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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Turner (utensil)

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was merge/redirect. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:15, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Turner (utensil)
Was tagged as a speedy. Delete. Lupo 09:24, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, notable kitchen utensil. Kappa 09:31, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. The article could be expanded, though. -Hapsiainen 13:08, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge to kitchen utensil. Radiant_* 13:32, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * comment - Kitchen utensil seems to be redirecting to Category:Food preparation utensils, anyone know what this is about? -- Lochaber 13:34, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, needs expansion and could do with a picture. -- Lochaber 13:34, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Lovely Utensil. I might at the photo at spatula is misslabeled, as it is really a turner. A spatula is a flat bladed thing used for mixing. Klonimus 20:26, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Not mislabeled; "turner" is just one alternative name for this kind of spatula. "Spatula" is a very overloaded term for kitchen utensils; refers to many flat utentils including those used to lift, and scrape, spread. Interestingly--perhaps regional differences--I myself wouldn't know what a "turner" was if someone asked for one, but I *would* know what a "pancake turner" was. Go figure. Elf | Talk 19:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * As much as I would like to say delete, we do have breadbox, so . . . keep. --Scimitar 13:52, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. It's at least as worthy as frosting spatula. Brenton 15:54, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep. A useful definition, which has (allbeit limited) scope for expansion. Worthy of remaining as a stub, certainly no grounds to delete (and definitely not as a speedy as you mention, Lupo!). UkPaolo 16:38, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with spatula. -- BD2412  talk  17:05, 2005 May 31 (UTC)
 * Here we go again: all nouns are notable. Might as well merge WP with Wiktionary now and get it over with. In fact, if "keep" prevails here, let's propose a change to WP:NOT to remove the "not a dictionary" line, since pretty soon WP will be a de-facto dictionary. Dicdefs are being voted "keep" pretty regularly. Delete or Merge with spatula —Wahoofive (talk) 18:01, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Of course real things are notable, but I strongly oppose re-merging with wiktionary, or we'd end up with "all words in all languages". Kappa 18:07, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Huh? If your recent voting pattern prevails, WP will end up with "all words in all languages" without being merged with Wiktionary.  I vote delete for the same reason as Brenton voted to keep:  "It's at least as worthy as frosting spatula."  No English cliches that I know of, nor standard line of questioning, uses "turner (utensil" as notably as "bigger than a breadbox".  Barno 18:51, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think you've been watching my votes very carefully. Kappa 19:10, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with spatula. Elf | Talk 19:09, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge as per Elf. I'm very much an inclusionist on kitchen utensils, but these items have no meaning outside of spatula, and this small amount of info would be more useful in that article. Meelar (talk) 19:32, May 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with spatula. --Carnildo 21:03, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep all common household objects. Capitalistroadster 23:34, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with spatula --Doc (?) 08:21, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with spatula, since spatula is an inherently funny word. the wub (talk) 15:16, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * keep please this is much more than just an ordinary noun Yuckfoo 16:06, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep common household object. JamesBurns 09:43, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge. From the stub: The turner is a specialized form of a spatula. There's not much to write about the spatula, let alone having separate articles for these. No Account
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


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User talk:Retaggio

If you need a quick response, please leave a message on my it.wiki discussion page. Thanks :-)

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! -- Longhair | Talk 09:25, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
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47 in Neapolitan
Hi, I am collecting translations for the number 47 (forty-seven). So far I have 509 translations, which you can see here. Can you help and tell me how to say and write 47 in Neapolitan? I'd be most thankful; please reply on my talk page. Thank you! — N-true 15:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

sblocco
in wiki italiana la mia utenza è stata ulteriormente bloccata ieri per 1 mese a causa del solito errore scaturito da controllo CU ossia gli IP condivisi sono sistematicamente confusi con utenti che producono fantocci o sockpuppet per un semplice sospetto non convalidato scientificamente. Mi appello a te sostenendo che l'utente Chinna condivide con me gli stessi IP quindi ancòra richiedo lo sblocco immediato o almeno una notevole riduzione della sua durata: concedetemi almeno il beneficio del dubbio. Ossequi, it:utente:Tamburellista 1 lug 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.67.86.26 (talk) 11:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to The Wikipedia Adventure!

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ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:02, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Facebook
Domanda che può forse sembrarti un po’ stupida, siamo amici su FB e se si chi sei? ;) Kasper2006 (talk) 16:56, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Retaggio


text:
22-20s (album)

22-20s is the debut self-titled album by the English rock band 22-20s, released 20 September 2004.

Track listing

 * All songs written by Martin Trimble, except where noted.
 * 1) "Devil in Me" 4:16
 * 2) "Such a Fool" 3:56
 * 3) "Baby Brings Bad News" (Charly Coombes) 3:48
 * 4) "22 Days" 2:58
 * 5) "Friends" 4:00
 * 6) "Why Don't You Do It for Me?" 3:38
 * 7) "Shoot Your Gun" 4:46
 * 8) "The Things That Lovers Do" 4:05
 * 9) "I'm the One" 2:57
 * 10) "Hold On" 5:18

Bonus track

 * "Baby, You're Not in Love" 3:27 (Japan and U.S. versions only)

Personnel

 * Martin Trimble: Guitars, Vocals
 * Charly Coombes: Keyboards, Vocals
 * Glen Bartup: Bass
 * James Irving: Drums, Percussion

Release
The album has been released in various countries.

title: 22-20s (album)


text:
Talk:Paradox Interactive

Voice Chat Now Included
Voice chat is included in Diplomacy for treaty/negotiation purposes as of six months ago... Patch v1.3

Paradox Interactive was a division of Paradox Entertainment, but the companies have now separated. I am not exactly sure what P-E does (I believe they publish non-computer games). Jordi·✆ 09:27, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The last few edits.
I made the last few edits not under my new user name.

There seems to be a trend towards the highly subjective within any article associated with Paradox Interactive. Their games may be popular and many may enjoy them - but Wikipedia isn't a platform for their advertisement. --- Brheas 03:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Paradoc Interactive.png
Image:Paradoc Interactive.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 07:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Not allowed in main article
Apparently this isn't allowed in the main article because it's not praise. Here's what I wrote, though. Despite what some claim, it is fact. If you think it isn't, feel free to register and find out.

"It should be noted that the Paradox Forums have several restrictions for posters. For example, any discussion glorifying the Holocaust or Naziism is strictly prohibited. Users may be banned for bringing up these topics in such a manner. The purpose is two-fold. First, Paradox wishes to continue selling its games in Germany, Austria, and Italy, where glorification of Naziism or the Holocaust is strictly prohibited. Secondly, such discussions can cause unnecessary hurt for users. Paradox also has several restrictions that can cause immediate banning, resulting in some animosity from current and past posters. Asking for any information on when a future patch may be released will result in banning. Any mention of certain rival forums, such as The Tomatoforum, may result in immediate banning. According to some members, anti-Americanism is allowed, and encouraged in some cases, while anti-European or anti-socialist talk can result in immediate banning. Personally insulting mods or questioning them can result in immediate banning as well. The forums do offer a good resource for information and tips on Paradox games, but posters must tread lightly. Ask intelligent questions and avoid certain topics and a new poster should be fine and have a fun time."

 * As an American member of the Paradox forums, I don't get a sense of anti-Americanism anywhere in the forum. There are a good number of American members and I doubt they'd continue to participate in forum discussions if there was general dislike of Americans. Panzer V Panther 13:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

 * The rules about what is and isn't allowed aren't determined by the individual editors who work on this page. your edits were probably removed as they contain, in part, original research. see No_original_research. if you can find independent verification of your points, and persist against any that edit against you in spite of this, then you'll get the section in--Mongreilf (talk) 14:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Interesting
Interesting that positive POV is allowed, but what P-dox considers negative POV (though the statements were face) are not allowed.

 * If you feel that other parts of an article is against the guidelines you should strive to correct it, not add more of the same...

 * My initial revertion was based on Neutral point of view and Verifiability guidelines. I could also have added a link to "Wikipedia is not a soapbox". Your addition was about Terms of Service of one webforum. Very few doesn't have that and this is hardly encyclopedic/notable. Several of your statemens are not verifiable, some even outright wrong, while some are mere hearsay. --Havard 11:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

 * As I responded on your talk page, most of the statements are facts. All one has to do it so to the Paradox forums to confirm them. I will gladly edit out the few sentences that are POV and repost. RTexasUSA

 * Havard, are you having a hard time growing up? Everyone else has. Do point out the specific parts of his addition that are POV. Kyujuni 02:25, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Verifiability is a valid concern here. What proof is there about this stuff?  I don't remember being told anything about not mentioning the Tomatowhatsit place when I registered for the Paradox forums.  I'd never even heard of it until five minutes ago and, having visited the website, I still don't know exactly what it is. O_o And not glorifying Naziism or the Holocaust?  Big freakin' deal.  That's just good sense.  Only Nazis (read: morons), anti-Semites (read: morons), Holocaust Deniers (read: morons) and their ilk (read: other morons not specifically mentioned), would do that, Paradox's particular policy on it is irrelevant.  Panzer V Panther 13:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Patches
The article mentions that Paradox continues to support their games long after release, which is great, but fails to mention that most of the games they release demand patches because they are so buggy in the first place. Conventional wisdom is to wait to buy a Paradox Game until the first patch. thezirk (talk)

"We had this vision of people buying a Paradox game without knowing what the game was; that 'Paradox' should be a guarantee for a type of game experience" Yeah, i sure know that experience, wait until the second patch and don't spend 20 dollars on three mechs. Not to mention it's 1.3 and the game still is buggy crap with seemingly one voice actor.speaking all women.i would have known that HBS gets bought by PE I wouldn't have Kickstartet battletech. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.11.119.77 (talk) 17:01, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Public?
What's the company's stock symbol, if it's publicly traded? I looked everywhere, and couldn't find it. --66.191.125.140 (talk) 11:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it called Paradox Interactive in Sweden? I've searched the OMX (Sweden's stock market) and found nothing as well. --24.183.38.171 (talk) 19:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Paradox Interactive is a privately owned company according to http://www.allabolag.se/5566674759/verksamhet and the official name of the company in Sweden is Paradox Interactive AB. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.197.61 (talk) 08:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

GamersGate regions
Is GamersGate limited to people residing in certain regions/nations? Thanks! SharkD (talk) 01:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC) No, it is not. All you need is internet connection and valid form of payment. And some games require third party registering. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.70.145.77 (talk) 19:06, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

'Shortcomings'
I undid an edit that added a 'shortcomings' section talking about forum discussion of games requiring patches for bugs etc. Though I do agree that the 'Forum' section is a bit too sticky-sweet in its tone, the added section seemed to just point to a rant-like forum thread to back up a contention that Paradox games require patches, which unfortunately is an issue with nearly every game publisher and developer. I would suggest that if the author would like to add this point, he/she back it up with some details on if and how this problem is unique to Paradox. --GGG65 (talk) 02:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The issue is not that the Paradox games requires patches but that they ask to pay to get fixes. In fact the actual policy is to add some few "new features" and call the fixes expansions. Obviously in such a way clients has to pay to get fixes. Please read the trhead which I linked or more in general please make a research on that and you will find a confirmation of my statement --Calgaco (talk) 18:36, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

 * This general concept (patches, expansions) is discussed in the fourth paragraph under the Games section. I'll reword that section a bit to be a little more NPOV, but it is covered there.  To highlight this further, you would need to point out how this is different for Paradox compared to other publishers that use patches (and expansion packs).  A search of forums and update histories shows Paradox's patching frequency and free fixes history to be equal or superior to that of many other strategy game developers such as Firaxis and Creative Assembly.  If you have more third-party references or citations I would suggest adding them into the existing paragraph in the Games section. --GGG65 (talk) 06:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The first couple of fixes are required because the game is not playable at all or because the bugs are very big. Rome after the expansion (a pay for fixes) is still bugged and crashes. The point is that Paradox games requires patches that you have to pay for. "In fact the actual policy is to add some few "new features" and call the fixes expansions. Obviously in such a way clients has to pay to get fixes". --Calgaco (talk) 07:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Could you please have a look at the Paradox forum? http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9558025&postcount=103 http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9547401&postcount=95 etc. --Calgaco (talk) 07:35, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That kind of forum posts would not be admissable as sources for this. You would need third party sources like game reviews and articles from gaming sites etc. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Why not? Is what the customers say about their game experience.--Calgaco (talk) 10:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

 * They do generally not live up to the Wikipedia rules about verifiability and adhering to a neutral point of view (You could also find forum posts that expresses the opposite view). For a more detailed explanation you might want to read Reliable sources and Reliable sources/Noticeboard. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I know the documents you quoted but please consider that my intention is not to assess/review Paradox games. My intention is sic et simpliciter to report the opinion of some customer. --Calgaco (talk) 10:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Your intention is irrelevant in this matter as it is the material you add to the article that is the problem. The fact that a single customer is quoted from a forum thread is (besides the reasons I stated above) fringe theory. Please do not add the material once more as you do not have established consensus for this material, and you would also break the 3RR. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:44, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

You show the fact that you haven't read the thread that I linked: it is not one customer but many. Could you please try to have a look at it before reverting what you don't know? Thank you --Calgaco (talk) 11:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It does not matter if it is one or several users, the point is that forum threads with very few exceptions (of which this is not one) are not permissable as sources in wikipedia articles. I have provided you with enough links for you to understand that fact. I can see that you do know what edit warring means from previous experience, and as such you should know that you will need to establish consensus before adding disputed material to an article. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:47, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Another upcoming Paradox project
"Ship Simulator Extremes" is another upcoming game that Paradox Interactive will be publishing. It is currently scheduled for Q1 2010.

--RMS Gigantic (talk) 02:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Magna Mundi postponed
According to the Paradox Website Magna Mindi is postponed until ealry 2012. http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/magna-mundi--109.91.76.29 (talk) 02:16, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Redone Forums Section?
Alright, this part of my section is just saying that I'm new to editing, and I don't actually go on the Paradox forums, but I'm making this section for the sake of getting rid of an extremely bad section. Generally, sorry for the bad redo, but that's why I'm not putting it straight into the article, and I am instead simply posting it in discussion as a request for comments.

The complexity of the games often warrants player collaboration over the forums. Often, players will assist other players with the games, post modifications, and write "after action reports". Due to much of the game content being in plain text and image files, modifying the games has become very popular. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NuclearWizard (talk • contribs) 21:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

New trend: In game DLC store
I have noticed that most games coming out now, published by Paradox but by other developers have an in-game DLC store which is never mentioned on the store page when you buy the game. Examples include:

Leviathan Warships Game of Dwarves War of the Roses Showdown Effect Starvoid Dungeonland Cities in Motion 2

Because they are by different developers but all published by Paradox I think there must be some kind of company policy in force here.

I'm not sure where this could be mentioned in the article or even if it should be.

94.6.250.82 (talk) 09:22, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Sources for Citation needed
The learning curve being steep is something that was marked as citation needed. the following articles / reviews mention the steep learning curves. There are also numerous forum posts to that effect but I figured those couldn't be sources. (overall they seem to agree, though there are some that say they aren't too bad).

this is my joystick on march of eagles wargamer about hearts of iron III

I have no idea how to fix this in the article though, can I simply replace the citation tag with a [N] tag with footnote? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorishilhorst (talk • contribs) 06:47, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Cancelled games
The company has cancelled 5 games. This is important to consumers and should be noted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Futomato (talk • contribs) 16:35, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

DLC
Would criticism of Paradox's DLC practices be major enough to be worth mentioning? EditWorker (talk) 15:57, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

 * Only if one were very careful to maintain neutrality in doing so. Citing major games journalist websites or VERY popular complaints from fan sites (I.e. reddit or something like that) could count so long as one explicitly states it was them who made the complaint.  This coupled with any response the company had to these complaints would make for a relatively neutral post.  Make sure to run it by someone who is either a long time editor or an admin before you publish anything, just to be safe. Jyggalypuff (talk) 19:17, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Battletech/HBS
I propose a paragraph be written on HBS studios, Battletech (published by Paradox programmed by HBS) and HBS acquisition by Paradox, with a link to the Harebrained Schemes LLC wikipedia page at the top of it. With Harebrained schemes now owned by Paradox, it, and any further actions done by HBS studios, is now directly relevant to Paradox activities. Jyggalypuff (talk) 19:15, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Ownership
The owner of Paradox is listed as Tencent. This is misleading given they only own 5% of the shares in Paradox Interactive when WesterInvest AB and Investment AB Spiltan own significantly more shares (33.4% and 22% respectively according to the company's 2018 accounts). Should this be updated? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.200.207.215 (talk • contribs)

 * We can use their latest filings to mention that, yes. It gives a better impression. I found the link to their investment breakdown and will include the top 5 --M asem (t) 19:29, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Game series sections
can anybody help or be willing to help.

for games likes crusader kings, eu, etc.

Paradox as a publisher for Penumbra: Black Plague
I had no idea about this, but it turns out that Penumbra: Black Plague was published by Paradox. Still, for some reason Paradox is not listed as the publisher in Steam's store page. 84.231.70.192 (talk) 21:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Paradox Interactive


text:
User talk:Pt/Archive 1

Welcome to the Wikipedia
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Be Bold!

Sam [Spade] 00:12, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hello. Your way of using the phrase the existence theorem in the article titled trigonometric identity make it look as if you have in mind either that you've specified which existence theorem you're talking about, or that there is only one existence theorem. In the former case, the link to existence theorem seems inappropriate, since that page is not about any particular existence theorem concerning solutions of differential equations, but about existence theorems generally. There are thousands of existence theorems, and most of those are not about the solutions of differential equations. Michael Hardy 00:37, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I did not notice that. I just added a little colon (which definitely seemed to be missing) and did not think about the deeper meaning of the sentence at all. The link is really out of place, but right now I have no idea what it should point at. Perhaps User:Dissipate, who wrote that sentence first, knows... --Pt 10:05, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Issue
Hi. I'm afraid a user cannot insert himself in one of Wikipedia's category, as you have done with the 1986 births category. That would qualify as vanity, and Wikipedia has some strict policies concerning it. I would suggest that you remove the link from your user page (and hence from the category) before someone else catches up and edits your user page (and nobody likes that...). Regards, Redux 13:39, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Thank you for pointing this out. Now I know. --Pt 23:02, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Article Licensing
Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 2000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:
 * Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
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 * Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the " " template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

 * Option 1
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

OR
 * Option 2
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions to any U.S. state, county, or city article as described below:

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace " " with "  ". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

title: User talk:Pt/Archive 1


text:
File:Camel-Camel.jpg

Summary
Cover of the Camel album Camel.

Fair use rationale for the article Camel
The album cover image associated with this page is claimed to be used under fair use as: ''Note that this does not claim fair use in articles other than Camel. If you wish to use this image in another article, please add a new fair use rationale below.''
 * 1) No free or public domain images exist for this or any album cover.
 * 2) This image does not replace the original market role of the album.
 * 3) This should and most likely be used only on the article for the album it depicts.
 * 4) This image is widely distributed in other venues, so its use on Wikipedia does not make it significantly more accessible or visible than it already is.
 * 5) This image meets all general Wikipedia content requirements and is encyclopedic.
 * 6) The image significantly illustrates the object of the article.
 * 7) The image does not limit the copyright owners' rights to distribute the album in any way.
 * 8) The cover is being used for educational and informational purposes only, and its use is not believed to detract from the original album in any way, or deprive its copyright holders of any financial gain.
 * 9) The image is of lower resolution than the original cover. Copies made from it will be of inferior quality, and could not be used as artwork on illegal CD copies of the album.

title: File:Camel-Camel.jpg


text:
User talk:All your base are belong to us

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! -- Longhair | Talk 09:29, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
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text:
User:Gerryk

gerryk_AT_gmail.com

title: User:Gerryk


text:
Salm-Kyrburg

Salm-Kyrburg was a state of the Holy Roman Empire located in present-day Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany, one of the various partitions of Salm. It was twice created: the first time as a Wild- and Rhinegraviate (partitioned from Upper Salm), and secondly as a Principality (succeeding the earlier Principality of Salm-Leuze). The first state of Salm-Kyrburg was partitioned between itself, Salm-Mörchingen and Salm-Tronecken in 1607, and was inherited by Salm-Neuweiler in 1681 upon the lines' extinction.

In 1742, Salm-Kyrburg was raised to a principality; it shared its vote in the Reichstag with Salm-Salm. Salm-Kyrburg was annexed by France in 1798; this was recognized by the Holy Roman Empire in the Treaty of Lunéville of 1801. As a compensation, the princes were granted new territories formerly belonging to the Bishops of Münster in 1802, which formed the newly founded Principality of Salm.

The full title used by the Princes of the resurrected state was "Prince of Salm-Kyrburg, Sovereign Prince of Ahaus, Bocholt and Gemen, Wildgrave of Dhaun and Kyrburg, Rhinegrave of Stein".

The last prince, Frederick VI, morganatically married Louisa le Grand, with their descendants being created Barons of Rennenberg by Wilhelm II in 1917, but were deemed inelligible to inherit the title of Prince of Salm-Kyburg. With his death in 1905, the Salm-Kyburg family went extinct.

Wild- and Rhinegraves (1499–1681)

 * John VII (1499–1531)
 * John VIII (1531–1548)
 * Otto I (1548–1607)
 * John Casimir (1607–1651)
 * George Frederick (1651–1681)

Sovereign princes (1743–1813)

 * Philip Joseph (Wild- and Rhinegrave of Salm-Leuze) (1743–1779)
 * Frederick III (1779–1794)
 * Frederick IV (1794–1813)

Mediatised princes within Prussia (1813–1905)

 * Frederick IV (1813–1859)
 * Frederick V (1859–1887)
 * Frederick VI (1887–1905)

title: Salm-Kyrburg


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Summary
Cover of the Camel album Mirage.

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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cyberprune

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:18, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cyberprune
Not notable or encyclopedic -- Longhair | Talk 09:32, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete -- Longhair | Talk 09:32, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, website vanity. Google results are mostly forums. --bainer (talk) 11:43, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete ad/vanity. --Etacar11 23:08, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete--Cyberjunkie 12:47, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete drini ☎ 17:14, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


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Talk:Scottish Highlands

Untitled
I note the article offers a definition of Scottish Highlands with respect to Scottish Lowlands, but ignores in its initial definition the existence of the Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland. Whether the Western Isles (where the Gaselic of Highlanders now best survives) should be excluded from the Highlands is somewhat debatable. Also the article ignores the more modern concept of Highlands and Islands which, in broad terms, brings together in one area the Highlands and the Far North (including Orkney and Shetland). Laurel Bush 09:33, 31 May 2005 (UTC).

 * In my Philips Atlas, this area (north-west of the Great Glen) is called the North West Highlands, and the Highland region itself is shown as including the Inner Hebrides and towns such as Newtonmore and Aviemore east of the Great Glen. Shantavira 14:23, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The area is described as the 'Highlands and Islands' in Scotland and the Outer Hebridies should be included in any article dealing with the contemporary highlands (historical references may distinguish between two seperate areas). User:An Siarach

Highlands or highlands
Surely the area in question is a proper noun, and should be refered to with a capital H? Grinner 11:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I just did a quick google search and almost all the first twenty results come back with 'Scottish Highlands', implying its use a proper noun. None of them are capitalised like this article.  I think it's wrong, and it should be changed back as it was

Crosbiesmith 18:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Scottish highlands instead of Scottish Highlands does seem to me a bit like British isles instead of British Isles. Laurel Bush 13:12, 6 January 2006 (UTC).

And perhaps the article would be better merged with Scottish lowlands at Scottish Highlands and Lowlands. Laurel Bush 12:01, 7 January 2006 (UTC).

 * hmmm, that just complicates things if you ask me! I propose we return to capitals for now: a debate about potential merging can wait. I'll move it back tommorow unless someone objects. Grinner 10:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Couldn't move it, but I have made a requested move. Grinner 12:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Just thought I should draw attention to current usage of Scottish lowlands. And the two areas do seem to be mutually defining: if anywhere in Scotland is in the Highlands then it is not in the Lowlands. Laurel Bush 12:39, 10 January 2006 (UTC).
 * With the exceptions of Caithness, Orkney and Shetland, perhaps?--Mais oui! 14:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Scottish highlands → Scottish Highlands – Highlands is a proper noun

Voting

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~

 * Support - as per what I said! Grinner 12:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - using Scottish highlands is a bit like using British isles. Laurel Bush 12:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC).
 * Oppose Why would it be a proper noun? I have lived there, and am still a frequent visitor, and in my experience both lower-case and upper-case are frequently used. The great frequency of the lower-case spelling suggests very strongly that it is not a proper noun, and that users of the upper-case version are making a political point: ie: POV.--Mais oui! 14:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Support It would be normal to capitalise. Astrotrain 21:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - capitalisation is the norm on other sites - Crosbiesmith 19:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - capitalised form is correct.-- Cactus.man  ✍  07:43, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments

If Highlands is not a proper noun then the existance/value of the entire article is questionable. Laurel Bush 16:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC).
 * How so? Tens of thousands of Wikipedia articles regard topics which are not proper nouns.--Mais oui! 19:00, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

If "Highland" is a making a political point, surely "highland" is simply making the opposite point? Grinner 13:45, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

In the first hundred results of a 'scottish highlands' search on google, over 90 are capitalized, and only two use 'Scottish highlands'. I know Mais oui! claims this form is frequently-used, but we need some verifiability here - Crosbiesmith 19:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Moved. — Nightstallion (?) 08:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Coming in a shade late, I'd like to add another point not referred to above. No-one living in the area would normally refer to the Scottish Highlands at all! The area is known either as The Highlands, or The Highlands and Islands. The Scottish Highlands is phrase an outsider, or a tourist agency might use in much the same way that Wikipedia does i.e. as a form of disambiguation. It is perhaps an interesting case where accuracy and clarity are in conflict with one another. If you take a close look at a Google search you should be able to detect this. Really the page should be called 'Highlands (of Scotland)'. Ben MacDui 08:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

 * You're right, but then people living in the islands call the largest island - "the mainland". This does not imply that we should be renaming Britain to Mainland, however. But this aside, I'd support Highlands (of Scotland) rather than "Scottish Highlands". --Lysytalk 09:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Beginning of Highland-Lowland divide
Is first noted by John of Fordun in 1380. The presence of Anglo-Saxons in parts of the South centuries prior to this has no bearing on the fact that we have no evidence of an identifiable cultural split within the Scottish kingdom until this point. Also, the anglicization of the South and Lowlands is beyond doubt and, again, the presence of Angles in the Lothians prior to the founding of the Scottish kingdom has no bearing on the fact that their language and culture later displaced that of the Scots across the rest of the lowlands - hence its anglicization. Neither of these points is debated in my experience (prior to the edits to this article). I have certainly no memory of reading a single Scottish historian doubting the facts with regard to either.

An Siarach

The Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Bernicia (later the northern part of the Kingdom of Northumbria) was established in what is now south-east Scotland in the 6th century. Historically I don't think that Anglic or 'English' culture ever displaced 'Scots' culture in most of the Lowlands. Rather it displaced Pictish/Brythonic culture and language. Ethnolgically and liguistically I'm afraid I rather doubt there ever was an historic 'Scots' culture in much, perhaps even most, of the Lowlands. Even the name 'Scot-land' is a misleading historical accident - more a late political artefact than objective terminolgy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.25.161 (talk) 15:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

I would say the divide comes from the Gaelic/Brythonic divide Scotland was formed from when Pictland merged with the Kingdom of Dál Ríata. The Kingdom of Dál Ríata being the Irish Kingdom which had been there since the 5th century. Tíocfaidh ár lá, Éire. (talk) 14:16, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Map?
Given the complicated geography involved, is there anyone out there that would like to draw a map for the article? This would be really helpful. Of course, if there is a good link out there, would be great too. A suggestion to those in the know! Isoxyl 19:38, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I was also surprised not to see a map on this geography-related article. Maybe just take an existing map and color the areas Jeffhoy 18:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Here are two approximate and not very good maps I made. No doubt someone could do better.

 * [[Image:HighlandLineGeo.png|thumb|Geological Highland Line]]
 * This is the geographic or is that geological highland line? To the south and east is the Lowlands, to the west and north the Highlands.
 * [[Image:HighlandLineLing.png|thumb|Linguistic Highland Line]]
 * This is the linguistic or cultural highland line. The situation would have been so about 1700. To the south and east is the Scots speaking areas, to the west and north the Scottish Gaelic speaking areas. The Scots speaking areas in the North of Ireland are also shown.
 * Nogger 17:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

 * The geological and linguistic Highland line images seem like they might have been promising—what happened to them?  Athænara   ✉  18:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

 * They were deleted because dopey here gave the wrong copyright details. I hope I have done it correctly this time. I made them myself - honest! But I admit I do not hold the copyright to the outline of Scotland - who does?
 * Nogger 14:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The map (geological Highland line) in the article appears inconsistent with the text and inconsistent with the generally recognized fact that the HIghland Boundary Fault is the delineating factor. Thus the Highlands boundary should follow the fault line and come all the way to the NOrth Sea north of Stonehaven. Cuvette 14:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Agreed. Unless a credible explanation can be provided the map should be removed as it is misleading.Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Geological Highland line is perhaps wrong. What the map shows is where the low lying country is. At what height this begins or ends I don't know but will likely be where there is usually arable land as against steep hills and mountains. Nogger 23:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Many of us tend to use the term 'Highland Line', while unsure of its exact meaning. I think this topic deserves a section of its own, with clear sketch-maps separating out the geological demarcation from the cultural one. Valetude (talk) 10:41, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

moved some material from Religion section to Culture section
Hello there, I came across this article when I was disambiguating links and ended up doing some cleanup on the Religion section. I've moved some ofthat to the Culture section as I felt that was more appropriate. I've also removed the following text:

 * This is often not seen among Lowland Scots, where the Protestant population is often not as patriotic towards Scotland, indeed many Lowlanders often sympathise with the United Kingdom before Scotland. As for the Lowland Catholic population, they are often more concerned with Northern Irish/Irish national loyalty than with Scottish.

... which I felt didn't actually inform us about the Highlands and needed some sort of verification before I added it back. Feel free to amend/comment etc. Take care. Politepunk 19:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I found the religion section strange almost Sectarian Roman Catholicism was not completely eradicated in the Highlands. I found several sources saying the reformation did not as strong effect as the English speaking lowlands. Gaelic speaking Highlanders many remained Catholic though predominately Protestant there is a significant Catholic population in the Scottish Highland and western isles.

 * Im a bit dubious about this section. I was under the impression that, southern isles of the Outer Hebrides aside, presbyterian protestantism had spread to pretty much the entirity of Scotland. Are there still some Catholic enclaves in the mainland who maintained their catholicism from prior to the reformation? An Siarach

Not to be a pain, but the vast majority of ethnic Highlanders (pure Celtic by blood) remained Roman Catholic. Most left the Highlands after the Clearances for either North America-read Nova Scotia-or for Lowland cities in search of work. The Highlands themselves have a very limited population now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.2.74.186 (talk) 22:15, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Unofficial Flag of the Highlands
Utter tosh I'd say... Just because someone has setup a website in an attempt to "obtain" a flag doesn't...

I'll have a hunt round to see if this is really any bigger than just one individual.

/wangi 21:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Ive just deleted the section dealing with it as it seemed to me to be utter tosh as well. An Siarach

History?
Unlike, for instance, the article on Shetland, the highland one has virtually nothing about the history of the area - something to add, or write a new article about? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.189.136.126 (talk) 20:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

Absolutely - the lack of a history section in this article greatly surprised me. It's an area that has a rich historical and archaeological tradition and yet the article doesn't mention any of it. At all. I think people are more interested in arguing about the boundaries of the council region than saying anything about the actual Highlands themselves. Lianachan (talk) 12:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Highland Council Area section
The sentence about the police and fire looks as if it needs rewriting after being edited badly. The section on Highland Park seems unnecessary, it includes a sentence about HIE which would be better having its own section with a couple of sentences as well linking to its own page. Perhaps Highland Park can be added to the alternate meanings links at the top? --jmb 09:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, probably could do with a look at. I have removed the Highland Park section since it has nothing to do with this article, and shouldn't be in a dablink either (since nobody will type in "Scottish Highlands" expecting to get to an article on "Highland Park"). Thanks/wangi 11:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Why no Grampian towns?
Why is the list of towns devoid of Grampian locations? Cuvette 14:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Is the map at the right hand side being used as the definition of the boundary of the Highlands though it also includes the Western Isles and Orkney so perhaps more accurately could be defined at Highlands and Islands? A number of towns/villages near Aberdeen seem to being added even though not shown as in the Highlands on the map - Aboyne, Banchory.  Also Stornoway when the page is headed Scottish Highlands, not Highlands & Islands.  --jmb 11:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Per the discussion above under "MAP?", we are not using the map to which you allude Jmb. The Highlands are known to be bounded at the south at the NOrth Sea by the Highland Boundary Fault.  (As far as your comment regarding the name, I think you have a good point, but wouldnt it be better to keep this article as it is and split off another article entitled "HIghlands and Islands" ? Regards. Cuvette 14:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to the Highlands?
Actually the sign in the picture is for Highland Council region which is not the same as the Scottish Highlands at all! --MacRusgail 21:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I had to alter this caption, yet again! --MacRusgail (talk) 20:26, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

 * "A sign on the boundary of the Highland council area implying, controversially, that the boudary is also that of the Scottish Highlands"
 * Why is it controversial? Lots of towns, counties, regions have a welcome sign with some sort of slogan.  It is just a slogan and not expected to be absolutely accurate.  Can we expect to see Trading Standards challenging with life in Nottinghamshire is actually legendary, Moray claims to be whisky country but whisky is also produced elsewhere, is Edinburgh actually "inspiring", is Angus/Forfarshire actually "Scotland's birthplace"?  It just seems a convenient picture.  --jmb (talk) 16:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Culture section seems rather sparse
"Culturally the area is quite different from the Scottish Lowlands." How so? Highland culture is so distinctive that after the Battle of Culloden, the British government took steps to eradicate that distinctiveness, and yet there isn't even a mention of this. At the very least, shouldn't there be a link back to the Scottish clan article? nmw 01:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Religon section needs some work
I took a look at the 2001 census for the Highland Council area (avaliable at http://195.173.143.171/plintra/iandr/cen/prof_high.htm) and according to it 48 percent of the council area's population is Church of Scotland, 12 percent other Christians (Free church mainly I would assume) and 6.8 percent Roman Catholic. I could not find the statistics for Na h-Eileanan Siar or Argyll (it's not online yet but will be soon at the SCROL site) but according to the 2003 GROS "Statistics for Inhabited Islands" report, 45 percent of islanders gave their religion as Church of Scotland while 7 percent gave it as Roman Catholic (avaliable here http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/press/news2003/01inhab-islands-press.html) Most of these Islands like Lewis, Harris, Skye, North Uist, South Uist et al would be in the area considered Highland. I think this article might give the wrong impression of the Scottish Highlands as a majority Roman Catholic area when in reality it's mainly COS or Free Church. In fact, the article's "strongholds" of Roman Catholicism are South Uist population 1818, Morar population 257, Barra population 1078 and Lochaber which is now part of the Highland Council area which as the 2001 census shows only 6.8 percent of its population is RC. However, Lewis and Harris with a population 19,918 of which the majority is Protestant seems to be presented as the minority. I think this article should show that while Roman Catholicism is very important to a small number of the Highland population, the overwhelming majority belongs to either the COS, The Free Church or any of their break off groups.99.249.132.254 (talk) 03:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Fair enough - but whatever you do, please cite your sources. The article is desperately in need of some! Ben MacDuiTalk /  Walk  09:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I tend to agree. Historically, yes, the Highlanders clung to Catholicism, but not now. Most are Protestant, although there are some very notable pockets of Catholicism, and Episcopalianism, which can veer towards it. It should be borne in mind though that many of the Presbyterians are "non-Conformists", i.e. not Church of Scotland, this is partly due to the historyy of the Clearances. In the Outer Hebrides, Barra and South Uist are solidly RC, and North Uist is pretty solidly Protestant, but between North and South Uist, there is a transition zone, and people have moved in modern times of course. The vast majority of printed material (before WWII) in Scottish Gaelic consisted of Protestant tracts etc, and the likes of Pilgrim's Progress in translation.

 * On an interesting sidenote, many people of Highland descent in Nova Scotia are Roman Catholic. This is essentially because many of them emigrated before the Reformation hit their home areas. The Reformation was late in arriving in northern Scotland - including the north east, some parts of Banffshire held out well - but when it did, boy, in some places did it arrive with a vengeance. Lewis, for example has the strongest Protestantism of anywhere in Scotland, without a doubt (excluding the secular "protestantism" of some football fans elsewhere). See also Religion of the yellow stick, for an idea of how some were converted. --MacRusgail (talk) 15:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Your right there MacRusgail, Inverness County in Cape Breton tends to be Roman Catholic, but Victora County tends to be all Presbyterian. The Gaelic College in Cape Breton was founded by a Presbyterian clergymen, but places like SFX definitly show that there is a very strong Roman Catholic tradition in Cape Breton.

I don't see why you have to say that "this area is this religion". That simply isn't true any more. Taking the Scottish Highlands as an example, there are now many people in the Scottish Highlands who have originated from Asia and the Middle East, taking religions such as Islam over. There are also a very large number of irreligious people in the Highlands, and to assume that everyone has a religion or strictly follows the religion they claim to be is highly misleading. 86.162.54.174 (talk) 23:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

You really need to check your figures. Roman Catholicism remains strong among the ethnic highlanders, and the reformation only made good progress AFTER the clearances. I know this because I AM one. We haven't forgotten our real loyalties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.2.74.186 (talk) 15:48, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of catholic or Prodestant, I am curious to know more about the pre-christian religion, that is stated as "anamilistic beliefs and folk mythology". Here i belive is where to find the interesting original loyalites.

Central European Uplands
No doubt the recent edits on this subject were made in good faith, but they are well wide of the mark. This region is, to quote one of the sources used (MSN Encarta) "South of the Great European Plain". See for a map. Ben MacDuiTalk /  Walk  08:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Ben. Maybe that map is newer or made by somebody with a different clasification system of what constitutes physiographic 'areas'? The master list I'm working on at Physiographic regions of the world is based on several handdrawn maps made by Erwin Raisz, A.K. Lobek, and Guy Harold-Smith. Unfortunately I'm on vacation the rest of the year and the maps are in my office, so I can't pull them out easily to see whose map I pulled the European 'areas' from. They were all done in the timeframe of around 1920'2 - 1960's. I found those refs I used yesterday in about 30 minutes of Google searching in an effort to at least have something. I used the Encarta ref merely to show the usage of the term Central European Uplands, since the first ref from Brigham Young used the term 'Hills', which obviously is an incorrect name. But, the Brigham Young site does list the Scottish Highlands and the Massif Central in the same physiographic 'area'. The Encarta reference does list the Massif Central as being in the Central European Uplands section as does the third reference as well. So if the BYU reference uses and obviously wrong name (more of just a generic name), but list several of the prominent provinces within the incorrectly named division, the other two references do use the correct division name (Central European Uplands) and list some of the same component provinces. Here's another ref that says "The central uplands and plateaus present distinctive landscapes of rounded summits, steep slopes, valleys, and depressions. Examples of such physiographic features can be found in the Southern Uplands of Scotland, the Massif Central of France, the Meseta Central of Spain, and the Bohemian Massif." I ran across one yesterday (though I can't find it now) that said the Central European Uplands formed a horseshoe around the Great European Plain. This is such a broad category though (physiography), that several of the various branches have their own terms and boundaries for what the various 'areas' are. It also appears that many parts of the world have now defined various sub-sections that the maps I have didn't classify. So work on defining (or even re-defining) some of the areas still continues. If the above explanations meet your approval, I'll let you revert back. I don't need to get in an edit war over something so generally defined even after at least 60 years or so of work and definitions. I'm merely trying to offer a comprehensive listing of the world's various physiographical 'areas' in one place, since such a listing doesn't exist in any one source yet that I've found. It takes around a minimum of one 'good' source per continent to eventually compile the complete list, and it very well could be the various sources I've run across aren't as good as others, but that's not my call to make. I'm hoping by offering this list, others that do have the in-depth knowledge of this subject will improve upon it, but at least in the meantime, there's something others can hopefully find useful. wbfergus undefinedTalk 10:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Unofficial flag
Is there any evidence that this "unofficial" has ever been used or seen anywhere? Or can we all design our own "unofficial" flags and post them on the page as well? --jmb (talk) 22:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If its not official or well known then it shouldn't be in the article. This article isn't a platform to legitimise someone's 'unoffical' flag.--Celtus (talk) 13:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Aberdeen!?
From the article:
 * Inverness is traditionally regarded as the Capital of the Highlands, although less so in the Highland parts of Aberdeenshire, Angus, Perthshire and Stirlingshire which look more to cities such as Aberdeen, Perth, Dundee and Stirling as their commercial centres. Under some of the wider definitions in use, Aberdeen could be considered the largest city in the Highlands, although it does not share the same recent gaelic cultural history typical of the Highlands proper.

Aberdeen, Perth, Dundee and Stirling, and their associated shires, are all outside the Highlands both geographically and culturally. Is there any point whatsoever to those sentences? I would remove them, but am wondering what the consensus is. Lianachan (talk) 23:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Let us not conflate the Highland Council area with the Highlands. Balmoral is in Aberdeenshire, Ben Lawers & Schiehallion in Perthshire, etc. What is perhaps more relevant is that the latter no longer exists. Ben MacDuiTalk /  Walk  08:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm not conflating anything. Also, as a Highlander myself, I don't really consider those places to be in the Highlands either. Lianachan (talk) 10:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

 * The County of Perth (i.e. Perthshire) still exists as a registration county. --jmb (talk) 09:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I would say the page would be better without the long list of towns and villages, most of which are not really in the "Scottish Highlands" but perhaps in Highland Council area or even just like to think they are in the Highlands for tourism reasons. --jmb (talk) 11:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Towns, Villages and Hamlets
I have added a hamlet to the long list of towns and villages, but I have not altered the title of the section - yet. There are many hamlets in the Highlands which are not included in this list. If they are included here, will the list become unwieldy; but if we distinguish them it may simply lead to arguments if such and such a place is a village or a hamlet. What are your thoughts? Ergateesuk (talk) 11:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

 * WP:MOS is quite clear that lists should be avoided in articles and that ideally entries of this nature should be in prose form. In other words, the ideal solution would be to have a short section identifying the main towns and perhaps villages in specific areas, and otherwise explaining any other relevant issues and move the lists to a completely new article such as List of villages in the Highlands of Scotland or similar. The number of possible entries on this list could then be large, the main difficulty being to come up with a suitable definition or minimum size.Ben MacDuiTalk /  Walk  14:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Thanks Ben for the MOS link. The Highlands is one of the largest geographical areas in Europe, and this list is likely to grow very large.  There are many small villages and hamlets with the same name throughout Highland, so the list will serve a useful purpose.  I am not responsible for this list, and as a newcomer I have not begun a new article.  Perhaps I should learn to do so and attempt this one, but possibly whoever did the most work on it may wish to do it, and they are welcome too.  Ergateesuk (talk) 22:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm afraid this is low on my list of priorities at present, but I do encourage you to be bold. Lists are sometimes rather dry affairs e.g. List of hospitals in Scotland but they can reach featured status e.g. List of Orkney islands. If you want any assistance with this, (or anything else) just let me know. Ben   Mac  Dui  10:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

 * I see that the hamlet question has been addressed at List of places in Orkney which includes them in the same list as towns and villages. I think this is correct but if the Orkney list is as long as it is, imagine how long the Highlands one will be!  Ergateesuk (talk) 06:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Towns, villages
Why is Inverness under towns and villages when it is neither? Would settlements or the like not be more appropriate?(Hypertone (talk) 00:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC))

This article is becoming absurd. The list sections need removing to their own separate articles with a short summary left here. (See WP:EMBED). I am afraid this is very low on my list of priorities however. Ben  Mac  Dui  20:12, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Culture ?
I think that the Scotish Highlands culture should be much better described. I'm not a native british myself, so I can't do so, but I love my new home, and I think it is probably one of the most representative regions of UK.--Highlandist (talk) 19:05, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Requested move (2)
There is a brief introduction to this subject above, discussed in November 2006. The requested move is
 * Scottish Highlands --> Highlands of Scotland.

As mentioned above, no-one in the Highlands would ordinarily refer to the "Scottish Highlands" - this is simply a useful form of "disambiguation" used by outsiders, tourist sites and indeed this organ. A related issue is that such is Wikipedia's prominence now it is in danger of skewing the usage in this direction. However, a quick look round my bookshelf indicates the presence of: Furthermore Keay, J. & Keay, J. (1994) Collins Encyclopaedia of Scotland have seven entries that begin "Highland..." - and none that begin "Scottish Highlands...", for obvious reasons.
 * Fraser Darling, F. & Boyd, J.M. (1969) Natural History in the Highlands and Islands.
 * Hunter, James (2000) Last of the Free: A History of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland.
 * Murray, W.H. (1977) The Companion Guide to the West Highlands of Scotland.

Books using "Scottish Highlands" certainly exist e.g. The rough guide to Scottish Highlands & Islands. I had a look at an ngram - but this can't distinguish books using "Highland" without including those about the other Highland areas of the world. Highlands (of Scotland) would arguably be more accurate but I don't like brackets in page titles unless they can't be avoided. Ben  Mac  Dui  15:45, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

 * I'm not so sure. A quick search on Amazon throws up marginally (about 1,000) more titles for Scottish Highlands than for Highlands of Scotland so at best, I don't think there's much in it. Secondly, it may well be that the locals never call it that but we've had similar discussions (for example the Ganges vs Ganga debate) where in the end, the conclusion was that the overriding principle must follow common English usage, even if that goes against local English usage. I don't see anything wrong with the current name, it's neither offensive, nor incorrect, nor rare/unattested. A case of leave well alone perhaps? Akerbeltz (talk) 18:59, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but can you search for titles including "Highlands/Highland" that are about Scotland only? 2 of the 3 quoted above would not appear in a search for "Highlands of Scotland".  Ben   Mac  Dui  08:32, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, just put them in quotation marks, "Highlands of Scotland" and/or "Scottish Highlands" will only yield results that contain those, not, for example Scottish Cooking in the Highlands of Ethiopia or somesuch. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:32, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * But this would presumably exclude, for example, Natural History in the Highlands and Islands and even Scotland's Highlands of which there are doubtless many. Ben   Mac  Dui  13:01, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Language Never Mainly Gaelic
Speakers of Old English (Angles in fact) settled in south eastern Scotland in the 7th century, at which time Celtic Brythonic was spoken in the south of Scotland to a little way north of the Firth of Forth and the Firth of Clyde, and Pictish was spoken further north. At the same time Gaelic speakers began to spread from the West Coast of Scotland north of the Clyde into the east. Over the next five hundred years with the expansion of the kingdom of the Scots the Gaelic language slowly moved eastwards and southwards across the lowlands. When Northumbrian lands (the Angles' English-speaking kingdom) were incorporated into Scotland in the 11th century Gaelic became the prestige language there and had some influence, but the south east remained largely English speaking. The idea that Gaelic is the traditional language of all Scotland is just nationalistic 'Celtomania' political propaganda. It was the early language of the Scots - but the Scots back were then just one tribe with a small kingdom 'Scotland Proper' in the west of their later 'empire' which incorporated all the other majority non-Gaelic kingdoms in the north of Britain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.31.181 (talk) 17:46, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

What? Tíocfaidh ár lá, Éire. (talk) 14:17, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Language - Suggested correction
Should not the sentence "Between the 15th century and the 20th century, the area was different from the most of the Lowlands in terms of language" rather read "Until the 20th century, the area was different from the most of the Lowlands in terms of language." Otherwise it implies that before the 15th century the language was the same - and it most certainly wasn't. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.96.98 (talk) 09:21, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.180.184.189 (talk) 21:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

It should be made clear that the contempt of Lowlander for the Highlander persisted over a period of several centuries. A frequently-encountered adjective in Scotland's historical record is 'savage' to describe those Scots who inhabited the Highlands. This persisted at least until the late 18th century. A journal entry during Burns' Highland tour in 1787 for example states, 'I write this on my tour through a country where savage streams tumble over savage mountains, thinly overspread with savage flocks, which starvingly support as savage inhabitants.' Cassandrathesceptic (talk) 13:09, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 05:37, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Population?
Why is population not mentioned in the infobox? Should it be? Is it because the Highlands aren't a proper administrative region or something?--Adûnâi (talk) 23:35, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Inappropriate/misused references in Economy section
The section on Economy has the rather surprising statement: The whole point of the kelp industry was that the large profits that could be made during its boom years were retained by the owners of these businesses and that the workforce got very little benefit from this activity. Suggesting that their wages contributed to the economy is a misleading simplification at best.

On looking at the reference, I see that it is a blog from an American travel writer. Surely this part of the section should cite an economic historian?

I note that further on in the section, the next citation is Malcolm Gray (1957). The Highland economy, 1750-1850. Greenwood Press. ISBN 9780837185361. I think that the understanding of the history of the Highlands has moved on since 1957 - and the article content supported thereby seems dubious to me.

Then we find "The Scottish Highlands". Scotland Info Guide. 2015-02-27. Retrieved 2017-05-10. being used as a reference. This is a commercial blog. The content it supports could do with a rewrite based on a better source.

The section goes on to mention the concept of chain migration, supported by Amanda Epperson (Oct 2009). "'It would be my earnest desire that you all would come': Networks, the Migration Process and Highland Emigration". Scottish Historical Review. 88 (2): 313–31. doi:10.3366/E0036924109000882. The reference is a paper that concentrates on one locality in the Highlands, going to one part of the USA (Eastern Ohio). Whilst chain migration did occur, it is a concept not often mentioned by historians who are recognised specialists on the social and economic changes in the Highlands. Interestingly, the word "chain" arises only once in the cited paper, and then it is referring to the onward movement of migrants in the Americas after their arrival (and this sort of discussion can be found in other papers on Highland migrants' behaviour on arrival overseas). I think we have a muddled usage of one reference to produce some misleading comments in the article. And I am not sure why comment on migration should be in the Economy section - if it is important then surely migration should have a section of its own. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 08:37, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

A deletion, with reasons
I have deleted: "due to a combination of factors including the outlawing of the traditional Highland way of life following the Jacobite Rising of 1745, the infamous Highland Clearances, and mass migration to urban areas during the Industrial Revolution," and substituted with some referenced information on when net population of the Highlands was reducing. The deleted text really does not address the causes of population fall, most of which happened after the end of the clearances and certainly long after the Jacobite rebellions. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 17:45, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Another deletion
I have deleted  "Many Highlanders emigrated in a complex form of chain migration. The first arrivals would prepare the way for their kinsmen who continued to arrive in the chain migration. "

Whilst the cited source is a useful paper, the text supported by the citation bears little resemblance to the ideas presented in the paper. If the 'Economy' section is to mention emigration (and I wonder if that is the best place for it), it really needs to say something different to reflect the current thinking of historians. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 07:38, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

'The Emigrants' by William Allsworth
I've removed the painting 'The Emigrants' by William Allsworth. It's very unlikely it's a painting of a highland family. It's held in the collection of the Museum Of New Zealand/Te Papa Tongarewa and they say "Documents have recently come to light that suggest that James Mackay Snr. was probably not the brother of a laird, or even a Mackay from the Scottish Highlands at all. Evidence suggests his real surname was Mackie, and he came from an Aberdeen merchant family. He spent most of his life in London, and all his children were born there." https://collections.tepapa.govt.nz/topic/1406 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neilg (talk • contribs) 10:15, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Northeast Scotland listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Northeast Scotland. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. signed,Rosguill talk 20:34, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Scottish Highlands


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