text:
Timeline of major crimes in Australia

This is a timeline of major crimes in Australia.

1800s

 * 4 March 1804 – Castle Hill convict rebellion.
 * 26 January 1808 – George Johnston played a key role in the only successful armed takeover of government in Australia's recorded history, the Rum Rebellion. Johnston later sailed for England and was found guilty of mutiny.

1820s

 * 1821 – Bank of New South Wales Cashier Francis Williams embezzled £12,000 (approx. $3,202,000AU in 2024) from Australia's first bank.
 * 20 September 1822 – Alexander Pearce, Bob Greenhill and six others escaped from Macquarie Harbour. Pearce and Greenhill later killed their fellow escapees and ate them.
 * 1820s – Thomas Jeffrey, bushranger, serial killer and cannibal in the early 19th century in Van Diemen's Land (now Tasmania, Australia), he and his gang killed four male adults and a five-month-old baby in the mid-1820s. He was executed by hanging on 4 May 1826.
 * 10 February 1828 – Cape Grim massacre – Four shepherds with muskets ambushed over 30 Tasmanian Aboriginal people from the Pennemukeer band from Cape Grim, killing 30 and throwing their bodies over a 60-metre cliff into the sea.
 * 14 September 1828 – Bank of Australia robbery

1830s

 * 10 June 1838 – Myall Creek Massacre – up to 30 Aboriginal people were slaughtered at the Myall Creek near Bingara in northern New South Wales. After two trials, seven of the 11 colonists involved in the killings were found guilty of murder and hanged.

1840s

 * June to July 1840 – Maria shipwreck massacre – 25 survivors of the Maria shipwreck were massacred along the Coorong under mysterious circumstances while being accompanied back to Adelaide by members of the Ngarrindjeri. Governor George Gawler ordered a hasty investigation and the execution of those responsible. A drumhead court-martial led to the execution of two Ngarrindjeri men.

1850s

 * 28 November to 3 December 1854 – Eureka Stockade gold prospectors staged an uprising against the government leading to armed conflict; 22 miners and 6 soldiers were killed

1860s

 * 30 June 1861 – Lambing Flat riots White miners rioted against Chinese immigrants.
 * 17 October 1861 – Cullin La Ringo massacre in Central Queensland. Nineteen white settlers were killed, one of the largest massacres of whites by Aborigines in Australian history.
 * 15 June 1862 – Eugowra gold escort robbery – Frank Gardiner's gang, including Ben Hall, stole 2700 ounces of gold worth more than 14,000 pounds.
 * 9 April 1865 – Daniel Morgan, a prominent bushranger who had been raiding banks in Victoria and New South Wales for more than a decade, was killed.
 * 27 April 1867 – Southern New South Wales bushrangers, Thomas and John Clarke were captured. They were hanged on 25 June that year.
 * February to May 1868 – Flying Foam Massacre – confrontations between white settlers and Aboriginal people around Flying Foam Passage on Murujuga (Burrup Peninsula) resulted in the deaths of between 20 and 150 people
 * 1869 – Bushranger Andrew "Captain Moonlite" Scott robbed the London Chartered Bank of Australia in Mount Egerton, Victoria escaping with £1,000.

1870s

 * October 1878 – Stringybark Creek Massacre – Victorian bushrangers, the Kelly Gang, ambushed and killed three police officers at Stringybark Creek.
 * December 1878 – Bushranger Ned Kelly raided a bank in Euroa and, at a nearby sheep station, hosted a party for his 22 hostages shortly afterwards.

1880s

 * 26 June 1880 – Joe Byrne shot Aaron Sherritt dead because Sherritt gave the police information about the Kelly Gang in exchange for money.
 * 27 June 1880 – Ned Kelly's Last Stand – The Kelly Gang held the town of Glenrowan, Victoria, hostage at the town's inn in an attempt to ambush police. The attempt failed, and a siege ensued on the 28th, during which time three members of Kelly's gang and a young boy were killed, and Ned Kelly was captured after being wounded by police.
 * 24 July 1880 – John James MacGregor Greer shot his wife, Annice, and M. A. Louis Soudry,and then shot himself at the Melbourne Opera House. J.J.M. Greer died; the others recovered.
 * 16 May 1881 – Police Trooper Harry Pearce was viciously attacked by a prisoner, Robert Johnson, with a knife while on escort to Kingston SE. Pearce died of his injuries on 19 May, the second South Australian policeman to die while on duty. Johnson was executed at Mount Gambier Gaol on 18 November the same year.

1890s

 * 24 December 1891 – The Windsor murder – English gasfitter, confidence trickster and career criminal Frederick Bailey Deeming murdered his new wife Emily (née Mather) at a newly rented house in Andrew Street, Windsor, Melbourne, burying her body under the hearth. He had previously murdered his first wife, Marie Deeming, and their four children, and buried them beneath the floor of a house at Rainhill, England in July or August 1891. Their bodies were not discovered until after the Windsor murder. Deeming was arrested at Southern Cross, Western Australia, and after a trial at Melbourne, he was executed in June 1892. His notoriety in Australia was such that he was widely believed to be Jack the Ripper.
 * 11 October 1896 – Joseph Thyer, a sheep farmer, murdered his wife and five children before hanging himself in Cavanagh, SA
 * 1 March 1898 – Glover family tragedy – A mother murdered her six children and then committed suicide in the town of Triabunna, Tasmania
 * 26 December 1898 – Gatton murders – Three members of the same family were murdered, the sisters having been sexually assaulted, near the town of Gatton, Queensland (unsolved)

1900s

 * 20 July 1900 – Jimmy Governor murdered four members of the Mawbey family and schoolteacher Helen Josephine Kerz at Breelong, NSW. Later, with his brother Joe, he murdered two old men, Alexander McKay and Kyrien Fitzpatrick, and members of the O'Brien family— mother and wife Elizabeth and her unborn child, along with her 10-month-old son— near Merriwa in the Upper Hunter district. After being on the run for around 100 days, Joe was shot dead and Jimmy was taken to Sydney for trial, where he was found guilty of the murder of Miss Kerz (not of any of his other victims) and hanged at Darlinghurst Gaol in January 1901.
 * 2 January 1902 – Bertha Schippan was found murdered at Towitta, South Australia, two weeks before her 14th birthday. After an inquest, her 24-year-old sister Mary stood trial in Adelaide, but was acquitted.
 * April 1902 – The charred remains of Albert Dahlke and Constable George Doyle of the Upper Warrego police station were found in Lethbridge's Pocket. They had set out during Easter 1902 to arrest James and Patrick Kenniff for horse-stealing.  Strong suspicion for the murders fell on the Kenniffs. Sam Johnson, Doyle's aboriginal tracker, heard shots fired, and when he neared the arrest scene, the Kenniffs pursued him, but he escaped. Despite a reward of £1000 and a large police manhunt, the Kenniffs were not taken until 23 June at Arrest Creek, south of Mitchell.

1910s

 * 16 November 1911 – George David Silva shot and bludgeoned six members of the Ching family near Mackay, Queensland.
 * 8 June 1913 – 11-year-old Ivy Mitchell was raped and murdered on her way home from school near Samford, Queensland by Ernest Austin; he was the last person in Queensland to be hanged.
 * 1 January 1915 – Two men attacked a picnic train near Broken Hill, in what is known as The Battle of Broken Hill. Both attackers were shot dead by police; four other people were killed and seven wounded.
 * 14 February 1916 – Liverpool riot – An initial strike by 5000 AIF soldiers from Casula near Liverpool became a three-day riot and pub crawl ending at Central and East Sydney, involving commandeered trains, destruction of property, and confrontations with police and military guards. NSW Premier William Holman called a state of emergency and closed Sydney's pubs. About 1000 soldiers were court-martialled and gaoled or discharged from the army. One consequence was the introduction of six o'clock closing, already present in South Australia, following a June 1916 referendum. The NSW "six o'clock swill" saw the rise of sly-grog shops and lasted until 1955 when the closing time was changed to 10 pm following another referendum.
 * December 1917 – early 1918 – Wonnangatta murders – On 23 February 1918, in the remote Wonnangatta Valley in East Gippsland, Victoria, the badly decomposed body of Jim Barclay, the manager of Wonnangatta Station, was found near the station homestead. He had been shot from behind with a shotgun, and John Bamford, a cook and general hand, was assumed to be the culprit. However, Bamford's body was found late in 1918 on the Howitt Plains during a statewide search carried out after the winter snows had melted. He had also been shot from close range. No arrests were ever made, despite the State Government offering a £200 reward.

1920s

 * c. 21 February 1921 – Murder of Chrissie Venn – A 13-year-old girl was found murdered outside the village of North Motton, near Ulverstone, Tasmania.
 * 21 December 1921 – The Gun Alley Murder – 12-year-old Alma Tirtschke was found raped and murdered in Gun Alley, Melbourne. Although 29-year-old Colin Ross was hanged for the crime, a judicial re-assessment, prompted by author Kevin Morgan's book, found that Ross was probably innocent. After DNA testing cleared Ross, he was pardoned posthumously on 22 May 2008.
 * May 1926 – Forrest River massacre – Western Australia – 11 people were murdered in a series of punitive raids after the murder of a pastoralist in the Kimberley region of Western Australia.
 * 27 October 1927 – Squizzy Taylor died after a shootout with rival gangster Snowy Cutmore in Melbourne. Cutmore died in the same shootout.
 * August 1928 – Coniston massacre – Northern Territory police constable William Murray led a series of raids on Aboriginal tribes in response to the murder of a local dingo trapper. The official death toll was 31, but some experts believe it was much higher.
 * 23 February 1929 – Constable John Holeman was shot in Grenfell Street, Adelaide, by John Stanley McGrath while he was taking McGrath's motorcycle and sidecar to the City Watchhouse. Holeman died an hour and a half later. McGrath was sentenced to death, which was later commuted to life imprisonment, and served 15 years.
 * 26 February 1929 – Father Andrew Thomas Edgar Archur murdered his five children and his wife and then set fire to their house in Devonport, Tasmania. He killed himself after the attack.
 * December 1929 – May 1930 – The Murchison Murders – Snowy Rowles murdered three men in Outback Western Australia.

1930s

 * 21 August 1931 – Roderick A. Davies, a 36-year-old carpenter, shot his wife and five children dead before taking his own life in Perth.
 * 1 September 1934 – Pyjama Girl murder – The body of a woman was found beaten and half burnt in a culvert near Albury, New South Wales.
 * 1932–1934 – Caledon Bay crisis – A series of rapes, murders and retaliatory violence involving Japanese, Aboriginals and white Australians in the Northern Territory.
 * 1935 – The Shark Arm Case – The arm of murdered man James Smith was disgorged by a tiger shark being held in a public exhibit in Sydney (unsolved).

1940s

 * 1–2 February 1942 – Boulder & Kalgoorlie bombings – Bombing of a boarding house containing 30 people in Boulder, Western Australia.
 * 3 May – 4 November 1942 – Eddie Leonski, an American soldier stationed in Australia, murdered three women in Melbourne in what came to be called the Brownout murders. He was executed on 9 November 1942, under American military law.
 * 2 July 1948 – Frederick Charles Hall, a 48-year-old labourer shot his six children to death near Glen Innes, New South Wales. He was sentenced to death, later commuted to life imprisonment.
 * 1 December 1948 – The Tamam Shud case. A middle-aged man was found dead, presumably poisoned, at Somerton Beach near Glenelg, South Australia.

1950s

 * 12 October 1950 – 40-year-old Raymond Armanasco killed his wife and five of his children in Collie near Perth. Armanasco was later sentenced to death, later commuted to life imprisonment.
 * 19 September 1952 – Betty Shanks was murdered; she was found the following morning in the front yard of a house on the corner of Thomas and Carberry Streets in The Grange. This is one of the classic unsolved Queensland cases.
 * 18 February 1957 – Marian Majka killed his wife and daughter at Cannon Hill, Queensland. He then waited until neighbour Neil Irvine had gone to work, set fire to his house, and took a semi-automatic rifle across the road and opened fire, killing Irvine's wife and two of their three daughters, and another child. He then shot their dog and turned his gun on passers-by and passing cars, and opened fire on firefighters and police as they arrived. A friend and neighbour, Sergeant Jack Strickfuss (later awarded the George Medal), approached the house and tried to speak to Majka, who then killed himself.
 * 29 July 1957 – At Bega, New South Wales, triple murder, Senior Constable Kenneth Desmond Coussens, his wife and 7-month-old son were killed when a home-made bomb placed on their veranda by Myron Bertram Kelly exploded and demolished the house. Kelly was angry after Coussens had issued him with several traffic fines.
 * December 1957 – Sundown Murders – Sally (Thyra) Bowman, her daughter, Wendy Bowman, and family friend Thomas Whelan were shot and bludgeoned to death at Sundown Station in northern South Australia by Raymond John Bailey.

1960s

 * 7 July 1960 – Eight-year-old Graeme Thorne was kidnapped and murdered days after his parents won the Opera House Lottery.
 * 19 July 1960 – The world's first skyjacking/hijacking occurred on Trans Australia Airlines Flight 408.
 * 5–6 May 1964 – An entire family was found gassed to death in their Warwick Farm home. The victims were Herbert Darnley, his wife, Joyce, and their five children. A note was found on the front door of the scene, indicating a murder-suicide, although no perpetrator was reported as identified.
 * 1964 – The Nedlands Monster – Eric Edgar Cooke murdered eight people and assaulted 20 more during a crime spree in Perth.
 * 24 November 1964 – Glen Sabre Valance was convicted of the murder of Richard Strang at Bordertown. He was the last person hanged in South Australia.
 * 11 January 1965 – Wanda Beach Murders – Two teenage girls were murdered on a southern Sydney beach (unsolved).
 * 1965 – Someone murdered a baby and put it in the mail. A post office worker found the baby when he opened the package, but the culprits were not found.
 * 26 January 1966 – Beaumont children disappearance – Three young children disappeared from Glenelg Beach in Adelaide, South Australia (unsolved).

1970s

 * 1 July 1970 – Elmer Crawford electrocuted and bludgeoned his pregnant wife and three children at their home in Glenroy, Victoria before putting the bodies into his car and pushing the car over a cliff at Loch Ard Gorge.
 * 6 September 1971 – Clifford Cecil Bartholomew shot his wife, Heather, their seven children, his sister-in-law and his nephew to death with a .22-caliber rifle at their dairy farm in Hope Forest, South Australia. This was Australia's worst familicide on record as of May 2018. Initially sentenced to hang, he was instead imprisoned for life, and released on parole in 1979. After his release from prison, Bartholomew assumed a new identity, remarried and had seven adopted children. His new family only learnt about his past years after his death.
 * 6 October 1972 – Faraday School kidnapping – A teacher and her six female pupils were kidnapped for A$1 million ransom in rural Victoria by unemployed friends Edwin John Eastwood and Robert Clyde Boland.
 * 15 November 1972 – Ansett Airlines Flight 232 – Ansett Airlines flight 232 from Adelaide to Alice Springs was hijacked with 28 passengers and a crew of 4 aboard. A gun battle followed at Alice Springs Airport where the hijacker, Miloslav Hrabinec, shot himself, and later
 * 8 March 1973 – Whiskey Au Go Go fire – 15 people were killed in an arson attack on a Brisbane nightclub.
 * 25 August 1973 – Disappearance of Joanne Ratcliffe and Kirste Gordon – A schoolgirl and a pre-schooler vanished from the Adelaide Oval while attending an Australian rules football match.
 * 13 November 1973 – Allan Baker and Kevin Crump were apprehended following a spree of violent crimes in which Ian James Lamb, 43 was robbed and murdered, and Virginia Gai Morse, 36 was kidnapped, raped and murdered. Both were sentenced to life imprisonment without parole.
 * 1974 – Barbara McCulkin and her two daughters disappeared in Brisbane and were never seen again.
 * 22 March 1975 – The Weckert Murders – Townsville couple Noel and Sophia Weckert were murdered on the Bruce Highway between Mackay and Rockhampton while en route to Emu Park for a skydiving event.
 * 23 June 1975 – Murder of brothel madam Shirley Finn in Perth after her threat to expose corrupt practices of W.A. police and politicians. Multiple purported investigations and a 2017 coronial inquest have all failed to throw light on the case.
 * 4 July 1975 – Juanita Nielsen Disappearance – Kings Cross newspaper publisher Juanita Nielsen disappeared after she had run a political campaign against local development and investigated links between developers and criminal activity (unsolved).
 * 25 December 1975 – Savoy Hotel Fire – Reginald John Lyttle set fire to newspapers in a hotel in Kings Cross. Fourteen died from carbon monoxide poisoning and one from burns as a result of the fire.
 * 21 April 1976 – Great Bookie Robbery – A gang of six men stole an undetermined sum (between $6 million and $12 million) from the Victoria Club in Queen Street, Melbourne.
 * 22 September 1976 – 1976 Spring Hill shooting – William Robert Wilson shot 17-year-old Monika Schleus and 18-year-old Marianne Kalatzis dead and wounded Donald William Hepburn Galloway, Mavis Ethel Sanders, Virginia Hollidge and Quinto Alberti on Boundary Street, Spring Hill, Brisbane, in a random shooting. He was captured by heavily armed police later at a house where he was holding 5 people hostage. Wilson served three years in a mental hospital, and after being found fit for trial, pleaded guilty and was sentenced in 1980 to two consecutive life sentences for the murders, and concurrent 10-year sentences for the four attempted murders.
 * 5 January 1977 - Connellan air disaster - Colin Richard Forman, 23 deliberately flew a hijacked Beechcraft Baron aircraft into the headquarters of Connellan Airways, killing 4 persons and injuring 4 more. Forman also died in the crash.
 * 13 January 1977 - Easey Street Murders - Susan Bartlett, 28 and Suzanne Armstrong, 27 were found stabbed to death in their home in Collingwood, Victoria. It was evident that they had been sexually assaulted. The perpetrator/s have never been identified.
 * 18 January 1977 – Weir Family Massacre – Roger Bruce Weir, 32, shot and killed his five children at their home in Echuca, Victoria with a .22 calibre single shot rifle before using the weapon to commit suicide.
 * 15 July 1977 – Donald Mackay disappearance – Anti-drug campaigner Donald Mackay from Griffith, New South Wales disappeared, presumed murdered. In 1986, James Frederick Bazley was sentenced to three consecutive terms of life imprisonment plus 12 years for the murder of Mackay, the murders of Crown witnesses Douglas and Isabel Wilson on 13 April 1979, and an armed robbery.
 * 13 February 1978 – Sydney Hilton bombing – Three men were killed by a bomb blast outside the Commonwealth Heads of Government Regional Meeting in Sydney. Ananda Marga members were imprisoned but later pardoned and released.
 * 22 April 1978 – The Truro murders were uncovered.
 * 11 August 1978 – John Ernest Cribb raped Valda Connell before stabbing her and two of her children, Sally and Damien Connell, at Swansea, NSW.
 * 22 November 1978 – The "Magnetic Drill Gang" stole $1.7 million from a Murwillumbah bank, the biggest bank robbery in Australian history.
 * 1978–1979 – Paul Steven Haigh murdered six victims in order to cover up armed robberies.

1980s

 * 26 April 1980 – Louise and Charmian Faulkner disappearance – A mother and her two-and-a-half-year-old daughter disappeared from outside their St Kilda, Victoria, residence and are presumed murdered (unsolved).
 * May 1980 and November 1981 – Tynong North and Frankston Murders – Six women were killed in Victoria (unsolved).
 * 23 June 1980 – Family Court judge Justice David Opas was shot dead at his home by an unknown gunman.
 * 24 September 1981 – Campsie murders – Fouad Daoud killed his wife, four of his children, and then himself in Campsie, New South Wales.
 * 22 June 1982 – Perth Mint Swindle – Forty-nine gold bars (68 kg in total) valued at up to A$653,000 (A$6.4 million at 2023 gold prices) were stolen from the Perth Mint in Western Australia. Three brothers, Ray, Peter and Brian Mickelberg, were found guilty of the conspiracy and sentenced in 1983 to twenty, sixteen and twelve years' imprisonment, respectively; all three were later exonerated.
 * 10 November 1982 – Lawyer Randall Askeland murdered his wife, Wendy June Askeland, by bludgeoning her to death by with an iron bar while she was asleep in bed at their home in Launceston, Tasmania. He was sentenced to life in prison.
 * 23 June 1983 – Martin Leach bound, gagged and stabbed Charmaine Ariet and bound, gagged, stabbed, raped and slit the throat of her cousin Janice Carnegie before burying their bodies in a gully at Berry Springs.
 * 18 August 1983 – Douglas Crabbe rammed his 25-ton Mack truck into a motel bar at the base of Uluru, Northern Territory, killing 5 people and injuring 16.
 * 19 September 1983 – 16-year-old Aboriginal boy John Pat was beaten to death by police officers in Roebourne, Western Australia. The officers were charged with manslaughter, but acquitted by an all-white jury. The killing of John Pat was one of the incidents that led to the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody in 1991.
 * 6 October 1983 – Edwina Boyle disappeared from her Dandenong home. It was determined that her husband, Frederick Boyle, had shot her in the back of the head with a .22-calibre rifle while engaging in an affair with a neighbour. He had concealed her remains in a barrel until they were found in 2006.
 * 31 January 1984 – Sydney's 1984 'Dog Day Afternoon' – 35-year-old Hakki Bahadir Atahan went on a bank robbery spree, taking 11 people hostage and holding police at bay for several hours before being shot dead by Detective Senior Constable Steve Canelis on the Spit Bridge.
 * 15 April 1984 – Bombing of the Parramatta Family law court building, followed by bombings at the homes of two judges in Sydney later in the year. The bomb which was detonated at the law court building did not injure anyone. However, one of the home bombings killed a judge's wife, and the other injured Justice Richard Gee. The incidents are largely considered unsolved.
 * 1 June 1984 – Wahroonga murders – A Wahroonga man, John Brandon, murdered his three children, his wife and his mother before killing himself.
 * 14 August 1984 – Fine Cotton Affair – A syndicate of trainers and bookmakers substituted one horse for another at a Brisbane horse race.
 * 2 September 1984 – Milperra massacre – Two rival bikie gangs staged a shoot-out in the car park of a south-western Sydney hotel. Seven people were shot dead and 28 others injured.
 * 6 November 1984 – Murder of Kylie Maybury – Six-year-old Melbourne schoolgirl Kylie Maybury was kidnapped, raped and strangled while she ran an errand to buy a bag of sugar for her parent. Gregory Keith Davies sentenced to minimum 28 years for her murder
 * 9 May 1985 – Christopher Flannery disappearance – Known as "Mr-Rent-A-Kill", Melbourne hitman Christopher Dale Flannery disappeared without trace, presumed murdered (unsolved.)
 * 2 February 1986 – Anita Cobby murder – Sydney nurse Anita Cobby was abducted, robbed, raped, brutalised and murdered by career criminals John Travers, Michael Murdoch and brothers Michael, Gary and Leslie Murphy.
 * 6 February 1986 – Sallie-Anne Huckstepp murder – Sydney sex worker and police informant Sallie-Anne Huckstepp was found strangled and shot in Centennial Park. Convicted murderer Arthur "Neddy" Smith was charged with ordering the killing but was acquitted (unsolved).
 * 27 March 1986 – Russell Street bombing – Four men planted a car bomb outside police headquarters in Russell Street, Melbourne; a 22-year-old policewoman was killed in the explosion and 22 others injured.
 * 8 May 1986 – Sharron Phillips' disappearance – 20-year-old Sharron Phillips went missing after her car ran out of petrol on Ipswich Road at Wacol, Queensland (unsolved).
 * 19 August 1986 – Samantha Knight disappearance – Nine-year-old Samantha Knight disappeared from a Bondi street; it was claimed by her kidnapper, convicted child sex offender Michael Guider, that he had accidentally overdosed her on sedatives. He received 17 years' imprisonment with a non-parole period of 12 years for manslaughter, to be served cumulatively with sentences for child sex offences. Knight's remains have not been found.
 * 6 October 1986 – Mary Nielson, first victim of David and Catherine Birnie, was killed. The Birnies murdered three more women before being captured, and are suspected of killing up to eight women.
 * 23 January 1987 – Richard Maddrell shot four teenage women to death with his shotgun in the Sydney suburb of Pymble.
 * 15 July 1987 – 21-year-old Rodney Thomas Clarke raped nine-year-old Deborah Keegan three times before suffocating her in her home in western Sydney, which she shared with her three sisters and mother.
 * 9 August 1987 – Hoddle Street massacre – 19-year-old Julian Knight killed 7 people and injured 19 at random in Hoddle Street, Melbourne, before surrendering to police.
 * 19 June 1987 – Top End Kimberly shootings – German tourist Joseph Schwab shot 5 people to death in the Top End before being shot dead by police.
 * 10 October 1987 – Canley Vale shootings – John Tran shot 5 people to death in Canley Vale, New South Wales before killing himself.
 * 27 November 1987 – 12-year-old Sian Kingi was abducted, raped, tortured, stabbed and strangled in Noosa, Queensland by married couple Barrie Watts and Valmae Beck.
 * 8 December 1987 – Queen Street massacre – Frank Vitkovic shot eight people dead and seriously injured five others in the Australia Post building in Queen Street, Melbourne before leaping to his death from an 11th-floor window.
 * 8 September 1988 – Murder of Janine Balding – 21-year-old Janine Balding was abducted, robbed, raped and murdered by five homeless youths in Sydney's west. Stephen "Shorty" Jamieson, 16-year-old Matthew Elliott, and 14-year-old Bronson Blessington were convicted of Balding's murder and sentenced to life imprisonment plus 25 years without the possibility of parole.
 * 25 September 1988 – Dennis Rostron shot his wife, Cecily, his two-year-old son, Preston, and one-year-old son, Zarack, and his in-laws, Dick and Dolly Murrumurru, to death at Molgawo, a remote Arnhem Land outstation near Gunbalanya, Northern Territory.
 * 12 October 1988 – Walsh Street police shootings – Two police officers were executed in Melbourne (unsolved).
 * 10 January 1989 – Colin Winchester murder – The Assistant Commissioner of the Australian Federal Police was shot dead outside his home in Canberra. In 1995 former public servant David Harold Eastman was convicted of the murder, but he was acquitted in a retrial in 2018.
 * October 1989 – Sylvia Jill Cave disappeared while on holidays in Melbourne. In June 1993, her remains were discovered at a property in Mount Eliza. Her American boyfriend, Michael Jeffrey Rice, was sentenced to ten years' imprisonment with a non-parole period of six years for manslaughter.
 * November 1989 – Leigh Leigh murder – Newcastle teenager Leigh Leigh was raped and murdered at a party on a Newcastle beach.
 * 20 October 1989 – Tracey Wigginton lured and killed Edward Baldock, nearly decapitating him. Wigginton allegedly wanted to drink his blood. This was described as "one of the most brutal and bizarre crimes Australia has ever seen".
 * 1989–1990 – North Shore Granny Murders – John Wayne Glover murdered six elderly women across Sydney's North Shore.

1990s

 * 30 August 1990 – Surry Hills massacre – Paul Anthony Evers killed 5 people and injured 7 with a 12-gauge pump-action shotgun at a public housing precinct in Surry Hills, Sydney before surrendering to police.
 * 4 December 1990 - Corin Dam triple-murder suicide - Darryl Gallagher killed is wife, Judith Gallagher, and two children, Jaime (8) and Kari (2), along with himself. After being let free on bail from domestic violence charges, he kidnapped his wife and children from their home, bound them, and drove to a location near Corin Dam, ACT, where he attached a bicycle tube to the exhaust pipe of the car and ran it into the car through the rear passenger window. The family died from carbon monoxide poisoning.
 * 13 April 1991 – Karmein Chan was kidnapped and murdered (unsolved).
 * 29 June 1991 – Six-year-old Sheree Beasley was kidnapped and raped and murdered by serial sex offender Robert Lowe at Rosebud.
 * 4 July 1991 – World-famous heart surgeon Victor Chang was shot dead by two Malaysian men in Sydney during an extortion attempt.
 * 17 August 1991 – Strathfield massacre – Wade Frankum shot six people dead and stabbed another to death before killing himself in a Sydney shopping centre.
 * 29 July 1992 – Burwood triple murder – Ashley Coulston tied up Peter Dempsey, Kerryn Henstridge and Anne Smerdon and restrained them with handcuffs and thumbcuffs before shooting them execution-style in the back of the head in a house in Burwood, Victoria.
 * 16 August 1992 – 18-year-old Clinton Trezise was bludgeoned to death with a hammer by John Justin Bunting at Bunting's Salisbury North home in the first of the twelve Snowtown killings.
 * 19 August 1992 – Andrew Garforth kidnapped, raped and drowned nine-year-old schoolgirl Ebony Simpson at Bargo.
 * 1988–1992 – The Backpacker murders – Ivan Milat murdered seven tourists and buried their bodies in the Belanglo State Forest.
 * 27 October 1992 – Central Coast massacre – Malcolm George Baker went on a spree killing shooting six people dead and injuring one with a 12-gauge pump-action shotgun in Central Coast, New South Wales. He surrendered to police and was later sentenced to six consecutive terms of life imprisonment plus 25 years, without the possibility of parole.
 * 7 February 1993 – Murders of the MacKenzie family – Karen McKenzie and her three children were murdered at their remote rural property in Western Australia by former farmhand, William Patrick Mitchell.
 * 30 March 1993 – Cangai siege – Murderers Leonard Leabeater, Robert Steele and Raymond Bassett held hostages in a siege at Cangai, near Grafton, threatening to kill people indiscriminately. Leabeater killed himself the following day, while Steele and Bassett surrendered to police. Steele was sentenced to five consecutive life sentences plus 25 years without parole, while Bassett was sentenced to two consecutive life sentences with a non-parole period of 34 years. Steele hanged himself in prison on 23 December 1994.
 * June and July 1993 – The Frankston serial killer, Paul Denyer, murdered three women before being captured.
 * 21 August 1993 – John Lascano shot three people dead at a gunshop in the Melbourne suburb of Springvale before stealing a large quantity of firearms and ammunition and setting the store on fire.
 * 29 November 1993 – Jolimont Centre siege – Felipe Ruizdiaz shot and wounded Geoff McGibbon at Dickson before crashing his vehicle, which was rigged with petrol and gas canisters, through the front glass walls of the Jolimont Centre in Canberra. During a two-hour siege at the centre, Ruizdiaz shot at police and rescue workers using a 12-gauge shotgun before setting fire to the building and committing suicide. The fire and explosions hampered rescue and police efforts and caused several million dollars' worth of damage to the centre.
 * In 1994, Charles III then Prince of Wales, visited Australia. He was giving a speech in Darling harbour during the Australia day celebrations. David Kang ran up to the Prince and fired two blanks before falling onto the ground; he was arrested by multiple police officers. The Prince was unhurt and was ushered off the podium.
 * 2 March 1994 – NCA Bombing – A parcel bomb exploded at the Adelaide office of the National Crime Authority, killing Detective Sergeant Geoffrey Bowen and injuring lawyer Peter Wallis.
 * 2 May 1994 – Police went to arrest criminal Tony Grosser and were shot at. One of the officers, Derrick Mcmanus was shot fourteen times.
 * 22 August 1994 – In a double murder-suicide in Stirling, Western Australia, Kyle and Latisha O'Neill were shot dead by their father Norm while they slept.
 * 5 September 1994 – Sydney politician John Newman was assassinated outside his home on the orders of political rival Phuong Ngo.
 * 29 October 1995 – Ten-year-old Leanne Oliver and nine-year-old Patricia Leedie were raped and beaten to death at Warana Beach, Queensland by convicted sex offender Paul Stephen Osbourne, a local handyman and mechanic.
 * 25 January 1996 – Hillcrest murders – Peter May shot and killed his three children, his estranged wife and her parents in the Brisbane suburb of Hillcrest before killing himself.
 * January 1996 – March 1997 – The Claremont serial murders – The murders of two young Australian women and the unresolved disappearance of a third in 1996 and 1997 in Claremont, Western Australia
 * 28 April 1996 – Port Arthur massacre – Martin Bryant killed 35 people at Port Arthur, Tasmania and injured 21 others in a shooting spree.
 * 14 September 1996 – Keli Lane was sentenced to 18 years in prison for the murder of her two-day-old daughter, Tegan, whose birth she had concealed.
 * 10 October 1996 – Tjandamurra O'Shane was set on fire in a school playground in Cairns, Queensland by unemployed drifter Paul Wade Streeton.
 * 15 June 1997 – Jaidyn Leskie, 15 months old, was murdered and found dumped at a dam near Moe, Victoria (unsolved).
 * 20 September 1997 – 22-year-old Japanese woman Michiko Okuyama murdered by a 16-year-old boy in Cairns, Queensland.
 * 6 October 1997 – Bega schoolgirl murders – 14-year-old Lauren Barry and 16-year-old Nichole Collins were kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered by New Zealand-born career criminal Lindsay Beckett and Victorian prison escapee Leslie Camilleri.
 * 16 January 1998 to 15 June 2009 – Melbourne gangland killings – A series of 35 murders of crime figures and their associates began with the slaying of Alphonse Gangitano in his home, most likely by Jason Moran. The last victim was Des Moran, who was murdered in Ascot Vale on 15 June 2009.
 * 12 June 1998 and 19 June 1998 – Mark Valera tortured and murdered Albion Park shopkeeper David O'Hearn and former Wollongong Lord Mayor Frank Arkell.
 * 16 August 1998 – Victorian police officers Gary Silk and Rodney Miller were shot dead in an ambush by serial killer Bandali Debs and accomplice Jason Joseph Roberts in the Moorabbin Police murders.
 * May 1999 – The Snowtown murders were discovered when the remains of eight bodies were found in six acid-filled barrels in an abandoned bank vault in Snowtown, South Australia. The remains of two more bodies were later discovered under a brick rainwater tank stand at a Salisbury North property, bringing the total number of victims to 12.

2000s

 * 1972 – 15 September 2000 – Serial paedophile Geoffrey Robert Dobbs molested at least 63 girls in Queensland before his capture on 15 September 2000.
 * 29 February 2000 – NSW woman, Katherine Knight stabbed, skinned, partially cooked and cannibalised her de facto husband John Price in Aberdeen, New South Wales. She also tried to serve his meat to their unsuspecting children but was stopped by police.
 * 28 May 2000 – Keith William Allan was murdered in a contract killing in Melbourne.
 * Winter 2000 – Sydney gang rapes – A series of ethnically motivated gang rapes by Lebanese origin youths swept Sydney's west.
 * 23 June 2000 – Childers Palace Fire – Robert Paul Long set fire to a backpackers' hostel in Childers, Queensland; 15 people were killed.
 * 10 July 2001 – Sef Gonzales beat, stabbed and strangled his sister Clodine, mother Mary and father Teddy within a two-and-a-half-hour time frame in their North Ryde home in Sydney, NSW.
 * 14 July 2001 – British tourists Joanne Lees and Peter Falconio were assaulted near Barrow Creek, Northern Territory by Bradley John Murdoch. Although Falconio's body has never been found, Murdoch was found guilty of his murder.
 * 4 April 2002 – Society Murders – Matthew Wales drugged and bludgeoned his mother, Margaret Wales-King, and stepfather, Paul King, to death before burying them in a shallow grave at Marysville, Victoria.
 * 14 October 2002 – Dr. Margaret Tobin, the South Australian head of Mental Health Services, was shot dead by former colleague Jean Eric Gassy as she walked out of a lift in her Adelaide office building.
 * 21 October 2002 – Monash University shooting – A student Huan Xiang opened fire in a tutorial room, killing two and injuring five.
 * April 2003 – Pong Su incident – A North Korean freighter was boarded after a four-day chase and taken into custody in connection with a worldwide heroin smuggling operation.
 * 15 September 2003 – Sydney Double Murders – Two Singaporeans murdered in their flat in Sydney.
 * 7 December 2003 – Daniel Morcombe was abducted from under an overpass on the Sunshine Coast, Queensland while waiting for a bus; his remains were not found until 2012. Brett Peter Cowan was convicted of Morcombe's murder in 2014 and sentenced to life in prison.
 * 23 March 2004 – John Sharpe murdered his pregnant wife and two-year-old daughter with a speargun at Mornington, Victoria.
 * 11 February 2005 – Melbourne woman Maria Korp was found in a coma in the boot of her car. Her husband, Joe, and his lover, Tania Herman, were subsequently charged with her murder after Mrs Korp's life-support was switched off. Joe Korp subsequently hanged himself in the garage of his home.
 * 26 February to 1 March 2005 – Macquarie Fields riots – Residents of the southwestern Sydney suburb rioted in response to the deaths of two youths during a police pursuit. The youths had been passengers in a stolen car being driven by a known criminal. Residents believed police were unfairly persecuting local youths.
 * 1 June 2005 – Indonesian embassy bioterrorism hoax
 * 4 September 2005 – Fathers' Day drowning – Robert Farquharson drove his car into a farm dam between Winchelsea and Geelong, Victoria, drowning his three children, Bailey (2), Tyler (7) and Jai (10). Police found the boys still strapped in their seatbelts. Robert is currently imprisoned for a minimum of 33 years for murder.
 * December 2005 – 2005 Cronulla riots – Rioting between Anglo Australians and Arab Australians was sparked by the reported beating of Surf Life Savers the previous week by several individuals of "Middle-Eastern appearance"; retaliatory and counter-retaliatory violence continued for two weeks.
 * 18 February 2006 – Cardross road crash – Thomas Graham Towle crashed his car at high speed into a group of 13 teenagers, killing six and injuring seven near the town of Cardross, Victoria.
 * 26 June 2006 – Canning Vale murder – Eight-year-old Sofia Rodriguez-Urrutia-Shu was raped and murdered in a suburban Perth shopping mall by Dante Wyndham Arthurs.
 * 18 December 2006 – Murder of Stacey Mitchell – The 16-year-old British-born girl was murdered on 18 December 2006 by couple Jessica Stasinowsky and Valerie Parashumti.
 * 18 June 2007 – Melbourne CBD shooting – Christopher Wayne Hudson opened fire on three people, killing one and seriously wounding the other two. The three had intervened when Hudson was assaulting his girlfriend at a busy Melbourne intersection during the morning peak. He gave himself up to police in Wallan, Victoria on 20 June.
 * 7 February 2009 – 2009 "Black Saturday" bushfires in Victoria, some of which were found to have been lit by arsonists. The fires killed 173 people in total.
 * 18 July 2009 – Lin family murders – Five members of the Lin family were found dead in their home in Epping, New South Wales.
 * 3 September 2009 – Murder of Michael McGurk in Sydney, a contract killing.
 * December 2009 – Deaths of Karlie Pearce-Stevenson and Khandalyce Pearce – A mother and her two-year-old infant were killed, and the killer subsequently used the dead mother's identity to withdraw roughly $90,000 from her bank accounts.

2010s

 * 10 April 2010 – Rajesh Osborne shot and killed his three children before killing himself in Roxburgh Park, Victoria.
 * 28 April 2011 – 2011 Hectorville siege – Donato Anthony Corbo shot Kobus and Annetjie Snyman and their son-in-law, Luc Mombers, to death and seriously wounded Mr Mombers' 14-year-old son, Marcel, and a police officer at Hectorville, South Australia, before being arrested after an eight-hour stand-off.
 * 18 November 2011 – Roger Kingsley Dean deliberately set fire to two rooms at the Quakers Hill Nursing Home to hide his theft of prescription drugs; 11 residents were killed in the blaze and eight others injured.
 * 22 September 2012 – Radio producer Jill Meagher was raped and murdered by convicted criminal Adrian Bayley. She was abducted near her home in the Melbourne suburb of Brunswick.
 * 8 March 2013 – Queen Street mall siege – Lee Matthew Hiller entered a shopping mall on Queen Street, Brisbane, armed with a handgun and threatened shoppers and staff, causing a 90-minute siege which ended when he was shot and wounded in the arm by a police officer from the Special Emergency Response Team.
 * 12 February 2014 – 11-year-old, sixth-grade schoolboy Luke Batty was bashed with a cricket bat and stabbed to death by his father at his local cricket practice in Tyabb on the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria, apparently as retribution against ex-wife Rosie Batty.
 * 28 June 2014 – 32-year-old woman originally from Hong Kong, Renea Yuk-ling Lau, was raped and murdered on her way to work in the morning in the Melbourne CBD. Her attacker, homeless man Scott Miller, was sentenced to 33 years in prison.
 * 9 September 2014 – Lockhart massacre – Geoff Hunt shot and killed his wife and three children before killing himself on a farm in Lockhart, near Wagga Wagga, New South Wales.
 * 23 September 2014 − 2014 Endeavour Hills stabbings – Two police officers, one Victorian, one Australian Federal Police (AFP), were stabbed and wounded outside Endeavour Hills Police station in Melbourne by 18-year-old Numan Haider, who was shot dead by a wounded officer.
 * 15 December 2014 – Lindt Cafe siege – A terrorist attack where seventeen people were taken hostage in a cafe in Martin Place, Sydney, by Man Haron Monis. The hostage crisis was resolved in the early hours of 16 December, sixteen hours after it commenced, when armed police stormed the premises. Monis and two hostages were killed in the course of the crisis.
 * 19 December 2014 – Cairns child killings – Eight children aged 18 months to 15 years were stabbed to death in a home in Cairns, Queensland by the mother of seven of the children and aunt to the eighth.
 * 17 March 2015 – 17-year-old schoolgirl Masa Vukotic was murdered (stabbed 49 times) in a park in Doncaster, Melbourne. Her attacker, Sean Price, had randomly decided to murder her for sociopathic reasons. Price was sentenced to life in prison. Sean Price is a serial criminal, with a lengthy history of criminal charges of various types, including murder, rape, and armed robbery, beginning at least in 2002. Price had reportedly received 200 criminal convictions before murdering Vukotic. Shortly after murdering Vukotic, Price went on a crime spree, including rape, robbery, and an attempted carjacking.
 * 2 October 2015 – 2015 Parramatta shooting – Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar, a 15-year-old boy, shot and killed Curtis Cheng, an unarmed police civilian finance worker, outside the New South Wales Police headquarters in Parramatta. Jabar was shot and killed by special constables protecting the police station.
 * 13 June 2016 – 18-year-old Aaron Pajich was stabbed to death in Orelia, Western Australia. Two women were convicted of his murder and sentenced to life in prison.
 * 20 January 2017 – January 2017 Melbourne car attack – Dimitrious "Jimmy" Gargasoulas stabbed his brother and then drove erratically in Melbourne's CBD, hitting thirty pedestrians on a footpath, killing six.
 * 5 June 2017 – 2017 Brighton siege – Somali immigrant Yacqub Khayre took a female sex worker hostage in the suburb of Brighton in Melbourne, and then shot the apartments clerk dead, before being killed in a shoot-out with police.
 * 21 December 2017 – December 2017 Melbourne car attack – Around 4:30 pm AEDT, a car struck pedestrians at the corner of Flinders Street and Elizabeth Street in Melbourne, Victoria. Nineteen people, including the driver, were injured. One later died.
 * 11 May 2018 – Osmington shooting – The bodies of three adults and four children were found shot dead on a farm in the town of Osmington, Western Australia.
 * 13 June 2018 – 22-year-old comedian Eurydice Dixon was raped and murdered on a soccer pitch in Princes Park, Carlton. Her attacker, Jaymes Todd, was sentenced to life in prison.
 * 9 November 2018 – Melbourne stabbing attack – A Somalian-born man armed with a knife went on a rampage in Bourke Street, Melbourne, stabbing three people. One man died, while the other two victims were wounded. The perpetrator was shot once in the chest by police and died the same evening.
 * 16 January 2019 – 21-year-old international student of Palestinian ethnicity and Israeli citizenship, Aya Maasarwe, was raped and murdered on her way home from a comedy club in Bundoora, North Melbourne. Her attacker, Codey Herrmann, was sentenced to 36 years in prison.
 * 16 April 2019 – 56-year-old Dr Luping Zeng died after being shot in the garage of his MacGregor, Queensland home while his wife and daughters were inside.
 * 24 April 2019 – 32-year-old woman Natalina Angok, originally from South Sudan, was murdered by her boyfriend Christopher Bell in the Melbourne Chinatown, in the CBD. Bell reportedly suffered from schizophrenia and had been released from a psychiatric hospital a week before the murder. Bell had a history of committing domestic violence.  Bell was sentenced to 21 years in prison.
 * 25 May 2019 – 25-year-old woman Courtney Herron was murdered in Royal Park, Melbourne. Her attacker was Henry Hammond. Herron, an "aspiring social worker", had met Hammond the previous day, and she had been friendly towards him, spending the night with him at a restaurant and paying for his meal. Herron and Hammond had been walking together in the park several hours later, at which point Hammond brutally bashed her to death with a tree branch over the course of fifty minutes. Hammond was found not guilty of the murder on account of his schizophrenia; instead, he was ordered to spend 25 years in a psychiatric hospital. Hammond had been convicted of other crimes beforehand, including domestic violence (convicted in December 2018). Both Herron and Hammond were homeless at the time.
 * 4 June 2019 – 2019 Darwin shooting – A man shot 5 people in Darwin, Northern Territory, killing 4 and wounding 1.

2020s

 * 19 February 2020 – Hannah Clarke and her three children were attacked in a car in Camp Hill, Queensland by her estranged husband, Rowan Baxter. The three children died at the scene and Clarke died in hospital. Baxter, who was known to have a history of domestic violence, died by suicide at the scene.
 * 1 May 2020 – South Hedland stabbing attack – A man went on a stabbing rampage in a hotel, McDonald's carpark and a shopping centre in Port Hedland stabbing and wounding seven people. He was later shot dead by police.
 * In July 2021, Australian police together with American and other countries police forces arrested dozens of drug smugglers and murderers worldwide in what was known as the ANOM operation.
 * 16 October to 3 November 2021 – Cleo Smith, a four-year-old girl from Carnarvon, disappeared on 16 October 2021 from a campsite in the Gascoyne region of Western Australia (WA). Police allege that she was abducted by a 36-year-old man. She was found alive and well on 3 November, after the man's home was raided by police.
 * 11 or 12 January 2022 – Killing of Charlise Mutten – The murder of a 9 year old schoolgirl by her stepfather Justin Stein, who has since been charged.
 * 12 December 2022 – Wieambilla police shootings – The murder of Queensland Police officers Constables Matthew Arnold and Rachel McCrow, and a neighbour, Alan Dare in Wieambilla. The perpetrators, brothers Gareth and Nathaniel Train, and Gareth's wife, Stacey Train were later shot and killed by Queensland police after a six hour siege.
 * 29 July 2023 – 2023 Leongatha mushroom poisoning – A suspected poisoning that resulted in 3 deaths.
 * 13 April 2024 – 2024 Westfield Bondi Junction stabbings – A mass stabbing took place at Westfield Bondi Junction shopping centre leaving six people dead and twelve others injured. The perpetrator was shot dead by police.
 * 15 April 2024 – 2024 Wakeley church stabbing – A 16-year-old boy perpetrated a knife attack at Christ The Good Shepherd Church in Wakeley.The attacker first stabbing Bishop Mari Emmanuel and Father Isaac Royel before injuring another church goers in the terrorist attack.

title: Timeline of major crimes in Australia


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Echani Handmaiden

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was, kept as a redirect - SimonP 03:23, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Echani Handmaiden
The only link was from Bao-Dur which also linked to The last Handmaiden. In turn, both of those links only served as redirects to List of minor Star Wars Jedi characters. I removed the link from Bao-Dur here and made the redirect more specific. Ubermonkey 15:42, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Styles Vote

Since those opposed to the prefixed style seem intent on enforcing a shaky concensus before it is ratified I suggest you voice your opinions here pro or con Manual of Style (biographies)/Survey on Style-Prefixed Honorary Titles/Ratification Trödel| talk 04:34, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, the survey is over, so there are some people going around and fixing some of the pages. Personally, I still think each page should decide, or, in our case, put the styles that are used for the pope at the Pope article. We are still introducing the styles as a fact/perk with the office, but we still do not have them in front of the Pope's name. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:36, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

There is no current consensus on a new convention, which is the purpose of the ratification vote. The prior policy of prefixing style is overturned, and it is presently up to the editors of each page how style should be addressed. Whig 05:16, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

That's a unique theory. You vote to decide whether to create a new convention to replace the old one. People disagree on what to do, and so you declare that the old convention is overturned! Surely logic says that if there is no agreement on what to do, one leaves the current convention in situ and try to find a consensus over whether to replace it and if so with what. But if no-one can decide, and one declares the old convention dead, what was the point in having the vote in the first place? All one has to do is call a vote and bingo, the old rules are out. Votes on wikipedia do not operate on a 'lets throw out the rules and start again' basis. They operate on the basis of 'lets see if we can agree an alternative'. I think Whig as in so many things lately is as confused as he has gotten everyone else at this stage. In any case there might have been a consensus if there had been a logical vote using a voting method that people could make head or tail of. About the only consensus reached was to never ever use that damn voting method again. Fear ÉIREANN (talk) 05:31, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

 * It certainly is an outrageous position Jtdirl advances! A minority position was once written into the MoS w/o any prior consensus (prefixed styles; but in practice only for European Christians). A vote was conducted that showed this position to be opposed by most Wikipedians (well, those that voted).   Therefore we ought to keep the old minority position (because no other positive MoS guideline has yet established 75% support).  Somehow the deduction doesn't work in my mind Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 06:07, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

 * Firstly it is not an outrageous position. One doesn't propose a law and say that if fails the all the law is abolished. One proposes a change to replace the old rule. If one fails, then the old one exists until one can pass a replacement. Secondly the idea that it was being pushed for European Christians is ignorant, illinformed and ridiculous. Thirdly it was no more a minority position than the one now. In fact then those people participating did find a consensus (which I opposed, BTW. I was not happy at the time using styles). Fourthly I am not saying keep the minority position. I am saying keeping trying for a consensus. But a free-for-all, any free-for-all, will simply lead to edit wars all over wikipedia. I am saying 'keep working for a consensus. When we have it (and with a less ridiculous voting system, and a clearly thought through approach, rather than the hamfisted one we got) then enforce it. But right now there is no consensus for anything, which means there is no consensus either for removing styles, using styles or deleting styles. So to do anything in the circumstances would be a recipe for chaos. (And BTW I would be saying the same thing if the vote had been on another issue also.) With time a longterm consensus may arrive if we work on it. But a free-for-all will kill the issue stone dead and leave pages all over the place an incoherent mess. What we need is a proper vote, using a proper voting method, asking the proper questions -

 * Styles - yes or no?
 * If yes - use or explain?
 * If explain - what form?
 * If use, how?
 * If styles are used: What categories should they be used for, in what context, for what office-holders?
 * None of those questions were adequately explored in a coherent voting methodology. Instead we got poorly worded alternatives that did not the clarify the key questions when, who and in what context. And we got a so-called voting system that could not have been worse; one that few people understood and which was relying on one person to issue pronouncements as to what the result was. That isn't democratic and that is not how you take reach a consensus. That is simply how you produce a meaningless mess. About the only thing we have learnt is that that voting system should be binned and never ever used on wikipedia anywhere again.

 * Lulu, we can keep working for a consensus, and maybe find it. But a free-for-all will set the task of finding a consensus back months or longer. And that is in none of our interests. Fear ÉIREANN[[Image:Flag of Ireland.svg|25px]] (talk) 06:36, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

 * The old convention has no consensus, no majority, not even a plurality. Suggesting that prefixed styles ought to be retained when they have been clearly rejected by a majority as POV, because a new convention is not yet established is rather strange. Your personal opposition to the voting method used is not a consensus, either. It worked well enough to prevent tactical deception from succeeding. Whig 05:48, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

There was no tactical deception, only self deception on your part, and an inability to recognise that tactical voting is a standard part of any election. In that case, we'll simply call a new vote, and by doing that that will have the effect of overturning your 'non-consensus' decision by the sheer fact that a vote is taking place, whatever the outcome. There was no consensus on changing the system, which is what we were voting on. Fear ÉIREANN (talk) 06:02, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I will not continue this discussion here, but those who are interested in seeing what Jtdirl is talking about may wish to view the archived discussion. Whig 06:29, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Since whig (yet again) brought up this lie, let me be quite clear. Whig used a voting system that registered the support being attached to different options. Not understanding it a lot of people voted along First Past the Post linesfor one option and stopped. I pointed out openly on their talk pages that it was useful in helping reach aa consensus decision that they recorded all their votes in order of preference. As the users in question seemed more au fait with FPtP than proportional systems, I pointed out that in proportional systems one can also vote tactically. I also pointed out that tactical voting was a double-edged sword that can backfire. I never suggested to anyone how anyone should vote, never told them they must cast a full vote, never said they must vote tactically. Whig interpreted this as an attempt to corrupt his beloved voting system (the fact that so many people needed to be told that they should vote for every option and not just one shows much confusion his system caused) and has repeatedly accused me of trying to deceive and corrupt his vote. I did no such thing, as people on all sides of the discussion about styles on the page have made clear. But Whig keeps putting about the lie that I did all over the place, as here above where he wrote about tactical deception. It is a complete lie and I am fed up having to deal with his lies. Fear ÉIREANN (talk) 06:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC) (Note: This paragraph was deleted twice by Whig and restored by Mackensen and then Proteus.)

 * Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Whig 19:59, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

 * You have accused me of lying, deception, trying to rig your vote on a whole range of pages. It got so bad even your supporters had to tell you to stop it. Jguk has been accused of vandalism. Yet when anyone ever stands up to your and Lulu's abuse, you suddenly proclaim no personal attacks. Any chance that you might begin to practice what you regularly preach? Or does that rule mean 'no attacks on Whig while Whig can abuse and defame anyone he wants'? Fear ÉIREANN[[Image:Flag of Ireland.svg|25px]] (talk) 00:03, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I did not accuse you of lying or deception. What I did say can be read in the archived discussion referenced above. Whig 05:12, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

From the

 * Since this is going nowhere, I am going to try my method out:

Vote or Die! (Now Closed)
Should the style "His Holiness" be used in front of Pope Benedict XVI's name (as in His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI)?

Place a vote in a section of your choice, and if you want to state why, keep it brief. Thanks. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 22:28, 15 May 2005 (UTC) (The vote closes in two weeks and one day (May 30th). Zscout370 (Sound Off) 22:53, 15 May 2005 (UTC).) The votes is finished. I will publish the results in a few minutes. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 15:38, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Support

 * 1) JYolkowski // talk 22:59, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Ann Heneghan 23:02, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Fear ÉIREANN[[Image:Flag of Ireland.svg|25px]] (talk) 23:45, 15 May 2005 (UTC) Under wikipedia's normal rules, a consensus is only changed when there is a consensus for change. Under the deletion of categories, for example, a lack of consensus to change means the default 'no change' and 55% there has been ruled as not being a consensus. The vote on the issue on wikipedia only had 53% support for a change in policy. That therefore is not a consensus, which means that default rule applies, which is to stick by the previously agreed policy of using styles on all relevant articles. Articles on popes here have styles. It is the agreed overall policy. Fear ÉIREANN[[Image:Flag of Ireland.svg|25px]] (talk) 23:45, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Basileus (talk) 02:26, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Coemgenus 02:28, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) Rangeley 03:59, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 7) Evil Monkey∴Hello 04:02, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * //83 04:21, 16 May 2005 (UTC)  (Anonymous votes don't count - even when the voter votes the same way as I do!  This attempted vote came from IP 83.109.130.50, and even a bit of the address is missing in the vote.  I got it from the diff .  The user was not logged in.  I'm reformatting, so that the vote number is removed.  That should make the valid votes easier to count. Maybe user 83.109.130.50 might log in and revote, or validate this one?  Ann Heneghan 23:03, 18 May 2005 (UTC) )
 * 1) **If the vote came from an Annon, then make it invlaid. The VFD process also works like that. I will go through every vote to make sure they were made in accordance to Wikilaw and then I will certify the results here and at the MoS page. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:29, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Gentgeen 05:01, 16 May 2005 (UTC). However, it should not be bold, and should link to the His Holiness article.
 * 3) Per Jtdirl. Whig's duplicity in this matter astounds me. Mackensen (talk) 05:04, 16 May 2005 (UTC) (Note: The comment in this vote was deleted by Whig and Samboy and restored by Proteus twice)
 * Yes, since it is his official title. Samboy 06:55, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Yes. I'm also utterly appalled that Whig has been deleting people's comments on this talk page. Proteus (Talk) 07:42, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) *The reason Whig has been deleting people's comments is because people have been directing personal attacks against him. See No personal attacks and Remove personal attacks Samboy 01:27, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) **Actually the comment that Whig deleted (that was being referenced above) was the 1st and 2nd reversions - those reversions elicited the duplicitous comment - although borderline the original paragraph contained alot of detail and the personal attack could have been deleted without deleting the entire paragraph. Trödel| talk 02:19, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Sigh. john k 07:44, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, hasn't this already been discussed several times before? This is really getting ridiculous. 青い(Aoi) 08:39, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is his title. This is a no-brainer vote. Bratsche talk  random 12:12, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, jguk 12:30, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Yes. --MikeJ9919 14:15, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Yes. Vilcxjo 14:49, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, since it is still the current wiki policy and the opposition is POV by constantly using the false argument that including the style is POV. Str1977 20:25, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Yes. It's his title, and it's not POV to say that. For the record I am an atheist. Dbiv 09:20, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) VViki 11:24, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Just seems respectful to use the proper style Abeo was User Jesus is the Christ 21:30, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Yes. Aloysius Patacsil 21:35, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Just realized I hadn't voted yet. We obviously shouldn't use titles in the article name but I see no problem using it in the first reference. Trödel| talk  18:22, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) It's the official title. --Vengeful Cynic 18:52, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 7) Yes.  It's an official title and is used in all other media, not only as a style but a form of address.  We're not inventing it for this page. patsw 02:25, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 22:36, 2005 May 15 (UTC)
 * 2) Gugganij 23:03, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Fawcett5 23:11, 15 May 2005 (UTC) In general, if we add this style here, it should be in fairness applied everywhere, which would be horribly distracting. Besides, it is a style, NOT part of the name (as with "Sir"), and should be explained elsewhere in the text. Putting it first makes it appear part of the name, and interpreted as such, it looks unacceptably POV. It is NOT the normal encyclopedic norm to preface names with a style - Britannica for instance, does not, and nor should we. The same applies for the Queen, Prime ministers, members of parliament, congress critters, military officers, etc. etc. Fawcett5 23:11, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Flyers13 03:23, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Whig 01:45, 16 May 2005 (UTC) This issue has already been resolved in the Manual of Styles (biography) survey on prefixed styles. This ("Vote or Die!") survey is unadvertised and limited in participation to the limited number of people who might be reading this specific talk page. In the past survey, a majority opposed the prefixed use of style in all cases, and NPOV trumps consensus — no consensus is necessary where a significant NPOV dispute exists. The style should not prefix the name, here, or elsewhere in the Wikipedia.
 * Whig, it is a test survey, which has also been mentioned at the MoS Accept/Reject page (see my comment at Abstaining section). It is running for two weeks. Since there is a disagreement at that page, I figured I would settled things here. I encourage you to do the same thing at other articles, gather the results and see what we come up with. We will have a better sense of what people feel, since we will be at the pages people will focus on. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:48, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * One more thing, if this survey is easy to understand by many folks, then we can focus other Wiki-surveys and MoS style debates using this method. And since you claim it is not mentioned, go ahead and make it mentioned. I will mention it again at the MoS style just incase a few miss it. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 01:51, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) --Kbdank71 19:10, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2)  Ausir 02:54, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Jeltz talk  18:59, 18 May 2005 (UTC) Keep prefixing at a minimum. I don't think that encyclopdias generally preface names. Jeltz  talk  18:59, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) --FvdP : would not be neutral. --FvdP 20:05, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Titanium Dragon 03:31, 20 May 2005 (UTC) Tired of the people trying to push their POV into this article. It shouldn't be prefaced, more than half of users would prefer not to preface names with styles, it isn't NPOV, there is currently a referendum on the issue, ect.
 * I know there is the MoS vote, but I think that will be doomed. The reason why this vote is even taking place is that if the new suggestions are not accepted, pretty much we will be in the tubes once again. Also, I stated below that it is hard to have a blanket policy on this, since the styles change, people can easily create styles, so on. I believe every page has a chance to decide on their own. Plus, I think this vote is easy to do, since it is up or down vote, not by the method used at MoS. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:35, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Just because it is easy to understand does not make it appropriate. The people voting here are those who are involved specifically in editing the Pope Benedict XVI article, and it may be reasonably expected that a large proportion of those involved have particular biases, which is why I preferred a survey undertaken as to the general style guideline rather than having unadvertised "votes" on every single gosh-darn page where styles are presently, or might be, used. What chaos and confusion, what a mess. As I've said on the MoS (bio) survey ratification page, and elsewhere, I'm inclined to let the ratification vote run out and see if some approach towards consensus seems to be forming, which is not yet the case, and if not, then I think a RfAr on the matter is the best (perhaps only) way forward. Whig 03:23, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Now I have to agree with you on that: we need some outside assistance. However, where can we look for this outside assistance? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:27, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Zocky 15:43, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Neutralitytalk 03:39, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Tarleton 13:38, 26 May 2005 (UTC). Of course styles like "his holiness", "her majesty" and so on should not be used to refer to a person in wikipedia. No serious encyclopedia does so. It is a violation of the NPOV rule. Some user above said that it is respectful to use the style. He is right of course and that is the reason why "his holiness" should not be used. It is not wikipedia's purpose to be respectful towards popes but to report about popes. Furthermore, in contrast to what some users claim there has never been a consensus about the use of styles. It was simply entered in the manual of style and nobody took notice. If those who try to enforce the use of styles as they are used in this article would really be interested in a consensus they would agree with the form "Pope Benedict ... is formally styled as "his holiness"", which is admittedly a little bit clumsy but contains the same information in a NPOV way. By the way: this embarrassing discussion and the lack of understanding (or good will?) of those who favour the present use "His Holiness" gives excellent arguments for those who believe that wikipedia will never become a serious encyclopedia.
 * I presume you mean formally. Benedict could only described as formerly styled as His Holiness if he resigns. Fear ÉIREANN[[Image:Flag of Ireland.svg|25px]] (talk) 16:45, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course I meant formally. I corrected this in my posting above. Tarleton 07:30, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Do what other encyclopedias do: report the style, not use the style. CDThieme
 * 2) Quasipalm 15:52, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Johntex 16:28, 26 May 2005 (UTC) Styles are too arbitrary and are a form of self promotion by the person or organization involved. Wikipedia should not buy into them in our titles, but should report on them in our articles.
 * Actually they are covered by standard diplomatic rules, are available in diplomatic guidebooks, and are not arbitary at all. We are not "buying" into anything, just using a style in context. It would be wrong to use a style in an article, but is perfectly NPOV to contextualise once in the opening sentence. Fear ÉIREANN[[Image:Flag of Ireland.svg|25px]] (talk) 16:45, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) The style should be reported, certainly, but I know of no other encyclopedia which uses the address this way to introduce the article. Jonathunder 19:18, 2005 May 26 (UTC)
 * 2) ghost 21:01, 26 May 2005 (UTC) Unfortunately, Tarleton is correct. There is a prejudice that being respectful is POV.  It's sad, and I've worked in the past to change things to a more formal style, and thus be more respectful without bias.  Until that change can be affected on a more general level, we should at least keep the articles consistant.
 * 3) No Account 01:13, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Now, I hope we can settle the issue here with this vote. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 22:28, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
 * My objections stand as stated above. This poll is redundant as it has already been decided by a majority that prefixed styles violate NPOV. Leaving it up to individual page editors to conduct and enforce private polls to allow an overturned non-NPOV style guide to remain in effect would violate NPOV. A more constructive question could be asked, because the prescriptive language of the prevailing survey alternative did not carry a consensus, whether the style ought to be provided in the introductory paragraph or elsewhere in the article, however, this particular question is already being addressed in a general ratification vote. Whig 04:50, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * What?? A very slight majority preferred not to use styles.  I see no evidence that a majority views styles as POV. john k 07:44, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The reason why I am conducting this is that if the new idea is rejected, then pretty much we will be back to square one. And, based on that square one, titles are used. If the whole community cannot think up of something for all, then we should deal with the question on individual pages. As mentioned before, it is kind of hard to use a blanket policy on people and their titles. Some people have titles that we use everyday (Sir, Dame), while others were created by a cult (Dear Leader). Each page has the capibility to decide on their own about the prefixed styles and that is what I am doing with this poll. Oh yeah, one more thing, I will not vote in this poll unless there is a tie. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 14:29, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, square one is styles are not used; that was the way Wikipedia was originally before all the edit wars over this issue. And it is quite obvious that nothing approaching a concensus will exist on this page, especially given the number of Christians who are likely to be editors of this page and who are strong supporters of the pope. And arguably, Christianity is a cult, as are all religions. Titanium Dragon 03:33, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Now, I would like to say that not everyone voting in favor of the proposed idea has a religion at all, and there are some who have a faith in a religion and still voted against the idea. So I would not try to lump everyone in the same group. As for the cult opinion, that is not something I am really going to discuss here, since I do not have the answer to that question. Plus, as mentioned before, no matter what I do, what Whig does, or anyone for that matter, there is still going to be a problem with this issue. There will be some who will enforce what we have right now, some who will change it to the Britanica version, or come up with their own version all together. Plus, will we reach the 80 percent consensus: no. Last check its pretty much 2:1 (22 (or 21)- to 11), and I know that still might not be consensus to meet some people's standard. I have no clue when we will ever reach consensus on this issue, but we got more folks involved, so once this is done, we can try to bring everyone involved here into the general MoS issue, which (after permission from Whig) get some type of mediation on this matter. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:37, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

I notice something here. While we have a good portion of people who wish to keep it the way it is, there are people on the other side that HH should be used in another way. I wish to those who do not wish for HH to be prefixed, in what way should HH even be used in the article, if at all. Thanks. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 19:28, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Styles Vote


text:
Matthew 3:14

Matthew 3:14 is the fourteenth verse of the third chapter of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament. Jesus has come to John the Baptist to be baptized, but in this verse John balks at doing so.

Content
In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:
 * But John tried to deter him saying, "I need to be baptised by you, and do you come to me?"

The World English Bible translates the passage as:
 * But John prohibited Him, saying "I need to be baptised by you, and do you come to me?"

The 1881 Westcott-Hort Greek text is:
 * ο δε διεκωλυεν αυτον λεγων
 * εγω χρειαν εχω υπο σου βαπτισθηναι και συ ερχη προς με

For a collection of other versions see BibleHub Matthew 3:14.

Analysis
Gundry notes that this section does not appear in Luke or Mark and concludes that it is thus likely original to Matthew. In the environment the author of Matthew is presumed to have been writing in there would still have been many followers of John the Baptist who felt he was equal or superior to Jesus. Matthew is thus very careful to specify the relationship between the two. Albright and Mann state that this verse and the next are often seen as an embarrassed attempt to justify the messiah being baptized by a mere mortal.

The verse does not specify why exactly John believes he is the one to be baptized. Based on Matthew 3:11 most scholars feel it is largely an issue of precedence. However, according to Hill the Gospel of the Nazarenes, adds a clarification to this section stating that it was because of Jesus' sinlessness that John felt he was the one who should be baptized. In John the order of events is distinct, and the Baptist only recognizes Jesus' nature after the baptism.

John Chrysostom writes concerning this verse, "Since John’s baptism was for repentance, and therefore showed the presence of sin, that none might suppose Christ’s coming to the Jordan to have been on this account, John cried to Him, I have need to be baptized of You, and do You come to me? As if he had said, 'That You should baptize me, there is a good reason, that I may be made righteous and worthy of heaven; but that I should baptize You, what need is there? Every good gift comes down from heaven to earth, it does not ascend from earth to heaven.'"

Commentary from the Church Fathers
Chrysostom: But since John's baptism was to repentance, and therefore showed the presence of sin, that none might suppose Christ's coming to the Jordan to have been on this account, John cried to Him, I have need to be baptized of Thee, and comest Thou to me? As if he had said,

Pseudo-Chrysostom: That Thou shouldest baptize me there is good cause, that I may be made righteous and worthy of heaven; but that I should baptize Thee, what cause is there? Every good gift comes down from heaven upon earth, not ascends from earth to heaven.

Hilary of Poitiers: John rejects Him from baptism as God; He teaches him, that it ought to be performed on Him as man.

title: Matthew 3:14


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dog Bone Sanctuary

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. Eugene van der Pijll 18:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dog Bone Sanctuary
Band from Seattle, apparently "just prior to exploding onto the scene". No entry on allmusic, appears to have only made demos so far. Delete JeremyA 15:42, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete while they actually seem to be a known, if minor, Seattle band, this page reeks of so much vanity and POV that I think it cannot be saved.--Sophitus 18:14, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete band vanity. - Etacar11 00:28, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable, band vanity. Megan1967 09:49, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, non-encylopedic at this time. Maybe at some point in the future if they further establish themselves. <> Who ? ¿ ?  00:13, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (film)

Triwizard Tournement
The first task is incorrectly described. Each competitor draws lots for a different breed of dragon to face, although the goal of a golden egg is the same for each of them. Dick Kimball (talk) 19:39, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ I revised the statement to say each competitor must retrieve a golden egg guarded by a dragon, without specifying the breed. IMO the breed and the lot-drawing isn't significantly important to add to a plot summary that's already longer than it should be. Doniago (talk) 19:56, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Cast List Changes
See. Evil Genius77 (talk) 21:14, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

 * The discussion referenced is currently inconclusive, but certain editors seem to be intent on keeping the list minimal, a policy which is not being followed on other  HP pages. 1Z (talk) 23:35, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Since David Tennant also played Barty Crouch Jr. (even though it was only part of the film) should he also be casted as Barty Crouch Jr.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.206.253.207 (talk) 23:12, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

--William Allen Simpson (talk) 15:05, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course. The cast list is determined by studio contract, and this article must match the list actually displayed in the film. Any revisions would violate Verifiability: "

Unsourced Material
Below material has been unsourced for months. Please feel free to reincorporate into the article with proper sourcing. Thanks. Doniago (talk) 13:39, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 * ✅ I reincorporated the material back into the article with sources. TFunk (talk) 23:12, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Priori Incantatum
Since Peter "Wormtail" Pettigrew, not Lord Voldemort, murdered Cedric Diggory, Voldemort's wand could not and did not disgorge Cedric's spirit. Voldemort did, however, personally murder caretaker Frank Bryce, but I think I recall the novel missing that too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dick Kimball (talk • contribs) 2011-04-19 18:31:40 UTC

--William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:33, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Both the novel and film produce Cedric's spirit – he asks to be returned – because Wormtail uses (and holds) Voldemort's wand. Wormtail has no wand of his own as he ran away from capture. We don't know how he finds Voldemort's wand.

Differences from the book
There has been a spate of recent edits listing differences from the book. There are a couple of policies and guidelines to consider: Useful guidance for discussing adaptations can be found at WP:FILMDIFF, which instructs "Details from secondary sources about such changes, such as why they took place, how they affected production, and how outside parties reacted to them, can be included in the respective sections of the article body." In other words if we are to cover differences from the source material we must provide a real-world context for those alterations. Betty Logan (talk) 17:44, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:SYNTHESIS – Commentary discussing a work must be explicitly sourced i.e. You can not note differences from the source material by simply comparing the film to the book. You need a source that that actually discusses such differences.
 * WP:INDISCRIMINATE – Even if such a source can be found, the information must not be indiscriminate i.e. we don't list differences for the sake of it.

There are a few differences that are not on the page I would like to add. Mostly the lack of obstacles during the 3rd task. This is my source http://blog.mysanantonio.com/dvd/2005/11/harry-potter-the-goblet-of-fire-book-to-film-comparison/. Though when I try to add this to the page it gets reverted. Does anyone have a problem with me adding " For the third task in the book the champions faced monsters,magical creatures and enchantments. This however was not in the film" lordjoshua420 (talk) 14:07, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I have a problem with it. The source you provided is just a list of differences with no discussion or commentary. As Betty mentions above, if we're going to discuss the differences than we should strive to provide real-world context as well, not just list them. DonIago (talk) 18:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

How about this source then http://thatwasnotinthebook.com/diff/harry_potter_and_the_goblet_of_fire_book_2000_vs_harry_potter_and_the_goblet_of_fire_movie_2005/0#diffPage. This source mantions that there were creatures in the Maze in the book but none in the movie. This also mentions that Dobby gives Harry Gillyweed in the book but it's Neville in the movie(another one of my edits that was removed) I'm not looking to add these things just to edit. These are significant differences IMO lordjoshua420 (talk) 14:23, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Still just a list. DonIago (talk) 18:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes but it's a list of what's different between the books and the movies. What do you want then as a source? I provided two different sources that both verify the same thing. I was told I cant source the actual book or I would source that as well. Again These are not minor things. I'm assuming you read the book so I would guess that you know these are accurate facts and the two sources support that. Do you have a problem with the information being put on the page? If so why? lordjoshua420 (talk) 14:29, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * As Betty said, if you want to discuss the changes you should include real-world context for the changes, not just a list of them. Consequently you need a source that discusses, for instance, why the changes were made, not just a listing of them. We're not looking to verify that changes occurred, becuase changes always occur when a film is adapted from a book. "Dobby doesn't appear" isn't appropriate. "Dobby doesn't appear because the producers felt his appearance would be disturbing to small children and they wanted the film to be more family-friendly" is (with an appropriate source of course). If you look at the rest of the section there are examples of appropriate sources provided. DonIago (talk) 18:46, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

So even though the facts I'm adding are accurate and my sources support those facts because the sources don't discuss why those changes were made the sources are not good enough. Even though those sources support the facts I am adding?lordjoshua420 (talk) 14:53, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The source isn't so much the problem as the actual content: it simply lists differences. Your source offers no explanation for the changes, no critical observation on how the changes impact the production etc. It's simply a list, and we don't "list" differences in Wikipedia articles. We explain why alterations were made and how they affected the end product. Betty Logan (talk) 18:54, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070527023912/http://www.cbc.ca:80/arts/story/2005/11/04/wyrdlawsuit_051104.html to http://www.cbc.ca/arts/story/2005/11/04/wyrdlawsuit_051104.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061114061115/http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/moviereviews/story/366595p-311840c.html to http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/moviereviews/story/366595p-311840c.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 23:27, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 6 external links on Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120923223732/http://www.wbstudiotour.co.uk/en/about-us/harry-potter-at-leavesden to http://www.wbstudiotour.co.uk/en/about-us/harry-potter-at-leavesden
 * Replaced archive link http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HtJJHWRTHD0J:static.thecia.com.au/reviews/h/harry-potter-and-the-goblet-of-fire-production-notes.rtf+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a with https://web.archive.org/web/20120406061001/http://static.thecia.com.au/reviews/h/harry-potter-and-the-goblet-of-fire-production-notes.rtf on http://static.thecia.com.au/reviews/h/harry-potter-and-the-goblet-of-fire-production-notes.rtf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131212183310/http://www.monstersandcritics.com/soundtracks/news/article_2119.php/Jarvis_Cocker_to_write_next_Harry_Potter_soundtrack to http://www.monstersandcritics.com/soundtracks/news/article_2119.php/Jarvis_Cocker_to_write_next_Harry_Potter_soundtrack
 * Added tag to http://www.monstersandcritics.com/movies/news/article_9856.php/Harry_Potter_and_the_Goblet_of_Fire_International_Trailer
 * Added tag to http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051104/wyrd_sisters_051104/20051104?hub=Canada
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071016153617/http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=bc5b3049-56dc-493b-9ccc-5d4bd0389392 to http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=bc5b3049-56dc-493b-9ccc-5d4bd0389392
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110708105347/http://buyharrypottermovies.com/harry-potter-years-1-6-giftset-widescreen-edition/ to http://buyharrypottermovies.com/harry-potter-years-1-6-giftset-widescreen-edition/
 * Added tag to https://m.cinemascore.com/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070519154640/http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/movies/review/2005/11/17/potter/index.html?pn=2 to http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/movies/review/2005/11/17/potter/index.html?pn=2

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 02:33, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added tag to http://www.classification.gov.au/Usingclassification/Findaclassification/Pages/Classification-search-result.aspx?sid=i1MvqeNn6Ajb2T7mOlsE9g%253d%253d&ncdctx=Xe9pUybB4XBcPuuHE%2bck6G0lQZD35saZTHbgM9uPQoaEPuT9hPG4udhbUFUWgz8v
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120401035312/http://movies.about.com/od/harrypotter4/a/harrypttr050305.htm to http://movies.about.com/od/harrypotter4/a/harrypttr050305.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 19:28, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Movie Success
In the article it discusses the success of the movie within the United States and Mainland Chine, but not the country of its origin-- the United Kingdom. I think adding to the success of the movie internationally as well as individual countries relevant to the film would add to the article. Emilygess (talk) 07:46, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

J.K. Rowling
Another point of interest that could add to this article would be the role of JK Rowling in the production of the film or lack thereof. This can then be compared to her role in the production of the other movies in the series and would provide an interesting perspective for readers. Emilygess (talk) 07:47, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

WP:FILMRATINGS
I know people think film ratings in general are notable, but WP:MOSFILM discourages including them. WP:FILMRATINGS "avoid indiscriminate identification of ratings and instead focus on ratings for which there is substantial coverage from reliable sources." I know some editors will keep trying to add them to articles anyway and it can be a hassle to get them to stop. I know people think the ratings for this film are in particular notable because they are higher than the previous films in the series, but it has not yet been shown that there was substantial coverage of the ratings, or that there was any coverage of the ratings at all. (This came to my attention because the MPAA rating didn't even have a proper reference to WP:VERIFY it, and it should have more not just a reference to verify the simple facts but more to show the rating was notable and received substantial coverage. It also feels a bit like a case of WP:OVERSECTION that this is a whole separate subsection and not a part of the Theatrical release section.)

The critical response section does address the fact that this film was seen as darker and more mature, but the reviews care about the story, the actual content of the film, the ratings are still incidental and not relevant. Maybe editors can find sources to show the ratings were notable, or mabye editors want to ignore the rules in this case but as it stands this article is failing to follow the WP:FILMRATINGS guidelines and I think improvement is needed,(reference to show notability/substantial coverage) or at least discussion that editors want to deliberately make an exception to the rules here. -- 109.78.217.4 (talk) 00:09, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

 * I was looking for a good quality reliable source to simply WP:VERIFY the MPAA rating and ended up finding a Box Office Mojo editorial article about the ratings of the Harry Potter film series, which might be a good start to show the ratings of this film are notable, but the guidelines do say "substantial coverage". -- 109.78.217.4 (talk) 00:17, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This Los Angeles Times review talks about the film's PG-13 rating. This The Guardian article is exclusively about the 12A rating the film received. This The Times article is about that as well. El Millo (talk) 00:59, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Mentions in a review is coverage, that's not bad. That guardian article is excellent, just what is needed. The Times article looks pretty good too (but damn them and their paywall, I hate having to use them as a source). It would be a substantial improvement if they were referenced in the Ratings section. I'd rearrange it to put the UK Rating and reliable sources first, the less notable USA and AUS ratings after. (I'll do that soon unless you want to do it first.)
 * Do you think the separate subsection is entirely necessary, or could/should the ratings be folded into the Theatrical release section? -- 109.78.217.4 (talk) 01:11, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This BBC article is also about the rating. I think it would be better integrated into the Theatrical release section, yes. El Millo (talk) 01:17, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

 * Done. I'm reasonably satisfied with the results. Maybe more would be better but I think it does now meet the minimum requirements of WP:FILMRATINGS. Thank you for finding quality sources.
 * Tangent: the Lawsuit section doesn't make any logical sense as a subsection of Distribution/Release, I'm going to bump it down to the end as a separate section. Maybe getting clearances for trademarks and copyrights (and getting sued for failing) is a a Production issue? Anyway it doesn't relate to Distribution IMO. -- 109.78.217.4 (talk) 01:40, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Tangent: the Lawsuit section doesn't make any logical sense as a subsection of Distribution/Release, I'm going to bump it down to the end as a separate section. Maybe getting clearances for trademarks and copyrights (and getting sued for failing) is a a Production issue? Anyway it doesn't relate to Distribution IMO. -- 109.78.217.4 (talk) 01:40, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

I checked the archived discussions about ratings (which don't matter anyway because they don't lead to any sources that might have been useful, so I wasn't missing anything). There were some people complaining that the rating would exclude some younger fans and there were people getting annoyed at editors removing the UK ratings from the article., but nothing interesting. Now I'm really done with this discussion. -- 109.79.184.96 (talk) 16:42, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Dumbledore "screams" at Harry
I'm not aware of a source that uses this particular wording. If you are, or believe that using this wording would be an improvement over not using it, please make your opinions known here! DonIago (talk) 20:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC)


text:
Mike Reid

Michael or Mike Reid may refer to:

Sportsmen

 * Mike Reid (golfer) (born 1954), American golfer
 * Mike Reid (defensive back) (born 1970), American football player for the Philadelphia Eagles
 * Mike Reid (rugby union) (born 1985), New Zealand rugby union player
 * Michael Reid (boxer) (born 1938), Irish Olympic boxer
 * Michael Reid (linebacker) (born 1964), American football linebacker
 * Michael Reid (rugby league), Australian, active in the 1980s

Actors

 * Michael Eric Reid (born 1992), American child actor
 * Mike Reid (actor) (1940–2007), English comedian and actor, best known for his role as Frank Butcher in the BBC soap opera EastEnders

Others

 * Mike Reid (singer) (born 1947), singer, songwriter and composer, also retired American football player (early 1970s)
 * Michael Reid (evangelist) (1943–2023), English Christian evangelist
 * Michael Reid (journalist) (born 1952), English journalist, writer and commentator on Latin American and Iberian affairs
 * Michael Reid (politician) (born 1954), American politician in Missouri
 * Mike Reid (chef) (born 1982), British chef and co-host of Australian cooking television series

title: Mike Reid