text:
Talk:Tigrinya language

Romanisation: How about subscript dots for ejectives?
I've just gone thru & normalised the Romanisation thruout, except in the table of signs in the writing system. Currently, ejectives are represented by a consonantal letter sign followed by a tick, as in the IPA. Impressionistically, it seems to me that most scholars who write about the Semitic languages of Eritrea & Ethiopia more frequently use a subscript dot—‹ṣ› rather than ‹s'›—& then ‹q› instead of ‹k'›. This is what a reader will find if they refer to Leslau's Documents Tigrigna or Lane's Tigrinya-English dictionary, or Voigt's Das tigrinische Verbalsystem, or Ullendorf's A Tigrinya Chrestomathy. Mason's grammar & Tesfamariam's textbook both use (different) idiosyncratic systems based on this. Tadross & Teklu's Essential Guide uses an idiosyncratic system quite different from either of these, while Dimtsekal & Tadross' Tigrinya Verb Conjugation uses an idiosyncratic system that's closer to the dotted version. The only major source that I can think of that a reader is likely to use that uses the IPA apostrophes is Tesfay Tewolde Yohannes' A Modern Grammar of Tigrinya, which uses (near typographic approximations to) full IPA—not the mixed system here. Does anyone object to my converting this to the system of Leslau & Kane? (There is one major difference for which I don't think there's much consistency at all in the different sources: the representation of the spirantised velars. For Leslau, these are underlined: ‹ḵ› & ‹q̱›. For Kane, they're ‹ḵ› & ‹q̌›. I'd be inclined to go with Leslau, as the system is consistent & as I think Kane's choice was typographic, but I don't actually care much.) Pathawi (talk) 02:28, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

 * I don't know much about Tigrinya, and haven't seen any of the works you mention here, but it seems that the standard you propose here and that you introduced with your recent edits on the page is the so-called Ethiopianist transcription, which, for example, was enforced on all authors contributing to the Encyclopaedia Aethiopica, and that is also required for contributions to the journal "Aethiopica". Unfortunately, in spite of its wide use, it isn't much of a standard, as people happily use the available symbols in any odd way. This is most notable with the central vowels, as exemplified in your use of the name təgrəññā, which shows the character <ə> as representing a high central vowel, whereas other users happily, and probabably without much consideration, use the same character for the mid central vowel, for which others use <ä>. On top of that, the Ethiopianist tradition leaves uninitiated readers confused, as some of the characters are taken from the IPA inventory, but with differening sound expressions. Therefore, there is a growing number of researchers who see this tradition more as a liability than an asset, and go over to using proper IPA. The more responsible users of the Ethiopianist transcription (not Voigt, for example, but normally Bender, Appleyard and Leslau) provide an unambiguous match-up of their characters with the IPA. I would therefore advocate using IPA transcriptions in Wikipedia wherever possible, that is based on the explanation provided by these authors, even if they use Ethiopianist transcriptions in their data. That wouldn't constitute original research, if you ask me. LandLing 06:13, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that that switching to full IPA wouldn't constitute original research—I'd think that it would be a pretty near analogy of what the No Original Research policy calls "routine calculations". However, neither this article nor Ge'ez however was using IPA before my edits: Both were using multiple Romanisations inconsistently. In this article, the ejectives are currently consistently using the IPA ejective marking (except in the orthographic table at the end), but that's not true of other signs. The article was not otherwise consistent. So for example, before I began editing for consistency, every occurrence on this page of /ɨ/ was represented ‹ə› except for in the Romanisation of ትግርኛ (/tɨɡrɨɲɲa/ or /tɨɡrɨɲːa/), which was represented as ‹tigriññā›. Elsewhere in the page, ‹i› was always /i/, & /a/ was ‹a›—not ‹ā›.
 * I don't have a strong feeling against use of the IPA, but I do have a few thoughts:
 * I think that ‹ə› is actually the only sign borrowed from the IPA by the Encyclopedia Aethiopica-ish Romanisations. I don't know the history of this, tho it predates the EAe by decades (in fact, I think it was borrowed by both Ethiopicists & the IPA from German philological work). Otherwise, I think that most signs are carried over from the set in broad use by Semiticists, including the subscript dots for emphatics.
 * If we were to employ the IPA, we would replace the glottal stop ‹'› → ‹ʔ›, the pharyngeal fricative ‹ʿ› → ‹ʕ›, the palatal nasal ‹ñ› → ‹ɲ‹, the palatal approximant ‹y› → ‹j›, the central vowel ‹ä› → ‹ɐ› or ‹ɛ› &—against the version used by Leslau & Lane—the voiceless velar fricative ‹ḵ› → ‹x›. I'm not sure that it would increase legibility for the uninitiated unless they were already initiated into the IPA, which is not something we should expect of most Wikipedia readers.
 * The Leslau/Lane version of things helps keep it clear that ኽ ‹ḵ› is a spirantised version of ክ ‹k› (an intervocalic allophone which is orthographically recognised). Shifting to ‹x› would make that relationship less clear. I don't know what we'd do with ቕ (‹q̱› for Leslau) which is the equivalent intervocalic partner of ቅ (EAe-ish ‹q›, current article ‹k'›). Tesfay Tewolde Yohannes' grammar represents it as /x'/, presumably to maintain its allophonic relationship with /k'/ & its positional equivalence to [x] as an allophone of /k/. A voiceless ejective velar fricative, however, is not what you're actually going to hear from Tigrinya-speakers.
 * You're absolutely right that there is no standard. However, if a reader goes on from the Wikipedia article to reading work specifically on Tigrinya, I think they're most likely to use one of the sources I listed above. Among these sources, the majority use systems that are close to the EAe. Among those that don't use an EAe-derived system, things are idiosyncratic—there's no alternate recurring system. There is no Tigrinya dictionary or instructional material that uses IPA.
 * It's just not that unusual for linguists to use regional Romanisations: It's true for Indological work, Arabic, Hebrew, the Maya languages, Russian… For a great many of the world's languages that don't use Latin script, there's a scholarly standard that's not the IPA. Meanwhile, choosing the IPA doesn't give us a clear guide for how to handle things in Tigrinya. The vowel that the EAe represents with ‹ə› should probably be /ɨ/, but looking at the past twenty years of sources in Google Scholar that mention Tigrinya, I'm not finding a consistent representation of the EAe's ‹ä›: Is it /ə/? /ɐ/? /ʌ/? /ɛ/? I'm not trying to be difficult: I found all four in just a couple minutes. Meanwhile, there is still scholarly work that uses ‹ä›—even within linguistics. Work within fields other than linguistics—Semitistics, history—are far more likely to use the EAe Romanisation than IPA.
 * That bulleted list probably makes it sound like I have a stronger opinion than I do. My actual strong opinion is that we shouldn't use an idiosyncratic Romanisation, which is what we have right now. The above are many of the reasons that I think that a field-specific Romanisation is the better choice, but I care about that less. I think that either something close to EAe or the IPA would be an improvement. Pathawi (talk) 14:49, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your careful explanation. In a nutshell, I fully agree with you, and support any attempt on your part to bring consistency, at least for some time, into the article. I'd lean rather towards using the IPA for that, but I certainly see the problems with that, as you mention them here. Tigrinya <ቕ>, by the way, is a voiceless pharyngeal plosive, as far as I can tell. So go ahead with the Romanization you currently use, if others don't object to this developing consensus. LandLing 18:05, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Consistency is good, and it's clearly helpful to use a transcription that is likely to be found in the sources that an interested reader will consult. I just want to note that we often have problems with "curly quotes" for the glottal stop and the pharyngeal fricative: they often are "fixed" in MOS:CURLY-cleanups even when the material is lang-tagged. This can be avoided by using hamza and ayin, or alternatively by going a bit in the direction of IPA and use ‹ʔ› and ‹ʕ› instead. –Austronesier (talk) 18:23, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Deletion proposal for Tig (Tigrinya language)
I have proposed the deletion of the page Tig (Tigrinya language). This page aims to clarify the distinctions between Tigrinya, Tigre, Tigrai, & numerous derived terms. You can find the deletion discussion page here: Articles for deletion/Tig (Tigrinya language). Very briefly, I do not oppose some clarification page as such, but rather oppose the invented term tig. I strongly encourage those who are following this page & who have an opinion on the matter to vote or comment at the deletion discussion—whether or not they agree with me. Pathawi (talk) 17:26, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Tigrinya/Tigrigna
In general, we should be consistent about the use of a version of the name of the language within the article. We should definitely mention the existence of alternate spellings, & of course we shouldn't change spellings in direct quotation. But when we're not quoting directly, we don't need to follow the spelling in any particular citation. Pathawi (talk) 17:49, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

 * Im not talking about spelling im talking about the link provided for the number of speakers. What im telling you is that it has "E24" when you put the reference number "e24" the page from the link to Ethnologue is blank. There is no reference number e24 that directs to the page for Tigrigna on Ethnologue. The reason i added reference number 25 is because it directs exactly to the page on Ethnologue for the figure of 9.85 million first language speakers. The link provided as the reference doesn't direct to the 24th edition of Ethnologue for Tigrigna but to the 26th edition which has different estimate of 8.62 million first language speakers. So i added reference number 25 as it has the page for the figure of 9.85 million first language speakers. But i think you didnt understand what i wrote in the edit summary or your just trying at this point to revert any edits i make. I dont care if its called tigrinya or tigrigna that was one edit i made because Ethnologue has it listed as Tigrigna and not Tigrinya and you changed it to Tigrinya and i honestly could care about that but what i care is added the correct reference for the estimate of 9.85 million first language speakers. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 18:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This isnt about infobox name for the language this is about using the correct reference number. The link provided doesnt does not direct to the 24th edition of Ethnologue but to the 26th edition of Ethnologue. When you remove the link and type in reference number "e24" the page to Ethnologue becomes blank. And so i added reference number 25 as it has the figure of 9.85 million first language speakers that's what im trying to explain to you but you keep reverting it and saying the information has to match the information box. When you out the reference number it will have the name listed like the info box name. For example. Tigrinya is written on the infobox, when i remove the reference link that is already provided and add reference number e25, it will say "Tigrinya at Ethnologue (25 edition 2022)" and not Tigrigna which is the name Ethnologue has listed below. I dont care about whatever name you want to call the language. The problem is that the reference is wrong and the reference number is wrong. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 18:08, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to updating the link! Just to changing the spelling. Pathawi (talk) 18:11, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Then move the page to Tigrigna or change the name of the Infobox then. The reference doesnt change the name you can. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 18:15, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't really know what you're saying here, but I don't think it's relevant anymore, as we're agreed on what to link to. I will oppose moving the page, but if you don't care about the spelling then that's a non-issue. Meanwhile, making the link work correctly is. I'm surprised that you accused me of lying, as you know that it's incumbent upon us to Assume good faith. There are many reasons that people get things wrong other than lying. In this case, however, it seems that we were both right under different conditions: When I'm not logged into Ethnologue, your link does not work. When I log into Ethnologue, it does. You should check this yourself to verify. (& you should be more circumspect about accusing fellow editors of lying.) Pathawi (talk) 19:23, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * you said in your edits over here [] that reference number e25 doesn't work. Which is a lie and I have accused you of it because you lied in your edit summary over here saying it does not work when it does. You have removed the date and reference number and added the wrong reference link that does not direct to the page with the same number of first language speakers as stated on the info box. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 19:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I should have mentioned in my previous comment the assume good faith policy. Again: The link you provide does not work if a person is not logged into Ethnologue. You should try this to verify. I'm pretty sure that the link I provided works regardless of whether one is linked in or not. Is that incorrect? You also seem to want this to be linked to an older version of Ethnologue—25th rather than 26th. Why is that? Pathawi (talk) 19:37, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Because the the 26th edition has a DIFFERENT number of first language speakers stated than the one one the infobox. Plus the original 9.85 million estimate from 2020 was accurate because Ethnologue's estimation on language speakers changes also adding reference number 25 directs to the page with the same stated number of 9.85 million first language speakers as stated on the infobox. Also i have logged off and in and it directs to the 26th edition of Ethnologue with the same 8.67 million first language speakers which is different from what's stated on the 25th edition believe me I've checked twice. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 19:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Plus i logged off and in again and it is still the same link from the 26th edition with 8.67 million first language speakers as stated on the website and is different from the 9.85 million first language speakers estimate from the 25th edition on Ethnologue. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 19:35, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know why we would have different experiences of accessibility when logged out. That's very odd. I've now tried this three times with the same results. Why do you want the 25th edition number rather than the 26th? Pathawi (talk) 19:38, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Its hypocritical that you changed the number of first language speakers just because i added reference number 25 and added up first and second language speakers without even a date just to have your link there. You have been reported for vandalism. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 19:45, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with being reported for vandalism: I don't think that anyone's likely to consider this disagreement vandalism. I am perplexed as to why we would have different experiences of following that link: As I've said, I've tried this three times with the same results. It would be interesting to see what others with Ethnologue accounts experience. That issue may be moot, however: I'd like to discuss the E25/E26 choice. I changed the numbers for consistency after you pointed out that they were different. The E26 numbers are SIL's 2023 estimate. Why wouldn't we prefer these over the E25 2022 estimate from the same organisation? Pathawi (talk) 19:48, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * When logged in it still directs to the 26th edition of Ethnologue and not 25th edition with a different estimate of first language speakers than the one from the 25th edition which was earlier written on the infobox with the wrong reference at the time. You then removed reference number e25 which was was the right reference to direct to Ethnologue with the same figure of 9.85 million first language speakers. You removed the whole thing and changed the number of speakers and removed the date and adding the entire number of speakers first and second langyage users combined just to have your link put there. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 19:58, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The link https://www.ethnologue.com/25/language/tir/ does not work for me when logged out. It might be related to one's geolocation. –Austronesier (talk) 20:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have the same experience. I am currently located in Ethiopia. LandLing 16:42, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I am confused about the conversation we're having here. I think part of it is that you are assuming intentions on my side that don't make sense to me, & part of it is that I can't figure out why you want the E25 numbers rather than E26. It is absolutely correct that the number was the E25 number, & I added the E26 link. When you pointed that out, I corrected the number to the E26 number. You're also right that I got the E26 number wrong: That I added the total number rather than the L1 number, which would have been correct. I'm totally fine with changing the 8.83 to 8.67—in fact, I think that's what should happen. Is this acceptable to you? Do you still think that the link to Ethnologue 25 is preferable? If so, can you say why? Pathawi (talk) 20:03, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Why? Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 20:07, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ba-dum ching! Pathawi (talk) 20:07, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * You literally changed the whole thing just to have your link put there. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 20:14, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The part with the accusations probably isn't a useful conversation: You've made the accusation & you've filed a vandalism complaint. If something's going to happen to punish me, you've taken the steps. With regard to the content of the article, are you okay with using E26 numbers? Pathawi (talk) 20:15, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ironic and bold for me to be punished for adding the right reference number when of all people you removed it than added your link removed the number of speakers and date and added a different number of speakers that includes both first and second language speakers without even a date. I discussed with you everything yet you still insisted to have the wrong link added and when you found out this you changed the number of first language speakers. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 20:18, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay. I have not asked for you to be punished & have no intention of doing so. But would you please answer this content-related question: Are you fine with using the correct E26 number? By 'correct', I mean the L1 number, as you've noted—not the total number which I added. Pathawi (talk) 20:24, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It would be much appreciated if the old estimate of 9.85 million with the date and reference number be added back. But if they want to add the 26th edition they can but at least add the correct number of first language speakers. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 20:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay. I'm going to change the number of L1 speakers to reflect what's in E26 as a provisional step forward, as I think that we're both agreed that that's preferable to the current state of affairs. (If you'd like, you can change that number.) You've now confirmed below that you'd prefer to use the E25 numbers. Could you please explain why you'd prefer the older edition's data? Pathawi (talk) 20:35, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Because i believe that to be the preferable number of speakers too avoid any bias towards population estimates for number of speakers. The date should also be added as with all languages so people can know the date year for how many people speak this language. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 20:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm totally fine with including the date. (I had removed it because the citation format I used includes publication date.) Can you explain why you think that the E26 numbers are more biased in population estimates than E25? Pathawi (talk) 20:46, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Because the estimated number of Tigringna speakers in Eritrea changes according to population estimates as with the other languages. The estimate is not permanent and is temporary to fit the 3.6 million population estimate for Eritrea from a differenrt source than the World Factbook. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 21:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It makes sense to me that the estimate is not permanent. What I'm not following is why the older estimate from the same source would be preferable to the newer. (Doesn't it follow from the fact that these estimtes aren't permanent that we should expect new estimates?) I have no idea why the number of Tigrinya-speakers in Eritrea changes between E25 & E26 (can you tell how they get these data?), but for speakers in Australia, Canada, Finland, Germany, & the UK, the E26 numbers reflect more recent censuses. E25 omits Tigrinya-speakers in the US, but they're included in E26. While I don't generally have much faith in Ethnologue's population numbers, for these cases it seems that the more recent data should be more reliable. Pathawi (talk) 21:12, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe the older estimate to be the correct estimate as I believe it to be the right number as based on the World Factbook's estimate as because stated Eritrea has never conducted a national census of the population so given the larger number of speakers would be authentic and look more authentic. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ethnologue's estimation for Tigrinya speakers actually includes mainly population figures from Ethiopia and Eritrea. There is no one source that gives the same population estimate for the number of people in Eritrea. One source says that Eritrea has 3.6 million people in 2023 and another that it has 6.2 million people. Figures for language speakers and ethnicity in Eritrea change according to the population of the country being presented by different sources. It would be better if the 9.85 million first language speakers be restored because it looks authentic in number and also given that likely in the next edition of the Ethnologue it will mention probably 9.9-10 million first language speakers of Tigrigna. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 21:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

 * Query. Is Ethnologue a paywalled service? Because I don't see any information on numbers of speakers on the page without logging in. —C.Fred (talk) 20:10, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes you have to have membership in order to access information for number of speakers. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 20:12, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It is. It didn't used to be, but it has been for a few years now. If you submit data as a volunteer, you can get free access for a year. The normal access cost, however, is expensive enough that even my fairly well-funded US university won't pay for it. Pathawi (talk) 20:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * In the past, Ethnologue provided different access levels based on geolocation (free access for users from developing countries). This might still be the case. –Austronesier (talk) 20:15, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Austronesier That's not gonna help me without lying my way through a VPN. It also means there's no practical way to evaluate the sources, except for those editors who have Ethnologue access. —C.Fred (talk) 20:21, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have only mentioned this as a possible explanation for the different viewing experiences when logged out, as becomes apparent in the above discussion.
 * As for the use of this paywalled source, many WP editors in good standing who actively edit language-related topics have Ethnologue access, so unsupported changes usually get quickly spotted. –Austronesier (talk) 20:28, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Austronesier Thank you for the info on level of acceptance. I'll leave other editors to vet the accuracy. —C.Fred (talk) 20:30, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This becomes a somewhat bigger problem: Wikipedia uses Ethnologue as a source pretty extensively. (I wish that we would not consider Ethnologue a reliable source, but this has been discussed pretty extensively & my viewpoint isn't the prevailing one.) In principle, I'm not sure it's all that different from citing books that are hard to access. There are, fortunately, enough Wikipedia editors with Ethnologue access that there are usually multiple people who can verify any particular datum. In the present instance, & I don't disagree about what Ethnologue says, so I don't think we have a verification issue. I made two mistakes: First, I added a link to the 26th edition when the number listed was for the 25th edition; then, I attempted to correct the number, but used the number of total speakers rather than the number of L1 speakers. The outstanding issues seem to be: 1) That Cookiemonster1618 believes I did this in bad faith. They have filed a vandalism report because of that. I don't know that there's more to discuss, but it seems to be getting in the way of: 2) I think from previous comments that Cookiemonster1618 wants to use the 25th edition number of L1 speakers rather than the 26th edition number. I may be wrong about this, in which case no substantive issue remains. Pathawi (talk) 20:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes i want the 25th edition with the first language speakers added with the date. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 20:33, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with @Pathawi that the 26th edition is to be prefered, as being the more current one. I'm not convinced by the reasons stated in favor of the 25th edition. I don't even understand them. Why do you assume that Ethnologue in its next edition will go back to a number close to the previous figure?
 * And as a piece of advice in another matter: Have a good look at how Vandalism is defined on Wikipedia, and then speedily retract your reporting of such against Pathawi. This will not get anywhere, but if you proceed with it, it will damage your reputation on Wikipedia. And you should really do a better job of assuming good faith. In this situation you didn't. LandLing 16:57, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, this happened at the same time that Cookiemonster1618 was involved in an ANI issue that resulted in their receiving a three-month topic ban that prevents their further engagement on this page. They are unable to respond to your question here right now. It's a little odd to have a provisional outcome that's the result of attrition rather than consensus. If this still feels important to them in three months, we can resume the conversation—hopefully a little more congenially!—then. Pathawi (talk) 17:34, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ooops, I just stumbled across that ANI page. Had I seen that before, I would have left out the final comment, as it clearly comes too late. LandLing 17:50, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Ethio-Semitic/Ethiopian Semitic/Eritrean Semitic
I'm writing this because this has happened a few times with this & related articles: I understand that for Eritrean people—particularly Eritrean Tigrinya-speakers—it can feel offensive that the family that Tigrinya is part of is referred to as 'Ethio-Semitic'. I think that this term is a problem, & I avoid it in my own professional writing. However, the term is widely used in linguistics, & it's what we'll see in the sources that inform this article. Everything on Wikipedia must come from reliable sources. One can't just change the term to 'Eritrean-Semitic' because one doesn't like 'Ethio-Semitic'. As a second consideration, the point that is regularly edited is a link to the Ethiopian Semitic languages article. Changing the text breaks the link. If you'd like to see the term changed, the Talk page for that article is the place to start—not individual occurrences in articles like this. The discussion will require reference to sources that are considered reliable by Wikipedia standards. If you don't know what that means, it would behoove you to familiarise yourself first. WP:RS is a good starting point. Pathawi (talk) 21:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

 * I heartily second this comment. LandLing 06:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The lede uses 'Ethiopian Semitic', and that is also the title of the linked target article. For people unfamiliar with the established terminology in Semitic studies, this just looks like a blatant mistake (or at least like a pre-partition anachronism), as it naturally can be interpreted as referring to Semitic languages spoken in Ethiopia. What do you think about changing it here to 'Ethio-Semitic' (and maybe also moving the title of the subgroup article)? 'Ethio-Semitic' is not really much "better" (in the sense of less being perceived as offensive). But at least it looks like a specialized term that will not automatically be interpreted as a "mistake", even if it still may stir offense for Eritreans because of the obvious connection of the prefix to the name of Ethiopia.
 * From a cursory look into various handbooks about Semitic languages (e.g. Weininger 2011, Huehnergard & Pat-El 2019) and the languages of Africa (Güldemann 2018, Vossen & Dimmendaal 2020), I get the impression that 'Ethio-Semitic' actually better fulfils the criteria of WP:COMMONNAME than 'Ethiopian Semitic'. –Austronesier (talk) 13:48, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I have the impression that you're right: 'Ethio-Semitic' better fits WP:COMMONNAME. Do you want to start a conversation over at Talk:Ethiopian Semitic languages? I suppose one could also move it boldly… I can't guess whether or not this would be controversial. Pathawi (talk) 13:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I've done a bold move (surpisingly without technical obstacles). I case it gets reverted, we can initiate a move discussion. I've got lots of sources in my baggage already for that purpose. –Austronesier (talk) 14:40, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Great! Pathawi (talk) 16:39, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tigrinya language


text:
La Reprise (novel)

La Reprise is a French novel in the Nouveau roman style by Alain Robbe-Grillet published in France in October 2001 by Les Éditions de Minuit. It was the first novel published by Robbe-Grillet in 20 years. An English version, translated by American poet and translator Richard Howard, was published as Repetition (sometimes subtitled A Novel) in 2003. It was also published as an audiobook.

The plot follows a French secret service, Henri Robin, sent on a special mission to Berlin in 1949. It has been compared to Graham Greene's novel The Third Man, or an Alfred Hitchcock film. He sees his own doppelganger, and the novel becomes more and more mysterious and dreamlike. The story is commented on by unknown narrator, who points out inconsistencies in Robin's own story, and eventually (according to reviewer Heller McAlpin) emerges as "a Sophoclean oedipal revenge drama, complete with incest, blindness..., parricide and fratricide.

It is a comic spy thriller. Robbe-Grillet once wrote: "All my novels are comic. Perhaps La Reprise more so".

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: La Reprise (novel)


text:
Schaghticoke people

The Schaghticoke ( or  ) are a Native American tribe of the Eastern Woodlands who historically consisted of Mahican, Potatuck, Weantinock, Tunxis, Podunk, and their descendants, peoples indigenous to what is now New York, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. The remnant tribes amalgamated in the area near the Connecticut-New York border after many losses, including the sale of some Schaghticoke and members of neighboring tribes into slavery in the Caribbean in the 1600s.

Their reservation, granted in 1736 by the General Assembly of the Colony of Connecticut, is one of the oldest in the United States. In 1740, shortly after the reservation was granted, approximately 500 Schaghticoke lived on it. After sales by state agents, the Schaghticoke hold less than a fifth of the original reserve with a 400 acre reservation. It is located near the New York border within the boundaries of Kent in Litchfield County, to the west of the Housatonic River. The land is held in trust by the state for the tribe.

In 1986, the tribe split. One group maintained the name Schaghticoke Indian Tribe (SIT), and the other identifies as the Schaghticoke Tribal Nation (STN). The Schaghticoke people have a long history of political relationships with both the former colony of Connecticut and the state. Most of the members live off the reservation in and near Kent. In 2004, the STN was the fourth tribe in Connecticut to gain federal recognition. But in 2005, after strong opposition from the state and several local governments as well as one landowner, several Schaghticoke individuals and the SIT, U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) reversed its decision, revoking recognition. The Schaghticoke were among three state-recognized Connecticut tribes (along with the Eastern Pequot Tribal Nation and the Golden Hill Paugussett Indian Nation) who were denied under the Bush administration, which had concerns about casinos being opened by tribes.

The Schaghticoke filed a land claims action, seeking restoration of a total of 2100 acre. Most of the land in question is undeveloped. It is owned by the Kent School, Connecticut Light & Power, a few private landowners, and the federal government. Following the Bureau of Indian Affairs' re-determined negative decision and resultant reversal of the STN's federal acknowledgment, the U.S. District Court dismissed the land claim case in 2010. "In ruling on the cross-motions for summary judgment, the court concluded that the BIA's final determination was 'reasonable based on the evidence before it,' and that the STN failed to satisfy the criteria of 'community' and 'political influence or authority' due to the fact that a substantial portion of the Schaghticoke refused to be enrolled as members of the STN." The tribe appealed the court's decision to the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in late February 2010, where the lower court's decision was affirmed. STN took its case to the Supreme Court of the United States, which in October 2010 denied to review the appellate decision.

Etymology
Schaghticoke has various spellings: Pachgatgoch, Patchgatgoch, Pisgachtigok, Pishgachtigok, Scachtacook, Scaghkooke, Scanticook, Scatacook, Scaticook, Schaacticook, Scotticook, Seachcook, derived from an Algonquian Dialect-R word Pishgachtigok, meaning "the confluence of two waterways or "Gathered Waters." This may refer to the confluence of the Ten Mile River and the Housatonic River, where Mauwehu, the son of Chief Squantz, removed most of the Schaghticoke people. The language/culture base is Algonquian.

Government
The Schaghticoke Tribal Nation has an elected tribal council representing STN citizens and a chief-for-life, Richard L. Velky, who was elected in 1987. The Schaghticoke Indian Tribe also has a tribal council and a chief, Alan Russell. STN and SIT have separate tribal constitutions. There is a cross section of Bradleys, Coggswells, Harrises and Kilsons in each of these three groups (STN, SIT and the unaffiliated) There also is a small group of people of doubtful heritage who claim to be Schaghticoke and claim to govern themselves with the SIT constitution. The Schaghticoke Indian Tribe located in Kent, Connecticut has 110 members.

Land issues
In 1724, colonial settlers from Fairfield, Connecticut, received approval from the General Assembly of the Colony of Connecticut to establish a new township. According to one account, they negotiated with Chief Squantz. Alternatively, it is told that they did not negotiate with Chief Squantz because he moved to the north end of Squantz Pond land area and refused to "sell" the township of New Fairfield. They returned in the Spring of 1725, but found that Chief Squantz had died during the Winter. His four sons and heirs refused to sign the deeds. It was not until four years later that the white men called "The Proprietors" finally got the drawn marks of several other native people who may not have had authority to sell the land. They "purchased" a 31,000-acre tract of land that is now called New Fairfield and Sherman, for the equivalent of about 300 dollars and on April 24, 1729, the deed was recorded on May 9, 1729, and is now deposited in the archives of the State Capitol in Hartford.

Granted a reserve in 1736 by the General Assembly of the Colony of Connecticut, the Schaghticoke tribe have one of the oldest reservations in the United States. But, today their original 2500 acre, once located on both sides of the Housatonic River, has been diminished to a 400-acre (1.6 km2) reservation on the west side of the river. It includes a wilderness habitat for rattlesnakes, ruffed grouse, and other animals. At one time, the Schaghticoke tribe owned land from the Massachusetts border to the Ten Mile River.

European-American agents, appointed by the state, sold off more than 2,000 acres of tribal land between 1801 and 1911 without approval by the federal government. Tribal leaders say that the land sales and takings violated the Indian Non-Intercourse Act. This is the collective name of six statutes passed from 1790 to 1834, which said that only the federal government had the right to deal directly with Indian nations and had to approve all land sales for them.

The Schaghticoke Tribal Nation (STN) has filed suits for restoration of about 2100 acres. Much of the land in question is in Kent, on the eastern side of the Housatonic River from the current reservation. About half the campus of the private Kent School is on the disputed land. Another major portion is owned by the Preston Mountain Club, a private fishing club.

The Schaghticoke filed land rights suits in 1985, 1998 and 2000, the last two under the name and leadership of the STN. By 2010, the cases were consolidated; the defendants were the federal government, the Connecticut Light & Power Company, and the Kent School. In 1993, the federal government had proposed a land swap to Connecticut, offering 25 acres of federal land in exchange for 49.7 acres of the reservation, as part of a major restoration of the Appalachian Trail and securing control of it. The STN objected to the state's making the exchange for a lesser amount of land, threatening to close access to the Trail through the reservation.

In October 2010 a federal court granted the defendants' request to dismiss the case, based on the argument of collateral estoppel. The judge held that, as the BIA had determined in 2005 that STN did not meet the criteria for federal recognition as a tribe, it could not establish a prima facie case for land rights. As it was not a tribe, the state could not have violated the Non-Intercourse Act with the land deals. Because another federal court had upheld the BIA's reversal of the STN's federal acknowledgment (see below), the defendants had argued that the STN could not proceed with its land case.

The Schaghticoke Tribal Nation appealed in federal court, arguing that a tribe does not have to be federally acknowledged to bring land claim lawsuits under the 1790 Non-Intercourse Act. At the end of November 2012, the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals set February 25, 2013, as the deadline for the parties to submit their briefs in the land claims case.

In 2016 the Shaghticoke Tribal Nation filed suit in a Connecticut Superior Court against the state of Connecticut regarding tribal land that had been sold by the state beginning in 1801. In 2022, the Connecticut Appellate Court upheld the lower court's dismissal of the lawsuit, citing sovereign immunity and the language of a 1752 resolution of the Connecticut General Assembly that granted right of land use to the tribe for land along the Housatonic River, but did not explicitly grant property rights to the tribe and allowed for the land use only "during the pleasure of this Assembly".

Housatonic River pollution
The Schaghticoke reservation is located along the Housatonic River, which is polluted with PCBs manufactured by Monsanto and put into the river by General Electric from their electrical transformer factory in Pittsfield, Massachusetts. This limits the use of the river and presents health risks to those who live along river, and they can not eat the fish from the river.

Quest for federal recognition
In 1981 the Schaghticoke Indian Tribe (SIT) filed a petition for federal recognition. The tribal genealogist had documented that four family lineages form the basis of most of today's tribal members. These are the Cogswells, Kilsons, Harrises and Bradleys. During the nascent stages of the Schaghticoke Tribal Nation's petition process, several individual leaders, both elected and from within the community, disputed the STN leadership. The result was a political dispute that has not been resolved.

Richard Velky is the chief of the Schaghticoke Tribal Nation who has been told by the BIA that they can not reform, regroup or reorganize and that the Schaghticoke Indian Tribe is the Historic continuation of the tribe; Alan Russell is the Tribal Chief of the S.I.T. and has been its leader since 1983. Neither represents all of the Schaghticoke people, including many who refuse to enroll with either political faction.

In December 2002, the BIA made a preliminary finding that the STN failed to satisfy two of seven criteria for recognition: proof of cohesive community and maintenance of a continuous political leadership. After the tribe provided more documentation in consultation with the agency, in January 2004 the Department of the Interior acknowledged the Schaghticoke Tribal Nation as an Indian tribe according to the federal law and practice. STN was the fourth Connecticut tribes to gain federal recognition after the Mashantucket Pequot Tribal Nation, the Mohegan Tribe and the Eastern Pequot Tribal Nation.

The Connecticut governor and other parties immediately opposed the Bureau of Indian Affairs decision, claiming adverse effects in communities due to the effects of gambling casinos. They feared the tribe would use recognition to press its land claims and to develop a casino. The Eastern Pequot Tribal Nation had received federal recognition in 2002, which the state was also opposing. The Mohegan Indian Tribe and Mashantucket Pequot had already developed increasingly successful, large casino resorts. In 2005, Representative Nancy Johnson introduced the "Schaghticoke Acknowledgement Repeal Act of 2005". Five requests were made to the Interior Board of Indian Appeals (IBIA) to review the BIA Final Determination to Acknowledge the STN, which had been approved on January 24, 2004. The five requesters were (1) the "Coggswell Group," a group of individuals described as "descendants of the historical tribe known today as the Schaghticoke Tribal Nation;" (2) the Town of Cornwall, Connecticut; (3) the State of Connecticut together with the Towns of Kent, Bethel, New Fairfield, Newtown, Ridgefield, Greenwich, Sherman, Westport, Wilton, and Weston as well as the Cities of Danbury and Stamford; the Kent School Corporation; the Connecticut Light and Power Company; and the Housatonic Valley Council of Elected Officials, (4) the Preston Mountain Club, Inc., a landowner; and (5) the Schaghticoke Indian Tribe, a group which has separately petitioned for Federal acknowledgment.

On May 12, 2005, the IBIA vacated the STN final determination and remanded it to the BIA for reconsideration. On October 11, 2005, the Office of Federal Acknowledgment (OFA) issued a Reconsidered Final Determination Denying Federal Acknowledgment of the STN. That same year, the IBIA also remanded the Eastern Pequot Tribal Nation's (EPTN) positive final determination of federal acknowledgment to the OFA. The result was the same, the Schaghticoke experience – OFA issued a determination denying the federal acknowledgment of EPTN.

STN appealed the BIA ruling, but in August 2009, federal Judge Peter Dorsey upheld it. The STN sued for relief in Federal court, but the suit was dismissed in August 2008. This ruling was appealed in the 2nd Circuit Court in New York and was denied on October 19, 2009. The STN had hoped to build a third gaming facility in Connecticut if they were federally acknowledged.

In 2015, the Bureau of Indian Affairs issued new rules saying that tribes which have previously been denied federal recognition cannot re-petition.

In March 2022, the Schaghticoke Indian Tribe applied for federal recognition.

Other legal issues
On January 29, 2009, STN members and supporters rallied at the Connecticut state capital. They presented a petition to Governor Jodi Rell, calling for an end to land encroachment on the reservation, and destruction of sites there. They wanted to raise awareness of the tribe's continued push to achieve federal recognition.

Chief Richard L. Velky, tribal chair of STN since 1987, has said, "I can tell you this. They will never finish us off, and they will never take our land."

In 2011, the two tribal groups briefly united in trying to get Michael Rost, a non-Schaghticoke, expelled from reservation land. Members of both STN and SIT have said that Rost, claiming to have the right to be there as a guest of a tribal member, took and sold lumber illegally, built roads without a permit, and destroyed sensitive archeological sites. They took him to court to get him evicted.

A Connecticut Superior Court evicted Rost that year. State Judge Corinne L. Klatt ruled that the Schaghticoke Tribal Nation and its leader Richard Velky were the legitimate representatives of the people: "Based on the evidence submitted by both parties, the court finds that the Schaghticoke Tribal Nation, through its Tribal Council, is the governing authority for the Schaghticoke Tribe.This ruling was reversed by Judge Klatt and the S.I.T. and Alan Russell were recognized as the authority on the reservation in Kent.Ct" Rost appealed the eviction order and on September 18, 2012, the appellate decision upheld Judge Klatt's eviction while correcting her determination that STN held tribal authority. Specifically, the appellate court held that, "The court nevertheless agreed to open its earlier decision for the limited purpose of vacating its finding that STN, through its tribal council, was the governing authority for the Schaghticoke Indians. The court clarified as follows: ‘‘It’s the Schaghticoke Indians that have the right to say who lives on the reservation. And they clearly have spoken here. Because both plaintiffs are in agreement that they do not want [the defendant] on the location.’’ The court later stated: ‘‘I am reopening my decision and clarifying my decision, that even if [Richard] Velky, in my analysis of the law, even if Velky is not the accepted and recognized tribal leader, nevertheless the plaintiffs—the plaintiffs being the Schaghticoke Indian—that—Indians, not the Schaghticoke Indian Tribe, not the Schaghticoke Tribal Nation, but the Indians that were originally recognized by this state, are the individuals that have brought this summary process action and have moved to evict [the defendant]. So, that’s the clarification of the court’s decision. Accordingly, the court modified that portion of its earlier decision finding that STN was the governing authority for the Schaghticoke Indians."

Legacy

 * The town of Schaghticoke, New York, is named for the tribe.
 * The village of Schaghticoke, located in the above town, is named for the tribe.
 * Schaghticoke Middle School in New Milford, Connecticut, is named for the tribe.
 * Squantz Pond in New Fairfield, Connecticut, is named for Chief Squantz, a leader of the Schaghticoke people until his death in the winter of 1724–1725.
 * Lake Waramaug in Warren and Washington, Connecticut, is named for Chief Waramaug, a leader of the Potatuck people from 1725 to 1735.
 * The tribe influenced the name of Camp Scatico in Elizaville, New York.

Notable members

 * Truman Bradley (Native American)
 * Trudie Lamb-Richmond

title: Schaghticoke people


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yahootrolls.com

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. Golbez 03:11, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

Yahoo Trolls and Yahootrolls.com
Non-encyclopedic list of alleged trolls and non-notable Web forum with 40 Google hits - pages appear to be linked. FCYTravis 08:49, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Nonencyclopedic, moreover I would call this an attack page. Sjakkalle (Check!)  08:56, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete the page attacks trolls who are hardly notable. I hate trolls, but it is an attack page nontheless. Mgm|(talk) 08:58, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Unencyclopedic, and about as non-notable as humanly possible. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 09:19, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Roll eyes. Makes a 'washing off' motion with hands. -- BD2412 talk 15:43, 2005 Jun 13 (UTC)
 * Delete''' attack page. JamesBurns 06:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, --//-- Pavel Vozenilek 17:18, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, There's much more esoteric crap to delete on wikpedia, these articles are devoted to a lively internet culture of vulgar character assassinations thinly veiled as political discourse...don't be so easily offended
 * Keep, There is nothing wrong with this page to merit deletion.
 * User:Sh1tleopard's only edit.

 * Keep, we are a part of the on-line culture, and have been in the media.
 * 80.41.89.95's first edit.

 * Delete unencyclopedic, sockpuppeted. CDC   (talk)  23:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete troll vanity garbage. -- Cyrius|✎ 03:29, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, Yahoo trolls got in OC weekly! froggman5555
 * Keep You can't slander a Yahoo profile. If you think that your profile is a reflection of your real self..seek help immediately. It's only an internet messageboard folks! aphex_troll
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


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Talk:Proto-Celtic language

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): ECardwell.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 07:22, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Phonation system
Eska (2018), Celtic-Germanic Lexis in Light of Laryngeal Realism, Proceedings of the 29th annual UCLA Indo-European conference proposes that Proto-Celtic contrasted aspiration rather than voice, primarily on the grounds of (1) this found in the modern Celtic languages and (2) "pre-Grimm's Law" loanwords from Celtic to Germanic show PC *ɸ *t *k *d *g → PG *f *θ *x *t *k, in his view better seen as PC *pʰ/ɸ *tʰ *kʰ *t *k → pre-PG *pʰ *tʰ *kʰ *t *k. Perhaps worth mentioning as a minority view? -- Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 17:13, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

 * The contrast in aspiration in Welsh, for instance, is only in certain environments, e.g. after /s/ /ɡ/ is [k] and /k/ is [kʰ] though  is rare. Even in these circumstances the understood phoneme is /ɡ/ and not /k/, i.e. Welsh contrasts voicing, not aspiration, contrast in aspiration is allophonic. – Dyolf87 (talk) 14:59, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Ablative
In Proto-Indo-European language, only thematic nominals had a special ending for ablative in singular. Did Proto-Celtic language develop separate ablative endings for all athematic nominals (in all numbers)?--Ed1974LT (talk) 18:25, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

I desire clarification
Recently the word desirative, purportedly a PIE verb form, was changed anonymously to desiderative. This was reverted by as "not constructive".

The word desirative in this sense has a handful of Web attestations, but far more redirections to desiderative. —Tamfang (talk) 00:08, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

 * I agree the correct term is desiderative. —Mahāgaja · talk 13:30, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Noun type reflexes
Would it not be more beneficial to show Irish and Welsh (as a minimum) reflexes of the nouns in the noun-stem charts? At least an idea can be gleaned, at a glance, of their developments. – Dyolf87 (talk) 10:35, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Proto-Celtic language


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Blame Jamie

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. Golbez 03:12, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

Blame Jamie
Was tagged as speedy but isn't eligeble. No vote from me. - Mgm|(talk) 08:56, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - Looks like a nice band but no albums means WP:MUSIC not met. --FCYTravis 09:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete: Investigate all those links, too, as it seems like a fan has peppered us with local bands. Good for them for working and gigging, but not notable enough for an encyclopedia at this point. Geogre 15:00, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete band vanity. --Etacar11 23:30, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete band vanity. JamesBurns 06:46, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


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User talk:SWFan

Please no longer post copy-violating articles.

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Janaki

Janaki may refer to:

People

 * Janaki Amma (1920–2005), Indian judge of the Kerala High Court
 * Janaki Ammal (1897–1984), Indian botanist
 * Janaki Ballabh (1928–2022), Indian sinologist and translator
 * Janaki Ballabh Patnaik (1927–2015), Indian politician
 * Janaki Devi Bajaj (1893–1979), Indian independence activist
 * Janaki Devi Ram (born 1955), Nepalese politician
 * Janaki Sabesh (born 1964), Indian media professional
 * Janaki Sharan Sah (born 1963), Nepalese politician
 * Janaki Venkataraman (1921–2010), First Lady of India 1987–1992
 * Janaki Vishwanathan (fl. from 2001), Indian film maker
 * K. P. Janaki Ammal (1917-1992), Indian politician
 * S. Janaki (born 1938), Indian playback singer
 * Sowcar Janaki (born 1931), Indian actress
 * V. N. Janaki (1923–1996), Indian politician, actress and activist
 * Vaidehi (Kannada writer) (Janaki Srinivasa Murthy, born 1945)
 * Janakiammal (1899–1994), wife of Srinivasa Ramanujan

Places

 * Junaki, or Janaki, Fars, Iran
 * Janaki Rural Municipality (disambiguation), places in Nepal

Other uses

 * Sita, also known as Janaki, a Hindu goddess of the Ramayana
 * Janaki Intercity Express, a train between Manihari and Jaynagar in India
 * Janaki Mandir, a Hindu temple in Janakpurdham, Nepal
 * Janaki Medical College, Dhanusha District, Nepal
 * Janaki String Trio, an American music group

title: Janaki


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Greater Western

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP. Golbez 22:01, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Greater Western
Was tagged as speedy "not a crystal ball" which isn't speedy criterion. No vote from me. - Mgm|(talk) 09:02, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, important, verifiable. Kappa 10:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep and expand. --Scimitar 14:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep and expand. The other Train Operating Companies have pages e.g. WAGN, Virgin Trains and this new one has a place in Wikipedia just the same as those do. What little is in the article is factual, verifiable and definitely has no crystal ball element to it. Needs work, but so do many articles.-Splash 16:04, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Clearcut keep. CalJW 21:37, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Crystal clear keep. —RaD Man (talk) 09:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


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Talk:Shahid Beheshti University

this is not sbu picture ... thats islamic confernce center in tehran just 1000 m east of shahid beheshti univ ..... !

 * It's the best (closest) we've got.

 * Not to worry though. I'll takre a few pics there when I visit the campus in a few weeks.--Zereshk 06:24, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Where is Shahid Behesti Located?
To my knowledge,the University campus(inluding the Medical School)is located in Velenjak,not Evin.My cousin and her daughter(who is studying pharmacy at the school)visited us and said it is located in Velenjak,where they live. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.118.48.56 (talk) 20:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

A note about the second paragraph ( renaming the university)
I think adding so much detail about what happened to Ayatollah Beheshti is not related to Shahid Besheshti University and a link to his page will do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.218.83.61 (talk) 06:50, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Shahid Beheshti University


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Talk:Irish presidential inauguration

Untitled
While I realise that this is a new article, obviously compiled by someone not full bottle with their material, there were some fairly basic spelling and logic errors - see the history for my corrections, though they is probably a fair bit of work to do yet. And the syntax is often convoluted.

I made several corrections. The "President of the United Kingdom" is a non-existent office, for example, and I changed that to "President of the United States". I particularly enjoyed the notion of the President's term expiring on the day before the inauguration of her predecessor - seven years before she took office!

And, as written, the Presidential Commission were always called upon to do important actions during the interregnum period. Without knowing the material, I'm taking a punt that this was not the case!

Please, can we have a little more care and research put into new articles? Pete 09:03, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

John, you've fixed the most obvious error. The next step (in a long trail) is to fix your nonsensical statement "The Irish Constitution makes it clear that a president's term of office expires on the day after the inauguration of their precedessor."

That's still a term of minus seven years! I've corrected this again. I suggest you take a sober look at it before yet another mindless revert. Pete 22:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Merge
I merged the page Inauguration of the President of Ireland into this page, as they were on identical topics, often with identical text. -- Ibagli ( Talk ) 00:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Patrickhall.JPG
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Image copyright problem with Image:Irishpres.jpg
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title: Talk:Irish presidential inauguration


text:
Islamic holidays

There are two main holidays in Islam that are celebrated by Muslims worldwide: Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha. The timing of both holidays are set by the lunar Islamic calendar, which is based upon the cycle of the moon, and so is different from the more common, European, solar-based Gregorian calendar. Every year, the Gregorian dates of the Islamic holidays change.

Both Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha follow a period of 10 holy days or nights: the last 10 nights of Ramadan for Eid al-Fitr, and the first 10 days of Dhu al-Hijjah for Eid al-Adha. The Night of Power (Arabic: لیلة القدر, romanized : Laylat al-Qadr), one of the last 10 nights of Ramadan, is the holiest night of the year. Conversely, the Day of Arafah, the day before Eid al-Adha, is the holiest day of the Islamic year.

There are a number of other days of note as well as festivals, some common to all Muslims, others specific to Shia Islam or branches thereof.

Additionally, Friday is considered the holiest day of the week, and in Islamic tradition, is considered a celebration in itself. Friday Prayers (Juma) are congregational prayers held in mosques, and Muslims are encouraged to wear clean and refined clothes, perfume, and bathe. It is customary to eat special meals with family on this day.

Holidays
Eid al-Fitr is celebrated at the end of Ramadan (a month of fasting during daylight hours), and Muslims may perform acts of zakat (charity) on the occasion, which begins after the new moon is sighted for the beginning of the month of Shawwal. Celebration begins with prayers on the morning of 1 Shawwal, followed by breakfast, and often celebratory meals throughout the day.

Eid al-Adha is celebrated on the tenth day of Dhu al-Hijjah, when the Hajj pilgrimage takes place which lasts for four days. Muslims may perform an act of zakat and friendship by slaughtering a sheep or cow and distributing the meat to family, friends, and the poor. Muslims are also encouraged to be especially friendly and reach out to one another during this period.

Fasting

Muslims celebrate when they believe the Quran was first revealed to Muhammed by fasting from dawn to sunset during Ramadan, the ninth month of the Islamic calendar. Fasting is considered a purifying experience so that Muslims can gain compassion and deepen their faith in God. Those with certain health conditions such as diabetes, and children are exempt from fasting. Travelers, and women who are menstruating or nursing a baby, are exempt from fasting but are required to fast later.

Dates of holidays and other days of note
The Islamic calendar is based on the synodic period of the Moon's revolution around the Earth, approximately 291⁄2 days. The Islamic calendar alternates months of 29 and 30 days (which begin with the new moon). Twelve of these months make up an Islamic year, which is 11 days shorter than the Gregorian year. Some Gregorian dates may vary slightly from those given, and may also vary by country. See Islamic calendar.

title: Islamic holidays


text:
One-design racing

One-design racing is a racing method which may be adopted in sports using complex equipment, whereby all vehicles have identical or very similar designs or models, avoiding the need for a handicap system.

Motorsport
One-make racing series (also known as spec racing series ) are racing series in which all competitors race with identical or very similar vehicles from the same manufacturer and suppliers. Typically, this means the same type of chassis, powertrain, tyres, brakes, and fuel are used by all drivers.

The idea behind one-make car racing is that success will be based more on driver skill and car setup, instead of engineering skill and budget. One-make series are popular at an amateur level as they are affordable, due to the use of a common engine and chassis.

Examples of one-make racing series from around the world included the Dodge Viper Challenge, Ferrari Challenge, Porsche Carrera Cup and Supercup, Radical European Masters, Power Maxed (formerly John Cooper Works) Mini Challenge and Commodore Cup. There are also various formula categories that use one-make racing, such as Formula 2 (which since 2011 exclusively uses a car design by Dallara), Formula Renault, Formula Mazda, Formula Car Challenge, and the W Series.

The Formula One race series are not one-design nor one-make racing series as they allow participation by different manufacturers, each designing their own chassis and powertrain (within limits set by 'the formula'). Some spec parts are mandated, such as tyres and sensors. NASCAR is much in the same boat, with three distinct bodies (Chevrolet, Ford and Toyota) and four distinct engines (Hendrick, ECR, Roush Yates, TRD) available in competition.

Additionally, while IndyCar cars are all virtually identical Dallara DW12 models, the two distinct engine designs available from Chevrolet and Honda prevent IndyCar from being a “true” spec series.

The same applies to the Super Formula series. All teams compete in nearly identical Dallara SF23 models, but use engines supplied from Honda and Toyota, preventing it from being a true spec series.

Sailing
There are two primary methods of competition in sailboat racing: One-design and handicap racing (e.g. Portsmouth Yardstick, Performance Handicap Racing Fleet and Leading Yard Stick). One design refers to a racing class that consists of just one model or design of a sailboat. In one-design racing, the first boat to finish wins the race. This is contrasted with handicap racing, where time is added or subtracted from the finishing times based on design factors and mathematical formulas to determine the winner.

In between One-design and handicap racing, a number of other approaches exist. One-design classes can be contrasted with a development class, the classic example being America's Cup 12-metre class, or to the box rule used, for example, in the TP 52 class.

A further category, the formula based class setup, is sometimes confused with one design. The Mini Transat 6.50, the Volvo Open 70 monohull, the large ORMA trimaran, and the Formula 18 racing beach catamaran are the exponents of the formula approach. Class-legal boats race each other without any handicap calculations in both setups. However, under one design the boats are virtually identical except in details. At the same time, the formula setup allows the boats to differ much more in design while keeping a few important specifications the same. As a result, the identifier "One design" has been used more and more exclusively to denote a class that races only identical boats.

Having a rigid one-design specification keeps design experimentation to a minimum and reduces cost of ownership. The popularity of one-design increased in the 1970s with the introduction of laminate construction using fibre-reinforced plastic (FRP) and mold building technology. This process allowed the mass production of identical hulls of virtually any size at a lower price.

The one-design design idea was created by Thomas Middleton of the Shankill Corinthian Club located 10 mi south of Dublin, Ireland in 1887. He proposed a class of double ended open dinghies of simple clincher construction in pine with a lifting boiler plate capable of being lifted. The boat was called The Water Wag. The idea was quickly adopted by sailors in Ireland, England, India and South America. The Water Wag Club still thrives in Dun Laoghaire, Co. Dublin.

The Solent One Design Class was one of the earliest one-design classes formed after discussions took place in 1893 and subsequent years. It quickly became popular, and was patronised by some of the most energetic and best known yacht owners in the Solent, Portsmouth and Southampton waters including Sir Philip Hunloke, the King's yachtmaster. Formed under the auspices of the Solent Sailing Club, the class was adopted by the Royal Yacht Squadron and the Island Sailing Club in 1895. The dimensions of the boats were length overall, 33 ft 3 in; Waterline length, 25 ft; Beam, 7 ft 9 in; Draft, 5 ft; Sail area, 750 sq ft.; Displacement, 5 tons with 2 tons 13 cwt. of lead in the keel. Cutter rig with 6 ft bowsprit. Designed by H. W. White, ten were built in 1895/6 by Messrs. White Brothers of Itchen Ferry, Southampton and another twelve were built in the following year. The class enjoyed ten years of keen racing but the Metre Rule, which was introduced in 1907 effectively killed the class. The only boat still afloat is Rosenn, formally Eilun, sail number 6. Now, fully restored, she has been identified as meriting inclusion in the National Register of Historic Vessels of the United Kingdom. She is kept in Lymington where she is still racing and winning on the Solent.

Conversely the Howth 17, designed just four years later by Sir Walter H. Boyd of Howth, Co. Dublin is still actively raced and is the oldest one-design racing keelboat still sailing as designed. While fifteen of the current fleet were built from 1898 to 1914, new boats can still be added, most recently in 2017.

As a general rule, the tolerances are strictest in smaller boats like dinghy classes and small keelboats. In some cases the tolerances are specified in a confidential Building Specification and often everything is designed and produced at the same factory or a very few factories. Examples are the Laser, Melges 24, and several small keelboats designed by Nathanael Greene Herreshoff, such as the 12½. In others the specification is published but the boats may only be produced by licensed manufacturers with usually only one builder in any country or region. Examples are the Olympic Finn and 470 but in both these classes a single manufacturer has succeeded in building faster boats than all other manufacturers.

However, in the Optimist dinghy, one of the world's largest classes, a tighter specification introduced in 1995 /with ongoing scrutiny has resulted in boats from the 20+ approved builders on four continents being of identical speed, for example at the 2017 World Championship.

In medium- to large-sized boat classes, One design would refer to conformance to a standard specification, with the possibility of alterations being allowed as long as they remained within certain tolerances. Examples of this are the Dragon, J/24, Etchells, H-boat and the Farr 40. After the hull length overall (LOA) exceeds 27 ft, people generally refer to the boat as an offshore one-design boat or yacht.

In other classes, the one-design class may have organized around an existing fleet of similar boats that traditionally existed together often for commercial purposes such as sailing canoes, dhows, and skipjacks, or boats that developed a common hull form over the years (such as A-Scows).

In contrast to 'one-design', other sailboats race under a variety of handicapping rules and formulas developed to allow different type boats to compete against one another. Formula rules include the Square Metre Rule, the Ton class, the Universal Rule, and the Metre Rule. Handicap rules include Portsmouth Yardstick, PHRF, IOR, IMS, IRC, Americap and LYS.

Soaring
There have been several attempts to bring the advantages of one-design to the sport of competitive glider racing. The most successful of these has been the Schweizer 1–26 class with 700 aircraft completed and flown between 1954 and 1981.

Schweizer Aircraft principal Paul A Schweizer was a proponent of the One-design concept. He intended the company's 1–26 to be the aircraft to establish a one-design class in the United States. He wrote:

"'The true measure of pilot ability and experience is usually shown by his final standing in a contest. What could be more indicative of this when pilots are flying identical sailplanes with identical performance. One-design competition is the sure test of soaring skill.'"

Other one-design gliders have included those made in Russia by Aviastroitel, in Poland by Warsztaty Szybowcowe Orlik, and Germany, where for example the DFS Olympia Meise was planned for the 1940 Olympic championships.

title: One-design racing


text:
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/211.28.*.*

In order to remain listed at Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: {insert UTC timestamp with }), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is:, 29 July 2024 (UTC).

 * (Example user | talk | contributions)

Statement of the dispute

 * We, the undersigned, are seeking the opinion of the community in the case of an anonymous user who uses the IP range 211.28.*.* and has been named Time Cube Guy. His contributions consist exclusively of advocacy for a philosophy which does not seem to have any followers but himself. He has spent two years introducing his ideas into Gene Ray, Time cube, Greenwich Mean Time, Time, Cube, Cube (geometry), related talk pages, and other articles, and apparently none of his edits have ever survived the scrutiny of other Wikipedians. Furthermore, he has conducted revert wars over Gene Ray, Talk:Time_Cube/Proposed_trimmed_article and Time cube. Extensive discussion with Time Cube Guy has not resulted in any substantial progress towards more factual and neutral articles.

Description

 * Under NPOV and WP:WIN, Wikipedia grants no right to use Wikipedia as platform for the promotion of fringe philosophy. Specifically, it is consensus that Wikipedia articles are not: propaganda or advocacy of any kind, personal essays, primary research, self-promotion, or advertising.
 * Therefore, since all attempts at reasoning with Time Cube Guy have not resulted in any substantial progress, the page Time Cube has been locked, and an RfC has already been posted, we feel the only course of action is to unconditionally revert all of changes made by 211.28.*.* to Time Cube-related articles, that is, Time Cube Guy is effectively banned from editing these articles. If it becomes clear that Time Cube Guy has moved on to cause trouble at any other related pages, those changes will be unconditionally reverted as well.
 * We realize that the entire IP range cannot be banned, and do not condone reverting any other legitimate changes, especially in Australia-related articles.

Evidence of disputed behavior
(provide diffs and links)
 * History of the Time Cube article
 * History of the Proposed modified Time Cube article
 * History of Talk:Time Cube

Applicable policies
{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute
(provide diffs and links)
 * History of the Time Cube article makes the case undeniably clear.
 * History of the Proposed modified Time Cube article is very clear.
 * History of Talk:Time Cube from early June 8th and before is also clear.
 * Talk:Greenwich_Mean_Time I tried to engage this user in a discussion about his/her activities, also tagging his/her contributions (and adding the note at the top about unattributed edits). It is clear that this failed to stop the problem and I support the dispute. --Vamp:Willow 12:20, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Users certifying the basis for this dispute
(sign with ~ )
 * brian0918 ™  15:30, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Bryan 23:47, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Mgw 02:49, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * Kosebamse 13:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Pavel Vozenilek 23:26, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Vamp:Willow 12:15, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary
(sign with ~ )
 * —Sean κ. + 16:14, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Anilocra - (hi!) 16:18, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Cheradenine 14:04, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Dave C. 21:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd June 28, 2005 16:52 (UTC)
 * Salimfadhley 21:12, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Response
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~ ):

Outside view
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I think it's safe to say the POV-pushing is a serious problem. With this RFC we can establish that the community disapproves of 211.'s editing and asks him to stop. If he persists after that a quick arbitration is probably the easiest way to get a proper ban. Community decisions to ban can be done ofcourse but need to achieve clear consensus to do so, blanket-reverting by just the co-contributors without wide community support is a bad thing. Let's just state clearly here that 211.'s behaviour is inappropriate. --W(t) 00:38, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~ ):
 * 1) brian0918  ™  02:34, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Bryan 05:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Cheradenine 14:05, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Anilocra 17:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Mgw 02:53, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd June 28, 2005 16:52 (UTC)

Discussion
All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.


text:
Gray Line

Gray Line or Grey Line may refer to:

Transportation

 * Grey Line (Bangkok), a planned monorail line in Bangkok, Thailand
 * Grey Line (Delhi Metro), Delhi, India
 * Gray Coach, a former Canadian inter-city bus line based in Toronto
 * E Embarcadero, San Francisco, California
 * Jubilee line, London, England
 * Line 6 Finch West, Toronto, Canada
 * Line 9 (Shenzhen Metro), Shenzhen, China
 * Metro (Minnesota), lettered lines are color-coded "METRO Gray", Minneapolis—Saint Paul, Minnesota
 * Olympic Park railway line, Sydney, Australia
 * Pujiang line, Shanghai, China
 * Serpukhovsko-Timiryazevskaya line, known as the Grey Line, Moscow, Russia
 * Silver Line (Dallas Area Rapid Transit), a commuter rail line in Texas
 * Silver Line (Grand Rapids), Grand Rapids, Michigan
 * Lynx Silver Line, a proposed transit extension in Charlotte, North Carolina
 * Silver Line (MBTA), a system of bus lines in Boston, Massachusetts
 * METRORapid Silver Line, Houston, Texas
 * Silver Line (Mexico City), Mexico City
 * Silver Line (San Diego Trolley), a heritage streetcar line operated by the San Diego Trolley
 * Silver Line (Washington Metro), a rapid transit line of the Washington Metro system
 * HealthLine, Cleveland, Ohio
 * J Line (Los Angeles Metro), formerly the Silver Line, Los Angeles, California
 * Silver Line (Pittsburgh), a light rail line of the Pittsburgh Light Rail system

New York City Subway

 * BMT Canarsie Line
 * L (New York City Subway service)
 * S (New York City Subway service), three separate rapid transit subway shuttles

Other uses

 * Gray Line Worldwide, an international sightseeing operator
 * Grayline lascar
 * Terminator (solar) or grey line, delimiting the illuminated and dark sides of a planetary body

title: Gray Line


text:
Mount Pleasant, Brampton

Mount Pleasant is a neighbourhood of Brampton, Ontario, Canada, located in the northwestern portion of the city. Historically, the community was a rural hamlet surrounded by agricultural lands. Since opening the Mount Pleasant GO Station in 2006, the area has experienced rapid suburban growth. Along with the Mount Pleasant GO Station retail amenities have opened in the area. The public library has opened up both floors and the library building is a reconstructed historic CPR station structure used as a cultural facility in the Mount Pleasant Civic Square shared with the Peel District School Board and the library. The school connected to the library is Mount Pleasant Village Public School and offers grades K-8. As of the 2021 Community Profile, the neighbourhood has a population of 53,640 across 13,167 households.

Demographics
In a 2021 Community Profile for Brampton-Mount Pleasant conducted by Environics Analytics, Mount Pleasant had a population of 53,640 people in 13,167 households, an increase of 28.15% from its 2019 census of 41,857. Brampton attracts a significant number of immigrants, with over half of the city's population (52.86%) having been born outside of Canada. Mount Pleasant continues the trend, with immigrants making up 57.5% of the neighbourhood's population, and visible minorities make up 86.2% of the population, with 51.0% identifying as South Asian.

Out of the 13,167 dwellings in Mount Pleasant, 96.5% are single-family houses with the other 3.5% of housing being apartments.

The median age is 46, with 30-34 year old making up the most populous segment at 9.0% (4.828). Mount Pleasant's population is younger than the national average, with 35.93% of its population being in the 0-24 age range (19,273) compared to 27.54% nationally.

title: Mount Pleasant, Brampton


text: User talk:69.234.73.17

title: User talk:69.234.73.17


text:
User talk:Doops/NewForest

This page appears on the Hampshire category, yet it appears to be a User page. Pls justify. Kabads 09:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * This page was a sandbox, quite some time ago, for a merge of two articles into the present New Forest article. I didn't really understand catgories at the time, so I suppose that I didn't notice that, in assembling the page from the contents of its two predecessors, I was automatically listing it in the category. I've removed the cat link now. Doops 17:27, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Doops. Kabads 21:30, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Doops/NewForest


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Banyumasan famous peoples

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page, if it exists; or after the end of this archived section. The result of the debate was delete. Mackensen (talk) 16:08, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Banyumasan famous peoples
This was listed as a speedy deletion because non of these people have an article, which isn't a speedy criterion. Apart from the fact peoples is an incorrect plural this may be keepable if the country, state or region exists. Can anyone verify? - Mgm|(talk) 09:10, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Also with this topic being so obscure, I doubt we could expect it to develop as fast as the speedy tagger wants. Can we have a list of red-links? - Mgm|(talk) 09:20, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * commen I think someone's getting into a bit of a pickle; Banyumasan (a mess), history of Banyumasan (in non-English language), Banyumasan_language (accuracy disputed), and from the look of Banyumasan wants to create several more articles with even odder titles (Brebes salted eggs anyone?). (By the way, peoples is the correct plural of people, people is the incorrect plural of person, the proper plural of person is persons).  Randomly googling a few however does suggest that they are legitimate and mostly government ministers and the like. Dunc|☺ 09:49, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * As Duncharris says, peoples is a perfectly fine plural. It's the wrong choice of word for the title, however. This title is in fact completely wrong.  Look at Category:Lists of people by nationality for the correct pattern for the title to follow.  Also note that List of Indonesians already exists, and yet contains none of these redlinks. Uncle G 12:41, 2005 Jun 13 (UTC)
 * Delete notability of these people yet to be established. JamesBurns 06:47, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Judging by this and other pages it is abandoned at birth. Pavel Vozenilek 17:16, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep or TABLE - give it two weeks or so, then see. IMHO, This is a probable stubb by a non-english speaker. See Talk:Tsushima Islands for examples of names that are similar and broken english. Many coresponding contributing editors there know their english is sub-standard, and move slowly to make careful good efforts.  [[User:fabartus || TalktoMe]] 02:30, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * ''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be placed on a related article talk page, if one exists; in an undeletion request, if it does not; or below this section.