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Talk:Rio Grande do Sul

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the spaniards are in that 5% of "others" in the ethnic groups? I thought we were as much as the portuguese, i think that 25% are of portuguese AND spaniards.

Actually, most people are indeed Italian and German descendents.

Ethnically speaking, Spanish influence is negligible.

Same-Sex Civil Union
Someone removed the which I attached to same-sex civil union topic. While I have no doubt that this fact is wikipedia-worthy but I would like to see a source or two about it. For now I'm replacing the 'citation needed' in a less conspicuous place. Corvokarasu 12:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The reference can be found at the Rio Grande do Sul State Court website at: www.tj.rs.gov.br/site_php/noticias/mostranoticia.php?assunto=1&categoria=1&item=30873 By GaJewcho
 * Thanks. I've added the reference to the article. Corvokarasu 13:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The reference is not enough; it's only about a judicial decision, not about a supposed law. Besides, Badauê seems to imply that stable homosexual unions are not exclusive of Rio Grande do Sul, nor they began there. Ninguém (talk) 03:07, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Removed. The information was distorted, Brazil is not a common law country; judicial decisions do not "legalise" anything, they merely create jurisprudence. Ninguém (talk) 03:07, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

HDI
Where did the 2004 HDI data come from? Brazilian articles claim a value of 0.854. Janiovj 02:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Culture
Who wrote about Rio Grande do Sul: "Samba and carnival are not popular as in the rest of the country and the internationally famous Brazilian mulatas are rarely seen." really doesn't know Brazil. This cultural character of samba and mulatas is only from Rio de Janeiro and the coastal Northeast. Fsolda 03:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, not even in coastal Northeast. Of course there are many "mulatas" there, but samba is just another popular style, but not a common one. Forró and other Northeastern rhythms are much more popular.201.9.204.144 (talk) 07:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)YgorCoelho

Curiosity changed to Statistics
Can anyone tell me how to change the template that includes a heading "Curiosity" into the entries for Brazilian states so that the heading is "Statistics"?

Redhill54 (talk) 15:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Pardo
Is "Brown" not the best or least bad equivalent word in English for "Pardo"?Redhill54 (talk) 12:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Origin of word "gaúcho"
Natives of the state are known as Gaúchos, named after the cattle herders and ranchers who settled the state's pampa regions.

Actually, this is an old but wrong myth. "Gaúchos" were originally, in the colonial period, thieves who walked throughout the pampas in their horses robbing cattle and other precious goods from that rural and colonial time. Only later it became a common denomination of all people from Rio Grande de São Pedro, which became Rio Grande do Sul. 201.9.204.144 (talk) 06:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)YgorCoelho

european gauchos
The article contrasts the "gaucho cultural influence" with the "europan" one... What does that mean? Gauchos are not strictly native-americans for all I know. -- NIC1138 (talk) 17:30, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * mostly because the Gaucho is from spanish and/or portuguese descendence, while many cities in the north of the state were founded by german and italian immigrants... since spain and portugal settled the land in the 17th-18th century and germans and italians only arrived here in the 19th, the latest are referred as european since they had more in common with europe than the european descedents that were living in the state by that time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.10.35.6 (talk) 21:27, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

"Spanish accent"
What is a "Spanish accent"? If it means speaking Portuguese like a Spaniard or other native Spanish speaker would speak it, then no, people in Rio Grande do Sul do not speak Portuguese with a Spanish accent (not even an Argentinian or Uruguayan accent, if it matters). Ninguém (talk) 03:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

In fact, the first line of the article gives the pronunciation of "Rio Grande do Sul" there: ʁiu ˈgɾɐ̃de do ˈsuɫ.

Now if we go to IPA for Spanish, we will see that "ʁ", "ɐ", and "ɫ" aren't even Spanish phonemes (a person speaking Portuguese with a "Spanish accent" would pronounce it "xiu gɾantʃi do sul"). Ninguém (talk) 03:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

The southwestern region and race
The text now reads:

People of Gaúcho ancestry (who can be of any race) predominate in the Southwest.

The IBGE 2000 Census data for the Southwest are as following:

 * 1) Total    747.115
 * 2) White    606.650
 * 3) Black     40.138
 * 4) Asian        548
 * 5) "Parda"   95.404
 * 6) Amerindian 2.078
 * 7) Undeclared 2.296

So, while obviously people in the Southwest "can" be of any race, this is a very incomplete information; 81.20% of them are White. The Southwest was not a region of immigration; most White people there descend from "Lagunistas", ie, Bandeirantes from São Paulo who established themselves first in Laguna, in what is now Santa Catarina and then moved south to prey on the cattle left astray by the destruction of the Jesuit reductions.

I am proposing to change the text to:

''The Southwest was originally populated by "lagunistas", people coming from Laguna, Santa Catarina, a town settled by paulistas from Sorocaba. These were to become the XVIII century "gaúchos".''

Here is the reference for the change:

If no one opposes this change in a reasoned way, I'm going to proceed to edit the article. Ninguém (talk) 03:08, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

 * The source does not claim Brazilian Gauchos are descended from people from the city of Laguna. It only says "people from Laguna organized the creation and trade in livestock". Moreover, Darcy Ribeiro claim that "The Brazilian Gauchos have a common historical formation with the other Gauchos from the Plate. They arise from the ethnic transformation of the mixed-race people of mixed Spanish and Portuguese men with Guarani women".

The population from Southwest Rio Grande do Sul is largely connect to the old population from Argentina and Uruguay, before the mass European immigration in the late 19th century that actually changed most of the ethnic formation of Argentina and Uruguay. Since Southwest Rio Grande was not affected by the more recent European immigration, the population there still has the same Portuguese/Spanish/Guarani origin of the Gauchos from La Plata Basin. It seems the text there is ignoring the Guarani Indians in the formation of the people in Rio Grande do Sul, particularly Southern and Southweastern Rio Grande, wich was very important and undeniable. And the fact that most people there now claim to be White to Census takers does not erase the huge Indian Guarani influence there and, to some extent, also black African. Opinoso (talk) 02:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

On the population of the Southwest (Demographics)
Among a number of other changes, a recent edit changed this sentence in the Demographics section:

 * Like the other Gauchos from the La Plata Basin the population there was a result from the continual assortative mating between Spanish and Portuguese men with local women ultimately descended from Guarani and Kaingang populations, resulting in a population that is 81.20% White. It is possible that the European ancestry of the people in this region is predominantly Spanish.

into this:

 * Like the other Gauchos from the La Plata Basin the population there was a result from the mixture of Spanish and Portuguese men with the Guarani women with a predominant Spanish ancestry and also a significant African contribution.

First of all, I would like to understand the rationale of the suppression of the Kaingangs here. In fact, if any thing should be changed here, it is to include the "Pampeanos" (Charruas, Minuanos, etc.), who were in fact the main Amerindian populations of the Southwest of Rio Grande do Sul.

Second, it is interesting that the information that the local population is 81.20% White has also been suppressed. Why? What the problem is with them being White? What is under question here, the fact itself, its source (which is the IBGE), the ability of these people to racially self-classify?

Third, the dynamics of Amerindian/European interbreeding is very strange in the text as it now stands. We understand why there was a continual supply of European males in Rio Grande do Sul (and Brazil at large). It is because Portuguese (and Spanish) colonists were overwhelmingly male. On the other hand, where would a continual excess of Amerindians come from? Why would the Portuguese (or Spaniards) prefer to mate Amerindian women when there were already mixed-race women integrated into the colonial population (in fact, this is what the available sources suggest: Portuguese colonists would always prefer Portuguese women as wives; these being unavailable, they would then turn to Brazilian women of recent Portuguese origin).

I would like to discuss these questions earnestly, in the light of available sources, without picking one of them (Ribeiro) as revealed truth. And if a discussion is not possible, I am going to revert this change. Ninguém (talk) 16:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Funny, because you already posted a (unsourced) information that the people from Southweastern Rio Grande do Sul are of Portuguese descent, and now you are including Amerindians in the middle? What a contradition.

To your "first" argument, you did not bring sources to include the other Amerindian populations. Where did you take the Kaingang from? Souces, please.

By the way, why did you try to remove the Africans from the composition of the population in Wastern Rio Grande do Sul? The genetic study found that 11% of the population there descends from Africans. This is a lot.

To your second argument, how can you mix Europeans, Amerindians and some Africans and produce a 81% White population? This is only possible in Brazil. Brazilian census is based on self-classification, and people say whatever they want to the census. And it is worlwide known that in Brazil people tend to "whiten" themselves to the census (they say they are Whites even when they have clear negroid and Amerindian features). Then, it's not a surprise that 81% of the people there "claims" to be White, but genetic studies show that the majority of the population has Amerindian ancestry, and many also have African ancestry.

When you posted the information that 81% are Whites, it ignores that in Brazil the conception of whiteness is dubious, and it sells the wrong idea they all look white. Why don't you add the information that in Brazil people tend to whiten themselves to the census as well? This is from where you get a fantastic "81% White" population in a region of Rio Grande do Sul that has similar Amerindian admixture that was found in the Amazon rainforest (where people are known for their Amerindian roots)!!

About your third argument, it seems that you are bringing hypotheses, theories and possibilities without sources. So I will not even comment on them, because Wikipedia is not a forum. Opinoso (talk) 01:49, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Information about the Kaingangs is sourced.

 * I am not "trying to remove" anything. This is again a personal attack and a violation of AGF.

 * This absurd idea about the Brazilian Census being extraordinary in using self-classification has already been debunked. It is standard international practice, adopted by other countries that research race in their censuses, such as the United States.

 * You insist in this idea that there are biological races, true races, and that Brazilian Whites are "fake Whites", that Brazilians lie to the Census, etc. This is antiscientific and reactionary.

 * You say that I get a fantastic 81% figure. But I don't "get" anything: these are Census figures.

 * You don't understand what MtDNA is. It does not measure admixture. A population can have 100% African MtDNA and be predominantly of European origin.

 * It is not my theory that the origin of Brazilian demographics is based on assortative mating, nor is my fault that you can't understand what this means. And stop accusing me of using hypotheses, theories and possibilities without sources. At least as long as you insist in your false theories of "true" races and of Brazilian people "lying" to the Census. Ninguém (talk) 02:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Stop trying to find "personal attacks" everywhere. You are the one making personal attacks, saying that I use "false theories of "true" races. You are using the talk pages of Wikipedia to discuss racial issues. Wikipedia is not a forum. You came with all that story that people from Weastern Rio Grande are of Portuguese descent, which is not true, no sources report anything similar. Why do you insist on the imaginary Portuguese ancestry?

 * And yes, Brazilians tend to "whiten" themselves in the census. They say they are Whites when they are not Whites. It's not me who is saying that; several scholars and studies concluded that, even though you seem to always ignore this important information. And you are the one who is always using the word "race" in Wikipedia, not me.

 * And yes, races do not exist, but physical apparence does. And Brazilians who do not have a White or European physical appearance say they are Whites to the census. Ronaldo say he is White. I know several people who are darker than "Ronaldo" who also say they are Whites and are even racists against Blacks. Shame on those people...

 * It's prooven that in Weastern Rio Grande, where 81% claim to be White, but when they have their DNA analyzed, most of them have Amerindian DNA and African as well.

 * I understand what MtDNA is. It reflects that there was a great mixture with Amerindians in that area of Rio Grande, as well with Africans. But it does not say that the genomic ancestry is mostly Amerindians, neither that it is mostly European. We will have to wait for that study. But you are the one concluding that the main ancestry there is European, which is not prooven anywhere. It may be, but that ancestry is mostly Spanish, like the genetic studies concluded, not Portuguese, like you tried to claim. Opinoso (talk) 19:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I am not "trying to find" personal attacks. You are making personal attacks. It is an old practice of yours. Do you want me to re-post a list of your base personal attacks against other people, calling them ignorant, telling them to get a job, telling them that they know no English, calling them racists without good reason?

In fact, you have been accusing me of deliberately distorting information to boost the figures of Portugese Brazilians and diminish the figures of Brazilians of other origins, because I am of Portuguese descent myself. In other words, you are accusing me of intellectual dishonesty. Since you have absolutely no base for such accusation, it constitutes a personal attack. You are not discussing ideas, you are attributing (base) motivations to me.

On the other hand, I am not attacking you personally. I am not attributing any motives to you. In fact, I don't think there are any intellectually partisan, sectarian, religious, or political motivations to your posts. I am not saying you are editing the way you do because you are a leftist or a rightist, or because you are of Italian or Portuguese descent, or because you are a follower of Darcy Ribeiro or Edward Telles. I don't actually think you are any of these; I don't even think you actually understand Ribeiro or Telles (or Schwartzman or Magnoli or Miguel Ángel García).

What I am trying to do is to show what exactly your ideas imply. If Brazilians "say they are Whites when they are not Whites", then certainly there is an external, objective, standard to classify people in "Whites" and "non-Whites". What standard is this, Opinoso? Who establishes it? Can you source it?

You say that "Brazilians tend to 'whiten' themselves in the Census. Don't you think that if that was true the Census would be unable to find economic, educational, and social differences between "Whites" and "non-Whites"? How do you explain that these differences exist and are actually quite remarkable?

For instance, here is the IBGE table for race and litteracy in Southwestern Rio Grande do Sul. You may see that the proportion of illiterates is about ten per cent among "brancos" and "amarelos", but about 15% among "pardos" and "pretos", and 20% among "indígenas". So those categories are socially significant in Southwestern Rio Grande do Sul; they cannot be simply dismissed by stating that Brazilians misreport themselves to the Census. Which in fact seems obvious: why aren't Whites 100% of the Brazilian population? Why are they 80% in Southwestern Rio Grande do Sul but under 30% in Bahia?

This "information", anyway, does not belong to the article about Rio Grande do Sul. It belongs to the article on Race in Brazil.

You say "races do not exist". Of course they exist, Opinoso. They are social constructs, not biological realities, but social constructs exist and are extremely powerful. Perhaps more than biological realities. And of course physical appearance exists, and certaiely plays a role in the social construction of "race". But a "White Brazilian" is not a person that has a European physical appearance, in abstract: it is a person who is socially accepted as "White"; not merely a person who "looks White", but who "looks White" to others. Evidently having a "European physical appearance" is this, but "appearance", as the name itself says, is subjective. What "appears" Black to me may not appear so to you. Thence the importance of the adjective in the phrases "socially perceived" or "socially accepted".

You like to give Ronaldinho Fenômeno as an example. But, in fact, he is an example of the opposite: the sheer amount of racist abuse he received because he dared to declare himself "White" shows that light mulattoes are not considered "White" in Brazil, or at least that other, different considerations, besides a fair complexion and a nice, fat bank account are actually necessary for that.

You also say that it is "prooven that in Weastern Rio Grande, where 81% claim to be White, but when they have their DNA analyzed, most of them have Amerindian DNA and African as well". And? MtDNA is a negligible part of human genome, a very small part of 1%. It is only interesting as a tool to find out the matrilineal lineage of a person. What studies are about MtDNA cannot overrun our knowledge of history: Amerindian populations have been all but exterminated in most of Brazil except the North and the Center-West. Yes, some of their women mated with Portuguese men, particularly in the beggining of colonisation, or whenever the Portuguese moved to new territory they hadn't razed before, or whenever huge amounts of Portuguese men came to Brazil (such as in the beggining of the colonisation of the Minas Gerais). But whenever the Portuguese men had a choice (and they usually had) they would prefer mamelucas to Indian women, and 3/4 Portuguese women over mamelucas, and so on. So the miscigenation was very real but very unequal, and resulted in a population that is genetically much closer to Europeans than to Amerindians of Africans. This is well sourced, you know; you even brought up some sources that directly point to it, albeit you seem to be unaware that they mean that.

You are also misinterpreting the study you use to claim the European ancestry of people in Western Rio Grande do Sul is mostly Spanish. The study is far from conclusive; it tells us that this is a possibility, not a certainty. It certainly does not bring up any convincing argument for this; it does not even point what genetic markers lead to such conclusion. In general, the litterature about these matters is quite sober on the possibility of tracing the difference between Mediterranic Caucasian DNA of different origins. Even the difference between Nordic Caucasian and Mediterranic Caucasian DNA is difficult to establish; there seems to be no one genetic marker able to establish such differences (which are essentially statistic differences).

It may well be that most genetic ancestry in Western Rio Grande do Sul is Spanish, not Portuguese. While I am far from convinced by this study, you might have seen that since you brought it, this information has been incorporated to the relevant articles. I am no owner of truth; I still think the population of Western Rio Grande do Sul is mostly of Portuguese origin. I am a historian, not a geneticist; historic knowledge seems to point in this direction: demographic pressure was always against the Spaniards in the boundaries. It is the people in Uruguay who speak a mix of Spanish and Portuguese, not the people in Rio Grande do Sul. It was Brazil that invaded Uruguay twice, and Argentina and Paraguay once, not the other way round. Rio Grande do Sul and Uruguay have similar areas, but the population of Rio Grande do Sul is three times that of Uruguay, albeit immigration to Uruguay having been proportionally more important than to Rio Grande do Sul. Maybe I am wrong, but it will take more than an article saying "perhaps" in giving no specifics to convince me. On the other hand, the study is cited in the relevant articles; it is important and it may be correct in that analysis. If it is, I will be wrong. It won't be the first nor the last time, and I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is when I read an information, go to the given source, and the given source says something completely different, sometimes even the direct opposite (such as it was the case with Magnoli or Schwartzman, and Ribeiro in a few instances). Unhappily this happens with an alarming frequence when you were the editor writing the text and providing the source. The recent fiasco about Miguel Ángel García and the percent of people of Italian origin in Rio Grande do Sul is one more example.

Have a nice Easter, and may the Bunny bring you some insights about what you are doing here. Ninguém (talk) 01:47, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

 * What are you talking about? Why do you insist on using Wikipedia as a forum, writing all those huge texts with your opinions that nobody is going to read? Use this talk page to discuss the article, not to tell us what's your profession or what you believe is the truth or not. We don't care about it. Opinoso (talk) 02:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

 * And when scholars report that Brazilians tend to whiten themselves to the census, it does not mean that there are no Whites in Brazil. There are plently of Whites in Brazil, but the percentage is much smaller than the census show. Everybody knows that Brazil is far from being 50% White, the figure found in the Census. You only need to walk on the streets of Brazil and look at the face of the people. I'm not talking about fancy shopping malls or restaurants, where White faces will predominate. I'm talking about the mass of people waiting for a bus on the street to go to work, like most Brazilian do. Only the imaginary Brazil is 50% White and only 6% Black. This is not the Brazil I live.

 * And you can keep saying that the genetic European ancestry predominates in Brazil. It probably does, but it doesn't mean that European faces predominate here, because when you mix White with Black and Amerindians, the physical type of the latter two predominate. Look at singer Neguinho da Beija-Flor, whose genetic ancestry is 70% European, even though it seems he came straight from Africa, or Barack Obama, who is half White but could not pass as European, but could easily pass as African. So, genetic ancestry has nothing to do with physical appareance at all, particularly when you mix light people with dark people, the dark predominates. Opinoso (talk) 02:30, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Unhappilly, "walking in the streets" isn't a reliable source. The source here is the Census, or some other source that you are yet to find that reports the figure you want. On the other hand, you surely never "walked in the streets" of any city in Soutwhestern Rio Grande do Sul, so what are you talking about?

You say that "when you mix White with Black and Amerindians, the physical type of the latter two predominate". This is news to me, can you point me to some biology textbook that explains this? You say Barack Obama "could not pass as European, but could easily pass as African". I don't think so; have you ever seen an African? Here, for instance, you have a photograph of an African lady; surely Mr. Obama cannot pass for a person of the same "racial" category as her.

You should really stop before you say something really damning. Ninguém (talk) 02:43, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Are you serious that you did not know that a child of a White parent and a Black parent almost always get the dark skin of the parent? Of course you are joking. Do you really live in Brazil? It seems you don't.

 * And no, people from Southweastern Rio Grande do Sul are not of Portuguese descent, no matter how hard you try to show that or even pick up a phone book to check their surnames (remember that a Portuguese last nome does not mean Portuguese ancestry, ok?). If you want to see "Portuguese" in Rio Grande do Sul, go to the coast. Many Azoreans there. But in Southweastern...not really.

 * I think you are the one who has never seen an African, and you seem to know nothing about Africa. Not a surprise, because the Brazilian education system does not give African the importance it deserves. But it makes me surprise, since you already declared to be a Historian, but seems not to be similar to Africa, the place of birth of humanity, from where you descend, we all descend (including the Portuguese).

 * Not all Black Africans look the same. There are Africans from different color shades and features, varying from light to dark. Your picture of an African girl does not represent the entire Africa. And yes, Barack Obama could pass as Africa. Maybe because you are Brazilian and only consider a very dark person as "Black". But Obama could pass easily as African. He doesn't look different from Nelson Mandela.

 * The people from Ethiopia tend to have lighter skin (look at Ethiopians Sophia Bekele, Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia, or Tilahun Gessesse). Do they look like the African girl in your picture? Sophia Bekele seems to be lighter than Obama is...and what a surprise, she is African, while Obama is half White from the United States...funny, isn't it? I find it.

 * How about the Khoisan people? Obama would not be out of place among them...funny, isn't it?

 * Somali people also do not look like the "fake typical African" girl in your picture. (Wow! Africans with straight hair; Yes! They do exist Ninguém...what a surprise for you)

 * Maybe because those areas of Africa have strong Arab influence, but they are part of Black Africa, not from Arab Northern African.

 * Then, your imaginary and limited idea of Africa seems so old. You should learn more about that fantastic continent during this Easter holiday. It's just a hint! Good luck with your studies!! Opinoso (talk) 03:14, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I am asking you for something quite simple: an authoritative biology text that explains the genetics of skin colour. Can you provide one? I have always seen people of a White and a Black parent having an intermediary skin colour, very unlike, for instance, eye colour, in which dark eye genes are certainly dominant.

You seem to know a lot about Southwestern Rio Grande do Sul. Can you point me some litterature about the subject (not, really please, Ribeiro, who I have already read - thirty years ago -, is outdated and really doesn't explain anything)? Who were those Spaniards who colonised the region? When?

Certainly not all Africans look the same. Did I say that? I don't think so. But then not all Europeans look the same. Sophia Loren would probably not pass as a Swede, and Bjorn Borg doesn't look like a Sicilian. So? Barack Obama doesn't look European, but he also doesn't look African. Subsaharan African, I mean, of course. He wouldn't also pass as a Tunisian, but for very different reasons.

Thanks for the hint. What do you suggest I read? What do you think is more important in African history? Should I focus on the influence of Islam on Subsaharan Africa, or on the autochtonous cultures? In each case, can you commend me a good book on the subject?

Meanwhile, I am still waiting for an explanation of how there are significant social differences between Brazilian Whites and Brazilian Blacks, measured by the censuses, if the information about colour is totally unreliable... Ninguém (talk) 03:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

 * For instance, this study seems to back my acritical musings about skin colour:

 * one of the more interesting findings was that skin reflectance appeared to be mainly additive. In other words, mean skin reflectance of “F1 hybrid” or “backcross hybrid” groups is intermediate between their respective parental groups.

 * Perhaps these authors are also wrong, and you should lecture them on how skin colour genetics actually work? Perhaps they should walk on the streets of, say, Uruguaiana, instead of making lab research, to understand it? Ninguém (talk) 03:58, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Did you read Ribeiro 30 years ago? Funny, because he published "O Povo Brasileiro", the book I used as source, in 1997, 13 years ago. So you are able to read books that were not even published yet.

Moreover, this is not the place for book suggestions. When are you going to learn that Wikipedia is not a Forum?

And you keep saying that Obama could not pass as African...you said you are a Historian, but posted a picture of an African girl suggesting that she has a typical African looking. As I tought you, there are Sub-Saaran Africans who even have straight hair and ligher skin than Obama has. Then, he could pass as African, never as European. Even in Brazil he is considered to be Black, since the new and less racist conception Blackness is growing in Brazil, making it possible to accept Obama as Black, even though there are some people who are still living in the early 20th century and would not recognize Obama as Black (it's hard for some Brazilians admit that a person is "Black", because being black still have negative connotations, it's like if it was offensive, they would say "he is not Black enough". Always finding a way not to lebel a person as Black.... of course that people who think like that are still living in the early 20th century, they did not arrive in the 21st century yet.

There are significant social differences between Blacks and Whites in Brazil because the people who look White are more likely to be wealthier than people who look Black, for historic reasons. And even when the person does not look White, but is rich, the person reports to be White in the census. It inflates even more the social social difference.

I think this is quite obvious, isn't it? Or are you going to say that as a Historian you did not know that Brazil still has racist influences, and that some people think that being White is better than being Black or non-White? It's common to see people claiming strict European ancestry, when they have obvious negroid or Amerindian features, or embracing the White side of the family and denying the Black side. Don't you know those people? Do you really live in Brazil? Because to live in Brazil and not knowing this kind of people is impossible, really. Even though I avoid contact with those people, they often appear. It makes me sad. Opinoso (talk) 04:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Since you said you started to read books 30 years ago, and at that time we were still living under the "racial democracy myth", you should read newer books, not only about Africa, that you seem not to know about, but about Brazil itself and the newer racial discussions. And no, I won't suggest you books, search them in a library. Opinoso (talk) 04:19, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, obviously you don't have any real suggestions for my readings. It is a pity, first because I don't get the suggestions, but mainly because it causes me the definite impression that you don't have the leastest idea of what books to suggest.

When I say I read Ribeiro, I don't mean necessarily O Povo Brasileiro - as you may know, he wrote other books. O Processo Civilizatório, Teoria do Brasil, for instance. Much nationalist enthusiasm, a defective reading of Marx and Engels, an abstruse theory of Brazilian class stratification, an inability to actually sever ties with the racial democracy myth, etc. Spare me.

Your explanation obviously doesn't explain anything. We are talking about a population that reports to be 80% White to the census, while you say it is predominantly non-White. So at least 30% of this population is, according to your interesting theory, "lying to the Census". I suppose this does not mess up the socio-economic differences between Whites and non-Whites? How? Or perhaps these differences are not caused by "race" but rather are the cause of "race", meaning people are not rich because they are White, but White because they are rich? In which case, how can we be sure that there are actually socio-economic differences between Whites and non-Whites? This is of course contrary to that litterature you won't suggest me, such as, for instance, Hasenbalg and Valle Silva, who claim to have been able to determine "race" as an independent variable.

I live in Brazil, Opinoso, and have lived here much longer than you. Of course I know people who don't like to talk about their race. A very bad way to do that is to claim to be White; it immediately attracts the wildest racist attacks, as poor Ronaldo Fenômeno certainly discovered the hard way.

I am also to understand what has a person to gain lying to, of all things, the Census, which is totally unimportant to any practical individual purpose.

You have no suggestions for me, but I have two for you.

I suggest you stop saying things about Barack Obama. Here is a photograph of his father. As you may see, Obama's skin colour is intermediate between his father's and his mother's, as those genetic professors pointed it should be... and you have again put yourself in the undesirable position of saying things that anyone can verify are false.

I also suggest you try reading books to understand what the authors mean, not to project your own ideas onto them. Ninguém (talk) 05:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Well, since there is no argument against it, I have changed the text to reflect reality: the region was not populated by the Guarani, and, accordingly, its present day "racial" ancestry is not characterised by the miscegenation between Portuguese/Spaniards and Guaranis. As it may be noticed, there is a source for that, and I hope this is not reversed unless there is some kind of problem that can be discussed with the source. Ninguém (talk) 12:33, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

 * I have also restablished the truth regarding the source purported to support the idea that the genetic contribution of Spaniards was more important than that of the Portuguese in Southwestern Rio Grande do Sul; it talks about possibilities and is definitely not conclusive. Ninguém (talk) 13:20, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, Opinoso, you have had a full month to research a source for your astonishing "information" that "a child of a White parent and a Black parent almost always get the dark skin of the parent", but you haven't come with any. I suppose you are again too busy? Or perhaps you haven't found any? In this case, I would say that there is a reason it is so difficult to find it: it is because it is false. "a child of a White parent and a Black parent" won't get the dark the dark skin of the Black parent, but an intermediate colour skin. It is basic biology, you should have learnt it in high school. Where did you get the opposite idea? Is it a popular superstition of the particular corner of Brazil you live in, or have you simply made it up? Ninguém (talk) 02:40, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

 * Two months, and you haven't still sourced this absurd. I am taking this as an admission of failure, that you can't actually find any source for this fantasy of yours.

Italians
I noticed user Ninguém could not verify that Miguel Angel Garcia wrote that 60% of the population in Rio Grande do Sul is of Italian descent. Maybe he is having problems with Italian (?). Let's write what Garcia wrote:

"São Paulo è il maggiore centro di concentrazione di popolazione di origine italiana, nonostante che la sua importanza relativa tra le origini immigratorie (38%) sia assai inferiore a quella che ha in Santa Caterina e Rio Grande, che corrisponde al livello argentino (60%)."

Translation:

"São Paulo is the largest center of concentration of people of Italian origin despite its relative importance among the immigrant origins (38%) is much lower than that in Santa Catarina and Rio Grande, which corresponds to the level of Argentina (60%)."

And we can see, 38% of the population in São Paulo is of Italian descent, while in Rio Grande and Santa Catarina they are 60%, similar to Argentina.

Are you able to understand it now, Ninguém? And I think you find it to be a reliable source, because you already used this source in the past. Opinoso (talk) 19:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Let's understand what García (not "Garcia") says. He says that the importance of the concentration of people of Italian origin in São Paulo among the immigrant origins (38%) is much lower than that in Santa Catarina and Rio Grande, which corresponds to the level of Argentina (60%).

 * So what he says is exactly, people of Italian origin are 60% of the the people of immigrant origin (in Rio Grande do Sul). Not people of Italian origin are 60% of the population of Rio Grande do Sul. Ninguém (talk) 21:05, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Wrong. He makes a clear connection with the 60% of Italian descendants in Argentina. In fact, according to him 60% of Argentines are of Italians, the same goes for Rio Grande and Santa Catarina. You are assuming that he was refering only to the population of "immigrant" origin. In fact, I really doubt Garcia made reseaches about the other several populations of immigrant descent in Brazil and Argentina to compare them with the Italian one. I don't think he lost his time to know the percentage of descendants of Thais in Argentina and Brazil. Opinoso (talk) 02:14, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Opinoso, everybody knows that you made a good faith error here. García wouldn't make such a ridiculous statement, when even the fantasist sources that inflate the figure of Italian Brazilians give much smaller proportions. The combined population of Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul is over 14 million people; 60% of this is 8.5 million. The population of São Paulo is about 33 million; 38% of it is over 12.5 million people; this summed would be 21 million people, when he says they are only 18 million in all of Brazil. So, please, don't, out of sheer stubborness, make yourself a fool by insisting in an interpretation that is so obviously wrong. It is 60% tra le origini immigratorie, not tra la populazione di Rio Grande do Sul. Ninguém (talk) 02:27, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

 * I have corrected the information, to reflect what García actually says. Ninguém (talk) 13:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

And so that there remain no doubts about it, here is the sentence where García says that Italians were 60% of the immigrants to Argentina (page 3 of his paper):

 * Un 60% degli immigrati erano italiani; prima delle regioni del nord, poi della Calabria, la Sicilia, la Campania e le Marche, e infine anche delle regioni del centro, anche se in proporzione assai minore. Or, in English, Some 60% of the immigrants were Italian; first from the Northern region, then from Calabria, Sicilia, Campania and Marche, and finally from the Central region, even if in quite smaller proportions.

This is what he means when he talks about livello argentino concerning Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul. Ninguém (talk) 14:07, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Spanish Brazilians
An IP, 200.251.176.140, whose contributions are very similar to a registered editor's (if they are the same person, I would politely ask that they use their registered account), has reinserted into the article those two ideas:

 * 1. That the Spanish men in "the population there was a result from the mixture of Spanish and Portuguese men with Amerindian women" were in fact "Spanish Brazilians"; and

 * 2. That the Spanish Jesuits in "European presence in the region started in 1627 with Spanish Jesuits" were also "Spanish Brazilian" Jesuits.

Both these ideas are utterly false. The supposed Spanish men in the region were not Brazilian, since the region didn't even belong to Brazil, or Portugal; if they existed, they were either actual Spaniards or South American criollos, culturally Spanish. The same for the Jesuits. In 1627, the misiones region was part of the Spanish empire, not of Brazil or the Portuguese empire. Ninguém (talk) 16:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

The same IP has, earlier, removed the following from the article:

 * These speculations about a supposed Spanish predominance among the population of Southwestern Rio Grande do Sul are widely spread, but they contradict the historic knowledge about the region. In fact, there was always very smallish Spanish colonial presence there, in practice restricted to Jesuit initiatives towards the Amerindian populations, which, of course, had no genetic impact in the demographic composition. On the other hand, it is well established that it is Northern Uruguay that has always had an important Luso-Brazilian presence, which in fact impacts until nowadays its language, not the other way round .

Arguing that the source does not "say this".

This seems a complete inversion of the burden of proof. If there was any Spanish colonial presence in modern Rio Grande do Sul, this should be established with sources. Up to now, there isn't any evidence that the Spaniards founded a single town in modern Rio Grande do Sul (on the contrary, evidence of a demographic Portuguese presence there abounds, such as the foundation of Rio Grande, Rio Pardo, Viamão, and Porto Alegre; in fact, even in Uruguay itself, such as Sacramento and San Carlos), or that they settled the region in any other way; the only "Spanish" presence there were the Jesuit missions, which were not populated by Spaniards, and the military invasion in the 18th century, which was not followed by any actual populating measures. If the Spaniards actually settled Rio Grande do Sul, this definitely would need a source (which, it seems, doesn't exist); not the other way round, requiring a source that says that they didn't, as if the default was the positive. Ninguém (talk) 16:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

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Edit request
I was thinking in editing the beginning. Because it says "great river of the south" but in portuguese, "Grande" means "Big"

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title: Talk:Rio Grande do Sul


text:
Andrew V. McLaglen

Andrew Victor McLaglen (July 28, 1920 – August 30, 2014) was a British-born American film and television director, known for Westerns and adventure films, often starring John Wayne or James Stewart.

According to one obituary "His career in many ways mirrored that of Ted Post, another inexhaustible director of series television and undemanding movies: reliable rather than stylish, both were nimble soldiers of fortune renowned for bringing work in on time and on budget... Like the best journeymen, he took us on some heroic, enjoyable excursions. "

Early life and career
McLaglen was born in London, the son of British-American actor Victor McLaglen and his wife, Enid Lamont, who had moved to Hollywood in the early 1920s, shortly after his birth. From a film family that included eight uncles and an aunt, McLaglen grew up on movie sets with his parents as well as John Wayne and John Ford. He attended the Black-Foxe Military Institute, the Carl Curtis School, the Cate School in Santa Barbara and the University of Virginia.

He was rated 4-F during his World War II enlistment exam. McLaglen explained "I was as good as in the Army, you know, except when it came to my height. I stood on a scale during the induction physical and the little guy who was taking my height had a stool he had to stand on ...I was six feet seven. ...The little guy didn’t know what to do. I’ll always remember that he didn’t say a word. He just got down and took a little yellow pad, and he wrote “4F” (unfit for military service because of a physical handicap) on it and gave it to me. ...instead of being in the Army, I spent four years chasing ring corrugations for the P38 all over the factory at Lockheed.

Assistant director
When the war ended, he wrote to Republic Pictures asking for a job and was made an assistant on Love, Honor and Goodbye (1945). He worked for two years as a general clerk at Republic on movies such as Dakota (1945) then became a second assistant director.

He was an assistant on two Budd Boetticher films, Killer Shark (1950) and Bullfighter and the Lady (1951); on the latter he was promoted to first assistant director. He was 2nd AD on John Ford's The Quiet Man (1952) with his father, and 1st AD on Wild Stallion (1952), Here Come the Marines (1952), Big Jim McLain (1952) with John Wayne, Hellgate (1952), Kansas Pacific (1953), and Fort Vengeance (1953).

He was assistant director on a series of films for John Wayne's company Batjac: Plunder of the Sun (1953), Island in the Sky (1954), The High and the Mighty (1954), Track of the Cat (1954) and Blood Alley (1954).

Debut features
After several more assistant director jobs, McLaglen directed his first film, Man in the Vault (1956), written by Burt Kennedy.

It was followed by Gun the Man Down (1956), a western B movie with James Arness, whom McLaglen got to know making Big Jim McLain; it also starred Angie Dickinson and Harry Carey Jr. He was going to direct Seven Men from Now (1956) but the job went to Boetticher; McLaglen was credited as a producer. McLaglen had impressed James Arness who arranged for the director to start helming episodes of Gunsmoke. McLaglen directed The Abductors (1957) starring his father Victor.

Television and low budget features
In the late 1950s and early 1960s McLaglen focused on television directing, prolifically directing episodes of The Lineup, Hotel de Paree, Perry Mason (7), Gunslinger (5), Everglades!, Rawhide (6), 116 episodes of Have Gun – Will Travel with Richard Boone, The Lieutenant (4), The Virginian (2), The Travels of Jaimie McPheeters, Wagon Train, and  96 episodes of Gunsmoke. He directed his father in episodes of Rawhide and Have Gun will Travel.

During this time he directed two low budget children's films for Robert Lippert released through 20th Century Fox, Freckles (1960) and The Little Shepherd of Kingdom Come (1960). In 1960 McLaglen said he was earning between $57,000 and $59,000 a year.

Focus on feature films
His first big budget feature film as director was McLintock! (1963) starring John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara. McLaglen later said " that put me in the big time." The movie, his first of five starring Wayne, was a big success and led to McLaglen being offered another studio feature, Shenandoah (1965), starring James Stewart. It was another success. McLaglen followed it with The Rare Breed (1966), again with Stewart. That year he said that now he was "supposed to be an outdoor specialist. I'm not knocking it if that's the course fate has allowed I'm to following the course of course but I but personally I don't feel relegated to that kind of picture.

He directed Monkeys, Go Home! (1967), a Disney movie; The Way West (1967) an epic Western with Kirk Douglas; The Ballad of Josie (1967), a comic Western with Doris Day, made at Universal; the war story The Devil's Brigade (1968) with William Holden, for producer David Wolper; and the western Bandolero! starring Stewart, Raquel Welch, and Dean Martin at Fox.

McLaglen then made three films in a row with John Wayne: Hellfighters (1969), a biopic of Red Adair, for Universal; The Undefeated (1969), a Western with Rock Hudson; and Chisum (1970), a Western for Batjac and Warners.

McLaglen continued to specialise in Westerns. He did One More Train to Rob (1971) with George Peppard, under the director's contract with Universal, then Fools' Parade (1971) with James Stewart and George Kennedy, which McLaglen made for his own company through Columbia and said was his favourite film

He did Something Big starring Dean Martin; and Cahill U.S. Marshal (1973) with Wayne and Kennedy. "I don't really have any formula," he said in 1971. "I just use myself as a guide."

Return to television
McLaglen says "Then I had a little bit of a lapse" in his career. He returned to television doing episodes of Banacek with Peppard, Hec Ramsey with Richard Boone and Amy Prentiss. He made some TV movies The Log of the Black Pearl (1975) and Stowaway to the Moon (1975) then returned to features with Mitchell (1975) with Joe Don Baker, and The Last Hard Men (1976) with Charlton Heston and James Coburn.

McLaglen made some more TV movies, Banjo Hackett: Roamin' Free (1976), Royce (1976), Murder at the World Series (1977), and Trail of Danger (1978). He also directed episodes of Code R, The Fantastic Journey, and Nashville 99,

Adventure films
McLaglen was hired to make an adventure film, The Wild Geese (1978), with Richard Burton, Roger Moore and Richard Harris. McLaglen said the film " was a whole new start for my career". It was a huge success, and McLaglen then made Breakthrough (1979), a war film with Burton; North Sea Hijack (1979), an action film with Moore; The Sea Wolves (1980), a war movie from Euan Lloyd, the producer of The Wild Geese, with Moore and Gregory Peck.

McLaglen returned to television to make The Shadow Riders (1982) with Tom Selleck; The Blue and the Gray, an elaborate mini series about the Civil War; and Travis McGee (1983) starring Sam Elliott as Travis McGee, a pilot for a proposed series.

He directed Brooke Shields in Sahara (1983), then did two works for TV: The Dirty Dozen: Next Mission (1985) and On Wings of Eagles (1986).

His last feature films were Return from the River Kwai (1989) and Eye of the Widow (1991). McLaglen then retired and moved to San Juan Island, where he directed for the San Juan Island Community Theater.

Later years
McLaglen later moved to Friday Harbor, San Juan Island, Washington State, directing plays for San Juan Island Community Theater.

Personal life
McLaglen and his first wife, Margarita Harrison, had one child: Sharon McLaglen Lannan (born 1944).

He and his second wife, actress Veda Ann Borg were married in 1946 and separated in 1954, divorcing in 1957. They had one child: Andrew Victor McLaglen II (August 3, 1954 – January 16, 2006).

He and his third wife, Sally Pierce, had two children, Josh McLaglen, an assistant director, and Mary McLaglen, a production manager and producer.

Death
Andrew V. McLaglen died August 30, 2014, age 94, in Friday Harbor, Washington.

Films directed

 * Gun the Man Down — Batjac film (1956)
 * Man in the Vault — Batjac Film (1956)
 * The Abductors (1957)
 * Freckles (1960)
 * The Little Shepherd of Kingdom Come (1961)
 * McLintock! — With John Wayne (1963)
 * Shenandoah With James Stewart (1965)
 * The Rare Breed With James Stewart (1966)
 * Monkeys, Go Home! (1967)
 * The Way West (1967)
 * The Ballad of Josie (1967)
 * The Devil's Brigade (1968)
 * Bandolero! With James Stewart (1968)
 * Hellfighters — With John Wayne (1968)
 * The Undefeated — With John Wayne (1969)
 * Chisum — With John Wayne (1970)
 * One More Train to Rob (1971)
 * Fools' Parade With James Stewart (1971)
 * Something Big (1971)
 * Cahill U.S. Marshal — With John Wayne (1973)
 * The Log of the Black Pearl — TV movie (1975)
 * Stowaway to the Moon — TV movie (1975)
 * Mitchell (1975)
 * The Last Hard Men (1976)
 * Banjo Hackett: Roamin’ Free - TV movie (1976)
 * Royce — TV movie (1976)
 * Murder at the World Series — TV movie (1977)
 * Trail of Danger — TV movie (1978)
 * The Wild Geese (1978)
 * North Sea Hijack (1979)
 * Breakthrough (1979)
 * The Sea Wolves (1980)
 * The Shadow Riders — TV movie (1982)
 * Sahara (1983)
 * Travis McGee (film) — TV movie (1983)
 * The Dirty Dozen: Next Mission — TV movie (1985)
 * On Wings of Eagles — TV miniseries (1986)
 * Return from the River Kwai (1989)
 * Eye of the Widow (1991)

Television directed

 * Gunsmoke — 96 episodes (1956–1965)
 * Have Gun – Will Travel — 116 episodes (1957–1963)
 * Perry Mason — 7 episodes — (1958–1960)
 * Rawhide — 6 episodes (1959–1962)
 * Gunslinger — 5 episodes (1961)
 * The Virginian — episode — Smile of a Dragon (1964)
 * Wagon Train — episode — The Silver Lady (1965)
 * The Wonderful World of Disney — 5 episodes (1970–1978)
 * Banacek — episode — The Three Million Dollar Piracy (1973)
 * Amy Prentiss — episode — The Desperate World of Jane Doe (1974)
 * Hec Ramsey — episode — Scar Tissue (1974)
 * Banacek — episode — Rocket to Oblivion (1974)
 * The Blue and the Gray — episodes — Chapter One Parts 1–3 (1982)

Miscellaneous contributions

 * Dakota — production assistant (uncredited) (1945)
 * Bullfighter and the Lady — assistant director (1951)
 * Big Jim McLain — assistant director (1952)
 * The Quiet Man — 2nd Assistant Director (uncredited) (1952)
 * Hondo — unit production manager (1953)
 * Plunder of the Sun — assistant director (1953)
 * This Is Your Life — episode — Victor McLaglen — himself (1953)
 * Island in the Sky — assistant director (1953)
 * Kansas Pacific — assistant director (1953)
 * The High and the Mighty — assistant director (1954)
 * Track of the Cat — assistant director (1954)
 * Blood Alley — assistant director (1955)
 * Seven Men From Now — Producer (1956)
 * This Is Your Life — episode — Ken Curtis — himself (1972)
 * The Hollywood Greats — episode — John Wayne — himself (1984)
 * The Making of "The Quiet Man" — Video documentary short — himself (1992)
 * The Quiet Man: The Joy of Ireland — Video Documentary Short — himself (2002)
 * American Masters — episode — John Ford/John Wayne: The Filmmaker and the Legend — himself (2006)
 * 100 Years of John Wayne — TV Movie documentary short — himself (2007)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Andrew V. McLaglen


text:
Talk:Mark Currie (games developer)

What does mean? Hydroksyde 06:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mark Currie (games developer)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Post to Post AM

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Dmcdevit·t 03:36, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Post to Post AM
This site was created as a plug for a new discussion forum dedicated to a radio show, Coast to Coast AM. Aside from POV wording, it featured unsubstantiated claims that it was related to a previous, official forum though it appears to have simply co-opted the name. It was created in April and has been pretty desolate, despite it's creator spamming Usenet repeatedly. Does not warrant a Wikipedia article, IMHO, and the original Art Bell message board was simply titled 'Post to Post' (no "AM"). Yesitis 06:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Where'd the text go?  Dcarrano 16:14, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * It was all removed, (in two stages by Yesitis prior to the VfD tag. However, a nice anon IP adress has replaced the text. Still, I do not believe that either of the incarnations (the original, about a forum, or the second, about a two week old webpage) are notably enough to warant a page. Delete --Icelight 16:47, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah. Delete, non-notable forum.  Dcarrano 16:55, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per above royblumy 03:06, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Tongzhou, Beijing

Tongzhou is a district of Beijing. It is located in southeast Beijing and considered the eastern gateway to the nation's capital. Downtown Tongzhou itself lies around 20 km east of central Beijing, at the northern end of the Grand Canal (on the junction between the Tonghui Canal and the Northern Canal) and at the easternmost end of Chang'an Avenue. The entire district covers an area of 906 km2, or 6% of Beijing's total area. It had a population of 673,952 at the 2000 Census, and has seen significant growth and development since then, growing to a population of 1,184,000 at the 2010 Census and 1,840,295 at the 2020 census. The district is subdivided into four subdistricts, ten towns, and one ethnic township.

History
Tongzhou was founded in 195 BC during the Western Han Dynasty under the name of Lu (路) County, although there is evidence for human settlement in the Neolithic. At the start of the Eastern Han Dynasty the character Lu by which it was known was altered by the addition of a water radical to become Lu (潞). In 1151 under the Jin dynasty Lu County was renamed Tongzhou, roughly meaning 'the place for passing through', in recognition of its importance as the land and water approach to Beijing.

Ming, Qing & Republican era
In July 1937, subsequent to the infamous Marco Polo Bridge Incident, Tongzhou became another site of determined Chinese resistance. In the Tongzhou mutiny troops of the nominally Japanese-puppet East Hebei Army rebelled and came to the aid of hard-pressed Kuomintang troops, and attacked the Japanese garrison. In the fall of Tongzhou to the Nationalists, many civilians were tortured and murdered as well as captured Japanese military personnel.

People's Republic
The place name changed to Tong County when the area was placed under the new municipal region of Beijing in 1914. It again reverted to "Tongzhou" when the area was upgraded in 1997 to a district.

On 11 July 2015, Tongzhou became the second administrative seat of Beijing as a "sub-administrative center" for the municipality. Numerous local government departments will be moved to Tongzhou to reduce crowding within the city center of Beijing.

Economy
In 2017, the regional GDP of the district was 75.8 billion yuan, with GDP per capita at 50.3 thousand yuan.

Geography and environment
Tongzhou District borders the Beijing districts of Shunyi, Chaoyang and Daxing, Wuqing District of Tianjin Municipality, and Langfang City (both the Sanhe City−Dachang County−Xianghe County exclave and Guangyang District) of Hebei province, and is 12 miles from Tiananmen Square and 10 miles from Beijing Capital International Airport.

Tongzhou is situated on the North China Plain with an average elevation of 20 m. Its climate belongs to the mild temperate zone, with distinct seasons including hot summers and freezing winters. Dust storms are common. It has an annual mean temperature of 11.3 °C. and 620 mm of rainfall. Several large rivers, among them the Wenyu, the Liangshui and Chaobai flow through the district.

Climate
Tongzhou District has a humid continental climate (Köppen climate classification Dwa). The average annual temperature in Tongzhou is 13.4 C. The average annual rainfall is 526.7 mm with July as the wettest month. The temperatures are highest on average in July, at around 27.2 C, and lowest in January, at around -2.5 C.

Administrative divisions
Tongzhou District is divided into six subdistricts, ten towns, and one ethnic township. Two of the towns of which carry the "area" (地区) label.

On May 11, 2020, Tongzhou District Government made a series of changes to its administrative divisions by adding the following subdistricts:

 * Wenjing Subdistrict (文景街道)
 * Jiukeshu Subdistrict (九棵树街道)
 * Linheli Subdistrict (临河里街道)
 * Yangzhuang Subdistrict (杨庄街道)
 * Luyi Subdistrict (潞邑街道)

Transportation
Downtown Tongzhou is connected to downtown Beijing by Jingtong Expressway and several metro lines operated by Beijing Subway. Beijing's Fifth and Sixth Ring Road are roughly equidistant from Tongzhou's CBD. Highways lead to Shenyang, Harbin and Tianjin/Tanggu.

Metro
Tongzhou is currently served by four metro lines operated by Beijing Subway:

 * – Wuzixueyuanlu, Tongzhou Beiguan, Beiyunhe West, Beiyunhe East, Haojiafu, Dongxiayuan, Lucheng
 * – Wansheng Xi (West), Wansheng Dong (East), Qun Fang, Gao Lou Jin, Hua Zhuang,
 * – Tongzhou Beiyuan,, , , , , Hua Zhuang,
 * – Tongjinanlu, Jinghailu, Ciqu South, Ciqu,

Suburban railway
Tongzhou is also served by two suburban railway lines:
 * – Tongzhou, Qiaozhuang East
 * – Tongzhou West

Industry and tourism
There are seven industrial zones with a total area of 64 km2 in Tongzhou, focusing on manufacturing and high-tech industries. Downtown Tongzhou is earmarked for redevelopment into a comprehensive central business district with an emphasis on consumer retail. In agriculture, the district emphasizes on horticulture, fruit-farming, seed-growing and aquatics. The district government is currently promoting Tongzhou's position at the head of the Grand Canal to attract tourists to its Grand Canal Cultural Park.

The Songzhuang artists' village, where many Chinese contemporary artists live and work, is located in the Tongzhou District.

The Universal Beijing Resort is also located in Tongzhou, and opened on 20 September 2021. Canal Business District is under construction. Headquarters of Beijing branches of Central Government-owned Enterprises and Headquarters of Beijing Government-owned Enterprises will move to Tongzhou. Canal Business District plans to develop industrial clusters of headquarters economy and wealth management.

Gallery of the construction site of Canal Business District:

Education and health
Tongzhou has good education facilities including 113 kindergartens, 141 primary schools, 51 high schools and many adult education colleges. It also boasts the Beijing Materials Institute, Beijing University of Technology and the Beijing Institute of Music. Its hospitals include a specialist tuberculosis treatment center and a hospital specializing in traditional Chinese medicine.

Private schools include:
 * Beijing Shuren Ribet Private School

title: Tongzhou, Beijing


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander von thurn taxis

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. humblefool®Deletion Reform 00:57, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Alexander von thurn taxis
The royal family is notable - (ill formed links in List of entities that have issued postage stamps). This squabble among minor members of the family about the position of von is definitely non-notable. -- RHaworth 06:37, 2005 July 18 (UTC)

 * Delete The family is notable but this page is pretty much a vanity piece. Any information here could be added (in an amended form) to the "von Thurn und Taxis" article. However since they are filthy rich people they can pay someone to do it for them. Hamster Sandwich 06:58, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Thurn and Taxis. --Angr/undefined 07:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete self promotion. JamesBurns 10:15, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Lectonar 11:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, person's existence is unverifiable and no claim to notability asserted in any event. Dcarrano 16:11, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per above royblumy 03:06, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, content is apparently nonsense. Martg76 22:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Casillas, Guatemala

Casillas is a town and municipality in the Guatemalan department of Santa Rosa. It serves as the municipal seat for the surrounding municipality of the same name. The town's population was 7,698 at the 2018 census. The spoken language is Spanish.

Nearby villages include El Jute, Minas, Guadalupe, Chapas, San Juan Tapalapa, El Palmar. The nearest town is Nueva Santa Rosa.

The population is mainly Roman Catholic and the town's festivities to honour the "Cristo Negro" take place from January 12 to January 16. The fair consists of many events, including dances, a rodeo, and carnival rides.

Climate
The municipality has a warm-temperate climate (Köppen Classification).

title: Casillas, Guatemala


text:
User:BurningTheGround

I support the GNAA!

title: User:BurningTheGround


text:
Prince Karl Anton August of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck

Prince Karl Anton August of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (10 August 1727, in Marburg – 12 September 1759, in Stettin) was the son of Peter August, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck and Princess Sophie of Hesse-Philippsthal.

Marriage and issue
On 30 May 1754, Anton (as he was known) married Countess Frederica Charlotte of Dohna-Schlodien in Leistenau (3 July 1738 – 21 April 1785) in Königsberg. The couple had one child, Friedrich Karl Ludwig, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck (20 August 1757 – 24 April 1816).

Anton would have inherited the dukedom of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck had it not been for his early death by wounds suffered at the Battle of Kunersdorf. His father Peter outlived him, so the dukedom was passed on from Peter to Anton's only son, Friedrich.


text:
User talk:Boche

Welcome to Wikipedia! I look forward to your contributions to the work. As a new user you may find the following References & Useful Links to be helpful:

 * Tutorial
 * Policies and Guidelines.
 * Neutral point of view
 * Manual of Style
 * Help - Reference material
 * Help Desk - Post a question

Happy editing! --DannyMuse 06:40, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Boche, I just wanted to comment that I really appreciate your hard work on editing the various pages, your respectful dialogue and your cooperative attitude, even when we disagree. Thanks! --DannyMuse 01:10, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

 * My pleasure. I thank you for your encouragement. I likewise appreciate your efforts to be balanced and open. boche 04:23, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

-- Boche, I noticed you are trying to help in the discussion of calling Jehovah's Witnesses Christian. This issue has come up for vote and the majority on the site says they are. If user 128.214.157.160 refuses compromise the Wikipedia Adminstrator http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Imaglang Neigel von Teighen has offer to help. Not on the issues of religion but on Wikipedia's policys.--Saujad 01:47, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Myself, I'm all for a compromise in this matter. We should just discuss about expressions we can agree on, not quarrel about expressions we cannot agree on. Voting between two POVs is silly. 82.181.158.247 21:41, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

A Look at Alternative Therapies
Awake! of October 22, 2000, pages 9-10

"Opening a professional dialogue between physicians and practitioners of alternative medicine is crucial to better health care for those patients who choose alternative therapies."

THAT statement was printed in The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in its issue of November 11, 1998. The article stated: "This need [of dialogue] can be expected to grow with use of alternative therapies, particularly as health insurance plans include such therapies in the benefits they offer."

More and more patients are employing alternative therapies while availing themselves of more conventional forms of treatment. Yet, some fail to keep their medical doctor informed of what they are doing. Therefore, Tufts University Health & Nutrition Letter of April 2000 urged: "You should act in your best interest by working with your doctor rather than privately." It added: "Whether he or she approves of your approach, you still stand to gain by sharing the information."

This was said because of possible health risks when certain herbs are combined with conventional therapies. Recognizing that some of their patients are choosing alternative therapies, many health professionals strive not to allow their own opinions about health care to prevent them from working along with alternative therapists for the benefit of the patient.

To give our readers an idea of alternative therapies now used by growing numbers of people in many countries, we are providing a brief description of a few of them. Please note, however, that Awake! does not endorse any of these or any other form of medical treatment.

Herbal Remedies

These remedies are perhaps the most common form of alternative medicine. Despite the use of herbs in medicine throughout the centuries, only a relatively small number of plant species have been carefully studied by scientists. An even smaller number of plants and their extracts have been studied so thoroughly that information is available on their safety and efficacy. The majority of information about herbs is based on experience from their historical use.

In recent years, however, there have been a number of scientific studies that show the usefulness of certain herbs in treating such conditions as mild depression, age-related memory loss, and symptoms of benign prostate enlargement. One herb that has been studied is black cohosh, which is sometimes known as black snakeroot, bugbane, or rattleroot. American Indians boiled the root and used it in connection with menstrual problems and childbirth. According to Harvard Women's Health Watch of April 2000, recent studies suggest that a standardized German commercial black cohosh extract may be effective "in relieving menopausal symptoms."

It seems that much of the demand for such natural remedies is based on the perception that they are safer than synthetic drugs. While this may often be true, some herbs are associated with side effects, especially if they are used in combination with other medications. For example, a popular herb that is promoted as a natural decongestant and weight-loss product can increase blood pressure and heart rate.

There are also herbs that will increase the rate at which a patient bleeds. If these herbs are used in combination with "blood-thinning" medical drugs, serious problems can result. People with chronic illnesses, such as diabetes or high blood pressure, or those taking other medications should be careful about using herbal remedies.-See the accompanying box.

Another concern with herbal remedies is the lack of consistent quality assurance in their production. In recent years there have been reports of products tainted with heavy metals and other contaminants. Additionally, some herbal products have been found to contain little or none of the ingredients on the label. These examples stress the need to buy herbal products, as well as any other health products, from reputable and reliable sources.

Dietary Supplements

Dietary supplements, such as vitamins and minerals, have reportedly been helpful in preventing and treating a number of health problems, including anemia and osteoporosis-and even in preventing some birth defects. Government-recommended daily doses of vitamins and minerals are considered to be relatively safe and useful.

On the other hand, megadoses promoted for the treatment of some illnesses may be hazardous to health. They can possibly interfere with the absorption or activity of other nutrients and can also cause serious side effects. This possibility, as well as the lack of substantial evidence supporting the use of megavitamins, should not be ignored.

Homeopathy

Homeopathy was developed in the 1700's as a kinder, gentler type of treatment than those in popular use at the time. Homeopathy is based on the principle that "like cures like" and on the minimum-dose theory. Homeopathic remedies are prepared by repeatedly diluting a healing agent-at times, diluting it so much that not even one molecule of the original material remains.

Nonetheless, when compared with the use of a placebo, homeopathic remedies were found to have some effect in treating such things as asthma, allergies, and childhood diarrhea. Homeopathic products are considered quite safe, since they are so diluted. An article published in the March 4, 1998, issue of JAMA observed: "For many patients suffering from chronic problems that lack a specific diagnosis, homeopathy may be an important and useful treatment option. If used within its limits, homeopathy could complement modern medicine as, 'another tool in the bag.'" In potentially life-threatening emergencies, however, it may be wiser to use more conventional medical treatments.

Chiropractic

There are a number of alternative therapies using body manipulation. Chiropractic is among the most commonly used alternative treatments, especially in the United States. It is based on the idea that healing can be promoted when spinal misalignments are corrected. This is why chiropractors specialize in spinal manipulation to adjust the vertebrae of their patients.

Conventional medicine is not always able to provide relief of lower back discomfort. On the other hand, some patients who receive chiropractic treatments report a high degree of satisfaction. Evidence to support the use of chiropractic manipulation for conditions other than pain is scarce.

Significantly, there is a low incidence of side effects with chiropractic manipulation by a skilled practitioner. Yet, at the same time, a person should be aware that neck manipulation is associated with a risk of serious complications, including stroke and paralysis. To reduce the risk of complications, some experts recommend that a person have a thorough examination to see if a specific manipulation style is safe for him.

Massage

The benefits of massage have long been recognized in almost all cultures. Its use is even reported on in the Bible. (Esther 2:12) "Massage techniques play an important part in traditional Chinese and Indian medical care," observed the British Medical Journal (BMJ) of November 6, 1999. "European massage was systematised in the early 19th century by Per Henrik Ling, who developed what is now known as Swedish massage."

Massage is credited with relaxing the muscles, improving circulation of the blood, and removing toxins that have accumulated in the tissues. Doctors now prescribe massage for such ailments as back pain, headaches, and digestive disorders. Most people who receive massage comment on how good it makes them feel. According to Dr. Sandra McLanahan, "eighty percent of disease is stress-related, and massage reduces stress."

"Most massage techniques have a low risk of adverse effects," reported BMJ. "Contraindications to massage are based largely on common sense (for example, avoiding friction on burns or massage in a limb with deep vein thrombosis) . . . There is no evidence that massage in patients with cancer increases metastatic spread."

"As massage becomes more mainstream, consumers are becoming concerned about a massage therapist's credentials, and they should be," noted E. Houston LeBrun, past president of the American Massage Therapy Association. BMJ advised that to avoid unprofessional behavior, "patients should ensure that practitioners are registered with an appropriate regulatory body." A report last year noted that therapists were licensed in 28 states in the United States.

Acupuncture

Acupuncture is a healing technique that has become quite popular throughout the world. While the term "acupuncture" covers several different techniques, it most commonly involves the use of fine needles inserted into specific areas of the body to achieve a therapeutic response. Research over the past several decades suggests that acupuncture may work in some cases by releasing neurochemicals, such as endorphins, which can help relieve pain and inflammation.

Some research suggests that acupuncture may be effective in treating quite a number of ailments and that it is a safe alternative to the use of anesthetics. The World Health Organization recognizes the use of acupuncture in the treatment of 104 conditions. And a committee selected by the U.S. National Institutes of Health cited evidence that acupuncture is an acceptable therapy in the treatment of postoperative pain, muscle pain, menstrual cramps, and nausea and vomiting resulting from chemotherapy or pregnancy.

While serious side effects are rare with acupuncture, individuals may experience a sensation of soreness, numbness, or tingling. Proper sterilization of needles or the use of disposable needles can minimize the risk of infection. Many acupuncturists lack the medical skills needed to make a proper diagnosis or to recommend other more appropriate therapies. It would be unwise to ignore this lack of diagnostic skills, especially if choosing acupuncture to help relieve the symptoms of chronic conditions.

The Choices Are Numerous

The foregoing provides only a sampling of the many therapies that are now commonly referred to as alternative in some places. In the future some of these, as well as others not reviewed here, may well be considered conventional, even as they already are in some parts of the world. Others, of course, may fall into disuse or even disrepute.

Unfortunately, pain and sickness are very much a part of the human experience, even as the Bible so accurately states: "We know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now." (Romans 8:22) It is only to be expected that humans would seek relief. But where can we turn? Please consider some observations that may be of help to you in your choice of medical treatment.

[Box/Picture on page 8]

Combining Herbs With Medicines-WHAT ARE THE RISKS?

Often the public has been warned against taking certain prescription drugs in combination or taking them with alcoholic beverages. Is there also a danger in taking particular herbs along with prescription medications? How common is this practice?

An article in The Journal of the American Medical Association spoke of "the simultaneous use of prescription medications with herbs." It noted: "Among the 44% of adults who said they regularly take prescription medications, nearly 1 (18.4%) in 5 reported the concurrent use of at least 1 herbal product, a high-dose vitamin, or both." It is important to be informed about the possible dangers of such a practice.

Those taking certain herbal products should also be concerned when undergoing a medical procedure requiring anesthesia. Dr. John Neeld, president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, explained: "There are anecdotal reports that some popular herbs, including ginseng and St. John's wort, can cause wide swings in blood pressure. That could be very dangerous during anesthesia."

This doctor added: "Others, such as ginkgo biloba, ginger and feverfew, can interfere with blood clotting, a particular hazard during epidural anesthesia-if there's bleeding near the spinal cord, it could cause paralysis. St. John's wort can also intensify the effects of some narcotic or anesthetic drugs."

Clearly, it is vital to know about the potential danger of taking particular herbs and medicines in combination. Pregnant and nursing women should especially be aware of the possible harm that their offspring may suffer as a result of the combination of certain herbs and medicines. Patients, therefore, are encouraged to discuss with their health-care provider what medications they take, whether these be alternative or otherwise.

[Pictures on page 7]

Certain herbs have been useful in treating health problems

Black cohosh

Saint-John's-wort

[Credit Line]

© Bill Johnson/Visuals Unlimited

[Picture on page 7]

For the best results, patients and health-care professionals need to work together

--

Vote for JW structure
Please vote for or against the adoption of the proposed structure for WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses on the talk page and sign your name with ~. Thanks! --K. AKA Konrad West TALK 01:11, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Invitation
I invite you to take a look at Christianity Knowledge Base and join our project!

Thanks!!! 70.30.57.80 06:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Jehovah's Witnesses project
I have started a discussion regarding the content wikipedia has regarding the Jehovah's Witnesses at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses. Seeing that you are listed as a member of that project, I would appreciate any responses to the material there you would like to make. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 14:35, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Ichthus: January 2012
 In this issue...

- Ichthus is published by WikiProject Christianity For submissions and subscriptions contact the Newsroom
 * From the Editor
 * What are You doing For Lent?
 * Fun and Exciting Contest Launched
 * Spotlight on WikiProject Catholicism

title: User talk:Boche


text:
User talk:Xapxivos

Welcome
Welcome to Wikipedia, the greatest encyclopedia on Earth! You seem to be off to a good start. Hopefully you will soon join the vast army of Wikipediholics! You may wish to review the welcome page, tutorial, and stylebook, as well as the avoiding common mistakes and Wikipedia is not pages. You may also want to check out Merge, for information about merging, renaming and moving pages. The Wikipedia directory is also quite useful. In addition, you might want to add yourself to the new user log; if you made any edits before getting an account, you may wish to assign those to your username.

By the way, an important tip: To sign comments on talk pages, simply type four tildes, like this: ~~~~. This will automatically add your name and the time after your comments.

Finally, here are some open tasks:

Other links for reference: Wikiquette, image copyright tags, Merge Hope to see you around the Wiki! Remember to be Bold! with your edits, and if you have any questions whatsoever, feel free to contact me on my talk page! ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 06:41, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Image:Reservor.gif
Thank you for uploading Image:Reservor.gif. Its copyright status is unclear, so it may have to be deleted. Please leave a note on the image page about the source of the image. See Image copyright tags, for a list of copyright tags, that you can use. If you created this/these image(s) yourself, you can use the tag. Thank you. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 06:41, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Reservoir.gif
Thank you for uploading File:Reservoir.gif. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created [ in your upload log]. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 13:34, 2 May 2010 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:34, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

File:Capacitor input filter.png missing description details
Dear uploader: The media file you uploaded as: is missing a description and/or other details on its image description page. If possible, please add this information. This will help other editors make better use of the image, and it will be more informative to readers.
 * File:Capacitor input filter.png

If you have any questions, please see Help:Image page. Thank you. Message delivered by Theo's Little Bot (opt-out) 15:59, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

File:Capacitor input filter.png listed for deletion
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Capacitor input filter.png, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 21:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Capacitor input filter.png
Thank you for uploading File:Capacitor input filter.png. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the page from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of the website's terms of use of its content. If the original copyright holder is a party unaffiliated with the website, that author should also be credited. Please add this information by editing the image description page.

If the necessary information is not added within the next days, the image will be deleted. If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem.

Please refer to the image use policy to learn what images you can or cannot upload on Wikipedia. Please also check any other files you have uploaded to make sure they are correctly tagged. Here is a [ list of your uploads]. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 00:19, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

title: User talk:Xapxivos


text:
Talk:Matthew Cowley

Untitled
I have changed the Published Books to Published Works because not all publications are books.

I joined the sentence fragment "Upon his release in September of 1945." with the succeeding sentence, and restructured the sentence some. One does not "replace" a "vacancy", one "fills" it. --Mike 18:48, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

External link
As per WP:ELBURDEN, disputed links should be excluded by default until there is consensus for inclusion. please explain what unique value you feel the disputed link provides when there are already images of both the gravestone and memorial in the article. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:24, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The link to F.A.G. provides better images. WP:RSP allows for some uses of the website, so the requirement for consensus does not always apply. Sundayclose (talk) 18:47, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

 * There is no difference in image quality sufficient to justify inclusion of the link, and no such exemption to the consensus requirement. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:50, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * We each have an opinion, and yours carries no more weight than mine. And in the event you continue repeating yourself from other talk pages. ELBURDEN not a "tiebreaker". My last comment unless you say something new or someone else comments. Sundayclose (talk) 19:02, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

 * For clarity, Sundayclose, what policy or guideline do you believe supports your position and actions here, keeping in mind that RSP is neither? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:10, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * For clarity, if I remove every F.A.G. external link for every English Wikipedia article with no discussion, citing ELBURDEN, (1) should that be allowed and, equally important, (2) would it be in the best interest of the spirit of ELBURDEN and IAR? Sundayclose (talk) 22:32, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I anticipate that there are at least some cases in which a link has already been discussed and consensus found for inclusion, meaning that the "burden" of ELBURDEN has been met - on that basis a blanket removal would be ill-advised. But that's not what we're looking at here.
 * Your turn. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * So let me specify: I ask my same question with the qualifier "all English Wikipedia articles for which there has been no discussion of the issue". And by the way, we're not playing "tag, you're it". We're talking about how to improve Wikipedia. So it's nobody's "turn". Sundayclose (talk) 22:48, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

 * I would appreciate an answer to my question anyways. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:52, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I take that to mean you either don't want to answer my question or don't know the answer, although there could be other possiblities I haven't considered. Unless I was wrong in my good-faith assumption that this is not a game for you. If it's a game, I'm not playing. And I would appreciate an answer to my question. Sundayclose (talk) 22:59, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

 * You should take it to mean that I'd really like you to answer the question you're choosing to ignore, rather than going off on hypotheticals. But in the interests of conversation, making any mass contextless edit is a bad idea, and there are other policies that speak to that case - which, again, is not this case. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:10, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Bearing in mind that I agreed with some of the challenges you made to my edits, can you acknowledge that in some articles it was acceptable for me to restore the F.A.G. external link? If so, I think we don't need any further discussion of this issue and I appreciate the discussion, unless again this is a game for you. Sundayclose (talk) 23:14, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

 * I appreciate that in some cases after I posted to the talk page you self-reverted. But the answer to your question is no, because it wasn't. I understand you might disagree with my belief that the articles in question are each not improved by the addition of the link, but that's why ELBURDEN exists - so if we disagree, we have a discussion and arrive at a consensus. At this point we haven't done that, and you haven't come up with any policy-based reason why you restored the links anyways. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:34, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes we disagree, and I think there's no point in further discussion because it seems to me you think every undiscussed addition of the F.A.G. is unacceptable (although you haven't really answered my question), and I could never agree to that. Sometimes that happens. It takes more than two people discussing in some cases. But, like I said, I appreciate the discussion but I think you and I are at an impasse. Have a good day. Sundayclose (talk) 23:40, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

 * That is... not what I said. But in any event, as we have reached an impasse I have removed the link per WP:NOCON. Have a good day. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:36, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I know you didn't say it directly because you didn't answer my question. Feel free to provide an answer. I won't argue for this particular article, but if you begin indiscriminately removing F.A.G. links, we'll be having a more serious discussion. And you have a good day as well. Sundayclose (talk) 23:47, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Matthew Cowley


text:
Margarethe Cammermeyer

Margarethe "Grethe" Cammermeyer (born March 24, 1942) is a Norwegian-American former military officer. She served as a colonel in the Washington National Guard and became a gay rights activist.

Early life and education
Born in Oslo, Norway, she became a United States citizen in 1960. In 1961 she joined the Army Nurse Corps as a student. She received a B.S. in nursing in 1963 from the University of Maryland. At the University of Washington School of Nursing, she earned a master's degree in 1976 and a Ph.D. in 1991.

Career and activism
She had a 15-year marriage to Harvey Hawken and they had four sons. She divorced in 1980. In 1988, when she was 46, she met the woman who later became her wife, Diane Divelbess.

In 1989, responding to a question during a routine security clearance interview, she disclosed that she is a lesbian. The National Guard began military discharge proceedings against her. On June 11, 1992, she was honorably discharged. Cammermeyer filed a lawsuit against the decision in civil court. In June 1994, Judge Thomas Zilly of the United States District Court for the Western District of Washington ruled that her discharge and the ban on gays and lesbians serving in the military were unconstitutional. She returned to the National Guard and served as one of the few openly gay or lesbian people in the U.S. military while the "don't ask don't tell" policy was in effect, until her retirement in 1997.

A television movie about Cammermeyer's story, Serving in Silence, was made in 1995, with Glenn Close starring as Cammermeyer. Its content was largely taken from Cammermeyer's autobiography of the same name.

After retirement, Cammermeyer ran for the United States Congress in Washington's 2nd congressional district in 1998. She won the Democratic primary, but lost in the general election to Republican incumbent Jack Metcalf.

In June 2010, she was appointed to the Defense Advisory Committee on Women in the Services, a committee which is appointed by the United States Secretary of Defense and which reports to the United States Department of Defense.

The Point Foundation announced plans to honor Cammermeyer with its Point Legend Award in April 2011.

In 2012, after same-sex marriage was legalized in Washington state, Cammermeyer and her wife Diane Divelbess became the first same-sex couple to get a license in Island County.

title: Margarethe Cammermeyer