text:
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Argyrosargyrou

Case Opened on June 5, 2005

Case Closed on 20:04, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Please do not edit this page directly unless you wish to become a participant in this request. (All participants are subject to Arbitration Committee decisions, and the ArbCom will consider each participant's role in the dispute.) Comments are very welcome on the Talk page, and will be read, in full. Evidence, no matter who can provide it, is very welcome at /Evidence. Evidence is more useful than comments.

Arbitrators will be working on a proposed decision at /Proposed decision.

Involved parties

 * ChrisO
 * Argyrosargyrou

Statement by ChrisO
Since joining Wikipedia on 16 May 2005, User:Argyrosargyrou (talk / contribs) has mounted a literally daily campaign of edit warring on articles related to Cyprus. This has involved the creation of wildly POV articles, multiple recreations of said articles following votes for deletion, POV forks of protected articles, a complete disregard for the 3RR, persistent refusal to debate contentious changes, refusal to compromise with other editors, personal abuse of other editors, the systematic use of open proxies to evade temporary blocks and the large-scale use of sockpuppets to pursue revert wars and influence votes for deletion.

In the relatively short time that he has been editing, he has shown absolutely no willingness to engage with the community in any way other than blunt opposition and uncompromising partisanship. His willingness to make illegal use of open proxies indicates that he is willing to go to extremes to force his POV into Wikipedia articles. He has been informed of the conduct and content standards expected of editors but clearly has no intention of abiding by them.

My own involvement in the ongoing conflict over the articles in question comprised an attempt to rewrite parts of Cyprus reunification referendum, 2004 to comply with the NPOV requirement (which Argyrosargyrou promptly reverted) and votes for the deletion of his POV forks. I have blocked him once for 24 hours following violations of the 3RR and have systematically blocked open proxies as he has used them in sequence to evade his block.

It is worth mentioning that his involvement with Wikipedia seems to be part of his wider anti-Turkish campaign on the Internet - see e.g.,.

Detailed evidence with diffs is at Requests for arbitration/Argyrosargyrou/Evidence.

Statement by Argyrosargyrou
Please limit your statement to 500 words

ChrisO is a Turkish apologist that wants to rewrite history by equating the Greek Cypriot victims of Turkish perpetrated human rights violations and warcrimes with the brutal and savage aggressors. Every time I try to include the historical facts and figures which are accepted by the European Court of Human Rights and the United Nations such as the issues of misisng persons, the enclaved Greek Cypriots in Karpassia, the destruction of Cyprus Churches and other cultural heritage by Turkey, the illegality of the Turkish occupation regime and the pseudo-state in occupied Cyprus, the Greek Cypriot refugees property rights and the gross human rights violations contained in the text of the Anann plan, ChrisO and other Turkish apologists that he is in league with keep vandalising the pages and removing my contributions and rewriting or reverting the pages using unfounded Turkish propaganda in order to exonerate Turkey of all blame and cast the Greek Cypriot victims as villains. The pages edited or reverted by ChrisO use terminology intend to give legality to the Turkish occupation regime which is both illegal because it violates UN resolutions 541(1983) and 550(1984) which declared the pseudo-state in occupied Cyprus "legally invalid" and call on all UN members not to facilitate it in any way, and is also insulting to Greek Cypriots. ChrisO along with the other Turkish apologists he is in league with voted for the deletion of the page I created (with full references given) on the "Hellenic Genocide" which makes him a holocaust denier. Even though the vote of the RFD was overwhelmingly in favour of keeping the pages the page was still detested in violating of Wikipedia rules. It is is truly sickening that Wikipedia would go to such lengths to deny the genocide of 4 million Greeks whose ancestors had lived in Asia-Minor for over 3000 years. On top of that even though there was an RFD on the page on the non-existent "Turkish Cypriot Genocide" (which is not even referred to by Turkey) which was overwhelmingly in favour of deleting that page the page was still kept despite the vote. It is clear that Wikipedia is being used in order to promote unacceptable Turkish propaganda against Greeks.--Argyrosargyrou 15:51, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinions on hearing this matter (5/0/0/0)

 * Accept - rapid fire revert warring by both parties (see for example) needs to be stopped ASAP.  (This means an injunction will be forthcoming.) -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:43, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)
 * For the record, the 3RR does not apply to reverting edits by blocked users: "Reverts: All edits by a banned user made since their ban, regardless of their merits, may be reverted by any user. As the banned user is not authorised to make those edits, there is no need to discuss them prior to reversion." (Banning policy) -- ChrisO 22:15, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, that's sort of fuzzy. I agree it'd make sense, but the penalty for 3RR violations is a block, which does not imply a ban (bans can only be made by Jimbo or the ArbCom at current), if I recall correctly. --W(t) 00:28, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)
 * Accept Fred Bauder 22:10, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
 * Accept to consider issues concerning Argyrosargyrou only. Ambi 02:03, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Concur with Ambi. →Raul654 02:32, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * Concur with Ambi. Neutralitytalk 07:40, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * Recuse I was heavily involved in Votes for Undeletion. Nohat 23:18, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Temporary injunction (none)
=Final decision= All numbering based on /Proposed decision (vote counts and comments are there as well)

Advocacy
1) Wikipedia is not a forum for issue advocacy, see What Wikipedia is not.

 * Passed 5-0

Sockpuppets
2) While a Wikipedia user may edit under more than one account, misuse of Sockpuppets is not allowed.

 * Passed 5-0

Disruptive users
1) Disruptive users may be banned for a limited period from Wikipedia.

 * Passed 5-0

Argyrosargyrou
2) has since May 7, 2005 focused his attention on articles which involve the Cyprus dispute, see early edits:, . As he speaks of restoring a section, it is likely he edited the article previously as an anonymous editor.

 * Passed 5-0

Argyrosargyrou's perspective
3) takes a Greek nationalist point of view, expressing the effect of his editing as removing Turkish bias, see  and its comment, "E.A stop trying to sabotage this page and turn it into a Turkish propaganda site"

 * Passed 5-0

E.A
3.1) has been opposed by, a Turkish Cypriot, see  comment "Again re-instated neutral" and.

 * Passed 5-0

ChrisO
3.2) contested Argyrosargyrou's edits to Cyprus reunification referendum, 2004: Argyrosargyrou's first edit. Later edit warring:, , , ,  and using anon ip.

 * Passed 5-0

Snchduer
3.3 has played peacemaking role at times, attempting to advance compromise versions, see Talk:Civilian casualties and displacements during the Cyprus conflict. Personal attack on Snchduer by Argyrosargyrou

 * Passed 5-0

Parallel articles (POV forks)
4) has created several articles which are parallel to existing articles such as "Cyprus Issue" (deleted copyright violation, must be administrator to view). This article was deleted as a copyright violation, being a copy of this release of the Greek Cypriot government's Press and Information Office, see original post of copyright violation, viewable only by Wikipedia administrators. Another article which was created in this way Turkish Invasion of Cyprus, created while Cyprus dispute was protected survived Votes for deletion. See also Cyprus problem and recreation of deleted article "Hellenic Genocide" (viewable only by Wikipedia administrators), see Votes_for_deletion/Hellenic_Genocide

 * Passed 5-0

Sockpuppets
5) has created a number of sockpuppets to advocate his positions. They are likely to include, , , , , ,  and.

 * Passed 5-0

Community reaction
6) Wikipedia editors are aware that sometimes adds factual information and links to important resources, but his positive contributions are far outweighed by persistent aggressive point of view advocacy, see Votes for deletion/The pogroms in Istanbul. The net result is that due to "s activities viewed as a whole, whatever positive contributions he makes are of little significance or worth as compared to the disruption and prejudice which result from his activities.

 * Passed 5-0

Argyrosargyrou banned
1.1) and any sockpuppet he may create is banned from Wikipedia for six months.

 * Passed 5-0

Argyrosargyrou sockpuppets banned
2) shall edit under the username "Argyrosargyrou" and shall not create any others.

 * Passed 5-0

Article ban
3) and any sockpuppet he may create is banned from all articles relating to Cyprus for six months.  To start after the successful completion of any other ban.

 * Passed 5-0

Outlawed
1) Any edit made during the period of his ban by or any user or anonymous editor reasonably believed to be Argyrosargyrou may be reverted by any editor of Wikipedia without limit.

 * Passed 5-0

Editing during ban
2) Should attempt to edit Wikipedia anonymously or with any new user account during his ban, the account he uses may be blocked indefinitely (if practical) by any administrator including those who have previously been in conflict with him. Each such block shall reset the ban.
 * Passed 5-0


text:
Derek Laud

Derek George Henry Laud (born 9 August 1964) is a British banker, author, journalist, broadcaster and visiting professor. He has other wide business interests, including as Adviser to Lord Glendonbrook, the former Chairman of Channel Four and owner of BMI airlines. Laud was one of the lead speakers at the Financial Times (FT) Global Wealth Summit in London and spoke about Diversity and Inclusion in the wealth management sector.

He is the Chairman of the Foundation Board of Lucy Cavendish College at the University of Cambridge. He also Chairs the North American Committee for Cambridge. He has been an accredited journalist and has written on social and political affairs, travel and tennis.

Laud is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. He is Pro Chancellor at London South Bank University and visiting professor in the Faculty of Law and Social Sciences. He is a former political lobbyist, with specialist knowledge of the financial services regulatory sector. Laud is a partner in the private banking sector and clients include ultra high net worth individuals. He is also Senior Adviser at Stern & Co, a Rothschild and Goldsmith family wealth management company. He currently sits on the board of the Overseas Territories and is executive director. Laud has been a political adviser and professional speechwriter.

Laud is co-founder and executive director of the New City Initiative, a think tank for the finance sector. He is also a partner, partnership secretary, Director of the advisory board, and Director of Global Corporate Affairs at wealth management company Stanhope Capital LLP. Laud was the first black member of the Conservative Monday Club and was the first black master of foxhounds in the United Kingdom. He was also a contestant on the 2005 series of the British reality television show Big Brother.

Early life
Derek Laud was born on 9 August 1964 in Chelsea, London. He was educated at Oxford University and the University of Cambridge. He played university tennis. He holds degrees and awards including an MA and M.Sc. (with Distinctions) and is an Honorary Fellow at Cambridge University and Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts (FRSA).

Politics
Laud was asked by David Cameron, Leader of the Conservative Party, and Francis Maude, Conservative Party chairman, to be the party's candidate for Mayor of London. He declined and Boris Johnson was subsequently chosen.

He was the first special adviser appointed to the House of Lords Rural Economy Group, where members included the Duke of Westminster (for whom he wrote speeches), the Earl of Radnor, and Lord Vincent.

Laud was briefly a member of the Conservative Monday Club. In October 1984, he produced a policy paper under the auspices of the club's Immigration and Race Relations Committee titled "The Law, Order and Race Relations". He considered himself on the liberal wing of the club, and resigned following disagreements about apartheid South Africa. He later wrote a paper on how to apply cultural sanctions on the regime and was a vocal critic of the British government and its apparent lack of interest in dismantling apartheid.

Laud subsequently became a researcher and special adviser, working for Conservative Members of Parliament and government ministers in the mid to late 1980s. He also worked as an advisor to Sir Gordon Downey, the former Auditor General, Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, and Chairman of the Personal Investment Authority. He was Private Secretary to Lord Rees, Chief Secretary to the Treasury and Minister for Trade. He also acted as a researcher for Sir Spencer Perceval, the Solicitor-General.

In the second half of the 1980s, he became an aide and speechwriter for then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. During this period, Laud also contributed to speeches for other leading Conservative politicians, including Alan Clark and Michael Heseltine. Laud was a campaign aide for then Prime Minister John Major in 1990 and the 1992 general election campaign.

In the 1997 general election, Laud was selected as Conservative parliamentary candidate for Tottenham, a constituency with a large non-white population that had been represented by black Labour MPs since 1987, but stepped down shortly before the election, citing "business reasons". The Daily Telegraph reported that Laud had withdrawn his candidacy after being convicted of drink driving in the United States. Three people in a car struck by Laud suffered minor physical injuries.

In May 2019 Laud stood for the Liberal Democrats in Witney for election to West Oxfordshire District Council, as a protest against the Windrush scandal. He was a strong critic of prime minister Theresa May, writing in the Financial Times that she was 'characterless, incompetent and even her best would never be good enough'.

Business
In the late 1980s Laud was a consultant for Strategy Network International (SNI), a lobbying company with clients in the mining and minerals sector in Southern Africa. The firm had links to UNITA, the Angolan armed opposition group. He headed the financial regulatory arm of the business. He recommended the recruitment of business partner and Conservative MP Michael Colvin as an adviser. Laud sat on the advisory board of Sadlers Wells, chaired by Ian Hay Davison, the CEO of Lloyd's of London.

During the late 1990s, Laud was headhunted into private equity by Sir John Beckwith, and was a director of companies owned and controlled by the Pacific Group. The Group had substantial investments in wealth management, through River and Mercantile, and Thames River Capital. Other investments included healthcare, Education (Laud chaired the Board of the Ravenstone House Group of Schools) gyms, sport and outdoor media, and owners of a model agency.

In 1992, Laud co-founded the lobbying company Ludgate Laud with Michael Colvin. In 1996 Laud acquired part of Ludgate Laud, then with an annual fee income of around £500,000 and with clients such as Johnson and Johnson, British Steel and the Institute of Actuaries, the Personal Investment Authority and Takecare PLC.

He is a partner, partnership secretary, director of the advisory board, and Director of Corporate Affairs at wealth management company Stanhope Capital LLP.

Laud is also co-founder and the executive director of New City Initiative, a think tank concerned with the independent banking sector. He is a banker in the wealth management sector and holds various other directorships.

Writing
In 2015 Laud published The Problem With Immigrants through political publishing house Biteback, and he is a contributing writer to the Financial Times, The Independent, and The Daily Maverick. He has extensive tennis knowledge, and has been a regular writer at the Wimbledon Championships since 2010. Laud has recently turned to songwriting. His first song, 'Over My Shoulder' with singer Carletheia, was released in September 2022, and within two months had 45,000 downloads on Spotify.

Big Brother
In 2005, Laud was a contestant on the sixth series of the British reality television series Big Brother, in which a number of contestants live in an isolated house trying to avoid being evicted by the public. He was the tenth person to be evicted from the Big Brother House after losing in a head-to-head with Eugene Sully.

Other
Laud appeared on a charity edition of the television quiz show Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? on 17 September 2005, partnering Edwina Currie. Laud appeared on the BBC television discussion programme Question Time in November 2005. He makes regular TV and radio broadcasts. He is also a specialist writer on tennis. He is selective about the TV shows he takes part in, describing most of them as a 'degrading shouting matches with little or no intellectual credibility'.

Personal life
An enthusiastic fox hunter, Laud was made Master of Foxhounds for the New Forest Hunt in 1999, becoming the first black master of foxhounds in the United Kingdom. He lives between the Cotswolds and Knightsbridge in London.

Laud is an advocate for the gambling addiction charity GamCare and the dog protection charity the Dogs Trust, the latter of which was his chosen charity when he appeared on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? with former government minister Edwina Currie.''

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Derek Laud


text:
User:R6MaY89

nothing to see here.

title: User:R6MaY89


text:
User talk:Cswrye

Eb 3.0 article
I noticed you have listed the Web 3.0 category I created for deletion. The Web 3.0 article has already disappeared. What happened to it? Peter Campbell Talk! 11:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC).

I checked the deletion logs - its was a speedy delete. I have requested that this be reconsidered here. You may wish add your opinion Peter Campbell Talk! 22:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

IPA2: Article for Deletion
Hi, Cswrye! I just logged in and noticed that my article is tagged as AfD. I read the comments and I think it is tagged for personal reasons of the AfD initiator. Would you pls leave your comment? As the author, I do not see myself the right person to give comments. I really appreciate your opinion, regardless of what you decide. Thanx! -DrMoslehi 11:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC+3:30)

Hii
Hi - reply posted on the NPA personality theory talk page. How are you? - D-Katana 30 September 2006, 00:10 (UTC)

Thank you
I just wanted to say thank you for leaving the definition as is. This and many other terms/words have made dance instruction very difficult due to there misusage. I'm not an english lit. professor so I'm more than happy to have someone correct my typo's as I'm more than certain they are plentiful. However, history in some areas is clear while others it is vague. An example would be: the macarena...you lived during the era of this dance, most likely did this dance, but do you know it's history? Most likely no, so that would require research. The Who, what, when, where, why, and how is something popular culture doesn't really care about. It's just a fad. The aftermath is that others have to go against the grain because few take the time to research and ultimately we sound like fools because for every one of us there are ten thousand saying something different. This medium is a powerful educational tool to help straighten out many things long taught wrong. Forrest Outman of Tampa Bay, Florida USA 19:07, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

User cat guidelines
Hi there! If you're serious about this proposal you should definitely advertise it to get feedback on it. At the moment there doesn't appear to be any substantial response other than your own. Since Wikipedia guidelines must be based upon consensus, you will need some outsider opinion. Yours,  > R a d i a n t <  13:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's a reasonable solution. Thanks.  > R a d i a n t <  15:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Swing/Lindy Hop Dance Moves: Wikipedia vs. Wikibooks
Hey Cswrye, I have a question: What do you think about moving the most (if not all) of the swing/lindy hop dance move articles to the Swing Dancing article on Wikibooks? I think PlainJane may have suggested something similar (though less sweeping) a few months back. The reasons would be: Essentially I'm coming around to: if we can't source it, but it's good info - it should probably be moved to Wikibooks. Of course there are some things (e.g. Lindy hop today) that are virtually unsourcable, but also far more than a "How to" article. I'm not sure what to do about those yet, but I think moving the instructional pages off Wikipedia and into more appropriate hands is the first step. Any opinion?--Will.i.am 23:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) We will always run into the "uncited info" problem on Wikipedia with every dance move article.
 * 2) Many of the dance moves just have step by step instructions in them anyway, and most will never get more information (excepting something like the Swingout which can have information on how the step evolved).
 * 3) Wikibooks is made for "How to" articles. And although it also says "no original research", I haven't seen a single reference or in-line note used and the policy seems much less strict.
 * 4) We can still have one "List of dance moves" article, linked in the appropriate Wikipedia articles, that points to the Wikibook entries.
 * 5) It would cut down on the number of "bad" articles that people like you and I police, and help us focus on what articles really should be kept in the 'Pedia and expanded.
 * Excellent! Unfortunately I too rarely spend time on Wikibooks, but it seems like a convenient repository for things like Dance moves, which we'd like to clean up (on Wikipedia) without throwing away quite yet.  (Quite frankly, I'm dubious of how useful a text account of a dance move is anyway.  Have you ever tried to follow some of those directions?  Yikes.)  Anyway, thanks for the opinion, and yell if I go to far with something you think should stay.--Will.i.am 04:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete away! Here's a tenative todo list for the remaining articles in the category (unless you have other ideas for them):
 * 1) Unfortunately most of Aerial should probably move to Wikibooks, which will leave it pretty bare.
 * 2) Per your suggestion, move Swingout and Aerial to the Lindy Hop category.
 * 3) All of Charleston has been copied to Wikibooks, but one of us should essentially blank the page and write a stub so there's something there. Know anything about the history of Charleston or its culture?  I don't ....
 * 4) Apache should be transwikied entirely. Have you heard it called this much?  Perhaps after transwikification we can create a redirect from Apache to Texas Tommy, whose page isn't nearly as bad as the other dance move pages.--Will.i.am 10:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Merging the Charleston articles is a great idea.--Will.i.am 21:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I saw that removal of the merge tag. Sans discussion too, which I thought was particularly abrasive.  Dance moves are strange because the same exact motion can be used in salsa, lindy, west coast, you name it, but it has a different name (and possibly even different "history") in each case - all undocumented, of course.--Will.i.am 18:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

My information is verifiable
I do not put down anything that I will not stand behind. I know that thousands view this daily and many things I write may come as a suprise. I do this because A: all my information is legitimate and can be backed with historical documentation...albeit rare and unknown to most, except historians and B: There has been for sometime more misinformation and speculation than fact available online. I haven't taken the time to write down all my information sources...I most likely will publish a book for this and for educational purposed a dvd set in the future. This type of documention of so much information is VERY time consuming. That is the reason I added my personal information to my signature so if anyone doubts it I'll be easy to track down. Sorry I don't have more time...I'm stretched too thin as is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dancefusion (talk • contribs).

Articles for Deletion: Anthony M. Benis and NPA personality theory
Articles that you have been involved in editing, Anthony M. Benis and NPA personality theory, have been listed at Articles for deletion/Anthony M. Benis. Please look there to see why this is, if you are interested in whether it should be deleted. Thank you. --Psychonaut 06:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:PSY
Feel free to drop a note whenever you tag an article and maybe we can get a real discussion going about ratings? It crosses my mind that it might be an idea to tag article with a provisional rating (and a note on the tag to that effect)? Or would that be a bad idea? --Zeraeph 23:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Did u get my message
Did you get my message reference the changes I made? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.79.37.118 (talk • contribs).

NPA personality theory
Hey, thanks for the message! User:Hoary was much less happy with the post than you were, so I tried to clean it up as much as I could -- I think the version you read might have been much more reasonable than the one he did.

Yeah, I did some looking through the history of WP:GAC, and did find that it was promoted (off the top of my head, by User:Srikeit, but not guarantees on that one) on 29 May this year. That doesn't show up in any searches, though, presumably because the page wasn't indexed in that time. Thanks also for the background knowledge on this, by the way.

I'm really tired, time to get back to bed. :) Daveydw ee b ( chat/patch ) 21:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Mailbox Alert
Chad, time to check your email. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.188.117.70 (talk • contribs).

Assessment on RC page
Hello, I saw your recent assessment mark on Talk:Re-evaluation_Counseling. I'm curious - how does that get judged, and what effect does it have, if any? Thanks in advance for your help! MarkThomas 18:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation on my talk page. I suppose what I was wondering is if you as a christian are influenced by your background in that in your assessment of something like co-counselling, which I am aware some fundamentalist christian organisations would view as anti-christian since it does not place belief in God at the centre of it's philosophy. Looking at some of your other assessments though it appears you are more influenced by what you consider to be part of mainstream psychology/psychiatry? Not meaning to be pejorative about your motives, just curious where you are coming from, and what the scope is to alter it - do people get into tussles about how these things should be rated? MarkThomas 22:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Low-importance?
I have noted that in Talk Anti-psychiatry article you inserted the phrase: "This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale." (Doesn’t the fact that 200,000 people are being electro-shocked each year and that millions of healthy children are drugged with psychiatric drugs is remarkable?)

I wonder if this is your opinion or if the rating has been consensual? —Cesar Tort 17:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Improvements to the Psychology portal
Hi, I'm working on trying to get Portal:Psychology up to Featured portal status. Any tips you can offer on how to improve it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Rfrisbietalk 16:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If you're interested in adding selected articles, pictures, psychologists, etc., I can help out with any questions you might have on how to do it. If not, that's fine too. There's always another article assessment to do. ;-) Rfrisbietalk 19:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

RE:hoax tag
Whoops! must've over looked the external links section before placing the tag, sorry. Storm05 19:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I just found your reply message
I too do not mean to come off as harsh. I simply felt it was my duty as one of the few higher educated dancers to finally correct some long misunderstood areas of dance culture. This medium I felt was the best to help have a broad based impact on general dance education. I have edited so far jitterbug, swing dance, east coast swing, added eastern swing, and just tonight revamped collegiate shag. I do not remember if I checked Foxtrot yet, but that one is usually way off so I better as well as quickstep. And for the record I respect everyone out there trying to make a difference, I commend you for you work and encourage you to keep learning, growing, and sharing. Thanks, --Forrest Outman of Tampa Bay, Florida USA 06:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

User category nominations
Thanks for nominating all those user categories. I've looked through the categories many times, and most of those are all categories that I've wanted to delete or rename myself but never had the guts to do it! I'll go back through and put in my votes for them later, but I'll probably be supporting most of them. —Cswrye 22:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the "vote of confidence" : )
 * I finished the first and second "waves". I'm about half-way done, I think. (There are some rather large renames that I'm not looking forward to tagging : )

Anyway, hope you're having a great day : ) - jc37 14:51, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a quick note: Due to the current length of the page, I think several nominations may have been overlooked (some with only 2 comments). While you are obviously welcome to comment as much or as little as you wish, I just wanted to mention that (since I just noticed you were online : ) - jc37 17:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

 * It looked like the majority of the user categories have a pretty clear consensus to go with your nomination, so I didn't think there was much point in my going through all of them just to add "Delete per nom". So if I didn't vote on one, you can probably just assume that I support it. I am trying to vote on the controversial ones, but I probably overlooked some while I was scanning through the list (or I may have just forgotten to back to some of them). If there are any in particular that you want me to look at, feel free to point them out to me. —Cswrye 17:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I think that's been pretty much the situation with most commenters. See User talk:Mike Selinker, for what is hopefully a better explanation. - jc37 17:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Lindy Hop Wikiproject?
So... I've been thinking about this again. What do you think of a Lindy Hop Wikiproject? At first I thought "what's the point? It'll just be Cswrye and me." But then I was very inspired by the Ballet Wikiproject, and some other small projects with only a few active members.

PROs:
 * It would provide a forum for Lindy Hop stuff besides the Lindy Hop talk page for things we want to be consistent across all the pages (e.g. capitalization of Lindy Hop).
 * I have a tenative To Do list in by brain, but it would be nice to have a public laundry list than anyone can add to, or look at to say, "hey, I can do that during my lunch break" and cross it off.
 * I REALLY like the way the Ballet Wikiproject lists what each user can contribute (e.g., a subpage of all the members references and who has them, who has access to photos, etc.)
 * I also like how they have a list of "active" and "participating" members (i.e. people who don't add consistently, but that you could go to for some fresh eyes).

CONs:
 * Having to write and upkeep another page.

You've seen this come up a few times now, what do you think? (you can add pros and cons to this list too, they're just all I could think of).--Will.i.am 19:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, perhaps I'll start with a more detailed To Do list in my userspace, but invite you (or anyone else) to add to the list, comment on it, or work on any of its items. If it does turn out to be helpful or necessary to do the Wikiproject thing then we can always switch it over.--Will.i.am 23:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Disco
Sounds good to me. If there's info on disco dance then it could be moved to its own article. Cheers, Fang Aili talk 16:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know much about disco either. I'm cool with whatever at this point. --Fang Aili talk 01:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

List of colleges and universities in California
Hi Cswrye. You changed my entry on List of colleges and universities in California as being spam. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. The state of California classifies Pacific Western University just how I entered it on the list. Further, because of the confusion surrounding the classifications by the California Bureau of Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education institutions, I added an explanation and link on the list so that others may properly categorize such institutions. Listing California Bureau of Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education institutions as Two-year institutions when in fact they are not exposes Wikipedia to liability. (Not that you did this, but) listing California Bureau of Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education institutions as unaccredited institution when in fact they are not exposes Wikipedia to liability. I hope you reconsider your change to my entry on List of colleges and universities in California. Thanks.-- Jreferee 20:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply. You placed Pacific Western University under the two-year institution section.  Pacific Western University is not a two-year institution.  It is a correspondece school where there is no defined time to obtaining a degree.  For example, a PhD degree takes about nine months.  California Bureau of Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education (BPPVE) institutions are unique in that respect and should have their own section on the List of colleges and universities in California page.  If you really want to break it down, look at the bottom of this page and you will see the six categories:
 * BPPVE Approved Institutions - Degree
 * BPPVE Approved Institutions - Non-Degree
 * BPPVE Approved Institutions - Non-WASC Regionally Accredited (CEC §94905)
 * BPPVE Registered Institutions
 * BPPVE Religious Exempt Institutions
 * BPPVE Approved Institutions - Title 38 (Veterans)
 * Rather than being a two-year institution, Pacific Western University is a California BPPVE Approved Institutions - Degree. Pacific Western University should be listed under such a heading on the List of colleges and universities in California page or under a heading of BPPVE, which is what I chose to do.-- Jreferee 23:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Asssessment of James McClelland
I've changed the assessment of McClelland to Mid. This guy was actually quite influential in increased attention of neural network and connectionism in psychology and cognitive sciences. By the way, thanks for following up all of those assessments. Your assessments are normally spot on. --Comaze 01:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Grin
this is kinda cool, isn't it? (I especially smiled that during the same edit, while "dating" became "engaged to", the category "Single Wikipedians" was removed : ) - jc37 09:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for noticing; I honestly didn't think that anyone would pay attention to that! Of course, I'm very excited about the whole thing. (And there's no category for engaged Wikipedians or else I would have changed to that category instead of just getting rid of one. :) ) —Cswrye 05:12, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, Congratulations from me, and I do wish you both all the best : ) - jc37 04:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks and noted
Thanks for the work you're doing completing all the WPPsychology templates I've been adding! I've noted your correction to the templates and will do them that way from here on. Aleta 20:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you
For your advice and for helping to make zombietime presentable. Zombiefan 19:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Psychology question
I started to evaluate psychology articles for the project a few days ago. Well, the next day I saw that you had corrected a few of my assessments. When I looked around at them and other info I found, I saw that there was more to the assessing process than just changing the template on the talk page. What exactly is the process of evaluating an article? I would like to know because I believe that this is one of the best ways for me to contribute to Wikipedia. Thanks!--Cassmus 04:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the reply. I'll get started again. What you described on my talk page isn't too different from what I was doing before. I'm glad to help.--Cassmus 08:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

featured article assessment
Are you the one who has done the "featured article assessment" to the article on La Bayadere?

If so, where is it that you discuss with others how to go about rating an article? Are you the only one that does it? Can anyone do it? can these "grades" be changed?

Im asking this because I am having difficulty understanding how an article on one of the most important ballets in the classical repertory can be given a "B". Where can one find what the specific breakdown is as to why the reasons that the article get the grades they get. Was the article on La Bayadere judged based on its importance to the dance project as a whole or the way in which it follows wikipedia guidelines, etc.?

Thanks!!! :) --Mrlopez2681 02:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Rating the ToK
Hi. I'm trying to get members of the Psychology Project to get together and rate the both the quality and importance of the Tree of Knowledge System. Hope you're interested. Have a great day! EPM 19:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Greetings
I am sent you message some time ago about the wiki project dance rating system, and I recieved no response. Did you recieve my message, or perhaps overlook it by accident? If so, please read my message sent to from me, :)

Thank you! Mrlopez2681 22:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Request for peer review
The article Clinical psychology has just been listed for peer review. You are invited to lend your editing eyes to see if it needs any modifications, great or small, before it is submitted to the Featured Article review. Then head on over to the peer review page and add your comments, if you are so inspired. Thank you!! Psykhosis 20:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Age category
Hello! If you are receiving this message, that means that your user page is in a specific year category. Per a recent user-category per deletion, all specific year categories are to be deleted. If you wish to continue using year categories, you have two options: If you wish, you may do both. Hopefully, this change in categorization will be quick and painless. Happy editing! --An automated message from MessedRobot 12:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Using an age group category, such as Category:Wikipedians in their 30s
 * Using a decade category, such as Category:Wikipedians born in the 1970s.

Reparative Therapy
Do you know anything about Reparative therapy? It is highly politized issue and we wanted to know what the official viewpoint of psychology.Joshuajohanson 05:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Methodism project
It occurred to me that there is not now a functional group dealing with articles related to Methodism. I have thus created a proposal at WikiProject Council/Proposals for a group which might deal with such content. If you are interested, please feel free to indicate as much there. Thank you. John Carter 17:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Image:TreveccaNazareneUniversityLogo.gif
Hello Cswrye, an automated process has found an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, such as fair use. The image (Image:TreveccaNazareneUniversityLogo.gif) was found at the following location: User:Cswrye. This image or media will be removed per statement number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media will be replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg, so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. The image that was replaced will not be automatically deleted, but it could be deleted at a later date. Articles using the same image should not be affected by my edits. I ask you to please not re-add the image to your userpage and could consider finding a replacement image licensed under either the Creative Commons or GFDL license or released to the public domain. Thanks for your attention and cooperation. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 04:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:OlivetNazareneUniversityLogo.gif)
Thanks for uploading Image:OlivetNazareneUniversityLogo.gif. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Articles for deletion/Jumpswing (2nd nomination)
Since you have edited Lindy Hop articles in Wikipedia, I would like to invite you to the Articles for deletion/Jumpswing (2nd nomination). panda 15:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Minnesota Lindy
An article that you have been involved in editing, Minnesota Lindy, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you. —Christian Campbell 09:25, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Nashville photog needed for Wikinews
Any photographers (and by that, I mean anyone with a digital camera) that can make it to Nashville this Sunday at 6 pm, to photograph the final show of Jump5?

Details here: http://nashville.craigslist.org/crg/505941578.html

Let me know! -- Zanimum (talk) 18:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Importance scale
I see you were involved a while ago in the psychology article importance scale. Can you tell me please who and how makes these assessments? I've asked on the psychology project page but the whole project seems pretty moribund. I've been a bit puzzled by some assessments I've seen and was wondering if it was just individual editors with perhaps an exaggerated sense of the importance of the particular articles they write. Fainites barley 12:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Cswyre. Can I assume then that assessments should be left to the team and not just put in by the authors? Fainites barley 21:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. I wondered - because I've come across a couple of articles where the assement of 'high importance' has been put in by fond authors for obscure topics or utterly unnotable unvalidated therapies. Also anomolies where attachment disorder, which is a fairly inchoate term is 'high' yet reactive attachment disorder which is a specific diagnosis with a body of research is 'medium'. Does this mean I could just swap them round? (Speaking as a fond author). Fainites barley 20:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I think 'mid' is probably fair for RAD - though it gets 16,000 hits a month. Just that high is way too high for attachment disorder. I suspect it was put there by the old pro-attachment therapy socks as they're the ones who diagnose this alleged disorder. I'll raise it on the talkpage. Fainites barley 17:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back : )
The name says it all : ) - jc37 04:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Ondine
Please Help! - I am looking for the support of ballet and dance enthusiasts on Wikipedia, to help me prevent the proposed merging of Ondine (Ashton), into an article about the ballet's music. The music for this ballet would not have been written had it not been for the choreographer Frederick Ashton, who commissioned it specially for this ballet. This ballet was one of Ashton's most famous works and it would be a terrible shame for this article to be merged into an article that focusses primarily on the music and the composer rather than the ballet and the choreography.

See here: - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music

Please vote to oppose this change, as this music would not have been written had it not been for Ashton's ballet!!!

Thank You

Crazy-dancing (talk) 20:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Ron Hamilton

The article Ron Hamilton has been proposed for deletion  because of the following concern:
 * no evidence of notability

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. — RHaworth 13:40, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Dance
Hey! I am trying to revive WikiProject Dance and am contacting all members to see if they are still available. If you are interested in continuing, please let me know so I can keep you on the members list. If not, let me know and I'll move your name to the inactive members. Please respond on the project talkpage within seven days or you name will be labeled inactive. Please don't reply here. You can always rejoin if you forget to respond. Also, if you have any knowledge on how to design pages, please note that. Thank you! ReelAngelGirl  Talk to me!   Tea?  14:45, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
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 Happy Birthday! Have a very happy birthday on your special day!

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Happy Birthday!
 Wishing Cswrye a very happy birthday on behalf of the Birthday Committee!   CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 15:22, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

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title: User talk:Cswrye


text:
Configuration item

The term configuration item (CI) refers to the fundamental structural unit of a configuration management system. Examples of CIs include individual hardware or software components. The configuration-management system oversees the life of the CIs through a combination of processes and tools by implementing and enabling the fundamental elements of identification, change management, status accounting, and audits. This system aims to avoid the introduction of errors related to lack of testing as well as of incompatibilities with other CIs.

Description
The term "configuration item" can be applied to a product, allocated component of a product, or both that satisfies an end use function, has distinct requirements, functionality and/or product relationships, and is designated for distinct control in the configuration-management system. Configuration items and their associated product configuration information versions, and approved changes, form the basis of any current approved configuration audit.

 * The entity must be uniquely identified so that it can be distinguished from all other configuration items and their associated product configuration information.
 * From the perspective of the implementer of a change, the CI is "what items" within the product structure is effected by the change. Altering a specific baseline version of a configuration item creates a new version of the baseline containing the revise changes to the information impacted by the change. The CI part number may change based on if the new or updated part will no longer be Interchangeable functionally or physically with the existing part. The software CI version will changes for any time a change is implemented. In examining the effect of a change, two of the questions that must be asked are:
 * What configuration items are affected?
 * How have the configuration items and their associated configuration information and interfaces are affected?

 * The use of the CI within a product can be traced in a robust status-accounting system.
 * The CI is subject to acceptance verification based on established criteria.

Configuration item types
Examples of CI types are:
 * Hardware/devices
 * Software/applications
 * Communications/networks
 * System
 * Location
 * Facility
 * Database
 * Service

Entities of change management, incidents and problem management and other processes are sometimes also considered a configuration items.

CI attributes and data
Configuration items are represented by their properties. These properties can be common to all the configuration items (e.g. unique item code that we will generate, description of function, end of the lifecycle or business owner that is approving configuration item changes and technical owner, i.e. administrator, that is supporting it and implementing the changes). Further properties can be specific for the given item type. Hardware devices will have some properties, database servers another and application and certificates again other properties.

Examples of common properties:

 * CI unique identifier or identification code
 * CI name or label (often, both long names and short names)
 * CI abbreviations or acronyms
 * CI description
 * CI ownership (organizations and people)
 * CI importance

Identifying properties Each type of configuration item should have certain properties, combination of which will be unique. Therefore, we will be able to recognize according to them which item we are dealing with. In case of devices such unique combination will be e.g. manufacturer of the device, model/type and serial number.

Identifying properties (highlighted in red) allow us to distinguish between particular instances of these items.

Releases
A release (itself, a versioned entity) may consist of several configuration items. The set of changes to each configuration item will appear in the release notes, and the notes may contain specific headings for each configuration item. A complex hardware configuration item may have many levels of configuration items beneath its top level; each configuration item level must meet the same fundamental elements of the configuration management system.

A modern approach to managing configuration items relating to releases is to make use of code repositories and artifact repositories to supplement the configuration management database. This can be seen in the use of a definitive media library.

Vocabulary
In addition to its purpose in the implementation and management of a change, each configuration item's listing and definition should act as a common vocabulary across all groups connected to the product. One should define the CI at a level such that an individual involved with product marketing and an individual responsible for implementation can agree to a common definition when they use the name of the configuration item. Selection and identification of configuration items for a particular project can be seen as the first step in developing an overall architecture of the product from the top down.

title: Configuration item


text:
Talk:Michael Colvin

Untitled
I want the conspiracy theories, dammit!!!

me too!

and me!

 * They've been deleted as defamatory. If you can cite any of it - any at all - from a proper source, we can consider mentioning it, but as it stands it's unsubstantiated libel, really.
 * Post it to the PB board if you must.
 * James F. (talk) 20:49, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Um, under UK law it is impossible to defame the dead. Icundell 23:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it is, but since the servers are in Florida whatever we write here must comply with US laws. Mgm|(talk) 01:03, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

 * Besides, not everyone mentioned in the deleted text is dead. --rbrwr± 06:07, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Err
What exactly was here? Can i get it on a Mirror? This page was linked to by the once-Great Popbitch!

Use Google. It's easily found.

Colvin connections
Lots more at Talk:Colvin family. BrainyBabe (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Michael Colvin


text:
Step into Christmas

"Step into Christmas" is a Christmas song written by English musician Elton John and songwriter Bernie Taupin, and performed by John. It was released as a stand-alone single in November 1973 with the song "Ho, Ho, Ho (Who'd Be a Turkey at Christmas)" as the B-side. Upon its original 1973 release, the song peaked at No. 24 on the UK Singles Chart, and it reached a new peak of No. 8 on the same chart in 2019. In the United States, the single reached No. 56 on the Cash Box Top 100 Singles chart and No. 1 on the Billboard Christmas Singles chart.

"Step into Christmas" was later included as a bonus track on the 1995 remastered reissue of the album Caribou, even though it was released in the Goodbye Yellow Brick Road era. It also appears on the albums Elton John's Christmas Party, Rare Masters, To Be Continued, Diamonds and various Christmas compilation albums. Two versions with different vocals are known to exist: the original single mix and a version recorded for John's 1973 performance of "Step into Christmas" on The Gilbert O'Sullivan Show television programme (which featured Bernie Taupin standing in for Ray Cooper on percussion).

In 2009, "Step into Christmas" was listed as the ninth-most-played Christmas song of the 2000s in the UK. In December 2023, the song was certified triple platinum by the British Phonographic Industry for sales and streams of 1,800,000 units. In September 2021, the song was certified gold by the Recording Industry Association of America for sales and streams of 500,000 units.

Recording
According to liner notes about the song (in Rare Masters and Elton John's Christmas Party), the track and its B-side, both produced by Gus Dudgeon, were recorded during a session on 11 November 1973 at London's Morgan Studios, which was owned by drummer Barry Morgan, who had played on several of John's early albums. "Step into Christmas" was mixed to sound like one of producer Phil Spector's 1960s recordings, using compression and imitating his trademark wall of sound technique. This was intentional according to both John and Taupin, and an homage of sorts to Christmas songs by Spector-produced groups such as the Ronettes.

Music video
The music video produced to promote the single features the band playing the song in a recording studio, with John playing at a piano adorned with a red feather boa. It is notable for its cameo appearance of Taupin, who is seen briefly during the song's bridge playing tubular bells, although they are played on the track by the band's percussionist Ray Cooper. John is also seen playfully holding his supporter's card for Watford F.C., the football club he would later own. Later in the video John is seeing playing a guitar alongside drummer Nigel Olsson and then embracing him, and briefly with drum sticks inserted into the ends of his mouth.

title: Step into Christmas


text:
User:Cendicott

About cendicott:

 * A new Wikipedian (creation date: 06/02/2005)
 * Goal: To contribute constructive and relevant information to the community of knowledge that is Wikipedia.
 * Location: Apex, North Carolina
 * Education:
 * Bachelor of Arts Degree | Mass Communications & Political Science
 * Emory and Henry College; May 2002

title: User:Cendicott


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cube pranks

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. – ugen64 01:20, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cube pranks
A substub about a type of practical joke in the office involving people's cubicles. Nominated for speedy, but doesn't fit WP:CSD. Meelar (talk) 19:51, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

Is this a recognized phrase in actual use? If not, delete. As this entry stands now it is useless but perhaps with the addition of some examples the article would be more informative, at which time it could be moved to the cubicle page. EDM
 * Delete, no usefull info currently. It is not clear this is encyclopedic, and unless it is expanded I don't see why we should use our time arguing about this substub. Thue | talk 20:22, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete -- Even if it is a recognized phrase (and I'm not saying it is--I've never heard of it), this is a dictionary entry, not an encyclopedia article.Gary D Robson 21:04, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete dicdef. In any case, I fail to see how this would be anything other than just pranks or practical jokes. --Xcali 23:16, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not a notable topic. — Phil Welch 00:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


text:
List of settlements in Samos

This is a list of settlements in the island of Samos, Greece.

 * Agioi Theodoroi
 * Agios Konstantinos
 * Ampelos
 * Chora
 * Drakaioi
 * Kallithea
 * Karlovasi
 * Kastania
 * Kokkari
 * Kontaiika
 * Kontakaiika
 * Kosmadaioi
 * Koumaiika
 * Koumaradaioi
 * Leka
 * Manolates
 * Marathokampos
 * Mavratzaioi
 * Mesogeio
 * Myloi
 * Mytilinioi
 * Neochori
 * Pagondas
 * Palaiokastro
 * Pandroso
 * Platanos
 * Pyrgos
 * Pythagoreio
 * Samos
 * Skouraiika
 * Spatharaioi
 * Stavrinides
 * Vathy
 * Vourliotes
 * Ydroussa

title: List of settlements in Samos


text:
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Argyrosargyrou/Evidence

Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please make a header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.

When placing evidence here, please be considerate of the arbitrators and be concise. Long, rambling, or stream-of-conciousness rants are not helpful.

As such, it is extremely important that you use the prescribed format. Submitted evidence should include a link to the actual page diff; links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form:.

This page is not for general discussion - for that, see talk page.

Please make a section for your evidence and add evidence only in your own section. Please limit your evidence to a maximum 1000 words and 100 diffs, a much shorter, concise presentation is more likely to be effective. Please focus on the issues raised in the complaint and answer and on diffs which illustrate behavior which relates to the issues.

If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please cite the evidence in your own section and provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Do not edit within the evidence section of any other user.

Be aware that the Arbitrators may at times rework this page to try to make it more coherent. If you are a participant in the case or a third party, please don't try to refactor the page, let the Arbitrators do it. If you object to evidence which is inserted by other participants or third parties please cite the evidence and voice your objections within your own section of the page. It is especially important to not remove evidence presented by others. If something is put in the wrong place, please leave it for the arbitrators to move.

16 June 2005
'''
 * Use of external source to rally support for Vfd: User:Yorik admitted being directed to Votes for deletion/The pogroms in Istanbul via a Greek mailing list.

 * Vandalism by possible sockpuppet/supporter of Argyrosargyrou: User:TheAmbassador is a possible sockpuppet of Argyrosargyrou or someone directed here externally, his contributions have consisted of replacing/filling articles related to Turkey and Cyprus with content created by Argyrosargyrou.

26 May - 14 June 2005

 * Possible use of multiple sockpuppets to influence VfDs
 * Votes for deletion involving articles created by Argyrosargyrou have invariably attracted numerous anonymous IP voters and new users with only a handful of edits, and often an editing record confined to voting on articles created by Argyrosargyrou. Without a detailed scrutiny of IP addresses (which I can't do for named user accounts anyway) it's not possible to be certain, but given Argyrosargyrou's previous use of anonymous proxies I believe it to be likely that he is using multiple sockpuppets to influence the outcome of votes. So far this has affected Votes for deletion/Hellenic Genocide; Votes for deletion/Turkish Holocaust Chronological Index; Votes for deletion/Turkish Invasion of Cyprus (possibly); and Votes for deletion/The pogroms in Istanbul, which attracted a "vote" from an open proxy in Colombia. Other users have identified the likely sockpuppets and their votes have - as far as I know - been discounted in resolving the votes.
 * (added) Many of the apparent sockpuppets appear to be using names alluding to the current series of Doctor Who showing in the UK, hence User:BigBrother (featured in last Saturday's episode) and User:TheEndOfTheWorld (the title of episode 2 of the present series), as well as individual characters - User:CaptainJack, User:TheSlitheen and User:Jagrafes. Other apparent sockpuppets refer to UK figures, e.g. User:NeilKinnock, User:JohnChaucer (sic for Geoffrey Chaucer). Argyrosargyrou has a co.uk website which gives his address as Northampton, UK. All pretty obvious, really...

13 June 2005

 * Re-creation of deleted articles following VfDs
 * Hellenic Genocide was re-created yet again as The Hellenic Holocaust and The Hellenic (Greek) Genocide, despite Argyrosargyrou overwhelmingly losing a vote for undeletion on Votes for undeletion.
 * Vandalism of user pages
 * User:ChrisO following speedy deletion of the above: ,
 * User:Scimitar following that user's nomination of another article for deletion: ,

2 June 2005

 * Re-creation of deleted articles following VfDs
 * Hellenic Genocide re-created 4 times (3 times via open proxies) following valid VfD
 * See - timestamps 12:50, 2 Jun 2005; 16:02, 2 Jun 2005 from open proxy 202.47.247.146; 17:13, 2 Jun 2005 from open proxy 193.188.105.22; 17:24, 2 Jun 2005 from open proxy 203.157.14.247.

 * Violation of 3RR
 * Cyprus reunification referendum, 2004 (page history) -, , , , . 24 hr block imposed by User:ChrisO.

 * Use of multiple open proxies to avoid temporary block
 * Cyprus reunification referendum, 2004 (page history) -, , , , , etc. Proxies mostly trace to Taiwan, South Korea and Hong Kong.

 * Refusal to work with other users to seek compromise wording
 * Talk:Cyprus reunification referendum, 2004 -

31 May 2005

 * Attacks on other users
 * Votes for deletion/Turkish Invasion of Cyprus (history) -
 * See also the user page vandalism of 13 June 2005.

29 May 2005

 * Creation of POV forks
 * Following the protection of Cyprus dispute, three very similar POV forks are created: Cyprus problem, Cyprus issue (deleted, then recreated by User:Jnc as a redirect) and Turkish Invasion of Cyprus . All were/are highly partisan, in violation of WP:NPOV.

23-28 May 2005

 * Attacks on other users, false characterisation of edits as "vandalism", "sabotage" etc
 * Cyprus dispute (history) -, , , , , also Talk:Cyprus_dispute/Archive_2 (not all his entries are signed, e.g. "Warning to *", "To *, historical edits unacceptable"; but his edits are easily recognisable), Talk:Cyprus_dispute/Archive_3 etc

23 May 2005

 * Violation of 3RR
 * Cyprus dispute -, , , (resulted in 24 hr block by User:Proteus)

Statement by Expatkiwi
I have had postings on various Cyprus subject sites (for example, see page history for Turkish Cypriot Genocide) interfered with by Argyrosargyrou, and I have also been personally attacked by him on the Cyprus Dispute discussion page. He is not open to any form of compromise language and his entries are heavilly biased. Expatkiwi, 23:42 2 June 2005 (UTC)

Statement by UNFanatic
Actually the aforementioned person committed similar offences with HEAVILY BIASED pro-Turkish entries at times. In addition, Argyrosargyrou revealed through his actions that for some time these articles about Cyprus have been edited unchecked by wikipedians with such Turkish bias. His introduction of the Greek bias facilitated the reexamination of how these articles were written prior to his appearance. In essence, everyone is guilty of perpetrating their point of view in these articles. I do not think he should be removed at all and this forum should be terminated. (UNFanatic 01:58, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC))

 * You are just as guilty as Argyrosargyrou in this. And FYI, I don't go around personally slandering or tearing apart entries with caustic comments. Expatkiwi 02:51, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Statement by snchduer
I have repeatedly tried to talk to Argyrosargyrou and to spark a discussion, but earned nothing but insults and contempt in return (e.g. and Archives of Talk:Cyprus_dispute). He does not seem to be open to any compromise, and stubbornly wants his views to be spread on wikipedia. Any view that differs from his does not seem to be acceptable to him, and he obviously thinks this gives him the right to break all wikipedia rules and standards of interpersonal behaviour. - Snchduer 11:31, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Group efforts
There have been accusations of group efforts to deny access to Argyro, which make me write these extra lines. The group that Ank99 is talking of - we were trying indeed to uphold and improve a version which IMHO was considerably better than his, though, by wikipedia standards, it is still quite far away from being a good NPOV article. We were doing this because Argyro was trying to turn the Cyprus_dispute page into (or to keep it at) an article featuring almost only the Greek Cypriot POV. Had he been willing to discuss and to contribute more wisely, I am sure his point of view would have been heard and integrated. But accusing everybody to lie and to spread Turkish propaganda is certainly not helping to keep a calm discussion.

However, here the ArbCom afaik will mostly not decide about whether Argyro's article version was POV or not (which indeed is not always easy to recognise for sb who does not know much about the Cyprus issue), but whether or not his behaviour violated wikipedia rules and guidelines. - Snchduer 09:39, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Statement by E.A
Argyrosargyrou has used Wikipedia as nothing more than to spread nationalist and racist views against Turkish people. Wikipedia is only one part of this, he seems to dedicate websites outside of Wikipedia to labelling Turkish people as nothing more than human right abusing murderers. He has continued this in Wikipedia with articles such as Hellenic Genocide, Turkish Holocaust Chronological Index, as well as heavily editing and abusing articles such as Cyprus dispute. This article had to be protected following his inability to cooperate, so he went and created Cyprus problem, Cyprus Issue and Turkish Invasion of Cyprus all containing the same content. He has abused all the Vfd procedures with sockpuppeting and resorted to using open proxies to avoid a 3RR (which he has already violated).

Argyrosargyrou has no intention of using Wikipedia to create good articles with the cooperation of the community, he only sees it as an opportunity to spread more anti-Turkish sentinment which seems to blind him. --E.A 13:18, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Statement by ANK99
All statements here except user UNFanatic statement are of pro Turkish or Turkish Cypriot POV so they cannot be considered impartial and are not offering good advice. It is true that most articles where Argyrosargyrou was trying to add a pro Greek Cypriot POV were for long and painstakingly been edited with the opposite sides views. His attempts alarmed these individuals who mounted a concerted effort (I dare say) to deny him expressing his views. I have experienced a similar attempt trying to edit Cyprus dispute. See and an immediate revert by Snchduer without any warning or discussion. So Argyrosargyrou is not the only one that has violated Wikipedia rules here. In my opinion he has been trying in vain to record his POV and his contributions have been attacked repeatedly. Users E.A, Snchduer, Expatkiwi have been trying to run over him in any of his attempts. I disagree with denying him access. This forum should be terminated since it is another attempt to silence a POV contributor. I should mention that the Cyprus Issue in general IS a hotly debated controversial issue (not only in Wikipedia) and a NPOV is practically non existent. --Ank99 06:30, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Sources:
 * For Ank99's edit (which was actually made on Argyro's POV version):
 * For discussion about his edits (which he simply left after some while):
 * - Snchduer 19:00, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Response to Ank99 statement:

Ank to make out that there is some kind of conspiracy to suppress the GC POV is rubbish. The only reason so many people have slammed Argy for his edits is because of the uncompromising and insulting nature he goes about doing them. Out of all these people i am the only the TC here and my edits have contained nowhere near the POV extremes of Argy. What i do realise however is a group of GC's or people of Greek origin such as yourself and UNFanatic who are backing every article Argy produces, this can be seen in the Vfd pages on most articles he has produced. He shows no ability of compromising on any issue, or of acting in good faith. This is why his actions are being discussed. --E.A 19:30, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I have never supported Argyrosargyrou methods. Please provide evidence to the contrary.
 * "Group of GC" - who is in this group? UNFanatic, me and who else? And we have entered into this discussion only after YOUR efforts to ban Argyrosargyrou.
 * You should review the articles and find who has been so active on them supporting POVs that have been tested and failed in the UN Security Council, the European Courts, contrary to directives and norms in the EU, contrary to the charter of Human Rights and contrary to long standing treaties and international agreements. Then you should reexamine who is a fanatic.
 * Can you show me a place where YOU have been willing to compromise?

--Ank99 08:30, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Comments by ChrisO
For the record, as this request for arbitration appears to have attracted partisans on both sides of the Cyprus dispute, this is not about the political views of Argyrosargyrou. As the evidence makes clear, it is about his conduct: specifically his revert warring, violations of the 3RR, use of open proxies and attempts to evade a temporary block. The evidence for all of these is clear and compelling. I note that neither he nor any of his supporters has even mentioned any of these issues, let alone attempted to justify his actions.

Wikipedia has plenty of contributors who have a strong POV. They do not attempt to forcibly impose their POV by breaking most of Wikipedia's major rules and in the case of Argyrosargyrou, breaking the law as well (the unauthorised use of other people's computers is illegal in many jurisdictions). That is what this RfA is about, not whether Argyrosargyrou's political views have any merit. -- ChrisO 23:26, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Parties to this discussion are overwhelmingly in majority also parties in the dispute. Any scan of edits of articles partaining to this dispute will easily reveal this. Therefore this is not ONLY a dispute of Argyrosargyrou behaviour. Such behaviour was triggered by a group effort to deny him access to WP. This does not mean that I condone such behaviour. One though should have an all around view of events on deciding on a dispute. --Ank99 07:01, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Statement by Phlogistomania
I have in previous statements been willing to give Argyrosargyrou the benefit of the doubt and assume his good faith. This assumption has particularly been strengthened by his edits actually containing relevant new material, despite being surrounded in despicable anti-Turkish rhetoric. Furthermore, to a certain extent, his accusations of a pro-Turkish POV in certain articles (and sections thereof) were not unreasonable.

We should also consider the articles unrelated to Helleno-Turkish conflicts which he has contributed to. Aside from to what extent they read encyclopaedically, he has contributed some material of interest and value. I could therefore see a lot of merit in trying to let this dispute cool off, although that would depend firstly upon Argyrosargyrou assuming the good faith of others (I think we can all understand where his paranoia comes from, but AGF is fundamental), and secondly that something is done about making the articles in question conform more closely to NPOV.

However, I was not previously aware of for how long this dispute had been going on. What is notable is that this all stems from a simple violation of 3RR. Although it by no means serves to excuse Argyrosargyrou's actions, one can understand his frustration at this rule: it is naturally conservative in operation, and therefore is a useful tool against someone trying to make a bad edit, but wholly fails to guard against the (much less likely) scenario of there being a trenchant upholder (or upholders) of a previous bad version of an article. The ideal, difficult as it may be, would be a total rewrite from scratch of Cyprus Dispute to the quality of a featured article candidate.

Nevertheless, at some point I have to acknowledge that my assumptions are overly optimistic. Although I have my reservations about some of the rules of Wikipedia (note, however, that I could not suggest anything better and am not advocating any rule changes), the facts of the case are clear: Argyrosargyrou has flagrantly and systematically flouted the rules. In order for him ever to be able to contribute here, he must agree to abide by the rules, and, moreover, actually abide by them. I sincerely hope, therefore, that he will decide that he wants to behave like a civilised member of this community. Phlogistomania 00:35, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

 * There was never an argument that Argyrosargyrou is in violation of WP's rules. There is though the opposite side: of a concerted effort (such it seems) of a group of contributors to pass their POV at all costs, including banning users from contributing. How can one be protected from such group violations when even the RfA's are driven by the same group? --Ank99 06:54, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Statement by Scimitar
I should begin by saying that I have no connection (to my knowledge) to either side in the Cyprus dispute, and am only aware of this page because I was irritated by Argyrosargyrou's holocaust comments on the VfD page cited by ChrisO.

I would like to submit that, having reviewed the evidence, Argyrosargyrou seems to have a consistent pattern of incivility and poor decorum. Furthermore, I would like to note that this does not extend solely to the Cyprus dispute.

 * Timeline of Ancient Greece Talk Page

I could quote at length about the statements Argyrosargyrou makes, but I think his tone is evident from the above link. In short, Argyrosargyrou is rude, over-the-top and condescending to another user because that user suggested that a novel by Pausanius might not be historically accurate. To become so heated over a minor issue from 3000 years ago shows, in my opinion, an utter lack of self-control and an inability to display common courtesy on the part of Argyrosargyrou.

This is not to say Argyrosargyrou's opponents have been blameless; I note vandalism to his user page on May 30 (subsequently reverted by UNFanatic). However, I also note that even his allies in the Cyprus dispute suggest an increase in civility. In any case, it seems clear to me that Argyrosargyrou's comments and actions go well beyond simple partisan disagreement, and are not suitable for Wikipedia. Scimitar 17:21, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Statement by Sarg
Exactly like Scimitar, I have nothing to do whatsoever with the Cyprus dispute. Five months ago I had never even thought about the Cyprus issue beyond the lines of "it's an island were Greeks and Turkish have constant conflicts".

However, I was shocked to read one of the incredibly POV articles made by this user when it was being voted for deletion. And his childish and stubborn behaviour has continued to this day, getting even worse with the recent "Attack of the 50 feet sockpuppets" at Votes for deletion/The pogroms in Istanbul.

I want it to be clear that the issues behind Argy's articles are probably valid. I don't know for certain, since, as I've already said, I'm not an expert in the topic. However, every conflict has two sides, and usually both sides commit horrible attrocities. Thus, the articles could be developed to include both POVs, but Argy's partisanism is only achieving two things: 1) Avoiding a proper treatment of the topics and 2) Making a lot of people waste their time.

So, as a summary, the topics are valid, but this user needs to learn to behave. Sarg 19:09, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


text: User talk:65.54.154.144

title: User talk:65.54.154.144


text:
The Hammers

The Hammers may refer to:

 * West Ham United F.C., a professional English football club
 * PFC Minyor Pernik, a professional Bulgarian football club
 * Forge FC, a professional Canadian soccer club
 * 69 Squadron IAF, an Israeli Air Force squadron

title: The Hammers


text:
Configuration interaction

Configuration interaction (CI) is a post-Hartree–Fock linear variational method for solving the nonrelativistic Schrödinger equation within the Born–Oppenheimer approximation for a quantum chemical multi-electron system. Mathematically, configuration simply describes the linear combination of Slater determinants used for the wave function. In terms of a specification of orbital occupation (for instance, (1s)2(2s)2(2p)1...), interaction means the mixing (interaction) of different electronic configurations (states). Due to the long CPU time and large memory required for CI calculations, the method is limited to relatively small systems.

In contrast to the Hartree–Fock method, in order to account for electron correlation, CI uses a variational wave function that is a linear combination of configuration state functions (CSFs) built from spin orbitals (denoted by the superscript SO),

 * $$ \Psi = \sum_{I=0} c_{I} \Phi_{I}^{SO} =  c_0\Phi_0^{SO} + c_1\Phi_1^{SO} + {...} $$

where Ψ is usually the electronic ground state of the system. If the expansion includes all possible CSFs of the appropriate symmetry, then this is a full configuration interaction procedure which exactly solves the electronic Schrödinger equation within the space spanned by the one-particle basis set. The first term in the above expansion is normally the Hartree–Fock determinant. The other CSFs can be characterised by the number of spin orbitals that are swapped with virtual orbitals from the Hartree–Fock determinant. If only one spin orbital differs, we describe this as a single excitation determinant. If two spin orbitals differ it is a double excitation determinant and so on. This is used to limit the number of determinants in the expansion which is called the CI-space.

Truncating the CI-space is important to save computational time. For example, the method CID is limited to double excitations only. The method CISD is limited to single and double excitations. Single excitations on their own do not mix with the Hartree–Fock determinant. These methods, CID and CISD, are in many standard programs. The Davidson correction can be used to estimate a correction to the CISD energy to account for higher excitations. An important problem of truncated CI methods is their size-inconsistency which means the energy of two infinitely separated particles is not double the energy of the single particle.

The CI procedure leads to a general matrix eigenvalue equation:

 * $$ \mathbb{H} \mathbf{c} = \mathbf{e}\mathbb{S}\mathbf{c}, $$

where c is the coefficient vector, e is the eigenvalue matrix, and the elements of the hamiltonian and overlap matrices are, respectively,

 * $$ \mathbb{H}_{ij} = \left\langle \Phi_i^{SO} | \mathbf{H}^{el} | \Phi_j^{SO} \right\rangle $$,

 * $$ \mathbb{S}_{ij} = \left\langle \Phi_i^{SO} | \Phi_j^{SO} \right\rangle $$.

Slater determinants are constructed from sets of orthonormal spin orbitals, so that $$\left\langle \Phi_i^{SO} | \Phi_j^{SO} \right\rangle = \delta_{ij}$$, making $$\mathbb{S}$$ the identity matrix and simplifying the above matrix equation.

The solution of the CI procedure are some eigenvalues $$ \mathbf{E}^j $$ and their corresponding eigenvectors $$\mathbf{c}_I^j$$.

The eigenvalues are the energies of the ground and some electronically excited states. By this it is possible to calculate energy differences (excitation energies) with CI methods. Excitation energies of truncated CI methods are generally too high, because the excited states are not that well correlated as the ground state is. For equally (balanced) correlation of ground and excited states (better excitation energies) one can use more than one reference determinant from which all singly, doubly, ... excited determinants are included (multireference configuration interaction). MRCI also gives better correlation of the ground state which is important if it has more than one dominant determinant. This can be easily understood because some higher excited determinants are also taken into the CI-space.

For nearly degenerate determinants which build the ground state one should use the multi-configurational self-consistent field (MCSCF) method because the Hartree–Fock determinant is qualitatively wrong and so are the CI wave functions and energies.

title: Configuration interaction


text: User talk:65.182.172.83

title: User talk:65.182.172.83


text:
Talk:Car dealerships in the United States

Racism and Honest
In that Wikipedia is supposed to be a factual, non emotionally charged resource, does anyone else agree with me that these newer sections should be deleted? This topic deserves its discussion in the racism section of Wikipedia Gnew18 00:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This section meets Wikipedia's criteria because it is referenced (see "references" section). The references show how car dealerships have been criticized for being these ways. Hellno2 13:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The section appears to be someones accusation levied at... no on in particular...   My inclination is to remove at least the racism section - leads off with the phrase "Many auto dealerships have been known"; Known by who? and "have sometimes resulted in lawsuits" where are these lawsuits?, how often is "sometimes"?  I've tagged for unrefenced and will give it a while to see if any citations show up. Cander0000 07:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have included 4 citations. I listed these simply because they were the first 4 GHits on the topic. If you are not satisfied with them, you can simply google for more. The subject matter is well covered on many websites. Hellno2 20:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hellno2, You added a citation that had absolutely nothing to with the preceding sentence. I removed it and the sentence. For your reference it was the repeat of the CTV article, which you cited as proof of African Americans being discriminated against. The article does not mention anything of the sort and only talks about Canadians being discriminated against because of our high dollar. I'm going to review your other citations now to make sure you didnt do the same thing in them as well. 64.230.43.92 16:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I understand that there are a lot of people who share the opinion that Car dealers are dishonest. However, thats exactly it, a opinion. Dealerships are run by people, just like every other business in the US. If dealerships get a special column on their wikipedia page about honesty, I think every other US business should get a Honesty section as well. -Ben —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.159.20.222 (talk) 21:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Added Content. Agreed that these sections seemed soley based on opinion not facts related to honesty. Based on where you are coming from with this I made some revisions and added some research to the section and renamed it Customer/Dealer Perceptions, because truly that is what the area seems to address. Mmenton (talk) 14:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Can we just outright delete it most of it? The first two lines seem to be the only ones conveying desirable information (opinion polls and dealership law). It has statements that are drifting well into the realm of opinion and reads like it was copied from a corporate website. Consider: "Auto dealers appreciate car shoppers who know what they are looking for" and "the auto retailing industry works hard to eliminate outdated stereotypes". The only citation for much of it is a dead link to autoretailing.org. The used car paragraph has no citation. Nitwit005 (talk) 05:23, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Credit Life and Disability
Explained "choke and croak" more clearly and cleaned up the service contract section IF any is interested I worked in my family's car dealerships for over nine years. Please feel free to go to my [talk page] and contact me Gnew18 05:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyone Out there?
Is there anybody here that is familiar with or has worked for a car dealership in the past? If so, and you have some time I would really appreciate it if you could e-mail me. I have a few questions, which should not take too long. My e-mail is Bbardes@hotmail.com

Thank You

--- I have worked in many dealerships, if you have any questions email me at benbaummier@gmail.com. I can answer most if not all of your questions. -Ben —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.159.20.222 (talk) 20:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

This article is a classic! Here we have, in Wikipedia, a supposedly international on-line encyclopedia. However, anyone reading this article might be forgiven for thinking that car dealerships are a purely American phenomenon. This article seems to have been "written" by someone in America who is unaware that there are any other locations at all in the rest of the world. The author seems to think that America is the world, and the world is America.

I'm going to rename this one to "Car dealerships in the US". It's just too much effort to give it an international perspective. I'll set up a new article called "Car dealership" for the world at large.

It's depressing to note that there's so much material in Wikipedia similar to this. Arcturus

Deleted most of the article
I decided to get rid of most of the article and replaced a few things mostly because it was very off topic. Most of the article was how to work in a dealership, none of it helped me know more about them.

This article needs serious work, I may have time to do more research later.

 * I agree that this article needs serious work, but trimming it to a list of car dealership brands was definitely overkill, so I reverted the deletion. Caerwine 04:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Restructuring
This article ought to be about what car dealerships do, not what car salesmen do. Car dealers sell cars and offer some additional services. I've tried to structure it that way, but I still think we need to flesh out the business model of car dealers' core activities (selling cars, buying trade-ins, financing purchases, servicing cars, etc.).

It seems like two issues that would be useful to tackle beyond this (perhaps alongside regulation) are why the US automobile distribution channel worked out this way (some history, along with some description of the legal issues that are emerging in an eBay world), and some discussion of sales tactics/compensation. Why do they call them "used car salesmen" anyway? Gary 13:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

- Added Information -

I added a lot more information, mostly on the additional services offered by car dealerships. -

Balance of coverage
The article has two paragraphs on selling cars and 11 on 'other services', although those other service may be of note, it seems inherent that their reason for existense is to 'sell cars'. Can we lose some of the detail on the 'other services'? Cander0000 07:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't see why details on other services provided by car dealerships should be lessened or omitted. Every time I have bought a new car, many of these "other services" were offered to me. I am not in the car sales industry, but it is my understanding that the profit for the dealership itself often might be just as much from these other services as it might be for the sale of the car itself.

To be fair, there would be little or no logical reason to offer these other services if the car dealer didn't have the cars to sell. But they are in some ways just as much in the business of selling said services as they are in selling the cars, at least as I perceive it. 69.76.14.139 (talk) 15:02, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

The Honesty Issue
I understand that there are a lot of people who share the opinion that Car dealers are dishonest. However, thats exactly it, a opinion. Dealerships are run by people, just like every other business in the US. If dealerships get a special column on their wikipedia page about honesty, I think every other US business should get a Honesty section as well.

Also, Why would a dealer agree to have someone take a used car to a different mechanic? First off, they own it and they insure it. So if anything happened to it before purchase was finalized, then they have to pay for any damages. Now, if someone paid a trusted mechanic to come to the dealership and look at it with the salesmens supervision, I dont think that would be a problem.

You do make mention of carfax, which is a good tool for used car buyers to help with decision making, so I must compliment you on that.

If you really want to make your article up to date you should add some information on the possible revoulution of car dealerships. There are about to be some big changes in this industry. If you have any questions feel free to email me about and I will give you answers + sources. benbaummier@gmail.com

-Ben

I've been in the car business for 17 years Ben and have never worked at a Dealership that wouldn't let a customer take a vehicle to their own mechanicRjdz28 (talk) 09:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Source Bias
The numbers presented in the Customer Experience section come from Automotive Retailing Today (ART) which is "a coalition of all major automobile manufacturers and dealer organizations" according to their website. I think this section may be misleading. Jackjackerson (talk) 17:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

NPOV
There is a great amount of this article that is not from a neutral point of view. Either bashing used car dealers and praising new car dealers or making statements like "The the dealer won't let you have a vehicle inspected by a mechanic than it must have hidden problems. — ASPENSTI — TALK  — CONTRIBUTIONS  01:33, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Garbage
The article looks like it was written by a third-grader.

"This is the final step of [the] negotiation process."

"is able to hand the sales manage[r] a token of good faith"

"[vehicle's] manufacture[r']s suggested retail price"

or maybe

"vehicles' manufacture[r']s suggested retail price[s]"

depending if he's talking about one car at a time or the whole lot. I don't know, and I doubt he does.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.237.97 (talk) 17:15, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

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