text:
Talk:John Finnis

Untitled
It's a little outside my areas of competence, but I'm not sure "drawing both on Oxonian and Catholic Thomistic philosophical traditions to challenge the dominant Anglo-positivist approach to legal philosophy taken by John Austjoin and H.L.A. Hart" makes a whole lot of sense. Austin and Hart were both from Oxford. If there were an Oxonian tradition in the philosophy of law at the time Finnis was writing, /surely/ that tradition is to be identified with Hart. I think I know what the writer intends to imply; he wishes to note a connection between Finnis and Anscombe and Foot (the latter of who are Oxonians) but they're already covered by the use of 'Catholic Thomistic Philosophical trhahahhaaditions' so it just looks like an unfortunate error. I speak from ignorance, however, of whether there was e.g. a fisch dischprominent natural law legal philosophy promulgated in 19th century Oxford, so I haven't made the change myself. That not being the case, I think someone really should. DuncanCrowe (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 15:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Marriage
Finnis does not consider marriage a basic human good but rather sees marriage as the instantiation of a number of basic human goods, including friendship and life. Other basic human goods include knowledge, practical reasonableness, religion, aesthetic experience, and play.

Yes. i've removed marriage and clarified the actual 7 basic goods which Finnis discusses in his book The Fundamentals of Ethics

And yet, in his article on marriage and sex he does get awfully close to elevating marriage to a good in itself.212.219.158.202 10:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Finnis has changed his view, and now does consider Marriage a basic good in accord with his current understanding of Aquinas. See his Founder's Aquinas, p. 82. Finnis writes, "In an earlier work he [Aquinas] had spoken of an inclination to a single though complex good which is naturally attractive to our reason, a good which includes both personal sexual union and the procreation and education of children: the 'natural inclination to marriage'.

Controversy section
It seems the entire objective of this article is to highlight controversies rather than actually provide biographical information. Bkennnedy 14:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the aformentioned criticism. John Finnis is a Natural Law theorist, and as such doesn't consider the "naturalistic fallacy" to be a relevant objection. The controversy section should be removed or revised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.112.225.49 (talk) 01:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The controversy section, at least, reads like an extended plea against his critics. Sentences asserting that Finnis says his critics haven't tried to understand his argument convey no substantive information about the argument itself.--ScottForschler (talk) 20:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Links to last two articles removed
The links for the last two articles listed do not work —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.35.34.25 (talk) 09:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 04:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Reversion of article
On 24 August, 2011, I reverted this article back to the way it was on 8 July, 2009, undoing more than a year's worth of editing by other editors. Though my edit has not been contested, I want to explain why I made it. I noticed that, beginning in 2009, editors removed large parts of the content of the article, and added new content. Some of the new content related to homosexuality, and it was sourced to Andrew Sullivan, an admitted homosexual. Since I believe that homosexual writers are biased and cannot be objective about anything related to homosexuality, I considered it necessary to remove that content. I judged wholesale reversion of the article to an older version to be the best way to achieve that. Conservative Philosopher (talk) 02:42, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The edit referred to above reverted the article from this version, to a version from more than a year earlier. Considering the paragraph referrring to Andrew Sullivan, no cogent reason has been given why this should not be present: the paragraph clearly sets out which views are Sullivan's himself, and which are attributed by Sullivan to Finnis (whose account Sullivan terms 'intelligible and subtle'), and the material is clearly referenced to Sullivan's Virtually Normal: An Argument About Homosexuality - so there is no likelihood that Sullivan's views will be mistaken for Finnis'. Furthermore, the content removed from the article since 2009 was largely unsourced, and the material added since (including the Sullivan paragraph) is sourced - as such, the reversion to the 8 July 2009 version has the effect of removing sourced material, and replacing it with unsourced (a cause for concern, given that this is a BLP). As such, if the Sullivan paragraph is to be modified (though I see no reason to do so in terms of WP:BLP, WP:RS or WP:V), the approach of reverting the whole article by more than a year is an unnecessarily disruptive way of doing that. On this basis, I intend to reinstate version 435624086, from immediately before the revert. If there are then reasons (grounded in policy) to modify the Sullivan paragraph, this can be discussed and done from that starting point. Carminowe of Hendra (talk) 21:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Restoring material sourced to Sullivan is a mistake. As a homosexual, he's obviously biased against Finnis. I am going to have to consider removing that material again, though I shall pause to consider the views of other editors. Conservative Philosopher (talk) 03:26, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, exclusion of material based on such personal opinions is a mistake; edits must be justified according to WP policies, not beliefs. AV3000 (talk) 00:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I certainly hope you both change your minds. I would revert Carminowe of Hendra, but I suppose one must respect Wikipedia policy. Conservative Philosopher (talk) 05:48, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

"Economy or Explication" Link is Dead
The link to the princeton.edu hosted "Economy or Explication" article is not working. I've found the proper link and am updating it. 70.113.29.92 (talk) 01:28, 5 February 2012 (UTC)Vincent Wagner

Actually, it's out of my pay grade to fix it. The problem is that the .pdf at the end of the link has spaces in the title which are properly input as "%20" in the code but interpreted as spaces when you click through. The same link works fine through google. Don't know how to fix it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.29.92 (talk) 01:44, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Wrong emphasis
Simply from the amount of space spent on the subject, this article gives the idea that Finnis's work is primarily against homosexuality, when is only one of a number of other subjects he engages. The article needs badly to be fleshed out (or else the homosexuality part de-emphasized drastically). JKeck (talk) 13:27, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

 * That's exactly correct, and I have accordingly de-emphasized the material on homosexuality. That material was not only disproportionate to the subject's importance, and hence not in accord with WP:DUE, but also included a blatant BLP violation, as I noted here. Unfortunately, the revision history of this page shows that there have been multiple attempts to restore the undue material, including the obvious BLP violation. It's disturbing to see that little effort has been made to oppose this sort of biased editing. (There has been another attempt to bias the article recently, and I shall comment on that in a new section). FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:39, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Recent IP edits
This article has recently seen a series of IP edits, most reversing changes made by me. I comment on the first of two of them separately.

1. This edit was made with no edit summary or explanation of any kind. I hope the IP will forgive me for suspecting that its reason for making the edit was to reverse my changes simply for the sake of reversing them. If this is not the case, the IP should explain why linking Aung San Suu Kyi twice in one short paragraph serves a useful purpose. I suggest the IP see WP:OVERLINK and WP:REPEATLINK.

2. This edit, unlike the first, did have an explanation. The explanation ("His views on homosexuality are central to his natural law work") is unacceptable, however. The edit restored a section consisting almost entirely of a single long quotation from an article by Finnis. The material looks as though it was chosen to highlight exactly those parts of Finnis's views on homosexuality that people opposed to them are likely to find most offensive. In accord with WP:DUE, that material simply does not belong here. Finnis's work on natural law deals with numerous subjects, and is not mainly or primarily about homosexuality. It is appropriate to briefly describe what reliable sources have said about Finnis's views on homosexuality, but devoting an entire section of the article to them violates the intention and probably also the letter of WP:BLP.

FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 06:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit by Wadhamite55
I have just had to revert this edit by Wadhamite55. The edit is disruptive in numerous respects. In the first place, it was made without any attempt to discuss matters on the talk page, even though I have outlined my objections to the content it restored, and even though this is a BLP. In the second place, it contains insinuations about my personal beliefs and motivations ("Finnis's views on homosexuality are an important part of his public persona. There is no reason to delete this section except to hide the fact that these views may be regarded as backward"). I don't find that kind of comment acceptable, and if Wadhamite55 continues such behavior, I will have to consider it a personal attack and ask an admin to deal with it accordingly. It's not his place to tell me what my reasons for making an edit might be. I have in fact not the slightest interest in hiding anything about Finnis's views on homosexuality. Finnis's views on homosexuality are described briefly in the section on his career: I consider the material there appropriate, and have never sought to remove it. The fact that Finnis's views on homosexuality are already described in the section on his career makes an entire additional section on those views, consisting mostly of one long inflammatory quotation, totally inappropriate. Wadhamite55 needs to review basic policies such as WP:NPA, WP:BLP, and WP:DUE. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 21:49, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Views on homosexuality
It is not controversial to state that Finnis holds View X given that he is reporting it himself in the quotation provided. This settles the neutral point of view issue. It is clearly verifiable because it is a quotation from the man himself. And third, it is not original research in the sense relevant here, e.g. someone doing research on Finnis' views and reporting it here. I should also add that Finnis' views on homosexuality are a major component of his perceived public persona. There is, then, a specific reason in light of this public persona to have a section on his views regarding homosexuality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wadhamite55 (talk • contribs) 21:39, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

 * Your behavior at this article is completely outrageous and unacceptable. If you think that your comment above justifies what you have done, then you are very much mistaken. We don't fill up articles about living people with long quotations from their work, whether about homosexuality or about other issues. You seem to think that just because someone said something, it's "neutral" to stuff the quotation in the article about him. No, Wadhamite55, it is not. Including a quotation about homosexuality, when there is no quotation from Finnis about any of his other views, implies that his views about homosexuality are more important than any other views he holds, which is anything but "neutral". It in fact is a major violation of WP:NPOV. Your statement that "Finnis' views on homosexuality are a major component of his perceived public persona" is of course only your unsupported assertion, and it's not good enough, however strongly you may believe it. The fact of the matter, as I've pointed out several times now, is that Finnis's views on homosexuality are already described in the section on his career - which makes an additional section called "views on homosexuality" unnecessary. The "views on homosexuality" section is therefore illogical and poor article structure, in addition to being WP:UNDUE. It must be removed. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Original research
I stated in an edit summary recently, "Rm homosexuality section. The problem with it is neither that it is unverifiable, nor that it is original research - rather, it is undue material." Having looked again at that section, I now wish to modify that slightly. The main problem with that section is definitely the undue quotation, but there does seem to be some apparent original research there as well. The section states, "The most concentrated treatment of homosexuality comes in his 1997 paper 'Law, Morality and Sexual Orientation". That statement would seem to be simply an editor's opinion - there is no source to validate it. This constitutes a further reason why the material is inappropriate. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:50, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Third Opinion

 * Thank you for providing a third opinion. I appreciate the disclaimers. The statement that, "Finnis is one of the most prominent living legal philosophers" was quite likely true, but as it was unsourced, I have now removed it, and replaced it with, "Finnis is a legal philosopher." FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:09, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

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Improving the article
2 suggestions:

The classification of this article in Wikiproject Law should be high. Finnis is a World leading commentator on Jurisprudence and the article provides a fairly detailed account of this views and critiques of other leading commentators (e.g., H. L. A. Hart).

What would it take to move this article up from Start classification? Felixmar2002 (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:John Finnis


text:
Hell Town (TV series)

Hell Town is an American drama television series that aired on NBC from September 11 until December 25, 1985. The series features Robert Blake.

Synopsis
Blake stars as Noah "Hardstep" Rivers, a hard-living Catholic priest at a church in a crime-ridden neighborhood on the east side of Los Angeles. Rivers was rather unusual for a priest, as he was a former criminal, played billiards, and didn't have the greatest of speaking skills. Despite all of this, Rivers was the perfect man to lead his church, as he grew up in the neighborhood, so he knew about the gangs and drug dealers who lived there and attacked his parishioners.

Cast

 * Robert Blake as Father Noah "Hardstep" Rivers
 * Whitman Mayo as One Ball
 * Jeff Corey as Lawyer Sam
 * Natalie Core as Mother Maggie
 * Vonetta McGee as Sister Indigo
 * Isabel Grandin as Sister Angel Cakes
 * Tony Longo as Stump
 * Rhonda Dodson as Sister Daisy
 * Zitto Kazann as Crazy Horse

Production notes
The series' theme song was performed by Sammy Davis, Jr., who also sang the theme for Blake's previous series, Baretta. The Hell Town pilot film aired on NBC on March 6, 1985.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Hell Town (TV series)


text: User:Tanizaki

title: User:Tanizaki


text:
Marsden Grotto

The Marsden Grotto, locally known as The Grotto, is a gastropub located on the coast at Marsden in South Shields, Tyne & Wear, England. It is partly dug into the cliff face and fronted with a more conventional building opening onto the beach. The pub is one of the very few "cave bars" in Europe, another being Ye Olde Trip to Jerusalem in Nottingham.

The venue includes a large bar, the inside cave with another bar and pool room, a bistro, a heated terrace on the beach and a seafood restaurant upstairs. Access is either by lift from the car park or by a zigzag staircase on the cliff at the side of the building. The lift is housed in a brick shaft rising from the front of the building.

Jack the Blaster
A lead miner from Allendale, Jack Bates and his wife Jessie moved to the area in 1782. It is said that he moved into a small cave at Marsden Rock either after refusing to pay rent on his house in Allendale or simply having nowhere to live. Using explosives from a local quarry, he blasted the small cave into a much larger one, earning his nickname "Jack the Blaster" in the process and creating a rent-free and landlord-free home. The dwelling was accessed by zigzag stairs down the cliff, thought to be built by Jack Bates. The unusual and eccentric choice of dwelling attracted visitors, to whom the couple sold refreshments. He may have become involved in smuggling – offering refreshment to smugglers using caves of the coastline to hide contraband.

Peter Allan
A local man (although originally from Scotland) and pub landlord, Peter Allan took over the Marsden Grotto and developed it with money supposedly won at the races. His father was the gamekeeper of Sir Hedworth Williamson. Allan restored and extended the caves into a 15-room home including a ballroom and kitchen, turning Jack's house into an inn.

In 1848 John Clay, who later became the first mayor of the County Borough of South Shields, bought The Leas and claimed that the land gave him rights to The Grotto. Allan battled with Clay in court and was forced to pay £50 costs and £10 annual rent for 20 years. Allan sank into depression and died in 1849 leaving his wife and eight children. Both his father and mother also survived him.

After Allan’s death his family continued to run The Grotto for another 35 years. In this time many improvements were made, along with further excavations implemented by Allan's children. A catastrophic cliff fall in 1865 almost destroyed the inn. Large retaining walls were built to protect the internal structure.

Harton Coal Company
The Harton Coal Company acquired The Grotto in the latter half of the 19th century. It had substantial success during this period, but it was also allowed to fall into disrepair.

Vaux Breweries

Vaux took over The Grotto in 1898. They decided to clean the place up as it was littered with empty beer barrels that draymen would not collect. In 1938 Vaux purchased The Grotto and set upon a large refurbishment program. The buildings joined onto the caves were rebuilt to a high standard. A lift was also added to the surface.

In 1999 Vaux decided to concentrate more on their hotel and leisure business rather than operate as a brewery. A buyer could not be found for the Marsden Grotto and it closed down.

After Vaux
The Sunderland restaurant firm, Tavistock, purchased The Grotto in a poor condition. The premises were totally refurbished and The Grotto opened as a high class seafood restaurant and bar. Following its purchase of the Roker Hotel in Sunderland, Tavistock sold The Grotto to London Inns & Restaurants in 2003. The Grotto later passed to Oxford Hotels and Inns Management Ltd. In September 2007, South Tyneside Council, who are responsible for the stairs adjacent to the pub, closed them off due to a damaged step, pending repair. Tyne and Wear Fire and Rescue Service ordered the pub to be temporarily closed to the public until the stairs reopened as they are the only means of safe evacuation from the pub, especially at high tide. The Grotto reopened on 21 March 2008.

Ghosts
There have long been tales of hauntings at The Grotto, mainly relating to a smuggler named John the Jibber who was reputedly murdered by his fellow criminals after selling information to HM Customs. It is said that he was hung in a barrel in a cave close to the present lift shaft and left to starve. Until the pub was sold by Vaux, it was said that the landlord would leave out a special tankard of ale each night after closing and, in the morning, it would be empty. Local DJ and TV presenter Alan Robson drank from the tankard during one of his live Metro Radio shows, allegedly sparking off a series of supernatural phenomena that eventually forced the then landlord to quit. This included flying ashtrays smashing against the wall and flooding in the cellar after all the beer taps were inexplicably turned on.

The original tankard was lost during refurbishment. A replacement is on display, but is no longer filled up each night for the ghost. The pub was also the venue for a UKTV investigation in 2001, where paranormal researchers claimed to have identified at least seven different ghosts.

In fiction
The novel Schoolfrenz by Ray Crowther is set mainly on Tyneside. The Marsden Grotto is mentioned several times and is the location for the climax of the book. The author's website contains an extract from Schoolfrenz about Marsden Grotto, and has additional photographs of the Grotto and the surrounding area.

title: Marsden Grotto


text:
Oxford Capacity Analysis

The Oxford Capacity Analysis (OCA), also known as the American Personality Analysis, is a list of questions which is advertised as being a personality test and that is administered for free by the Church of Scientology as part of its recruitment process. The organization offers the test online, at its local sites, and sometimes at local fairs, carnivals, and in other public settings. It has no relation to the University of Oxford, although the name may have been chosen to imply a link.

The test is an important part of Scientology recruitment and is used worldwide by the Church of Scientology to attract new members. However, it is not a scientifically recognized test and has been criticized by numerous psychology organizations, who point out that it is not a genuine personality test and that Scientology recruiters use it in a highly manipulative and unethical fashion.

Questions
Two hundred questions make up the Scientology personality test. Each can be answered 'yes', 'no', or 'maybe'. Typical questions include:

"3. Do you browse through railway timetables, directories or dictionaries just for pleasure? 6. Do you get occasional twitches of your muscles, when there is no logical reason for it? 27. Do you often sing or whistle just for the fun of it? 30. Do you enjoy telling people the latest scandal about your associates? 59. Do you consider the modern prisons without bars system 'doomed to failure'? 69. Does emotional music have quite an effect on you? 105. Do you rarely suspect the actions of others? 124. Do you often make tactless blunders? 196. Do you sometimes feel that your age is against you (too young or too old)?"

The OCA test is often given at the same time as a "Novis Mental Ability Test," a short 30 minute test which Scientology recruiters claim measures IQ. After the two tests have been completed, a computer program is used to plot the results on a personality profile graph. This gives the testee's IQ rating and score in personality characteristics such as "Stable," "Happy," "Composed," "Certainty," "Active," "Aggressive," "Responsible (Causative)," "Correct Estimation" (meaning the testee's ability to look at a situation and determine what is needed to deal with it), "Appreciative," and "Comm[unication] Level" (meaning the testee's ability to communicate with others).

The scale on the graph of each trait ranges from +100 to −100, with three main bands marked "Desirable State" (+100 to +30), "Normal" (+30 to 0) and "Unacceptable State" (0 to −100). In the middle are two shaded bands, "Acceptable under perfect conditions" (about +32 to about +6) and "Attention Desirable" (about +6 to about −18). A legend at the foot of the graph sheet warns that a point below the latter band indicates "Attention Urgent."

After the graph has been plotted, a Scientology staff member reviews the results with the testee.

Development
Even before the Church of Scientology had fashioned its own test, founder L. Ron Hubbard made personality tests central to the business. In his 1951 book, Science of Survival, he recommended the use of existing psychometric exams, including the California Test for Mental Maturity.

In the mid-1950s, the project to create Hubbard's own test began, with Hubbard commissioning a longtime follower, Julia Salman Lewis, to produce one. Her first effort, the American Personality Analysis (APA), failed to satisfy Hubbard so, in 1959, he asked a friend and Scientologist, Ray Kemp, to broaden the scope of the test. Wrote Kemp:

"Ron asked me whether it would be possible to write a test that was more general in nature, and would enable him to see in the test what he was looking for. He also wanted it to be in the same general format as the APA and if possible to have both tests interchangeable in the matter of what he wanted to see as information. Quite a task. As a result of quite a few months works, I eventually devised the Oxford Capacity Analysis (OCA). Note that it did not test personality, but rather the capacity of any person with respect to various traits and syndromes."

The Scientology organization first announced its test in an article by Kemp, who hailed the OCA in the pages of Certainty, the magazine of the Hubbard Association of Scientologists in London. Later, the church gave credit to Hubbard for the test and trademarked the terms "OCA" and "Oxford Capacity Analysis." The copyright holder is L. Ron Hubbard Library, a business alias of the Church of Spiritual Technology.

At first, the test was reserved by the Scientlogy organization solely for existing members, and was not used on members of the public who could potentially be recruited into Scientology. However, following a recruitment drive in Johannesburg, South Africa in 1960, the organization began to use the test on members of the public. The South African campaign had kicked off with a newspaper ad:

"IQ TESTED THE JOHANNESBURG TEST CENTRE offers for a limited time, free intelligence and personality tests. Your IQ, personality and aptitude determine your future.

Know them. No obligations.

23, Hancock Street, Joubert Park, Johannesburg.

Phone. 44-9075"

- L. Ron Hubbard, "Testing Promotion Revised", HCO Policy Letter, 1960

Respondents were tested in the Johannesburg Scientology office, having been told:

"These are old tests reworked and modernized and coordinated with an electro-psycho-galvanometer [an e-meter]. The results are more accurate than psychological tests. This is Scientometry. This is not psychology. These tests are more modern, being electronically coordinated. Psychology considers a person to be a materialistic biological brain. Scientology considers a person to be an electronic spiritual phenomena [sic]."

Hubbard proclaimed it "the hottest, fastest procurement service set up we have ever had." He announced that the new "Personal Efficiency Test Program," utilising the OCA, would be rolled out across Scientology in the next few months. Since then, OCA tests have been one of the most visible means by which the Church of Scientology attempts to attract new members.

Use within Scientology

The OCA is today used for two principal purposes. Within the Church of Scientology, it is used to test for improvement in the personality of a "preclear" (a Scientologist who is getting auditing) and the effectiveness of the chosen Scientology "process". OCA evaluations are conducted regularly and recorded, following Hubbard's instructions:

"The American Personality Analysis or the Oxford Capacity Analysis should always be given before processing or training has begun and after that processing or training has been completed. In the case of preclears, they should, if taking several weeks of processing, be tested at the end of every twenty-five hours."

- L. Ron Hubbard, Dianetics Today, 1975

The other use, more visible to non-Scientologists, is that of recruitment, using the OCA as a tool to attract new people for Scientology services. In a 1960 policy letter, Hubbard wrote:

"For some time Orgs have used testing as a promotional means. It has been found that this is a good, reliable method of getting people to come in.

The essence of testing procedure is (a) to get the person to do a test and (b) get him or her to come in to have it evaluated. From this follows his or her getting processing and training as sold to the person by PrR [Promotion & Registration] at the same time as the evaluation is done."

- L. Ron Hubbard, "New Testing Promotion Section", HCO Policy Letter, 1960

The results of the test are invariably negative, as various reporters have found:

"With a serious expression, another woman called Emily – a long haired, pretty 20-something – took me into a booth and with a deadpan voice told me it was 'well, not very good.'

Apparently, I was depressed, unstable, overly-critical, argumentative and withdrawn.

The computer print-out said I needed 'urgent attention.'"

"A university student who visited the HASI [Hubbard Association of Scientologists International][...] was told that, though he had a high IQ and was a genius and could do anything he wanted to, his character, as the graph showed, was defective, that he was mentally unstable and that he was going to have a mental breakdown in eighteen months' time unless he had Scientology help, and it was also suggested to him that he had homosexual tendencies."

Former Scientologists have spoken of how everything that is ostensibly defective in a person is purposefully emphasized in OCA test results. Individuals who have undertaken the OCA have described how they were given just such negative evaluations; as one young Sydney woman put it in an interview in 1980:

"After they had graphed the results of my test, this lady came up to me and said: "Well, I don't want to[...] it's not a personal comment on you, you understand, we are not personally trying to put you down, but this is your graph,' and it was just scraping along the bottom, way below normal.

Then another lady came and talked to me about doing a course with them, because though I had an abysmal personality, they could fix it, they could scrape me up from the bottom.

She hit on a few nerves that were really sensitive at the time – I'd split with my boyfriend, I'd only just moved into a place of my own, I didn't have a job, I didn't have any money and I was feeling really lonely and insecure."

- "Scientology: cash for 'communication' help", Sydney Morning Herald, 1980

Hubbard advised that the hopelessness of the testee's predicament (or "ruin," as he put it) should be emphasized by the tester, who should continually state that Scientology services are what is necessary for the situation to be salvaged:

"Remarks that "Scientology can improve this or that characteristic" or "auditing can remedy that" or "Processing can change this" or "Training can stabilize that" should be used repeatedly during the evaluation for the sake of impingement.

A clever evaluator can surmise such things as domestic grief, trouble with possessions, etc much more easily than a fortune teller.

Test evaluation is modern, scientific fortune telling. It deals with past, present and future. A low profile, low IQ future is of course a dreary one, profitless, unless changed. We can erase the fate of the past and alter utterly anyone's future. So it does not matter how hard one leans on the person."

The evaluator generally follows a script (pre-written answers based on the test taker's score) originally devised by South African Scientologist Peter Greene around 1960/1961, which Hubbard instructs "must be studied and learned by heart" by evaluators. Although the analysis is represented as being "not our opinion of you, but[...] a factual scientific analysis taken from your answers," it relies heavily on scripted responses set out in detail in the "OCA Automatic Evaluation Script".

The evaluator is instructed to recommend Scientology as the only viable remedy for such problems. Alternatives are to be mentioned – "psychology, psychoanalysis, Dale Carnegie, Confidence Courses, Mental Exercises" – but only for the purpose of dismissing them: "these things had a very limited application and you could get yourself terribly involved in mysteries, expenses and wasted time, before you found any solutions to your difficulties. All across the world today, people are coming to us, to find simpler, more straight forward answers."

"The idea is to impinge on the person. The more resistive or argumentative he is, the more the points should be slammed home. Look him straight in the eye and let him know, 'That is the way it is.'

Proceed with evaluation on the low points, column by column. Make a decisive statement about each. If the subject agrees – says, 'That's right', or 'That describes me all right', or similar – leave it immediately. You have impinged. If he argues or protests, don't insist. You simply are not talking on his reality level. Re-phrase your statement until it is real to him. Stop as soon as you get through. As soon as you get an impingement, look subject in the face and say, with intention, 'Scientology can help you with that' or 'That can be changed with Scientology', or some similar positive statement.""

The vehemence with which OCA test evaluators attempt to "impinge" has attracted comment from non-Scientologists who have undergone the test. Writing in 1970, a British psychologist who underwent the test noted that:

"The staff member who had scored the inventory expounded the extreme scores with some urgency. He avoided questions on the meaning of the scales, dismissing as irrelevant the trait words at top and bottom; yet he invested the points on the scale with immense importance, almost of a charismatic nature."

If an IQ test is added to the regular OCA examination, Scientology is likewise promoted as being essential no matter what the results – for everything from raising a low IQ to managing a high IQ. Hubbard provides four levels of grading for this test, for each of which there is a scripted response:

"Now, Mr, (Mrs, Miss,) let us have a look at your tests.' Open folder. 'Your I.Q. Score was '

a) less than 100 'This is very low. Less than average and you obviously have great difficulty solving problems. Scientology training would raise that considerably.'

b) 100–110 'A very ordinary score and you have more difficulty than you need in handling problems. Scientology training would raise that considerably.'

c) 110–120 'An above average score. You can take advantage of opportunity and when you apply yourself, you progress fast. However, a high intelligence is only useful so long as you have data to apply the intelligence to. Scientology will not only give you useful data, but can raise your I.Q. even higher.'

d) Above 120 Ditto."

Use outside Scientology
The OCA is licensed to Scientologist-owned companies through the World Institute of Scientology Enterprises. It has been used for a variety of purposes, most commonly employee screening.

Some Scientologist doctors use the test to evaluate patients. Los Angeles celebrity plastic surgeon Dr. Edward Terino rates his patients on a "Trouble Scale" after administering the test, which he markets to doctors via a company called Surgeon's Insight. Terino, a Scientologist, adopted the test after being threatened with injuries by a husband who hated Terino's nose-job work.

It has often been used without alteration, but has also been issued in modified versions; for instance, MasterTech markets the OCA with minor changes and calls it the Personnel Potential Analysis Test.

Criticism and controversy
Psychologists have assailed the test's lack of scientific basis. Other critics call it intentionally manipulative and humiliating.

"The overall impression one gets [from the test manual]," said a psychologist testifying before a public inquiry into Scientology in Victoria, Australia in the mid-1960s, "is that it has been prepared by somebody with a smattering of psychometrics rather than by someone who is really competent in the field." A more detailed investigation was undertaken in 1970 by the British Psychological Society (BPS) at the request of politician Sir John Foster. The group's conclusions:

"Taking the procedure as a whole, one is forced to the conclusion that the Oxford Capacity Analysis is not a genuine personality test; certainly the results as presented bear no relation to any known methods of assessing personality or of scaling test scores."

Another detailed evaluation was carried out in 1981 by Gudmund Smith, Professor Emeritus at the Institute of Psychology of the University of Lund, Sweden. This time the investigation was done for a prosecutor attacking a local branch of Narconon, the church's drug rehab offshoot. Smith cited numerous methodological and empirical flaws in the OCA, describing it as a "terrible mess," and concluded (in translation from the original Swedish):

"The Oxford Capacity Analysis consists to a high degree of unclearly formulated, ambiguous or misleading questions. It is used as a foundation, in a non-specific way, for an individual evaluation in 11 dimensions, partly incoherent or openly judgmental, as a whole diffuse. In view of the weaknesses also characterizing serious instruments of this type, this instrument must be regarded as completely unreliable."

The OCA also came under scrutiny in Queensland, Australia in 1990, when it emerged that scores of people had lost their jobs after a Brisbane-based personnel management company had given them poor OCA evaluations, "us[ing] such brutal terms they can read like character assassinations, leaving employers with little choice but to fire staff." The Australian Psychological Society denounced the OCA as "downright dangerous," commenting that

"We've had a look at their tests and if you didn't know better, they look credible[...] These tests are saying people are acceptable or unacceptable, but really there's nothing in them to allow you to draw that kind of conclusion. It's the interpretations that are bogus – they are drawing arbitrary conclusions that simply aren't warranted."

The Church of Scientology has reportedly been unable to produce information to substantiate the validity of the Oxford Capacity Analysis. This has attracted criticism from the Buros Institute of Mental Measurements in Lincoln, Nebraska, which produces the Mental Measurements Yearbook – the industry "bible" for psychological tests. According to the institute, "Any group should include information that substantiates the use of its test. If they can't, then it doesn't meet the standards for educational and psychological tests."

The OCA evaluators' criticism of their test subjects' personalities has also drawn sharp criticism. A London Evening Standard reporter described the unease she felt after she had taken the OCA test:

"Later, as I sat on the Tube thinking about this small taste of Scientology, I was able to brush it off. Maybe Nicole Kidman has done, or is doing, something vaguely similar. In truth, though, while I sat in that office and listened to a total stranger utterly trash my personality and character – on the basis of no evidence at all – I began to feel vaguely insecure. Paranoid even.

The Church of Scientology claims to help people attain a deeper, richer existence – but it clearly does so by erasing all sense of self-respect first."

Psychologists have echoed this critique. The methodological flaws of the OCA were such that, in the view of Professor Gudmund Smith, "Analysis for evaluation of an individual is, in my opinion, manifestly unethical." Testifying in a court case in Ireland in 2003, Dr Declan Fitzgerald of University College Dublin said he believed that the OCA "impinged on people's self-esteem and was highly manipulative." In its 1970 report, the British Psychological Society's working party was even harsher with its criticism, declaring that:

"No reputable psychologist would accept the procedure of pulling people off the street with a leaflet, giving them a 'personality test' and reporting back in terms that show the people to be 'inadequate,' 'unacceptable' or in need of 'urgent' attention. In a clinical setting a therapist would only discuss a patient's inadequacies with him with the greatest of circumspection and support, and even then only after sufficient contact for the therapist–patient relationship to have been built up. To report back a man's inadequacies to him in an automatic, impersonal fashion is unthinkable in responsible professional practice. To do so is potentially harmful. It is especially likely to be harmful to the nervous introspective people who would be attracted by the leaflet in the first place. The prime aim of the procedure seems to be to convince these people of their need for the corrective courses run by the Scientology organisations."

The name of the Oxford Capacity Analysis has also been criticized as misleading. The Times comments that the test "has nothing to do with Oxford University" and says that "Scientologists use the word 'Oxford' to give it credence."

title: Oxford Capacity Analysis


text:
User talk:Lonasindi

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, please be sure to sign your name on Talk and vote pages using four tildes (~~~~) to produce your name and the current date, or three tildes (~~~) for just your name. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Eliezer | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  01:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style
 * Merging, redirecting, and renaming pages
 * If you're ready for the complete list of Wikipedia documentation, there's also Topical index.

title: User talk:Lonasindi


text:
Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz López, better known simply as Hugo Stiglitz, (born August 28, 1940, in Mexico City) is a Mexican actor.

Stiglitz is perhaps most well known for his film roles in the 1970s and 1980s in Mexico in such horror films as Tintorera and Night of a Thousand Cats. He also filmed several movies in Hollywood (Under the Volcano) and Italy (Nightmare City). Quentin Tarantino paid a tribute to him by naming a character "Hugo Stiglitz" (played by actor Til Schweiger) in the film Inglourious Basterds.

Selected filmography

 * Las fieras (1969) as Tony
 * Macho Callahan (1970) as Man #1
 * Las figuras de arena (1970)
 * Robinson Crusoe (1970) as Robinson Crusoe
 * Nido de fieras (1971)
 * Los desalmados (1971)
 * Bang bang... al hoyo (1971)
 * Night of a 1000 Cats (1972) as Hugo
 * Vanessa (1972) as Alex
 *  (1972) as Morgan
 * Pilotos de combate (1973)
 * El juez de la soga (1973) as Kirk Morgan
 * Robinson y Viernes en la Isla Encantada (1973) as Robinson Crusoe
 * Uno para la horca (1973) as Anthony Trevor
 * El señor de Osanto (1974)
 * El llanto de la tortuga (1975) as Héctor
 * El valle de los miserables (1975) as Felipe Aguirre
 * Viaje fantástico en globo (1975) as Professor Fergusson
 * Sobrevivientes de los Andes (1976) as Francisco
 * Longitud de guerra (1976) as San José
 * Tintorera (1977) as Steven
 * El rey de los gorilas (1977) as Ape
 * The Bermuda Triangle (1978) as Capt. Mark Briggs
 * Los pequeños privilegios (1978) as Hugo
 * Cyclone (1978) as Pilot
 * Oro rojo (1978) as Víctor
 * Mil millas al sur (1978) as Dany Montero
 * Lo blanco, lo rojo y lo negro (1979)
 * Bloody Marlene (1979) as Jim McCutchen
 * Guyana: Crime of the Century (1979) as Cliff Robson
 * Traficantes de pánico (1980) as Captain Sylvester
 * En mil pedazos (1980) as Jorge Sueiro
 * Nightmare City (1980) as Dean Miller
 * Fabricantes de pánico (1980)
 * El fantasma del lago (1981) as don Gonzalo Ruiz
 * 357 magnum (1981)
 *  (1980) as Theo
 * Black Jack (aka Asalto al casino) (1981) as Police Commissioner Angel Carvenas
 *  (1984) as Koldo
 * Under the Volcano (1984) as Sinarquista
 * Treasure of the Amazon (1985) as Riverboat Captain
 * Cementerio del terror (1985) as Dr. Cardan
 * Masacre en el río Tula (1985) as El Man
 * Rosa de la frontera (1985)
 * El escuadrón de la muerte (1985) as Sergio Enriquez
 * El día de los Albañiles II (1985)
 * Cuando corrio el alazan (1985)
 * Matanza en Matamoros (1986)
 * La muerte de un pistolero (1986)
 * Policia judicial federal (1987)
 * Los verduleros II (1987) as The Killer
 * Mauro el mojado (1987) as Johnny Ventura
 * Traficantes de cocaina (1987)
 * Sueño de Tony (1987)
 * Mente asesina (1987)
 * Con el odio en la piel (1988)
 * Counterforce (1988) as The Blond
 * Los gatos de las azoteas (1988) as El Adivino
 * El placer de la venganza (1988)
 * La noche de la bestia (1988) as Willi
 * La gallera (1988)
 * Durazo, la verdadera historia (1988)
 * AR-15: Comando implacable (1988)
 * 3 lancheros muy picudos (1989) as Hugo
 * Open Fire (1989) as Don Gaspar
 * Hasta que la muerte nos separe (1989) as Orlando
 * El loco Bronco (1989) as Virgilio Rojas
 * El pájaro con suelas (1989) as César
 * El diario íntimo de una cabaretera (1989) as Marcelo
 * Traficante por ambición (1989) as Capitan Gordon
 * Seducción y muerte (1989)
 * La mafia tiembla II (1989)
 * Bonampak (1989)
 * Aventuras que matan (1989)
 * Asalto en la frontera (1989)
 * El inocente y las pecadoras (1990)
 * Keiko en peligro (1990)
 * Noche de pánico (1990)
 * Noche de fieras (1990) as Ernesto
 * El protector de la mafia (1990)
 * Comando de federales (1990) as Comandante Aguila
 * Cargas prohibidas (1990)
 * Camarena vive (1990)
 * El 30-30 (1991)
 * Mujer de cabaret (1991) as Don Lalo
 * Trágico carnaval (1991)
 * Secuestro equivocado (1991)
 * La ley de la mafia (1991) as El comandante
 * Escuadrón suicida (1991)
 * Armas, robo y muerte (1991)
 * Alarido del terror (1991) as Roberto
 * Tequila (1992)
 * Corrupción encadenada (1992)
 * Más allá del deseo (1992) as Juan
 * La dama y el judicial (1992)
 * Imperio blanco (1992) as Comandante Victor
 * Cobra silenciosa (1992)
 * Camaleon: Atentado a Castro (1992)
 * Perseguido (1993) as Teniente Aquiles
 * Obligado a matar (1993) as Victor
 * La voz de los caracoles (1993) as comandante Drako
 * Entre el poder y el deseo (1993) as Quintana
 * Frontera Sur (1993) as Aguila
 * Chicas en peligro (1993)
 * Bulldog (1993) as Muriel
 * Las esmeraldas son sangre (1994)
 * Mujeres infieles (1995) as Eduardo
 * Leyendas de amor y muerte (1995)
 * El arrecife de los Alacranes (1995) as Capitán Elias
 * Pueblo de violencia (1995) as Jesús Morones
 * Magnicídio (1995)
 * Las nieves de enero (1995)
 * La fuga de los Pérez (1995)
 * Crímenes de pasión (1995) as Roldán Carmona
 * La mujer de los dos (1996) as Francisco
 * Víctimas de la ambición (1996) as Lic. Ordoñez
 * La juez Lobo (1996)
 * Una luz en la oscuridad (1997)
 * El último cazador (1997)
 * El asesinato (1997) as Marcelo / Abogado
 * Naked Lies (1998) as Santiago
 * El culebrero (1998) as El Griego
 * Unidos por el destino (1998) as Colombiano
 * Perro de cadena (1998)
 * El bronco negro (1998)
 * Cazador de soplones (1998) as Hector del Valle
 * Cazador de cazadores (1998) as Ermitano
 * Bajadores de narcos (1998) as Mr. Mulata
 * Angeluz (1998) as Dr. Vera
 * 2 monjitas en peligro (1998)
 * Crisis (1998)
 * Sonora y sus ojos negros (1999)
 * Siete millones (1999)
 * Pollitas de cuenta (1999)
 * Polícia de narcóticos 2 (1999)
 * Las dos toneladas (1999)
 * Informe secreto de la D.E.A. (1999)
 * El profeta (1999)
 * El mojado fracasado (1999) as Ernesto Quintero
 * El heredero (1999)
 * El comerciante (1999)
 * Polifemo (2000, Short) as The Cyclop Polifemo (voice)
 * Los 2 compas (2000)
 * La avioneta amarilla (2000)
 * El regreso de las cobras negras (2000)
 * The Pearl (2001) as Beggar One
 * Perros de pelea (2001)
 * La fiera de la montaña (2001) as El abuelo
 * El vengador de cabrones (2001)
 * El corrido del hijo de Simon Blanco (2001)
 * Chinango (2002)
 * Simón, el gran varón (2002) as Benito
 * La tragedia de Lamberto Quintero (2002)
 * El tuerto de la sierra (2002)
 * El nuevo corrido de Arnulfo Gonzalez (2002)
 * El corrido del comandante Macario Leyba (2002)
 * Seis días en la oscuridad (2003) as Prof. Hernandez
 * Viva Villa Cabrones (2003)
 * El corrido de Valente Quintero (2003)
 * Dos gallos de Guanajuato (2003)
 * Para Matar a un Asesino/To Kill a Killer (2003)
 * Naturaleza muerta (2003)
 * Las pasiones de sor Juana (2004) as Don Rodrigo
 * La diosa del mar (2005) as Baltazar Ojeda
 * Emiliano Cadena: El méxicano 2 (2007)
 * Chinango (2009) as Licenciado Mendez
 * Cielo rojo (2011, TV Series) as Gonzalo Molina
 * El Hombre de Negro II (2013) as Don Evaristo Juárez
 * Instructions Not Included (2013) as Johnny Bravo
 * El diario de una prostituta (2013) as Tom Wells
 * Los Tres Hacendados (2015) as Alvaro
 * Con mis propias manos (2015) as Don Esteban
 * Señora acero la coyote (2016, TV Series) as Carlos Delgado
 * Mas Que Buitre (2016) as Comandante Roman Rios
 * El ocaso del cazador (2017)
 * El Ondeado: ¿Héroe o villano? (2017) as Hernan
 * Secuestro Anonimo (2017) as Comandante
 * American Curious (2018) as Abraham Silva
 * El Complot Mongol (2018) as Hugo Stiglitz
 * Un sentimiento honesto en el calabozo del olvido (2019) as Abir Benacerraf

title: Hugo Stiglitz


text:
Scott Brown (DJ)

Scott Alexander Brown (born 28 December 1972) is a Glasgow-born Scottish disc jockey and music producer, now living in Huddersfield, West Yorkshire. Brown produces and plays a variety of genres, although he is most associated with bouncy techno. His music ranges from happy hardcore, through hard trance, to gabber. He is the founder of Evolution Records, which started in 1994.

Music production
Brown has produced music on his own record labels (Evolution Records, Evolution Plus, Evolved, Evolution Gold, Poosh, Screwdriver and Twisted Vinyl), and under a range of monikers including Plus System, The Scotchman, Interstate, Bass-X (with his brother Stewart), and with his band Q-Tex, which was formed in 1991.

Releases and album appearances
His work is featured on Bonkers compilation series. Brown has also appeared on the compilation albums of Dancemania's Speed series. His first appearance on the series was on the third issue of the series in 1999. He later appeared on Trance Ravers.

Other
In April 2006, his release "Elysium" was given a trance remix by Liverpool dance trio Ultrabeat featuring vocals by Rebecca Rudd. This version was released with a subtitle as "Elysium (I Go Crazy)" to signal the addition of vocals.

Later, in May, his song "Go Berzerk" was included in the PlayStation 2 release of Beatmania IIDX 11 IIDXRED, which was not present on the arcade version or audio releases of the game.

In 2008, Brown released a new song, album and DVD called Livewired.

In 2009 two of Brown's tracks, "Commence (Sy & Unknown Mix)" and "Digital Distortion Works!" (A collaboration between Brown and Neophyte) were featured on an episode of Top Gear in which Richard Hammond and Jeremy Clarkson glues a CD into James May’s car stereo system as well as gluing the volume knob at maximum, leaving James unable to turn the volume down or take the CD out.

In March 2016, Brown collaborated with German Eurodance DJ and producer Special D. to create a new, updated version of "Elysium", also featuring Rebecca Rudd's vocals from Ultrabeat's version. It was released over two digital EPs featuring remixes from several artists, including a UK Hardcore remix by Scott Brown himself which contains samples and inspiration from Brown's original 1999 version.

Discography
Studio albums
 * The Theory of Evolution (1996)
 * Future Progression (1999)
 * Livewired (2008)

title: Scott Brown (DJ)


text:
User:Thaipn

Test thu mot phat nao xem cai wiki nay co gi hon blog ko ?

title: User:Thaipn


text:
Talk:The monks

"The Monks" or just "Monks"
I was always under the impression that there was no "The" in the band's name.

 * The 'official' website the-monks.com uses 'the', so I think it is correct to keep this. --David Edgar 15:18, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

This article should *definitely* be merged with The_Monks article! Why hasn't this been done already? They are obviously about the same band!!

JC

 * Since both articles now contain (approximately) the same factual content, and the merge has been left incomplete for months, I now intend to complete it, making The Monks the main article, and this one as a redirect. --David Edgar 15:18, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Monks confusion
While it would appear sensible to merge the two existing "the monks" pages (content the same), there remains confusion with another band called "The Monks", which featured ex Strawbs players John Ford and Richard Hudson ("Hud"). Terry Cassidy, John Ford, Richard Hudson, Brian Willoughby, Clive Pearse, Chris Parren were the full band. Albums were Suspended Animation and Nasty Habits; the latter notable for their most well known hit, Nice Legs, Shame About Her Face.

 * I've now added The Monks (punk band) (for want of a better name) on this other band, and will add a suitable notice to the top of the merged The Monks page. --David Edgar 15:18, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:The monks


text:
Talk:Volvo Cars

Assembly plants
I know for a fact that there is a VCC operated assembly plant in Luqiao, China. I believe it opened during 2016, but I am not sure. Also something should be mentioned about the new plant being built in South Carolina, Volvo's first ever on American soil: http://www.volvocars.com/us/about/our-company/south-carolina-factory — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.24.213.186 (talk) 23:22, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This reply may be too late, but I created the List of Volvo Car production plants page a few days back. Coincidentally, I stumbled upon your Talk page entry today... I thought I'd leave this note here if anyone is/was interested in a full list of Volvo-owned or Volvo-joint venture plants. There are also multiple contract assembly plants (not Volvo owned) which are missing from the table... I will try to include them as well in the near future. Cheers, Aero777 (talk) 15:37, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Sales figures
This new section, in its current form, seems problematic. It has many sources that all fail to explain where they get their numbers from, most sources are repeated dozens of times and most of the content is a direct copy from the given sources. Can someone with more experience take a look and determine the best way forward? 2A04:4540:1712:1501:A1D7:E56C:7D76:3AC4 (talk) 18:20, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
 * There was a question at theWikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard in July 2017, but it was never answered. The website does look like it's self-published, and there is no way to know what kind of editorial control and fact-checking they use. I also think that the section may be overly detailed, and almost WP:FANCRUFT or WP:NOTSTATS. I've asked for comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles where there probably are some editors that have discussed the source and similar lists before. Sjö (talk) 06:38, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The annual sales figures by country were eventually sourced, and proved to be a copy-paste WP:COPYVIO and has now been removed twice.  Just because the info is attributed, doesn't mean we can plagiarize it.  Pease do not re-add it without an OTRS ticket from the copyright holder.   Toddst1 (talk) 17:17, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note that has now been blocked for continuing to add this material. Toddst1 (talk) 16:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Facts cannot be copyrighted - Sales figures are just numbers & facts. As far as I know, only the expression of facts can be copyrights, but the article is just quoting facts listed on some external sites. Raysonho (talk) 13:25, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
 * As per your own text the expression or in a broader sense the way information is presented can be copyrighted. Which makes the copy+paste nature of the whole section a potential problem. Or is that okay? I would also disagree that the article is just quoting facts, given that the website in question is a self described blog and does not give proper credit to its sources. As such at the moment there are no facts quoted, only numbers. The same content had been removed once before in January so I fail to see what has changed. 2A04:4540:902:D00:31B8:C628:CC65:31F4 (talk) 18:22, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I sort of agree. We can make the section present the data in a different way. Raysonho (talk) 00:06, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Delete final para. in History section?
It’s written as if it’s something innovative, but I’m sure that other car manfrs have offered similar deals for years. Care to agree? If so, please cut it. Thanks. Boscaswell  talk  21:22, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

"Chinese owned Swedish"
We seem to have an editor who is very fascinated at the fact that Volvo is owned by the Chinese and insists on having "...Chinese-owned Swedish luxury.." in the opening sentence. Whilst it is no secret that Volvo is Chinese owned, is it really required in the opening sentence? Jaguar Land Rover is owned by Tata which is Indian, but that article has no mention of "...Indian owned British...". I personally do not feel it is required considering the article mentions the fact that currently it is owned by Geely which is a Chinese company later in the article. What are everyone else's thoughts? Goodreg3 (talk) 20:59, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree, this article should be treated no differently than other articles about car manufacturers. Besides it already has "and is a subsidiary of Chinese automotive company Geely" in the lede. Sjö (talk) 21:21, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I come to this article two year later. I disagree. It is a Chinese-Swedish car company. That is the honest description. I don't object to a Swedish-Chinese description. Vowvo (talk) 20:53, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
 * It isn't about agreeing or disagreeing, it's not "Chinese-Swedish", period. The company is registered under Swedish law and it's headquartered in Sweden, that's the truth. The fact it's controlled by a Chinese parent doesn't change that. The situation may change in the future (there are plans to merge Geely and Volvo Cars into a sole company) but, as it stands, Volvo Personvagnar AB is a Swedish company. --Urbanoc (talk) 21:18, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Volvo Personvagnar AB may be headquartered in Swedish but this article is not Volvo Personvagnar AB. BMW North America is an American company but why don't we say BMW is an American company.

 * There is a way to compromise. It is to write as to not deceive anyone. This is the current version:

Volvo Cars (Swedish: Volvo personvagnar), stylized as VOLVO, is a Swedish luxury automobile marque. It is headquartered in Torslanda in Gothenburg, Sweden.

 * I proposed to keep the exact same wording of the article but to move a sentence later in the lede (and make a slight modification) into the first paragraph. The proposed version would be:

Volvo Cars (Swedish: Volvo personvagnar), stylized as VOLVO, is a Swedish luxury automobile marque. It is headquartered in Torslanda in Gothenburg, Sweden. Volvo is a subsidiary of the Chinese automotive company Geely. Vowvo (talk) 18:33, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Ehmm.. Yes, this article about Volvo Personvagnar AB, "Volvo Car Corporation" is just the anglicised version of the company's name. I don't know what you mean by your comparison with BMW North America: BMW North America, as you say,  an American company even if the marque it sells and its parent company are both German. All three things are true. A multinational can own subsidiaries and/or trade marks registered under different law, that's not something inusual. It's the same for Geely in this case, it's a Chinese company with a Swedish subsidiary that sells its own marque, simple as that. As for your proposed new wording, I neither oppose it nor support it, so, if you gain more consensus, I don't mind it being changed. I don't even mind if you're WP:BOLD and add it. But, if you're reverted by someone, you need to come back here :). Regards. --Urbanoc (talk) 19:20, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I do not understand the obsession with China. There was no push to describe Volvo as an American company while it was owned by Ford, and as far as I can see in other articles about car manufacturers the nationality of the parent company doesn't matter; why should it matter here? Sjö (talk) 20:22, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * And there has been no attempt to add "American" before "Ford Motor Company" so apparently it is only the fact that Volvo Cars is owned by a Chinese company that upsets some. I think that this is WP:UNDUE, especially for the lede, unless there is some kind of general agreement across Wikipedia that all articles about car brands should include the owner's nationality. Sjö (talk) 06:17, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The fact that the same thing also occurs on Volvo, which is not even majority owned by Geely, suggests there are efforts in exaggerating "China's" involvement. It seems the page needs to be protected again. TylerBurden (talk) 09:47, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
 * There needs to be transparency about Chinese ownership of the company and as it's written now it tries to minimize this. If people have a problem that the page about Ford does not say in the opening paragraph that's American owned, then they need to change that page, not try to obfuscate the fact that Volvo is in fact Chinese owned. 155.69.167.66 (talk) 03:02, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Geely ownership is already in the lead, what you did was add duplicated content. Did you even read the article before changing it? TylerBurden (talk) 15:19, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

"Good-News"?! (Italian Web)

 * Volvo electric Supercar (www.motor1.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.34.85.148 (talk) 23:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 June 2023
Change:

The company's main marketing arguments are safety and its Swedish heritage and design.

To:

The company's main marketing arguments are safety, it's Swedish heritage and design. 24.232.57.8 (talk) 17:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: That would be less readable and grammatically incorrect. Actualcpscm (talk) 21:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Volvo Cars


text:
Prairieville, Louisiana

Prairieville is a census-designated place in Ascension Parish, Louisiana, United States. It is south of Baton Rouge and north of Gonzales.

Prairieville is an expanding bedroom suburb of Baton Rouge. Its name is derived from the once plentiful pastures and prairies that were visible from Highway 73 (Jefferson Hwy.) and Airline Highway, which is now covered with development. Prairieville started off as a quiet community with few people.

In recent decades, Prairieville has benefited from migration out of Baton Rouge, with new residents particularly drawn to the area by its high-performing public schools and low crime rate. Prairieville had a 2020 census population of 33,197 inhabitants. If it was incorporated it would be the largest city in Ascension Parish. Prairieville is in one of the fastest-growing areas in Louisiana. Prairieville's population is bigger than the parish's two largest incorporated cities, Donaldsonville (6,695) and Gonzales (12,231) combined.

History
Prairieville is vulnerable to hurricanes and tropical systems due to its proximity to the coast of southeast Louisiana. Hurricane Gustav caused major damage to the Prairieville area; many trees were downed and power lines were down for weeks.

The most notable local property was the Phillips Farm. The farmhouse is still a local landmark in Prairieville, although the original owner died in 2005. The house is lined with live oaks and a white planked fence surrounds the grounds. The pasture was sold in 1992 at the start of the suburban development and a 250-resident subdivision named "Seven Oaks" surrounds the farm where the pastures were.

In 2006, the farmhouse was sold at auction following the death of Dr. Carey A. Phillips. The 40 acre tract of land (including the house) has been made into a cemetery now called Oak Lane Memorial Park.

In 2020, Bluff Middle School opened, which is now the top middle school in Ascension Parish.

Demographics
Prairieville was first listed as a census designated place in the 2010 U.S. Census.

As of the 2020 United States census, there were 33,197 people, 10,928 households, and 8,428 families residing in the CDP.

Notable people

 * Tony Bacala, law enforcement officer and politician
 * Grace Broussard who, along with Dale Houston, formed the duo Dale and Grace and had a #1 hit record in 1963, "I'm Leaving It Up to You".
 * Former LSU track star and Olympic athlete Lolo Jones lives in Prairieville.
 * State Representative Eddie J. Lambert
 * Sidney McCrory, Louisiana Commissioner of Agriculture and Forestry from 1956 to 1960 and a native of Ascension Parish, is interred at Prairieville Cemetery.
 * Joe Sevario. Louisiana State Senator
 * Jacob Waguespack, MLB pitcher for the Toronto Blue Jays.
 * Former LSU football star and former New York Giants football player Corey Webster has a home in Prairieville.
 * Scott Innes, famous voice actor who commonly plays the role of Scooby-Doo lives in Prairieville
 * Justin Reid, NFL safety for the Kansas City Chiefs.

title: Prairieville, Louisiana


text: User talk:82.156.49.1

title: User talk:82.156.49.1


text:
Lambda expression

Lambda expression may refer to:

 * Lambda expression in computer programming, also called an anonymous function, is a defined function not bound to an identifier.
 * Lambda expression in lambda calculus, a formal system in mathematical logic and computer science for expressing computation by way of variable binding and substitution.

title: Lambda expression


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Scott Brown

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was NO CONSENSUS, so keep. -Splash 21:00, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Scott Brown
Completing vfd- no vote--Doc (?) 13:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Vanity --MicroFeet 02:01, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Pavel Vozenilek 02:21, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Forbsey 05:25, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Linarator 05:28, 10 Aug 2005 (PST)
 * Keep, appears to have a very significant discography. JYolkowski // talk 18:32, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep Allmusic speaks well of him. Denni ☯ 23:41, 2005 September 4 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Drake & Josh (soundtrack)

The Drake & Josh soundtrack (also known as Drake & Josh: Songs from and inspired by the hit TV show, as indicated on the album cover) is the soundtrack by Drake Bell and various artists that features many of the songs from the Nickelodeon series of the same name. It also features songs that weren't used in the show but were inspired by it.

The soundtrack also includes the theme song for the series, "I Found a Way" written by show star Drake Bell and Michael "Backhouse Mike" Corcoran.

With the exception of "Soul Man", the contributions on the soundtrack by Drake Bell are also on his debut album Telegraph (2005).

The soundtrack charted at #178 on the Billboard 200 and sold 1,260 copies in its first week.

title: Drake & Josh (soundtrack)


text:
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gas metal arc welding

Gas metal arc welding
Self nom, second in a who-knows-how-long series on welding-related topics. This went through peer review a few weeks ago, and all the suggestions have been implemented, I believe. Anything else? --Spangineer (háblame)  02:02, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

 * Support. Looks good. --Carnildo 04:01, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Support Its really well done. Spangineer has taken a lot of trouble to do this page. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  08:29, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Looking forward to see a techinical article on FA. This one is really good as the explanations are comprehensive. Unsigned comment by Deryck Chan at 09:07, July 20, 2005. --Spangineer  (háblame)  23:01, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Object. Please change inline citations into endnotes so they are visible without going into edit mode. Neutralitytalk 00:49, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Even though there are 25 of them? Lots of FACs make it without any inline citations (visible or otherwise), so I'm not sure why adding a long section of notes is necessary.  If you insist and others don't mind, I can make the change, however. Or perhaps turning only the most important inline citations into endnotes would be acceptable? --Spangineer  (háblame)  10:30, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Conditional Support I almost wish I hadn't read the above objection, but it appears valid. Why would one hide the citations/footnotes in the "edit" mode to begin with? If I can figure out how to switch'm, I'll try to do a few.Sfahey 19:08, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Basically, because there are 25 of them and the current footnote system that allows for automatic numbering and mentioning page numbers requires alot of space. See the reference section of the Bill Clinton article and then imagine it another 50% longer. The current citation format has been used in numerous featured articles, including Welding, BC Rail, Civil Air Patrol, and Geology of the Grand Canyon area. --Spangineer  (háblame)  19:22, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * There. I did a couple the way I've done'm on other FA's. I'll stop here for now, since there are other formats that work. This article is otherwise a "slam-dunk". Sfahey 19:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Notes in that format will require manual renumbering throughout the article if one is added to the top of the article. I don't consider that acceptable. --Spangineer  (háblame)  19:30, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment I also had a problem with the inote citations in this article as citations are an important part of the text and users shouldn't have to go into edit mode to see them. To remedy the problem, I created a script to convert from the inote convention to the ref/note convention. The script is called a inote.pl and it is in the public domain. Cedars 04:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, seems like inline notes are taboo these days. For consistency's sake, I hope you guys will join me in arguing that all FAs need inline citations, now that you've insisted that they be visible in an article that already had them.  I've renamed the notes that Cedars's tool generated so that they are slightly more useful and not numerical, and moved some of the references to a further reading section since they aren't explicitly referenced.  Anything else? --Spangineer  (háblame)  05:00, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I will definitely support a move to make all FAs use visible citations. I've also updated the script to make use of the second argument of the inote tag. If such an argument is provided the script will now use that argument instead of automatic numbering. Thanks for respecting our viewpoint, even though you may not have agreed with it. Cedars 05:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to be edgy, and it doesn't matter that much to me either way. The article isn't that long, so another fairly long section won't hurt much. It just seems to me like it's splitting hairs to give an article that already has inline references this much attention (over formatting) when most of the other current FACs don't have any inline references, visible or otherwise. But I appreciate the interest in improving this article. --Spangineer (háblame)  05:38, July 23, 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Florencia de la V

Untitled
The English in this article is pretty bad. It has obviously been translated by someone whose first language is Spanish. I suggest that in future they get someone whose native language is English to translate it. There are a few cases of false cognate usage - 'represent' does not have the meaning 'to play the role of' or 'perform' as it does in Spanish. There is confusion between to do/to make in the first line! Also, the spelling error in what should be 'comfortable' shows that the person was simply transcribing from Spanish, as they left the Spanish spelling of this word intact...

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text:
Nancy Drew: The Haunted Carousel

The Haunted Carousel is the eighth installment in the Nancy Drew point-and-click adventure game series by Her Interactive. The game is available for play on Microsoft Windows platforms. It has an ESRB rating of E for moments of mild violence and peril. Players take on the first-person view of fictional amateur sleuth Nancy Drew and must solve the mystery through interrogation of suspects, solving puzzles, and discovering clues.

The game was released in August 2003. Upon its release, the game elicited favorable reviews from gaming critics, who commended its graphics and plot. During 2003, the game sold more than 48,000 copies in the United States.

Plot
Paula Santos, the owner of Captain's Cove Amusement Park in New Jersey, has asked Nancy for help because there have been mysterious things happening at the park. First, the lead horse disappeared off the carousel. After that the carousel began mysteriously starting up in the middle of the night. Then the roller coaster suddenly lost power, resulting in a serious accident. The park is shut down until the city knows what caused it. There is a rumor going around that the park is cursed. Drew must determine whether the painted ponies are searching for their missing lead horse, or whether there is another explanation for the "midnight rides".

Wrong decisions can cause the game to end. In previous volumes of the series, these endings typically involved Drew's death; however, in The Haunted Carousel, a more frequent conclusion is Drew being fired for a mishap.

Gameplay
There are two levels of gameplay: a "Junior" mode, and a "Senior" detective mode. Each mode offers a different difficulty level of puzzles and hints, but neither of these changes affect the actual plot of the game.

Development
The game is loosely based on a book of the same name, The Haunted Carousel (1983).

Characters
Adapted from the game's official site.
 * Nancy Drew - Nancy is an 18-year-old amateur detective from the fictional town of River Heights in the United States. She is the only playable character in the game, which means the player must solve the mystery from her perspective.
 * Elliot Chen - Elliott is the park's art director and is responsible for all the visual components at Captain's Cove. He is a major procrastinator and is currently several weeks behind on his projects. The park's shutdown could seriously help him get caught up. He has no theory on what is happening at the park.
 * Harlan Bishop - Harlan is the park's recently hired security guard, and he oversees the security system of Captain's Cove. He is helpful, efficient, and good at his job, but very evasive about his past. He's eager to prove to his bosses that they should keep him permanently. He thinks the mysterious occurrences are just a coincidence, and doesn't believe in the hauntings.
 * Ingrid Corey - Ingrid is the chief engineer of the park and maintains all the rides at Captain's Cove, even the ones that have malfunctioned. She is extremely smart, but she is overworked while the park is understaffed during the shutdown. She is interested in holistic medicine and believes the park is actually cursed.
 * Joy Trent - Joy is the park's bookkeeper, and she is in charge of all of the park's financial records. Joy's father used to be co-owner of Captain's Cove until Paula Santos bought him out when he went bankrupt. Joy is a nervous, sad, and slightly reclusive person who believes that the owner of the park is behind the haunting as a publicity stunt.

Cast

 * Nancy Drew - Lani Minella
 * Joy Trent - Laurie Jerger
 * Elliot Chen - Gary Hoffman
 * Harlan Bishop/Anton Sukov/Receptionist/Miles the Magnificent Memory Machine - Jonah von Spreekin
 * Ingrid Corey - Kathleen Howe
 * Paula Santos - Keri Healey
 * Bess Marvin - Alisa Murray
 * George Fayne - Maureen Nelson
 * Frank Hardy - Joshua Silwa
 * Joe Hardy - Rob Jones
 * Detective K.J. Perris/Tink Obermier - Fred Draeger
 * Lance Huffington/Luis Guerra - Max Holechek

Critical
Upon its release, The Haunted Carousel received favorable reviews from critics. On Review aggregation website Metacritic, the game holds a score of 85 out of 100, denoting "generally favorable reviews". The Haunted Carousel remains the Her Interactive game with the most favorable critical reception, according to MetaCritic. In a review for Just Adventure, critic Ray Ivey awarded the album a letter grade of "A." He commended the graphics as "crisp, clean, colorful and appealing", deemed it the "tightest game so far in the series", and praised the game's shortness, observing that its brevity is in keeping with that of the book series. Writing for GameZone, critic Anise Hollingshead commended the album for providing a game for teenagers that's free of "graphic violence and sexual content", and opined that it was particularly fitting for players between the ages of 12 and 16. She awarded the gameplay a score of 9 out of 10, while graphics and sound each garnered 8 out of 10, and concept 7 out of 10.

Charles Herold of The New York Times wrote that The Haunted Carousel "returns to form with intelligent puzzles and an intriguing story."

Commercial
According to PC Data, The Haunted Carousel sold 48,500 retail copies in North America during 2003.

title: Nancy Drew: The Haunted Carousel


text:
Talk:Australian Institute of Sport

Cycling Tragedy in Germany
On Monday 18 July, 2005 six women cyclists in the Institute's Women's Road Cycling program were hit by a car near Leipzig, Germany while on a training ride for the Tour of Thuringen. Amy Gillett (born 9 January, 1976) died at the scene, with Alexis Rhodes and Louise Yaxley critically injured. Other members of the team injured included Lorian Graham, Katie Brown and Kate Nicholls. The accident happened when the 18-year-old female driver of the car lost control and swerved onto the wrong side of the road thus hitting the cyclists head on. The driver had to be cut free and was also listed in a serious condition.

 * --Robert Merkel 02:05, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Football (soccer)
I think that the football program should keep a seperate page as there are a some interesting facts that are mentioned there that wouldn't really belong here (primarily to do with the fact that they recently (2005) entered a team into the highest state league in NSW, and also to do with Croatia poaching AIS players forcing the introduction of contracts which state that if an AIS player ends up representing another country (not Australia) at international level then they must repay the cost of the taxpayer funded scholarship). Cursive 22:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)it was made in 1981

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text:
Talk:War On Some Drugs

Votes for deletion
In July 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was to merge with Prohibition (drugs). See Votes for deletion/War On Some Drugs for a record of the discussion. — Trilobite (Talk) 02:05, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:War On Some Drugs


text: Category:Empirical laws

title: Category:Empirical laws


text:
Talk:Anacamptis

What does this mean:

"They all have a diploid chromosome number of 32 or 36."

I take it the "of" is superfluous, but is the number 32 or 36 correlated with anything, or random? Pdn 02:06, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Kew is the top authority on orchids. In their "Kew Scientist" of October 1997, issue 12, Dr. Pridgeon clearly states :

" Perhaps the most exciting is that the type genus Orchis, as currently circumscribed, is polyphyletic. The 33 species fall into three distinct, well supported clades: the Orchis militaris clade with 18 species (including the genus Aceras) all having a diploid chromosome number of 42, the O. ustulata clade with five species (including the genus Neotinea) all with a diploid number of 42 plus one B-chromosome, and the O. morio clade with 13 species (including the genus Anacamptis) having a diploid number of 32 or 36.

See here on page l :  JoJan 05:45, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

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text:
Talk:Steven J. Kopp

Votes for deletion
In July 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was to merge with Stephen J. Kopp. See Votes for deletion/Steven J. Kopp for a record of the discussion. — Trilobite (Talk) 02:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Steven J. Kopp


text:
Talk:Gay cruising in England and Wales

Start
Wow! Great change to the article. Definately encyclopedic now. 4.232.141.117 02:07, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

This article has been kept following this VFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!)  11:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Shall we move it to Gay cruising in the United Kingdom then? -- Joolz 12:37, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Yup! --Skud 11:08, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Just the UK?
Why is this article so UK-specific? Wouldn't it be more fruitful to have a less nationally-specific article, considering that gay cruising is hardly a phenomenon unique to the UK? I know, I know, start it myself... but why not just an article on "gay cruising" with national sections if you think the practice is so different in different countries? Moncrief 02:41, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

don't move. — Nightst a  llion  (?) Seen this already? 09:08, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

 * Talk:Gay cruising in the United Kingdom — Gay cruising in the United Kingdom → Gay cruising – There are currently 3 regional "Gay cruising" articles (UK, Japan, Canada) - makes more sense to have them as 1 article, especially as the same info is repeated on each one.

support

 * 1) Support, let's merge them.  haz  (user talk) e 20:11, 16 March 2006

Oppose

 * 1) Oppose.   The only information that the three articles contain that is the same is the opening paragraph that describes what cruising is.  There is information specific to each area.  The UK article is quite long.  The other two are sub-stubs, because they were just created today.  Exploding Boy 21:07, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose - the law surrounding this activity is quite different dependent on which country you are in, and there is enough information specific to the Uk in this article to warrant it having its own article. -- Francs2000 [[Image:Gay flag.svg|25px| ]] 03:15, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, this is not a WP:RM but a WP:MM... — Nightst a  llion  (?) Seen this already? 09:08, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

List of gay cruising areas...
...has to go. WP:NOT a yellow pages. the.crazy.russian  (T)   (C)   (E)  18:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

 * And once again, I ask you exactly why you object to this particular list. Wikipedia contains many, many lists, a lot of them as stand-alone pages.  This particular list is informational and provides an easy method of demonstrating the scope and variety of such places.  In particular, gay cruising areas are usually invisible unless one is in the know; the lists here provide something concrete.  I really don't understand your increasing objections to this.  Why not object to something like list of unusual deaths, or list of lifestyles instead?  Exploding Boy 23:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I always object to stuff as I come across it. I am a happy deletionist and never shy away. I posted my previously-expressed comments on this page to make them part of the record, that's all. Nothing new. the.crazy.russian  (T)   (C)   (E)  00:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

As a gay man from the UK who occasionally goes cruising, I have concerns about this list. From a Wikipedia POV I believe that many of the places mentioned do not merit inclusion in an encyclopaedia. Exceptions are few in number and would include Clapham Common (where Ron Davies was mugged) and possibly Hampstead Heath but certainly not Colwick Woods in Nottingham. Also this article should not become a directory for cruisers - there are various message boards such as The Cruising Ground and Squirt for that purpose. Aside from detracting from the purpose of Wikipedia there is also an important safety issue. These two sites contain up-to-date information about which areas are at risk of violence or are causing a nuisance to the local community. 213.120.42.191 17:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I totally agree. The problem is that as an open encyclopedia, if you list one you have to be prepared for other people to list others.  So you either don't list any at all, or watch the edits to the page very closely for future edits. -- Roleplayer 23:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I've now removed the list, in accordance with WP:NOT, and merged the section "Cruising areas in Britain" with "Current information". The list, incidentally, had an entry with a POV comment along the lines of "This was a nice area until they turned up" (my emphasis). I suspect that "they" had been using this area long before the person who made the edits heard about it. Hope this is agreeable to everyone. (LancsCruiser) 213.120.11.219 22:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that a "Notable areas" section has appeared together with a lot of gossip about politicians and celebrities. I've got rid of it in accordance with WP:NOTDIR. Rugxulo (talk) 00:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

How cruisers (supposedly) identify each other
Cruisers identify each other using shoulder bags, and people carrying laptops have been propositioned to the embarrassment of both parties? What unsubstantiated nonsense. Gay men don't need bags to be able to spot each other cruising. This statement is made without any reference to back it up, in any case. — Paul G 18:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Agreed. Be bold and take it out.  I certainly don't need a ponsy shoulder bag to tell me someone is out for a cruise: my gaydar suffices enough and besides the shoulder bag thing doesn't go with the look I find attractive. -- 81.151.249.20 23:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I have removed this information and also a lot of POV original research on Hampstead Heath that isn't mentioned in the referenced BBC article. (LancsCruiser) 213.120.11.88 20:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Wanted, recommendations for a main directory of cruising websites
The external links is suffering from repeated drive-by editors adding their favourite cruising websites. In order to meet the guidance of WP:NOTDIRECTORY does anyone have a good main directory of cruising related sites to reference in order to replace this list? Normally we would find a category in the Open Directory Project but I don't think there is one devoted to gay cruising.—Ash (talk) 09:40, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I can think of two popular sites, these being Squirt and Cruisinground/Gaybod. The problem with these lists of links is that there are a number of sites which are little more than private blogs, many of which are localised and/or horribly out of date, and the line has to be drawn somewhere. Rugxulo (talk) 00:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

𝓒𝓪𝓷 𝔂𝓸𝓾 𝓱𝓪𝓿𝓮 𝓪 𝓫𝓪𝓫𝔂 𝔀𝓲𝓽𝓱 𝓪 𝓰𝓲𝓻𝓵 𝓲𝓯 𝔂𝓸𝓾 𝓪 𝓰𝓲𝓻𝓵 2601:152:301:257:D833:4390:621:494F (talk) 00:25, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gay cruising in England and Wales