text:
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft/Archive 4

Old talk archived at:
 * Pre Mar 04 talk archived thematically
 * /General
 * /Strategy
 * /Table History
 * /Aircraft lists
 * /Data Table Standards
 * /Other Tables
 * /Footer
 * Airbox
 * Series

 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft Archive 1 (Mar 04-Aug 04)
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft Archive 2 (Aug 04)
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft Archive 3 (Mar 05)
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft (current talk)

Convair B-36 FAC
I've nominated Convair B-36 for FAC, vote at this page. →Iñgōlemo←  talk   06:11, 2005 Mar 23 (UTC)

The article has received its first (of ten votes) objection:

''Object.
 * 1) Operational history contains numerous original or unattributed judgements. The entire article continues to a lesser degree, as phrases such as "was considered" are used without specification of who considered this so.
 * 2) The article says the aircraft was "arguably obsolete", but no mention is made of who considered it obsolete (the editor?).
 * 3) The following sentence labels the aircraft as revolutionary and apologises for problems: "Also, the groundbreaking design had a number of problems, as is normal in revolutionary aircraft."
 * 4) "It is highly unlikely any will ever fly again"--according to who?
 * 5) Blatant original research and POV: "Its little-used nickname Peacemaker was apt, because its mere existence, whatever its flaws, probably played a significant role in preventing World War III."
 * 6) Again, original research and assertion of opinion as fact: "It was never tested in combat, however, and it is impossible to say how well it would have fared."
 * 7) Weasel statement reflecting POV: "it is possible that its rarely acknowledged reconnaissance missions were just as valuable."
 * 8) POV/unattributed: "could produce pictures of incredible clarity".''

Trouble is, many of these complaints are pretty valid, even though some border on nitpicky. Any suggestions on how best to deal with these? A featured aircraft article would be a good achievement for this WikiProject, so it would be great if we can refute the criticisms and get the user to withdraw their objection. →Iñgōlemo←  talk   05:25, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

 * Re: points 1 & 2, if something can't be attributed, make it a statement of fact, if it is a fact (ie., "was" rather than "was considered", "obsolete" rather than "arguably obsolete"). Point 3 might be worded better, perhaps with an example of another troubled revolutionary aircraft.  Points 4 & 6: the text seems to be common sense to me.  I agree with point 5 and sort of point 7 (it should be demonstrated that the recon missions were "valuable").  Point 8: while it would be nice to have a sample of the photography, I have no problem with the text. Geoff/Gsl 06:16, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Okay, let's recap:

 * Change 'was considered' and 'arguably' to statements of fact
 * Arguably obsolete: change to obsolete (might actually need a little more tweaking)
 * 'Also, the groundbreaking design had a number of problems, as is normal in revolutionary aircraft.'>>'Like many other revolutionary aircraft, the design had a number of problems. (Compare the case of the B-29 Superfortress, early versions of which were plagued with engine trouble).'  Other comparisions: XB-70, B-47, B-17 (except the last two really didn't have problems).
 * Definitely commonsense: the 900 hours of maintenance says it all (though the number seems a little high; more research needed).
 * Perhaps change to 'Without the B-36, the Strategic Air Command would have lacked a feasible nuclear deterrent, potentially placing the United States at the mercy of the Soviet Union.' This statement needs more tweaking, but it is nevertheless a simple fact.  The next closest bomber to the B-36 only had the range to make it halfway to Moscow.
 * Common sense: it is impossible to say for sure how a plane would have faired in combat.
 * About the recon missions: recon is always valuable, I think we can agree on that. Also, before the U-2 came into existence, there was only one plane capable of long range recon, and that was the B-36.  Ergo, being the only plane capable of doing recon missions, and recon being valuable, it was an immensely valuable recon plane.  Perhaps it should be reworded a bit.  ('though it gained all its publicity... It's recon missions were also valuable'?).
 * The golfball stat says it all.

 * Any more thoughts?  →Iñgōlemo←   talk   06:45, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

 * Re: point 7, having re-read the relevant text of the article, its comparing the value as a bomber versus value as a recon aircraft. As 119 put it, the "it is possible" bit is the problem.  Dropping it to give "While it received all its publicity in connection to its role as a strategic nuclear bomber, its rarely acknowledged reconnaissance missions were just as valuable." is better but is now making a firm judgement on the value of its two roles which would need to be justified.  It really needs a quote from someone that ranks its recon versus deterrent roles.  Or don't try and compare and just say it did a lot of recon... Geoff/Gsl 07:10, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Alright, I think we're there. Now I'm going to try and address those objections, on the nom page and in the article.   →Iñgōlemo←   talk   18:54, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

Categorisation again
Category:U.S. fighter aircraft 1940-1949 has fighters under both the F- 'fighter' and P- 'pursuit' heading. Should we merge them under F (or P?) or leave them as they are? →Iñgōlemo←  talk  21:30, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)
 * I say leave them as they are. -Lommer | talk 23:02, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * That's probably right.  →Iñgōlemo←   talk  00:25, 2005 Mar 26 (UTC)

FAC success
The Convair B-36 Featured Article Candidacy has succeeded. Congratulations to everyone who worked on it (including Morven, Brendano, Rlandmann, Lommer, and many others).

Great work, folks. →Iñgōlemo←  talk  00:21, 2005 Mar 27 (UTC)

Citing sources
I've been using a standard format for citing sources, but another user has changed it to the APA format, which I prefer. Would it be worth it to add this format to the == references == section of the /Page Content subpage, just so everyone's on the same page? →Iñgōlemo←  talk  03:53, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)
 * please do. good idea! -eric 05:55, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed - good idea, since APA's what Wikipedia's general citation guidelines suggest. I wasn't aware that your citations were in a standard format - which one? --Rlandmann 08:55, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it's MLA. I learned it in sixth grade, and have been using it in all of my 'standard MLA' papers since, without being marked down for incorrect MLA style.  So I assume it's MLA, but I'm not sure.  (MLA, by the way, is M. Literary Association or something of the sort).   →Iñgōlemo←   talk  15:22, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)
 * Modern Language Association. I think it's more common for literature writing; my history and sociology classes had me using the Chicago Manual of Style. They're all basically the same, anyway, just a matter of preference and whether they use inline citation. -eric 16:29, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * And you're spot on most of the time. However, details such as place of publication aren't just optional extras. Furthermore, while underlining titles is the norm for work submitted for assessment or for editing prior to publication (especially in manuscript), it's unusual in an actual publication. Actually, if you're following MLA style you shouldn't italicise at all - you should be underlining text for emphasis (which I think we agree wouldn't sit well with general Wikipedia style). --Rlandmann 04:35, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Airport
I've been trying to clean this mess of an article up for a while, but some odd edits keep getting made. the definition for airport, it seems, is far more specific to some than i believe it should be. I might be a minority here, but I think the article should focus more on the concept of an airport and less on specifics like 'military airports'. I'm going to split that section off into a separate article called Airbase and link to it.

Also, the latest Airport edit - Jetport? is that honestly common usage that deserves second mention? -eric 17:41, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with you - "airport" should first and foremost address what the word means in common parlance; with any specialist requirements spelled out later. FWIW, in Australia, customs facilities are not a pre-requisite for an "airport", although they are for an "international airport". Perhaps these are part of the formal definition of an airport in other English-speaking countries though? Jetport gets 153,000 hits on Google, so is probably worth mentioning. Maybe you'd like to take this up with WikiProject Airports though? (assuming it's still active...) --Rlandmann 05:03, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, a few weeks back I'd actually removed an edit claiming customs was necessary for any airport - only international airports in the US have customs, too. It was already mentioned in the body that intl airports had customs, so I feel that side of it is pretty well covered. I shifted jetport into what's becoming sort of a synonyms section. -eric 17:14, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

 * I've never heard of a jetport, and i'm obviously not the only one, so I've removed it. -Lommer | talk 20:14, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Also, for reference, what I'm using as the basis for most of my claims/arguments here is the U.S. Federal Aviation Regulations - FAR part 1.1 in particular has definitions including airport, which is generously generic:
 * Airport means an area of land or water that is used or intended to be used for the landing and takeoff of aircraft, and includes its buildings and facilities, if any.
 * I couldn't find an equivalent ICAO definition for airport, although I have a feeling it would agree. -eric 19:21, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed that legislators take a very broad view as to what constitutes an airport: Australia's Commonwealth Air Navigation Act 1920, sect 3(1) - "'airport' means an area of land or water (including any buildings, installations and equipment situated in the area) intended for use either wholly or partly for the arrival, departure or movement of aircraft." I can't find a copy of the UK Civil Aviation Act 1982 online, but in the The Airports (Northern Ireland) Order 1994, "'airport' means any area of land or water designed, equipped, set apart or commonly used for affording facilities for the landing and departure of aircraft and services and facilities for use in connection with the landing and departure of aircraft and includes any area or space, whether on the ground, on the roof of a building or elsewhere, which is designed, equipped or set apart for affording facilities for the landing and departure of aircraft capable of descending or climbing vertically;" --Rlandmann 04:58, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * For definitions, look for the word 'aerodrome'. The terms aerodrome and airport are used largely interchangeably throughout this [UK Government Department for Transport] document. ... The term ‘airport’, in legal parlance, has a similarly broad meaning [as aerodrome], also specifically encompassing the buildings and facilities on the aerodrome site. http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_aviation/documents/page/dft_aviation_026247.pdf

 * According to a US document on the ICAO website, the ICAO definition of Aerodrome is an area on land or water (including any buildings, installations and equipment) intended to be used for arrival, departure and surface movement of aircraft. http://www.icao.int/icao/en/anb/met/divmtg/wp/wp019_en.pdf

 * A UK CAA reference says the ICAO definition of Aerodrome in Annex 14 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation (Chicago 1944) is: A defined area on land or water (including any buildings, installations, and equipment) intended to be used either wholly or in part for the arrival, departure and surface movement of aircraft.

 * It goes on to say that the UK definition of Aerodrome is in section 105 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 as: any area of land or water designed, equipped, set apart or commonly used for affording facilities for the landing and departure of aircraft and includes any area or space, whether on the ground, on the roof of a building or elsewhere, which is designed, equipped or set apart for affording facilities for the landing and departure of aircraft capable of descending or climbing vertically.

 * It then says that the UK definition of Airport in section 82 of the airports Act 1986 says: the aggregate of the land, buildings and works comprised in an aerodrome within the meaning of the 1982 Act. http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=375&pagetype=90&pageid=1365 Bobblewik (talk) 14:16, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Mile: statute or nautical
Unfortunately the term 'mile' is ambiguous and could mean either 'statute mile' or 'nautical mile'. An non-specialist reader of Wikipedia (who may also be unfamiliar non-metric units) may assume that the term 'mile' is the distance of a statute mile. The specialist user may assume that 'mile' means nautical mile. Some articles are specific, others are not. There is even variation within the same article (this has affected the metric conversions of adjacent values). Does anyone else agree that it would be better if we specified the version of the mile in articles where it is ambiguous (e.g. aircraft, ships)? Bobblewik (talk) 16:18, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Absolutely.  →Iñgōlemo←   talk  18:47, 2005 Apr 17 (UTC)

 * i personally think we should just abbreviate them appropriately, getting rid of generic miles entirely. maybe the first time a wikilink to the definition, as is sometimes done with kg, would be appropriate; sm for statute, nm for nautical. it's conventional, it makes a lot more sense than mi, plus it gives a nice little popup 'title' tooltip. -eric 18:51, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * also, for speeds, i'm strongly of the opinion that we should use kts (or perhaps kts - mouse over for the difference) rather than mph. mph is for cars. -eric
 * Again, I agree, though I may be biased. As a Canadian, I've never flown an aircraft with the TAS indicator in anything other than knots (I've seen a double kph-kts line though). However, I hear that it's quite common to have TAS measured in mph in the U.S., and I assumed that was the reason for keeping it. If this is false, then absolutely change it right away. If it is true, then it will be difficult to justify changing, especially since in Europe they use kph. Perhaps the most acceptable compromise is one where speeds are listed in all three units? -Lommer | talk 02:49, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Only the oldest U.S. aircraft have indicators in mph - Piper and Cessna switched to kts in the mid 70s, if I recall. I would say the majority of GA, and everything commercial, uses knots, and the standard/assumed measurement used by atc is knots as well. -eric 04:10, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * I wholeheartedly agree — eric's suggestions are great too. -Lommer | talk 00:26, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The problem here is one of audience - nm and knots and far less meaningful than (statute) miles and mph to a non-specialist reader; which is why most non-specialist publications on aircraft tend to use these units and why I believe that we should too. I don't think it's likely that a specialist reader will take "mph" to mean knots, although I can see how they might assume "miles" to be nm.

Spelling out "statute miles" should both eliminate the ambiguity for the specialist, while still retaining the greatest meaning for the non-specialist. How widely recognised is "sm" in the US/UK? Would most US/UK readers immediately recognise this as "statute miles"? --Rlandmann 04:36, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't think I'd recognize sm as statute miles right away, though I would if I thought about it and it wouldn't be a problem if the first instance was linked to statute mile. On your other point, I can see the non-specialist audience argument, but I see two things wrong with it: 1) I think most people are at least aware of the nautical mile unit, and would be able to work with it if given a link. 2) More importantly, who will be reading these articles the most? Is it really laymen, or will it mostly be people already interested in aviation for whom knots will be more meaningful? I suspect the latter... -Lommer | talk 05:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As for the readership - I agree - probably the latter. However, while knots and nm will be as familiar and meaningful as mph and sm to aviation professionals and recreational flyers in the US and UK, is it true to say that this is also the case for most people interested in aircraft and aviation? If so, then why do so many generalist aviation references use the latter? (To clarify - that's not rhetoric or sarcasm! Just a request for information) --Rlandmann 06:21, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * It is not just Wikipedia that has this problem other publications have it too. You can sometimes see cumulative errors as source articles use each other and multiple conversions are done. Using 'sm' would not work for me and I can't see it being a policy that is long lived, widely used, or loved by readers. As far as speed is concerned, I am not worried because 'mph' and 'knots' seem adequate and are probably being used correctly. I think there are three problem areas:
 * 1. nautical mile interpreted as statute mile
 * I propose that (in all Wikipedia articles) the nautical mile is always written in such a way that will specify it as such. Some people already do this in a variety of ways e.g. 'nm', 'nmi', 'nautical mile'. I have my preferences but I don't think we should specify such detail. If a policy like this were taken up, it would solve most of the instances of ambiguity that I see.
 * 2. statute mile interpreted as nautical mile
 * I propose that where the domain (air, sea) commonly uses nautical miles, the statute mile is specified as such when it used.
 * 3. reader aware of both versions but cannot decide which was meant
 * Bobblewik (talk) 11:28, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I favor SI units. They are well defined and suitable for calculations. I don't really care whether it's mph or kts as long as km/h (or m/s) is mentioned as well. I'd use whatever obscure units the specialists fancy and put SI units next to them for everyone else. Rl 21:34, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Unducted fan
As "Unducted Fan" / UDF appears to be a copyrighted GE product name, I'm hesitant about the propfan article redirecting to UDF. It should probably work the other way round, as UDF is a specific example. It's like if turbofan redirected to Rolls-Royce Trent. They're about equal in terms of google results, but propfan seems to generally include UDF, and not the other way around. Normally I'd go ahead and change this, but as this and the Antonov An-70 article already have seen some combinations I decided to bring it up. -eric 23:37, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay - according to this NASA history, General Electric began work on "a different kind of propfan known as the Unducted Fan or UDF* (*UDF is a trademark of General Electric Company)". I'm moving UDF back to Propfan, and adding a section on the UDF in particular to the article. Hopefully everyone's okay with my reasoning, James in particular. -eric 02:27, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

proposal for a tagging template
I've realized it's difficult to tell which articles are lacking specifications as opposed to being an honest stub article. Why don't we create a not-quite-stub template like for incomplete articles of this type? it could go something like this:

 * This aircraft article is missing performance and other specifications. If you have a source, you can help Wikipedia by [ adding them].

 * This aircraft article is missing performance and other specifications. If you have a source, you can help Wikipedia by [ adding them].

Anyway... I think this could really help us out. I don't know how the template gods work, and just tweaked a stub, so if someone's a little more knowledgable... -eric ✈ 04:18, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * I like this idea. There's nothing wrong with attempting to use a template to coordinate efforts to flesh out articles.  Let's put this in motion!   →Iñgōlemo←   talk  05:07, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)

 * Well, two's not a majority by any shot, but I went ahead and created the template - aero-specs - and put a description in the category. -eric ✈ 19:21, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * I think it's a good idea. What about doing a similar template for articles that need to be converted from the old table standard to the new specs standard? I know there's still some articles that others refuse to change but there's a lot out there that still need to be converted. -Lommer | talk 00:48, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * That makes sense too. I'm mostly going to be tagging stuff with aero-stats for now, and writing copy for existing articles that I fancy. I'm really tempted to convert the Airbus A380 article to the new format, though. Really tempted. I'll see how long I can avoid scratching that itch. ;) -eric ✈ 01:03, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Photos of Dassault aircraft
To test the waters i requested permission to use Image:Dassault Mirage G8.jpg and recieved it. I didn't think to ask permission to use their entire Dassault Passion collection, but for future reference they might be willing to do so.

Also, I think I picked the wrong copyright tag, but the listing they've got here is a mess. Any help would be tops. -eric ✈ 14:09, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

 * I haven't looked over the copyright info, but one tag that might be applicable is   :

 * {| align=center border=0 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=4 style="border: 1px solid #CC9; background-color: #F1F1DE"

 * This work is copyrighted, and used with permission. The terms of the permission do not include third party use. For the purposes of Wikipedia, this license is a non-free license.
 * }
 * }

 * Images with this tag are meant to be used until a freer image can be found. We prefer not to use these kinds of photos because we cannot extend the same rights to our users as we received from the creators of the image.   →Iñgōlemo←   talk  00:53, 2005 Apr 28 (UTC)

aero-stats inline specs
Could we remove the word "characteristics" from the first subheading? If it's not necessary for "Performance," then it's not needed for "General." ✈ James C. 06:06, 2005 May 1 (UTC) (sorry if this is wrong talk page for this sort of thing... i'm a bit confused by the WikiProject Aircraft pages)

 * I think it's more the fact that you'll talk about, say, a plane's performance - and that word means something pretty widely understood. You don't really hear someone talk about a plane's general, though. If anything was to be removed, it actually ought to be the 'general'. But overall, I think it's fine, unless, of course, you were talking about removing the 'general' in the first place and I misunderstood. -eric ✈ 06:11, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Russian airliners nav-box
Currently, Soviet/Russian airliners have a navbox at the bottom that looks like this:

Since, a very similar template, has been changed to a new standard, I thought it might be worthwile to change the format of this one as well. A couple of points: the type designation is redundant, because that should (though it won't always be the case) be already obvious from the article. Ditto on the NATO codename. Comparable/Similar aircraft is redundant with the information given in.

What should be kept: Title, Design Bureau, Primary Designation series.

I would also like to propose using a layout more standard to navigation templates of this kind. Specifically, I would like the new footer (I don't think it has a template) to look like this:

→Iñgōlemo←  talk  19:32, 2005 May 25 (UTC)

 * These footers were developed by a contributor wishing to introduce a variant/rival to the then-standard navigational footer around 18 months ago. They only ever appeared on a handful of articles, and (as you point out) contain little that was not redundant to the standard footer and information that should have been included in the article anyway. With the implementation of the category system, they became even further redundant.

 * IMHO there's no reason to keep them at all. The "Primary Designation Series" is a purely arbitrary list that is not able to be consistently implemented across the WikiProject; and insisting that the Tupolev Tu-124 needs to link directly to a slew of unrelated OKBs is like insisting that the Boeing 707 needs to link directly to Martin Marietta. --Rlandmann 00:03, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I do like it though. The new version (which I have already implemented, because there hadn't been any response) eliminates the redundant information.  The primary designation series (should be renamed) could link to all other airliners designed by the same OKB.  Similar templates (such as Template:Foundation planets) are used to link together related articles with a nav-box.  I say keep.  It's not harming anything.   →Iñgōlemo←   talk  00:47, 2005 May 29 (UTC)

 * The links to the other OKBs are pretty much irrelevant, and a category would be a much better way to link Tupolev airliners together, if it's really that important. Probably the last thing the project needs is people coming up with all kinds of (individually perfectly harmless) navboxes to sprinkle around the place. The current related content section evolved out of a need to devise internal navigation that would be applicable right across the project. --Rlandmann 03:14, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I realised this later, and I now have them link to nav templates for each OKB, so you can go directly from Tupolev airliners to Ilyushin airliners. It will also make the navboxes much easier to remove.   →Iñgōlemo←   talk  02:01, 2005 May 30 (UTC)

 * FYI, if you decide to remove it, all the pages I added it to are linked in Template:Tu-civ-trans-text. By the way, many of these articles may be copyright violations (see, very similar to Tu-104, , very similar to Tu-114, , very similar to Tu-124).  I am tempted, to believe that our articles are the originals, but there is no way to be sure without emailing the site.   →Iñgōlemo←   talk  01:03, 2005 May 29 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the spot. I'm familiar with the site in question and have next to no doubt that these are copyvios. Fortunately, the Tu-104 and -114 articles weren't copyvios from the start (giving us something to revert to), but it seems that the Tu-124 will have to go :(. Please list it you-know-where --Rlandmann 03:14, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Edwards Air Force Base
Hi all, I've been working on the Edwards Air Force Base article with the goal of it eventually becoming a FAC. Its almost there now so I'm getting ready to submit it to peer review. Before I do that, I thought I'd solicit the input of the aircraft and airport wikiprojects, as these both probably have a vested interest in the shape of this article. I'd appreciate any help with the article proper, but if you don't have time and notice something missing, I've created a todo list on the talk page as well. Thanks, -Lommer | talk 18:38, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

aircraft power
In line with the recent discussion of nautical vs. statute miles, I just noticed something about the specs table. When we specify power, should it be for each engine (multi-engine planes only) or total power? Either way it doesn't really matter, but we should probably make it clear. Thoughts? -Lommer | talk 20:38, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Most of the old data tables give power as total power. All of the text-based specifications I've edited (the bulk of them!) give power per engine (since this is what most contributors seemed to be doing anyway). --Rlandmann 22:51, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

 * In all of the resources I've used for specs, none have given total power. Each one, without exception, cited power per engine.   →Iñgōlemo←   talk  01:55, 2005 May 31 (UTC)

 * I know I personnaly prefer power-per-engine to total power, but sometimes it looks weird when you get to doing power/mass ratios, and sometimes things get muddled up. Like I said above, it doesn't matter either way, I just think we ought to make it clear in the specs table -Lommer | talk 02:45, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

 * The overwhelming majority seems to give power/thrust-per-engine, so I modified Template:Airspec-imp and Template:Airspec-met to specifically indicate that it is power/thrust each. Hope I haven't done wrong.  (I also changed the comma between the engine type and the power rating to a semicolon.  Because power is usually four figures, you end up having the comma before the hundreds column be two or three characters away from the comma after the engines, which is visually confusing.)   →Iñgōlemo←   talk  04:23, 2005 May 31 (UTC)


text:
Henley-on-Todd Regatta

The Henley-on-Todd Regatta (also called the Todd River Race) is a "boat" race held annually in the typically dry sandy bed of the Todd River in Alice Springs, Australia.

It began – and continues – cautiously as a joke at the expense of the original British colonizers and the formal atmosphere of the British river races which continue today. Every year on the third Saturday of August, the town holds a mock regatta which large numbers of locals and tourists attend. Food and drink are sold at stalls, "no fishing" signs are put up, and the celebration takes all day. It is the only dry river regatta in the world; thus, in 1993 the event was cancelled for the year due to water in the river. However, the Alice Springs Hash House Harriers and Katherine Hash House Harriers running groups put their boat entry into the water and completed the course under protest of the track officials. This was televised by ABC and shown around Australia on the nightly news.

"Boats" are made from metal frames and hung with banners and advertisements, and teams of "rowers" run their boats in races through the hot sand. Races are also held in washtubs, human-sized hamster wheels and at the final event, modified trucks decked out as boats are driven by teams armed with flour bombs and water cannon. Many bystanders end up as casualties of the final battle. Traditional teams include pirates and vikings, complete with costumes. Who wins the final battle can be difficult to determine; even the announcers occasionally get a blast.

History
Reg Smith at the Alice Springs Meteorological Bureau proposed an actual regatta along the lines of the famous Henley Royal Regatta (at Henley-on-Thames, thus the name of the regatta) in 1962. The idea was taken up by the Rotary club of Alice Springs, and despite the fact that the town was 1500 km from the nearest large body of water this was never seen as a problem.

Watching seemingly sane people race in bottomless "eights", "Oxford tubs", "bath tubs" and yachts through the deep coarse sand of the Todd River is a unique spectacle amongst world sporting events and attracts many local and international participants.

The Henley-On-Todd Regatta is run entirely on a volunteer basis by three Rotary Clubs based in 'the Alice'.

The Todd River was named in 1871 by surveyor W. W. Mills after Sir Charles Todd, Superintendent of Telegraphs and Postmaster General of South Australia, who was the driving force for constructing the Australian Overland Telegraph Line from Port Augusta to Darwin. The river is usually dry, but prone to flooding during the wet season. Mills also named a waterhole in the bed of the Todd River as Alice Springs for Todd's wife, Alice, and this name was subsequently used for the telegraph station, and later the town.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Henley-on-Todd Regatta


text:
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Whitnall School District

Whitnall School District is a school district located in southwestern Milwaukee County, Wisconsin, which serves portions of the cities of Franklin, Greenfield, plus all of the village of Hales Corners. Its offices are located on the grounds of Whitnall High School in Greenfield. The district is named after Charles B. Whitnall, who was Milwaukee's first Socialist City Treasurer from 1910 - 1912 and designed the Milwaukee County Parks System.

Schools

 * Whitnall High School, Greenfield
 * Whitnall Middle School, Greenfield
 * Edgerton Elementary, Hales Corners
 * Hales Corners Elementary, Hales Corners

title: Whitnall School District


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CJAY

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was keep. Sjakkalle (Check!)  12:29, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

CJAY
Self-explanatory. Please delete. freestylefrappe 00:53, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. --Spinboy 03:01, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. I cleaned it up a little, and I see no reason to delete it.  Take a poke through Category:Radio stations or Category:Station stubs and see how many hundreds of stations with little information so far are in Wikipedia (e.g. 102.4 Wish FM, WKTG (FM)).  What would make CJAY worthy of deleting?  -- JamesTeterenko 06:29, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Real radio station with CRTC certification.  If the article isn't satisfactory in its current form: improve, don't delete.  CJCurrie 18:24, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. A worthy stub. --YUL89YYZ 19:06, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. I fail to see what's self-explanatory about it. Needs expansion but there are many radio and TV station articles in Wikipedia. 23skidoo 02:19, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep as with all of the other major radio stations. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 02:49, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep and expand. Notable enough radio station.Capitalistroadster 03:20, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * K grudgingly Fawcett5 04:11, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, Real. K1Bond007 04:45, May 30, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep seems no worse than the other thousand stubs a day we seem to get. Xcali 06:30, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep real radio station -CunningLinguist 08:58, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep please. NSR 10:02, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep a real radio station, tis a stub... but we have lots of them! no need to delete. UkPaolo 16:00, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak keep -- There is no indication from this article that there's anything particularly notable about this station, but there's no harm in keeping it. My thought is that there's no point in writing an article on a cookie-cutter radio station unless it has an interesting history (if it was notable in and of itself in the present, it wouldn't be cookie-cutter), but if the article's written there's a chance someone might look it up. Haikupoet 00:10, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Hopefully, I've added enough to make the station article useful; seems to me a leading station in a mid-size market appraching 30 years of broadcasting is reasonably notable as far as radio stations go. ByeByeBaby 04:31, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * keep please it isn't really so self explanatory after all Yuckfoo 16:10, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. sufficient explanation given above. --GrantNeufeld 15:56, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CJAY


text:
Talk:DeviantArt/Archive 1

 * "In late 2004, advertisements were introduced on the userpages of non-subscribing members."

This is not really accurate - the ads are only visible to non-subscribers, and non-subs have always had ads...so all that can really be said is "another ad was introduced". --disastrophe 18:42, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup Required
I hate to say this, but this page is a mess. While I did contribute several POV parts to this article earlier on, I'm seeing some form of hissy fit now happening between those who are pro- and anti-deviantart in the history page and to be frank, it's getting ridiculous. Once it would be all from the POV of users who are upset with deviantart policies; then everything would be removed and rewritten from the POV of someone who supports it. I think the most obvious I've seen is under the topic deviantART as a corporation - I was just editing the part about the search function being removed, and found that it was rewritten in such a way that it lost the meaning of the original line, and now makes absolutely no sense why it was ever pointed out. There's also one huge chunk in "Ethical Concerns" which, if viewed from an outsider's POV, doesn't seem to bear relevance to anything unless you read the history pages (someone else has previously written an angry point on deviantart's banning policy).

This just looks like some back-and-forth online fighting with people rewriting over others' points, and that is just making the article less about deviantart but more about the online fanfight it causes. Personally I don't think I'm going to do the cleanup because I was responsible for some POV stuff, but I suggest you all calm down and clear this article up. --Grumpyhan 17:26, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Banishment from the Community
I just noticed this section had been added. I don't get it. Most online communities out there can ban members for breaking policy. What makes deviantART so special? If no one replies, I am going to remove that addition. Ambush Commander 20:59, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

 * I checked the history and it turns out that the user Dxd is replacing huge chunks of text with the "banishment from the community" paragraph, which is exactly the kind of behaviour I'm talking about when I mention how this whole page is a mess because people keep making things nonsensical and unnecessary because it doesn't fit their POV (you are supposed to rectify errors within the information, not completely eradicate the whole thing and deny its existence!). There is no good reasoning behind the removal of "Ethical and Legal concerns", and while it may be generally confusing it should be reworded rather than replaced with how deviantart bans people - to which I agree with Ambush Commander has no reason to be in this article. (Dxd, I don't know if you read this part of wikipedia but your edits are very close to becoming vandalism. Can you please try not to remove huge paragraphs, or at least practise some restrain to not write DA-positive POV parts?) -Grumpyhan 05:12, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oh, um... oops
Ok, I just did an edit, and didn't realize how much of a pro-DA/anti-DA war there's going on here. I've just heard about a lot of this stuff - hell, I just had a deviation deleted and was told Gabe Newell's personal statement was not enough to confirm my assertion - but if my added stuff is too POV or something, feel free to prune it out. I'd do it, but I do kinda like what I wrote. Sorry if it gives anyone a headache. Scumbag 02:55, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Anti vs Pro
To be honest, everything after the intial section is so POV it's ridiculous.

The claims about the site administration are ridiculous and unfounded. Yes there are rules and yes there are guidebooks and training manuals that users don't get to see, but why the hell do you need to see them? Would you go ask a police officer to see his training manual?

And for the record I removed the other concerns bit because it was complete bull. Not an ounce of redeemable material in there.

If you want my recommendations for cleaning it up, remove everything after the first section and rewrite it all. Stick to the facts about what the site does, not about personal issues regarding bans or deleted work. dxd 24/04/2005

 * I hope this doesn't offend you, DXD, but I'm reading a strong bias towards pro-DA sentiments from your statement here. Using the words "ridiculous", "unfounded" and "bull" does nothing to prove that whatever you claim to be are of such if you do not bring up proof or try, at least, to quell such claims. Please amend and ensure that whatever you do is not so POV. -Grumpyhan 14:58, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with Grumps here. I didn't like how much was removed, so I put some of it back. I like to think I modified the article, in general, to be a bit more NPOV. Instead of saying what DA has said, or what banned people have said, I've mentioned both. And I know its lame to point this out, but I've seen the name DxD floating around deviantart for a while now... Scumbag

title: Talk:DeviantArt/Archive 1