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Talk:The Roses of Heliogabalus

Golden Mean
I've removed the following, leaving the bare measurements, as I can find no references in the literature (I've checked several offline sources) that suggest the theory that Alma-Tadema used the Golden Mean in choosing the dimensions of the painting. I'm not saying that he would have been unaware of the Golden Mean, but all I can find is copies of this Wikipedia article.

"'The canvas measures 52' by 84 1/8', which may, like ratios within the painting itself, be intended to encode the golden mean. (84 1/8 inches divided by 52 inches equals 1.6177884..., and the golden mean equals 1.61803398875...)'" Ken 03:10, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * I just removed a similar statement with slightly different dimensions. Even if these dimensions are right, our connecting it to the golden ratio violates WP:NOR unless we cite a source that makes such an observation.  Dicklyon (talk) 06:33, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Inscription
I was wondering if anyone could translate the inscription partly visible on a bowl in the painting. MagistraMundi (talk) 09:59, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

File:The Roses of Heliogabalus.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:The Roses of Heliogabalus.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on June 26, 2017. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2017-06-26. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 03:03, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Which one is Heliogabalus?
Why would Alma-Tadema paint this scene with someone other than Heliogabalus placed almost at the upper dead centre of the painting? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:10, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I think the new refs, though neither actually WP:RSs, are enough to settle it. I wish the refs were formatted properly though. Johnbod (talk) 16:12, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course. If you think they are adequate, I will run ReFill when I have a moment. Or feel free yourself. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:19, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

We could of course pull some random new sources off a Google search. Or we could just rely on the references that the article already contained, such as Archdeadon Frederick Farrar, writing in Good Words in 1888: "Elagabalus! — there lies that shame and monstrosity of the human race, the loathly boy-emperor, on his couch of silver and mother-of-pearl, in his long golden Phoenician robe, leaning on cushions stuffed with the small plumes of partridges..."

Pace penelope.uchicago.edu, Herodian V.3.6 is not a complete answer. It says: "Bassianus [that is, Elagabalus] was the chief priest of this god. ... He went about in barbarian dress, wearing long-sleeved purple tunics embroidered with gold which hung to his feet; robes similarly decorated with gold and purple covered his legs from hip to toe, and he wore a diadem of varicolored precious gems."

The depiction in the painting does not quite match a "long-sleeved purple [tunic] [that is, a dalmatic] embroidered with gold". That said, there are other sources identifying the person in the gold robe and diadem as Elagabalus (and why would someone else be wearing a diadem at Elagabalus's feast) and I've not found any sources identifying any other person in the painting as Elagabalus. Shrug. Theramin (talk) 01:19, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

 * No, probably not the complete answer. We certainly wouldn't want to pull some random new sources off a Google search, would we, as that might suggest we were just lazy and had no knowledge of Classical literature. I wonder would Sir Larry himself have read those? Or else I wonder what other paintings he might have taken as his inspiration for this composition - the article doesn't seem to mention any. I think book sources, by known art experts, which describe the identities of the those in the picture, plainly and unambiguously, might be a good idea. Perhaps those "other sources" you mention might be suitable? I guess Archdeacon Frederic Farrar must have known what he was talking about, as he was a Classics scholar, so yes we could always re-use that one. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:37, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Well this was brought to my attention through Talk:Elagabalus. I'll state what I was about to say on that page. Elagabalus was famous for his choice of effeminate lavish clothing: He wore the richest clothing, draping himself in purple robes embroidered in gold; to his necklaces and bracelets he added a crown, a tiara glittering with gold and jewels from Herodian of Antioch 5.5.3 and [Maesa] was afraid that [Elagabalus'] appearance, obviously foreign and wholly barbaric, would offend those who saw him; they were not used to such garb and considered his ornaments suitable only for women - from 5.5.5. The uchicago source cites 5.3.6 which is similar in description to 5.5.3. I don't know why his robe is pure gold, instead of purple with gold, but that's almost certainly Elagabalus in the gold. You might also wish to compare this photo of a contemporary bust of Elagabalus to the face and hair of the man in the painting, they are quite similar. I'm fully aware of the OR aspect to this comment, but I did a search of both google and google books and came back with very little, and nothing related to the characters depicted. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:59, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * One more thing, you can discount anyone wearing cloth wool from being Elagabalus, per 5.5.4: [Elagabalus] loathed Greek and Roman garments because they were made of wool, in his opinion an inferior material; only the Serian cloth (Silk) met with his approval. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:02, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * And which petals belonged to the rose by any other name? Randy Kryn (talk) 11:07, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Indeed! Did Ancient Rome even have that cultivar?? We probably need advice from a horticulture expert like User:PaleCloudedWhite. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The Romans grew a lot of roses, but they would not have been that cultivar, nor anything resembling it, as that cultivar is a hybrid tea, a class of rose that only came into existence in the 19th century, as a result of reliably remontant roses being traded from China. Exactly which cultivars (if any) the Romans grew isn't known, though it would have been cultivars of European and possibly Middle Eastern roses (e.g. Rosa gallica, Rosa x alba and possibly Rosa x damascena etc.), which were all in shades of pink, red, white etc. - no orange or yellow, which again came from Chinese roses. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 13:06, 1 December 2018 (UTC)   Expert? How very dare you?!
 * You see, I told you he was an expert. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:07, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It took me too long to realize. Yes, indeed. A silk cloth is a cloth by any other name. Textile vs material. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:59, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I had noticed the similarity to the Palazzo Nuovo Musei Capitolini bust, but I didn't like to say anything! Martinevans123 (talk) 11:08, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Heliogabalus' position in the painting
Alma-Tadema was known for his careful research and realism. If you search for images of Heliogabalus, you will see what he looks like and recognize that he is the youth in a white robe holding a handful of grapes. He was assassinated when he was still in his teens. The man in the golden robe is clearly older than his teens and does not look like Heliogabalus. The fat bloke next to Heliogabalus is also obviously older than his teens. MagistraMundi (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:44, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I think the subject of your post here might be relevant to the one above. So you might want to just join it on. The edit that you just made here is not supported by the current sources - so you've introduced a contradiction. Also your edit summary "True description of Heliogabalus" seems a little too bold, looking at the discussion here so far. So I think you ought to self-revert until consensus has been clearly established. I suspect that pictorial representation of figures from Classical Rome have often involved a certain amount of"poetic license" as far as age is concerned, especially when the event depicted was not an actual historical one. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:58, 1 December 2018 (UTC) p.s. I'm having some difficulty in locating a robe which is actually "white" and identifying anyone who is holding a bunch of grapes.
 * I have removed the description until consensus is reached. The claims that the bloke in the golden robe is Heliogabalus are not by classical historians and are obviously wrong. Have you searched for images of Elagabalus from the relevant era? If you have, you should clearly see which figure in the painting is Heliogabalus. MagistraMundi (talk) 10:19, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think searching for images of Elagabalus, from whatever era, and comparing them with this painting, might be construed as WP:OR. I think we need to rely on good i.e. expert sources, such as those mentioned by User:Theramin above. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:25, 1 December 2018 (UTC) p.s. except you didn't revert, you removed the description wholesale, together with both of the new supporting sources. At least what we now have is quite neutral. Perhaps you have some better less lazy sources to present yourself?
 * The woman in white robes with a handful of grapes is seated at the table to the right of a quite plump individual holding a blue cup of ... wine presumably, given the redness of the cheeks, a sure sign of intoxication. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:09, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Hilarious. No wonder Wikipedia has such a big reputation for accuracy and honesty. MagistraMundi (talk) 11:15, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * But she's a woman (and the quite plump man looks a bit demonic, if you ask me). Ah, maybe Elagabalus has drunk so much he's actually under the table? Not surprised he's hiding if, as the Augustan History suggests, this is actually a murder scene. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:17, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh dear oh dear. How can I report you for homophobia and perhaps transphobia too? You appear to know nothing about Heliogabalus and are now mocking xir appearance. You know, my only interest here was to improve the article. Your interest seems to be in playing adolescent games. Natura abhorret vacuum, as Heliogabalus might have said. MagistraMundi (talk) 11:15, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I think he'd need quite a big vacuum to deal with all those petals. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:28, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Positively Wildean! How blessed Wikipedia is to have individuals of such intelligence, maturity and wit working on its articles. But it's no skin off my nose if this article makes false statements, so feel free to revert. After all, as Heliogabalus might also have said: Infinitus est numerus stultorum. (Your cue, Oscar.) MagistraMundi (talk) 11:48, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Why, thank you so much. As you know, I never joke. But feel free to offer some actual sources in support of your claim. Thanks! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:01, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Well, I might have anticipated this. I very much doubt that Elagabalus would appreciate you calling them "xir", given that it was their request that they be addressed as "lady". I haven't touched on Roman history in quite a while, not since rewriting Macrinus' and Caracalla's articles. I read both Dio's and Herodian's accounts of Macrinus' and Elagabalus' reigns for the article on their battle as well. I'm fully aware of Dio's recounting of Elagabalus' offer of significant sums of money to any physician who succeeded in incising a vagina into Elagabalus' body. Dio, rather importantly, was not in Rome during Elagabalus' reign and did not meet him. Most of the information Dio received was hearsay that had traveled hundreds of miles. Equally importantly, Herodian makes no mention of this event. Moreover, Elagabalus is from Syria. His mother, grandmother (a Phoenician) and his proposed father (Marcellus) are all from Syria. Elagabalus is, at least partly, Syrian (Semitic). One might question the selection of snow white for Elagabalus. If, as you say, Alma Tadema is recognized for their careful research, then I would expect that heritage to be reflected in the painting. *Looks at painting* is it me or does the golden robed man have a slightly more bronzed complexion than anyone else in the painting? Mr rnddude (talk) 14:44, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Looks at painting* is it me or does the golden-robed man have a slightly older and uglier appearance than one would expect of someone described by Herodian in this way: "Bassianus, in the prime of youth, was the handsomest lad of his time. With physical beauty, bloom of youth, and splendor of attire combining to produce the same effect, the youth might well be compared to the handsome statues of Bacchus. [...] His youthful beauty attracted the eyes of all."? And are there perhaps classical sculptures extant enabling us to compare the features of the golden-robed man with those of Elagabalus? You know, I have a funny feeling there are. MagistraMundi (talk) 10:11, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Cutting through the ever so amusing back-and-forth above, are there any published sources identifying Elagabalus as "the youth in a white robe holding a handful of grapes"? Or is that assertion just original research? This article should reflect the sources, not one editor's unsupported personal opinion.

Until someone finds an explanation or description of the painting by Alma-Tadema himself, the nearest we have so far is the contemporaneous analysis of Farrar. "Elagabalus! — there lies that shame and monstrosity of the human race, the loathly boy-emperor, on his couch of silver and mother-of-pearl, in his long golden Phoenician robe..."

And then we have several other sources identifying Elagabalus as the bearded youth in gold, including two recently added to and then removed from the article. That is supported by plenty of other more reliable sources too.

To which we could add the account in the Scriptores Historiae Augustae on which this painting must be based (as far as I am aware, the incident does not appear in Cassius Dio or Herodian): So no doubt that is the source of the gold robe, supported by references elsewhere to Elagabalus wearing robes of purple and gold.
 * According to 21.5, "In a banqueting-room with a reversible ceiling he once overwhelmed his parasites with violets and other flowers, so that some were actually smothered to death, being unable to crawl out to the top" / "oppressit in tricliniis versatilibus parasitos suos violis et floribus, sic ut animam aliqui efflaverint, cum erepere ad summum non possent"
 * Then 23.3 carries on: "He would wear a tunic made wholly of cloth of gold, or one made of purple, or a Persian one studded with jewels..." / "usus est aurea omni tunica, usus et purpurea, usus et de gemmis Persica".

Whatever we think Elagabalus may or may not have looked like, it would be a mistake to expect a Victorian artist to paint a photorealistic depiction of an event that probably never happened nearly 2,000 years before. Theramin (talk) 01:41, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * No, I think there is nothing but MagistraMundi's personal OR. We've had enough fun, & should stick with what sources we have. Johnbod (talk) 01:52, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree. I'm sure MagistraMundi's personal view may be perfectly genuine. But there is no place for it in deciding the content of this article. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:39, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Face: The Facts
There are some heavy technical details here (and *r*g*n*l r*s**rch), so I hope everyone will follow what I've done. There are two candidates for the role of Heliogabalus in the painting. Using sophisticated image-manipulation software, I have taken their faces and placed these next to busts of Heliogabalus orientated at roughly the same angle. Those editors in possession of sophisticated facial-recognition software (hint: try looking between your ears) can compare the faces and the busts and decide which face is more likely to have been intended by Alma-Tadema to represent the face of Heliogabalus. I hope editors will agree that the man in the golden robe is obviously not Heliogabalus. I further hope that they will agree that the youth in the white robe obviously is Heliogabalus. The eyes, noses, lips, chins, cheeks and so on are almost identical. Only the height of the upper lip differs significantly between the face and the bust.

N.B. Alma-Tadema was a realistic painter and careful researcher. Before creating this painting, he undoubtedly examined representations of Heliogabalus and read descriptions of him in classical history. Heliogabalus, as emperor, was described by classical historians as a charming, good-looking, effeminate youth. I do not think this description matches the appearance of the man in the golden robe. I do think this description matches the appearance of the youth in the white robe. And perhaps "man" and "youth" are further clues as to which figure was intended by Alma-Tadema to represent the youth Heliogabalus? MagistraMundi (talk) 10:11, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Yes, I can follow what you've done. And the comparison of the images above is very useful. But you are mistaken - these are not "facts" at all. The only reason "there are two candidates" is your own personal view. As far as I am concerned, that young woman looks nothing like the bust, from any angle. Furthermore, regardless of his careful research, we have to allow Alma-Tedema some artistic license. The sources that we have, as well as the composition of the painting, support the figure in the golden robe. I think it's now time for you to give up your personal crusade here. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:38, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Btw, the file is called "Faces from The Roses of Heliogabalus compared with busts of Elagabalus", but in fact these are two views of the same bust, MC 470 in Rome, which we can probably assume AT knew. This looks rather different in different photos, as is often the case (angle, lighting). There is also the Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek, Copenhagen bust, which looks more like the images on his coins.  Both show rather wispy facial hair, like the gold robe & unlike the white robe figures in the painting. But all this is pure OR. Johnbod (talk) 16:18, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

 * The Capitol Museum bust reminds me of Martin Freeman with added mutton chops. But I'm pretty sure he didn't sit for Sir Larry. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:42, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Face the facts. As an aside, the image of the painting is clickable to almost microscopic levels, and some of the detail in it is extraordinary (I wish he had that amount of detail throughout the whole painting). Darn fine artist. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:00, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * This (pp 189-184 - not all of which I can see) is interesting on his iconography. As so often, it turns out to be rather complicated. Johnbod (talk) 17:16, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I can see pages 189, 193 and 194. And yes, the bits on those pages do look a bit complicated. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:20, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually, I can now see all that range - some took a while to appear. Johnbod (talk) 17:25, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I'll try again later. I see that the Naples "refaced" statue doesn't show his gender reassignment surgery (or at least, not fully completed). Martinevans123 (talk) 17:26, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that the physicians were unable to conduct the surgery. The sculptors on the other hand were simply being xphobic. Mr rnddude (talk) 17:29, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh well. Try not to feel too bad about it, Mr rddude. Perhaps surprising to find Elagabalus mentioned in a 2013 National Review article about Bradley Manning! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:37, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, she certainly catches the mood of 2018. Johnbod (talk) 03:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I’d like to thank MagistraMundi for a stimulating and lively discussion here, and for posting the images for comparison. I’m sure most of us know more about Heliogabalus than we did to start with. But regarding the position of Heliogabalus in the painting, it seems that consensus is firmly against him. So I propose that the text describing him as the figure in the golden robe, with suitable supporting sources, should now be restored to the article and this discussion be brought to a close. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:40, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree. Johnbod (talk) 09:49, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

 * Marty -- I am deeply upset by your false assertion that I am here on a "personal crusade". In fact, I am here in a foolish attempt to improve one small corner of Wikipedia by removing the Darkness of Error and replacing it with the Light of Truth. Alas! As Heliogabalus himself learnt only too well: some folk prefer Satanic Darkness to Godly Light. Furthermore, regardless of his careful research, we have to allow Alma-Tedema some artistic license. I see. You think that Alma-Tadema would use artistic license to portray a good-looking, charming youth of c. 18 years as an ugly, gloomy man in his 20s. I suggest that you need to learn more about both art and human psychology. This is artistic licence:

 * David_-_Napoleon_crossing_the_Alps_-_Malmaison2.jpg

 * Artists use license to portray people and situations as more potent and impressive, not less. It is not credible that Alma-Tadema carried out careful research and then ignored his research to portray Heliogabalus as quite unlike his sculptures and as both older and uglier. that young woman looks nothing like the bust Then I suggest that you are running either faulty facial-recognition software or faulty ethical software. Have you ever thought of upgrading? Then again, it might be a virus. the figure in the golden robe. How odd. You describe Heliogabalus as a "young woman", yet lapse into vagueness -- "the figure" -- for the man in the golden robe. You seem to be reluctant to admit that he is obviously older than his teens. The sources that we have, as well as the composition of the painting, support the figure in the golden robe.

 * The composition of the painting does not support the "figure", i.e. man, in the golden robe. It supports the fat man to the left of Heliogabalus. Said fat man is the dramatic focus of the painting. The man in the golden robe looks bored and uninvolved. The fat man is gloating over the "deadly" practical joke, as one would expect the wicked Heliogabalus of legend to do. Not that anyone looks in any danger of death from the falling petals. The painting is not really an attempt to portray a scene of murder. It is subtle and full of symbolism and misdirection. Too subtle for some, obvs. MagistraMundi (talk) 09:59, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

 * I believe Alma-Tedema portrayed Heliogabalus as a man. The only man that fits the bill, by virtue of his position in the painting and because of how he is described by historians, is the man in the golden robe. I hope that's clear enough. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:27, 5 December 2018 (UTC) p.s. I don't see the fat man as the subject of the painting. Sorry if you think that's because I have "faulty virus-ridden software" in my brain.
 * But Heliogabalus is described by classical historians as a charming and good-looking youth, not as an ugly, gloomy man in his 20s. The gold robe is a sartorial detail, not a sine qua non. And I don't think your software is both faulty and virus-ridden. That would be over-egging the pudding (if you'll forgive the comparison). I think it's one or the other, not both. Or possibly it's excessive humidity. Are you careful to wear a hat in the rain? MagistraMundi (talk) 10:50, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Hats in the rain now. Wow, and I thought I was a bit random. I think the guy in the golden robe is reasonably youthful and quite good-looking, not "an ugly, gloomy man in his 20s". I happen to think the face of the bust is a bit ugly. But these are just my wholly subjective personal views. I think we need to rely on sources here, e.g. expert art critics and historians. As I said before, I think it's time to restore the article detail, per the sources, and to stop the subjective discussion here. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:59, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not being "random," I'm trying to help you perform at your intellectual peak. If you neglect to wear a hat in the rain, your head will get wet and this might affect the working of your intra-cranial software. And something is certainly affecting the working of your ICS. It might be faulty programming, or a virus, or excessive humidity, or dust, or biscuit crumbs, or cosmic rays -- who knows? Not me. But I do know that it isn't all of them at once. That would be ridiculous.
 * I have no problem with the article saying that the golden-robed man is Heliogabalus, but I think the article should note that this is the opinion of some critics and not conclusive. BTW, classical history does not describe Heliogabalus as "reasonably youthful and quite good-looking," but as a literal youth and, in the flesh, as very good-looking. MagistraMundi (talk) 12:02, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Random or not, you have totally lost me with the effect of rain on my "intra-cranial software", I'm afraid. But if you "have no problem with the article saying that the golden-robed man is Heliogabalus", why didn't you say that before you began your epic argument with this edit on 29 November?? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:39, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Note that The Amazing Emperor Heliogabalus, a scholarly bio of 1911 by John Stuart Hay, says (Preface xiv), "I much regret that I have been unable to find any portraits of the Emperor for whose authenticity Bernouilli will vouch. Alone of the whole family there remain authentic busts of Julia Mamaea and Julia Paula, neither of whom are important enough to be included, since we are unable to give a portrait of Elagabalus himself. I have therefore confined myself to the use of coins, whose veracity is undoubted, hoping that the reader will supply from his imagination that charm and beauty which the biographers have been unwillingly forced to allow both to the Emperor and his mother." (my bold). "Bernoulli" = Bernoulli, Johann Jacob, Römische Ikonographie, 4 vols., the German starts here. I think he thinks MC 470 is Geta, although it may have been attributed to Elagabalus already. Or the attribution of MC 740 etc came well after AT painted the picture, as I warned above might be the case. Good luck running ID parades with the coins! Johnbod (talk) 23:58, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Toxic Transphobia
Sorry, girls: I was joking about transphobia, so your trans-Wildean wit super-scintillated in vain. BTW, Mr rnddude, in terms of issues around LGBTQIA+ issues: you haven't said whether you think Mr Gold-Robe matches this description by Mr Herodian: "Bassianus, in the prime of youth, was the handsomest lad of his time. With physical beauty, bloom of youth, and splendor of attire combining to produce the same effect, the youth might well be compared to the handsome statues of Bacchus." I don't think he does, but then, unlike your good self, I'm neither deeply versed in the classics nor capable of being honest. Obvs. MagistraMundi (talk) 09:59, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It didn't look like a joke. But if you're "not capable of being honest", at least we know where we stand. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:31, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * But if I'm not capable of being honest, how could I admit my incapacity? Are there perhaps two of me, one honest and one not? Anyway, Martita, let's test your own honesty. If poss, please answer the question I addressed to Mr rnddude. And of my two candidates for the role of Heliogabalus in TRoH, do you think the figure in the golden robe looks more or less like the bust of Heliogabalus than the young woman? Or is it impossible to say, cozza artistic lincense, adverse astrological factors and the vast gulf of time that separates us girls from the Victorian era? MagistraMundi (talk) 10:40, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Martita now, no longer Oscar? Those are your two candidates, no one else's. But I gave you my honest answer already that "the young woman looks nothing like the bust, from any angle." I hope that's clear enough. Again. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:49, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Martita now, no longer Oscar?. You're a shape-shifter and chameleon, like the late, great David Bowie. Of whom I assume you are a veteran fan. Please don't throw my compliments back in my face. MagistraMundi (talk) 10:54, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * You could at least compare me to a real man, like Martina. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:36, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The book I linked to above notes that there are I think 6 contemporary unaltered (after his damnatio memoriae) portraits that are thought to be E. But none are certainly of him, unlike the coins. It would be unwise to assume that these identifications are the same now as pre-1888. Vast numbers of identifications have changed over the intervening years. If taking this seriously< one would need to check in 19th-century books what portraits were then thought to be of E. Johnbod (talk) 10:57, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm, presuming you want a serious answer; I would not consider myself "deeply versed in the classics", I simply said I am familiar with them. It's difficult to answer your question, I don't find the male form attractive at all. So, I'd be naturally inclined to agree that the white robed individual fits the "youthful attractive" description better; but again, I see a cute girl, not a "handsome lad". Moreover, I'm concerned with Herodian's comparison to Bacchus given the "stud"-like qualities on display in this painting (my attempt at humour). I do think you're being honest in your selection, I just don't see that it matches. Ignore appearance for a second. Can you explain why Julia Soaemias, mother of Elagabalus, in a purple robe and wearing a crown, would be sitting next to somebody other than her child? Can you explain why Elagabalus would not be a) in a controlling position and b) the focal point of the painting? Can you explain why Elagabalus, who by Herodian's own account hated Roman clothing and wool, would be wearing a traditional white woolen robe instead of a gold embroidered silk one (should be purple and gold, but oh well)? Why is Elagabalus not wearing any of the gold necklaces, bracelets, crowns, tiara's or any other jewellery, that they were known for? (both from Herodian 5.5) "Mr. Gold-Robe" matches all of these descriptions, yet the white robed youth does not. Returning to appearance for a moment, can you explain how snow white matches the descriptions of Syrian heritage from either Dio or Herodian? or where the facial hair from the busts are? I can't imagine why on earth Elagabalus would be half tucked away behind another courtier, lost in a day-dream, and munching on grapes, while the scene plays out around them. Thanks though, this was the first serious look I've had at anything to do with the Severans in a very long time. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:04, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for a considered answer, and yes, I was being serious. You're right that, if we ignore appearance, there are some strong factors supporting him-of-the-golden-robe. But we can't ignore appearance. For Sol's sake, this is a painting by one of the most skilled artists and meticulous visual researchers who ever lived. Heliogabalus was notorious in Victorian times for his youth, his effeminacy, and his good looks. He-of-the-golden-robe doesn't match those criteria. And the youth clearly looks much more like the bust that AT, we can assume, saw during his research. Furthermore, the youth is wearing a crown of roses. I think AT was playing artistic games and deliberately misdirecting spectators, but winking at the cognescenti with details like the crown of roses. Who might we expect to be wearing roses in a painting called The Roses of Heliogabalus? Heliogabalus, of course. Heliogabalus was also famous for his practical jokes and his subversion of conventions. This painting reflects that. It is much more complex than some commentators recognize. MagistraMundi (talk) 11:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Are there historical sources which suggest Elagabalus wore flowers in his hair? So AT is allowed artistic license when he is "playing artistic games", but not when he adjusts the subject's face to fit his compostion? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:02, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * How did making a good-looking youth of 18 into an ugly man of 20+ "fit his composition"? And although I don't know of any sources saying explicitly that Heliogabalus wore flowers in his hair, I do know of numerous sources saying that he was exactly the kind of person of whom one might expect such flamboyant floralistic fashioneering. Assuming, that is, one has some grasp of human psychology and LGBTQIA+ culture. (LGBTQIA+ is another joke, btw. I'm not a size queen.) MagistraMundi (talk) 12:11, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Can we please stop all this? Wikipedia is based on sources; editors should, with due weight, present information according to how it explicitly appears in reliable sources. Everything else, including large chunks of the preceding discussion/s, is WP:SYNTH and original research, and thus irrelevant on Wikipedia. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 12:15, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * He could be 18. He's not "ugly". But again, these are just subjective opinions. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:17, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Roses of Heliogabalus


text:
Carlo Mollino

Carlo Mollino (6 May 1905 – 27 August 1973) was an Italian architect, designer, photographer and educator.

Biography
Carlo Mollino was born on 6 May 1905, in Turin, a major industrial city and cultural centre in northwest Italy. He was the only son of Jolanda Testa (1884-1966) and Eugenio Mollino (1873-1953), a prolific engineer who built more than 300 buildings of the most diverse types.

Carlo Mollino graduated in architecture in July 1931 at the Royal Superior School of Architecture in Turin. Before and after graduation he collaborated with his father who mentored him in the design of technical architectural elements and had him oversee construction sites.

Only in 1933 he began his personal career winning a competition for the construction of an office building in Cuneo and writing "The Life of Oberon", a fictional short story published in the architectural magazine Casabella.

During the war years he wrote a volume of photographic history and criticism, Message from the Darkroom (Il Messaggio dalla Camera Oscura, published in 1949), and a manual of skiing technique, Introduction to Downhill Skiing (Introduzione al Discesismo, published in 1950).

In the 1940s he began to write essays on architecture and from 1949 up until his death he taught at the Faculty of Architecture in Turin, becoming a full professor in 1953.

In 1955 he designed a car, the, which competed that year in the 24 Hours of Le Mans. In 1956 he began to fly specializing in aerobatics and later participated in Italian and European competitions.

Carlo Mollino did not marry and had no children, he experienced an important love story with the sculptor Carmelina Piccolis between 1948 and 1955.

He passed away in the early afternoon of 27 August 1973, while working in his studio.

Architecture
Thanks to an extended apprenticeship with his civil engineer father before, during, and after studying architecture, Carlo Mollino was highly skilled in a range of building technologies and materials while commanding all aspects of the construction process (for example he produces working drawings for the doors and windows of most of his buildings).

In the summer of 1931, right after graduation from architecture school in Turin, Mollino travelled to Berlin where he met Erich Mendelsohn. The direct contact with Expressionism had a lasting impact on his architectural design as can already be seen in the first building he completed, the Farmers' Federation in Cuneo (Sede Federazione Agricoltori, 1933–35).

In 1933 Mollino published a multi-part short story entitled The Life of Oberon (Vita di Oberon), in the prominent architectural journal Casabella. It is a personal manifesto of his way of looking at and practising architecture written as prose fiction. It is with this manifesto, which bears traces of Futurism for which he had a youthful infatuation, that Mollino symbolically began a creative journey in which he would consistently combine a dual role as architect and storyteller.

In 1934 Mollino began to explore Surrealism, a movement that remained a constant source of fascination throughout his life, publishing in August his second short story, The Duke’s Lover (L’amante del duca, 1934–36), a dreamlike fiction whose protagonist is the imaginary architect Faust.The Horse Riding Club of Turin (Società Ippica Torinese, 1937–40), is Mollino's first masterpiece and his first opportunity to give shape to a modern surrealist architecture that extended his interior designs and furniture completed in the 1930s in order to “move the concepts of surreal interior space towards an intransigently functional unity".

In 1941, Mollino published an article about the Turinese architect-engineer Alessandro Antonelli made famous by his towering Mole, which reveals the beginning of a strong interest in the “organic”, not to be understood as a reference to the architecture of Frank Lloyd Wright; rather he was interested in the structures of animal and plant organisms as a source of investigation and inspiration for his designs ranging from coat hangers to buildings. In those same years Mollino theorized a new form of “synthetic eclecticism” based on a consideration of architecture as being a language. During this period of time dominated by the Second World War, Mollino wrote a number of articles and books about art, architecture, photography, and skiing; he wrote with the point of view of a practising designer, thus further consolidating his identity of architect and storyteller.

Just as the war ended, he put into practice his ideas about architecture as language by designing the most influential of his buildings, the Lago Nero Sled Station (Slittovia del Lago Nero, 1946–1947). Its structure is made up of cutting-edge Vierendeel trusses integrated with a traditional interlocking log enclosure; Mollino thus created an extraordinarily dynamic and three-dimensional building. The building, which he himself defined as a "flying chalet", is inspired by the traditional Walser alpine architecture that Mollino studied in the summer of 1930 and for which he produced remarkably analytical drawings. The Lago Nero Sled Station is part of a group of projects such as the unbuilt Casa Capriata (1945) and the Casa del Sole (1945–54) in Cervinia that are inspired by traditional vernacular architecture reworked in modernist terms.

In 1945, together with the sculptor Umberto Mastroianni, Mollino won the competition for a war memorial that was completed in 1947 for the Monumental Cemetery on the outskirts of Turin.

In 1950 he won the competition for the redesign of the interior of Turin's RAI Auditorium within an existing building.

In 1952 he designed the Casa Cattaneo on a site overlooking the Lake Maggiore; the two-story house is composed of a long stretching cantilevered beam supported at one end by two leg-shaped pillars, resembling an animal crouching on the lawn slope, ready to jump.

The death of his father in December 1953 threw Mollino into a personal crisis that eventually led him to abandon his architectural practice for several years in favour of other activities such as automobile design, flying aerobatics and nude photography.

Finally, in 1959 he returned to architecture participating in the competition for an exhibition pavilion to be erected in Turin on the occasion of the celebration of the hundred years of Italy's unification. From this moment on, his large-scale urban buildings, which continue to function today, are characterized by reinforced concrete structures; these include the Chamber of Commerce of Turin (1965–73) and the Regio Opera House (Teatro Regio di Torino, 1973). The Regio Opera House, an important part of the monumental Piazza Castello, provides fantastic spaces in which Mollino translates the imaginary visions of Piranesi's Prisons into a labyrinthine brutalist curved space on four levels that constitute the foyer of the theatre.

Buildings

 * Offices of the Farmers' Federation (Sede Federazione Agricoltori, 1933–35, Cuneo, extant)
 * Horse Riding Club of Turin (Società Ippica Torinese, 1937–40, Turin, demolished in 1960)
 * Monument to the Fallen (Monumento ai caduti per la libertà, 1945–47, Turin monumental cemetery, extant)
 * Casa del Sole (1945–54, Cervinia, extant)
 * Lago Nero Sled Station (Slittovia del lago Nero, 1946–47, Sauze d'Oulx, extant)
 * RAI Auditorium (1950–52, Turin, extant with major modifications)
 * Casa Linot (1951-1952, Bardonecchia, extant)
 * Apartment Building on Viale Maternità (Casa ad alloggi sul Viale Maternità, 1951–1953, extant)
 * Casa Cattaneo (1952, 1953, Agra, extant)
 * Casa Olivero (1962, La Thuile, extant)
 * Taleuc Rascard (Baita Taleuc, 1963–65, Champoluc, extant)
 * Chamber of Commerce of Turin (Camera di commercio, 1964–73, Turin, extant)
 * Regio Opera House (Teatro Regio di Torino, 1965–73, Turin, extant)

Interior Design and Furniture
Carlo Mollino's furniture design is undoubtedly the most recognized part of his work; his pieces reached the highest prices on the international 20th-century art and design market.

Yet Mollino had been especially interested and worked mainly as an interior designer. His furniture is intended to be part of a whole, playing a specific role within the space of an overall interior design. Occasionally he also experimented with single pieces of furniture typically designed for exhibitions.

He never designed for companies nor were his pieces mass-produced. He was not an industrial designer, yet he tackled the problem of industrial production and especially his last designs, those between 1950 and 1953, would have well-suited mass-production, even though he never pursued such a possibility.

His 1930s interior designs are particularly significant since Mollino was one of the first architects, internationally speaking, to merge Surrealism with the Modern Movement, effectively responding to the question of what Surrealist Modern architecture might look like.

After publishing a study on the engineer Alessandro Antonelli in 1941, Mollino entered a second phase of his design ideas. He began to think of an interior space as a metaphorical natural setting, he enriched the surrealist theme with the one of the “organic”. The structures and the aesthetics of the organisms, whether plants or animals, became a model for his furniture which took on extremely three-dimensional, dynamic and expressive forms.

The third phase of his design dates to 1950 when he exhibited at Italy at Work, Her Renaissance in Design Today, a show opening at the Brooklyn Museum in New York. He began to use plywood and simplified his furniture and interiors in a modernist way, while paying particular design attention to the joints binding the components making up the furniture.

After 1954 Mollino became substantially disinterested in interior and furniture designs; few interesting examples exist after that date among which the Lutrario Ballroom, 1959–60, and Casa Mollino, 1960–68, his last interior design, today a museum.

Apartments and interiors

 * Casa Miller, Turin (1936)
 * Casa D'Errico, Turin (1937)
 * Casa Devalle I, Turin (1939)
 * Casa Devalle II, Turin (1940)
 * Casa A. and C. Minola, Turin (1944–46)
 * Casa F. and G. Minola, Turin (1945–46)
 * Casa Orengo, Turin (1949)
 * Casa Rivetti, Turin (1949)
 * Lattes Publishing House (Casa Editrice Lattes), Turin (1951)
 * Lutrario ballroom (Sala da ballo Lutrario), Turin (1959-1960)
 * Casa Mollino, Turin (1960-1968)
 * Casa Pistoi, Turin (1966–67)

Works and projects unrealized

 * House on the Hill (Casa in Collina), published in Domus, 182, February 1943
 * Bedroom for a Farmhouse in the rice field (Camera da letto per una cascina in risaia), published in Domus, 181, January 1943
 * House on the Heights (Casa sull’altura), published in Stile, 40, April 1944
 * Truss House (Casa Capriata), published in Domus, 230, 1948
 * Apartment building in Sanremo (Casa a Sanremo), published in Domus, 243, February 1950
 * Casa Rama, published in Spazio, 2, August 1950
 * Fürggen Cable Car Arrival Station (Stazione d’arrivo funivia del Fürggen), published in Prospettive, 1, December 1951
 * Gallery of Modern Art of Turin (Galleria d’Arte Moderna), published in Prospettive, 6, July–August 1953
 * Exhibition Hall for Italia ’61 (Palazzo del lavoro, Italia 61), published in Casabella Continuità, 235, January 1960 and in Architectural Forum, 112, May 1960

Photography
Beginning in 1934, the date of his first signed photograph, Carlo Mollino engages with B&W photography for over a decade, following two directions. On the one hand, he focuses mainly on female portraits, more rarely on images of interiors and skis, signing his unique prints as fine artworks, and publishing and exhibiting them in photographic shows. These portraits are formally close to the dreamlike and refined shots of Man Ray and Erwin Blumenfeld, although enriched with literary quotes and architectural settings of his design.

On the other hand, Mollino accurately photographs his own interior and architectural designs for publication in architectural magazines. This body of work is particularly interesting since photography, also thanks to the systematic use of retouching and photomontage techniques, becomes the tool for accomplishing his idea of architecture while emphasizing its surrealist component.

In December 1943 Mollino finished the typescript for his large volume Message from the Darkroom on photography history and critique. Published in 1949, the book asserts in theoretical terms the transfigurative quality of the photographic medium only veiled by its objective appearance. The book is written in a cultured and sophisticated style and gives evidence of Mollino's up-to-date and wide-ranging knowledge of photography.

From the late 1930s, he also committed to ski photography especially portraying Leo Gasperl, the stylish trainer of the Italian national alpine ski team. A number of these images are signed as fine artworks, others are published in magazines or in his volume on skiing technique, Introduction to Downhill Skiing.

After a few years pause from photography, in 1956 Mollino engaged in nude photography, staging the photos within interiors and furnishings he has designed.

For this purpose, he rented the annex of Villa Scalero on the beautiful Turin hillside while he set about choosing and purchasing a large amount of women's clothing and accessories. Using his Leica, he conceived a new genre of nude which is in dialogue with art history yet at the same time imbued with an explicit eroticism never before allowed in art photography; it also absorbs cues from the popular culture of contemporary lifestyle and fashion magazines. For these prints, Mollino makes extensive use of retouching, i.e. redrawing the bodies’ silhouettes and shadings on the prints. In 1962 he abandoned the photographic set of Villa Scalero, not without having first purchased a small villa, in a panoramic position still on the Turin hillside, which he baptised Villa Zaira. Once again, he redesigned the interior space in which he set up his studio and – while continuing to buy large amounts of 1960s female clothing and lingerie – pioneered the use of the Polaroid camera. This last body of work, though less elegant and formally perfect than his 1950s nude photographs, creates a more psychologically complex and modern erotism. The hundreds of nude photos he took between 1956 and 1973 were never exhibited until the 1980s.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Carlo Mollino


text:
Euglyphida

The euglyphids are a prominent group of filose amoebae that produce shells or tests that in most described species is reinforced by siliceous scales, plates, and sometimes spines, but this reinforcement is absent in other species. These elements are created within the cell and then assembled on its surface in a more or less regular arrangement, giving the test a textured appearance. There is a single opening for the long slender pseudopods, which capture food and pull the cell across the substrate.

Euglyphids are common in soils, marshes, and other organic-rich environments, feeding on tiny organisms such as bacteria. The test is generally 30–100 μm in length, although the cell only occupies part of this space. During reproduction a second shell is formed opposite the opening, so both daughter cells remain protected. Different genera and species are distinguished primarily by the form of the test. Euglypha and Trinema are the most common.

The euglyphids are traditionally grouped with other amoebae. However, genetic studies instead place them with various amoeboid and flagellate groups, forming an assemblage called the Cercozoa. Their closest relatives are the thaumatomonads, flagellates that form similar siliceous tests.

Photosynthetic species are found in the genera Paulinella and Placocista. The photosynthetic abilities in Paulinella comes from an event when a cyanobacterium settled permanently within the cell. In Placocista, where a few species have colonies of symbiotic Chlorella living inside them, the relationship is less intimate. The photosynthetic Paulinella are phototrophic, and the photosynthetic Placocista are mixotrophic.

Phylogeny
Phylogeny based on Chatelain et al. 2013

Taxonomy
Order Euglyphida Copeland 1956 emend. Cavalier-Smith 1997
 * Genus Tracheleuglypha Deflandre 1928
 * Genus Ampullataria van Oye 1956
 * Genus Euglyphidion Bonnet 1960
 * Genus Heteroglypha Thomas & Gauthier-Lièvre 1959
 * Genus Matsakision Bonnet 1967
 * Genus Pareuglypha Penard 1902
 * Family Paulinellidae de Saedeleer 1934 emend. Adl et al. 2012
 * Genus Micropyxidiella Tarnawski & Lara 2015
 * Genus Ovulinata Anderson, Rogerson & Hannah 1997 [Ovulina Anderson, Rogerson & Hannah 1996 non Ehrenberg 1845 ]
 * Genus Paulinella Lauterborn 1895
 * Family Cyphoderiidae de Saedeleer 1934
 * Genus Campascus Leidy 1877
 * Genus Corythionella Golemansky 1970
 * Genus Cyphoderia Schlumberger 1845
 * Genus Messemvriella Golemansky 1973
 * Genus Pseudocorythion Valkanov 1970
 * Genus Schaudinnula Awerintzew 1907
 * Suborder Euglyphina Bovee 1985 emend. Kosakyan et al. 2016
 * Family Assulinidae Lara et al. 2007
 * Genus Assulina Ehrenberg 1872
 * Genus Placocista Leidy 1879
 * Genus Valkanovia Tappan 1966 [Euglyphella Valkanov 1962 non Warthin 1934 ]
 * Family Euglyphidae Wallich 1864 emend Lara et al. 2007
 * Genus Euglypha Dujardin 1841
 * Genus Scutiglypha Foissner & Schiller 2001
 * Family Sphenoderiidae Chatelain et al. 2013
 * Genus Deharvengia Bonnet 1979
 * Genus Sphenoderia Schlumberger 1845
 * Genus Trachelocorythion Bonnet 1979
 * Family Trinematidae Hoogenraad & De Groot 1940 emend Adl et al. 2012
 * Genus Corythion Taránek 1882
 * Genus Neopileolus Ozdikmen 2009 [Pileolus Coûteaux & Chardez 1981 ]
 * Genus Playfairina Thomas 1961
 * Genus Puytoracia Bonnet, 1970 non Raabe 1972
 * Genus Trinema Dujardin 1841

title: Euglyphida


text:
List of radio stations in Maine

The following is a list of FCC-licensed radio stations in the U.S. state of Maine, which can be sorted by their call signs, frequencies, cities of license, licensees, and programming formats.

Defunct

 * WALZ
 * WBME
 * WHGS
 * WKZX
 * WLVC
 * WMNE
 * WNSW
 * WQDY
 * WSJR
 * WTVL
 * WVOM

title: List of radio stations in Maine


text:
The Sixth Day: Single Collection

The Sixth Day: Single Collection is a compilation album released by Gackt on February 25, 2004. The album collects the artist's previous single's title songs from 1999 up to 2003, some of them having been re-recorded for this release. The Sixth Day complements The Seventh Night, an unplugged album released three months later. In 2010, Gackt also released The Eleventh Day: Single Collection, which covers the material from 2004 to 2009.

Release
The album was released on February 25, 2004, by Nippon Crown. In the second counting week of March it reached number three on the Oricon chart, with sales of 106,412 copies. In the upcoming two weeks, it was at number eight and ten respectively, with sales of 32,174 and 15,227 copies. It charted for 23 weeks, Gackt's album record, and with sales of 196,458 copies, was the 78th best-selling album of the year, certified Platinum by RIAJ.

title: The Sixth Day: Single Collection


text:
Aluminate

In chemistry, an aluminate is a compound containing an oxyanion of aluminium, such as sodium aluminate. In the naming of inorganic compounds, it is a suffix that indicates a polyatomic anion with a central aluminium atom.

Aluminate oxyanions
Aluminium oxide (alumina) is amphoteric: it dissolves in both bases and acids. When dissolved in bases it forms hydroxyaluminate ions in the same way as aluminium hydroxide or aluminium salts. The hydroxyaluminate or hydrated aluminate can be precipitated and then calcined to produce anhydrous aluminates. Aluminates are often formulated as a combination of basic oxide and aluminium oxide, for example the formula of anhydrous sodium aluminate NaAlO2 would be shown as Na2O·Al2O3. A number of aluminate oxyanions are known:
 * The simplest is the approximately tetrahedral found in the compound Na5AlO4,
 * framework ions in anhydrous sodium aluminate NaAlO2 and monocalcium aluminate, CaAl2O4 made up of corner-sharing {AlO4} tetrahedra.
 * A ring anion, the cyclic anion, found in tricalcium aluminate, Ca3Al2O6, which can be considered to consist of 6 corner sharing {AlO4} tetrahedra.
 * A number of infinite chain anions in the compounds Na7Al3O8 which contains rings linked to form chains, Na7Al13O10 and Na17Al5O16 which contain discrete chain anions.

Mixed oxides containing aluminium
There are many mixed oxides containing aluminium where there are no discrete or polymeric aluminate ions. The spinels with a generic formula that contain aluminium as Al3+, such as the mineral spinel itself, MgAl2O4 are mixed oxides with cubic close packed O atoms and aluminium Al3+ in octahedral positions.

BeAl2O4, chrysoberyl, isomorphous with olivine, has hexagonal close-packed oxygen atoms with aluminium in octahedral positions and beryllium in tetrahedral positions.

Some oxides with the general formula of MAlO3 sometimes called aluminates or orthoaluminates such as YAlO3, Yttrium ortho-aluminate are mixed oxides and have the perovskite structure. Some oxides such as Y3Al5O12, usually called YAG, have the garnet structure.

Hydroxoaluminates
The  anion is known in high pH solutions of Al(OH)3.

Aluminate glasses
Alumina on its own cannot easily be made glassy with current techniques, however with the addition of a second compound many types of aluminate glasses can be formed. The glasses produced display a range of interesting and useful properties, such as high refractive index, good infrared transparency, and high melting point, as well as the ability to host laser active and fluorescent ions. Aerodynamic levitation is a key method used to study and produce many aluminate glasses. Levitation allows high purity to be maintained in the melt at temperatures in excess of 2000 K.

Some materials that are known to form glass in binary combination with aluminium oxide are: rare earth oxides, alkaline earth oxides (CaO, SrO, BaO), lead oxide, and silicon dioxide.

Also, the Al2O3 (aluminate) system has been discovered to form sapphire-like glass ceramics. Often, this ability is based upon compositions in which interplay between glass forming ability and glass stability is approximately balanced.

Applications of aluminates
Sodium aluminate, NaAlO2, is used industrially in dyeing to form a mordant and the hydrated forms are used in water purification, sizing of paper and in the manufacture of zeolites, ceramics and catalysts in the petrochemical industry. In the isomerization process of alkenes and amines Calcium aluminates are important ingredients of cements.

Li5AlO4 is used in the nuclear power industry.

Aluminate suffix used in the naming of inorganic compounds
Examples are:
 * Tetrachloroaluminate ion found in for example lithium tetrachloroaluminate.
 * Tetrahydroaluminate ion found in for example lithium aluminium hydride.
 * Hexafluoroaluminate ion found in for example sodium hexafluoroaluminate.

Aluminates made using new raw materials
Many recent research studies have focused on an effective solution for waste treatment. This has led some residues to be made into new raw materials for many industries. Such an achievement ensures a reduction in energy and natural resource usage, decreasing of the negative environmental impact and creating new fields of work.

A good example comes from the metals industry, particularly the aluminium industry. Aluminium recycling is a beneficial activity for the environment, since it recovers resources from both manufacturing and consumer waste. Slag and scrap which were previously considered as waste, are now the raw material for some highly profitable new industries. There is added-value in materials made using an aluminium residue which is currently considered as a hazardous waste. Current research is investigating the use of this waste to manufacture glass, glass-ceramic, boehmite and calcium aluminate.

title: Aluminate


text:
Elton Motello

Elton Motello were an English punk rock and new wave band.

Elton Motello is both the moniker of Alan Ward, the lead singer and songwriter, and the name of the band itself. Alan Ward was formerly a member of the glam punk band Bastard along with Damned guitarist Brian James, Dez Lover, future Raxola frontman Yves Kengen on bass, and drummer Nobby Goff.

Retaining Goff, Motello then recruited a new set of musicians, including Mike Butcher (aka "Jet Staxx" who had played on "Jet Boy, Jet Girl") and Willie Change (bass), to record debut album Victim of Time, which also featured guest appearances from former Pretty Things and Pink Fairies drummer John "Twink" Alder, Tony Boast, and Peter Goff (guitar).

Motello returned in 1980 with a second album, Pop Art, now backed by Butcher, Andrew Goldberg, J.P. Martins, and Walter Mets. Two singles followed towards the end of the year, after which the band split up.

"Jet Boy, Jet Girl"
Alan Ward had toured Belgium with Bastard. Through his connections there, he had his new moniker, Elton Motello, debut on the Belgian label Pinball with the single "Jet Boy, Jet Girl" in 1977. The song was backed by session musicians Mike Butcher (guitar), John Valcke (bass), and Bob Dartsch (drums), instead of Elton Motello's regular musicians. That exact same backing track was simultaneously used by Belgian artist Plastic Bertrand on his internationally successful hit single "Ça plane pour moi". Since then, "Jet Boy, Jet Girl" has sometimes been wrongly thought to be a cover of "Ça plane pour moi", with new lyrics over the same backing track, but the truth is that the two songs were simultaneous adaptations of the same backing track.

While Bertrand's single was an international hit, Motello's single in English made little impact, except in Australia, where it was released on the RCA label and hit #33 on the National Top Forty (and regionally in Melbourne at #11 and in Sydney, at #10). Also in Australia, "Jet Boy, Jet Girl" has appeared in a television commercial, but the commercial only included the chorus and none of the controversial lyrics.

After Pop Art
Alan Ward, after his time with Elton Motello, continued his musical career through producing music. He produced albums for various artists, including Plastic Bertrand, the musician behind "Ça plane pour moi", the sister song of "Jet Boy, Jet Girl". Alan Ward lives in Belgium where he works as a producer at Electric City Recording Studio.

title: Elton Motello


text:
Talk:Dicentra spectabilis 'Goldheart'

Is it a species or a variety? Is it originally from Asia or England? Gazpacho 03:13, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

This is a variety of Dicentra spectabilis. It is interesting to note that Hadspen House in England; which developed the variety, has been around since the 17th century. Also of note is that Hummingbirds love this flower, and therefore are a great pollination vector in addition to bees. :Siuwed 16:57, 15 July 2005 (UTC) It is a variety. The Dicentra spectablis is originally from Korea, Siberia and China but the actual variety of Goldheart was developed in England at Hadspen House by Nori and Sandra Pope by combining the work of Eric Smith, formerly of Hadspent House, with their own.

It is a cultivar, not a variety. As such it is a very insignificant item - I'll move the page to the species name (absurd to have a page about a cultivar without anything on the species it is derived from!) and expand the description to cover the species, with its cultivars as a paragraph "Cultivation and uses" at the end - MPF 23:21, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dicentra spectabilis 'Goldheart'


text: Category:North Carolina geography stubs

title: Category:North Carolina geography stubs


text: Category:Aluminates

title: Category:Aluminates


text:
Talk:Batman: Mask of the Phantasm

Continuity
Can someone explain how this film is in the Tim Burton continuity? It's not any more chronologically linked to Batman 1989 any more than Batman Begins is. And if this is, shouldn't all the other direct-to-video films be as well in this continuity? - guest.

 * Er, what? The article clearly says that this film is not in the Tim Burton continuity. --Paul A 04:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Smallville
Does anyone else think Andrea, the Angel of Vengeance from Smallville was based on Andrea Beaumont? Daibhid C 15:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Danny Chase
I've removed this from the trivia section:

'':*The name and general design of the Phantasm character eventually appeared in DC Comics canon as a disguise/alternate identity for the character Danny Chase, a member of the Teen Titans. The smaller-than-average, teenaged Chase, a telekinetic, donned a disguise to hide himself from individuals seeking to kidnap and possibly kill him. Using a hockey mask and lengths of cloth as a cloak and gloves, Chase made himself appear to be a disembodied, adult-sized entity called the Phantasm by concealing his smaller form within the cloak. By supporting himself and the costume telekinetically, the Phantasm appeared to move without legs, and the gloves floated in the approximate place of arms without any visible connection to the Phantasm's "body". Ultimately, Chase sacrificed his life to save others, but his soul and the souls of the otherdimensional world of Azarath merged to become a new Phantasm, a truly disembodied being with unspecified, quasi-mystical powers.''

Danny first appeared as the Phantasm two years before the film was released, so if there's any connection it goes the other way. In any case, I'm not sure we need the whole story, just a link to Phantasm (comics) Daibhid C 22:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't see this connection at all, but I think that a link to Batman: Year Two would be highly appropriate. In appearance and characterization, the Phantasm is very clearly modeled after the Reaper.  A crucial difference is that in the movie the criminal turned out to be Bruce Wayne's love interest, while in the original comic it was her father.  However, the movie obviously intended for the audience to suspect the father, going so far as to have both characters voiced by Stacy Keach. MatthewDaly (talk) 23:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Opening Lyrics
I don't beleive the information given on the lyrics is correct. I've found this on several sites. It's a quote from an interview with Shirley Walker, the woman behind the music for the film and I think it is accurate.

"As you know, the music team is rushing to the finish line as a film is in its final dub phase. Even the known orchestrators are not always given the credit they so justly deserve for insuring the timely execution (so to speak) of the score.  I've become tired of fighting for credits for the support team that helps pull me through the final throes of recording and mixing my scores.

The choir for Masks gave me the opportunity to rectify this terrible situation. I made a chart by number of syllables of every music persons name backwards to use in creating the language you hear. 'Oh Nahlim Mot!', the phrase the score begins with, is Tom Milano, the music editor of most of my features, whom I originally worked with doing the Flash TV series.

You get the idea. It was working so well, I realized that I would need to include some of the film producers and executives at Warner Bros. After all, they were paying for my little inside joke. People do like to be included in these sorts of things. I had to lie to the Warner Bros. legal department person who called to ask me what the language was and what was being said. They certainly didn't want to be a party to me saying "screw Warner Bros." in Danish. I told them it was an obscure nonsensical choral language that existed only in out of print orchestration books.

I think I actually spent more time on my plot than I did on the score during the week I was preparing the choral cues. It was quite fun to see the looks on peoples faces, as they realized what they were hearing. Only two people had deciphered the puzzle by the time we recorded the choir. It was very difficult for the singers to sing the strange words. I'm sure they would have had more fun doing it, had I been able to include them in the joke too.

While I was mixing the score, I had Bobby Fernandez (Zed-nahn-fur E-Bob) record the choir accappella onto a seperate DAT, ostensibly for my sample reel. The look on Tom's face as he began to suspect what I had done was well worth the whole deception. He finally turned to me and said "You didn't do what I think you've done, did you?".

The rest is history. Everyone on the music team has a tape of the singing of their names (we transfered to 1/4" tape and played it backwards; the old "back-masking" trick)."

Citations for use
Wildroot 23:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * http://bventertainment.go.com/tv/buenavista/ebertandroeper/index2.html?sec=1&subsec=1374
 * http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/122085/Batman-Mask-of-the-Phantasm/overview
 * http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117902185.html?categoryid=31&cs=1&p=0
 * http://deseretnews.com/movies/view/1,1257,144,00.html
 * http://www.batman-on-film.com/review_jett_phantasm.html
 * http://cdn.libsyn.com/wordballoon/WBmartypasko.mp3
 * http://www.animationartist.com/2000/Interviews/Screenwriters/Michael_Reaves/MReaves.html
 * http://www.awn.com/mag/issue2.1/articles/kubin2.1.html
 * http://wordballoon.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=252744
 * http://www.supermanhomepage.com/tv/tv.php?topic=interviews/dana-delany
 * http://purpleplanetmedia.com/eye/inte/pdini.php
 * http://www.mania.com/52977.html
 * http://forums.toonzone.net/archive/index.php/t-128186.html
 * http://news.toonzone.net/2000/jun/02/timm_interview.php
 * http://www.soundtrack.net/features/article/?id=55
 * http://www.fanboyplanet.com/interviews/mc-brucetimm.php

GA on hold
This article is excellent with the exception of some prose issues. I'm putting the nomination on hold until these are fixed.
 * 1) "Both the Joker and Andrea eventually disappear" How do they disappear? What happens to the Joker?
 * 2) "The storyline becomes complicated when Valestra hires him to kill Batman, enforcing upon a series of events, including the death of Valestra done by The Joker." I just can't figure out what this means.
 * 3) "As the storyline continues, Bruce and Andrea are set for marriage, but Bruce is given a farewell note from Andrea ultimately ending the event. This eventually leads into Bruce's decision to become Batman. Richard Corliss of Time further addressed the situational irony, but referred to the scene whereas Andrea finds her father Carl dead by the hands of an assassin (later to become the Joker)." I also don't understand this. What irony, exactly?
 * 4) "The filmmakers felt it was a failed marketing campaign brought by Warner Brothers as to why the film was a disappointment." ???
 * 5) "Analysts found themes of the storyline with tragedy, flashbacks and consequences of decisions." This doesn't really tell us anything unique about the story.
 * I see what you mean. However, the lead section of a wikipedia article is suppose to "introduce" to the reader what he/she is about the read. That's why the themes are listed, because there's a section on the Themes of the storyline.Wildroot (talk) 21:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That was the problem, though. This sentence doesn't introduce any themes, it just says that the movie has them, and that it has tragedy and flashbacks. Just about every movie has these things. I think it needs to be just a little more specific. Wrad (talk) 04:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Again, pretty small stuff. I'll keep an eye on this as it improves. Wrad (talk) 23:14, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I just did another quick copy edit. It should be good now. Great work! Wrad (talk) 21:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Appearance in Justice League Unlimited
In the episode Epilogue, an aged Andrea Beaumont AKA The Phantasm was assigned to murder Terry McGinnis' parents by Amanda Waller as a part of Project: Batman Beyond. This would thereby push McGinnis pyschologically to become The Batman. Beaumont refused, possibly remembering the murder of her father and Bruce's parents. McGinnis' father was later murdered and that was the catalyst needed to turn him into The Batman. Dxf289 (talk) 21:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

 * This has rarely anything to do with Mask of the Phantasm. That information would be better off in the Andrew Beaumont page.—Wildroot (talk) 15:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion pertaining to non-free image(s) used in article
A cleanup page has been created for WP:FILMS' spotlight articles. One element that is being checked in ensuring the quality of the articles is the non-free images. Currently, one or more non-free images being used in this article are under discussion to determine if they should be removed from the article for not complying with non-free and fair use requirements. Please comment at the corresponding section within the image cleanup listing. Before contributing the discussion, please first read WP:FILMNFI concerning non-free images. Ideally the discussions pertaining to the spotlight articles will be concluded by the end of June, so please comment soon to ensure there is clear consensus. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 05:14, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Awards section
I'm curious as to why what an internet personality like the Nostalgia Critic thinks warrants inclusion. Technically speaking, he's not even really giving an award and it's not a recognized accolade like, say, the Oscars or BAFTAs. So why have it? BalanceFish (talk) 11:26, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You make a good point, so I went ahead and removed it.-5- (talk) 09:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Alternate name
Who calls it Batman: The Animated Movie. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 00:47, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Batman: Mask of the Phantasm


text:
Voiceless palatal lateral fricative

The voiceless palatal lateral fricative is a type of consonantal sound, used in a few spoken languages.

This sound is somewhat rare; Dahalo has both a palatal lateral fricative and an affricate; Hadza has a series of palatal lateral affricates. In Bura, it is the realization of palatalized and contrasts with.

The extensions to the IPA transcribes this sound with the letter ⟨𝼆⟩ (⟨ʎ⟩ with a belt, analogous to ⟨ɬ⟩ for the voiceless alveolar lateral fricative), which was added to Unicode in 2021.

If distinction is necessary, the voiceless alveolo-palatal lateral fricative may be transcribed as ⟨ɬ̠ʲ⟩ (retracted and palatalized ⟨ɬ⟩) or as advanced ⟨𝼆̟⟩; these are essentially equivalent, since the contact includes both the blade and body (but not the tip) of the tongue. The equivalent X-SAMPA symbols are  or   and , respectively. A non-IPA letter ⟨ȴ̊˔⟩ (devoiced and raised ⟨ȴ⟩, which is an ordinary "l", plus the curl found in the symbols for alveolo-palatal sibilant fricatives ) can be used.

Some scholars also posit a voiceless palatal lateral approximant distinct from the fricative. The approximant may be represented in the IPA as ⟨ʎ̥⟩.

Features
Features of the voiceless palatal lateral fricative:

title: Voiceless palatal lateral fricative


text:
The Chameleons

The Chameleons are an English rock band formed in Middleton, Greater Manchester, in 1981. The band's classic line-up consisted of bassist and vocalist Mark Burgess, guitarists Reg Smithies and Dave Fielding, and drummer John Lever.

The band released their debut studio album, Script of the Bridge, in 1983. They followed it with What Does Anything Mean? Basically and Strange Times in 1985 and 1986, respectively, before abruptly breaking-up in 1987 due to the sudden death of the band's manager. After the break-up, Burgess and Lever formed the Sun and the Moon, while Fielding and Smithies formed the Reegs. Burgess also had a short solo career with backing band the Sons of God.

The Chameleons reformed in 2000, releasing their fourth studio album Why Call It Anything (2001) as well as the acoustic albums Strip (2000) and This Never Ending Now (2002). Renewed tensions caused the group to break-up again in 2003. Burgess and Lever continued to play Chameleons songs live with their new project ChameleonsVox, although Lever later left that group and died in 2017. Burgess and Smithies reformed the Chameleons in 2021 with two members of Burgess' ChameleonsVox group.

Known for their atmospheric, guitar-based sound, the Chameleons are regarded as one of the most underrated Manchester bands of the 1980s. They did not attain the commercial success of other groups from the Manchester scene but developed a cult following.

Early career (1981–1982)
The Chameleons were formed in Middleton, Greater Manchester, England in 1981 by Mark Burgess, Reg Smithies and Dave Fielding. Burgess previously played with the Cliches, while Smithies and Fielding had performed with Years. They started as a trio—Burgess as lead vocalist and bassist, Smithies and Fielding both on guitar—without a drummer. They later recruited fellow Middletonian Brian Schofield, who was soon replaced by Dukinfield-based John Lever, previously of the Politicians. Former Magazine drummer Martin Jackson briefly replaced Lever during 1982–83 while the latter was on sabbatical. The band were then inspired by U2's early recordings : "U2's first record was a big album for us. Edge's guitar opened it up in terms of how you could build an ambient atmosphere".

After performing several radio sessions for BBC Radio 1 DJ John Peel, - the first session was recorded in June 1981, the band signed a recording contract with Epic Records, which was then a subsidiary of CBS Records International. Their debut single "In Shreds" released in March 1982, was produced by Steve Lillywhite. The single's cover – a harrowing painting by Smithies, who created the artwork for all of their releases – mirrored the band's tense, atmospheric sound. During this time, the Chameleons' independent style clashed with their label's visions for the band. Wary of the loss of credibility Altered Images had suffered due to buckling to CBS' demands on packaging, the Chameleons were protective of their image and consequently were dropped by the label soon after the release of "In Shreds".

Script of the Bridge and What Does Anything Mean? Basically (1983–1985)
The Chameleons subsequently signed to UK label Statik Records, a subsidiary of Virgin Records, on which they released their debut studio album, Script of the Bridge, in 1983. Script of the Bridge, featuring the singles "Up the Down Escalator", "As High as You Can Go" and "A Person Isn't Safe Anywhere These Days", showcased Burgess's strong vocals and the band's guitar-based sound, with careful use of synthesisers. Upon its release, the UK press said that the artwork looked like a "seventies Genesis style drawing rather unhappily adorning the sleeve". A NME concert review described their music as "guitars slipping and sliding on slopes of echo, snapping their wires, fussing and fretting over stampeding drums, getting angry and staccato and falling to harmonic whispers". Concerning the guitar playing, it was said that there was an influence of U2 and Echo & the Bunnymen.

Statik's status as a subsidiary of Virgin prevented the band from qualifying for the independent charts, which resulted in reduced coverage by the British music press. MCA Records released the album in the United States in an abridged form, minus four songs, which angered the band. However, the US release and a 1984 American tour did earn them significant college radio airplay and a loyal fanbase.

Their second studio album, What Does Anything Mean? Basically, was released in 1985 by Statik, which also reissued "In Shreds" and its B-side "Less Than Human" as the 12" Nostalgia EP, adding the previously unreleased track "Nostalgia". Basically established the band as a promising, guitar-based group.

Strange Times and break-up (1985–1987)
Regular touring after the release of Basically (1985), along with efforts by the band's manager, Tony Fletcher, persuaded David Geffen to sign the band to Geffen Records, which released their third studio album, Strange Times, in 1986. A dark, complex work, it contained the singles "Tears" and "Swamp Thing", but proved to be their final record of the period. A rift existed within the band, particularly between Burgess and Fielding, and Fletcher's sudden death in 1987 due to cardiac arrest led to the group disbanding.

Post-break-up (1988–1999)
After the break-up, numerous spin-off bands emerged, none of which achieved much success. Burgess and Lever formed the Sun and the Moon, recruiting Andy Whitaker and Andy Clegg to replace Smithies and Fielding. They released an eponymous studio album on Geffen in 1988, but separated the next year. Burgess then embarked on a solo career, while the remaining members briefly continued on as Weaveworld. Smithies and Fielding formed the Reegs with the help of vocalist Gary Lavery and a drum machine, and released two studio albums, Return of the Sea Monkeys (1991) and Rock the Magic Rock (1992), on the independent label Imaginary Records.

Burgess released his debut solo studio album, Zima Junction, in 1993, and toured America the following year with his backing band the Sons of God. He released another studio album, Spring Blooms Tra-La (1994), as well as a live album, Manchester 93 (1994), before partnering with Yves Altana in 1995, releasing Paradyning the same year. Afterwards, he founded Invincible with Altana and drummer Geoff Walker. They self-released their debut studio album, Venus, in 1999, with most sales being digital. He also worked with Bird, the Messengers and Black Swan Lane. Lever later joined Bushart, who released the album Yesterday Is History (2008).

In 1990, the Chameleons posthumously released an EP, Tony Fletcher Walked on Water.... La La La La La-La La-La-La, with the title paying tribute to their former manager. They also issued numerous live albums and compilations.

Reformations (2000–present)
The Chameleons reconvened in January 2000 to prepare for a series of concerts in The Witchwood, Ashton-under-Lyne, one of the band's favourite venues, in May. May 2000 also saw the release of the album Strip, which featured old material in an acoustic format. The concerts were a success, and they expanded the reunion tour to include European dates in the summer and two California dates that fall. They released a new studio album, Why Call It Anything, in 2001, followed by another unplugged album, This Never Ending Now, in 2002 and a full American tour. Renewed tensions led to the band dissolving once again in early 2003.

In 2009, Burgess and Lever reformed to play Chameleons back catalogue material under the name ChameleonsVox. They issued an EP, M+D=1(8), in November 2013. In addition to Burgess and Lever, ChameleonsVox line-ups have included guitarists Roger Lavallee, Justin Lomery, Andrew Abernathy, Neil Dwerryhouse and Chris Oliver; bassists Frank Deserto and Jessica Espeleta; and drummers Glenn Maryansky, Yves Altana and Stephen Rice. Lever later went on to leave the band.

In 2014, Lever and Fielding reunited to record an album, Endless Sea, as Red-Sided Garter Snakes. The album, featuring contributions from vocalist James Mudriczki of Puressence and Clegg, was released in July 2015.

Lever died on 13 March 2017, following a short illness, at the age of 55. The Chameleons reformed under the official name in May 2021 when Burgess and Smithies recorded a live album, Edge Sessions (Live from the Edge), with guitarist Chris Oliver and drummer Stephen Rice, who had been members of Burgess' ChameleonsVox group. The live album was released on April 25, 2022 on Metropolis Records.

With Oliver and Rice, the Chameleons announced their first tour in 20 years, playing the United States in fall 2022 with the Mission and Theatre of Hate. The tour was ultimately postponed to 2023. Instead, the band opened for She Wants Revenge in fall 2022.

In 2024, the band released their first new studio material since the release of Why Call It Anything? 21 years earlier: On May 24th, a new studio album Arctic Moon, was announced for release later in the year. The same day, the studio EP Where Are You? was released.

Musical style
During the Chameleons' early career, the British music press often used terms such as "sonic architects" and "sonic cathedrals" when describing the band, due to their atmospheric sound. Smithies and Fielding provided shimmering guitar riffs, while Lever and Burgess on drums and bass, respectively, gave the band a solid, rhythmic foundation.

The Chameleons emerged as Thatcherism was beginning to have its effect on England's former industrial towns, and their music was imbued with a sense of anxiety and a longing for the security of innocence. Burgess's impassioned vocal delivery complemented his lyrics, which touched on the alienation created in many British communities by the decline of manufacturing and industry, and the consequent disruption of social order. Despite the bleak landscapes they were surrounded by, the band were not weighed down by their environment, but attempted to triumph over it. Burgess said in 2013 that, though growing up in a post-industrial, northern town must have some influence on one's music, he felt the Chameleons would have sounded similar regardless of where they originated from.

Legacy
The Chameleons have inspired the likes of Scooter (band), Oasis, the Verve, Editors, White Lies, Alcest, the Slow Readers Club, the Flaming Lips and Interpol. Oasis's songwriter Noel Gallagher has expressed his liking for the album Strange Times (1986) saying, "It must have influenced my early years as a song writer because I can hear me in it everywhere!". Guitarist Nick McCabe of the Verve named Script of the Bridge (1983) as one of his ten favorite albums. The Flaming Lips included "Up the Down Escalator" in the track listing of a CD compilation they did for Late Night Tales. The band have also been cited by the Charlatans's lead vocalist Tim Burgess. Moby has been quoted expressing admiration for their work. Interpol's frontman Paul Banks has said that their bassist Carlos [Dengler] was "a fan" of the band. Sweet Trip vocalist Valerie Cooper listed Script of the Bridge as a musical influence. The Smashing Pumpkins frontman Billy Corgan named the Chameleons as one of the formative British bands he listened to in the 1980s. Neige, the founder of French black metal band Alcest, said his playing was influenced by the Chameleons' dual guitar leads and often names them as one of history's most underrated bands.

Members
Main line-up
 * Mark Burgess – bass, vocals (1981–1987, 2000–2003, 2021–present)
 * Reg Smithies – guitars (1981–1987, 2000–2003, 2021–present)
 * Todd Demma – drums (2021–present)
 * Stephen Rice – drums/guitars (2021-present)
 * Danny Ashberry - keyboards (2021-present)

Other former members

The core quartet were augmented by keyboardists Alistair Lewthwaite and Andy Clegg for live shows in the 1980s, and by percussionist-vocalist Kwasi Asante during their reunion period.
 * Dave Fielding – guitars (1981–1987, 2000–2003)
 * John Lever – drums (1981, 1983–1987, 2000–2003; died 2017
 * Neil Dwerryhouse – guitars (2011–2022)
 * Chris Oliver – guitars(2009–2019)
 * Brian Schofield – drums (1981)
 * Martin Jackson – drums (1982)
 * Kwasi Asante – percussion (2001–2003)
 * Ray Bowles - bass (2009-2014)

Discography
Studio albums
 * Script of the Bridge (1983)
 * What Does Anything Mean? Basically (1985)
 * Strange Times (1986)
 * The Fan and the Bellows: 1981-83 Early Recordings (1986)
 * Why Call It Anything (2001)
 * Arctic Moon (2024)

title: The Chameleons


text:
Theodor Fischer

Theodor Fischer (28 May 1862 – 25 December 1938) was a German architect and teacher.

Career
Fischer planned public housing projects for the city of Munich beginning in 1893. He was the joint founder and first chairman of the Deutscher Werkbund (German work federation, 1907), as well as member of the German version of the Garden city movement. In 1909, Fischer accepted a position as professor for architecture at the Technical University of Munich.

Notable pupils
Famous pupils of Fischer include Paul Bonatz, Hugo Häring, Ernst May, Erich Mendelsohn, JJP Oud, Bruno Taut, German Bestelmeyer and Paul Schmitthenner.

Style
Originally an imitator of historical styles, he changed direction, seeking a style which was closer to German tradition; his rediscovery of the expressive qualities of stone influenced many of his pupils, and his search for a more genuinely volkisch style explains his nationalist utterances in the early part of the Third Reich. Fischer described his own style as something between historicism and art nouveau. He tried to always work in the local context, and the socio-cultural character of the region, with an eye toward the social effect of his plans.

title: Theodor Fischer


text:
File:Ace of Spades (song).jpg

Cover of Motorhead's single "Ace of Spades". Alf 03:16, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

title: File:Ace of Spades (song).jpg


text:
Talk:Tuvia Grossman

Who took the picture?
The Associated Press is not the photographer, so who is? I think that this is very important especially with the growing scandal of staged and faked photos in Lebanon and the long history of staging photos in Gaza during the Israeli-Arab conflict. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.184.152 (talk • contribs)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 16:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Grossmanattack.jpg
Image:Grossmanattack.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Did anyone find out who took the photo?
I agree with the original poster, the photographer had to be aware of what was going on, wrote the erroneous caption and had some hand in the misrepresentation! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.217.205.143 (talk) 13:30, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

The focus should be the Border Police officer, and we don't even have his name
Gideon Tzefadi is the Israeli-Hebrew translation of his name. The Druze have Arabic names. It must be Jidun as-Safadi. Not the same, as Ibrahim isn't quite the same as Abraham/Abram/Avrum, now is it? Shameful.

In my view (or is it: in any thinking person's?), the story is supposed to be about a) anti-Israeli bias reflected in a wrong caption, and b) the non-Jew saving a Jew. Am I wrong? And then making the Wiki article about Tuvia Grossman, the man saved by the officer, is simply wrong. (That's me pretending not to understand where it comes from. This is all run by some hasbara pressure group, the actual human story is just a pretext and gets lost in the process. Grossman is Jewish, so he gets 90% of the coverage.) Not getting the officer's name right is truly shameful. Hebrew has the excuse of not using vowels, but Hebrew-speaking Israelis generally tend to casually change non-Hebrew names to more familiar, Hebrew versions; integrated non-Jewish Israelis are also often using "Hebraised" vesion of their given name in Hebrew-speaking environments (but it doesn't normally apply to surnames). However, none of that is an excuse for somebody researching the story for publication, not in Hebrew and certainly not in English. It's a lack of respect for the non-Jewish officer.

The officer hardly gets an afterthought-like mini-paragraph at the very end. Altogether shameful. Arminden (talk) 13:18, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

 * We should get his name correct if feasible, but I'm not sure why the article should be about him -- he wasn't misidentified... AnonMoos (talk) 22:07, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The source has his name as Gidon Tzefadi (not Gideon), so that is what we should have in the article because we can only report what the source says. If an additional source can be found with a Druze spelling, it would be great to add that as well. – Elizabeth (Eewilson) (tag or ping me) (talk) 14:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tuvia Grossman


text:
User:RickWilson

Welcome to my Wikipedia blog. I'm a 9/11 activist/researcher and welcome well-researched contributions.

title: User:RickWilson


text:
User talk:Amiejonson

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, please be sure to sign your name on Talk and vote pages using four tildes (~~~~) to produce your name and the current date, or three tildes (~~~) for just your name. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! — mendel ☎ 03:16, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
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Don Henley images
I'm not sure what you meant to do with Don Henley and associated image. I've reverted the back to an album cover and reverted the page back to including it, since a picture is better than no picture. Album covers on Wikipedia are considered fair use, and that image is used in other articles, so it shold probably be left as is.

Your is a good picture, but it's not clear that Wikipedia has rights to use it. From where did you obtain it? — mendel ☎ 03:16, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Amiejonson