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Talk:Iglesia ni Cristo/Archive 1

This is an archived version of the talk page. For the current version please see Talk:Iglesia_ni_Cristo.

Deletion of Catholic Answers Link
I believe that the logic behind the deletion of the Catholic Answers link is flawed. Lbmixpro deleted this link, thinking that it is quite similar to the other links that are posted.

Catholic Answers provides a thorough walkthrough of the 'con' with Iglesia ni Cristo.
 * Out of curiosity, how is it different from Examine INC? I've seen both and IMO, Answers is like a condensed verison of Examine. --LBMixPro(Holla back!)

That is why I'm adding it back to the article. I do not consider my contribution as vandalism for the link has been there for quite some time already.

 * note - I have no problem with the 'Catholic Answers' link being there. I did not delete it and would not do so.  I simply have a problem with having two links to the same 'con' site, which is EXACTLY what we have by linking TWICE to the Bereans' site...which I deleted again today from the 'con' list.  For LBMixPro, again, what is the sense in linking TWICE to the same 'con' site?  Is that proper and professional?  gcessor

 * It's all about categories. The Bereans forum is linked under the "Discussion Forum" sub-section; independent of the Bereans' con link. Unless the forum's rules indicate the discussion should only be for one side or the other, I don't see why else it should be deleted. --LBMixPro(Holla back!) 06:08, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * As I stated below, the ONLY information on the Berean's 'con' site that is not duplicated by other 'con' sites is (1) the "countries penetrated" list, which is quite outdated and much less accurate when compared to the "worship schedules and locations" link, and (2) the "how to start a conversation with/witness to an INC member" sections - and these sections are by their nature opinions and do not on their own merit warrant a link from an encyclopedia.--gcessor71.32.86.239 10:49, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Network 54 is the oldest and most popular INC discussion board on the Internet AFAIK. It is a great source of views from both sides, and how each reacts to them. In case we find another INC related forum, maybe we should replace the unmoderated forum with it. --LBMixPro(Holla back!) 06:08, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * Here's another moderated forum - not as active as the 70213 forum, but much friendlier, no insults, profanity, etc.: http://www.network54.com/Forum/281698
 * Good point. It looks a lot more organized than the 70213 forum as well. I don't see why we shouldn't use it instead... --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 13:33, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * btw, I changed "Network 51" in your paragraph to "Network 54".--gcessor71.32.86.239 10:49, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Oops. I must had Area 51 in mind when I wrote that. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 13:33, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

I have proposed dispute resolution between myself and gcessor for this article

 * Glenn, As a user of the Wikipedia- you have the obligation and the duty to follow all binding decisions put forth by Wikipedia administration. As I cannot reach a consensus with you regarding this article, I will step up and try to put our disagreements before a third party before our disagreement turns into something more uncouth than it already is.

 * And Instead of complaining to me, why not use the Wikipedia dispute system to see who's really correct in this matter? If you decline to use these means and want to stick to having this article conform to your own personal "conditions," then you have no business here at the Wikipedia --Onlytofind 04:25, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution#Discuss_with_third_parties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Third_opinion

 * I for one also dispute the neutrality of the external links section (and marked it as such). We have almost reached a point that the article can be considered NPOV, but recent changes (too many con sites that suggests a motive to discredit the INC, edits on the disclaimer that portrays the INC administration in bad light) led me to believe that this article still needs a lot of work. Ealva 21:02, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Which parts of the disclaimer do you claim is not factual? The administration has requested for members not to post information about the Iglesia ni Cristo online unless approved by them and to refer anyone with questions to Church officials, which even I feel is fair. I put that there to inform people why there is a lack of "pro" sites, and that for anyone who is interested to get the fairest view of the INC, they can contact the appropriate sources and compare the messages from the pro and con sites equally. --Onlytofind 05:05, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Having two INC members and a former INC member being the most active editors to this article will probably lead to an edit war and definitely strong disagreements. In my humble opinion, I feel that Glenn and ealva are trying to make this article biased towards the INC, while Glenn and ealva believe that I am trying to bias this against the INC. Putting our differences aside, I'm sure we can all agree that we need a neutral voice to moderate the content in this article, which is why I've proposed intervention from Wikipedia administrators, and I hope that ealva and Glenn Cessor can join me in this effort. --Onlytofind 05:03, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

 * As a former member (inductee), no matter how neutral I may be, I may be percieved as an anti-bias. I suggest an outside party -- most perferably a sysop -- outside of the main INC article editors come up with a decision. --LBMixPro(Holla back!) 07:34, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Article_content_disputes

ATTENTION GLENN CESSOR

 * You have reverted this article once again to your own POV even though the link section has been deemed fair by numerous sources. Keep in mind that the Wikipedia is not to promote your own view of the Iglesia ni Cristo and be written under "your conditions." I have already been more than generous by inviting an outside source to determine the neutrality of this article, and if you are not willing to work within the rules of the Wikipedia, I will not stop until you are banned from editing this article or the Wikipedia.--Onlytofind 20:50, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
 * i for one do not see the fairness you say exist on this article. Remove the bereans link as per glenn request - emico
 * "Welcome to Wikipedia. I suggest you take a look at the rules regarding a Neutral Point of View, because judging from your user page and your first contribution about the Bereans, you are not even trying to hide your lack of objectivity, and your edits are also poorly written.If you want to take this article and other articles (ex.The Bereans) in a non-neutral direction, I will revert your edits and alert the Wikipedia sysops about your misconduct.'''--Onlytofind 18:31, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I did, and I find that you are not following them, an example is your persistense on having more that one three cons versus one pro. Are you catholic by any change, you seem to equate one to three quite often. And by the way, your objectivity would be admirable, if you had any. I guess your are the expert with regards to writting? Do you by any change evangelize on the web, just like a friar I know? I like my contributions on the Bereans because it is true I've enquired and did not get a response. Are you a berean too? What a big cry baby you're turning out to be.
 * Emico, you were stupid enough to get kicked out of the INC, and you think that your rabid defence of it online will somehow get you back inside. I truly pity you. --Onlytofind 02:38, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Welcome to Wikipedia, Emico. When it comes to talk pages, it's highly recommended you sign your post with four "~" signs a the end. This way people know who actually written that post without needing to compare document versions in order to find out. Also, do not write comments on the actual article itself ("Now this is fair. one pro, one con", for example). It only makes the article look very sloppy. If you look at it, there's actually two links on pro, regardless if one is a mailto. I'll now revert your edit, and open a vote to what we should do about the links. --LBMixPro(Holla back!) 21:07, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think the article is fair either, but the article as it stands before is a good compromise. The article as it stands now is not. Again, a quick comparison with articles about other religions will give you a clear idea:
 * Roman Catholic Church
 * Seventh-day Adventist Church
 * Lutheranism
 * Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
 * Threatening gcessor with a ban just because he shares divergent views from Onlytofind is a little harsh. IIRC, he was the one who took this article to near-NPOV. One needs only look at the article and discussion history to prove my point. Ealva 03:29, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Ealva, as Wikipedia users, we are both required to follow the rules set down by the sysops. That is why I am requesting your support in using the Wikipedia dispute process to have the neutrality of this article decided by a third-party. I've already posted my neutrality claim using the links above, and you can post yours there also. We are never going to reach a consensus regarding this article, and I believe that it is only fair that a 3rd party arbitrate this article towards neutrality. --Onlytofind 18:49, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Both you (Onlytofind) and gcessor are editing the external links section from what you perceive as NPOV. So I don't see either of you following this so-called "rules set by the sysops". Nobody then has the right to threaten the other whose only fault is having a different POV. Ealva 16:00, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Con link removal vote (Closed)
In light of recent events, I'm now issuing a poll in which I hope all Wikipedia users who read this article participate. The main dispute is how "con" links outweigh "pro" in the external links section, causing an NPOV dispute, with the Bereans link as major subject matter. The links page as it stands is 2 pro to 4 con. I strongly recommend nobody edit the link section until the vote is over, and any edit to it is subject to revert. Some users believe there should be an equal number of links, while others feel a maximum of three for each category. (Note: The links section was changed during the voting period between  06:28, May 19, 2005. and it's current edit. "Delete One" may now have different meanings to different voters. If you have voted before, please include a view to view ratio such as 2 pro to 3 con, or 1 pro to 1 con) in order to clarify your vote.)

What should we do with the External links section? This vote will be open until midnight GMT, May 23, 2005.

 * Delete one (2 pro to 3 con) According to Wikipedia's rules, the links section is not a link repository and should be reduced to a suggested 3 link per sub-section listing. So 4 is definetly too many for the 'con' section. Removing links deprives the user of otherwise informative content outside Wikipedia. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!)
 * Delete only one. It is hardly the fault of the "con" side that the pro side is somewhat opposed to websites, however it is true that Wikipedia is not a links repository and the "con" side should be duly reduced to three links.  Rlquall 04:40, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
 * One pro to One con. It's not a question of fault, but of fairness. And delete those garbage link to network54. Emico 05:53, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
 * One pro to one con. Emico said it best - it's not a question of fault, but of fairness.  If we are as wrong as detractors believe, then one 'con' site should be enough to prove their point anyway.Gcessor--71.32.86.239 14:33, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete one (2 pro, 3 con). If I could find real "pro" links in the future, I want it 3 to 3, which seems like a good balance. I agree that those network54 / berean forums are garbage and should go away. Ealva 16:31, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
 * keep all. The page on external links I found did not seem to mention three as an upper limit and four is not excessiv IMO. Dejvid 16:58, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep All. In previous efforts to settle this matter, third-party sources have decided that the links were acceptable. And I agree that it's not about fault, but of fairness. Wikipedia rules state that the NPOV is about providing all points of a story, not only negative or favourable parts of the story. Much of the information on the con sites can be fairly included in the article in accordance with Wikipedia rules, but due to the dearth of pro-INC sites, I have refrained from doing so. As a sign of good faith and fairness, I have listed reasons why there might not be many pro-INC sites on the Internet, and have stopped short of encouraging people to contact the INC directly if they want to hear information supporting the INC's doctrines. I think this is an excellent way to solve our dilemma, and promise to abide by the final decision agreed upon by the sysops. --Onlytofind 21:07, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Resolution
Consensus is in favor of the reducing the con section to three links. Three say remove one link, two say keep one link for each category and two say keep as is. The decision to reduce the con section stands, and I'll now remove the Con link to Bereans. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 07:58, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

 * I have to say that the Bereans link seemed to me the most informativ of the antis and I say that as someone not remotely sympathetic to the Bereans POVDejvid 10:49, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I have to say that you should read my vote carefully. I am saying the forums. Ealva 15:32, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the forums should stand, after all, they are places where people can discuss the INC, and I'm pretty sure people have enough sense to wade through some of the truly absurd posts from both sides there. --Onlytofind 20:33, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Why, Glenn, Why

 * After the vote was put up, a moratorium was proposed on edits until the vote is over. Glenn disobeyed the democratic process and restored the page to "his standards.". Glenn, please explain to us why you did that in light of the poll and the moratorium?--Onlytofind 00:20, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I am highly dissapointed with you Glenn whoever edited the page. I wanted the links section unchanged so to make it clear what people are voting for. Now I can't determine whether or not "Delete One" means reduce to 3 or 2. Your edit has made matters more confusing, and I hope whoever voted clarify it by including a view to view ratio as suggested at the top of the vote. The original edit stands through Sunday. All edits will be reverted, and subject to the 3RR and Edit War rules. Whoever violates this be reported to a sysop as article vandalism. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 02:22, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * FYI, LBMixPro, I believe if you'll check the edit times, you'll find I made that edit before I came to the talk page and saw that you're holding this poll.--gcessor 13:29, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Gcessor: Please let this page be until this is decided. All of us should let it be until this is resolved.  I am all for fairness.  I think that once the number of links is resolved that we should address things like the Bereans' forum, but let's try to do one thing right at a time.  I think that you can see from my history on this page that my efforts have been only about fairness and NPOV to the best of my ability.  I am more than willing to defer to your vast knowledge of the group as an active and leading member, but this doesn't mean that you should always be editing the article whenever it disagrees with your point of view, although I realize that one person's POV dispute = another's "factual error".  At one point I thought that we were really, really close to a good NPOV article, which apparently was satisfactory to no one other than myself.  Please note that unlike many here, I am neither a member nor a former member of INC any my only interests are fairness and learning – I have no "axe to grind".  (I remain in favour of deleting one con link in the interest of fairness as before.)  Rlquall 02:49, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Riquall, as I told LBMixPro, if I remember correctly, I made the edit before I saw that a poll was being requested.

Why, Onlytofind, Why
Can't you find where I called you 'illiterate', but keep saying that I have insulted you? Either provide the proof or retract your accusation! YOU made the accusation, YOU provide the proof. In fact, if you provide proof of even ONE obvious personal insult (and not a simple rebuke) that I have made against ANYONE among the Wikipedians, I'll leave! After all, that's what you want, isn't it? And it's not a wager since I'm not requiring anything of you - except proof of your accusation.--71.32.86.239 14:32, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Can you please get over the illiterate accusation for once? We've been over it redundantly.
 * No. Onlytofind made the accusation with no evidence, repeated the accusation with no evidence, and I will not let it go.  I will not allow someone to accuse me of something I have not done.  Accuse me of something I HAVE done, and I'll own up to it, take my lumps, and I'll even thank you for it (and I've done it before), but I will NOT allow a false accusation to go by unchallenged.--gcessor 06:11, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, do whatever you want his own user-talk page. That's what it's there for. Besides the fact that this talk page isn't the place for personal issues, it only causes the page to fill faster than it needs to be. If you wanna continue on the "illiteracy" subject, do it away from the INC talk page, so we can deal with INC article issues. Please. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 08:29, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd love to do so, but I can't until Onlytofind either provides proof of me having called anyone on the internet illiterate at any time...or realizes that maybe, just maybe he got confused, that perhaps he was called 'illiterate' by someone else, and his memory played a trick on him and he thought it was me. LBMixPro, you'd understand what I mean if you'd ever lost or nearly lost your career due to a false accusation...you'd become pretty thin-skinned to false accusations, as I certainly am.--gcessor71.32.86.239 21:04, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Onlytofind, are you listening? There is another way - unless you can provide proof that I've done so - you can save face and say you got me confused with someone else.  If you do so, you'll hear no recriminations from me, because I've done the same thing before - I'd be a hypocrite to give you any grief over it.  We're all human, Onlytofind, and your memory (though probably far better than mine) is not perfect.  When one has problems with his memory (as I do), one learns (1) not to lie, and (2) to keep by a strict code of conduct, for that's the only way that someone with memory problems can be sure whether he has or has not committed a certain act.  What do you say, Onlytofind?  Is it possible you have me confused with someone else?--gcessor71.32.86.239 21:04, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

 * You might not have called me "illiterate" straight to my face, but your little tirade clearly implied so, and anyone would either be biased or foolish to not see the underlying undertones of condescendence and insult. I'm sorry to hear what happened about your job though. --Onlytofind 07:05, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I didn't lose my job, but was within mere moments of losing it, and I kept my career (from which I have since retired with lifelong benefits) because of the honesty of a young man who had no reason to help other than to do the right thing.--gcessor71.32.86.239 14:42, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I honestly have no idea what 'little tirade' you're referring to, but believe me when I say that however you took it, it wasn't meant in a way to insult you or call you illiterate. While I may have an outstanding fluency in English, when I can speak, read, and write more than one language, then I'll call myself literate...but until then, I am less literate than most of this world since I am fluent in only one language.  I have held that opinion for over a decade, and I am absolutely certain that you're seeing a meaning that isn't there in this 'tirade' you're referring to...for 'illiterate' (or the insinuation thereof) is NOT an insult I would ever use.  To me, it's a word of pity, like for my two disabled foster children aged 10 and 14 years of age.  One of them has a vocabulary of ONE word, and the other none at all.  THAT, sir, is 'illiterate', and a pity.--gcessorgcessor 13:18, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

(stricken section deleted to save space)--gcessor 13:31, 20 May 2005 (UTC)--gcessorgcessor 13:18, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

 * God bless your family. --Onlytofind 03:02, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I have an idea about the real identity of discoverer though, he's probably the same guy who keeps using different aliases and runs the iglesianicristo.us site. If he's who I think he is, he's a fanatic, right-wing Catholic who's taken things much too far now especially when he made fun of the death of an INC member. --Onlytofind 07:36, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * huh! I hadn't thought of that - thanks!--gcessorgcessor 13:18, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I would be careful talking with him, especially since you use your real name, as he has said things advocating violence against INC members, which is truly disgusting and horrible. --Onlytofind 03:02, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

For LBMixPro, why is an e-mail address being counted as a 'pro' site, resulting in a count of 'two' pro sites to four con sites? How can an e-mail address possibly be counted as such?--gcessor 13:33, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Although its not a site, it's still a link regardless. As a matter of fact, it's the best pro link on there, since the only best way to get accurate information about INC is to contact the INC themselves. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 20:48, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Then why not put it in a separate section - for it is not a 'pro' site in any real sense. It is an e-mail address and that's all.  It belongs in a separate section.--gcessor 06:11, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Once again, although it's not a pro site, it is a pro link or in this case an external resource. It's a link which in essence is in favor of INC. It would be awesome if Manalo allows  to become active, so we can replace the email address. But at this point, it's the best thing we have to an actual site resource, since INC appearently doesn't allow unofficial sites from members. I thought at first if the email address was a good idea as a link, just like you are. But after some thought, I think it's good where it is.  --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 08:29, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay, good explanation. I'll live with that.--gcessor 20:38, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Glenn, I'm not asking you to leave, I'm just asking for an apology. Yes, I use the forums myself, but that's not my alias. If you want to know who I am, I asked you the same question about politics a while ago and got the same answer about "they didn't know what they're doing" from you. It seems that you want me to reveal my true identity here, which I am not foolish enough to do. But, I can clearly state to you that I swear before God that I am not discoverer from the forums. I would be ashamed to make a ridiculous statement like "The INC worships chairs." I've never chased you away from this website, heck, I even COMPLIMENTED YOU on the link below. I am very angry because you decided that you wanted the article to be written to "your conditions" even above the Wikipedia rules. --Onlytofind 20:19, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Here's your proof: [] Search for the text "Those with good reading comprehension." and "no authority to speak." LBMixPro confirmed that we had to pay for the magazine, why can't you apologize for your statements? I already apologized for accusing you of post-editing the page, let's try to keep a spirit of reasoned dispute and personal responsibility here. --Onlytofind 20:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Okay, I retract my suspicion of you and discoverer being one and the same, for discoverer would not have replied as you had. I also apologize, for disco's not someone I'd want to be associated with.  However, I will NOT apologize for calling you 'illiterate', because I NEVER have called you or anyone else on the internet illiterate.  I don't ever recall having called anyone in my life 'illiterate' in an insulting fashion.  Not once, not ever.  Prove me wrong, and I'll leave, period.--gcessor 06:16, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

 * And when it comes to payment for the Pasugo, for the SECOND time, we did so several years ago (the last time in early 2001 I think), but we do NOT do so NOW. You made the statement that we do so NOW, and I said we do not do so NOW, and I invited LBMixPro to call any of the locales on the list to verify what I said.--gcessor71.32.86.239 21:04, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Early 2001 was NOT several years ago. Glenn, make up your mind, what was it- early 2001 or several years ago? I would like for a neutral source to call and prove once and for all that my accusations were correct, which in turn would be fruitless, since I would hear endless grief from the pro-INC lobby if I tried to add that factual information back into the article.--Onlytofind 07:08, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That was four years ago. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines "several" thusly:  "2 a : more than one b : more than two but fewer than many c chiefly dialect : being a great many".  "Four" is "several"...but are you now going to refer to this as another 'little tirade' wherein I'm 'implying' that you are illiterate?--gcessorgcessor 13:18, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I APOLOGIZE TO GLENN CESSOR IN REGARDS TO PAGE EDITING

 * I'll take personal responsibility for accusing Mr. Cessor of editing the article after the vote started, which on further examination, he did not do. I still stand by my other statements and criticisms though. --Onlytofind 20:23, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you for that, but you still accused me of calling you 'illiterate'. I'll sweeten the deal even more - if you can show where I have EVEN ONCE called ANYONE ANYWHERE ON THE INTERNET 'illiterate', I'll leave Wikipedia.  Know why I have no problem issuing this challenge?  I've got a rotten memory, but I KNOW that I (1) insult VERY rarely, and (2) NEVER EVER use 'illiterate' as an insult (because I've long considered myself far less literate than the majority of Filipinos who speak two or more languages).--gcessor 06:11, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

A different route to resolution
The current dispute is on whether to keep the Bereans' 'con' site. I suggest it should be removed since the ONLY information on the site that is not duplicated on the other 'con' sites are (1) the "countries penetrated" section (which is very outdated compared to the "worship schedules and locations" link), and (2) the "how to start a conversation with/witness to an INC member" sections - and such sections by nature rely upon opinion and do not warrant an encyclopedia's link on their own merit. That would be equivalent to, say, including to a Republican web page that only has a section named "How to talk to a Democrat".--gcessor71.32.86.239 10:30, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
 * agree --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 13:44, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * The how to talk to a Iglesia ni Cristo member makes it quickly clear that Iglesia ni Cristo is has an Arian view on the Trinity. That was far less clear on the other sitesDejvid 22:28, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The other sites plainly say that we do not believe that Jesus is God, the 'same' God as our Father. That should be quite enough to label us with 'Arianism' in your view without ever having to say the word.--gcessor71.32.86.239 14:45, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

 * The INC holds Arius in high regard in its lessons and has referred to him as the only one with the truth compared to the Nicean Council. Why are the INC members insulted by a mention of Arianism? I don't know though, whether the INC would agree with Arius' teachings regarding whether Jesus Christ was born with his powers or given to them after birth. --Onlytofind 02:17, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Give it up, Onlytofind. You lost the vote - and what you do not understand is that we're not insulted by the 'mention of Arianism'...it simply doesn't apply to us because Arian also believed at the time of the Nicean Council that the Catholic church was the true Church.  And FYI, there was no belief in the 'trinity' at that time, for the Holy Spirit had not been 'officially' declared God by the Catholics until some 70 years later...and you are upholding this Catholic tradition.--gcessor71.32.86.239 13:23, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * But Arianism is normally applied to those who share the same view of the relationship between the father and the son. It doesn't normally imply sharing the same line as Arian as to which organization is the correct church. Has there been a vote to exclude the description of Arian or something?  I really didn't know it was so controversial.Dejvid 15:49, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * It is only controversial to those who want to use 'Arianism' as a label, insinuating that it is not true 'Christianity'. As I said, 'Arianism' cannot apply to us because he also believed at the time of the Nicean Council that the Catholic church was the true Church.  Because of that, Arian cannot be associated with the Church of Christ in any way.  It is this difference that those who want to throw around the 'Arianism' label simply don't understand.--gcessor71.32.86.239 20:28, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Discussion Forums

 * I would like to propose the restoration of the link to the Network54 forum 70210 which was recently deleted back to the discussion forum link section. I have seen topics posted there which were deleted on the INC member-moderated boards without explanation and is probably the most visited out of the INC forums, and although not moderated- allows for the most liberal and frank discussion of the INC. --Onlytofind 07:27, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree that the 70213 forum is in the top three most-active forums, after the 84590 forum and the Bereans' forum...but it's full of crude insults and profanity because it is unmoderated. There is a real possibility that when people follow a link to that forum, they might realize that the majority of the profanity and insults come from the side of the detractors, which would help us--71.32.86.239 14:49, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Let's not forget about the reality distortion field surrounding the pro-INC crowd, such as ETE and friends. I think anyone interested in the INC would reconsider after reading their posts.--Onlytofind 02:14, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * And now we have a 'reality distortion field' surrounding us. That's three insults by you on this page I've found this morning - and I remember how you berated me for ONE comment that you took as an insult.--gcessor71.32.86.239 13:23, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Once again, here we go with the double standards. You're going to accuse the INC detractors of doing the majority of insults at the forums when it's mainly the pro-INC crowd behind all this bickering. I've already tried to maintain decorum in my debate, and even stood with you in that Discover fiasco. But it seems that you have to insult every INC detractor, along with your assistant ealva and think that you're justified in doing so since I'm the lone INC detractor who frequently edits this article. That's the entire reason I'm here- to prevent tyranny of the majority. --Onlytofind 04:29, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I dunno. I've seen the forum myself and a lot of it's either bickering. What percentage of that forum's posts are actually useful? --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 11:18, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * There are usually many useful and relevant discussions at that forum, which are unfortunately overpowered by some rotten apples (on both sides). I would like to add it back, because as it stands now, there are two forums moderated by INC members and one which is not. I think it would add balance to the discussion section.--Onlytofind 02:35, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * You are mistaken, Onlytofind. The 84590 forum is moderated by Gordon Cancio, a Catholic and a longtime INC detractor.  The Bereans' site is of course moderated by detractors, and the sole remaining Network54 forum listed is the only one moderated by an INC member, RS.  --gcessor71.32.86.239 13:23, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Then why does the forum's description clearly state: "Lastly, I'm an INC." I don't doubt you that Cancio moderates that forum, but why? If that's the case, shouldn't you go and tell him to delete that? --Onlytofind 04:31, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I also would like to add a link. I'm still in the process of creating it but what it will contain basically will be the same stuff you will see on the forum on Network54. I will, of course, not put my name on it but will be anonymous as the other forums. It will be a la thebereans.net. I'm thinking of calling it liarandthelyingliars.com.
 * You've gotta be kidding me. Just make your point before others try to figure out what it is.
 * What happened, emico? Was RabidINCFanboys.com already registered? You really need to get back on your medication before you hurt yourself or someone else.Onlytofind 02:14, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Onlytofind, didn't you accuse me of insulting you? I said that those with good reading comprehension could easily see how I had said we DID charge for the Pasugo at one time, but not now (after you had implied that I was posting a lie)...and you accused me of insulting you and calling you illiterate.  And then you post the above.
 * I stand by my insults, while you beat around the bush and did everything short of outright insulting me and ran around stating that since you didn't outright try to insult me, it wasn't an insult at all. I take it that from your reply, you don't mind the insults on the Bereans or any other religions but when factual criticism is put up against the INC, you and emico make it seem like it's the world against the INC, who both of you think obviously do nothing wrong against people of other faiths while you believe that all INC detrators have to play by "your standards". Say what you want, the truth is obvious.Onlytofind 04:22, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Have you noticed how someone from nowhere pops in here talking about arianism, and then right on cue, only to find adds arianism on the discussion? interesting. Emico 07:58, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I seen it too. Since there's no source backing up the Arianism claim, I would have reverted it as well. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 11:18, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * Emico, I wish that I could reply to your comment, except that I can't understand your atrocious grammar.--Onlytofind 02:41, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Emico, I think Onlytofind's "strongly implying" that you are illiterate!--gcessor71.32.86.239 13:23, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Not illiterate, just a bad writer and reader. He needs to look in the mirror before he insults anyone else.--Onlytofind 05:44, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Hello Team. Let just say I read and enjoy your post, but I rarely reply to post by juveniles, I think it's a waste of my valuable time. Emico 13:30, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
 * What are you going to do now, make more lies about me, like that I'm associated with the Catholics or the Bereans? It seems that you've taken your personal biases too far, and you're about to get disciplined by the sysops due to your shameless, biased and pathetic vandalization of the Bereans article, not to mention this one and the two Manalo articles. Unless you stop your tomfoolery and start adhering to Wikipedia rules, I will do everything I can to get you banned from the Wikipedia. --Onlytofind 05:15, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Okay, Folks...
...let's turn the heat down a little. We can all disagree without being this disagreeable. Remember, No personal attacks. This is supposed to be discussion about how to improve the article, not about how awful, evil, or sinful we find each other to be. (I certainly can't claim the ability to speak for him, but I doubt that Jesus is greatly pleased by all of this.) That having been said, I have little interest in moderating an INC forum. So I'll ask an utterly unrelated question to persons more knowledgable than myself. Which is proper, INC or InC, Iglesia Ni Cristo or Igelsia ni Cristo? (I don't have to wonder whether Church Of Christ or Church of Christ is correct, that is obvious. Why would this not be the same way?)  Rlquall 11:57, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Well said, Riquall (and to answer your question, AFAIK it doesn't matter). I would further point out that while those who insult are wrong, those who see those insults and use them as an excuse to hurl their own insults are equally wrong.  It's not easy, but I remember being on the receiving end of insults for years on the 84590 forum - and such attacks included lies posted about my family.  I finally left the forum when those who were attacking me began posting my personal information.  What's the point?  While I rebuked time after time after time those who insulted me, I did NOT lower myself to their level and start hurling insults of my own.  Sometimes I made judgmental statements in those rebukes, but they were never meant as insults.  What is important about this?  If I can withstand hundreds and hundreds (no exaggeration!) of insults, perhaps those who complain about being insulted can say to themselves that they can achieve the same level of conduct.  It ain't easy....--gcessor71.32.86.239 13:31, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Friendly reminder, Glenn- sign in before you perform any edits to the article so that your username can properly be accredited and that you can use the talk page to solve any disputes. I also request for you to read the comment posted by Rlquall at my talk page User_talk:Onlytofind. --Onlytofind 05:14, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Simply put, I heartily agree with the comment Rlquall left here, and from now on, I promise to only discuss matters relating to this article here in this section and refer all irrelevant discussion to Wikipedia sysops or personal user talkpages. I hope that the other major contributors to this article will join me in doing the same.--Onlytofind 05:14, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks Rquall. About your INC or InC question. I think we should name it to whatever is written on the signs of the locales. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 20:31, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

 * From the chapels I've seen, the name of the church is always written in all caps (IGLESIA NI CRISTO), but in the magazine, it is continuously referred to as the "Iglesia ni Cristo."--Onlytofind 05:11, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

INC central office
Anybody care to merge the info from INC's central office article to the central office sub section here?

mga ministro reypis.gaya ni ka emillio santiago tagapangasiwa ng batanngas ngayon.may crimen siyang ginawa noon nasa bicol pa siya ginahasa niya ang pamankin ng asawa niya.nang nagkaalaman na ay binantaan pa na papatay nila sila.sana makita ni ka erdie ito para naman maaksiyonan iton krimen na ngyare.katunayan nakakaalam nito ay sila kapatid na armando cuevas at lucy cuevas bali ninang niya ito.ang masaklap nagtatangahan na lang ang asawa niya.kahit kamg anak niya ang biktima.dahil alang alang na lang sa mga anak niya.masama pa nito nagtuturo parin siya ng aarl nang diyos kahit ganun na ang ngyari may voice tape akong hawak na isang ibidensiya na umamin si ka emil.sabihin ninyo lang kung saan ko ilalagay

title: Talk:Iglesia ni Cristo/Archive 1


text: User talk:70.249.190.59

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:70.249.190.59


text:
User talk:80.202.199.95

On Wikipedia, you must adopt a NPOV (hover over the green with your mouse to see what it means). So no commenting on whether teams are good or bad, except with specific data.--> Energy (talk) 07:37, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:80.202.199.95


text:
Piasecki HUP Retriever

The Piasecki HUP Retriever or H-25 Army Mule, later UH-25, is a compact single radial engine, twin overlapping tandem rotor utility helicopter developed by the Piasecki Helicopter Corporation of Morton, Pennsylvania. Designed to a United States Navy specification, the helicopter was produced from 1949 to 1954, and was also used by the United States Army and foreign navies. The HUP/H-25 was the first helicopter to be produced with an autopilot and also the first to perform a loop.

Design and development
The design was a product of a competition by the U.S. Navy in 1945 for a compact utility/rescue helicopter to operate from ships including aircraft carriers, battleships, and cruisers. Either 2 or 3 prototypes—designated PV-14 by the factory and XHJP-1 by the Navy—were built and subjected to a side-by-side flight evaluation against the 3 prototypes of the Sikorsky XHJS-1; however, the XHJS was fundamentally a scaled-up version of the Sikorsky H-5, and the increased weight and size magnified the design's problems with maintaining proper weight and balance under varying loading conditions. The Piasecki won the competition, and with the introduction of the aircraft configuration letter "U" for Utility in the 1950s, the aircraft was ordered for production as the HUP-1.

The design featured two three-bladed, 35 ft rotors in tandem in which blades could be folded for storage; the relatively small rotor diameter allowed the aircraft to use aircraft carrier elevators with its blades fully extended. The tandem overlapping rotor configuration was a development by Piasecki and was used in future helicopter designs by the company and successors including the H-21, HRB-1/CH-46, and CH-47. The original HUP-1 was powered by a single Continental R-975-34 radial engine, with a take-off rating of 525 hp, while later versions used the uprated R-975-42 or R-975-46A with 550 hp. To aid search and rescue (SAR) operations, the aircraft was equipped with an overhead winch capable of lifting 400 lb (181 kg), which could lower a rescue sling through an electrically-operated door available after the copilot's seat was folded forward.

During a flight demonstration of its capability to withstand high g-force, the type became the first helicopter to perform a loop, albeit unintentionally.

Operational history
The aircraft first entered service in February 1949 with the delivery of the first of 32 HUP-1 aircraft to the US Navy. The improved HUP-2 (Piasecki designation PV-18) was soon introduced with a more powerful engine, deletion of the inward-canted horizontal stabilizer endplate fins, and various minor changes in equipment; a sub-variant equipped with dunking sonar for anti-submarine warfare was given the designation HUP-2S. The HUP-2 was the first production helicopter equipped with an autopilot. The US Navy also tested a radio navigation system called Raydist that allowed an unmanned HUP-2 to be directed from a ground station and by radio ordered to hover within 5 ft of the desired point. Edo tested a HUP-2 with a fiberglass hull and outrigger floats for amphibious operations.

An upgraded version of the HUP-2 was built for the US Army and designated as the H-25A Army Mule, but most were quickly withdrawn from Army service and converted for naval use under the designation HUP-3. In 1954, the Royal Canadian Navy received three former US Army H-25A aircraft, which were modified and redesignated on delivery to conform to US Navy HUP-3 standards. The aircraft were used aboard HMCS Labrador for search and rescue and varied utility duties, and were later used to support construction at Distant Early Warning Line radar sites. The helicopters were subsequently posted to NAF Patricia Bay and naval air station HMCS Shearwater; after the last two were stricken from inventory on 18 January 1964, one aircraft was donated to a technical school and the other two were sold as surplus.

The US Army H-25 designation was adopted by the US Navy in 1962 on introduction of the 1962 United States Tri-Service aircraft designation system. The final units were withdrawn from US service in 1964. It also served with French Naval Aviation (Aeronavale) from 1953 to 1965.

A total of 339 aircraft were delivered during the 6-year production run. A large number of surplus US Navy aircraft later appeared on the US civil registry, and at least seven were transferred to the French Navy.

On 7 November 2009, former US Navy HUP-1, BuNo 124925, civil registration number N183YP, collided with high-voltage power lines in Adelanto, California; the subsequent crash and post-crash fire killed all 3 occupants and substantially damaged the aircraft. Operated in association with Classic Rotors, the accident aircraft was the only airworthy example in the world. The National Transportation Safety Board attributed the crash to "The pilot’s failure to maintain clearance from powerlines during en route flight."

Variants

 * XHJP-1
 * Prototype, powered by a 525 hp Continental R-975-34 piston engine, equipped with large sloping endplate fins on the horizontal stabilizers. Piasecki-Vertol designation was PV-14. 2 or 3 produced.

 * HUP-1
 * Utility transport and search and rescue helicopter for the US Navy, largely similar to XHJP-1, Piasecki designation was PV-18. 32 built.

 * HUP-2
 * Improved version, 550 hp Continental R-975-42 piston engine, horizontal stabilizer endplate fins eliminated. 165 built for the US Navy, 15 for French Aeronavale. Redesignated UH-25B in 1962.

 * HUP-2S
 * Anti-submarine warfare version of HUP-2 fitted with dunking sonar. 12 built.

 * HUP-3
 * Naval utility conversion of H-25A aircraft transferred from US Army: 50 to US Navy, 3 to Royal Canadian Navy.

 * H-25A Army Mule
 * Utility transport helicopter for US Army, similar to HUP-2 but powered by a 550 hp Continental R-975-46A piston engine, and fitted with large doors, power-boosted controls, and strengthened floors. 70 were delivered from 1953, but they were unsuitable for front-line use, with 53 transferred to the Royal Canadian and US Navies in 1954–1955, and the remaining helicopters used for training, being withdrawn from army service by 1958.

 * UH-25B
 * HUP-2 redesignated after 1962.

 * UH-25C
 * HUP-3 redesignated after 1962.

Operators

 * 🇨🇦 Canada
 * Royal Canadian Navy
 * French Navy
 * United States Army
 * United States Navy
 * United States Army
 * United States Navy

Surviving aircraft
For surviving aircraft, hyphenated numbers are original US Army Serial Numbers; six-digit numbers are original US Navy Bureau of Aeronautics (BuAer) Bureau Numbers (BuNo). All 50 H-25A/HUP-3 aircraft transferred from the US Army to the US Navy were given new bureau numbers; 3 aircraft transferred to the Royal Canadian Navy were redesignated, but retained their original US Army serial numbers.

Canada

 * On display
 * UH-25B (HUP-2) 128529 at Shearwater Aviation Museum in Shearwater, Nova Scotia. This aircraft has been restored to the appearance of 51-16621, the first Royal Canadian Navy HUP-3.
 * UH-25C (HUP-3), 51-16623 - Canada Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa, Ontario.

Netherlands

 * UH-25B (HUP-2), 130076 (construction number 253) – Baris Business Park roadway roundabout in Rotterdam. This aircraft was originally used by the US Navy and was later transferred to the French Navy.

United Kingdom

 * UH-25C (HUP-3), 51-16622 – displayed at The Helicopter Museum in Weston-super-Mare, England, wearing Canadian markings.

United States

 * On display
 * H-25A Army Mule
 * 51-16616 – United States Army Aviation Museum in Fort Rucker, Alabama.

 * HUP-1
 * 124915 – USS Hornet Museum in Alameda, California.

 * UH-25B (HUP-2)
 * 128479 – American Helicopter Museum in West Chester, Pennsylvania.
 * 128517 – Wings of Freedom Aviation Museum in Horsham, Pennsylvania.
 * 128519 – Intrepid Sea, Air & Space Museum in New York City, New York.
 * 128596 – Flying Leatherneck Aviation Museum in San Diego, California.
 * 130059 – USS Midway Museum in San Diego, California.
 * 130082 – on the deck of the USS Iowa Museum in San Pedro, California.

 * UH-25C (HUP-3)
 * 147595 – Pima Air & Space Museum in Tucson, Arizona.
 * 147600 – Air Zoo in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
 * 147607 – National Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, Florida.
 * 147628 – Mid-America Air Museum in Liberal, Kansas.
 * 51-16621 – Classic Rotors in Ramona, California. As of December 2019, this is the only Piasecki Helicopter-manufactured aircraft with valid FAA aircraft registration. This former Royal Canadian Navy aircraft is reportedly the last HUP/H-25 capable of being restored to airworthy condition; it was exchanged in 2000 by the Canadian Museum of Flight for unflyable HUP-2 128529, which was subsequently traded again in 2002 to the Shearwater Aviation Museum and repainted as 51-16621.

 * Under restoration or in storage
 * UH-25B (HUP-2)
 * 128598 - Stored at New England Air Museum in Windsor Locks, Connecticut.
 * 130053 – Stored at Quartzsite, Arizona.
 * 130063 - Stored at New England Air Museum in Windsor Locks, Connecticut.
 * UH-25C (HUP-3)
 * 147610 – Yanks Air Museum in Chino, California, in storage.

title: Piasecki HUP Retriever


text:
Edgar Alwin Payne

Edgar Alwin Payne (1 March 1883 – 8 April 1947) was an American painter. He was known as a Western landscape painter and muralist.

Early life
Payne was born near Cassville, Barry County, Missouri, in the heart of the Ozarks. Cassville is in southwest Missouri, near the Arkansas border. According to the U.S. Census of 1900, he resided with his parents, two sisters and five brothers in Prairie Grove, Washington County, Arkansas; his Alabama-born father was employed as a carpenter. Edgar's occupation was listed as “carpenter, apprentice.”

Leaving home on several occasions, Payne painted houses, signs, portraits, murals, and local theater stage sets, to pay his way. Traveling through the Ozarks, then around the Southeast and Midwest, he finally wound up in Chicago, and enrolled to study portrait art at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. He remained only two weeks at the institute, finding it too structured. He preferred instead to be self-taught, relying on practice and his own sense of direction.

Struggling at first, he soon exhibited a group of landscape works, painted on a small easel, at the Palette and Chisel Club. During this period he also obtained the occasional mural work to supplement his income.

In 1909, at the age of 26, he made his way to California for the first time. He spent several months painting at Laguna Beach, then headed to San Francisco. In San Francisco he met other artists, including commercial artist Elsie Palmer (1884–1971). He returned to California for a second time in 1911. When he returned to Illinois that fall, he found that Elsie had taken a job as commercial artist in Chicago. This cemented their already growing interest in each other. On the morning of their wedding day about a year later, 9 November 1912, Edgar noticed that the light was "perfect", and had Elsie postpone the ceremony until the afternoon. Luckily the artist in her offered some understanding.

As a couple they became well known in Chicago's art circle. Elsie helped Edgar with his mural work, and soon he had an exhibition at the Art Institute of Chicago. Arguably their greatest collaborative effort happened in 1914 with the arrival of their daughter, Evelyn. Between 1915 and 1918-19 Edgar maintained a professional address in Chicago at the Tree Studio Building on East Ohio Street.

Major breakthroughs
The following spring they took Evelyn to see her maternal grandparents in San Francisco. They also attended the Panama–Pacific International Exposition. The following year Edgar made his first trip to the Sierra Nevada Mountains. This trip was a big moment in his life, and Payne would return again and again to paint the unspoiled Sierra; these paintings remain one of the hallmarks of his work.

He earned his first major commission in 1917. In a bid to attract tourism, the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad asked him to paint the Southwest, along the railroads' trek from Albuquerque to California. This commission not only solidified his reputation as an artist, it also forever linked him to Western America. Although he painted in Europe, he is most remembered for his work from the Four Corners area of the Navajo Nation Reservation, Yosemite, and the California coast. That year he and Elsie spent four months painting, exploring, and taking in Canyon de Chelly. This area, from Taos, New Mexico to the Grand Canyon, became one of Payne's two main inspirations for the next twenty years.

The Santa Fe Railroad commissions were the turn of the century brainchild of William H. Simpson, chief of the railway's advertising department. Starting in 1892, with Thomas Moran, Simpson exchanged travel on the train, along with lodging at railroad hotels and meals at railroad restaurants, and sometimes even cash, for paintings, photographs, pottery, and jewelry. This endeavor lasted for decades and made the Santa Fe one of the largest collectors of southwestern fine art.

When the Santa Fe commission expired the couple returned to San Francisco. Edgar received a commission from the Congress Hotel in Chicago for a mural on 11,000 square yards of muslin. The mural was to cover several floors of the hallways of the hotel. Payne rented a warehouse in Glendale, California and hired other artists, including Elsie, to help complete the work.

In 1918, Edgar and Elsie made their home and studio in Laguna Beach. He helped to organize the Laguna Beach Art Association and became its first president. They spent the next four years painting their way through the southwest, in places like Canadian Rockies in British Columbia and Alberta, Canada, and then exhibiting in the Los Angeles area. Sometimes their trips would involve hiking into the backcountry, looking for undisturbed places of raw and rare beauty to paint, sometimes for weeks. Edgar exhibited extensively in California, including such important venues as the California Art Club (1918-1921), California State Fair (gold medal 1918; silver medal in 1919), Cannell & Chaffin Galleries (1920), and Stendahl Galleries (1921-1922). The Paynes spent part of the summer of 1921 at the California art colony of Carmel-by-the-Sea where Edgar exhibited his work at the Fifteenth Annual Exhibition of the local Arts and Crafts Club. After finding success during this period, the trio took a two-year "painting tour" of Europe, 1922–1924. Painting in Brittany, Paris, Provence, Switzerland, and Venice. His favorite place in Europe was the Alps, where he painted the Great White Peak of Mont Blanc, which the Paris Salon gave "an honorable mention" in spring 1923.

"The Great White Peak" is reputed to be in the collection of Newport Harbor High School in Newport Beach, California. This painting, and others, formed a collection of annual acquisitions at an art show sponsored to acquaint high school students with styles of painting and art. The collection was forgotten and distributed to various offices (and closets) in the school district. Its existence was rediscovered by school librarian John McGinnis who tracked down and restored all 56 of the missing paintings. The collection is now known as "The Ruth Stoever Fleming Collection".

Upon returning the U.S. in the fall of 1924, the Paynes first stayed in Chicago, then went back to Laguna Beach, and then to New York City in 1926. Always on the go, they painted in Arizona, California, the California Sierras, Connecticut, New Mexico, New York, and Utah. They spent summers crossing the country, painting as they went. They returned to Europe to paint the harbors of Brittany, and Chioggia, in 1928. The following summer they painted Lake Louise, Alberta.

Later life
After the financial collapse of 1929, and the subsequent Great Depression, commissions didn't come as easily, so the Paynes returned to Southern California on a more permanent basis, purchasing a new Los Angeles, studio-home, in 1932. During this time, Evelyn would marry, and Edgar and Elsie would become separated that same year. Edgar moved to Hollywood, to a small studio-home on Seward Street. However, he would spend a great deal of his time in the California Sierra Nevada Mountains, painting his favorite subject.

His lifelong obsession with the Sierras would lead him to produce a documentary film, “Sierra Journey”. In 1941 he wrote "Composition of Outdoor Painting", a comprehensive book on composition and composition forms. The book also explains landscape painting techniques, color, repetition, rhythm, and value. The seventh edition printing of the work was completed in 2005.

After a 14-year separation, Elsie returned to help Edgar in 1946, upon learning that he had cancer. She stayed with him until he died, 8 April 1947.

There is a bronze relief sculpture of Edgar at the Laguna Beach Art Museum, done by Elsie in 1952. She championed his work until her own health, and degradation of eyesight, caused her to stop in 1959. She moved in with Evelyn and her husband, in 1969, in Minneapolis. Elsie died peacefully 17 June 1971.

You can find works of Payne's that are of Italian harbors, the Alps, landscapes of Laguna, but Edgar Alwin Payne is most remembered for his work of American Indians of the Four Corners area, and, of course, the paintings of his beloved Sierras. In the Sierras, high up in Humphrey's Basin, you will find the lake named for him, Payne Lake.

His work was an influence on Bill Wray, John Deckert and other painters.

Public museum collections
Public museum collections with Payne's works include:
 * Utah Museum of Fine Arts at the University of Utah
 * Chicago Art Museum
 * University of Nebraska Galleries
 * Fleischer Museum (Scottsdale, Arizona)
 * Indianapolis Museum of Art
 * Laguna Art Museum, California
 * National Academy of Design Collection
 * National Collection of Fine Arts, Senate Building (Washington D.C.)
 * Pasadena Art Institute
 * Pasadena Museum of California Art
 * Southwest Museum of Los Angeles
 * Springville Museum of Art, Springville, Utah
 * Crocker Art Museum, Sacramento, California
 * Weisman Art Museum, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota

Memberships

 * Allied Art Association
 * American Artists Professional League
 * California Art Club (President, 1926)
 * Carmel Art Association
 * Chicago Society of Artists
 * International Society Art League
 * Laguna Beach Art Association
 * Palette and Chisel Club
 * Salmagundi Club, New York City, New York
 * Ten Painters of Los Angeles

title: Edgar Alwin Payne


text:
Talk:Final Fantasy magic

Bluster/Blaster spell from enemies
Hello everybody! I have repeatedly modified the spell named "Blaster" in the Blue Magic section, since this name is misspelled in the translation. The correct magic comes from Final Fantasy IV, is performed by Coeuries and/or Black Cats, and it's called "Bluster". I would like all your feedbacks regarding this fact, in order to proceed with its correction in the corresponding section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Staalwart (talk • contribs) 18:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
 * Coeurls in most games use "Blaster". Can you provide a source that the one used in FFIV is more correct than the term used in most other Final Fantasies?  --— Δαίδαλος  Σ  Σ  18:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I also believe that Blaster is the more common form of the spell. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) (Talk) 18:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I could cite several resources, most of them bestiaries and walkthroughs. Some of them are:

RPG Place.NET

Forums at EyesofFF.com

NeoSeeker.com FF Sky.com (Note: in this page, although in Chinese, we can see that, in the original Japanese version, the attack is named "Blaster", whilst in the American translated version is translated as "Bluster" - hence the discussion about which one is the correct name)

FAQs at iGN.com (This is for the Playstation version - Final Fantasy Chronicles)

Specially significative is the following page, in which the author specifies that the name of the spell in FF Chronicles/Anthologies (PSX) is Bluster, the original name in FF4J is burasuta (hence the English translation of "bluster"), the common mistranslation is Blaster, and the name in FF2 US (which is, again, Bluster).

Awaiting your comments...

Staalwart 18:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Your sources all point to "Bluster" being used in FFIV, that information is irrelevant. No one is arguing that "Bluster" was used, and sourcing that bit of info is completely superfluous.  What you should be sourcing, is something that says that FFIV's version is correct and the rest are not.
 * A walkthrough or fansite is not a WP:RS, and thus cannot be used to verify content in any WP article.
 * "...original name in FF4J is burasuta (hence the English translation of "bluster")" is incorrect, because that doesn't make "Bluster". By your own link, the original japanese is "burAsuta".  I don't know how much you know about japanese, but that is how the english word "Blaster" is written with japanese characters.  It is written with four characters "Bu-Ra-Su-Ta", which is pronounced "Brasta".  "Ta" is used to approximate the english pronounciation of "-ter", and "R" is used for both the english "L" and "R", so "Brasta" is clearly "Blaster".  If it were meant to be "Bluster" then the original japanese would have been written "burUsuta" (pronounced "brusta") instead.
 * --— Δαίδαλος Σ

Σ 19:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I stand corrected, beaten and bruised though, but corrected... Doubt clarified, and claim withdrawn. Staalwart 22:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Notability flag
Is the notability flag serious? Does anyone doubt that the subject of this article is notable? Can we just remove the flag, or is there something else to be done? I forget who added the flag, but I have heard no discussion about it, and am wondering if we should just remove the flag. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) (Talk) 03:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I can understand why it was put there - this article isn't really of interest even to the majority of the series' players - only to a set of fans. It's not mentioned outside of the series, to my knowledge, so it really does seem quite crufty. While I love the article and want it to stay, it really doesn't seem to be appropriate.
 * So, yeah, we should leave the tag there until good arguments for why this page isn't cruft can be formulated.KrytenKoro 07:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It was originally placed by the editor Kariteh on 17th April 2007. He/she had not started a discussion on this, though if it had I think it would have taken a large portion on the talk page. — Bluerです. なにか? 07:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This entire article is a glorified game guide and gigantic example farm. It is totally unsourced, and secondary and third-party sources would be difficult to find. It is written almost in an in-universe point of view, as it lacks "Creation and influences" and "Reception and criticism" sections. In its current state, the article is definitely not notable. Kariteh 08:12, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Your claims sounds so true that it scares me how this article can be so close to be nominated for deletion. There has been no citation so far, most subjects are based from observation, and the game guide feature can be found in many sections. — Bluerです. なにか? 09:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

 * The above comments show how it is a poorly sourced article, but I fail to see how that translates into a non-notable topic. Much of the material for this page was moved from either Final Fantasy (series) or article on individual FF titles.  If this article were deleted, we would see considerable bloat on many of the other FF articles.  While I agree that sources would greatly improve this article, I have stated several times before that finding sources for an ongoing series like this is quite problematic.  I can find lots of sources about individual titles, but seldom about the series in general.  If one can be found, it is only valid until the next title comes out; after that, any and all statements could now be false.  wrp103 (Bill Pringle)  (Talk) 12:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I have to agree with Bill, it is most certainly poorly sourced, but WP:V and WP:N are not the same thing. Just because it is example farm and unsourced doesn't mean it isn't notable.  I'd like to make a comparison to Spira (Final Fantasy X).  This article has only one section of out-of-universe information, and it contains only two salient facts: (1) Yoshinori Kitase wanted a "simple fantasy world" and (2) Tetsuya Nomura wanted a "predominantly asian theme".  And yet with only 2 out-of-universe facts this article is still featured as an example of a notable article on WP:FICT.  It's also important to note that the reason given for it's notability is that it "[was] evolved from lists of terms, events and concepts into general encyclopedia articles" so lacking "Creation and Influences" and "Reception Criticism" is clearly not a valid reason to claim non-notability (granted, they wouldn't hurt to further assert it, and it is important that we get something at some point).  Is there any reason that the same rationale does not also apply to this article?  --— Δαίδαλος  Σ  Σ  15:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I generally agree, although I just went and replaced Spira (Final Fantasy X) with World of Final Fantasy VIII since it's essensially the same thing but with more out of universe information. But yes; a topic's notability is not the same as how the topic is currently treated. — Deckiller 15:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "this article isn't really of interest even to the majority of the series' players - only to a set of fans. It's not mentioned outside of the series, to my knowledge, so it really does seem quite crufty." - That's why it's very close to non-notable - NOBODY BUT US CARES.KrytenKoro 21:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

There is also a practical aspect to keeping this article. It provides someplace to move things when they get added to the already huge main article Final Fantasy (series). I moved a ton of stuff from the main article to trim it down. If this article were to be deleted, the main article would suffer an extreme case of "content creep". As for the nobody cares argument, this article is a great way for new fans to understand the culture behind the series. Most fans wouldn't need the article, because they already know what Esuna means, but a newbie probably doesn't. After all, there are many people who doesn't care about Final Fantasy, but that doesn't mean the topic isn't notable. (Such people have serious problems, of course, but they are free to not care. ;^) wrp103 (Bill Pringle) (Talk) 00:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * A few months ago, we started a sandbox of a gameplay of Final Fantasy article, User:Deckiller/Gameplay of Final Fantasy, which will bring together the Final Fantasy items, Limit Break, elements from the main article, Final Fantasy magic, and overviews of other articles. It's been put on the backburner temporarily. — Deckiller 01:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd also like to point out that even if "NOBODY BUT US CARES" that does not mean that something is non-notable. I'd like to point out that per our guidelines Notability is not popularity.  --— Δαίδαλος  Σ  Σ  05:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "For example, popular Internet fads may be the subject of few or no reliable sources and fail to be notable, but a rather obscure seventeenth-century poet may have substantial coverage in reliable histories qualifying the subject as notable." - This is what I meant by "nobody but us cares" - there's no coverage by this except for the more obsessed fans, such as us. Unless you count game guides, which we aren't supposed to be, no "reliable" source has covered anything on this page.KrytenKoro 06:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You have to differentiate between something that isn't sourced, and something that is not likely to have sources. Being a large factor in the Final Fantasy Franchise, FF Magic is likely to have many sources from third parties, in fact, here's the results of a 5 second Google Scholar search that all talk about Final Fantasy and it's Magic       See?  There is plenty of available sources for information, they just aren't used and/or aren't referenced into the article.  This article is certainly not very well verified, but it is definitely notable.  --— Δαίδαλος  Σ  Σ  06:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * A minor criticism - the first two don't mention Final Fantasy magic at all, the third merely mentions that it exists, and the Elvaan and Tarutaru thing, the fourth goes so far as to mention that FF magic resembles Shinto, the next actually does something relevant to the topic (briefly discussing how magicite works and that magic is used in battle), and the last recognizes summoning Aeons, the leveling and reception of magical ability, and the wonderful line:

 * "For Skirrow, an internalised anxiety about an unreal danger, understood in terms of castration anxiety, is externalised with the embodiment of the “penis-as-magic-wand” ".
 * I think the last one is what we are actually looking for as proof of notability, so, it seems it is settled. I'd just like to add that that essay is perhaps the best thesis paper ever. Why do the liberal arts kids get to have all the fun assignments?KrytenKoro 07:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I'd just like to add, that those were copy-and-pasted results of a 5 second google scholar search, and I understand now (after reading more thouroughly) that not all of them when read in depth are relevant. However, I have since found a few more, and have now included more information in the opening paragraph that helps assert notability as well as add more meaningful content to the article.  I understand that the prose is choppy and may need some tweaks and revisions, but it's late at night for where I am, and I simply don't have the brain power to perform the proper tweaks, so I just included the info as I found it, and it can be fixed later.  --— Δαίδαλος  Σ  Σ  08:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * EDIT: As a side note, if you really read that last thesis it's a kick! That is perhaps the most fascinating thesis I have ever parsed and I strongly recommend all Final Fantasy fans to at least skim through it — especially if you are editing for FFX.  --— Δαίδαλος  Σ  Σ  08:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Excellent. Google Scholar search is great. — Deckiller 12:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Haha!
I saw this and laughed! Rinoa's dog can perform tricks that most dogs can't, such as bringing people back from the dead and making them invincible ♥♥ ΜÏΠЄSΓRΘΠ€ ♥♥ slurp me! 13:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No Summon Magic details for FFVII
Kinda funny considering the fanbase ;) Is this area of the page just for plot conciderations, or an overview of how summons affect gameplay? 68.45.252.169 19:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge from Final Fantasy Summon Creatures suggestion
Somebody added a mergefrom tag for Final Fantasy Summon Creatures, but didn't start a discussion anywhere, so I guess this will be it.

The article referenced looks like a pretty new stub, but it has a potential to become a significant article. There is a lot of material that could be covered in that article, if it isn't already covered somewhere else. I would give the article time to take shape and then see what should happen to it. Personally, I think merging would be a bad idea at this time.

Merge

 * 1) I don't see, aside from the japanese name for the Summon Creatures, content in the stub article that has not been said in Summoning Magic section. And I'm actually being clairvoyant here, which isn't good, but I foresee the article becoming a game guide instead. I propose a redirect. — Blue.  17:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Merge/Delete, I'm quite sure something like that has been deleted before. Axem Titanium 16:56, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't Merge

 * 1) wrp103 (Bill Pringle)  (Talk) 16:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC) - Too soon.  Let the article develop.  Also, give people time to figure out if the material is already (or should be) in some other article (Like Final Fantasy Summon Magic).

Summon Page
anyone want a page devoted to the summon monsters themselves? i'm not asking for a gamewiki just a discription of the summon and its appeances so farKou Nurasaka (talk) 16:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:ShivaFFX-X2.jpg
Image:ShivaFFX-X2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Final Fantasy III 1/2: Treasure of the Silent Cartographer

 * Super Magic was introduced in Final Fantasy III 1/2: Treasure of the Silent Cartographer and had the ability to copy enemy moves.

Anybody know anything about this? Google didn't come up with anything, so I suspect that this is just somebody plugging their fangame. Besides which, it just sounds like an alternative name for Blue Magic... DGemmell (talk) 16:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Final Fantasy magic


text: User talk:69.239.62.113

title: User talk:69.239.62.113


text:
User talk:Aikiben

Aiki
Aikiben is derived from the word (合気) Aiki ( Japanese ) or he qi (Mandarin) which both has the same meaning. Direct translation to English of these two words mean "combined-air". However, in context it is derived from Chinese philosophy with the believe that a person's health status, stamina or strength or very existence is determined by ki/qi; the internal energy or life-force. This term is widely used in Chinese Medicine or Chinese Kung Fu. To read more on Qi, title

Ben
Ben is a abbreviated version of the Christian name Benjamin or Benedict.

Aikiben
To know more about Aikiben's articles on living, pls click

title: User talk:Aikiben


text:
User talk:Kmorrow

new collaboration project
You'd you be interested in participating in a new Collaboration project that aims at translating good and featured articles in the French Wikipedia to English (much like the Spanish Translation of the Week)? I'm trying to see if there's enough users interested in this project before creating it. Thank you. CG 17:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:04, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kmorrow


text:
Tux Paint

Tux Paint is a free and open source raster graphics editor geared towards young children. The project was started in 2002 by Bill Kendrick who continues to maintain and improve it, with help from numerous volunteers. Tux Paint is seen by many as a free software alternative to Kid Pix, a similar proprietary educational software product.

History
Tux Paint was initially created for the Linux operating system, as there was no suitable drawing program for young children available for Linux at that time. It is written in the C programming language and uses various free and open source helper libraries, including the Simple DirectMedia Layer (SDL), and has since been made available for Microsoft Windows, Apple macOS, Android, Haiku, and other platforms.

Selected milestone releases:
 * 2002.06.16 (June 16, 2002) – initial release (brushes, stamps, lines, eraser), two days after coding started
 * 2002.06.30 (June 30, 2002) – first Magic Tools added (blur, blocks, negative)
 * 2002.07.31 (July 31, 2002) – localization support added
 * 0.9.11 (June 17, 2003) – right-to-left support, UTF-8 support in Text tool
 * 0.9.14 (October 12, 2004) – Tux Paint Config. configuration tool released, Starter image support
 * 0.9.16 (October 21, 2006) – slideshow feature, animated and directional brushes
 * 0.9.17 (July 1, 2007) – arbitrary screen size and orientation support, SVG support, input method support
 * 0.9.18 (November 21, 2007) – Magic Tools turned into plug-ins, Pango text rendering
 * 0.9.25 (December 20, 2020) – support for exporting individual drawings and slideshows (as animated GIFs)
 * 0.9.28 (June 4, 2022) – 20-year milestone release, adds the ability to use any colour by setting hue and saturation instead of a static palette.
 * 0.9.29 (April 2, 2023) – introduces fifteen new Plugins, improvements to the Stamp and Shapes tool and a new quick start guide.

Features

Tux Paint stands apart from typical graphics editing software (such as GIMP or Photoshop) that it was designed to be usable by children as young as 3 years of age. The user interface is meant to be intuitive, and utilizes icons, audible feedback and textual hints to help explain how the software works. The brightly colored interface, sound effects and cartoon mascot (Tux, the mascot of the Linux kernel) are meant to engage children.

Tux Paint's normal interface is split into five sections:

 * Toolbox, containing the various basic tools and application controls (undo, save, new, print).
 * Canvas, where the images are drawn and edited.
 * Color palette, where colors can be chosen (when applicable to the current tool).
 * Selector, providing various selectable objects (e.g., brushes, fonts or sub-tools, depending on the current tool).
 * Information area, where instructions, tips and encouragement are provided.

A simple slideshow feature allows previously saved images to be displayed as a basic flip-book animation or as a slide presentation.

Basic drawing tools
Like most popular graphics editing and composition tools, Tux Paint includes a paintbrush, an eraser, and tools to draw lines, polygonal shapes and text. Tux Paint provides multiple levels of undo and redo, allowing accidental or unwanted changes to be removed while editing a picture.

Files and printing
Tux Paint was designed in such a way that the user does not need to understand the underlying operating system or how to deal with files. The "Save" and "Open" commands were designed to mimic those of software for personal digital assistant devices, such as the Palm handheld. When one saves a picture in Tux Paint, they do not need to provide a file name or browse for where to place it. When one goes to open a previously saved picture, a collection of thumbnails of saved images is shown.

Similarly, printing is typically a 'no questions asked' process, as well.

Beginning with version 0.9.25, Tux Paint offers the ability to export individual drawings, as well as slideshow animations in animated GIF format.

Advanced drawing tools

Tux Paint includes a number of 'filters' and 'special effects' which can be applied to a drawing, such as blurring, fading, and making the picture look as though it was drawn in chalk on pavement. These are available through the 'Magic' tool in Tux Paint. Starting with version 0.9.18, Tux Paint's 'Magic' tools are built as plugins that are loaded at runtime and use a C API specifically for creating such tools.

A large collection of artwork and photographic imagery are also available (under a license allowing free redistribution), and may be placed inside drawings using Tux Paints "Rubber Stamp" tool. Stamps can be in either raster (bitmap) format (in PNG format, supporting 24bpp and full alpha transparency), or as vector graphics (in SVG format) on many platforms Tux Paint supports. As of mid-2008, over 800 stamps are included in the stamps collection.

Parental and teacher controls

As features are added to Tux Paint, configuration options have been added that allow parents and teachers to disable features and alter the behavior to better suit their children's or students' needs, or to better integrate the software in their home or school computing environment. Typical options, such as enabling or disabling sound effects and full-screen mode are available. There are also options that help make Tux Paint suitable for younger or disabled children, such as displaying text using only uppercase letters or ignoring the distinction between buttons on the mouse.

Localization
Tux Paint has been translated into numerous languages, and has support for the display of text in languages that use non-Latin character sets, such as Japanese, Greek, or Telugu. As of November 2021, 130 languages are supported. Correct support for complex languages requires Pango. Sound effects and descriptive sounds for stamp imagery can also be localized. Tux Paint includes its own form of input method support, allowing entry of non-Latin characters using the 'Text' tool. Japanese (Romanized Hiragana and Romanized Katakana), Korean (Hangul 2-bul) and Traditional Chinese are currently supported.

Accessibility
Tux Paint offers built-in accessibility features, including an on-screen keyboard for use with the text entry tools, keyboard and joystick/gamepad control of the pointer, options to increase the size of UI elements (useful for coarse assistive technology, such as eye gaze trackers), and an option to play sounds monaurally.

title: Tux Paint


text:
User talk:Ongengwai

'''Hello,, Welcome  to Wikipedia! '''I hope you like working here and want to continue. If you need help on how to name new articles, look at Naming Conventions, and for help on formatting the pages visit the Manual of Style. If you need general help, look at Help and the FAQ, and if you can't find your answer there, check the Village pump (for Wikipedia related questions) or the Reference Desk (for general questions). There's still more help at the Tutorial and the Policy Library. Also, don't forget to visit the Community Portal — and if you have any more questions after that, feel free to post them on my Talk Page.'''

Additional tips:
 * Here are some extra tips to help you get around Wikipedia:
 * If you made any edits before you got an account, you might be interested in assigning those to your username.
 * If you want to play around with your new Wiki skills, try the Sandbox.
 * Click on the Edit button on a page, and look at how other editors did what they did.
 * You can sign your name using three tildes, like this: ~~~. If you use four, you can add a datestamp too. Always sign comments on Talk pages, never sign Articles.
 * You might want to add yourself to the New User Log
 * If your first language isn't English, try Contributing to articles outside your native language

Happy editing! Tan 15:40, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ongengwai


text:
Veloso

Veloso is a Portuguese surname that means "hairy". Following is a list of notable people with the surname Veloso.
 * Amelyn Veloso (1974-2017), a Filipino former broadcast journalist
 * António Veloso (born 1957), a Portuguese footballer and coach
 * Caetano Veloso (born 1942), a Brazilian composer and singer
 * Carla Veloso, a Cars series characters Female Auto racing World Grand Prix sports fiction Cars 2 (2011)
 * Diogo Veloso (1558–1599), a Portuguese explorer
 * Francisco Veloso (born 1969), a Portuguese academic
 * Juliana Veloso (born 1980), a Brazilian diver
 * Léo Veloso (born 1987), a Brazilian footballer
 * Lou Veloso (born 1948), a Filipino actor
 * Manuela M. Veloso (born 1957), a Portuguese-American robotics and computer science academic
 * Martina Veloso (born 1995), a Singaporean sports shooter
 * Mary Jane Veloso (born 1985), a Filipino woman who was sentenced to death for smuggling heroin into Indonesia
 * Miguel Veloso (born 1986), a Portuguese footballer
 * Moreno Veloso (born 1972), a Brazilian musician and singer, son of Caetano Veloso
 * Rui Veloso (born 1957), a Portuguese musician
 * Veloso (Brazilian footballer) (born 1983), a Brazilian footballer

title: Veloso


text:
Plan (disambiguation)

A plan is a set of instructions for attaining a given objective.

Plan or PLAN or planning may also refer to:

 * Planning, the organizational process of creating and maintaining a plan
 * Planning (cognitive), neurological processes involved in achieving a desired goal

Plan types

 * Automated planning and scheduling, a branch of Artificial Intelligence
 * Business plan
 * Development plan
 * Language planning
 * Marketing plan
 * Military plan
 * Plans (drawings), used for portraying an existing place or object, or for providing instructions to build or fabricate a place or object
 * Archaeological plan
 * Architectural drawing
 * Architectural plan
 * Blueprint
 * Engineering drawing
 * Floor plan
 * Plan view, an orthographic projection
 * Plat
 * Technical drawing
 * Project planning
 * Retirement plan
 * Urban planning

Acronyms

 * PLAN (examination), a standardized test administered by ACT, Inc.
 * People's Liberation Army Navy of China
 * People's Liberation Army of Namibia
 * Personal Localized Alerting Network, an emergency alert system that uses mobile devices
 * PLANS (non-profit) (People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools)

Entertainment

 * "iPlan", a 2023 song by Dlala Thukzin
 * Plan (film), a 2004 Bollywood film
 * Plans (album), an album by the band Death Cab for Cutie
 * "Plans", a song by Bloc Party from Silent Alarm (album)
 * "Plans" (song), a song by Birds of Tokyo
 * The Plan (2015 film), a 2015 Indian Kannada film

Places

 * Planá (Tachov District) (in German: Plan), a city in West Bohemia, Czech Republic
 * Planá (České Budějovice District) (in German: Plan), a village in South Bohemia, Czech Republic
 * Plan (Huesca), a place in the Spanish Provinz Huesca
 * Plan (Samnaun), a village in the Swiss Gemeinde Samnaun
 * Plan, Isère, commune in the Isère department, France
 * Plan, Albania, a village in the Pult area

Politics

 * Plans in Mexican history, a declaration of principles announced in conjunction with a rebellion (see also pronunciamiento)

Technology

 * .plan file, a file containing user information used by the Finger protocol
 * Calligra Plan, a project management application
 * Plan (calendar program), for the X Window System
 * PLAN (computer language) (Programming LAnguage for Nineteen-hundred), used to program ICT 1900 series computers

Other uses

 * Plan (aid organisation), an international organisation that allows people to sponsor children in developing countries
 * Plan (magazine), an Irish architectural publication
 * Slang for planning permission

title: Plan (disambiguation)


text: File:Yoko Ono Blueprint.jpg

title: File:Yoko Ono Blueprint.jpg


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matt Loughran

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was - merged - SimonP 02:28, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Matt Loughran
Guitarist with questionable notability. 306 Google hits but some of these refer to a New England DJ, a hockey manager, and a news editor. "Matt Loughran" + Guitar gets only 24 Google hits, see. Was going to suggest merging with Cold but would like other editors opinions first. JamesBurns 07:52, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with Cold -CunningLinguist 09:04, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete not notable on his own. Megan1967 03:46, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Plan (disambiguation)

Untitled
A disambiguation page for planning. Anticipating articles on planning as it pertains to the social sciences. --Rev Prez 07:52, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

geo parameter
What was the rationale for removing the geo parameter from the Disambiguation template in this edit? There are four places listed, which would seem to qualify per the template docs. Nick Number (talk) 01:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Most of the things in the disambiguation are not geography. It makes no sense to tag something as geographical when most of it is not.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:44, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Unless I am misunderstanding the normal usage of the parameters, it isn't a requirement that most of the entries be geographical. If all of them were, then it would be appropriate to use  .  As that template's docs note, the geo parameter should be used for "a disambiguation page containing multiple geographical location names and other entries".  Is that not the case here? Nick Number (talk) 19:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Plan (disambiguation)