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Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 18

Birth/death dates in biographies
My habit has been to use summary dates in the summary (e.g., “Kellie Waymire (1967–2003)”), and full dates (when known) in the article (e.g., “Waymire was born on 27 July 1967 in Columbus, Ohio”). This looks cleaner and neater to me, as well as making the summary summarise what's in the article. I've run into no objections to this until yesterday, when one user (PMA) has reverted my changes, claiming that the MoS is against me. I don't think that it is, but it isn't clear on this point. Any thoughts? Would it be acceptable to make my approach standard? Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 08:50, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * See Manual of Style (biographies) for the standard. -- User:Docu

That just refers back to Manual of Style (dates and numbers). I think that Mel Etitis's approach is fine and certainly allowed by the MoS, but it should not be made into the standard. In short biographies it's not worth including sentences about dates of birth and death. So in these cases the exact dates can be given in the parentheses after the name. Gdr 11:08, 2005 Apr 2 (UTC)

 * I suppose so — though in biography stubs, my feeling is that adding complete birth and death dates at least pads the article out a bit. Underhand, I suppose. Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 19:16, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I would rather see all biographies with the full dates in parenthesis, which is the implied form from the MoS Cburnett 20:49, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC) (signed afterthefact)

 * I'm not clear that it is — but in any case, I'm asking what people think of my suggestion, so what's important is why you'd rather see it that way, and why you think that my reasons don't make the case. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 20:42, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't think why is necessarily important. Any style guide is going to be guided by personal opinion over anything objective.  That said, I don't think it's necessary to break the dates up the way you propose it.  Putting the birth & death date immediately after the name makes it quickly findable; otherwise you have to find the "____ was born on ____" wherever that may be. Cburnett 20:49, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I prefer the current solution:
 * Elwyn Brooks White (July 11, 1899–October 1, 1985), was an American author, essayist, and noted prose stylist...

Later in the article, it's generally sufficient to repeat the year of birth/death. Isn't the reference to formats for dates here mainly on how to write approximate dates? "Fl. " is missing BTW. -- User:Docu

Indian numbers
I have gotten into a dispute at Talk:Christianity in India over the question of the use of the Indian numerals lakh and crore. In my view, it is absurd for us to use these numbering systems that nobody outside India is familiar with, and which add nothing to the article. Perhaps, since these terms are particularly used for currency, it would make sense to use them in that context, but in Christianity in India they were being used for population figures. I can see no justification for this. But others seemingly disagree, so I thought I'd try to see what others think. john k 15:29, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I find it incomprehensible that John Kenney should find it "absurd". First off, lakhs and crores are also (unless I'm mistaken) widely understood and used in Pakistan and Bangladesh, and perhaps elsewhere in South Asia. Even if this usage were limited to India alone, we would still be talking about slightly more than one-sixth of all of humankind. This is by no means a trivial consideration, given the ongoing efforts to counter systemic bias on Wikipedia. Furthermore, Indians represent a large proportion of the global English-speaking population. The number of Indians using English as a first or second language exceeds the entire population of the British Isles. There is every reason why Wikipedia should be able to use certain Indian English conventions on India-related articles. In any case, the words lakh and crore are not foreign-language expressions; they're in English dictionaries, and I, at any rate, have never seen them italicized. They're in perfectly common use in South Asian publications (in English).
 * I actually proposed an India-related numbering convention on Wikipedia talk:Notice board for India-related topics. It's true that there was not much discussion on that head, but such as there was emerged in favour of using lakhs and crores with the equivalent figure in millions in parentheses (along the same lines as citing measurements in metres followed by feet). This seemed to be certainly a transparent, if somewhat redundant compromise, and I'm perfectly prepared to follow it. John Kenney's objection is to the mention of lakhs and crores at all. If Wikipedia wishes to maintain itself as an international NPOV project, we should err on the side of inclusivity. QuartierLatin1968 20:22, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Is Indian English usage overwhelmingly in favour of crores and lakhs over thousands and millions? Would "20 million" puzzle an English-speaking Indian?  If so, then I would favour usage like "19.6 million (1.96 crores)" in the text.  Otherwise, I think a note explaining the traditional nomenclature is sufficient.  —Michael Z. 2005-04-11 21:01 Z

I apologize for saying "India" when I meant "the Indian subcontinent." john k 23:20, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Also, Quartier, where is this discussion on the notice board? I can't find it. At any rate, I am not going to oppose use of lakhs and crores for currency, because this seems to be standard usage. But using it for population figures is completely unwarranted, and claims that this has anything to do with NPOV are ridiculous - numbering is an international system, and there is no reason to make things more complicated than they need to be. If you can show me, as Michael asks, that English-speaking Indians wouldn't understand "thousands" and "millions," I'm happy to put lakhs and crores in parentheses for Indian topics. But otherwise I don't see what value is served by this. john k 23:24, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry, the discussion was archived. It's now at Wikipedia talk:Notice board for India-related topics/archive2. Per Sundar's comment below, it depends on the person's level of familiarity, but my sense is that millions are as mystifying to many South Asians as lakhs are to many Westerners. Hence the advantage in including both, as Michael suggests. QuartierLatin1968 14:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Hey, I come here seeing the note on Notice board for India related topics. Please remember that a vast majority of Indians (and presumably others from the sub-continent and probably Indonesia(?)) who are not yet exposed to the western lingo will be puzzled by "million". Take my father for example. He is a commerce professor with a doctorate, but yet not comfortable with millions. Please understand that you need to think from the other side of the fence in cases involving culture and language. I'm ok with giving both "millions" and "lakhs" in India-related articles. Only software professionals and others who work for multinational corporations are comfortable with this terminology. -- 04:19, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

I would have no particular problem with listing the Indian numbers in parentheses - although I'm not sure why Indian people should have the right to read their kind of numbers for topics related to India, but not for anything else. But standard English usage should be the main way of presenting things. BTW, does anyone know if articles on French Canadian topics on fr use different numbers from the usual French numbering system, because otherwise the Québécois might get confused by the use of standard French numbers? john k 04:23, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with John and Michael. Maurreen 04:48, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I like the idea of your analogy John, but I'm confused how to apply it – they use the same numbers in Québec as in France. Do you mean Belgium and Switzerland (with septante and huitante/octante)? Or punctuation? (Québec French uses roughly the same punctuation as French French – so in Canada you often see things labelled 6.5 metres in English, and 6,5 mètres in French. Or $6.50 in English and 6,5 $ in French. The only difference I can think of is that thousands are separated by a space in Québec, while in France they are separated by either a space or a dot.)
 * On a different topic (why to use lakhs in India-related articles and not elsewhere), I suppose it's a good question. Basically I just saw this as part of an evolving set of India-related Wikipedia conventions (such as, use British spellings). QuartierLatin1968 14:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose I meant Belgium and Switzerland - I always get confused as to which has the weird numbers. As to the other question, I think British spellings are a wholly different thing from Indian numbers - Brits and Americans can easily understand each other's spellings, even if we don't use them. Westerners are simply completely unfamiliar with Indian numbers. john k 18:26, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't see why John has a problem with lakhs and crores if the equivalent standards are applied in brackets alongside for global compatability. Having lakhs and crores will also educate many as to the different numbering systems we have in this world instead of forcing the three digit system on all and not possibly educating the world as to the alternatives. == 18:56, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

What is "standard English"? Why are lakhs and crores not "standard English", but millions and billions are? The numbers should be left in their original format (either from the original source, or original author), provided the article uses one format consistently. As an aid to the reader, conversions to another format, in parenthesis, could be given, but I feel that it is inappropriate to completely remove the original numbers in favor of ones own preferred format. Also, manually converting numbers this way may very well introduce errors (is a billion 10^6 or 10^9? how big is a gallon?). srs 23:28, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lakhs and crores are not standard English, because they are not - they are imports from a foreign language used in English only in places where the term derives from the original language. (If that makes any sense). Nichalp - the purpose of an article on Christianity in India is not to educate people about Indian number systems. I have no problem with using lakhs and crores for monetary values (with normal values in parentheses), but I hold firm that ordinary numbers should be used for population figures. john k 16:25, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Why not educate the others on the Indian numbering system for India related pages? I am firmly against having only lakhs and crores on India related pages if a decimal equivalent is absent that is. If a person from a non South Asian country were to read an Indian media publication, he would see figures in lacs (an alternate spelling) and crores. Of course he would find it difficult to figure out the correct equivalent on first glance. Why not apply the above mentioned metric to wikipedia? After all, this is an encylopedia which aims to instruct. == 07:54, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

 * Lakhs and crores are in every dictionary I've found, so they are definitely standard English. If you want to discard all words derived from other languages, then you wouldn't have very many words to work with as English borrows heavily from other languages. Lakh is derived from Hindi, but it is widely used in places where Hindi is not spoken, so its not particularly a "local" term. "Million" is originally derived from Italian, and so by your criteria, should not be used? "Ordinary" and "standard" for you is not the same "ordinary" and "standard" for other parts of the world. srs 17:47, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

They are in dictionaries, but it is not standard English to use these terms instead of "thousands" and "millions," except maybe in discussions of numbers of rupees. I don't want to discard words from other languages, I want to not use primarily words from other languages that are only used in the part of the world where the word was derived from. john k 18:18, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Why not also in other articles that will be read particularly by people using lakhs and crores? At least in the brackets. --Eleassar777 18:31, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Again, how do you define "standard English"? Convention in the UK and USA may be to use millions, just like convention in South Asia is to use lakhs. There is no body governing what is "standard English", and while it may be appropriate to exclude certain words from http://simple.wikipedia.org, here, there is no reason to exclude perfectly valid words for arbitrary reasons. srs 19:09, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Who are we to say that articles about India are more likely to be read by Indians than articles about, say, nuclear physics? That's a silly distinction. BTW, I looked up "Lakh" in the Times of India - it shows up a lot, but most of the references are to currency. At any rate, in terms of standard English, it is not only the convention in the UK and USA to use millions. It is also the convention in Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and of every other country outside the Indian subcontinent where English is an official language. Furthermore, it is the convention used in every other western language, and which is used by any non-native speaker (outside the Indian subcontinent) who learns English. I don't have a problem with including the lakh and crore figure in parentheses, or for using it for quantities of Indian currency, and maybe in parentheses for other articles about India, but beyond that, we should remember that wikipedia is for an international audience, and that international is not equivalent to "Indian." john k 20:03, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Perhaps the Indian English Wikipedia should be started?! ;) Seriously, I think that more work should be put into writing Indian Wikipedia (whatever language) than arguing the use of lakhs here. --Eleassar777 20:23, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * My understanding is that we accept all forms of standard English in the English Wikipedia. I see no reason to make an exception of Indian English. Of course, this comes with a proviso that, where a word or phrase is unfamiliar in other forms of standard English it should be explained or avoided. I see no reason why this principle should not be applied here. As long as lakhs and crores are explained - I see no difficulty. If millions and billions need to be explained to Indians in other articles, then so be it. An international encyclopaedia should be written for an international audience, jguk 20:48, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But is a phrase from Hindi which is used in Indian English to be considered a "standard English" phrase? And are you really suggesting that we add conversions into lakhs and crores for every article that uses a large number on the English wikipedia? john k 20:54, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I find myself in agreement with jguk. Embrace the difference; celebrate the diversity. As for adding conversions into lakhs and crores on other random articles: no one has suggested that. –Hajor 21:02, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Jguk said, "If millions and billions need to be explained to Indians in other articles, then so be it." That sounds like suggesting conversions into lakhs and crores on other random articles to me. john k 04:27, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * My apologies: I hadn't seen that phrase of Jguk's. Or, if I did, it didn't register. Sorry. –Hajor 13:10, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * John K said, "Lakhs and crores are not standard English, because they are not - they are imports from a foreign language used in English only in places where the term derives from the original language." You could say the same thing about "moose" (international English elk), which comes to us from a Native American language of New England. Standard English has thousands of words from "foreign languages". I think you're honestly underestimating how established and respectable the convention of counting in lakhs is in South Asian English, John – this isn't just code-switching by people whose English is spotty.
 * Lakhs are mostly used for money – and people – because, frankly, these are the things that most often come in hundreds of thousands. The word 'million' is also used mostly for counting money – and people – so I don't know what that proves. But my sense is that you would also say, for example, there are twenty crores of cells in the human body (or however many there are) – it just doesn't come up as often.
 * As for whether Wikipedia should use lakhs outside of India-related articles, I feel a little hesitant about setting down anything dogmatic. What are the conventions for using metric and imperial units? Because this is a similar case – the US has a distinct regional preference, in the way that South Asia has a distinct regional preference for lakhs. It seems like we include imperial units whenever somebody happens to think of it, right, but metric units are always listed alongside. In the same way, we might include lakhs whenever somebody happens to think of it, but use millions alongside. Does that seem sensible? QuartierLatin1968 14:35, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It may be that I am underestimating the use of lakhs and crores - I was surprised at the prevalence of "lakh" in my search of the Times of India. The metric/imperial comparison seems somewhat apt to me. On the other hand, the old imperial units are not only the current preferred unit in the US - they are also the unit which used to be the standard throughout the English language. So I think referring to imperial units in non-US topics is probably more valid than referring to lakhs and crores in non-Indian topics. As to Indian topics, the most important thing, I think, is that the standard thousand/million numbers are always given. For counting money, I have no problem with giving lakhs and crores as the principal unit, although the million total should also be given. For population, I'm still not convinced, but if everyone else feels that way it's fine. I really do not think we should give lakhs and crores where ever somebody feels like it. Re: Moose/Elk, I think that's not quite the same. The only English-speaking places inhabited by this animal are where it's called a moose. So it's an awkward situation. john k 15:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * John, That's what I've been telling you all the time :). == 18:53, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Rename articles in first decade of the common era?
User:Sj moved articles on the years in the first decade: 1 → 1 (year) ... 9 → 9 (year). I moved them all back because (1) this is a big change that affects lots of articles and editors; and (2) the change wasn't agreed here or documented in the Manual of Style.

There's some discussion on a particular instance at Talk:3 (number), but this page is the right place for a general discussion. So go ahead!

For the record, I think the current situation (plain numbers for years) is fine and easy for editors to remember. I find it much more common to refer to a year than any other use of a number, and this is true even for numbers less than 10. Gdr 14:25, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)
 * Firstly, thanks for paying attention to these articles. :-)
 * That said, you don't need to revert changes simply because "it wasn't documented in the manual of style". In particular, the 'default' destination for the digits is still the year; simply after a redirect.  I agree with Proto below that the digits should actually go to the digit page, and not the year page -- note how much more content there is about the digits than about those years!  and note that people always refer to 'the year 1' or '1 AD' or even the stiffly proper 'AD 1', rather than "back in 1, the Romans were preparing for...".  But that is something which requires more discussion.  Simply moving those pages to a more sensible title does not seem like "a big change that affects lots of articles and editors;" can you explain? +sj  +  16:16, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I already put something on your user page before finding the correct place to talk about this ... I think it makes much more sense to have numbers less than 10 to go to the article on the number, not the year. I know the standard is for all numbers to go by default to the year page, but Sj's alteration made things a lot more intuitive IMO. Proto 14:34, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with this sentiment (that the default should be to go to the article on the digit), but note that this is not the change I implemented. We should discuss this here.  +sj  +  16:16, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * For consistency's sake, I disagree. Radiant_* 07:30, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, it would also be consistent to require four-digit years, like 0001, 0000 and -0001. Christoph Päper 18:56, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Why should these 10 years be any different to the articles for the other thousands of years we have? Why should these particular 10 numbers be different to all the other articles on numbers we have? It will be particularly confusing given that the proposed change is the exact opposite of what happens to higher and lower numbers / earlier and later years. Thryduulf 15:13, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Digits are both numbers and characters; have long histories (see the page lengths!); and the years themselves are very rarely (if ever?) referred to by number alone in English. What's this about earlier years?  -1 goes to -1, not to "1 BC" ...  +sj  +  16:16, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * No, -1 redirects to -1 (number), which should but does not have a link to 2 BC (it doesn't have a link to 1 BC either, but 2 BC would be the proper one to link). Gene Nygaard 16:35, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

When I first tried to save the following, an edit confllict occured. I don't have time to merge it properly right now, but here it is:

 * In the discussion at 3 (number), not only the year 3 or 1-9 were involced; all years 1-99 (and possibly 0) were in play. (Of course 0 is a very special case as the calendar underlying the other years has no year zero.) Anyway, I have collected a little information on the articles 1-10. Here are their initial lines:
 * For other uses, see One, for the number, see Number 1.
 * This article is about the year 2. For other uses of 2, see 2 (number).
 * This article is about the year 3. For other uses of 3, see 3 (number).
 * This article is about the year 4. For other uses of 4, see 4 (number).
 * This article is about the year 5. For other uses of 5, see 5 (number).
 * For the character in the comic strip Peanuts, see 5 (Peanuts)
 * For the New York City Subway service, see 5 (New York City Subway service)
 * This article is about the year 6. For other uses of 6, see 6 (number).
 * This article is about the year 7. For other uses of 7, see 7 (number).
 * This article is about the year 8. For other uses of 8, see 8 (number).
 * This article is about the year 9. For other uses of 9, see 9 (number).
 * This article is about the year 10. For other uses of 10, see 10 (number).
 * First, I suggest the article One is merged into 1 (number) for consistency, and I suggest that all of these initial lines in the articles 1-99 (and later ones too) take the form most of them already have.
 * Secondly, I think the 3 (number) articles (all the numbers - 3 is just an example) might be split into two or more - a mathematical one, a disambiguation page, a numerology/trivia page...? In that case, the standard phrase in the year articles shold be
 * This article is about the year 3. For other uses of 3, see 3 (disambiguation).

--Niels Ø 16:50, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

Emphasizing disambiguation with (year), (number), and (disambiguation)
I think the changes suggested above should clearly be implemented for the digits. Ideas about more comprehensive changes, for general ease of use and stylistic consistency:
 * It can be confusing to have a policy that the bare number should not only redirect to, but should be the article for a given year.
 * It is slightly off-style to include the disambiguation list ("other uses of 100") in the article about a given number. It would be cleaner to have a separate disambiguation page, particularly when the list is long.

In light of this, changes that could be made:

Proposed changes

 * Have bare number 2 (for instance) redirect to 2 (year)
 * Make the links to the page on the number-and-numeral clear at the top of the page; perhaps slightly larger than they are now
 * If necessary -- that is, if the number/numeral page is sufficiently long -- create a "2 (disambiguation)" page for dab content and move "other uses" out of the relevant 2 (number) page. Then the disambig notice at the top of the page for the year 2 should link to both the number and the dab, something like "''For the number 2, see 2 (number).  For other uses of 2, see 2 (disambiguation)."
 * +sj +  16:16, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Commentary

 * According to Naming_conventions, the number articles with related meanings should be at 3 (number), rather than Three or Number 3 or 3. Similar to letters, where all related meanings are listed under A, this should include content that might have been on disambiguation pages. Template:Otheruses-number leads from the year article to the number article
 * Four, Isère is not related to the number, so 4_(number) isn't the place to list it, but it's current location at 4 (number) is consistent with other meanings using redirects. The long list at 3_(number) could easily go on a separate page. In general, the numbers 1-12 could probably benefit from a format more consistent with the higher numbers, but as they are longer, it's more difficulte to give them a consistent look.
 * My favorite Style Guideline is: "Use common sense when creating page divisions." When there's not enough content for a handful of pages, use just one.  We should start creating N (disambiguation) pages, separate from N (number) pages, as they become necessary for numbers with extensive "other uses" sections. If a dab page exists, we should say "for other uses, see N (disambiguation)," which would in turn link to the N (number) page.
 * note that the same style guideline led to the happy compromise of having one page per hundred numbers, and then one per thousand numbers, as the numbers get larger and larger. +sj +
 * The years at 1, 2, 3, etc. are the titles with the formats used for dynamic date formatting, so without changing mediawiki, I tend to think it's preferable to leave them there. -- User:Docu
 * The only penalty for redirecting the digits is that people following 'dynamic date formatting' and similar date links will have one (invisible) redirect. Since those ten years are not terribly popular, this is no significant harship on the servers.  I think we should make exceptions for those ten.

User:Sj: please can you explain the problem you are trying to solve, and how you believe your proposed solution solves it? Gdr 20:50, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
 * For consistency's sake, please keep naming for single or double-digit numbers (and years) the same as for triple and quadruple-digit ones. Just as 1985 is the year and not the number, so should 8 be the year and not the nubmer. Radiant_* 07:29, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with the second proposal, "Make the links to the page on the number-and-numeral clear at the top of the page". But I disagree with the first proposal. Even when the usefulness of the number pages is fully realized, the vast majority of people who edit Wikipedia will still appreciate being able to make year links without worrying about redirects. PrimeFan 20:11, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Template for geographical coordinates
I tried to use the template for geographical coordinates °N, °W inside an infobox template, but it destroys the layout. Is it not possible to nest templates? Or am I doing something wrong? −Woodstone 09:12, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC)

 * I had some difficulties to set it up at Infobox_Swiss_town, but it works now. "region:CH" calls directly the country specific subpage. There are other infoboxes listed at WikiProject Geographical coordinates#. -- User:Docu

Thanks for the pointer. On WikiProject Geographical coordinates I found the following bug report: "The current template mechanism does not handle templates as arguments to templates." −Woodstone 10:42, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC)

 * Indeed, that means one can't add "coor= 1.03417°N, 1.03417°W" to the article using the template, but besides defining the use of coor in the template, one could build a template with a subpage, e.g. as Template:Infobox Pope with different displays for the living and dead popes (see how Template:Infobox_pope/dead is included). -- User:Docu

Style for numbers, weights, and measures section vs. international standard
Hello,

the Style for numbers, weights, and measures section is in contradiction with the international standard, see.

I know you know (this is explicitally pointed out at the beginning of the section), but I think respecting the international standards is a way to facilitate international exchanges and to respect the NPOV.

Should I place a banner on the page? ;-)

Cdang| write me 08:25, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

 * We can, of course, set our own house rules. Saying that we are going to consisstently follow a certain rule is not a neutral point of view issue with respect to this article.  You might object to what's here, and argue for a change, but whatever we decide, stating a rule here doesn't become an NPOV issue. Gene Nygaard 11:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Note also that there are a zillion different standards organizations and style guides. Nobody has plenary authority concerning the rules of usage of the English language.
 * Note specifically that it is outside the scope of authority of the BIPM, CGPM, and CIPM to tell us how to write numbers in general.
 * ''See also SI police force. Gene Nygaard 12:03, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

 * There is no will to force anyone to anything, just a proposition. The standards are an important thing: nobody is forced to make a screw that follows the standard, but forcing a customer to buy these screws and no other because they do not fit this device would be a terrible commercial mistake (and also a terrible raise of the costs). And remember the Mars Climate Orbiter project failed because someone did not use the international standard.
 * The contributors and readers of the English pages are not all native English speakers, and if someone reads "1,635", it is easy to believe it is a number between one and two, whereas "1 635" is clearly a number between thousand and two thousand, whatever the origin of the reader.
 * Thus, imho, the current Wikipedia convention is likely to induce mistake for people who are not native English speakers, and therefore hinders the exchange of information.
 * Cdang| write me 07:36, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

 * There are, of course, several different standards for screws—just as there are several different standards for the writing of numbers. Gene Nygaard 14:04, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

 * You're right. We should use a format EVERYONE can work with comfortably. 131.211.210.12 08:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I doubt there's a big problem - in most cases common sense will tell someone that we're not quoting a figure to three decimal places. Besides, I doubt there would be widespread acceptance of change here, jguk 11:58, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * You might underestimate the cultural discrepancies. Or do you considere en: is aimed to native English-speakers only? Do you think the articles should also use only the Imperial system?
 * Concerning the other doubt, this is precisely the aim of the discussion.
 * Cdang| write me 10:22, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * To aim en.wikipedia at "native speakers", ie at those whose first childhood tongue is English, would not be defensible and frankly not meaningful, but it's quite reasonable to say that it's aimed at people with some level of fluency. (There is, or was, an effort at a Simple—or was that Basic?—English version specifically aimed at English learners. I don't think that's gone very far but I haven't been following it.) For en.wikipedia to accomodate people with some arbitrarily low fluency, or to cater to the likely interpretation that might be assumed based on some other language's conventions, would be infeasable and quite inappropriate. If someone has not learned that almost all printed English uses "." as a decimal mark (as I understand it, South African English the only exception) and that a great deal of it uses a comma to separate thousands, their complaint is with their English teachers, not wikipedia. Of course their contributions to wikipedia in areas of their domain expertise is greatly valued, but they should expect someone to come along and add further value by aligning it with wikipedia's quite reasonable style. Sharkford 17:20, 2005 May 9 (UTC)
 * The Simple English wikipedia is at simple.wikipedia.org (e.g. simple:London). A glance at their recent changes show they've had 500 edits in the past week, which is not bad for a small project. Netoholic and Postdif from here appear to be quite active there as well. Thryduulf 13:11, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I think everybody understands the dot as decimal separator. It's just the case of a number with a thousands separator and no decimal separator that would cause problem, specially when performing a copy-paste operation for a translation.
 * I proposed to stick to the international standard because I thought it would be an easy change of habits. Now I can easilly live with it, don't worry.
 * Cdang| write me 12:40, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


text:
User:MyNameIsNotBob/mammaldigestivecomparison

Fox Digestive System - Basic

 * Mouth
 * Esophagus
 * Stomach
 * Small intestine
 * duodenum
 * jejunum
 * ileum
 * Large intestine
 * sigmoid colon
 * cecum

Deer Digestive System - Basic

 * Mouth
 * Deer have 32 teeth:
 * 8 incisors
 * 12 premolars
 * 12 molars
 *
 * Rumen
 * Reticulum
 * Omasum
 * Abomasum
 * Intestines

Deer
Deer have 32 teeth:
 * 8 incisors
 * 12 premolars
 * 12 molars

Fox
No information found as yet

Bat
No information found as yet ===

= Bibliography =

Dissections of Mammalian digestive systems

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Talk:Microsoft Dynamics AX

Information about ESUs
Hi. Is it necessary to include the below informations amid an ongoing merging discussion (as @ the time of editing)?

"Extended support for Dynamics AX 2009, 2012 and 2012 R2 have been postponed to April 12, 2022 from the original date of October 12, 2021. The mentioned products [sic] received Extended Security Updates (ESUs) until January 10, 2023 through the Dynamics 365 Migration Program. Mainstream and extended support for Dynamics AX 2012 R3 have been postponed as well to October 12, 2021 and January 10, 2023 respectively [from their unknown original end dates]."

I am not certain at which section of the page the above paragraph would be best suited. Nevertheless, here are some reliable sources I have obtained (thus far):

https://learn.microsoft.com/lifecycle/products/dynamics-ax-2009 https://learn.microsoft.com/lifecycle/products/dynamics-ax-2012 https://learn.microsoft.com/lifecycle/products/dynamics-ax-2012-r2 https://learn.microsoft.com/lifecycle/products/dynamics-ax-2012-r3 https://learn.microsoft.com/lifecycle/faq/extended-security-updates https://learn.microsoft.com/dynamics365/fin-ops-core/fin-ops/get-started/mainstream-support-ax-2009-2012

Any bit of wording modification(s) is appreciated.

Signed by 197.240.28.107 (talk) 19:55, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Microsoft Dynamics AX


text:
Point Blank (video game series)

Point Blank, known as Gun Bullet (ガンバレット), or Gunvari (ガンバリ) in Japan, is a series of light gun shooter games developed by Namco for the arcade, PlayStation and Nintendo DS; the trilogy was first released in arcade in 1994 and was later ported onto the PlayStation. Point Blank DS was released in 2006 for the Nintendo DS featuring 40 challenges from the original series.

Gameplay
Players use two attached light guns (in the case of the DS, a pen or in the case of the iOS version, touching the screen) to hit targets onscreen; missions require speed, quick judgment or pinpoint accuracy. The game consists of non-violent shooting contests where players are tasked with challenges such as shooting player-colored bulls-eyes, cardboard criminals, and other inanimate objects, not shooting bombs and cardboard cutouts of civilians (much like in Namco's first light-gun game, Steel Gunners), and protecting characters Dr. Don and Dr. Dan, among other miscellaneous challenges, similar to games like Police Trainer, and Area 51: Site 4 - and players choose the desired difficulty level (Practice, Beginner, Advanced, and Very Hard in the first game, or Training, Beginner, Advanced, and Insane in the second game onwards) which will determine how many stages must be finished to complete the game, as well as their overall difficulty. Players are shown four missions in each grouping, and may attempt them in any order; they usually have only three lives for the entire game, but this may depend on the cabinet settings. Most stages have unlimited bullets, but some have a limited amount of ammo. Players lose lives if they fail to fulfill the stage quota, or shoot Do Not Shoot targets, such as Bombs, Civilians or the opponent's colour targets.

There are six different types of stages in the game: Accuracy, where both players must shoot the designated areas with the highest points, Intelligence, where they must count to sixteen (by shooting the numbers), Memory, where they must match two cards by shooting two matching cards, Simulation, where they are required to shoot the cardboard robbers but not civilians (in the Japanese theme of this type, they must shoot cardboard ninjas, but not geishas), Visual Acuity, where they are required to shoot the target which matches what is displayed, and Speed, where they are required to shoot targets of their designated colors (depending players play from left or right); in the arcade version, both light guns must also be calibrated before the crosshairs on the screen shall move.

Upon completing all stages, players will have their performance ranked. Point Blank 1 & 2's ranking is based on how many points have been accumulated, lives remaining, and how many continues have been used, and will advise the player to advance up to a higher difficulty, try out head to head with a friend, return to a lower difficulty, or to practice more. Point Blank 3 and DS ranks numerous aspects of a player's performance such as concentration, accuracy, judgement etc., and then presents them with an overall letter grade.

Games

 * Point Blank/Gun Bullet (ガンバレット) (1994) (Arcade, PlayStation) – The original.
 * Point Blank 2/Gunbarl (ガンバァール) (1999) (Arcade, PlayStation) – Released half a decade after its precursor.
 * Ghoul Panic/Oh! Bakyūn (オーバキューン) (1999) (Arcade, PlayStation) – A spin-off title that features a haunted house theme (similar to the original Golly! Ghost!) and 3D graphics (as those seen in the Namco System 21, 22 and 11 arcade system boards).
 * Point Blank 3/Gunbalina (ガンバリーナ) (2000) (Arcade, PlayStation) – Its Japanese name is a pun on Thumbelina.
 * Gunvari Collection + Time Crisis (2002) (PlayStation 2) – This title is a Japan-only compilation of the first three Point Blank games and the first Time Crisis (1995), which was the seventh title from Namco to use a light gun.
 * Aim For Cash (2004) (Arcade) – A gambling (skill based, not luck) version of Point Blank 3 where the player tries to clear games for the prize money. Should they fail in the Final Game, the player can try again for the same price as to play (i.e., increasing the bet).
 * Point Blank DS/Unō no Tatsujin: Gun Bullet Trainer (右脳の達人: ガンバレットトレーナー) (2006) (Nintendo DS) – A port of the original title which uses the console's stylus and touch screen instead of the arcade's light guns.
 * Point Blank Adventures (2015) (iOS, Android) – A new free-to-play title in the series, built from the ground up exclusively for mobile; it features over 200 stages and Facebook integration. Like its immediate precursor, the touch screen is used instead of a light gun.
 * Point Blank X (2016) (Arcade) – The fourth major arcade release in the series after Point Blank 3, a reboot of the series. The game is an arcade-exclusive version that was released worldwide in late 2016. This iteration features a redesigned cabinet that uses a flat-screen monitor, a departure from the older arcade releases; it features current graphics and new stages, including HD-remastered stages from Point Blank 1-3, a GunCon controller similar to the one used in Time Crisis 4 with old colors, and the capability to dispense tickets.

Release
Point Blank was originally developed as an arcade game in 1994, but a console version was made for the PlayStation in 1997; this version included an "arrange" mode which added an alternate version of Arcade mode, as well as adding many new gameplay modes alongside an RPG mode. It also supports the GunCon controller. The game was re-created in 1999 as Point Blank 2, adding more mini-stages and replacing "Very Hard" difficulty with "Insane" - and the game was once again re-worked in 2001 as Point Blank 3, being only released for the arcades in Japan and for the PlayStation worldwide, and featured cameos from other Namco properties, such as Rick Taylor from Splatterhouse, Klonoa, Mappy, and Pooka and Fygar from Dig Dug.

A Nintendo DS port of the game was released in North America on June 13, 2006, two days after the North American release of the Nintendo DS Lite.

Reception
In Japan, it was the seventh highest-grossing dedicated arcade game of 1995. According to Electronic Gaming Monthly, Point Blank was a "cult favorite" in U.S. arcades.

The PlayStation version was the third best-selling video game in Japan for the week ending August 10, 1997.

Reviews for the PlayStation version were positive, with critics especially praising the great variety of the stages. Dan Hsu and John Ricciardi of Electronic Gaming Monthly (EGM) both wrote that it was the best light gun game they had ever played, and they and their two co-reviewers lauded the game's addictiveness, longevity, and additional PlayStation content, especially the quest mode. Point Blank tied with the PlayStation version of Resident Evil 2 for EGM's "Game of the Month". Next Generation was less impressed with the quest mode, commenting that "It's nice to know that Namco wants to add value to the overall package, but it seems a bit forced, and players will tire of it well before they're finished." They instead considered the competitive two-player mode the highlight, and concluded that "Overall, Point Blank is in no way perfect for a single player, but people looking for a two-player gun game will not be disappointed." GameSpot summed up, "Namco's managed to capture and apply the addictive elements of puzzle and shooting games, creating a title that is so enjoyable and difficult to put down you won't be bothered by the audiovisual shortcomings." GamePro said the endless variety keeps the player from getting bored, resulting in "a lighthearted shooter that will entertain you for a surprisingly long time." They gave it a perfect 5.0 out of 5 for control and 4.0 in each of the remaining categories (graphics, sound, and funfactor).

In 1997, Electronic Gaming Monthly listed Point Blank as the 7th best arcade game of all time. Official U.S. PlayStation Magazine referred to characters Dr. Dan and Dr. Don as "an underrated dynamic duo" in September 2004.

title: Point Blank (video game series)


text:
Category:Mosque architecture

 * The architecture of Mosques — throughout the world.
 * See also: Category: Islamic architectural elements.

title: Category:Mosque architecture


text:
Nigella sativa

Nigella sativa (black caraway, also known as black cumin, nigella, kalonji, charnushka) is an annual flowering plant in the family Ranunculaceae, native to eastern Europe (Bulgaria and Romania) and western Asia (Cyprus, Turkey, Iran and Iraq), but naturalized over a much wider area, including parts of Europe, northern Africa and east to Myanmar. It is used as a spice in many cuisines.

Etymology
The genus name Nigella is a diminutive of the Latin niger "black", referring to the seed color. The specific epithet sativa means "cultivated".

In English, Nigella sativa and its seed are variously called black caraway, black seed, black cumin, fennel flower, nigella, nutmeg flower, Roman coriander, black onion seed and kalonji.

Black seed and black caraway may also refer to Elwendia persica, which is also known as Bunium persicum.

Description
N. sativa grows to 20 - 30 cm tall, with finely divided, linear (but not thread-like) leaves. The flowers are delicate, and usually coloured pale blue and white, with five to ten petals. The fruit is a large and inflated capsule composed of three to seven united follicles, each containing numerous seeds which are used as spice, sometimes as a replacement for Bunium bulbocastanum (also called black cumin).

Culinary uses
The seeds of N. sativa are used as a spice in many cuisines. In Palestine, the seeds are ground to make bitter qizha paste.

The dry-roasted seeds flavour curries, vegetables, and pulses. They can be used as a seasoning in recipes with pod fruit, vegetables, salads, and poultry. In some cultures, the black seeds are used to flavour bread products. They are used as a part of the spice mixture panch phoron (meaning a mixture of five spices) in many recipes in Bengali cuisine and most recognizably in some variations of naan, such as nân-e barbari. Nigella is also used in tresse cheese, a braided string cheese called majdouleh or majdouli in the Middle East.

In the United States, the Food and Drug Administration classifies Nigella sativa as Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS) for use as a spice, natural seasoning, or flavouring.

History
Archaeological evidence about the earliest cultivation of N. sativa dates back three millennia, with N. sativa seeds found in several sites from ancient Egypt, including the Tomb of Tutankhamun. Seeds were found in a Hittite flask in Turkey from the second millennium BC.

N. sativa may have been used as a condiment of the Old World to flavour food. The Muslim physician Avicenna described N. sativa as a treatment for dyspnea in his The Canon of Medicine. N. sativa was used in the Middle East as a traditional medicine.

Chemistry
Oils are 32% to 40% of the total composition of N. sativa seeds. N. sativa oil contains linoleic acid, oleic acid, palmitic acid, and trans-anethole, and other minor constituents, such as nigellicine, nigellidine, nigellimine, and nigellimine N-oxide. Aromatics include thymoquinone, dihydrothymoquinone, p-cymene, carvacrol, α-thujene, thymol, α-pinene, β-pinene and trans-anethole. Protein and various alkaloids are present in the seeds.

Research
One meta-analysis of clinical trials found weak evidence that N. sativa has a short-term benefit on lowering systolic and diastolic blood pressure. A 2016 review indicated that N. sativa supplementation may lower total cholesterol, LDL, and triglyceride levels.

Traditional medicine
Despite considerable use of N. sativa in traditional medicine practices in Africa and Asia, there is insufficient high-quality clinical evidence to indicate that consuming the seeds or oil can be used to treat human diseases.

title: Nigella sativa


text: File:Thefirstwivesclub.jpg

title: File:Thefirstwivesclub.jpg


text:
Talk:Nicholas Nickleby

Literary Techniques
what are the literary techniques employed by Dickens when wrting N.N? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.215.254.192 (talk • contribs) 10:21, 14 June 2005.

Sliderskew - play on "slight askew"?
Does anyone know if the name "Sliderskew" was intended as a play on "slight askew"?

When I first saw the BBC mini-series of Nicholas Nickleby, I thought that her name was actually Slightaskew - it may not look like it on page, but I think it does sound like it, especially when said with a British accent.

Anyone? --DearPrudence 22:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

sry this is just crap, there is not even a short summary, and the major themes are ramdomly anything

Copyright violation.
Original here for comparison.--Old Moonraker (talk) 13:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Title
I don't see why this shouldn't be at Nicholas Nickleby. It is almost always published under that title, and it is clearly the primary topic for that title, as well. john k (talk) 02:51, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I may be incorrect, however; I think there are way to many grammatical errors in this article. If that is the case it is shame since Nicholas Nickleby is a great example of English literature in history and certainly some of the greatest characters Charles Dickens ever created. (Also there are too many personal oppinions about the way "Nicholas Nickleby," is written and not enough biasedness).

Time adjustment
I have altered the 1st sentence of 'Major Themes' from "Like nearly all..." to "Like many...". Pickwick, Two Cities, Expectations, Copperfield, Rudge are all concerned with earlier times than those in which Dickens wrote.

Available Versions
An audio version is available at LibriVox: http://librivox.org/the-life-and-adventures-of-nicholas-nickleby-by/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.117.73 (talk) 07:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Characters
1/23/2010 the article says: Arthur Gride an elderly miser and associate of Ralph. He pretends to be in love with Madeline, but is only interested in her inheritance. A coward and a boot-licker, he is a thoroughly unlikeable character.

That doesn't make sense - Madeline's father is in debt to Gride - I recall that Madeline's Father agreed to marry his daughter to Gride in exchange for cancelling the debt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.145.106 (talk) 19:22, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm - I posted that above comment - and I need to re-read the book! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.145.106 (talk) 05:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

How did Ralph Nickleby persuade Squiers to hire Nicholas: A detail glossed over by the 2002 movie and only hinted at in the novel was expanded in a stage production. Squiers's school is actually a dumping ground for "inconvenient" boys -- stepsons or illegitimate sons of (mostly) men of means, who deliberately paid Squiers to keep them confined in his school, assured that the child would be kept incommunicado and not even allowed a Christmas furlough. The quality of the education or living conditions in this kiddie concentration camp were a matter of indifference. The stage production also enlarged on something only hinted at in the novel: Ralph has some leverage over Squiers because Ralph had discovered that Squiers had been continuing to collect money for a boy who had, unbeknown to the parents, died years before. (It is unclear whether Ralph's involvement in this case is that the boy was the son or stepson of one of his clients or whether he himself was the boy's father.) Sussmanbern (talk) 11:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Possessives
I'm never in favour of change for the sake of it, so this is just to dispute that "Nicholas's", "Dickens's", etc., is wrong. The Cambridge Guide to English Usage suggests in respect of proper nouns "Treat all names ending in -s to the full apostrophe".--Old Moonraker (talk) 16:41, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Hello Old Moonraker. I guess that I am operating on an out-of-date set of standards (not the first time). I would certainly defer to your knowledge of the situation so please feel free to change it back. The "s's" will always look weird to me but I trust your point. Many apologies for the confusion that I have caused. MarnetteD | Talk 20:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It can look weird, and in the interest of not attracting further reverts I'm inclined to let it stand; the work I cited allows us a little "wriggle room" by acknowledging that the use of the s-apostrophe alone "lingers". However, Wikipedia pages which have developed with this standard, such as H. G. Wells, will be defended! --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:34, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

"Dickens's", etc, is correct. Only words where the final syllable starts and ends with S have the full apostrophe S omitted, eg Moses' would be correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.7.130.42 (talk) 21:16, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

About the conspiracy
In chapter 56 Ralph said "Ten thousand pounds", so there seems to be some kind of conspiracy which Charles Dickens did not explain explicitly.In chapter 64, Nickleby said "He has to suffer the consequence of a conspiracy", "connected with his school". No further explanation is given in the novel. It seems that Ralph and Squeers are trying to mortgage the school for at least ten thousand pounds.

In chapter 63 cherryble said "You are the children of a worthy gentleman", but still, no further explanation is given. xin_jl (talk) 01:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xin jl (talk • contribs) 01:25, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20061118064454/http://kclibrary.nhmccd.edu:80/NicholasNickleby.html to http://kclibrary.nhmccd.edu/NicholasNickleby.html

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071110142527/http://dickens.ucsc.edu/bibliographies/NN2006.html to http://dickens.ucsc.edu/bibliographies/NN2006.html

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title: Talk:Nicholas Nickleby


text:
Family BASIC

Family BASIC (ファミリーベーシック) is a consumer product for programming on the Family Computer video game console. Family BASIC was launched on June 21, 1984, to consumers in Japan by Nintendo, in cooperation with Hudson Soft and Sharp Corporation. A second version titled Family BASIC V3 was released on February 21, 1985, with greater memory and new features.

Overview
The first edition of the Family BASIC application cartridge is bundled with a computer style keyboard and instructional textbook, and requires a cassette tape recorder to save user-generated BASIC programs. Programs can be saved using any cassette tape drive, such as the Famicom Data Recorder. Family BASIC was not designed to be compatible with floppy disk storage on the Famicom Disk System and the Disk System's RAM adapter requires the use of the Famicom's cartridge slot, which prevents using the slot for the Family BASIC cartridge.

Family BASIC includes a dialect of the BASIC programming language enhanced for game development. Its HuBASIC command set is extended with support for sprites, animation, backgrounds, musical sequences, and gamepads. Several visual components of Nintendo games, such as backgrounds and characters from the Mario and Donkey Kong series c. 1984-1985, are Family BASIC development componentry, or appear in premade Family BASIC games.

Like Integer BASIC and Tiny BASIC, the Family BASIC interpreter only supports integers. It is based on Hudson Soft BASIC for the Sharp MZ80. Its keywords are in English.

Development
Family BASIC was released in Japan by Nintendo for the Family Computer on June 21, 1984, in Japan. As part of a collaboration between Nintendo, Sharp Corporation, and Hudson Soft, it was created to attract computer users over to the new Famicom. Koji Kondo wrote a section in the instruction manual for programming Japanese popular music in the game, as his second project for Nintendo. Prior to this, Kondo had become interested in producing music through computers by programming sound effects in BASIC on his home computer. Two revisions of Family BASIC were produced — the first, "v.2.1", was released shortly after production of the game begun, and the second, "v.3.0", was released in early 1985. v.3.0 features expanded memory and several minigames built-in to the programming cartridge, indicated by a red cartridge shell.

Reception
Family BASIC was commercially successful, with more than 400,000 units sold by the end of the 1980s.

In a 2011 retrospective review, Retro Gamer thought it was a "some-what useless" peripheral for the Famicom due to its high price point and lack of compatibility with the Famicom Disk System, although they found it to be an interesting collection piece for its rarity and overall concept.

In IGN's 2013 retrospective of the Famicom's library that was lost to audiences outside Japan, Lucas Thomas called Family BASIC "a legitimate home computing solution". He criticized the interface as "nebulous to navigate" but wondered how "it would have been fun to see what America and Europe's often brilliant hobbyist game developers of the '80s could have crafted with these tools in hand".

Legacy
Cho Ren Sha 68K designer Koichi "Famibe No Yosshin" Yoshida used Family BASIC to create two shoot 'em up games titled Zacner and Zacner II. Satoshi Tajiri, creator of Pokémon, initially used Family BASIC as a gateway to build his understanding of the internal operation of the Famicom. This inspired him to create his own handmade Famicom game development hardware, and make Game Freak's debut game Quinty, later released as Mendel Palace (1990).

title: Family BASIC


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paladin class starship

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. Golbez 01:10, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Paladin class starship
It's a stub; it's a Trek-stub; it's a Trek-stub to a supposed class of ships I've never heard of, and which the article does no more than name. It's been around over a year and neither the original author nor anyone else has said why these ships are notable, or given one example of one, or of an episode in which they're played a part. VfD for minimal relevance. 62.25.106.209 10:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete only Google hits seem to be WP mirrors. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 12:10, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as non-canon unless someone can provide episode/film citation for its use. Question, however: are anonymous users allowed to post VFDs? 23skidoo 12:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Why not? They're members of the community.  --Xcali 15:05, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * No biggie. I just thought there was a rule that only registered users can VFD. 23skidoo 17:42, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete: Only registered users can vote, but, oddly enough, anyone can nominate. IP nominators cannot have their nominations counted as a vote, though. As for the article, it's a stub and fiction.  Geogre 18:47, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I still don't see this rule in the official policy. It only says that anonymous votes may be ignored at the administrator's discretion. 132.205.94.190 20:14, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not canon. But anonymous users can also vote. From the VFD main page "Anonymous and new users are welcome to contribute to the discussion, but their votes may be discounted, especially if they seem to be made in bad faith.". Note the "may be discounted". If the closer is convinced that an anonymous vote was made in good faith, it may be counted just like any other. Sjakkalle (Check!)  06:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Canon, schmanon, this is Wikipedia, not an official Paramount website.  This article sure could use some expansion. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-canon cruft. Quale 23:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Fancruft Proto 14:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. I don't think something necessarily has to be canon to deserve an article of its own, but it does need to be notable. I don't think this qualifies. -- Captain Disdain 23:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Appears to be fan-fiction. http://www.trekmania.net/art/paladin_class.htm says "Paladin Class is a vessel of my own invention...." Fictional fiction stubs? Nah. Gary 00:32, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


text: Category:Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway locomotives


text:
The Old Huntsman

The Old Huntsman is a 1917 collection of poems by Siegfried Sassoon and the name of the first poem in the collection. It contains one of the famous poems of Sassoon, "The Death Bed."

title: The Old Huntsman


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Granta Omega

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was already merged with list of minor Star Wars characters. Sjakkalle (Check!)  12:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Granta Omega
A page on a minor Star Wars character, I suggest merger with the list of minor Star Wars characters CunningLinguist 10:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * So do I. Merge. Radiant_ >|< 10:58, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, I merged them :) Now what? -CunningLinguist 11:05, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * So this discussion is no longer relevant :) Radiant_ >|< 11:11, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Now redirect to wherever you merged it. Geogre 18:48, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Its done, it now redirects to List of minor Star Wars characters where it was merged. However, could someone check out how the name on this character works? Is Omega his last name or some kind of title? I put it under a G alphabetically but it seems most of the other entries are done by last name, Id appreciate if someone checked that out or fixed it as they see fit. -CunningLinguist 20:49, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


text:
Talk:Germfree Adolescents

Track Title Varied Spellings
The spelling of some X-Ray Spex tracks is inconsistant (e.g. "The Day the World Turned Day-Glo"/ "The Day The World Turned Dayglo") so I have used the spelling in the Guinness Book of British Hit Singles for the single's spellings (as that is usually what is actually printed on the single label) and the album spelling for the album track listing. Ian Dunster 10:28, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Removed
I removed the following from this article:

Germ Free Adolescents was a group of Kent State University, (Kent, Ohio) students that adopted the Germ Free Adolescents moniker in honour of their punky pioneer predecessors. http://www.clepunk.com/bands/gfa/index.htm. The band toured and recorded from 1985-1991. http://www.myspace.com/germfreeadolescents http://geocities.com/speedmop/

It's irrelevant to the article, might be more appropriate for a disambig page, but there's no article on the Kent state group to disambig. Dina 19:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Written By?

Who were the tracks written by? This would help to make the article more definitive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.191.223 (talk) 23:05, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

What the serious & frightening fuck happened to the studio version of this album (Germfree Adolescents by X-Ray Spex)?
I can no longer find the studio version of Germfree Adolescents by X-Ray Spex on any streaming music site, not to mention the vast deluxe version that used to be available. I'm extremely certain I purchased & OWNED the album - the vinyl, CD, AND electronic versions - but it's vanished from my library completely. The only thing I can ever find recently (for at least a few months) is some unfortunately-recorded live show that I can't endure.

Can anyone please help me and/or explain wtf is happening? Is this some Berenstain Bears, Mandela Effect shit? 108.162.37.202 (talk) 09:28, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Germfree Adolescents


text:
Cadence rampa

Cadence rampa (kadans ranpa, ), or simply kadans, is a dance music and modern méringue popularized in the Caribbean by the virtuoso Haitian sax player Webert Sicot in the early 1960s. Cadence rampa was one of the sources of cadence-lypso. Cadence and compas are two names for the same Haitian modern méringue.

Ethnology
Cadence rampa literally means rampart rhythm.

History
Webert Sicot left Nemours Jean-Baptiste's compas band and called his music cadence to differentiate it from compas especially when he took it abroad, and so the rivalry between Sicot and Nemours created these names. Sicot created a new rhythm, cadence rampa, to counter compas, but it was only in a spirit of competition. The rhythm of cadence rampa was identical to compas except for the addition of the second drum that sounded on every fourth beat.

In the 1930s several biguine artists from Martinique and Guadeloupe moved to France, where they achieved great popularity in Paris, especially in the wake of the colonial exhibition in 1931. Early stars like Alexandre Stellio and Sam Castandet became popular in Paris. Between the 1930s and 1950s, the dance biguine was popular among the islands' dance orchestras. Its popularity abroad died relatively quickly, but it lasted as a major force in popular music in Martinique and Guadeloupe until Haitian cadence and compas took over in the 1950s. In the later part of the 20th century, biguine musicians like clarinet virtuoso Michel Godzom helped revolutionize the genre. The signature sound of the biguine is the interplay between the clarinet and trombone, both solo and as a duet, which can still be heard today throughout Antilles music, from the most traditional forms like cadence or the pop sounds of today's zouk.

The Sicot brothers, Maestro Webert Sicot and composer Raymond Sicot, are well regarded in the Caribbean for their rigorous harmonic skills. They introduced the méringue-cadence to the Caribbean, specifically the French Antilles of Martinique and Guadeloupe around 1962, from where it spread to Dominica. From the 60s to the 70s, Dominica, Guadeloupe and Martinique were replete with cadence bands like Selecta, La Perfecta, Les Aiglons, Grammacks, Exile One, Les Vikings de Guadeloupe, and Abel Zenon et son combo.

Style
Cadence music is characterized by a constant uptempo rhythm, hence the name cadence. Its percussive aspect comes from the drum (in particular, the steady one-beat bass drum), an accentuated use of cymbals and, to a lesser extent, the high hat plus a distinct beat of the cowbell, tok, to-tok, tok-tok-tok, and a conga drum beating a dash of méringue.

title: Cadence rampa


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Geodetic control network

A geodetic control network is a network, often of triangles, that are measured precisely by techniques of control surveying, such as terrestrial surveying or satellite geodesy. It is also known as a geodetic network, reference network, control point network, or simply control network.

A geodetic control network consists of stable, identifiable points with published datum values derived from observations that tie the points together.

Classically, a control is divided into horizontal (X-Y) and vertical (Z) controls (components of the control), however with the advent of satellite navigation systems, GPS in particular, this division is becoming obsolete.

In the U.S., there is a national control network called the National Spatial Reference System (NSRS).

Many organizations contribute information to the geodetic control network.

The higher-order (high precision, usually millimeter-to-decimeter on a scale of continents) control points are normally defined in both space and time using global or space techniques, and are used for "lower-order" points to be tied into. The lower-order control points are normally used for engineering, construction and navigation. The scientific discipline that deals with the establishing of coordinates of points in a control network is called geodesy.

Cartography applications

After a cartographer registers key points in a digital map to the real world coordinates of those points on the ground, the map is then said to be "in control". Having a base map and other data in geodetic control means that they will overlay correctly.

When map layers are not in control, it requires extra work to adjust them to line up, which introduces additional error. Those real world coordinates are generally in some particular map projection, unit, and geodetic datum.

Triangulation

In "classical geodesy" (up to the sixties) control networks were established by triangulation using measurements of angles and of some spare distances. The precise orientation to the geographic north is achieved through methods of geodetic astronomy. The principal instruments used are theodolites and tacheometers, which nowadays are equipped with infrared distance measuring, data bases, communication systems and partly by satellite links.

Trilateration

Electronic distance measurement (EDM) was introduced around 1960, when the prototype instruments became small enough to be used in the field. Instead of using only sparse and much less accurate distance measurements some control networks were established or updated by using trilateration more accurate distance measurements than was previously possible and no angle measurements.

EDM increased network accuracies up to 1:1 million (1 cm per 10 km; today at least 10 times better), and made surveying less costly.

Satellite geodesy

The geodetic use of satellites began around the same time. By using bright satellites like Echo I, Echo II and Pageos, global networks were determined, which later provided support for the theory of plate tectonics.

Another important improvement was the introduction of radio and electronic satellites like Geos A and B (1965–70), of the Transit system (Doppler effect) 1967-1990 — which was the predecessor of GPS - and of laser techniques like LAGEOS (USA, Italy) or Starlette (France). Despite the use of spacecraft, small networks for cadastral and technical projects are mainly measured terrestrially, but in many cases incorporated in national and global networks by satellite geodesy.

Global navigation satellite systems (GNSS)

Nowadays, several hundred geospatial satellites are in orbit, including a large number of remote sensing satellites and navigation systems like GPS and Glonass, which was followed by the European Galileo satellites in 2020 and China's Beidou constellation.

While these developments have made satellite-based geodetic network surveying more flexible and cost effective than its terrestrial equivalent for areas free of tree canopy or urban canyons, the continued existence of fixed point networks is still needed for administrative and legal purposes on local and regional scales. Global geodetic networks cannot be defined to be fixed, since geodynamics are continuously changing the position of all continents by 2 to 20 cm per year. Therefore, modern global networks like ETRS89 or ITRF show not only coordinates of their "fixed points", but also their annual velocities.

title: Geodetic control network


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The Boy Who Kicked Pigs

The Boy Who Kicked Pigs is a short novel by actor Tom Baker. The novel is subtitled, "A grotesque masterpiece", and is illustrated with line drawings by David Roberts.

Plot
The novel begins by announcing that today will be the day that a young boy, Robert Caligari, dies. Robert is an extremely odd boy who cannot stop himself from kicking pigs. This begins as a private act of revenge against his sister, Nerys, who is always putting money in her own tin piggy bank. Robert is angry at Nerys constantly rattling the pig in front of him and so takes great pleasure in kicking the pig across the room whenever he is alone.

Robert's obsession with kicking pigs gets worse and one day, he kicks his sister's piggy bank out of the window, causing chaos for his neighbors and a local police officer. The last straw for Robert's mother is when he kicks a rather large woman's bagged pork chops, which she had just bought at the local butcher's shop.

After a local man finally gets revenge on Robert by throwing him over a church wall, Robert realizes that he hates people. While Robert's neighbors soon come to the conclusion that he is a nice young boy, he is plotting revenge. After poisoning his sister's food, he decides to trick an old blind man into crossing a road of busy traffic. Unfortunately for the old man, this proves fatal, yet nobody suspects Robert's involvement.

Robert engineers another, far worse, road accident in the next step of his evil plan. However, in the process of doing so, he finds himself trapped in his secret hideaway, where he is about to face a truly terrible fate.

Adaptations
The book has been adapted for stage by theatre company Kill the Beast, and was performed at The Lowry, Greater Manchester, 21–23 June 2012, and at Jacksons Lane, London.

title: The Boy Who Kicked Pigs


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It's OK! (band)

It's OK! is a musical group formed by Redd Kross members Robert Hecker (guitar, vocals) and Victor Indrizzo (drums), along with bassist Abby Travis and the late Greg White on vocals. This initial line up of the band released the self-titled debut album It's OK!.

The line up of Robert Hecker (guitar, vocals), Dave Naz (drums), Ellen Rooney (vocals, factotum), and Matt Smith (bass, vocals) recorded the second It's OK! album, Dream.

The line-up of Robert Hecker (guitar, vocals), Ellen Rooney (vocals, factotum), Dennis McGarry (bass, vocals), and Joey Mancaruso (drums, vocals) were signed by Exene Cervenka of X to Moonlight Graham Records.; however, It's OK!'s third album, Cubed, was released on Econoclast Recordings. The quartet's fourth release is aptly titled 4.

It's OK! toured California, Oregon, and Washington with Frightwig in June, 2014.

It's OK! toured California, Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and Nevada in September, 2023.

In December, 2023, it was announced that former Muffs / Redd Kross drummer Roy McDonald had joined It's OK!, and that they were working on their fifth album.

It's OK! performed at BeachLife Festival in Redondo Beach, CA on May 5, 2024, on a bill featuring ZZ Top.

Discography

 * It's OK!
 * Dream
 * Cubed
 * 4

title: It's OK! (band)