text:
Talk:Gasoline/Archive 1

Lead, additives, environmental effects
The environmental effects of lead in gasoline are extremely difficult to measure and have not been measured in real world settings. Theory suggests that there should be some bad effects, but it is very unclear if these should be called "major". There has been and still is some controversy about this.
 * off the top of my head, lead is emitted along with the exhaust gas as volatile halides as well as particulate oxides. It is a proven neurotoxic, especially in children.--134.121.3.150 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Also lead was used in high performance military gasoline during WW2. I'm not sure if it might be even older than that. "1960s" is certainly too late for its introduction.

The form of lead used in gasoline is tetra-ethyl lead.

There are several lead substitutes used in modern lead-free gasoline:

dimethyl sulfur: smells horrible. Slightly corrosive to engines. Not sure if it is dangerous. This was used in small quantities back to the 1930s. The amount used is now much higher in some countries where cheap high octane gasoline without lead is desired.
 * is there a reference on this useage? sulfur heterocompounds are usually inherited from the crude oil as mercaptanes, dialkylsulfides and disulfides. While they can act as radical traps (anti-knocking), their effect on the octane number is weak. Following burning in the engine, toxic sulfur oxides generally denoted as SO_x are formed.--134.121.3.150 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

aromatic hydrocarbons (especially benzene, toluene, xylene): Really seriously poisonous and carcinogenic. Much more dangerous than lead. Slightly corrosive to some engine parts. Civilised countries limit these by law to a very small percentage. These are present to some extent in crude oil, and small quantities have always been present in gasoline.
 * commercial, or pump, gasoline is actually a blend of several fractions, or components, originating both from the primary processing (distillation) and from the secondary processing (which includes conversion.) Most of the aromatics are added as a fraction called reformate, which is obtained in the catalytic reforming (a.k.a. platforming) process. Aromatics have a very good octane rating, however, they tend to generate increased carbon particulates in the exhaust (black smoke), and the vapors emitted are carcinogenic, as mentioned.--134.121.3.150 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

branched hydrocarbons: comparitively safe, but they add significantly to the cost, given the large quantities needed.
 * again, i think this needs to be clarified: pump gasoline is a blend of fractions. On the one hand we have the so-called straight-run gasoline, which is a product of distillation from the crude oil, and inherits the chemical profile of the crude blend. On the other hand we have the commercial gasoline blend(s) which has to conform to commercial standards (octane number, point of crystallization, polymer formation potential, moisture content, acidity, vapor pressure) as well as to regulatory standards (emissions by evaporation, sulfur content, total aromatics, benzene, total oxygenates). The lists in parantheses are not exhaustive. The different blends are made up of similar components and additives in different proportions optimized to yield the desired properties. The blending process is half art half empirical science.--134.121.3.150 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Oxygenates are other high-octane components of gasoline that allowed the complete phase-out of lead. They include alcohols and ethers. Methanol is -I think- widely used, although exposure to vapors and liquid can cause irreversible blindness. MTBE (methyl-tert-butyl-ether) is notorious in that shortly after virtually all refiners invested in plants, the ether was found to easily contaminate aquifers and bans were considered in California and Connecticut. Don't have current information on this to hand.--134.121.3.150 18:00, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * MMT (Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl if you must know) is used in Canada (for a long time) and Australia (recently) to boost octane...also helps old cars designed for leaded fuel to run on unleaded fuel without need for additives to prevent valve stem problems. It's the Manganese that has the effect.

--GPoss 10:21, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

''Someone should write something about Ignacy Łukasiewicz. He discovered the paraffin lamp and opened the world's first petroleum refinery in 1856.'' []

Q&A's
--QUESTION What is the generated heat (J/kg) obtained by burning gasoline?

--ANSWER Fuel     kJ/g     kwh/kg Kerosene 48       15.5 Gasoline 50 Diesel   45       15.5

--QUESTION What is the freezing point of gasoline?
 * Being a mixture of various components, gasoline does not have a well-defined freezing point. Depending on the region where a blend is sold, the so-called crystallization point, or clouding point, should be lower than the expected minimum temperature in that specific region. Complete freezing occurs at a much lower temperature. Will return with some numbers soon.--Unconcerned 08:52, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

From PNA/Chemicals

 * Petrol has received some anonymous additions correcting previous information which I can't check but appear not to be a patent nonsense. Anyway, the are written in the parenthetical polemics style
 * (This is not true, as german aviation engines were of the direct fuel injection type and used emergency methanol-water and nitrous-oxide injection ...
 * (this historical "issue" is based on a very common misapprehension about wartime fuel octane numbers. ...
 * As someone has already pointed out ...

so it would need proper wikification/rewrite anyway. --Malyctenar 15:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Units
Could we please have this in SI units instead of 40 hogsheads to the rod units?

 * As long as the article has that weird name, the weird units look pretty normal to me! The problem is, the people who use those units don't understand them, and the people who don't use those units don't understand them either. So nobody can figure out how to convert them to SI units. Okay, maybe a couple of us could; I've got that hodsheads to the rod stuff down pat, 40.00 hogsheads to the rod is 1.897 m², round off that result according to how precise your "40" is.  (One problem, of course, is that people don't use the SI units for fuel consumption or fuel economy; a typical automobile fuel consumption is in the 50 to 100 µm² range, however, so 40 hogsheads to the rod takes an enormous amount of fuel.) Gene Nygaard 09:07, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * BTW, that means, of course, that Grandpa Simpson's vehicle would probably work fine if he had a two square meter (in cross-section) trough of fuel along the road from which he could suck up his fuel. Gene Nygaard 09:20, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Odd choice...
Why does it have this in the overview paragraph? "The United States use 360 million US liquid gallons (1.36 billion litres) of gasoline each day."

It seems as though it has been stuck in there as a quick shot against the US. I'm canadian, but i think it maked the entire paragraph flow oddly. any other opinions? SECProto 19:28, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

 * It does appear awkward, a better value would be the maount used in the world perahps with a couple of examples of vey high and low (per capita?) users. I suspect it was in there as an exmaple when the article was first written without an international flavour. GraemeLeggett 20:30, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Good idea. - Omegatron 20:40, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Octane of gasoline
The acticle overall is not that clear re octane rating for gasoline. In the US what you see on the pump when is says "87 octane" is actually not the RON (Research Octane Number) but an average of the RON and the MON (Motor Octane Number). Typical gasoline has a difference (called the sensitivity) between RON and MON of around 10: so in theUSA 87 octane is typically 92 RON, 82 MON.

Elsewhere in the world (gEurpoe, Asia, Aust: not sure about other places such as Latin America) what is normally quoted is just the RON (there will often be a separte specification for MON, but the general public does not tend to worry about it).

Question is: is this all too techy for wikipedia or should I go ahead and revise.

Also: re the debate re petrol and gasoline: within the industry people refer to "gasoline" all over the world: but the general public uses petrol in english speaking countries outside Nth America. The term Mogas, for Motor Gasoline (to distinguish from Avgas (Aviation gasoline) is also common everywhere). Another term is Motor Spirit, or Spirit for short. Once again...too much detail???

--GPoss 10:21, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

Page 3
I think we need a lock on this article for the moment. GraemeLeggett 14:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Or an IP block. See User_talk:Omegatron - Omegatron 14:51, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

 * 81.154.229.150 is one of my compatriots, I fear, RIPE shows them on BT Broadband. GraemeLeggett 15:15, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * What were you expecting? :-)  Don't worry, we won't make sweeping generalizations about your imperialistic tendencies.
 * It seems that whoever archived the talk page forgot that we were going to leave a note about the dispute and the consensus decision, however. - Omegatron 15:24, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Well that was fun. Come get me next time before it lasts this long. --Golbez 00:19, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * "This long"? You caught it in two minutes.  :-) - Omegatron 01:09, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * I believe that Golbez was referring not to this specific instance, but to the repeated vandalism / 3RR violation on the part of 81.154.229.150 (blocked by Golbez for forty-eight hours). —Lifeisunfair 01:18, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, my usual block is 24h but he had violated the vaunted 18 revert rule. :P --Golbez 01:31, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Octane in percent
I still am confused as to why gasoline octane ratings refer to a percentage (which, in this case can't be over 100%) but fuels with octanes of over 100 exist.
 * Its percentage compared to another fuel (2,3-dimethylpentane, if my chemistry serves me right). Same way as, say, height can be compared to a percentage of, say, 6 foot - 7 foot would be 116%. --Kiand 19:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 2,2,4-trimethylpentane, according to this encyclopaedia. Ah well. --Kiand 20:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Leaded gasoline causing damage to children's growth?
I learned in my economics course that leaded gasoline had faded out of use, because it had a negative impact on the growth of children (it supposedly caused mental disorders and what not). Could someone investigate this and incorporate it into the article? --Ted 05:53, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * The article Tetra-ethyl_lead seems to cover this. Do you think it should be made clearer that TEL damaged people and the environment in this article? --65.167.23.134 19:34, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It didn't "fade out of use", it was outright banned in most of the world. Across the EU no new car from 1993 onwards could use it, for instance. It was used a lot later in the EU than the US for some reason, possibly down to EU cars being designed for higher octane fuel - no cars here can touch petrol under 95RON, and yet the US "87 Octane" stuff converts to around 91 RON, for instance. --Kiand 21:35, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * That's just silly. I looked it up, the Honda Civic uses 91 RON in the UK, just like it does elsewhere in the world. --Bollinger 20:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Relating to "The Day after Tomorrow"
Does fuel REALLY freeze at -108*C (-150*F) as they say in that movie when the RAF helicopters go down?

 * It depends... Gasoline stops burning at -98F, I believe. --SodiumBenzoate 00:19, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The helicopters used Jet-A fuel not gasoline. --Gbleem 22:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I think it gels up at a low temp. trentc

Is smell a gas?
apples have smells, so do woods...while we classify these things as solids, how do you explain the smell?
 * Asking on a page about Petrol, no matter how annoying misnamed it is, isn't going to get you an answer to this. Asking on Smell might. --Kiand 18:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Odors are the result of volatile chemical compounds that are released by a substance as vapor and that can be detected by sensor cells in the nose. Many solids as well as liquids give off these compounds; those that give off a lot are "smelly." Gasoline is highly volatile, meaning that it readily become vaporous, which is why it has a strong odor. In fact, it is these vapors that burn rather than the liquid; hence the need for a carburetor or fuel injection. --Tysto 17:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
 * if I remember right, the smell in gasoline is not natural--it's added so people can detect the presence of gasoline...important if you have a leak. But the above reason would be why the odor spreads so easily. --Tenfour 14:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The smell in natural gas is added; I believe the smell in gasoline/petrol is it's "native" odor. Dculberson 14:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Origin of "petrol"
So which is it? Does "petrol" come from "petroleum spirit" (opening) or from French "petrole"? (Pharmeceutical section) --Tysto 22:21, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

 * At some British "Petrol Stations" it can be referred to as "petroleum spirit". For example, in signs such as "Danger: Petroleum Spirit, Highly Flammable!", so i would consider it likely that the former is true (without discounting the possibility of both being true, or having elements of truth). Guinness 15:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I didn't have time to look it up when I asked before, but Answer.com's Houghten-Mifflen Dictionary says the origin is French "petrole".
 * I'll take your word for it in that case, as, I have to confess that the "petroleum spirit" was an educated guess. Guinness 09:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * It actually comes from both, since they have a common origin! The Oxford Dictionary of English says the following: "ORIGIN late 19th cent.: from French pétrole, from medieval Latin petroleum, from petra ‘rock’ (from Greek) + Latin oleum ‘oil’". It is quite possible that both English and French derived the word from the Latin. Incidentally, if you asked most British people what Petrol was short for, they'd answer 'Petroleum' - but i've never heard anyone talk of 'Petroleum Spirit'... Perhaps its a regional thing? Twrist 15:56, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * No, the English word "petrol" does come from petroleum spirit. The French word pétrole is an umbrella term referring to paraffin/kerosene. Rusty2005 06:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually I think it's more complicated than that. Pre-War there was a retail brand of motor gasoline in the UK that had the clever name "Petrol" - from all the derivatins you cite. It became a household term in the UK - much as Kleenex or Hoover or Zipper - for mogas/gasoline/benzin/essence/gas or any of the other terms for motor gasoline around the world.212.24.224.18 10:54, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference to the French page http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A9trole will show that petrole is the French for crude oil, as in Compagnie Francaise des Petroles. The French for petrol is essence. Bearfoot 17:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

In the industry the failure of Carless to register their trade name "Petrol" is often cited as a cautionary tale for those using and misusing trade names.Bearfoot 17:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Origin of Terms
This article needs some information on origin of the terms Gasoline and Petrol, especially so for the "petrol" people who have to conform to the American usage. Personally I've always viewed the usage of "gasoline" as unfortunate because of the shortened term "gas". - Diceman 17:27, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I have some definitions from the Oxford Dictionary of English:
 * Petrol
 * → noun [mass noun] (Brit.)
 * 1. a light fuel oil that is obtained by distilling petroleum and used in internal-combustion engines.
 * ORIGIN late 19th cent.: from French pétrole, from medieval Latin petroleum, from petra ‘rock’ (from Greek) + Latin oleum ‘oil’".
 * Petroleum
 * → noun
 * [mass noun] a liquid mixture of hydrocarbons which is present in suitable rock strata and can be extracted and refined to produce fuels including petrol, paraffin, and diesel oil; oil.
 * Gasoline
 * → noun
 * North American term for petrol.
 * ORIGIN mid 19th cent.: from gas + -ol + -ine4 (or -ene)." Twrist 16:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * → noun
 * North American term for petrol.
 * ORIGIN mid 19th cent.: from gas + -ol + -ine4 (or -ene)." Twrist 16:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Perhaps you should also look up the definition of Living Language.

Rework table of energy content of fuels
I was adding the figures from the Diesel article to the table when I realized that:

1. the figure for diesel looks wrong

2. the figure for gasoline looks wrong

3. there is no single source of data for this table.

I'd like to get a table published by some verifiable source, something like the Society of Automotive Engineers, but have not turned up any easily verifiable tables to use as references. RPellessier | Talk 18:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

 * It would also be better to include energy content of yellow diesel and those that are LSD and ULSD. tentc

Inflation adjusted gas price graph should include the record prices of the 70s
Without the record prices of the 70s included, the graph does not tell the whole story. Cshay 19:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree on that point, but I'm not sure they should be here at all. This is an article on the substance gasoline/petrol, not specifically on its use in the United States retail market.  Why have a graph of U.S. retail prices, rather than say the much differently-shaped graph of German retail prices?  Some sort of international market wholesale prices indicating what gasoline itself costs at various times might be useful, but retail prices include all sorts of stuff such as local tax policy that should be dealt with in more specific articles on each country's domestic oil market. --Delirium 08:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice to have a graph of gasoline prices for the last 100 years adjusted for inflation.Trojancowboy (talk) 02:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Clear gasoline
I think what "clear gasoline" is should be mentioned in the article. From my research, it appears to be gasoline that hasn't had dye added to it. Tax exempt gasoline can only be used for certain applications, so it is dyed to catch violaters. Does anyone have conflicting information? -- Kjkolb 09:01, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It has been redirected to a relevant article. -- Kjkolb 02:04, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Contradictory data
These two things contradict:

Note that the main reason for the lower energy content (per litre) of LPG in comparison to gasoline is that it has a lower density. Energy content per kilogram is higher than for gasoline (higher hydrogen to carbon ratio). In simple terms, we burn mass, not volume!

If the energey content per kilogram, for LPG, is higher than that for gasoline, why does the table say gasoline = 45MJ/kg, LPG = 34.39MJ/kg?

 * Because the data was wrong. The problem as I see it is that several different articles have what should be the same data tables but with the information sourced from different places. Some of the data is seriously flawed. I'd really like to see some form of central database of physical constants such that all articles could access the same data set. This would probably need to be implemented in the wiki software. In the meantime, the table here has been upgraded to match that at Fuel economy in automobiles, including adding the reference from which the data has been derived. The reference provided octane numbers for gasoline but not the other fuels, so all other octane ratings remain effectively unreferenced. Needless to say, I'd need to see some pretty compelling evidence before accepting changes to any of the other data in this table. --Athol Mullen 22:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Energy Content...Ideal?
So, due to heat loss, friction, etc, real engines can only extract maybe 10%-40% of the total energy contained in gasoline. So my question is: Are the numbers listed in the table the "ideal" values of energy density? Or are they the average amount of energy a real engine could extract?JabberWok 20:56, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Oxegenate Blending
The current text is misleading, RFG formerly had a federal requirement to contain oxygen, but there is separate gasoline called 'oxegenated'. I will clean that up, sometime soon.--CorvetteZ51 23:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Petrol Diesel Mixes
I'm interest in learning about Petrol Diesel Mixes, i've heard that its something like when they mix petrol and diesel badly, and it produces incorrect fuel is this true? and does it cost anything, i'm asuming it is a waste material and that it is free, i'm probably wrong, but i'm hoping someone else can clean this up. as i hav been told my truck will run on even the crudest of mixes
 * When fuels are contaminated with each other, they are often sold to companies with boilers that can run on a wide variety of fuels. It is cheaper per gallon, but not free. Also, obtaining it would be difficult. It isn't something they generally offer at a gas station. You'd have to get a tanker truck to pick it up with or arrange for them to deliver to a large tank that you bought, as they won't bother dealing in small volume. -- Kjkolb 00:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Use as a cleaning product
I believe gasoline was first marketed as a cleaning product - does anyone have further information on this?

 * No. that was Benzene. Both are extremely flammable, even explosive, far too dangerous for use as a cleaning product. Also, please sign your statements. Martial Law 08:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC) :)

 * Cleaning product eh? Fire does clean well... Hbdragon88 06:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * As I understand it, gasoline was a waste product until gasolines engines came along. trentc

Broken Link on this page
The link, Gasoline Images - Vintage American gas station and fuel dispenser stock photography, link courtesy of http://www.coolstock.com Links to a 404... Am I allowed to fix/remove it? -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Cheese Pirate (talk • contribs) 4 October 2005

Super
From Super:

In Florda and Alska, as well as in continental Europe, Super was the name for a number of years commonly given to leaded high octane petrol (gasoline). Originally the name denoted premium leaded petrol, as opposed to Standard, which was non-premium leaded petrol. However, with the introduction of unleaded petrol in the early 1980s, Standard petrol was discontinued, leaving only Super, which then became a synonym for leaded petrol in general. This continued until the late 1990s, when leaded petrol began to be eliminated in favour of various different blends of unleaded petrol contain special additives for use with leaded vehicles. The name of these blends varies from oil company to oil company. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ewlyahoocom (talk • contribs) 8 January 2006

Price Calculating/Converting
I have noticed the Australian fuel price is out of date seeing as Petrol has dropped in price significantly over the last few weeks ($1.40/litre listed here, its now down around $1.10/litre). I am hopeless at maths but have used the Google Calculator to convert it to $US/gallon (it says $AUD1.11/litre = $US3.13/gallon) but I am not sure how accurate it is. Could someone with the skills to do so calculate this correctly? or... could someone list the equation for this type of conversion? Nickuss - 4 October 2006.

Possible math error on energy content table
I'm not an expert, but the energy content of gasoline is listed as approximately 32 MJ/l or 131 MJ/USgal. I think perhaps that should be 121 MJ/USgal, assuming about 3.79 l/USgal. Could someone in charge of this article please check that? Thanks for maintaining this great information resource! SteveVTS 16 Nov 2006.

title: Talk:Gasoline/Archive 1


text:
Andrea Tafi (cyclist)

Andrea Tafi (born 7 May 1966, in Fucecchio) is an Italian former road bicycle racer who retired from his professional career in 2005. Tafi's propensity to perform best in the harder races earned him the nickname "Il Gladiatore" (English: "The Gladiator").

Tafi specialized in the cobbled Spring Classics such as Paris–Roubaix which he won in 1999, and Tour of Flanders which he won in 2002. He won the Giro di Lombardia in 1996 and the Italian National Championship in 1998.

Career
The most successful part of Tafi's career was spent with the Italian super-squad. In the 1996 edition of Paris–Roubaix the team put four of their riders in a breakaway at the front of the race:  Johan Museeuw, Gianluca Bortolami, previous year's winner Franco Ballerini, and Tafi. Ballerini had a flat and was out of the lead group, but the other three powered their way to the finish.

In 1996 Tafi won the "race of the falling leaves" Giro di Lombardia, using his strength to overcome the climbs of the race. He said that his dream was to emulate his cycling hero fellow Italian Francesco Moser, which is to win Paris–Roubaix wearing the Tricolore jersey as the Italian National Champion. He accomplished this in his win in 1999. He won Paris–Tours in a long breakaway effort in 2000, foiling the sprinters' teams. After a few lacklustre years, he again shone in the 2002 edition of the hilly, cobbled classic Tour of Flanders. Having established himself in a front breakaway with the likes of Johan Museeuw, Peter van Petegem and teammate Daniele Nardello, he made attacks after attacks, finally taking advantage of a moment's hesitation between the two home favorites Museeuw and van Petegem to solo to the finish for the win.

After the demise of the Mapei super-team, Tafi moved to the reformed under Bjarne Riis for the 2003 season. His time with team in 2004 also didn't re-ignite his performance. He finally moved to the new team for his last season in 2005. Tafi ended his career at the 2005 Paris–Roubaix, before retiring from the sport.

Comeback attempt
Having competed in amateur Masters races for several years, Tafi announced in October 2018 that he would seek a comeback in 2019 to race Paris–Roubaix on the twentieth anniversary of his victory. On 8 November 2018, it was reported that he had found a team to ride with and that would attempt to receive a wildcard invitation for the event. Would his comeback have been successful, he would have been 52 years old when riding the race. A collarbone fracture eventually put an end to Tafi's comeback plans.

Doping
Tafi's name was on the list of doping tests published by the French Senate on 24 July 2013 that were collected during the 1998 Tour de France and found positive for EPO when retested in 2004.

Major results

 * 1989
 * 1st Stage 4 Vuelta a Murcia
 * 8th Firenze–Pistoia
 * 10th Overall Tour de Luxembourg
 * 1st Stage 5

 * 1990
 * 1st Stage 2 Kellogg's Tour
 * 3rd Overall Ruota d'Oro
 * 6th Firenze–Pistoia

 * 1991
 * 1st Giro del Lazio
 * 7th Firenze–Pistoia

 * 1992
 * 1st Overall Cronostaffetta

 * 1993
 * 9th Firenze–Pistoia

 * 1994
 * 1st Grand Prix de Fourmies
 * 1st GP Citta di Rio Saliceto e Correggio
 * 3rd Coppa Bernocchi
 * 4th Milano–Vignola
 * 5th Coppa Placci

 * 1995
 * 3rd Road race, National Road Championships
 * 3rd GP Industria & Commercio di Prato
 * 4th Rund um den Henninger Turm
 * 5th Giro di Toscana
 * 6th Giro del Lazio
 * 9th Giro dell'Emilia

 * 1996
 * 1st Giro di Lombardia
 * 1st Paris–Brussels
 * 1st Giro del Lazio
 * 1st Trofeo Melinda
 * 1st Coppa Placci
 * 2nd Tre Valli Varesine
 * 2nd Giro del Piemonte
 * 2nd Giro del Veneto
 * 3rd Paris–Roubaix
 * 4th Overall UCI Road World Cup
 * 4th Coppa Sabatini
 * 4th Japan Cup
 * 5th Gran Premio Città di Camaiore
 * 6th Road race, UCI Road World Championships
 * 8th Leeds International Classic

 * 1997
 * 1st Rochester International Classic
 * 1st Grand Prix de Fourmies
 * 1st Coppa Sabatini
 * Tour de Langkawi
 * 1st Stages 3 & 9
 * 2nd Amstel Gold Race
 * 2nd Japan Cup
 * 3rd Overall UCI Road World Cup
 * 3rd Paris–Brussels
 * 5th Giro del Lazio
 * 6th Overall Tour of Galicia
 * 7th Giro di Lombardia
 * 7th Gran Premio Città di Camaiore
 * 8th Trofeo Matteotti

 * 1998
 * 1st Jersey italianflag.svg Road race, National Road Championships
 * 1st Giro del Lazio
 * 1st Coppa Agostoni
 * 1st Gran Premio Città di Camaiore
 * 2nd Paris–Roubaix
 * 3rd Overall UCI Road World Cup
 * 4th Clásica de San Sebastián
 * 4th Züri–Metzgete
 * 4th Japan Cup
 * 5th Overall Tour de Langkawi
 * 1st Stage 1 (ITT)
 * 8th Road race, UCI Road World Championships
 * 8th Paris–Brussels
 * 8th Giro dell'Emilia
 * 9th Milano–Torino
 * 10th Giro di Lombardia

 * 1999
 * 1st Paris–Roubaix
 * 1st Giro del Piemonte
 * 3rd Millemetri del Corso di Mestre
 * 4th Firenze–Pistoia

 * 2000
 * 1st Paris–Tours
 * 6th Gran Premio Bruno Beghelli
 * 10th Paris–Roubaix

 * 2001
 * 1st Stage 1 Vuelta a Burgos
 * 2nd Firenze–Pistoia
 * 8th Giro della Provincia di Siracusa

 * 2002
 * 1st Tour of Flanders
 * 8th Overall Tour Down Under
 * 10th GP Ouest–France

 * 2003
 * 5th Paris–Roubaix

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Andrea Tafi (cyclist)


text:
Present sense impression

A present sense impression, in the law of evidence, is a statement made by a person (the declarant) that conveys his or her sense of the state of an event or the condition of something. The statement must be spontaneously made while the person was perceiving (i.e. contemporaneous with) the event or condition, or "immediately thereafter." The permissible time lapse between event and statement may range from seconds to minutes, but probably not hours. The subject matter and content of the statement are limited to descriptions or explanations of the event or condition, therefore opinions, inferences, or conclusions about the event or condition are not present sense impressions. An example of present sense impression is of a person saying, "it's cold" or "we're going really fast".

Under the Federal Rules of Evidence [FRE 803(1)], a statement of present sense impression is an exception to the prohibition on use of hearsay as evidence at a trial or hearing, and is therefore admissible to prove the truth of the statement itself (i.e. to prove that it was in fact cold at the time the person was speaking, or to prove that the person was indeed traveling very fast). The basis for this exception is the belief that the statement is likely reliable and true, as there is no time for reflection, distortion, or fabrication.

The witness testifying about the statement need not be the declarant who, with firsthand knowledge about the event and condition, would normally make a better witness. The witness must have personal knowledge of declarant's making of the statement, but need not have personal knowledge of the event or the content of the statement. For example, a policeman observed from a distance that a reporter was dictating into a voice-recorder while a shooting was going on, but could not hear what the reporter was dictating. The reporter is unavailable to testify. The policeman testifies that he saw the reporter make the dictation. Upon proper authentication, that portion of the audio-recording containing descriptions or explanations of the shooting is admissible as present sense impression.

title: Present sense impression


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User:Jenblower

Update 09/07/07 I'm not currently updating on Wikipedia, partly because I'm too busy at work, and partly because I completely disagree with the new policy of having to reference each book cover RETROSPECTIVELY. Having taken the time to work on several 100 book stubs, either sorting or sorting and adding text/book covers, I don't currently have the time, or energy, to go back and REDO ALL THE SAME WORK. I appreciate that policy changes from time to time, but I think it's really unreasonable to expect (note, not ask, that would've been nice), the same editors to go back and alter entries which met the criteria at the time of creation. surely it would've been more in keeping with the ethos of Wiki to have a group/project of people that went through and offered to do this? Instead we have bots spamming talk pages.

As an information professional, someone who understands copyright/fair use and a book lover, seriously, I despair.

title: User:Jenblower


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Xenacanthus

Xenacanthus (from Ancient Greek ξένος, xénos, 'foreign, alien' + ἄκανθος, akanthos, 'spine') is an extinct genus of xenacanth cartilaginous fish. It lived in freshwater environments, and fossils of various species have been found worldwide.

Description
Xenacanthus is relatively small member in its order. X. decheni reached about 1 m, X. meisenheimensis reached up to 1.2 m, X. (Expleuracanthus) gaudryi reached 58 cm. X. parallelus is one of the smallest xenacanth, male reached 20 cm and female reached 34 cm, both are fully grown.

The dorsal fin was ribbonlike and ran the entire length of the back and round the tail, where it joined with the anal fin. This arrangement resembles that of modern conger eels, and Xenacanthus probably swam in a similar manner. A distinctive spine projected from the back of the head and gave the genus its name. The spike has even been speculated to have been venomous, perhaps in a similar manner to a sting ray. The teeth had an unusual "V" shape, and it probably fed on small crustaceans and heavily scaled palaeoniscid fishes. As with many xencanths, Xenacanthus is mainly known because of fossilised teeth and spines.

Fossils are known from the Carboniferous-Permian of North America, Europe, and South America. Triassic species have been moved into the separate genus Mooreodontus.

Species

 * X. texensis
 * X. atriossis
 * X. compressus
 * X. indicus
 * X. decheni
 * X. denticulatus
 * X. erectus
 * X. gibbosus
 * X. gracilis
 * X. howsei
 * X. laevissimus
 * X. latus
 * X. luedernesis
 * X. ossiani
 * X. ovalis
 * X. parallelus
 * X. ragonhai - Rio do Rasto Formation, Brazil
 * X. robustus
 * X. serratus
 * X. slaughteri
 * X. taylori

title: Xenacanthus


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DYSEAC

DYSEAC was the second Standards Electronic Automatic Computer. (See SEAC.)

DYSEAC was a first-generation computer built by the National Bureau of Standards for the U.S. Army Signal Corps. It was housed in a truck, making it one of the first movable computers (perhaps the first). It went into operation in April 1954.

DYSEAC used 900 vacuum tubes and 24,500 crystal diodes. It had a memory of 512 words of 45 bits each (plus 1 parity bit), using mercury delay-line memory. Memory access time was 48–384 microseconds. The addition time was 48 microseconds, and the multiplication/division time was 2112 microseconds. These times are excluding the memory-access time, which added up to approximately 1500 microseconds to those times.

DYSEAC weighed about 20 ST.

title: DYSEAC


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Estradasphere

Estradasphere was an American experimental band that originated in Santa Cruz, California, during the late 1990s. The band, which in its last incarnation was based in Seattle, consisted of six multi-instrumentalists from a variety of musical backgrounds trained in disciplines ranging from classical music and jazz to heavy metal.

In November 2007, members of Estradasphere started touring with Amanda Palmer of The Dresden Dolls, as well as helping to produce her debut solo album Who Killed Amanda Palmer.

The band is on a "permanent hiatus" since 2010.

Music
Estradasphere were influenced by many different artists from many different subgenres, such as jazz, funk, techno, classical music, pop, heavy metal, New Age, Latin, Balkan, klezmer, Greek and Romani. They were influenced by artists such as The Beach Boys and Secret Chiefs 3, and have been compared to Mr. Bungle, Frank Zappa and John Zorn. Similarly to Mr. Bungle and Secret Chiefs 3, the band mixes several genres in its songs. The band was a self-proclaimed inventor of bizarre genres such as "Bulgarian Surf", "Romanian Gypsy-Metal", and "Spaghetti Eastern" and sounded like "Psychedelic-Sci-fi", "Gypsy-Metal-Jazz" and "Epic-Cinema-Thon", according to its MySpace.

In 1997, members of the group released an avant-garde metal album called Koolaide Moustache in Jonestown under the name Don Salsa.

Members
According to www.estradasphere.com:
 * Tim Smolens - standup bass, electric bass, vocals, audio production/engineering
 * Timba Harris - violin, trumpet, mandolin, guitar, vocals
 * Jason Schimmel - guitar, keyboards, banjo, vocals
 * Lee Smith - drums
 * Kevin Kmetz - tsugaru shamisen, guitar, keyboards
 * Adam Stacey - accordion, keyboards, vocals

Former members

 * David Murray - drums
 * John Whooley - saxophone, accordion, vocals

title: Estradasphere


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Excited utterance

An excited utterance, in the law of evidence, is a statement made by a person in response to a startling or shocking event or condition. It is an unplanned reaction to a "startling event". It is an exception to the hearsay rule. The statement must be spontaneously made by the person (the declarant) while still under the stress of excitement from the event or condition. The subject matter and content of the statement must "relate to" the event or condition in question. The statement could be a description or explanation (as required for present sense impression), or an opinion or inference. Examples include: "Look out! We're going to crash!" or "I think he's crazy. He's shooting at us!" The basis for this hearsay exception is the belief that a statement made under the stress is likely to be trustworthy and unlikely to be a premeditated falsehood. Compared to present sense impression, excited utterance is broader in scope for permitting a longer time lapse between event and statement, and a wider range of content in the statement.

Under the Federal Rules of Evidence, an excited utterance is a hearsay exception, and is admissible to prove the truth of the statement itself (e.g., in the case of the first quotation above, to prove that the vehicle the declarant was riding in was, in fact, about to crash). To prove the truth of the statement means to persuade the finder of fact to believe the affirmative sense of the statement. "Truth" here does not mean truth from the subjective point of view of the declarant or from the objective point of view of a reasonably prudent person. It simply refers to the affirmative assertion of the statement.

Spontaneity of the declarant is a key to admissibility. An excited utterance does not have to be made at time of the startling event, but must be made while the declarant is still in a state of surprise or shock from the incident. The declarant's reflective powers must be stilled, meaning that, while making the statement, the declarant would not have had a chance to reflect upon the startling event, fabricate a purposefully false statement, and then say it. If the declarant is believed to have had time to reflect on the situation before making the statement, the statement would not be spontaneous and thus not an excited utterance. However, under certain circumstances, it is possible for days to have passed before the declarant fully reflects on the event, and "unstills" his or her reflective powers.

Spontaneity is established by the declarant's demeanor, time lapse, and content of the statement. Declarant's appearance of calmness at time statement lessens admissibility. Time lapse between the startling event and the statement is a factor for both admissibility and weight. A statement made long after the event may be deemed less spontaneous than one made contemporaneously or shortly after. Outer limit of the permissible time lapse can only be determined from the circumstances of a particular case. For example, if a declarant made a statement six days after a car crash due to the extent of his injuries, admissibility of the statement is diminished because of the significant passage of time. However, if evidence shows that he was continuously distraught and did not yet have a chance to reflect upon the crash, the statement could be admissible but may have less weight than if the statement had been made one hour after the crash. A complete and detailed statement may infer the lack of spontaneity, as a narrative of a past completed event would require the declarant's reflection and organization. A similar case involved a woman who had been in a coma for thirty days following a car crash. When she awoke and was told what had happened she exclaimed "I must have fallen asleep!" At trial, her statement was admitted even though a month had passed because the startling event was perceived to be the telling of the news, as opposed to the crash itself.

title: Excited utterance


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Kevin Shirley

Kevin Shirley, also known as The Caveman, is a South African music producer, engineer and audio mixer for many artists, including Aerosmith, The Black Crowes, Silverchair, Journey, Iron Maiden, Led Zeppelin, Rush, Joe Bonamassa, Beth Hart, Dream Theater, Jimmy Barnes, Cold Chisel, Joanne Shaw Taylor, The Springbok Nude Girls, All Night Radio, Steve Louw & Big Sky,   HIM, Mr. Big, and Europe.

Biography
Kevin John Shirley was born in Johannesburg, South Africa. He spent his early years producing and engineering records for South African artists including Robin Auld, Juluka, Jonathan Butler, Lesley Rae Dowling, Steve Louw and Sweatband as well as performing and recording with his own band The Council, whose singer was Brian Davidson (from Freedoms Children).

He moved to Australia in 1986 where he continued working with Australian artists, such as The Hoodoo Gurus, The Angels, Cold Chisel, Girl Monstar, Tina Arena, The Screaming Jets, Baby Animals. After producing Silverchair's debut album Frogstomp, he moved to the United States.

In the US and he produced work for Aerosmith, Dream Theater, Black Country Communion, Journey, The Black Crowes, Iron Maiden, Rush and Slayer. He also worked on the retrospective Led Zeppelin DVD. He has produced several albums for American blues-rock guitarist Joe Bonamassa. Shirley produced the Mr. Big album What If....

In March 2023, Jimmy Barnes announced the formation of supergroup The Barnestormers, featuring Barnes, Chris Cheney, Slim Jim Phantom, Jools Holland and Kevin Shirley. A self-titled album was released on 26 May 2023.

title: Kevin Shirley


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Star Trek: Deep Space Nine: Dominion Wars

Star Trek: Deep Space Nine: Dominion Wars is a 2001 space combat/real-time tactics video game for Microsoft Windows developed by Gizmo Industries and published by Simon & Schuster. The game is based on the Star Trek TV show Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

Single-player
Gameplay is a mix between real-time tactics and space combat simulation. The game allows simultaneous control of up to six different ships from any of the four main combatant powers in the Dominion War - the Federation, the Klingons, the Cardassians and the Dominion. Missions include both primary and secondary objectives that allow a multitude of solutions for completion. To this end, before most missions, player may choose their ships, captains and accessories from a range of available personnel and ship classes.

Completing each mission earns the player credits, which can be used between missions to purchase new ships, more experienced captains or more powerful ship upgrades. Captains gain experience points for every mission they complete, and the more experience points they earn, the more competent they become. If a captain's ship is destroyed, although that captain will still be available for selection for the next mission, his or her experience points will have reverted to zero.

The player can issue commands to either each ship individually, or the fleet as a whole. They can also divide their fleet up into small units and issue separate commands to each unit. Player can choose how their ships attack the enemies by selecting from several pre-set patterns, and can also select what part of the enemy ship to focus their attack on (shields, engines, weapons or general). The player can also choose to divert power on their own ships from one system to another at any time. Player can also utilize transporters to send, for example, a team of engineers to help fix a damaged vessel quickly, or a team of troops to commandeer an enemy vessel. The game can be played from either side of the conflict; the Federation/Klingon alliance or the Cardassian/Dominion alliance. Depending on which side the player chooses, the levels, missions and overall objectives are very different.

Multiplayer
In the game's online multiplayer mode, up to 48 ships can compete in a single game. Available game modes include "Free-for-all"; "Domination", "Find the Founder", "Capture" and "Hold and Conquest".

Story
Dominion Wars is set roughly over the course of seasons five, six and seven of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, in which the Federation and their allies battle against the invading Dominion forces.

Federation mode
Each mission is introduced by Admiral Ross (voiced by Barry Jenner).

The game begins shortly after Gul Dukat has betrayed his allies in Starfleet and joined the Dominion (see "In Purgatory's Shadow" and "By Inferno's Light"). This move has prompted the Federation and the Klingon Empire to form an alliance in anticipation of the seemingly unavoidable war. Admiral Ross points out that the Cardassians are still bitter about some of the defeats they suffered at the hands of the Maquis (rogue Federation resistance fighters) several years previously, during the border disputes after the Federation-Cardassian Treaty. Starfleet believe that now the Cardassians have the Jem'Hadar backing them up, they will try to wipe out any Maquis settlements in the Badlands. As Starfleet is using the Maquis to transport civilians from Cardassian space, they head into the area to escort the ships. Having successfully evacuated the civilians, Starfleet must now move to defend against a Dominion offensive on Deep Space 9 itself. As they are outnumbered and unable to adequately defend the station, Starfleet have decided to abandon it temporarily, with the aim of recapturing it at a later date. However, before they leave, they activate a cloaked mine field at the entrance to the wormhole, preventing any Dominion reinforcements from coming through (see "Call to Arms").

As the war is now in full swing, Starfleet is continually finding itself outmaneuvered by the Dominion, who seem to know everything Starfleet is doing. The reason for this is a massive sensor array in a remote region of space near Betazed, hidden in an asteroid belt. Starfleet decides that to have any chance in the war, they must destroy the array. Having done so, however, it soon becomes apparent that even without that tactical advantage, the Dominion are building ships much faster than either Starfleet or the Klingons can. A Klingon task force is dispatched to attack and cripple a Dominion shipyard, but a Dominion fleet is simultaneously sent to attack the now defenceless Klingon border. As such, Starfleet must race to get in touch with the Klingons and defend the borders until the Klingons return.

Starfleet then receives word that the Cardassians are planning the public execution of Thomas Riker, a former Starfleet officer who joined the Maquis before being captured by the Cardassians and sentenced to life imprisonment. Refusing to allow his execution, Starfleet sets out to intercept the fleet taking Riker to Cardassia Prime. Having saved Riker, it is then revealed that the Dominion are breeding Jem'Hadar soldiers far faster than was initially thought. To counteract this, Starfleet target the Dominion's largest Ketracel white (a drug to which all Jem'Hadar are genetically addicted) facility in the sector.

The destruction of the Ketracel white facility slows the production of soldiers by 50%. However, the Dominion form a new and unexpected alliance with a powerful but mysterious race known as the Breen (see "'Til Death Do Us Part" and "Strange Bedfellows"). However, at the same time, a new starship has been commissioned by Starfleet, the USS Imperious, an Achilles-class vessel, with Thomas Riker as captain. The introduction of this new vessel, coupled with the recent alliance with the Romulans (see "In the Pale Moonlight") means Starfleet are now ready to retake Deep Space 9 (see "Favor the Bold" and "Sacrifice of Angels").

Having retaken the station, Starfleet learns that the Dominion are once again building ships at a dangerous rate. As such, their largest shipyard is completely destroyed. At this stage, with little options left to them, the Dominion go on the offensive, launching a massive invasion of Earth, which Starfleet prevent. The Dominion forces then retreat back to Cardassia Prime to regroup, but the Federation, Klingons and Romulans decide to invade Cardassia, dealing a final blow to the Dominion and winning the war (see "What You Leave Behind").

Dominion mode
Each mission is introduced by either Gul Dukat (Marc Alaimo) or Weyoun (Jeffrey Combs).

As with the Federation missions, the game begins shortly after the formation of the Cardassian/Dominion alliance, with the Cardassians moving to wipe out the Maquis, who are attempting to flee the Badlands. Having destroyed the Maquis, the Dominion then move to save a Founder who has been located on a Klingon ship. Having done this, the Dominion are enraged with Starfleet's attempt to block the entrance to the wormhole with a blanket of cloaked mines, attempting to cut the Dominion off from their reinforcements in the Gamma Quadrant. As such, they decide that Deep Space 9 itself must be captured and the mine field destroyed before activation.

Having done so, the Dominion detect a series of Starfleet/Klingon task forces attempting to capture Dominion sensor arrays and shipyards. As such, they send a fleet to block the attacks. However, it is revealed that there was never any intention of attacking the arrays - the entire mission was a feint to catch the Dominion off-guard so Starfleet could rescue Thomas Riker. Now Riker has been placed in charge of a new class of ship, the Achilles-class USS Imperious. The Dominion thus set out to kill him and destroy the new ship. Having successfully done so, the Dominion then send a fleet of Cardassian ships to capture a sensor array. However, upon reaching the array, the Cardassians hand it over to Starfleet and then do the same thing with Deep Space 9. Dissatisfied with their place in the new alliance with the Breen, the Cardassians have abandoned the Dominion and joined with the Federation/Klingon/Romulan alliance (see "The Changing Face of Evil"). As such, the Dominion determine to destroy the Cardassians as a sign of their strength. They begin to annihilate Cardassian colonies and settlements, and then destroy Deep Space 9 itself.

With the destruction of Deep Space 9, reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant pour through the wormhole and the Alpha Quadrant forces retreat. The Dominion decide to attack the Klingon and Romulans first, destroying their borders and then invading both homeworlds simultaneously. With this accomplished, only the Federation stands against the Dominion. It is determined that Starfleet's main offensive starbase must be destroyed to ensure no major resistance can be launched. With this done, only one objective remains - the invasion of Earth. A massive assault is launched and the Dominion invade the planet, crippling Starfleet and the Federation and taking complete control of the Alpha Quadrant.

Development
The game was developed by Gizmo Industries a company founded in April 1998 by ex-Activision Studios employees, Gary Wagner and Rodney Walden.

Reception
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine: Dominion Wars received "mixed" reviews according to the review aggregation website Metacritic.

Eurogamer's Tom Bramwell called it "a fairly bland, totally linear strategy romp through space by the numbers." He praised the online multiplayer mode and graphics, but was critical of the overly complicated controls and several recurring bugs, such as commands not registering with ships and a bug which made mid-level saves impossible in the initial release version of the game (although he acknowledged a patch had been released to fix this). He concluded that "Star Trek: Dominion Wars is an interesting, occasionally exciting game that suffers from a few notable flaws. It's not really an accurate portrayal of the final series of DS9 because it's so faceless, but it's pretty good in its own right. If you think the bugs and plodding pace won't trouble you too much, and you like the idea of piloting a band of huge starships around the universe, you could do worse than to check it out."

GameSpot's Bruce Geryk was highly critical of the amount of bugs in the initial release version of the game ("Lockups, crashes, bizarre video effects, saved games that disappear for no reason--all of these issues plagued the game when it hit store shelves"). He criticized the lack of a single-player skirmish mode, as well as the rigid linearity of the game. However, he praised the graphics, sounds and camera control. He concluded that "Dominion Wars does a nice job of capturing the feel of the Deep Space Nine universe, and the show's fans will find a lot to like about it as a result. But gamers who are interested in a general space strategy game might find the strategy elements a bit thin. If you're a big fan of Deep Space Nine and just want to fight for the future of Alpha Quadrant, and you also have some patience with potential technical problems, Dominion Wars is worthwhile. But if you want a comprehensive space combat strategy game, you should look elsewhere."

IGN's Dan Adams felt that the game paled in comparison to the TV show; "the game just doesn't hold the same interest as the show. It was just soulless compared to the vibrant portrayal of the situation in the show." He too praised the graphics and sound, but was highly critical of the interface and controls, and argued that the patches released to combat the bugs failed to do their job; "even after all of the patches to fix what was a horribly buggy mess at release, the game still has a bunch of problems -- weird crashes, graphical glitches, a sticky interface and a scrolling feature that barely works just to name a few." He was also critical of the lack of tactical options, arguing that every level "comes down to overpowering your enemies either by numbers or by equipping your ships with special weapons and shield enhancements."

In 2009, Kotaku ranked Dominion Wars as one of the two worst Star Trek games.


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Talk:Say You'll Be There

Untitled
Does anyone know where to find the single disc cover of "Say You'll Be There"? DrippingInk 23:50, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The song's true value shone through regardless of elemental faults such as the grammatical errors. This sounds like bias to me.. ^pirate 19:01, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

GA on hold
This had been sitting around at GAC for a while now, so I decided to jump in and review it. Here's what I've got. And yes, before you ask, I did do this offline, hence a lot of "I think" rather than "I checked, and..."

 * ✅ The first sentence should mention the Spice Girls' nationality.
 * Is there a relevant article on Eliot Kennedy? - It looks odd to have Jonathan Buck linked, but not him.
 * ✅ In the lead's 2nd paragraph, the first link (to 1996 in music) should be removed, and formatted as it is lower with the 1997 in music link. You also need to mention the release date(s) and cite them.
 * ✅ The music video, an example of the solidarity of the all-female bond of the group, received positive reactions and even was nominated for several awards like the MTV Video Music Awards, and the BRIT Awards. - Reads poorly and is slightly crufty. I suggest a reword to:
 * The song's music video received positive reactions from critics and was nominated for numerous awards including the MTV Video Music Awards, and the BRIT Awards.
 * ✅ I'm not sure you need to include both Single chronologies (in the infobox) - unless this is a standard on Spice Girls articles...
 * ✅ It's nice to see an audio sample, but you need to mention the length of the sample in its description in listen. See Pick You Up for the first article I can think of which is formatted "correctly" - and I only mention it because I added the sample yesterday :)
 * ✅ Ref 3 simply says "David Sinclair, p. 34." - was this a book, or what? If so, could we at least get the book title?
 * ✅ "...according to Mel B depicts about the girls telling that it does not matter to say that you love them", "...was one of the first songs that the girls wrote after they left their formed managers...", "The next day the girls went to Sheffield to meet with the producer Elliot Kennedy...", "The girls persuaded him to work with them, and it became a very productive session..." - Don't use "girls" in an enyclopedia. Use "group" etc. instead.
 * ✅ "...their formed managers..." - Should this say "their former managers"?
 * ✅ ref 5 - There shouldn't be a space between it and ref 4, they should be in contact. An example (although I'm sure you know what I mean) can be seen at the bottom of the paragraph here (3 refs).
 * ✅ "a practically identical song released two years ago in Israel." - pratically isn't the best word, try rewording to something like;
 * "a highly similar song released two years earlier in Israel."
 * ✅ Israel needs a wikilink too ;)
 * ✅ The reception section needs re-ordering. If you check out WP:ALBUMS, you'll notice that Sputnikmusic and Amazon are sites to avoid (especially if not written by site staff) - I personally don't have anything major against them if it's a solid review, but you should definitely put the reviews from respected sites like All Music and Entertainment Weekly at the TOP of the section.
 * ✅ Whilst on the note of the reception section, it'd be nice if the reception as a whole was summarised before you jump in to quoting reviews. Just a sentence saying something like "Whilst some critics praised "Say You'll Be There" as a catchy song, others dubbed it as merely a bid for credibility." Most of the GA song articles include such summaries, I'm quite certain I Don't Remember (another of my articles :p) has one.
 * ✅ "continues the demanding b/tch tendency of Wannabe" - No need for censorship.
 * ✅ In the music video image, you can barely see the two Spice Girls furtherest from the front. One (on the right) is virtually hidden behind the black chick's hair (no racist connotations), the other (back left) is tucked between the head of the brunette and the shoulder of the blond/albino/chick with a bold strip down the middle of her haid >_> So yeah, is there an image where they're a bit closer together, if possible?  And yes, I apologise for not being able to identify and name the Spice Girls :(
 * ✅ There shouldn't be a space between refs 12 and 13.
 * ✅ "The selection for the video's milieu resulted in a very different setting from its predecessor, which was filmed at a hotel." - Um...what? What's a milieu, for a start (wikilink, or wiktionary link)? Which predecessor? WHICH HOTEL?
 * ✅ 2nd paragraph of music video section needs wikilinking - at the very least to warrior and ninja (ooh, Spice Girls + Ninjas. That can't end badly :P)
 * ✅ I'm not sure if you need to mention the years that the movies were made in.
 * ✅ Ref 15 - Where did Halliwell say that? Book title, etc.
 * I can vaguely remember the plotline of Pulp Fiction (having seen it over 6 months ago :p), and I can't recall how taking on "fictional identities" is noted in the movie. But maybe I just didn't get it - it IS Tarantino :p
 * ✅ Are the Spice Girls usually referred too with initials for surnames? You say "Melanie C. played "Katrina Highkick" (etc.), yet link to Melanie Chisholm.  Why not just say "Melanie Chisholm played "Katrina Highkick" - unless everyone (except me) knows her as Melanie C?
 * Is there a ref for who they played? If the video is on YouTube, you can use YouTube.
 * ✅ Ref 16 includes the text "(the site also contains nude photos, so be warned)" - Whilst I appreciate the warning, WP:CENSOR applies, so this should be removed. The disclaimer will cover your back :)
 * ✅ From my experience, names of awards (Best Pop Video etc.) are generally placed in "quotation marks" rather than italicised, but I suppose either way is OK.
 * ✅ What's with the appreviations (BPI etc.)? You need to use the full name at least one, and only abbreviate if it's REALLY long (this one is long, I guess, but use the full name the first time it's mentioned)
 * ✅ Refs 25 and 26 shouldn't have a space between them.
 * ✅ "In Norway the single debuted at number four, when "Wannabe" still was on the top three" - Replace "on the top three" with "in the top three"
 * ✅ "remaining seven weeks on the top five and fourteen weeks in total" - Again, replace on with in.
 * ✅ "at number twenty-three, it reached a peak position of twelve thirteen weeks later" - change to;
 * "at number twenty-three, and peacked at number twelve thirteen weeks later"
 * ✅ Refs 32 and 33 shouldn't have a space between them.
 * ✅ Neither should 36 and 37
 * ✅ "The song was included in the set list for both, the" - Remove the comma.
 * ✅ Remove space between refs 41 and 42
 * ✅ "and after Geri left the band, the song continued to be included on the live sets" - Reword to;
 * "and remained the in band's live set after Halliwell's departure."
 * ✅ "The second verse had originally been sung by Ginger Spice (Geri) with Sporty Spice (Mel C.)" - Replace "Geri" with "Halliwell"
 * ✅ "After Geri's departure, Mel C. sang lead and Emma added the high harmony" - Replace "Geri" with "Halliwell" and "Emma" with "Bunton" (I'm learning their names!)
 * ✅ Remove space between refs 45 and 46
 * Ref 47 - a .tk website is rarely considered a reiable source, see if you can find something else (even if it means finding individual refs for each release)
 * ✅ Please follow the standards at WP:ALBUMS for the personnel section.
 * The "Charts, peaks and certifications" section should be merged into the "Chart performance" section above.
 * In the "Certifications" section, is it possible to link the certification types to an article that describes them. IIRC, there is an ARIA related article that mentions the certifications standards - I think it's linked to on Dream Days at the Hotel Existence, somewhere...
 * Is there a progression box for the Danish Singles Chart?

And that's all I've got...which could hardly be considered a good thing :p Thankfully, a lot of this stuff is minor, and it comes from a very thorough reading of the article, so a lot of it is more FA stuff. Not that I'm endorsing an FAC just yet, but I will pass the GA without everything being done. But do it all anyway :p Dihydrogen Monoxide (H2O) 07:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the review. I did almost everything you suggested.

Unfortunately there isn't an article about Elliot Kennedy, and I can't find a complete archive of the danish chart. I read in some song's discussions that the Track listings don't need explicit references since they're inherently referenced to the single itself, but I added the reference anyway, so I don't know if you believe if is better to remove it. I don't linked the certification types to an article in the "Certifications" section because there are some links to that article in the Chart Performance and in the Single Infobox. Almost every article I've seen have the table of chart positions in a separate section near the end, I merged them in a preview just to see how it looks like and it looks weird. If you have any more suggestions please feel free to address them to me and I would try to fix them as soon as I can.

Sorry for my english, it's not my native language. Thanks. Frcm1988 00:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Wonderful.  Passed.  GA. Dihydrogen Monoxide (H2O) 09:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Say You'll Be There


text:
Talk:Nureddin Pasha

Untitled
Nureddin Pasha was only one of the commanders of the Turkish army, and even Ataturk himself did not think very highly of him, which he made very clear in his speech (Nutuk) that he made in Turkish parliament where he gave the full account of the independence war from 1919 to 1923. According to Ataturk, Nureddin Pasha was a commander who required constant supervision, many other other commanders and members of the parliament had complaints about his command and character. It is well known that Greek forces set Izmir on fire while escaping, and later Nureddin Pasha set (or let set) other neighborhoods of Izmir, from which Ataturk himself escaped narrowly. Nureddin Pasha became a member of the Turkish parliament and retired from the army in 1925. I would also like to see a NPOV document to prove that he actually gave such an order, otherwise remove it please.

This article does not give a fair account, neither Ottoman empire nor Republic of Turkey had an official policy for Genocide. Certain historians prefer to call it genocide, and others don't. Intercommunal fights do not qualify for genocide, but even in that case, those issues do not belong to this article. There are articles in wikipedia about this so-called armenian genocide and these issues should be discussed there. It is really sinister to put little remarks here and there in unrelated articles to advance a certain agenda.

I also protest wiglaf in strongest terms for blocking my access and accusing me of "second genocide"!! I only removed things that did not belong in place. Linking to a page full of greek propaganda about what might have happened in Anatolia 85 years ago certainly does not belong to Izmir page which is about the city today. These things belong to Smyrna page, and in that page both sides of the conflict should be given equal access instead of asuming Turks as bloodthirsty monsters. If wiki administrators are serious about NPOV, they should demonstrate it better than blocking access by assumptions!

wiglaf sent me some references about the number of greeks, armenians etc. in Izmir. Some of these are british sources, who were part of the conflict, hence not NPOV. It is well known that Britain did everything to make USA part of the war, this also includes inciting religous hatred. British parliament later on accepted that some of the books written in that era was the production of war propaganda department. In short, either both sides should write their POV, or better yet no POV should remain in articles at all. This article is NOT about armenian or any other so-called genocide, this is about a commander in independence war. It is NOT appropriate to make subjective comments on the policies of Republic of Turkey in this article. I will remove that part once again, because it does NOT belong here. I hope we can discuss these things in a better way instead of blocking my access based on false assumptions!!

 * Thank you for giving your point of view Cngvr. Please don't remove information as an anonymous user in the future. It can very easily be misconstrued as vandalism.--Wiglaf 14:21, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

he was a war criminal and should be sentenced to death for the genocide of greeks in smyrna —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.235.189.136 (talk • contribs)

Surely Nureddin Pasha is burning in hell right now. But that is not for me to decide. 212.251.124.37 (talk) 17:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

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Murders and massacres.
He ordered several murders and massacres. This is indisputable. I don't see where is the problem. To hide these facts is problematic, I think. Jingiby (talk) 04:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Nureddin Pasha


text:
User talk:Irpen/Kijów in Kiev article

Kijów in Kiev article

 * Witkacy wrote: "The city was part of the Kijów Voivodship, Poland for 200 years, so what is your problem?--Witkacy 18:12, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)"

Hi Witkacy, I have absolutely no problem with this fact of the city's history as well as with its being covered in the history section of the Kiev article where the name Kijów belongs. (BTW, so far it got only little coverage there if at all and your contribution would be of help). All I mean is that this is inappropriate to have this name mentioned in the very first line of the article based on that. Kiev being the part of the Russian Empire and Soviet Union is only one of several reasons why the Russian name is there (see earlier talk). I see Kijów Voivodship entirely appropriate in its own context but not in the first line of the article where the names that introduce the city for the first time are listed. The recent mess with PL names being added for the cities in Germany has already generated enough controversy. Let's just be a little more careful. So, I will revert this, and I hope this sounds convincing. Please, no flames -Irpen 18:37, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * Having the Polish name for Kiev as the third piece of information in the article is ridiculous. We can include the Polish name in the section that discusses the Polish history of city. The Polish name is only marginally relevant, and having it in the first sentence is totally unnecessary clutter. (This is an agreement with Irpen) Nohat 18:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * The problem with German names was completely different - the war started when some users around Chris 73 began to add German names in articles like Lechia Gdansk etc., its like someone would add the Polish name of Kiev to the FC Arsenal Kyiv article... All Polish articles with important cities, which belonged to Germany after the partitions of Poland, have the German in the first line of the article. As i already said Kiev was 200 years the seat of the Voivodship Governor of the Kijów Voivodship and part of Poland. Befor that, the city was part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania which was in personal union with Poland. So why should not the Polish name be mentioned in the first line? Especially in the context that - for an example - Rumia have the German name in the first line, but was a non important village populated by Poles in times when it was part of Germany.--Witkacy 19:17, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article has two names in the first line: Kiev as most commonly used English name (which also happen to coincide with the Russian name and the reasons for that is a separate issue being still hotly debated), and Kyiv a Ukrainian name used by the Urkainian government and, although infrequently but since recently somewhat more commonly, in English. Kijów is not used outside Poland, except for the part of the history when the city was under the PL or R-P. I am all for using Kijów in this context! Why won't you feel the gaps in the appropriate section of the article instead of fighting for Kijów in the first line? The deletion of Kijów from the first line was done through a consensus and it will simply not make it there as far as I can see. I don't even need to delete it myself, because then someone else will. Please understand, that this has nothing to do with anti-Polish sentiment of anyone. Actually, there is none in Kiev and among those who follow this article. There is a much stronger anti-Russian or "pro-Russian" sentiment in some UA-related articles and it causes enough trouble already. Let's not open another area for these fights. If you feel like writing about the Polish and Lithuanian period of the city history, I would be glad to help with sources and anything I can. I am not competent enough to write on this myself. Regards, -Irpen 19:48, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * Please visit Naming conventions/Vote on city naming. You may find this of interest. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:22, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

a Kijów/Kiev end note (hopefully)
Thanks to all for stopping this reversion cycle. Since WP:Point is a guideline and not a policy, I can see it might be acceptable under extreme circumstances. When pushed to an extreme stress in an unrelated DE-PL name dispute, several editors chose the Kiev article to make a point. Understandably, I was unhappy about it (I desperately want this to become a better article than it is) but I understand the "consistency and justice for all" logic. Since the intent of the effort was transparently given, I never saw this as foul play and I was simply requesting a cleanup. I was already unhappy about myself reverting the article more than once in a single day (and this was NOT vandalism which I revert comfortably). Approaching or not the 3RR limit I simply didn't want to continue this myself. Therefore I requested a self-reversion from the other side, but another user just went ahead and reverted even sooner. In any case, if we can get together and improve the city article, including the Kijów Voivodship period, I would be eager to give to it whatever time I have. Cheers, -Irpen 02:15, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

Second round from user talk:Nohat
You have wrote: Having the Polish name for Kiev as the third piece of information in the article is ridiculous

Compare this two examples:

 * Gdansk was part of Prussia/Germany in 1793–1806, 1815–1919 (and 100 years the city was occupied by the Teutonic Knights).

 * Kiev was part of Poland since 1569 until 1671. Before that, it was part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which was in personal union with Poland.--Witkacy 19:29, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * So? The Polish name for Kiev is not so important it needs to be the third piece of information in the article. It's a midly-relevant ancillary piece of information that can go in the section on the Polish history of the city. Nohat 20:34, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * So I guess, you have the same opinion about German names in articles of Polish cities? --Witkacy 22:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * "justice"? Vuvar1 23:59, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * The relationship between German and Polish names is very different from Polish and Ukrainian names. Their histories are not analogous, so the comparison is not apt. Nohat 00:53, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * That is not true- situation is the the same (old borders, settlement). Why do you think that "their histories are not analogous"- could you explain me this, please. Vuvar1 01:07, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * First, I want to note that changing other articles to prove a point elsewhere on Wikipedia is bad form (see WP:POINT). Nohat 02:49, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Is good form. It's actually the famous Reductio ad absurdum. Space Cadet 03:53, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * What I mean by "their histories are not analogous" is that the history of German names for Polish cities being used in English is not the same as the history of Polish names for Ukrainian cities being used in English. It is true that there are parallels in the history of the cities, but those similarities extend only to the histories of the cities, and not to the histories of the cities' names as used in English. The name Kijów is never and has never been used in English, so it does not need to be included at the top of the article. This is not the case for German names of Polish cities; for example "Danzig" has a long history in English of being used to refer to Gdansk. The situation is not the same for Kijów, so the fact that German names of Polish cities are included in the articles about those cities on Wikipedia does not make a very convincing argument that Polish names should be included in the articles about Ukrainian cities in Wikipedia. Should we include Japanese names of Chinese cities? The answer is no, because we should only include alternative names where they have a demonstrable history of being used in English. Note: this only applies to including the names in the very beginning of the article. Where relevant in the discussion of the history of cities, the historical foreign names should be included. Nohat 02:49, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * So- what with Russian names in these atricles (Russian isn't oficial language in Ukraine)?Vuvar1 07:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * There is a large minority of Russian speakers presently in Ukraine. There is only a tiny number of Polish speakers in Ukraine. The Russian name is relevant. The Polish name is not. Nohat 07:20, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The usage of foreign names in English language has nothing to do with it. Ideally all foreign names should be mentioned only once in history section, native name up front, and the English name consistently throughout the article about the city and related articles. Space Cadet 03:53, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The name Kijów is never and has never been used in English, so it does not need to be included at the top of the article.

1. Actually "Kijow" is used in English even today in historical context. (see google) 2. Where do you have the information from, that the name "Kijow" was never used in English? I guess the name was used in different (often misspelled) forms (like in the case of Gdansk) --Witkacy 09:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"First, I want to note that changing other articles to prove a point elsewhere on Wikipedia is bad form (see WP:POINT)."

The Polish name was removed by User:Mkweise (Folks, let's not have ANOTHER Gdanzig...articles go under the current official name of cities, alright? )--Witkacy 09:48, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"There is a large minority of Russian speakers presently in Ukraine. There is only a tiny number of Polish speakers in Ukraine. The Russian name is relevant. The Polish name is not"

See your edit on (Russian spelling not relevant in first line of article, added to bottom)--Witkacy 09:29, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC), Vuvar1 14:55, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * First, a person is entitled to change an opinion on the subject. Personally, I allowed myself to change my opinion when convinced by other editor (see for example this). Second, if one wants to dig hard trying to find "true motives" of the editor, it is important not to jump to conclusions too fast. The arguments should be judged on their own merit. In the recent arguing about Kijow in the first line, I tried to answer specific points brought up by the editors who were inserting Kijow. I didn't invoke any hints that this may be a part of the more global campaign (see Wikipedia_talk:Polish_Wikipedians%27_notice_board), no matter what I think about it. I suggest we move on from this and write a chapter of Kijów Voivodship part of the city history (this is in support of Nohat). -Irpen 18:56, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

 * At this point, I'm ambivalent about the Russian name appearing in the first sentence—on the one had, it seems relevant because the English name may be based on the Russian name, and there are many Russian speakers still in Ukraine. On the other hand, its presence seems to make Polish nationalists and their apologists jealous and makes them want to put in a very old and not-widely-used name too because excluding it seems somehow "unfair" or whatever. A well-written article places relevant and important facts first, and less relevant and less important facts later. However, telling Polish nationalists that the Polish name of Ukrainian cities is not particularly relevant seems to invoke a particularly unpleasant breed of defensive response that involves repeating the same tired arguments and making weak ad hominem attacks in a misguided quest to force anyone who opposes them into a logical contradiction that might somehow force them to admit that they were wrong. I'm sorry your feelings are hurt or your pride is wounded, but cry me a river. If something is not relevant, it shouldn't go in the first sentence, regardless of how many people's feelings it hurts. The Polish name Kijov is old and not widely used and doesn't need to go in the first sentence. So get over it. Nohat 19:29, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * "to make Polish nationalists" - "However, telling Polish nationalists that"
 * ... racist remarks. Your POV and arguments should be based on logic not polonophobia (espacilly for a member of the ArbCom).--Witkacy 15:35, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nohat, I respect your mixed feelings on the issue. I just want to let you know that I wrote on this subject earlier (and added more to this lately) at Talk:Kiev. Cheers, -Irpen 19:50, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with Irpen. 100 years in PLC deserves a mention in lead and a section/subarticle, but the very name Kijów, as an alternative spelling - not necessarily. I wouldn't add it and I wouldn't remove it. Perhaps a compromise would be to link the Kijów Voivodship and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from history section of the lead? On another note, Noah, while I agree we are seeing some Polish nationalism at work, we are also seeing equally unhelpfull Ukrainian/other nationalism at work from some other users, so I'd advice you to avoid accusing only one side of this argument of such motives.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:25, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * The WP as a whole is certainly prone to many sorts of nationalisms at work, no doubt. BTW, I am the first who intervenes when I notice any, but especially RU or UA, nationalism bias makes it into the articles. However, the particular issue at hand (Kijow in the first line) was provoked specifically by the hurt feeling of the Polish national pride (and mostly from a completely different conflict which is especially annoying) and the other recent footprint in the Minsk article would better be addressed too.
 * A general talk that any nationalism is bad and should be opposed is a trivial issue not worth repeating. I think that this particular case was resolved entirely appropriately on its own merit. When one sees other nationalisms in other articles or, particularly RU or UA nationalism in Kiev article, please correct it or raise the issue and we will all correct it. Let's move on. -Irpen 20:06, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * P.S. Nohat, sorry if continued usage your talk page for this rant annoys you :)

Black Book
Nohat, why did you delete that page? Was it listed on vfd? It was a project page and I'm sure it should be there. Whether your remarks on Talk:Kiev are biased or not is another issue, but I believe that you should've at least consulted the author of that project before you deleted it. Please be so kind as to explain why was the page deleted. Halibutt 23:18, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

 * Also, I decided to start that archive to avoid listing all of the users involved on RfC or any other page. I simply wanted to keep the things civil and canalized, without having to resort to all the painful dispute resolution process, accusations and so on. Your reaction was certainly not what I expected. Halibutt 23:21, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

 * A "Black Book" which exists solely to vilify users who you disagree with consistutes personal attacks. The page was deleted per Remove personal attacks. If you have a problem with a user's behavior, the proper course of action is to list that user on Requests for comment. Compiling a list of users who have said things you disagree with, particularly if that list is not kept in user space, and demanding they apologize and rescind their comments in some kind of kangaroo court is totally unacceptable. The dispute resolution process exists for a reason, and creating an end-run around it is neither appropriate nor warranted. Nohat 23:25, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Nohat, please, calm down. Nobody has nothing against you and nobody is demanding anything from you. We're all friends here. Witkacy noted that that you assumed those who oppose you are nationalists, which in where I live is rather a serious offence. Personally I'm pretty sure you meant nothing wrong, but still, your remarks could be treated as biased.

 * Anyway, do you really believe that starting an ArbCom or RfC every time someone assumes bad faith is a good idea? That's what I would call escalation of the conflict. And that's what we're trying to avoid. Of course, if you insist Witkacy could do that, but perhaps there is a way to make you cooperate? Halibutt 04:27, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't think I have done anything wrong, and I don't believe this situation merits further comment by any of the parties involved. I'm not the one who created a "black book" for publically harassing anyone who says something that might be construed as insulting to Poles. That's escalation of conflict.

 * As for the issue at question, don't expect me to rescind any statements I made about nationalism, because that's exactly what was going on at the Kiev article. I called Witkacy on his disingenuousness and it smarted. I see no need to make concessions for his wounded pride. Hopefully next time everyone will follow the Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point guidelines, as I suggested previously.

 * As for RfC, I heartily encourage Witkacy or anyone else to start one against me. Then it will become apparent to everyone that this whole thing is a farce. Nohat 05:01, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Third round user talk:Witkacy
Hi, when you see things like Kiev, please "just say no", and just turn around and walk away and work on adding good content somewhere else. Thanks! Noel (talk) 19:45, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, you are right :) But... some users removing Polish names in articles of cities which once were part of Poland, and on the other hand they adding foreign names in articles of Polish cities... And even in such non-important like Rumia.--Witkacy 22:55, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, as they say, "Rome wasn't built in a day"! Yes, I agree, the behaviour you mention (adding foreign names in articles of Polish cities) is not helpful, and we certainly need to bring that under control. (As you will recall, I have tried to do some of this in the past, e.g. with Zivinbudas).
 * But on your other point ("removing Polish names in articles of cities which once were part of Poland"), I don't quite agree. You need to distinguish between removing mention that Kiev was once part of Poland (something I would definitely strongly oppose) from removing the Polish name for Kiev - a name which is, for most English-speakers, not useful. I mean, really, where am I going to run across the Polish name of Kiev, in anything I'm going to read? Noel (talk) 16:09, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi, thanks again and if you feel like improving the coverage of 200+ years history of Kiev you were referring to, I will do my best to help. -Irpen 06:34, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

Fourth round user talk:Irpen and user talk:Space Cadet
''from article edit history
 * ''Read the talk pages, Space Cadet!
 * ''I did twice, so? You have the Russian name, so you should have the Polish name, as well!

Reasons why we have a ru name and not a pl name is specifically discussed at the Talk:Kiev. Please care to respond before reverting. -Irpen 03:20, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

Delete the unnecessary Russian name and none of my homies will bother you no more.Space Cadet 03:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I repeat, the issue of the Russian name being necessary or unnecessary is discussed at the ref above. If you have anything to say about this, please respond there before bringing havoc to the article. There is a bunch of reasonable people there and if you make a good case, the PL name may get through. The arguments at the level "if RU, then PL" without explanation and response to the points already raised there are unhelpful. -Irpen 03:44, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

Stop the exadge! As if mentioning Kijów brought an actual "havoc" to anything! Shyaa...riiight! Logically if Danzig belongs in the Gdansk article, then Kijów belongs in Kiev! Unless you agree with the Britannica convention: current English name throughout, native name bolded in the first sentence, nothing else, unless in the "history" section. In the above case, however, help in getting rid of German names from Gdansk, Szczecin and Wroclaw articles. Your support of logic and common sense will be appreciated. Sincerely, Space Cadet 04:06, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hey, what you are doing is exactly a WP:Point: "If Kiev than Kijow" and the opposite: "Will remove Kijow in you remove Kiev" and then too "If Danzig, than Kijow". Please note from the WP:Point page "If you must..." section:

If after reading this you are still adamant in your desire to pursue a campaign of illustrative editing to demonstrate your point (as you might if your attempts at reasoned discussion have failed), please do so in a responsible fashion that minimizes the ill effects of your campaign. Bear in mind these key points:

 * Think through your edits for a while before enacting them. If applicable, wait until you're sober.
 * Stop your campaign once your point is made. Don't engage in an edit war to save content you added for rhetorical reasons.  People can still see what you did in the page history, and you can link to an old version of the page if you wish to draw attention to it from a talk page.
 * Clean up after yourself, reverting content and listing pages for deletion as necessary once you're done making your point.
 * Like leaving a restaurant without tipping in societies where tipping is customary, doing this often makes it clear that you're a boor.

I don't want to revert for now. I think you should cleanup after you tried to make a point. And, BTW, you didn't have to because you can very well attempt "a reasoned discussion" as the guideline suggest! Once again, I invite you to respond at the talk:Kiev if you have anything to they on the issue itself. -Irpen 04:16, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

Dear Irpen, I'm not on any campaign per se, except of course the "campaign for logic, consistency and justice for all". Your "sobriety" remark was very rude. Your consistent ignoring of my point, only a little annoying. Tell me what you think about the way Britannica handles those issues. Space Cadet 04:40, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The advise above was a quote from the WP guidelines WP:Point directly applicable here, and of course I have no reason to think that you were literally not sober. It was part of the phrase: "Think through your edits for a while..." Read the whole thing again if you please.

I am not ignoring your point? I am trying to convinse you to express it clearly at the talk:Kiev page. I have no opinion on Britannica's policy. I would like to stick to the issue at hand which is: (1) should the Kiev article have a RU name in the first line, and (2) should it have the PL name there, or is the RU name alone a sufficient reason for a PL name, or whether the German/Polish naming dispute somehow affects how the Kiev article should look like. If you have anything to say about those issues, please use the talk:Kiev page. Several people, including user:Witkacy, wrote there. You choose to ignore the talk page and simply revert. The justification you give, your quote: "if Danzig belongs in the Gdansk article, then Kijów belongs in Kiev!" and "Delete the unnecessary Russian name and none of my homies will bother you" clearly shows that this is a WP:Point issue. If making a point re the Russian name and an unrelated Gdansk issues is only part of your reasons, please state the rest of at the talk page in response to what's already said there. I am only calling on you reverting your editing yourself if you are motivated solely by WP:Point-like reasons. I have no problem to discuss the issue itself. I hope you will agree to stop this revert war. If you please help improving the Polish section of Kiev history I would really appreciate that. -Irpen 06:30, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

 * Just a small point of order: Britannica does mention multiple names. Please take a look at, for example: Szczecin, Vilnius, Kiev etc.

 * Also, since you are engaged in many edit wars over city names, I wonder if you could comment on the ideas discussed in Naming conventions/Vote on city naming. Since so many of these edit wars are really fought on the basis: "I have to include name A in B, since name C is included in D" and various other variations, we are trying to develop a uniform standard for including names, which would hopefully keep everybody happy. If that is at all possible. Balcer 07:04, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are you adding Kijow to the top of the article because you think it belongs there, or just because you're making a point about Gdansk/Danzig or some German names somewhere? If you have an issue with something in the article about Gdansk, deal with it there and don't cause trouble elsewhere. If you think this belongs in Kiev, then explain your edits at talk:Kiev before starting a revert war. Give us a reason to believe that you're not simply vandalizing the article to make a point. —Michael Z. 2005-06-10 13:54 Z

I guess I wasn't sober, yesterday.Space Cadet 09:52, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks again, I just posted a message at Talk:Kiev. Regards, Irpen 02:29, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Irpen/Kijów in Kiev article


text:
Talk:Mayfair (disambiguation)

Wikilink
I found the following below the disambig template and removed it from the page:

Mayfair (andre betydninger)

As a wikilink, it doesn't go anywhere so it didn't seem necessary.

Epolk 23:53, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

The Mayfair Magazine
I believe there's an English lifestyle magazine with this name that differs from the porn magazine mentioned in this article. It was in existence at least as far back as 1878. Praemonitus (talk) 02:38, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

 * But now the very real, and more recent, porn magazine seems to have been edited out entirely, which seems to be someone's rather prudish whim. 174.239.56.113 (talk) 18:35, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguating phrase
With, reverted my addition of "(film)" as "unnecessary". However, the example "Harvey (film)" is given right at the top of MOS:DABPIPING so I believe it is necessary. I've made a later edit but let this be per WP:BRD. 85.67.32.244 (talk) 15:35, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * ...and in doing so "action drama film" could be shortened to "action drama". I should have noticed that the first time. 85.67.32.244 (talk) 15:45, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You . 85.67.32.244 (talk) 15:55, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mayfair (disambiguation)