text:
Talk:Lacus Clyne

First heading
so whats the story on Lacus' supposed SEED ability? alright she can admittedly sing, but can she pilot an MS?

Yes she can. She piloted the Infinite Justice i think while delivering it to Athrun in one ep in GSD.

And can anyone has any idea what the last part of Water Evidence's lyrics were in G Seed dub (or if there were a cd for the eng. version of Mizu no Akashi)? All I could make out were:

The nighttime fills the sky, stars alive, go floating by So still the evening air so warm and soft, peace everywhere I see a world in harmony A world of peace and humanity Where people walk free like water in a stream Flowing on forever more

The breezes softly blow crisp and warm, so sweet I know Upon my cheek, I can feel tenderly a kiss so real Like the brush of a hand that I can not see The sound of a voice deep inside of my heart So I dream of a new day coming For all the world to see

Lift your eyes and see a new day dawning A dream that will soon come true, the day we waited for! Lift your heart and see the future for us all...

After that part, i couldn't make out the rest. I am not trying to get the lyrics or anything, just wondering what the last part was cause i couldn't make it out from the ep where she was broadcasting her ideals and speeches and Athrun's dad was blabbing about don't listen to Lacus and stuff. Lunar01:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Fangirl-ism in Lacus article
''Coincidently, both men have also kissed her before. (No other female character in the series has that honour.)''

This line in Trivia Section of the article about Lacus Clyne show cleary sign of some fangirl feelings towards the show and shoul be erased from the article.

Clyne Faction
Just justifying that recent edit. I'm going on information from Mark Simmons who says the Clyne Faction is no more once Patrick Zala takes out Siegel and his supporters. I agree Lacus initial rebel group is a form of Clyne Faction but it seems that term is one made up by confused Western fans, much like the infamous 'Turn A Bang'.--HellCat86 11:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Not suprising, but it seems I was wrong. In a recent discussion on this matter which Mark was involved in it turns out Terminal ISN'T Lacus' faction, rather just a very powerful freelance intelligence agency that supported her during Destiny. So the name for Lacus' group?....Clyne Faction after all.--HellCat86 08:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What proof do you have to support this theory? Terminal doesn't look like a "freelance" agency to me.

Morosawa
Shouldn't there at least be some mention of the popular perception that Lacus is an avatar for writer Chiaki Morosawa?
 * Where did you encounter that? I always believed that it's common knowledge that Lacus was modelled after Audrey Hepburn. Meer is an alter ego for Rie Tanaka, though. ^_^ --Khathi 22:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be mentioned that sometimes when Athrun is present and Lacus and Kira have a 'moment', Athrun has a close-up and when Lacus said that she was fond of Kira, Athrun looked taken back in the episode in Gundam SEED, "On A Calm Day"?

Ethnic Background?
Is Lacus really "Scandinavian", as her profile box says? I find that extremely hard to believe, considering that she had lived most of her life in the PLANTs, and the PLANTs are a nation of humans outside earth. Not only that, but I believe she is a 3rd generation coordinator, meaning that her father (siegel clyne) would also be of ambiguous ethnic background. Besides these reasonings, I distinctly do not recall any mention to her being scandinavian. Until further proof is given that she is from a nationality on earth, I think that part should be considered suspicious.
 * Lacus is one of the few GS characters who has an ethnic background that can be determined at the official site. (Most are guesses, typcally wild guesses.)
 * http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/background/timeline.html
 * "C.E. 22 Siegel Clyne, a Coordinator, is secretly born in the Kingdom of Scandinavia."
 * Siegel is Lacus' father. Edward321 05:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you can directly quote what part of the timeline says that, because the timeline is HUGE, spanning from C.E.1 to C.E.73 or so.
 * I did directly quote - "C.E. 22 Siegel Clyne, a Coordinator, is secretly born in the Kingdom of Scandinavia." Edward321 01:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

"Angry Lacus"...?!
Dude, that was an edited photo... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.69.228.147 (talk) 10:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

Infobox Image Caption
The caption says Lacus Clyne in Gundam SEED OVA but the image file is Lacus_Clyne_Destiny.jpg, which is it? --Remy Suen 15:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

It is from the 5 minute OVA which I believe is called After the Stars. It is after Gundam SEED but before Destiny. Murrueramius 16:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Trivia?
''In SEED Destiny, Lacus is portrayed as somewhat more militant and organized, though this has not affected her angelic personality at all. Also, here, she is slightly more reluctant to let Kira fight (seen in the events where both Freedom units make their debut in Destiny). However, strangely, she is not like this towards Athrun when she delivers the Infinite Justice to him. As another note, the scene after Durandal's Destiny Plan speech is where we see Lacus in a truly angry face, a somewhat departure from her other angry faces which still retain her sweet side''

How is this trivia? Melphis 06:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Better pictures of Lacus
We all know that the reason she's so popular is because of her awesome clothing line. We should have pics of all of her clothes in the article and state where and when she dons each one they way most other articles are done.

Lacus's Ring?
In the artical biography of Lacus Clyne it says that she gives Kira a ring after confessing her love for him.

Lacus finally admits to Kira her love for him when she gives him the ring that belonged to her mother before the final battle at Jachin Due and tells him to come back to her safely.

However it isn't mentioned anywhere in the Anime that the ring belonged to her mother. Is there some sort of information that i'm missing or dose that text need to be modified? (3/7/2007) --124.179.58.223 08:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)LPN

Either someone made that up or it showed up in newtype/some other source of trivia...

Rank after Final Plus?
Her info box says "Chairwoman of the PLANT Supreme Council (GSDSE)." I'm just wondering, is this actually verifiable canon or is it just an assumption? 69.182.169.58 (talk) 00:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have reverted it back to "Member of the PLANT Supreme Council (GSDSE)", since I'm also not entirely sure if she was refered to as "Chairwoman". --Silver Edge (talk) 16:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Symbolic value
i've only seen trivia and general descriptions but has anyone thought of her symbolic importance in the story? her name meaning lake, is associated with water which is repeated throughtout the story in all the little things many ppl seem to fail to notice...

here's the list of things to do with water which is a little long to be coincidental...
 * 1)Lacus Clyne (lake as in a body of water?) She also gives the Freedom to Kira just as the Lady of the Lake gave King Arthur his sword excalibur...
 * 2)Meer Campbell (dutch for lake, body of water)
 * 3)Lunamaria Hawke (possibly derived from Lunar Mare(plural: Lunar Maria) which is a "sea" on the moon;its actually some craters the astronomers of the "i dont know what" century thought were seas but that's not the point)
 * 4)"Mizu no Akashi" (Water's Evidence)
 * 5)Emotion's english dub contains the line "In the water's evidecence" (again, water...not tryign to hammer this)
 * 6)Blue Cosmos and the motto "pure blue world"(Blue is associated with water in that most of the time when someone (esp. a little kid) draws water, lakes, sea, ocean, they will color it blue)
 * 7)Stella's love for the ocean and fish (ocean=body of water) and Stella's song "Shinkai no Kodoku" (Loneliness of the Deepsea, emphasis on SEA.)

im just saying, Lacus has a lot to do with something that's repeating throughout the story...Its almost as if water is some symbol of peace that everyone loves or seeks...(lacus's popularity in the PLANTs, Meer's popularity while impersonating Lacus, Mizu no Akaashi's popularity as it was aired over the big TV screen thing in some public place in the PLANTs and in seed over, the radio if my memory doesnt fail me symbolizes the love people have for peace, while Stella, who's constantly forced into a situation where she must fight and be endangered looks to the sea as if for peace, away from the fighting, in her song, She again mentions the sea. Another noticeable point, though slightly irrelevant is that LunarMaria and Stella both have to do with "sea" rather than "lake". They both fight more than once while neither Meer nor Lacus really fights i na mobile suit, tho Lacus had piloted a mobile suit (but hey, the Lady of the Lake didnt give Excalibur to King Arthur without touching it). this thought is, btw incomplete, feel free to add to it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.68.211.224 (talk) 02:52, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

 * That may all be true or just coincidental but it's still original research and removed upon sight. If you have sources from third-parties, magazines, interviews with Staff and etc... that specifically bring up this symbolism then you can include the information. Since there are none, it's all just personal interpretations and shouldn't be included into the article. See WP:OR if you have questions. Fox816 (talk) 03:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

 * In my opinion, someon should ask the makers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.80.33.198 (talk) 01:46, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Gunpoint?
"Later, when Flay's father's escort is attacked by ZAFT forces, Flay drags Lacus to the bridge at gunpoint and says that she will kill Lacus if ZAFT does not cease their attack at once."

Begging your pardon, but as long as i have had the 50 episodes of gundam seed i have never seen in that one episode flay holding Lacus at gunpoint. Also it does not mention this in Flay's article. I would like to see that removed as that conflicts with information on both articles.

Lacus was not held at gunpoint by flay, therefore gunpoint should not even be used. Please change.

AnthonyWalters (talk) 00:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on Lacus Clyne. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100523151929/http://animage.jp/old/gp/gp_2003.html to http://animage.jp/old/gp/gp_2003.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110716175939/http://animage.jp/old/gp/gp_2004.html to http://animage.jp/old/gp/gp_2004.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090627174422/http://animage.jp/old/gp/gp_2005.html to http://animage.jp/old/gp/gp_2005.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101019171753/http://animage.jp/gp_new/index.html to http://animage.jp/gp_new/index.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.gundam.info/content/220
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.gundam.info/content/172
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121018053655/http://www.mania.com/mobile-suit-gundam-seed-vol-02_article_77643.html to http://www.mania.com/mobile-suit-gundam-seed-vol-02_article_77643.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 10:01, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Lacus Clyne. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101211190223/http://www.mania.com/mobile-suit-gundam-seed-vol-09_article_78169.html to http://www.mania.com/mobile-suit-gundam-seed-vol-09_article_78169.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110415182708/http://www.mania.com/mobile-suit-gundam-seed-vol-09_article_76795.html to http://www.mania.com/mobile-suit-gundam-seed-vol-09_article_76795.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 12:45, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lacus Clyne


text:
Nightwatching

Nightwatching is a 2007 film about the artist Rembrandt and the creation of his 1642 painting The Night Watch. The film is directed by Peter Greenaway and stars Martin Freeman as Rembrandt, with Eva Birthistle as his wife Saskia van Uylenburg, Jodhi May as his lover Geertje Dircx, and Emily Holmes as his other lover Hendrickje Stoffels. Reinier van Brummelen is the director of photography. James Willcock, known for his esoteric sets, is the art director.

The film is described by co-producer Jean Labadie as "a return to the Greenaway of The Draughtsman's Contract." It features Greenaway's trademark neoclassical compositions and graphic sexuality. The music is by Włodek Pawlik. The film premiered in competition, at the Venice Film Festival.

Nightwatching is the first feature in Greenaway's film series "Dutch Masters". The following film in the series is Goltzius and the Pelican Company.

An associated work by the same director is the documentary film Rembrandt's J'Accuse (2008), in which Greenaway addresses 34 "mysteries" associated with the painting, illustrated by scenes from the drama.

Plot
The film is centred on the creation of The Night Watch, Rembrandt's most famous work, depicting civilian militiamen who wanted to be celebrated in a group portrait. The film posits a conspiracy to murder within the musketeer regiment of Frans Banninck Cocq and Willem van Ruytenburch, and suggests that Rembrandt may have immortalized a conspiracy theory using subtle allegory in his group portrait of the regiment, subverting what was to have been a highly prestigious commission for both painter and subject.

The film also depicts Rembrandt's personal life, and suggests he suffered serious consequences in later life as a result of the accusation contained in his most famous painting.

Cast

 * Martin Freeman as Rembrandt
 * Eva Birthistle as Saskia van Uylenburg
 * Jodhi May as Geertje Dircx
 * Emily Holmes as Hendrickje Stoffels
 * Toby Jones as Gerard Dou
 * Michael Teigen as Carel Fabritius
 * Agata Buzek as Titia Uylenburgh
 * Natalie Press as Marieke
 * Fiona O'Shaughnessy as Marita
 * Adrian Lukis as Frans Banninck Cocq
 * Michael Culkin as Herman Wormskerck
 * Christopher Britton as Rombout Kemp
 * Reimer van Beek as Titus (newborn)
 * Maciej Zakościelny as Egremont

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Nightwatching


text:
Talk:Nikolay Chernyshevsky

title
Has "what is to be done" been written by Nikolai Chernyshevsky or by Lenin, or by both, or there are two different books with the same title in the same historical period, in the same nation and from similar political point of view?

 * Chernyshevsky was the first to use the title. Lenin was inspired by Chernyshevsky's novel in his youth and later re-used the title himself.  I wouldn't call it the same historical period.  Cherneshevsky is associated with the nihilism of the 1860s while Lenin is associated with the Russian Revolution almost 60 years later.  thoreaubred 01:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I would not regard Chernyshevsky as a nihilist - this is a name Turgenev coined for Pisarev and his followers - but instead as a Narodnik or Populist, because of his arguments about how a socialist society might be constructed on the basis of the obschina. NickJBEvans 01:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Is the title a Biblical reference - to Luke 3:10-14? Shto delat'? ("What is to be done") is also translated as "What Shall We Do?"

 * Luke: 10 And the crowds asked him, “What then shall we do?” 11 And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics[a] is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.” 12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” 13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.” 14 Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”

At least according to the article What Is to Be Done? (Tolstoy) this is an intentional reference. Were all three making a biblical reference. I don't know Lenin's personal views on religion, but there does seem to be a notion on sharing wealth in the reference. Ileanadu (talk) 03:03, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Arrest
what was he arrested and imprisoned for? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.20.104 (talk) 21:56, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

 * Probably for advocating for revolution, but you are right, the article should specify. Ileanadu (talk) 03:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:Nikolay Chernyshevsky


text:
Talk:Runnymede Trust

Left-wing?
I removed "left-wing" from the definition of the RT from the starting paragraph. What evidence is there that RT is a left-wing think tank? A quick google test for RT and left-wing turns up only 100 or so hits whilst a search for RT and right-wing, for example, turns up 200 hits. Some citation in this area might be needed. Axon 11:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The Runnymede Trust advocates views, like multiculturism and the rewriting of history and which are generally considered to be politically correct, leftist ideals. --Germen 12:29, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Are they? I'm not convinced that is true in all cases. I think some conservatives would be highly distressed to hear that people thought they were in favor of uni-culturalism or racism. Please provide citation to back your thesis that the RT is left-wing as I asked above. Please also note the google test above. Axon (talk|contribs) 12:44, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Multiculturalism like communism/socialism, is a left-wing, utopian project. --87.78.51.144 (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Nazis and the Ku-Klux-Klan who oppose multiculturalism were are rather right wing, aren't they? So people who support multiculturalism are rather left-wing. Logical, isn't it? --82.101.232.100 (talk) 17:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Monoculturalism cannot be classified as racism, because a culture is not a race. Multiculturalism implies that in a given cultural domain separate sets of rules, e.g. secular law and shari'ah law, exist and have equal validity. Monoculturalism does not reject other cultures, but does acknowledge that in a given territory there must be an unambiguous set of rules which has precedence, like policy here. See also Afshin Ellian, an Iranian refugee and law scientist who has elaborated this thesis. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 14:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I disagree, monoculuralism can surely be racist, but your point is irrelevant: the Runnymede Trust is opposed to racism and that was what I was alluding to above. Once again, however, you have side-stepped my request you provide proper citation. I ask again, whate evidence do you have of the above? Axon (talk|contribs) 15:29, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Monoculturalism can occur together with racism (as in Nazi Germany), but is not equal to racism. A communist or shariah state, e.g. is monocultural but not racist (however, I would not recommend to live there). A multicultural society can be racist, like South Africa during the Apartheid years. The Runnymede Trust advocates cultural equality and a multicultural society. This equals to the post-modernist moral equivalence, a leftist spearpoint. On their website there are several links to known leftist-activist organisations, like the Social Platform of Europe while links to conservative organisations are missing. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 11:40, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Sigh I'm not going to get into another long and pointless discussion with you. If you want to argue the above I suggest you go to some other on-line forum and argue to your hearts content there. Do you have any evidence the RT is left-wing? Axon (talk|contribs) 07:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Note that Axon has insufficient arguments as evidenced by his refusal to supply them. I have already given the evidence why the RT is (a) left-wing and (b) a lobby group rather than a think tank. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 08:29, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The burden of proof is on you here, not I. You have not demonstrated any of the above with actually evidence. Axon (talk|contribs) 08:32, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I am afraid you are mistaken Axon. I have provided proof that the Runnymede Trust qualifies as a lobby group. You state that the Runnymede Trust is a think tank, without even making an attempt to prove that. I would like to remind you that information about the value of an organisation from an organisation itself is not reliable. Only stated politics etcetera of the organisation are a valid reference form. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 16:23, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Lester himself describes the Runnymeade Trust as 'left-wing', I added the cite. In reference to the first entry, 'google hits' are irrelevant to Wikipedia, cites are what counts. Twobells (talk) 15:24, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Error: no proof of government funding found
The Runnymede Trust receives money from several major charities. No confirmation of government grants to the Runnymede Trust found. Corrected. --Germen (Talk | Contribs ) 20:24, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

POV tag
Added POV tag because of the portraying of a leftist organisation as independant and neutral. --Germen 12:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Totally disputed? Seems a bit strong for what is, essentially, just a stub. As for portraying RT as neutral, I don't see anything in the page that makes that claim. It merely describes the RT and what they advocate. As for independence, I see no reason to question that they aren't independent unless you have some citation or evidence to the contrary. Again, see my call for evidence above. Axon (talk|contribs) 13:02, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Axon, justice as served. Check the Wikipedia articles on lobby group, think tank and decide yourself in which category the Runnymede Trust fits best. You are intelligent enough, so this should not be a major problem. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 14:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Which justice are you referring to? Once again, you have not actually provided any evidence for your changes. The Runnymede Trust describes it self as a think tank. If you have any evidence it acually lobbies please provide it, otherwise I will remove the reference to lobby groups. I think you certainly misunderstand the English definition of a think tank and how they operate. Axon (talk|contribs) 15:31, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The Runnymede Trust tries to influence the lawmaking process and politics, see the stub. This is exactly the definition of a lobby group: a group which seeks to influence politics. As I said, it doesn't matter how people or groups call themselves (Saddam called himself a nationalistic socialist, as did Herr Adolf) and the former East Bloc dictatorships referred to themselves as democratic people's republics, it matters what they are in real. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 11:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Does it? I think there is both more and less to a lobby group than that. RT is a think tank and, unless you can supply actual evidence it isn't (and a Wikipedia article is itself not evidence of this) there is nothing more to say on the matter. Axon (talk|contribs) 07:53, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * See the discussion at "think tank". I am not going to repeat the definition of think tank again. If you don't have the elementary courtesy to consider my sources I think you obstruct any discussion effectively.--Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 08:32, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * You do not seem to have actually read the article: there is more than one definition of a think tank. Until you provide actual direct evidence of your reverts (i.e. an article or somesuch demonstrating the RT is a lobby group or left-wing) there is nothing to discuss: WP:NOR applies here as much as anywher else. Axon (talk|contribs) 08:34, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * You seem to confuse proof with statement. You have no proof that the RT is a think tank, apart from its own designation as such. I followed the encyclopedic method: check sources, check definitions and classify. It is not encyclopedic to believe on face value. If I say that I am the king of Britain, do you believe me? RT lies about their independence, as I proved with links, do you think they don't lie about being a think tank rather than a cunningly operating lobby group? Besides, I did not revert, I added my own information. Reverting is your style. I am not lazy, I try to incorporate information from others in order to improve quality of the article. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 08:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Factual inaccurate
The Runnymede Trust is portrayed as a think tank. Think tanks do not evangelize of advocate views. This is the work of action committees. --Germen 12:31, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Again, on what evidence do you base the above? In my mind think tanks do indeed advocate views: in this sense, they advise politicians on policy. They also self-describe themselves as a think tank. Axon (talk|contribs) 12:46, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * How people or institutions describe themselves is irrelevant. I would like to quote the example of Kim Jong Il. A think tank has the primary task to think and subsequently publish their views. The Runnymede Trust has the stated objective to influence laws (as written in this stub) and as such do qualify like a lobby group rather than a think tank. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 14:28, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Is it: the most useful source of information about an organisation is the organisation itself. Again, if you dispute the description please provide relevant sources? Also, political think tanks influence law all the time in that they advise politicians who make laws. Axon (talk|contribs) 15:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Axon sahib, using the Runnymade Trust official publications is exactly what I do. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 12:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

To summarise and resolve the conflict:

 * Indepedant != neutral. Independant as it is used here does not imply neutral, but in the snse here means financially independant. In this case, the RT is a charity with no ties to any larger organisations. Obviously, the RT has biases in favor of multi-culturalism which are made clear in the defintion.
 * I have found evidence of substantial funding by the (left) Labour UK government. Link added. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 12:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * So? As has been stated before, it is a think tank and as such would advise the Labour government on policy. Really, Germen, you should familiarise yourself with the difference between a contemporary think tank and a mere lobby group. Axon (talk|contribs) 07:58, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * This a proof that the RT is not independent, so their claim to be independant is an outright lie. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 13:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Political think tanks are an American invention that are becomming quite popular in the UK and probably Europe. They carry out political research into new policies and as such are considered, in English speaking countries, to have biases (in this case, pro-multiculturalism and anti-racist) and its use here is not meant to imply the scientific definition of think tank. Perhaps we should ammend the descriptive to "political think tank". Axon (talk|contribs) 16:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed that a think tank can have a certain political bias, I did not dispute this. However, the stated Runnymede goals of influencing lawmaking and political decision processes are the core activities of lobby groups, hence the Runnymede Trust fits the definition of lobby group.--Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 12:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, that would precisely fit the definition of a think tank. A lobby group is substantially different. Please familiarise yourself with the differences. Axon (talk|contribs) 07:58, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Nowhere in the definition of think tank the objective of influencing legislation is stated so I do not see how this is corroborating with the definition. Please familiarize yourself with the differences between a lobby group and a think tank. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 13:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Runnymede claims to be a "trust," a "think-tank," a "registered limited liability company," a "registered charity," and "a bridge-builder between various minority ethnic communities and policy makers" (i.e. some sort of lobbying consultancy, specializing in the concerns of ethnic and religious minorities). Obviously, one or some Islamic organizations or communities have donated a large sum of money to the Runnymede charity. In return, Runnymede is trying to lobby British policy makers on behalf of these Muslims. As part of this transaction, Runnymede has issued their ridiculous defintion of "Islamaphobia." I think it's obvious that a professional lobbying front for British Muslims is a far cry from NPOV. The activities of this organization can clearly be described as POV-driven - in this case, they represent the political interests of Muslims and their political allies on the left. Runnymede is MUCH more than a "think-tank" (how many "think-tanks" accept charitable, tax-detuctable dontions?). The purpose of this "think-tank" is clearly not limited to defining and studying Islamaphobia or Islam. Runnymede claims, for example, that there is nothing sexist about Islam. What academic qualifications in religon and sociology does the Runnymede "think-tank" have to make such an assertion in an objective way?  --Zeno of Elea 23:04, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Zeno, these are harsh accusations, and I have no idea it they are true. Certainly you do not expect people to take your word for it? Like everywhere else on WP, it is possible to forward any sort of criticism, only that nobody is interested in criticism by Wikipedia editors. Your job as an editor is to find notable publications making such statements, and refer to them in the article text. "The Runnymede Trust is an independent charitable organisation." (I suppose, officially recognized). I also think it is safe to say that it is isn't extremely right-wing or fascist. Beyond that, i.e. is it rather left-center, conservative-center, or left-wing, you will have to cite people's judgement. So much trouble could be avoided on WP if people would just stick to this simple maxim. So we can cite the RT as saying "there is nothing sexist about Islam"? Ok. Now who do we cite as saying that the RT does not have the academic qualifications to make such a statement? I'm sure there are notable conservative pundits happy to make that statement. Unfortunately "Zeno of Elea" isn't quite what we're looking for. Just try to quote somebody, ok? dab (ᛏ) 17:28, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Once again, dab, I am in agreement with you. Much of the above is just talk page opinions. The article as it stands seems no better to the original version here and I would recommend reverting to the older version until such time as proper citation on the RT can be found. For example, why must we use "describes itself as" in the introduction! Axon (talk|contribs) 11:52, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Axon, the original article is repeating the claims of the Runnymede Trust about itself without critical judgment of the claims. To call the Runnymede Trust independant and an think tank, among others, infers an opinion. Many organisations like to call themselves think tank, because it gives them status. If you think the RT is independent or a think tank, cite your sources. I did. --Germen (Talk | Contribs Netherlands flag small.svg) 18:26, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I would refer you to dab and my comments about notability of a position and WP:NOR. What applies of Islamophobia applies here. You have not provided direct evidence that we should doubt the RT claims. We are not about accomadating all opininions, but only all siginifcant opinions (see WP:NPOV) which does not include talk page opinion. Axon (talk|contribs) 09:40, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Removal of the POV tag
Children have been concieved, gestated and born since this discussion died. Without a discussion, there is no dispute. Hence, I will remove the pov tag. Veej 00:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

need further information about a reference.
Runnymede Trust's report is widely acknowledged by the media to have been Islamophobic - what does this reference actually say on pg 185? --Fredrick day (talk) 19:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on Runnymede Trust. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130927111606/http://www.we-asc.org/lester to http://www.we-asc.org/lester
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100228001727/http://www.runnymedetrust.org:80/projects-and-publications/projects.html to http://www.runnymedetrust.org/projects-and-publications/projects.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100425002808/http://www.runnymedetrust.org:80/projects-and-publications/projects/europe/uk-race-amp-europe-network/about-ukren.html to http://www.runnymedetrust.org/projects-and-publications/projects/europe/uk-race-amp-europe-network/about-ukren.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 06:34, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Runnymede Trust. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20050308033041/http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk:80/registeredcharities/showcharity.asp?regno=1063609 to http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/showcharity.asp?regno=1063609

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 18:24, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Final paragraph is not NPV
The final paragraph needs correcting, it is left hanging and giving the wrong impression; the Charity Commission ruled that the trust was not in breach of guidelines.
 * "The Runnymede Trust has emerged victorious following a battle with a group of Tory MPs who demanded an official probe into its “woke” race equality work citing political bias."
 * https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/runnymede-charity-racism-sewell-report-b1912441.html

94.72.203.147 (talk) 19:14, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Runnymede Trust


text:
William Grant, Lord Grant

William Grant, Lord Grant, (19 June 1909 – 19 November 1972) was a Scottish advocate, a Unionist politician, and a judge. Born to the Grant's distillery family who created Glenfiddich whisky, he was one of Scotland's Great Officers of State for the last 12 years of his life.

A classical scholar and talented orator who nonetheless lost his first two election campaigns, Grant sat in the House of Commons from 1955 to 1962. Throughout that period he was a Law Officer: first Solicitor General for Scotland, then Lord Advocate.

He left Parliament in 1962 to become Lord Justice Clerk, the second most senior judge in Scotland. His work included chairing the eponymous Grant Committee, a major inquiry into the working of Scotland's sheriff courts.

While still in office, Grant died in a traffic collision in the Scottish Highlands, with alcohol in his blood. The crash left two other men dead and a young family seriously injured.

Early life and family
Grant was born on 19 June 1909 in Dufftown, Banff, the son of Edward Grant. His mother was a former Miss Kennedy, who Edward had married in 1908. His grandfather William Grant (1839–1923) was the founder of the distillers William Grant & Sons, producers of Glenfiddich whisky.

Edward had been a solicitor for the Caledonian Railway in Glasgow, before returning to Dufftown to work for the family's Balvenie distillery. He died in September 1911, aged 34, when William was two years old.

Janet Roberts, a granddaughter of the distillery founder and therefore presumably Grant's first cousin, was Scotland's oldest person when she died in 2012 aged 110.

Education and Second World War
Schooled at Fettes College in Edinburgh, Grant won a scholarship in classics to Oriel College, Oxford, where he graduated with a first-class degree. He then studied law at the University of Edinburgh, graduating with an LLB with distinction.

He was admitted as an advocate on 2 November 1934. As an officer of the Territorial Army, he was mobilised at the outset of World War II, and served in the Royal Artillery, reaching the rank of major. In 1943 or 1944 he became Deputy Assistant Adjutant General at the War Office.

Career
Returning to the bar after demobilisation in 1945, Grant rebuilt his legal practice, focusing on trusts, wills, inheritance and company law. In 1949 he became standing junior counsel to the Ministry of Pensions in Scotland. With a reputation for fast work and effective presentation, he took silk in 1951.

He lectured in law at the University of Edinburgh and from 1950 to 1954 he chaired the National Health Service Tribunal for Scotland. In the same period, he was also a senior advocate depute.

Politics and law officer
In the early 1950s, Grant was twice an unsuccessful parliamentary candidate for the Labour-held constituency of Edinburgh East. At the 1951 general election, aided by the lack of a Liberal Party candidate, he reduced the majority of the sitting Member of Parliament (MP) and current Lord Advocate, John Wheatley, by nearly half. However at the by-election in April 1954 after Wheatley became a judge, Labour increased its majority to over 5,000, reversing a swing to the government in the previous six by-elections that year.

Still without a parliamentary seat, Grant was appointed in January 1955 as Solicitor General for Scotland. He succeeded William Rankine Milligan who had been promoted to Lord Advocate to replace James Latham Clyde, who had been raised to the bench as a Senator of the College of Justice in the place of Lord Cooper.

He took office as Milligan's deputy in the last months of Winston Churchill's premiership. Grant was later selected as the Unionists' prospective parliamentary candidate for the Unionist-held seat of Glasgow Woodside. At the general election in May 1955, Grant's oratory drew over a thousand people to his eve-of-poll rally on 25 May in Hillhead, with hundreds more turned away. Two girls fainted in the excitement, which the Glasgow Herald newspaper suggested set "a minor record for 1955 political meetings". He held the seat for the Unionists, with an increased majority, assisted by favourable boundary changes.

Grant and Milligan were retained in office both in the 1955–57 government of Churchill's successor, Anthony Eden, and in the post-1957 government of Harold Macmillan. Grant became a privy counsellor in the Queens's 1958 Birthday Honours.

At the general election in October 1959, Grant was re-elected in Glasgow Woodside. When Milligan was appointed as a judge in 1960, Grant was promoted to fill the vacancy as Lord Advocate.

Lord Advocate
His successor as Solicitor General, David Anderson, was not an MP. This left Grant as the government's only spokesperson in the Commons on Scottish legal matters.

As Lord Advocate, Grant held ultimate authority to decide whether any prosecution should proceed. One of the cases which he declined to bring was a charge of obscenity against the publishers of Lady Chatterley's Lover, following the unsuccessful prosecution in England. In November 1960, Grant announced in the Commons that the book was "tedious" and that he would not prosecute. The Labour MP Emrys Hughes congratulated Grant for his "extreme common sense", and a subsequent High Court challenge to his decision failed.

However, Grant was no liberal. In Winnipeg in 1961, he opposed recent British moves to restrict capital punishment, describing them as mistaken and a threat to public safety.

In 1962, Grant led the defence in the Scottish courts of a claim for about £60 million (£ in 2024) in damages by the Glasgow-based Burmah Oil Company against the government of the United Kingdom. During the Japanese conquest of Burma in 1941 and 1942, the company's assets in Rangoon had been destroyed under a "scorched earth" policy by retreating British forces. Having been advised in the late 1940s to sue the government of Burma, the company's company's 12 years of litigation had failed to establish liability against Burma. The trial judge, Lord Kilbrandon, ruled in favour of the oil company. His judgment was overturned by the First Division of the Inner House of the Court of Session, which was in turn overruled by the law lords in Burmah Oil Co Ltd v Lord Advocate. Burmah Oil's legal victory was retrospectively nullified by the War Damage Act 1965.

Lord Justice Clerk
After the death in April 1962 of the Lord Justice Clerk, George Thomson, it was expected that the government would follow the usual practice of appointing the Lord Advocate to the judicial vacancy. The decision was in fact usually made by the Lord Advocate, who traditionally appointed himself, with a substantial rise in salary. (In 1967, then Lord Advocate Gordon Stott was elevated to the judiciary, and later joked "I appointed myself, and a jolly good judge I turned out to be").

However, after the office had been vacant for more than three months, the Labour MP James Hoy raised the issue at Prime Minister's Questions on 31 July, suggesting that the delay was due to government fears of losing a by-election. (At the 1959 election, Grant had a majority of only 2,084 in his Woodside constituency, down from 4,303 in 1955. Woodside was by then considered a marginal seat. ).

Prime Minister Harold Macmillan declined a challenge from opposition leader Hugh Gaitskell to explain the reasons for the delay, but promised that a new Justice Clerk would be in place before the Scottish courts resumed on 2 October. On 25 September, a week before the courts opened, Grant was raised to the bench with the judicial title Lord Grant. The Glasgow Woodside by-election was held on 22 November. As expected, it was won by the Labour candidate Neil Carmichael.

As a judge, Grant gravitated towards criminal cases. He also undertook a lot of the court's administrative duties.

Grant Committee
In 1963, the Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Noble appointed Grant as chairman of a committee of inquiry into Scotland's sheriff courts. The committee included David Brand QC, several solicitors, and others.

The Committee on the Sheriff Court, known as the Grant Committee, reported in July 1967, recommending a major reorganisation of the courts to end the long delays in criminal cases. Its recommendations included an increase in the number of full-time sheriffs, the abolition of juries in civil cases in the sheriff courts, increasing the maximum sentence imposed by sheriffs from two years to three, and broadening the recruitment base for sheriffs to include solicitors and academic lawyers.

The report led to the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1971.

Other interests
Grant was the first chairman of the Edinburgh Festival Fringe Society as well as a director of Scottish Opera.

Personal life
In 1934, Grant became engaged to Margaret Katharine Milne, a native of Aberdeen. They married in 1936, and lived in Moray Place in the New Town of Edinburgh.

The couple had two sons and a daughter, and a reputation for generous hospitality.

Death
Lord Grant died on 19 November 1972 as a result of a road accident near Lynchat, about 3 miles north of Kingussie in Inverness-shire. He was 63 years old.

Driving home alone from Brora in Sutherland, his BMW had overtaken a car transporter on a double bend, and collided with a car traveling in the opposite direction, carrying a young family home to Alness. The crash killed the driver of the other car, and seriously injured his wife and their three children, aged between three and seven years. All four survivors were taken to hospital in Inverness. A male passenger in their car was killed along with the driver.

The fatal accident inquiry in May 1973 heard that blood tests showed Lord Grant to have consumed the equivalent of two pints of beer or two large whiskies. No alcohol was found in the blood of the other driver.

The injured widow testified that her husband had been driving at under 25 mph. The Inverness Constabulary estimated the impact speed to have been between 100 mph and 140 mph.

title: William Grant, Lord Grant


text:
Talk:Hadith of the Event of the Cloak

Feel free to change the layout, but please dont delete any material :)

--Striver 11:35, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

 * This is ridiculous. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for arguments and counter-arguments and countercounterarguments, thinly veiled by being written in the third-person.  What this article should contain is a summary of the event, of the principal sources supporting it, and of its importance in Shia theology, not a debate. - Mustafaa 13:48, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, ill try to edit to you satisfaction

Peace!

--Striver 13:51, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Ill add this later:

Wilfred Madelung makes the following observation on the verse of purification: "Who are the 'people of the house' here? The pronoun referring to them is in the masculine plural, while the preceding part of the verse is in the feminine plural. This change of gender has evidently contributed to the birth of various accounts of a legendary character, attaching the latter part of the verse to the five People of the Mantle (ahl al-kisā'): Muhammad, 'Ali, Fātima, Hasan and Husayn. In spite of the obvious Shí'ite significance, the great majority of the reports quoted by al-Tabari in his commentary on this verse support this interpretation." Madelung, The Succession to Muhammad, p. 14-15. --Striver 06:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Why would you present this as a page considering "both sides" if your view and coverage of the Sunni perspective is so tainted. Don't argue this point, just read some of your writings, and you'll understand. I feel sorry for you for misrepresenting 90+% of this Ummah.
 * Bro,i do my best, and i hope to be swiftly corrected where i happen to unintentionaly missrepresent the Sunnis. Not representing them at all is worse than having them temporarily missrepresented in the begining.--Striver 20:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

According to Sunni Hadeeth collections
"According to the Sunni Hadith Collections, it is narrated that an Arab Christian envoy from Jizan (currently in North of Yemen and partly in Saudi Arabia) came to the Prophet to argue to which is the true religion. The prophet offered to them to do the Arabic Tradition known to those Arab Christians as Mubahala, that is that each conflicting party should cover themselves with a cover and together all parties ask God sincerely to destroy and inflict with curses and diseases on the liar party and even their families. The Prophet, as proof of his prophethood, brought Ali, his daughter Fatima and his grand children Hassan ibn Ali and Husayn ibn Ali, and came back to the Christians, saying this is my family (Ahl). He then covered himself and family with a cloak, and started the tradition of Mubahala."

Which collections, which hadeeth numbers. How can we tell if this is just quoting some da'if or munqir ahadeeth? The only hadeeth brought from Sunni collections so far was the Sahih in regards to covering them up, but this says (a) collections and (b) it expands on what the Sahih hadeeth says.

--xx-Mohammad Mufti-xx 19:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

 * if you refer to the tafseer of at-tabaree you will see that he quotes a number of reports where one of the wives asks if she is a part of it and the reply is no, but if you read further some other reports are also mentioned where the answer is yes. but then again we would require reliable sources plus the relevant tasheeh made of the specific narrations for it to be a suitable inclusion  ITAQALLAH   21:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

sunni POV
one may wish to add this narration also from al-bukhaari which can be used in the sunni view section here and on the ahl al-bayt article which states the following:

006.060.316 Narrated Anas:

A banquet of bread and meat was held on the occasion of the marriage of the Prophet to Zainab bint Jahsh. I was sent to invite the people (to the banquet), and so the people started coming (in groups); They would eat and then leave. Another batch would come, eat and leave. So I kept on inviting the people till I found nobody to invite. Then I said, "O Allah's Prophet! I do not find anybody to invite." He said, "Carry away the remaining food." Then a batch of three persons stayed in the house chatting. '''The Prophet left and went towards the dwelling place of Aisha and said, "Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you, O the people of the house!" She replied, "Peace and the mercy of Allah be on you too. How did you find your wife? May Allah bless you." Then he went to the dwelling places of all his other wives and said to them the same as he said to Aisha and they said to him the same as Aisha had said to him'''. Then the Prophet returned and found a group of three persons still in the house chatting. The Prophet was a very shy person, so he went out (for the second time) and went towards the dwelling place of 'Aisha. I do not remember whether I informed him that the people have gone away. So he returned and as soon as he entered the gate, he drew the curtain between me and him, and then the Verse of Al-Hijab was revealed.

-  ITAQALLAH   21:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I already added that hadith but I had only mentioned Al'Nisai. But now that it's been brought to light, I've also added reference to the Sahih Bukhari narration (which I didn't know about before so JazakAllah)--xx-Mohammad Mufti-xx 21:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

also a problem in this and many other shi'te-sunni/POV fork articles is that there are too many "counter-arguments" and counters of counters etc, in that one opinion will be given and then the opposing opinion will be expressed as a counter which clearly tilts the balance.  ITAQALLAH  22:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hadith of the Event of the Cloak


text:
Frappé

Frappé or frappe may refer to:

Food and drink

 * Frappé coffee, an iced coffee beverage made from instant coffee originally from Greece
 * Frappe, a milkshake with ice cream in New England
 * A drink similar to the trademarked Frappuccino
 * Frappe, an Italian and Corsican name for angel wings, a sweet, crisp pastry made with deep-fried dough

Other uses

 * Le temps frappé, a French term for musical downbeat
 * Force de frappe, the French Nuclear Force
 * Frappé, in Glossary of ballet

title: Frappé


text:
Snoops (1999 TV series)

Snoops is an American comedy-drama television series that aired on ABC from September 26 to December 19, 1999. Created by David E. Kelley, the show came about during the height of Kelley's fame, with both The Practice and Ally McBeal sustaining large audiences. Although the series garnered good ratings initially by averaging 11.5 million viewers, tying NBC in the ratings, it soon faltered and was cancelled quickly. Only ten of the thirteen episodes produced aired in the United States, while the final three episodes aired overseas. The final episode, which was rewritten by Kelley after the cancellation announcement, served as a series finale.

Synopsis
Snoops focuses on a less-than-conventional detective agency, Glenn Hall, Inc., headed by Glenn Hall (Gina Gershon). Her staff included Roberta Young (Paula Jai Parker), a detective who goes to great lengths to get the job done; Manny Lott (Danny Nucci), the resident technology wiz; and Dana Plant (Paula Marshall), a former Santa Monica police detective.

Main

 * Gina Gershon as Glenn Hall
 * Paula Marshall as Dana Plant (Episodes 1–11)
 * Danny Nucci as Manny Lott
 * Paula Jai Parker as Roberta Young
 * Edward Kerr as Detective Greg McCormack
 * Jessalyn Gilsig as Suzanne Shivers (Episodes 12 & 13)

Guest stars

 * John Glover as Gary Hyndman
 * Stephen Tobolowsky as Michael Bench
 * Priscilla Barnes as Herself
 * Casey Biggs as Gary Marlowe
 * D. B. Woodside as Avery
 * Emmy Rossum as Caroline Beels
 * Denise Crosby as Evelyn Houtch
 * David E. Kelley as Himself (cameo appearance)

Connection with other David E. Kelley's TV series
After the series was canceled, the character of Glenn Hall would later appear in an episode of the final season of The Practice entitled "The Firm". Series creator David E. Kelley later cast Jessalyn Gilsig on his FOX series Boston Public, and also cast one-time Snoops guest star Emmy Rossum in a multi-episode arc of The Practice.

Production
On December 16, 1998, David E. Kelley began production on the show, which was greenlighted by ABC. Principal photography began on August 15, 1999, in Los Angeles, California.

title: Snoops (1999 TV series)


text:
File:Shimbo.jpg

Taken using my camera.

title: File:Shimbo.jpg


text:
Talk:List of colleges and universities in metropolitan Boston

Various list improvements
I changed a few of the (city/town) locations given to agree with the location given on the college Websites and/or the Wikipeidia page for the school. Helpful to have official location when searching other sources for information. Lavishluau (talk) 03:46, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone else heard of Hellenic College in Brookline? http://www.hchc.edu/

Boston Architectural Center

Hellenic College is now on the list. Boston Architectural Center is the former name of Boston Architectural College, which is already on the list. --Macrakis 19:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Should there be sections for two-year colleges and for graduate-only programs (including seminaries -- see Boston Theological Institute)? --Macrakis 19:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Springfield College now has a "Boston" campus (in the old Schraft's building – is that Somerville or Charlestown?) so should be added to the list. The Longy School of Music is now a part of Bard. - anon Sept 30, 2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.31.46.0 (talk) 03:02, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Brandeis University is oddly missing. It is inside 128/95 in Waltham. I have not yet made an edit. --Gannetbird (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 14:56, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Inclusion
If this list is to mean all colleges and universities in the Metropolitan Statistical Area of Boston, we must include all of them down to Providence, Rhode Island, and up to southern New Hampshire. I originally opted for a "Metro-Boston" approach, limiting the list to the City of Boston and adjacent cities and towns, or at least places connected via the T. Can we get some input and clarification on this? I added Brown University since someone else added Gordon College and no one objected, but I'm more than willing to start culling the list for colleges that are well outside the Red Line, Green Line, Blue and Orange Lines, &c. --Aepoutre (talk) 20:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I don't think that colleges in Providence or Worcester should be included, as they are clearly discrete urban areas. I would limit the colleges included to those inside the 128, or perhaps the 495.  Antony-22 (talk) 04:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd love to limit them, just to keep the template a reasonable size. I can limit them based on, say the "Greater Boston Area" phone book, which included everything inside the 128/I-95 loop, and to the west of US-1. The confusing bit is that, technically, Providence is part of the Boston MSA while Worcester is not. I can remove what I find here that I wouldn't consider close enough to Boston to be what I would consider MetroBoston, but I'm not sure anyone else would back me up. --Aepoutre (talk) 20:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

 * The Metropolitan Statistical Area is gigantic and contrived area, generated by a non-local organization. The MSA is not used as a colloquial basis for the Boston metropolitan area. Worcester MA and Providence RI are well beyond the bounds of the Massachusetts state route 128 highway, which is the region is generally considered the metropolitan Boston area.  Any institutions outside of the territory bounded by Massachusetts state route 128 are just not even close to being a neighboring municipality to the core municipalities: Boston, Brookline, Cambridge, Medford, Newton, Quincy, Somerville. Worcester institutions are listed on an entire state of Massachusetts list. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 22:26, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Since people keep insisting that we include colleges ouside the 128, should we create a third section for those schools? Antony-22 (talk) 05:49, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure who exactly keeps insisting other than a few who think Worcester is Boston, but I admit that I may not be up to speed. I'd say that we're fine with a List of colleges and universities in Massachusetts apart from urban areas like Boston's Inner Core, which doesn't expand much beyond 128/1, and the Worcester area. To make separate inside/outside lists based on each interstate around the Hub, rather than specific urbanized areas, might be overdoing it just a bit. --Aepoutre (talk) 23:16, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S. There is a Worcester Consortium for schools in that urban area. I'll check to see that template is included in the Mass. list --Aepoutre (talk) 23:21, 2 November 2008 (UTC) It is. --Aepoutre (talk) 03:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

From my talk page: College of the Holy Cross is located in Worcester, Massachusetts which is part of the greater Boston metropolitan area. Worcester is on the MBTA commuter rail to Boston with 12 daily trains. Many people live in Worcester and commute to Boston for work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.24.80 (talk) 01:55, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That statement is erroneous. While the "Greater Boston Area" might even include southern New Hampshire and Providence, Rhode Island, it has never included Worcester, Massachusetts, which has its own metropolitan area. It also has a Worcester Consortium for Worcester-area schools. Furthermore, if you see Talk:List of colleges and universities in metropolitan Boston, you'll notice that the template is limited to institutions in MetroBoston, inside the MA-128/US-1 loop. Including everything beyond that would make it unwieldy. Please understand, in case you come from any particular non-NPOV, that occlusion from the template is not a reflection on a college's quality or reputation. --Aepoutre (talk) 02:46, 27 November 2008 (UTC) --Aepoutre (talk) 03:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Theological schools
Some theological seminaries are part of larger institutions: e.g, Harvard Divinity School, BU School of Theology, Boston College School of Theology and Ministry (formerly the independent Weston Jesuit School of Theology). These are not being listed under "Bible colleges and theological seminaries" for this reason. I suggest that for the sake of clarity the header be changed: for example, to "Bible colleges and independent theological seminaries" or "Bible colleges and theological seminaries not listed above". Chonak (talk) 18:19, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The schools are part of universities. Neither this list nor the template should include every single school at every single university in addition to every single school that is not part of a university. For each attempt in the past to add a school or college that is part of a university, the change has been reverted for the sake of preventing it from becoming unwieldy, because Wikipedia is not a directory, and because such a school or college is already represented by the university to which it belongs -- one entry, not multiple entries, for a university. I agree with the logic used in the past, for the most part. If you want to write an article on the Weston Jesuit School of Theology from before it became part of Boston College, then I'd certainly welcome that. I think doing so would further the cause of establishing substantive Wikipedia coverage. I wouldn't say that adding every single college or school that is part of an American university does anything but make for a long list, and that's not very substantive. --Aepoutre (talk) 19:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I see there is already a link for the school of theology. Regardless, you are welcome to research the topic and add to the history, since its former independence would be of interest. I also see that BC has a navbox of its own for each of its constituent schools. --Aepoutre (talk) 19:19, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Move Longy to graduate schools?
Longy School of Music offers only graduate degrees; its undergrad program is a degree program through Emerson College. I suggest moving it to the list of "Seminaries and graduate schools". Chonak (talk) 23:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. I also undid my Radcliffe add. --Aepoutre (talk) 00:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

School of the MFA
The School of the Museum of Fine Arts may be a special case. All its degree programs, undergraduate and graduate, appear to be in partnership with Tufts and Northeastern. Does the School award degrees? Is it a college? It is recognized by the USDoE as an institution of higher education. Chonak (talk) 05:01, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Campuses
Yes, I disagree. Here's my rationale: if we list every campus for every school, this list is going to get a lot messier, even in terms of where to locate them -- some schools based outside Boston proper have campuses in the city and some have campuses outside the scope of this list, in Massachusetts and beyond. Just as we shouldn't list every single school that's part of a university, we shouldn't list every single campus because it too makes the list unwieldy. Wikipedia certianly doesn't need to list everything since it's an encyclopedia, not a college guide, travel guide, or directory. If readers want to know the details about each institution, we've provided them with a list of links to those articles. --King of the Arverni (talk) 21:38, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Ugh, I'm sorry Antony-22, I didn't mean to revert your edit, though. I meant to remove that space at the bottom and just leave an edit summary that you'd notice. Stupid of me, except I did notice a little institutional addition when I went to undo my own revert. Judging by the edit summary, I might never have noticed that. A potentially misleading edit summary? Regardless, my opinion on the campus matter hasn't changed. --King of the Arverni (talk) 21:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Sorry about the Babson thing, I just reverted back to the version before yours and I didn't realize that Wellesley is outside the 95. I do think that for schools such as Harvard and Tufts, where there is a significant academic presence in more than one city, both should be listed.  Otherwise it gives the impression that the university is solely in one city.  I agree that we need to keep the list from getting messy, but listing two cities after the name is the most unobstrusive way to do this.  I don't think that listing two cities in a few cases makes the article unwieldy at all.  Are there many more cases than these two?  There aren't any other obvious ones in the image in the article.  Antony-22 (talk) 23:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delay, Antony! I've been distracted by other matters. Ah, thanks for explaining the Babson thing; no worries, then, I totally understand.
 * Getting back to the campus bit: you make a decent argument, and I see the merits, but I'm still not entirely convinced.
 * -- Perhaps I'm just being a stickler, but I'm not sure how we'd quantify what you've said, and, more importantly, verify the notion that some are "heavily involved in other cities" or even more so than others (other than vague ideas that Harvard is big and important).
 * -- BU has a Corporate Education Center or something near Chelmsford. I see a sign for it every time I drive Route 3. I don't know much about it, but I know of its existence. There's another Northeastern campus somewhere, too, if I recall. Perhaps when I was driving Route 2 or 16. Northeastern also has a clinical site in Quincy and Eastern Nazarene has some satellite campus in Swansea. Suffolk has a campus in Dubai or something. How do we classify those, and where's the line for "significant"? Significant for whom? And is it only significant for the universities you consider significant? So I guess some of it could be trying to establish good NPOV.
 * -- And is it is just a matter of square mileage? You can barely see Suffolk on the map, but Harvard has an arboretum in the city. I consider Suffolk and Emerson to be pretty well-known but they're smaller than, say Curry by square acreage. Likewise, it looks as though Tufts Medical isn't as prominent as Bentley. Just some thoughts.
 * -- I guess I'm saying that "more than one campus" would make it messy and the fairly subjective "significant" academic presence argument doesn't clearly draw the line anywhere.
 * -- It honestly makes most sense to me to keep the main campus and the single institution idea. I know Tufts' campus spreads all about Medford and Somerville, but their address is a Medford address. If people want to know more about the campus details, they can go to the article and read about the institution and its locations, which is why we've linked them. I don't think the list aims to be so comprehensive to list that much detail.
 * If we do decide to keep it at one-institution and one-campus, we can add visible disclaimers just that for the loop or hidden ones like that for the institutions. For now, though, let's keep this discussion going; I'd really like to hear more of your thoughts, Antony. --King of the Arverni (talk) 17:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, here goes:

-- I do agree that there needs to be an objective, agreed-upon criterion for inclusion. I also agree that square footage is not a good criterion because many colleges own a lot of land that isn't currently used for academic purposes.

-- Harvard and Tufts really are the extreme cases that warrant inclusion - Harvard has four of its eleven schools in Boston, and Tufts has four of its eight schools in Boston. My thoughts are that a good criterion is whether there is at least one entire "school" there, being defined as a degree-granting major administrative division of the university.

-- The BU Corporate Education center isn't degree-granting. I don't see anything about a second major campus in the Northeastern article, and anything outside the 128 wouldn't pertain to this article. If there are any other cases of an entire degree-granding school being in another city, I'm sure someone would have brought it up already or will add it in the future.

-- I will agree that Tufts spilling over into Somerville doesn't warrant a mention, especially since it seems to be only a small portion of the campus.

Again, I don't think that double-barrelled locations for a few institutions will make the list unwieldy, and I do think that there's a clear enough difference between an entire school and the mentioned sattelite centers that there (hopefully) shouldn't be borderline cases.

Antony-22 (talk) 05:13, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed your new table format for the list - I think that does make it more unwieldy to mention inline, but perhaps an asterisk directing to a sentence at the bottom, or just a sentence in the lead, would probably be the best way to go about this.

Antony-22 (talk) 05:18, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, thanks for the comments! And I hope you like the table. You make some good points and I really like your very last suggestion. I think it would be a great idea to put a sentence in the lead. When I first implemented use of the table, I originally had a footnote, but it didn't feel right. I'll add a sentence now, I think. --King of the Arverni (talk) 18:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I do like that solution. Yay for bold-revert-discuss!! Antony-22 (talk) 18:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Table Broken
The sort by Enrollment button improperly sorts the table. I'm new and have no idea how to work with tables, else I would fix it myself. Zklink (talk) 05:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Enrollment Data
There is a discrepancy of 5000 students between the table data and the Harvard report. Do the numbers include students in the non-degree granting Harvard Extension School? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.150.1.76 (talk) 01:51, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, the Extension School does offer degree programs. --Chonak (talk) 13:00, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Bachelor vs. Baccalaureate
I see both categories are being used. Are they actually differentiated, or just being used interchangeably? I was told at my undergrad school that we were awarded a baccalaureate degree rather than a bachelor's because it required a thesis or original research rather than just four years of study. I don't know whether this is universal or just propaganda my school liked to push. Should we just change all of them to one term or the other? Triangular (talk) 01:49, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Gordon–Conwell Theological Seminary
Should Gordon-Conwell be removed? The main campus is in the suburbs outside of 128. Also, the Boston satellite campus is in Roxbury, but that is a neighborhood of Boston (I live here). All of the other institutions are listed as their city/town, not their neighborhood. Triangular (talk) 01:50, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on List of colleges and universities in metropolitan Boston. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130828132004/http://cihe.neasc.org/about_our_institutions/roster_of_institutions/ to http://cihe.neasc.org/about_our_institutions/roster_of_institutions/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 21:58, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Inscrutable
I came to Wikipedia to see an authoritative list of colleges in the Boston area. As usual I give up and must look elsewhere:

1. I count 45 entries in the table. The only quantity I see approaching it in your introductory text is 44. Either don't contradict yourself or don't publish.

2. For me, a mere man on the street, the data in column Classification are conflated. For some entries you state the degree level; for others you state what I take to mean merely the type of school. Take Boston University and Brandeis. All you say is that they are research. Meaning their certificates don't fall in the traditional associate-bachelors-masters-doctorate spectrum? Somehow, I doubt it.

Begging the ancillary Q: Which colleges grant doctorates?  You don't say. Does, say, research and special focus imply that? If so, say so explicitly in the explanatory text. Or, perhaps better, add a new column, Degree level, and for every school state that datum. Reserving the Classification column for your research and special focus values. For other schools, state general, or whatever term is appropriate.

3. In the text you name Episcopal Divinity School. Where is that institution in the table?

4a. Your sister list, the Wiki list of colleges in Mass., says Labouré College is in Boston. Your table, and the article on the college, say Milton. Sounds like you're right, but whichever is wrong, fix it/them.

4b. In the other table, Mass. College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences is out of αβ order. Fix those incompetents.

Yours for a more, er, educated America.

Jimlue (talk) 05:07, 5 February 2023 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Guillaume Amontons

Article citations
Is the 1695 citation complete? Compare with the French article. — DIV (128.250.204.118 06:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC))

Graham's and Charles's laws
This page stated that Amontons discovered Graham's law. That would place him as the earliest formulator of the kinetic theory, decades before Daniel Bernoulli who is credited most everywhere. I can find no mention of Amontons having made any such discovery but he is credited with discovering Charles's law. I have made the correction.

excessive and confusing detail on laws of friction
The article on Friction has all the same info on these laws. I propose these details be removed. If anyone has info on Amontons's experimental or theoretical process for discovering them, or on their publication, reception, etc., I would think those more appropriate for a biography.Dfeuer (talk) 17:27, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed the material that belongs at friction. RJFJR (talk) 16:13, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Guillaume Amontons


text:
User:Zootm

zootm is the internet handle of Calum Leslie. Hurrah!

title: User:Zootm


text:
Talk:Conditional access

Hardware pairing, smart cards, PCMCIA CI modules are not discussed. This article appears half baked and appears inadequate for any person trying to learn from Wikipedia. I wish people put in more effort.

It seems to me that conditional access is just newspeak for access control - is there any point having a second entry? or can we just switch conditional access to a redirect to access control ? e.g. on this web site of people who link non-free content http://www.scmmicro.de/dvb/index.html all uses of conditional access seem to be just a fancy new name for access control or encryption/decryption. Boud 11:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I concur. This should probably be redirected to access control. If necessary, access control could mention the term conditional access as an alternate/buzzword name. - Alynna 13:12, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Condtional Access is TV jargon, meaning slightly more than just access control. the Wikipedia has a good if extremely messy article on this, which I'm going to try to emulate (but not translate, both it and my German aren't good enough) here, and use this solely to refer to condional access in the DVB sense. --Kiand 17:26, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Access control article is ok for the general concepts, but the specifics for the Telecommunications and CE domain must be explained in an isolated context so that the reader is not swamped with out of context peripheral concepts (eg. access control to a building). For example, if someone were trying to understand DVB-CA or Cablecard security access schemes, the predication chain they could follow is Cablecard ISA system employing conditional access which ISA access control mechanism.  Conditional access software is an approach which is being considered by Consumer electronics and Media distribution companies worldwide for use not just in television but portable media applications.  It is closely related to Digital Rights Management which is a source of a great deal of user interest and confusion.  As such, "Conditional Access" is valuable term not because it is fashionable, but because it is a significant and distinct consumer electronics and telecommunications concept.  It deserves separate treatment in a separate article, but I do agree that the general concepts should be referred to the access control article. -Mak 18:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The arbitrary and original research in the list and other information will make merging this information difficult. I think redirecting to Access control is the best and make mention of the basic term of Conditional access along with citations that can be found in reliable sources.

I've tagged the article for:
 * This article contains embedded lists that may be poorly defined, unverified or indiscriminate.
 * This article possibly contains original research.
 * This article's use of red links may not follow Wikipedia's guidelines.

on top of the others that have been put onto the article:
 * The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. (January 2015)
 * This article needs additional citations for verification. (March 2008)

Pmedema (talk) 17:41, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Suggested merge
It seemed logical to me to merge the content from Conditional access system into the main Conditional access article, as the former is directly derived from the latter. I won't make any sudden changes though until enough time has passed to allow for others to comment here. Bumm13 (talk) 09:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Subscriber costs
The article doesn't mention fees the subscriber has to pay to even be able to get conditional access.

In Ohio, your 'basic cable' fees will increase substantially if you utilize the cablecard scheme to decode the channels they have moved to their digital tiers, such as C-SPAN 2. They do not provide a signal that can be decoded by a standard HDTV tuner.

If you have analog service at $10/month, Time Warner wants to 'rent' the cablecard at 2.50/month, and you would still have to provide some sort of box to plug the cablecard into - unless there is a TV model that is compatible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.101.136.61 (talk) 13:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I have heard that even if you buy your own cablecard, cable operators and other access providers can and do still charge for access through the cablecard. Nick Garnett 15:09, 18 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickgarnett (talk • contribs)

Market barrier to entry
I would like to add a short section on the fact that conditional access technologies can act as a major bottleneck in competition between pay-TV broadcasters. According to Nolan, D. Bottlenecks in pay television: Impact on market development in Europe Telecommunications Policy, 1997, 21, 597-610:
 * Establishment of conditional access dominance flows from first-mover advantages, consumer resistance to 'box-towers' of decoders from different service providers/delivery system operators. and the manner in which conditional access is implemented in the decoder (embedded vs. attachable). (p. 601)

Any thoughts on this? Niclas 08:20, 10 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Niclas M. (talk • contribs)

Conflct of interest (Viaccess employee)
I recently made an edit that revoked a prior edit. This edit removed a number of entries on the Viaccess conditional access system. The editor's IP address (195.6.224.137) is from Viaccess themselves. More specifically, an IP address belonging to "VIAACCESS SA," a firm involved in the development of DRM. See Viaccess, or the site at viaacess.com. The user's contributions are certainly interesting. The IP's reverse DNS is actually chronos.viaccess.com, and given it's from an organization, I'm going to guess that it's an outbound NAT device, so these contributions may be from multiple employees.

My thought/question: does an employee of a DRM company making changes to pages about DRM constitute an expert contribution? Conflict of interest? I'm sure there's a policy on it somewhere. Only two such edits seem to be conflict-y, but they're definitely conflict-y. I've revoked the one on this page. Comments encouraged! Overand (talk) 16:25, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Conditional access. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110726100247/http://www.niir.ru/eng/page.php?trid=96 to http://www.niir.ru/eng/page.php?trid=96

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 00:51, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

widevine compromised
L3 https://twitter.com/David3141593/status/1080606827384131590?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.8.243.184 (talk) 05:09, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Conditional access


text:
Talk:Belief propagation

The use of factor graphs in the description of the algorithm seems weaker than the approach taken by Yedidia et al in. At least the one taken here is less clear.
 * In fact, factor graphs are more general than pairwise Markov random fields, the model used by Yedidia in the technical report to which you make reference. For instance, see a more recent technical report by Yedidia et al. in .  It's also not hard to see how belief propagation in the pairwise MRF setting can be converted to BP in the factor graph setting. Ikcotyck 01:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

What is this article by Lauritzen and Spiegelhalter in 1986? I only know of one in 1988 called ;Local Computation with Probabilities in Graphical Structures and Their Applications to Expert Systems"
 * Hmm.. That's the article I know as well, I can't remember why I put 1986. Ikcotyck

There is a reference to the "diameter of the tree" in the general graphs section which doesn't help since it doesn't mention trees. maddanio

It is mentioned that Belief Propagation and Sum-Product are equivalent. This is wrong! What is true is that BP can be formulated as a special case of SP. Please consult Bishop in Pattern Recognition Machine learning, page 403. Gugux (talk) 00:08, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

We have discussed this already a bit below.

Computer vision category
I removed this article from the computer vision category. BP is probably not unrelated to CV but

 * 1) It is not a methodology developed within CV or specific to CV
 * 2) There is no material in this article which relates it to CV.

--KYN 22:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

 * That's true. Perhaps I can work in some computer vision-related material... Iknowyourider (t c) 23:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

"Belief"?
Could someone explain what the word "belief" refers to in this context? Gwideman (talk) 11:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I assume it refers to the subjectivist school of probability of using probability theory to describe a state of knowledge (the "degree of belief"). —3mta3 (talk) 10:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

That is correct. However, the article states that belief propagation is inherently Bayesian, which is wildly untrue. The probabilistic interpretation is irrelevant as BP is a consequence of the model itself, which is a mathematical property, not a philosophical one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.42.152.184 (talk) 23:39, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

You can get interpretation of "beliefs" by looking at trees where belief propagation is exact. In that case, the message m(x)_{j->i} is the probability of observing x at node i in a tree rooted at edge i,j. In other words, each message aka "belief" represents distribution of states in the current node according to all the nodes "below it". In "loopy" belief propagation, the tree "below" current node is infinite, however this quantity can still be well-defined, in which case belief propagation converges. Yaroslav Bulatov (talk) 18:41, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

special case?
The article currently states that BP is a special case of the sum-product algorithm (and refers to an article which makes the same assertion). What other cases are there? Is the max-product algorithm for finding maximum a posteriori estimates also considered a type of BP? —3mta3 (talk) 10:42, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * A previous commenter referred to Bishop, p 403. Luckily this chapter is available on line. He also asserts that it is a special case (but again, without saying why). —3mta3 (talk) 10:49, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

It really depends on what people call 'Belief Propagation'. imho, the most satisfying definition is the one defining BP as the general principle of applying a 'dynamic programming' principle on a tree, obtain a recursive system of equations involving messages on the edges of a graph, and then apply these equations to any graph. That way, min-sum, max-product, sum-product are all seen as coming from the same principle (they only differ on whether we are computing the marginals/partition function of a problem or the mode/optimal assignment, and whether we are working in the log domain or not). It also removes the arbitrary distinction between pairwise model and factor graph model. It's also the definition adopted by the Jordan-Wainwright monograph, or the Mezard-Montanari book. I'll remove the reference to 'special case', but we can discuss it further if there is a big disagreement on the matter...

Matrix inversion, solving systems of linear equations, Fourier transform over finite groups and survey propagation can be implemented using the same algorithm as BP by a proper substitution of marginalization/product operators and a proper choice of graphical model. Search for "Generalized Distributive Law", Wainwright's article on Survey Propagation, and "Gaussian BP for linear equation solving" for details of these examples. Yaroslav Bulatov (talk) 18:48, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Fuzzy logic
Is there any connection at all with fuzzy logic? just-emery (talk) 18:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

 * I don't think so. Belief propagation works within a Bayesian probabilistic framework, which ultimately satisfies the Kolmogorov axioms for probability theory. Fuzzy logic is, well I'm not sure that anyone quite knows what fuzzy logic is, but its proponents maintain that it isn't probability theory. —3mta3 (talk) 19:18, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Not all of them. from the article Fuzzy logic:
 * "On the other hand, Bart Kosko argues that probability is a subtheory of fuzzy logic, as probability only handles one kind of uncertainty. He also claims to have proven a derivation of Bayes' theorem from the concept of fuzzy subsethood"
 * Bayesian probability as a form of fuzzy logic is what I had in mind but I see that this is disputed. I'm going to try to add a link to Belief propagation (instead of Fuzzy logic) to the article Soft-in soft-out decoder. just-emery (talk) 20:20, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

 * I guess I should have said "but its proponents maintain that it isn't JUST probability theory". —3mta3 (talk) 20:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Messages and confusion
What actually is a message here? It is stated that it is a "real-valued function". So, does belief propagation correspond with propagation of "functions" over the edges of a factor graph? It is stated that there are two "types" of messages. Or they actually distinguishable? They don't seem to have different arguments, both take $$x_v$$ as argument. Then, can a message by "1", shall this be understood as the identify function? When the neighbourhood of $$N(v)\setminus\{u\}$$ is empty, then $$\mu_{v \to u}(x_v)$$ is set to the uniform distribution. That one almost makes sense. Maybe it is meant that it is set to the probability mass function, respectively the probability density function of the discrete or continuous uniform distribution, see for example the Probability mass function. A set is not denoted by X=(Xv) and the exclusion of one element of the set which has the latex \setminus is not used in: $$p_{X_i}(x_i) = \sum_{\mathbf{x}': x'_i=x_i} p(\mathbf{x}').$$.

If this entity $$\mathbf{x}'$$ is meant as a vector that enters this mass function then this is the notation of deleting one element from a vector?

From Koller and Friedman's book it is obvious that sum-product message passing does not only operate on a factor graph: https://www.coursera.org/learn/probabilistic-graphical-models

I really hope someone who cares a bit about math is taking a second look at this page. It is really hard to understand now what it all means. Even simple things like the notation of the joint probability mass function:

$$p(\mathbf{x})$$ with $$\mathbf{x}=[x_1,\ldots,x_k]^T$$ is used as a shorthand for $$p(X_1=x_1,\ldots,X_k=x_k)$$.

Andy (talk) 21:56, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I quite agree all of this is not very clear. I made a small edit to at least make it clear that a message from u to v is a real-valued function whose domain is the set of possible values for the random variable associated with v. But more should be done. Tokidokix (talk) 09:15, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

 * The version of the marginal probability function from http://www.statlect.com/glossary/marginal_probability_mass_function.htm seems clearer:
 * $$p_{\mathbf{X}_i}(x) = \sum_{(x_1,\ldots,x_K) \in R_{\mathbf{X}}:x_i=x} p_{\mathbf{X}}(x_1,\ldots,x_K)$$
 * 70.166.18.67 (talk) 23:12, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * "Messages" are used in the context of (loopy) Belief Propagation instead of "probabilities" because they behave in many ways like probabilities but aren't strictly probabilities as the (loopy) graphs have dependencies which make the factorized form of updates used in Belief Propagation only an approximation.
 * To put it another way, Belief Propagation is exact on trees, and the "messages" in this case conform directly to "probabilities". When moving away from trees into general graphs, graphs with loops in them, we can't use "probabilities" any more because the probability function is potentially very complex and not easily written down in the sum product form used in Belief Propagation, so the term "messages" is used. The hope is that the graph is locally independent enough ("locally tree like") so that the now "messages" correspond closely to "probabilities", but they're not strictly probabilities because the (potentially very complicated) dependence of different states of the x's hasn't been taken into account.
 * In the formulations I've seen, "messages" and "belief" are forcibly normalized after every update iteration, in order to make the messages conform more closely to probabilities (presumably?). Abetusk (talk) 00:08, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Max-product Belief Propagation
It seems strange to me that Belief Propagation would be used to only refer to the Sum-Product Belief Propagation. The Max-Product Belief Propagation has been quite studied too (and a google scholar search shows that the term "Max-Product Belief Propagation" is actually commonly used by researchers in the Graphical Model field). Furthermore it seems to me Belief Propagation is supposed to work for any semiring. If this is not controversial, I would like to refactor a bit the article to emphasize that Belief Propagation can be used with different semirings, and that the Sum-Product and Max-Product semirings are the most commonly used. This would also make the section about Viterbi more relevant, and would hopefully make everything easier to understand by showing the parallelism with the classic Hidden Markov Model algorithms (Sum-Product BP essentially reduces to the Forward-Backward algorithm in a HMM, and Max-Product BP reduces to the Viterbi algorithm). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tokidokix (talk • contribs) 07:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Write "1" instead of the "Uniform distribution"
I think that it's more correct — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BF8:200:FF70:B89D:1E76:B49A:A3B2 (talk) 15:41, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Free Energy Section
This part isn't clear at all. I'll try to write something more precise based on the work of Yedidia et al. I wonder what these sentence means: "It can then be shown that the points of convergence of the sum-product algorithm represent the points where the free energy in such a system is minimized. Similarly, it can be shown that a fixed point of the iterative belief propagation algorithm in graphs with cycles is a stationary point of a free energy approximation"

While the second one is true, the first one seems false. Except in particular cases the entropy term is usually approximated.Victolunik (talk) 22:10, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

 * The statement about "free energy" being the fixed point of Belief Propagation should be the "Bethe free energy" approximation, which *is* minimized by the message passing algorithm of belief propagation. "Generalized Belief Propagation" by Yedidia, Freeman and Weiss as well as "Constructing Free Energy Approximations and Generalized Belief Propagation Algorithms", by the same set of authors, go into detail about the equivalence.
 * Briefly, setting up Lagrange multipliers with the constraints of the system yields the equivalence. I've found the "Constructing Free Energy ..." paper to be the more readable one.
 * Some other, potentially obvious, statements are that the Bethe free energy is exact for trees but not necessarily so in general. In general, for "loopy" graphs, the fixed points of the Bethe free energy could be local minima, so a fixed point doesn't always correspond to a global minima or solution. (One?) of the basic assumption for using Belief Propagation on a problem (successfully) is that the system is "locally tree like", meaning the "loopy" correlations don't whack out the minima of the Bethe free energy so that they correspond to "real" answers.
 * The Lagrange multipliers calculation effectively shows that gradient descent of the Bethe free energy *is* the message passing algorithm of Belief Propagation. To be a little more verbose, and as some intuition, the Bethe free energy, up to some extraneous terms, is essentially the Kullback Leibler divergence of the current guess of the probability distribution (the current set of "beliefs" or "mu"s) versus the underlying "system dynamics" (the adjacency function, ("f_a" in the article)). Abetusk (talk) 23:58, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Gallager, 1963!
Why Judea Pearl in 1982? This was proposed by Gallager, 1963! See "Bounds on the Performance of Belief Propagation Decoding" by David Burshtein and Gadi Miller, http://www.josephboutros.org/ldpc_vs_turbo/ldpc_Burshtein_Miller_IT02.pdf. I understand, Pearl proposed the name "Belief_propagation" only ≈≈≈≈ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.254.126.223 (talk) 10:34, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

 * Agreed!! Gallager's algorithm also was in the general context of loopy graphs 2A01:CB00:35:C000:6D81:7F0C:15E0:A595 (talk) 21:22, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Belief propagation


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A Small Incident

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete, (at the moment, cannot transwiki as the copyright is unclear). Dmcdevit·t 07:56, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

A_Small_Incident
This is just a transcribe of a chinese writing. Doesn't belong in an encyclopedia as it is. If someone knows somewhere to put it, I suggest it should be moved there and redirected. Otherwise, I call for deletion. Lucio @ 11:42 (UTC) 14 July 2005
 * A translation of an essay written in 1920 by Lu Xun. Wikipedia is not a repository of source materials.  Depending from the date of the translation, copyright may or may not have expired.  If it has, Transwiki to the PD documents by named authors section of Wikisource and delete.   If it has not, just delete.  Let the redlink in Lu Xun stand in either case.  Uncle G 12:25, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - not an article for the Wiki A curate's egg 14:55, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Transwiki or delete per Uncle G. Dcarrano 19:57, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete --jonasaurus 21:30, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Transwiki siafu 23:41, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete not encyclopedic. JamesBurns 03:20, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete or Transwiki, as per above. IINAG 19:58, July 25, 2005 (GMT)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Indo-African

African-Indian, usually refers to people of mixed Indian and African heritage.
 * By demographic
 * Dougla, Caribbean people who are of mixed African and Indian descent
 * Chagossians, people of African, Malagasy and Indian ancestry who formerly lived in the Chagos Islands
 * Members of the Indian diaspora living in Africa and citizens of India living in Africa:
 * Indian South Africans
 * Indian diaspora in Southeast Africa
 * Indians in Botswana
 * Indians in Madagascar
 * Indians in Kenya
 * Indians in Mozambique
 * Indians in Réunion and Malbars (Réunionnais of Tamil origin)
 * Indians in Tanzania
 * Indians in Uganda
 * Indians in Zambia
 * Indians in Zimbabwe
 * Mauritians of Indian origin
 * Indo-Seychellois
 * Members of the African diaspora living in India:
 * Siddis, a South Asian community of Bantu descent
 * Siddis of Karnataka, a Karnataka community of Bantu descent
 * Afro-Asians in South Asia, South Asian people of African descent

Occasionally, the term "African Indian" may refer to people of mixed African and Indigenous American heritage, such as Zambo people or Black Native Americans in the United States, as "Indian" is also used venerably if colloquially to refer to indigenous people of the Americas.

title: Indo-African