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Sanford Robinson Gifford

Sanford Robinson Gifford (July 10, 1823 – August 29, 1880) was an American landscape painter and a leading member of the second generation of Hudson River School artists. A highly-regarded practitioner of Luminism, his work was noted for its emphasis on light and soft atmospheric effects.

Childhood and early career
He was born in Greenfield, New York, the fourth of the eleven children of Quaker ironmaker Elihu Gifford and Eliza Robinson Starbuck. He spent his childhood in Hudson, New York, and entered Brown University in 1842. He left college after his sophomore year, and moved to New York City in 1845 to study art. He studied drawing, perspective and anatomy under the British watercolorist and drawing-master, John Rubens Smith, and took drawing classes at the National Academy of Design. He also studied the human figure in anatomy classes at the Crosby Street Medical College.

Although trained as a portrait painter, the first work Gifford exhibited at the National Academy was a landscape, in 1847. Thereafter, Gifford devoted himself primarily to landscape painting, becoming one of the finest artists of the Hudson River School. He was elected an Associate of the National Academy in 1851, and an Academician in 1854.

Gifford's travels
Like most Hudson River School artists, Gifford traveled extensively to find scenic landscapes to sketch and paint. In addition to exploring New England, upstate New York and New Jersey, Gifford made extensive trips abroad. He first traveled to Europe from 1855 to 1857, to study European art and sketch subjects for future paintings. During this trip Gifford also met and traveled extensively with Albert Bierstadt and Worthington Whittredge.

In 1858, he traveled to Mount Mansfield, Vermont's tallest mountain, with his friend and fellow painter Jerome Thompson. Sketches made during their visit were published in the magazine Home Journal. Gifford painted some 20 paintings from the Vermont sketches. Of these, Mount Mansfield (1858) was his primary work, exhibited at the National Academy of Design in 1859. Thompson also exhibited a painting of Mount Mansfield in same exhibition, Belated Party on Mansfield Mountain. Thompson's work is now owned by the Metropolitan Museum of Art. (See "2008 NAD controversy," below.)

Gifford served as a corporal in the 7th Regiment of the New York Militia during the Civil War, guarding Washington, D.C., and Baltimore, 1861-1863. A few of his canvases belonging to New York City's Seventh Regiment and the Union League Club of New York are testament to this troubled time.

During the summer of 1867, Gifford spent most of his time painting on the New Jersey coast, specifically at Sandy Hook and Long Branch, according to an auction Web site. The Mouth of the Shrewsbury River, one noted canvas from the period, is a dramatic scene depicting a series of telegraph poles extending into an atmospheric distance underneath ominous storm clouds.

Another journey, this time with Jervis McEntee and his wife, took him across Europe in 1868. Leaving the McEntees behind, Gifford traveled to the Middle East, including Egypt in 1869. Then in the summer of 1870 Gifford ventured to the Rocky Mountains in the western United States, this time with Worthington Whittredge and John Frederick Kensett. At least part of the 1870 travels were as part of a Hayden Expedition, led by Ferdinand Vandeveer Hayden.

Method
Mr. Gifford's method is this: When he sees anything which vividly impresses him, and which therefore he wishes to reproduce, he makes a little sketch of it in pencil on a card about as large as an ordinary visiting-card. It takes him, say, half a minute to make it; there is the idea of the future picture fixed as firmly if not as fully as the completed work itself. While traveling, he can in this way lay up a good stock of material for future use. The next step is to make a larger sketch, this time in oil, where what has already been done in black-and-white is repeated in color. To this sketch, which is about twelve inches by eight, he devotes an hour or two. It serves the purpose of defining to him just what he wants to do. He experiments with it; puts in or leaves out, according as he finds that he can increase or perfect his idea. When satisfactorily finished, it is a model of what he proposes to do. He is now ready to paint the picture itself. When the day comes, he begins work just after sunrise, and continues until just before sunset. Ten, eleven, twelve consecutive hours, according to the season of the year, are occupied in the first great effort to put the scene on canvas. He feels fresh and eager. His studio-door is locked. Nothing is allowed to interrupt him. When the long day is finished and the picture is produced, the work of criticism, of correction, of completion, is in place. Mr. Gifford does this work slowly. He likes to keep his picture in his studio as long as possible. Sometimes he does not touch the canvas for months after his first criticisms have been executed. Then, suddenly, he sees something that will help it along. I remember hearing him say one day, in his studio: "I thought that picture was done half a dozen times. It certainly might have been called finished six months ago. I was working at it all day yesterday." But one limitation should be noted here. Mr. Gifford does not experiment with his paintings. He does not make a change in one of them unless he knows precisely what he wishes to do. When Mr. Gifford is done, he stops. And he knows when he is done. Yet, on the other hand, he would rather take the risk of destroying a picture than to feel the slightest doubt respecting any part of it. The moment of his keenest pleasure is not when his work is satisfactorily completed, but when, long beforehand, he feels that he is going to be successful with it. Gifford would often revisit an image later, sometimes years later, painting a variation based on his sketches and own inspiration, or a patron's wishes.

Thirty-six Venice paintings, based on his 1869 drawings and studies of the city, were listed in the 1881 memorial catalogue of Gifford's works. He painted additional Venetian works, according to biographer Ila Weiss. In 1875, he wrote to a friend: "I have painted so many Venetian pictures during the last five years that I have lately declined to paint them when they have been asked for. One can't stay in Venice forever any more than one can eat partridge every day." In the same letter, he wrote about his commission fees: "The price of such a picture the size of the [Fishing Boats Entering the Harbor of] Brindisi is $1600 without the frame. That is the price I received for the Brindisi, [Lake] Geneva, and [Mount] Renier [sic] [- Bay of Tacoma].

"Chief pictures"
Gifford enclosed "A List of Some of My Chief Pictures" in a November 6, 1874 letter to Octavius Brooks Frothingham. He updated that list in 1880. Many of these works were characterized by a hazy atmosphere with soft, suffused sunlight. He often painted a large body of water in the foreground or middle distance, in which the distant landscape would be gently reflected.

Death and legacy
In June 1877, at age 53, Gifford married Mary Cecilia Canfield (1824-1887), the widow of a friend. They had no children.

On August 29, 1880, Gifford died in New York City, after having been diagnosed with malarial fever. That autumn, the Metropolitan Museum of Art organized a memorial exhibition of 160 of his works. "The Gifford collection comprises nearly 70 pictures, and enough studies for pictures to bring the total up to 160 numbers. It occupies the entire west gallery. While the limited time allowed for the formation of the collection and the inconvenient season for securing loans prevented that completeness of representation which was desired, yet enough has been gathered to exhibit successfully the extent, the beauty, and the real power of Mr. Gifford's work, as well as its defects and limitations. Among the more important pictures that are displayed may be noted Twilight in the Wilderness (1861), Kauterskill Clove (1863), Mansfield Mountain (1868), The Mouth of the Shrewsbury (1868), Sta. Maria della Salute (1870), Tivoli (1870), San Giorgio (1870), A Venetian Twilight (1878), The Matterhorn at Sunrise (1879), The Parthenon (1880), and Venice (1880)." The following year, MMA published a catalog of his works, which listed 734 paintings and featured an appraisal of his work by his friend, John F. Weir of Yale University: "Mr. S. R. Gifford was represented [at the 1876 Centennial Exposition] by his Sunrise on the Sea-Shore, of which it may be said that the sea and its solitude has seldom inspired a more profound motive, or one more adequately rendered, than this picture. Tivoli and Lake Geneva are no less admirable, but with a very distinct sentiment, and Pallanza, Lago Maggiore has a full-blooded sense of light, modified by tone that is in every respect masterly in treatment. Two pictures by the same artist, Fishing-Boats of the Adriatic and San Giorgio, Venice, are as strong and pronounced in color as the former works are delicate and suggestive. The artist is varied in his powers, and sustained, free, and finished in his methods. His pictures always manifest great elevation of thought and feeling. They are the interpretation of the profound sentiments of Nature rather than of her superficial aspects."

Two-hundred-ninety-four of Gifford's paintings were to be auctioned at Madison Square Garden in two sessions. Part 1 went off without a hitch, but Part 2 had a tragic end. "The same lesson is also enforced by the sale of the pictures and sketches of the late Sanford R. Gifford, the most important sale, so far as American art in concerned, held in a long while. The collection consisted of 294 sketches and finished works, which were sold in two divisions, on the evenings of April 11th and 12th, and 28th and 29th, and realized an aggregate $42,200. The highest price was paid for the finished picture, The Ruins of the Parthenon, which was bought for the Corcoran Gallery of Art, at Washington, for $5,100." The preview for the second session, on the evening of April 21, was advertised as a benefit for New York City's Hahnemann Hospital. The crowd was larger than anticipated, and with some 800 people packed into the building, the floor of the ballroom collapsed, in what became known as the Madison Square Garden disaster. Five people were killed and twenty-two were injured.

Between 1955 and 1973, Gifford's heirs donated the artist's letters and personal papers to the Archives of American Art, at the Smithsonian Institution. In 2007, these papers were digitally scanned in their entirety and made available to researchers as the Sanford Robinson Gifford Papers Online. Twenty-four of Gifford's sketchbooks survive, and are in the collections of Yale University, the Brooklyn Museum, Vassar College, and elsewhere.

2008 National Academy of Design controversy
In December 2008, one of Gifford's paintings, Mount Mansfield, Vermont (1859), became part of a controversy over deaccessioning by the National Academy of Design. The Academy was a member of the Association of Art Museum Directors, whose policy stated that member museums could not sell works of art to cover operating expenses, only to purchase superior works or to weed out inferior or redundant ones. Prior to joining AAMD, the Academy had sold two Thomas Eakins works (including his "diploma painting," Wrestlers) in the 1970s, and Richard Caton Woodville's War News from Mexico (1848) in 1994. According to its former curator, David Dearinger: "When the Academy later applied to the museum association for accreditation, Mr. Dearinger recalled, it was asked about the Woodville sale and promised not to repeat such a move."

In a 2008 sale, the Academy quietly sold Frederic Edwin Church‘s Scene on the Magdalene (1854) and Sanford Gifford's Mount Mansfield, Vermont (1859) to a private collector for US$13.5 million. The former was the Academy's only painting by Church; the latter was its only painting by Gifford. Both had been "donated to the Academy in 1865 by another painter, James Augustus Suydam." News of the sale was broken by arts blogger Lee Rosenbaum. As punishment for these actions, AAMD asked its other member museums to "cease lending artworks to the Academy and collaborating with it on exhibitions." The Academy had contemplated selling additional paintings, but those plans were abandoned after being reported by Rosenbaum.

Selected works
NOTE : Gifford's "Chief Pictures" are listed in bold.

Europe

 * Derwentwater (c. 1856), Brooklyn Museum of Art
 * Lake Nemi (1856–57), Toledo Museum of Art, Toledo, Ohio
 * Saint Peter's from Pincian Hill (1865), Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts
 * Monte Ferro - Lago Maggiore (1868), private collection. Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia.
 * The Lagoons of Venice (1869), March-Billings-Rockefeller National Historical Park, Woodstock, Vermont
 * related: Venetian Sails (1873), unlocated. Painted for John Jacob Astor. Exhibited at National Academy of Design, 1874.
 * related: Venetian Sails, A Study (1873), Washington University Museum of Art, St. Louis
 * Fishing Boats of the Adriatic (1869). Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia.
 * Pallanza, Lago Maggiore (1869), private collection. Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia.
 * San Giorgio, Venice (circa 1869), unlocated. Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia.  Exhibited at the 1878 Paris Salon.
 * related: Venice, San Giorgio Maggiore (1870), Loeb Art Center, Vassar College, Poughkeepsie, New York.
 * Tivoli (1870), Metropolitan Museum of Art. Commissioned by Robert Gordon. Exhibited at the National Academy of Design in 1870. Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia.
 * related: A View near Tivoli (1872), private collection
 * Isola Bella in Lago Maggiore (1871), Metropolitan Museum of Art
 * related: Lago Maggiore (1854), Loeb Art Center, Vassar College, Poughkeepsie, New York
 * related: Lake Maggiore, Italy (1858), New-York Historical Society
 * Santa Maria della Salute, Venice (1871). Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia.
 * Schloss Rheinstein (1872), Washington University Art Museum, St. Louis.
 * Fishing Boats Entering the Harbor at Brindisi (c. 1874)
 * On the Lake of Geneva, near Villeneuve, with the Alps (1875), Rhode Island School of Design. Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia.
 * A Venetian Twilight (1878), private collection
 * Galleries of the Stelvio, Lake Como (1878), Munson-Williams-Proctor Art Institute, Utica, New York
 * related: Sketch of Stelvio Road, Como (dated Aug. 6, 1868), Thyssen-Bornemisza Museum, Madrid, Spain
 * Villa Malta, Rome (1879), Smithsonian American Art Museum
 * The Matterhorn at Sunrise (1879), 40" x 28", private collection. Purchased by George C. Clark for $950 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings. Photos and sketches of SRG's visit to the Matterhorn are available via the Smithsonian Web site.
 * Ruins of the Parthenon (1880), National Gallery of Art, Washington, D.C. Purchased for the Corcoran Gallery of Art for $5,100 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings, an auction record for the artist.
 * related: The Parthenon (1869), Middlebury College Museum of Art, Vermont
 * Venice (1880), unlocated. Exhibited at the Brooklyn Art Association, 1880
 * The Golden Horn (1873). Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia. The Golden Horn was a ship in Constantinople harbor.
 * related: Constantinople from The Golden Horn (1880), Munson-Williams-Proctor Art Institute, Utica, New York

Middle East

 * On the Nile (1871), Detroit Institute of Arts. Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia.
 * related: Gebel Haridi, on the Nile (1868), Loeb Art Center, Vassar College, Poughkeepsie, New York
 * related: A Sketch of the Nile (1869), private collection
 * related: On the Nile, Gebel Shekh Hereedee (1872), private collection
 * Siout, Egypt (1874), National Gallery of Art Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia.
 * related: Siout, Capital of Upper Egypt (1869), private collection
 * Leander's Tower on the Bosphorus (1876), Fogg Museum, Harvard University

United States

 * Morning in the Adirondacks (1854), oval canvas, 41" x 36", Westervelt-Warner collection, Tuscaloosa, Alabama
 * Sunset in the Shawagunk Mountains (1854), oval canvas, 41" x 36", Westervelt-Warner collection, Tuscaloosa, Alabama
 * Mount Mansfield (1858), Manoogian collection (on loan to Detroit Institute of Arts)
 * related: Sketch for Mount Mansfield (1858), Springfield Museums, Massachusetts
 * Mount Mansfield, Vermont (1859), private collection. Deaccessioned by National Academy of Design, 2008
 * Early October in the White Mountains (1860), Washington University Art Gallery, St. Louis
 * related: Mount Washington from the Saco River (1858), High Museum of Art, Atlanta
 * related: Indian Summer in the White Mountains (Mount Washington from the Saco) (1862), Mint Museum of Art, Charlotte, North Carolina
 * related: The White Mountains (Mount Washington from the Saco) (1871), New Britain Museum of American Art
 * The Wilderness (1860), Toledo Museum of Art, Toledo, Ohio
 * related: The Wilderness (1861), private collection
 * related: Lake Scene - Mountain Background (1861), Addison Gallery of American Art
 * Twilight in the Catskills (1861), Yale University Art Gallery
 * A Gorge in the Mountains (Kauterskill Falls) (1862), Metropolitan Museum of Art
 * related: October in the Catskills (1880), Los Angeles County Museum of Art
 * related: Kauterskill Clove, Catskill Mountains (1880), Art Institute of Chicago
 * The Catskill Mountain House (1862), private collection. Purchased by E. H. Gordon for $505 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * On the Bronx River (1862). Exhibited at 1876 Centennial, Philadelphia. Sold for $310 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * A Coming Storm (1863, retouched by Gifford 1880), Philadelphia Museum of Art
 * related: A Coming Storm on Lake George (c. 1863), private collection
 * related: A Coming Shower over Black Mountain, Lake George (c. 1877), 18" x 34", private collection. Purchased by George C. Clark for $1,025 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * A Sudden Storm, Lake George (1877), private collection.
 * A View from South Mountain in the Catskills (c. 1863), unlocated. Exhibited at the National Academy of Design, 1864. Sold for $300 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * related: The View from South Mountain in the Catskills, A Sketch (1865), private collection
 * related: The View from South Mountain in the Catskills (1871), St. Johnsbury Athenaeum, Vermont.
 * related: Autumn in the Catskills (1871), The Parthenon, Nashville, Tennessee
 * related: Study for The View from South Mountain in the Catskills (1873), private collection
 * related: The Hudson Valley from South Mountain (1873). Sold for $215 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * A Twilight in the Adirondacks (1864), private collection. Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia.
 * The Artist Sketching at Mount Desert, Maine (1864-1865), National Gallery of Art
 * An October Afternoon (1865), upright composition, unlocated
 * related: An October Afternoon (1871), Museum of Fine Arts, Boston
 * Sandy Hook (1865), Whitney Museum of American Art
 * Manchester Beach, Massachusetts (1865), Thyssen-Bornemisza Collection, Madrid, Spain. Sold for $205 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * A Passing Storm in the Adirondacks (1866), Wadsworth Atheneum, Hartford, Connecticut
 * Rocks at Porcupine Island, near Mount Desert (1866), Farnsworth Art Museum, Rockland, Maine. Sold for $230 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * A Home in the Wilderness (1866), Cleveland Museum of Art, Cleveland, Ohio. Exhibited at the 1867 Exposition Universelle in Paris.
 * related: Mountain Landscape (undated), Yale University Art Gallery
 * Hunter Mountain, Twilight (1866), Terra Foundation, Chicago. Exhibited at the 1867 Exposition Universelle in Paris. This painting helped to inspire the creation of the Catskill and Adirondack Forest Preserves.
 * related: A Study of Hunter Mountain at Twilight (c. 1865), private collection
 * Morning in the Hudson, Haverstraw Bay (1866), Terra Foundation, Chicago
 * related: Haverstraw Bay (1868), Cleveland Museum of Art
 * related: Tappan Zee (1879-1880), private collection
 * Hook Mountain, near Nyack on the Hudson (1866), Yale University Art Gallery. Sold for $300 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * related: Hook Mountain on the Hudson River (1867), private collection
 * Echo Lake, Franconia Notch, White Mountains (c. 1866), Adirondack Museum, Blue Mountain Lake, New York. Sold for $215 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * Sunrise on the Sea-Shore (1867), unlocated. Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia. Sold for $305 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * related: Sunrise, Long Branch, New Jersey, (1864), private collection.
 * related: Long Branch Beach (1867), Palmer Museum of Art, State College, Pennsylvania
 * related: Beach Scene (c. 1870), Edison National Historic Site, West Orange, New Jersey
 * Sunset over the Mouth of the Shrewsbury River (1868), private collection. Exhibited at the 1876 Centennial Exposition, Philadelphia.
 * Shrewsbury River, Sandy Hook (1868), unlocated.
 * Valley of the Chugwater, Wyoming Territory (1870), Amon Carter Museum, Fort Worth, Texas
 * related Red Buttes, Wyoming Territory (1870), unlocated
 * Mount Hood and the Dalles, Columbia River, Oregon (1870), private collection. Exhibited at the National Academy of Design in 1870. (See Note A, below)
 * Kauterskill Falls (1871), Detroit Institute of Arts
 * Outlet of Catskill Lake (1872), Loeb Art Center, Vassar College, Poughkeepsie, New York. Sold for $275 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * Mount Rainier, Bay of Tacoma (1875), Seattle Art Museum. Exhibited at the 1878 Paris Salon.
 * related: Mount Rainier, Washington Territory (1874), private collection
 * Autumn - A Catskills Wood Path (1876), Cleveland Museum of Art. Purchased by J. G. Brown for $255 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings.
 * An Indian Summer Day on the Claverack Creek (1877), Metropolitan Museum of Art
 * A Sunset, Bay of New York (1878), Everson Museum of Art, Syracuse, New York
 * related: Sunset over New York Bay (c. 1878), private collection
 * Sunset over the Palisades on the Hudson (1879), private collection
 * related: Sunset on the Hudson (1876), Wadsworth Athenaeum, Hartford, Connecticut
 * related: The Palisades (1877), Williams College Museum of Art, Williamstown, Massachusetts

American Civil War

 * Preaching to the Troops - Sunday Morning at Camp Cameron (1861), Union League Club of New York. Painted from Meridian Hill, Georgetown, Washington, D.C., about two miles northwest of the U.S. Capitol.
 * Bivouac of the Seventh Regiment at Arlington Heights, Virginia (1861). Purchased by William Schaus for $630 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings. Reportedly, damaged in the April 21, 1881 Madison-Square Garden disaster.
 * related: Bivouac of the Seventh Infantry (1861)
 * Baltimore in 1862: A Sunset from Federal Hill (1862), Seventh Regiment Armory, New York City. Sold for $325 at the posthumous April 11 & 12, 1881 auction of Gifford's paintings. Reportedly, damaged in the April 21, 1881 Madison Square Garden disaster.
 * related: The Basin of the Patapsco from Federal Hill, Baltimore (c. 1862), private collection
 * Camp of the Seventh Regiment, near Frederick, Maryland, in July 1863 (1864), Seventh Regiment Armory, New York City

title: Sanford Robinson Gifford


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Talk:Elie Hobeika

POV
This is arguably the very worst page I've ever read on Wikipedia. I hope to find some time to take the evident bias out of it. Whether one likes it or not, Elie Hobeika has openly admitted to orchestrating a massacre in the camps of Sabra and Chatilla, and there is much speculation that he was killed to save embarassment to the Israeli Prime Minister (Defence Minister at the time of the massacres). To call the man a hero is patently absurd, perhaps a repentant tyrant is more fitting.

If us Lebanese don't start embracing and accepting the problems of our past, we're doomed to repeat them.

155.136.80.162 11:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Wael

 * EH was the commander of the forces that entered the camps. His "admission" was not news.

 * EH was never a "tyrant". The Lebanese (with Syrian aquiescence) made him a minister less than 10 years after the massacre, but it was a formally legitimate move by a formally legitimate government.

 * And yes, this may be the worst article on Wikipedia, but some fellow keeps reverting back. Go figure. elpincha 14:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Corrupt Users as of 9/07/07 Make Page Bunk
'''At least one user is changing information to purge the biography of anything unseemly that Hobeika did during his life.The User named Mirvate generally alters the page to include subjective opinions, distortions of known or commonly held facts,and deletions of facts to further the above aim. This generally involves deleting anything connecting Habeika to the massacres at Sarma or his larger role in the Lebanese civil war. It also involves adding unsupported and irrelevant accusations of a decidedly anti-western bent; as well as unsupported material regarding the perpetrators of Hobeika's death. This article is at odds with every other Wikipedia article that discusses Hobeika as well as reliable sources related to the man and his life.'''

I don't have an dog in this fight, I had never even heard of the man before today. After reading much that he was involved in I found my here to see that it was purged from his biography. Instead it described as a "brave defender of the Lebanese..." and other such pandering nonsense that has no place in Wikipedia, and "during the Lebanese civil war he was having tea and napping- that is it. And any insinuations to the contrary is a zionist insult to the brave martyrs! Tea and Napping Alone!". Those are not really quotes but the general gist of it. The silliest one went something like "and zionist Wikepdia users will never succeed in sullying the name of this good man!" or something like that. Look in the history.

My familiarity with Wikipedia is limited and I have no idea what to do in these circumstances, but users like Mirvate should be banned with anyone else who attempts to further an agenda or some hobby horse. This page should be protected and rewritten.'''

indeed -- "pandering nonsense" it is. I only arrived here because the article was on the Wikipedia front page today. It's a lesson in what a Wikipedia article would look like if ... well, I don't know quite what went wrong or how to prevent it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard8081 (talk • contribs) 14:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Myth vs Facts
When I started working on this topic, I found this interesting story that I did not heard of previously (it was already in the article). It says that Hobeika fiancé was raped and killed in Damour. I did some searching : Fisk says that it happened in 75 but other sources on the internet say it's in 76, during damour's massacre. Other sources say that Hobeika lost some of his relatives in Damur. Does somebody know anything about this? Complte fabrication. this story is totally UNTRUE, it is pure fiction.

I kept the story unchanged in the article, but I would like some data on it to be sure. --equitor 16:55, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Here the number of people killed in the 1985 car bomb is stated as "more than 45". ; in the entry for Mohammad Hussein Fadlallah it is stated as 80. Can anyone who feels confident about their sources reconcile these articles? --Dcaron 12:45, 16 September 2005 (UTC) Complete fabrication again. Elie Hobeika had Nothing to do with The hit on fadlallah.

***
I've tagged this article with unreferenced. I just want to make clear that I do this with no personal bias or malicious intent, but simply because though this is a well written article and apparently well sourced as things stand not a single one of the sources is referenced. There's no ==References== section at all. I would suggest that somebody well informed on the subject (which I freely admit I'm not) add a reference section and cite all the factual claims in the article, or at least any that might be disputed. See WP:CITE for help, or feel free to give me a shout. -- Daduzi  talk  00:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed that this page has recently been changed into what appears to be at best a very long, biased rant, at worst vandalism. the links and 'sources are all the same. so i can only assume that the accounts are just sock puppets. is there any way to bring this page to attention for a little protection? 168.103.247.124 18:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Semiprotection
I have asked that this article is semiprotected at Requests for page protection. Thuresson 19:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The article still needs alot of work, (post Lebanese civil war section)--Skatewalk 17:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

POV
Can we please keep the article clean?
 * The tripartite agreement is important because it gave Syria what it wanted!(Breaking the LF)
 * The tripatite was the height of his political career. (eventually his stances will change as usual~in Lebanon, but this has to be clearly mentioned woithout POV).
 * After the civil war is another section (that needs alot of work), because thats another Hobeika.--Skatewalk 17:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

A lot of controversy and poorly written article
It seems to be that this page is a mess and considering the nature of Hobeika's involvement in Lebanese, Israeli politics, including the Lebanese civil war and the Sabra and Shatila massacre which is oversaw, there is not much information. I just did a brief writing on his assassination which was left blank for some reason. Israel is not the only one who could have gained from his murder, Syria could have killed him because he was going to talk to the CIA and leave Lebanon, and the Lebanese Forces had already tried to kill him in 1991. The Palestinians had a natural reason to kill him due to his involvement in the massacres.
 * --Eternalsleeper 21:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

This is a laughable and ridiculous article
All smoke screens and mirrors to obfuscate basic facts, and no mention of the most damning evidence of all against Hobeika, the autobiography written by his own bodyguard and hired gun, Robert Maroun Hatem. Hobeika wasn't killed for anything he had on Sharon. It is laughable to believe that Sharon felt any threat from the Belgian "court proceedings", or that he would have had any intention of travelling to Belgium had any proceedings actually taken place. These would-be proceedings were not regarded as anything more than a gimmick or a bad joke in Israel. No, Hobeika was a double agent, working for Syria, and it was for fear of making revelations to implicate Syria that Hobeika was eliminated. J.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 22:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Oliver North
Article says "Oliver north led a coup". This sounds non-sensical to me, but perhaps my knowladge of history is lacking. Could anyone point to any references that confirm this information? 84.228.248.105 (talk) 22:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

 * User:Mirvate changed "Samir Geagea led a coup..." to "Oliver North led a coup..." (diff). Mirvate has since been permanently blocked. Thuresson (talk) 21:10, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Did a bit of a rewrite
I did a bit of a rewrite after someone completely emptied the article claiming it was POV. It is less POV now. Certainly there is more that could be written but it was a very complicated time in Lebanon and it will not be easy to write a good clear and understandable article about this controversial character. According to the Guardian article, most of what we "know" is colored by the POV of the book written by his bodyguard, so unless we have newspapers and reliable sources for our information we should refrain from adding it. It would be great is someone could find reliable references (WP:RS) for the information that is already given. I would remind some here that blogs and "Blogspots" are not acceptable sources. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Additions and Corrections
It's a pity this article is protected from editing, as there are some details that should be added (which are readily available in other language parallels), as well some minor corrections that should be made. Notably I would have liked to add more details about the assassination, and to change the unclear "MP" in the introduction (which leads to a disambiguation page) to the clearer (and unambiguous) phrase "Member of Parliament". 217.132.169.181 (talk) 00:42, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Anon, I encourage you to make your edits here. Perhaps if they are seen as legitimate edits properly sourced, we can get protection lifted and put the information in. At least when the page is unprotected, your material will be available. Tundrabuggy (talk) 05:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment
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title: Talk:Elie Hobeika


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Portal:Malaysia/Malaysia news

 * 12 May 2021: The 3rd movement control order throughout the country takes effect. (The Edge Markets)

title: Portal:Malaysia/Malaysia news


text:
Barrack-Room Ballads

The Barrack-Room Ballads are a series of songs and poems by Rudyard Kipling, dealing with the late-Victorian British Army and mostly written in a vernacular dialect. The series contains some of Kipling's best-known works, including the poems "Gunga Din", "Tommy", "Mandalay", and "Danny Deever", helping consolidate his early fame as a poet.

The first poems were published in the Scots Observer in the first half of 1890, and collected in Barrack-Room Ballads and Other Verses in 1892. Kipling later returned to the theme in a group of poems collected in The Seven Seas under the same title. A third group of vernacular Army poems from the Boer War, titled "Service Songs" and published in The Five Nations (1903), can be considered part of the Ballads, as can a number of other uncollected pieces.

Defining the canon
While two volumes of Kipling's poems are clearly labelled as "Barrack-Room Ballads", identifying which poems should be grouped in this way can be complex.

The main collection of the Ballads was published in the 1890s, in two volumes: Barrack-Room Ballads and Other Verses (1892, the first major publishing success for Methuen) and The Seven Seas (1896), sometimes published as The Seven Seas and Further Barrack-Room Ballads. In both books, they were collected into a specific section set aside from the other poems, and can be easily identified. (Barrack-Room Ballads and Other Verses has an introductory poem ("To T.A.") in Kipling's own voice, which is strictly not part of the set but is often collected with them.)

A third group of poems, published in 1903 in The Five Nations, continued the theme of military vernacular ballads; while they were titled "Service Songs", they fit well with the themes of the earlier ballads and are clearly connected.

Charles Carrington produced the first comprehensive volume of the Ballads in 1973, mainly drawn from these three collections but including five additional pieces not previously collected under the title. Three of these date from the same period: an untitled vernacular poem ("My girl she gave me the go onst") taken from a short story, The Courting of Dinah Shadd, in Life's Handicap (1891); Bobs (1893), a poem praising Lord Roberts; and The Absent-Minded Beggar (1899), a poem written to raise funds for the families of soldiers called up for the Boer War.

The remaining two date from the First World War; Carrington considered Epitaphs of the War, written in a first-person style, and Gethsemane, also in a soldier's voice, to meet his definition. Both were published in The Years Between (1919). Kipling wrote profusely on military themes during the war, but often from a more detached perspective than the first-person vernacular he had previously adopted.

Finally, there are some confusingly captioned pieces. Many of Kipling's short stories were introduced with a short fragment of poetry, sometimes from an existing poem and sometimes an incidental new piece. These were often identified "A Barrack-Room Ballad", though not all the poems they were taken from would otherwise be collected or classed this way. This includes pieces such as the introductory poem to My Lord the Elephant (from Many Inventions, 1899), later collected in Songs from Books but not identified as a Ballad. It is not clear if these were deliberately omitted by Carrington or if he explicitly chose not to include them.

The poems

 * From Barrack-Room Ballads and Other Verses

 * "Dedication: To T.A."
 * "Danny Deever"
 * "Tommy"
 * "Fuzzy-Wuzzy"
 * "Soldier, Soldier"
 * "Screw-Guns"
 * "Cells"
 * "Gunga Din"
 * "Oonts"
 * "Loot"
 * "Snarleyow"
 * "The Widow at Windsor"
 * "Belts"
 * "The Young British Soldier"
 * "Mandalay"
 * "Troopin'
 * "The Widow's Party"
 * "Ford o' Kabul River"
 * "Gentlemen-Rankers"
 * "Route Marchin'
 * "Shillin' a Day"

 * From The Seven Seas

 * "Back to the Army Again"
 * "Birds of Prey" March
 * "Soldier an' Sailor Too"
 * "Sappers"
 * "That Day"
 * "The Men That Fought at Minden"
 * "Cholera Camp"
 * "The Ladies"
 * "Bill 'Awkins"
 * "The Mother Lodge"
 * "Follow Me 'Ome"
 * "The Sergeant's Weddin'
 * "The Jacket"
 * "The 'Eathen"
 * "The Shut-Eye Sentry"
 * "Mary, Pity Women!"
 * "For to Admire"

 * Uncollected

 * Bobs
 * "My girl she gave me the go onst..."

Reception
T. S. Eliot, in his essay on Kipling for his 1941 anthology A Choice of Kipling's Verse, writes that many writers have written verse without writing poetry, but that Kipling was unusual in that he did write poetry without setting out to do so. In Eliot's view, this makes Kipling a 'ballad-writer', and that was already, he thought, more difficult in 1941 than in Kipling's time, as people no longer had the music hall to inspire them. Eliot thought Kipling's ballads unusual, also, in that Kipling had been careful to make it possible to absorb each ballad's message on a single hearing. But, wrote Eliot, Kipling had more to offer than that: he had "a consummate gift of word, phrase, and rhythm", never repeated himself, and used short, simple stanzas and rhyming schemes. What is more

"The variety of form which Kipling manages to devise for his ballads is remarkable: each is distinct, and perfectly fitted to the content and the mood which the poem has to convey. Nor is the versification too regular..."

- T.S. Eliot

title: Barrack-Room Ballads


text:
Talk:Relief Society

Recognition Section
I've added to this section. The RS tends to be an invisible charitable organiztion finding any honors or recognition has been difficult. Perhaps others will be able to find more than my single edition. RyanNerd (talk) 07:18, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

RS and plural marriage
The follow brief paragraph has been noted as needing citations since Nov. 2007. Although Emma Smith was noted for sharp sermons dealing with morality in the community, this info implies a significant relationship between the Relief Society and conflicts over plural marriage. I moved the paragraph here for comment and sourcing. WBardwin (talk) 05:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Emma Smith often used the Relief Society as a pulpit to express her opposition to plural marriage. Beause of this, Joseph Smith suspended all meetings of the Relief Society. After the death of Smith in June 1844, Brigham Young took over leadership of the Latter Day Saints. Desiring to continue plural marriage, Young completely disbanded the Relief Society before leaving Nauvoo for Utah Territory.

 * I'm surprised this has gone unfixed after 7 years, since it's an important part of the story. Sometimes I see histories vaguely imply that the RS had to stop because of the martyrdom, or the Illinois Mormon War, or the pioneer migration, but it happened abruptly before all that.  And its connection to polygamy is more interesting, fitting into the rising social tensions in Nauvoo at the time.  Here are a few source quotes so we can get this fixed up and back into the article:

 * We might also want to check the standards: Mormon Enigma (1994) [1984] and Women of Covenant (1992). I don't have them available at the moment. ——Rich jj (talk) 21:51, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

My last two edits to this page have been reverted. I think more needs to be said about the relationship between polygamy and the early relief society especially considering the role that polygamy played in joseph smith's decision to suspend the meetings of the relief society and brigham young's decision to disband the organization. The current article does mention how Emma used her position as relief society president as a platform for advocating against polygamy. The missing part is the fact that multiple women in the leadership of the relief society were secretly married to joseph smith either at the time of the RS founding or shortly thereafter. User:jgstokes, I think you might have gone a little too far in claiming that there is no reliable proof of joseph's polygamous marriages at that date. The page List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wives has multiple reliable sources for the 1841 marriage to Lousia Beaman. The marriage with Eliza Snow is also very well attested. I also don't see what's wrong with the source that I included that was taken from the list of sources above provided by Rich jj in the comment above.

Can we reach some agreement on what information the article should contain? Dithridge (talk) 08:10, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

 * First, I just want to say that I'm happy. Jgstokes recommended taking the issue to the talk page and Dithridge took the effort to write it up and mentioned my name so I was notified automatically, and now here we are.  Wikipedia can really work well sometimes.  And I will try to approach this significant, sensitive issue constructively and with empathy.
 * I think Joseph Smith's own plural marriages are relevant because they reflect how RS was on a collision course. Emma's interests as president conflicted with what the prophet was doing in private.  Some women publicly stood with Emma while she waged her morality campaign, while keeping their plural marriages secret.
 * The objections to this new content asked for reliable sources and to avoid conjecture. So I think we should focus on reliable sources that establish why JS plural marriages were relevant/significant in the story of the early RS.

"Of the twenty women at the meeting, one was first wife to Joseph Smith, one gave him her daughter as a plural wife, two were offered the chance to become his wives but declined, and five more, thus invited, accepted. Most of these negotiations took place within weeks before or after the 17 March meeting. Besides those involved with Joseph Smith in plural marriage, three women of the group were married to other men who took plural wives.' ... 'The third season began auspiciously in the spring of 1844 with Emma Smith again taking the lead. Knowing the limits of space, she conducted the same meeting four times, at ten o’clock and one o’clock on March 9 and 16. There she delivered a double-talk indictment of plural marriage, a coded but unmistakable opposition to the practice which her husband was ever more widely promulgating. After those four sessions, as John Taylor later explained, 'the meetings were discontinued' because 'Emma Smith the Pres[ident] taught the sisters that the principle of plural marriage … was not of God.'. Article was originally published in Journal of Mormon History 9 (1982): 25-39." "The Relief Society’s minutes hint at the complicated networks of loyalty that Emma’s friends and Joseph’s plural wives struggled to maintain during this time. Members were exhorted by both Joseph and their president, Emma, to obey the prophet. Between 24 March and 31 August 1842, Joseph and Emma made eight separate attempts to counter “scandalous” claims of sexual impropriety—including rumors of polygamy—leveled against Joseph Smith and others. Both also lectured members on the importance of refraining from gossip and speculation. ... Soon after the society’s founding, it became a vehicle for Emma’s opposition to plurality. In fact, at each of the society’s March 1842 meetings, Emma began with a reading of W. W. Phelps’s text, “The Voice of Innocence,” an eloquent plea for the protection of “virtuous mothers, wives and daughters of Nauvoo” against “debauchees, vagabonds, and rakes.” Not at all subtle, she then called upon the women “to examin[e] the conduct of their leaders of this Society—that you may sit in judgment on their heads.” Joseph also recognized the importance of these women and of correctly teaching them plural marriage. ... Within a month after the society’s organization in March 1842, four of Joseph’s plural wives, including Zina and Presendia, had joined the group. During its first year, Joseph married at least fifteen more women, including ten from the society’s own ranks. Regardless of the good the group accomplished, the relationships between Emma and Joseph, between plural wives, and the complications of keeping the principle secret made it impossible to continue operating, and the society’s last meeting was held on 16 March 1844."

 * Perhaps we could add something like the following (in the bold): "Smith had often used the Relief Society as a pulpit to express her opposition to plural marriage. However, several among the membership were themselves secretly in plural marriages, including to Emma's own husband.  These inner conflicts with church leadership led Joseph Smith to suspend Because of this, Joseph Smith suspended all meetings of the organization."  What do you think?  ——Rich jj (talk) 21:19, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

This is a step in the right direction, in my opinion. Note that Emma's counselor in the relief society let her daughter marry joseph. Also, Eliza Snow, who wrote the constitution that they took to Joseph Smith would soon marry Joseph. These are not just random members of the early RS but actual leaders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dithridge (talk • contribs) 22:35, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I think I can agree with the turn this discussion has taken. I am in the unique position of being an active, believing member of the LDS Church who nonetheless has had to put aside what I believe to be truth in favor of that which can be reasonably verified by a proper reliable source. Truth is far different from verifiability. And as a Wikipedian, I have come to realize that there are two sides to every issue. That's why, while I might initially object to things that portray my faith, such as it is, in a negative light, I recognize the importance of telling all sides of an issue. My main objections to the addition of this material were not theologically driven, but rather were raised because I was not satisfied that the claims, such as they were, were suitable for inclusion as written. Now that the proposed content has been discussed in an effort to bring it into conformity with Wikipedia policy, I have no objections to the newly-proposed wording or sources. All I was aiming for was to attempt to establish by consensus something that, by all appearances, was being pushed as one person's perspective on the issue. That's why I have found the principle of consensus to be so helpful. And I always find it wiser to put massively proposed changes under proper scrutiny, discussion, and study before a decision is made by a majority opinion. With that in mind, given the discussion, anything I might have objected to in reverting the edit in question is completely resolved, in my view. Hope that helps explain my perspective better. --Jgstokes (talk) 07:03, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Jgstokes, your perspective is quite valid and even greatly valuable to WP. Articles should pass the reasonable scrutiny of believers and unbelievers, liberals and conservatives, etc. Without diversity of input, articles might reflect only one point of view.  I like that at WP we engage in debate together, not for the sake of debate, but to produce work that attempts to be honest and fair, for the benefit of the greater public.  I am also an active, faithful LDS member who has found my own way to come to terms with unpleasant information related to my faith.  Each person's faith is their own, so you and I might differ in some viewpoints, and my faith even differs from my younger self.  And I agree with scrutiny and discussion of large changes, though this change was more large in controversy than in text.  The challenge is to avoid endless debate and becoming embattled, and to give room for empathy.  I'm happy with how we engaged each other.
 * Dithridge, I had also considered saying something about RS leadership, but was trying to be concise. But I agree it matters that the conflict touched Emma's inner circle of confidants.  And I after my previous comment, I found a great Journal of Mormon History article from 2013 that added detail about these conflicts.  I'm thinking about using this text: "Smith had often used the Relief Society as a pulpit to express her opposition to plural marriage.  However, several of the society's members and leaders were themselves secretly in plural marriages, including to Smith's own husband, who himself counseled the society to be cautious about exposing immorality.  These inner conflicts led Because of this, Joseph Smith to suspend ed all meetings of the organization."  ——Rich jj (talk) 15:48, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Jgstokes and Rich jj for this discussion Dithridge (talk) 01:24, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Relief Society in the General Latter Day Saint Movement
Since the Relief Society started out in Nauvoo with Emma Smith and she ended up with the RLDS church, dose anyone know if any other sect in the Latter Day Saint movement have their own Relief Society the same as the LDS Church. If they do, I think it's worth mentioning them also.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 17:36, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

 * I know nothing about this, but I found L. Madelon Brunson wrote a 1981 thesis (OCLC 7893406) about the RLDS women's organization, and then had it published in 1985 (OCLC 10780464 ; ISBN 0830904018). I don't have access to these.  ——Rich jj (talk) 22:03, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

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Selection of presidencies at the general and local level
I notice there is a bit of an edit war going on over whether or not to include that leaders are selected by the First Presidency and local Bishopric. I can see how this could be presented in a disparaging way, but feel it is relevant information and should be included in as NPOV way possible. I recommend including how Relief Society leaders are selected. Epachamo (talk) 01:31, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

 * This entire wiki article is baffling to me, it reads as a hagiography and having read the edit history, it seems every attempt is made to keep out anything that could, in any way, make the Relief Society look anything less than perfect.
 * A major omission in the governance section is the fact that women cannot ever hold the positions that decide who is called to lead the relief society at any level of the church, what budgets are for the relief society at any level of the church, and what is taught during relief society meetings via the mormon church's internal correlated education system.
 * For someone coming to wikipedia to learn about what is often touted as 'one of the world's largest womens' organizations' by the mormon church, this is a massive omission and, in my opinion (based on how hard anything negative is fought against), I'm having a hard time thinking it isn't intentional. I'd love to be wrong however.
 * How does one propose additions to the current text, or the creation of another section such as "Criticisms of The Relief Society"? 47.160.82.21 (talk) 20:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Relief Society


text:
1904 in archaeology

Below are notable events in archaeology that occurred in 1904.

Events

 * March 18 – Ancient Monuments Preservation Act 1904 passed in British India.

Explorations

 * Leo Frobenius makes an expedition to the Kasai region of the Belgian Congo.

Excavations

 * Edward Herbert Thompson dredges artifacts from the Sacred Cenote at Chichen Itza.
 * First formal excavations at Aphrodisias in Anatolia, by French railroad engineer Paul Augustin Gaudin, begin.
 * Oseberg ship.

Finds

 * Tomb of Nefertari discovered by Ernesto Schiaparelli.
 * Winter 1904–5 – Inscription in a form of Proto-Sinaitic script, dated to the mid-19th century BCE, discovered in Sinai by Hilda and Flinders Petrie.
 * Approximate date – Broe helmet.
 * Group of Aphrodite, Pan and Eros in Delos, Greece.

Publications

 * Rudolf Ernst Brünnow and Alfred von Domaszewski begin publication of Die Provincia Arabia, containing a detailed description of Petra.

Births

 * January 19 – Pei Wenzhong, founding father of Chinese anthropology (died 1982).
 * February 11 – Alan Sorrell, English archaeological illustrator (died 1974).
 * May 6 – Max Mallowan, English archaeologist (died 1978).

Deaths

 * March – Alexander Stuart Murray, Scottish archaeologist and museum curator (born 1841).
 * November 20 – Luigi Palma di Cesnola, Italian American soldier, diplomat, archaeologist and museum director (born 1832)

title: 1904 in archaeology


text: User talk:68.161.104.198

title: User talk:68.161.104.198