text:
Talk:Ian Blair

Order
Does anyone know the order of which Sir Ian was made a knight? I would assume he's a KBE, but I'd rather be sure. Mackensen (talk) 17:58, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Knight Bachelor, actually. Susvolans (pigs can fly) 17:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

What does "2.2" mean in the clause "...he gained a 2:2 in English Language and English ..."? Avalon 02:51, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Lower Second Class Honours degree. British bachelors' degrees (in most universities) are divided into First Class Honours (First), Upper Second Class Honours (2:1), Lower Second Class Honours (2:2), Third Class Honours (Third), and Pass (with no Honours). -- Necrothesp 10:05, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Added a link to page on British Degree Classifications --JRawle 17:29, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

This page is a blatant example of POV.. Nuke it and start again.
 * Yes Sir. PizzaMargherita 11:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

it's not our fault if this guy is to bad headlines like shit is to flies.
 * Only bad headlines? http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2005/08/01/465324.html
 * Not only POV but also potentially libellous - opening paragraph edited to remove such —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joekiki (talk • contribs) 15:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

In truth i have read article several times now It is in essance correct The guy is and always has been a BUMBLING GLORY HOUND the truth is in his statments but he fantersises a lot to make storys good But over do's thinks to the point of fairy tales The guy is a coward who closes his eyes to real life and takes the glory from the actual heoros i have seen it before and no doubt will again —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.125.8 (talk) 20:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

NPOV tag
This article reads like a massive criticism of Blair which is not POV and hence I have tagged the article17:59, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Totally agree! I am new to Wikipedia and I find this Ian Blair page awful. Surely he can't be that bad!I have looked at Wikipedia in general and thought it informative until I happened upon this one. I think this casts doubt about ALL wikipedia pages as this is that bad. I really don't mind that I have not logged-on, I need someone to defend Wikipedia.

Bob

Everything on the page appears factual, meticulously referenced and relevant. I don't think we should remove major scandals from the bio of a public figure simply because he has accumulated so many. You are free to add any relevant information that casts him in a better light. However, NPOV doesn't dictate that a character must be made to look good. -- Jamougha —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.56.220 (talk) 14:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm re-adding the tag. This article is way over the top in terms of lack of balance. One Night In Hackney  303  20:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

 * We should try to balance, then. i'll see what i can do, but not right now. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

This article is still ridiculously biased. Whilst it is filled with criticisms of Blair, it fails to mention any of the progress made whilst he was Commissioner, such as the significantly lower crime rates. Also very telling is the fact that there appears to be no mention of the outcome of Sir Ronnie Flanagan's report of the investigation into the IT/PR contracts with Andy Miller - he was cleared of any and all wrongdoing. The fact that this information has not included conclusively shows the bias behind this page.

Catherine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.50.47 (talk) 20:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Bias
Frankly this whole page seems as though it has been written by the Daily Mail on behalf of the Conservative Party. It may wellhave been. It is not in the best traditions of Wikipedia to allow itself to be used in this way. Ponkywatts (talk) 23:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

 * You guys.
 * All the material is well referenced. If you have any references from reliable sources that can "rebalance" the article, go ahead. In the meantime, the NPOV tag will be removed.
 * Unless there are concrete and constructive proposals on what to change and how, while keeping the article referenced, the only bias I see is the above unsubstantiated comments alleging POV of the article. 83.190.216.88 (talk) 18:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Well, Blair seems equally unpopular with the far left as with the Tories. And the LibDems have picked one of his most open critics from within the Met as their candidate for Mayor. So if the critics of the alleged POV here just leap to the assumption that the article must be from a Tory POV and don't come up with specific examples, then they are not going to be taken seriously. --Peter cohen (talk) 19:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Agreed. This article, whilst (reasonably) well-referenced, is horribly unbalanced. In particular, by seperating out each "controversial" incident under a different sub-heading, it appears to place undue weight on each. Whereas, many of them should probably be grouped together under a less specific sub-heading. Also, many of the points are one-sided and lack a counter-balancing explanation/excuse/justification/whatever from Mr Blair (sorry, Sir Ian). DWaterson (talk) 00:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Stubbed
I have removed most of the material from this article as a quite unacceptable hatchet-job. If these things cannot be discussed in a neutral manner, rather than a calculated portrayal of Blair as a bigot and I don't know what else, then it's better left unsaid. This was one of the most overtly vitriolic articles I can recall, and for a senior public official still in office and under no actual sanction for wrongdoing, that really is not acceptable. Here's what we need in this case: good, reliable, secondary (i.e. not newspaper, especially tabloid) sources which discuss the events in question and how they were received in the various communities and by other stakeholders such as ACPO and the Home Office. Arms-length sources, with an emphasis on analytical coverage. There won't be many books, but there will be heavyweight news magazines, learned journals, that kind of thing. We cannot get into the business of being a tabloid aggregator, because tabloids typically look only to today's sensationalism and do not go back and correct their errors. Links to many newspaper stories does not constitute being well-referenced, in a case like this, because the papers will all have their own political agenda. "Blair is teh murderer" is great newspaper copy, but not a good Wikipedia article, because it lacks intellectual rigour, reflection and context. Please, folks, we can do better than this. Guy (Help!) 20:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Per the BLP noticeboard discussion, where several people (including me) mentioned that the Jean Charles de Menezes incident needs to be covered, I am going to start re-adding stuff. I will endeavour to do so in a sensitive manner. Please leave me a note here or on my talk page if there are problems. Carcharoth (talk) 10:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Jean Charles de Menezes
Blair's public profile rose considerably when he issued statements during the 7 July 2005 London bombings and the 21 July 2005 London bombings.

Sir Ian was the Metropolitan Police Commissioner at the time of the death of the Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes. After the shooting, he telephoned the Chairman of the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) and wrote a letter to the Home Office stating that "the shooting that has just occurred at Stockwell is not to be referred to the IPCC and that they will be given no access to the scene at the present time". In the UK police shootings are routinely investigated by the IPCC. He also made a false statement claiming that a warning had been issued prior to the shooting. Demands have been made for his resignation especially by Alessandro Pereira, a cousin of Menezes. The IPCC held an investigation into the false statements, and allegations of attempts to delay an inquiry. On 2nd August 2007 the IPCC announced its findings that the allegations against Blair couldn't be substantiated, instead placing the blame for misleading the public on Assistant Commissioner Andy Hayman, who had failed to report his suspicions that an innocent man had been killed, and had released contradictory statements to the press.

Following the discovery that de Menezes was not in fact a suspected suicide bomber, Blair apparently considered resigning but quickly came to the decision to remain in office, "because the big job is to defend this country against terrorism and that's what I'm here to do". He may however come under further pressure when the IPPC report is published, and he has admitted that his decision would depend "on the level of condemnation".

Blair, or the Metropolitan Police, may face action for libel from one of his Deputy Assistant Commissioners, Brian Paddick. Paddick told the IPCC that a member of Sir Ian's private office team believed the wrong man had been targeted just six hours after the shooting. When this allegation became public following an unauthorised disclosure, Scotland Yard issued a statement claiming that the officer alleged to have believed this (Paddick) "has categorically denied this in his interview with, and statement to, the IPCC investigators". The statement continued that they "were satisfied that whatever the reasons for this suggestion being made, it is simply not true". Paddick's interpretation of this statement was that it accused him of lying.

On 28 March 2006, Paddick accepted a statement from the Metropolitan Police that it "did not intend to imply" a senior officer had misled the probe into the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes. In a statement the Metropolitan Police said "any misunderstanding is regretted" and that Paddick had accepted its "clarification" and considered the matter closed.

In June 2006, a leaked copy of the Independent Police Complaints Commission report sparked further criticism and calls to quit.

Verdict
On 1 November 2007, a jury delivered a verdict that found New Scotland Yard guilty under health and safety laws. The presiding judge, Mr Justice Henriques, highlighted 19 "catastrophic errors" in the operation, but said 'this was very much an isolated breach under quite extraordinary circumstances' saying that there had been "fundamental failures to carry out a planned operation in a safe and reasonable way". Ian Blair, immediately after the verdict was delivered, read a statement to the press, saying that there was "no evidence at all of systematic failure" and quoting the judge that "the failures alleged were not sustained or repeated". He said that he intended to continue to lead the Met, despite (among others) many MPs of the minority Conservative and Liberal Democrats parties calling for his resignation. The day after, Shadow Home Secretary David Davis wrote a letter to Home Secretary Jacqui Smith formally calling for his resignation.

On 7 November members of the London Assembly passed a vote of no confidence in Ian Blair by fifteen votes to eight. Blair again insisted that he would not resign, saying "This conversation does not take us any further. I have stated my position. If you have the power to remove me, go on". He was also reported to say that he was being "driven from office by people who do not understand the facts and have a completely different agenda".

Suggested changes
Those are my suggestions, anyway. Carcharoth (talk) 10:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Title: a better title could be to do this by year, or as an overall section on "terorrism" or the July 2005 bombings?
 * Paddick is no longer in the Metropolitan Police, and is in fact the Liberal Democrat candidate in the Mayoral elections, so this bit is out of date.
 * Overall, the section appears to present the views of both sides, and uses reliable sources (though whether it correctly represents what the sources say, I haven't checked yet). There are two references from a tabloid newspaper (the Daily Mail), but the rest are not tabloid sources (though they could be engaging in tabloid journalism).
 * The first sentence is awkward and unclear - needs rewriting to say what it is trying to say, or to say something more relevant.
 * The most important thing is to say upfront that the details of what happened are disputed, rather than trying to present "what happened". Then mention the reports and the verdicts. Then give the responses from the press and Blair and the family.
 * The amount of direct quotes could be reduced, or moved to the footnotes. Sometimes they are being used selectively, and at other times they are being used to show the two sides to an issue.
 * The real problem is that the balance of what to say is unclear. Those with more BLP-writing experience may know how to handle this, and how to mention news coverage without going into disputed details.
 * I completely agree with every word you say and you'll get no objection from me if you proceed along these lines. Guy (Help!) 12:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Worth mentioning that it is the POlice authority (who gave Blair a vote of confidence) not the GLA whoa ctually control his fate.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Sure, but if people could help out and start editing the article, that would be good... I don't really want to do the whole rewrite myself. Carcharoth (talk) 12:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

 * And looking at it, a lot of it is blow-by-blow reporting from November; there should by now be analytical sources which cover the events of last November in a more dispassionate way. Guy (Help!) 12:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Though it is disappointing that no-one else has done anything since I made an initial attempt to start expanding what is effectively a new article. Most of our articles on the Met Police Commissioners are pretty poor, actually, but as I was going back through them, I suddenly came across Hugh Trenchard, 1st Viscount Trenchard. Now that is an article. Almost as good is Julian Byng, 1st Viscount Byng of Vimy. Both, admittedly, were famous for things other than their brief police roles. Here is another nice one, Sir Edward Bradford, 1st Baronet, this time someone who served for 13 years in the role, and finally we get back to Richard Mayne - 39 years in the job! Maybe we should all come back to this article in 100 years time? Or (as I think) would that be abrogating our duty to write the best article we can, now? Carcharoth (talk) 01:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Removal of sourced material about controversies
While it's refreshing to see that the editor who originally did the stubbing has explained his motives in a civil manner and doesn't seem to be driven by a political agenda, I find his explanation on this page insufficient.

I understand there has been a separate discussion on BLP noticeboard. It would have been nice to add a link to it. People who are watching this page may not be watching that one.

If other people are to improve the article and learn lessons from past mistakes, they will need specific references to policies to accompany the criticism, especially if their violation justifies instant mass removal of a lot of hard work.

I also cannot fail to notice that virtually all of the material that has been left is not referenced at all, so I call for an explanation as to why that was left intact (and more material added) without even a call for references.

In short, what has been done may have a justification, but the way it has been done can be seen as (probably unintentionally, though the edit comment "Disgusting" was not chosen very carefully) inflammatory. What I mainly dispute is the asymmetry between the amount of work that has gone in to write and source the controversies section and the effortless instantaneous mass-removal. I think a fairer and more constructive way of doing that would have been removing (or improving) one by one the parts that were not considered acceptable, with an explanation for each and references to WP policies, leading to a more pleasant atmosphere from which we can all learn from. 210.131.167.98 (talk) 23:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

 * My view is that more could be added back in from the Jean Charles de Menezes bit above. Not everything, and not in the way it was said before, but still more than we have at the moment. Would you be able to add your views above? Carcharoth (talk) 07:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Right now my goal is to understand whether the mass-removal was done according to WP policy, because I'm not very convinced. Since the only way to get a response seems to be to revert this change, I've just done that. 210.131.216.139 (talk) 13:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Further removals
Lately there have been further removals of properly sourced information, with little or no explanation of the removals. Part of the problem may be the format which highlighted every "controversy", so I've endeavoured to integrate the issues more closely into the description of his career, and put them in sequence. I also found that the first source I checked included praise for Blair as well as criticism, so I've expanded the paragraph about black muggers to mention that point. A similar exercise on the other issues would be useful. . dave souza, talk 09:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Subsequent reinclusion
As 2008 was turbulent with the Heathrow evasion(Tvi Lipniz and Doronthy Almog) revelations, the warrantless searching of Damian Green`s office at Parliament by acclaimed antiterror chief, the phonehacking (see Amdocs) and phonetapping reporters and their agents in the MPS (News of the World phone hacking scandal/ underage schoolgirl Milly Dowler), and perhaps most importantly the PNC (Police National Computer) tendering and contracting to Israeli agents, "controversy" seems to have been whittled down somewhat, but may be included. Care should be taken to avoid overlaps between so-called controversial resignation reasons of his successor operandi-ad-interim (phonehacking/lousy reporting). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.209.47.215 (talk) 18:49, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Cleanup tag
I've tagged the article as it strikes me that there are a number of small sections which make the article an indsicriminate collection of facts and rumours about IB without any clear rhyme and reason to why they are put together in the way they are. Why is some investigation involving Kate Moss important? Why isn't the name of a senior officer explained in that section? Why is mention given to Brian Haw's placards? If there was a significant narrative that IB was profligate with money, then that should be explained in a structured and well-referenced manner. If IB was no more subject to this sort of complaint than other police chiefs, then this material shouldn't be here.--Peter cohen (talk) 05:27, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

 * The reason for those sections is that they support the vast amount of controversy that surrounded this person in his position as Met chief. They are definitely not trivia. They used to be grouped under "Controversies", but that attracted page blanking of well sourced and decently presented material. I will remove the cleanup tag if there are no objections. Thanks. 122.16.210.25 (talk) 14:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

 * I do object. My issue with the article as consisting of lots of factlets with no argument binding them together has not be addressed by an improvement in the article.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Maybe because your suggested solution of blowing away well sourced and relevant material was not the most constructive. In any case I do not really see the issue, and maybe the fact that I'm not alone explains why nobody did anything about it. 118.6.208.133 (talk) 00:05, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Peter cohen, the only proponent of a cleanup tag for this article, is kindly invited to continue this conversation instead of reverting removals of the cleanup tag. Constructive proposals for a way forward other than slapping a random cleanup tag and removing referenced material would be appreciated. 114.146.96.19 (talk) 03:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Despite the use of multiple IP addresses, there appears to be just a lone person objecting to my tag and yet they announce on things as if there were many of them against whom I was the one holdout. This article has previously been pruned to a stub because of WP:NPOV and WP:BLP issues. A whole horde of factlets, previously listed as controversies, have been reintroduced. There is no evidence that this section of factlets constitutes a balanced assessment of this man's service or that, for example, he was any more profligate than his predecessors or successor. To justify the includion of these facts, there has to be evidence that these are a representative selection of material. Yet if we look just to the next thread up, we find another editor remarking how a source was plundered for juicy negative material while other material in the same source was ignored.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

 * You are free to introduce and harmonise any sourced material that puts his service in a better light, I for one could not find any. I think you will have a pretty hard time denying (or censoring) the exceptional amount of controversy that dogged Ian Blair as a Commissioner. I'm not going to edit-war your tag, but other editors might choose to. For an issue to be addressed, the issue has first of all to exist and be recognised as such. Finally, your accusation that a "lone person" is objecting to the tag is unfounded and actually false. 114.146.137.72 (talk) 14:44, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I got here via Third opinion. It appears to me that the various controversies cited in this article are well-referenced and stated fairly neutrally, so I don't think there's exactly an issue of verifiability. However, it seems to me that the listing of controversies and scandals in Ian Blair's career isn't an optimal way to describe things. I believe that it would be strongly preferable to rewrite these in terms of a more complete narrative of his career. This would hopefully help to alleviate some of the NPOV issues raised by Peter cohen, as well. Moxfyre (ǝɹʎℲxoɯ | contrib) 15:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the comment, Moxfyre. If someone finds reliable sources which state e.g. that Blair's tenure was unusually prone to controversy, or that he was exceptionally unpopular either with the public or his own officers, or that there were far more spending issues raised under him than his predecessors, then the inclusions of these factlets will have been justified. A biography of IB, a history of the Met since the war, an review in an academic journal of the literature on policing under New Labour, etc. might all provide the sort of information to put the factlets in context and to clarify whether they constitute a representative narrative. Some of these things should be findable. ISTR reports on Stephenson's appointment referring to him as a "copper's copper" and contrasting him with Blair. But, for example, the coverage of the cost of operations could either be taken on face value as evidence of financial profligacy or could be read as evidence of his being targetting by opponents, or might simply be the result of the intoduction of a police authority in London instead of Home Office control leading to more spending figures entering the public domain. Without including analysis from reliable sources, we cannot give readers the tools to interpret the factlets. (It's about the difference between data and information.)--Peter cohen (talk) 18:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

From a random 1-second Google search ("Ian Blair" controversial):

I think this should be enough to reinstate a "Controversies" section that hopefully will provide enough binding for the perceived factletism with no risk of further vandalism.

In reply to Moxfyre, I don't believe Peter Cohen has raised an issue of NPOV, simply one of fragmentation and relevance. Actually, it was Peter Cohen who a year ago commented that "if the critics of the alleged POV here just leap to the assumption that the article must be from a Tory POV and don't come up with specific examples, then they are not going to be taken seriously".

Lastly, please take a look at Gordon Brown's article, arguably showing a similar layout. The "Gordon_brown" section after the first 3 subsections, starts a series of what Peter may see as "factlets", with no apparent glue other than "criticism" or "controversy". The difference with Ian Blair is that we can't seem to find any references that would allow us to write the equivalent of those first 3 subsections. Indeed, the few neutral statements in the article are lacking sources. In short, I believe that writing a "more complete narrative of his career" would be either impossible or would risk putting undue weight on less controversial, but also more minor fact(let)s. As Jamougha succintly put it in this very page some time ago, "NPOV doesn't dictate that a character must be made to look good". I couldn't agree more. 114.148.210.42 (talk) 14:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

 * What NPOV requires is that information is well sourced to reflect the reliable literature. Given the sources you now link, it will be justified to describe IB's tenure as controversial citing a mixture of centre-left sources (the Guardian) and ones from the "Tory right" (David Davis's article). Also you can note which incidents they pick out as important (In my skimming, it is not the costs of various operations that are picked out.) You can also see from these sources that the alleged political element in critiques of him is discussed with Blair reported as blaming the right wing press and in references to his being "New Labour's copper" and not a "copper's copper" in which context his publicly speaking out in the run up to an election in support of proposed terrorist legislation supported by the government and opposed by other parties. I'm pretty sure that Ken Livingstone (not a New Labour figure) condemned the situation which led to IB's dismissal. Indeed, I can't recall another commissioner who was so much identified with one party, but that needs to be sourced.
 * You're right that fragmentation and relevance are the key part of what I see as a problem. This fragmentation can then generate POV bias, or at least accusations of bias. Blair is certainly one of the most controversial chiefs of police I can recall. Anderton up in Manchester would be another and, of course, virtually anyone connected with the RUC. But instead of simply having a "controversies" section, we need to link sources which describe him as controversial. And then look at what incidents are especially described as controversial. Quickly skimming the articles you've linked, I've not noticed the cost of the operation against Kate Moss, for example, being picked out and I remain unconvinced that cost of operations is particularly an issue for which IB stood out. Indeed IB's successor has been criticised for the costs of the G20 policing operation. The De Menezes shooting, speaking out in support of Labour proposals during an election campaign, some of the other financial are what I think have particularly got mentions. A section entitled "A controversial commissioner" which referenced items that these articles pick out as part of a properly argued thread will be better than something simply entitled "controversies". And some of these articles mention how he thought the right wing press was ginning for him which can be used, as can quotes from Livingstone that support that thesis.
 * Similarly, I think there is potential for another section that looks at who he was seen as not a "copper's copper" for pushing a "politically correct" anti-discrimination agenda and yet by the end his most senior Asian officer and his most senior out gay officer both left criticising him. Surely there are reliable cources which discuss that?--Peter cohen (talk) 18:26, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been away. I don't think we reached a complete agreement, but I'm glad we clarified a couple of issues. If in the reorg any sourced material is removed, I would like full discussion of each item here. Incidents like the one about Brian Haw is important not just because of the amount of money involved (which is anyway notable and relevant) but because he misled some members of the Metropolitan police authority. Also some could argue that selectively omitting any sourced material would be bordering original research. Also interested to hear what others have to say. 122.25.228.160 (talk) 13:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

"I don't think people should distinguish Crime and Terrorism too easily, "
http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog.org.uk/blog/2005/02/sir-ian-blair-commissioner-of.html

Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, GMTV interview transcript on Identity Cards:

"I don't think people should distinguish Crime and Terrorism too easily, " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.215.43.102 (talk) 01:13, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Islamic terrorism and WWII comparison
"In a BBC Radio 4 interview Blair stated that Islamic terrorism "is a far graver threat in terms of civilians than either the Cold War or the Second World War".[18] Civilians killed in World War II totaled around 47 million."

Is the second part of the above extract strictly necessary? I understand the bizarre comparison he tried to make, but surely Wikipedia can only quote other "notable" sources when it comes to cricitism? --86.184.91.84 (talk) 17:52, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Glad you commented on it already.

Blair's statement must be seen in context of his position. He was head of the Met at the time he made that statement, so he might have been talking about threats to Londoners and not to ones to the whole world. In that context Sir Ian was correct. The Lufwaffe bombed London from the air in WWII but it did not use covered bombs on trains etc.. The same during the cold war, no Soviet agent or Soviet ally would have blown a bomb in London. The PIRA is another game.

So why this foolish comparison with the world-wide civilian casualties of WWII? Sorry, this is working with sources 1st trimester.--109.91.72.35 (talk) 00:32, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Lessons never learned
I recall hearing that it was Sir Ian Blair who said that "Lessons are always identified, but never learned". A wonderfully quotable phrase. I'd love to know if it can be verified that he's a source for it.

--peter_english (talk) 19:04, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Ian Blair. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090510125404/http://cms.met.police.uk/news/policy_organisational_news_and_general_information/commissioner/commissioner_s_letter_to_the_home_office to http://cms.met.police.uk/news/policy_organisational_news_and_general_information/commissioner/commissioner_s_letter_to_the_home_office

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 12:55, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Ian Blair. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061109071453/http://www.lslo.gov.uk/pressreleases/Final_Fraud_Review_release_24_07_06.doc to http://www.lslo.gov.uk/pressreleases/Final_Fraud_Review_release_24_07_06.doc

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 21:38, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Ian Blair. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071102215202/http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article3121159.ece to http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article3121159.ece
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071001032929/http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article2097766.ece to http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article2097766.ece
 * Added tag to http://www.alg.gov.uk/doc.asp?doc=15674&cat=1959
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120315232149/http://www.makejusticework.org.uk/our-projects/previous-projects/ to http://www.makejusticework.org.uk/our-projects/previous-projects

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 18:21, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ian Blair


text:
User:Aofrancis

My name is Andrew and I live in the West Midlands town of Solihull, UK. I am originally a geologist by training, holding a first class degree in the subject from the University of Durham (St Aidan's College) and a Ph.D in palaeontology (Jurassic molluscs: Trigoniacea) and applied statistics from the University of Birmingham, where I was supervised by the prolific writer on the Jurassic, Anthony Hallam, (who in turn was one of the great William Joscelyn Arkell's few students at Cambridge), the Oxford University Museum of Natural History, University of Oxford and The Natural History Museum, London. I am an elected Fellow of the Geological Society of London, FGS.

I am also a Chartered Accountant with the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants (CIMA).

I am originally from Huddersfield in West Yorkshire where I attended Salendine Nook High School and Huddersfield New College.

My favourite areas of the UK are:
 * Islay
 * Jura
 * Dorset
 * Anglesey
 * Cotswolds
 * Yorkshire Dales, particularly around Grassington and Malham
 * Lake District (mainly Langdale)

I also love visiting museums, these and other places of interest are shown below:

 * Oxford University Museum of Natural History
 * Natural History Museum, London
 * Sedgwick Museum, Cambridge University
 * Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery
 * Durham Cathedral
 * Finlaggan Visitor Centre, Islay

Academic Interests:

I am particularly interested in the history of science and the biographies of those contributors who have shaped scientific thought in the Twentieth Century, particularly in the field of Earth and Biological Sciences. I am also fascinated by British Political history post WW II. I am currently studying Public Policy Economics as a short course at the University of Oxford.

Articles I have started

Geologists of the Twentieth Century
 * George Malcolm Brown
 * John Frederick Dewey
 * Kingsley Charles Dunham
 * Anthony Hallam
 * Maurice Tucker
 * William Joscelyn Arkell

Systematic Palaeontology

 * Trigoniacea (under development)
 * Trigoniidae (under development)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Aofrancis


text:
Category talk:Walt Disney Animation Studios films

Numbering
Why are these listed here in numerical order? List of Disney animated features already has them listed chronologically; listing them that way here is just confusing. tregoweth 17:58, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * The numerical order is chronological. The numbers here duplicate the numbers on the list. --FuriousFreddy 19:29, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I was using "numerical" and "chronological" order interchangeably; I meant that the list article already has them in numerical/chronological order, so not listing them alphabetically here seemed strange. Sorry for being unclear. tregoweth 00:26, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * Oh. I had them listed in release order, and not in alphabetical order, becasue when most people browse through a list of Disney animated features, they're going to browse them in chronological order. Especially since this is an official, numbered canon; I figured it the best way of organization. The category'd look a bit odd in alphabetical order. --FuriousFreddy 04:02, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

 * But since nearly all categories list things in alphabetical order, it does look odd here. tregoweth 11:40, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * So you did it, huh? Not bad...it actually does work better this way. --FuriousFreddy 21:44, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

February 2019
All of the Walt Disney Animation Studios films, except Inside Out (2015) and Coco (2017). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.255.216.208 (talk) 16:19, 15 February 2019 (UTC)


text:
File:JohnnyCashTheSoundOfJohnnyCash.jpg

Fair use in The Sound of Johnny Cash
Though this image is subject to copyright, its use is covered by the U.S. fair use laws because:
 * 1) It's a low resolution copy of a CD/album cover.
 * 2) It doesn't limit the copyright owner's rights to sell the CD/album in any way, in fact, it may encourage sales.
 * 3) Because of the low resolution, copies could not be used to make illegal copies of the album artwork on another CD.
 * 4) The image is itself a subject of discussion in the article or used in the infobox thereof.
 * 5) The image on the cover is significant because it was made by a famous artist.

Source

 * 1) Derived from a digital capture (scan/photo) of the album/CD cover (creator of this digital version is irrelevant as the copyright in all equivalent images is still held by the same party). Copyright held by the record company or the artist. Claimed as fair use regardless.

title: File:JohnnyCashTheSoundOfJohnnyCash.jpg


text:
The Sound of Johnny Cash

The Sound of Johnny Cash is the eighth studio album by American singer-songwriter Johnny Cash, released on June 4, 1962. Among other songs, it contains "In the Jailhouse Now", a Jimmie Rodgers cover which reached #8 on the Country charts, and "Delia's Gone", which Cash would re-record years later, on American Recordings, in 1994. Cash would also go on to record a significantly slower, more ballad-like version of "I'm Free from the Chain Gang Now", which was ultimately released in 2006 on American V: A Hundred Highways as the last track on the album.

During the recording sessions for the album, Cash rerecorded his Sun Records hits "Folsom Prison Blues", "Hey, Porter" and "I Walk the Line", but none of these versions were ultimately used on the album and sat unreleased until the 1990s.

Cover imagery
The original 1962 album features a photograph of Johnny Cash taken by American photographer Leigh Wiener at his studio in Los Angeles, California.

Personnel

 * Johnny Cash - vocals, rhythm guitar
 * Luther Perkins - lead guitar
 * Ray Edenton – guitar
 * Marshall Grant - bass
 * Floyd Cramer - piano
 * Buddy Harman - drums
 * Don Helms - steel guitar

Charts
The album did not chart in the Billboard album charts. In 1962 the single "In the Jailhouse Now" peaked at #8 in the Billboard Country Singles.

title: The Sound of Johnny Cash


text:
Talk:The Sound of Johnny Cash

Fair use rationale for Image:JohnnyCashTheSoundOfJohnnyCash.jpg
Image:JohnnyCashTheSoundOfJohnnyCash.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Sound of Johnny Cash


text:
Talk:List of Disney Channel original films

Suite Life On Deck Movie Rankings
According to the Suite Life Movie page, the movie received 14 million views. That means the movie is ranked second and beat out Wizards of Waverly Place. SOMEONE FIX THE PAGE!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.24.174 (talk) 19:49, March 27, 2011 (UTC)

Protected
I have fully protected this page for two days. I see lots of reverting but I don't see any attempt by either side to come to the talk page and explain why they are adding/reverting. Lay out your reasoning here, please. Several of you, who have been here long enough to know better, are way over WP:3RR. Remember that edit warring is against the rules even when you think you are right. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:45, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Except for the part where I went to the editor's talk page, and requested they explain their changes here. Which they have refused to do. As per WP:BURDEN, the rest of us don't have to explain the added content – the "adder" does. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:52, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

I reverted content that was added that was not in WP:SCOPE of the article as specified by the article title and lead description of what the scope of the article is. Generally we try to restrict article content of all articles to the defined article scope. If the editor adding the out-of-scope content wants to extent the scope there needs to be a discussion and consensus to do so and likely the article title would need to change to reflect change. I would oppose changing the scope of this article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:48, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Disney Movies not on list
was stargirl a disney channel original? Mattchew2112 (talk) 23:34, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Just Like Mr. Sunny
This movie does not exist, it's an internet hoax, and sadly origin of it is Wikipedia, this IP edit specifically: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Disney_Channel_original_films&diff=prev&oldid=297730358 Every other spread to the internet happened after that edit. As such I'm removing it from page.Tehonk (talk) 16:24, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The 'Disney Channel Premiere Films' are tough, because that was back then Disney Channel was basically a "Pay TV" channel like HBO, so sourcing is extremely difficult to come by (i.e. no easy way to do WP:V on them!). Thus, it would not surprise me if that was not the only hoax listed, or if some of the listed airing dates weren't flat-out wrong for some of them. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:18, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Disney Channel Magazines are invaluable resources, they contain full schedules from these era. Some can be found on archive.org: https://archive.org/search.php?query=%22Disney%20Channel%20Magazine%22 There are quite a lot of from these era, although not so much from 1983. One of the uploaders said intents to upload more from 1983. And Bill Cotter's "The Wonderful World of Disney Television" book is also a masterpiece work: https://www.amazon.com/Wonderful-World-Disney-Television-Complete/dp/0786863595 And his supplemental materials that he sells separately here: https://www.billcotter.com/tvbook/supplemental.htm They basically combine everything even from these unfindable Disney Channel Magazine issues.Tehonk (talk) 20:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Disney Channel Premiere Films
IP editor is trying to trim this list down using, but fan clubs/fan sites are not considered reliable sources. If there are incorrect entries in that list, we will need a reliable source in order to verify that – something like the Disney Channel Magazines that are mentioned in the thread above this one. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:13, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * D23 is a labeled as a fan club but it is owned and run by Disney. A bit different than fan sites owned and run by fans with no connection to the company. I would consider this an exception to the general rule of not using fan sites. Disney calls it a fan club but it is a Disney product run by Disney for the benefit of Disney fans. Content included is likely as reliable as any other content generated by Disney official outlets. Geraldo Perez (talk) 14:52, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * OK, will self-revert on that basis, but I personally would rather see some other sourcing to confirm this. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:58, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with Geraldo Perez D23 should be considered reliable. And AFAIK these pages under the "Disney A to Z" section is prepared by Disney's Chief Archivist. So should be as reliable as it gets.Tehonk (talk) 04:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Strange Companions
It's currently listed with "February 28, 1987" date, while this is indeed the US premiere date, it was actually aired in Canada years before than that. In "December 4, 1983". How to note this in the page?Tehonk (talk) 00:35, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I would leave the U.S. air date there, but you can add a 'note' via the Refn template, which allows you to add a note with an inline source included. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:36, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

P.U.N.K.S. = DCOM
Because Disney says so - https://d23.com/a-to-z/p-u-n-k-s-television/

User:IJBall says this needs to be discussed, apparently they think facts need discussion. So, please discuss.

98.109.143.57 (talk) 22:02, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

 * I would like it "fact checked" by a trusted editor –  do you have any comments or thoughts on this? Thanks. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:03, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for ping, hard to tell, kind of similar to Northern Lights, from what I can tell it was first released on video in January (and that 5 January date seems to be wrong, every contemporary source and video guide lists it with 12 January date) so, initially it had nothing to do with Disney. Disney later purchases rights to air it in fall, on September 4, 1999 (the date d23.com lists). Trying to find out if it was labeled as DCOM at that time. But question is, even if it was labeled as such in September premiere, it was first made for video and had nothing to do with Disney after all, should it be called a DCOM then? Tehonk (talk) 08:59, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * My general thought is – if it was not included in Disney's "official list" of "100 DCOMs" from 2016, then it's not a DCOM. IMDb also lists no involvement from Disney or a Disney company, and does not list it as a "TV movie". At best, it might belong under 'Notable non-Disney Channel Original Movie films' along with 16 Wishes and Harriet The Spy: Blog Wars (which also have pages at D23), but I'd want to see at least one other source on this to confirm it. But I agree with you, this is not a DCOM – it looks like D23 got this wrong (which has been my concern with this fansite the whole time: I was wondering if there were errrors...). So my vote is that it stays out of the main list. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:14, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Zombies 3
So, Zombies 3 is now set to be a Disney+ Original Movie coming Friday, July 15.

However, it's also airing on Disney Channel on Friday, August 12. This is the first time this has happened where a movie streams on Disney+ FIRST and on Disney Channel later, it's usually the other way around.

My question is, do we leave Zombies 3 on the List of Disney Channel original films page or just move it to the List of Disney+ original films page?

Peacerocker07 (talk) 15:45, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

 * It will come down to what WP:RS call the film from here on in – If they keep calling it a "Disney Channel Original Film", it stays here. But if they start calling it a "Disney+ Original Film", then it should be removed from this list. Based on the EW article, it's looking like it should be pulled from this list. But lets see what other RS say after this. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:55, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I could see the poster as not being clear enough but it does call it an Original movie in the same manner it does on Chip n Dale and Turning Red's posters CreecregofLife (talk) 17:15, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * How about this?
 * If the encore presentation or even the streaming release says "A Disney Channel Original Movie" at the beginning, maybe it could stay on the List of Disney Channel original films? That's the only other way I could think of it staying. Peacerocker07 (talk) 03:40, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * This I agree with. Though I wouldn't bet on it saying such, because of how relatively little it takes to change it. CreecregofLife (talk) 03:44, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Again, I'd like to see other WP:RSs and what they say on this. Or an official press release from Disney. Either way, it cannot be totally confirmed yet that this won't be branded a "Disney Channel Original Film", or perhaps a combination of both. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:14, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

It's been a while. But Disney+ literally promotes it everywhere as their own original movie, Disney Channel doesn't anymore. We will see what happens during the encore presentation on August 12, though. I wonder if it will still say "A Disney Channel Original Movie" at the beginning since it's kinda a different version of the movie that's extended with an extra song... this is kind of confusing, but I hope we figure it out in the end. Does it stay on the List of Disney Channel original films even if it's not like, promoted as a DCOM for its Disney Channel premiere? Peacerocker07 (talk) 03:50, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
 * What it says in the credits is what we're waiting for. We're still 2 weeks from premiere so of course it's "been a while". We're still waiting and still have to wait--CreecregofLife (talk) 03:53, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I think Zombies 3 can stay in the List of Disney Channel original films.

I just watched it on Disney+ and while it said "A Disney Original Movie" (not specifically Disney+ or Disney Channel), the end credits had the 2019 Disney Channel Original Movie logo at the end after the Resonate Entertainment logo. So, I think it still technically counts?

You guys can be the judge of that. Peacerocker07 (talk) 08:57, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

 * I found another source, kind of. The official Disney Branded Television August 2022 Programming Highlights are labelling it as
 * "Disney Channel Original Movie – Premiere on Disney Channel
 * ZOMBIES 3 – Special “Lost Song” Version (8:00-9:35 p.m. EDT)"
 * I still think this is good enough to keep on this page after the TV premiere. Peacerocker07 (talk) 01:19, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I want to see how it's branded when it airs in August. But I suspect it will be branded as a DCOM then. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:50, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

DCOMs on Disney+
IJBall: It may not matter to you whether you're from the United States or not, but it's impossible to add Disney+ in a single sentence to the DCOM page. If you've been updated with the news of Disney shutting down majority global Disney linear TV channels to focus solely on their specific launches of Disney+ there, you'll understand the change(s) I've made. What's more, since Disney+ launched, I can hardly recall any DCOM being released on DVD/Blu-ray. If you disagree with the changes and like I stated on my last edit summary, please reply to me the "lots wrong" I've made/done. Also, the DCOM page apart from the DCOM list from 1997 till date looks outdated. Intrisit (talk) 10:26, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

 * Multiple points:
 * Only what happens in the U.S. matters here – this article is about DCOMs which are produced for the American Disney Channel; what happens internationally is not in the WP:SCOPE of this article.
 * Whatever is added about Disney+ actually needs to be sourced.
 * Whatever is added will likely be short – one sentence stating that all DCOMs since Spin(?) or Under Wraps(?) have been roughly simultaneously released on Disney+ and broadcast on the Disney Channel. And then maybe a sentence on no DCOMs being released on home media over the same period (though that would actually need to be secondarily sourced to something).
 * I was very clear about the "something wrong" – you keep changing reference dates and authors to the wrong format for the article – please stop doing this: the current refs at the article are fine and do not need to be "improved" or changed.
 * Now are there actually any secondary sources for the changes you want to make? Why don't you post a draft sentence or paragraph (with sources) here to the Talk page of what you want so we can all see what you're proposing? --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:03, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

 * What happened to WP:CSB?! Funny, the secondary sourcing confuses me, because without the "quote" in cite web, the sources I'll quote have/get no meaning — no wonder you're disagreeing with the changes I've made.
 * My proposal outside of the change of dmy dates change is; I added the "High School Musical" franchise along with the Zombies, Zenon, Teen Beach, Camp Rock and Twitches sequels/trilogies to the major DCOM franchises because they deserve a mention. The sources are there on their individual pages; I admit not duplicating them here so you'll see I'm not just modifying this to make points. Maybe they don't get special mentions than what's on the page right now in length there in the U.S..
 * I'm confused right now whether or not to touch this page, because sources out there can't pinpoint prove my points, so you'll disagree and revert them. Intrisit (talk) 10:33, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You keep bringing up WP:CSB which is a canard in this case – the first sentence of this article is "Many television films have been produced for Disney Channel, an American family-oriented basic cable channel and former premium television channel..." which clearly defines the article's WP:SCOPE as being DCOMs produced for the American Disney Channel. Other countries are mostly irrelevant to this discussion, and if you are actually proposing changing the WP:SCOPE of this article, I promise you I won't be the only one who opposes it.
 * There is also zero justification for changing either the article's reference author or date formats (which would entail changing over 100 sources), the latter as per WP:DATETIES, and again I strongly oppose doing this here, or at any article, as per WP:CITESTYLE and WP:CITEVAR.
 * Yes, the thing about addition of the the "simultaneous release" of DCOMs on Disney Channel and Disney+ should be sourced (preferentially secondarily sourced) to something. Ditto the lack of DVD releases of DCOMs by Disney lately.
 * On your final point, if you want to change the "franchise" sentence in the lede to: "Aside from the High School Musical films, the major DCOM franchises include Camp Rock, The Cheetah Girls, Twitches, Halloweentown, the Teen Beach films, the Zenon trilogy, and the Descendants series., and possibly add Zombies to the end of this list, I would have no objection to that. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:06, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

|author=
IJBall reverted my edit for an improper use of 'author' parameter in a Twitter-specific citation template. Achmad Rachmani (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Reversion was totally justified: – as per template docs, author parameter is for "Author's real name, if known. If not known, then the tweet is probably not an acceptable usage of a self-published source (see WP:SPS)" – IOW, that parameter is only to be used if it's an actual person. You were attempting to add a "non-person" as author, which you are not supposed to do: the user is wholly sufficient for these press release posts. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:12, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * But what is "author's real name"? Achmad Rachmani (talk) 23:23, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The real name of the person – i.e. "John Doe" or "Achmad Rachmani", not "staff report" or "Disney Branded TV PR" (which is an organization, not a "person"). In other words, some cites, including tweets, will not have the need of an author parameter. The cites you tried to change at this article don't need an author filled in. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:22, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Black Arrow Missing
Hi, why is Black Arrow film not listed? The D23 site says it's the 4th film. The lists on this website were compiled by the Chief Archivist which makes them the authority. For that matter, this list falsely suggests numerous films are Disney Channel Premiere films. Escape to Witch Mountain, Susie Q, Wish Upon a Star, The Paper Brigade, and Northern Lights	are not listed on the D23 site. Once again, this list is the official Disney list prepared by their chief archivist. There should not be any arguing over this. These films have been removed in the past and should not have returned.

Disney also owns and operates D23.com, but that is still irrelevant since the lists were done by their archives.

https://d23.com/a-to-z/disney-channel-premiere-films/ 72.135.55.191 (talk) 11:29, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

 * It would be best to get a secondary source mention of this film, especially as the Black Arrow (1985 film) article is entirely unsourced. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:54, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, Northern Lights is definitely mentioned on the D23 site – the issue is that it's not a true "DCOM" for all of the reasons previously discussed, and included in its note.
 * Escape to Witch Mountain (1995 film) appears to be an ABC TV movie and should be removed from the list.
 * The Paper Brigade is sourced, though it looks like a direct-to-video film, so it's arguable that it should be included.
 * Susie Q (film) and Wish Upon a Star use the same source, but both became famous from Disney Channel airings, and I feel strongly that they should be included here, though you could argue that they should be moved to the 'Notable non-Disney Channel Original Movie films' section, along with 16 Wishes, etc. which are pretty much in the same category. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:09, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Prom Pact
The Disney+ Original Movie, Prom Pact was just announced to be premiering on March 30, 2022 on Disney Channel, followed by the Disney+ release the very next day.

Should it be included in the List of Disney Channel original films? Peacerocker07 (talk) 18:44, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * If it premieres first on Disney Channel then, yes, it should be listed here. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:37, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

“Disney Original Movie” Branding
A lot of movies premiering simultaneously on Disney Channel and Disney+ are now under the “Disney Original Movie” branding. No “channel” or “+” in between.

It makes it confusing for those who analyze the Disney Channel Original Movies a lot.

Should these "Disney Original Movies" still be counted and listed in the List of Disney Channel original films page?

Zombies 3 and Prom Pact are prime examples of this. Cqntralls (talk) 04:08, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

 * So starting a new, separate section for these? – How many of these are there so far? I don't think I'd support a new section for these unless they have been at least about five of them. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:12, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I’m not suggesting a new section, but just wondering if these movies should even count as “Disney Channel Original Movies”. Cqntralls (talk) 04:44, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I think they count as a "very-related category", yes. And a separate section is likely the way to handle it, in the same way that the pre-DCOMs are handled at this same article. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:31, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you know how many of these movies have had (near-)simultaneous releases on Disney Channel and Disney+? And do you know how many have been branded as "Disney Original Movies" (as opposed to "Disney Channel Original Movies")? Thanks. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:38, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * So far, only Zombies 3 and Prom Pact are the only ones that have been branded as "Disney Original Movies". The upcoming film, The Slumber Party was announced as such too.
 * We'll see what happens in the next few months-years when we get more updates on Big City Greens: The Movie, From the Desk of Zoe Washington, and The Naughty Nine. Cqntralls (talk) 03:53, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi! Prom Pact and The Slumber Party are "Disney Original Movies" without "channel". Though yes, they premiered on Disney Channel first. I don't have a login, but you can check my IP address and google the location for credibility. 204.128.192.31 (talk) 18:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Should Zombies 3 be included in the Disney Original Movie section?
Since someone added a Disney Original Movie section to this page, should Zombies 3 be on there?

It says "Disney Original Movie" at the beginning of the film and was actually the first of its kind to have that at the beginning.

@2601:246:5C81:F9D0:E19C:F338:290A:EEEF, since you added this new section, what do you think we should do? Cqntralls (talk) 04:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)


text:
Valentine Mott

Valentine Mott (August 20, 1785 – April 26, 1865) was an American surgeon.

Life
Valentine Mott was born at Glen Cove, New York. He graduated at Columbia College, studied under Sir Astley Cooper in London, and also spent a winter in Edinburgh. After acting as demonstrator of anatomy he was appointed professor of surgery in Columbia College in 1809. From 1811 to 1834 he was in very extensive practice as a surgeon, and most successful as a teacher and operator. He tied the innominate artery in 1818; the patient lived twenty-six days. He performed a similar operation on the carotid for the first time in the USA on 20 Sept 1829 before going on to carry out this operation forty-six times with good results; and in 1827 he was also successful in the case of the common iliac. He is said to have performed one thousand amputations and one hundred and sixty-five lithotomies.

After spending seven years in Europe (1834-1841) Mott returned to New York where he was on the founding faculty of the university medical college of New York, now New York University School of Medicine. He translated AALM Velpeau's Operative Surgery, and was foreign associate of the Imperial Academy of Medicine of Paris.

A collection of his correspondence is held at the National Library of Medicine in Bethesda, Maryland.

Family
In 1849, the same year he was elected President of the New York Academy of Medicine, Mott and his wife, the former Louisa Dunmore Munn, moved to a four-story Italianate brownstone mansion at #1 Gramercy Park West with their large family. The couple had 9 children: 6 sons, including Alexander Brown Mott (1826–1889), Valentine Mott, Jr. (1822–1854), and Thaddeus P. Mott; and 3 daughters, including Louisa Dunmore Mott, who in 1842 married the surgeon William Holme Van Buren. A son of Alexander B. Mott, the surgeon Dr. Valentine Mott (1852–1918) studied under Louis Pasteur in Paris and was the first to introduce rabies vaccine into the U.S.

Upon his death in 1865, Mott was interred at Green-Wood Cemetery in Brooklyn, New York.

title: Valentine Mott


text:
Bournbrook

Bournbrook is an industrial and residential district in southwest Birmingham, England, in the ward of Bournbrook and Selly Park and the parliamentary constituency of Birmingham Selly Oak. Before 2018 it was in Selly Oak Council Ward. Prior to what is commonly termed the Greater Birmingham Act, which came into effect on 9 November 1911, the Bourn Brook watercourse was the North Eastern boundary of Worcestershire, and the area was locally governed by the King's Norton and Northfield Urban District Council.

Bournbrook was once known for its Victorian Leisure Park known as Kerby's Pools. The industry that followed the construction of the canals transformed the ancient manor of Selley. The junction of the Worcester and Birmingham Canal and the Netherton Canal via the Lapal Tunnel created a distribution centre for heavy raw materials from the Black Country. Major industries developed along both sides of the two canals. Terraced housing, for the better off working people, was constructed on the former Selly Hill, Selly Grove, and Selly Oak estates. The High Street provided retail, entertainment, and public services.

The property of Sir Henry Gough Calthorpe of Edgbaston was protected by clauses in the Canal Bill prohibiting the construction of wharves, warehouses, and other buildings along with other restrictive concessions. The Bournbrook rifle range, on the Warwickshire side of the watercourse, was opened in 1860 as the training ground for the Birmingham Rifle Corps later known as the First Volunteer Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. Trams from Birmingham initially stopped at Selly Oak Gate, the county boundary on the turnpike road, or at the Gun Barrels Public House. Extended services ran at weekends to Kerby's Pools.

Located adjacent to the main campus of the University of Birmingham, numerous houses in the area have been converted from private housing into HMOs (Houses of Multiple Occupation) for students at the university. In response to this practice, fourteen of Selly Oak's community groups have formed a federation 'CP4SO' (Community Partnership for Selly Oak) to address the major issues that the 'Buy to Let, to convert' might be causing. The Local Action Plan, adopted in July 2001, identifies that: an area of restraint was proposed for the area between Bristol Road, Heeley Road, Raddlebarn Road, and Bournbrook Road. Within this area planning permission for further purpose built student accommodation may be refused. Planning permission is required for the conversion of dwellings for more than six people, or where people do not live as a single household. Planning approval may be refused throughout the Plan area, but particularly within the area of restraint."

Toponymy
The name 'Bourn' is derived from the Old English burna or bourne for brook or stream when it had gravel beds and was characterised by clear water and submerged water plants. By contrast 'broc' usually denotes muddy streams with sediment laden with water. Normally both words were used for streams of a considerable size.

Transport and Communications
Roads

The Bristol Road was turnpiked in the early 18th century. The original line of the road, before 1771, went by way of Edgbaston Park Road which began opposite Bournbrook Road, alongside Edgbaston Park, along Priory Road, Church Road, Arthur Road, Wheeley's Road, Bath Row, Holloway Head, and Smallbrook Ringway. A new section of the turnpike was made in 1771 at a cost of £5,000, starting at Bristol Street and joining the old road at the Gun Barrels.

The first horse-drawn tram service from Birmingham began in the 1870s and went as far as the Bournbrook Hotel. Hughes ran an experimental steam powered service between Monmouth Street and Bournbrook on 2 July 1880, the latter distance being covered in twenty-five minutes with a car load of passengers attached to the engine. From 1890 to 1900 accumulator battery trams were in use connecting Birmingham to Bournbrook. A year later electric cables were introduced to replace the batteries. The tram sheds between Dawlish Road and Tiverton Road are now the Douper Hall of Residence. The depot in Dawlish Road was replaced by one opened in 1927 in Chapel Lane. The depot in Harborne Lane was used for buses which replaced the trams. The former Bristol Road tram route and its depots were replaced by buses in 1952. The depot closed in 1986 and is in use as Access storage centre.

Canals

The Lapal Tunnel and the Dudley Canal were completed in 1798 and raw materials, especially coal and lime, for heavy industry were transported into Selly Oak from the Black Country and then to the River Severn, or to Oxford and London via the Stratford-upon-Avon Canal. The Worcester and Birmingham Canal commenced in 1791 and was completed in 1815 with the lifting of the Worcester Bar in Birmingham. Industrial activity developed along its banks from Bournbrook to Lifford. The industry stopped abruptly at the boundary with Edgbaston because of clauses inserted in the Bill that protected the property of Sir Henry Gough-Calthorpe by prohibiting the construction of wharves, warehouses and other buildings without his consent. The embankment near Wheeleys Road, gave way on 26 May 1872 causing considerable damage to the properties nearby. By an agreement of 1873 this canal was sold to the Gloucester and Berkeley Canal Co, otherwise the Sharpness Dock Co. A boatyard on the Dudley Canal was established and run by the Monk family for many years. A final roof fall in 1917 resulted in the closure of the Lapal tunnel. The canal continued to be used transporting bricks from the California brickworks. Planning is underway to reopen the section of the canal through the new Sainsbury's site. Eventually it is hoped to re-connect the canal at Halesowen. Railways

The Birmingham West Suburban Railway line from Granville Street to King's Norton was opened in 1876 with five stations. The single track was doubled and extended from Granville Street to New Street, at an estimated cost of £280,400, so that the Midland Railway had a direct run through the town. It was later incorporated into the Midland Railway and the terminus changed to New Street. During the Great War casualties were brought to Selly Oak and transferred to the First Southern and General Military Hospital which was housed in the new University of Birmingham buildings. The railway was carried over the Bristol Road by an embankment and multi-arched viaduct. In the 1920s the central part of the viaduct was replaced with the current steel bridge in order that the new higher trams could pass underneath. The new bridge followed a slightly different alignment. The arches that were used as by Vincent's timber depot have recently been cleared. The current car park occupies the area that once housed significant goods sidings that could hold up to 300 wagons. The sidings were mainly used for the conveyance of coal and a coal merchant's stood on the site for many years. Bournbrook is served by Selly Oak railway station on the Cross-City Line, providing services to the Birmingham New Street, Lichfield Trent Valley, Bromsgrove and Redditch stations.

History
Prehistoric

Along the Bourn Brook evidence has been found of Bronze Age burnt mounds. As these have been interpreted as having domestic use, for beer-making, or saunas the implication is that there may have been a prehistoric settlement nearby. Small pieces of prehistoric, Probably Iron Age, pottery and a piece of worked flint were found on the Selly Park Recreation Ground in 1996 which may indicate the site of an Iron Age farmstead in the vicinity.

Roman

Metchley Fort occupied a site nearby distributing goods such as salt from Droitwich to places further north and west. It is probable that they upgraded existing tracks. At some point they would have needed to ford the brook and Bournbrook seems a likely place with the possibility of local support for periods when the area was flooded.

Anglo-Saxon

Until 1911 the Bourn Brook was the ancient Anglo-Saxon boundary between Worcestershire and Staffordshire (Harborne), and Warwickshire (Edgbaston). The boundaries of the Midland shires were possibly established during the reign of the Danish Kings from 1016 to 1042 based on the former tribal kingdoms. Physical features were frequently used to identify the boundary of a region or estate. The Hamlet of Bournbrook developed at a crossing point of the Bourn Brook. Potentially it was a meeting place for the nobility of each of the shires. The Bourn Brook, which flows into River Rea near in Cannon Hill Park, is the Ward boundary.

Bourn Brook Mills
The Bourn Brook was in continuous use to power mills for several centuries. Harborne Mill was in Staffordshire until 1891. Pebble Mill and Edgbaston Mill were both in Warwickshire. Another mill was shown in 1787–9 on the most westerly of the streams from Edgbaston Pool where it joined the Bourn Brook near the Bristol Road. This may be the old silver rolling mill owned by Mr Spurrier referred to by Leonard, located near the present Eastern Road that was fed by the brook that ran from Edgbaston Pool.

A miller was mentioned in the Lechmere Tax Rolls for Weleye and Selleye in 1276–82. An archaeological excavation identified that the straightening of the Bourn Brook and the construction of the mill leat suggests that the site of the Bourn Brook Mill was medieval in origin and that a mill or mills had existed in roughly the same location for 500–600 years. Deposits from the relict water channels were radiocarbon dated to the 15th and 16th centuries. The fishponds that the leat drained into would also have to be of late medieval date. Further opportunity to discover the location of the medieval mill will be useful to inform the local and regional research cycles.

In the 16th century the King family had a fulling mill on the Bourn Brook. Henry Cambden the elder, a knife cutler, built a blade mill on part of Gower's Farm in 1707. In 1727 the mill was assigned to Henry Carver, a brass founder. The Gunsmiths, Heeley and Company, is recorded as occupying the mill in 1816. The Tithe Map of 1839 shows the land owned by James Kerby included a forge. An 1861 advertisement for sale of the Bourn Brook Estate (Worcestershire) describes a rolling mill in the occupation of the Bourne Brook Iron Company within a short distance of the mining district. An iron founder and metal roller, Noah Fellows occupied it in 1863. Arthur Holden, a paint manufacturer was the occupant in 1873. From 1880 Frederick Spurrier worked the mill for rolling joined in 1908 by Henry Spurrier.

Farms
The Tithe Map shows that in 1839 there were seven farms in Selly Oak. Selly Farm was on the corner of Warwards Lane and St Stephen's Road. It was referred to in 1809. It was replaced by a petrol filling station in the 1970s and is now St Stephen's Court, students' apartments. Raddlebarn Farm was formerly Raddle Barn Doors Farm in a reference of 1776. It had 50 acres and was mainly used for grazing cattle. The farmhouse survived until 1974 when it was replaced with a row of modern terraced houses. The cowshed remained until the 1990s being used as a fabric shop and Kaplan's. Bournbrook Farm was at the junction of Exeter and Dawlish Roads. It was owned by John Heeley, a gunmaker who owned Bournbrook Forge and Mill. The track became a road extending as far as the Bristol Road just before the development of the estate began in the 1870s. The other farms gradually disappeared under the pressure of increasing industrialisation and the demand for building land. Selly Hill Farm was converted into Selly Hill House a minor country residence and Langleys Farm became 'The Langleys'.

Kerby's Pools
The 1839 Tithe Map and Apportionments for Northfield Parish, Worcestershire, show that in Bournbrook James Kerby owned 43 acres of land that included pools, a forge, and the Bell and Shovel Inn. Kerby's Pools was a Victorian pleasure resort in Bournbrook. Its three pools were devoted to boating and fishing and there was also a leisure garden. People would travel in great numbers to enjoy the entertainment and facilities the resort offered. Showell describes it as "a well-known and favourite resort on the outskirt of the borough, on the Bristol Road, and formerly one of the celebrated taverns and tea gardens of past days". There were a variety of attractions and events like fireworks displays. It was one of few spots for fishing within walking distance of Birmingham. There were some accidents: on 17 May 1875 Lawrence Joyce was drowned when the boat upset, and two men were drowned 23 July 1876.

The pools were filled in during the 1880s as the spread of heavy industry and the construction of terraced housing for the workers diminished the rural attractiveness of the location. In 1878 a cricket match was played at Bournbrook. At least 3,000 spectators were present when the game commenced at noon on Wednesday 25 June 1878. This number had risen to 12,000 by close of play. For the first two days batting, bowling, and fielding were excellent. A thunderstorm on the final day resulted in the pitch flooding and the game was abandoned.

Selly Oak Institute
George Cadbury was a teacher with the Adult School Movement. When he moved his chocolate factory to Bournville he created purpose built Institutes in Selly Oak, Stirchley, and Northfield to serve the working community. In 1894 he extended the coffee house he had built for the workers of the Selly Oak and Bournbrook villages to include a meeting place for the Society of Friends, and for use by other groups. When Elliott needed the Workman's Hall for his manager of the Elliott's Metal Company Ltd the Adult School moved to the Selly Oak Institute located in Bournbrook. The institute is a listed building. It was described as having a large club room containing three billiard tables, three committee rooms, and a large hall suited for concerts and dramatic performance. Various groups met there including a choir and a band. The institute was used by others including the Traders and Ratepayers Association, and the police who held a court there twice a month. In 1899 it boasted a temperance tavern 'The Cyclists Arms'. In 1937 it was the address of the relieving officer and the registrar of births, marriages, and deaths, as well as a Men's Social Club, a girls' gymnastic club, Selly Oak Choral Union and Miss Christine Boyse who taught dancing. The institute continued to hold Adult Education courses and facilitate community groups that have recently been relocated to the Hubert Road premises.

Selly Oak Water Pumping Station
The tall brick and terracotta building that resembles a French Gothic chapel was the Selly Oak Water Pumping Station. In the middle of the 19th century piped water gradually became available throughout the Birmingham area due to six wells that were built on the outskirts of the city. Although built in the 1870s by Birmingham Corporation Water Department it wasn't opened until 1879 by Joseph Chamberlain. Following the successful construction, in 1904, of the Elan Valley pipeline the well was retained in case of emergencies but was finally capped in 1920. The beam engine was built by Messrs.' James Watt and Co. and produced 1¼ million gallons each day. The site is now owned by Western Power.

Public Houses
Bournbrook Tavern, Bristol Road, was a Mitchells & Butlers pub with an unofficial name of 'The Steps' due to a flight of steps up to the entrance. It may have replaced an earlier pub called the Bowling Green Inn It was replaced by The Brook which has since been demolished and a hall of residence for students is now on the site.

In the 1881 census the Bristol Pear, on the corner of Bristol Road and Heeley Road, was the Heeley Arms the 1881 census shows with Thomas Thompson as publican. It changed its name to the Station Inn before adopting its current name.

Goose at the OVT The Inn was reported to have existed in c1700. On the 1839 Tithe Map the owner was James Kerby and it was called the Bell and Shovel Inn. Under the ownership of George North from 1859 the name changed to the Malt Shovel. Showell records that the public house, belonging to Holt's brewery, having been extended and partially rebuilt, and the grounds better laid out, the establishment was re-christened, and opened as the Bournbrook Hotel at Whitsuntide in 1877. For a short time it was a Firkin Pub, and it is now the Goose at the OVT.

The Gun Barrels was just in Edgbaston. During the late 19th century the pub became popular for prize fights because as the Bourn Brook was the county boundary, the pugilists could escape from the local police by crossing the brook which was beyond their jurisdiction. The pub had been rebuilt by 1987 and has since been demolished to make way for a sports centre containing Birmingham's first Olympic-size swimming pool. An earlier building called The Grinders appears at this location on an 1819 turnpike map. It may have been named after William Deakin's Gun Barrel Manufactory at Bournbrook in 1841. Like many rural inns the pub had an adjacent bowling green which may also have been used for croquet.

The Plough and Harrow was formerly called the New Inn in 1900 (delete) and took the name Plough and Harrow in 1904. The records of the Birmingham District of the Manchester Unity of Oddfellows show a lodge was located at the New Inn, in Selly Oak. The squirrel motif of Holt's Brewery can be seen on the gable. Holts Brewery was founded in 1887 in Aston, but in 1934 became Ansells Brewery Ltd. It was demolished pre 1987.

Tiverton Road Public Baths
The Tiverton Pool and Fitness Centre originally opened in Bournbrook on 28 January 1906 as Tiverton Road Public Baths. They were built by King's Norton and Northfield District Council to the design of E Harding Payne and built by a local building firm, T A Cole & Son. There were two swimming baths, one with a gallery for spectators, a children's bath and separate private baths for men and women. The larger men's swimming pool would be floored over in the winter months and the floorspace was used for concerts, political meetings, and dances. A smaller, shallower swimming bath, with steps down into it was provided for women and children. In 1911, it was taken over by Birmingham Baths Committee. More recently it has been converted into a health centre and now includes a "Pulse Point" gym as well as sunbeds and a sauna whilst retaining the swimming pool, the children's pool which is used as a smaller instruction pool and pool spectator seating facilities.

Selly Oak Library
The land on which the free library was built was donated by Thomas Gibbins (junior), a local councillor as well as being an industrialist. The philanthropic organisation, the Carnegie Foundation, financed the building. It was opened in the year 1906 and is run by the city council.

Education
In Bournbrook there is one surviving primary school: Tiverton Junior and Infant School. St Mary's C of E Primary School opened as a National School in 1860 with accommodation for 252 children. It was enlarged in 1872 and ten years later the boys and girls were separated. St Mary's National School was opened in Hubert Road Bournbrook in 1885 the girls were transferred there and the National School was used for boys and infants. In 1898 the schools were united for administration and called Selly Oak and Bournbrook Schools.

A third department was opened in 1898, in Dawlish Road, to accommodate 545 senior girls and the Infants department. Bournbrook School was used for boys with additional accommodation for 200 boys provided at the Bournbrook Technical Institute from 1901 to 1903. The Selly Oak and Bournbrook Temporary Council School was opened by King's Norton and Northfield Urban District Council in 1903 in the room that was previously used as an annexe of Selly Oak and Bournbrook C of E School. The premises were not satisfactory and the school was closed in 1904 when Raddlebarn Lane Temporary Council School was opened.

The schools were separated again in 1914 with the 1885 Hubert Road and 1898 Dawlish Road buildings becoming St Wulstan's C of E school. In 1946 accommodation was also provided in the People's Hall, Oak Tree Lane. St Mary's National School Bournbrook was closed in 1939 due to dwindling numbers. The Dawlish Road premises were sold in 1940 as a warehouse but bought by Birmingham Education Committee in 1952 to be an annexe to Tiverton Road County Primary School. Tiverton County Primary School was opened in 1906 by King's Norton and Northfield Urban District Council with accommodation for 510 children. Bournbrook Congregational Church provided accommodation for two classes in 1952. The buildings of the former St Wulstan's C of E School were bought in 1952 for an extension to the school. In 1954 the name was changed to Tiverton Road School.

There was a small Quaker boarding school for twelve boys aged eight to sixteen in a building at the junction of Selly Park Road and Oakfield Road. Although no longer a school, the building was destroyed by a bomb during the Second World War and new houses have now been built on the site.

Selly Oak Nursery School was founded in Greet in 1904, but in 1921 the school moved to premises in Tiverton Road which had been equipped by Mr. and Mrs. George Cadbury Junior.

Places of Worship
The following is from the (1964) VCH City of Birmingham

An Un-denominational church in Alton Road was registered for public worship from 1912 to 1945.

Bournbrook Chapel, a brick building seating 250 in Elmdon Road, was opened by members of Selly Oak (Bristol Road) Primitive Methodist church in 1901. In 1932 there was a church membership of 54.

Bournbrook Church Hall, Dartmouth Road, was built in 1932 with seating for 350. The church was formed in 1894 and in 1902, when services were being held in a corrugated iron building, numbered 30 members. For some years after 1902 Dartmouth Road was a mission of Francis Road. The vacant chapel has been converted into the Jalalabad Mosque and Islamic Centre.

Bournbrook Elim Church, Alton Road, was formerly an un-denominational mission, was acquired in 1944. The congregation, founded from Graham Street, had formerly met in a hired hall. The Church membership in 1957 was 110.

Bournbrook Gospel Hall, Tiverton Road was registered for public worship in 1895 and is probably identifiable with the Selly Oak Hall which claimed, in 1892, to have a Sunday evening congregation of 70. It was open in 1957. Tiverton Christian Fellowship began in 1890 before obtaining the land in Tiverton Road.

In 1894 George Cadbury opened the Selly Oak Institute which was used as a place of worship until the new meeting-house was built in 1927. In 1899 the institute consisted of a main hall, ancillary rooms, and a temperance tavern, or 'cyclists Arms'. In 1954 there was said to be an average Sunday attendance at the meeting-house of 70.

St John's Methodist Church was opened by the Wesleyans in 1835, and provided sittings for 108. It was replaced in 1877 by a new chapel costing £2,414 which provided sittings for 350. Important extensions were notified to the Wesleyan Chapel Committee in 1909. In 1940 St John's was described as a brick building seating 494 with a school hall and seven other ancillary rooms. The church originated in cottage meetings which followed the appointment in 1829 of C Bridgewater as inspector of tolls at the Selly Oak locks. There was a Sunday evening congregation of 35 in 1851, and a Sunday afternoon attendance of 118 in 1892. It was enlarged in 1910 and had a school hall. Church membership in 1932 was 150. It closed in 1957 when the congregation joined with the Primitive Methodists. After being used for less dignified functions it was demolished in the late 1970s. Lookers car salesroom now occupies the site.

St Paul's Church was opened by the Primitive Methodists in 1874. The congregation was founded in 1870 and met at first in the open air, then in cottages, and finally in a hired dance-hall, before the first chapel was built. In 1892 there was a Sunday afternoon attendance of 107. In c1908 a new brick chapel seating 500 was built which had, in 1940, five ancillary rooms, one of which was built as a school hall. Church membership in 1932 was 193. It was used after the two Methodist congregations were united until moving to a new Methodist church in Langley's Road in 1966.

St Stephen's, Selly Hill: As the congregation of St Mary's, the parish church grew, a chapel of ease was created in Selly Hill and a Mission in Dawlish Road. Robert Dolphin, who had bought Selly Hall and its farm lands in 1835, donated the land. St Stephen's was designed by Martin and Chamberlain in the decorated style. Contributions for the building of the church came from several notable businessmen: William Docker, Charles Winn, Thomas Webley, and Lord Calthorpe. The first stone was laid on 30 March 1870 and the St Stephen's Church was consecrated on 18 August 1871. The patrons are the bishop and trustees; the living is valued at £200; it is a perpetual curacy, and the incumbent is the Rev. R Stokes, M.A. Of the 300 sittings 100 are free. The parishes of parish of St Stephen and St Wulstan combined in 1980. The Lych-gate was added in 1924

St Wulstan's mission church was consecrated as St Wulstans in 1906. The church was exchanged in 1983 with Elim Pentecostal Church. St Wulstan's is now a smaller church in Alton Road

Three Tin tabernacles or temporary missions are recorded in Bournbrook, Raddlebarn Road, and Dawlish Road

Industry
Industry in Bournbrook was varied but engineering and gun making were significant.

Until the mid-sixties, Bournbrook was the home to Ariel motorcycles owned by first Charles Sangster then his son Jack Sangster, and with their main factory in Dale Road. Ariel was the first motorcycle company to employ noted designer Edward Turner from Peckham to join their established engineer, Val Page. He introduced the Ariel Square Four model and re-vamped their Ariel Red Hunter range. Ariel acquired Triumph motorcycles before the Second World War and, with Triumph, was itself later absorbed into the Birmingham Small Arms group when Jack Sangster joined their board. Although introducing new models, the Ariel Leader and Ariel Arrow, the Bournbrook site gradually lost importance within the BSA group with their final model, the ignominious Ariel 3 being wholly produced at Small Heath.

The Binding Site Ltd was founded 1983 to replace BDS Biologicals which made kits for diagnosing and monitoring illnesses. It occupied part of the Boxfoldia factory in Dale Road during the 1990s until it moved to King's Heath.

Boxfoldia Ltd was founded in 1921 by Charles Henry Foyle. It began in Ten Acres and moved to Dale Road in 1933 where it took over a large part of the Ariel Works. The company moved to Redditch c1990.

Cycle Components Manufacturing Company was founded in 1895 and Charles Sangster bought the trade name 'Ariel' from the Dunlop Cycle Company. It was built on site of Kerby's Pools. An Ariel cycle won the World Championships in 1897. First motor tricycle made in 1898 and the first motor cycle in 1905. About 200 people were employed in the 1930s. Charles went bankrupt in 1932 and the company was bought by his son Jack. It became part of BSA and moved to Small Heath.

Engineering company, Decimals Ltd, were making phosphorus grenades and wire-cutters in Grange Road for the Great War.

George Morgan Ltd, became incorporated in 1933. At the British Industries Fair in 1937 it was listed as a producer of drop forgings for the motor, motor-cycle, cycle, aircraft, shipbuilding, railway, and general engineering industries. They made parts for the Austin Motor Company at Longbridge. They traded from part of the Ariel factory until the mid-1980s.

Greenwood Paige and Co Ltd was established in 1899 by R W Greenwood as fruit preservers. From 1905 until 1915 they occupied the "Seville Works" 193-199 Tiverton Road, which had previously been a steam laundry, Loffets Sweet Factory; Swish Curtain Rails; Patrick Motors Spare Parts Division. Another jam making factory was further along Tiverton Road. most of the fruit used was grown in the West Midlands Region: strawberries from Bromsgrove, currants from Stratford, plums from Evesham, and damsons from Shropshire.

H W Ward and Company Ltd moved to Dale Road c1914. They were very significant producers of capstan and turret lathes. The buildings were demolished to make way for the new road and Halls of Residence for students at the University of Birmingham.

Lewis Woolf Grip-tight Ltd owned a rubber plantation in the Far East. At the British Industries Fair its products were listed as patent pneumatic and non-pneumatic baby soothers, rubber teats, bottles, and flycatchers. They had various premises in Bournbrook: rear of 507 Bristol Road; Old School in Hubert Road for rubber processing; Offices 144 Oakfield Road; 508 Bristol Road shop used for storage; 519 Bristol Road as a canteen. They also used the former TASCOS building on the corner of Alton Road until it was destroyed in a massive fire. A dentists surgery now occupies the site.

The Patent Enamel Company Ltd, founded in 1888, moved to a purpose-built factory in Heeley Road in the following year. Benjamin Baugh had begun to manufacture tough vitreous enamelled sheet wrought iron in Bradford Street in 1857. He combined with William Walters, and H W Elliott to form the Patent Enamel Co Ltd. The products were used for advertising on railway stations, hotels and public houses. Competition and the improved paper posters and plastics caused the business to decline and the company closed in 1965. The site was occupied by several small firms until it was destroyed by fire. Comet moved onto the site and later moved onto the Battery Retail Park.

Albert M Patrick founded Patrick Motors for his son Joseph A M Patrick. Beginning in 1930 it occupied the site of Edgbaston Garage Ltd on the Bristol Road. The company moved to Lakeside in King's Norton where they had a museum of cars called the Patrick Collection. The site became Tesco Express.

From the mid-1930s Sandvik Steel Band Conveyor & Engineering Co Ltd occupied the former tram sheds at 20 Dawlish Road. Their products include: cutting tools; equipment, tools, and services for mining and construction; and materials technology including steel belt process systems. In the 1970s they moved to Halesowen. The Douper Hall of Residence now occupies the site.

The now dilapidated building beside the library on the Bristol Road belonged to timber merchants W J Vincent & Co Ltd. They moved to Bournbrook in 1923 and had other premises including a storage area in Heeley Road beside the railway. In 1975 the business returned to Sparkbrook.

William Westley Richards founded the company of Westley Richards (Gunmakers) Ltd in 1812 although they didn't move to Grange Road until 1849. They crafted sporting guns for Edward VII and other members of the royal family. It was a highly integrated factory that mass-produced revolvers with a good deal of machinery. Westley engineering, trading from the same premises, became separate company in 1998. Their business was precision pressing and tool making. They were required to move in order that the phase of the Selly Oak New Road to the new Queen Elizabeth Hospital Birmingham could be completed. The demolition of the factory caused a lot of local protest.

A Wood Turning business operated from Rose Cottage from 1825 until the c1970s. The Rone-Clarke family turned 'woods' for bowls matches. Apparently they also made woods for Triplex to test the resistance of their glass used in airplanes!

Wrights Saddle Company who operated in one of the old Components factories in Dale Road and was apparently closed in 1961 by the British Cycle Corporation.

Notable buildings
In 1907 George Cadbury purchased Rookery Cottages a former yeoman's dwelling on the Selly Hill Estate. The cottages were dismantled and rebuilt as part of his model village, Bournville. He renamed the building Selly Manor and it is now a museum.
 * St Wulstan's Church (now the Elim church)
 * Bournbrook Friends' Institute, later the Selly Oak Institute
 * Goose at the Old Varsity Tavern (formerly the Bournbrook Hotel)

Notable residents

 * David Hughes, born Geoffrey Paddison (1929-1972), English popular tenor and opera singer of Welsh extraction, who lived in Alton Road
 * Charles Henry Tickle, otherwise Charlie Tickle, (born 1883), English professional footballer who played as an inside forward for Small Heath F.C. (later renamed Birmingham City F.C. in 1905), and who lived in both Heeley Road and Exeter Road

title: Bournbrook


text:
User talk:MattFox

Please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. -Loren 18:02, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:MattFox


text:
User:E-hadj

«« Check out my invention, the Privacy Tree. The more people who use it, the better it works. Help yourself. »»
I first learned about the Wiki concept when I used the quite decent TikiWiki to build the first Ultimate Frisbee Wiki. Sadly, my site is now offline, but one day I plan for it to make a glorious comeback! I'm leaning towards using the MediaWiki system for that purpose. So I'm teaching myself about it and the editor culture that goes with it.

Feel free to contact me via my Talk page with questions, or find me on Facebook.

- John

title: User:E-hadj


text:
River Doon

The River Doon (Abhainn Dhùin, ) is a river in Ayrshire, Scotland. Its course is generally north-westerly, passing near to the town of Dalmellington, and through the villages of Patna, Dalrymple, and Alloway, birthplace of Robert Burns. The source of the Doon is Loch Doon, high in the Galloway Hills.

In the 1930s Loch Doon was dammed to provide water to the Galloway Hydro Electric Scheme, today operated by Scottish Power.

The Doon is mentioned in Burns' classic narrative poem "Tam o' Shanter", along with the Brig o' Doon, which spans 72 ft across the river, just outside Alloway. The river is also the major setting for his lesser-known poem "The Banks O' Doon".

Course
The River Doon begins at Loch Doon, flowing in a northwesterly direction from the loch. The loch is dammed at the source of the river by the Loch Doon Dam. The river flows north from the loch through Ness Glen, a densely forested gorge.

The Doon ends its nearly 40-mile course at the Firth of Clyde, just south of Ayr.

title: River Doon