text:
A29 road

The A29 is a main road in England in Surrey and chiefly in West Sussex that runs for 34.4 mi.

Route
The road starts at the Beare Green roundabout with the A24 in Capel, south of Dorking. It passes minor villages, bypasses Billingshurst and crosses Pulborough not on its major axis. The A29 then crosses the South Downs at Bury Hill and passes Fontwell Park Racecourse before terminating on the B2259 in Bognor Regis.

For long-distance travel, the route is not a trunk road, as designated by National Highways and as such is of standard road width, often alongside hedges and open fields. Portsmouth and Guildford for example, 15 mi and points along the route, are served by the four-to six-lane A3 trunk road.

From Capel to Hardham, south of Pulborough, the road with notable deviations follows the path of one of the multiple Roman roads with the name Stane Street, the Middle English and Old English for Stone Street due to the remaining building materials.

A narrow-gauge railway was built to construct the Dorking Bypass section.

title: A29 road


text: User talk:80.103.88.234

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:80.103.88.234


text: Category:Vietnamese mathematicians

title: Category:Vietnamese mathematicians


text: User talk:70.144.137.169

title: User talk:70.144.137.169


text:
Talk:Nottingham High School

Assess
This is a very good page that should be B but gets a "start". Its fairly subjective. Lists are over 30% bwhich is not good. Maybe MId importance due to alumni and age (but Ive made it high). Main problem is references. You need to check you have all alumni.... where is Henry Garnet who presumably went here? When you have used the ref and references tags about 20 or 30 times then we'll give you a B..... this should be a featured page! Victuallers 09:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Henry Garnett is a tricky one - his father Brian was certainly headmaster (from 1565 until possibly as late as 1575) but it's not clear whether Henry actually studied at the school. It is known that he started at Winchester College in 1567, and it seems likely that he would have studied at NHS during his father's tenure until he left for Winchester, but there seems to be no documented evidence of this. -- Nicholas Jackson 22:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC) ... thsats interesting! add it to the article Victuallers 11:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC) Is it possible that NHS removed any evidence? Victuallers 11:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

You need to add some references... this should be a well rated page ... enough about ties! Victuallers 09:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC) Well done Nick ... a B. Some more to add. Suggest also "folding" long lists into 2 or 3 cols to make neater Victuallers 22:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, NHS does have quite a complex system of ties, and an article about the school should include that information. Do you have any specific objections?

 * As to references, there have as far as I know been two books written about the history of the school. The first was essentially an edited version of the PhD thesis of Dr Adam W Thomas, who taught history at the school during the 1950s - there should be a copy in the school library (there were about a dozen in the archives, together with the original typed manuscript, when I was there in the 1980s).  The second, published in 1989, was written by Stuart Brocklehurst, a sixth-form pupil at the school, and gives a summary of the contents of Thomas' book and then an account of the subsequent three decades.  This latter book is quite readable, informative and well-written (although it pains me slightly to admit it because the author and I never entirely got along).  I guess the other obvious source material would be back issues of the Nottinghamian (the school magazine) and the school class lists, the most complete collection of which will be in the school archives.  Unfortunately, there are a number of facts in the article for which formal citations either don't exist or would be difficult to find - for example, everybody called the 'Lovell Order' tie the 'grovel order' (even those of us who got them) but I doubt very much that there's any official written record of this. -- Nicholas Jackson 19:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Ties and refs
I have added a ref to the adams book which I founbd via Google. Also try "Google Books" as that may include more substantive evidence. Ties do seem to be an interesting aspect. I was only making the point that without refs then stuff may get deleted. For instance it is likely that every school that has included a slang session will get it deleted .... because as you point out, you cannot find a ref and if you can't prove it then ultimately its out. Hope this helps, if not then come back for more. NHS should be in the top UK articles. Oh I noticed that Mellers started the school and then "starred" in DHL's book. Is that a coincidence? Victuallers 21:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I'd assumed that Dr Thomas' book was a private publication and hence effectively impossible to get hold of, but ABEBooks turned up several second-hand copies so I bought one, along with a pamphlet (an offprint of an article in the Transactions of the Thoroton Society) by Cedric Reynolds on the history of the school buildings. I'll read through both of them and add some proper references to the article. Thanks to Victuallers for inspiring me to hunt down a copy (of both). -- Nicholas Jackson 22:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
Has no one got around to making a full page on this? Come on ONs of the world, surely we can do better than this? Does someone have copy of that old history of the school?

--Evil Capitalist 12:43, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, I still go to NHS, so, summing up all my dregs of pride for coopers house, and the school, I might just expand it. --Chachu207 17:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Could whoever removed the Mock Elections section please provide justification for simply deleting it rather than improving the entry in line with Wikipedia guidelines. It's incontrovertible fact, too small to justify its own page, and a valid improvement to this one. Official guidelines follow:

Please do not remove content from Wikipedia; it is considered vandalism. If you want to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Lafarge 14:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Just added in a paragraph about the Music School as this seems to have been overlooked.

''Officers of the School, in addition to the Prefects' tie, are presented with a separate tie which is black with red stripes bordered by white stripes and has the School Crest on it. This is to distinguish their seniority within the School.''

Thanks to John Smith for that. Interesting - I think this a relatively recent change (ie, less than fifteen years' old). Does it have the school crest or the coat of arms, though? They're different things - the crest is a red squirrel holding a duke's coronet (a squirrel sejant gules holding a ducal coronet or) while the coat of arms is the full thing (there used to be a big wooden carving of it hanging above the stage in the assembly (John Player) hall - Nicholas Jackson 13:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The carving is still in the Player Hall and is the full coat of arms however recently (2007), the school has come to using just the shield with the motto at the bottom. This is mostly the case on all the letterheads.Bthebest

I'm a little distressed that the name 'Djanogly' does not appear a single time on the page, it really should be remedied - Chewwy 14:31, 01 June 2006 (UTC)

Nicholas Jackson: The new tie was introduced this year as a result of a new system for the selection of Prefects being introduced.--JohnSmith123456 09:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting - thanks for that. I'm fairly sure the Third XV, Officers and Junior School Centenary ties weren't around when I was there, either (1981-1991).  Do we know why the rugby third XV get a special tie all of their own?  Re prefects:  It used to be the case that sometime during the first year sixth form, about half to two-thirds of the year were appointed house (junior) prefects.  At the time, it seemed like an honour, but in retrospect it was primarily a mechanism for getting the older pupils to do various boring tasks (stopping first-fifth formers from loitering indoors during break and lunchtime, showing visitors round, etc) so that the teachers didn't have to. Then sometime during the second year sixth form, about fifteen or twenty of the house prefects were promoted to school (senior) prefects.  I gather from the article that now most of the junior prefects are promoted in due course - is this correct? Nicholas Jackson 12:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The Junior School's centenary tie was introduced last year (because of the centenary). Well its all changed recently Prefects wise. In the past just a small number of Assistant Prefects have been appointed in the Autumn term (about 20) and would then be appointed, normally without exception, full Prefects in the Summer term of that same academic year. They would be joined also by 20 other boys who had shown merit since the original appointments and be made Prefects as well leaving a total of 40 Prefects for the following academic year. Now, boys nominate themselves to be Prefects on the agreement that they will participate on duties and indicate a time when they will be available to assist staff. This year about 80 boys nominated themselves (meaning a lot of Prefects!) This occurs in the Autumn term and they begin their duties in the Spring. In the Summer term they are appointed full Prefects to take over the outgoing year. The third XV tie was introduced by Jim Cook and Ken Clayton and funded from the Biology Department, so that boy's at lower levels could receive recognition for their contributions to sport, where other boys receive full colour's. Hope that helps. Any more questions and I would be happy to help! --20:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)JohnSmith123456

Does anyone happen to know which Professor Freeman FRS is an ON? The Royal Society's directory lists two Professors Freeman, Kenneth and Raymond (and also a Dr Matthew Freeman) and it's not clear which of them is the right one. -- Nicholas Jackson 15:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind - the December 1987 Nottinghamian indicates it's Raymond. -- Nicholas Jackson 09:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I notice that Dr Witcombe is now listed as 'Sir Dennis Trevor Witcombe' in the list of headmasters. Is this true? I can't find any reference to him being knighted (there's no mention of it on the school's website, for example) so unless anyone can provide some sort of citation, I'll remove it. -- Nicholas Jackson 22:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I noticed some changes have been made to the senior staff list. In particular I don't think the Head of Sixth Form should be mentioned because then you can justify adding heads of other years, so i'll remove it unless anyone strongly disagrees. The list of housemasters is probably all right but if anyone objects to it i will support it. -- Bthebest 17:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

 * When I added the Head of Sixth Form, the list was of the "Senior Management Team", of which he is a member. And, arguably, he is as or more important than other members of staff mentioned on the list (university admissions and so on). But I'll leave it up to you to decide... Dafyd 22:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Coat of Arms
I've reverted some recent changes to the section on the school's coat of arms, because I believe them to be incorrect. The school arms are as described in the heraldic blazon in that section ("Ermine, a lozenge argent...") and may not legally be altered without permission from the College of Arms (who ultimately represent the Sovereign in English and Welsh heraldic matters). To redesign it and claim it's ok because it's merely a new 'logo' (which the reverted edits seemed to be suggesting) is on decidedly shaky ground - certainly when the new 'logo' is to all intents and purposes a coat of arms.-- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 22:51, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The School's coat of arms has not changed and the coat of arms are still used on school publications. However, there are occasions when the new logo is used instead, this is not a coat of arms. The suggestion that this is illegal is contentious at best and such legal charges should not be made on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.40.232 (talk) 09:33, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

First of all, I'm a mathematician, not a lawyer, and any opinions on legality are merely speculations gleaned from a long-term interest in heraldry, and conversation with a couple of friends who know more about this subject than I do.

But, from my lay understanding of the subject, the problem is that in the UK you're not, strictly speaking, allowed to unilaterally make changes to a coat of arms without the permission of the relevant heraldic authority - in England and Wales this is the College of Arms, in Scotland it's the Court of the Lord Lyon. In practice, this sort of behaviour goes completely unchallenged in England and Wales - the High Court of Chivalry has sat once in the last few hundred years, and that was about sixty years ago. (In Scotland, things are treated more strictly: the Lord Lyon is a judge and his pronouncements have legal force, with criminal penalties for those who fail to obey; typically he issues a few judgements a year.)

Things you are allowed to do include: displaying just the shield on its own, displaying just the crest on its own (which is what the design on the Founder's tie is), or applying to the College for a grant of a badge (it's quite possible that the school already has one - you'd have to check the original letters patent to make sure) which may be a simplified design based on the full arms and which may be used in more general circumstances than the full arms themselves.

Now if I understand you correctly, the school's position is that the coat of arms hasn't been altered, but instead a new 'logo' has been designed incorporating elements of the arms themselves. In principle this is ok (and is done all the time by armigerous companies and other organisations), except that the logo currently in use is indistinguishable from a coat of arms, so I'd argue that regardless of the original intention (which I'm happy to accept was well-meant and done in ignorance of the, frankly, obscure technicalities of heraldic law) what the school has in effect done is to redesign the coat of arms. It's a bit of a legal grey area, but I suspect the basic principle is that "if it looks like a coat of arms, then it is, and is therefore subject to the relevant jurisdiction". Not, as mentioned earlier, that this will result in any legal or other sanctions from the College of Arms (although if you were in Scotland then things would be more serious).

I guess my dismay results from the fact that while I was a pupil at the school (1981–1991), certain values were emphasised, including the importance of doing things properly, and having respect for tradition. The way this new logo has been introduced seems to fly somewhat in the face of those values. I'll see if I can come up with a less contentious wording, anyway (although not all of the phrasing was mine anyway). -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 12:33, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Thus, it appears that we are discussing a law which has not been used for over 60 years and even then it may still be alright if the School has a badge which neither of us can verify. You also agreee that a logo is acceptable. Thus, I would say that this is a somewhat obscure point. From my own viewpoint, the School still very much shares the values you speak of and tradition is still very much part of the School life in so many ways (e.g. House system, Founder's Day, Speech Day etc). The suggestion that the school does not want to do things properly is again very contentious - such public slurs surely have no place here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.40.232 (talk) 09:52, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

That wasn't quite what I said. You're not supposed to redesign a coat of arms - this is not allowed without the permission of the relevant heraldic authority (which ultimately derives from the Crown). You're pretty much guaranteed to get away with it, though (at least in England and Wales, but not Scotland) because the College (unlike Lyon Court) don't enforce this. In fact, if you read Adam Thomas' book on the history of the school, it turns out that the school used the Mellers arms for quite some time without permission, the situation finally being sorted out in the late 1940s when the school applied for a proper grant of its own arms. But the fact that you'll almost certainly get away with it doesn't make it morally ok.

I agree that a logo would be entirely acceptable, except (as is the case here) where the logo is clearly just a coat of arms. If the new logo had been three stylised blackbirds in a red circle, for example, that would have been absolutely fine. But when the 'logo' is a shield, with a motto, containing heraldic charges identical to those on the actual coat of arms, well, at that point you've strayed into heraldic territory and are supposed to follow correct heraldic procedure: a logo that looks like a coat of arms is de facto a coat of arms, regardless of what you choose to call it.

I'd be interested to know if the school has a badge, though. This will be stated on the original letters patent from 1949, which are presumably locked away in a bank vault somewhere. My guess would be that if a badge has been granted, it will involve the three blackbirds from the Mellers arms. These days, a separate grant of a badge will cost about £1000, which sounds a lot but is a tiny fraction of what would be charged by a modern corporate image design consultancy (and will be far more tastefully executed).

In the grand scheme of things, of course, this isn't particularly important, and I think you're reading rather more into my comments than I intended. Certainly, no slur on the school's character was intended (and, to be honest, I can't quite see how you managed to interpret my remarks in that light). The original wording wasn't all due to me, anyway - indeed, on at least a couple of occasions I've reverted much stronger wording introduced by other editors (possibly themselves members of the school). Anyway, bearing in mind that this is supposed to be a neutral encyclopaedia entry and not merely publicity material for the school, are you now happy with the current wording? -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 11:50, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

The school has no legal right to use the new 'logo' as no doubt some of the more traditionalist former members of staff would have argued. I'm intrigued to know which current staff-member keeps making changes to the article. Nottmlad (talk) 01:35, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The original change was by a user named Kerryturner; the school's current director of ICT has the same name. I'm also assuming (from writing style and similarity of comments) that the anonymous editor above is the same person. I think I prefer your wording to mine - it makes it clearer that the new 'logo' contravenes heraldic law. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 08:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Reassessed C class
This is a notable school and its article should reflect the quality  of its education. Although it  includes most  of the necessary  elements for a complete school  article, it clearly  needs copyediting  to introduce a more encyclopedic tone, and removal  of some trivia and long  lists. Please address these issues if you can. I might fix it  myself, but  not  until I've finished rewrites of other school articles on  my  todo  list. Kudpung (talk | contribs) at 11:34, 25 June 2010.

Notability
Very little of this text seems notable in any way. School pages suffer from endemic promotional text, text about non-notable teachers and pupils and are often filled with weasel words. I'm going to have a scan through this and remove some parts which may be a little less contentious. If nobody objects soon, I'll have a more thorough edit of it. Mtaylor848 (talk) 12:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I have done this, however I still think a lot of the content is not worthy of note and can be removed. I shall attend to it later if there are no objections. Mtaylor848 (talk) 13:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

 * I object, and have reverted all of your edits. Yes, there's much in there that could certainly do with being pruned, but we should discuss it first.  Also, what happened to the image of the school's real coat of arms?  Someone seems to have deleted it recently. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 15:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

another view
Some confusion here over the meaning of notability. Notability applies to the article as a whole. I cannot believe that anyone thinks a 500 year old school with a number of notable ex students including several people involved in the 1605 Gunpowder plot is not notable. What I think is being discussed is whether the stuff that is written is noteworthy. It is true that "School pages suffer from endemic promotional text, text about non-notable teachers and pupils and are often filled with weasel words".... but IMO this is not one of them/the worst offender. By all means debate a sentence here, an emphasis there, maybe even the occasional half para, but if we are looking for stuff to delete then there are richer and thicker seams of stuff to be deleted. Please discuss! Victuallers (talk) 14:31, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think there's a load of stuff in this article that could be trimmed or made more concise, and even a fair amount that could probably be cut (the last ten years' Wheeler Cup results, for example). But yesterday's edits were a bit overzealous, and I think we should discuss any major deletions before doing them, not least because it's easier to prune unnecessary material than it is to restore it. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 18:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

P.S. And the weird stuff about ties?? ... that's surely so geeky that it is noteworthy. Most tie shops would care less about the subject. That is interesting IMO Victuallers (talk) 14:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The section on ties could probably be shortened a bit, but it's an important part of the school's traditions, so I think it should stay. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 18:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Hopefully the two of you can make this a "Good Article". Find your consensus. The school deserves to have that accolade. Victuallers (talk) 19:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Notability applies to the article as a whole, yes, but that doesn't mean the content can be anything and everything. Policies such as WP:UNDUE, WP:V and so on come into play. It also doesn't matter if there are other articles in a worse condition. The trimmed version of the article is far better. There is no reason for the whole of the school hymn to be included or for 770 words on prefects, or the individuals who have won the Wheeler Cup for the last 10 years and so on. Quantpole (talk) 10:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

 * and the consensus/compromise you suggest is? Victuallers (talk) 11:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, you can add me to the list of editors in favour of a sever pruning. As I mentioned in my post above, if my comments hadn't sparked off some reaction, I was going to come back and do some radical editing (read pruning) myself.--Kudpung (talk) 12:12, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest that those who want to include such material have the burden to show that it should be included. Quantpole (talk) 13:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify my position: I agree that the article is rather rambling and unfocused, and could do with a severe tidying. I further agree that most of the stuff that's been deleted shouldn't really be in the article, either because it's not very interesting or because it's insufficiently sourced. All I was saying is that it's probably easier to decide what should go, and then delete it, than to delete a load of stuff and decide whether any of it should be put back. Also, I was uneasy about what seemed to be a lone editor dropping in, deleting half the text and then disappearing. But if everyone else thinks we should do the deletion first and then maybe put some carefully chosen bits back, then I guess I'm ok with that.

So, for reference (and hopefully discussion), here's the list of things that have gone:
 * The correct coat of arms - this image seems to have been deleted, possibly due to questions over its copyright status, although if that's the reason it's unclear why the incorrect, bastardised version is still there: either both of them are in breach of copyright or neither is. I can scan in a replacement if necessary, although it might be better if someone with more artistic talent than me could prepare a free depiction of the arms instead.  It's certainly not ok to have only the incorrect version displayed.
 * A section on the Founder's Day service . I think this is a fairly important bit of school history and tradition, although the original version was a bit long and could certainly be trimmed.
 * The school hymn . Again, it's a moderately important bit of school tradition, but (a) I'm pretty sure it's not as old as one might expect (I believe it dates back to the middle of the 20th century) and (b) I thought it was dull when I had to sing it, and I still do twenty years later.  I won't argue strenuously if someone else wants to put it back, but I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over its omission.
 * Information about prefects . There should probably be a short paragraph explaining the appointment and duties of the prefects, and maybe a couple of sentences about how things were done in earlier times (corporal punishment, etc) but I don't think we need a lengthy excerpt from the 1907 Prefects' Minute Book, as interesting as some of it might be.
 * Wheeler Cup results . Incomplete, not very interesting, and can probably be dispensed with.
 * Ties . Personally, I like the ties section.  Yes, it's a bit obscure, and it could certainly be made a lot more concise, but the rather baroque system of ties is a valid part of the school's tradition and identity, and I think there should at least be something written about it.  I think we can probably get away with just a sentence for each tie, though: a description and a note about what it represents.
 * School expeditions . This doesn't need a section of its own, and in any event it's unlikely the list would ever be complete.  Can probably be replaced with a single sentence containing a few representative examples.
 * Non-notable old boys . Some of these can probably go.  The ones currently deleted are: Professor Christopher Calladine FRS, Professor Raymond Freeman FRS, Professor Thomas Wingate Todd, Professor Martin Humphries FMedSci FSB, Tom Groves, and Sir Douglas Wass GCB.  All undoubtedly eminent in their respective fields, but none of them have their own articles, so they should probably be omitted for the moment.  Might be better to just comment them out rather than actually deleting them, so that they could be more easily reinstated if they acquire their own articles at some point in the future.

So, on balance, I think I agree with most of the deletions. Really, I just thought it would be easier to do it the other way round, that's all. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 23:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I edited the article in good-faith. Personally I think it could be edited further. Mt edits were an attempt to be bold and I only removed things I did not think would be contentious. The winners of a competition played within a school are not notable. Maybe headteachers have an advertising conspiracy and feel the need to inject articles with phrases like 'modern facilities', 'excellent results' and 'friendly ethos' etc. I don't think there is too much on this page that would have consitituted blatent advertising (you wouldn't have to look far to find it however). My issue with this is that someone (presumably from within the school) has seen fit to insert all this text about non-notable trivial events and people. School pages (I'm not trying to start a class-war here but its usually public schools and grammar schools rather than state comprehensives) often have lists of winners or competitions, lists of teachers and former pupils who aren't notable to have an entry of their own and this page seems to suffer from that sort of thing.

It has been stated that 'surely nobody could think a school this old is non-notable'. I don't doubt the notability of the subject matter, but surely equally nobody could think a list of winners of a school competition or a long lists of various ties within the school is notable encyclopeadic content.Mtaylor848 (talk) 15:45, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Pruning
Thanks for your input Nicholas. I support every  single one of Mtaylor848's edits, he was only  doing  a perfectly  legitimate WP:BRD, and I would have axed a lot more. Anyway, it's stimulated the required discussion, and we can work on  cutting  that  stuff out again and rewriting  the prose. Two things spring to  mind: How can such  a noteworthy  school  be content  with  a Wikipedia article that  reads like a script  for a soap, and why  can't  editors use for a model  one of the many  well  conceived and written  school  articles we already  have? Here are some examples: One of them had yards of dirty  uniforms and sports kit  hanging in  the quad until it  was severely  pruned. Now it's going up  for GA. I've replaced the infobox with  the correct  template and moved the logo  to  where it  should be. BTW, that logo  was not taken from  the school website, but we might  just get  away with  it,  because the FUR  is about right.--Kudpung (talk) 09:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Malvern College, see also: List of Old Malvernians
 * Harrow School
 * Hanley Castle High School (really one of the oldest  in  the country)
 * The King's School, Worcester
 * Bromsgrove School
 * Heathfield School, Wolverley
 * Malvern St James
 * Eton College

 * First of all, I wasn't arguing against Mtaylor848's edits, I was just a little uncomfortable that they happened rather suddenly and without any real prior discussion, to the extent that looked to me like someone had just appeared out of nowhere, deleted half the article and then disappeared again. (If it had been me, I'd have said "I think we should delete or shorten the following bits, what does everyone reckon?", rather than presenting it as a fait accompli, although I recognise that we are encouraged to "be bold", and I tend to err a little too much on the side of caution.)  I happily accept now that he acted in good faith, withdraw my earlier (merely procedural) objections, and applaud him for his motives and efforts.  I think we all ultimately want the same thing here -- that this article be improved considerably from its current rather rambling state -- although it might take a little bit of discussion to nail down the exact details.

 * Regarding the coat of arms, the problem with the current 'logo' isn't just the copyright issue, but that it's the wrong coat of arms and neither the school nor we technically have any right to use them, because it doesn't match the blazon granted by the College of Arms: the blackbirds should be inside a white/silver lozenge, and the main field should be ermine (white with black spots). If at all possible, this article should have a picture of the correct arms instead.  From what I understand, the copyright situation with coats of arms is that blazons (the formal description stated in the letters patent) aren't copyright, but that individual graphical depictions of them are, although we can probably make an appropriate non-free-use rationale.  Are you sure that copy of the logo hasn't been copied from the school's website?  The metadata at File:Nhsnewlogo.jpg specifically says that's where it came from. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 17:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

 * The list of masters has to  go - none of them  are referenced or notable or have Wiki  pages, and anyway  it's an MOS guideline.--Kudpung (talk) 09:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

 * The list of masters is taken from Appendix 1 of Adam Thomas' 1957 book A History of Nottingham High School, but I agree that it probably isn't essential for the article if we're tidying it up. Would it make more sense, do you think, to have a more detailed "History of Nottingham High School" article into which things like this could go?  If so, we could have a short, two or three paragraph historical section in this article, and then link to a more thorough account of the school's nearly five centuries of existence.  -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 17:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

 * I think expanding  the history  is an excellent  idea, and by  all  means base it  on  Thomas if his book  is interesting  and provides plenty  of detail  that  adds to  the school's notability. If you  have a copy, be sure not  to  quote verbatim, but  to paraphrase and acknowledge the source with  page numbers in  the refs. It's written somewhere in  the Wikipedia policy (I think on  the WP:SCHOOLS) pages that  lists of staff  are not  essential and should not  be included.
 * Thomas' book (published in 1957) is pretty thorough (304 pages including 8 appendices), and covers the period from the school's foundation in 1513 until its 440th anniversary in 1953. Thomas himself was head of history at the school during the 1950s, and his book is an expanded form of a PhD thesis he successfully submitted to the University of Nottingham, a typescript copy of which they had (and presumably still have) in the school archives.  It's been out of print for years, but second-hand copies seem to be relatively easy to get hold of (mine cost about fifteen quid, I think).  A shorter book (by my contemporary Stuart Brocklehurst) was published in 1990.  I think the list of headmasters would be ok in a historical article but agree, on reflection, that it shouldn't be in the main school article.  -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 17:45, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The logo is exactly  the same as the one on  the website but  it was not  taken  from  the website - it  was scanned from  another source at  a much  higher resolution than the image on  the web site. If  there are problems concerning  the heraldry, then it  must  be taken  up  with  the school's public relations department   who  most  likely  provided the webmaster with  all  the elements to  use on  the site. According  to  the FUR and the declared source (which  is technically wrong  anyway), we can use it, even if it's the wrong  one, and the school  hasn't  objected.--Kudpung (talk) 14:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I feel quite strongly about the coat of arms, and think that we should at least use the correct one (which legally is the school's coat of arms, whatever the school's management might currently think). I can scan in a suitable version and provide a non-free-use rationale if you think that would be ok? -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 17:45, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I know nothing  about  heraldry, but  if you  feel  strongly  enough  about  it, and I'm  sure you're right  to  do  so, the course of action  would not be to  scan and use a different  image in  the Wikipedia. That  decision  is not  ours to  make. All we can do is bring  the matter to  the notice of the school without  getting  further involved, and if we must, we don't  use any  heraldic devices in  the article until  the matter is cleared up.--Kudpung (talk) 20:52, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I've failed to explain my point properly - sorry about that. The school has a coat of arms, granted by the College of Arms in 1949, which is still used in some  school publications; also a large carved version used to (and presumably still does) hang above the stage in the assembly hall.  For promotional purposes they've also recently adopted what they seem to call a 'logo', which is really a simplified version of the shield from the full arms.  Leaving aside the question over whether they're allowed to do this kind of redesigning on their own authority (basically, they're not, although the law is almost never enforced in England), and considering just whether we're allowed to use a depiction of the proper arms in an encyclopaedia article about the school, I'd say it's clear that we are.
 * My understanding of the law pertaining to heraldry is that nobody who isn't a member of the school is allowed to use the school arms in a way that implies that they own them (for example, on a letterhead, etc), nor would anyone be permitted to use them in a defamatory manner, but it's quite ok to use it in a factual context like this, with or without the school's permission. Also, the formal description of the arms (the 'blazon') isn't copyright, and can be quoted in full.  A specific depiction of a coat of arms (a painting, for example) can be copyrighted, and the copyright usually rests with the artist or the organisation in question.  It would definitely be ok for someone with sufficient artistic talent to prepare their own depiction of the arms, and licence it in a manner acceptable for Wikipedia purposes; it would also, I think, be ok to scan a lowish resolution copy of the school's depiction and use it under the same non-free-use rationale that we use for corporate logos and indeed the school's new 'logo'.  I'll see if I can figure out a way to do the former, but I think the latter would be ok too.  -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 22:23, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Anyway, as much as it irks me (and I freely admit that it irks me slightly more than it probably should), this is a pretty minor issue as far as the article rewrite goes, and we can sort out the details later. Let's focus on deciding what the article should be like.  -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 20:54, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Rewriting
I've been thinking a little bit about what the rewritten article should look like. How about the following? Have I left anything out, or included anything that shouldn't be there? -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 20:54, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Introduction . One, maybe two paragraphs containing just the most pertinent facts: what sort of school it is, where it is, when it was founded, mention of no more than three alumni (D H Lawrence, maybe Albert Ball, perhaps one of the more prominent current politicians), name of current headmaster, that sort of thing.
 * 2) History .  Two paragraphs (maybe three if warranted) about the school's history, plus a link to a separate, more detailed article, when written.
 * 3) Buildings .  Maybe a couple of paragraphs about the current layout of the school campus, the buildings and facilities, etc.
 * 4) Academic activities .  Curriculum, exam results, typical destination of leavers, etc.
 * 5) Extra-curricular activities . Sport, music, drama, tours and educational field trips, CCF and community service group, etc.
 * 6) Daily life .  (Possibly need a better title for this section?)  Stuff about day-to-day life at the school: assembly, pastoral tutor system, structure of school day, uniform (including concise description of ties), houses, prefect system, etc.
 * 7) Traditions . Brief section on some of the school's extant traditions: founder's day service, speech day, mention (but not full text) of school hymn, coat of arms, brief mention of major internal competitions (Wheeler cup, house sporting and music competitions, etc).
 * 8) Notable alumni .  Only those alumni who have an article of their own.  There are enough of these that we don't have to go hunting for others to make up the numbers.

 * Apologies for the delay in  getting  back  to  you  Nicholas. We have a useful  check list  on  our schools project  pages at WP:WPSCH/AG which  might  be a help. I'd be happy  to  work  with  you  on  improving  this article, but  don't  hesitate to  WP:BOLD and make the changes you  suggest -  we can always tweak  them  again  later. Alternatively, if your changes are sweeping ones, we can always make a sub  page somewhere for working  on  a much  revised article,  and publish  it  when we are ready. In  spite of its huge number of registered members, the schools project  has been largely  inactive for a long  time. I've been discussing  the possibility  of organising  a task  force to  clean up  UK schools articles, as I've been doing  it  practically alone for several  months. Would you be interested in  helping  out? Some examples of reasonably  good school  articles of different  kinds of articles include Malvern College and HCGS both of which which  I  will  shortly  be proposing for GAN. --Kudpung (talk) 03:05, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

 * I would be disinclined to include a section about the 'day to day' life at a school, this surely can only be of internal interest as can things like 'houses' (which looking across Wikipedia pages seem to be common place amongst independent schools, so a house system can't be particularly unique or notable) and the prefect system.   The school hymn again has to be only of internal interest, furthermore if anything other than brief exerts are printed it could be in breach of copyright.  Ultimately I agree with the proposals largely, however I would not include a section about 'daily life' and I would keep the section about 'traditions' very brief.  Perhaps we could have a rudimentary trim of the page in the meantime, while we argue about the finer points of it.  Regards, Mtaylor848 (talk) 12:37, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that sounds fine to me (you and the others convinced me) - I now think we should trim whatever we think most needs to go, and if we later decide bits of it should be restored in some form, we can trawl through the page's edit history to recover it. Regarding the daily life and traditions stuff - I agree that whatever we do include should be concise and relevant, but I don't think we should necessarily exclude details that aren't unique to NHS.  Obviously any such material shouldn't be allowed to ramble, but I don't think we can seriously get away without mentioning, for example, the names of the houses, the fact that lots of the sixth form are appointed prefects of some form (and what that actually means), and so forth.  I don't think that sort of stuff is just of internal interest, whereas things like the Wheeler Cup list clearly shouldn't be in a proper encyclopaedia article. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 16:36, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm going to be bold and remove some parts there seems to be consensus that it should go. Mtaylor848 (talk) 12:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have cut out non-notable alumni and lists of winners of competitions. Mtaylor848 (talk) 12:42, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks fine to me. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 16:36, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Potential copyright violation
On the advice of a former pupil (see above) that the hymn dates back to the middle of the twentieth century it has to be assumed that it is not in the public domain. For the time being I am removing it, if it's agreed exerts are warranted then they can be inserted later. Mtaylor848 (talk) 12:44, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe it only dates back to the middle of the twentieth century for the following reason: the copy glued inside the front cover of my hymn book (which I think I still have somewhere in the attic) had the credit "Duddell–Whitehorn" at the end. I'm assuming here (and I think it's at least halfway reasonable to do so) that the Duddell in question is the same Mr A G Duddell who was head of history at the school during the 1950s.  Quoting a couple of lines (or perhaps even an entire verse) would, I'm sure, qualify under "fair use", but copying out the whole thing would be both unnecessary (there are far more relevant and interesting things we can put in this article) and a possible copyright violation.  -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 16:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

 * I can see no reason why a brief quotation would contravene fair use. Printing large exerts or the whole lot is of course a violation.  I see no reason why the hymn cannot be mentioned, very few schools have a hymn of their own so it could be of interest to someone reading this page.  While the school having a hymn could be of interest, the hymn itself is not. Mtaylor848 (talk) 16:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Excessive detail (see tag)
This article has now reached proportions that are inappropriate. Excessive details, such as for example to  mention  one section, is Prefects. This article can be pruned by 30% and still  be a representative Wikipedia article for a school. Please refer to WP:WPSCH/AG and consider reediting  as necessary. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:21, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The message above was posted nearly two  years ago  and the rticle is still  a rambling  mess. It would be nice if some unwanted content  could be removed by if those who  added it  and perhaps those who  are concerned that  their pestigious school  should have an equally  correct  pfersence on  Wikipedia. Pleanty of tips and examples have been posted in  the various threads above. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:26, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

That said, with  a bit  of effort  this article could probably  be got  up  to  GA. See HCGS, and Malvern College for examples. I would certainly  help  out. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:48, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

 * A few thoughts:
 * The History section is calling out for expansion. At the moment it does not sufficiently inform the reader about the school's 500 year history. Just one example: "[founded] as an act of atonement for his several wrongdoings against the people of Nottingham." What kind of wrongdoings? A careful look through the two books written about the school should be enough (Thomas, Adam W., A History of Nottingham High School, 1513–1953 Nottingham: J. and H. Bell Ltd, 1957; and Brocklehurst, Stuart, Nottingham High School: A Brief History, Nottingham, 1989). The school library surely has copies.
 * For a school with some lovely architecture there really needs to be some greater detail about the buildings. Try to get hold of Pevsner's Buildings of England which should have some information on the Main building and Founders hall.
 * Other editors are free to disagree with me but in my mind the list of Masters is unnecessarily detailed and its presence is questionable given that few of the names mentioned have their own Wikipedia articles. Take a look at Talk:City of London School/GA1. As it stands the massive table adds little and destroys any sense of "flow" in the article.
 * I will try to make some substantive edits if I have time and if editors want more advice they are free to leave a message on my Talk page. Cheers Duffit5 (talk) 17:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

 * This all sounds very sensible, and I'll try to find time to help do some work on the article, although I'm rather snowed under with other stuff at the moment. I've got copies of both Thomas' and Brocklehurst's books, and also an off-print of an article called "The Buildings of Nottingham High School" by Cedric Reynolds (Transactions of the Thoroton Society of Nottinghamshire 57 (1953) 33-42) and can try to incorporate some of it. John Knifton recently wrote an updated history (Lauda Finem: The History of Nottingham High School) that was published to celebrate the 500th anniversary this year; I've got a copy of that too, but haven't read it in detail yet.
 * An alternative solution might be to just keep a short historical overview in the main article, and then have a separate, longer article (such as History of Nottingham High School) into which details like the list of Masters could go. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 18:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

 * To stimulate a little action I am looking at the lead. Firstly, it reads like spam and contains material not included in the article- contrary to WP:MOSINTRO I take a dim view of references that come from a companies advertising material. And some sections without references so I may hit a few of them. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 13:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Yes, much of the article does read rather like promotional copy, and there's quite a lot of other unencyclopaedic stuff that could be pruned or deleted. I'll try to find some references for the unsourced historical stuff. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 16:57, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have left this ten days and there has been little response. I thought of doing a /sandbox where ideas could be worked up- but then that seems to be avoiding the problem. The text seems like a massive series of copyvios from the school prospectus- and fails to tell the general readers what is normal in a school of this type, and there again fails to show how it differentiates itself from other schools in an authority that has just been heavily hit by OFSTED. The reader coming to find out how it formed the personality of Ed Balls or D H Lawrence will find nothing. I no faith in references provided by the company/ school except for the basic undisputable bricks and mortar facts. So, when I moment I will try and pull the text back to basic principles WP:WPSCH/AG, using the Genghis Khan Nothing is Sacred approach. --  Clem Rutter (talk) 11:23, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Three hours later I have restructured the article opening it up to substantial additions. I culled a lot of excessive detail. The history section says nothing: we need to know, what happened through to 1820, the nineteenth century, up to 1966, and then beyond. Funding is fascination- expansion must tie in with Nottingham s economic forture. We need a new article on Agnes Mellers, and the Harry Djanogly crew. Were they single handedly pumping in money? Harry is prominent in supporting the Tory governments divisive Academy program and one of his kids is in the government. Tread carefully.
 * When it came to describing the buildings- the section that needs attention is the Grade1 listed Gothic Revival stuff- the list of ancillary new builds really is not notable. I haven't touched ties- maybe a collapsible list, and the prefect system need looking at in a wider context. There remains overlinking: geography is worthless, a link to geography curriculums in UK Schools has merit- similarly school trips. OK- enough for now, I have to feed my reindeer before it gets dark. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 14:48, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Thanks for all your  hard work  on  this. Do  go  ahead and radically  prune anything  that  is not  relevant, any  copyvios, and any exorbitant  claims that  cannot  be reliably  sourced. If  such  content  gets put  back  by  new or IP  users, I'll  semi  protect  the article. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:02, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Yes, thanks and well done for taking the initiative - at a first glance I think I agree with all the changes you've made so far. I also agree that the history section could do with a bit of expansion, and I'll try to find time to do some work on that in the near future, life and work permitting -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 17:54, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Don't be afraid to edit
Just keep the article neutral and free of unnecessary detail (see my earlier posts on this page). Use whatever font is convenient from the keyboard of your computer or mobile device. We have users who are authorised to use special programmes that regularly sweep the ecyclopedia to automatically correct minor errors of punctuation and formatting. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:38, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

School roll
Please avoid using exact numbers and cite approximations instead. School rolls are volatile and Wikipedia school articles are not always kept up to date. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:31, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Independent not private
This article helps with definitions. --ClemRutter (talk) 20:35, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Nottingham High School


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Best, Jr.

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was No consensus -> keep. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 19:52, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

John Best, Jr.
A city councilor; not otherwise notable NatusRoma 21:57, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not sufficiently notable. Jacob1207 01:31, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete — less notable than average professor even. — RJH 20:02, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - Member of the governing body of a town of over 180,000 people, and elected by a constituency of about 60,000 (about the same size as a state legislative district). -- Seth Ilys 01:36, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete there are thousands of them.  Grue   09:30, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete not notable to the world at large. --Xcali 20:13, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, notable enough for wikipedia. Kappa 21:43, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


text:
Saalburg

The Saalburg is a Roman fort located on the main ridge of the Taunus, northwest of Bad Homburg, Hesse, Germany. It is a cohort fort, part of the Limes Germanicus, the Roman linear border fortification of the German provinces. The Saalburg, located just off the main road roughly halfway between Bad Homburg and Wehrheim is the most completely reconstructed Roman fort in Germany. Since 2005, as part of the Upper Limes, it forms part of a UNESCO World Heritage site. In the modern numbering system for the limes, it is ORL 11.

History of research

The earliest examinations of the site were undertaken from 1853 to 1862 by the Nassau Antiquarian Society under the direction of Friedrich Gustav Habel (1793–1867). But the great impulse to provincial Roman archaeology in Germany came in 1892, when the Reichs-Limes-Kommission (the Imperial Commission for the Roman borders), then chaired by Theodor Mommsen began to research the course of the Limes Germanicus in its entirety, as well as the location of all its forts. In the course of this enormous project, not completed for decades, intensive exploration of the Saalburg and its surroundings was pursued by the archaeologists charged with this stretch of the limes, Louis Jacobi (1836–1910) and his son and successor Heinrich Jacobi (1855–1946). In 1897, Kaiser Wilhelm II, following a suggestion by L. Jacobi, ordered the reconstruction of the Saalburg fort according to the detailed results of its excavation. As a result, the Saalburg became the most completely reconstructed fort on the entire limes. It also houses the Saalburg Museum, one of the two most important institutions dedicated to the study of the German Limes (the other being the Limesmuseum of Aalen). From 1967 to 1993, the museum was directed by the well-known archaeologist Dietwulf Baatz, whose many publications fostered a broad interest in provincial Roman archaeology well beyond specialist circles.

Location
Since prehistoric times, trade routes like the Lindenweg or Linienweg connected the Rhine-Main plain with the Usingen basin, which had been a centre of population since the Neolithic. Such routes would have followed a course from the mouth of the Nidda near Höchst, northwards across the low Taunus ridge, as does the modern Bundesstraße 456. A location along major communication routes almost always equals a strategic importance. Thus, it is no surprise that the mountain pass beside the Saalburg was first fortified by Roman troops during Domitian's wars against the Chatti (AD 81-96), when two simple earthen enclosures were erected (Schanzen A and B, located between the restored fort and the modern road).

History
Shortly after the two enclosures, around AD 90, a simple wood-and-earth fort was built to house a numerus. A numerus was a unit of auxiliary troops consisting of 2 centuriae and numbering about 160 men. There is some evidence that the troop stationed at this fort was a numerus Brittonum, i.e. a unit from Britain, but this is not entirely clear.

Late in the reign of Hadrian, c. AD 135, the numerus fort was replaced with a much larger (3.2 hectare) fort for a cohort, a unit of about 500 men. The new castle was reoriented to face the growing Roman city of Nida (now Heddernheim). Originally, it had dry-built wood-and stone walls, which were replaced in the 2nd half of the 2nd century with mortared stone walls and an earthen ramp (147 × 221 m). The reconstructed fort is based on that third and last architectural phase, but reminders of the second phase are visible in the retentura (the back of the fort). Part of the second-phase defensive ditch has also been restored and can be inspected there.

The cohort fort was occupied by the Cohors II Raetorum civium Romanorum equitata (2. partially mounted Raetian cohort with Roman citizenship), a partially equestrian 500-men infantry unit, probably under the command of the legionary headquarters at Mogontiacum (modern Mainz). The cohort had initially been stationed at Aquae Mattiacorum (Wiesbaden), had then been moved to the Butzbach fort (ORL 14) and finally to the Saalburg.

The fort existed in that form and with that occupancy until the fall of the German limes in c. AD 260. During the intervening period, the name of the unit is repeatedly mentioned in stone inscriptions, as are the names of some of its commanders.

In the early 3rd century, the situation along the limes became increasingly unsettled. A preventive war under Caracalla, who marched against the Alamanni and their Chatti allies from Raetia and Mogontiacum in AD 213, lowered the Germanic pressure on the border only temporarily. The town of Nida (capital of the regional civitas) was given a defensive enclosure around that time. Already around 233, the Alemanni entered Roman territory again; further major incursions took place in 254 and 260. Eventually, all areas east of the Rhine were lost during the major political and economic crisis of the mid-3rd century. In the course of these events, the Saalburg fort appears to have been abandoned deliberately and without military action.

After the abandonment of the Upper Germanic Limes, the fort was used as a quarry.

Archaeology, architecture
The Saalburg in its final architectural phase, in the form reconstructed today, as a cohort fort typical for this part of the limes, a 147 by 221 m rectangle with 4 gates.

The 3.25 ha interior was enclosed by a double ditch and a mortared defensive wall; its external face was whitewashed and painted with a trompe-l'œil pattern of ashlar blocks. On the inside, an earthen ramp was placed along the length of the wall, to enable defenders to access the top. The corners were rounded and not crowned with towers, but all four gates were flanked by two towers each.

The fort was oriented in such a way that its main gate, or porta praetoria faced south-south-east, that is away from the limes but towards Nida. The central structure of the fort was a large principia, a central plaza surrounded by housing or offices for the higher officers, which was flanked by a roofed hall for assemblies of the fort's garrison. The praetentura (front part of the fort) contained the praetorium (the fort commander's residence) to the west of the via praetoria, and a large horreum (grain store) to its east. The rest of the fort's interior, today a park-like area of grass and trees, should be visualised as packed with further buildings: stables, magazines, workshops and, of course, the actual troop quarters, subdivided into contubernia. Two such troop barracks have been reconstructed in the southeast part of the fort. For the general arrangement and terminology of Roman fort architecture, see Castra.

Vicus
The Saalburg is not only the most consistently reconstructed limes fort, it is also the only one to have had its vicus (adjacent civilian settlement) partially excavated and preserved. The parts of the vicus visible today are located mostly to the south of the fort, on both sides of the road that linked it with Nida, the regional capital and base of further garrison behind the border.

The village begins immediately outside the main gate, where the ruins of a mansio (an official hostel) and, behind it, of a bath for the soldiers were found. These are followed along the road by the preserved basements and foundations (partially reconstructed) of residential houses and of - as believed in the time of the excavations - a mithraeum, a shrine to the Mithras, a deity popular among the Roman army.

The fort's bath was relatively large and quite elaborately designed to have all the main features of Roman Thermae. It has an apodyterium (changing room), a frigidarium (cold bath), two tepidaria (lukewarm baths', a caldarium (hot bath) and a sudatorium (sauna). The complex was heated from the praefurnia (firing places); and all rooms except the apodyterium and frigidarium were served by a hypocaust system (underfloor and wall heating).

Archaeologists assume that the overall complex (fort and vicus) housed a population of up to 2,000 (500 soldiers, 1,500 civilians).

Saalburg Museum
Although the Saalburg is known mainly as an archaeological park and museum, it also serves a number of scientific functions less obvious to the visitor.

The most striking features for the modern visitor are the fully reconstructed walls and gates, the principia with its aedes (shrine containing the signa militaria or standards), the assembly hall, the horreum (provisions store), the two barracks buildings with their rebuilt interior contubernia and the partially reconstructed praetorium.

The horreum contains an informative exhibition, focusing on cultural, historical, architectural, and military aspects of Roman Germania. The museum exhibits a large collection of well-preserved military and domestic equipment from the Saalburg and other sites in the area as well as a series of architectural and terrain models.

Since its reconstruction, the Saalburg has functioned also as an internationally renowned centre of research, concerned with provincial Roman archaeology in general, the limes in particular. The heart of the centre is a specialised library of 30,000 volumes and 2,200 slides. The Saalburgmuseum regularly organises colloquia and has its own series of academic publications.

Since the 1980s, the Saalburg is also the venue of occasional classical concerts.

Surroundings
Only about 200 m north of the porta decumana (back gate), the limes runs by in a west-easterly direction. Part of the border defense (ditch, bank and palisade) has been reconstructed here.

As along most of its extent in the Taunus area, the limes near the Saalburg is remarkably well preserved and can be easily followed through the landscape. Ditch and bank are distinctly visible for long stretches, and many of the former watch towers have been partially preserved or are visible as small mounds. Thus, the Saalburg is a good starting point for further exploration of the limes.

The Saalburg in the context of the local limes' between the Kleinkastelle (small forts) of Heidenstock to the southwest and Lochmühle to the northeast:

Near the Saalburg, a copy of the Jupitersäule (a type of painted tall sandstone stele dedicated to Jupiter and common in the German provinces) of Mainz has been erected.

Saalburgbahn
The reerection of the fort in the late 19th and early 20th century led to a surge of interest by the local population, including visitors using the spa at Bad Homburg. To provide comfortable access, the Bad Homburg tram company constructed a direct rail link, the Saalburgbahn. After a pre-World War I flourish, the company was badly affected by post-war inflation and a massive drop of visitor numbers to the spa. Eventually, the service was closed; scanty traces of its embankment and the (closed) station remain.

Today, the fort can be reached by an hourly bus link from Bad Homburg.

Literature

 * Dietwulf Baatz: Saalburg (Taunus). In: Die Römer in Hessen. Nikol, Hamburg 2002, ISBN 3-933203-58-9
 * Dietwulf Baatz: Der Römische Limes. Archäologische Ausflüge zwischen Rhein und Donau. Gebr. Mann, Berlin 2000, ISBN 3-7861-2347-0
 * Margot Klee: Die Saalburg. Theiss, Stuttgart 1995. (Führer zur hessischen Vor- und Frühgeschichte 5), ISBN 3-8062-1205-8
 * Margot Klee: Der Limes zwischen Rhein und Main. Theiss, Stuttgart 1989, ISBN 3-8062-0276-1
 * Anne Johnson: Römische Kastelle des 1. und 2. Jahrhunderts n. Chr. in Britannien und in den germanischen Provinzen des Römerreiches. Zabern, Mainz 1987. (Kulturgeschichte der antiken Welt, Vol. 37), ISBN 3-8053-0868-X
 * Egon Schallmayer (ed.): Hundert Jahre Saalburg. Vom römischen Grenzposten zum europäischen Museum. Zabern, Mainz 1997, ISBN 3-8053-2359-X
 * Heinrich Jacobi: Kastell Nr. 11 Saalburg, Der obergermanisch-raetische Limes des Römerreiches, Series B, Vol. II, Frankfurt 1937 (the original publication of the excavation).
 * Since 1910 (with interruptions), a Saalburg Annual (Saalburg Jahrbuch) with scholarly articles on provincial Roman archaeology is published. More than 50 volumes exist.
 * Since 1995, theSaalburg-Schriften present archaeological studies to a popular audience.

title: Saalburg


text:
Microfilter

Microfilter may refer to:

 * DSL filter, used to prevent interference between analog devices and a DSL service on a telephone line
 * A type of filter used in the microfiltration process

title: Microfilter


text:
Talk:Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

WP:INDIA Banner/Orissa Addition
Note: WP India Project Banner with Orissa workgroup parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under Category:Orissa or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate, please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article -- Amartyabag   TALK2ME  11:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Editing on 'identity' page
I am going to remove the part of Advaita followers describing Caitanya as a 'saint who attained onness with god'. In this same sense should we also describe fundamentalist Christian views that he was the devil or some other nonsense? This isn't relevant to the article, and is uncited, therefore ought to be removed. Harrifer (talk) 01:56, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

We may as well remove the statement 'He is one of the incarnations of The Supreme Personailty Of Godhead Krishna' (sic) this is a statement of faith, not factual and has no place on an encyclopedic entry. Overall, the whole article has a faith undertone that makes it unreliable. It reads as if a devotee wrote it, it is not informative as much as it preaches statements of faith as facts. Diabulos (talk) 12:47, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Completely agree. Some parts look more religious than encyclopedic. SDas (talk) 15:59, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I agree, it sounds like it was written by ISKCON, I is not appropriate for wikipedia,

i should be edited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:644:501:2FB0:B9E3:FAC4:CF53:6C51 (talk) 06:21, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Note by WillemV: Diabulos is right. Prabhupada-isms like 'Supreme Personality Of Godhead' indicate contributions of followers of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (ISKCON), which are limited to the interpretations of Bhaktivedanta Swami in the Gaudiya Vaishnava line going back through his guru, Bhaktisiddhanta Swami. These contributions are accurate only to that extent and often fail text critical cross referencing and proper source referencing. Many Wikipedia articles relating to Indian scripture and philosophy (such as the Bhagavata Purana, Bhagavad-gita, bhakti, Chaitanya, Rupa Goswami, etc.) contain such contributions. Even the articles that offer references often reference ISKCON literature or websites. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.97.224.194 (talk) 22:05, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

 * The article is like a ISKCON religious pamphlet, its statement at the end of the article:
 * "The fulfillment of this prediction was manifested through the International Society of Krishna Consciousness, which was started by Srila Prabhupada in the USA, as it has spread the ideas of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu through much of the world" should be removed immediately. it is not encyclopedic. Using wikipedia as a preaching platform is obnoxious. 2601:644:503:3B0:147E:377D:4E00:4008 (talk) 23:41, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Done✅. Thanks.CharlesWain (talk) 05:35, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The section on teachings is wrong
Whoever quoted the das mula or ten maxims got it very wrong. The Das Mula is authored by Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Chaitanya did not teach that individual souls are Krishna. Here is the actual Ten Maxims from http://nitaaiveda.com/All_Scriptures_By_Acharyas/Bhaktivinoda_Thakura/Dashamula_Tattva.htm:

amnayah praha tattvam/ harimiha paramam/ sarvasaktim/ rasabdhim/ tadbhinnamsamsca jivan/ prakriti kavalitan/ tadvimuktamsca bhavat/ bhedabheda-prakasam sakalamapi hareh/ sadhanam suddha bhaktim/ sadhyam yat pritim/ evetyupadisati harau gauracandram bhajetam

1. The statements of amnaya (scripture) are the chief proof. By these statements the following nine topics are taught.

2. Krishna is the Supreme Absolute Truth.

3. Krishna is endowed with all energies.

4. Krishna is the ocean of rasa (theology)

5. The jivas (individual souls) are all separated parts of the Lord.

6. In  bound state the  jivas are under the influence of matter, due to their tatastha nature.

7. In the liberated state the  jivas are free from the influence of matter, due to their tatastha nature.

8. The jivas and the material world are both different from and identical to the Lord.

9. Pure devotion is the practice of the jivas.

10. Pure love of Krishna is the goal.

So I'm changing it

shiva das 01:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shiva das (talk • contribs)

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu: His Life and Precepts
by Bhaktivinoda Thakura [This account originally appeared in a short work by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura entitled, "Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu: His Life and Precepts." (August 20, 1896)] Caitanya Mahaprabhu was born in Mayapur in the town of Nadia just after sunset on the evening of the 23rd Phalguna 1407 Sakabda, answering to the 18th of February, 1486, of the Christian Era. The moon was eclipsed at the time of his birth, and the people of Nadia were then engaged, as was usual on such occasions, in bathing in the Bhagirathi with loud cheers of Haribol. His father, Jagannatha Misra, a poor brahmana of the Vedic order, and his mother, Saci-devi, a model good woman, both descended from brahmana stock originally residing in Sylhet. Mahaprabhu was a beautiful child, and the ladies of the town came to see him with presents. His mother's father, Pandita Nilambara Cakravarti, a renowned astrologer, foretold that the child would be a great personage in time; and he, therefore, gave him the name Visvambhara. The ladies of the neighborhood styled him Gaurahari on account of his golden complexion, and his mother called him Nimai on account of the nimba tree near which he was born. Beautiful as the lad was, everyone heartily loved to see him every day. As he grew up he became a whimsical and frolicsome lad. After his fifth year, he was admitted into a pathasala where he picked up Bengali in a very short time. Most of his contemporary biographers have mentioned certain anecdotes regarding Caitanya which are simple records of his early miracles. It is said that when he was an infant in his mother's arms he wept continually, and when the neighboring ladies cried Haribol he used to stop. Thus there was a continuation of the utterance of Haribol in the house, foreshewing the future mission of the hero. It has also been stated that when his mother once gave him sweetmeats to eat, he ate clay instead of the food. His mother asking for the reason, he stated that as every sweetmeat was nothing but clay transformed, he could eat clay as well. His mother, who was also the consort of a pandita, explained that every article in a special state was adapted to a special use. Earth, while in the state of a jug, could be used as a water pot, but in the state of a brick such a use was not possible. Clay, therefore, in the form of sweetmeats was usable as food, but clay in its other states was not. The lad was convinced and admitted his stupidity in eating clay and agreed to avoid the mistake in the future. Another miraculous act has been related. It is said that a brahmana on pilgrimage became a guest in his house, cooked food and read grace with meditation upon Krishna. In the meantime the lad came and ate up the cooked rice. The brahmana, astonished at the lad's act, cooked again at the request of Jagannatha Misra. The lad again ate up the cooked rice while the brahmana was offering the rice to Krishna with meditation. The brahmana was persuaded to cook for the third time. This time all the inmates of the house had fallen asleep, and the lad shewed himself as Krishna to the traveler and blessed him. The brahmana was then lost in ecstasy at the appearance of the object of his worship. It has also been stated that two thieves stole away the lad from his father's door with a view to purloin his jewels and gave him sweetmeats on the way. The lad exercised his illusory energy and deceived the thieves back towards his own house. The thieves, for fear of detection, left the boy there and fled. Another miraculous act that has been described is the lad's demanding and getting from Hiranya and Jagadisa all the offerings they had collected for worshiping Krishna on the day of Ekadasi. When only four years of age he sat on rejected cooking pots which were considered unholy by his mother. He explained to his mother that there was no question of holiness and unholiness as regards earthen pots thrown away after the cooking was over. These anecdotes relate to his tender age up to the fifth year. In his eighth year, he was admitted into the tola of Gangadasa Pandita in Ganganagara close by the village of Mayapur. In two years he became well read in Sanskrit grammar and rhetoric. His readings after that were of the nature of self-study in his own house, where he had found all-important books belonging to his father, who was a pandita himself. It appears that he read the smriti in his own study, and the nyaya also, in competition with his friends, who were then studying under the celebrated Pandita Raghunatha Siromani. Now, after the tenth year of his age, Caitanya became a passable scholar in grammar, rhetoric, the smriti and the nyaya. It was after this that his elder brother Visvarupa left his house and accepted the asrama (status) of a sannyasi (ascetic). Caitanya, though a very young boy, consoled his parents, saying that he would serve them with a view to please God. Just after that, his father left this world. His mother was exceedingly sorry, and Mahaprabhu, with his usual contented appearance, consoled his widowed mother. It was at the age of 14 or 15 that Mahaprabhu was married to Lakshmidevi, the daughter of Vallabhacarya, also of Nadia. He was at this age considered one of the best scholars of Nadia, the renowned seat of nyaya philosophy and Sanskrit learning. Not to speak of the smarta panditas, the Naiyayikas were all afraid of confronting him in literary discussions. Being a married man, he went to Eastern Bengal on the banks of the Padma for acquirement of wealth. There he displayed his learning and obtained a good sum of money. It was at this time that he preached Vaishnavism at intervals. After teaching him the principles of Vaishnavism, he ordered Tapana Misra to go to and live in Benares. During his residence in East Bengal, his wife Lakshmidevi left this world from the effects of snakebite. On returning home, he found his mother in a mourning state. He consoled her with a lecture on the uncertainty of human affairs. It was at his mother's request that he married Vishnupriya, the daughter of Raja Pandita Sanatana Misra. His comrades joined him on his return from pravasa or sojourn. He was now so renowned that he was considered to be the best pandita in Nadia. Kesava Misra of Kashmir, who had called himself the Great Digvijayi, came to Nadia with a view to discuss with the panditas of that place. Afraid of the so-called conquering pandita, the tola professors of Nadia left their town on pretence of Invitation. Kesava met Mahaprabhu at the Barokona-ghata in Mayapur, and after a very short discussion with him he was defeated by the boy, and mortification obliged him to decamp. Nimai Pandita was now the most important pandita of his times. It was at the age of 16 or 17 that he traveled to Gaya with a host to sing the holy name of Hari in the streets and bazaars. This created a sensation and roused different feelings in different quarters. The bhaktas were highly pleased. The smarta brahmanas became jealous of Nimai Pandita's success and complained to Chand Kazi against the character of Caitanya as un-Hindu. The Kazi came to Srivasa Pandita's house and broke a mridanga (khola drum) there and declared that unless Nimai Pandita ceased to make noise about his queer religion he would be obliged to enforce Mohammedanism on him and his followers. This was brought to Mahaprabhu's notice. He ordered the townspeople to appear in the evening, each with a torch in his hand. This groups, and on his arrival in the Kazi's house, he held a long conversation with the Kazi and in the end communicated into his heart his Vaishnava influence by touching his body. The Kazi then wept and admitted that he had felt a keen spiritual influence which had cleared up his doubts and produced in him a religious sentiment which gave him the highest ecstasy. The Kazi then joined the sankirtana party. The world was astonished at the spiritual power of the Great Lord, and hundreds and hundreds of heretics converted and joined the banner of Visvambhara after this affair. It was after this that some of the jealous and low-minded brahmanas of Kulia picked a quarrel with Mahaprabhu and collected a party to oppose him. Nimai Pandita was naturally a soft-hearted person, though strong in his principles. He declared that party feelings and sectarianism were the two great enemies of progress and that as long as he should continue to be an inhabitant of Nadia belonging to a certain family, his mission would not meet with complete success. He then resolved to be a citizen of the world by cutting his connection with his particular family, caste and creed, and with this resolution he embraced the position of a sannyasi at Katwa, under the guidance of Kesava Bharati of that town, on the 24th year of his age. His mother and wife wept bitterly for his separation, but our hero, though soft in heart, was a strong person in principle. He left his little world in his house for the unlimited spiritual world of Krishna with man in general. After his sannyasa, he was induced to visit the house of Advaita Prabhu in Santipura. Advaita managed to invite all his friends and admirers from Nadia and brought Sacidevi to see her son. Both pleasure and pain invaded her heart when she saw her son in the attire of a sannyasi. As a sannyasi, Krishna Caitanya put on nothing but a kaupina and a bahirvasa (outer covering). His head was without hair, and his hands bore a danda (stick) and a kamandalu (hermit's water pot). The holy son fell at the feet of his beloved mother and said, "Mother! This body is yours, and I must obey your orders. Permit me to go to Vrindavana for my spiritual attainments." The mother, in consultation with Advaita and others, asked her son to reside in Puri (the town of Jagannatha) so that she might obtain his information now and then. Mahaprabhu agreed to that proposition and in a few days left Santipura for Orissa. His biographers have described the journey of Krishna Caitanya (that was the name he got after his sannyasa) from Santipura to Puri in great detail. He traveled along the side of the Bhagirathi as far as Chatrabhoga, situated now in Thana Mathurapura, Diamond Harbour, 24 Parganas. There he took a boat and went as far as Prayaga-ghata in the Midnapura District. Thence he walked through Balasore and Cuttack to Puri, seeing the temple of Bhuvanesvara on his way. Upon his arrival at Puri he saw Jagannatha in the temple and resided with Sarvabhauma at the request of the latter. Sarvabhauma was a gigantic pandita of the day. His readings knew no bounds. He was the best naiyayika of the times and was known as the most erudite scholar in the Vedanta philosophy of the school of Sankaracarya. He was born in Nadia (Vidyanagara) and taught innumerable pupils in the nyaya philosophy in his tola there. He had left for Puri some time before the birth of Nimai Pandita. His brother-in-law Gopinatha Misra introduced our new sannyasi to Sarvabhauma, who was astonished at his personal beauty and feared that it would be difficult for the young man to maintain sannyasa-dharma during the long run of his life. Gopinatha, who had known Mahaprabhu from Nadia, had a great reverence for him and declared that the sannyasi was not a common human being. On this point Gopinatha and Sarvabhauma had a hot discussion. Sarvabhauma then requested Mahaprabhu to hear his recitation of the Vedanta-sutras, and the latter tacitly submitted. Caitanya heard with silence what the great Sarvabhauma uttered with gravity for seven days, at the end of which the latter said, "Krishna Caitanya! I think you do not understand the Vedanta, for you do not say anything after hearing my recitation and explanations." The reply of Caitanya was that he understood the sutras very well, but he could not make out what Sankaracarya meant by his commentaries. Astonished at this, Sarvabhauma said, "How is it that you understand the meanings of the sutras and do not understand the commentaries which explain the sutras? All well! If you understand the sutras, please let me have your interpretations." Mahaprabhu thereon explained all the sutras in his own way without touching the pantheistic commentary of Sankara. The keen understanding of Sarvabhauma saw the truth, beauty and harmony of arguments in the explanations given by Caitanya and obliged him to utter that it was the first time that he had found one who could explain the Brahma-sutras in such a simple manner. He admitted also that the commentaries of Sankara never gave such natural explanations of the Vedanta-sutras as he had obtained from Mahaprabhu. He then submitted himself as an advocate and follower. In a few days Sarvabhauma turned out to be one of the best Vaishnavas of the time. When reports of this came out, the whole of Orissa sang the praise of Krishna Caitanya, and hundreds and hundreds came to him and became his followers. In the meantime Mahaprabhu thought of visiting Southern India, and he started with one Krishnadasa Brahmana for the journey. His biographers have given us a detail of the journey. He went first to Kurmakshetra, where he performed a miracle by curing a leper named Vasudeva. He met Ramananda Raya, the Governor of Vidyanagara, on the banks of the Godavari and had a philosophical conversation with him on the subject of prema-bhakti. He worked another miracle by touching (making them immediately disappear) the seven tala trees through which Ramacandra, the son of Dasaratha, had shot his arrow and killed the great Bali Raja. He preached Vaishnavism and nama-sankirtana throughout the journey. At Rangakshetra he stayed for four months in the house of one Venkata Bhatta in order to spend the rainy season. There he converted the whole family of Venkata from Ramanuja Vaishnavism to Krishna-bhakti, along with the son of Venkata, a boy of ten years named Gopala, who afterwards came to Vrindavana and became one of the six Gosvamis or prophets serving under their leader Sri Krishna Caitanya. Trained up in Sanskrit by his uncle Prabodhananda Sarasvati, Gopala wrote several books on Vaishnavism. Caitanya visited numerous places in Southern India as far as Cape Comorin and returned to Puri in two years by Pandepura on the Bhima. In this latter place he spiritualized one Tukarama, who became from that time a religious preacher himself. This fact has been admitted in his abhangas, which have been collected in a volume by Mr. Satyendra Nath Tagore of the Bombay Civil Service. During his journey he had discussions with the Buddhists, the Jains and the Mayavadis in several places and converted his opponents to Vaishnavism. Upon his return to Puri, Raja Prataparudra-deva and several pandita brahmanas joined the banner of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was now twenty-seven years of age. In his twenty-eighth year he went to Bengal as far as Gauda in Malda. There he picked up two great personages named Rupa and Sanatana. Though descended from the lines of the Karnatic brahmanas, these two brothers turned demi-Moslems by their continual contact with Hussain Shah, the then Emperor of Gauda. Their names had been changed by the Emperor into Dabira Khasa and Sakara Mallika, and their master loved them heartily since they were both learned in Persian, Arabic and Sanskrit and were loyal servants of the state. The two gentlemen had found no way to come back as regular Hindus and had written to Mahaprabhu for spiritual help while he was at Puri. Mahaprabhu had written in reply that he would come to them and extricate them from their spiritual difficulties. Now that he had come to Gauda, both the brothers appeared before him with their long-standing prayer. Mahaprabhu ordered them to go to Vrindavana and meet him there. Caitanya returned to Puri through Santipura, where he again met his dear mother. After a short stay at Puri he left for Vrindavana. This time he was accompanied by one Balabhadra Bhattacarya. He visited Vrindavana and came down to Prayaga (Allahabad), converting a large number of Mohammedans to Vaishnavism by argument from the Koran. The descendants of those converts are still known as Pathana Vaishnavas. Rupa Gosvami met him at Allahabad. Caitanya trained him up in spirituality in ten days and directed him to go to Vrindavana on missions. His first mission was to write theological works explaining scientifically pure bhakti and prema. The second mission was to revive the places where Krishnacandra had in the end of Dvapara-yuga exhibited His spiritual lila (pastimes) for the benefit of the religious world. Rupa Gosvami left Allahabad for Vrindavana, and Mahaprabhu came down to Benares. There he resided in the house of Candrasekhara and accepted his daily bhiksha (meal) in the house of Tapana Misra. Here it was that Sanatana Gosvami joined him and took instruction for two months in spiritual matters. The biographers, especially Krishnadasa Kaviraja, have given us details of Caitanya's teachings to Rupa and Sanatana. Krishnadasa was not a contemporary writer, but he gathered his information from the Gosvamis themselves, the direct disciples of Mahaprabhu. Jiva Gosvami, who was nephew of Sanatana and Rupa and who has left us his invaluable work the Shat-sandarbha, has philosophized on the precepts of his great leader. We have gathered and summarized the precepts of Caitanya from the books of those great writers. While at Benares, Caitanya had an interview with the learned sannyasis of that town in the house of a Maratha brahmana who had invited all the sannyasis for entertainment. At this interview, Caitanya shewed a miracle which attracted all the sannyasis to him. Then ensued reciprocal conversation. The sannyasis were headed by their most learned leader Prakasananda Sarasvati. After a short controversy, they submitted to Mahaprabhu and admitted that they had been misled by the commentaries of Sankaracarya. It was impossible even for learned scholars to oppose Caitanya for a long time, for there was some spell in him which touched their hearts and made them weep for their spiritual improvement. The sannyasis of Benares soon fell at the feet of Caitanya and asked for his grace (kripa). Caitanya then preached pure bhakti and instilled into their hearts spiritual love for Krishna which obliged them to give up sectarian feelings. The whole population of Benares, on this wonderful conversion of the sannyasis, turned Vaishnavas, and they made a master sankirtana with their new Lord. After sending Sanatana to Vrindavana, Mahaprabhu went to Puri again through the jungles with his comrade Balabhadra. Balabhadra reported that Mahaprabhu had shown a good many miracles on his way to Puri, such as making tigers and elephants dance on hearing the name of Krishna. From this time, that is, from his 31 st year, Mahaprabhu continually lived in Puri in the house of Kasi Misra until his disappearance in his forty-eighth year at the time of sankirtana in the temple of Tota-gopinatha. During these 18 years, his life was one of settled love and piety. He was surrounded by numerous followers, all of whom were of the highest order of Vaishnavas and who were distinguished from the common people by their purest character and learning, firm religious principles and spiritual love of Radha-Krishna. Svarupa Damodara, who had been known by the name of Purushottamacarya while Mahaprabhu was in Nadia, joined him from Benares and accepted service as his secretary. No production of any poet or philosopher could be laid before Mahaprabhu unless Svarupa had passed it as pure and useful. Raya Ramananda was his second mate. Both he and Svarupa would sing while Mahaprabhu expressed his sentiments on a certain point of worship. Paramananda Puri was his minister in matters of religion. There are hundreds of anecdotes described by his biographers which we do not think it meet here to reproduce. Mahaprabhu slept short. His sentiments carried him far and wide in the firmament of spirituality every day and night, and all his admirers and followers watched him throughout. He worshiped, communicated with his missionaries at Vrindavana, and conversed with those religious men who newly came to visit him. He sang and danced, took no care of himself and oft-times lost himself in religious beatitude. All who came to him believed in him as the all-beautiful God appearing in the nether world for the benefit of mankind. He loved his mother all along and sent her mahaprasada now and then with those who went to Nadia. He was most amiable in nature. Humility was personified in him. His sweet appearance gave cheer to all who came in contact with him. He appointed Prabhu Nityananda as the missionary in charge of Bengal. He dispatched six disciples (Gosvamis) to Vrindavana to preach love in the upcountry. He punished all of his disciples who deviated from a holy life. This he markedly did in the case of Junior Haridasa. He never lacked in giving proper instructions in life to those who solicited them. This will be seen in his teachings to Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. His treatment to Haridasa (senior) will show how he loved spiritual men and how he defied caste distinction in spiritual brotherhood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.132.128.162 (talk) 08:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Cat:Bengali Hindus
Is this category relevant here ? As he himself is Lord Krishna, I think we shouldn't describe him as Hindu at all. And there is no description of him as Hindu in the article.-- ɑηsuмaη  ʈ ᶏ ɭ Ϟ  07:59, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Earlier spreading of Gaudiya Vaisnavism in the West
Bhaktivedanta Swami's mission was probably the first of its quantity, but not the first Gaudiya Vaisnava mission in the West, as this Wikipedia article might suggest. Baba Premanand Bharati (writer of "Sree Krishna the Lord of Love", 1904) was a Gaudiya Vaisnava who established the Krishna Samaj in New York in 1907. It is likely to assume that this was the first Krishna temple in the West. In the 1930's, followers of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati (amongst whom Tridandi Swami B.P. Tirtha, Tridandi Swami B.H. Bon and Sambidananda Das) preached Gaudiya Vaisnavism in Europe under the name Gaudiya Mission and opened centers in London and Berlin. Both Premanand Bharati and the Gaudiya Mission had Western followers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sri Radha Vallabha (talk • contribs) 15:49, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

File:Yogapith, Mayapur.jpg to appear as POTD
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Yogapith, Mayapur.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on September 2, 2014. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2014-09-02. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:54, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Scriptural references about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu
I have deleted this whole section as it lacks any source. Please feel free to add back each "scriptural reference" with a reliable source. I have also moved some of the biography sentences from the lead into the main article per WP:LEAD and MOS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:23, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061207225342/http://www.deccanherald.com:80/deccanherald/mar122006/finearts1054102006310.asp to http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/Mar122006/finearts1054102006310.asp
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20051122094841/http://www.iskcon.net:80/nityananda/nitaibio4.htm to http://www.iskcon.net/nityananda/nitaibio4.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 00:15, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 9 external links on Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130525203633/http://srimadbhagavatam.com/introduction/en1 to http://srimadbhagavatam.com/introduction/en1
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140517215040/http://lordcaitanya.com/prologue/en1 to http://lordcaitanya.com/prologue/en1
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140517215040/http://lordcaitanya.com/prologue/en1 to http://lordcaitanya.com/prologue/en1
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130525203633/http://srimadbhagavatam.com/introduction/en1 to http://srimadbhagavatam.com/introduction/en1
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130613224024/http://www.salagram.net/parishad39.htm to http://www.salagram.net/parishad39.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140203073845/http://lordcaitanya.com/mission/en1 to http://lordcaitanya.com/mission/en1
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150510120845/http://www.dharmakshetra.com/sages/Saints/lilas%20of%20narotamma%20das.html to http://www.dharmakshetra.com/sages/Saints/lilas%20of%20narotamma%20das.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070807225130/http://www.krishna.com/main.php?id=551 to http://www.krishna.com/main.php?id=551
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120205182516/http://www.did-you-mean.com/Krishnology.html to http://www.did-you-mean.com/Krishnology.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 13:02, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120306060122/http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/14/22/en1 to http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/14/22/en1
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090302041337/http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/hindu/devot/gauvai.html to http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/hindu/devot/gauvai.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 23:50, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Supreme Personality of Godhead - encyclopedic tone or declaration of faith?
The opening lines of the article state that " Shri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (IAST: Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu), honorific: "Mahāprabhu" ("Great Lord"), (18 February 1486 – 14 June 1534), is the Supreme Personality of Godhead". This is a declaration of faith rather than an encylopedic entry and would be better expressed as "is considered by his followers to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead" etc. Edited accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2803:1500:E02:22CB:4909:4C76:148C:B12B (talk) 02:59, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

 * I agree. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:07, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Misinformation about chaitanya Mahaprsbhu
Vaishsnavisam is not a separate religion. It is a school of Hinduism. Please correct this in this article. Subrata8352 (talk) 14:23, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Source: Hindu Mythology, Vedic and Puranic
From the preface, this book looks to be a good, unbiased, secondary source that someone can quote from. There is a section titled "Chaitanya" on pages 260 to 262. Jroberson108 (talk) 15:14, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

 * I added it to the "Further reading" section. Jroberson108 (talk) 23:33, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:28, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Chaitanya mahaprabhu.jpg

"Ćajtanja" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Ćajtanja and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 5 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. ev iolite  (talk)  23:41, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

"Cajtanja" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Cajtanja and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 6 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Regards, SONIC   678   15:58, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chaitanya Mahaprabhu