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Hindu wedding

A Hindu wedding, also known as Vivaha (Devanagari: विवाह; Vivaaha), Marathi: Lagna (लग्न), Bengali: Bibaho (বিবাহ), Kalyanam (Devanagari: कल्याणम्; Telugu: కళ్యాణం), Kannada script: ಮದುವೆ (Maduve), திருமணம் (Tirumanam), or Pelli (పెళ్లి), is the traditional wedding ceremony for Hindus. The wedding ceremonies are very colourful, and celebrations may extend for several days and usually a large number of people attend the wedding functions. The bride's and groom's home—entrance, doors, wall, floor, roof—are sometimes decorated with colors, flowers, and other decorations.

The word vivāha originated as a sacred union of two people as per Vedic traditions, i.e. what many call marriage, but based on cosmic laws and advanced ancient practices. Under Vedic Hindu traditions, marriage is viewed as one of the saṁskāras performed during the life of a human being, which are lifelong commitments of one wife and one husband. In India, marriage has been looked upon as having been designed by the cosmos and considered as a "sacred oneness witnessed by fire itself." Hindu families have traditionally been patrilocal.

The Arya Samaj movement popularized the term Vedic wedding among the Hindu expatriates in north during the colonial era, it was however prevalent in south India even before. The roots of this tradition are found in hymn 10.85 of the Rigveda Shakala samhita, which is also called the "Rigvedic wedding hymn".

The rituals and processes of a Hindu wedding vary widely, by region and community. Nevertheless, the Hindu wedding ceremony at its core is essentially a Vedic yajna ritual and three key rituals are almost universal: Kanyadana— giving away of his daughter by the father, Panigrahana— voluntarily holding hands near the fire to signify union, and Saptapadi— taking seven 'steps before fire'. (Each 'step' is a complete circuit of the fire.)

At each step, promises are made by (in the long-form—see below) each to the other. The primary witness of a Hindu marriage is the fire-deity (or the Sacred Fire) Agni, in the presence of family and friends. The ceremony is traditionally conducted entirely or at least partially in Sanskrit, considered by Hindus as the language of holy ceremonies. The local language of the bride and groom may also be used. The rituals are prescribed in the Gruhya sutra composed by various rishis such as Apastamba, Baudhayana and Ashvalayana.

The pre-wedding and post-wedding rituals and celebrations vary by region, preference and the resources of the groom, bride and their families. They can range from one day to multi-day events. Pre-wedding ceremonies include engagement, which involves vagdana (betrothal) and Lagna-patra (written declaration), and Varyatra— the arrival of the groom's party at the bride's residence, often as a formal procession with dancing and music. The post-wedding ceremonies may include Abhisheka, Anna Prashashana, Aashirvadah, and Grihapravesa – the welcoming of the bride to her new home. The wedding marks the start of the Grhastha (householder) stage of life for the new couple.

In India, by law and tradition, no Hindu marriage is binding or complete unless the ritual of seven steps and vows in presence of fire (Saptapadi) is completed by the bride and the groom together. This requirement is under debate, given that several Hindu communities (such as the Nairs of Kerala or Bunts of Tulu Nadu) do not observe these rites.

Institution of marriage
According to the Veda, marriage is a union between a masculine and feminine entity with commitments to pursue Dharma (duty), Artha (earning money and other possessions), Kama (physical and other desires) and Moksha (the eternal liberation) in unison. Scripturally, it is viewed as a celebration of sensual pleasure, progress, prosperity and joy as it is also a pyramid of elevation to the next level of one's Karmic experience. Society recognizes this and puts in place quality controls since it influences the social and cultural growth of society. According to Manusmriti, or Manu's text, there are eight different types of marriages. Not all eight are approved by Scriptures. The last four were not advocated and the last one was condemned. These are: Brahma marriage, Daiva marriage, Arsha marriage, Prajapatya marriage, Gandharva marriage, Asura marriage, Paishacha marriage.

Samskara
Cosmic rituals constitute an important part of Vedic practices/the Hindu religion. Rituals were designed to build a solid foundation for Dharmic living. They are known as Samskaras. Their purpose is to spread awareness and uplift social consciousness. The Veda has instituted sixteen different Samskara meant for different phases of life from conception to marriage to old age and death. The word samskara in Sanskrit means 'to cause indelible impressions on consciousness and to develop every aspect of oneself.' Out of the sixteen Samskaras in The Scripture, and consequently in Hinduism, the sacred practice of marriage or Vivaha Samskara is the most important and marks a milestone in journey of life. Vivaha Samskara influences the life of a couple as partners by enabling them to take their rightful place as creators in society.

Key rituals
There is no single standard Hindu marriage ceremony. Regional variation is prevalent in the sequence of rituals comprising the ceremony. There is also considerable flexibility within each ritual. Variation reflects family traditions, local traditions, resources of the families and other factors. Three key rituals predominate, as follows. Two are yajna.
 * Kanyadana – the giving away of his daughter by the father.
 * Panigrahana – a ritual in presence of fire, where the groom takes the bride's hand as a sign of their union.
 * Saptapadi – the crucial ritual. The term means 'seven steps', with each step corresponding (in the Long Form) to a pair of vows: groom to the bride, and bride to groom. The vows are pronounced in Sanskrit; sometimes also in the native or regional language of the couple. (For the Short Form see below.)  Like Panigrahana, Saptapadi is performed in presence of fire, and in many weddings, after each of their seven oaths to each other, the groom and bride perform the ritual of agnipradakshinam: walking around the fire, with hands linked or with the ends of their garments tied together. The groom usually leads the bride in the walk for first few Pheras —circumambulatem around the consecrated fire, then the bride leads the groom in the rest.   Fire is the divine witness (to the marriage), and after Saptapadi the couple are considered husband and wife.

Kanyadana
The Kanyadana ceremony is performed by the bride's father. If the father has died, a guardian of the bride's choosing performs the ritual. The father brings the daughter, then takes the bride's hand and places it in the groom's. This marks the beginning of the ceremony of giving away the bride. The groom accepts the bride's hand, while the kama-sukta (hymn to love) is pronounced, in the presence of the father, the bride and the groom. The Kamasukta verse is:

''Who offered this maiden? to whom is she offered?'' Kama (the god of love) gave her to me, that I may love her Love is the giver, love is the acceptor Enter thou, the bride, the ocean of love

With love then, I receive thee May she remain thine, thine own, O God of love Verily, thou art, prosperity itself May the heaven bestow thee, may the earth receive thee

After this ritual recital, the father asks the groom to not fail the bride in his pursuit of dharma (moral and lawful life), artha (wealth) and kama (love). The groom promises to the bride's father that he shall never fail her in his pursuit of dharma, artha and kama. The groom repeats the promise three times. As per several stone inscriptions that have been found from 15th century in the Vijayanagara empire, to fight the epidemic of bride price, a community group of Brahmins created a social legislation to adopt the marriage system of kanyadana for their community. It was mandated that no money should be paid or received during marriage and those who do not follow are liable for punishment by the King. The above inscriptions also reinforce that system of social legislations within community groups was widely in practice as against personal laws based on religious scriptures.

This repeated promise by the groom marks the end of the kanyadaan ritual in the Hindu wedding.

Panigrahana
The ritual of Panigrahana comes after Kanyadana. It is sometimes preceded by the vivaha-homa rite, wherein a symbolic fire is lit by the groom to mark the start of a new household.

Panigrahana is the 'holding the hand' ritual as a symbol of the bride and groom's impending marital union, with the groom acknowledging a responsibility to four deities: Bhaga signifying wealth, Aryama signifying heavens/milky way, Savita signifying radiance/new beginning, and Purandhi signifying wisdom. The groom faces west, and while the bride sits in front of him, with her face to the east, he holds her hand while the following Rig ved ic mantra is recited:

I take thy hand in mine, yearning for happiness I ask thee, to live with me, as thy husband Till both of us, with age, grow old

Know this, as I declare, that the Gods Bhaga, Aryama, Savita and Purandhi, have bestowed thy person, upon me that I may fulfill, my Dharmas of the householder, with thee

This I am, That art thou The Sāman I, the Ŗc thou The Heavens I, the Earth thou

In Punjabi and Gujarati weddings this step is called Hast-Milap (literally, "meeting of hands"). The whole ceremony was timed around an auspicious time (Mauhurat) for this step and a few decades ago the wedding invitation would even list the time when this event was going to take place.

Saptapadi – short form
The Saptapadi (Sanskrit "seven steps"/"seven feet"; sometimes called Saat Phere: "seven rounds" ) is the most important ritual of Vedic Hindu weddings, and represents the legal element of the Hindu marriage ceremony. The couple conduct seven circuits of the Holy Fire (Agni), which is considered a witness to the vows they make to each other. In some regions, a piece of clothing or sashes worn by the bride and groom are tied together for this ritual. Elsewhere, the groom holds the bride's right hand in his own right hand. Each circuit of the consecrated fire is led by either the bride or the groom, varying by community and region. Usually, the bride leads the groom in the first circuit. In North India, the first six circuits are led by the bride, and the final one by the groom. In Central India and Suriname, the bride leads the first three or four circuits. With each circuit, the couple makes a specific vow to establish some aspect of a happy relationship and household for each other.

In some South Indian weddings, after each saying a mantra at each of the seven steps, the couple say these words together:

 * "Now let us make a vow together. We shall share love, share the same food, share our strengths, share the same tastes. We shall be of one mind, we shall observe the vows together. I shall be the Samaveda, you the Rigveda, I shall be the Upper World, you the Earth; I shall be the Sukhilam, you the Holder – together we shall live and beget children, and other riches; come thou, O beautiful maiden!"

In North Indian weddings, the bride and the groom say the following words after completing the seven steps:
 * We have taken the Seven Steps. You have become mine forever. Yes, we have become partners. I have become yours. Hereafter, I cannot live without you. Do not live without me. Let us share the joys. We are word and meaning, united. You are thought and I am sound. May the night be honey-sweet for us. May the morning be honey-sweet for us. May the earth be honey-sweet for us. May the heavens be honey-sweet for us. May the plants be honey-sweet for us. May the sun be all honey for us. May the cows yield us honey-sweet milk. As the heavens are stable, as the earth is stable, as the mountains are stable, as the whole universe is stable, so may our union be permanently settled.

Saptapadi – long form
The long form of Saptapadi starts with a preface announced by the priest, introducing a series of vows the groom and bride make to each other, as follows. With the completion of the seventh step the two become husband and wife.

The world of men and women, united in the bond of marriage by Saptapadi, to further promote the joy of life, together listen with triumph.
 * Priest's preface

Groom's vow: ''Oh!, you who feeds life-sustaining food, nourish my visitors, friends, parents and offsprings with food and drinks. Oh! beautiful lady, I, as a form of Vishnu, take this first step with you for food.'' Bride's vow: ''Yes, whatever food you earn with hard work, I will safeguard it, prepare it to nourish you. I promise to respect your wishes, and nourish your friends and family as well.''
 * Step 1

Groom's vow: ''Oh!, thoughtful and beautiful lady, with a well managed home, with purity of behavior and thought, you will enable us to be strong, energetic and happy. Oh! beautiful lady, I, as Vishnu, take this second step with you for the strength of body, character and being.'' Bride's vow: ''Yes, I will manage the home according to my ability and reason. Together, I promise, to keep a home that is healthy, strength and energy giving.''
 * Step 2

Groom's vow: ''Oh!, skillful and beautiful lady, I promise to devote myself to earning a livelihood by fair means, to discuss, and let you manage and preserve our wealth. Oh! dear lady, I, as Vishnu form, cover this third step with you to thus prosper in our wealth.'' Bride's vow: ''Yes, I join you in managing our income and expenses. I promise to seek your consent, as I manage our wealth, fairly earned, so it grows and sustains our family.''
 * Step 3

Groom's vow: ''Oh!, dear lady, I promise to trust your decisions about the household and your choices; I promise to dedicate myself to help our community prosper, the matters outside the house. This shall bring us respect. Oh! my lady, I, as Vishnu, take this fourth step with you to participate in our world.'' Bride's vow: Yes, I promise to strive to make the best home for us, anticipate and provide necessary things for your worldly life, and for the happiness of our family.
 * Step 4

Groom's vow: ''Oh!, lady of skill and pure thoughts, I promise to consult with you and engage you in the keep of our cows, our agriculture and our source of income; I promise to contribute to our country. It shall win us future. Oh! my skilled lady, I, as Vishnu form, take this fifth step with you to together grow our farms and cattle.'' Bride's vow: ''Yes, I promise to participate and protect the cattle, our agriculture and business. They are a source of yoghurt, milk, ghee, and income, all useful for our family, necessary for our happiness.''
 * Step 5

Groom's vow: ''Oh!, lovely lady, I seek you and only you, to love, to have children, to raise a family, to experience all the seasons of life. Oh! my lovely lady, I, as Vishnu, take this sixth step with you to experience every season of life.'' Bride's vow: ''Feeling one with you, with your consent, I will be the means of your enjoyment of all the senses. Through life's seasons, I will cherish you in my heart. I will worship you and seek to complete you.''
 * Step 6

Groom's vow: ''Oh friends!, allow us to cover the seventh step together, this promise, our Saptapad-friendship. Please be my constant wife.'' Bride's vow: ''Yes, today, I gained you, I secured the highest kind of friendship with you. I will remember the vows we just took and adore you forever sincerely with all my heart.''
 * Step 7

Vakdaanam
This step is a part of Kanya Varanam, where the groom-to-be (brahmachari ) sends two elders on his behalf to the father of a girl whom he wishes to marry. The elders convey the message of the brahmachari and ask for the daughter's hand. The two mantras in the form of brahmachari's appeal to intercede on his behalf come from Rg 10.32.1 ("pra sugmantha...") and 10.85.23. The first mantra begs the elders to proceed and return quickly with success back from their mission on his behalf. The second mantram ("anruksharaa Rjava:...") asks for the gods' blessings for the elders' safe journey to the house of the father of the would-be-bride. The mantra prays to Aryama and Bhaga for a marriage full of harmony. The father accedes to the request of the elders and the resulting agreement for betrothal (formal engagement to be married; engagement.)is known as vaak daanam.

Vara Prekshanam
In this ritual, the bridegroom and the bride look at each other formally for the first time. The bridegroom worries about any doshas (defects) that the bride might have and prays to the gods Varuna, Brihaspati, Indra and Surya to remove every defect and to make her fit for harmonious and long marriage life blessed with progeny and happiness (mantra: Rg 10.85.44). The bride groom recites the mantra and wipes the eyebrows of the bride with a blade of darbha grass, to symbolize the removal of defects. The darbha grass is thrown behind the bride at the conclusion of this ceremony. The Bridegroom shall stand facing the east. The Bride shall stand facing the north. The bride (offering the seat or Asana), shall address the bridegroom as follows:

The bride: AUM, The noble one may accept and take the seat.

The bridegroom: AUM, I am taking my seat. (ॐ प्रातिग्रहनामी)

The bride shall take her seat to the right of the bridegroom. The bridegroom performs the Achamana and Angasparsha with water.

All Hindu religious ceremonies begin with two observances, namely Achaman or sipping a small quantity of water and angasparsha or touching one's limbs with one's right hand middle two fingers with a little water. Achaman is purificatory and conducive to peaceful attitude of mind. Angasparsha is intended to pray for physical strength and alertness. Achaman and Angasparsha are performed with the aid of Mantras.

Ardhāsana ceremony
This ritual originates from South India and places the groom and bride welcoming their respective families together to witness the exchange of testimonies accompanied with a simultaneous exchange of rings' or necklaces'. The groom and bride then sit next to each other making prayers to seek the blessings of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva for eternal happiness for themselves and their families.

Madhuparka ceremony
Holding with his left hand a cup of Madhuparka (composed of honey, curd and ghee or clarified butter), after removing the cover and looking at the Madhuparka,

The bridegroom says: May the breeze be sweet as honey; may the streams flow full of honey and may the herbs and plants be laden with honey for us!

May the nights be honey-sweet for us; may the mornings be honey-sweet for us and may the heavens be honey-sweet for us!

May the plants be honey-sweet for us; may the sun be all honey for us and may the cows yield us honey-sweet milk!

"Honey-sweet", in this case, means pleasant, advantageous, and conducive to happiness. The bridegroom shall pour out the Madhuparka into three cups and then partake a little of it from each of the cups reciting the following Mantra:

The bridegroom: The honey is the sweetest and the best. May I have food as sweet and health-giving as this honey and may I be able to relish it!

Presentation of a ceremonial cow
The bride's father symbolically offers to the bridegroom a cow as a present. The cow is regarded as a symbol of the deity Kamadhenu. In olden times sons-in-law received real cows as gifts, since that was the most precious asset with which a newly wedded couple could start life. This part of the tradition has been preserved by a symbolical presentation. At the conclusion of the first part of the wedding ceremony, it is customary to present gifts to the bride. The bridegroom presents the bride with gifts of clothing and jewellery thereby acknowledging his lifelong duty to provide her with the necessities of life.

The father of the bride, offering to the bridegroom the present of a cow, a finger-ring or some other suitable article says:

The father of the bride: AUM, (Please) accept these presents.

The bridegroom: AUM, I accept (these presents).

Mangalasnanam and the wearing of the wedding clothes by the bride
Five Veda mantras are recited to sanctify the bride in preparation for the subsequent stages of the marriage. This aspect of the marriage is known as mangalasnanam. The sun god (Surya), water god (Varuna), and other gods are invoked to purify the bride in preparation for a harmonious married life. Next, the bride wears the marriage clothes to the accompaniment of additional Veda mantras. The bridegroom then ties a darbha rope around the waist of the bride and leads her to the place, where the sacred fire is located for conducting the rest of the marriage ceremony. The bride and the groom sit on a new mat in front of the fire. The groom recites three mantras which invoke Soma, Gandharva and Agni to confer strength, beauty, and youth on the bride.

Mangalya Dharanam
There is no Veda Mantram for tying the mangalasutram (auspicious thread) around the neck of the bride by the groom. The latter takes the mangala sutram in his hands and recites the following verse:

 * Maangalyam tantunaanena mama jeevana hetunaa:

kanThe bandhaami subhage twam jeeva saradaam satam ||

This is a sacred thread. This is essential for my long life. I tie this around your neck, O maiden having many auspicious attributes! May you live happily for a hundred years (with me).

As soon as the groom ties the knot, the family members, friends, and audience throw flower petals and rice grains, for a celebratory visual effect and to bless the couple.

Pradhaana Homam or Jayadi Homamam
After sapta padi, the couple take their seat on the western side of the sacred fire and conduct pradhaana homam. During the conductance of this homam, the bride must place her right hand on her husband's body so that she gets the full benefit of the homam through symbolic participation. Sixteen mantras are recited to the accompaniment of pouring a spoon of clarified butter into the sacred fire at the end of recitation of each of the mantras. These mantras salute Soma, Gandharva, Agni, Indra, Vayu, the Aswini Devas, Savita, Brihaspati, Viswa Devas and Varuna for blessing the marriage and beseeches them to confer long wedded life, health, wealth, children and freedom from all kinds of worries. One prayer—the sixth mantra—has a sense of humor and provides deep insight into human psychology. The text of this mantra is: "daSaasyam putraan dehi, patim ekaadaSam kRti". Here, the groom asks Indra to bless the couple with ten children and requests that he be blessed to become the eleventh child of his bride in his old age.

Ashmarohanam (stepping on the grinding stone)
After pradhaana homam, the husband holds the right toe of his wife and lifts her leg and places it on a flat granite grinding stone known as "ammi" in Tamil. The ammi stands at the right side of the sacred fire. The husband recites a Veda mantra when he places the right foot of his wife on the ammi: May you stand on this firm stone. May you be rock-firm during your stay on this grinding stone. May you stand up to those who oppose you while you carry out your time-honored responsibilities as a wife sanctioned by the Vedas and tradition. May you develop tolerance to your enemies and put up a fair fight to defend your legitimate rights as the head of the household in a firm manner, equal to the steady strength of this grinding stone. Some traditions mention to wear two silver ring on the either toes of bride by the bridegroom at this time.

Laaja Homam
After ammi stepping, a ceremony of doing homam with parched rice (laja) is conducted. Here, the wife cups her hands and the brothers of the bride fill the cupped hands with parched rice. The husband adds a drop of ghee to the parched rice and recites five Veda mantras. At the end of each of the recitation, the parched rice is thrown into the sacred fire as haves (offering) to Agni. Through these mantras, the wife prays for long life for her husband and for a marriage filled with peace and harmony. At the end of the laaja homam, the husband unties the darbha belt around the waist of his wife with another mantra. The husband states through this mantra that he unites his wife and ties her now with the bonds of Varuna and invites her to be a full partner in his life to enjoy the blessings of wedded life.

Griha Pravesam
This ceremony relates to the journey of the wife to her husband's home. The husband carries the sacred fire (home agni) in an earthenware vessel during this journey home. There are many Veda mantras associated with this journey. These mantras pray to the appropriate Vedic gods to remove all obstacles that one can experience in a journey. The bride is requested to become the mistress of the house and is reminded of her important role among the relatives of her husband. After reaching her new home, she puts her right foot first in the house and recites the following Veda mantra: "I enter this house with a happy heart. May I give birth to children, who observe the path of righteousness (dharma)! May this house that I enter today be prosperous forever and never be deficient in food. May this house be populated by people of virtue and pious thoughts."

Praavisya Homam
After griha pravesam, a fire ritual known as praavisya homam is performed by the couple to the accompaniment of thirteen Veda mantras from the Rg Veda. Jayaadi homam is also part of the praavisya homam. This homam offers the salutation of the newly married couple to Agni Deva and asks for strength and nourishment to discharge the duties of a grihasthas for the next one hundred years. After that, the bride shifts her position from the right side of her husband to his left side. At that time, once again, she recites a Veda mantra invoking the gods for blessings of children and wealth to perform the duties of a householder.

At the end of the above homam, a child is placed on the lap of the bride and she offers a fruit to the child, while reciting a prescribed Veda mantra. Yet another mantram asks the assembled guests to bless the bride and then retire to their own individual homes peacefully. During the first evening of the stay in her new home, the couple see the stars known as Dhruva (pole star) and Arundhati. The husband points out the pole star and prays for the strength and stability of the household through a Veda mantra. Next, the husband points out the Arundhati star to his wife and describes to her the story of Arundhati and her legendary chastity.

The rich and meaningful ceremony of the Hindu marriage (Kalyana Mahotsavam of the temples) is thus carried out in concert with sacred Veda Mantras. The bride and bridegroom should enunciate clearly the Veda mantras and reflect on their meanings during the different stages of the marriage ceremony. This way, they can be sure of a long, happy and prosperous married life and play their appropriate role in society to the fullest extent. Srinivasa Kalyanam is performed in the temples to remind us of these age old Vedic traditions behind a Hindu marriage.

lokA: samastA: sukhino bhavantu

sarva mangaLaani santu

Nishekam
It is the samskara which is done before the couple enter to their bedroom. Nishekam means first conjugal bliss by the couple. In South India they do Nishekam on a suitable date according to jyotisha. Whereas in North India and East India they do it on the fourth day from the marriage. Paraskara Grihya Sutram of Shukla Yajurveda mentions to conduct it on the fourth night in the prescribed room of the couple. It's otherwise called Chaturthi Karma.

Rituals performed
According to V. Sadagopan, the rituals are as follows.

Kanyadana
The word 'kanyādana' is made of two parts, 'kanyā' meaning unmarried girl and 'dāna' which means 'charity'. The officiating priest chants appropriate verses in Sanskrit. The people in the audience (the public) are now notified that the parents have willingly expressed their wish and consent by requesting the groom to accept their daughter as his bride. As soon as the groom indicates his acceptance the bride's parents place their daughter's right hand into the bridegroom's right hand. The parents now bestow their blessings on both the bride and the groom and pray to the Lord to shower His choicest blessings on them.

The father of the bride, placing her right hand on the right hand of the bridegroom, says:

The father of the bride: Be pleased to accept hand of my daughter (name of the bride) of the Gotra (here the surname of the family).

The bridegroom: AUM, I do accept.

The bridegroom makes an Offering of the garment and the scarf to the bride to wear. The bridegroom wears the garments and the scarf offered by the parents of the bride. Then facing each other The bride and the bridegroom speak as follows:

Ye learned people assembled at this sacred ceremony know it for certain that we two hereby accept each other as companions for life and agree to live together most cordially as husband and wife. May the hearts of us both be blended and beat in unison. May we love each other like the very breath of our lives. As the all-pervading God sustains the universe, so may we sustain each other. As a preceptor loves his disciple, so may we love each other steadfastly and faithfully. - RigVeda X.85.47

Addressing the bride, the bridegroom says: Distant though we were, one from the other, we stand now united. May we be of one mind and spirit! Through the grace of God, may the eyes radiate benevolence. Be thou my shield. May thou have a cheerful heart and a smiling face. May thou be a true devotee of God and mother of heroes. May thou have at heart the welfare of all living beings! - Rig Veda X.85.44

The bride: I pray that henceforth I may follow thy path. May my body be free from disease and defect and may I ever enjoy the bliss of your companionship!

Vivaha Homa (sacred fire ritual)
Vivaha-homa is also called the "sacred fire ceremony". All solemn rites and ceremonies commence with the performance of Homa (sacred fire ceremony) among the followers of Vedic religion. The idea is to begin all auspicious undertakings in an atmosphere of purity and spirituality. This atmosphere is created by the burning of fragrant herbs and ghee and by the recitation of suitable Mantras.

The Achaman and Angasparsha are performed for the second time. The bride also participates.

The three Achaman mantras involve sipping of a little water three times.

The seven Angasparsha mantras involve touching water with the right hand middle two fingers apply the water to various limbs first to the right side and then the left side as follows: Mouth, Nostrils, Eyes, Ears, Arms, Thighs, Sprinkling water all over the body. Vivah samskara is a marriage not only between two bodies but also between two souls.

Pani Grahanam (acceptance of the hand)
The bridegroom rising from his seat and facing the bride, shall raise her right hand with his left hand and then clasping it says:

I clasp thy hand and enter into the holy state of matrimony so that we may be blessed with prosperity and noble progeny. Mayst thou live with me happily throughout life! Through the grace of the all-mighty Lord, who is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe and in the presence of this august assemblage, thou art being given away in marriage so that we may together rightly perform our duties as householders.

With all my strength and resources, I have clasped thy hand; and thus united, we shall together follow the path of virtue. Thou art my lawfully wedded wife and I am thy lawfully wedded husband. God, the protector and sustainer of all, has given thee to me. From today, it devolves upon me to protect and maintain thee. Blessed with children, mayst thou live happily with me as thy husband for the full span of human life (a hundred years).

Following the divine law and the words of wisdom uttered by the sages, may we make a good couple and may God vouchsafe unto us a shining life of virtue and happiness.

As God nourishes and sustains all creatures through His great forces like the sun, the moon, the earth, the air etc., so may He bless my wife with healthy and virtuous progeny and may you all assembled here bless her!
 * I accept thee as my partner for life.
 * I will not keep away even mentally anything from thee.
 * I will share with thee all I enjoy.
 * We will persevere in the path of virtue, surmounting all obstacles.

Pratijñā Karana (solemn vows)
The bridegroom taking the palm of the bride into his hand helps her to rise and then they both shall walk round the altar, the bride leading. Then facing the east take the solemn vows:

Ashmarohanam or Shilarohanam (stepping on the stone)
This ceremony is referred to as Ashmarohanam or Shilarohanam (Ashma or Shila: stone ; Arohan: stepping upon). In it, the mother of the bride assists her to step onto a stone and counsels her to prepare herself for a new life. The stone signifies strength and trust. A married couple is likely to encounter ups and downs, joys and sorrows, prosperity and adversity, sickness and health. In spite of the difficulties facing them, they are enjoined to remain steadfast and true to each other.

The bride places her right foot on the slab (stone), assisted by her mother or her brother. The priest recites a Mantra from the Atharva Veda (AV II.13.4)

Laja Homah (puffed-rice offerings)
Laja means parched rice or barley like popcorn. The bride shall place the palms of her hands over those of the bridegroom and make three offerings (ahutis) of parched rice soaked in ghee (clarified butter).

The bride:
 * I adore God, the unifier of hearts. Now that I am leaving my parents' home for my husband's, I pray that He may keep us perpetually united!
 * With these offerings I pray for Long life for my husband and for the prosperity of all our relations!
 * (Addressing her husband) In making these offerings for your prosperity I once again pray that God may bless this union of our hearts!

Agniparinayana, Parikrama, Pradakshina, or Mangal Phera (circumambulation of the sacred fire)

This is an auspicious and important part of the marriage ceremony. It consists in walking around the sacred fire (clockwise) three or four (less often five, but sometimes seven) times. This aspect of the ceremony and the one that follows, namely Saptapadi (seven steps) - constitute the most important part, in as much as it legalises the marriage according to Hindu custom and tradition. These two aspects of the marriage ceremony establish an indissoluble matrimonial bond between the couple.

In many communities, the saptapadi and agniparinayana have been merged into one ritual; and hence they circumambulate the fire seven times (saat phere).

In the first three rounds the bride leads the Groom as they circle together around the sacred fire. From the fourth round, the Groom leads the bride around the sacred fire.

In each round around the sacred fire, an appropriate mantra is recited which expresses noble sentiments in relation to their future matrimonial life. Each round culminates in both the bride and the bridegroom placing offerings or ahutis of fried rice in the sacred fire. The Hindu religion emphasises enjoyment of life as well as the discharging of family, social and national responsibilities.

During the first three rounds, God's blessings and help are sought, loyalty to each other is emphasised and a promise to keep in mind the well-being and care of the future children is made.

In the last four rounds (led by the Groom) they promise that they will lead their life according to the tenets of the Hindu religion, namely Satya and Dharma or Truth and devotion to duty; that they will always ensure that the bridegroom can rely on her to carry out her family, religious and household duties; that they will always support each other in all their endeavours; and that they forever belong to each other and will remain friends forever.

The bridegroom then places his hand on the bride's head and states that henceforth she will be his wife and he will shield her against any danger or harm.

At the end of the four rounds they shall exchange seats, the bride accepting her seat to the left of the bridegroom (vaamaang).

Saptapadi (seven steps)
The ends of their garments (the bridegroom's scarf and upper garment of the bride) are tied together by the priest (signifying marriage knot). Then both shall stand facing the north. The bridegroom shall place his right hand upon the right shoulder of the bride.

They shall take the first step in the north easterly direction.

In taking these seven steps, the right foot shall always lead and the left foot be brought forward in line with it. Uncooked grains of rice (about a small handful) are placed in a line at equal distance at seven places. The bride and the groom take seven steps together, stepping upon first mound of rice with the right foot as the priest recites a mantra. Then stepping upon the second mount of rice with the right foot as the priest recites a mantra. (All seven steps are done the same way).
 * May the first step lead to food that is both nourishing and pure.
 * May the second step lead to strength (at the physical, emotional, intellectual and spiritual levels).
 * May the third step lead to prosperity.
 * May the fourth step lead to all round happiness.
 * May the fifth step lead to progeny (noble and virtuous children).
 * May the sixth step lead to long life.
 * May the seventh step lead to bondage (through harmony).

The bridegroom says: Having completed the seven steps, be thou my lifelong companion. Mayst thou be my associate and helper in successful performance of the duties that now devolve upon me as a householder. May we be blessed with many children who may live the full duration of human life!

After the completion of the seven steps ceremony, the couple (with knots tied to each other) take their seats. The wife now takes her rightful place on the left side of her husband as the marriage is now religiously solemnized in its entirety. Now the couple are husband and wife. The husband garlands the wife and she in turn garlands her husband.

Abhishekam (sprinkling of water)
The priest (or a brother of the newly wedded wife) shall sprinkle water on the foreheads of the bride and the groom. The priest recites mantras from the Rig Veda (RV X.9.1/2/3) during the sprinkling of water.

Surya Darshanam Dhyaanam Va (meditating on the sun)
Looking at or mentally visualising the sun (Surya), to give them power to lead a creative, useful and meaningful life.

The bride and the bridegroom together pray: O God, who art the illuminator of the sun, may we, through thy grace live for a hundred years, hear for a hundred years, and speak for a hundred years. And may we never be dependent upon anybody. May we likewise live even beyond a hundred years! -Rig Veda, VII. 66. 16)

Hṛdaya sparsham (touching the heart)
Touching the heart of the bride, the bridegroom says: May I have hearty co-operation from these in the performance of my duties. May thou be of one mind with me. May thou be consentient to my speech. May the Lord of creation unite thee to me!

The bride: May I have hearty co-operation from these in the performance of my duties. May thou be of one mind with me. May thou be consentient to my speech. May the Lord of creation unite thee to me!

Dhruva Dhyaanam Darshanam Va (meditating on the Pole star and the Arundhati star)
The Pole Star is stationary and fixed in its position, likewise the couple is expected to be steadfast and firm in fulfilling their vows and responsibilities.

The bride: Just as the star Arundhati is attached to the star Vasishtha, so may I be ever firmly attached to my husband! Placing his hand upon the bride's forehead

The bridegroom: As the heavens are permanently stable, as the earth is permanently stable, as these mountains are permanently stable, and as the entire universe is permanent stable, so may my wife be permanently settled in our family! -Rig Veda X.173.4

(Addressing the bride): Thou are the Pole star; I see in thee stability and firmness. Mayst thou ever be steadfast in thy affection for me. The great God has united thee with me. Mayst thou live with me, blessed with children, for a hundred years!

Anna Praashanam (partaking of food)
In the last symbolic rite the couple make offerings of food with chantings of Vedic Havan Mantras (oblations of food in the Sacred fire). Having done that, the couple feed a morsel of food to each other from the residue of the offerings. This being the symbolic expression of mutual love and affection.

Aashirvadah (blessing)
Placing his hand upon the forehead of the bride, the bridegroom says:

Ye men and women present here, behold this virtuous bride possessed of high attainments, and before ye disperse, give her your blessings! All the people present shall pronounce the following blessings upon the couple.
 * 1) O Lord, may this couple be prosperous!
 * 2) O Lord, may this couple live in perpetual happiness!
 * 3) O Lord, may this couple be ever infused with love for each other. May this couple be blessed with children and grandchildren and live in the best of homes for the full period of their lives!
 * 4) May you two live here together. May you never be parted. May you enjoy the full span of human life in the delightful company of your happy sons and grandsons!

Om Shantih, Shantih, Shantih.

Rituals by region
Many Hindu weddings start with the milne (meeting) and swagatam (welcome) ceremony. This ritual is where the baraat (groom's procession party) arrives at the bride's home or the location where the bride is and marriage will be celebrated. The baraat typically includes dancing and joyous members of groom's family, relatives and friends. On their arrival, there is a ritual where key persons from the groom's side and bride's side are introduced to each other. The introduction is typically followed by jai mala (garland exchange between bride and groom) and a reception that serves food and drinks. Many other rituals and ceremonies are sometimes found in Hindu weddings, such as  madhuparka,  vivaah-homa, agni-parinayana,  asmarohana,  laja homa, abhishek, anna-prashashan, and aashir-vadah. All these ceremonies are carried out at the wedding location, typically at or near the bride's home. These additional rituals include the participation of the brothers, sisters, maternal/paternal relatives, guardians, or friends of the bride.

In some parts of India, such as Gujarat and Northern India, a laja homa ritual called mangal pherā is performed where the couple make four circles around holy fire. It follows hasta milap (meeting of hands of the couple), but precedes saptapadi. The first three circles is led by the groom, and it represents three of four goals of life considered important in Hindu life – Dharma, Artha, Kama. The fourth circle is led by bride and it represents the fourth goal of life – Moksha. After saptapadi, as hymns are being recited, the groom performs māņg sindoor ritual where a saffron or red color powder is marked into the parting of the wife's hair. Instead of circling the fire and other steps, the rituals and ceremonies may be performed symbolically, such as stepping on small heaps of rice or throwing grains into the fire.

Some rituals involve rice or other grains, seeds and pastes. In these ceremonies, rice is thrown at the bride, groom or they kick a container containing the grain. Rituals include darshan, where the newly married couple are met, blessed and greeted by family and friends of the bride and groom.

After the Hindu wedding is complete, the bride leaves for groom's home via groom's car. In groom's car, bride and groom sit together, and groom's younger brother drives the car. Bride's sisters also come with groom's family, when they arrive to groom house where Hindu family members of the groom welcome the newly wedded couple in a ritual known as grihapravesa (home coming/entry). This ceremony typically requires participation of the mother, father, brothers, and sisters, or other guardians of the groom.

Ancient literature suggests the Hindu couple spent time with each other, but delayed the consummation for at least three nights following the wedding. Some scholars have proposed the observance of this rite in the past – known as chaturthikarma – "the rite performed on the fourth day of marriage". Chaturthikarma is followed by most of South Indian communities as a possible basis for the validity of a marriage. Other scholars suggest saptapadi and regionally customary wedding rituals, not consummation, defines legal validity of a Hindu marriage. The Hindu Marriage Act of 1955, Article 7, is consistent with the latter. Chaturthikarma is not a common practice in Hindu communities.

In modern Hindu families, the couple proceed to honeymoon after grihapravesa.

Rituals in Rajasthan
It comprises a ceremony for the Tilak (engagement), the Ban (starting of the wedding ceremony), the Mel (the community feast), the Nikasi (the departure of the Bridegroom party for the wedding), the Sehla, and the Dhukav (reception of the wedding party at the bride's place by her parents). Solemnisation of the wedding is referred to as Fera.

A sherwani also known as Achkan is normally worn by the bridegroom along with his own family form of a turban. He keeps a sword in his left hand during the ceremony. A bride wears a Lahanga, Odhani, Kurti or Poshak. The ornaments worn by a Rajput Bride are the Rakhdi on her forehead, the Sheesphul as headgear, the aad as a thick neck hanging, the Baju above her elbow (on arms), the "poonchis" and "bangdis" as thick golden bangles in arms, "hathfools" on hands and the Pajeb as anklets.

The wedding dress and the "aad" is gifted by the groom's side to the bride. The barat at the time of "samela" presents them in the "padla" ( a collection of many lahanga, jewelry items, accessories, make-up kits, shoes etc.) for the bride.

Rituals in Bengal
Many types of rituals are celebrated in Bengali Hindu wedding. These include Patipatra, Pankhil, Ashirvad, Aiburo  Bhat, Dadhi Mangal, Gaye Halud, Shankha Kangkan, Ganga Baran, Jalsoi, Bar Baran, Satpak, Shubhadrishti, Mala Badal, Kanya Sampradan, Anjali, Sindoor Daan, Basi Biye,  Basar Jagaran, Kanakanjali, Badhu Baran, Kalratri, Bhat Kapor, Bou Bhat, Phulshajya etc.

Rituals in Nepal
In the Hindu culture of Nepal, marriage rituals are done by the Chhetri in a sixteen step process that centers on the household. The household is important during the marriage ritual because it is the center of the concept of mandala; the Chhetri's homes are considered to be domestic mandalas and so have roles as householders. The act of marriage brings men and women into the householder role.

Marriage is the most important rite of passage for the Chhetris and is one of the most serious. Women move from their houses to the home of the groom after marriage. The ceremony is done in a precise and careful manner as to not bring bad luck to the families of the bride and groom; certain traditions, for example no one seeing the face of the bride until the end, are followed in order to ensure future prosperity. Prior to the marriage ceremony, there is no kinship between families of the bride and groom and the bride must be a virgin. The marriage ceremony consists of a series of rites that are performed over a two-day period between the houses of the bride and the groom. Within each home the enclosed area in the courtyard (jagya) and the kitchen are used the most; the jagya and the kitchen are considered the most important parts of the domestic mandala structure because it is where rice (an important part of the Chhetri's culture) is prepared and consumed. At the end of the ceremony is the establishment of the role of the wife and husband in the husband's home.

The first step in the marriage ceremony is called Purbanga. In the kitchen of their homes, the bride and the groom worship the seven Mother Goddesses as so to pay respect to their ancestors and ask for peace. In the second, third, and fourth step, the groom is then blessed by his mother and is taken outside to his jagya where his father and procession (janti) carry him and bring gifts for the bride to her house in a ceremony called dulähä anmäune. In the fifth step as the groom waits before the house of the bride, gifts of clothes and food are placed around the jagya; the father of the bride then places red paste on the groom's forehead indicating that he is no longer an outsider to his family. The sixth step is the performance of the Barani or welcoming for the groom and his janti as they enter the jagya. The father purifies the body of the groom using panchämrit (nectar from five pure liquids). A small feast is then held for the groom as the next steps in the marriage continue.

After the small feast, the marriage process for the bride begins. The seventh step takes place in the kitchen of the bride where the process of kanya dan starts; the bride's parents give their daughter in marriage to her groom thereby allowing the bride to be a part of the groom's lineage and making the father's lineage secondary. After they wash their feet they dress in red and, in the eighth step, sit beside in each other in the jagya. They perform post-marriage rites as they make sacrificial offerings to the fire in the center of the jagya. During these rites the bride and groom perform tasks such as placing red powder in the hair of the bride and the bride eats leftover food of the groom and at the end the now husband gives his wife a personal name for which she is to be called by.

After the post-marriage ceremony, the married couple being to leave the bride's home. In the ninth step, the husband and wife return to the kitchen of the wife and worship their ancestors and the seven Mother Goddesses. In the tenth, eleventh, and twelfth step, the couple leave the wife's house as she is given a garland from her parents; the wife and husband enter the jagya and are then escorted out riding on palanquins as they return to their permanent home of the husband. The thirteenth step beings once they enter the jagya of the groom and his virgin sisters welcome the wife in a ceremony called arti syäl. They unveil the bride and adorn her with flower garlands and sprinkle puffed rice on her (a sign of prosperity). The fourteenth step is completed once the bride promises gifts to the sisters; she then moves on the fifteenth step where she steps on piles of rice in a path toward the kitchen. The final step is a series of rites, the first of which is the bride worshiping the ancestors and deities of the husband; she then demonstrates her skills in handling rice to the husband's mother and sisters and then they entwine her hair. Finally, the mother unveils the bride again in front of the husband and in a ceremony called khutta dhog, the bride places the foot of the mother on her forehead thereby ending the marriage ceremony.

Wedding and married life in Hinduism
While there are many rituals in Hinduism, such as those at birth and deaths of loved ones, the Hindu wedding is the most important and extensive personal ritual an adult Hindu undertakes in his or her life. Typical Hindu families spend significant effort and financial resources to prepare and celebrate weddings.

Economics
In 2008, the Indian wedding market was estimated to be $31 billion a year. Various sources estimate India celebrates about 10 million weddings per year, and over 80% of these are Hindu weddings. The average expenditures exceed US$3,000 per wedding. Another $30 billion per year is spent on jewelry in India, with jewelry for weddings being the predominant market.

Law
In India, where most Hindus live, the laws relating to marriage differ by religion. According to the Hindu Marriage Act of 1955, passed by the Parliament of India, for all legal purposes, all Hindus of any caste, creed or sect, Sikh, Buddhists and Jains are deemed Hindus and can intermarry. By the Special Marriage Act, 1954, a Hindu can marry a person who is not Hindu, employing any ceremony, provided specified legal conditions are fulfilled. By Section 7 of Hindu Marriage Act, and tradition, no Hindu marriage is binding and complete before the seventh step of the saptapadi ritual, in presence of fire, by the bride and the groom together. In some cases, such as South Indian Hindu marriages, this is not required as the saptapadi is not performed.

Married life
A Vedic sage emphasized that the basis of a happy and fulfilling married life is the presence of unity, intimacy and love between a husband and wife physically, mentally and spiritually. Hence the wife is considered to be the Ardhangani of the husband as per Hindu tradition. Marriage is not for self-indulgence, but is considered to be a life-long social and spiritual responsibility. Married life is considered an opportunity for two people to grow as life partners into soulmates.

title: Hindu wedding


text:
Talk:Proline

Imino acid
Why isn't proline an imino acid?

It is... Technichally proteins in the human body are made from 19 typical amino acids and one typical imino acid along with some other infrequently used amino acids. 132.162.240.58

We should probably correct the article to show that then. According to "Molecular Biology of the Cell, 4th edition" by Alberts et al., page 133, proline is indeed an imino acid.Canadian popcan 04:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

According to the IUPAC, Proline IS NOT an Imino Acid or an Amino Acid. It's an azaalkanoic acid. I've modified the article to reflect that.

http://goldbook.iupac.org/goldbook/I02959.html Morwan

Proline is an amino aicd. I.e. it is an amine and it is an acid. It is a secondary amine and it is cyclic, but it is stil an amine - NOT and imine. IUPAC accepts the use of the term "amino acid" and thus it is not necessary to use the (quite uncommon) word "azaalkanoic aicd." 130.225.102.1 (talk) 10:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

 * If you want to be a bit more precise, it's a cyclic (alpha-)amino acid. Samer (talk) 17:38, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Energy drinks
The article currently includes a rather non-encyclopedic blurb about how for some unknown reason, Proline is included as an ingredient in some energy drinks. I am curious about this (as I chug down my Sobe fruit punch)... can anyone add any information to that, to make it more informative? --Norville 14:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Whats really weird about the energy drink citation is that last I checked, you ought not need to look any further than the ingredient label to prove such a thing. Perhaps the person who included the blurb was confused by why proline is in an energy drink in the first place? My feeling, and it is only a feeling, is that a likely explanation is located right above the blurb in question: proline has a flavor! Zaphraud 19:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

In bacteria, proline can enter the Krebb's cycle and provide a secondary energy source by first being converted to glutamate. In animals, the availability of proline to the Krebb's cycle is restricted by slow transport across the mitochondrial membrane. So, although Sobe thinks they are providing an energy source, it would only be so if you were a bacteria. Kevin.stafford 16:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)kevin.stafford April 2007

Understanding
I am a graduate student of biochemistry, and even I had trouble understanding some of the statements regarding proline - particularly the last section before the energy drink blurb. I imagine that an average Wikipedia reader would not be able to understand much beyond the intro and the trivia at the end. While I am glad to see a wealth of information here, it should be at least somewhat accessible to a reader who has only cursory knowledge of biochemistry and proteins. I reworded a few sentences, added links, and added an explanation for the "X" that comes out of nowhere in the cis-trans section, but someone with more knowledge/skills could improve it further. I think this is one of the better amino acid articles, and I'd like to see it become even better. GngstrMNKY (talk) 21:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Please specify exactly what is not clear, so I can help.

Why external link have been removed?
Dear Dirk Beetstra, I would be very grateful if you could explain why you removed external link http://www.peptideguide.com/amino-acids/proline.html ? Is the following page http://www.compchemwiki.org/index.php?title=Proline more relevant than my link?

Thanks in advance! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.150.28.145 (talk) 14:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sarcosine
The statement "such as sarcosine; symbol is X, as is true for all non-standard amino acids" is incorrect. X is used in peptide/protein chemistry in two instances (1) Unknown amino acid: as in could not be determined from sequencing and (2) Variable amino acid: as in X can be any amino acid, equivalent to a wildcard character. The acceptable symbol for Sarcosine is Sar although some also consider MeGly acceptable. The X convention is properly applied later in the section. If there are no objections I'll update the section. Atomjockey (talk) 18:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

References and Conformations
There are several places were more detailed referencing is needed (IMO). Unfortunately, our access to ACS journals is rather limited. If anyone out there can get these articles, I think they could make a nice addition.

Conformational Analysis of L-Prolines in Water Aliev, A. E.; Courtier-Murias, D. J. Phys. Chem. B.; 2007; 111(50); 14034-14042. DOI: jp076729c

Conformational Studies of Polyprolines Zhong, H.; Carlson, H. A. J. Chem. Theory and Comput.; 2006; 2(2); 342-353. DOI: ct050182t

Also, there is presently no discussion of Φ, ψ angles nor of the importance of Pro in β-turns Atomjockey (talk) 18:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep journal references to a minimum, please!~
Although journal references are kinda impressive, they threaten to overwhelm Wikipedia. Also we dont want Wikipedia to become a forum for researchers to broadcast their (specialized) achievements, because that trend would be difficult to stop. Rather than highly specialized references (JPhysChem published 47148 pages last year), editors should search for the key material (e.g., on Φ, ψ angles, β-turns for proline) in textbooks and conventional reference sources where the perspective is broader and the sources are more accessible. IMHO. Journal refs might be reserved for seminal discoveries (e.g. of the amino acid).--Smokefoot (talk) 22:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Proline's role in plants
Dear Authors,

I think it would be nice to mention proline's role in plants, and stress tolerance (salt stress and draught especially)(it has quite a significant role there, so it shouldn't really be left just like this, without a word.).

Have a look at the following articles for example:

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/feb102005/424.html

http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/abstract/114/2/591

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7GJ7-4P3M21N-1&_user=546865&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000027968&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=546865&md5=2ea6499d72eceeaa4ce9b594f41c40e8

=)Please, please, do something! THANKS!!!Myrmeleon formicarius (talk) 14:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

efeeeeeeeeew abdul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.168.73.74 (talk) 15:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Solubility
The reference for proline's solubility in ethanol is a search for "methionine solubility in ethanol". Methionine is not the same compound as proline. Johnjohnston (talk) 04:44, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Cleaned up the cite. TuxLibNit (talk) 23:01, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Molecular Formula
What's the molecular formula? Eg: Phenylalanine has a chemical formula of C9H11NO2 but a molecular forumla of C6H5CH2CHCOOH ~ender 2014-10-06 5:52:AM MST — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.223.87.212 (talk • contribs) 12:55, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * for the condensed formula see here Jytdog (talk) 13:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * OP posted this on several amino acid pages; please see discussion here: Talk:Tryptophan Jytdog (talk) 14:17, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Synthesis
I was told that L-Proline can be synthesized using Knowles Asymmetric Hydrogenation. I was wondering if someone with more experience on this could please elaborate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.174.187.121 (talk) 17:05, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a scientific manual - that is very technical information that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article. You can read about that here, though: http://www.chem.wisc.edu/areas/organic/studsemin/rosen/Rosen-abs.pdf Jytdog (talk) 17:38, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

cis-trans isomerization
The article has the text "Most peptide bonds overwhelmingly adopt the trans isomer (typically 99.9% under unstrained conditions), chiefly because the amide hydrogen (trans isomer) offers less steric repulsion to the preceding Cα atom than does the following Cα atom (cis isomer)." If a citation can be given for this, then that is great. However, I think the problem is worse and that this statement is wrong. At the very least, here is one reference suggesting that it is the sidechain-sidechain interaction that favors the trans isomer of the peptide bond: https://books.google.com/books?id=2-IlMqaQyE4C&pg=PT60&lpg=PT60#v=onepage&q&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.246.34.112 (talk) 02:27, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

23 Proteinogenic amino acids?
Proteinogenic amino acid says there are 22. I'm not clear enough to tell whether there's some subtlety, but it seems to me that, unless someone can come up with what number 23 is, we should go with 22.--Wcoole (talk) 00:22, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Standardizing amino acids
There is a lot of inconsistency regarding what information is presented by the introductory paragraph. I think it would be great to standardize this information. As in have all 20 main amino acids follow a common template. Furthermore, the addition of the ionized (native biological state) of the amino acid alongside the historically represented line-angle model would provide a more factual representation of their states

Linnikh (talk) 00:05, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 03:26, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

unsourced
The following is unsourced - moving here per WP:PRESERVE

Proline is a phosphorylation marker and is commonly found right before the amino acid serine and threonine to mark them as phosphorylation spots. As a result, proline preceding these amino acids in an amino acid chain is highly evolutionarily conserved.

-- Jytdog (talk) 18:39, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Correcting the wedge & dash molecule drawing in the chembox?
The skeletal formula in the "chembox" in the article has errors. I'd like to correct it to this: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:L-proline_skeletal_formula_with_corrected_wedge_bond.png but would like a pointer to how to replace a drawing in a "chembox". The source I'm citing for this correction is this PubChem entry from the United States National Institute of Health. Merrimack (talk) 18:58, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Update: I just figured out how to do it myself, but would appreciate folks checking my work to make sure I didn't break anything. Merrimack (talk) 20:08, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Proline


text:
Talk:German cruiser Admiral Graf Spee

Untitled
I question whether the title should be changed. Graf Spee was not a 'battleship'. She was an 'Armored Ship' or 'Panzerschiff', not a 'battleship'.

 * By most english speaking countries she was referred to as a "pocket-battleship" because of here battleship size guns on a cruiser size hull. Wandavianempire (talk) 15:06, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a propaganda term, not a ship type. Also, please don't necro threads from 2005. Parsecboy (talk) 15:16, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

War Grave
This is simply a question, please don't take it as hostile in any way.

"Many German veterans do not approve of this restoration attempt, as they consider the wreck to be a war grave"

Is this true? Since Graf Spee was scuttled after the battle presumably it does not hold any bodies? Mucky Duck 09:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Men were still killed on it during the battle. User:Bonnieblueflag

Thats true, but no men died on it when it sank and thats why it's not a war grave. Anyway, in the article it says that the damage on the graf spee wasn't that bad. The ship took a direct hit in the kitchens and langsdorff was unable to feed his man if he had to make a run for it back to germany. That's severe damage to be honest... And if he had sailed for germany, he had to either lose the three cruisers (Ajax, Achilles and Cumberland) or destroy all three of em. Both options were very unlikely to succeed. DTE 19:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Not a War Grave
Here is a site that provided a bit more info on the fate of the crew after the Graf Spee was scuttled:

Feldgrau.com - research on the German armed forces 1918-1945 Panzerschiffe Admiral Graf Spee http://www.feldgrau.com/grafspee.html Created, maintained and Copyright © 1996-2006, Jason Pipes User: Unclebucky

Failed GA with invitation to renominate
I've failed this WP:GAC nomination because the article has no line citations. Please review similar good articles and resubmit when ready. In other respects this looks like it would qualify for good article status. Durova 17:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Admiral Graf Spee Cruising.jpg
Image:Admiral Graf Spee Cruising.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Admiral Graf Spee Scuttled.jpg
Image:Admiral Graf Spee Scuttled.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Successful good article nomination
I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of February 11, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

 * 1. Well written?: Yes
 * 2. Factually accurate?: Yes
 * 3. Broad in coverage?: Yes
 * 4. Neutral point of view?: Yes
 * 5. Article stability? Yes
 * 6. Images?: Fair-use with correct rationale and public domain

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations. Tim Vickers (talk) 02:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Two further suggestions:

 * "A ruse by the British encouraged the captain to think that he was out-numbered" - unclear what this ruse was.
 * Adding access dates to the website citations would be an improvement.

 * Done, thank you very much.  Socrates2008 ( Talk )   05:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

 * No problem. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Graf spee.JPG
Image:Graf spee.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"The fact that he wrapped himself in the Imperial flag before shooting himself may have been"
The statement above in the article that he used the naval salute when others used the NAZI salute, as well as his covering himself with an old flag, supports the explanation that he did not feel that doing damage (without hope of escaping), for the current German administration, was worth the probable sacrifice of most of his crew.

In general, it seems that they fought very hard for a government that inspired so little confidence, but this may be an exception.

Minor error re rangefinder?
The article refers to a recovered "gunnery range-finding telemeter". Is this an accurate description? What I see appears to me to be a range-finder itself, with the wings spanning the "base" of the rangefinder. I don't see what it has to do with telemetry. But maybe that is my ignorance. - N'Awlins Contrarian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.237.230.2 (talk) 00:15, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

WP on one meaning of telemeter: "In military parlance telemeter has the specific meaning of a device for finding the range of a target. It is also used with the meaning "rangefinder"...." Naaman Brown (talk) 19:46, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Telemeters (tele = distance, meter = measuring instrument) are optical rangefinders, example: US1062166. --Gunnar (talk) 10:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Unclear statement
''...possibly in order to prove he had not acted out of fear for his own life. The fact that he wrapped himself in the Imperial flag before shooting himself may have been a mute admission that he had not fought in the tradition and spirit of the proud commander whose name his ship bore.''

It is unclear why his use of the imperial flag gives the implication stated. This should be clarified, but it is not within my sphere.

Best wishes,

Leonard G. (talk) 03:19, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I sympathize with this point: the article's current interpretation of events would clearly be from the point of view of a loyal Nazi. I think there's much more substance to the remarks made earlier on this page, i.e. "[The fact that] he used the naval salute when others used the NAZI salute, as well as his covering himself with an old flag, supports the explanation that he did not feel that doing damage (without hope of escaping), for the current German administration, was worth the probable sacrifice of most of his crew." SteveStrummer (talk) 17:38, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Page name
This must have been asked before but I can't find it: why is this article at German pocket battleship Admiral Graf Spee rather than Admiral Graf Spee (battleship) or something similar? Would seem to fit the naming conventions more. S.G.(GH) ping! 19:58, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

 * WP:Naming conventions (ships). All ship articles follow this format. Benea (talk) 20:15, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * But we should look for a better name, the term "pocket battleship" was just a nickname given by the Brits. All others referred to them as armored or heavy cruiser. --Denniss (talk) 21:02, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, "Do not make up a ship prefix for a navy that did not use one" - I see now, but if what Denniss says has merit should we change it to battleship? --S.G.(GH) ping! 12:13, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Suggest you post a note at Wikiproject Ships if you are looking for input on this.  Socrates2008 ( Talk )  13:11, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this is one of those situations where you will get people arguing for different classifications based on different facts and points of view. The Germans actually never called this ship a "heavy cruiser" as the reclassification of the Deutschland class vessels did not occur until after the AGS was scuttled.  I like the term "Panzerschiffe" or "armoured ship" and some have pointed out that this ship shares a certain niche with the older class of armoured cruiser.  I preferred the term "pocket battleship" because despite it being something of a nickname it did allow this unique class to stand out from all other cruisers, which were armed with 6- or 8-inch guns.  The Alaska class, built years later, is the only "cruiser" to have larger guns to my knowledge, and many people including myself feel that the Alaskas were really battlecruisers due to their role as cruiser-killers.  the_paccagnellan (talk) 04:58, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The Panzerschiffe were built as substututes for retiring pre-dreadnaught German battleships (check the Ersatz-namen). They were not battleships (eg, their armor was not proof against main guns of their own size). They were designed to out-gun any contemporary heavy cruiser, out-run all but a few ships that were better armed (HMS Hood, Repulse and Reknown), and were designed for long operating range as high seas raiders. They were a unique class of ship, not just cruisers. The term "pocket battleship" was used widely in the press of the 1930s and 1940s thus has historic notability. They are Panzerschiffe, a unique class of warship. Naaman Brown (talk) 13:53, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I suggest the problem of ship classification in the title could be avoided by simply renaming the page 'German warship Admiral Graf Spee'. The term "warship" is (I believe) a neutral-toned descriptor. Perhaps the first section could briefly delve into the ship's unique classification as discussed above. Also, I believe the parentheses in the first sentence implies that "Panzershiff" translates as "pocket-battleship", which it doesn't.184.76.225.106 (talk) 01:15, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The ship was an over-armed cruiser, which the Germans themselves noted when they changed the ships' designation. As to the implication that Panzerschiff translates as pocket-battleship, I have no idea what you're talking about. The sentence reads "originally termed Panzerschiff or armoured ship", which is exactly what Panzerschiff means in English. Parsecboy (talk) 12:50, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That was a quick fix done by me after the comment here, it's not ideal through. Maybe there's a better wording we could use in the class article and in the individual ship articles, covering Panzerschiff, heavy cruiser and the british nicknaming. --Denniss (talk) 17:29, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that "cruiser" is ok, according to Naming_conventions_(ships): "Type - Do not be over-specific about the ship type: Japanese aircraft carrier Shōhō not Japanese light aircraft carrier Shōhō". First, the type of the Deutschland-class was "Panzerschiff" (armoured ship) and later "Schwerer Kreuzer" (heavy cruiser); that wording issue may also be caused by the Versailles treaty (using the French word cuirassé = amoured ship). Comparing battleships, battlecruisers, and cruisers the Admiral Graf Spree had the function of a cruiser, meaning cruising alone in long range missions and disturbing inferior ships while fleeing from superior gunned ships. --Gunnar (talk) 11:23, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Crew internment
The following section is unreferenced, so I am moving it to the talk page until references are found: "The majority of the Graf Spee crew were interned in Argentina. Langsdorff feared that the pro-British Uruguayans might hand over his men in breach of neutrality, and upon reporting this to Berlin he was ordered to get the crew out of Uruguay. A ruse was attempted in which the men were set adrift in the international waters of the River Plate and picked up by three Argentine flag vessels under local German ownership. The German naval attaché then argued that since the thousand or so men were "mariners from the wreck of the 'Admiral Graf Spee'" they should not be interned but returned by neutral steamer to Germany as "survivors". Argentina was not satisfied that they fitted into this category and interned them. Between April 1940 and the end of 1941, all but six of the officers, and about 200 technical NCOs, absconded from internment and were back in Germany where the majority served in the U-boat Arm. These flights were organized and directed by Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, who had been stationed in South America during World War I. Argentine naval connivance was suspected but never proved.

The Germans' behaviour during their stay in Montevideo, especially Langsdorff's action when faced with possible defeat at British hands, was held in high regard in Uruguay. Many locals feared that their city could become directly endangered during any hostilities. After the Uruguayan Government turned down the German request for the ship to be allowed two weeks in harbour for repairs, the German diplomats present suggested to Langsdorff that the ship's guns be used to demolish the port installations, the battleship then being sunk across the harbour exit. This would be in retaliation for Uruguayan "favouritism" towards the British which was not entirely without foundation (the Uruguayan Government refused to concede more than 72 hours 'under any circumstances' whereas they had given a British warship fourteen days to repair in the First World War, a clear breach of their own neutrality.) Langsdorff was opposed to the idea of demolishing the port and his decision to seek international waters to scuttle his ship was seen as partly motivated by a desire not to cause such harm.

After the war the British and US Governments insisted that all Admiral Graf Spee crewmen, irrespective of whether they had been recently married to local girls or not, should be repatriated to Germany, and the refrigerator ship Highland Monarch arrived at Buenos Aires and Montevideo on 16 February 1946 to ship them out. There now ensued a total fiasco, again possibly engineered by the Argentine Navy in collusion with the German secret service. By then the total of Admiral Graf Spee crewmen who had not escaped was 811 men at Buenos Aires and 90 or so at Montevideo. Amongst much lamentation and distress from the women and children ashore, the men plus six wives were paraded at the gangplank five hours before sailing time. At the last moment Argentine Army officers arrived carrying a large bag containing over 900 identity books. It was thus impossible to check the identity of each man against his document as he went aboard, and the British naval attaché watching the pantomime reported his fear that "some substitutions might have occurred".

Since all the men of U-530 and U-977, the two submarines which surrendered to Argentina in 1945, had been given into United States custody and flown out for interrogation before 31 August 1945, there were officially no U-boat men in captivity anywhere in Argentina, Chile or Uruguay. During the voyage of the Highland Monarch northwards it was discovered that 86 U-boat men had been smuggled aboard amidst the Admiral Graf Spee crewmen. Neither the British, US nor Argentine Governments were able to explain subsequently how the 86 U-boat men had got to Argentina in order to be repatriated from there. The most likely explanation is that they arrived aboard U-boats which unloaded on Argentine beaches postwar. The evidence may be found in Professor Ronald Newton's book The Nazi Menace in Argentina 1931–1947 (publ. Board of Trustees, Leland Stanford Junior University, 1992: translation El Cuarto Lado del Triángulo, Editorial Sudamericana, Buenos Aires, 1995, citing US Embassy box 16 "Cables from Buenos Aires Oct–Nov 1946). (Between 1980 and 1990 Professor Newton was appointed by the Argentine Government to report on that country's wartime files.) By 1948 all former Admiral Graf Spee men who wanted to emigrate to Argentina to rejoin family there had been allowed to do so. Most of their descendants are to be found in the town of Villa General Belgrano in Córdoba province."

 Socrates2008 ( Talk )  11:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Pocket Battleship
Since 'German pocket battleship Admiral Graf Spee' redirects here, and "pocket battleship" was (and is) commonly used, (Per WP:BOLD) I added: "(... sometimes referred to as pocket battleship)..." (Even National Geographic uses that term). Objections? Comments? ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 03:01, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, note that this article uses as reference (emphasis mine):

 * Williamson, Gordon (2003). German Pocket Battleships 1939–1945. Oxford: Osprey Publishing. ISBN 1-84176-501-5.
 * Pope, Dudley (2005). The Battle of the River Plate: The Hunt for the German Pocket Battleship Graf Spee. Ithaca, NY: McBooks Press. ISBN 1-59013-096-0.

~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 20:39, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

See also:
Shouldn't there be a See also: section for related items? For example, there's a National Geographic Special' on the Graf Spee: (on Hulu) ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 20:53, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it should be 'External links' instead? Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 03:35, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Year
I added year to first instance of date per section. Otherwise, reader must hunt for the year; often readers start from a section heading, without reading preceding sections, etc., and there should be a year associated with the first instance of a date. Although this seems reasonable (to me, at least), I don't know if this is in accordance with WP's style guidelines. ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 (talk) 20:03, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Steaming....
There are several references though out the document of the Graf Spee 'steaming' from one point to another. The Graf Spee, unlike the three HMS ships against her was a Diesel, as such she didn't steam anywhere. I feel those words should be removed or perhaps an alternate word should be used to prevent confusion. Thoughts? Rjhawkin (talk) 17:53, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

 * Yeah, you're right. I usually write about earlier warships, and was in the habit of referring to their movement as "steaming". I've removed all of those references in the article. Thanks for pointing it out. Parsecboy (talk) 23:21, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

 * The correct term would have been motoring but I suspect that 'steaming' may have been used by the British side when referring to the Graf Spee's transits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.147.13 (talk) 15:07, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

scuttling photo
If you can use it, there's a great public domain (PD-Canada after 1949) photo here: http://yorkspace.library.yorku.ca/xmlui/handle/10315/2118 - 216.58.86.215 (talk) 04:16, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

 * I don't know much about Canadian copyright law, but when did it enter the public domain in Canada? Also, there's nothing that I can see on the image description page (the short or long form) that indicates that the photo is PD in Canada. Maybe there's a general disclaimer I couldn't find? Parsecboy (talk) 16:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

It's from the Toronto Telegraph, and all Canadian photographs created before 1949 are in the public domain. - 216.58.86.215 (talk) 12:40, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, here's another question. Was it PD in 1996? The URAA came into effect in 1996, and if the photo was already PD in Canada, it will be PD in the US as well (which matters because the Wikipedia servers are in the US). If not, the copyright would have been automatically extended in the US. Parsecboy (talk) 13:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * All Canadian photographs created before 1949 were subject to copyright for only 50 years after creation, so it became public domain in 1989. When Bill C-32: An Act to Amend the Copyright Act came into effect on January 1, 1999, photographs whose copyright already had expired remained in the public domain. - 216.58.86.215 (talk) 12:35, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That sounds good to me then. I've uploaded the image and placed it in the article. Thanks! Parsecboy (talk) 14:40, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Kitchens?
The article talks of the ships “kitchens”, surely these should be called "galleys"? 194.176.105.141 (talk) 11:52, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Sorry, that's what the source says. Well, you can't expect anything else of a landlubber, can you? ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 16:23, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

4 tonne Bronze Eagle with swastika
there's an interesting story on the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-30471063 that a massive bronze eagle ontop a swastika has been recovered and the debate about what should be done with it. Seems like the section on salvage is a bit out of date is anyone is still watching this article. Flagpolewiki (talk) 10:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

 * The article does indeed mention the eagle crest (the last sentence in the article). Parsecboy (talk) 13:09, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

armour
The A.G.Spee was improved, as M.J.Whitley stated in his book (1989). As we can see even in dislacement increase, the belt was made of 100 mm steel. Some part of the decks were up to 70 mm, the barbettes were 125 mm since A.Scheer. The 105 mm guns were since beginning there, and with the proper 105 mm mounts (the Deutchland started with 3x88 mm, the Scheer had 6x105 mm but with 88 mm mounts adapted to the new task). Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.135.245.89 (talk) 01:33, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits - why keep incorrect data in the infoxbox?
Parsecboy, I just painstakingly corrected the article so that the infobox information and the text data agrees, and I cited high quality sources for all my changes. Reverting all this is rather mystifying to me as the data in the infobox regarding speed, range and armour is obviously wrong. Whitely, German capital ships of WW2, quotes actual trials data for speed and range and his data on armour matches Groner's. I will revert it back, ASAP, unless you have a very good explanation.Damwiki1 (talk) 23:20, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The article and text already does match. Gröner was writing at the time from official sources, he is correct. It is also inappropriate to change the reference format from the established style. Parsecboy (talk) 23:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Please give a source for 29.5 knots for Graf Spee and tell me where that is mentioned in the text? Where is 150mm turret armour mentioned in the text? The data from Whitely quotes the actual ship's trials and gives exact speeds and SHP recorded. He gives the same type of data for Graf Spee's fuel consumption and the resulting ranges. Graf Spee's diesel engines were very efficient and a range of 8900nm at 20 knots is completely incorrect. Last Graf Spee's standard displacement exceeded the treaty limitations so why does the lead read as it does?Damwiki1 (talk) 23:50, 9 April 2015 (UTC) OK, I see where it states 29.5 knots in the text but this is incorrect. Again, Whitely quotes directly from Kriegsmarine trial documents and Graf Spee made 28.50 knots with 53,650hp at 240rpm.Damwiki1 (talk) 23:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * 1: The source for 29.5 knots is in the article.
 * 2: As for where it is mentioned in the text, I direct your attention to this line: "The ship's top speed was 29.5 knots (54.6 km/h; 33.9 mph), at 54,000 shaft horsepower (40,000 kW)."
 * 3:That was changed some time ago by another editor, incorrectly.
 * 4:Those are the figures Gröner reports. Again, he was writing at the time, and was using official records.
 * 5:The line in the introduction reads as it does because the Germans stated that the ship was within the limits. That's what "nominal" means. Parsecboy (talk) 01:06, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Whitely's data is directly sourced from ship's trials and cited in his references. 29.5 knots is simply incorrect as it would require far more than 54000hp. Bidlingmaier also states that Graf Spee made 28.5 knots on trials and he gives his sources as German Navy archival documents. He also agrees with Whitely's figures for armour thickness. He gives a range of 20,000nm at 18 knots, but Whitely's figures give the exact consumption and calculated range.Damwiki1 (talk) 01:38, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I just checked Koop and Schmolke's excellent book on the ships (see here), which gives detailed trials figures and it does agree with Whitley - they give estimates of 16,300 nmi at 18.69 knots and 7,900 nmi at 26 knots. It seems Gröner is mistaken. I have updated the article to match. Parsecboy (talk) 20:51, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Naming
Just found out that "graf" means "count". I am reading the article "Maximilian von Spee" and there is little mention of him having been royalty in his lifetime. It states that he was "Vice Admiral" and "Reichsgraf" which also translates as "count" or "count of the reich" -of the empire- so I'm not sure if he was posthumously awarded the rank of full Admiral and Count. At any rate, why is the "Reich" part omitted in the name of the ship? I mean why not "Vice Admiral Reichgraf Von Spee"? Perhaps a reader who speaks German Could clarify this. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertoff (talk • contribs) 21:40, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Spee was born a count, the "Reich" part indicates that the family had been elevated by the Holy Roman Emperor. After 18067 there was no diffference to other counts. The "von/v.", which indicates nobility, is usually omitted when there is a noble title before it (Otto von Bismarck/Fürst Bismarck). Any admiral is addressed as "Herr Admiral", the other bits ("Konter-" or "Vize-") are omitted. So "Admiral Graf Spee" is the correct (short) name. ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 05:04, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Great clarification thank you for your promptness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertoff (talk • contribs) 16:37, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Call sign
The Battle of the River Plate article mentions the call sign DTGS, would these have been Graf Spee's Code Letters? Mjroots (talk) 19:58, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

 * Yes, that was Graf Spee's international call-sign, the initial 'D' signifying a German ship ('Deutschland'). British ships' initial letter was a 'G'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.11.196 (talk) 10:53, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Gun caliber
My recent edit to improve the accuracy of this article was reverted because "German guns are given in cm, not mm, see basically any relevant publication". Verifiability is laudable but in the truth v verification debate even JW has commented (Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:52 UTC 1 September 2011) that editors shouldn't publish untruths, even if there are many independent citations to support the assertion. If more precise values are available, should we continue to display the imprecise ones simply to ensure consistency with one person's perception of third party published material? Astronomy Explained (talk) 22:05, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Your recent edit was completely unsourced - you provided no source to show that the 28 cm SK C/28 had a calibre of 283 mm rather than 280 mm or that the 15 cm SK C/28 had a calibre of 149 mm rather than 150 mm. In addition referring to a gun as an 88 mm is no more accurate than 8.8 cm.Nigel Ish (talk) 22:19, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It's no so much accuracy as those are the guns' proper names, irrespective of their actual bore diameter. The gun is a "15 cm SK C/28", not a "149 mm SK C/28". The nominal diameters of most small arm calibers are slightly (or significantly) different from their bore diameters, but that doesn't make an M1911 chambered in .451 ACP any more than Graf Spee was armed with six 283 mm SK C/28s. Parsecboy (talk) 22:38, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, please don't necro old threads. Parsecboy (talk) 22:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The article 28 cm SK C/28 naval gun gives the calibre as 283mm. I was informed a long time ago that we don't source internal material if the page is hyperlinked. The point regarding the names of the weapons is acknowledged, but I can't see why the actual calibres should be obscured. Astronomy Explained (talk) 22:48, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Because we use the proper name. As does just about every publication on these ships. That level of detail is useful in infoboxes in articles on the guns themselves, but it is irrelevant in other articles. Parsecboy (talk) 00:24, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

"Buried dead" Where?
"Scuttling" Section

"After arriving in port, the wounded crewmen were taken to local hospitals and the dead were buried with full military honours."

It's a ship at sea taking refuge in a foreign port. One assumes the dead were buried on land, but possibly not. It would be an interesting addition if this detail could be added, at least to the extent that it rules-out burial at sea (if that did not happen).Tym Whittier (talk) 00:52, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Burial at sea is only done in deep water - otherwise bodies would wash ashore. Parsecboy (talk) 12:34, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The point is to get the Article to say this.Tym Whittier (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Is it something that really needs to be said though? A ship can't very well bury its dead at sea if it doesn't go to sea. Parsecboy (talk) 19:52, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * No it isn't needed.. The statement is perfectly clear as it is. The ship was in port,,and the dead were buried.. Meters (talk) 11:08, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

List of prizes, ships captured and sunk.
The article would benefit from a consolidated list of the ships captured and/or sunk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.100.188.53 (talk) 12:37, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Incidental introduction
In the introduction, the following sentence is completely incidental to the main subject, it ambiguous as to who reclassified it and requires a citation. It should therefore be removed, (or, perhaps moved to the Deutschland-class page, if a citation is available.)
 * The two sister-ships of her class, Deutschland and Admiral Scheer, were reclassified as heavy cruisers in 1940.

83.100.188.53 (talk) 21:01, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Page Contradiction with Battle of the River Plate
While reading this article and that of the Battle of the River Plate, I've noticed the two contradict each other. The Battle of the River Plate claims that 9 groups were formed by the Royal and French Navy to hunt down the Admiral Graf Spee, whereas this page claims that 8 were formed.

I am unaware of which is more accurate, so thought i should bring it to the attention of people who might now better.

Apologies if I've done something wrong, please bring it to my attention if i have.

SomePersons (talk) 12:17, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

 * That page does not appear to have a citation; this one is covered by Rohwer, who is a well-regarded naval historian. Parsecboy (talk) 12:23, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:German cruiser Admiral Graf Spee


text: User talk:216.47.179.44

title: User talk:216.47.179.44