
 * Leyasu is making an imprecise claim here: The majority of people voted to MERGE Metal into the HEAVY METAL article, not the other way around! I´ve collected lots of evidence supporting this. I think wikipedia should strive for a neutral point of view, trying to enforce the difference in the use of the term Metal and Heavy Metal is clearly non NPOV. The distinction between those terms has not been made clearly in music literature yet, and is a most recent thing, probably coming from young listeners who are more used to use Metal simply because the subgenres they like droped the Heavy part of the all encompasing term Heavy Metal, and to the fact that this kind of audience is hardly interested in history or in the background of the subgenres they like. The Metal page is superfluous, it should redirect to Heavy Metal. But since there is a little controversy on the subject, I did not made this yet. I am considering submiting the Metal page to the Articles for Deletion, where it would go through Wikipedia official policy for that matter and be given proper attention by the community. I would be happy with any outcome of this, being it the enformcement of Metal as the nu-term for Heavy Metal (see? nu-metal, nu-term, you do not like nu-metal, but you like to use a modernization of the term Heavy Metal I call nu-term - just kidding ;-) ), or vice-versa, I just do not want to stay with two articles stating the same things in duplicity, each claiming to be the general term for (heavy) metal music. Regards Loudenvier 12:54, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Merging and revision is taking place, to let the user Loudenvier no. How we are going about it is under conflict as me and WesleyDodds have very different views on how best to go about it, and are not very good at comprimising. He is a very proficient editor and i respect his views more than most, i just dont always agree with them, like now. As such, the question of 'how' to go about the merging is the issue. As such, ive found myself busy in life style. Still, the matter remains that it needs to be mentioned that the term most commonly used is Metal Music, and that a seperate article needs to be made for the Heavy Metal genre. If for instance you called one Heavy Metal Music and another Heavy Metal Genre, with a comment in the opening of one about how the genres in total are mostly known as Metal music, then that would probally work fine. Then we just have to figure out what to keep from the articles, what to rewrite, what needs adding, and then finally, put the pieces together like a jigsaw.

 * Of course, anyone with any other plans that do the same thing i a quicker, easier, and more efficient manner, would also be fine. Leyasu 14:54, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

 * There are good arguments for both points of view. In the end this is a matter of point of view. How could wikipedia NPOV policy be followed in this case? I now disagree with a merge! I think it would be better to try to show this litle controversy by allowing both articles to exist. Metal music must strive to show that it started as a synonym of Heavy Metal as an all encompasing genre (although some will point that not all metal music is heavy - I would say that not all Heavy Metal music from Sabath was heavy too!), and that today there is a growing tendency to use Metal instead of Heavy Metal. The Heavy Metal article could stay as it is but with a litle rewrite to show that it is starting to mean an strictier genre of the beginings of Metal, but that too many people still considers Heavy Metal the term identifying the style. Anyone disagrees with this approach? Loudenvier 05:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The plan is two have two seperate articles. The plan is to also take the parts of the Heavy Metal Music page that reference all genres and merge them into this page. Then the plan is to write up on Heavy Metal Music more information that form of metal (Which is still played) - and more on the metal music page about metal in general, and the time line of metal genres as a whole - and all that stuff.

 * This article wont be done just like that, it will take effort and patience from us all. Remember, Rome wasnt built in a day, because i couldnt be bothered to get up for work. Leyasu 09:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

List of revisions that still need to be made

 * The Heavy Metal category needs to be changed to a Metal music category, or a new, separate Metal music one created
 * The links need to be cleaned up extensively (consistent, not duplicated)
 * More pictures should to be added

 * Best to lay off the pictures until the article is written well.

 * The "Heavy Metal" section needs to be rewritten

 * Rewritten but not damaged. It should focus on the Heavy Metal bands and the general information about Metal should featured here. But first of that, this article need to exceed the quality of the Heavy Metal page. --Olpus 03:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The disclaimer for the "Metal Subgenres which are not accepted that widely" needs to be rewritten
 * Melo-death (In Flames) is a distinct sub-genre from melodic death (Intestinal Baalism), the latter being a sub-sub-genre of Death Metal, and several sections of the article need to be revised accordingly

 * The only difference is the nationality of the bands. It is also used as a neoglistic term between fans of certain bands.

 * No, there are substantive musical differences as well. Melodic death metal is clearly derived from and a part of death metal, whereas melodeath is basically Iron Maiden with harsh vocals.

 * So its basically Thrash Metal with Hardcore Vocals. Why does that ring a bell as something called Metalcore.

 * ??? Iron Maiden is not thrash and the vocals in melo-death aren't metalcore vocals.

67.4.150.92 21:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The funeral doom and stoner metal entries should be integrated into the doom metal section, a la brutal death and melo-death

 * This mostly needs a complete rewrite, and as such, i will do it right now. Leyasu 21:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

 * This discussion is not over, and no consensus has been reached. Wait until a consensus has been reached before doing something this drastic.  WesleyDodds 03:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The consensus was reached with me and this annomynous user, and your the only person who has opposed so far. Leyasu 09:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

 * You're ignoring the other voices in the previous section either supporting a merge or suggesting deletion. WesleyDodds 09:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

 * IM one of the 'voices' supporting a merge. And i also said this page needs to be revised before the merger can be done. It makes things a whole lot easier doing things 1-2-3 instead of 1-23873-3. Leyasu 10:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Note to Leyasu: Ley do you need any help on the rewrite? I have organised some of the stuff yesterday with the true metal, and subgenre metal page merge. Is there anything you would like me to help you on, as I do not want to make any futher changes, unless they are lost during your rewrite. I know I did not make a good job yesterday, as it was rushed, and I was quckly trying to do the merge during a lunch break (thiss cause the large amount of doubles e.g. power metal being written about twice). Though if there is any help you require please do not hesitate to ask NykylaiHellray 1:19PM 10 Jan 2006

 * Posted the revision. Copyediting from another user should now be done. Leyasu 15:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I want to help to improve this article too, i will try my best and i will gather the best information. I want make this article to reach the quality of the best articles on Wikipedia. --Olpus 03:18, 12 January 2006

Right, first step then Olpus, would be to find a defination on what makes a band metal, regardless of which form of it they are. Just post the description below. Leyasu 05:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)(UTC)

I think that each sub-genre needs to list a couple of bands that define the sub-genre. So that a reader can better understand the Sub-genres distinction from another.AidanPryde 03:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

That is why the genres have articles. Leyasu 06:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge or keep
Due to a lack of consensus in the Vote for Deletion on what exactly to do, the Metal Music page is being kept for now. However, the responses ranged from "Delete" to "Speedy Redirect" to "Merge" to "Rewrite" to "Keep", with "Redirect", "Merge", and "Keep" receiving the most votes. We pretty much all agree that the information contained in the article should be kept. But the issue is where it should be placed.

Personally I stand behind a merge, where the info is placed into the Heavy metal music page. As I have stated in the Vote for Deletion, the Heavy metal music page was created for and long served to fulfill the function that this page currently strives to achieve. The main bone of contention seems to the be the connotation of the phrase "Heavy metal". However, I feel that the standpoint of separating Heavy metal and metal is faulty, mainly because it involves revisionist history that retroactively declares "heavy metal" as a subgenre of a larger "metal" heading, when it fact, much like Punk rock, heavy metal was simply the default genre description that existed by itself until subgenres like Thrash metal, Power metal, and the like began to develop (additionally, while people saying "punk rock" might be referring to the initial late 70's wave, they can also use it to refer to the genre as a whole). Additonally, the term was long used (and is still used to describe metal as a whole) and "metal" is mainly used as an informal shortened version of "heavy metal". As it stands, the Heavy metal music page does not limit itself to a subgenre of metal, but describes the form as a whole, and to edit it to limit its focus would be in my mind wholly inappropriate. We are here on Wikipedia to describe topics as they are, not to create definitions.

 * The horse and carrige was created and long served as a means of transporation. After so long, it was outdated with automobiles and others forms of transportation. Around the world, people refer to Metal Music as metal. Again, hence terms Metalheads, Metal Bands, Metal Genres, Metal Databases. Otherwise it would be Heavy Metal Heads, Heavy Metal Bands, Heavy Metal Genres, Heavy metal Databases. Also, if all forms of metal where Heavy Metal, then Nu Metal, Symphonic Metal and Power Metal would be Light Metal, meaning you would be coining a term.

 * Similarly, is all Rock music Rock N Roll? Sure the term originated with the original genre, but the orginal genre is a form of Rock, not all rock is form of a Rock N Roll. If it was, again, we would of Gothic Rock N Roll, Punk Rock N Roll, Death Rock N Roll, Pop Rock N Roll, Psycadellic Rock N Roll, etc. See where this goes?

 * Yes, we are on here to descripe topics as they are. Which is in turn an oxymoron, when you make case not to edit an article to explain things as what they are. As they are, Heavy Metal used to mean all metal music. It stopped meaning that quite a while ago, when more new metal genres became pretty irrecongizable from Heavy Metal. Again, would you say Gothic Rock and Rock N Roll are the same? No, you wouldnt, youd say they are Rock Music. Its not taking way from the Heavy Metal article, to limit its focus. Its taking away from it, so its accurate. Heavy Metal means a genre, mostly meaning 80's band, but still having a few bands giving a go at reviving it and playing that style of metal such as Lullacry and Synergy. Also, if you remove whats in the Hevay Metal Music article into this one, that pertains to all genres, your doing the accurate thing, which as you said, Wikipedia is all about.

And really, if the whole creation of the Metal music page was on the based on the belief that "Heavy metal" now refers merely to a subgenre, then we could just changed the damn title of the page and saved a lot of grief.

 * And then what would happen to the article we would need on Heavy Metal as a genre? Youd essentially rename the article, then have to pull out all the genre parts, and rewrite again, all the stuff in this article. Its a bit more effot when you look at the big picture.

If we do a merge, I personally volunteer to write the temp page. However, this will require others to direct me to sources I can reference in regards to the various facets of the genre. This means books, magazines, articles, documentaries, websites, and the like. This is essential. As this subject is hotly debated, we need to reduce personal POV as much as possible, and the availability of reference material should help that. With reference material, we can cite someone else's POV as indicitive of a greater argument existing. As the Metal music page stands, it is not referenced, and I cannot be certain what can actually be established as fact and what is merely accepted as fact. With sources, if someone make an assertion based on a source that someone disagrees with, someone else can challenge that by looking up the same source and basing their counterargument on it.

 * Small problem that i usally face here is i deal in facts. Its also hard to cite the genral public and people there within. For the most part, it works something like this, bear with me explaining.

 * The metal community, rock community, and general music industry, regonise the metal community and metal bands, as, Metal, not Heavy Metal, due to the genres distinction from all its supposed subgenres.

 * The general public in most places that have no real inrest or knowledge in the genre or affiliated subjects, often say Heavy Metal for lack of better knowledge.

 * An example of that, in religions, places of worship in different relgions often have different names (Chapels, Syanogues, Churches, Temples, Etc), i dont know all of them, if any of them. So i use the term that i know best, and thats cathedral. Some religious people might take offence to that, but, i cannot use a term i dont know. This shows, the reason behind most people unassociated with the genre, using the term Heavy Metal, due to it being familiar to them.

Now, in the event both pages are kept to acknowledge separate topics, here's what I propose: The Heavy metal music page stays as it is, with the same focus and material, but the metal page acts as the list of all the genres and clarifies their relationships to one another. The History section would be removed, since it is already covered on the Heavy metal music page (as well as is properly cited). "Metal" would still exist as an umbrella term, but "heavy metal" would be the root of everything and contain the overall history.

 * Ok let me point this out. Humans come from Primates (Apes? Monkeys? Cimpanzee's?). Do we start calling all Humans by what species of Primate they came from? No, we dont.

 * The history section of Metal in general needs to cover all of Metals history, from its origins in Heavy Metal, to the present reign of Symphonic Metal and Metalcore bands. Metal is the form, (remember, this is coming from someone who studied musical genres for two years), and Heavy Metal is a genre, which is Metal, but is not the same as Symphonic Metal, which is not the same as Doom Metal. The adjectives in front of Metal reflect the way that form of Metal is. Hence, why its a Metal genre, not a Symphonic Heavy Metal/Gothic Heavy Metal/Nu Heavy Metal/Doom Heavy Metal/Etc etc.

 * My proposal isnt so far of Wesley's, and is by no means an attack against him, i think Wesley is a good editor by a long way, even if we do crash on our views of how to edit things. Proposal:

 * 1) Take from the Heavy Metal article, the highly brief, and undetalied history of Metal that is there, then expand it and detail it with what it lacks, including the reign of current time, and the forms of metal that rose and fall and how they influenced metal as a whole.

 * 2 )Leave in the Heavy Metal article, the refernces to it as a genre, and expand the article as needed to show that its a genre. As such its well written, so an editor with a good writing style would be excellent to expand the article and flesh it out with what it would be missing.

 * 3) Fill in a description of what makes all forms of Metal, Metal. This is the charecteristics that all Metal bands have, regardless of form. As shown, not all metal genres have the traits of Heavy Metal, yet they are Metal Genres. This needs to be shown, that Metal derived its name and origins from one genre, which that genre subsequently became one of.

But my overwhelming choice is a merge. Now let's see what everyone else has to say about this. WesleyDodds 03:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Now, i cant edit these articles all the time, i have priorities called life and other articles. That means, most of the editing will probally fall to the perfectly competent Wesley, who deserves a commendment for his dedication to Wikipedia. As Wesley said, people both sides of the argument, so now its for others to give their POV. Please though, to make it easier for Wesley, if you can provide sources and such and explantions as i have done, it will make the editing a lot easier for him, and/or whoever else works on the article. Leyasu 04:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern, and I can understand where you are coming from, but a lot of these tenets are based on faulty logic. First the comparison of music categorization with scientific categorization. When you name an organism, you name it under genus first and species second, ie. Homo sapien, and categorize it in a strict hierarchy very clearly divided into groups such as family, order, and so forth. There is a rigid approach to classifying organism in order so that everyone has a clear reference point. The same is not true for music. One example is the use of "core" at the end of a genre, ie. hardcore, metalcore, etc. I have heard from people (particularly my roommate, who's a metal radio DJ) that the suffix of "core" is to denote a punk influence. Well, that's actually not wholly true as sadcore does not subscribe at all to this naming convention, but it is a widely accepted genre label. Additionally, not all punk rock genres have the word "punk" in the name (Oi, New Wave), and not all heavy metal genres have the words "heavy" or even "metal" in the name. Naming of genres typically comes from either a music journalist or from the public who use terms regardless of their actual definition. As a English major in university I know the problems that can arise from denotation (dictionary definition) and connotation (the meaning attributed by other people) being confused. In many cases, there is no concern for using the name to evoke a clear understanding of the music form to a larger audience. Even the naming itself may not be consistent; the Gothic rock article is named Gothic rock mainly for convenience, when it's also refered to as goth, goth rock, gothic and so forth in the common vernacular and they all refer to the same thing (back when it first began in the late 1970's, NME actualy called it "postive punk") And in many instances, the music becomes detached from the label itself. But it's rather hard to change a name, and efforts to do so are quite difficult when the public has their own understanding.

So I wouldn't rely solely on naming for categorizing music genres. It certainly is helpful and can lead you generally in the right direction, but please be aware of these logical traps, because categorization of any art form (and language itself) is rather fluid.

Also, all rock music is rock 'n roll, since that is what all forms of rock music emerged from. It's faulty to call it a rock subgenre because really, there were no subgenres; it was a new form. The distinction of calling it rock music came in the 60's as greater experimentation, as well as people not wanting to say the phrase "rock 'n roll" in its entirety. A distinction between the two is mainly made (once again) out of convenience, for those who what to mainly talk about that period from the fifties. Otherwise, the terms are rather interchangeble, and rock 'n roll is still used, although nowhere near as common as say, 20 years ago.

On the subject of common beliefs in the metal community: these are perfectly fine if they somehow verified by a source. I can't add material someone in the metal scene has told me directly because that would count at original research, and even though it may be true, it would be hard for anyone else to verify it unless they talked to the same guy and did their own original research. The importance of sources like books, magazine articles, websites, and film is not just because there tends to be stricter guidelines for verifiying claims in the publication process (although this should never be automatically assumed; when was the last time you heard something inaccurate on the news?), but because of their mass availability, which gives a large number of people access to the same information. So if this common claim is held by the metal community, it really does help if this claim is presented in print or on camera. In addition, with a genre so big and popular as metal, it's faulty to rely on the dedicated metal fans for a final word on the subject. Most metal fans, as with all forms of popular music, are casual listeners who do not immerse themselves entirely in the scene. Those who are deeply involved and intensely knowledgable about the music, however, still can have their own biases. I know this especially from my studying of alternative and punk rock, where deep inner circles have a tendency to be reactionary and create their own values systems in regards to the scene. Sure, a lot of alternative bands from the 80's called what they were doing punk rock, but from an objective viewpoint, they were not.

Ultimately, what it all comes down to is sources. If someone has a sources that declares heavy metal solely as a subgenre of a larger group of metal music, then there's certainly a point. But the History minor in me asks further questions. Why does this person say that? What do they base their statement on? Does their conclusion have any logical fallacy? Is the person merely trying to express their view, or do they have an agenda? We must apply this thinking not only to the sources, but our own. That way we can effectively serve the topic at hand, and help make it understandable to a lot of people.

So sources, everyone!!! WesleyDodds 08:02, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Metal Archives, as authoritative a source as any, with tens of thousands of users at all levels of dedication, clearly makes that distinction. http://members.lycos.co.uk/hyperviolent/, based on a consensus of hundreds in the metal community, does as well. You can challenge their motives all you want to, but it's hard to imagine that someone would have a serious ulterior agenda to remove the "heavy" qualifier from the genre name.

 * And I question your assertion that most fans of metal are casual fans. Metal is underground enough that "casual fans" is essentially an oxymoron; to be called a "fan" one must ipso facto like more than the half a dozen metal bands readily available for public consumption, which requires immersing oneself to some degree in the metal community or the local scene.  People who have spent years intensively studying the myriads of metal bands are the authorities, not teenagers who heard about Metallica and Shadow's Fall on MTV2.

 * But by far the best rationale for keeping the article basically as is, is the ambiguity itself: heavy metal, to a significant number, if not a good majority, of interested parties, means Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath. "Metal" alone, on the other hand, is unequivocal.  It makes zero sense to confuse the issue unnecessarily, especially given that the current Heavy Metal article is (in terms of accuracy and comprehensiveness) a complete train wreck that dedicates more wordage to bands that fall wholly outside the genre than 99% of those that fall within. 67.4.146.16 09:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry i didnt answer this sooner Wesley, i was waiting on other comments. I second what the annomynous user said. Even though Metal-Archives genre organising does fall a few planets short of accuracy on 99.99% of what is listed on there. Leyasu 11:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merger with Heavy Metal music
I'm trying to summarize arguements. Please see Talk:Heavy metal music to voice your opinion in the "proposed merger with metal music" sub heading. Thanks maxcap 16:34, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Metal music


text:
Elk, Mendocino County, California

Elk (formerly Sadie Gravlee and Elk River) is an unincorporated community in Mendocino County, California.

Geography
It is located 22 mi south of Fort Bragg, at an elevation of 135 feet (41 m).

Elk has a population of 208. It is located on the coast at the crossroads of State Route 1 and Philo-Greenwood Road. Albion, Little River, and Mendocino lie to the north, and Manchester and Point Arena to the south. Inland are Navarro, Philo, and Boonville.

History
Elk was originally called "Greenwood," after the Greenwood brothers, early homesteaders and sons of mountain man Caleb Greenwood and his half-Crow wife, one of the rescuers of the Donner Party. When the post office was opened, in 1887, there was already another Greenwood in California so it was called Elk Post Office. Eventually the name came to refer to the town. It is an outgrowth of an earlier town called Cuffy's Cove and the cemetery is located at that townsite 1 mi north of Elk. When pioneer lumberman Lorenzo White was unable to reach a satisfactory deal with the owners of the lumber chutes at Cuffy's Cove to ship out his redwood product, he constructed a wharf out along a string of rocks in the center of what is now Elk. When he built a large steam sawmill and 3 ft gauge railroad, the new employment drained the town of Cuffy's Cove, which was eventually abandoned. The sawmill was producing 80000 board feet of lumber per day by 1890. The mill was sold to Goodyear Redwood Company in 1916. Elk River Company took over the sawmill when Goodyear went bankrupt in 1932. The local redwood lumber industry economy collapsed when the uninsured sawmill burned in 1936. A new sawmill was built in about 1953 and another followed in 1963. These operated until the late 1960s, when the redwood and Douglas fir was mostly logged out. After some quiet times, the town has had a rebirth as a recreation destination particularly as a result of the pandemic with people wanting to get out of the urban areas. A couple of the larger old houses are now bed and breakfast inns, and the state has acquired Greenwood State Beach and the original mill site as a state park. The ZIP Code is 95432. The community is inside area code 707.

Government
In the California State Legislature, Elk is in, and in.

In the United States House of Representatives, Elk is in.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Elk, Mendocino County, California


text:
Twin Ring Motegi

Mobility Resort Motegi (モビリティリゾートもてぎ) is a motorsport venue located in Motegi, Tochigi Prefecture, Japan. Originally Twin Ring Motegi (ツインリンクもてぎ), the venue's name came from the facility having two race tracks: a 2.493 km oval track and a 4.801 km road course. It was built in 1997 by Honda Motor Co., Ltd., as part of the company's effort to bring the Championship Auto Racing Teams series to Japan, helping to increase their knowledge of American open-wheel racing. The oval was last raced on in 2010 by the Indycar Series. On 1 March 2022, the name of the track was changed to Mobility Resort Motegi, coinciding with the 25th anniversary of the facility. The road course's most notable event is the Japanese motorcycle Grand Prix which is currently held every year. The track also currently hosts rounds in the domestic Super Formula Championship and Super GT series each year.

Speedway
The oval course is the only one of its kind in Japan used for competitive racing. It is a low-banked, 1.549 mi egg-shaped course, with turns three and four being much tighter than turns one and two. On March 28, 1998, CART held the inaugural Indy Japan 300 at Twin Ring Motegi Speedway. The race was won by Mexican driver Adrián Fernández. CART continued racing at Twin Ring Motegi Speedway from 1998–2002. In 2003, Honda entered the Indy Racing League and the race became a part of the IRL schedule. In addition to Indy car racing, the track has also hosted a single NASCAR exhibition race in 1998.

Honda, which had built the oval for the express purpose of developing its oval-racing program for Indy car racing, did not win a race at the track for its first six years of operation. In 2004, Dan Wheldon took the first win for Honda on the oval. In 2008, the Motegi oval gained additional publicity when Danica Patrick became the first woman to win an Indycar race, beating Hélio Castroneves for her first and only Indycar victory.

The 2011 season was the last season of IndyCar in Motegi. It had been dropped from the calendar as organizers looked to maximize viewing audiences. The road course, rather than the super speedway, was used for the 2011 race due to damage to the oval track resulting from the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake. The oval is not presently used for racing and even has been used as additional parking space during MotoGP events, but is still used for Honda's annual Thanks Day event showcasing various Honda road and racing vehicles, mainly from the nearby Honda Collection Hall, with Takuma Sato running a lap of the course in his 2017 Indianapolis 500 winning car seven years since the last IndyCar race in the oval.

Track length of paved oval
The track length is disputed by series that run at Twin Ring Motegi. The NASCAR timing and scoring use a length of 1.549 mi. This length was used by CART in their races between 1998 and 2002, too. The IRL measured in 2003 a length of 1.520 mi. This length was also used in the following races until 2010.

NASCAR history
Mike Skinner won the only NASCAR Cup Series exhibition race held at the track in 1998, the Coca-Cola 500. Skinner won driving the No.31 Chevrolet for Richard Childress Racing. The race was most noted for being the first oval track NASCAR race in Japan as well as being the first in which Dale Earnhardt and his son, Dale Earnhardt Jr., competed with one another, driving No.3 and No.1 Coca-Cola Chevrolets, respectively. The track also held the NASCAR K&N Pro Series West in 1999 with Kevin Richards getting the win.

Road course
The road course is 4.801 km long and is unique in sharing garage and grandstand facilities with the oval course, but being entirely separate otherwise. Although they are separate tracks, it is impossible for races to occur simultaneously on the two courses; to access the oval track, teams must cross the road course pit and front straight. The road course also runs in the opposite direction from the oval; clockwise, rather than counter-clockwise.

The course itself is built in a stop-start straight-hairpin style, which flows differently than many similarly-sized tracks. By Japanese standards the circuit is exceptionally flat, with only a slight elevation rise towards the hairpin turn. The road course is much busier than the oval track, with Super Formula visiting twice, Super GT and Super Taikyu cars once each, and local events almost every weekend. The road course can be used in three ways: the full course, or two "short courses" can be made, using connecting roadways. These short courses are usually used for junior formula events, such as Formula 4 and FJ1600.

The road course is also a popular motorcycle racing track, with the MotoGP usually visiting once a year, as well as several Japanese national bike racing series. It has hosted the Pacific motorcycle Grand Prix from 2000 to 2003 and the Japanese motorcycle Grand Prix since 2004.

Other facilities
In addition to the main racing complex, Mobility Resort Motegi features a second road course (called the "North Short Course") for karting and Formula 4 events, as well as a 0.250 mi dirt track for modified and sprint car racing and also standard saloon racing. In addition, the FIM Trials series visits the track every year for the world trials championship. Therefore, an outdoor trials course exists on the facility.

Outside of racing, Mobility Resort Motegi has the Honda Collection Hall, which features historic Honda racing and production cars and motorcycles, and Honda Fan Fun Lab, which features Honda's next generation technologies such as robotics, fuel-cell vehicles and aviation. Honda also operates a technology demonstration center on the site, as well as educational centers.

In 2009, a cafe opened which was named after the Gran Turismo video games.

Track difficulties
Mobility Resort Motegi is a separate-but-combined road-and-oval track (as opposed to the "roval" tracks common in the United States), and the decision to include a full road course contained largely within the oval necessitated design compromises. For spectators, sightlines can be extremely poor for road course races, as the grandstands are much further back than usual. The oval course blocks the view of much of the road course, including the best passing point on the track, and several large-screen televisions are needed. Seating outside the grandstand is limited to areas of the infield and along the 750 m backstraight of the road course.

Track access is a major concern, with only two entry and exit points by a two-lane public road. Motegi is not a particularly large town, and accommodation is virtually non-existent close to the track, except for the on-site hotel. Train links to the area are extremely limited (the major regional lines, JR East and Tobu Railway do not service the area), nor has a planned superhighway been completed. Thus the stated track capacity (about 65,000) is dictated largely by traffic flow, not by actual seating capacity (estimated to be nearly 100,000 for road-course events, 80,000 for the oval).

In 2011, Casey Stoner and Jorge Lorenzo proposed to boycott the MotoGP race out of fears for their health from radiation from the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant even though all the independent scientific experts including the World Health Organization and Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety Agency had stated that it is safe to live permanently 80 km or more from the plant. Motegi is more than 120 km from Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant. In the end, all the teams showed up for the race.

Lap records
As of June 2024, the fastest official race lap records at the Mobility Resort Motegi are listed as:

Events

 * Current

 * April: MFJ Superbikes,
 * June: Asia Road Racing Championship
 * August: Super Formula Championship, MFJ Superbikes, TCR Japan Touring Car Series, Formula Regional Japanese Championship
 * September: Super Taikyu
 * October: Grand Prix motorcycle racing Japanese motorcycle Grand Prix, Asia Talent Cup, TCR Japan Touring Car Series
 * November: Super GT, F4 Japanese Championship
 * December: Super Formula Lights, TCR Japan Touring Car Series

 * Former

 * Champ Car
 * Bridgestone Potenza 500 (1998–2002)
 * Coca-Cola 500 (1998)
 * Ferrari Challenge Asia-Pacific (2019)
 * Grand Prix motorcycle racing
 * Pacific motorcycle Grand Prix (2000–2003)
 * GT World Challenge Asia (2023)
 * IndyCar Series
 * Indy Japan 300 (2003–2011)
 * Japan Le Mans Challenge (2006–2007)
 * Japanese Formula 3 Championship (1997–2019)
 * Porsche Carrera Cup Japan (2004, 2006–2007, 2010–2012, 2020)
 * World Touring Car Championship
 * FIA WTCC Race of Japan (2015–2017)

In popular media
As a large recently constructed Japanese circuit, Mobility Resort Motegi has and continues to be utilised virtually in a large number of electronic video games, both in arcade machines and in PC and console games for home use.
 * In Honda's 2005 Clio Awards winning commercial "Impossible Dream", the sequence in which the BAR Formula One car is driven into the bridge was filmed at the circuit.
 * During the opening sequence of Kamen Rider Agito, the three main Kamen Riders are shown riding around the circuit, as Honda is the series sponsor.
 * During the ending sequence of Engine Sentai Go-onger, the series' characters are shown dancing on the main straight of the road course. The racetrack is revealed in the series as the primary Go-onger team's origin (it is known that Saki Rouyama, Go-on Yellow, works there), and was used (along with the Honda Collection Hall) in the final scene from "Road Of Justice", the final episode of the series.
 * In Super Hero Taisen GP: Kamen Rider 3, a race called the Rider Grand Prix will take place in a variation of the Twin Ring Motegi, owned by Shocker in the altered timeline.
 * The track is available in racing games such as Forza Motorsport 2, Forza Motorsport 3, Forza Motorsport 4, Gran Turismo 4, Gran Turismo (PSP), Gran Turismo 5, Gran Turismo 6, iRacing.com, and RaceRoom Racing Experience.
 * During the first tankery battle in Girls und Panzer Das Finale Part 1, Ooarai Girls Academy against BC Freedom High School, members of Leopon Team, the VK 4501 (P) reference the track, saying they wished they re-opened the oval layout.

Access
Bus routes
 * JR Bus Kanto
 * For Utsunomiya Station via Motegi Station
 * Ibaraki Kotsu
 * For Mito Station (Ibaraki)

title: Twin Ring Motegi


text:
User talk:Erogers

Welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for your contributions to the coolest online encyclopedia I know of =). I sure hope you stick around; we're always in need of more people to create new articles and improve the ones we already have.  You'll probably find it easiest to start with a tutorial of how the wikipedia works, and you can test stuff for yourself in the sandbox.  When you're contributing, you'll probably find the manual of style to be helpful, and you'll also want to remember a couple important guidelines.  First, write from a neutral point of view, second, be bold in editing pages, and third, use wikiquette.  Those are probably the most important ones, and you can take a look at some others at the policies and guidelines page. You might also be interested in how to write a great article and possibly adding some images to your articles.

Be sure to get involved in the community – you can contact me at my talk page if you have any questions, and you can check out the village pump, where lots of wikipedians hang out and discuss things. If you're looking for something to do, check out the community portal. And whenever you ask a question or post something on a talk page, be sure to sign your name by typing ~~~~.

Again, welcome! It's great to have you. Happy editing! --Spangineer (háblame)  18:17, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Erogers


text:
Marc R. Alexander

Marc R. Alexander (born April 13, 1958) is a Roman Catholic priest of the diocese of Honolulu. Prior to February 1, 2006, he served the diocese as diocesan theologian and pastor of a clustered parish known as the Manoa-Punahou Catholic Community.

He was born in Sagami, Japan. He was educated in Hawai‘i at Saint Anthony of Padua Elementary School in Kailua, and Damien Memorial High School in Honolulu. He completed his secondary education in 1976 at Mount Vernon High School in Alexandria, Virginia. He studied at Saint Meinrad College Seminary in southern Indiana, as well as the Catholic University of Louvain in Belgium. He also studied at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, earning a doctorate in sacred theology in 1993.

Priestly ministry
After completing his seminary studies in the American College of Louvain (Leuven), he was ordained to the presbyterate for the diocese of Honolulu at Saint John Vianney Church in Kailua on October 18, 1985, where he served as a parochial vicar. From 1987 until 1990 he served as an associate director for adult religious education/catechesis for the Diocese of Honolulu, with an office at Saint Stephen Diocesan Center. In 1989, he was appointed interim pastor for the topside parishes on the island of Molokai. He created one of the first clustered parishes by combining these communities into the Molokai Catholic Community, where he served until 1990.

After his doctoral studies in Rome, he returned to Hawaii in 1993 to be appointed diocesan theologian and director of the diocesan lay ministry training program called Servant Leadership. He became founding executive director of the Hawaii Catholic Conference, the public policy arm of the Roman Catholic Church in the State of Hawaii, from 1994 until 1999. In 1998, Bishop Francis DiLorenzo appointed him as pastor of Sacred Heart Church and Maryknoll School in Punahou. This also included the Korean Catholic Community. In 1999 he was subsequently also appointed as pastor of Saint Pius X Church in Manoa. The two parishes were clustered and have since been called the Manoa-Punahou Catholic Community.

Since his public policy days, Alexander has testified on legislation addressing homelessness, housing (including the rental housing trust fund), same-sex marriage, euthanasia/assisted suicide and domestic violence. As vicar general, he led initiatives in strategic planning (the first-ever plan for the diocese won the 2008 American Planning Association Hawaii Chapter's Donald Wolbrink Chapter Achievement award), the diocesan capital campaign (which raised gifts and pledges over $57 million on a $30 million goal), and restructuring the central administration of the diocese. Bishop Clarence Silva appointed Alexander to the office of vicar general for the Diocese of Honolulu effective February 1, 2006. Bishop Silva appointed Alexander as his moderator of the curia on May 5, 2006. Alexander has also served as vice-president and chief executive officer of The Augustine Educational Foundation.

Alexander resigned as the Homeless Coordinator for the Hawaii Governor's Office in January 2012 due to an affair with a woman while he was an ordained Catholic Priest.

Publications

 * “The Problems with Physician-Assisted Suicide,” Origins: CNS Documentary Service (April 7, 2005).
 * "Catholic Perspectives on Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide: The Human Person and the Quest for Meaning," Cultural Issues in End-of-Life Decision Making (Sage Publications, 2000)
 * "Church and Ministry in the Works of G.H. Tavard" (Leuven University Press, 1994)
 * "G.H. Tavard's Concept of Tradition," The Quadrilog: Essays in Honor of George H. Tavard (Liturgical Press, 1994)

title: Marc R. Alexander


text:
User talk:Tinasym

Welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for your contributions to the coolest online encyclopedia I know of =). I sure hope you stick around; we're always in need of more people to create new articles and improve the ones we already have.  You'll probably find it easiest to start with a tutorial of how the wikipedia works, and you can test stuff for yourself in the sandbox.  When you're contributing, you'll probably find the manual of style to be helpful, and you'll also want to remember a couple important guidelines.  First, write from a neutral point of view, second, be bold in editing pages, and third, use wikiquette.  Those are probably the most important ones, and you can take a look at some others at the policies and guidelines page. You might also be interested in how to write a great article and possibly adding some images to your articles.

Be sure to get involved in the community – you can contact me at my talk page if you have any questions, and you can check out the village pump, where lots of wikipedians hang out and discuss things. If you're looking for something to do, check out the community portal. And whenever you ask a question or post something on a talk page, be sure to sign your name by typing ~~~~.

Again, welcome! It's great to have you. Happy editing! --Spangineer (háblame)  18:17, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Tinasym


text:
Pacific Tri-Nations

The Pacific Tri-Nations was the traditional rugby union series between Tonga, Fiji and Samoa. It was established in 1982 with the Samoan team, then known as Western Samoa, winning the tournament. In 2006 it was replaced by the IRB Pacific 5 Nations which was then renamed the Pacific Nations Cup.

Between 1993 and 1995 the winner of the previous year's tournament played in the Super 10 competition alongside sides from Australia, New Zealand and South Africa.

In 2000, for the first time, they played a home and away Pacific tri-nations series, which instantly established itself as the number three series in the world after the Six Nations and the Tri-nations series.

In 2005, the tournament (won by Samoa) was also used to determine qualification for the Rugby World Cup 2007 (to be held in France). The top two teams (Samoa and Fiji) qualify automatically, while Tonga had to win a two-legged match, against the top team out of six small teams in Oceania (Vanuatu, Cook Islands, Solomon Islands, Tahiti, Niue and Papua New Guinea), before heading to the Repechage Round to face a nation from Asia for a spot in RWC 2007.

The first Women's Pacific Tri-Nations was held in 2006, and was won by Samoa.

Past winners

 * 1982 –
 * 1983 –
 * 1984 –
 * 1985 –
 * 1986 –
 * 1987 –
 * 1988 –
 * 1989 –
 * 1990 –
 * 1991 –
 * 1992 –
 * 1993 –
 * 1994 –
 * 1995 –
 * 1996 –
 * 1997 –
 * 1998 –
 * 1999 –
 * 2000 –
 * 2001 –
 * 2002 –
 * 2003 – No tournament due to the 2003 Rugby World Cup
 * 2004 –
 * 2005 –

Women's Pacific Tri-Nations
 * 2006 Samoa

title: Pacific Tri-Nations


text:
User talk:Is is Is

Welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for your contributions to the coolest online encyclopedia I know of =). I sure hope you stick around; we're always in need of more people to create new articles and improve the ones we already have.  You'll probably find it easiest to start with a tutorial of how the wikipedia works, and you can test stuff for yourself in the sandbox.  When you're contributing, you'll probably find the manual of style to be helpful, and you'll also want to remember a couple important guidelines.  First, write from a neutral point of view, second, be bold in editing pages, and third, use wikiquette.  Those are probably the most important ones, and you can take a look at some others at the policies and guidelines page. You might also be interested in how to write a great article and possibly adding some images to your articles.

Be sure to get involved in the community – you can contact me at my talk page if you have any questions, and you can check out the village pump, where lots of wikipedians hang out and discuss things. If you're looking for something to do, check out the community portal. And whenever you ask a question or post something on a talk page, be sure to sign your name by typing ~~~~.

Again, welcome! It's great to have you. Happy editing! --Spangineer (háblame)  18:17, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

User categorisation
You were listed on the Wikipedians by D&D alignment page as being associated with the Lawful Good alignment. As part of the User categorisation project, these lists are being replaced with user categories. If you would like to add yourself to the category that is replacing the page, please visit Category:Wikipedians by D&D Alignment for instructions. --Cooksey 15:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:04, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Is is Is


text:
User talk:Shawnlipowski

Welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for your contributions to the coolest online encyclopedia I know of =). I sure hope you stick around; we're always in need of more people to create new articles and improve the ones we already have.  You'll probably find it easiest to start with a tutorial of how the wikipedia works, and you can test stuff for yourself in the sandbox.  When you're contributing, you'll probably find the manual of style to be helpful, and you'll also want to remember a couple important guidelines.  First, write from a neutral point of view, second, be bold in editing pages, and third, use wikiquette.  Those are probably the most important ones, and you can take a look at some others at the policies and guidelines page. You might also be interested in how to write a great article and possibly adding some images to your articles.

Be sure to get involved in the community – you can contact me at my talk page if you have any questions, and you can check out the village pump, where lots of wikipedians hang out and discuss things. If you're looking for something to do, check out the community portal. And whenever you ask a question or post something on a talk page, be sure to sign your name by typing ~~~~.

Again, welcome! It's great to have you. Happy editing! --Spangineer (háblame)  18:17, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

Untagged image
An image you uploaded, Image:Art the bee seal.gif, was tagged with the coatofarms copyright tag. This tag was deleted because it does not actually specify the copyright status of the image. The image may need a more accurate copyright tag, or it may need to be deleted. If the image portrays a seal or emblem, it should be tagged as seal. If you have any questions, ask them at Media copyright questions. -- 18:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SCAD shield light gr.gif
Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:SCAD shield light gr.gif. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

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title: User talk:Shawnlipowski


text:
Crossroads, Kansas City

The Crossroads (officially the Crossroads Arts District) is a neighborhood within Greater Downtown with a population of 7,491. It is centered at approximately 19th Street and Baltimore Avenue, directly south of the Downtown Loop and north of Crown Center. It is the city's main art gallery district and center for the visual arts. Dozens of galleries are located in its renovated warehouses and industrial buildings. It is also home to numerous restaurants, housewares shops, architects, designers, an advertising agency, and other visual artists. The district also has several live music venue.

The district has become known for being home to many craft breweries. An area of the Crossroads is known as "Brewer's Alley" because of the high concentration of breweries all within walking distance.

Numerous buildings in the neighborhood are listed on the National Register of Historic Places, including the TWA Corporate Headquarters Building, Western Auto Building, and Firestone Building. There are two historic groups of buildings also on the Register—Work Class Hotels at 19th & Main Streets (Midwest Hotel, Monroe Hotel, and Rieger Hotel) and Crossroads Historic Freight District (industrial buildings clustered along the tracks north of Union Station).

The Crossroads district is also home to one of the county's largest remaining examples of a Film Row district. The Film Row district consists of 17 buildings. Following the demolition of a Film Row building, the Film Row district was placed on Missouri Preservation's 2013 list of "watched properties".

The Kansas City Star and The Pitch maintain offices in the neighborhood, along with HOK and Barkley. The Belger Arts Center is also located in the district.

First Fridays
A main feature of First Fridays is the art galleries, which open their doors to the public for this monthly event. Visitors will find a wide variety of art, from traditional paintings and sculptures to avant-garde installations. Visitors will also have the opportunity to meet some of the artists behind the work – and observe live paintings.

Crossroads Music Festival
First held in late August 2005, the Crossroads Music Festival is an annual event organized by Spice of Life Productions, which features local music artists. The 2005 event was held at Grinder's Sculpture Park (Crossroads KC) at 18th Street and Locust Street. In addition to concert performances, offerings include short films by local independent filmmakers and booths offering apparel by local designers, local independent print media, and carnival games.

Tax abatements
In 2007, one of Kansas City's development agencies began a program to allow property tax abatements for art-related business who would otherwise be priced out of the neighborhood by fast-rising property values. Neighborhood leaders lobbied for the program to prevent the "Soho Effect" of gentrification. Tax abatements had been granted to developers to attract new residents to the neighborhood with high-end condominiums and lofts next to the galleries.

New Kansas City Royals stadium
On February 13, 2024, the Kansas City Royals announced their intentions to build a baseball stadium located in the Crossroads, and plan on opening the stadium by 2028.

title: Crossroads, Kansas City


text:
National Veterinary Institute (Sweden)

The Swedish Veterinary Agency (Statens veterinärmedicinska anstalt, SVA) is a Swedish government agency that answers to the Ministry of Rural Affairs and Infrastructure. The agency was established in 1911 and is located in Uppsala.

The agency is an expert organisation for veterinary medicine, aiming to promote animal health by preventing, diagnosing and controlling infectious diseases in animals. It is specialised in virology, bacteriology, antibiotic resistance, parasitology, chemistry, food safety, vaccinology and pathology. It provides advice and conducts commissioned investigations and programmes for controlling contagious diseases. One of the main commissions is zoonotic infections.

title: National Veterinary Institute (Sweden)


text:
Chopper Dave

Chopper Dave may refer to:
 * a minor character in the animated TV series Sealab 2021
 * a minor character in the TV series Frasier

title: Chopper Dave


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pet of the Month

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was is REDIRECT, there's no concencus on the locations, so I'm redirecting to the List of Penthouse Pets. - Mgm|(talk) 11:12, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Pet of the Month
Delete. This is a magazine poll. Time Magazine's Man of the Year poll is noteworthy; this is not.WAvegetarian 18:22, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete drini ☎ 18:21, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not a "magazine poll," it's simply the Penthouse featured model of the month—the parallel of the Playboy Playmate. It should just be redirected to List of Penthouse Pets, or to Penthouse magazine.  Postdlf 18:40, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Penthouse magazine --Xcali 19:06, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect in agreement with Postdlf. "Pet of the Year" involves a reader poll, but "Pet of the Month" is simply an editor's selection each issue.  No noteworthiness outside of the magazine's own niche notability.  Barno 20:11, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Move to Penthouse Pet - we have an article on Playboy Playmates. -- BD2412 talk 01:59, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
 * Rename to Penthouse Pet and/or merge to list of Penthouse Pets. -Sean Curtin 07:27, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Penthouse magazine. carmeld1 16:05, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


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Géza Gárdonyi

Géza Gárdonyi, born Géza Ziegler (3 August 1863 – 30 October 1922) was a Hungarian writer and journalist. Although he wrote a range of works, he had his greatest success as a historical novelist, particularly with Eclipse of the Crescent Moon and Slave of the Huns.

Life
Gárdonyi was born in Agárdpuszta, Kingdom of Hungary, the son of a machinist on the estate of an aristocrat in Western Hungary. He graduated from at a college for teachers and worked for some years as a teacher and Catholic cantor. He married Mária Molnár in 1885, but their marriage was unhappy, and they separated in 1892.

Gárdonyi's career as a writer started off when he began writing for magazines and newspapers in the mid-1880s. His first successes were the satirical "Göre Gábor" letters on rural life, works which he later repudiated. Around the turn of the century, he started to tackle historical themes in writing, which resulted in a series of fine novels.

He moved to Eger (today's northern Hungary) in 1897 with his mother and lived there until his death. He is also buried there, with his tomb bearing the inscription Csak a teste ("Only his body"). The house where he lived and did most of his writing is now preserved as a museum.

The Stars of Eger or Eclipse of the Crescent Moon
Gárdonyi's most famous novel Egri csillagok was published in 1899. The title translates literally as Stars of Eger, but it has been published in English as Eclipse of the Crescent Moon and as The Stars of Eger (by T. László Palotás, 2022, ISBN 979-8829947033). It is set around a famous siege of the town of Eger in Hungary by the Ottomans in the year 1552. In 2005 this book was voted "the most popular novel of Hungary" by viewers of the television programme Big Read (A Nagy Könyv).

Slave of the Huns
In the opinion of some people, his best work was A láthatatlan ember, published in 1901. The title translates literally as The Invisible Man, but it was published in English as Slave of the Huns and as Hidden among the Huns (by T. László Palotás, 2022, ISBN 979-8829978860). It is set around the time of Attila the Hun.

Although these two novels are very well known in Hungary, translations into English and other European languages only became widely published in the late 20th century.

Works

 * Egri csillagok (Stars of Eger / Eclipse of the Crescent Moon)
 * A láthatatlan ember (The Invisible Man / Slave of the Huns / Hidden among the Huns)
 * Isten rabjai (Captives of God)
 * A lámpás (The Lamp)
 * A bor (The Wine)
 * Ida regénye (Ida's Novel, adapted to the film Romance of Ida)
 * Hosszúhajú veszedelem (The Menace with Long Hair)
 * Az én falum (My Village)
 * Az égre néző lélek (Spirit, Looking at the Sky)
 * Állatmesék (Animal Tales)

title: Géza Gárdonyi


text:
Talk:Maburaho

Something to consider removing
I believe that the elements in the plot which spoil the actual events in the story should be removed. Someone removed an addition I made which spoiled nothing in the story but described an important feature which I found to be the very reason I started watching this show. I strongly believe that if you want to trim the article, you should trim things which spoil the story arcs and instead describe what kind of a story the user can expect to be told. This would make for a shorter article which doesnt have spoilers in it. 24.84.108.255 (talk) 06:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

More to add
I think there is more to add to this page, there are a few more characters not mentioned, the character descriptions can be exapaned, the VA's and seiyu can be added and I really think we need to add some to the summary to give it a more proper ending, right now it is a more a general summary then a plot summary, so I would hope to have help expanding that plot summary, can someone help me?

I've made some fairly large changes to the plot section. I've mainly just been correcting some mistakes and clarifying a few points. However, I did also take out the two references to Kazuki's death/Yuuna's illness. I know we're using the spoiler tag, but don't you feel that's a bit too much spoiler? It would rather ruin the anime for anyone who hadn't seen it already. Story Weaver 20:01, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe that there is an overlook in the main summary of Maburaho. Maburaho first started as a light novel and the original artworks for the novel belong to Komatsu E-ji(not mention). (LINK REMOVED, LINK REMOVED) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chainzkai (talk • contribs)

 * I haven't been able to independently conferm this. But ANN does have Eeji Komatsu listed as the Character Conceptual Designer for the anime series and Miki Miyashita is the original illistrator. I'm also not very trusting of information found in AnimeNfo without double-checking. --TheFarix (Talk) 20:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The information is a confrim, it is listed in Maburaho Offical website (Japanese) (http://www.maburaho.com/anime/staff.html)

原作： 	築地俊彦／原作イラスト：駒都え～じ

Original Works(Author): Toshihiko Tsukiji/ Original Illustrator: Komatsu E-ji

Maburaho originates from light novel, with Toshihiko Tsukiji as the author and Eeji Komatsu (Komatsu E-ji) as the Character Conceptual Designer.

Miki Miyashita is the illustrator for the manga version.

Both the anime and manga are spinoff from the novel using Eeji Komatsu's (Komatsu E-ji) designs for the characters.

--Chainzkai 03:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I will be adding more info regarding the novel(to the best of my knowledge) and there maybe a lot of addition info(eg. new characters that appears within the novel only, storyline setting differences...) There maybe a need to add in a sub category for the light novel and for the manga.

--Chainzkai 04:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Do anybody have any idea when the manga ended in Gekkan Dragon Age? I cant find the actual date and Im tempted to put in the publication dates for the mangas in Japan, instead of the running and ending date in Gekkan Dragon Age.

To my suprise there is another manga version of Maburaho Japanese Online Bookstore by the name of Maburaho Colorful Comic. Anyone have any info regarding this??

There is also a Maburaho Guide Book by the name of 超解（スーパーガイド）！まぶらほ ドラゴンマガジンコレクションＳＰ (Super Guide! Maburaho Dragon Magazine Collection Special), can anyone that had read this before give a more accurate update on Maburaho (I believe this Offical Guide Book will have most of resources needed to prefect this Maburaho page).

I wish to add in the info regrading the novel but there are a few titles that Im unable to translate (Sorry my Japanese language is only at beginner level), need help in translating the titles. Some titles I will leave a blank space for the English translation.

--Chainzkai 15:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I’m having translation problem with Volume 7 of the novel. Anybody knows what does the A-ji translate to (Japanese Web Dictionary couldn’t find a matching word)??

Please help me to edit the translated titles to Standard English as some seem really weird to me after translation.

I know that the differences between "The Volume of (Being a) Spirit" having part 1(top), part 2(middle) and part 3(bottom); and "The Volume of Revival" having part 1(east), part 2(south east), part 3(south) are really odd and confusing to non Japanese speakers, but this part of the language culture that cannot be translated. If there is needs to avoid confusion feel free to delete the (text).

--Chainzkai 18:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The link to the online bookstore wasn't there for an advertising purpose but as a reference. The Japanese online bookstore was the only source I found to show all the volumes of the Maburaho Novels together with the publication date. Sorry to have caused a misunderstanding. I had removed the link to the online bookstore.

I'm the user for 17:20, 11 July 2006 192.169.41.42 and 17:31, 11 July 2006 203.120.68.69 (Forgot to log in when posting) --Chainzkai 20:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Fourth Girl
There's a fourth girl that loves Shikimori, but I can't remember her name right now... she's got short brown hair, and has that "cute" look. She should be added to the character summary bit. Disavian 00:27, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Her name is Chihaya Yamase. --Anon

Working space for reviews
Various links to review sites to help constructed a "review" section:

--TheFarix (Talk) 12:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Meta Anime Review Project (MARP)
 * Kei's Anime Reviews
 * Anime on DVD reviews (not linked MARP):
 * Being a Brief Discussion of Anime Dubs: Maburaho, Volume One
 * Being a Brief Discussion of Anime Dubs: Maburaho, Volume Two

Which Class 2-B characters to list
I'm a bit perplexed as to which Class 2-B characters to include descriptions for, if any. I can only think of one character that is worth mentioning, Nakamaru, but it would be unfair to just list him. One approach would be to have the whole class, including Nakamaru, listed as a "character" since they pretty much act that way. --TheFarix (Talk) 02:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I think, in the end, it is better to describe them as a whole class. With only a couple of exceptions, the entire class acts in unison through the entire series. Nakamaru, Morisaki and Matsuda are about the only ones that act semi-independently of the others. --TheFarix (Talk) 13:03, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Character images
That should be it for character images. I don't think Ms Iba nor any of the members of Class 2-B are significant enough to have images on the article. --TheFarix (Talk) 18:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I will include images for the novel characters when I get my scanner working. --Chainzkai 05:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Plot
Instead of expanding the plot section to include the entire series maybe we could just add short summaries to each episode title? --Squilibob 03:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

 * That's one possibility. Another would be to completely merge the existing plot section into the lead, since all it does now is establish the premise of the series but provides no actual plot details. In fact, I think it is merely restating the premise that is already included in the lead. --TheFarix (Talk) 03:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes that's true. The fact that Kazuki only has an initial spellcount of eight does not need to be mentioned three times - as it is now in that plot section as well as the lead and the Kazuki Shikimori character description. --Squilibob 06:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've removed the plot section since all it was doing was restating the what was already in the lead. That should cut out that redundancy in information. --TheFarix (Talk) 02:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Infobox image
I really think we need a better image in the infobox. The current one, the cover of the first English DVD, does not represent the series very well. --TheFarix (Talk) 22:43, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * How about this: image ? --Squilibob 00:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's better then the current image. I do hope that you have the source information for it.
 * No I don't unless 4chan is a valid source ;) I'll try and find a better one. --Squilibob 01:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The image is from the first Maburaho novel No Girl No Cry. Illustrated by Eiji Komatsu.--Chainzkai 05:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Here are some other possibilities: All of these are wallpaper images released by ADV Film. But which fair use tag could be a problem --TheFarix (Talk) 21:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 *
 *
 *
 *
 * The third one is the best one for an infobox image in my opinion. --Squilibob 22:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Missing characters
I just took a quick look at the Japanese version of this page. I'm glad to note that overall, we have a much better article because we've give informaiton about the series origin and critical reception, which is completely missing from the Japanese article.

However, I noticed three characters on the Japanese article that do not appear on the English. In all fairness, they probably should be translated over and inclued into their own subsection under Characters. --TheFarix (Talk) 15:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

 * 宮間健太郎　（みやま けんたろう）
 * 夕菜の父. 職業は考古学者なのだが、出土品の横流しや地元警察の襲撃といった、かなり如何わしいこともしている. 妻・由香里とはトルコで知り合い互いに一目惚れして結婚したのだが、本人曰く「結婚させられた」らしい. かなりの恐妻家.

 * 宮間由香里　（みやま ゆかり）
 * 夕菜の母. イタリアでブローカーをしている. 見た目はおしとやかで和服の似合う日本的美人だが、夕菜に負けず劣らずの嫉妬深さとしつこさの持ち主. 逃げ回る健太郎を世界中追い掛け回し、最終的にはキリマンジャロの山頂に追い詰めて結婚を承諾させた. この性格は宮間家の血筋らしく、本人の考えでは「愛とは、社会性とは相容れない. もっと純粋で暴力的なもの」らしい.

 * リーラ・シャルンホルスト
 * 『まぶらほ～メイドの巻～』に登場するメイド. メイドの愛好団体MMM（もっともっとメイドさん）の第五装甲猟兵侍女中隊の大尉（ハウスキーパーと読む）. ドイツ人. 常に冷静沈着で家事全般は勿論、介護から戦闘機の操縦まで何でもこなすスーパーメイドだが、和樹のことになると冷静さを欠くことがある. 和樹に次期主人になってもらう為、かなり積極的に近づく. 和樹のことが好きで、夕菜のことを忘れさせようと思っている.

The characters quoted above belongs to the novel characters. I will be adding more of the novel characters summary soon.

These are what I had translated out, need some help in English editing before posting to main article.

宮間健太郎　（みやま けんたろう Miyama Kentaro） Miyama Yuna's father. An archeologist. However the artifacts he uncovered had been sold in the black market and he had been under the raid by the local police force. What is he really doing is still dubious. He meet his wife, Yukari in Turkey, they had been taken by each other at first sight and got married, but according to himself, it seemed more like he had been forced in marriage. He is quite a hen-pecked husband. Made his debut in The Volume of Revival - Part 2 (South East).

宮間由香里　（みやま ゆかり Miyama Yukari) Miyama Yuna's mother. She is working as a broker in Italy. The first impression she gave out to Kazuka was that she is a beautiful traditional Japanese woman, but in actual fact she was the one who had taught Yuuna that it is bad to lose, which had lead to Yuuna's eazy to jealousy character. She had chased Kentarou all over the world and finally cornered him at a summit in Kilimanjaro making Kentarou into agreement of marriage. She had inherited her character from her (Miyama) family. Quoting from her: "Love is something that is conflicting to the sociality, love categorize under something that is more violent in nature". Made her debut in The Volume of Revival - Part 7 (North)

リーラ・シャルンホルスト (Li-ra Sharunhorusuto) (Liera ????Need some logical translation name) Debut in Maburaho The Volume of Maid. She is the Captain from the Maid Organization, MMM(Motto Motto Maid san)(More and More Maid) fifth armored company (commonly known as Housekeeper). German. She is very calm and cool and a wonder in housework. From nursing to piloting of an fighter aircraft, she is a super maid that can do anything, but when things come to associate with Kazuki, she will lose her norm. Kazuki had been appointed to be her next master and because of that she had been trying her best. Because of her love for Kazuki, she tends to easily forget about the existence of Yuuna.

--Chainzkai 19:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Excite's translator is giving "Rera Scharnhorst", though it may be "Liera Scharnhorst" which is a German name. --TheFarix (Talk) 20:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Her name is Liera, I just went to check the book in one of the sentence she introduce herself as 'housekeeper,Liera'.

山瀬神代 （やませ かみよ　Yamase Kamiyo）

Yamase Chihaya's younger sister. Yamase Kamiyo's magic and grade are above average but did not make it to Aoi Academy. Her ex-classmates states that she is cute enough to easily get herself a boyfriend. Made her debut in The Volume of Revival - Part 3 (South), Extra side story - Sister Sister. Yamase Kamiyo had always adore and idolize her elder sister Yamase Chihaya. Yamase saw Chihaya in a very depressed mood and decided to find out and fix the problem (Kazuki) for her sister.

--Chainzkai 20:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Cleaned up and included. Or at least the parts I could understand.

Suggestions on the Characters
I feel that the characters section is getting a bit messy. I will suggest moving the charcters into another page to cut the article size and rearranging the characters in alphabetical orders.

Ms Iba and some members in Class 2-B have more storyline in the novel than in the anime, so will it be better if I expand out class 2-B, give something like a main supporting class member. --Chainzkai 05:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

New Pic
I posted a new picture representing the Anime characters better than the previous one. But, if it does not suit the articles needs then the change may be reverted.

Smile Lee 07:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that's pretty good. --Squilibob 12:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Plot and character section
I'm thinking of reediting the character section by moving most of the plot details into a plot section. I'm also going to reconsider most of the character images used in the article. I can only justify two images for critical commentary, Yuna and Maiho. The remaining images, while identifying the characters, are not actually being commented on by the article. --Farix (Talk) 12:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Done. I've written a basic plot synopsis and removed most of the plot details from the character section. More work should be done to the character section to slim them down. I also think the plot synopsis should be watched in order to avoid excessive detail. Even though it covers all of the major plot points, it leaves many details out and some editors will attempt to add them in. --Farix (Talk) 15:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

why
why did u guysome to a conclusing that this anime would be over why? i wana see more of there its cool and romantic —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chadss (talk • contribs) 07:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

wait
under the supporting characters, for Maiho, I don't think she appeared (or at least, introduced) in the manga--which I've recently read. maybe you guys mean the light novels? Shiya387 (talk) 05:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Shiya

 * I'll have to recheck to see what the source, Newtype USA to see to which the article credited Maiho's first appearance in. --Farix (Talk) 14:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

 * That appears to be correct, the article did state that she was introduced in the original novel. --Farix (Talk) 15:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Image update
I have updated all images to include fair use rationals. I even replaced the individual character shots of the four main characters with one that includes all of them. I can probably consolidate some of the other character shots as well if I go hunting through my DVDs. --Farix (Talk) 15:16, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Maburaho