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Talk:Nazi punk

Band reference edits
Who edited the Nazi punk band section and why? I see no reaseon why it needs to be "cleaned-up". I propose we revert the section to how it was. How much clearer can refernces get? What exactly qualifies "credible" on this site after all?user:El Chivi

Citations...
How are we supposed to cite how the music sounds itself? Providing links to MP3s? That's ridiculous! The same goes for the lyrics. There are already links to the Nazi punk bands listed and one only needs to look at their song titles to see what their songs are about. The citation for the claim that Nazi punk may have started in '77 is fair enough, but the rest are insanely stupid. user:El Chivi

One could simply describe the sound using words. "Loud", "mid-tempo", "4/4 time" could all be good words to start with perhaps? Maybe describe it in comparison to other similar genres. --Chicagomusicfan (talk) 11:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Punk apologist
This line right here sounds a bit POV to me - "refers to neo-Nazis who claim to be a part of the punk subculture." Claim? They ARE a part of the subculture, and to state 'claim' shows an obvious POV by the author. They may be a fringe part of it, but they are apart of it, esp the early history of it (going into the 70s) user:Pzg Ratzinger

Catholics?!

 * Who was ridiculous enough to add "Catholics" to the minority groups Nazi punks write songs expressing hatred towards? Most Nazi punk bands I've heard are atheists and tend to either condemn religion in general, or else choose not to comment on it at all. In general, most people who consider themselves "White Power" (Skinheads, Punks, or otherwise) and Christians either condemn all mainstream religions including Protestantism (and only respect their strange racist Christian and pagan groups), or they actually partake in them, including Catholicism.

 * National Socialism, as espoused by the NSDAP (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei commonly known as the NAZI party), is by definition a Christian ideology that has been at odds with with Roman Catholicism since its inception. Modern WP followers also tend to be rabidly anti-catholic (at least here in the United States), adhering to their twisted version of the Protestant faith.  Cheers. L0b0t 15:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The sentence in the article says Nazi punk bands target certain groups in their song lyrics. Do you have evidence that Nazi punk bands sing songs against Catholics? Spylab 21:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

-what are these books?
 * Hitler himself was a Catholic and the Vatican had a long history of supporting the Nazi government. The Vatican even helped smuggle Nazi war criminals to South America! There are entire books going into detail about this. And how is National Socialism a "Christian ideology" at all? No church dictated to the state how to be run, the party had no official religion. Perhaps certain neo-Nazis choose to be at odds with Catholicism, but certainly not all and this doesn't even have anything to do with Nazi punk.

 * "Hitler & The Vatican" by Peter Godman, "The Catholic Church & Nazi Germany" by Guenter Lewy, "Hitler's Pope" by John Cornwell, etc. It's also mentioned in various books going over National Socialist era Germany which detail Catholic involvement, especially in helping Nazi officials flee the country following the demise of the government. Germany was allied with Fascist Italy, of which Catholicism was the official state religion. Read "Mein Kampf" even and read Hitler's own words in which he clearly stated the party would not be religiously partisan and treat all Germans of any faith (excluding Jews -who are also a race, obviously) equally. The Nazi government was run very secularly and recent historic documents and recordings have even shown Hitler to personally be highly Darwinistic and atheistic. Most figures in Nazi leadership were raised Catholic, including: Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbles, and Heinrich Himmler. Many of them either stayed Catholic, turned to Paganism, or later became atheists. I recommend talking with historians who specialize in contemporary European history and politics for further information.

Just because Hitler worked with Catholic churches does not qualify your classification of him as being "a Catholic". Also perhaps some British Nationalist Nazi punks racism against Irish minorities (who are often Catholic) is being confused here for being "Nazi Punks are against Catholics in general"?

--Chicagomusicfan (talk) 11:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Nazi punk band: I.N.F.A.N.T.R.Y.
While browsing the catalogs for some internet NS/WP stores, I stumbled on a not-too-well-known Nazi punk band. The sites list them as "punk-core", more details can be found:    I want to add this band to the list, but wanted to know first if it qualifies.

 * Actually INFANTRY is a hatecore band featuring Skinhead and Metalhead band members. Their latest album might be considered "punk-core" in style, but the members certainly aren't punks and therefore not a Nazi punk band.

 * I don't even listen to Nazi Punk, or anything racist for that matter, but if the music was considered "punk-core", wouldn't they still fall under the Nazi-punk definition? The music should have something to do with the classification. Even if the members aren't punk, they still play a form of punk, so the music is by definition very much punk. Hardcore is a form of punk, so if hatecore is a form of hardcore, wouldn't hatecore be a form or evolution of Nazi-punk? If a band had Nazi-Skinhead members, but played apolitical punk, they wouldn't be considered Nazi-Punk because of the music and it's content. A lot of staunchly Anti-Nazi punks and skins like the first Skrewdriver album, which has nothing to do with Ian Stuart's politics or beliefs. It is entirely apolitical in nature. Skrewdriver wasn't considered racist in their first incarnation because of the subject matter. Wouldn't it be fair given that example to classify a band by what their music sounds like rather than what subculture the band members belong to? The band Face to Face were just a bunch of metalheads who played in a punk band, but their music is agreed to be punk in sound, so they are a punk band. You don't have people calling Avril Lavinge punk (that know what they are talking about, anyways), just because she might be into punk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.15.146.252 (talk) 04:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Secondly when you say: "Hardcore is a form of punk, so if hatecore is a form of hardcore, wouldn't hatecore be a form or evolution of Nazi-punk? " The answer can be Yes and no. Hatecore is not necessarily hardcore, the term "core" when used in the underground / punk scene refers to what is at the "core" of the music, both sonically and ideologically. For outsiders, this can be confusing. Many people consider "Hardcore" to be separate, while still related, genre from "Hardcore Punk", and as such, Hardcore in its modern form is NOT NECESSARILY a "form of punk". This would be like saying that Reggae is a form of Ska, which it is not by most accounts. The two genres and scenes are related and often do overlap, however. Hardcore techno is not a form of Industrial music, but they are related..can you follow me here? "Hardcore" and "Fastcore" refer to the sound/speed of the music, while "Queercore" refers to lyrical and idealogical themes, and terms like "Scandi-core" and "Jap-core" refer to the sound from a certain area of the world. Then, terms like "emo-core" refer to both sound and lyrical themes. "Hatecore" can be any form of subculture music which has a message of racism / hate, even if they play Pop-punk, Oi, or Emo. Whether INFANTRY is a Nazi Punk band depends upon how much of their music is actually "punk" and not metal, or just hardcore? Ministry is known best as an industrial band, because that is what MOST of their known material can be classified under, even thought they had records which were in the Synthpop genre. So if INFANTRY only had one "punk" sounding album, then they may be a racist hardcore or metalcore band who had a "punk" phase. Also, are we sure this I.N.F.A.N.T.R.Y. is the same INFANTRY-there could be two bands with the same / similar name? Maybe this one actually are punks and the other one are metal / skinheads?
 * Firstly, There is no such genre as "punk core". It would be redundant.There is a rather popular indie label called "Punk Core Records" from the US, and perhaps this Nazi label is trying to promote their band by suggesting that it sounds similar to the music on that label. However, the music on the Punk Core label is primarily Oi and some faster hardcore punk, and it is not referred to as "punk core" as a genre.

--Chicagomusicfan (talk) 11:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Streetpunk
Whoever keeps deleting "Streetpunk" from the punk music genres Nazi punks play and from the category section please STOP! Nazi punks have played in music they self-proclaim as "Streetpunk" (see The Italian Dogs and Forward Area). It doesn't matter whether or not you approve of it. We are trying to keep this article as accurate as possible so please keep your personal views out of it. User:BoredAndViolent

Got a picture of some Nazi punks
Don't know too well how article editing works, but if anyone's interested in putting this photo up, the link is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nazipunks.jpg#file Thanks

 * That's a very interesting picture. I'll try to add it to the article today. Do you have any more information on it? Like what year it's from? Which group they were marching with? A web link or anything?

It's been scanned from a book called Ethnic Cleansing, by Mary Hull (1997 Lucent Books, Inc). The picture had a short caption below it, but said nothing about the date it was taken or which group was marching.

Brutal Attack
The source providing the information about them turning into a Punk band briefly can only be found within the nazi punk article in Condemned magazine issue 2 (which doesn't provide the article online). I can put a reference to where you can buy the magazine if that works. I referenced a link which shows the two Punk shows they played when they made the transition. User:BoredAndViolent

Elizabeth Gunn
Elizabeth Gunn are seriously a pretty intense Nazi Punk band from Canada. Please stop removing their name from the list of bands! (by anonymous editor)

 * According to all the hits that come up from Google, Elizabeth Gunn is an author. Do not add that name again without reliable sources. http://www.elizabethgunn.com Spylab 21:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

RELIABLE SOURCE: www.myspace.com/elizabethgunn (by anonymous editor)

 * That Myspace profile says absolutely nothing indicating any connection to Nazi punk. Spylab 01:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

--Chicagomusicfan (talk) 11:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Plus, the myspace listed shows the band Elizabeth Gunn under Electro / Indie / Rock. Not even punk at all. Is this just someone trying to call this band "nazis" because they dont like them for some reason?

The vandal who keeps incorrectly adding the band named above is an anonymous IP useer who does nothing but vandalize articles. The IP is 74.106.128.229 and has been warned and temporarily blocked several times. Hopefully someone will permanently ban this vandal ro prevent the person from destroying Wikipedia articles. Spylab 16:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Nazi PUNKS not Nazi Skinheads...
To those of you who wish to contribute to this article, please refrain from entering in information pertaining to Skinheads. The point of this article is to show the difference between Nazi punks and Nazi Skinheads and to show that Nazi punks exist within the punk subculture. These are two different subcultures and though people often mistakenly call racist skinheads "Nazi punks" they aren't the same thing at all.

The Fuck Ups
The band listed as The Fuck-Ups aren't a nazi punk band. I've spoken with punks from back in the day and they've told me so. There's nothing fascist about their lyrics anyway. Minus the song "White Boy" on their only album, FU 82, there's nothing that could link them with being nazis, and even the song doesn't have any racist message or praise of the white race (I'm willing to type up the lyrics if need be). I'd like to see someone prove otherwise.

 * I'm sorry, but The Fuck-Ups were a racist Punk band. Their EP (FU82) only featured a few tracks, one of which "White Boy" was a racist song. It doesn't matter if people try to sugar coat that bands history or not, lyrics like "White boy can't you see you're a minority? White boy shoot and White boy kill" can't be defended. They will remain on the list.
 * That's ironic, since one of my favorite songs is also called "White Boy", but it's by Bikini Kill and has the lyrics "White boy just die". Anyway, if those are the lyrics of that song, I think they should probably be on this list unless there is some reputable source that says otherwise. The Ungovernable   Force  04:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It never mentions anything about who he's shooting or killing. They just happen to mention that in the song. Please provide some actual background info on the band to back this point up. Also, have you seen the album cover? It's a white baby with a knife in its head. I should add that the FLEX discography describes the album as this, "Obnoxious & nihilistic punk from CA. The music is pretty simple & noisy but how can you go wrong with titles like "I think you're shit"... [6]. No mention of it having any far right-wing resemblence, and these veterans have reviewed 6,980 punk/hardcore albums. From the same discography I discovered that they released tracks on V/A compilations, one of the other songs on a compilation was "Smash the Nazis" by Art . So they released songs on albums with dirty commies?

 * Isn't it obvious who they mean by "White Boy shoot and White Boy kill"? and they are mentioning Whites as a minority. Can't you put two and two together? It doesn't get much clearer than that. Of course I've seen the album cover and heard the entire EP, how else would I know anything about this band? Yes, there is a baby with a knife in it's head (which is really disgusting). What's your point exactly? That since it's a White baby they can't be racist and are probably anti-racist? Hah! Come on now, this is getting silly. How can you even tell it's a White baby? Because it's not Black? It could be a Jewish or maybe even Mexican baby for all we know. Considering the fact the band wasn't around for long and only released one EP, it's very difficult to find information on them, their music is all that remains. That and peoples opinions, which I have found numerous people claiming they were indeed racist. Their music has one of the definitions of being a Nazi punk band, it's RACIST. It's not National Socialist or even Nationalistic because they weren't political, but that song is certainly racist. It's fine FLEX reviewed it (and what a very short review at that). They also reviewed White Pride, who were without question a White Power Punk band. Their review means nothing, it doesn't give an in-depth interview with the bands to find out what they actually believe in or not. Oh and I'm sure they were on compilations with non-racist and even anti-racist Punk bands, what's your point exactly? I just pointed out the fact they weren't a highly political band and I'm sure later on they may have changed their minds on their view of race (much like many Nazi Punk bands have done). However, considering they were racist at one point, they need to be on this list. End of story.

They had one EP and a couple of compilation tracks...I've heard about a live bootleg, but have never come across it. The song, "White Boy" has very questionable lyrics. That I will give you, but considering the scarcity of information, they should not be on this list at all. From what I've read, they weren't particularly racist, but did it for shock value. Kind of like Sid Vicious wearing a swastika shirt. Considering the time and where they hailed from (San Francisco), it is not hard to make that association. The only real sources are the song "White Boy", and unreliable word of mouth. Let them forever live in ambiguity. They are certainly not notable enough to be listed here. ZAchAtTacK 20:57, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, there were a lot of bands in the early hardcore scene from all around the country that had "questionable lyrics". Hardcore punk and punk in general in the early days had a lot of lyrics reacting to their various social circumstances regarding race and are not considered racist. I'd relate "White Boy" to "Guilty Of Being White"...Ian Mackaye was talking about being singled out for being white in an area where their were whites were a "minority" population. That song wasn't considered racist, but if it were released now, it would...Look at the controversy that Slayer started with their cover of the song where they changed the last line...Considering the most of the audience they were addressing hadn't heard the original song, it was construed as being racist. They released it at a different time, and everyone jumped all over it, disregarding Slayer's racial makeup. The Fuck-Ups song, if you listen, it seems very tongue-in-cheek. I don't thing the band was at all serious about the lyrics, and either way, it was way more acceptable back then...Obscure bands like Roach Motel ("Wetback"), and Pagan Faith ("White Nigger's Anthem") aren't considered racist, but that may be because of obscurity and the context which the songs were written. The Fuck-Ups are obscure and I don't see the lyrics in "White Boy" as anything to be taken seriously...The song isn't written in a hateful or demeaning context to anyone.

One song with "questionable" lyrics about whites being a minority does NOT qualify a band as Nazi Punk!! As mentioned above, Minor Threat is not considered Nazi hardcore, nor is Black Flag. They had a song called "White Minority" too see the lyrics here:
 * Okay, okay. Nazi Punk is Punk music with pro-Nazi themes plain and simple!!!!

Making comments on ethnic statistics may be "politically incorrect", but its not the same as promoting National Socialism and/or genocide. Secondly, when it is not clear what the context of the lyrics are, you are stretching the "nazi" label even further. They could be writing in a sarcastic tone, or even writing "in-persona" as someone else.

You can't just say "Isn't it obvious who they mean" unless you can provide an interview wherein the lyricist explains the song's meaning clearly. (Example: Dead Kennnedys having lyrics such as "I am governor Jerry Brown, my aura smiles and never frowns" is not an indication that Jerry Brown is actually their singer.)

The point is a LOT of punk and hardcore music has tongue in cheek lyrics, or just nihilist "hate everybody in the world" type of ideas in it. Misanthropy is not the same as NAZI-ism!! Lets keep it serious here and cut the "nazi" name calling of bands you dont like! --Chicagomusicfan (talk) 11:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

NPOV
This article is so npov I don't know where to begin. It is obviously from the point of view of an anti-nazi (ex: "However, because punk ideology rejects many beliefs of nazism, nazi punks cannot be viewed as 'true punks'"). I am putting my own abhorance for nazism aside for the sake of an educational and non-biased article. I will do what I can to revise, but I'm not an expert on nazi punk (nor do I want to be).
 * Me again, I finished my edits, if anyone knows anything else feel free to add it. I don't know how true the info is so all I changed was grammar and obviously biased statements. If the facts are wrong, don't blame me.
 * Me again (again). Someone added a swastika image. I think that is a bit too played out and generic. If there are any pictures of an actual nazi punk who looks like an obvious nazi punk, then that would be better. I'll leave it till someone or myself finds something better.
 * I'm looking for a better image. --Der Sporkmeister 11:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I found one at [de.wikipedia.org/ wiki/Neonazismus] but can't seem to figure out how to actually put it into the article. I copied the original code from the german page and put it here but it didn't show up. I have never done picture before though so I don't know how to edit it in.
 * If you want a new image, go ahead and put it up. This is a free encycloædia, so if you don't like an image, you're free to put it up.  I put the swastika there because it was the best image related to the article topic I could find.  --Der Sporkmeister 18:31, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

While I see the need to put an article on Nazi Punks on the Wiki, since they exist, I don't know how one can write about them without being biased. Either you agree with them or you don't. This is one of those rare times where it's pretty black and white. Arguably, there have been racist punks from the get go, though as a rule most punks are and have always been anti-racist. People like Sid Vicious didn't help with the spraypainting swastikas everywhere thing, though I expect it was primarily for shock value. This is probably the best you can do without asking some of the Nazi Punks to contribute to the article, which would be somewhat frightening.--Reverend Distopia 21:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * While I concur that the majority of the punk subculture is anti-racist, the article needn't be biased. It doesn't need to show that Nazi punks are either good or bad, but simply that they exist.  The second-or-so sentence is an example of the usage of weasel words (some do say that, I'm sure, but who?), while the rest is simply the No True Scotsman fallacy.  Right now, the article looks ok, though it could use a few NPOV checks, simply to ensure that we're writing merely on the subject of the existance of Nazi punks and what they are, without endorsing or deriding them.  Notable sources of criticism (such as the "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" section) is just fine and should be included when it can be dug up.  But that's just my view on it.216.80.91.72 09:09, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You'll be including...
What on earth were the innocuous British band The Dentists doing in the band list?! They were neither Nazis nor punks. If there has at some point been a Nazi band calling itself The Dentists, then it was most certainly not the band discussed in the Wikipedia article of that name, and the distinction should be made clear.

I only hope that this misinformation has not spread far enough via Wikipedia mirrors to damage the legitimate band's reputation! Perodicticus 21:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Wrong. There was a Nazi Punk band that was together in 1978-79 called The Dentists. They played many of the infamous Punk Front gigs in Leeds, England. The band broke-up shortly and it's not known if any of their material was ever recorded. I'm not sure if you know this, but bands form all the time with names that have already been used a lot. The Punk Front is discussed on the following links: http://www.uncarved.org/music/apunk/nme.html http://www.stormfront.org /forum/showthread.php?t=173652 There are also copies of the Punk Front magazine available online. If I'm able to scan mine I'll add it on.
 * That's fine, but this article still should not have included a link pointing to The Dentists' entry on Wikipedia, since that entry concerns a completely unrelated band. (As far as I can tell, the band you're discussing doesn't meet Wikipedia's notability criteria and therefore wouldn't have an entry of their own.) As I said, if any of the bands or musicians in this article share their names with non-Nazi performers, then the distinction between the two should be made very clear. I'm sure I don't have to explain how damaging any confusion could be. Perodicticus 12:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This article seems rather anti-nazi (not saying it should be nazi) but an article like this should be on a neutral standpoint. I know little of this genre but I will add a few more things. 12th March 2006

"Nazi Punk" vs. "Nazi punk"
Normally, "Punk" is not capitalized, unless it is at the start of a sentence, and I have not seen it capitalized when describing Nazi punks. With that in mind, this article should be named "Nazi punk" as opposed to "Nazi Punk". I took the liberty of moving it and changing the capitalization in the article. Does anyone disagree? Ecto 00:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I think "Punk" should be capitalized. I mean the term "Nazi Skinhead" is always capitalized, therefore "Nazi Punk" should be as well. This isn't mentioning how usually "Hardcore Punk", "Crust Punk", "Conservative Punk" and other Punk subculture factions are usually capitalized as well. Those are my two cents on the issue. "Nazi Punk" just looks more appropriate anyway.

 * I don't know. It seems to be the trend within Wikipedia articles themselves to leave punk uncapitalizied, even when it's part of phrases like "hardcore punk".  Also, looking through some of my zines and leafs, there seems to be a split about 3/4 in favour of leaving punk uncapitalized, too.  Capitalized, punk just looks weird to me, even when it's part of another phrase like "Nazi punk", and especially when that phrase is in a sentence.  Maybe it's a regional thing? Ecto 00:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

--Chicagomusicfan (talk) 12:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "Punk" should be capitalized when it refers to a person of that culture / type, as in "Skinheads" which are a culture not a genre, and in Nationalism where "Armenians" and "Jews" are always capitalized. The term "punk" referring to the genre of music could be lowercase.

opening paragraph
the opening paragraph states that Nazi Punk reffers to Punk music that is Nationalist, Racist, Fascist or Nazi. It should only reffer to the last. In any case, all the bands do it for shock value or haven't read 'Mein Kampf'. If they had, they would realise that they create "degenerate" negroid art.

 * Other non-Racist Punks call any Racist, Fascist, or Nationalist Punks "Nazi Punks". That's why that sentence states that. You may not agree with that, but you don't represent the entire subculture and you didn't come up with the label. Also, all the bands listed don't do it for "shock value" they honestly believe in racial superiority and the politics of Nazism. The side notes clearly distinguish that the "Nazi Punk" talked about in the article aren't the Punks from the '70s that worse swastikas for shock value attention.

 * People call copmplete disorder Anarchy, that's only colloqually speaking true. With respect to the actual term Nazi, it is different from those other -isms. Besides, they can't be real nazis, as they wouldn't be making rough sounding music that descended from the black man. A real Nazi would be horrified.

 * That's a matter of opinion and therefore can't be added on Wikipedia. Also, you can't possibly say that Nationalism, Fascism and Racialism weren't incorperated in National Socialism (Nazism). Those 3 ideologies are basically what makes Nazism so horrible. Look it up bub.

 * Besides, as the British TV documentary Swing Under the Swastika (1987) has demonstrated, the Nazis themselves were quite partial to a bit of "Decadent" (i.e., Black) Music, even when played by Jewish musicians in the death camps.
 * Nuttyskin 06:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Edited swastika image info
I added that a curved swastika is a symbol of nazism, not a swastika itself.

 * The Nazi swastika is angular, not curved. There are plenty of curved swastika designs, but the Nazis used one with right angles, as depicted. --FOo 05:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the band A.B.H. are nazis....Delete this name of that nazi punx bands list...
I was surfing on internet and I found that band A.B.H. Their web site was alright they say that they played with good bands like the Exploited & Chelsea (a band with socialist views)...I heard some of their songs (only 3 of them and I didn't search the lyrics...I'm italian so i need lyrics to understand well) The group seemed to be great so I decided to find more infos about them. But when I did it, I saw that wikipedia's page on yahoo that was saying that they're nazis...I'm not nazi (and proud of it) so i've decided to search a little more about them to make sure of it...And I found that interview: "''I hate to ask this question, but I can't avoid it... You also appeared on the "This Is White Noise" ep, alongside Skrewdriver, Brutal Attack, etc... Was ABH a white-power band? If so, are your views the same as they were then? Pete: That kind of happened toward the end. Getting stuff out was always hard and we made that call, probably not the best decision we ever made but it was a time when the band was cracking up, and well, maybe we thought releasing something would kind of re-focus us, who knows. We all make mistakes I guess. I don't want to make excuses, we did what we did and I stand by that. [...] But in answer to the other part of your question: We defiantly had a foot firmly and squarley in the skinhead camp and we make no apologies for that. Extreme views are a part of that culture but by no means all of it. I cannot give you a breakdown of the political views of all members of the band, but yes we were a British-and-proud-of-it outfit. We wore the Union Jack because we were proud to be British, but Nazis we were not. I am still proud of my heritage, but having worked in Bosnia over the last three years and having seen first hand just what that kind of extreme ideology means for real, I can tell you it's not pretty. I worked in Afghanistan in '86 and '88 with the Mujahadeen, risked my life and lost a friend. '''I have the greatest of respect for the people from that part of the world, their religion and their culture. I do not hate any group of people' (except maybe hippies)." So....they were not and they are not nazis... they shouldn't be on that list...Maybe it would be a good idea to create an ABH wiki-page and explaining what was said in this interview....Wikipedia seem to be popular so if there's false informations people will have false ideas...If you want to know where I found this interview go there: and click on the name of the band
 * I'll remove them from the list for now, but we can't really create a page that incorporates that interview because it does not meet the reliable sources policy. I did a quick search online for them and there are many sources that say they are nazis, but they mostly seem to be mirror sites of wikipedia. If anyone has more reliable sources to suggest they are or aren't nazis, that would be great. The Ungovernable   Force  22:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanx...for removing them from that list. Like you I did a quick search but didn't find something else...it's seem that they are really "one of those "forgotten" bands"....Maybe we can ask to the owner of this website (and interview) more informations about it?
 * Do you mean the owner of wikipedia? He won't know. I asked another editor on wikipedia who was part of the british anarcho-punk scene back in the 70s and 80s (they're friends with the people from Crass and Poison Girls and such) if they had heard of ABH, but they hadn't. I think this is the best you'll get. The Ungovernable   Force  02:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow you did a great job! thanx really...But I was talking about the owner of the website were I found the interview with A.B.H....maybe we can send him an e-mail and asking more informations...(sorry for the mystake it annoys me but I have a bad english so I can't express myself very well)

 * ABH Were, Without Question, A "White Power" Group At One Point

I think they should be put back on the list because, as it was already stated, they were featured on a "White Power" compilation, "White Noise", which put out by the National Front Organization. All the bands featured on the compilation were well-known openly White Power bands of the time and I know they definitely would not have featured ABH had they not been marketing themselves as that type of band at the time. Their song that was featured on it, entitled "Nerves Of Steel," was a "White Nationalist" song which targeted socialism, liberalism, and multicultralism and blamed that for all the supposed "downfall of Britain". You don't have to be a Natioanl Socialist (aka Nazi) band to be considered a "Nazi Punk" band. They may have not been Nazis politically, but they were proud to be White and White Power. Just because they are featured on some new interview (which date of just so happens to coincide with the re-release of their old material on a well respected apolitical label) in which they don't even deny this event does not in my opinion exempt them from being featured on this list.

 * Ok...I think that you must be right...but maybe we should talk about those new statements/interview...no?

 * I'm again deleting ABH from the list of Nazi Punk bands, because by all documented accounts, they were White Power at one point but not Nazi. Also, online interviews show that they have since changed their extremist views.Spylab 17:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

 * Don't you understand that what is commonly called "Nazi Punk" doesn't have to mean one being politically a National Socialist? If you bother to read the first paragraph in the article, Punk bands and individuals who are "believers in extreme Nationalism, Fascism, Racialism, or National Socialism" are considered "Nazi Punks". A.B.H. were White Power (racialists) and extremely Nationalistic at one point in their career and therefore, by Wikipedia (and common scene) definition, a Nazi Punk band. They fall under two of the qualifications. I know that a lot of people like A.B.H. and have an interest in others not thinking they were White Nationalists, but the fact remains they were at one point, despite the fact they later changed their views. Perhaps putting a side-note saying that the band later changed their views should be added, but that's it. This article is a historical look at the Nazi Punk (i.e. Racist Punk) subculture and white washing certain band's histories isn't right and should not be tolerated. I'm re-adding them.

 * I'm not trying to whitewash history. My only concern is factual accuracy. Terms like Nazism and Fascism have specific meanings, and should not be thrown around lightly to describe all white racists.Spylab 22:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

 * Well, I can certainly understand that. It's just that in the punk scene, "Nazi punk" tends to be a blanket term referring to racist punks in general. It may not necessarily be accurate, but it serves its purpose on Wikipedia as well because if we didn't use it we'd have to make several pages all referring to specific forms of racist punk ideology. I think the first paragraph is sufficient in clarifying any questions someone might have on it's meaning up front.

Greece

 * i erased Greece from the list of countries who featured notable nazi punk bands: they have mainly the RAC type, more political/Skinhead

Greece did have somewhat of a nazi punk scene in the 1980's. It did die out for a while, however they now have a reemerging nazi punk scene and feature an upcoming nazi punk band, ChaoSS Hellas, thus they will be re-included in the list of countries.

References needed to prove bands are Nazi punk
I'm going to delete the band list section because there are no references proving that the bands are Nazi punks. I will merge a few of the band names into the main article and add a citation request for those bands. Spylab 12:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I think you should re-add the band section. I'm new to the site, but I could cite references for most of the bands that were mentioned before this article was changed. BoredAndViolent

If enough reliable references (see Reliable sources) are added, then it would make sense to re-create a separate band list section. However it isn't academically correct to have a list of bands that are simply rumoured to be Nazi punks, without solid evidence to back up that label. Spylab 16:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree. I have enough references right now that would warrant a band section. I've been researching this phenomena for a while now and I've been adding all that I know. So I propose you put back the band section as it was and we'll keep all the bands I can cite references for on it. What do you say? BoredAndViolent

 * Hey I'm a NSPunk from Hellas and i've heard some NSPunk stuff from Southland in fact my cousin lives there (Chile)and someone added a band called "the walkirias" but their web site has expired,(it was a fotolog I guess) if you check the external link it has nothing,so i will delete that band from the list. (sorry if my english isin't good enough) —Preceding unsigned comment added by H8terror (talk • contribs) 07:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Were always around?
I don't think that is a correct assessment. At the very start of the punk rock movement actual nazis weren't always around. However, Nazi regelia and imagery was first worn as part of the subculture by the Bromley Contingent, (previously some of the band's had used the imagery for shock value, the New York Dolls at one point or another have dressed as Nazis and Communists for example) but they weren't actually followers of the policital ideology of Nazism. - Deathrocker 17:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Did you not read the article? Verifiable organized Nazi punks have existed since 1978 (see Punk Front), so I'm sure actual racist and Nazi-sympathetic Punks existed prior to '78 (as seen with Ian Stuart in '77) as well. This article clearly points out the differences between punks who used Nazi imagery as a shock statement and those who are actually believers in aspects of its doctrine. This isn't some new phenomena at all. Not to mention the fact very few people consider pre-'77 bands like the New York Dolls punk in the first place.-BoredAndViolent

Punk rock started before 1977, very few educated/knowledgeable people think otherwise... 77 was just its peak. Ian Stuart and Skrewdriver were not a Nazi orientated band in 1977, All Skrewed Up has nothing to do with that. (read the article on Skrewdriver) That became a part of Donaldson's shtick far later. (namely recordings in the 1980s) - Deathrocker 17:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The bands people sometimes wrongly label "Punk" prior to '77 were really just Rock'n'Roll bands that influenced the music genre. What pre-'77 band ever called their music "Punk Rock"? Skrewdriver clearly were an apolitical band in 1977, I never suggested otherwise, but as seen with Ian Stuart's own interviews later on in life, he (but none of the other original members) held racist beliefs at that very same time, he simply didn't incorporate them into his music until the band changed into a Skinhead Oi! outfit in the early '80s. -unsigned

Sex Pistols formed in 1975, The Clash started in 1976 and The Damned formed in 1976. See the punk rock article for more information about punk rock before 1977. Spylab 11:09, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Regardless of the specific year in which Punk started, it's important to bare in mind that there is no general consensus of when exactly Punk "officially" started; It's a highly debatable issue that people continue to argue to this day, just as a Punk ideology is. Therefore, I see no reason to request a citation of Nazi punks existing prior to 1977 just in order to state "they may have existed since the beginning of the subculture". One could affirm as much considering a verifiable Nazi punk organization existed in 1978 and the main thing is we're not saying the existed, for sure, prior to '78.-unsigned

 * What a bizarre thing to say. Even one year is long time in terms of youth subcultures. Wikipedia articles are supposed to be accurate and backed up by reliable sources. So far there is only verification that the Punk Front existed in 1978. Nobody has provided reliable evidence that Nazi punks existed right from the beginning of punk rock. Wikipedia is not for guessing and assuming. Spylab 11:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, but my point is: When did Punk start? Nobody has a clear answer on that one question alone, it's been debated for years and probably always will be. Just because you can find one source that says it started in 1975, I can assure you can find one that says it started in 1977. Who's to say it didn't start in '78? I'm sure you can even find a source stating that. It's a very opinionated issue that no one will see eye-to-eye on. Most people would agree it at least started in the mid or late 1970s, so I think that is reason enough to keep the line without a citation request. I mean honestly though, do you really believe there were no racist Punks before 1978? Do you think the Punk Front made those individuals racist in the first place? The whole concept of Punk is subject to personal interpretation since there was never a rule book or set ideology, so naturally any article is going to be somewhat from a biased point of view, the trick is to minimize it. I think so far, this article has done a fair job at it. However, I think people's emotions for the disdain they have of this faction are getting in the way of keeping this article fair and accurate.

 * I repeat, Sex Pistols formed in 1975, The Clash started in 1976 and The Damned formed in 1976. They are three of the main British punk bands, and nobody with an ounce of credibility would deny that they are punk bands. See the punk rock article for more information about punk rock before 1977. Facts are facts. You can't change history based on your opinion and emotions. Wikipedia articles must be based on reliable sources.Spylab 23:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I NEVER said that those bands were not Punk! You missed my point entirely and said nothing at all to debate it. How is it a "fact" the Punk subculture formed in 1975 just because an ever changing Wikipedia article says so? Just yesterday I read it say that the origins of Punk date back as early as "the mid-late '70s" and now today it's saying "the early to mid 1970s". Like I said, you can post sources that claim Punk formed in '75 and I can post sources stating otherwise, its a highly debatable & opinionated topic. I won't repeat the rest of my post considering you didn't even bother countering my points.

I never claimed that 1975 is the exact year that punk started. I was merely destroying your argument that perhaps punk didn't start until 1977 or 1978. I was also shooting down your argument that we really don't need references proving claims, and that wee can just guess or make things up. Also, how about you sign up for a Wikipedia account and sign your comments? Spylab 12:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The problem is you destroyed nothing because your sources are opinionated in themselves. It's impossible to destroy my claim because, as I said, the entire concept of Punk in general (let alone the specific year it started) varies entirely on personal opinion. For example, some people call Green Day a Punk band, some don't, so who is right on the issue? It depends on what YOU believe. You can literally find hundreds, if not thousands, of sources, some saying they are and others saying they aren't. So what would you write on the issue? Many people don't believe Punk really started until the DIY ethic became part of the music scene far after '75 or '77, so are they wrong for thinking that? I also never stated that we don't need any references, I simply said that the particular line in question doesn't because the line can be verified either way and any source stating a claim like that is going to be opinionated anyway. I'll sign up for Wikipedia when I'm good and ready to, thanks.

BLACK FLAG/Minor Threat
I know the bands are left wing, but what was the significance and meaning of the songs `White Minority' (Black Flag) and `Guilty of Being White' by Minor Threat??
 * I can't speak to "White Minority" by Black Flag, but I know that "Guilty of Being White" was not meant to be an attack on other races. I think it may have been in bad taste, but it wasn't meant to be racist. Ian said in an interview that it had to do with how he was beat up a lot when he was younger by African-Americans because of the fact that he was white and because of the things whites had done (and still do) to non-whites. He was trying to say it is just as screwed up to attack someone for being white as it is to attack someone for being black. He also got pissed when Slayer covered the song and changed the last line of the song to "guilty of being right." Ian is definitely not a Nazi, or even a white supremacist or nationalist or anything like that. They even talk about the song on the Minor Threat page here.  Ungovernable Force  Got something to say? 08:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Wait, here is ''Guilty of Being White on songmeanings.net and here is White Minority. See the comments for what others have said. It looks like White Minority is supposed to be an attack on racists, but again, it's not very clearly written and it's easy to see it being interpreted as racist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Ungovernable Force (talk • contribs) 08:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

"White Minority" was an attack on the Orange County racists of the time, noting the increasing minority population and basically fantasizing about the fear that these racists would feel when they were suddenly thrust into minority status and had to face treatment like they'd meted out. It's a vein of first person punk satire often used by the Dead Kennedys ("Too Drunk to F**k", "California Uber Alles") or Flag themselves ("Six Pack", "TV Party"). 130.154.0.250 19:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that Black Flag's "White Minority" was sung by Ron Reyes (aka Chavo Pederast), a Puerto Rican -- making the ironic intent clear. Aryder779 (talk) 22:31, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Nazi flirtations in rock prior to punk
I think the article lacks historical perspective. It appears to imply that punk rock invented this idea. Who drummer Keith Moon was noted to have walked around Jewish neighborhoods wearing Nazi uniforms. David Bowie was reported to give what appeared to be a Nazi salute to a crowd. John Lennon proposed that Hitler appear on the Beatles Sgt. Pepper album cover. The liner notes of Rhino's Nuggets CD box set report that 60's garage band Gonn performed while "hanging a Nazi flag behind them at a church gig." I think the above mentioned facts should be incorporated into the article to give some historical perspectiveSmiloid 21:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

 * This article is specifically about Nazi punk, not flirtations with Nazi imagery by other types of rock musicians. This article already diverts from the real topic enough by mentioning flirtations with Nazi imagery by non-Nazis within the punk subculture.Spylab 22:59, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I deleted the section called References to Nazism within main punk subculture because it diverts from the topic of the article and confuses the issue. Spylab 23:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Asians
As someone who has done quite a bit of research on the Nazi punk phenomena, there is little to no evidence to suggest that Nazi punk music has ever had lyrics referring to their hatred of Asians. However, their hatred towards people engaging in multiracial relationships (what they call "race traitors") and their offspring (multiracial people) has been written about many times. A few Nazi Skinhead bands have written about Asians, but I found no Nazi punk bands who have done so. Also, many Nazi punk bands have written negatively towards non-White Latin Americans, mestizos (whom are multiracial people) & Amerindians. Thus I feel it's more appropriate to include multiracial people under the minority group section than Asians.

The Nazi punk & skinhead movements even has a place amongst some non-White Asians. A quick search on the subject will return bands and pictures of those individuals. According to them, you don't have to be "White" in order to be a National Socialist or racist. Even non-punk and skinhead people have been getting into these politics. See: www.nsjap.jp & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism_Association_%28Taiwan%29

Also, when Nazi bands sing about "immigrants" that often includes Asians. The old "paki-bashing" skins who influenced the National Front certainly made a distinction between themselves and Asians. Punk Front bands weren't just talking against Irish immigrants, they were talking about Pakis! Pakis are still considered Asian in most circles. Just because Asians can be found being racist doesn't mean that other racists are not racist against them! --Chicagomusicfan (talk) 12:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you serious in saying "Even non-punk and skinhead people have been getting into these politics. "??!! THE NAZIS CAME LONG BEFORE THE PUNKS!

Yes, but being anti-immigration is a far cry from specifically saying "I hate Asians". I mean, can you point to one song by a Nazi punk band which specifically singles out Asians and express hatred toward them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.91.80.40 (talk) 19:30, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Bonehead not Skinhead
It should be made clear in the article throughout that it is bonehead related and not the mod/northern soul/reggae skinhead (ie - real skins). Calling these people "skinheads" would be like calling Avril Lavigne hardcore.- The Daddy 09:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Ummm... Perhaps you missed the fact that this article is not pertaining to Skinheads but to Punks...

Promotional links
Feel free to discuss the suitability of these promotional links, but do not reinsert them at this time, as I deem them to violate policy. Thanks. El_C 11:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

 * The main problem here is that these links are used as references, and they do not meet standards for reliable sources. I note most of these are blogs, and myspace? Some of these, can possibly stay, provided its in the external links sections, and others if they are from the organization/group itself, and references a claim that they would be suitable to support, i.e. about themselves (provided its properly qualified as so). But as references we have to stick to reliable sources, which these fail. I am going to revert and restore El_C's changes, but I hope that before restoring them again we can come to an agreement here first and reach some kind of compromise based on WP policies.Giovanni33 22:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Actually, unless another sysop over-rules me, this isn't open to compromise and only reliable sources are to be added. You may treat the re-insertion of these promotional links as vandalism (i.e. not subject to your revert restrictions). El_C 06:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

RAC
I edited that bit. Nazi skinheads who play music similar to hardcore, Oi! or heavy metal are considered part of a separate genre called White Power Oi! or else Hatecore, not necessarily Rock Against Communism. While yes, most RAC is White Power and soemtimes NS, "Hatecore" and simply "White Power Music" are the main terms used in the scene for racist Skinhead music. RAC was a specific organization / concert series in the 1970s/UK, and it did spurn a "subgenre", but Musically, the RAC genre is mostly comprised of Oi!, punk rock, southern rock and rock and roll. That includes punk, so Nazi Punk can be RAC as well, and Nazi skinheads can play punk, oi, or metal and still not be RAC. The issue is, bands must identify as RAC to be RAC! --Chicagomusicfan (talk) 12:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Highly common leftist themes/"Leftist" Enemies?
"...highly common leftist themes in most other punk music." Surely that sort of punk music is very much a minority subset of punk as a whole, rather than 'most other punk music'? Scatterkeir (talk) 17:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but including "leftists" in general as a "perceived enemy" of Nazi punks is really a stretch.. Certainly, anti-Hippy and Communist themes are abundant, but do they really set the standard of Leftism in general? Many right-wingers claim Nazism is a left-wing (see "Liberal Fascism") ideology itself and I've heard of plenty of "Nazi punks" associating with Socialism, Syndicalism and Anarchism (see: NaziPunk.8k.com/ideology.html), therefore I really think this should be edited. -unsigned by anonymous IP Nov. 22

 * Nazism is not a left-wing ideology, and when Nazi punks yell about "commies", they generally mean all types of leftists and anti-racists, not just people who specifically call themselves communists.Spylab (talk) 04:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

How can you say they "generally mean all types of leftists?" Where is your source for this statement? How can racism or anti-racism be put on either side of the political spectrum? Last time I checked, biology and it's interpretations is not politically partisan..

For example, just check out lyrics to Nazi punk songs like Forward Area's "America" and you tell me that song is right-wing.. Read their own words about politics: http://www.folkandfaith.com/articles/forward-area.shtml (mind you, they were interviewed by an Anarchist website as well, so much for being "right-wing" partisans).

Further, for you to claim Nazism is right-wing is really simply your point of view. There are many historians and economists which would entirely disagree with you. Just check the Nazism wikipedia articles talk section to see for yourself how debated this "right-wing" theory is. You're threatening to make this article in your POV without any sources to back up your claims. Now, if your want to specifically add "Communists," "anti-racists" etc. that would be more justifiable than "leftists" in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.91.80.40 (talk) 19:18, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

NSP
Hi, I am a user who intends to offer Spanish-language information on NSP (Nazi Punk, Punk or National Socialist). The information below will give you from the following page:

History: It's commonly heard and far too easy for today's so-called “scene” to scornfully claim that racialist punks are some kind of new and undesirable bizarre occurrence, considering how whitewashed and biased the history of punk has been thus far. However, the truth, as you will learn, proves to be quite contrary.

The history of the racialist punk movement can arguably be traced back to as early as 1977, with the birth of the punk subculture in England. However, the first verifiable evidence of the racialist punk movement was a youth division of the British National Front that formed in 1978 called the "Punk Front”. It started off as a mere political and music related ‘zine, but due to its rapid success it quickly turned into a organized group and wave of bands with a considerably significant following, particularly in Leeds, England.

The bands who partook in this movement included: The Dentists, Homicide, The Ventz and The Raw Boys. These ‘Punk Front’ bands played the first Rock Against Communism shows the National Front organized, which took place in 1979. Shortly after those early RAC concerts, the Punk Front had disbanded for various reasons (which included the incarceration of several members of the group).

By the early 1980s the National Front started to look towards the skinhead subculture to carry on the youth underground-based movement it had started since the punk scene had unfortunately began to get highly infiltrated by Marxists and various other politically correct followers. Despite the fact that skinheads had become the forerunners of the racialist music movement, there were still many punks to be found throughout Europe who still freely associated and contributed to the White Nationalist movement, even though they were in the minority.

In the United States the 1980s saw a large emergence of racial punk crews nationwide, as well as a number of bands. Areas like New York City and Los Angeles were home to some of the largest amounts of racialist punks in the country. They could be found at nearly every show and in various places they were even the majority of the local scenes. It wasn't until the later part of the decade that politically correct/anti-racist “punks" (with aid from SHARPs) started to blacklist Nationalistic beliefs within the scene and thus the numbers of openly racialist punks unfortunately started to steadily decline.

This gradual reduction in the amount of racialist punks internationally carried on throughout the ‘90s and the increase of multiracial and fashion-orientated people within the subculture quickly skyrocketed.

Today we're in the midst of seeing of large reemergence of the racialist punk movement. Bands, crews and individuals are being seen all over the world taking part in this massive revival. This can mainly be attributed to the dissatisfaction of many individuals in the scene today who are just overwhelmingly tired of the irrationally politically correct direction the scene has continued to take. Therefore, we may see the racialist punk movement at the largest point it has ever been in within only a few years.

Ideology RACE
 * Racialism: The belief that human beings can be scientfically classified (genetically & anthropologically) into distinct races and that those races must be preserved with the utmost importance.

Some racialists believe in a racial hierarchy, in which certain races are thought to be physically and intellectually superior to others and thus have a higher worth than the so-called “inferior races". Others reject that notion and believe racial superiority to be an inaccurate concept and only seek to preserve genetic integrity and human biological diversity.

 * White Nationalism: White Nationalism advocates a racial definition of national identity, as opposed to multiculturalism.

White Nationalism isn’t a defined political ideology, it’s generally more of a social outlook/philosophy. The followers of this philosophy have a wide range of varying political affiliations.

 * Pan-Europeanism: The belief that all Europeans are predominantly of a similar genetic composition and need to unify under their common racial ancestry in order to secure the existence of their race.

 * Pan-Aryanism: The belief that the Aryan (or “White”) race extends beyond the traditional borders of modern day Europe. Pan-Aryanists believe that there are still pure/unmixed Aryan minorities within parts of North Africa and the Middle East and that these Aryans have a shared historical, biological and cultural link with European Aryans.

POLITICS
 * National Socialism: A political and social ideology originally created in Germany in the early 20th century by Anton Drexler & Gottfried Feder. The ideology is a fusion between non-Marxist Socialism and racial Nationalism. National Socialism is uniquely defined by its strong state centralization, anti-internationalism, social merit system, racial hygiene laws and anti-Zionism.

Those who believe in the economic policy & racial stance of the ideology but favor a more democratic and decentralized state role (as the Strasser brothers advocated) sometimes refer to themselves as “Social Nationalists”.

 * Nationalism: The belief that the social welfare of ones own nation and/or people should always be considered first and foremost by the government while international issues should rarely be concerned with by the state.

 * Fascism: An ideology originating in early 20th century Italy which combined syndicalist economics with a strong state centralization, militarism and Nationalism.

 * Falangism: Falangism (not to be confused with the later reactionary Christian "Phalanx" movement) was a revolutionary political ideology which was formed in early 20th century Spain by José Antonio Primo de Rivera, though Ramiro Ledesma Ramos' National Syndicalist Union movement was also instrumental in influencing Falangist philosophy.

Falangism is characterized by strong state centralization, syndicalist economics and racial nationalism.

 * National Anarchism: An ideology which combines traditional Anarchism with Nationalist doctrine. Most followers favor distributist economics and seek to live in completely decentralized/stateless & racially homogenous small communities.

 * Third Positionism: Sometimes called the “Third Way”, is any variety or combination of philosophies and ideologies which seek a National Revolutionary alternative to Communism and Capitalism.

My English is not great, but that does not prevent me from providing information. I hope you find my input was useful. --Nsuy1993 (talk) 01:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality and Emphasis
This article portrays punk in a way that fails to make a clear distinction between nazi punk and other forms of punk. Given punk's clear and verifiable leftist and anti-racist ideas, I'm concerned that this articles portrays punk unfairly negatively. Nazi punk is a minority, fringe element of punk, and that needs to be made clearer. WP:POV states that in articles about minority view points, the majority viewpoint should be discussed in away that the difference is clearly shown. This article doesn't do that, and I am adding a undue weight/emphasis tag.

"In articles specifically about a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space. However, these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. Specifically, it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view. In addition, the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader can understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained. How much detail is required depends on the subject. For instance, articles on historical views such as Flat Earth, with few or no modern proponents, may briefly state the modern position, and then go on to discuss the history of the idea in great detail, neutrally presenting the history of a now-discredited belief. Other minority views may require much more extensive description of the majority view to avoid misleading the reader. Wikipedia:Fringe theories and the NPOV FAQs provide additional guidance."-WP:POV Skrelk (talk) 04:24, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You don't define punk. Sucks to be you. Kyz2 (talk) 22:48, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Picture of Chaos 88 members
Somebody uploaded this picture to wikipedia: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tank2015.jpg The two men on the right are members of the Nazi punk band Chaos 88. Would this photo be an appropriate image for this wiki page? The man on the left in the photo is an unrelated MMA fighter, so he would need to be cropped out of the photo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.0.49.88 (talk) 05:57, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Request for comment regarding how to represent the Nazi symbol
Please feel free to participate at Talk:Swastika. Binksternet (talk) 21:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

References?
Does anyone know what exactly needs more sources/citations? I would be happy to improve this article, but I checked the sources. Rahmspinat (talk) 05:00, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Nazi punk


text:
She's the One (1996 film)

She's the One is a 1996 American romantic comedy film written and directed by New York actor and director Edward Burns. It stars Jennifer Aniston and Cameron Diaz. The film features one of Tom Petty's few movie soundtracks and is named after the Bruce Springsteen song of the same name.

Plot
Irish Catholic Mickey Fitzpatrick is a NYC taxi driver, unhappy over his ex-fiancée Heather's infidelity. His brother, Francis, is a Wall Street stock investor married to Renee, though she is frustrated by his lack of desire for sexual relations – not knowing he is having an affair with Heather.

On weekends, Mickey and Francis visit their parents on Long Island. Their father, Frank, is old-school, low-key, and sexist, always telling Mickey and Francis what to do, yet also advising them to always push to succeed.

Driving his cab, Mickey picks up Hope, an NYU art student headed to the airport. Clicking immediately, she asks him to drive her to New Orleans, they fall head over heels and impulsively marry the next day, returning to NYC two days later to tell Francis and Renee. Francis is upset, mostly because he was not asked to be best man.

Mickey moves in with Hope but soon becomes disillusioned with her bohemian lifestyle, including frequent power cuts in their ramshackle apartment. Francis grows concerned that he is being unfair to Heather by continuing to stay with Renee. At the same time, Renee's Italian-American family, mostly her younger sister Molly, suggests the problem with Francis' lack of interest is that he may be gay, so she asks Mickey and Frank to confront him. He denies being gay but admits to being unfaithful.

Francis belittles Mickey for the lack of forward progress in his life with Hope. Francis also argues with Heather about her ongoing sexual relations with a wealthy old man, "Papa". When Mickey picks up Heather as a fare, he goes to her apartment to retrieve his TV. She implies that he wants more than just the TV from her, but he does not reciprocate, chastising her for the infidelity that ended their engagement and for her time as a call girl to pay her way through college. Throughout it all, Frank offers more egotistical advice to them— only to be devastated when he learns, on a fishing trip with his priest, that his religious wife has not been to Mass in months.

On a visit to Heather's, Francis learns about her meeting with Mickey. He shows up at his brother's to ask him if he had sex with her. Later, Mickey discovers she is who Francis is having the affair with. The revelation escalates to an argument at their parents', leading Frank to strap boxing gloves on them, with Mickey winning on the first punch.

Francis finally tells Renee about his affair and files for divorce. When Mickey finds out he intends to marry Heather, he tells Francis Heather had been a prostitute, giving Francis cold feet.

Hope informs Mickey they will need to move to Paris in a month if she is accepted into art school there. Already unsure of leaving New York to join her when meeting Connie, Hope's co-worker at a neighborhood bar, who claims to have had a "special relationship" with Hope before the marriage (strongly implying a lesbian romance). Mickey reacts poorly, leading Hope to say she is unsure if he should come to Paris with her after all.

Due to Francis' sudden indecision over marriage, Heather marries Papa. When he threatens to tell Papa that she was a prostitute, Heather tells him that Papa was "her best customer". He then calls Renee in hopes of getting back together with her, but she is already in a relationship with Scott Sherman, a family acquaintance whom Francis previously called a fatso geek, while Renee had pointed out that he was shy and sweet and nicer than him.

Mickey and Francis meet with Frank at his house, and he tells them their mother just left him for a hardware store owner. She has been sleeping with him when supposedly at church. Frank apologizes to his sons for giving them bad advice about life and love, as his own wife was cheating. The three men go out fishing, aware that despite the failure of their love lives, they will always have each other. As they prepare the motorboat to cast off, Mickey realizes he must try to talk with Hope before she leaves for Paris. Surprised, he learns Frank has arranged a special guest – Hope. She asks to drive the boat, but Frank, who never allowed a woman on his boat before, says it is too soon for that.

Cast

 * Edward Burns as Mickey Fitzpatrick
 * Mike McGlone as Francis 'Franny' Fitzpatrick
 * Cameron Diaz as Heather Davis
 * Jennifer Aniston as Renee Fitzpatrick
 * Maxine Bahns as Hope
 * John Mahoney as Mr. Fitzpatrick
 * Leslie Mann as Connie
 * Amanda Peet as Molly
 * Frank Vincent as Ron
 * Anita Gillette as Carol
 * Malachy McCourt as Tom
 * Robert Weil as Mr. DeLuca
 * Beatrice Winde as Older Woman
 * Tom Tammi as Father John
 * Raymond De Marco as Doorman
 * Ron Farrell as Scott Sherman

Reception
Critical reception of the film was mixed. Review aggregation website Rotten Tomatoes gives the film a score of 62% based on reviews from 52 critics, with an average rating of 5.9/10. The consensus states: "A relationship comedy that errs on the side of slick, She's the One is a perfunctory study of machismo from a very male perspective." Critics were, overall, won by the performances of John Mahoney, Jennifer Aniston and Cameron Diaz: Aniston and Mahoney brought a "kind of solid professionalism" according to Janet Maslin and Lisa Schwarzbaum. Chris Hicks said, "Better, however, are Diaz, lending charm to a character who could have been quite unsympathetic, and especially Aniston, whose decent, trusting character is quite appealing. Best of all, however, is John Mahoney, hilarious as the bombastic patriarch of the Fitzpatrick clan, who refers to his sons as 'sisters' and calls them 'Barbara' or 'Dorothy' while offering ill-advised sarcasm in place of fatherly wisdom." For Louise Keller, "Burns, Diaz, Bahns and Aniston inject an energy and charisma of their own, and they're fun to watch." Paul Fischer found that Diaz and Aniston are "both in fine form". Alison Macor said, "As Francis' wife Renee, Aniston provides one of the few bright spots in She's the One. Playing Renee as the wry voice of sanity among the rest of the characters, Aniston shows that she's the one who makes this film somewhat enjoyable."

Critics were less forgiving of Maxine Bahns. Mick LaSalle said about her, "The graduate student, Hope, is played by Maxine Bahns, Burns' real-life girlfriend, who was also his love interest in McMullen. Throw a rock out the window, and it's sure to hit someone with more acting talent than Bahns. She can't say a line without it ringing false and keeps smiling nervously, like a shy person at a party. In a way, it's rather sweet that Burns keeps casting Bahns. But She's the One would have been much improved had Burns given Jennifer Aniston the Bahns role. Instead, Aniston is wasted here as the unloved wife of Mickey's callous brother, Francis (Mike McGlone of McMullen). She looks great, but all she gets to do is whine and smoke, and she all, but disappears two-thirds of the way into the film."

Soundtrack
Songs and Music from the Motion Picture "She's the One" is the ninth studio album by American rock band Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, released in August 1996. The album served as the soundtrack for the film.

Songs and Music From the Motion Picture "She's the One" peaked at number 15 on the Billboard 200 albums chart and was certified gold by the RIAA in December 1996. The track "Walls (Circus)" peaked at number 69 on the Billboard Hot 100 and number 6 on the Mainstream Rock Tracks chart. "Climb That Hill" also peaked at number 6 on the Mainstream Rock Tracks chart, while "Change the Locks" peaked at number 20.

Home video
In 2000, Fox Home Entertainment released "Stories From Long Island: Three Films by Edward Burns" ($70), a DVD set which included The Brothers McMullen (1995), She's the One and No Looking Back (1998).

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: She's the One (1996 film)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Game Stars

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE. Postdlf 00:25, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Game Stars
Non-notable small forum that has 19 members. Google found just one link from other domains to this. jni 05:41, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:56, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per jni. Dcarrano 06:29, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete non notable forum. JamesBurns 08:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete non-notable forum in the extreme.- Mgm|(talk) 08:42, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - for reasons cited above.--Bhadani 14:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as per above... "Butts, cunts and boobs?" 24.62.216.200
 * Speedy Delete -- It is clearly an advert. I placed a speedy delete tag on it some time ago, and it was removed by the person who created the article.  I wonder what part of "but do not remove this notice from an article that you have created yourself." these folks have difficulty understanding? --Mysidia 20:54, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Does not meet standard for forum inclusion (1K members).  Almafeta 07:39, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Talk:Psalm 104

Wrong Image
I believe that the image "Psalm 104 in Fronhofen Parish window" would refer to Psalm 105, which is psalm 104 of the Vulgate. The Latin text "constituit eum dominum domus suae" definitely is verse 21 of the next psalm. Rolf-Peter Wille (talk) 12:38, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

WHY THE USE KJV?
Kindly, there are more modern version. The use of KJV is archaic and insensitive. It is annoying and repulsive. Honestly!

I believe there is enough additional material about this particular Psalm that could be added to this article to warrant keeping it in its own article, rather than redirecting it to a related article. Wesley 05:43, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Drop text
It is proposed on Talk:Psalms to drop the text of psalms from the individual psalm articles. If you wish to weigh in, please do so there. Tb (talk) 21:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed Some Subjective Wording
I removed the phrase "the psalm is so beautiful" from the introductory paragraph, although I kept the (unsourced) quote from Herder. The deleted phrase is clearly subjective and un-encyclopedic. Although I suppose it could be rephrased along the lines of "has a reputation for beauty", although that would definitely require a source to back it up. Gaijin Ninja (talk) 12:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

"Hebrew name"
I removed from the header:
 * "Hebrew תהילים פרק קד"

This was presented as the "Hebrew name of the psalm". For a moment I thought this psalm had a real Hebrew name because it is so important, and I tried to make sense of קד "to bow". Of course, it turns out that קד is just for ק"ד, i.e.  "104" in Hebrew numerals. Very ingenious. Instead of fixing it by making the numeral explicit, I just removed it. Some people seem to think an article associated with a ceratin culture must in any case give a translation of the title in all conceivably related languages. E.g. Demographics of Israel (Hebrew: דמוגרפיה של ישראל). This is of course nonsense. We should only give a proper name in a relevant language if it is indeed a proper name. This applies here especially because the Masoretic numbering was introduced by the Masoretes in around the 9th century and bears no intrinsic relation to the original text, it is just a modern, or in this case as it happens medieval, convention.  --dab (𒁳) 07:47, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Parallel to Akhenaten
I'm not going to add it in myself, but I will mention that scholars debate the a possible influence of Akhenaten's Hymn to the Sun on Psalm 104. See John Day's chapter in the book Jewish and Christian Approaches to the Psalms: Conflict and Convergence for this claim, where he also says scholars are not sure what to make of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.181.61 (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Added new citation for Herder quote
I wanted to find a good citation for the J.G. Herder quote on studying Hebrew to learn the beauty of Psalm 104, but my search hasn't helped me find anything about a book of Jewish quotations for solid text. It'll do for now, but if someone else could find a more authoritative source for the Herder quote and wants to add a citation next to mine, I'd appreciate it. User:Sidney Stencil 22:58, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Format error?
In the verse 34 in Hebrew is possibly a format error (left intend, bold). Grimes2 (talk) 09:26, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Ask El C. I don't know about significance in Hebrew. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:41, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Oops. . El_C 10:20, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Psalm 104


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Slightly Damned

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE. Postdlf 00:36, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Slightly Damned
Link spam for a nonnotable webcomic. Google estimates 28 unique hits for "Slightly Damned" webcomic. Delete. Wile E. Heresiarch 05:44, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Alexa 423,371 + < 100 strips in archive = fails both WP:COMIC proposals.  Dcarrano 06:09, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, non-notable web comic. —Stormie 10:38, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable. -- BD2412 talk 17:55, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Does not meet webcomic guidelines. Calling it "link spam" doesn't seem warranted, however; this seems to be a good-faith, if misguided, effort.   — Gwalla | Talk 21:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Talk:Chowchilla, California

how many miles are in a block?

Whaaaat?
I'm sorry, Jim "Soni" Sonnefeld from Hootie + the Blowfish kidnapped kids? Are you sure about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.248.248.70 (talk) 17:39, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment
Chowchilla has two prisons for women, housing about 6700 inmates.

Like many cities in California's central valley, it is currently undergoing a housing boom.

- Regarding "A copy of this book was in the Chowchilla public library; police theorized that this was the source of the real-life kidnappers' inspiration."

The kidnappers were not from Chowchilla, why would the presence of the book in Chowchilla's library be relevant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.191.88.85 (talk) 05:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Kinda of Sad
I think it is sad that the people working this page have put the "1976 Kidnapping" up at the top of the article. I wish someone would move it down, but I do not feel emboldened to do so, as a new Wikipedia editor. Middle Fork (talk) 18:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Chowchilla, California


text: User talk:209.161.5.194

title: User talk:209.161.5.194


text:
The Yakuza

The Yakuza is a 1974 neo-noir crime drama film directed by Sydney Pollack and starring Robert Mitchum, Ken Takakura and Brian Keith. The screenplay by Paul Schrader and Robert Towne is from a story by Schrader's brother, Leonard Schrader.

The film is about a retired American detective who returns to Japan after decades away in order to rescue his friend's daughter, kidnapped by the eponymous crime syndicate.

Plot
Retired detective Harry Kilmer is called upon by an old friend, George Tanner. Tanner has been doing business with a yakuza gangster, Tono, who has kidnapped Tanner's daughter to apply pressure in a business deal involving the sale of guns. Tanner hopes that Kilmer can rescue the girl using his Japanese connections.

Kilmer and Tanner had been Marine MPs in Tokyo during the post-war occupation. Kilmer became aware of a woman, Eiko, who was involved in the black market so that she could procure penicillin for her sick daughter. Kilmer intervened on behalf of Eiko during a skirmish, saving her life. After they'd been living together, with Kilmer repeatedly asking Eiko to marry him, her brother Ken returned from an island where he'd been stranded as an Imperial Japanese soldier. Both outraged that she was living with his former enemy and deeply indebted to Kilmer for saving the lives of his (apparently) only remaining family, Ken disappeared into the yakuza criminal underground and refused to see or speak to his sister. Eiko, cautious to do nothing to offend Ken further, broke off contact with Kilmer. Before returning to the US, Kilmer bought Eiko a bar (with money borrowed from George Tanner) which she operates to this day, named Kilmer House in his honor. Kilmer has never stopped loving her.

Ken's debt to Kilmer, giri, is a lifelong obligation that traditionally can never be repaid. Tanner believes that Ken would therefore do anything for Kilmer, including rescuing Tanner's daughter. Traveling to Tokyo with Tanner's bodyguard Dusty, they stay at the home of another old military buddy named Oliver Wheat. Kilmer visits Eiko at the bar's closing time, seeking to find Ken. Eiko's feelings for Kilmer are clearly as strong as ever. He also becomes reacquainted with Eiko's daughter, Hanako, who is delighted to see Kilmer again. Eiko tells Kilmer that her brother can be found at his kendo school in Kyoto.

Kilmer travels by train to visit Ken at his kendo school. Ken is no longer a yakuza member, but will still help Kilmer. They find and free the girl. In so doing, Ken "takes up the sword" once again, attacking one of Tono's men to save Kilmer. This is an inexcusable intrusion by Ken in yakuza affairs. Contracts on both Ken's and Kilmer's lives are issued. Despite Tanner's protests, Kilmer insists on staying until the danger to Ken can be resolved. Eiko suggests he see Ken's brother Goro, a high-level legal counselor to the yakuza chiefs. Goro is unable to intercede due to his impartial role in yakuza society, but suggests Ken can remove the death threat by killing Tono with a sword. The only alternative is for Kilmer to kill Tono himself, by any means (as an outsider, he is not bound to use a sword). Because Kilmer is known to Goro as an unusual gaijin who understands and accepts Japanese values, he proposes that Kilmer now has an obligation to Ken.

After an attempt on Kilmer's life at a bathhouse, he learns that his old friend Tanner has taken out the contract on him. Tanner secretly is broke and owes Tono a huge debt. Dusty discloses that Tanner and Tono are business partners. During a violent attack on Ken and Kilmer in Oliver Wheat's house, Dusty is stabbed to death with a sword and Hanako is shot and killed.

Seeking advice again from Ken's brother, Goro advises them that they have no choice but to assassinate Tanner and Tono. This will embarrass the partners in the eyes of the yakuza. Goro discloses that he has a "wayward son" who has joined Tono's clan and asks that Ken protect him should he be caught in the battle. In private, Goro then discloses the shocking family secret to Kilmer that Eiko is not Ken's sister but his wife, and Hanako their only child. Kilmer comprehends the true meaning of Eiko and Ken's rift, and Ken's anguish at the death of Hanako, all brought about by his repeated intercessions in their lives.

Kilmer storms into Tanner's apartment and kills him, then joins Ken for a near-suicidal attack on Tono's residence. During a prolonged battle, after Ken kills Tono in the traditional way with a katana, Goro's son attacks them and Ken kills him in self-defense. Bearing the news to his brother, Ken moves to commit seppuku, but his brother pleads with him not to bring more anguish to their family. Instead, Ken performs yubitsume (the ceremonial yakuza apology by cutting off one's little finger).

Before leaving Japan, Kilmer visits with Ken at home and asks to speak to him formally. While Ken prepares tea, Kilmer quietly commits yubitsume, and when Ken enters the room, waits for him to be seated. Sliding the folded handkerchief that contains his finger to Ken, he says "please accept this token of my apology" for "bringing great pain into your life, both in the past and in the present." Ken accepts, and Kilmer asks that "if you can forgive me, then you can forgive Eiko," adding, "you are greatly loved and respected by all your family." Ken professes that "no man has a greater friend than Kilmer-san," and Kilmer, overcome by emotion, says the same of Ken. Their obligations now apparently resolved, Ken takes Kilmer to the airport, and both men bow formally to each other before parting.

Original script
Paul Schrader says the idea for the film came from a letter sent to him by his brother Leonard, who was then living in Japan; Leonard had left the U.S. when he received his military draft induction card and found work teaching English at a Japanese university, but frequently found himself with nothing to do when radical students shut down the campus and ended up spending a lot of time in yakuza-run bars. He had also been watching yakuza films and been impressed by the presence of Ken Takakura and the rituals involved. He thought there was an interesting film to be made about a Westerner who became involved in the yakuza to such an extent he would "make that ultimate sacrifice that is so foreign to a Westerner. That is the premise we started out on, trying to create a plot that would result in that situation."

Schrader told the idea to co-producer Mark Hamilburg, who liked it and paid for the brothers to write it. They spent two months watching films, in particular Toei films at a cinema in Los Angeles. "By the time I started writing, I was thinking like a Toei screenwriter," says Schrader. They wrote the script in an apartment in Venice over a month, between thanksgiving and Christmas. Schrader says Hamilburg saw the script "was going to be a hot item: the intensity with which people became interested was clear. He knew he was incapable of handling a high-level auction, so he went to Robin French" to handle the auction. French sold the script for $300,000.

Schrader later reflected: "It's hard to see now, looking back at a film which completely flopped, but it was a very commercial idea. It had a lot of commercial hooks plus a strong love story, rich characters, and an 'in' theme. It seemed to have all the elements for a rich, commercial action romance."

Robert Aldrich
Originally, Robert Aldrich was to direct. Aldrich later called it "one of the few pictures I really wanted to make" although he wanted changes made. "It was a terrible script, I thought, but a sensational idea. I said, 'If I'm going to make this picture, I'm going to turn this script upside down.' I saw it one particular way, and Paul didn't see it that way."

Aldrich thought his view might have prevailed if Lee Marvin had been cast in the lead, but Marvin disagreed with Warner Brothers over the size of the actor's fee. Instead they cast Robert Mitchum. Aldrich and Mitchum had worked together on The Angry Hills (1959), and the director said "I really considered him my friend, and I admired him. I think he's a brilliant actor - a strange, convoluted guy. I knew I wasn't his favorite director, but I never really knew he disliked me." The two of them met, and Mitchum told Warners afterwards he did not want to do the film with Aldrich. "Too bad," Aldrich said later. "I think it was possible to make a marvelous movie out of Yakuza."

Sydney Pollack
Sydney Pollack then became attached. Schrader says that Pollack wanted rewrites, notably a "softening" of the Harry character. Schrader says "I was fired, because I was unable to write what Sydney wanted. Sydney and I did not get along well, and he needed someone of his own age, whose work he respected, for feedback." Robert Towne came on to rewrite the film.

Robert Redford was also interested but then decided he was not old enough.

Filming
Pollack remarked in interviews on complications of filming in Japan, using Japanese crews and technicians, and adopting techniques and practices of Japanese filmmaking. Beyond language barriers, there were creative approaches that he synthesized into the film for being appropriate for the subject matter.

Soundtrack
The musical score for The Yakuza was composed by Dave Grusin. The score applies both Western and Eastern musical influences in what director Sydney Pollack described as a way that "felt and sounded Japanese without being too strange for western ears." A soundtrack album was released by Film Score Monthly in July 2005.

 * Track listing
 * 1) "Prologue" 2:42
 * 2) "Main Title" 3:17
 * 3) "Samurai Source" 2:03
 * 4) "Tokyo Return" 1:29
 * 5) "20 Year Montage" 3:28
 * 6) "Scrapbook Montage / Scrapbook Epilogue" 2:13
 * 7) "Kendo Sword Ritual / Alter Ego / Night Rescue / Amputation / Amputation (alternate)" 3:19
 * 8) "Man Who Never Smiles" 1:49
 * 9) "Tanner to Tono / Tono Bridge / The Bath" 2:27
 * 10) "Girl and Tea" 1:36
 * 11) "Pavane" 1:10
 * 12) "Get Tanner" 1:40
 * 13) "Breather / Final Assault" 4:43
 * 14) "The Big Fight" 5:51
 * 15) "No Secrets" 1:32
 * 16) "Sayonara" 2:02
 * 17) "Apologies" 2:09
 * 18) "Bows / End Title (Coda)" 1:46
 * 19) "Shine On" 9:47
 * 20) "Bluesy Combo" 6:20
 * 21) "20 Year Montage / Scrapbook Montage (film mix)" 5:00
 * 22) "End Title (film version)" 1:10
 * 23) "Only the Wind" 2:50

Box Office
Schrader says the reception to the film was "disastrous. It cost five million and brought back maybe a million and a half".

He felt the casting of Mitchum - which he was "very pleased with" - hurt the movie at the box office and if Redford had played the role "we probably would have made money".

Schrader felt Pollack "directed against the grain of the script. I wrote a violent, underworld film about blood, duty, and obligation. He made a sort of rich, romantic, transcultural film. Either of those films would be interesting if fully realized, but the final product fell between those two stools; neither film was made. It didn't satisfy the audience that came to see the hard gangster world, and it didn't satisfy the JEREMIAH JOHNSON audience - Sydney's audience - which came to see some poetic realism".

Schrader says his biggest regret from the film is that Takakura did not become an international star.

Critical
The film received mixed reviews at the time of release. On Rotten Tomatoes the film holds an approval rating of 58% based on 19 reviews.

Roger Ebert gave the film a mixed review, awarding it two-and-a-half stars out of four. While praising the characterization and the performances of Robert Mitchum and Ken Takakura, he criticized the plot as being somewhat difficult to follow and expressed concern over the level of violence: "it's for audiences that have grown accustomed over the last few years to buckets of blood, disembowelments and severed hands flying through the air. It's very violent, and the fact that the violence has been choreographed by a skilled director (Sidney Pollack, who made They Shoot Horses, Don't They?) just makes it all the more extreme." Lawrence Van Gelder of The New York Times wrote, "Although admirable for its understated contrast of hoary ritual with modern trappings, The Yakuza ... is also didactic. It is slowed by the need to instruct its audience in the way of the yakuza; it is marred in its early exposition by some impenetrable Japanese-accented English; it is burdened by the attenuation of an unexciting love interest (which Mitchum's character freely admits being too old for); and a couple of formidably important revelations are simply dropped in, as though no one had the time to plot them properly."

Arthur D. Murphy of Variety called it "a confused and diffused film which bites off more than it can artfully chew." Gene Siskel of the Chicago Tribune gave the film three stars out of four and called it "a special kind of gangster picture" with "an extremely complex story" and "stylish sword-fighting sequences. But don't confuse them with the boring karate chops so common in the Oriental sludge that typically fills our downtown theaters. The fighting in The Yakuza is more ritualistic and more meaningful because we know who is attacking whom and why."

Kevin Thomas of the Los Angeles Times thought that the film "suffers from a self-consciousness so stultifying it never really comes alive, its sense of reality (or lack of it) deriving from other movies instead of life itself."

Gary Arnold of The Washington Post called the film "such a clumsy combination of violence and inscrutability that the action becomes slightly laughable," further observing, "The right director for this slightly dubious material would have been Sam Peckinpah, who possesses both a taste and a flair for violence ... Sydney Pollack, the director chosen, gets sentimental about violent men, but he isn't on their wavelength."

Tony Rayns of The Monthly Film Bulletin wrote that Takakura "dominates the screen" with "his masterfully understated performance," concluding, "If The Yakuza is ultimately no more than a curious footnote to the Western exploitation of Oriental action movies, then it finds at least some self-justification in bringing a major film personality to a much wider audience."

Quentin Tarantino is an admirer of the film saying "for the last time as a lead, Mitchum was vibrantly alive... Takakura Ken's powerhouse performance, at the height of his fame, in this Hollywood Yakuza flick, seems even more of a triumph... the film's final coda, "The Finger cutting scene," is, for me, one of the great endings of any movie of its era. And arguably Mitchum's single greatest acting moment on film (as long as some fuckwad in the cinema doesn't laugh during it)."

title: The Yakuza


text:
SATS

SATS may refer to:

Transportation

 * SATS (company)
 * SATS Security Services
 * Small Aircraft Transportation System
 * Stansted Airport Transit System

Other uses

 * Blood oxygen saturation, known as "sats"
 * South African Theological Seminary
 * National Curriculum assessment, in the UK, colloquially known as Sats or SATs
 * Sats, short for satoshis, a unit of a bitcoin equivalent to 0.00000001

title: SATS


text:
User:DufFar

I just figured out how to work on Wikipedia the last time I was here my work wasn't saved so I just made an account in here to.

title: User:DufFar


text: Template:Tuolumne County, California

title: Template:Tuolumne County, California