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Talk:Anti-Protestantism

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2005 debate
For the June 2005 deletion debate on this article, see Votes for deletion/Anti-Protestantism.

Keep up the good work
For User:Lankiveil, good luck on keeping the catholics from reverting anti-catholicism to being an outrageous irrational psychosis, while anti-protestantism is "kept in its place" as a mere bias.

Votes are in to keep this page, but someone needs to clean it up.

I took a stab at it and removed the NPOV tag, chiefly because there was no explanation for the tag here on the talk page. If someone thinks the article is biased, they should explain here which way they think it is biased and what should be changed, at least in general terms.

 * It =is= biased because "someone" refuses to accept that anti-protestantism is just as evil as anti-catholicism, witnessed by the anti-catholicism page saying that's "irrational" and evil, while anti-protestantism is just a "bias" and is in no way equated to the "racism" and "anti-semitism" that anti-catholicism is equated to. This is soooo pro-Catholic POV that you have to be blind not to see it.

 * There is something of an explanation for that. When I still edited here I really did look for sites that were as paranoid to Protestants as people like Jack Chick or Fred Phelps are to Catholics. You may not believe that, but I remember putting all kinds of things like "Protestantism is a cult" or whatever in search engines in hopes of showing the irrational hatred some have for their faith/movement. I think I did find an Eastern Orthodox site saying it and a Belarussian news station which alleged Evangelicals sacrifice babies. I think I even put that in, but mostly I really just can't find stuff like that. This is all I got for "Protestantism is a cult." This is what I got for "Catholicism is a cult." See that didn't get many results either, but it still got 27 times as many hits as the phrase for Protestants. Now the explanation, I think, is that "Protestantism" is not a single religious denomination. Instead it's a collection of denominations associated to a religious movement. Hence Baptists are a cult gets almost one-sixth as many hits as "Catholicism is a cult" yet Baptists don't represent anywhere near one-sixth the population of Catholics. Anyway yeah I am Catholic and I have theological problems with Protestantism, but I think in the world today Protestants are far more religiously persecuted than Catholics. My Dad's side of the family are Baptist and Assembly of God. I removed AoG from some "list of purported cults" many times as they had no real source and it was just meanness I think. Sure I don't agree with Protestantism, but I'm horrified by the treatment they receive in many parts of the world and sometimes receive by Catholics like me. If you can find sources or movements that express irrational or paranoid hatred of Protestants I totally support adding them to the article. Who knows maybe I even helped you do so? I won't do any editing myself as I've given up on Wikipedia as terminally flawed. Still if you want to fix it go for it. In fact I'd prefer it open by saying Anti-Protestantism is "opposition or hatred" as simple "bias" is something I feel about Protestantism.(But not Protestants themselves, any bias I feel is purely theologic and not personal.)--T. Anthony 11:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Lankiveil has made the two equal, for now, but we'll see how long it takes for some rabid pro-RCC POV to make its way back into the sister article anti-catholicism.

 * I intend to keep an eye on both, but I invite anyone to help try and keep the two balanced if bias slips into either. As neither a Catholic or a Protestant, I think I can keep a relatively neutral view of things.  Unfortunately, it's a subject that some people can get very emotional about, and they lose sight of NPOV when that happens.  Lankiveil 12:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this article is currently almost still at the stub stage, as you could add entire sections on different times in history, different facets of the phenomenon, etc. Wesley 03:01, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

anti-evangelicalism?
So much of this article discusses anti-evangelicalism, or anti-fundamentalism, that the focus of the article doesn't seem to be "anti-protestantism" in general at all. I'm not sure if the article should be split up into two separate articles on 1)anti-fundamentalism/evangelicalism and 2)anti-mainline protestantism, or if the article simply should have more information on beliefs that are clearly anti-protestant in a general sense. -- Temtem 00:02, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

 * The section doesn't read very well, and from my US perspective seems to miss the point. In the US, some evangelicals fancy themselves persecuted because of laws or policies that prohibit religious displays or proselytizing on public property.  They also feel that official policies, say, of non-discrimiation against homosexuals violates their religious freedom by forcing them to treat people they consider to be notorious sinners equally.  Smerdis of Tlön 14:16, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I'd be quite happy to par down the section on anti-evangelicalism in this article and devote another article to the subject of how evangelicals are perceived by others. My own political views are not conservative (check out the trouble I had trying to include unfavorable but well-documented facts about Sarah Palin into her biopic, which is zealously guarded by Republicans), but it's pretty obvious that most hostility to evangelicalism comes from the liberal/progressive side of the political spectrum. In this article, I delineated a difference between evangelicals and fundamentalists because both parties define themselves differently and in opposition to each other. I'd be fine if someone added a separate "anti-fundamentalism" section, but I'd be resistant to lumping both groups together under one heading as "anti-evangelicalism/fundamentalism," unless the separate styles and identities of each group are very clearly stated in the article.--ManicBrit (talk) 18:29, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

cleanup
I've tried to do some cleanup to the page, but there a lot of bias and unsupported statements remain. --Temtem 00:20, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

divisions
In general Jehovah Witnesses, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Seventh-day Adventists, Baptists, Mormons, and a few fringe sects receive the most negative imagery.

 * Would Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, and Mormons even be considered "Protestant?" --Temtem 00:22, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

--Darkfred 11:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I can answer your question for 1 group at least, SDA are definately considered protestant, they are a pretty traditional schism group from methodists and as such trace their roots back to Martin Luther. If you consider Seventh Day Baptists to be a protestant group then you have to include SDA. The dietary guidelines, and every other difference which I know of is voluntary rather than law. They are based on biblical inerrancy like all of the traditional protestant beliefs. And are not incompatible with other protestant groups.
 * However, I believe with Jehovah's Witnesses there is an incompatible doctrine problem with the concept of Trinity and Jesus's Divinity. But I haven't done any research.

muslim world
''In the Muslim world hostility to Evangelical Christians is widespread and arguably the most violent. In several Islamist societies converting to Christianity is deemed apostasy and can have legal reprecussions. These can vary from censorship to death. Hence in 2004 Eritrea began a crackdown that saw the arrests of several Evangelicals. In other parts of the Islamic world, however, anti-Christian feelings are admittedly more generalized. Christianity in general is viewed unfavorably in Turkey and Pakistan according to a recent Pew Survey.''

 * How is this relevant to Anti-Protestantism, as opposed to anti-Christianity, at all? Is there any evidence that any muslim society would be harsher to a muslim converting to evangelicalism (or other branch of Protestantism) than it would be to a muslim converting to Catholicism or Orthodoxy? -- Temtem 00:06, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * T. Anthony: I tried to alter it some to make it more about Muslims versus Evangelicals. Although you have a good point in that it's often not clear that's what's happening. Interestingly I'm Catholic, but have written much of the version as it stands now. If anything in it offends feel free to say so.

 * Thanks for the clarification. -- Temtem 19:43, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

well
should we make mention of the relationship between Anti-Protestantism and Anti-freemasonry?

grazon 06:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

changes
I have removed some references that seem unsupportable and some that have no citations. this article seemed very pov to me, not accepting that protestantism is disliked by many for its effects on socioty and not "hated" in any way. i have changed the first sentence thus. I have also changes the part where evangelicals were "hated". citing from the anti-clericalism article, much opposition to religion is opposition to the hirearchicle socioty that it produces. anti-protestanism is mostly just a variant of this opposition. specifically, hirearchy is easier to build when your religion is easy to convert to like protestanism and especially evangelicalism. also see the revolutionary communist party's stance on "christian fascism" --67.161.93.159 06:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Citation please
"Some Catholics indicated Protestantism was heresy, a crime similar to religious treason, and that without repentance the punishment for Protestantism should be death." This reads pretty POV to me. This seems to make claims regarding Catholics w/o support (the punishment=death part).

removal of section
I have removed the pre-history section because it conveys and anti-catholic tone and mostly because it doesnt relate to modern protestantism. the idea that anyone who dissented from the catholic church was a protestant no matter what their beleif is fronted by people in the anti-catholic movement. christianity, similarly, cannot be discribed as a protestantism of judaism to be jumped toghether with all other splits from that religion. --67.161.93.159 06:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

pro-evangelical POV
On May 4, User:24.2.52.199 has made some statements that are basically evangelical POV. While I welcome this user's perspective, some of the claims are quite clearly not suitable. For instance:

 * "Evangelicals are one of America's most persecuted religious groups.", pure POV, that is not sourced or documented in any way.
 * "This view is shared by many non-evangelicals, like Catholics, Jews, Hindus, and some liberal Protestants(Epicopaneans e.g.)", not only poorly spelled, but possibly a veiled POV attack.
 * "there is no other Christian group more devoted to spreading the Gospel", this is what many evangelical Christians may perceive about themselves, but again, it's an unsourced (and unsourcable) piece of POV.

You can see for yourself here what was changed. Based on the above, I am going to wind back some of this user's changes to this article.

Lankiveil 11:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Irish sectarianism
Re the latest changes, a few pieces of clarification are needed here. The penal laws were first passed in 1609, first Jacobites did not appear until 1689. The xenophobia here refers to the Catholic rebels and was not perceived, it was unfortunately very real. James II did not institute "extreme discrimination" against anyone. What uthe penal laws first passed in 1609, first Jacobites appear in 1689. Thexenophobia here refers to the Catholic rebels. James II did not upset the whigs, covenanters etc was that he repealed the anti-catholic legislation and opened the military and public office to them. As part of this package of religious toleration, James was also prepared to offer toleration to the radical Presbyterians in Scotland, albeit after brutally repressing their armed rebellion - the Killing Time. What is says on the walls of Derry, that James was an, "arbritrary and bigotted monarch", does not stand up to the facts I'm afraid.

Jdorney 13:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Npov
In several countries with a majority of the population identifying themselves as Catholic, there is a hostility to Protestantism as a whole

CITE

In more modern times, Catholic-Protestant relations have grown calmer. Nevertheless, in general the further a Protestant sect is from Catholicism in its doctrine, the more discomfort among many Catholic people arises. Anglicans and Lutherans are only sporadically viewed in a negative light in modern Catholic countries. However, a Zogby poll of American Catholics showed Catholics having a more hostile attitude toward Fundamentalist Christians than to any non-Christian religion

CITE This mixture of xenophobia and religious intolerance led to widespread massacres of Protestant settlers in the Irish Rebellion of 1641.

Never knew that xenophobia means confiscation of land (and so on) C I T E

Superdude99 14:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

 * There's a thing on Pew about Protestant/Catholic relations in Latin America. Exempting Northern Ireland this is the only place I've found with violence between the two groups and it's certainly less than the violence a century ago. Added to that people in the US have less problems voting for a Catholic then they did in the past according to Gallup. I can't get at the Gallup deal because you have to be registered to get their older polls. Cite for yourself though as I told you where to look.--T. Anthony 02:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)(moved by--T. Anthony 04:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC))

Please don't reply in the middle of my comment(s) ok? Also, I shouldn't be looking for these claims since you made them (or claim them to be real).

"Anglicans and Lutherans are only sporadically viewed in a negative light in modern Catholic countries"

Where do people come up with this? Does this include France, Austria and The republic of Ireland??? Superdude99 20:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I understand skepticism, but really? The polls on Americans being more willing to elect a Catholic than in the past are on several sites. As this concerns Catholic hostility to Protestants more the Second Vatican Council has done a great deal to reduce that and several Protestants attended it. That relations are better with Lutherans and Anglicans can be shown by the fact documents and organizations on that are more common. There is the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification and the Anglican Roman Catholic International Commission. However American Catholics having a hostile view of "Fundamentalists" is supported by Zogby 2001. The poll did not ask views of Lutherans and Anglicans, but do you think it'd have been as negative. As for France or Ireland I didn't having polling data on them when I still edited here.--T. Anthony 10:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Sloppiness
I have reworded a number of sentences in the Hostility to Evangelicals section to give them some form of understandible meaning. I still have never heard of any evidence to prove that "In the Muslim world hostility to Evangelical Christians is ... arguably the most violent" and I would suggest that that be removed if nothing is cited. Overall, it seems like a pretty big claim and I would rather see it removed than justified in an unclear way.

As for the next section, Im not sure what "The most disliked protestant groups may include: Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Seventh-day Adventists, Churches of Christ, Baptists and a few fringe sects" has to do with catholic and protestant disagreement. What was there before makes even less sense: "The most common objects of hostility among non-Protestants in general might be Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Seventh-day Adventists, Churches of Christ, Baptists and a few fringe sects"

Either way, much of this article is poorly worded and/or irrelevent and should thus be clensed.

It should be noted that I deleted the anti-protestanism in britain section because the persecution of catholics there seems                to be the only evidence of their bias against protestants. Although I recognize that this is a common trend in this article, this section went ridiculously too far. Information like that should go in an article concerning anti-catholicism if anywhere, and this article should be discussing the opposite of that. --Musaabdulrashid 09:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Not sure about all of it but the "Center for Religious Freedom" and a few other sources indicate Evangelicals face the most violence in Islamic countries. A recent poll showed people less likely to vote for someone described as "An Evangelical Christian" than for any other Christian group except Mormons. I think the poll was from a Los Angeles paper.--T. Anthony 06:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Clean Up this Act, Please!!!
This article is a horrible mess! That's a crying shame because it is an important and interesting topic, and yet the points of merit in the article are sandwiched in between POV bleating and scarcely-hidden doctrinal posturing! Cite more REAL instances of religious discrimination, persecution or ridicule or whatever, preferably from historicial and politically or socially relevant contexts ... but stop blathering over and over that people hate Evangelicals because they "take the Bible literally". That is a blantant doctrinal statement, and it just makes you look like a silly meme-machine. For instance the Zogby poll cited has NOTHING to do with Catholics distrusting Evangelicals because they believe the Bible, but everything to do with political afficilations and agenda, etc. Please, get real, and make this article less embarassing to read!!! Be specific, not knee-jerking!Eschew obfuscation 21:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Is there such a thing as 'Anti-Protestantism' outside of the Wikipedia?
The phrase and concept 'anti-protestantism' seems to me mainly to refer to the inter-wikipedia dispute (or 'balancing act') with the proponents of the 'anti-catholicism' article. In the context of the UK most 'anti-protestantism' was between one protestant sect and another (this is how the USA started...). Historically there was a three cornered fight between Anglicans, Nonconformists and Catholics with the two latter having penal laws imposed on them by the former. Where 'anti-protestantism' comes into this is anyones guess... The most trenchant criticisms and satires on the (protestant) Nonconformists have come from the established (protestant) church (and vice-versa). The animosity between (protestant) church and (protestant) chapel was very bitter indeed till very recent times. IMHO 'Anti-Nonconformist' or 'Anti-Evangelical' or 'Anti-Fundamentalist' or 'Anti-Establishmentarian' have much more conceptual validity than 'Anti-Protestant'. 'Anti-Protestantism' might make more sense if it referred to doctrinal or theological disputes between Protestants and Catholics, but that doesn't seem to be the main sense of this article - which seems to have constructed its putative subject itself and is thus staking a claim to 'originality'.....Colin4C 16:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * My main beef with this article is the glaring omissions. The article only mentions the English persecution of Protestants under Bloody Mary in passing, and the persecution of the Huguenots isn't mentioned at all.  What about the Protestant rebellions in Spanish-controlled Holland?  What about the martyrdom of Archbishop Thomas Cranmer or Jan Huss?  How about Foxe's Book of Martyrs?  Although it was sensationalistic, to say the least, it also bears mentioning as the most well known book on the persecution of Protestants. Zach82 03:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I guess that those actions were anti-Protestant. The only trouble is that most of them have come to our attention and have been exaggerated through the writings of anti-Catholics involved in a propaganda war...Difficult to know how to approach this subject from the right angle...
 * What MIGHT be relevent was SOME samizdat anti-Protestant propaganda produced by under-cover Jesuits under Elizabeth 1: such stuff as 'Leicester's Commonweath' used to rubbish Eliza's chief minister, alleging that the Protestant establishment were really crypto-Machiavellian atheists....
 * What was the nature of the anti-Protestant propaganda produced in Catholic Spain etc? (I vainly wonder.....).Colin4C 11:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's rather easy to know what happened to Protestants in Catholic countries. The Huguenots were persecuted in France, and I saw the church they built in exile in Berlin when I went there on holiday.  We do know Archbishop Thomas Cranmer was burned at the stake for Protestantism after he had recanted his Protestant beliefs.  According to legend, when the pyre was lit he thrust his right hand down into the flames so the hand that signed the recantation would burn first.  We don't have to resort to Foxe's Book of Martyrs to find examples of anti-Protestantism. Zach82 14:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, and I've just remembered a little thing called the Counter Reformation...This was the ideological and institutional basis of the anti-Protestant drive. And the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes, I guess merits a mention. So basically the whole article needs to be re-written....Colin4C 17:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Protestantism in Ireland
I am somewhat puzzled by the this lengthy section of the article. It seems to be looking at the situation in Ireland through the wrong end of the telescope. Much of the anti-Protestantism it details is merely an observation that the Catholics did not enjoy being under the heel of the Protestant Ascendency and reacted against it. It would make more sense to have it in the Anti-Catholicism article. Following a similar logic persecution of the blacks in the Southern States of the USA could be twisted round to 'shocking anti-White sentiments of blacks in Alabama when confronted with a lynch mob' or the persecution of Christians by the Romans to 'terrible anti-pagan feelings of Christians about to be eaten by lions'. Colin4C 13:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

 * You seem to be looking at this through the wrong end of a telescope yourself.. perhaps binoculars would be better for you! :) To explain, there is definately anti-Protestantism in Ireland, and there has been such a feeling here since the Reformation basically. --Mal 18:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, yes, in the sense that the Jews and the Moslems had mixed feelings about Torquemada and the Pope back in Olde Sunny Spaine in Ye Oldeden Dayes. However I do grant you that since the time of Eamon de Valera ("don't listen to him!" - my Irish friends say.....) the Protestants have faced discrimination in the Republic of Ireland. But this is hardly the greatest hardship that Protestants have faced (not as bad as the Netherlands under King Philip for instance). Colin4C 22:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Protestants in Ireland have faced discrimination too. Also, Protestants in Ireland (and in Britain) have faced discrimination from the likes of William III & Mary, James II and others at various times since the Refomation.. not to mention from specific groups. Whether or not this anti-Protestant sentiment was worse than or not as bad as in other countries is neither here nor there. --Mal 03:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Protestants facing discrimination from King Billy! Don't tell that to Ian Paisley or the Orange Order...But, yes, confusingly for this article, there was a three corner fight in old Ireland (and England) between Anglicans, Presbyterians and Catholics. Is there a wikipedia article for Anglican Protestants vs Presbyterian Protestants I wonder?....not to mention Scottish Presbyterians versus Cromwellian Nonconformists which resulted in several major battles on English and Scottish soil during the Civil War...Colin4C 03:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Protestant POV appearing from an AOL IP address
There has been a couple of uncited, dreadfully POV comments appearing in the article from an AOL address recently. I haven't complained to the IP Talk page, because, well, it's an AOL address, but I'd ask editors to please keep an eye on this article and revert any grossly anti-Catholic edits that are made. Lankiveil 00:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Link Section
Someone keeps adding links to anti-protestant websites in this article. At first I was just removing them, but now that I think about it a bit more, I have to wonder how useful most of the links there actually are. This is the article about "Anti-Protestantism", not a page where we discuss why Protestantism is wrong. Yet, most of the links are either justifications for, or criticisms of, Protestantism. This doesn't make sense to me - surely any links provided should be on the actual topic of anti-Protestantism, not Protestantism itself.

As such, I'm going to do some fairly serious culling of the links section in the next couple of days, unless someone raises objections. Lankiveil 00:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Hostility to Calvinistic Christians or Protestants who believe that they have eternal life
I concur with Greatgavini's tagging the new section as non-noteable. It's also original research. Majoreditor 18:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Hostility to Calvinistic Christians or Protestants who believe that they have eternal life 2
And that you concur means it is not noteable? Since when does concurring with someone else make something not notewothy? If the moderators of yahoo and find it noteworthy enough to filter questions coming from Kyle and blocking him from asking new questions after bringing up a few verses that imply Calvinism is correct, how is that not noteworthy? Is Yahoo! a small company? As for "orginal research" whatever the hell that means, how about you do some research period and do not delete research willy nilly because it doesn't fit with your personal opinion? You do know what research means right? And if the references show there is a strong bias against calvinism on yahoo answers, how is that not noteworthy? Again, is Yahoo! a little insignificant company? Yahoo! Answers has a whole page to itself on wikipedia, is that because it's not a noteworthy site?

Like Yahoo! Answers hypocritically says naysayers, cite your sources.

 * The section in question doesn't cite reliable sources and is clearly original research. We don't do that here at Wikipedia. Please see WP:OR for details. If you can't cite reliable secondary or tertiary sources then the material is subject to removal from the article. Thanks. Majoreditor 04:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

 * "Notable" would mean that multiple, non-trivial treatments in reliable sources such as the New York Times, Wired Magazine, etc. Even with reliable sources, however, it is not clear that this topic would be encyclopedic.  Refer to WP:NOT.  Single examples of anti-Protestantism are not appropriate within the scope of this article.  If they were, this article would blow up to an unmanageable and unreadable size.
 * --Richard 05:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Protestant decline in the Republic of Ireland
I have deleted this entire subsection because the decline in the number of Protestants is not, in itself, evidence of anti-Protestantism. Obviously, many Protestants left because they felt they would fare better in a Protestant country than a Catholic one, or at least in a country that was more congenial to Protestants. However, if we wish to make this case, we need to support it with facts that make the case directly rather than just pointing to the decline in the number of Protestants.

Suppose someone were to argue that the decline is due to a difference in birthrates, or a large number of conversions of Protestants to Catholicism or a higher rate of Protestants leaving the church to become atheists. Obviously, none of these hypotheses is the likely cause of the dramatic decline in the number of Protestants. BUT WE HAVE TO PROVE OUR CASE. It is not sufficient to wave our hands with high-level statistics about the number of Protestants. We need to find a reliable source who has actually done research on the causes of the decline in the number of Protestants and then present the results of that research.

--Richard (talk) 02:14, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Agree, the first president of Ireland was protestant, as was one of his successors. The church law on bringing children up as RCs was instigated in Rome, and not in Ireland as the article somehow suggested. There are many reasons for changes. purple (talk) 11:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Courts did, however, enforce the ne temere decree. Mooretwin (talk) 23:27, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No thy did not. Get a grip. RashersTierney (talk) 23:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes they did.

''The use of the decree to extract commitments in mixed marriages led to enforcement in Republic of Ireland courts such as the Tilson v. Tilson judgement where Judge Gavan Duffy said "In my opinion, an order of the court designed to secure the fulfilment of an agreement peremptorily required before a mixed marriage by the Church, whose special position in Ireland is officially recognised as the guardian of the faith of the Catholic spouse, cannot be withheld on any ground of public policy by the very State which pays homage to that Church." Irish Law Times Report LXXXVI 1952, pages 49-73 '' Mooretwin (talk) 23:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Tilson v. Tilson was judged on a pre-nuptial agreement between the parents re education of children. On appeal to Supreme Court it was so held. It had nothing whatever to do with the courts interpreting Ne Temere. RashersTierney (talk) 00:30, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

 * So... find a reliable source that says that significant numbers of Protestants left the Republic of Ireland because of the "ne temere" decree or the "Tilson v. Tilson" case. If possible, avoid "hand-waving" articles that claim significant numbers left without statistics to back it up.  The best source would be some sort of survey asking those who left the reasons for their emigration. --Richard (talk) 03:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

 * A clear case of 'Causal Reductionism'. "Reliable source" is the benchmark.purple (talk) 11:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

pov reversions
A phrase is trying to portray one side of the issue, which may (or may not! :) read "In the United States, critics of the policies adopted by the Religious Right, such as support of traditional one-man one-woman marriage and support of Right to Life for the unborn, often equate evangelicalism as a movement with the Religious Right."

The underlying theme is correct. Conservatives do support these rights for the unborn and support traditional marriage. We need to find and maintain language that is not pov. Since the phrase is trying to slight (label) conservatives/evangelicals, it could be considered "balance" to use their terms for their positions.

While, "inefficient", another way is to use both terms in two separate statements characterizing both positions. This may be best in the long run. Abortion seems to have gone that way, for example.Student7 (talk) 20:25, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * We DO have NPOV language: they oppose same-sex marriage. No one cares about their "support of one-man one-woman marriage", the issue is their opposition to same-sex marriage. Saying otherwise is POV when characterizing their opponents. And it's not just their anti-abortion stance at issue, it's the opposition to comprehensive sexual education, support of anti-sodomy legislation, opposition to no-fault divorce laws, access to birth control, etc. If you want to spell these out, that's fine, but replacing "reproductive freedom" with "support of Right to Life for the unborn" is not just POV, it's wrong. Glaucus (talk) 20:41, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

This article needs sources!
I deleted an entire paragraph tonight because it had a request for sourcing that is SEVEN YEARS OLD! People are adding to a paragraph without providing any sources. If there is major disagreements between majority Catholic countries and Protestants then name them and the sources should be easy to find. I don't know of any modern country, other than Ireland, where there is tangible anti-Protestantism. Is it a serious problem in France or Italy? Then provide some sourcing. A scholar, some violence acts against protestants, laws discriminating against them, etc.  Alatari (talk) 04:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Hostility to evangelicals
This section is unsourced and is not anti-Protestantism per se but opposition to some protestant sects and charismatic catholicism, often by people who are protestants themselves. Unless a source is provided that it is a type of anti-protestantism, I will remove it. TFD (talk) 21:23, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

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Anti-Protestant Sentiment from the Russian Orthodox Church?
I have been reading some books on Russian history, and there are some statements from these books that support the idea that anti-Protestant sentiment was articulated by some leading members of the Russian Orthodox Church.

For example, the book ''The Political Thought of Yu. F. Samarin, 1840-1864'' by Loren David Calder (Routledge, 2019), is about the Slavophile Yu. F. Samarin. And there is this passage in it:

" In this time of testing the real champions of Russia's Orthodox Church were Stefan Yavorsky and Feofan Prokopovich. Both men were devout Orthodox churchmen. They best understood the issues and arguments. Yavorsky understood and articulated the anti-Protestant principle in Orthodoxy and Prokopovich the anti-Catholic one – defending the Orthodox Church from both sides they assured her triumph and were the real heroes of the contest."

https://books.google.ie/books?id=Ofe-DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT99&dq=Prokopovich+anti-protestant&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9-Kad5PfoAhWjo3EKHfPWCW8Q6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=%20anti-protestant&f=false

And the book The Cambridge History of Russian Literature, edited by Charles Moser ( Cambridge University Press, 1992), has this passage:

"To his contemporaries, Stefan Yavorsky was known first and foremost as the author of the anti-Protestant treatises Vineyard of Christ (Vinograd Khristov, 1698) and Rock of Faith (Kamen very, 1718)."

https://books.google.ie/books?id=6FQ7ALNZXdUC&pg=PA40&dq=%22To+his+contemporaries,+Stefan+Yavorsky+was+known+first+and+foremost+as+the+author%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifz7Gc6PfoAhWnTxUIHefWDRUQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=%22To%20his%20contemporaries%2C%20Stefan%20Yavorsky%20was%20known%20first%20and%20foremost%20as%20the%20author%22&f=false

This book, Under Caesar's Sword: How Christians Respond to Persecution (edited by Daniel Philpott & Timothy Samuel Shah, Cambridge University Press, 2018 ) also provides some evidence for anti-Protestant views held by some modern-day Russian Orthodox clergy:

"Orthodox leaders are often virulently anti-Protestant as well, describing Protestants as “totalitarian sects” that use “hypnosis, subliminal encoding, mind-altering drugs, and other satanic techniques" to induce people to convert. One priest pointed to an Orthodox publication that asserted Protestants have a deceptive character, meant to lure potential converts by false talk of Christian love."

https://books.google.ie/books?id=uHRJDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA196&dq=%22one+priest+pointed+to+an+orthodox+publication%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVxp2P6PfoAhWRonEKHfjSDaEQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=%22one%20priest%20pointed%20to%20an%20orthodox%20publication%22&f=false

In light of this, I suggest a section covering anti-Protestant activity from Russian Orthodox clergy could be added to this article. 188.141.25.160 (talk) 20:17, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

History
The History section is a bit of a word salad at the moment:

 * It seems to think that the Spanish Inquisition applied in the HRE, whereas they were different crowns. The Dutch Inquisition was not the Spanish Inquisition, etc.; in any case, the Inquisition was not an organization but a procedure with effectively autonomous staff in each city/diocese.

 * It looks like it is cut and pasted willy nilly, so that a word like "crusade" is used without its meaning being clear: it seems to say that the Spanish Inquisition was a crusade, which is unjustifiable if we are being precise about terminology, and non-encyclopedic language if we take it as an analogy.

 * It uses the giveaway keywords like "popes" and "princes": "church" and "state" are more NPOV and less inflammatory.

 * It is repetitive, circling around a few generalizations that, I think, can be said better simpler.

The "anti-Protestantism" page should IMHO be about prosecution/persecution/pogroms not intellectual opposition or nonviolent ethnic bigotry, and needs to be very careful with NPOV. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 22:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

 * ✅ I have edited the worst paras of the History section, so I think it is now more NPOV as far as it goes: I have tried not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But still, the whole article has a structural fail that the body fails to deal with the subject advertised in the opening sentences of the lead, which is so broad it could/should include 9-year-old Catholic schoolkids throwing rocks at kids from the neighbouring Protestant school: I have adjusted the lead somewhat to have more of a political/institutional/military focus, but still the article is unfocussed. If there had been relevant citations, it might have warranted keeping.

Penal laws and "enslavement"
Anyone want to explain exactly what this means and why it's not sourced (section on Ireland):

"The Penal Laws had a lasting effect on the population, due to their severity (celebrating Catholicism in any form was punishable by death or enslavement under the laws)"

Enslavement? Never mind "death"? Where's the RS for this text? Jonathan f1 (talk) 21:40, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

The Devil with a Bagpipe
At the beginning of the article there was an image of the Painting The Devil with a Bagpipe by Erhard Schön, according to the description, the painting was an anti-Protestant piece representing Martin Luther. However, the work is an anti-Catholic piece. The author's name was also mispelled. Atanásio (talk) 05:45, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Anti-Protestantism


text:
Curtis Cregan

Curtis John Cregan (born January 18, 1977) is an American actor, singer, and dancer. Cregan appeared in the American version of the Australian children's television show Hi-5.

Early life
Cregan was born in Vintage, Pennsylvania and raised in Okemos, Michigan, where he attended Okemos High School. He studied with choral director Frank K. DeWald. He attended the University of Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music.

Career
Cregan's first performing job was as an emcee for the Nickelodeon show at Kings Island. After college, he made his Broadway debut in Rent. From there, he went on to play such roles as Doody from Grease, Dickon from The Secret Garden and one of the Von Trapp Family from The Sound of Music.

In 2003, Cregan joined the American version of the Australian children's television show Hi-5. His role is similar to that of Tim Harding, Tim Maddren and Joe Kalou's in the original Australian version. In the series, Cregan's segment is "Making Music", where he explains the fundamentals of music and making musical instruments from everyday objects. Cregan also provides the voice of Kimee Balmilero's mischief-making friend Jup-Jup. Cregan first appeared in 2013's The Lone Ranger.

Curtis married Broadway actress Jenn Gambatese on June 30, 2007.

They have two daughters, Josephine (born in 2009) and Charlie (born in 2017).

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Curtis Cregan


text:
Toyotama-hime

Toyotama-hime (豊玉姫) is a goddess in Japanese mythology who appears in Kojiki and Nihon Shoki. She is the daughter of the sea deity, Watatsumi, and the wife of Hoori. She is known as the paternal grandmother of Emperor Jimmu, the first emperor of Japan.

Toyotama marries the prince Hoori, but returns to the sea when he breaks the vow not to spy on her while she goes through childbirth. The child she gave birth to was Ugayafukiaezu.

Name
Toyotama-hime's name is believed to mean "a miko (shrine maiden) who makes rich pearls attract divine spirits," in which toyo (豊) stands for "rich" and tama (玉) stands for "pearl".

Myth
The account of Toyatama-hime and Hoori appear in the Kojiki  and the Nihon Shoki.

Toyotama-hime was the daughter of the sea deity Watatsumi. The palace where they reside is said to be as if made from fish scales and supposedly lies undersea.

She makes a fateful meeting with the hunter prince, Yamasachi, also known as Hoori ("Fire-Subside"). The prince came in search of the fishing hook he lost at sea, borrowed from his elder brother Umisachi ("Luck of the Sea").

When the princess came to draw water from the well, the prince was already waiting, having climbed a katsura tree (or cassia tree ) that towered above the well. The prince asked for a drink of water and made a gesture of spitting jewels into the vessel. The princess was captivated by his beauty. Her sea deity father recognized him as the descendant of the heavenly gods and arranged a banquet. Toyotama married the prince, and they lived in the place for three years.

At the end of three years, Toyotama's husband let out a sigh and revealed his unfinished quest for the lost fish hook, which needed to be returned to his brother. After the hook was found caught in the sea bream's (tai fish's) throat, Toyotama's husband was set upon a one-fathom long crocodile (or shark) to return home and, with the advice from the seagod, subjugated his elder brother.

Toyotama, who had accompanied her husband to the land above sea, announced her pregnancy. The prince built for her a child-delivery hut (parturition house) thatched with cormorant feathers, which was not completely thatched when she went into labour. Toyotama requested Hoori not watch while she gave birth to their child. Toyotama then gave birth to a son, who was named Ugayafukiaezu ("Cormarant-Thatch-Meeting-Incompletely" ) or "Heavenly Male Brave of the Shore".

Unfortunately, Hoori's curiosity got the better of him and he attempted to spy on his wife. To his surprise, rather than seeing his wife as he knew her, he witnessed an enormous wani (crocodile, or in ancient usage also meant shark) cradling his child (one Nihongi version claim she was a dragon, Tatsu). This creature was none other than his beloved Toyotama who had shape-shifted to give birth. After catching her husband spying on her, she was utterly ashamed that he broke his promise. Unable to forgive Hoori, she abandoned him and their child by returning to the sea. Following her departure, she sent her younger sister Tamayori ("Jewel-Good") to help raise the child in her absence. As Ugayafukiaezu grew of age, he married his aunt and eventually conceived a child, Jimmu, who became the first Emperor of Japan.

Parallels
Some commentators have noted a parallel between Toyotama-hime and the princess Oto-hime in the tale of Urashima Tarō, the boy who saves a turtle. Toyotama rode a sea turtle to return from the sea to give birth, according to the Nihon Shoki.

The transformation of Toyotama into a crocodile form draws parallels with the Melusine legend of continental Europe and selkie legends of Scotland and Scandinavia.

Japanese scholar Hiroko Ikeda, in her index of Japanese folktales based on the international Aarne-Thompson Index, indexed the myth as type 470C, "The Lost Fish Hook (Umisachi Yamasuchi)": one of two brothers (one a fisherman, the other a hunter) loses the fisherman's hook and, on his quest, meets and marries the daughter of a marine Dragon King; later, he regains the fish hook and is given a jewel to control the tides; at the end of the tale, the hunter's wife asks him not to see her while she is giving birth, but he breaks the taboo and finds a crocodile (wani) in her place. According to Ikeda, the tale has circum-Pacific distribution, that is, similar tales are found among ethnic groups that inhabit the Pacific Ocean shores.

Popular culture

 * Throughout Japanese media, human-dragon hybrids (former on their mother's side as the case with Toyotama) are commonplace, notably in video games such as Popolocrois, Fire Emblem and Breath of Fire.
 * In the Japanese anime Sekirei, there is a Sekirei named Toyotama that fights using a traditional wooden staff.
 * Samantha Shannon’s novel, “The Priory of the Orange Tree”, is loosely based on this legend.

Science
The extinct crocodile genus Toyotamaphimeia was named after this deity, in direct reference to this myth.

title: Toyotama-hime


text:
User talk:Alex.atkins

Welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for your contributions to the coolest online encyclopedia I know of =). I sure hope you stick around; we're always in need of more people to create new articles and improve the ones we already have.  You'll probably find it easiest to start with a tutorial of how the wikipedia works, and you can test stuff for yourself in the sandbox.  When you're contributing, you'll probably find the manual of style to be helpful, and you'll also want to remember a couple important guidelines.  First, write from a neutral point of view, second, be bold in editing pages, and third, use wikiquette.  Those are probably the most important ones, and you can take a look at some others at the policies and guidelines page. You might also be interested in how to write a great article and possibly adding some images to your articles.

Be sure to get involved in the community – you can contact me at my talk page if you have any questions, and you can check out the village pump, where lots of wikipedians hang out and discuss things. If you're looking for something to do, check out the community portal. And whenever you ask a question or post something on a talk page, be sure to sign your name by typing ~~~~.

Again, welcome! It's great to have you. Happy editing! --Spangineer (háblame)  13:57, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Alex.atkins


text:
Rumors Are Flying

"Rumors Are Flying" is a 1946 popular song popularized by Frankie Carle and Les Paul and The Andrews Sisters.

Background
The song was written by Bennie Benjamin and George David Weiss and published in 1946. It was popularized in 1946 by Frankie Carle (vocal by Marjorie Hughes) and by The Andrews Sisters with Les Paul. The Frankie Carle version was a number-one hit in 1946 in America for nine weeks from late October that year.

Other recordings
Other charted versions in 1946 were by Betty Jane Rhodes; Billy Butterfield; The Three Suns; Tony Martin; and by Harry Cool and his Orchestra (vocal by Mindy Carson) (who recorded the song for Signature Records, catalog #15043.)

title: Rumors Are Flying


text:
Pagurapseudidae

Pagurapseudidae is a family of crustaceans in the order Tanaidacea. Like hermit crabs, they inhabit empty gastropod shells, but can be told apart from hermit crabs by the lack of a carapace, revealing the segmentation of the thorax, and by the greater number of legs: hermit crabs have five pairs of legs, of which the first has large claws, and the last is highly reduced, while in Pagurapseudidae, there is one pair of claws, plus six further walking legs.

The family Pagurapseudidae contains the following subfamilies and genera:
 * Hodometricinae Gutu, 1981
 * Hodometrica Miller, 1940
 * Indoapseudes Bacescu, 1976
 * Parapagurapseudopsis Brum, 1973
 * Similipedia Gutu, 1989

 * Pagurapseudinae Lang, 1970
 * Macrolabrum Bacescu, 1976
 * Pagurapseudes Whitelegge, 1901
 * Pagurotanais Bouvier, 1918

title: Pagurapseudidae


text:
MHPArena

MHPArena is a stadium located in Stuttgart, Baden-Württemberg, Germany, and home to Bundesliga club VfB Stuttgart. It hosted football matches in the 1974 FIFA World Cup, the UEFA Euro 1988, the 2006 FIFA World Cup, and the UEFA Euro 2024. Besides that the 1959 European Cup Final, the replay of the 1962 European Cup Winners' Cup final, the 1988 European Cup Final, and the second leg of the 1989 UEFA Cup final took place in the stadium. The stadium is the only venue in Europe to have hosted multiple World Cup, European Championship and European Cup/Champions League Final matches. The stadium hosted the 1986 European Athletics Championships and the 1993 World Athletics Championships before it was redeveloped into a football-specific stadium in 2009.

Before 1993 it was called the Neckarstadion, named after the nearby river Neckar. Between 1993 and July 2008 it was called the Gottlieb-Daimler-Stadion. The stadium was renamed the Mercedes-Benz Arena at the beginning of the 2008–09 season, starting with a pre-season friendly against Arsenal on 30 July 2008. On 1 July 2023, the stadium was renamed the MHPArena.

Location
The MHPArena is located in the Bad Cannstatt borough of Stuttgart and is the centrepiece of the Neckarpark area. Directly on the north side of the stadium is the Carl Benz Center, an elongated experience centre for football fans. The Porsche-Arena and the Hanns-Martin-Schleyer-Halle follow immediately afterwards. To the south-east of the stadium are the VfB Stuttgart club grounds with training grounds, clubhouse and the Robert-Schlienz-Stadion, where the VfB Stuttgart youth teams play their matches. About 250 metres to the west of the stadium is the Cannstatter Wasen, where the annual Cannstatter Volksfest takes place.

History
The stadium was originally built from 1929 to 1933 with the name "Stuttgarter Kampfbahn" after designs by German architects Paul Bonatz and Friedrich Scholer. After it was built, it was named "Adolf-Hitler-Kampfbahn". From 1945 to 1949 it was called Century Stadium and later Kampfbahn and was used by US Troops to play baseball. The name Neckarstadion has been used since 1949. It is home to VfB Stuttgart in the Bundesliga (and to the Stuttgarter Kickers when they played in the Bundesliga).

After a major refurbishment in the late 1980s and early 1990s partly financed by Daimler-Benz, the Stuttgart town council dedicated the stadium to Gottlieb Daimler. The inventor had tested both the first internal combustion motorcycle and the first 4-wheel automobile there in the 1880s, on the road from Cannstatt to Untertürkheim (now called Mercedesstraße). The Mercedes-Benz Group headquarters, the Mercedes-Benz Museum, and the Untertürkheim car plant are nearby.

The stadium capacity was temporarily reduced to around 42,300, after one stand (Untertürkheimer Kurve) was demolished during summer 2009 in the process of converting it to a pure football arena. The rebuilt arena was completed in November 2011 with a new capacity of 60,449, including terracing. Due to UEFA regulations, which only allow seating, the capacity was reduced to around 55,000 during international football matches.

As a result of the renovation work on the main stand, the capacity of the stadium was temporarily reduced to 47,500 seats in the 2022–23 season. Since construction work was completed in March 2024, the capacity is 60,058 for league matches and 54,812 for international matches.

It is divided into four sections,
 * the Haupttribüne (main stand), adjacent to Mercedesstraße, housing VIP-lounges and press seats
 * the Gegentribüne (opposite stand), formerly named EnBW-Tribüne and Kärcher-Tribüne after some of VfB Stuttgart's sponsors.
 * the Cannstatter Kurve (Cannstatt Curve), to the left of the Haupttribüne, housing the ultras of VfB Stuttgart and one of two video walls. Before rebuilding it housed the A-Block, which was the original block of the ultras. Since 2011 the lower tier of the curve contains a standing area with 8,000 terraces.
 * the Untertürkheimer Kurve (Untertürkheim Curve), to the right of the Haupttribüne, housing lounges, the blocks for the guest team's fans and the second video wall

The fabric roof construction of the MHPArena was designed by Schlaich Bergermann Partner. Made of precision-tailored membranes of PVC-coated polyester, the roof tissue is durable enough to withstand 1,000 kg of weight per square decimeter. It is suspended from an aesthetic steel frame that runs around the entire stadium weighing approximately 2,700 metric tons. The steel cables connecting the roof to the frame alone weigh about 420 tons. The roof was added during the refurbishment preceding the 1993 World Athletics Championships.

International matches
The Neckarstadion hosted four matches of the 1974 FIFA World Cup, two matches of the 1988 UEFA European Football Championship (a 1st Round match and a semi-final) and six games of the 2006 FIFA World Cup, including a Round of 16 game and the third-place playoff match (see below for details).

The stadium also hosted the finals of the European Cup (now known as UEFA Champions League) in 1959 (Real Madrid vs. Stade de Reims) and 1988 (PSV Eindhoven vs. S.L. Benfica).

Trivia

 * Germany's first international football match after World War II in 1950 (against Switzerland) was played at the stadium. The official match attendance of 96,400 is the stadium record. Journalists estimated that more than 100,000 people attended the match. The first match with players from West and East Germany after the German reunification in 1990 (also versus Switzerland) took place at the Neckarstadion as well.
 * Klaus Fischer scored Germany's "ARD Goal of the Century" here against the Swiss in 1977, with a bicycle kick ("Fallrückzieher").
 * With 115 m2 each, the stadium's two video walls before rebuilding were the largest in Europe.
 * The Gottlieb-Daimler-Stadion was one of the four stadiums hosting games during the 2006 FIFA World Cup whose name were not changed to FIFA World Cup Stadium XYZ, as the dedication to Gottlieb Daimler was not interpreted as advertisement (i.e. for DaimlerChrysler). All others, such as the Allianz Arena in Munich or the AOL Arena in Hamburg were obliged to remove all visual references to their stadiums' name sponsors.

Sports other than football
The 1986 European Athletics Championships in which the hammer throw world record by Yuriy Sedykh was set, and the 1993 World Athletics Championships were held in the stadium. The stadium was the host of the IAAF World Athletics final from 2006 to 2008, after which the stadium underwent redevelopment in order to build a football-only arena. The arena has also been the venue of four Eurobowl finals of American Football from 1994 to 1997.

Renovations and redevelopment into football-specific stadium
In 1993 the fabric roof of the stadium was constructed. From 1999 to 2003 the upper tier of the main stand was demolished and rebuilt. In 2005 the opposite stand received a new upper tier as well.

The redevelopment into a football-specific stadium was announced along with the stadium's name change in late March 2008. The first computer images of the new arena were released at the same time, also showing a large cube with four video scoreboards above the centre circle, similar to the one in the Commerzbank-Arena in Frankfurt.

Starting in 2009, the Mercedes-Benz Arena has been redeveloped into a football-specific stadium. New stands were constructed, after the running track was demolished and the pitch level was lowered by 1.30 metres in time for the beginning of the 2009–10 season. Both curves were completely demolished and rebuilt closer to the pitch during the next two years. After the interior redevelopment finished, the roof was expanded to cover all the new rows of the seats. The entire construction was completed by the end of 2011.

Within the first couple of weeks of the redevelopment, 18 undetonated bombs left over from the air raids on Stuttgart during the Second World War were found on the construction site.

During the 2017 summer break, the stadium roof was replaced at a cost of €9.75 million, as the membrane that had covered the stadium since the 1993 World Athletics Championships had reached the end of its service life after 24 years. From 2022 to 2024, various construction measures were carried out in the run-up to the UEFA Euro 2024. The lower level of the main stand, which dates back to 1974, was completely rebuilt and the main stand was extended up to the roof supports. This resulted in new team cabins, sports function rooms, a new media centre, another business area and a modern production kitchen. The planned construction costs originally totalled around €98.5 million. However, they rose to €139.5 million over the course of the project. The conversion was completed at the end of March 2024.

International tournaments matches
All times local (CET)

1974 FIFA World Cup
Stuttgart hosted the following matches at the 1974 FIFA World Cup:

UEFA Euro 1988
These UEFA Euro 1988 matches were played in Stuttgart:

2006 FIFA World Cup

The following games were played at the stadium during the 2006 FIFA World Cup:

UEFA Euro 2024
The stadium hosted four group stage matches and one quarter-final match at the UEFA Euro 2024:

Concerts
Pink Floyd performed at the stadium on 25 June 1989 as part of their 1989 Another Lapse European Tour (A Momentary Lapse of Reason Tour).

English rock band Genesis continued their Turn It On Again: The Tour at the stadium in a sold-out crowd of 50,736 fans in attendance.

Depeche Mode performed at the stadium on 3 June 2013 during their Delta Machine Tour, in front of a sold-out crowd of about 36,000 people.

title: MHPArena


text:
User talk:Superstarksa

Welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for your contributions to the coolest online encyclopedia I know of =). I sure hope you stick around; we're always in need of more people to create new articles and improve the ones we already have.  You'll probably find it easiest to start with a tutorial of how the wikipedia works, and you can test stuff for yourself in the sandbox.  When you're contributing, you'll probably find the manual of style to be helpful, and you'll also want to remember a couple important guidelines.  First, write from a neutral point of view, second, be bold in editing pages, and third, use wikiquette.  Those are probably the most important ones, and you can take a look at some others at the policies and guidelines page. You might also be interested in how to write a great article and possibly adding some images to your articles.

Be sure to get involved in the community – you can contact me at my talk page if you have any questions, and you can check out the village pump, where lots of wikipedians hang out and discuss things. If you're looking for something to do, check out the community portal. And whenever you ask a question or post something on a talk page, be sure to sign your name by typing ~~~~.

Again, welcome! It's great to have you. Happy editing! --Spangineer (háblame)  14:03, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Superstarksa


text:
User:PhilipR/Scope

As a novice but avid Wikipedian, I'm particularly fasicinated by some of the "meta-Wiki" sort of questions regarding organization of information. It's absolutely clear that Wikpedia has both prominent and consistent strengths and drawbacks.

title: User:PhilipR/Scope


text:
Talk:La Salle College

501A and Paul Lau
I doubt it is appropiate to give Dr. Paul Lau such a large space in this article, as he has already got an entry solely on him. It may be not too appropiate to delete his part without acknowledge other people. An another mistake in this entry is that our 501 A in 2003, actually is not the record of HKCEE, which I am really sad about it. And indeed, I am the one who typed that part into this entry. Another famous school in Hong Kong Island has achieved over 510 A in the same year.

Being a member of the school has no implication with knowing the facts, by the way.

I am currently finding evidence showing there is a school getting more than 501A in 03 HKCEE. I would be most delighted if I find out what I am saying is wrong. You may contact me through Eddy Wong or your CRB chair, asking for lscjonathan.-- 2006-03-30 23:38:50 Lscjonathan

 * First, please notice that there is no separate entry for Paul Lau. The link, as it have seemed, Paul Lau, redirects to this article. The big paragraph on this article about Paul Lau is a result of a previous debate: Articles for deletion/Paul Lau.

 * Second, I doubt that another school achieved more than 501A in the HKCEE history. -- D e  ryc  k C.  04:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * From a reliable source, which is the speech day program of the school, I have confirmed that my previous source was wrong, ie, the 501A LSC achieved in 2003 remains the highest number of A in HKCEE hisstory. I am sorry for the previous claim without confirming the source. Personally, I am delighted to know that LSC remains the school with the highest number of HKCEE A.

I am quite frustrated finding 2 links to Chinese article at the left column. This never happen in any other article.

Help me with the vandalism
There are so many people vandalizing this page that I think I'm going to violate the 3RR rule if I've to defend. Somebody help doing it with me please. -- D e  ryc  k C.  15:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Bauhinia Bowl

 * Saying that LSC had won Bauhinia Bown 24 times and that she has already won the 2006 championship is strict vandalism. -- D e  ryc  k C.  06:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm confused. The article above lists La Salle College as winning the Boys School award 24 times. I counted; it's definitely listed 24 times, not 21. So why is this incorrect—this appears to be a matter of fact, rather than opinion. (I'm happy to accept that this year's award is yet to be decided, although it is listed in the article on the Bowl). Where is the error? Sliggy 19:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

As a member of the school I know the facts. Please let me revert all those vandalism things. You don't have to interfere with the content accuracy. A lot of vandals saying the same thing doesn't mean the thing is correct. -- D e  ryc  k C.  04:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Traditions
Shall we add a section for Lasallian traditions? --2006-04-02 09:37:30 152.3.44.147

 * Yes, if you can. Please consider signing up so that we won't misrecognize you as a vandalist. -- D e  ryc  k C.  07:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I prefer not to register at this moment. Perhaps I will tag my edits with "edit summaries", so everyone will know what I have changed?
 * But if your IP is not static it's no use. -- D e  ryc  k C.  18:29, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Bauhinia Bowl
I've decided to leave the version by 218.102.109.170 in order to avoid an edit war. However I've two points to question:

 * 1) Accuracy of Bauhinia Bowl is questionable. Please don't use that as a reference to this article.
 * 2) Although all Bauhinia Bowl competitions have finished and the estimated standings tell us that LSC had won the 2006 champ, but the official result has not been announced. We should not take the 2006 champs into this article for the time being.

-- D e  ryc  k C.  07:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Cheering tradition
Is there a Tradition cheer that "one spells out the acronym of the school name, "L S C", and another that calls for the students to "never say die"."? I can't recall this cheer in my memory. --2006-04-03 20:13:15 Lscjonathan

 * I think not so. I've never heard this slogan. Rather, the slogan I've heard is "La Salle spirit, never say die". Next time please start a new discussion at the bottom, not the top. -- D e  ryc  k C.  15:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

 * The cheers I was referring to are the "Gimme an L, Gimme an S, Gimme a C, etc." and "La Salle Spirit, Never Say Die". The way I put it was just to make the prose flow better, rather than simply listing out the cheers.

 * Your act makes people feel that we actually shout "LSC never say die", which is distracting. -- D e  ryc  k C.  04:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Apostles' Creed?
I think F2s say this prayer solely because this has to be examed. In other forms, this never appears. I'd suggest this prayer be removed from the prayers' description. -- D e  ryc  k C.  14:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure about the true reason behind us F2s saying the Apostles' Creed, as long as it has been demanded to be said by teachers. Maybe it should be removed. Nevertheless, it is printed in the diary... -- Hk_linus 15:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Continued vandalism
There is continued vandalism of removing the passage about Paul Lau. Would all active editors of this article please regularly check out such vandalisms and deal with them, as they happen so often whenever the passage is not (yet) deleted (being vandalized). -- D e  ryc  k C.  05:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

 * OK, I'll keep my eye out for this passage's deletion. Sliggy 15:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Thank you ^_^. Before that I thought you allowed that removal of passage because you added things on top of the vandalized passage and that you voted delete before in the Paul Lau afd. -- D e  ryc  k C.  07:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Removal of passage about Paul Lau
Please discuss any proposed change to the section "The first layman principal" here, before anybody removes the passage again. --Deryck C. 05:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Paul Lau was decided not to be notable in his own right. From the AfD decision, "painful detail about the headteachers upbringing would not work well in that article, nor would much more than a mention in the infobox." Most of the material in the biographical section is not relevant to the scope of the article, hence removed. Paul Lau is not even headmaster anymore -> crud. If you want to discuss what influence he has been on the school's history, and how his previous career is relevant to this, fine. But don't just plonk down his whole biography, none of which is relevant. I read a perfectly ordinary teacher's biography here, and it doesn't belong. - User:Samsara (talk • contribs) 10:38, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The biggest hug
I have heard that the biggest hug was not officially approved by Guinness as a record due to some problems concerning the video recording. Is there anyone who can have good sources to know if the record did hold or not before? Checkiema 16:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The biggest hug was not officially approved by Guinness, but not due to a problem with the video. The problem was, not more than three months before LSC performed the hug, another party performed a slightly bigger hug which was not put onto the list of records until a year after LSC performed another "record-breaking act". --Deryck C. 04:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Assess
A good start but not yet a B as article is lacking any references. The alumni need sorting out. Red-linked alumni should be referenced. Ask at WikiProject Schools if you need any help. Dahliarose 19:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The assessment has not changed. This article is still completely without external references, and while otherwise of B quality, references are key to this rating. Please have a look at other B articles for a bettor idea of what this entails. Adam McCormick (talk) 14:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

World War II
Hi I would like to offer some help to clarify and improve the history write up for the school. It's right now pretty messed up and facts are wrong. For example, how could  be talking about Bro Aimar and his 7 years of success? Bro. Aimar died in Indochina in 1945, during the war. The whole section of After the War relates to 1932 to 1939.

Regarding the problems that the writings do not have references to support it, we can use the History book that I wrote, Sons of La Salle Everyone, that was published in December 2007 to support most, if not all, the history information.

Other problems are for example: there is also little coverage on Perth Street, and the photos are also wrongly positioned, not relating to the period the text is talking about. I can offer some good photos of the school

Also, some time ago, I had added more detailed information regarding the the German Interment in La Salle in 1939 to 1940, with a link to one of the internees (Gerhard Neumann). That was in show up for a while, but I don't know how come that information has disappeared, and I can't find when it was removed/edited.

Can someone advise how can I make the changes to the history section? I tried making changes yesterday, but the changes did not show up, as they were looking for some supporting information.

Mghome (talk) 06:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Failed Good Article nomination
I am quickfailing this article due to the lack of references. I have also glanced through the article so here are some comments: Good luck improving the article. Eóin (talk) 23:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The lead should be expanded in order to adequately summarize the article. see Lead section
 * Right now the only references are from the school. Try using Reliable sources such as local newspapers.
 * Image:Schoolbadge color.gif needs a fair-use rationale. Try using Template:School rationale.
 * The academic section could use information about the entire student body rather than just individual students.

Failed GA
I'm sorry, but the article cannot be passed at this time. Not all of the suggestions from the previous review of the article were addressed. Here are some more things to work on before renomination: Good luck. Nikki 311  21:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The article needs to be fully referenced. There are sections and paragraphs without a single in-line citation.
 * The lead needs to be expanded, per WP:LEAD to summarize all the main points of the article.
 * Only the first word in a header should be cap unless it is proper. (A New Beginning)

Ages allowed before 1956
It is not clear to me (North American) which grades or ages were allowed at the school. That is, there may have been a standard break between primary and secondary education in Hong Kong at the time, but I do not know what it was. What was the age range permitted at the College before 1956? Thanks, Fotoguzzi (talk) 02:25, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

'Revere'?
Why is the word 'revere' used to describe local attitudes towards the school? This smacks of self-aggrandisement. 'Love unquestionably, uncritically, or to excess.' That is certainly matches propaganda put out by the school, but such mythologising in an encyclopaedic article is excessive and repugnant. Sexyharry (talk) 04:37, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Please be bold and change it! Deryck C. 21:25, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

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title: Talk:La Salle College