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Talk:Hawaii/Archive 4

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Kanaka maoli -- Huna
I'm seeing a number of edits, coming from IPs without any username, that introduce the term 'kanaka maoli' and refer to 'Huna' as the Hawaiian religion. Not to mention clumsy attempts at valorizing Hawaiian oral tradition over written sources.

Kanaka maoli means 'true human' and is an inflammatory usage. It seems to be associated mainly with Hawaiian separatist movements. The Hawaiian studies program at UH Hilo, which is much less politically polarized than the UH Manoa program, uses kanaka 'oiwi or po'e 'oiwi by preference. A political agenda (native sources over foreign) also explains the references to oral tradition.

However, I don't understand the attempts to put Huna into the Hawai'i article. I've never even met any Hawaiian activists who would regard it as anything but a New Age scam preying on gullible hippies. Someone also put Huna into the Polynesian mythology article, from whence I uprooted it. I have written a Huna article which some of you may want to visit and perhaps edit, since I think my language may be a bit intemperate.

When I edited out a few incendiary references in the recent Hawaiian history section, I did add links to as-yet-nonexistent articles on Native Hawaiian political organizations and separatist movements. Anyone who feels VERY strongly about these issues may want to write the articles, and we can conduct internicine warfare in those talk pages :)

Zora 03:53, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I applaud your efforts. Every political subject has its radical wing, and those who live in Hawai`i are well aware of the "debate" and polarizations about which you speak. While these people express a point of view that should certainly be heard, it is a minority view among residents and Hawaiians. Indeed, the fact that the majority of those who hold these views are not pure Hawaiian (many have no Hawaiian blood) should be a tip-off. The majority of part Hawaiians (few pure Hawaiians exist) as a group hold views every bit as diverse as those held by all other racial groups in Hawai`i.  There are Hawaiians who think hunting of introduced game takes precedence over preserving native ecosystems; there are Hawaiians involved in every economic and political stratum of our society; there are Hawaiians who want land, and there are Hawaiians that have land. Hawaiians have become a minority in their own land, and there certainly is a sadness in that fact, but of all the Pacific peoples, none is as well off as are the Hawaiians. But power is what it is always about, and everyone should simply be aware of that fact. - Marshman 05:11, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

More on Hawai‘iloa
I need to edit the Hawai‘iloa article -- when I get a round tuit -- because it inaccurately elevates one of the many myths about Hawaiian origins to canonical status. I've pulled Malo, Kamakau, I‘i and Beckwith off my shelves and I'm trying to get my bearings. I think Malo (the earliest source) says it best when he says:

"It is very surprising to hear how contradictory are the accounts given by the ancients of the origin of the land here in Hawaii."

and earlier:

"The ancients left no records of the lands of their birth, of what people drove them out, who were their guides and leaders, of the canoes that transported them, what lands they visited in their wanderings, and what gods they worshipped."

If Malo doesn't know, who does?

Anyway, I toned down references to Hawai‘loa in the Ancient Hawai‘i section of the main article. Also a bunch of minor edits, mostly style.

I should add that I like what Gerald Farinas did with the oh-so-controversial Hawaiian history section, tiptoeing gently through the minefields.

Zora 20:47, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Bias against sovereignty position
I cannot imagine that information on the illegal overthrow of the independent nation of Hawai`i does not appear prominently on the Hawaii page. This appears to be the effect of biased editing. Response please.

--Larry

 * The response is that if you feel the article is biased, add to it. Of course, you need to follow NPOV, our neutrality policy. Why not discuss specific changes you wish to make on the talk page (since it seems like a controversial topic) rather than blanket accusations? Good luck and best wishes, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 19:13, 2004 Aug 6 (UTC)

 * Details are lacking in the Hawaiian history section on the main Hawaii page because it is meant to showcase only a general overview of Hawaiian history. The same amounts of information given for the overthrow is given to the other major historical events.

 * We do mention of the overthrow, "The dynasty of King Kalakaua reigned until the overthrow of the kingdom in 1893, a coup d'état orchestrated by American plantation owners with the help of an armed militia and the United States Marine Corps." And we continue, "Prevalent in post-statehood Hawai‘i was an increase in combative attitudes by some native Hawaiians towards the federal government, seen by some as an occupying power. Regrets over the demise of the Hawaiian monarchy produced several political organizations that are collectively known as the Hawaiian sovereignty movement. The movement's most prominent success was the passage of the Apology Resolution of 1993 that made redress for American actions leading to the overthrow of the kingdom. The resolution was passed by Congress and signed by President Bill Clinton."

 * Just as teaser summaries are used to entice readers into more detailed sections of a newspaper or magazine, the Hawaii history section in the Hawaii article acts as a teaser for other Wikipedia articles that offer further specifics.  Such articles can be found by clicking on the prominent links provided that funnels you to articles that get into the details of the overthrow: Bayonet Constitution, Republic of Hawaii, Hawaiian sovereignty movement, etc.

 * Why, if the overthrow is a prominent event in the history of Hawaii, should it be relegated to a mere few lines on the Hawaii page? The answer to that is that there are other significant issues that have to be mentioned and dealt with on the Hawaii page.  Just as the overthrow is dealt with in a few lines, we dealt with Governor Lingle's mention for example to a single line.  We expect readers to link to Governor Lingle's article because we cannot devote all the details of her administration on the main Hawaii page.  We dealt with the various islands of Hawaii in a short section.  We expect readers to link to the separate articles for Niihau, Kauai, Oahu, Maui, Molokai, Lanai, Kahoolawe and the Big Island for details.  --Gerald Farinas 19:34, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I did add a link to a page with much information, and perhaps I did not do it in the correct wiki way, but anyway it was quickly deleted. The overthrow is certainly a prominent event in the lives of the native Hawaiians whose country was taken away, and who now suffer some of the very poorest health statistics in the entire country. It is a very privileged position to question whether the overthrow of one's country, the prohibition of one's language and the suppression of one's culture is a "prominent event". I am not a native Hawaiian but I see how this has affected so very many of them. Lingle is but a blip in history compared to the cataclysmic and some say genocidal event of the overthrow. --Larry

Use of ‘okina in other articles
I've been watching the debate over the ‘okina and kahako for a while now. I noticed that in the main Hawaii article, spelling switches quite frequently back and forth between "Hawaii" and "Hawai‘i".

I was wondering, when I write articles for Wikipedia, which spelling should I use? I see articles all the time written both with and without the ‘okina and am confused as to what I should do myself. Also, how should I name my articles? Should I include the ‘okina in my article titles? Should I make redirect pages using the ‘okinas to non-‘okina titled articles? Or vice versa?

I am concerned right now mainly with consistency. With different articles using different spellings, shouldn't we select a spelling and stick with it? This is just my opinion, I haven't been on Wikipedia for very long (I've only been reading articles since about January and I've only been editing them since about May) so if I'm violating some kind of Wikipedia norm here, I appologize. -Aoi

 * Some debate. Conservatives vs. learners. Anyway, I'd say edit according to what you are comfortable with; but don't plan on defending your preferences to the end. Try and learn from the changes that get made to your contributions. Consistency is an illusion with no meaning beyond this week. To "select" a spelling and stick with it is not possible or desirable. Should we select American English and stick with it? What about all the other contributors that feel their English is at least as important as American? To even strive for consistency assumes that your POV (or someone else's) is what we should follow.  Given that Wikipedia is a free and open project, consistency should not even be a consideration (following good grammer should be, but even grammer usually offers more than one option for every rule).  There is nothing consistent within a language or a culture, so why elect to support a format that is simply one point of view among many. Most readers and editors seem to accept that finding differences between American and British English constitutes a learning value provided by Wikipedia, not a battleground for consistency freaks. The same goes for this debate.  If you are from Hawai`i, you will understand the arguments; if you are not, try opening your mind to the fact that everything can be viewed a little differently from another vantage point and THAT should be your take home.  Contribute something, anything; do it how YOU like. Gain a lesson or simply broaden your mind by what others do with it. Try and protect your contribution as the "best" way, and you will only gain bitterness and align with the cadre of intellectually challenged - Marshman 04:54, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hawaiian dispute template dispute
See Template talk:Hawaiian. - Gilgamesh 22:22, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Changes to Hawaiian language section
I hadn't been watching carefully, I guess, and some errors crept into the Hawaiian language section.

It's misleading to say Congregationalist and Presbyterian missionaries, as that can be read as two separate efforts. They were ABCFM missionaries. THe ABCFM was ostensibly a non-denominational effort, an outgrowth of the Evangelical Revival. However, Congregationalists were the predominant force in the ABCFM and the Hawaiian church is basically, Congregationalist.

I think I need to write an article on the missionaries ...

It's also just WRONG to say that the missionaries used the kahak[=o] and the 'okina (excuse the shortcuts here, I'm tired). Those weren't added to Hawaiian orthography until the middle of the 20th century, I think. Which leaves a whole huge literature in Native Hawaiian, in the Hawaiian newspapers, which is printed in the old orthography and has to be UPDATED for modern readers, who often aren't native speakers. A native speaker can guess what word is meant (jst s y cn rd ths sntnc wtht vwls) but a neophyte is lost. I speak with feeling on this subject because I've just copyedited a whole #$%#$!@ book in the old orthography. (No, I don't really speak or read Hawaiian, but I was the closest Distributed Proofreaders had to an expert. My Hawaiian dictionary got a workout. DP's first Hawaiian book close to release!)

The section as it stood also suffered from a confusion of spelling and pronunciation. Understandable when Hawaiian is being revived from near-death by people who are learning from books and not immersion.

There are some sharp editors here, so if my sleep-deprived wording is confusing, I'm sure it will be fixed. Zora 22:14, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nation of Hawai'i in links?
I just noticed that someone has added a link to Bumpy Kanahele's website to the external links section. Given that the other links are bland Chamber of Commerce style links, I don't think that a link to a tiny political group makes any sense. Make sure it's on the Hawaiian sovereignty page, yes; add to the main page, no. Otherwise, for fairness sake, we're going to have add links to every other political group in the islands!

(I just did a link pruning on the Islam article, which had accumulated a page of links to various and sundry sects, imams, etc. etc. Use of Wikipedia as a tool for proselytizing is a worry.)

I'll hold off deleting the link for a day or so, so that everyone has a chance to comment. Zora 21:07, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I suppose a link would be in order on an article about that subject, but I agree with Zora, the Hawai‘i main article is NOT the place. It amounts to advertising a cause. - Marshman 02:14, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Map
Can anyone find a map that illustrates Hawaii's position in the Pacific? Right now all that the map conveys is that Hawaii is located in a box off the coast of Mexico, right next to Alaska. Fishal 23:13, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

kanaka maoli being inflammatory? Hawaiiloa
Zora, why are you saying that the use of kanaka maoli is inflammatory? On top of that, your translation of it being "True Human" is the first I've ever seen. To me, a Kanaka Maoli is the same as the term I prefer, 'Oiwi. I noticed that you mentioned UH Hilo and the terms that they've used. Although Kanaka Maoli may seem to be used more for those pro-sovereignty, please do not feel that kanaka maoli is inflammatory because you are literally translating it as a true human. My ancestors have always called themselves "kanaka" just as other Polynesians have and still do today. Would you also then find that "Maori" being used by the Maoris of Aotearoa is equally inflammatory since it means "true" and of course are referring to the first people of that island nation?

 * My reaction to the term "kanaka maoli" is based not only on the translation, but on the way that it's used, and the overtones that it has acquired. If we're going to use it, we should give the other term, kanaka 'oiwi or po'e 'oiwi, as well. That's all. Zora 23:56, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Now as for the Hawaiiloa story, please do not trivialize the stories that have been handed down by my ancestors! To you it is nothing but a myth and you may find oral tradition unreliable, yet ironically considering it was oral and has been passed down for more than 80 generations, why is it that the stories also share nearly identical similarities with other Polynesians, including estimated years of when these people were born, lived and died?

 * I'm not saying that all oral tradition is wrong; I'm just saying that it has to be weighed carefully. Just like written documents, or archaeological evidence. In the case of the Hawaiiloa story, it is not cited in the early works, Malo and Kamakau, when one would expect it to be cited, and it only appears late. That suggests to me that it could be a back-formation -- someone having heard about Polynesian migrations in the course of formal education, and making up a story that fit the anthropological theory, then passing it on as an OLD story. Can you prove that it didn't happen that way? Zora 23:56, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'd say that is pretty accurate. And honestly, haven't we always heard it from non-Hawaiians anyway? Why not include oral traditions? Look at all these "proven" things they've been discovering with Polynesians in general. We all laugh at these scientists because here we have been saying exactly where our ancestors were from, what they were about, what they have done, yet no one didn't want to believe us because it seemed illogical that these "primitive" people would grasp this type of knowledge. Only to have them now prove what we've been saying for centuries is actually true? And quoting Malo in this particular sense doesn't validate that it is inaccurate either simply on the basis that he was not only Hawaiian but a scholar educated at Lahainaluna but knew well about Hawaiian society.

 * You're not making sense here. Malo was precisely the person who would have known about such stories, as he studied Hawaiian lore before he converted to Christianity. The fact that he doesn't mention it is suspicious. If he were the only one, maybe this wouldn't be important, but there ARE no other early mentions. Only Fornander, who is late, a proponent of Polynesian migration theories. If we even had the stories in their original form, as collected by his assistants ... but no, all that's lost. Zora 23:56, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Recently this past summer I got to meet relatives on my paternal grandfather's side in his home country of which he purposely broke ties off back in 1919. It was amazing to hear stories, what little they knew of my grandfather in relation to his voyage to the Hawaiian islands. It was not exactly the same story I heard from my father and his siblings about their father's journey to the islands. It was similar, yet it had differences because it was nothing more than views of one person's perspective. When I got their story it all came together like a puzzle.

Malo found it contradictary because of one side, one version of the story. Just as certain island chiefs clung to different branches of genealogy all leading back up to the same progenitors, Wakea and Papa. It doesn't mean that the story of Hawaiiloa is inaccurate, but merely it is one person's version of the peopling of the islands. I'm sure you are aware of the not one but the 2 different migrational waves of Polynesians to the Hawaiian islands in different centuries. Who is to say that perhaps the Hawaiiloa belong to specifically only one of those groups versus both? Mamoahina 22:12, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * But there is absolutely NO evidence for the two wave theory. There should be some archaeological evidence, no? It seems to me that the story is a myth validating social stratification, the denial of any kinship between the chiefs and the maka'ainana. There's a similar myth in Tonga, also with zero archaeological validation.

 * I get the strong impression that you believe that Native Hawaiians "own" their history, and resent "scientists" debunking comfortable, familiar beliefs. Well, it isn't just directed at you! Social scientists will turn a nitpicking eye on ANY history, social mythology, what have you. If they're honest, that is. It's easy enough to be skeptical of other people's stories while stepping gingerly around one's own sacred cows. Such failures, however, do not discredit the enterprise. It makes it just that much more important to turn an unflinching eye on one's own beliefs. Zora 23:56, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

''If we're going to use it, we should give the other term, kanaka 'oiwi or po'e 'oiwi, as well. ''

I agree. Listing all terms would be better and pointing out that it is a recent term as well as a more political term.

In the case of the Hawaiiloa story, it is not cited in the early works, Malo and Kamakau, when one would expect it to be cited, and it only appears late.

"Legend of Hawaii-loa" appears in Abraham Fornander's book called "Fornander Collection of Hawaiian Antiquities and Folk-lore - Memories of Bernice Pauahi Bishop Museum - Volume VI Part I, II, III". On page 266 he writes "Compiled and Condesned in English from Kepelino and S. M. Kamakau" and writes about the genealogy direct from Kane and explains the creation of man beginning from Kumu Honua and his wife Lalo Honua of which I believe Kamakau also mentions. In this section is the complex genealogy going down to Hawaii Loa and he writes that he (Hawaii Loa) was an ancestor of the Hawaiian family.

So it is not a "late" addition one would think that it was made up.

 * Fornander is comparatively late. He gathered his materials in 1870-1871, and published in 1878-1880. The introduction to my copy of Malo says that the manuscript Emerson used dates from approximately 1840. The essays republished in Kamakau's Ka Po'e Kahiko were published between 1866 and 1871. There are several generations between Malo and Fornander. Less time between Fornander and Kamakau.

 * There is so much in Fornander and Kepelino that is clearly missionary influenced that none of it can be completely trusted to be representative of pre-contact Hawai'i. However, if you change your perspective, they are good sources for what Hawaiians of that era thought. Which has clearly evolved in the 100 years since Cook's first visit.

''That suggests to me that it could be a back-formation -- someone having heard about Polynesian migrations in the course of formal education, and making up a story that fit the anthropological theory, then passing it on as an OLD story. Can you prove that it didn't happen that way?''

I initially thought it resembled the biblical story back in the mid to late 90s when I saw details of the story. That was until a few Maoris shared their genealogy of the same creation naming the same people (but not specifically to Hawaiiloa, which would make sense because it was not their own ancestor) that I realized the story was not influenced by missionaries, etc.

 * But there are many resemblances between all the Polynesian creation myths. Plus the same missionary influences acting on all of them. Zora 00:19, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

''Malo was precisely the person who would have known about such stories, as he studied Hawaiian lore before he converted to Christianity. The fact that he doesn't mention it is suspicious. ''

I'm going to assume you're referring to Malo's "English" version, not the original version. There were other things he did not mention in certain chiefly aspects of which John Papa I'i mentioned. So are we to say that this was suspicious? Point is, these men had their strong points.

''If he were the only one, maybe this wouldn't be important, but there ARE no other early mentions. Only Fornander, who is late, a proponent of Polynesian migration theories. If we even had the stories in their original form, as collected by his assistants ... but no, all that's lost.''

There are no early mentions of certain genealogies that were passed down to my own family as well as other families who have openly shared their genealogies with mine. But that doesn't mean they hold no water Zora.

 * You keep turning this into black-and-white, oral tradition is perfect or it is worthless ... it's neither. It's something to be weighed carefully. It's entirely possible, for instance, for a genealogy to be mythical for some generations and then shade into something that's as much history as anything written down. Zora 00:19, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If you have such an issue with oral traditions, I think it would be best to leave out Hawaiiloa since he is the one that most Hawaiians trace their genealogies to, but rather Wakea and Papa who is are the ones credited. That way, we could alleviate all conjecture. I am uncomfortable about those not skilled in Hawaiian traditions especially one that did not grow up with the culture to freely write things of our culture in such a place as this. My sentiments are widely shared by others but that's not the point. Point is, if you have a strong distaste for certain parts of my culture, let's just leave Hawaiiloa out of the page. Wakea and Papa would be preferred and is more well known.

''But there is absolutely NO evidence for the two wave theory. There should be some archaeological evidence, no? It seems to me that the story is a myth validating social stratification, the denial of any kinship between the chiefs and the maka'ainana. There's a similar myth in Tonga, also with zero archaeological validation.''

I guess you missed my point about scientists now proving things that we already know. I use the term scientist Zora because we all know that your "theories" were from a collective validation from those in the linguistic field as well as archeological field. Linguistics have classified the Hawaiian language as an east central Marquesic language.

As for the archeological findings, we already know that the cyclonic fishponds mostly on the Windward islands resemble those of non-Tahitic origin, just as the earliest archeological findings in Halawa (Molokai) points to previous migrations coming from the Southern Marquesas area. I am not aware of archeological evidence of the latter Tahitic group, however cultural ties, the class system and gods are similar to those of the Society Islands.

 * But that is no proof of the second wave theory, necessarily. It could well be independent evolution. Zora 00:19, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I get the strong impression that you believe that Native Hawaiians "own" their history, and resent "scientists" debunking comfortable, familiar beliefs.

Zora, please drop the arrogant attitude. Your thinking is that nothing is "owned", which is what many indigenous people constantly experience. As in your statement about how no one owns information under the "Hapa" section. In this case however, I hate to tell you this, but you are wrong. And another thing, what "debunking" are we talking about really? Scientists have not debunked anything of the Hawaiian culture that I know of, but rather have validated our oral traditions as in the case of seafaring. Archeological findings (Halawa) have also validated the genealogical reckoning leading up to the Hawaiian people's progenitors Wakea and Papa who lived 80 generations before me. When I calculate from my year of birth back to Wakea and Papa, it coincides pretty much to the dates archeologists dated artifacts from Halawa Valley. Could you give me actual examples of your "debunking" theories?

 * Well, for one thing, the antiquity of the Hawaiiloa story. Or the two migrations theory. Zora 00:19, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In case you haven't figured it out from my previous comments, I really don't care too much for WIKIPEDIA however do care if people quote me, quote any of my fndings as well as trivialize my culture and most importantly my people and my ancestors. Many people have been doing that for years, just as I have quickly rose up against these people. People such as yourself may classify us as "sovereignty" proponents or any other name you may use (i.e. savages) but arrogance is a behavior which I deal with daily. It's almost benign to me.

 * But Mamoahina, you aren't the sole representative of your culture, people, ancestors. Just because someone says something that you, or you and some of your friends, don't like, that doesn't prove that he/she is anti-Hawaiian. It just means that he/she disagrees with you. Zora 00:19, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

''Well, it isn't just directed at you! Social scientists will turn a nitpicking eye on ANY history, social mythology, what have you. If they're honest, that is. It's easy enough to be skeptical of other people's stories while stepping gingerly around one's own sacred cows. Such failures, however, do not discredit the enterprise. It makes it just that much more important to turn an unflinching eye on one's own beliefs.''

Yes Zora, you are right in this. However I think you are over reacting to me telling you not to trivialize my culture and are using "scientists" to prove your point. Fact is, scientists really haven't disputed much of Hawaiian traditions. Or were you not aware of that? If you need sources, I could give you a list of names of those at the University of Hawaii who specialize in certain areas, that way you could see for yourself can put your mind at ease.

 * If they're in Lilikala's department, I'm afraid that wouldn't prove a thing to me. Sorry. However, it doesn't matter whether I believe it or not. If it's a viewpoint that a number of people share, it should be in Wikipedia. We try to handle controversy not be declaring one side right, but by stepping back and saying, "Some people believe A and some believe B", and giving a good enough description of each position that the reader can decide which to believe. The only thing is ... we can't do much of that in the Hawaii article, since it's already oversized. An article on "Theories of Native Hawaiian origins and migrations" might be useful, however, and give us more space to lay everything out. Or we could rework the Hawaiian antiquities article. Zora 00:19, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Also, not familiar with how these forums work and I guess when I try to quote previous entries, they come out differently? I apologize if I am not in tuned with the format. Mamoahina 06:00, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Don't worry about that. It takes a while to get the hang of things here, and I'm not sure I have done so entirely. It is clear to me that you are here to discuss things honestly and politely, and that's the important thing. Zora 00:19, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Rep
''You're not making sense here. Malo was precisely the person who would have known about such stories, as he studied Hawaiian lore before he converted to Christianity. The fact that he doesn't mention it is suspicious. ''

Wrong! The fact that he was not able to gather all oral traditions is proof that he was not one that knew EVERYTHING but merely knew a lot! He was not an ali'i, so keep that in mind. Because of that, he naturally did not have things normally taught to ali'i children, such as certain genealogies. Everything else he mentions however holds namely because he lived much earlier than I'i and Kamakau.

''Only Fornander, who is late, a proponent of Polynesian migration theories. If we even had the stories in their original form, as collected by his assistants ... but no, all that's lost''

Funny how you mention Fornander as if he conjured up all these stories himself. But it seems that you already know that he didn't, which is true. He used other people to gather his information. I'm surprised as to how he never mentions his wife as a source.

''But there is absolutely NO evidence for the two wave theory. There should be some archaeological evidence, no? It seems to me that the story is a myth validating social stratification, the denial of any kinship between the chiefs and the maka'ainana. There's a similar myth in Tonga, also with zero archaeological validation. ''

I think you mean "physical" evidence in which case I could only tell you what I know. And the 2 wave theory was mentioned to us as far back as the early 70s. I learned oral tradition a decade later which supported the scientists' 2 wave theory.

And now (in your 2nd sentence) you are the one who is not making sense. What do you mean that the story is a myth validating social stratification & the denial of any kinship between the chiefs and the maka'ainana? And what about the oral traditions of Koko Willis and Pali Lee's version of the earlier Polynesians whose religious ways were different? Then you have the differences of gods being worshipped, how they went from worshipping one true god to many, the introduction of a class system of which was not used (apparently) prior in the islands, the differences of names (or actually repitition) of names in the different branches of genealogies yet leading back to the same source?

Hmm, now I think I am really getting confused at this whole format I may be repeating my responses to your responses of which I probably already responded to.

''Fornander is comparatively late. He gathered his materials in 1870-1871, and published in 1878-1880. The introduction to my copy of Malo says that the manuscript Emerson used dates from approximately 1840. The essays republished in Kamakau's Ka Po'e Kahiko were published between 1866 and 1871. There are several generations between Malo and Fornander. Less time between Fornander and Kamakau.''

Thanks for the dates Zora, I have Fornander's collection as well as Malo's and all of Kamakau's minus the latest book they came out with, a continuation of Kamehameha. In any case, I know that Malo predates all others. But thanks for reiterating.

There is so much in Fornander and Kepelino that is clearly missionary influenced that none of it can be completely trusted to be representative of pre-contact Hawai'i.

Kepelino is one person I never looked into, but this is the reason why I suspected the Hawaiiloa story was missionary influenced. However, you probably overlooked what I wrote about sharing genealogies with the Maoris. Honestly, I still think that some of it is missionary influenced, as I re-read (again since you mentioned it) how Fornander mentions specific people and their complexion which is like in the bible. In any case, these names in the genealogical tree do appear (to some extent) with other Polynesians, or more specifically with the Maoris. Not unless the same missionary or group of missionaries were smart enough to gather these hundreds and hundreds of names and attached them to actual biblical characters. But who is to say that they were NOT the same people? What if they were? Good example is the first man, Kumuhonua. Could be the same as Adam since he is known in western society as being the first man. But in the Hawaiian tradition, (which Fornander mentions under the Hawaiialoa section of which I said he gathered his source of Kamakau as well as Kepelino) Kumuhonua was known by other names, depending on the time. And his name (unless it was totally made up) closely resembles Adam's name, and I'm not talking the Hawaiianized name - Akamu.

But let's look at Malo's book pg. 234 called THE FLOOD. The first section could easily be seen as missionary influence as well.

''You keep turning this into black-and-white, oral tradition is perfect or it is worthless ... it's neither. It's something to be weighed carefully. It's entirely possible, for instance, for a genealogy to be mythical for some generations and then shade into something that's as much history as anything written down.''

Yes, finally you agree! It is NEITHER perfect nor worthless. And I agree, it is something to be weighed...of course carefully. However, in your previous posts, you seemed to discount them. And I agree with EVERYTHING you wrote above. I of all people should know that because I have experienced it myself, so this is not new to me.

''But that is no proof of the second wave theory, necessarily. It could well be independent evolution.''

No, it's not proof of the SECOND wave, but the first settlement, or earliest settlement. The point I was making was that there are things in the culture that scientists have verified as belonging (if not being similar) to a particular group, versus other cultural aspects belonging to another group.

Well, for one thing, the antiquity of the Hawaiiloa story.

I'd say that the genealogy in Hawaiiloa holds true. Everything else however, the flood, the progenitors of different groups of people, that may be suspect. Besides, I had to re-read Fornander's version again b/c I didn't read it very well, but rather paid close attention to the names listed on the genealogical chart.

''But Mamoahina, you aren't the sole representative of your culture, people, ancestors. Just because someone says something that you, or you and some of your friends, don't like, that doesn't prove that he/she is anti-Hawaiian. It just means that he/she disagrees with you.''

Opponents usually use this exact term Zora. They say that we are not the only representatives of the culture, of the people. Of course not. We're only one person with a voice, but apparently it is that one voice that just doesn't rub certain people the right way. And why did you bring up "anti-Hawaiian"? Unless you assume that I am pointing to you as such a person. I only know of one person who likes to tout that title around via the internet and through the Honolulu Adverstiser, because other than that, I don't hear too many people using that.

''If they're in Lilikala's department, I'm afraid that wouldn't prove a thing to me. Sorry.''

I am not sure if they work with Lilikala, but if you have a personal vendetta against Lilikala, fear not because I wasn't referring to her.

''If it's a viewpoint that a number of people share, it should be in Wikipedia. ''

This sounds hypocritical, n'est-pas? Because you just told me that I am not the sole rep. of the Hawaiian people, yet here you are saying that if it's a viewpoint shared by a number of people, as if you are stating that my viewpoint is only ONE. Believe me, if I could have a bunch of people (regardless of ethnicity) responding in here who is familiar with the oral traditions, I would think then that it would be something worth putting/leaving in Wikipedia because as you say, it is shared viewpoint by a number of people.

''We try to handle controversy not be declaring one side right, but by stepping back and saying, "Some people believe A and some believe B", and giving a good enough description of each position that the reader can decide which to believe. ''

This seems logical and the right thing to do. However judging from the comments posted here previously, I'd have to say that this is EXACTLY what was being done, that they (without being specific) are saying that one thing is right over another.

''only thing is ... we can't do much of that in the Hawaii article, since it's already oversized.''

Not sure about that. I see links, etc., so I guess I can understand (although still not Wikipedia savvy) mentioning something briefly and linking them to its own page so that the main page would not be so large?

''An article on "Theories of Native Hawaiian origins and migrations" might be useful, however, and give us more space to lay everything out. Or we could rework the Hawaiian antiquities article.''

A separate page for it would be good, so that way (as I just said) the main page would not be so cluttered and unnecessarily lengthy.

''Don't worry about that. It takes a while to get the hang of things here, and I'm not sure I have done so entirely. It is clear to me that you are here to discuss things honestly and politely, and that's the important thing.''

Only because I realized that there was a "discussion" portion after, rather than just "edit" like I did with the hapa page. Now that I know this exists, and although I really don't care for Wikipedia (but was concerned of its contents since someone pointed me to these pages) I figured it would be at least beneficial to discuss about the contents, rather than taking stuff out which usually is someone's hard work. Mamoahina

Hawaii as one of two states where Caucasians are not majority?
In the second paragraph, the article states that Hawaii is one of only two US States that has a non-Caucasian majority. What is the other US state? According to the other state articles on Wikipedia, no other state (as of the 2000 census) has a ethnic/racial population where whites were not the majority. Does anyone have any definitive arguments as to why this statement shouldn't be amended?
 * The other state is California. The census data shows that California has only 46.7% non-Hispanic white.   --KeithH 07:29, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Heh, I might have guessed New Mexico. - Gilgamesh 08:06, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...that's interesting. Gotta check the census website.  California is the one that gets all the news.  - KeithH 07:11, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Length
Considering the length of the article (if it reaches approximately 33 kb, some editors using older computers are locked out from editing the page), I think there needs to be serious considerations in deleting some information that might not be necessary. For example, I question the need to list the "25 Richest Places in Hawaii" and a list of unwikified crime stories in the trivia section that even most Hawaii residents don't know about. --Gerald Farinas 14:41, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are right. We need to start moving things off to their own pages. Although the two examples you give are, I agree, not much of a contribution to this article, their removal will not make enough difference towards reducing the size to make such a move worth while. I'd suggest looking to one or more of the larger subsections and use to start another article. Also, is it necessary to have a several paragraph "summary" of say History, when there is a whole article and more on the subject elsewhere.  I'm not suggesting "History" be the first to reduce, but consider some "less popular" subjects like Media in Hawaii to expand out to a separate article leaving only a prominent link behind.  That will make progress to getting the article back under 33 kb. Chipping away at statements you do not like simply won't achieve what you are seeking - Marshman 19:00, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the housecleaning, Marshman. Zora 20:31, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks. We got more to go if we want to get the article size down as Gerald suggests. - Marshman 03:58, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the "25 Richest Places in Hawaii" and replaced it with a link to Richest Places in Hawaii, as Gerald suggested. Marshman was right, though, as its removal doesn't make much of a difference (it amounted to about 1KB). However, I figure it's progress either way so I went ahead with it. If you disagree with the change, feel free to revert my changes. 青い(Aoi) 09:29, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that was a good candidate to move as Gerald suggested. I was really commenting on the one liner under Trivia and similar changes that are more cosmetic than size reducing.- Marshman 18:09, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Picture of Akaka Falls is obscene
The photograph of Akaka Falls on the Hawaii page looks more or less like female genitalia. Perhaps we have other pictures of this waterfall? 200.247.157.204

 * Perhaps you need to worry about YOUR state of mind, when you see genitalia everywhere? I don't see anything wrong with the picture. Zora 05:36, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't see it everywhere, just in this one picture with the large slit going down the middle. You seem to be defensive. 200.247.157.204
 * Ha! I must say, your interpretation is possible, but hardly the only thing one sees looking at that picture. Indeed, "more or less" is more of a reflection on your mind and less about the waterfall. But, certainly no reason to change the picture! But in your defense, the ancient Hawaiians would have loved your interpretation. They saw human genetalia in all sorts natural formations, and typically the more of "more or less" there was the more likely they would have seen it and treated the place accordingly and reverently. - Marshman 03:07, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I recommend that 200.247.157.204 visit Rorschach inkblot test. --Viriditas | Talk 06:39, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

With the use of actual photographs of genitalia on the penis, vagina and masturbation articles, then we can surely use photos that seem to imply genital symbolism in natural geological formation. --Gerald Farinas 16:01, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Manual of Style for Hawaii-related articles
Is there enough of a debate over the naming conventions to have to hunker down and compile a comprehensive Manual of Style for Hawaii-related articles. I think it would be helpful if we can codify some type of fixed outline of how all Hawaii-related articles should be treated in terms of naming conventions, proper use of 'okina and kahako and what not. Anyone agree? Disagree? -Jamie

 * I would agree. If Japanese transliteration conventions are allowed to have their way, then Hawaiian transliteration conventions should too.  Especially, the nuances of difference between the use of "Hawaii" and "Hawai‘i" should be clearly stated.  Though they have the same etymology, in Hawai‘i convention they are separate words for the contexts they are used. - Gilgamesh 00:54, 29 July 2004 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia has its WikiProjects where standard guidelines for categories of articles are documented. I noticed Texas has a WikiProject page.  Perhaps we should have a WikiProject Hawaii and document these guidelines and style conventions? - KeithH 07:27, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hawaii/Archive 4


text:
Talk:Simpsons-Sears Limited

Redirect
You have nothing here that is not a part of the Sears Canada article. You even say to go there for more information. Hence, it is perfect for a redirect. -- Cabhan 03:58, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I am starting to take formal steps to accomplish just that.  Schuminweb 23:59, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Simpsons-Sears Limited


text:
User:Fuzzypony

Career United States Navy (now retired)

Naval and Civil Engineering and Architecture: 1973-present.

I am also a devoted Naval Historian that has written ships histories, both on a volunteer and paid level, for 30 years.

If it floats (or even sinks!) I'm interested. I have always believed the axiom that a ship is called "she" because they cost so much to keep in paint and powder. It isn't Politically Correct, but is VERY accurate!

title: User:Fuzzypony


text:
Mohammad Nosrati

Mohammad Nosrati (, born 11 January 1982) is an Iranian football coach and former player. He is the current head coach of the Pars Jonoubi Jam team in the Azadegan League. Mohammad Nosrati is a former player of the Iranian national football team and has played in the 2006 World Cup. He is a member of club teams, Tehran Pass, Persepolis, Al-Nasr, Traktor, Peykan, Gostaresh foolad, Naft Tehran ،mashin sazi ،Iran's national team goal scorer against Bahrain and promotion to the 2006 World Cup ،And has a record of winning the 2002 Asian Under-23 Games in Busan

Pas Tehran
Nosrati started his career at Aboomoslem, he left the club to join PAS in 2001. He was one of many valuable players of Pas Tehran, finishing the 2003–04 season as Iran Pro League champions. There had been some notable interest shown in him from outside Iran—most notably he was officially linked to 2003 Croatian champions, Dinamo Zagreb, but rejected the offer citing that he wanted to play in a better European league. He dispelled speculation of which European team he would sign with when he signed a three-year extension with Pas in 2005. He also played in AFC Champions League for Pas. After Pas Tehran was disqualified, Nosrati left the club and did not join the newly formed Pas Hamedan.

Persepolis
On February 9, 2007 it was said Nosrati signed with Belgian League outfit R.E. Mouscron on a 5-month contract after a successful trial and passing medical tests, however the deal was not completed as terms and conditions could not be agreed on. He moved to Persepolis in August 2007 and won the league in his first and only season.

Al-Nasr and Tractor
In 2008, he moved to Al-Nasr in the United Arab Emirates and joined Luka Bonačić's team. He played in most of the matches for Al-Nasr but it was reported that he was unhappy in the United Arab Emirates and wanted to move back to Persepolis. He finally joined newly promoted Iran Pro League club Tractor. Nosrati moved back to his old club in the UAE Al-Nasr in late January 2010. He moved back to Tractor in summer of 2010 and stayed there for a season.

Persepolis
He signed a contract with Persepolis on 27 June 2011. He was indefinitely suspended by the Iranian football federation for "immoral acts" after he squeezed his teammate Sheis Rezaei's buttocks during a goal celebration. His suspension was come to end on 26 December 2011. After his suspension he became the regular player for the team again but was named in transfer list after the end of the season and was transfer to his former club Tractor.

Tractor
At Tractor he was one of the key players of the team which became the runners-up in the league for the first time in the club's history. He also helped the club win the Hazfi Cup in his second season at the club.

Paykan
On 19 June 2014, Nosrati joined Paykan.

Club career statistics

 * Assist Goals

International career
Nosrati made his debut for Iran in 2002 in a game against Jordan and since that moment has had a somewhat stable role in the squad. Already labeled a talented youngster before that debut, he has consistently made a balanced and overall good impression. After being one of the Asian Games 2002 gold medal winners, he was marked as a fixed defender in the national team despite being only 20 years old at the time. He was in Iran's squad in 2004 Asian Cup and scored an important goal against Oman in group stages in 92nd minute. He also won the 2004 West Asian Football Federation Championship with Team Melli.

He was among Iran's final squad for World Cup 2006. He also played in 2007 AFC Asian Cup qualification and after a long injury played in 2007 Asian Cup. He played in 2010 FIFA World Cup qualification and 2014 FIFA World Cup qualification for Team Melli. He continued to be one of the regular players in 2011 AFC Asian Cup qualification. He played in West Asian Football Federation Championship 2010 and 2011 Asian Cup.

International goals

 * Scores and results list Iran's goal tally first.

Honours

 * Pas Tehran
 * Iran Pro League (1): 2002–03 (Runner-up), 2003–04, 2005–06 (Runner-up)

 * Persepolis
 * Iran Pro League (1): 2007–08

 * Tractor
 * Iran Pro League: 2012–13 (Runner-up)
 * Hazfi Cup (1): 2013–14

 * Country
 * Asian Games Gold Medal (1): 2002
 * West Asian Football Federation Championship (1): 2004
 * AFC/OFC Cup Challenge (1): 2003

title: Mohammad Nosrati


text:
User talk:143.183.121.3

Nomination of Jean-Yves Bouguet for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Jean-Yves Bouguet is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Jean-Yves Bouguet until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. Boleyn (talk) 19:06, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

title: User talk:143.183.121.3


text:
Talk:Motorväg

Untitled
'''The template link above to the VfD discussion doesn't work. Here is one that does.''' Bishonen | talk 13:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

It appears that something should be done with this—merge? redirect? move?—but the VfD doesn't establish a clear consensus on what.Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:01, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I was convinced that the interpretation of the vote would be to move it to transportation in Sweden myself. In any case, it's not a valid entry here at English Wikipedia, so I'm redirecting it instead.
 * Peter Isotalo 00:51, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

 * There is no reason to move this page to transportation in Sweden. If this page should be moved, Autobahn should be moved to transportation in Germany and Autoput shold be moved to transportation in Serbia and Montenegro. /E70 13:18, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Please read the discussion in the VfD. "Motorväg" is not a term similar to "Autobahn" and neither is it used in English in any context. It is simply an English loanword that means the exact same thing as motorway, something that can be confirmed by looking the word up in NEO. Since Wikipedia is not a dictionary, this is as irrelevant as making a separate article for "motorway" at Swedish Wikipedia. Please respect our policies.
 * Peter Isotalo 15:48, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

 * It is you who are not have any respect for the policies. "Motorväg" is a term who are similar to "Autobahn", "Autoroute", "Autostrada" and "Autoput". Before you move this to transportation in Sweden you should move "Autobahn" to transportation in Germany, "Autoroute" to transportation in France, "Autostrada" to transportation in Italy and "Autoput" to transportation in Serbia and Montenegro. If you do that it is ok. If you dont do that it means you are only interested to destroy this only because I made the article. Im tired about you Isotalo. /E70 12:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Read the VfD which is more or less an echo of my argumentation and is more or less unanimous (though with some confusion exactly where to redirect). "Motorväg" means motorway, end of story. It can be confirmed by any Swedish-English dictionary and is confirmed by looking this up in, for example, NE. Make your contributions to the proper article or perhaps motorway, but please don't push this. You're not getting any support by claiming how tired you are of me or how I'm out to get you. Unlike Swedish Wikipedia people here actually care more for objectivity and quality than the misguided opinions of individual users (or abusive admins).
 * Peter Isotalo 15:09, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I have looked at this discussion and the edit history, and I recommend E70 to read the VFD and also Civility, and to make no more reverts without first coming up with a reasoned argument. Personal attacks on Peter Isotalo don't count as reasoned argument; you need to address the points he makes about the difference in kind between "Motorväg" on the one hand and "Autobahn", "Autoroute", "Autostrada" and "Autoput" on the other. The fact that you "made the article" doesn't give you any special authority over it, I'm afraid. Bishonen | talk 15:45, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Motorväg means motorway, Autobahn is also means motorway, same with autoput. Change the other articles before you change this please. Peter Isotalo dont know anything about motorways but i know he hates me and in Swedish Wikipedia he made a lot of provocations to me. /E70 11:27, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The article motorväg is now redirected to List of motorways in Sweden. I hope this is ok now. I also hope this was the last time I saw Peter Isotalo destroy the articles I made here. /E70 12:20, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for compromising, E70. Please try to refrain from these constant personal attacks, though. All of this is in accordance with the policies of English Wikipedia. It's hardly fair to claim that I "destroy" articles because I'm trying to help them abide by these policies.

Peter Isotalo 14:18, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Wrong colour on the motorväg road sign
The Swedish road sign, like the rest of Europe I believe (including Germany), has the white roads in perspective with the white bridge on a green background, not blue.

title: Talk:Motorväg


text:
User:Masterhatch

 * My edit history

MOS:LAYOUT
 * Helpful links

MOS:VAR

Special:PendingChanges

Special:NewPages

Manual of Style

WikiProject Orphanage

Disambiguation pages with links

Articles for deletion

Merging

I just don't like it

Proposed deletion

Dashboard

Edit requests

Content assessment

Article titles

Short description

 * Some quotes
 * Did you know that if Wayne Gretzky had never scored a goal, he would have still won 4 scoring titles and still be the all time National Hockey League career leader in points?
 * Wayne Gretzky: "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."
 * Winston Churchill once said to a woman berating him for changing his position, “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, madam?”
 * "Katheen, I've been a nobleman for 400 years. I've lived in castles and palaces among the richest people of any age. Never...never have a stood in greater luxury than surrounds me now. This is a chamber of marvels. There isn't a king, or queen, or emperor that I have ever known or eaten who would step in this room and ever agree to leave it again. I knew the future would bring wonders. I did not know it would make them ordinary." Dracula (2020 TV series). I think this is exactly what is wrong with the world today. People don't know how good they have it and a little perspective would go a long, long way.
 * 20 October 2015 Stephen Harper, "While tonight’s result is certainly not the one we had hoped for, the people are never wrong."
 * Milton Friedman: "A society that puts equality — in the sense of equality of outcome — ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom. The use of force to achieve equality will destroy freedom, and the force, introduced for good purposes, will end up in the hands of people who use it to promote their own interests."
 * Geoffrey Michael Hopf: "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times."
 * In 1975, Ronald Reagan said, "If fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the name of Liberalism."
 * "It's the economy, stupid" — James Carville
 * "We have recently switched to drinking water bottles out of...water, when we have water bottles...out of a plastic...sorry...away from plastic towards paper...like drink-box, water-bottle sorta things." — Justin Trudeau

My travels...
🇨🇦 Canada (birth country) · 🇺🇸 United States · 🇲🇽 Mexico · 🇰🇷 South Korea · 🇯🇵 Japan · 🇰🇵 North Korea · 🇨🇳 China · 🇬🇧 United Kingdom (🏴 England) · 🇫🇷 France · 🇧🇪 Belgium · 🇳🇱 Netherlands · 🇩🇪 Germany · 🇨🇿 Czech Republic · 🇦🇹 Austria · 🇮🇹 Italy · 🇻🇦 Vatican City · 🇨🇭 Switzerland · 🇲🇨 Monaco · 🇪🇸 Spain · 🇵🇹 Portugal
 * Countries I've been to:

British Columbia (birth province) · Alberta · Saskatchewan · Ontario · Quebec · Manitoba
 * Canadian provinces I've been to

California · Washington · Texas · North Dakota · Montana · South Dakota · Wyoming
 * U.S. states I've been to:

Articles I created
I have created 650 articles as of 13 March 2024. Combined, they have had over 23 million views. The following is a list of most of those articles. It does not include disambig, talk, or redirect pages. It also doesn't include page moves, mergers, or other special pages: 12th century in Canada

1910 NHA season

1910–11 NHA season

1911–12 NHA season

1921–22 WCHL season

1922–23 WCHL season

1923–24 WCHL season

1924–25 WCHL season

1925–26 WHL season

1926–27 PHL season

1927–28 NHL season

1927–28 PHL season

1928–29 NHL season

1929–30 NHL season

1930–31 NHL season

1931–32 NHL season

1933–34 NHL season

1934–35 NHL season

1935–36 NHL season

1936–37 NHL season

1937–38 NHL season

1938–39 NHL season

1941–42 NHL season

1945–46 NHL season

1946–47 NHL season

1948–49 NHL season

1949–50 NHL season

1951–52 NHL season

1952–53 NHL season

1953–54 NHL season

1954–55 NHL season

1955–56 NHL season

1956–57 NHL season

1957–58 NHL season

1958–59 NHL season

1960–61 NHL season

1961–62 NHL season

1962–63 NHL season

1963–64 NHL season

1964–65 NHL season

1965–66 NHL season

1966–67 NHL season

1967–68 NHL season

1968–69 NHL season

1969–70 NHL season

1970–71 NHL season

1972–73 WHA season

1973 WHA Amateur Draft

1973–74 NHL season

1973–74 WHA season

1974–75 NHL season

1974–75 WHA season

1975–76 NHL season

1976–77 NHL season

1977–78 NHL season

1977–78 WHA season

1978–79 NHL season

1978–79 WHA season

1979–80 NHL season

1980–81 NHL season

1981–82 NHL season

1982–83 NHL season

1983–84 NHL season

1984–85 NHL season

1985–86 NHL season

1986–87 NHL season

1998–99 NHL season

2007 Stanley Cup playoffs

50 goals in 50 games

Alain Cote (ice hockey, born 1957)

Alain Cote (ice hockey, born 1967)

Alexei Morozov

Allan Shields

Andre Binette

Anglin Lake

Antelope Lake (Saskatchewan)

Antti Aalto

Arm River (Saskatchewan)

Armit River

Atton Lake

Avonlea Creek

Baldy Lake

Baldy Northcott

Basin Lake (Saskatchewan)

Beaupré Lake

Beatty Lake (Saskatchewan)

Big Muddy Lake

Big Sandy Lake (Saskatchewan)

Big River (Saskatchewan)

Big Shell Lake

Bigstick Lake

Bill McCreary Jr.

Billy Harris (ice hockey, born 1935)

Billy Harris (ice hockey, born 1952)

Billy Taylor (ice hockey, born 1919)

Billy Taylor (ice hockey, born 1942)

Birchbark Lake

Bobby Baun

Bobby Gould (ice hockey)

Boggy Creek (Saskatchewan)

Boundary Dam Reservoir

Bow River (Saskatchewan)

Bradwell Reservoir

Brennan Evans

Brightsand Lake

Brightwater Creek

Broderick Reservoir

Bronson Forest Recreation Site

Bryan Adams (ice hockey)

Buffer Lake

Butch McDonald

Buzz Boll

C. J. Young

Candle Lake Provincial Park

Cannington Lake (Saskatchewan)

Caribou Creek

Chaplin Lake

Charron Lake (Saskatchewan)

Chicken Lake

Chico Resch

Chitek Lake (Saskatchewan)

Chris Armstrong (ice hockey)

Christian Ruuttu

Christopher Lake (Saskatchewan)

Clarence Lake

Clarence-Steepbank Lakes Provincial Park

Clearwater Lake (Saskatchewan)

Cleveland Barons (NHL)

Clinton Smith (basketball)

Codette Lake

Cold River (Saskatchewan)

Courtenay Lake

Cowan River

Craven Dam

Crescent Creek (Saskatchewan)

Crooked Lake Provincial Park

Cub Hills

Culdesac Lake

Cumberland Island (Saskatchewan)

Cypress Lake (Saskatchewan)

Danny Markov

Dale Purinton

Davin Lake

Delaronde Lake

Dellwood Reservoir

Dennis Abgrall

Dennis O'Brien (ice hockey)

Don Grierson (ice hockey)

Doug Acomb

Doug Adam

Doug Anderson (ice hockey)

Douglas Provincial Park

Dragline Channel

Eagle Creek (Saskatchewan)

East Trout Lake

Echo Lake (Saskatchewan)

Elaine Lake

Elbow Lake (Saskatchewan)

Elwyn Morris

Emerald Lake (Saskatchewan)

Emma Lake, Saskatchewan

Etomami River

Evgeny Namestnikov

Eyebrow Lake

Eyehill Creek

Fife Lake (Saskatchewan)

Fir River

First Mustus Lake

Flotten Lake

Foam Lake (Saskatchewan)

Fowler Lake

Garry Bauman

Gary Edwards (ice hockey)

Gene Achtymichuk

Geoff Smith (ice hockey)

George Gee (ice hockey)

Gerry Geran

Gino Odjick

Good Spirit Lake

Good Spirit Lake Provincial Park

Gooseberry Lake

Gordon Lake (Saskatchewan)

Graham Creek (Manitoba)

Granite Lake (Saskatchewan)

Great Blue Heron Provincial Park

Great Sand Hills

Greenwater Lake

Greg Adams (ice hockey, born 1960)

Greg Adams (ice hockey, born 1963)

Greg Zanon

Greig Lake (Saskatchewan)

Hanson Lake

Helene Lake

Heritage Lake (Saskatchewan)

Hirsch, Saskatchewan

Hudson Bay Regional Park

Isbister Lake

Island Lake (Saskatchewan)

Ispuchaw Lake

J. F. Quintin

Jack Adams (ice hockey, born 1920)

Jake Forbes (ice hockey)

Jan Lake (Saskatchewan)

Jason Dawe (ice hockey)

Jason Morgan (ice hockey)

Jayjay Lake

Jean-François Fortin (ice hockey)

Jim Paek

John Adams (ice hockey, born 1946)

John Tripp (ice hockey)

Jumbo Lake

Jyrki Seppa

Kazan Lake

Kimball Lake

Kinsmen Ski and Snowboard Centre

Kipabiskau Lake

Lac des Îles (Saskatchewan)

Lac Pelletier

Lady Lake (Saskatchewan)

Lake of the Rivers

Lanigan Creek

Last Mountain Creek

Last Mountain House Provincial Park

Last Mountain Lake National Wildlife Area

Leo Reise Jr.

Limestone Lake (Saskatchewan)

Little Amyot Lake (Saskatchewan)

Little Loon Lake

List of Anaheim Ducks players

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List of Canadian Football League seasons

List of career achievements by Wayne Gretzky

List of Carolina Hurricanes players

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List of current NHL captains and alternate captains

List of Dallas Stars players

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List of Indianapolis Racers players

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List of NHL players (Q)

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List of Ottawa Senators (original) players

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List of Pittsburgh Penguins players

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List of players who played only one game in the NHL

List of pre-NHL seasons

List of Quebec Nordiques players

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List of Washington Capitals players

List of WHA players

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List of Winnipeg Jets (1979–1996) players

Little Fishing Lake

Little Kenosee Lake

Lloyd Andrews

Long Creek (Saskatchewan)

Lost Echo Lake

Lovering Lakes

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title: User:Masterhatch


text:
John Wilder

John Wilder may refer to:

 * John T. Wilder (1830–1917), American soldier and politician
 * John Shelton Wilder (1921–2010), American politician, lieutenant governor of Tennessee
 * John Wilder (producer) (born 1936), American producer and former actor

title: John Wilder


text:
Hwabyeong

Hwabyeong or Hwapyŏng is a Korean somatization disorder, a mental illness which arises when people are unable to confront their anger as a result of conditions which they perceive to be unfair. Hwabyeong is known as a Korean culture-bound syndrome. Hwabyeong is a colloquial name, and it refers to the etiology of the disorder rather than its symptoms or apparent characteristics. In one survey, 4.1% of the general population in a rural area in South Korea were reported as having hwabyeong. Hwabyeong is similar to Amuk.

History
The first reported case of hwabyeon in Korea was Prince Sado (Yi Seon, 1735-1762), Lady Hyegyeong (Prince Sado wife) mentions many times of her husband's anger and symptoms in her autobiography as Hua-tseung, meaning fire symptoms. Prince Sado symptoms of impulsive actions from unfair treatment from his father, king Yeongjo, led him to threaten officials and offend beat his eunuchs. He once walked in his chambers holding the severed head of the eunuch he had killed, killing court officials be came common. Prince Sado's hwabyeong was displayed in the movie “The Throne (film)".

Hwabyeon was first discussed in 1967 and 1970, which survey of the concept of mental illness was done in 1975 in rural areas. In 1983, psychiatrist Keh-Ming Lin from UCLA Medical Center suggested that Hwabyeon was a culture-bond syndrome, after treating three Korean-American women.

The word hwabyeong is composed of hwa (the Sino-Korean word for "fire" which can also contextually mean "anger") and byeong (the Sino-Korean word  for "syndrome" or "illness"). It may also be called ulhwabyeong (울화병, 鬱火病), literally "depression anger illness".

Symptoms
Physical symptoms include:
 * palpitations
 * anorexia
 * dry mouth
 * insomnia
 * thoracic/chest pressure
 * respiratory difficulties
 * epigastric mass
 * headache
 * a whole-body sensation of heat (distinct from heat intolerance, a symptom of hyperthyroidism)

Psychological symptoms include:
 * being easily startled
 * externalization of anger, also known in Korean as "bun" (분, 憤; "eruption of anger"), a Korean culture-related sentiment related to social unfairness
 * generally sad mood
 * frequent sighing
 * a feeling of "eok-ul" (억울, 抑鬱; [feeling of] unfairness)
 * being easily agitated
 * feelings of guilt
 * feelings of impending doom

Diagnosed patients may also have a medical history of prior major depressive disorder, dysthymic disorder, anxiety disorders, somatoform disorders, or adjustment disorder according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM-IV) criteria.

Diagnosed patients are most likely to be middle-aged, post-menopausal women with low socio-economic status.

Causes
Underlying causes may include:
 * amuk
 * prior instances of major depressive disorder
 * prior instances of anxiety disorder
 * prior instances of adjustment disorder
 * prior instances of other somatoform disorders
 * repression of feelings of anger/resentment arising from past events

Triggering causes are typically external events, including:
 * familial stressors, e.g. spousal infidelity or conflict with in-laws
 * witnessing acts/actions/phenomena that conflict with one's own moral and/or ethical principles

The syndrome itself is believed to be the result of the continued repression of feelings of anger without addressing their source. In holistic medicine the containment of anger in hwabyeong disturbs the balance of the five bodily elements, resulting in the development of psychosomatic symptoms such as panic, insomnia, and depression after a long period of repressed feelings.

It is possible that hormonal imbalances such as those around the time of menopause may also be an underlying cause of hwabyeong in middle-aged women, the most often-diagnosed demographic.

Middle-aged or older women have been reported to be more likely to be diagnosed with hwabyeon than men. 87.5% of women and 12.5% of men experience hwabyeon in 1987 report by (Min, Lee, Kang, Lee, 1987). The disparages for women can be pointed to gender roles in Korean culture, which adds considerable amount of stress. Additional stress of financial, domestic abuse, extramarital affiars, and social stigma can contribute to hwabyeon symptoms. Study was conducted with late 30’s to middle 60’s Korean women, which separated by two groups, native Korean and Korean immigrants to the United States. The study measured life stress by exploring factors including individual characteristics of stress response (measured by the Stress Response Inventory) and anger regulation (STAXI-Korean version). External environmental characteristics of life stress (measured by Life stress for Korean women) were also factored in. Data of demographic background, age, family structure, financial and employment status, religion, and educational background were recorded to find correlation to hwabyeon levels.

In the conclusion of the study a slight number of hwabyeon have been reported by native Korean compared to Korean immigrant women, but with higher stress response and life stress also higher than native Korean women. Findings concluded that native and immigrant Korean women share overall numeral risk factors for hwabyeon, but focused on different stress factors. Partial cultural assimilation of western culture has been a factor on cognitive response to hwabyeon, by employing somatic reactions; compare to native Korean women reacting to more negative thoughts. There has been data supporting a slight increase in stress response and anger regulation for Korean immigrants, but data showing both native and immigrant groups having different proportional stress factors. Korean immigrants tend to regulate their anger better than their counterpart, decreasing the effects of hwabyeon.

Treatment
Western doctors are more likely to diagnose it as a kind of stress or depression. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders currently lists hwabyeong among its culture-bound illnesses. Outside of Korea, informally hwabyeong may be mistaken as a reference to a psychological profile marked by a short temper, or explosive, generally bellicose behavior. To the contrary, hwabyeong is a traditional psychological term used to refer to a condition characterized by passive suffering, is roughly comparable to depression, and is typically associated with older women. It is important that when diagnosing hwabyeong, the culture of the patient is well understood. Since hwabyeong can often be misdiagnosed as depression, the symptoms and culture need to be clearly and thoroughly looked into. Once hwabyeong has been diagnosed, past treatments need to be reviewed. The treatments for the patient can then be a combination of pharmacological, and therapy-based interventions.

The treatment methods used to combat hwabyeong include psychotherapy, drug treatment, family therapy, and community approaches. To be more successful, psychiatrists might need to incorporate the teachings from traditional and religious healing methods or the use of han-puri, which is the sentiment of resolving, loosening, unraveling, and appeasing negative emotions with positive ones. One example of han-puri would be a mother who has suffered from poverty, less education, a violent husband, or a harsh mother-in-law, that can be solved many years later by the success of her son for which she had endured hardships and sacrifices.

title: Hwabyeong


text:
Cahaba, Alabama

Cahaba, also spelled Cahawba, was the first permanent state capital of Alabama from 1820 to 1825. It was the county seat of Dallas County, Alabama until 1866. Located at the confluence of the Alabama and Cahaba rivers, the town endured regular seasonal flooding.

The state legislature moved the capital to Tuscaloosa in 1826. After Cahaba suffered another major flood in 1865, the state legislature moved the county seat northeast to Selma, which was better situated.

The former settlement became defunct after it lost the county seat, because it lost associated businesses and jobs. Many people moved to the new seat. Cahaba declined rapidly, although it had been quite wealthy during the antebellum years.

It is now a ghost town and is preserved as a state historic site known as the Old Cahawba Archeological Park. The state and associated citizens' groups are working to develop it as a full interpretive park St. Luke's Episcopal Church was returned to Old Cahawba, and a fundraising campaign is underway for its restoration.

Demographics
Cahawba was listed on the 1860-1880 U.S. Censuses. Although it remained incorporated until as late as 1989, it did not appear on the United States census rolls after 1880.

Capital
Cahaba had its beginnings as an undeveloped town site at the confluence of the Alabama and Cahaba rivers. At the old territorial capital of St. Stephens, a commission was formed on February 13, 1818, to select the site for Alabama's state capital. Cahaba was the site chosen and was approved on November 21, 1818. Due to the future capital site being undeveloped, Alabama's constitutional convention took temporary accommodations in Huntsville until a statehouse could be built.

Governor William Wyatt Bibb reported in October 1819 that the town had been laid out and that lots would be auctioned to the highest bidders. The town was planned on a grid system, with streets running north and south named for trees and those running east and west named for famous men. The new statehouse was a two-story brick structure, measuring 43 ft wide by 58 ft long, located near Vine and Capitol streets. By 1820 Cahaba had become a functioning state capital.

Due to its lowland location at the confluence of two large rivers, Cahaba was subject to seasonal flooding. It also had a reputation for an unhealthy atmosphere, when people thought that miasma in the air caused such diseases as malaria, yellow fever, and cholera. The numerous mosquitoes carried disease.

People who were opposed to the capital's location at Cahaba used this as an argument for moving the capital to Tuscaloosa, which was approved by the legislature in January 1826. That was not a long-term success, and it was moved again in 1846 to centrally located Montgomery, Alabama.

After the relocation of the capital, Cahaba was adversely affected by the loss of state government and associated business.

Antebellum
The town served as the county seat of Dallas County for several more decades. Based on revenues from the cotton trade, the town recovered from losing the capital, and reestablished itself as a social and commercial center.

Centered in the fertile "Black Belt", Cahaba became a major distribution point for cotton shipped down the Alabama River to the Gulf port of Mobile. Successful planters and merchants built two-story mansions in town that expressed their wealth. St. Luke's Episcopal Church was built in 1854, designed by the nationally known architect, Richard Upjohn.

When Cahaba was connected to a railroad line in 1859, a building boom was stimulated. In 1860 On the eve of the American Civil War, the town had 2,000 residents, according to the US Census. Some 64% were enslaved African Americans, reflecting the population of Dallas County, which was 75% black. Most were fieldworkers on cotton plantations. But in the town, free people of color dominated the poultry business.

Civil War
During the Civil War, the Confederate government seized Cahaba's railroad and appropriated the iron rails to extend a nearby railroad of more military importance. It built a stockade around a large cotton warehouse on the riverbank along Arch Street in order to use it as a prison, known as Castle Morgan. It was used for Union prisoners-of-war from 1863 to 1865.

In February 1865 a major flood inundated the town, causing much additional hardship for the roughly 3000 Union soldiers held in the prison, and for the town's residents. Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest and Union General James H. Wilson met in Cahaba at the Crocheron mansion to discuss an exchange of prisoners captured during the Battle of Selma.

Postbellum
In 1866, the state legislature moved the county seat to nearby Selma. Related businesses and population soon followed. Within ten years, many of the houses and churches in Cahaba were dismantled and moved away. St. Luke's Episcopal Church, for example, was moved in 1878 to Martin's Station.

Jeremiah Haralson represented Cahawba and Dallas County when elected to the State House, the State Senate and the United States Congress. He was the only African American in Alabama elected to all three legislative bodies during Reconstruction.

Together with the minority of whites, most freedmen rapidly left the declining town. By 1870, the overall population was 431, and the number of blacks was 302. During the Reconstruction era, freedmen organizing in the Republican Party and trying to keep their "moderate political gains" met regularly at the vacant county courthouse. Freedmen and their families gradually developed vacant town blocks into fields and garden plots. But they soon moved away.

Prior to the turn of the 20th century, a freedman purchased most of the old town site for $500. He had the abandoned buildings demolished for their building materials and shipped the material by steamboat to Mobile and Selma for use in growing communities. By 1903, most of Cahawba's buildings were gone; only a handful of structures survived past 1930.

Modern
Although the area is no longer inhabited, the Alabama Historical Commission maintains the site as Old Cahawba Archeological Park. It was added to the National Register of Historic Places in 1973. Visitors to this park can see many of the abandoned streets, cemeteries, and ruins of this former state capital and county seat. The Cahawba Advisory Committee is a non-profit group based in Selma that serves to support the park; it also maintains a website related to the park and its history. It is conducting fundraising to support the restoration of St. Luke's Episcopal Church, which was relocated to Old Cahawba in the early 21st century.

Folklore
The town, and later its abandoned site, was the setting for many ghost stories during the 19th and 20th centuries. A widely known one tells of a ghostly orb in a now-vanished garden maze at the home of C. C. Pegues. The house was located on a lot that occupied a block between Pine and Chestnut streets. The purported haunting was recorded in “Specter in the Maze at Cahaba” in 13 Alabama Ghosts and Jeffrey.

Notable people

 * George Henry Craig, born in Cahaba, former U.S. Representative
 * Anderson Crenshaw, former Alabama judge who served in the circuit and state court when this was the state capital
 * Jeremiah Haralson, born in Dallas County, he was the only African American in the state elected to the State House, State Senate, and Congress during the Reconstruction era. Was deprived of re-election in 1876 by fraud by the Dallas County Sheriff General Charles M. Shelley.
 * Edward Martineau Perine, merchant and planter; owner of the Perine Store and the Perine Mansion on Vine Street

title: Cahaba, Alabama


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Halo (movie)

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was keep (no consensus) (breakdown: keep 15, delete 12, 4 merge, 3 votes not counted). - Mgm|(talk) 11:54, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Halo (movie)

 * Delete as speculation. Possibly redirect back to Halo (video game series)? --Idont Havaname 04:05, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep I thought that too, but Yahoo News has several articles about it, it appears to be legitimate. --Sysop073 04:09, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
 * Keep I think its real. --Sysop073 04:16, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
 * This edit by 69.169.44.30 (talk · contributions)
 * Delete. See "Wiki is not a Crystal Ball". Also, its One line hardly says anything.Fabartus 04:32, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The one line is bad, but doesn't merit deletion, and Wikipedia is not a Crystal Ball has an exception for "planning or preparation for the event is already in progress"; whether it merits "encyclopedic inclusion" could be argued either way. --Sysop073 04:51, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
 * Keep as notable. I rounded it up a bit, but maybe someone interested in the topic could go further? Karol 05:35, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete speculation - Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. JamesBurns 06:41, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect to series article. -Sean Curtin 06:54, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, verifiable, no crystal ball necessary. Kappa 06:55, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect to Halo (video game series), WP is not a crystal ball. Imagine if we had an article on every script that someone was trying to sell to Hollywood? Just because Microsoft owns it doesn't except it from the crystall ball policy. Merge & redir though, for being somewhat notable. --bainer (talk) 08:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * M&R as above. Radiant_ >|< 09:59, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect to Halo (video game series), as they say WP is not a crystal ball. MS can pitch it all they like but that doesn't mean it will ever be made, unless the speculation becomes more concrete then imo it's only really worth noting in the context of the game. -- Lochaber 10:05, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Often-misused crystall ball argument only applies if non-verifiable Proto 10:07, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. According to news stories on Google News, Fox and Universal studios are negotiating with Microsoft to make this movie. There is already verifiable information and quite a deal of buzz. Capitalistroadster 10:22, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * KEEP Proto said it best above. --ShaunMacPherson 12:28, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Exempt from crystal ball rule because the game impact is huge, a legitimate, well-known writer wrote the script, and Microsoft bought it. If it were in the stage of the author negotiating with Microsoft, than we'd need that crystal ball.  But not at this stage. --Scimitar 13:35, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Making a statement like "The might be a Spider-Man V released in 2015" would be a crystal ball event, but this is verfiable.23skidoo 17:00, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete: It is unverifiable. All the article establishes is that some dude wrote a script and that MS bought it.  How many scripts are bought in a year that don't ever get made?  Note that this was not bought by a studio, but by Microsoft.  There is no movie.  There is a desire for a movie.  Imagine what it would have been like if someone had written an article on the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (movie) back in 1990.  After all, a script had been written, and, what's more, the rights had been sold to an actual studio.  When did the movie actually come out?  2005.  It's just happy feet to think that this is unlike any other crystal ball article.  Delete until the thing actually exists.  Right now, it isn't even in the process of being born. Geogre 18:58, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * De;ete, speculation. RickK 19:49, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * keep please it seems verifiable enough Yuckfoo 20:38, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. --Carnildo 21:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. WINACB. This "movie" hasn't even entered pre-production yet – all there is is a script. There are many, many more scripts-seeking-a-studio out there that don't have the backing of a giant corporation. Do they all deserve articles? I wouldn't object to a couple of lines being added to the main Halo article about this potential movie, but for it to have its own article at this point in time is rather premature. A и D я 01D  TALK  EMAIL  23:31, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. I have added to the article. In my view, the fact that the film is a Microsoft developed project clearly makes it notable. Microsoft has reached a tentative agreement with 20th Century Fox and Universal Pictures and the project represents the first film project associated with Microsoft is a notable fact. The crystal ball rule should only apply when there are serious doubts about verifiability and/or notability. There are 57 news articles on Google News currently about this project. as at the time of this vote indicating both the presence of verifiable information and notability. If this article were to be deleted, it would only be recreated shortly as the project proceeds. There is obvious potential for this article to expand as well. Capitalistroadster 00:21, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep You 20:37, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep An article ON THE speculation isn't crystal ball future predicting. Obviously notable. Obviously verifiable. STudios are fighting over the script, it'll happen. SchmuckyTheCat 15:28, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment []... You 23:55, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep C'mon people, this article shouldn't be deleted. Y'all should know that this article is important. There will be a Halo movie. --John-1107 05:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge and Redirect Indiana Jones 4, a potential film at a similar stage of development, doesn't have its own page, but is rather included on the Indiana Jones page. A Halo move, while important, should be tried the same way.  (Unsigned vote by 65.207.98.2 09:57, Jun 17, 2005
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .