text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Faschingschwank aus Wien (op. 26) . . . . 1839

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Sjakkalle (Check!)  11:58, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Faschingschwank aus Wien (op. 26) . . . . 1839
See discussion page (almost a speedy delete, I guess). --Missmarple 10:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Duplicate article with no additional information. Martg76 21:25, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete duplicate content. JamesBurns 08:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete --Forig 12:14, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Category:Magazines published in New Zealand

N
 * New Zealand Geographic magazine

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
University of Montana Herbarium

The  University of Montana Herbarium is a herbarium located at the University of Montana in Missoula, Montana. It is open by appointment only.

The herbarium contains over 129,000 plant specimens, and is the world's largest and finest collection of Northern Rocky Mountains flora. Its primary mission is to collect and preserve specimens from the Western Cordillera and Great Plains but collections span a wider taxonomic and geographic range.

About 60% of the 120,000 vascular plant specimens are from Montana itself, a state with diverse plant communities, including Great Plains prairies, Great Basin sagebrush steppes, boreal forests, Northern Rockies alpine communities, and the eastern limit of the moist conifer forests of the Pacific Northwest. The non-Montana collections include many duplicate specimens from Wyoming, Idaho, Utah and Nevada.

The herbarium has a rich history, and its vascular plant collection represents over 100 years of botanical research in Montana, with hundreds of specimens from important early collectors, including C. Bessey, F. D. Kelsey, Marcus Jones and W. N. Suksdorf. That said, however, its greatest strength lies in more recent collections. Over 20,000 (28%) of the Montana vascular plant specimens were collected in the past 30 years by Prof. Klaus Lackschewitz or Peter Lesica. These newer specimens have location data accurate to the nearest square mile, making them a particularly useful resource for ecological and biogeographical studies.

title: University of Montana Herbarium


text:
Talk:Kamancheh

Link
What I assume is the name of the kamancheh in Persian is linked to an article in the English Wikipedia; could somebody change it to point to the article in the Persian Wikipedia? --Joel7687 10:27, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Taken care of. --jonsafari 14:32, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Farsi meaning
So, what is the meaning of the word in Farsi - violinette or little bow?

Thanks in advance for clarification. --Amir E. Aharoni 17:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Merging
I agree that this article has to be merged with Kamancheh. Same instrument, different spellings. Also, Kemenche (which sadly enough can also be spelled in several ways, including Kemence, not to be confused with Hungarian town) is an instrument with the same name, and probably same origin. Perhaps merging all three of these instruments into one article wouldn't be such a bad idea. Avetik 14:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't have a problem merging with Kamancha, but it seems that Kemenche is sufficiently different to merit separate articles. –jonsafari 21:51, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What would be your suggestion about describing name of this instrument in more or less consistent manner? To my knowledge there is not a one standard or even preferred way to spell the name of this instrument in English, do you agree? What would you recommend? Avetik 21:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijan
I have removed the Azerbaijan as being a country where Kamancheh has originated from. Since Kamancheh is a very old instrument and is a Persian instrument originally from Persia, even though there are no dated sources as when the instrument was made and used, Azerbaijan cannot be a country of origin of the instrument. Please provide a verifiable source as how is this instrument related to the Azerbaijan and when was this instrument used by Azeri people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Flavallee (talk • contribs) 00:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

quiz of the century
concerning the edit I would like to ask the editors of this page: is the lead paragraph (or article as whole) a place for mentioning "A kamancheh is depicted on the bank note X of country Y"?--Xashaiar (talk) 16:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

 * In my opinion, the fact that the Azerbaijani government considers this musical instrument of enough symbolic significance to depict it in its currency is interesting to our readership, and worthy of mention in a single, short sentence.

 * A government's decision to showcase the instrument as a symbol of a culture (for that is what the banknote depiction connotes) is quite interesting. – To be honest, I cannot understand why this fact wouldn't belong in the article.

 * Notice however that I did not add the sentence to "the lead paragraph", but as the very last sentence of the article dealing with the kamancheh itself (diff.). - Best, Ev (talk) 18:24, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I've given a third opinion over at Talk:Tar (lute). --Eivind (t) 18:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Similar instruments
Some expert help is needed here and in kemençe to prevent unnecessary edit war among laymen. Regards. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 22:20, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The slight differences between kamancheh and the Turkish version, "kabak kemane". If we are not going to mention kabak kemane in this article, then we should make another one for it. Regards. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 21:15, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:52, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Kamancheh player (by Ibrahim Jabbar-Beik).jpg
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title: Talk:Kamancheh


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TuneTribe

TuneTribe was a digital music download store that offers content from major record labels, independents and unsigned artists. It is unknown when the site became defunct.

Availability
The total number of tracks available on TuneTribe exceeded 3 million, all of which were in MP3 format. Also, a boutique physical store existed selling limited edition CDs, books and high-end music related products, complementing their digital offering.

Music and artist recommendations on products and artist pages were provided by Last.FM, with TuneTribe recommending Record Union (https://www.recordunion.com) to unsigned acts that wish to sell their music on the site.

Digital Platforms
TuneTribe's sister company, TuneTribe Digital, was a digital music service provider that builds and hosts digital platforms for a variety of brands across all the industries, utilizing the most important component - music. The company offered services that included digital downloads, streaming, competitions, pre-release promotions and vouchers.

Founding and Ownership
Launched in 2005, TuneTribe was founded by Tom Findlay of Groove Armada and John Strickland of Interesource. It was owned by William Haighton, an entrepreneur and director of BGS Holdings Ltd and GMW Entertainment Ltd in the UK. From 1995 to 2002 Haighton was a director of both SENA and NVPI, the Dutch equivalents respectively of the UK recording industry bodies, the PRS (the Performing Rights Society) and the BPI (the British Phonographic Industry).

title: TuneTribe


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/AMC KOSHY

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Sjakkalle (Check!)  08:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

AMC KOSHY
Appears to be vanity, I've pulled it of CAT:CSD and put it here, just to be sure. - Mgm|(talk) 10:32, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete self promotion. JamesBurns 10:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Unknown person. I did a google search and came up with nothing on any such person. Manik Raina 11:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete unverified/vanity. --Etacar11 00:59, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
User talk:70.68.25.109

November 2020
Hello, I'm Flyer22 Frozen. I wanted to let you know that I reverted one of your recent contributions—specifically this edit to American Indian Wars—because it did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Help desk. Thanks. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:35, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
 * If this is a shared IP address, and you did not make the edits referred to above, consider creating an account for yourself or logging in with an existing account so that you can avoid further irrelevant notices.

title: User talk:70.68.25.109


text:
Talk:Foveonx3.org

Any discussions about the site should be directed to the forums on Foveonx3.org website.

Thank you.

title: Talk:Foveonx3.org


text:
The Albany Academy

The Albany Academy is an independent college preparatory day school for boys in Albany, New York. It enrolls students from Preschool (age 3) to Grade 12. It was established in 1813 by a charter signed by Mayor Philip Schuyler Van Rensselaer and the city council of Albany. In July 2007, the once separate Albany Academy and Albany Academy for Girls merged into The Albany Academies. Both schools retain much of their pre-merger tradition and character, and each continues to give diplomas under its own name.

History
The Albany Academy is the oldest day school for boys in New York state's Capital Region. The Academy was chartered in March 1813 to educate the sons of Albany's political elite and rapidly growing merchant class. In the Census three years prior, Albany was the tenth-largest city in the United States, and would remain so through the 1850s due to the prominence of the Erie Canal.

Classes began within months after the charter was granted, offering a college preparatory track (including intensive study of Ancient Greek, and Latin) and an arithmetic-based track to prepare young men for Albany's role as a center of commerce. Two years later, in 1815, a purpose-built building was completed in present-day Academy Park, adjacent to the New York State Capitol. The Federal-style building, now known as the Old Academy and headquarters of the City School District of Albany, was designed by renowned Albany architect Philip Hooker. The building is listed in the National Register of Historic Places.

In 1870, in response to a lack of military preparation institutions in the north during the American Civil War, the Albany Academy adopted the Battalion Leadership Program, instructing the "cadets" in military procedure and the art of leadership. In 2005, the school ended compulsory involvement in the program in favor of a House-based leadership program commonly found in English preparatory schools.

In 1931, the school moved from its original downtown building in present-day Academy Park to its current location on the corner of Hackett Boulevard and Academy Road, in the University Heights section of Albany. Designed by Marcus T. Reynolds in the neo-Georgian style, the building incorporates many elements of the Old Academy building, namely the main entryway and cupola. The school stands approximately two miles from the city center. The red-brick Academy building's marble cornerstone was laid by the then-governor of New York and future president Franklin D. Roosevelt.

In 2005, The Albany Academy ended its longstanding Army JROTC program.

In July 2007, the board of trustees announced that The Albany Academy and Albany Academy for Girls would merge into The Albany Academies.

Accreditation and memberships
The Albany Academies are accredited by the New York State Association of Independent Schools and recognized by the Regents of the State of New York.

Government, law, business, and public policy

 * William Barnes Jr., chairman of the New York Republican State Committee and member of the Republican National Committee
 * T. Garry Buckley, 72nd Lieutenant Governor of Vermont.
 * John W. Causey, United States Representative from Delaware
 * Norton Chase, New York State Assemblyman and New York State Senator
 * E. Harold Cluett, U.S. Representative from New York
 * Andrew J. Colvin, district attorney of Albany County and New York State Senator
 * Edwin Corning, businessman, Lieutenant Governor of New York
 * Edwin Corning Jr., member of the New York State Assembly
 * Erastus Corning 2nd, Mayor of Albany from 1942 to 1983
 * Parker Corning, U.S. Representative from New York
 * Frederick A. Conkling, U.S. Representative from New York
 * Learned Hand, justice of the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, regarded as the most influential American jurist never to sit on the Supreme Court of the United States
 * Francis Hendricks, Mayor of Syracuse and president of the State Bank of Syracuse.
 * Abraham Lansing, lawyer, New York State Treasurer, and New York State Senator
 * James Campbell Matthews, attorney and judge, New York's first African-American law school graduate
 * Roger McNamee, venture capital and private equity investor, founder of Elevation Partners and Silver Lake Partners
 * Peter P. Murphy, physician and politician
 * Stephen P. Nash, lawyer, president of the New York City Bar Association
 * Frederic P. Olcott, banker, stock broker, and New York State Comptroller
 * Rufus W. Peckham cph.3b30513.jpg [[Rufus Wheeler Peckham]], Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States on the Supreme Court of the United States (1895–1909)
 * Wheeler Hazard Peckham, lawyer, U.S. Supreme Court nominee
 * John V. L. Pruyn, U.S. Representative from New York
 * William Gorham Rice, New York state government official, U.S. Civil Service Commissioner
 * Henry M. Sage, New York State Assemblyman and New York State Senator
 * Charles Emory Smith, U.S. Minister to Russia (1890–1892), U.S. Postmaster General (1898–1902)
 * Phillip Steck, Democratic member of the New York State Assembly
 * Peter G. Ten Eyck, U.S. Representative from New York
 * John Boyd Thacher II, Mayor of Albany from 1926 to 1941
 * Ralph W. Thomas, New York State Senator
 * Charles Tracey, U.S. Representative from New York
 * Chauncey Vibbard, organizer of the New York Central Railroad and U.S. Representative from New York
 * Henry Waldron, U.S. Representative from Michigan
 * Charles W. van Rensselaer first officer and paymaster aboard the SS Central America when it was lost during a hurricane in September 1857

Medicine and academia

 * John Seiler Brubacher, author, educational philosopher, Yale University professor
 * Andrew Sloan Draper, jurist, author, and president of the University of Illinois
 * William Durden, president of Dickinson College
 * Julian Gibbs, president of Amherst College
 * Henry Hun, physician and professor of nervous diseases at the Albany Medical College
 * Jesse Montgomery Mosher, physician credited with establishing the first psychiatric ward within the organization of a general hospital
 * Stewart Myers, Robert C. Merton Professor of Financial Economics at the MIT Sloan School of Management, coined the term real option
 * Douglas M. North, president of Alaska Pacific University and Prescott College, and head of school of The Albany Academies
 * Martin Seligman, psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania known for his work on learned helplessness and positive psychology
 * Horace Silliman, businessman, philanthropist, namesake of Silliman University
 * Howard Townsend, physician and medical professor
 * William Bell Wait, teacher in the New York Institute for the Education of the Blind who invented New York Point, a writing for the blind before Braille

Literature and journalism

 * Luke Rhinehart (George Powers Cockcroft), author of The Dice Man
 * Gordon Ackerman, journalist, writer, and photographer
 * Stephen Vincent Benét, poet laureate, two-time winner of the Pulitzer Prize (1929, 1944)
 * William Rose Benét, poet laureate, winner of the Pulitzer Prize (1942)
 * Christopher Cuomo, Emmy Award-winning television journalist for CNN
 * Herman Melville, author of Moby-Dick
 * Andy Rooney, author, journalist, and commentator for 60 Minutes
 * Erik Wemple, journalist for The Washington Post
 * Isidor Lewi, on editorial board of New York Tribune

Science and technology

 * John Bogart, civil engineer and New York State Engineer and Surveyor
 * Verplanck Colvin, lawyer, author, illustrator, and topographical engineer involved in the creation of the Adirondack Park
 * Benjamin Boss, astronomer and editor of the Astronomical Journal
 * Joseph Henry, natural philosopher, telegraphy pioneer, first Curator of the Smithsonian Institution
 * Henry Ramsay, civil engineer and New York State Engineer and Surveyor

Arts, sports, and entertainment

 * Raymond Castellani, actor, Los Angeles philanthropist
 * James Carpinello, American film, television, and Broadway actor
 * Marc Cavosie, professional ice hockey player
 * Craig Darby, retired NHL ice hockey player
 * Joseph R. Grismer, Albany-born actor, playwright and theatrical producer
 * Stephen Hannock, landscape painter
 * Craig Hatkoff, co-founder of the Tribeca Film Festival and Tribeca Film Institute
 * Ashton Holmes, film and television actor best known for the role of Jack Stall in A History of Violence
 * David Holloway, American football linebacker formerly of the Arizona Cardinals
 * Andre Jackson Jr., professional basketball player for the Milwaukee Bucks
 * Michael Patrick Jann, director of the film Drop Dead Gorgeous and actor on MTV's The State
 * Kevin Leveille, professional lacrosse player for the Chicago Machine and the Chicago Shamrox
 * Mike Leveille, lacrosse player, 2008 Tewaaraton Trophy winner, member of the Chicago Machine
 * Dion Lewis, professional football player for the New York Giants
 * Marcus T. Reynolds, architect and author
 * Merrick Thomson, professional lacrosse player for the Toronto Nationals and the Philadelphia Wings
 * Steve Wulf, executive editor at ESPN The Magazine
 * John Wyman, magician and ventriloquist

Military

 * Jacob Downing, Union Army officer during the American Civil War, early developer of the city of Denver.
 * Theodore Roosevelt Jr., U.S. Army brigadier general and Medal of Honor recipient
 * Jeff Sharlet, Vietnam Veteran, leader of the GI resistance movement during the Vietnam War
 * Charles Dwight Sigsbee, admiral in the U.S. Navy, captain of the USS Maine (ACR-1) when it exploded, igniting the Spanish–American War
 * Frederick Townsend, Union officer in the American Civil War, Adjutant General of the State of New York
 * Robert Townsend, Civil War-era U.S. Navy captain commanding the ironclad USS Essex (1856)
 * Egbert Ludoricus Viele, brigadier general in the Union Army, military governor of Norfolk, Virginia; U.S. Representative from New York

Theology

 * Alphonsus J. Donlon, Roman Catholic priest and President of Georgetown University
 * Angus Dun, 4th Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington in Washington, DC
 * John Loughlin, 1st Bishop of Brooklyn, New York (1853–1891)
 * Clarence A. Walworth, attorney, writer, Roman Catholic priest, and missionary

Faculty/administration
Noted former faculty and administration include inventors, politicians, and seven college presidents, including four presidents of Amherst College:
 * George W. Atherton, president of the Pennsylvania State University
 * Simeon Baldwin, Mayor of New Haven, Connecticut, U.S. Representative, justice on the Superior Court of Connecticut
 * Theodric Romeyn Beck, forensic medicine pioneer
 * William Henry Campbell, president of Rutgers University
 * John Chester, the second president of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
 * George Hammell Cook, chemistry, geology professor, vice president of Rutgers University, director New Jersey Geological Survey
 * Merrill Edwards Gates, president of Amherst College and Rutgers University
 * Peter Gansevoort, member of the New York State Assembly and New York State Senate
 * Julian Gibbs, president of Amherst College
 * Joseph Henry, natural philosopher, telegraphy pioneer, first curator of the Smithsonian Institution
 * Albert Hull, physicist, inventor of the magnetron and dynatron
 * Alexander Meiklejohn, president of Amherst College, Dean of Brown University, winner of the Presidential Medal of Freedom
 * David Murray, American educator and government adviser in Meiji period Japan, professor, Rutgers University
 * George Olds, president of Amherst College
 * Charles Emory Smith, U.S. Minister to Russia (1890–1892), U.S. Postmaster General (1898–1902)
 * Frederick Townsend, Union officer in the American Civil War, Adjutant General of the State of New York (1857–1861, 1880)

title: The Albany Academy


text:
Watten, Nord

Watten ( Waten, meaning "ford" as in "river-crossing") is a commune in the Nord department in northern France. Its inhabitants are called "Wattenais".

History
In the 10th century the region around Watten belonged to the Abbey of Saint-Riquier though the counts of Boulogne and Flanders attempted to take possession of it. The abbey of Watten was the oldest foundation of regular canons in the dioceses of Therouanne. While on the way to the Holy Land during the First Crusade, count Robert II of Flanders received several relics from the duke of Apulia, Roger Borsa, including a hair of the Virgin as well as some bones of St Matthew and St Nicholas. Robert II sent them back to his wife Clemence who had them installed in the abbey of Watten in October 1097.

In 1099, pope Urban II granted the regular canons of the Abbey privileges.

Geography
Watten is located at the limit of the French Flanders historical county. However, the local Dutch dialect (French Flemish) is virtually extinct. The neighbouring villages are Wattendam (commune of Holque), Millam, Serques, Éperlecques and Wulverdinghe.

While Watten belongs to the Nord département, it is bordering the Pas-de-Calais département. The village is crossed by the rivers Aa and Colme.

Climate
Watten has an oceanic climate (Köppen climate classification Cfb). The average annual temperature in Watten is 11.3 C. The average annual rainfall is 822.8 mm with November as the wettest month. The temperatures are highest on average in August, at around 18.6 C, and lowest in January, at around 4.8 C. The highest temperature ever recorded in Watten was 41.9 C on 25 July 2019; the coldest temperature ever recorded was -19.3 C on 14 January 1982.

Sights
The village is famous for its old ruined abbey, and for its mill, which was restored in the 1990s. These two buildings are located on the "Mountain of Watten" (72 metres high). Its church dates from the thirteenth century.

Nearby is the Blockhaus d'Éperlecques, a massive German bunker site from World War Two, wrecked by Allied bombing. It is now a museum.

title: Watten, Nord


text:
Keith Scott (musician)

Keith Douglas Scott (born July 20, 1954) is a Canadian guitarist. He is best known for his collaboration with Bryan Adams, for whom he plays lead guitar, since 1976. He has also worked with notable singers including Cher, Tina Turner, David Bowie, Bryan Ferry, Tom Cochrane, Craig Northey, João Pedro Pais, Jann Arden.

Early life
Scott was born in Vancouver, British Columbia. His father played jazz piano and his mother sang occasionally. At age 14, he learned how to play the acoustic guitar and, by the time he was 17, he had acquired a used 1960s Fender Stratocaster, which was to become a regular instrument. Many of his musical influences, including Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck, were also associated with this instrument.

Scott formed a band with people he had met at school but quickly found work with better-known bands such as "Bowser Moon", The Handley Page Group and Zingo, playing about 300 shows a year in the then lucrative nightclub scene.

Work with Bryan Adams
Scott was introduced to Adams in Ontario in the summer of 1976. In the late 1970s, he started doing some recording work for the then-unknown Adams. This proved successful and within a year, Scott was touring with Adams. They have been together on stage ever since.

In a Twitter post in May 2016, Bryan Adams described Scott as "the most underrated guitarist ever".

Musical style and influence
Writing for Premier Guitar, Nashville bassist and producer Victor Brodén wrote:

"'Keith Scott [...] is an endless source of inspiration for me. His solos are immediate. And anyone is able to sing them after just one or two listens. He plays the most simple, hooky, major-scale melodies, mixes them with a little blues to make them slightly dirty, and then finishes it all off with a right-hand attack and intent that floors me. I try to craft my bass lines like Keith crafts guitar solos.'" Notably among his admirers was Eddie Van Halen, who held Scott in particularly high regard. While presenting guitarist, rock journalist and author Joe Matera's book "Louder Than Words: Beyond the Backstage Pass" (2024), the author singled out a guitar solo as an all-time favorite. The song and solo in question are none other than Native Son from Bryan Adams' album Into the Fire, Matera said about it: "“I think that guitar solo, and I’ll stake my reputation, that’s one of the greatest guitar solos ever committed to tape.[...] “Because in all the guitar magazines when I write the top-10 guitar solos of all time, it always mentions Stairway to Heaven, Comfortably Numb, but no one ever mentions Native Son by Keith Scott. And I think that solo as a guitar player has got everything: taste, melody, style, you name it. And I think it’s so overlooked.”"

Instruments and equipment
Gretsch produced a "Keith Scott Nashville Gold Top" signature guitar, to Scott's specifications.

Keith mainly uses a Fender Stratocaster when on tour with Bryan Adams though he does change guitars throughout the set. In the early to mid-'80s, he used a Gibson Les Paul more and towards the end of the '80s he used a Telecaster on tour.

Keith uses a variety of Boss Pedals as well as an Ibanez Tube Screamer.

Personal life
Scott resides in San Diego, California. He is married and has two children.

title: Keith Scott (musician)


text:
Talk:Clay Aiken/Archive 1

First most records sold
I edited this:

 * (after Ruben Studdard), but has largely eclipsed the official contest winner in both popularity and record sales.

NPOV, people. Clay may have sold more records than Ruben (has he? can anyone provide documented proof?), but popularity is a subjective term, especially since Clay and Ruben have two seperate fan bases. --b. Touch 11:03, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm fairly confident that Clay's record sales surpass Ruben's, but since their albums were released quite some time ago, it's been difficult to find evidence. The most recent source comparing the two I could find is from USA Today (April 2004). Ruben's official site states that Soulful has gone double platinum; this RIAA webpage states that Measure of a Man had achieved double platinum by the end of 2003. According to CBS, however, Clay's album has gone triple platinum.

 * even if Clay outsold Ruben, it should be stated as just that. Record sales are nto a barometer of popularity (Britney Spears is testament to that). Popularity is both subjective and factionalized. --b. Touch 22:19, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * It depends on how "record sales" is defined, though--are we counting the sales of singles and albums or merely the albums? - Gemtiger 07:20, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I found an article from VNU Media Measurement/Nielsen Media. It tells how Clay Aiken's record sales have surpassed any other contestant to date (1/18/05). When is says "combined", I assume that means single sales, as well. Here is an excerpt: {Album sales (Nielsen SoundScan) - to date, the former contestant whose albums have sold the most is 2003 runner-up Clay Aiken. Aiken's combined album sales is more than 3.6 million copies with his debut album "Measure of a Man" selling more than 2.7 million copies (ETA: shipped 3 million-triple platinum). The 2002 winner Kelly Clarkson's combined album sales are more than 3 million, and her debut album, "Thankful", sold more than 2.1 million copies. Ruben Studdard's, the 2003 winner, combined album sales are more than 2 million copies and his debut album, "Soulful" sold more than 1.7 million copies. The 2004 winner Fantasia Barrino's debut album, "Free yourself", which was released December 2004, has sold more than 690,000 copies to date.} It goes on to say: "Aiken's albums (including his follow-up album "Merry Christmas With Love") have spent a total of 42 weeks in the charts." Clay has clearly stated numerous times that "This is NOT a competition." They have different fan bases and appeal to different genres of music.Angelcat4jc

 * Has it always said the "season's most popular and successful star" or I am just blind? Anywho, that is a correct statement, and I'm quite happy with it, so I'm taking out what I had written previously (which was a total essay), but it still holds true that as of May sales that Kelly has outsold Clay (for future reference). ;) - Reminiscent 20:33 June 26, 2005 (UTC)

Another edit: Clay has a guest-starring role on the NBC comedy "Scrubs" on Tuesday, February 15, 2005. He plays a "nerdy" cafeteria worker who is on the verge of being fired due to budget cuts. He gets a makeover and sings Stevie Wonder's "Isn't She Lovely" in a hospital talent show in order to save his job.Angelcat4jc

Clay will start working on his third album (dubbed by the Claymates as "son of MOAM") in March, 2005. digitalspy article and Launch Radio Network No news on a specific release date, but speculation on the messageboards is that new music will be ready for a Summer 2005 tour starting in May 2005.Angelcat4jc

Is he or isn't he
I put the allegations about Clay possibly being gay back into the article. I'm not saying for once minute that Clay is gay or straight. I simply think this is such an obvious statement that most people would expect to see in this article. Fair or not, Clay is probably the one artist today whose sexuality is called into question more than any other celebrity. When people say that Clay is gay these are only allegations and that's what this article says such statements are...only allegations. The sentence does not say that Clay "is" gay or that Clay is "rumoured to be" gay...it just says that many people have made allegations towards Mr. Aiken. So many have raised questions about Clay that it is impossible to deny the debate. Also, by being located at the end of the article, this sentence couldn't be any more out of the way and unobtrusive. - MatthewUND

I know Clay's popular, but do we really need all the fansite links? Wikipedia is not a link repository. I have limited Internet access, so I can't check the sites out and see which ones are worthy, but I think the number of fansite links on this page is ridiculous. Hermione1980 00:35, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This sentence keeps getting edited out:

 * There is a vocal segment of fans who speculate that Clay is gay, but he has denied such allegations said he is not.

I personally think it's unlikely that he is gay, but the fact is, the allegations speculations have been made—repeatedly—and one tiny sentence at the bottom of the article is needed to acknowledge this. The sentence is NPOV, states the issue clearly and concisely, and I really believe it needs to stay. Hermione1980 14:03, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I reworded to remove the word allegation which is not NPOV. You do not allege someone is a hero, you allege they are a villan. Allegation is inherently perjorative in its connotation, even if not in its denotation. Jliberty 15:14, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

 * Now you mention it, you're right: allegation is not an NPOV word. Now I can stand by what I said earlier—with a few revisions! Hermione1980 16:06, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm glad that the word "allegation" was removed in the article's final sentence. I wasn't really thinking about the connotation of the term when I put it in. I certainly didn't mean any negative connotation. Now, if we could just get some of these anonymous "Claymates" to stop removing the sentence... --MatthewUND 19:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Does it matter wheather Clay is gay or straight? his sexuailty will not effect his voice one way or another!

Added to RfC
This page has now been added to RfC, due to the continued reverting of the sentence There is a vocal segment of fans who speculate that Clay is gay, but he has said he is not. It's been deleted/undeleted three times today. An anonymous user has deleted it three times, and two other users have reverted it. This sentence has also been reverted/restored before. 22:16, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * From RfC: Well, I don't see the harm in including it. I am not an American Idol fan, and don't particularly follow Clay Aiken or anybody else from the show, but I've definitely heard the rumors and I'd say most of my friends have as well.  Totally unscientific, but anyway.  I don't see the harm in presenting the information as long as it's in an NPOV fashion.  It's even been lampooned on Saturday Night Live.  In fact, maybe that's the best way to get at the reference.  I can't remember now all the context, but I'll see if I can dig something up.  Anybody else who feels like looking, dive in. If people keep insisting on reverting despite the current consensus to keep here on the talk page, I'd recommend maybe protecting the page.  · Katefan0(scribble) 02:42, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * I just RV'ed the deletion of the sentence and left a message on the user's usertalk page to please come talk to us here so we can get a consensus. If they ignore the message and continue rving then I think maybe we should report him or her for 3RR and possibly ask for the page to be protected. · Katefan0(scribble) 15:17, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * The anon user just removed the information again. Then added back "Line removed by scanning utility."  (?)  This smacks of a new user to me.  I warned them again on their talk page.  If it's changed again, I'll report them to 3RR. · Katefan0(scribble) 15:31, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * Same thing. I've reported them for 3RR.  Someone else should revert the change again. · Katefan0(scribble) 16:37, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, he's been blocked temporarily. · Katefan0(scribble) 21:50, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. I've now requested the page be temporarily protected. I hope I didn't make a mistake in doing that… Hermione1980 00:05, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Considering that, for whatever reason, the admin who blocked him apparently only blocked him for four hours, and that now we have a phalanx of other anon editors with the same agenda so it doesn't even matter, it was time to ask for it to be protected. I can't make any changes myself until this afternoon because my last revert was at 4pm, but once that happens I'm going to shore up that line a little bit. Maybe it'll be less objectionable to them then (but probably not). · Katefan0(scribble) 15:43, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

For those anonymous users who seem to so fervently disagree with the line in question, I would invite them to take a look at this website: Openly Clay. This is a popular fanboard that has over 61,000 posts by people who speculate that Clay might be gay. They are involved in extensive "shipping" and analyze each little aspect of their idol's life. If this kind of board doesn't count as a "vocal segment" questioning Clay's sexuality I don't know what could. --MatthewUND 17:16, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank goodness. The original anon ip has been blocked for 48 hours, and the page is now protected. Once it's been long enough for them to lose interest, I propose this:  Some have speculated that Clay is gay, though he has denied such suggestions. In fact, Clay good-naturedly lampooned the rumors by playing a member of a gay chorus when he appeared as a musical guest on Saturday Night Live's February 7, 2004 show.  · Katefan0(scribble) 20:53, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * Second Katefan's suggestion. Hermione1980 21:15, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I think that sentence is a very good compromise and couldn't be mistaken by any reasonable user to be slanted or offensive. Thanks Katefan! --MatthewUND 03:38, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Can I third or fourth it? As a Clay fan? Gemtiger 05:21, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to alter the article in the normal wiki-fashion, the article is now unprotected. Yell if the vandal returns. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:47, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Last Paragraph of Clay Aiken's Wikipedia Commentary/Accomplishments
Everything that has been written about Clay has been a wonderful and a true listing of his accomplishments. These are FACTS. The SPECULATION about his sexuality is NOT A FACT - so why include it in this document at all. What a let down at the end of the report to even mention the SPECULATION of him being Gay, which leaves such a negative assumption/suggestion after all the truly wonderful accomplishments previously listed. Yes, Clay has denied the fact that he is Gay, why not just believe him! That topic just does not belong with his accomplishments listed on Wikipedia.

Furthermore, Clay is a Christian. He openly discusses his faith and credits his accomplishments to Gods plan for his life. A true Christian believes only in the union between a man and a women.

Clay is NOT GAY. Get over it! Those comments just have no place here!

I wish you would just write about Clay as the wonderful, caring and "want to make a difference" kind of guy that he is. KJ-MN; June 12, 2005; 1:00 pm CST

 * Wikipedia does not strive to give a "positive" or "negative" impression of anyone. Our goal here is to present everything in a neutral point of view (see WP:NPOV). Indeed, if we just said point-blank "Clay Aiken is gay", that would be neither a fact nor NPOV. However, the speculation exists and is widespread; therefore, it is encyclopedic enough to merit a mention in Wikipedia. And this comes from someone who staunchly believes Clay is not gay.

 * If you disagree with the premise of being NPOV, I'm sorry, but I must respectfully ask you to abide by the consensus established here to include it (see section "Added to RfC", earlier). I am glad you came to the talk page to discuss it, though. Is there possibly a way the sentence can be worded to make it less offensive? Hermione1980 19:37, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * To the above: thank you for coming to talk.  If you like Wikipedia, maybe you'll consider creating an account and staying.

 * As Hermione said above, the point of an encyclopedia is not to present someone in as glowing a light as possible. It is to present the truth of someone, as accurately as possible and in a way that takes no sides, either positive or negative.  Where there is positive to mention, it should be mentioned.  Where there is negative to be mentioned, it should be mentioned.  We are not here to whitewash the truth nor to do a hatchet job on someone, or to otherwise present someone in any certain way except from a neutral point of view.  The speculation about Clay Aiken being gay exists and is quite widespread; it makes sense to treat it in this article.  Why deny it's out there?  Some would argue that it's better to include that information in the article so that the article can also include the counterpoint -- that Aiken has refuted it repeatedly.

 * And, this is appropos of nothing in terms of Clay Aiken, but there are plenty of gay Christians out there. A true Christian believes that all of God's children are deserving of his love and teachings. · Katefan0(scribble) 19:54, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

 * I see nothing wrong with this handling of it, as the sexuality or speculatory sexuality of most other celebrities is mentioned in their entries here, especially if it is noteworthy - and in Aiken's case, it is. Aiken knows who and what he is, and it is to his credit that he simply no longer discusses it.

 * Is Wikipedia an encyclopedia or the National Enquirer? Questions about a person's sexuality has no place in an encyclopedia when the person featured has been forced to declare his sexual preference to appease the likes of tabloids.  I am disappointed with Wikipedia.  If this is the liberal bias that it is going to show, I can in no way recommend it to my students as an authoritative resource. Instead, if they want to read about pop culture, they should turn to the St. James Encyclopedia of Popular Culture.  Yes, I am a school librarian with an MLIS.  Your web encyclopedia was a major topic of debate at the NECC convention.  And although, you have a variety of supporters, there are a large group of educators, special interest groups such as librarians (SIGMS) who have decided to continue to discuss whether they can in good conscience recommend the web site to their students.  It is this type of speculation, that does not by any means state a fact, that causes most of the educators to shy away from allowing their students to use this as a resource. "Encyclopedic enough" must be your standard which in my opinion equates to just "good enough."  I am glad that print encyclopedias do not adhere to that standard. M Silgals, July 3, 2005.
 * Wikipedia openly states that it is not censored. If that has the possibility to offend your students' sensibilities, then perhaps it's best you made that choice. Thanks. · Katefan0(scribble) July 4, 2005 18:32 (UTC)

Indeed, I will take your suggestion to heart. Whenever I post to the listservs for the American Library Association, and its special interest group, the American Library Association of School Librarians, I will convey your position against "censorship." Both entities are advocates of choice. Yet, they are also aware of the need for school librarians to be fully aware of the fact that a resource is not censored and that it may contain objectionable materials. In other words, few librarians, once informed that you allow speculation in your articles, will take the risk; they will not see your "encyclopedia" as an authoritative reference material. Wikipedia is basically one big blog. M. Silgals July 5, 2005.

section break
I can't agree that the existence of Openly Clay is any sort of legitimate reference point in a search for relevence on the question of whether or how to mention the gay speculation. Openly Clay is a small group of women who are dedicated to proving that Clay is gay and their primary focus is in writing slash fantasy pornographic fan fiction and shipping Clay with any male they fancy. A handful of people focused on this purely selfish entertainment out of literally hundreds of message boards devoted to Clay that do not question his self-identity, is not representative enough to consider it "widespread", although the Openly Clay group do try hard to spread the gay rumors at every opportunity.

In all fairness, if a celeb has been rumored to be gay, then all of their profiles should mention it. If you do a search on the names below, all of them are currently suffering the same fate as Clay and their profiles don't address it. Why pick on some celebs and not others?

Hayden Christensen:

A Socialite's Life: Hayden Christensen Kisses Ewan McGregor Hayden christensen is not gay !!!! I've seen this thing (==>picture) at school and I felt bad ... HAYDEN CHRISTENSEN :. HE DOES NOT GAY. AND I LOVE HIM !

Marcia Cross:

EXCLUSIVE** ABC to repeat Marcia Cross "View" appearance "I'M NOT GAY!"

Kevin Spacey:

Mirror.co.uk - News - All News Archive - KEVIN SPACEY MUGGED AND ... DOUBLE Oscar star Kevin Spacey has been brutally mugged. ... Spacey, who has constantly fought off rumours that he is gay, was not available for comment

George Clooney:

b-gay.net on-line Magazine gay profiles of the world gay profiles b-gay.net on-line Magazine Celebrating gay and lesbian ... With the newfound exposure, George Clooney was finally a star and finally made the ...

Anthony Federov:

WOW Report: The St. James Version Extra: Idol Thoughts anthony federov - climb every mountain one of the most twisted tv moments of the ... So Anthony is gay right, is this something that needs to be questioned. ...

Oprah Winfrey:

RE: Even Ass-Kissing Liz Smith...  Wasn't Liz the one who wrote a blind item implying that Oprah was going to come out?

Vin Deisel:

I've heard he came out years ago on Oprah. This was before he was well-known. Considering he refuses to answer about his orientation should tell you something.

KatienVin wrote: WillowMoonGoddes wrote: kinkiiman wrote: Does anyone out there know if Vin Diesel is Gay, a friend of mine said they say him in an interivew and they asked him and he refused to answer???? Hi! I have not heard anything definitive about Vin being gay, I have seen all of those rumors and people claimin he is "inside" hollywood. I also know he hangs around a lot, I repeat a lot of men, and have ya noticed when he isn't doing charity work, or what not, he's NEVER around women??? He was also seen taking a pic at the Mynt in Miami's south beach not too long ago, with a very gay looking gentlemen at the club?? Does this and more add up to he's gay? No,but so many flags pointing to the answer "hell yes!" To list them all would take a long time.

Matthew Broderick:

"I've heard Matthew Broderick gives fantastic ****..."

Someone posted on a thread a while back that his technique was quite good. I'd have to sample for myself, however, to be sure."

To continue to question anyone's orientation is purely gossip.

Sectioning
I've broken the article into sections, since it was getting too long for one continual piece. I've also added material on his performances on Idol, which was surprisingly absent. Wasted Time R 28 June 2005 17:04 (UTC)

Question and caution
MatthewUND, I'm curious about your adamance in adding the sentence in the first place, and your reference to Openly Clay as some sort of landmark in your case. Why are you so interested in including this material and why do you see this message board as some sort of validation? There are many Clay Aiken message boards and they are just as "vocal", and all fan boards engage in the "shipping" and the analysis of every minute detail of Clay's life. Openly Clay is intended as a refuge from homophobia, and a place to show Clay himself that if he IS gay, he has a core fanbase that won't desert him, and that embraces all expressions of sexuality including strap-ons and porn.

Also, it is very likely that this page will have to be locked down now that Clay fans have located this discussion, you will be bombarded here with board wars and fan in-fighting that will get quite ugly. Clay would be horrified by what his fans do to each other "in his name."

 * Anonymous, you don't need to "caution" me. First of all, have you ever heard of a signature?  Adding a signature to a comment is standard practice here for anyone who wants to stand behind what they say.

 * Clay Aiken may be gay. Clay Aiken may not be gay.  No one knows except Clay Aiken.  It would be wrong to state in the article that "Clay Aiken is gay."  However, no one has ever attempted to do that since I've been watching the article.  People have only tried to add the small bit of information in that some people speculate that Aiken is gay.  This speculation (fair or not) is so widespread that it is worthy of inclusion here.

 * I was never so "adamant" about adding the sentence. I just added one small sentence that is a fact (many people DO speculate about Clay).  That's all I really ever did.  Another anonymous user thought that repeatedly deleting the sentence (without adding any reason why) was a great way to spend a day or two.  I, and several other people, saw that deleting a sentence just because you don't like it was inappropriate behavior here on Wikipedia so, as they kept deleting it, we kept putting it back in.  I was not so "adamant."  I just didn't think that an anonymous user's opinion of the sentence should cancel out all other opinions.

 * You define Openly Clay in much too harsh of terms. It is not as explicit as you would have others think nor is it the opinions of a select few.  The board has had many users (gay and straight, male and female).  Most of these users don't state that, without question, "Clay is gay."  Instead, it has become a place where those who aren't "traditional clay fans" (conservative Christians who do not approve of homosexuality) feel free to visit with other like minds and engage in a much more worthwhile experience than what they feel they are presented with on other Clay boards.  It is a large group of fans and it is a vocal group of fans so, yes, it is a worthy point of reference in this discussion. MatthewUND July 4, 2005 07:27 (UTC)

MatthewUND, you speak as though you have personal experience and knowledge of Openly Clay. Surely then you are aware of just how explicit the members-only section of that message board really is. You try to minimize the nature of the board while touting its relevance to the general population and popular culture. The 13,14 and 15 year olds that are members, and have access to the members-only area, are exposed to slash fiction, confessions about perverted sexual fantasies and photoshopped images of homosexual acts. This small message board's population is not representative of the general public. Openly Clay has 313 registered members to date. Clayboard has over 13,000, The Official Fanclub that launched June 28th 2005 has 6,667 members on their message board as of today. There are hundreds of message boards devoted to Clay, there are websites devoted to assisting the un-initiated in finding their way through the miriaid of choices.

The 313 deluded souls who populate Openly Clay must not be allowed to have this much influence. I have personal knowledge of the contents and the intent of Openly Clay and if Wikipedia treats it as a credible source then the decision makers here are completely un-professional and irresponsible.

Matthew also stated that the conservative Christians object to the content and the speculation. He neglects all other demographics, whether they be religous or political. Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and Kaballists,according to Matthews statement, must either agree with homosexuality or they are not a population worthy of note. Let's not forget that a large portion of the population is made up of atheists and agnostics. Do they also approve of under-aged kids participating in gay porn and gossip mongering?

Shame on Wikipedia for adding the speculation in the first place.

If all celebrities who have endured speculation are not saddled with the gossip, then none of them should be. This gossip does not belong among factual data.

User:Miklos Szabo July 4, 2005 11:02
 * Wikipedia is not censored. If you feel that there may be something in uncensored material that could possibly offend your senses, then perhaps you may prefer to visit another website. Thanks. As for the gay speculation, it's not a small thing.  It's rampant in the popular culture discussion about him.  That makes it relevant, and besides which, gives a chance for the counterpoint, which is his denial.  · Katefan0(scribble) July 4, 2005 18:35 (UTC)

I'm not sure if your rant, katefan0, was aimed at me but its arrogant, aggressive, obnoxious and irrelevant. If you surround yourself with people who are focused on the type of gossip that focusses on speculation about a celeb's sexuality, then of course it will be common in your circle. The speculation does not come up in my circle of friends. Who is more representative then?

User:Miklos Szabo July 4, 2005 11:48
 * I'll ignore the insults. It's irrelevant whether it's common in my circle, your circle, or in outer space — the speculation is obviously common enough knowledge in popular culture to have garnered mention on Saturday Night Live (several times -- including once when Aiken was a guest star), and to result in a fair bit of coverage in the press, including the Washington Blade, DC's gay publication, and of course it's all over the blogosphere. Just a quick Google search will show you how much. · Katefan0(scribble) July 4, 2005 19:00 (UTC)

Once again katefan0, you only prove my point. If your only sources of information are gay gossip sites then you are immersed in a specific slice of popular culture that does not encompass the majority. BTW, Saturday Night Live did not make mention of any gay speculation when he was a guest star. The gay men's chorus was a reference to Megan Mulally's stint on Will & Grace. Your interpretation is not the defining one, but I do realize that your compadres at Openly Clay prefer to see it your way.

Did I mention that the Openly Clay members are dedicated to perpetuating and disseminating the belief that Clay is gay?

Upon searching "Clay Aiken" at Washington Blade. I found a January 2005 mention of his upcoming appearance in Scrubs and a discussion about Clay's publicist turning down an interview with the Wash Blade.

Even the readers of the Wash Blade are not convinced he's gay. Read the quoted part below. BTW these are all of the comments. I did not edit them.

Clay Mates defend gay press snub Re “Those feats of Clay” (Dish, Jan. 21)

"Why does Clay Aiken need to do a interview with the gay press? Some people just can’t seem to accept that the man, his family, and even his friends have all stated that he is nothing but heterosexual? Maybe they have their own gay stereotypes. If someone falls into one of them, that means they’re gay. Or maybe they’re jealous that Clay doesn’t just make the 14-year-olds scream. He is one of the only pop stars who can make females of all age groups weak at the knees, and scream with excitement without having to take off as much as his shirt. Let us females just love him!"

"What does Clay’s sexual orientation have to do with anything? Do you really think people who listen to his music expect to sleep with him? “You people” (whoever you are) have made jokes of the people you continue to “support.”"

"Honestly, why do some people want to force people to think Clay Aiken is gay? He says he isn’t. He is completely amazed at all the attention he is getting from girls and women because he says he has always been a “nerd” and sees himself as one when he looks in the mirror. Why should he want to appear in an article in a gay magazine? Clay is a decent, Christian, wholesome guy."

"The writer should check the facts before writing a story like this. Clay Aiken may not even be aware that gay magazines are trying to get an interview with him. The editor was in contact only with his publicist and those words were from the publicist and not Clay himself. "

"Perhaps the reluctance to grant interviews to the gay press is in the quote, “We tried to get an interview with the sexually ambiguous pop star.”"

User:Miklos Szabo July 4, 2005 1:13

 * It's really immaterial whether people believe he's gay or not. The article doesn't take a side either way. However, it does show that it's a matter of fairly widespread public discourse, which is exactly what the article says. · Katefan0(scribble) July 4, 2005 22:06 (UTC)

The article was published May 30 2003. Over 2 years ago and nothing since then other than a request for an interview. It is old and even the Wash Blade doesn't find it a topic of interest anymore.

User:Miklos Szabo July 4, 2005 3:13

 * That's not the point. The point is the speculation exists and we should cover it. Have you read the paragraph in question? Here it is, just in case:

 * Some have speculated that Aiken is gay, though he has denied such suggestions. In fact, he good-naturedly lampooned the rumors by playing a member of a gay chorus when he appeared as a musical guest on Saturday Night Live's February 7, 2004 show.

 * Let me analyze this. "Some have speculated that Aiken is gay" means, in this case, a bunch of dudes have said, "Hey. Clay looks like he might be gay." "He has denied such suggestions" means Clay heard the dudes saying that and came back with, "Wait a minute, no I'm not." "He good-naturedly lampooned the rumors" means he finds the rumors laughable. I haven't got a clue what the SNL thing was about — I don't watch it — but most of the time, if some rumor has been going around about you and you do what the rumor says on SNL, that means the rumor isn't true. Look at the mess with Paula Abdul last year.

 * I think I've stated this before, but I'll state it again: I personally do not think Clay is gay. However, I do think you are making a mountain out of a molehill about this paragraph. We've already had one revert war over this paragraph; the page was protected; Katefan subsequently rewrote the paragraph once to make it less objectionable; and at least four editors have agreed to include it. If you feel you are on the right side, then by all means, you can file a request for comments and get the opinion of the community as a whole. Hermione1980 4 July 2005 22:44 (UTC)

Thank you. I appreciate the info.

My question upthread was never addressed. Why are other celebs who are experiencing the same or even more intense speculation about their sexual orientation in the current popular press not showing the speculation reflected in their profiles, yet there is a fight to keep the "less objectionable" line in Clay's?

Less objectionable still sucks, btw, just a little less. My problem with it is that it perpetuates and legitimizes the gossip. Many teenagers will wonder why the mention was included if it were not true. The gay rumors are fading in the press yet Wikipedia insists on keeping the subject alive.

User:Miklos Szabo July 4, 2005 4:03

 * Fine. You find the same number of fans that have made such speculations for other celebs, you put it in their Wikipedia article(s). The only reason it's not in their articles already is that no one has put it in. The reason it's in this article is because there is such an active fanbase that does such speculation. Wikipedia is not "keeping the subject alive" — it's only documenting that the subject exists.

 * Like I said before, if you don't like it, by all means, file an WP:RFC about it. And I find your line about "Less objectionable still sucks" to be objectionable, btw, as I find "sucks" to be an inappropriate word in this context. Should I censor out that line because I find it offensive and because someone else might run across it and be offended? Hermione1980 5 July 2005 01:14 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 19:57, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Clay Aiken/Archive 1


text:
Augustin

Augustin may refer to:

 * Augustin (name), male name, variant of Augustine
 * Augustin (typography), English or 14-point type
 * Augustin, Brașov, a commune in Brașov County, Romania
 * Dacian fortress of Augustin, ruined Dacian fortified town in modern Romania
 * Palace of Augustin, a palace in Vitoria, Spain

Film

 * Augustin (film), a 1995 French film
 * Augustin, King of Kung-Fu, 1999 French movie

Music

 * O du lieber Augustin ("Oh, you dear Augustin"), a popular Viennese song
 * "Augustin" (song), Sweden's 1959 Eurovision Song Contest entry

title: Augustin


text:
Ida Rhodes

Ida Rhodes (born Hadassah Itzkowitz; May 15, 1900 – February 1, 1986 ) was an American mathematician who became a member of the clique of influential women at the heart of early computer development in the United States.

Childhood
Hadassah Itzkowitz was born in a Jewish village Kamianets-Podilskyi between Nemyriv and Tulchyn in Ukraine on May 15, 1900.

She was 13 years old in 1913 when her parents, David and Bessie (Sinkler) Itzkowitz, brought her to the United States. Her name was changed upon entering the country to Ida Itzkowitz.

Career
Rhodes was awarded the New York State Cash Scholarship and a Cornell University Tuition Scholarship and began studying mathematics at Cornell University only six years after coming to the United States, from 1919–1923. During her time at Cornell University she worked as a nurse's aid at Ithaca City Hospital. She was elected to the honorary organizations Phi Beta Kappa (1922) and Phi Kappa Phi (1923). She received her BA in mathematics in February, 1923 and her MA in September of the same year, graduating Phi Beta Kappa.

Ida Itzkowitz married Solomon Alhadef Rhodes on 20 September 1922 in Bronx, New York City, and became known as Ida Rhodes. The couple made a Declaration of Intention to become a citizen of the United States on 17 June 1924 but were divorced by 1940.

Rhodes had her first encounter with Albert Einstein in 1922 and encountered him again in 1936 at Princeton, where a group of mathematicians traveled to spend the weekend in informal seminars. She later studied at Columbia University in 1930–31. She held numerous positions involving mathematical computations before she joined the Mathematical Tables Project in 1940, where she worked under Gertrude Blanch, whom she would later credit as her mentor.

Ida Rhodes was a pioneer in the analysis of systems of programming, and with Betty Holberton designed the C-10 programming language in the early 1950s for the UNIVAC I. She also designed the original computer used for the Social Security Administration. In 1949, the Department of Commerce awarded her a Gold Medal for "significant pioneering leadership and outstanding contributions to the scientific progress of the Nation in the functional design and the application of electronic digital computing equipment".

Though she retired in 1964, Rhodes continued to consult for the Applied Mathematics Division of the National Bureau of Standards until 1971. Her work became much more widely known after her retirement, as she took the occasion to travel around the globe, lecturing and maintaining international correspondence. In 1976, the Department of Commerce presented her with a further Certificate of Appreciation on the 25th Anniversary of UNIVAC I, and then at the 1981 Computer Conference cited her a third time as a "UNIVAC I pioneer." She died in 1986.

In an unusual case of an old specialized algorithm still in use, and still credited to the original developer, in 1977 Rhodes was responsible for the "Jewish Holiday" algorithm used in calendar programs to this day. While at the National Bureau of Standards (now NIST), she also did original work in machine translation of natural languages.

title: Ida Rhodes


text:
Watten, Highland

Watten (Bhatan) is a small village in Caithness, in the Highland area of Scotland, on the main road (A882-A9) between the burgh of Wick and the town of Thurso, about twelve kilometres (eight miles) west of Wick and close to Wick River and to Loch Watten. The village is on The Far North railway line but trains stopped calling at the village in 1960. The railway station is now a private house.

The village is within the parish of Watten, which has the parish of Bower to the north, that of Wick to the east, that of Latheron to the south and that of Halkirk to the west.

Loch Watten is the largest body of water in Caithness. The name of the village and loch appear to come from the Old Norse Vatn, meaning water or lake, and the loch is famous for its brown trout fishing. The local public house is also named "The Brown Trout" after the local produce.

Prisoner of war camp
A military camp was built in Watten during World War II, in early 1943, and at the end of the war this became POW Camp 165. This had been described as "Britain's most secretive prisoner of war camp" because many prominent Nazis were moved there from POW Camp 21 at Comrie in Perthshire. These prisoners included Gunter d'Alquen, Himmler's chief propagandist, leading U-boat captain Otto Kretschmer, dubbed the "Wolf of the Atlantic", and SS-Sturmbannführer Max Wünsche, one of Hitler's top aides. The camp closed in 1948.

Notable people
Watten was the birthplace of Alexander Bain, inventor of a type of pendulum-regulated electric clock and the fax machine. Bain is commemorated by a carved stone monument outside the village hall. The fax machine is referred to on this monument as "The Electric Printing Telegraph".

title: Watten, Highland


text:
Eldar Djangirov

Eldar Djangirov (born January 28, 1987), also known as Eldar, is an American jazz pianist. He was born in Bishkek, Kyrgyz SSR, Soviet Union to Tatiana, a piano teacher, and Emil, a professor of mechanical engineering, and is of Volga Tatar and Russian descent. He grew up in Kansas City, MO from the age of 10 and also lived in San Diego, California during his teenage years. As of 2007, he resides in New York City.

Career
Eldar began playing the piano when he was three years old. The first piece he remembers learning was "C Jam Blues". He later took classical lessons and was "discovered" at age 9 by the late New York City jazz aficionado Charles McWhorter, who saw him play at a festival in Siberia. The family relocated to Kansas City, drawn there in large part by the city's jazz history. During his Kansas City years, even before reaching his teens, Eldar already started building a reputation as a child prodigy, appearing on Marian McPartland's NPR show, Piano Jazz, when he was only 12 years old, being the youngest performer to appear on her show. Eldar attended Interlochen Center for the Arts in his young teenage years. Eldar attended St. Elizabeth's grade school and the Barstow School in Kansas City. Eventually, the family moved to San Diego where he attended the Francis W. Parker School (San Diego), and then to the Los Angeles area where he attended University of Southern California's Thornton School of Music. Eldar's playing style is characterized by prodigious technique and musicality. Downbeat noted in a review by Bob Doerschuk: "his command of the instrument is beyond staggering." He was signed to Sony Music at 18 and released 5 albums. His album, "Re-imagination," was nominated for a GRAMMY. Eldar has extensively toured throughout Europe, Asia and North America.

Eldar has been variously compared to Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson, Herbie Hancock and more; yet he also seems to absorb harmonic expansiveness from McCoy Tyner and at times the lyrical sensitivity from Bill Evans. Eldar performed at Grammy Awards telecast and was honored the first time in many years as a jazz artist. Eldar has also been seen on Conan O'Brien, CBS Saturday Early Show, Jimmy Kimmel Live and CBS Sunday Morning.

title: Eldar Djangirov


text:
Talk:Clay Aiken/Archive 2

Fansite links
I notice that there are no less than eleven links to fansites. This strikes me as excessive, so which ones should make the cut? --Calton | Talk 5 July 2005 06:13 (UTC)

 * Clay Nation News, Clayversity, the Clackhouse, Openly Clay, the Clayboard and the Official Fanclub Board pretty much cover the spectrum of what a curious Wiki user wanting an entry into his fan board world would need. I would eliminate the rest that are listed, and add this ezboard site http://p081.ezboard.com/bchautauqua.  It is a comprehensive, chronological archive of concert and appearance dates, setlists, and recaps.  It is very complete and a useful reference. --User: WebTraveler July 5 2005 16:51

Listed fansites

 * http://clayonline.sparkart.com/?
 * http://www.claynationnews.com - Clay Nation News
 * http://www.findingclayaiken.com/

edited to remove extraneous links.

My general opinion is that the last three should be cut immediately, since they're not even dedicated URLs: it speaks of amatuerishness. What about the rest? I'm not really equipped to judge their value.

And come to think, what IS the value of linking to a fansite? What is there that is missing from/unavailable to this article? --Calton | Talk 6 July 2005 00:33 (UTC)

 * I don't think you're equipped to judge their value, period, as you seem to know little about them. The domain Snowcream.net is owned and operated by the admins of Openly Clay and is used exclusively for the Openly Clay board. The board may not have registered the domain name "Openly Clay" but the board is as professionally run as any other. And as mentioned previously, it is the only board that allows open discussion on all subjects and has no censorship. The Lecherous Broads may only be part of Diaryland, but they are one of the most popular Clay sites, and very different from other sites. Clay Nation News is also different from other sites and should be kept. As to the rest, most of them are indistinguishable from the others.

I know I'm not equipped to judge their value, because I wrote I'm not really equipped to judge their value. Reading comprehension is not big with you, apparently. You DO seem to have specialized knowledge, since you write they are one of the most popular Clay sites. Is there a Clay Aiken site Neilsen ranking that you're drawing on for this, or is it merely handwaving weasel words? Would you mind providing some verifiable data or comparisons instead of the angry handwaving?

The simplest solution would be delete all but the official fan club and be done with it and not ones being pushed by fans as their personal favorites. --Calton | Talk 6 July 2005 02:54 (UTC)

 * It's you who need to brush up on your reading comprehension. First, I am quite aware you said you were "not equipped to judge" the remaining fan sites listed. I was expanding that to include all Clay sites, as you obviously have little knowledge of them. This was not intended as the insult you took it to be. Second, I was not angry, I was simply giving my opinion on the various fansites listed. Ask any Clay fan about the Lecherous Broads and they will tell you how popular they are. Whenever they update their site it is posted on virtually every Clay board. Obviously I cannot quantify this, but anyone reading the Clay boards knows this. Also, you completely ignored the fact that I was recommending keeping a variety of different sites rather than simply picking ones based on whether they had purchased their own domain name or not. Openly Clay, Clay Nation News and the Lecherous Broads are all quite different from generic Clay boards and as such would have a broad cross section of appeal and interest. Others of interest would be the Clayboard (biggest fan site) and the Clay Dawgs (male Aiken fans).

 * The only links that are needed are the Official Fanclub

http://clayonline.sparkart.com/?

 * and Finding Clay Aiken

http://www.findingclayaiken.com/

 * The rest are personal favorites and are not needed.

 * Please, sign your posts, all of you who didn't. It's hard to tell when one person's comments start and another's end. Keep the official sites — keep, maybe, the three or four most popular (most visited?) fansites — keep Openly Clay for the sake of quantifying that contentious paragraph. That's my opinion. Hermione1980 6 July 2005 15:23 (UT

 * I agree with Hermione1980's assessment, though I still don't agree that Openly Clay's existence in any way quantifies the contentious sentence. That sentence and the fact that the speculation exists qualifies Openly Clay, if anything.  Most of the links listed are fluffy fan silliness with no unique content.  --User: WebTraveler July 6 2005 14:21

If you decide to include the Openly Clay link you'll be inviting elementary aged and middle schoolers who use Wikipedia as an online encyclopedia to visit a sex site. Its completely inappropriate. Of the hundreds of fansites, that each have their own special flavor, this one is not to be singled out and highlighted. Why not ClayNation Singapore or ClayAikenKids instead? I think you should not link to individual fansites at all. If you consider it then have one of the editors take a good look around Openly Clay. Get the admin to give you access to the members only area. If you don't do that you will be recommending a site irresponsibly. Are you willing to contribute to endangering the welfare of a child and inviting children to view pornography? Be sure you really know what you are doing. Think about how easy it is to ruin a public person. Sure you have the right to whatever you want to print, and you can hide behind your disclaimers, but is it the right thing to do?

This is a good man who tries hard to be a good role model for children. He's a spokesperson for Ronald McDonald House Charities, The US Marine Corp Toys for Tots, he is sponsored by Disney, he contributes to the Disney Hand charities and Youth Service America, he will be this year's Unisef Trick or Treat Campaign spokesperson. He has his own foundation, The Bubel Aiken Foundation, and he founded and implemented Camp Gonzo in several cities for the YMCA and has been on 2 Unicef Field Missions in the past 6 months. He contributes his time and money to other children's charities as well as several Aids charities. This man does not deserve to have his image destroyed in the eyes of the public and particularly children for the sake of a few people who get entertainment out of sexually objectifying him. These people don't care if they ruin him, they just want to have fun at his expense. Its a travesty!

--User: Miklos Szabo July 6 2005 15:19

 * You seem to be well-acquainted with Openly Clay's contents. I suppose that means you or one of your "circle of friends" are a member, since you keep talking about the members-only section. I am fairly sure there is something in the disclaimer stating something to the effect of "Wikipedia is not responsible for the content of sites linked to in its articles". We are not "inviting" anyone to visit any of the links listed anywhere in the whole encyclopedia. They are only listed here for further reading if you feel like it. Can anyone else involved in this discussion verify your claims about the content of Openly Clay? Hermione1980 6 July 2005 23:23 (UTC)

Hermoine1980 said, "However, I do think you are making a mountain out of a molehill about this paragraph."

So are you, Hermoine. May I ask why?

You also seem quite a bit more informed about the content of Openly Clay than you let on. I strongly suspect that you are a member and have an AGENDA!

Would you like posts from that site to back up the claims that it is not a good idea to link to it? You'd be amazed at the links to things I could provide you from various members.

There is a very good reason that Openly Clay could not get the domain name for their website, but I won't bore you with the details. It involves a whole lot of legalese and some VERY high-priced lawyers.

User:Marie Lavaux 6 July 2005 23:59

 * edited to remove content copied from a private, password protected website*

User:Miklos Szabo 6 July 2005
 * I'd venture to guess that this hand-picked missive is hardly representative of all of the forum's members. · Katefan0(scribble) July 7, 2005 04:31 (UTC)

I would guess that you are a member as well, Katefan. You people don't hide your agendas very well. User:Marie Lavaux 6 July 2005
 * Uh, okay. What agenda is that, exactly?  If I were a member I wouldn't have a problem mentioning it, but I'm not.  Personally I find Clay Aiken to be a joke (sorry Hermione); I only came here because about a month ago someone listed it on RFC.  Beyond which, I'm a woman.  What interest would I possibly have in a gay Clay Aiken fansite? · Katefan0(scribble) July 7, 2005 04:40 (UTC)

 * They are all women.

 * edited to remove content copied from a private, password protected website*
 * edited again to remove pointless and obviously inventive domain registry information*
 * This is getting into fan in-fighting that was cautioned against further up in this mess of edits. As the original matter of the wording of the statement has been conferred on and agreed upon by no less than three editors, I would suggest locking down this page. -- User: WebTraveler July 7 2005 05:00

So much for not believing in censorship. I guess you believe in it well enough when it doesn't suit your purposes. My posts did not quote anything from another board. They were personal opinion, but got deleted anyway.

User:Marie Lavaux7 July 2005

katefan0 and WebTravelor are trying very hard to end this discussion but the truth about the nature of the Openly Clay site can be proven. Hermione asked if anyone can back up the allegations that the members only area contains pornographic language and images. Entire edits have been censored and deleted to the point of removing signatures so that it looks like they never existed. A few were censored but the signatures remain. It is not a true reflection of how much is missing and the explanations for the edits are not true. The domain name registration info for snowcream.net is factual and on record with dreamhost.com

I saved this page before the edits. It can be re-created. These people (Openly Clay members) are bound and determined to keep the truth from Wikipedia. The evidence is repeatedly deleted. They call it a fanwar because they want to minimize the impact of the evidence that was deleted and they want to prevent the posting of any more. Openly Clay has a vested interest in keeping Wikipedia from the truth.

User:Miklos Szabo7 July 2005
 * You might like to be more careful with your allegations -- I haven't deleted any discussions. · Katefan0(scribble) July 7, 2005 16:05 (UTC)

The format of this board is confusing so I hope I'm posting this right. I don't think the Openly Clay board should be linked or referenced here. I've seen the board and it is extremely hateful towards Clay. Why "fans" would want to spend so much of their time tearing someone down is beyond me, but I can only imagine that they have nothing better going on in their lives. That board should not be listed with actual fan sites.--Mouse316

section break and moved text
If you're going to continue to post these ridiculous diatribes that have nothing to do with ANYTHING here on Wiki, at least have the decency to put them at the end of the articles. I still move for protecting this page, it is quickly becoming among the most ponderous, and likely most pointless, of WP:RFC. - User: WebTraveler July 7 2005 19:37

 * "I have visited this site (the articles at least) many times as Clay's career keeps getting bigger and more diverse. And each time it disgusts me to see the gay reference here.  This has nothing to do with his career and why he merits and encyclopedic entry.  And to have Openly Clay listed as a fansite is a joke.  The entire Clay Nation, with exception of that site, knows that they are not interested in his career or him.  Their main interest is who they can match him up with.  They write disgusting fiction and photoshop disgusting pictures of him with every male in sight.  It has nothing to do with believing in or supporting gays.  The fact that he says he is not, he has NEVER been seen in anything compromising (such as their make believe pictures) and nothing has ever been revealed of life to indicate he is gay.  Basing speculation on someone's looks or movements is what is homophobic and stereotypical---not the fact that his fans don't want to hear it or read it.  I don't care who is or isn't gay.  But when someone says they are not, that is the end of the discussion and speculation.  Expecting someone to prove their sexualty of preferences is utterly ridiculous.  It's like taking the constitutional right of a person, innocent till proven quilty to the extreme---gay until proven otherwise.  Well, just how do you prove it to idiots who are adamant in believing it.  Even to the point of saying they don't care what he says, if he marries, who he dates---they believe he is and WANT HIM TO COME OUT.  These members of this board are mostly loners, depressed in real life--by their own admissions.  Read their board and you will see it.  Many have been suicidual.  They have found a fun game and hobby in running around the web insisting that Clay is gay everywhere they can.  They want his other fans to leave the fandom.  They love his hairdresser but not him.  They are ridiculous and it is totally disrepectful and pathetic that this site takes their word and views (of 300) over the thousands of loyal Clay fans on other boards---that are there to support his career, follow his music, discuss his music and charities.  Openly Clay only writes porn fiction and discusses where else and how else to stir up more on the web.  And yes, many people have tons of proof of what is behind the "closed doors" at that site. It is not something most people, and certainly not young fans, should be around.

A Fan who cares about Clay --- not a gay agenda."

 * I am fed up. I leave the decision of keeping Openly Clay as a reference between Miklos, Katefan, and whoever else might join this discussion. All I ask is that the last paragraph of the "Aiken fans" section be kept in the article. Hermione1980 7 July 2005 23:39 (UTC)

 * Thank You.

User:Miklos Szabo7 July 2005

I have a question. Miklos Szabo just removed an entire comment by MatthewUND regarding the fansite Openly Clay. Is this allowed? Shouldn't MatthewUND be the only one who can remove his own comments? Also I don't know if you are aware that while having Finding Clay Aiken as a link and removing most others is not a bad idea, it effectively links every fansite EXCEPT Openly Clay because Finding Clay Aiken refuses to link to that site. I assume Miklos Szabo is aware of this which is why he or she did it. If the general agreement here is to remove all reference to Openly Clay that's one thing, but please don't let one person with an obvious agenda dictate how you run your site. Thanks for listening. ---Clay fan

 * I find it quite revealing that none of the other fansites are here pushing to have their personal favorites listed. Many fans have come to read this site and have been concerned about the discussion but not one of them is pushing their agenda except Openly Clay. I don't appreciate the accusations or the personal attack by the way. I'm surprised you have the nerve to sign yourself as ---Clay Fan. Clay is a polarizing celebrity and there are those who would like to destroy him.

User:Miklos Szabo8 July 2005

There was no agreement to remove the link to Openly Clay so I put it back. It appears to be correct that Finding Clay Aiken does not link to it so it would seem right to link to it here. RBA 7/8/05

 * There was no agreement to include it by any stretch of the imagination. The default should be to remove it, unless it is agreed to include it. I see no reason why a link to a site that ridicules and humiliates Clay should be in an article about him. I'm sure that the sites that ridicule and objectify other celebs would not be deemed appropriate for a reference article that outlines a career, as opposed to a report on a specialized sub-set of women who entertain themselves at the celeb's expense and want to recruit others like themselves. The focus of an article on Clay should be on Clay. Openly Clay is not about Clay, he is merely the object of their obsession.

User:Miklos Szabo8 July 2005

 * No, no, no. Default should be to keep until there is a consensus to delete. It's like the process at WP:VFD. Something is kept unless there is a clear majority opinion to delete — say, 66-70%. I count myself, Katefan, Matthew, and an anon or two in favor of keeping; I count you, Marie Lavaux, and an anon or two in favor of deleting. That translates to no consensus, which translates to "Until there is consensus, it should be kept." Hermione1980 8 July 2005 18:10 (UTC)
 * By my count, pro keep: Me, Hermione1980, MatthewUND, Blu Aardvark, WebTraveler (who is a new user), and possibly others if we took a quickpoll.  Pro delete:  Miklos Szabo and Marie Lavaux, who are both new users (and have suspiciously similar talk page habits).  Unless I'm missing another registered user, that's a pretty strong consensus to keep. · Katefan0(scribble) July 8, 2005 18:34 (UTC)

 * New is not less valid kate0. If the staff care to check, I am not anyone else here. If you OC people found the site first and have recruited others to create a very tiny majority, that may be temporary and the consensus is not in numbers but in the opinions expressed here. I see no counter arguments to the accusations made about Openly Clay. Is that because they are true? I know they are but if you ignore them its not looking good for Openly Clay.

User:Miklos Szabo8 July 2005

 * Sometimes new users' views are discounted, depending on the scenario -- particularly when it comes to official voting. Regardless of what the situation might be, it's common practice to note such information.  I didn't mean it to cause any offense.  Also, you should start using the standard notation to sign your posts -- if you type four tildes in a row, it'll automatically insert your user name and the date and time ( ~ ). It's much easier. Additionally, I haven't "recruited" anyone. All of us have been Wikipedians for quite some time, with the exception of WebTraveler. Besides, new doesn't mean less valid, right? · Katefan0(scribble) July 8, 2005 19:45 (UTC)

Taking consensus of the few people involved in this discussion: bad idea. Openly Clay is neither a representative nor a popular website--just vocal. OC is not unpopular with many because of their focus, but, because of the way in which they pursue their agenda. If they succeed in getting a ruling that their web link should stay, they will be back with another controversial entry, such as, perhaps, linking the name of a particular individual to Clay's. It will not stop. I know that I'm new here, but I did make some positive contributions to this Wikipedia entry some time ago; I haven't been back in a long time. Just wanted you to know that there are others who believe that the link should not be there. If there were a long, long list of sites, that would be one thing, but the current listing creates a false impression about the types of sites that exist. There are literally hundreds!

Jmh123 8 July 2005 19:56 (UTC)

 * has never made any contributions under that username except two to this talk page. Not that that makes his her vote less valid, or anything, and possibly this user contributed under an anonymous IP address, but I'm just noting facts. Hermione1980 8 July 2005 20:07 (UTC)

Good grief! My IP address is not anonymous. And I am a she. I am a member of the O-fficial Clay Aiken Fan Club under this username. I'm an active member of the Clackhouse, Clayversity, and the Clayboard under a different username. Prior to that I was active at one time or another on RHT, WMS, Clayton's Place, Idol Forums, and That's The Clay, under that other username. Was a log-in required at Wikipedia back when this entry was being built? If there was, then I may have another identity here that I've forgotten about. Jmh123 8 July 2005 20:28 (UTC)

 * Calm down. My bad. It's a habit of mine to refer to any users whose username gives no clue as to their gender as "he". And I wasn't talking about your contributions anywhere, under any name, except those you have made under this username here at Wikipedia. I'm not saying you haven't contributed — far from it — I'm only saying you haven't contributed under this username. No offense meant at all. "Anonymous IP address" was probably a redundancy on my part — I only meant you contributed while not logged in to Wikipedia as a registered user. Hermione1980 8 July 2005 20:37 (UTC)

 * I'm just learning how this talk section works, and reading more of the discussion here. I have to say that on first observation, I was under the impression that everyone involved was a fan.  As I read some of the other areas of discussion on Clay's entry, it seems that this is not the case, thus my "credentials" above are more or less irrelevant.  I do believe there is at least one OC member involved in the discussion.  My concern here is not so much that link to OC, as it is with the assumption that the voices of so few people should be taken as any kind of consensus in the larger world of the readers of your encyclopedia.  As I have already said, if this battle is "won", there will be another.  The word "vocal" is well chosen in your first conflict resolution.  Linking to a fan site with an agenda creates an imbalanced perception.  I saw a mention above that indicated that 61,000 posts was an impressive number.  In the world of Clay fandom, this is peanuts--Clackhouse has 273,000 as of today, Clayversity 189,000 (and this board just opened in January).  The Clayboard lost most of its posts in the EZboard hacking incident, but there must have been millions.  Clay's thread on TwoP (Television Without Pity) has over 9,000 posts and well over a million views, and that particular thread is the most recent of some 25 or 30.  I am not a conservative Christian, and I have no anti-gay agenda. I am arguing against a fringe group that is using Wikipedia as a means to an end.
 * Jmh123 8 July 2005 21:25 (UTC)

 * ETA: I finally figured out what the "anonymous IP" lingo stands for here. In the world of the message boards I frequent, an "anonymous IP"--that is a disguised/undetectable IP--is used by someone in order to troll, that is, disrupt the conversations.  I realize now that here it simply means someone who is identified only by their IP.

 * Jmh123 9 July 2005 08:05 (UTC)

Katefan said, "Pro delete: Miklos Szabo and Marie Lavaux, who are both new users (and have suspiciously similar talk page habits)."

Did it ever occur to you, Katefan, that more than one person shares similar views? You know, kind of like how you and Hermoine, and every other person on this page who is advocating for keeping Openly Clay linked? One could presume you are all the same person, since you all have the exact same agenda and use the same tired arguments.

What it boils down to is that you are going to strong-arm your belief that Clay is gay down everyone's throats, and woe to the person who tries to defend what HE HIMSELF has stated! You all think you are so much more informed of his preferences than he is. It's hard to take the views of a group of women on the OC who are mostly psychotic, suicidal, come from broken homes, and want everyone they admire to be gay over a man that has done so much to try and show LOVE to people. That is a concept that none of you and your fellow agenda-pushers seem to understand.

Are all of you so horribly insecure that you need validation from others to hold onto your beliefs? Can you not feel good about yourselves in any way, shape, or form unless you bring someone else down to your level and recruit more yes-men?

You have yet to explain why the unfounded rumors about Clay have been included in your website. They have no bearing on Clay as a person. He didn't start them, and has denied them. Yet, you feel the compelling need to not only "inform" your readers about malicious gossip, but to link to a whole website that does nothing but further this approach.

You can try to explain it any way you like, but it makes you no better than the other mudslingers. I hope this has made you feel better about yourselves as human beings.

User:Marie Lavaux 8 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Read No personal attacks. I am not a "psychotic, suicidal…horribly insecure" woman who comes from a "broken home" and wants "everyone [I] admire to be gay". Neither am I a member of Openly Clay. I will admit I have been taking the word of Katefan and MatthewUND about Openly Clay's contents over yours and Miklos Szabo's, because they have exhibited more logical and cool-headed behavior than you and Miklos have. There has been an RfC, RfPP, and 3RR violation posted about this page already. I don't know what else there is to do.

 * Neither I, nor Katefan0, nor MatthewUND have "recruited" each other; we are all simply concerned editors, and we are absolutely not the same person. A check on our contribs will show a vastly different swath of interests; a check on our IPs would most likely reveal they are completely different. I am tired of your and Miklos' constant attacks on my and Katefan's integrity. You see us as "pushing an agenda"; we see you as biased and antagonistic (or I do, anyway; I won't speak for Katefan). There seems to be no compromise here. Hermione1980 9 July 2005 00:17 (UTC)

I was accused of being the same person as another poster. See how you like it, Hermoine. I didn't appreciate the attack on MY integrity, either.

As for your opinion, I couldn't care less. You are NOT concerned editors. You are agenda-pushers. If you aren't, then please answer my question about why it's so all-fired important to you to post mudslinging gossip about someone in your articles and link to a site that does nothing but more of the same. Until you can answer it - without the tired rhetoric about "not wanting to censor," you are going to continue to look like you have an ax to grind - whether you like it or not.

User:Marie Lavaux 8 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I have pleaded with you to go look for yourself, Hermione. The admins are now madly hiding and password protecting forums. How can you engage in this debate un-informed? It boggles the mind! What you are seeing is frustration that nobody will listen or investigate. Its maddening!

 * Miklos Szabo 9 July 2005 00:33 (UTC)

 * I don't think these personal attacks are helping our case one iota, but I'm sorry that everyone who argues against the link to the OC is now regarded as suspect. I do wish our voices were being heard.  I sympathize, Miklos.  I think your voice is passionate, but I haven't seen you attacking anyone except the OC itself.  Your depiction has been reasonably accurate to the best of my knowledge (haven't been there in months).  I guess it's too late now.

 * Jmh123 9 July 2005 01:21 (UTC)

Back to most records sold
BTW, Clay has still sold more CDs than Kelly at this point in time. His first full CD is over 2.7 million, his Christmas CD is over 1 million (certified platinum), his first single is over 1 million (certified platinum) and his single The Way/Solitaire sold over 350,000, which means over 5 million total so far. Kelly has sold about 4.7 million. My math says that means Clay is still the best selling. He is also the most successful in all aspects of Entertainment, not just radio. He has multi-platinum sales, more TV appearances and requests, more concert appearances and higher sales in tickets and money than any other idol. He is the only one to host his own show, of which he was an executive producer. He has written a best selling book. He has a hugely successful foundation that he started---that is getting major recognition from corporations and the US government. He is an internationally known Unicef Ambassador. He is becoming a much sought after keynote speaker on the education and humantarian circuits, with numerous appearances in the last 2 years---Caregivers, NEA, Pac Rim, Disney Teacher Awards, Toys for Tots, Unicef, and government agencies. I don't know how you measure success here, but he has it in spades over anyone else from AI. I think he is more successful than just someone on the radio, who has only to this point, been a singer and written a few songs.

AIFan

 * You are counting singles for Clay but not for Kelly, hardly fair. Kelly's article has her selling 4.7 million albums and 3.4 million singles, for a total of 8.1 million records, well more than Clay's 5 million.   Wasted Time R 8 July 2005 01:11 (UTC)

 * 3.4 million singles is impossible. RCA only released one physical single CD for Kelly. "A Moment Like This" Her total sales were well under a million. If someone is counting digital downloads of songs they don't count as single sales. Her only single was never released as a download. Clay had 2 physical singles. "This is the night/Bridge Over Troubled Water" sold just over a million and "The Way/Solitaire" sold 383,000 or so. She may have pulled ahead but not by much. His Sophomore Album will be out in Sept/Oct. Then he'll take the lead again while she goes into her own down cycle to prepare for her next CD. Its all cyclical and Kelly is 7 months ahead. Let's see how they stack up 7 months from now.

I notice that her radio singles are listed as platinum and 2x or 3x platinum in Canada. Do you realize that it only takes 10 thousand to reach platinum in Canada for a single? so 3x platinum is only 30 thousand and digital downloads of radio singles don't count.

User:Miklos Szabo7 July 2005

 * Since when don't paid digital downloads count as sales? They should; the Billboard chart uses them as part of their calcuations.  45s, cassette singles, CD singles, downloads, all just different technologies for delivering a single song.  That said, http://www.billboard.com/bb/charts/hot100.jsp shows a platinum single as having 200,000 paid downloads, so Kelly's two most recent (which are single and triple platinum) are 200,000 and 600,000.  The Kelly article may be thinking that platinum singles are a million downloads, which is inflating their singles calculations.

 * As to the larger point, you are right about cyclical releases and leapfrogging. Which is why it's silly for an encyclopedia to try to keep track of whether A or B has sold more records.  All these AI position claims should be removed from the articles.

 * As to the even larger point, who cares who has the most sales? There's room enough for both of them in the music world.   Wasted Time R 8 July 2005 03:03 (UTC)

title: Talk:Clay Aiken/Archive 2