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Bak Mei

Bak Mei is said to have been one of the legendary Five Elders—survivors of the destruction of the Shaolin Monastery by the Qing dynasty (1644–1912)—who, according to some accounts, betrayed Shaolin to the imperial government. He shares his name with the South Chinese martial art attributed to him.

Bak Mei has been fictionalized in Hong Kong martial arts films such as Executioners from Shaolin (1977), Abbot of Shaolin (1979), and Clan of the White Lotus (1980). Bak Mei as a fictional character is better known in the West as Pai Mei, played by Gordon Liu in the Hollywood action film Kill Bill, Vol. 2 (2004).

Background
Accounts of the Five Elders are many and varied, with some versions identifying the traitor as Bak Mei and others as Ma Ning-Yee. In other versions, both elders betray Shaolin, sometimes along with Fung Do-Duk. Still others say that “Bak Mei” was actually a nickname for either Ma Ning-Yee or Fung Do-Duk.

The degree to which stories of the Five Elders are based on historical fact remains unverified. Their ubiquity and widespread popularity can be at least partially attributed to Wuxia novels (such as Wan Nian Qing), as well as the mythology around anti-Qing organizations such as the Heaven and Earth Society, which were spreading rapidly through China in the early 19th century. Whether justified or not, Bak Mei's traitorous reputation led to animosity between practitioners of his namesake martial art and practitioners of martial arts identified with those whom he is accused of betraying.

In the accounts of some Bak Mei practitioners, their founder did not so much betray Shaolin as decline to join their rebellion against the Qing. Other accounts portray Bak Mei as having been banished from Shaolin Temple because he killed several of his fellow monks when he first began practicing his new fighting style. Some Bak Mei practitioners have interpreted this to prove that their founder's style was superior to that of the Shaolin disciples he allegedly killed.

Historical Bak Mei
According to legend, Bak Mei played an important part in the downfall of Shaolin temples. Manchu conquered China in 1644. Before then, China had been ruled by the Ming Dynasty, which had been weakened by internal corruption and rebellion. The Manchu dynasty became known as the Qing Dynasty. As part of the Manchu campaign to pacify China, they attacked some Buddhist Shaolin Temples. The leader of the Shaolin Temple, Hong Mei (“Red Eyebrows”) died, leaving his legacy to Chi Thien Su, also known as Jee Sin, one of the five Great Kung Fu Masters. According to some stories another such master, Chu Long Tuyen, the monk who would later become Bak Mei, did not accept this. He believed the Ming had become corrupt and Chi Thien Su would still serve them; Bak Mei would rather serve the foreign Qing Dynasty. Then came the attack against the Shaolin Temple at Quanzhou in Fujian province in 1647. Some sources indicate that this temple was actually in Henan, or that the invading forces recruited help from Tibetan warriors in the attack. The Five Elders survived, however, and soon Chi Thien Su would found a second Shaolin Temple at Nine Lotus Mountain, also in Fujian Province. The Five Kung Fu Masters survived the first destruction of the Shaolin Temple by Qing Imperial forces and sought shelter in another temple, Fujian Temple, but the other monks were massacred. After Bak Mei refused to provide his real name for fear of retribution (against his family and students - if they survived), the Abbott of the temple christened the monk “Bak Mei” - White Eyebrow. According to some stories, Bak Mei betrayed the Ming at this point, taking information about their plot against the Manchu to the Manchu Shunzhi Emperor, then returned with information about the Manchu attack plan to the Shaolin. After the temple was destroyed by the Manchu, Bak Mei left the temple to study Taoism. Bak Mei trained an anti-Imperial attack force but following capture of the force by the Imperials, was forced to teach and lead 50,000 Imperial troops in the second destruction of the Shaolin Temple at Henan to prevent those captured with him from being tortured and killed. There, Bak Mei slew the “invincible” Shaolin leader, Chi Thien Su, in single combat by breaking his neck. He claimed he did this to prevent the massacre of the monks in the temple by the troops who followed him. The tale of Bak Mei's death comes in many forms - it is often claimed that he was poisoned, or slain (in a grand battle) by other martial artists. Bak Mei is often portrayed as a traitor, however, it is important to note that Bak Mei's actions are not always consistent with this. Bak Mei's actions were undertaken, even to the destruction of the temple, with the intention of preventing harm to those who had chosen to follow him. It is possible that if Bak Mei had not aided the Imperial forces, his followers would have been tortured to death.

Historical Bak Mei according to the lineage of master Jie Kon Sieuw
During the reign of the Kangxi Emperor (r. 1661–1722) in the Qing dynasty, the warriors of the Xilufan revolt were so feared that the two ministers the Kangxi Emperor ordered to end their attacks fled China rather than face either the mercilessness of the Xilu warriors or the displeasure of the emperor, both of which often involved beheading.

It was the 128 monks of the southern Shaolin temple who defeated the army of Xilu over three months in 1673 without suffering a single casualty. However, by doing so the monks had made enemies of those in the Qing army and Qing court who were embarrassed by how easily the Shaolin monks had succeeded where they had failed. Soon rumors began to spread about the threat posed by a power so great that it defeated the entire Xilu army with a force of only 128 monks. This campaign of innuendo was wasted on the Kangxi Emperor, who remained grateful to the monks, but the rumors had their intended effect on his successor, the Yongzheng Emperor (r. 1722–1735), who ordered the temple's destruction.

In 1723, on the sixth day of the first new moon of the lunar calendar, Qing forces launched a sneak attack on the southern Shaolin temple, which began by bombarding the largely wooden monastery with a relentless deluge of burning arrows. Between the surprise attack, the fire, and the overwhelming number of Qing soldiers, 110 out of the 128 monks were killed that day. The Great Shaolin Purge took 70 days as Qing forces hunted down the 18 survivors. The surviving warrior monks of Shaolin inflicted massive casualties on their Qing pursuers but, in the end, their numbers were too great. Soon only five remained:
 * The Chan master Jee Sin
 * The nun Ng Mui
 * The Taoist Bak Mei
 * The Taoist Fung Dou Dak
 * The "unshaved" (lay) Shaolin student Miu Hin

After two years of running and hiding from the Qing army, these fugitives of the cloth regrouped at Mount Emei in Sichuan Province. As one of the sacred mountains of China, Mount Emei was home to about 70 monasteries and temples where the five clerics could blend in easily.

It was decided that Bak Mei would infiltrate the Qing imperial court as a spy while the others travelled throughout China to establish an alliance of anti-Qing rebels. However, the more Bak Mei learned, the more he realized that his allies’ efforts would never be enough to overthrow the Qing, and so he left the rebellion, who took this as a betrayal, forcing Bak Mei on the run from those he was once on the run with. Almost all of the rebels who over the years sought to murder Bak Mei for his withdrawal from the struggle ended up dead at Bak Mei's hands, including Jee Sin and Miu Hin's son, Fong Sai-yuk, whom Bak Mei had known since Fong was a small boy. In other accounts, Fong Sai-yuk is not Miu Hin's son but his grandson.

Comments
Both these versions of the legend of Pai Mei come from inheritors of Bak Mei Kung Fu yet are very different from each other. Accounts of the Bak Mei and the Five Great Kung Fu Masters are many and varied. The latter account names the Shaolin traitor as Ma Ning-Yee rather than Bak Mei, though that detail was omitted for reasons of length. In other versions, Bak Mei and Ma Ning-Yee both betray Shaolin, sometimes joined by Fung Do-Duk. Still other versions say that “Bak Mei” is a nickname for either Ma Ning-Yee or Fung Do-Duk. For that matter, the legend of Bak Mei may have no basis in historical fact at all, and come solely from wuxia novels like Wan Nian Qing. The legends are particularly confused because some temples were burned down repeatedly, including after the time of Bak Mei.

Bak Mei Kung Fu
Bak Mei is characterized by its emphasis on powerful close range hand strikes. Within Bak Mei can be found the four principles of Fou (Float), Chum (Sink), Tun (Swallow), and Tou (Spit) common in the Southern Chinese martial arts like Ng Ying Kungfu, and also found in Karate. Unique to Bak Mei is its classification of the following 6 powers: biu (thrusting), chum (sinking), tan (springing), fa (neutralizing), tung, and chuk. Bak Mei emphasizes the movements of the tiger. The traditions of Bak Mei Kung Fu trace its origins to Mount Emei, where Bak Mei is said to have transmitted the art to the Chan (Zen) master Gwong Wai, who transmitted the art to the Chan master Juk Faat Wan and the Taoist Fung Fo.

Futshan branch
The Taoist Fung Fo in turn passed the art on to Lau Siu-Leung, who established the Futshan lineage of Bak Mei.

Cheung Lai-Chuen branch
Cheung Lai-Chuen began his study of the martial arts at the age of 7 with the traditional Chinese medicine practitioner Shak Lim, who taught him the Vagrant style. Later, Cheung would learn from Li Mung, who taught Chueng his family style, and from the Lam Yiu-Kwai's older uncle. While he was studying martial arts with the Lam family, he became close friends with their son Lam Yiu-Kwai, with whom he had much in common. Lam would later become known for disseminating Dragon Kung Fu much as Cheung would later become known for disseminating Bak Mei. Both were born in Hu¨¬y¨¢ng (»Ýê–) County in the prefecture of Huizhou in Guangdong and a marriage between their families would eventually make them cousins. They both left Huizhou to build their futures in Guangzhou and did so by opening several schools together. After moving to Guangzhou, Cheung was defeated by the monk Lin Sang after which the monk referred Cheung to his own teacher master Juk Faat Wan, who taught Cheung the art of Bak Mei over the next two or three years. Cheung had a background in Hakka Kuen, the martial arts of the Hakka people, from his study of the family style of Li Mung and the Vagrant style, which are both identified with the Hakka, as is Southern Praying Mantis (which Cheung is not known to have trained in). Because of this, Cheung's style of Bak Mei is associated with Hakka Kuen, but more strongly still with the Dragon style of Lam Yiu-Kwai¡ªwho is also said to have had a background in Hakka Kuen¡ªdue to the many years Cheung and Lam spent training together.

Historical origins of Bai Mei
In 2012, academic research was done on the historical origins of the style of Baimei Quan (Pak Mei Kuen or White Eyebrow Fist) and the validity of the monk Bai Mei, using the resources of US University Professors of Chinese and Buddhist Studies as well as Mr. Xiong Feng of the Emei Shan Museum, Sichuan, China.

The earliest reference to the monk Bai Mei as an actual person comes in the Wuxia novel called Wunnian Qing (A Thousand Years Green or Evergreen) as being one of the five Elders who survived the sacking of the Shaolin Temple (circa 1727) by the Qing army. Yet there are problems with this source: it is a work of fiction, and there is no historical evidence to suggest that the Shaolin Temple of Henan Province was ever attacked and destroyed by the Qing armies but this is not unexpected considering the destruction of many martial texts in Shaolin history.

Guanghui means Vast Benevolence and is a typical Buddhist nomination for either a monk or a temple; indeed there are several temples throughout China that bear this name. Yet on searching through the surviving gazetteers for Mount Emei there is no mention of a monk named Guanghui. There is no material evidence to suggest that Guanghui came from Emei Shan; all we have is the oral tradition from Zhang Liquan (Cheung Lai Chuen) that his Shifu, Zhu Fayun, came from a temple in Sichuan Province.

Zhu Fayun. Fa, in the context of a monk's name, means Buddhist Teachings and Yun means Cloud. The Chinese character Zhu formed part of the ancient word Tianzhu, meaning India. Zhu Fayun is said to have been a Buddhist monk from Emei Shan in Sichuan Province on a pilgrimage to the Guangxiao (Bright Filial Monastery), in Guangzhou. This is entirely plausible as the Guangxiao monastery is one of the oldest temples in south China as well as being one of the most influential Buddhist shrines. During his stay in Guangxiao, Zhu Fayun committed to teach Zhang Liquan (Cheung Lai Chuen) the Baimei arts.

Zhang Liquan (1882–1964). It would seem that Zhang Liquan was essentially an honest man with respect to his martial arts. He learnt three different styles from three different masters prior to having met Zhu Fayun. He formally acknowledges each of his former Shifu by name and honors them by keeping at least one of their forms in the Pak Mei syllabus. At a later stage in his career, Zhang Liquan formulated several of his own forms, including Tuotiao Quan (Cantonese: Tit Til Kuen) and Simen Bagua (Cantonese: Say Mun Ba Gua) which he openly professed were his own works. It would appear contradictory to suggest that such a man, who has been totally honest about the origins of all that he has learnt, would deny the existence of one teacher, or indeed invent a fictional character to disguise his own works when he has already affirmed creating several of his own.

All the supplementary forms in the Pak Mei syllabus, whatever the original style, fall under the collective classification of Nan Quan (Southern Fist) or more precisely Dong Jiang Quan (East River Fist). A common denominator to all these forms is that they are divided into two parts; the second being a repetition of the first, performed in the opposite direction. They also have numerous stances and techniques in common and share similar terminology and methodology.

Bak Mei according to the lineage of Nam Anh
Ming China, which had been weakened by corruption and internal rebellion, was overtaken by the Manchu people in 1644. Hong Mei ("Red Eyebrows"), abbot of the Southern Shaolin Temple, died during this time and his position was passed onto Chi Thien Su, known by his Dharma name Jee Sin Sim See, "Chan teacher Perfection". Another master named Chu Long Tuyen did not accept this. He believed the Ming had become corrupt and would rather serve the Manchu Qing dynasty.

In 1647 Manchu forces attacked the Southern Shaolin Temple in Quanzhou, Fujian. Only five masters managed to escape, and since then became known as the Five Elders.

Chi Thien Su, one of the Five Elders, founded another temple at Nine Lotus Mountain in Fujian where the survivors sought shelter. Chu Long Tuyen refused to provide his real name for fear of retribution against his family and students, in case they survived. The abbot then christened him Bak Mei "White Eyebrows". According to some stories, Bak Mei betrayed the Ming by taking information about their plot against the invaders to the Shunzhi Emperor, then returned with information about the Manchu attack plan to the Shaolin. After the temple was destroyed, Bak Mei and Fong Toh Tak (creator of the Bak Fu Pai) left the temple on separate paths in order to study Taoism.

Bak Mei trained an anti-imperial attack force but, following capture of the force by the imperials, was forced to teach and lead 50,000 imperial troops in the second destruction of the Shaolin Temple to prevent those captured with him from being tortured and killed. There, Bak Mei slew the "invincible" Shaolin leader Jee Sin in single combat by breaking his neck. He claimed he did this to prevent the massacre of the monks in the temple by the troops who followed him.

While he is often portrayed as a traitor, Bak Mei's actions were undertaken, including the destruction of the temple, with the intention of preventing harm to those who had chosen to follow him. It is possible that if Bak Mei had not aided the imperial forces, his followers would have been tortured to death.

Bak Mei according to the lineage of Jie Kon Siew
During the reign of the Kangxi Emperor (1662–1722), the warriors of the Xilufan rebellion were so feared that the two ministers whom Kangxi ordered to quell the revolt fled China rather than face the mercilessness of the Xilu warriors, which often involved beheading. In 1673, over a period of three months, the 128 monks of the southern Shaolin Temple defeated the Xilu army without suffering a single casualty. However, by doing so they had made enemies of some Qing officers who were embarrassed by how easily the Shaolin monks had succeeded where they had failed.

Rumors soon began to spread about the threat posed by a power so great that it defeated the entire Xilu army with a force of only 128 monks. This campaign of innuendo was wasted on the Kangxi Emperor, who remained grateful to the monks, but the rumors had their intended effect on his successor, the Yongzheng Emperor (1722–1735). He began his reign by plotting the temple's destruction and was said to have secretly recruited a band of renegade warrior monks from Tibet to carry out his plan.

In 1723, on the 6th day of the first new moon of the lunar calendar, a former Shaolin disciple named Ma Ning-Yee aided Qing forces to launch a sneak attack on the southern Shaolin Temple. They began the assault by bombarding the largely wooden monastery with a relentless deluge of burning arrows. Between the surprise attack, the fire, and the overwhelming number of Qing soldiers, 110 out of the 128 monks were killed that day. The Great Shaolin Purge took 70 days as Qing forces hunted down the 18 survivors. The surviving monks of Shaolin inflicted massive casualties on their Qing pursuers but, in the end, their numbers were too great.

Soon only five remained. Their identities vary but they are generally accepted as the following: After two years of running and hiding from the Qing army, these fugitives of the cloth regrouped at Mount Emei in Sichuan Province. As one of the sacred mountains of China, Mount Emei was home to about 70 monasteries and temples where the five clerics could blend in easily.
 * The Chan Monk Jee Sin
 * The Shaolin Abbess Ng Mui Si Tai
 * The Chan Monk Bak Mei
 * The Daoist Fung Do-Duk who later created the white tiger style
 * The "unshaved" (lay) disciple Miu Hin

It was decided that Bak Mei would infiltrate the Qing court as a spy while the others travelled throughout China to establish an alliance of anti-Qing rebels. The more Bak Mei learned, the more he realized that his allies' efforts would never be enough to overthrow the Qing. He decided to give up on the rebellion, which was seen as a betrayal.

Death
Bak Mei was eventually killed but accounts disagree on whether he was poisoned or slain. Over the years, the rebels sought to punish Bak Mei for his defection. Almost all who made an attempt on his life ended up dead at Bak Mei's hands. This included Jee Sin and Miu Hin's son Fong Sai Yuk (Miu Hin's grandson according to other sources) whom Bak Mei had known since Sai Yuk was a small boy. Some say he was finally killed by the combined effort of Hoong Man Ting and Wu Ah Phiew who employed the Crane Style and the Tiger Style to avenge the burning of the Shaolin Temple and the death of their sigung (teacher's teacher), the Venerable Jee Sin, the Abbott whom Pak Mei is said to have killed in a duel during the burning of the temple.

Bak Mei Pai
The Bak Mei Pai traces its origins to Mount Emei, where Bak Mei is said to have transmitted the art to the Chan (Zen) master Gwong Wai who then passed it on to Juk Faat Wan.

Bak Mei's fighting style makes use of the four principles of "floating" (fou), "sinking" (chum), "swallowing" (tun) and "spitting" (tou) common in the southern Chinese martial arts. It is characterized by its emphasis on powerful close range hand strikes. Bak Mei strikes are usually executed in conjunction with intercepting and jamming the opponent's strike. Unique to Bak Mei, is its classification of the following 6 neijin (powers): biu (thrusting), chum (sinking), tan (springing), fa (neutralizing), tung, and chuk. Bak-Mei can produce effects on the nervous system that benefit the practitioner if taught correctly. Bak-Mei emphasizes the techniques of Leopard Kung Fu and its strikes are executed with fluidity and power via Fa jin. Additionally, it contains numerous Dim-Mak applications. These applications are comparable with anatomy focused arts such as tuite and chin-nah. Some of these applications involve throwing, takedowns, and restraining techniques.

Fushan branch
According to the Fatsan family tree, Pak Mei passed the art to Kwong Wai, Chuk Yun, Fung Fo Dao Yan, Lau Siu-Leung (刘少良) who established the Fatsan lineage of Bak Mei. (source: Barbary Jonathan)

Jeung Lai Chuen branch
Jeung Lai Chuen began his study of the martial arts at the age of 7 with the Classical Chinese Medicine practitioner Sek Lam, who taught him the vagrant style. Jeung would later learn Li Style from Li Mung, (founded by Li Yi李義) who taught Jeung his family style. While he was studying martial arts with the Lam family, he became close friends with their son Lam Yiu Gwai, with whom he had much in common, and eventually studied under Yiu Gwai's uncle. Lam would later become known for disseminating Dragon Kung Fu much as Jeung would later become known for disseminating Bak Mei. Both were born in Huìyáng County (惠陽) in the Huizhou prefecture of Guangdong and a marriage between their families would eventually make them cousins. They both left Huizhou to build their futures in Guangzhou and did so by opening several schools together.

After moving to Guangzhou, Jeung was defeated by the monk Lin Sang after which the monk referred Jeung to his own teacher Juk Faat Wan, who taught Jeung the art of Bak Mei over the next two or three years. Jeung had a background in the martial arts of the Hakka people, from his study of Li Mung's family style and the vagrant style. Because of this, Jeung's style of Bak Mei is associated the dragon style of Lam Yiu Gwai due to the many years Jeung and Lam spent training together.

Bak Mei Forms: This is an example of a form curriculum.
 * 直步標指 - Jik Bou Biu Ji
 * 十字拳 - Sup Ji Kuen (also called Sup Ji)
 * 石獅拳 - Sek Si Kuen (also called Sek Si)
 * 三門八卦 - Saam Mun Baat Gwa Kuen
 * 四門八卦 - Sei Mun Baat Gwa Kuen
 * 九步推 - Gau Bou Tui
 * 鷹爪黏橋 - Ying Jow Lim Kiu
 * 金剛拳 - Gam Gong Kuen (created by 5th gen Chan Gwok Wah)
 * 地煞拳 - Dei Saat Kuen
 * 十八摩橋 - Sap Baat Moh Kiu
 * 猛虎出林 - Maang Fu Chut Lam
 * 五行摩 - Ng Hang Moh

Early disciples
Cheung Lai Chuen's first set of six disciples in Guangzhou were:

(Chinese)   (Cantonese)        (Mandarin) 邱人和       Yau Yan Wo /       Qiu Renhe 劉鑫容       Lau Yam Yung /    Liu Xinrong 朱百貴      Jyu/Chu Bak Gwai / Zhu Baigui 葉竹林         Yip Juk Lam /    Ye Zhulin 王耀光       Wong Yiu Gwong / Wang Yaoguang 李達橋          Lei Dat Kiu / Li Daqiao

title: Bak Mei


text: User talk:212.202.51.98

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:212.202.51.98


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Biggenden

Biggenden is a rural town and locality in the North Burnett Region, Queensland, Australia. In the, the locality of Biggenden had a population of 788 people.

Geography
Biggenden is on the Isis Highway 287 km north-west of the state capital Brisbane, and 85 km west of Maryborough.

History
The name is derived from the Kabi word bigindhan meaning a place of stringybark.

Biggenden was founded in 1889 as a service centre to the short-lived goldrush towns of Paradise and Shamrock; and for coach passengers travelling west from Maryborough. The township, including the intriguingly named Live And Let Live Inn, moved to a new location alongside the railway station when the rail line arrived in 1891. Biggenden Post Office opened on 16 May 1891. Biggenden Provisional school opened on 9 May 1892 becoming Biggenden State School in 1900. In January 1953, the school experimented with offering high school subjects by correspondence. In 1958, a secondary school section was added.

The Biggenden Methodist Church opened on Monday 23 May 1910. In 1939, a church hall was established, using the Methodist Church building established in Woowoonga in 1919, which had formerly been the Methodist church in Mount Perry, built in 1872. In 1977 through the amalgamation that created the Uniting Church in Australia, it became Biggenden Uniting Church.

In June 1926, a meeting of local women decided to establish a branch of the Queensland Country Women's Association. In October 1928, the Biggenden branch's building was officially opened by J.C. Robertson, chairman of the Degilbo Shire Council.

The Mt Biggenden mine provided employment to the local community for over a hundred years, before its magnetite iron ore operation closed in 1999.

Demographics
In the, Biggenden had a population of 682 people.

In the, the locality of Biggenden had a population of 845 people.

In the, the locality of Biggenden had a population of 788 people.

Economy
Primary production is the most significant industry in the shire with beef and dairy cattle being predominant. Other agricultural pursuits include grain crops, piggeries, peanuts, citrus and timber. The area is also rich in minerals.

Biggenden Mine is located eight kilometres out of town off Ban Ban Springs Road. Gold, bismuth and more recently magnetite have been extracted from the mine. The township is also close to Coalstoun Lakes National Park and Mount Walsh National Park.

Paradise Dam
In November 2005, the Queensland Government opened the Paradise Dam, about 30 minutes north-west of Biggenden, on the Burnett River. The 300,000ML dam, which submerges the former gold mining town of the same name, is touted as securing the future of the nearby Bundaberg and Childers region, although no water will be available for residents of the Biggenden area. However, more than 400 jobs were created during its construction and the dam site is proving to be one of the shire's largest tourist attraction. Artefacts and buildings removed from Paradise before the dam wall was built are now on display by the Biggenden Historical Society, which operates from the relocated Paradise courthouse.

Education
Biggenden State School is a government primary and secondary (Prep-10) school for boys and girls at 3-9 Frederick Street (-25.5107°N, 152.0474°W). In 2017, the school had an enrolment of 143 students with 18 teachers (16 full-time equivalent) and 12 non-teaching staff (8 full-time equivalent).

The nearest government secondary schools providing education to Year 12 are Burnett State College in Gayndah to the west and Isis District State High School in Childers to the north-east.

Heritage listings
Biggenden has a number of heritage-listed sites:

 * 8 Edward Street: former Biggenden Courthouse (now Biggenden Museum)
 * 11 Edward Street & Airstrip Road: former Biggenden Butter Factory
 * 32 Edward Street: Biggenden QCWA Building

Amenities
Biggenden has a public library, swimming pool, bowling and golf club, memorial hall and showground.

The North Burnett Regional Council operates the Biggenden Library, located at 47 Edward Street, Biggenden.

The Biggenden branch of the Queensland Country Women's Association meets at the CWA Hall at 32 Edward Street.

Biggenden Uniting Church is at 32 George Street (-25.5102°N, 152.0444°W).

title: Biggenden


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Duster (clothing)

A duster is a light, loose-fitting, long coat.

History
The original dusters were full-length, light-colored canvas or linen coats worn by horsemen in the United States to protect their clothing from trail dust. These dusters were typically slit up the back to hip level for ease of wear on horseback.

Dusters intended for riding may have features such as a buttonable rear slit and leg straps to hold the flaps in place.

For better protection against rain, dusters were made from oilcloth and later from waxed cotton.

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, both men and women would wear dusters to protect their clothes when riding in open motorcars on the dirt roads of the day.

Today: Revival through film and television
Western horsemen's dusters figured little in Western films until Sergio Leone re-introduced them in his movies The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (1966) and Once Upon a Time in the West (1968). According to production designer Carlo Simi, Leone was fond of dusters. The two of them went to look for men's wear at the Western Costume shop in California, which was a very large warehouse on the Warner Brothers lot and were dispensing most costumes worn in Westerns filmed in the US. There, they happened upon some dustcoats for riding horse, which had already been shown in John Ford's The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. The coats were white but the Leone team changed them to chocolate brown.

In Once Upon a Time in the West, the character of Harmonica, portrayed by Charles Bronson, is looking at the dusters worn by the men of Cheyenne (Jason Robards), who asks him if he's "interested in men's fashion." Harmonica responds, "I saw three of these dusters a short time ago; they were waitin’ for a train. Inside the dusters there were three men...inside the men there were three bullets."

As Leone's westerns were "dramatically stylish," they also influenced with their costumes and choice of shots the world of fashion. Once Upon a Time was a massive hit in France, ranking 7th in the most attended films of all time. The film caused a fashion trend for duster coats in the French capital of such proportions that department stores, such as Au Printemps, affixed signs on escalators warning customers to keep their “maxis,” as they were called, clear from the edges of the moving steps in order to prevent jamming and injuries.

In the film genre of heroic bloodshed of Hong Kong films,the protagonists are often seen wearing dusters. In Kirk Wong's 1988 gangster film Gunmen, set in 1930s Shanghai, the protagonist (Tony Leung) wears a flowing Chinese robe similar to Leone's dusters. Director John Woo's 1986 A Better Tomorrow, featured Chow Yun Fat's character, nicknamed Brother Mark, wearing a duster. Following the film's release, many teenagers in Hong Kong came to wear dusters in emulation of Chow's character. In colloquial Cantonese, trench coats are called Mark Gor Lau (literally, "Brother Mark's coat").

The fictional anti-hero Omar Little wears dusters both as outerwear and as a silk sleepwear coverup in the HBO series, The Wire.

The Tenth Doctor played by David Tennant wore a cinnamon brown duster coat on Doctor Who. Van Pelt, the main antagonist in Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle, wore a dark brown duster coat. Harry Dresden from Jim Butcher's Dresden Files wears a duster, as well as other cowboy-like attire. In the television comedy series "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia", a black leather duster is featured in several episodes that is prized by several main characters, who often argue over who looks better wearing it.

In modern times, leather dusters are worn by motorcyclists to prevent road rash.

title: Duster (clothing)


text:
Talk:John Seigenthaler Pedestrian Bridge

Shelby Street Bridge vs Shelby Avenue Bridge
originally posted on User talk:Aussieintn: When the bridge re-opened 2 years ago The Tennessean did a feature story on this issue and it was determined that the bridge is indeed titled the Shelby Avenue Bridge, and now the Shelby Avenue Pedestrian Bridge. Zpb52 16:52, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The name of the bridge is the Shelby Street Bridge even though the street it leads to is named Shelby Avenue. If you walk down to the bridge, you'll see that all of the signage says "Shelby Street Bridge", which is also the name it is most commonly refered to as. Kaldari 06:09, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I am determined to win this argument, but it looks like a to-may-to, to-mah-to argument. It is referred to as both Shelby Street and Shelby Avenue, let's refer to it as both (i.e. Shelby Street/Shelby Avenue) and settle this little mini-edit war. Zpb52 06:18, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Regardless of what any websites or newspaper articles have to say on the matter, there is a substantial metal sign at the base of the bridge that says "Shelby Street Bridge / Constructed 1909 / Reopened 2003". There is also a large greenway sign for the bridge that identifies it as "Shelby Street Bridge". On nashville.gov (the only other primary source I can think of) the names are used in the following proportions:
 * Shelby Street Bridge - 46 pages
 * Shelby Street Pedestrian Bridge - 16 pages
 * Shelby Avenue Bridge - 8 pages
 * Shelby Avenue Pedestrian Bridge - 3 pages
 * Kaldari 09:05, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Win! *gloats* I think someone should take a picture of each sign and upload it as evidence. --Aussieintn 15:13, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I dug up the Tennessean article in question and I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that it declared the bridge's name to be the Shelby Avenue Bridge. On the contrary, the article emphasized the fact that the bridge's name had been a source of some confusion, and stated that the general consensus seemed to be that the name of the bridge was the Shelby Street Bridge:
 * "If you go by the signs that Metro government placed recently at either end, it is the Shelby Street Bridge... Most folks refer to it as the Shelby Street Bridge and have for more than four decades... Metro Public Works Department officials, who put the new signs on the bridge, said their own investigation has turned up no definitive answer on the legally designated name... The National Register of Historic Places lists its common name as Shelby Street Bridge and its historic name as Sparkman Street Bridge..."
 * Kaldari 05:12, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Kaldari is correct. You cannot argue with a sign.--BeckiGreen (talk) 21:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Pictures
It'd be great if someone could get some pictures of the bridge, hopefully one in the daytime and one at night. Also, if we could get a close up of the railings on the scenic overlooks that'd be great too. Kevin Rector (talk) 18:39, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm on it! Kaldari 20:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * That was quick. Do you live or work downtown or are you just really motivated? Kevin Rector (talk) 13:36, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * I live a few blocks from the bridge actually :) Kaldari 15:35, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * BTW, if anyone has better ideas for the photo captions, have at it. Kaldari 17:37, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good Work
I think this article is an example of how excellent the collaborative nature of Wikipedia can be. Good work to everyone who's contributed. Kevin Rector (talk) 13:41, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

As a trivia piece this was the bridge used in the video for "Save A Horse Ride A Cowboy" from Big & Rich.

New image needing placement
I'm not a regular at this article, so will leave it to others to place or not place this new image. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC) ✅ Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:05, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Kaldari (talk) 04:57, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Concrete arched trusses?
The article states that this bridge was the first to have concrete arched trusses. Should that be concrete arched piers? I have not seen this bridge in person, but it appears that the truss work is steel. Fred4570 (talk) 00:29, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The concrete arched trusses are underneath. See photo. Kaldari (talk) 21:00, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Bridge has been renamed
See, , and. Kaldari (talk) 20:56, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

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text:
Whitebait (disambiguation)

Whitebait is a collective term for the juvenile of various fish species worldwide.

Whitebait (disambiguation) may refer to:

 * Whitebait Smelt (Allosmerus elongatus), a species of smelt that lives off the west coast of North America
 * Operation Whitebait, an air attack on Berlin during the Second World War

title: Whitebait (disambiguation)


text: Template:Villagepumppagesbox

title: Template:Villagepumppagesbox


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dantareth

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE. Golbez 01:08, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Dantareth
Someone's homegrown AD&D campaign. Five google hits spread over three sites. Two are the name of a player on a mud; one is for an expired domain; two are for an unrelated Everquest quest that's far too granular to replace this with. Not notable. --Cryptic (talk) 06:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

delete non-notable XmarkX 06:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete non notable. JamesBurns 10:56, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete NN Lectonar 14:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Sounds like fun, not encyclopedic. Ashibaka (tock) 14:54, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I rolled a natural 20, so delete as vanity. Geogre 16:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


text: User talk:81.6.233.104

title: User talk:81.6.233.104


text:
Yennora railway station

Yennora railway station is located on the Main South line, serving the Sydney suburb of Yennora. It is served by Sydney Trains T2 Inner West & Leppington and T5 Cumberland line services.

History
Yennora station opened on 6 November 1927 and was funded by the local McCredie family, who were interested in land in the vicinity. The funding was provided with hopes the station would 'open up' access to the area, and on the initial condition that the cost of the station would be refunded when profits over three years justified such a refund.

Transport links
Yennora station is served by one NightRide route:
 * N60: Fairfield station to Town Hall station

title: Yennora railway station


text:
Talk:Mac transition to Intel processors

Rename proposal
Shall we call this article "The PPC-x86 transition of Apple Macintosh"? Apple is more than Macintosh. Intel is more than x86. And how about "migration"? -- Toytoy 07:22, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * "Macintosh x86 migration"? --Ihope127 22:44, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I support renaming. It's the Macintosh, not Apple, that is moving to Intel. "Macintosh Intel migration". jamiemcc 19:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

POV
I believe there's an insanely huge POV or RDF hidden inside this article:

 * Motorola and IBM failed to deliver a 3 GHz chip so Apple has to jump the boat.

This sounds non-sense and Apple-centric to me. If I am right, the Macintosh marketshare has been falling for the past few years. Anyway, Apple's marketshare has always been miserable. If you cannot let IBM or Motorola earn money, you don't get your chips. No one drinks Cool-Aid this time. This is exactly Apple's situation today. The money flow to nurish newer PPCs drained. That's why Jobs gets nothing. 68k failed. Now PPC, as a personal computer CPU, also fails.

Apple's marketshare has always been too small to support its hardware advancements. SCSI failed. ADB failed. NuBus failed. ADC failed. LocalTalk failed. The list goes on and on. There exists an established pattern of hardware standard failures. I think IBM and Motorola are Jobs' scapegoats.

Is there a foundmental problem with the PPC design? If PPC makes money, why don't IBM and Motorola spend more money on the R&D? Fact: Apple fails to keep them well fed. -- Toytoy 06:11, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * I wouldn't say any of those "failed" except maybe in the context of the greater PC world. Parallel SCSI in particular became an important standard because the Mac embraced it early on. The others got replaced mainly because something better came along; ADB begat USB, NuBus was replaced by PCI, LocalTalk was replaced by Ethernet. ADC is really the only non-starter on the list. The same thing applies to PowerPC, in this case; it's by no means an abject failure, but it's not the best tool for the job at the moment, and I think Apple is smart for realising that. -lee 05:52, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * That's completely false. Apple's marketshare has been rising for the last several years. Their revenues, unit sales, and profits are the highest they've ever been, and this isn't due exclusively or even mostly to the iPod and iTunes: those are simply publicity grabbers.

PowerPC most certainly did not "fail". Apple, IBM and Motorola created it together, and it's an extremely good performer in many categories. It has nothing to do with Apple keeping IBM and Freescale (formerly Motorola) "well fed". Apple buys millions of dollars worth of CPUs from both companies. However, IBM's (and Freescale's) focus is on an even bigger market for PowerPC: embedded communications, networking, vehicle controls, speciality devices, and so on, and now, all three of the major next generation gaming consoles. PowerPC powered all of Apple's products for over a decade, and continues to be heavily used by IBM in high-end servers and workstations. So while yes, I guess you could semantically argue that as a *desktop* processor, PowerPC "failed", I'd beg to differ. It's just time to move on. Did 80x86 "fail" because it was time to move to Pentium?

Further, yes, in the early days, the Apple hardware platform was very proprietary. However, I take great issue with the basis of some of your claims. Things like ADB and LocalTalk were around before there were any comparable standards to even do those jobs! The rest of the industry may not have picked them up (in part because of Apple's early closed systems), but things like LocalTalk and ADB, and even NuBus, were light years ahead of other competitors. At the time, SCSI was picked because it was the better technology: IDE/ATA was not a clear winner at the time, and SCSI was clearly better. Market dynamics and economics ended up meaning that when the PC industry at large picked IDE/ATA, it ended up being the winner because the market forced prices down, and PCs were, and continue to be, all about price and being a commodity. Even today, SCSI didn't "lose": it's still used in high performance applications where speed and other performance factors are key. Only today is SCSI being outmoded by other technologies. But I will concede that it lost *on the desktop*. But that's not the fault of Apple picking the arguably superior technologies, and where they didn't exist, creating their own. Moreover, Apple's inclusion of USB in the iMac, and the deletion of the floppy and all legacy ports, is viewed as one of the largest catalysts for USB in the entire industry. The PC industry never was so bold. ADC was a damned good idea: dual channel DVI and analog (you could use an ADC connector with DVI or VGA displays), integrated with power and USB and FireWire in one cable. It was completely open. But it never took off. Now, Apple has standardized on DVI.

Today's Macs are a virtual who's who of international and open standards in the hardware and software: ethernet (including the first mass market machines to ship with GigE), PCI, DVI, HD-15 VGA, USB, FireWire (IEEE-1394), Open Firmware (IEEE-1275), 802.11/WiFi, Bluetooth, PCI, PCI-X, ATA/SATA, etc., even implementing some standards before anyone in the PC industry has. You take WiFi for granted now; look where Apple was with AirPort two *years* before any comparably priced offerings were available in the PC marketplace, to say nothing of the additional two years it took to get remotely comparable ease of use with Windows XP SP2. The OS is based on completely open standards whenever possible, and while the whole OS itself is proprietary, the entire core OS is open source. Mac OS X is the single most desirable operating system in many scientific, life/bio-science, engineering, and even some IT marketplaces.

When Apple went to the G5 (IBM PowerPC 970), IBM promised 3GHz by 12 months from that date. Sure, no one can predict the future perfectly, but they missed that target by *over a year*. What was Apple to do? Now that Apple has removed the last vestige of what could even be remotely called non-mainstream hardware from their computers - namely, the CPU - and you still chastise them, while getting in factually incorrect jabs about how Apple's marketshare is decreasing; surely, Apple is around the corner from certain death! As it has been, apparently, for nigh on 30 years.

I'm not disagreeing that there wasn't POV garbage in the original article; what I'm saying is that your grossly overstated position is itself POV. Granted, it's not in the actual article, but neither is my reply. Apple absolutely switched from PowerPC because it was time. And it wasn't so much that they couldn't keep IBM and Motorola/Freescale "well fed", its that they couldn't keep them well fed at prices that would allow Apple to be more competitive in the general PC marketplace. This decision is nothing but a good one, and makes Macs essentially high-end, high-quality PCs. The ability to now run Mac OS X PLUS any x86 OS in a sure-to-exist virtual machine/vmware-like environment on a sleek Apple laptop (Apple hardware is consistently and continuously ranked #1, ahead of all other manufacturers, in quality, support, lack of need for repairs, and so on, by leading consumer organizations like Consumer Reports) will be a major coup for Apple.

In closing, your incorrect analysis is unfortunately somewhat common. I hope this helps to clear things up. - das@doit.wisc.edu

Rewrite needed
This article's problem isn't POV. The problem is the fact that it isn't an encyclopedia article; it's an essay full of opinion and analysis. It needs major work. Tverbeek 17:07, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I just finished up some heavy editing of the important bits, and I went ahead and deleted the whole Future section since it's not really relevant to the article, being mostly off-topic analysis. The Hurdles section could still use some rearranging, but most of the POV problems should be fixed now, hopefully. Let me know if there's anything I missed. -lee 05:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Emulation/Virtualisation
"Virtual PC, a Windows emulation solution for Apple PowerPC sold by Microsoft, could now enjoy much more success with performance improved through virtualisation rather than emulation. For those customers wishing to achieve a more conventional environment, a dual, triple, or even quadruple boot solution would likely be possible on an x86 Apple device."

Not sure if thisbelongs in the article or not, but it's a fair bet that as soon as the official animal is on the market, a version of WINE will be built for the platform, too (in much the same way as there's a version built for Solaris x86) enabling direct use of Windows applications in OSX.

Unless, of course, that's included and makes WINE totally unnecessary. But I'll also bet anything that Microsoft'll do everything in their power to prevent that from happening.

Dodger 07:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I second that, this article is a lot of words and little content. I came here searching for compatibility questions and find an article about customer perception in hard times of change in the Jobs cult. Gotta love those Mac egomaniacs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.56.119 (talk) 05:59, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Comparing Mac / Windows
I added a note about how Macs will be protected from Windows viruses because it doesn't give users admin access by default but it was reverted. It's cited in the Windows XP article in the criticisms section, so I'm going to put it back in. 24.166.150.105 22:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

 * It is also to note that even being an Administrator, to change something of the system, or install something with "System" privileges you MUST input the administrator password (unless you hack it, but you shouldn't do). However in Windows being an administrator allows any program you execute to get administrator or system privileges. — Claunia 22:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

That’s certainly one of the ways in which Mac OS X’s security is better than that of Windows, but it has nothing to do with the Intel transition. The fear that Intel-based Macs would somehow be vulnerable to Windows viruses is widespread enough to deserve mention, but it is also based completely on misunderstanding. Since the presumed ‘problem’ is actually impossible in the first place, there neither a need for anything else to protect against it, or way in which it could do so. David Arthur 15:07, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Impossible? Why? Heck, it isn't even impossible today. The PowerPC bc (branch conditional, using the "branch always" encoding) instruction can be made to act as a big fat nop (do nothing) instruction on x86. With an x86 Mac, you'd only need to look around in memory a bit to determine that the machine is indeed not running Windows. You could even share much of the exploit binary. You can hit other operating systems too while you're at it, as long as they all run similarly buggy apps. 24.110.60.225 06:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

 * In other words, you’re saying that it would be theoretically possible to write a virus that affected both systems, provided that they had the same security flaws. That doesn’t mean that WIndows-only viruses would magically start affecting the Macintosh just because it has an x86 processor. David Arthur 17:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Viruses & Virtual Machines
Chris83 is incorrect. Viruses running in Wine can affect the host system. It would require additional work for a virus/trojan/etc to propagate under Wine, but any malware that recursively trawls available directories and attempts to modify/delete listed files would be able to do so (modulo Wine's permissions). Frankie 15:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Please note that none of the viruses that Matt tried actually worked, even after he took extra efforts to help a couple of them. So it is still purely speculation.  AlistairMcMillan 17:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

 * What is your definition of "worked"? Most of them executed in some fashion, a few successfully wrote files (the important part), and one pegged the CPU. It is not speculation to say that Windows malware could arbitrarily alter any directories that are writeable under the virtualizer's permissions. Frankie 00:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Something that modifies files and directories on your own machine isn't a virus. Isn't the main point of a virus to propagate?  Did any of these Windows viruses manage to do that in Wine?  Could any of the machines even be said to be infected after the viruses were run?  I'm not saying it isn't possible that it might happen in the future.  I'm just saying it isn't true now and we don't know whether it might be true in the future.  So it is speculation.  And we have rules about that.  AlistairMcMillan 01:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.160.245 (talk) 23:52, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

ABI?
First of all, I dearly hope Apple isn't messing with 32-bit. Even Intel supports x86-64 now, so there is no excuse. :-( Anyway, there are lots of ABIs to choose from:

 * 32-bit pointers, or 64-bit pointers
 * stack only, or N parameters in registers
 * caller clean-up, or callee clean-up
 * long double: 64-bit, 80-bit unpadded, 80-bit in 96 bits, 80-bit in 128 bits with 64-bit alignment, 80-bit in 128 bits with 128-bit alignment...
 * 64-bit values with 64-bit alignment, or with 32-bit alignment
 * sizeof(long)==sizeof(void*) like nearly every system, or sizeof(long)==4 like Win64
 * if passing in registers, is it N total? Is it N int plus M float, etc.?
 * executable stack?
 * executable heap?
 * position-independant executables?
 * size of address space for user code?
 * access to thread-local data is how?
 * access to system calls is how?
 * how are variable-argument functions handled?
 * do K+R C functions work fine?
 * is there a frame pointer?
 * where in memory does executable stuff get mapped? (low 16 MB, low 4 GB, above 4 GB...)
 * what about StackGuard, ProPolice, or other stack smashing protection?

24.110.60.225 06:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

 * If you're curious about the ABI, see the Application Binary Interface section of the Universal Binary Programming Guidelines. That section says it's like the System V ABI for x86, with some changes (although it fails to list changes such as "uses Mach-O rather than ELF" :-)).

 * "Access to system calls" is "through dynamically linked procedure calls to system libraries", just as is the case in the SV ABI (except for _exit; I suspect the OS X ABI doesn't include that exception, and I'm not even sure why the heck it's in the SVR4 x86 ABI - at least when I was at Sun, the intent was that the ABI would be based entirely on procedure calls, that being why the mechanism for having an "interpreter" section for binaries, so the C startup code doesn't have to make system calls to load the run-time linker). Guy Harris 22:56, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Boot sector viruses
Even having BIOS currently in PCs doesn't allow boot sector viruses to be effective. They work in real mode, and as soon as the operating system switches the cpu to protected or long mode, the virus code has no effect at all, as its memory is reclamed by the supervisor (the protected mode OS) and it get overwritten. If you design a virus in protected mode, it will not allow a protected mode OS to load, so it cannot spread also. PC boot sector viruses are only useful while running DOS or another real mode OS. —Claunia 13:47, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

 * No, here is how: First be in real mode, and hook the BIOS calls to read from the disk. Start the normal boot loader (MacOS X, Windows 2003 Server, Linux...), letting it do it's thing. Watch as the boot loader loads in the OS. When the boot loader loads in the last bit of the OS, patch the OS image in memory. Let the OS switch to protected mode. The OS will call back to the virus, since it has been patched. As the system continues to boot, keep adding hooks. Eventually you'll have the system call table patched, etc. AlbertCahalan 08:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

 * We don't get boot sector viruses much anymore because we don't often trade and boot from removable rewritable physical media. The floppy is mostly dead, and the BIOS probably isn't set to boot from it anyway. AlbertCahalan 08:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Most protected OSes (all but Windows 9x) clear all memory, don't call to real mode code at all and are somewhat closed source (most), making boot sector viruses unfeasible.
 * They will work if made as you described AlbertCahalan, but will be limited to ONE operating system ONE revision.
 * —Claunia 08:45, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

 * It's often easier to deal with closed-source, because a closed-source kernel is constrained to have a stable driver ABI. Data structures in the kernel are much more predictable. Linux data structures vary with the compiler version and about a zillion different compile-time config options. Being multi-OS means that you package up two versions of the OS-specific code. It's usually easy to avoid the memory-clearing problem, since an OS typically asks firmware (BIOS,OpenFirmware,etc.) for the memory layout. The tricky thing is to find the right moment to patch into the OS. Considering a Linux example (which is somewhat impractical because of the volatile ABI), you'd first use real-mode code to patch in around/after the kernel's decompression code. When the decompression is done, you get called in protected mode. Relocate yourself to some place reasonably safe, being sure that it will be mapped in the page tables. Then you might scan for the idle loop (via disassembly) and patch yourself in there. When that patch gets called, scan for symbol table data and hijack a built-in kernel task. MacOS X is probably fairly similar. AlbertCahalan 10:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Extensible Firmware Interface
Now that it is confirmed that intel macs are using Extensible_Firmware_Interface, does this rule out the possibility of running Windows XP without any kind of virtual machine program? --Windsok 13:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Confirmed where? —Claunia 13:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

 * http://developer.apple.com/documentation/MacOSX/Conceptual/universal_binary/universal_binary_diffs/chapter_3_section_10.html --Windsok 13:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks. —Claunia 13:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Found some information of (future?) microsoft support of EFI http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/firmware/default.mspx, Apparently Lornghorn/Vista beta already supports EFI on x86? --Windsok 14:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Pretty much, but I don't see that it matters. (just writing your own Windows XP boot code should do the job -- I think it's HAL.SYS and NTLOADER.SYS you need to replace) Much more interesting and useful: Linux has EFI support. Normally this is only used for the Itanium systems, but using it for plain x86 should be doable. AlbertCahalan 05:38, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Teorically taking the NTLDR of Windows IA-64 should just work, as EFI bootloaders are bytecode and not machine code.
 * Also making a mini boot loader that simulates a minimal BIOS to load the IA-32 NTLDR should be enough.
 * HAL doesn't need to be modified, because as soon as NTLDR has loaded the kernel and drivers (HAL inclusive), NT doesn't use BIOS at all, but directly accesses the hardware.
 * —Claunia 15:03, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S.: Currently ELILO (Efi LInux LOader) is able to load Linux for both IA-64 and IA-32. Don't know about x86-64 (is there EFI for x86-64 currently?)
 * —Claunia 16:25, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

New article

 * See Talk:Apple-Intel architecture. —Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 16:03, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The commercials?
Ok, so what about the recent Apple/Intel commercials? Maybe some comment on the controversy about them would be appropriate? Or does it belong in another article?

Advanced Computation Group
Most of the work of the Advanced Computation Group has been directed toward high-end applications of PowerPCs. What will happen to them? I raised the question in the ACG article, but do not know if there is a publicly-known answer.

Video of the announcement
Does anyone have the video of Jobs announcing the Intel transition? McDonaldsGuy 01:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Would that be the WWDC 2005 keynote? (Found with a Google for "video wwdc 2005 site:apple.com".)  Guy Harris 08:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

 * That page seems to be down, but you can see a nice chunk here: - Stormwatch 16:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Registers in Intel Core?
This article mentions lack of registers as a drawback of x86. Is this still true in Core? Exactly how many registers do Conroe/Yonah/etc have compared to Pentiums or PPCs? Frankie

 * Intel Core Duo and Solo (Yonah) are IA-32 processors, with 8 count 'em 8 integer/pointer registers, the same as other 32-bit x86 processors; POWER/PowerPC has 32 integer/pointer registers (or 31 - I forget whether one of the registers is a hardwired zero). Intel Core 2 processors, such as Conroe and Merom, as well as the other upcoming Intel Core Microarchitecture processor, the Xeon Woodcrest, are EM64T processors, and, in 64-bit code, have integer/pointer 16 registers.  32-bit code on AMD64/EM64T processors can still only use the first 8 of them, however. Guy Harris 18:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Aha, I see, it's a hardcoded legacy thing. Well, that's just plain craptacular. Frankie

 * And why would your typical Mac user, who sits and post pictures of his tongue piercings to Flickr and plays with Photoshop, even care about the instructions his CPU runs, or how many registers it has? 68.228.240.61 07:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

A simple question:
Does this mean that macs are essentially going to become PCs? Other than an x86 compatible CPU, what qualifies a computer for being a PC? The QBasicJedi 04:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, in terms of hardware, all new Macs are now PCs with the exception of a couple of models still to be updated, and Apple has stated this will happen in 2006. The main difference at the moment is the start-up firmware. Apple adopted the latest Intel standard EFI, but Microsoft later decided not use it for 32-bit software, so some extra software (e.g. Boot Camp) is needed to install Windows on new Macs.--agr 17:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I am not sure but I think they are still using SATA interfaces and non-standard motherboards. I would not call them "PC"s.  --rogerd 18:01, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

 * What's a "standard" motherboard? One designed by, or designed and built by, one of the major motherboard manufacturers?  If so, are there no PCs whose vendors design their own motherboards?

 * And what about using SATA renders a machine not a PC? Guy Harris 18:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

 * A standard PC has a determinated memory map (that is, where firmware, devices, so on, are located). That is what makes it a PC.
 * Another machine, even with same processor and devices (such as PC98) but different memory map and/or firmware is a different computer.
 * What is exactly an Intel Macintosh, is a curious question, as it is not really a PC (lacks BIOS and PC memory map) but can behave as one (via the EFI compatibility interface that allows Windows XP to run).
 * —Claunia 22:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Claunia, given that the majority of "PCs" (aka Windows-compatible laptops or desktops) sold today are actually PC98 or later, is it your claim that they are "not really PCs"? If so, it appears the rest of the world has left you behind and moved on to newer definitions of PC.
 * From a cursory inspection, Macintels appear to meet PC2001 standards. Frankie

 * Perhaps by "PC98" she wasn't referring to the 1998 version of the Intel/Microsoft specs for PC's, but to the PC-9801, or "PC98" for short, line of x86-based machines from NEC? Guy Harris 18:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Merom in July
It appears that both Conroe and Merom have already started shipping. I was about to add this to the article right now, but for the sake of accuracy it can afford to wait two more days when Intel makes the official announcement. Frankie 12:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Not sure about this statement...
(This also represents the first time in the history of the platform that applications dating from 1984’s original 128k Mac have been unable to run on a stock Mac.)

I don't believe that this is correct... old programs from the 128k mac often have problems running due to unsupported resolutions and colors... I can think of several games that req'd 256 colors to run properly, and a lot of more recent macs simply couldn't be put in 256 color mode... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tmorrisey (talk • contribs) 04:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC). I have also to complain to this statement, it is widely known that with every OS change most of the software was unable to run properly on the new incarnation. Porting something as old as stated is simply untrue. 77.105.40.79 (talk) 18:20, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

fair use / free image
I replaced fair use image with public domain one. I thought, that FU can be used, only when (citing)

Where no free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information.

but Stormwatch changed it back with message

''Changed back to the fair use image. Try again when the free image is not a SHITTY BLURRED MESS''.

I thought that if there is equivalent to copyrighted image, I should use it - but that one was shitty blurred mess. Which one should wikipedia use? I simply don't know --Have a nice day. Running 13:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Timeline Update
The time line needs updated.

 * Yes. Everything after the Mac Pro needs to be removed, as that was the point at which the transition was complete.  That way, we don't end up uselessly listing every new Mac or update to existing Mac model (that belongs in the List of Macintosh models grouped by CPU type article).  Guy Harris 18:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Open Firmware vs. EFI
Why did Apple switch to EFI rather than using Open Firmware on x86? All the article says on the topic that EFI is better than the traditional PC BIOS, which seems pretty irrelevant. When I asked around, some people speculated licensing issues. But since Apple was already using Open Firmware, that doesn't seem like the problem. The most likely explanation seems to be simply that Intel was pushing it, and Apple is sleeping with Intel... Aij (talk) 00:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Bias
There are several anti-windows barbs in this article. It could use a good cleansing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.159.15 (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite needed
I imagine most of this was written in 2005-6 in response to contemporary press reports. It really should be rewritten from the ground-up to provide a more historical perspective. I removed the "Viruses" section because it was pretty much entirely an out-dated editorial. 71.134.252.36 (talk) 06:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Agreed. Wish I had more time. I did clean up the Reasons section a bit, due to the slight holy-war tilt in the edits there over AMD (trimmed both the uncited "industry standard" claim and the uncited "well-known fact that AMD chips are power-hungry" claim, but that para still needs cites). HelpnWP (talk) 02:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

so why exactly did they switch?
do we have to wait 20 years for the official history to be released?

No, only until Motorola announces the G6 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pantergraph (talk • contribs) 16:06, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Wrong statement
Apple is the only computer company to have successfully completed such a transition, as every other manufacturer who has tried - Commodore, Atari, Acorn Computers, Digital Equipment Corporation, SGI, Kaypro - have all failed.[1]

I believe this is wrong, for example DEC had a transition from various PDP models to VAX to being part of Compaq. SGI also changed the architecture of its workstations multiple times (RISC -> Itanium -> Xeon ).

 * Sure that's wrong but you have to understand that for the average iPhone-junkie, computer history starts with Steve Jobs and the knowledge horizon ends at the outlines of the iPad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.56.119 (talk) 06:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

"DEC had a transition from various PDP models to VAX to being part of Compaq." You left out Alpha. That's failing, not succeeding. And likewise with SGI, they lost everything after they left MIPS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pantergraph (talk • contribs) 15:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia article, not an article for misconceptions of "the average iPhone-junkie". DEC and SGI did not fail because of CPU transitions, the PDP->VAX transition was inarguably successful; the VAX->Alpha was fine, DEC ran into problems for other reasons, not due to the VAX->Alpha transition. SGI was already having problems when they went MIPS->Intel, and this transition did help them. After being purchased by Rackable Systems (and named back to SGI), they are now actually profitable, and still selling some of the very systems that were transitioned from MIPS to Intel. The IBM AS/400 transitioned from a 48-bit custom CISC CPU to the 64-bit PowerPC with no customer impact (they'd back up programs from the old system, restore them to the new system and go.) Both Alpha->Itanium and PA-RISC->Itanium were IMHO commercial mistakes, but in technical terms were also nice and seemless. Please, just take this one sentence out, it's false, and smacks of the tendency for Apple fans to exaggerate Apple's achievements. 216.137.65.174 (talk) 22:34, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I edited the statement; none of the above are personal computer companies. The statement is true and was commented on widely at the time of the 68k->PPC transition. I don't own an iPhone.Compilation finished successfully (talk) 20:29, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Apple–Intel transition → Apple PowerPC–Intel transition Apple's transition to Intel processors – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC) From a punctuation perspective, Apple–Intel does not correctly modify transition – it suggests a transition from Apple to Intel. (Apple–Intel architecture works because the noun is different.) See WP:ENDASH. Alternative Apple Intel Transition feels unnatural. --Pnm (talk) 01:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment but this deals with the Macintosh line, not other Apple hardware products, shouldn't it be Macintosh PowerPC–Intel transition ? 65.94.77.11 (talk) 05:51, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Macintosh is more precise, but Apple is more consistent with Apple–Intel architecture. I'm fine with either. --Pnm (talk)
 * Comment The current title is clearly misleading, as it implies Apple transitioned into Intel. The proposed title is a major improvement, but to be consistent, it ought to be changed to "Apple's transition from PowerPC to Intel Core processors" or somesuch. --  Ohconfucius  ¡digame! 02:07, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's quite a bit longer. It seems overly long to me. --Pnm (talk) 16:12, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Apple's transition to Intel architecture ? —Tamfang (talk) 03:44, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not bad. It's lots more natural than the options named above. I'd prefer a slight adjustment Apple's transition to Intel processors, since really it's the Intel and Apple architecture Intel and Apple together describe the architecture. --Pnm (talk) 04:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support any move from this nonsensical title, including back to Apple Intel transition where it was before some numbskull abused en dash here. Dicklyon (talk) 00:45, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

AMD's lack of low power CPUs?
I recall AMD having a CPU in that produced less heat at full speed than the Intel CPU Apple chose did at idle. That CPU was in production when the first Intel Mac developer systems were released, soAppl could have gone with AMD. Bizzybody (talk) 18:23, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Last?
Article says:

"June 11, 2012: Apple releases iTunes 10.6.3, their last application with support for PowerPC processors"

According to Safari version history, Safari through version 5.1.10 (released September 12, 2013) ran on OS X 10.6. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.109.5.23 (talk) 17:13, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070614170257/http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/08/07/liveupdate/ to http://macworld.com/news/2006/08/07/liveupdate/

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2019: May need a new article: Apple's transition to ARM processors
It's popping up in the news. Happening or soon-to-happen. I couldn't find a place to mention. I'm not close enough to it to create the article. - A876 (talk) 05:49, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It is most definitely not currently happening; Apple have not announced any ARM-based Macs. (It's definitely not happening in 2019, given that 2019 has already ended!)
 * It may be soon-to-happen, or it may just be a bunch of rumor sites speculating on something that doesn't happen soon.
 * So, as per WP:CRYSTAL, we don't need such an article. Wait for something to happen, if it happens. Guy Harris (talk) 07:30, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Oops. There were many articles in 2019, but I did not notice that every one includes words like "can", "could", "may", "might", "probably", "subtle sign", "rumors", .... Nothing is shipping, announced, or imminent. "The discussion around the topic of ARM-based Macs never seems to die." Lately, "Recent chips powering the iPad and iPhone... in some cases outperforming Macs...". If it actually happens, it will be news. Even the strongest hint is weak, only citing "people": "Apple Inc. is planning to use its own chips in Mac computers beginning as early as 2020, ..." "The initiative is still in the early developmental stages..." (Bloomberg). - A876 (talk) 20:41, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

I've created the article you suggested: Apple's transition to ARM processors. It's only a stub for the moment, but I expect that will change quickly. ~ I should note that although I believe the topic has become sufficiently verifiable and notable to meet Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, a fellow editor disagrees, and has nominated the article for deletion. That deletion request is open and pending at this time. — Jaydiem (talk) 01:21, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Update: The RfD was closed as Keep, and the new article has already accumulated substantial additional content. Yaay, Wikipedians! — Jaydiem (talk) 21:26, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 9 December 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn. because the current title seems better PhotographyEdits (talk) 10:56, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Mac transition to Intel processors → Apple transition to Intel processors – It also included Xserve, which is not part of the Mac series. PhotographyEdits (talk) 18:03, 9 December 2022 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose. "Mac transition to Intel processors" seems more recognizable, natural, and allows us to be consistent with Mac transition to Apple silicon (WP:CRITERIA). The Xserve was also a very minor product line, and I'll note that Apple's financial statements counted it as a Mac line item despite also having a category for "other hardware", and that "Apple transition to Intel processors" may fail WP:PRECISION since iPods didn't transition to Intel. DFlhb (talk) 09:34, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @DFlhb Those are good arguments, I'm convinced that the current title is better. I'll close this move request. PhotographyEdits (talk) 10:50, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mac transition to Intel processors


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Category:Homosexual philosophers

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was it's a category, already brought to CfD. — Xezbeth 15:09, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

Category:Homosexual philosophers
This is offensive. What encyclopedic purpose does it have to pigeonhole philosophers by their sexual orientation? Certainly, a list of theorists whose work concerns sexuality is valid, but this is lazy and prurient XmarkX 06:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I've moved the discussion to its proper location - Categories for deletion --FCYTravis 07:09, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Keep, obviously. Nothing offensive here. :ThaddeusFrye 07:36, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - But I don't think this should be listed here. --Irishpunktom\talk 10:59, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep - Weak because this is ambigious, as it could refer to philosophers who are homosexual, or philosophers whose work deals with homosexuality. Saswann 13:14, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


text:
Category:Particle experiments

In physics, particle experiments are the particle detector installations made at particle accelerator laboratories.

title: Category:Particle experiments


text:
Predator (disambiguation)

A predator is an animal that kills other animals to eat.

Predator or The Predator may also refer to:

Films and spin-offs

 * Predator (franchise)
 * Predator (film), 1987 film that established the franchise
 * Predator 2, 1990 film
 * Predators (film), 2010 film
 * The Predator (film), 2018 film
 * Prey (film), 2022 film
 * Predator (fictional species), the extraterrestrial species featured in the film
 * List of Predator comics
 * Predator (novel series)
 * Predator (video game), 1987
 * Predators (video game), 2010

Literature

 * Predator, 1987 novelization of the film by Paul Monette
 * Predator, 1991 novel by Jack Olsen
 * Predator!, 1991 novel by Bruce Brooks
 * Predator, 1993 novel by William F. Wu in the Isaac Asimov's Robots in Time series
 * Predator (Cornwell novel), 2005 novel by Patricia Cornwell
 * Predator, 2010 novel by Terri Blackstock
 * Predator, 2013 novel by Faye Kellerman
 * Predator (Smith novel), 2016 novel by Wilbur Smith
 * Predator, 2016 novel by Gail Z. Martin
 * Predators, 1993 novel by Ed Gorman and Martin H. Greenberg
 * Predators, 2003 novel by Anna Salter
 * Predators, 2018 novel by Michaelbrent Collings
 * The Predator, 1968 novel in the Jonas Wilde: Eliminator Saga series by Christopher Nicole writing under the name Andrew York
 * The Predator, 1976 novel by Denis Pitts
 * The Predator, 1980 novel by Russell Braddon
 * The Predator (novel), 1996 novel by K. A. Applegate; the fifth book in the Animorphs series
 * The Predator, 2001 novel by Michael Ridpath
 * The Predator, 2018 novel by Christopher Golden and Mark Morris; the novelization of the film
 * The Predators, 1998 novel by Harold Robbins
 * Predators, 2017 graphic novel by Jason Latour and Robbi Rodriguez in the Spider-Gwen series

Music

 * Predator (album), by Accept
 * The Predator (Ice Cube album), and its title track
 * The Predator (EP), by Ice Nine Kills
 * The Predators (Japanese band)
 * The Predators (Australian band)

Television

 * Predator, a television ident for BBC Two, first aired in 2000; see BBC Two '1991–2001' idents
 * "The Predators" (Have Gun – Will Travel), a 1962 episode

Military

 * Predator SRAW, a missile system
 * MQ-1 Predator, an unmanned aerial vehicle (drone) in use since 1995
 * RQ-9 Predator B, an unmanned aerial vehicle (drone) in use since 2001 and now known as the MQ-9 Reaper
 * Predator C, an unmanned aerial vehicle (drone) now known as the General Atomics Avenger

People

 * Patrick Côté (fighter) (born 1980), Canadian mixed martial artist, nicknamed "The Predator"
 * Don Frye (born 1965), American mixed martial artist, nicknamed "The Predator"
 * Michael Gomez (born 1977), professional boxer, nicknamed "The Predator"
 * Horace Hogan (born 1965), American professional wrestler with the ring name "The Predator"
 * Sylvester Terkay (born 1970), American professional wrestler with the ring name "The Predator"
 * Chase Young (born 1999), American football player, nicknamed "The Predator"
 * Francis Ngannou (born 1986), French-Cameroonian mixed martial artist and current UFC Heavyweight Champion, nicknamed "The Predator."

Sports

 * Adidas Predator, a range of football boots
 * Nashville Predators, a United States hockey team
 * Orlando Predators, a United States arena football team
 * Laval Predators, a Canadian hockey team in the Ligue Nord-Américaine de Hockey

Other uses

 * Predator (truck), a monster truck and the team to which it belongs
 * Predator (roller coaster)
 * Sexual predator
 * Predator, an agricultural-aircraft design by Burt Rutan
 * Acer Predator, a gaming computer brand
 * Predator, brand of pool (cue sports) cues
 * Predator spyware, developed by Cytrox

title: Predator (disambiguation)


text: Template:Severn from source to Llandrinio