text:
Talk:Johan Santana

Wrong Info
Under the 2010 season it says "Reports have Santana not being able to return to the team until the second half of the 2011 season after having rotator cuff surgery." We now know, of course, that he did not return until the 2012 season (as reflected in the next section). Can someone with permission change this? Clsjon (talk) 15:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

it says santana has the most expensive contract for a pitcher; it was changed when cc sabathia won a contract with the yankees. please somebody correct it. Jonathansuh (talk) 21:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

change
changed meters per second to kph. iirc kph is preferred to mps in baseball outside the U.S. Drunkasian 2005-05-29 16:58 (EST)

 * That may be, but kph is not an acceptable symbol. Gene Nygaard 02:55, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

 * What about km/h? Jonathansuh (talk) 21:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

New Photo?
Since the only photo that the powers that be will let be put up is one by one's own camra we need someone who is going to Mets Spring traing to take their own new Picture of Johan Santana witch can be posted.DLA75 (talk) 16:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The powers that be are doing the right thing by deleting images that don't belong to Wikipedia, so please relax about the Santana photo. There will be a FREE (as in not stolen) one of him on WP soon enough - maybe taken by me if I can make it to Port St. Lucie  Googie man (talk) 04:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Infobox
If no one objects, I will replace the current infobox with Template:Mlbplayer. You can see an example of this template in use at Torii Hunter. There are plans to use it for every current MLB player as a part of WikiProject Baseball players. If you have any suggestions for the template or just want to help out with the project, leave a message on the project's talk page. android 79  01:50, July 28, 2005 (UTC)
 * Since I haven't heard any objections, I will go ahead and make this change. android  79  02:22, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Horrible biography... I don't see how you can say most of his career he was a long-reliever, when he's only been in the majors about five years and half that time he has been one of the most dominant starters in all of baseball (not to mention that he will NEVER go back to the bullpen). He was always meant to be a starter, it was just a matter of time before this happened (the Twins are notorious for developing young starting pitcher prospects by using them in the bullpen first, the most recent example being Francisco Liriano). Plus his change-up is actually a circle-change, and there should be some mention of how it is the best change-up in baseball. Cy-young winner! No mention of this in the biography? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.123.220.150 (talk • contribs) 8 June 2006

Change his picture since hes a met change it 2 a mets one. theyre are plenty of them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.113.33.185 (talk) 02:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Stats
I added a majority of Santana's 2006 data to the chart near the bottom of the page, however I couldn't find his BF (Batters Faced) so if anyone could grab that that would be great. I also didn't have time to update his career totals, so if anyone has the time to do that that would be awesome.

The career ERA stat in the info box at the top didn't match the ERA in the Career Statistics toward the bottom, I changed it to 3.22 which i believe is right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwold (talk • contribs) 18:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Update stats
Up by his pic and stuff I edited the stats to 78 - 31.

Kblavie 23:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)Kblavie

Vandalism
Yeah... stop changing Santana's current team. He is still a Twin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.99.137.186 (talk) 02:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

actually.. he is a met. he was a met before to. he was just not under contract due to a no-trade clause —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coreyr107000 (talk • contribs) 01:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Mets
Yes - there is a trade that has been agreed upon between the Twins and the Mets. However - this trade is not official until the Mets and Santana agree on a contract extension. Until then - he is still a Twin. Please stop changing his infobox to the Mets. Contract negotiations are never a given. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 22:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Its OFFICIAL, he's met, pending physical. According to associated press his contract $150.75 million dollars for 7 years. Rhcp1016 (talk) 01:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Pending physical.... hence its NOT official...........  JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 01:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Ok pending physical...due to that small technicality. However, that information should be shown. Rhcp1016 (talk) 01:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * It's made perfectly clear in the text... Until then - he is still officially a member of the Minnesota Twins.JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 01:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * ok but in the text it also says details about his contract if he passes the physical. The contract is for 7 years $150.75 million, that is if he passes the physical, i understand that.Rhcp1016 (talk) 01:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * It's a contract extension - and it's for 6 years.JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 01:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

its for 7 years! 150.75 million and i quote the associated press: "NEW YORK (AP) — Johan Santana and the New York Mets agreed Friday to a $150.75 million, seven-year contract, a record for a pitcher and the last major step needed to finalize the team's blockbuster trade with Minnesota."Rhcp1016 (talk) 01:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * It's misleading. As I already wrote - he has 1 year left - that is included in the 7 years that the AP is reporting. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 01:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * see the NY times article - they do a better job explaining this JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 01:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I changed him to a Met. the trade is final now

 * His contract is for 152 million according to ny times...get you're facts straight.Rhcp1016 (talk) 01:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Jon Heyman explains it. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 01:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * exactly in total it is 150.75 million for 7 years. in total, that's what i have been saying all along! do you not understand?Rhcp1016 (talk) 01:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Read the sentence I have written VERY carefully.... "ON TOP" of the 1 year remaining of his current deal...  Mets are (going to be) signing him to a contract extension....  The last year of his current deal is still valid...  Use some common sense. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 01:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * and along with the contract the total will be 150.75 for seven years. THANK YOURhcp1016 (talk) 02:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * ok, thank you, he WOULD be guranteed if it is settled. thank you. i'm glad to see someone is working hard on keeping the article rightRhcp1016 (talk) 02:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I never said that wasn't the total.... but that wasn't what you were writing in the article. My sentence was about the extension... JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 02:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * i had misunerstood what u had said, but i was referring to the total. and second, isnt it due up in 2015? 1 year with the twins contract and 6 more with mets is a total of 7 ending in 2015.Rhcp1016 (talk) 02:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I know you had the right intentions... and as for the final year... here's the 7: 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 02:09, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * alright, glad we settled that. good luck keeping away the vandalismRhcp1016 (talk) 02:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

He was signed to a 6 year $137.5 extension of a 1 year $13.25 contract for a total of 7 years $150.75. Its up to 2014. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brian DB 38 (talk • contribs) 02:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Protect
I think this page needs to be protected. --Street20 (talk) 22:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Working on it. I'm too involved in the article to do it myself, looking for an outside opinion. Keeper  |   76  22:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've protected the article for three days. The potential trade should be cleared up by then.  Resolute 23:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Way too early for semi-protection. There was only one anon. editor who was vandalising the page. Other editors were simply adding speculative info in good faith. --Madchester (talk) 23:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Keep reading down the page history. This page has been continually vandalized by several IPs since the end of the 2007 baseball season. It's only going to get worse as the trade talks go through and are finalized.  And it's only for three days, then it's an onus back to us daily editors to fight off the Twins fans as they try to make him back into a Twin. -)  Cheers,    Keeper   |   76  23:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Good faith is a couple of attempts. I see four separate IP's being reverted multiple times in the last 50 edits alone.  At some point, trying to brute force the same speculation into an article crosses past good faith into disruption.  I am certain the anon users meant well, but this page needed to be semi'd. Resolute 23:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

wow, is the entire state of minnesota on wki tonight?
You guys just can't stand that Santana is a Met, can you? Just give the colors, already. EmperorNero (talk) 01:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC) no, look im from minnesota and i know its final

protected?
I don't understand, is the article protected ot not?-- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 02:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Only protected against non-wiki members. If you are new to wiki, then you cannot edit it.Rhcp1016 (talk) 02:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * There's IP's with no contrib history editing the page.-- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 02:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * It was for 3 days.... it most likely expired. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 02:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * So the tag and "lock" have to be removed? I thought that it's programmed to removed itself after the protection is over. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 02:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a bot that automatically removes lock icons from non protected pages when it is run. I'll remove it now, since the semi-protection has indeed expired. Resolute 06:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So out of curiousity, why didn't the bot do it in this case? -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 10:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If it is like most bots, it will only check when it is run. That would require its owner to run it, and since I saw the question a little over an hour after the protection expired, it's owner most likely just hadn't been operating it during that time. Resolute 07:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Non-shortened season
FTA: "No pitcher in Major League Baseball won 20 games in the 2006 season, the first time in modern major league history this occurred in a non-shortened season."

This is redundant and needless. If you can count, you should be able to understand that shortening the season (thereby eliminating potential starts) isn't likely to produce MORE 20-game winners. I'm removing this (please restore if you can really justify the inclusion). 76.237.176.138 (talk) 17:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Professional career
Two articles in the NY Post and NY Times have more information on his background. I tried to add them, however something is not working as the Preview of the changes look nothing like the changes I make. Here is what I'm trying to add. I'd like to see if someone else could try it since it doesn't seem to work for me. IceDrake523 (talk) 04:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Santana was discovered in 1994 by Andrés Reiner, a scout who was working for the Houston Astros at the time. He signed Santana and sent him to his academy in Guacara in January of 1995. Santana did not like it and almost left before Reiner convinced him to stay. While originally a center field, Santana was converted to a pitcher at the academy due to his arm speed. In 1999 he was named the Tovar Mérida Athlete of the Year. After the 1999 major league season, he was left unprotected by the Houston Astros and eligible in the Rule V draft. The Twins had the first pick that year, the Marlins the second. The Twins made a deal with the Marlins: the Twins would draft Jared camp with their first pick and the Marlins would draft Santana and would trade the two players with Minnesota receiving $500,000 to cover their pick.

Here are the sources: NY Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/sports/baseball/31scout.html?ex=1359435600&en=334dc68c9d6fc085&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

NY Post article http://www.nypost.com/seven/02032008/sports/mets/many_twists__turns_in_johans_journey_893005.htm?page=1

 * Looks like it was taken care of. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 07:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Yay Pic
I added a picture I captured at the game today. Enjoy!

EmperorNero (talk) 02:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

How bout the fact that someone could've won 20 in '94 even though it was shortened and ended in mid-August due to the strike, so put it back in —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.127.162 (talk) 21:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul of first paragraph.
The first paragraph contained a bunch of redundant information, I thought. I added the fact that he's a Cy Young winner, removed the contract talk, added circle change info (and wiki linked it), etc. If anyone disagrees, feel free to revert to whatever you feel is necessary, but I think it reads a bit better now. RiSK (talk) 06:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Pitcher of the Month
I am assuming we are just leaving out all of Johan's Pitcher of the Month awards? 69.116.10.109 (talk) 14:06, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

100-120 mph fastball?
Is this a page for Johan Santana or some mutant baseball player with a cannon for an arm? 120? BrainRotMenacer (talk) 16:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

EPIC. FAIL.
Someone keeps updating this protected page trying to document his every start, even ones that are not even notable. I removed them, but they keep return and editing it. I'm not mad or anything, but I'm wondering if anyone is noticing. He/She is posting crazy numbers (before I fixed it) that even the career stats, ERA and Team history was just...plain...wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yoshison (talk • contribs) 02:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Moving No-han reference to article body
Because it's too soon IMO to know if it will really stick as a nickname. Also added salary ranking in the contract section, and did some minor cleanup. --Threephi (talk) 17:20, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Johan_Santana&diff=prev&oldid=273275838
pls take a look on this edit from 2009. I've no idea if its vandalism or its true, but for me it seems to be false NobbiP (talk) 11:07, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Johan Santana


text:
Ry, Denmark

Ry is a town with a population of 7,479 (1 January 2024) in central Denmark, located in Skanderborg municipality in Jutland. The town sprouted up around a railway station 5 km east of the older town of Rye which is now much smaller than Ry.

Geography
Ry is located along the Gudenå (River Guden) between the lakes Gudensø, Birkesø, Vessø, Lillesø, Rye Møllesø and Knudsø.

Ry is known for Himmelbjerget one of the highest natural points in the Danish landscape. It is 147 m (482 ft) high.

Education
Ry continuation school has won the girls school football tournament in Denmark 2005 and 2006. In 2006 Gudenå School, Ry held Smallschool Festival with more than 1,500 participants.

Notable people

 * Pauline Thomsen (1858 – 1931 in Ry) a Danish painter and art teacher; lived in Ry
 * Maria Jacobsen (1882 in Siim near Ry – 1960) a Danish missionary and a key witness to the Armenian genocide
 * Anna Klindt Sørensen (1899 in Ry – 1985) a Danish painter and illustrator, a strong, self-assured women who practised French Expressionism
 * Ebbe Nielsen (1950 in Ry – 2001) a Danish entomologist, influential in systematics and Lepidoptera research
 * Peter Sommer (born 1974) a Danish singer and songwriter, lives in Ry
 * Jette Hansen (born 1987 in Ry) a female former Danish handball player
 * Lars Frederiksen & The Bastards (active years 2000–2005) an American street punk band, Lars Frederiksen lives in Ry

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Ry, Denmark


text: User talk:69.204.132.147

title: User talk:69.204.132.147


text:
User:KittyKMae

Hi :) I'm KittyKMae, or KKM....

Most of my contributions are grammar-related, because I'm a grammar Nazi...*shrugs*

title: User:KittyKMae


text:
Reuben Sturman

Reuben Sturman (August 16, 1924 – October 27, 1997), sometimes referred as the "Walt Disney of Porn", was an American pornographer and businessman from Ohio, who co-founded sex toys company Doc Johnson. He was featured as a subject in Eric Schlosser's 2003 book on underground economies, Reefer Madness: Sex, Drugs, and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market.

Life and career
Sturman, the son of immigrant Russian Jews, grew up on Cleveland's East Side. He served in the Army Air Forces during World War II and then went on to study at Case Western Reserve University, graduating in 1948, before starting his own business selling comic books from his car. By the late 1950s, his business had swelled to a major wholesale magazine company with affiliates in several American cities. During the 1960s, Sturman started selling magazines with sexual content, a product he discovered could make profits that outmatched anything that could be achieved by selling any kind of comic book. By the late 1960s, Sturman was the biggest distributor of adult magazines in the U.S.

His first problems with the authorities started in 1964, when Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agents raided a Cleveland warehouse, confiscating copies of a book entitled Sex Life of a Cop. This was the start of over two decades of legal difficulties. Though his operations were raided and large volumes of magazines were confiscated on numerous occasions, Sturman managed to avoid prosecution by counter-suits, shady business practices and by using at least 20 different aliases to protect his identity. Sturman became increasingly involved in semi-legal or criminal activities during this time, and had connections with the Gambino crime family.

The American journalist and writer Eric Schlosser described Sturman in a U.S. News & World Report article in 1997:

"To his defenders in the sex industry, Sturman was a marketing genius and a champion of free speech, an entrepreneur whose toughness, intelligence, and boundless self-confidence were responsible for his successes. But to anti-porn activists and Justice Department officials, Sturman was the head of a vast criminal organization whose companies enjoyed an unfair competitive advantage: protection and support from the highest levels of the Cosa Nostra."

Sturman's refusal to pay taxes properly finally brought him down. In 1989, Sturman was convicted of tax evasion and sentenced to 10 years in jail and $2.5 million in fines. Another charge, this time for the interstate transportation of obscene material, resulted in a plea bargain for Sturman, but he was later caught trying to bribe a juror, via his ex-wife, and was sentenced to 19 additional years for extortion. He briefly escaped prison in Boron, California, but was re-apprehended in Anaheim. He died in a federal prison in Lexington, Kentucky on October 27, 1997.

title: Reuben Sturman


text:
A Good Woman (film)

A Good Woman is a 2004 romantic comedy drama film directed by Mike Barker. The screenplay by Howard Himelstein is based on the 1892 play Lady Windermere's Fan by Oscar Wilde. It is the fourth screen version of the work, following a 1916 silent film using Wilde's original title, Ernst Lubitsch's 1925 version, and Otto Preminger's 1949 adaptation entitled The Fan.

Plot
In 1930 New York City, femme fatale Mrs. Erlynne finds that she is no longer welcomed by either the high-ranking men she has seduced or the society wives she has betrayed. Selling her jewelry, she buys passage on a liner bound for Amalfi, Italy, where she apparently sets her sights on newlywed Robert Windermere. When his car frequently is seen parked outside her villa, local gossip becomes convinced the two are having an affair.

Robert's demure wife Meg remains oblivious to the stories about the two circulating throughout the town, but when she discovers her husband's cheque register with numerous stubs indicating payments to Erlynne, she suspects the worst. What she doesn't know is that Erlynne actually is her mother, who has been extorting payments from Robert in return for keeping her secret. Meg is consoled with the advice, "Plain women resort to crying; pretty women go shopping."

In retaliation for what she believes is her husband's transgression, Meg wears a revealing gown to her twenty-first birthday celebration, attended by Erlynne – wearing the same dress – in the company of Lord Augustus ("Tuppy"), a wealthy, twice-divorced man who has proposed marriage to Erlynne. Complications ensue when Lord Darlington professes his love for Meg and implores her to leave her supposedly wayward husband – an invitation she accepts.

Erlynne, having found Meg's farewell note to Robert, intercepts her on Darlington's yacht, where the two are trapped when Tuppy, Darlington, Robert, and friends arrive for a night of drinking. Robert is startled to see the fan he gave Meg at her birthday party; while Meg makes a hasty escape, Erlynne reveals herself and claims she had taken it from the party in error. Tuppy, thinking his fiancée was planning a romantic rendezvous with Darlington, ends their engagement.

Robert pays Erlynne to leave Amalfi immediately and begs her not to reveal her identity to Meg. Reluctantly, she complies with his wishes, although she returns his final cheque before she departs. On board the plane waiting to take her to a new life, she discovers Tuppy, who presents her with the fan Meg gave him; Meg has provided an explanation that ensures he realised his fiancee was not planning a rendezvous with Darlington. Erlynne accepts his renewed proposal of marriage and the two depart for places unknown.

Production notes
Twenty-two people from Spain, Italy, the United Kingdom, the United States, and Luxembourg were credited as producers of the film, with the closing credits identifying it as "An Anglo-Italian-Spanish Co-Production".

It was shot on location in Italy at Amalfi, Atrani, Ravello, Sorrento, and Rome.

It grossed $238,609 in the US and $6,639,233 in foreign markets for a total worldwide box office of $6,877,842.

Critical reception
In his review in The New York Times, Stephen Holden called the film a "misbegotten Hollywood-minded screen adaptation" and added, "There is an excruciating divide between the film's British actors (led by Tom Wilkinson and Stephen Campbell Moore), who are comfortable delivering Wilde's aphorisms . . . and its American marquee names, Helen Hunt and Scarlett Johansson, [who have] little connection to the English language as spoken in the high Wildean style."

Derek Elley of Variety stated, "In most respects, the film is so far from Wilde's play that it's practically a separate work. Bathed in pastels, ochres, blacks, and golds, and easily moving around a variety of locations, it's like another slice of '30s nostalgia in the vein of Enchanted April or Where Angels Fear to Tread. Though undeniably retaining their wit, the Wilde-isms are finally more of a distraction, imported from another world and another genre."

In the San Francisco Chronicle, Mick LaSalle opined, "There's nothing to dislike about this movie . . . Yet something is wrong with A Good Woman: The lightning never strikes. It's never quite alive . . . the process of literalizing the action, an inevitable consequence of moving a play to the screen, makes [it] less exaggerated and more somber than is ideal. But nothing can diminish the wit and the pleasure of Wilde's epigrams."

Kenneth Turan of the Los Angeles Times wrote, "The film is well-intentioned and mildly diverting, but in attempting to modernize its story it has lost many of the things that make the original so memorable and not gained much in return . . . Despite its talented cast, the result lacks Wilde's trademark bite; it's soft and middlebrow, even though he was anything but . . . Although transposing this story to photogenic Italy makes for the requisite number of scenic vistas, it also creates a number of problems for the story, starting with the fact that Wilde's concerns about the restrictive nature of society don't play as well outside the rigid confines of Victorian England. Also sacrificed in this more naturalistic production is the brilliance of Wilde's artifice. The sharpness and crackling energy of his conception, frankly, makes a bad fit with the film's fitful and not particularly successful attempts to make these characters more well-rounded. . . A Good Woman won't ruin anyone's day, but it won't make anyone's either, and it won't get the great Irish playwright anything like the admiration his work deserves."

In The Times, Wendy Ide observed, "There’s more life in Oscar Wilde’s long-dead corpse than there is in A Good Woman . . . spiked with as many pithy Wildean aphorisms as could be cannibalised from his other work and crowbarred unceremoniously into the flagging script."

Rotten Tomatoes reports a 37% approval rating based on 83 reviews with an average rating of 5.3/10 and the consensus that the film "lacks bite due to liberties taken with the source material, coupled with uneven performances."

Hunt's performance was panned with the AV Club saying, "Helen Hunt looks embarrassingly out of place trying to play an infamous seductress."

title: A Good Woman (film)


text:
Calixarene

A calixarene is a macrocycle or cyclic oligomer based on a methylene-linked phenols. With hydrophobic cavities that can hold smaller molecules or ions, calixarenes belong to the class of cavitands known in host–guest chemistry.

Nomenclature
Calixarene nomenclature is straightforward and involves counting the number of repeating units in the ring and including it in the name. A calix[4]arene has 4 units in the ring and a calix[6]arene has 6. A substituent in the meso position Rb is added to the name with a prefix C- as in C-methylcalix[6]arene The word calixarene is derived from the Greek calix or chalice because this type of molecule resembles a vase (or cup) and from the word arene that refers to the aromatic building block.

Synthesis
Calixarenes are generally produced by condensation of two components: an electron-rich aromatic compound, classically a 4-substituted phenol, and an aldehyde, classically formaldehyde.

 * The scope for the aromatic component is broad diverse. The key attribute is susceptibility toward hydroxyalkylation. The related resorcinarenes and pyrogallolarenes are produced from resorcinol and pyrogallol, respectively.
 * The aldehyde most often used is formaldehyde, while larger aldehydes, like acetaldehyde, are usually required in condensation reactions with resorcinol and pyrogallol to facilitate formation of the C4v symmetric vase conformation. Additionally, substituted aldehydes and some heterocycles (e.g. furan) may be used to impart additional functional groups onto the pendent groups of resorcinarenes and pyrogallolarenes.

Calixarenes can be challenging to synthesize, producing instead complex mixtures of linear and cyclic oligomers. With finely tuned starting materials and reaction conditions, synthesis can also be surprisingly efficient. Calixarenes are sparingly soluble as parent compounds and have high melting points.

Structure
Calixarenes are characterised by a three-dimensional basket, cup or bucket shape. In calix[4]arenes the internal volume is around 10 cubic angstroms. Calixarenes are characterised by a wide upper rim and a narrow lower rim and a central annulus. With phenol as a starting material the 4 hydroxyl groups are intrannular on the lower rim. In a resorcin[4]arene 8 hydroxyl groups are placed extraannular on the upper ring. Calixarenes exist in different chemical conformations because rotation around the methylene bridge is not difficult. In calix[4]arene 4 up–down conformations exist: cone (point group C2v,C4v), partial cone Cs, 1,2 alternate C2h and 1,3 alternate D2d. The 4 hydroxyl groups interact by hydrogen bonding and stabilize the cone conformation. This conformation is in dynamic equilibrium with the other conformations. Conformations can be locked in place with proper substituents replacing the hydroxyl groups which increase the rotational barrier. Alternatively placing a bulky substituent on the upper rim also locks a conformation. The calixarene based on p-tert-butyl phenol is also a cone. Calixarenes are structurally related to the pillararenes.

History
In 1872 Adolf von Baeyer mixed various aldehydes, including formaldehyde, with phenols in a strongly acidic solution. The resultant tars defied characterization; but represented the typical products of a phenol/formaldehyde polymerization. Leo Baekeland discovered that these tars could be cured into a brittle substance which he marketed as "Bakelite". This polymer was the first commercial synthetic plastic.

The success of Bakelite spurred scientific investigations into the chemistry of the phenol/formaldehyde reaction. One result was the discovery made in 1942 by Alois Zinke, that p-alkyl phenols and formaldehyde in a strongly basic solution yield mixtures containing cyclic tetramers. Concomitantly, Joseph Niederl and H. J. Vogel obtained similar cyclic tetramers from the acid-catalyzed reaction of resorcinol and aldehydes such as benzaldehyde. A number of years later, John Cornforth showed that the product from p-tert-butylphenol and formaldehyde is a mixture of the cyclic tetramer and another ambiguous cyclomer. His interest in these compounds was in the tuberculostatic properties of their oxyethylated derivatives.

In the early 1970s C. David Gutsche recognized the calix shape of the cyclic tetramer and thought that it might furnish the structure for building an enzyme xenologue. He initiated a study that lasted for three decades. His attention to these compounds came from acquaintance with the Petrolite company's commercial demulsifiers, made by ethoxylation of the still ambiguous products from p-alkylphenols and formaldehyde. He introduced the name "calixarene": from "calix", the Greek name for a chalice, and "arene" for the presence of aryl groups in the cyclic array. He also determined the structures for the cyclic tetramer, hexamer, and octamer, along with procedures for obtaining these materials in good to excellent yields. He then established procedures for attaching functional groups to both the upper and lower rims and mapped the conformational states of these flexible molecules. Additionally, he proved that the cyclic tetramer can be frozen into a cone conformation, by the addition of measurably large substituents to the lower "rim" of the calix shape.

Concomitant with Gutsche's work was that of the Hermann Kämmerer and Volker Böhmer. They developed methods for the stepwise synthesis of calixarenes. Chemists of University of Parma, Giovanni Andreetti, Rocco Ungaro and Andrea Pochini were the first to resolve X-ray crystallographic images of calixarenes. In the mid 1980s, other investigators joined the field of calixarene chemistry. It has become an important aspect of supramolecular chemistry and attracts the attention of hundreds of scientists around the world. The Niederl cyclic tetramers from resorcinol and aldehydes were studied in detail by Donald J. Cram, who called the derived compounds "cavitands" and "carcerands". An accurate and detailed history of the calixarenes along with extensive discussion of calixarene chemistry can be found in Gutsche's monograph.

Medical uses
Water soluble calixarenes, such as para-sulfontocalix[4]arene, have not only been examined for drug delivery., but also for their potential as pharmaceutical drugs themselves, directly combating disease. Calix[6]arene, for instance, has been shown to inhibit extracellular vesicle biogenesis of extracellular vesicles in pancreatic cancer. In turn, this impairs release of matrix metalloprotease enzymes in the tumor microenvironment, in turn slowing down metastasis of disease. Thus in conjunction with their low toxicity they are considered promising agents for combating oncological disease.

Host guest interactions
Calixarenes are used in commercial applications as sodium selective electrodes for the measurement of sodium levels in blood. Calixarenes also form complexes with cadmium, lead, lanthanides and actinides. Calix[5]arene and the C70 fullerene in p-xylene form a ball-and-socket supramolecular complex. Calixarenes also form exo-calix ammonium salts with aliphatic amines such as piperidine. Derivatives or homologues of calix[4]arene exhibit highly selective binding behavior towards anions (especially halogen anions) with changes in optical properties such as fluorescence.

Calixarenes in general, and more specifically calix[4]arenes have been extensively investigated as platforms for catalysts. Some complexes compounds are active for hydrolytic reactions.

Calixarenes are of interest as enzyme mimetics, components of ion sensitive electrodes or sensors, selective membranes, non-linear optics and in HPLC stationary phases. In addition, in nanotechnology calixarenes are used as negative resist for high-resolution electron beam lithography.

A tetrathia[4]arene is found to mimic some properties of the aquaporin proteins. This calixarene adopts a 1,3-alternate conformation (methoxy groups populate the lower ring) and water is not contained in the basket but grabbed by two opposing tert-butyl groups on the outer rim in a pincer. The nonporous and hydrophobic crystals are soaked in water for 8 hours in which time the calixarene:water ratio nevertheless acquires the value of one.

Calixarenes accelerate reactions taking place inside the concavity by a combination of local concentration effect and polar stabilization of the transition state. An extended resorcin[4]arene cavitand is found to accelerate the reaction rate of a Menshutkin reaction between quinuclidine and butylbromide by a factor of 1600.

In heterocalixarenes the phenolic units are replaced by heterocycles, for instance by furans in calix[n]furanes and by pyridines in calix[n]pyridines. Calixarenes have been used as the macrocycle portion of a rotaxane and two calixarene molecules covalently joined together by the lower rims form carcerands.

title: Calixarene


text:
Talk:Anya Corazon

Araña
I'm trying to edit the grammar and punctuation of this article. My lack of knowledge of the subject has only caused a few problems, but someone should check to ensure that I have not altered information and made it incorrect. The summary following the "In the Beginning" header was sort of a train wreck. I could not really determine what the original writer was describing with the "a bunch of helicopters, in the service...," but I took a stab at cleaning it up.

Still someone needs to verify that I have not changed any facts.

Thanks sT.

Dear sT. goto Araña page at SpiderFan.org for info. --User:Brown Shoes22

 * I checked that out, hoping to find the kind of plot information that I needed. What this article really needs is someone who knows the comic and grammar rules to look over it.  Still, let me know if I have erroniously edited in plot-based mistakes.--Smallwhitelight 04:24, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I had already read the spiderfan.org article, and am currently trying to rewrite. There's a lot of information there that needs to be digested. My objective is to reduce the plot synopsis to two paragraphs per story arc. --Pc13 14:15, 2005 May 31 (UTC)

Old Cleanup Archive

 * ''Taken from the old Cleanup entry…Archived by HopeSeekr of xMule (Talk) 15:38, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Araña is once again becoming a complete mess. The plot synopsis is bloated and convoluted, there's loads of HTML code in there, and atrocious spelling and grammar. --Pc13 09:58, 2005 May 16 (UTC)

Why was this Trivia info removed?
Trivia: --Brown Shoes22 16:17, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 * In Araña the third iusse, Amun is on the Internet looking for more information about Anya:
 * The name on her birth certificate is Aña Sofia Conazon
 * Her eighth grade final quarter grades: English: A+, Math: B-, History: B+, Science: A-, Shop: A+, Gym:A.
 * Born on 17 June 1989.
 * At Born: weighing 7 lbs 3 ozs.
 * At Born: measuring 19 inches in length.
 * Her birth certificate was signed by Dr Enrique Simoneson.
 * Gil Corazon was born on 24 October 1964, got his MS in Journalism from Columbia University and has previously lived in Puerto Rico and Mexico. His full Name is Gillberto Conazon. Address is 247 Lafeyette Ave. Brookyn_NY 11217. SS# 458-68-6572.

 * I didn't remove it, but I can understand why someone did. None of it, except maybe the year she was born and possibly her father's background, is important to an encyclopediac entry.  It's not useful information in any sense of the word. Pitr 19:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, its what we call fancruft. Jack Cain 00:07, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's also ungrammatical and frequently poorly spelled. Some of it (birth info) is of such minor importance (and liable to be retconned as needed) as to be irrelevant.  The facts of passing importance (birth date, full name, etc.) could be expressed more efficiently as part of the article, with the issue cited as source.  As formatted above, it takes too much space to present largely unimportant and unencyclopedic material. Canonblack 20:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Chicken Cow and Civil War
Just a quick note, it seems Anya's job at the "Chicken Cow" is a reference to a minor (but interesting) Marvel character named Chtylok []. Just so you know. - Kevingarcia 05:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism
"Arana learned that she is not a true hunter. No hunter before her has ever had an exo-skeleton like hers. In a fight with "The Sisterhood of the Wasp" who attempted to resurrect their hunter, she released the power of the Hunter after Miguel died. Afterwards, she has quit WebCorps, though she's committed to fighting for the greater good."

This text clearly plagiarises a bio I wrote fro Marvel.com (which is copyright of Marvel). Here is the original text:

"Recently, Araña learned that she is not a true hunter. No hunter before her has ever had an exoskeleton like hers. In a battle in which the Sisterhood attempted to resurrect their hunter (even Spider-Man got involved), Miguel died and she released the power of the Hunter. Even though she has quit WebCorps, she will never stop fighting for the greater good." Sononsj 02:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

 * A lot of Wikipedia is cut-and-paste from other wiki websites, not just Marvel's character wiki, and vice-versa. Doesn't make it right, though.  If you feel you've been ripped off, feel free to change it to something different that conveys the same message. 142.26.194.190 (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Initiative cover
It's unclear to me why the entry should list that Araña appears on the cover to Avengers: The Initiative. I'm open to hearing a rationale/explanation, and look forward to a discussion of the material's importance.--Galliaz 23:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

 * This seems to me to be a sensible approach: when Araña does something of note in Avengers: Initiative, we can add a description of it to the entry. Otherwise, simply listing the cover appearance is superfluous.--Galliaz 22:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:ARANA001 COV.jpg
Image:ARANA001 COV.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Spider-Girl #6
The upcoming Spider-Girl #6 comic hints Anya will be getting powers of her own and confirms her age as 16, to reply to an aabove comment stating her age to be in her early 20's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.180.92.85 (talk) 09:18, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:20, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Araña → Anya Corazon – She is known as Araña AND Spider-Girl, so her page should be by her name just like Eddie Brock and Mac Gargan who have gone by more than one alias. Spidey 104  15:36, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Support two codenames Araña and Spider-Girl, a known name Anya Corazon, so I agree with the move.--Crazy runner (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Grim Hunt info incorrect
The section states that Anya lost her powers during the Grim Hunt. This is incorrect as per Spider-Girl #1 and the Grim Hunt series; her powers were lost *before* Grim Hunt. Please remove/correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmichaeln69 (talk • contribs) 23:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Also the section also incorrectly states that Madame Web came to her aid and that Anya was captured along with Madame Web. This is also incorrect as Madame Web was captured many Amazing Spider-Man issues *before* Grim Hunt started. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmichaeln69 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Anya Corazon


text:
Talk:The Road Not Taken

Untitled

 * See: WikiProject Poetry on guidelines on articles on individual poems.

Full Text
Considering that a link to the poem in the proper place, Wikisource, is already in the article, I do not believe the text of the poem should be written. I am removing it (again) unless someone has some compelling reason for me to replace it. Nrbelex (talk) 21:06, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I see where you may be coming from, considering that i recently dealt with this on the UN Declaration of Human Rights page, however I feel that the full text should stay. The poem is rather short and having it right there allows for us to speak of itnerpretations of the poem with the reader being able to immediately check against the poem itself. (Oh, and I gave this a talk category) Sir Elderberry 16:02, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree with Sir Elderberry. The article is much weaker without the text of the poem, and especially if any further information about it gets added later, when having the text as reference will be very useful. I want the text back. Djr36 21:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Could someone post a precedent here, cause I support posting the full text. Nick1000 04:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

hi

 * The Unknown Citizen heres a precedent Warfwar3 18:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I have put it back. Fire & Ice have the full test there. --Ahkat (talk) 07:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Also, WikiProject Poetry recommends including the full text for short poems.

 * Nbarth (email) (talk) 00:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Not cool that Bartleby's, not our Wikipedia, comes up way on top in search results for "two roads diverged in a yellow wood", so I'm putting the full text back in, k? LeoRomero (talk) 07:39, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That is perhaps the worst reason I've ever seen for an edit. --jpgordon:==( o ) 17:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I've given worse reasons. In any case: Inclusion of full text is in Dispute Resolution LeoRomero (talk) 17:52, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Autobiographical Section
Why is there an autobiographical section? If it offered some central information such as that Frost's family was mostly agrarian but he chose to become a poet, then it would be useful. As it stands, it is a repeat of the page on Robert Frost

 * It is not the factthat the poem reflects Frost's profession, but the influnce within his profession, in which he uses the old verse forms instead of following the way of that time which was to experiment with new verse forms.-- May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 ($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|)  10:41, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Perhaps it should be merged with the section below. It just seems that the biographical section does not clearly draw the connection between aspects of his life and this particular poem. Maybe as a subtitle in the Interpretation section, there could be a little bit about his life and how it influenced his poetry and this in particular.

Is it less traveled?
The speaker only claims that it was the path less traveled in the fourth stanza, when he is looking back upon his choice. In the second stanza the speaker decides that "the passing there/Had worn them really about the same", or that there was no path less traveled. Perhaps the speaker likes to think that he has taken the path less traveled when really, he is just a guy who can't make up his mind. I will not make any changes to the page as I am not ignorant enough to pretend that my opinion is the only one that matters yet it may be a good idea not to make any kind of attempt of explicating the poem. The Road Not Taken is far more complicated than many think and perhaps Wikipedia should offer just the concrete facts and no opinions in their pages. I am not at all an expert on poetry explication, so if you are, please share your ideas as they would be very helpful.

~Owen
 * I think that this comment is a mistake - it was _the passing there_ that had worn them really about the same. That is, it was definitely less traveled, but even a less traveled road gets more traveled when the author travels it. I took that part of the comment out, since I think it's (a) wrong, and (b) unsourced. But I think it should be replaced by a sourced description of an alternative explanation, if someone knows one. MikeR613 (talk) 14:59, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * What he means by it is that though one path is less travelled, neither path has been used recently, so the leaves have fallen equally on both sides and nobody's steps have disturbed them. That is why they look equal to him that morning when he passes there.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91  ($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|)  10:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

 * While the writer of the explication makes a very compelling point, the writer's tone is unbalanced and should probably not be offerred unless he or she can offer an equally compelling argument to the contrary. This explication is far less encyclopedaic than it is editorial.

Rob 04:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we can state what Frost actually means by any of this unless we are quoting a reference in which Frost himself offers such information or insight. Anything of that sort is simply opinion and not fact .. Thus has no place in this wiki .. A .. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.172.169.15 (talk) 15:29, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it is. When the author says, "And both that morning equally lay in leaves", he may be speaking of deception. The roads covered by the leaves can be a representation of confusion created by the deception of the paths covered by leaves, which signifies that though the two paths were different, the leaves make them look the same. And the lines, "Oh! I kept the first for another day! Yet knowing how way leads onto way, I doubted if I should ever come back." may mean that the poet is regretting that though he knew he wouldn't be able to turn back and take the "road taken", and yet he took the "road not taken", which may refer to his decision to be a poet. With this in mind, it is surely a road less traveled.

What If?
What if Widipedia asked experts to write their ideas and then put them all in, under an opinion section or somthing. That way we could know what was fact and what was just an idea. --216.170.244.103 02:03, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't follow the logic that adding ideas to the page would help its readers distinguish facts from ideas, but generally I agree that this page in particular would benefit from sources that explicate this poem. -- thither 03:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What is endlessly interesting to me is that the word "ALAS" is actually in the last couplet - so it is NOT a happy poem. I don't know how or where, but somehow this very obviously UNHAPPY word has been removed from the text in every online reference I have seen. I know - I studied this ad nauseum in undergrad. That is why the poem is called THE ROAD NOT TAKEN, and the speaker says, with a sigh, "ALAS": he's NOT happy about his choice of roads. I think it is rather funny how this has become misconstrued as a work of contentment.

Lyrics
Are we allowed to have lyrics here? I asked elsewhere, and it was suggested that we cannot put lyrics on the site because of copyright violations.--Vercalos 05:30, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Lyrics are the words in a song. This is a poem. Also, since this poem was published before 1923 it is in the public domain, so there is no copyright violation. --Carlos 23:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Meaning
Frost uses metaphor in the poem; comparing the two paths to the choices we choose in life and what the consequences of it will be. He's not talking about standing out of the crowd, otherwise the title would be "The Road Taken" instead of "The Road Not Taken". He clearly explains that we would later have to deal with the experiences we did not have.

I removed this from the main article:

-- I must take issue with the last opinion statement just above this. I feel that by definition, a true Poet is taking the "road less traveled". Much of what comes to pass as Modern Poetry is written by brave youths in angst of some precieved slight. However real or not this slight may be, their words will carry both more and less weight for the both the writer and the reader long after said youth has shed the quill along with his/her childhood to follow other potentials. However, the true Poet, gives his life to a craft, and a world, that is rarely grateful within his lifetime and is more often thereafter forgotten entirely. This is frequently done to express a personal view that is often misinterpreted or overlooked by "more learned" genteel laypersons. However, a true Poet is willing to endure such for the love of the Craft and the Art. This act is rarely within the scope of the average person's vision and desires. However, this by no means guarantees the words or meaning of their life's toil are good, or even plausibe. But, by these very facts do they follow a "road less traveled". To think less of it is to become less while thinking yourself more. ssandefur -- opinion, ex parte.

-- In addition, that he told it "with a sigh" by no means necessitates that he was lying. He very easily could have been and, it seems, was, implying that any choice leads "on to way", and no matter what, when one looks back one always regrets the road not taken, or at least the possibility of it.

I believe he is talking about the difficult decision he had to make about moving to England short after his son, mother and one day old baby girl died. It was difficult and costly to go across the atlantic during this time, but it was a good thing he did the difficult thing because Frost was discovered as a poet while he was in England. So i guess he would say it with a "sigh" because in the end it was the death of three people who were very close to him that died for him to want a chance to start over in life and move to England.

Two sets of explanations
The article has two sets of explanations. Shouldn't we converge them into one?

--Mahendra 03:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC) This poem used symbolism to tell us that we can only choose one route for our lives, if we had chose the wrong one, then we won't success. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.100.159.220 (talk) 19:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

--I think this poem tells us about decisions that we have to make through out our lives and that we must choose wisely because some mistakes are hard to erase. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.205.129.173 (talk) 08:59, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Removed Random Edit
I've removed this 'random edit':"I hate my wife" from the Explanation. Hopefully no objections... Snowonster 00:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Removed still more vandalism from this user: "(she sucks)" Snowonster 01:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

What awards did this win?!!

Robert Frost won 4 Pulitzer Prizes. If I am not mistaken, The Road Not Taken was in Mountain Internal which was his thrid publication in 1916. He's first Pulitzer Prize wasn't untill 1923 for his fourth publication the New Hampshire Collection.

Awkward sentence?
"Some believe readers must acknowledge" is, in my opinion, an awkward statement. Any ideas for improvement?

"What This Poem Really Means"
I believe the final paragraph to the article is out of place, as it is a personal interpretation of the poem (one I strongly disagree with) presented as its true meaning. It also uses informal voice (second person singular) and is just generally poorly-written. I do think that, considering the nature of poetry, all interpretations should have some mention, however this particular entry simply doesn't match the rest of the article. I've just created my wikipedia account, so I'm a bit weary over making any immediate edits right off the bat. In any case, does anyone agree? LbCyber 08:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it's just a personal point of view and should be taken out. WorkerBee 13:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

This poem amazing
It unites with the people of America. The road less traveled by is the correct road to take of meaning and so on.

This poem is the best one I've heard in a long time. I love your writing skills Robert Frost! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonas Sister10 (talk • contribs) 19:06, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

That's not what it means. Both roads were just as traveled. It's only in Frost's memory that he will claim one was "less traveled". The truth is there was no real difference between the 2 paths. --71.72.151.150 (talk) 05:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Dude, wheres the poem
well, if its a poem, we should have it, no use explaining something if we dont know what it is.Blacksmith2talk 09:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Interpretations of the poem
The narrator is NOT saying he took the road less traveled and that that has made all the difference. He is saying that that is how he will tell the story "somewhere ages and ages hence." Not all interpretations are valid, especially if they are based on misreadings of the text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.237.239.122 (talk) 21:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Where is Frost when you need him (He's dead, that's where).24.188.68.134 (talk) 01:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC) Stoical Iceman

I agree that the article is biased and generally inaccurate. There is a letter a girlfriend once gave me that explained the poem- it was Frost writing to Thomas after having moved back to America. Does anyone know where that is? And is there a reason you cannot have the text here? Copyright? This should be fair use. BondAndFree (talk) 01:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Frost said of the poem "I wasn't thinking about myself there, but about a friend who had gone off to war, a person who, whichever road he went, would be sorry he didn't go the other. He was hard on himself that way." Kap42 (talk) 23:11, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

See the SparkNotes page for the poem and you will see a careful explication backed up by references to the text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.38.102 (talk) 14:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe I read somewhere that Frost himself stated he had written the poem to poke fun at one of his friends, who hiked with him and would agonize over which path to take if they came upon a fork in the road. If this is true, then the whole poem should be taken to mean something more like choosing a path doesn't really make a difference, shouldn't it? Can anyone confirm whether this is true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.165.19 (talk) 23:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

The "path" mentioned in "The Road Not Taken" represents life in general. Frost explains how is in a situation in his life where he must make a decision. It explains to us how we have to choose one thing, and how some of us spend time deliberating which is the best choice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.238.73.24 (talk) 22:57, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The "path" may be the choices of your peers. By going on the path not taken, you are being different from everyone else and that may benefit you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.226.36.81 (talk) 20:44, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Details...Details...Details...
This section lacks details...It needs more than just its explanation.

This is the questions that needs to be answered and included in the main article:

What is its poetic form, poetic diction, meter and all the elements of poetry?

You should add this to the article because these details are important especially if you have to write an essay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Triadwarfare (talk • contribs) 15:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Alternative explanation
There's a conventional reading of this poem--basically, that choosing the less-traveled path will make all the difference--and then there's another reading that sees the conclusion of the poem as ironic, with Frost actually saying that our choices our largely random and meaningless and the sense of choice a story that we tell ourselves afterwards. A good explication of this second reading is given in Harper's Magazine, August 2000, "Death of the Hired Poem," by John Jeremiah Sullivan. I don't have access to the full text of the article, otherwise I'd put in a reference.

Nareek (talk) 12:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Thanks – I’ve added a reference.
 * Nbarth (email) (talk) 23:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Interpretations
The article should include:
 * both the popular interpretation as inspirational,
 * and the critical interpretation as ironic, and
 * label them as such.

My understanding of Wikipedia policy is that, as per WP:NOR, people should not write their own interpretations, nor, as per WP:NPOV, should we take a side in a critical debate, but instead we should describe differing interpretations, with citations (as per WP:V).

I’ve made a start of this in this revision, but this is a very famous poem, and the article could use considerable work.

Nbarth (email) (talk) 00:23, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

 * The revision noted above made a change that put quotation marks around the phrase "Frost intended the poem as a gentle jab at his great friend and fellow poet Edward Thomas, and seemed amused at this certain interpretation of the poem as inspirational" which implied that this was a direct quote from the book Frost: A Literary Life Reconsidered. As far as I can tell the book does not contain this text and so presumably the quotes were inadvertently placed.  I've removed them and in the process reverted an additional, later change that had been made to the sentence.  I also removed another later addition, sandwiched between the quote and the reference, that seemed tacked on; it's close to accurate but appears hastily written, with missing whitespace, a badly formatted excerpt from the poem, and grammar that needs a bit of improvement.  I'm not sure an explanation like it is necessary.  If so, it should either be modified, or not be inside this particular reference (the book states that Thomas "always castigated himself" about choosing a path, not "one day").

 * Ocvailes (talk) 02:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There seems to be a great desire for middle school pupils to put their own interpretations into this article. --jpgordon:==( o ) 00:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Contradiction
This article contradicts itself by saying ", The poem admits two common interpretations," but in the last line of the first interpretation it is phrased: "He is saying he regrets the choice that he made," which is basically the introduction of the "second interpretation." I believe something should be changed for this, to eliminate the contradictory content. Since the second interpretation somewhat switches it's view halfway through, it should be fixed or refreshed literally, so as to remove confusion and contradictions. Rusober (talk) 00:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree that there is a contradiction, but I feel that the revision should be made on the first line of the literal interpretation. It states in the article that, "The literal interpretation of this poem believes it is about individualism and being your own person." yet it continues on to interpret the poem about regrets.

It is my understanding that the literal interpretation of the poem is about regretting choices made in the past that cannot be changed. The ironic interpretation of the poem is about the fruitlessness of regretting the choices that we have made. I'm not sure if this poem was ever intended (literal or ironic) to be inspirational, though that is my personal opinion/interpretation. Shu ster (talk) 15:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

mail time

 * I have great problems with the use of "literal" for one interpretation, which isn't even developed beyond some vague links to general terms. "Literal" seems to me to be claiming a truth based on the text that the text itself doesn't support. Perhaps a more accurate classification of interpretations would be "popular" and "critical." The poem has taken on a meaning in popular culture that isn't borne out by most close critical readings, so that seems like an accurate division.

--Lee1999 (talk) 18:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Commutativity
It's a shame this poem is being debated in such an obvious manner. Nareek, seemed to be pretty close. Which makes sense based on their comments. There is much more to this poem than a simple issue of conformativity and really it is kind of insulting to even mention that topic in relation to it I think. Hippies and Anarchists should find some new meaningless literature to discuss instead of ruining a great piece that actually has a purpose.

Be gone mindless wikipedian social free thinkers. Your pseudo conclusive reasoning is not accepted in regards to this poem. In my opinion of course. But then again, I am on the World of Warcraft website which makes me pretty credible. I would only think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rukaribe (talk • contribs) 05:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Interpretations
In Ihe Road Not Taken Frost uses metaphor to describe two choices as roads. Both road are almost equally the same, but one is taken too much and is wear out. That choice is the short and easy road. The other road is longer and difficult and is the one Frost will take. At then end he sighs for taking the longer road, however later saying by taking that road it made a difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.4.249.41 (talk) 23:49, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * What suggestions do you have to improve the article? --jpgordon:==( o ) 05:35, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Trivia
The poem is quoted in Down_by_Law_(film) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.53.45.125 (talk) 07:02, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Sigh? What sigh?
Forgive an ignorant philistine, but, and I've re-read it three times, the article talks at length about "the sigh"... but... what sigh??? Perhaps the article could be more clear?

86.25.170.118 (talk) 20:22, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 16:12, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The Road Not Taken (poem) → The Road Not Taken – This was moved in February 2009 without discussion. This is one of Frost's most famous poems so it should not be ambiguous. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 08:16, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Support. I wondered why it was not at that title already. --- The Old Jacobite The '45  12:37, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. If you google, the top eight results refer to the Frost poem. The No. 2 topic is not any of the things listed on the DAB, but rather a recent episode of the TV show Touch. Kauffner (talk) 17:09, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Well known as a poem. Apteva (talk) 03:25, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose – that title is taken, by a disambig page, since the term is ambiguous. Dicklyon (talk) 03:55, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Grey Gardens
It should be mentioned somewhere, like maybe in a "references in popular culture" or something similar, that the poem was mentioned in the documentary Grey Gardens Edith Bouvier Beale recites the poem, incorrectly, but does recite it best to her knowledge. --Matt723star (talk) 14:11, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Full text
Per WP:NOFULLTEXT, the full text of the poem should not be included here. No good reason has been offered for why this rule should be violated. The link to Wikisource is more than adequate for those who want to read the full poem. --- The Old Jacobite The '45  02:30, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I've protected the page. LeoRomero, do not mess with other people's comments. --jpgordon:==( o ) 01:41, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
 * jpgordon, please mind your tone and don't presume you comprehend my motives. I did not "mess" with comments. I rearranged Talk under the incorrect but well-intentioned notion that it will make things easier. No need to SHOUT.

 * Well...this hinges on the interpretation of "short". The example in WP:NOFULLTEXT, Ozymandias, is short enough to comfortably fit in a nice box. Does this work well aesthetically for this poem? I've put it in a box here; given how scant the article is (and the analysis section needs some proper cites real soon or will be tossed out as original research, making the article pretty much just the intro), it seems oversize; the Wikisource link is quite clickable. Regardless, the crap stuck in the article in this and similar edits is not tolerated under any circumstances. --jpgordon:==( o ) 01:44, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

 * I'm with Jpgordon, completely, particularly on the "crap" thing. Yes, one of them boxes would do nicely--in my opinion (sorry Jacobite) it's short enough to be included, and besides, it is one of the best-known and boringest poems in US lit, so its text is certainly not redundant. Drmies (talk) 02:23, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Drmies - I don't know what "crap" (language!) you guys are talking about, and I question your understanding of this poem, but do appreciate the sound advice from you and jpgordon. So are we okay with full text then? I prefer unboxed, like this other poem by Frost, Mending Wall. There so many wikis with long poems like this one, Porphyria's Lover, why yawl gotta pick on the one poem I use to illustrate how poems are so easily misunderstood? - Thanks; LeoRomero (talk) 03:42, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Nobody is "picking on you". You did the "B" part in WP:BRD just fine; when you met resistance, though, rather than discussing, you kept trying to get your way on the article page. Whether you are right or wrong about the content, your approach of edit warring, and then sticking crap in the main article, along with personal attacks in the edit summaries, wasn't helpful. I explained on your user talk page what I meant by "crap". --jpgordon:==( o ) 04:38, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean, thanks jpgordon. Re "crap", concur; should note though that back in the day (2006?) that was ok. Been so busy at work, can only do my Wikipedia duties while on vac. I like the new rules better. LeoRomero (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I still argue that the full text does not belong in the article, especially when it is very easy to click on the Wikisource link and see it. In addition, the full text can already be seen, again with a simple click, in the picture included at the top of the page.  Why do we need the repetition? --- The Old Jacobite The '45  14:42, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, that's one argument against having it there. I think it's marginally unaesthetic, but consistent with policy and somewhat consistent with practice to have it, set off preferably by the box. --jpgordon:==( o ) 15:29, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks TheOldJacobite, jpgordon, Drmies - I'll put the poem in a box shortly. LeoRomero (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry TheOldJacobite, I could have handled our disagreement much better.

Analysis
Seems to me it's about time for the "analysis" section to go. It still feels like mostly original research. --jpgordon:==( o ) 16:06, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Jpgordon, you just removed the entire section, except for a couple of references at the end? Seems to me that it's uncalled for to ignore what I think is a whole lot of people assuming that the poem is talking about individuality. I've adjusted your edit a little to make it clearer that these suggestions are just suggestions, not facts. But it still needs a clearer reference to what the Christina Sterbenz reference calls the most common misunderstanding. The wikipedia reader is entitled to know about the _standard_ interpretation of the poem; it isn't right to hide it.MikeR613 (talk) 16:01, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Then find a reliable source or three providing such interpretations, rather than what mostly seems to be people inserting something they heard in English class. --jpgordon:==( o ) 19:15, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

what is the link to Meta in the lead?
in the lead, why is "like the road fork itself" linked to the article Meta with zero comment about why? it should be explained or deleted. 98.7.201.234 (talk) 05:39, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Because an editor thought they were being clever about a year ago. Thanks for pointing it out; we discourage fortune cookies like that. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 15:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

How many editions / which one is used in article
There seems to be at least two editions of this poem, as described in the article. It's not clear which version Wikipedia uses, and it could actually be a non-official one for all I know.

 * https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44272/the-road-not-taken#guide
 * https://www.gutenberg.org/files/29345/29345-h/29345-h.htm

Both versions seem to be the same, I guess they have the same source (Mountain Interval?).

 * https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1915/08/a-group-of-poems/306620/

Uses "marked" instead of "kept".

Wikipedia version, some differences from the Poetry Foundation version as of 2021-06-21:
 * adds a comma after "in leaves"
 * removes one "as"

It should be made clearer which edition is / should be used, and fix the current text if that's not a proper edition. Caylane (talk) 13:59, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Leiden photo
Regarding this edit - it's not a misquote, is it? And even if it were, that hardly seems to me a reason to remove this image... W. P. Uzer (talk) 14:19, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it might be better if the picture included all three last lines. So I've undone my removal. Still, I don't really think the picture belongs. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 14:39, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

TITLE USE
Harry Turtledove has a well known science fiction short story using the title and making a deliberate allusion to the Frost poem in his plot. Should there perhaps be a note in the article citing this, or a disambiguation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:6A00:32DA:4D0E:1BD6:95C4:CD92 (talk) 17:36, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

gracie
i have bine panic attacks 2603:6011:E640:14:DF3F:E98D:DCB7:9D9E (talk) 01:01, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Road Not Taken


text:
Talk:Potassium iodide

I would be very surprised
I would be very surprised if, as claimed in this A-class article, HI were a better reducing agent than I-.--Smokefoot 00:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I think that the part about the iodide being oxidized more quickly in acid is due to the fact that
 * The oxidation of iodide to iodine by oxygen (and not to an oxyanion of iodine) requires acid
 * And HI has a positive enthalpy of formation and will decompose exothermically to form iodine and hydrogen gas.

The confusion probably comes from HI being used with red phosphorus to reduce ephedrine to methamphetamine. --71.227.190.111 21:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Information that potassium iodide can be useful in case of "problems" on nuclear reactor only and "cannot protect against other causes of radiation poisoning" is not correct. Fallout after nuclear explosion contains large amount of iodine isotopes. --Varnav 19:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Chemical Suppliers
I would like to have a discussion about the usefulness of chemical suppliers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:213.188.227.119

At KI, I have the feeling, that the list of suppliers is not neutral.

Best regards

Delisted GA
This article has been removed from the GA list due to lack of inline citations. Tarret 18:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

 * This article was renominated for GA status on 3/17/2007. I looked at it again, but I cannot list as it still fails the citation criteria. There are also several ?s in the infobox as well. Dr. Cash 00:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

 * To explain my reasons for not listing this as a good article, again, it's primarily citations. There are several statements in the article that need to be cited. For example:

 * "Potassium iodide is used in photography, in the preparation of silver(I) iodide for high speed photographic film:" This statement not only lacks a citation, but also leads directly into the equation without adequate explanation. It's awkward. A separate sentence (at least) should introduce the equation.
 * "In medical use, it can also serve as an antiseptic for people suffering from sore throat." Definitely needs referencing - the amount of supposed medical information on wikipedia that's unverified is ridiculous. "The dose is 0.5g-1.0g in 100mL, with the accompany of iodine (0.5g-1.0g in 100mL)." Specific dose information also needs a reference.
 * "KI is also used as a fluorescence quenching agent in biomedical research because of collisional quenching by its iodide ion."
 * "In aqueous solution with elemental iodine, it acts as a gold etchant and will attack and dissolve gold surfaces."
 * The entire 'radiation protection' section is weakly referenced. The one reference at the end of the section, linking to ki4u.com, I'm not sure I'd exactly call, "reliable." The table in this section is a bit awkward, too. Not sure how this fits into the article.
 * 'Precautions' has no citations.

In addition to citation, the infobox also lacks information, specifically with reference to the properties and structure sections. I don't think ?s in this table are really acceptable for articles of WP:GA status. These items should either have valid information, or "n/a" for not applicable.

Fix these things, and I think it would be a GA. But I cannot support as a GA without these issues fixed. Cheers! Dr. Cash 03:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Hello Derek, thanks for these recommendations. In my perception these apply to WP:FA status instead of WP:GA status. When this article be brought up to Featured status, these certainly should be taken into account. Wim van Dorst (Talk)'' 07:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

"Slightly bitter"?
I remember it as foully nasty. Tweeq (talk) 01:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

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Dose
There is a chart showing 130 mg as dosage. Further down in the article, it talks about the dosage being 250mg. I don't know which is correct.Gmosk (talk) 23:08, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

 * I've fixed this. The dose for blocking the thyroid against radioiodine is only about 100 mg iodide per day (adults), whereas the dose to block the thyroid from secreting thyroid hormone is as much as 750 mg iodide per day (adults). S B Harris 00:02, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Why is the dose for the solution measured in milligrams while the dose in the tablets in micrograms? Are we off by a thousand here? --Jon 75.119.130.158 (talk) 21:01, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The dose in tablets (the anti-nuclear tablets) is in milligrams. They are always 100 milligrams. You can get supplement tablets for nutrition which have doses far less (in micrograms, about 1000th as much) but they aren't the same thing, at all. S  B Harris 02:15, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I suspect the standard pills are in mg size (total) however, the actual KI that is in the pill may be lower. There maybe confusion in this article between, standard pill size and KI content. At this critical time, each number in this article should be verified. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 04:31, 15 March 2011 (UTC) Corrected and added source. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 04:39, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Please provide sources for, ,  ,. The mcg may be causing confusion to readers. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 04:50, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

There is still confusion about the dose. The article says, "two (2) drops of U.S.P. SSKI solution is equivalent to one 130 mg KI tablet (100 mg iodide)" -- but it also says a typical adult dose is "5 drops." Five drops, then, would give you 2 1/2 times as much KI as one tablet. Do we have an error in the article? Also, it seems that many people are confusing milligrams with micrograms. If we were to explicitly say that the dosage during nuclear emergencies (130 mg) is 867 times larger than the Recommended Daily Allowance (150 mcg), would this be correct? 174.24.126.88 (talk) 14:20, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Yes, this number is close to correct, although not quite, since the anti-nuclear-accident tablets always have 100 mg iodide (130 mg KI = 100 mg iodine). So they are 100/0.15 = 666 times larger in dose (okay, it's closer to 667, so not so beastly) than the nutritional dose. I've inserted this in several places in the article. This is one reason why KI antinuclear tablets and SSKI are never used for nutritional purposes-- they are both roughly 300 to 700 times more than the RDA/DRI for iodide/iodine. Also note that the adult dose of SSKI used for thyroid storm (thyrotoxicosis) or to loosen cough mucus, is 750 mg iodide per day (1 ml SSKI in divided doses), which is 7 or 8 times larger than the anti-radioiodine dose used in nuclear emergencies. The 100 mg iodide/150 mg KI tabs were designed for nuclear emergencies, with only this dose in mind, as the amount one adult needs, per day, in a nuclear emergency. The pills would have to be given at a dose of up to 7.5 pills per day to correspond with how SSKI is used, but they're not designed for that, and doctors never use the pills when they want to treat thyroid storm or (quite rare use, now) use iodide in such quantities, as an expectorant to treat thick mucus cough. This much iodide really has too many side effects to be used except for fairly dangerous things. And in addition, it absolutely cannot be given to women who might be pregnant, unless their lives are in acute danger from thyrotoxicosis, or they are heavily contaminated with radioiodine. S  B Harris

The USP formula vs. true saturated solution formula
I ran through the calculations, and the two kinds of SSKI are essentially identical. They both contain about 1000 mg KI per mL OF SOLUTION. This is made from about 140 g KI and 100 mL of water to yield 140 mL of solution with density 1.72. It is pure luck that a saturated solution of KI happens to be about 100% wt/v KI. So that's how/why it is made up to those round numbers by the USP. S B Harris 23:58, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

"Is the most commercially significant?"
"Is" sounds like a tall claim to base off of 26 year old statistics(1985). Second sentence first paragraph: "This white salt is the most commercially significant iodide compound, with approximately 37,000 tons produced in 1985."174.63.24.238 (talk) 18:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

This sort of data is not readily available, and until something better comes along, it is quite reasonable. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 20:46, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Possible Teratogen?
In the current "Precautions" section, it is stated that "Potassium iodide is a possible teratogen." There is currently not a reference for this claim, nor does the Teratogen article specifically list KI (though radioiodine from fallout is listed).

Teratogens can cause severe birth defects at the genetic level. The claim that KI (Potassium Iodide) is a possible teratogen is not well-defined in the article. Alcohol and Tobacco are listed teratogens, and if KI-treated table salt(in high doses)is also teratogenic, then perhaps some clarification such as "In high doses (or repeated high exposure), Potassium iodide exhibits teratogenic properties". Without some clarification, the inference is that the reader is "possibly" putting their family at risk by ingesting KI-treated table salts or NaCl substitutes resulting in side effects including two-headed cattle and cleft palate.

The article is far more polished than it used to be. Is it GA-worthy again?

WoodForge (talk) 23:54, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Distributed in immediate area of plant
From article:

"People in the areas immediately surrounding Chernobyl itself, however, were not given the supplement.[30]

Potassium iodide’s (KI) value as a radiation protective (thyroid blocking) agent was demonstrated at the time of the Chernobyl nuclear accident when Soviet authorities distributed it in a 30 km zone around the plant."

Two adjacent sentences claiming practically opposite things. Something is clearly wrong, or at least unclear, and I can't access source 30 so I can't verify it. --131.111.85.79 (talk) 09:17, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I've had a go at resolving this in the short term ("Reports differ..."), but I think someone with more knowledge will have to settle the argument in favour of one opinion or the other. AndyB (talk) 07:48, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

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Stability? If one opens an old unopened bottle of potassium iodide 130mg tablets, how well does it protect against nuclear accidents and nuclear bombs?
Assume storage at room temperature. In the summer the room temperature may be temporarily as high as 28C maybe.

--91.159.188.74 (talk) 21:34, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Potassium iodide


text:
Talk:Abstract data structure

Contrast from Abstract data types
As a reader, I still cannot distinguish Abstract data structure from Abstract data type. The temptation here would be to merge this entry with that for ADT's. Vonkje 21:06, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Abstract data structure