text:
Talk:Betsy McCaughey

No Exit
I rewrote the No Exit paragraph and dropped this:
 * Ross herself was heavily criticized for her analysis of the Clinton plan and called a Cassandra for her warnings.

I know the misuse of the "Cassandra" metaphor is rampant that I am never going to make a difference here, but nonetheless: In classical literature, Cassandra had the gift of prophecy and the curse of not being believed by anyone. Thus, when she forecast something awful (such as the murder of Agamemnon), her warnings would be disregarded and the catastrophe would happen. The McCaughey article was, if anything, the inverse of a Cassandra warning: she predicted that the Clinton health plan, if enacted, would be a disaster (denied by the plan supporters) but her warning was a key factor in the plan's defeat. Ellsworth 21:57, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Unattributed claim
"Her 1993 attack on the Clinton healthcare plan was likely a major factor in the initially-popular bill's defeat in Congress." Seriously, you have got to be kidding. Can we delete this until someone comes up with a reputable source? This sounds like egomania.

"Controversial" in lede
DickClarkMises and I have been going back and forth on whether to highlight just how controversial this individual is. Pulitzer prize winning reporters and several academics have impugned the validity of her claims; it is very important that readers do not confuse her point of view as being as equally valid as those with reputations as experts health policy. I have adjusted my edits to account for DickClarkMises' complaints but he has been summarily undoing my edits without trying to retain the essential points. Can we get someone to adjudicate? Healthcaretruthteller (talk) 16:27, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is that it is not the job of an encyclopedia to tell the reader to discount a person's work. That would be a violation of the Neutral Point of View policy. That policy states that "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." Also relevant here, the policy on Biographies of Living Persons states that "Criticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone.... Be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be promoting a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability." The purpose of an encyclopedia is to survey the information available in reliable sources and present it in a broad way that allows the reader to have a basic understanding of what/who a subject is. The many cited sources allow interested readers to delve further into the subject matter and better draw their own conclusions. If someone notable criticizes or praises McCaughey, it may be useful to include mention of it. However, we cannot as encyclopedia editors take sides in a controversy. DickClarkMises (talk) 19:56, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That is helpful - I appreciate the explanation. I added the words "sometimes controversial" to the lede, a phrase which I think is consistent with the Wikipedia policies. Saying so does not imply bias - it is an objective fact that many views "published by reliable sources" disagreed with her. The book I cited called her "mendacious" and it was written by two prominent journalists (Haynes Johnson and David Broder). This article would be misleading to not highlight the stir she caused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Healthcaretruthteller (talk • contribs) 17:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd like to compliment the editors of this article for thoroughly white washing it, while keeping Ezekiel Emanuel's rather extensive Controversy section that mostly contains Betsy McCaughey's false accusations against him. Bravo!  This article is a testament to Wikipedia itself!--Waxsin (talk) 16:06, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Frankly I find this so-called bio of her an attempt by certain contributors to rebut her and to portray her in a unfavorable way than to explain her views and positions in a neutral or fair manner. Hence it reads as a political polemic (as unfortunately many articles are on this site.) There are many examples of this throughout the article. Many of the sourced articles are themselves polemical attacks on her such as the No Exit article used to point out that McCaughey's mother was an alcoholic.

The No Exit article from the New Republic makes no pretense at being fair or objective calling her "the most irresponsible, dishonest, and destructive players on the public stage." This may be a true statement or not, but it is definitely a hyperbolic statement motiviated by the politics of the writer more than anything else, thereby making The No Exit article a questionable source.

Readers see No Exit article sourced continually throughout to rebut and to make ad hominem attacks on the subject of this biography. I saw this same ad hominen tactic used in the article on Lone Star Dietz when there are biographies of him that do not concur with the sourced material used in that article.

Interestingly in the comments sections of The New Republic article is this shameful lunatic comment from one of the No Exit readers, "I happened to catch her appearance on The Daily Show and I have to stress that this woman's unbelievable dishonesty had me frothing at the mouth. I kept hoping Stewart would vault the desk and throttle her until her evil was extinguished forever. People like this woman amaze me. Mccaughey's utter lack of regard for truth and her unwavering desire to prevent "real" change that benefits all people ... and, not those with the money to influence legislation ... is so apparent it drips from her zeal. It also amazes me that this woman is completely blind to the damage she is doing to our society and country. She doesn't deserve the life she has and if it weren't for her supposed "good looks" and the tits to match, she wouldn't be anything more than a lunatic. - pburton16"

How can Michelle Cottle's article in any sense be seen legitimate source material when it provokes such violent passions as those of pburton16 who wants McCaughey beatened and claims she does not deserve to live?

Hate is hate, and hate is not neutral. Articles such as Cottle's are written to provoke dislike or hatred of the target and are in the strictest sense propagandistic. Hence, they can not be considered legitimate (Neutral) sources.

I believe this article is a violation of Neutral Point of View policy and attempt to discount her works and it does take sides as most of the so-called sources are themselves attempts to do so. There are also very few articles in this bio used as sources that support her positions and views.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.166.127.181 (talk) 17:25, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

"How can Michelle Cottle's article in any sense be seen legitimate source material when it provokes such violent passions as those of pburton16 who wants McCaughey beatened and claims she does not deserve to live?" What's the logical fallacy here? Avocats (talk) 06:58, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Bio becoming unmanageable
Not sure if this bio was listed at the BLP board or how I ended up here, but this bio seems to be getting pretty bloated with questionably noteworthy material/criticism and "qualifiers" sprinkler throughout. I trimmed a little but this could use a serious review it seems. Maybe its just me as usuall :). Cheers! --Tom (talk) 16:10, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Folks can click on the links if they need more info. Its called well poisoning and is not necessary nor appropriate to "label" individuals and institutions this way unless there is some agenda to promote. --Tom (talk) 22:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As a random passer-by, this seems like a problem to me. If this woman has earned a reputation for extremist views from her peers, readers deserve to hear it; I certainly want to know which "experts" represent their profession and which ones are outliers. To take a far removed analogy, is it "well poisoning" to qualify the Bolsheviks as a "minority" group within the Russian Revolution? Or is it just the truth? Eliminating one well-earned qualifier like "controversial" seems like censorship. Just a third opinion. If I cared more I would have put the word "controversial" back into the article; I certainly would have liked to know immediately that when I started reading this article. -- Joe Simpson
 * "Well poisoning" doesn't say anything about the article without specific examples. The article should make McCaughey neither more positive nor more negative than the facts.Jimmuldrow (talk) 00:01, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

WP:BLP problems
Fellow contributors, notable criticisms specifically directed at McCaughey may be useful in constructing this article. However, please note that the manner of their presentation is important. We should not take sides in a dispute, declaring that one side was "right" and the other "wrong," even if one side is a majority view. Please note that the Wikipedia policy on Biographies of Living Persons states that Criticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. ...Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation is broadly neutral; in particular, subsection headings should reflect important areas to the subject's notability. DickClarkMises (talk) 19:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If someone lies or is incredibly wrong about something, according to the mainstream sources, then it is not NPOV to mention that. OTOH, it is POV to whitewash the article to hide that. Remember UNDUE. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 19:04, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * KC, I have never objected to mentioning notable criticisms--they are unquestionably important, especially when they aren't from a tabloid source. However, here we have people making claims in the encyclopedic voice that a living person was promulgating "false and misleading" statistics. I don't care what your sources are, it isn't the place of the encyclopedia to say someone was acting intentionally deceptive unless they cop to it. DickClarkMises (talk) 19:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Allow me to clarify, so I am certain I understand you correctly: you are saying we should not state that a persons' highly covered, universally declared false, statement should not be covered in an article unless they 'fess up? Is that what you are saying? KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 19:20, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You are overstating your case. The position you are advocating so actively here is not one that is universally held. This is an active debate between people who are notable discussants in the field of healthcare policy. It is not our place to take sides. It is just ludicrous to insert pejoratives and lurid language into articles in an encyclopedia. And don't reinsert unsourced claims into a BLP article, as you did in your reversion. DickClarkMises (talk) 19:22, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not overstating my case at all. I'm asking if that's what you're saying. You said "it isn't the place of the encyclopedia to say someone was acting intentionally deceptive unless they cop to it." and I'm asking, are you serious? "they cop to it" sounds like you think they have to confess before we can put it in Wikipedia. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 19:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Please don't be needlessy obtuse about this. You claimed that Gratzer's statistics had been "universally declared false." This is (1) impossible to prove or verify, and (2) easily proved false by the existence of multiple independent reliable sources that argue otherwise. And to respond to your question, I am talking about what can be said in the encyclopedic voice as uncontroversial fact. Controversial assertions, especially in BLP articles, should always be carefully attributed to their source. I really don't think that I am saying anything that you don't know here. This article appropriately notes that McCaughey is a controversial figure who has been the subject of many critical articles. We shouldn't go beyond this to call her a liar or anything else in the encyclopedic voice. DickClarkMises (talk) 19:32, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I assure you, I am not being "needlessly obtuse" I am attempting to ensure I comprehend your meaning. Do you, or do you not, think that the subject should confess to making false statements before we place any content wherein a reliable source states the subject did make false statements? Its a yes or no question. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 19:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In an article about a living person, where the subject of the article is accused of intentionally deceiving her readers, I would say that this accusation, if relatively notable in the context of the article subject's life, would often be useful to cover if it could be covered in a neutral, encyclopedic manner using reliable sources. I don't think the encyclopedia should ever take sides in an ongoing dispute between living persons. DickClarkMises (talk) 19:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've requested comment at the BLP Noticeboard here: Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. DickClarkMises (talk) 20:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed content
I did not write this; I restored after removal by DCM with complaints of BLP violations, which these are clearly not. Page blanking, in whole or in part, is vandalism. We shall presume he did not intend such. As he now has amended his complaint to "unsupported by cites" (although inaccurately calling the content "my" content) I have placed the removed bit here for examination, vetting, and hopefully improvement. "In October 2007, Republican presidential front-runner Rudy Giuliani's health care advisor, Canadian psychiatrist and Manhattan Institute senior fellow David Gratzer—identified as the source of false and misleading cancer 'survival rates' repeated by Giuliani for three months and then in a radio ad attacking Democratic health care reform proposals as 'socialized medicine' —cited the NCPA's Goodman and McCaughey's NCPA Brief Analysis as other 'experts' using his method of calculating 'survival rates' from cancer mortality and incidence statistics. The Washington Post and blp=yes|FactCheck.org consulted cancer experts and statisticians who found no merit in Gratzer's claims and called calculations such as those by Goodman, Gratzer, O'Neill, and McCaughey 'complete nonsense' and 'a very dangerous thing to do' for which 'you would get an F in epidemiology.'"

"Following a September 2007 McCaughey Wall Street Journal op-ed column attacking the American Cancer Society's Access to Care initiative, libertarian economist John Goodman, co-founder and president of the conservative National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA), asked McCaughey to expand her op-ed into a NCPA Brief Analysis giving her calculations of cancer 'survival rates' from a NBER Working Paper by Republican free-market economist June O'Neill and McCaughey's analysis of a Lancet Oncology article comparing estimated five-year relative survival rates for sixteen types of cancer in parts of Europe and the United States. In October 2007, Republican presidential front-runner Rudy Giuliani's health care advisor, Canadian psychiatrist and Manhattan Institute senior fellow David Gratzer—identified as the source of false and misleading cancer 'survival rates' repeated by Giuliani for three months and then in a radio ad attacking Democratic health care reform proposals as 'socialized medicine' —cited the NCPA's Goodman and McCaughey's NCPA Brief Analysis as other 'experts' using his method of calculating 'survival rates' from cancer mortality and incidence statistics. The Washington Post and FactCheck.org consulted cancer experts and statisticians who found no merit in Gratzer's claims and called calculations such as those by Goodman, Gratzer, O'Neill, and McCaughey 'complete nonsense' and 'a very dangerous thing to do' for which 'you would get an F in epidemiology.'"

Discussion here, please. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 15:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, it looks like the content mentions "McCaughey's October 2007 NCPA Brief Analysis" but doesn't give the refs for that, which are (taken from the Gratzer article). KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 16:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

 * I've added the new refs. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 11:49, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Ver2 is another version I pulled from history, which is fully sourced. I have removed editorial like commentary from one of the refs. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 11:57, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

 * The paragraph above about Gratzer's statistics cites two sources (from Washington Post and FactCheck.org) which mention neither McCaughey nor her organizations. I have removed it as criticism of a living person that does not cite reliable sources for the claims about this article's subject. Saying that the criticism in these sources applies to McCaughey's independent research is clearly original research that is unsupported by the sources cited. According to WP:BLP, editors are to [r]emove any unsourced material to which a good faith editor objects; or which is a conjectural interpretation of a source... I am not sure what you might call this info as applied to McCaughey except for "conjectural interpretation of" a couple of sources. And KC, when you reinsert content, it is perfectly accurate to call the version that you instated "your version" regardless of whether you originally created the content at issue. DickClarkMises (talk) 12:10, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You keep citing BLP no matter what the edit. I have no issue with you removing that content as UNDUE, but its not a BLP violation, and you calling it such does not make it so. Its tendentious of you to try to claim BLP for each and every one of your edits. Just because the article you are editing is a BLP does not mean every edit you make is magically protected under BLP policy. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 13:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * KC, I just quoted what I believe to be a relevant portion of the BLP policy. Please explain why you believe that my interpretation of this portion of the policy is irrelevant or inapplicable here. Your meta-analysis of my editing/conversational style is irrelevant to our discussion here, which is about the Wikipedia article about Betsy McCaughey. Arguments should be posed against positions, not people. I would very much like to engage you in a respectful discussion about your repeated insertions of what I believe to be inappropriate, biased language in the article. On this issue specifically, I am not sure why you think WP:UNDUE would be more applicable here. The sources do not even mention McCaughey. Thus, extending the criticisms contained in those sources to apply to McCaughey would not merely be a matter of giving undue weight to a particular source or point of view, but would be either conjecture on our part as to the intent of the respective authors of the two cited sources, or would be a synthesis of those criticisms and other sources (namely, the Gratzer defense) that compare Gratzer's data with McCaughey's. That seems to me to be the major problem with citing them for criticism of McCaughey. DickClarkMises (talk) 13:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

 * DickClarkMises asked me to give an opinion, which is to his credit as I usually disagree with him. Before getting into this particular dispute, I'll first say that I read over the artile and I think it's far too detailed in some areas. Whether the subject bought or rented an apartment hardly seems important - who cares? Given the subject's notability, I'd cut a quarter of this article at least.
 * Getting to this immediate dispute, the subject is now a pundit, which is a group of professional opinion makers. They earn thir livings by having strident or interesting opinions. It's their job to have an opinion on every topic, and to keep it fresh every day. The opinions of pundits are notable only when noted in reliable sources. ("If a tree falls....") This particular material doens't appear biographical, but rather concerns the veracity or falsity of the subject's columns. We're not here to determine that. I suggest trimming the whole thing substantially.   Will Beback    talk    09:04, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I quite agree. However, just because there is a lot of fluff and UNDUE in this article does not make it "BLP" edits, as I noted above. FYI, I have not bothered to read DCM's very long post above. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 13:27, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've removed some of the biographical material, about housing and such, that I agree seems uninteresting. I think much more should be trimmed, per Will's comment above. I would suggest that we cover McCaughey's pieces where they have been the subject of debate or commentary in third-party sources, citing McCaughey's own work for context as necessary. However, as Will says, we aren't in the business of determining who is right and who is wrong. On a different note, I am confused by the selection of the articles in the "Opinion columnist" section. The article text seems to claim that McCaughey's writing in those years was limited to the articles listed. I don't think this is correct, and in fact I am not sure why those particular articles were selected. What do other folks think about trimming that section substantially? As for the statistics claims, I still don't see a reliable source in there that mentions McCaughey having used the same statistical methods as Gratzer. We can't simultaneously claim that a) Gratzer is bad at statistics, and b) Gratzer is qualified to say who else uses statistical methodologies that are like his. DickClarkMises (talk) 17:44, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

McCaughey's notoriety fifteen years ago—and today—is due to conservative media, conservative think tanks and Republican politicians not treating her as a pundit, but instead treating her as a health care expert and scholar, and treating her opinions as facts.

The updated "selection" of McCaughey's writings cited in "Opinion columnist" section are all of McCaughey's published work from 1989 through August 1994.

McCaughey's entire (relatively limited) published work prior to her 1994 TNR article "No Exit" is cited to:
 * provide background on her health care expertise
 * provide background on The Village Voice investigation of McCaughey's scholarly career

The 2007 use of false and misleading cancer "survival rates" by Rudy Giuliani and David Gratzer during the 2008 U.S. presidential campaign was the most widely-covered extended episode of scaremongering about "socialized medicine" since McCaughey's 1994 "No Exit" scaremongering about "socialized medicine"—until McCaughey's 2009 scaremongering about "socialized medicine."

 * It is notable, and was noted, that when David Gratzer was found to have calculated false and misleading cancer survival rates, Gratzer's response was to link to McCaughey's NCPA opinion article about cancer survival rates.
 * It is not inappropriate to note that the McCaughey NCPA opinion article linked to by Gratzer in defense of his calculating "survival rates" from cancer mortality and incidence statistics, also calculated "survival rates" from cancer mortality and incidence statistics, and it is not inappropriate to note that cancer experts and statisticians consulted by The Washington Post and FactCheck.org called calculations of "survival rates" from cancer mortality and incidence statistics "complete nonsense" and "a very dangerous thing to do."
 * McCaughey continues to repeat claims from her NCPA opinion article about cancer survival rates:
 * e.g. last week on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart:
 * August 20, 2009: Exclusive - Betsy McCaughey Extended Interview Pt. 2 (00:49–01:19 / 08:08).
 * e.g. today (August 27, 2009) on page A15 of The Wall Street Journal:
 * Obama's Health Rationer-in-Chief: White House health-care adviser Ezekiel Emanuel blames the Hippocratic Oath for the 'overuse' of medical care.
 * the latest of McCaughey's never-ending series of misleading op-eds viciously smearing the reputation of medical oncologist Ezekiel Emanuel:"Dr. Emanuel's assessment of American medical care is summed up in a Nov. 23, 2008, Washington Post op-ed he co-authored: 'The United States is No. 1 in only one sense: the amount we shell out for health care. We have the most expensive system in the world per capita, but we lag behind many developed nations on virtually every health statistic you can name.'

This is untrue, though sadly it's parroted at town-hall meetings across the country. Moreover, it's an odd factual error coming from an oncologist. According to an August 2009 report from the National Bureau of Economic Research, patients diagnosed with cancer in the U.S. have a better chance of surviving the disease than anywhere else."apparently referencing NBER Working Paper 15213 Low life expectancy in the United States: Is the health care system at fault? by University of Pennsylvania Professor of Demography and Sociology Samuel H. Preston and University of Pennsylvania undergraduate student Jessica Y. Ho, the title page of which says:"This research was supported by the U.S. Social Security Administration through grant #10-M-98363-1-01 to the National Bureau of Economic Research as part of the SSA Retirement Research Consortium. The findings and conclusions expressed are solely those of the authors and do not represent the views of SSA, any agency of the Federal Government, or the NBER." Apatens (talk) 22:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Apatens, this assertion in the article of Gratzer's statistics being relevant in McCaughey's biography seems like original research. Do we have any reliable sources that make this connection, or are we relying on Gratzer's expert opinion? If you say that Gratzer is not a reliable source on healthcare statistics, how can he be a reliable source on what sort of methodology Betsy McCaughey used in her analysis? DickClarkMises (talk) 04:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

So she uses primary sources
I'd like Apatens to explain here why it's important to point out that her experience as an 18th century historian was critical in her obtaining primary source documents, such as a draft of a health care reform plan. Any one in politics who isn't an idiot knows the importance of using primary sources, or in other words, reading the actual bill. I'll keep striking the following portion in bold till Apatens provides an adequate reason to keep it. "'McCaughey, skeptical of what had been reported about the Clinton health plan and accustomed as an 18th century historian to using primary sources,[24] asked for and received a copy of the draft health care reform plan from the office of U.S. Sen. Harris Wofford (D-PA) the following week.[25]'"--Waxsin (talk) 17:27, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

 * If McCaughey was born in the 1700s, I'd say her article needs to be re-written from an entirely different perspective, namely her status as a medical oddity. Arjuna (talk) 19:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

 * It was McCaughey's status as a "scholar" (a specialist in 18th century U.S. constitutional history with no health care policy expertise) who as a "scholar" had read and reread a primary source—the Clinton health care reform plan—and cited page numbers from it, that was cited as qualifying her to analyze health care reform legislation. Apatens (talk) 05:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

 * She has a PhD, which is stated in the article already, and so therefore it should just be inferred that she is intellectually capable of reading and citing primary source documents. Adding the material proposed by Apatens is gratuitous, and seems to be there only to add spurious gravity to her perspective. Arjuna (talk) 06:56, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Random wiki reader here; I came to this article on a google search trying to remember what the article was Ms McCaughey had written. I have to say - the "accustomed... to using primary sources" part stuck out like a sore thumb to me.  I felt like it not only broke the flow of the paragraph, but almost seemed to imply that no one but her, as an 18th century scholar, would think to look at the actual bill. I'm sure that wasn't the intent, but I thought I'd just toss in my impression.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.235.143 (talk) 16:24, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Date of birth
The article currently does not cite any source for her DOB. The NYT article gives a different DOB than that currently mentioned in the article. Accordingly I am deleting the DOB from the article until a source can be cited. In any event it might be better just to leave the day and month out of the article entirely, for reasons of privacy. Moreover, the article quotes Tom Wolfe saying that in 1994, McCaughey was "a 35-year-old Cinderella". I guess Wolfe underestimated her age by a decade, but it's confusing to leave that quote in the article without some kind of note mentioning the error. --Citefixer1965 (talk) 01:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think Wolfe's quote is more literary, really, so I am not as concerned about that. I do agree with your having removed the DOB since there seem to be conflicting sources. DickClarkMises (talk) 19:16, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * A preponderance of sources, including the earliest and the six most recent, list October 20, 1948 as McCaughey's date of birth:

 * October 20, 1948 :
 * . (December 1, 1994). "Statewide officers/Government State office". Newsday, p. 237.
 * Tiger, Harriet (ed.) (1995). Who's Who in America, 1996 (50th ed.) New Providence: Marquis Who's Who. ISBN 0837901677, p. 2747.
 * Tiger, Harriet L. (ed.) (1996). Who's Who in America, 1997 (51st ed.) New Providence: Marquis Who's Who. ISBN 0837901758, p. 2808.
 * Tiger, Harriet (ed.) (1997). Who's Who in America, 1998 (52nd ed.) New Providence: Marquis Who's Who. ISBN 0837901839, pp. 2838–9.
 * Tully, Tracey (March 20, 1998). "McCaughey Ross formally launches gubernatorial run." Times Union (Albany), p. B2.
 * . (September 1, 1998). "Facts about Betsy McCaughey Ross." The Associated Press.
 * Perez-Pena, Richard (September 13, 1998). "The Democratic candidates for Governor at a glance." The New York Times, p. 57.
 * Chassie, Karen (ed.) (1998). Who's Who in America, 1999 (53rd ed.) New Providence: Marquis Who's Who. ISBN 083790191X, p. 2927.
 * . October 21, 1998). "Facts about Betsy McCaughey Ross." The Associated Press.
 * Chassie, Karen (ed.) (2004). Who's Who in America, 2005 (59th ed.) New Providence: Marquis Who's Who. ISBN 0837969824, p. 3056.
 * Chassie, Karen (ed.) (2005). Who's Who in America, 2006 (60th ed.) New Providence: Marquis Who's Who. ISBN 0837969905, p. 3080.
 * Chassie, Karen (ed.) (2006). Who's Who in America, 2007 (61st ed.) New Providence: Marquis Who's Who. ISBN 0837970067, p. 2961.

 * October 10, 1948 :
 * Fisher, Ian (January 19, 1995). Taking on a challenge. The New York Times, p. B6.
 * Dao, James (March 3, 1996). An adjutant with attitude: Betsy McCaughey Ross pursues her own agenda. The New York Times, p. 33.
 * Cox, Matthew (September 2, 1998). Countdown to the primary Sept. 15: Pataki feud defines McCaughey Ross race, but Democratic hopeful turns talk to issues. Newsday, p. A06.

 * Apatens (talk) 22:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Health Care Reform Language
With this debate being a hot topic with americans, I think caution should be taken in any language in this section. I can already see POV language creeping in such as "the Pulitzer prize winning fact check site" which is attempting to lend authority through language to Politifact. "fact-check site" would have sufficed here. Max.inglis (talk) 15:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude, if they won a Pulitzer, they have authority, garnered by that accomplishment. There is no "attempt" nor is it "POV" to note it. If you feel it is too much detail, or unnecessary information, then by all means say so, but don't "assume bad faith" and accuse people of POV pushing on such flimsy grounds. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 06:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Its not POV to mention it on the page for Politifact (which I find no mention of there, maybe someone needs to add it), but to put it in here is. Adding extra, flowery and descriptive words to the description of something is an attempt to modify its meaning to the reader, pure and simple. Anyone who hadn't heard of Politifact will be swayed by the language, instead of forming their own opinion. I guess my issue with language of this type is it doesn't lend itself to people forming their own opinion about something through proper research or reading. Yes its too much detail, and it makes the sentence longer and slightly cumbersome. I'm just pointing out weight of language in this situation. It may not have been a conscious action at all sure, but its unneeded. You react like you put that sentence in (I have no idea, haven't checked the edit log). I don't like Mccaughey at all, but we need to keep the language concise. I'm not saying remove it, I'm saying caution should be taken here with such a contentious issue.Max.inglis (talk) 15:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe I did put it in, and I certainly support that content, and for completely different reasons than your foul accusations. You are rather repetitive about "form their own opinion" as though the language violated WP:PEACOCK. Information is not the same as flattering phrasing. The site did receive a Pulitzer; that is not a small thing. As the site uses somewhat vulgar terminology for their ratings of truth - lies, with her statement being "pants on fire" it reads, if one is ignorant of the extremely high reputation of Politifact, as though the site might be an amateur opinion site rather than one of the most highly regarded fact checking organizations extant. I stand by the verbiage of inclusion of "Pulitzer prize winning" as giving clarity as to the weight and veracity of the source. I fail to see how lessening the reader's understanding of the content would in any way improve the article. In short, I disgree. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 16:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Phillip Morris

 * - I do not have the bandwidth to incorporate any of this into the article right now, so I post the link in case others are interested in taking a look. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 06:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Sarah Palin and Health care
The section of Betsy McCaughey's Commentary on 2009 Health Reform contains the following sentences:

Sarah Palin said that Emanuel's philosophy was "downright evil" and tied it to a health care reform end of life counseling provision she claimed would create a "death panel". The nonpartisan Politifact.com Web site described this claim as a "ridiculous falsehood."

None of this has anything to do with Ms. McCaughey and should be removed. That Ms. Palin and Ms. McCaughey share the same views of the 2009 healthcare reforms is irrelevant and OR, the only connection (aside from some editorials connecting the two) is the fact that Michele Bachmann mentions McCaughey and Palin mentions Bachmann. Sticking the two together here is obvious OR and I am going to remove these statements. Bonewah (talk) 16:12, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not OR if the sources describe the connection. If you still feel that Palin's comments don't belong, that's fine, but if you remove them again, please do not also remove material like Politifact directly responding to McCaughey's claims. Gamaliel (talk) 17:26, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I do think it is OR, so I removed it again. Ill go over the sources and see which ones respond to McCaughey's claims and which ones respond to Palin, then re-add them.  I dont recall any of the sources describing the connection, but ill double check.  Bonewah (talk) 17:59, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

 * If the sources say there's a connection, there's no original research being done. This source states that Palin's spokesperson said she was referring to McCaughey's article. Gamaliel (talk) 18:04, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

 * (EC)[facebook 1] mentions Bachmann, but not McCaughey and does not explicitly connect Palin and McCaughey.
 * [facebook 2] mentions Emanuel but again, not McCaughey.
 * [ABC blog] explicitly makes the connection I describe above, but is a blog and, as such, not a reliable source. In any event, it is about Palin, not McCaughey.
 * [the Atlantic] does not mention McCaughey at all.
 * [Salon Op-Ed] does not mention palin, and is an opinion article anyway. This one might be usable in this article, but it is an Op-Ed and is therefor not a reliable source.
 * [Politifact 1] covers Palin, but not McCaughey, no reason for this one to be in this article at all.
 * [Politifact 2] covers McCaughey but not Palin. This one could be in this article somewhere, ill re-add it after im done here.
 * [Politifact 3] Mentions both Palin and McCaughey, but only to say that the claims made by Palin were refuted when they covered McCaughey.

 * Again, I want to re-iterate that just because an op-ed makes the connection between Palin and McCaughey does not mean that we should mention it here, both because op-eds are not wp:RS and because this is an article about McCaughey, not Palin. Bonewah (talk) 18:25, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

 * ABC News is a reliable source written by a professional journalist and the Senior White House Correspondent for ABC News and that certainly is an RS. The Atlantic also makes a direct connection and says that Palin's spokesperson does as well. Sorry, but this is open and shut here. Gamaliel (talk) 18:30, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Concur with Bonewah, and also note that a facebook page as a source is to be generally avoided. I won't go so far as to say its completely disallowable, but its darn close - the page being used is Palin's, which might marginally be used as a source for Palin's statements, but are not official releases, nor can we use them on any other page without running the very close danger of violating OR. Advise sticking to secondary not primary sources when at all possible, people. Salon, OTOH, if not from the opinion page, would be acceptable. As the source given is from the opinion page, its the same as a blog. These are simply not reliable sources. The "ABC" source is not ABC at all, but blog.abc... Another blog, which if used at all should be clearly delineated as the opinion of the author. Is he notable? sorry, missed the second ABC bit. That is a reliable source; is this enough to merit inclusion in this article?  KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 18:34, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Gamaliel, why did you remove my comments here? Here is the comment restored:

 * Ok, Ill buy that connection, but so what? This is an article about McCaughey, not Palin, the fact that one aspect of Palin's views on health care was derived from McCaughey does not necessitate covering Palin's views here. And it most certainly does not necessitate refuting Palin's views via Politifact (the links which dont mention McCaughey at all). I could see a line saying that Palin's views were inspired by McCaughey, with a cite to the Atlantic article. Let me add that and see what you think.

 * The problem I have with the lines in the article is that it goes right from McCaughey's views to Palin's views, then proceeds to cite a bunch of sources that only mention Palin. I agree that being cited as an inspiration by Palin (which McCaughey was) is noteworthy, but its inappropriate to dwell on (and refute via sources) Palin's views in an article about McCaughey. Bonewah (talk) 18:44, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

 * The current edit we have is dubious at best "Betsy McCaughey's statements on H.R. 3200 Advance Care Planning Consultation page 425 and Ezekiel Emanuel led to the death panel controversy.[77][78][79]" which is then backed up by some editorials. We can factually say that Ms. Palin cited Ms. McCaughey, can we really factually say that Ms. McCaughey's statements 'led' to the controversy? For all we know Palin might have cited McCaughey only after being called on her death panel comments, and, more importantly, we cant use editorials as statements of fact.  I think if we are going to mention Palin at all, it should be only what we can factually prove, that she cited McCaughey(as backed up by the Atlantic and ABC) Bonewah (talk) 14:34, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Streamlined article
This article was a bit of a mess - evidently a few editors have been adding as much negative stuff on Betsy McCaughey to this article as they can, especially about her commentary on the Affordable Care Act. I would hardly suggest that criticism doesn't belong on Wikipedia, but this was not very well done:

 * There was some bizarrely sneering language like "In television appearances, McCaughey presents herself and is described as an expert."
 * The intro itself was too long, and starting to itself get into the back-and-forth of how accurate her health care claims have been - this despite that she's had a full career outside of the ACA.
 * Some of the he-said/she-said stuff is clearly synthesis, of the form "McCaughey said this, but some other organization said this instead" - where the other organization never directly mentions McCaughey.
 * A "pants on fire" ratinng from Politifact was described in two separate paragraphs.
 * The fact-checking sites Politifact and FactCheck.org were five times referred to as "independent nonpartisan", obviously to make a point; personally, I think that's five times too many. The fact that these fact-checking sites are not sponsored by one or another political party (which is all that "independent nonpartisan" really means) is hardly noteworthy.

I tried to remove as much of this stuff as I could, to make the article more unbiased and less coatrack-y. I also tried to streamline the wording in general, to make the article more readable. Korny O'Near (talk) 01:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Betsy McCaughey


text:
Elizabeth Jolley

Monica Elizabeth Jolley AO (4 June 1923 – 13 February 2007) was an English-born Australian writer who settled in Western Australia in the late 1950s and forged an illustrious literary career there. She was 53 when her first book was published, and she went on to publish fifteen novels (including an autobiographical trilogy), four short story collections and three non-fiction books, publishing well into her 70s and achieving significant critical acclaim. She was also a pioneer of creative writing teaching in Australia, counting many well-known writers such as Tim Winton among her students at Curtin University.

Her novels explore "alienated characters and the nature of loneliness and entrapment."

Life
Jolley was born in Birmingham, England as Monica Elizabeth Knight, to an English father and Austrian-born mother who was the daughter of a high ranking Railways official. She grew up in the Black Country in the English industrial Midlands. She was educated privately until age 11, when she was sent to Sibford School, a Quaker boarding school near Banbury in Oxfordshire which she attended from 1934 to 1940.

At 17 she began training as an orthopaedic nurse in London and later in Surrey. She began an affair with one of her patients, Leonard Jolley (1914–1994), and subsequently became pregnant. Leonard Jolley was already married to Joyce Jolley, who was also pregnant. Elizabeth moved in with the Jolleys, and her daughter Sarah was born five weeks before the birth of Susan Jolley, the child of Leonard and Joyce.

Elizabeth and Leonard subsequently emigrated to Australia in 1959 after they had married. They eventually had three children and Leonard was appointed chief librarian at the Reid Library at the University of Western Australia, a job he held from 1960 to 1979. Leonard told his family in England that it was Joyce and Susan with whom he had moved to Australia. For several years, Elizabeth wrote letters purportedly from Joyce and Susan to Leonard's British relatives. Leonard eventually asked his former wife to tell their daughter Susan that he had died.

Elizabeth and Leonard lived in the riverside Perth suburb of Claremont. In 1970 they also bought a small orchard in Wooroloo, a town in the Darling Ranges approximately 60 kilometres inland from Perth.

Elizabeth Jolley worked at a variety of jobs including nursing, cleaning, door-to-door sales and running a small poultry farm, and throughout this time she also wrote works of fiction including short stories, plays and novels. Her first book was published in 1976, when she was 53.

From the late 1970s, she taught writing at the Western Australian Institute of Technology, later Curtin University, and one of her students was another Australian novelist, Tim Winton. Her students have won many prizes including "several Australian/Vogel Awards (for a first novel), several different Premier's Awards, the Commonwealth Poetry Prize and the Miles Franklin Award".

She developed dementia in 2000, and died in a nursing home in Perth in 2007. Her death prompted many tributes in newspapers across Australia, and in The Guardian in the United Kingdom. Her diaries, stored at the Mitchell Library in Sydney, will be closed until after the deaths of her children or 25 years after her death.

Andrew Riemer, the Sydney Morning Herald's chief book reviewer, wrote in his obituary for her, "Jolley could assume any one of several personas – the little old lady, the Central European intellectual, the nurse, the orchardist, the humble wife, the university teacher, the door-to-door salesperson – at the drop of a hat, usually choosing one that would disconcert her listeners, but hold them in fascination as well".

On 16 November 2007, the performance of Johannes Brahms's A German Requiem by the West Australian Symphony Orchestra, chorus and soloists, under conductor Lothar Zagrosek, was dedicated to Jolley, for whom the Requiem had been a great source of joy and inspiration.

Literary career
Jolley began writing early in her twenties, but was not recognised until much later. She had many rejections by publishers, 39 in one year alone. Delys Bird suggests that it was the post-modern features of her writing – "motifs repeated within and between novels and short stories, self-reflexivity and open-endedness" – that made it hard for them to be published at that time. She suggests that her eventual success owes a little to "the 1980s awareness of 'women's writing'", which had been catapulted to the mainstream after the success of other Australian female writers such as Helen Garner and Germaine Greer.

In the 1960s some of her stories were accepted by the BBC World Service and Australian journals, but her first book Five Acre Virgin was not published until 1976. Soon following were Woman in a Lampshade and Palomino, but it would not be until much later that these books would receive either positive reviews or high circulation.

She lapsed in her writing, discouraged by earlier failures, and was only to be published again in 1983 with Miss Peabody's Inheritance and Mr Scobie's Riddle. The latter won The Age Book of the Year and high acclaim, especially in Australia and the United States. A year later, Milk and Honey was awarded Christina Stead Prize for fiction in the New South Wales Premier's Literary Awards. In 1986, The Well won the top Australian literary prize – the Miles Franklin Award. The Sugar Mother was, as Riemer writes, "her characteristically idiosyncratic way of fulfilling a commission to write a novel commemorating the bicentenary of 1988".

Later in her career she wrote an autobiographical fiction trilogy, My Father's Moon (1989), Cabin Fever (1990) and The Georges’ Wife (1993). In an article in The Age newspaper, 20 February 2007, written after her death, literary critic Peter Craven, was reported as saying, "She was a master of black comedy and she went on to write a wholly different form of autobiographical fiction that was lucid, luminous and calm".

Lovesong, her third last novel, is, Riemer suggests, "the riskiest book she wrote". It deals with the subject of paedophilia and demonstrates "an admirable refusal to be deflected from what she must have seen as the demands of her art and vocation".

In 1993, a diary she kept before her novels were published which recorded the experience of buying a hobby farm was published as Diary of a Weekend Farmer. A partly autobiographical collection of pieces, Central Mischief, appeared in 1992. She also wrote numerous radio plays broadcast by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, and several of her poetic works were published in journals and anthologies during the 1980s and 1990s.

Jolley was made a professor of Creative Writing at Curtin University in 1998.

On 8 February 2008, Curtin University Library launched the online Elizabeth Jolley Research Collection, a virtual research centre for scholars interested in studying her and her work.

Awards and nominations

 * 1983: The Age Book of the Year Award for Mr Scobie's Riddle
 * 1983: Western Australian Premier's Book Awards for ''Mr Scobie's Riddle'
 * 1985: New South Wales Premier's Literary Awards, Christina Stead Prize for Fiction for Milk and Honey
 * 1986: Miles Franklin Award for The Well
 * 1987: Western Australia Citizen of the Year
 * 1988: Officer of the Order of Australia (AO) for services to literature
 * 1988: Western Australian Institute of Technology Honorary Doctorate
 * 1989: The Age Book of the Year Award, winner for My Father's Moon
 * 1989: Canada/Australia Literary Award
 * 1993: The Age Book of the Year Award, winner for The Georges' Wife
 * 1993: Western Australian Premier's Book Awards, Premier's prize for Central Mischief
 * 1994: National Book Council Award, Banjo for The Georges' Wife
 * 1995: Macquarie University Honorary Doctorate
 * 1997: Australian Living Treasure
 * 1997: University of Queensland Honorary Doctorate
 * 1998: Miles Franklin Award shortlist for Lovesong

Novels

 * Palomino (1980)
 * The Newspaper of Claremont Street (1981)
 * Miss Peabody's Inheritance (1983)
 * Mr Scobie's Riddle (1983)
 * Milk and Honey (1984)
 * Foxybaby (1985)
 * The Well (1986)
 * The Sugar Mother (1988)
 * My Father's Moon (1989)
 * Cabin Fever (1990)
 * The Georges' Wife (1993)
 * The Orchard Thieves (1995)
 * Lovesong (1997)
 * An Accommodating Spouse (1999)
 * An Innocent Gentleman (2001)

Short stories and plays

 * Five Acre Virgin and Other Stories (1976)
 * The Well-Bred Thief (1977)
 * The Travelling Entertainer and Other Stories (1979)
 * Woman in a Lampshade (1983)
 * Off the Air: Nine Plays for Radio (1995)
 * Fellow Passengers: Collected Stories of Elizabeth Jolley (1997)

Non-fiction

 * Central Mischief: Elizabeth Jolley on Writing, Her Past and Herself (1992)
 * Diary of a Weekend Farmer (1993)
 * Learning to Dance: Elizabeth Jolley: Her Life and Work (2006)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Elizabeth Jolley