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Electro-diesel locomotive

An electro-diesel locomotive (also referred to as a dual-mode or bi-mode locomotive) is a type of locomotive that can be powered either from an electricity supply (like an electric locomotive) or by using the onboard diesel engine (like a diesel-electric locomotive). For the most part, these locomotives are built to serve regional, niche markets with a very specific purpose.

Overview
Electro-diesel locomotives are used to provide continuous journeys along routes that are only partly electrified without a change of locomotive, avoid extensive running of diesel under overhead electrical wires and giving a solution where diesel engines are banned. They may be designed or adapted mainly for electric use, mainly for diesel use or to work well as either electric or diesel.

Note that, as well as the electric multiple unit (EMU) and diesel multiple unit (DMU), where no discrete locomotive is present, an electro-diesel (bi-mode) multiple unit train is called electro-diesel multiple unit (EDMU) or bi-mode multiple unit (BMU).

Primarily electric
This is effectively an electric locomotive with a relatively small auxiliary diesel prime mover intended only for low-speed or short-distance operation (e.g. British Rail Class 73). Some of these, such as the British Rail Class 74, were converted from electric locomotives. The Southern Region of British Railways used these locomotives to cross non-electrified gaps and to haul boat trains that used tramways at the ports of Southampton and Weymouth. For economy, the diesel engine and its generator are considerably smaller than the electric capacity. The Southern types were of 1600 hp or 'Type 3' rating as electrics, but only 600 hp as diesels. Later classes had as much as 2500 hp on electric power, but still the same diesel engines. Despite this large difference, their comparable tractive efforts were much closer (around three-quarters as diesels) and so they could start and work equally heavy trains as diesels, but not to the same speeds.

From 2010, in continental Europe, the name "Last mile diesel" was getting popular. These are electric locomotives with a small diesel engine of truck type, used in low speed, low gear, for operation at small flat freight yards, eliminating the need for a shunter locomotive.

Primarily diesel
This is effectively a diesel locomotive with auxiliary electric motors (or connections to the existing traction motors), usually operating from 750 V DC third rail where non-electric traction is banned (e.g. EMD FL9, GE Genesis P32AC-DM, EMD DM30AC). The primary function for these models is to provide a "one-seat ride" (a rail trip that does not require a transfer to a different train) between the electrified and non-electrified sections of a rail system or to allow trains to run through tunnels or other segments of track where diesel locomotives are generally prohibited due to their production of exhaust; such locomotives are used for certain trains servicing the New York City terminals of Grand Central Terminal and Penn Station, as the various rail tunnels into Manhattan have exhaust restrictions. Once out of the tunnels, the engines are started and operation is as a normal diesel locomotive.

Full dual-mode
With modern electronics, it is much easier to construct (or adapt) an electro-diesel locomotive or multiple-unit which is equally at home running at high speeds both "under the wires" and under diesel power (e.g. British Rail Class 88, Bombardier ALP-45DP). These will normally operate under pure electric traction where possible, and use the diesel engines to extend the journeys along non-electrified sections which would not be cost effective to electrify. They may also be used on long cross-country routes to take advantage of shorter sections of electrified main lines.

Georgia
ETG, an experimental electro-diesel shunter converted at Tbilisi locomotive depot in 1967 from AMG5 diesel-hydraulic shunting locomotive (manufactured by Gratz, Austria) by replacing its diesel prime mover with less powerful diesel engine and two electric motors from VL22m locomotive. The locomotive operated for several years and was withdrawn in the 1970s.

Germany

 * Gmeinder class 478.6 diesel and 750 V DC third-rail (bottom contact).
 * Voith Futura, a 2009 CREAM Project concept locomotive rebuilt from DB 240 002.
 * Bombardier TRAXX "Last Mile Diesel", mainly electric. Orders signed 2010, to be delivered probably 2012.
 * Siemens Vectron Dual Mode

Poland

 * Pesa 111Ed Gama Marathon – mainly electric, with auxiliary diesel engine enabling last-mile operation on non-electrified tracks. Gama Marathon was first presented in 2012 at InnoTrans Berlin. The locomotive then underwent a series of tests with rail operators Lotos Kolej (in goods traffic) and PKP Intercity (in passenger traffic), after successful conclusion it was offered on the market. In July 2015 the Polish train-operating company Locomotiv bought the prototype and signed order for further two Marathons.
 * Newag Dragon – version of this electric freight locomotive for the Freightliner's Polish branch, Freightliner PL Sp. z o.o. (five units delivered in 2016) is equipped with auxiliary diesel engine.
 * Newag Griffin – a version of this electric freight locomotive, leased to Lotos Kolej in 2017 for 7 years with a provision to extend the lease, is equipped with auxiliary diesel engine.

Russia
In Russia, a number of electro-diesels were built which had both pantographs and diesel prime movers. These included:

 * ED16 (ЭД16), ED18 (ЭД18), and TEU1 (ТЭУ1) experimental narrow gauge models for 750 mm gauge railways with 6 kV 50 Hz AC overhead wires, produced by Demikhovo Machinebuilding Plant
 * OPE1 (ОПЭ1 ), full dual-mode freight locomotives, used mostly in quarries and some another industrial railways with 10 kV 50 Hz AC overhead wires, produced by Novocherkassk Electric Locomotive Plant. Each locomotive consists of two sections with dedicated electric and diesel power equipment, which can operate as a standalone single-ended electric or diesel locomotives, some of them are also equipped with a motorized dump car.
 * OPE1A (ОПЭ1А ), OPE1B (ОПЭ1Б) and PE3T (ПЭ3Т), full dual-mode freight steeplecab locomotives for quarry railways with overhead wires with 10 kV 50 Hz AC electrification (OPE1A/B) or 1.5 / 3 kV DC (PE3T), produced by Dnipro Electric Locomotive Plant, Ukraine. A complete locomotive consists of primary electric A unit with a cab, one diesel-electric B-unit with a lowered body and one motorized dump car, however most OPE1A locomotives were produced without diesel B-units and with two motorized dump cars.
 * LEW EL10 EL20, mainly electric locomotives for quarry railways with 10 kV 50 Hz AC overhead wires. Each locomotive is equipped with two motorized dump cars.
 * 2EV120, mainly electric two-unit freight locomotive, produced by Engels Locomotive Plant and derived from Bombardier TRAXX. Locomotive using both 3 kV DC and 25 kV 50 Hz overhead wires and can be equipped with auxiliary "Last Mile Diesel".

 * Warnings: the sections below are WORK IN PROGRESS, result of moving to "Electro-diesel multiple unit" the informations about Electro-diesel Multiple Unit, here incorrectly reported; please give help on this transfer.

Spain

 * FEVE 1.900 Series, 1500 V DC overhead wires. This series is a rebuild of FEVE 1.000 Series locomotive.
 * Euskotren TD2000 series, 1500 V DC overhead wires. This is a new construction locomotive. Built by CFD-Bagnères and Ingeteam.
 * CAF Bitrac 3600, 3000 V DC overhead wires. October 2007 order for nine freight Co-Co locomotives. Available in Bo-Bo and Co-Co wheel configuration, 1435 or gauge, and as freight or passenger versions of 120 and 180 km/h maximum speeds respectively.
 * Power cars for RENFE Class 730, by Talgo.

Switzerland

 * Rhaetian Railway Gem 4/4 801 and 802, 1000 V DC overhead wires (Bernina Railway)
 * Swiss Federal Railways Tem I 251–275 (1950–57), Tem II 276–298 (1967) and Tem III 321–365 (1954–62) shunters (Tem III see image) of which only few are still in service.
 * Swiss Federal Railways Eem 923 shunters using both 15 kV 16.7 Hz and 25 kV 50 Hz overhead wires and a 360 kW auxiliary diesel engine are on delivery from Stadler Rail's Winterthur plant.

United Kingdom
An experimental electro-diesel locomotive, DEL120, was built by London Underground in 1940 but was not a success. Two types have been built whose electricity source was a 750V DC third rail.

 * British Rail Class 73, dating from 1962 – the more successful design, with some still in regular use. They originally had lower power output in the diesel mode, but are re-engined to provide more power. (2020, 62 years since introduction)
 * British Rail Class 74 – rebuilt from British Rail Class 71 electric locomotives in 1967 and withdrawn by 1977.

Electro-diesel locomotives whose electricity source is 25 kV 50 Hz AC overhead line include:
 * British Rail Class 88 – locomotive used by Direct Rail Services. Introduced in 2017.

Canada

 * Bombardier ALP-45DP – 20 locomotives ordered for the Mascouche line (Exo) in a joint order with NJ Transit. They provide a through journey on this mostly unelectrified new line, which joins the existing electrified Deux-Montagnes line to access Montreal's Central Station through the poorly ventilated, 25 kV AC electric only Mount Royal Tunnel. With the conversion of the Deux-Montagnes line into the mainline of the Réseau express métropolitain light metro system and the permanent truncation of the Mascouche line to Ahuntsic station starting in January 2020, the ALP-45DPs will be run exclusively in diesel mode.

United States
Several, primarily diesel locomotive types and a multiple-unit have been built to operate off a 750 V DC third rail into the New York City terminals of Grand Central Terminal and Penn Station (with the third rail system being rarely used on open-air tracks).

The following are in service:
 * P32AC-DM – dual-mode version of GE Genesis, primarily diesel, electric mode is only used for service to Grand Central Terminal from Poughkeepsie or Wassaic, or Penn Station from Albany, Rutland, or Niagara Falls. They are also used on the Albany-New York section of trains between Penn Station and Chicago, Montreal, and Toronto. Those trains stop in Albany to switch to full diesel GE Genesis for the remainder of the journey.
 * EMD DM30AC – specific to Long Island Rail Road, primary diesel, electric mode is only used for service to Penn Station.
 * Bombardier ALP-45DP – 35 locomotives purchased by NJ Transit (with 17 more on order), to bridge gaps between non-electrified and electrified sections of track into New York Penn Station. These trains have been used to provide a "one-seat ride" to New York Penn Station for commuters using non-electrified portions of the system.

The following were retired from New York City service:
 * Baldwin RP-210 – primarily diesel-hydraulic, third-rail electric mode for short-term use only. All scrapped.
 * Fairbanks Morse P-12-42 – primarily diesel-electric, third-rail electric mode for short-term use only. All scrapped.
 * EMD FL9 – primarily diesel-electric, third-rail electric mode for short-term use only. Several examples preserved and/or in service on heritage railroads.
 * GE three-power boxcab – tri-mode switcher locomotive model built in 1930, was also capable of operating as a battery locomotive. All retired and scrapped.

South Africa

 * The South African Class 38-000 is a 3 kV DC electro-diesel locomotive designed by Consortium under the leadership of Siemens and built by Union Carriage and Wagon (UCW) in Nigel, Gauteng, South Africa. Between November 1992 and 1993 fifty of these locomotives were placed in service by Spoornet, formerly the South African Railways (SAR) and later renamed Transnet Freight Rail (TFR). The diesel engine enables the locomotive to shunt on unelectrified sidings.

Tanzania

 * Stadler Euro Dual, proposed 25 kV 50 Hz AC overhead wires (Tanzania Standard Gauge Railway)

India
The Indian Railways WDAP-5 is a class of Electro-diesel locomotive that was developed in 2019 by Banaras Locomotive Works (BLW), Varanasi for Indian Railways. The model name stands for broad gauge (W), Diesel (D), AC Current (A), Passenger (P) and 5000 Horsepower(5). The locomotive can deliver 5000HP in electric mode and 4500HP in diesel mode. It was made to reduce the travel time of passenger trains which needed to change the electric locomotive with a diesel locomotive. However as of 2024, this locomotive does not have much practical use as 97% of Indian Railways has been electified. Only one of these were ever constructed and what happened to that locomotive remains unknown.

Hybrid locomotive

A specialized type of electro-diesel locomotive is the hybrid locomotive. Here, the electricity comes from a battery charged by the diesel engine rather than from an external supply. An example is the Green Goat switcher GG20B by Railpower Technologies, a subsidiary of R.J. Corman Railroad Group since 2009.

title: Electro-diesel locomotive


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Beard (female companion)

This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP. Moncrief 06:20, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Beard (female companion)
redirect to gay slang Exploding Boy 02:10, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep. -Seth Mahoney 23:47, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep since it gives a good place to list some examples whether documented or rumored.  Phr 05:32, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Documented examples of beards are great, but I think there has been some discussion elsewhere about whether or not it is okay to publish rumors and the decision was not really, except in exceptional circumstances (I'm sure there is a Wikipedia is not a rumor mill page somewhere around here). -Seth Mahoney 23:02, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know what "exceptional circumstances" mean. Rumors for the sake of gossip are one thing, but I believe Wikipedia should aim to explain the available theories of things that people are trying to understand, even when those theories can't be established as fact (as long as they aren't labelled as fact).  Right now, a heck of a lot of people are trying to figure out the Tom Cruise-Katie Holmes romance  as well as interpret various previous events in Cruise's career.  The term "beard" expresses a possible unifying explanation that's widely believed by many, so it deserves mention as such.
 * Oh wow. I think that people are generally afraid of ever mentioning Tom Cruise in connection with homosexuality ever on Wikipedia.  Just an FYI.  But yeah, I understand where you're coming from, and there is validity to your point.  What I'm saying is that certain rumors, for example those you'll find in the Daily Sun, belong in the appropriate articles, if they belong on Wikipedia at all - in the case of the example I just gave, they belong in the page, if there is one, for the Daily Sun.  But not every rumor deserves mention.  I'm not here to lay down the law on that, though - Wikipedia editing is a democratic process.  I'm just here to say that such edits might get deleted, and there might be some justification for that somewhere on the wiki.  -Seth Mahoney 19:18, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with beard (sexual), which is almost identical. Don't care which of the two stays, but one of them should. Grutness...  wha?  10:38, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, no reasons to delete. Well written stub. Megan1967 04:05, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. — Phil Welch 6 July 2005 14:35 (UTC)
 * KeepAstrotrain July 7, 2005 22:32 (UTC)
 * Strong keep - the article is about the topic, not the slang term. -- Karada 12:01, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep- no valid reason to delete that I can see. --Psyk0 12:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


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Aaron Allston

Aaron Dale Allston (December 8, 1960 – February 27, 2014) was an American game designer and author of many science fiction books, notably Star Wars novels. His works as a game designer include game supplements for role-playing games, several of which served to establish the basis for products and subsequent development of TSR's Dungeons & Dragons game setting Mystara. His later works as a novelist include those of the X-Wing series: Wraith Squadron, Iron Fist, Solo Command, Starfighters of Adumar, and Mercy Kill. He wrote two entries in the New Jedi Order series: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream and Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand. Allston wrote three of the nine Legacy of the Force novels: Betrayal, Exile, and Fury, and three of the nine Fate of the Jedi novels: Outcast, Backlash, and Conviction.

Early life and education
Allston was born December 8, 1960, in Corsicana, Texas, to Tom Dale Allston and Rose Binford Boehm. Allston moved all over Texas in his youth and graduated from high school in Denton. An avid fan of science fiction from an early age, by high school he was the secretary and reporter for his high school science fiction club. Allston moved to Austin in 1979 and attended the University of Texas.

Career
Allston was a circulation manager, assistant editor, and editor of Space Gamer magazine, and by 1983 was a full-time freelance game designer. He served as editor of Space Gamer from issues 52 (June 1982) to 65 (September/October 1983), and as editor of Fantasy Gamer for the first issue (August/September 1983) and co-editor of the second issue (December/January 1984). During Allston's tenure as editor, Space Gamer won the H.G. Wells Award for Best Professional Role-Playing Magazine in 1982. Allston authored the book Autoduel Champions in 1983, which crossed over Champions by Hero Games and Car Wars by Steve Jackson Games. Allston helped launch the Fantasy Gamer spinoff magazine. He co-wrote the computer game Savage Empire, which Game Player magazine named the Best PC Fantasy RPG in 1990. He authored the Rules Cyclopedia (1991), a revision and compilation for the Dungeons & Dragons game. He branched into fiction, and in the mid-1990s wrote five novels.

He began writing for the Star Wars X-Wing series in 1997, when the primary sequence writer Michael Stackpole could not handle the entire workload. Allston produced a new edition of Champions for Hero Games in 2002. In 2006, he launched The Legacy of the Force series with a hardcover entitled Betrayal.

In 2005, Allston made his directorial debut on the independent film Deadbacks, which he also wrote and produced. The film went into post-production but was never released.

Allston lived in Round Rock, Texas. For a short time, he worked for the Austin American-Statesman newspaper.

Health issues and death
In early April 2009 Allston had a heart attack and underwent an emergency quadruple bypass surgery, while on the book signing tour for Outcast, the first book in the Fate of the Jedi series.

On February 27, 2014, Allston collapsed during an appearance at VisionCon in Branson, Missouri, apparently from heart failure. He died later that day in Springfield, Missouri, at the age of 53.

Stand-alone titles

 * Web of Danger (1988)
 * Galatea in 2-D (1993)
 * Double Jeopardy (1994)
 * Thunder of the Captains (with H. Lisle) (1996)
 * Wrath of the Princes (with H. Lisle) (1997)

Doc Sidhe

 * Doc Sidhe (1995)
 * Sidhe-Devil (2001)

X-Wing

 * Wraith Squadron (1998)
 * Iron Fist (1998)
 * Solo Command (1999)
 * Starfighters of Adumar (1999)
 * Mercy Kill (2012)

The New Jedi Order

 * Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream (2002)
 * Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand (2002)

Legacy of the Force

 * Betrayal (2006)
 * Exile (2007)
 * Fury (2007)

Fate of the Jedi

 * Outcast (2009)
 * Backlash (2010)
 * Conviction (2011)

Terminator

 * Terminator 3 Terminator Dreams (2003)
 * Terminator Hunt (2004)

Role-playing games

 * The Circle and M.E.T.E. (1983)
 * Autoduel Champions (1983)
 * Lands of Mystery (1985)
 * Treasure Hunt (1986)
 * GAZ1: The Grand Duchy of Karameikos (1987)
 * Mythic Greece (Rolemaster) (1988)
 * Strike Force (1988)
 * GURPS Supers School of Hard Knocks (1989)
 * Dungeon Master's Design Kit (1988)
 * The Complete Fighter's Handbook (1989)
 * Dawn of the Emperors: Thyatis and Alphatia (1989)
 * Ninja Hero (1990)
 * Hollow World Campaign Set (1990)
 * Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia (1991)
 * Poor Wizard's Almanac & Book of Facts (1992)
 * Wrath of the Immortals (1992)
 * The Complete Ninja's Handbook (1995)
 * I, Tyrant (1996)
 * Champions, Fifth Edition (2002)

Short story anthologies

 * 2013 A Hero by Any Other Name (Short story anthology edited by Jean Rabe)

title: Aaron Allston


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fag hag

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP. Golbez 06:45, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Fag hag
covered better at gay slang Exploding Boy 02:12, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect only. Geogre 03:40, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - Gay slang provides a brief statement while Fag hag is a full explaination. It is a fairly common slur we should be able to explain. -Acjelen 03:44, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, cleanup, expand. The term is certainly notable enough to stand as its own article. -- BD2412 talk 03:44, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)
 * Keep, notable term.. often used on Will & Grace - Aaron Hill 04:06, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. I first heard the term in The Message by Grandmaster Flash and it is a fairly common term with currency outside the gay community. Capitalistroadster 05:13, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep and expand. This term is used quite often. JamesBurns 05:27, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, good article on widespread term, which is by no means always a slur. I use the term frequently, and have never intended it to be insulting, nor has anyone I applied to been insulted by it. --Angr/undefined 23:55, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Widely-used term worthy of its own article. Xoloz 06:55, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Perfectly notable article. Ambi 23:27, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep … G u y M … (soapbox) 01:26, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep -- Francs2000 | Talk 00:43, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * keep, you can hardly say it is covered better in the list of gay slang where it has a 1 line definition. A longer definition would be unjustified in such a dictionary list, so if the longer definition is worth reading then it has to be a separate entry.Sandpiper 15:56, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Move any additional material from gay slang to fag hag.  -Seth Mahoney 23:47, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fag hag


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Category:Capcom characters

This is a category for characters who have appeared in games published through Capcom.

title: Category:Capcom characters


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Zoe Akins

Zoe Byrd Akins (October 30, 1886 – October 29, 1958) was an American playwright, poet, and author. She won the 1935 Pulitzer Prize for drama for The Old Maid.

Early life
Zoe Byrd Akins was born in Humansville, Missouri, second of three children of Thomas Jasper and Sarah Elizabeth Green Akins. Her family was heavily involved with the Missouri Republican Party, and for several years her father served as the state party chairman. Through her mother, Akins was related George Washington and Duff Green. Her family moved to St. Louis, Missouri when Akins was in her early teens. She was sent to Monticello Seminary in Godfrey, Illinois for her education and later Hosmer Hall preparatory school in St. Louis. While at Hosmer Hall she was a classmate of poet Sara Teasdale, both graduating with the class of 1903. It was at Monticello Seminary that Akins wrote her first play, a parody of a Greek tragedy. Following graduation Akins began writing a series of plays, poetry and criticism for various magazines and newspapers as well as occasional acting roles in St. Louis area theatre productions.

Career and life

Her first major dramatic work was Papa, written in 1914. The comedy failed even though it greatly impressed both H.L. Mencken and George Jean Nathan, and she continued to write. She followed up with two other plays, The Magical City and Déclassée. The latter play, which starred Ethel Barrymore, was not only a great success but "something of a sensation, and her days of waiting were over." During this time several of her early plays were adapted for the screen. These adaptations were mostly failures, released as silent films in a time when the industry was transitioning to sound. While some "talkie" stars had notable roles in the films (Walter Pidgeon and a young Clark Gable), most of the films are now believed to be lost. In 1930, Akins had another great success with her play, The Greeks Had a Word for It, a comedy about three models in search of rich husbands

In the early 1930s, Akins became more active in film, writing several screenplays as well as continuing to sell the rights to plays such as The Greeks Had a Word for It (1930), which was adapted for the movies three times, in 1932 (as The Greeks Had a Word for Them), 1938 (as Three Blind Mice), and 1953 (How to Marry a Millionaire). Two highlights of this period were the films Sarah and Son (1930) and Morning Glory (1933), the latter remade as Stage Struck. Both films earned their respective female leads (Ruth Chatterton and Katharine Hepburn) Academy Award nominations for Best Actress (Hepburn won).

Akins did not pursue a screenwriting career beyond her early successes. In 1932, she married Hugo Rumbold (in the last year of his life) and, after several Hollywood films, she returned to writing plays and spending time with her family. She was rumored to be in a long-term relationship with Jobyna Howland until Howland's death in 1936. According to Anita Loos, the two squabbled often, "But such gibes actually held the key to their devotion." She was the great-aunt of actress Laurie Metcalf. She lived for a short time in Morrisonville, Illinois.

In 1935, she was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Drama for her dramatization of Edith Wharton's The Old Maid, a melodrama set in New York City and written in five episodes stretching across time from 1839 to 1854. The play was adapted for a 1939 film starring Bette Davis.

In 1936, Akins co-wrote the screenplay for Camille, adapted from Alexandre Dumas's play and novel, La dame aux camélias The film starred Greta Garbo, Robert Taylor, and Lionel Barrymore, and earned Garbo her third Oscar nomination.

Later life and legacy
Akins died in her sleep on the eve of her 72nd birthday, in 1958, in Los Angeles. She is buried in San Gabriel District Cemetery.

Akins archives is held in the collection of the Bancroft Library at the University of California, Berkeley.

Selected filmography

 * Déclassée (1925)
 * Her Private Life (1929)
 * Sarah and Son (1930)
 * Anybody's Woman (1930)
 * The Right to Love (1930)
 * Working Girls (1931)
 * The Greeks Had a Word for Them (1932)
 * Christopher Strong (1933)
 * Outcast Lady (1934)
 * Accused (1936)
 * Lady of Secrets (1936)
 * Camille (1936)
 * The Old Maid (1939)
 * Zaza (1939)

title: Zoe Akins


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Jõhvi

Jõhvi (Jewe) is a town in northeastern Estonia, and the administrative seat of Ida-Viru County and Jõhvi Parish. The town is located about 50 km west of the Estonia–Russia international border.

History
Jõhvi was first mentioned as a village in 1241 in Liber Census Daniae when it was ruled by Denmark. Historical names of Jõhvi were Gewi and Jewe. In the 13th century a church was built there, and Jõhvi became the centre of the local church parish.

On 1 May 1938, the government of Estonia upgraded the official status of Jõhvi from a borough to that of an independent town. During the period of Soviet administration (1944–1991), Jõhvi was administratively not a town, but a district of the city of Kohtla-Järve. In 2005, the town of Jõhvi was united with the parish of Jõhvi.

Demographics
During the period when Estonia was occupied by the Soviet Union, a significant influx of workers from other parts of the Soviet Union was initiated to support the expanding city of Kohtla-Järve, including the then district of Jõhvi. This influx resulted in Estonians becoming a minority in the area.

title: Jõhvi


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Wapusk National Park

Wapusk National Park (is Canada's 37th national park, established in 1996. The name comes from the Cree word for polar bear (wâpask).

Located on the shores of Hudson Bay in the Hudson Plains ecozone 45 km south of Churchill, its accessibility is limited due to its remote location and an effort to preserve the park. The park is home to Cape Churchill, which is renowned as the best location in the world to view and photograph wild polar bears. Cape Churchill is only accessible by helicopter or Tundra Buggy.

The park was the subject of a short film in 2011's National Parks Project, directed by Hubert Davis and scored by Kathleen Edwards, Matt Mays and Sam Roberts.

Overview
Established in 1996, Wapusk National Park is 11,475 square kilometres (4,430 sq mi) of protected diverse and remote wilderness, located in Northeast Manitoba along the coast of the Hudson Bay. Wapusk derives from the Cree word for "white bear", and as the meaning indicates, is a significant maternity denning area for the polar bear, Ursus maritimus. The park is also characterized by having a transitional zone between the three biomes of arctic tundra, marine, and boreal forest. It includes a large part of the Hudson Bay Lowlands, a subarctic region bordering Hudson Bay that is mostly muskeg and wet peatlands. Wapusk National Park lies on the traditional territories of many Indigenous communities such as the Cree of York Factory, Fox Lake, Sayisi-Dene, and Inuit First Nations. Native species like Caribou and polar bears are being heavily affected by climate change through warmer temperatures, ice and permafrost melting, and changing vegetation in the park. Tourism in this park is not very high but there is concern for the negative impacts increased tourism may cause. The geology of the area has many underlying limestone formations, and a past in fur trade. Glacial processes shape many of the habitats seen today. It is one of Canada's wildest and most remote landscapes.

In winter, the polar bears of Wapusk National Park come ashore as the ice on the Hudson Bay melts, waiting on the tundra until the water freezes again. Pregnant females remain ashore, sheltered in maternity dens within the peatlands in Wapusk, giving birth over the season.

Numerous birds are found in Wapusk National Park and it is a likely breeding area of the short-billed dowitcher.

In 2010, biologists affiliated with the American Museum of Natural History and City College of the City University of New York published a report in Canadian Field-Naturalist offering the first documented evidence that the temperamental grizzly bears are migrating into polar bear territory. Researchers found that seven grizzlies have been spotted in Wapusk National Park south of Churchill, between 2003 and 2008.

Size of the protected area and boundaries
Wapusk National Park shares its southwestern border with the Churchill Wildlife Management Area (WMA) which was established in 1978. Wapusk National Park itself was established to protect the area which is a unique transitional zone between three biomes and the existing strong biodiversity among plant and animal species. These three biomes include tundra, marine, and boreal. Wapusk National Park was created with future generations in mind, so they can enjoy the park and all its diversity. To ensure this goal is met the Ecological Integrity Monitoring Program (EIMP) builds baseline data to monitor climate change impacts, and the restoration of ecosystems. They work with a variety of external organizations including researchers, provincial governments, and indigenous communities to monitor human and natural change to strengthen resiliency and persistence within ecosystems.

Geography outline
The park was set up to protect the environment and the Cree traditions. It is a young landscape formed by erosion from the last glacial period, which forms many subarctic habitats. Evidence of this is seen from the glacial features like moraines, eskers and strand lines left by moving glaciers. This glaciation resulted in environments like far extending beaches and plains dipping towards Hudson Bay. The geography consists of coastal tundra habitats with coastal marshes, beach ridges and freshwater sedges which make up the habitats there. The climate here is subarctic and wet, having many rivers and bogs called "Muskeg" by the indigenous Cree people native to that area. In terms of ecology, Wapusk's location is part of the Hudson Plains ecozone.

Geology
The historical geology of the Wapusk National Park shows sequences of Palaeozoic aged rocks running northwest to southeast of the map. There are three formations that cover this area: The Severn River formation, Ewkan river formation and Attawapiskat formation. These are all limestone and Dolomite formations. Records of human occupation and resource extractions from Wapusk show the area the national park covers overlaps the indigenous communities of the Cree and Chipewyan indigenous communities.

People and trade
European settlements also occupied the area as early as 1619 and onwards. The location of the protected park was between two large trade centres, the York Factory and Prince of Wales Fort in 1684 and 1731. Trade relied on the fur found in those parts of Manitoba and lasted for 250 years. In later years,1940's and 1980's, the land was exploited by the military for rocket launch testing by the Churchill Research Range. One of the known historical events to have happened here was the Battle of Hudson's Bay.

Indigenous history
Indigenous communities have a strong history and a lasting relationship with the land that is now Wapusk National Park. Wapusk National Park is the traditional territory of the Cree of York Factory First Nation, Fox Lake First Nation, Sayisi-Dene First Nation, and Inuit. The Cree from York Factory relied on the rabbit, geese, bear, and caribou populations as their food sources. No parts of the animals were wasted as they used techniques like smoking, drying, or using the fat for cooking oil. When the caribou moved inland in the winter they would follow. Before industrialization, canoes were modes of transportation on the nearby network of rivers. European traders arrived to the traditional lands of York Factory First Nation in the 1600’s. First Nations shared their ecological knowledge with settlers, and the fur trade began. The Hudson Bay Company established roots in the area because the location was effective for shipping and transportation. 1910 was when Treaty 5 was signed, an agreement with Canada that interfered with traditional resource management defined by the distribution of harvesting and allowing time for resources to recover before the next exploitation.

Indigenous involvement in the management of Wapusk National Park
In 2008, "Voices from the Margins: The Muskekowuck Athinuwick/Cree People of Northern Ontario and the Management of Wabusk/Polar Bear" was published accounting stories of Indigenous involvement in the decision-making process about the management of polar bears in Wapusk National Park. The Inuit critiqued various proposed management strategies and changes to the national park, for it impacted their traditional practices. Other challenges for Indigenous participation in decision making processes for Wapusk National Park have included geographic isolation from decision-making facilities, and a lack of communication from stakeholders. The Wapusk National Park 2017 Management plan aims to foster greater participation between policy makers and local indigenous communities and incorporate valuable traditional ecological knowledge into management strategies to ensure prosperity for all.

Species and population trends
Wapusk National Park is home to a number of species, including animals and plants. The park shelters polar bears, birds, wolves, caribou, and many more. During the summer, Wapusk is known for their ponds, peat bogs, and small 6.5 foot trees that have remained standing for hundreds of years. The hot weather also attracts tourists with the bay that lies near the shoreline as visitors are able to explore the beaches. It is in the winter when an estimated thousand polar bears make their way through Cape Churchill to familiarize themselves with the cooler weather conditions. At Wapusk National Park, there can also be found over 250 rare bird species. Hundreds of thousands of both shorebirds and waterfowl birds nest here regularly. Other species of birds that can be spotted are great grey owls, stilt sandpipers, snow geese, arctic loons, Caspian terns, peregrine falcons, and much more. This park also draws people in due to the several species of plants that reside there. Over one thousand hundred of these species are maintained which is extremely difficult due to the icy conditions of the location. As previously mentioned, bog peat is a popular aspect of the park as about 27% of the grounds are covered in it. The warm weather during the summer allows for certain foods to grow that are also digestible for humans as well as other wildlife. This includes cranberries, crowberries, bearberries, blueberries, cloudberries, and raspberries. As winter arrives, the cold has an effect on the appearance of the park. Not only do the leaves on the trees change colour but the rest of the plants shift shades as well. Other species of plants that bloom at Wapusk are alpine azalea, common yarrow, wild rosemary, roundleaf orchis, cutleaf anemone, field wormwood, and fireweed.

Caribou are one of the most noticeable species at Wapusk National Park that have been steadily declining in population. This is proven from the data collected in 1994 that noted 500, 000 caribou compared to 2017 where only 288, 000 where reported. This data is based on the Qamanirjuaq herd which covers areas in Manitoba, Nunavut, Saskatchewan, and the Northwest Territories. There are a number of active threats against the population of caribou, the first being climate change. The rising hot temperatures are only threatening the cooler environment that they are built to live in. The act of wildfires have also played a role in the caribou decline. Habitat loss has been an important contributor as the human activities of mining, logging, and oil development have impacted caribou habitats. As for conservation efforts, Wapusk National Park is a protected area with limited human disruptions. They take matters in migration routes, calving grounds, and the winter habitats. Parks Canada teamed up with several forestry companies in 2004 to better protect and recover caribou population as they were listed under Threatened Species by the Species at Risk Act (SARA).

Climate change and habitat loss
Wapusk National Park is already being heavily affected by climate change and warming temperatures. The changing dates of sea-ice breakup, up to three weeks earlier than usual, caused by warming temperatures is leading to a decline in the conditions of polar bears who are having to come ashore earlier with less fat resources built up. This has negative impacts on reproduction in terms of litter size, cub mass, survival of dependent young, etc., and affects the overall abundance of polar bears. Tracking the numbers of polar bears is currently very important in these subarctic regions. Caribou are also being affected by the warming temperatures in the case of earlier snow melt, warmer temperatures during the winter and wildfires. These rising temperatures increase insect harassment on caribous. The caribous then exert more energy fleeing this harassment rather than feeding. Caribou feed primarily upon lichens. Climate change has resulted in decreased lichen biomass in arctic regions, a trend that is projected to continue. The increase in wildfires impact lichen biomass and cover, which take up to 75 years to recover from fires.

Climate change is also affecting the vegetation structure of subarctic ecosystems, which impacts the wildlife that depends on these ecosystems. Flooding and raising of bogs impact the polar bear habitat and the reductions in the space of arctic tundra due to permafrost melting has impacts on caribou. The Lesser Snow Geese, a keystone species, are rapidly increasing population wise and are destroying vegetation and soil conditions which is increasing the salinity of nearby bodies of water. This not only affects the aquatic community, but again, polar bears and caribou. Steps are currently being taken by Wapusk National Park to reduce the population and fix the damages done by the geese.

Tourism
Wapusk National Park does not receive many visitors, only around 150 per year. The visitors usually stay in the Churchill area and do not visit the park as access is limited to private tours via boat, helicopter, charted aircraft, over-snow/tundra vehicles and/or all-terrain vehicles.

New tourist activities are in the works after the signing of the Wapusk National Park Management Plan, but there is concern as tundra ecosystems are extremely sensitive to impacts, specifically, human trampling of tundra vegetation. Human activities in these areas must be heavily monitored. Lichens, caribou's main source of food, are very sensitive to impact and can all die in an area after only low levels of trampling. Increased tourism can create problems for the species living in Wapusk National Park that are already struggling from climate change and habitat loss.

Rivers

 * Broad River
 * Owl River

title: Wapusk National Park


text:
Nizhal Thangal

Nizhal Thangal (நிழல் தாங்கல்) (നിഴൽ താങ്കൽ) also called Inai Thangals) are secondary worship places of the Ayyavazhi, often smaller in size than Pathis, built per the instructions of Akilattirattu Ammanai. Cleanliness is strictly enforced.

Though the common people, mainly in early times call them as Narayanaswami koil or Narayanaswami pathi, the Ayyavazhi scriptures consider these centers distinct from The Pathis. They call these worship centers, which were not associated with the religious activities of Vaikundar, 'Inai Thangals'.

History
After the trial of Vaikundar with the king of Travancore, the followers built religious centers following his instructions to propagate his teachings which were called as Nizhal Thangal. Akilattirattu Ammanai call this as religious schools. The LMS reports too speak in abundance about these worship centers

Tamil is the official language of worship, and the object of worship is Lord Narayana with the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. Nizhal Thangals in Chettikudiyiruppu, Agastheeswaram, Paloor, Sundavilai, Vadalivilai, Kadambankulam and Pambankulam were established during the period of Vaikundar per Akilam. And after a large number of Thangals were established throughout India. There are more than 8000 worship centres throughout India

These Nizhal Thangals formed place in the socio-religious life of the people. All the people were brought together here irrespective of caste distinctions. The mode and formalities of worship were revolutionalised in these centers.

Architecture and Structure
Unlike Pathis this Thangals were of small size. Inside the Nizhal Thangals, no murti or idol is used. The Palliyarai of Thangals generally seems similar to Pathis. But inside, in most of the Thangals instead of raised pedestal, chairs were placed as asanas in which the saffron or silk cloths are wrapped-around. A garland made of rudraksha (string of rudraksha beads) is placed around the neck of the asana. Mirrors were placed behind. In front of these there will be two standing oil lamps(kuthu vilakku)made of brass, each placed on the either side of the asana.

In some of the Thangals there will be inner corridors as pathis to circumambulate the Palliyarai. A hall is attached to this palliyarai for the worshippers. In some of the Thangals there are flag masts, Vahanas and temple cars etc.

Administration
Some of the thangals were built and maintained by single individuals, some by various organisations and some built as town or village-commons. Since Ayyavazhi is not an organised religion, thangals are not officially controlled by Swamithoppe, though it was considered as the religious headquarters. It was considered ritualistic by the Ayyavazhi followers to lay foundation stones for new Thangals by someone from Payyan dynasty. It seems that the scriptures too give a high status to them in such matters. A survey from the year 2004 states that there are more than 8000 Nizhal Thangals throughout South India mostly in Tamil Nadu and Kerala.

Some Nizhal Thangals serve as community centers, with facilities to cook for large crowds of people; others serve as schools for the community and some as both.

Prayer and Rituals
Though the Ayyavazhi scriptures says about a three-time-worship in common for Nizal Thangals and Pathis, most of the Nizhal Thangals use to conduct Panividais (poojas) only twice per day. The three time worship includes Ukappadippu along with Pothippu at the dawn and at the dusk and the Ucchippadippu in the noon.

But most of the Nizhal Thangals conduct this Ucchippadippu on every Sundays seven times collectively, considering one time per day of a week. On that days Anna Dharmam (charity on food) is conducted. Some Thangals use conduct this Ucchippadippu on Fridays too. While at few Thangals, which were run by single individuals, the Panividai is conducted only once per day in the evening.

Pal vaippu
This  'Pai vaippu'  is a festival in which the rice boiled in milk and used to serve as grew. At present every worship centers of Ayyavazhi has this practice at least once in a month, while in some other Thangals it was conducted once in a week. During this Pal vaippu cooked rice is also served in addition to this 'Pal' as an action of charity. During this days as ritualistic actions, the 'Periya Ukappadippu' (the extended Ukappadippu), ' Thana Niraivu Vasakam ' and 'Vazappadippu' is also sung in the evening as additional form of Prayers during this days.

Festivals
The main form festival which is conducted in Nizhal Thangals are The Thiru Eadu Vasippu and the Vaikunda Avatharam. The Thiru-Eadu Vasippu was conducted for several days while the Vaikunda Avatharam celebration is mostly for a day of time in Nizhal Thangals. Some Thangals use to conduct Annual festivals too.

Thiru-Eadu Vasippu
This Thiru Eadu Vasippu, the ritual reading and expatiation of the Holy book Akilam, is an important religious observance of Ayyavazhi. During this days the morning Panivadais are conducted as usual, while in the evening Akilam the scripture of Ayyavazhi is read melodiously by two talented persons and another person use to explain the read verses in a prose form. At the end of every days Anna Dharmam was conducted. This festival was conducted in several Nizhal Thangals for seventeen days (as in Pathis) and the whole content is read-finished. While some other thangals conduct this for three, five, seven, or ten days term reading selected part from the scripture.

Some thangals conduct this Thiru-Eadu Vasippu along with the Annual festivals while on some other centers annual festivals are celebrated separately. During that days ' Vahanam Eduppu ' is conducted in which the asanam is carried on Vahanas (vehicles) as processions by the followers.

Vaikunda Avatharam
This was the only festival in Ayyavazhi, which is celebrated at a time throughout all the worship centers across the country. During this festival on 19th masi (3 March) the day before the Ayya Vaikunda Avataram, the Nizhal Thangals used to conduct one day festival for a grand scale along with Anna Dharmam throughout the day. On the next day 20th of the Tamil month masi, (4 March) all the followers used to visit Panchappathis and so most of the Thangals remain closed while some thangals used to continue the festival as the previous day.

title: Nizhal Thangal


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pronoun game

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP. Golbez 06:45, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Pronoun game
this might occur with some people, but the title of this article is nonsense, as is most of the article itself. Exploding Boy 02:18, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete the concept might merit mention on an article dealing with Les/Bi/Gay issues, but I don't think it needs its own article. --Xcali 03:56, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - NN --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 15:15, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per Xcali. --Angr/undefined 23:52, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, the title appears to be appropriate. It is what people call this activity.  See this, and this, and this and this and this and this and this and ... .  The activity seems to be a significant one, moreover.  The problem with this article is the third paragraph, which makes this appear to be a party game rather than a psychological game, not the title.  And there really isn't a place suitable for merging this.  None of gender-specific pronoun, gender-neutral pronoun, singular they, and gender-neutral language are wholly suitable, for example, since they are about pronouns rather than about the concealment of sexual orientation in conversation.  Situational sexual behavior is not about conversation and coming out is not about concealment.  Keep, with Move (retaining the redirect) to concealment of sexual orientation in conversation if a more descriptive title is desperately desired. Uncle G 05:20, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)
 * Keep rewrite, don't move. Ambi 23:28, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep It's well referenced (and done so again by Uncle G), but the title could be made less specific while retaining the GBLF origin, benefits and purpose. … G u y M … (soapbox) 03:19, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. — Phil Welch 16:03, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep or move Seems like important information.  Perhaps the gender-neutral pronouns entry may be a good home.  Outright deletion would be a shame.  posted by user: 143.88.86.146
 * Keep with a rewrite. JamesBurns 11:10, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep but rewrite required. --Lejend 12:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep but also add the point that people who are noncloseted queers or who are or straight may also speak like this so as to make a point that a person's sexual orientation shouldn't be assumed and doesn't have to be a big deal. --Triangular 10:06, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


text: User talk:84.67.60.223

title: User talk:84.67.60.223


text:
Talk:Matt Slick

Untitled

 * Talk:Matt Slick/archive1

Neutrality and Factual Accuracy tag
Okay. Can we get a two listings, Diane, of what in that section you consider non-neutral, and what in that section you consider factually inaccurate? That tag isn't supposed to be a permanent feature of a page, but rather a notice that editors are working toward fixing the section. And we can't work toward fixing the section if it isn't clear what the problems are. --Hyperbole 02:42, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the tag should be removed if no one is willing to list the alleged inaccuracies and non-neutral items. Urbie 15:16, 3 January 2006 (UTC)Urbie

I think we should get into the problem teachings of Matt Slick specifically and directly, honestly and forthright instead of allowing further skirting around the issue.

The problem Christians find with Matt's teachings is that he believes in calvinism, which is the pride of one believing in being premade for salvation, that is, regenerated or saved or given faith first before they can believe, while others not. Would God do that? Would God premake people for hell and not give them the choice? Why would God ask us to receive the cross if He saves us first? Obviously, this puffs up self to consider oneself premade for salvation and creates passivity to lower one's conscience as a robot premade for salvation.

There is also the false teaching of thinking that tongues means gibberish babble. But where in the Bible do we find this? Thus, it is man made. The gift of tongues are languages and spoken to show others can believe as well, even as a sign to Israel. Pentecostals' tongues that is so popular today again lowers the conscience and induces passivity for control. This is the common theme of a man who seeks to control men.

And there is the problem of amillenialism, claiming the time we are in now is the 1000 year millennial peace. But if this is so why does Rev. 20.3 say in the 1000 years the nations will no longer decieved, thus no longer war? Again, this deadens the spirit. And where has an army of 200 million amassed in the middle east (Rev. 9.16) and 1/3 of the people of the earth died in so great a Tribulation (Rev. 9.18)?

 * Well firstly, I don't think anyone even cared on the talk page yet about calvanism or predestination at all, and secondly, i'm reasonably certain predestination doesn't work that way. You'd think if it was the way you put it, then Calvinists never would of thought up something so wrong in the first place. Also, you haven't cited any statements of Matt, so as far as I know, you might be talking about the beliefs of somebody compleatly different. Homestarmy 21:56, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The evangelicals (citation?)
Since February, or maybe earlier, there has been a tag for a citation needed right after the statement which says that critics also include other evangelical Christians disagreeing with his methods or approach. If there is no citation in a certain amount of time, shouldn't the statement be removed? OneGyT /T|C 14:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't participate in this page much, but since I saw it, i've wondered about that too, who disagrees with this guy's website? I use it all the time and i've never seen much of a problem Biblically speaking. Homestarmy 16:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

 * It's not a question of whether Evangelicals disagree with Slick's theology; it's a question of whether they are critical of his methods and approach. Such criticism of Slick by Evangelicals is plentiful on several discussion boards, and thus the statement is true; it's finding a source that's tricky, since there is an ongoing debate over whether using a discussion board in such a way would qualify it as a primary or a secondary source (verifying the existence of criticism versus risking elevating the criticism to the appearance of endorsement by Wikipedia) --Hyperbole 00:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Hmm, that would pose a bit of a problem :/. Technically, I can understand some people thinking this guy's evangelistic method isn't quite correct, (I've read some of his witnessing situations myself, and there's certainly a difference in evangelistic technique than what im familiar with) but I don't know how it's necessarily deserving of critics blasting him or something. Homestarmy 13:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

 * The fact that Slick has faced criticism from members of every non-Evangelical group under the sun is apparently considered acceptable by everyone without a citation to such criticism (since, again, such criticism is rarely formal). The fact that Slick's methods and general conduct has led to criticism by select Evangelicals should be equally obvious, and, in my opinion, should stand without citation.  It would stretch credulity to suggest that, among the thousands of Evangelicals Slick interacts with, there aren't Evangelicals who think Slick's methods drive more people from Christianity than attract them to it; I've met more than a few, myself.  Removing that sentence would lead to the POV appearance that the only people who disagree with Slick's methods and approach are cultists; that's untrue and non-neutral. --Hyperbole 19:12, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Slick himself has asked in his critique of this article, "who are these evangelical Christians?" or something to that effect, which is probably the reason the notice was added. That is also why I asked. OneGyT /T|C 00:02, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I was under the impression that a citation was needed for the entire paragraph about Slick's critics, not just the statement about evangelical critics. Urbie

 * I suppose that might be. OneGyT /T|C 00:05, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Let there be open disclosure. What does Matt Slick teach? Calvinism-pride of believing in being premade for salvation, while others premade for hell; Amillennialism-claiming the millennial peace is now with 6 million Jews killed in WWII, even though Rev. 20.3 says the nations will no longer be deceived in the millennium and in the Great Tribulation, there will be a machine army of 200 million in the middle east (9.16) and 1/3 of the people of earth will die (v.18); Pentecostalism gibberish babble-yet we must ask where is this psychic gibberish (revived heresy of montanism) & babble mediums found in the Scriptures?

Deletion of unsourced negative material
I had never heard of Mr. Slick before reading this article, but I have twice deleted poorly sourced negative material about Slick's moderation of his organization's discussion forums in accord with the strict policy laid out in WP:BLP. It seems to me that there are some people who feel slighted in some past encounters and are taking their grievances to the Wikipedia. In addition, this is not encyclopedic material. The published criticism of Slick by Cowan is fine (and could even be expanded on -- what does Cowan say about CARM in that article?), but personal squabbles have no place here. Slick can run his own discussion forums however he wants. --Flex 12:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Criticism of Slick in connection with his forums is well-documented all over the Internet; the difficulty lies in convincing Slick's supporters of the reliability of the criticism, since none of it is published in scholarly journals. It has long been my position that criticism is always a reliable source for claims of the existence of itself (not, of course, for the claims made in that criticism), but Slick advocates continue to remove references to that criticism.  Nonetheless, the criticism is constant, verifiable, and notable; it is acknowledged at CARM (Slick has articles on the Universalist conflict and the AARM exodus, and even keeps a "hate mail" section running in his newsletters); and removing it creates a hopelessly POV article that reads like an endorsement of Matt Slick.  --Hyperbole 16:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem now is with WP:BLP, these controversies must be very well documented inside the article, as opposed to the marginal documentation of some of it there is now. Homestarmy 16:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:BLP forbids speculative negative rumors about living people. The existence of criticism of Slick's conduct is easily verified and acknowledged by Slick himself.  There's nothing speculative about it; we're not running afoul of the policy.  --Hyperbole 17:02, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, while we as editors know that it's verified somewhere, readers won't know that, they'll just see two paragraphs, one with no reference, and one with a reference only from Slick which doesn't present the other sides supposed perspective very well. Homestarmy 17:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I've historically put about eight citations to criticism of Slick (check back through the history) in that paragraph, and Slick supporters have insisted that, since none of them come from scholarly journals or mainstream news, they are unacceptable sources, and have removed them. It's a cheap tactic to try to create an article that seems like criticism of Slick, a public figure, does not exist, when in fact it is widespread.  Similarly, Slick supporters have determined that Slick's depiction of the Universalist conflict is a viable source, but the various descriptions by Universalists are not.  I agree that the controversy section needs significant work, but whitewashing it is not the answer.  --Hyperbole 17:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

...To all concerned: Hyperbole and friends, are in violation of wikipedia guidelines, rules and have been for over a year on this article, as members of an "atheist website" with very few members, they are seeking to promote their forums by using this article for the "propaganda and advertisment" of discussion forums including various anonymous users of about 300 people that have libeled the members of the CARM ministry. Should we link all "atheist" websites that have difficulties with Christians, to this article as well? It is obvious, as supported by documentation and pasted here in the past, to the "libelous" atheist website that even admins of wikipedia have been ignored or reverted when removing the advertisments from this article. It will be addressed through the foundation as instructed to the complete disregard of wikipedia rules. The numerous attempts to work within the wikipedia guidelines has been ignored, time and time again by this group with their agenda to promote their propaganda and advertisments. When the rules are posted here by editors in the past, they are ignored by the "atheist" members seeking to control the content of the article. Enough is enough. We will appeal this to Jim Wales himself, as he has instructed should there be any more use of this article and biography to libel a living person with unsourced material is to be removed immediately. The use of the CARM article for the purpose of advertisment of "propaganda" unreliable sourced material will also be addressed.Diane S 22:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well then, "Slick supporters" will just have to deal with WP:BLP, because neither scholarly journals nor mainstream news probably care at all about CARM, but these paragraphs must be referenced somehow. What sources exactly are you trying to use, we can go over them and figure out which ones actually fit WP:V, because limiting things to just "scholarly journals" and "mainstream news" isn't in policy at all. Homestarmy 17:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

My broader point here is this: does this criticism even belong in the Wikipedia (again, see WP:NOT)? I have yet to see any evidence that would make this more than a bone a few people have to pick with Slick. That Slick doesn't allow total freedom of speech on his own discussion forums is not notable. Most website/blog owners don't allow it either, but that point does not seem particularly relevant on their pages any more than it does here. (It might be with regard to someone primarily known for advocacy of freedom of speech, but I don't think that characterizes Slick.) Only after the question of the suitability is answered should we address the quality of sources. --Flex 18:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

....You are correct Flex, this article has been used by a group of members to an "atheist" propaganda website....We are taking the necessary steps to correct this situation. But since the group have outnumbered the other editors here, they have continued to insert their propaganda and advertisement into this article. I can provide all the documentation necessary.Diane S 22:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

 * It would belong if it's notable, and considering CARM itself mentions the critcism quite a good bit in many of its articles, I would say that yes, the criticism does belong in this article, as long as it is well-verified. I wasn't actually here for whatever fight people had over this article, (I found it after reading the article Matt put on his site concerning his wiki bio, and by then, the discussion had died down) but it sounded to me like alot of people wanted to use references which fell well below WP:V like blogs and stuff, but that there were some references somewhere. Homestarmy 18:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me rephrase: Why does such a squabble merit inclusion in the Wikipedia? Why is it important or notable to the world at large? Again, Slick can run his forums however he pleases, and even if he and his opponents have addressed the issue in an online article or three and have strong feelings about the matter, I fail to see any objective basis for the importance of this matter and thus for its inclusion. --Flex 18:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC) "
 * On it's own, the controversy isn't notable, for instance, if one started a Controversies of CARM article, there probably wouldn't be enough importance there for it to be an article. But since the subject of the article is notable, and the controversy concerns the subject, and is verifiable, (though I assume the quality of the verification is in dispute) then it is notable enough to be inside the Matt Slick article. Matt seemed to think it was notable anyway, since he wrote some articles concerning the controversy, and he does seem to be willing to respond to his critics. Homestarmy 18:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I still don't see this small-scale quibbling on a topic that doesn't concern Slick's or CARM's main interests as being worth mention here. If the criticism were about his thought and works, that would be different. This is about how he runs his own discussion boards. That is simply not notable in an encyclopedia article. Nothing criminal or newsworthy occurred. Slick's character is not called into question just because he censored his own discussion boards. Find me just one published mention of it anywhere. (I'll wager doughnuts to dollars that there isn't a single mention of it in the mainstream media, Skeptical Inquirerer, Reason magazine, Atheism Today [ok, I made that one up], etc.) Again, just because Slick has written online about it (along with a few others), that doesn't mean it belongs in the Wikipedia article about him. I await your evidence. --Flex 21:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Don't look at me, Hyperbole is the one who says he has the references :/. Homestarmy 00:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I took a stab at a compromise. The current version mentions the incident but does not violate WP:BLP in my opinion. --Flex 15:37, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There are actually two discrete incidents; the 2001 mass censorship of Universalism and the 2004 purge of most atheists on the site. I think its important to note that Slick is notable only because he has a large religion website; his obscure book and limited-audience radio show would probably not confer notability on him by themselves.  Thus, this article really exists only because of Slick's website, and the vast majority of readers of the article will be coming from that website: that makes the history of controversy on the website particularly notable.  --Hyperbole 15:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I was in fact making some changes to account for the two different incidents (which I just read about in other WP articles) when you made your edit. The new version seems better to me (and hopefully more accurate), though we need a citation for that AARM sentence. --Flex 16:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Ok, I have studied the newest and latest rules and it is time this be addressed and dealt with to the proper authorities, we also will be in touch with administration concerning this article that is in violation of all the rules to living person Biography, including the links, unreliable sources given, discussion boards linked of anonymous individuals attacking the person by name as noted "propaganda websites." The critics violate the "source" rules, and the biography itself is completely in violation to the contraversial sections of this and the CARM articles. I will attempt to get administration of wikipedia here to enforce the rules, according to Jim Wales, he is to be contacted directly, but in the mean time, any editor is directed to "remove" immediately such content.

"Remove unsourced or poorly sourced controversial" material

"Editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source. In cases where the information is derogatory and poorly sourced or unsourced, this kind of edit is an exception to the three-revert rule. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia, including user and talk pages. Administrators may enforce the removal of such material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked. See the blocking policy and Wikipedia:Libel.

Administrators encountering biographies that are unsourced and controversial in tone, where there is no NPOV version to revert to, should delete the article without discussion (see WP:CSD criterion G10 for more details).

Jimmy Wales has said:

"I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." [2] He considers "no" information to be better than "speculative" information and reemphasizes the need for sensitivity:'' "Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia."'' [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:BLP

......I suggest that any, all editors to this article pa;y strict attention to the "libelous" warnings, the article is in violation, as noted in the link pasted, we will email directly the foundation as instructed, should the links and propaganda websites be put back into this article....Diane S 21:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You're arriving a month after we've had the discussion on bringing this article into concert with WP:BLP. Flex deleted all the critical material that was poorly sourced, and what remains is fully sourced.  Do not misread WP:BLP as some kind of policy that criticism of a public figure must be excluded from an article if that figure is alive.  --Hyperbole 23:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Please list here the "verifiable" links and sources. You must show the persons actually exist, have been published, and are not libeling the person of the biography. Again, per Jim, and the foundation, there is no 3 revert rule for libel or personal attacks on a living person. You must show, a verifiable source, put it here.

Homestarmy and Flex above have made several points that have been ignored. Show us that a a r m links are verifiable, reliable sources, never to be used to attack a living person in articles.Diane S 04:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * At no point in this article is AARM used as a source; therefore, Wikipedia does not repeat any claims that might be libelous; therefore, the article does not run afoul of WP:BLP. As an external link, however, AARM is invaluable, since it is one of the few places that contain discussion of Slick which are not actively censored by Slick or his agents.  --Hyperbole 04:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Hyperbole has correctly stated our policy on this matter. -Will Beback 04:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

 * He is not, and I am reporting this to the foundation. You may not post libelous, unverifiable sources in links or as sources.Diane S 04:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Will Beback, are you aware, that hyperbole is linking to a blog/discussion forum where he participates, purposed to slander/libel Matt Slick? I would like you to show us the rule, guideline that permits linking to an editors blog/discussion forum, by the editor, to attack the person in the biography? He is claiming it is a place where Slick cannot control what is stated? Think about that? Is it to a "prominent" group that may be verified?Diane S 04:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Why do I see athiest posters from anti-CARM sites editing a biography of a man they openly detest? JBaker45 06:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Exactly, it has been going on for over a year, obvious that atheists/liberals are using wikipedia as a "soap box" and advertisement for their POV. It is time this article be properly edited to a NPOV.Diane S 06:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is not an advertising service. Promotional articles about yourself, your friends, your company or products; or articles written as part of a marketing or promotional campaign, may be deleted in accordance with our deletion policies. For more information, see Wikipedia:Spam." AARM posters and members, spamming the CARM and Matt slick articles with their advertisements to atheist website forums.Diane S 07:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This has already been exhaustively covered - there is a community consensus that Wikipedia's mention of AARM does not constitute spam. In fact, the article AARM survived an AfD  (although it was later merged into John W. Ratcliff).  The Wikipedia community didn't consider AARM spam then, and doesn't now.  What it is, is an external link consistent with WP:EL that presents one of multiple POVs on Slick.  --Hyperbole 07:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Very easy to answer, because the atheists/liberal editors were not truthful to their agenda and continue, search the history to see what happened. Anyone with a bit of common sense can see the manipulation going on by the atheist/liberal editors here to promote their website. The last admin here, had never looked to the CARM ministry content and was led to believe, by the atheists/liberals here, it was simply a group of discussion boards. The admin here admitted to not even understanding it is a ministry organization completely separate from "discussion boards." He never checked what CARM is about, though another admin did edit and attempt to clean up this mess explaining to him that the aarm links were completely inappropriate.

The former admin that removed christian editors consistently, made comments about CARM and aarm as if they were the same in content, he never checked the libelous content on the aarm forums, never applied the rules that forums should not be linked or sourced. Because he was led to believe that CARM was simply discussion boards, again, he said it several times. If he had been informed to checking the documentation of the content of aarm, it would have been immediately removed, as per the rules that unverifiable, discussion boards are not to be used as links or sources especially if used to libel, attack a "living person." Very plainly written in the rules....Aarm was included because false information was placed here by those pushing their agenda.....and continues. Again, why are you an atheist, that "detests" Matt Slick, a member of antiCARM websites here to constantly insert your links and opinions in this article. Someone here is "obsessed" with their agenda and it is becoming more obvious. Sure, link the garbage to Ratcliff, it is his troll website where he is not libeled, it has no purpose to be here, does not apply at all to CARM ministries and certainly violates all wikipedia rules.Diane S 18:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

"This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard." Shall we list all the libelous content from the aarm forums? This article is violating the wikipedia rules to including discussion/blogs that are completely about attacking the person with slander/libel.Diane S 18:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:BLP refers to potentially libelous material within a Wikipedia article. None appears in this article.  WP:EL says that links representing each notable POV should be represented; AARM is one such link.  If you think AARM contains libel (and, frankly, it doesn't), then take it up with AARM.  An administrator has already ruled that I have interpreted these policies correctly; WP:BLP is not a license to censor any sourced information you find unpleasant.  --Hyperbole 19:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Links to "prominent" sources, and certainly not to discussion/blogs, once again, you are violating the rules. No discussion forums/blogs in links, no libelous material, no links to "Joe blow" anyone that sets up a website. A discussion board of atheists that hate christians, is not a "prominent" website link. Sorry, you are wrong.Jimmy Wales has said:

"I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." [2] He considers "no" information to be better than "speculative" information and reemphasizes the need for sensitivity:'' "Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia."''Diane S 21:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Diane, quoting the same portion of WP:BLP to this Talk page does nothing but clutter it. Trust me, I've read the policy many times.  As I said, it's a policy about poorly sourced claims made in Wikipedia articles.  It is not a policy that prohibits external links that do not agree with the POV of the subject.  An administrator has already made a ruling that I am correctly interpreting the policies.  --Hyperbole 22:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Nope, the administrator does not have the authority to permit "libelous" links, if there is even a slight chance of libelous content, or copyrighted material on the link you have posted, it is to be removed immediately, and there is no 3RR for "libelous" websites. If the administrator wants to see the libelous posts on the forum, I can begin to post them here for all to see. You had better do your research once again. You have not given a "reliable" verifiable source for your edits on criticism, and the links you have provided, are not verifiable, but discussion boards that also contain "libelous" materials. The administrator does not know what aarm is, I would bet he has not read they are simply forums libeling the "living person" in this biography, he has not checked the websites linked or would not permit the content, and was not aware of the "libelous" material on the external links posted. Or perhaps, the administrator is also permitting the use of this article for propaganda for other reasons. If so, the administrator will have to provide the documentation here, with his/her full name, giving permission, for propagandist to link to a "libelous" discussion forum, that is strictly forbidden in the rules and we can then send this information to the foundation for their review. Discussion forums, blogs are NOT permitted in links even if they are not libelous, in this case two rules broken, the aarm forums, are a "progaganda" atheist website, not a prominent website of a verifiable source and "libelous" in content. Once again, you are wrong.Diane S 02:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There is a "Slight chance" of a copyright violation in any external link in any article on wikipedia, but we aren't responsible for it. (Unless some ridiculous law is passed making us responsible) I have read about libel from this forum however, and I gotta say, forums generally aren't great things to link to in the first place unless their like the main subject of the article or something. AARM is wikilinked, so it should properly go there. The details of the forum itself aren't elaborated on extensively here anyway. However, this notion that blogs and forums are never permitted is really quite wrong, as they are certainly allowed if the article actually discusses them in some detail if I remember the wording correctly. Homestarmy 02:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Article concerns
There appears to have been a great deal of discussion over some issues with the article. We recieved an email to WP:OTRS complaining of violations to our reliable sources and external link policies. I noticed that we have two forums used as references and one references is a geocities page - these would all appear to violate our reliable sources policy. Unless someone has a reason they feel these sources should be considered reliable, I'll remove the statements attributed to them. I'm also concerned that some of the external links are of poor quality and don't seem to qualify under any of our guidelines. The CARM website is linked multiple times for some reason and there are several low quality sites and a forum. Unless some case can be made that these qualify as legitimate external links, these will be removed as well. The above discussions appear to have gotten a bit off topic, so please try to limit yourself to an explanation of why these items do or do not follow Wikipedia policy. Thanks. Shell babelfish 10:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Some personal web pages are used as sources in the article, but not to assert facts about Slick - only to assert their own existence. There has been a general consensus on this article that any source is reliable enough to assert the existence of itself.
 * This whole argument has been problematic because Slick is so low on the notability scale - he hasn't generated any major press whatsoever - and he really is best known for being a webmaster and an administrator on a forum. Therefore, all the information we have on him is either A) self-reported; or B) comes from opposing webmasters and forums - generally non-notable sources.  So there's a difficult issue here; because Slick is unusually controversial for his level of notability, to limit the article to information from category A would create an unacceptably POV article, and to include information from category B requres using sources that would not generally be considered reliable for a more public figure.  Were we to leave it all out, we'd have no article (which I'm not sure isn't the best solution).  --Hyperbole 18:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Tempest in a teapot?
Hyperbole said "Were we to leave it all out, we'd have no article (which I'm not sure isn't the best solution)."

I have to say deleting the article may be the most appropriate response. Matt Slick does not really meet the guidelines of WP:BIO, and if we apply the "10-year test," I'm honestly not sure if anyone in the world is going to know (or be concerned) about the controversy regarding the operation of his webforum. I'm given to understand that he can be a nice guy, and all that, but being a "nice guy" just isn't enough to write an encyclopedia article on.

I don't want to just jump into an AfD without some idea of consensus from the community however. Any opinions from other editors? Justin Eiler 18:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm with you. Anecdotally, I hadn't heard of him before reading this article, and I haven't heard of him since. Seems like WP:VAIN or inverse-vanity (which here amounts to Slicks opponents seeking publicity for perceived but non-notable wrongs). --Flex 18:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't quite agree with this, there are thousands of biographies on Wikipedia that nobody will likely remember in 10 years, but that doesn't mean none of them are notable. The radio show is probably something that helps his case as well, and that Cowen person mentioning him helps as well. I suspect that once the request in the section above to remove bad references is compleated, there won't be many problems here. (though the article will likely be a bit on the short side.) Homestarmy 18:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

 * A show broadcast on one AM station and over the net does not help his case all that much, IMHO. Perhaps if he were on a number of stations in the northwestern US, that would be something, but not every pastor or DJ belongs here. What's the estimated audience of his program? Is his book a best-seller (at least in its niche market)? --Flex 19:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * An AFD isn't the only option. The material could also be merged with CARM, since that is his source of notability. There are other cases where the webamster's article has been merge with his website, for example Jim Robinson merged to Freerepublic. -Will Beback 19:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That would seem to be a sensible option since notability outside of the website is rather dubious and even with it, I'm not certain the WP:BIO criteria are met. Shell babelfish 20:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Much of this information is already redundant with the CARM article, and the edit wars on the two pages have focused on almost identical content. Slick's book appears in only six libraries worldwide according to WorldCat  and has an Amazon sales rank over one million.    I do not think Slick is notable outside the context of CARM, and that a merge/redirect to that article would probably be the best solution.  --Hyperbole 20:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

 * A merge seems like a good idea. When that is done, we can take another look at their combined notability if necessary. --Flex 21:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

A merge sounds good--I've posted a notice on Talk:Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (the main article is currently protected due to an invasion of suspected sock/meatpuppets). Justin Eiler 21:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll second the merge. As far as historical significance, Mr. Slick is intrinsically intertwined with the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, so there appears to be little need for two articles. ZincOrbie 21:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I've got the proposed merge here. Folks, the first thing to look at on this (IMHO) is to make sure it abides by WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR. If all those are satisfied, I'm happy that the draft is, at least, a good start. Justin Eiler 05:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this the new battleground?
Since the CARM article lockup, there appears to be some pushing and shoving on this article now. In the "Criticism" section, I deleted the notation and referenced an AARM commentary where Ratcliff personally gives his reasons for launching the website. This was reverted by Flex and is now being called an unreliable reference? Ratcliff's own words from his own website is unreliable? Perhaps I am missing something. Either the note needs to be removed or the link needs to be reinstated. ZincOrbie 00:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The reference in question is this:, just in case anyone wants to know. (I had to go look for it since it wasn't re-inserted, the fact tag was simply removed.)Homestarmy 01:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Now, on to my opinion, generally, supposed comments by people which are only backed up by a forum post aren't generally seen as highly reliable sources, since alone, they aren't too good at confirming easily that the person who posted the post actually is the person who's identity is asserted. If there was something written somewhere else in a non-forum and more secured environment from Ratcliff saying this same thing, (Or specifically stating that he posts in that particular forum with that handle) then readers wouldn't have to be figuring out if they can confirm the person's identity there or not. It might seem like nitpicking, but when identities can't be easily confirmed like in a forum post, uninvolved readers not familiar with the subject may be left really wondering just how certain the identity of a forum poster really is. Homestarmy 01:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for responding, Homestarmy. Your opinion is reasonable for most circumstances, but not here. Much or most of the comments and theology of Matt Slick are derived from his website, the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. Because it is Slick's site there is little doubt of the reliability of comments posted there under his name. The same applies to John Ratcliff. Being it is Ratcliff's site, and the link in question has been there for two years without deletion by the webmaster (in fact, the thread originates in a section where only Ratcliff and administrators have access), it is more than a reasonable assurance that the comments are directly from him. ZincOrbie 01:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * While it might be hosted on his own site, surely he has some web page of his own or something that confirms his forum identity? Matt's site isn't a forum, so the sort of problems with identity there don't apply quite as much. Homestarmy 02:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I understand you now. I was flustered by what I perceived as selective reverting. I corrected a link for Matt Slick's "homepage" (which is now "calvinistcorner") without a revert. But my attempted fix for the AARM citation tag was reverted. Seriously, I am neutral in the battle that's been going on; I frequent both forums. I just wanted to make sure links and references were accurate for both parties. ZincOrbie 02:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm even more neutral: I don't use (and have never used) either forum, and I'd never heard of Slick or Ratcliff before or since apart from the WP. I seek only a neutral, well-sourced article. Forum posts fail as reliable sources, but that doesn't mean that the statement in question should be deleted (it doesn't seem controversial, after all) -- just that a reliable source should be located if possible. --Flex 04:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it appears that the Slick and CARM articles will be merged when the latter's protection is lifted, so the whole point may be moot as a result. ZincOrbie 04:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Matt Slick