text:
Talk:Jim McIngvale

Untitled
Article has been entered and edited by only one Wikipedian, who uses a great deal of invective when describing the subject.Article may have been written in jest. Seems to editorialize rather than accurately describe subject or subject's activities. Makes several implied assertions about subject's character and acts (specifically that the subject is known for making bribes), then claims subject admits these allegations, but does so without any formal quotes, links or documentation. Some article items are known and reported by local media in subject's hometown: namely, the subject's frequenting of public schools as a motivational speaker. Claims about Gallery Furniture being largest in the country may be accurate, but probably need to be verified in light of other comments within the article.

I can find no corroboration for the substance abuse claims in this article. Should that section be removed?

Vfd archive
Article was recently nominated for deletion, the consensus was to KEEP. The archived discussion can be found here. -- Francs2000 | Talk 23:47, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

additional information and citation
While in the Houston area Mac's philanthropy is will known, it will be difficult to cite as few things are mentioned. His donating several rooms of furniture for several families over the past couple of weeks aren't even cited anywhere that I can find. I won't revert the editing, but if you can cite his book or something, then I would suggest that you do before someone else does. Also, let's keep his awards and philanthropy in an easy and organized manner. --Hourick (talk) 22:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Mac v. Mack
Is it Matress Mac or Matress Mack? OddibeKerfeld (talk) 14:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The fire
I added some information about the fire over at History of Houston Fire Department, for those that feel some editing might be needed as the links are moved around and some additional information about the fire is revealed.--Hourick (talk) 18:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

 * I added a new article. I am not very good at this so I am sure I made some mistakes. Please clean up anything I did wrong. jspugh —Preceding undated comment added 15:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC).

 * While the article was changed to show that Arson is the cause of the fire; would it be proper to put in that witnesses initially thought the generator was at fault? --Hourick (talk) 21:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, you can say witnesses said/believed that a generator was at fault. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 11 external links on Jim McIngvale. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080317135628/http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2007_4319053 to http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2007_4319053
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070929022727/http://www.mondaymorningmemo.com/default.asp?ShowMe=ThisMemo&SearchCriteria=&MemoID=1591&UserEmail= to http://www.mondaymorningmemo.com/default.asp?ShowMe=ThisMemo&SearchCriteria=&MemoID=1591&UserEmail=
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090523231358/http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou090521_mp_gallery_warehouse_fire.3e87c43.html to http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou090521_mp_gallery_warehouse_fire.3e87c43.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081121012650/http://www.philanthropymagazine.com/Articles/12-1-McIngvale.htm to http://www.philanthropymagazine.com/Articles/12-1-McIngvale.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080513201045/http://www.uso.org/whoweare/oursupporters/partnerssponsors/ to http://www.uso.org/whoweare/oursupporters/partnerssponsors/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131216015248/http://www.khou.com/news/local/Gallery-Furniture-gives-30-Houston-area-families-new-new-furniture-235799531.html to http://www.khou.com/news/local/Gallery-Furniture-gives-30-Houston-area-families-new-new-furniture-235799531.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090831203902/http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2007_4480154 to http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2007_4480154
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160424082320/https://www.galleryfurniture.com/mattress/mack-o-pedic to http://www.galleryfurniture.com/mattress/mack-o-pedic
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140607005824/http://www.cbs8.com/story/25691482/nations-first-mobile-stroke-unit-successfully-transports-first-patient to http://www.cbs8.com/story/25691482/nations-first-mobile-stroke-unit-successfully-transports-first-patient
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140606204550/http://www.galleryfurniture.com/jim-mcingvale-funds-nations-first-mobile-stroke-unit to http://www.galleryfurniture.com/jim-mcingvale-funds-nations-first-mobile-stroke-unit
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130928141336/http://www.khou.com/news/local/Anonymous-group-targets-McIngvale-for-supporting-Tea-Party--94970804.html to http://www.khou.com/news/local/Anonymous-group-targets-McIngvale-for-supporting-Tea-Party--94970804.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 16:23, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Needs data about Katrina
I see we've added data about Harvey, but he did the same thing in Katrina per []. Crazysane (T/C\D) 11:44, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jim McIngvale


text:
Yoku Hata

Yōku Hata (波田陽区, Hata Yōku, real name: Akira Hada (波田 晃, Hada Akira), born June 5, 1975, in Shimonoseki, Yamaguchi Prefecture ) is a Japanese stand up comedian.

Career
Hata rose to popularity in 2004 with his character "The Guitar Zamurai (Samurai)" (ギター侍) on the program The God of Entertainment (エンタの神様). Dressed in a yukata, his skit always follows the same form. He makes a supposed quote about someone famous, and then mocks the quote (and the person) and says "残念!" (zannen!, Too Bad!) Then he imitates the person and finishes that section with a "切り" (giri!, Slash!) as he makes a sword slash movement with his guitar. At the end of a set, he usually says some self-depreciating remark and ends yelling "切腹!" (seppuku!). His popularity in this persona earned him an animated cameo in the Crayon Shin-Chan movie, "Crayon Shin-chan: The Legend of the Buri Buri 3 Minutes Charge", in which he played a monster that made fun of the sliding timescale of the cartoon (and thereby breaking the Fourth Wall).

After the novelty wore thin on the gimmick, he began to intermittently make appearances on variety shows under the Yoku Hata pseudonym and in regular street clothes. He has recently begun to bring back the "Guitar Zamurai" character sporadically, to play on its nostalgic appeal. In 2008, he formed a clique with other one-hit wonder comedians on the quiz/variety show Quiz! Hexagon II; their group was called "Ippatsuya 2008" (一発屋２００８).

Discography

 * ギター侍のうた (Guitar Samurai's Song, Gitaa-zamurai no uta) (Single, November 17, 2004)
 * ギター侍は波田陽区. (Yoku Hata is the Guitar Samurai, Gitaa-zamurai wa Hata Yoku) (DVD, December 1, 2004)
 * ギター侍のうた弐～完全保存盤～ (Guitar Samurai's Second Song - all-inclusive recording, Gitaa-zamurai no uta ni - kanzen hozen ban) (CD and DVD bundle, February 9, 2005)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Yoku Hata


text:
Yuan Ze University

Yuan Ze University (YZU; ) is a private university located in Taoyuan City, Taiwan. Established in 1989, YZU campus is in Zhongli District, Taoyuan; Taipei; and Bade District, Taoyuan.

Yuan Ze has five colleges, Engineering (accredited by IEET), Informatics, Management (accredited by AACSB and AAPBS), Humanities and Social Sciences, and Electrical and Communication Engineering (accredited by IEET). With over 8,000 students with a 2:1 ratio between undergraduate and graduate students on campus, YZU offers several international programs such as the English Program of Bachelor of Business Administration, Master’s Program in Industrial Engineering and Management. Additionally, the Master’s Programs in Communication Engineering are all taught in English.

Yuan Ze ranked 1501+ in Times Higher Education World University Rankings 2023. In 2023, the university ranked 401–500 in the Times Higher Education Young University Ranking.

Presidents

 * Wang Kuo-Ming (王國明): August 1989 – July 1999
 * Chan Shih-Hung (詹世弘): August 1999 – July 2005
 * Perng Tsong-Pyng (彭宗平): August 2005 – July 2012
 * Chang Jin-Fu (張進福): August 2012 – July 2015
 * Hsu Tze-Chi (徐澤志): August 2015 – January 2016
 * Wu Jyh-Yang (吳志揚): February 2016 – January 2022
 * Liao Ching-Jong (廖慶榮): February 2022 – present

Recognitions and awards

 * 2018  Ranked Times Higher Education Asia University top 200
 * 2017  Ranked QS Asia University top 210
 * 2016  Ranked 132, the BRICS and Emerging Economics University, Times Higher Education
 * 2015  Ranked QS Asia University top 250
 * 2014 Continuous winning for Teaching Excellence Project for 10 years
 * 2014  Ranked Times Higher Education Asia University top 100
 * 2013  Ranked 71st by the Asia University Ranking 2013, Times Higher Education
 * 2010  3 areas “Electrical Engineering”, “Computer  Science”, “Chemical Engineering” ranked in the top 200 in the world
 * 2010  One of the 11 Universities in Taiwan ranked in the top 300 in the world in the area of Computing & Technology Engineering
 * 2008  Teaching Excellence grant from MOE
 * 2008  Fuel Cell Research Center selected as a Center of Excellence by MOE
 * 2005  Top-University grant from MOE (Recognized as one of the top 12 universities in Taiwan)
 * 2004  Teaching Excellence grant from MOE

title: Yuan Ze University


text:
Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2005-06-06/Features and admins

Heya all, just a short note that you might want to link to User:Ta bu shi da yu/Focus article if you're going to mention the matinee business :) Ta bu shi da yu 03:45, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Good idea =) --Spangineer (háblame)  16:00, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Oak Beach Inn

Commercial?
Remember the old WDRE commercial?

Come gather 'round now, everyone Got a tale about Bob Matherson See, Bob's the owner of the OBI (And truth be told, one hell of a guy)

A businessman like you and me Conducting business in the Land of the Free But folks out there, in high places Hassled Bob about parking spaces

Bugged him about nonexistent things Hurtin' the fish (?), balloons on strings (something something)

Get out, get out of New York State Get out now, before it's too late

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike Schiraldi (talk • contribs) 03:46, 9 June 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I remember those ads. I also remember his cable ads "Have you been injured by a lawyer". Do you remember when he wanted to expand his club but was not allowed by the Town, so he bought an old ship and dragged it up onto the beach and connected it to the club? --Amcalabrese 05:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Does anybody remember the OBI WEST or OBI WEST II in Island Park? Remember the Good Rats or FOREST ? Remember SNEAKER SHOOTERS ?

OBI WEST BARTENDER!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by OBI WEST BARTENDER (talk • contribs) 22:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I remember that before Bob Matherson gave up on the place, his commercials mistakenly referred to the OBI being off the "Jones Beach Causeway," when they meant Ocean Parkway. "Jones Beach Causeway" was actually the name chosen for Wantagh State Parkway south of the formerly proposed interchange with Seaford-Oyster Bay Expressway. DanTD (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Oak Beach Inn
Another article on Wikipedia on Long Island says that this place is "notorious" but I don't really see much in this profile that backs up this assertion. Is this article leaving anything out? Newjerseyliz (talk) 16:15, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Famous Hearse & Quote
this should be added - Bob Matherson's hearse with his quote on top. "MOVE OUT OF NEW YORK STATE BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE" https://www.flickr.com/photos/198939759@N05/53123919220/in/dateposted-public/ Jb1929 (talk) 20:57, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Oak Beach Inn


text:
Terminal Link

The Terminal Link (formerly Link Train) is an automated people mover (APM) at Toronto Pearson International Airport in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada. The wheelchair-accessible train runs 24 hours a day, seven days a week and is completely free-of-charge to ride. In 2012, it transported 17,000 passengers daily, 60 to 70% of whom were airport staff.

History
The original proposal for an automated people mover system at Pearson Airport was submitted in May 2002. Six months later, on November 15, 2002, a CA$55-million contract was signed with DCC Doppelmayr Cable Car GmbH of Wolfurt, Austria, followed by four years of construction, and the system opened to the public on July 6, 2006. The service initially operated alongside its predecessor, the Link shuttle bus system.

The system cost $150 million.

Design and rolling stock
The Terminal Link uses a pair of Cable Liner trains, each composed of seven permanently-coupled cars. They use a cable-hauled, drive and tension system. Each train has capacity for 175 passengers with baggage (25 per car: 17 standing, 8 seated) or 2,500 passengers per hour per direction (pphpd).

The two trains, plus a small work car, cost a total of CA$56 million when delivered. They were refurbished in 2013, and received a new paint scheme, new seats, and a seventh car (they were originally delivered and used as six-car trains).

Stations and operation
The two fully elevated lines, running side-by-side, are 1.5 km long, and have a one-way travel time of four minutes. They serve three stations:
 * Terminal 1
 * Terminal 3
 * Viscount (long-term parking on Airport Road)

Both lines operate independently in shuttle mode with a total capacity of up to 2,180 pphpd. The trains run on rubber tires on a smooth steel surface and all propulsion is provided by the cable. The absence of onboard motors, braking systems and gearboxes eliminates excessive noise, oil spills from the trains, and dust from brakes. Doppelmayr asserts that a cable-driven APM is the most environmentally responsible solution for transportation in high density applications.

Disruptions
On March 30, 2009, the Link Train was put out of service for extensive maintenance due to engineering design flaws. During this time, service was replaced by an inter-terminal shuttle bus contracted to Penetang-Midland Coach Lines. Normal service resumed in July 2009.

On March 16, 2013, the Link Train was shut down for approximately eight months during construction of the Union Pearson Express. The trains were refurbished during this time and received a seventh car, new seats, and a new paint scheme.

Connections
The Union Pearson Express airport rail link service between Pearson Airport and Union Station in Downtown Toronto opened on June 6, 2015, in time for the 2015 Pan American Games. It directly serves Terminal 1, with a connection to Terminal 3 via the Terminal Link.

A number of public transport bus services in the GTA have a stop on the lower level of Terminal 1; these include the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC), MiWay, Brampton Transit, and GO Transit. The TTC has an additional stop on the lower level at Terminal 3, served after departing Terminal 1. At Viscount station, connections to MiWay and Brampton Transit's Züm can be made.

As originally proposed, Line 5 Eglinton was to connect Pearson Airport with Scarborough by 2018 as part of the Transit City plan. However, when the four Transit City lines were found to be $2.4 billion over their funding envelope in January 2010, parts of the network were deferred, including the western section of the Eglinton LRT. A future extension could eventually reach the airport, completing the line as envisioned. As of 2020 planning for the western extension is underway and Metrolinx hopes to complete the line by 2030–31.

title: Terminal Link


text:
Notorious MSG

Notorious MSG is a performing trio of Asian American rappers founded in 2002 in Chinatown, Manhattan, New York City. Their songs are parodies of gangster rap mixed with Asian American culture, featuring lyrics about gangster lifestyles and Chinese food and boasting innuendos regarding women. Their group name is a parody of Brooklyn rapper The Notorious B.I.G., with "MSG" referring to monosodium glutamate, a sodium additive commonly used in East Asian cuisines.

History
The group says that they all met in the kitchen of the Chinese restaurant in which they worked. It has been suggested that they have more middle-class origins, pointing to evidence which includes a reference to Cornell University in one of their songs.

Group members

 * Hong Kong Fever: The ringleader; from Kowloon Bay, Hong Kong; worked as a waiter.
 * Down-Lo Mein: (or D-Lo), the "Yellow Gigolo". From Ping-tun, Taiwan; worked as a cook.
 * Futomaki: One of the original members; had to leave the group due to the deportation by the INS in 2003; from Japan; worked as a cook.
 * Funky Buddha: (September 8, 1973 — October 2, 2005). Real name Benson Lam. Replaced Futomaki; from mainland China; worked as a dishwasher; according to the group, Funky Buddha was supposedly killed outside of a restaurant in Chinatown in a drive-by shooting.
 * The Hunan Bomb: The Killing Machine, Replaced Funky Buddha after Funky Buddha's untimely death; from Inchon, South Korea; used to make a living as an underground fighter.

Supporting members

 * Noodles, drummer. From Hiroshima, Japan.
 * Billy D. Wang, guitarist. From Hollywood, Florida.
 * Mr. Lucky, bass guitarist. Also from Japan.
 * Angus Wong.

In 2006, PRI's The World reported that the trio was in negotiations with Comedy Central to develop a series.

Notorious MSG's website had a few singles for download. Their first cut, "Wok the Party", was received with mediocre fanfare. Shortly thereafter, they released three singles (such as Chinatown Hustler) that showed their potential for splicing rhymes to background beats, and garnered much popularity.

Live performances
In 2003 and 2004 Notorious MSG started to give small, organized concerts, generally to a few hundred people at any given time. One of their earliest performances was given at Rutgers University. Their first West Coast performance, given in February 2005, just outside Los Angeles, was part of a night of Asian-themed stand up comedy.

They performed on August 4 and 5 at the Vans Warped Tour 2007 (Nassau Coliseum and Raceway Park, NJ).

In recent years, the Notorious MSG has also performed in various music venues in New York City, such as Bowery Ballroom, CBGB's (just before it closed), Santos Party House and Brooklyn Bowl.

After concerts they stay around to mingle with the audience, sign autographs and have their pictures taken. The members stay in character during and after the event.

Discography
In the Fall of 2004, Notorious MSG released their first album, Die Hungry. It is approximately 35 minutes, with four interludes and eight songs, of which one is a remix.

Track list:
 * 1) Intro
 * 2) Straight out of Canton
 * 3) Heat it Up
 * 4) Hong Kong Heartbreak (Sketch)
 * 5) Dim Sum Girl
 * 6) Chinese Funk
 * 7) Buddha Time (Sketch)
 * 8) Egg Rollin'
 * 9) Last Meal (Sketch)
 * 10) Streets of Chinatown
 * 11) Yello Fever (feat. Whip Montez)
 * 12) Straight out of Canton (Iron Wok Remix)

Another album, Hard Money, was due to be released in December 2006, but was delayed.

The Lunch Money EP was released in April 2007 under Cordless Recordings.

Track List:
 * 1) Pimp It
 * 2) No Good Muthabitch
 * 3) Chinatown Hustler
 * 4) Warlord
 * 5) Last Showdown
 * 6) Dim Sum Girl

They released their first full-length album Heavy Ghetto in May 2011

Track List:
 * 1) Grandmaster
 * 2) Red Tonight
 * 3) Chinese Jeans
 * 4) Hell Up In Hong Kong
 * 5) Lunch Break
 * 6) Shanghai Superfly
 * 7) Schoolhousin'
 * 8) Lonely G
 * 9) Beef Street
 * 10) This Is Rock N' Roll

Heavy Ghetto was also released in 12" Vinyl on November 25, 2011.

Singles

 * 1) "Straight Out of Canton", whose name borrows from Straight Outta Compton by N.W.A. The single is different from the original version heard on Die Hungry, featuring new instrumental pieces.
 * 2) "F.O.B. (Fresh off the Boat) For Life", a song boasting about their physical attributes and skills. This song is nowhere to be found on Die Hungry.
 * 3) "Dim Sum Girl", a love ballad about the heartbreak of Hong Kong Fever from his former love, a dim sum girl (woman pushing around carts of dim sum in Chinese restaurants). It was featured in a Chinese reality television show.
 * 4) "Kowloon Bay", a love ballad similar in flavor to Dim Sum Girl where Hong Kong Fever reminisces about his first love back in Kowloon Bay (a district in Hong Kong).
 * 5) "Chinatown Hustler", a song about the life of a Chinatown gangster. This is also the single in which The Hunan Bomb is first heard. The music video officially aired on August 14, 2006. It is found on the video game original soundtrack of "Wet".
 * 6) "Traditional Roughnecks"
 * 7) "Old Shanghai" This song has been very hard to locate, since it was made very early on in the formation of Notorious MSG. Drinking a cup of Oolong Tea ("For days of Old Shanghai my dear, For days of Old Shanghai, We'll drink a cup of oolong tea, For the days of Old Shanghai") is the main action that is performed in the song's lyrics.

Music videos

 * 1) "Straight Out of Canton", their first music video, features scenes of working in the kitchen and raising hell in the streets of the Chinatown ghetto.
 * 2) "Chinatown Hustler", features the life of a Chinatown gangster. It's a hard life when you're driving a pimpin' car around town, selling drugs, breaking up gambling parties and cavorting with ladies of the night.
 * 3) "Red Tonight" features the Notorious MSG jamming in a Chinatown rock club, along with a group of hard-partying friends.
 * 4) "Wonton Violence" has them dressed in leather and sunglasses showing off how tough they are in a martial arts gym.

Schoolhousin' videos
A web series on lessons from the Chinatown hood, as told by the Notorious MSG. All videos can be viewed on the band's YouTube channel.
 * 1) Schoolhousin': The MSG Web Series - Intro to the new "Schoolhousin'" web series
 * 2) Episode 1: "For the Ladies" - Get schooled on how to attract the ladies. It's an illustrated guide on how true beauty comes from within.
 * 3) Episode 2: "Dirty Deeds" - An important lesson about dating and the details that are shared amongst friends/bruthas/Chinatown pimps. When is it too much?
 * 4) Schoolhousin': A Halloween Special - Turn off the lights, grab the Holy water and be prepared to learn a lesson in fear, Chinatown style!
 * 5) Episode 3: "Chinatown Chat" - This lesson will address some of the issues one must face to successfully grease your noodle without disturbing the other cooks in the kitchen.
 * 6) Episode 4: "Stress is for Suckas" - This episode documents the raw and brutal reality that many pimps have had to face in times of great stress.
 * 7) Schoolhousin' Safety: Look Before You Cook - Get schooled on why dancing like a freak in the kitchen isn't always a good idea.
 * 8) Episode 5: "Apple Jackin'" - When your roommates eat your Apple Jacks without permission, they must be punished swiftly and without mercy. This is how to survive in the Chinatown hood.
 * 9) Episode 6: "Egg Rollin'" - The MSG are about to blaze up their "family recipe" egg-rolls. When three unsuspecting ladies (The Gyoza Girls) arrive on the scene the recipe becomes one for disaster.

title: Notorious MSG


text:
User talk:Eileendoe

Welcome
Hello , and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Double Blue (Talk) 03:48, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Editing tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style

Please be sure to tag your images with correct copyright notices or they are in danger of being deleted. See: Cheers, Double Blue  (Talk) 03:54, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Picture tutorial,
 * Image use policy,
 * Image description page, and
 * Image copyright tags.

Image copyright problem with Image:Ticket-machines.JPG
Thanks for uploading Image:Ticket-machines.JPG. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).

The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Wikipedia are open content, public domain, and fair use. Find the appropriate template in Image copyright tags and place it on the image page like this:.

Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Thank you. IGEL 22:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Ticket-vending.JPG
Thanks for uploading Image:Ticket-vending.JPG. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).

The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Wikipedia are open content, public domain, and fair use. Find the appropriate template in Image copyright tags and place it on the image page like this:.

Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Thank you. IGEL 23:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Image:64-girl-mom-grandpa.JPG listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:64-girl-mom-grandpa.JPG, has been listed at. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in its not being deleted. Thank you. —MetsBot 19:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC) — J3ff 12:03, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:75-ttukseom-resort-subway.JPG
Thanks for uploading Image:75-ttukseom-resort-subway.JPG. The image page currently doesn't specify who created the image, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created the image yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the image on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the image yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the image also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture then you can use GFDL to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the image qualifies as fair use, please read fair use, and then use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other images, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of image pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. -- Carnildo 09:51, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Eileendoe


text:
Cobb Field

Cobb Field was a baseball park located in Billings, Montana from 1932 to 2007. It was originally named Athletic Park and opened as Cobb Field on May 4, 1948, after renovations. It was the home of the Billings Mustangs, the Pioneer League Rookie Affiliate of the Cincinnati Reds, from 1948-2007. Cobb Field was named after Bob Cobb, who was responsible for bringing the Mustangs to Billings. It also hosted home games for local American Legion baseball teams. In 2006, the stadium welcomed the re-formed NCAA baseball team from nearby Montana State University Billings. From March to May, home games were played at the field.

Features
Cobb Field had a natural grass surface. The dimensions were 335 feet to left, 405 feet to center, and 325 feet to right. Cobb Field sat 4,200, though crowds had been known to eclipse 5,000. The stadium was primarily made up of the same wood used when it had been built and had shown substantial wear. Many areas of the stadium had needed wooden boards to be installed over holes in the floor.

Cobb Field's concessions had undergone a drastic overhaul in its last few years. In addition to the basic concession items, the Mustangs added the "Cobb Grill" and "Betisse's Bullpen", a patio on the left field line where Mustangs fans can enjoy a beer and roam about freely. "Betisse's Bullpen" also hosted pre-game tailgate parties.

Cobb Field film
Producers Craig Lindvahl and Joseph Fatheree created a film about the ballpark entitled Cobb Field, A Day at the Ballpark. The film gives a view of the world of minor league baseball from the eyes of the ballpark. It was shot during the final weeks of Cobb Field's existence. The film won Mid-America Emmys in three categories: Promotional Video, Musical Composition, and Photography. Lindvahl and Fatheree teach a film class at Effingham High School in Effingham, IL. Some of their students helped in the filming of the movie. Three of these students helped in the filming of Cobb Field and also won Mid-America Emmys for their film work.

New stadium
On November 8, 2006, a $12.5 million stadium levy passed (with a 53% majority 'for' vote) allowing construction of a new stadium at the Cobb Field location. Construction began in the Spring of 2007 and Cobb Field was torn down after the 2007 season. The new stadium opened as Dehler Park on June 29, 2008.

title: Cobb Field


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/20 GOTO 10

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was Merge with Goto. Golbez 19:01, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

20 GOTO 10
This article was previously marked as speedy for being "not encyclopedic", but that is not a criterion for speedy. This article is about a line of programming code used in a simple program. I abstain. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:51, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with GOTO. Useful demonstration, but does not require its own article. On a side note, I remember writing those little programs... ah, the good old days... -- BD2412 talk 03:55, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
 * Keep it. 11,000 Google hits. . -- Barfooz  (talk)  05:56, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, this is obviously a hello world type thing and shouldn't be merged with anything else. Kappa 07:23, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * What the hey? An entire article about a line of program code? This is useful information, but not encyclopedic as its own article. Why not have an article for 30 I=I+1 or 40 IF A$="Y" THEN 60 as well? Merge with GOTO.   — J I P | Talk 07:25, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Please read the article, not just the title. Kappa 09:48, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I did read the article. How else could I have said "this is useful information"? The article's contents are useful, but they belong in the GOTO article, not in an article about one, essentially entirely random, line of program code. If I had based my judgement solely on the title, I would most likely have slapped a speedy delete tag on the article.   — J I P | Talk 09:57, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree that it is notable, but it should be merged with GOTO. the wub (talk) 07:48, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge - with Gotoor with BASIC programming language - of which this is an example. Yes, I can get nostalgic too, but Goto is/was one of many keywords in that language. If kept then expect to see articles on 'next n' 'for a=1 to 6' 'load ""', poke, peek, etc - each with arbitrary variables and numbers before and after them. (If you are under 27, then please abstain as you will not know what we're talking about) --Doc (?) 08:23, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Article GOTO Merge. Would be far more useful in expanding the article "Goto" -- AllyUnion (talk) 08:54, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not about GOTO. Kappa 13:16, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with GOTO. If we keep this we set precedent for keeping "30 GOTO 10", "60 GOTO 20", etc. It's best to keep as an example of GOTO. Mgm|(talk) 09:12, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * This title gets the most hits. What program would "30 goto 10" represent? Kappa 13:16, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * What program do you think "20 GOTO 10" represents? This isn't the name of the program.  (That would be something like "HELLO.BAS".)  It's just one line of code from the program.  Programmers do not refer to this program by the name "20 GOTO 10". And there are plenty of other programs that happen to contain this line of code, such as this one or this one, that have nothing whatever to do with this article.  Programmers refer to these as infinite loops. The only thing that "20 GOTO 10" is actually the name of is, ironically, an album. Uncle G 18:38, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
 * The article about hello world programs does comprise examples in many programming languages. The hello world program article is not entitled 10 PRINT "Hello World", after one line of code in one "hello world" program in one particular programming language. Drawing an analogy to hello world program also draws our attention to infinite loop. And, I often RENUMbered from 100, anyway. ☺  This is the wrong title. Merge as per everyone else. Uncle G 11:28, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
 * You are suggesting merging this because it has "the wrong title"? It makes a horrible fit with Goto. Also it gets far more google hits (11,700) than 200 goto 100 (88). Kappa 13:16, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Google hits are a poor metric in this case, and are an entirely useless mechanism for deciding upon a sensible encyclopaedia article title here. There's an awful lot of source code indexed by Google Web, and random lines of code are not sensible encyclopaedia article titles.  The fact that, for example GOTO :LOOP gets three times that number of hits doesn't mean that it is a sensible article title.  Another example: puts("hello world") gets over a million hits, but no experienced C programmer will tell you that that is a sensible title for the article that we actually have at hello world program, even though that latter only garners roughly 55,000 hits, 1/20th of the number that the line of C code does.  The best solution is transwiki to Wikibooks and then merge to Wikibooks:QBasic:Flow Control, since this is really the annotated development of one specific small BASIC program.  But since JIP thinks that the article should be kept, a merger, either to infinite loops or to GOTO, is a compromise.  Uncle G 18:38, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
 * Using the default increment the next line number after 100 is 110, not 200, by the way. Uncle G 18:38, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
 * Merge with GOTO. An article based on a command should be in that command, anything else is plain stupid. I'll happily do the merge myself Proto 15:57, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not an article based on a command. Kappa 17:03, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, if the focus of the article is the line of code "20 GOTO 10", which it is purported to be, it is. The description of this line of code given in the article "repeats the PRINT command in the program without stopping", is, simply, false.  (I've linked to two examples above where "20 GOTO 10" doesn't "repeat PRINT commands" at all.)  If the focus is not "20 GOTO 10", then this isn't about the line of code, but about a specific program containing that and another line of code, and the article is at the very least mistitled because the line of code is not the name of the program, as already explained. Uncle G 18:38, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
 * Delete drini ☎ 18:39, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge to GOTO or BASIC programming language or even Infinite loop if we have to keep something, or just delete, but either way, do not redirect this title. I've been a programmer since 1977 starting with BASIC, and I can confirm the arguments made by JIP, Doc, and Uncle G.  Kappa's logic completely escapes me (a statement which itself should be in an unterminated loop).  Barno 19:32, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. If redirected, it should goto Infinite loop, not Goto.  "Merge" doesn't make sense because there is nothing in the text worth preserving.  Google stats are very slippery here:  There are 63,800 hits for "GOTO 10", of which only 11,700 are for "10 GOTO 20", 4590 for "10 GOTO 10", 1260 for "20 GOTO 20", etc. -R. S. Shaw 20:11, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I revise my vote to delete or merge into Infinite loop. The infinite loop article could use a simpler example (after all, the reader doesn't know too much about programming).  The 20 GOTO 10 program would do nicely, and from what I gather has been used as a such a teaching exercise. -R. S. Shaw 02:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. for and while(1) are even more common programming constructs, but we don't have (and don't need) articles on them. --Carnildo 21:53, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with Infinite loop or Goto. Flawiki 23:45, 2005 Jun 9 (UTC)
 * Revising my vote to Delete due to Carnildo's comments, and also because the 20 GOTO 10 seems a poor index for one seeking information about either infinite loops or BASIC's GOTO. Even in classic BASIC there might be nineteen lines of instructions before it, some of them terminating with STOPs or containing other infinite loops (the possibilities are, shall I dare say, infinite?). Flawiki 22:27, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
 * I challenge you to find a single mention of this with more than one other line Kappa 22:33, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * In google? I don't know if I can.  If that's the criterion then I'd concede the point, but I don't believe it is. Flawiki 22:58, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
 * easy. From the first page of Google Web results, even.  This is not the name of the program, nor is it an article title that programmers will look for, nor is the occurrence or meaning of this line of code as specific as this article erroneously says it to be. The thing that this is the name of is an album. Uncle G 03:44, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)
 * I believe that this album is indeed named after the program. The fact that someone would choose this particular line as an album name proves it has more significance than the sum of its parts. Kappa 04:45, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It proves nothing of the sort. Musicians will name albums, bands, and songs after all sorts of things, including error messages, bus routes, and code to access non-existent memory addresses on the Sinclair Spectrum.  And the album isn't named after the program for the simple reason that this isn't the name of the program for it to be named after, any more than the several example lines of code already given by me and others are names of programs.  Uncle G 14:12, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect to GOTO or infinite loop. -Sean Curtin 06:54, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge to Goto - even if this is a meme, '20 goto 10' is not the usual title thereof. Radiant_ >|< 09:23, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * Do not redirect concur with Barno - or else why not redirects from evey other imaginable program line number? Either merge or delete (I don't really care which) --Doc (?) 09:49, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it could be restricted to redirects from titles with over 1,000 relevant google hits. Kappa 09:56, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * merge and redirect seems fair to me Yuckfoo 20:28, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep a decent article, far better than school ones.  Grue   18:30, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * An article on the album might be decent. This article is actually a pretty poor one, containing factual errors. Uncle G 03:44, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)
 * Delete nad replace with an article on the album. There are so many ways to make trivial programs (like while 1). Karol 08:01, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with goto Celestianpower

 * Keep. This is a legitimate example of an infinite loop, or amusing example of use of goto. Could therefore belong in either Goto or Infinite Loop and be legitimately referenced in either. In itself it is not a very sensible article. Good programming style is never to write the same thing twice, so should be in a form where it can be referenced from either of the others. How else do you reference an item relevant to two articles on distinct subjects except to make it an article itself?Sandpiper 10:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Then why did you vote keep not merge? Superm401 | Talk 20:12, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * because if I was writing a database I would reference information where it was needed and store it in one place only. So I would make two references to the goto example, one in each place where it was relevant, and keep it separately. Perhaps wiki does not do things like that?Sandpiper 15:47, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not keep. Merge, redirect, delete... not sure, but not keep. DS 12:07, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Very strong delete. Dancing around useless code snippet that is not even funny. Should we also have articles while (true); or while (*s++ = *t++); ? This should be encyclopedia and not garbage bin. Pavel Vozenilek 18:12, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge with goto and redirect. However, I am skeptical of some of the assertions in the article.  I.E. ""20 GOTO 10" is a program that is well known to BASIC programmers" and "the first program many of them have ever learned."  They need references.  I don't think it should be kept as its own article because it is not comprehensive enough on its own.  That doesn't mean the topic isn't interesting.  It just means it should be discussed as part of a greater context, in this case goto. Superm401 | Talk 20:17, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


text:
Talk:Worcester Worcesters

Comment by 64.136.26.227
Regarding the latest history revision of Worcester’s 19th century National League team, they were called the Brown Stockings aka Ruby Legs. I don’t care what any revisionist writer says as that is his opinion, nothing more. There may not be any contemporary accounts of the name, (Remember, they played in the 1800's) but that does not mean the names did not exist. There are numerous historical documents referring to “Brown Stockings” and “Ruby Legs” and the names did not just come out of nowhere. There’s just too many references. According to the Society for American Baseball Research, one in particular refers to a National League game played at League Park in Cleveland, Ohio on 6/9/1881 - “Cleveland Spiders 5 Worcester Brown Stockings 3".  If the SABR historical text has the exact date, park it was played in and final score, then chances are the nicknames are correct as well.  Think about it.....  He also mentions the team was expelled by the league in 1882 because of minuscule attendance.  That there was no direct purchase by Alfred Reach and Colonel John Rogers, who would later change the name to the Phillies.  Can he prove they were expelled? -- Originally posted to article by  at 03:46, 9 Jun 2005
 * I agree with you, I think someone was a little zealous in their edit. SABR, which you pointed out, Baseball-Reference.com, and Retrosheet.org all refer to this team as the Ruby Legs.  Many teams from the 1800s have been given a permanent modern name with city followed by their nickname, even though the teams were referred to in different ways when they played. Neonblak 13:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

MLB says otherwise ... sort of
This link to John Clarkson's career stats at mlb.com:

shows that Major League Baseball recognizes the "Brown Stockings" as a name, though, when you try to find them, they do not exist anywhere else on the site. LonelyBeacon 18:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Team name
I apologize if I ruffled any feathers with the page move. There have been a recent rash of changes to the Phillies pages changing pipelinks which originally linked to the Worcester Worcesters to the Ruby Legs. As to the current name, does "Worcester Worcesters" really make sense? I'm not a big fan of keeping the nicknames because they were never officially adopted, per the source I provided after the page move. Then again, "Worcester Worcesters" is... well... dumb. Would we be amiss changing to the "1880 Worcesters season" and the like? KV5 ( Talk  •  Phils ) 19:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Worcester Worcesters I don't like at all.. Personally, I'd rather it remain the Ruby Legs, since that is what Baseball Reference and many of the other current sources use to talk about this team.Spanneraol (talk) 20:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Current sources, yes, but it seems obvious to me that there's a case of mistaken identity, from the quote provided in the source. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 20:24, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Still, if someone is looking up information about this team are they more likely to look for Worcester Worcesters or Worcester Ruby Legs? We should stick with current sources for our naming conventions.. If we have to go back to contemporary names then we would have to change many of the other team pages as well.Spanneraol (talk) 20:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Like... what? KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 22:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I mentioned the Alleghenys to you before as one, although the page is not named that. The early teams should just be called "1882 Alleghenys season" or something similar. This also came up with "Kelly's Killers" not long ago, as they were generally just that, with no Cincinnati attached, when they weren't called (confusingly) the Reds. All the Boston Americans articles would have to be changed to just "Boston". Going back further, a lot of NA teams would have to be fixed (most prominently, the early Athletics were really "Athletic of Philadelphia"). And that's just off the top of my head. -Dewelar (talk) 05:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

If they had no special nickname, they would have been called "Worcester", or "the Worcesters", but never "the Worcester Worcesters". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 23:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is what I would prefer to show. Like I mentioned to Dewelar, the move to the current name was a knee-jerk reaction from me because it's the old name of the page. "Worcesters" or "Worcester Baseball Club" would be the most appropriate names for this page, IMHO. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 23:52, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It was bound to happen... this subject to come up again. I am fine the "Worcesters" if it must be changed from the "Ruby Legs", for the purpose of historical accuracy. Whatever this settles on, I will change my Featured List over as well. Neonblak talk  -  05:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Worcester Ruby Legs" or just "Worcesters", as Bugs says above the page should certainly not remain as it is. -Dewelar (talk) 05:19, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that, in this case, "Worcesters" is more correct. Because the external sources say "Ruby Legs" at places(which I still think is mistaken identity), we should just have redirects. That's what they are for. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 12:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Using "Ruby Legs" would probably fall under the WP:COMMONNAME guideline. If your source is accurate, then it might be slightly more correct to call them the Brown Stockings anyway, but then almost nobody would know that. -Dewelar (talk) 13:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The core problem is well-meaning modern historians trying to retrofit old-style team names to modern standards. Allegheny is a good example. They were shown as Allegheny in the standings. That was the name of the city. Teams were sometimes called by nicknames, if they had any (Chicago White Stockings) or more often than not by just their name followed by an artificial plural: The Chicagos, the Bostons, the Alleghenys (not the "Alleghenies"). "Kelly's Killers" is an interesting study. Their "official" name was apparently Cincinnati Reds in the AA. However, there was already a Reds team (the current franchise) in the NL. Because Mike Kelly was such a prominent figure in that flamboyant (and mostly incompetent) team, the media dubbed the team "Kelly's Killers", and probably not intending to be complimentary. That unofficial nickname turned up in Lee Allen's late-1940s history of the Cincinnati Reds. He wrote about them with the same level of amusement as the local writers of 1891 must have (sports were not taken nearly as seriously then as they are today), and referred to the club only as "Kelly's Killers", not as the Reds, and certainly not as the "Cincinnati Kelly's Killers". That would have made no more sense than to call the Yankees the "New York Bronx Bombers". I don't know about you, but I've never seen that usage. It's just "Bronx Bombers", which is known among fans to be equivalent to "New York Yankees". Regarding Worcester, as far as I know it was just plain Worcester, or "the Worcesters" as I discussed earlier. It would be nice if someone living near there could do some primary-source research and find out what they were actually called by the local media. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:00, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Since the Athletics were mentioned, that's another interesting case. In the early days, nearly all the clubs were based in New York or within a short train trip from New York, and generally the city name was not mentioned except formally (Mutual of New York, Eckford of Brooklyn, Athletic of Philadelphia, Atlantic of Brooklyn, etc.) because it was understood by the fans. So the teams were listed in standings as Mutual, Eckford, Athletic, Atlantic, etc., and there was no problem. As professional ball became organized and widespread, the city name started to come into it. I have not studied the local media coverage, but I would guess that NL entry in Philadelphia was called the "Philadelphias" originally and, in an apparent lack of imagination, became shortened to "Phillies" over time. The name "Athletic" for the NA, NL, and later AA clubs persisted. And even the early AL entry was called "Athletic" in the standings, and would have been called "Athletics" in the old style. That was soon altered to "Philadelphia" in the modern style, in the standings, and the team became commonly known as "Philadelphia Athletics". However, according to Marc Okkonen's study of uniforms, at no time during their stay in Philly did the A's actually ever display the word "Philadelphia" or the letter "P" on their jerseys and/or caps, as their NL counterparts did. It was always either the fancy letter "A" (a tradition dating to the 1860s) or the word "Athletics" (only one season, their last year in Philly). They wore their original team designation "A" proudly - and they still do, in Oakland, even if they don't necessarily know its origins. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Bugs' conjecture on the Phillies is correct: the team has never had an official name other than the Phillies, shortened from Philadelphia by the media of the time. The "Quakers" nickname was picked up by some but faded quickly, and the Blue Jays was never official. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 12:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Also "Phils", for the same reason. And it's worth pointing out that a cartooned Quaker figure (akin to the Quaker Oats guy) was being used by the baseball guides (though apparently not by the team itself) to symbolize the Phillies, as late as the 1950s. According to Okkonen, the word "Phillies" did not actually appear on the shirts until 1933. The 1920s and 1930s were a time when several teams started putting their nicknames on their shirts when they had not done so before, despite being known by these nicknames for decades earlier. Some teams were early adapters. The Cubs started wearing a bear logo inside a "C" as early as 1908. The Senators, trying in vain to establish their new official name, wore "Nationals" on their shirts in 1905 (a century later, the Nationals name looks like it will stick). But it was the 1920s and 1930s before nicknames were routinely displayed on uniforms. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hence why the Phillies have honored Grover Cleveland Alexander and Chuck Klein with unique letter "P"s instead of a retired number—they didn't use numbers until they started using full uniform names, but the lettering used was unique. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 13:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So... we have any sort of agreement here? Looks like most people are confortable with the "Worcesters". With all other variations re-directing that. Neonblak  talk  -  14:32, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think what we really need to do is decide how we want to represent team names at an overall level. We have two choices: either we move this page back to Ruby Legs, which is how the team is represented in all the well-known sources (including Retrosheet), or we move this page to just "Worcesters" AND ALSO move every other old-time franchise to the most accurate name. Either of those is acceptable to me, but doing this for JUST THIS ONE TEAM wouldn't be. -Dewelar (talk) 15:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What we really need is for someone with access to microfilm of the local Worcester newspapers of that era to spend some time and find out which of the distantly-removed sources (if any) has it right. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That would be useful, yes -- assuming we're going the accuracy route and not the "what does everyone call them" route :) . Technically, calling them "Worcesters" probably violates WP:COMMONNAME. If we're going to call them "Worcesters", then we need to carve out an exception, like we did for player pages. -Dewelar (talk) 16:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I explained earlier, "Worcester" was the name of the club, and "the Worcesters" was simply a variant on that, like "the Chicagos" or "the Bostons". "Worcesters" is not an "official" nickname, it's just the style that media often used to refer to ball clubs in those days. If the veracity of this "Ruby Legs" stuff is in doubt, then revert back to the official name of the club, which is not "Worcester Worcesters", it's just plain "Worcester" - or "Worcester Baseball Club", to put it more fully. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 16:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I am aware of that. It just has nothing to do with my point. Calling them "Worcester" is in just as much violation as "Worcesters" would be. Much as we might wish for page titles to be about accuracy, they are, sadly, not -- or, at least, not as much as we would like. -Dewelar (talk) 16:44, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The baseball encyclopedias that I have simply call them "Worcester", without getting into the issue of nicknames. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:11, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I was just re-reading the part of Lee Allen's history of the Cincinnati Reds, in which he talked about how the Worcester club (no nickname given or suggested) managed to drum the Cincinnati club out of the league following the 1880 season. Worcester itself was dumped after the 1882 season, and the current Reds, which began in the AA in 1882, are still with us, and Allen takes a measure of glee in that. Part of the issue is that Worcester is a mere blip in the history of MLB. A SABR researcher named Nowlin extensively researched the early years of the Red Sox and discovered that the "Pilgrims" nickname was largely a myth. The Red Sox, of course, are a major part of baseball lore and there figures to be interest in that subject. No one has bothered to do likewise for Worcester, apparently, because no one cares. Worcester spent less time in the National League than Providence did, and they would be totally forgotten except for one incredible June day in 1880 when a young pitcher named Lee Richmond threw a perfect game for them. FYI, the newspaper account referred to the team as "the Worcesters", and their opponent as "the Clevelands". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:21, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict - twice now - cut it out and let me answer you already...) I cannot verify that. I was forced to move on short notice a few months ago and donated many of my baseball print sources to the local library (those suckers are heavy!), so that may very well be true. Every major on-line source (Retrosheet, Baseball Reference, Baseball Almanac, Baseball Chronology, and many more, although mlb.com has nothing beyond 'WOR') calls them the Ruby Legs. So, that brings us back to my original point -- if we do this for Worcester, then we do it for ALL the old teams. Otherwise, leave it at Ruby Legs so that it's in agreement with existing standards. There's no good argument for doing anything in between. -Dewelar (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The key issue, as I see it, is where did this "Ruby Legs" come from? I have a book called Professional Baseball Franchises, by Peter Filichia, published in 1993. It attempts to list every professional ball club in the history of North America (including Canada and Mexico) since 1869 when the Cincinnati Red Stockings turned pro. There are various clubs listed under Worcester for various times (most of them minor league clubs). The 1880-82 major league club is listed as "Worcester Brown Stockings". The book has a practice of listing alternative nicknames where known, but there is nothing said about "Ruby Legs", for any time period. My guess is that some sportswriter in that time period coined that as a play on "Brown Stockings" somehow - maybe they looked more red than brown to that writer - just as the Chicago White Sox are also called the "Pale Hose". Where did it come from? In the case of the Boston "Pilgrims", it came from Fred Lieb, who apparently saw it somewhere, sometime, and latched onto it. I don't like to see wikipedia publish questionable information. There is an obvious conflict of sources here, and when that happens, it behooves someone (if they care enough) to go back to the sources and see where they got their information from. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and keep in mind that those various sources you cite tend to be derived from each other, so it's likely really only one source, parroted by the others. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:00, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Another possibly interesting tidbit is this entry from a 1955 book called The Encyclopedia of Sports, by Frank G. Menke, A.S. Barnes & Company, p. 30:

In 1882 the National League passed a rule requiring specific colors for each team:
 * Boston: Red
 * Buffalo: Gray
 * Chicago: White
 * Cleveland: Navy blue
 * Detroit: Old Gold
 * Providence: Light Blue
 * Troy: Green
 * Worcester: Brown

Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Just to regurgitate something that I noted two years ago (the post just above the start of this current conversation) ... not that Major League Baseball is an absolutely unquestionable source, but MLB (and by extension the National League), recognize "Brown Stockings" as the official name. You would hope that this is based on superb research carried out in the extensive libraries they have available ... though you can't be sure.  One wonders if the evolution was "Worcester Baseball Club" ... then in 1880 they are forced to start wearing brown, and like other teams, it was easier to get brown socks (or red socks, or blue socks) compared to pants and tops, and that some sports writer just started calling them the "Brown Socks" rather than "Professional Baseball Club of Worcester".  So, the team may never have actually adopted the name, but the name may have been "officially adopted by the NL/MLB afterwards.
 * This may ultimately come down to titling the article with some accepted name of today, and including a discussion of the naming problem. LonelyBeacon (talk) 18:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I just would like to know where "Ruby Legs" came from. It wouldn't likely have come from thin air. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:51, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

(outdent again, and *sigh* another edit conflict - twice again - it's like you guys don't want me pointing this out *grin*) I'm not trying to argue with you. Bugs, at least not about what the team name actually was, or about what, in an ideal world, the page name should be. It's good to have all this information, and I'm glad that you are providing it for all of our edification, and it should all be included in the article itself. What I'm trying to do, given the constraints under which we operate within Wikipedia, is to hammer out some guidelines for franchise page names which address both (a) consistency between all of our articles, and (b) not running afoul of Wikipedia's own guidelines. -Dewelar (talk) 18:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The argument I'm making is that the "common name" rule does not apply. There are very few fans who ever heard of this club, let alone have a shared "common name" for it. And the sources are in conflict with each other. The various electronic sources you pointed out are, in fact, a single source, which conflict with printed sources. But if you call it simply "Worcester", with some appropriate parenthetic qualifier, then there is no issue. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And around and around we go...as I said above, if you believe that WP:COMMONNAME, and others agree with you (my mind is not made up at this point), then we will need to carve out an exception similar to WP:NC-BASE, which as it stands applies ONLY TO PLAYER ARTICLES. Assuming such an exception is accepted by Wikipedia, that still leaves us with coming up with our own convention. That is a point on which I'm still waiting for your input, because until we have it, like it or not, this page MUST remain back where it was. -Dewelar (talk) 19:11, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Here's the answer. "Ruby Legs" is false, pure and simple. It was a misinterpretation of a headline. "Ruby Legs" was being used as a synonym for Boston - the Red Stockings. The author of this book maintains that the club was simply "Worcester". No "Brown Stockings", definitely no "Ruby Legs". I would call it "Worcester (National League 1880-1882)" or something like that. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 19:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 * OK, so, I'm assuming at this point that either you're not reading what I'm saying, and are just tossing out stuff as you feel like it, or you just don't care to actually make progress on this discussion. Let me know if I'm wrong, because at this point I'm ready just to move it back and be done. -Dewelar (talk) 19:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I don't understand what you're asking. The original question seemed to be, "What is the proper name of this article?" And the answer is most assuredly NOT "Worcester Ruby Legs" nor "Worcester Worcesters". You could use "Worcester Brown Stockings", as we have a couple of printed sources that assert that. I would say "Worcester (National League 1880-1882)", while a bit wordy, is probably the best answer. But you can't use "Worcester Ruby Legs", because that is demonstrably false, and it is against the rules to knowingly present false information, regardless of citations that assert something is true - because it puts wikipedia in the position of knowingly furthering that false information. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 19:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 * There are two points here. First of all, I do not believe that "knowingly presenting false information" refers to article naming. If it did, then there would be no article called, to pick a particularly controversial example, Jesus. That was not the man's name, but is what he came to be called via later transliteration of his real name (Yeshua, or something similar - even in Latin his name would have been "Iesus"). That's exactly the type of thing that WP:COMMONNAME is meant to address.
 * As far as what I'm asking, it is this: what should our naming convention for franchise pages be? Should it follow WP:COMMONNAME, in which case this (and other similar pages) will be called one thing (whether that be "Worcester Ruby Legs" - however distasteful and incorrect that may be - "Worcester Brown Stockings", or perhaps something else entirely)? Or should it strive for accuracy, in which case this (and other similar pages) will be called something else (in this case, your "Worcester (National League 1880-1882) would be the chosen name, but we must ALSO change a BUNCH of other pages)? As you can see, how we proceed will depend on how we answer this question, and I think we would all appreciate your input on it. -Dewelar (talk) 19:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 * OK, I think I see what you're getting at. Let's use a diverse analogy, the Bayeux Tapestry. That's the "common name" of that medieval work. In the very first sentence, it points out that it's not a tapestry, it's an embroidery. You could take the same approach here. You could keep calling it "Worcester Ruby Legs" on the grounds that that's the "common" name (which is questionable, but let's suppose that's the case) and right away explain that it wasn't really the team's name. Then you don't have to change any other articles, and you can redirect other name variants to the "Ruby Legs" article. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 20:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, exactly. What I am hoping to do, using this particular discussion as a springboard, is determine a more global policy for WP:BASEBALL. Once the global policy is set, THEN what the name of the article should be can be established more readily using this pre-established convention. Obviously once we've got something here we will have to take it to the project, but let's see if we can come up with a proposal first.
 * As for the "Ruby Legs" issue...isn't sources copying each other pretty much how a "common name" gets established in the first place *grin*? -Dewelar (talk) 20:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, and that's how misinformation spreads throughout the internet. I would prefer that wikipedia not be an agent of that misinformation. If you want to do it the right way, then lose the nicknames altogether for 19th century teams, and use names that are unique, factual, and not dependent on what someone thinks a club's nickname was in 1880. Nicknames are really irrelevant, which is why baseball encyclopedias have tended to ignore them, maybe until recent years. You can debate all day about whether the Chicago NL club's name in 1905 should be "Colts" or "Cubs", and in fact there is no proper answer, because both were used and neither was official. But they are both under the current club, Chicago Cubs, so there's no problem there. The problem is with defunct teams, like Worcester. If you're looking for a standard, you probably need to separate current franchises from defunct franchises. Milwaukee Brewers is understood to be the current NL club, formerly an AL club, and still formerly the AL's Seattle Pilots. Milwaukee Brewers (minor league baseball team) is understood to be the long-running club in the minor league version of the AA. However, if you're really looking at an overall standard and not just this Worcester case, then this probably needs to be brought up on the project page, if it's not already there. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 21:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm not just talking about the Internet. I'm talking about true historical research as well. One person, who happens to be regarded as an authority on a subject, makes an error. Many, many other people who AREN'T authorities pick up on that error and spread it across the globe. By the time some other expert figures out the error, it's too late to change it. Unfortunately, due to its own policies, Wikipedia is pretty much bound to be just such an agent of misinformation that you (and I) would prefer that it not be. It is not our choice to make, although there are small ways in which we can combat it and put a check on it in our own little corner, at least for a while *grin*.
 * Everything you say above is perfectly true. The question is: does the project at large have the determination to set forth a new set of naming conventions that challenge WP:COMMONNAME in this way? Or will they decide it's better to go with the flow? I think the time has come to point them here and see what bubbles up. -Dewelar (talk) 21:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I see Bugs' point regarding the "Worcesters" not being a valid usage for the team. In my Worcester all-time roster, I used a book called "Boston's ballparks & arenas" written by Alan E. Foulds. He has the club as being organized in 1879 as the "Worcester Baseball Association". This seems to me a formal name for the club, no nicknames, no city pluaralized, just the straight name of the club. I am willing to re-visit ALL the team names from the 1800s to fix them all, and use this as the precedent. Neonblak  talk  -  00:48, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Philadelphia Blue Jays was never official? I have a clipping from, of all things, the Spokane Daily Chronicle dated Tuesday 1/10/1950 that says this: "Blue Jay Nickname Junked by Phillies. The Philadelphia Phillies today officially abandoned a nickname that never caught on anyway – "The Blue Jays." The Blue Jays nickname was selected rom a fan poll in 1944. But the fans, who helped select that name, never paid much attention to it. Club owner Bob Carpenter announced his club henceforth shall be knows as the Phillies – a nickname almost as old as the club itself." 108.49.32.70 (talk) 15:54, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Research into Naming
After lurking on this page for a year or so I found myself with a little spare time this week and decided to come out of (or at least temporarily suspend) wikiretirement to do some primary source research.

I looked at the game recaps from the Worcester Evening Gazette's microfiche archives for 1881 and 1882 -- a few selected dates over both summers, including pretty much all of September and the first week of October in both cases. Here's what I found:

 * Teams are generally referred to by what Baseball Bugs calls the "false plural": simply adding an "s" to the city name, e.g. the Worcesters, the Bostons, the Troys.

 * This seems not to be solely an Evening Gazette thing; text quoted from the Lowell Courier also uses the false plural.

 * Sometimes, in box scores and in standings tables, teams are referred to by abbreviations or by the city name in singular form (as would be the case today): Wor., Cleve., etc.; Worcester, Washington (not National), etc.

 * As suspected by participants in the July 2009 dicussion above, nowhere in the Worcester team's hometown newspaper's coverage do the words "Ruby Legs" or "Brown Stockings" appear. Few NL teams would seem to have had official nicknames in the early 1880s. I found only two or three exceptions: the D.C. entrant is called the Nationals of Washington, although it is also called the Washingtons. The Detroit entry of 1882 is called both the Detroits and (I found this once) the Wolverine team. Sometimes the Troy players are called the Trojans, although this may be a descriptive adjective (i.e., "those men from Troy") rather than a true team nickname (i.e. intended to pay homage to the historic Trojans of Asia Minor).

 * Although the team's official name upon its incorporation is given on the all-time roster page as Worcester Baseball Association, the contemporary press account of the team's dismissal from the league calls it the Worcester Base Ball Club ("Base Ball Gossip: Worcester Frozen Out of the League", Worcester Evening Gazette, Worcester, Mass., September 23, 1882). I don't consider this strong enough evidence to make any changes -- 19th century journalism wasn't THAT precise -- but the official name bears further investigation. Maybe the official incorporation papers can be found.

From this, and following the 2009 conversaion above, I draw the following conclusions:

 * "Worcester Worcesters" is redundant and anachronistic; nobody ever called them that.

 * In encyclopedic text -- out of consideration to the fact that the modern reader isn't used to the "false plural" -- the name of the team ought to be rendered as Worcester; or the Worcester team -- no nickname given.

 * The name of this article ought to be Worcesters; or Worcester (NL) or Worcester (National League 1880-1882), or something similar to that, or possibly Worcester Base Ball Club or Worcester Baseball Association.

 * Any mentions to "Ruby Legs" and "Brown Stockings" in Wikipedia should be constrained to notes discussing these names' (probably) incorrect use in 20th century reference materials -- until and unless we can get some verifiable primary sources establishing their use in the 1880s. It is anachronistic and misleading to use invented/retrofitted names for the Worcester franchise.

 * As noted above in July 2009, this discussion has ramifications for many of the other 1880s NL teams (and 1870s ... and 1890s? I'm no expert on when the nicknaming trend really caught on). Were the Hartfords really ever called "the Dark Blues" by their fans? Did the Troy organization ever truly adopt "Trojans" as its name?

Do with this what you will.

``` W i k i W i s t a h ``` 22:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

 * Kudos. Your research reminds me of the work that one researcher (I forget his name just now) did in reference to the early Boston Red Sox and concluded that "Pilgrims" was never used by the team and hardly ever by the sportswriters. Worcester has such a short major league history that probably almost no one has bothered to really look into it that much - and the one who did, apparently got it wrong. Nicknames were just inventions of news writers. As an example, the Chicago Cubs of the early 1900s were called "Cubs" by one newspaper and "Colts" by another - consistently. But they had no official nickname until 1906 or so, when they decided they liked "Cubs" better. And the use of the "false plural" was rampant. I've seen it in every 19th century newspaper that I've looked at. Their best sense of marketing was to promote the city they were from. "Chicagos" or "Worcesters" came naturally. And their shirts said "Chicago" and "Worcester". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

 * Yes, good research. I am happy that someone has willing to spend countless hours of their own time going through dozens of microfilm and microfiche. The overall point I was making above (I think...) was that since the available reliable online resources claimed that the "nickname" of the Worcester team was the Ruby Legs. And as I said above, I am clearly for historical accuracy. I can easily agree to name a change that reflects the research, say Worcesters (NL). This I believe would be consistent with Wikipedia values without going into the what the actually name of team would have been, i.e. Base Ball Club of Worcester or something similar. I would also support the additional scrutiny of the others mentioned above as well. A quick search of baseball-reference.com's minor league pages show at least two Worcester teams in the 1870-1880s who could have been just Worcesters as well. Neonblak talk  -  06:29, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess I didn't read all of what I wrote above, I did note that an author claims that the team was established as the "Worcester Baseball Association". So that, of course, could be used. Works well with "Worcester Baseball Association all-time roster" I might add. Neonblak talk  -  06:35, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Would certainly rather see this than the current (even though I'm the one that moved it); the current location was just to keep pace with the standard "city, nickname" pattern but the correct version would be preferred. "Worcester Baseball Association" would be best IMHO. — KV5  •  Talk  •  12:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Any of these is better than the current name, though I tend to agree with Neonblak that "Worcesters (NL)" (or, I'd add, "Worcester (NL)") is the best course of action. I don't know of any other ballclub on Wikipedia where the corporation name is used in preference to the name-as-called-by-fans.
 * Somebody mentioned above (in 2009) that the absolute best course of action would be to bring this to the Wikiproject or task force level and come up with a standardized treatment for the 19th century teams that didn't have true nicknames. Worcester is certainly one of these; as I mention above, I suspect Hartford and Troy of the NL are, as well, and someone more familiar with the subject may be able to name a few more. Without having done any research other than reading game summaries in the Worcester paper, I'm suspicious about the Cleveland "Blues" and Providence "Grays" as well. ``` W i k i W i s t a h ``` 14:35, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The traditional baseball encyclopedias generally call teams by their city and league when referencing historical stats. Team nicknames come and go, and there's a tendency among the general public nowadays to try to retrofit older teams to modern standards, in which nicknames are a vital part of the marketing effort, and are really a part of the team's name rather than being just a nickname. However, various sources stick with the old approach. The Elias Book of Baseball Records, Elias being MLB's official statistician, numbers the clubs in chronological order and lists only their city name and their operational years: Boston, Chicago, etc. No team nicknames. They do list player nicknames, i.e. "Babe" Ruth instead of "George" Ruth as the now-defunct Sporting News record book used to. The TSN books also used to list records by team and nickname, but only the current nickname, not the legacy nicknames. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:50, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

 * It's perhaps rather telling that Retrosheet, which tries to cover prominent team nicknames where possible, simply refers to the 1880-1882 Worcester club as "Worcester NL Team". No Ruby Legs, no Brown Stockings. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * But also complicating matters is the fact that that is a recent change; it hasn't always been that way. — KV5  •  Talk  •  00:59, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe they independently reached the same conclusion - that the "Ruby Legs" thing was incorrect. It's possible they have a "contact us" where someone could ask what's up. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:51, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, so...
...since everyone agrees "Worcester (NL)" or "Worcester (1880-82)" is preferable to the awful "Worcester Worcesters", who's going to change it? RMc (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't change it to "Worcester (1880-82)" because that makes it seem like the article is about the town of Worcester during that three year period. Spanneraol (talk) 23:03, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I would rather see "Worcester Baseball Association" or "Worcester (National League)" before an abbreviated version or the years. National League is a descriptor, but unless you know baseball you don't necessarily know what "national league" it's referring to. Worcester Baseball Association is clear, concise, official, and descriptive. If others disagree because it was never a commonly used name, then that's fine with me, it's just my opinion. But I'm against unnecessary abbreviations and the years invite possible confusion. — KV5  •  Talk  •  01:30, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think when we are talking about this era of baseball team names, using the official name might be the best course of action; just have every other possible name redirect to it. So if a vote were held, I'd go with "Worcester Baseball Association". One nitpick though, was baseball one word at all in the early 1880s, as opposed to "base ball" or "base-ball"? Neonblak talk  -  10:31, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It was all three. The two older usages didn't die out until about the 1910s. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:39, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd vote for "Worcester (National League)" as the best option. As far as any of us can tell, "Worcester Baseball Association" was never used except in incorporation papers, if even then, so I do question whether it really qualifies as a "common name"; press accounts and, I would presume, common parlance would call the team "Worcester" or "the Worcesters" or "the Worcester nine." Confusion by non-Americans over what "National League" means will be quickly dispelled by the lede sentence of the article. ``` W i k i W i s t a h ``` 02:19, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Worcester Worcesters


text: Talk:Next-door neighbor

title: Talk:Next-door neighbor


text:
User talk:Laser Robot

Hey there. I created the Illusion of Gaia article on 6/8/2005, but it wasn't counted, because it was right before I signed up. Eh...

Anyway, hello. Too lazy/tired to write anything in detail today. But hey, whatever.

By the way, I also created the Status Quo Antebellum and the Fruit from a forbidden tree pages. Yup.

... ah screw it. Talk is cheap.

title: User talk:Laser Robot


text:
Exact differential equation

In mathematics, an exact differential equation or total differential equation is a certain kind of ordinary differential equation which is widely used in physics and engineering.

Definition
Given a simply connected and open subset D of $$\mathbb{R}^2$$ and two functions I and J which are continuous on D, an implicit first-order ordinary differential equation of the form

 * $$I(x, y)\, dx + J(x, y)\, dy = 0,$$

is called an exact differential equation if there exists a continuously differentiable function F, called the potential function, so that
 * $$\frac{\partial F}{\partial x} = I$$

and
 * $$\frac{\partial F}{\partial y} = J.$$

An exact equation may also be presented in the following form:
 * $$I(x, y) + J(x, y) \, y'(x) = 0$$

where the same constraints on I and J apply for the differential equation to be exact.

The nomenclature of "exact differential equation" refers to the exact differential of a function. For a function $$F(x_0, x_1,...,x_{n-1},x_n)$$, the exact or total derivative with respect to $$x_0$$ is given by
 * $$\frac{dF}{dx_0}=\frac{\partial F}{\partial x_0}+\sum_{i=1}^{n}\frac{\partial F}{\partial x_i}\frac{dx_i}{dx_0}.$$

Example
The function $$F:\mathbb{R}^{2}\to\mathbb{R}$$ given by

 * $$F(x,y) = \frac{1}{2}(x^2 + y^2)+c$$

is a potential function for the differential equation

 * $$x\,dx + y\,dy = 0.\,$$

Identifying first order exact differential equations
Let the functions $M$, $N$ , $M_y$ , and $N_x$ , where the subscripts denote the partial derivative with respect to the relative variable, be continuous in the region $R: \alpha < x < \beta, \gamma < y < \delta$. Then the differential equation

$$M(x, y) + N(x, y)\frac{dy}{dx} = 0$$

is exact if and only if

$$M_y(x, y) = N_x(x, y)$$

That is, there exists a function $$\psi(x, y)$$, called a  potential function, such that

$$\psi _x(x, y) = M(x, y) \text{ and } \psi_y(x, y) = N(x, y)$$

So, in general:

$$ M_y(x, y) = N_x(x, y) \iff \begin{cases} \exists \psi(x, y)\\ \psi_x(x, y) = M(x, y)\\ \psi_y(x, y) = N(x, y) \end{cases} $$

Proof
The proof has two parts.

First, suppose there is a function $$\psi(x,y)$$ such that $$\psi_x(x, y) = M(x, y) \text{ and } \psi_y(x, y) = N(x, y)$$

It then follows that $$M_y(x, y) = \psi _{xy}(x, y) \text{ and } N_x(x, y) = \psi _{yx}(x, y)$$

Since $$M_y$$ and $$N_x$$ are continuous, then $$\psi _{xy}$$ and $$\psi _{yx}$$ are also continuous which guarantees their equality.

The second part of the proof involves the construction of $$\psi(x, y)$$ and can also be used as a procedure for solving first-order exact differential equations. Suppose that $$M_y(x, y) = N_x(x, y)$$ and let there be a function $$\psi(x, y)$$ for which $$\psi _x(x, y) = M(x, y) \text{ and } \psi _y(x, y) = N(x, y)$$

Begin by integrating the first equation with respect to $$x$$. In practice, it doesn't matter if you integrate the first or the second equation, so long as the integration is done with respect to the appropriate variable.

where $$Q(x, y)$$ is any differentiable function such that $$Q_x = M$$. The function $$h(y)$$ plays the role of a constant of integration, but instead of just a constant, it is function of $$y$$, since $$M$$ is a function of both $$x$$ and $$y$$ and we are only integrating with respect to $$x$$.

Now to show that it is always possible to find an $$h(y)$$ such that $$\psi _y = N$$.

Differentiate both sides with respect to $$y$$.

Set the result equal to $$N$$ and solve for $$h'(y)$$.

In order to determine $$h'(y)$$ from this equation, the right-hand side must depend only on $$y$$. This can be proven by showing that its derivative with respect to $$x$$ is always zero, so differentiate the right-hand side with respect to $$x$$.

Since $$Q_x = M$$,

Now, this is zero based on our initial supposition that $$M_y(x, y) = N_x(x, y)$$

Therefore,

And this completes the proof.

Solutions to first order exact differential equations
First order exact differential equations of the form

can be written in terms of the potential function $$\psi(x, y)$$

where

This is equivalent to taking the exact differential of $$\psi(x,y)$$.

The solutions to an exact differential equation are then given by

and the problem reduces to finding $$\psi(x, y)$$.

This can be done by integrating the two expressions $$M(x, y) dx$$ and $$N(x, y) dy$$ and then writing down each term in the resulting expressions only once and summing them up in order to get $$\psi(x, y)$$.

The reasoning behind this is the following. Since

it follows, by integrating both sides, that

Therefore,

where $$Q(x, y)$$ and $$P(x, y)$$ are differentiable functions such that $$Q_x = M$$ and $$P_y = N$$.

In order for this to be true and for both sides to result in the exact same expression, namely $$\psi(x, y)$$, then $$h(y)$$ must be contained within the expression for $$P(x, y)$$ because it cannot be contained within $$g(x)$$, since it is entirely a function of $$y$$ and not $$x$$ and is therefore not allowed to have anything to do with $$x$$. By analogy, $$g(x)$$ must be contained within the expression $$Q(x, y)$$.

Ergo,

for some expressions $$f(x, y)$$ and $$d(x, y)$$. Plugging in into the above equation, we find that

and so $$f(x, y)$$ and $$d(x, y)$$ turn out to be the same function. Therefore,

Since we already showed that

it follows that

So, we can construct $$\psi(x, y)$$ by doing $$\int{M(x,y) dx}$$ and $$\int{N(x, y) dy}$$ and then taking the common terms we find within the two resulting expressions (that would be $$f(x, y)$$ ) and then adding the terms which are uniquely found in either one of them - $$g(x)$$ and $$h(y)$$.

Second order exact differential equations
The concept of exact differential equations can be extended to second order equations. Consider starting with the first-order exact equation:

 * $$I\left(x,y\right)+J\left(x,y\right){dy \over dx}=0$$

Since both functions $I\left(x,y\right)$, $$J\left(x,y\right)$$ are functions of two variables, implicitly differentiating the multivariate function yields

 * $${dI \over dx} +\left({ dJ\over dx}\right){dy \over dx}+{d^2y \over dx^2}\left(J\left(x,y\right)\right)=0$$

Expanding the total derivatives gives that

 * $${dI \over dx}={\partial I\over\partial x}+{\partial I\over\partial y}{dy \over dx}$$

and that

 * $${dJ \over dx}={\partial J\over\partial x}+{\partial J\over\partial y}{dy \over dx}$$

Combining the ${dy \over dx}$ terms gives

 * $${\partial I\over\partial x}+{dy \over dx}\left({\partial I\over\partial y}+{\partial J\over\partial x}+{\partial J\over\partial y}{dy \over dx}\right)+{d^2y \over dx^2}\left(J\left(x,y\right)\right)=0$$

If the equation is exact, then ${\partial J\over\partial x}={\partial I\over\partial y}$. Additionally, the total derivative of $$J\left(x,y\right)$$ is equal to its implicit ordinary derivative ${dJ \over dx}$. This leads to the rewritten equation

 * $${\partial I\over\partial x}+{dy \over dx}\left({\partial J\over\partial x}+{dJ \over dx}\right)+{d^2y \over dx^2}\left(J\left(x,y\right)\right)=0$$

Now, let there be some second-order differential equation

 * $$f\left(x,y\right)+g\left(x,y,{dy \over dx}\right){dy \over dx}+{d^2y \over dx^2}\left(J\left(x,y\right)\right)=0$$

If $${\partial J\over\partial x}={\partial I\over\partial y}$$ for exact differential equations, then

 * $$\int \left({\partial I\over\partial y}\right)dy=\int \left({\partial J\over\partial x}\right)dy$$

and

 * $$\int \left({\partial I\over\partial y}\right)dy=\int \left({\partial J\over\partial x}\right)dy=I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)$$

where $$h\left(x\right)$$ is some arbitrary function only of $$x$$ that was differentiated away to zero upon taking the partial derivative of $$I\left(x,y\right)$$ with respect to $$y$$. Although the sign on $$h\left(x\right)$$ could be positive, it is more intuitive to think of the integral's result as $$I\left(x,y\right)$$ that is missing some original extra function $$h\left(x\right)$$ that was partially differentiated to zero.

Next, if

 * $${dI\over dx}={\partial I\over\partial x}+{\partial I\over\partial y}{dy \over dx}$$

then the term $${\partial I\over\partial x}$$ should be a function only of $$x$$ and $$y$$, since partial differentiation with respect to $$x$$ will hold $$y$$ constant and not produce any derivatives of $$y$$. In the second order equation

 * $$f\left(x,y\right)+g\left(x,y,{dy \over dx}\right){dy \over dx}+{d^2y \over dx^2}\left(J\left(x,y\right)\right)=0$$

only the term $$f\left(x,y\right)$$ is a term purely of $$x$$ and $$y$$. Let $${\partial I\over\partial x}=f\left(x,y\right)$$. If $${\partial I\over\partial x}=f\left(x,y\right)$$, then

 * $$f\left(x,y\right)={ dI\over dx}-{\partial I\over\partial y}{dy \over dx}$$

Since the total derivative of $$I\left(x,y\right)$$ with respect to $$x$$ is equivalent to the implicit ordinary derivative $${dI \over dx}$$, then

 * $$f\left(x,y\right)+{\partial I\over\partial y}{dy \over dx}={dI \over dx}={d \over dx}\left(I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)\right)+{dh\left(x\right) \over dx}$$

So,

 * $${dh\left(x\right) \over dx}=f\left(x,y\right)+{\partial I\over\partial y}{dy \over dx}-{d \over dx}\left(I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)\right)$$

and

 * $$h\left(x\right)=\int\left(f\left(x,y\right)+{\partial I\over\partial y}{dy \over dx}-{d \over dx}\left(I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)\right)\right)dx$$

Thus, the second order differential equation

 * $$f\left(x,y\right)+g\left(x,y,{dy \over dx}\right){dy \over dx}+{d^2y \over dx^2}\left(J\left(x,y\right)\right)=0$$

is exact only if $$g\left(x,y,{dy \over dx}\right)={ dJ\over dx}+{\partial J\over\partial x}={dJ \over dx}+{\partial J\over\partial x}$$ and only if the below expression

 * $$\int\left(f\left(x,y\right)+{\partial I\over\partial y}{dy \over dx}-{d \over dx}\left(I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)\right)\right)dx=\int \left(f\left(x,y\right)-{\partial \left(I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)\right)\over\partial x}\right)dx$$

is a function solely of $$x$$. Once $$h\left(x\right)$$ is calculated with its arbitrary constant, it is added to $$I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)$$ to make $$I\left(x,y\right)$$. If the equation is exact, then we can reduce to the first order exact form which is solvable by the usual method for first-order exact equations.

 * $$I\left(x,y\right)+J\left(x,y\right){dy \over dx}=0$$

Now, however, in the final implicit solution there will be a $$C_1x$$ term from integration of $$h\left(x\right)$$ with respect to $$x$$ twice as well as a $$C_2$$, two arbitrary constants as expected from a second-order equation.

Example
Given the differential equation

 * $$\left(1-x^2\right)y''-4xy'-2y=0$$

one can always easily check for exactness by examining the $$y''$$ term. In this case, both the partial and total derivative of $$1-x^2$$ with respect to $$x$$ are $$-2x$$, so their sum is $$-4x$$, which is exactly the term in front of $$y'$$. With one of the conditions for exactness met, one can calculate that

 * $$\int \left(-2x\right)dy=I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)=-2xy$$

Letting $$f\left(x,y\right)=-2y$$, then

 * $$\int \left(-2y-2xy'-{d \over dx}\left(-2xy \right)\right)dx=\int \left(-2y-2xy'+2xy'+2y\right)dx=\int \left(0\right)dx=h\left(x\right)$$

So, $$h\left(x\right)$$ is indeed a function only of $$x$$ and the second order differential equation is exact. Therefore, $$h\left(x\right)=C_1$$ and $$I\left(x,y\right)=-2xy+C_1$$. Reduction to a first-order exact equation yields

 * $$-2xy+C_1+\left(1-x^2\right)y'=0$$

Integrating $$I\left(x,y\right)$$ with respect to $$x$$ yields

 * $$-x^2y+C_1x+i\left(y\right)=0$$

where $$i\left(y\right)$$ is some arbitrary function of $$y$$. Differentiating with respect to $$y$$ gives an equation correlating the derivative and the $$y'$$ term.

 * $$-x^2+i'\left(y\right)=1-x^2$$

So, $$i\left(y\right)=y+C_2$$ and the full implicit solution becomes

 * $$C_1x+C_2+y-x^2y=0$$

Solving explicitly for $$y$$ yields

 * $$y= \frac{C_1x+C_2}{1-x^2}$$

Higher order exact differential equations
The concepts of exact differential equations can be extended to any order. Starting with the exact second order equation

 * $${d^2y \over dx^2}\left(J\left(x,y\right)\right)+{dy \over dx}\left({dJ \over dx}+{\partial J\over\partial x}\right)+f\left(x,y\right)=0$$

it was previously shown that equation is defined such that

 * $$f\left(x,y\right)={dh\left(x\right) \over dx}+{d \over dx}\left(I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)\right)-{\partial J\over\partial x}{dy \over dx}$$

Implicit differentiation of the exact second-order equation $$n$$ times will yield an $$\left(n+2\right)$$th order differential equation with new conditions for exactness that can be readily deduced from the form of the equation produced. For example, differentiating the above second-order differential equation once to yield a third-order exact equation gives the following form

 * $${d^3y \over dx^3}\left(J\left(x,y\right)\right)+{d^2y \over dx^2}{dJ \over dx}+{d^2y \over dx^2}\left({dJ \over dx}+{\partial J\over\partial x}\right)+{dy \over dx}\left({d^2J \over dx^2}+{d \over dx}\left({\partial J\over\partial x}\right)\right)+{df\left(x,y\right) \over dx}=0$$

where

 * $${df\left(x,y\right) \over dx}={d^2h\left(x\right) \over dx^2}+{d^2 \over dx^2}\left(I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)\right)-{d^2y \over dx^2}{\partial J\over\partial x}-{dy \over dx}{d \over dx}\left({\partial J\over\partial x}\right)=F\left(x,y,{dy \over dx}\right)$$

and where $$F\left(x,y,{dy \over dx}\right)$$ is a function only of $$x,y$$ and $${dy \over dx}$$. Combining all $${dy \over dx}$$ and $${d^2y \over dx^2}$$ terms not coming from $$F\left(x,y,{dy \over dx}\right)$$ gives

 * $${d^3y \over dx^3}\left(J\left(x,y\right)\right)+{d^2y \over dx^2}\left(2{dJ \over dx}+{\partial J\over\partial x}\right)+{dy \over dx}\left({d^2J \over dx^2}+{d \over dx}\left({\partial J\over\partial x}\right)\right)+F\left(x,y,{dy \over dx}\right)=0$$

Thus, the three conditions for exactness for a third-order differential equation are: the $${d^2y \over dx^2}$$ term must be $$2{dJ \over dx}+{\partial J\over\partial x}$$, the $${dy \over dx}$$ term must be $${d^2J \over dx^2}+{d \over dx}\left({\partial J\over\partial x}\right)$$ and

 * $$F\left(x,y,{dy \over dx}\right)-{d^2 \over dx^2}\left(I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)\right)+{d^2y \over dx^2}{\partial J\over\partial x}+{dy \over dx}{d \over dx}\left({\partial J\over\partial x}\right)$$

must be a function solely of $$x$$.

Example
Consider the nonlinear third-order differential equation

 * $$yy'+3y'y+12x^2=0$$

If $$J\left(x,y\right)=y$$, then $$y\left(2{dJ \over dx}+{\partial J\over\partial x}\right)$$ is $$2y'y$$ and $$y'\left({d^2J \over dx^2}+{d \over dx}\left({\partial J\over\partial x}\right)\right)=y'y$$which together sum to $$3y'y$$. Fortunately, this appears in our equation. For the last condition of exactness,

 * $$F\left(x,y,{dy \over dx}\right)-{d^2 \over dx^2}\left(I\left(x,y\right)-h\left(x\right)\right)+{d^2y \over dx^2}{\partial J\over\partial x}+{dy \over dx}{d \over dx}\left({\partial J\over\partial x}\right)=12x^2-0+0+0=12x^2$$

which is indeed a function only of $$x$$. So, the differential equation is exact. Integrating twice yields that $$h\left(x\right)=x^4+C_1x+C_2=I\left(x,y\right)$$. Rewriting the equation as a first-order exact differential equation yields

 * $$x^4+C_1x+C_2+yy'=0$$

Integrating $$I\left(x,y\right)$$ with respect to $$x$$ gives that $${x^5\over 5}+C_1x^2+C_2x+i\left(y\right)=0$$. Differentiating with respect to $$y$$ and equating that to the term in front of $$y'$$ in the first-order equation gives that $$i'\left(y\right)=y$$ and that $$i\left(y\right)={y^2\over 2}+C_3$$. The full implicit solution becomes

 * $${x^5\over 5}+C_1x^2+C_2x+C_3+{y^2\over 2}=0$$

The explicit solution, then, is

 * $$y=\pm\sqrt{C_1x^2+C_2x+C_3-\frac{2x^5}{5}}$$

title: Exact differential equation