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Trinity Grammar School, Kew

Trinity Grammar School, Kew (abbreviated to TGS) is an independent, Anglican day and for boys, located in Kew in Melbourne, Australia.

The school was founded at a meeting of the vestry of Holy Trinity Church, Kew on 14 November 1902. It opened in 1903, operating out of the Holy Trinity Church. Trinity is a founding member of the Associated Grammar Schools of Victoria (AGSV). The school has over 1500 students and approximately 20 boarding students.

History
Trinity Grammar School, Kew was founded by members of the Holy Trinity parish vestry in 1902 and opened the next year. The school started in the parish hall of Holy Trinity Church with 23 boys. Rev. Edward Taffs was the first headmaster, although Rev. G. M. Long soon succeeded him.

In 1906, the school purchased a property, "Roxeth" (now Henty House), a small distance to the south of the church, on the corner of Wellington Street and Charles Street. Trinity quickly built Arnold Hall, the first classroom block, completing it in 1907. In the same year, Trinity was registered as a public school of the Church of England. The school leased "Molina", a property on the other side of Charles Street and the site of the former Kew High School in 1908. In 1909, the school built a science laboratory beside Arnold Hall.

Two years later, Long left the school to become Bishop of Bathurst and Rev. A. W. Tonge was appointed headmaster. A second classroom building was built, now demolished to make way for the Richard and Elizabeth Tudor Centre for Contemporary Learning. In 1917 Tonge left the school to serve as an AIF chaplain and Trinity appointed a new headmaster, Frank Shann, who would lead the school for the next two and a half decades. Under his tenure, the school grew to a total of 245 boys and many buildings were built, including the now demolished War Memorial Library, the Preparatory (junior) School classroom building and the Health Pavilion. "Molina" was bought from its owner, John Henning Thompson, as was the neighbouring property, "Elsinore". The properties were subsequently renamed in 1925, "Molina" becoming Merritt House, "Elsinore" Roberts House and "Roxeth" Henty House. Frank Shann died in post in 1943.

Alfred Bright became headmaster upon Frank Shann's death. The school built a second storey for the Preparatory School in 1952, and in the following year, the Parents' and Friends' Hall, a multipurpose venue, was built between Merritt House and Xavier College. In 1959, on Alfred Bright's retirement, John Leppitt was appointed Headmaster. The school advanced greatly during his time as headmaster, the number of students reaching 812. The Robertson Science and Administration Building was opened in 1959 and extended later on, and two years later, the Junior School building was extended to almost meet Roberts House, providing art and music facilities. In 1968, the Shann Building was constructed between the Robertson Building and Arnold Hall and a new sports facility, the Cornell Gymnasium, was opened.

At the beginning of the 1970s, Trinity purchased land beside Lake Eppalock, near Bendigo, opening the Leppitt Outdoor Education Centre in 1973, named after the headmaster. In 1975, the boarding house, which had been run in Merritt House, closed after more than 60 years. The War Memorial Library was demolished in favour of a new classroom building, the three-storey Tonge Building, and the library relocated to one floor of the Shann Building. After twenty years as headmaster, John Leppitt retired in 1979. The new headmaster, Don Marles, continued the development of the school with a new swimming pool in 1980 and the renovation of the original science laboratories housed in the Shann Building, now renamed the Bright Laboratories. Merritt House, the former boarding house, was converted into a music school.

As a result of new buildings constructed over the previous two decades, the school sought further land for outdoor sports facilities. Trinity purchased land in Bulleen, near the Yarra River, and opened the Marles Playing Fields there in 1983. These facilities continue to be used today on a regular basis.

1989 saw the building of another classroom building, the now demolished Poynter Building. The tuck shop, the original canteen, was closed in 1990 and a new cafeteria opened on the ground floor of the Shann Building. Two years later, the school built a dedicated chapel for weekly services (previously, students had to attend services at Holy Trinity Church, where the school began). Don Marles retired the same year, replaced by Peter Crawley.

The school was interested in the development of curriculum and saw the possibilities being opened up in business and industry by the use of computer technology. Nearby MLC had recently introduced laptop computers for the personal use by the students as an everyday part of their learning. Trinity, under the leadership of the new headmaster, Peter Crawley, decided to introduce a similar program at Trinity from the start of 1994. However, the new program did not use the computers in the same way as had been the MLC experience. Trinity decided to use a business model and became the first school in the world to adopt the use of Microsoft Office within an educational setting. This attracted the attention of Microsoft in the US and they sent a film crew to the school to record the way the school was using the laptops. In 1995 the headmaster received a letter from Bill Gates, CEO of Microsoft, commending him for his influence on American educators in the area of the use of technology in education. In 1993, Trinity and nearby Ruyton Girls' School introduced the Coordinate Program, whereby co-educational classes for Years 11 and 12 are conducted across the two schools. In 1996, the school purchased the Kew Municipal Offices, after the City of Kew was amalgamated into the City of Boroondara, in order to further expand its facilities. Two years later, it opened as the Peter Crawley Centre for the Arts. Peter Crawley resigned in the same year accepting the position as headmaster of Knox Grammar School in Sydney. In 1999, Richard Tudor (former deputy headmaster of Melbourne Grammar School) was appointed as headmaster and the co-educational Early Learning Centre was opened.

21st century
In 2000, a group of Trinity students instigated and organised a visit to Melbourne by Nelson Mandela. Additionally in that year, the school began using wireless technology for their computers and, in the following year, Trinity began the construction of the Science and Technology Building to replace the Bright Laboratories. This opened in 2003, the year in which Trinity celebrated its centenary year.

The school opened a new gymnasium, the Peter McIntyre Sports Centre, to complement the old Cornell Sports Gym, and another block of forested land was purchased at Licola, to complement the Outdoor Education Centre at Lake Eppalock. In 2005 the school also purchased the former Bib Stillwell car dealership showroom, on the corner of Charles Street and Cotham Road, which is currently used as a multipurpose venue, with impending development of the site in the future. In recent years, the school was given money to further extend and renovate the old Kew Municipal Offices. This included a junior school hall (named the South Room) and a new facade to the building. This, as nearly all new buildings, was designed by former student Peter McIntyre. The building still has heritage features with some doors saying "Kew Town Hall" and "City of Kew".

In 2011, the Poynter Building was demolished to make room for the Richard and Elizabeth Tudor Centre for Contemporary Learning. The building was opened in March 2013 by The Hon. Alex Chernov, the Governor of Victoria. It contains a multi-level library, a cafe and the Year 12 area.

Trinity has developed a reputation as a high-achieving school in the Victorian Certificate of Education (VCE) and is known for a well-balanced approach to single-sex education. In 2014, Michael Davies (former deputy headmaster of St Kevin's College) took the position of headmaster, succeeding the highly regarded Richard Tudor.

Towards the end of 2015 the school undertook the demolition of Arnold Hall (to be replaced by the Centre for Business & Social Enterprise). The new building was opened in March 2017 by The Hon. Josh Frydenberg, Federal Member for Kooyong, and includes eight classrooms as well as a lecture hall. In 2017, the Junior School introduced the International Baccalaureate Primary Years Programme (PYP). The school also introduced Cambridge University's International General Certificate of Secondary Education (IGCSE) in Years 9 and 10 English.

In November 2017, Old Trinity Grammarians' Association president David Baumgartner wrote to the school's leadership, accusing it of being too preoccupied with academic results, fundraising and building projects under Michael Davies' leadership. Baumgartner said the school needed to return to its focus on the "holistic development" and wellbeing of students. He said that there was a "resurgent undercurrent of frustration and anger" among the school community. It was revealed in 2018 that 152 staff had left the school since Davies became headmaster.

Following the dismissal of deputy headmaster Rohan Brown in March 2018, many members of the school community – including current and past students, parents and teachers – expressed extreme discontentment with the direction Michael Davies and the School Council were taking the school and demanded changes be made to the way the school operates, including the dismissal of Davies and the council. There were several large-scale protests from students regarding the dismissal of Rohan Brown. Brown was reinstated on 11 April before the commencement of Term 2 after the school's independent review showed that he was unjustly removed from his role despite breaching the school's code of conduct.

Michael Davies announced his resignation on 15 May 2018, effective from the end of Term 2. The School Council announced that Phil De Young, former principal of Carey Baptist Grammar School, would be appointed interim headmaster while a search for a new headmaster took place. Almost the entirety of the School Council was replaced following the events of Terms 1 and 2. De Young and the new School Council led a process of community consultation and reconciliation to restore the school to a state of harmony. De Young said in a speech early on: "Clearly, it's been a tough six months for the school, but that's all behind us. Let's move forward; let's do so with confidence, with passion, and let's do so in a positive way." In March 2019, Trinity announced that Adrian Farrer, principal of Cathedral College Wangaratta, would commence in 2020 as the school's 12th headmaster.

Headmasters
Trinity Grammar School has had 12 principals or formerly headmasters since the school was established in 1902.

Co-curricular
Trinity is known for its extensive co-curricular program.

House system
A significant part of school life is the house system. Each house is named after a notable contributor to Trinity.

About the House Patrons:

 * G.C. Arnold: insurer and financier; member of School Council.
 * H.O. Cowen: physician; founding member of School Council; member of Holy Trinity Church; a founder of St George's Hospital.
 * A.O. Henty: solicitor, long-serving chairman of the School Council
 * Archdeacon W.G. Hindley: Vicar of Holy Trinity Church; first School Council chairman.
 * W. Kent Hughes: surgeon; founding member of School Council; fought in World War I.
 * J.K. Merritt: importer, company director and politician; member and later chairman of School Council.
 * W.J. Roberts: founding member of School Council; member of Melbourne Stock Exchange; Council member of Melbourne's Anglican diocese.
 * Canon G. Sutton: Vicar of Holy Trinity Church; member and later chairman of School Council.

Outreach
Trinity is highly regarded for its outreach and social justice programs, which are organised under the aegis of Harambee (a Swahili word meaning "all together"). The program has three main ministries: East Africa, Indigenous Australians and local ministry. Activities include immersion trips to Africa and Outback Australia, working with community organisations focused on mental illness, and a variety of fundraising events for numerous causes.

Outdoor education
The Outdoor Education program includes participation in bushwalking, sailing, canoeing, kayaking, cycling, first aid, navigation, cooking and rafting. The program is compulsory for students from Year 7 to Year 10. Camps are based around school properties at Lake Eppalock, Lake Nillahcootie and Licola. Trinity also offers The Duke of Edinburgh's Award.

Sport
Trinity was a founding and is a continuing member of the Associated Grammar Schools of Victoria (AGSV).

AGSV premierships
Trinity has won the following AGSV premierships.

 * Athletics (29) – 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1946, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1995, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018
 * Badminton (1) – 2009
 * Basketball (5) – 1996, 2000, 2001, 2006, 2010
 * Cricket (17) – 1934, 1935, 1948, 1956, 1958, 1960, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1995, 1996, 1998, 2007, 2013, 2019, 2022, 2024
 * Football (8) – 1935, 1945, 1946, 1948, 1949, 1969, 1976, 2012
 * Hockey (8) – 1990, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2015, 2016, 2019, 2021
 * Soccer (2) – 2000, 2018
 * Squash (2) – 2008, 2009
 * Swimming (5) – 1959, 1960, 1962, 1963, 1964
 * Table Tennis (1) – 2001
 * Tennis (17) – 1921, 1922, 1932, 1933, 1934, 1936, 1937, 1948, 1961, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 2007, 2011, 2024
 * Volleyball (5) – 2006, 2008, 2014, 2017, 2020

Campuses
Trinity Grammar School, Kew has five campuses across Victoria. These include:

 * Kew (Main Campus)
 * The main campus covers all corners of the intersection of Wellington and Charles Streets in Kew.
 * Bulleen: Marles Playing Fields (Sport grounds)
 * Lake Eppalock: Eppalock Outdoor Education Centre (Outdoor education)
 * Licola (Outdoor education)
 * Nillahcootie (Outdoor education)

Controversies
In 2016, Mark Watson, a former employee of the school whose work involved caring for boarding school students, was committed to stand trial over 41 historical sex offences against five boys. The abuse is alleged to have taken place between 1975 and 1978, and is the present subject of a compensation claim.

In January 2017, the school was again brought to prominence over allegations that senior members of the school community – including Headmaster Michael Davies – knew of abuse allegations against former teacher Christopher Howell when it sent a tribute letter praising Howell's "extraordinary legacy" to the school after his death in 2016. This action, which was described as "stupid and insensitive" by lawyers representing Howell's victims, attracted a great deal of controversy to the school.

In November 2017, Old Trinity Grammarians' Association president David Baumgartner wrote to the school's leadership, accusing it of being too preoccupied with high ATARs, fundraising and building projects under Michael Davies' leadership. Baumgartner said the school needed to return to its focus on the "holistic development" and wellbeing of students. He said that there was a "resurgent undercurrent of frustration and anger" among the school community. "There is too much inward focus on things like buildings, fundraising, marketing, ATAR excellence, Cambridge schooling program, etc," Baumgartner wrote in his open letter which made its way to hundreds of parents' inboxes. He said he was also disappointed by the school's treatment of many respected and revered teachers. "The constant change of staff and the disrespectful way in which it occurs seriously concerns me," he said (it was revealed in 2018 that 152 staff had left the school since Davies became headmaster ). Baumgartner, who is also a former parent at the school, warned that the school should not be run like a business and suggested that its culture would start to break down.

2018
In March 2018, the school council sacked deputy headmaster Rohan Brown following a disciplinary issue which the council felt was "in contravention of school policy and was also inconsistent with community expectations in this day and age". The Age revealed that the dismissal was a result of Brown cutting a student's hair on school photo day as the hair did not meet the school's appearance policy. Some members of the school community – including current and past students, teachers and parents – were outraged by his dismissal and protests (which hundreds of students took part in) subsequently occurred on school grounds.

At a meeting held by the school council to address the community (attended by in excess of 800 people), some members of the community expressed their lack of faith in the council, speculating that the circumstances regarding Brown's dismissal had political motivations and asked for the council to step down and be replaced by a democratically elected body. A large portion of the school community – including a representative of the student whose hair was cut – demanded that Brown be reinstated. Both Roderick Lyle (the school council chairman) and Michael Davies promised to consider the issue and reflect on the necessary actions. Following a town hall meeting of 13 March, which organisers said was attended by well over 1500 members of the school community, in addition to an online petition with over 6900 signatures, three members of the school council, including Lyle, tendered their resignations. Previous council chairman Robert Utter was installed as chairman, and an independent review of Brown's sacking was announced (led by former Federal Court judge Raymond Finkelstein QC and barrister Renee Enbom).

However, the appointment of Utter sparked only more controversy as it was viewed by many that Utter was an unacceptable choice for chairman as he was an existing council member prior to the incident, that he was partially responsible for the "cultural shift" that the school had faced in recent years, and that – after 24 years on the council – he was no longer connected with the school community. The OTGA called for Utter to resign, strongly urging an independent chairman be appointed.

Brown was reinstated on 11 April before the commencement of Term 2 after the school's independent review showed that he was unjustly removed from his role despite breaching the school's code of conduct.

Then, on 15 May, Michael Davies announced his resignation from the role of headmaster, sending out a letter stating that it came "after a great deal of thought and discussion with [his] family". He left his job at the end of term, on 29 June. The school council was almost entirely replaced on 5 June 2018. A former principal of Carey Baptist Grammar School, Phil De Young, was appointed interim headmaster until a permanent one could be found.

Notable alumni
Notable alumni of Trinity Grammar School include:
 * Phil Anderson, cyclist
 * Hugh Beasley, AFL Footballer for the Brisbane Lions Football Club
 * Harold Bolitho, Professor of Japanese history at Harvard University
 * Martin Boyd, author, member of the prolific Boyd Family
 * John Bunting, Australian High Commissioner to the UK
 * Mark Birrell, politician
 * Paul Bryce, Australian rules footballer
 * Robert Percival Cook, academic and expert on cholesterol
 * Tom Cutler, AFL Footballer for the Brisbane Lions and Essendon Football Clubs
 * Len Darling, Australian test cricketer
 * Scott Ferrier, dual Olympian in the decathlon
 * Josh Gibson, Australian Rules footballer for the North Melbourne and Hawthorn Football Clubs
 * Todd Goldstein, Australian Rules footballer for the North Melbourne Football Club
 * Jim Higgs, Australian test cricketer and former Australian selector
 * Clyde Holding, former Victorian State Opposition Leader
 * Jay Kennedy Harris, Australian Rules footballer for the Melbourne Football Club
 * Wilfrid Kent Hughes, politician
 * Michael Kidd, Professor of Primary Care Reform at The Australian National University
 * Ian Johnson, managing director of Channel Seven, Melbourne
 * Jamshid "Jumps" Khadiwhala, musician (The Cat Empire)
 * Nick Larkey, AFL Footballer for the North Melbourne Football Club
 * Gavin Long, academic, journalist, literary critic, military historian, and war correspondent
 * David Mackay, Australian Rules footballer listed at the Adelaide Football Club
 * Thomas Mayne, inventor of Milo
 * Peter McIntyre, architect
 * Robert McIntyre, dual Olympian in alpine skiing
 * Albert Keith Outen, VFL footballer with Footscray and VFA footballer with Williamstown
 * Scot Palmer, Australian Rules Football journalist
 * Gerald Patterson, Former World Number 1 in tennis; won four grand slams including Wimbledon
 * John Perceval, painter, potter, and sculptor
 * Konrad Pesudovs, SHARP Professor of Optometry and Vision Science at The University of New South Wales
 * Luke Power, Australian Rules footballer and co-captain for the Brisbane Lions and Greater Western Sydney Giants
 * Sam Power, Australian Rules footballer for the Western Bulldogs and North Melbourne football clubs
 * Peter Rowsthorn, comedy actor
 * Mark Rowsthorn, businessman
 * Arthur Rylah, politician and attorney-general
 * Wayne Schwass, Australian Rules footballer for the North Melbourne and Sydney Swans Football Clubs
 * Anthony Scott, AFL Footballer for the Western Bulldogs Football Club
 * Andrew Smith, field hockey player, Olympic bronze medalist at the 2008 Summer Olympics
 * Ross Stevenson, Melbourne radio presenter
 * Robert Timms, businessman and founder of Robert Timms Coffee
 * Adam Tomlinson, Australian Rules footballer for the Greater Western Sydney and Melbourne Football Clubs
 * Dom Tyson, Australian Rules footballer for the Greater Western Sydney, Melbourne and North Melbourne Football Clubs
 * Stephen Wallis, Australian Rules footballer for the Western Bulldogs Football Club
 * Ray Weinberg, Olympic athlete, coach and broadcaster
 * Luke McDonald, AFL Footballer
 * Hoa Xuande, actor

title: Trinity Grammar School, Kew


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Prince Nagaya

Nagaya (長屋王 Nagaya-no-ōkimi) (684 – 20 March 729) was a politician of the Nara period and an imperial prince of Japan, a son of Prince Takechi (grandson of Emperor Tenmu).

His father was Prince Takechi and his mother Princess Minabe (a daughter of Emperor Tenji and Empress Genmei's sister). He married Princess Kibi (his cousin, a daughter of Empress Genmei and Empress Genshō's sister).

He was substantially influential in politics owing to his membership of the Imperial family of the most noble birth, and there were no other competitive Imperial members at that time. A large residence was allocated to him in a prestigious part of Heijō-kyō.

The Fujiwara clan were the most powerful competitors of Nagaya. Fujiwara no Fuhito, the leader of the house, had been the most powerful courtier in the court in the days when Japan was under the reign of Empress Genshō, a cousin of Nagaya's. After Fuhito's death in 720, Nagaya seized complete power within the court. This power shift was the source of later conflicts between him and Fuhito's four sons (Muchimaro, Fusasaki, Maro and Umakai) in the reign of Emperor Shōmu.

In 729, the four sons charged him with a false crime and Nagaya received the death penalty. He was forced to commit suicide. His wife, Princess Kibi, and his children were killed at the same time.

Wives and children
Parents Consorts and issue
 * Father: Prince Takechi (高市皇子, Takechi no ōji, c. 654 – 13 August 696), Emperor Tenmu's son
 * Mother: Princess Minabe (御名部皇女), Emperor Tenji's daughter
 * Consort (Hi): Imperial Princess Kibi (吉備内親王, 686–729), Prince Kusakabe's daughter
 * Son: Prince Kashiwade (膳夫王, d. 16 March 729)
 * Son: Prince Katsuragi (葛木王, d. 729)
 * Son: Prince Kagitori (鉤取王, d. 729)
 * Consort (Hi): Lady Ishikawa (石川夫人), daughter of Ishikawa no Mushina (石川虫名)
 * Second Son: Prince Kuwata (桑田王, d.729)
 * Consort (Hi): Fujiwara no Nagako (藤原長娥子), daughter of Fujiwara no Fuhito (藤原不比等)
 * Fifth Son: Prince Asukabe (安宿王)
 * Son: Prince Kibumi (黄文王, d. 757)
 * Son: Prince Yamashiro (Fujiwara no Otosada) (藤原 弟貞, d. 17 October 763)
 * Daughter: Princess Kyōshō (教勝), a nun
 * Consort (Hi): Abe no Ōtoji (安倍大刀自), daughter of Abe no Hironiwa (安倍広庭)
 * Daughter: Princess Kamo (賀茂女王)
 * Unknown mother
 * Son: Prince Kurihara (栗原王)
 * Son: Prince Ankun (安君王)
 * Son: Prince Asazuma (朝妻王)
 * Daughter: Princess Chinu (智努女王)
 * Daughter: Princess Madokata (円方女王, d. 27 January 774)
 * Daughter: Princess Oshimi (忍海女王)
 * Daughter: Princess Ki (紀女王)

Nagaya's Curse
It is said that, as Prince Nagaya was forced to die unreasonably, he bore a grudge against the living after his death. The following are believed to have been the victims of Nagaya's curse:

Muchimaro, Fusasaki, Maro and Umakai, responsible for the prince's death, caught smallpox one after another and eventually all of them died during a major Japanese smallpox epidemic in 737.
 * In 1988, the former site of Nagaya's residence was discovered with many wooden tablets and historic relics on the construction site of a Sogo department store. Sogo did not care and continued construction. Twelve years after the store's completion, Sogo went bankrupt.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Prince Nagaya


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Talk:The Dark Is Rising Sequence

Merge
I have merged the infor from the pages for the indivdual books in the series onto this page. Most of those pages were only stubs, and in this way a fuller artticle will result. I am about to convert the separate pages into redirects. DES 23:55, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

History
To see the history of the text on the individual works, consult the history of the separate articles at Over Sea, Under Stone, The Dark Is Rising, Greenwitch, The Grey King, and Silver on the Tree, all of which are now redirects to the series article. DES 00:06, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I would like it if each of the books to have their own entry, as THE GREY KING does already. that includes THE DARK IS RISING itself (the book, not the cycle named after it). ***Ria777 19:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Old Ones
Are the Old Ones actually immortal? They age, but slowly. Merriman was old, as was The Lady.
 * They are unkillable except by the Old, and High Magics. Aging in and of itself does not mean they will die of old age, and none of them actually do. They also leave the mortal world at the end of Silver on the Tree. All pretty good reasons to call them immortal, methinks.

Who was "The Lady"?
I've been pouring over Welsh, Celtic, and British mythology trying to figure out definitively who the character "The Lady" in the Dark is Rising series is mean to represent. With all the meaning and significance behind all the other characters, I can't believe she's not also significant historically and mythologically. The most obvious guess would be that she's "Morgaine." Or perhaps "Viviane"? Any thoughts?
 * Personally I always thought she was closer to the Lady of the Lake, that is, the elemental essence of England. But that's just me; she's an archetype, something that all those women contain a piece of. -- Metahacker 01:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. She's very much an archetype; in all the time I spent reading the books and studying medieval fantasy of the British Isles etc. etc., I haven't found a single person upon whom she could be based.  She comes across to me as a composite though--guide, protector, but frail.  I'll stop babbling now!  Mohsin.Siddiqui 19:48, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Grail?
I was under the impression that the grail in the stories was not the Holy Grail of legend but a different cup. Applejuicefool 16:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I would have to go back and re-read the books to confirm this, but I believe it was actually the same grail as is referred to in Arthurian myth etc. (Merriman Lyon = Merlin, and so on); generally the Arthurian grail was supposed to be the Christian grail, and so I'd assume it's all in line? Mohsin.Siddiqui 19:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Two years late but I don't think it matters! From Over Sea, Under Stone when Merriman is translating the parchment to the Drews: "...the grail, made in the fashion of the Holy Grail, ...".  It's quite clear that this grail is not the Holy Grail.  I'd change the article if I could think of what to write instead... anyone? Sparrer (talk) 02:35, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Information?/Criticism
While this article is long, I find it to be severely lacking in information. (I came to the article as I wasn't sure if I had ever read the books as a child. I come away from it no more certain, as I can't get much out of this.)  The plot synopsis for each book are bare, consisting mainly of "this book introduces/involves character(s) characcter X, description of character," there's no information on when the books were first published, or who published them. In fact, most of the article seems to be taken up with a list of the characters.

Granted, maybe all this makes sense to someone who has read (or at least recalls) the books, but the article should be useful to those who haven't as well. Just my two cents. g026r 19:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I came looking for the sequence in the Dark Is Rising Sequence. There's a book missing, so I'll add it, but I haven't read it, so I can't give a good synopsis. —19:12, 25 April 2007 134.241.227.62

Random bits
The "Random Tidbits about the Stanton Family" section seems to be more apt as a part or sub-section of the "Characters" section, no? It's really not substantially different from what's included there, and although the characters don't show up in each and every book (neither do the rooks for goodness' sake), they are pretty central to a lot of what goes on across the series. Again, I obviously need to read the series again, but I feel like this change would be a good one. Mohsin.Siddiqui 20:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Double Redirects
I've been trying to remove the links on this page that redirect back to this page and find other double redirects - I didn't realize I wasn't logged in earlier when I made some changes, but those were me as well. Lcarscad 20:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Multiple Changes
1. I think we need a summary for the entire series. 2. I think perhaps a section describing the themes? 3. We need to move the stanton family to the character section 4. We need to decide whether or not we are going to tell those newbury succession people to take a hike or not. We have a standard for the books where we redirect all of the books to this one page. Now The _Grey_King has its own page though because people were concerned about the newbury succession page. But I think that it is too inconsistent. Jpittman 16:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Merriman SPOILER
Although it is important to the overview of the series, need we really reveal Merriman's identity here? These are wonderful books and why spoil Cooper's surprizes for the reader? Kids do read Wikipedia, right? earrach Sept10th,2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Earrach (talk • contribs) 20:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

 * See WP: Spoiler. --Thnidu (talk) 18:23, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Darkisrising.jpg
Image:Darkisrising.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 04:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

 * 2012 Note. Two days later, the contributor of the image slightly revised its file: . That is not exemplary. I don't know whether it is adequate. --P64 (talk) 20:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Gnostic Symbol
Does the symbol seen on some of the covers (circle with two perpendicular lines inside) remind anyone of the Gnostic symbol? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.209.15 (talk) 18:40, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What does the gnostic symbol look like? It hasn't reminded me of it because I don't know what it is. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 22:27, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's a link to the image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Simple_crossed_circle.svg
 * It might not be Gnostic specifically, it just reminded me of the little circle with two crossing lines in it that can be seen on that cover of The Dark Is Rising. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.209.15 (talk) 19:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is just the mandala - the cross in the circle - the design of each "sign" that Will has to collect to put on his belt in Dark is Rising itself - an old symbol used in many religions, including Gnosticism and Buddhism - Abbeybufo  ( talk  •  contribs ) 20:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Will's Sibling Number
In Will's bio, it says that he is the seventh son of a seventh son, yet when I counted his siblings, including Tom, he appears to be the tenth. Does anyone know why this is?Anpan11 (talk) 23:37, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * He's the tenth child but seventh son, that's the difference and what makes him by tradition the 'magic' or 'lucky' one. In this respect girls 'don't count'! Abbeybufo  ( talk  •  contribs ) 13:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Black Rider
I don't think he 'patronises' John Smith's establishment. We only see him there once and later we find out that he didn't know John Smith was an Old One until John gave himself away by talking to Will in the Old Speech... Sparrer (talk) 02:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Surely 'patronises' in this context just means he brings his horse to be shod there? By tradition a smith cannot refuse to shoe a horse which needs shoeing, however much he may be 'for' or 'against' the person bringing the horse. Abbeybufo  ( talk  •  contribs ) 16:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes but there's no indication that it's a regular thing, could be he just happened to be passing. Sparrer (talk) 16:00, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed - the whole point is that a smith by tradition cannot refuse to shoe a horse, whatever he may think of the rider. Equally if a horse need shoeing, its rider [or Rider!] will find the nearest smith. Abbeybufo  ( talk  •  contribs ) 13:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Will's Age
There have been several attempts to change the age of Will Stanton in this article from eleven to fourteen. This is another unfortunate effect of the film, which made the character older, an American, and with fewer siblings [see section on Will's Siblings above]. In the book, which this article is about, events begin on the day before Will's eleventh birthday. Abbeybufo ( talk  •  contribs ) 13:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

 * One mention of Will's age has been revised from 11 to 14 (again).
 * Regarding the film, one cited source --in advance of the film's release-- says he will be thirteen there. It will be good to ascertain 13 or 14 in the film and to add a Note explaining this point.
 * Oh, I will write the Note and say 13 or 14, leave the rest to you. --P64 (talk) 18:45, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.
 * After someone has the details (how old in the movie? also on his birthday?), it may be worthwhile to explain fully in the text section Adaptation, and to refer to that in-text explanation from the other three locations --I don't recall al technical details-- rather than use any footNote as I have done. --P64 (talk) 19:16, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Publication Dates
Shouldn't the titles within the series include the publication dates? I visited this page to find out when this series was published but nowhere (except for a brief reference to The Gray King winning the Newberry Prize in 1976) is there a reference to when these books were written. I know nothing about the series (which is why I was looking it up) or I'd help out here. SophieTorkleson (talk) 02:05, 19 April 2010 (UTC) (ISFDB) gives these publication dates for UK and US first editions. After the first book, the years match, and the US month is earlier where available. In the article we/I call this "almost simultaneous" publication of the sequels, but that is a stretch if the four-month difference for The Grey King is reliable. Publication details seem to me worthwhile in the articles devoted to particular books, perhaps in a section "Publication history". (Talk:The Grey King) --P64 (talk) 20:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Months
 * 1. 1965 ??? UK; US ??? 1966
 * 2. 1973 May UK; US Apr
 * 3. 1974 Jun UK; US ???(Worldcat gives no month; calls the US "first edition")(goodreads gives no month)
 * 4. 1975 Oct UK; US ???(Worldcat also gives no month)(reportedly reviewed 1975-09-28 in The New York Times)(goodreads says "first published July 1st 1975")
 * 5. 1977 Oct UK; US Sep

Explanation of the Welsh in the Rhymes section
I have a reasonable knowledge of Welsh grammar, and the explanation of the odd ?incorrect grammar in the Welsh couplet makes little sense to me, so it is reasonable to assume it means even less to a non-Welsh speaker. The explanation seems a bit laboured and off-the-point (though no doubt written with best intentions.) Would it be reasonable to simply give the translation, and maybe comment that the Welsh used is anomolous, rather than the current passage on the correct usage of the verb Bod? Jellytussle (talk) 20:35, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * since no-one has objected in the last 14 months since I made the above comment, I have edited the section for simplicity.Jellytussle (talk) 16:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Unready Material

 * work in progress imported before emergency save (interrupted)

[...] ✅ --more or less "completed" nine months later; notes deleted or transferred to the next section --P64 (talk) 22:54, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

--P64 (talk) 23:57, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Film adaptation
The lead of this article, which covers both the second book and the whole series, simply makes the The Seeker (film) an adaptation of book two. Section "Film adaptation" reports that it was planned to be an adaptation of the series. That other article simply calls its subject the film "adaptation of the second book in the five-book young adult fantasy series The Dark is Rising by Susan Cooper."

Does the film story essentially amount to Will's discovery of his "Old-Onage" and his acquisition of the six signs, as does the second book story? On the contrary, do the advance of Will to age 14 and the introduction of a love interest constitute some adaptation of the sequel novels? Are any elements of the film clearly drawn from the first book Over Sea, Under Stone? (In turn that article does not mention any film adaptation of the series. It does cover separate radio adaptations of books one and two.)

For contrast or comparison, The Black Cauldron (novel) lead says that it "provided a title and many elements of plot for the only Prydain film, the Disney animated feature The Black Cauldron (film) released in 1985 (below)." Section "Adaptation" says that that book (also the second of five) "was loosely adapted by Walt Disney Productions and released in 1985 as Disney's 25th animated feature film. The Black Cauldron (film) was based primarily on the first two Prydain novels with elements from the others."

It is said of Prydain that there can be no continuing film adaptation of the series. (As for The Lord of the Rings, any subsequent effort would necessarily dispense with what has been done.) Applying that "test" to this case: does The Seeker (film) impinge seriously on film adaptation of either Over Sea, Under Stone or one of its sequels? If so, how? Eg, does it undermine the other stories?

(I have not seen either the Prydain film or the Dark one. I know both from their wikipedia articles only, including some online references by those articles. I know both book twos, and both ones, very well.) --P64 (talk) 17:24, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

 * Today I undid two edits 22 April 2012 98.154.50.138. That editor had inserted (quote):
 * Merriman Lyon is not a tall, white-haired, beak-nosed man; the seeking of the powerful pre-Christian elemental solar wheel signs (a major plot point of the book) is eliminated, etc.
 * The former seems trivial (does it mean the film's Lyon is not tall, white-haired, or beak-nosed?). The latter seems important or vital because the plot is structured in large part by Will's collection of signs.

 * Worthy or not, these observations do not fit as tacked onto the Hodge's distinction of this film from Harry Potter films. Nor do they fit the revision from Cooper's disappointment with "several changes" to "these changes" --because our sources (Adler text and audio versions) do not show specifically what disappointed Cooper except Will's adolescence.

 * By the way, the audio version is worth hearing. The articles (text and audio) include material that should be useful in the biography Susan Cooper, in the film article, and in other sections of this article. --P64 (talk) 23:15, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

copyvio
Aren't the rhymes a copyright violation? Anyway, I don't think the article needs the texts, though it should mention the musical setting. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 02:17, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

 * I agree twice: maybe violation and not necessary.
 * Some quotation of poetry will be useful, however, if it is developed regarding Cooper's use of poetry/rhyme or use of Welsh language (but I don't know either can be done without WP:OR).
 * The first stanza will be useful --and usable without WP:COPYVIO, i think-- if there is anything to be said about "the powerful pre-Christian elemental solar wheel signs" (quoting what I reverted in section Film adaptation; see immediately above).
 * --P64 (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

The Grey King
Today I revised The Grey King heavily, altho limited to the lead, infobox, and footer. (Among winners of the U.S. Newbery Medal it may be the only one whose book article does not overtly cover the plot.)

Comments solicited. See also Talk: Tir na n-Og Award and Talk: The Grey King. --P64 (talk) 23:24, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Alice Stanton (cricketer) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:14, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

National Varieties of English
The topic of this article: Under MOS:TIES "An article on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation should use the (formal, not colloquial) English of that nation. [...] In an article about a modern writer, it is often a good choice to use the variety of English in which the subject wrote, especially if the writings are quoted." Recently an author adjusted the American "Artifact" to "Artefact" but the article still contains other words exclusive to the American dialect. I propose: 58.164.7.191 (talk) 06:54, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
 * is written by a British author
 * about British legends
 * in a British setting
 * involving The Matter of Britain
 * 1) the Talk page and the Article be decorated with Template:British English
 * 2) the page be updated to use British English throughout
 * 3) interested parties watch / defend this page from deviant spellings in the future.

 * I agree. I have added an appropriate template to this talk page. However I am not sure if this template is supposed to be added to the article itself. I have also corrected a few of the obvious Americanisms in the article. Feel free to correct others as you find them. Although, I think we should not correct Americanisms that are part of direct quotations, as a few of them seem to be. MPS1992 (talk) 00:43, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Very good point. Even though The Dark Is Rising was originally bought by an American editor at an American publisher, it has always been printed with British spelling and even punctuation (Mr and Mrs with no periods). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdrpyh (talk • contribs) 19:57, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

BBC radio adaptation
Should probably add discussion of/links to the BBC's new radio adaptation, either here or on the The Dark is Rising page --Bbolker (talk) 01:29, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Dark Is Rising Sequence


text: User talk:71.243.138.182

title: User talk:71.243.138.182


text:
ASVEL Basket

ASVEL Basket, currently known as LDLC ASVEL for sponsorship reasons, is a French professional basketball team that is located in the city of Villeurbanne, which is a suburb of Lyon, France. The club, which is the basketball section of the ASVEL multi-sports club, competes in the top-tier level French Pro A League. The club's home games are played at L'Astroballe, which seats 5,556 people.

Founded in 1948, the team is the most successful in French basketball with 21 Pro A championships and 10 French Cup titles.

In 2014, Tony Parker became the president of the club. In 2017, Nicolas Batum became the club's director of basketball operations. In June 2019, football club Olympique Lyonnais's holding company OL Groupe purchased a 25% stake in the ASVEL men's team, plus a 10% stake in the ASVEL women's team, in a deal worth around €3.7 million. The deal also included a plan for a new EuroLeague-standard arena.

History
The parent club was founded in 1948, with the merger of two multi-sport clubs in Lyon and vicinity; ASVEL is an acronym combining the names of the predecessor clubs—Association Sportive Villeurbanne and Éveil Lyonnais. In its history, ASVEL has won 20 French Pro A League championships, 10 French Cups, two French Supercups, one French Federation Cup, and one Semaine des As Cup (French Pro A Leaders Cup), which makes it the most titled basketball club in France.

In 2014, former San Antonio Spurs star and France national team player, Tony Parker, became the club's president.

In the French Pro A League 2015–16 season, ASVEL won its 18th French League title, after beating Strasbourg IG 3 games to 2 in the French Pro A League Finals. ASVEL was down 2–0 in the series, but won three games in a row to take the championship.

In March 2017, NBA player, Nicolas Batum, became a shareholder in Infinity Nine Sports, the main investment company behind the club, and took over the position as director of basketball operations. Tony Parker remained majority owner, and ASVEL President. In 2018, the club signed a 10-year name sponsorship agreement with LDLC. The club also changed its main team colors from the original white and green to white and black, and changed its main logo design.

In 2019, ASVEL returned to the EuroLeague after the organisation decided to give the team a wild card for two years.

In the 2021–22 season, ASVEL won its third Pro A championship in a row, its first three-peat in 32 years after beating Monaco in the Finals.

Arenas
L'Astroballe, with a seating capacity of 5,556 has been used as the long-time home arena of ASVEL.

In July 2016, ASVEL announced that it would build a new multi-functional arena, with a projected seating capacity between 12,000 and 16,000 people, depending on the configuration. The arena is projected to cost €60 million. The new arena will be named the LDLC Arena, and its design and construction were given to architectural firm Populous and Citinea. Construction began in January 2022 and was opened in November 2023.

Logos and branding
On September 11, 2018, the club changed its name to LDLC ASVEL for sponsorship reasons. Along with this change, the club changed its main colors from green to black and white. The decision was made with the explanation that, "when you are European, green is a colour that does not make you dream", and was followed by criticism from fans. The new logo, used since 2018, consists of the number four, which refers to ASVEL legend Alain Gilles, while also keeping the V that was used in the previous logo.

Domestic competitions

 * French League
 * Winners (21): 1948–49, 1949–50, 1951–52, 1954–55, 1955–56, 1956–57, 1963–64, 1965–66, 1967–68, 1968–69, 1970–71, 1971–72, 1974–75, 1976–77, 1980–81, 2001–02, 2008–09, 2015–16, 2018–19, 2020–21, 2021–22
 * Runners-up (7): 1953–54, 1958–59, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–00, 2002–03

 * French Cup
 * Winners (10): 1952–53, 1956–57, 1964–65, 1966–67, 1995–96, 1996–97, 2000–01, 2007–08, 2018-19, 2020–21
 * Runners-up (5): 1953–54, 1954–55, 1958–59, 2001–02, 2015–16

 * A Leaders Cup
 * Winners (2): 2010, 2023
 * Runners-up (2): 2017, 2020

 * French Super Cup
 * Winners (2): 2009, 2016
 * Runners-up (1): 2008

 * Federation Cup (defunct)
 * Winners (1): 1983–84
 * Runners-up (1): 1981–82

European competitions

 * EuroLeague
 * Semifinalists (1): 1975–76
 * 3rd place (1): 1977–78
 * 4th place (1): 1996–97
 * Final Four (1): 1997

 * FIBA Saporta Cup
 * Runners-up (1): 1982–83
 * Semifinalists (2): 1984–85, 1986–87

 * FIBA Korać Cup
 * Semifinalists (1): 1995–96

 * Latin Cup
 * 3rd place (2): 1953, 1966

Other competitions

 * Villeurbanne, France Invitational Game
 * Winners (1): 2020

Season by season
Season by season results of the club in national, cup, and European competitions.

 * Cancelled due to the COVID-19 pandemic in Europe.

Notable players

• 🇫🇷 Éric Beugnot

• 🇫🇷 Jim Bilba

• 🇫🇷 Yann Bonato

• 🇫🇷 André Buffière

• 🇫🇷 Alain Digbeu

• 🇫🇷 Alain Gilles

• 🇫🇷 Henri Grange

• 🇫🇷 Charles Lombahe-Kahudi

• 🇫🇷 Théo Maledon

• 🇫🇷 Jacques Monclar

• 🇫🇷 Amine Noua

• 🇫🇷 Tony Parker

• 🇫🇷 Yves Pons

• 🇫🇷 Henri Rey

• 🇫🇷 Gérard Sturla

• 🇫🇷 Philip Szanyiel

• 🇫🇷 Victor Wembanyama

• 🇫🇷🇮🇱 Arthur Rozenfeld

• 🇮🇱 Noam Yaacov

• 🇮🇹 Nikola Radulović

• 🇭🇷 Nikola Vujčić

• 🇭🇺 François Németh

• 🇪🇪 Kristjan Kangur

• 🇱🇹 Rolandas Alijevas

• 🇱🇹 Mantas Kalnietis

• 🇱🇹 Mindaugas Lukauskis

• 🇹🇷 Hüseyin Beşok

• 🇹🇷 Bobby Dixon

• Steve Bucknall

• 🇦🇺 David Andersen

• 🇯🇲 Adrian Uter

• 🇺🇸 Corey Crowder

• 🇺🇸 Brian Howard

• 🇺🇸 Scott Machado

• 🇺🇸 Delaney Rudd

• 🇺🇸🇮🇱 Alex Tyus

• 🇺🇸 Casper Ware

Individual club records
Individual club record holders, while players of ASVEL.

ASVEL players with the most French League championships
ASVEL players with the most French League championships won, while members of the club.

Sponsors

 * LDLC

title: ASVEL Basket


text: Talk:Trinity Grammar School

title: Talk:Trinity Grammar School


text:
Talk:Bell's palsy

Removed list to separate page
I have removed the list of famous people with Bell's palsy to a separate page, List of famous people with Bell's Palsy. It was becoming too much like a trivia section. I realise that this adds one page to everyone's watchlist, but it makes it easier on the people who only really have an interest in the medical or technical aspects, and should reduce the volume on this talk page. --Slashme (talk) 05:18, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Scott Barkman - hoax and vandalism
Scott Barkman has been verified to have Bell's Palsy. However, his listing was incorrect. He is not American, and he is not a journalist. I have corrected this, and you may move him up and down the list as you wish. 71.210.118.54 23:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I took Scott Barkman off the list because his wiki link was dead. Digging a little deeper reveals that this entry borders vandalism.  Quoting from a thread "Scott doesn't have Bell's Palsy, and if he did, he's not famous enough to justify being added to the wikipedia page for it" (http://boards.thewiire.com/lofiversion/index.php?t24779.html), i.e. a thread on the very organization that Scott supposedly is part of.   On 5 October 2007 wiki user [Agyle] in revision history said: "Removed Scott Barkman, for 6th or so time. He's not famous, and no reliable source corroborates he has the disease."  Let's keep it that way.
 * Wondering if the "Famous persons with Bell's palsy" section should go away all together as it is such a frequent target for vandalism. Power.corrupts (talk) 11:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

 * A new IP address is having fun adding Scott Barkman from the Wiire to the famous people section. Let me quote more extensively from the thread on the Wiire website mentioned above.
 * (1) First the petition: "Fellow Wiire fans, we must join together to keep Scott Barkman on the Bell's Palsy page of Wikipedia! Agyle, a member of Wikipedia, has been removing Scott's name despite the fact that fans have been putting it back on again and again. We must all work together to keep his name on Wikipedia." .. etc.
 * The first response: "This is lame and childish man. Don't bug Wikipedia with this nonsense .. " etc.
 * The second and last response, apparently from a forum moderator, who then closes the thread: "... if you want to have fun like this, use Uncyclopedia. To my knowledge, Scott doesn't have Bell's Palsy, and if he did, he's not famous enough to justify being added to the wikipedia page for it - even Matt Cassamassina isn't famous enough to get on a list of that nature. " ... etc.
 * - Conclusion: This is a lame joke. Adding Scott Barkman to the list is not in good faith and borders vandalism. Power.corrupts (talk) 13:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Methylcobolamin
It has been reported that mega doses of methylcobolamin will cure 80-90% of patients. The North American medical community seems to dispute this however I could not find any data or studies to support the idea that B12 does not work. Micheal Jalaludin published a study in 1995 that showed excellent success with Methylcobolamin. Ref: reference

I think this information should be added to the artical.

 * I don't. The link referenced shows one study, that as near as I can tell was not p--Reddog6363 (talk) 21:24, 27 March 2011 (UTC)eer reviewed, from 10 years ago with no corroborating studies.  Also, slightly above that there is the claim, in a paper with no authors that  the same substance will help with (and I quote):
 * Bell's palsy, cancer, diabetic neuropathy, eye function, heart rate variability, HIV, homocysteinemia, male impotence, and sleep disorders.
 * I think these claims have little credibility. Wikibofh 22:05, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

 * I highly disagree with your position. B12 does have positive benefits in all of the areas claimed.  If you do your research you will find considerable support.  Furthermore, the North American Medical community has not done any studies that I can find to dispute the finding published in KL.  B12 theapy is inexpensive and perfectly safe.  If you for instance were to become afflicted with Bell's Palsy would you for instance choose to hide your head in the sand and pursue an ineffective treatment which Steroids clearly are because of politics in the medical community?   Have you any idea at all what it is like to have 1/2 of your face paralyised?  Would you not want to know about reported effective treatments because the study happens to have been done in Malaysia?

 * I happen to know for a fact that B12 makes a difference.  What I would like to see is a North American study and to conduct one is not expensive.  Since no-one at this point is comming forth with any studies that dispute the work done in Malaysia I have to assume the reasons are primarily political.  There are actually quite a number of areas where Asian medicine is ahead of Western medicine.   One of the HUGE areas is the anti cancer properties of many edible mushrooms.  In this area slowly the active ingrediants are being identified and registered as pharmacuticals.  Yet the Asians have known this for centuries.

 * This artical should reflect more than just a North American centric viewpoint!

 * All I'm asking for is peer reviewed citations. I don't see those.  As it turns out I think that "traditional" medicine probably does miss some things that "folk" medicine knows.  One prime example would be accupuncture.  I'm not convinced that this is a similar case, and without better documentation, I think it should be left out.  Claiming something helps with "cancer, HIV, diabetes" is so wide ranging as virtually eliminate its credibility.  Wikibofh 14:01, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * ...as do statements such as "I happen to know for a fact that ..."
 * However I see nothing wrong with adding Vit B-12 to the discussion of treatments that may help. Sfahey 02:03, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I think we should work out any wording here first. I don't have a problem with something like "claims" but something like "proven" would be problematic.  Go ahead and draft up a section and we can hammer it out and put it in.  Wikibofh 02:41, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Contagious
Is Bell's Palsy contagious? (-unsigned)

 * There are many causes of Bell's palsy. Some are infectious, but it's not contagious in the sense that contact with someone with Bell's palsy is going to expose you to a risk of "catching" it. - Nunh-huh 00:04, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is there no evidence that Bell's palsy is caused or worsened by exposure to a draught?

Clarification
It says that people will be left with deficits, I've had Bells Palsy for 8 Months now, and it isn't getting any better, was wondering, is it possible my mouth will never move right again? Or my eye will never stop watering on a regular basis? I can live with the other things, those are just the most annoying... Myzou 17:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Synkinesis complication
I have added a short decription of a complication known as synkinesis. I have personal experience with the complication and I'm intrigued by the mechanism of imperfect regrowth. --Frank.hedlund 22:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Wording/style
This article has a "how-to" tone and style to it, especially when it continually urges its readers to "seek a doctor's consultation" and so-forth. I think it'd be best to rewrite parts of it to keep in line with other standard encyclopedia articles.

--Giacosilontana (talk) 03:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Lifetime risk
One contributor has written that Bell's palsy affects approximately 1 person in 65 during a lifetime. I consider this to be correct. But at the http://www.bellspalsy.ws site, which is otherwise quite good, I came across a completely different number 1:5,000. Due to this discrepancy I have added a "citation needed".

Details: Personally, I would compute the lifetime risk like this. If p is the annual incidence rate, (1-p) is the annual "rate" of *not* having BP. If y is the average life span, (1-p)^y is the chance of not having it over a lifetime, the lifetime risk is therefore 1-(1-p)^y. It is only valid to multiply probabilities in this manner, if the individual probs are independent. They are not, because of familial, age-related, pregnancy (gender) related, recurrence etc, etc, but these effects are quite small compared to the overall uncertainty on the incidence rate of 15-50. For a first estimate, the above method would be reasonable. For p=20/100,000, y=75, the result is 0,0149, which is one person in 67. Fairly close to 1 in 65. I approached the website about a possible error there (http://forum.bellspalsy.ws/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=12&topic_id=270) but sadly received no useful answer. I have searched for books on epidemiology for methods on lifetime risk calculation, mostly in vain, but they do at times apply complex actuarial methods.

For the sake of precision I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable in epidemiology than I confirm the estimate, or provide a citation. -- Frank.hedlund (talk) 23:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I've had Bell's Palsy since I was a baby. I am now 38 years old and my face still has a slight droop to it, more prominent droop in my younger days. No amount of facial exercises helped, but I still do them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.41.173 (talk) 12:57, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Possible alternative treatment
I don't know if there are any available citations for this, but I've seen two anecdotal cases of my father and an older friend who ate canned peaches, of all things, and then their palsy rapidly went in to remission. I doubt there is much scientific evidence for this, but anecdotely, it has been very helpful. --71.76.39.125 (talk) 18:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Interesting, but it definitely falls under the heading of "original research". --Slashme (talk) 08:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That or coincidence. There's a reason why scientific medicine doesn't lend weight to anecdotal evidence.  It may provide guidance toward ideas and treatments, but it is not worth anything scientifically. --Puellanivis (talk) 04:31, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

(anecdotal) I was able to receive treatment for my bells palsy through acupuncture over the course of several treatments. I tried acupuncture because our family chiropractor practiced it and we trusted his work for results. I tried prescription pills at first like the doctors suggested but they did not cure the issue in the estimated time frame the doctor gave me. 71.195.10.228 (talk) 09:07, 27 August 2011 (UTC) Nathan

Reccurence of Bells Palsy?
I would like to see something about the likelihood of reccurence of BP. Do you have any information about this please?Amwlmc (talk) 14:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Now suffering from my third droop of Bells Palsy...!! I can add that in my case/ cases it is due to wind or draft that has caused it on all occasions...

The first time I was young, caught outside in very cold weather with incorrect clothing. I suffered from headaches to earache over the following days which then led to paralysis of the right side of my face, taking 2.5 to 3 months to clear itself.

On the second occasion, a window had been broken in my car resulting in a draft across my right ear, symptoms were noticeable the following day and led to the paralysis. At this point whether I am more susceptible with having it previously I couldn't say, but I do not feel that it can be viral or re-occurring. Due to the length of time the first Palsy took to clear, on this occasion I tried acupuncture, it was Christmas and I was desperate for a straight smile.. within 5 sessions the palsy had gone, probably around 2 weeks in total.

I mention this as all I have read relating to acupuncture and Bells Palsy seems indifferent and yet from my own personal understanding, I made a significant early recovery.

I unfortunately fell asleep in a draft just as the Autumn weather arrived, a cold draft on my right ear on wednesday night, by the following day I had a bad headache, toothache and with this a dull ear ache deep in the centre of my ear. Over the course of Saturday and Sunday I could then feel the knot of ache travel slightly up and then down the right hand side of my face, stopping at around shoulder level. By Monday morning paralysis had set in on tuesday, today, the right side is completely paralised apart from my eyelid which closes but without completely sealing the eye

I am due for treatment at the herbal clinic on Friday as that is the earliest they can see me. I will update to let you know, hopefully, how much quicker it clears with acupuncture..

It does seem uncanny though that the Chinese have a strong viewpoint on this and also an understanding how to treat it... Even their description is more aligned to the causes and their understanding of Bells Palsy, in my case, very fortunate. Just because we cannot explain something by our modern methods and reasoning, it does not give us the right to negate others credible answers and practices... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.195.98 (talk) 14:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

My first Ball's Palsy occurrence happened when I was 19, my second when I was 23. The odd thing was, I had total paralysis of the left side of my face the first time, and then the right side my second. I've never heard of it switching sides upon it's resurfacing. I talked to a few people who've had experience with the condition (either directly or by association) and no one seemed to be able to reference another case like mine. I was just wondering if anyone had any examples or even stories of this. It kind of worried me, although I made a pretty much complete recovery each time(without the aid of medication or steroids), I still was slightly disturbed since I couldn't find any other cases of both half and half Bell's Palsy, separated by years. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.112.98 (talk) 03:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Edits by User:Quod erat demonstrandum 3.14159 on recovery in lede
For the second time I delete this users contribution in the lede: ''Symptoms typically subside after 2-6 days and full facial function is usually returned within 2-3 weeks. Although rare, residual paralysis or dysfunction is possible and chances of this increase with age''. How did you cite your contribution from the 1966 reference? - the text from that refers specifically to imcomplete palsies. Please be specific, if you insist that the text should be retained.

Alternatively, I refer to National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke's Information sheet on Bell's Palsy: With or without treatment, most individuals begin to get better within 2 weeks after the initial onset of symptoms and recover completely within 3 to 6 months. This timescale is months, not weeks. The Bell's palsy infosite likewise reads: An "average" recovery is likely to take between a few weeks and a few months. Depending on how you interpret "usually" I really see little support for your optimistic assestation that "full facial function is usually returned within 2-3 weeks", and certainly not in your quote. (To follow up on your other comment: I had not noticed the Popeye text, I would have deleted it if I had). best regards, Power.corrupts (talk) 22:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

 * I now realize that you may have meant the the 1982 reference the text there reads: For 85 percent of patients the first signs of remission were observed within three weeks after the outbreak; for the last 15 percent remission occurred three to six months later. This specifically refers to "the first signs of remission", my comments above still holds. Power.corrupts (talk) 22:54, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

 * That's fine you can revert it. When I had it, the doctor told me that prominent symptoms should peak and begin to subside in that amount of time, and this was the case with me; it peaked within 3 days of the first signs and symptoms.  Granted I was on the younger spectrum of patients, but this prognosis was based on more recent research, as I had it just 3 years ago.  However, I cannot find the appropriate literature at the moment, so it can be reverted.  I apologize that I did not assume good faith initially.Quod erat demonstrandum 3.14159 (talk) 06:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Alternative medicine
Should this subheading be here? Having a fairly sensible article veer off into magical "vital energy" stuff seems wrong. It feels wildly out of place.
 * The fact that alternate medicine works is worth thinking about. I have been looking for proof the condition is NOT psychogenic, and I have drawn a blank.  All modern research cautions that results are "promising," but there is still no neurological test for Bell's Palsy. Neurological tests can only rule out physcial causes such as tumors or brain injury, but no neurological test can come out positive for Bell's Palsy.

 * http://kidshealth.org/teen/diseases_conditions/brain_nervous/bells_palsy.html# 71.107.88.57
 * Incidentally, one of wikipedia's editors has solemnly informed me that a psychogenic explanation for bell's palsy is at odds with years of "robust research." I looked up the meaning of robust research in regard to science, and this is what I came up with:  "▸ adjective:  strong enough to withstand intellectual challenge ("The experiment yielded robust results")."  I would like to know what research can be so certain and yet still allow Bell's Palsy to keep the synonym of "idiopathic facial paralysis."
 * Snud (talk) 06:39, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Popular Media Reference
haha, it was mentioned in the new movie, A-Team, at the beginning of the FOB Iraq scene (min 19:25) Avkrules (talk) 15:16, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Psychoanalysis
Is the subject of psychoanalysis forbidden in connection with Bell's Palsy? Is there any scientific evidence that it is NOT psychogenic? Snud (talk) 18:08, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Snud. I reverted your edits because they were not about improving the article and thus violated talk guidelines. The prevailing viewpoint from what I gather is that it is physiological and triggered by a virus. You need a reference saying that it is psychological, your personal viewpoints are original research, which is not allowed in articles. Personally I think your theory that I reverted, is misguided. You are welcome to continue the discussion if you can provide recent high quality medical sources for discussion.-- Literature geek |  T@1k?  19:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC

 * I found something interesting in an online book for you.Page 196 on might peak your interest in psychogenic facial paralysis:  http://books.google.com/books?id=hyMSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=hysterical+facial+paralysis&source=bl&ots=Zh9I1AeWuf&sig=3qmgNdmoKL1YbTP5NmCjuHdKnps&hl=en&ei=eh__TMrsMISosQOgs7WvCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CC4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=hysterical%20facial%20paralysis&f=false

 * Anyway, your rigorous criteria should be applied to a neurological interpretation of the paralysis. There have never been any positive tests for Bell's palsy. The neurologist can only rule out things that can be tested for.  http://kidshealth.org/teen/diseases_conditions/brain_nervous/bells_palsy.html#Snud (talk) 06:08, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't read the first book, no access to it. Are they talking about Bell's Palsey though? Acute anxiety can cause facial muscles to contract, which I guess might be what they are talking about; if they are not talking about Bell's Palsy then you are misusing references in in good faith. The 2nd reference says that it is caused by a viral infection, or more specifically the immune system's reaction to the virus which leads to the inflamation of the nerve endings. It seems that you don't agree with the mainstream medical viewpoint and where the evidence points to with regard to this disorder. You are welcome to express your views on a blog or personal website but wikipedia gives most weight to the dominant published scholarly views of experts on a given subject matter. Wikipedia is not the place for novel theories by individual editors.-- Literature geek  |  T@1k?  00:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have sent you a welcome message with links to how wikipedia works. The rules and guidelines are not my rules and guidelines but what wikipedia as a community has determined through consensus to be best pract:ice. Hopefully it will help you during your time on wikipedia and to understand how wikipedia works. :)-- Literature geek |  T@1k?  00:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

 * Let me point out that the term "idiopathic facial paralysis" is a medical synonym for Bell's palsy. Idiopathic means "unknown cause."  A viral etiology is an iffy theoretical construct at best. As for your objection that there is a difference between Bell's palsy and "psychogenic facial paralysis," there are no physical tests for either.  Don't forget the second link I provided you with which states *there are no biological tests for Bell's Palsy.*  In other words, neurologists have no proof it exists separately from conversion disorder. What I have been trying to present here is not a "novel theory."  It is not original research, and it is not my idea.  I would have never thought of it in a hundred years.  It was Freud's discovery. I can refer you to books, but I am trying to convince you to open a public discussion of this right now, so I am stuck with giving you internet links.  It is hard to find internet sources for it because it is strictly medical. And, as Freud said, good medicine is often dangerous, as a scalpel must be sharp in order to be efffective. The stuff they put out for the public is pablum, like entries in a medical dictionary.  I will try to find another source to make it easy on you, but the best I can find so far are forbidden to the public.  You might be able to subscribe to these, considering Wikipedia could be classified as a a professional journal though:

 * http://www.p-e-p.org/
 * ftp://ftp.lutecium.org/pub/Freud/pdf/freud_abstracts_of_standard_edition.pdf

 * Just search for "facial paralysis" or Bell's Palsy.Snud (talk) 04:09, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, but that link is documenting the theology of Freud, from the year 1893, this is the year 2010. Wikipedia articles in general should be using high quality reviews of research which is no older than 5 years when possible. As I explained in my first post to you, article talk pages are not for discussing the subject matter but rather for discussing the article with regard to improving it. Wikipedia is not a forum or blog to hold debates, you are in the wrong venue.-- Literature geek |  T@1k?  17:37, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I finally found something under "facial hemipareisis."http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/5/405. Now can the subject be opened on your webpage.  The fact that you choose the term Freudian "theology" indicates bias, btw.  Psychoanalysis is a pretty strange religion though, considering Freud considered faith to be a sin and skepticism a virtue.  He said that theory is fine, just so long as one is ready to abandon it with no regret in light of evidence.  So, will you kindly allow a religion opposed to your own have a say in this?  The above study uses experiments to validate the psychogenic nature of Bell's palsy.Snud (talk) 18:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You deleted large blocks of text which I reverted, where I explained that you are misusing wikipedia as a debating forum. It seems that you are becoming a disruptive editor who is insistant on having a debate about quack theories, despite having the rules and guidelines of wikipedia politely pointed out to you several times. Your latest reference does not mention Bell's Palsy. Lol, when I used the word theology, I was not thinking of religion, it is just my style to choose, different than usual wording when in conversation. Anyway, the evidence is clear, corticosteroids alleviate Bell's Palsy, corticosteroids, reduce inflamation due to the immune system, this has been demonstrated in well conducted placebo controlled clinical trials. Trying to undo robust medical research by replacing it with dubious theories from the 19th centuary is not going to happen and finally wikipedia is NOT a debating forum.-- Literature geek |  T@1k?  19:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I did not mean to remove your instructions. I was just cleaning up what I considered my own stuff, and I didn't want to make your words unintelligible.  I am being peaceable.  Please just provide a small section for the possiblity that unilateral facial palsy (hemiparesis)might be psychogenic in some cases...Snud (talk) 19:27, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry for assuming bad faith, I just got frustrated, I accept your removal was done with good intentions. If you can find a recent reliable secondary source, per WP:MEDRS, that specifically mentions Bell's Palsy, and discusses some cases being psychosomatic in origin, you are welcome to add a small mention to the article, per WP:WEIGHT. :)-- Literature geek |  T@1k?  19:36, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

(undent) Wikipedia is based on high quality review articles. If one can be found discussing this then we may include it. Otherwise this may be more appropriate on the page about Freud and his theories. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:02, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I am replying to both Doc and Geek in this edit because the page is running out of indentable space. First, the contention that recent medical research has demonstrated a biological cause for Bell's palsy with the use of corticosteroids is a bit of an exaggeration.  The experimenters have concluded the 4 percent improvement is not enough to be conclusive:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15495021 and this is from people who really wanted to prove a point.

 * Also, I have been challenged to find an on-line article that demonstrates Bell's palsy is psychogenic. I did that, but it was rejected because the term "Bell's Palsy" was not used.  I would like to point out that neurologists never use the term "hysterical" and psychoanalysts never use the term "idopathic" or "functional." And yet the conditions described by those terms are exactly the same.  Likewise, psychoanalysts do not use the word "Bell's Palsy."  That is a neurological term, and it begs the question.  The assumption is that if something is called Bell's palsy, it has a biological origin.  That, however, misrepresents the situation which is this:  There is no proof that there is a physical cause for untestable facial paralysis. The neurologists assume there is, and the psychoanalysts assume there is not.  Both sides need to be presented.  I would like to respectfully suggest you contact a psychoanalyst for his or her input.  I'm strictly amateur.

 * Finally, I would like to point out that psychoanalysis isn't worthy of the scorn you are showing for it. In order to even be admitted to a psychoanalytic institute, a candidate must either be a physician already or have a Ph.D and must demonstrate he or she has contributed significantly to his field of learning.  After being admitted, the curriculum lasts five to twelve years.  These are not stupid people, and if any of them reads your comment about theology or quackery, it will make you look like a person who does not like peace.  Snud (talk) 19:15, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

 * Q Why are we using a 2004 Cochrane review when we have a 2010 Cochrane review http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20238317 ? A review article is all that I request regarding psychoanalysis. If psychoanalysts do not us the term "Bells palsy" what do they call it? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 19:31, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry. I didn't notice the later study.  Even so, the treatment is superficial. The cure is temporary in chronic cases.  Furthermore, corticosteroids are used for treating anxiety symptoms as well as inflammation, so the study can also be used to validate the theory that Bell's palsy is psychogenic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corticosteroid . Regarding the psychoanalytic nominclature, it's "hysterical facial hemi-paresis."  It's a form of "conversion disorder."  Btw, isn't this a "review article:" :::http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/5/405.  If not, I think I'm stuck with books.
 * the interesting thing about this study is that it validates classic Freudian theory. If a migraine is removed by suggestion, the symptom is replaced by facial hemiparesis. In other words, symbolically hitting oneself on the head is replaced by symbolically slapping oneself in the face.Snud (talk) 21:15, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Its a 1953 paper. Please something in the last 10 years. This may be suitable in a section on history but would not support current thought. Conversion disorders are prevalent and well discussed. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 21:22, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There is this paper but it is not a review article and is still a little old. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 21:29, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

 * LOL! The text of the paper is hidden, just like articles on psychoanalysis!  It must be quite a revelation. I think these guys must be like literate druid priests, trying to protect the innocent by keeping us ignorant.  Maybe there is a fundamental need for Yahoo Answers after all!  Like Socrates said, an unexamined life is not worth livingSnud (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You have lost me... Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 02:48, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I found something else that might qualify: http://www.bu.edu/lab/Publications/Tanaka_Albert_2007.pdf It says a guy suffering from hysterical hemiparesis has hysterical facial "paresthenia." It was obviously psychogenic, and if things like this happen, it would just be common sense to assume that severe cases would produce loss of muscle control or even complete paralysis of the face. Then how could one distinguish it from "idopathic facial paralysis?" Snud (talk) 07:56, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I read the paper, and it is a case report series, not the best quality source. Anyway, it is actually case reports of people who had genuine neurological conditions which were wrongly dismissed as psychogenic in origin. The paper used the phrase pseudohysterical,,,, i.e. appeared to be psychogenic but were not. So the paper is actually arguing and raising awareness of the problem of pyschoanalysis leading to misdiagnosis by health professionals and argues for more indepth testing beyond a simple MRI, such as employing PET scans for such cases. I think that you have misinterpreted the source.-- Literature geek |  T@1k?  08:29, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You are right, and I am embarrassed! I got too excited when I saw th title of the article.  Like I said before, studies about hysteria are hidden from the hoi-polloi.  Conversion is treated like something dirty and ignoble by society, in spite of Freud's insistence that all humans are necessarily neurotic to some degree as the wages of living in civilization.  Anyway, I am going to ask Dr. James to use his privilege as a physician to check his local medical library.  They have access to the PEP web and there he will find loads of information denied to the likes of you and me.Snud (talk) 19:14, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Here are two studies that I think fit the requirement of being current and specify hysterical facial paralysis:

The first one actually uses the term "functional facial paralysis," and I think everyone agrees that "functional" is a synonym for "idiopathic," and "idiopathic facial paralysis" is Wikipedia's own synonym for "Bell's Palsy." http://jcbp.psychotherapy.ro/vol5no2/cognitive-behavioral-therapy-in-the-case-of-a-teenager-with-conversion-disorder-with-mixed-presentation-2/.

This one cited references from 1987 to 2003.

The other study was made in 1996: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WGW-4JW1HGD-7&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F1996&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1579285052&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5a474634eed634784e980a210f924aee&searchtype=a

It is a good one because it mentions that the hysterical facial paralysis was triggered by a physical trauma. This is typical of all conversion disorder. In the case of Bell's palsy, Freud said the initial trauma was a slap to the face at some period in ones life. Any subsequent facial trauma, no matter how slight--even a toothache for instance--is apt to trigger the paralysis.

Then again there is this one: http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/5/405 Although it was made in 1953, researchers were still citing it in 1975.

Then we have the article found by Doc James. All in all, I think this information warrants mention in the main article. Snud (talk) 18:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

photograph
The photograph caption states the palsy is on the person's left but the left side is wrinkled, nostril is flared and smile is visible. I think the palsy is on the peron's RIGHT side where there is absence of wrinkling of the forehead ( indicating LMN paralysis) and no smile Reddog6363 (talk) 21:24, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

 * This person is "attempting" to show his teeth. It is an example of Bell's palsy as paresis or *partial* paralysis.  This is a case of what psychoanalysis calls "hysterical hemiparesis."  See the above section on psychoanalysis.Snud (talk) 00:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Idiopathic facial paralysis
"Bell's palsy, or idiopathic facial paralysis,[1] is a form of facial paralysis resulting from dysfunction cranial nerve VII (the facial nerve) that results in the inability to control facial muscles on the affected side." This is the opening line for the article. I believe that the person who added this, including the reference, may not understand what the term "idiopathic" means. It means there is no known cause. Bell's palsy, however, can have a known cause in some cases. The reference has "(idiopathic facial paralysis)" in the title because it refers to only Bell's palsy cases that are idiopathic. It does not mean the disease itself is idiopathic. Because of this, I am removing this mistake from the first line. Please edit the rest of the article to reflect this fact. - Cyborg Ninja  03:02, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That is a bit of a conceit I think! Which particular cases of Bell's Palsy have been confirmed by a test of any cranial nerve?Snud (talk) 06:46, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Simply put we need review articles to support text per WP:MEDRS. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 07:39, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

First footnote, for bilateral palsy, is ad copy for a commercial site devoted to selling a 200-page eBook through Paypal.
First footnote, for bilateral palsy, is ad copy for a commercial site devoted to selling a 200-page eBook through Paypal.

Replace with noncommercial

 * ("Bilateral facial paralysis is a rare condition ... ")

and / or

PMC article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1924702/
 * ("Bilateral simultaneous facial nerve palsy is an extremely rare clinical entity with Bell's palsy responsible for a mere 20 per cent of cases. It is, therefore, important that clinicians are aware of the differential diagnosis when evaluating a case."

If the 200 page book is any good, can be cited at the bottom of the article as a paid external source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ocdnctx (talk • contribs) 23:16, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

The book is excellent, extremely comprehensive and has helped over 1000 sufferers. The site itself is not "devoted" to selling an Ebook, but is a free site with good information for Bell's palsy sufferers. Most books are given away free. The couple that are purchased each month help to pay for hosting. One of the site's main benefits is that they can email for advice (particularly important for the intial scary stages of the illness) and for ongoing encouragement when the longevity of the condition becomes rather depressing. I was the contributor to initially include the statement about it being possible to occur bilaterally. I suffered bilateral Bell's palsy over 6 years ago and studied the research intensively before offering the guide. There is absolutely no pseudoscience included in the guide at all (there is even a chapter devoted to warning against pseudoscientific claims and scam (usually herbal) websites). It is just sound and helpful advice throughout. If that is all acceptable, I would like to accept the offer of a link at the bottom of the article as an external source. I shall do that now and hope that the above explains why and can be accomodated. If a contributor feels the need to class the link as a "paid" external source, then so be it, but I hope after reading the above, this will be rightfully deemed unnecessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbytheberean (talk • contribs) 00:53, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No consensus to add it. Contravenes WP:ELNO . Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 17:55, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Antivirals
In meta-analysis, antivirals are ineffective irrespective of the severity of the palsy. 10.1016/j.amjmed.2014.11.033 JFW | T@lk  17:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Added Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 22:46, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

"a frigore palsy"
I am not seeing any English source that states or uses this as a synonym? Therefore moved here for discussion. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:36, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

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Moved
Need page numbers

"Other visual symptoms also include a distortion of the shape of regular facial expressions, such as smiling, frowning, etc., and even drooling. Because of these atypical appearances and actions that occur, Bell's Palsy has also been shown to have a large psychological effect on those who are afflicted.  Often times, victims avoid social settings and remain in the comfort of solitude due to the negative impact it has on one's self-esteem and self-confidence. "

Also why all the caps and this was already partly said above. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:11, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Images
User:Benjaminginterr can you explain how these images were acquired? Best Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 19:41, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Same
1–4 per 10,000 is the same as 11 to 40 per 100,000 The change is thus not needed. One can paraphrase the source. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:27, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bell's palsy


text:
Polygene

A polygene is a member of a group of non-epistatic genes that interact additively to influence a phenotypic trait, thus contributing to multiple-gene inheritance (polygenic inheritance, multigenic inheritance, quantitative inheritance ), a type of non-Mendelian inheritance, as opposed to single-gene inheritance, which is the core notion of Mendelian inheritance. The term "monozygous" is usually used to refer to a hypothetical gene as it is often difficult to distinguish the effect of an individual gene from the effects of other genes and the environment on a particular phenotype. Advances in statistical methodology and high throughput sequencing are, however, allowing researchers to locate candidate genes for the trait. In the case that such a gene is identified, it is referred to as a quantitative trait locus (QTL). These genes are generally pleiotropic as well. The genes that contribute to type 2 diabetes are thought to be mostly polygenes. In July 2016, scientists reported identifying a set of 355 genes from the last universal common ancestor (LUCA) of all organisms living on Earth.

Traits with polygenic determinism correspond to the classical quantitative characters, as opposed to the qualitative characters with monogenic or oligogenic determinism. In essence instead of two options, such as freckles or no freckles, there are many variations, like the color of skin, hair, or even eyes.

Overview
Polygenic locus is any individual locus which is included in the system of genes responsible for the genetic component of variation in a quantitative (polygenic) character. Allelic substitutions contribute to the variance in a specified quantitative character. Polygenic locus may be either a single or complex genetic locus in the conventional sense, i.e., either a single gene or closely linked block of functionally related genes.

In modern sense, the inheritance mode of polygenic patterns is called polygenic inheritance, whose main properties may be summarized as follows:
 * 1) Most metric and meristic traits are controlled by a number of genetic loci.
 * 2) Main mode of nonallelic genes interaction in corresponding gene series is addition of mainly small particular allele contributions.
 * 3) The effects of allelic substitution at each of the segregating genes are usually relatively small and interchangeable which results that identical phenotype may be displayed by a great variety of genotypes.
 * 4) The phenotypic expression of the polygenic characters is undergoing considerable modification by environmental influence.
 * 5) Polygenic characters show a continuous rather than discontinuous distribution.
 * 6) Balanced systems of polygenic inheritance in a population contain a great deal of potential genetic variability in the heterozygous condition and released by small increments through genetic recombination between linked polygenes.

Inheritance
Polygenic inheritance occurs when one characteristic is controlled by two or more genes. Often the genes are large in quantity but small in effect. Examples of human polygenic inheritance are height, skin color, eye color and weight. Polygenes exist in other organisms, as well. Drosophila, for instance, display polygeny with traits such as wing morphology, bristle count and many others.

Trait distribution
The frequency of the phenotypes of these traits generally follows a normal continuous variation distribution pattern. This results from the many possible allelic combinations. When the values are plotted, a bell-shaped "normal" curve is obtained. The mode of the distribution represents the optimal, or fittest, phenotype. The more genes are involved, the smoother the estimated curve, which follows from the Central Limit Theorem. This implies that traits such as height that are both highly heritable and normally distributed are necessarily polygenic. In other words, the fact that human height follows a smooth bell curve implies that there can be no single gene (or even small cluster of genes) that control height under ordinary circumstances. However, in this model all genes must code for alleles with additive effects. This assumption is often unrealistic as many genes display epistasis effects which can have unpredictable effects on the distribution of outcomes, especially when looking at the distribution on a fine scale.

Mapping polygenes
Traditionally, mapping polygenes requires statistical tools available to help measure the effects of polygenes as well as narrow in on single genes. One of these tools is QTL-mapping. QTL-mapping utilizes a phenomenon known as linkage disequilibrium by comparing known marker genes with correlated phenotypes. Often, researchers will find a large region of DNA, called a locus, that accounts for a significant amount of the variation observed in the measured trait. This locus will usually contain a large number of genes that are responsible. A new form of QTL has been described as expression QTL (eQTL). eQTLs regulate the amount of expressed mRNA, which in turn regulates the amount of protein within the organism.

Another interest of statistical geneticists using QTL mapping is to determine the complexity of the genetic architecture underlying a phenotypic trait. For example, they may be interested in knowing whether a phenotype is shaped by many independent loci, or by a few loci, and do those loci interact. This can provide information on how the phenotype may be evolving.

title: Polygene


text:
Karameh

Al-Karameh (الكرامة), or simply Karameh, is a town in west-central Jordan, near the Allenby Bridge which spans the Jordan River.

Karameh sits on the eastern bank of the river, along the border between Jordan, Israel, as well as the Israeli-administered Area C of the West Bank. One of several Jordanian-Israeli border crossings is located here, this particular crossing is known in Jordan as the King Hussein Bridge. The town was the location of a 15-hour military engagement between the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and combined forces of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and the Jordanian Armed Forces (JAF) in the Jordanian town of Karameh on 21 March 1968, during the War of Attrition. In the aftermath of the battle, PLO's strength began to grow, and the Palestinian militant group began to speak openly of overthrowing the Jordanian Hashemite monarchy, and the ensuing tensions between the Palestinians and the Jordanian authorities eventually precipitated their expulsion from Jordan and subsequent exile to Lebanon during the events of Black September in 1970.

title: Karameh


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title: User talk:68.167.254.157