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Talk:Metro systems by annual passenger rides

Australian metro systems
I am not exactly sure what the differences between metro systems, commuter rail, light rail etc. are, but i think the rail networks in Australian cities should be included in the list. I found them on the page commuter rail in Australia. Feel free to remove them if they are not appropriate for this list. Nuiop728 (talk) 10:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

 * I'm going to remove the Australian cities from the list. Feel free to read rapid transit for some more info, but basically a metro is a very frequent rail service that operates independently of other forms of transport (car, etc), usually by being underground or elevated. As I understand, all Australian cities have level crossings. Also, metros usually do not operate on a specific timetable but rather a frequency, such as trains every 10 minutes. This is also not the case in Australia. It is a real shame that Australia is so far behind dozens of other countries throughout the world. J ames A    >talk  03:50, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

 * I don't think it's reasonable to exclude a city like Melbourne, with ~220 million annual users, few remaining level crossings and trains that are usually less than 15 minutes apart. The primary difference is not the type of rail system, but geography. Most Australian cities are quite sprawling and were planned with separate avenues for trains, even if lines weren't installed, so there wasn't a need to have raised or subterranean tracks. --Senor Freebie (talk) 01:13, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure about Brisbane, Perth or Adelaide, but Sydney and Melbourne definitely have grade separation (although I havent seen every crossing, maybe there are some level crossings?). Most of the railways in the centre of Sydney and Melbourne are underground. As for the timetable thing - is there really a difference between having a timetable and having a frequency? I think the reason is that in some of the bigger systems the trains come so frequently that there is no need for timetable (i.e. if the train comes every 5 mins, there simply is not much use for a timetable, the train could be 2 minutes late) In Sydney and Melbourne the train frequencies are more like 20 minutes, so there is use for a timetable. The only difference that I could really think of (between Australia and London, Paris or Tokyo) is that these large systems have a dedicated number of separate lines, if you catch a train it will always travel up and down that line, whereas in Sydney/Melbourne there are no dedicated lines, the network is all essentially joined. In Melbourne, for example (there is a map on the page Metro Trains Melbourne) two trains could be headed from city loop towards Clifton Hill, but then split, one going towards Epping, and another heading for Hurtsbridge. In a system with dedicated lines, the stop at Clifton Hill would have four separate platforms, two for the 'Hurtsbridge line', and two for the 'Epping line' (two because one heading one direction, another heading in the opposite direction). Do you understand what I mean? This is the only reason I could think of to not to include Sydney/Melbourne. But think of the smaller systems listed - do they really have dedicated lines and grade separation? Ive never seen them, but it seems highly unlikely given how small they are, and how small the cities are. This is why I think the list should include Sydney/Melbourne - I am sure that they would fit the definition of a Metro system better than half the other systems on this list, the official name of the Melbourne system is even 'Metro Trains Melbourne'. Nuiop727 (talk) 14:25, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, please discuss Australian systems on List of metro systems talk (and search first that talk and its archive, there are several threads about Australia), not here, as inclusion to that list is based on list of metro systems inclusion. --Jklamo (talk) 07:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Edmonton LRT
LincolnHo has been very persistent in adding the Edmonton LRT to the list. The Edmonton LRT is not a metro system, it has lots of grade crossings and runs down medians of arterial roads. Therefore it shall be removed, if anyone has any issues with this and would like it to be added back please write it here. Terramorphous (talk • contribs) 04:19, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

SF Muni Metro missing??
From the San Francisco Muni Metro Wikipedia page:

"Muni Metro is a light rail system serving San Francisco, California, operated by the San Francisco Municipal Railway (Muni), a division of the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency (SFMTA). Serving 156,900 passengers a day, Muni Metro is the second busiest light rail system in the United States.[1]"

If Muni Metro is second busiest light rail system in US, why does it not appear on this list of Metro systems by annual ridership? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.225.82 (talk) 07:11, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * FTR, Muni Metro is considered a Light rail system - it is, instead, included in all of the Light rail, and Light rail ridership, lists... --IJBall (talk) 04:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Re-formatting the list
I am proposing a re-formatting of the list material into a table. The current form is long and not very attractive. I'm thinking about changing it to something similar to:

(I know some of the numbers aren't updated; this is just a version I was working on a few weeks back.)

Thoughts? Suggestions? -Multivariable (talk) 01:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC) [Moved by IJBall (talk) 04:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)]
 * For the record, I would Strongly Support this change/reformat - the table would look much better if done as proposed above... --IJBall (talk) 04:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Suggestion: the Ridership numbers should be standardized in such a way that the sort works correctly. On initial page load the sort is by Ridership descending, but manually selecting a sort and then returning to descending/Ridership results in incorrect behavior where '99' is interpreted as greater than '10 million.'199.172.169.97 (talk) 17:14, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

 * I support that. In particular a ranking that doesn't have an easy way of accessing the actual rank doesn't make much sense (to me anyway). OdinFK (talk) 12:15, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

This List Needs Some Common Reference Points for Ridership Stats
I realize that, for an international list liked this, one universal "ridership reference" is impossible.

But I propose for the American and Canadian systems, at least, that the Annual Ridership figures should all come from the American Public Transit Association's (APTA) Ridership Reports statistics (whenever possible, and I think it's possible for 95% of them...), rather than from each individual system's transit agency's ridership figures - using APTA universally at least allows for better "apples to apples" comparisons of Ridership stats from the U.S. and Canada. Similarly, Annual Ridership statistics for Mexico should probably all come from the Banco de Información Económica - Instituto Nacional de Estadísitica y Geografía's (INEGI) reports.

I don't know if there are similar agencies collecting international data for Europe and/or Asia, but if they exist they should be used as much as possible for Ridership stats, over the Ridership figures from each transit agency, as well.

If I get a chance, I may go through this table, and make certain that the Ridership statistics for the U.S., Canada and Mexico are all from the above sources (as they are for most other Ridership tables on Wikipedia...). --IJBall (talk) 04:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

 * The problem here is that while it may be an "apples to apples" comparison for American/Canadian systems if APTA numbers are used, it would not be comparable to other systems around the world (which is what this list is about). APTA counts all trips as unlinked trips (transfers are counted as multiple trips), inflating American/Canadian numbers when compared to systems that used linked trips. As long as the sources are giving total ridership for a year, I don't see why the systems wouldn't be comparable. Are there similar discrepancies between individual system's ridership data and INEGI ridership data?
 * On a side note, I don't understand why APTA reports unlinked trips as multiple trips. It doesn't give an accurate view of ridership and actually takes more work to calculate. The list should focus on linked trips when possible, with notes whenever unlinked trips are used (like it is now). -Multivariable (talk) 07:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, there's two counter-points to that, I guess.
 * The first is that, if you're pulling the numbers from each individual agency, we don't know how they're counting them - some of them will be giving out the "linked trips" figure, while others may very well be giving out the "unlinked trips" figure, and often they probably won't even be telling you which figure it is they're giving you.
 * The second, and to me potentially bigger, issue is that if you pull the figures from the transit agencies, a lot of the time you're going to be getting "dated" figures (some will be current, but plenty of them will quote Ridership numbers from several years back) - if given the choice, I'd rather have a table where every stat is coming from calendar year 2012 (and the same source), rather than a table with a hodgepodge figures - some from 2012, some from 2011, and a few from 2010 (or even earlier). I personally think one of the most crucial necessities in a list such as this one is that data be as consistent in terms of being from the same calendar year as much as possible. (Comparing figures from 2012 for one system vs. figures from 2008 for another system is almost pointless...)
 * The other issue here is, just glancing at it, roughly half of the American ridership figures, and all of the Canadian figures, are already coming from APTA in this table. To me it makes no sense to not have all of the American figures just come from APTA too, so at least all of those systems are "apples to apples" comparisons.
 * (FTR, I realize APTA figures are going to "inflate" North American Ridership figures somewhat, but I suspect the damages isn't as bad as one might expect. In fact, I think I'll take a look at that issue on my own, and see how bad the discrepancy is between APTA figures and "linked trip" figures from some of the agencies...) And I have no idea why APTA does "unlinked trips" except that I suspect that it's easier for them to count it that way.
 * As for INEGI, I actually don't know the answer to whether their figures are "linked trips" or "unlinked trips" (I suspect it's the former, but I don't know for sure...). As it is, that should only affect one figure in the table - the Monterrey and Guadalajara systems are actually light rail systems, and should be deleted from this table anyway...
 * Of course, the far bigger issue with this table is still needing "universal sourcing" for the Asian and European systems, at least. And I don't know if there are Asian or European equivalents to APTA out there somewhere... --IJBall (talk) 15:08, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * In thinking it over, I think I'm going to leave the Mexico City figure as is, rather than use INEGI's - the Mexico City Metro agency is quoting 1.609 billion; the INEGI figure (which is an approximation, because of the way you have to calculate Annual Ridership from their figures) is 1.604 billion. That's close enough that there's no point in switching in the (probably less accurate) INEGI number... --IJBall (talk) 15:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see comparing different years as a major issue, especially since the list is (for the most part) already up-to-date. Ridership for systems doesn't change much year-to-year (except for rapidly expanding ones, e.g. like those in China), so it's not entirely pointless to compare, say, 2008 to 2012 data when you know the ridership numbers are (for the most part) accurate. As important as it is to have up-to-date figures, it's more important to use comparable figures when possible, especially for an article like this. Most systems don't release numbers as unlinked trips, and when they do, it's fairly obvious (due to discrepancies with third party compiled sources, which always used linked trips).
 * As a comparison, the NY Subway lists its annual ridership for 2012 at 1.654 billion, while APTA lists it as 2.544 billion. It makes little sense to change to figures that you know are substantially inflated rather than use ones that we know are comparable to other global systems, for a real "apples to apples" comparison. -Multivariable (talk) 15:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Agree. As APTA is listing "unlinked trips" only, it is not possible to use it as primary source to keep comparability of the list. --Jklamo (talk) 16:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * FTR, I'm still investigating this, and I'll will require more time, but so far the really big discrepancies between the APTA figures and the agency's figures are New York Subway and Washington Metro (S.F. BART is a borderline case). So far, the other American figures I've looked at from the agencies either seem to be directly from APTA, or are quoting "unlinked trip" statistics themselves. Anyway, I'll research this further when I have some free time... --IJBall (talk) 22:00, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Missing systems
I did again sync with List of metro systems, some systems were removed and these are missing: --Jklamo (talk) 16:08, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Algiers Metro
 * Brescia Metro (opened March 2013)
 * FMetro
 * Hangzhou Metro (opened November 2012)
 * Kobe Rapid Railway
 * Kunming Rail Transit (opened June 2012)
 * Minatomirai Line
 * Shenyang Metro
 * Airport Rail Link (Bangkok)
 * Suzhou Rail Transit (opened April 2012)
 * Yamanote Line
 * Thanks for cleaning it up! Is there a reason Seoul Metropolitan Subway isn't split up like other city's systems (Tokyo, Berlin, Guangzhou/Foshan, Bangkok, etc.), both in this list and in List of metro systems? I'm counting 4 different operators between Lines 1-9. Also, it looks like Seoul's number is based on unlinked trips (the source just sums up Lines 1-9 to get a "total"); I'll make that note in the article. Thanks! -Multivariable (talk) 21:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There is endeless disucussion about Soul in List of metro systems talk, so feel free to join it there. About consideration as system, it is not question of multiple operators (for example Shanghai Metro is operated by four companies), but how far are the lines operated by different companies integrated (single marketing, easy transfers, single fare system) and if they are not fundamentally technically different. Seoul is obviously border case. Anyway definition of being system is now missing on List of metro systems, so it is good idea to raise it there.
 * There is also interesting side effect related to our list (and question of linked-unliked stats), if there is available one (unlinked) ridership value for whole system, we do not have to doubt, if it is single system. If is not available, we can doubt. --Jklamo (talk) 10:32, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Cologne is missing, too. According to the article it has an annual ridership of 208.9 millions, and should clearly be part of the table. OdinFK (talk) 12:15, 19 April 2014 (UTC) Apparently Cologne doesn't fall under the metro definiton. Sorry for the mis-posting. OdinFK (talk) 12:19, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

HKG flag change
HKG flag should be used to represent Hong Kong Another Wiki page List_of_countries_by_population uses Hong Kong(China) to describe Hong Kong, though HKG flag is still used. Hong Kong is politically separated from China even they are under the same country. GB Lothian (talk) 19:29, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Strongly oppose. The above statement is nonsensical - if they're the same country, they're the same country, as they are as is clear from the "One country, two systems" policy. People advocating this change are engaging in "issue advocacy" (see: Advocacy). Further, there is no consensus for this change (see: Consensus), as is shown by multiple editors to this page reverting this change previously. This is a general international listing. Wikipedia is supposed to take a neutral point of view on issues such as this. As Jklamo has said repeatedly before, the PRC-HKG issue is far beyond the scope of this article. Further, outside of yourself, there appear to be shenanigans going on here, as most of the most recent reversions on this issue have come from first-time Wikipedia posters who have no other revision records in their histories. --IJBall (talk) 20:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

 * I can assure you those are not other a/c of mine. You can ask the administrator for that. They appear because I'm asking if the act of using PRC flag for Hong Kong is appropiate in a forum, making some other people trying to change it. Another point is that Hong Kong has long been treated seperately from China, and even the United Kingdom before 1997. Hong Kong's own flag is used in many occasions even the Olympics. Do you need to complain to the IOC that Hong Kong uses it's own flag for joining the competition? You are not trying to make a consensus as well by saying what I feels like "oh I edit THIS page nigga, now get out of MY PAGE nigga". 	GB Lothian (talk) 20:28, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

 * First, your last line is totally inappropriate for a Wikipedia discussion - you're new here, so I'll let it slide, but don't do something that again. Second, the Olympics is its own thing. The point is this: does Hong Kong have its own seat at the U.N.? No. Ergo, it's not it's own country.
 * At this point, I'm going to stop reverting, because it's time for the other editors of this page to step up. But it would be a shame if your clear attempts at issue advocacy bullying are allowed to succeed... --IJBall (talk) 21:25, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Yes, it's totally inappropriate, and that's what I feels like too when you say "I edit THIS page". If you pay that much attention to details you really shouldn't allow HKG flag to appear in any other wikipedia page to represent Hong Kong. And if the UN theory applies, The Republic of China(Taiwan) should use the PRC flag as well. Plus not all countries in the world are a member of the UN(I'm not saying HK is a country, just saying the UN doesn't represent the whole world either). Also the fact that it's clearly not bullying and doubtfully being advocacy. If some other people come along and change the HKG flag back to the PRC flag should I say you all being advocacy as well? I don't think so.GB Lothian (talk) 22:01, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
 * First of all, Hong Konh special administration region is established based on the sino british jointed declaration. Under the jointed declaration, Hong Kong enjoys high autonomy, and China only have a say on defence and foreign affair. Others, like city planning, immigration, are home affairs of Hong Kong, like it or not. Metro systems planning definitely belongs to home affairs. In this case, China doesn't represent Hong Kong, and it is certain Hong Kong flag should be used in stead of China flag. IJBall repeatedly emphasis China own the sovereignty of Hong Kong. I agree with that, but please note that owning the sovereignty doesn't mean it represent Hong Kong in this issue. And even if there is a conference called international metro system summit, Hong Kong flag would still be used and be rised outside the venue in parallel with China and other countries flags. Like it or not, it is Hong Kong's right based on the Sino British jointed declaration.pinkguardian (talk) 12:25, 10 November 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinkguardian (talk • contribs)

 * Strongly oppose HKG flag issue is simply disputable, there is no right solution (thus changing from one to another will not stop discussions). But this list of metro systems, not list of countries (or towns), so this dispute is totally out of scope of this article. In fact, all flags can be removed without big harm to the list. --Jklamo (talk) 13:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

 * That is the best solution if you think this kind of argument is out of scope. GB Lothian (talk) 14:08, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Still seeing no evidence of Consensus for the original change in the HK flag (which would be necessary to leave it as the HKG flag), and the arguments in favor still appear weak (by the arguments made here, we should change the Glasgow flag to Scotland, and all of the U.S. flag to state flags - the arguments make no sense...). The nation column in this list is not supposed to be that complicated - it's just supposed to list what country the system is in, nothing more complicated than that. But even in the arguments above, it is conceded that Hong Kong is in fact not its own country, but part of China. Any other position would seems to be nonobjective, and would appear to violate WP's policy on Advocacy. I'll be reverting back to the original Chinese flag in the near future, based on these discussions so far... --IJBall (talk) 14:51, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

 * I still cannot see any sort of advocacy right now. Hong Kong may not be a independent country, but using HKG flag for Hong Kong is an international consensus. Long been. You still call +44 for Scotland. There is no broader check between Scotland and England. England and Scotland share the same passport. You don't see Scottish Team with it's own flag in the Olympics. There is nothing completely right in this world. There is something very interesting called "exceptions". GB Lothian (talk) 14:02, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

 * You claim there's "consensus" to use HKG flag internationally. There is absolutely no such thing. Most non-HK'ers view HG as part of China. And it's absolutely advocacy - it's telling that pretty much the only people pushing for this change are editors from HK. Everyone else strongly prefers to leave the flag HK as PRC.
 * Once again, the arguments in favor of using the HKG flag are incredibly weak - even the people pushing for it concede that HK is not its own nation. As such, this list should use PRC for HK. There are lists on Wiki where separating out HK from PRC might be appropriate. This list isn't one of them.
 * At this point, I'm not going to revert, because it's time for other editors to step up. But again, it'll be a shame if HK'ers pushing HKG advocacy win this battle here. (And they shouldn't expect to win this fight elsewhere on Wiki...) --IJBall (talk) 16:38, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

 * I suppose that is why people who want PRC flag to represents Hong Kong are those who don't know Hong Kong very well. I'm not going to repeat my point as that will become annoying. And you will only say oh this is advocacy whatever. GB Lothian (talk) 07:34, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Strongly oppose I don't see the point of HK having its own flag. If it was for GDP calculation then it should use the HK flag because it has something to do with the Hong Kong being a highly different and autonomous section of China. Same for population, China's count doesn't include Hong Kong in other words Hong Kong's is subtracted from it. The list would be cumbersome if it where to have duplicate PRC flags. But for metro systems, Hong Kong's ridership doesn't change Beijing's ridership if Hong Kong was separate or not. A metro system is a metro system regardless of the country it's in. Whether or not the Hong Kong is part of China is an identity issue among its populace and policy makers. That being said, this issue is way beyond the scope of this article.Terramorphous (talk) 23:06, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Hong Kong has long been uses it's own flag at international events. This is a tradition. Let's be honest, this is very possibly the only page in wikipedia uses PRC flag for Hon Kong. Moreover, everything you mentioned above is not related to Peking anyway. GB Lothian (talk) 14:02, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Strongly support. I thought this was wonky. Hong Kong is, functionally speaking, far more separate than not, and it's absolutely more common in practice to use the Hong Kong flag to represent the city-state rather than the PRC flag. To use the PRC flag in this case would be highly unusual. Citobun (talk) 16:11, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Support We should follow the general policy and not discuss the status of Hongkong in this article. I searched and found some other list articles with flags. All use the Hongkong flag for Hongkong. These list articles I found are List of countries with most skyscrapers, List of stock exchange opening times, List of countries by tax rates, List of longest suspension bridge spans, List of longest bridges in the world, List of Dragonair destinations, List of conglomerates. --BIL (talk) 20:32, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

 * It isn't listed separately here, which is all that should matter in this discussion. What other pages on Wiki do, or don't do, isn't germane to this discussion, IMO. (And I'd argue that List of countries with most skyscrapers and List of countries by tax rates, both of which have the word "country" in their titles, have this exactly wrong if they're using HKG...) In any case, I'm going to drop this, because this page's "Flag column" doesn't have a column heading of "country" or "nation" - if it did, there's no question that using Hong Kong would be incorrect... --IJBall (talk) 06:29, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

 * It's listed separately most everywhere else off Wikipedia, too. It's just an established norm based on the fact that the city is functionally sovereign in most respects and to argue for a change is quibbling over semantics. As someone in Hong Kong used to finding HK separately in lists online, it would strike me as very unusual to see HK represented by the PRC flag. Citobun (talk) 19:19, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Again. I don't see Republic of Taiwan has a membership either. United Nation DOES NOT represent all countries. GB Lothian (talk) 07:25, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

 * This is the list that matters on Wiki: List of sovereign states. This should determine what is listed as a country, and what isn't. Notice that Hong Kong is listed under China (PRC). If the 'flags' column in this table had a label heading of "Country" or "Nation", there'd be no question what flag should be listed. --IJBall (talk) 00:59, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Follow-up
And so it seems we're back here again. User:Citobun is, as of now, the only person still pushing for the HGK flag. He himself admits there is no WP:Consensus for his position. Worse, the only people who backed up his original position on this was someone who was apparently a WP:SPA who hasn't contributed to Wiki since Dec. 2013, and an IP a suspicious Wiki account that has all of one contribution - to this talk page.

Meanwhile, this page is supposed to parallel the List of metro systems (something Citobun has now ignored twice, without response), and at the Metro list there is strong consensus for no HKG (or PUR) flag. In fact, taking out Citobun's original supporters that I talked about above, that was basically the majority position here too.

So, is anyone else going to stand up for Citobun's position? Or is it, as I suspect, just Citobun pushing this HKG flag business?...

We really need to just put this nonsense aside, and follow the List of metro systems as this list is intended to. --IJBall (talk) 06:04, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

 * In fact, to follow-up further, over at the List of metro systems, a compromise has essentially been arrived at. So, to show I am not completely unreasonable on this issue, I think the following would be an acceptable compromise for this list (and something similar can be done for Puerto Rico):

 * I think it's clear if this isn't acceptable compromise, then there is clearly another agenda going on here... --IJBall (talk) 06:21, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

 * There are plenty of people both here and at other similar list articles who think identifying Hong Kong with the PRC flag would place Wikipedia in the position of awkwardly skirting an established norm used in basically every other non-Wikipedia international list or ranking.

 * I looked through the thread and can't figure out which single-purpose IP address you're talking about, but I kind of object to your calling it "suspicious" as if it were me, as if I'm really the only person who feels that way. Which, given the huge amount of discussion on this topic in all sorts of lists, is not the case (and you know that).

 * It's really absurd to single me out like this, and to accuse everyone who disagrees with you a "nationalist". For me, it's just a matter of adhering what to what is common practice everywhere else. I know your obsession with rules, and I know that's your motivation. You already proved that with your ridiculous claim that the East Rail Line isn't a metro service (talk about "nonsense"). You should try being a bit less inflexible.

 * If you don't have consensus to make the change, it should remain unchanged. Hong Kong was long identified in this article using the Hong Kong flag. Citobun (talk) 06:33, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

 * A couple of points. First, Hong Kong was "long identified" (for at least a year) using the PRC flag in this list too, which means it was the consensus choice until the SPA came around. Second, I'm not implying you are the single-contribution Pinkguardian account (the SPA account seems like a more likely candidate on that score, though I'm not actually claiming that either...), though it does demonstate that it shouldn't carry as much weight as the opinions of long-time editors. Third, I don't think repeatedly insulting me is helping your position any, nor is distorting what I actually said. Fourth, there is no "common practice" on Wikipedia, re: Hong Kong - some lists (where appropriate - e.g. List of countries by tax rates) break it out separately (though I'll note they often use a "modifier" to the label "Country" to denote the more inclusive nature of their list), other lists (most importantly the List of metro systems, but also for example List of countries without armed forces) do not and stick to a List of sovereign states definition for "Country". That really depends on what kind of list it is, and what kind of information they are aggregating. And, really, either way is fine, as long as the definition of "Country" used is clearly defined in their article.
 * The important point is that how each list handles this is governed by Consensus. This list, as it says right there in the article lede, is supposed to parallel the List of metro systems, and has for a long time. The Consensus at metro systems for the definition of "Country" is: "Country (i.e. independent nation or sovereign state) in which the metro system is located." That is the overwhelming consensus choice, as anyone who can check the Talk page can confirm for themselves. Even such, a special consideration, that I've outline above, has been implemented for Hong Kong and Puerto Rico, to denote their unique "special status". As of right now, you are the only editor who is pushing the "HKG-only solution". Why don't we just implement the compromise outlined above, which both keeps this list in parallel with the List of metro systems, and gives both the PRC and the HKG crowd what they want? Can we just move on and do that please? --IJBall (talk) 15:48, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

 * I think you're mistaken that the PRC flag was used here previously...I looked at a few random revisions: 500 revisions ago, 1000 revisions ago, back to 2008 or so when the flags were added and it always used the HKG flag.

 * I haven't used any sockpuppet accounts or IP addresses to contribute to this discussion, so please stop suggesting it (which you are definitely doing by saying "is it, as I suspect, just Citobun pushing this"). I guess you're referring to GB Lothian and the IP 116.48.155.127, neither of which are me...so I am definitely not "the only editor who is pushing for the HKG-only solution".

 * Forgive me for being a bit defensive in response to being singled out for holding an opinion which is definitely not only my own. Like GB Lothian said, you have really appropriated these metro system lists and rankings as your own, have imposed your will on a number of issues and have kind of a dictatorial tone in edit summaries and on talk pages. But I am the one most actively reverting this change, and I feel like you are trying to bully me in singling me out, when there are clearly at least four other users on this talk page who agree with me (though I concede a couple are single-purpose accounts, while others like User:BIL are not).

 * I wrote that treating HK separately in rankings is common practice in "non-Wikipedia" contexts, which I think matters more than what goes on elsewhere in Wikipedia.

 * Since the article used the HK flag long previously, and since WP:No consensus states that "lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the [change]", and since I have hopefully convinced you that I am not using any sockpuppets and that there is therefore no consensus – I feel it should be reverted to its original state, i.e. using the HKG flag. Citobun (talk) 20:18, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

 * No "bullying" is implied here, nor, again, am I implying you are 'sock-puppeting'. But, prior to SPA GB Lothian, the status quo was to use the PRC flag (back through at least 2013), which is what editor Oknazevad meant back on March 27 when he reverted you.
 * The truth remains that, currently (i.e. during 2014), you are the only editor who keeps pushing the HKG flag (which is what I meant by, "...as I suspect, just Citobun pushing this..."). And the fact that you keep rejecting a reasonable compromise (and also continue launching personal attacks on me, and keep ascribing to me things I haven't said and positions I have not taken) says something... --IJBall (talk) 20:52, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The HKG flag was used for the vast majority of the existence of this article (years).

 * Any of those criticisms you are leveling on me could easily be applied to you too. Am I "pushing" anything? I want to sustain the long-established status quo, while you are "pushing" for the change. Am I the "only editor (still)" arguing this point? No, other people expressed the same opinion as mine, just as others agreed with you – at this point, we're the only two arguing here. If I made any personal attack on you, I think I could also say you did the same of me, and I don't think I misquoted you, maybe misinterpreted you once. Anyway, we can both agree focusing on this stuff is not constructive.

 * I want to articulate my point of view on this issue, since I feel it has been misinterpreted as some issue of nationalism. We in Hong Kong, like people anywhere else, are used to viewing ourselves in rankings, lists, etc...and my experience 90% of the time is to find the city measured separately from mainland China because it operates largely as a city-state. It's just a norm, common practice and I feel to have Wikipedia deviate from this norm solely because Hong Kong is not a sovereign state is being over-dedicated to pedantics and rules...like someone who might suggest a large island is no longer an island after a new causeway opens. That isn't meant as a personal slight, just want to explain my view.

 * I appreciate that you have developed a compromise. I have been slow to respond because I wanted to wait and see if anyone else would chime in, though I think the length of this thread probably turns people off from contributing. In the continuing absence of consensus, I'm going to revert back to the HKG and Puerto Rico flags. I still disagree with your compromise because ultimately, at the core of things, it's the same thing...but if we get more input and the consensus is to adopt it, I can live with it because it is better than the alternative. I think we could also use a word from someone with familiarity on the status of Puerto Rico, which I know nothing about.

 * In a nutshell: I think the status quo should remain until we get more opinions, and also see whether or not this article will be merged into List of metro systems, in which case I guess this whole discussion would be irrelevant as I see you have already implemented your compromise there. Citobun (talk) 20:26, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

 * Hong Kong is only conventionally regarded as a city, so much as (Greater) London is a 'city' in comparative contexts among major metropolitans. There's no law that defines HK as a city, whereas in London's case the city charters are held instead by City of London and City of Westminster, the latter of which a borough of Greater London. In the contexts of country comparisons, HK is better described as a dependency or a dependent territory, which is a subset of country, alongside sovereign states. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:15, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

 * (@IJBall (15:48, 5 April 2014 (UTC)) Regarding list of tax rates, you haven't actually answered my question why you think the separation of rail systems between HK and China is different from that of their tax systems. Regarding so-called 'consensus': No, consensus isn't applied in this way. Wikipedia has to stick with how other similar matters are dealt with within and beyond Wikipedia. Barack Obama is still the 44th and current president of the United States even if there's a consensus to suggest that he weren't. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:15, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh, no, that isn't how consensus works. But further discussion on this issue is pointless. --IJBall (talk) 17:23, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

 * Submitted for the record: Quote from GovHK website's "Facts" page: "Hong Kong is a Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China. Following British rule from 1842 to 1997, China assumed sovereignty under the 'one country, two systems' principle." Thus, even HKG doesn't consider itself a "country"... --IJBall (talk) 02:59, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

 * What IJBall put up right above was a copy-and-paste quote of Zanhe's comment under other talk pages.. and so for the record, here's my comments under those talk pages in response to Zanhe's comment:

 * Both the Hong Kong and the Chinese governments consistently present Hong Kong alongside other countries, not alongside Chinese provinces and cities, for whatever international comparison or listing purposes, as you can tell from the links above, e.g., the HKMA one which also includes Bermuda, Jersey and Guernsey. And here's how Hong Kong deals with other countries:,.

 * Zanhe I'm afraid you're cherrypicking, not presenting the full picture, and taking words out of contexts. In the 'One country, two systems' saying, the word 'country' is actually a direct (mis)translation of the Chinese vocabulary  guójiā. Chinese languages lack the separate concepts of 'sovereign state' and country, and the term  guójiā means 'sovereign state(s)'.
 * 116.48.155.127 (talk) 19:49, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Seoul
The list intro says that “this list is using definitions (and systems) from list of metro systems.”

The list has a “Seoul Metropolitan Subway,” and gives its ridership at 2560 million.

A “Seoul Metropolitan Subway” does not exist at list of metro systems.”

List of metro systems counts a metro with a separate operator as a separate metro. For example, it counts separately the Tokyo Metro, the Toei Subway, the Rinkai Line, and the Yamanote Line (which is not a metro of its own, but a single line of in the network of the East Japan Railway Company). It also counts separately the S-Bahns and U-Bahns of large German cities. All despite the fact that they, somehow, are “owned” by “the government.”

List of metro systems had an entry for “Seoul Metropolitan Subway.” List of metro systems no longer does. This entry not was not in accordance with how List of metro systems approaches the topic. Its data also were compiled with a significant amount of Original Research.

If you are still using definitions (and systems) from list of metro systems, it would stand to reason to do this also for Seoul. If you run into trouble when doing so, please let me know.

I thank you for your sometimes difficult work of compiling ridership data from around the world, and especially for supplying each entry with references. I wish, List of metro systems would have a reflist as impressive as yours.

This member of WikiProject Cleanup is ready to help. BsBsBs (talk) 11:03, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

 * ✅ - renamed, as per system name on List of metro systems. --IJBall (talk) 17:09, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Merger
I disagree. Specific lists are necessary in many cases. 116.48.155.127 (talk) 17:04, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

 * I'm now ambivalent on the question. But I'll only support a merger, if the Total rapid transit systems statistics by country article is nominated for deletion as part of a "package" deal for the merger... --IJBall (talk) 19:49, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * This list should be merged, the info contained would only add two columns to List of metro systems and would help in comparing physical size and passenger movements. Regarding List of total rapid transit systems statistics by country, I don't know how that could be merged with another article, so suggest it should be another discussion. Liamdavies (talk) 15:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * FTR, I'd oppose a merger if it meant merging all of this data into one table (List of metro systems doesn't really have room for another column, let alone two!). I thought the original proposal was to add this as a separate table/section further down the page at List of metro systems, though perhaps I was mistaken... --IJBall (talk) 15:32, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

 * Greatly support it. The template by Staglit is excellent. I would probably organize the information in the order: name-country-opening year-ridership-stations-system length-last extension. However, this is going to be discussed! :) I also support deleting List of total rapid transit systems statistics by country.  --Pavlovič (talk) 20:57, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

NOTE: See also, parallel discussion at - Talk:List of metro systems.

Merger, test Table
Hello. I have been working on a test table for List of Metro Systems that includes ridership statistics. If this change is approved, then this page may be deleted. Any thoughts? feel free to edit my User:Staglit/sandbox Staglit (talk) 22:00, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Important Update
OK, there is new info to discuss about the potential 'merge' (and the "merged" table at over at Staglit's sandbox page) at the List of metro systems Talk page - please head over there to discuss the potential merge of this page and the List of metro systems... --IJBall (talk) 15:58, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

 * Final update at: the List of metro systems Talk page – all interested parties please read it, because this article is on its way to being deleted and replaced with a REDIRECT tag in the very, very near future! --IJBall (talk) 02:30, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Sao Paulo CPTM is a metro
The Sao Paulo figures must include CPTM figures.

It's not just because one of Sao Paulo's metro systems is called "Metro" and the other one isn't, that the other one should be forgotten. CPTM is not a "commuter train" system, it is a metro system transporting over 2 million people a day in 6 lines with headways as low as 4 minutes.

CPTM operates low-headway urban trains within urban perimeter, and it has FREE TRANSFER to the "Metro" system.

This official source = http://www.cptm.sp.gov.br/e_contabeis/RelAdministrativo_2012.PDF

says that CPTM transported 764 million passengers in 2012. That's significant. Added to the CMSP (Metro) company figures, Sao Paulo would have 1 billion 652 million annual passengers, sitting between New York and Mexico City.

So unless anyone opposes, I will be changing Sao Paulo's figures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mopcwiki (talk • contribs) 02:40, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
 * You need to make this case over at List of metro systems, not here. The figures here will be reverted, until the system gets added over there. --IJBall (talk) 03:00, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

OK thanks for the info — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mopcwiki (talk • contribs) 03:08, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Final Update
Now that the ridership data has been integrated in to the listings over at List of metro systems, this page will be converted in to a 'Redirect' page within the next 48 hours. This is the final update on the 'merge to' List of metro systems project. --IJBall (talk) 00:00, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

 * And, ✅! The 'merge' project is complete, and this page is now closed out (i.e. turned in to a 'Redirect' page) in favor of integrating the ridership data into the List of metro systems. --IJBall (talk) 19:50, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


text:
Sofoklis Venizelos

Sofoklis Venizelos (Σοφοκλής Βενιζέλος; 3 November 1894 – 7 February 1964) was a Greek politician who served three times as Prime Minister of Greece: in 1944 (in exile), 1950 and 1950–1951.

Life and career
Venizelos was born on 3 November 1894 in Chania, in Crete (then a part of the Ottoman Empire; became an autonomous state under Ottoman suzerainty and the protection of Russia, Britain, France and Italy in 1898). He was the second-born son of the politician Eleftherios Venizelos.During World War I he served with distinction in the Hellenic Army and in the initial phases of the Asia Minor campaign, reaching the rank of Captain of Infantry. He resigned from the Army and was elected as an MP with his father's Liberal Party in the 1920 elections.

In 1941, after the Axis occupation of Greece, he became ambassador to the United States, representing the Greek government in exile based in Cairo. He became a minister of that government in 1943 under Prime Minister Emmanuel Tsuderos, and briefly its Prime Minister in 1944 (April 13–26).

After the end of the war, he returned to Greece; where he became Vice President of the Liberal Party (led by Themistoklis Sofoulis) and a minister in the first post-war government led by Georgios Papandreou.

In 1948 he assumed the leadership of the party and became a minister in a number of short-lived liberal governments led by Papandreou and Nikolaos Plastiras; he was also the Prime Minister of three such governments.

In 1954 his longtime friendship with Georgios Papandreou was shaken, and he formed the rival Liberal Democratic Union (Greece) coalition.

The rift was bridged in 1958, and in 1961 he became a founding member of Papandreou's Center Union party, which he served until his death in 1964.

On 6th February 1964 at evening he had given a pre-election speech in Chania. There he had felt unwell which he overcame. Later he boarded the passenger ship Hellas in the Aegean Sea, en route from Chania to Piraeus or Syros. In the cabin he felt discomfort and had shortness of breath. His attending physician diagnosed acute pulmonary edema. Venizelos died at 01:05 on 7 February. The ship returned to Souda. His funeral took place on Sunday February 9 in Chania, in the presence of Crown Prince Constantine (who represented the ailing King Paul), Prime Minister Ioannis Paraskevopoulos, Georgios Papandreou, Panagiotis Kanellopoulos, Spyros Markezinis and Nicolas Kitsikis. Venizelos was buried next to his father, Eleftherios Venizelos. His wife Kathleen died in 1983 aged 86. In his honor, the shipping company ANEK Lines named one of its ferries after him.

Bridge
Venizelos was a contract bridge player "of international stature" during the 1930s, as a voluntary exile in France. He played for France in the European IBL Championships (later incorporated in the history of present-day European Bridge League championships). France won the 1935 tournament and a version of the team traveled to New York City late that year for a match against the Four Aces, "an unofficial world championship match" that the Aces won.

Venizelos was second in skill to Pierre Albarran among contemporary French players, according to Alan Truscott. Beside the national teams at contract bridge, they both played on a 1933 team that hosted an American foursome led by Ely Culbertson in a long match at "plafond, the French parent of contract bridge, which differed only in the scoring details." The two teams played 102 deals to a draw; Albarran and Venizelos cooperated on a book reporting and analysing the match:
 * Les 102 donnes d'un grand match, by Pierre Albarran, Adrien Aron, and Venizelos, preface by Ely Culbertson (Éditions Grasset, 1933), 188 pp.,

Albarran, Aron, and Venizelos were three of six players on the 1935 European champion team.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Sofoklis Venizelos


text: Talk:Unknown Archon

title: Talk:Unknown Archon


text:
Talk:Immortal (2004 film)

Suggested merge of Immortel(Ad Vitam) and La Foire aux immortels.

 * BEGIN text moved from User_talk:Nabla

I wouldn't merge those 2 articles, it may look like the same content. But in fact it isn't, Immortals is indeed the movie version of a graphic novel. But the story is alter much, some parts are left out and in the movie the story takes place in New York and the book version takes place in Paris. I would rather prefer that the Immortals article makes this very clear(read a big article). Also I suppose that there are multiple examples to find on wikipedia where there is an article on a book and an article on the movie based on the book. And in this context the merge doesn't same to right to me. --Goanookie 11:21, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, the graphic novel takes place in South Africa. --2003:71:4E16:4B38:25D1:4B55:DCBC:EA7C (talk) 04:15, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I understand thay are different, as you said: a book and a movie. My point was, and still is, that both are short articles, so the movie article could be included into the book article. But go ahead and remove the tags, mostly if you feel that at least one of the articles has some growth potential. That's why I tagged them instead of merging myself, in the hope that someone who knows the subject made that decision.
 * And I'll try to explain my reasoning on talk pages more often... as a start I'll copy this to the movie article talk page. - Nabla 18:43:47, 2005-07-12 (UTC)
 * END text moved from User_talk:Nabla

 * I vote no for merging these articles. They may be short at this point, but you never know what will happen in the future. The fact that these two articles are about two entirely different things is vital for not merging. Yes, both the graphic novel and the motion picture are made by Enki Bilal. No, they were not a part of the same project, thus, they should not be merged. cun 17:22, 12 September 2005 (UTC)::

 * I also vote No merge. Just because the articles are short doesn't mean they need to be merged. Since the person who suggested the merger in the first place in July supports the removal of the merge tag, I shall be bold and do so myself. 23skidoo 03:33, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Translating the French
I greatly enjoyed this movie, but the Region 1 DVD spoils the ending a little by not translating Jill's final speech (delivered in French) into English. I think it would be quite helpful if a section were added to the article translating her final dialogue. Any French speakers out there care to take up the challenge? 23skidoo 03:34, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The final dialogue comes from a poem by Charles Baudelaire, Les Fleurs du Mal(Flowers of Evil) - Le Poison(Poisons). Enki Bilal often uses quotes are phrases from Baudelaire. It did surprise me that it was only at the end of the movie that there was a reference to Baudelaire, the part in french as translated by William Aggeler:

 * All that is not equal to the poison which flows
 * From your eyes, from your green eyes,
 * Lakes where my soul trembles and sees its evil side...
 * My dreams come in multitude
 * To slake their thirst in those bitter gulfs. --Goanookie 16:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Might be a good thing to include in the article: all over the 'net -- including IMDB -- there's another, awful translation. It could be that this is actually from the closed-captioning / language options from the DVD (can anyone verify?). Compare this from IMDB to the two stanzas from the Aggeler translation (note that Jill says the first, Nikopol finishes the thought):

IMDB:
 * Jill Bioskop (reciting in French) : Moreover, it matters not that we discuss it... of your eyes, your green eyes. Lakes of my soul tremble and vice versa. My dreams in form of insanity... To soothe those bitter commotions.

 * Nikopol (finishing Jill's recitation in English) : But all that it is not worth of prodigy of your saliva, Jill. It bites my soul, and it dizzies and swirls it down, remorselessly. Rolling it, fainting to the underworld.

Aggeler:
 * (Jill Bioskop)
 * All that is not equal to the poison which flows
 * From your eyes, from your green eyes,
 * Lakes where my soul trembles and sees its evil side...
 * My dreams come in multitude
 * To slake their thirst in those bitter gulfs.
 * (Nikopol)
 * All that is not equal to the awful wonder
 * Of your biting saliva,
 * Charged with madness, that plunges my remorseless soul
 * Into oblivion
 * And rolls it in a swoon to the shores of death.

Michael (talk|contrib) 13:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Pill to become fully human?
I just caught the tail end of this on Sci-Fi, and it said something a woman taking a pill to be completely human. There's no mention of the becoming completely human part in the article. Hackwrench 01:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That is because the movie only tells the story of chapter one of the nikopol triology comics, Enki Bilal does complete the story in the final chapter of the triology. --Goanookie 21:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Death
Having only seen this once I was a bit surprised to read "before his death sentence is carried out." I wasnt under the impression that Horus was killed in the end. He seamed rather pleased with himself to me

Technically, being immortal, Horus' "death sentence" will not kill him. SPOILER: In the comic he is not killed by the gods, but encased in a block on solid rock, a la Han Solo in carbonite. He is later unwittingly released by a bunch of scientists, and proceeds to blast them to smithereens with his laser guys. Go figure. --Nasajin 01:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Title
The poster shows the title as the English "Immortal" rather than (what I assume is the French) Immortel. Shouldn't we use the English version ? -- Beardo 03:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Producers
The infobox lists producers as Jean-Jacques Annaud and John D. Schofield; IMDB lists Charles Gassot, whose name appeared on the copy I am watching. -- Beardo 03:51, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

immortel?
What's with all the "immortel" - The english title is Immortal, and that is also what it says on the print? --IceHunter (talk) 13:29, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Immortal (2004 film)


text:
Talk:Magnetogravity

Modifying
To whomever keeps modifying this page, note: 10 of the 11 references are using magnetogravity to refer to magnetogravity waves which are gravity waves, not gravitational waves, and have nothing to do with changing gravity. Furthemore, the 11th reference from New Scientist does not refer to magnetogravity at all. Instead it refers to a hypothesis which is "a controversial claim because no one has ever provided experimental evidence to support either the existence of extra dimensions or any interaction between gravity and electromagnetism". If you wish to write an article about this controversial claim, do so, but calling it magnetogravity is akin to a neologism. Salsb 18:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

External links, references, and resources
external articles ...

 * Burgess, C. P., et. al., "Resonant origin for density fluctuations deep within the Sun: helioseismology and magneto-gravity waves". ArXiv.org
 * Burgess, C. P., "Probing Solar Magneto-Gravity Waves using Solar Neutrinos, What Can Solar Neutrino Oscillations Tell Us About the Solar Interior?". (PPT format)
 * Hinata, S., "Nonlinear interaction of magnetogravity waves with Alfven and sound waves". Deptment of Physics, Auburn University, USA.
 * Kalkofen, W., "The Nature of the Waves in the Solar Chromosphere". Session 1 - Chromosphere, Corona, Flares. Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.
 * Dellar, Paul, "Dispersive shallow water magnetohydrodynamics". (HTML) Mathematical Institute, University of Oxford. (Abstract -- PDF)
 * Schwartz, R. A. and R. F. Stein, "Waves in the solar atmosphere. IV - Magneto-gravity and acoustic-gravity modes". Astrophysical Journal, vol. 200, Sept. 1, 1975.
 * McAteer, R. T. James, "Long-period chromospheric oscillations in network bright points". The American Astronomical Society. The Astrophysical Journal, March 1, 2002.
 * Inhester, B., "Nonlinear magnetogravity waves in a low-beta plasma". Journal of Geophysical Research (JGR). 1993.
 * Adam, John A., "Steady magnetogravity flow". Quarterly Journal of Mechanics and Applied Mathematics, 1975.
 * McIntosh, S. W., et. al., "An observational manifestation of magneto-gravity waves in internetwork regions of the chromosphere and transition region", Astrophysics Journal of Letters.
 * "Earth's Magnetic Field 'Boosts Gravity'". New Scientist (Print Edition).

J. D. Redding 20:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Magnetogravity


text:
El Camino Real Charter High School

El Camino Real Charter High School (also known locally as "ECR" or "Elco") is an independent charter secondary school located in the Woodland Hills district of the San Fernando Valley region of the city of Los Angeles, California, United States. The school, founded in 1969, was designed to emulate a small college campus, with a large central "quad" and an open campus policy.

ECR serves portions of Woodland Hills and West Hills and also maintains a sizable "traveling" student population from other areas of the district.

ECR's Academic Performance Index was 832 out of 1,000 in 2012.

On March 31, 2009, El Camino Real High School became a California Distinguished School. In December 2010, the teachers and staff at the school voted for it to become a charter school. This change took effect in the fall of 2011.

Demographics
In 1998, the school had 3,315 students enrolled. 5% were African American, 1% American Indian, 15% Asian, 42% White, 29% Latino, 6% Two or more races, 5% English learners, 7% special education students, 43% gifted and talented, 22% economically disadvantaged, and 15% students moving in and out of this school during the year. Over 1,000 of them, as of 1998, were classified as "gifted and talented". Several area parents disliked the LAUSD magnet program points admission system, so they chose to instead move to the ECR attendance zone and enroll their gifted-classified children there.

As of 1998, 70% of ECR graduates went on to colleges and universities, compared to 52% overall for LAUSD.

Academic Decathlon team
The school's Academic Decathlon team won national titles in 1998, 2001, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2014, 2018, 2023, and 2024.

Junior Engineering Technical Society
The Junior Engineering Technical Society (JETS) promoted interest in engineering, science, math and technology in high school students and provides them with real-world engineering teamwork and problem-solving experiences. The team participates in the TEAMS (Test of Engineering Aptitude, Mathematics, and Science) Competition that occurs annually in March and is hosted and sponsored by the Viterbi School of Engineering at the University of Southern California (USC). The Technology Student Association acquired TEAMS from JETS in 2011.

 * In 2006, the ECR JETS Team won second place at the Southern California Regional Varsity Competition, losing first place to Beverly Hills High School by one point.
 * In 2007, the ECR JETS Team again won second place at the Southern California Regional Varsity Competition, increasing their score significantly by 7 points but once again losing first place to Beverly Hills High School by only one point.
 * In 2008, the ECR JETS Team won first place at the Southern California Regional Varsity Competition, defeating rival Beverly Hills High School. El Camino Real also placed second in the state of California, and advanced to the nationals.
 * In 2009, the ECR JETS Team tied second place with another high school at their division. However, the team only received the trophy of the third place because of a random tiebreaker.
 * In 2010, the ECR JETS Team placed first in Regionals and progressed to Nationals.

Notable alumni

 * Jamal Anderson – former NFL All-Pro, running back, Atlanta Falcons
 * Mark Balderas – keyboardist, Human Drama
 * Maggie Bandur – writer/producer; Malcolm in the Middle
 * Orr Barouch – professional soccer player, formerly of the Chicago Fire
 * Paul Beatty – poet/author; first American to win the Mann/Booker Prize in literature for his 2016 novel, The Sellout
 * David Becker – jazz guitarist and composer
 * Jay Bentley – bassist, Bad Religion
 * Kurt Birkins – former Major League Baseball player, Baltimore Orioles, Tampa Bay Rays
 * Alisha Boe – actress, 13 Reasons Why
 * America Ferrera – award-winning actress; Ugly Betty, The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants
 * Sky Ferreira – singer/songwriter
 * Jennifer Flavin – model
 * Blake Gailen – American-Israeli baseball player
 * Brad Garrett – actor, comedian; Everybody Loves Raymond, 'Til Death
 * Marc Germain – radio talk show host
 * Greg Graffin – vocalist, Bad Religion; university lecturer
 * Noah Grossman – cast member of Smosh
 * Brett Gurewitz – guitarist, Bad Religion; founder of Epitaph Records
 * Tiffany Haddish – comedian, actress
 * Jesse James Hollywood – convicted murderer portrayed by Emile Hirsch in the movie Alpha Dog
 * Conor Jackson – former Major League Baseball left fielder/first baseman
 * Nathan Kahane – executive producer; Oldboy, Last Vegas
 * Allan Kennedy – former NFL player, San Francisco 49ers
 * Christopher Knight – actor; Brady Bunch, My Fair Brady
 * Sammi Kane Kraft – actress, Bad News Bears
 * Ryan Lavarnway – American-Israeli Major League Baseball catcher
 * Christy Lemire – film critic
 * Amber Liu – singer, member of South Korean girl group f(x)
 * Ryan McGuire – former Major League Baseball player
 * Alex Mejia – MLB player for the St. Louis Cardinals
 * Joel A. Miller - author; Memoir of a Roadie
 * Christopher Mintz-Plasse – actor; Superbad, Role Models, Kick-Ass
 * Janel Moloney – actress; Donna Moss in The West Wing
 * Angelo Moore – lead singer and multi-instrumentalist for Fishbone
 * Troy Nolan – NFL football player, safety
 * David Oppenheim – professional poker player
 * Sara Paxton – actress, model
 * Elston Ridgle – NFL player, actor (Independence Day, Legion)
 * Sam Sarpong – actor, model, TV host; Tommy Hillfiger, Yo Mamma
 * Mark Saul – actor/musician; Grey's Anatomy, All That, The Social Network
 * Eli Schenkel (born 1992) - Canadian Olympic fencer
 * Mark Schulman – drummer
 * Jonathan Shapiro (writer) – writer/producer; former Assistant U.S. Attorney
 * Ramona Shelburne (born 1979) - sportswriter and softball player
 * Glen Sobel – drummer, Alice Cooper
 * Max Steinberg (1989–2014), American-Israeli IDF lone soldier killed in the 2014 Gaza War
 * Tim Talman – actor
 * Dave Walsh – former Major League Baseball player, Los Angeles Dodgers
 * Jim Wolf – Major League Baseball umpire
 * Randy Wolf – former Major League Baseball pitcher
 * William Zabka – actor, The Karate Kid

title: El Camino Real Charter High School


text:
Talk:Acholi dialect

Examples
Words and phrases below pulled out of the article; this sort of content is better off at Wikibooks or Wikitravel. — mark ✎ 13:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Examples

 * The problem with this sort of deletion is that it is not consistent across Language pages. I have no argument in principle, only that for the users' sake there should be a consistent guideline for contributors and sysops on this matter. --A12n 18:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Acholi language template
If you are a native speaker of Acholi then you can help translate this template into your own language:

Edit

--Amazonien (talk) 20:41, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

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Acoli? Dialect?
Why is it called a "dialect"? Several books cited in references call it a "language".

And why is "Acoli" the spelling in the title? In Ethnologue, the English name and the autonym is "Acholi". --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:02, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Since there weren't any replies, and it seems more sensible to call this "Acholi" and "language", I am moving Acoli dialect to Acholi language and Acoli people to Acholi people. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:25, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * At 22:27, 28 December 2012 moved page Talk:Acholi language to Talk:Acholi dialect – wbm1058 (talk) 13:13, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * At 10:10, 7 July 2018 moved page Talk:Acholi dialect to Talk:Acoli dialect: Too many inconsistencies with the spelling. The correct spelling is ACOLI and not ACHOLI so tried to tidy pages to bring about consistency. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:16, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps you could have read the article? Acholi is a dialect of Luo, mutually intelligible with other dialects. The speakers are ethnically distinct, but that's of little concern for classifying a language. And yes, AFAIK, "Acholi" is the normal spelling in English, so we should be there. — kwami (talk) 20:45, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
 * kwami, I've read the article. In this article, the part that says that it's mutually intelligible is marked as "dubious", the article Southern Luo language barely has any references at all, and a lot of cited books call it a "language". So it is really true that it's a dialect of Luo? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 12:15, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Could be. I have no direct knowledge. I don't remember my source for claiming they're MI, but Ethnologue reports MI between all the branches of Southern Luo. If we're going to revert that (and we should be going off more evidence than just someone adding a 'dubious' tag to a WP article!), then the articles should be revised accordingly, rather than just moving the article and leaving the contradiction for our readers to solve on their own. If you don't want to revise the articles, then there are places where you can ask for them to be corrected, such as Wikiproject Languages. That should go together with any move. — kwami (talk) 00:04, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Acholi dialect


text: Template:Campaignbox American Revolutionary War: Northern 1777


text:
Banjska Monastery

The Banjska Monastery (Manastiri i Banjskës; Манастир Бањска, ) is a Serbian Orthodox monastery in the Banjska village near Zvečan, Kosovo.

The monastery was the site of Banjska attack, an attack carried by Serb militants against Kosovo Police on 24 September 2023.

History
The monastery, along with the Church of St Stephen, was built between 1313 and 1317, founded by Serbian King Stefan Milutin, one of the most powerful rulers of his time and of the Nemanjić dynasty. Milutin built the church as his mausoleum (burial place), and it is where he was first laid to rest. However, following the Battle of Kosovo (1389), his body was moved to Trepča and then in 1460 to Sofia (Bulgaria), where it lies to this day.

The monastery shared the fate of its founder. The monumental building with its church, library, monks' quarters and "imperial palace" began to fall into disrepair very early. At the beginning of the 15th century, a fire destroyed the library and in the second half of the same century, the monastery was probably abandoned. Benedikt Kuprešić, a traveller, mentioned that the monastery was razed to the ground in the 16th century on the orders of the Ottoman Sultan, as Christians who had fled Ottoman tyranny were gathering in it.

St Stephen's, almost totally destroyed, was turned into a mosque in the 19th century and served as such until World War I. The first conservation activity was carried out in 1939 and again in 1990 when the church was partly rebuilt. The monastery is one of the few for which the founding charter has been preserved; it was granted a large estate at its founding, of 75 villages and 8 pastures. As the complex was built as the final resting place of a king, the bishopric was "upgraded" to a stavropegial monastery - roughly translated, an Imperial monastery, fourth by rank in the state (after Studenica, Mileševa and Sopoćani).

The building works were led by Archbishop Danilo II, at that time a bishop, later Serbian Archbishop, who was a close confidant to the king. According to medieval sources, as well as an oral tradition, Banjska was one of the most beautiful Serbian monasteries, built in the Raška architectural style, which was used for all royal mausoleums, from Stefan Nemanja's Studenica monastery to Emperor Dušan's Monastery of the Holy Archangels. The monastery was declared a Monument of Culture of Exceptional Importance in 1990, and was protected by the Republic of Serbia.

On 24 September 2023, the monastery was stormed by a group of 30 armed Serbs who engaged in a violent confrontation with Kosovo Police and barricaded themselves inside, after a Kosovan officer was ambushed and killed hours earlier. After hours, the Kosovo Forces successfully entered the monastery and apprehended the Serb militants ultimately bringing an end to the tense situation.

title: Banjska Monastery


text:
Acid Android

Acid Android (stylized as ACID ANDROID and formerly as acid android) is the solo project of yukihiro, drummer of the Japanese rock band L'Arc-en-Ciel. While yukihiro provides the vocals and many of the instruments himself, he also utilizes many support and guest musicians both in the studio and in live performances. The project is signed to yukihiro's Tracks on Drugs record label. To date Acid Android has released four albums and two mini-albums. The band, in contrast to L'Arc-en-Ciel, uses a harder, faster sound, more stage-lighting and mechanics to further energize their concerts.

History
The band made their debut with a self-titled album in 2002. The EP Faults features Toni Halliday on vocals and appeared in 2003. The album Purification was released in 2006 with other band members contributing to the songs. Two releases appeared in 2010, the album 13:Day:Dream and the seven-track mini album Code. For 2017's D'erlanger Tribute Album ~Stairway to Heaven~, Acid Android covered "After Image" featuring D'erlanger's own Kyo. They covered "Electric Cucumber" for the June 6, 2018 hide tribute album Tribute Impulse.

Members

 * Current
 * yukihiro – vocals, bass, keyboards, synthesizers, sampler (2001–present)
 * Daigo Yamaguchi – drums (2012–present)
 * Kazuya – guitar (2016–present)

 * Former
 * tomo – guitar (2002–2006)
 * antz – guitar (2003–2011)
 * kishi – guitar (2006–2011)
 * Kent – guitar (2012, 2014–2017)
 * Yusuke Kobayashi – guitar (2012–2013, 2017–2018)
 * Yasuo – drums (2006–2012)
 * hiruma – drum machine, synthesizers, sampler (2002–2006)

Studio albums

 * Acid Android (September 25, 2002)
 * Purification (May 5, 2006) Oricon Albums Chart peak: 22
 * 13:Day:Dream (July 13, 2010) 28
 * Garden (2017 Mix: November 24, 2017; 2018 Mix: April 4, 2018) 77

Mini-albums

 * Faults (March 12, 2003) 67
 * Code (October 27, 2010) 46

Singles

 * "Ring the Noise" (September 27, 2001, released under the name "yukihiro") Oricon Singles Chart peak: 9
 * "Let's Dance" (April 5, 2006) 17
 * "The End of Sequence Code" (November 24, 2014, digital-only)
 * "Roses / Ashes" (October 20, 2017, digital-only)

Home videos

 * Acid Android Live 2003 (March 3, 2004)
 * Acid Android Tour 2006 (November 22, 2006)
 * Acid Android Live 2010 (February 23, 2011)
 * Acid Android Live 2011 (December 14, 2011)

title: Acid Android


text:
William Howard Taft Charter High School

William Howard Taft Charter High School is a public school located on the corner of Ventura Boulevard and Winnetka Avenue in the Woodland Hills district of the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles, California, within the Los Angeles Unified School District. The school gained affiliated charter status beginning with the 2013–2014 school year.

History
Named after former U.S. president William Howard Taft, the school first opened in 1960.

It was in the Los Angeles City High School District until 1961, when it merged into LAUSD.

In the 2013–2014 school year, Taft High School became a charter school.

Notable alumni

 * Jeshua Anderson – track and field sprinter
 * Rick Auerbach – MLB shortstop 1971–1981
 * Steve Bartek – musician, Strawberry Alarm Clock, Oingo Boingo
 * Matteo Barzini – Italian filmmaker
 * Justine Bateman – actress, TV series Family Ties
 * Mike Bercovici – college and pro football quarterback
 * Sandra Black - Member of Barack Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers
 * Scott Bloch – Office of Special Counsel
 * Mike Borzello – 5-time World Series champion. Chicago Cubs, Los Angeles Dodgers, New York Yankees
 * Craig Buck – Olympic volleyball player
 * Phil Buckman – musician, actor, and voiceover artist, bass player for Filter
 * Kihei Clark – NCAA champion basketball player at Virginia
 * DeAndre Daniels – professional basketball player, college player at UConn
 * Bryce Dejean-Jones – basketball shooting guard
 * Larry Dierker – MLB pitcher, manager, broadcaster
 * Spencer Dinwiddie – NBA guard for the Los Angeles Lakers
 * Larry Drew II – basketball point guard
 * Eazy-E – rapper, West Coast hip hop
 * Everlast – rapper/singer House of Pain
 * Jordan Farmar – basketball point guard, 2-time NBA champion
 * William Finnegan – Pulitzer Prize winning writer surfing essayist
 * Jeff Fisher – Former NFL player and Tennessee Titans coach from 1995 to 2010, as well as the St. Louis/Los Angeles Rams from 2012 to 2016
 * Char Fontane – actress and singer
 * Barry Green – orchestral and solo double bass player and teacher
 * Guy Hansen – professional baseball pitcher and coach
 * Steve Hartman – sportscaster
 * Ice Cube – rapper, actor, director, producer, Friday, Are We There Yet?, Straight Outta Compton
 * Airabin Justin – NFL and CFL defensive back
 * Gabe Kapler – Former MLB outfielder and current San Francisco Giants manager, 2021 National League Manager of the Year
 * Brad Kearns – professional triathlete, Guinness world record speedgolfer, The New York Times bestselling author
 * Kevin Kennedy – MLB manager and radio-TV baseball commentator
 * Dave Koz – smooth jazz saxophonist, radio personality
 * Lisa Kudrow – actress, TV series Friends
 * Pete LaCock – MLB first baseman and coach
 * Dale Launer – comedy screenwriter
 * Ken Levine – Emmy-winning comedy writer, screenwriter, radio announce and play-by-play commentator
 * Epic Mazur – vocalist, rapper, and record producer
 * Maureen McCormick – actress, TV series The Brady Bunch
 * Danny Boy O’Connor – rapper, House of Pain
 * Susan Olsen – actress, TV series The Brady Bunch
 * Kelly Paris – MLB third baseman
 * Dana Plato – actress, TV series Diff'rent Strokes
 * DaShon Polk – NFL linebacker
 * Paul Pratt – NFL defensive back for Detroit Lions
 * Jordan Roberts -- Screenwriter, Academy Award-winning films, March of the Penguins and Big Hero 6.
 * Malcolm Smith – Super Bowl XLVIII champion and MVP
 * Steve Smith – NFL wide receiver, Super Bowl XLII champion
 * Jan Smithers – actress, TV series WKRP in Cincinnati
 * Jeff Stork – volleyball Hall of Famer, member of 1988 Summer Olympics gold-medal U.S. men's team
 * Kathryn Dwyer Sullivan – NASA Space Shuttle astronaut
 * Michael Thomas – NFL Pro Bowl wide receiver, New Orleans Saints
 * Justin Tryon – NFL cornerback
 * Mark Tulin – musician, founding member of The Electric Prunes
 * Wilmer Valderrama – actor, TV series That '70s Show
 * Holly Beth Vincent – musician, member of Holly and the Italians
 * Duffy Waldorf – professional golfer, member of UCLA Sports Hall of Fame
 * Quincy Watts – athlete, winner of two gold medals at 1992 Summer Olympics
 * Darrion Weems – NFL offensive tackle
 * Jane Wiedlin – musician, singer and original member of band The Go-Go's
 * Brad Wilk – drummer for Rage Against the Machine, Audioslave
 * Antwaun Woods – Nose tackle for the Dallas Cowboys, college Defensive Lineman of the Year in 2016
 * Robin Wright – actress, The Princess Bride, Forrest Gump, House of Cards, Wonder Woman
 * Larry Yount – MLB pitcher
 * Robin Yount – Baseball Hall of Fame player, 19 seasons with Milwaukee Brewers of MLB

In popular culture
There have been a handful of films and TV shows filmed at Taft. The 1976 film The Boy in the Plastic Bubble was filmed at the high school, as well as the films Mask (1985), Crazy, Stupid, Love (2011), The Amazing Spider-Man (2012), The Prom (2020), and the television series Never Have I Ever (2020).

title: William Howard Taft Charter High School


text: Category:University of Szeged

title: Category:University of Szeged


text:
Berners-Lee

Berners-Lee may refer to:

 * Conway Berners-Lee (1921–2019), British mathematician and computer scientist, father of Mike and Tim Berners-Lee
 * Mike Berners-Lee (born 1964), English researcher and writer on greenhouse gases
 * Tim Berners-Lee (born 1955), British engineer and computer scientist, known for his creation of the World Wide Web

title: Berners-Lee


text:
User:Chriscurtis

[ " Unity can create miracles, but only willingness will get you there ! "- Chris Curtis / Live 8 ]
~ About ChriS ~ Full name: Chris Constantinos Curtis

Date of birth: 1983 /Jan 23

Age:22

Nick name: Crispy or Butter face

Hometown:Athens ,Greece

Astrological Sign: Aquarius

Height: 6.4

Weight: 165 pounds

Hair color: brown

Eye color:brown

Vocal range : 4 Octaves

Parents : Roger and Dora

Brother :Alex

Sister :Clio

Favorite food: Italian, seafood ,Thai and Chris loves Mcdonald's french fries.

Favorite color: Orange

Favorite clothes : Armani ,Gap ,Massimo Dutti ,Fubu ,Pull and Bear.

Favorite trainning shoes : Nike

Favorite Hair Gel: L'oreal the[ out of bed ] style.

Favorite animals : Dogs, Dolphins

The Dogs Chris likes : Bulldog, Yorkshire , Airedale terrier , German shepard.

>> The Chris Curtis Diet:

Breakfast : All bran with Soy milk or 2 fried eggs with ground beef.

Lunch : grilled chicken fillet with salad or a nice juicy steak with broccoli finished with a great cajun sause on top.

Dinner : prawn Salad with Italian dressing or sushi. [ no mayonaise ]

Desert : [Rarely] Apple crumble, Mars bar or cheese cake from 'The Cheese Cake Factory'

Snack : Fat free pop corn

Favorite cold drink : Vanilla frappuccino from Starbucks !

Thoughts on acting : [ When I watch movies like Chicago ,The Others, The Client ,High crimes ,and Phone booth , It really encourages me to act ! ]

Favorite Female actors : Ashley Judd, Meg Ryan ,Susan Surandon ,Liz Hurley ,Nicole Kidman ,Catherine Zeta Jones.

Favorite Male actors : Anthony Hopkins ,Richard Gere ,Morgan Freeman ,Adam Sandler, Martin Lawrence.

^Hobbies: Singing, dancing, reading novels, shopping at the mall, hanging out with his friends and idyllic days at the beach Best hangout: watching friends with his close friends.

Favorite sports : kick boxing ,soccer ,diving.

^ Hopes for the future: to really make it like Michael Jackson and do a single with Mariah Carey

title: User:Chriscurtis


text:
1991 in rail transport

April

 * April 7 – The Empire Connection opens in New York City, allowing Amtrak trains from Upstate New York to reach Pennsylvania Station. Scheduled Amtrak service to Grand Central Terminal ends.
 * April 25 – Monterrey Metro Line 1, A first section of San Bernabé to Exposición route officially regular operation service to start in Nuevo León, Mexico.

June

 * June 1 – The last remaining Trans Europ Express trains operate for the last time on this date. However, TEE service was revived on one route in 1993 (and then lasted until 1995).
 * June 25 – Croatian Railways (Hrvatske željeznice) formed.
 * June – The Tōhoku Shinkansen in Japan is extended from Ueno Station to Tokyo Station.

July

 * July 16 – Indian Railways inaugurates the Lifeline Express (Jeevan Rekha) hospital train.
 * July 29 – The European Council adopts directive 91/440/CEE relating to the development of European railroads.

September

 * September 18 – The last train out of Mahone Bay, Nova Scotia, departs with six Canadian National Railway diesel locomotives pulling 64 railroad cars and caboose number 79822.
 * September – A 400 Series Shinkansen train sets a speed record of 345 km/h (214.4 mph) on the Jōetsu Shinkansen line between Tokyo and Niigata, Japan.

October

 * October 15–20 – Following passage of the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991, five high-speed rail corridors are designated for the first time in the United States: The Midwest, Florida, California, the Southeast, and the Pacific Northwest. However, funding for these projects would remain elusive until $8 billion was released in 2010 under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009.

November

 * November 29 – In Tokyo, Japan, the Namboku Line is opened between Akabane-iwabuchi and Komagome.

December

 * December 10 – The Toei Oedo Line is opened from Nerima to Hikarigaoka in Tokyo, Japan.
 * December 12 – Amtrak and the California Department of Transportation (Caltrans) begin the Capitols passenger rail route (later renamed Capitol Corridor), connecting the Sacramento region of the Central Valley with Oakland and San Jose in the San Francisco Bay Area.
 * December 26 (and further) – After dissolution of the USSR several national railways were formed.
 * December 30 – The Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine issues a decree on to build the new underground metro system in Donetsk.

Unknown date

 * TrailerTrain changes its name to the TTX Company.
 * The Richmond, Fredericksburg and Potomac Railroad is merged into CSX Transportation.
 * Ferrocarriles Argentinos, the state railway system of Argentina, is split with the metropolitan lines around Buenos Aires becoming Ferrocarriles Metropolitanos and most of the remaining lines becoming Belgrano Cargas.
 * Railroad Development Corporation first invests in the Iowa Interstate Railroad.
 * Baikal–Amur Mainline declared complete.

Accidents

 * January 8 – Cannon Street station rail crash at Cannon Street station in London kills two.
 * May 14 – The Shigaraki train disaster occurred in Shigaraki (now Kōka), Shiga Prefecture, Japan. A Shigaraki Kohgen Railway (SKR) train and a West Japan Railway Company (JR West) train collided head-on, killing 42 people and injuring 614 others.
 * May 25 – A Class 43 high-speed train from Newquay to London Paddington on the Atlantic Coast Line derails in the Luxulyan Valley.
 * July 21 – Newton (South Lanarkshire) rail accident killed 4 people at Newton station south east of Glasgow, Scotland.

title: 1991 in rail transport


text:
July 12 (Eastern Orthodox liturgics)

July 11 - Eastern Orthodox Church calendar - July 13

All fixed commemorations below are celebrated on July 25 by Old Calendar.

For July 12th, Orthodox Churches on the Old Calendar commemorate the Saints listed on June 29.

Saints

 * Saint Veronica, the woman with the issue of blood who was healed by the Savior (1st century)
 * Martyr Serapion the New, at Alexandria (194-211)   (see also: July 13)
 * Martyrs Proclus and Hilary, of Ancyra (2nd century)
 * Martyrs Andrew the Commander, Heraclius, Faustus, Menas, and those with them.  (see also: August 31)
 * Great-martyr Mamas, whose synaxis near Sigma we celebrate.
 * Martyr Golinduc, in holy baptism Mary, of Persia (591)  (see also: July 13)
 * Venerables John (998) and Gabriel (10th century) of Georgia and Iveron, Mt. Athos.
 * Venerable Michael Maleinus, spiritual father of Saint Athanasius of Athos (962)
 * Martyrs Theodore of Kiev and his son John, the Varangians, at Kiev (983)

Pre-Schism Western saints

 * Saint Hermagoras of Aquileia, and his deacon Fortunatus, martyrs under Nero (c.66)
 * Saint Paulinus of Antioch, and Companions (c. 67)
 * Saint Marciana, a virgin-martyr venerated in Toledo in Spain (c. 303)
 * Saints Nabor and Felix, martyrs in Milan in Italy under Diocletian (c. 304)
 * Saint Paternian, Bishop of Bologna in Italy (c. 470)
 * Saint Viventiolus, a monk at St Oyend in France who became Archbishop of Lyons (524)
 * Saint Proculus, Bishop of Bologna in Italy (540-542), martyred by the Goths (542)
 * Saint Menulphus (Menou), born in Ireland, he became Bishop of Quimper in Brittany (7th century)
 * Saint Ansbald of Prüm, in Germany (886)

Post-Schism Orthodox saints

 * Blessed Serapion of Vladimir, Bishop of Vladimir (1275)
 * Saint Arsenius of Novgorod, Fool-for-Christ (1570)
 * Monk-martyr Simon (Symeon), founder of Volomsk Monastery, Vologda (1641)
 * Venerable Paisios the Athonite (1994) (New Style only, Old Style date June 29, see: June 29 )

Other commemorations

 * Icon of the Most Holy Theotokos "Of the Three Hands" of Hilandar, Mt. Athos. (see also: December 4 and June 28 )
 * Icon of the Most Holy Theotokos of Prodromos Skete, Mt. Athos, of Voronezh and of Jackson, California (7th century)
 * Translation of the relics (1620) of St. Anthony of Leokhnov, founder of Leokhnovo Monastery, Novgorod (1611)
 * Translation of the relics (2004) of New Hieromartyr Momcilo Grgurevic of Serbia (1940s)
 * Repose of Hieromonk Daniel (Fomin) of Optina and Sorochinsk (1953)

title: July 12 (Eastern Orthodox liturgics)


text:
Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/DandelionMacro

Dandelion Macro
Reasons:
 * it a big, clear and beautiful image
 * it's licensed under free license
 * (added later) the house in background shows that a such beautiful thing is near us

It appears in Dandelion article and was shot by me (Paulnasca).

 * Nominate and support. - Paulnasca 18:49, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Although most people have only seen dandelions within the vicinity of their own homes, I'm sure people are going to oppose the picture for having a house in the background. -- brian0918 ™  19:29, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. It looks amazing! Compared to the other photos at dandelion, this one has a special colour that's hard to describe. --Menchi 21:14, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreee, it's just the right color. Interestingly Image:Dandelion_clock.jpg is a featured picture at the commons... Circeus 13:13, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * Oppose - I agree that the dandelion itself is striking, but the background is less than appealing. Sango  123  18:09, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Photoshop, anyone? Lupin 02:32, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Photoshop out the background!? A bit hard... Enochlau 03:06, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * You could manually blur the background more (being careful not to blur the edges of the dandelion), then use the heal brush to remove some of the details, such as the windows. -- brian0918 ™  [[Image:MontyPythonFootLeftSmall.jpg|Ni!|20px]] 23:04, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I know, I'm not a photographer, so perhaps I'm wrong, but the background is, for me, one of the attractive things about this photo. It's a flower in its real setting, not in some carefully staged neutral zone, and the background is not at all distracting to me.  Trying to blur and remove the background seems to me something like taking a picture of the Houses of Parliament from the opposite side of the Thames, and then working to get Westminster Abbey out of the shot -- that's the environment (or context, if you will) in which the HoP exist.  Backyards, in my (allergic) experience, are littered with these sneeze-inducing yet attractive little flowers, and I don't see that this is anything to be rid of.  Just my two cents, Jwrosenzweig 23:10, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Support -- I like it. The background adds to the overall beauty of the image, showing the flower in a natural environment. - Longhair | Talk 07:33, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Support No qualms to have about the background IMHO Circeus 12:26, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

 +10 / -7 -- Solipsist 19:47, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Support I love the house. In my reading of the image, the dandelion, something that we think of as small and barely worthy of notice, is magnified and transformed into thing of beauty, while the house, a thing we find vital and interesting, is shoved into the blurry background which makes it impossible to focus on. Whether the photographer intended it to or not, this image makes a statement about the relative value of these items in a striking way. (See what being married to an art historian can do to you.) Dsmdgold 02:52, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I am of the other opinion that the house and background are distracting. The house and the tree act to create a disbalance that is uncomfortable to look at. Enochlau 03:19, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Support - The house looks fairly attractive and is well blurred. Dandelions are common in house gardens (at least in mine!) so the house is not out of context - Adrian Pingstone 06:50, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose the background is distracting, it's by no way a beautiful Bokeh, it's by no way a natural environment and this pic show a terrific barrel distortion. Ericd 23:24, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * ( + ) Support Good photo, bokeh is fine and the distortion is only visible on the tree trunk. --Fir0002 06:40, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Look at the left of the pic... And BTW, the ground isn't horizontal. Ericd 15:21, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I like it. The house takes nothing away. This link is Broken 20:26, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose This is very nice, the colours are excellent. I don't mind the house in the background, though it would be better if the horizon was straightened. However the FP standard on flowers is quite high, and other good dandelions are available on Commons, for example Image:Taraxacum-zoom.jpg. -- Solipsist 08:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The flower in the candidate picture looks much better than Image:Taraxacum-zoom.jpg, probably because of the angle. Thue | talk 19:54, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I would agree with you on the angle. You've got the better lighting too, and there is something to be said for a background that gives an urban context. On the other hand the symmetry and detail in the Taraxacum-zoom.jpg photo are rather nice. There is a temptation to replace Image:Dandilion plant.jpg in the Dandilion article, but despite its small size, it perhaps does the best job of at showing a dandilion how most people find them - growing between the cracks of some concrete. Plus it illustrates the leaves. -- Solipsist 20:54, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Excellent color, sharpness and bokeh. Alight 15:41, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Very sharp, context is shown well. — Stevey7788 (talk) 21:06, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Solipsist. The background is also a bit distracting for me. --Spangineer (háblame)  08:26, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * support per Dsmdgold. Djadek 19:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Support TomStar81 00:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose --ScottyBoy900Q ∞ 20:59, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose It took me a while to decide but i too think the background is too prominent. It definitely draws your eye from the flower (despite the art historian liking it above ;-). Do you, Paulnasca, have anything for the same flower without the house in the background ?  David D. 21:36, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't have another picture with the same flower Paulnasca


text: Template:Campaignbox American Revolutionary War: Southern