text:
Talk:Pretty Boy Floyd

Gang Torpedo
The term 'gang torpedo' is quite colorful, and I would like to understand and be able to use it. Unfortunately I can find no explanation nor definition on the web. If possible, please explain/address. --BooksXYZ (talk) 15:21, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

 * Undefined and unexplained for nearly two years, so have replaced with "gang member" which is a more readily explicable term. Euryalus (talk) 10:11, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

The Kansas City Massacre
That section of this article ticks me off for a number of reasons, which I will show below: The section is reprinted, my comments are in parenthesis.

Floyd and Richetti were alleged to have been Miller's accomplices. Factors weighing against them included their apparent presence in Kansas City at the time, eyewitness identifications, Richetti's fingerprint said to have been recovered from a beer bottle at Miller's hideout, an underworld account naming Floyd and Richetti as the gunmen, and perhaps most importantly, Hoover's firm advocacy of their guilt. (So, that's what this article (just like the Dillinger one) is all really all about, make the lawman Hoover look like a bad guy and make Floyd, a viscous criminal, look good and thus celebrate criminality.)

Fellow bank robber Alvin Karpis, an acquaintance of Floyd's, claimed that Floyd confessed involvement to him, but no one else has corroborated Karpis' story. (Says who? How do you know "no one else"? Where are the sources for all these wild accusations?)

On the other side of the issue, the bandit alleged to have been Floyd was supposed to have been wounded by a gunshot to the shoulder in the attack, and Floyd's body showed no sign of this injury when examined later. (If it was a shallow injury or a glancing blow, it could have been cleaned up very quickly and covered up rather easily. Or maybe the person misidentified someone who got really did get shot as Floyd. One minor eyewitness mistake in the midst of a violent and chaotic situation hardly is evidence that Floyd was not there.)

The underworld account identifying Floyd and Richetti as the killers was offset by equally unreliable underworld accounts proclaiming their innocence or identifying others. (Says who? And what right do you have to deem whose accounts are reliable or not? You're stating an opinion as a fact.)

The Floyd family has maintained that while Floyd owned up to many other crimes, he vehemently denied involvement in this one, as did Richetti. (So? The words of family are hardly unbiased evidence.)

It has also been contended that this crime would have been inconsistent with Floyd's other criminal acts, as he was not otherwise known as a hired gun or (especially) a hired killer. (Yeah, because criminals never do anything unpredictable and/or never break from their proclaimed "morality.")

(Yeah, that was a real unbiased section. Everything on the "Floyd was there argument" was quicklyundermined by "yeah, but" statements and immediate rebuttals (sometimes in the very same sentence!) while the "Floyd was innocent and the evil Hoover lied" sides arguments are treated at face value, not given any counter-arguments, and repeated as if it were complete unequivocal fact.)

However, shortly after the attack, Kansas City police received a postcard dated June 30, 1933, from Springfield, Missouri, which read: "Dear Sirs- I- Charles Floyd- want it made known that I did not participate in the massacre of officers at Kansas City. Charles Floyd" The police department believed the note to be genuine. (Says who? And why did they "believe" is genuine? How could they have arrived at such concrete acceptance from some brief writing on a freaking postcard? Again, where are the sources for all of these left field weird claims?)

Floyd also reportedly denied involvement in the massacre to the FBI agents who had fatally wounded him. (Blatantly false. Nobody at the scene has ever reported Floyd saying any such thing. And also we're supposed to believe that in the midst of dying this bastard's, who had killed many men, first thought was trying to clear the air about one such incident?)

In addition, a recent book on the massacre attributes at least some of the killing to friendly fire by a lawman who was unfamiliar with his weapon, based on existing ballistic information. (Well, what makes the author of the book a ballistics expert? Any idiot with a bare minimum/shallow knowledge of ballistics can pump out a impressive looking but meaningless quantity of plausible sounding techno babble to make his or her case about what ballistics 'evidence' shows, and equally ignorant people will insipidly assume that since the author sounds like they know what they are talking about and have so much info that it must be valid. That fact that someone scribbled together a book claiming something means zippo. And more anti-cop/anti Hoover smears: now we're supposed to believe that the FBI back then were too stupid to use their own weapons.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.59.37 (talk) 06:49, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

A recent book?
While discussing the Kansas City Massacre, "A recent book...", is this referring to the book by Bryan Burrough, can't we mention that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.224.153.158 (talk) 05:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

killed people for using his nickname?
The current revision contains the claims

"He hated it enough that he killed two men just for calling him 'Pretty Boy,' and his dying words were 'I'm Charles Arthur Floyd!'"

Does anybody have a source for these? They sound like legends. Uucp 18:04, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

 * This is legend, not fact. I'm rewording the passage accordingly. Hiddekel  04:59, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

There is a bed and breakfast in East Liverpool, Ohio, housed in the funeral home where Pretty Boy Floyd was embalmed. It's called Sturgis House and is run by town funeral director Frank Dawson. It has Pretty Boy Floyd memoriabilia. http://sturgishouse.com/was

... what?
Could someone please explain to me what
 * Ludacris ft. Pharrel. -Money maker

means in the context of this article? Cactus Wren 23:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Birth
This section starts by referring to Floyd the individual, but then the section uses word "they" (There they lived on the street until Charles was about ten years old. They then moved to the Cookson Hills of Oklahoma). Who's "they"? His family? This wording should be clarified. 0xDEADC0DE hrwfghfvhvwyrgrqeyyegwfegwkfuyqwdurwdugggw5645w1848

Removal of Citation Notice
I see another editor removed the citation notice - having sourced most of the article, I agree with this, does anyone disagree? Stillstudying 12:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Floyd's Arrest record

 * Floyd's arrest record dated from 1925 to 1930 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.53.145.203 (talk) 19:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The public's account of his death?
While i was reading this article it said that there were three sides of the story concerning his death, the FBI, the local police, and the public that were present at the time of his death. Well after reading the rest of the section i did not see any mention of what the publics account was and how it differed from the rest. The article did a great job of differentiating between the FBI and the local police but why mention the local residents side if it wont be brought up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.5.10.137 (talk) 05:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

That's because there was no "public version", the FBI "story" is what happened. And the fact is that Smith was the only officer who made the 'cold-blooded murder' claims and this was after changing his story twice. As for the rest of the local police, their reports are freely available online and back up the FBI, so there is also no "local police" version only a discredited Officer Smith 'version' in which he tries to make himself look more involved than he was.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.59.37 (talk) 06:19, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

 * If the local police reports were available and indeed do "back up the FBI," this is yet another example of Time Magazine mistakes. There are so many errors in this periodical that it makes me wonder if they're a worthwhile source for Wikipedia.TL36 (talk) 23:34, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

My fathers recollection of the Pretty Boy Gang in Bowling Green, Ohio and the killing of Patroman Castner
In 1931 my father, John Bullis, managed a Sohio Gas Station at the corner of Prospect and Wooster streets in Bowling Green, Ohio. One day, he noticed a suspicious group of men walking past the gas station and turning the corner to head south on Prospect street. He commented to his workmates that "there goes a suspicious bunch of guys who are definitely not from around here"!! They were, of course, the Pretty Boy Floyd gang and moments later the confrontation with Bowling Green Police took place one block down the street where Patrolman Castner was killed. My father and his workers never heard the gun shots because there was a loud air compressor in the station which drowned out the sound. He was alerted to what had happened when the emergency vehicles came racing around the corner towards the location of the gun fight.

John Bullis, Jr. jhbullis@hotmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.236.114 (talk) 11:16, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Vanished?
Quote: His father had been killed by a neighbor, Jim Mills, who was acquitted but "vanished".

What does this insinuate -- that Mills got the hell out, or that our boy Floyd "took care of him"? Fixed him up real good .... if you know what I mean (taps nose) ... Maikel (talk) 17:28, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

What hasn't been put into the wiki page on Pretty Boy Floyd.
I have heard stories from my family about Pretty Boy Floyd.

They knew him personally and he fathered some of my great cousin's children.

My great grandmother, I believe on my grandfather's side. Despised him because he drank, smoked, and gambled. She use to beat him with a wooden spoon for cussing. This all happened in Arkansas.

From my family's accounts, my cousin whom he had children with dyed his hair cotton candy pink because he was fleeing the police.

After he thought the heat died down, he convinced my grandfather and his brothers to rob a train that was coming through.

Before they could rob the train they were apprehended, my great grandmother called the police on them.

My grandfather and Pretty Boy Floyd, we're put in a cell together, and my gradfather said the police harrassed him about his pink hair.

 * Interesting recollections. His son, Jack Floyd worked at the Oaks Cardroom in Oakland, CA in the late 1980s and probably beyond. I believe he was under 10 when his father was killed. Jack seemed like a very nice fellow.--Jrm2007 (talk) 21:07, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Jrm2007 and 24.99.240.92 I have a black and white photo of Pretty Boy Floyd and his hair is beached white or blonde, but it could be cotton candy pink. Send me your emails and I will send you the pic. OSMOND PHILLIPS (talk) 04:51, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Iam Christoher A Brewer he is my great great uncle. My grandmother is around 71. she told me when she was your they used to hide him in the house. or other places —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.240.92 (talk) 10:17, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Truth
To set the record straight Charles Floyd only fathered one child, Charles Dempsey Floyd (aka Jack) with Ruby Hardgraves. Jack is my grandfather and Pretty Boy Floyd is my great grandfather. Why is there no info about his son or wife. They where a huge part of his life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.141.205.8 (talk) 01:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC) My dad was Jack's friend when they lived outside of Bixby, Oklahoma. He would hunt for Jack and his mother. Jack and my dad worked as kids for my grandfather. He was a sharecropper until he made enough to buy land outside of Oaks Indian Mission, Oklahoma. Years ago my dad received a letter and poster from him about a book that he wrote. The letter is postmarked from Oakland, CA. I flew into the airport near Rogers, Arkansas to see my dad after he fell and broke his leg. He was at University of Arkansas Hospital. My mom brought the poster and letter for me to copy. The nurses made copies for me and read the letter. The poster was copied too but had to make the poster in sections of 8 by 11 papers. They all were in his room asking all types of questions. My dad told me he never saw him. The letter was a really heartfelt letter say the jack and his mom would have starved if not for my dad hunting for his family and Jack's family. He wrote of my Grandfather being upset that my dad would go to Jack's house to give them food after being told not to go there. They lived besides each other farms. My dad told me it was because there were cops and agents always staking their house out. It also has a story about them playing tennis with a piece of lumber and swatting bumblebees at each other. My dad was born in 1925. His name is Claudus Davis. Just seeing if he told your dad about my dad. I need to find the letter. It was about 10 pages long. I live in Kentucky after retiring from the military. My email account is Gld5818.gd@gmail.com just thought if Kack was your grandfather you might like a copy of this letter. Our families were so poor back then. My grandfather was in the military then worked as lawman out of Texas before the depression took its toll. I was trying to contact you directly but I couldn't figure it out. Haha. Computer Science major...haha later Gary... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gld5818 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Conflict in timeline
How could Floyd have served a sentence of five years from 1925 but have faced arrest in 1929? He would have had to have had a time machine. Captainbeefart (talk) 11:27, 22 October 2010 (UTC) you're right; he only served 3 1/2 years, tho he was sentenced to 5 -- i've corrected that paragraph159.245.32.2 (talk) 23:37, 18 March 2012 (UTC)klu

The Floyd Legend
The Floyd legend is of a man who gave farm families money, shredded mortgages when robbing banks, helped homeless people, and was sheltered by farmers who loved him - such as in the Woody Guthrie song. I don't know if that stuff is true or not, but shouldn't it be mentioned in the article -even to debunk, if necessary - since that's what people associate with Pretty Boy Floyd?Carlo (talk) 05:19, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Yeah, that's what I came here looking for. --Zaurus (talk) 12:14, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Anachronism
Under "Life of Crime": "Three years later he was arrested for a payroll robbery on September 16, 1925 in St. Louis, Missouri and served five years in prison.[1][2][3]"

But then, two paragraphs later, "In 1929, he faced numerous arrests.". By this time, wouldn't he have still been serving in prison? If those five years included the parole, it should have been broken down. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tyrambo (talk • contribs) 07:07, 14 December 2011 (UTC) he is not preaty

REAL Legacy
Flyoud's REAL legacy is how many banks he robbed and how many people he killed. These should be mentioned somehow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.102.2.26 (talk) 23:11, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

History.com says hooker gave Pretty Boy his nickname.
I noticed the article says it was some other man. History.com is pretty good at getting the facts right. Here's the link to it and at the time I wrote this, it's in the 3rd paragraph, 2nd sentence. Maybe someone wants to address that. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 12:22, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Son caught embezzling from employer?
Just recently, a former dealer from the Oaks card room in Emeryville CA asserted that jack Floyd, his son, was caught but not prosecuted for stealing cash from the place. Can't substantiate this but interesting if true.Jrm2007 (talk) 01:45, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Not Guilty
He was a former employee of The Oaks Club and was wrongly accused of the theft. This was taken to trial and Jack was found NOT GUILTY! Jack was also awarded a wrongful conviction compensation by the court for being wrongly accused. The guilty one was a man that went by the name of Puerto Rican Mike. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.89.227.185 (talk) 22:10, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Source 4
Source 4 is a dead link, and I can't find an archived version, anybody know where we can find it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.248.106.100 (talk) 13:37, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

I just cut out
this neat little detail because it really needs some source. If someone has that story written out it could be used as a reference. Maybe. Carptrash (talk) 20:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
 * "Whether or not he actually participated in the crime, Floyd was in Kansas City at the time of the Massacre -- and hid out at a safe house in the North End. Never one to neglect his appearance, Floyd sent for a "trustworthy" local barber to come over and give him a haircut while he hid out."

External links modified
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I have just modified 5 external links on Pretty Boy Floyd. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140701112341/http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/history/famous-cases/kansas-city-massacre-pretty-boy-floyd to https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/history/famous-cases/kansas-city-massacre-pretty-boy-floyd
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140701112341/http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/history/famous-cases/kansas-city-massacre-pretty-boy-floyd to https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/history/famous-cases/kansas-city-massacre-pretty-boy-floyd
 * Added tag to http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,948770,00.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20091018_12_A1_Becaus425269
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091027153907/http://geocities.com/Nashville/3448/pretty.html to https://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/floyd/floyd.htm
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/outlaws/floyd/9.html

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Floyd in Dick Tracy
Twice Chester Gould modeled killers after Floyd; One was Flattop Jones; the other was a 1935 bank robber/killer Cutie Diamond (Gould in drawing the death scene of Cutie Diamond ironically calls him the "Robin Hood of the Ozarks" an echo of how the real life Charles Arthur Floyd (in reality a remorseless Bank robber and suspected killer in ten murders [including an ex-oklahoma Sherriff; 2 Ohio police officers, and a US Govt Alcohol Prohibition Agent] was actually viewed by the some members of the public as a modern day "Robin Hood of the Cookson Hills"of Oklahoma)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.138.11 (talk) 23:38, 16 December 2020 (UTC) As a DICK TRACY fan and continuity expert,I can confirm that Flattop was based on Pretty Boy Floyd.Chester Gould mentioned that he was falsely worshipped as "Robin Hood" by uneducated locals.In the 1980's,a different Tracy writer,Max Allan Collins;did a flashback to BEFORE Tracy&Flattop met,implicating him in "The Kansas City Massacre".Collins also said Flattop began his career as a bank robber,but switched to the "safer" job of contract killing when he had to go underground/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.23.5.11 (talk) 18:43, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Namesake
There is a convict and escapee in Mississippi who also uses or has been given the name Pretty Boy Floyd. I don't know if this is worth mentioning in the article. I got confused when I saw the new guy's name because I had remembered P.B.F. as an old time gangster, correctly as it turned out. 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 02:29, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pretty Boy Floyd


text:
User:Quase

wikipedia.org@quase.us

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Quase


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stageline

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Joyous (talk) 21:36, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Stageline
Promotion for a product line by same company. Maybe some rough editing could do something of it. Feydey 18:06, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Article is primarily composed of useless jargon and is fundamentally promotional in nature. Even extensive editing would only yield a more thickly veiled product advertisement. This page ought to be deleted. Yablohimself 18:33, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete, advertising. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:05, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Sure sounds like an add.  Vegaswikian 00:47, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Suddenly There's a Valley

"Suddenly There's a Valley" is a popular song written by Chuck Meyer and Biff Jones and published in 1955.

The song was a major hit for Gogi Grant (one of only two major ones she had, and one of three that charted for her) in 1955. Her recording was issued by Era Records as catalog number 1003 and reached Billboard's Top 100 chart, peaking at No. 9.

On the Cash Box Best-Selling Record chart, where all versions were combined, the song reached No. 8.

Other notable recordings

 * Jo Stafford – recorded August 12, 1955 (Columbia Records catalog number 40559). This reached No. 16 in Billboard's Top 100 chart.
 * Bing Crosby – recorded November 23, 1955, with Buddy Cole and His Orchestra for Decca Records.
 * Patty Andrews – recorded for Capitol Records. Charted at No. 69 on Billboard Top 100 in November 1955.
 * Julius La Rosa (Cadence Records catalog number 1270) (1955). This also charted reaching No. 29 in Billboard's Top 100.
 * The Mills Brothers – recorded September 1, 1955, for Decca Records (catalog No. 29686). This also hit the Billboard Top 100 although it is not listed as a best-seller by Cashbox.
 * Petula Clark had a Top Ten hit in the 1955 UK Singles Chart with her version. It was her third hit single. It competed in the chart with a version by Lee Lawrence, which peaked at No. 14.
 * Edith Piaf recorded a French-language version, "Soudain une vallée", in February 1956 which outsold all previous versions of the song in Europe, but she never performed it on stage.
 * Vera Lynn recorded a German version on 1 December 1955 under the title "Folge dem Rat deines Herzens (Follow your heart's advice)", and it was released as a single in early 1956 on Decca (D 18 172).
 * Jane Froman – included on her album Faith (1956).
 * Dorsey Burnette – included in his album Tall Oak Tree (1960).
 * The Drifters – as the B-side to their single "I Count the Tears" on Atlantic Records. (1960).
 * Andy Williams – included on his album The Village of St. Bernadette (1960).
 * The Kingsmen Quartet used the song on a gospel album of the same name in 1971.
 * Reba McEntire recorded the song on her 1980 country album Feel the Fire.
 * Glen Campbell recorded the song on his 1989 gospel album Favorite Hymns.

title: Suddenly There's a Valley


text:
Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil

Wakil Ahmad Muttawakil Abdul Ghaffar (born 1971) is an Afghan politician who has been a member of the militant Taliban organization. He was the Taliban foreign minister from 27 October 1999 in their first Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan rule, until the Taliban were deposed in late 2001. Prior to this, he served as spokesman and secretary to Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban. After the Northern Alliance, accompanied by U.S. and British forces, ousted the regime, Muttawakil surrendered in Kandahar to government troops.

In 2005, he announced that he would be a candidate in the elections for the House of the People.

Early life
Muttawakil is originally from Keshkinakhud in Maywand District, Kandahar Province. He is not known for being a mujahed in the 1980s Soviet invasion, but his father, Abdul Ghafar Barialai, is an extremely famous Pashto poet in southern Afghanistan and was killed during Taraki's rule. He belongs to the Kakar tribe.

Taliban
In the early period of the Taliban movement, Muttawakil, who had been a madrasa student under Mohammed Omar, served as Omar's companion, driver, food taster, translator and secretary. He progressed to being his official spokesman, communicating with the press, foreign diplomats and aid agencies. He was appointed foreign minister on 27 October 1999, replacing Mohammad Hasan Akhund, and remained in that position until the Taliban were deposed in late 2001.

According to the BBC, in July 2001 Muttawakil was told by Tohir Yo'ldosh, leader of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, that al-Qaeda was planning to launch a huge attack within the United States. Muttawakil was worried that this would lead to the American military retaliating against Afghanistan. He sent an envoy to meet a US diplomat in Peshawar, Pakistan, to warn of the plan and to urge the US to launch a military attack on al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, but US officials were skeptical about the information. The aide also warned United Nations officials. Al-Qaeda used hijacked airliners to attack the United States on September 11, 2001.

Defection from the Taliban
In October 2001, the month following al Qaeda's attacks in the USA, Muttawakil was reported to be in Pakistan. According to the BBC, some rumors said he was trying to negotiate an end to the American aerial bombardment of Afghanistan and suggesting the Taliban hand over Bin Laden. Muttawakil was reported to have had a 90-minute meeting with Lieutenant General Ehsan ul Haq, the head of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate. He was rumored to have asked General Haq to lobby United States Secretary of State Colin Powell, that an American ceasefire would allow moderate elements within the Taliban, like Muttawakil, to push Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar to abandon Bin Laden.

On October 15, 2001, it was reported that Muttawakil had arrived in the United Arab Emirates in order to defect from the Taliban. UAE officials denied this report. The BBC confirmed that Muttawakil had surrendered, after two weeks of negotiation, in early February 2002. Abdullah Abdullah, the minister who held the same portfolio in Hamid Karzai's Afghan Transitional Authority as Muttawakil had held under the Taliban, stated that Muttawakil should stand trial for war crimes.

Detention
Fazal Mohammad, detained on suspicion of being a former Taliban commander, was released from American custody for medical reasons in mid-2002. He reported that he had been held in American custody in Kandahar with about 300 other captives, including Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil, and two of his former deputies, Khirullah Khairkhwa, and Abdul Hai Mutmaen. He reported that they were fed starvation rations, their wounds were left untreated, and that captives were subjected to sexual abuse, and attacks from dogs.

The BBC reported on October 8, 2003 that Muttawakil had recently been released from eighteen months of detention in Bagram, and had returned to his family's home in Kandahar. Muttawakil is reported to have said:

"I'm good, the police provide security for me, some police forces are guarding my house."

On July 4, 2005, the BBC reported that Muttawakil spent the three years after his surrender in US detention and under Afghan house arrest. Following the end of his house arrest Muttawakil took positions at odds with those of the former Taliban regime. He said he no longer opposed female education, so long as it was consistent with Afghan culture. And he said that supporting Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda had brought suffering to Afghanistan. But he still defended some other aspects of the Taliban's former policies.

Disowned by the Taliban
On October 21, 2003, the Taliban disowned Muttawakil. The BBC was told by a Taliban spokesman that Muttawakil "does not represent our will".

In 2003, Muttawakil's location and status was a matter for speculation. The BBC reported that he had been released from detention from the United States Bagram Theater Detention Facility.

The BBC also reported that the US was guarding him, for his own protection, at their base in Kandahar. It reported that aides to Muttawakil had asserted that the USA had given Muttawakil two choices: join the Karzai government as a spokesman and adviser to the Afghan president; or seek political asylum in a Western country. However, the aides said, Muttawakil wanted to take a break from involvement in Afghan politics, and, if he were to seek asylum, he would wish to do so in an Arab country.

Present
Muttawakil ran for parliamentary elections in September 2005.

W.A. Muttawakil's brother Maulvi Jalil Ahmed was for six years a cleric in the city of Quetta, Pakistan. He was killed in a shooting incident in Quetta in July 2005.

Move to Kabul
An article in the German publication Der Spiegel, on April 12, 2007, about the Taliban's former ambassador to Pakistan, Abdul Salam Zaeef, said he had moved into a "... handsome guest house, located in the dusty modern neighborhood Khosh Hal Khan." The article goes on to state that the new home Karzai's government has provided Zaeef is around the corner from Muttawakil's. Der Spiegel described Zaeef's home as being guarded, inside and out, by a heavily armed security detail. Like Muttawakil, Zaeef is regarded as one of the more moderate former members of the Taliban.

Saudi peace talks
During Ramadan in 2008, there were rumors that Saudi King Abdullah was attempting to broker peace talks between the warring parties from Afghanistan. Muttawakil, former Taliban Ambassador to Pakistan Abdul Salem Zaeef and former Supreme Court Chief Justice Fazel Hadi Shinwari were among leading Afghan figures who met with King Abdullah.

Zaeef acknowledged being invited by Abdullah to dine with other leading Afghan figures, from the Karzai government, the Taliban, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's Hezb-e-Islami and other former members of the Taliban. Zaeef denied this meeting should be characterized as "peace talks". He stated that none of the individuals at this meeting had been authorized to conduct negotiations. Zaeef denied anyone discussed Afghanistan at this meeting.

Sanctions
In 1999, the UN Security Council established a sanctions regime to cover individuals and entities associated with Al-Qaida, Osama bin Laden and/or the Taliban. Since the US Invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, the sanctions were applied to individuals and organizations in all parts of the world, also targeting former members of the Taliban government. Muttawakil was added to this list in 2001.

On January 27, 2010, a United Nations sanctions committee removed him and four other former senior Taliban officials from this list, in a move favoured by Afghan President Karzai. The decision meant he and the four others would no longer be subject to an international travel ban, assets freeze and arms embargo.

title: Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil


text:
Active shape model

Active shape models (ASMs) are statistical models of the shape of objects which iteratively deform to fit to an example of the object in a new image, developed by Tim Cootes and Chris Taylor in 1995. The shapes are constrained by the PDM (point distribution model) Statistical Shape Model to vary only in ways seen in a training set of labelled examples. The shape of an object is represented by a set of points (controlled by the shape model). The ASM algorithm aims to match the model to a new image.

The ASM works by alternating the following steps:
 * Generate a suggested shape by looking in the image around each point for a better position for the point. This is commonly done using what is called a "profile model", which looks for strong edges or uses the Mahalanobis distance to match a model template for the point.
 * Conform the suggested shape to the point distribution model, commonly called a "shape model" in this context. The figure to the right shows an example.

The technique has been widely used to analyse images of faces, mechanical assemblies and medical images (in 2D and 3D).

It is closely related to the active appearance model. It is also known as a "Smart Snakes" method, since it is an analog to an active contour model which would respect explicit shape constraints.

title: Active shape model


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White box (software engineering)

A white box (or glass box, clear box, or open box) is a subsystem whose internals can be viewed but usually not altered. The term is used in systems engineering, software engineering, and in intelligent user interface design, where it is closely related to recent interest in explainable artificial intelligence.

Having access to the subsystem internals in general makes the subsystem easier to understand, but also easier to hack; for example, if a programmer can examine source code, weaknesses in an algorithm are much easier to discover. That makes white-box testing much more effective than black-box testing but considerably more difficult from the sophistication needed on the part of the tester to understand the subsystem.

The notion of a "Black Box in a Glass Box" was originally used as a metaphor for teaching complex topics to computing novices.

title: White box (software engineering)


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Kiwiburger

The Kiwiburger is a hamburger sold at McDonald's restaurants in New Zealand. It consists of a four-ounce (113 g) beef patty, griddled egg, beetroot, tomato, lettuce, cheese, onions, mustard, and ketchup on a toasted bun.

History
The Kiwiburger was the idea of franchisee Bryan Old, who came up with the burger as a nostalgic take on the typical New Zealand hamburger prior to the introduction of McDonald's to the New Zealand market in 1976. Trialled initially in Old's five Hamilton restaurants, it was added to the national menu in 1991.

The Kiwiburger was removed from the national menu in 2004. Since then, it has returned as a limited-time item, including in May 2007, 2009, 2011, 2020-21 and 2023–24.

title: Kiwiburger


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User talk:Fldude

Hello, welcome to Wikipedia. The map you uploaded at Image:Rail info-1.gif is almost certainly copied from an MTA website. Unless you are an MTA officer able to release it under the GFDL then the image will need to be deleted. Please see Copyrights for further information. Even if this is a copyright violation, we would still welcome any original contributions from you. See the instructions on how to edit a page for more info. Thanks. Willmcw -Willmcw 18:09, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Fldude


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Austrotaxus

Austrotaxus spicata, the New Caledonia yew or southern yew, is a species of yew, the sole species in the genus Austrotaxus. It is related to the other yews in the genera Taxus and Pseudotaxus.

It is endemic to New Caledonia, occurring in the central and northern parts of the island at 300-1,350 m altitude.

It is a dioecious coniferous shrub or small tree, reaching 5–20 m (rarely 25 m) tall with reddish bark. The leaves are lanceolate, flat, 8–12 cm long (up to 17 cm on young plants) and 4 mm broad, dark green above, with two paler green stomatal bands below; they are arranged spirally on the stem.

The seed cones are drupe-like, 20–25 mm long, with a fleshy aril almost completely surrounding the single seed, but with the tip of the seed exposed. The male (pollen) cones are 10–15 mm long, slender.

The markedly longer leaves and large seeds readily distinguish it from the yews in the genus Taxus.

References and external links

 * Price, R. A. (2003). Generic and familial relationships of the Taxaceae from rbcL and matK sequence comparisons. Acta Hort. 615: 235-237.

title: Austrotaxus


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Dora Maar

Henriette Theodora Markovitch (22 November 1907 – 16 July 1997), known as Dora Maar, was a French photographer, painter, and poet.

Maar was both a pioneering Surrealist artist and an antifascist activist.

Her revolutionary work ranged from commercial assignments in fashion and advertising to documenting social and economic struggles during the Depression, and explored evocative Surrealist themes. Maar was one of the few photographers to be included in important exhibitions of surrealist work in the 1930s in Paris, New York and London, alongside Man Ray and Salvador Dali. Her daring techniques in the darkroom explore psychology, dreams and inner states.

Maar's political activism and photographic style is widely acknowledged to have influenced Pablo Picasso's work during the period of their romantic relationship. In particular, Maar's influence can be seen in Picasso's powerful anti-war painting Guernica (1937). "She influenced Picasso to paint Guernica – he had never entered political painting before," says Amar Singh, curator of Amar Gallery in London.

Maar was depicted in a number of Picasso's paintings, including his Portrait of Dora Maar and Dora Maar au Chat. However, Maar said of the works: "All his portraits of me are lies. They're all Picassos. Not one is Dora Maar."

Biography
Henriette Theodora Markovitch was the only daughter of Josip Marković (aka Joseph Markovitch) (1874–1969), a Croatian architect who studied in Zagreb, Vienna, and then Paris where he settled in 1896, and of his spouse, Catholic-raised Louise-Julie Voisin (1877–1942), originally from Cognac. In 1910, the family left for Buenos Aires where the father obtained several commissions including for the embassy of Austria-Hungary. His achievements earned him the honor of being decorated by Emperor Francis Joseph I, even though he was "the only architect who did not make a fortune in Buenos Aires".

In 1926, the family returned to Paris. Dora Maar, a pseudonym she chose, took courses at the Central Union of Decorative Arts and the School of Photography. She also enrolled at the École des Beaux-Arts and the Académie Julian which had the advantage of offering the same instruction to women as to men. Maar frequented André Lhote's workshop where she met Henri Cartier-Bresson.

While studying at the École des Beaux-Arts, Maar met fellow female surrealist Jacqueline Lamba. About her, Maar said, "I was closely linked with Jacqueline. She asked me, "where are those famous surrealists?" and I told her about Cafe de la Place Blanche." Lamba then began to frequent the cafe where she would eventually meet André Breton, whom she would later marry.

When the workshop ceased its activities, Maar left Paris, alone, for Barcelona and then London, where she photographed the effects of the economic depression following the Wall Street Crash of 1929 in the United States. On her return, and with the help of her father, she opened another workshop at 29 Rue d'Astorg in the 8th arrondissement of Paris.

In 1934 she signed the 'Appel à la lutte', that encouraged countering fascism and subsequently joined a group of intellectuals against fascism.

In 1935, Maar was introduced to Pablo Picasso and their relationship had a profound impact on both artists. During this time, Maar significantly influenced Picasso's style and themes, particularly his epic work Guernica. She taught Picasso photographic techniques and encouraged his political awareness. She took pictures in his studio at the Grands Augustins and was given exclusive access to document every stage of Guernica being painted over 36 days. She later acted as a model for his piece titled Monument à Apollinaire, a tribute to the late poet Guillaume Apollinaire.

Dora Maar the photographer
Maar's earliest surviving photographs were taken in the early 1920s while on a cargo ship going to the Cape Verde Islands.

At the beginning of 1930, she set up a photography studio on rue Campagne-Première (14th arrondissement of Paris) with Pierre Kéfer, photographer, and decorator for Jean Epstein's 1928 film, The Fall of the House of Usher. In the studio, Maar and Kefer worked together mostly on commercial photography for advertisements and fashion magazines. Her father assisted with her finances in this period of her life as she was establishing herself while trying to earn a living. The studio displayed fashion, advertising and nudes, and it became very successful. She met the photographer Brassaï with whom she shared the darkroom in the studio. Brassai once said that she had "bright eyes and an attentive gaze, a disturbing stare at times".

During this time working in advertising and fashion photography, the influence of Surrealism could be seen in her work through her heavy use of mirrors and contrasting shadows. She felt that art should represent the content of reality through links with intuitions or ideas, rather than visually reproduce the natural. Maar also met Louis-Victor Emmanuel Sougez, a photographer working for advertising, archeology and artistic director of the newspaper L'Illustration, whom she considered a mentor.

In 1932, she had an affair with the filmmaker Louis Chavance.

Maar frequented the "October group", formed around Jacques Prévert and Max Morise after their break from surrealism.

She had her first publication in the magazine Art et Métiers Graphiques in 1932.

Her first solo exhibition was held at the Galerie Vanderberg in Paris.

Dora Maar became a leading Surrealist photographer whose daring work was shown in Paris galleries alongside the work of Man Ray and Salvador Dali.

It is the gelatin silver works of the surrealist period that remain the most sought after by admirers: Portrait of Ubu (1936), 29 rue d'Astorg, black and white, collages, photomontages or superimpositions. The photograph represents the central character in a popular series of plays by Alfred Jarry called Ubu Roi. The work was first shown at the Exposition Surréaliste d'objets at the Galerie Charles Ratton in Paris and at the International Surrealist Exhibition in London in 1936. She also participated in Participates in Fantastic Art, Dada, Surrealism, at the MoMA in New York the same year.

Surrealist concepts and interests often aligned with the ideas of the political left of the time and so Maar became very politically active at this point in her life. After the fascist demonstrations of 6 February 1934, in Paris along with René Lefeuvre, Jacques Soustelle, supported by Simone Weil and Georges Bataille, she signed the tract "Appeal to the Struggle" written at the initiative of André Breton. Much of her work is highly influenced by leftist politics of the time, often depicting those who had been thrown into poverty by the Depression. She was part of an ultra-leftist association called "Masses", where she first met Georges Bataille, an anti-fascist organization called the Union of Intellectuals Against Fascism, and a radical collective of left-wing actors and writers called October.

She also was involved in many Surrealist groups and often participated in demonstrations, convocations, and cafe conversations. She signed many manifestos, including one titled "When Surrealists were Right" in August 1935 which concerned the Congress of Paris, which had been held in March of that year.

In 1935, she took a photo of fashion illustrator and designer Christian Berard that was described by writer and critic Michael Kimmelman as "wry and mischievous with only his head perceived above the fountain as if he were John the Baptist on a silver platter".

In the 1980s, she made a number of photograms.

Relationship with Pablo Picasso
Maar first saw Pablo Picasso at the end of 1935 when she was taking promotional shots on the set of the Jean Renoir film The Crime of Monsieur Lange. She was captivated by him, but they did not formally meet. Maar was introduced to Picasso a few days later by their mutual friend Paul Eluard at Cafe des Deux Magots. The story of their first encounter was told by the writer Jean-Paul Crespelle, "the young woman's serious face, lit up by pale blue eyes which looked all the paler because of her thick eyebrows; a sensitive uneasy face, with light and shade passing alternately over it. She kept driving a small pointed pen-knife between her fingers into the wood of the table. Sometimes she missed and a drop of blood appeared between the roses embroidered on her black gloves... Picasso would ask Dora to give him the gloves and would lock them up in the showcase he kept for his mementos."

Picasso was intrigued by Maar's seductive and masochistic behaviour, which served as inspiration for many of his works throughout their relationship. Their liaison would last nearly nine years, during which time Picasso did not end his relationship with Marie-Thérèse Walter, mother of his daughter Maya.

Maar photographed the successive stages of the creation of Guernica, painted by Picasso in his studio in the rue des Grands-Augustins from May to June 1937; Picasso used these photographs in his creative process. She was Picasso's principal model, and he often represented her in tears. Maar boosted Picasso's understanding of politics and taught him skills in photography. Maar also introduced Picasso to the method of combining photography and printmaking, also known as the cliché verre technique.

Dora Maar as The Weeping Woman
Maar is very well known for her role as Picasso's lover, subject, and muse. As such, he painted many portraits of her. In the majority of these paintings, Maar was represented as a tortured, anguished woman. The most well known of these portraits is The Weeping Woman. Picasso was very inspired by the tragedies of the Spanish Civil War, and he thought of Maar as a living depiction of the pain and suffering that people experienced during this time. Maar did not appreciate Picasso's depiction of her in this way. When asked about his portraits of her, she said "all portraits of me are lies. They're Picassos. Not one is Dora Maar".

Her liaison with Picasso, who physically abused her and made her fight Marie-Therese Walter for his love, ended in 1943, although they met again episodically until 1946. Thus, on 19 March 1944, she played the role of Fat Anguish in the reading, at the home of Michel Leiris, of Picasso' first play, Desire Caught by the Tail, led by Albert Camus. In 1944, through the intermediary of Paul Éluard, Maar met Jacques Lacan, who took care of her nervous breakdown through years of analysis, in which her mental health began to improve. Picasso bought her a house in Ménerbes, Vaucluse, where she retired and lived alone. She turned to the Catholic religion, met the painter Nicolas de Staël (who lived in the same village), and turned to abstract painting.

Dora Maar the painter
The painted works of Maar remained unrecognized until their posthumous sale, organized in 1999, which made the public and professionals discover a very personal production that had never left her studio.

Maar abandoned photography for painting alongside leaving Picasso and his influence, or rather the crushing presence of the painter, who had imposed on her a cubistic style.

It was from the painful separation of Picasso that Maar truly became a painter. Tragic figurative works, such as the Portrait of Eluard, or Self-Portrait to The Child of 1946, translate, in dark tones, the pain of post-war years.

After years of struggling with depression, Maar confined herself within her own memories. It is between the 1960s and 70s that there was the beginning of a respite when she experimented with abstract formats in shimmering colors. It was in the 1980s, though that the painter expressed herself fully in her many paintings of the Luberon region. Paintings of the landscapes around her house in Ménerbes, showed locations dominated by wind and clouds, strongly revealing the struggle of an artist with the ghosts of her past.

Death
Maar spent her last years in her apartment in Rue de Savoie, in the Left Bank of Paris. She died on 16 July 1997, at 89 years old. She was buried in the Bois-Tardieu cemetery in Clamart. Her experiments with photograms and dark-room photography were only found posthumously.

Legacy
Although Maar is mostly remembered as one of Picasso's lovers, there have been many recent exhibits presenting her as an artist in her own right, including exhibitions at the Haus der Kunst, Munich, 13 October 2001 – 6 January 2002; the Centre de la Vieille Charité, Marseille, 20 January – 4 May 2002; the Centre Cultural Tecla Sala, Barcelona, 15 May – 15 July 2002; the Centre Pompidou, Paris, 5 June 2019 – 29 July 2019;, the Tate Modern, London, 20 November 2019 – 15 March 2020. and the Amar gallery, London in June 2024.

Maar was played by Samantha Colley in the 2018 season of Genius, which focuses on the life and art of Picasso.

She was also played by Julianne Moore in the 1996 feature film Surviving Picasso

title: Dora Maar


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Live at the Roxy Theatre

Live at the Roxy Theatre is a live album released by Brian Wilson in 2000. After a successful period of touring following the release of Imagination, Wilson decided to record his first-ever live solo album. Accompanied by his supporting band, Wilson recorded the album during a pair of shows at the Roxy Theatre in West Hollywood.

While the album includes performances of several of Wilson's old Beach Boys favorites, there are a few surprises amid the well-known classics. Wilson takes the opportunity to introduce two songs: "The First Time" and "This Isn't Love" (itself a collaboration with Pet Sounds lyricist Tony Asher). In addition, in a moment of humor, the flesh and blood Wilson sings a portion of Barenaked Ladies' song "Brian Wilson". Because of Wilson's continuing ease in front of audiences, and the confident performances throughout, Live at the Roxy Theatre received positive reviews upon release.

Live at the Roxy Theatre was initially and exclusively distributed through Wilson's freshly inaugurated website in June 2000 on his own Brimel Records label for one year. An independent label, Oglio Records, subsequently redistributed Live at the Roxy Theatre to stores with the addition of three bonus tracks. There was also an additional Japanese release with six bonus tracks, all on disc 2 of the set.

Track listing
All songs by Brian Wilson and Mike Love, except where noted.

Disc one

 * 1) "Little Girl Intro" – 0:59
 * 2) * Uses excerpts from "The Little Girl I Once Knew"'s 13 October 1965 tracking date
 * 3) "The Little Girl I Once Knew" (Brian Wilson) – 3:25
 * 4) "This Whole World" (Brian Wilson) – 1:51
 * 5) "Don't Worry Baby" (Brian Wilson, Roger Christian) – 3:27
 * 6) "Kiss Me Baby" – 3:12
 * 7) "Do It Again" – 3:25
 * 8) "California Girls" – 4:07
 * 9) "I Get Around" – 2:35
 * 10) "Back Home" (Brian Wilson) – 4:34
 * 11) "In My Room" (Brian Wilson, Gary Usher) – 2:48
 * 12) "Surfer Girl" (Brian Wilson) – 3:03
 * 13) "The First Time" (Brian Wilson) – 3:56
 * 14) "This Isn't Love" (Brian Wilson, Tony Asher) – 3:55
 * 15) "Add Some Music to Your Day" (Brian Wilson, Mike Love, Joe Knott) – 4:11
 * 16) "Please Let Me Wonder" – 3:29

Disc two

 * 1) "Band Intro" – 1:30
 * 2) "Brian Wilson" (Steven Page) – 0:55
 * 3) "Til I Die" (Brian Wilson) – 3:57
 * 4) "Darlin' " – 2:51
 * 5) "Let's Go Away for Awhile" (Brian Wilson) – 2:54
 * 6) "Pet Sounds" (Brian Wilson) – 4:27
 * 7) "God Only Knows" (Brian Wilson, Tony Asher) – 3:26
 * 8) "Lay Down Burden" (Brian Wilson, Joe Thomas) – 3:29
 * 9) "Be My Baby" (Ellie Greenwich, Phil Spector, Jeff Barry) – 4:11
 * 10) * A song popularized by The Ronettes in 1963 with which Wilson was obsessed
 * 11) "Good Vibrations" – 6:02
 * 12) "Caroline, No" (Brian Wilson, Tony Asher) – 5:00
 * 13) "All Summer Long" – 3:12
 * 14) "Love and Mercy" (Brian Wilson) – 3:52
 * 15) "Sloop John B" (Traditional; arranged by Brian Wilson) – 3:34
 * 16) "Barbara Ann" (Fred Fassert) – 2:44
 * 17) "Interview With Brian" – 4:21

 * Tracks 14-16 of Disc 2 are bonus tracks on the Oglio Records re-release in 2001

UK version
The second disc of the UK release features several bonus tracks: 1. "Wouldn't It Be Nice" (Brian Wilson, Tony Asher, Mike Love) – 2:46

2. "Help Me, Rhonda" – 4:26

3. "Fun, Fun, Fun" – 3:54

4. "Interview With Brian" – 4:21

Live at the Roxy Theatre (Brimel 1001/Oglio OGL 82012) never charted in the U.S. or the UK. It was also an exclusive internet release for 1 year on Brian Wilson's website, before being reissued in stores with exclusive bonus tracks.

Personnel

 * Brian Wilson - vocals, keyboards, arrangements
 * Jeffrey Foskett - lead vocals, harmony and backing vocals, guitar, percussion, arrangements
 * Nick Walusko - harmony and backing vocals, guitar
 * Probyn Gregory - harmony and backing vocals, guitar, French horn, trumpet, electro-theremin
 * Bob Lizik - bass guitar
 * Darian Sahanaja - vocals, keyboards, vibraphone, arrangement on "Brian Wilson"
 * Scott Bennett - harmony and backing vocals, keyboards, vibraphone, percussion, arrangement on "Brian Wilson"
 * Jim Hines - drums
 * Taylor Mills - harmony and backing vocals, percussion
 * Mike d'Amico - harmony and backing vocals, percussion, guitar
 * Paul von Mertens - alto saxophone, baritone saxophone, flute, piccolo flute

title: Live at the Roxy Theatre


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Otto Olson

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Dmcdevit·t 08:41, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Otto Olson
Delete: not notable, not encyclopedic; only 3 Google hits. Johanus 18:11, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn vanity. -- Etacar11   01:00, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn vanity. JamesBurns 04:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


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Sarah Dash

Sarah Dash (August 18, 1945 – September 20, 2021) was an American singer. She first appeared on the music scene as a member of Patti LaBelle & The Bluebelles. Dash was later a member of Labelle, and worked as a singer, session musician, and sidewoman for The Rolling Stones, and Keith Richards.

Early career
The seventh of 13 children, Dash was born in Trenton, New Jersey. Her father was a pastor at the Trenton Church of Christ, while her mother was a nurse. Although she initially sang gospel music, Dash turned to secular music as a pre-teen when she formed a vocal duo, the Capris. When she moved to Philadelphia in the mid-1960s she got reacquainted with fellow adopted Philadelphian Nona Hendryx and Philadelphia natives Patricia "Patsy" Holte (AKA Patti LaBelle) and Sundray Tucker. In 1961, following the break-up of a rival girl group, Hendryx and Dash joined Holte and Tucker in "The Ordettes". In 1961, Tucker was replaced by Philadelphia-born Cindy Birdsong and the quartet became The Bluebelles in 1962. The group changed their name again to Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles after Holte was advised to adopt the stage name of Patti LaBelle. Among the Bluebelles hits were the doo-wop classic, "I Sold My Heart to the Junkman" and doo-wop-esque R&B ballads "You'll Never Walk Alone" and "Danny Boy", the top forty classic, "Down the Aisle", the soul standard "All or Nothing" and their now-legendary rendition of "Over the Rainbow", which LaBelle later transformed into a tour-de-force in her 1981 solo cover. Dash sang with a sharp soprano.

Labelle
In 1967, Birdsong left the group to join The Supremes and four years later, The Bluebelles changed their name to Labelle and began recording material that set them apart from other girl groups including songs of political, social and sexual matters, transforming them into a "hard-rocking, sexually and politically outspoken group". Much like The Supremes' Mary Wilson, Dash was often the "middle" of two of the group's extremes, Nona Hendryx and Patti LaBelle, who often had differed in the group's change of direction before LaBelle eventually agreed to "go along with it". After a tour of England where they changed managers, hiring Vicki Wickham, in 1971, the group ditched their bouffant wigs and dresses for Afros and jeans, releasing transitional records such as Labelle (which included the Hendryx-penned sexual "Morning Much Better") and Moon Shadow (which featured the group's gospel-fueled renditions of the Pete Townshend penned "Won't Get Fooled Again", and Cat Stevens' "Moon Shadow").

During this period, the group gained notice from the mainstream after opening for singer-songwriter Laura Nyro and recording an album, Gonna Take a Miracle, together. They also toured with British rock group The Who, leading up to the 1973 release of Pressure Cookin' This featured more songwriting from Hendryx and a more unified group effort in which Dash sang co-lead, including the ballad, "Can I Speak to You Before You Go to Hollywood?", where Dash sings most of the song. Dash's strong vocals in the group provided for balance and stability when LaBelle and Hendryx occasionally went off on vocal tangents or were pulling audience members up onto the stage to dance. Dash also wrote several songs.

Despite the group's cult raves for their early material, their critical success did not translate to commercial acclaim until the releases of 1974's Nightbirds (which featured the group's biggest smash single of their careers, "Lady Marmalade") and 1975's Phoenix. Following the release of 1976's Chameleon and a 1977 tour, the group agreed to split after the trio failed to come to terms with material (the group were working on an album titled Shaman when they split) and had finally "rocked and rolled themselves out".

Solo career
In 1978, Dash released her self-titled debut album, which included the top-ten disco hit, "Sinner Man". She also performed vocals on several ballads, notably "You," and "We're Lovers After All," and "I Can't Believe Someone Like You Could Really Love Me," (with a full gospel choir backing); she also had another minor disco hit with "(Come and Take) This Candy from Your Baby". Dash enjoyed much success and television and public appearances with "Sinner Man." At this time, she was asked to compose and sing "For The Love of You" (the theme song for the 1980s PBS show Watch Your Mouth) and "Bringing It All Home." She also guest-starred on an episode of Watch Your Mouth, playing a fictional character, a super diva with an attitude, "Tessie Bright".

However, on her Don Kirshner albums, and especially Ooh La La, Sarah Dash, (1980) she was given substandard material to work with, although she wrote "I Feel Good Being Me" for this album. It featured one disco track, "Ooh La La, Too Soon," which was used in a Sassoon jeans commercial, and Phyllis Hyman provided backing vocals to the album. After releasing one more album Close Enough, for Kirshner, which features ballads such as "Somebody's Angel" and "God Bless You," and the rocker, "Paradise," Dash left Kirshner for other opportunities.

In 1983, Dash released two dance singles for Megatone Records in San Francisco, both produced by Patrick Cowley. The first, "Low Down Dirty Rhythm" was basically ignored, but the second single "Lucky Tonight" (featuring background vocals by Sylvester), was much more successful, even rising to the #5 spot on Billboard's Dance Chart, and was even a Billboard "Pick of the Week."

Dash's next endeavor was the recording she made on the rap record, Satisfaction, for High Fidelity Three in 1985. Also during this time, Dash did session work for The O'Jays, Nile Rodgers of Chic (duetting on a ballad with Rodgers, "My Love Song for You" from, The Adventures in the Land of the Good Groove), The Marshall Tucker Band, and David Johansen.

In the later 1980s, she teamed up with musician Dr. York for the duet "It's Too Late" (for which York took out advertisement space on the cover of Billboard magazine, to little success).

Then in 1988, she was signed to Manhattan Records, (via EMI) and released the album entitled You're All I Need. This set included a title track duet with Patti LaBelle; a further duet "Don't Make Me Wait" with Ray, Goodman & Brown; and "To Tell You The Truth". It was met with only moderate success, and Dash did not record another album thereafter. Subsequently, Dash released a little-noticed dance single in 1990, "When You Talk to Me/ Manhandled," with Disc jockey Jellybean Benitez.

A dance music single with gospel lyrics called "Hold On (He'll Be Right There)," produced by Jason King and Gavin Bradley, was released in 2012.

Reunited with the Rolling Stones
In 1988, Keith Richards invited Dash to accompany him on tour: her association with him led to another world tour, a tour with Richards' X-pensive Winos, appearances on two of his albums, and on The Rolling Stones' Steel Wheels album in 1989. With Richards, she guested on Live at the Hollywood Palladium in 1988, and Main Offender, in 1992. In the early 1990s, Dash developed her own one-woman show, "Dash of Diva," performing at different club venues, as well as doing a more jazz-flavored set that resulted in various appearances. In 1995, she reunited with Patti LaBelle and Nona Hendryx to record the track "Turn It Out" for the movie soundtrack, To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar, garnering a No. 1 dance music hit in the process. Also in 1988, Dash was asked to add her backing vocals to the Rolling Stones' Steel Wheels album, which eventually led to a tour with her old friend Keith Richards. They became close when Dash was still performing with Patti LaBelle and The Blue Belles, who opened for Stones in the early 1960s. She recorded the duet "Make No Mistake" with him, and she took the lead vocal on "Time Is on My Side", showcasing her powerful delivery and vocal range, which, Keith has said in his autobiography, is 'the best version of that song he's ever heard'. She also recorded as lead vocalist for "Rock Awhile". For his next album, Dash wrote and sang another track, "Body Talk". Another highlight during her tour with Richards was her singing the female vocal on "Gimme Shelter." Dash started the song with her silvery "Oohs' and then cut loose on her solo in the middle of the song. Another contribution is only available on the Keith Richards song "Eileen", a CD single from his album Main Offender on the Virgin Records label. In 1992, Dash added her background vocals on the collaboration between Bo Diddley and Ronnie Wood's Live at the Ritz album.

Later career and Labelle reunion
Dash made later guest appearances on albums, including Temptation and Persuasions' cut "Greener." From time to time, she also performed jazz/blues shows in small clubs on the east coast. She took a break to work on her autobiography, Dash of Diva. She decided with her friend and confidante Pam Johnson on scripted excerpts and wrote a musical with the same title debut at The Cross Roads Theater in New Brunswick.

Labelle, having reunited for television a few times over the years and sporadic recordings, recorded in January 2006, a tribute to civil rights leader Rosa Parks tentatively titled, "Dear Rosa." In 2008, the long-awaited new album from Labelle founders Patti LaBelle, Nona Hendryx & Sarah Dash, Back to Now, was released to rave reviews. Dash sang lead vocals in the group's political song, "System", which featured LaBelle and Hendryx singing side by side to Dash in autotone, resurrecting songs that did not make the final cut from earlier recordings, including Cole Porter's composition, "Miss Otis Regrets" amongst other songs. Dash's voice had taken a while to return after an injury on the New York City Subway and hospitalization, but she recovered her voice by the time of the recording. Producers on the project included Lenny Kravitz, Wyclef Jean, and Philadelphia writer/producers Kenny Gamble & Leon Huff.

Dash headlined for a month in the San Francisco Cirque du Soleil-influenced Teatro Zinzanni and performed at the 2007 Lesbian, Bisexual, Gay, Transgender parade. She also worked on a gospel album at the time.

Dash was honored by her hometown of Trenton, New Jersey, by being the grand marshal in the annual Thanksgiving Day Parade. The parade was held on Saturday November 22, 2008. The honor was presented to Dash during a time when her hometown of Trenton was at a point where morale was at an all-time low and violent crimes such as murder reached an all-time high. The hope was that such honors would spark encouragement in the city and show that people from Trenton can reach a measure of success with hard work.

It was announced in 2012 that Dash planned to release a full-length gospel album. She released a ballad from the album called "I'm Still Here" in late 2011, and a dance music single "Hold On (He'll Be Right There)," in May 2012.

Dash along with the group LaBelle, were inducted into the Philadelphia Music Alliance Walk of Fame in October 2017.

In 2016, Dash was honored with a Lifetime Achievement Award by The National R&B Music Society.

Charity work
Much of Dash's focus since the early 1990s was on helping to raise money for homeless single women with children in New York. Dash received a citation from the deputy Mayor of New York City, Ruth Messinger, for her work and efforts in the underprivileged New York City community where she raised funds. Dash collected donations and funds she acquired for these mothers and their children which included clothing, toys, books, after-school activities, excursions to amusement parks, theater in the parks, and food.

Personal life
Sarah Dash was married briefly and had no children. The author of an autobiography, Dash of Diva, Dash also wrote and appeared in a self-penned musical of the same title that was presented at the Cross Roads Theater in New Brunswick, New Jersey.

Death
Dash died unexpectedly on September 20, 2021, at the age of 76. No cause of death was given.

Dash's last performance was on September 18, 2021 (two days before her death) in Atlantic City, New Jersey. Patti LaBelle called Dash up to the stage for them to sing a song together.

Albums

 * Sarah Dash, 1978, Kirshner Records
 * Ooh La La, Sarah Dash, 1980, Kirshner Records
 * Close Enough, 1983, Kirshner Records
 * You're All I Need, 1988, EMI

Singles

 * "Sinner Man" (1978), Kirshner Records
 * "(Come and Take This) Candy from Your Baby" (1978), Kirshner
 * "Ooh La La Too Soon" (1980), Kirshner
 * "Leaving Again" (1983), Kirshner
 * "Low Down Dirty Rhythm" (1983), Megatone Records
 * "Lucky Tonight" (1983), Megatone Records
 * "Satisfaction" (with High Fidelity Three) (1985), Cutting Records
 * "It's Too Late" (with Dr. York) (1985)
 * "Feel Good" (1988), EMI
 * "When You Talk to Me" (1990), EMI-Manhattan
 * "Sparkle" (with Ari Gold) (2011), Gold 18 Records
 * "Hold On (He'll Be Right There)" (2012), Superlatude
 * "Sinner Man" (2021 Remixes), House of Pride Music

Film and television

 * SOUL!, 1968
 * Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band, 1978, MCA
 * Midnight Special, 1978
 * Merv Griffin Show, 1978
 * Dinah Shore Show, 1978
 * Dance Fever, 1978
 * Soul Train, 1978
 * Don Kirshner's Rock Concert, 1978
 * Watch Your Mouth (acting as character 'Tessie Bright'), 1978, PBS
 * Soul Train, 1978
 * Mr. SOUL!, 2018 (archival footage)

Theater

 * Teatro Zinzanni (San Francisco), May – August 2007

title: Sarah Dash


text:
Talk:Comparison of operating systems/Archive 2

Solaris license
I've changed the Solaris license from the CDDL to Proprietary because specifying the CDDL is technically incorrect. OpenSolaris will be licensed under the CDDL, but commercial Solaris uses a proprietary license, the Solaris OE Software License Agreement. --ndc 04:15, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 68.161.176.231 reverted my changes with no explanation. I believe the text and link above show that listing the CDDL as Solaris' license is inappropriate.  To --K. Sperling June 28, 2005 15:40 (UTC)clarify, claiming that Solaris and OpenSolaris are the same (and hence share licenses) would be the same as claiming Mac OS X and Darwin the same OS.  Note that the OS X entry lists both a proprietary license (for OS X) and the ASPL (for Darwin), so perhaps doing the same for Solaris is suitable.  If I'm wrong, please correct me.  If not, I'll change it shortly. --ndc 01:54, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Thinking more about this, perhaps we need to start (another) new discussion about how that column works. Fedora has it's own RTU-ish license1 similar to Solaris'.  It relies on the GPL but is not itself the GPL.  Does the license column refer to the license which the released (e.g. distribution format, be it CD, DVD, disk images, slack disk sets...) version is shipped as?  In this respect, even Fedora has a proprietary license.  Unfortunately, you're talking about 2 different things here - the distributed version of the OS and the source code that makes up the OS.  In the case of Solaris, the source is under the CDDL license, but the compiled, packaged, and distributed OS is under the proprietary license.  Does anyone else have any interest in this topic? --ndc 21:07, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Maybe saying "proprietary (source CDDL)" would make sense then, if the source released under the CDDL actually contains the source to everything included in the binary release. Expanding the footnote to explain the realse vs. source license issue would probably be good, too.

"Target Audience"
For AmigaOS I would say that "Enthusiast" is whay more correct than "Home Desktop, Media creators"(at least for the last 10 years). For WinXP, how it can be targeted for "software development" when it dosn't even include a compiler? (and yes, I know you can download compilers for free, but that is not the point, you can get compilers for any OS)

I made those two corrections, if someone disagrees please coment here. Lost Goblin 09:53, 2005 May 17 (UTC)

 * XP target audience is 'Creative professionals, Scientists, Business/Home Desktop' instead of 'Home and Business Desktop'? uh? If no one objects I will revert that.

Windows OTT-ness
If theres no objections, I'm going to kill the Windows 3.1, 95, 98, NT4 and 2000 entries - it is completely over the top to have them, especially as they're all in the same series as ones listed there. --Kiand 17:04, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Go for NT desktop, NT server, and 9x. « alerante ✆ ✉ » 13:58, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Which is what I've done - XP, 2K3 and ME. --Kiand 14:05, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah, good, although I'd like to see those as the actual row headings, and XP/2003/Me under the version. Objections? « alerante ✆ ✉ » 14:12, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A number of changes
I think the article needed a number of changes, which I made just (bold editing and all that). However, I wanted to provide a number of comments on the edits:

 * Target Audience: This is a quite fuzzy column, it listed people as well as system types. Especially "enthusiast" doesn't really give any information at all; there are enthusiasts for any operating system. "Scientists" is very vague, too. What OS a scientist uses would obviously depend on what kind of software she needs, which of course depends on the science in question. All things considered, I think it's much better to give a broad indication of what type of system the OS is designed for (server / workstation / home desktop / embedded), and leave any more detailed elaborations to the individual articles (and the companies' marketing departments).
 * Version numbers: It really doesn't make sense to specify the version number down to the patch level here. It's not like one could buy or even download a specific patch level of most OSes. If somebody is interested in the exact latest version of an OS down to the patch level, they'll use the OS's website. The major (and maybe minor) version is the relevant level of detail here.
 * Cost: This column is meant to give a general idea of how much the operating system costs, there is no need to list a large number of options.
 * Removal of AmigaOS: Much as I like Amigas, I don't think AmigaOS belongs in this table, as it is only of historical interest. If you include AmigaOS, dozens of other OSes would also have to be included.
 * Removal of BeOS: BeOS doesn't exist as a product anymore. There are some efforts underway to reimplement a BeOS-like system as open source, but these projects are nowhere near the state that would warrant an inclusion in this table.
 * Linux (GNU/Linux): These systems have quite a lot in common, so its not necessary to leave every column empty. Since we're really talking about the whole OS here and not just the kernel, I think GNU/Linux is the more accurate name here. Or maybe "GNU/Linux based systems", but thats a bit lengthy.
 * Lots of the technical features information was wildly inaccurate or even plain wrong. Just to give a few examples
 * VT100 is not an API, its a protocol for character-based terminals
 * While mosts OSes specify their APIs for C, that doesn't mean they can only be used with that language. In the end, the actual APIs are binary and usable with many languages.
 * MFC and .NET aren't system APIs.
 * x64-64 aka AMD64 and IA-64 aren't the same thing. And just because AMD64 is x86-compatible doesn't mean any OS that runs on x86 automatically has AMD64 support (in the sense that it can actually use the 64bit features).
 * Default and other file systems can easily go into one column, by just putting the default file systems first. It is not necessary to list ALL file systems supported by an OS, just the major ones. E.g. NTFS support in the free unices is quite limited, due to the fact that its not publicly documented.

 * The Features table: I dont think this table conveyed much useful information.
 * All OSes that have integrated GUIs have some sort of desktop/file browser; what name the particular vendor chooses to call it isn't really the type of information you need a table for. For example, the file systems column is useful. You can use it forwards, to see which FSes an OS supports, but you can also use it backwards, to see which OSes support e.g. UFS. On the other hand, asking "Which OSes use Windows Explorer?" doesn't make much sense, since obviously the answer is Windows.
 * All OSes running X can run lots of different window managers and desktop environments. Which one is installed by default doesn't have much more significance than what background color the desktop is set to by default.

This should summarize most of the changes I've made and the reasons for them. I'm of course open to discussion on all of these points, so please consider posting here or fixing the specific problems instead of just hitting "revert" :-) --K. Sperling 18:40, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
 * I'm putting BeOS back in. Main reason - yellowTAB. Its a BeOS. Its commercial. Its a v1.0 level. Its on sale. Its still a product. Its still in use. --Kiand 18:42, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Under the 'its not a product' logic, if you deny BeOS, take OS/2 out also. Its not being maintained by IBM, but by Serenity. --Kiand 18:43, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I was actually wondering about OS/2 and Plan 9, too. Maybe calling it yellowTAB BeOS or something like that would be more appropriate, though? --K. Sperling 18:46, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
 * I've put it in as yellowTAB Zeta, much as I hate calling it anything other than BeOS, as that is nothing but a tradename on top of BeOS R5.1. Same as Serenity Systems eComStation is OS/2 4.5 rebadged. --Kiand 18:52, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Does anyone have any objection to me reinstating AmigaOS? It is still under active development (not just "historical") and while obviously its not exactly popular, compared to Windows etc it's probably as (in)significant as Zeta.--Alex Whittaker
 * I've no objections, but theres no way that AmigaOS is as commonly used or as commercially viable as Zeta at the moment - yT are shifting about 2,000 copies a week; whereas eyetech might sell 2,000 AmigaOne's a month if they're extremely lucky. --Kiand 21:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with some of your changes and disagree with some of your changes:
 * Target Audience to Target System type was good
 * Version numbers... what? Detail is good, the more the better. I say keep as much in as possible--within reason. For example, saying 10.4.1 "Tiger" is >> than saying 10.4 "Tiger" because it is more accurate, plain and simple.
 * Cost: good change
 * Removal of rare systems is a good idea
 * Linux... whatever
 * Fixing technical information is good :)
 * I disagree with combining the default and supported filesystems because it is not clear at all that the first is the default, it was much better with two separate columns
 * I also disagree with your removal of the features table. Frankly, it doesn't matter if you didn't find it very facinating, other people might and there's no harm having additional information. The names of file browsers, for example, are useful because that offers links to articles on those specific file browsers.
 * I would support a column on the default color of the background, yes... or even better... thumbnails of the default background images! As always the more info the better. --Ctachme 04:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * More information is only good if it's also accurate. "10.4.1" vs "10.4" I don't really care much about, at least it's still a release number. Adding build number/patch level is plain nonsense. This table gives a broad overview over the listed operating systems, and in thus necessarily a bit coarse in places. E.g. "Target System Type", "Cost", "Predecessor" (and probably most other columns) are obviously simplified, too. And if I'd really need to know the version of an OS down to the latest build number, I'd not trust the table to be up to date anyway, since they change quite often.
 * The problem with the features table (and tables in general) is this: A table only provides very limited space in each cell, so the columns have to be chosen so that it's actually possible to represent that piece of information about the OS in question somewhat accurately in that little space. I.e. the columns have be applicable to at at least most (better all) of the OSes being compared. The question "what's the default file browser" may be (somewhat) sensible for a desktop OS, but is not really applicable for a server OS, because the GUI is usually an optional part there, and a file browser doubly so. You'd have to write something like "If you install a GUI, then the default FB is ...". And even the "default" doesn't really make much sense there: If there are multiple options that are equally easily installable, then the question which of those is the default is fairly meaningless. If you go the other way and instead write "n/a" in the "default file browser" column for an OS, that sounds like the OS doesn't ship with a file browser at all, which is probably not the case.
 * Let me try to put it differently: If you put the information I about operating system O into a column C of a table T, then the statement "in the context T, I is the C of O" (e.g. "speaking of OS features, the default background color of NetBSD is orange") should be
 * True and reasonably accurate
 * Relevant to a description of O in the context T
 * If (1) is not the case, then the table is inaccurate and needs to be fixed. If it's not possible to give a reasonably accurate answer in the space available in a table cell, then that's probably a case of (2). And if (2) is not true for all but a very few items in a column, then the table, while not necessarily wrong, is a misrepresentation of the facts.

 * About "default filesystem": First, it's actually inaccurate to say that e.g. NTFS is the default FS for Windows XP, because for floppies the default is FAT and for CDs it's ISO 9660. And in general, the default chosen by the installer could easily be different according to harddisk size, selected system type (workstation vs. server) etc., making it impossible to accurately represent in the table.
 * I generally question the usefulness of most "default ..." columns. It's not clear wether it means that the default choice is somehow better supported than the optional ones, or if it's really just a default in the sense that using any of the other options requires an additional click or two. In the first case, it would probably better be called "primary ...", and in the latter case it's a trivial bit of information not worth wasting an extra column for, though displaying the default item in a list of "supported ..." in bold may make sense in some cases.
 * I hope I have managed to clarify my problems with some of the columns in these tables general, and the features table in particular. If you really want a features table, then I suggest having a separate table for different target system types, e.g. "Server OS Features" "Home Desktop OS Features" or something like that, and only put those OSes into these table where these are applicable. --K. Sperling 10:40, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)

Security Table?
Is that really useful? Not even considering the fact that it lists a rather different set of OSes than the main tables, I doubt the usefulness of manually mirroring changing data that is readily available on the web in a wikipedia article. Information like that is only useful if it's current. Is whoever added it actually willing to update it every day to ensure it stays up to date? Probably not. So why not just link to the relevant sites; anyone interested gets the same information just as quickly (and can actually be sure that is IS in fact up to date).

Sometimes it helps to keep in mind that Wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopedia, and not a repository of everything. That's the Web ;-) --K. Sperling 10:57, 2005 Jun 23 (UTC)
 * Dump it. We only have "Linux" as a general concept anyway, most distros are usually carrying so much software than the combined vunerabilites would outweigh Windows, and I know the entire point of that table was someone trying to make Windows look bad. We don't have specific distros, it'll be hell to update, Secunia, etc don't cover OS/2\BeOS\whatever vunerabilities anyway. --Kiand 11:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * "Is that really useful?" This topic (and related) was discussed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Comparison_of_operating_systems_%28security%29 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Comparison_of_web_browsers_%28security%29
 * There are general consensus that "statistics are human knowledge, encyclopedic", "This is a lovely, concise and useful article", useful source of information that belongs in an encyclopedia and so on.
 * "Information like that is only useful if it's current. Is whoever added it actually willing to update it every day to ensure it stays up to date?. ... " Trends and general comparison are mostly same for a long time. This can provide general idea about care for customers/users security of each monitored systems. Microsoft release vulnerability fixes continually every second Tuesday at month, and other systems with steadily low number of unpatched vulnerabilities are easily updated.
 * "So why not just link to the relevant sites; anyone interested gets the same information just as quickly (and can actually be sure that is IS in fact up to date). ... I doubt the usefulness of manually mirroring changing data that is readily available on the web in a wikipedia article." You are wrong. The problem is that this security sources don't contain well arranged data about various operating systems, nobody has a chance to quickly compare various products. This comparison also have direct relation with topic such as operating systems, security or critism of Microsoft for security of products. They are based on facts and reports from renowned and highly regarded security firm - Secunia and SecurityFocus and can bee anytime monitored and easily updated.
 * "We only have "Linux" as a general concept anyway" Yes, I understand that is hard to add all linux distributions between other systems. But purpose of this comparison is comparise main, most-used operating systems and distributions.
 * "most distros are usually carrying so much software than the combined vunerabilites would outweigh Windows" This is big FUD as you can see at comparison. Most distributions have much less known unpatched vulnerabilities (including all distributed packages and programs) than Microsoft Windows with Notepad, Calc and several other primitive programs.
 * "I know the entire point of that table was someone trying to make Windows look bad." I, You or somebody else normal user don't take responsibility for creator ability to fix known public vulnerabilities as soon as possible. Many users people want to have as secure experience as it is possible for them. This comparison based on vulnerability reports by two independent, renowned and highly regarded security firms give visitors basic data. I can't for that Microsoft made worse quality software, while other creators can better respond to security vulnerabilities, as anyone can see in that comparison.
 * "Secunia, etc don't cover OS/2\BeOS\whatever vunerabilities anyway" 1. BeOS doesn't exists now (see table please). 2. OS/2 is continually monitoring by SecurityFocus. But we should primarily orient to most popular and most used systems (Win,Mac,Lin,FreeBsd) and then for something else.
 * So I think this type of comparison should stay on Wikipedia, becouse they are interesting and important for many users. I blow a hole in every your argument. Either anybody should present another argument or somebody should revert comparison table in article. Thank you.
 * --Ptomes 17:04, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm in a hurry and may go over this again later, but Zeta is to all intents and purposes BeOS. Do Secunia carry vun's for it? Nope. No need to be pedantic to prove a point. --Kiand 17:22, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, You are right here. But how many people use it? Newest Mandrake version isn't there too. Do you want table with every-operating-system-on-the-world-which-ever-existed? No, it belong to complete list of operating systems, not in comparison. Look at the main tables of this pages. Do you really think that there is what should be there? I think 99% of visitors never heard about most operating systems in table and you certainly know it too. Why do you complicate that tables? It loose point now. I still think that small comparison of most used and most known operating system with vulnerabilities info is acceptable, reasonable, interesting and clear. And even maybe inspirating to another tables on that page. --Ptomes 17:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Its selling extremely well at the moment, and apparently has some pretty major market share in Germany. Its also still sold, unlike Windows ME, and its actively maintained (rather than passively), unlike Plan 9 and OS/2. Remove those three first before you start going after an actively sold, actively maintained, widely used OS.
 * Another thing to remember is that during the paranoid overhyped "This is the year of Linux on the desktop" period from 1998-2001, BeOS was the only non-Windows OS that x86 system vendors would touch... it was extremely important in getting Microsoft to target NT at the home desktop rather than milk a bit longer out of 9x, because companies like AST, Compaq and Hitachi were selling machines with a workstation OS to the home market... --Kiand 18:04, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank for interetsing details, I don't know it. Maybe we should start some general discuss about further direction Comparison of operating systems, but I think, security at least minimal scope are important here. --Ptomes 18:23, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * The security table at the very least should go into a separated article. Lost Goblin 13:13, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)
 * This has been already well discussed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Comparison_of_operating_systems_%28security%29 and related topic has been discussed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Comparison_of_web_browsers_%28security%29 Most people agree that this comparison should be in this article. --Ptomes 13:48, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Ptomes: "Most people agree that this comparison should be in this article." I see no such consensus in the discussions you link to. The discussion at Comparison of operating systems (security) has exactly one person speaking up for the table, namely you yourself. And incidentally, you're also the person who created that article/table in the first place. The other people merely stated that it should be merged. The browser discussion is about a completely different table.
 * It's clear you are wrong here because related discussion is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Comparison_of_web_browsers_%28security%29 and this is related topic and so direct analogy. --Ptomes 28 June 2005 10:26 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't be against security related information in the tables, if it were possible to give some condensed overview in an NPOV way. Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible. Security is very hard to quantify, and just giving some "unfixed bugs" number is misleading at best. The security of a system running a certain OS depends on a lot of factors, and the OS itself is just one of them.
 * I agree with you that security is very hard and depends on many factors, but it is main purpose of table show number of unfixed bugs. It is reliable data based on security reports two independent and respected security agencies. In future we could add some columns there, for example integrated firewall and so on. --Ptomes 28 June 2005 10:26 (UTC)
 * And even if we agreed to include a table, it should list the same operating systems as the main table, in the same order (and not according to some questionable security rank). And it should provide a few well-condensed figures, not a large number of individually irrelevant information (e.g. non-critical bugs probably don't say much about the general security of an OS).
 * Why questionable security rank??? You have false argument. It's ranked for number of bugs and old of public that bugs. Yes, I agree that non-critical bugs probably don't say much about the general security of an OS, but there are rather for fullness. --Ptomes 28 June 2005 10:26 (UTC)
 * "Questionable" because the number of bugs isn't a good metric for over-all OS security. But see my full reply below, especially regarding completeness. --K. Sperling June 28, 2005 15:31 (UTC)
 * In your post above, you have stated yourself that your motivation for this table is showing "that Microsoft made worse quality software". That's blatant POV (and while I would agree that MS doesn't have the best approach to OS security, this article is not the place for opinions like that). Unprofessional MS bashing just makes Wikipedia look bad. Why don't you take your table over to Operating system advocacy. All things considered, I'm removing the table again. Please don't just re-add it without addressing any of the criticisms (as you did the last time).
 * Please be carefull about your statement. My motivation for this table isn't showing bad results of particular systems, but showing really results on well aranged form. And this is what this table is about. I have ***no responsibility*** about ability some vendors fixes vulnerabilities quickly and on time. It's their issue or problem. So I can't that Microsoft products are in the end of table.
 * I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm asking you to take responsibility for any vendors' problems, I'm not. Nor am I trying to make Microsoft look better than they are. But I'm also not trying to make them look worse than they are, or make Linux/BSD look better than they are. If there is to be a security table, I want it to cover the breadth of OS security related information in a concise and fair manner. --K. Sperling June 28, 2005 15:31 (UTC)
 * It is logic, important and well aranged component of this topic and this article (see related disscusionabout security of web browsers). It has particulary relation with critism of Microsoft article (and can be used as a basis for it). It is based on two independent and respected sources. It provide some general idea about responsibility and ability of creator to fix security vulnerabilities and so about disposition for security risks. That table shouldn't be removed only because some little used and marginal systems haven't been monitored for vulnerabilities by that sources. So please reconsider your verdict about delete table, if you want maintain neutral point of view about operating systems security (or more precisely one important component of it, maybe most important one). See computer security for more details about the importance of unpatched known flaws and Comparison of web browsers - Security for related topic with related table as this would be. --Ptomes 28 June 2005 10:28 (UTC)
 * I'm not concerned about the fact that some OSes are not monitored, for those the corresponding box could simply be left blank. I just don't see why OSes that aren't in the main tables should be listed in the security tables (e.g. Win2k and the Linux distrubutions (those can go into Comparison of Linux distributions)) --K. Sperling June 28, 2005 15:31 (UTC)
 * And about the general direction of this article: In my opinion, it already has a bit of a bias towards popular desktop OSes, and could do with quite a bit more information about server operating systems (e.g. Z/OS, HP-UX, ...). Maybe also embedded or handheld/phone OSes... Though while adding them would be nice, it also makes it harder again to do meaningful comparisons. --K. Sperling 19:12, 2005 Jun 26 (UTC)

 * How about this: We add a "Security" table that lists the same OSes in the same order (i.e. alphabetically) as the other tables, and make "Number of unfixed critical bugs" (e.g. moderately critical and above) one column of it, and maybe also the date of the oldest of those bugs. Other columns could be "integrated firewall", "encrypted filesystems", "stack execution prevention", "isolation of subsystems" (needs a better name I guess, I'm thinking of things like BSD jail or POSIX chroot here (though chroot provides only partial isolation)), and probaby some others.
 * I agree with that, but I think others editors should help with it. It seems good. I complain about add that table, but now we can only edit it. --Ptomes 4 July 2005 07:18 (UTC)
 * Ordering by bug number or any other contrived metric is bad, because listing any OS as number 1 is equivalent to saying "OS XYZ is the most secure OS". However, there is no such thing as "the most secure OS", just as there is not "the fastest OS" or "the OS with the nicest GUI". It all depends on how and in what contexts you measure security/speed/...
 * This article provides is a high-level overview, it is neither necessary nor desirable to include every bit of detail information about every OS. What's important is breadth of coverage, not depth. Just as the "Technical Information" table (hopefully) covers the most important technical aspects of an operating system, a "Security" table has to reasonably cover the subject of OS security. A mere bug count doesn't even come close to covering the subject of operating system security.
 * BTW, I'd also like to know some other editors' opionions about these issues! --K. Sperling June 28, 2005 15:31 (UTC)

 * Seeing as you've just reinstated the table, and again without any modifications, and without even responding here, i'm posting this on RfC. --K. Sperling July 1, 2005 10:50 (UTC)

From RfC
After reading through the security table discussion and perusing the artcile, I concur with Sperling's position. Specifically, I agree with his idea of focusing on security features rather than number of bugs.

In its current state, the security table isn't as informative as it could be. There's far too many cells without data and the rankings aren't very helpful. OS security is an extremely complex subject and can't realistically be quantified or ranked. I'm interested in reading more opinions, but I'd recommend removing the table or modifying it to focus on security features. Carbonite | Talk 1 July 2005 12:13 (UTC)

"BTW, I'd also like to know some other editors' opinions about these issues!"
Are you really sure that you want to know? :-)

IMNSHO, this entire article is one of "those" articles. You know the ones I mean: Nuclear power, George W. Bush, Abortion, and the like where there are far too many partisans on all the sides of the issue for the article to ever converge into something even remotely truthful and usable by a naive reader. If it were up to me, we'd have a Wiki template that we'd apply to articles of this nature that said something like:

 * "Caution: Nearly EVERYTHING in this article is just someone's Point-of-View, and if you re-read it two minutes from now, it will just be someone else's Point-of-View (unless the entire content of the article has been temporarily replaced by "Xyzzy is Gay!"). Why not skip this article and go read about ((random page inserted here)) instead?"

Atlant 1 July 2005 12:16 (UTC)

 * Hehe, yeah, I would have to agree this article is (or at least has a strong disposition to be) one of "those". But since it's here and VfD-ing it would probably fail, one might as well try to provide some basic information in a half-way truthful manner :) --K. Sperling July 4, 2005 01:42 (UTC)