text:
Talk:Goatman (urban legend)

NPOV
Article used to end with, "He is still at large." This is, to me, definitely not a neutral pov. If something is not real, how could it be, "at large"? I changed the text to read, "No substantial physical evidence of the Goatman's existence has been found."

 * Total lack of NPOV in this "NPOV" comment.
 * Obviously they don't believe what most people know to be true.
 * The goatman still walks the earth. Yes, he is still "at large".
 *  Chesapeake77 >>> ♥ Truth  19:47, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Removal of some uncited text
I removed the following from the article:

There have been stories of a government cover-up.

''Another sighting occurred in Mountain Home, Arkansas near the Sonic in the back alley. He had a hatchet and a person's leg. A waitress saw him and tried to talk to him. He ran off through the bushes never to be seen again.''

This info was added by anons who have a history of vandalising this article and several others. I would say that at worst it is made up and at best a campfire horror story. I know this whole article is basically an urban (or rural) legend, but at least most of it is sourced. I almost took out the part about the scientist with the goat human hybrid, but I figured at least it was in the right county, and was likely to be part of the local legend. --Joelmills 22:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

 * In the case of urban legends, it's often best to add things as being part of the legend and to source the legend itself rather than the individual parts of it. This way, you're saying that the legend is real, and not the events in it.

 * There are of course limits to this, particularl in cases like this were there are multiple legends with embelishments. In tese cases, the embelishments should be weeded out until the core elements of the legend are left.

 * perfectblue 07:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I lived in the Green Bay area of Wisconsin for most of my life and have heard, from two sources, an urban legend of a goatman located on or near the Oneida Reservation located West of Green Bay. One of the sources (a member of the Oneida Tribe) gave a description that would make it seem to be some sort of boogeyman-type story told by parents to frighten unruly children. I don't know if this qualifies as a proper citation, but I hope it helps. TTBoyArDee (talk) 22:00, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

 * The Maryland goatman had "kids" and some of them moved to Wisconsin.
 *  Chesapeake77 >>> ♥ Truth  19:58, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Lake Worth
The Lake Worth bigfoot differs too much from the goatman (it has huma feet and scales, the goatman has goats feet and does not have scales. Besides, it already has its own page Lake Worth monster. All Lake Worth monster details should go there instead.

perfectblue 17:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

the lake worth monster is mentioned in this article and is called "goatman" locally because of horns etc... greer island aka goatman island pretty much qualifies it as applicable. im not local to maryland so i dont pretend to know about the local legends other than what i read; i am local to lake worth and familiar with the legend having lived on the lake and been to the island several times since i was a kid. i think it stays. if you want to remove it, rename this article "maryland goatman" so as to be exclusive to that legend.

 * Please sign your comments.

 * The Lake Worth bigfoot has its own page, regardless of what this article is named, all Lake Worth monster/goatman text belongs there, otherwise what would be the point of having a seperate page?

 * The Texas monster might be called a goatman on occasion, but it has scales and homonid feet (Hence the 'Bigfoot' tag), while the Maryland creature has goat's feet and does not have scales.

 * It wouldn't be a good idea to rename this article as it is a re-direct from a disambiguation page, so instead I am altering the disambiguation catagory.

perfectblue 07:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

OK
So if you were to take a goatman, who is part goat, part man, and put him in a cage with an el chupa, what would happen?

 * I'm not certain, but the FCC would probably stop you from showing it during prime time

 * perfectblue 12:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Swamp Thing influence?
In one version, the Goatman is a mutated scientist per Daniel Cohen's Monsters, Giants, Little Men from Mars. Was this verison around before the Swamp Thing debuted in 1971?

Enda80Enda80

 * I doubt that it was influenced specifically by Swamp Thing, but there is a real Hollywood ring to the mutated scientist version, isn't there. That kind of story has been a part of US popular culture for decades in comics and B-movies.

 * perfectblue 08:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The Goatman is normally associated with northern PG County, Maryland.
 * However there is a very different, southern PG County Goatman story.
 * I'll share it at some point.
 *  Chesapeake77 >>> ♥ Truth  21:13, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

ridiculous infobox excised
The "paranormalcreatures" infobox, like the similar piece of scrawl affixed to the poltergeist article, has been excised. There is simply no need for such an infobox, I'm afraid. Looks like people have spent a lot more time working on HAVING such an infobox than actually USING the infobox. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.83.194 (talk) 20:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Going to need major cleanup
The whole thrust of this article seems to be to present this as some supposed cryptozoological creature, which means it's framed from the view that it's really real and not, as the prevailing academic belief of any expert who has even heard of it would agree, a bit of urban legend/folklore.

What we need are sources that fit WP:RS criteria, especially on the folklore end instead of the promotion of it as a real creature. Refs to sources expressing an opinion must explicitly be worded to say that it's that sources opinion and not to suggest that it's factual. Also, there's a bunch of uncited claims in here that are original research, such as supposed similarities to fiction and other urban legends, and so forth and so on. DreamGuy (talk) 15:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Lansdale novel
Is the paragraph on the Lansdale novel really relevant to the "Goat Man (Maryland)" article since it discusses a "Goat Man" of East Texas? Ketone16 (talk) 14:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I moved this section of the article to the Lake Worth monster (Texas goatman) article. Ketone16 (talk) 22:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The Goat Man was attributed to Lottsford Road of off Landover Rd RT 202 in PG County, that part of the article/page should be corrected. Any old PG County boy would know that, we have an entire facebook page devoted to Lottsford Rd - Dan Edwards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.126.30 (talk) 06:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Goatman (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:34, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

How do we know if the Goatman has been editing this article?
What would prevent him from doing so? Nothing.

 Chesapeake77 >>> ♥ Truth  19:44, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Literacy and Inclusion
— Assignment last updated by Thryna (talk) 15:01, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Goat man
My friend went to Maryland today and came home scared all because of this she was reading about the Goat man and she was so scared 2600:4041:5B1A:B900:5C19:830B:76D7:B289 (talk) 02:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

 * Because she was watching a video so she looked it up 2600:4041:5B1A:B900:5C19:830B:76D7:B289 (talk) 02:57, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Goatman (urban legend)


text:
User talk:Penguin020

Welcome
Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! --Spinboy 02:40, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
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 * Editing tutorial
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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Penguin020


text:
User talk:Dc1974

Welcome
Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! --Spinboy 02:40, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
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Image copyright problem with Image:Cdn Leopard C2 Canada War Museum.jpg
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title: User talk:Dc1974


text:
John Kronus

George B. Caiazzo (January 13, 1969 – July 18, 2007) was an American professional wrestler, better known by his ring name, John Kronus, and later simply Kronus. Caiazzo worked for Extreme Championship Wrestling, the United States Wrestling Association and Xtreme Pro Wrestling. He was perhaps best known as one-half of the tag team The Eliminators with Perry Saturn.

Early life
Caiazzo's father, George Caiazzo Sr., played football with the New York Giants before suffering an injury.

Early career
In the late 1980s, Caiazzo met professional wrestler Perry Saturn when he began working as a bouncer in a Boston nightclub managed by Saturn. Caiazzo expressed an interest in becoming a wrestler to Saturn, who responded by directing Caiazzo to a professional wrestling school operated by Killer Kowalski. Caiazzo debuted in 1989, briefly wrestling as "The Eliminator". In the early 1990s, Saturn offered to form a tag team with Caiazzo. The Greek equivalent of the Roman deity Saturn was Cronus, so Saturn chose the ring name "John Kronus" for Caiazzo. As Saturn and Kronus were their civilizations' respective harvest deities, Saturn proposed that the tag team be known as "The Harvesters of Sorrow". After promoter Jerry Lawler advised Saturn that the significance of the name would not be evident to many fans, Saturn named the team "The Eliminators".

The Eliminators wrestled their first match together at a United States Wrestling Association house show in 1993. They were hired at a starting salary of $40 a week (they later negotiated a 100% pay raise), and shared an apartment with four other wrestlers. On May 2, 1994, The Eliminators defeated Brian Christopher and Eddie Gilbert for the USWA Tag Team Championship. They held the USWA World Tag Team Championship until June 13, 1994, when they were defeated by PG-13.

WAR (1994–1995)
In 1994 and 1995, The Eliminators wrestled in Japan for the WAR promotion.

The Eliminators (1995–1997)
The Eliminators debuted in the Philadelphia, Pennsylvania-based Extreme Championship Wrestling promotion at Gangstas Paradise in September 1995. They were initially brought in to job to the Steiner Brothers but after it became apparent that Steiners were leaving ECW,the Eliminators were booked to win their debut match, a six-man tag team match, which pitted Eliminators with Jason against Taz and the Steiner Brothers. ECW promoter Paul Heyman quickly abandoned plans to give them a sadism and masochism character and instead booked them as an unstoppable force in the ECW tag team division. They were managed by Jason. The Eliminators won the ECW Tag Team Championship on three occasions between 1996 and 1997, feuding with teams such as the Dudley Boyz, the Gangstas, the Pitbulls, Sabu and Rob Van Dam and the Steiner Brothers. On May 31, 1997, Saturn tore his anterior cruciate ligament during a match. After intense reconstructive surgery, he was given a recovery time of up to a year. Kronus briefly defended the ECW Tag Team Championship single-handedly before losing to the Dudley Boyz. In late 1997, Saturn left ECW for World Championship Wrestling.

The Gangstanators (1997–1999)
Kronus competed in the singles division, challenging ECW World Television Champion Taz at Orgy of Violence in June 1997, before forming a new tag team, "the Gangstanators", with New Jack. The Gangstanators won the ECW Tag Team Championship in September 1997 at As Good as It Gets.

Kronus left ECW in early 1999.

Independent circuit (1999–2002)
He joined the California-based Xtreme Pro Wrestling promotion. In 2000, Kronus aligned himself with the "Black Army" faction. He remained with XPW until leaving in 2001. During this period, Kronus appeared in the 2000 softcore bondage film Violence on Violence. Kronus also helped develop and promote local Philadelphia, Pennsylvania company Dangerously Intense Wrestling. During his time as champion he feuded with G.O.D.D., Method and The Sickness. Kronus held both the DIW World Heavyweight Title and Inner City Title.

Retirement
In 2002, Kronus retired from professional wrestling, relocating to the Lakes Region in Sanbornton, New Hampshire. He temporarily came out of retirement in 2005, making two appearances with the ECW reunion promotion Hardcore Homecoming.

Death
Caiazzo was found dead in his fiancée Brandy Laundry's home in Laconia, New Hampshire on July 18, 2007, several days after undergoing knee surgery. He was 38 years old. Caiazzo died in his sleep. According to an autopsy, his death was attributed to heart failure resulting from an enlarged heart. He was survived by his nine-year-old son, Gage Christian Caiazzo. His family stated that Kronus had a history of heart problems and that he knew he could die at any time. Former tag team partner New Jack was the only ECW alumnus to attend his funeral.

Championships and accomplishments

 * Dangerously Intense Wrestling
 * DIW Heavyweight Champion (1 time)
 * DIW Inner City Champion (1 time)
 * Extreme Championship Wrestling
 * ECW World Tag Team Championship (4 times) – with Perry Saturn (3 times) and New Jack (1 time)
 * Mayhem Independent Wrestling
 * MIW Hardcore Championship (1 time, last)
 * Pro Wrestling Illustrated
 * PWI ranked him No. 73 of the top 500 wrestlers of the year in the PWI 500 in 1997
 * PWI ranked him No. 382 of the 500 best singles wrestlers of the PWI Years in 2003
 * PWI ranked him No. 89 of the 100 best tag teams of the PWI Years in 2003 with Perry Saturn
 * United States Wrestling Association
 * USWA World Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Perry Saturn

title: John Kronus


text:
Category:Energy conversion

Energy conversion is the process of transforming energy from one form into another.

title: Category:Energy conversion


text:
Talk:Louis Eilshemius

Untitled
This page seriously needs some editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.51.115.4 (talk • contribs) 21:41, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Louis Eilshemius


text: User:Jinniya

title: User:Jinniya


text: User talk:69.228.222.2

title: User talk:69.228.222.2


text:
Talk:Bleeding Kansas

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 January 2019 and 10 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Marshan3q.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:56, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Expansion
I really think someone needs to expand on this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.0.142.73 (talk) 02:44, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. drini ☎ 02:50, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I really think that phrase stating that the Bleeding Kansas incidents were directly correlated to the Civil War should be clarified. I'm not quite sure what that means, so we should have some evidence that backs it up, or maybe some similar qualities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.115.247.173 (talk) 23:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Some of the leaders of the movement are unclear to me. A sentence or two about the significant figures, their role in the war, etc. would be appreciated for those that don't have their own article. William Quantrill doesn't need expansion, he has his own page. But when Antonio Benincasa and George Clarke are supposed to be influential figures, I'd like to know in what capacity they were involved. Even if it is just a few words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.113.0.170 (talk) 17:47, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Suspected Vandalism:
I have removed the sentence that read "The first shot of the small war was fired by the colonel Rob McHell when he shot his neighbor in the face when he learned he would not be voting for slavery." I have been unable to find any mention of this elsewhere that does not return to this wikipedia page and it seems highly suspect for several reasons; for example, the name "McHell." DeciusAemilius

Rob Mitchell was a real Colonel in this time period, but I don't know if he ever shot his neighbor in the face. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.15.193.5 (talk) 00:53, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Heading
It is easier to organize an article if you use headers like the one above.

Copyright Violation?
Much of this article is copied verbatim from the PBS article. Those paragraphs should be rewritten or deleted. MarcusGraly 20:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism?
It seems that someone fiddled around with the introduction to the article, changing the pictures... hm.

This pissed me off.
I couldn't understand about half of what the writer was trying to get across. Stop trying to act like a genius and put it in terms we can all understand.

 * I agree. The word that cuaght me was "Presaged". I had a good idea what it meant from context, but it was still really unnecessary to use, a word like "foretold" (that WAS a MS word synonym)would have worked perfectly fine Name here 16:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I changed it to 'directly correlated to', but I still don't get how the two are linked. Maybe the writer should have put in some examples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.115.247.173 (talk) 23:25, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Deaths in Bleeding Kansas
Since this was the subject of a recent change, I thought I would point out that Craig Miner's recent and fairly-definitive Kansas: The History of the Sunflower State, 1854-2000 states, "Between 1854 and 1861, fifty-six people died in the confrontations in Kansas." [p. 57] Kgwo1972 12:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I reverted the change to 200 deaths back to 55 on general principals, as it did not cite a source. As you seem to be familiar with Miner's book, could you place an appropriate link to it in the article? -- Donald Albury 01:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I put it in the "References" section months ago. If you want citations to the book for specific sentences – such as the one about fatalities – I could do that, but I'm not sure its necessary.  Let me know.  Kgwo1972 02:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

 * For short articles, it doesn't matter much. As articles get longer/gain references it becomes important to tie citations to specific sections. Citing page numbers in books helps readers find the specific information in the source. -- Donald Albury 22:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

First Deaths of the Civil War
5 guys getting hacked to death with swords is considered the first shots of a war?

 * Yeah, I took that sentence out. Unless someone has a source for it...and even then, *who* considered it the opening shots of the war? It is certainly not the mainstream view. DMorpheus (talk) 14:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Yet, Bloody Kansas was the true beginning of the Civil War and the first deaths in the struggle for Kansas eventually entering as a free-state should be historically recognized as the first deaths of the war. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 13:16, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I Couldn't Find This
I couldn't find the answer to this question. What was it that Kansas became after the battle was over? Slave or non-slave? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.86.213.71 (talk) 23:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Free. -- Orange Mike  |  Talk  15:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC) (B.A., Hist., UW-Milwaukee)

Freedom's Frontier
Edited out the comment concerning Fort Scott being a part of the "Freedom's Frontier National Heritage Area". Although the enabling legislation for the National Heritage Area has passed, the Management Plan stated in 109th Congress, 1st Session, H.R. 413 Sec 4(e) has not been submitted or approved to the Secretary of the Interior for review as per H.R. 413 Sec 4(e)(5). As a result, the inclusion of sites in the National Heritage Area Management Plan is conjecture at this point.

Cass & Popular Sovereignty
Per the Fact-tag request, I have removed the sentence claiming that Lewis Cass "first developed" the doctrine of Popular Sovereignty and replaced it with cited material naming him as "Father of Popular Sovereignty". Said book is available (in part) through Google Books. I believe I have altered the wording sufficiently to place it in context and avoid claims of plagiarism so long as the citation remains in place. Someone may care to offer a better synonym for "sobriquet" though. --Geoff Capp (talk) 22:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Too Militaristic
This article treats the events like they're military engagements. I would fix it myself, but i'm new to wiki editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.176.83.52 (talk) 01:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

US Senator Stephen Douglas - Dem. Ill.
I added "- Dem. Ill" after the introductin of US Senator Stephen Douglas. He was a most important Democrat at the time and would, of course, be the party's nomination for President in 1860. The fact that he was from Illinois is also very important. I haven't referenced this because of the Wikipedia article on him. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 13:10, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Kansas was 34th State admitted to the Union
"On January 29, 1861, Kansas was admitted to the Union as the 34th State and as a free state. Three months later, Southern Rebels fired at a US Flag with 34 stars at the Battle of Fort Sumter which began the Civil War." Kansas being the 34th state is important as is the symbolic representation of it as a star on the US Flag. I have not referenced this because it so undisputed. - Brad Watson, Miami 66.229.56.118 (talk) 13:36, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

 * There are no "undisputed" facts. Please state a reference where "Southern Rebels fired at a US Flag with 34 stars" CanadianLinuxUser (talk) 15:19, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

'Bleeding Kansas' by Sara Paretsky
Hi, I am from Gemany and I read Paretsky's book. It has nothing to do with history. It is about “what life is like growing up on a Kansas farm. It's a coming-of-age story packed with a punch of moral debate.” Please check with Book Review 'Bleeding Kansas'. Good luck. --178.11.235.191 (talk) 07:43, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Map with the article.
The map accompanying the article shows Utah as a free territory. This is incorrect, slavery existed in Utah from the Mormon settlement of 1846 till the abolition of slavery in the territories in 1862. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saintonge235 (talk • contribs) 06:44, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Separate article on caning - talk in Charles Sumner
I'd like to put the information regarding Brooks's beating of Sumner into a separate article, considering how important and symbolic an event it was, and that the vast majority of the information is repeated in separate articles: Charles Sumner, Preston Brooks, and Bleeding Kansas.

I have begun this "Main Article" by copypasting to Caning of Charles Sumner, and this note has been copied to the relevant Talk pages for discussion here (Talk:Charles Sumner). Let me know what you think, and let's try to pin down title, article scope, and summary scope in the next 2 weeks. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:37, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Color key to map
Someone needs to add the bright yellow box in the legend for the "Border Union states, permitting slavery". I'm not sure how to do it. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.195.247.116 (talk) 19:26, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Map and Oregon
Oregon officially banned slavery (and the residency of all people of African origin) upon statehood in 1859. Slavery can assumed to be tolerated only begrudgingly, given the ban of the 1859 constitution of any African-origin residents, any moral issues aside. Wistungsten (talk) 02:36, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Extensive rewrite coming
I am planning an extensive rewrite of this article. I wanted to place a notice here so that once the changes were made, regular editors of this page would realize what I was doing. I would eventually like to work this article up to Featured Article status. Lithistman (talk) 19:32, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * good luck with that. I strongly encourage you to make changes on paragraph at a time, otherwise it's a mess of reverts and arguments. Rjensen (talk) 19:47, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I will be rewriting in my own userspace, and having it combined all at once. Lithistman (talk) 03:02, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * In that case it will all get reverted if anyone spots an issue. It will be MUCH easier step by step. Rjensen (talk) 06:40, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it won't. You don't revert an entire rewrite because of a typo or a small error. You fix the typo or the small error. Reverting the whole rewrite would be nonsensical, unproductive, and (in my opinion, at least) should be a blockable offense. Lithistman (talk) 02:09, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Depends on the quality, tone, and depth of the rewrite. If it manages to include the existing salient points and cites found in the original article then it should be okay.  But if it wipes out large sections and dumps valid existing cites with no easy way to reinsert them, then reverts are likely.  Assuming everyone is going to be satisfied with the quality and NPOV of one's work on a large scale is a dangerous assumption.  I believe you would be better served in tackling a section at a time.  That makes it easier for editors to compare and to focus on specific problem sections/paragraphs rather than making a full revert preferable.  While starting with a clean slate might be easier for the individual editor (speaking from experience/frustration fixing some really poorly structured and/or highly biased articles), it also is non-collaborative in nature. Red Harvest (talk) 04:36, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * My rewrite will be structured quite similarly to the current article. I will eliminate no valid citations, and have no problem with editors coming in and making changes after the rewrite is posted. I don't think anyone will be particularly disturbed by the changes, as they will expand the article's depth, as well as cleaning up some failry clunky prose. And unless a rewrite simply completely butchers an article style-wise or causes serious NPOV issues, a full revert is never a good idea, and is very "non-collaborative"--much moreso than simply doing a rewrite in one's userspace and moving it wholesale into the article space. Lithistman (talk) 17:46, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * May I suggest, if you are planning a large-scale structural change, that you post your outline here and how it differs, like "1. Intro, 2. Background (move more recent material to next section), 3. Kansas-Nebraska Act," etc. That way we have a reference to how you're doing the rewrite, so that when we see intermediate edits that may delete paragraphs, we know where they will eventually fit in.
 * With that, I stress that your actual rewrites should be posted one section at a time. It just makes it easier to look over revisions side-by-side and note down if there's some gap that you may have missed. SamuelRiv (talk) 15:48, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Map Is Wrong
This map is from 1865 according to the other articles that reference it. As previously noted, color coding is wrong for Utah, and Nevada was not a state during the referenced dates. I'm not sure how to fix this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.8.109.170 (talk) 17:37, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes. Furthermore, West Virginia is shown as a Border Union state permitting slavery, but for the time period this map supposedly depicts, West Virginia was still part of Virginia. 98.221.141.21 (talk) 01:28, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I've removed the map, per the above concerns and also due to this map using modern state borders instead of the borders in use at the time of the conflict. This is not a good map. 67.1.137.31 (talk) 13:33, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

"The committee found the elections improperly elected by non-residents"
I know that this talk page is quite silent, but can anyone with knowledge interpret this? "conducted" maybe?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoony (talk • contribs) 09:20, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a couple months old, but I changed it to: "The committee found that non-Kansas residents had illegally voted in the election, resulting in the pro-slavery government."-- Gen. Quon   (Talk)  16:31, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bleeding Kansas


text: User talk:130.54.130.227

title: User talk:130.54.130.227


text:
Talk:Consumer eugenics

VfD
On May 19, 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Votes for deletion/Consumer eugenics for a record of the discussion. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 02:46, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Merge
This topic gets a few unique google hits (~300), but it covers so little ground that it needs to be merged into Eugenics. Magdela 15:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Consumer eugenics


text:
Art Fleming

Arthur Fleming Fazzin (May 1, 1924 – April 25, 1995) was an American actor and television host. He hosted the first version of the television game show Jeopardy!, which aired on NBC from 1964 until 1975 and again from 1978 to 1979.

Early life
Fleming was born in New York City. His parents, William and Marie Fazzin, had immigrated to the United States from Austria. They were a popular dance team in Europe and brought their show to America. Their son Art was a varsity letterman football player at James Monroe High School in New York City, standing 6 ft, weighing 220 lb. He later attended Colgate and Cornell Universities, starring on the football team, as well as the water polo teams at both colleges. Fleming was a World War II veteran who served in the U.S. Navy for three and a half years as the pilot of a patrol bomber in the Atlantic.

Career
After leaving the navy, Fleming became an announcer at a radio station in Rocky Mount, North Carolina. Here, he changed his name to "Art Fleming". His radio career later took him to Akron, Ohio, and back home to New York. He was the first announcer to deliver the slogan "Winston tastes good, like a cigarette should" for Winston cigarettes.

Fleming's acting career began at age four, when he appeared in a Broadway musical. His first television role was as a stunt double for Ralph Bellamy in the detective series Man Against Crime. In 1959 he starred as detective Ken Franklin in the ABC TV series International Detective, credited as Arthur Fleming. He also played attorney Jeremy Pitt in The Californians, an NBC Western set in San Francisco during the gold rush of the 1850s.

Fleming also appeared in many television commercials, in addition to anchoring the eleven o’clock news on WNBC. He was first spotted by Merv Griffin on a commercial for Trans World Airlines. Griffin thought Fleming was "authoritative, yet warm and interesting", and Fleming was invited to audition to be the host of Griffin's new game show Jeopardy!. Fleming won the job, and hosted the show during its original run of March 30, 1964, to January 3, 1975, and again from October 2, 1978, to March 2, 1979. Rather than describe him as the "host" of the program, announcer Don Pardo introduced him by saying, "and here's the star of Jeopardy!, Art Fleming" As "the world's greatest quiz show's" first host, Fleming earned two Emmy Award nominations. While he was host of Jeopardy!, Fleming never missed a taping.

Because he hosted a quiz show, and in part because he was an avid reader with multiple college degrees, Fleming earned a reputation as being a storehouse of trivia. While appearing as a guest star on Hollywood Squares (another NBC game show in the 1960s and 1970s), Fleming was once selected as the "secret square". His question was, "In 1938, who won the Wimbledon women's tennis championship?" Fleming picked Helen Wills Moody, one of the three choices read to him. The female contestant (who had selected Fleming) turned to Hollywood Squares MC Peter Marshall, saying, "Art Fleming would never lie! I agree!" He was right, and the contestant won $11,000. Fleming later said he did not know a thing about tennis and had guessed the answer. He hoped the contestant would disagree, thinking he was wrong.

Throughout his career, Fleming starred in about 5,000 episodes of television programs and 48 motion pictures. After Jeopardy!'s first cancellation in 1975, Fleming returned to acting. In 1977 he played the role of W. Averell Harriman in the movie MacArthur starring Gregory Peck, and appeared in the comedy film American Raspberry, and also appeared in episodes of Starsky and Hutch, Kingston: Confidential, and the 1976 TV miniseries The Moneychangers.

Fleming also hosted a radio version of College Bowl for CBS Radio from 1979 to 1982. He hosted the NBC radio weekend magazine Monitor during 1972. Fleming reprised his role as host of Jeopardy! in the 1982 movie Airplane II: The Sequel and in "Weird Al" Yankovic's music video "I Lost on Jeopardy". Fleming was also often called upon to host mock versions of Jeopardy! at trade shows and conventions.

Fleming declined an offer to reprise his role as Jeopardy! host when Merv Griffin began developing a revival of the show in 1983. As a result, Alex Trebek (a personal friend of Fleming's) took the position instead and continued to host the program until his death in 2020. In interviews conducted in the early years of the Trebek version, he stated that he disliked the show's new direction and the various changes that the revival's producers had made. He disapproved of moving production from his native New York to Los Angeles, suggesting to a Sports Illustrated journalist in 1989 that filming in California made the show feel superficial and anti-intellectual:

"[Fleming] hates the glitz, the polish. 'It's not part of the real world.' he says, 'it's part of Hollywood.'

In his day, the show was filmed in Manhattan. 'People are more intelligent in New York,' says Fleming, a native of the Bronx. 'New Yorkers are alive, with-it. They know what's going on in the world. In California there's no mental stimulation. A typical conversation consists of 'I've got a new diet. How's your tennis game? Are those clothes from Gucci?' And then you look at each other.'"

He also claimed that the new show was too easy and he feuded publicly with the staff of the modern Jeopardy! over the nature of the clues, as he believed that the writers were inserting hints into the clues to make the correct response seem obvious and easy to guess.

From 1979 to until his retirement in 1992, Fleming hosted a daily radio talk show on KMOX in St. Louis. On Sunday evenings, he occasionally co-hosted Trivia Spectacular with David Strauss, a St. Louis schoolteacher. He also hosted the syndicated radio program When Radio Was, as well as two installments of the PBS science program NOVA as part of the National Science Test, where a studio audience tested their knowledge of science against a celebrity panel.

Personal life
Fleming married Mildred Goodrich in 1946 in North Carolina. They had a daughter Jan. In 1954 he married actress Peggy Ann Ellis, who worked on The Merv Griffin Show. Fleming denied having any children in a 1974 interview, conducted after his divorce from Ellis. Despite insisting he would never marry again after his divorce from Ellis, Fleming married Becky Lynn in a private ceremony at Norman Vincent Peale's home. He soon adopted Becky's two children from a prior marriage. Together they had five grandchildren. In 1992, Fleming retired and the family moved to Crystal River, Florida. He remained active in charity work: he hosted fundraising videos for the Citrus County United Way and became involved with the Citrus County Abuse Shelter Association, Inc. (where Becky served as director). He also hosted a syndicated television program, called Senior America, which showcased seniors and senior activities.

Death
Fleming died of pancreatic cancer on April 25, 1995, at age 70, at his home in Florida. According to his obituary in the Los Angeles Times, he had been diagnosed with cancer two weeks before his death. He was cremated and his ashes were scattered at sea.

title: Art Fleming


text:
Talk:Under Construction (album)

Fair use rationale for Image:Under contruction missy elliot.jpg
Image:Under contruction missy elliot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Under Construction (album)


text: Category:Bulgarian football managers

title: Category:Bulgarian football managers


text:
Talk:This Is Not a Test!

Move page
Any objections to moving it to This Is Not a Test! (album)?? When I saw this article in RC, I thought it was a newbie working with a test page wanting people to think it's not a test. Georgia guy 17:36, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Producers
I can't seem to find the booklet of the album and I'm having trouble finding the producers for the songs. If anyone could add them, it would be helpful. Diverse Mentality  04:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:This Is Not a Test!


text:
User:Dougthebug

Douglas Gray

Manager, Applied Science, Amazon.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/de3ug

http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=YliQcmwAAAAJ

title: User:Dougthebug


text: Talk:Da Real World

title: Talk:Da Real World


text:
Talk:Supa Dupa Fly

Genre field
The genre field in the infobox is for "genre", not musical element(s). The cited content for the previously included genres acknowledge them as "elements". Dan56 (talk) 20:59, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Supa Dupa Fly


text: User talk:69.110.17.81

title: User talk:69.110.17.81


text: Talk:Country Grammar

title: Talk:Country Grammar


text:
Talk:Tamil cuisine

 * I am merging Cuisine of Chennai into this page if any one has suggestions please contribute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.25.185 (talk) 18:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * just trying to contribute whatever I can do. Please feel free to make changes and rearrangements/introducing fresh texts, etc. as may be required. My exposure to Tamil cuisine is an external one - I have remained on a touring job in 4 states of South India for 4 years. I suggest someone more familiar with the matter should contribute. I shall continue for few more days.--Bhadani 02:49, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for your good work. I'll try to find some more references and enhance this. -- 04:00, May 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * No thanks at all, it is my privilege - after all I have survived on Tamil cuisine for four years from July 1999 until May 2003, away from home. I still do enjoy Tamil food with family in "that famous chain of restaurants" dotting different parts of Chennai. Some one should suggest a different word for section Specialities. Further edits / reedits are requested. Thanks.--Bhadani 18:43, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Other stuff
This looks really good. On two levels, as, alas, there is no Tamil food where I am. Madhur Jaffrey has some interesting things to say about Tamil cuisine, such as its predominant influence on Malaysian cuisine, and Tamil temple lunches - for their specialties, and as default cooking schools for chefs who move on to restaurants. Also, I found some interesting history in Achaya's book. I don't want to start adding things to Bhadani's work because I am so not even close to an expert (just an enthusiast), so shall I dump the stuff here? --Mothperson 13:30, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) Also, as much as I adore Yamuna Devi, I'm not sure it's appropriate to stress the award win in the body of the article, if only because most people will assume she's Indian, when she is/was Joan Campanella from California. Move to references? --Mothperson 13:41, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC) P.S. Can you tell me what the grain rāgi is?
 * Most welcome, please "dump" here, I will "consume" everything - every bit of information will be reflected in the article. Thanks. You are welcome to edit yourself - plz do that for sure.--Bhadani 18:07, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually I am sure too many cooks shall not spoil the "cuisine" (lol) - creating this article should be like a picnic. Everyone should do a little bit of editing, so that we can share a big bowl !--Bhadani 17:55, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I was partly trying to avoid having to read about things I can't have for dinner. But I can probably manage not to drool on the keyboard.  I think what I'll do is add stuff I feel comfortable with (like the Malaysian reference, and maybe some history) and put the other stuff (like maybe the temples?) here for you to consider.  Picnic!  Love your analogy.  Pass me a dosa, please?  --Mothperson 19:46, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This and this say it is called finger millet, though I think the Tamil equivalent is képpai. -- 06:58, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

Protein
I don't think it is correct to say that the vegetarian South Indian diet is a "rich source of" proteins, in fact it is quite the opposite, compared to other diets which include large quantities of dairy, eggs and meat. Rice has half the protein content as wheat (7-8% vs. 15% by calories). The two decent sources of protein in the vegetarian South Indian diet, lentils and yoghurt, are both diluted with water (sambhar and mooru respectively). And vegetables have a lot less protein than most Tamils seem to assume. Arvindn 08:32, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Good call. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 10:26, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

My recollection was that adults on average consumed 400-500 grams of uncooked rice plus 200-250 grams of uncooked legumes per day. This provides much more than the RDA for protein, about 50 grams for adults. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.249.25 (talk) 07:14, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

 * According to the Indian Government's Standard Reference System baseline survey of 2014 only 2.35% of people in Tamil Nadu over the age of 15 state that they are vegetarian.

So yes the article is badly skewed towards vegetarianism and is therefore very much out of date. In fact most South Indians are not vegetarian, and it's not till you get to Northern states such as Gujarat or Rajastan that you begin to see substantial numbers of vegetarians. MichaelGG (talk) 03:01, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Seafood?
I am worried that this article places too much emphasis on the vegetarian aspect of Tamil cuisine. In India as a whole, about 20% of the population is vegetarian; even though it is quite likely that the percentage is higher in Tamil Nadu, it is still definitely a minority. Perhaps there is a selection bias, with an unrepresentatively high proportion of Tamil wikipedians being vegetarian? Anyways, I think fish in particular is an important part of Tamil cuisine, karuvaadu or meen kozhambu being as much of a signature item as idli or dosa. I am unfortunately not sufficiently knowledgeable to make any changes myself, as I too am a vegetarian. Arvindn 19:25, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I feel that the percentage of vegetarians in Tamil Nadu (a maximum of 25%) would be lower than the rest of the country. Perhaps, you're from Chennai to have gotten this impression ;) Or my perception may be because, I come from Madurai. However, you've just committed a major sin by reminding me of my favourite dish, karuvaadu. You don't know the consequences. :-) Let me try to balance the selection bias; bear with the stench. ;) -- Sundar \talk \contribs 08:08, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Excellent! I'm curious to know what is the percentage of Tamil vegetarians anyway; googling turned up no numbers, but some random webpage that claimed Tamil Nadu had the maximum precentage of vegetarians and Karnataka the second highest. But then, there was another page that claimed Gujarat had the highest. Although it is unlikely that it is highest in Tamil Nadu, I feel it is definitely higher than the national average, because of the existence of states like West Bengal where, for all practical purposes, everyone eats fish. Arvindn 09:42, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The Bengali argument sounds plausible. I do not know the national average. However, a crude caste-based deduction (sorry for this) based on the forward communities and the backward communities would give a (not a tight) lower bound of 7% per this. In my experience, the percentage varies sharply with different samples. In our apartment shared by 6 of us, four are vegetarians (including one recent convert out of choice), and the other two include my brother and me. The Tamils among my postgraduate batch had a "disproportionate" (to the general population percentage) number of Brahmins (and also the number of Chennaiites) and hence, the percentage would run into nearly 70% Whereas, my undergraduate class (which had people from all over Tamil Nadu, but more from the south) had around 70% non-vegetarians. In my village school, the percentage was more like 90% non-vegetarians. The web, however, projects a very different story. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 10:13, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Kari
The meaning of the Tamil word kari in the article is completely incorrect, even though it cites a book. The correct etymology is burnt/blackened, and refers to the way meat/vegetables were grilled in ancient times. The current meaning of the word is roughly "stir fried". I have posted a detailed etymology here, but that's the gist. Since I can find no reference, as explained therein, this would constitute original research, but if there is consensus I think the article (as well as curry) can be updated. Thoughts? Arvindn 19:45, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Arvind, I'm afraid you're wrong here. கரி is different from கறி. We use the former to mean burnt stuff, more specifically burnt charcoal. The latter is used to refer to meat primarily, but by extension, would mean vegetables if we add the qualifier காய். Interesting point that you raised though. Perhaps the two are related. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 08:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * In that case, how would you explain that kaikari is thought to be a corruption of kaikani, and that many vegetable vendors are apparently reverting to the latter term? Plus, spellings are not immutable. Anyway check this page. It doesn't have Tamil spellings, but AFAICT, it gives the root of the word *kar_-i (meaning = vegetables, curry) as "*kar_-" (by clicking on the finger icon). The root "*kar_-" has two entries, one meaning black and the other meaning anger, enmity. I think we can safely say that kari more likely comes from black than anger :) Thirdly, if kari didn't come from black it would be an enormous coincidence, because the old way of cooking them did result in partial blackening. Arvindn 09:13, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Intersting. I found this from the link given by you. This was the sixth entry in the page you'd given link for. I don't know how to "read" the page cited by you. What is the relationship betwen the words in the link cited by you - alphabetic neighbours or etymologically relatives? -- Sundar \talk \contribs 09:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The entry for "*kar_-i" has a link called "Dravidian etymology". Clicking it takes you to "*kar_-". Which most probably means that "*kar_-" is the root of "*kar_-i", the way I see it. One more point for your consideration: I think kaikari is usually applied to fresh vegetables rather than cooked, which would support its derivation via kaikani rather than via kari. In any case, the etymology in the article appears highly dubious - if there is one unifying property of kari's, regardless of the etymology, it would probably be that they are all dry preparations, whereas sauces are almost always liquid. Arvindn 09:37, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * On clicking the etymology link, it takes me here which shows the meaning as "vegetables". Aren't we on the same page? In any case, I agree with your last line and the dubiousness of the current etymo in the article. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 10:14, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree it is a little confusing. My interpretation is that "*kar_-" meaning vegetables is not a separate word root, because it is not listed on the main page; instead one of the words listed under "*kar_-" (which are black and anger) must be the root from which "*kar_-"=vegetables is derived. Arvindn 10:19, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Got your point now. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 10:22, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Tamil Words in English
Can't speak much about most of this article, not being Tamil, but I wanted to ask how certain the author was that the origins of both "orange" and "mango" were from Tamil. Malayalam has the same words so it is possible that these words came into the English through contact with Malayalees as well. Just wanted to throw that out there because I thought the tone of the etymology of these two words was very definitive when there is actually some doubt as to which language these words came from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayalam_language#Evolution states the evolution of the Malayalam Language and it is quite clear that Malayalam and Tamil have common roots and Malayalam split from Tamil at a much later stage. So, it would be good to reason that the word 'Mango' was derived from the common Tamil ancestor. Vikram 1982 18:38, 14 October 2007 (UTC)Vikkki

I don't think mulligatawny derives from Milagu Thanneer but rather from Malligai Thanner - makes more sense to me both phonetically and content-wise. Malligai or Malli or Koththu Malli is a name for coriander (dhania) in Tamil and is widely used in Sambar powder and in many soups. While pepper is also a common ingredient, Milagu --> Mulliga seems far fetched. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.52.130.30 (talk) 21:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

"Virundhu Saapadu"???
"Virundhu Saapadu" doesnt make sense. Though it might be used in day-to-day talk, the term Virundhu would by itself state a good full course meal and hence the word Saapadu is redundant. Vikram 1982 18:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)Vikkki

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 20:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Oldest vegetarian culinary heritage?
"Tamil cuisine (தமிழ் உணவு) is one of the oldest vegetarian culinary heritages in the world.[1]"

This line cites a page that simply repeats the claim without providing any detail. Is there some way to substantiate the claim, maybe by comparing it with other known old vegetarian traditions? Otherwise it's simply an unspported claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.227.67.193 (talk) 06:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Popular Sri Lankan Taimil Dishes - included in the article

 * Puttu - rice cake
 * Appam
 * Kottu

Sri Lankan Tamils rarly eat Idly and Dosa, and more frequently eat Puttu and Idiyapam. Also, Kottu Roti is highly popular as a take out amonge immigrant populations in Canada, and Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.68.198 (talk) 03:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

What a pity pictures are not on Commons!
A great pity these pictures are not on Commons, as it prevents one in practice to illustrates Tamil cuisine in other Wikipedia/other languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs)

 * They can be copied over. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:11, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

"Meals and their traditional meanings" needs serious attention!
This section is written in first person and includes what appears to be discussion. There is some reference to it being a transcript, if so the original should be sited and the content rewritten. I know nothing about this topic, so am not qualified to make the large changes needed. Segal'sLaw (talk) 17:56, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Reflist
Does anyone know why the reflist produces 4 entries, when there are only 3 notes in the text? Where does the fourth one come from and how can we delete it?

Lawsonstu (talk) 12:13, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Copy edit
I have made a comprehensive copy edit and removed some unsourced content such as traditional dishes. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 13:00, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Chippi appam into Tamil cuisine
One line unreferenced article. No reliable sources to be found. It should be merged into the main article until reliable sources can be added. Spudlace (talk) 22:48, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ Klbrain (talk) 10:47, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Regional cuisine
Aside from this section being entirely unsourced, the phrase 'each area where Tamils have lived' is extremely vague and the list of regions possibly contentious (I suggest eliminating the sentence or being more specific about the population referenced). If the objective was to describe regional variations solely within the state of Tamil Nadu, please mention that in the title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DiscoLuvrr321 (talk • contribs) 05:11, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Cuisine
Talk about tamil nadu food cuisine 115.97.21.216 (talk) 08:54, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Other Tamils
The title of the Article is "Tamil cuisine", so it should cover Tamil cuisine everywhere - including the cuisines of the Tamils around Jaffna and the Tamil Diaspora. The Article is in the Indian cuisine category. Either the content should be increased to fit the title, or the title should be adjusted to match the content.

 * 2 Regional cuisine
 * 2.1 Chola Nadu
 * 2.2 Pandiya Nadu
 * 2.3 Kongu Nadu
 * 2.4 Tondaimandalam

Do those regions include the Northern Province of Sri Lanka and thereabouts? 94.30.84.71 (talk) 21:08, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tamil cuisine


text: User talk:69.17.65.162

title: User talk:69.17.65.162


text:
Loch Eil

Loch Eil (Loch Iall) is a sea loch in Lochaber, Scotland that opens into Loch Linnhe near the town of Fort William.

Ardvorlich notes that "the name of the Chief of Clan Cameron is spelt LOCHIEL, while the name of the loch is spelt LOCH EIL."

Loch Eil Outward Bound railway station and Locheilside railway station are both situated on the northern shore of the loch. Achaphubuil is on the southern shore. Lochiel was a historic place east of Fassfern on the north shore of Loch Eil. The place was home to Jacobite chieftain Donald Cameron, of Lochiel.

Remnant septs of Clan Chattan such as MacPhail remained in the area after the Clan mostly moved to Inverness. These MacPhails became part of Clan Cameron.

The earliest known residence of the chiefs of Clan Cameron was on Eilean nan Craobh (The island of the trees) just outside the entrance to Loch Eil. They moved from there to Tor Castle in the 17th century and later to Achnacarry. The island has now become part of harbour works.

Loch Eil and Loch Linnhe are joined by narrows at Annat where a paper mill once stood and where there is a now a large timber yard.

title: Loch Eil


text:
Talk:Mas Oyama/Archive 1

Choi youn Eui vs Mas Oyama
HE WAS KOREAN. HE WAS BORN AND BREED IN KOREA NOT JAPAN OR OKINAWA!!!! IT IS FAIR TO SAY KYOKUSHIN KARATE IS " KOREAN ROOT PLANTED IN JAPAN KARATE". NOT OKINAWA!!!!

Whoever added so much text to the article recently, your inputs are appreciated. However, Mas Oyama spent the majority of life in Japan, and therefore, Mas Oyama is the name that should be emphasized when discussing him, not his Korean name that he only used for a short period of his life before he left for the country (Japan) that he apparently felt would provide him with more opportunities to do what he wanted to do than his native country. If you want to say that he changed his name to a Japanese name because of racism in his adopted country, then you need to cite an original source, because I've seen other sources say that he renamed himself for less pejorative reasons. The majority of his life was spent in Japan, with Japanese people, speaking in Japanese, leading a Japanese martial arts' organization. Most of the stories about his early life like living on the widow's farm and training for three years in the mountains by himself are now openly being questioned by martial artists around the world who knew him before he passed away. The article should reflect that. If you want the article to take the stance of your personal interpretation of his life, then you need to back-it-up with a lot of good references, and that means references besides advertisements for Kyokushin organizations. If you're not able or willing to do that, then I think some edits are appropriate to this article. Cla68 03:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I heavily disagree. CHoi youn Eui was his name, and most of his close friends and students were Korean or of Korea descent. Chae Bae Dal, kid of like Mr. Korean People, translated, was his nickname. He took a Japanese name to be used while in Japan. I train in Kyokushin in Korea and my teacher was a personal friend and studet of his. He was proud to be Korean and he loved Japanese budo culture. He was himself, he had a Korea background and a Japanese background, it shouldn't be said that we should forget his korean side just to make him more two dimensional for us. He was a Korean, and he DID face rascism when he first went to Japan, and when he was winning all the fights against Japanese fighters using their own budo, his style of i, they weren't happy. It was because of his determination and the great style that he created that got him to be accepted. This is portrayed very well in the movie, "fighter in the Wind." I am aware that it is just a movie, however, but it does show the side from a Korean point of view, which has some truth in it as well. Many Koreans of his time weren't allowed to be added to the rosters of dojos as students. So, I don't need to be able to cite any specific source, I can tell you that he was a human being of Korean heritage who was proud to be Korean, and who loved japanese culture and lived in Japan. That doesn't make him so two dimensional that one could forget that he was korean. He visitd Korea frequently, my teacher has remarked on this numerous times.

Choi Yeong-Eui vs Masutatsu Oyama
I think it would be offensive to him and his parents who named him Choi Yeong-Eui not to use both names as much as you can. Even in Japan, it was highly publicized that he liked to be called Bae-dal (which was the Korean pronounciation of Mas Oyama read in Hanja). How justified is it to say he liked to be called Mas Oyama when he initially used a Japanese name in Japan because of the prejudices in that country against Koreans. Many Koreans living in Japan today will use a Japanese name cause they fear getting fired from their jobs if they use of Korean name.
 * Whatever. This article is for the entire on-line community, not just (or specifically) for Mas' parents.  However, I think the article as it is right now is on the right track, but definitely needs more input, especially verifiable, referenced information on Mas' life.  By the way, why don't you sign-in with a user account and user name and sign your posts to this discussion page? Cla68 12:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Someone just made an edit to the article that shows Oyama's nationality in a way that I hadn't thought of before. In 1923, when Oyama was born, Korea was actually part of Japan (the Japanese Imperial Empire). Cla68 11:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This question's answer is very simple. When Mas Oyama naturalized in Japan, he decided his name to Oyama Masutatsu by himself. Therefore, his name is Oyama Masutatsu.Britenoar 07:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Who's idea was this?
I saw what happened when someone cut and past a Mas Oyama article onto Wikipedia. But why didn't anyone just revert it back to the way it was instead of starting a new article? The original Wikipedia article way ten times better and rewriting it was an absurd idea. Back then I didn't know how to use Wikipedia or else I would have reverted it myself. -xx.124.113.216

 * What happened to the old article? Shawnc 00:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The previous anonymous comment was written by me. I have a username now. I recently discovered that Wikipedia articles and pictures can be undeleted. If anyone saw the old article please support me. Taeguk Warrior 12:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Even though there's some garbage in this entry as it's written now (someone keeps putting the Oyama legendary stuff in there as if it's fact even though a lot of it is probably false), there are still some good stuff that's been placed on there, like the article outline, some of the references, the bio info box, and his name written in Japanese and Korean characters. So if you want to revert back to an older version, instead, I would suggest copying the text you like from the older version and adding it to this newer version, editing it so it fits, and then save it. Cla68 12:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I undeleted the history (and also moved your request to the proper section. It looks like a fix of the cut-and-paste that the admin accidentally forgot to complete. Sorry for the inconvenience, I'm sure he was just interrupted in Real Life before he could complete the move. Please let me know if you see any othe problems. --Deathphoenix ʕ 13:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I reverted it. The newer article had a lot of quotes that were unsourced so I didn't put them back into the article. Taeguk Warrior 18:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Oyama's Bull Fighting Legacy
Someone (it wasn't me) deleted the text about Oyama fighting and killing bulls, stating that is'a bunch of hoo-ha. I believe that his bull fighting exhibitions should be mentioned, but need to be accompianied by an inline citation to a credible source. That should keep them from being deleted. I think there's a website that has actual video of Mas fighting and knocking down a bull. If you can find it, that should be a credible source, among others that should be available. Cla68 23:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I had to delete it now; I didn't realize it was deleted before. The reason I and deleting it is that it is just taken verbatim from [] which explicitly has a copyright.

There is a website that has a video that everyone here has seen of Oyama fighting one young bull that is restrained at the head, otherwise known as a bridled calf. Adult bulls are far larger than that. If you want to post that he beat one calf then go ahead. Or find a credible source for the more outlandish claims. I just wish people would stop posting this "killed most of them in one blow" crap. What does that even mean? That he only hit them once? That seems unlikely since these same people also claim that he would chop of a horn with his first blow. Oyama did many impressive things in his life, it would be insulting to him to resort to half truths and embellishments to make him look better. 207.161.3.28 04:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)Matt

 * One problem is that Oyama never tried to refute any of the of outlandish stories told about him. People would repeat these tales, and Oyama would reportedly just stand there, nodding and smiling.  It doesn't mean that these legends and tall tales can't be written in the article, but they should be in a separate section titled "Oyama legends" or "unverified feats" or something like that. Cla68 04:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's a video from youtube.com showing Mas Oyama bring down a bull and then Karate-chopping his horn off. Link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MapyZq4YIo

Ok this video shows Oyama putting down other Karate-fighters with single hits. As it also shows Oyama karate-chop through glass-bottles. Link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh8FfmE7sqs

These sites reference Mas Oyama's 300 man kumite fight were he defeated 300 fighters. 100 fighters in one day each.

http://www.masutatsuoyama.com/100mankumite.htm http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/article.php?a=12 http://www.cvdnet.com/sidneykai/mas.htm

NPOV: Recent changes to the opening
He was born in Japan, since Korea was part of Japan at the time, so he had Japanese citizenship (or at least was a Japanese national). Even if this is wrong, he had permanent residency in Japan, and was naturalized. There may have been a gap (we'll have to look it up) before he naturalized when he had permanent residency instead (so "or" is not a contradiction). What is wrong with the version I've proposed in various different incarnations that says he was ethnically Korean (which recognizes his ancestry), but had Japanese citizenship or permanent residency for his lifetime? It's less controversial (I thought) than simply saying he was a Korean-Japanese, though I believe this latter statement to be accurate? Saying (by itself) that he was a Korean karate master is really unnecessarily biased. I personally like the opening statement

"Masutatsu "Mas" Oyama (大山倍達 Ōyama Masutatsu, 1923 - 1994), was a karate master who founded Kyokushinkai; a style of karate which stresses that its students should submit to vigorous training."

We can go into the ancestry bit in the next sentence. — LactoseTI T 04:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

 * You have just trapped yourself in your own words. 72.69.105.138 04:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

 * How? Please share your reasoning.  I've been trying for days to come up with a neutral opening; others have tried, too--but it seems you are just shoving the same old opening down everyone's throat without any real reason. — LactoseTI T 04:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I believe Mr. ``72.69.105.138`` is using an anonymous IP address instead of signing-in to his regular user account in order to avoid getting in trouble for the ``3-revert in 24-hours`` rule. Anyway, the best way to solve this disagreement is to cite a source for confirmation of Oyama's true citizenship and nationality status.  There must be something, somewhere, such as a newspaper or magazine article, book, or website that discusses it.  Then, if someone reverts it, it would be considered vandalism to revert or delete cited/sourced statements and we could ask an administrator to block that IP address or user account. Cla68 14:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually, I believe he's not logging in because his account is currently banned (again). — LactoseTI T 09:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"He was born in Japan, since Korea was part of Japan at the time, so he had Japanese citizenship..."

http://countrystudies.us/japan/55.htm

False. Even the majority of Zainichi Koreans today do not have Japanese citizenships.

"Even if this is wrong, he had permanent residency in Japan, and was naturalized."

False. Oyama lived in Korea for periods of time. Especially towards the end of his life.

"Saying (by itself) that he was a Korean karate master is really unnecessarily biased."

Oyama was a Korean karate master. A fact is not a point of view. It is also disrespectful not to mention that because he faced a lot of discrimination for being Korean.

"His Korean name was Choi Yeong-eui (Hangul: 최영의; Hanja: 崔永宜), but he preferred Choi Bae-dal (최배달; 崔倍達), modeled after his Japanese name."

False. Bae-dal and Masutatsu are the same names with different pronunciations. Bae-dal means "dual ethnicity". So his name was not "modeled" after his Japanese name.

You have not a single source, and therefore must resort to contradictions such as "Born a Japanese citizen, he maintained Japanese citizenship or permanent residency there throughout his life." Not to mention the entire statement is false and unsourced.

"...but it seems you are just shoving the same old opening down everyone's throat without any real reason."

The majority of your edit summaries simply say "more neutral version" and "don't remove content". That is not a real reason. The rest of the time you use circular reasoning by writing what you wrote in the article as your edit summary. That only works if you have a source; which you don't. And did I mention almost everything your wrote is false? 72.69.105.138 08:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

 * The whole point of mentioning permanent residency is because Koreans lost their Japanese citizenship at the end of World War II. He had it, and lost it.  All Koreans were considered Japanese nationals while Korea was part of Japan.

 * Permanent residency isn't a matter of where he lived, it's what his passport said. Clearly, he had the ability to live in Japan permanently.  He was granted blanket permanent residency in Japan like the other people who lost their citizenship.  Then, in 1968, he naturalized.  — LactoseTI T 09:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

 * To make this constructive... how about the following opening (I think I suggested it at some point, and you shot it down, but maybe we can get a reason as to why):

 * Masutatsu "Mas" Oyama (大山倍達 Ōyama Masutatsu, 1923 - 1994) was a karate master who founded Kyokushinkai; a style of karate which stresses that its students should submit to vigorous training. He was born Choi Yeong-eui (Hangul: 최영의; Hanja: 崔永宜), but preferred Choi Bae-dal (최배달; 崔倍達)[citation needed]. An ethnic Korean, he spent most of his life living in Japan.

 * I think it more appropriately focuses on different parts of his life; it may understate his life as a Japanese person, but it's a good start on a neutral opening, I think. — LactoseTI T 09:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

You just repeated what you said before and STILL don't have a source. 72.69.105.138 01:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Are you suggesting you would like a source that people born in Korea/Koreans were considered Japanese nationals during the period where Korea was part of Japan? If you've like to save me a couple of minutes and have got access to any high school history book, it should be there.  If you would like me to, I'd be happy to give you a few such references.  — LactoseTI T 01:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You have no source. Just as I thought. 72.69.105.138 01:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * How about [] or [] or []. Sorry, I didn't realize this is what you wanted a source for--it's hard to remember some things "common knowledge" to some are perhaps not to others,  since Wikipedia editors come from all backgrounds/ages. — LactoseTI T

None of those are Mas Oyama articles. 72.69.105.138 01:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Right--and you point would be what? They discuss the situation that all Koreans born during that period were Japanese nationals.  — LactoseTI T 01:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Although those sources don't specifically mention Oyama, they do provide evidence of what his citizenship status probably was. However, unless a source is found that specifically states that Oyama fell under the situation listed in those sources, some editors (perhaps Mr. ``72.69.105.138`` might be one of them) will still argue that the evidence isn't conclusive enough to overrule their POV on the issue. Cla68 09:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, those sources say what his sdituation was up until 1945, right? So it's not controversial to say that he was a Japanese national for at least (a significant) part of his life.  If anything, I haven't seen any source proving he ever had Korean citizenship (though I expect he did after the war and before he naturalized), so that would be "unsourced" as well.  While we know for a fact he had Japanese citizenship up until 1945, without additional sources we don't know exactly what happened after that.

 * As for sources about status as a Japanese citizen--in Donbas, ISBN 0595150438, Oyama repeatedly states he is Japanese. In Oyama: The Legend, the Legacy by Michael L. Lorden, I believe they go into this as well (though I don't have my copy right in front of me).  Perhaps the former source would be enough to warrant changing the opening to a more neutral version.  I really think he is defined by being a karate master well before being either Japanese or Korean--so unless we get really strong sources, I suggest moving this out of the first sentence--the line about his status is simply too long to put in there and mucks up for what he is known.

 * I really don't care one way or another what this article states as long as it's balanced; I just think it's too extreme to shove unsourced "he was actually Korean" in the first sentence of the paragraph--he was ethnically, but the way it's worded in Taeguk Warrior's (and his other IP's) versions it is misleading. Note that I'm not trying to change the "Korean" to "Japanese"--and TW seems to want to strike from the record the fact that he even lived in Japan for most of his life.  Taeguk: Are you really claiming this needs an additional source as well?

 * Read the opening paragraph the way it is--what do you think a person who never heard of Masutatsu Oyama before would conclude? It sounds like he was born, lived, and died in Korea, when in reality the man spent most of his life in Japan proper (and virtually all of his life on Japanese soil, living in Japanese Korea/China as a child), as a self identified Japanese man, building a career in Japanese martial arts and culture. — LactoseTI T 09:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Nice presentation of your case. If, however, you could add-in inline citations from the sources to the article that you mention above, that would, I believe, fairly cement your case.  One thing I've discovered as a participant in the Wikipedia Martial Arts project is that it's really difficult, but no less important, to find credible sources for assertions on martial arts' topics.  By the way, if all the IP editor's disputed edits really are from the single editor you mention, then I think that person is painting him or herself into a corner.  If he or she was the one who recently tried to delete previous comments from this discussion page, then I no longer have any sympathy (or empathy) for whatever sanctions are placed on him or her in the future for similar actions. Cla68 02:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Choi Bae-dal married a Japanese woman thus the citizenship.
 * Wrong. In Japan, you need to formally renounce the citizenship of your birth to be naturalized.  It's not like America, which simply doesn't recognize dual citizenship.  In Japan, you need to actually write a letter to your home country's consulate and tell them you no longer want to be a citizen of their country.  Only then can you even begin the process of being naturalized.  So, it is impossible to become a citizen of Japan while remaining a citizen of another country.  I suppose it's possible to be a natural born Japanese who then attains citizenship of another country, but not the other way around.  Kajmal (talk) 02:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism and anti-Korean
as a man of neutral background...it surprises me to see so many anti-semitism and anti-Korean point of views on many articles of Wikipedia. however before attacking on my personal view, please think about the way most of you think..

i think it is quite shameful to see many people (usually non-German or non-Japanese) tend to think any story/article relating to Japan and Germany's warcrimes and their ethnic bashing/ethnic cleansing as being pro-Korean or pro-Semitism...i know it may be hard for you guys to think such things happened in the past but they did.

still many zainichi, Chinese nationals of Japan and Turks of Germany and British Asians suffer from hidden abuses...(inequality, ijime etc) and just because you're interested in Japanese/German culture that doesn't mean you have to worship them and defend their crimes as well.

you shouldn't have too much sympathy for the oppressors and admit to their mistakes in the past 202.37.68.16 06:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Before anyone considers responding to this, please be aware that this anonymous editor may be a sock puppet for a notorious POV-pusher whose account was given a long-term ban. Of course, this anonymous editor is free to sign-in and sign the message above with his account name to prove that I'm wrong, if I am. Cla68 14:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

"was said that he shaved one of his eyebrows so he would not leave the mountains."
"was said that he shaved one of his eyebrows so he would not leave the mountains."

Ok, so what exactly does this mean? Fred26 10:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kyokushin way.jpg
Image:Kyokushin way.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 00:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Sosai3.jpg
Image:Sosai3.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 07:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

So Nei Chu (소네이쥬, 1907-?)
In Korean its written "소내주" he was Korean trained together with Mas Oyama.

The article mentions "So Nei Chu (소네이쥬, 1907-?)" but it's uncited. This does not seem like a typical Korean name; it seems more like a Japanese name written in hangul. Can anyone cite this? Otherwise, we need to remove it. Heroeswithmetaphors (talk) 06:05, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Matsu Oyama Kamikaze
So i read. He wanted to be a kamikaze at the end of WWII. For some reasons, he wasn't allowed to do it. It's ironic, after all. He could have done the greatest of all 'breaking-proof': sink a US carrier! But it didn'happened.

Intro
Isn't the phrase "the first and most influential style of full contact karate" a little misleading? Almost by definition, karate has been full contact, though the tournament rules may not allow it.

Colonization of Korea vs. Annexation of Korea...
Historical Accuracy: Japanese Military occupation of Korea ( More Accurate). Average Japanese Joe Smo down the street didn't occupy Korea. It was Japanese Military Regime. Koreans have fought 36 years from Japanese Military Regime Occupation not from average Japanese down the street.

During the time frame of his birth in Korea, Korea was officially annexed by Japan (i.e. Korea was considered as part of the Japanese empire, Koreans were Japanese citizens, at least on paper) and not a colony. I think the first paragraph should be changed to provide more accuracy to the entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.253.243.157 (talk) 23:16, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Age
in my opinion 1994-1922 = 72 not 70. 88.77.0.17 (talk) 20:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The oldest student
not Bobby lowe. It is Japanese student. His name is Kyosuke Machida. —Preceding unsigned comment added by イケメン大王 (talk • contribs) 01:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mas Oyama/Archive 1