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Talk:Vampire lifestyle/Archive June 5 2005

'''Article listed on Votes for deletion June 22 to July 7 2004, kept as consensus was not reached. Discussion may be found at Talk:Vampire lifestyle/Delete.'''

Technical Notes
Argh... I hope nobody redirects this page yet again or there will be redirection chains miles long and broken links everywhere! Twice in one day the page was moved... this must be some sort of record. Grr. Please post to talk before doing darastic things unless you just created the article in the wrong place by accident! Falcon 03:32, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

This page might be able to use a bit of wikification. Falcon 02:55, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

NPoV and Weasel Terms
This page desperately needs some sanity. Is the article supposed to be fact or fiction? I'd be interested to know about the human illnesses in which origins of the vampire myth lie. If it's supposed to be fictional, this needs to be made clear and the various substrands of the mythos need to be separated. Lupin 14:40, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * The page is about a religious sect and details their beliefs. It is important in the capacity that the sect has created a new mythology on top of an old one, and is also potentially dangerous.  I dispensed with fiction-clauses after the first few paragraphs for the most part, because the entire article is about a belief system.  Therefore this is not, per se, truth, however it is what a relatively large community believes.  However, it does not deserve seperate articles because it is really one unified topic (although a large anf foreign one).  It is highly inappropriate to have more than one article about a religion or faith as that supposes that the faith is fact - wikipedia in itself is an aethiest.  Falcon 17:14, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

 * Very well. I still believe that it needs to be made far clearer that everything after the introduction is the beliefs of these sect members and not "fact". For example, the articles talks about the features of a subspecies as if it existed:
 * There are primarily two types of vampires; psionic (psi) and sanguarian (sang).
 * This is misleading to say the least. This may seem like an exercise in pedantry on my part but it seems absurd to leave the chance that someone may start reading this stuff in the middle (like I did) and actually take what it is saying as fact. Lupin 23:28, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * This is definately a valid point. I shall make changes to reflect this, but by now it is a huge job.  By the way, Lupin, I am adding to this article all the time and already it is gaining information about psychology and illness (though perfectly NPOV, of course).  An interesting thing I have found about this kind of article is that wikipedia itself cannot possibly avoit taking a POV; because its POV is strictly factual and neutral, it is impossible not do write an article about cults and sects like this without dismissing them as complete bunk.   Falcon 03:23, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

Okay... so there are people who actually believe they are vampires. I'll buy that. And they believe there are different types etc... but this article is very confusing after the first couple of paragraphs because it reads as such a fervant statement of fact. (btw, out of curiosity, have all the other infinite variations on the 'otherkin' theme got their own detailed articles like this one?) KJ 04:28, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * They do not; most are extremely fringe however as far as they go, this one seems to be quite common. And when, and for what reason, did wikipedia limit detail on any article?  I suggest reading the article over again; I spent a half-hour NPOV/aethiesing it so it did not sound that way.  The reason it sounded that way in the first place is I viewed the constant reminders of what the article was to be redundant, repetitive and unnecessary.  Obviously, this is not the case.  And just in case you were wondering about my affiliation with this cult, it is the fact that an ex-girlfriend of mine became to it as a fly is to flypaper.  Falcon 06:13, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

I am adding the NPOV tag in regards to the insults towrds believers peppered throughout the article. If this is actually a religion, then it should be treated as one. I wouldn't edit Judaism or Hinduism and say "These people are likened to fools or people exhibiting symptoms of mental disease". Please remove the degrading statements. DryGrain

 * There is a notable difference between saying "these people are often called" and "these people are". The first, as it said in the article more or less, is simply a statement that many people denegrate the believers.  The second, as is not used, is a blatant insult.  Oh, and please sign your comments.  Falcon 03:39, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)

 * However, Judaism and Hinduism are "valid" religions that have not been proven to be false. For example, while I do not believe any deity whatsoever, no one can actually disprove any major religion. There is not a single person in the world yet that has the authority to say that there is no deity, along with supporting evidence. Likewise, no one can claim that there is a deity, along with supporting evidence. That's why they call it faith, I suppose. Vampirism is an entirely different cookie; vampires have been biologically and physically proven not to exist. The idea of vampires can be traced back to Bram Stoker's literary works, which are in turn based on Vlad Tepes. There is nothing mythological about this whatsoever. What's the difference between someone thinking himself to be The Hulk and between someone thinking himself to be a vampire? Both reject their own personality and project a false image of themselves which is based on modern fictive literature. Yet the person calling himself the Hulk would be classified as insane while a person calling himself a vampire would be considered alternatively religious? Simply because a lot of people think they are vampires doesn't mean it's not a psychological disorder. :: DarkLordSeth 18:51, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

sorry seth, you have no basis on that, and vampirism goes back far beyond good old bram stoker. you need to research more thoroughly.

Gabrielsimon 00:37, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Avoid_weasel_terms. This article is biased against believers of this sect and this bias is veiled poorly behind phrases like "Some people say..." "It is widely believed that...". This article needs to have a neutral point of view towards the believers and give only factual information from an encyclopedic perspective. DryGrain 05:14, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * In this case, the article is factually correct. It is not necessarily true that, say, demons reside in animal blood, however it is true that some members believe that they do.  I don't see any bias at all; if you absolutely must have it changed, feel free.  But isn't it getting a bit late, for you and for me?  Falcon 05:21, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)

''They also have very poor interpersonal skills and are likened to pricks, or people afflicted with ADHD or a similar disorder, or attention-seeking fools. ''

Weasel terms. Likened by whom?

-- hey! whats wrong with having ADHD? if you have something against it you dont know what its like to live with it.

Gabrielsimon 00:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

''This type of member will experience very dramatic symptoms, or at least pretend to. ''

Pretend...?

''Notwithstanding, there appears to be a great concern about vampire slayers, who are viewed as insane, psychotic cultists (among other terms which will not be published here). ''

''This is a natural reaction of being turned off from the cult. ''

When a vampire cultist becomes a parent,...

The term 'cult' is degrading to believers.

Many also claim that they often become ill when eating, however it is not medically possible for a human to survive solely on blood.

While this may be factually correct, it is still a POV statement.

''It is not recommended that a person be used more than three times by the same vampire, or the prey will become inextricably bound and attracted to the vampire. No case of this has ever been noted. ''

It is not nessecary to say that it has never been noted.

''The person will feel (or pretend to feel) unnaturally drained afterward, a symptom believed to be psychosomatic. ''

Pretend...?

''Although it can be removed from a doctor using needles, it is mostly taken from cuts (probably because nobody wants to go to a doctor about vampirism as they would probably end up at a psychiatrist). ''

Let's not infer that belief in this faith is a mental illness, hmm?

''Many believe they were put on Earth to set it right (nobody is specific as to exactly what they are to right). ''

Yet another example of small comments made to detract from the credibility of the claims of this faith.

''On the other hand, cultists of this manner generally go about their lives nocturnally and in isolation anyway, and are made to feel profoundy different (partially due to psychosomatic symptoms). ''

This article needs a massive reworking, as these comments are merely some of the ones which immediately jumped out at me. This needs to be written from an encyclopedic perspective. And what do you mean, getting late, Falcon? DryGrain 05:43, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * It is more or less fact. When general terms are used (the ones you are calling weasel terms), it is a general reference.  Trust me, it is a true one.  But again, if you want to NPOV however you see fit, do so.  And by getting late, I mean that it is 2349h here, and if you are in California it should be something like that.  But, as it is nearly midnight and I actually have school tomorrow, I'd better go to bed.  Falcon 05:48, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)

'Weasel terms' is not my invention. It doesn't matter if that's your perception of them, because that is a POV. If you can reference someone semi-famous or a non-religious organization making these statements, it can be referenced in the article. Actually, I'm in PST, and its only 10:55pm, and if you had read my user page a bit closer than just looking for my contributions to butcher, you'd know I was an unemployed high school graduate. DryGrain 05:57, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Then why don't you clean it up; most of the comments are general and have been said by a lot of people rather than by one single authority. Therefore the terms are not weasel.  Falcon 03:13, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)

I will clean it up when I have time; the havoc you're wreaking on some other pages has me currently tied up at the moment. They were weasel terms and will continue to remain so because they are not direct quotes from anyone, and express a POV. DryGrain 05:08, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Removed NPOV tag, I fixed the glaring POV, although it still needs work. DryGrain 13:06, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Why is the factual accuracy of this article disputed? Falcon 17:10, Apr 28, 2004 (UTC)

Look at the page history. DryGrain 07:46, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * There is no justification anywhere in the page history. Besides, it should have been mentioned on the talkpage.  History is no place for arguments.

Wow. I wasn't aware that vampirism was quite so popular in Antarctica. Are there any actual sources for the more outrageous claims made in this article? -Sean 08:39, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Of course it is not altogether that prevalent there; the word "nonexistant" is certainly not filler. The statement is meant to say the belief is unheard of anywhere outside of N. America and Europe, more or less, w/o POV.  There are indeed sources; Google will be able to find a myrad of them.  Falcon 23:13, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Facts?
None of the references cited support any of the bizzare specific claims made in the article (i.e. "sang"/"psi" or the "astral" and "elemental" vampires); they just support the fact that such a thing as the subculture exists, which is already covered in the vampire article. Searching for these things turns up only a tiny number of hits on Google, all on message boards and personal webpages. If you can't find references for these claims, I don't think they should be included at all. -Sean Curtin 03:41, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

comments from Cleanup

 * It was a very contentious VfD debate. I think the consensus, such as it was, among the "keep"ers was that some stripping and huge clarifying that this is a fantasy/belief/cult/make believe thing is ok.  Not sure, but it was just barely a keep by my count. I think people wanted outside references added, too. Good luck to all you brave souls who undertake it. Geogre
 * It would be a waste of anybody's time doing anything to this, only one place for it, and it's not on Wikipedia Giano
 * I'm pretty saure that several of the people who voted "Keep" never looked at the section of vampire that makes this article redundant. If this page is still on cleanup by September it should be placed back on VfD. -Sean Curtin
 * While I don't participate or personally know anyone that participates in such, I'm aware that it is a real phenomenon, sophisticated enough to be called a subculture. I think it does deserve an article, and more than the little snippet on vampire. Let me clean it up, and then see what you think. PMC

 * It would appear to me personally (by way of general observation) that, though a subculture is in fact clearly present, it is not particularily unified by any stretch. That statement should probably be worked into the article somehow.  Anyway, why should we not replace the small, undetailed section in vampire with a link to this detailed article on the same subject?  It doesn't appear that this article is patent nonsense, or advertising, or consistantly biased one way or another, or a particular waste of space (not that any would be saved by deletion).  Therefore, I see no reason whatsoever to list it again on VfD, where the debate would be a repeat of the last one and just as inconclusive.  I would also like to protest the use of the amount of time an article spends in cleanup as an indicator for deletion.  Falcon 03:11, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

How the hell did this get past VFD?
I mean, seriously. MERGE this unholy piece of group-vanity to vampire or vampirism or, if people this this has any socio and psychological impact, move a brief summary of it to mental illness, describing symptoms, causes and other psychological information. In itself, this article serves no good whatsoever apart from sub-cultural vanity from people who think they are important. Quite a few people claim they are God. They are not a "sub-culture", they are known as a bunch of fcking idiots. Same thing for people who claim they are vampires. I'm ASHAMED that worthless crap such as this is allowed to remain in a respectable encyclopedia. :: DarkLordSeth 01:44, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Seth, are you kidding me? This is real. This is massive. This *happens*. You may think they're crazy (And I am inclined to agree with you) but there are tons of people who think they're vampires, and this is how they live. This is more important and certainly more prevalent than (for example) Megatokyo will ever be. The 'Pedia documents real-life phenomena, and this is certainly one. "Vampiric lifestyle" gets upwards of 10K hits on Google. "Vampire lifestyle" gets nearly 400K. That's 410K hits on Google. "Megatokyo" only gets 290K.

 * The article may well suck. It looks like it could use a little cleanup, yeah. But it is valid encyclopedic material and it belongs in this encyclopedia. User:Premeditated Chaos 07:30, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * There are also tons and tons of people who claim they are God. Are these people important or relevant? No, just like those losers who claim they are vampires, they are irrelevant and unimportant from most perspectives. Just because a large group of people is stupid doesn't mean it's actually important or relevant information. At best this can been seen as a sociological article about influence of Bram Stoker's literature on the modern day society, but that'd still leave it unworthy of it's own article, especially considering most details here are already available in the vampirism article.

 * Also, google hits are not the sole answer to the question wether an article should be allowed to live. It's part of the answer, yes. In this case, it's a part of the answer that says yes. But is this subject not written already, elsewhere? Isn't it a kind of sociological disorder? Isn't there plenty of info on vampires and vampirism already? Or enough details about sub-cultures in general? Besides, is this really relevant? Vampirism has been disproved; it's physically and biologically impossible to be a vampire which we know thanks to modern day science and biology. This article is a summary of existing work bound together by lies, ignorance and escapism from modern society. Salvage what can be salvaged, then pound a big wooden stake of Deletion through this. :: DarkLordSeth 04:08, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Seth, just because it scares yoiu or offends you in some way doenst mean you should try to make it go away, casue it wont go away.

Gabrielsimon 21:27, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's no major subculture of people who think they are God. While I'm inclined to agree that there's something wrong in these people's heads, 410,000 Google hits is notable. The large amount of material in this article would cause a lot of trouble if merged to another article. And finally, it sounds like you have a problem with an article about people who believe things that are false - sorry, that's not how Wikipedia works. Nickptar 21:48, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

besides, who's to say if its false or not. thier beleifs arent yours to judge. Gabrielsimon 21:52, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

from VfD
On 5 Mar 2005, this article was again nominated for deletion. See Votes for deletion/Vampire lifestyle for a record of the discussion.

Because this article has been nominated twice for deletion, and both times kept, I would like to request that the wishes of the community be respected. Please think twice before attempting to get this page deleted yet again even though the verdict was to keep it.

civilitry
rude statemtns to not beong in articles, therafore i deleted one. Gabrielsimon 02:49, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * What you are removing is NOT a rude statement, it is an objective description of a possible explanation for certain people being in the lifestyle. You can't remove something that is NPOV just because you personally do not consider it flattering to yourself. Wikipedia is not a place for you to demonstrate your personal bias. DreamGuy 02:54, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

if thatst the case then why do you demonstrate your opinon in everything you post? othert the thqt, it IS about civillity, im sure people would post deletion edits if someone were to post something no matter how worded simmilar to " all crhistians are idiot-bastards" or something, and not just the christians, this is my reasoning for this deletion. (also that was mention, not use, of said anti christain sentiment, as an example only) Gabrielsimon 02:57, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is absurd. I wrote that statement into this article only after having found it (albiet in different words) in many other internet sources, and someone I happen to know who is very well associated with this sect has confirmed it. I am reverting this page to its previous version, and removing the NPOV flag because it has absoultely no rational justification whatsoever. I would greatly appreciate it, Gabrielsimon, if you would refrain from attempting to make the contents of articles more suitable to you personally or whatever it is that you are doing, even to the point of adding false information (re. your edits to Otherkin. Falcon 14:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

nothing i have ever posted here has been false or fictiuiscious. Gabrielsimon 11:39, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * There was no NPOV tag, so that's not what you removed. You removed a cleanup tag. Cleanup is all about writing style and so forth. The article is in serious need of improvement in that respect, so I put the tag back. DreamGuy 22:47, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Settle the debate
To end this aggravating edit war about who ascribes poor interpersonal skills, why doesn't DreamGuy show us where he gets his facts. (I'm not saying I doubt him; I'm not taking any position whatsoever in this war.) Nickptar 23:10, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm not the one who originally put it in there... See above, User:Falcon Kirtaran put it in there. I'm just putting it back because the editor removing it is doing so for highly biased reasons that blow NPOV totally out of the water. DreamGuy 02:03, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Okay, so GabrielSimon, what's your evidence? Nickptar 02:18, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

im saying that its not right to judge someone elses socual skills or pass around genrealizations such as the poor socail skills statemnt as if they were fact, its unecoming of an encyclopdeia.

i dont mind it being thee with the " some say" bit, but sa if it was true it doesnt belong. specially since withouthte " some say" bit its POV Gabrielsimon 03:42, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The "some say" bit is included in the text that precedes AND follows the characteristics being listed. Specifically:
 * "This "species" is variously ascribed a number of identifying characteristics, [...] Note that not all "vampires" are said to have all of these characteristics, or even believe that some of them actually exist. It should also be noted that most of these characteristics are ascribed to the "species" by members of it themselves."
 * Thus your complaint is totally without logical basis. DreamGuy 05:34, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

rude comments about any thing or species do not belong in an encyclopedia. as ive said before, if soeone made a page here and said " all christains constantly try to indoctrinate everyone they meet" you would have issue with that,. hence, im have issue with the rude commment about the social skills which i do not beleive belongs in an encyclopedia.

Gabrielsimon 08:35, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

i do not find this persoinally insulting, for i am ot affilliated with the lifestyle, to thereafore, how can it be my point of view? its simply rude to say things like that about anyone. Gabrielsimon 17:59, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But it's not POV to say "Some say X" if that is true, and rudeness/offensiveness is not a concern for an encyclopedia (provided that statements are true and NPOV). As to whether it's mainly said by members of the lifestyle or people outside... if either of you wants to assert either way, you should show some evidence. Nickptar 18:53, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

mu point is also that without evidance it is conjecture and hearsay. hence deletion bait. Gabrielsimon 18:55, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This ENTIRE ARTICLE is nothing but unsourced speculation from vampire lifestylers. If you want to complain about that, then the article should be deleted and redirect to the main Vampire article. The list that the comment User:Gabrielsimon wants to censor is on ALL came from the same source. You can't remove one as lacking in evidence without removing the entire thing. But of course it's not a question of source, really, because the editor only wants the one part that has any mention of the fact (which is the most commonly-held belief and thus should really be the majority of the article instead of a token phrase here and there that even that this guy wants to remove) these people aren't really dealing with reality all that well. This is like doing on article on schizophrenics and claiming that the voices in their heads are really real and then getting upset and removing one sentence that says some people consider them mentally ill. This whole article is a mess (see votes for deletion and other comments above) and would need major rewrites to get to NPOV and Wikipedia standards. The one thing we are arguing about is the only even somewhat NPOV statement in the entire article. DreamGuy 23:59, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

saying that vampires or vampire lifestlye followers have poor social skills is pov, weather you admit to it or not, therafore it has been and ahall be removed from this page no matter how many times you re add it, becasue it is opinion, and oopinion has no place in an encyclopedia/  the rest of the article is based on facts presented  in varoious places. therafore it is keepable. in fact if social skills are to be mentioned it is a fact that mythical vampires have extra orgianaily good social skills, and so it standx to reason that vampire life style ists would try to emulate that, if anything. stop reverteing this article based on your opinion, mr "dream guy"

Gabrielsimon 00:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

One, trying to emulate good social skills doesn't mean you have them. (I wish it did though. :-P) Two, for the N+1th time, stating someone else's opinion, AND SAYING THAT IT IS THEIR OPINION, is NOT POV. Sorry to yell, but that's how Wikipedia works. This edit war is starting to seem really silly, and you've both broken the 3RR in the last 24 hours. Please, if you want this settled, BOTH of you provide some source for what you claim are facts. Nickptar 02:13, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

he keeps trying to piut it in like its fact, undisputable, whiich is wrong. Gabrielsimon 07:18, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Again, the info comes from User:Falcon Kirtaran, see above where he explains it. And it's not being presented as fact because the text surrounding it makes it 100% clear that it's being presented as the opinion of some members in the lifestyle. Read the thing in context. I'm getting really frustrated with one editor who is barely literate and pushing his opinions everywhere trying to chastise other people (and, worse, who vandalizes pages but insists upon labeling the restoration of text by another previous editor as "vandalism" even though it does not fit the meaning of that word by any stretch of the imagination) and another editor asking for proof when it has just as much proof as EVERYTHING ON THE PAGE. The only person objecting to it is someone who has yet to make an editor anywhere on this encyclopedia that wasn't immediately removed by editors following Wikipedia policy as far as I have seen. Other editors here put it in. This stupidity needs to end know, because if Gabrielsimon is having such a fit over such a minor thing he's going to positively explode as soon as anyone actually goes through and cleans the article up some so it's not so insane and crazy. Again, see above where people voted to remove it completely. For Nickptar to pretend that this is something only I am doing is sheer nonsense. DreamGuy 09:12, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

the more you speka like that, the more you proove your lack of knowledge, just leave it be. Gabrielsimon 09:16, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Here you are (rather incoherently) trying to claim I lack knowledge, and yet you were the one earlier saying that nobody should be rude? It sounds like what you really mean is you feel free to be rude to people when you want to be, but if someone dares diagree with you they are rude for it. Rather hypocritical if you ask me.

 * But, anyway, for everone else following along this controversy, here's what an outside view had to say when Gabrielsimon tried complaining about me on another page:

 * Gabrielsimon is insistent that this attribute of so-called followers of the vampire lifestyle should either be deleted or preceded by "Detractors and critics believe that they may have". But this longer phrase is ridiculous here: that detractors, critics, and/or anybody believe(s) that something is a characteristic is not a characteristic. Moreover, syntax/semantics aside, it's pleonastic: we've already read that this species is variously (not universally) ascribed various characteristics. Perhaps Gabrielsimon hasn't tried hard enough to read and understand what's written.

 * That was by User:Hoary on Vandalism_in_progress (yes, Gabrielsimon apparently so completely does not understand what vandalism means that he tried to report me for it). Hoary solidly agrees that Gabrielsimon is wrong, so much so that he came to the article to make the exact same edits I was making earlier.

 * So, as I was saying, and as the admins there agree, my side is already proven (and is really self-evident from the way the section is worded), and Gabrielsimon's side is completely bogus. Does that settle it for you too, Nickptar, or are you going to still be asking for evidence? Do you follow Hoary's logic above? DreamGuy 12:22, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

All right, I think I see it now. Sorry, DreamGuy, for not assuming good faith on your part. It's true that if Gabrielsimon can't provide some good reason (besides some NPOV phantom) for keeping what he wants to add, there's no need to have it there, because it's semi-redundant. I've edited the section to make it more clear that these characteristics are ascribed by various people (the word "variously" isn't in my vocabulary, sorry). Still, I've got to say it would strengthen the case to not add that phrase if someone could actually show a case where a self-described vampire makes the claim about social skills. The primary burden of proof is still on Gabrielsimon, though, and the default position is not to have his phrase. Nickptar 14:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

why should the burden of proof be on me, i say its not true, and until he prooves it to be,m that is how it is, he should try to proove that it is true. also, i have not seen any adamins agreeing with him. Gabrielsimon 00:11, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * If you haven't seen an admin agree with me then you simply are not paying attention. See above where I quote one. See the page history where one makes the changes I made earlier and told you you were wrong. See your talk page where they tell you you are wrong. See the page with the false vandalism report you tried to file on me and their responses. Someone would have to be pretty blind to miss all of those. DreamGuy 01:39, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

 * err admins have no special powers or rights when it comes to content.Geni 02:49, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I didn't say they did, I was just pointing out that what Gabrielsimon said was wrong. Admins and other editors on all sorts of articles agree tht Gabrielsimon is out of line with his constant efforts to say that werewolves and vampires really exist and that nothing he considers less than flattering should ever be said about them. It's a matter of consensus and policy (largely NPOV but also things like No original research. DreamGuy 03:01, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry it's just there have been missunderstandings over this in the past.Geni 03:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

i know hey have no speciual powers for content, but its sill rude to say that any one group has socical skills of a good or bad variuety has no place in an encyclopedia.

Gabrielsimon 03:14, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * please don't delete other users comments.03:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't know whether you don't get my repeated comments on the subject or if you're just not listening, but while saying that a group has bad social skills is POV, saying that other people say that a group has bad social skills is not; it's documenting an objective, verifiable fact. Wikipedia works this way.
 * By the way, compliments to Geni on the new, clearer introduction to the 'characteristics' section.
 * Nickptar 12:24, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I cannot imagine the purpose for which there are so many reversions against peoples' edits on this page. It should, however, be noted that this activity must stop.  Stating that most people within the sect believe that their members have particular charactersitics is CERTAINLY not POV; they themselves identify it and Wikipedia is not expressing an opinion.  The sect members are.  User:Gabrielsimon's edits on the Otherkin page should be sufficient to definitively ascribe a particular characteristic to him, however, that being the inability to make factual edits to such pages as these.  Naturally, a claim that these are also species must be rejected without evidence, and no further attempt should be made to bias this page any way, whether in favour of or against the sect that is its topic.  If this absurd edit war continues, I will apply to an administrator to have this page protected and/or someone cited for vandalism.  Enough, already!
 * I would also like to make note that the facts presented in this article, regardless of nature, are referenced from multiple sources, both online, from personal experience and from the knowledge of others. Any contest against them, whether for correction or deletion, should be supported by similar evidence'.  Wikipedia is NOT a place for personal beliefs, essays or research, and the sooner this is learnt the better.  Please stop sabotaging this article!
 * Falcon 19:39, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

i am not the one sabotaging the article, im just trying to make it clear that most of the vampire lifestyler types do not have bad or ppoor or lacking social skills, therafore, it should not say they do,  it is also my contention that it is a rude thought to ascribe such things, weather they be fact or not in an encyclopdeia do not belong.

Gabrielsimon 23:10, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * It does not in fact amke a comment about all of them; only that some believe that they are afflicted thus. Therefore, it is not POV.  Falcon 04:14, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * We are interested in facts. We are not going to remove information just because people find it rude. I mean we include stuff that violates some people's regious principles so I fail to see why we should not include stuff that some people find rude.Geni 23:23, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * im just trying to make it clear that most of the vampire lifestyler types do not have bad or ppoor or lacking social skills -- Are you making this clear (saying it in a persuasive way), or are you simply reiterating it?
 * therafore, it should not say they do -- The article does not say that they do. The article says that it is widely said that they do. If [X] is a proposition and if you are unable to distinguish between (a) "[X}" and (b) "It is widely claimed that [X]", you should not be editing Wikipedia (or anyway its English-language version).
 * it is a rude thought to ascribe such things, weather they be fact or not in an encyclopdeia do not belong -- I am unable to parse this sentence. Do you mean "Even if these assertions are factually correct, they do not belong in an encyclopedia"? If so, you're wrong. It's a matter of fact that the autistic have poor social skills, and entirely proper for this (or something like it) to appear in an encyclopedia. But this is beside the point here, as nobody has claimed here that "followers of the vampire lifestyle" have this or that characteristic.

 * If you're interested, my own belief is that: (i) this article is about a small number of attention-cravers, perhaps mixed with a smaller number of nutballs; (ii) the subject isn't WP-worthy, and (iii) the whole thing should have been killed off by VfD. It's intermittently amusing that some people here take it seriously, but all in all it's rather sad. -- Hoary 00:55, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

 * There is no question that this sect in fact exists. They are also well-documented.  Whoever said that wikipedia couldn't have articles on cults and alternative faiths/beliefs/whatever?  VfD is for articles about gibberish, vanity pages or articles about topics so trivial they affect no more than a dozen people.  This is not one of those, and therefore it should stay.  Falcon 04:14, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * A dozen? The last time I heard, it was a hundred. If they're well-documented, where is this? The external links from the article hardly lead me to take it seriously. Any coverage in (non-tabloid) newspapers, (non-sensational) books, etc.? But OK, it has passed VfD, so it stays. Now let's approach it (like anything else) sceptically. -- Hoary 05:05, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

standards of civillity Gabrielsimon 23:56, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * What coherent point (if any) are you attempting to make about standards of civility? (My own standards of civility include rereading ny comments via "Show preview" and trying hard to ensure that they make sense before hitting the "Save page" button.) -- Hoary 00:55, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

it is not proper to claim that any one group or people therin have good or bad social skills, such data has  no place in an encyclopdia since its almost always a point of view. im sure you would have a problem with it if they said something simmilar to a less contraversial group. im also sure you should bite your tongue with the tone your taking, but thats just me on that last part. Im so very sorry if it offends you that i have nerve damage and can not type very well, therafore i have installed dictation software, so that it works better, but its on the fritz at times. You should ask about someone before judging how they type and judging how they think is most likly out of the question. Gabrielsimon 07:44, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * 'Here's what the article says: A number of sources have described this "species"; however, these descriptions are far from identical. Some of the attributes that have been ascribed to this "species" are: . . . Poor interpersonal skills when dealing with mainstream individuals or broader society. What's the problem with stating that some sources describe these people as having poor skills? Incidentally, I have no problem at all with something similar being said directly (and not ascribed to unspecified sources) about a group that's controversial in a different way, autists. And much worse is said straightforwardly and informatively (and not pejoratively) about the less controversial effects of, say, Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. -- Hoary 02:19, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC)


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User talk:Sillylizard

You may find some of the links in the following message useful     20:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Sillylizard


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Tomás Hirsch

Tomás René Hirsch Goldschmidt (born 19 July 1956) is a leftist Chilean politician and businessman. He was the Together We Can Do More pact candidate for the 2005 Chilean presidential election, winning 5.4% of the vote.

Biography
Hirsch was born in Santiago, Chile, to Jewish-German parents. His mother, Lysa Goldschmidt, arrived in Chile before World War II, while his father, Jorge Hirsch, arrived in the country escaping from German Nazi concentration camps.

During his youth, Hirsch became interested in Silo, an Argentinian writer and leader of a movement that inspired the founders of the Humanist Party.

In 1974 Hirsch began studying Industrial Civil Engineering at the University of Chile, but dropped out in 1978. Later he began working on his brother's photo company.

Hirsch is married to Juanita Vergara and has two children.

Political life
In 1983 Hirsch helped found the Humanist Party, the first political party legalized (1987) under the dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet, and was president of the party from 1994 until 1999. He was also one of the founders of the Coalition of Parties for Democracy (CPD) and served as Chile's ambassador to New Zealand between 1990 and 1992, under the democratic government of Patricio Aylwin. In January 1993, the Humanist Party withdrew from the CPD.

Hirsch unsuccessfully ran for a seat in the lower house of Congress in 1997 and for President in 1999, representing the Humanists.

Hirsch was a leading spokesperson for the victims of the Pinochet regime - when Pinochet was under house arrest in London. He would often appear on international news cables demanding that Pinochet be sent to Spain and be put on trial for crimes against humanity. He criticized the government of Ricardo Lagos for pushing for Pinochet's release from detention claiming that Pinochet would never stand trial in Chile where he was protected by the Chilean Army and the Chilean political establishment. Hirsch has also been a major critic of the course the Coalition of Parties for Democracy has taken and was cynical of the euphoria created by the election of the socialist president Michelle Bachelet claiming that her government meant a continuation of the same for most Chileans.

Hirsch has a highly revolutionary conception of Chilean society and his party calls for systemic changes to the economy to create a more egalitarian, truly socialistic and democratic society for all Chileans. He is also a supporter of the cause of the natives of Chile – the Mapuches. Some of his views are close to those of the Communist Party of Chile (with which his party formed an electoral front in the coalition Juntos Podemos Más (English: Together we can do more) in the Chilean presidential elections of 2005. Hirsch has been arrested on a number of occasions by the Chilean police for taking part in demonstrations in support of political causes.

title: Tomás Hirsch


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Swan Islands, Honduras

The Swan Islands (Islas Santanilla or Islas del Cisne, named Islas de las Pozas by Christopher Columbus in 1502) is a chain of three islands located in the northwestern Caribbean Sea, approximately 95 mi northeast of the eastern coast of Honduras, with a combined land area of 3.1 km2.

The islands are uninhabited except for a small permanent Honduran naval garrison stationed on Great Swan Island that maintains the Islas del Cisne Airport.

Geography
The Swan Islands lie within the exclusive economic zone of Honduras and belong to the Islas de la Bahía department of Honduras. They consist of three islands:
 * Great Swan Island (3 km long, 2 km2)
 * Little Swan Island (2.4 km long, 0.5 km wide, 1.2 km2)
 * Booby Cay (90 metres long, 70 m off the southwestern corner of Great Swan Island, <0.01 km2)

Rosario Bank and Misteriosa Bank are 130 to(-) north of the Swan Islands and separated from them by the >5000 m deep Cayman Trench.

History
The Swan Islands were discovered by Christopher Columbus in 1502 and named the Islas de las Pozas. In the 18th century, they were renamed the Swan Islands, after Charles Swan, the captain of the Cygnet, whom pirates captured and forced to join them.

American entrepreneurs first started exporting guano as a fertilizer in the 1840s. The American-owned, New York-City-headquartered "Atlantic and Pacific Guano Company" was established in the 1840s and started exporting fertilizer, based on guano collected on the Swan Islands. In 1856, the United States apparently claimed the islands. In April 1857, John Valentine White claimed the islands, by virtue of the Guano Islands Act; later that year, he transferred all interest in these islands to Charles Sterns, Joseph W. Fabens, and Duff Green. Messers Sterns, Fabens, and Green incorporated the Atlantic and Pacific Guano Company, which issued 50,000 shares at a price of $100 each for a total capitalization of $5,000,000 in 1858. The company even issued currency, signed by William H. Whitfield, in 25-cent, 50-cent, and one-dollar denominations on June 1, 1867, to facilitate commerce on the islands.

Subsequently, a chemical company bought the islands but became insolvent. Captain Alonzo Adams sailed there in 1893 and took possession of the islands; in 1904, he assigned ownership to the Swan Island Commercial Company. That company leased part of Great Swan Island to the United Fruit Company, which grew coconut palms and set up a wireless radio relay station for servicing their Caribbean fleet but eventually abandoned the lease. The Swan Island Commercial Company provided hurricane monitoring data from 1928 to 1932. The U.S. Weather Bureau staffed a hurricane weather station on Great Swan from 1938 onward, but only during hurricane seasons.

During World War II, both the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Weather Bureau stationed personnel on the island. In the late 1940s until 1949, Swan Island became a U.S. Department of Agriculture animal quarantine station for the importation of beef. In 1914, what now is the National Weather Service (NWS) and, later, the Federal Aviation Agency (FAA) set up meteorological and communication assets on Swan to support aeronautical services and hurricane-prediction activities. The FAA departed Swan Island in the 1960s, leaving the NWS all assets and responsibilities.

Honduras claimed these islands from 1923, asserting that, because Columbus had discovered the islands while sailing for Spain, they should be owned by the nearest Spanish-speaking country. Both the United States and Honduras claimed the Swan Islands until the United States dropped its claim under the Guano Islands Act. A treaty was signed on November 22, 1971, and clear title by Honduras became effective September 1, 1972. The ownership of the island had long been in dispute. The Sumner Smith family has always maintained their ownership and, apparently, did have some standing in the U.S. courts. Nevertheless, the American government chose to abandon its claim despite this standing (ref. D S Platt, et al., NOAA-NWS). The islands gained notoriety in the early 1960s from the activities of Radio Swan, which began broadcasting in May 1960 during the preparation for and, later, the conduct of the Bay of Pigs Invasion of Cuba. The station was removed from the islands in the late 1960s, its main transmitter then transferred for use in the Vietnam War.

In 1965, Bellaire, Texas, police questioned a former Bellaire High School student about his role in a teenage "army" dedicated to freeing "oppressed countries," the Houston Chronicle reported. The group, called the Kononiers, had been in existence for about five years, the student told the newspaper, and was armed through a series of burglaries of the Deep River Armory store. The weapons were taken to the Addicks Reservoir area, where they trained for combat. The youths were training for "Operation Liberation Swan Island" off Honduras.

In 1987, the Los Angeles Times reported that the CIA and other American governmental agencies had a covert training facility on Swan Island for Nicaraguan Contras. In 1989, the president of Honduras, Rafael Leonardo Callejas, declared the island a protected wildlife refuge.

In October 1998, Hurricane Mitch moved through the area with winds of 180 mph.

In 2001, Swan Island Development, LLC, of Brooksville, Florida, announced plans to develop the Swan Islands by 2010, in partnership with the government of Honduras. Luxury real estate and hotels, valued at five billion dollars, were envisioned, with a main city named Cygnet. In 2004, Swan Island Development also announced plans to establish a human stem-cell research center. , neither has occurred.

In July 2023, President Xiomara Castro of Honduras announced plans to build an isolated prison on the island for up to 2,000 gang leaders.

title: Swan Islands, Honduras


text: File:FMBTD.jpg

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Broken China

Broken China is the second and final solo album by Pink Floyd keyboardist Richard Wright, released on 7 October 1996.

Overview
The album is a four-part concept album based on Wright's then-wife Mildred's battle with depression. Two songs, "Reaching for the Rail" and "Breakthrough" feature Sinéad O'Connor on lead vocals, with Wright singing elsewhere. The album was recorded in Wright's studio in France. Broken China was Wright's first solo record since 1978's Wet Dream and the last before his death in September 2008.

Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour played on "Breakthrough", but the approach for the song was changed later on, and Gilmour's performance was not used on the finished release. On the DVD David Gilmour in Concert, a guest appearance is made by Wright, who sings "Breakthrough" accompanied by Gilmour and his band.

The packaging has artwork by Pink Floyd's regular designer, Storm Thorgerson, and Peter Curzon.

Musicians

 * Richard Wright – keyboards, vocals, programming
 * Anthony Moore – computer programming and arrangements, 'telephone vocal' (2)
 * Sinéad O'Connor – lead vocals (12, 16)
 * Tim Renwick – guitars
 * Dominic Miller – guitars
 * Steven Bolton – guitars
 * Pino Palladino – bass guitar
 * Manu Katché – drums, percussion
 * Sian Bell – cello
 * Kate St. John – oboe, cor anglais
 * Maz Palladino – backing vocals

Design

 * Storm Thorgerson, Peter Curzon – sleeve design
 * Tony May – photography
 * Jason Reddy – computer
 * Julien Mils, Finlay Cowan – artwork

title: Broken China


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User talk:B'man

I remember your Sonic Adventure 2 and MSR lyrics FAQs, and the DC "6 billion players" site. Welcome to Wikipedia! :) --Nick R 20:39, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

o_O You remember 6bp.com, wow. Such a long time ago. I actually recently updated the MSR lyrics shizzle; I'd missed out so much it wasn't even funny. B'man 03:57, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Last man (association football)

The article Last man (association football) has been proposed for deletion  because of the following concern:
 * The only referenced information in this article is covered adequately in Professional_foul

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. LukeSurlt c 15:00, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Last man (association football) for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Last man (association football) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Last man (association football) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. LukeSurlt c 11:46, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

title: User talk:B'man


text: User talk:84.9.79.83

title: User talk:84.9.79.83


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Tall Ships America

Tall Ships America (TSA), previously known as the American Sail Training Association (ASTA), is the largest sail training association in the world and a founding member of Sail Training International. From starting with a handful of vessels sailing the New England waters, Tall Ships America has grown into an international institution with more than 250 tall ships and sail training vessels representing 25 different countries and navigating all the world's oceans. TSA was founded on April 3, 1973, by Barclay H. Warburton III, following his return from the Tall Ships Races in Europe in 1972 where he joined the USCGC Eagle with his brigantine Black Pearl as the first US vessels to participate in the races.

Mission
A nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization, Tall Ships America's mission is to
 * encourage character building and seamanship through sail training
 * promote sail training to the North American public
 * support education under sail.

Tall Ships America organizes the Tall Ships Challenge, a series of sail training races, rallies and maritime festivals that rotate every three years around
 * 1) the Atlantic Ocean
 * 2) the Pacific Ocean
 * 3) the Great Lakes and coasts of North America.

In 2016, the Tall Ships Challenge series was held in the Great Lakes. In 2015, the series was held on the East Coast of the United States with stops in Cape Charles, Virginia, Philadelphia, PA/Camden, NJ, Greenport, Suffolk County, New York and Portland, Maine.

Member vessels
member vessels include: • Argo (yacht)

• Balclutha (1886)

• Bounty (1960 ship)

• Californian (schooner)

• Corwith Cramer (ship)

• ARM Cuauhtémoc (BE01)

• KRI Dewaruci

• Harvey Gamage (schooner)

• Hawaiian Chieftain

• Irving Johnson (ship)

• Joseph Conrad (ship)

• Kaisei (ship)

• Lady Washington

• Lynx (tall ship)

• Ocean Star (schooner)

• Picton Castle (ship)

• Pilgrim (brig)

• Pride of Baltimore

• R. Tucker Thompson

• Robert C. Seamans (ship)

• Roseway (schooner)

• Star of India (ship)

• Stavros S Niarchos

• HMS Surprise (replica ship)

• Swift of Ipswich

• Tole Mour

Awards
Every year TSA awards several prizes including:
 * lifetime achievement
 * leadership
 * sail trainer of the year
 * volunteer of the year
 * Tall Ships Challenge awards

title: Tall Ships America


text: User talk:201.252.116.84

title: User talk:201.252.116.84


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Pat Butcher

Pat Evans (also Harris, Beale, Wicks and Butcher ) is a fictional character from the BBC soap opera EastEnders. She was played by Pam St Clement from 12 June 1986, just over a year after the show first aired, until her departure on 1 January 2012. Pat was also portrayed by Emma Cooke in a soap 'bubble', Pat and Mo: Ashes to Ashes, delving into her past with sister-in-law Mo Harris (Laila Morse), which aired in 2004. The character was killed-off on 1 January 2012, shortly after being diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. Her funeral was on 13 January 2012. Pat was one of the longest serving characters on the show, appearing for 25 years and six months. She returned, along with other women from Ian Beale's (Adam Woodyatt) past, in a concussion-related dream sequence for a Children in Need special on 14 November 2014. She also made a return as a hallucination for Peggy Mitchell's (Barbara Windsor) death on 17 May 2016.

Backstory
Pat is the youngest of four children. Her sister, Joan, had Down's syndrome, and was sent to a mental institution when Pat was four. Joan married Michael, who also had Down's. Their mother, Lydia, disowned Joan and claimed she had died at the age of 22.

After leaving school at 15, Pat unsuccessfully tried to become a model. She and her best friend, Mo Porter (Laila Morse), entered a beauty contest in Clacton at 16, winning the title of "Miss Butlins". There she met Frank Butcher (Mike Reid), who was holidaying with his girlfriend, June Simmonds. Frank was besotted with Pat, and they slept together. Frank was the first of what would be many lovers in Pat's life, and they began a love affair. However, June became pregnant with Frank's child, so Frank married her, breaking Pat's heart. Pat and Frank would meet up from time to time, and on each occasion the affair would be rekindled, but Frank would not leave June. Pat began working for shady club owner Tony Cattani (Vas Constanti), who got her involved in prostitution. This shamed her family, particularly her brother Jimmy (Alex King), and their relationship suffered. When Pat discovered that Mo, now Jimmy's wife, had slept with Tony, she informed her brother; Mo denied it, and Jimmy subsequently disowned Pat. While working as a prostitute, Pat was offered more money to work for up-and-coming gangster Johnny Allen (Billy Murray). Pat then worked as a well-known woman of the underworld for many years.

Pat embarked on numerous relationships. She had flings with Den Watts (Leslie Grantham) and Kenny Beale (Michael Attwell), both restless men who were unwilling to settle down with her. Kenny's younger brother Pete (Peter Dean) proved more reliable; he married Pat when he thought she was pregnant by him—a false alarm which his mother Lou (Anna Wing) believed was Pat's ploy to trap her son. While they were together, Pat had two sons, David (Michael French) and Simon (Nick Berry), who Pete believed to be his. Yet Pat could not settle down and embarked on an affair with Brian Wicks (Leslie Schofield). Pete eventually left her and they divorced. Soon after this, Pat married Brian and he took on responsibility of her two sons. They left Walford due to David's feud with fellow schoolboy Derek Branning (Terence Beesley/Jamie Foreman) who terrorised the entire family because his sister Carol (Lindsey Coulson) had a relationship with David to the point where he got her pregnant. They moved to Romford, and Pat stayed with Brian until 1986, when he started physically abusing her.

1986–2016
Pat comes to Walford in June 1986 to tell Pete that he is not Simon's father. Many arguments erupt, but Lou steps in to convince a devastated Pete that Simon is his. When Pat starts work as a barmaid in The Queen Victoria pub later that year, she finds that Lou thinks Simon is Kenny's son, following an affair, and she is adamant that Pat should keep this secret and not upset her close-knit family. However, Pete's twin sister Pauline Fowler (Wendy Richard) overhears and tells Pete everything.

Pat lives up to her promiscuous reputation and, with encouragement from Mehmet Osman (Haluk Bilginer), ends the year prostituting herself. Animosity between Pat and Pete continues. When Pat is assaulted in February 1987 — left unconscious and close to death in the middle of the Square — Pete is prime suspect in the police investigation. He is later cleared when the real culprit, the Walford Attacker, is caught.

The arrival of Kenny in 1988 brings the question of Simon's parentage to the fore once again. Pat tells Simon and the Beale brothers that she does not know who the father is, adding further confusion. She also says that Den is a possibility, but later rules Den out and demands that he has sex with her, or she will tell people that he is the father. That July, a dying Lou pleads with Pat to finally tell Simon the truth. Pat reveals that Brian, the man that Simon believed to be his stepfather, is actually his biological father.

Following Lou's death, Pat forms a close friendship with Pete's second wife Kathy Beale (Gillian Taylforth). The pair were formerly foes, but find themselves having had a common bond, with the dominance of both Lou and Pete in their lives. As such, Pat gradually elevates herself as a surrogate mother and close relative of Pete and Kathy's son Ian (Adam Woodyatt).

Frank comes back into Pat's life in 1987. June has died and he and Pat reunite, taking over the tenancy of The Queen Vic. Pat has a hard time in her role as the stepmother to Frank's children, particularly with his troublesome youngest daughter Janine (Rebecca Michael). On 22 June 1989, Pat and Frank marry in Cockney style by driving out of Albert Square in a horse-drawn cart.

By the end of 1989, the Butchers have moved from The Queen Vic to the B&B across the Square, which Pat runs while Frank opens a used car lot. Despite family and marital problems, Frank and Pat are happy until 1992 when they begin to struggle financially, forcing them to sell the B&B. Pat tries to turn their fortunes around by starting a cab firm, PatCabs. However, disaster strikes on Christmas Eve that year, when Pat — doing a short run for a regular customer — hits a teenage girl who later dies from her injuries. She struggles to cope with the guilt, particularly when confronted by the girl's mother. When breathalysed, she is found to be just over the limit. When Pat appears in court several months later, she is imprisoned for six months.

Pat returns in the autumn, but by then the Butchers are in financial ruin. In desperation, Frank pays local hardman Phil Mitchell (Steve McFadden) to torch the car lot in an insurance scam. When this goes wrong and a homeless boy dies, Frank has a breakdown and in April 1994, he abandons Pat and his children, leaving Pat destitute and heartbroken. Eventually, Frank's eldest daughter Diane (Sophie Lawrence) brings news that Frank is alive and so Pat begins getting on with her life.

Local car dealer Roy Evans (Tony Caunter) arrives in Albert Square and is attracted to Pat, but early attempts to woo her get him nothing but refusals. Pat later softens, and goes on a cruise with him, although she makes it clear that sex is not on offer. Her carnal abstinence is a blessing for Roy, as he later admits he is impotent and can offer nothing more than platonic love. Pat is relieved to discover that, for once, a man wants something from her other than sex.

In November 1995, Roy moves in with Pat, but on Christmas Day, Frank returns. Pat finds it hard to contain her rage and emotion when she sees her estranged husband, but despite him stirring up old feelings, she chooses to stay with Roy and they marry in 1996. Pat and Roy weather money problems, Roy's ill-health, and his depression, brought on by his jealousy of Pat and Frank's shared past, which almost makes him commit suicide in 1998. Pat finally convinces Roy that it was him she wants, although she finds it hard to let go of Frank completely. Frank goes on to marry Phil's mother Peggy (Barbara Windsor), but Frank begins to have second thoughts upon realising that he still loves Pat.

In 2000, Pat and Frank go on a holiday with their respective spouses, alongside fellow couple Terry Raymond (Gavin Richards) and his wife Irene Raymond (Roberta Taylor) in Spain. During this time, Frank seduces Pat, and she tries to end the affair; however, when Frank turns up on her doorstep with no clothes and a comedy bow-tie on his neck, she realises that she had never stopped loving him either. The duo continue their affair, and eventually decide to elope to Manchester. The couple are due to depart on Guy Fawkes Night in November 2000, when Pat has second thoughts.

However, it is too late, as Peggy has already found Frank's farewell letter, and shames the cheating duo by reading it to the entire pub before slapping Frank and Pat. Peggy throws Frank out, and he leaves Walford alone. Roy is initially willing to forgive Pat, and explains that certain things have got to change, but his son Barry (Shaun Williamson), alerts him to a suitcase containing massage oils, along with fishnet stockings and a red Basque, which Pat was planning to take with her for Frank. Enraged by her betrayal, Roy throws Pat out and she is left penniless and homeless. Roy later asks Pat for a divorce.

In February 2001, Pat decides to join Simon in New Zealand, though Roy follows her to the airport and tells her that he wants to be with her, despite Barry's objections. Grateful that Roy has given her a second chance, Pat is adamant that she will not mess things up again. This starts off well throughout the rest of 2001 and the entirety of 2002, during which Pat reunites with her stepson and Frank's son Ricky (Sid Owen) in the process.

However, in March 2003, Roy discovers that Pat knew about Ricky having an affair with Barry's wife Natalie (Lucy Speed) not long ago. Roy believes that Pat has again chosen to support Frank's offspring over his own, and the stress causes Roy's second and fatal heart attack. Roy dies intestate, leaving Pat bereft and homeless, as Barry — beneficiary of Roy's estate — evicts her, despite Pat's efforts to support Barry and help rebuild his life after the double blow of his marriage break-up and the death of his father.

Pat moves into a bedsit. Janine (now played by Charlie Brooks) marries Barry and plans to con him out of all of his money and possessions. The day after the wedding, Janine admits everything and pushes Barry down a cliff to his death. She later brags about it to a disgusted Pat and starts to bully Ian's estranged wife Laura (Hannah Waterman), who is living with Pat at her house. When Laura accidentally falls down the stairs and dies, Janine is arrested on suspicion of murder. Pat, who is Janine's alibi, lies to the police, and so Janine is implicated as revenge for Barry's death.

Pat is given a job at the bookies by the square's crime kingpin Andy Hunter (Michael Higgs) in 2004. They develop a rapport, until Pat finds out that Andy has arranged for his employee Paul Trueman (Gary Beadle) to be killed in retribution for attempting to entrap him to the police. She is nevertheless surprised when Andy is murdered by his gangland rival Johnny Allen (Billy Murray) in 2005, before later finding out that Andy has left her his house in his will. It is at this point that it transpires that Pat and Johnny are old acquaintances, as she used to work for Johnny in the past. She immediately suspects him of killing Andy, but Johnny convinces her otherwise and the pair attend Andy's funeral.

However, Pat eventually learns from Johnny's henchman Jake (Joel Beckett) that in the end Johnny did kill Andy, and has also ordered Jake's brother Danny (Jake Maskall) to murder Sharon's step-brother-turned-husband Dennis Rickman (Nigel Harman).

Towards the end of 2005, Pat is summoned as a witness for the prosecution at Janine's trial in December that year. She is later surprised to see that Frank has returned, and the pair greet each other. They later have sex, but Pat soon realises that his primary motive is to convince her to alter her testimony at Janine's trial. At first, Pat refuses, to the point where she tells Frank that Janine killed Barry, but eventually relents. Afterwards, Frank tells Pat that he will always love her and the two reconcile, before parting ways one last time.

In February 2006, missing male company, Pat begins flirting with Paul's adopted father Patrick (Rudolph Walker), who is married but unable to resist the chance of a casual fling with Pat. Soon enough, Patrick's young assistant Stacey Slater (Lacey Turner) sees them together and tells Patrick's wife, Yolande (Angela Wynter) about it; this ends the affair, and causes Yolande to resent Pat as a result.

In August 2007, Pat discovers that her mother lied about the date of her sister Joan's death. She and a kind stranger, Len Harker (Christopher Ellison), break into Joan's care home and learn that Joan died only a few years earlier after marrying a man with Down's syndrome. Pat is touched to discover that Joan often spoke of how much she loved her.

In March 2008, Pat announces she is leaving Walford for Spain, but gets news that Frank has died of throat cancer. She is devastated, and despite initial feuding, she and Peggy support each other through Frank's funeral. Pat opts to remain in Walford when her granddaughter Bianca Jackson (Patsy Palmer) turns to her for help soon after, moving in with her four children.

Having reconciled with one grandchild, Pat severs her bond with another when she discovers Ian's stepson Steven Beale (Aaron Sidwell) is in hiding with his runaway half-sister, Lucy Beale (Melissa Suffield). Pat threatens to tell Ian the truth, and is hit by a car driven by Roxy Mitchell (Rita Simons) whilst trying to apprehend Steven. She spends time in hospital, where Steven attempts to smother her before she can tell Ian. His plan fails, and Lucy returns to Ian.

Pat suffers a heart attack in January 2010 amidst increasing animosity with Janine. It is revealed that she has an underlying condition and needs a pacemaker, but refuses to have the operation. Janine persuades Pat to have the pacemaker fitted, and she makes a full recovery.

Disgusted with the litter in Albert Square, Peggy and Pat both decide to run for the council. They are interviewed by journalist Harvey Freeman (Martin Jarvis), but eventually they both pull out of the election. Harvey secretly woos them both, causing various rows between the women when they find out. They both finally unite against Harvey and humiliate him in punishment.

Pat and Peggy's friendship strengthens, so Pat is hurt when Peggy leaves Walford without saying goodbye, upset to lose her best friend. When Pat discovers that Janine stabbed herself in order to frame Stacey after making the discovery that she killed Peggy's late former husband Archie (Larry Lamb), she denounces Janine once more and goes to New Zealand to visit Simon. She returns in April to find that Bianca is in prison and that her adopted daughter Whitney Dean (Shona McGarty) is missing, although she is relieved when Whitney returns home shortly after.

When Pat discovers that Ricky and Janine's maternal grandmother, Lydia Simmonds (Margaret Tyzack and Heather Chasen), is staying with Janine, she believes that Janine is only interested in Lydia's inheritance, and Janine jokingly admits this to Pat, although a close bond soon forms between Janine and Lydia. When Lydia dies in the night, Pat comforts Janine, but later turns on her, believing that she killed Lydia to get her money, despite the fact Janine had already seen the will and knew that Lydia was donating her money to charity.

When the police take Janine in for questioning over Lydia's death, Janine believes it was Pat who phoned them, although it is later revealed that it was Whitney's half-brother Ryan Malloy (Neil McDermott) who made the call. Pat is still adamant that Janine murdered Lydia, which causes an emotional argument. When it is discovered that Lydia has changed her will and left her whole estate to Janine, Pat persuades Lydia's son Norman (George Layton) to contest the will. He initially agrees, but after Janine agrees to share the money with Ricky, Pat convinces Norman to change his mind. Although Norman likes Pat and wants to see her again, Pat is oblivious to this.

When Pat discovers that Simon is about to lose his home in New Zealand, she fails to get a loan to help him because of her age. Norman offers to help, and organises a loan for her. After speaking to her great-grandson Liam (James Forde) about it, Pat decides she likes Norman; they kiss, and she asks him to stay. The next day, Norman tells Patrick that he regularly earns commission organising loans for people.

Patrick then warns Pat about this, and once Pat finds out that the terms of the loan mean that if she misses a payment she could lose her house, she rejects Norman, tells him to leave, and says she never wants to see him again. Derek Branning subsequently arrives in Walford and recognises Pat. She runs away, but he chases her and forces his way into her home. Pat is fearful of Derek, and he taunts her, asking Pat if she is still a prostitute. Derek also tells her to tell David that he has not forgotten about their fight.

When Roxy asks Pat about Derek's past, Pat confirms that he is dangerous. Pat struggles to keep up the loan repayments on her house, and counts on Ricky's bonus money to cover the debt. When Ricky returns from Dubai, he reveals that he has lost all his money, so Pat explains that they will lose the house by the end of the week if a payment is not made. A desperate Pat turns to Janine and asks for money. Janine gives her £50,000 without hesitation, but insists on Pat using the house as collateral, although this does not thaw the animosity between the pair.

In the build-up to Christmas 2011, Pat gets acquainted with Jake and Danny's cousin Michael (Steve John Shepherd), who is conveniently also Janine's boyfriend. They find themselves sharing an enemy in Derek, as the latter begins to spark trouble in the square. When Michael spots Derek and Liam together, he forms an allegiance with Pat over their hatred of him and they proceed to call his probation officer to check up on him, infuriating Derek. He later confronts Pat, angrily threatening her.

Shortly after this, Patrick drops into Pat's and finds her collapsed on her kitchen floor. Pat is admitted to hospital, having suffered a pulmonary embolus, and the doctors run some tests, but she discharges herself secretly, telling Ricky she has been allowed to go. Janine then goes to see Pat, telling her she is moving the repayment deadline to the following day after an argument with Bianca. Pat rings Simon to find out whether he can pay her the money, but is left horrified when he tells her his brother David slept with his wife.

As her stress increases, Pat's chest pains continue, and Patrick persuades her to return to the hospital. There, she is diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, which has metastasised to her lungs, bones and abdomen. Pat refuses all further palliative treatment, and returns to Walford to be with her loved ones, sharing one last drink with her family and friends in The Queen Vic.

On New Year's Day 2012, Pat's health rapidly deteriorates, and she is visited by old friends, including her longtime friend Dot (June Brown), as well as Ian. Janine soon arrives to evict the family, after Pat is unable to pay all her debts back, but soon realises that Pat is not faking her illness and is devastated. Visiting her sick stepmother, Janine confesses to Pat that she is pregnant, and Pat convinces her to keep the baby, after which the two finally reconcile.

Later, David arrives to see Pat, but the pair argue; David leaves, and is persuaded to return by Carol. David tells Pat that he is sorry for the mess he has made of things over the years. David then tells Pat that he forgives her for all the times she let him down when he was a child. Despite admitting that she is scared, Pat is able to make peace with her son moments before she ultimately succumbs and dies. Everybody on the Square mourns for Pat the next day, and Norman comes back with a bunch of flowers for her, not knowing that she has already died. Pat's funeral, which is paid for by Janine, takes place, and is attended by many Albert Square residents. Simon turns up with flowers after the funeral has ended, and lays them down at her grave.

In September 2013, Peggy returns and visits Pat's house to say goodbye, leaving a bottle of gin on her doorstep. Nearly three years later, in May 2016, Peggy reappears in the square with terminal cancer that has spread to her brain. Peggy begins hallucinating the smell of cigarette smoke, which then manifests to a vision of Pat. As the two sit and reminisce about past memories, Peggy decides to commit suicide in order to prevent her family watching her deteriorate. Pat promises not to leave her side as she does this and watches sadly as Peggy commits suicide via an overdose.

Creation and development

The character of Pat was conceived by the creators of EastEnders, Tony Holland and Julia Smith, in 1984. Although not one of the serial's original protagonists, Pat is referred to in the character outline of Pete Beale, who appeared on-screen in EastEnders' first episode, as written by Smith and Holland in their book, EastEnders: The Inside Story: "[Pete] married very young to Pat—it turned out to be a total disaster. They were too young, rushing into a difficult life for all the wrong reasons, and truthfully, [Pat] was a vicious shrew...[Pete] divorced [Pat] and married Kathy when he was 24...His two sons by his first marriage are nineteen and twenty and he hardly sees them..."

Pat was first seen on-screen in June 1986, over a year after the show debuted. The character's introduction was the result of a deliberate policy "to add an extra edge of toughness to the show." Prior to this point, Holland and Smith had begun to feel that EastEnders was starting to get "a bit soft". During a meeting with scriptwriters, the programme makers decided to try to recapture some of the soap's "original grittiness that seemed to be getting lost in its own success". Thus the character of Pat was introduced to "add a new hardness to the atmosphere."

Pat, played by actress Pam St Clement, was initially introduced on a three-episode trial basis. She was given an extensive backstory, heavily intertwined with various focal characters within the serial, including all of the Beale and Fowler family, who mostly disliked her, particularly her ex-husband Pete Beale (Peter Dean), her son Simon Wicks (Nick Berry), and Pete's mother Lou Beale (Anna Wing). In addition, she was an old friend of Angie Watts (Anita Dobson), a former lover of Angie's husband Den (Leslie Grantham) and, as a supposed former resident of Walford, she was known to many of the other regular characters such as Dot Cotton (June Brown) and Ethel Skinner (Gretchen Franklin).

The character's initial three-episode stint marked the beginning of what has been described as one of the soap's most complicated storylines, the paternity of Simon Wicks. Pat immediately "threw a spanner in the works" by telling Pete that he was not Simon's biological father, as she had previously claimed. After causing havoc Pat then disappeared; however, she was reintroduced later in the year, returning as a regular character, barmaid of The Queen Victoria public house. St. Clement had reservations about returning to the soap. In 1995 she told The Independent, "I couldn't envisage how this character, who creates absolute havoc everywhere she goes and is not at home with herself or with anybody else in the Square, could possibly fit in". However, she was persuaded to continue by producer Julia Smith, who said: "'We've only seen one layer of the onion skin—the defensiveness—now we'll start to peel away more and get to the vulnerability that lies behind it'."

Friendship with Peggy Mitchell
In 1998, Pat and her friend Peggy develop a feud with each other after Frank had an affair with Peggy. An EastEnders insider said: "Viewers will see the lot - tears, screaming and fighting. The romance has brought the studios to a standstill," said the insider. "There are TV screens around Elstree where staff can see what is being filmed and it has literally stopped people in their tracks. For the two days it was being filmed, staff on the lot talked about nothing else. Frank and Peggy are two of the show's strongest, most popular characters and the writers have hit on the idea of bringing Pat, another of the show's big names, in on the plot. Devoting a whole episode to just two characters is a tactic which has proved successful in the past. We have used it for Michelle and Lofty and also for Dot Cotton and Lou Beale. St. Clement and Barbara are both first-class actresses and everyone at the BBC feels they will carry the explosive episode off with flying colours."

The scenes showing the characters' first fight had to be cut in order to be broadcast before the 9pm watershed; they were reported as "powerful" and "set to be one of the most impressive episodes of all time". Barbara Windsor told the Sunday Mirror: "The writer didn't want a namby- pamby cat fight between two silly girls. We were throwing chairs and bottles and the adrenaline was at a high. When I saw the programme I couldn't believe how good it was. Pam and I were really proud."

Departure and death
On 7 July 2011, it was announced that St. Clement had quit EastEnders. The actress revealed that she wanted to try other things, saying "I have enjoyed 25 and a half wonderful years in EastEnders creating the character of Pat but feel it's time to hang up her earrings. Leaving the EastEnders 'family' will be akin to a bereavement. But I'm looking forward to the other work and life opportunities that I will have the time to pursue." Pat would leave later that year, and executive producer Bryan Kirkwood said her departure would be a "fitting" storyline. Pat's son David Wicks returned for her departure storyline.

Pat was killed-off in the special New Year's Day episode. On 31 December 2011, it was announced that Pat would be getting her own exit theme. EastEnders music composer Simon May reworked the tune to create "Pat's Theme". An EastEnders insider told Digital Spy: "It's only right that as we say goodbye to the iconic Pat Evans we pay tribute to such a character with a wonderfully touching special theme tune. As we say farewell to a legend of over 26 years, we welcome in what will be a truly remarkable New Year in E20 by adding the Olympic Park into the opening title sequence."

Barbara Windsor, who played Peggy Mitchell, predicted that Pat would be "sorely missed" by fans. Speaking of Pat's exit, Windsor told This Morning: "Oh, I can't bear it - Pam! And she will be sorely missed - more than I was missed in the show, because she could go to anybody - any family she could go into. I am devastated. She definitely wanted to leave, but I don't know if she wanted to be killed off - that's the chance you have to take," Windsor continued. "I was positive that I was going to go up in a load of flames with The Vic - I thought that was going to happen, but of course it didn't. With Pam, I was very, very surprised, because she could always go back. But she's accepted it now and she'll have a new life."

St. Clement stated that she did not want her character to die, but said her final scenes were "fantastic". St. Clement commented: "Simon Ashdown had this idea for the character, which fitted in with her history in a sense," she explained. "They said, 'This is how we'd like it to happen - we think it's a fitting end and tribute to the character'. And as far as I can say, I read the script and I thought, 'Oh, this is fantastic - it's every actor's dream'. And I have to say, it also challenged me in a way that I hadn't been challenged. It was moving, it was challenging and it was a script that I needed to get my teeth into. The script, the performances, the direction - it all turned out to be a fantastic ensemble piece, if you like… Everybody was pulling in, everybody was doing the most wonderful performances and it was fantastic."

St. Clement said she was "moved" by the Farewell Pat tribute. Speaking on Daybreak, St. Clement explained: "I wasn't going to watch [the final episode] with anybody - I was going to record it and then watch it in a darkened room somewhere, where I could be terribly critical and jump about saying, 'Stupid woman - why did you play it like that?' But everybody said, 'Oh no, sit down'. I said, 'I don't want to disturb you all' - but I did make myself behave! And I was quite dispassionate, actually. The strange thing is, after I read the script, I was very moved by it. But as soon as I started working on it, I think everybody did start getting quite emotional - but I couldn't. Even about myself leaving - people in the cast would come up and say, 'How do you feel?' and I'd say, 'I can't go there, I can't think about that, because the work's not finished'. The strange thing is, the only thing that moved me was the Farewell Pat programme. Which is strange, but I suppose that was personal in a sense."

St. Clement also explained the experience of filming her final episode: "It was a great challenge, that script," she commented. "I looked at it and thought, 'Oh, heck, how do I give light and shade to something where somebody is actually dying?' And some of the scenes could have been interpreted as being somewhat similar with Janine and David. So I had to make them different - but I had to make them different within the confines of the illness."

It was later confirmed that EastEnders would air a special tribute episode to Pat after her funeral episode on 13 January 2012. An EastEnders insider commented: "Pat is EastEnders - she was the heart and soul of the show and bosses have pulled out all the stops for her funeral. Not only is the episode extra long, with plenty of nods to the iconic lady, it really is the end of the earring. We are hoping that everyone dons their biggest and tackiest earrings to mark one of the saddest days in the history of Walford." Co-star Lindsey Coulson said that Pat's departure was a "real-loss". She told This Morning: "They were really difficult scenes to play, because we didn't want Pam to leave," Coulson explained. "So apart from not wanting to lose the wonderful character of Pat, we were mourning the loss of Pam. You don't see everybody all the time [at EastEnders] at all, and sometimes you can go for months without seeing somebody. And most of the time you're on this big wheel and when people leave, you go, 'Oh, that's really sad', but you get back on. But actually Pam is a real loss up there."

Former EastEnders cast member Martin Kemp said that the decision for Pat to leave was the "right" thing to do. He told Bang Showbiz: "I still watch EastEnders from time to time. I did quite a few scenes with Pam, I remember we spent three or four days locked in a cellar once so we had quite some scenes. She's a great actress, I'm sure she'll go on to other things. I think she's making the right move, it's nice to spread your wings a bit. Although viewers will miss her I don't think anyone is bigger than the show, it doesn't matter who comes or who goes. When I was there I always thought the star of the show was and always will be the pub, The Queen Vic. Everything else is an extra around it."

Reception
In 2020, Sara Wallis and Ian Hyland from The Daily Mirror placed Pat fifth on their ranked list of the best EastEnders characters of all time, calling Pat a "Former beauty queen and prostitute whose character was as bold and attention-grabbing as her ear rings" and noting that she was "involved in many memorable slanging matches with Peggy including the classic pair of "You bitch! You cow!" slapping altercations that took place ten years apart". In 2021, Angie Quinn from MyLondon called Pat one of the "icons who are no longer on the square" and noted how fans missed her. Joe Anderton of Digital Spy called Pat a "gay icon".

In popular culture
The character of Pat has been spoofed in the cartoon sketch series 2DTV. The impressionist who provided the voice is Jan Ravens, who has not only provided the voice of Pat, but also acted the part on-screen in several episodes of the BBC's Big Impression, which devoted a regular sketch to various EastEnders characters. Ravens also played Pat in the other impressionist series, Dead Ringers. The Impressions Show with Culshaw and Stephenson contains sketches in which impressionist Debra Stephenson portrays Pat in situations, often with Coronation Street character Ken Barlow, played by Jon Culshaw.

Pat was also the frequent target of jokes in Harry Hill's TV Burp, usually alluding to her former prostitution and alleged sexual promiscuity. Comedian Lee Evans once used Pat as one of his jokes in his tour Live at the O2 Arena. In the first episode of Series 3 of The Inbetweeners, Jay gets his ears pierced with large round earrings and is mocked by his friend Simon Cooper, who calls it the "Pat Butcher look". The character Pat Butcher, portrayed by Jim Howick in the BBC sitcom Ghosts, is named for the EastEnders character.

title: Pat Butcher


text:
Roger Gaudry

Roger Gaudry, (December 15, 1913 – October 7, 2001) was a Canadian chemist, businessman, corporate director, and rector of the Université de Montréal.

Early life and education
Born in Quebec City, Quebec, he received a Bachelor of Science (B.Sc.) in chemistry in 1937 and a Doctor of Science (D.Sc.) in chemistry in 1940 from Université Laval. A Rhodes scholar, he attended the University of Oxford from 1937 to 1939.

Career
From 1940 to 1945, he was assistant professor of chemistry in the Faculty of Medicine at Université Laval. He was appointed associate professor in 1945 and professor in 1950.

In 1954, he became assistant director of research at Ayerst, McKenna & Harrison Ltd. in Montréal From 1957 to 1965, he was director and vice-president from 1963 to 1965. From 1965 to 1975, he served as the rector of the Université de Montréal.

He was a member of the board of directors of the following companies: Connaught Laboratories Ltd., CDC Life Sciences Inc., Bank of Montreal, Alcan, Hoechst Canada, S.K.W. Canada Ltd., Bio-Recherche Ltée, Corby Distilleries Ltd, and St. Lawrence Starch Co. Ltd.

From 1983 to 1995, he was president of the Fondation Jules et Paul-Emile Léger, a Canadian charity which supports groups that help restore human dignity to those who have been rejected by society.

After his death in 2001, he was entombed at the Notre Dame des Neiges Cemetery in Montreal.

Honours

 * In 1954, he was made a Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada.
 * In 1968, he was made a Companion of the Order of Canada.
 * In 1980, he received an honorary doctorate from Concordia University.
 * In 1992, he was made a Grand Officer of the National Order of Quebec.
 * In 1996, he became the recipient of the José Vasconcelos World Award of Education
 * In 2003, the main pavilion at Université de Montréal, Roger-Gaudry Building, was renamed in his honor.

title: Roger Gaudry