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Talk:Vampire lifestyle/Archive 1

Original discussion
This page is far from being finished (though it is not a stub); the belief is as complex as Christianity. Falcon 21:48, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)

Why can this information not be incorporated into Vampire? And, if this page was created to describe something different to that at Vampire, why have you not used the 'Vampyre' spelling? -- Kwekubo 21:50, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Vampire is the spelling used in traditional mythology from a number of different cultures. The page is very cluttered and this article will be a behemoth - there is really no place for it on Vampire.  I have used the spelling "Vampyre" in the article heading because it is a term used only in reference to the modern belief, though in that meaning it can be used interchangably with "vampire".  Falcon 02:18, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * ...except that any number of works of fiction (historical and modern) use the term "vampyre" in reference to vampires. It's a good idea to have a separate page for humans who claim to be vampires or who live a "vampire lifestyle", but it shouldn't be under vampyre. -Sean 02:47, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * This should be moved then... I will move it to Vampyre(Cult) and make this a disambiguation. Falcon 06:56, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd put a space between Vampyre and (cult). Oberiko 02:58, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * It doesnt matter anymore; it was moved yet again. Falcon 06:55, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

Argh... I hope nobody redirects this page yet again or there will be redirection chains miles long and broken links everywhere! Twice in one day the page was moved... this must be some sort of record. Grr. Please post to talk before doing darastic things unless you just created the article in the wrong place by accident! Falcon 03:32, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

This page might be able to use a bit of wikification. Falcon 02:55, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

This page desperately needs some sanity. Is the article supposed to be fact or fiction? I'd be interested to know about the human illnesses in which origins of the vampire myth lie. If it's supposed to be fictional, this needs to be made clear and the various substrands of the mythos need to be separated. Lupin 14:40, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * The page is about a religious sect and details their beliefs. It is important in the capacity that the sect has created a new mythology on top of an old one, and is also potentially dangerous.  I dispensed with fiction-clauses after the first few paragraphs for the most part, because the entire article is about a belief system.  Therefore this is not, per se, truth, however it is what a relatively large community believes.  However, it does not deserve seperate articles because it is really one unified topic (although a large anf foreign one).  It is highly inappropriate to have more than one article about a religion or faith as that supposes that the faith is fact - wikipedia in itself is an aethiest.  Falcon 17:14, Mar 22, 2004 (UTC)

 * Very well. I still believe that it needs to be made far clearer that everything after the introduction is the beliefs of these sect members and not "fact". For example, the articles talks about the features of a subspecies as if it existed:
 * There are primarily two types of vampires; psionic (psi) and sanguarian (sang).
 * This is misleading to say the least. This may seem like an exercise in pedantry on my part but it seems absurd to leave the chance that someone may start reading this stuff in the middle (like I did) and actually take what it is saying as fact. Lupin 23:28, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * This is definately a valid point. I shall make changes to reflect this, but by now it is a huge job.  By the way, Lupin, I am adding to this article all the time and already it is gaining information about psychology and illness (though perfectly NPOV, of course).  An interesting thing I have found about this kind of article is that wikipedia itself cannot possibly avoit taking a POV; because its POV is strictly factual and neutral, it is impossible not do write an article about cults and sects like this without dismissing them as complete bunk.   Falcon 03:23, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

Okay... so there are people who actually believe they are vampires. I'll buy that. And they believe there are different types etc... but this article is very confusing after the first couple of paragraphs because it reads as such a fervant statement of fact. (btw, out of curiosity, have all the other infinite variations on the 'otherkin' theme got their own detailed articles like this one?) KJ 04:28, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * They do not; most are extremely fringe however as far as they go, this one seems to be quite common. And when, and for what reason, did wikipedia limit detail on any article?  I suggest reading the article over again; I spent a half-hour NPOV/aethiesing it so it did not sound that way.  The reason it sounded that way in the first place is I viewed the constant reminders of what the article was to be redundant, repetitive and unnecessary.  Obviously, this is not the case.  And just in case you were wondering about my affiliation with this cult, it is the fact that an ex-girlfriend of mine became to it as a fly is to flypaper.  Falcon 06:13, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)

I am adding the NPOV tag in regards to the insults towrds believers peppered throughout the article. If this is actually a religion, then it should be treated as one. I wouldn't edit Judaism or Hinduism and say "These people are likened to fools or people exhibiting symptoms of mental disease". Please remove the degrading statements. DryGrain

 * There is a notable difference between saying "these people are often called" and "these people are". The first, as it said in the article more or less, is simply a statement that many people denegrate the believers.  The second, as is not used, is a blatant insult.  Oh, and please sign your comments.  Falcon 03:39, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)

 * However, Judaism and Hinduism are "valid" religions that have not been proven to be false. For example, while I do not believe any deity whatsoever, no one can actually disprove any major religion. There is not a single person in the world yet that has the authority to say that there is no deity, along with supporting evidence. Likewise, no one can claim that there is a deity, along with supporting evidence. That's why they call it faith, I suppose. Vampirism is an entirely different cookie; vampires have been biologically and physically proven not to exist. The idea of vampires can be traced back to Bram Stoker's literary works, which are in turn based on Vlad Tepes. There is nothing mythological about this whatsoever. What's the difference between someone thinking himself to be The Hulk and between someone thinking himself to be a vampire? Both reject their own personality and project a false image of themselves which is based on modern fictive literature. Yet the person calling himself the Hulk would be classified as insane while a person calling himself a vampire would be considered alternatively religious? Simply because a lot of people think they are vampires doesn't mean it's not a psychological disorder. :: DarkLordSeth 18:51, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

sorry seth, you have no basis on that, and vampirism goes back far beyond good old bram stoker. you need to research more thoroughly.

Gabrielsimon 00:37, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Avoid_weasel_terms. This article is biased against believers of this sect and this bias is veiled poorly behind phrases like "Some people say..." "It is widely believed that...". This article needs to have a neutral point of view towards the believers and give only factual information from an encyclopedic perspective. DryGrain 05:14, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * In this case, the article is factually correct. It is not necessarily true that, say, demons reside in animal blood, however it is true that some members believe that they do.  I don't see any bias at all; if you absolutely must have it changed, feel free.  But isn't it getting a bit late, for you and for me?  Falcon 05:21, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)

''They also have very poor interpersonal skills and are likened to pricks, or people afflicted with ADHD or a similar disorder, or attention-seeking fools. ''

Weasel terms. Likened by whom?

-- hey! whats wrong with having ADHD? if you have something against it you dont know what its like to live with it.

Gabrielsimon 00:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

''This type of member will experience very dramatic symptoms, or at least pretend to. ''

Pretend...?

''Notwithstanding, there appears to be a great concern about vampire slayers, who are viewed as insane, psychotic cultists (among other terms which will not be published here). ''

''This is a natural reaction of being turned off from the cult. ''

When a vampire cultist becomes a parent,...

The term 'cult' is degrading to believers.

Many also claim that they often become ill when eating, however it is not medically possible for a human to survive solely on blood.

While this may be factually correct, it is still a POV statement.

''It is not recommended that a person be used more than three times by the same vampire, or the prey will become inextricably bound and attracted to the vampire. No case of this has ever been noted. ''

It is not nessecary to say that it has never been noted.

''The person will feel (or pretend to feel) unnaturally drained afterward, a symptom believed to be psychosomatic. ''

Pretend...?

''Although it can be removed from a doctor using needles, it is mostly taken from cuts (probably because nobody wants to go to a doctor about vampirism as they would probably end up at a psychiatrist). ''

Let's not infer that belief in this faith is a mental illness, hmm?

''Many believe they were put on Earth to set it right (nobody is specific as to exactly what they are to right). ''

Yet another example of small comments made to detract from the credibility of the claims of this faith.

''On the other hand, cultists of this manner generally go about their lives nocturnally and in isolation anyway, and are made to feel profoundy different (partially due to psychosomatic symptoms). ''

This article needs a massive reworking, as these comments are merely some of the ones which immediately jumped out at me. This needs to be written from an encyclopedic perspective. And what do you mean, getting late, Falcon? DryGrain 05:43, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * It is more or less fact. When general terms are used (the ones you are calling weasel terms), it is a general reference.  Trust me, it is a true one.  But again, if you want to NPOV however you see fit, do so.  And by getting late, I mean that it is 2349h here, and if you are in California it should be something like that.  But, as it is nearly midnight and I actually have school tomorrow, I'd better go to bed.  Falcon 05:48, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)

'Weasel terms' is not my invention. It doesn't matter if that's your perception of them, because that is a POV. If you can reference someone semi-famous or a non-religious organization making these statements, it can be referenced in the article. Actually, I'm in PST, and its only 10:55pm, and if you had read my user page a bit closer than just looking for my contributions to butcher, you'd know I was an unemployed high school graduate. DryGrain 05:57, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Then why don't you clean it up; most of the comments are general and have been said by a lot of people rather than by one single authority. Therefore the terms are not weasel.  Falcon 03:13, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)

I will clean it up when I have time; the havoc you're wreaking on some other pages has me currently tied up at the moment. They were weasel terms and will continue to remain so because they are not direct quotes from anyone, and express a POV. DryGrain 05:08, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Removed NPOV tag, I fixed the glaring POV, although it still needs work. DryGrain 13:06, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Why is the factual accuracy of this article disputed? Falcon 17:10, Apr 28, 2004 (UTC)

Look at the page history. DryGrain 07:46, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * There is no justification anywhere in the page history. Besides, it should have been mentioned on the talkpage.  History is no place for arguments.

Wow. I wasn't aware that vampirism was quite so popular in Antarctica. Are there any actual sources for the more outrageous claims made in this article? -Sean 08:39, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Of course it is not altogether that prevalent there; the word "nonexistant" is certainly not filler. The statement is meant to say the belief is unheard of anywhere outside of N. America and Europe, more or less, w/o POV.  There are indeed sources; Google will be able to find a myrad of them.  Falcon 23:13, May 7, 2004 (UTC)

Facts?
None of the references cited support any of the bizzare specific claims made in the article (i.e. "sang"/"psi" or the "astral" and "elemental" vampires); they just support the fact that such a thing as the subculture exists, which is already covered in the vampire article. Searching for these things turns up only a tiny number of hits on Google, all on message boards and personal webpages. If you can't find references for these claims, I don't think they should be included at all. -Sean Curtin 03:41, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

comments from Cleanup

 * It was a very contentious VfD debate. I think the consensus, such as it was, among the "keep"ers was that some stripping and huge clarifying that this is a fantasy/belief/cult/make believe thing is ok.  Not sure, but it was just barely a keep by my count. I think people wanted outside references added, too. Good luck to all you brave souls who undertake it. Geogre
 * It would be a waste of anybody's time doing anything to this, only one place for it, and it's not on Wikipedia Giano
 * I'm pretty saure that several of the people who voted "Keep" never looked at the section of vampire that makes this article redundant. If this page is still on cleanup by September it should be placed back on VfD. -Sean Curtin
 * While I don't participate or personally know anyone that participates in such, I'm aware that it is a real phenomenon, sophisticated enough to be called a subculture. I think it does deserve an article, and more than the little snippet on vampire. Let me clean it up, and then see what you think. PMC

 * It would appear to me personally (by way of general observation) that, though a subculture is in fact clearly present, it is not particularily unified by any stretch. That statement should probably be worked into the article somehow.  Anyway, why should we not replace the small, undetailed section in vampire with a link to this detailed article on the same subject?  It doesn't appear that this article is patent nonsense, or advertising, or consistantly biased one way or another, or a particular waste of space (not that any would be saved by deletion).  Therefore, I see no reason whatsoever to list it again on VfD, where the debate would be a repeat of the last one and just as inconclusive.  I would also like to protest the use of the amount of time an article spends in cleanup as an indicator for deletion.  Falcon 03:11, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

How the hell did this get past VFD?
I mean, seriously. MERGE this unholy piece of group-vanity to vampire or vampirism or, if people this this has any socio and psychological impact, move a brief summary of it to mental illness, describing symptoms, causes and other psychological information. In itself, this article serves no good whatsoever apart from sub-cultural vanity from people who think they are important. Quite a few people claim they are God. They are not a "sub-culture", they are known as a bunch of fcking idiots. Same thing for people who claim they are vampires. I'm ASHAMED that worthless crap such as this is allowed to remain in a respectable encyclopedia. :: DarkLordSeth 01:44, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Seth, are you kidding me? This is real. This is massive. This *happens*. You may think they're crazy (And I am inclined to agree with you) but there are tons of people who think they're vampires, and this is how they live. This is more important and certainly more prevalent than (for example) Megatokyo will ever be. The 'Pedia documents real-life phenomena, and this is certainly one. "Vampiric lifestyle" gets upwards of 10K hits on Google. "Vampire lifestyle" gets nearly 400K. That's 410K hits on Google. "Megatokyo" only gets 290K.

 * The article may well suck. It looks like it could use a little cleanup, yeah. But it is valid encyclopedic material and it belongs in this encyclopedia. User:Premeditated Chaos 07:30, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * There are also tons and tons of people who claim they are God. Are these people important or relevant? No, just like those losers who claim they are vampires, they are irrelevant and unimportant from most perspectives. Just because a large group of people is stupid doesn't mean it's actually important or relevant information. At best this can been seen as a sociological article about influence of Bram Stoker's literature on the modern day society, but that'd still leave it unworthy of it's own article, especially considering most details here are already available in the vampirism article.

 * Also, google hits are not the sole answer to the question wether an article should be allowed to live. It's part of the answer, yes. In this case, it's a part of the answer that says yes. But is this subject not written already, elsewhere? Isn't it a kind of sociological disorder? Isn't there plenty of info on vampires and vampirism already? Or enough details about sub-cultures in general? Besides, is this really relevant? Vampirism has been disproved; it's physically and biologically impossible to be a vampire which we know thanks to modern day science and biology. This article is a summary of existing work bound together by lies, ignorance and escapism from modern society. Salvage what can be salvaged, then pound a big wooden stake of Deletion through this. :: DarkLordSeth 04:08, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Seth, just because it scares yoiu or offends you in some way doenst mean you should try to make it go away, casue it wont go away.

Gabrielsimon 21:27, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's no major subculture of people who think they are God. While I'm inclined to agree that there's something wrong in these people's heads, 410,000 Google hits is notable. The large amount of material in this article would cause a lot of trouble if merged to another article. And finally, it sounds like you have a problem with an article about people who believe things that are false - sorry, that's not how Wikipedia works. Nickptar 21:48, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

besides, who's to say if its false or not. thier beleifs arent yours to judge. Gabrielsimon 21:52, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

from VfD
On 5 Mar 2005, this article was again nominated for deletion. See Votes for deletion/Vampire lifestyle for a record of the discussion.

civilitry
rude statemtns to not beong in articles, therafore i deleted one. Gabrielsimon 02:49, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * What you are removing is NOT a rude statement, it is an objective description of a possible explanation for certain people being in the lifestyle. You can't remove something that is NPOV just because you personally do not consider it flattering to yourself. Wikipedia is not a place for you to demonstrate your personal bias. DreamGuy 02:54, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

if thatst the case then why do you demonstrate your opinon in everything you post? othert the thqt, it IS about civillity, im sure people would post deletion edits if someone were to post something no matter how worded simmilar to " all crhistians are idiot-bastards" or something, and not just the christians, this is my reasoning for this deletion. (also that was mention, not use, of said anti christain sentiment, as an example only) Gabrielsimon 02:57, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is absurd. I wrote that statement into this article only after having found it (albiet in different words) in many other internet sources, and someone I happen to know who is very well associated with this sect has confirmed it. I am reverting this page to its previous version, and removing the NPOV flag because it has absoultely no rational justification whatsoever. I would greatly appreciate it, Gabrielsimon, if you would refrain from attempting to make the contents of articles more suitable to you personally or whatever it is that you are doing, even to the point of adding false information (re. your edits to Otherkin. Falcon 14:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

nothing i have ever posted here has been false or fictiuiscious. Gabrielsimon 11:39, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * There was no NPOV tag, so that's not what you removed. You removed a cleanup tag. Cleanup is all about writing style and so forth. The article is in serious need of improvement in that respect, so I put the tag back. DreamGuy 22:47, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Settle the debate
To end this aggravating edit war about who ascribes poor interpersonal skills, why doesn't DreamGuy show us where he gets his facts. (I'm not saying I doubt him; I'm not taking any position whatsoever in this war.) Nickptar 23:10, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm not the one who originally put it in there... See above, User:Falcon Kirtaran put it in there. I'm just putting it back because the editor removing it is doing so for highly biased reasons that blow NPOV totally out of the water. DreamGuy 02:03, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Okay, so GabrielSimon, what's your evidence? Nickptar 02:18, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

im saying that its not right to judge someone elses socual skills or pass around genrealizations such as the poor socail skills statemnt as if they were fact, its unecoming of an encyclopdeia.

i dont mind it being thee with the " some say" bit, but sa if it was true it doesnt belong. specially since withouthte " some say" bit its POV Gabrielsimon 03:42, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The "some say" bit is included in the text that precedes AND follows the characteristics being listed. Specifically:
 * "This "species" is variously ascribed a number of identifying characteristics, [...] Note that not all "vampires" are said to have all of these characteristics, or even believe that some of them actually exist. It should also be noted that most of these characteristics are ascribed to the "species" by members of it themselves."
 * Thus your complaint is totally without logical basis. DreamGuy 05:34, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

rude comments about any thing or species do not belong in an encyclopedia. as ive said before, if soeone made a page here and said " all christains constantly try to indoctrinate everyone they meet" you would have issue with that,. hence, im have issue with the rude commment about the social skills which i do not beleive belongs in an encyclopedia.

Gabrielsimon 08:35, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

i do not find this persoinally insulting, for i am ot affilliated with the lifestyle, to thereafore, how can it be my point of view? its simply rude to say things like that about anyone. Gabrielsimon 17:59, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But it's not POV to say "Some say X" if that is true, and rudeness/offensiveness is not a concern for an encyclopedia (provided that statements are true and NPOV). As to whether it's mainly said by members of the lifestyle or people outside... if either of you wants to assert either way, you should show some evidence. Nickptar 18:53, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

mu point is also that without evidance it is conjecture and hearsay. hence deletion bait. Gabrielsimon 18:55, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This ENTIRE ARTICLE is nothing but unsourced speculation from vampire lifestylers. If you want to complain about that, then the article should be deleted and redirect to the main Vampire article. The list that the comment User:Gabrielsimon wants to censor is on ALL came from the same source. You can't remove one as lacking in evidence without removing the entire thing. But of course it's not a question of source, really, because the editor only wants the one part that has any mention of the fact (which is the most commonly-held belief and thus should really be the majority of the article instead of a token phrase here and there that even that this guy wants to remove) these people aren't really dealing with reality all that well. This is like doing on article on schizophrenics and claiming that the voices in their heads are really real and then getting upset and removing one sentence that says some people consider them mentally ill. This whole article is a mess (see votes for deletion and other comments above) and would need major rewrites to get to NPOV and Wikipedia standards. The one thing we are arguing about is the only even somewhat NPOV statement in the entire article. DreamGuy 23:59, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

saying that vampires or vampire lifestlye followers have poor social skills is pov, weather you admit to it or not, therafore it has been and ahall be removed from this page no matter how many times you re add it, becasue it is opinion, and oopinion has no place in an encyclopedia/  the rest of the article is based on facts presented  in varoious places. therafore it is keepable. in fact if social skills are to be mentioned it is a fact that mythical vampires have extra orgianaily good social skills, and so it standx to reason that vampire life style ists would try to emulate that, if anything. stop reverteing this article based on your opinion, mr "dream guy"

Gabrielsimon 00:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

One, trying to emulate good social skills doesn't mean you have them. (I wish it did though. :-P) Two, for the N+1th time, stating someone else's opinion, AND SAYING THAT IT IS THEIR OPINION, is NOT POV. Sorry to yell, but that's how Wikipedia works. This edit war is starting to seem really silly, and you've both broken the 3RR in the last 24 hours. Please, if you want this settled, BOTH of you provide some source for what you claim are facts. Nickptar 02:13, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

he keeps trying to piut it in like its fact, undisputable, whiich is wrong. Gabrielsimon 07:18, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Again, the info comes from User:Falcon Kirtaran, see above where he explains it. And it's not being presented as fact because the text surrounding it makes it 100% clear that it's being presented as the opinion of some members in the lifestyle. Read the thing in context. I'm getting really frustrated with one editor who is barely literate and pushing his opinions everywhere trying to chastise other people (and, worse, who vandalizes pages but insists upon labeling the restoration of text by another previous editor as "vandalism" even though it does not fit the meaning of that word by any stretch of the imagination) and another editor asking for proof when it has just as much proof as EVERYTHING ON THE PAGE. The only person objecting to it is someone who has yet to make an editor anywhere on this encyclopedia that wasn't immediately removed by editors following Wikipedia policy as far as I have seen. Other editors here put it in. This stupidity needs to end know, because if Gabrielsimon is having such a fit over such a minor thing he's going to positively explode as soon as anyone actually goes through and cleans the article up some so it's not so insane and crazy. Again, see above where people voted to remove it completely. For Nickptar to pretend that this is something only I am doing is sheer nonsense. DreamGuy 09:12, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

the more you speka like that, the more you proove your lack of knowledge, just leave it be. Gabrielsimon 09:16, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Here you are (rather incoherently) trying to claim I lack knowledge, and yet you were the one earlier saying that nobody should be rude? It sounds like what you really mean is you feel free to be rude to people when you want to be, but if someone dares diagree with you they are rude for it. Rather hypocritical if you ask me.

 * But, anyway, for everone else following along this controversy, here's what an outside view had to say when Gabrielsimon tried complaining about me on another page:

 * Gabrielsimon is insistent that this attribute of so-called followers of the vampire lifestyle should either be deleted or preceded by "Detractors and critics believe that they may have". But this longer phrase is ridiculous here: that detractors, critics, and/or anybody believe(s) that something is a characteristic is not a characteristic. Moreover, syntax/semantics aside, it's pleonastic: we've already read that this species is variously (not universally) ascribed various characteristics. Perhaps Gabrielsimon hasn't tried hard enough to read and understand what's written.

 * That was by User:Hoary on Vandalism_in_progress (yes, Gabrielsimon apparently so completely does not understand what vandalism means that he tried to report me for it). Hoary solidly agrees that Gabrielsimon is wrong, so much so that he came to the article to make the exact same edits I was making earlier.

 * So, as I was saying, and as the admins there agree, my side is already proven (and is really self-evident from the way the section is worded), and Gabrielsimon's side is completely bogus. Does that settle it for you too, Nickptar, or are you going to still be asking for evidence? Do you follow Hoary's logic above? DreamGuy 12:22, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

All right, I think I see it now. Sorry, DreamGuy, for not assuming good faith on your part. It's true that if Gabrielsimon can't provide some good reason (besides some NPOV phantom) for keeping what he wants to add, there's no need to have it there, because it's semi-redundant. I've edited the section to make it more clear that these characteristics are ascribed by various people (the word "variously" isn't in my vocabulary, sorry). Still, I've got to say it would strengthen the case to not add that phrase if someone could actually show a case where a self-described vampire makes the claim about social skills. The primary burden of proof is still on Gabrielsimon, though, and the default position is not to have his phrase. Nickptar 14:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

why should the burden of proof be on me, i say its not true, and until he prooves it to be,m that is how it is, he should try to proove that it is true. also, i have not seen any adamins agreeing with him. Gabrielsimon 00:11, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * If you haven't seen an admin agree with me then you simply are not paying attention. See above where I quote one. See the page history where one makes the changes I made earlier and told you you were wrong. See your talk page where they tell you you are wrong. See the page with the false vandalism report you tried to file on me and their responses. Someone would have to be pretty blind to miss all of those. DreamGuy 01:39, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

 * err admins have no special powers or rights when it comes to content.Geni 02:49, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I didn't say they did, I was just pointing out that what Gabrielsimon said was wrong. Admins and other editors on all sorts of articles agree tht Gabrielsimon is out of line with his constant efforts to say that werewolves and vampires really exist and that nothing he considers less than flattering should ever be said about them. It's a matter of consensus and policy (largely NPOV but also things like No original research. DreamGuy 03:01, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry it's just there have been missunderstandings over this in the past.Geni 03:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

i know hey have no speciual powers for content, but its sill rude to say that any one group has socical skills of a good or bad variuety has no place in an encyclopedia.

Gabrielsimon 03:14, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * please don't delete other users comments.03:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't know whether you don't get my repeated comments on the subject or if you're just not listening, but while saying that a group has bad social skills is POV, saying that other people say that a group has bad social skills is not; it's documenting an objective, verifiable fact. Wikipedia works this way.
 * By the way, compliments to Geni on the new, clearer introduction to the 'characteristics' section.
 * Nickptar 12:24, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I cannot imagine the purpose for which there are so many reversions against peoples' edits on this page. It should, however, be noted that this activity must stop.  Stating that most people within the sect believe that their members have particular charactersitics is CERTAINLY not POV; they themselves identify it and Wikipedia is not expressing an opinion.  The sect members are.  User:Gabrielsimon's edits on the Otherkin page should be sufficient to definitively ascribe a particular characteristic to him, however, that being the inability to make factual edits to such pages as these.  Naturally, a claim that these are also species must be rejected without evidence, and no further attempt should be made to bias this page any way, whether in favour of or against the sect that is its topic.  If this absurd edit war continues, I will apply to an administrator to have this page protected and/or someone cited for vandalism.  Enough, already!
 * I would also like to make note that the facts presented in this article, regardless of nature, are referenced from multiple sources, both online, from personal experience and from the knowledge of others. Any contest against them, whether for correction or deletion, should be supported by similar evidence'.  Wikipedia is NOT a place for personal beliefs, essays or research, and the sooner this is learnt the better.  Please stop sabotaging this article!
 * Falcon 19:39, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

i am not the one sabotaging the article, im just trying to make it clear that most of the vampire lifestyler types do not have bad or ppoor or lacking social skills, therafore, it should not say they do,  it is also my contention that it is a rude thought to ascribe such things, weather they be fact or not in an encyclopdeia do not belong.

Gabrielsimon 23:10, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * It does not in fact amke a comment about all of them; only that some believe that they are afflicted thus. Therefore, it is not POV.  Falcon 04:14, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * We are interested in facts. We are not going to remove information just because people find it rude. I mean we include stuff that violates some people's regious principles so I fail to see why we should not include stuff that some people find rude.Geni 23:23, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * im just trying to make it clear that most of the vampire lifestyler types do not have bad or ppoor or lacking social skills -- Are you making this clear (saying it in a persuasive way), or are you simply reiterating it?
 * therafore, it should not say they do -- The article does not say that they do. The article says that it is widely said that they do. If [X] is a proposition and if you are unable to distinguish between (a) "[X}" and (b) "It is widely claimed that [X]", you should not be editing Wikipedia (or anyway its English-language version).
 * it is a rude thought to ascribe such things, weather they be fact or not in an encyclopdeia do not belong -- I am unable to parse this sentence. Do you mean "Even if these assertions are factually correct, they do not belong in an encyclopedia"? If so, you're wrong. It's a matter of fact that the autistic have poor social skills, and entirely proper for this (or something like it) to appear in an encyclopedia. But this is beside the point here, as nobody has claimed here that "followers of the vampire lifestyle" have this or that characteristic.

 * If you're interested, my own belief is that: (i) this article is about a small number of attention-cravers, perhaps mixed with a smaller number of nutballs; (ii) the subject isn't WP-worthy, and (iii) the whole thing should have been killed off by VfD. It's intermittently amusing that some people here take it seriously, but all in all it's rather sad. -- Hoary 00:55, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

 * There is no question that this sect in fact exists. They are also well-documented.  Whoever said that wikipedia couldn't have articles on cults and alternative faiths/beliefs/whatever?  VfD is for articles about gibberish, vanity pages or articles about topics so trivial they affect no more than a dozen people.  This is not one of those, and therefore it should stay.  Falcon 04:14, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * A dozen? The last time I heard, it was a hundred. If they're well-documented, where is this? The external links from the article hardly lead me to take it seriously. Any coverage in (non-tabloid) newspapers, (non-sensational) books, etc.? But OK, it has passed VfD, so it stays. Now let's approach it (like anything else) sceptically. -- Hoary 05:05, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

standards of civillity Gabrielsimon 23:56, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * What coherent point (if any) are you attempting to make about standards of civility? (My own standards of civility include rereading ny comments via "Show preview" and trying hard to ensure that they make sense before hitting the "Save page" button.) -- Hoary 00:55, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

it is not proper to claim that any one group or people therin have good or bad social skills, such data has  no place in an encyclopdia since its almost always a point of view. im sure you would have a problem with it if they said something simmilar to a less contraversial group. im also sure you should bite your tongue with the tone your taking, but thats just me on that last part. Im so very sorry if it offends you that i have nerve damage and can not type very well, therafore i have installed dictation software, so that it works better, but its on the fritz at times. You should ask about someone before judging how they type and judging how they think is most likly out of the question. Gabrielsimon 07:44, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * 'Here's what the article says: A number of sources have described this "species"; however, these descriptions are far from identical. Some of the attributes that have been ascribed to this "species" are: . . . Poor interpersonal skills when dealing with mainstream individuals or broader society. What's the problem with stating that some sources describe these people as having poor skills? Incidentally, I have no problem at all with something similar being said directly (and not ascribed to unspecified sources) about a group that's controversial in a different way, autists. And much worse is said straightforwardly and informatively (and not pejoratively) about the less controversial effects of, say, Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. -- Hoary 02:19, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC)

title: Talk:Vampire lifestyle/Archive 1


text: User talk:66.82.9.43

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:66.82.9.43


text:
Wikipedia:Latter Day Saint Collaboration of the fortnight/Removed

I'm moving these nominations because they are so old that I think that they might have already been expanded. If you want to re-nominate them, please do so. --John Hamer 04:40, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Mormonism and Judaism

 * Nominated 8 December2004

Support:
 * 1) User:Moogle 08:33, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * 2) -Visorstuff 18:09, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) User:VChapman 13 May 2005

Comments:
 * Well, I realize that this article is not as needy as Emma Hale Smith is (was?), but I think that it has a lot of potential as well as interest. It can easily be made into an ideal article.  I was thinking of suggesting an article related to Christmas, but I couldn't find maybe this will have to do?

I have totally done up this article. It is something I am very proud of. With the help of User Jayg, this article has taken off. It now covers Priesthood, tribal affiliations, and many other topics, including links to a jews mormon web page. Any additional input would be great, but it is a must check out.

Mormonism and Judaism

VChapman 14 May 2005 00:41 UTC

Relief Society

 * Nominated 20 January2005

Support:
 * 1) --Dbolton 09:31, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Comments:
 * Came across this article when working on previous Collaboration of the Fortnight, Emma Hale Smith. I added a section on the first meeting, but article still very incomplete. The Relief Society was a very important, influencial, and interesting organization during the Nauvoo period. Today, the 4 million plus membership in the LDS church continues to make this history important—and relevant.

Mormon Pioneer or Mormon Trail

 * Nominated 4 February2005

Support:
 * 1) User:Moogle 08:15, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) WBardwin 03:43, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)  Close to my heart.

Comments:
 * I know that both of these articles could easily contain vastly more information than they currently have and expanding them could be very easy as well. I also acknowledge that this article (like most) caters to the latter-day more than the latter day.  Nonetheless, I do not think that such a thing would come as too big a burden to those who truly enjoy contributing to Wikipedia — especially those with an interest in such topics.


text:
User talk:Zaxem

Is Edit Counts that important?
In my opinion, edit counts do not necessarily reflect the value and faithfulness one is toward Wikipedia. I questioned that why is everyone opposing someone from becoming an administrator if their edit count is only 1500? You can create 1500 articles and only counts as 1500 edit counts. Unlike some others, who is "faking" edit counts, they created 1500 articles with an edit count as high as 15000. Why? What is the difference between the two? The only one I could think of is that one does not have an adminship, but the one with 15000 edit count does. This is VERY unfair, I am sorry to say.

-- Smcafirst or Nick  • Sign   • Chit-Chat •  I give ''' at 00:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Won't stay dead
Please see Articles for deletion/Plastic Paddy. Looks like it's deja vu all over again. -999 (Talk) 03:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Amy Fisher copyright violation
It appears that you added text to the Amy Fisher article in September 2005 that seems to be a word-for-word copy of copyrighted information from http:// amyelizabethfisher.com/bio.html. I have put up a copyvio tag on this page and added a link on the Copyright problems page. --rogerd 03:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * This is very interesting. I certainly recognize the text that's on the Bio page of the [http:// amyelizabethfisher.com/bio.html amyelizabethfisher.com] website. It's almost exactly what I wrote for the Wikipedia page back in September 2005, which you've spotted. I don't know if the amyelizabethfisher.com website even existed back then - I suspect it didn't becuase I'm sure I'd have found it while Google searching information for the article if it had; but until you pointed it out to me I've never come across this website. I think it must be fairly new. I certainly didn't copy anything from it into the Wikipedia article. It appears that the website has lifted the text of the Wikipedia page and used it as their bio. My sources of information when I edited the article were another Amy Fisher website - www.amyfisher.com - which was alreday listed as an external link in the article before I edited it; and a few news articles I found on the web, most notably www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/amy_fisher, which I added as an extra external link at the article when I edited it. Zaxem 04:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * We can just put it back and perhaps put a note next to the external link that the text was copied from wikipedia. Since it is her official site, it seemed a little strange that she or her representative would write that bio that has some negative aspects.  If they did lift it from the text that you (and others) wrote for wikipedia, they would have a log of chutzpa putting a copyright notice on it.  --rogerd 04:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Per WHOIS entry for amyelizabethfisher.com, the entry of the text in question predates the existence of amyelizabethfisher.com. This is not a copyright violation.  In fact, amyelizabethfisher.com is wrongfully asserting copyright to information that was obviously obtained from GDFL wikipedia. The previous contents have been restored.  --rogerd 23:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Hi. I've been cleaning up spam and came across the link above. That domain is now blacklisted as a spam site. Since the blacklisting software filters block editing pages with those links, I've taken the liberty of disabling the link for you.

 * Good catch on the copyright violation, by the way. The site's owner has spammed >140 sites across this Wikipedia and dozens of others (Russian, french, etc) The sites are all junk. See meta:Talk:Spam blacklist for more details. --A. B. (talk) 01:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Derrick Rostagno
I have added a "" template to the article Derrick Rostagno, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but I don't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, or, if you disagree with the notice, discuss the issues at its talk page. Removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, but the article may still be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached, or if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria. Oo7565 03:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Tennis page IP vandalism
Thanks for all your help. It's getting tough, but we shall prevail! Here's a list based on one IP address which has vandalized many more tennis pages including players who are not that famous (your help is greatly appreciated!) : Mats Wilander Michael Chang Michael Stich Jim Courier Patrick Rafter Boris Becker Stefan Edberg Goran Ivanišević Yevgeny Kafelnikov Gustavo Kuerten Jim Courier Alberto Berasategui Sergi Bruguera Petr Korda Carlos Moyà Àlex Corretja Vitas Gerulaitis Greg Rusedski Thomas Enqvist Guillermo Vilas Mats Wilander Marcos Baghdatis Kevin Curren MaliVai WashingtonYannick Noah John Lloyd (tennis) Thomas Muster Fernando González

You've already contributed to a lot of these, but hopefully there are some more that you should be aware of. Thanks again. Supertigerman 03:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes! I like your bolded version. In fact, I didn't mind the new version that much, only that they were doing it without discussing it and reaching a consensus. And the IP guy is right about the order of scoring for losses. In all other sources, a loss is written from the perspective of the player, hence the sets he lost would be 3-6 not 6-3. I'm all for that, but what are we going to do? Just go to every page and make it all bold, or somehow tell the IP guy to do it too? Supertigerman 17:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

 * That isn't true. Here is a quote from an August 2006 edition of the New York Times:  "Second-seeded Rafael Nadal lost to Juan Carlos Ferrero, 7-6 (2), 7-6 (3), yesterday in a matchup of Spaniards in the quarterfinals of the Western & Southern Financial Group Masters in Mason, Ohio."  Another example from an Associated Press story this year: "Top-seeded Rafael Nadal lost to Xavier Malisse 6-4, 7-6 (4) Saturday in the semifinals of the Chennai Open."  No doubt I could find many other examples if necessary.  edited by Tennis expert 04:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

 * More examples. (1) Bud Collins writing on MSNBC.com on September 10, 2006: "I know that many tennis fans might be disappointed that Andy Roddick lost to Roger Federer, 6-2, 4-6, 7-5, 6-1 in the men's singles final at the U.S. Open."  (2) News on tennis.com on January 16, 2007:  "In last September's Davis Cup semifinal between the United States and Russia, Roddick lost to Dmitry Tursunov 6-3, 6-4, 5-7, 3-6, 17-15 in the decisive fourth match."  (3) Match notes on tennis-x.com on November 16, 2006:  "Tournament History: Lost to James Blake 64 76(0) in his opening match, before defeating Tommy Robredo 76(2) 62."  (4) News article on www.australianopen.com on January 26, 2007:  "Klein ... is anticipating another crack at Eysseric, who he lost to last week, 7-6(2) 6-2."  (5) News article on www.australianopen.com on January 22, 2007:  "Chakvetadze ... believes she is a much more complete player now that when she lost to Sharapova 4-6 6-4 7-5 in Los Angeles in 2005."  (6) Post-match analysis on www.usopen.org on September 8, 2006:  "Jankovic’s Cinderella run in the 2006 US Open ended in the semifinals, as she lost to No. 2 seed Justine Henin-Hardenne in three sets, 4-6, 6-4, 6-0."  (7) International Tennis Hall of Fame biography of Dorothy Round Little:  "That same year in the U.S. Championships, she lost to Jacobs, 6-4, 5-7, 6-2, in the semifinals." (8) London Times report about the Davis Cup tie between Russia and Argentina on December 4, 2006:  "Russia beat Argentina 3-2 (Russia names first) Singles: N Davydenko bt J I Chela 6-1, 6-2, 5-7, 6-4; M Safin lost to D Nalbandian 6-4, 6-4, 6-4.  Doubles: Safin and D Tursunov bt Nalbandian and A Calleri 6-2, 6-3, 6-4.  Reverse singles: Davydenko lost to Nalbandian 6-2, 6-2, 4-6, 6-4; Safin bt J Acasuso 6-3, 3-6, 6-3, 7-6."  Tennis expert 20:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm with you Zaxem. The whole line should be bolded, and yes, we have to listen to others' opinions before implementing the new format. I left a note on Tennis Expert's page, and am awaiting his reaction, as he has reverted edits but not discussed your proposed format thus far. Supertigerman 03:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Making the runners-up names bold in the wins rows probably isn't necessary; but either way I'm fine. Supertigerman 03:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Zaxem. Thanks for your message. My opinion: I think this format is very confusing. The point of the GS section is to provide detailed info on opponents and scores. The top priority is wins, so they should definitely have a table of their own. Being runner-up is subsidiary, and could actually be removed in my opinion. If it should be mentioned, it should definitely not be in same table as wins. Boldface does nothing here, except highlighting the player names that did not win. Could be confusing. As to the argument that one can see that a player has played several consecutive finals (and won some and lost some), I think that is not valid here. For that purpose, we have the performance time-line. So, I think the format should not be implemented. As to how the scores are presented in the runner-up subsection, I have no preference. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:HJensen" --HJ 17:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Runners-up versus runner-ups
Hello there. What is the source for the information you placed on my discussion page (and your reverts)? Tennis expert 23:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

My RfA

 * Thanks for voting in my RfA. I've decided to withdraw my acceptance because of real WP:CIVIL concerns.  I will try again later when I've proven to myself and others that my anger will no longer interfere with my abilities as a Wikipedia editor.  Thanks again, and I'll see you around here shortly. :) JuJube 04:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

My RfA
Thank you for your support in my recent successful RfA. --Anthony.bradbury 16:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Greenboxed's RfA

 * Thanks for your positive feedback for my RfA. I really appriciate it. Greenboxed 00:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

YechielMan's RFA
Thank you for participating in either of my unsuccessful requests for adminship. Although the experience was frustrating, it showed me some mistakes I was making, and I hope to learn from those mistakes.

Please take a few minutes to read User:YechielMan/Other stuff/RFA review and advise me how to proceed. Best regards. Yechiel Man 22:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

My recent RfA
Thanks for your support in my recent, unsuccessful RfA. It's much appreciated. IvoShandor 16:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Nehrams2020 RfA Thanks
Thank you for your participation in my RfA, which closed successfully with unanimous support. I appreciate you taking the time to stop by and vote and I can't wait to learn the new tools and further immerse myself into Wikipedia! Please don't hesitate to point out any errors I make so I can prevent them from occurring again. I'm always here to help, so if you ever need anything, just let me know. Also, thanks to Wizardman for nominating me and for guiding many other editors to become admins. Again, thank you and happy editing! --Nehrams2020 07:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Fabrictramp RFA
Thank you for your support in my Request for Adminship, which passed with 50 supports, 1 neutral, and 1 oppose. My goal is to keep earning your trust every time I grab the "mop". (And I'm always open to constructive criticism and advice!) Again, thanks. --Fabrictramp 16:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

very nice
Hi Zaxem,

I just wanted to commend you on your great maturity in handling the dialogue between yourself, maybe others, and Tennis Expert way back when at User talk:Tennis expert I actually had a good time reading it, and have just now for current purposes written a long suggestion note to Tennis Expert about his constant edit warring and reversion of some decent edits. It's one thing to revert vandalism (which I like doing and became a member for such a reason), but it's another thing to revert good edits just because you think you are the "expert" which his name seems to imply anyway, which comes as no surprise I guess. Anyway, hopefully he and everyone will learn to be happy with point of viewing "less than perfect" edits, because only God is perfect anyway.

take care ~ GoldenGoose100 (talk) 01:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

 * I just spent 11 minutes writing to Tennis expert, and rather than read and respond cordially, he goes and once again, reverts my entire edit and attacks me in his edit summary. Something should be done about this, no? Because it really is repelling from wikipedia itself to members and IPs, and IPs considering becoming members. ~ GoldenGoose100 (talk) 01:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Sigh.... Now I think I've upset him and caused him to start an edit war. Hopefully he will calm, and realize no one is trying to attack him, just have a conversation. I should be doing my homework instead. ~ GoldenGoose100 (talk) 01:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

thankspam
Considering I didn't reveal my previous accounts or contribs, it's more than fair to oppose on the grounds you did. I appreciate your taking the time to weigh in. See you 'round!  Mr. IP  《 Defender of Open Editing 》 14:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Ken Binns
An article that you have been involved in editing, Ken Binns, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Ken Binns (2nd nomination). Thank you. Koshoes (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Ken Binns
A tag has been placed on Ken Binns, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article that does not provide sufficient context to identify its subject. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. If you plan to expand the article, you can request that administrators wait a while for you to add contextual material. To do this, affix the template   to the article and state your intention on the article's talk page. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Koshoes (talk) 17:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC) This page is being deleted in accordance with the ongoing Tsvangairai case. Susan Tsvangarai is a very notable woman but she has been nominated for deletion on the non notability/empty page (in which she has a very full one). Now if Ken Binns, a 2nd place in the doubles of a USA American Hardball Squash tournament in 1971 is more notable, then I will eat my socks, hat, and anything els that comes flying my way. Koshoes (talk) 17:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

An article you created maybe deleted soon: Tools which can help you
The article you created: Ken Binns  may be deleted from Wikipedia.

There is an ongoing debate about whether your article should be deleted here:
 * Articles for deletion/Ken Binns .

The faster you respond on this page, the better chance the article you created can be saved.

Finding sources which mention the topic of your article is the very best way to avoid an article being deleted Findsources3:
 * Find sources for Ken Binns : google news recent, google news old, google books, google scholar, NYT recent, NYT old, a9, msbooks, msacademic ...You can then cite these results in the Article for deletion discussion.

Also, there are several tools and helpful editors on Wikipedia who can help you:
 * 1) List the page up for deletion on Article Rescue Squadron. You can get help listing your page on the Article Rescue Squadron talk page.
 * 2) You can request a mentor to help explain all of the complex rules that editors use to get a page deleted: Wikipedia:Adopt-a-User. But don't wait for a mentor to respond to you before responding on the article for deletion page.
 * 3) When trying to delete a page, veteran editors love to use a lot of rule acronyms. Don't let these acronyms intimidate you. Here is a list acronyms you can use yourself: WP:Deletion debate acronyms which may support the page you created being kept.
 * 4) You can vote to merge the article into a larger or better established article on the same topic.

If your page is deleted, you still have many options available. Good luck! travb (talk) 21:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

BLP warning
Please do not add unreferenced or poorly referenced information, especially if controversial, to articles or any other page on Wikipedia about living persons. Hipocrite (talk) 14:33, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I have now added sources. Zaxem (talk) 14:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits. The next time you violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy by inserting unsourced or poorly sourced defamatory or otherwise controversial content into an article or any other Wikipedia page, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Hipocrite (talk) 14:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I do not think I'm violating BLP or making disriptive edits. I'm trying to source the article. As you know, I have voted to delete the article. But I believe the issue is notability, not verifiability. Everything that's been put in is verifiable over the web, and I'm adding sources to show this. I still don't think she's notable, but right now I think a fully detailed article should remain in order to allow people to read it and consider it fairly while the AfD process goes on. I'm trying to help allow that process to happen properly. So I will be adding back in some of what you've taken out, but I promise I will only do so while at the same time adding reliable sources. Zaxem (talk) 15:00, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs
Hello Zaxem! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 19 of the articles that you created  are tagged as Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to insure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. if you were to bring these articles up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current Category:All_unreferenced_BLPs article backlog. Once the articles are adequately referenced, please remove the unreferencedBLP tag. Here is the list:

 * 1) Eric Jensen (educator) -
 * 2) Carl Chang (tennis) -
 * 3) Jonathan Stark -
 * 4) Brett Martin -
 * 5) Danielle Drady-Harte -
 * 6) Anthony Ricketts -
 * 7) Ibrahim Amin -
 * 8) Rhonda Thorne -
 * 9) Sue Cogswell -
 * 10) Margaret Zachariah -

11. Sue Newman 12. Martin Mulligan 13. Shelley Kitchen 14. Steven Bailey (television executive) 15. Diehl Mateer 16. Sam Howe 17. Ralph Howe 18. Rainer Ratinac 19. Joe Hursley

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 19:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Steven Bailey (television executive)

The article Steven Bailey (television executive) has been proposed for deletion  because of the following concern:
 * Unsourced BLP. The reference doesn't say much at all about the subject.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Unitasock (talk) 01:22, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Eric Jensen (educator)

The article Eric Jensen (educator) has been proposed for deletion  because of the following concern:
 * Unsourced BLP that fails WP:GNG and WP:V

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing  will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Codf1977 (talk) 07:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:Zaxem/Sandbox
User:Zaxem/Sandbox, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Zaxem/Sandbox and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). You are free to edit the content of User:Zaxem/Sandbox during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Codf1977 (talk) 14:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Nomination of Randi Coy for deletion
A discussion has begun about whether the article Randi Coy, which you created or to which you contributed, should be deleted. While contributions are welcome, an article may be deleted if it is inconsistent with Wikipedia policies and guidelines for inclusion, explained in the deletion policy.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Randi Coy until a consensus is reached, and you are welcome to contribute to the discussion.

You may edit the article during the discussion, including to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Gigs (talk) 21:53, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Nick Taylor (squash player)

The article Nick Taylor (squash player) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern: "The article doesn't show any references. The article claims that they reached 14 in the world, but there is no proof of that anywhere or articles from the PSA saying that. The article does not show any notability"

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

''' This bot DID NOT nominate any of your contributions for deletion; please refer to the history of each individual page for details. ''' Thanks, FastilyBot (talk) 10:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

title: User talk:Zaxem


text:
User talk:Wadehouston

No use welcoming you to Wikipedia since you've been around longer than I have. (-: I just wanted to know the source of Image:Jeff beck.jpg so we can add the proper image copyright tag. Thank you! Shiri — Talk 04:42, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Wadehouston


text: User talk:Crusader rabbit

title: User talk:Crusader rabbit


text:
Mud River (West Virginia)

The Mud River is a tributary of the Guyandotte River in southwestern West Virginia in the United States. Via the Guyandotte and Ohio Rivers, it is part of the Mississippi River watershed. The river is popular with muskellunge anglers.

The Mud River was so named on account of the muddy character of its water.

Course
The Mud River rises in Boone County, west of Madison, and flows generally northwestward for 72 mi (116 km) through Lincoln and Cabell counties, past the towns of Hamlin and Milton. It meets the Guyandotte at the town of Barboursville. Near the stream's mouth, the Mud River meanders through the large, ancient valley of the Teays River.

title: Mud River (West Virginia)


text:
Talk:EXpanded MultiPlayer

To Do
ok, what needs to be done: - weapons (player weapons in detail, deployables, photos) - HUD - voice commands - announcer - name coloring
 * more wikiness; remove the "you" style
 * sections
 * add some more screenshots, e.g. for player classes, energy source etc.
 * and lots more

also, the article about the free monkeys needs at least some minimal input for the time being.

Disambiguation
xmp is also a technology from adobe -> XMP disambig page created, reference to adobe xmp added --Jake weeeeeeee 08:44, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Discussion
comment: i'm currently putting some work into this page. i'm still a woob, so forgive me for my errors. please check the discussion page for ... errh ... discussion. ;) --Jake weeeeeeee 17:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Hey Jake! How do you do? I copied and pasted your comment here, and I'll respond here as well, as the main article shouldn't really be used for anything but actual information on the subject. (I suspect most people "watch" their favourite pages, and changes to the talk/discussion pages will pop up in their Watchlist as well if they do.) Anyway, I assume you were addressing me, or at least including me. I'm hardly a senior Wikipedian myself, but that's OK. The idea behind Wikipedia is to keep changing other people's things so everything will get better and better. Don't be insulted if somebody changes something you wrote (you've done a good job adding information). If you disagree, simply use the relevant talk page to discuss, or in some cases edit it back and explain why the previous edit wasn't an improvement in the Edit summary. By the way, try the "Show preview" button if you don't already, as it gives you a perfect rendition of the final look of your changes, without having to actually submit anything (yet). I myself use it numerous times, correcting others and especially myself before I Save. :) Retodon8 18:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

hey red, i won't feel insulted, of course. i'm still learning. ;) /// the reason for the comment at the prominent position is that i'm currently advertising in the xmp community for this wiki. many peeps have no idea that a discussion page even exists. if you allow i'll keep the comment for a few days and then i'll remove it, ok? /// i got used to save my work often as the preview won't do that. if there are too many save entries i could use a text editor.

i still have some questions: --Jake weeeeeeee 19:52, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
 * is there a recommended maximum length of an article? should it be split up to several sub-pages? if so, when?
 * how can i change the contents of an article series (here: the unreal article series below the article)? looked for info but couldnt find anything.

 * First of all, sorry for the slow reply. Secondly, it's all right with me if you leave the comment for a bit, but it really isn't my call of course. The preview does save... sort of. At least nothing gets losts (as long as your browser doesn't lock up), you can add something, preview, then go from there and edit something else, preview, go from there and delete something, preview, etc., etc.. If I'm making large edits I personally copy the text into a text file locally every now and again. It's nothing major, but it's best practice not to make a whole bunch of tiny edits in a short timespan if you could've just made 1 big one instead. I don't really know about the recommended length, but click the "Edit" link on the article technology in the Stargate universe for instance, and at the top you'll notice a link Article size, which is about filesize, somewhat more important than the amount of words or sentences. As for categories, first, click the "Edit" link as usual, and look near the bottom for in this case "Category:Unreal", which you can search for and edit. Retodon8 11:43, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, something I forgot. You have added a few instances of terms like "Gunny", "KO-wning", and the like. Wikipedia is supposed to sound encyclopedic, so don't be surprised if others come in and change all that to the official terms. I realise XMP players use those words over the official words, just like TFC players created their own versions of the character classes for instance, but it simply doesn't sound very official. :) Retodon8 11:52, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * i normally tend to split topics up into different pages. for xmp i would do some pages for general stuff, advanced tactics, server administration, and so on. just don't know if this is "wiki" enough. for the category editing: i tried that and extended the category "Unreal". the new entry won't show in the article series box which is triggered by "{Unreal}" below each unreal article. the terms you mentioned are either original terms used in the game (like "KO-wning") or introduced once in the article. is that ok? btw: i'll take the initial comment out now. ;)

 * cheers. --Jake weeeeeeee 20:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, one more piece of advice I can give is read: What Wikipedia is not, as section 1.10 sounds like it might apply here. Manual vs encyclopedic article. I simply never edited categories before, so I don't know how to do that. I'm sure it is described somewhere though. KO-wning is from the original game? I believe you, but I don't remember that. To tell you the truth I only actually played XMP for a very short time. Not many did, especially where I live. :( I suppose it's OK if you use the more professional player's jargon only once to describe, but please keep in mind I'm only 1 of the many Wikipedians, and I'm still wet behind the ears myself. Retodon8 22:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * ow, it is really the dixie's land tune? never heard of that one. sad to see the yeehaw junction gag go. ^^ Jake weeeeeeee 08:08, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Uhm, you really do seem to be turning this page into a manual right now. For instance the list of communications options isn't something you would find in an encyclopedia. I think (haven't explored the site properly myself yet) gameinfo is better suited for that kind of thing.

 * ya, looks good. it would be nice if there was some sort of interrelation between wikipedia and gameinfo, e.g. when searching in the one wiki you get two hits: one for the lexical knowledge in wikipedia and the other one for the how-to-play-it in gameinfo. let's see how things develop. ;) Jake weeeeeeee 20:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:EXpanded MultiPlayer


text:
Talk:Marshall Applewhite

Untitled
The entry that his spouse was "Louise Linant" is absolutely incorrect. He was not married to his sister. The correct entry would be "Ann P. Nickerson". Source: <> -XATMO92 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.61.107 (talk) 16:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Someone should put up that weird picture of him with the "cult-like" eyes on this page as *the* picture for his entry. Anyone who saw the news story at the time would know what I'm talking about.

The picture in this article is terrifying, I think it should be changed. :-\ --72.191.122.214 05:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Not rat poison and cyanide. Where it says "He committed suicide with 38 other members in Rancho Santa Fe, California by mixing liquid with rat poisoning and cyanide. " is wrong. The suicide was accomplished by ingestion of phenobarbital (which is a medicine still used to treat certain seizures) mixed with vodka, along with plastic bags secured around their heads to induce asphyxiation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Senhuan (talk • contribs) 01:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I wondered about this, since it is inconsistent with the "Heavens Gate" article's description. I didn't know which was right, so I didn't change it. If someone has a good sorce for this, they should change it and cite it. Thanks.

Herff?
If this blurb from the Bonnie Nettles page is to be believed, then this page should be the redirect instead of Herff Applewhite:

"Bonnie Nettles was co-leader of a group with Herff Applewhite, (Herff never went by the name "Marshall" according to friends and family) and became the leader of what turned into the Heaven's Gate cult after Nettles death."

Either that, or the Bonnie Nettles page should be changed to note the un-cited information.

On the other hand, it might make as much sense to link it to Do or Peep. Since any group that commits mass suicide is insane by definition (either they're insane, or we all are, and we outnumber them), perhaps it's just as well that Wikipedia doesn't call the guy by his preferred name. --Robertb-dc 23:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Pretty sure the whole thing was an elaborate hoax based on the name Matzoh Heppelwhite —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.97.5.219 (talk) 03:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Archive of his ramblings
Too lazy/underqualified to post this

Creepy though, his username? Doe. Everybody mocked him.

article not quite right
The news story given as citation 2 says applewhite pretended to his sister that he was in hospital for heart problems, when in fact the admission was psychiatric, there he met Bonnie. The article then repeats that he was admitted for heart problems? Sounds wrong.Merkinsmum 13:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Hang on, I always heard he was against the castration, but permitted it as a way of making it easier to abstain from sex.

It says in the article about the Heavens Gate Cult that the members drank vodka and took phenobarbital before putting bags over their heads; the Marshall Applewhite article however states under Heavens Gate Suicide that the members drank liquid and took rat poison and possibly cyanide. Which of these is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.122.0.246 (talk) 21:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The comment about the Level Above Human being equivalent to a mainstream Christian's Heaven is inaccurate. I'm not even sure what the Heaven is that is being referred to ambiguously as mainstream. Regardless, Applewhite clearly describes this Level as both physical and spiritual, in the video at http://www.illuminatiarchives.org/video/heavens-gate-cult-classroom-video-sessions/  Also, why are there so many objectionable phrasings and borderline homophobic language on this discussion? I no longer find the associated page so credible due to language like "was Applewhite a homo?". Dylan Hunt (talk) 23:43, 26 January 2009 (UTC)Dylan Hunt

Rewrite
I've cleaned this article up considerably (grammar, redundancy, etc.) but it still does not sound all that great. If someone has the time and energy, I think it needs to be rewritten. --Prewitt81 18:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Applewhite in Salzburg.
How could he be sent to Salzburg, Austria, while in military service, if Austria is a neutral and not NATO country. There should be none american military stationing there like for exemple in Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.11.49.236 (talk) 23:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

After his service was up?
The article states: "After his service was up, Applewhite became a college teacher." What does "After his service was up" mean? Religious service? No mention of any service precedes this sentence. Have I run into a Wikipedia Americanism?Alpheus (talk) 09:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you see the section on military service? He served in the military and was, according to his sister, Honourably Discharged at the rank of Sergeant after being discovered having a homosexual relationship with a student. Icemotoboy (talk) 04:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I don't think there's any way that could be true in 1956. More likely he completed his 2 year commitment.

Applewhite homo?
Was Applewhite homosexual? I think I recall reading that somewhere when the Heaven's Gate thing occurred. Didn't he lose a job because he got caught with a boy? I think including this would go a long way to help understanding Applewhite (why he had himself castrated, etc). Was he a self-loathing homosexual? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.153.188 (talk) 19:25, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I was always under the impression that he was gay too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.238.74 (talk) 20:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Homosexuality?
There are several reliable sources that mention Applewhite's sexuality as gay or bisexual: etcetera. I propose adding to the "Bonnie Nettles" section the following:
 * The Advocate, May 13, 1997
 * The Washington Post, March 29, 1997
 * Aliens: why they are here, by Bryan Appleyard, published 2005
 * The Sociology of Religion: A Substantive and Transdisciplinary Approach, by George Lundskow, published 2008
 * Dante & the Unorthodox: The Aesthetics of Transgression, by James L. Miller, published 2005
 * In 1972, Applewhite met a 44-year-old nurse named Bonnie Nettles at a Houston psychiatric hospital, which he had voluntarily entered because of depression, hearing voices, and "homosexual urges". Nettles convinced him that they were on earth as aliens and that Armageddon was coming. On August 28, 1974, the 43-year-old Applewhite was arrested in Harlingen, Texas for stealing credit cards.

In reading some of the above links, though, it occurs to me that some sources attribute a *lot* of the cult's beliefs to Applewhite's suppressing his homosexual urges. There could be a larger section added to the article regarding this subject. Thoughts? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 01:57, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

 * I read the first 2 links. The first one says that the homosexuality issue is being blown out of proportion and it overshadows the fact that Marshall Applewhite and psychological problems, heard voices in his head, was depressed. The second link talks about him having a priest for a father and he was probably into the christian religion. A lot of gay people are psychologically scared by the Abrahamic religion and this probably played a big role in his life. His fellow cult members who later left, also made the statement that he was repressing himself. He forced his members to dress neutral and pretend they didn't have urges and made them confess which was humiliating to the members. Quite a lot of priests are gays because they try to escape their "sin" by becoming priests. SURE, GO AHEAD and write a section about it Why hasn't this been done already? Vmelkon (talk) 12:44, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Herff Applewhite's stage career not in his "30s"
I met my wife-to-be at a dorm mixer at the University of Colorado, Boulder, on June 16, 1956. She told me she was in the chorus line for a school production of "Oklahoma." I attended most of the rehearsals and the opening day performance of that show. The lead role of "Curly" was played by Herff Applewhite. At that time he had just turned 25 years old. He was always known as "Herff"--in fact, I didn't know he had a first name until the news articles about the Heaven's Gate suicides came out in 1997. I have, somewhere among my late wife's possessions, a clipping from the student newspaper that appeared the day after the opening of "Oklahoma" (to mixed reviews). It includes a picture with Herff in the lead role. "Reliable citations" were asked for. Is an eyewitness account good enough? Gdthayer (talk) 17:59, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Copyedit
I hit this on request. Here are some comments:

 * The writing was loaded with academic claims and counterclaims. Is that what it should be about? The debate about whether they "believed" or were "controlled" goes on endlessly, but the difference could be better articulated. E.g., was there any restriction on member's ability to exit?
 * I stripped out a lot of the "he believed that" stuff leaving the beliefs. His claims were so farcical that I don't think anyone will be confused.
 * Has anyone addressed A's obvious economic motives for maintaining his cult?
 * How much overlap is there with Heaven's Gate (religious group)? I didn't check, but I see no reason for a lot of repetition.
 * Given the absence of a deity from his beliefs, should HG be called a religious group or just a cult?
 * I guess this doesn't belong in the article, but it's notable that the latest Alien movie Prometheus isn't so far removed from A's theory!
 * Cheers. Lfstevens (talk) 00:38, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

 * Some responses, out of order:
 * To me, the most interesting question about Applewhite was "How did this guy talk 40 people into killing themselves for what seems like a patently absurd reason?" So the "faith" vs "control" debate contains a lot of attempts to answer that question. There really weren't restrictions on members' leaving the group, Applewhite generally took the view that if you wanted to leave you weren't the type he wanted. (Although he may have changed a bit as time wore on, but that only extended to psychological manipulation--not locking people up.)
 * Oddly enough, I don't recall reading much about his economic motives. He really did live a pretty luxurious life in the end, but spent a decent amount of time living outside/in cramped quarters.
 * I'm not sure how much overlap there is, I briefly skimmed the Heaven's gate article before starting this one, but basically just put in what I thought would ideally be in a biography of him. I left some things in a sandbox that would work well for the group's article though.
 * As far as religion vs. cult, that's more or less a preference/political issue. A number of academics have totally abandoned the usage of "cult" in favor of "new religion", but popular media, the anti-cult movement, and some academics (Lalich, for example) still use it.
 * Good point about Prometheus, rest assured, if Applewhite were still alive he would have made sure to catch that one :) Mark Arsten (talk) 01:04, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Brainwashing
The distinction about whether the cult members was brainwashed is very odd, and ambiguous. What is this saying? Some argue that they were brainwashed, while others say... something that sounds like a definition of brainwashing.

"Lalich speculates that they were willing to follow Applewhite in suicide because they had become totally dependent upon him, and hence were poorly suited for life in his absence.[186] Davis attributes Applewhite's success in convincing his followers to commit suicide to two factors: he isolated them socially and cultivated an attitude of complete religious obedience in them.[187] Applewhite's students had made a long-term commitment to him, and Balch and Taylor infer that this is why his interpretations of events appeared coherent to them.[188]"

I just don't see how this is supposed to be *not* brainwashing.

It's like saying "while some argue that King Kong was a giant simian, others counter that he was merely an enormous gorilla." zadignose (talk) 05:27, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, what I tried to do was communicate the explanations that academics have given for why people followed him. Most of the scholars who wrote about this find "brainwashing" as an explanation to be somewhat simplistic and offer more nuanced explanations. Here's one journal article that addresses the issue. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:02, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Jonestown
I think the article should somehow mention Jonestown in relation to the Heaven's Gate deaths. Something like "...excluding deaths at Jonestown, which are suspected to be either a mass suicide or a mass murder". Brandmeistertalk  19:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No objections to that, perhaps it might work best in the notes section. The Call of Cthulhu (talk) 00:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Anachronism

 * He lost his position there after pursuing a sexual relationship with a male student; his church did not support same-sex relationships and he was subsequently frustrated by his sexual desires.

This anachronistic statement is sourced to Balch & Taylor 2002 p. 210 and Raine 2005, p. 107. I was able to check Balch & Taylor 2002 for the statement "his church did not support same-sex relationships and he was subsequently frustrated by his sexual desires" and found that it did not support the statement. I think it is safe to guess that it will not be found in Raine 2005 either. The societal discussion in the United States about same-sex relationships and church support did not begin until a decade later. This statement appears to be editorial synthesis or original research, however you want to describe it. It would be far more accurate to simply state the historical fact that mainstream religion and/or churches did not support same-sex relationships at that time in U.S. history. Viriditas (talk) 01:16, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The exact wording of the relevant passage on Raine 2005, p. 107 is: "His inability to accept his own sexuality may have occurred for a variety of reasons, but likely his strict religious upbringing might have played a key role ... The Presbyterian Church, like many other churches, has had a difficult time accepting the gay community and the idea of gay marriages." I thought that was sufficient backing for the claim that his church did not support same-sex relationships. I'm open to changing the wording though, what do you suggest? The Call of Cthulhu (talk) 01:50, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The ellipsis doesn't tell me how the statement is supported by the source. For example, the connection between his "strict religious upbringing", "his church" and the position of all Presbyterian churches isn't clear from the source. Is Raine 2005 referring specifically to his church or to all Presbyterian churches in the past or present? The statement "his church did not support same-sex relationships" is anachronistic to me, because it implies that some churches did support same-sex relationships, when at the time, I'm not aware of any mainstream churches that did.  If there is a source that talks directly about his church and his sexuality, great, but I'm not seeing it. Viriditas (talk) 22:44, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think there was anything wrong with the previous wording, but I've adjusted it some to focus on his personal religious upbringing per the cited source. The Call of Cthulhu (talk) 00:05, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Computer savvy and website
The media describes the heaven's Gate group as "computer savvy", and they had a website. There's no mention in the article. 98.164.68.28 (talk) 08:47, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140305135754/http://www.utsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070318/news_lz1n18heaven.html to http://www.utsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070318/news_lz1n18heaven.html

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He did what with a rental car?
The language "failing to return a rental car" is overly soft. The car was STOLEN, despite his repainting of the picture otherwise.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1997/03/30/the-cult-that-left-as-it-lived/1e9baadb-f465-4a7a-8026-0ab7e4822139/?utm_term=.bfbf94592e52

"In 1974, Applewhite and Nettles were thrown into the jail in Brownsville, Tex., charged with stealing a rental car and using stolen credit cards."

https://sawyerhg.wordpress.com/2013/10/21/did-marshall-applewhite-steal-a-car/

"Do told us he and Ti sent a number of letters to the car rental company explaining that they fully intented to pay, though he had no way to pay and were just trusting the next level would help them."

kevinthenerd 05:36, 7 November 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevinthenerd (talk • contribs)

Influx of funds
Where and how and from whom did the receive a large influx of funds? Tyler Basho (talk) 02:07, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Earth Ship
I believe that this reference should be linked to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthship. The facts that the Applewhite-Nettles dwelling was built in New Mexico of tires and lumber, and called "Earth Ship," can hardly have been coincidental. For the bibliography on this building system see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Reynolds_(architect) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.17.179.75 (talk) 21:04, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Visions?
I can't verify the primary source that Applewhite had visions. His writings on his website don't indicate this, and as far as I know, none of the published interviews indicate this either. Mgamernin (talk) 18:15, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Star Trek?
I can't verify the primary source that the cult was a Star Trek cult either. His writings on his website don't indicate this, and as far as I know, none of the published interviews indicate this either. Ex-cult member Sawyer seems to show in his book that references to Star Trek are uncommon as well. (I also don't see anything in his book about the two being aliens, or anything about them being transformed by aliens. So, I'm really confident in that.) Mgamernin (talk) 18:15, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Marshall Applewhite


text: Category:Pattern matching

title: Category:Pattern matching


text:
Talk:Diversity Immigrant Visa

Important missing part
Why has no one written about https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/post/computer-error-halts-immigration-lottery/2011/05/13/AFD1Hu2G_blog.html and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13673574 in this article?

It's such an important and major piece of news about this! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.71.16.173 (talk) 18:09, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the links. This event used to be mentioned in the article but over time it got erased. I added a paragraph about it again. Heitordp (talk) 10:24, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Important missing part
Please mention edv website address: https://dvprogram.state.gov/
 * Updated in the section of external links. Heitordp (talk) 08:54, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Add a section to outline the timeline of the DV process end-to-end?
I'm in the middle of a DV selection (DV-2022) and despite reading the entire US immigration website, it's not easy to get a quick understanding on how the process works, especially expected durations for each step. It might be valuable to add a high level summary here to help people understand the expected wait times between each step of the process? I'll add what I've learned from my experience:

Hopefully this will clear up some of the vagueness for everyone else. 101.164.192.230 (talk) 00:39, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Last Updated March 07 2023 121.209.51.196 (talk) 05:28, 13 September 2022 (UTC) 121.209.15.143 (talk) 02:38, 4 August 2022 (UTC) 121.209.15.197 (talk) 02:30, 23 August 2022 (UTC) 101.184.1.114 (talk) 01:34, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Why such an emphasis on scams, especially in the lead?
Information on deceptive agencies and practices now takes up a third of the lead—why? And why such a large section on "Deceptive agencies"—which reads like a public service message, not an encyclopedia?

The sole sources cited for all the information are government documents, with not a single other quality secondary or tertiary sources. If it's such an important facet of the program, it should be easy to find scholarship, news articles, etc. on the subject.

The topic of scams may be worth mentioning in the article, but it shouldn't be a third of the lead, since it doesn't make up a third of the article—nor should it, as it's not the basis of anywhere near a third of the relevant encyclopedic information about the subject.

I propose deleting the mention of deceptive agencies from the lead of the article and either finding better sources or drastically trimming the "Deceptive agencies" section. Thoughts appreciated! ElleTheBelle 20:28, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Statistics update
I have a two questions regarding the tables in the Statistics section:

- Table 1 ("Applicants (including dependents)"): The total number of applicants used to be published in the Visa Bulletin (whereas the regional number had to be taken from the DV Statistics page). Is the total number no longer published in the Visa Bulletin?

- Table 4 ("Diversity visas issued and adjustments of status"): I think new numbers for FY 2023 have been published. Could somebody update this?

Thank you very much for the effort! Jexplorer8421 (talk) 18:24, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

 * The visa bulletins containing the results of DV-2023 and DV-2024 show the number of entries, but not the number of applicants including dependents as the previous bulletins used to show. I hope that this number is eventually published in the DV statistics page so we can complete the tables here.
 * I added the number of visas issued in 2023. Heitordp (talk) 05:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Diversity Immigrant Visa


text: Talk:Alan Grodzinsky

title: Talk:Alan Grodzinsky