text:
Talk:Independence Day (Israel)/Archive 1

ritual
The specific ritual involved in observance of this day is a matter of controversy. Some Religious Zionists have declared that Yom Ha-Atzmaut is one of the Jewish Holidays in which Hallel should be said. This view has, however, been rejected by the majority of Orthodox Jewish halachic decisors including members of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

The above is not totally accurate. After all, the Chief Rabbinate are the ones who said that one should say Hallel and I don't think the majority of Orthodox poskim said not to say Hallel. Most think Hallel should be said, some say without a blessing but I don't think you can say that a majority reject the practice of Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut.

Timing

 * April 24, 2007 (Tuesday)

This holiday is listed as on 23 April I understand that there's always some confusion what with jewish holidays starting at sun down and lasting until the next sun down. Which date is correct? I don't know, nor could I reliably check. -Kode 14:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

It starts on the eve of April 23, but most calendars will list it as April 24, as most other Jewish holidays, although it starts the prior evening. Amechad 20:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Not only that, but 2007 is only the second invocation of the "monday" clause, first instituted in 2004, which pushes it to tuesday if it lands on monday. All software written before 2004 and not updated would put it on April 23, instead of the correct April 24. -Vonfraginoff 06:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph is NOT confusing, but clarifying. I wish someone in my city had checked the 2004 law, as everyone here (6th largest US city) is celebrating israeli independence day on Monday 2007. It's possible that the calendar you have is incorrect.

An external link http://www.hebcal.com/news/2007/01/yom_haatzmaut_yom_hazikaron_2007.html quotes the wikipedia article, saying that the article explains the new dating.

Yom HaShoah
The article states: "These four new days [including Yom HaShoah] are not accepted as religious holidays by Hasidim and Haredim. These groups view these new days as Israeli national holidays." I don't think anyone views Yom HaShoah as anything Israeli considering it commemorates the Holocaust and has little to do with modern Israel.

 * Good point, but consider this: Yom HaShoah is officially recognized by the Israeli government. --Keeves 15:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Sure. So is every other Jewish holiday, which precede Israel by centuries and are perfectly recognized by religious groups. :) 38.112.113.242 15:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Okay, how's this idea: The question of the religious/Israeli status of Yom HaShoah does not belong on this page, which is only for Yom Ha'atzma'ut. Each of those 4 days has its own Wikipedia article, and that's where these questions should be discussed. Therefore, in a couple of minutes, I'm going to move links for the other three holidays down to the See Also section, and rename what's left of the "New Israeli/Jewish holidays" section as "Yom Ha'atzma'ut Observances". --Keeves 15:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Those changes have now been made, except that I did not add anything to the See Also section, since all those holidays are already included in the infobox at the very bottom of the article. --Keeves 16:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yom HaSHoah is Israeli because its date and celebrations were invented by Israel. Shia1 09:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Also on Yom HaShoah
This description from the article: "Yom HaShoah V'Hagevurah - Holocaust Remembrance day, on 27th of Nissan, commemorates the date of the uprising in Warsaw Ghetto in 1943", despite the initial translation, makes it sound like the purpose of the day is to commemorate the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which is obviously only one facet of the commemoration of the Holocaust itself. 38.112.113.242 15:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Spelling
Keeves, I agree with your last edit - that information did not belong. What do you think about moving the page to Yom Ha'atzmaut, without the second apostrophe. It's more accurate, since there is an /א/ there, not an /ע/, and more importantly, it's the most popular spelling on Google. Pending comment, I am prepared to move the page. --DLand TALK 16:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My personal preference would be to remove the first apostrophe, and to leave the second. My reason is that I prefer transliterations which bring a native English speaker to a close approximation of the correct pronunciation, over a scholarly mapping of Hebrew letters to English letters. In this case, I see the first apostrophe as optional, because an English speaker will tend to pronounce "haatz" and "ha'atz" the same way, as two syllables. But without the second apostrophe, an English speaker is likely to pronounce "maut" as a single syllable, to rhyme with "fought", whereas "ma'ut" forces the speaker to separate the syllables (though the pronunciation of the "u" will still likely be wrong). OTOH I can't argue with your Google results. Therefore, I suggest leaving it as is until others comment. --Keeves 23:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I just came upon this article again. It's been more than long enough without comment, so I'm going ahead with the move. With regard to your concern about the pronounciation, that's why we have the IPA pronounciation (sort of...) listed in the first sentence. --DLand TALK 18:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Fasting and sackcloth?
I am curious as to where the information comes for this. It seems possible that people would fast and wear sackcloth for the holiday that immediately precedes Yom Haatzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, the Rememberance Day that is a day of national mourning for those who died in Israel's wars, terrorist attacks, etc. Why would we harp on death on the next day too when we've already observed the mourning? Also, I haven't seen anyone mourning it but I have seen some angry Hassidim. Valley2city 18:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Your last line is the one closest to what that author was trying to say. You haven't seen them, but yes indeed, there are some who are so opposed to the existence of the State that they do indeed recite various prayers of mourning on this day. I'll try to rewite that paragraph to make it clearer. --Keeves 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I doubt this is true. Hebrew wikipedia doesn't mention it but just the demonstration of extreme group like neturei karta and angry articles from certain haredi papers. Never heard of this mourning, and I doubt it happens or noteable enough. Amoruso 02:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it's true. On Yom HaAtzmaut, Neturei Karta'niks will wear ashes and sackcolth and fly either black or Palestinian flags or both. Satmer, Bobov, Munkatch, Chasam Soferniks, and pretty much the run of Hasidic and Hungarian anti-zionist Jewry holds it a fast day. SOme will fly black flags from their houses. Given the size of Satmar and Bobov, it basically means nearly 1/4 of all Sabbath keaping Jews hold YOm HaAtzmaut a day of mourning. These groups do not recognize Yom Zikaron, and will make a point of going about their bussiness when the siren blows, as do many Litvishik anti-ZIonists. Shia1 09:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

 * All I can say is that last year I was in Israel and on Yom Haatzmaut the haredim blocked the streets and burned trash cans. We joked that they were building huge Yahrzeit candles for Yom Hazikaron. I guess, just as the observances of the holiday are still developing, so are the methods of protesting it. Chag Sameach. --   Valley   2   city   ₪‽ 16:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Title of article
As this is the English language Wikipedia the article should use the English name, "Israeli Independence Day" or something similar. I propose moving. PatGallacher 21:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason that the title of the article is transliterated from the Hebrew name is that "Yom Ha'atzmaut" is a more commonly used term than any other, including "Israeli Independence Day". --DLand TALK 22:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * More commonly used in the English-speaking countries? I doubt it. PatGallacher 22:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Check Google and see for yourself. --DLand TALK 23:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I found the article by looking for it under Israeli Independence Day" as figuring out how to transliterate Yom HaAtzmaut, was difficult. Shia1 14:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Holy Day?
This is an Israeli holiday, not a Jewish one. It seems to be miscategorized, but I'm hesitant to remove the category in case there's a good reason. Oren0 01:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

You are 100% correct, but given the desire to use Wikipedia for hasbarah, if you changed it, it would be reverted back with arguements that they are one and the same. YOu would then get into an arguement about what counts as "Jewish," something Jews do, or something that's part of Judaism. You would then get in an arguement about what is Judaism. You could also point out that it is actually forbidden to "Celebrate" anything during this time period on the Jewish calendar, as it is during the Omer. But you would be shouted down by 90 people. Shia1 14:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It isn't fair to use Wikipedia for hasbarah, and Wikipedia is not the right place for arguements unless they relate to Wikipedia per se; please adhere to writing factual, neutral and verifiable (preferbly backed up with citation) information. --AvihooI 03:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but nevertheless, it is used that way, and it is going to be impossible to stop people from using it that way since 90% of the people interested in Jewish topics are Jews, and 90% of Jews are Zionist, and 90% of Zionists think it is appropriate to engage in Hasbara. (see article on Hasbara). For an interesting example, notice how the snipppet detailing anti-Zionist Jews way of marking the 5th of Iyar, which used to be the only piece of this article siting a source, has been sabotaged to lead to a Hasbarah website instead of to the title of the article it came from. 88.152.134.66 15:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Where do you get the statistics from?; I am Israeli, Jewish and Zionist, I do not find it necessary to have pro-Israeli material on an encyclopedia and especially one like Wikipedia. I think a biased information may even prove to be counter-productive: I insist that the articles be corrected for facts in order to fit the actual reality and if it's not going to, I'll have to involve higher authorities in Wikipedia. --AvihooI 07:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Arab citizens of Israel do not celebrate the day?
Such a broad generalization with no citation does not belong in the article. There are not only Muslim Arabs in Israel, but also Bedouin, Druze, and Christian Arabs. While Muslims may not celebrate Yom Ha'atzmaut, other Israeli Arabs most certainly do. The article on Arab citizens of Israel is a good reference in this issue.

It is my understanding that Christian Palestinians do not like Israel just as much as Muslim Palestinians do not like Israel, though their idea of proper resitence may be different. (The same could, by the way, be said for Jewish Palestinians.) THe article on Arab citizens of Israel mentions that though nearly 10% of Palestinians are Christian, only a dozen or so serve in the army. The rest do not want to betray the Arab world or Palestine. Do you have a source for Christian Palestinians celebrating the day in any greater numbers than Muslims? Or for bedoines? I'll leave this up for a few days for a response, then I'm deleting that bit of hasbarah as unsourced. 82.81.104.93 18:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Jewish palestinians?

you mean thoose 100+ Hyper-orthodox (for a lack of higher term then ultra) jews who live in east jerusalem, britain and the US who deny the holocaust? They view "palestinians"(arabs, etc) like the taliban views women.

Page move
I have moved this article to Independence Day (Israel) based on WP:COMMONNAME used in the English language media in Israel. For illustration, combining Haaretz, Jerusalem Post and Ynet, the totals are: Number  5  7  13:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yom Haatzmaut: 6 + 2 + 29 = 37
 * Independence Day: 1,060 + 774 + 469 = 2,303
 * You're move of this page is bold, and also disruptive. --Shuki 17:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Shuki. LordAmeth 18:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I also agree with Shuki. Please talk about it here first before moving things.  --GHcool 19:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm also with Shuki. "Independence Day" may be used on the English-language websites of Israeli newspapers, but who is their intended audience? Perhaps people who aren't familiar with the Hebrew name? People who aren't familiar with Israeli holidays? Among people who are familiar with Israel, the name "Yom Ha'atzmaut" is much more common — even among English-speakers who may not know much Hebrew (in the United States, for example). — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 19:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Firstly "Be Bold" is a Wikipedia guideline, as is WP:COMMONNAME. The evidence in favour of the English is overwhelming. Having lived in Israel for several years, no-one ever used Yom Haatzma'ut when speaking to me in English; only in Hebrew. Number   5  7  08:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry that was your experience. My multinational company advises foreigners at our office in April/May that Yom Hashoah, Hazikaron and Haatzmaut are holidays. --Shuki 16:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't be sorry, it makes life much easier if people are consistent. The multinational company I worked for used the English names! Number   5  7  16:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Haftarah
I added to the bullet point for the Conservative practice this text: "Some places also read the haftarah normally read on the last day of Pesach." Is this tradition observed in other branches also? And I just realized I have access to the selection; I'll revise my text to state the actual verses. A More Perfect Onion (talk) 13:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Spelling
Keeves, I agree with your last edit - that information did not belong. What do you think about moving the page to Yom Ha'atzmaut, without the second apostrophe. It's more accurate, since there is an /א/ there, not an /ע/, and more importantly, it's the most popular spelling on Google. Pending comment, I am prepared to move the page. --DLand TALK 16:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My personal preference would be to remove the first apostrophe, and to leave the second. My reason is that I prefer transliterations which bring a native English speaker to a close approximation of the correct pronunciation, over a scholarly mapping of Hebrew letters to English letters. In this case, I see the first apostrophe as optional, because an English speaker will tend to pronounce "haatz" and "ha'atz" the same way, as two syllables. But without the second apostrophe, an English speaker is likely to pronounce "maut" as a single syllable, to rhyme with "fought", whereas "ma'ut" forces the speaker to separate the syllables (though the pronunciation of the "u" will still likely be wrong). OTOH I can't argue with your Google results. Therefore, I suggest leaving it as is until others comment. --Keeves 23:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I just came upon this article again. It's been more than long enough without comment, so I'm going ahead with the move. With regard to your concern about the pronounciation, that's why we have the IPA pronounciation (sort of...) listed in the first sentence. --DLand TALK 18:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Title of article
As this is the English language Wikipedia the article should use the English name, "Israeli Independence Day" or something similar. I propose moving. PatGallacher 21:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason that the title of the article is transliterated from the Hebrew name is that "Yom Ha'atzmaut" is a more commonly used term than any other, including "Israeli Independence Day". --DLand TALK 22:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * More commonly used in the English-speaking countries? I doubt it. PatGallacher 22:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Check Google and see for yourself. --DLand TALK 23:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I found the article by looking for it under Israeli Independence Day" as figuring out how to transliterate Yom HaAtzmaut, was difficult. Shia1 14:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Fasting and sackcloth?
I am curious as to where the information comes for this. It seems possible that people would fast and wear sackcloth for the holiday that immediately precedes Yom Haatzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, the Rememberance Day that is a day of national mourning for those who died in Israel's wars, terrorist attacks, etc. Why would we harp on death on the next day too when we've already observed the mourning? Also, I haven't seen anyone mourning it but I have seen some angry Hassidim. Valley2city 18:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Your last line is the one closest to what that author was trying to say. You haven't seen them, but yes indeed, there are some who are so opposed to the existence of the State that they do indeed recite various prayers of mourning on this day. I'll try to rewite that paragraph to make it clearer. --Keeves 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I doubt this is true. Hebrew wikipedia doesn't mention it but just the demonstration of extreme group like neturei karta and angry articles from certain haredi papers. Never heard of this mourning, and I doubt it happens or noteable enough. Amoruso 02:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it's true. On Yom HaAtzmaut, Neturei Karta'niks will wear ashes and sackcolth and fly either black or Palestinian flags or both. Satmer, Bobov, Munkatch, Chasam Soferniks, and pretty much the run of Hasidic and Hungarian anti-zionist Jewry holds it a fast day. SOme will fly black flags from their houses. Given the size of Satmar and Bobov, it basically means nearly 1/4 of all Sabbath keaping Jews hold YOm HaAtzmaut a day of mourning. These groups do not recognize Yom Zikaron, and will make a point of going about their bussiness when the siren blows, as do many Litvishik anti-ZIonists. Shia1 09:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

 * All I can say is that last year I was in Israel and on Yom Haatzmaut the haredim blocked the streets and burned trash cans. We joked that they were building huge Yahrzeit candles for Yom Hazikaron. I guess, just as the observances of the holiday are still developing, so are the methods of protesting it. Chag Sameach. --   Valley   2   city   ₪‽ 16:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Arab citizens of Israel do not celebrate the day?
Such a broad generalization with no citation does not belong in the article. There are not only Muslim Arabs in Israel, but also Bedouin, Druze, and Christian Arabs. While Muslims may not celebrate Yom Ha'atzmaut, other Israeli Arabs most certainly do. The article on Arab citizens of Israel is a good reference in this issue.

It is my understanding that Christian Palestinians do not like Israel just as much as Muslim Palestinians do not like Israel, though their idea of proper resitence may be different. (The same could, by the way, be said for Jewish Palestinians.) THe article on Arab citizens of Israel mentions that though nearly 10% of Palestinians are Christian, only a dozen or so serve in the army. The rest do not want to betray the Arab world or Palestine. Do you have a source for Christian Palestinians celebrating the day in any greater numbers than Muslims? Or for bedoines? I'll leave this up for a few days for a response, then I'm deleting that bit of hasbarah as unsourced. 82.81.104.93 18:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Jewish palestinians?

you mean thoose 100+ Hyper-orthodox (for a lack of higher term then ultra) jews who live in east jerusalem, britain and the US who deny the holocaust? They view "palestinians"(arabs, etc) like the taliban views women.

Page move
I have moved this article to Independence Day (Israel) based on WP:COMMONNAME used in the English language media in Israel. For illustration, combining Haaretz, Jerusalem Post and Ynet, the totals are: Number  5  7  13:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yom Haatzmaut: 6 + 2 + 29 = 37
 * Independence Day: 1,060 + 774 + 469 = 2,303
 * You're move of this page is bold, and also disruptive. --Shuki 17:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Shuki. LordAmeth 18:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I also agree with Shuki. Please talk about it here first before moving things.  --GHcool 19:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm also with Shuki. "Independence Day" may be used on the English-language websites of Israeli newspapers, but who is their intended audience? Perhaps people who aren't familiar with the Hebrew name? People who aren't familiar with Israeli holidays? Among people who are familiar with Israel, the name "Yom Ha'atzmaut" is much more common — even among English-speakers who may not know much Hebrew (in the United States, for example). — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 19:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Firstly "Be Bold" is a Wikipedia guideline, as is WP:COMMONNAME. The evidence in favour of the English is overwhelming. Having lived in Israel for several years, no-one ever used Yom Haatzma'ut when speaking to me in English; only in Hebrew. Number   5  7  08:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry that was your experience. My multinational company advises foreigners at our office in April/May that Yom Hashoah, Hazikaron and Haatzmaut are holidays. --Shuki 16:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't be sorry, it makes life much easier if people are consistent. The multinational company I worked for used the English names! Number   5  7  16:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Move
do not move. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 12:50, 26 June 2009 (UTC) Yom Ha& → Israel Independence Day — As this is the English wiki, the name should be in English. Thoughts anyone? Philly jawn (talk) 20:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Oppose. I WP:AGF that you missed the previous discussion about this from two years ago that you just archived. The talk page is not that long and contains previous discussion. I don't see a justification to archive it at this time. Pleae see Talk:Yom_Hazikaron and Talk:Yom_HaShoah. --Shuki (talk) 20:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose'. This the most widely used term.--Gilabrand (talk) 05:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Oppose. Either name is acceptable, but the Hebrew name is the more common term in English.  for some Google searches. Andrewa (talk) 09:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose the common usage is Yom Haatzmaut, even amongst English speakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yossiea (talk • contribs)
 * Agree for the English speaker the term "Israeli Independence Day" is clearer. Yom Ha'atzmaut is not a name like Hanukkah or Purim, but more of a description of the day, so it can be translated. DrorK (talk) 08:02, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Haftarah
I added to the bullet point for the Conservative practice this text: "Some places also read the haftarah normally read on the last day of Pesach." Is this tradition observed in other branches also? And I just realized I have access to the selection; I'll revise my text to state the actual verses. A More Perfect Onion (talk) 13:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I have changed "places" to "Conservative Synagogues" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricardianman (talk • contribs) 18:49, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

ritual
The specific ritual involved in observance of this day is a matter of controversy. Some Religious Zionists have declared that Yom Ha-Atzmaut is one of the Jewish Holidays in which Hallel should be said. This view has, however, been rejected by the majority of Orthodox Jewish halachic decisors including members of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

The above is not totally accurate. After all, the Chief Rabbinate are the ones who said that one should say Hallel and I don't think the majority of Orthodox poskim said not to say Hallel. Most think Hallel should be said, some say without a blessing but I don't think you can say that a majority reject the practice of Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut.

 * Both don't really matter, since this is a non-religious holiday. Israguy (talk) 08:47, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Yom HaShoah
The article states: "These four new days [including Yom HaShoah] are not accepted as religious holidays by Hasidim and Haredim. These groups view these new days as Israeli national holidays." I don't think anyone views Yom HaShoah as anything Israeli considering it commemorates the Holocaust and has little to do with modern Israel.

 * Good point, but consider this: Yom HaShoah is officially recognized by the Israeli government. --Keeves 15:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Sure. So is every other Jewish holiday, which precede Israel by centuries and are perfectly recognized by religious groups. :) 38.112.113.242 15:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Okay, how's this idea: The question of the religious/Israeli status of Yom HaShoah does not belong on this page, which is only for Yom Ha'atzma'ut. Each of those 4 days has its own Wikipedia article, and that's where these questions should be discussed. Therefore, in a couple of minutes, I'm going to move links for the other three holidays down to the See Also section, and rename what's left of the "New Israeli/Jewish holidays" section as "Yom Ha'atzma'ut Observances". --Keeves 15:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Those changes have now been made, except that I did not add anything to the See Also section, since all those holidays are already included in the infobox at the very bottom of the article. --Keeves 16:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yom HaSHoah is Israeli because its date and celebrations were invented by Israel. Shia1 09:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Not to dispute anything here, but to illuminate: Israel (the country) celebrates a number of official national holidays. Most of them are also recognized by religious Jews as Jewish religious holy days (Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, just as Christmas is celebrated in Western countries). However, there are some "modern" state holidays that don't get accepted by religious Jews as holidays because they are not religious holidays. It raises the interesting question that if the Hebrew Bible is a history of the Jews, then when are they going to add the part up till the Holocaust? I think I heard that there are some Christian denominations in the US that don't accept Thanksgiving as a holiday. 71.190.66.244 (talk) 00:31, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Yom HaShoah is a modern non-religious holiday, established by Israeli law. Its date and customs are set by Israeli law. Jews around the world can mention this day, if they like, but they are not religiousy obligated to. Israguy (talk) 08:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Also on Yom HaShoah
This description from the article: "Yom HaShoah V'Hagevurah - Holocaust Remembrance day, on 27th of Nissan, commemorates the date of the uprising in Warsaw Ghetto in 1943", despite the initial translation, makes it sound like the purpose of the day is to commemorate the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which is obviously only one facet of the commemoration of the Holocaust itself. 38.112.113.242 15:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

 * There is a "Gevurah" part to this day: remembering the bravery of the few who did rise up to the germans. Israguy (talk) 08:55, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Why is Nakba Day a related article?
It seems as though this insertion is an attempt to delegitimize the holiday (as is the principle of nakba). It should not be included in the Related articles, for the same reason that Anti-Americanism should not be a related page of Independence Day (United States) - it is subversive and detracts from the neutral nature of the article. Arielkoiman (talk) 19:54, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

 * I have removed the link to the Nakba from the 'See also' section, since there is already a link to it from the article itself. Israguy (talk) 07:13, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Nakba Day is a related article because the subject of that article is a related subject. Both days are intended to commemorate the same event (though they express different attitudes about it): the creation of Israel as an independent state.  However, it doesn't need to be in the "see also" section because it is already linked in the article body.
 * Just a friendly reminder - neutrality means including dissenting viewpoints if they are notable, regardless of your personal opinions about them. You might want to check out WP:NPV for a more detailed description of this policy.  138.16.10.21 (talk) 00:45, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Jewish Holy Day?
This is an Israeli holiday, not a Jewish one. It seems to be miscategorized, but I'm hesitant to remove the category in case there's a good reason. Oren0 01:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC) You are 100% correct, but given the desire to use Wikipedia for hasbarah, if you changed it, it would be reverted back with arguements that they are one and the same. YOu would then get into an arguement about what counts as "Jewish," something Jews do, or something that's part of Judaism. You would then get in an arguement about what is Judaism. You could also point out that it is actually forbidden to "Celebrate" anything during this time period on the Jewish calendar, as it is during the Omer. But you would be shouted down by 90 people. Shia1 14:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC) It is allowed to celebrate Lag B'omer in the omer, because, its a chag. To those who consider Yom Haatzmaut a Chag, it is likewise permissible to celebrate it - and, BTW, to get your hair cut, to have a wedding, etc. Thats the point. Ricardianman (talk) 21:29, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

It isn't fair to use Wikipedia for hasbarah, and Wikipedia is not the right place for arguements unless they relate to Wikipedia per se; please adhere to writing factual, neutral and verifiable (preferbly backed up with citation) information. --AvihooI 03:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but nevertheless, it is used that way, and it is going to be impossible to stop people from using it that way since 90% of the people interested in Jewish topics are Jews, and 90% of Jews are Zionist, and 90% of Zionists think it is appropriate to engage in Hasbara. (see article on Hasbara). For an interesting example, notice how the snipppet detailing anti-Zionist Jews way of marking the 5th of Iyar, which used to be the only piece of this article siting a source, has been sabotaged to lead to a Hasbarah website instead of to the title of the article it came from. 88.152.134.66 15:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Where do you get the statistics from?; I am Israeli, Jewish and Zionist, I do not find it necessary to have pro-Israeli material on an encyclopedia and especially one like Wikipedia. I think a biased information may even prove to be counter-productive: I insist that the articles be corrected for facts in order to fit the actual reality and if it's not going to, I'll have to involve higher authorities in Wikipedia. --AvihooI 07:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

In fact as is discussed in the article, Yom Ha'atzmaut IS treated as a religious holiday by many diaspora Jews - possibly the majority of Orthodox Jews in the diaspora, certainly the majority of Conservative Jews, and at least many Reform Jews. Therefor it is properly listed as Jewish religious holiday. Ricardianman (talk) 17:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It is a holiday that many Jews (and other non-Jews, including non-Jewish Israelis) celebrate, and some have attributed it with religiouis significance - but not a "Jewish" holiday. They are not the same. It is a national holiday. Jewish holidays appear in the Torah and Talmud and the texts of Jewish religious law. Israeli Independance day is a secular holiday. Just cause lots of Jews do something doesn't necessarily make it Jewish. Would one call sweet red wine a "Jewish" beverage just cause lots of Jews santify Shabbat with it? Chesdovi (talk) 10:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

as you say, Jewish holiday are discussed in texts of Jewish religious law. there are many discussions of the halachic status of the Yom hatzmaut https://www.google.com/#q=halacha+yom+haatzmaut Those discussions ARE texts of Jewish religious law - which did not stop with Talmud. If it did, then Simchat Torah would not be a Jewish Holiday. Passover and Hanukkah, BTW, have secular meanings in Israel (and even for a few diaspora Jews) (and those secular meanings may be closer to the original meanings than the religious meaningns are.) That Yom HaAtzmaut is primarily a secular Israeli holiday, does not mean it is not also a Jewish Holiday, in the meaning that has in Jewish law. As for whether sweet red wine is a "Jewish Bevegerage" I do not beleive there is, either in Jewish law, or in common English usage, such a thing as a Jewish beverage, in the same sense that there is a Jewish holiday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricardianman (talk • contribs) 21:26, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess it all boils down to Who is a Jew, or in this case: What is Judaism? In my mind, it would be a total travesty to believe that the State of Israel has been anything but a catastrophe for Judaism. Its establishment was carried out in violation of Jewish law and against the will of the majority of rabbis. Its institutions have consistently endeavoured to diminish the role of Jewish law in society, hoping to replace the Jewish faith with secular Hebrew nationalism devoid of God and the Torah. And it has been tremendously successful in doing so. Had it not been for the demands and political clout of the so reviled ultra-Orthodox, there would not be much left of the Jewish state. Rather a State for Jews is what would exist - what its founders had aspired for. Are we to celebrate its independence as something related to Judaism? The religious Jews who imbue Israel with religious significance have merely fallen victim to Zionist idolatry. Chesdovi (talk) 13:55, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

The point of a wiki article talk page is to discuss the article not side topics. The majority of modern Orthodox jews, and virtually all Conservative and Reform Jews, consider Yom Haatzmaut a religious holiday. You may not agree with their halachic approach, and may not count their rabbis in determining majorities, but its not useful for wikipedia as an encylopedia to enshrine the haredi view of halacha and Judaism, when that is not shared by a majority of Jews. Your view of the halachic ilicitness of the establishment of Israel is reject by almost all non-haredi authorities, and your statements about its diminishing the role of Jewish law in society is demonstrably false (at least compared to any reasonable counter factual). As is your understanding of the Israeli religiou politics - the role of Judaism in the state, including kosher food in the army, the existence of chesder yeshivas, etc, is much more the result of activism by Dati Leumi than by the haredim. As for your last sentence, thats merely an ad hominem, no more worthy of a wiki discussion than the assertion that haredim treat their gedolim in an idolatrous fashion. Ricardianman (talk) 20:33, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
 * And which authorities permit the shedding of Jewish (and gentile for that matter) blood to enable the founding of a state where Jews are able rule themselves? None, I would hope. And with the latest anti-Jewish law passed by the Knesset which will see state-funds made available to allow thousands of abortions for non-medical reasons, the murder will continue. Very Jewish indeed. God has His reasons for the continued existence of the accursed State of Israel, just as He had His reason for the bestial Nazi murder of 6 million of His children. But human intellect would suggest the difference between the two is that in the Holocaust, Jews were killed for being Jews – through their deaths, the Holocaust martyrs sanctified the name of God. But today, Jews are killed around the world because of the secular Zionist enterprise. Jews are targeted not because they are Jews, but because they are automatically identified with Zionists. And it was the Zionist founding fathers who despised religion and God who provoked the nations against "us" by thrusting Israel on to Arab land. I can think of no worse desecration of God’s name - being killed in the name of Zionism. And this sin Jews wish to sanctify and celebrate?  A Jew is obliged to give up his life in order not to commit one of the three cardinal sins. "Israel" is not the fourth. That so many religious Jews have been intoxicated with the forbidden wine of Hebrew nationalism is just too bad. Chesdovi (talk) 14:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

You continue to use the talk page to advocate for the haredi POV, not to discuss the article, in violation of Wiki rules. All authorities allow the shedding of blood for self defence, and the shedding of blood in Israel is exactly that. Shedding blood when you are attacked in Tel Aviv is no different, halachically then shedding blood when you attacked in the Ukraine. That is not the essence of the halachic disagreement on Zionism, which is about the entry into the land en masse. And that is something on which halachic authorities disagree - with almost all modern O authorities (as well as I think all C authorities) accepting that there is no halachic ban on entering see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Oaths#Modern_era

So it all boils down, as you said, to what is Judaism. Here is what it is per wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism it is clearly much broader than haredi Judaism. Indeed Orthodox Judaism is broader than Haredi Judaism. It is therefore incorrect to say that, within Judaism, Yom Ha'atzmaut is not a chag because haredim say it is not. And your listing of whatever you don't like about Israel, or about non-Haredi Judaism will not change that. Do you think Israel has caused anti-semitism? It can be said with equal truth that haredi extremism, in particular disrespect for both secular law and for common mores and rules of courtesy, in the diaspora, have created antisemitism. I would strong requet that you keep to the rules and customs of wikipedia when acting as a wiki editor. Ricardianman (talk) 21:16, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Pruning a section
I have pruned a part of the Arab reactions sections, because that section was about reactions to some Arab reactions and reactions to _those_ reactions and the related court proceedings. Wiki already has an article on that subject which is linked in the text, so there's no justification to giving over 10 percent (2,517 / 17,706 = 14.2%) of this article for a complete coverage. This makes as much sense as entering a long discussion of the SCOTUS cases over flag burning into the Flag of the United States article and reactions to the outcome and so on. If anyone wishes to make a more prominent link that would be fine with me, but the previous section was simply WP:REDUNDANTFORK bordering on WP:UNDUE IMHO.79.179.99.186 (talk) 20:17, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

NPOV violation
The statement "in Israel's capital city Jerusalem" is an NPOV violation. As I said in my edit summary "it is an NPOV violation to employ Wikipedia's unattributed neutral narrative voice to describe Jerusalem as Israel's capital". There can't be a valid WP:CONSENSUS for a a statement that violates policy. This issue has been discussed extensively at Requests_for_comment/Jerusalem. There are many ways to rewrite the statement in such a way that it does not misuse Wikipedia's unattributed neutral narrative voice. The policy violation will be corrected in due course. Its correction is simply inevitable.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 15:30, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * BTW, if you are going to continue to edit, you should remove the RETIRED template. I recall reading a few months back that it is a violation to continue to edit while having that template. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:06, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to describe it as the seat of government rather than the capital. Hope this is okay. —  Cliftonian   (talk)  16:42, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 11 May 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved — Amakuru (talk) 20:49, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Yom Ha'atzmaut → Independence Day (Israel) – Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:09, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello, nine years later!
 * Actually, this really should be at Independence Day (Israel), like most other pages in Category:Independence days. I love the Hebrew language, but this is the English Wikipedia, and the English name is used in English-language sources: BBC, YnetNews, Israel Prime Minister office, and so on.
 * The other discussion further down up on this page says that "Yom Haatzmaut" is "more widely used" with Google searches as a source, but it's not actually an acceptable source. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:09, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

 * I agree with Amir. The English name makes more sense .שלומית קדם (talk) 09:10, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

 * Procedural note. I refactored this page to make clear that this RM takes place in 2016. Reviving old threads is OK (although 9 years is a bit too much), but please do not rescope them for an entirely different purpose. This page is short enough that other editors can easily find old debates about the title. No such user (talk) 09:04, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks No such user, no problem. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:39, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * If LordAmeth and Shuki are still active maby they should explain why they think that although this is wikipedia in english the name chosen should be the name common among hebrew speakers and not the common english name. melo kol haaretz kevodi (talk) 12:14, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose the COMMON name for this is YH, even in English. If you're searching for ID, then we can use a redirect, but the name of the article should be what it is most commonly called, like Bastille Day. Sir Joseph (talk) 23:23, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Support per AEA and שלומית קדם, no real evidence is offered that YH is known as a term by those with no knowledge of Hebrew. Bastille day and 4th of July are the only 'national days', widely known in the English-speaking world that I can think of.Pincrete (talk) 18:12, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:USEENGLISH, pending actual evidence that the transliterated Hebrew is demonstrably the WP:COMMONNAME in independent, mainstream, English-language reliable sources. We'd expect something like that transliteration in Jewish studies journals and the like, but not in the Los Angeles Times or the Reuters newswire, or a books on holidays, except as a secondary listing after the English, I'd bet.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  08:01, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:UE. It's the common name even in the Israeli press. See, for example:
 * Haaretz: 107 for Yom Ha'atzmaut, >25,000 for Independence Day
 * Jerusalem Post: 5,300 for Yom Ha'atzmaut, 58,900 for Independence Day
 * Times of Israel: 15,600 for Yom Ha'atzmaut, 44,900 for Independence Day
 * Ynetnews: 70 for Yom Ha'atzmaut, 1,280 for Independence Day
 * Number  5  7  10:28, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Timing

 * April 24, 2007 (Tuesday)

This holiday is listed as on 23 April I understand that there's always some confusion what with jewish holidays starting at sun down and lasting until the next sun down. Which date is correct? I don't know, nor could I reliably check. -Kode 14:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

It starts on the eve of April 23, but most calendars will list it as April 24, as most other Jewish holidays, although it starts the prior evening. Amechad 20:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Not only that, but 2007 is only the second invocation of the "monday" clause, first instituted in 2004, which pushes it to tuesday if it lands on monday. All software written before 2004 and not updated would put it on April 23, instead of the correct April 24. -Vonfraginoff 06:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph is NOT confusing, but clarifying. I wish someone in my city had checked the 2004 law, as everyone here (6th largest US city) is celebrating israeli independence day on Monday 2007. It's possible that the calendar you have is incorrect.

An external link http://www.hebcal.com/news/2007/01/yom_haatzmaut_yom_hazikaron_2007.html quotes the wikipedia article, saying that the article explains the new dating.

The funny thing is that while people believe this holiday is - or almost always is - on 5 of Iyyar - it actually is almost never on that date! The Jewish calendar's rules which determine the allowed days of Passover (15 of Nissan) also determine the possible days of 5 of Iyyar. And *additionally* we want to exclude sunday, monday, saturday - we end up that 5 of Iyyar is rarely the date of independence day - it's usually moved forward or backward. If there's interest, I can come up with the exact details and explain them in the article. The basics are in here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_week_on_Hebrew_calendar Nyh (talk) 11:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Turns out I already explained the detauls once: check out http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/pipermail/linux-il/2010-April/004313.html Nyh (talk) 12:05, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 June 2017
Add (* Yom-Ha’atzmaut BimBam Jewish Animation) at the bottom of the article under "External Links." This is a link to a website for a Jewish animation company called BimBam that specializes in animated videos that instruct about a variety of Jewish topics. This link in particular is to their video about Israeli Independence Day. Jewishnerd (talk) 19:54, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: Editor has been added links to BimBam on many articles in the last few hours. Validity of the website should be verified before adding the link. Jumpytoo Talk 20:02, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. I am reverting all of these additions across Wikipedia. Please go to WT:JUDAISM and discuss there. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:39, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

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Timing
It's 2018. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.224.79.1 (talk) 07:22, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Edit Next Yom Haatzmaut
Please change The next occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut will take place on 8–9 May 2019.

to

The next occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut will take place on 28–29 April 2020.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nslonim (talk • contribs) 14:52, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅, though the truth is that I'm an hour or so early. (It's still Independence Day at this moment.) StevenJ81 (talk) 15:30, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Please change The next occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut will take place on 28–29 April 2020. to The next occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut will take place on 14–15 April 2021.

Link
Please link between Torch-lighting Ceremony (Israel) and the "Independence Day eve" paragraph. for some reason it is not been linked yet. Sincereley, Chaimkapusta (talk) 11:44, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

False information
Israeli Independence day was yesterday, April 18th. Not "19 May 2018 (Thursday, advanced one day to Iyar 4)". איתן (talk) 08:11, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

This article is not updated for the year 2021. It says the next independence day is in April 2020. Someone with 30/500 access please fix. SteelSmasher93 (talk) 04:26, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Broken link repair
In this line: Rabbi Eliezer Melamed, Peninei Halachah – Zmanim, Yom HaAtzmaut

The current code is:
 * Rabbi Eliezer Melamed, Peninei Halachah – Zmanim, Yom HaAtzmaut

The correct code with the updated link is:
 * Rabbi Eliezer Melamed, Peninei Halachah – Zmanim, Yom HaAtzmaut

link: https://ph.yhb.org.il/en/category/zemanim/05-04/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by AYHB (talk • contribs) 14:05, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Archive links help prevent link rot, and there is no change between the two links. Sennecaster   ( What now? ) 16:19, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 May 2022
change

The most recent occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut took place from sunset to sunset, 14-15 April 2021.

to

The most recent occurrence of Yom Haatzmaut took place from sunset to sunset, 4-5 May 2022. Dfa1234 (talk) 13:19, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ MadGuy7023 (talk) 19:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 March 2023
In the "short description" box, the lines: Pinchast (talk) 07:25, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 March 2023
On the table at the top of the page, could someone fix it so it can show 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2026? The table only shows 2025. Can you please fix the table? Please. 2600:6C48:427F:9122:3593:26E4:5A00:25C0 (talk) 03:23, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 13:21, 8 March 2023 (UTC)


text:
Kiki VanDeWeghe

Ernest Maurice "Kiki" VanDeWeghe III (born August 1, 1958) is a German-born American-Canadian former professional basketball player, coach and executive who is an advisor for the National Basketball Association (NBA). As a player, he was a two-time NBA All-Star.

Biography
VanDeWeghe was born in Wiesbaden, West Germany, the son of former NBA player Ernie Vandeweghe and Colleen Kay Hutchins, the winner of the 1952 Miss America pageant.

VanDeWeghe moved back to the U.S. as a child and eventually wound up playing college basketball for the UCLA Bruins, where he earned all-conference honors in the Pac-10 (now known as the Pac-12). He led the Bruins to the 1980 NCAA championship game, where they would lose to Louisville. He became an excellent scorer and outside shooter in the NBA, averaging 20 points for seven consecutive seasons. He was particularly known for his use of the stepback, a move he was so proficient at that it was often referred to as the "Kiki Move" toward the end of his career. VanDeWeghe's teams qualified for the NBA playoffs in 12 of his 13 seasons in the league, although none of his teams ever won the NBA championship. VanDeWeghe was later the general manager of the Denver Nuggets and the New Jersey Nets, and a head coach of the Nets. He was the NBA's executive vice president of basketball operations for eight years (2013–2021).

For the bulk of his career, VanDeWeghe spelled his surname "Vandeweghe" (with only the V capitalized), a spelling used by his parents before their deaths, and still used by his niece who has a prominent tennis career. In 2013, he announced he was changing the spelling of his name to "VanDeWeghe", in honor of his recently departed paternal grandfather and namesake.

College career
VanDeWeghe played four seasons at the University of California, Los Angeles, culminating in a senior season in which expectations for the Bruins were lower than in previous seasons. The team was coming off a season in which they lost three starters, David Greenwood, Roy Hamilton, and Brad Holland to the NBA as first-round draft picks. Also, the Bruins had a new coach, Larry Brown, who was coaching a collegiate team for the first time. Replacing this talent were some mainly unknown freshman, namely "Rocket" Rod Foster, Michael Holton, and Darren Daye, along with sophomore Mike Sanders. VanDeWeghe and James Wilkes were the lone seniors. The team was sluggish at the first, but gelled toward the end and finished the regular season 17–9. The Bruins, dubbed "Kiki and the Kids", were the 48th and final team selected to participate in the 1979–80 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament. With VanDeWeghe leading the way, the Bruins made it all the way to the final, upsetting #1 DePaul and Mark Aguirre on the way. In the final, the Bruins lost to the University of Louisville led by Darrell Griffith.

Playing career
VanDeWeghe was drafted 11th overall in the 1980 NBA draft by the Dallas Mavericks, but refused to play for Dallas and demanded a trade (for virtually the remainder of his career, he was subjected to boos whenever he played in Dallas). He got his wish, and was traded to the Nuggets on December 3 of that same year. As a member of the Nuggets, VanDeWeghe was twice selected to the NBA Western Conference All-Star team, in 1983 and 1984. He was second in scoring in 1983, averaging 26.7 points, and 3rd in 1984 with a career-high 29.4 points.

During the 1983–84 Nuggets season, VanDeWeghe scored 50 or more points in two NBA record-setting games. The first, on December 13, 1983, in which he had a career-high 51 points, is also the highest combined scoring game in NBA history, a 186-184 triple-overtime loss to the Detroit Pistons. In the second, a 163-155 win over the San Antonio Spurs on January 11, 1984 (at the time, the highest combined scoring NBA regulation game of all time), he had an even 50.

In the summer of 1984, VanDeWeghe was traded to the Portland Trail Blazers in exchange for Calvin Natt, Wayne Cooper, Fat Lever, and two draft picks. He had several productive seasons in Portland, where he averaged nearly 25 points a game paired with Clyde Drexler to form a dynamic scoring duo. In the 1986 NBA Playoffs, VanDeWeghe averaged a postseason career high 28 points a game in a first round loss to his former team, the Nuggets. On March 5, 1987, VanDeWeghe scored 48 points, his highest single game total as a Trail Blazer, in a 127-122 loss to the Seattle SuperSonics. However, during the 1987–88 season, VanDeWeghe suffered a back injury and lost his starting job to Jerome Kersey. He was traded the next year to the New York Knicks (where his father played his entire career), with whom he played for several years. He then played half a season with the Los Angeles Clippers before retiring from the league after the 1992–93 season.

Executive career
VanDeWeghe initially had a front-office role with the Dallas Mavericks, where he was instrumental in the development of Dirk Nowitzki. During his time in Dallas, VanDeWeghe also briefly served as an assistant head coach. On August 9, 2001, VanDeWeghe was named to the Nuggets' general manager position and oversaw a return by the Nuggets to the NBA playoffs. Major moves by VanDeWeghe included the drafting of Carmelo Anthony in 2003, the trade for Marcus Camby in 2002 and the hiring of George Karl as head coach in 2005. However, some other moves by VanDeWeghe backfired outright or failed to produce the desired returns, such as the drafting of draft bust Nikoloz Tskitishvili in 2002 and the sign-and-trade deal with the New Jersey Nets to acquire Kenyon Martin at the end of the 2003–04 season. Shortly following a first-round playoff elimination at the hands of the Clippers in the 2006 playoffs, the Nuggets announced that VanDeWeghe's contract would not be renewed.

He spent 2006–07 as an NBA analyst for ESPN, appearing on the channel's SportsCenter and NBA Shootaround programs, among others. However, on December 31, 2007, the Nets announced that VanDeWeghe would join the team as a special assistant to team president and general manager Rod Thorn. VanDeWeghe replaced Ed Stefanski, who left the Nets to join the Philadelphia 76ers earlier in the month. Stefanski replaced Billy King as the 76ers' general manager.

On December 1, 2009, VanDeWeghe agreed to assume duties as interim head coach of the Nets while continuing to be general manager of the team (although assistant coach Tom Barrise served as head coach for their December 2 game). VanDeWeghe replaced Lawrence Frank as head coach after the Nets started the 2009–10 season with 16 consecutive losses. VanDeWeghe hired Del Harris as an assistant, who was to be his "virtual co-coach", though he resigned midway through the season on February 2, 2010. Harris resigned after he learned that a possible side deal that he had made with VanDeWeghe to become head coach had failed.

After Nets ownership changed hands, Mikhail Prokhorov announced that VanDeWeghe would not return the following season.

VanDeWeghe joined the leadership team of the NBA in 2013, serving as the executive vice president of basketball operations for eight years through 2021, when he transitioned into an advisory role to both NBA commissioner Adam Silver and president of league operations Byron Spruell.

Personal life
VanDeWeghe is the nephew of NBA player and four-time All-Star Mel Hutchins. He has a niece, Coco Vandeweghe, who is a former professional tennis player. VanDeWeghe and his wife Peggy have one son, Ernest Maurice VanDeWeghe IV, born in 2002.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Kiki VanDeWeghe


text:
Talk:Records management

Wikipedia Ambassador Program assignment
This article is the subject of an educational assignment at University of Wikipedia supported by WikiProject Wikipedia and the Wikipedia Ambassador Program during the 2011 Q3 term. Further details are available on the course page.

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Record preserving
Ways of preserving record against damage or loss Noel heddy (talk) 07:30, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

For someone with any question just ask and your question will be answered is about ways of preventing record from loss or damage. Noel heddy (talk) 07:39, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Explain the record management cycle 197.221.239.94 (talk) 22:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Records management


text:
Gerald Levinson

Gerald Charles Levinson (born June 22, 1951 in Westport, Connecticut) is an American composer of contemporary classical music.

Life
At university, he studied with George Crumb, Richard Wernick, and George Rochberg. After college, Levinson went to study composition with Olivier Messiaen at the Paris Conservatory. He was inspired by Messiaen's use of birdsong and his unique harmonic ideas, as well as the musics of Bali and India. Levinson has also worked with Simon Rattle, Ralph Shapey, and Seiji Ozawa.

His notable works include Anahata, Symphony No. 2, and Black Magic/White Magic (1981), a collaboration with his wife, poet Nanine Valen. Numerous CDs of his music have been released, and his scores are published by Theodore Presser.

He has taught music at Swarthmore College since 1977. His works have previously been performed by orchestras such as the Philadelphia Orchestra and the Los Angeles Philharmonic. A new work for organ and orchestra by Levinson was premiered by the Philadelphia Orchestra in its 2005–2006 season. He has two children, Adam Valen Levinson, and Ari Valen Levinson.

Awards

 * Guggenheim Fellowship (1982)
 * Music Award of the American Academy of Arts and Letters (1990)
 * The Goddard Lieberson Fellowship of the American Academy of Arts and Letters
 * N.E.A. Fellowship, twice
 * 2007 Pew Fellowships in the Arts

title: Gerald Levinson


text:
Talk:Sebastian Coe

Great Court Run
I like to nitpick because I am an old fart. There is no way that Lord Burghley could have run 367 metres in 43 seconds. That extrapolates to 46.8 seconds for 400 metres, slightly faster maybe given that it's only 367 metres. No one in the world ran under 47 seconds until Ben Eastman in 1932. Leaving that aside, it seems a little ridiculous that Burghley could have run as fast as Coe and Cram did 60 years later. Finally, Burghley ran the third leg of the British 4x400 team that ran 3:11 at the 1932 Olympics, and probably split mid-to-low 47 considering that the first runner was likely slower than the average of 47.75. I doubt he had a running start and also that he ran faster at the Great Court than he did at the Olympics.

- Anthony "the trumper"

I think I can resolve this. The 367 m is the perimeter of the interior quadrangle at Trinity. Clearly there could be no requirement to run exactly along the wall and touch each corner -- that would require a dead stop and a turn at each corner. Impossible. The plan view of Trinity on Google maps shows a stone path all around the interior of the quad. Estimating it at 3 m wide, and if the requirement is simply to stay on the path and stay off the grass, the distance is reduced by 24 metres. Add a bit for bends, but suddenly it's quite feasible for a Coe, a Cram or even a Cecil.Cross Reference 00:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

-TW

I'm not sure about this 'video' evidence. Film never has the exact timing of a run if recorded. For example there are videos of sub 10 second 100m runs being done in well over 10 seconds on film. I thought it was agreed that taping a race can't supply an accurate time? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.181.167 (talk) 15:29, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Privy Councillor
I noticed someone had placed the Right Honourable before his name, but Lord Coe isn't a Privy Councillor.

As a Baron he is entitled to use the Rt. Hon. as a part of the formal use of his title, but not casually in this way.

 * "Casually"? Who said anything about "casually"? Proteus (Talk) 09:36, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

What I meant was, "casually" like Privy Council appointment is used before the name. Jason_Hughes

 * But this isn't a "casual" usage, it's his formal name and title at the beginning of an encyclopaedia article. Proteus (Talk) 09:41, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of the use of the word casual, which clearly balks you so, Lord Coe is not a member of the Privy Council. All profiles of Lord Coe, including the Privy Council Office itself does not list him as a Privy Councillor, and they are a definitive list of Privy Council members, including the Prime Minister of Canada, for example. Lord Coe does not feature as a Privy Councillor, on any list. --Jason Hughes 09:56, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Hughes makes a valid point, he is quite right in pointing out that His Lordship is not a member of Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council. User:Toryboy

No one said he was. Proteus (Talk) 20:43, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

How amazingly clever to continue inserting the Right Honourable into the article then. You're marvellously clever aren't you? --Jason Hughes 21:58, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

 * What on Earth is that supposed to mean? Proteus (Talk) 15:45, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

By the way, I happen to have a copy of Debrett's Correct Form sitting on my desk. I'm not sure what buying another copy would accomplish. Proteus (Talk) 20:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I think we all agree that Coe is not a Privy Councillor, so there is no sense belabouring this point. There is also no sense in using inflamatory language ("You're marvellously clever aren't you?" "stupid, pompous little man," "self-important man"), when we're all working in good faith.  As I understand it, Lord Coe is "Right Honourable" by virtue of being a baron.  If this is wrong, Jason Hughes, would you please provide some evidence, rather than engaging in a revert war.  I am no expert on this matter and would like to know if I am in error.  HistoryBA 17:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I really shouldn't have to do this, since no one else has provided any evidence that "The Right Honourable" is improper before Lord Coe's name, but I'm getting really sick of ignorant people assuming they know everything:
 * ''Legal Documents
 * ''Peers and peeresses (in their own right, and wives and widows of peers) are accorded their full formal styles with their forenames but with no surname:
 * ''The Most Noble Charles John, Duke of Blank
 * ''The Most Noble Anne Frances, Duchess of Blank
 * ''The Most Honourable Charles John, Marquess (of) Blank
 * ''The Most Honourable Anne Frances, Marchioness (of) Blank
 * ''The Right Honourable Charles John, Earl (of), Viscount or Baron Blank
 * ''The Right Honourable Anne Frances, Countess (of) Blank, Viscountess or Baroness Blank
 * ''Peers by courtesy and their wives are not accorded the prefix 'Most Honourable' or 'Right Honourable' (unless they are members of the Privy Council).

From Debrett's Correct Form. Now please leave this article alone and stop forcing me to waste my time. Proteus (Talk) 00:29, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Having read your discussion entry, Proteus, I have to conceed that you are infact correct in your use of "The Right Honourable" in this and other cases. I will therefore cease in reverting your edits and hope that you can accept my appologies for taking up your time. Toryboy 14.45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

However, Lord Coe is a life Baron and not entitled to Rt Hon.Sebmelmoth (talk) 11:06, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Baron or Lord or commoner?
I think the use of Baron Coe in the article should be amended to Lord Coe. Male British peers of rank baron are always referred to as Lord, not Baron (women are usually referred to a Baroness). From Burke's Peerage: Indeed to refer in the third person to any baron in the peerage ... as 'Baron Blank' rather than 'Lord Blank' is a solecism. See also the style used in the Members List of the House of Lords. Oldbus 23:30, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Currently, we always use "Baron" in the title of articles on Wikipedia. Sometimes I think the page title should use "Lord" (the boldened name in the opening should definitely remain as Baron) but that's not the current policy so Sebastian Coe, Baron Coe is it. However, any other references in the article should definitely be to Lord Coe, so if you see any Barons, please change them!  J Rawle  (Talk) 15:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Not always we dont, se Margaret Thatcher and Jeffrey Archer. This article should use the common term which is Sebastian Coe, the name he has been known as for far longer than his political involvement, SqueakBox 19:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it should be either "Seb Coe" or "Sebastian Coe"--Vintagekits 20:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Glad to see we agree on something, SqueakBox 20:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

How much does he make out of Olympics merchandising?
Here’s a full list of executives across the Olympic project whose most recent declared annual remuneration exceeds £100,000 - no idea if they get anything from sponsors... Paul Deighton, LOCOG chief executive £699,998 (salary £479,873, bonus £220,125; David Higgins, ODA former chief executive £544,000(salary £325,000, bonus £179,000, pension £40,000); Dennis Hone, ODA chief executive £401,000(salary £274,000, bonus £79,000, pension £48,000); Sebastian Coe, LOCOG chairman £357,000; Howard Shiplee, ODA director of construction £320,000 (salary £287,000, pension £33,000); Jeremy Beeton, GOE director general £265,000 – £270,000; Neil Wood, LOCOG chief financial officer £260,000; Alison Nimmo, ODA director of design and regeneration £257,000(salary £228,000, pension £29,000; Hugh Sumner, ODA director of transport £255,000 (salary £228,000, pension £27,000); Simon Wright, ODA director of infrastructure and utilities £255,000** (salary £228,000, pension £27,000) Ralph Luck, ODA director of property £255,000(salary £203,000, pension £47,000, taxable benefits £5,000); John Armitt, ODA chairman £250,000; Godric Smith, ODA director of communications £218,000(salary £195,000, pension £23,000); David Goldstone, GOE finance director £185,000 – £190,000; Jonathan Stephens, DCMS permanent secretary £155,000 – £160,000; Liz Nicholl, UK Sport chief executive £115,000 – £120,000 plus £10,000 – £15,000 bonus; Tim Hollingsworth, UK Sport former communications director £100,000 – £105,000 plus £10,000 – £15,000 bonus; .Source:  80.42.227.180 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2012 (UTC)temptfate66380.42.227.180 (talk) 13:31, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

He first ran against Ovett ...
The date of 1972 is often given on the web, but a careful study of the words suggests that all of these articles have been copied from each other. The correct date is Saturday, 24th March 1973. The event was the All-England Schools Cross-Country Finals held in Swindon, Wiltshire. As far as I know, Steve Ovett was second, whilst Seb Coe also finished in the top ten (in sixth place, I believe). I know, because I also ran on that day! By the way, Steve Cram did too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.76.176 (talk) 00:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Foul Mouthed Comments About the Welsh and Scottish
"In September 2008 Coe controversially told reporters "Fuck 'em" when asked about the opposition to the creation of a footballing Team GB from Scottish and Welsh supporters as reported in The London Paper, 30 September 2008, page 5 "Coe: Yes to 2012 GB footy team – The Scots and Welsh? Fuck 'em".[17] Was he reprimanded at all for this foul mouthed outburst? 79.75.212.205 (talk) 18:00, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

 * I haven't a clue.--OhNoPeedyPeebles (talk) 14:42, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Nike Deal for 2012
He is a world ambassador for Nike. Are they sponsoring or manufacturing the olympics 2012 merchandising? twl 79.75.212.205 (talk) 18:00, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Peculiar Accent - Origins?
Coe's accent has altered greatly since being given the job for life in the House of Lords after losing his safe seat in Parliament - has he had elocution lessons, and if so, do the Conservative Party supply them? Other Tories who's accent changed suddenly were of course Mrs. Thatcher ('we are a grandmother') and Sayeeda Waarsi (who was also given an unelected job for life in the upper chamber at £300 a day + expenses)- I recall Saatchi & Saatchi being used to 'upgrade' Mrs. T's image (including advising her to lower her voice to sound more masculine),and I wondered if Mr. Coe was given the same advice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.212.205 (talk) 18:06, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

KBE picture
Lord Coe is a Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire (KBE). For some unknown reason, users continue to add a picture with the caption "KBE Breast Star". The said picture does not show the Breast Star of a Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire however, but the Breast Star of a Knight Grand Cross (GBE) of the said order. If anyone wants to see what the KBE Breast Star looks like, an example can be seen here: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4cKn-7BpzUg/T74F9RLahZI/AAAAAAAANQk/IsniN6BHCHY/s1600/IVE.jpeg KBE and GBE are different things! Cyan22 (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

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Controversies ?
The article reads as if it is a hagiography, there are plenty of things that suggest that "Lord" Coe is a political actor interested in using Athletics to further a particular point of view in world order. These are, at this stage, almost original research pieces, but at some stage, there needs to be a controversies' sector that includes issues of how Coe relates to Russia in particular. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.51.45.141 (talk) 14:41, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree. I noticed his 2008 controversial statements about Scotland, Welsh and Northern Irish fan was deleted (I also note that the original source is no longer up - http://www.thelondonpaper.com/cs/Satellite/london/news/article/1157155479676?packedargs=suffix%3DArticleController) the and Russian doping scandal words were written in a way that made it unclear if he was accused of anything.  There is a lack of neutrality in this page.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by CT55555 (talk • contribs) 23:05, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

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Please amend my comment to explain why he is not a "Sir"
"Sir" at the top wouldn't be consistent with other knights' pages, but "Sir" for the name would be. The article says he's a KBE and the article on the Oder of BE says that "K"s get a "Sir", and says that a a peer or prince doesn't use a "Sir" for a KBE "except when the names of the former are written out in their fullest forms". So, if the name beginning the first sentence is what is called "written out in their fullest form", then it should include "Sir". If that is NOT "fullest form", then it is correct as is.2600:1700:6759:B000:1C64:8308:33BC:E2D6 (talk) 06:17, 8 June 2023 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

 * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2600:1700:6759:B000:1C64:8308:33BC:E2D6 192.82.12.0 (talk) 23:25, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sebastian Coe


text:
Talk:Manchester Baby

Change of opening sentence
I think the change in the opening sentence to "The Manchester Baby, also known since its replication project as the Small-Scale Experimental Machine (SSEM)," is not as clear and straight forward as the previous  and now current version with I have reverted to. I think this change - the content of which was argued about for a long time should be discussed further if needed. (Msrasnw (talk) 09:25, 21 June 2022 (UTC))

Additional image of replica, please
Could someone more adept at editing please add this image of the replica:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SSEM_Replica.jpg

It shows the computer itself much more clearly than the image in the Infobox. It's from the Main page's "On This Day", 2022-06-21, so rights are OK. BMJ-pdx (talk) 09:40, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. Eastfarthingan (talk) 09:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

ABC computer and Colossus
Our background section said "The Colossus of 1943 was the first electronic computing device...". I've modified this to add the ABC computer as well as Colossus. The reason was the wording; the Colossus was partially programmable, while the ABC computer was not, but the ABC computer was definitely an electronic computing device, albeit one that solved a single algebraic problem. If the wording had included something about programmability then I'd happily leave ABC out, but as it stands, ABC is relevant (in any case it's quite a milestone in the history of electronic computing, so it's nice to include it). I hope this makes sense? I know claims of earliest in computing can get very emotive - I have no axe to grind here, and don't want to tread on anyone's toes. Elemimele (talk) 11:32, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Clarifying the "also called"
One thing that became very clear in our previous discussions of the name "Small-Scale Experimental Machine" is that that name was coined by Burton as part of the replication project, adapted from the publication with " – a small-scale experimental machine" in its title, and had never been used in print before then, unlike "Baby" which was widely used (see User:Dicklyon/Baby for details with dates). But my attempt to clarify that was reverted as contensious. Why? I think I was correctly softening an overly broad claim. Dicklyon (talk) 17:53, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

 * I reverted your modification and unnecessary complication of the lead because I think this was a contentious issue where your finding based on your research rather than reliable sources was used to justify this view of the name But I think we could do with a reliable source that indicates the Burton made up the SSEM name if you want to push it. We have a reliable source - that you argue was wrong that says that it was the original name. You might be right and the reliable source wrong .. but I think should have a reliable source rather than your argument to substantiate this. That is my view. But also it felt a bit naughty/provocative to me for you to do this when it was on front page. Best wishes (Msrasnw (talk) 13:26, 23 June 2022 (UTC))
 * On the name …   Lavington says this:    “Certainly, the instruction set finally chosen by Kilburn for the June 1948 computer was different from the one proposed by Good and at Manchester the now-familiar name Baby was not associated with the June 1948 computer until many years later. When the June 1948 design was formally described in print it was called the Small-scale Experimental Machine, abbreviated as SSEM.”  (Lavington, 2019, p. 284). Lavington, S. (2019). Early Computing in Britain. History of Computing, Ferranti Ltd. and Government Funding, 1948–1958. Springer,
 * Yet no source calling it the SSEM or Small-Scale Experimental Machine before Burton has ever been pointed out. Burton himself admitting choosing to the name in the rebuild project, but he did so in a private email to me, not in an RS.  Lavington himself didn't use the name until after the rebuild. Here are some bits from his early writings:
 * 1975. A history of Manchester computers by Simon Hugh Lavington has the paper subtitle in the refs, sentence case. And on p. 7 "The prototype machine", and "a prototype machine", and "The 'baby machine,' as it was called". And on p. 8 "The machine", "the prototype", and "the world's first stored-program computer".  No name but "baby".
 * 1978. Lavington's paper "The Manchester Mark I and Atlas: A Historical Perspective" refers to "the prototypes" and uses "A small-scale experimental machine", only in reference to the 1951 paper subtitle, in a sentence-case context where only proper names are being capped (as in "An attempt to simplify coding for the Manchester electronic computer").
 * 1980. History of Computing in the Twentieth Century edited by Nicholas Negraponte, article "Computer Development at Manchester University" by S. H. Lavington (reprinted in 2014 book) calls it, "the 'baby MARK I'". There's no "small scale" or "experimental machine" or SSEM or anything like that present.
 * 1980. This other Lavington 1980, the book Early British Computers, calls it only "a very small prototype computer".
 * 2011. Lavington, Simon. Moving Targets: Elliott-Automation and the Dawn of the Computer Age in Britain, 1947–67 – uses lowercase, e.g. "The small-scale experimental machine (SSEM), also called the Baby", except caps in the index entries.
 * So I think the implication that it was known as the SSEM is much more sketchy that a statement that is was known as that after the rebuild project, Lavington's revisionist history notwithstanding. Dicklyon (talk) 20:20, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, Lavington's 2019 statement about the name is pretty clearly influenced by the 2018 email conversation with me and him and Burton. He didn't use or suggest the capped version at all, in discussions of what he and others had used before, until after Burton said he strongly preferred it. Dicklyon (talk) 20:28, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
 * And his statement "When the June 1948 design was formally described in print it was called the Small-scale Experimental Machine" is flat-out wrong.  The subtitle was "A SMALL-SCALE EXPERIMENTAL MACHINE", and the phrase did not appear in the text otherwise, capped or not, and never with "the". Dicklyon (talk) 20:30, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Reply/repeat on my view of reliable sources for SSEM as a name for this computer:  - But this is going round in circles... as things stand The Manchester Baby, also called the Small-Scale Experimental Machine (SSEM) seems to me fine as a lead. I got connected to this through having read our article on the SSEM and started the little page on Tootill. (Msrasnw (talk) 12:50, 26 June 2022 (UTC))
 * Lavington - in printed reliable sources  (You say this is wrong  - and he was influenced to make the error by your private email to him)
 * Burton - in printed reliable sources (You say is wrong - but has privately admitted to being wrong in print to you in a private email to you )
 * Tootill (one of the machines builders) actually saying "The baby computer which the journalists have called it. the small scale experimental machine we called it."  (You say is wrong  - deliberately to conspire with Burton)
 * My point is that there's no evidence of the use of "small-scale experimental machine" in print before the rebuild, except as the subtitle "a small-scale experimental machine", and if they referred to it as "the small-scale experimental machine", they certainly didn't think of that as a name. And there is evidence of "Baby" in print (as early as 1947 iirc), so it's not something the journalists made up, as Tootill (iirc) said.  And my investigations that included conversations with the principals helped explain the evolution of the use of the name, which Lavington did not capitalize until after our conversation.  If you'd like to see the emails, or want their email addresses so you can ask them yourself, email me.  I am not intending to try to use these private conversations as reliable sources, but as "background" to help interpret the subtleties, such as the implication that it was "also know as the Small-Scale Experimental Machine", which if supported by sources at all would have to be lowercase.  I thought my edit to the lead would be an uncontroversial resolution of this misinformation, since it's supported by reliable sources, and true instead of misleading. Dicklyon (talk) 01:44, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not convinced that you have reliable sources to support your claim/research/argument - and our opening The Manchester Baby, also called the Small-Scale Experimental Machine (SSEM)  is something that we have reliable sources for. The lead does not say has always been called SSEM or anything so I don't think can be viewed as contentious. We will have to agree to disagree on the reliability of Lavington, Burton and Tootill claims/views. Best wishes (Msrasnw (talk) 10:55, 1 July 2022 (UTC))
 * My wording change only weakens what the lead claims, so shouldn't need additional sourcing. The current version, by not restricting the time scope, tends to imply it has always been called that, which is clearly not true.  You can see for yourself, searching books for "small-scale experimental machine", that every occurrence in the first 20 years after the machine was made is in the context of citations to the paper with subtitle "a small-scale experimental machine" (with various capitalizations).  Tootill's personal recollections of what they "called it" is not very relevant to what it was "known as" if that knowing was only in private.  Reliable sources never called it that.  Dicklyon (talk) 23:58, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

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Hideo Gosha

Hideo Gosha (五社 英雄) was a Japanese film director.

Born in Nishigahara, Tokyo Prefecture, Gosha graduated from high school and served in the Imperial Navy during the Second World War. After earning a business degree at Meiji University, he joined Nippon television as a reporter in 1953. In 1957 he moved on to the newly founded Fuji Television and rose through the ranks as a producer and director. One of his television shows, the chambara Three Outlaw Samurai, so impressed the heads of the Shochiku film studio that he was offered the chance to adapt it as a feature film in 1964. Following this film's financial success, he directed a string of equally successful chambara productions through the end of the 1960s. His two most critical and popular successes of the period are Goyokin and Hitokiri (also known as Tenchu), both released in 1969 and both considered to be two of the finest examples of the chambara genre. In The Samurai Film, the first book-length study of the genre in English, film historian Alain Silver devoted an entire chapter to Gosha's work and noted that "Tenchu/Hitokiri may, with some justice, be cited as one of the most accomplished examples of the samurai genre since World War II."

During the 1970s Gosha abandoned pure chambara and turned his productive energies toward films in the yakuza genre but he still produced period sword films such as The Wolves (1971), Bandits vs. Samurai Squadron (1978), and Hunter in the Dark (1979). His films Three Outlaw Samurai and Sword of the Beast (1965) have been released by Criterion.

By the early 1980s, Gosha began making period films that featured prostitutes as protagonists that were renowned for their realism, violence, and overt sexuality. They were critically panned for those very reasons, but they were also all box office successes. In 1984 he was awarded the Japan Academy Prize for Director of the Year for The Geisha.

Gosha’s films have influenced directors including Chang Cheh, Takashi Miike, and Yoshiaki Kawajiri.

Filmography

 * 1964 Three Outlaw Samurai
 * 1965 Sword of the Beast
 * 1966 Cash Calls Hell
 * 1966 The Secret of the Urn
 * 1966 Samurai Wolf
 * 1967 Samurai Wolf II
 * 1969 Goyokin
 * 1969 Hitokiri (a.k.a. Tenchu)
 * 1971 The Wolves
 * 1974 Violent Streets
 * 1978 Bandits vs. Samurai Squadron
 * 1979 Hunter in the Dark
 * 1982 Onimasa
 * 1983 The Geisha
 * 1984 Fireflies in the North
 * 1985 Oar/Kai
 * 1985 Tracked/Usugesho
 * 1986 Death Shadows
 * 1986 The Yakuza Wives
 * 1987 Tokyo Bordello
 * 1988 Carmen 1945
 * 1989 226/Four Days of Snow and Blood
 * 1991 Kagero
 * 1992 The Oil-Hell Murder

title: Hideo Gosha


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User:FishbladeBluestream

Hello.

Nothing much about me.

Goodbye, then.

title: User:FishbladeBluestream


text: User talk:68.4.12.23

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Gerry Hitchens

Gerald Archibald Hitchens (8 October 1934 – 13 April 1983) was an English footballer who played as a centre forward.

Early career
Hitchens was born in the village of Rawnsley, Staffordshire, near Cannock, and began his career as a coal miner. He played in Shropshire with Highley Youth Club and Highley Miners Welfare between 1952 and 1953. He appeared in a county cup final for the Miners at Aggborough, the home stadium of local club Kidderminster Harriers. His performance was being watched by the Harriers club secretary Ted Gamson, who went on to offer Hitchens a contract in September 1953. After several seasons in the reserves, Hitchens played fourteen games for the first team, scoring six goals.

Professional career
Despite interest from West Bromwich Albion and Aston Villa, Hitchens moved to Cardiff City in January 1955 for a fee of £1,500. Hitchens got off to a good start by scoring within three minutes of the kick-off when making his League debut against Wolverhampton Wanderers in April 1955. Hitchens was then playing inside-forward but he subsequently took over the centre-forward berth and was top scorer in the subsequent two seasons.

Hitchens moved on to Aston Villa in 1957 for £22,500, where he spent four seasons, scoring 96 goals in 160 appearances.

He made his debut for England in 1961, scoring after just 90 seconds in an 8–0 drubbing of Mexico, and two weeks later scored twice more in Rome as England beat Italy 3–2.

This brought him to the attention of Inter Milan, who signed him in the summer of 1961 for £85,000. Hitchens was Internazionale's top scorer with 16 goals in his first season.

He played for England in the 1962 World Cup in Chile, and won a total of seven caps, scoring five goals. When chosen to appear for England in the World Cup, Hitchens became the first Englishman to represent his country while on the books of a foreign club. Inter won Serie A in 1963, making him the second Englishman to win the Italian title after Jimmy Greaves and the last until Ashley Young did so for the same club in 2021.

However, when Alf Ramsey took over as England manager, Hitchens' international spell came to a halt, Ramsey preferring to pick home-based players.

Nevertheless, Hitchens stayed in Italy for nine years, also playing for Torino, Atalanta and Cagliari.

After retiring from the professional game in 1971, he played for Worcester City and Merthyr Tydfil before moving to live in Wales, managing an ironworks in Pontypridd before moving north to Holywell, Flintshire, in 1977 to run his brother-in-law's timber supply firm near Prestatyn.

He died playing in 1983 during a charity football match for a Mold-based firm of solicitors at Castell Alun sports ground in Hope. Seconds after heading a cross over the bar, Hitchens collapsed and was taken to Wrexham General Hospital but pronounced dead on arrival. His ashes were interred in Holywell on 20 April 1983. He was 48.

Honours
Cardiff City
 * Welsh Cup: 1955–56

Aston Villa
 * Second Division: 1959–60

Inter Milan
 * Serie A: 1962–63

Torino
 * Coppa Italia runner-up: 1962–63, 1963–64

title: Gerry Hitchens