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Talk:7 July 2005 London bombings/Archive 6

Rumors
Think it's time to report the - so far fairly wild - speculation on possible future arrests of various London figures said to have ties to Abu Qatada? Or should we wait till they're actually arrested? If the former, note that while the Times seems to have gotten the Garbuzi story right, some other papers mistakenly reported that he had "disappeared", only to have him turn up at the al-Jazeera London office this evening. - Mustafaa 00:26, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

From 81.79.88.156
" Discounting the Suicide Bomber Theory A witness who was on the number 30 bus which exploded at Upper Woburn Street had described on national television news how he was "irritated" by a man with "olive coloured skin" fidgeting with a bag at the back of the upper deck of the bus. One could assume that the timing of the detonation - 9.37am - was designed to be one hour after the tube bombs exploded, and more than likely not on a bus but on a further tube train. The bus bombing seems therefore to have been the result of an ironic turn of events. Due to the events that had happened at 8.50am, people had been turned away from Tube stations and onto buses. With the streets becoming busier the number 30 took a diversion from its route into Tavistock Square. If the man described above was intending to leave this bomb somewhere else, then he must have been trying to delay the explosion. The very fact his fellow bombers had caused disruption to the transport system was now having a knock on effect on his own efforts. In grim conclusion, one could say that with - at current numbers - 12 dead on the bus as opposed to the 20/30+ that died at Kings Cross, the bomb on the bus claimed less lives that it was meant to. " There's nothing obviously wrong with this, but it's speculation and needs something backing it up before it can be included. --Mr. Billion 07:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Is the number of deaths first reported important enough for the first paragraph?
It seems to me that the first paragraph should have the most current information (incidentally, the Guardian is now saying the death toll is in more like 70 ). The fact that initial reports said 37 had died is relevant enough for a chronology of the events, but why put it in the first paragraph? The first reports of casualities are always underreported in events like these - I think what matters, at least for the indroductory paragraph, is the most-currently-known information. Moncrief 03:20, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

 * Initial reports said 20, then 2 (possibley other number were mentioned in other orders). Initial estimates aren't always low, Clapham, IIRC turned out to havve much lower fatalities than at first believed. 9/11 had a lesser toll thn initially though I seem to remember. Rich Farmbrough 10:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * All right, point taken. The larger point is that the "first reports" of casualities don't belong in the introductory paragraph if the information is no longer up-to-date.  At any rate, it's been fixed since I made this suggestion. Moncrief 18:28, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

decluttered top
I moved some things at the top of the page around, so it didn't look so cluttered. Not totally sure why someone wanted the table of content on the right side, but it just didn't look right.--Kross 04:13, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

 * The most likely reason someone moved it to the right because it looks bad floated to the left. The "Bombings" section title has a line that extends into the Table of Contents's margin that way. I moved it back to the right as you can see. joturner 04:54, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

7 July 2005 London bombings memorials and services
I have created a stub for this article. Can everyone help and add a few things here? Thanks. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 04:40, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Non-British casualties of the 7 July 2005 London bombings
Uhh...other than a few folks, looks like most nations were not touched at all, unless I am looking in the wrong places. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 07:17, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Probably need to wait a few days or weeks. Unless they've issued lists of the 700+ injured people or the lesser number still in hospital, you won't find the information you need. The lists of missing people probably, sadly, indicate possible fatalities, but that is about all I can find. Carcharoth 10:33, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * NVM, this page is going to get whacked by the VFD process. Many of the things relating to this event are putting through various deletion processes, so it will be hard to collect information, and see it whacked a week later. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 16:50, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Opinions in External Links
This editor linked what was probably his own weird ramble on the subject of the London attacks. He suggested that it's good to get a Muslim perspective on this event, and that's true. However, I'm leery of this sort of bizarre ranting (the opinion piece's section on "Why Muslims are Better" and the bit about why Jews are "the worst of mankind" in particular). That's one Muslim perspective, but there are many Muslims and many perspectives, and we don't need this sort of crap. Mr. Billion 07:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I would have to agree that the external link should be removed, but on the grounds that it provides no additional content to the article which would be of a considerable encyclopedic nature. --HappyCamper 07:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Gone in sixty sconds.
Which version was shown? Rich Farmbrough 10:10, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * the new one, i saw 2 minutes of it when they broadcasted it. Cheers. Adidas 09:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Taking care when reverting vandalism
Can I please ask everyone to take care when reverting vandals? A vandalism reversion last night rolled the article back to a much older version, losing many legitimate edits in the process. I've restored these where appropriate, though it's been somewhat tricky because of subsequent editing. -- ChrisO 10:17, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Removed this text
Removed some text on the differing effects of the bombs due to the tunnel structures. As stated earlier in discussion page, I feel it is interesting but could be misconstrued. My initial reaction was that it was interesting, but then I realised that I wouldn't want everyone to know this level of detail. Carcharoth 10:29, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Perhaps you wouldn't, but we're not in the business of providing the level of detail that you personally want - we're dispassionately recording the relevant facts. Discussions of the bombs' effects have been in Saturday's newspapers as well as on the BBC at the moment - see e.g. the graphic at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4668675.stm . A similar graphic is included in the print version of the Guardian story at http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1524547,00.html . Saying that the damage will be worse if the explosion is in a confined space is hardly revolutionary new knowledge. -- ChrisO 10:31, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Anyone else have any opinions? As far as I can see, the BBC graphic is unaccompanied by the level of textual detail we provide. I'm not saying that it is revolutionary knowledge that an explosion in a confined space will be worse (so why bother saying this), merely that it seems unnecessary to make the specific link with the differing structures of London Underground tunnels. The BBC article does NOT make that specific link. Other sources might, but that does not allay my concerns. When do you cross the line between "dispassionately" recording "facts" (it is actually a theory to account for the death tolls - not a fact) and going into technical details about bombing. Carcharoth 10:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The popup (click 'Enlarge Image') in the article does make this specific link. I found this information interesting and relevant. In your earlier comment you stated concern for this information helping people plan new bombings, but this kind of information is not hard to come by. It would be legitimate for Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, to contain an article on bomb making. - Wgsimon 11:19, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The popup kept crashing my computer... Anyway, I see what you both mean about this information not being hard to come by, but would point out that the bombers might not have known this information before their attacks. Depends on whether they were going for maximum casualties or maximum disruption. I have one further concern, more a matter of article structure. The text that has now been restored says something like "greater number of casualties" on the Piccadilly Line train, but this has yet been mentioned in the article! The number of casualties at the different locations is not mentioned until a few sections later. Maybe this "differing effects of the bombs" could be moved to a different section. Which would hopefully make it less visible as well... Carcharoth 11:27, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Possibly it should be at the end of the Casualties section. The information could probably be shortened for the sake of conciseness. - Wgsimon 11:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Agreed. It could be included, but should not be removed on the basis it's 'too informative' for copycats to reproduce. It's common knowledge, and was discussed many a time BEFORE the attacks even took place. Adidas 12:54, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Such information should be included if, One it is mentioned in the offical investigation report, Two that because of these attacks new stations are designed to miniamize blast effects (similar to the standoff distance -distance between a building and the street- because of the Oklahoma City bombing)--Mitrebox 19:41, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * By "if mentioned in the official investigation report" do you think the text under discussion should be removed for now? Carcharoth 22:07, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The text in my opinion is non-sensative and can stay. Sensative comments useuly deal with litte known information. It is fairly certin that the attackers canvased the area for several days prior to the attacks. Though they may have noted the tunnel sizes they were probally much more interested in attacking lines based on other factors.--Mitrebox 00:06, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Images gallery - misleading map and image
The article currently includes a link to an images gallery. This is currently being considered for removal to the Wikimedia Commons area). If people click through to the image gallery, it is not very impressive at the moment, but some of the images are just confusing and misleading.

One of the images was an attempt at a map using a satellite image (but the "free use" status is in dispute). That satellite map has other problems, such as labelling the bus attack with a car, and labelling stations arbitrarily, and labelling Aldgate East instead of Aldgate, and mispelling Edgware Road.

Both that image and this one are misleading. The map is misleading as stated above, and the image is confusing because it talks about the Northern Line. What should be done about this? Carcharoth 12:02, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * As to the description, go into Commons and change it to Piccadilly line. That photo and its provenance is now well-known, and given the circumstances on Thursday it's not surprising that there was confusion. -- Arwel 12:22, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The original (moblog) upload page still says northern line, and no-one queried it there. The picture is slightly strange because it doesn't look like they are in one of the deep line tunnels (such as the Piccadilly Line) where there is not a lot of room outside the trains, so I'm not really sure what is going on with that picture, despite it being used all over the world by many media... Can you point me towards a website that gives a clear provenance and location for the picture. I don't want to change it without being sure. Carcharoth 20:57, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

people calm, my eye
Today sunday at 1pm they conducted a controlled explosion at the twickemham stadium... I can see it well from my balcony... Lots of neighbors started filming and getting really nervous because we didn't know it was planned... the whole south stand fell off and there was quite a bit of white smoke. 999 must have been well busy. Now this contradict the 'stiff upper lip' we read constantly about in the media... people ARE on the edge, maybe they just don't like to talk about it. Adidas 12:38, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm under the impression this is planned demolition of part of the Stadium to make way for new construction. I read your post to indicate a controlled explosion *of a suspected exposive device* occured. demolition news in Richmond and Twickenham Times Toby Douglass 12:49, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

 * yes, yes, it's controlled, meaning, planned by the fire dept. in order to make way for new construction. I called 999 immediately when it occured to check. Balcony owners in richmond were very relieved indeed. Still, quite a shock to see a big structure like that going down on quiet sunday afternoon. Adidas 13:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I heard that bang. I'm just down the road from Twickenham stadium. Sounded like a pile of scrap being loaded into a skip. Which is what I assumed it was. Didn't stop someone else running into the room and saying "was that a bomb?" Though to be honest, I admit that the thought did briefly cross my mind as well. Carcharoth 19:18, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Similar thoughts will proabally be common in the next few weeks. Here in the states I still impulsively check the news whenever the emergency sirens (usually only used for tornado alerts) are tested on sunny days--Mitrebox 19:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

translated statement
I sort of liked the linking to peace, mercy etc. from the formulae of the translated statement, as a sort of pacifist comment driving home the hypocrisy. Now, the links are just to Islamic terminology, of course closer to the intended, unthinking use of the formulae. Hyperlinks from quoted text are always critical, of course, since the constitute some sort of implicit comment, and it may be better to remove the links altogether, and place the important ones in a short commentary after the translation. The statement of course is dubitable anyway, and may have been uploaded by a random teenager. dab (ᛏ) 16:57, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree -- it seems to me that linking to definitions of 'peace' and 'mercy' is tantamount to saying "why don't you look up peace, you arsehole?" which isn't really the tone we're after in an encyclopaedia. It also pushes the opinion that the attacks are dispicable and their justification hypocritical, which whilst being a widely adopted point of view, and one to which I subscribe, is still just a point of view. Chris Smowton 17:40, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The present wikilinks (99 names of god, peace be on him, etc.) are more informative and contextual. It's an improvement. --Dhartung | Talk 20:47, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Children
Does anybody know how many children were maimed/killed in these attacks?

 * I heard something about one child being slightly injured. Vashti 19:54, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Most children were in school at the time. (Possibly something worthy of inclusion since some had to stay in school overnight.) Sonic Mew 19:57, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

 * Assuming that my information is correct, I agree that mention of children being kept in school due to the transport lockdown is notable, but I'm concerned that putting in information such as "one child was slightly injured" may belittle the fact that many adults are severely maimed or very dead. Vashti 20:00, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * How can one be slightly dead? (Sorry, bit of black humour.) Anyway, I too heard about that child, but there are also some children missing (possibly dead). At this time of year, some older schoolchildren were on work experience placements after exams, so would have been travelling in London. If we want to include anything about this, we need to find a source first. Carcharoth 20:28, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Job title of Sir Ian Blair
OK, this is not the most important thing in the article, but it is annoying me that everywhere Sir Ian Blair is mentioned, the job title is described differently. Which of these is correct? "Metropolitan Police Service Commissioner Sir Ian Blair"; "Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair"; "Police Commissioner Blair"; "London Metropolitan Police Chief, Sir Ian Blair"? Oh, and it is best not to call him just "Blair", as people might confuse him with British Prime Minister Tony Blair. I'm fixing the wiki links that had "Metropolitan Police" pointing at a general definition, rather than at "Metropolitan Police Service", but I'm not sure what is best for Sir Ian Blair's job title. Carcharoth 18:59, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * According to the Met's website, his full title is the rather unwieldy "Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis", which they later abbreviate to "Metropolitan Police Commissioner". Call him that first and then "Sir Ian Blair" thereafter, as their article does? Vashti 19:53, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I've gone with your suggestion, but used it throughout. Article is too long for people to remember who this Sir Ian Blair is further down the article. I've also changed the wiki links to point at his job title, but this could be changed back to pointing at the Metropolitan Police, though I think wiki-linking from within a phrase is bad, which is why I changed it. Possibly the later wiki links to "Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis" could be lost, as the double wiki-link (to both Ian Blair and his job title) is only needed the first time, and later examples only need one wiki link. Not sure though. Carcharoth 20:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Table of Contents
I like how it's placed to the right. How did you do it? Pacific Coast Highway 20:20, July 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * That's easy. Use the template moniker . --Dhartung | Talk 20:44, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Bus direction
Many news reports and this WIKI page state that the Number 30 bus was travelling from Hackney to Marble Arch.

However...

1) Photos of the bus indicate that the destination sign at the front was set to Hackney.

2) This woman claims to have been travelling from West to East on the bus...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4669793.stm

3) A bus from the East, that had diverted to avoid Kings Cross would surely be returning to Euston Road to the West of Kings Cross. Not heading South away from Euston Road on Upper Woburn Place.

 * The No. 30 - Hackney to Marble Arch is what the BBC is still reporting, I think it's best to stick with it... at least until TfL says otherwise. -- Joolz 00:53, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * CNN are reporting it was travelling - from Marble Arch to Hackney Wick

 * http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/09/london.busdriver/--Pound 08:41, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Many reports also say that the bus driver was LOST (because of the diversion). He had stopped to ask directions from a pair of traffic wardens. This story is widely available in the newspapers, and would explain many discrepancies. Carcharoth

 * To a certain extent but whether or not the driver was lost - there is the story of the woman above travelling from West to East on the bus, and the destination sign. And I've just found this Press Release from Stagecoach, the company operating the bus service, in which they describe the route as "Marble Arch to Hackney Wick"...

 * http://www.stagecoachgroup.com/sgc/mediainfo/releases/2005/2005-07-08/

 * It is clearly stated "He was driving the number 30 bus on a route from Marble Arch to Hackney Wick when the incident happened around 9.50 a.m. near Russell Square in Central London yesterday."

 * Since this is from the company that operated the bus service it must be pretty authoritative.

 * --Pound 10:17, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Also, the bit about "planned diversion" needs to be changed. It was not a planned diversion as seen by the bus driver being lost, and his comment "My bus had been diverted because there were thousands of people coming out of the Tube. There were many people who were trying to get on the bus at once." Also, the bus driver is an important witness (he almost certainly saw the bomber get on the bus). Carcharoth

 * On the basis of the Stagecoach press release, the CNN report, the BBC report on the woman travelling West-East and the bus direction indicator - I have changed the direction in the article (Marble Arch to Hackney Wick). As to the nature of the diversion - perhaps it should be changed to simply "diversion from its normal route" rather than "planned diversion from its normal route" until more definitive information is available.--Pound 11:09, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * er ... actually, I'd already made that edit but didn't notice someone else reverse it within a larger edit. --Vamp:Willow 11:52, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

terrorist attacks list/external sources
It looks like people keep editing the section at bottom of page ("see also") devoted to previous terrorist attacks, to include every (un-) imaginable historical attack there. Sort of detracts from the page's main function.

Also, links to other news sources, streaming links etc. ("external links") keep disappearing. Quite annoying.

Removed visor consultants claim
"A little known story has appeared on BBC5, about a group called Visor consultants coincidentally conducting an exercise the very day of the bombings: 'On a BBC Radio 5 interview that aired on the evening of the 7th, the host interviewed Peter Power, Managing Director of Visor Consultants, which bills itself as a 'crisis management' advice company, better known to you and I as a PR firm.

Peter Power was a former Scotland Yard official, working at one time with the Anti Terrorist Branch.

Power told the host that at the exact same time that the London bombings were taking place, his company was running a 1,000 person strong exercise which drilled the London Underground being bombed at the exact same locations, at the exact same times, as happened in real life.

The transcript is as follows.

POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now.

HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?

POWER: Precisely, and it was about half past nine this morning, we planned this for a company and for obvious reasons I don't want to reveal their name but they're listening and they'll know it. And we had a room full of crisis managers for the first time they'd met and so within five minutes we made a pretty rapid decision that this is the real one and so we went through the correct drills of activating crisis management procedures to jump from slow time to quick time thinking and so on.

Click here for a clip of this dialogue. Click here for a longer clip where the comments can be heard in their full context. [www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2005/090705bombingexercises.htm]]"

Please find a more established source than "prisonplanet.com" lots of issues  | leave me a message 04:11, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The interview does appear to have been taken place but this was a consultant claiming to have predicted the nature of the bomb attacks - after they had already taken place. Consequently, it's hard to verify his claim that their hypothetical scenario was indentical to what actually happened. Also this was not a "1,000 person strong exercise" - it was a few people in a room talking about what advice to give a company with 1,000 employees.--Pound 08:40, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * It's completely ridiculous, of course, but this is already the basis of conspiracy-mongers everywhere. It's inevitable that it will remain in the article. I've tried to craft an NPOV text, correcting errors along the way (for instance, a 1000-person company isntead of a 1000-person strong exercise). Bogus facts that we'll need to watch for include claims that the exercise in any way took place within the Underground or involved fake bomb packages. I'm wondering if Visor Consultants will ever issue a statement (this would have to reach mainstream media, not Prison frickin' Planet, before that would happen). --Dhartung | Talk 16:32, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes - it needs to remain clear that this was someone after the attacks claiming that he'd been sitting a room with colleagues that morning talking about what to do if such an attack took place. Not an "exercise" taking place on the underground. And the claim that the hypothetical scenario being discussed matched the real one is unverifiable and may be self-promotion on the part of Visor Consultants.--Pound 16:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Someone should spend time changing the text of that part of the article, right now it sounds like fearmongering. --Quadraxis

 * It is fearmongering. This sounds colossally stupid if you've been involved in anything like these disaster recovery scenarios -- it's just managers sitting around a table, and an underling like me is there because he's not the most senior person, and you've got work to do, and it goes on for hours while human resources runs down its family contact procedure, and you just want to present your reboot-the-servers cheat sheet and book out of there. ;-) There are probably a dozen companies in central London holding similar meetings every month. (OT: just like the claims of "training exercises" on 9/11. Wow. That's unusual. What's the military doing when not being attacked by Russia? I hope to hell they're training.)
 * I modified the text somewhat, although the lack of coverage by the mainstream media means there's no authority to counter the claims (which of course they see as proof). --Dhartung | Talk 22:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * "though others with experience in crisis management see it as little more than a paper exercise that was eerily prescient." is lacking a reference. Who sees it as this? --84.48.93.10 08:41, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Maybe anybody who's sane? --Dhartung | Talk 16:53, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

And then, the whole paragraph suddenly disappeared without notice. I've put it back, as it was.--Knut Arne Vedaa 11:12, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

 * I heard this interview live. The guy did not come across well, and it sounded like he was doing a bit of self promotion. I rather suspect the interviewer got the same impression, because immediately after the transcripted part of the conversation, he gave him a hard time over jargon ('slow time thinking' and 'quick time thinking') then cut him off abruptly. I certainly don't think this is encyclopedic, or at least not without third party corroboration of the exercise. -- Chris j wood 14:10, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Self-promotion is right; I wanted to put that in but couldn't think how. He was basically saying "look how good my firm is at predicting these things!" I agree it isn't encyclopedic, and now that the arrests have begun it's possible this type of speculation really will dry up (hasn't stopped the 9/11 gaming, though). I'd rather keep it out entirely than have to find nonexistent counterclaims. --Dhartung | Talk 16:53, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I've (new user) just checked and it's been removed again. i'm going to put it back on at some point along with links to the ITV interview and the BBCV interview with Peter Powers, the executive from Viso consultans. This is a very important piece of relevant information, and its factual basis is unquestionable. Whoever is repeatedly removing it is either an idiot or has ulterior motices.

Police Shot Suicide Bomers
There's an article in a NZ newspaper http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10334992

Does this have any merit?
 * It's been debunked a long time ago. No merit whatsoever Adidas 09:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I heard this from multiple (first hand) sources on the day. Do you have any links for the debunking?

 * Actually I see no evidence that the story was debunked; only that it is "unconfirmed." Do we have a definitive statement about it? --csloat 11:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

 * It was asked by a reporter during the press conference where there was a rep. from each of police, BTP, transport for london, fire, medical.... on the day. The response from the police rep. was something along the line of "I'm not aware of any police sniper shooting dead anybody." -- KTC 16:06, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

What a pity it's not true. Adam 09:37, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Alfie's Moblog
Is there a reason why we're linking Alfie's Moblog? This looks like just another copy of one picture available from a variety of other news sources. Chris Smowton 10:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually I know alfie, and he's no linkspammer, unlike a few people who keep on readding their irrelevant blog to the list right after I deleted them. The link can stay - he was the first one to post that picture of the guy stuck in the underground (apparently it's a friend of his). However, due to the limited ammount of unrelated content, it could be wise to remove that link eventually. Adidas 12:49, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

 * If you know alfie and he knows Adam Stacy (the guy who took the picture) would you be able to try and clear up some minor bits of confusion? The confusion is that he said the picture is of passengers on a Northern Line train (and the yellow poles in the background seem to confirm this). If this is indeed a different train to the one that was bombed on the Piccadilly Line, then that needs to be made clear. Some people are assuming it is the Piccadilly Line train. Can you get definite confirmation that he was on a Northern Line train?

 * And more generally, the stories from OTHER trains are being lost in the coverage of the main stories. Most trains were brought into stations and evacuated, but some were stuck for some time after the bombings. There is possibly this story about a Northern Line train, and there are definitely stories about a train next to the Liverpool Street/Aldgate train (probably a Metropolitan Line train heading the other way), and a train (Circle or District Line) next to the Edgware Road train (the story about the blast causing debris to hit another train).

 * These other trains (that were next to or near the bombed trains) are clearly seen if you go the Transport for London News Centre picture gallery, where there are sequences of images from their Trackernet system showing the movements of these trains just before the bombings.

 * While it is not the main part of the story, this sort of material would add interesting angles to the story. Carcharoth

www.werenotafraid.com
Can anyone get to this site and see more than the half dozen pictures that originally load? I read an article about it on CNN.com here and tried to access the page. I can get to the homepage but all the links just return the same images. I thought it may be some bug with Safari so I tried Mozilla and my girlfriend's Windows box with IE and I get the same results. So is it just me or what? Any clues? Thought it may make an interesting addition to the article but maybe not... Dismas 20:42, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The CMS seems to be malfunctioning right now. This can wait. --Dhartung | Talk 23:55, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * So I looked up CMS in the wiki and didn't see anything that would help explain what you said. So... huh? Dismas 00:06, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * CMS = content management system = blog software = WordPress in this case. It's still borked, so no point linking. --Dhartung | Talk 07:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I see. Thanks.  Dismas 10:27, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * werenotafraid has become a puerile attempt at replicating b3ta.com, probably not what the domain owner originally thought of. Regardless, it's now filled with childish images of pets, jokes and common object photoshoped to feature the 'i'm not afraid' message. It also contains racist content such as images of roasted chicken with the label 'go home motherf%%%ers.' IMHO it should be removed from the links section as it now bears little relevance to the tragic attacks. Adidas 13:09, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Disagree. The site's quality may have declined as it became more popular, but its popularity is what makes it relevant. We're not arbiters of site quality at Wikipedia. The popularity comes from numerous mentions in major media which has spread it worldwide. --Dhartung | Talk 16:42, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Scientology
User:AnneFrankly has added some Scientology-related material.

Is it acceptable, or should we pitch it? Mr. Billion 02:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I guess User:203.25.140.98 has already voted to pitch it. I'll remove the "Scientology Volunteer Ministers" bit too, then.  Dunno why I bothered asking though, really.  Mr. Billion 03:03, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Timing of trains
In the "Attacks on the Underground" section, is the speculation about a lone bomber justified? It starts out as speculation, and then phrases like "the bomber", and "the person who planted the other bombs" start to be used, which sound less speculative and start to assume that the speculation is correct, which doesn't seem justified yet.

The wording "roughly nine minutes east by tube from Kings Cross" and "roughly eight minutes west by tube from Kings Cross" is also a bit strange. London Underground have a system called TrackerNet that allows them to tell PRECISELY when the Circle Line trains arrived at and left Kings Cross (only the Circle Line trains - TrackerNet had not yet been installed on the Piccadilly Line at the time of the bombing). So IF London Underground release the information, there is no need for "roughly"; it can be said that the trains left Kings Cross "x" minutes ago. I thought one of the original press releases from London Underground said both Circle Line trains left Kings Cross 8 minutes before the bombings, but that seems to have disappeared now. Can anyone find another source?

Also, is there a source for this: "The parallel track of the Hammersmith and City Line from Liverpool Street to Aldgate East was also damaged."? Carcharoth 08:08, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

identified Casualties
As of 12:20 BST on the 12th July, on the main article, these two people are put as the identified casualties:

Susan Levy, 53, of Newgate Street Village (near Cuffley, Hertfordshire), on the Picadilly line train. Gladys Wundowa, 51, of Chadwell Heath, on the bus, a cleaner at University College London.

However, yesterday early evening, Gladys Wundowa was removed from all of BBC News newsstories as well as Sky News. Why is that? Maybe they misidentified her?

We can now also add at least two more names, they are identified on Sky News. - Smoothy 12:20, 12 July 2005 (BST)

 * Yes, Gladys Wundowa has disappeared from news coverage, so presumably there was a mistake. She shouldn't be on the list (or at least there should be a note by her name) until more is known. --Dtcdthingy 13:19, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

 * There are further names.  I have updated the header paragraph but someone will need to check through carefully to make sure we are counting correctly.  In particular, we need to watch locations and balance figures in the table lower down the article. 195.157.197.108 16:13, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Bus direction 2
Please can people STOP changing the bus direction to say Hackney Wick to Marble Arch. There are many sources that confirm that the bus was travelling from Marble Arch to Hackney Wick. See the discussion further up this talk page AND the linked reference in the article RIGHT NEXT to the text people keep changing. An article in the Evening Standard (12/07/2005) goes into detail about this, saying that this number 30 bus left Hackney Wick that morning and had turned around at Marble Arch and was heading BACK to Hackney Wick. Please do not change the bus direction details again. Thank-you. Carcharoth

References please
Can we please have a reference for the police conference about the investigations into four men seen on CCTV at Kings Cross ("Investigation" section). If this is properly referenced, then the earlier speculation about a single bomber (based on tube geography) in the "Bombings" section can be removed. Carcharoth

Similar incidents
The list of "Similar incidents" is growing; it's in danger of becoming a category in it own right, I suggest it is drastically trimmed (perhaps with a link to a suitable umbrella article or category). Andy Mabbett 17:10, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Page size
This page is 51 kilobytes long, we're warned. Perhaps we should hive off the investigation and or reaction sections, leaving this page to describe the bombings themselves. Andy Mabbett 17:12, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * My thinking is that the relatively static reaction stuff can be put into the Response to the 2005 London bombings article. There's getting to be some duplication, anyway. --Dhartung | Talk 06:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

How to include these references?
Under "Bombings" section I've added detail about the other trains at Edgware Road at the time of the bombings. This is mainly based on the images available here (TrackerNet images from London Transport):

These additions are supported by the BBC reference I gave in the main article (the tube driver saying he was lucky to be alive): "There was a train at the platform in front of me, coming the other way. As the driver's cab was just passing mine, I saw a bright yellow light on the train on the other side." , plus this reference to the Hammersmith and City Line train at Edgware Road at the time of the bombing: "I was on the eastbound Hammersmith and City train that had just stopped at Edgware Road station. We heard a loud bang, which shook our train."

I've included the BBC link and the link to the Transport for London news centre image gallery, where people can see the sequences showing the movements of the trains, but can't think of an easy way to reference the H+C line comment. Any way to do this? Carcharoth 21:37, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Casualty ages
I'm not sure enough of the facts to edit the page, but some web pages (eg http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/4677603.stm ) give different ages for some casualties. -- SGBailey 08:53, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Jamie Gordon, 30 - we have 31
 * Philip Stuart Russell, 28 - we have 29

 * Some people were listed twice here with different ages and spellings of names. Should take care to check multiple sources for this kind of info and avoid duplicates too. MRSC 09:07, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Without birthdates, there will be a lot of "off by one" errors. --Dhartung | Talk 09:16, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Separate casualty page
Why did someone just remove the casualty section and direct the reader instead to Casualties of the 7 July 2005 London bombings, a less-than-useful, up-for-deletion page with limited information (a section on foreign nationals but none indentifying others who died or their ages or their cities, all of which had been in the main article). I'll assume good faith and hope that this is being sorted out as I type. But otherwise... something needs to be done to remedy this. Moncrief 10:36, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Becasue this page is too long. The removed material is now on the latter page. Andy Mabbett 10:42, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Now that all the information has been moved there, I can rest easy. Thanks. Moncrief 10:54, July 13, 2005 (UTC)


text:
Achebe (surname)

Achebe is a Nigerian surname of Igbo origin. Notable people with the surname include:

 * Alfred Achebe (born 1941), 21st Obi of Onitsha
 * Chinedu Achebe (born 1977), former American football player
 * Chinua Achebe (1930–2013), Nigerian novelist, poet and critic
 * Nancy Achebe, Nigerian librarian and information scientist
 * Nwando Achebe (born 1970), Nigerian academic, feminist scholar, and historian

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Achebe (surname)


text:
Nkrumah

Nkrumah is a surname. Notable people with the surname include:

 * Kwame Nkrumah (1909–1972), the first Prime Minister and then first President of Ghana
 * Fathia Nkrumah (1932–2007), wife of Kwame Nkrumah and First Lady of Ghana
 * Gamal Nkrumah (born 1959), Ghanaian journalist.
 * Samia Nkrumah (born 1960), Ghanaian journalist and politician
 * Kwame Nkrumah-Acheampong (born 1979), Ghanaian skier
 * Kojo Oppong Nkrumah (born 1982), a Ghanaian journalist, politician and lawyer

title: Nkrumah


text:
Ruth Parasol

Ruth Monicka Parasol (born February 27, 1967) is an American businesswoman and lawyer who founded PartyGaming in 1997. The company floated on the London Stock Exchange in 2005 for US$8.46 billion. It was then a record valuation and the largest online poker room.

The company grew to generate more than $500 million in annual profits by 2005 and then floated its IPO on the London Stock Exchange at a value of £4.64 billion ($8.46 billion), and in September of that year was admitted to the FTSE 100 list of companies - a first for a female founded and spearheaded company. By the end of 2015, Parasol sold her final shares.

In 2010, The Economist ranked her 15th of the world's wealthiest self-made women.

According to the Sunday Times Rich List in 2020, Parasol has an estimated net worth of £780 million.

Personal life
Parasol was born in 1967 in San Francisco, California. She is the eldest daughter of Guna Parasol, who is Swedish, and Richard Parasol, a Jewish-Polish Holocaust survivor who served in the Israel Defense Forces. Richard eventually emigrated to study mechanical engineering at California Polytechnic State University. Richard worked as an engineer for several years and then went on to become a real estate developer.

Parasol grew up in Mill Valley, California, graduated from Marin Academy in 1984, and received a B.A. in Business from the University of San Francisco in 1988.

After earning her juris doctor from Western State College of Law at Argosy University in 1992, Parasol worked for her father's real estate management business. Parasol also amassed a small fortune in the business of online pornography and the operation of phone sex lines.

In 2003, Parasol married Russ DeLeon. They moved with their children to Gibraltar in 2004. They separated in 2010, and were decreed divorced in early 2014. Parasol continues to reside primarily in Gibraltar and to maintain homes in Israel, London, and Spain.

Involvement in the gaming industry
Parasol launched Starluck Casino Online in the Caribbean in 1997. In 1998, she made software engineer Anurag Dikshit a partner in her business, which later became known as PartyGaming Plc. In turn, Dikshit made Parasol a partner in his IT services business based in India. Vikrant Bhargava and Russ DeLeon joined as principals of Party Gaming in 2000 and 2001 respectively. Parasol and her ex-husband served as consultants to PartyGaming Plc until December 2006, and they sold their remaining shares in 2015.

After the launch of PartyPoker.com in 2001, PartyGaming Plc grew to generate more than $500 million in annual profits by 2005. In June 2005, PartyGaming Plc floated its IPO on the London Stock Exchange at a value of £4.64 billion ($8.46 billion), and in September of that year was admitted to the FTSE 100 list of companies. In October 2006, PartyGaming publicly withdrew from the U.S. market after the passage of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006, a piece of anti-gambling legislation approved by the United States Congress as part of the SAFE Port Act. As a result, the company’s share price dropped 60% and the company subsequently withdrew from the FTSE 100 Index.

In 2008, Anurag Dikshit pleaded guilty to violation of the Federal Wire Act, agreed to cooperate with prosecutors, and personally paid $300 million to the United States Department of Justice as part of his plea. In 2009, PartyGaming entered a non-prosecution agreement with the Justice Department and paid a fine of $105 million. In 2011, the Justice Department reversed its earlier position, determining that the Federal Wire Act does not apply to online poker and casino games, only to sports betting.

Parasol Foundation Trust
Parasol is the Principal Benefactress and Trustee Director, a Gibraltar-based independent philanthropic organization that was founded 2004. As of 2020, the Trust has given over GBP £30 million in donations. The Parasol Trust's grant making focuses on non-profit organizations in the areas of health, the environment and cultural heritage. The Parasol Trust works with organizations such as The Red Cross, The University of Cambridge, Tel Aviv University, Technion University, The Victoria & Albert Museum, The Prince’s Trust, the British Council and MacMillan Cancer Support. The trust also has a special interest in using new technologies and Internet solutions to aid charitable programs.

title: Ruth Parasol


text:
Talk:History of Saudi Arabia

Princesses
I learned that Saudi Arabia was founded by someone forcibly conquering smaller political entities one-by-one. As he went along, he would conquer a place and marry the ruling family's princess. He could have 4 wives at a time, then get rid of one to make room for the next one until the entire kingdom was unified. Anyone know if this is true? --Jon in California 23 June 2007

 * Well that's an over-simplified account, but it's essentially true, at least in Nejd and the eastern province. Slacker 13:49, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
Some aspects of this place are POV. I suggest someone takes a look at it. I have no time right now. "I'm modifying the multiple references to the 'Iraqi war machine' to Iraqi military."

"Contrary to popular belief expenditure in defence doesn't boost long-term GDP growth (The Broken Window Fallacy)."

This is clearly not an NPOV statement, even replacing "parable" with "fallacy"

 * Although I concur, I think this article needs to be completely revamped. If you find something to fix, fix it. - Eagleamn 19:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

What was the UK's role w.r.t. what is now Saudi Arabia?
"By the Treaty of Jedda, signed on May 20, 1927, the United Kingdom recognized the independence of Abdul Aziz's realm (then known as the Kingdom of Hijaz and Nejd)."

Independence from what, exactly?

I can't find anything else in this article which describes the UK's former influence (or otherwise?) over what is now Saudi Arabia. 217.155.20.163 01:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree; A slight bit more info can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Saud but it would provide context for the treaty with the brits Mulp 05:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Also see Captain_William_Shakespear and Battle_of_Jarrab, but yes I agree, could use a bit more info. The British influence perhaps even merits its own article as it was extensive and complex. Mrhawley 13:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Missing History Period
I think there is a long period missing here the first or second states of Al-Saud.

I agree. What happened between the first and second, and the second and third, Saudi reigns? KHarbaugh 19:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

 * read more in First Saudi State, and Second Saudi State articles , between the first and second states , Ottomans have restored control of Hejaz while other areas been controled by local Tribes , between second and present states , Rashidis have taken control of most Arabia while Hejaz taken by Sharifs in battles with Ottomans while Arab Revolt. Ammar 20:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

World Wars?
What happened during the Wars? What about the KSA's relationship with FDR? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Labodeng (talk • contribs) 15:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Changing borders of Saudi arabia
Copied from Talk:Geography of Saudi Arabia:

The article does not really cover the changes that took place in the course of 20th century. I think some historical maps can be found on the internet: for example, a German 'dead-tree' lexicon of 1971 shows rather different borders with (South-)Yemen and with Qatar/UAE (UAE still a neighbour of Qatar at that time). See also. -- Miacek (t) 12:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, that map also shows the UAE sharing a border with Qatar, i.e. it's obsolete. -- Miacek (t) 11:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC

Hasan al Basari was not the founder of sufism. Hasan al Basari was a reputable orthodox Sunnah Scholar upon the way of the first Muslims. (I can't find the wiggly lines to sign with)

International recognition
My primary question is, did the Great Powers recognise the First Saudi State, the Second Saudi State and the Emirate of Al Rashid? This should be clearly identified with a source added to this page as well as to the individual pages for those former states. The Emirate of Al Rashid should have its own page on Wikipedia and as of today it does not; there is only a page about the House of Al Rashid as there is one for the House of Saudi. Vadac (talk) 23:36, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Duplication of History of the Arabian Peninsula
I think the "Early history", "The Rise of Islam", and "The Middle Ages" sections can be moved/merged to History of the Arabian Peninsula, we don't need to turn this article into a duplicate History of Arabia. All this article needs a a hatnote pointing readers to "History the Arabian Peninsula" for pre-Ottoman history, Saudi Arabia is basically Arabia minus the southern cost anyway. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:35, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Disagree for these reasons:
 * Almost all country history articles go back to the period prior to the formation of the state. Why would Saudi Arabia be any different?
 * This article picks out the part of the history that is relevant to Saudi territory only. "Arabia" and "Saudi Arabia" are different. "the South coast" actually covers quite a bit of history that's not relevant to Saudi territory. You have to remember that "the south coast" i.e Oman and the gulf states was a populous area with a relatively eventful history so it wouldn't be peripheral to Saudi history in the period, in fact it would probably be the dominant part of the history.
 * History the Arabian Peninsula doesn't exist so what's the duplcaton? DeCausa (talk) 09:45, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That was a typo, it was supposed to be "History of the Arabian Peninsula". Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 09:59, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but that's not an article that's a redirect to Arabian Peninsula. There's still no "History of the Arabian Peninsula" article. DeCausa (talk) 10:11, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, quite a bit of material in History of Oman and some in History of Qatar and History of United Arab Emirates (History of Kuwait?) would have to be similarly carved out. Then all of this material would be obscured for those readers that wanted to trace the early history of one of these countries - the putative "History of the Arabian Peninsula" article would have to repetitively point out which modern countries are being discussed for those readers that wanted to know what was the early history of Oman, Saudi etc. DeCausa (talk) 10:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

 * You've convinced me, SA history would seem to be sufficiently distent to warrant a separate enough topic to warrant some duplication, because of the shear importance of those excluded regions. Still allot of the content here should probably be copied to History of the Arabian Peninsula. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk • contribs) 01:37, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Corruption
Why is there no mention of the massive corruption of the Saud family and the continued brutality of their regime? Neutron230 (talk) 13:05, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

March 2022 edit dispute
, I don't really mind that you deleted my short inclusion of new data into the "History of Saudi Arabia (Spread of Islam section)". I won't undo it.

But I was just wondering who considers what is relevant or what "edits do not improve the article". To me this line in the same subsection -> "Nevertheless, Mecca and Medina remained the spiritually most important places in the Muslim world. The Quran requires every able-bodied Muslim who can afford it, as one of the five pillars of Islam, to make a pilgrimage, or Hajj, to Mecca during the Islamic month of Dhu al-Hijjah, at least once in his or her lifetime." seems like an edit that does not improve the article. Can I then remove it?

I find all of this to be very subjective, what is to one person "improving upon an article" is not to the other. Makes me wonder who has exclusive rights to what is and what should not be included into an article.

Isn't adding into an article good? As long as its not too long and cited well? It makes me feel like some editors are not open to new information eventhough its cited well and is relevant (well atleast I feel its relevant but others don't). Danial Bass (talk) 16:38, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
 * , you are right, there is a degree of subjectivity inherent to every Wikipedia article. After all, it isn't a bulleted list of points with references, there is some amount of prose inserted into each page, for the sake of legibility. You can remove whatever you deem unnecessary or inappropriate, but you may get challenged on that by other editors; this is simply how Wikipedia works. There is no such thing as "exclusive rights" on this platform, that's just a silly conjecture.
 * Adding content to an article isn't intrinsically good, no. Adding useful content is definitely good, but there is the rub of the issue: what does the community consider to be useful content, as opposed to unnecessary filler, or perhaps even sub-par material? What caught my eye about your edit was that it included a typo, which can sometimes be a red flag, because it can indicate sloppy editing, which is itself a telltale sign of disruptive editing. I'm not accusing you of any of that, by the way, just explaining my reasoning process. The reference you provided isn't searchable, so I can't verify that the content you added is accurate. Tell me, why do you deem the short addition you made to be an improvement to the article? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 16:56, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
 * First of all as you mentioned I was "spamming", I apologise for "spamming" i wanted to re-edit my message and I'm still unsure how to re-edit it as I'm new on this. I didn't notice it caused multiple messages to you, so I'm sorry for that. Secondly, I wouldn't call this a "dispute", I'm not here to argue with you nor do I want to challenge your revert (tbh I'm not very involved in this and you can do as you like), the reason why I asked in your talk page is because I wanted to know how these sort of things (the question I asked) work since you said you can provide a helping hand in you page.
 * Also I didn't say there was "exclusive rights" here (I know there isn't), just speaking symbolically. Also, I said adding into an article is good if its cited well and if its relevant. The short addition is an improvement to me because it is one small part of the history of Saudi Arabia. Again, I don't dispute if you don't agree with me and I'm fine to leave it as such, this really isn't a dispute. Its searchable here -> Daily Life in the Medieval Islamic World : James E. Lindsay : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive. But forget about it, I don't really mind Danial Bass (talk) 17:10, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
 * sorry, what was the typo? I looked back and couldn't find it Danial Bass (talk) 17:16, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
 * , it appears that you have been editing Wikipedia since 2015. Seven years is not exactly "being new to this", is it?
 * Hopefully my explanation clarified some of the areas you were curious about. Let me know if you would like to discuss it further.
 * As for the typo, here it is: "Islamic historical sources explains" Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 17:25, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
 * No I am new to this. I edited 2 pages in 2015 and 2016, very minor edits. I didn't edit anything again until 2020-2021 where I did only minor edits and only a handful of articles. And when I say "new" I meant replying to a user's talk page. So I definitely am new to that. No further discussions is needed and yes you did clarify things Danial Bass (talk) 17:30, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

British Revolt
The timeline gives the impression, the Ottomans were colonizing. When in fact the British ledca revolt for cessation against the khilafa. This tyoe of artficisl neo-nationalistic aka semi-apartheid ideology is the ruling ideology. As msny in Saudi were granted citizenship in the 20's to 40's from various geographical areas. 2001:8F8:1E35:3291:766F:10CE:4DC6:CDC9 (talk) 02:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you please provide references to support the claims you are making? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 10:17, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:History of Saudi Arabia


text:
User:Zaulus

AndyL's User Talk Page

Articles I've started or made significant contributions to:

title: User:Zaulus


text:
Kelefa

Kelefa (Κελεφά) is a castle and village in Mani, Laconia, Greece. It is part of the municipal unit of Oitylo.

History
The castle of Kelefa is located about half-way between the current village of Kelefa and the Bay of Oitylo. It was built in 1679 by the Ottomans, in order to contain the Inner Mani region. Some years later, in 1685, the Maniots besieged the castle. They sent messengers to Venice so the Doge could send a fleet to help them capture the castle. The Venetians were currently at war with the Ottomans so they agreed and sent a fleet under Francesco Morosini. As soon the fleets bearing the symbol of St Mark the Ottoman garrison surrendered. A year later the Ottomans returned with a strong force and laid siege to the castle but were driven back. Along with the rest of the Peloponnese, the castle remained in Venetian hands for about 30 years, but in 1715 the Ottomans recaptured the Peloponnese. Around 1780 the Ottomans abandoned the castle, which became derelict.

Now Kelefa is a small village.

title: Kelefa


text: User talk:213.2.197.213

title: User talk:213.2.197.213


text: Category:Algeria geography stubs

title: Category:Algeria geography stubs


text: Category:Egypt geography stubs

title: Category:Egypt geography stubs


text:
KGB-FM

KGB-FM (101.5 MHz) is a commercial radio station licensed to San Diego, California. It is owned and operated by iHeartMedia and broadcasts in a classic rock music format. KGB-FM's studios are located in San Diego's Kearny Mesa neighborhood on the northeast side, and the transmitter is located in East San Diego east of Balboa Park.

The station has broadcast its content using the HD Radio digital transmission format since 2005.

History
The 101.5 MHz frequency originally signed on the air in 1950 as KSON-FM, owned by Fred Rabel. It is the second-oldest FM station in San Diego; the former KFSD-FM at 94.1 FM (now KMYI) debuted in 1948. Rabel later sold the signal to Brown Broadcasting in 1958. KSON-FM was moved off the KSON (AM) tower on the corner of Highway 15 and Interstate 5 to the new site of sister station KGB (1360 AM, now KLSD) at 52nd Street and Kalmia. KSON-FM's call letters were changed to KGB-FM. In 1964, Brown Broadcasting hired Bill Drake to consult for the new KGB, and the format he installed there later became known as "Boss Radio". In 1968, KGB and KGB-FM were separated, and the latter became KBKB, a "beautiful music" station.

By 1972, Boss Radio on KGB was failing, and more focus was being given to KBKB. Brown Broadcasting hired Ron Jacobs to turn around the FM station. Jacobs' first move was to restore the KGB-FM call letters and to drop Boss Radio from 1360 AM. Jacobs created San Diego's first-ever freeform progressive album-oriented rock FM station, further nurtured by station general manager Sonny Jim Price. Among the innovations introduced during this era of KGB-FM is the station's "KGB Chicken" (now known as the "San Diego Chicken"), a series of records called the Homegrown albums, and the "Sky Show", a fireworks display set to rock music.

KGB-FM has hosted many of San Diego's radio and television personalities. Such hosts include Lawrence "Larry The Cruiser" Himmel, Bob "B.C." Coburn, Dave Benson, Damian Bragdon, Gabriel Wisdom, Erik Thompson, Jim McInnes, Rick Leibert, Patrick Martin, Larry Bruce, Bill Hergonson, Ernesto Gladden, Ted Edwards, Linda McInnes, Digby Welch, Kevin McKeown, Pamela Edwards, Brian Schock, Susan Hemphill, John Leslie, Andrew "Long Tall Andy" Geller, Blair and Kymythy Schultz, Phil Hendrie, Jeff Prescott, Michael Berger, Susan "Sue" Delaney, Coe Lewis, "Steve-o", Cynthia "Spicy Cindy" Spicer, Ted "The Chicken" Giannoulas, and Mojo Nixon. KGB-FM news directors Brad Messer and Brent Seltzer were the original 'NEWS BROTHERS,' producing ratings with their Mid Day News & Comment. Others reading the news included Gerry Gazlay and George Wilson.

One longtime fixture on KGB-FM and San Diego rock radio was The DSC Show. The morning zoo program, hosted by Dave Rickards, Shelly Dunn, and Cookie "Chainsaw" Randolph, debuted on KGB-FM in 1990 as The Dawn Patrol. In 1994, the program moved to KIOZ (originally at 102.1 FM, now at 105.3), where it was renamed The Dave, Shelly and Chainsaw Show and aired for three years. Upon returning to KGB-FM in 1997, the show's name was shortened to The DSC, and from August 2, 2010 to July 19, 2018, the program was broadcast on KFMB-FM (100.7). Prior to the show's cancellation, co-host Shelly Dunn announced her retirement from radio broadcasting. On August 6, 2018, The DSC Show returned to KGB-FM once again, with the remainder of the cast, but ultimately ended in December 2022 when the hosts retired. The next month, "KGB Mornings with Sarah, Boyer and Clint" made its debut.

KGB-FM airs The Beatles Radio Show, hosted by Ken Dashow, on Sundays.

The World Famous 101 KGB-FM/San Diego Chicken
In 1974, KGB introduced the "KGB-FM 101 Chicken", an advertising mascot played by Ted Giannoulas. Ted, then a student at San Diego State University, was hired to wear a chicken outfit for a promotion to distribute KGB Easter eggs to children at the San Diego Wild Animal Park. The KGB Chicken, whose wacky but fun antics entertained steadily larger crowds, moved on to be featured at concerts and sporting events, including appearances at more than 520 consecutive San Diego Padres baseball games. Conflict emerged, however, between the station and Giannoulas, and he was dismissed in 1977. Another unnamed employee was hired to take his place, which triggered a lawsuit by Giannoulas.

After a court found his favor in June 1979, Giannoulas was allowed to continue performing in a chicken costume, but not the same as the original costume. His return, this time as the San Diego Chicken was witnessed by 47,000 people at what was called a "Grand Hatching" event, where he emerged from a Styrofoam egg as Also sprach Zarathustra (composed by Richard Strauss) played. Since then, Giannoulas and his alternate ego, The Chicken, have represented the city of San Diego and 101 KGB-FM.

Homegrown song contest and albums
In 1973, KGB-FM created an annual contest called "Homegrown," in which local singers and songwriters submitted songs about the San Diego area for inclusion on an album produced by the station. The songwriting contest was the brainchild of KGB-FM program director Ron Jacobs, who first held such an event at KHJ (AM) in Los Angeles. The Homegrown album series was introduced in response to the cancellation of the popular "Charity Ball" event at San Diego Stadium. Proceeds from sale of the albums were donated to local charities. The contest ran through 1978, yielding seven albums named Homegrown through Homegrown VII with copyrights from 1973 to 1979. There were two additional Homegrown albums: Homegrown's Greatest Hits (1978) with favorite selections from previous albums, and Homegrown Songs for '84 with additional songs by San Diego artists about the area.

 * Homegrown (1973)
 * Homegrown II (1974)
 * Homegrown III (1975)
 * Homegrown IV (1976)
 * Homegrown V (1977)
 * Homegrown Greatest Hits (1978)
 * Homegrown VI (1978)
 * Homegrown VII (1979)
 * Homegrown '84 (1983)

In 1976, singer Stephen Bishop submitted his song "On and On." Still, it was rejected because he submitted it on cassette tape instead of the required reel-to-reel format. The song later went on to become a commercial hit.

Sky Show
In 1976, KGB-FM launched the annual "KGB Sky Show" which has been held almost continuously ever since. The "Sky Show" is a fireworks display, synchronized to a music soundtrack, broadcast on the radio. This art form was invented by KGB and is now practiced worldwide. The first Sky Show was fired from Fiesta Island and Chollas Lake. It created traffic jams all over the city as people watched and listened. The firing site was moved to San Diego Stadium for reasons of crowd control. The show has become a very well-attended annual event, with fans viewing from both inside the stadium and outside, tailgating in the parking lot or from vantage points along Mission Valley's canyon rim. The KGB Sky Show also introduced Rock and Roll music, multimedia, video, theatrical lighting, and effects to enhance the fireworks display. According to its creator, Rick Leibert, Sky Show is a "continuing experiment blending the ancient art of fireworks with rock and roll." The creative team for Sky Show has been collaborating for more than 20 years. Blair Schultze has been a Writer/Producer/Director of the KGB Sky Show since 1988, and Ron Dixon has been a Fireworks coordinator since 1979 and choreographer since 1990.

title: KGB-FM


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José Manuel Carreño

José Manuel Carreño (born 25 May 1968) is a retired Cuban ballet dancer, who performed as a principal dancer with the English National Ballet, Royal Ballet and American Ballet Theatre.

Carreño started dancing at the age of ten and received his training at the Provincial School of Ballet and the Cuban National Ballet School. He won the Gold Medal at the New York International Ballet Competition in 1987 and the Grand Prix at the International Ballet Competition in Jackson, Mississippi in 1990. He has appeared extensively in Europe, Latin America and the United States, dancing such roles as Franz in Coppélia, Basilio in Don Quixote, Albrecht in Giselle and Prince Siegfried in Swan Lake. He has also performed in the principal roles in such works as Le Corsaire, the Diane and Actéon pas de deux and the Black Swan pas de deux.

He has been principal dancer in the English National Ballet in 1990, The Royal Ballet in 1993 and the American Ballet Theatre starting in 1995.

In 2004 Carreño received the Dance Magazine Award for significant contributions to the ballet world.

In 2007 he appeared in the movie, Born to Be Wild – The Leading Men of American Ballet Theatre with Angel Corella, Ethan Stiefel and Vladimir Malakhov, directed by Judy Kinberg and produced by Jodee Nimerichter.

On 30 June 2011 he gave his final performance with the ABT in New York City at the Metropolitan Opera House in Swan Lake featuring Julie Kent and Gillian Murphy as Odille and Odette. Carreño was joined on stage by other members of the company including Marcelo Gomes, Maxim Beloserkovsky and Cory Stearns who hoisted him overhead.

Carreño served as the artistic director of the Ballet San Jose from 3 September 2013 until the company closed in 2016.

He has performed on Dancing With The Stars television program.

Carreño was Artistic Director of the Carreño Dance Festival in Sarasota, Florida until the program was discontinued in 2015. He served as the Artistic Director of Ballet de Monterrey (Mexico)from November 2016 until December 2018.

Personal life
Carreno was married to fellow dancer Lourdes Novoa and had two daughters, Carmen and Alessandra. Carreño was engaged to fellow ballet dancer Melanie Hamrick. They ended their relationship in 2014.

title: José Manuel Carreño


text:
Rhacophoridae

The Rhacophoridae are a family of frogs in tropical sub-Saharan Africa, South India and Sri Lanka, Japan, northeastern India to eastern China and Taiwan, south through the Philippines and Greater Sundas, and Sulawesi. They are commonly known as shrub frogs, or more ambiguously as "moss frogs" or "bush frogs". Some Rhacophoridae are called "tree frogs". Among the most spectacular members of this family are numerous "flying frogs".

Although a few groups are primarily terrestrial, rhacophorids are predominantly arboreal treefrogs. Mating frogs, while in amplexus, hold on to a branch, and beat their legs to form a foam. The eggs are laid in the foam and covered with seminal fluid before the foam hardens into a protective casing. In certain species, this process occurs collectively. The foam is deposited above a water source, ensuring that the tadpoles drop into the water upon hatching.

The species within this family vary in size from 1.5 to 12 cm. Like other arboreal frogs, they have toe discs, and those of the genus Chiromantis have two opposable fingers on each hand. This family also contains the Old World flying frogs, including Wallace's flying frog (Rhacophorus nigropalmatus). These frogs have extensive webbing between their fore and hind limbs, allowing them to glide through the air.

Evolution
The Rhacophoridae are the sister group to the Mantellidae, a family of frogs restricted to Madagascar. Both families are thought to have diverged during the Paleocene, although previous studies estimated a Cretaceous divergence. Two different hypotheses for this divergence have been proposed: one that the Mantellidae and Rhacophoridae diverged when Insular India broke from Madagascar, with the Rhacophoridae colonizing the rest of Asia following the collision of India with Asia, and the other proposing that the common ancestors of both families inhabited Asia, with the ancestral Mantellidae colonizing Madagascar from India via long-distance dispersal, using India as a stepping stone.

Genera

 * Subfamily Buergeriinae Channing, 1989
 * Buergeria Tschudi, 1838
 * Subfamily Rhacophorinae Hoffman, 1932 (1858)
 * Beddomixalus Abraham, Pyron, Ansil, Zachariah, and Zachariah, 2013
 * Chirixalus Boulenger, 1893
 * Chiromantis Peters, 1854
 * Feihyla Frost, Grant, Faivovich, Bain, Haas, Haddad, de Sá, Channing, Wilkinson, Donnellan, Raxworthy, Campbell, Blotto, Moler, Drewes, Nussbaum, Lynch, Green, and Wheeler, 2006
 * Ghatixalus Biju, Roelants, and Bossuyt, 2008
 * Gracixalus Delorme, Dubois, Grosjean, and Ohler, 2005
 * Kurixalus Ye, Fei, and Dubois, 1999
 * Leptomantis Peters, 1867
 * Liuixalus Li, Che, Bain, Zhao, and Zhang, 2008
 * Mercurana Abraham et al., 2013
 * Nasutixalus Jiang, Yan, Wang, and Che, 2016
 * Nyctixalus Boulenger, 1882
 * Philautus Gistel, 1848
 * Polypedates Tschudi, 1838
 * Pseudophilautus Laurent, 1943
 * Raorchestes Biju, Shouche, Dubois, Dutta, and Bossuyt, 2010
 * Rhacophorus Kuhl and Van Hasselt, 1822
 * Rohanixalus Biju, Garg, Gokulakrishnan, Chandrakasan, Thammachoti, Ren, Gopika, Bisht, Hamidy, and Shouche, 2020
 * Taruga Meegaskumbura, Meegaskumbura, Bowatte, Manamendra-Arachchi, Pethiyagoda, Hanken, and Schneider, 2010
 * Theloderma Tschudi, 1838
 * Vampyrius Dubois, Ohler, and Pyron, 2021
 * Zhangixalus Li, Jiang, Ren, and Jiang, 2019

Phylogeny
This phylogeny of the Rhacophoridae is from Yu et al. (2008):

Parasites
As many frogs, rhacophorids harbour monogenean worms in their urinary bladders. The parasite species specialized to this family of frogs belong to the genus Indopolystoma, described in 2019.

title: Rhacophoridae


text:
District Court of Western Australia

The District Court of Western Australia is the intermediate court in Western Australia. The District Court commenced in 1970, amid additional stress placed on the existing Magistrates Court and Supreme Court due to the increasing population of Western Australia. At its inception, the Court consisted of four judges: Sydney Howard Good, William Page Pidgeon, Desmond Charles Heenan and Robert Edmond Jones.

In the Criminal jurisdiction it hears serious, indictable criminal offences for which the maximum penalty is 25 years imprisonment.In the Civil jurisdiction, the District Court hears civil claims of up to $750 000 and has unlimited jurisdiction in claims for damages in personal injury cases.Decisions from the Magistrates Court and some tribunals can be appealed against in the District Court. The court is low in the Australian court hierarchy.

The current Chief Judge of the District Court is Julie Anne Wager, who has held the position since 2 May 2020.

History
Prior to the District Court's commencement, Western Australia's court system had two tiers: the lower tier consisting of the Court of Petty Sessions and the Local Court; and the upper tier consisting solely of the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court held jurisdiction over all indictable criminal offences and civil matters, whilst the Court of Petty Sessions held jurisdiction over summary criminal offences, committal jurisdiction for indictable offences, whilst the Local Court had jurisdiction to hear civil claims not exceeding $1,000, and not on categories of claims including ejectment, title to land, wills, libel, slander, seduction or breach of promise of marriage. The most distinct separation in decision making was between the jurisdiction of judges, who were officers of the Supreme Court, and stipendiary magistrates and Justices of the Peace of the lower Courts.

Following World War II, Western Australia experienced positive annual population growth of approximately 3%. The population grew from 481,530 in 1944 to 954,846 by 1969. During this period and towards the beginning of the 1960s, public interest in establishing an intermediary Court began, as the court system experienced an increased volume of legal matters. A particular example is the near doubling of divorce petitions heard by the Supreme Court, increasing from 570 in 1960 to 1,006 in 1968.

Whilst the issues were identified in the middle of the 1960s, government officials delayed the introduction of the Court in order to consult legal professionals and their bodies, such as the Law Society of Western Australia. A sub-committee within the Law Society was established and recommended a District Court that would serve the entire Western Australian state, with a base in Perth and rotational registrars in other localities. An alternative proposal was investigated by the then Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Western Australia, Sir Albert Wolff KCMG, which would be to establish an intermediary court in the north of Western Australia to accommodate growing populations.

The District Court of Western Australia Act 1969 was passed by both Houses of the Western Australian Parliament on 17 November 1969, with the District Court commencing on 1 April 1970 following a proclamation by the Governor Douglas Kendrew on 26 March. According to Griffith (1969), the District Court was introduced to "enable adequate administration of justice in our expanding community." Griffith (1969) identified four key advantages to establishing a District Court, being (a) decentralising the legal profession to serve areas outside of Perth, (b) enabling Western Australia to legislate for uncontentious divorce petitions to be heard in the District Court, (c) preventing backlog in the Supreme Court, and (d) to establish a flexible judicial system for future administration of justice.

Legal developments since commencement
The District Court has introduced judicial features to assist the expedience of the court process. An example is the introduction of case management for criminal cases by Chief Judge Antoinette Kennedy, which reduced criminal proceeding durations by 56 weeks to an average of 20 weeks. A more recent development has been the introduction of electronic document filing and trial systems for civil proceedings.

Jurisdiction
Unlike other Australian District Courts, the District Court of Western Australia is not an inferior court in respect of its criminal justidiction. It is a superior court, meaning it has unlimited jurisdiction for criminal matters and derives its power from legislation.

The District Court is given the jurisdiction to hear criminal cases. At introduction, the District Court only had jurisdiction over indictable offences where the maximum punishment was less than 14 years, as these matters were tried in the Supreme Court. As the judicial system has reformed, the District Court now has jurisdiction over all indictable offences except for murder, manslaughter, attempts to unlawfully kill and the offence of preventing the birth of a live child. The District Court can hear appeals to reconsider the factual evidence from a primary court such as the local court.

The District Court also holds jurisdiction to determine civil actions. Initially, the limit on claimable sum was $6,000 at the Court's inception, but that has since been increased to a limit of $750,000. It is unclear whether or not the District Court can exercise equitable jurisdiction, however the District Court held that its legislating act does not expressly confer on the Court jurisdiction to grant the equitable remedy of specific performance.

Appeals can be made against decisions of the District Court. Appeals are made to the Court of Appeals division of the Supreme Court.

Rules
Cases determined in the District Court must follow the District Court Rules 2005 (WA). Between 1996 and 2005, District Court cases were required to abide by the District Court Rules 1996 (WA). These rules include the filing and service of court documents, rules regarding pre-trial case management,  rules regarding the submission and handling of evidence,  and rules regarding appeals heard in the District Court.

In addition, cases heard in the District Court must also follow the rules of the Supreme Court, unless there is an inconsistency in which case the District Court Rules 2005 (WA) prevails.

Perth Registry
The District Court was initially situated in the Old Supreme Court Building in Perth, but moved to the Public Trust Office in 1971 where it sat for ten years until 1982. The District Court then moved to the Central Law Courts which finished construction and was opened in 1982. The Central Law Courts initially housed both the Perth District Court registry and the lower courts, however by the 1990s and 2000s it was recognised that the District Court had accumulated systemic backlog and had outgrown the Central Law Courts building.

The District Court's current residence at 500 Hay Street was the location of the former St George's Hall, which was an entertainment theatre built in 1879. Its portico façade is heritage listed, and was retained on the external walls of the Courthouse after considerable liaison with the Heritage Council.

The present District Court building began construction in 2005, with the building being completed in 2008. Its location is opposite the Central Law Courts Building, and there is a subterranean connection between the two buildings. The building has fifteen levels, with a total of 24 courtrooms and 32 judges’ chambers.

Circuit Courts
The District Court has 12 other registries, located at Albany, Broome, Bunbury, Busselton, Carnarvon, Derby, Esperance, Geraldton, Kalgoorlie, Karratha, Kununurra, and South Hedland, which hear predominantly criminal trials. 737 total criminal hearings, including both sentencing hearings and trials, were heard in the Circuit courts in 2019. In the year 2000, the District Court allocated 120 ‘judge weeks’ to all 12 Circuit courts, with this increasing to around 140 weeks by 2019.

Appointment criteria
The District Court of Western Australia Act 1969 introduced criteria for the appointment of judges. Judges are appointed by the Governor of Western Australia, and enjoy tenure of office on the condition of good behaviour, although the Governor can "upon the address of both Houses of Parliament, remove any District Court judge from his office and revoke his commission". As with Supreme Court judges, District Court judges have a mandatory retirement age of 70 years. Judges are eligible for appointment if they are admitted lawyers in Australia, and have no less than eight years of legal experience.

Auxiliary judges can also be appointed for a period not exceeding 12 months, where a judge of the District or Supreme Courts has exceeded the age of retirement. Auxiliary judges are appointed where there are pending proceedings that a retiring judge is involved in, so that the hearing or determination can be completed by the retiring judge.

Following the introduction of the Children's Court of Western Australia, District Court judges may simultaneously hold judicial office in the Children's Court.

Chief Judges
At its inception, the District Court had four serving judges, with Sydney Good appointed as the first Chairman of Judges. The title of Chairman of Judges was later changed to Chief Judge, during the tenure of Desmond Heenan. To date there have been eight Chief Judges.

Current Judges
The District Court of Western Australia currently has 34 judges, including the Chief Judge Julie Wager and one auxiliary judge, Bruce Goetze.

title: District Court of Western Australia


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Sunlight (disambiguation)

Sunlight is the total spectrum of the electromagnetic radiation given off by the Sun.

Sunlight may also refer to:

Places

 * Sunlight, Missouri, US, an unincorporated community
 * Sunlight, West Virginia, US, an unincorporated community
 * Sunlight Peak, a mountain in Colorado
 * Sunlight Peak (Wyoming), a mountain
 * Sunlight Ski Area, a ski area near Glenwood Springs, Colorado

Arts and entertainment

 * Sunlight (Benson), a 1909 painting by Frank Weston Benson
 * John Sunlight, a fictional nemesis of Doc Savage
 * Sunlight, a 1913 short film starring Francis X. Bushman

Music

 * Sunlight Studio, a recording studio in Stockholm, Sweden

Albums

 * Sunlight (Herbie Hancock album) or the title song, 1978
 * Sunlight (Nicky Byrne album) or the title song (see below), 2016
 * Sunlight (Spacey Jane album), 2020
 * Sunlight, by the Youngbloods, 1971

Songs

 * "Sunlight" (DJ Antoine song), 2011
 * "Sunlight" (DJ Sammy song), 2002
 * "Sunlight" (The Magician song), 2014
 * "Sunlight" (Modestep song), 2011
 * "Sunlight" (Nicky Byrne song), 2016
 * "Sunlight", by Bag Raiders from Bag Raiders, 2010
 * "Sunlight", by Deas Vail from Birds and Cages, 2010
 * "Sunlight", by Diana Vickers, a B-side of the single "Once", 2010
 * "Sunlight", by Hozier from Wasteland, Baby!, 2019
 * "Sunlight", by Oh Land from Family Tree, 2019
 * "Sunlight", by TheFatRat and Phaera, 2019
 * "Sunlight", by Tune-Yards from Bird-Brains, 2009
 * "Sunlight", written by Jesse Colin Young, released by the Youngbloods on Elephant Mountain, 1969, and covered by Three Dog Night on Naturally, 1970
 * "The Sunlight" by Janis Ian from Present Company, 1971

Sports

 * Sunlight (horse) (foaled 2015), an Australian Thoroughbred racehorse
 * Sunlight Park, a one-time baseball park in Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Transport

 * SS Sunlight, originally SS Empire Balfour, a refrigerated cargo ship for the Pan-Norse Steamship Company 1962-1967
 * Sunair Sunlight, a German ultralight electric trike aircraft

Other uses

 * Sunlight (cleaning product), a brand of laundry soap
 * Sunlight Foundation, a foundation for promoting online government transparency
 * Sunlight House, an art deco office building in Manchester, England
 * Joseph Sunlight (1889–1978), Russian-English architect

title: Sunlight (disambiguation)


text: User talk:71.34.83.215

title: User talk:71.34.83.215