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Lucy A. Delaney

Lucy Delaney ( Lucy Ann Berry; c. 1828–1830 – August 31, 1910) was an African American seamstress, slave narrator, and community leader. She was born into slavery and was primarily held by the Major Taylor Berry and Judge Robert Wash families. As a teenager, she was the subject of a freedom lawsuit, because her mother lived in Illinois, a free state, longer than 90 days. According to Illinois state law, enslaved people that reside in Illinois for more than 90 days should be indentured and freed. The country's rule of partus sequitur ventrem asserts that if the mother was free at the child's birth, the child should be free. After Delaney's mother, Polly Berry (also known as Polly Wash), filed a lawsuit for herself, she filed a lawsuit on her daughter's behalf in 1842. Delaney was held in jail for 17 months while awaiting the trial.

In 1891, Delaney published the narrative, From the Darkness Cometh the Light, or, Struggles for Freedom. This is the only known first-person account of a freedom suit and one of the few slave narratives published in the post-Emancipation period. The memoir recounts her mother's legal battles in St. Louis, Missouri, for her own and her daughter's freedom from slavery. For Delaney's case, Berry attracted the support of Edward Bates, a prominent Whig politician and judge, and the future United States Attorney General under President Abraham Lincoln. He argued Delaney's case in court and won her freedom in February 1844. Delaney's and her mother’s cases were two of 301 freedom suits filed in St. Louis from 1814 to 1860. The memoir provides insight into the activities of Delaney's life during and after the freedom suits. There are some discrepancies, though, between the memoir and public records regarding her mother Polly's childhood, such as where she was born and whether she was born free or not.

Delaney and her mother lived in St. Louis briefly before her first marriage in 1845 to Frederick Turner, which brought the mother and daughter to Quincy, Illinois. In 1848, Turner was killed in a steamboat explosion. The women returned to St. Louis, and in 1849, Lucy Berry married Zachariah Delaney. Lucy's mother lived with the Delaney's in the Mill Creek Valley of St. Louis. They had a comfortable middle class life and Delaney and her husband were active leaders in the St. Louis area. Delaney and her husband had at least four children, a couple of whom died in childhood and a couple of whom died in their twenties.

Early life
Lucy Ann Berry was born into slavery in St. Louis, Missouri around 1828 and 1830. Her mother, Polly Berry was born a slave in Kentucky around 1803 or 1805. In October 1817, when Polly was about fourteen, she was taken to Edwardsville, Illinois. After 90 days in Illinois, slaveholders were required to register their slaves as indentured servants, which legally made them free. However, months later, in April 1818, Polly was transported to Little Dixie of central Missouri, where she was sold. She was taken up the Missouri River and lived there from 1818 to around 1823. She was then sold to Major Taylor Berry and his wife, Frances (Fannie) of Howard County, Missouri.

Delaney said of the transaction: "Major Berry was immediately attracted by the bright and alert appearance of Polly, and at once negotiated with the trader, paid the price agreed upon, and started for home to present his wife with this flesh and blood commodity, which money could so easily procure in our vaunted land of freedom. Mrs. Fanny Berry was highly pleased with Polly's manner and appearance, and concluded to make a seamstress of her."

- Lucy A. Delaney

Polly married an unnamed enslaved man of the Berry's and they had two daughters, Nancy and Lucy. They lived in Franklin County, Missouri. The major told Polly and her husband that they and his other slaves would be freed upon his death and the death of his wife. But, Berry's will did not stipulate that any slaves should be freed. After the major died in a duel, the widow Fannie Berry married Robert Wash of St. Louis, a lawyer later appointed as a justice of the Supreme Court of Missouri. Polly and her family remained enslaved and she became known as Polly Wash. Fannie died on February 6, 1829, after which Judge Wash sold Delaney's father to a plantation in the Deep South.

Delaney was reportedly very afraid of being sold and separated from her mother. Like many other enslaved mothers in Missouri, Polly encouraged her daughters to plan for the time that they could escape their slaveholders. Sinha states, "A shared belief in courageous female resistance helped mothers and daughters support heavy loads of responsibility, pain, sorrow, and loneliness."

Delaney, her mother and sister went to Taylor and Fannie Berry's daughter, Mary, who married Henry Sidney Coxe on March 21, 1837. Nancy was taken with them on their honeymoon trip, with a stop in Niagara Falls, New York. Nancy had been previously instructed by Polly to escape into Canada (where slavery had been abolished and the Fugitive Slave Act of 1793 was invalid). In Niagara Falls, Nancy received assistance from a servant at the hotel where they had been staying, and she made it safely across the border into Canada.

While Polly was owned by the Coxes, she periodically worked on riverboats along the Mississippi River and Illinois River. One day, Mary complained that Polly put on "white airs" and threatened to sell and subsequently did sell Polly at a slave auction in St. Louis for $550 to Joseph Magehan, a carpenter and lumberman from St. Louis. According to Delaney's memoir and some subsequent sources, Polly escaped to Chicago, was caught, and returned to St. Louis, but there is no evidence that this occurred and there was no mention of it in records of Polly's court case.

Delaney, who took care of Mary Berry and Henry Sidney Coxe's children, was subject to the parents' "fiery personalities." The couple suffered from the loss of their two infant children and Henry's alcoholism. Mary filed for divorce in 1845, citing her husband's alcoholism, severe temper, and verbal abuse. Mary withdrew the suit after Henry enumerated her faults. They agreed to stay married, but lived separately.

Polly
Having been held illegally as a slave in Illinois, Polly sued for her freedom in the Circuit Court in the case known as Polly Wash v. Joseph A. Magehan in October 1839. When her suit was finally heard in 1843, her attorney Harris Sproat convinced a jury that she had been in Illinois long enough to have earned her freedom. Polly was freed. She continued her efforts to secure her daughter Lucy Ann Berry's freedom, having filed a freedom suit on her behalf in 1842.

Lucy
By 1842, Delaney went to Mary's younger sister, Martha. She was believed to have been a gift to Marth upon her marriage to David D. Mitchell. Delaney was tasked with doing the laundry, a task at which she was inexperienced. Doing the laundry required carrying up to 50 gallons of water for each load, hand washing with lye, using laundry boards for each item of clothing, and wringing clothes. After that, clothes were hung on lines, starched, and ironed with heavy flat irons. Historian Tera Hunter states that it "was the single most onerous chore in the life of a nineteenth-century woman." She used water from the Missouri River, which was muddy and discolored the clothing. After Martha complained about the ruined clothing and called her lazy, Delaney replied, "You don't know nothing, yourself, about it, and you expect a poor ignorant girl to know more than you do yourself. If you had any feeling you would get somebody to teach me, and then I'd do well enough. She then gave me a wrapper to do up, and told me if I ruined it that as I did the other clothes, she would whip me severely."

- Lucy A. Delaney

After the wrapper was washed and ruined, Mary attempted to beat Delaney with tongs, a broomstick, and a shovel, all of which Delaney was able to take away from her. After Mary's husband refused to beat her, they planned to sell her into the Deep South. Before they could take her away, Delaney escaped to the cottage of her mother, who had her hide at a friend's house.

Polly filed suit on September 8, 1842, as a "next friend" of her daughter against David D. Mitchell. Since her own case had not been settled, Polly was still considered a slave with no legal standing, but under the slave law, she could file suit in Circuit Court in St. Louis for Delaney's freedom as "next friend". According to the rule of partus sequitur ventrem, which had been adopted into United States slave law, the status of children followed that of the mother. Since Delaney was born to a woman who should have been considered free at the time, she should also have been free. A $2,000 bond was established by Judge Bryan Mullanphy, should Mitchell try to reclaim Delaney. Mitchell wanted to ensure that she was kept in St. Louis until the trial. Delaney was remanded to jail, where she was held for 17 months. During that time, Delaney was fell ill sue to the poor conditions of the jail that was crowded, cold, damp, and smelled of sewage. She did not have sufficient clothing to keep her warm. She benefited from visits from her mother and the kindness of the jailor Benjamin Lacy's sister-in-law, likely Minerva Ann (Doyle) Lacy, the wife of Lewis Fernandez Lacy.

In February 1844, the case went to trial. Francis B. Murdoch, the former district attorney for Alton, Illinois, prepared the case to free Delaney. He was highly involved in freedom suits in St. Louis. The prominent Whig politician Edward Bates, a slaveholder, argued the case in court. He was later appointed as the US Attorney General under President Abraham Lincoln.

By the time the case went to trial, her mother's case had been settled, and Polly was freed. Polly had affidavits from people who knew her and her daughter. Judge Robert Wash (Fanny Berry Wash's widower and Polly's previous master) testified that Delaney was definitely Polly's child. With the case settled by the principle of "once free, always free," Bates was able to convince the jury that her daughter should be freed. The judge announced that she was found to be free. She left the jail the day the verdict was made. Once free, Delaney would have had to register with the city of St. Louis and find someone to post bond in support of her registration.

Wash filed a second suit on behalf of her daughter entitled Lucy Ann Britton v. David D. Mitchell, for $1,000 in damages against David D. Mitchell for false imprisonment. By this suit, Polly and Murdoch may have been trying to preclude Mitchell from appealing the court's decision, in addition to seeking reparations for poor conditions that Delaney suffered in jail. They later dropped the suit.

Marriage and family
Delaney and her mother worked as seamstresses in St. Louis after they gained their freedom. In 1845, Delaney met and married steamboat worker Frederick Turner, with whom she settled in Quincy, Illinois. Her mother lived with them. Turner died soon after in a boiler explosion on the steamboat The Edward Bates on August 12, 1848.

"To my mind it seemed a singular coincidence that the boat which bore the name of the great and good man, who had given me the first joy of my meagre life – the precious boon of freedom – and that his namesake should be the means of weighting me with my first great sorrow; this thought seemed to reconcile me to my grief, for that name was ever sacred, and I could not speak it without reverence."

- Lucy A. Delaney

Lucy Ann married Zachariah Delaney in St. Louis on November 16, 1849, a free black man from Cincinnati, Ohio. The Delaneys lived in a house on Gay Street in Mill Creek Valley of St. Louis. Called the Delaney House, it was built in 1845. She was a successful seamstress and her husband was a porter, cook, mail clerk, janitor, and laborer. They were members of the middle class. The Delaneys were married 42 years, until his death around 1891. Her mother lived with them. Though the couple had four children, two did not survive infancy. The remaining son and daughter both died in their early twenties. In 1870, the Delaneys had three boys and three girls living with them, from 19 to nearly a year old. By 1880, they had no children living with them.

After the Civil War, Lucy located her father outside Vicksburg, Mississippi and with her sister from Canada, Nancy and Lucy were reunited with their father during a visit.

"I frequently thought of father, and wondered if he were alive or dead; and at the time of the great exodus of negroes from the South, a few years ago, a large number arrived in St. Louis, and were cared for by the colored people of that city. They were sheltered in churches, halls and private houses, until such time as they could pursue their journey. Methought, I will find him in this motley crowd, of all ages, from the crowing babe in its mother's arms, to the aged and decrepit, on whom the marks of slavery were still visible. I piled inquiry upon inquiry, until after long and persistent search, I learned that my father had always lived on the same plantation, fifteen miles from Vicksburg. I wrote to my father and begged him to come and see me and make his home with me; sent him the money, so he would be to no expense, and when he finally reached St. Louis, it was with great joy that I received him. Old, grizzled and gray, time had dealt hardly with him, and he looked very little like the dapper master's valet, whose dark beauty won my mother's heart."

- Lucy A. Delaney

Civic engagement
She was active in women's clubs, religious organizations and charity groups. Such organizations developed rapidly in both the African-American and white communities nationally in the years following the Civil War. She joined the African Methodist Episcopal Church in 1855, founded in 1816 in Philadelphia as the first independent black denomination in the United States. Delaney was elected president of the first colored society, the Female Union, an organization of African-American women. She also served as president of the Daughters of Zion, as well the Free Union, the first society for African American women. She was a leader in the black women's Masonic movement.

Delaney was secretary to a black veteran's group after the Civil War. She belonged to the Col. Shaw Woman's Relief Corps, No. 34, a women's auxiliary to the Col. Shaw Post, 343, Grand Army of the Republic (GAR). The veterans' group was named after the white commanding officer of the 54th Massachusetts Infantry, the first of the United States Colored Troops and a unit that achieved renown for courage in the Civil War. Delaney dedicated her memoir to the GAR, which had fought for the freedom of enslaved people.

Memoir
In 1891, Delaney published her From the Darkness Cometh the Light, or, Struggles for Freedom, the only first-person account of a freedom suit. The text is also classified as a slave narrative, most of which were published prior to the Civil War and Emancipation. The book accomplishes the following:

"Polly releases motherhood from its ties to 'pure womanhood's' fragility, realigning nurture with liberation. Hardly feminine genuflection, Polly's triumph in male-dominated courts is matched by her daughter's refusal to be whipped. Darkness culminates in Delaney's perpetuating her dead mother's legacy of freedom in her election to numerous civic posts, including the presidency of the 'Female Union'—the first society for African American women—and of the Daughters of Zion."

- Deborah Garfield, The Concise Oxford Companion to African American Literature

Death and legacy
She died at the Negro Masonic Home, purchased by the Freemasons for aged members and widows in 1907, in Hannibal, Missouri on August 31, 1910. Funeral services were held for her at the St. James African Methodist Episcopal Church in St. Louis, sponsored by the Heroines of Jericho. She was buried in Greenwood Cemetery in St. Louis.

The city of St. Louis has frequently acknowledged Lucy Ann Berry's significance to local and national Black History.

title: Lucy A. Delaney


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File:Picture Of Perfect Youth.jpg

Cover of Picture of Perfect Youth by Feeder. Copyright Echo Records.

Record cover to illustrate the article about the recording, Feeder discography, and the relevant period in the history of Feeder. Although the picture is subject to copyright I (Nightfreak) feel and assert that it is covered by the U.S. fair use laws because:

 * it is a low resolution copy of an LP cover;
 * it does not limit the copyright owner's rights to sell the LP in any way;
 * no free alternative is available;
 * its use is commensurate with usage throughout discographies and album listings across the World Wide Web;
 * its low resolution means copies could not be used to make illegal copies of the album artwork on a CD or LP.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: File:Picture Of Perfect Youth.jpg


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Charles Mason (Revolutionary)

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was - deleted - SimonP 15:44, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Charles Mason (Revolutionary)
User's 6th edit. 66.60.159.190 20:09, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn vanity page. and I would like to add that capitalists can not call themselves "revolutionaries" ! Revolución 16:48, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep A revolutionary is made so by the context in which he speaks, not by the content of his speech. El beatle 18:46, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep What? Vanity page?  If you talk to those who know about these things in the UK, this is hardly a vanity page.  This is a man who was imprisoned for a lengthy period of time for his beliefs, and has never fully recovered from his experiences.  Talk to any genuine left-wing student at any of Britain's more 'academic' universities, and you'll find his name held in the highest esteem.  It's mainly due to the UK's capitalist press that he's been almost excised from general political consciousness (such as it exists now in the UK) - not the case whilst the Morning Star (Socialist Worker) was still around.  Is this yet another attempt by capitalist society to try to delete this hero of so many true socialists from ever having existed?
 * This was posted by an anon, User:82.7.132.128. --Idont Havaname 19:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. No albums yet.  His wife was Shiraz and his daughter is Chardonnay.  I suspect a hoax. --Idont Havaname 19:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * "His first music album (provisionally titled Bluff and Hokum)..." Delete. Unreferenced. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 20:02, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Replace, as unverifiable, with Charles Dixon of Mason-Dixon Line fame. Actually I'll do that myself. Keep.
 * Nevermind, I'm an idiot. Delete.--Scimitar 20:55, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep They ran a piece in the Guardian on him a while back, and he named his children after grapes purely because his wife already had a grape name.
 * This is User:62.252.224.17's first vote.
 * Comment: Fine, I looked on the Guardian website and didn't find him. They go back to 1998. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep actually met the guy after his release. Cool unfazed - inspirational Agitprop 22:53, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment:  First two edits by . --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:01, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, hoax, nonsense. RickK 23:17, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn vanity. --Etacar11 00:40, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nonsense vanity. JamesBurns 11:21, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep How many of those voting delete are in touch with true socialism? This guy is not into vanity.
 * Vote was posted by an anon, User:217.137.154.3. First edit by this user. --Idont Havaname 19:20, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Is this just another attempt to rewrite history so that nobody knowsthe fight CM fought against oppression - looks that way to me.
 * This is User:62.252.224.17's second vote.
 * Delete. Google doesn't have anything to say about the guy, (after filtering out Charles Dixon and misspellings of Charles Manson). Always ready to lend support in the fight against sockpuppets, (the sock puppet revolution will not be televised). func (talk) 00:02, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep I think there's a lot of supposition going on here.  Maybe MI6 are still blocking the guy.  Not fair to delete on such skimpy evidence.  Suggest we leave it up.
 * User:82.7.132.95's only edit. func (talk) 18:57, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep It shouldn't be the function of Wikipedia to try to blot out left-thinkers just because their politics don't fit in with current political fashion
 * This is User:62.252.224.17's third vote. (He's knows that we can track IP address edits, right?) func (talk) 00:00, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep I agree.  Wikipedia shouldn't support what appear to be attempts to politically censor out people who fall foul of the UK secret service
 * User:82.7.132.8's only edit. func (talk) 22:11, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep That's the whole point some people are missing here. Of course he doesn't show up anywhere.  Wikipedia is the one place the thought police can't get at - though I see they're trying to.  I'm a student at LSE in London, and there are lecturers here who say they know of this guy from way back - I believe them.
 * has 31 edits, 28 made today, 3 made yesterday, after this vote began. (Note: Obviously, I am a card-carrying member of both the CIA, MI6, and of the Thought Police) func (talk) 15:19, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep I went to Sheffield University during the 90s and seem to remember a brief article in the student paper about him - we had a discussion about it with lecturers in the Department (Politics) and one of them had studied with him at university, although didn't remember him particularly favourably! Slightly dubious about the conspiracy theory argument but people certainly knew about him at Sheffield - think it would be wrong to delete in case there is some kind of cover up.
 * The above edit was from . Dear Mr. 212.50.160.44, if there is a "cover up" going on, wouldn't the better place to "post" this nonsense be to news agencies rather than an encyclopedia? Please stop playing here. No one finds you funny. func (talk) 15:19, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep I hit upon this stuff a few minutes ago, and I don't believe what I see. Who is this 'Func' person anyway?  An American.  What the hell does he know about British (or indeed world) politics?  Just take a look at his user page and form your own opinion!  Who is playing games here?  Who is trying to be funny?  Lack of political awareness and a peculiar skill for playing with IP addresses does not give you the right to control who is or is not relevant to Wikipedia.  This is an international resource (including the UK), and not just for Americans, despite what you might think.  You are not the only person with an opinion.  Take a look above - this is so obviously not the work of whoever created this page.  You are entitled to your opinion, but whatever you might think, you are not a God.  Far from it.
 * Please refrain from personal attacks. The preceding vote was the first edit by User:213.116.58.30. --Idont Havaname 20:41, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Right, and as an American, I was not aware that the city of Diss derives its name from Dante's The Divine Comedy, nor did I know that Diss is a "seperatist stronghold". I appreciate your British insight into such things, thank you. func (talk) 22:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - all this anecdotal stuff is irrelevant, even assuming anyone takes it seriously. Remember Verifiability. If you can't cite sources, it doesn't matter whether the guy's real or not. RayGirvan 00:43, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep There's enough on this page alone to verify the article. This guy is obviously a cult left-wing hero, pretty well known in the UK if not in the US.  Whether or not there's some sort of attempt to obliterate him from public knowledge isn't clear, but it does seem possible, and Wikipedia shouldn't allow itself to be hijacked in this way.  Let it stay.
 * 's first edit func <span style="font-family:monospace, monospace;">(talk) 01:12, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong delete and Kill the socks ! Radiant_ >|< 11:18, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


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George Patton, Lord Glenalmond

George Patton, Lord Glenalmond, (1803 – 20 September 1869) was a Scottish politician and judge.

Life
He studied at University of Glasgow and Trinity College, Cambridge. He was Conservative Member of Parliament for Bridgwater, Somerset from 1865 to 1866. He was appointed Solicitor-General for Scotland in 1859 and Lord Advocate in 1866, and nominated himself for appointment to the bench as Lord Justice Clerk in 1867 with the judicial title Lord Glenalmond, partly to avoid inquiry into charges of bribery in connection with his election to Parliament. He was sworn as a Privy Counsellor in November 1867. He committed suicide in September 1869.

In 1866 he was living at 30 Heriot Row, Edinburgh.

Glenalmond College
The school now known as Glenalmond College was built on land given by George Patton who for the rest of his life, in company with his wife, took a keen interest in its development and success.

Family
On 25 March 1857 in Edinburgh, he married Margaret Bethune (1823-1899). She was the younger daughter of Lieutenant-General Alexander Bethune of Blebo (1771-1847), son of Major-General Sir William Sharp, 6th Baronet and Margaret Bethune, and his wife Maria Low (1794-1886), daughter of Robert James Low of Clatto and his wife Susanna Elizabeth Malcolm.

There were no children. His widow continued to run the Glenalmond estate for the rest of her life and on 2 January 1871 in Edinburgh married Robert Malcolm.

title: George Patton, Lord Glenalmond


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Talk:Technophilia

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Wikicho7.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2019 and 15 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kh928. Peer reviewers: LokiLaufeyson2019.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 10:47, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
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Politics of technology
Also mention conservatism/liberalism in technophobia/technophilia EnerJen

 * There are people of both views in both political camps. Noclevername 00:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Sentence in opening Paragraph
What does this sentence mean?:

"Technophilia is the antimodernist epigee of postmodern existence from the soft aesthetics of taste"

It may be an important statement, but it seems way to intellectually dense for the first paragraph of an encyclopedia article. mennonot 10:07, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. It is written from an innaccessible, intellectualist standpoint. I've marked it confusing and technical. ··gracefool |☺ 03:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

"Epigee" is not a word I could find in the dictionary.

Perhaps the author meant apogee, and is not as intellectual as they are trying to appear... --Ratinox 14:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Correct: "Epigee" is not found in the dictionary. This includes the newest unabridged verison of the Merriam Webster dictionary. Also, while "Apogee" is similar, I do not think it is contextually appropriate to use it, a word meaning the point of a satellite's orbit where it is farthest from the Earth's core. The first statement should be edited to be understandable to the common user. 71.126.89.38 01:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)freedomlinux

'Epigee' means 'upon the earth' (http://dict.die.net/epigee/)

Jesus wept
Here are the two major complaints: "The technophiliac aesthetic is comfortable function." and "the idea of technophilia is also used in connection with a behavior which realizes forms of sexual deviance with the help of the computer and the Internet." - FrancisTyers · 08:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Sexual deviance?
I do not believe technophilia necessarily implies any kind of sexual deviance whatsoever. Defined by Merriam Webster, a technophile is merely an enthusiast of technology. A sexual deviant who is an enthusiast of technology should be classified as a sexual deviant, not just a technophile

Removing tags
I've removed all the tags from this article after doing some clean up. --Loremaster 09:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Technophilia


text:
Zac Moncrief

Zachary Thomas Moncrief (born January 8, 1971) is an American artist, producer, director, and writer in the animation industry. He's currently a co-executive producer on Netflix's pre-school series Ghee Happy. His titles have included supervising producer, writer, supervising director, storyboard artist, designer, and songwriter. In 2009, an episode from Phineas and Ferb, which he directed entitled "The Monster of Phineas-n-Ferbenstein", received a Primetime Emmy Award nomination in the category for Outstanding Special Class Short-format Animated Programs.

Personal life
Moncrief left Montvale, New Jersey in 1989 after graduating from Pascack Hills High School where his father was the vice principal. Upon completion of high school, he decided to attend California Institute of the Arts, a Disney-funded college specializing in animation.

Career
Zac Moncrief's career began as an intern on the animated feature, The Pagemaster, and then moved on as an assistant animator on the film Cats Don't Dance. While there, he sold a pilot to Fred Seibert (then president of MTV Networks and Hanna-Barbera), for the What a Cartoon! series titled Godfrey and Zeek. This transitioned into doing story work for Hanna-Barbera's other series, Johnny Bravo.

Moncrief went on to open his own company, creating animation on several CD-ROMs, as well as a commercial work featuring Warner Bros.' Road Runner, the Carl's Jr. spot featuring Dennis Rodman, as well as animation for a GM-sponsored ride at Walt Disney World. Soon after, Moncrief joined Seibert again on a shorts program at Nickelodeon called Oh Yeah! Cartoons. There, Moncrief created Kitty the Hapless Cat, Baxter and Bananas, and worked on other shorts like The Fairly OddParents and the Emmy winning short Max and His Special Problem. He spent his remaining time at Nickelodeon storyboarding in season one ofDora the Explorer.

Shortly thereafter, he was asked to teach at his alma mater (CalArts) and by Walt Disney Television Animation to storyboard on Teacher's Pet, the series (and its theatrical release), as well as direct-to-videos for Lilo & Stitch, Kim Possible, and the network's newest show, Brandy and Mr. Whiskers.

Moncrief then went on as a Director on the Fox animated series Family Guy working on some of Seth MacFarlane's favorite episodes, such as "The Griffin Family History" and "Barely Legal".

He then followed fellow Family Guy director Dan Povenmire back to Disney again to help direct over 50+ episodes of the hit Disney television series Phineas and Ferb.

After his long run at Disney, he spent three years working at Bento Box as the Supervising Director on Comedy Central's hit show Brickleberry, while also helping to develop shows at Nickelodeon.

In December 2013, he joined Warner Bros. Animation to produce and revamp the twelfth series in the Scooby-Doo franchise, titled Be Cool, Scooby-Doo!, which debuted in the fall of 2015.

After producing close to 52 episodes and almost 2 seasons for Warner Bros., he then went back to Nickelodeon as a Supervising Producer in the fall of 2017 to help oversee and launch a cartoon series based on the hit Dan Schneider television show Henry Danger. This new animated series, titled The Adventures of Kid Danger, debuted on January 15, 2018, as a sneak peek, before its official premiere on January 19. The shows' ratings stayed consistently in the top 25, and on its final premiere episodes during the week of June 11–17, 2018, it was the #1 program for K6–11 (it received at 2.91 for boys aged 2–5 and a 3.15 for boys aged 6–11). The show is currently not slated for more episodes.

Moncrief then went on to be the Artistic Lead/Showrunner on the television adaption of the popular Lego augmented reality game app Hidden Side, with the title of Supervising Director. While working with Pure Imagination Studios, Moncrief created 19 different shorts for Lego, and launched off a 44-minute movie as a way to introduce its newest IP. The series premiered on YouTube to record numbers earning it a slot airing on Cartoon Network.

Moncrief is currently working with Sanjay Patel as Co-Executive Producer on Ghee Happy for Netflix Animation Studios. The show has yet to release its air date.

Highlights

 * Phineas and Ferb 	     (2D - Kids and Family) 	• Director, writer and board artist on over 60+ episodes
 * LEGO: HIDDEN SIDE 	 (3D - Kids and Family) 	• Creative lead directing artists and voice talent taking 20 episodes from script through post delivery
 * Be Cool, Scooby- Doo!  (2D - Kids and Family) 	• Creative lead in the reimagining of legacy characters producing 52 episodes
 * Brickleberry 		  (2D- Adult) 			    • Artistic lead to 1st time animation show creators for the first 2 seasons
 * GHEE HAPPY 		     (3D - Pre-School) 		• Co-Ep involved in story, writing, song writing, and directing

Phineas and Ferb
In 2007, Moncrief returned to Disney to work as a director and writer for Phineas and Ferb. As of December 2012, he had directed over 50 episodes in the series and been credited on over 90+ different credits.

Family Guy
In 2005, Moncrief left Disney to become a director on the Fox television series Family Guy for Fox Animation Studios. He directed six episodes over a two-year span. Those six episodes were: During this period, he also returned to CalArts as a teacher.
 * "Peter's Got Woods", first aired on September 11, 2005
 * "Brian Sings and Swings", first aired on January 8, 2006
 * "Untitled Griffin Family History", first aired on May 14, 2006
 * "Barely Legal", first aired on December 17, 2006
 * "It Takes a Village Idiot, and I Married One", first aired on May 13, 2007
 * "Peter's Daughter", first aired on November 25, 2007
 * "Blind Ambition", first aired on May 15, 2005 (assistant director)

Credits
Note: Also credited as Zachary Moncrief.

Below is a detailed list of his credits:

 Turner Feature Animation:

 * The Pagemaster (1994) - Coordinator and animation intern
 * Cats Don't Dance (1997) - Assistant animator

 Hanna-Barbera:

 * What a Cartoon!: Godfrey and Zeek short (also misspelled "Zeke") (1996) - Co-creator, co-writer, storyboard artist, and director
 * What a Cartoon!: "Jungle Boy" (short from Johnny Bravo) (1996) - Character layout and additional models
 * Johnny Bravo (1996–1997) - Development and storyboard artist
 * Johnny Bravo: "Bearly Enough Time" (1997) - Storyboard artist
 * Johnny Bravo: "Cookie Crisis" (1997) - Storyboard artist
 * Johnny Bravo: "Blarney Buddies" (1997) - Storyboard artist

' Nickelodeon's Oh Yeah! Cartoons:'

 * Kitty the Hapless Cat - Creator, director, designer, storyboard artist, writer
 * Baxter and Bananas - Creator, director, designer, storyboard artist, writer
 * The Fairly OddParents: Story & Storyboard artist for two episodes
 * Mina and the Count: "Playing a Hunch" (1999) - Storyboard artist
 * Max and His Special Problem - Animator
 * Max and the Pigeon Incident - Storyboard clean-up and character model assistance
 * Tales from the Goose Lady - Storyboard clean-up and character model assistance

 Nickelodeon:

 * Dora the Explorer: Season 1 (2000–2001) - Storyboard artist
 * The Fairly OddParents: Seasons 2 and 3 - Storyboard revisionist
 * My Life as a Teenage Robot - Storyboard Revisions and additional model designer
 * Woodstump - Supervising director, storyboard artist, co-writer
 * The Adventures of Kid Danger (2017–2018) - Director and supervising producer

 Disney Television Animation:
 * Teacher's Pet - Storyboard artist
 * Kim Possible: Season 1 - Storyboard revisionist
 * Lilo & Stitch: The Series - additional storyboard artist and Storyboard revisionist
 * Kim Possible: Season 2 - Storyboard artist
 * Lilo & Stitch 2: Stitch Has a Glitch - Storyboard artist
 * Brandy & Mr. Whiskers - storyboard artist
 * Phineas and Ferb - Director, storyboard supervisor, writer, storyboard artist

 Other Credits:
 * Fox Television Animation:
 * Family Guy (2005–2007) - Director
 * American Dad! (2014-present) - Producer and supervising director
 * Comedy Central: Brickleberry - Director and supervising director
 * Warner Bros. Animation: Be Cool, Scooby-Doo! (2015–2018) - Producer

title: Zac Moncrief


text:
Cumulativity (linguistics)

In linguistic semantics, an expression X is said to have cumulative reference if and only if the following holds: If X is true of both of a and b, then it is also true of the combination of a and b. Example: If two separate entities can be said to be "water", then combining them into one entity will yield more "water". If two separate entities can be said to be "a house", their combination cannot be said to be "a house". Hence, "water" has cumulative reference, while the expression "a house" does not. The plural form "houses", however, does have cumulative reference. If two (groups of) entities are both "houses", then their combination will still be "houses".

Cumulativity has proven relevant to the linguistic treatment of the mass/count distinction and for the characterization of grammatical telicity.

Formally, a cumulative predicate CUM can be defined as follows, where capital X is a variable over sets, U is the universe of discourse, p is a mereological part structure on U, and $$\oplus_p$$ is the mereological sum operation.

$ (\forall X\subseteq U_p)(CUM(X)\iff \exists x,y(X(x) \wedge X(y) \wedge x\neq y) \wedge \forall x,y(X(x) \wedge X(y) \Rightarrow X(x \oplus_p y))) $

In later work, Krifka has generalized the notion to n-ary predicates, based on the phenomenon of cumulative quantification. For example, the two following sentences appear to be equivalent:
 * John ate an apple and Mary ate a pear.
 * John and Mary ate an apple and a pear.

This shows that the relation "eat" is cumulative. In general, an n-ary predicate R is cumulative if and only if the following holds:

$ (\forall x_1,\ldots, x_n, y_1,\ldots, y_n)(R(x_1, \ldots,x_n)\wedge R(y_1, \ldots,y_n)) \rightarrow R(x_1\oplus y_1, \ldots,x_n\oplus y_n) $

title: Cumulativity (linguistics)


text: File:David Cross - Shut Up You Fucking Baby front cover.jpg


text:
Talk:Kabyle language

Untitled
Algeria Kabylie : 4.5 million Algiers : 50-70% so ~ 1 million others : ~ 500,000 (annaba, constantine, setif,...)

France : ~1,0 million (immigration since 1900')

and Canada, US, Belgium, Netherlands and Liban, Palestinne, Syrie (since 1870'-1880 "révolte des Mokranis" - during french colonisation) : 50-100,000

- Yacine O., Annaba, Algeria. 5 june.

 * Ethnologue profile for Kabyle:

 * Population
 * 2,537,000 in Algeria (1995). Estimates by some sources are up to 6,000,000 in Algeria (1998). 49,000 in Belgium. Population total all countries: 3,123,000.

 * I'm reverting back. — Khoikhoi 18:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I think we should give a range rather than one number or the other. — Khoikhoi 18:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Map
Image:Kabyle-speaking-map.jpg is rubbish. It: Please keep this piece of unsuccessful guesswork out of Wikipedia, and use the academically sourced map Image:Kabyle-map.jpg until such time as someone produces something larger-scale and at least equally well-sourced. - Mustafaa 19:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * includes Algiers, which does not have a Kabyle-speaking majority;
 * includes Boumerdes, which does not have a Kabyle-speaking majority;
 * includes Dellys, which does not have a Kabyle-speaking majority (though the first Kabyle-speaking villages on the coast west of Algiers start almost immediately west of Dellys);
 * includes Jijel, which is not Kabyle-speaking at all (though their dialect of Arabic is heavily Kabyle-influenced, and Jijel might be considered "ethnically" Kabyle, whatever that would mean);
 * includes the Chenoua language, which (despite its location) is more similar to Chaouia than to Kabyle;
 * includes the town of Cherchell, which (unlike the villages around it) speaks Arabic;
 * is completely unsourced.

(sorry I speak badly english) It is not a map of Kabylie (or of the kabyle' wilaya) but a map showing areas where Kabyle is spoken Kabyle is spoken in Algiers, Cherchell or Boumerdes, north of wilaya Setif, ect... in Algiers, more 50% of population are kabyle (and speak kabyle and arabic dialect), and this is the same for Boumerdes, Jilel, Setif, ect.. and in Cherchell there are a big immigration of kabyle who speak kabyle (a famous example is Baaziz, a singer). It is not a story of majority because or else we can say arabic (because it's official language) is spoken in Tizi Ouzou, Bouira and in Bejaia so even your map is rubish.

anyway, in any case your map is nonsense, because he show just the border of the wilaya of Tizi, Bouira and Bejaia but no "where Kabyle is spoken".

-source of map: you can see that for example on: aricle of the reliable newspapers L'Expresse] (L'Expresse)

 * A map showing anywhere that anybody spoke Kabyle would have to cover the whole of Europe - London, Quebec, Paris, Marseille, not to mention Oran or Saudi Arabia. What the map has to show is areas where a majority speak Kabyle.
 * Your claims are incorrect. Kabyle is spoken by much less than 50% in Algiers, Boumerdes, and Jijel, let alone Cherchell.
 * My map does not have any connection to wilaya boundaries. For example, it excludes Dellys and Boumerdes but includes Thenia and Bordj Menaiel, though all are in Boumerdes.
 * The L'Expresse map shows a very poor rendition of Kabylie, not where Kabyle is spoken, and even it disagrees with your map. Nor is L'Expresse an academically reliable source: it doesnt even explain who produced the map, nor on what data it is based. - Mustafaa 18:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Mustafaa, tu parles français? (do you speak french?)

 * For the record, I support keeping Mustafaa's well-sourced map rather than the newer one, which indeed seems inaccurate. — mark ✎ 06:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I've put together a new, much more detailed map based on Basset 1936 (see Image:Kabyle.gif for full bibliographic details.) Input welcomed... - Mustafaa 11:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Please, Mustafaa do you speak french?

Oui, malgre que je ne l'utilise pas beaucoup. Pourquoi? - Mustafaa 14:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

La nouvelle carte que j'y ai placé est fondée sur la carte très détaillé d'André Basset, Atlas Linguistique des Parlers Berbères: Algérie - Territoires du Nord, Université d'Alger, Institut des Etudes Orientales 1936. - Mustafaa 15:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Grammar
Could someone more familiar than I with Kabyle possibly add more examples, notably of: nouns that do not follow the general gender prefixes/suffixes, as well as the verb tenses? If there could also be a pronunciation guide added for the sample words, that would be very nice. One more thing to note, Chenoua language makes several references to Kabyle, notably on the subject of Adjectives and Numbers, it would likely benefit both articles if someone could elaborate on them. -- Dalrymple 04:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

GA comments
Hey y'all:

This article shows tons of hard work! I am impressed! KUTGW!

Unfortunately, it will probably get quick-failed :-( at WP:GAC because of a near-total lack of citations. See the FA Mayan languages for an example to follow...

Later! --Ling.Nut 23:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I am failing this sorry, to add to the above the article contains too many lists and tables, one sentence sections, and one sentence paragraphs thus making it fail the "Well-written" criteria. M3tal H3ad 08:10, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

404
Deleting dead link from Online dictionaries:
 * kabyle.com Sort of wiktionary.

Thnidu (talk) 18:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Fricatives vs. stops
This article doesn't make it clear whether the stops are allophones of the fricatives or have phonemic status. Mo-Al (talk) 17:30, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

ref to displacement by other written language needs help
current version states "Tifinagh alphabet disappeared in the 7th century, when Latin became the official and administrative language in North Africa (as in rest of ex-Roman empire)."

This statement cannot be accurate, as Latin became the official and administrative language with the Roman conquest in the 2nd century BC, remaining until the Vandal conquest in the fifth century AD. The Byzantines returned briefly in the 7th century but Greek was their official language, and they were followed in the late 7th century by the Arabs, who would have considered Latin the language of their arch enemy and never used it as an official language.

However, I have not yet changed it because I don't whether "..disappeared in the 2nd century BC, when Latin became the official.." or "..disappeared in the 7th century, when (Greek OR Arabic) became the official.." would be more faithful to facts.

I was not able to successfully research this. someone else will need to take up that torch..

Old books of historical interest
Notions succinctes de grammaire kabyle (1881)

https://archive.org/details/NotionsSuccinctesDeGrammaireKabyle

Cours de langue kabyle (1887)

https://archive.org/details/CoursDeLangueKabyle

dictionnaire kabyle (1901)

https://archive.org/details/DictionnaireKabyle

Rajmaan (talk) 07:46, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

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Population estimate
The estimate of "three million" is from the 2003 International Encyclopedia of Linguistics. This encyclopedia used Ethnologue as its source and described Ethnologue as "a comprehensive listing of the world's languages, with genetic classification" (source). It seems that no more recent edition of this encyclopedia exists. That's why I suggest we only use Ethnologue's latest estimate (guesstimate?) as 1/ it is way more recent 2/ it is a reliable source 3/ the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics was based on Ethnologue anyway.

What do you think @M.Bitton? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:10, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

 * Another recent reliable source: Asya Pereltsvaig 2020, Languages of the World, p. 203: 5.6 million. I note that the Algerian population has grown by 40% since 2003. So the 2003 figure is definitely outdated. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The International Encyclopedia of Linguistics cites Chaker 1983 as one of its sources (for the whole section, not only for population), however Chaker 2004 gives 5.5 million for the number of speakers. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 20:09, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) Algeria's population growing by 40% since 2003 doesn't explain the 120% jump in the number of Kabyle speakers (as claimed by Ethnologue), especially given the fact that the number of Berber speakers has been declining in general. 2) Asya Pereltsvaig also makes another claim that is at odds with Ethnologue's: 2.5 million Kabyle speakers in Algeria (compared to the 6,200,000 claimed by Ethnologue). 3) as one of its sources he's cited in the bibliography section as one, among many sources that were used used. What source does Ethnologue cite to back its claims? M.Bitton (talk) 23:33, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The 40% population growth alone doesn't explain the difference, but it shows that the 2003 figure is outdated.
 * Pereltsvaig's Languages of the World 3rd edition (published in 2020) says "5.6 million Kabyle speakers mainly in Algeria". Which is close to Ethnologue's estimate. You're citing the 1st edition (published in 2012), which has of course been superseded by the 2nd and then 3rd editions as explained in their respective introductions.
 * My point is that the International Encyclopedia of Linguistics citing Chaker 1983 confirms that Salem Chaker is a reliable source. And one year later, Chaker provided estimates in line with Pereltsvaig and Ethnologue. Ethnologue sources are listed here and there.
 * That's why I suggest keeping the 2003 in the text but removing it from the lead and the infobox as it is outdated and as we have two recent (2020) reliable sources (Pereltsvaig and Ethnologue) agreeing on 6–7 million speakers worldwide, mainly in Algeria. What do you think? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:05, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 1. The 40% population growth, when compared to the extraordinary 120% growth of the speakers (as claimed by Ethnologue), shows that something is not right (the numbers don't add up).
 * 2. a) Pereltsvaig's claim is not close to Ethnologue's. b) The unexplained change from the 2012 to the 2020 is unaccounted for, though "mainly" doesn't mean much (is it 3, 4 million or more?). At least the change from the 2017 edition (5.5 million) to the 2020 edition seems to make sense.
 * 3. Chaker is a Paris-based Berber activist, and therefore, not an WP:INDEPENDENT source with regard to the number of speakers. Furthermore, Ethnologue's WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim, which isn't backed by any of their cited sources, is not in line with the highest next estimate. It surpasses it by 1.2 million (which is a lot, given the small number involved).
 * 4. According to Matthias Brenzinger, the number of Kabyle speakers in Algeria is 2.5 to 3 million. Again, Ethnolgue's extraordinary claim surpasses this one by 3.2 million.
 * Ultimately, since all these numbers are nothing but claims, our choice is rather simple: we can either present all of them to the readers and let them come to their own conclusions or we can remove the extremes from the lead and the infobox and keep the conservative estimate (circa 5.6 million). M.Bitton (talk) 16:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes something is not right: the 2003 figure may be underestimated.
 * "The unexplained change from the 2012 to the 2020 is unaccounted for": I guess it was a mistake that they fixed?
 * Chaker is RS but yes he may be biased. I don't think Ethnologue's figure is extraordinary compared to the other recent we have.
 * Brenzinger seems to be a good source that is more recent.
 * So we could exclude the 2003 source and replace it by Brenzinger 2015. And then, let readers come to their own conclusions.
 * Unless we find another recent RS? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:11, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Ethnologue's claim is indeed extraordinary and I have given enough examples to show that it is. So, either we present all of them of we do what I suggested as a compromise. M.Bitton (talk) 17:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * What I suggested was: in the lead and in the infobox we stick to recent RS: Brenzinger 2015, Pereltsvaig 2020 and Ethnologue 2022.
 * In the rest of the article, we can expand more and cite the 2003 source, Chaker, etc.
 * Because we cannot present all sources in the lead and in the infobox. We have to choose.
 * And I don't think we should "compromise" and cut in the middle among recent RS. What if Pereltsvaig and Ethnologue were wrong and Brenzinger was right? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:19, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * These are all unsubstantiated claims (they could all be wrong for all we know). Do you mean we keep the 3 million figure and attribute it to Brenzinge? M.Bitton (talk) 17:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:30, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Fine by me (as long as the change concerns the source and nothing else). M.Bitton (talk) 17:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I've just edited, let me know if that's okay for you. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:41, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * That's not what we agreed and Brenzinge's claim is about Algeria (not Kabylia). I think it's best to list everything and let the readers come to their own conclusion and have therefore restored the source that you removed. M.Bitton (talk) 17:50, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I misunderstood you. The 2003 source is still in "Distribution". I think the lead and the infobox should focus on recent sources. We could have in the lead: "Recent estimates of the number of Kabyle speakers range from..." (and leave historical estimates below in the rest of the article) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:53, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I've just found another recent RS by Prof. Bruce Maddy-Weitzman: Routledge Handbook of Minorities in the Middle East (2018) => "more than 5 million" in Algeria only (20%*39m*2/3 = 5.2m)
 * So we have:
 * 2003: 3.1m globally / 2.5m in Algeria
 * 2015: 2.5-3m in Algeria
 * 2018: 5.2m in Algeria (and "Between 1 and 2 million Berbers live in the Diaspora" [not only Kabyles])
 * 2020: 5.6m worldwide / "mainly" in Algeria
 * 2022: 6.8m worldwide / 6.2m in Algeria
 * a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * 2003 is not "historical". Feel free to add the other claim. The readers are smart enough to work it out by themselves. M.Bitton (talk) 17:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * We have three recent RS that give 5–7 million Kabyle-speakers in the world. And two older that give ~3m globally. + Chaker 2004 6m So now I think we can choose the average of the recent estimates and say "circa 6 million" in the lead and the infobox. (which was your alternative suggestion) And add all the various estimates in "Distribution". What do you think? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't understand. First, you challenge the sources that aren't "not centered on the topic" and then you bring one (Bruce Maddy) that isn't. M.Bitton (talk) 18:36, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't understand you either:
 * When did I challenge sources not centered in this discussion?
 * Bruce Maddy is a Professor Emeritus in the Department of Middle Eastern and African History at Tel Aviv University. He wrote a chapter called "The Berbers (Amazigh)" in a book about "Minorities in the Middle East". Hard to be more centered on the topic...
 * a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 19:43, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * That's what you did when editing the article and Bruce Maddy doesn't give any estimate of the "Kabyle speakers". M.Bitton (talk) 19:48, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * You mean here when I removed a old link about Kabyle music that has nothing to do in the "External links"? How is this related to our discussion?
 * Maddy gives estimates for each Berber variety: "Speakers of Tachelhit, constituting roughly 8 million persons, are concentrated in the High Atlas and Anti-Atlas mountains and valleys and southeast pre-desert area. Speakers of Tamazight (the same term used to denote the Berber language as a whole), numbering 3 million persons, are centered in the Middle Atlas region. Speakers of Tarifit, also numbering approximately 3 million persons, live primarily in the Rif Mountains of the north. Berbers constitute roughly 20% of Algeria’s population of 39 million. Two-thirds of them (more than 5 million) are Kabyles, originating in the mountainous Kabylie region  between Algiers and Constantine, whose dialect is Taqbaylit."
 * I guess you argue that Maddy says that there are more than 5 million ethnic Kabyles and that the dialect of Kabyles is historically Taqbaylit but that not all ethnic Kabyles speak Kabyle/Taqbaylit? This other source from the same author makes it more explicit then: Berbers (Amazigh) in The Wiley Blackwell Encyclopedia of Race, Ethnicity and Nationalism 2016 (edited by Rutledge Dennis and Anthony D. Smith): "Algerian Berbers, numbering approximately 20–25 percent of the country’s total population, are divided into two primary groups and four smaller ones: Kabyles, speakers of Taqbaylit, numbering five million persons and residing in the mountainous Kabylie region between Algiers and Constantine" a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 20:15, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The Encyclopædia Universalis gives seven million: "langue berbère parlée en Kabylie par environ 7 millions de personnes" a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 20:19, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * All I see is "claims made in passing" and contradicting each other to boot. Give them all to the readers and let make whatever they want with them. M.Bitton (talk) 20:23, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Ethnologue and the Encyclopædia Universalis are tertiary sources: these are not "claims made in passing". The other sources are centered on Berber people, Berber languages, or Kabyles. Again, the number of speakers is not "made in passing". We should give the consensus of reliable sources. And not just provide all the numbers and give undue weight to some sources.
 * And from what I understand, the consensus of recent RS is c. 6 million Kabyle speakers. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 20:35, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * They are very much claims made in passing as they are not substantiated by a census or other on the ground research. If they were, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but this is not the case, which explains why each one of them is plucking a number from god knows where and calling it a day. Cherry picking some sources would be giving UNDUE to some of them, but so long as all of them are considered "reliable" (a big statement in this case), then it's not our job to decide which one is wrong in its claim. M.Bitton (talk) 20:44, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Since 1966, the Algerian census no longer has had a category for Berbers and languages. All these sources therefore extrapolate based on this census and other data they have.
 * I don't suggest cherry picking some sources but choosing a figure in the infobox that is the viewpoint of the majority of recent reliable sources. That viewpoint is about 6 million speakers. (it was also your suggestion to "remove the extremes from the lead and the infobox and keep the conservative estimate (circa 5.6 million)." a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 21:32, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The infobox is fine as it is I didn't realize that you edited the infobox . Anyway, to stop this discussion from being dragged out, I'm fine with having the 3 million in Algeria and the 5.6 million worldwide. What do you think? M.Bitton (talk) 21:39, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * It's not a bargain, we have to follow reliable sources. For the population in Algeria, they're not clear. For the population worldwide 6 million seems to be the consensus. So I would put 6 million in the infobox and the lead and then detail in "Number of speakers". a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 22:02, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * If we start following what is clear and what isn't, then none of them is. M.Bitton (talk) 22:06, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * What is clear is that we have the following sources:
 * Lacoste-Dujardin 2001: 4m in Kabylia
 * International Encyclopedia of Linguistics 2003: 2.5m in Kabylia / 3.1m worldwide
 * Chaker 2004: 3–3.5m in Kabylia / 5.5m worldwide
 * Brenzinger 2015: 2.5–3m in Algeria
 * Maddy-Weitzman 2016 & 2018: 5m in Kabylia / "Between 1 and 2 million Berbers live in the Diaspora" [not only Kabyles]
 * Pereltsvaig 2020: 5.6m worldwide "mainly in Algeria"
 * Ethnologue 2022: 6.2m in Algeria / 6.8m worldwide
 * Encyclopædia Universalis (year?): 7m worldwide
 * So I see a consensus for circa 6m worldwide as of 2022. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 22:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * You see what you want to see. Here's what I see: an article that presents to the readers all the information (baseless and contradictory claims) that they need without making a decision for them. I like the way it is. M.Bitton (talk) 22:21, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
 * @M.Bitton I understand that you like it but I don't think that's the way we should do. In the infobox and the lead we should summarize the information, not delve into details, and not give undue weight to extraordinary claims as you mentioned earlier. Especially if these claims are older and the minority view.
 * It would be good to get more input on this though. Should I ping related Wikiprojects? (languages, Algeria, Berber?) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I asked here and there. Should I ask in WikiProject_Languages as well? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:55, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Language Diversity Endangered Citation
@M.Bitton replacing the citation to Language Diversity Endangered was just discussed on the Berber languages page, and our third opinion @Kwamikagami agreed that "2015" is not a representative date for that source. I switched it to the Leclerc citation because it uses 3 million as the number of Kabyle speakers, and it seemed like everyone agreed to accept it as a reliable source for the purposes of the article. Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 16:38, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Leclerc's numbers are used by Ethnologue, so if there is any switching to be done, it would have to be on theirs and theirs alone. In any case, I replaced it now with a more recent one. M.Bitton (talk) 16:42, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The infobox is the same as before. Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 16:43, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's time to replace Ethnologue's numbers with Leclerc's. M.Bitton (talk) 16:48, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There's no reason to use Leclerc's figures from 2004 in the infobox which should reflect the latest estimates. Leclerc's figures are already cited ("2.5 million speakers in Kabylia in 2003 out of 3.1 million worldwide") because the "International Encyclopedia of Linguistics" relied on Ethnologue's data. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:58, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Ethnologue's figures are based on them, so what applies to the 2015 source that you removed, should also apply to Ethnologue. M.Bitton (talk) 17:03, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think there's a misunderstanding: what I meant was that the numbers were identical ("3 050 800" and "3.1 million"). But I was actually mistaken: Leclerc's numbers are for Algeria only. So it's worth adding them indeed. (then I don't know why you say that Ethnologue's 2023 figures are based on Leclerc's as they don't cite Leclerc) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:49, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Simple question: what would you do if their numbers are based on Leclerc's? M.Bitton (talk) 17:55, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * forgot to ping. M.Bitton (talk) 18:01, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * (no worries, I subscribed to the discussion)
 * I'm not sure I understood. Do you mean "What if Ethnologue's 2022 figures are just updated figures from Leclerc 2004 using Leclerc's percentages and applying them to Algeria's current population?"
 * If I understood correctly, then it wouldn't change anything for me because:
 * Ethnologue is a reliable source (until proven otherwise)
 * The above method makes sense in terms of order of magnitude, even though Kabyle speakers are shifting to Arabic and it may overestimate the Kabyle population. On the other hand, Kabyle being more rural they may have more children than non Kabyle speakers, etc.
 * Other sources give similar numbers around 6 million people worldwide.
 * a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:03, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Kwamikagami emailed Ethnologue about their Kabyle figures in the 2022 edition, and they said they used Leclerc's numbers, adjusted for the 2020 population of Algeria. (This is mentioned in the Berber languages "Population - Third Opinion" discussion.) Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 18:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Perfect. (I must say I didn't read the whole wall of text that is "Population - Third Opinion"...) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:04, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Now, that you know, why should we treat Ethnologue differently from the source that you removed? M.Bitton (talk) 18:05, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Which source? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:06, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Really? The 2015 source of course. M.Bitton (talk) 18:07, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Because I understood that the 2015 source was using old data. And, in the case of the lede and the infobox, because we have more recent reliable sources and that in these parts we should keep recent estimates only. Did I misunderstand something? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:09, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * (please note that I answered your original question above @M.Bitton) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:07, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * that doesn't really answer my question, because Ethnologue is also using old data (no difference between 2001 and 2004). M.Bitton (talk) 18:11, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There are two options:
 * Either a source copy/pastes figures from another source, and in that case the date of the estimate is the date of the previous source and the recent source shouldn't be used.
 * Or, a source uses a previous estimate as a reference and updates it based on other information. For instance, using percentages from an older source and updating the number of speakers based on population changes. If the newer source is a reliable source then this process is okay.
 * I understood that the 2015 source (Brenzinger, LDE) was using the first option (that's why they both gave 3 million speakers, otherwise, had Brenzinger updated his figures based on the population growth, the total estimate would have been higher), whereas Ethnologue resorts to the second option.
 * Am I wrong? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:15, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No, the 2015 source gives different numbers for the Kabyles (2.5 to 3 million vs 2.5 million given in the source they used). So, essentially, it's the same scenario. M.Bitton (talk) 18:18, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * If that's the case then it's fine to keep Brenzinger's estimate in the "Number of speakers" subsection (where it currently is). But we shouldn't mention it in the lede and in the infobox as we have more recent RS (including one, Ethnologue, that uses the same methodology as Brenzinger). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:29, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Ethnologue 2001 says 2.5-6 million speakers, not just 2.5 million. (see: https://web.archive.org/web/20060502170527/http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_country.asp?name=Algeria) Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 18:32, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What is Ethnologue 2001? There's the 14th edition of Ethnologue released in 2000 and the 15th edition released in 2005. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:35, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That's beside the point (which is about sources using old data). M.Bitton (talk) 18:37, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The 15th edition (2005) gives: 2,537,000 in Algeria (1995). Estimates by some sources are up to 6,000,000 in Algeria (1998). 49,000 in Belgium. Population total all countries: 3,123,000. (source: https://www.ethnologue.com/15/show_language/kab/ )
 * So Brenzinger giving in 2015 "2.5 to 3 million": what did he update? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:38, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Algerian population: 1995 = 28.48 million / 2015 = 39.54 million. Brenzinger obviously didn't update anything. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:40, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Brenzinger uses the 14th edition, although it doesn't seem like the 14th and 15th editions differ regarding the estimated totals of Kabyle speakers. Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 18:39, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, so as I said above, Brenzinger didn't update any number from the 14th edition and just copy/pasted it. Goodbye Brenzinger 👋! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:41, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Nope, that's your own interpretation. Anyway, do you mind replying the below question that you keep ignoring? M.Bitton (talk) 18:43, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Have you ever tried to be nice? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:44, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You have already been warned (by someone else) for personally attacking me before (which I ignored). This is the second PA. M.Bitton (talk) 18:55, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * How is this a personal attack? I would just like you to be nicer in our discussion. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:57, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Be nice. M.Bitton (talk) 18:58, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * 🤔 a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:59, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Nope, it says 2.5 million and that is the number that is picked by others (you know that), Something else (with regard to Ethnologue): given the fact that they are using Leclerc's (whose percentages are known), don't you find it strange that their numbers don't line up with his? M.Bitton (talk) 18:34, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know, I'll ask them now! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:44, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Pereltsvaig presumably suffers from the same kinds of problems as Ethn. They're not a source we use much, so I think a broader discussion would be warranted before we start.

Mettouchi's numbers are consistent with them using Leclerc; no indication that they're an independent source. They do however estimate 2M diaspora, whereas Ethn. estimates 1M. So I left those sources for the diaspora population but not the Algerian. Unless someone finds a better source, I suspect this is probably the best we can do. I made a note in the lead as to what the population would be today if (a) Leclerc's percentage is for speakers and not just ethnicity (he does give a separate figure for Arabicized Berbers, so that's quite possible) and (b) that percentage has remained steady over the past two decades. The primary problem is that the Algerian census is not allowed to ask about language, ethnicity or religion, so it will be difficult to get around that. — kwami (talk) 22:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

 * I don't see why Mettouchi would be more reliable than Pereltsvaig, Ethnologue, or Universalis (Universalis gives 5M in Algeria and 2M in the diaspora and it is written I think by authors who "have the expertise to evaluate the numbers they're using"). They all just give a number without explaining how they reached that conclusion. It's not satisfactory for sure, but we have to follow the sources. And for what it's worth, Leclerc's methodology isn't clearer either (and his use of significant figures is non-sensical). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:24, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Don't see why I should repeat myself.
 * We certainly shouldn't claim that data from 2004 is from 2020, given as you say that the population grew substantially in that time. As for Universalis, who's the author? The EB isn't particularly reliable in such things. I only used Mettouchi because he gave a different diaspora number than Ethn. Neither are necessarily reliable. — kwami (talk) 17:03, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Kwamikagami: then we should keep the % only but not the raw numbers. And picking Mettouchi seems arbitrary as she doesn't give any reasoning for her high estimate of the diaspora. I emailed her, here's her answer: I have always given rough estimates, to give an idea, but never intended to work out the exact number of speakers. 3 million in Kabylie is probably lower range estimate. There is no census on Amazigh speakers in Algeria as you know, and from my personal experience there, Kabyle is a growing, expanding language, it has prestige among Amazigh speakers and is adopted by speakers of nearby regions. I would not be able to give a reliable estimate though. (poke @Blueshiftofdeath) So I see no reason to highlight her guesstimate specifically in the infobox. She only dropped a number in passing in an article about morphology. (it's fine to keep it in the rest of the article though).
 * The Universalis article is written by Professor Semmoud Bouziane and M'Barek REDJALA. But it actually cites a source from 2005, so not worth it in the infobox if we have more recent numbers.
 * "We certainly shouldn't claim that data from 2004 is from 2020"? What do you mean? Ethnologue says their data is from 2022 and they give 14.5% of Kabyle speakers in Algeria. So they're definitely not using Leclerc's 9.4%. Unless they made a mistake, which is possible, as @M.Bitton rightly pointed out. I asked them and I'm waiting for their answer: https://cam.ethnologue.com/contribution/13948f4e-5716-4977-ad06-33e78e37d592 ). In any case, Ethnologue is a RS (or at least that's what other RS say) so if Ethnologue's editors consider that they can keep the % of Kabyle speakers constant to update the absolute number of speakers, who are we to judge and dismiss their methodology? Unless we don't consider Ethnologue to be RS for population figures, but that's a broader debate that should go to WP:RSN. Should we start it? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:48, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm concerned, Ethnologue is not RS. We already know that they are using Leclerc's, so there is no reason to use them, especially since they seem to be struggling with simple arithmetic. M.Bitton (talk) 16:57, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with dropping the Mettouchi estimate for the diaspora. But yeah, the Ethn. data is 2004 adjusted to 2020. Better IMO to give the raw 2004 data and let the reader do the calculation if they like. That way they'll at least have a better idea what the numbers mean. — kwami (talk) 20:01, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Kwamikagami: have you read my message? Ethnologue (26th ed.) is NOT "2004 adjusted to 2020". They may have made a mistake but they give 14.5% of Kabyle speakers in Algeria (2022) while Leclerc 2004 gives 9.4%.
 * OK to drop the Mettouchi's (inflated) estimate for the diaspora from the infobox and the lede. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:14, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Then it's simply uncited, because they say the number is Leclerc adjusted to 2020. So hardly a RS. I can ask again; perhaps Kabyle is from some other source than the other 2020 figures. — kwami (talk) 10:27, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * As I said above, I've already asked them: https://cam.ethnologue.com/contribution/13948f4e-5716-4977-ad06-33e78e37d592?returnTo=
 * "they say the number is Leclerc adjusted to 2020": when? In the 24th or 25th edition? They may have changed their methodology since then and updated the number accordingly. (or it may be a mistake)
 * In any case, the 26th edition is currently NOT an update of Leclerc. Let's wait for their answer... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:57, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Either their number is based on Leclerc's (in which case, we don't need their miscalculation) or it's unsourced. Their "methodology" is as meaningless as their made up numbers. M.Bitton (talk) 13:14, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * We don't care whether it's sourced or not. Leclerc is not sourced either. What matters is whether the source is a reliable source or not. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:17, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * We already know that their number is based on Leclerc, so unless they can provide a valid reason (based on RS) on how they came with their new one, it will simply be ignored as the rest of their usual made-up garbage. M.Bitton (talk) 13:24, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You don't make the rules. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:24, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The rules are clear: user generated content such as Ethnologue is considered unreliable (unless proven otherwise). M.Bitton (talk) 13:36, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Ethnologue is not user-generated content. Users cannot edit it, they can only provide feedback. Then editors decide to integrate it or not. Anyway, this is not the good forum to decide whether Ethnologue is RS or not, but I would be happy to have this discussion. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:39, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It is since it accepts contributions from anyone (literally), something that scholars would never ever do. It is the perfect place to talk about their reliability for the Kabyle estimates. M.Bitton (talk) 13:45, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Again: It does not accept contributions from anyone. Anyone can SUBMIT a feedback that is then analyzed by Ethnologue's editors and integrated (or not). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:47, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * "Analyse" is a big word that doesn't apply to those who hide their sources and methodology. M.Bitton (talk) 13:50, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree that it would be amazing to have more details about their sources and methodology. But what are the sources and methodology behind Mettouchi's and Leclerc's figures? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:57, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * All I know is that they are using Leclerc's and therefore, there is no reason for us to pay any attention to what they have to say. M.Bitton (talk) 13:58, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you please answer my question? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:03, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I did, but for some reason, you keep comparing Ethnologue (whose numbers are based on Leclerc) to scholars. M.Bitton (talk) 14:11, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't understand your answer so I repeat: what are the sources and methodology behind Mettouchi's and Leclerc's figures? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 18:07, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * We don't know. But Leclerc is the source used by multiple other scholars, so until something better comes along, at least with Leclerc we have something they evaluate to be reliable (or perhaps the least unreliable). — kwami (talk) 01:41, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, as for the Ethn. percentage of 14.5% not matching Leclerc's 9.4%, notice that several of Leclerc's entries are not reflected directly in Ethn. That is, they conflate several of them into distinct languages. That may be why Ethn. does not match L's Kabyle entry: it's actually Kabyle plus several other peoples who speak the Kabyle language, or what they judge to be dialects of Kabyle. I can't get the numbers to work, because e.g. Ghardaia is included in Moabite, but it's not a one-to-one comparison. — kwami (talk) 01:46, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There is only one Kabyle and one mozabite (tumzabt) language. Their percentages are roughly the same as in the source that I cited in the other discussion (the one that uses Leclerc for them). I think I mentioned this before, but as far as Leclerc is concerned, I wouldn't use any of their numbers for languages that are not mentioned elsewhere (in fact, many of them contradict every source out there). M.Bitton (talk) 02:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Leclerc lists ethnicities and the language spoken by each. More than one speak a language listed as a synonym for Kabyle, so the number might be more than the number of ethnic Kabyle, or that might be how Ethn interpreted it. Because otherwise they're underreporting the number of Berber speakers in their source. — kwami (talk) 05:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Leclerc only lists one Kabyle language that he treats as a Berber variety (this is repeated throughout the article). The other languages and their corresponding numbers don't make any sense and are rightfully ignored by the sources that use him. M.Bitton (talk) 12:14, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * You know as we as I do that they don't cite either their sources or their methodology (this has been mentioned in the other discussion), so why ask? Don't tell me that you're trying to compare Ethnologue to the source that they used. M.Bitton (talk) 02:05, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * FYI, here's Ethnologue's answer: Dear Antoine, Thank you for this information on the speaker population of Kabyle (Amazigh) [kab] in Algeria. Interestingly enough, I received the same message from another prominent user of the Ethnologue just a few days ago. It was decided to correct this number to one representing 9.4% of the population. Best wishes, Chuck Fennig Managing Editor, Ethnologue (source) I assume you're this other "prominent user of the Ethnologue" @Kwamikagami? Thanks for pointing the discrepancy @M.Bitton (and congrats for your first contribution to Ethnologue 😉)
 * Now we have another issue: how come Kabyle people form the minority (~1/3) of Algerian Berbers in Leclerc but the vast majority in all other sources? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 20:03, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm glad that they're finally correcting it. I wouldn't worry about Leclerc's other numbers that are not used by others (for a reason). M.Bitton (talk) 20:10, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * FYI: I asked the official Haut commissariat à l'amazighité (contact [at] hcamazighite [dot] dz) about data on the number of speakers, their answer was: Bonjour; Aucune source fiable, Notre pays n'effectue pas ce genre de recensement. Cordialement
 * I still think the inconsistency in Leclerc number is problematic. I mentioned that to Ethnologue and their answer is: Yes. Leclerc had groups that just had Tamazight as their language, but it turned out to be dubious at best, erroneous at worst. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:30, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Since it has been decided to use Leclerc because his numbers are used by others, it stands to reason to only use the numbers that are referenced in other sources (which also do seem reasonable). M.Bitton (talk) 14:09, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kabyle language


text:
Denklingen (Reichshof)

Denklingen is one of 106 localities that make up the German municipality of Reichshof in the Oberbergischer Kreis. It is part of the region of Cologne in North Rhine-Westphalia. It is close to the towns of Gummersbach, Cologne, and Siegen. As of 31 December 2022, the population of Denklingen is 2.031. Denklingen is also Reichshof's administrative center.

History
Between the 16th and 18th century, a castle with a Evangelic chapel was built. The castle was renamed "Rentei" in 1672 when the administration of Windeck was moved to Denklingen Castle. The chapel became Catholic over the years and was purchased by the Catholic community in 1880. A proper Catholic church was built with the help of Paul Melchers from May 1885 to October 1886.

A rectory and a 33-meter-high church were built from 1889 to 1903 by the Evangelic community.

On 31 Oktober 1910, a railroad connecting the villages of Brüchermühle, Denklingen and Wildbergerhütte was opened. However, it never fulfilled the hopes of an economic upswing and was closed. It was completely dismantled in the early 1960s.

title: Denklingen (Reichshof)


text:
Buta, Democratic Republic of the Congo

Buta is a city in the northern Democratic Republic of the Congo, lying on the Rubi River, a tributary of the Itimbiri River. It is the capital of Bas-Uele province. As of 2012, it had an estimated population of 55,313.

It is home to the Buta Zega Airport.

Buta lies on the defunct narrow gauge Vicicongo line built by the Société des Chemins de Fer Vicinaux du Congo that ran east from Aketi on the Itimbiri River past Buta to Zobia, Isiro and Mungbere. The line ran from Kotili to Buta and onward to Andoma The line reached Buta on 1 July 1931. A branch line to Titulé via Andoma opened on 11 November 1932. Buta became an operational center for Vicicongo.

History
In early 2005, the town was the centre of an outbreak of pulmonary plague.

Education
Buta has many primary schools for students aged 6 to 14. After primary school is secondary school. Secondary school students are admitted into a 2 year orientation designed to deepen their understanding of what they learnt in primary school during their 7th and 8th year of school. This orientation period also allows students to choose more specific studies to focus their education. The school also offers a 4 year study period post-orientation before students go to university.

title: Buta, Democratic Republic of the Congo


text:
Zaiyuan

Zaiyuan (16 October 1816 – 8 November 1861), formally known as Prince Yi, was a Manchu prince of the Qing dynasty. He was one of the eight regents appointed by the Xianfeng Emperor to assist his successor, the Tongzhi Emperor.

Life
Zaiyuan was born in the Aisin Gioro clan as a descendant of Yinxiang (1686–1730), the 13th son of the Kangxi Emperor. He inherited his ancestors' peerage, "Prince Yi of the First Rank", in 1852 during the reign of the Daoguang Emperor (r. 1820–50).

Zaiyuan took up important positions during the reign of the Xianfeng Emperor (r. 1850–61), including a minister in the Imperial Clan Court and an imperial guard commander. In 1860, during the Second Opium War, Zaiyuan and Muyin (穆蔭) travelled to Tongzhou to replace Guiliang (桂良) in the peace negotiations with British and French officials. When the negotiations failed, the Mongol general Sengge Rinchen took members of the British delegation, including Harry Smith Parkes, Henry Loch, Thomas William Bowlby (a journalist for The Times), and their escorts hostage. The majority of the group – except the two diplomats – died from torture or disease; the survivors were released later. In the meantime, Anglo-French expeditionary forces closed in on Beijing. On 18 October, in retaliation for the capture and deaths of the peace delegation, British and French forces sacked and burnt the Old Summer Palace. Zaiyuan had already fled with the Xianfeng Emperor to the Chengde Mountain Resort in Hebei. Prince Gong, who was ordered to remain behind to make peace with the invaders, successfully concluded the Convention of Beijing with British, French and Russian officials.

Before the Xianfeng Emperor died in 1861, he appointed Zaiyuan, Sushun, Duanhua and five others as regents to assist his son, who succeeded him as the Tongzhi Emperor (r. 1861–75). Later that year, Prince Gong, with support from the Empress Dowagers Ci'an and Cixi, launched the Xinyou Coup and seized power from the eight regents. Zaiyuan was arrested, imprisoned, and given a piece of white silk cloth to commit suicide by hanging himself with the cloth. After Zaiyuan's death, the Prince Yi peerage was inherited by Zaidun (載敦), one of his distant relatives.

Family
Primary Consort

 * Primary Consort, of the Nara clan (嫡福晋那拉氏)
 * Princess of the Third Rank (郡主; b. 18 May 1838), first daughter
 * married Boyanamohu of the Khorchin Borjigitn clan in 1852
 * Second Daughter (19 July 1839 - 1840)
 * Third Daughter (b.25 May 1843)
 * married Darma of the Borjigin clan in 1863

Secondary Consort

 * Secondary Consort, of the Fanggiya clan (侧福晋方佳氏)
 * Fourth Daughter
 * married Xilingga of the Ulanghai clan in 1867
 * Fifth Daughter (b.20 May 1853)
 * Sixth Daughter (b.10 July 1854 )
 * married Nolasang Wangbu of the Ulanghai clan in 1874

title: Zaiyuan


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dingleberry Casanova

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was speedy deleted. Sjakkalle (Check!)  11:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dingleberry Casanova and Prauncey McClitterick
Supposedly a band. Lame profanity hoax. Rl 16:53, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Keep. Read the article's content, my friend!  Having a working knowledge of "Buttfuck syncopation" requires extensive training in both the techniques of ragtime piano AND ass-busting, hot-pumping anal sex.
 * vote by 172.209.151.130, whose only other edit added a trivia section linking to this article in Provo, Utah. Rl 18:20, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * delete No such band in several web searches, obviously a prank - also delete related page Prauncey McClitterick --Outlander 19:15, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete. Obvious prank. --Idont Havaname 19:17, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - utter nonsense. Djegan 19:49, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete prank/hoax. --Etacar11 00:43, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy deleted, prank vandalism. -- Infrogmation 05:27, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


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Yorkshire Day

Yorkshire Day is a yearly celebration on 1 August to promote the historic county of Yorkshire, England. It was celebrated by the Yorkshire Ridings Society in 1975, initially in Beverley, as "a protest movement against the local government re-organisation of 1974".

On 1 August the Slavery Abolition Act 1833 was passed, during the British Empire in 1834. William Wilberforce, a Yorkshire MP, had campaigned for the emancipation.

The day was already celebrated by the Light Infantry, successors to the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, as Minden Day, after the battle of Minden. Together with five other infantry regiments of the British Army, a rose is permitted to be worn in the headdress. In the case of the Light Infantry, the rose is white.

Yorkshire Society
The event was first celebrated officially in 1985, when council authorities agreed to host a joint civic celebration in York. Attended by lord mayors, mayors, and other civic heads, this has been repeated annually with the location moving each year. It is convened by the Yorkshire Society.

 * 1985: York
 * 1986: Ripon
 * 1987: Wakefield
 * 1988: Wakefield
 * 1989: Whitby
 * 1990: Skipton
 * 1991: Rotherham
 * 1992: Richmond
 * 1993: Leeds
 * 1994: Doncaster
 * 1995: Barnsley
 * 1996: Todmorden
 * 1997: Bradford
 * 1998: Huddersfield
 * 1999: Kingston upon Hull
 * 2000: York
 * 2001: Wakefield
 * 2003: Halifax
 * 2004: Leeds
 * 2005: Bradford
 * 2006: Penistone
 * 2007: Kingston upon Hull
 * 2008: Redcar
 * 2009: Malton
 * 2010: Hedon
 * 2011: Wakefield
 * 2012: Scarborough
 * 2013: Skipton
 * 2014: South Kirkby and Moorthorpe
 * 2015: Doncaster
 * 2016: Halifax
 * 2017: Sheffield
 * 2018: Ripon
 * 2019: Whitby
 * 2022: Keighley
 * 2023: Rotherham

Saltburn, Guisborough and Saddleworth have also played host. Due to COVID-19 restrictions, celebrations were cancelled in 2020 and in 2021 York held on-line events.

Similar events have been promoted by the Friends of Real Lancashire (27 November, since 1996) and the Huntingdonshire Society (25 April, since 2002) to promote their counties.

On Yorkshire Day, members of the society read a "Declaration of Integrity": "I, [Name], being a resident of the [West/North/East] Riding of Yorkshire [or City of York] declare:

That Yorkshire is three Ridings and the City of York, with these Boundaries of [Current Year minus 875, so for, NaN] years' standing; That the address of all places in these Ridings is Yorkshire; That all persons born therein or resident therein and loyal to the Ridings are Yorkshiremen and women; That any person or corporate body which deliberately ignores or denies the aforementioned shall forfeit all claim to Yorkshire status.

''These declarations made this Yorkshire Day [Year]. God Save the King!"'' In York the Declaration is made four times by the Yorkshire Ridings Society, once for each Riding and once for the City of York. The traditional boundaries of the Three Ridings run up to the ancient city walls, so by processing out of three of the bars (gatehouses) the Society can make the Declaration in each Riding, followed by reading the Declaration within a fourth bar inside the City.

Critical reaction
The day has attracted some criticism:

"Despite the serious underlying purpose and money-raising activities for charity, some Yorkshire people worry that it has become a media and marketing jamboree, perpetuating stereotypes of whippets, black puddings and flat caps. "We have to be careful not to overdo it, but regional distinctiveness adds colour. I'm against a grey uniformity spreading over everything, which is the way the world is going," says Arnold Kellett from the Yorkshire Dialect Society."

In its early years, the day was not widely acknowledged. A 1991 Times editorial read: "Today is Yorkshire Day. Not many people know that, as a very non-Yorkshire person likes to say, and probably not many Yorkshiremen either know or care. It is almost as artificial as Father's Day, which, as all thrifty northerners know, was created to sell more greetings cards"

title: Yorkshire Day


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Markism

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was - deleted - SimonP 15:43, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Markism

 * Delete vanity. Revolución 16:55, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedied, content was "Any quote, phrase, or expression first used by Mark Hennings (ca. 1988-????) that is regarded by people as in some way profound and/or worthy of the act of repetition". Thue | talk 17:13, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Markism


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Category:Apache Software Foundation projects

Please note that this listing is incomplete: another one is being maintained at projects.apache.org

nl:Categorie:Apache Software Foundation project


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Religion & Ethics Newsweekly

Religion & Ethics Newsweekly was an American weekly television news-magazine program which aired on PBS.

History and content
Premiering in 1997, Religion & Ethics Newsweekly was devoted to news of religion and spirituality, along with major ethical issues. The program explored the top moral questions facing the country and profiled notable people and groups in the world of religion and ethics. As of February, 2017, the series has been canceled.

Production and distribution
Religion & Ethics Newsweekly had been produced by Thirteen/WNET in New York City, New York, since its premiere, and was filmed on location worldwide. The main studio was in downtown Washington, D.C., in the same building as Reuters news agency.

The program was distributed to PBS stations nationwide.

Host
The program was hosted by journalist Bob Abernethy.

title: Religion & Ethics Newsweekly


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Jeepers Creepers

Jeepers Creepers may refer to:

 * "Jeepers creepers", a minced oath substitute for the phrase "Jesus Christ"
 * "Jeepers Creepers" (song), a popular 1938 song
 * Jeepers Creepers (1939 live-action film), a 1939 film starring Roy Rogers
 * Jeepers Creepers (1939 animated film), a 1939 animated short film featuring Porky Pig
 * Jeepers Creepers (film series), a film series originally created by Victor Salva
 * Jeepers Creepers (2001 film), a 2001 horror film written and directed by Victor Salva and the first film in the series

title: Jeepers Creepers