text:
Talk:Pronunciation of English ⟨th⟩

Geographical Terminology
This article is fairly backward in its geographical terminology. The terms are generally outdated and/or too vague. "Britain and America" (which has been changed to the United Kingdom and the United States) and "the South", "the North" in relation to Scotland for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.31.15.112 (talk) 18:44, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Old Talk
Does anyone know if the two pronunciations of with are distributed geographically in America, as they are in Britain? --Doric Loon 20:49, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't have any published information on it, but I once did an informal survey of my acquaintances, and my impression was that people from the Northeast and the Inland North tended to say while people from the South and West tended to say, but those were only tendencies, and it was anything but a scientific investigation! --Angr/ 탉  21:21, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I suspect is more common everywhere.  AFAIK this is the General American :pronunciation, and hence the pronunciation you will see in most Midwest and West speakers, e.g. Benwing 8 July 2005 19:32 (UTC)
 * That is interesting, as from what I have always heard, the GAE with is /wɪθ/, ignoring the GAE being a rather vague notion to begin with. In addition, at least here in (southern) Wisconsin, [wɪθ] is by far the most common realization of with, with [wɪːð] being far less common than it, and with [wɪt̪] being a sporadic realization of it in informal speech in unstressed positions before stops.  Travis B. 11:03, 27 February 2005 (UTC)

Problem paragraphs
I have removed these two paragraphs pending discussion
 * Speakers of "Standard" English split into two groups in their articulatory implementation of /θ/ and /ð/: roughly half produce one or both interdentally, whereas the rest produce them with the tongue tip behind the teeth. (/s/ and /z/ show the same variation, but their interdental variants are stigmatized as a lisp and therefore are significantly less common in the adult population than their non-strident counterparts.)

 * Some Scots dialects, particularly Ulster Scots, pronounce initial /θ/ as [h], and /ð/ between vowels as [l]. For example mother is pronounced /m'ɑlɹ̩/ in Ulster Scots, and think is pronounced /hɪŋk/ throughout most of Scotland and Northern Ireland. Only a few words beginning /θ/ are affected (think, thing, thanks, nothing /n'ɑhɪn/ and anything /'ɛnɪhɪŋ/) while most words with intervocalic /ð/ are affected in Ulster Scots (father, mother, brother, other, rather and bother amongst others).

Angr rightly put the Fact tags here. These statements cannot stand. Apart from in certain consonant clusters like /ðz/ (clothes), I doubt very much that a significant proportion of speakers of standard English pronounce /ð/ with the tongue behind the teeth. I can attest that it is definately not true that think has [h] or mother has [l] "throughout most of Scotland". Sources, please, or these claims cannot remain on the page. --Doric Loon 16:01, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

th rune
if i am not mistaken, runic didn't distinguish between, or did't include both, voiced and unvoiced dental fricatives. there is a single rune which looks like an angular thorn, the third letter in the futhark. this ought to be mentioned by someone who knows the subject well enough to add it precisely. thanks. Aaronbrick 21:43, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually it did. The voiceless was represented by the Thorn (letter), and the voiced was represented by the Eth (letter).Cameron Nedland 20:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Runic didn't have the eth, only the thorn. The Roman alphabet as used for Old English was expanded to include eth and thorn, but they were used interchangeably: both could have either the voiced or the voiceless pronunciation. It was only in Icelandic (Old and Modern) that thorn is used for the voiceless and eth for the voiced sound. Angr (talk) 20:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry. My bad. Here I thought I knew something.Cameron Nedland 19:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

So then using thorn (þ) instead of θ might be better? Then the first sentence would be like: In English, the digraph ⟨th⟩ represents in most cases one of two different phonemes: the voiced dental fricative /ð/ (as in this) and the voiceless dental fricative /þ/ (thing).

Theta comes from IPA chart, but speaking about English, and if you refer to OE text:, my humble opinion is that thorn is more appropriate here. Besides, isn't þ the only surviving truely English letter? JC (talk) 14:33, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

 * θ is the phonetic symbol. Between two slashes, which indicate that we are talking about phonemes, you would use /θ/. So we can never write /þ/. But if you are talking about Old English seplling, then by all means use <þ> - between pointy brackets to indicate a grapheme. --Doric Loon (talk) 20:02, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Illustrations
The section on phonetic realisation would benefit from a diagram showing the two tongue positions. Most phonetics books have such a diagram, but these presumably are copyright. Would anyone here feel competent to draw one? --Doric Loon 21:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

GA Nomination
I am failing the GA nomination. While there is a lot of good material in the article I felt that the lack of in-line citations and only two references for what is a well known topic in phonology were simply not sufficient. Also the flow of the article could be improved. The sections don't follow from one another logically and simply seem to be strong along with out any overriding order (historical, phonological, orthographuc). Almost but not quite where it needs to be. Eluchil404 22:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Th...
Am I only person who knows that the "th" in "the" is shorter, different sound to that in "other". It is infact, at least in my accent quite a bit different, almost like a "th" mixed with an "l" sort of position.

 * So what IS your accent? It is usual for almost any phoneme to show allophonic variations.  The articleshould only mention them if they can are described in scholarly literature. --Doric Loon 19:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Bovver boy Standard English?
...and in at least one case has been transferred into standard English as a neologism: a bovver boy is a thug, a "boy" who likes "bother" (fights). Surely not Standard English just a phonetic spelling representing the /ð/ to [v] realisation. Probably as an indication of the perceived social status of the bother boy. 84.135.240.77 15:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, I would say it is now standard; at least as standard as "lager lout" and other phrases representing passing social phenomena. At any rate, it's in several dictionaries that I have lying around here.  --Doric Loon 16:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Which dictionary? It's not on Merriam-Websters, American Heritage, Reference.com, a few other online dictionaries and encyclopedias (including Wikipedia) just redirect to Skinhead and make no mention of the term, and even Wiktionary doesn't have an entry. For what it's worth, I had never heard of the term until I viewed this page, and believe it to be chiefly (well, exclusively, really) British. I could probably count on one hand the number of times I have heard an American use the word "bother" in that way, anyways. And even if that pronunciation is "fairly widespread," I would like to see some evidence it has any popularity in America, since I also feel that is somewhat relegated to Britain. Eebster the Great (talk) 05:30, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

This article
If one actually takes time to read this article, it turns out to be highly repetitive. This is a common problem around here, as people contribute without reading everything that has been written before. Anyway, it ought to be tightened up. I'm not doing it now because it would take more time and effort than I feel like spending these days. --194.145.161.227 22:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Yeh, there's a reason for that.  A few weeks ago someone merged a whole lot of material from another article, and did it so clumsily that although I spent over an hour tidying it up I still haven't ironed out the hicups.  In particular, the historical section needs completely rearranged.  Feel free: I don't have time, and to be honest I can't be bothered.  I spent so much time writing this article that I find it disspiriting to have to redo it all after someone messed everything around.  So, you have a go.  --Doric Loon 23:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks - I guess I'm going to do something about it at one point or another. --194.145.161.227 14:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm the "someone", thanks. It looked "clumsy" because I don't actually know anything about the subject myself, and so I figured it was better to err on the side of inclusion; if you felt the addition was a net negative you could have asked me to do more. But ironically it's all probably going to have to be reverted anyway, I now find out. That material was originally added to the article T by the user User:Macaw 54, who it now turns out was a sock puppet of a serial plagarist and so it's all likely in violation of copyright (see Talk:T). So this is a dispiriting time all around, it seems. Bryan 00:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Bryan, that wasn't meant to be personal, more an expression of my own November weariness. No, the addition wasn't a net negative, because some of the new material was interesting. But I have had to delete a lot of duplication, and there will be more, because as I say, I haven't tried to rationalise the history section yet. Plagiarism is only a problem if whole chunks of text are stolen, so if we are going to cut it back and keep the best bits, it is OK if some of those bits came from books. But perhaps we can prevail on Macaw 54 to reveal his sources? --Doric Loon 09:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I guess it can't hurt to try. Long term abuse/Primetime indicates that his source of choice is Encyclopedia Britannica, so even if he doesn't respond that'd be a good place to start looking. Since plagarism in and of itself isn't illegal, just the copyright violation part, perhaps if we can cite and rewrite the "good bits" sufficiently that they contain the same information but expressed in a different way we'll be okay. I suspect the sheer volume of material he added to T may be too big a task for that, but the stuff I split out to this article might be salvageable. Feeling a bit better now. :) Bryan 17:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Removing material
OK, I have started to redo the history section. There was a lot of duplication, and a lot of stuff which was unclear. I have written a new explanation of the Germanic prehistory, which is short and allows a lot of the longwinded stuff to be deleted. I have also deleted most of the material on the history of the letters thorn and eth, since that does not belong here. We have links to the thorn and eth articles, but just in case I am deleting anything important which is missing from those other articles, I will deposit the deleted passage here. Then some enterprising person can merge important points into those typographical articles if it seems worth doing. --Doric Loon 15:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

These paragraphs were deleted:
 * In the earliest known Old English writings in the Roman alphabet thorn was represented by th, the voiced spirant being often represented by d /д/ (sometimes by th). Before 700 probably, the character  ð , formed by a bar across the stem of д, was introduced; it appears in a charter of Wihtræd, king of Kent, 700-715. Apparently it was first used to denote the voiced spirant: see the proper names in the Moore Manuscript of Bæda, ca. 737, and the Liber Vitæ, Cotton Manuscript, ca. 800, and charters before 800 generally. But in the ninth century it was used for both spirants, as in the Vespasian Psalter, ca. 825 (e.g., iv. 5: " ð a  ð e cweo ð a ð "), and in a West Saxon charter of 847. In the 8th century apparently, the thorn, Þ , was adopted from the Runic futhorc, the earliest charter showing it being one of Coenwulf, king of Mercia, of 811 (Sweet, op. cit. 456); but it was not much used until late in the 9th century. A Surrey charter a 889 has 34 examples of  ð  initial, and 25 medial or final, with 49 of  Þ  initial, and 1 medial. From the later years of the 9th century  ð  and  Þ  were used promiscuously in West Saxon works, with some preponderance of  Þ  initially and  ð  finally. This continued in Middle English until the 13th century. On the other hand, the Durham Rituale and the Lindisfarne Gospel Gloss, ca. 950, have uniformly  ð  in all positions (except in the compendium  Þ  for  ðæ t), as has also the East Anglian Genesis & Exodus, ca. 1250; while the Mercian portion of the Rushworth Gospel Gloss, ca. 975, and Ormin, ca. 1200, have only  Þ . After 1250 the  ð  speedily became obsolete;  Þ  remained in use, but was gradually restricted more or less to the pronominal and demonstrative words. In later times its manuscript form approached, and at times became identical with, that of y (the latter being sometimes distinguished by having a dot placed over it). As the continental type used by William Caxton had no  Þ , its place in print was usually supplied by th for both sounds and in all positions. But in Scotland, the early printers, especially in the demonstrative and pronominal words, continued the  Þ  as y, as in ye, yis, yat, you--"thou," a practice also common in England in manuscripts, and hardly yet extinct. Confusion with the modern y consonant, Middle English  ȝ , was avoided in Scotland, sometimes by writing the latter yh, but usually by continuing Middle English  ȝ  in the form [[Image:Insular_G.GIF]] or z, so that ye zeir stood for  Þ e ȝ eir, i.e. the year. It is remarkable that, when Old English  Þ  and  ð  were both in use, no attempt was made to differentiate them as breath and voice spirants, and apparently no serious attempt even to distinguish them as initial and medio-final, as was done in Norwegian when the Roman alphabet was adopted, ca. 1200, and in Icelandic before 1300. At an earlier date (probably ca. 800) the character  ð  was partially adopted from Old English in Old Saxon, and was used generally in the middle and end of words, while th was usual as the breath spirant initially.

 * In the demonstrative and pronominal groups of words, change of initial  Þ  to t, by assimilation to a preceding dental (t, d, s), appears in earlier English. Old English  Þæt Þ e became  Þæt-te, Þ ætte;  Þ e læs Þ e appears in the 11th century as  Þ e læste, thus modern lest. In the last section of the Old English Chronicle, from 1132, Þ e after t or d regularly becomes te (e.g.,  Þ at te king, and te eorles). In the Ormulum and the Cotton Manuscript of "Cursor Mundi," this assimilation is seen in all the words of the the-thou group (Ormulum: " Þ att tatt te goddspell mene ÞÞ ," "wrohht tiss boc," and "tatt te follc all Þ ess te bett""; Cursor Mundi: "ne was tar, here and tare, scho serued taim, als sais te sau"). So in Ancren Riwle:and tet is, et tesse uerse, Þ eo Þ et tus do ð , and tes o ð er, etc.). In the course of the 14th century, this assimilation was given up, and the spirant reappeared (as  ð ).

Merge Th (digraph) into this article
The article Th (digraph) has very little text in it, and some of what is at Pronunciation of English th is actually about other languages, and the overall history of the digraph. I think the two should be merged. FilipeS 21:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Oh no, not again! Merges on this article seem to end up with me doing all the work to fix the seams.  But OK, that's not an argument.  I think a merge would be unhelpful.  This article is about English, and including unrelated languages would not benefit it.  Trying to reshape this article so it is about all languages equally would destroy it.  Having said that, much of the info in Th (digraph) is already here: the pronunciation in German, Welsh, and in Gaelic (which is almost Irish) are all mentioned.  The bit about Thai is nonsense: Thai doesn't use our alphabet, ergo it doesn't have the th-digraph.  The digraph is used when transcribing Thai, and has the same value it has when transcribing Sanscrit, which this article already mentions.  So there is no new insight to carry across, and just listing more and more languages brings no extra value. To be honest, I would just vote for deletion of Th (digraph) - it is so superficial, and trying to cover lots of unrelated languages under the umbrella of their arbitrary use of a spelling convension seems to me not the way linguists work.    --Doric Loon 23:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

If the merger proposal is rejected, I'm going to move half of this article to Th (digraph). The history of the digraph, including its prior use in Greek and Latin, and its use in Gaelic, do not belong in an article titled "Pronunciation of English th". :P ;-) FilipeS 00:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, yes they do belong here, because they explain the English situation (which for example reference to Albanian wouldn't).  There is no harm in having information in two places, especially if one of them is cursory and links to the other.  The account of the history of the digraph here is very brief, almost stub-like, because that is all that is required for present purposes.  But a full account of the history of the digraph wouldn't belong here, and if you think it would be useful to have one then by all means write it up poperly at Th (digraph).  But don't MOVE it, which is the lazy option: write what that article needs.  --Doric Loon 09:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I should explain more precisely why I selected the details I did for the history of the digraph section. This article is really about the history and complexity of the English sounds.  85% of it is on English phonetics and phonology.  The last 15% is really just short notes on why English uses these letters for these sounds.  There are three types of sounds associated with these letters, so there are three short sections charting the history of these three phoneme-grapheme relationships from origins down to English (including other languages only when they influence some words in English).  The last section is just a pointer to the fact that the digraph can do completely different things in other languages, hence a the reference to Gaelic.  This is kept very short because its purpose is only to put English in perspective as not being the only system.  A proper explanation of Gaelic lenition is not attempted in this three-line section, however, as that belongs elsewhere.  I hope that helps to show how this very carefully thought-out article, into which a vast amount of work has been invested, has a clear integrity as an account of a phenomenon in English.  So please don't mess with it on a whim.  Go instead to Th (digraph) and create something equally good there.  --Doric Loon 10:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It is indeed a well-written article, and the amount of historical background is tolerable. I will withdraw the merger proposal. FilipeS 18:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks. Let's see if we can't do something worthwhile with Th (digraph) instead. --Doric Loon 07:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

/ð/ tongue placement
The introduction states that for the phonemes the tongue can be either between the teeth or behind the upper teeth. I agree for theta, but as a native speaker, I find it almost impossible to make a /ð/ with my tongue behind the upper teeth. Instead, if I don't stick out my tongue, I place it behind my lower teeth. Kdammers 04:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Sure - not every native speaker would do this. I do it in certain collocations, for example in "clothes", where it is easier to get to the s if the th is not properly interdental. I think the statement is right: the allophones exist. --Doric Loon 16:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Another pronunciation
This is only one word I can think of in which 'th' is pronounced like this, but (at least the way I say it) 'posthumous' has 'th' pronounced almost like 'ch'. Like I said, it's only one word, so I'm not sure it worthy of a mention on this article, but I thought I would bring it up. DrJorin (talk) 13:52, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Th as S?
I have heard people saying "thank you" as "sank you". What causes this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minihag a (talk • contribs) 09:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC) That would be a lisp, and in that case it would be a dental s. (from below)

Smooth?
In the article it states, in layman's terms no less, that /smuːð/ and /smuːθ/ are acceptable pronunciations of the word 'smooth'. Now I don't know what country uses the latter pronunciation, but it sure isn't Australia- and most probably other countries in the Anglosphere. This probably needs changing. En-AU  Speaker  (T)  (C)  (E) 04:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Jakob37 (talk) 03:42, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

medial position - comments
1. Arthur (Welsh has /θ/ medially: /ærθɨr/) - isn't it /arθr/?

2. brothel, Ethel - if we are including proper names, how about Bothell, a suburb of Seattle? Rimes with brothel. Also, are you sure Ethel doesn't come from Hebrew, Aramaic, etc. What is it's origin?

3. Speaking in general, some discussion in this section about the relationship between pronunciation and morpheme boundaries would not be amiss. Jakob37 (talk) 03:51, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

 * In Welsh, Arthur is . Ethel is of Anglo-Saxon origin; it comes from the Old English word for "noble". (The þ/ð was voiced in Old English, so I don't know why it's become voiceless in the Modern English name.) +Angr 08:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation queries
In British English (my accent is somewhere between RP and Estuarine), I would pronounce the medial ‹th› in both earthen and earthenware with /θ/. Similarly, I would pronounce the final ‹th› in loath and loathe as homonymous with /ð/ and I've never heard froth (the verb) with a /ð/.

Finally, the medial ‹th› in bathing could be either /θ/ or /ð/ for a reflexive verb — "I was bathing the baby" could be /bɑːθɪŋ/ or /beiðɪŋ/; the self-reflexive "I was bathing in the pool" would only be /beiðɪŋ/ — OwenBlacker (Talk) 23:55, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I second the comment about earthen being with /θ/. In fact, wiktionary lists that as the only pronunciation. - Rflrob (talk) 07:49, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Then be bold! But best get a reference for anything you change. I personally do distinguish loath and loathe, but otherwise I agree with both you and Owen Blacker. --Doric Loon (talk) 08:24, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

New York
nu'in on new yawk? I'm from queens and my Th is a light D or T (but never CH even in cluster Thr) and I know for sure im not alone —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.208.141 (talk) 22:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

By far the most common speech impedimant (?)
The section "Acquisition problems" says that the lisp "is by far the most common speech impediment in English". This is unsourced, and I think it's almost certainly untrue. Inability to pronounce "r" is a common problem; it wouldn't surprise me if it's more common than the lisp. But even if it's not, saying the lisp is "by far" the most common is wrong. So I'm going to change it to "is a common speech impediment in English". Duoduoduo (talk) 15:39, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Quite right. --Doric Loon (talk) 15:52, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Number of examples
@Doric Loon: You wrote "it only makes sense to have one each for initial, medial and final position. Otherwise why not have even more?" Maybe I'm wrong, but I think these are the only examples. (Or are there some I'm not aware of?) If I'm right, I don't think it makes sense to list three out the four examples but not the fourth. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:08, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

 * No, there are more further down the page: teeth:teethe, mouth (noun) : mouth (verb) etc. For phonemic comparisons, just one minimal pair in each of the three positions is what you would normally give - hence further down also the then-zen-den sets are structured the same way. (Actually, one pair is enough to prove a phonemic relationship, but since some phonemes are only distinct in certain positions, like d and t in German, which merge in final position, it is more satisfying to have three.) But you are right, there are not many minimal pairs, and if you think it appropriate you can certainly make your point somewhere in the detailed list further down the article. Though to be honest, I doubt if thou (=thousand) is standard enough to be worth bringing in - feels rather contrived, the kind of thing I would only cite for the sake of being cute. But if you really use it, well ok. --Doric Loon (talk) 21:04, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Refs
If anyone is looking for some refs to back up a lot of this article you may want to check out the OED entry for th. In fact a good bit of this article seems to have been taken from the OED entry, including examples. pschemp | talk 22:14, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Ðanks
I (and most of my family members) pronounce "thank" and its derivatives with /ð/ – an exception to the rule that only function words have initial /ð/. Does anyone else do this? (suoı̣ʇnqı̣ɹʇuoɔ · ʞlɐʇ) nɯnuı̣ɥԀ 20:28, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I've never heard that, and would be interested to know where you come from, or whether you belong to any particular sociolinguistic grouping. If you are a native speaker and it is part of your language, then that is highly interesting, and certainly not wrong. For the moment, I wouldn't add it to the article though.--Doric Loon (talk) 16:42, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

I also pronounce it like this and so do most other people who live in my area. Ledlecreeper27 (talk) 23:16, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Alveolar sibilant
This article uses "alveolar sibilant" interchangeably with "alveolar fricative". The former term is maybe a bit more intuitive, but rather uncommon (as evidenced by the fact that it's a redlink). We should be consistent. Should we either use the former (and create a redirection to alveolar fricative) or the latter? — Sebastian 10:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Since nobody replied, I changed the one remaining instance of “alveolar sibilant” to “alveolar fricative”. ◄ Sebastian 13:48, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, "alveolar sibilant" may be a redlink, but "alveolar fricative" is a redirect, which is only marginally better. A sibilant is a kind of fricative. They are not interchangeable, but all sibilants are fricatives. Your change has made this slightly less precise. I don't think it makes much difference, though. --Doric Loon (talk) 16:30, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the change, though not essential, is perfectly fine. English has no non-sibilant alveolar fricatives and "fricative" is indeed a much more widely recognized term. Nardog (talk) 18:12, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Homophonous pairs
The list at was recently expanded to contain some rather unusual words, such as “Louth”. Now the question arises: Where do we draw the line? Is the list intended to be complete or as a list of examples? ◄ Sebastian 13:48, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * No, the list is not intended to be complete. We should have as many examples as are necessary to illustrate the point, not more. One of my constant complaints with linguistics articles is that people feel the need to keep adding other examples or details that occur to them without thinking about how it helps the whole text. The result is a clutter that becomes less and less clear to the reader. So I would encourage you to be bold and revert additions that you think aren't really helping.--Doric Loon (talk) 16:36, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a problem with almost every one of these types of lists used in language articles. The de facto rule is to allow any number of examples, as long as they're valid. These lists can never realistically be complete, so there will always be more possible examples to add. Any limit will be arbitrary and will differ from article to article (unless it gets incorporated into a manual of style for linguistics or something). I'm slightly for introducing a limit, but I think the hassle of reverting additions that go over the limit is more than any benefits gained from the limit in the first place. That's not to mention figuring out which examples to keep and which to throw away.--Megaman en m (talk) 16:45, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Those lists of homophonous pairs have been a source of OR and WP:INDISCRIMINATE and only IPs seem to ever edit them. I'd totally be down with axing them, though I'm sure seeking a wider consensus at WT:LING or WT:WPENGLISH or the like is preferable. Nardog (talk) 18:18, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I would agree with axing it. Put two very obvious examples into the text, if they are sourced, and leave it like that. Though I am not convinced we even need that.--Doric Loon (talk) 19:56, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Three strengths of "th" not two??
It seems that the IPA only recognizes two strengths of "th" but I can hear three. Let's consider the words "the", "father" and "thought". I think that everyone would agree that out of these three words, "the" has the weakest pronunciation of "th" and "thought" has the strongest. However, does anyone agree with me that the word "father" has a middle-strength pronunciation of "th"? If yes then does anyone know why the IPA does not recognize three strengths of "th"? 95.172.233.137 (talk) 15:12, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I am not convinced that there are three strengths in my dialect (UK near RP). I think that "this" and "father" are essentially the same, bar the usual additional emphasis on stressed syllables. -- Q Chris (talk) 11:05, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Q Chris, very much for your reply. For me, the "th" in "this" is definitely weaker than the "th" in "father". Imaging saying "far the" (not pronouncing the "r" like Americans and Irish people do) when you intend to say "father". To me, that would sound wrong. What do you think? 95.172.233.137 (talk) 12:43, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Remember that the talk page is not a forum to discuss the topic at hand, rather it's used to talk about how to improve the article.--Megaman en m (talk) 13:33, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

 * There are two "th"-phonemes in English. Each of them has a variety of allophones. So the voiced sounds in "the" and "father" are the same phoneme, but obviously there will be a slightly different realization depending on whether the sound is in initial or medial position. But try experimenting with minimal pairs. You can hear two different sounds in otherwise identical words if you try saying "thy" and "thigh". You can't get a third one in the same position. --Doric Loon (talk) 22:28, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

 * The 'th' in 'the' and the 'th' in 'father' are exactly the same, as are the all the listed examples. There are only two: eth and thorn 2601:182:4381:E60:244F:964C:E05F:5BA2 (talk) 17:57, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pronunciation of English ⟨th⟩


text:
Lokomotif

Lokomotif (or Locomotif) is a Turkish band that represented Turkey (along with Seyyal Taner) in the Eurovision Song Contest 1987 with the song "Şarkım Sevgi Üstüne" (My Song Is About Love). They failed to score any points and finished last.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Lokomotif


text:
Cunsey Beck

Cunsey Beck is one of several rivers and streams that replenish the lake of Windermere in the English Lake District. Being just over two miles (3.2 km) in length and generally slow flowing, the stream descends some 87 feet (27 m) from the southern end of Esthwaite Water, which it drains, to the western banks of Windermere near an island called Ling Holm.

After flowing out of Esthwaite Water, the Cunsey Beck replenishes the small Out Dubs Tarn. Draining the tarn at its southern end, the beck then flows in a south-easterly direction between the conifer-wooded slopes of Grizedale Forest to the south and west, and the deciduous woodland of Bishop Woods to the north. Just before entering Windermere, the beck passes through the deciduous Cunsey Wood. Immediately before entering the lake, Cunsey Beck is crossed by a footbridge, which is part of a public footpath along a stretch of the western shore of Windermere.

In 2022 the beck was the scene of a major pollution incident and many fish were killed. Local campaigners believe the cause was inadequately investigated at the time.

title: Cunsey Beck


text:
Ali Babacan

Ali Babacan (born 4 April 1967) is a Turkish politician, economist, and engineer. He is the founder and current leader of the Democracy and Progress Party (DEVA). He served 13 years as the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister of Economy, Chief Negotiator for the EU and Deputy Prime Minister of Turkey from 2002 to 2015. He was a member of the parliament as well.

He first served as the Minister of State in charge of economic affairs in the 58th cabinet from the Justice and Development Party (AKP). He retained this position throughout the 58th and 59th Governments of the Republic of Turkey. On 29 August 2007 he was appointed as the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the 60th Government of the Republic of Turkey. During 2009–2015, he served as the Deputy Prime Minister for Economic and Financial Affairs of Turkey.

Ali Babacan had the duty of steering a harsh economic reform program, which was backed by multibillion-dollar IMF loans; under his leadership, the Turkish economy achieved a remarkable recovery after two severe crises. He mostly stayed away from the Turkish political arena and focused on economic reforms, acting more like a technocrat.

In 2019, Babacan left the AKP, citing "deep differences" over the party's direction as a reason, and founded the Democracy and Progress Party (DEVA) in 2020. DEVA eventually joined the Nation Alliance, opposing AKP and Turkish president Erdoğan.

Education
Ali Babacan graduated from TED Ankara College ranking first among the class of 1985. He attended the Middle East Technical University (METU) in Ankara and in 1989 was awarded a BSc in Industrial Engineering with the highest marks (4.00 point out of 4.00).

Babacan went to the U.S. on a Fulbright Scholarship to do postgraduate studies and in 1992 received an MBA from the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois, with majors in marketing, organizational behavior and international business.

Career in finance
Babacan worked then for two years as an associate at QRM, Inc. in Chicago, Illinois, a company doing financial consulting to the top executives of major banks in the United States. He returned to Turkey in 1994 and, served as chief advisor to the mayor of Ankara the same year. He was the chairman of his family owned textile company between 1994 and 2002.

Ministry of Foreign Affairs & Economy (2002–2015)
He entered politics in 2001 as a co-founder and a board member of the Justice and Development Party and was elected to parliament as deputy for Ankara on 3 November 2002. He was appointed Minister of Economy on 18 November 2002 and became the youngest member of the cabinet, then at the age of 35.

On 24 May 2005 Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan announced his appointment as chief negotiator in Turkey's accession talks with the European Union, which started on 3 October 2005. As government minister Babacan attended several international meetings including the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, and the Bilderberg Group.

In 2019, Babacan left the ruling AKP, citing "deep differences" over the party's direction as a reason.

Leader of the DEVA (2020–present)
Babacan confirmed his intent to form this party in a late 2019 interview with journalist Şirin Payzın of T24, and expects his party to be a "mainstream party" with particular focuses on minority rights, a return to Turkey's parliamentary system, fair processes in courts and legislation, and restoring freedom of speech and expression. Babacan is quoted as saying that "the nation will give our party its name".

On 9 March 2020, he founded Democracy and Progress Party, abbreviated as "DEVA" or "remedy" in Turkish. The DEVA Party held its first meeting of the Board of Founders on 10 March 2020, where he was unanimously elected Chairman.

Personal life
Babacan is married and has three children. He also speaks English.

title: Ali Babacan


text:
Sulfamic acid

Sulfamic acid, also known as amidosulfonic acid, amidosulfuric acid, aminosulfonic acid, sulphamic acid and sulfamidic acid, is a molecular compound with the formula H3NSO3. This colourless, water-soluble compound finds many applications. Sulfamic acid melts at 205 °C before decomposing at higher temperatures to water, sulfur trioxide, sulfur dioxide and nitrogen.

Sulfamic acid (H3NSO3) may be considered an intermediate compound between sulfuric acid (H2SO4), and sulfamide (H4N2SO2), effectively replacing a hydroxyl (–OH) group with an amine (–NH2) group at each step. This pattern can extend no further in either direction without breaking down the sulfonyl (–SO2–) moiety. Sulfamates are derivatives of sulfamic acid.

Production
Sulfamic acid is produced industrially by treating urea with a mixture of sulfur trioxide and sulfuric acid (or oleum). The conversion is conducted in two stages, the first being sulfamation:
 * OC(NH2)2 + SO3 → OC(NH2)(NHSO3H)
 * OC(NH2)(NHSO3H) + H2SO4 → CO2 + 2 H3NSO3

In this way, approximately 96,000 tonnes were produced in 1995.

Structure and reactivity
The compound is well described by the formula H3NSO3, not the tautomer H2NSO2(OH). The relevant bond distances are 1.44 Å for the S=O and 1.77 Å for the S–N. The greater length of the S–N is consistent with a single bond. Furthermore, a neutron diffraction study located the hydrogen atoms, all three of which are 1.03 Å distant from the nitrogen. In the solid state, the molecule of sulfamic acid is well described by a zwitterionic form.

Hydrolysis
The crystalline solid is indefinitely stable under ordinary storage conditions, however, aqueous solutions of sulfamic acid slowly hydrolyse to ammonium bisulfate, according to the following reaction:

 * H3NSO3 + H2O → [NH4]+[HSO4]−

Its behaviour resembles that of urea, (H2N)2CO. Both feature amino groups linked to electron-withdrawing centres that can participate in delocalised bonding. Both liberate ammonia upon heating in water, with urea releasing CO2 while sulfamic acid releases sulfuric acid.

Acid–base reactions
Sulfamic acid is a moderately strong acid, Ka = 0.101 (pKa = 0.995). Because the solid is not hygroscopic, it is used as a standard in acidimetry (quantitative assays of acid content).

 * H3NSO3 + NaOH → NaH2NSO3 + H2O

Double deprotonation can be effected in liquid ammonia to give the anion.

 * H3NSO3 + 2 NH3 → + 2

Reaction with nitric and nitrous acids
With nitrous acid, sulfamic acid reacts to give nitrogen:
 * HNO2 + H3NSO3 → H2SO4 + N2 + H2O

while with concentrated nitric acid, it affords nitrous oxide:
 * HNO3 + H3NSO3 → H2SO4 + N2O + H2O

Reaction with hypochlorite
The reaction of excess hypochlorite ions with sulfamic acid or a sulfamate salt gives rise reversibly to both N-chlorosulfamate and N,N-dichlorosulfamate ions.

 * HClO + H2NSO3H → ClNHSO3H + H2O
 * HClO + ClNHSO3H Cl2NSO3H + H2O

Consequently, sulfamic acid is used as hypochlorite scavenger in the oxidation of aldehydes with chlorite such as the Pinnick oxidation.

Reaction with alcohols
Upon heating sulfamic acid will react with alcohols to form the corresponding organosulfates. It is more expensive than other reagents for doing this, such as chlorosulfonic acid or oleum, but is also significantly milder and will not sulfonate aromatic rings. Products are produced as their ammonium salts. Such reactions can be catalyzed by the presence of urea. Without the presence of any catalysts, sulfamic acid will not react with ethanol at temperatures below 100 °C.

 * ROH + H2NSO3H → ROS(O)2O− +

An example of this reaction is the production 2-ethylhexyl sulfate, a wetting agent used in the mercerisation of cotton, by combining sulfamic acid with 2-ethylhexanol.

Applications
Sulfamic acid is mainly a precursor to sweet-tasting compounds. Reaction with cyclohexylamine followed by addition of NaOH gives C6H11NHSO3Na, sodium cyclamate. Related compounds are also sweeteners, such as acesulfame potassium.

Sulfamates have been used in the design of many types of therapeutic agents such as antibiotics, nucleoside/nucleotide human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) reverse transcriptase inhibitors, HIV protease inhibitors (PIs), anticancer drugs (steroid sulfatase and carbonic anhydrase inhibitors), anti-epileptic drugs, and weight loss drugs.

Cleaning agent
Sulfamic acid is used as an acidic cleaning agent and descaling agent sometimes pure or as a component of proprietary mixtures, typically for metals and ceramics. For cleaning purposes, there are different grades based on application such as GP Grade, SR Grade and TM Grade. It is frequently used for removing rust and limescale, replacing the more volatile and irritating hydrochloric acid, which is cheaper. It is often a component of household descalant, for example, Lime-A-Way Thick Gel contains up to 8% sulfamic acid and has pH 2.0–2.2, or detergents used for removal of limescale. When compared to most of the common strong mineral acids, sulfamic acid has desirable water descaling properties, low volatility, and low toxicity. It forms water-soluble salts of calcium, nickel, and ferric iron.

Sulfamic acid is preferable to hydrochloric acid in household use, due to its intrinsic safety. If inadvertently mixed with hypochlorite based products such as bleach, it does not form chlorine gas, whereas the most common acids would; the reaction (neutralisation) with ammonia, produces a salt, as depicted in the section above.

It also finds applications in the industrial cleaning of dairy and brewhouse equipment. Although it is considered less corrosive than hydrochloric acid, corrosion inhibitors are often added to the commercial cleansers of which it is a component. It can be used as a descalant for descaling home coffee and espresso machines and in denture cleaners.

Other uses

 * Catalyst for esterification process
 * Dye and pigment manufacturing
 * Herbicide
 * Descalant for scale removal
 * Coagulator for urea-formaldehyde resins
 * Ingredient in fire extinguishing media. Sulfamic acid is the main raw material for ammonium sulfamate which is a widely used herbicide and fire retardant material for household products.
 * Pulp and paper industry as a chloride stabilizer
 * Synthesis of nitrous oxide by reaction with nitric acid
 * The deprotonated form (sulfamate) is a common counterion for nickel(II) in electroplating.
 * Used to separate nitrite ions from mixture of nitrite and nitrate ions( NO3−+ NO2−) during qualitative analysis of nitrate by Brown Ring test.
 * Obtaining deep eutectic solvents with urea

Silver polishing
According to the label on the consumer product, the silver cleaning product TarnX contains thiourea, a detergent, and sulfamic acid.

title: Sulfamic acid


text:
User talk:Jahnieboi

Pimpology

The study of understanding, while developing the ability to adapt to the complexity of a woman's feelings and understandings to fulfill your desires and to manipulate the concepts of trust between woman and man. Treating the woman as an object, while in the same process, she believing that the respect and love is existent in the relationship. Fooling, deceiving, and controlling the woman as a chess piece accordingly.

title: User talk:Jahnieboi


text: User talk:24.84.212.100

title: User talk:24.84.212.100


text: User talk:81.193.189.2

title: User talk:81.193.189.2


text:
DVU

DVU may refer to:

 * Delaware Valley University, a university in Doylestown, Pennsylvania
 * German People's Union, Deutsche Volksunion, a nationalist political party in Germany

title: DVU


text:
Talk:Harpo Marx

I think this article needs an overhaul
also, i have a great picture of harpo. i was wondering how i add it under the fair use provision thingy? im pretty new here. Everything Inane 05:09, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree, this article does need some work. And, if you're still around, I think your picture may be good.  It should qualify as fair use.  If you took the picture or it was taken before 1922 there'd be no copyright to worry about but I doubt either is the case.  Nevertheless, it probably would qualify as fair use.  Check out WP:Fair use if you haven't already for reasons why it might be acceptable.
 * This article does need a good photograph of Harpo. The Dali drawing (while interesting) isn't as good as a photograph would be.  -kotra 11:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Why did he have an open heart surgery?
 * It is usually because of a heart attack. Rarely done as elective surgery.Shsilver 16:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

yes, he had a few heart attacks. if you want to read about it i suggest "harpo speaks", his autobiography. he initially became scared and was careful with the heart attacks, but after a while he decided to continue to do the things he loved anyways, like the harp, and golf, and just having fun. he was true to the last. Everything Inane 04:18, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I can't find my copy of the book. Since you have it, could you maybe clear up (if necessary) the question of what his real name was? I don't think it was "Adolph Arthur Marx", I think it was originally "Adolph" and he changed it to "Arthur". But I'm not totally sure on that point. Wahkeenah 09:56, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

i think you might be right, but i dont remember, ill have to look into it

Yes, his real name was Adolph. His brothers called him "Ahdie". It's a little creepy how his "adopted" son Alex looks alot like Gummo in later life!!!

Look for "Harpo speaks" on Amazon.com. You'll prolly find it at a great price! In his autobio, he interestingly understates his age by 5 years, claiming 1893 as year of birth but I think betrays this by mentioning things like Grover Cleveland buttons.Jrm2007 09:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

More about Harpo Speaks: discovered via web search year of brothel piano playing was 1907 -- he cites article about the owner and her gang. Deliberate fuzziness again about years?Jrm2007 09:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I have Harpo Speaks in my travel bag - I'm fairly sure that in it he relates that he was born Adolph, and then changed it in the 1930s in response to the rise of Hitler and his brand of anti-semitism. I will search for the quote. -Harlsbottom 03:47, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Please do. I've been trying to find my copy. I too am almost certain he was born Adolph and changed it to Arthur; that his name was not "Adolph Arthur Marx". However, I haven't posted that because I couldn't find the book. Feel free to fix it. :) Wahkeenah 04:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This site elaborates. The interesting thing is that Harpo was calling himself Arthur as early as 1913, before the outbreak of WWI. Now we really need to find out what he says in Harpo Speaks, especially if he is contradicting himself. But there seems little doubt that he was born Adolph and adopted the name Arthur. Wahkeenah 16:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the popular legend is that he changed it prior to WWII for obvious reasons and particularly to distance himself from the anti-Semitic Nazis, but the truth may be closer to avoiding anti-German sentiment prior to the Great War. The Marxes were demonstrably proud of being American, and the extent of Nazi German anti-Semitism wasn't apparent in the US until after American involvement in WWII.  [EDIT] This is from the article on Marx Brothers:
 * During World War I, anti-German sentiments grew, and the family tried to hide their German origin. Harpo changed his real first name from Adolph to Arthur, and Groucho discontinued his "German" stage personality.
 * There is no citation, but it strangely encapsulates what I was trying to say earlier. This is echoed by one of the article's references, http://www.marx-brothers.org/biography/harpo.htm:
 * Harpo was given the name Adolph, but changed it to Arthur during World War I because it was too 'German'.
 * Although no exact date is given, the consensus is leaning toward the pre-WWI explanation. Canonblack 01:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

'George S. Kaufman and Moss Hart based the character of "Banjo" in their play The Man Who Came to Dinner on Harpo and later played the role in Los Angeles opposite Alexander Woolcott who had inspired the character of Sheridan Whiteside.'

Who played the role opposite Woolcott? Presumably Harpo but you can't be sure from this mess of a sentence. It could easily have been Kaufman or Hart. Harpo certainly did play "Banjo" at one point and, yes, he spoke! Please fix this! And you might also add citations! Ed (talk) 15:40, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is Harpo's d.o.b. listed as 1893 in 'Harpo Speaks' but 1888 on Wiki? —Preceding unsigned comment added by PoeBird (talk • contribs) 18:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Allan Sherman and HM
My relevant book (A Gift of Laughter) is packed away, but it's worth mentioning that Marx and Allan Sherman were neighbors and good friends. Marx, as I recall, was partially responsible for jump-starting Sherman's parody-singing career (as distinct from his stalled career in television game shows).Lawikitejana 18:01, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Harpocrates
it was recently suggested and edited into the harpo page here that harpo was names after harpocrates, the egyptian god of silence. This is untrue according to the autobiography "Harpo Speaks", and I have removed it, but Ill be god damned if this isnt an interesting point. We know that there was great interest in egyption culture or at least fashion in the 20's as well. But even if the card player who gave Harpo his name knew this, it is too interesting that harpo happened to play the harp as well, and wasn't this beore he stopped speaking on stage? As far as I can tell it's all unrelated but even if it partially wasn't, it's very coincidential.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Everything Inane (talk • contribs) 01:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

Everything Inane 01:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

 * It was simply vandalism. No need to comment about it, just revert it.Shsilver 02:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It was at least somewhat clever... except Harpocrates would be Greek, not Egyptian. Meanwhile, there is no question that Harpo got his name from playing the harp. Groucho also mentioned that in his Carnegie Hall concert, along with Chico originally being Chick-o because he was a "chicken chaser". That prelude was a setup to his remark, "I have no idea where my nickname came from!" Wahkeenah 07:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi guys, my friend edited that & he complained to me that his edit was reverted. Could you see see if you'd like my edit instead? (Wikimachine 19:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Well, as Harpo would say... "HONK!" Wahkeenah 23:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone keeps trying to add it back. It's only a coincidence, it's not true. And if you read the article, you'll see that the assertion that Harpocrates was the Egyptian god of silence is also not true. Wahkeenah 13:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

 * If the fact of the matter is, indeed, that there is not a real connection between Harpo and Harpokrates, then leave it out of the article. This is an encyclopedia after all, and not a trivia collection. I suggest we put it to a vote here: who wants Harpokrates in the article? I vote "no". --K72ndst 14:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

 * There is no reason to vote. It is plain and simple vandalism.  Harpo got his name because he played the harp, a fact which is easily verifiable in numerous sources. If the vandals could find even a single reputable source for their garbage, I might think it could possibly be worth a vote. Voting on it, however, would be like voting whether to include a statement that Dorothy Parker got her name becasue she used to "park" with various men in dimly lit corners of Central Park. Shsilver 14:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably parking with Chico, ironically enough. For the moment, I'm going to pretend it's an honest mistake or "original research". It it happens again, then it's vandalism for sure, and the three revert rule will not apply (nor hopefully will it be necessary, but we'll see). Wahkeenah 14:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Please stop? Ha! Ridiculous. Look here. Did you not see the source? Just go to my user page. Any sign of credibility there? 3RR? I never reverted, added just once. Are you assuming that that anonymous user IP & I are sock puppets? I'd recommend some sign of apology, sir (or mam). Let me tell you this. My friend is the valedictorian at our school & sadly he can't contribute as he should because he has not a single clue on how Wiki works. Think of his contribution as a gift. He always complains that whatever he edits, people revert it back. Think again, buddy. Think again. (Wikimachine 00:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC))
 * A valedictorian who can't figure out how to type. Tell me another one. Like the Harpocrates story, which has nothing whatsoever to do with Harpo Marx. Wahkeenah 02:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * But the valedictorian did explain why they were named after Harpocrates. They were silent. (Wikimachine 04:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Those "citations" are collections of uncited opinions and speculation, along with echo sites of this site. The Marx Brothers explained where their nicknames came from. Harpo's came from playing the harp. If you can find a cite where the Marx Brothers say anything about Harpocrates, then you've got something. Wahkeenah 02:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry. Taipei Times is reliable. Another source: . Ah... A reliable hard copy!.

(Wikimachine 04:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC))
 * The Marx Brothers have only ever said that it had to do with Harpo's skill with the harp. Any other assertions are fabrications. Your continued insistence on pushing this fairy tale must now be considered vandalism, and will be treated as such. Wahkeenah 04:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

And no it won't. There's clear difference between vandalism & different viewpoints & let me tell you, sir, that you've started this discussion on the wrong foot. No good faith. To assume that the edits were done in conspiracy by sock puppets, & to "considered vandalism" (ha!)... What authority do you have to "consider" another user's edit as vandalism outside the procedural bounds? You haven't even apologized yet. You know, this arrogance of yours is smothering me out of here. I don't even know who Harpo Marx is nor am I interested, so I'll quit on this article & detach it off of my watchlist. Pathetic. (Wikimachine 06:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC))
 * It has nothing to do with "viewpoints". The Marx family, in various media (such as Harpo's autobiography) always said that Harpo's name came strictly from his skill at playing the harp. There is no evidence they ever said anything different. I've pointed this out several times, and you ignore it, despite your own admission that you know nothing about Harpo Marx. Just because some blog writer or columnist makes the connection doesn't mean there's anything to it. You could add that info to the article if you say "coincidentally". To try to assert that it actually came from that Egyptian god's name is verifiably a falsehood. Wahkeenah 12:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The Egyptian god's name was Hor/Horus. Harpocrates was some Hellenistic development of him, but I have only seen the name used in the poetry of Catullus, that I can remember (I studied Hellenistic poetry as a post-grad, but I can't remember if he is mentioned or not). Silly coincidence, imo. In fact there's a page on him. Sorry if someone posted a link to it above. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpocrates Fuficius Fango (talk) 12:22, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Algonquin Round Table proposal at WikiProject Council/Proposals, please vote!

 * Description : The focus of the project would be articles relating to the Algonquin Round Table, including its members and their literary works.

 * Interested Wikipedians (please add your name)
 * 1) Otto4711 17:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Chris 06:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, a project of depth, thought and lasting impact! Most cool, I'm in! Chris 06:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comments

How many Nightingales?
From the Groucho Marx article: They were billing themselves as 'The Four Nightingales', Julius, Milton (Gummo Marx), Adolph (Harpo Marx) (later changed to Arthur), and another boy singer, Lou Levy...

From this article: In January 1910, Harpo joined two of his brothers, Julius (later "Groucho") and Milton, to form "The Three Nightingales". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.8.236.175 (talk) 19:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Harpo and Firesign Theater
At the end of Firesign Theater's third album, Don't Crush That Dwarf, Hand Me The Pliers (1970), considered (justly) by some to be the greatest English-language audio comedy album, the Everyman protagonist of the album, George Leroy Tirebiter, an elderly retired ex-actor, ex-director, ex-soldier, ex-student/spy, receives a wake-up call from his answering service (he replies, "that's alright, my dear, I've been up all night watching myself on the TV"). When he asks if there are any messages for him, the operator replies by reeling off a list of messages from persons clearly identifiable as important figures from the early era of movies, especially comedy movies: "Mr. Sennett...Mr. Keaton...Mr. Roach," etc. The receptionist also says "and from a Mr. Honk! Honk! Honk! [imitating the sound of a bicycle horn, which Harpo always carried in the pockets of his oversized jackets and used as another nonverbal means of emphatic communication]; he wouldn't leave his name." It's clearly a reference to Harpo. maccbMaccb (talk) 01:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Harpo Uses His Voice In A Night At The Opera
There's a scene in A Night At The Opera in which Harpo appears to play what looks and sounds like a kazoo. In order to play that instrument he had to use his voice. Worth a mention in the article? AncientBrit (talk) 11:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that he spoke a line in one of the last Marx Brothers film as a sort of marketing gimmick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.114.16 (talk) 21:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I've seen footage from a movie premier where he is interviewed by a reporter, the joke being the reporter asks a question and he says nothing. However, the camera did catch him prior to the interviewer asking the question saying "Are we ready?" or such. So while no in a film, he has spoken "on camera" another time. 203.35.82.133 (talk) 22:18, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Moscow
The source in the paragraph about Moscow seems to be somebody's class paper. Now, it does cite sources; shouldn't we just cite those reliable sources rather than the class paper? Yworo (talk) 19:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I've Got A Secret
The article mentions Harpo being on "I've Got A Secret." I saw a replay of the episode and what actually happened was that someone who looked exactly like Harpo came out, but the secret was "I'm not Harpo, I'm actually Chico." Can we fit that on here somehow? Or would it be better under Chico's page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbyknightmare (talk • contribs) 05:06, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Birthdate?
In his autobiography, Harpo writes:
 * Adolpho is the name I was given when I was born, in New York City, in 1893.

Yet most biographies of him state his birth as 1888, and his death at age 75. In fact, the biographical info on the inside title page of the very same book lists his dates as 1888–1964. (The book can be found online at Google Books, ch.2, p.17.) So what is his real birthdate? Should these edits be reverted? — Loadmaster (talk) 20:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Throughout his book "Harpo Speaks!" when he speaks of his age it all consistently works back to 1893. A good example is when he speaks of his friends having a 35th birthday party for him in 1928. Everything works back to 1893. It also seems logical for his birthday to have been 1893 and that the following is correct Chico - 1891 Harpo - 1893 Groucho - 1895 Gummo - 1897 and Zeppo - 1901. Otherwise there would be a big gap between the first three and the last two (if Gummo's is correct). Why would Harpo lie about his age throughout his book? Everywhere he's consistent in his age going back to 1893. Peter Jensen (talk) 22:18, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

No, it's well known that all the Marx Brothers were shaving five years off their ages by the time they got to Hollywood, and very well established that the correct birth years are 1887 (Chico), 1888 (Harpo), 1890 (Groucho), 1892 (Gummo) and 1901 (Zeppo). The fact that he's consistent throughout his book just means he did the math a few times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.39.141.5 (talk) 19:55, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Citation, please? Peaceray (talk) 00:29, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
 * His son claims that on his website, as found by User_talk:96.231.198.227. Ramaksoud2000 (Talk to me) 03:22, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Section: Legacy
The tone is that of a personal essay. Please help clean it up! Earendil56 (talk) 19:54, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

musicianship --nothing about
waaa. i wanted to find out if he played those instruments for real. also something about how he came to those instruments. didn't really see musical info. music's kind of a big deal with this character Cramyourspam (talk) 00:34, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

 * Someone needs to look at this question. You can find plenty of evidence that he played the harp - well to some people's ears - BUT that doesn't prove that he is actually the harpist on the soundtracks, although he may be. In fact, if you watch carefully, you'll see that sometimes he is playing a different arrangement from the one on the soundtrack. Fuficius Fango (talk) 15:05, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Glass blowers are special?
"The turn-of-the-century building [...] was populated with European immigrants, mostly artisans – which even included a glass blower." What is so peculiar about glass blowers that they deserve this special mentioning? Sure, it's a rare craft these days. But this goes for most artisans, and the sentence speaks about artisans in general before singling out glass blowers. What's so special about them? SchnitteUK (talk) 14:44, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

 * I'm pretty sure that, even then, glass bottles were mass-produced on machines. So a glass blower would make art pieces, ornaments. Some of them were very skilled indeed, I suppose you'd have to be, to be a success and charge decent prices. And since there was only one of him, "even a".

 * I don't suppose it NEEDS a special mention. But why not? Gives the sentence a bit of life. No good reason to get rid of it. Gives the article a bit of story, instead of just being a simple list of facts. Assuming it's true, then it's just a nice way of making it sound colourful.
 * 188.29.165.202 (talk) 15:55, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

speech
Because Harpo never spoke a word in all of his movies and TV appearances, many fans and other people believed he really was dumb. I have corrected this three times now; someone keeps changing the last word to mute for some reason, thus defeating the sense of the paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.93.58 (talk) 01:02, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

 * You did not give any explanation for the edit (until now). I changed it back for the reason I gave, which is that "dumb" no longer means "unable to speak" in the common vernacular; it now means "stupid".  How, exactly, does "mute" -- which is a far more appropriate descriptor in this context -- "defeat the sense of the paragraph"?   Also, please sign your posts in the future.  DoctorJoeE  review transgressions/ talk to me!  14:06, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Not hard to understand, really. Because his character was dumb/mute, some people assumed he really was dumb/stupid.  It is not unusual for people to confuse lack of speech with lack of intellect, and at the time Harpo was making movies it was even more common to make the association.  The sense of the paragraph comes from the association of the two meanings of "dumb".  Please don't allow a misguided sense of political correctness  to undermine the informative value of a statement.  The "common vernacular" of right now, is not relevent to the period of Harpo's professional activity.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.206.187.1 (talk) 07:44, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Filmography
I think we should add a filmography to this article. It seems arbitrary not to include one. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 05:54, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Harpo gives coffee to homeless man
Harpo gave a cup of coffee, which he pulled from his pocket, to a homeless man in Horse Feathers, not in A Night At The Opera. Avant678 (talk) 14:55, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Birthdate in autobiography
birthday = 1893, ref: his autobiography184.183.182.110 (talk) 12:02, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 17:11, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Harpo Marx. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130921055151/http://www.harpomarx.net/index.html to http://www.harpomarx.net/index.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121013165655/http://www.palmspringswalkofstars.com/web-storage/Stars/Stars%20dedicated%20by%20date.pdf to http://www.palmspringswalkofstars.com/web-storage/Stars/Stars%20dedicated%20by%20date.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 12:29, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Origin of the stage name
The explanation given doesn't make sense. He got the name at a card game because he played the harp? Was he playing background music for the game? Was he playing cards and there just happened to be a concert harp sitting in the corner that he went over an played after throwing in his hand? Harps are expensive, and were even back in vaudeville days -- where did he get the harp from?

Laater in that section: "but he could not have tuned it properly; if he had, the strings would have broken each night" -- makes no sense. If the instrument were tuned properly why would the strings be breaking "each night"? Professional harpists all over the world have been tuning the instrument properly for a hundred yeaaars and more, and they don't find themselves having to restring daily.

More (and better ) information on his harp playing is needed.
 * Hello, whoever you are. I agree that the tuning comment makes no sense, so, since it's unsourced, I took it out.  I will see what's said about the relation of harps to his stagename and see if I can find an RS for it later, hopefully today.  As for improved info about him playing harp, go nuts.  Anyone can edit, so, if you can source some more info, add it in!  I may look for that as well.  Suffice it to say, I recently did a lot of work on this article, and I think it's better for it.  I added lots of info as have numerous other editors, but there's plenty that should be added and fixed.  My suggestion is always that, if it's important to you, you should do the work instead of hoping someone else will.  If it's not that important to you, since Wikipedia is always being edited and expanded, someone will likely get to it soon.  Some users don't like fellow Wikipedians announcing what work needs doing rather than chipping in.  I used to do that a lot, though, especially in my early Wiki-days, so I see no harm - but I still encourage yourself to do it yourself - your input could be really helpful!  Fire Walk With Me 27♣ (talk) 23:12, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Pls fix typo
Hi All,

I was about to fix a typo in the "In other media section" (the "Harpo also took an interest in painting." paragraph). The typo is an extra character (f) at the end of the paragraph. When I deleted it & checked out the Preview of the altered paragraph, all the sources were re-numbered relative to that paragraph, so I decided not to save it. Could someone with slightly more Wiki editing experience pls fix it? Thanks. SaturnCat (talk) 14:44, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Hey there! I did tons of editing on this and I guarantee you I made that typo.  Thanks for spotting it and letting me/us know!  I'm still learning, but it appears that when you only edit a particular section, the notations get all wonky in the preview - perhaps it renumbers them, as they're the only citations visible in that preview.  When you edit the whole page's source, this doesn't seem to happen.  Regardless, I took the offending "f" the f out. ;)  Thanks again! Cheers.  Fire Walk With Me 27♣ (talk) 23:00, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Harpo Marx


text:
John Marshall High School (Los Angeles)

John Marshall High School is a public high school located in the Los Feliz district of the city of Los Angeles at 3939 Tracy Street in Los Angeles, California.

Marshall, which serves grades 9 through 12, is a part of the Los Angeles Unified School District. Marshall is named after jurist John Marshall, who served as the fourth Chief Justice of the United States for three decades.

Students at Marshall primarily come from Los Feliz, Atwater Village, East Hollywood, northeastern Koreatown, Elysian Valley, and Silver Lake.

Within the school, there are many Small Learning Communities, including the School for Environmental Studies, the school's only California Partnership Academy, the Performing Arts Academy, the Artistic Vision Academy, the STARS Academy, the Renaissance Academy, and the Social Justice Academy. The School also houses a School for Advanced Studies and a Gifted/High Ability Magnet.

Marshall has an enrollment of approximately 2,000 students and a teaching staff of approximately 100.

The school's mascot is the "Barrister." The school's service organization is the Continentals. A bust of John Marshall stands in the center of the Senior Court.

History
Designed by architect George M. Lindsey in the Collegiate Gothic style, and constructed in 1930, John Marshall High School first opened its doors on January 26, 1931, with approximately 1,200 students and 48 teachers. Joseph Sniffen, for whom the auditorium was named, served as the Principal, while Hugh Boyd and Geraldine Keith acted as Marshall's first Vice-Principals. The football field was named in Boyd's honor, while the library was named for Keith.

During the first semester of the school's existence, the faculty and students cooperatively selected the school motto, seal, and colors. The school motto, Veritas Vincit (Truth Conquers...), was an easy choice since this was a favorite sentiment of John Marshall. The school seal shows an open Book of Learning, behind which is projected the scales of justice with Veritas Vincit emblazoned on the bar. Two shades of blue became the official colors of the high school; the moonlight blue of midnight and the sunlight blue of dawn. Since the color blue is symbolic of truth, the choice of colors harmonized with the school's motto. John Montapert and Henry Suykida, two Marshall students who graduated in the Winter Class of 1939, composed "Alma Mater", the official school song.

It was in the Los Angeles City High School District until 1961, when it merged into LAUSD.

Following the Sylmar earthquake of 1971, some of Marshall's buildings were condemned. The cafeteria was torn down, but the Los Feliz community, led by "Citizens to Save Marshall" activists Joanne Gabrielson, Alberta Burke, Sherril Boller, and Nina Mohi tirelessly campaigned to save the unique Collegiate Gothic Main Building. In 1975, this building was closed for structural strengthening and all classes moved to temporary bungalows. In September 1980 the refurbished Main Building was opened. A new building now houses the library, cafeteria, and science classrooms. Mike Haynes Stadium, the school's football and track stadium, also dates to 1981.

In one basketball game in 1986 Jerry Simon, who that season was the Section 3-A Los Angeles City Player of the Year, scored 69 points for Marshall, establishing a new single-game scoring record for a high school player in Los Angeles, as the team won by a score of 98–61.

Notable alumni

 * Bob Arbogast, Los Angeles talk show host and Chicago disc jockey
 * Pete Arbogast, Hall of Fame sportscaster, longtime Voice of the USC Trojans
 * Michael D. Antonovich, member of Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors
 * apl.de.ap, vocalist, songwriter, producer and rapper for the Black Eyed Peas
 * Barry C. Barish, 2017 Nobel Prize winner in Physics
 * Karin Booth, film and television actress of the 1940s through 1960s
 * John Browning, two time Grammy-winning virtuoso pianist
 * Gabriel Chavarria, actor
 * Robert "Tree" Cody, Native American flutist
 * Lyor Cohen, former CEO of Warner Music Group (WMG)
 * Caryl Chessman, known as the "Red Light Bandit", was a cause celebre for the movement to ban capital punishment.
 * John Paul DeJoria, co-founder and CEO of John Paul Mitchell Systems and Patrón
 * Alexa Demie, singer, actor in Euphoria
 * Leonardo DiCaprio, actor, environmentalist
 * Heidi Fleiss, Hollywood madam
 * Ed Fredkin, computer scientist, physicist
 * Courtney Gains, actor
 * Lola Glaudini, actress
 * Robin Graham, missing person
 * Mike Haynes, NFL Hall of Fame cornerback
 * Eddie Hodges, actor
 * David Ho, physician and 1996 Time Person of the Year
 * Carolyn House, 1960 Olympic swimmer, world record holder
 * Will Hutchins, actor known as Tom "Sugarfoot" Brewster in 1950s Warner Bros. television series Sugarfoot
 * Lance Ito, Los Angeles Superior Court judge famous for the O.J. Simpson trial in 1995
 * Sick Jacken, rapper, writer, and producer for Psycho Realm
 * Anne-Marie Johnson, television actress and first National Vice President of the Screen Actors Guild
 * Alex Kozinski, Chief Judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit
 * Dan Kwong, performance artist and playwright (Be Like Water)
 * Tom LaBonge, member of the Los Angeles City Council (2001–2015)
 * Rosemary LaPlanche, Miss America 1941
 * Carol Lin, CNN broadcaster
 * Warren Miller (director), made over 750 films on skiing and other outdoor sports
 * Ronn Moss, songwriter and member of Player and actor (The Bold and the Beautiful, assorted films)
 * Julie Newmar, actress, known for her role as Catwoman in the television series Batman
 * Michelle Phillips, singer and member of the 1960s singing group The Mamas and the Papas
 * Andy Reid, three-time Super Bowl-Winning NFL head football coach, Kansas City Chiefs
 * Yesika Salgado, poet and co-founder of the poetry collective Chingona Fire
 * Joel Seligman, President of the University of Rochester
 * Jerry Simon (born 1968), American-Israeli basketball player; set LA single-game scoring record
 * Chris Tashima, actor and Academy Award-winning filmmaker (Visas and Virtue)
 * Bill Toomey, 1968 Olympic decathlon champion; taught at Marshall
 * Hal Uplinger, NBA player Baltimore Bullets 1947–1953, CBS sports and entertainment producer, first to use the instant replay technique still used in TV sportscasting
 * Bob Vickman, American pilot and also served as one of the first pilots in the Israeli Air Force. He died in defense of the newly reborn Jewish state
 * will.i.am, vocalist, producer and songwriter for the Black Eyed Peas
 * La Monte Young, composer

In popular culture

 * Shots of Marshall have been used for a variety of movies and television series, most notably Grease, La Bamba, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (film), Mr. Novak, Bachelor Party, Boy Meets World, The Wonder Years, Smart Guy, Kenan & Kel, Sister, Sister, Grosse Pointe Blank, A Nightmare on Elm Street, Can't Hardly Wait, Supernatural, Boston Public, The Suite Life of Zack & Cody, Cory in the House, Hannah Montana, Pretty in Pink, Good Burger, Zapped!, Like Father Like Son, Girls Just Want to Have Fun, Lucas Tanner, Amityville 4, Charlie Bartlett, Slaughterhouse Rock, Cirque du Freak, School of Rock, Home Room, iCarly, Hang Time, Who's the Boss?, True Crime, Amateur, Sierra Burgess Is a Loser, Space Jam, and Highway to Heaven.
 * An exterior of the school is shown during Miley Cyrus's Best of Both Worlds Tour during the song "Nobody's Perfect".
 * German automaker Audi used the school to film a new commercial, featuring its Audi Q5 crossover SUV.
 * The Pharcyde shot their video "Runnin'" both inside and outside the Collegiate Gothic Main Building.
 * American rock band Van Halen used the school to shoot the music video for "Hot for Teacher".
 * Logic (rapper) shot his video 1-800-273-8255 (song) around the high school campus, namely inside of the main building and on the football field.
 * Bebe Rexha "I'm Gonna Show You Crazy" music video incorporates the entrance of the high school and hallway.
 * Juice WRLD and Benny Blanco filmed "Graduation" around the campus, which featured stars such as Ross Butler, Madison Beer, and Dove Cameron.
 * Season 15, Episode 5 of Grey's Anatomy Betty's high school.

title: John Marshall High School (Los Angeles)


text:
Sonia Delaunay

Sonia Delaunay (14 November 1885 – 5 December 1979) was a French artist born to Jewish parents, who spent most of her working life in Paris. She was born in the Russian Empire, now Ukraine, and was formally trained in Russia and Germany, before moving to France and expanding her practice to include textile, fashion, and set design. She was part of the School of Paris and co-founded the Orphism art movement, noted for its use of strong colours and geometric shapes, with her husband Robert Delaunay and others. She was the first living female artist to have a retrospective exhibition at the Louvre in 1964, and in 1975 was named an officer of the French Legion of Honor.

Her work in modern design included the concepts of geometric abstraction, and the integration of furniture, fabrics, wall coverings, and clothing into her art practice.

Early life (1885–1904)

Sofia Ilinitchna Stern, or Sarah Elievna Stern was born youngest of three children on 14 November 1885 in Hradyzk, or in Odesa, both in Ukraine, then part of the Russian Empire, to poor Jewish parents. Her father was foreman of a nail factory. At five she was orphaned and moved to Saint Petersburg, Russian Empire (now Russia), where she was cared for by her mother's brother, Henri Terk. Henri, a successful and affluent lawyer, and his wife Anna wanted to adopt her but her mother would not allow it. Finally in 1890 she was adopted by the Terks. She assumed the name Sonia Terk and received a privileged upbringing with the Terks. They spent their summers in Finland and travelled widely in Europe, introducing Sonia to art museums and galleries. When she was 16, she attended a well-regarded secondary school in St. Petersburg, where her skill at drawing was noted by her teacher. When she was 18, at her teacher's suggestion, she was sent to art school in Germany where she attended the Academy of Fine Arts in Karlsruhe. She studied in Germany until 1905 and then moved to Paris.

Paris (1905–1910)
When she arrived in Paris she enrolled at the Académie de La Palette in Montparnasse. Unhappy with the mode of teaching, which she thought was too critical, she spent less time at the Académie and more time in galleries around Paris. Her own work during this period was strongly influenced by the art she was viewing including the post-impressionist art of Van Gogh, Gauguin and Henri Rousseau and the Fauves including Matisse and Derain. In 1908 she entered into a "marriage of convenience" with German art dealer and gallery owner Wilhelm Uhde, allowing her access to her dowery, and giving Uhde cover for his homosexuality. Sonia Terk gained entrance into the art world via exhibitions at Uhde's gallery and benefited from his connections.

Comtesse de Rose, mother of Robert Delaunay, was a regular visitor to Uhde's gallery, sometimes accompanied by her son. Sonia Terk met Robert Delaunay in early 1909. They became lovers in April of that year and it was decided that she and Uhde should divorce. The divorce was finalised in August 1910. Sonia was pregnant and she and Robert married on 15 November 1910. Their son Charles was born on 18 January 1911. They were supported by an allowance sent from Sonia's aunt in St. Petersburg.

Sonia said about Robert: "In Robert Delaunay I found a poet. A poet who wrote not with words but with colours".

Orphism (1911–1913)

In 1911, Sonia Delaunay made a patchwork quilt for Charles's crib, which is now in the collection of the Musée National d'Art Moderne in Paris. This quilt was created spontaneously and uses geometry and colour. "About 1911 I had the idea of making for my son, who had just been born, a blanket composed of bits of fabric like those I had seen in the houses of Ukrainian peasants. When it was finished, the arrangement of the pieces of material seemed to me to evoke cubist conceptions and we then tried to apply the same process to other objects and paintings." Sonia Delaunay Contemporary art critics recognize this as the point where she moved away from perspective and naturalism in her art. Around the same time, cubist works were being shown in Paris and Robert had been studying the colour theories of Michel Eugène Chevreul; they called their experiments with colour in art and design simultanéisme. Simultaneous design occurs when one design, when placed next to another, affects both; this is similar to the theory of colours (Pointillism, as used by e.g. Georges Seurat) in which primary colour dots placed next to each other are "mixed" by the eye and affect each other. Sonia's first large-scale painting in this style was Bal Bullier (1912–13), a painting known for both its use of colour and movement. Other works from this time include her series of paintings entitled Simultaneous Contrasts.

The Delaunays' friend, the poet and art critic Guillaume Apollinaire, coined the term Orphism to describe the Delaunays' version of Cubism in 1913. It was through Apollinaire that in 1912 Sonia met the poet Blaise Cendrars who was to become her friend and collaborator. Sonia Delaunay described in an interview that the discovery of Cendrars' work “gave me [her] a push, a shock.” She illustrated Cendrars' poem La prose du Transsibérien et de la Petite Jehanne de France (Prose of the Trans-Siberian and of Little Jehanne of France) about a journey on the Trans-Siberian Railway, by creating a 2m-long accordion-pleated book. Using simultaneous design principles the book merged text and design. The book, which was sold almost entirely by subscription, created a stir amongst Paris critics. The simultaneous book was later shown at the Autumn Salon in Berlin in 1913, along with paintings and other applied artworks such as dresses, and it is said that Paul Klee was so impressed with her use of squares in her binding of Cendrars' poem that they became an enduring feature in his own work.

Spanish and Portuguese years (1914–1920)
The Delaunays travelled to Spain in 1914, staying with friends in Madrid. At the outbreak of the First World War in 1914 Sonia and Robert were staying in Hondarribia, in the Basque Country, with their son still in Madrid. They decided not to return to France. In August 1915 they moved to Portugal, where they shared a home with Samuel Halpert and Eduardo Viana. They discussed an artistic partnership with Viana and their friends Amadeo de Souza-Cardoso, whom the Delaunays had already met in Paris, and José de Almada Negreiros. In Portugal she painted Marché au Minho (Market in Minho, 1916), which she later says was "inspired by the beauty of the country". Sonia had a solo exhibition in Stockholm (1916).

The Russian Revolution brought an end to the financial support Sonia received from her family in Russia, and a different source of income was needed. In 1917 the Delaunays met Sergei Diaghilev in Madrid. Sonia designed costumes for his production of Cleopatra (stage design by Robert Delaunay) and for the performance of Aida in Barcelona. In Madrid she decorated the Petit Casino (a nightclub) and founded Casa Sonia, selling her designs for interior decoration and fashion, with a branch in Bilbao. She was the center of a Madrid Salon.

Sonia Delaunay travelled to Paris twice in 1920 looking for opportunities in the fashion business, and in August she wrote a letter to Paul Poiret stating she wanted to expand her business and include some of his designs. Poiret declined, claiming she had copied designs from his Ateliers de Martine and was married to a French deserter (Robert). Galerie der Sturm in Berlin showed works by Sonia and Robert from their Portuguese period the same year.

Return to Paris (1921–1944)
Sonia, Robert and their son Charles returned to Paris permanently in 1921 and moved into Boulevard Malesherbes 19. The Delaunays' most acute financial problems were solved when they sold Henri Rousseau's La Charmeuse de serpents (The Snake Charmer) to Jacques Doucet. Sonia Delaunay made clothes for private clients and friends, and in 1923 created fifty fabric designs using geometrical shapes and bold colours, commissioned by a manufacturer from Lyon. Soon after, she started her own business and simultané became her registered trademark.

For the 1923 staging of Tristan Tzara's play Le Cœur à Gaz she designed the set and costumes. In 1924 she opened a fashion studio together with Jacques Heim. Her customers included Nancy Cunard, Gloria Swanson, Lucienne Bogaert and Gabrielle Dorziat.

With Heim she had a pavilion at the 1925 Exposition Internationale des Arts Décoratifs et Industriels Modernes, called boutique simultané. Sonia Delaunay gave a lecture at the Sorbonne on the influence of painting on fashion.

""

Sonia designed costumes for two films: Le Vertige directed by Marcel L'Herbier and Le p'tit Parigot, directed by René Le Somptier, and designed some furniture for the set of the 1929 film Parce que je t'aime (Because I love you). During this period, she also designed haute couture textiles for Robert Perrier, while participating actively in his artistic salon, R-26. The Great Depression caused a decline in business. After closing her business, Sonia Delaunay returned to painting, but she still designed for Jacques Heim, Metz & Co, Perrier and private clients. She said "the depression liberated her from business". 1935 the Delaunays moved to rue Saint-Simon 16.

By the end of 1934 Sonia was working on designs for the 1937 Exposition Internationale des Arts et Techniques dans la Vie Moderne, for which she and Robert worked together on decorating two pavilions: the Pavillon des Chemins de Fer and the Palais de l'Air. Sonia however did not want to be part of the contract for the commission, but chose to help Robert if she wanted. She said "I am free and mean to remain so." The murals and painted panels for the exhibition were executed by fifty artists including Albert Gleizes, Léopold Survage, Jacques Villon, Roger Bissière and Jean Crotti.

Robert Delaunay died of cancer in October 1941.

Later life (1945 – 1979)
After the second world war, Sonia was a board member of the Salon des Réalités Nouvelles for several years. Sonia and her son Charles in 1964 donated 114 works by Sonia and Robert to the Musée National d'Art Moderne. Alberto Magnelli told her "she and Braque were the only living painters to have been shown at the Louvre". In 1966 she published Rythmes-Couleurs (colour-rhythms), with 11 of her gouaches reproduced as pochoirs and texts by Jacques Damase, and in 1969 Robes poèmes (poem-dresses), also with texts by Jacques Damase containing 27 pochoirs. For Matra, she decorated a Matra 530. In 1975 Sonia was named an officer of the French Legion of Honor. From 1976 she developed a range of textiles, tableware and jewellery with French company Artcurial, inspired by her work from the 1920s. Her autobiography, Nous irons jusqu'au soleil (We shall go up to the sun) was published in 1978.

In 1967 (25 February – 5 April) she was a part of an exhibition of artist-decorated cars entitled 'Cinq voitures personnalisées par cinq artistes contemporains' ('Five Cars Personalized by Five Contemporary Artists') organized by the journal Réalités as a fundraiser for French medical research. She designed the pattern for a Matra 530 by experimenting with optical effects causing the car to recompose the pattern into a light blue shade when in motion 'so as not to attract other drivers' attention to the point of causing accidents through distraction.'

Sonia Delaunay died 5 December 1979, in Paris, aged 94. She was buried in Gambais, next to Robert Delaunay's grave.

Her son, Charles Delaunay, became an expert in jazz music during the 1930s. He was a jazz critic, organizer of jazz concerts and a founder of the Hot Club of France (the first jazz club in France) and the first editor of Jazz Hot Magazine, the club's official publication.

Legacy
Delaunay's painting Coccinelle was featured on a stamp jointly released by the French Post Office, La Poste and the United Kingdom's Royal Mail in 2004 to commemorate the centenary of the Entente Cordiale.

US fashion designer Perry Ellis devoted his fall 1984 collection to Delaunay, producing knits and prints in Delaunay colors and patterns.

Retrospectives
Aberbach Fine Art, 988 Madison Avenue, January - February 1974.

Sonia Delaunay was one of the artists presented in the retrospective group exhibition Dada is Dada at Bildmuseet, Umeå University, Sweden, running from 2017-11-17 to 2018-05-20.

title: Sonia Delaunay


text:
USS Galena

Three ships in the United States Navy have been named USS Galena. They were named for various communities that, in turn, were named for a native lead sulfide, the chief ore of lead. Cities, towns, and villages with the name exist in Kansas, Illinois, Maryland, Missouri, Ohio, and Alaska.

 * USS Galena (1862), was a steamship during the American Civil War.
 * USS Galena (1880), a steamship, was commissioned in 1880 and decommissioned in 1890.
 * USS Galena (PC-1136), a patrol boat, was commissioned in 1943 and decommissioned in 1946.

title: USS Galena


text:
Lea Rosh

Lea Rosh (born Edith Renate Ursula Rosh; 1 October 1936 ) is a German television journalist, publicist, entrepreneur and political activist. Rosh was the first female journalist to manage a public broadcasting service in Germany and in the 1970s the first anchorwoman of Kennzeichen D, a major political television program. She has been a member of the SPD since 1968.

Rosh has received major public awards (e.g. the Bundesverdienstkreuz), and is a controversial and influential figure in the local political scene of Berlin. The Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe in Berlin is seen as her main and personal achievement.

Background
Rosh was born in Berlin in 1936. Her mother's father was a Jewish court singer. Her father was killed in the winter of 1944 as a Wehrmacht soldier in Poland. At age 18 she left the Lutheran Church in Germany, she describes herself as an atheist. She began to use the first name Lea instead of her given name of Edith, describing the name Edith, which is of Old English origin, as "horribly German".

Rosh worked at various German radio and television services, including the Sender Freies Berlin and the ZDF. From 1991 to 1997 she was appointed director of the Hanover studio of the Norddeutscher Rundfunk (NDR), being the first woman to hold a comparable post in the history of German broadcasting.

Motivated by historian Eberhard Jäckel, she was one of the primary forces who lobbied from 1988 onwards for over 17 years for the construction of the widely controversial Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, completed in May 2005. She has been chairman of the Förderkreis zur Errichtung eines Denkmals für die ermordeten Juden Europas (Society for the Promotion of Raising a Monument to the Murdered Jews of Europe) since 1995, and vice chairman of the board of trustees of the Stiftung Denkmal für die ermordeten Juden Europas (Foundation for the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe) since 1999.

In 1990, Rosh and Eberhard Jäckel were awarded the Geschwister-Scholl-Preis for their joint work, Der Tod ist ein Meister aus Deutschland. In 2006, Rosh was awarded the Bundesverdienstkreuz.

Lea Rosh's husband died in 2008. The late Jakob Schulze-Rohr was an architect and building contractor in Berlin and a brother of the film director Peter Schulze-Rohr.

Since 2007 Lea Rosh has held a post as a lecturer at the University of Management and Communication (FH) Potsdam in the fields of Moderating and Media training.

Public debate
Michael Naumann first had opted against the Berlin Holocaust Monument and (similar to the less known Eike Geisel) had interpreted the attempts as a self finding process of the German bourgeoisie and a "hidden conclusion" (heimlicher Schlußstrich) of the Vergangenheitsbewältigung. While, according to Naumann, after 1871 the leading class in the German Empire manifested their historical views in raising retrospective monuments like the Hermannsdenkmal and Völkerschlachtdenkmal and joined in a controversial debate about the planned reconstruction of Heidelberg Castle, the Berlin Republic would use the debates around the Holocaust Monument and the reconstruction of Berliner Stadtschloss for a similar purpose with Lea Rosh being a leading figure in both cases.

According to Claus Leggewie, beyond a selbsttherapeutisches Lebenswerk (lit. self-therapeutic life's work) Rosh's monumental work resulted in a symbol of national identity of her generation as well the Berlin capital. Instead of reflection and insecurity in the face of (especially around Berlin) decaying authentic memorial sites, Rosh's initiative initiated a higher self-consciousness and pride of the "Commemorative World Champion" (Gedenkweltmeister) involved. Rosh's attempts however result in a possibly exclusive stance against Germans with a migration background which do not share the same history.

Controversies
When at the Holocaust monument's dedication on 10 May 2005, Rosh held up a molar tooth which she had retrieved from Belzec concentration camp in 1988, promising to place it in a column at the memorial, the act outraged several prominent German Jewish leaders, notably Paul Spiegel, the then chairman of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, who described the idea as "irreverent". Rosh withdrew her plan and returned the molar to Belzec concentration camp shortly after.

In 2003, Rosh was elected "most embarrassing Berlin woman of the year" (peinlichste Berlinerin) by the readers of Berlin city magazine Tip.

Claus Leggewie criticized her very strongly for "running over" (... überrollt hat) any resistance against "her" monument and for leaving all those who put forward "professionally, pedagogically and aesthetically sound arguments" against her monumental project bereft of nerves, voice, reputation and good faith.

The sociologist Y. Michal Bodemann has criticized Rosh as an example of "professional pseudo-Jews", that is non-Jews "who over-identify with Judaism."

title: Lea Rosh