text:
Talk:Sabbat (English band)

Untitled
Why did someone put "musical style" smack dab in the middle of the biography again? it makes no sense at all for it to be there, it's an entirely different topic than band history. also, it doesnt really make sense to have a subsection named "musical differences" when the info going on to claim most differences were money related.

--- I've updated things a bit. One of the changed I made was putting the band picture first. This seems to be standard for most articles on bands. I also arranged the album covers chronologically, and added a basic article for Mourning Has Broken, and fixed a few gramatical errors and inconsistencies. I have a suggestion for a large change, so I'd though I'd post it here first to see what people think:

"Musical Differences", "Unofficial Reunion" and "Official reunion" sections are all in fact part of the bands biography, as the all detail the band's history. I think it would make sense for all of it to be under the "Biography" section, and then have subsections for "beginnings (or something like that)", "[insert name for hoattc/dreamweaver era]", "musical differences", "unofficial", "official", as they are really all different stages of the bands history.

Also, I think we should get a new picture for the top, which has Simon Jones in the picture.

If theres not comments on these ideas for a while, I'll make the changes...

- Jared July 9, 2007

Bio incomplete
Needs someone to do a bit of filling in in the middle/end of the bio. --KharBevNor 21:05, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi mate i have tried to put some info in relating to the fregmentation of the band and simon jones leaving.

I have e-mailed a friend and fellow fan and asked him to provide some info after dreamweaver.

I will help out when possible though.

and i know its a tedious subject - but Sabbbat as "thrash metal??"

article
Hey guys - the article is coming along well dont you think? Managed to get a lot more information about the formation of sabbat. have some info i am going to introduce about "dan or dave halliday" from Hell,who walkier quotes at the recent Nottingham rig gig. There is much new historical information about the band in the terrorizer magazine article [#152] and metal hammer january 2006 edition. If you have to make any serious changes to the article can we discuss them here before hand - that way we can get the article really spot on!

Thanks for all the help!

Ukbn2 04:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Thats about all the biog stuff i have for the band now - anybody got info on the fernandes guitars sneap used?Ukbn2 05:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

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Numerous minor updates
I did a quick bit of work on the article to improve its style and grammar -- I'd like to work on a Holosade article. I'm from the same dead-end small town as Simon Jones, so it's interesting to me.--Rfsmit (talk) 20:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move
Proposing straightforward move of contents from Sabbat (band) to Sabbat (British band) due to existence of Sabbat (Japanese band). Links to Sabbat (band) would then be either rewritten to Sabbat (British band), or redirected to Sabbath (disambiguation), which lists both bands. JJB 14:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I second that. I was just about to propose a move myself. --217 /83 14:44, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

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Sabbat (sábbát)
A boy's/man's name to mean Rest. In reference to the Observation of the calendar sabbaths. Juniefoure (talk) 13:28, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sabbat (English band)


text:
Talk:Grob's Attack

Old talk
I'm not a Grob player, so I'm not up on this. In the variation mentioned in the article, 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4? 3.c4, does 2...Bxg4? really deserve the question mark? I think this move is played by some strong players (at least the ones who like to snatch pawns), and so perhaps a more accurate assessment might be 2...Bxg4!?. Any thoughts? Quale 21:05, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Changed accordingly. Also, "spike opening" only gets 910 hits on google, of which the first 9 out of 10 have nothing to do with chess. I suspect that this may be a very limited regional reference, and as such has no business in this article. I have removed it accordingly. Themindset 09:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

 * "Spike Opening" refers to the label Grob applied to this opening in his newspaper column.As such, I am going to reinstate this aspect of the wiki. RBPierce 17:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

 * MCO 14 refers to a specific variation as the spike J. M. 07:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Only white?
Why is Grob's only used for white? I've tried it a lot and it works pretty well for black too. Dan Guan 04:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * "Grob's Attack" is the name given to the opening move 1.g4. By definition it's an opening for White. 1.e4 g5 is a different opening, sometimes called the Borg defence (from "Grob" spelled backwards) or the Basman defence (after Michael Basman). 213.249.135.36 20:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Romford Countergambit
This is 1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 d4 4. Bxb4 Nd7 5. Bxa8 Qxa8 6. f3 d3. At the moment there is a diagram of the position after 6...d3 but no explanation or discussion of this line in the article. 91.105.5.242 02:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Czech animadversion
Hello, --78.102.195.5 (talk) 11:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC) If you want to answer me, please write here: cs:User talk:Duff, thank you.
 * 1) I'm sorry, but my English is terrible
 * 2) In article is written "In Czechoslovakia 1.g4 is called Fric's Opening..."
 * 3) Czechoslovakia end in 1992, now it's Czech Republic and Slovak Republic
 * 4) I'm from Czech Republic and i know something about chess and chess openings, but i never heard "Fric Opening".

2...c6
This article currently has no discussion of 1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 c6, which I thought was the main line. 91.107.140.122 (talk) 20:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Fool's mate
Why is there a section on Fool's Mate here? Fool's Mate can also arise from Bird's Opening but that article doesn't even mention it -- and rightly so, since Fool's Mate is a curiosity with no relevance to actual play. Worse, this section makes it sound like the only reason for 1... e5 after 1. g4 is the hope of Fool's Mate; this is far from true as some writers recommend 1... e5 as the best response. 91.107.160.156 (talk) 20:48, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

 * I tend to agree. I'll cut it down to one sentence and put it in the see also.  Bubba73 (You talkin' to me?), 21:17, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Dubious
The article claims that 1.g4 is competitive with 1.h4 as White's worst first move. I find that hard to believe (see Barnes Opening). I do not have access to the source. Can anyone verify? Banedon (talk) 04:40, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, the article does not claim that "1.g4 is competitive with 1.h4 as White's worst first move" at all. What the article claims is that IM John Watson wrote that sentence and, since an inline citation is given, it does not appear dubious to me, even if one need not agree with his assessment. Dubious tag removed therefore. GregorB (talk) 22:55, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with that. Even if IM John Watson wrote exactly that, in the Barnes Opening page there is a corresponding claim that Edmar Mednis argued that 1.f3 is the worst possible White first move. Clearly, they can't both be correct. The question really is "did IM John Watson really write this and, if so, was there any context that has been missed?". I'm going to reinsert the dubious tag for this reason. Banedon (talk) 23:17, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It's hard to quantify objectively what is the White's single worst first move, so Mednis opting for 1.f3 is not really a contradiction, it is a matter of opinion. This is why I still think the dubious tag is inappropriate: since Watson's statement cannot be falsified (it is his opinion, it is duly presented as such, and that is that), there would be no legitimate way to remove the tag. If, on the other hand, the question is did Watson really write this, the correct tag would be Verify source. GregorB (talk) 23:51, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Or it could be that Watson's opinion is WP:FRINGE. In the same way arguing that 1.g4 is stronger than 1.e4 is definitely fringe. The Barnes Opening article gives more information on why it is considered inferior (opens diagonals, deprives the g1-knight of its best square, etc), but Watson's quote doesn't say anything about why the Grob is inferior. I still favour the dubious tag, but if you think verify source is better feel free to change it. Banedon (talk) 23:59, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I think you are right that your concern is best expressed by the dubious tag, although in this case I don't think the tag is justified as I explain below. There are three questions:
 * Does the text accurately reflect the source?
 * Is the source reliable for the subject matter in question (WP:RS)?
 * Does the source violate one of the other concerns (for example WP:NPOV or WP:UNDUE) that might disqualify it?
 * Question 1 would call for verify source. I haven't checked it, but let's assume for the moment that the quote accurately records what Watson wrote.  (This definitely needs to be verified if there's any question about it, but my guess is that this is an accurate quote.)  Question 2 I would answer in the affirmative: John Watson is a recognized expert in chess theory and his books are reliable sources.  Note in particular that when used as a direct quote about what he thinks he is exceptionally reliable, as John Watson is without a doubt a reliable source for what John Watson thinks about chess openings. In fact no better source for John Watson's opinion is possible than Watson himself.  The quote does not claim to present an absolute truth or a mathematical theorem about chess, the quote tells the reader what John Watson, as a recognized expert in chess theory, thinks about the Grob.  For question 3 I think we'll just have to disagree.  This is definitely a question that could merit a dubious tag, but in this case I don't think it's warranted.  Whether 1.g4 is better or worse than 1.f3 is not a matter that can be settled by proof, and experts may have differing opinions about chess openings.  You disagree with Watson, but since you haven't offered any evidence that Watson's opinion of the Grob is verifiably wrong or that his opinion is far outside the mainstream view of chess experts, I don't think the dubious tag is justified.  That said, if Mastering the Chess Openings Vol. 4 talks about 1.f3 then that might address your question about why Watson doesn't consider 1.f3 to be clearly worse than 1.g4 and 1.h4.  Quale (talk) 07:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I think #3 is the main concern I have, and the policy in question is WP:FRINGE. It's true that we can't argue 1.g4 to be better or worse than 1.f3 as rigorously as we can in science, but we can still say something about their relative merits. If we couldn't, we wouldn't be able to say 1.e4 better than 1.g4 either! The question then is whether Watson's opinion is fringe, and based on the Barnes Opening article I think there's a case for it being fringe. That article cites two authors who argue for 1.f3 being the worst: Edmar Mednis and Bent Larsen. Both these authors are GMs (Larsen was one of the world's best too), which should make them more authoritative than Watson. That article also gives reasons for why 1.f3 is the worst, while this one doesn't say anything. The best thing to do here in my opinion is to check Mastering the Chess Openings Vol. 4. I don't have access to this book unfortunately. If someone does, please do. Banedon (talk) 21:12, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * If I didn't make it clear, I think there is absolutely zero chance you can demonstrate that Watson's assessment of the Grob is a fringe view. It belongs in the article, and the tag should go.  The stuff you point to in the Barnes article doesn't come anywhere close to proving your point.  You need something much stronger than that to justify a dubious tag.  I think this kind of question can be fun for chess fans to discuss on the talk page (while remaining aware that this falls outside the purpose of WP:TALK which is discuss things that may improve the article rather than to merely chat about topics of interest to the editors), but there's nothing to warrant a tag or a change to the article.  If we can find a WP:RS that says the Grob isn't so bad, that opinion should also be represented in the article alongside the Watson quote.  Quale (talk) 03:38, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * You are sounding pretty aggressive, just saying. You say there is "absolutely zero chance" that Watson's assessment of the Grob is fringe, and yet you didn't provide any arguments for such other than "John Watson is a recognized expert in chess theory", which you have provided no sources for. You argue that the stuff in the Barnes article don't come close to proving that 1.f3 is worse than 1.g4, and maybe so, but it's better than nothing (which is what you have provided for the reverse assertion that 1.g4 is worse than 1.f3). You say that "if we can find a WP:RS that says the Grob isn't so bad [then something]", and there are two in the Barnes Opening article, yet I would not insert either into this article because counterarguments to the Grob being the worst possible first move are irrelevant to the Grob itself. It would belong in a worst possible first move in chess article, and we don't have one. Also to keep things in perspective, we are arguing over a dubious tag, and as far as I can tell, neither of us have read the source in question. If you want to activate our WP:DR process over such a thing, be my guest. Banedon (talk) 04:22, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Banedon, get over yourself. The two sentences in the Barnes opening say absolutely nothing about the Grob, and it's hard for me to understand how you can't comprehend that.  You are insisting that your opinion on chess theory trumps John Watson's.  That won't fly.  Quale (talk) 00:21, 29 November 2017 (UTC)  Also, are you sure you know what Larsen wrote about 1.f3?  I don't have his book, but even if I did I don't read Danish, so I would have trouble verifying it.  Quale (talk) 00:28, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Where did I ever express an opinion on either opening? My God. You are making me exasperated enough that I'm seriously considering activating the DR process myself. Over a dubious tag. What. Banedon (talk) 00:53, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

I certainly do not consider IM Watson's view of 1.g4 "fringe." I think virtually every strong player would agree that 1.g4 is a very weak opening move, and in contention for the "worst first move" crown. It weakens the kingside and does little to fight for the center. I think that if you asked strong players about 1.f3 they would have a similar reaction: one of the worst first moves, possibly the worst, weakens the kingside, takes away the knight's best square, much inferior to moves like 1.e4, 1.d4, and 1.Nf3 that occupy a center square and/or fight for control over center squares. I suspect that many or most strong players would consider 1.g4 and 1.f3 to be around equally weak, and consider both to be serious contenders for the "worst move" sobriquet. Although I realize that it's "original research" and thus not citeable in Wikipedia, if you put the positions after 1.g4 and after 1.f3 into an engine, I think you'll find that both positions are assessed as giving Black a significant advantage (around .8), whereas moves like 1.d4 and 1.e4 give White a .2 advantage or better. Watson's view of 1.g4 is a matter of opinion, and well within the mainstream of informed opinion, which has arrived at the consensus that 1.g4 is a really bad move. Thus, Watson's opinion is not "fringe." Krakatoa (talk) 19:25, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Watson also says 1.g4 is competitive with 1.h4 as the worst move though. If 1.f3 and 1.g4 are the main candidates for the worst move, then Watson comparing 1.g4 with 1.h4 should be a red flag as to his reliability as a source. Banedon (talk) 02:45, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt that Watson has devoted more than a few seconds to the question of whether 1.f3 or 1.h4 or 1.g4 is worse, why would he? (That's what wikipedia editors are for!) He is a respected writer on the game and his comments simply reflect the mainstream opinion of 1.g4. Watson books are good quality sources for chess articles in general. MaxBrowne (talk) 03:02, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Unorthodox Openings puts 1.g4 into Part II: The Bad and 1.f3 & 1.h4 into Part III: The Ugly, writing re 1.h4 (p. 103): "This opening has been played by Myers. He once wrote that 'If there were an election for the worst possible first move then 1.P-KR4 [1.h4] would have excellent winning chances.' Despite the fact that this move is thoroughly unmotivated and creates weaknesses with only vague promises of future potential [...], we still think it is merely Ugly, and that 1.g4 is worse." Re the Grob (1.g4), p. 75: "There are three basic strategies for White. One is the support of the g4 square with h3, a second is pressure against d5, or on the h1–a8 diagonal, keeping Black from capturing the pawn at g4, and the last is the advance of the h-pawn. We are not impressed by any of these, and feel that the weakening of the kingside is unjustified." FYI, --IHTS (talk) 04:29, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Edited the section to include above source, sidestepped the issue of which first move is the worst by simply not mentioning 1.h4 (or 1.f3). If anyone disagrees feel free to edit the section. Banedon (talk) 04:40, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

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Question mark
User:Fasscass has added a question mark to the very first occurrence of 1. g4 in this article.

This was discussed briefly in that editor's talk page, but I am trying to move the discussion here.

A few years ago, in this talk page, there was an argument about how the quotation from John Watson was to be treated in this article. Watson echoes a common opinion, that 1. g4 is just a bad move. The outcome was that we are quoting him, without any special qualification, although we also note that there have been masters, such as Grob and Michael Basman, who liked 1. g4.

Putting our own question mark on 1. g4, as opposed to quoting Watson, is "speaking in Wikipedia's voice". As a rule, this is not credible. Wikipedia is a bunch of anonymous guys sitting at computer terminals. Why should any reader give credence to Wikipedia's opinion? So if there is a question mark, as a rule, there should be a citation to a reliable source.

This is why there aren't too many question marks and exclams in the articles about chess openings. A footnoted reference to a reliable source is a lot of trouble to go to, just for a thumbs-up or thumbs-down opinion. Bruce leverett (talk) 13:56, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

 * Can't cite chapter and verse but apparently Larsen (hardly a conventional player) gives it a question mark, so that's pretty damning. Still, it's hard to argue that reliable sources in general assign the move a question mark. A ?! or a !? maybe. But there isn't really a RS consensus that 1.g4 is a ? move. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 14:25, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I haven’t played competitive chess for years which means my knowledge of the assessment of the move is probably way outdated. However, if reliable sources disagree on how it should be assessed, then the “?” seems inappropriate. Perhaps something about this disagreement should be added to the article as properly cited and attributed text or expanded upon if already there to reflect any recent developments (e.g. sourced critical commentary of recent assessments made by computers), but it seems a bad idea, in principle, to add “!”, “?” and the like to moves in Wikipedia articles unless they are part of a complete game score where a move might be assessed in a specific context. Wikipedia articles, in my opinion, aren’t chess opening books per se even though many may see and use them as such in some way. The addition of the “?” was a WP:BOLD edit made in good faith, but reverting per WP:STATUSQUO and WP:BRD is also something that can be done in good faith. The WP:ONUS still falls upon the person who wants to make the edit to establish a consensus for doing so if others disagree and there’s no strong policy or guideline based reason the edit needs to be made. — Marchjuly (talk) 22:29, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Do we accept Stockfish and Leela as reliable sources? I don't see why not since they're stronger than any human, but if we do then we can easily cite engine analysis for the question mark. Banedon (talk) 02:02, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * That's the thing, we don't accept engine analysis as reliable sources. Unless it's published in a reliable source, it's original research. WP:CHESSENGINE - yeah I wrote it but it reflects current wp chess and wikipedia consensus. WP:CHESSNOTATION is also relevant. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 02:26, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

He did it in a forum post, but Larry Kaufman sees fit to give it a question mark. He wrote (2019): I think that the best we can do at the present time to tell if a given opening position (not one that is obviously apt to be solved by brute force) is a win or a draw is to run the strongest version of Lc0 on it for a few minutes on a 2080 or better GPU with win prob. display. The threshold for a won position is probably about 70% or perhaps slightly higher, 71 or 72%, based on everything I've observed. For 1 g4?, it is about 68% for Black with 1...d5, so probably not a forced win although close enough to the line to leave that as a possibility. I think this statement falls under WP:SPS, so I added it to the article.

FWIW, engines certainly suggest that Benjamin and Schiller are right: 1.h4 is ugly, but 1.g4 is bad. Double sharp (talk) 22:03, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

 * As I read them, both WP:SPS and WP:RSSELF pretty clearly discourage you from using a comment in a blog post as if it were a reliable source. They make an allowance for a comment by an "established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications."  But Kaufman is not an expert in the Grob attack and has never (AFAIK) published about that opening.  What were you thinking? Bruce leverett (talk) 22:28, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * He has. In The Kaufman Repertoire for Black and White he wrote (p. 8): So you won’t find analysis on how to beat the Grob (1.g4?) or any other obviously inferior move at any point, and I may not always point out why some seemingly good move is not played. Usually the answer is some elementary tactic; if you can’t find it yourself ask any modern engine to solve the question for you. I admit that he never wrote a whole book about the Grob, but has any GM? Double sharp (talk) 23:08, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This is at least from an actual published book, but, come on, it doesn't look very substantial. I'm not trying to defend the Grob, I'm just trying to avoid using silly lightweight sources. Bruce leverett (talk) 01:49, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This is kind of a catch-22, isn't it? Authors who don't think the Grob deserves to be taken seriously are hardly going to give it any more weight than that. Given that the the average opinion of strong players is that 1.g4 is just a bad move (e.g. Schiller and Benjamin, Watson, Martin; or more briefly, van der Sterren FCO, Carlsen in an interview, Keene), ignoring them pretty much means taking it more seriously than average opinion thinks it deserves. (BTW van der Sterren treats it even less substantially than Kaufman: he doesn't even give it the dignity of naming it.) Now I admit that Kaufman in his post is going even beyond this average level of condemnation by saying that it might be on the brink of theoretically lost. But I think it's not really problematic to use opening repertoires as sources when they cursorily dismiss 1.g4. Indeed, that's probably the best place you could find the average current strong-player opinion on this first move, which seems to be that it is worth being cursorily dismissed. Double sharp (talk) 10:03, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

 * I don't see how this can be treated as a reliable source for the evaluation of 1.g4 either. Are we supposed to take from this that 1.h3 and 1.a4 are just as good as 1.e4?? I'm generally against talking about engines and "centipawns" in any discussion of an opening. They should be written from a human-centric viewpoint. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 07:51, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It surprised me too, but Stockfish has apparently analyzed all those moves to a 0.00 position. Banedon (talk) 15:22, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Even 1.e4? That's certainly not what Kaufman claimed in his latest opening repertoire based on Komodo and Lc0. Surely 1.e4, 1.d4, 1.Nf3, 1.c4, and 1.g3 are +/= rather than =. Double sharp (talk) 20:22, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Who even runs that site, and what engines do they even use? There's just no indication anywhere that it's a reliable source. The broader principle that we should be writing about openings from a human point of view stands too. "Centipawn" is not a normal chess term. If there is a reliable source that specifically says "engine X considers 1.g4 White's worst possible opening move" that would be ok, but not this mess. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 21:43, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I cannot find anyone saying that. Even Kaufman's suggestion that 1.g4 might be close to the border between drawn and lost is just in that forum post, and consensus here apparently doesn't see that as falling under the exception in WP:SPS. But I suppose Kaufman is not sure even there, so not much information is lost if we omit it. Double sharp (talk) 22:17, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It's not going on the page, but reading the last pages of that forum thread shows that Kaufman apparently changed his mind this year to the "1.g4 is probably a forced win for Black" side: It's impossible to prove, but I think it is likely that 1.g4 is losing. Current Komodo Dragon with a deep search gives it a slightly worse score than it gives to White with b2, c2, d2, or e2 removed, all of which are most likely losing for White, based on both general chess wisdom and on actual playouts by top engines. We haven't reached the point where we can answer questions like this definitively by analysis, we can only play them out at high level many times and go by whether the losing side holds half the time or not. So for now I suppose we do nothing, and add that iff he ever publishes that result in one of his books. Double sharp (talk) 22:24, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

What do the numbers mean? If chess were solved, every move could be evaluated as W, L, or D, and that would be that. Bruce leverett (talk) 22:36, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The site/database is run by Bojun Guo and the engine used is Stockfish. The info pages do a bad job of explaining how it works though. I'm told it's not "standard" Stockfish to high depth, which does prefer 1. e4, 1. d4 and 1. Nf3. Instead it does something like "conduct a brief search, then explore all the five best moves, then go back and explore the three best moves" - something like that. The goal is to explore the opening tree, not to find the best moves (see info pages). That's why it is exploring 1. g4 since left to its own devices Stockfish will prune that move. But it's still surprising to me that the most common first moves are rated 0.00, and for the purposes of claiming the Grob is busted DBCN might not be the best database to cite either since one would rather run normal Stockfish on 1. g4 to high depth. Banedon (talk) 23:47, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I have removed the sentence citing that database – violation of WP:NOR and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Cobblet (talk) 13:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
 * They just mean that one side has an advantage, scaled so that 1 point is roughly the sort of advantage you'd get for being up a pawn without compensation. Naturally if chess were solved we could ditch those, but since we can't, they at least provide some kind of guide. If you're up +1 you're obviously more likely to win than if you're up +0.5. So you can think of them as roughly correlating to expected winning percentages from that position (obviously assuming the resulting play is conducted with some level of common sense). That's why Kaufman can say in that post that 1.g4 is likely lost for White given the eval, while also admitting that no one can prove it. But I suppose this is kind of moot until/unless he publishes it in somewhere more reliable. Double sharp (talk) 22:50, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I am opposed to using any annotation symbols in the lead section of any chess opening article, even for something as straightforward as scholar's mate. Using a symbol in the lead is not a meaningful way of summarizing the article's content unless some additional explanation is provided in the lead itself; but if an explanation is provided, then the symbol is redundant. Moreover, even if the evaluation represented by the symbol can be cited to RSs, we should avoid anything in the lead that might give a reader the impression that we are editorializing. Cobblet (talk) 14:14, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

"Played" in TCEC
"The Grob was played in the superfinal of the 12th Top Chess Engine Championship season" - wasn't exactly "played" in the sense that any of the engines actually chose that move, it was rather one of the predetermined openings. 93.139.157.19 (talk) 23:20, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Stupid lines that nobody plays
Do we really need all these names that Eric Schiller or whoever made up for lines that nobody plays? MaxBrowne2 (talk) 23:40, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

 * The larger question is, how do we judge whether the name of an opening or of a variation belongs in Wikipedia? We have all discussed the notion of "reliable source" many times, but, looking through our articles about openings, I think there are various places where we don't cite a reliable source for the claim that such-and-such variation has the name so-and-so.  This problem presumably comes up in areas of intellectual endeavor other than chess, and I wonder how they handle it, and if they handle it more or less haphazardly than we do. Bruce leverett (talk) 03:48, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Any variation names not found in standard recognized works should require two reliable and independent sources. Reddit, online chess forums, Twitter, and any YouTube videos not produced by FIDE GMs are automatically disqualified as sources.  Quale (talk) 06:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The platforms like chess.com, lichess, chesstempo etc tend to copy each other and perpetuate names like the Coca Cola Gambit that you'll never find in any reputable chess book. There are a lot of "internet names". MaxBrowne2 (talk) 06:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Right, and silliness in wikipedia gets copied into other websites. Those are then cited as sources and the dubious claims become firmly rooted in wikipedia and are hard to remove.  Quale (talk) 00:05, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 * The name "Romford Countergambit" is given by Joel Benjamin and Eric Schiller in the 1987 book Unorthodox Openings, where it is credited to Romford, Essex player Nick Pelling. That one looks reasonably well established. The earliest reference I found to "Coca Cola Gambit" was a German forum post from 2008, with no print sources, or really any reliable sources at all for the name. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 22:59, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Grob's Attack


text:
Laila Morse

Maureen L Bass (' Oldman; born 1 August 1945), better known by her stage name Laila Morse''', is an English actress. After making her acting debut as Janet in the drama film Nil by Mouth (1997), she went on to join the BBC soap opera EastEnders as Mo Harris, a role she has played periodically since 2000.

Early life
Laila Morse was born Maureen L Oldman on 1 August 1945, to Leonard Bertram Oldman (1921–1985), a former sailor who also worked as a welder, and Kathleen ( Cheriton; 1919–2018). Her younger brother is actor and filmmaker Gary Oldman.

Early work
At the age of 51, Morse made her professional acting debut as Janet in the 1997 film Nil by Mouth. The BAFTA winning film also marked the debut of her brother Gary, as a writer and director. Morse's performance as the matriarch won her the award of 'Most Promising Newcomer in any Category' at the British Independent Film Awards.

Morse's television debut was as Janice Ryan in an episode of The Bill, which was followed by a regular role as Honky Mum in the BBC sitcom Honky Sausages, and the character Molly in the 1999 television production of Great Expectations. In 2000, Morse played Laila in the film Love, Honour and Obey.

EastEnders
In September 2000, Morse made her first appearance as Mo Harris in the BBC soap opera EastEnders. Introduced as the matriarch of the Slater family, her first scene in the soap was alongside Pam St Clement, who played Pat Butcher. A couple of weeks later, a television critic said that Morse had acted like "a lump of cardboard". Recalling the article, Morse replied: "I daresay he was right! I was bloody petrified." She admitted that it was only three years later that she started to feel comfortable on set. Morse temporarily left EastEnders in January 2016, after appearing on a recurring basis since July 2012. In June 2017, Morse expressed interest in returning to EastEnders as she felt that she never "officially left". In December 2017, it was announced that Morse would be returning to the show to play Mo. She returned in March 2018, after being re-introduced alongside Jean (Gillian Wright) and Kat Slater (Jessie Wallace). In February 2021, it was announced that Morse would be departing the soap again, with the character's exit scenes airing in June 2021. A year later, it was announced that Morse would reprise the role for a short stint later that year, with the character appearing in five episodes between August and September 2022. In February 2024, it was announced that Morse would reprising the role on a permanent basis, following a storyline accommodating the return of Freddie Slater (Bobby Brazier). She returned in May 2024.

Other work
In 2011, Morse made a return to film when she appeared as Aunt Queenie in the film Big Fat Gypsy Gangster, written, produced and starring Ricky Grover. In December 2012, Morse made her pantomime debut as the Fairy in a production of Jack and the Beanstalk.

In January 2012, Morse took part in the seventh series of ITV celebrity edition skating show Dancing on Ice. She was paired with Łukasz Różycki and they were the second couple to be eliminated.

Morse published her autobiography Just A Mo in 2013. In November 2013, Morse participated in the thirteenth series of I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! and was the second participant to be voted out of the series on 2 December.

In June 2016, it was announced that she would be taking part in the BBC series of Celebrity Masterchef. The series was won by Alexis Conran.

In 2019, Morse appeared as an BPRD employee in Hellboy. In 2021, it was announced that Morse was leaving EastEnders when her contract ended.

In 2021, Morse took part in the ITV series Strictly the Real Full Monty, where she was partnered with Homes Under the Hammer presenter Martin Roberts. Morse was praised by viewers when she revealed her breast cancer scars.

Personal life
Morse's stage name was suggested by the Italian actress Isabella Rossellini, who was dating Morse's brother, actor Gary Oldman. "Laila Morse" is an anagram of "mia sorella" which is Italian for "my sister". Morse was married to Gerald Bromfield from 1963 to 1970 and they had two children, Gerry and Tracy Bromfield. Morse married for a second time to James Bass in 1994, however this marriage ended in divorce nine years later.

Morse is a breast cancer survivor, having been diagnosed with the illness in May 2001 and recovered within a year. Morse revealed it had been Wendy Richard who had persuaded her to get a breast lump checked by doctors.

During the evening of 29 June 2008, Dano Sonnex and Nigel Farmer attempted to burgle Morse's home, just hours before they committed the New Cross double murder.

In August 2013, Morse was declared bankrupt.

Filmography

 * Television guest appearances
 * The Alan Titchmarsh Show (2008) – Guest
 * Come Dine with Me (2009) – Contestant
 * The Weakest Link (2010) – Contestant
 * Pointless Celebrities (2012) – Contestant
 * Sunday Side Up (29 December 2013) – Guest
 * The Chase: Celebrity Special (4 October 2014) – Contestant
 * Celebrity Antiques Road Trip (30 January 2024) – Guest

title: Laila Morse


text:
Talk:Hiking (sailing)

As far as I know hiking in this sense is only an American English useage. In the UK I have only ever heard it called 'leaning out' or 'sitting out'. Although I have sailed in the UK over 38 years the first I heard the term was on the film Stuart Little! Billlion 21:07, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Hmm, you may be right - I started this page, I'm American, and in typical USian form, I assumed everyone called it what I did... In my defense, a little googling finds "hiking" apparently used in an Australian context... But do feel free to put in the missing terminology, both here and as a redirect.  CDC   (talk)  18:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Nope - I'm a UK sailor and I would consider "Hiking" to be the most common term used for this. --Kragen2uk (talk) 02:52, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I can get many results with "leaning out" sailing search query D1gggg (talk) 14:22, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Hiking (sailing)


text:
List of parliamentary constituencies in Kent

The ceremonial county of Kent, (which includes the unitary authority of Medway), is divided into 18 parliamentary constituencies - one borough constituency and 17 county constituencies.

2024 boundary changes
See 2023 Periodic Review of Westminster constituencies for further details.

Following the abandonment of the Sixth Periodic Review (the 2018 review), the Boundary Commission for England formally launched the 2023 Review on 5 January 2021. Initial proposals were published on 8 June 2021 and, following two periods of public consultation, revised proposals were published on 8 November 2022. The final proposals were published on 28 June 2023.

The commission has proposed that an additional seat is created in Kent, with the formation of the constituency of Weald of Kent. As a consequence, Maidstone and the Weald, and Tonbridge and Malling would be renamed Maidstone and Malling, and Tonbridge respectively. Changes to North Thanet and South Thanet would result in them being replaced by Herne Bay and Sandwich, and East Thanet respectively. Although only subject to a very minor boundary change, Dover would revert to its previous name of Dover and Deal.

The following constituencies are proposed:

Containing electoral wards from Ashford Containing electoral wards from Canterbury Containing electoral wards from Dartford Containing electoral wards from Dover Containing electoral wards from Folkestone and Hythe Containing electoral wards from Gravesham Containing electoral wards from Maidstone Containing electoral wards from Medway Containing electoral wards from Sevenoaks Containing electoral wards from Swale Containing electoral wards from Thanet Containing electoral wards from Tonbridge and Malling Containing electoral wards from Tunbridge Wells
 * Ashford (part)
 * Weald of Kent (part)
 * Canterbury
 * Herne Bay and Sandwich (part)
 * Dartford
 * Sevenoaks (part)
 * Dover and Deal
 * Herne Bay and Sandwich (part)
 * Ashford (part)
 * Folkestone and Hythe
 * Gravesham
 * Faversham and Mid Kent (part)
 * Maidstone and Malling (part)
 * Weald of Kent (part)
 * Chatham and Aylesford (part)
 * Gillingham and Rainham
 * Rochester and Strood
 * Sevenoaks (part)
 * Tonbridge (part)
 * Faversham and Mid Kent (part)
 * Sittingbourne and Sheppey
 * East Thanet
 * Herne Bay and Sandwich (part)
 * Chatham and Aylesford (part)
 * Maidstone and Malling (part)
 * Tonbridge (part)
 * Tunbridge Wells
 * Weald of Kent (part)

Results history
Primary data source: House of Commons research briefing - General election results from 1918 to 2019

2019
The number of votes cast for each political party who fielded candidates in constituencies comprising Kent in the 2019 general election were as follows:

Percentage votes
11974 & 1979 - Liberal Party; 1983 & 1987 - SDP-Liberal Alliance

* Included in Other

Historic representation by party
A cell marked → (with a different colour background to the preceding cell) indicates that the previous MP continued to sit under a new party name.


text: Category:Subdivisions of Belarus

title: Category:Subdivisions of Belarus


text:
Terri

Terri is an alternative spelling of Terry. It is a feminine given name and is also a diminutive for Teresa.

Notable people with the name include:
 * Terri Allard (born 1962), American country/folk singer/songwriter
 * Terri S. Armstrong, American scientist
 * Terri Attwood (born 1959), English professor
 * Terri Austin (born 1955), American educator and politician
 * Terri Bennett, Irish cricketer
 * Terri Bjerre (born 1966), American musician
 * Terri Blackstock (born 1957), American Christian fiction writer
 * Terri Bonoff, American politician
 * Terri Brisbin, American historical romance author
 * Terri Brosius, American musician and voice actor
 * Terri Brown, American athlete
 * Terri Bryant, American politician
 * Terri Butler, Australian politician
 * Terri Lyne Carrington, jazz drummer, composer, and record producer
 * Terri Carver, American politician
 * Terri Cater, Australian sprinter and middle-distance runner
 * Terri Clark, Canadian country music artist
 * Terri Collins, American politician
 * Terri Conley, American social psychologist
 * Terri Conn, American actress
 * Terri Crawford, Canadian musician
 * Terri Dendy, American track and field athlete
 * Terri Dial (1949–2012), American banker
 * Terri Lynn Doss, American model and actress
 * Terri Doty, American voice actress, voice director, and ADR writer
 * Terri Dunning, British swimmer
 * Terri Dwyer, English actress
 * Terri-Rae Elmer, radio news announcer
 * Terri Farley, American writer
 * Terri Fields, American book writer and teacher
 * Terri H. Finkel, American pediatric rheumatologist and immunologist
 * Terri Garber, American actress
 * Terri Gibbs, American country music artist
 * Terri Grodzicker, American molecular geneticist and virologist
 * Terri Hall (1953–2007), American erotic actress
 * Terri Hardin, Muppet puppeteer, actress and stand-up comedian
 * Terri Hanauer, Canadian-American actress
 * Terri Crawford Hansen, American journalist
 * Terri Harper, British professional boxer
 * Terri Hawkes, Canadian actress
 * Terri Hemmert, American radio personality and musicologist
 * Terri Hendrix, contemporary folk singer-songwriter from Texas
 * Terri L. Hill, American politician
 * Terri Hoffman (1938–2015), American writer
 * Terri Hogue, American hydrologist
 * Terri Hollowell, American singer
 * Terri Hoyos, American actress
 * Terri Irwin, Australian, American-born naturalist, author, and owner of Australia Zoo at Beerwah, Queensland, Australia
 * Terri Ivens, American actress
 * Terri Janke, Wuthathi/Meriam Indigenous lawyer
 * Terri Jentz, American writer
 * Terri Kimball, American model and Playmate of the Month
 * Terri Kwan, Taiwanese actress, model, singer and author
 * Texas Terri (formerly Terri Laird), punk rock singer and songwriter from Texas
 * Terri Lynn Land, Michigan Secretary of State
 * Terri Leigh, Canadian television anchor
 * Terri McCormick, Wisconsin State Representative
 * Terri Meyette, Yaqui poet
 * Terri Edda Miller, American screenwriter, producer, and director
 * Terri Minsky, American television writer and producer
 * Terri Mitchell, American women's basketball coach
 * Terri Moss, American boxer
 * Terri Nunn, American singer and actress
 * Terri O'Connell, motorsports racing champion
 * Terri Paddock, American writer and arts journalist
 * Terri Poch, American bodybuilder and former professional wrestler
 * Terri Priest (1928–2014), American artist
 * Terri Proud, American politician
 * Terri Psiakis, Australian comedian and a presenter on radio and television
 * Terri Quaye, English musician
 * Terri Rachals, American nurse accused of murder
 * Terri Rogers (1937–1999), English ventriloquist and magician
 * Terri Roth, vice president of conservation and science at the Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical Garden
 * Terri Runnels, American professional wrestling manager, television host and occasional wrestler
 * Terri Russell, Australian cricket player
 * Terri Schiavo (1963–2005), diagnosed as being in a persistent vegetative state (PVS) for several years
 * Terri Schneider, American endurance athlete, motivational speaker, author, coach, and consultant
 * Terri Scott, education executive
 * Terri Sewell, American politician
 * Terri Seymour, British television presenter
 * Terri Sharp (1948–2015), American songwriter
 * Terri Stoneburner, American lawyer and judge
 * Terri Swearingen, American nurse
 * Terri Funk Sypolt, American politician
 * Terri Tatchell, Canadian screenwriter
 * Terri Te Tau, New Zealand contemporary artist and writer
 * Terri Willingham Thomas, American judge
 * Terri Thompson, American business journalist
 * Terri Treas, American actress, writer and director
 * Terri Utley, beauty queen and motivational speaker
 * Terri Vaughan, American insurance academic, regulator, and advisor
 * Terri J. Vaughn, American film and television actress
 * Terri Walker, English R&B and soul singer-songwriter
 * Terri Lynn Weaver, American politician
 * Terri Welles, American actress and adult model
 * Terri White, American actress and singer
 * Terri White (journalist), British journalist, editor and author
 * Terri L. White, mental health executive
 * Terri Williams-Flournoy, American women's basketball coach
 * Terri Windling, American editor, artist, essayist, and the author of books for both children and adults
 * Terri Witek, American poet
 * Terri Young, American pediatric ophthalmologist
 * Terri Zemaitis, American volleyball player

Fictional characters

 * Terri Alden, Three's Company
 * Terri Helmandollar, a character from Louds
 * Terri Joe, the fictional alter ego of American influencer Psyiconic
 * Terri Johnstone, River City
 * Terri McGreggor, Degrassi: The Next Generation
 * Terri Schuester, Glee
 * Terri Stivers, Homicide: Life on the Street
 * Terri Webber, General Hospital
 * Sherri and Terri, The Simpsons

People with the last name Terri

 * Salli Terri, a singer, arranger, recording artist, and songwriter

Tropical cyclones

 * Cyclone Terri (2001)

title: Terri


text:
User talk:Mseames

Welcome
Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

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Good luck!

Meelar (talk) 21:08, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks!! Mseames

Languages
Waaah! So many languages. I encourage you to develop your language and translations skills. I worked as a translator for 6 years. I love languages. I even wrote an article How to learn languages that unfortunately got shipped off to Siberia wikibooks. J' aime francais.--Jondel 23:53, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Huge demand for translations
Actually I 'm up to my ears in translation work, especially over at the Spanish wikipedia (es.wikipedia.org) and Japanese wikipedia. There are many famous writers, locations and place description that should be seen in the English and vice versa. Nice to meet another language lover.--Jondel 00:02, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nicole Wallace
I added your comments to the talk page. I'm also going to see if I can get you unblocked. I got massively attacked yesterday, so I blocked a bunch of usernames and IPs. Let me see what I can do for you. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 01:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

unblock request
If you are blocked you are only permitted to edit your own talk page, since you added the unblock template to your user page that suggests you aren't actually blocked. --pgk( talk ) 22:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

 * If I wasn't actually blocked, I wouldn't have gotten that message. If I'm not blocked, why I blocked to vote on the deletion pages?

Translation
Hello! A while ago you signed up to help translate articles from other Wikipedias at Translators available.

This page has since become obsolete and has been replaced by two userbox templates.

If you are still interested in translating, you may sign up again by using one of the following userboxes on your userpage :

'''

We hope to see you soon on Translation!

Userboxes and such...
Thanks for your admiration of my userpage...I did put a lot of work into, though I haven't been able to spend much time editing lately (and therefore have also neglected my userpage), but I hope to be able to get back to it soon. As to where you can find the userboxes and such, I will direct you to my response to iamzork, which is here. :D bcatt 03:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks! :) Mseames 06:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Help with Monica Meadows
Hello. I created a page a few years ago entitled "Monica Meadows" (an actress) and it seems to have disappeared. I checked my history and the deletion logs looking for it. Was it deleted? Mseames 06:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, it went through a deletion debate at AfD, here. --Sopoforic 06:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the help. It was one of the first ever articles I created and I figured it was deleted. Certainly took me long enough to notice! :)

Your recent edits
Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either: This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is necessary to allow other editors to easily see who wrote what and when.
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Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 03:41, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

title: User talk:Mseames


text:
User:Maw

I'm Michael, an expatriate gringo living in Mexico City.

I speak English and have a reasonable command of Spanish.

It's a pet peeve of mine when people write "counts with" when "has" would be correct. I've corrected a number of these errors en masse, the corrections initially counting with having rude edit summaries.

es:User:Miguel Biólogo

title: User:Maw


text:
User talk:Maw

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

Here are some tips to help you get started:

 * To sign your posts (on talk pages, for example) use the '~' symbol. To insert just your name, type ~~~ (3 tildes), or, to insert your name and timestamp, use ~~~~ (4 tildes).
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Good luck!

Meelar (talk) 21:10, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Sources required
As a self-professed Wikipedian from Mexico, please help to find sources for in order to make a verifiable encyclopaedia article about the concept. See chav for how such articles should be sourced. Uncle G 12:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

List of iconic drinkers
FYI, Charles Bukowski is now added to List of iconic drinkers. K72ndst 03:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

About the correction in the Military of Peru article
This comment:

You can't literally translate "contar con" to English. I'm not joking. Please stop.

It was absolutely unnecessary, and that text is not mine. But thanks anyway for the correction.

Greetings.Cloudaoc 22:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Huh?
Who said *you* wrote "counts with"? Maw 14:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Are you writing to yourself? Anyways, I did not mean to change it back to counts with in Colegio San José but I inadvertently did when trying to revert some vandalism. I will be more careful. -- Char leen mer ced  Talk  00:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:05, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Maw


text:
User talk:CLaneRox

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

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Meelar (talk) 21:10, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:CLaneRox


text:
User talk:Changelingsoldier

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

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 * Try the Tutorial, and feel free to experiment in the test area.
 * If you need help, post a question at the Help Desk
 * Follow the Simplified Ruleset
 * Eventually, you might want to read the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines.
 * Remember Neutral point of view
 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Good luck!

Meelar (talk) 21:10, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Suicide Article
Adam/Changeling: Thanks for your comments. I really feel that there is a grave danger that this whole "neutral encyclopedia thing" may get out of hand--there are limits! The most tragic consequence: the loss of life, all due to an immature fantasy about AN ONLINE ENCYCLOPEDIA! I love this place, but not at the expense of life. ~ Dpr

Reponse
Got a response for you on my talk page :) --RN 09:37, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Changelingsoldier


text:
Talk:Late collision

Causes
What are the causes of late collisions?

- usually over 100 meter runs that have enough traffic to create a collision... the collision detection will be indicated but due to the length of the run will be rec'd late after waiting to hear about it and after the next packet(s) are sent.

- the question i have about late collisions though is, "will putting a switched hub on both sides of a run over 100 meters (say 400 meters), eliminate all collision and thus let you safely break the 100 meter rule?"

Duplex mismatch
Interestingly the full/half duplex mismatch cause listed on the page is flatly contradicted by Cisco's ICND1 study materials, which state that "Incorrect duplex settings do not cause late collisions." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.86.174 (talk) 19:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Incorrect duplex settings will cause a late collision from the perspective of the half duplex end of the link because the full duplex end thinks it can transmit at any time. Plugwash (talk) 14:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Late collision


text:
West Atlantic UK

West Atlantic UK Limited, formerly Atlantic Airlines Ltd is a British cargo airline based at East Midlands Airport. It operates contract and ad hoc cargo flights worldwide, especially within Europe as part of the West Atlantic Group. The company's fleet is composed of Boeing 737 and ATR72 aircraft. The airline specialises in the transport of dangerous goods and radioactive products and other specialist aerial work, including oil spill response, dispersant spraying and icing trials. The prime activity of the business is the supply and operating of aircraft to night-time freight integrators and consolidators and the operation of ad hoc air charters on behalf of other airlines, freight brokers and forwarders. Atlantic Airlines merged with the Swedish airline "West Air Europe" in 2008 to establish the West Atlantic Group.

West Atlantic UK Ltd holds an EU Ops Air Operators Certificate with the United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority and a Type A Operating Licence, permitting it to carry cargo and mail on aircraft.

History
The airline was established in 1994. It was formed as part of the Air Atlantique Group of Companies to specialise in the supply of contract and ad hoc cargo services. Since July 2001 West Atlantic UK (Formerly Atlantic Airlines) has traded independently and continues to broaden its product range and capability through the marketing of its Air Operators Certificate (AOC).

The company Atlantic Airlines Limited was established in March 2001 when the management performed a buy-in to the trading company. A full management buy-out was achieved on 28 May 2004 when the same management purchased all the assets of the business including aircraft, spares, engines etc.

In January 2006, Atlantic acquired the first of an order for 5 BAe ATP freighter aircraft.

In February 2007, Atlantic Airlines signed an agreement with BAE Systems Regional Aircraft to long-term lease a further 6 BAe ATP freighters bringing the total orders to 11.

In October 2008, it was announced that the airline would merge with West Air Sweden to form a new airline called West Atlantic with its headquarters in Sweden.

On 8 December 2009, Atlantic Airlines' biggest base, Coventry Airport, was closed for financial reasons, causing Atlantic Airlines to cease all cargo flights to and from the airport. Atlantic Airlines moved all Coventry flights to Birmingham on a temporary basis as a result. The airline recommenced operations out of Coventry when it reopened after it was bought by Sir Peter Rigby.

On 27 April 2013, Atlantic Airlines retired the last Lockheed L188 Electra from its fleet in cargo service. Atlantic Airlines was the last operator of the type outside of Canada. Subsequently, most of the fleet was sold and transferred to Buffalo Airways in Canada.

In 2015 Atlantic Airline transferred its ATP fleet to the West Atlantic group Swedish AOC to focus on further Boeing 737 acquisitions.

In June 2017 West Atlantic announced that it would be the launch customer and first operator of the Boeing 737-800BCF (Boeing converted Freighter).

In November 2017, following the cease of operations from Coventry Airport, It set up new airline offices to the south of Coventry Airport and relocated its Operational and Line Maintenance Control Centre to East Midlands Airport. The airline leased space inside Hangar 29 at East Midlands Airport to provide maintenance facilities for their aircraft.

On 1 November 2017 Atlantic Airlines officially changed its name to West Atlantic UK Limited.

In November 2020 West Atlantic added its first ATR72 to its fleet from sister airline Swiftair to operate between East Midlands Airport and Guernsey Airport for DHL Air UK.

By September 2022, West Atlantic had phased out the BAe ATP from its UK network, following the addition of more ATR 72s to their fleet.

Destinations
West Atlantic UK serves daily the following destinations: • Crown Dependencies

• *Jersey - Jersey Airport

• *Guernsey - Guernsey Airport

• United Kingdom

• *England

• **East Midlands - East Midlands Airport

• **Exeter - Exeter Airport

• **London - London Stansted Airport

• *Northern Ireland

• **Belfast International

• *Scotland

• **Aberdeen - Aberdeen Airport

• **Edinburgh - Edinburgh Airport

• **Glasgow - Glasgow Prestwick Airport (Seasonal)

Current Fleet
As of February 2024, the West Atlantic UK fleet consists of the following aircraft:

Former Fleet
West Atlantic UK has previously operated the following aircraft:

 * British Aerospace ATP-F

Accidents and incidents

 * On 19 January 2021, a West Atlantic Boeing 737-400 freighter suffered a very hard landing at Exeter Airport, causing many creases in the fuselage. The aircraft was written off and scrapped on-site

title: West Atlantic UK


text:
Sandwich board

A sandwich board is a type of advertisement tool composed of two boards with a message or graphic on it and being either carried by a person, with one board in front and one behind in a triangle shape, hinged along the top, creating a "sandwich" effect; or set up next to a store advertising its goods. In this way, the advertising message can be read on both sides interchangeably.

History
The increased competition for poster space and the inconveniences of an advertising tax led the advertisers to generate a type of advertisement that moves a handy sales tool to promote sales. The term "sandwich man" was coined by Charles Dickens. He described these advertisers as "a piece of human flesh between two slices of paste board". Sandwich boards were most popular in the 19th century, and have largely been supplanted by billboards, which are more effective in advertising to passers-by who are now likely to be in automobiles, rather than traveling by foot.

However, they are still frequently to be seen on major shopping streets such as Oxford Street, London; Champs Élysées, Paris, and 42nd Street, New York City, where they are used to advertise offers from particular stores most often in adjacent side-streets.

Types
There are generally two types of sandwich boards.

Carried version
The carried version is usually attached to straps acting as suspenders, allowing the person wearing the boards to carry the weight on his or her shoulders and keeping the boards balanced on the wearer. The wearer might also pass out flyers or shout advertising slogans. These sandwich men are seen parading in a queue cladded in a specific costume. They were gorgeously dressed at the beginning but later they were portrayed wearing shabby clothes in many illustrations that failed to attract consumers attention. In many cities of the world these type of advertisements are considered illegal and is a punishable offence. According to the London Hackney Carriage Act 1853 (16 & 17 Vict. c. 33) and section 9 of the Metropolitan Streets Act 1867 (30 & 31 Vict. c. 134), it is not lawful for any person to carry any picture, placard, notice, or advertisement, on any carriage or on horseback or on foot except those which are approved of by the Commissioner of Police.

A-board
Another is called "A-board" which is kept next to the stores, on public transport grounds, such as sidewalks or pedestrian zones to draw the attention of the customers passing by. These A-boards resemble the shape of letter A. In some modern A-boards the conventional two boards have been replaced by a single board hanging within the frame. A-boards are most typically deployed in busy pedestrian areas to advertise businesses. Advertising the business website or social media page on these boards helps the business get recognized locally as well as internationally. This kind of advertising is most popular among bars and restaurants. For some small businesses it is the main type of advertising.

Materials used
Many different types materials are used to make these boards. The carried type is generally made up of light materials like cardboard or paperboard and yarn to hang it to the shoulders.

The conventional types of A-boards are traditionally made with any rigid flat material such as fibre board, chip board, wood, plyboard or MDF. Modern A-boards are made with plastic, steel or aluminum and in some of them the hinges are made with leather. Cheaper A-boards are made with wood-frame with cloth nailed upon and printed with screen-print or painted by hand. Chalkboards are also used as a A-board material, with the advertisement messages written by hand.

There are advantages and disadvantages to using different materials. Wooden frames can be damaged by termites. Plastic materials like PVC become fragile with weather and polyethylene sandwich boards get warped in varying temperatures which causes bowing or dishing of the surface, which distorts the message or graphic printed on it. Phthalates used as plasticizers and lead used for workability and stability in PVC contribute to health complications. Moreover printing on plastic materials which needs a special type of ink which is costly. Chalkboard A-boards allow for messages to be easily replaced, but they must be written by hand, and the messages are susceptible to rain. Aluminum or steel frames are comparatively durable, but vulnerable to strong winds and bad weather conditions, especially rain, and wear out over time. On windier days sandbags are sometimes hung under the board as a counterweight which gives balance and stability. Colors often fade away after prolonged exposure to the sun. The use of different materials in a single object makes these boards unsuitable for recycling.

title: Sandwich board


text:
People's Party of the Russian Federation

The People's Party of the Russian Federation (Народная партия Российской Федерации; НПРФ; Narodnaya partiya Rossiyskoy Federatsii, NPRF) was a centrist political party in Russia. The leader of the party was Gennady Raikov.

History
Before official registration of the People's Party on 29 September 2001, the "People's Deputy" group (депутатская группа «Народный депутат») existed in the 3rd State Duma. It included 58 deputies. Most of them later became members of the People's Party of the Russian Federation. The "People's Deputy" consisted of independent members of the State Duma elected exclusively in single-mandate constituencies. The faction supported the initiatives of the new President of Russia Vladimir Putin.

At the 2003 parliamentary election which saw the election of the fourth convocation of the State Duma, the party had won 1.2% of the popular vote and 16 out of 450 seats. Most deputies were elected in single mandate districts and later joined United Russia faction.

The People's Party joined A Just Russia on 14 April 2007.


text:
Maplin Sands

The Maplin Sands are mudflats on the northern bank of the Thames estuary, off Foulness Island, near Southend-on-Sea in Essex, England, though they actually lie within the neighbouring borough of Rochford. They form a part of the Essex Estuaries Special Area of Conservation due to their value for nature conservation, with a large colony of dwarf eelgrass (Zostera noltei) and associated animal communities.

To the northeast, the Maplin sands are contiguous with the Foulness sands, which are bordered to the north by the Whitaker Channel; the seaward continuation of the River Crouch. To the south runs the Swin Channel.

History
Maplin Sands is crossed by the ancient trackway known as The Broomway.

A screw-pile lighthouse was built on the sands in 1838 by Messrs. Mitchel and Sons (sic- more often Mitchell and Sons) on the recommendation of James Walker of Trinity House. It was the first screwpile lighthouse ever to be designed. Although construction of the Maplin Sands Light had started before, the Wyre Light (Fleetwood) was completed first, as it was built in a much shorter period of time. Excessive scouring of the Thames by the strength and direction of the tidal streams caused the lighthouse to become undermined and it was completely swept away in 1932.

In the later part of the 19th century John I. Thornycroft & Company and Yarrow Shipbuilders used the sands for the measured mile speed trials of their destroyers. The shallow waters resulted in a flow of water that could add up to a knot to the ship's speed. When the Admiralty found out they required that all future trials be carried out in deep water.

Following the report of the 1968 Roskill Commission, in 1973 plans were proposed and approved for a third airport for London, the Thames Estuary Airport, but were abandoned in 1974 in the wake of the 1973 oil crisis. The project would also have included a deep-water harbour suitable for the container ships then coming into use, a high-speed rail link to London, and a new town for the accommodation of the thousands of workers who would be required.

The Maplin Sands were at that time, and remain, a military testing ground belonging to the Ministry of Defence, as is Foulness Island.

title: Maplin Sands


text:
Arzach

Arzach is a comic book collection of four wordless short stories by artist/author Jean 'Moebius' Giraud, which were originally published in the French sci-fi/fantasy comics magazine Métal Hurlant. The stories follow Arzach, a silent warrior who rides a pterodactyl-like creature through a strange, desolate landscape. The imagery and situations in Arzach are often compared to dreams or the subconscious. These stories had an enormous impact on the French comics industry, and the Arzach character is still among Moebius' most famous creations. It can be defined as a pantomime comic, fantasy comics or an experimental comic.

The spelling of the title, originally Arzach, was changed in each of the original short stories.

Moebius later revisited the character with a story called The Legend of Arzach. This later story contains dialogue, and it ties the Arzach stories into a previously unrelated Moebius story called The Detour.

Moebius' 2010 book Arzak: L'Arpenteur (Arzak: The Surveyor) was the first of a planned trilogy to explore the origin of the character. However, with the death of Jean Giraud in March 2012, this vision was never realised.

Legacy
Arzach is credited as the inspiration for the final sequence, "Taarna", of the animated film Heavy Metal (1981).

Moebius' Arzach is a novel by Jean-Marc and Randy Lofficier, published by iBOOKS in August 2000. The book features a cover and inside illustrations by Moebius, and a map by J.O. Ladronn. The first half of the book is a novelisation of several Arzach stories. The second half recursively introduces John Gerard (a thinly disguised Jean Giraud) and family into the world of Arzach. A brief essay on the publishing history of Arzach concludes the book.

Arzach was one of Panzer Dragoon's major artistic influences. Jean Giraud even contributed in the creative process of Team Andromeda's game with original artwork.

Arzach inspired Hayao Miyazaki and he said in an interview that he directed Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind under Moebius' influence.

title: Arzach


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Extinctionism

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete. — Xezbeth 20:00, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Extinctionism née Extinctionist
Delete. dictdef at best Wikibofh 21:13, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Wikipedia is not a dictionary, but Wiktionary is. —Kjammer 22:52, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Google Web results indicates that there may be a philosophy that is described as extinctionism, albeit that the definition here does not match how others describe it: promotion of "the extinction of all life", the belief that "we need to work for the end of the human race". There are strong indications that this isn't a real philosophical doctrine propounded by actual people, however.  As far as I can see from a quick search, this is at the very best another political epithet, a name-calling label applied by critics and never (with the exception of satirists) claimed by adherents, and the same would thus apply as at Votes for deletion/Denialist. Uncle G 04:08, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
 * delete because it's too short to be useful Mozzerati 17:34, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)
 * Delete. Neologism.mikka (t) 21:28, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. I think this was created to help justify/promote Church of Reality, along with positive evolution and doubt based. Paul August ☎ 21:31, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * This definition (as opposed to the ones given above) almost certainly was. However, one of the more interesting things that comes up in a Google Web search is someone telling Marc Perkel that he didn't invent the word "Extinctionist" because it had already been invented by someone else. Uncle G 05:30, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .


text:
List of prime ministers of São Tomé and Príncipe

This article lists the prime ministers of São Tomé and Príncipe, an island country in the Gulf of Guinea off the western equatorial coast of Central Africa, since the establishment of the office of prime minister of Portuguese São Tomé and Príncipe in 1974. Leonel Mário d'Alva was the first person to hold the office, taking effect on 21 December 1974. The incumbent is Patrice Trovoada, having taken office on 11 November 2022.

List of officeholders
{{legend||Movement for the Liberation of São Tomé and Príncipe – Social Democratic Party (MLSTP–PSD)|border=1px solid #aaa}} {{legend||Democratic Convergence Party (PCD)|border=1px solid #AAAAAA}} {{legend||Independent Democratic Action (ADI)|border=1px solid #aaa}} {{legend||Force for Change Democratic Movement – Liberal Party (MDFM–PL)|border=1px solid #aaa}} {{Legend||Union of Democrats for Citizenship and Development (UDD)|border=1px solid #aaa}}
 * Political parties


text: Talk:Chartering

title: Talk:Chartering


text:
Talk:List of countries where United Nations peacekeepers are currently deployed

Absent flags
Why no flags for Kosovo (Flag of Kosovo - hmm, a redlink - and Flag of Serbia?), Golan Heights (Flag of Israel and Flag of Syria?) or Middle East (where are the peacekeepers anyway?) ? -- ALoan (Talk) 11:23, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The Middle East one appears to be mostly administrative, lending support to others in the area, so I don't think it really is centered in any conflict. Considering that no one really knows which of three countries Golan Heights is part of, I am not sure how a flag would work. I searched for a flag of Kosovo, but couldn't find one (though I can't believe there isn't one). Again, considering the conflict, I thought a Serbia flag for Kosovo would be inappropriate. Blanks seemed to be the best option, and understandable, since these are the three non-countries. --Dmcdevit 20:49, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * OK - Middle East seems general; Kosovo doesn't seem to have a flag (I guess it is not the first thing on the list...); but surely Golan Heights can have the three nations that claim the heights? -- ALoan (Talk) 22:15, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Have done so, how's it look? --Dmcdevit 22:34, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Great - looks fine to me. I wonder what others think.  It would still be nice to find something appropriate to add for the other two (particularly Kosovo). -- ALoan (Talk) 02:35, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I think I actually solved the Kosovo flag. Albania's flag is used for the Albanian majority, Serbia's for the Serb minority. For the Middle East, all I could think of to put was a map. Like it? --Dmcdevit 03:04, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Excellent - good idea. Perfect :) -- ALoan (Talk) 00:06, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Someone seems to have made the necessary changes anyway, but for the record, of course, the 'country where peacekeepers are deployed' in the case of Kosovo is Serbia, so that would be the correct flag. (See Constitutional status of Kosovo). DSuser 17:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Cyprus
Given the nature of the dispute which has led to peacekeepers being there, would it also be appropriate to show the flag of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus along with Cyprus? --OpenToppedBus - My Talk June 28, 2005 14:58 (UTC)

 * Hmm - not showing the flag is probably POV for Turkish Cypriots; showing the flag is probably POV for Greek Cypriots. Is there a middle ground?  Don't show either flag?  Add a footnote or two?-- ALoan (Talk) 28 June 2005 18:34 (UTC)
 * From Cyprus: "Almost all foreign governments and the United Nations recognise the sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus [Greek] over the whole island of Cyprus." In the context of this article (UN deployment), I don't think it's POV to keep it how it is. Also, I would point out that the flags are merely illustrative and don't actually play a large part, content-wise, in the article. If it were about the flags, then I would be more worried. Sound reasonable? --Dmcdevit 28 June 2005 20:54 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. OpenToppedBus - My Talk June 29, 2005 09:37 (UTC)

List of countries where UN peacekeepers were deployed
It would be useful to have an additional section (or a link to a sister article) where once the peacekeepers are withdrawn they are listed. There have not been so many UN missions that this list would be difficult to maintain. Philip Baird Shearer 1 July 2005 09:33 (UTC)

 * How many UN peacekeeping missions have ended already? I have added a redlinked List of countries where UN peacekeepers were deployed so please feel free to write the article! -- ALoan (Talk) 1 July 2005 11:02 (UTC)
 * Just guessing, but there might be upwards of 50. Anywy, great idea, and I'll get on it. But, I like the title of just list of UN peacekeeping missions better (it would have all of them). --Dmcdevit 1 July 2005 20:15 (UTC)
 * And apparently we each just created our own without knowing it! I've done substantial work on list of UN peacekeeping missions, but is a big project. Might want to take a look. --Dmcdevit 3 July 2005 08:32 (UTC)
 * (Thanks for the message on my talk page too.) Sorry - having created the redlink, I thought I ought to put something in it, so just copied over the structure from this article.  You have done a good job on filling out your new article with some content - but now I wonder whether we actually need this list, given the amount of duplication between your new list and this one...  -- ALoan (Talk) 4 July 2005 16:30 (UTC)
 * Some Irish when asked directions if it is difficult to explain will say "if you want to go there I would not start from here".
 * If loosing the history of this article acceptable, then move this talk page to the new article "List UN peacekeeping missions" and make this article a redirect.
 * copy the contents of "Completed missions" from "List of UN peacekeeping missions" to "List of countries where UN peacekeepers were deployed" and delete (VfD) "List of UN peacekeeping missions" and keep two articles.
 * copy contents of "Completed missions" from "List of UN peacekeeping missions" to "List of countries where UN peacekeepers were deployed", move "List of countries where UN peacekeepers are currently deployed" to "List of UN peacekeeping missions", merge in contents of "List of countries where UN peacekeepers were deployed".
 * For a simple life I would go with 1. (voting on WP:RM and WP:VFD can cause complications) but I have not contributed to this page and those who have may wish to have their contributions recorded in the history of the page. Philip Baird Shearer 5 July 2005 09:19 (UTC)
 * Actually, though you may all think I'm biased for having been a major contributor to both, I see the value in separate articles. This list is by country, meaning it's alphabetical and for readers looking for an overview of all the missions currently. The other one, being just a list of missions, is intended (though I have yet to do it, since I was saving ugly formatting for last) to be sorted by date. So it will be easier to get an idea of trends, whereas this one is more to get an idea of geography. And since this one is essentially a list of countries by mission, whereas the other one is simply a list of missions, that one will have the mission name on the left, where this one has country name (and it will eventually have end dates too, not just beginnings). So, in the end, because of formatting, there will be considerably less duplication. And I don't really think that a little duplication of content for a different format for navigation is a big deal. It is kind of common too (like the too list of popes FLs, with different presentations). I think this makes sense, right? --Dmcdevit July 5, 2005 09:37 (UTC)

 * Oh good - as I said above, I thought there was substantial overlap. However, if the proposal is to have two (current missions and old missions) sorted by country and another (all missions) sorted by date, then excellent.  You are doing a great job, so I'll leave you to it. -- ALoan (Talk) 5 July 2005 11:54 (UTC)

East Timor
Should UNMISET be listed on this page or is it not suitable? Philip Baird Shearer 2 July 2005 20:30 (UTC)
 * From the UN website: "UNMISET successfully completed its mandate on 20 May 2005." So that's why, it's not current. --Dmcdevit 2 July 2005 20:37 (UTC)

There is a new mission: Integrated Mission in Timor-Leste (UNMIT). – Zntrip 21:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure whether it's a peacekeeping mission or rather only a *police* mission... — Nightst a  llion  (?) 13:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Look here, it seems to be a new mission, but no troops have been sent yet. – Zntrip 03:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing this to my attention (twice, actually, thanks!), I've amended the respective articles. :) — Nightst a  llion  (?) 17:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

ISAF in Afghanistan
Why that isn't classified as a peace-keeping operation? --Pudeo (Talk) 13:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Redundant
O, Dmcdevit Mighty, who goes against the vote at Featured list removal candidates/List of countries where United Nations peacekeepers are currently deployed, have you even checked where the redirect goes? The other article is 100% the same. Wikipedia does not make new articles by copypasting a part of another article without any changes. I can't understand why anyone would like to keep this article. Every byte is same as in the other one, this has no use. It's easier to edit one article anyway. --Pudeo⺮ 12:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You can see the reason this article was created earlier in this talk page. You don't seem to have bothered, or bothered to actually check it they are "copypasted," as that is false. You haven't offered anything except a handful of people that wanted to delist it from FLC as a reason for removing the article entirely. Incivility isn't helping, nor is calling the article spam. Dmcdevit·t 21:26, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * In fact the two articles were indentical (the main text was exactly the same, except saying "where peace keepers are currently deployed"). Even the images were in exact same positions. True, the templates weren't exactly the same because List of United Nations peacekeeping missions had been updated to include the website, which is better of course. Would you like to create List of countries where United Nations peacekeepers were deployed? I wouldn't. That information can be found in the main article, there's no point creating new lists for subsections like that (unless it grows really big). --Pudeo⺮ 09:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean List of countries where UN peacekeepers were deployed? That was the original article, but I suppose you didn't bother to actually read the short discussion above like I pointed out. Again, please actually look at things before you make these claims that are patently false, and demonstrably so. One is a list of missions by date, and another is a list of countries alphabetically. I find it ironic that I made both these lists, (this one first, mind you) by recommendation after it went to FLC, and now I am being accused of "creating new lists for subsections." I'm sure there is something useful you could be writing about (most of those missions are stubs!) to help the project, rather than needlessly debating this. Dmcdevit·t 22:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe maybe, but what's exactly the problem with the redirect as it redirects to the right subsection? It has the same template, same information. I just don't get the splitting of this. --Pudeo⺮ 20:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's hardly an argument for removing it. It has struck myself and others as valuable to have a list of countries where there are peacekeepers operating currently, as well as the general list with all historical missions. I'm not sure how else to put it. Dmcdevit·t 02:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well yay then, +1 article count for Wikipedia. You win, practicality loses. --Pudeo⺮ 22:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Delay-action bomb

Untitled
This might be better called Delayed-action bomb. (RJP 21:16, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC))

title: Talk:Delay-action bomb


text: Talk:Children's theater

title: Talk:Children's theater


text:
Talk:The Incoherence of the Philosophers

[Untitled]
The Incoherence of the Philosophers was not directed against the Mutzlities whose by the 11th century, when the book was written, was already in recession. The book is mainly directed against Islamic neoplatonism. --Vonaurum 21:18, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

can i ask why 'the incoherence of the incoherence' by Ibn Rushd redirects to this page, they arent the same text, 'the incoherence of the incoherence was a reply to the incoherence of the philosophers and should have its own page.

When was this book written?
Need a date in here someplace. 66.32.141.79 04:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

It is interesting to compare the impact of Saint Augustin to Western Europe to that of Al Ghazali in Islam. It is ironic that the Islamic philosophers rescued the damaged done in the West by St. Augustin thoughts, through Maimonides/Saint Thomas/Scholasticism/Reform/Enlightment while Islam still dwells in the 12th century disputations. Jmcribeiro (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 03:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That is pure orientalist crap Jmcribeiro. Not only has the "shutting gates of ijihtad" myth been debunked by today's scholarship, you forgot to have read the end of the page :

"Far from stifling philosophy in the Muslim world, the tahafut has piqued Muslim interest in philosophy: jurists are no longer afraid to study the works of Avicenna and al-Farabi as is evident in the works of Averroes and Fakhr al-Din al-Razi."

As well as this link http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/al-ghazali/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.205.162 (talk) 05:15, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

The incoherence of the legacy section!
Contributors, including me, can't seem to agree whether this book stifled or stimulated Islamic thought in the Middle Ages. I believe the former, and have offered citations and examples. Over the past several months, these have been radically altered or removed. I don't wish to get into an edit war over this, so I would like interested contributors to come up with a way to illustrate the enduring ambivalence over this book's influence. The Sanity Inspector (talk) 21:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

 * It's hard to find the citations you've been using for this in among the page's history. Could you repeat them here to make them easier for people to look at? Many thanks. —Syncategoremata (talk) 21:35, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Continued discussion in the Muslim World
Some claims are done in this section of the article without any sources. Methinkest this is just some unfounded POV-counterspin added by some non-objective individual and feel most like removing it right away. I might just do that.... Fedor (talk) 09:28, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Why this is part of Avicenna series?
I still don't get that this book is series of Avicenna works. As Prof. Marmura said Al-Ghazali only refutes Greek's metaphysical element of muslim philosophers; even Al-Ghazali wrote Miyar al-Ilm fi Fan al-Mantiq (Criterion of Knowledge in the Art of Logic) that follows exposition of Avicenna's Logic as an appendix to the Tahāfut. Lokamaya (talk) 12:03, 11 May 2019 (UTC)