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Category talk:Indigenous peoples

General discussion on indigenous category
I don't feel comfortable about categories that seem to be motivated by misconceptions (re: there has been a misconception that these peoples...). I also think this category has POV problems (read Maasai and Mukogodo-Maasai to see one obvious problem). In North America and Australia, this seems to be a term that is commonly used. In Africa however it isn't. Let's stick to using it only where is is in common use — I don't see why we would need to add almost every single ethno-stub to this category. — mark ✎ 12:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Validity, usefulness and what should be included?

 * I should like to further explore in some detail the notions on whether or not this Category is a valid, useful, or desirable one. In my view, I believe that it is (or can be made so- at present, it has only a few, almost random entries, and as such is deficient). In response to some likely questions:

 * 1) Is there a valid and recognised sense in which the term or label indigenous peoples is applied to a variety of cultural groups in some "unifying" way - given their obviously great diversity  of experience, culture and history? Yes. Apart from its "everyday" meaning, the term has a real and specific usage found in national and international law, political, historical and anthropological academia, and specialised organisational and representational literature. Contemporary usage or identification as indigenous is an often quite explicit, even political act, made by the communities themselves or other organisations. The current main Indigenous peoples article does not (as yet!) fully cover this latter point, however where claim to indigenous identity exists it is an important facet of inter-societal relations, national and trans-national debates, and conflicts. Articles on nations, peoples and cultures would be incomplete if they omit reference to indigenous claims where they are substantively made, whether they are fully recognised or not. Indigenous status and recognition has important ramifications for (nearly all) societies at large. As such it is a notable occurrence and worthy of encyclopaedic inclusion- whatever one may personally think about the merits and methods of the claims and counter-claims.
 * 2) Given that indigenous peoples in the sense above has a valid meaning, why bother to explicitly identify particular groups as indigenous within Wikipedia? A key tool of research is the ability to be able to do comparative studies. Someone interested in the subject should therefore be able to easily track down references to particular indigenous peoples, or peoples for whom this claim is made. The indigenous peoples article itself primarily discusses the case in general only, particular cases will mostly appear elsewhere, not commonly linked. Even if the only thing in common between groups is their varied experience of indigenous status, it is surely useful to be able to review particular cases.
 * 3) How best then to accomplish this? Categories and "List of..." articles are two complimentary solutions. Browsing by category is frequently used, and Lists can summarise and be organised in useful ways (eg by region). The recent changes feature can be used in both to monitor the development of these thematically-related articles, without interfering with other classification schemes. Having this category will clearly assist anyone interested in the topic.
 * 4) But there are many such groups, the divisions are not always clear or undisputed, and they may not be specifically or commonly referred to as indigenous. Indeed, there are literally thousands of cultural and ethnic groups and sub-groups. However this in itself should not be a barrier to the attempt. There probably never shall be a completely comprehensive and undisputed listing, but the more examples provided the better. As for whether the particular label indigenous is used- for historical and circumstantial reasons, of course different terms are used in different cases. Nevertheless, the core definition may be applied whatever the descriptor, and indigenous peoples is preferentially used in international forums, such as the UN.
 * 5) Finally, we come to the vexed question, how to determine whether or not any particular group ought to appear in this category, a decision which may have POV implications- as per the Maasai/Mukogodo-Maasai contrast given above. Recognition of indigenous groups, and even distinction between such groups, can be problematic. But we do not have to rely upon POV judgements. I propose the following criteria:
 * an indigenous people may be identified as such, where notable independent reference(s) can be found that the group's indigenous identity is either asserted or recognised as being indigenous, or some other cognate term, by either:
 * some government, regulatory body, law or protocol, which may be either sub-national, national or trans-national; and/or
 * some body, NGO or other organisation, involved with indigenous affairs and recognised as an accredited participant, intermediary or representative in some legal, negotiative, national or international regulatory or rights-based process; and/or
 * some academic and peer-reviewed literature or publication; and/or
 * some representative body of the indigenous society itself, where that representation is made in respect of a claim or issue to a government or governmentally-supported organisation (eg the UN, African Union).
 * That source should naturally be cited on the relevant page. Of course, the difficulties of just what is or is not a credible, notable source remain, but this is true for all Wikipedia articles. And where there is (independent) contention about a particular group or identity in the field, let that contention be noted in the relevant article (and perhaps here); but let us not omit the reference to the claim of indigenous status altogether, particularly if it is an important dimension in the understanding of that society, its history and present situation.
 * As an addendum - the "misconception" which is noted on the category page here is, I think, validly raised (but could be perhaps better phrased). That is, there is a distinct view that indigenous societies (more generally, subsistence-based societies) are somehow "ancient", necessarily long-standing and little changed, somehow primitive ("not modern"), etc. But this is not so, for a variety of reasons. In short, "ancient peoples" are more properly those who lived in ancient times, which is not a correlate with the term "indigenous".
 * I do not think therefore that this category is "motivated" by this misconception, but rather stands alone as a valid entry, for the reasons outlined above.--cjllw | TALK  03:23, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)

African indigenous communities and claims - a particular case

 * Considering the particular case of, say, certain African communities where the label indigenous may or may not be commonly applied. I would maintain that in fact at least the sense by which they are (self-)identified as specific indigenous communities has been made, and made frequently and notably. There is evidence of this. Many organisations, academics in the cultural and political fields, and the communities themselves seek to expressly associate these African groups with an indigenous identity, however called. A primary purpose in doing so, which as documentors of worldly significant events an act we ought to record, is to put forward their particular rights and claims which arise from their (asserted) indigenous status. This is done within the context of the wider political and regulatory environments in which they now find themselves.
 * To this end, quite a few cooperatives and organisations have been formed comprising of representatives of various African communities, who may well be distinct and yet seek to obtain some outcomes in common. One such is the Indigenous Peoples of Africa Coordinating Committee, who note that:
 * "Today, groups claiming to be ‘indigenous’ in Africa are mostly those who have been living by hunting and gathering or by transhumant (migratory nomadic) pastoralism. These are different peoples who have followed particular trajectories of cultural and economic evolution in specific environmental conditions..."
 * A distinction is noted in the East Africa section, between the "settled" indigenous groups and transhumant groups such as the Maasai; however, these transhumant groups identify as indigenous nevertheless, indeed representatives from this society hold key posts in this organisation.
 * A further example is a submission made in 2002 by an association of Kenyan peoples to the Constitution of Kenya Review Commission, which had as a main objective securing explicit recognition of their indigenous status in the country's constitution. In part this submission states:
 * "Pastoralists and hunter-gatherers (PHG) have identified themselves as indigenous peoples owing to their culture, relationship and spiritual attachment to their ancestral and traditional territories, in Kenya, and seek to have the new Kenyan Constitution recognize them as such...It is important for PHG ethnic communities to be named and specifically identified within the constitution as groups forming the Kenyan State and owing allegiance to it. This will mean that ethnic groups as constituent parts of the Kenyan state will be recognized and will no longer be submerged under a “Kenyan identity” which only reflects the cultures, history and traditions of the dominant communities."
 * The claimant groups are identified as:
 * "...the terms “Pastoralists and Hunter-Gatherers” will be identified as indigenous peoples, in reference to and as conceived and adopted under the International Labour Organization Convention (ILO) No. 169 of 1989. These peoples in Kenya include the Maasai, Samburu, Turkana, Ogiek, Sengwer, Terik, Orma, Wardei Somali, Borana, Rendille, Sanya, Ellmollo, to name but a few."
 * Whether or to what degree their claims are acknowledged by this particular government, the participation and identification of these groups as indigenous in this context is clearly a significant component of their current status, and as such would be appropriate to document in relevant articles. The same applies naturally to all such groups in Africa or elsewhere who share similar positions.
 * Delegates from many African communities have frequently appeared before bodies such as the UN Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, representing their people and indigenous claims and concerns. One such example can be found at this link.
 * All that being said, I propose that groups such as the Maasai are valid candidates for this category, and further that useful mention might be made of their concerns re territorial, cultural, political, and resource rights and claims in the wider political and social context.--cjllw | TALK  03:23, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)

 * Thank you, cjllw, for your thorough and sensible response. I find your remarks very astute and upon reading, I must admit that I did not research the issue as deeply as you obviously did. I am convinced by your account — I agree that this category is a valid and useful one, and that both Maasai and Mukogodo-Maasai could very well be included in this category. Incidentally, I'm very glad with your research in that particular case as I wasn't sufficiently aware of the quest for constitutional recognition of many of the peoples I've been writing articles on (Terik, Okiek, etc.). In short: my apologies for rushing matters and thank you for your sensible response.
 * By the way, I have removed this category from Category:Ancient peoples. We should find a suitable alternative. Category:Ethnic groups might be a good one. — mark ✎ 11:33, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks, Mark. For the moment, I have parented this category with Category:Human societies, Category:Anthropology, and Category:Ethnic groups, until the overall categorisation schema can be more fully reviewed.--cjllw | TALK  07:11, 2005 Jun 17 (UTC)

I still find this category problematic. "Indigenous people" is used often (I would say primarily) in political advocacy, making the criterion "some representative body of the indigenous society itself" especially problematic, if not inherently POV, while "some recognised body, NGO or other organisation, involved at least in part with indigenous affairs" seems very vague. The other two sound good, at least in principle. Also, the word itself is a misnomer, if a widely used one. - Mustafaa 19:15, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * It is true that claims to indigenous status often have a political aspect, even explicitly so. However, this in itself does not mean it is inappropriate to document these in Wikipedia. WP records many events of a political or contentious nature, and documenting the political experience and aspirations of a people, ethnic group or nation will add to the overall understanding of the relevant topic, no less than social, geographical, historical and demographical data. As long as this is done as per NPOV, notability and citation guidelines, there should hopefully not be cause for issue.

 * I suppose that deciding whether a view or claim coming from a group, body or organisation is representative enough for notability may entail (unavoidably, even) some POV-judgement on behalf of the writer who may wish to use it in an article. But this remains true of other reference sources, and where cited would be subject to the same process of challenge and peer review. Have also now "tightened up" the 2nd & 4th criteria.--cjllw | TALK  2005 June 30 07:20 (UTC)

Sub-categorisation by region
Since there are potentially very many entries which could be made in this category, further sub-categorisation by region and sub-region would be useful, particularly for articles on individual indigenous groups. To be comprehensive, the following breakdown is suggested: where these regions and sub-regions encompass the areas delineated in their respective Wikipedia geographic articles.
 * Africa
 * Central Africa
 * East Africa
 * North Africa
 * Southern Africa
 * West Africa
 * Americas
 * Caribbean
 * Central America
 * North America
 * South America
 * Asia
 * Central Asia
 * East Asia
 * North Asia
 * South Asia
 * Southeast Asia
 * Southwest Asia
 * Circumpolar North
 * Europe
 * Oceania
 * Australia
 * Melanesia
 * Micronesia
 * Polynesia

A given indigenous people or group should be placed in its relevant sub-regional category, and optionally perhaps the "continental" region as well - instead of under the parent Category:Indigenous peoples. Note that there may be some overlap between the regions as these are not always uniformly defined, and further that some groups may warrant placement in more than one regional sub-category, if they are so distributed.

Further sub-categories by country may also be warranted/convenient, where there are a significant number of different groups.

Presently, Wikipedia has collective articles and reasonable coverage on Indigenous peoples of the Americas (cf. Native Americans), but indigenous peoples of other regions are in the main poorly represented.--cjllw | TALK  2005 June 30 08:17 (UTC)

 * Further to the above, and as implied on Category:Indigenous peoples of North America, bringing this here, for a while now there's been a need for sub-regions of North America to have their own cats; i.e. not in the subcats of Category:Aboriginal peoples in Canada and Category:Indigenous peoples in the United States, with their respect province/state subcats Category:First Nations in British Columbia or Category:Native American tribes in Washington, as examples. The culture-areas reflected in Category:Indigenous languages of the Americas are pretty much correlative to the propose category structure: not sure of all titles but here's samples:

And I'll leave it there, as I'm not sure at all about Great Plains/Woodlands/Appalachia/Southeast etc....I'm mostly concerned about the NW Coast and Plateau, as there's a heap of articles/peoples in that region and will be lots more;f if not objections I'm just going to start the NW Coast peoples cat; it has a main article already Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast.Skookum1 (talk) 22:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Category:Indigenous peoples of the North American Northwest Coast
 * Category:Indigenous peoples of the North American Northwest Plateau
 * Category:Indigenous peoples of the North American Southwest or Category:Native Americans in the American Southwest
 * Category:Indigenous peoples of the North American Great Basin or Category:Native American tribes of the North American Great Basin...
 * Category:Native American tribes in California (nb already exists)
 * Category:Alaska Native ethnic groups (nb already exists, would be subcat of Arctic, Sub-Arctic and NW Cosat cats)
 * Category:Indigenous peoples of the North American Sub-Arctic
 * Category:Indigenous peoples of the North American Arctic
 * Riffing off my fixes to the category names, the California cat is OK as a name, although I think there's some overlap with Mexico (albeit Mexican California but also inland I think), but mostly because there's no probs with the Native American/First Nations problem re overlaps with Canada, which is why "Indigenous peoples" works for the Northwest Coast; which btw also overlaps with Alaska Native but by only one tribe (Tlingit, who are also in Category:First Nations in British Columbia and Category:First Nations in Yukon but not in th Sub-Arctic category, curiously (as their territory overlaps with that of peoples in the Sub-Arctic grouping).
 * Here's the listing of related language-area subcats:

Which I guess is more than an adequate breakdown for the suggested corresponding "ethno" cats. That last one looks like for standards' sake should be Category:Indigenous languages of teh North American Eastern Woodlands. All these will overlap and sometimes haev as subcats the respectiev linguistic-group and province/state cats in various ways.Skookum1 (talk) 23:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Tidied this up some; there are reasons, apparently, why some of these langaugae-areas don't work as culture areas, or aas regions to divide other culture-areas up by; I'm mostly concenred with those in my (northwestern) area/turf; I know the Anishinaabe already have a subproject of the NorthAmNative project, for example...but that's delineation by ethnic group, not culture area, or is it?Skookum1 (talk) 23:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Category:Indigenous languages of California
 * Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Arctic
 * Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Great Basin
 * Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Northwest Coast
 * Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Plains
 * Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Plateau
 * Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Southeast
 * Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Southwest
 * Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Subarctic
 * Category:Indigenous languages of the North American eastern woodlands

Bad link to Category::Indigenous peoples of Southeast Asia
User:Sinama-Webmaster/Sama people is turning up listed under < S > on the Category--Indigenous peoples of Southeast Asia page. I have edited his user page to break the link but it is still appearing Felix505 (talk) 19:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Category:Indigenous_peoples_of_North_Asia vs. Indigenous peoples of the Russian North
I having issues with the term "Indigenous peoples of North Asia" as it looks like original research. Both within Russia and internationally "North Asia" is simply not a common geographic frame of refernce. The same is true for UN contexts. Here, when indigenous peoples are being categorised by region, the regions will typically comprise: Latin America, Asia (which almost always excludes Russia), Africa, North America, sometimes Oceania and either Europe including Russia or Europe and Russia as two distinct regions. The term most commonly used is "indigenous small-numbered peoples of the North, Siberia and the Far East", or "indigenous peoples of the (Russian) North, for short.

Another problem with "indigenous peoples of North Asia" is, that it excludes indigenous peoples in the European North of Russia. For indigenous peoples in Russia, the distinction between the European and Asian parts of the Country is entirely meaningless. Nenets live on both sides of the Ural, on either side they are indigenous. If you have a look a the interwiki links of Category:Indigenous peoples of North Asia, you will note the inconsistency. Most notably, the Russian counterpart is called: ru:Категория:Коренные народы Севера (=Category:Indigenous peoples of the [Russian] North),. So if the category is to remain in en.wp, the interwiki links will have to be removed, because the English category is different from the Russian one.

There is another problem making the whole thing not that complicated: The Russian term excludes ethnic group of more than 50,000 individuals, thus, in Russian contexts, the Buryat, Yakut, Tuvans, Komi and Khakass are not recognised as indigenous.

So maybe there should be two separate categories which will be largely overlapping: Indigenous peoples of the Russian North (as a political categorisation, in accordance with the definition stemming from Russian legislation) and "indigenous peoples of North Asia" as a merely geographical categorisation. In addition, there are, I would say, the indigenous peoples of the (geographical) Artic, which includes some but not all of Russia's IP of both the Asian and European parts as well as of Northern Scandinavia, Greenland & North America. So, the Chukchi would end up in three categories: IP 1) of North Asia, 2) of the Russian North and 3) of the circumpolar rim, the Nenets even in four, the fourth one being IP of Europe, as they are living to both sides of the Ural. The Yakut would go into IP of North Asia & of the Circumpolar Rim but not into IP of the Russian North, as they are not legally indigenous in Russia. The Udege would be IP of North Asia and of the Russian North but not of the Circumpolar Rim, as they live too far to the south..

What would you think of such an approach? --Johannes Rohr (talk) 09:55, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

 * So, I have now added a regions sub-category Category:Indigenous peoples of Russia with a sub-category Category:Indigenous small-numbered peoples of the North, Siberia and the Far East and I have changed the interwiki links accordingly. --Johannes Rohr (talk) 07:28, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Good try Mr Rohr. Still do not solve the actual situation, we Lapps are still excluded - we're not found in Russia at all, not especially far north and certainly not in Asia. And as we are the same as the Kildin and Samojed - (lingustic similarities as well as DNA show that we split about 6000 years ago according to research) - we ourselves use the term 'circum polar peoples' and solve the geographical problem in one stroke. (Talking of which the page about 'Forest sami' claim were extinct. - the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Sami Despite that fact I sit here writing a comment at you - you better have a serious look at the english page.

The Swedish page the text is borrowed from states that the Forest Sami culture vanished from a point South of Malå forest sami community - which is true but not that we're extinct - all communities north of that point still exist and were fine and very active thank you. :)

So yes just like the Chukchi - I guess you meant to type Tjucktj there, they have some small splinter in Alaska as well. Same for us Lapps we get split also. So once again, I think you better go with 'Arctic native peoples' instead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.208.94.161 (talk) 14:06, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

title: Category talk:Indigenous peoples


text:
The Nature of Truth

The Nature of Truth is a novel by Sergio Troncoso first published in 2003 by Northwestern University Press. It explores righteousness and evil, Yale and the Holocaust. Arte Público Press published a revised and updated paperback edition of Troncoso's novel in 2014.

Plot summary
Helmut Sanchez is a young researcher in the employ of renowned Yale professor Werner Hopfgartner. By chance, Helmut discovers a letter written decades ago by his boss mocking guilt over the Holocaust. Appalled, Helmut digs into the scholar's life and travels to Austria and Italy to uncover evidence of Hopfgartner's hateful past. Meanwhile, Hopfgartner's colleague and rival, Regina Neumann, wants to reveal the truth about Hopfgartner's sexual liaisons with vulnerable students before the professor's imminent retirement. Neumann traps Sarah Goodman, an insecure graduate student trying to find her place at Yale, into initiating formal charges of sexual harassment against Hopfgartner. Soon Helmut's intellectual quest for the truth metamorphoses into a journey of justice and blood, one with unforeseen consequences.

Characters in "The Nature of Truth"

 * Helmut Sanchez – the researcher, protagonist
 * Ariane Sassolini – Helmut's girlfriend
 * Werner Hopfgartner – Helmut's university employer
 * Sarah Goodman – Hopfgartner's graduate student
 * Regina Neumann – Hopfgartner's colleague and rival
 * Jonathan Atwater – Helmut's library friend
 * Jack Rosselli – New Haven Detective

Main themes
Troncoso's novel explores how a man of Mexican-German heritage navigates a complex moral universe, and how his experience reveals the differences and links between righteousness and evil in the quest for the truth. In an interview for Prime Number Journal in 2015, Troncoso said: "I had read Heidegger as a graduate student at Yale, and Being and Time was fascinating to me, particularly the concept of Being-towards-death....I was always shocked by the intellectual violence I witnessed at many Ivy League seminars, how people would just eviscerate each other with words, in pursuit of 'The Truth,' and how often they would lose themselves in these arguments. They would lose their humanity, in my opinion....I did not want to lose myself as a philosopher, and lose my heritage, and lose my humanity. I wanted to write a novel about someone wrestling with these issues of morality and identity, someone picking and choosing where he goes and who he is, a moral actor stumbling badly as he is consumed by the pursuit of 'The Truth,' and then finding himself with the help of friends."

Literary significance & criticism
A reviewer from Prime Number Journal wrote: "Sergio Troncoso's first novel—recently revised, expanded, and rereleased by Arte Publico Press—is a daring departure from the personal essays Troncoso is famed for....The Nature of Truth is not a thriller in the sense of pulp fiction; no, Troncoso's The Nature of Truth is a thriller in the way Richard Wright's Native Son is a thriller. And it's an erudite reader's novel in the way of Philip Roth's The Human Stain is. Troncoso's work places the reader on a knife's edge of suspense, while challenging the reader to examine and question The [very] Nature of Truth, whether that truth be racially defined, intellectually constructed, or a scepter rising from ancient ideals of right and wrong....

Troncoso's The Nature of Truth informs his mature works—From This Wicked Patch of Dust and Crossing Borders: Personal Essays—as they examine the ideas of borders, their permeability, and their dualistic nature of the real and the imagined. Without the intellectual questioning of truth in The Nature of Truth, his mature works, I believe, would not have been possible. Troncoso, primarily known for his US-Mexican Border works, is, as The Nature of Truth suggests, the brightest and most able of the modern Border writers and thinkers. And somewhere in Troncoso's raising within the Border's transnational diaspora, he found that the nature of truth can only be located in the confines of the self, the family, the community, and our own definition of the truth."

A reviewer from Janus Head, a journal of Continental Philosophy, Literature, and Phenomenological Psychology, wrote: "It is with this trio [Helmut Sanchez, Ariane Sassolini, and Detective Jack Rosselli] that the author excels as both fictionist and moral epistemologist. When Helmut ventures beyond good and evil, Troncoso refuses to leave his reader behind. It is more than a liberating world, Troncoso suggests. It's also nightmarish one, inducing the worst symptoms of psychosis even in its most well-meaning inhabitants. In conveying this, Troncoso's powers of characterization and description are equal to his analytic ones: "The blade in his hand glimmered in the moonlight. He sliced into the fatty tissue of his forearm. He felt exquisite pain. Blood, hot blood, ran out of his arm. Helmut clenched his fist, and the red stream became fuller, warmer, quicker." With Ariane Sassolini, Troncoso gives us a hero for the story playing out in the novel's subtext. A scholar every bit as inquisitive as Helmut, Ariane yet comes to embody the truth that Helmut has forsaken: that conventional taboos, though conventional, serve a grand ethical purpose. When her crisis arrives, again in the form of knowledge, she must make a life-altering decision, and her one of compassion and forgiveness for Helmut betrays a moral fortitude far exceeding that of her beloved. Rosselli, on the other hand, lacks the imagination required for compassion that large. He's too mired in the data of criminology to ever truly understand the criminal. Unable to identify the real killer, motivated not by vengeance but by idealism, Rosselli allows an innocent man, Atwater, to suffer at the hands of thugs.

Clearly, then, The Nature of Truth is no allegory. All three of the characters come to embody more than a philosophic agenda. But operating within the minds of each is a set of epistemic practices that Troncoso deftly contrasts. When juxtaposed, the Nietzschean valor of Sanchez, the Christian pragmatism of Sassolini and the blind inductivism of Rosselli make for a sustained, intellectual tension that perfectly complements the narrative one. If Troncoso occasionally tips his hand, as he does when Helmut self-consciously asks "What was morality anyway?", or when the street-wise Rosselli puts forth a rather academic-sounding theory of racial division, the author is careful never to make the conflict between his characters' "truths" too explicit. The subtlety, and fairness, with which Troncoso presents these conflicting frameworks stand as the novel's crowning intellectual achievement, side by side with the artistic one: a convincing tale of murder and ruminating guilt."

A reviewer from The Forward wrote: "A sentimental tale of love triumphant over bigotry and zealotry, The Nature of Truth enables its philosemitic author to wear his heart on his sleeve, right beside an imaginary yellow star. Troncoso, who has studied and taught at Yale, portrays the campus as an intellectual enclave that tries to remain oblivious to the ambient urban blight. About the strained relationship between New Haven and Yale, he writes: "One was in the gutter, the other was in the clouds." ...

The Nature of Truth is an exploration of the ways in which lies can skew our lives. Over dinner at the end of the novel, Jonathan Atwater—a gay librarian who, like a Jew victimized by Nazi storm troopers, was assaulted by homophobic thugs—presents his theory about the decline of civilization. "Two important things have gone by the wayside, in my opinion," he says, "and I believe they've affected each other in a miserable manner. Family and truth." According to Atwater, truth, disembodied from the living communities that give it meaning, has become a vapid abstraction. The Nature of Truth concludes within the embrace of la familia, in Chicano New Mexico. But ... Troncoso recognizes that, though truth lies within the community, a failure to acknowledge the validity of other communities is the root of lethal lies."

The Nature of Truth won the Bronze Award for Multicultural Fiction from ForeWord Reviews. The novel was also chosen as one of the Top Ten Best Fiction Books for 2014 by TheLatinoAuthor.com.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: The Nature of Truth


text:
Grattan Bridge

Grattan Bridge is a road bridge spanning the River Liffey in Dublin, Ireland, and joining Capel Street to Parliament Street and the south quays.

1st Essex bridge of 1676
The first bridge on this site was developed by Sir Humphrey Jervis in 1676 with William Robinson acting as adviser and contractor. It was named as Essex Bridge to honour Arthur Capell, 1st Earl of Essex, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland who had also provided the finance for the construction of the bridge. It joined several of Jervis' developments (including Capel Street and Jervis Street) to the opposite side of the river and to Dublin Castle.

Essex Bridge was an arched stone structure with seven piers, and apparently partly constructed from the ruined masonry of nearby St. Mary's Abbey, Dublin on the northside. In 1687 the bridge was damaged by a flood resulting in the loss of a hackney and two horses. The damage to the bridge was only partially repaired.

2nd Essex bridge of 1753
In 1751 the second most northerly pier collapsed and damaged the adjacent arches.

Between 1753 and 1755 the bridge was rebuilt by George Semple, to correct flood and other structural damage and as one of the first initiatives of the Wide Streets Commission. The new bridge included stone alcoves or niches on either side of the bridge in a similar manner to London Bridge.

In 1764, John Bush, an English traveller, visited Dublin and had the following to say about the bridge:
 *  "Over this river there are five bridges, one only of which deserves any notice, Essex-bridge, the lowest of all, which is really a well built, spacious and elegant bridge, with raised foot-paths, alcoves, and ballustrading, on the plan of Westminster-bridge, and about the same width, but not above one-fifth part so long"

For much of the 18th century, Essex Bridge was the most easterly bridge on the Liffey and marked the furthest point upriver to which ships with masts could travel. Many ships needed to travel this far upriver in order to berth in front of the old Custom House, the centre of merchant activity in the city from 1707 until 1791.

During this construction, some original features were removed, including the equestrian statue of George I, by John van Nost the Elder, which was moved in 1798 to the gardens of the Mansion House. In 1937 it was bought by the Barber Institute of Fine Arts in Birmingham, in front of which it still stands as of 2023.

Grattan Bridge of 1874
From 1872, the bridge was further remodelled (on Westminster Bridge in London) by Parke Neville with further modifications by Bindon Blood Stoney, being widened and flattened with cast iron supports extended out from the stonework so as to carry pavements on either side of the roadway. The bridge was (and is still) lit by ornate lamp standards also in cast iron.

The bridge was reopened as Grattan Bridge in 1874, being named after Henry Grattan MP (1746-1820).

Later development
From 2002, Dublin City Council undertook a reconstruction of the bridge deck, with granite paving for the footpaths and a set of benches with wooden seats and toughened glass backs.

As part of what was intended to be a "European-style book market", in 2004 several temporary kiosks (prefabricated in Spain) were also controversially built on the bridge. Originally intended to create "a contemporary version of an inhabited bridge, such as the Ponte Vecchio in Florence", these kiosks were later removed.

Nomenclature
As is tradition among Dubliners, the name used locally for the bridge will vary from Capel Street Bridge, to Grattan Bridge and the original Essex Bridge.

title: Grattan Bridge


text:
Canadian Urban Transit Association

The Canadian Urban Transit Association (CUTA) is a national association for urban mobility and both the public and private transit industries in Canada. It represents the country's transit agencies and additional third-party stakeholders at both the federal and provincial/territorial levels, as well as advocates more broadly for sustainable urban mobility, conducts policy research pertaining to the industry, and produces thought leadership on urban transit in North America.

History
In December 1904, a group of officials from six street railway companies formed the Canadian Street Railway Association. It was renamed the Canadian Transit Association in 1932. After several name changes, the Canadian Urban Transit Association (CUTA) was adopted in 1973.

Initially membership was restricted to privately owned systems, however the rapid development of the bus and its use by founding members, promoted changes to the Association's constitution. In 1920, municipally owned systems were welcomed along with non-operating members such as suppliers.

Many issues discussed by CUTA's predecessors remain in discussion today such as traffic congestion, competition by the private automobile, vehicle design, transit marketing, relations with and regulation by government, and transit priority. New to the agenda in recent decades are the matters of achieving sustainable funding.

CUTA has defended the industry and actively promoted public transit across Canada. More recently, it has assisted government by laying the foundations of major transit funding programs. Since its foundation, Association members have benefited from CUTA's resources and training expertise.

To mark the centennial of the Canadian Urban Transit Association in 2004, CUTA prepared a publication to document the many activities, achievements and challenges facing public transit systems since that 1904 winter day in Montreal when the association was born. A Century of Moving Canada is the name of this publication.

Membership has grown to over 500 members, including 120 transit systems, 280 manufacturers, suppliers and other businesses, as well as numerous affiliates and government agencies.

Activities
CUTA's main office is located in Toronto, with a public affairs office in Ottawa. CUTA's ongoing activities and services are divided into six program areas, designed to serve the key requirements of the association's transit system, business, government and affiliate members. Where appropriate, these areas are linked to CUTA's National Committees, which are intended to serve in an ongoing advisory capacity:

 * Government Relations and Public Affairs
 * Communications
 * Technical Services
 * Education and Training
 * Administrative and Financial Support
 * Association Governance

CUTA has five regional and five national committees. The Regional Committees comprise Atlantic, Quebec, Ontario, Prairies and Territories, and British Columbia provinces. They meet periodically for information sharing on issues of mutual interest. The national committees are Business Members, Communication and Public Affairs, Human Resources, Technical Services and Transit Board Members. These committees are being aligned with Transit Vision 2040 in order to proactively address the six themes contained in the Report. The purpose of the Business Members Committee is to represent the interests of all Business Members relating to the policies and direction of the Association. The Communications and Public Affairs Committee communicates messages to all stakeholders about the important role of transit in a sustainable transportation system. This committee also oversees CUTA advocacy and government relations activities and has a sub-committee responsible for conference planning. The Human Resources Committee provides a forum to assist CUTA members in promoting Human Resource best practices within their systems through research, training and information exchange. A sub-committee manages the CUTA National Recognition Awards Program. The purpose of the Technical Services Committee is to promote the effectiveness of public transit and to encourage best practices in the industry by way of research and development and through the exchange of information in the areas of operations, planning, bus design and maintenance. There are sub-committees representing vehicle technology, standards and maintenance; planning and ITS; statistics; and accessible transit. The purpose of the Transit Board Members Committee is to provide a forum for exchange and promoting public transit among municipal decision-makers, identify current and emerging municipal issues of concern to the industry and provide assistance in resolving them, as well as to raise awareness and promote the use of CUTA activities and transit best practices throughout the municipal sector.

Transit Vision 2040
In 2009, CUTA embarked on an initiative that involves the development of an industry vision, framing a comprehensive definition of the role of public transit in Canada for a 30-year time horizon. Transit Vision 2040 communicates transit's contribution to quality of life, the nature of change likely to take place in Canadian communities by 2040, the implications these changes will have on transit, and strategic directions for actions that can maximize transit's contribution to overall quality of life.

Transit Vision 2040 is about putting transit at the center of communities, expansion and innovation, focusing on customers, accelerating the delivery of integrated transit services, improving the ecological footprint of transit services, ensuring financial health, and strengthening knowledge and practice so that Canada's transit industry can more effectively respond to future opportunities and challenges.

This Vision takes a long-term view, but it is intended to guide concrete short-term actions by CUTA, its members and other stakeholders. The Vision has particular relevance for transit agencies and can serve as a framework for strategic planning efforts by individual systems.

title: Canadian Urban Transit Association


text:
Jack of Diamonds

Jack of Diamonds may refer to:
 * Jack of diamonds (playing card)
 * Jack of Diamonds (artists), Russian school
 * The Jack of Diamonds, a 1949 film directed by Vernon Sewell
 * Jack of Diamonds (1967 film), a film directed by Don Taylor
 * "Jack of Diamonds" (song), a traditional folk song
 * Jack of Diamonds (novel), a 2012 novel by Bryce Courtenay

title: Jack of Diamonds


text:
Liberty, West Virginia

Liberty is an unincorporated community in Putnam County, West Virginia, United States. It is located on WV 34 between Red House and Fishers Ridge.

title: Liberty, West Virginia


text: User talk:216.83.116.2

title: User talk:216.83.116.2


text:
Talk:Charlestown, County Mayo

Untitled
Anyone remember the book about this place - "And no-one shouted stop", or something like that? I think I have it, will shove some stuff up on it later. --Kiand 13:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Useful external link to Local Area Plan of Bellaghy/Charlestown made by Sligo County Council and Mayo County Council http://www.sligococo.ie/Services/Planning/LocalAreaPlans/DraftCharlestown-BellaghyLAP/ (J Owens) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.191.232.98 (talk) 11:26, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Charlestown, County Mayo


text:
Talk:Picture bride

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 February 2021 and 17 March 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Bokchoychoy. Peer reviewers: EpicCarnage12.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 06:38, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Renovation
THIS ENTIRE ENTRY IS UNDER RENOVATION TO BE DONE BY THE END OF NOVEMBER 2010. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Picturebride250 (talk • contribs) 20:17, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Am I missing something, or should this be at Picture bride?

This article is completely lacking the Japanese side of the equation.

Oriental exclusion act
Modified this to refer to the Immigration Act of 1924. The Oriental Exclusion Act's proper name is the Chinese Exclusion Act, which was put in place in 1882. It was renewed several times but has no particular connection to the year 1924. --Bookgrrl 03:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

HEY!
Only Korean picture brides?! The novel and book mentioned were both about Japanese picture brides, why aren't the Japanese mentioned? It was a pretty major part of Japanese American history, and its beginning is even listed in the Japanese-American History article as "1908, Japanese picture brides enter the United States". It's how a lot of the Japanese men got their wives in Hawai'i. The deceitful practices of some husbands (the outdated photos, etc.) were also present there, and some wives chose to refuse to marry their husbands and demanded to go back to Japan, and some later abandoned their husbands. Please see: Encyclopedia of Japanese American History: An A-to-Z Reference from 1868 to the Present. Ed. Brian Niiya. Updated Edition. New York: Facts on File, Inc, 2001. for info. I can't do this right now, so could someone please help? 169.229.121.94 08:12, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, the Introduction to the Making of Picture Bride link in the article is pretty good as a source of information. 169.229.121.94 08:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Article assessment
Hello. I have assessed this article for WikiProject Asian Americans. Based on a cursory glance the article appears fairly comprehensive, so I have ranked it "b-class." With some editing it would be a good contender for good article status! Harej (talk) 00:50, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Picture bride. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Bibliography for Potential Edits to Article
Hello! I've compiled a small list of sources for further additions to the "Motives of picture brides" and "Immigration" sections of this article. I'm hoping someone would be interested in looking over the list and giving their opinion. I've read all the sources, and the information within seems very useful. Bibliography here. Please note that I had added one of the citations to the article in an edit already. Feel free to look over the edit as well. Thank you! Bokchoychoy (talk) 01:27, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Picture bride


text:
William Heard (cardinal)

William Theodore Heard (24 February 1884 – 16 September 1973) was a cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church.

Life
He was born in Edinburgh, the eldest son of Rev Dr William Augustus Heard (1847–1921), a housemaster of Fettes College, and his wife, Elizabeth Tamar Burt (who died when William Theodore was only four). They lived at Carrington House on Comely Bank, one of the school's boarding houses.

He was educated at Fettes College, of which his father was by then headmaster, a role he held from 1887 until 1912. He then studied divinity at Balliol College, Oxford, where he also rowed. He was baptised conditionally and confirmed on 9 August 1910 by Father Stanislaus St John SJ in the Farm Street Church of The Immaculate Conception in Mayfair, central London. In 1913 he was accepted as a candidate for the priesthood by Bishop (later Archbishop) Peter Amigo of Southwark, having failed in his application to the Archdiocese of Saint Andrews and Edinburgh, and studied at the Pontifical Gregorian University, Rome, where he obtained a doctorate in philosophy in 1915 and doctorates in both theology and canon law in 1921.

He was ordained to the priesthood aged 34 years in the Lateran Basilica on 30 March 1918 by Basilio Pompili, Vicar General for Rome. He acted as confessor for the students of the Venerable English College, Rome, from 1918 to 1921 and again from 1927 until the 1960s. In 1921 he was appointed curate at the Most Holy Trinity parish in Dockhead, Bermondsey. He was named a domestic prelate by Pope Pius XI on 30 September 1927, and on the following day, 1 October 1927, he was named auditor of the Tribunal of the Roman Rota (the judicial part of the Roman Curia), which acts as the Supreme Court of Appeal in the administration of the canon law of the Roman Catholic Church. In 1958 he was appointed dean of the Roman Rota and made cardinal one year later when he was appointed cardinal deacon of the titular church San Teodoro. Three years later he was appointed bishop of the titular see of Feradi Maius and consecrated bishop by Pope John XXIII in the same basilica in which he was ordained priest. He attended all four sessions of the Second Vatican Council from 1962 to 1965 and participated in the conclave of 1963, which elected Pope Paul VI.

For a number of years in the late 1950s and early 1960s, Heard served as an external confessor to the students of the Scots College, Rome, particularly during the summer season, when the students moved to the college villa at Marino.

In 1970 he was elevated to cardinal priest of San Teodoro, as was customary for cardinal deacons after serving for ten years in that capacity.

After a lengthy illness and with failing sight and hearing, he died in the clinic at S. Stefano Rotondo on 16 September 1973, aged 89. His funeral took place in St Peter's Basilica in the Vatican and he was buried in the Campo Verano cemetery, Rome.

title: William Heard (cardinal)


text:
User talk:202.156.2.58

Nomination of Julia DeMato for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Julia DeMato is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Julia DeMato& until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. Bgsu98  (Talk)  00:45, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

title: User talk:202.156.2.58


text:
Apparent place

The apparent place of an object is its position in space as seen by an observer. Because of physical and geometrical effects it may differ from the "true" or "geometric" position.

Astronomy
In astronomy, a distinction is made between the mean position, apparent position and topocentric position of an object.

Position of a star
The mean position of a star (relative to the observer's adopted coordinate system) can be calculated from its value at an arbitrary epoch, together with its actual motion over time (known as proper motion). The apparent position is its position as seen by a theoretical observer at the centre of the moving Earth. Several effects cause the apparent position to differ from the mean position:

 * Annual aberration – a deflection caused by the velocity of the Earth's motion around the Sun, relative to an inertial frame of reference. This is independent of the distance of the star from the Earth.
 * Annual parallax – the apparent change in position due to the star being viewed from different places as the Earth orbits the Sun in the course of a year. Unlike aberration, this effect depends on the distance of the star, being larger for nearby stars.
 * Precession – a long-term (ca. 26,000 years) variation in the direction of the Earth's axis of rotation.
 * Nutation – shorter-term variations in the direction of the Earth's axis of rotation.

The Apparent Places of Fundamental Stars is an astronomical yearbook, which is published one year in advance by the Astronomical Calculation Institute (Heidelberg University) in Heidelberg, Germany. It lists the apparent place of about 1000 fundamental stars for every 10 days and is published as a book and in a more extensive version on the Internet.

Solar System objects
The apparent position of a planet or other object in the Solar System is also affected by light-time correction, which is caused by the finite time it takes light from a moving body to reach the observer. Simply put, the observer sees the object in the position where it was when the light left it.

Theoretically, light-time correction could also be calculated for more distant objects, such as stars, but in practice it is ignored. The movement of an object since the light left it is not needed because the mean position is the mean position of where it appears to be, not of where it once was. Unlike planets, these objects basically appear to move in straight lines, so for normal use no complicated calculation is needed to find their mean position.

Topocentric position
The topocentric position of a body is that seen by an actual observer on the Earth, and differs from the apparent position as a result of the following effects:

 * Diurnal aberration – a deflection caused by the velocity of the observer's motion around the Earth's centre, due to its rotation.
 * Diurnal parallax – the apparent change in position due to the object being viewed from different places as the observer's position rotates around the Earth's axis.
 * Polar motion – small changes in the position of the Earth's axis of rotation relative to its surface.
 * Atmospheric refraction – a deflection of the light from the object caused by its passage through the Earth's atmosphere.

title: Apparent place


text:
User talk:Rintrah

Archives

 * 1) Archive 1
 * 2) Archive 2
 * 3) Archive 3

Cúcuta
Could you please help me to copyedit this section of the article of Cúcuta?

Thanks,

--Ricardo Ramírez 23:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Fifth Melbourne meetup
The fifth meetup of Melbourne Wikipedians is being planned as a breakfast meeting in the city with Jimbo Wales (at a venue to be arranged) on Friday, 27 April 2007.

Jimbo has proposed breakfast as the one real window of opportunity during his tightly scheduled stay in Melbourne. Tbe precise time has to be sorted out with Jimbo, but the arrangements for the equivalent Adelaide meetup a few days before may give a good idea.

Feel free to edit the relevant page in any way that might be helpful. I feel like a bit of an interloper, not having attended previous meetups. If there's anything you can do to help, I'll be grateful. Please think about whether you'll be able to make it, assuming the arrangements are similar to those Adelaide is adopting (i.e. a block of time with people being fairly free to arrive when it suits them). Some indication on the page of your possible participation would be really helpful.

(I see that this account is said to be permanently inactive. I've left this message in case, but unless I hear otherwise I'll delete you from the list of potential participants in Melbourne meetups.)Metamagician3000 06:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:Ms_hit_wizard.JPG listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Ms_hit_wizard.JPG, has been listed at. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Bigr Tex  20:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

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Image:Casque_cat.jpg listed for deletion
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Image:Thundercats2.jpg
Hello Rintrah, an automated process has found an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, such as fair use. The image (Image:Thundercats2.jpg) was found at the following location: User talk:Rintrah/Archive 1. This image or media will be removed per statement number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media will be replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg, so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. The image that was replaced will not be automatically deleted, but it could be deleted at a later date. Articles using the same image should not be affected by my edits. I ask you to please not re-add the image to your userpage and could consider finding a replacement image licensed under either the Creative Commons or GFDL license or released to the public domain. Thanks for your attention and cooperation. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 01:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Melbourne meetup 6
Hi. This is a reminder to people on the Melbourne meetup participation list that the next meetup has been arranged for 19 June. Could you indicate on the meetup page your likely attendence, or otherwise. Regards. - Cuddy Wifter 23:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Melbourne Meetup
Hello! The Melburnians are having another meet-up! Please consult this page if you are interested to participate in the discussion! Thanks! Phgao 03:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

League of Copyeditors roll call
Melon ‑ Bot  ( STOP! )  17:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Melbourne meetup this Saturday
Hi there! You are cordially invited to a meetup at North Melbourne this Saturday (23 July). Details and an attendee list are at Meetup/Melbourne 16 Hope to see you there! JVbot (talk) 05:13, 20 July 2011 (UTC) (this automated message was delivered to all users at Meetup/Melbourne/Participants)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:04, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Rintrah


text:
Talk:Spanish grammar/Archive 1

Tenses

 * In Spain "I saw you yesterday" is said te he visto ayer, and in Latin America it is te vi ayer.

In Spain, you wouldn't use he visto with ayer. It's a matter of aspect, I think.

Maybe What did she say? = ¿Qué ha dicho?/¿Qué dijo?.

--- In fact, it is not a matter of aspect; both "he visto" (called the "pretérito perfecto")and "vi" (the "pretérito indefinido") are perfective past forms. The difference is much more of a time frame.

"Ví" is used when the action happened in a lapse of time that it's already gone, so is used with words like "el año pasado" ("last year"), "la semana pasada" ("last week"), or "ayer" ("yesterday"). "He visto" is used when the lapse of time is still going on: "este año" ("this year"), "hoy" ("today"), etc. The only exception is when the time lapse is smaller than a day: "te he visto esta mañana" ("I saw you this morning", even when the morning is gone, but the day is still not finished).

So, we would say "¿Qué ha dicho?" is she said something just a moment ago, or this morning, or at some time before the day ends, and "¿Qué dijo?" if that happened yestarday.

In any case, the "pretérito perfecto" can be used when the perception of the current period of time has not yet ended; so you can say "siempre he dicho..." ("I've always said..."), since the period of time is asumed to be your lifetime, which has not ended yet. XC 13:47, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I shall incorporate all these verb issues into the article, probably tomorrow. Chameleon 13:26, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sustantivos ambiguos
I'm not and expert in linguistics but as spanish native speaker i doubt 'ázucar is a good example of an ambiguous substantive.

The article says that a vacilant substantive has not definied gender. But for me, azucar is belongs to female gender. If you put an adjetive to azúcar, you have to decline in its female form: el azúcar rubiA, azúcar refinadA. I've never heard azúcar rubiO, azúcar refinadO, and for me it seems the use of the article el is to avoid cacofonía on some female susbtantives article that begin with and a (ha).(el hacha está oxidadA).

Baloo rch 17:55, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Azúcar Moreno is a popular music duo in Spain.
 * I checked my shelves and sugar is labelled "azúcar blanco", but "azúcar blanquilla" seems a trade term.
 * Maybe mar or aceite are better examples.
 * -- Error 00:35, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree, mar is definitevely a better example. I'm not sure (the article is very extense) but i think that the use of el article with female substantive is not explained.

 * From memory, the el in el agua is not the same as in el brazo. It is an dissimilated form from the old female article ela. -- Error 01:44, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Another thing: The word suBstantivo(like I wrote in the section title) is the traditional form of the word. In modern spanish (~1980-)all (most of them at least) the bs were replaced by 's'. If you see the RAE definition of substantivo you'll find 1. adj. sustantivo. U. t. c. s.
 * Baloo rch 14:15, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Ú.t.c.s. means Úsase también como sustantivo. So according to DRAE, substantivo may be a noun but sustantivo is an adjective. Whatever. -- Error 01:44, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * No, it's not the traditional form of that word. I checked the DRAE for substantivo and yes, I did found that. But check the entry on sustantivo and you'll find:

 * 1. adj. Que tiene existencia real, independiente, individual.
 * 2. adj. Importante, fundamental, esencial.
 * 3. m. Gram. nombre sustantivo.

 * Therefore, the use of sustantivo as an adjective does NOT correspond to the sustantivo you are referring to (that is, "noun"). And, since substantivo is an adjective, again according to the RAE, it does not mean "noun".
 * By the way, I think "azúcar" is a good example of ambiguous substantive (yes, in English it's allowed). Just like you, I'm no linguist, but I do speak Spanish. And I know that the "el" article before feminine nouns is used only before stressed /a/ ("el hacha rota" but "la arveja podrida"). The /a/ in "azúcar" is not stressed, so the "el" is not explained by that rule.
 * And regarding "aceite" and "mar", I've never heard "la aceite" except on this page, and "la mar" only in poetical contexts.
 * From memory, sea workers say la mar. Secano varieties use el mar. -- Error 01:44, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * --Fibonacci 05:44, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

azúcar is a better example than mar because it's more vacillant. Everybody agrees that it's recursos del mar (3400 in Google) and recursos de la mar is almost never used (7 times in Google).

See the following data from Google in Spanish: azúcar-rubio 239, azúcar rubia 858 azúcar refinado 1830, azúcar refinada 3910 con-azúcar-blanco 43, con-azúcar-blanca 172 azúcar-negro 16, azúcar-negra 161 nuestro-azúcar 116, nuestra-azúcar 110 ese-azúcar 255 esa-azúcar 106 azúcar-barato 39 azúcar-barata 44

control group con-algodón-blanco 15 con-algodón-blanca 0 con-algodón-negro 2 con-algodón-negra 0 nuestro-algodón 182, nuestra-algodón 0 ese-algodón 126 esa-algodón 0 algodón-barato 76 algodón-barata 4 (falda de algodón barata)

 * I have now incorporated all vacillant-gender issues into the article. Chameleon 13:26, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Move
Grammar of the Spanish language is redundant. Moving to Nohat 20:40, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Good. Chameleon 13:26, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Rewrite
Hang on everyone. I'm doing a massive rewrite of this entire article at the moment. Chameleon 21:26, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I've finished my edits for now. Chameleon 23:33, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I've added a to-do list for this article. Chameleon 13:26, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Barcelona hermoso
I'd never say Barcelona es hermoso. Proper nouns ending in -a are (always?) feminine. Except rivers like el Plata.

 * It seems counterintuitive, but I have been asked in Barcelona, Barcelona es bonito, ¿no? and this is confirmed by my grammar textbook (ISBN 0340583908). Chameleon 15:07, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * There is the popular saying Barcelona és bona si la bolsa sona. I know it's Catalan and not Spanish, but I think the rules don't differ in this case.
 * That's not Spanish, and there is also the issue of the rhyme: bó wouldn't go with sona. Chameleon 15:51, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I just remembered a counterexample. You say Nueva Granada, Nueva Zelanda, Pequeña Habana, China Roja, el África Negra (el is feminine here); and Nuevo León, Nuevo México, el Brasil. What I don't know is why Nueva York is feminine.
 * After reading againt the article, what I said is fairly redundant. Anyway I'd move down "everything masculine". I doubt it's the dominant usage.

 * As the article states, Nueva York is feminine because ciudad is feminine. This doesn't apply to México/Méjico, Brasil or León, which furthermore have typical masculine endings. Chameleon 15:50, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * To nitpick, León was a city and a kingdom.

 * Mexico is also a city, but I knew that and it is beside the point. Chameleon 16:27, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Spanish verbs
The verb section was getting very big, so I've moved it out to Spanish verbs. Chamaeleon 12:33, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Relative pronouns
We've just had a request on the talk page of the article relative pronoun for information on these pronouns in Spanish. If they are as complicated as was suggested, they would be very interesting for this comparative article. Anyone here up to doing it? (Perhaps do it briefly there and have a fuller version here?)--Doric Loon 19:00, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll write a full explanation here and you can put a summary at relative pronoun. Chamaeleon 19:25, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Update
I've changed a little the explanation on determining gender from endings, as I found that the explanation given there was somehow misleading. Words ending in o are allways masculine with only three exceptions (mano, nao and seo), of wich only mano is a commonly used word. I've written the section "Direct object le-les" but I feel its title should be change to "Use of le-les" or something like that. Finally I've also written the list of prepositions and a small text to go with it. Anconor.

Branching
OK, you might have noticed that I wrote most of this. For a long time, I've been intending to finish it, and I'm going to do so now. We have already farmed out several sections Spanish verbs, Spanish verb paradigm, etc and I think the time has come to create separate articles for every aspect of Spanish grammar. Don't worry, they won't be stubs. I am going to write a huge amount on each one. — Chameleon 21:45, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cleft sentences
There are a couple of things I can not assure are not right, but I believe they are not:
 * Fue a mí a quien me dio permiso. ) should be ( Fue a mí a quien le dio permiso.
 * Fue Juan el que perdió las llaves ) could also be ( Fue Juan quien perdió las llaves

 * Es para nosotros para los que se hizo esto.
 * I've never heard a structure like this, though it seams grammatically correct, though I would rather say
 * Es para nosotros para quien se hizo esto.
 * Es para nosotros que se hizo esto. (which I consider the preferable among all) is later said to be uneducated  and not advisable, a thought I don't share.

Grammar is so back behind in history that I might fall for normal missuse of the language. Can anyone check this out? --Mariano 07:15, 2005 Jun 8 (UTC)

title: Talk:Spanish grammar/Archive 1


text: User talk:84.68.195.125

title: User talk:84.68.195.125