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Talk:Siegfried (Soulcalibur)

Siegfried as Main Character?
What's the explanation for Siegy being the "main protagonist"? if anything, since he becomes Nightmare once he's consumed by Soul Edge, he seems like the main antagonist since Inferno is really a face-less boss character and Cervy was defeated. i'm not familiar enough with the back histories of all the characters to choose a main protagonist but it seems like Xianghua or Sophitia would fit the role. Bubbachuck 23:29, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, I would suggest that you click on the protagonist link then, because the description definitely fits, especially now that he has possession over both Soul Edge and Soul Calibur, and is guarding them heavily in a cathedral somewhere. The only time he can be described as the antagonist is when he is in the azure armor, but that wouldn't really go on the Siegfried page. At least I wouldn't put it there. And the main antagonist really is Inferno; he is the will of Soul Edge, but since he isn't getting his own page, it can't really be listed. Inferno is a lot more powerful than a faceless boss character. Sophitia and Xianghua are definitely key protagonists in their respective stories, but Siegfried is always clearly the chief character in his story at the time in which he doesn't have the azure armor on. Even his background is just as lengthy--if not more--as any other character, and that's before he even does anything; and once he starts doing things within the games' storylines, he accomplishes a lot. You have to notice that as soon as Nightmare is defeated and he becomes Siegfried again the first time, he is again thrust into the foreground for a whole second half to the Soul Calibur I storyline. --Shackleton (25 July 2005)

 * OK, read "protagonist" and i see your point now. Bubbachuck 02:36, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I seriusly disagree with Siegfried being the main protagonist. Surely he is the most evoled character along the history, but during SC1 and SC2, you could consider Siegfried being the antagist and so the main characters would be Kilik, Xianghua and Maxi. I know he is a great character and is even one of my favourites, but just because Siegfried had been given a great importance at SC3 doesn't make him the protagonist of the whole serie. (In fact, I'd bet that his rol will be much minor in SC4 if there is one) -Alexander

OK, this was enough. Let's put it simple: Games like Soul Calibur does NOT have main character or protagonist. In the game, you choose your character, you play with it, and that character is the protagonist of his/her own history, whenever the character is good or evil, it doesn't matter.

Inferno could be considered the Main Antagonist cause he has been the final boss for EVERY character during the first three games, and even came back for SC3: Arcade Edition, and has never been playable (Without hacking the game)

But Siegfried has no way a rol like that, so he is one more of the many characters, just like any other. Proclaming him the hero, protagonist or even main character is only subjective, so stop doing it. (Alexlayer 19:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC))

The soul series has not clearly defined who the protagonsit truly is, Siegfreid, Xianghua, and Sophitia are the most likly candidates for that position, considering Seigfreid's connections to Nightmare, I would consider Seigfreid a protagonist, but that is only my opinion, there are many contrasting ideas about it, for the time being don't add "this character is the protagonist" to any of the articles, it would be entirly speculative. BassxForte 20:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Siegfried is a penitent. That's a character who starts as an antagonist and becomes a protagonist. As for the main character is concerned, the main character of the Soul series is not a character but a weapon; Soul Edge. Siegfried is it's main host in the series though, and is the main character of SCIII (and imo SCII as Nightmare), but overall I would consider him the main character. Silver Fang 09:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

First of all, "Inferno" was infact a playable character in Soul Calibur(Refering to the first SC game, not the series in general). You could use him by beating the game with every character and then with Xianghua in her 3rd form. As for the whole "Main Protagonist/Antagonist" is. I'd have to say that the main protagonist changes almost every game. SB uses Cervantes. SC1 uses Nightmare. SC2 is a toss-up but Nightmare is the most likely(SC2 is the most toss-up among all the games when it comes to definition in my opinion). And SC3 has Zasalamel. If anything, the "Main Antagonist" would be either Souledge itself for motivating everyone to start with or Nightmare. Siegfried took the remaining Souledge from Cervantes in SB and became Nightmare. From then on he's been a pretty clear 'bad guy'. SC1 is undoubtable his main point of power. From there, SC2 he's regathering Souledge together. And SC3 he's chasing after Sieg for Souledge. SC4 seems to be using Nightmare as the main Antagonist from what I've seen so far also. But like I said, it's a toss-up. The "Main Protagonist" is abit easier. It changes each game. In Soulblade it was Sophitia, considering she's the one who ended up destroy one of the twin Souledge blades and killed Cervantes(With Taki's help). In Soul Calibur it was Xianghua with her mother's sword/Soul Calibur. Both have no real importance past that. Sophitia still tried to help out in SC1 though. SC2 she was SUPPOSED to be retired. And in SC3 she's only there becuase Tira tried to take her kids so she set out AGAIN after Souledge. Siegfried on the other hand, gained Souledge by the end of Soulblade, was pretty much eaten in SC(stuck inside Nightmare), Fought against Raphael and then sealed Souledge with Soul Calibur. From there he was PRETTY MUCH the main antagonist of SC3, if there was one. So from what I've seen, he's not an antagonist at all excluding SC3 and maybe SC4 if they're going for the whole Good/Soulcalibur/Siegfried VS Evil/Souledge/Nightmare. But I'd undoubtabley say he's the Main Character. It pretty much centers around him. SB:His quest of denial and for SoulEdge, SUCCEEDED and got Souledge. SC: His raise to power as Nightmare. SC2: His regathering of Souledge. SC3: He's protecting both Souledge and Soulcalibur. SC4: Carries Soulcalibur as his weapon. 67.11.46.168 14:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)Heartcard

With the release of Soul Calibur: Legends, I would dare say Siegfried is without a doubt the main character. SB: The story centers around Sophitia/Cervantes/and Siegfried, in the order of Protagonist/Antagonist/Secoundary Plot Character(Meaning he's the next most plot-involved character) SC:L centers around Siegfried, in some cases him being the only playable character. SC features Siegfried as Nightmare, being the main Antagonist. SC2: He's gathering SoulEdge back together. There isn't really any antagonist in SC2 as it's pretty undefined. SC3: The game pretty much centers around Siegfried as he is hiding both SoulCalibur and SoulEdge. I dare say Siegfried is the main character. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HeartCard (talk • contribs) 01:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Storytelling
Some of this seems more like storytelling than an encyclopedic article. Thoughts? -Raijinili 05:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

 * There're few who are interesting in answering our "thoughts" call, I bet this will not get too far...on topic, I think the same. I've thinking on re-writing it, removing over-detailed details and those subtitles (which I hate). So, if no one has objections, I'll do it. (Johnny Master 04:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)).

 * I'll revert once again. The original profile is not better because of the following:

1. Speculation (there's not official account of Kilik defeating Nightmare because he was distracted. Kilik defeating him, nothing more is said.) 2. Over-detailed information (there's no need to write detailed entry about Astaroth or Lizardman's defeat.) 3. Unchanged official info (as already done with Cassandra, the copy-and-paste must go) 4. Things said more than once (there's two instance referring to Siegfried's self-induced ideal of his father's killer). 5. Story-telling (as said above).

The sub-titles can stay, but the profile wrote as it not.

I've found a picture of what seems to be Siegfried! from Soul Edge. The site is in the same picture. Perhaps anyone can confirm it.

Siegfried's Ending
There has been a point in the Trivia added more than once about what happens to Nightmare in Siegfriend's Ending if the players input the code. Now, this point in the trivia it's not only wrong (It's state that Nightmare will be striked by a lighting bolt if the players input the code, when that really happens if the player does NOT input the code)

And the analisys are only speculation, wondering what happened to Nightmare after that, when first: We don't know if Siegfried's Ending is Canon or not (His battle against Nightmare probably is, but that's appart from the endings), and if anyone analyzes that ending, it's easy to deduce that those 3 Nightmare were an hallucination caused by Soul Edge, like the fact that Siegfried saw his hand as Nightmare's just before he appeared, and the fact that, whenever the Nightmares are beated by the Thunder or by Siegfried's attack, they just dissapear leaving nothing and it's the white covering the screen is like it's meaning that the hallucination is over. Nightmare probably wasn't even there, and if he really was, what happened to him is left in shadows, and we'll hardly know until Soul Calibur 4.

Because of all this, the mentioned point in the Trivia is practically ridiculous, I'm deleting it, and please, don't repost it anymore neither in Siegfried's or Nightmare's page. (Alexlayer 16:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC))

Article title
Does anyone else think this page should be moved to Siegfried(Soul series) instead? I think so since the series is referred to as Soul series on the series' page.Leemorrison 17:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I think it should be moved to Siegfried Schtauffen, as with his full name, there's no comparation. --Alexlayer 17:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Confirmation of Soul Edge Phantom.
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/227/939465_20070816_screen006.jpg

I added it to the article already, but I may need someone to fix it for me. I'm not quite sure how to.Wingedregent 07:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC) I found it. Nevermind. Wingedregent 07:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

SoulCalibur IV Translation
I don't think it's a good idea to post a semi-translation of his SC4 bio. I understand the need to explain his role in SC4, but there has to be a better way than a semi-translation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.198.53.76 (talk) 15:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not legible in the slightest. I'm usually good at reading what to some is illegible, but this? It's a mess. I'm getting rid of it. If anyone contests, feel free to re-add it, until then, it would make more sense to remove it in my opinion. Mahare 00:19, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Updating
The biography needs updating for the events of Soulcalibur Legends. I do not know enough about the game to do it myself, but it needs to be done.

Gameplay
Okay, this is pretty much just like the old character analysis section from before. I'm removing these for the same reason people from before deleted the character analysis section. If you want to find out why, check out Taki's and Kilik's talk pages. If people want a strategy guide, they should go to fansites. Mythmonster2 (talk) 06:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Merging Siegfried and Nightmare articles?
On what grounds has someone or anyone brought up the topic of merging these two characters? At one point, Siegfried Schtauffen was redirected to Nightmare's article. In case someone needs to point fingers, I changed it back. I disagree with the choice because there is strong enough evidence from Soulcalibur III onward that the two are separate entities. Each character now has distinct personality traits, goals, background, and story development throughout the course of the series that differentiate the two from each other greatly. Not to mention, why is the discussion link on this topic leading to Nightmare's page, where the topic hadn't even been started, and not a discussion on this page? Thoughts, anyone? Tidus the BlitzStar (talk) 20:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The decision was done because for all the sources, the reception for Siegfried was at a bulk from Soulcalibur II and prior, in which he was still Nightmare. While Nightmare as a separate character got reception, Siegfried as a stand alone character without the Nightmare aspect didn't, and was failing WP:N. Added to this was the issue that the article was rehashing the very same plot up to a certain point as Nightmare's article, and really only a paragraph could be needed to cover Siegfried's role in III and IV. Added to this Nightmare ends up the character with the most promotion. So it came down to two options:
 * Split the reception the best one could, but the end result would be a failure for both articles and just merging them into the character list.
 * Merging one into the other and covering the real-world aspect of them.
 * Nobody of course said anything until after the fact. And before someone chimes in with the inevitable "every char should have an article", they shouldn't. Most of them don't, and other fighting game series character articles are going through the same treatment. So do you destroy both to keep them separate or create one good one?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * There are two points I would like to raise: first is why is page that is kept "Nightmare" instead of Siegfried? In most respect Nightmare is the alter-ego of Siegfried and Siegfried Schtauffen remains the true name of Nightmare. And if you want to argue on a WP:N ground, I would like to see evidence that "Siegfried as a stand alone character without the Nightmare aspect didn't got reception". Second is that what you did is a deletion, not a merge. If it is agreed that only one of them should be kept I believe there should be a section about Siegfried. Feathered serpent (talk) 21:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Same reason Batman is not Bruce Wayne on wikipedia, and Darth Vader is not Anakin Skywalker. Also info was merged between the two: the salvagable content was what little stand-alone story that was separate of time as Nightmare. Siegfried by himself isn't as notable a character, though descriptions and details about him belong in this article just as much as about the animated armor. A separate section is pointless when the information should just as easily be side by side or combined for each section.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:03, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm un-merging the article right now. How could you POSSIBLY say Seigfried isn't notable? He's the MAIN CHARACTER OF THE SERIES!!!!! And some other Soulcalibur characters still have articles, so I don't see what excuse you could make for not having one for Seigfried.76.167.244.204 (talk) 00:37, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you even read anything or did you walk into this blind? You might read the deletion discussion archived above, and this. Series notability is not as important as real-world notability and reception.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Siegfried (Soulcalibur)


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Gari Ledyard

Gari Keith Ledyard (1932 – October 29, 2021) was an American scholar who was Sejong Professor of Korean History Emeritus at Columbia University. He is best known for his work on the history of the Hangul alphabet.

Biography
Gari Keith Ledyard was born in Syracuse, New York in 1932, while his family happened to be in Syracuse for work during the Depression. He grew up in Detroit and Ann Arbor, Michigan, and moved with his family to San Rafael, California, in 1948. After high school, he attended the University of Michigan and San Francisco State College, but did not do well, and in 1953 he joined the army to avoid the draft. Luckily, he missed so much basic training due to illness that he had to repeat it, and during that time opportunities opened up for language training, one of his interests.

Ledyard was scheduled for one year intensive Russian language training at the Army Language School in Monterey, but was soon reassigned to Korean. He graduated too high in his class to be sent to Korea, but after a few months was able to get a posting in Tokyo in July 1955, and then a transfer to Seoul in November. While there, he looked up the families of his Korean teachers, ate in town, and taught at the American Language Institute. When his superiors found out, he was accused of fraternization and reassigned to Tokyo, after only nine months in Korea, and returned to the US in December.

The next spring he enrolled in the University of California at Berkeley, in Chinese language and literature, studying under, among others, Peter Alexis Boodberg and Zhao Yuanren, as there was no Korean Studies program in the United States at the time. For his bachelor's degree in 1958 he translated the Hunmin Jeongeum Haerye into English; for his master's degree in 1963 he documented early Korean–Mongol diplomatic relations; and with a year for research in Seoul for his dissertation, he received his PhD in 1966 and a position at Columbia, at the Centre for Korean Research, succeeding William E. Skillend. He was made a full professor in 1977, and retired in 2001.

Ledyard's dissertation was The Korean Language Reform of 1446, on King Sejong's alphabet project, but concerned with the political implications and controversies of hangul as much as its creation. Unfortunately, he failed to copyright his dissertation, and it was distributed in microfilm and photocopy, so that he could not copyright it and publish without substantial revision. He was finally convinced to do so by the first director of the National Academy of the Korean Language, Lee Ki-Moon, and the book was published in Korea in 1998.

Ledyard also published on Korean cartography, the alliance between Korea and China during the first Japanese invasions, and the relationship between the wars of the Three Kingdoms and the founding of the Japanese state from Korea. He also wrote a book about the journal written by the 17th century Dutch explorer Hendrick Hamel who was held hostage in Korea for 13 years. The title of this book is 'The Dutch come to Korea' and was first published in 1971. He was invited to visit North Korea in 1988.

Ledyard died from complications of Alzheimer's disease at his home, on October 29, 2021, at the age of 89.

Research on the origin of hangul
Ledyard believed, following, French orientalist, Jean-Pierre Abel-Rémusat in 1820, that the basic hangul consonants were adopted from the Mongolian Phagspa script of the Yuan dynasty, known as the 蒙古篆字 měnggǔ zhuānzì (Mongol seal script).

Only five letters were adopted from Phagspa, with most of the rest of the consonants created by featural derivation from these, as described in the account in the Hunmin Jeong-eum Haerye. However, which letters the basic consonants were differs between the two accounts. Whereas the Haerye implies that the graphically simplest letters ㄱㄴㅁㅅㅇ are basic, with others derived from them by the addition of strokes (though with ㆁㄹㅿ set apart), Ledyard believes the five phonologically simplest letters ㄱㄷㄹㅂㅈ, which were basic in Chinese phonology, were also basic to hangul, with strokes either added or subtracted to derive the other letters. It was these five core letters which were taken from the Phagspa script, and ultimately derive from the Tibetan letters ག ད ལ བ ས. Thus they may be cognate with Greek Γ Δ Λ Β and the letters C/G D L B of the Latin alphabet. (The history of the S sounds between Tibetan and Greek is more difficult to reconstruct.) A sixth basic letter, ㅇ, was an invention, as in the Haerye account.

The creation of the vowel letters is essentially the same in the two accounts.

Consonantal design

The Hunmin Jeong-eum credits the 古篆字 "Gu Seal Script" as being the source King Sejong or his ministers used to create hangul. This has traditionally been interpreted as the Old Seal Script, and has confused philologists because hangul bears no functional similarity to the Chinese seal scripts. However, 古 gǔ had more than one meaning: besides meaning old, it could be used to refer to the Mongols (蒙古 Měng-gǔ). Records from Sejong's day played with this ambiguity, joking that "no one is more gu than the Meng-gu". That is, Gu Seal Script may have been a veiled reference to the Mongol Seal Script, or Phagspa alphabet. (Seal script is a style of writing, used for name seals and official stamps. Phagspa had a seal script variant modeled after the appearance of the Chinese seal script of its day. In this guise it was called the 蒙古篆字 Mongol Seal Script, with only the initial character distinguishing it from the 古篆字 credited by the Hunmin Jeong-eum as the source of hangul.) There were many Phagspa manuscripts in the Korean palace library, and several of Sejong's ministers knew the script well.

If this were the case, Sejong's evasion on the Mongol connection can be understood in light of Korea's relationship with China after the fall of the Yuan dynasty, as well as the Korean literati's contempt for the Mongols as "barbarians". Indeed, such China-centered resistance kept hangul out of common use until the dawn of the twentieth century.

Although several of the basic concepts of hangul came from Indic phonology through the Phagspa script, such as the relationships among the homorganic consonants and, of course, the alphabetic principle itself, Chinese phonology also played a major role. Besides the grouping of letters into syllables, along the lines of Chinese characters, it was Chinese phonology, not Indic, that determined which five consonants were basic, and therefore to be retained from Phagspa. These were the tenuis (non-voiced, non-aspirated) plosives, g for ㄱ, d for ㄷ , and b for ㅂ , which were basic to Chinese theory, but which were voiced in the Indic languages and not considered basic; as well as the sibilant s for ㅈ and the liquid l for ㄹ. (Korean ㅈ was pronounced in the 15th century.)

(It is somewhat problematic that hangul ㅈ [ts] has been derived from Phagspa s [s] rather than from dz [ts]. However, the shape of the Phagspa s may have been more conducive to deriving multiple hangul letters than Phagspa dz would have been. Such a shift could easily have happened if the entire Phagspa alphabet were first used as a template for the new alphabet, and then whittled down to a minimal set of basic letters through featural derivation, so that a more convenient shape from among the Phagspa letters  could be used as the basis for the hangul letters for the sibilants .)

The basic hangul letters have been simplified graphically, retaining the essential shape of Phagspa but with a reduced number of strokes. For example, the box inside Phagspa g is not found in hangul ㄱ [k]. This simplification allowed for complex clusters, but also left room for an additional stroke to derive the aspirate plosives, ㅋㅌㅍㅊ. On the other hand, the non-plosives, nasals ng (see below) ㄴㅁ and the fricative ㅅ, were derived by removing the top of the tenuis letter. (No letters were derived from ㄹ.) This clears up a few points. For example, it is easy to derive ㅁ from ㅂ by removing the top of ㅂ, but it is not clear how one would get ㅂ by adding something to ㅁ, since ㅂ is not analogous to the other plosives: if they were derived, as in the traditional account, we'd expect them all to have a similar vertical top stroke.

Sejong also needed a null symbol to refer to the lack of a consonant, and he chose the circle, ㅇ. The subsequent derivation of the glottal stop ㆆ, by adding a vertical top stroke by analogy with the other plosives, and the aspirate ㅎ parallel the account in the Hunmin Jeong-eum. The phonetic theory inherent in this derivation is more accurate than modern IPA usage. In the IPA, the glottal consonants are posited as having a specific "glottal" place of articulation. However, recent phonetic theory has come to view the glottal stop and [h] to be isolated features of 'stop' and 'aspiration' without a true place of articulation, just as their hangul representations based on the null symbol assume.

The ng is the odd letter out here, as it is in the Hunmin Jeong-eum. This may reflect its variable behavior. Hangul was designed not just to write Korean, but to accurately represent Chinese. Besides the letters covered here, there were quite a few more used to represent Chinese etymology. Now, many Chinese words began with ng, at least historically, and this was being lost in several regions of China by Sejong's day: that is, etymological ng was either silent or pronounced in China, and was silent when borrowed into Korean. The expected shape of ng had the additional problem that, by being just the vertical line left by removing the top stroke of ㄱ, it would have been easily confused with the vowel ㅣ. Sejong's solution solved both these problems: the vertical stroke from ㄱ was added to the null symbol ㅇ to create ᇰ, graphically representing both regional pronunciations as well as being easily legible. (If your browser doesn't display this, it's a circle with a vertical line on top, like an upside-down keyhole or lollipop.) Thus ᇰ was pronounced ng in the middle or end of a word, but was silent at the beginning. Eventually the graphic distinction between the two silent initials ㅇ and ᇰ was lost.

Two additional details lend credence to Ledyard's hypothesis. For one, the composition of obsolete ᇢᇦᇴ w, v, f (for Chinese initials 微非敷), from the graphic derivatives of the basic letter ㅂ b [p] (that is, ㅁㅂㅍ m, b, p) by adding a small circle under them, is parallel to their Phagspa equivalents, which were similarly derived by adding a small loop under three graphic variants of the letter h. Now, this small loop also represented w when it occurred after vowels in Phagspa. The Chinese initial 微 represented either m or w in various dialects, and this may be reflected in the choice of ㅁ [m] plus ㅇ (from Phagspa [w]) as the elements of hangul ᇢ. Not only is the series ᇢᇦᇴ analogous to Phagspa, but here we may have a second example of a letter composed of two elements to represent two regional pronunciations, m and w, as we saw with ᇰ for ng and null.

Secondly, most of the basic hangul letters were originally simple geometric shapes. For example, ㄱ was the corner of a square, ㅁ a full square, ㅅ was a caret-like Λ, ㅇ was a circle. In the Hunmin Jeong-eum, before the influence from Chinese calligraphy on hangul, these are purely geometric. However, ㄷ was different. It wasn't a simple half square, like we might expect if Sejong had simply created it ex nihilo. Rather, even in the Hunmin Jeong-eum, it had a small lip protruding from the upper left corner. This lip duplicates the shape of Phagspa d [t], and can be traced back to the Tibetan letter d, ད.

Vocalic design
The seven basic vowel letters were not taken from Phagspa, but rather seem to have been invented by Sejong or his ministers to represent the phonological principles of Korean. Two methods were used to organize and classify these vowels, vowel harmony and iotation.

Of the seven vowels, four could be preceded by a y- sound ("iotized"). These four were written as a dot next to a line: ㅓㅏㅜㅗ. (Through the influence of Chinese calligraphy, the dots soon became connected to the line, as seen here.) Iotation was then indicated by doubling this dot: ㅕㅑㅠㅛ. The three vowels which could not be yotized were written with a single stroke: ㅡㆍㅣ.

The Korean language of this period had vowel harmony to a greater extent than it does today. Vowels alternated according to their environment, and fell into "harmonic" groups. This affected the morphology of the language, and Korean phonology described it in terms of yin and yang: If a word had yang ('bright') vowels, then most suffixes also had to have a yang vowel; and conversely, if the root had yin ('dark') vowels, the suffixes needed to be yin as well. There was a third group called "mediating" ('neutral' in Western terminology) that could coexist with either yin or yang vowels.

The Korean neutral vowel was ㅣ i. The yin vowels were ㅡㅜㅓ eu, u, eo; the dots are in the yin directions of 'down' and 'left'. The yang vowels were ㆍㅗㅏ, ə, o, a, with the dots in the yang directions of 'up' and 'right'. The Hunmin Jeong-eum states that the shapes of the non-dotted letters ㅡㆍㅣ were also chosen to represent the concepts of yin (flat earth), yang (sun in heaven), and mediation (upright man). (The letter ㆍ ə is now obsolete.)

There was a third parameter in designing the vowel letters, namely, choosing ㅡ as the graphic base of ㅜ and ㅗ, and ㅣ as the base of ㅓ and ㅏ. A full understanding of what these horizontal and vertical groups had in common would require knowing the exact sound values these vowels had in the 15th century. Our uncertainty is primarily with the letters ㆍㅓㅏ. Some linguists reconstruct these as, respectively; others as. However, the horizontal letters ㅡㅜㅗ do appear to have all represented mid to high back vowels,.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Gari Ledyard


text:
Downer, Australian Capital Territory

Downer is a suburb of Canberra, Australia, in the city's inner north. The suburb is bounded by Northbourne Avenue, Antill Street and Philip Avenue.

The suburb was gazetted in 1960 and named after Sir John Downer (1844–1915) Premier of South Australia and a member of the first Australian Senate in 1901. There is no specific theme for street names.

History
The buildings which make up the Downer community centre and shops, were built for the CSIRO in 1930s, and the area now comprising Downer was an agricultural research facility for the CSIRO. The area now comprising the suburb was used between 1939 and 1945 as a plantation for the growth of opium poppy to provide a source for medications in the unavailability of imported supplies. The large pine and gum trees which surround the block around the shops were planted in this time as a wind break for the CSIRO building. Large trees (Camden Woolybutts) along Swinden street were also planted then, as Swinden street was the driveway for the CSIRO building, where it connected to Northbourne Avenue. With the development of the suburb the trees became diseased during the 1980s and a program is underway to replace them with more amenable local varieties of gum. As of September 2008, all but two or three of the older Swinden Street gums have been removed.

Downer has a local oval between Frencham, Melba, Bonython and Bradfield streets, with a shopping centre. However, in 2005 the shopping centre was vacant due partly to the poor location of the centre away from major roads. The shops were refurbished in the late 2010s, with a new cafe and vet clinic. In May 2019 a bronze kangaroo sculpture was unveiled, to replace a previous kangaroo sculpture which went missing six years earlier.

Nearby, the Canberra Business Centre until recently occupied the site of the former Downer Primary School. The school closed in 1988.

Geology
Calcareous shales from the Canberra Formation is overlain by Quaternary alluvium. This rock is the limestone of the original title of Canberra "Limestone Plains".

title: Downer, Australian Capital Territory


text:
Lovejoy (album)

Lovejoy is a studio album by Albert King, released in 1971.

The album peaked at No. 188 on the Billboard 200.

Production
The album was produced by Don Nix, who also penned some of the songs. "Lovejoy, Ill." is about Brooklyn, Illinois, which is nicknamed Lovejoy, after Elijah P. Lovejoy. King got his start in Lovejoy.

Track listing

 * 1) "Honky Tonk Woman" (Mick Jagger, Keith Richards) – 3:59
 * 2) "Bay Area Blues" (Donald "Duck" Dunn, Don Nix) – 2:55
 * 3) "Corrina, Corrina" (Don Nix) – 3:45
 * 4) "She Caught the Katy (And Left Me a Mule to Ride)" (Taj Mahal, James Rachell) – 3:56
 * 5) "For the Love of a Woman" (Don Nix) – 4:20
 * 6) "Lovejoy, III." (Don Nix) – 3:46
 * 7) "Everybody Wants to Go to Heaven" (Don Nix) – 4:20
 * 8) "Going Back to Iuka" (Don Nix) – 3:58
 * 9) "Like a Road Leading Home" (Don Nix, Dan Penn) – 5:24

Personnel

 * Albert King – electric guitar, vocals
 * Jesse Ed Davis – guitar
 * Tippy Armstrong – guitar
 * Wayne Perkins – guitar
 * John Gallie – keyboards
 * Barry Beckett – keyboards
 * Donald Dunn – bass guitar
 * David Hood – bass guitar
 * Jim Keltner – drums
 * Roger Hawkins – drums
 * Sandy Konikoff – percussion
 * Jeanie Green – backing vocals
 * The Mount Zion Singers – backing vocals
 * Technical
 * Larry Hamby, Marlin Greene, Peter Nicholls, Steve Smith - engineer
 * John Fry - remix engineer
 * Joel Brodsky - photography

title: Lovejoy (album)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sleepfister

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. – ABCD✉ 00:15, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Sleepfister
Tagged for speedy as "band vanity", which isn't a valid reason, though I wouldn't mind if it was. Anyway, this is band vanity, and should go, though I do like the names of some of the bands mentioned. Delete CDC   (talk)  23:32, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn band vanity. -- Etacar11   00:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn band vanity. --TheMidnighters 00:20, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, vanity. —PrologFan {Talk} 01:31, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Add back once they've achieved some notoriety. Pburka 01:34, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, their only known 'release' contained 3 songs and lasted under 5 minutes. Nothing on allmusic.com either. They 'king suck, just as the article says. -Splash 01:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn band vanity. JamesBurns 08:36, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete unless proof of compliance to WP:MUSIC is presented.-Poli (talk • contribs) 03:15, 2005 July 28 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Murdoch v Murdoch

Murdoch v Murdoch, also known as the Murdoch Case, was a controversial family law decision by the Supreme Court of Canada where the Court denied an abused ranch wife any interest in the family ranch. This case is most notable for the public outcry it created at the time and for what many  believe is Justice Laskin's most famous dissenting opinion.

Irene Murdoch, the wife of an Albertan rancher, submitted a claim for half the interest in the family ranch that was registered under the husband's name. The question put before the Court was whether there was an implied trust on behalf of the wife for all her years of labour on the ranch.

In a 4-1 decision, a majority of the Court dismissed the wife's application. Speaking for the majority, Justice Martland upheld the trial judge's finding that the wife's labour was not beyond what was normally expected of a ranch wife. Martland J. held that since there was no financial contribution nor intention to create a trust, there could be no resulting trust, relying on a similar English case, Gissing v. Gissing.

In dissent, Laskin J. argued that the Court did not need to examine intent in order to find a trust; rather a constructive trust based in equity could be found.

Laskin's dissent proved to be among his most famous. Many scholars, himself included, believed that his dissent was a major factor in his unexpected promotion to Chief Justice several years later.

Canadian feminists publicized the case across the country. The outcry against the decision contributed to substantial reforms to matrimonial property laws across the country, giving husbands and wives equal rights to property acquired during the course of the marriage.

Following the Supreme Court decision, Irene Murdoch started a new proceeding, a petition for divorce. In the divorce proceedings, she was found to be entitled to a lump-sum award of $65,000 from James Murdoch, in place of monthly spousal maintenance.

title: Murdoch v Murdoch


text:
Talk:Jerry Weller

Zury Name
The section about the Zury name confusion which someone deleted in haste should be readded. It seems legit because Weller's own House bio refers to her as Rios Sosa. Pointing out the confusion is fair game in Wikipedia, expressing opinion why it exists is not.

If KV could make a case for why the list of Zury's ex-husbands, or the General's political career is relevent to Weller's article, it'd be worth discussing. "Because it is" doesn't make that case though. If that's the reasoning, then there should be discussion of Weller's ex-wife on Zury's page. And by extension of the same principle, there should be a big section on the Bay of Pigs on Carolyn Bessette's page. -Frankflynn42 16:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I removed the listing of Zury Ríos Montt's ex-husbands; however, I did note that she was previously married three times. In my opinion this is fair because the ex-husbands themselves may not be relevant, but her pattern of behavior is an issue. Also, as far as details pertaining to her father, I think she opened the door by campaigning for him and voicing public support. Had she distanced herself, I wouldn't think she ought to be held accountable for the sins of the father. Given the circumstances, I think it is fair game. I removed the NPOV tag. Propol 15:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I mentioned the names of Rios-Montt de Weller's last three husbands because in Central American newspapers (in spanish, which I don't understand much, and have used google to translate(!) there seemed to inferences that at least one and maybe all of her husbands were commonly known in Guatemala to be involved in "contraband" and other illegal activities. Also I listed there names just as proof that she was in fact married at least 3 times.

I think the name confusion is a valid issue worthy of discussion. As far as I have been able to tell, all of her adult life, certainly since she decided to joing her father's political party, the FRG, she has also used her father's last name, Rios Montt. It wasn't until her engagement to Weller that - during his last re-election campaign in 2004 - that she began being introduced, only here in the United States, as Zury Rios Sosa instead of Rios Montt.

There's more about Congressman Weller's personal life than his political time in office because frankly he hasn't done all that much that is remarkable or noteworthy in his political career, until he became engaged to another politician of another country while they were both writing legislation for CAFTA. And while he is still sitting on the House International Relations Committee, which overseas the Americas, which includes, of course, Guatemala. Several local and national newspapers made mention of this at the time of their engagement and have continued to do so since then. Weller continues to refuse to even speak about his marriage (except to keep repeating how much he's "in love") and the apparent conflict of interest. He did promise voters here in the Illinois 11th district that he would not vote on any legislation involving Guatemala. He broke that promise when he voted on CAFTA.

Finally the General's political career is relevant to the article because Weller is a Congressman of United States and that IS his father-in-law. Also Weller, even though asked to by his constituents in the 11th district of Illinois and many reporters for newspapers in the district, has never made any kind of statement saying that he does not condone General Rios Montt's history and political tactics. By marrying in the Generals home with him presiding at the ceremony, one can make the case that Weller actually condones Rios Montt's past, and his wife's also. Love is one thing, politics is another, when Weller and Rios Montt combined the two without any explanations or apologies, they have asked for all the trouble they get. Especially when Weller loves to give speeches about "freedom" and "democracy" and yet his marriage ceremony was a who's who of graduates from the School of the America's.

To say they have an unusual relationship is an understatement. While he claims they live in the district on his government website, everyone knows he doesn't, let alone his "wife" who seems to spend most of her time in Guatemala. She comes in for the political photo as election time nears, and then is gone again. Rumors through out the years have been that Weller is gay. No problem for me, except the hypocrisy of it. He's voted against legislation for civil rights for gays.

If you take the time to read my blogs, (and I understand time is something none of us have a lot of) everthing I say about Weller or his wife is linked as to source. (Except for the gay rumors. I did have one link to someone else's blog, but that link is no longer good.) I've spent hours going over spanish translations and to make sure I have the facts straight on exactly who Zury Rios Montt is. I had no idea until AFTER the 2004 election, when I started to find out while reading about their wedding ceremony. It engraged me and offended my sense of social justice. He's my congressman, this flagrant denial of the human rights and ethics aspects of this marriage I take personally. Excuse any "bad wiki manners" I may exhibit, I'm learning as I go here. Never have enough time. Kankakee Voice

Bolivian Unicyclist
First of all, nice work Bolivian Unicyclist. This article is much much closer to being an actual encyclopedia article because of your efforts. Propol: I am still not sure why Zury's marriage history is relevent to Weller's article. It is however a fact, and no dispute there. I do find it rather unusual that the section on Weller's personal life is longer than that of his long record of public service and that the personal section hardly mentions him, the actual subject of the article! Again, the question is relevence. I have added citation needed tags in places that I believe are critical. I have removed a couple links to the KV's blog which were certainly not research references. Frankly, I don't think the blog should be linked to at all, per Wikipedia's general recommendation. But since there is usually an editing war going on here, I think a link to the blog can be sustained if information on its bias is included. Finally, Weller's campaign website link was removed because that's a non functioning link. Frankflynn42 03:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)Frankflynn42

 * First of all, thanks for the kind words, Frankflynn42. I've added a couple of the requested references; unfortunately, as all I could find was either in Spanish or from Kankakee Voice's page, I went with the Spanish. Re her surnames: irrespective of my personal feelings about these people, I can't get worked up about the Ríos Sosa / Ríos Montt issue. The Guatemalan press seems to use the two pretty indistinctly, and a Google search restricted to "gt" domains actually returns more Sosas than Montts. Reading between the lines, I'd guess that Ríos Sosa is what's on her passport and academic certificates, while Ríos Montt is a style she prefers as a vindication of her father and an expression of her support for him. KV's claim that she affected the style Ríos Sosa to pull the wool over Uncle Sam's eyes is not supported by the facts or by the way names work in Spanish-speaking countries. Sorry. Bolivian Unicyclist 16:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Black Thursday
As far as the editing goes, I have removed the citation on the issue of Zury "masterminding" Black Thursday. The opinion column used in the citation was rather slanderous, but above all it was one man's opinion. There must be a way to independently verify Zury's role in this important moment in Guatemala's history, or else the statement shouldn't appear in the article. I've linked the birth announcement to the La Prensa article. I think the article needs reliable evidence that the FRG organized the riots. Organizing riots seems a bit of an oxymoron; but it is one thing to say that the rioters were members of the FRG and another to say the FRG planned the violence. I think the first statement is a given, but the second requires some evidence. It seems charges against the general on the matter were dropped. Any additional prosecutions could constitute evidence. This section also gave the impression that the general was doing something illegal by seeking to appear on the ballot. I have added information that presents it as a legal dispute in which the general's argument was ultimately accepted. Only the members of the constitutional court know the reason they made their decision as they did. I still feel it's rather irrelevent to Weller's article. But if we're going to present it, let's be factual about it.

KV you make a lot of insinuations, and I think a blog is a good forum for that. But I think the mission here is verifiable fact. For instance, I have pretty much put the page here on John Pavich together solo. I think it stands up pretty well under factual analysis. But one could certainly insinuate much about Pavich. He touts his CIA service record in Europe, but what was his role, if any, in the renditions and secret flights that the CIA conducted during his service? Does his service with the agency indicate tacit personal approval of these actions? What was his reaction to Dick Marty's report? So far, the media has been more enamored with the simple fact that he was a spy. It's a fact that Pavich helped defend a Bosnian-Serb war criminal. Certainly, we recognize the right to a fair trial even in international settings, and don't hold counsel responsible in any way for the actions of their clients, but as you criticize Weller's silence on his father in law (who isn't an indicted war criminal), Pavich is interestingly silent about past Bosnian-Serb and Serb regimes. But what I just laid down is a whole lot of bluster and insinuation, but not much fact. So it isn't anything that should appear in a factual article about him. -Frankflynn42 04:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Frank, I'm not making insinuations, all the following points bolivian unicylist made, I have linked to on my blog. If people would take the time to read through and click on the links they would find that everything I state is backed up by a valid source. I'm still not up on how to make links internal, vs, external here on wiki. I don't make any insinuations (other than the Weller is gay one, which I make only because everyone I know insinuates that, and I have read other blogs that insinuated that also, blogs written by people I don't know or have any connection with. Just like here in the U.S. where most people now understand and take for granted that our reasons for going into Iraq were false and perhaps even started by outright lies by our president, so it is in Guatemala, from my reading of newspapers there, that everyone understands she was involved in, if not the mastermind of the events that lead to the riots they call black thursday in 2003, right before her and Weller met. Calling a riot "orchestrated" is hardly oxymoronic. Frank you are obviously an intelligent man. You must have the imagination, or even know of other historical examples where a riot most cerainly was "orchestrated" to achieve a certain effect. It isn't hard to start - orchestrate - a riot when you have a large group of very emotional people.

The difference between your insinuation on John Pavich and what I report on what I've read in newspapers about Zury Rios Montt, is that here in America we have a better working justice system. While the American justice system is hardly perfect and can be corrupted - has been corrupted. The Guatemalan justice system is much worse. Human rights conditions in Guatemala are much worse than here in the U.S. I could easily be killed for saying what I say about Zury Rios Montt or her father in Guatemala. That is why right now, with the Spanish judge and legislators there looking into Rigoberto Menchu charges of genocide against Rios Montt and others, those testify with Menchu, and Menchu herself require nationals from other countries to accompany them to try and help keep them safe. Some times, in places like Guatemala, and other countries where there is not a justice system that works fairly and freely, "the facts" are not enough. One needs to add to the facts that the fact is, all the facts in a situation are not allowed to be brought out by fear of death or beatings or other intimidation by those in power.

And of course, Pavich acting as a lawyer, just as any lawyer acts as a defense lawyer for an accused person in the U.S., is part of what makes a fair trail. It's part of what makes the U.S. judicial system less corrupt than most globally. Just like you can't say the lawer defending John Wayne Gacy approved of what Gacy did, the same goes for Pavich when acting as a lawyer. Very different situations from, 1. Zury as a grown woman taking actions and supporting her father and the corrupt FRG party or 2. Weller choosing to marry in Guatemala, in the General's home, with the General presiding - along with another family friend who co-presided at he wedding.

B.U. No, I have tried to hard to track down the picture or more quotes about Zury with her ski mask lifted and face showing during the riots. (I have skepticism about that claim. Why would the Princess Thugger even need to be on the ground if she is masterming the event? That' what they pay their people to do, their dirty work for them. I find the arrest of Zury's secretary quite incriminating and significant though.) Can't track it down. Many papers based IN Guatemala are very careful of what they say and how they say it when it comes to Rios Montt family members. Since I've started researching and linking, I've even had links "disappear" on me, both from Guatemalan newspapers and from here in the 11th Il congressional district from certain republican leaning newspapers.

If someone could give me a short, easy explanation of how to make external links internal I would greatly appreciate it. Also if you would tell me how to make my signature time and date stamped like all of you do, I would greatly appreciate that also. I know I should take the time to read all this for myself and as soon as I have the time I will. My intention really isn't to become a full time wike editor, though - as interesting and important as doing this is.

Kankake Voice Kankakee Voice

 * Valid comments. I knew I was on shaky ground with that opinion column but (I thought) it did at least serve to indicate that "some people believed" (weasel alert) her to be behind the incident. Seven  members of the FRG did face charges for orchestrating the riot, including the journalist's death -- the general, Juan Pablo Ríos (his grandson), Ingrid Argueta (his niece),  Waleska Sánchez (Zury's secretary) and 3 others   -- but I don't know what the outcome of the proceedings was, other than the charges against the general himself were dropped. Bolivian Unicyclist 15:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Bolivian Unicyclist: Good catch on the others charged in connection with the riots. I had not seen that before. Perhaps a statement to the effect "members of the FRG were accused of inciting riots" or manslaughter etc (I have not yet translated the charges) would be in order. But, as we try to keep this remotely related to Weller, Zury's role if any, is perhaps a better focus. My reading of the facts is that the general encouraged members of his party to demonstrate; whether he or the others accused armed them or exhorted them on to violence that led to a man's death would be shown (or not) at trial. But as we've discussed, the general was cleared in the matter, and the status of the other accused would certainly be relevent to assigning culpability. In one of the other articles here, it's stated that Zury was photographed organizing demonstrators on the morning of the riots. If a source for the photo exists, or at least a print source stating the same, that would be an excellent addition as a reference for the discussion here. Frankflynn42 17:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)Frankflynn42

 * 'Manslaughter' is right for homicidio preterintencional; the other charges -- (?) abuse of authority, failing to make a report, failing to perform duty -- sound a lot less serious. But I'm guessing. The quote about Zury being photographed on another article is, I think, someone's fingers getting into a fumble. I've reworded the claim on jueves negro, and should probably do the same elsewhere (it appears on the general's article, I think). I certainly haven't turned up anything as juicily incriminating as a photo of Zury on the day (they were all wearing ski-masks, of course). Maybe KV knows of one? Bolivian Unicyclist 19:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Finances
Well, here we go again. If there's published reporting on Weller links to campaign finance corruption, link to the reporting! It's generous enough that we keep KV's blog in the external links in light of Wikipedia's linking policies. Removed the statement on oil and gas company contributions, because the link did not support the assertion. If one can provide a cumulative summary of Weller's contributions received from oil and gas companies over several election cycles, then the statement is probably factual, but link provided does not show "hundreds of thousands of dollars". Added an external link which shows fundraising for current 11th district race. This provides a good starting point for any details of candidate funding that the reader would seek. Frankflynn42 15:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Here YOU go again, Frank. I took your suggestion and changed a few links, although I didn't feel I really needed to, but just to make you happy this ONE time. I prefer the wedding photo, I think it catches the essence of the marriage much better than that phony, cheap looking walmart shot. And by the way, Frank, you never answered my questions. And what do you have against that blood red and white lovely picture of the Happy Couple with both sets of parents?

Kankake Voice Kankakee Voice

All right KV, a lot of points. First of all, I didn't see your previous post because it didn't fall at the bottom of the page. So, I've now read your full comments. I didn't edit your photo out, that was Tdl1060. If you take the time to read the history page, you will see that his/her edit is labelled as such. However, I will warn you that if the photo you edited into the page doesn't meet Wikipedia's fair use standard, it will soon be deleted. In fact, if you refer to the file page for your photo, the copyright status of the photo has already been disputed by other users (and not those of us who edit the article here). The photo at the top of the article meets fair use standards because it's a U.S. government photo. So, you might want to familiarize yourself with that policy, and provide a fair use explanation if you want the photo to remain.

I will have a look, and I encourage others to have a look at your sources on Weller links to DeLay, Cunningham et al to evaluate their credibility. But I don't think linking to a DCCC article provides a neutral source of information!

On the oil and gas companies: I don't know how to say it any more plainly: the source you link to does not show accepted donations of hundreds of thousands of dollars from the oil and gas industry, it shows $45,000 in this election cycle. So you make a statement and then cite a source which does not support the statement. All I ask is that the statement be edited to reflect the source, or a source be found to support the statement. It doesn't seem that unreasonable to me, but maybe others could offer their thoughts as well. Beyond all of that, singling out oil and gas is really a "cherry pick" of the data, since building trade unions have given Weller exactly $500 less than oil and gas in this cycle, according to the data you cite.

Finally, how is a voting record interpreted by a think-tank neutral? I'm very eager to hear anyone's point of view on how that could be. I think the full voting record that was put in place recently was a nice touch, and readers can look at the record and decide for themselves who benefits from Weller's votes.

There is certainly a history of questions surrounding the general. But let's get what is actually verifiable out there! KV, maybe you should cite Guatemala's truth and reconciliation commission. It doesn't go as far as holding the general personally responsible for atrocities (in my reading) but certainly holds the government under his leadership responsible. Frankflynn42 16:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Frank. I don't know how to tag a photo, when I downloaded it, I didn't know exactly what I was doing, I thought I did everything required. I found the photo via a google image search, it seemed to be on several Guatemalan or Spanish newspapers. I never found anything that indicted who took the photo. I have it downloaded on my laptop. And I uploaded it up to my flicker picture site. Why is it a problem to link to his oil and gas contributions but not all the other contributions that are linked to. What's so different about oil and gas? If you look at all of Weller's Oil and Gas contributions over his 12 years in office they easily add up to over hundreds of thousands of dollars since he took office in 1994. I will word it as such. As for General Rios Montt's background and history, if you know so much about him, why don't you do the linking to tell the truth about this man? Or are you trying to smooth over Rios Montt, his daughter the thug and Weller's image for them? Kankakee VoiceKankakee Voice 22:34, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Blog link
KV: I see the link to your blog was edited out by another user. That is actually consistent with Wikipedia policy. It's worth giving that policy a read so you understand why. Frankly, I don't mind having your blog linked, as long as its lack of neutrality is labelled as it was.

If the photo you edited in doesn't meet fair use, you might still be able to get permission from the copyright holder.

I have left all your edits in place and put in a neutrality tag because I want to try to build consensus here. Here are the points with which I have a problem:

 * "Congressman Jerry Weller's name has currently been connected to three different scandals currently under investigation, Jack Abramoff, Randy "Duke" Cunningham and Tom DeLay."

This might actually fit better in the fundraising section, since it concerns fundraising. The link to DCCC is hardly neutral; the link attached to "under investigation" is partisan; for instance, no mention of Congressman Jefferson there. I do find that the citations on Abramoff and Cunningham at least demonstrate financial links. The link under DeLay just gives a chart of PAC money received by members including DeLay, so I don't see any relevence to Weller.

 * "as Ríos Montt's father is a former dictator, charged with genocide General Efraín Ríos Montt,"

The link provided as support of "charged with genocide" does not state that Efraín Ríos Montt has been charged with genocide, and one will be hard pressed to find such a link because such a charge has not occurred. The link discusses an investigation by Spanish prosecutors that could lead to charges. Ríos Montt was charged in relation to the death of a journalist in the Black Thursday riots and those charges were later dropped. I suggested a link to the Guatemalan truth and reconciliation commission because it does conclude that atrocities occurred during Ríos Montt's leadership, although it does not conclude that he was personally responsible, nor does it conclude that atrocities occurred by his decree. As the Spanish investigation shows, these last points are ongoing and open questions.

 * Weller has accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars, over his 12 years in office as Congressman, in donations from big oil and gas companies.

The link provided as support for this still shows $45,000 raised from oil and gas concerns in the current election cycle. The assertion of hundreds of thousands, (which I am not doubting if $45,000 has been raised already in this cycle), requires a citation that shows that. One can't just guess at the numbers. There is a broader question of whether selective inclusion of fundraising sources constitutes a POV. The numbers of any candidate are illuminated by the context. For instance, isn't it POV to discuss certain corporate contributions, but leave out trade union contributions or vice versa? Especially when the numbers included and excluded are essentially equal? I'm of a mind that for any candidate of any party, we should simply link to a fundraising summary or FEC data. But, would like to see other opinions on this Frankflynn42 15:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Frank. I only added the link to the oil money because I saw all the other links concerning campaign donations linked to. Why leave this one out if others are allowed? (I say either all donations links are fair game. Or just an FEC summary if an accurate one can be found that represents his whole 12 years in office. Or none.) To see that he has recieved 100's of thousands of dollars all one has to do, as you surmised, is take a look over the donations of the past 12 years. I did that. I will add that to my working to the link. They come up to the amount I mention.

The Spanish Court, Judge, prosecutor for Rigoberta Menchu who has brought charges of genocide against Rios Montt among others, is in Guatemala right now trying to get the justice ball rolling. You can't google Rios Montt's name without the "g" word coming up with it. I will change the link and use the word accused.

I don't mind the label on my blog as no neutral, and I will keep linking it back unless something definite is decided one way or another. There is as much information on blog on Jerry Weller, Zury Rios Montt and her father General Rios Montt as can be found anywhere, but one must take the time to read through it and follow all the links.

As for the photo, it's been up much longer than the 7 days. I did go back and try to fix what ever the problem was. I assume it was fixed and is considered fair use because it was not deleted. Most photos that are copyrighted have the AP signature or something else shown by it. And often one isn't able to copy them from the internet. This one I found on google search images, in several places and with no one claiming possesion or rights to the picture, and I was able to download it to my laptop. How do I know if it meets "fair use" or not? Thank you for being helpful Frank. I'm sorry I snapped at you. I have had unpleasant things happen to me since I began criticizing Congressman Weller and it has left me a bit on the defensive side. Kankakee VoiceKankakee Voice 19:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Hello Kankakee Voice and Frankflynn42. I have tried to clean up the article a little bit. KV, I think I kept nearly all of your content, but I did reword it in some cases to sound more neutral. I understand your opinion of Weller, but let the facts do the talking for you. I also substituted more authoritative links whenever I could. I was able to find most of the info in the FEC records. KV, I also had to replace the wedding photo, I used the one with the background that you don't seem to like. Just so you know, I think it would be nice to use a wedding photo. However, as far as I can tell, we don't have the right to use the photo you selected. We can use the photo I replaced it with because it is a promotional photo provided by the subject. I'm going to drop the NPOV tag as long as nobody objects. Lastly, KV I understand it can be frustrating when others constantly revise your edits, but Frank doesn't seem like a troll to me. In fact, in the long-run he may help you. If your tone comes off too negative, or if your sources aren't rock-solid, then many people will dismiss the entire article, and then all of your effort (and everyone else's) will be for naught. 70.230.67.13 05:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Rumor
Gonna 'splode? Anyone? Anyone? 66.73.160.10 02:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Preemptive add to watchlist - Meersan 04:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Add to watchlist balance of comment deleted 9/20/2006 Billbrock 05:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The Rumor Is False!
A certain rumor has been alluded to on Daily Kos, archpundit.com, The Daily Background, and Wonkette. This was not a garden-variety rumor. If false, it's news for another reason; its existence was most verifiable:

 * So, the rumors that Weller is holed up somewhere and is “about to resign any minute” don’t
 * appear to be true. The rumors that he is being pressed to resign by House GOP leadership also
 * don’t appear to be true. The [...] rumor itself seems unsubstantiated at best and malicious at
 * worst. There was even a rumor posted on some blogs that Weller had pulled his
 * campaign website offline this week. Not true.''

 * Now, I can’t guarantee you one way or another if The Rumor is true or not, of course, but I do
 * have more than just serious doubts about it. What I am sure of is that some high-up Democrats
 * have been pushing the heck out of this story and they ought to stop it or produce some real
 * evidence. It may have begun as a well-meaning leak, but it certainly isn’t that now.

 * Weller’s spokesman, Steve Shearer, described the rumor as a “political nuclear bomb” that
 * opponents could throw and then “retreat into anonymity” without providing any real evidence.

 * The Democrats, Shearer said, may be hoping to use The Rumor to “put a race into play for no
 * money at all.” He could very well be right.

 * No reader comments on this one. If something else happens, I’ll open up a thread. And if
 * Weller is lying, we’ll all go nuclear on him together. I just don’t think that’s the case.
 * Source:thecapitolfaxblog.com

Better to be right than to be first.... Billbrock 03:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC) edited Billbrock 19:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Possibly related tidbit on David Corn's website. Billbrock 03:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Possibly related to Dana Milbank's recent comments? Billbrock 03:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * For not wanting to spread a rumor, you sure are doing a good job spreading a rumor. WP:BLP probably supports removing this post, even from a talk page.
 * "In cases where the information is derogatory and poorly sourced or unsourced, this kind of edit is an exception to the three-revert rule. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Wikipedia, including user and talk pages."
 * --Dual Freq 04:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I get where you're coming from, but this is a most unusual rumor, and it's extremely well-sourced for this type of rumor (setting the gossipy Wonkette and the blatantly partisan dKos aside, the other blogs have excellent reputations for fair reporting). It's news whether true or false.  If false (and kindly note that I prominently featured a blog that suggests the rumor may be a Democratic dirty trick), it's explosive in a different way.  One way or another, it's going to be significant....  Billbrock 04:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Your sources verify that there is a rumor, not that it is true or false. According to Jimbo, "Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia." "WikiEN-l Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information" --Dual Freq 04:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * No claim is made beyond the existence of an unusually well-sourced rumor (multiple reliable bloggers w/ journalism background speaking of multiple reliable credible sources). Agree that this is merely verifiability of the rumor's existence.  Hundreds of thousands of people already have heard the rumor: I think it's fair to the subject that WP reflect that it has not been verified.  And I regret my flippancy prior to this section: a person's reputation is indeed at stake.  Billbrock 05:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * And Dual Freq was correct! Billbrock 19:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Update from Archpundit
"What Do Blagojevich, Davlin, and Weller Have In Common They were all screwed by rumors that were amazingly widespread and false."''

"First, I'm sorry--my judgment held up in the first two, but this time it didn't. Read below in another post for how it unfolded and feel free to remind me from time to time." From Sweet:

"Rep. Jerry Weller (R-Ill.), hit with rumors that he was somehow involved in the page scandal, issued a statement Thursday saying he was not a factor -- but a former page or intern he sponsored was subject to some questionable behavior by another lawmaker".

More at the link. Billbrock 19:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * You said: "If false, it's news for another reason". OK, its false, what's the other reason? Are you implying that there was a deliberate attempt to falsely smear a politician only days prior to the election? If so, who is now going to be held to account for this slander? Is any of this notable to add to the article? Since it's not going to be added to the article, can we delete this entire section on the talk page yet? Dual Freq 19:36, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Either incredibly sloppy reporting (OK, it wasn't published, but reporters were talking to many many blogs) or a deliberate attempt to smear (some sources did not have partisan axe to grind; others did). Agree that it certainly doesn't belong here now, but it may make sense to leave it up for a day or so for purposes of refutation...Wonkette, e.g., has not retracted. If deliberate, this deserves its own story.  Billbrock 20:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't think this could be described as a smear by any stretch of the imagination. Weller's name came into the frame of the scandal in relation to rumours of a third congressman facing accusations of inappropriate behaviour. It's not hard to see why people initially leapt to the conclusion that he himself was the third congressman. As it turns out, he merely sponsored the page who has allegedly been targeted by a third congressman (and that, incidentally, should be added to the article - as should his refusal to name that congressman). That's sloppy journalism maybe, but not a smear. When people heard there was a third Congressman and then heard that Weller was involved with the scandal, they put two and two together. As it turns out, they came up with 5. 172.202.245.34 00:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

 * So, no one is to blame. Just weeks before an election and no one is to blame. Just sloppy journalism, and not a deliberate attempt to sink a candidate. "If false, it's news for another reason", yet there is suddenly no news, just an honest mistake and / or sloppy journalism. This proves this information should never have been linked here. This is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid, but hell even a tabloid wouldn't have published this. --Dual Freq 17:15, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

 * This Wonkette post has not yet been walked back: someone is to blame for that. Looks like a smear to me, and a legally actionable one at that. IMO, this is still very much a story, but based on present knowledge, it's of zero relevance to the Weller campaign.  Also, the logical reading of the Daily Journal article is that Weller will share what he knows with the Page Board and the Ethics Committee when asked; that shouldn't be read as Weller's "refusal to name" the other Congressman. Billbrock 06:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

 * The Capitol Fax Blog updated. Billbrock 20:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Contributions
This section seems a bit POV, cherry picking a long list for potentially controversial contributors. Weller has received donations from various labor groups, including: I only list these labor and worker related groups to demonstrate how the list can be cherry picked to show whatever POV someone wants to show. Is a list of cherry picked contributers appropriate? Would a similarly cherry picked list be appropriate list for John Pavich? I recommend removal of the list in its current POV form, replace it with a link to the contribution page and let people figure it out themselves. --Dual Freq 15:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * AMALGAMATED TRANSIT UNION-COPE
 * INTERNATIONAL UNION OF OPERATING ENGINEERS LOCAL 150 POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
 * INTERNATIONAL UNION OF PAINTERS AND ALLIED TRADES POLITICAL ACTION TOGETHER POLITICAL COMM
 * LABORERS' POLITICAL LEAGUE-LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF N.A.
 * RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS POLITICAL LEAGUE A PROJECT OF THE TRANS. COMM. INT'L. UNION/IAM
 * SEAFARERS POLITICAL ACTIVITY DONATION-SEAFARERS INTERNATIONAL UNION OF N.A.-AGLIWD/NMU
 * SHEET METAL AND AIR CONDITIONING CONTRACTORS' POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE
 * TRANSPORT WORKERS UNION POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS COMMITTEE
 * TRANSPORTATION TRADES DEPARTMENT AFL-CIO POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE (TTD/PAC)
 * UNITED TRANSPORTATION UNION POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE (UTU PAC)
 * NATIONAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS ASSOCIATION PAC
 * COMMITTEE ON LETTER CARRIERS POLITICAL EDUCATION (LETTER CARRIERS POLITICAL ACTION FUND)
 * DAIRY FARMERS OF AMERICA INC DEPAC (DAIRY EDUCATION POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE)
 * AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION PAC

 * Removed contributor section, no other member of the Illinois delegation, or IL Governor has a similar section. It's also hopelessly POV as stated above and non-biographical. --Dual Freq 11:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I reverted your deletion of the entire section. There are several members of the Illinois delegation that have contributor sections. For example Dennis Hastert has a contributor section and nobody has objected. I would have to think that his is a frequently reviewed article. Also, comparing a House seat (a federal election) to Governor (a state election) doesn't seem consistent. Besides, there are highly credible and unbiased sources (Federal Election Commission) for the contributors section. I was supportive of your prior edits that added additional information for the purpose of a balanced NPOV article. I think it's better to go that route, rather than delete everything. By the way, I think the John Pavich article should also have a contributor section. However, Weller has raised $1.09 million from PAC's this election, while Pavich has only raised $68 thousand from PAC's. There isn't much to say about Pavich. Lastly, I don't agree with your sentiment, replace it with a link to the contribution page and let people figure it out themselves. Under that logic, why not delete the entire Jerry Weller article and let people figure it out. They could go Google him. I'm sorry, I don't mean to come off sounding harshly. I am very willing to work with you on this topic. Thanks. Propol 12:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to comment following your revert. Thanks for pointing out the Hastert link, I guess I didn't notice it since it was such a small part of his article.

Hastert's article is 30k in size and he has just under 200 words about contributions. He is the current speaker of the House and is a national figure. On the other hand, Jerry Weller's article is 12k and has a bit over 450 words dedicated to contributors. He is a relatively minor figure in the house, compared to Hastert, or at least he appears to be minor since there is no mention of laws he has sponsored, and the only committee membership that is mentioned the mention of the West Hem. committee, simply serves as a prelude to the largest part of the article, the Jerry Weller's married to the daughter of a dictator section. That section is around 330 words long and is basically a mini-biography of his wife and her evil dictator father.

As for the required inclusion of referenced material, according to What Wikipedia is not, "That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia." I stand by my above assertion that if people want to read his list of contributors, they should go to the FEC website. That's what it is for. On the other hand, this is an encyclopedia.

Since it doesn't seem to be standard practice to list contributors in other congressional delegate articles, I don't believe this article should list them either. Certainly Hastert, a national figure, is a different story, but the rest don't include any contributions section. Dick Durbin lists nonthing and Barack Obama, a 50k featured article, doesn't have any words with "contrib" in it. This article reads more like an anti-Weller blog than a biography of Weller. One thing we should note is that this article is the number 3 hit for Jerry Weller on Google. I'm not trying to turn this into a campaign website, but it does need to be converted from a blog to a biography. --Dual Freq 23:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, I've noticed there is no mention of his Parents or siblings names. His father in law is mentioned, but not his own parents. --Dual Freq 00:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC) Nevermind, I found it. --Dual Freq 01:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

"Contributors" section (take 2)
The Dennis Hastert article, cited as an example of another article that has a contributors section, is a model for how SHORT such a section should be - and it's worth noting that Hastert certainly has gotten a lot more money from a lot more sources than has Weller. A similar discussion was just held concerning the Mark Kirk article, and the section there was then shortened to a much more appropriate length.

The problem in this article is threefold: first, a sort of guilt by association; second, a selective (by necessity) list which can't help but introduce POV (someone decides which contributors are listed and which are not, and this is inherently POV), and third, more importantly, a violation of WP:NPOV because of undue weight. Not counting references, the section on contributors is almost HALF of the article, but it certainly is not close to half of what is newsworthy about Weller.

Please note that this is not an argument about WP:RS or WP:V. Nothing above changes even if it is conceded (for the sake of argument) that all of the statements in the section are factual, and adequately sourced. Wikipedia articles are not lists, however, per WP:NOT.

If someone doesn't have the time to edit down the section (again, the Hastert and Kirk articles can serve as models), then the only solution may be to remove the entire section. John Broughton |  Talk 18:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Alternatively, you could expand the biographical portion of the article. — goethean ॐ 18:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

 * No, I don't think that would work - to get the same proportion of the article being about contributions (versus other stuff) as is the case for Hastert and Kirk, for example, the article would need to be five to ten times longer, which is probably longer than the article for any other Representative. It's more reasonable to reduce the section so that it is no longer than any similar section found in any other article on a Representative.  John Broughton  |  Talk 20:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I attempted to remove the section once before using the same logic. I think it received one reply and a swift revert. Look at Barack Obama's article, it's now a 55k featured article and the term "contrib" can not be found in it. I guarantee someone could cherry pick his contributers similar to this article and add 5k worth of contributers to "smear" him with as this article does. I support total removal of the section since a shortened version would have no context and would most likely be POV. --Dual Freq 23:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Energy Contributions
Considering that according to the source the total share of contributions from energy companies comes out to 2.16% of total contributions, why is this an entire subsection of the article? NPOV is not to give undue weight to disproportional small things, especially when no one has made an issue of this. Therefore, I am going to delete the section, and incorporate into the article. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 19:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

 * "Nuclear questions seep into campaigns" — goethean ॐ 19:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Good example - of something that should be a paragraph about Weller's views on nuclear energy and plant safety, in the sec. Much more of the article is about that than about the $20K in donations.  I've reorganized the article so that it follows the outline of other articles on Representatives, which makes it pretty easy to add such a paragraph, under "Political actions and positions". Why bury this under "contributors", in a big section, which provides little context, when it can have a paragraph of its own, and a lot more context? John Broughton  |  Talk 20:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

BLP Issues
I have recently been made aware that primary sources cannot be used by theselves in articles for content issues. This article is loaded with them, and unless anyone objects, I will remove them. CENSEI (talk) 14:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

 * CENSEI, your description above is incorrect, please see the Wikipedia policy found at WP:PSTS, which states, "primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia." Some of the citations you deleted were to the Federal Election Commission, which clearly qualifies as a reliable source. Also, you deleted several other SECONDARY sources, such as from The Hill, the Associated Press, and the Center for Responsive Politics / Opensecrets.org. If you have an objection to a source, please be much more specific, rather than deleting an entire section of the article. Propol (talk) 15:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

 * There is no reason to mention or single out donations to Weller by any individual PAC or other source unless a secondary source has done so. Using any of this information without another secondary source mentioning its relevance to Weller specifically, looks like original research. In addition, the secondary sources you mentioned did not mention how any of these are ntoable with respect to Weller. CENSEI (talk) 23:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

 * There are many articles of politicians on Wikipedia that mention individual contributors. Using primary sources, such as the Federal Election Commission, does not constitute original research - the claims are clearly supported by a reliable source. Also, some of the secondary sources that you deleted, such the Associated Press and The Hill articles, directly mention Weller and note the relevance. Not only are these matters relevant, but in some cases (i.e. Duke Cunningham) they are ongoing matters, where Weller is subject to legal action. I agree the section in this article is rather large, so I'll try to trim it down, but I am strongly opposed to blanket deletions. Propol (talk) 12:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Just because one article violates BLP does not give editors carte blanche to perform the same violation in another article, and from the policy page, its not up for negotiation. If not one else reliable finds it notable that Weller accepted campaign money from Cunningham or Abramoff then that piece of information is not notable enough for inclusion. I would suggest that if you want this material included you take it to the notice board. CENSEI (talk) 14:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

 * CENSEI, other reliable sources (e.g. The Hill) DO find Weller's acceptance of contributions from Cunningham notable - it was in their article. Also, other users (DougsTech) have disagreed with your repeated deletions of this information. You have stated on multiple occasions that the information is a violation of BLP, but you fail to offer any specific rationale. I've tried to be cooperative on this matter (I reduced the size of the section), but I think you may be pushing it a bit far. Propol (talk) 11:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

DougsTech reverted me because he though it was vandalism, something he premeptively apologizes for when he is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CENSEI (talk • contribs) 14:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I will break it down, source by source to demonstrate what is wrong here.

"According to Federal Election Commission records, Jerry Weller has received numerous contributions from PAC’s and individuals. The contributors include several energy companies, financial services companies, labor unions, and medical associations, amongst others."

No source and not notable … every politician receives money from PAC’s and individuals.

"Two individuals linked to Duke Cunningham, a former congressman who pleaded guilty to federal charges of conspiracy to commit bribery, mail fraud, wire fraud, and tax evasion, contributed to Weller: Mitchell Wade, the former president of defense intelligence firm MZM Inc, who pleaded guilty to several charges in February 2006, and Brent Wilkes, a co-conspirator. Wade, Wilkes, their family members and their companies’ PACs donated $20,000 to Weller. Chris Kennedy, a spokesman for Weller, said in November 2005 that the donations probably originated from Weller’s support of the research-and-development tax credit, and that the issue of giving back the money had not been discussed.[18] [19]"

So far, the Hill News is the only source that mentions this in any detail, and even then its only a few sentences. Now, is a few sentences in The Hill, worth several paragraphs on Wikipedia, or is this a violation of WP:WEIGHT?

"Weller accepted a contribution directly from Jack Abramoff, a former lobbyist who has been convicted on multiple charges pertaining to public corruption. Weller also received donations from clients represented by Abramoff, mainly Indian tribes.[20][21]"

Both primary sources, no indication as to how they the information is notable.

"Upon Abramoff's indictment, Weller donated the amount of his contribution to charity.[22]"

Source is a list of all the politicians who gave money back that they receive from Abramoff. It does not mention how any name in the list is more or less significant or notable than the others. And after going through many of the other names on that list, the information is nowhere to be found in their respective biographies.

"Weller accepted a donation from Americans for a Republican Majority, also called ARMPAC, which was formed by Tom DeLay.[23]"

Only sources is a primary one, no notability.

"Weller received donations from Exelon Corporation, the parent company of Commonwealth Edison, an electric utility serving Weller’s district. Exelon owns three nuclear power plants in Weller's district and is being sued by Will County residents and the State's Attorney due to leaks of radioactive tritium at the Braidwood Nuclear Generating Station and the Dresden Nuclear Power Plant.[24]"

What does one have to do with the other? Sounds like guilt by association and I not know what the reliability of the Environmental News Service is. If the ENS story was picked up by a known media outlet, it would be appropriate for inclusion in Exceleon’s article, considering that the source does not even mention Weller.

"The radioactive leaks have contaminated well water above the Environmental Protection Agency's federal drinking water standard. Weller sent a letter to Exelon Corp expressing his concern and recommended that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission investigate the power plants in question.[25]"

Interesting, this should be added to another section of the article.

"In 2002, a Federal Election Commission audit found a fund used by Weller for his re-election in 2000 received almost $110,000 that appeared to have violated federal campaign rules on the size and source of donations. Weller's fund returned all of the questioned contributions but did not admit violating any laws. [5]"

Source is no longer active, cannot verify. CENSEI (talk) 14:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

 * A dead link is not an appropriate basis for deletion. Propol (talk) 12:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I disagree. If the material cannot be be found elsewhere, and if the original is unavailable, then there is no way to verify the infomation. CENSEI (talk) 14:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Your disagreement is with WP:RS, and you need to take up your issues there. — goethean ॐ 21:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I have not disagreement with the reliability of the source, only with its interpretation. As we have see with this article sources that are normally very reliable and high quality have been misused to turn this into an attack page, something you have been a large part of, and I am not going to just take your word for it in this instance. CENSEI (talk) 14:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Amd while I am on it, do you disagree with any of my other deletions, and if so why did you undo my edits as many times as you did? CENSEI (talk) 14:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Cunningham subpoena
Five and a half years later do we know how this was resolved?
 * Weller is currently fighting a subpoena to testify in Cunningham's trial.
 * Weller, Hastert challenge Cunningham subpoenas by Jim Tankersley Chicago Tribune September 19, 2007

-- Pemilligan (talk) 23:48, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

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