text:
Talk:Frame Relay

But do you know what the consequences of using Frame Relay are and in what scenarios it is good to use it?

Is the key to Frame Relay the utilization of existing telephone wires and infrastructure? After reading this page I fail to grasp the principal reason for its existence.

Descriptive Image of Protocol
It would be nice if someone included an image or a table layout of what the Frame Relay header/protocol looks like. Having a text only description of the header makes undestanding or even just imagining it quite hard. The type of switching used for frame relay should be included here.

+++

Here is a good link to the cisco site (NO PREFERNCE FOR THIS VENDOR INDICATED)

http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/cisintwk/ito_doc/frame.htm

This article needs help!
This article needs a basic description of the technology upfront. For those with low to medium knowledge needing a basic techincal description, there is no jumping-off point. A good, basic description of how it works and how it varies from other models would help clarify. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.68.204.87 (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I second that. It's repetitive and not clear, especially in the first section. Also I endorse the idea of a simple diagram. maxcelcat. —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Speed vz X.25
The X.25 standard was upgraded in 1992 to accomodate 2 Mbps speeds. If FR is 20 times faster, where is the info that says FR is available at 80 Mbps?--itpastorn (talk) 09:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

 * FR is typically provided over T3 at 44 Mbps (and 20 x 2 = 40 != 80). Dgtsyb (talk) 13:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair comparison?
I heard Frame Relay mentioned as the "Poor man's ATM". Is that assertion practically correct? 82.131.210.162 (talk) 10:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

This article needs help!
This article needs help. Frame relay is quite important.--MrBobla (talk) 13:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Frame Relay Origins
Frame relay is a the y un substitutional relay to the one hop to another hop for substinated by he naturale atomicaly sercumtances to delivered of send the data packets any instance.this should be prefered to managed of atomicaly undeclorated of that time prefered by the frame relay process.

My recollection from the time is that AT&T and Sprint and others were offering proprietary modifications to X.25. The modifications were not so involved with throwing away error correction as in removing the hop-by-hop store-and-forward nature of X.25 that mostly impacted performance. These proprietary networks (I believe AT&T's version was called Accunet) performed end-to-end acknowledgement rather than hop-by-hop store-and-forward acknowledgement increasing the performance of network switches dramatically. As I recall, the standardization effort was primarily to provide a common basis for these and other advances over X.25 (such as dynamic multiplexing with fast-packet techologies). Fast-packet technologies went further than reducing the cost of hop-by-hop store-and-forward, which basically removed layer 3 and half of layer 2 at interior switches, by having the terminating switch simply discard errors. However, this was not due to the high cost of requesting end-to-end retransmissions, but rather because ISDN clear-channel requirements had increased the accuracy of networks from 10E-03 to 10E-05 or 10E-06, meaning that retransmissions were seldom required anyway. (I don't think that one can really call this best-effort, particularly as the term is used in Internet Protocol routers.) Although I am sure that AT&T and Sprint and others patented their is a un substitu individual approaches, I don't know that Sprint was first or could be attributed with "inventing" frame relay. Recent changes to the article including such claims need to be substantiated with proper references. Also, I have references that indicate that Sprint was late out of the chute in deploying frame-relay, even though Nortel (a major supplier of Sprint at the time) was offering it on their DMS SuperNodes earlier. — Dgtsyb (talk) 00:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My first job out of undergrad was working on the Frame Relay service at AT&T Bell Labs in 1989. It was falling out of favor at the time due to changing economic forecasts and I was moved over to SONET. However, I'm a bit surprised to see a patent issued to Nortel some 15 years later. My manager was supposedly deeply involved in bringing it along. It was definitely related to X.25, which was also run out of our team. Ronnotel (talk) 17:48, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

loom
What is the contextual meaning of the word 'loom' in this sentence from the article?: "the end may loom for the frame relay protocol and encapsulation". From dictionary.com the verb definition of loom says this: "to appear indistinctly; come into view in indistinct and enlarged form". (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loom?s=t). Would the referenced article sentence using loom be correct if written as follows?: "the end may [appear indistinctly] for the frame relay protocol and encapsulation". Thanks in advance for clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbudge1  (talk • contribs) 21:32, 11 April 2015 (UTC

 * The Oxford dictionary of American English says it can mean "Appear as a shadowy form, especially one that is large or threatening" or "(Of an event regarded as ominous or threatening) seem about to happen"; the latter of those two is presumably what's intended.

 * But if you are really saying "that's not exactly encyclopedic writing", you are correct - it's not. Guy Harris (talk) 21:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean?
What does this sentence mean? Specifically, the words "the end may loom". "the end may loom for the frame relay protocol and encapsulation". Thanks in advance for clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbudge1 (talk • contribs) 22:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC

 * As per the OED's answer to your previous question, it means "the end of [the use of] the frame relay protocol and encapsulation may seem about to happen"; what they presumably meant was that it may be the case that the use of Frame Relay will come to an end soon. AT&T still seems to offer it in the US, although the "Plan" tab on that page says that a VPN might be better for some (many?) customers, and their Network Services page doesn't mention Frame Relay (or ATM) unless you hover over "Network Services" in the page's menu. In addition, https://www.broadband-forum.org/about/forumhistory.php the Frame Relay Forum got merged into other forums several times], and the resulting group is now "the central organization driving broadband wireline solutions and empowering converged packet networks worldwide to better meet the needs of vendors, service providers and their customers.", and more IP and MPLS oriented, using ATM mainly as an IP transport in some cases (such as ADSL). Guy Harris (talk) 23:02, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Plagiarism/Failure to Cite
The second paragraph of this article (beginning with "Network providers commonly implement Frame Relay for voice and data as an encapsulation..." is a word-for-word copy of a passage from page 128 of the book "Accessing the WAN. CCNA Exploration Companion Guide" by Bob Vachon and Rick Graziani, isbn: 978-1-58713-349-7, published 2008 by Cisco Press. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.134.224.214 (talk) 02:49, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Proposed merge
'''Oppose. Delete instead'''. User:Kvng has proposed merging FRF.12 into this article, removing the WP:PROD placed there by User:Piotrus. However, there is nothing to merge. The FRF.12 article has no sources and is obviously original research. We don't merge content that is not according to policy. Delete FRF.12. —Prhartcom ♥ 23:07, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
 * There doesn't seem to be a policy as you describe. The best I could find is this discussion. Let me know if I'm missing something. I have always taken care to make sure that the material I merge in to an article is of similar or better quality. I think the strongest deletionist argument you can make make is that the material involved in the merge needs to be verifyable which is critically different form a demand that it be cited. Is the material cited? No. Can we find citations? Yes, , , . I didn't actually mean to start an argument about whether this merge should be done, I thought it was a no-brainer. I put up the banners mostly as a reminder to myself to do the merge at some point. ~Kvng (talk) 23:23, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Considering that this article has only two inline refs, merge would require substantial effort for verification. It is unlikely someone will do it. I have no problem leaving the merge notice for now, but if no action is taken for few months, AfD for this mess would be the next step. If User:Prhartcom where to start an AfD soon, I'd vote delete; this article does not meet criteria for stand alone articles in our project. PS. User:Kvng, what sources? You cite 4 manfucaturer documents, including a support forum and a manual. Those are primary/self-published at best. PPS. Actually, I got confused and thought about the Frame Relay article, which is pretty poor, lol. I realize we are talking about FRF.12. Dude, seriously, there are limits to the kind of garbage we can try to save, and once again I am concerned about you wasting community efforts through making me and others spend AfD time on such trash. For now I am going to be bold and redirect this here. Nothing to salvage from merge as the source has no references, and yours do not meet our requirements for WP:CITE/WP:RS. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:31, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Primary sources are fine for this sort of thing and the Cisco sources are not exactly primary because Cisco didn't invent the technology, they implemented it and have a role teaching their users about it. As I said above, If you consider this to be a mess or garbage or whatever, you really need to get out more - a lot of articles on technical topics are in this shape or worse. That does not mean we should WP:DEMOLISH them. The disrespect you show to others work really annoys me. I am reverting your redirect. I routinely wait a year before acting on merge proposals - WP:NODEADLINE. I suspect you'll take this to AfD and then complain again that I'm wasting your time. ~Kvng (talk) 14:13, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Kvng, it's okay. You don't appear to want the existance of the separate article, you proposed the merge, so go ahead and merge the few FRF.12 sentences into a new section of this article, providing cited sources. —Prhartcom ♥ 14:19, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I intend to but, it may be next year. I have other merges to do. ~Kvng (talk) 14:32, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Burying the material under a redirect is not helpful to readers or other editors who may have time to take care of this before I get back to it. Please leave FRF.12. If you are impatient about this, please do the merge yourself or take it to AfD. ~Kvng (talk) 14:38, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * We have a 2:1 editor majority opinion here that FRF.12 can be left as a redirect. Edit history is preserved there for you to merge it when you get around to it. I think it's a better compromise that wasting people's time on AfD. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here  15:25, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for performing the merge. I'm not sure why you also nominated FRF.12 for deletion though. ~Kvng (talk) 14:49, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

US specific information
This sentence is not true for the UK at least, probably not any of Europe as far as I know: "However many rural areas remain lacking DSL and cable modem services. In such cases, the least expensive type of non-dial-up connection remains a 64-kbit/s Frame Relay line."
 * Frame relay is out there in the Asia-Pacific Region and in Canada. Additionally, some ISPs might provide you with an MPLS network, but the local transport might still be frame relay. Bananabananabanana (talk) 02:36, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

What are the specific physical layers?
AFAICT, Frame Relay doesn't define the physical layers, only data link layer. However, the article says that F.R. operates on Layer 1 and 2 (physical and data link).

Perhaps some mention of where F.R. defines the physical layers, otherwise best just to say it operates on layer 2 only (Data Link). Chris Fletcher (talk) 05:07, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure what standards specify what "Frame Relay" is, but I.233 "Integrated Services Digital Network, General Structure and Service Capabilities, Frame Mode Bearer Services", says in section 4.2 "Normal procedures" that "On the user side of the S or T reference point, Recommendation I.430 or I.431 provides the layer 1 protocol for the U (user) and C (control) planes. The C-plane uses the D-channel with Recommendations Q.921 and Q.933 as the layer 2 and 3 protocols respectively", and in section 3.1 "General description" that "The U-plane procedures at layer 1 are based on Recommendations I.430/I.431. Layer 2 procedures are based on the core functions of Recommendation Q.922 (see § 3.1.1). These layer 2 core functions allow for the statistical multiplexing of user information flows immediately above layer 1 functions. This bearer service provides the bidirectional transfer of service data units (frames) from one S or T reference point to another with the order preserved."

 * I.430 and I.431 are ISDN BRI and PRI, respectively. Q.921 and Q.922 are what might be thought of as the "Frame Relay" protocol (at least by those of us who are developers for protocol analyzers :-)).

 * Q.921/Q.922 can probably run over any lower-level service that provides a bit stream, so it could probably be run over one or more time slots on a T-carrier or E-carrier line.

 * So I guess you could say it can run over ISDN's layer 1, and was perhaps originally specified to run over BRI or PRI but can run over other bit-stream services. While, in theory, the full set of specs for "Frame Relay" specify level 1 standards (ISDN), it's probably best to think of Frame Relay as a layer 2 standard running atop various layer 1 mechanisms, not all of which were specified by the original ITU-T "Frame Mode" recommendations. Guy Harris (talk) 09:38, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Frame Relay


text:
Franz von Mercy

Franz Freiherr von Mercy (or Merci), Lord of Mandre and Collenburg (c. 1597 – 3 August 1645), was a German field marshal in the Thirty Years' War who fought for the Imperial side and was commander-in-chief of the Bavarian army from 1643 to 1645. In that role, he destroyed a French army at Tuttlingen (1643), stalemated another at Freiburg (1644), destroyed a third French army at Herbsthausen (1645) and was killed at the Second Battle of Nördlingen (1645).

Early life and career
Franz von Mercy was born at Longwy around 1597. His parents were Pierre Ernest de Mercy († 1619), governor of Longwy and Chamberlain of Duke Charles III of Lorraine, and Anne du Hautoy. Of his many siblings, his brothers Heinrich (1596–1659) and Kaspar (1600–1644) also became generals in the Imperial or Bavarian army. Franz entered military service most likely in the army of the Catholic League around the beginning of the Thirty Years' War and changed over to imperial service later on. In 1625 he held the rank of captain in the regiment of Hannibal von Schauenburg and in 1626 he was mentioned as chamberlain of Archduke Leopold V of Tyrol.

By 1630 he had attained the rank of Obristwachtmeister, and after distinguishing himself at the first Battle of Breitenfeld, where the Imperial army was destroyed and Mercy wounded, he commanded a regiment of foot with the rank of Obrist on the Rhine. He repelled a Swedish attack led by Gustaf Horn on Konstanz in 1633. For his brother Ludwig (born 1614), who died of his injuries at the age of 19 on 6 October 1633 shortly after the last attack by the Swedes, Franz von Mercy had an artistic bronze epitaph made in the Konstanz Minster, which is still preserved today. On 2 March 1634, Mercy was taken prisoner in a battle near Thann against the Rhine Count Otto Louis of Salm-Kyrburg-Mörchingen. He was exchanged and from April onward he defended Rheinfelden against a Swedish siege, surrendering on 29 August after running out of food.

He became a general with the rank of General-Feldwachtmeister, and in 1635, 1636 and 1637 took part in further campaigns under command of Duke Charles IV of Lorraine on the Rhine and Doubs. In 1636 the Imperial army stationed in Lorraine and Burgundy under Matthias Gallas planned an attack on Paris from the south, but was stopped by French troops under Bernard of Saxe-Weimar. In the course of these campaigns Mercy took part in the siege of Colmar and in the successful relief of the French-besieged Dole in 1636. He besieged Héricourt unsuccessfully from 2 to 26 January 1637 and in June 1637 was defeated by Bernard at Gray with the loss of 1,000 men.

Bavarian general
In September 1638, the elector of Bavaria made him Generalfeldzeugmeister in the army of Bavaria, then the second largest army in Germany. During 1639, he screened the Imperial siege of Hohentwiel Castle under field marshal Geleen against attacks from the Breisgau. Confronted with a French-Weimarian incursion of the Lower Palatinate under the Duke of Longueville, Mercy and Geleen turned north, crossed the Rhine at Speyer and entrenched themselves in front of Longueville's army. In November, Longueville entered the Rheingau but was soon pushed back by Mercy and Geleen who ended their campaign with regaining Alzey and Bacharach. The following year, Mercy took part at the campaign of the main Imperial army under Archduke Leopold Wilhelm and Ottavio Piccolomini against the Swedes under Johan Banér. Mercy helped prevent the Swedes from invading Franconia. Repelling the Swedes and their allies to Hesse-Kassel, the Imperials and Bavarians laid in camp near Fritzlar for weeks in the immediate vicinity of their opponents. As both sides avoided a major battle, the Archduke concluded his campaign with capturing Höxter at the Weser river in October. Mercy himself returned to south-west Germany in late autumn.

Mercy protected the Imperial Diet in Regensburg with his troops from a Swedish attack by Banér in January 1641. When the thawing of the icy Danube stopped the Swedish advance, Imperial and Bavarian troops rallied and forced the Swedes to retreat in flight. In pursuit of the Swedes into Bohemia, the vanguard under Mercy's brother Kaspar repulsed the Swedish rearguard under Erik Slang into Neunburg vorm Wald, where they capitulated to the Imperial-Bavarian army under Piccolomini and Franz von Mercy after several days resistance. Banér escaped just ahead of Mercy and Piccolomini over the Preßnitz Pass into Saxony. Continuing on the heels of the Swedes, Mercy had to hand over command to his superior Joachim Christian von Wahl at Zeitz on 1 May. Without Banér, who died en route, the Swedes joined the Lüneburg army sieging Wolfenbüttel. In an attempt to relieve the fortress, Mercy ambushed and captured 500 besiegers on 28 June. The next day, he commanded the left wing in battle against the siege army, who could not driven from their positions. Only after Imperial and Bavarian forces had captured numerous towns in the surrounding countryside, their opponents abandonded the siege of Wolfenbüttel in September. Until winter, Mercy took part in the capture of Einbeck and a futile siege of Göttingen in November.

In 1642 he received the command of the Bavarian troops in Swabia. In the course of the year he drove the opposing troops from Swabia and parts of the Breisgau. He was appointed a member of the Fruitbearing Society by Louis I, Prince of Anhalt-Köthen. Mercy was now considered one of the foremost soldiers in Europe, and was made Generalfeldmarschall on 31 May 1643. In 1643 he prevented the Weimarian army under the French Marshal Guébriant from invading Bavaria. As the successor to Wahl, who was in poor health, he also assumed command of the entire Bavarian army. He destroyed the French Marshal Rantzau's Weimarian army at the Battle of Tuttlingen (24–25 November), capturing the marshal and 7,000 men.

In 1644, Mercy opposed the French armies, now under the Great Condé and the Vicomte de Turenne. He captured Freiburg and subsequently held it in an inconclusive but bloody battle in August. On 2 May 1645, he defeated Turenne at Mergentheim. Later in 1645, fighting once more against Condé and Turenne, Mercy was killed by a musket ball at the Battle of Nördlingen (or Allerheim) on 3 August while leading reinforcements to the focus of the action. On the spot where he fell, a memorial stone with the inscription Sta, viator, heroem calcas! ("Halt, traveler; you tread upon a hero!") was set up, allegedly at Condé's instruction. His body was first brought to Donauwörth on an artillery wagon and then to Ingolstadt the next day, where he was buried in the Church of Saint Maurice. The French Marshal Gramont, who had been captured at the battle, reports of the exuberant reception that Mercy received from the people of the city who had hurried to the gates. He was very popular and highly regarded in Ingolstadt, where he had been the fortress commander and governor.

Marriages and issue
Mercy was married three times. His first wife was Anna Margareta Bonn von Wachenheim who died around 1628 and made Mercy her sole heir. In 1630, Mercy married Anna Margareta von Schauenburg († 1636), a daughter of Johann Rainer von Schauenburg, the Landvogt of Ortenau. They had at least one daughter, Claudia (1631 – 1708) who later married Graf Bonaventura von Fugger (1619 – 1693), the first son of Otto Heinrich Fugger. The last wife of Franz von Mercy was Maria Magdalena von Flachsland who gave birth to most of his children, including three sons and one daughter who survived their childhood. All sons joined either the Austrian or the bavarian military. The first son Max Leopold inherited Mercy's own Bavarian Regiment and later became imperial Generalfeldwachtmeister. The second son Peter Ernst von Mercy died in Austrian service deadly wounded in the Siege of Buda 1686, his son was Count Claude Florimond de Mercy, generally recognized as the last male descendant of Franz von Mercy. The third son Ferdinand Franz died in 1683 as commander of the Bavarian fortress of Ingolstadt.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Franz von Mercy


text:
Talk:Car of the Year

Forgotten homonym
"COTY", from which I was redirected to here, is in fact now the world's leading fragances company (for both of mass and prestige fragrances). Nothing much to do with a car of the year... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.110.106.226 (talk) 17:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Contractor of the Year
I was sent here through COTY. CotY is also known as Contractor of the Year, an award given out by the National Association of the Remodeling Industry. Nothing to do with cars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.36.64.42 (talk) 20:33, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Where???
The articles states "Although other similar awards exist in other parts of the world" but it does not say in what part of the world it is presented in the first place. Seems like rather a big Omission! Somebody who knows the answer should fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.199.146 (talk) 20:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

page mvove
to something like "X's Car of the Year" this is stated right now now some sort of indisputable fact, it isnt. Only magazine X awards it at their discretion.(Lihaas (talk) 19:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC)).

Other markets
Anything for China, Germany, South Korea? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.158.139.100 (talk) 07:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Brazil, Mexico, Thailand? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.144.23.213 (talk) 15:09, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Sample Results section duplication
Since the Sample Results section duplicates other pages, maintaining the tables will be double work. What is the upside? Also the awards chosen are recent awards, as opposed to awards with more history. Especially as the table's include random awards like Road & Travel's International Car of the Year. WP:UNDUE? PLawrence99cx (talk) 20:03, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Car of the Year


text:
Sylvia Porter

Sylvia Field Porter (June 18, 1913 – June 5, 1991) was an American economist, journalist and author. At the height of her career, her readership was greater than 40 million people.

Early life
Porter was born in Patchogue, New York, on Long Island as Sylvia Field Feldman to Louis and Rose Maisel Feldman. Originally majoring in English literature, she switched to economics and finance given the impact of the Stock Market Crash of 1929. It has been suggested that her fiancé, bank employee Reed Porter, was relying upon Sylvia to explain the complications of the worldwide financial panic. They were married in 1931.

She graduated magna cum laude from Hunter College in 1932, and her expertise in government bonds enabled her to get a job as assistant to the president of an investment counseling firm. Working 12-hour days, she quickly learned more about the bond market, currency fluctuations and movements of the price of gold. In her spare time, she pursued an MBA at New York University.

Writing career
Starting in 1934 as S. F. Porter, she published a newsletter devoted exclusively to U.S. government bonds, and was able to persuade the New York Post to hire her to write a thrice-weekly financial column.

She also began writing a financial column for American Banker, and published How To Make Money in Government Bonds (1939), the first book to cover all phases of government finance as well as to explain it in plain language. This was followed by If War Comes to the American Home, which relied upon simple language and interesting anecdotes to explain national defense to the average reader. In 1938, S.F. Porter became financial editor for the Post. It was not until 1942 that most of Porter's avid readers learned that their most trusted financial wizard was not a wise old man, but an attractive 29-year-old woman. The Post had concluded, correctly, that the widely respected columnist would be accepted regardless of gender. The "revelation" paved the way for Sylvia Porter to go on the radio, and the program What Can I Do? began regular broadcast from New York's WJZ.

In 1959, Porter received an honorary degree from Bates College. She continued to add to her bibliography of bestsellers about the world of finance. In February 1966 Porter advised President Lyndon B. Johnson on the appointment of Andrew Brimmer, the first African American to the serve on the Federal Reserve Board.

In 1975, she published Sylvia Porter's Money Book, subtitled "How to Earn It, Spend It, Save It, Invest It, Borrow It and Use It to Better Your Life". In addition to her regular newspaper column, Porter wrote monthly articles for the Ladies Home Journal during the years 1965 to 1982. After 43 years with the Post, she hired on with the New York Daily News in 1978. From 1984 to 1987, she had 400,000 subscribers to her magazine, Sylvia Porter's Personal Finance. In the 1980s, her name was attached to a series of personal finance software packages for home computers. In 1985, she received the Foreign Language Advocate Award from the Northeast Conference on the Teaching of Foreign Language in recognition of her support for language study in published columns. Her final work was Your Finances in the 1990s.

Personal life
She married banker Reed Porter in 1931. She died on June 5, 1991, in Pound Ridge, New York.

Books
A list of books authored by Sylvia Porter.

 * 1) How to Make Money in Government Bonds, 1939
 * 2) If War Comes to the American Home, 1941
 * 3) How to Live Within Your Income, 1948
 * 4) Money and You, 1949
 * 5) Managing Your Money, 1953
 * 6) Sylvia Porter's Income Tax Guide, 1960 (annual)
 * 7) How to Get More for Your Money, 1961
 * 8) Sylvia Porter's Money Book: How to Earn It, Spend It, Save It, Invest It, Borrow It and Use It to Better Your Life, 1975

title: Sylvia Porter


text:
Aviatik C.I

The Aviatik C.I was an observation aircraft which came into service during World War I in April 1915. It was a development of the Aviatik B.I and B.II models, being one of first aircraft of the new German C class of armed biplanes. In the C.I the observer sat in front of the pilot, with a machine-gun clipped on a sliding mounting fitted on a rail at either side of the cockpit. It gave the crew the means to attack enemy aircraft. The positions of the pilot and observer were reversed in last series of 50, ordered in 1917 solely for trainer purpose. There was only one aircraft built of refined C.Ia version in May 1916, with armament still in a forward cab, serving as a prototype for C.III. Later models of the plane included the Aviatik C.II and the C.III, which had more powerful engines. The C.III was produced in large numbers.

548 Aviatik C.I were built in total: 402 by Aviatik (including 51 trainers and 1 C.Ia) and 146 by Hannover.

Variants

 * C.I
 * Primary model

 * C.I(Han)
 * Primary model licence-built by Hannover, initially designated Hannover C.I

 * C.I trainer
 * Last series of 50 plus a prototype manufactured in 1917, with a machine gun in rear cab.

 * C.Ia
 * Prototype for C.III, flown in May–June 1916.

 * C.II
 * This model was powered by a 149 kW (200 hp) Benz Bz.IV engine. it was not produced in quantity.

 * C.III
 * The C.III was a 1916 refinement which was operated until 1917.

Operators

 * Austria-Hungary
 * KuKLFT
 * German Empire
 * Luftstreitkrafte
 * Romanian Air Corps
 * Kingdom of Yugoslavia
 * Royal Yugoslav Air Force - Postwar
 * Royal Yugoslav Air Force - Postwar

title: Aviatik C.I


text:
User:Squall Leonheart

gros con

title: User:Squall Leonheart


text:
Talk:Squamish Five

Redirect from Direct Action
Is it reasonable that this page is a redirect from Direct Action, surely that should redirect to Direct action, the concept rather than the specific group. (User:KevinGillan)

Unnecessary references
A few references which didn't seem necessary to add to the main page: —mvcorks
 * http://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/herstory/rhvideo.html
 * http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/2002-1/issue6/ar-notsoradical.html

Requesting verification
Is there any verification on the claim under "Litton Industries bombing" that they actually drove all the way from Vancouver to Toronto? I only ask because personally, I would fly there and then steal the pickup truck and fill it with 250kg of dynamite. I just find it incredibly implausible (and stupid) that any human being would fill a stolen vehicle with that much volatile explosive material, and then drive approximately 3000 kilometres through several provincial borders. Anyways, I'm just posing the question. Mk623SC20K 21:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Flying, instead of having to be questioned by the guards at all those provincial border crossings! Most excellent idea comrade! That way we can sneeze without igniting an explosion! Now, the truckload of dynamite, should we put that in checked baggage, or carry-on?

What are these 'Provincial Border Guards' you speak of? I drove across Canada several times and haven't seen any. This must be a new thing. They didn't have them in the 80's-90's70.79.146.225 (talk) 19:55, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Source?

 * Pinkoski, M. 2003 From Pots and Pans to Guns and Bombs: Women and Direct Action MA thesis, Carleton University. (A thesis on women and direct action that uses the Squamish Five as a case study for the analysis).  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pete.Hurd (talk • contribs) 18:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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Ideology
An explanation of their ideology would be helpful.Bill (talk) 20:17, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Squamish Five


text:
Death Machine

Death Machine is a 1994 science fiction horror film written and directed by Stephen Norrington. It stars Brad Dourif, Ely Pouget, William Hootkins, John Sharian, and Richard Brake. Rachel Weisz, still early in her career at the time of the film's release, appears briefly in the role of a Junior Executive. The film was the directorial debut of Norrington, who had previously worked as a special effects artist on films such as Lifeforce, Aliens, Hardware, The Witches, and Split Second. However, Norrington infamously expressed dissatisfaction with the original cut, and the film has undergone numerous re-edits since.

The film garnered controversy for both its excessive violence and Dourif's character. These factors resulted in the film being banned in several countries, including Sri Lanka, Iran, China, Malaysia, Iraq, and Australia. Despite the controversy, the film received mixed reviews. Many critics praised the special effects, but criticised the acting and plot.

Plot
In 2003, the megacorporation Chaank Armaments is the world's leading manufacturer of cutting-edge weapons and military hardware. A cybernetically-enhanced supersoldier, codenamed "Hard Man", malfunctions and massacres the patrons of a diner before being detained by security operatives led by John Carpenter. Public outcry ensues following the incident, the majority of complaints directed at the company's new chief executive Hayden Cale.

Chairman of the Board Scott Ridley, fearful of the potential termination of Chaank's contracts due to the bad publicity, tries to cover up the incident and numerous issues with Project: Hard Man itself. Cale demands full public disclosure, having purposely leaked top-secret documents to the press in defiance of Ridley's attempts to suppress knowledge about his shadier activities. She also demands for Jack Dante, a weapon designer and lead developer of Project: Hard Man, to be fired. Despite Carpenter's acknowledgement of the project's fatal flaws, the board ignores Cale's requests, no one seeming to care about her interests except for Dante himself. Cale is warned by a junior executive about Dante's deranged behavior and the fate of Nicholson, her late predecessor. Cale goes to confront him, demanding to know about Dante's secret project in Vault 10, for which he never submits progress reports. Far from cooperative, Dante threatens Cale, blackmailing her with detailed knowledge of Cale's living situation, place of residence, and personal information. Cale asks Ridley for help, but he refuses, saying that Nicholson took a similar interest in Dante's work. However, he was killed in a mysterious accident believed to have been an animal mauling. During their confrontation, Cale lifts Ridley's access card so she can investigate on her own. Dante learns that Cale has the card and confronts Ridley, subsequently killing him with a mysterious weapon.

Meanwhile, three eco-warriors (Raimi, Weyland, and Yutani) infiltrate the Chaank headquarters to destroy its digitally-stored assets and send the company into bankruptcy. Carpenter calls Cale after finding Ridley's corpse which had an implanted life-sign transmitter. She investigates Ridley's death and discovers that whatever killed him came from Vault 10. Taking matters into her own hands, she terminates Dante's employment and seals the vault. Dante is about to shoot her when the eco-warriors show up and take everyone hostage. They demand access to the building's secure area to destroy the company's digital bonds, but Cale refuses to cooperate. Raimi goes to their alternate plan to cut through the bulkhead leading to the containment area. Dante, sensing his chance, "helps" them by suggesting they cut through one of the vaults surrounding the containment instead, suggesting they start at Vault 10.

Once the vault is open, Dante jumps in and activates his invention called the Frontline Morale Destroyer (a.k.a. "Warbeast"), which kills Weyland. Raimi flees, meeting up with Yutani as well as the subdued Cale and Carpenter. Dante broadcasts his demands over the monitor system, demanding that his employment be reinstated and Cale to "interface with him on a regular basis".

Raimi and Yutani cancel their operation in an attempt to escape from the building, along with Carpenter and Cale. Carpenter is killed by the Warbeast inside of a lift. Later on, Raimi, Yutani and Cale reach the building's top floor, which holds classified items, whose existence even Cale is unaware of. Among the classified items are the primary components of Project: Hard Man, including advanced weaponry and armour. Raimi suits up and downloads the Hard Man data into his brain. Fighting off the Warbeast, he slows it down enough to allow an escape via an outdoor service elevator. Yutani, however, is killed by the Warbeast after hitting his head and falling in front of it. Making it back to the surface, Raimi and Cale have an encounter with an officer who is killed by the Warbeast as it leaps down from the rooftop. It chases Cale and Raimi back into the building. Raimi manages to partially incapacitate the Warbeast. However, the explosion knocks him unconscious. The machine takes Cale back to Dante. During their conversation, Raimi regains consciousness and subdues Dante. The two escape, and Hayden traps Dante inside of Vault 10 with his own Warbeast. Behind Vault 10's reinforced door, Dante starts being hunted by his creation.

Cast

 * Brad Dourif as Jack Dante
 * Ely Pouget as Hayden Cale
 * William Hootkins as John Carpenter
 * John Sharian as Raimi
 * Martin McDougall as Yutani
 * Andreas Wisniewski as Weyland
 * Richard Brake as Scott Ridley
 * Rachel Weisz as Junior Executive

Production
Stephen Norrington had worked as an effects technician in the industry on several high profile films, but by the end of the 80s Norrington began to lose interest in effects work and began pursuing writing with Death Machine being one of a few ideas Norrington considered. While Norrington struggled to find backing for his projects he continued in his field of effects work and met producer Vic Bateman during production of Split Second. Bateman was impressed with Norrington's script Speeder, which was being primed as a possible follow-up to Split Second. Bateman introduced Norrington to fellow producer Dominic Anciano and after reading the script for Death Machine was impressed by the potential worldwide appeal and produced the film as a co-production between Entertainment Film Distributors and Japanese based Victor Company. The film began production at Pinewood Studios in September 1993 with production continuing for a period of three months.

Release
The film's U.S. release was handled by Trimark Pictures who released the film direct to video November 14, 1995.

title: Death Machine


text:
Ralph Brown

Ralph William John Brown (born 18 June 1957) is an English actor and writer, known for playing Danny the drug dealer in Withnail and I, the security guard Aaron (a.k.a. "85") in Alien 3, DJ Bob Silver in The Boat That Rocked aka Pirate Radio, super-roadie Del Preston in Wayne's World 2, the pilot Ric Olié in Star Wars: Episode I – The Phantom Menace, and Henry Clinton in Turn: Washington's Spies. He won the Samuel Beckett Award for his first play Sanctuary written for Joint Stock Theatre Company in 1987, and the Raindance and Sapporo Film Festival awards for his first screenplay for the British film New Year's Day in 2001.

Early life
Brown was born in Cambridge, the son of Heather R. and John F. W. Brown. He has 2 younger brothers, Paul and Andrew. He lived in Portsmouth, Hampshire until the age of seven, then moved to East Sussex where he attended Lewes Priory School. He graduated from the London School of Economics and Political Science with a Bachelor of Laws (LLB) in 1979.

Films
His film roles include Dil's on-off boyfriend Dave in the Academy Award-winning film The Crying Game, Danny the drug dealer in Withnail & I, Great Train Robber Ronnie Biggs in Buster, roadie Del Preston in Wayne's World 2, teacher and rugby league player Phil in Up 'n' Under, prison guard captain Mr Burton in Mean Machine, Sgt Major Harris in the Paul Schrader film Dominion: Prequel to the Exorcist, and CIA renegade Mr Collins alongside Wesley Snipes in The Contractor. In 1997, Brown appeared in Steven Spielberg's slavery epic Amistad. In 2007, he was cast in Caught in the Act, an independent British film. Brown starred as DJ Bob Silver in The Boat That Rocked aka Pirate Radio (2009), written and directed by Richard Curtis, Huge directed by Ben Miller (2009), The Kid (2010), directed by Nick Moran, Mission: London, a Bulgarian comedy directed by Dimitar Mitoviski which premiered in Sofia on 13 April 2010, and Sus (2010), written by Barrie Keeffe and directed by Robert Heath. He worked on the film Killing Bono (2010) and the feature film Dark Tide (2010) in Cape Town, opposite Halle Berry, I, Anna (2011) with Gabriel Byrne and Charlotte Rampling, then went on to work on Tower Block (2012) in London, Jack the Giant Slayer (2013) directed by Bryan Singer, and Stoker (2013) in Nashville, directed by Park Chan-wook. In 2018 he appeared in Final Score with Dave Bautista, directed by Scott Mann, about West Ham United's now-abandoned Boleyn Ground. He worked with Will Smith in Ang Lee's Gemini Man (2019).

Television
Among TV appearances, Brown appeared as PC Pete Muswell in The Bill from 1985 to 1986; guest starred as Captain Carlisle in A Touch of Frost in 1996; appeared in Dennis Potter's Karaoke in 1995; portrayed Prince John in the BBC's adaptation of Sir Walter Scott's Ivanhoe in 1997; appeared as John Geddes in the ITV post-apocalyptic drama serial The Last Train; appeared as the moustachioed policeman Wintersgill in the Channel 4/Showtime series Cape Wrath; and did a memorable turn as shaven-headed gang-boss "Miami Vice" in the 2000 series Lock, Stock...The Series.

In 2005, he appeared in Coronation Street as Barney, roadie to Status Quo, and with Julia Davis in the cult TV sitcom Nighty Night as perverted new-age sex therapist Jacques. In 2007, he appeared in the final two episodes of Life on Mars as Frank Morgan, an interim DCI in 1973 sequences, and Sam's (John Simm's) surgeon in 2006 sequences.

Brown played Sarah Solemani's father in Him & Her, which began airing in 2010 and continued through 2014 for BBC Three comedy, winning a BAFTA for the final series, "The Wedding." In 2012, he worked on Inspector George Gently with Martin Shaw, The Poison Tree for ITV, and The Mimic for C4. In 2013, he worked on the aborted Marvin Gaye film Sexual Healing directed by Julian Temple, and the ABC series The Assets in Vilnius, Lithuania. In 2014, he was cast in Babylon for C4 and Elementary for CBS, followed by TURN: Washington's Spies for AMC, playing General Sir Henry Clinton, leader of the redcoats. Brown returned for seasons 3 and 4 of the series. He also played Johann Fennhoff / Ivchenko, in Agent Carter for Marvel, and guest starred on Blacklist.

In 2015 Brown starred in all ten episodes of Legends with Sean Bean, with whom he had worked on Extremely Dangerous in the early 1990s. In 2016-17 he returned to Prague with showrunner Ken Biller to shoot Genius: Einstein for Nat Geo, which premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival in April 2017.

In June 2016, Brown played the role of Bob Clay in the BBC film Reg.

In September 2017 Brown travelled to Guadeloupe for a guest role in the BBC show Death In Paradise.

In 2021, Brown portrayed former U.S. President Lyndon Johnson in two episodes of Godfather of Harlem, a series on EPIX which explores the intersection between the criminal underworld and civil rights movement in the 1960s.

Theatre
In his early years, Brown was involved with the Moving Parts Theatre Company with Rachel Feldberg, Ruth Mackenzie, Anita Lewton, and Saffron Myers. John Godber adapted A Clockwork Orange for Man In The Moon, King's Road, then Brown appeared in West written & directed by Steven Berkoff at the Donmar for five months (also shot for C4), followed by Royal Court Theatre's Panic, Joint Stock's Deadlines, The RSC's Earwig by Paula Milne, and The Everyman in Liverpool playing the title role in Macbeth. He retired from the stage shortly thereafter, and returned briefly 20 years later at The Bush Theatre to play guitar in punk play The Dysfunkshonalz by writer Mike Packer. After only appearing in one play in 30 years Brown joined the company of The Ferryman on Broadway in February 2019 which won four Tony Awards for Best Play, Best Director, Best Set Design and Best Costume. Brown starred as IRA Commander Jimmy Muldoon in The Ferryman, which played at the Bernard B. Jacobs Theatre from 19 February until 7 July 2019.

As a writer
Ralph Brown wrote the play Sanctuary for Joint Stock Theatre Company in 1987 which toured the UK and won the Samuel Beckett Award in 1987 for best first play.

The No-Neck Monsters Theatre Company brought the playwright and actor to Washington, D.C. from London to adapt his 1987 Samuel Beckett Award-winning new play Sanctuary. Re-written as a rap musical for the "No Necks", the show became a successful and controversial production capturing homelessness, runaways and crack hitting the streets of D.C. Scott Davenport Richards wrote the music for the rap musical and it was directed by Gwendolyn Wynne. The first rap musical in the region The Washington Post, NPR, American Theatre Magazine and McNeil/Lehrer Newshour amongst others reported on the production. The production was nominated for three Helen Hayes Awards: Outstanding Resident Musical, Outstanding Lead Actress (Deidre L. Johnson) in a Resident Musical, and Outstanding Sound Design. Performers featured were Teagle F. Bougere, Erik Todd Dellums, Paul G. Griffin, Deidra L. Johnson, Helen Patton and Barbara Robinson.

Writing
Brown has written two plays, both rap musicals: Sanctuary for Joint Stock Theatre Company (Samuel Beckett Award 1987), adapted for the stage in Washington, D.C., as Sanctuary D.C. produced by No-Neck Monsters Theatre Company (three nominations for Helen Hayes Award 1988). His second play The House That Crack Built has never been produced.

Brown wrote the screenplay for the film New Year's Day directed by Suri Krishnamma in 1999, released in 2001 after screening at Sundance Film Festival and winning Raindance Film Festival award in 2001 and Sapporo Film Festival in the same year.

Brown also wrote the screenplays for the abandoned films Red Light Runners, High Times and In God's Footsteps.

He was a regular contributor to the Readers Recommend music blog in The Guardian, now at Song-Bar.com

Social media
Brown joined Twitter in November 2008. His blog is titled My Pop Life.

Personal life
Brown has been married to actress Jenny Jules since 1992. He lives in New York City and is a lifelong fan of Brighton and Hove Albion. When Attila the Stockbroker was the club's DJ at the Withdean Stadium, he put together a version of Sussex by the Sea which featured Brown on saxophone and was played at home matches.

title: Ralph Brown


text:
Talk:Mars Curse

Mars Curse
I don't think Mars is the lowest gravity planet, I think that is Mercury. Mars is probably second on the list.
 * According to NASA, they're tied for surface gravity, Mercury has lowest escape velocity. Not counting Pluto, at least. Peter Grey 21:52, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * What has the low gravity to do with the difficulty of Mars landings? I think this is the very thin atmosphere of Mars, which makes its surface so difficult to reach (intact).--Bricktop 00:36, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Galactic Ghoul
How about merging Galactic Ghoul into this article? That one doesn't seem to have much content, and no room for expansion. Coffee 15:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I merged the article. Coffee 06:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Successful Landers
Last I counted, there were 5 successful landers, Spirit, Oportunity, Pathfinder, and the 2 vikings, not 3. Just making sure my math is right Tuvas 18:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Your math is right. I noticed the same thing before I came to the talk page.  I'm a'gonna fix it.  Georgewilliamherbert 09:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

 * There was a 6th lander, from the Mars 3 mission.. it didn't last for long, but should still be noted. Mlm42 23:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Explanation of curse
''The placement and condition of Mars may lead to a natural creation of this "curse". While Mars is not as simple a target as, say, an Earth orbit, it seems the easiest to reach of all other planets, so that the elaborate care and very low benchmarks set up for missions to the distant outer, or hot, fast-orbiting inner, planets may not be taken. It is also a relatively low-gravity planet, making a tempting target for landing and ambitious orbital projects, again perhaps overstepping the actual ease its small size implies.''

I removed this because it seems to be largely speculation.. perhaps it can be reworded, or sourced? Mlm42 23:05, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge
Actually, I'm planning on merging this article into Exploration of Mars.. i don't think it's important enough to deserve it's own page.. there's not really much to say about it. Mlm42 09:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, but it's certainly worth discussing here to see how others feel about it. Georgewilliamherbert 20:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

 * So, I don't know much about this Mars curse, and how influential it is.. but it seems to me that there isn't a whole lot to say about it beyond a paragraph or two, which makes me think it probably belongs as a section of a bigger article. it seems especially appropriate on Exploration of Mars because of the new table there that lists all launch attempts to Mars so the reader can see at a glance what the Mars curse theory is based on. Mlm42 20:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mars Curse


text:
User talk:Raghumk

'''

DONT PANIC !
'''

 I am Mostly Harmless.

Hi - I posted the section with the same name on my talk page. Could you take part in discussion ? Thanks ARP
Hi - I posted the section with the same name on my talk page. Could you take part in discussion ? Thanks ARP Apovolot (talk) 21:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Raghumk


text:
Category:British royalty

The British monarchs subcategory contains articles about crowned heads of the United Kingdom and its predecessor monarchies. The other categories contain a full range of articles about British royalty, organised by status or by royal house.

Articles about English royalty and Scottish royalty before the union of the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland in 1707 are in:

 * English royalty
 * Scottish royalty

title: Category:British royalty


text:
Talk:Khnum

Untitled
"Lord of things from himself" seems to be a bit of an improperly stated translation. I don't know whether that's a literal translation from the actual syntax of the original, or whether it just wasn't made completely right. But I suppose for an actual answer to that, we'd need to find out who actually wrote that part of the article.

Maybe "Lord of things created from himself" might make no sense?

 * It is probably less accurate than "Lord of created things from himself", which makes sense in Afro-Asiatic languages. "created things" is a noun (and in the original), rather than a verb clause. A more free translation would be "lord of created things, all of which he has created himself", but that doesn't sound like a proper title, so isn't really suitable. "lord of creation" wouldn't quite be accurate - "things" definitely needs to be in there, and it also needs to indicate that it is he who is their creator. "Lord and creator of created things" would be accurate, but again has issue of not sounding like a proper title, but only a description.     06:55, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Chnoumis redirects here
Yet this doesn't seem to be the same Egyptian god as Chnoubis (Xnoubis, Chnoumis, Chnuphis). Could someone make such a page, possibly? 216.227.117.69 (talk) 18:18, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, they are, in fact, the same god in origin. See e.g. Attilo Mastrocinque’s From Jewish Magic to Gnosticism, p. 155-158, for a good scholarly discussion of Chnoubis and Khnum:
 * “Chnum, the Egyptian creator, had been a very familiar figure to the Jews of the Elephantine garrison, where he had a temple near that of the Jewish creator, locally known as YHW (Iaô)... from this site there is also a blessing in the name of YHW and Chnub. The original name of the Egyptian Decan of Leo was Knm, and so the initial aspirate of Chnoubis is the result of combining the two deities, Knm and Chnum, while the snake-like appearance is witness to the influence of the creator snake of Theban cosmogony, Kmeph/Knef. ... Chnoubis, the god of the Nile flood, had sent the deluge to kill the giants. Therefore the sign of Chnoubis had a positive meaning... The cycles of Nile flood celebrations were the high point of the religious life of the peoples of Egypt. The flood brought benefits to everyone, including the Jews, and so they too must have devised cults that allowed them to take part in the common thanksgiving to the god who had blessed the earth. This is why Chnoubis/Chnoumis came to be equated with the Jewish god...”
 * and regarding the Chnoubis amulets, on p. 64:
 * “The power of all these magical gems resided in the notion that, as the god who regulated the Nile flood, Chnoubis/Chnum could also regulate menstruation, stimulate the flow of breast milk, and stop haemorrhaging, bleeding ulcers, and abnormal digestive juices in the stomach.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.189.124.244 (talk) 21:49, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: 311_History of Ancient Egypt
— Assignment last updated by Johnstoncl (talk) 18:23, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Khnum


text:
Talk:CP 55,940

Untitled
There are invididual articles for each cannabinoid... why not this one? --Thoric 21:38, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

low potential for abuse?
I took out this sentence because it is silly. If you want to put it back, cite a reference. 71.62.244.253 (talk) 02:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Original research template +
I love the work done on this article, however it keeps making unreferenced claims such as dosage, effects, and the whole thing about it's temperature stability - "suggested that the claim was put forth as propaganda to dissuade recreational cannabis users from purchasing the substance". I'm not here to say which is correct, rather to inform readers that this article may contain original research. If you choose to remove it I would appreciate a note, especially if you fixed the issue. All the best.--Astavats (talk) 22:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

More original research? Specifically, LEGAL STATUS
I don't see how this is any sort of analog to THC from a purely chemical standpoint. OK, sure it binds the receptors, fine, but from the standpoint of chemistry itself, its actually rather different than THC and a lawyer in conjunction with expert witnesses should have absolutely no trouble making the point that if this is "related enough" to THC to be scheduled, then so would far, far, far too many other compounds.

There is a bit more resemblance to Cannabidiol than THC, however Cannabidiol converts to the controlled substance THC in acidic conditions (not sure if this happens in the stomach or not) and the functional group that makes this conversion possible simply isn't present in CP-55,940, there is no phenolic hydroxyl to attack a double bond present, so its not going to be converting into something "more like" THC, even. Basically, this is its own ligand; if it is to be a controlled substance then it ought to be addressed as such in the legal code.

The Analogs Act was written in 1986 and because of its vagueness (necessary at the time) it's only ever been used in really clear-cut cases, where the chemical is all but the same or clearly has the same functional subgroups with only minor variations. Really, someone ought to get around to updating it to address what humanity has learned over the last 20+ decades; the fact of the matter is that with increased efficiency provided by greater scientific knowledge, it may soon become possible for someone intending to produce a truly novel designer drug to engineer substances based on the intended receptor targets in much the same way that pharmaceutical companies currently produce new drugs intended for other receptor targets with the intention of deliberately evading patent law. This was probably first blatantly on a worldwide scale seen with some of the clones of the drug Prozac, but has happened many, many times since at the corporate level.

It is silly to think that as the ability to predict activity goes up and the ratio of tested by failed compounds to compounds worthy of the next level of trial goes down, that such techniques will not be attempted by those seeking to evade the controlled substances act in much the same way that pharmaceuticals companies seek to evade patent law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaphraud (talk • contribs) 18:39, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The right stereoisomer of (-)-CP-55940
According to chemical abstracts this compound (CAS 83002-04-4) has stereochemistry of (1R,2R,5R), so  I changed to structure to the right one.--Tanevala (talk) 13:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:CP 55,940


text:
Jeff Hughes (musician)

Jeff Hughes is an American traditional jazz cornet player.

Hughes plays and records with several bands including The Wolverine Jazz Band, The Paramount Jazz Band, The Brahmin Bellhops and has also extensively recorded with banjoist Jimmy Mazzy. He has previously played with bands such as The Salmon City Seven, Swingland Express (led by John Holte), the Bob Connors' New Yankee Rhythm Kings and the Blue Horizon Jazz Band.

He currently lives in Falmouth, Massachusetts.

title: Jeff Hughes (musician)


text:
Pierre Kartner

Petrus Antonius Laurentius Kartner (11 April 1935 – 8 November 2022) was a Dutch musician, singer-songwriter and record producer who performed under the stage name Vader Abraham (Father Abraham). He wrote around 1600 songs.

Early life and songwriting
Kartner was born on 11 April 1935. He started his singing career at the age of eight, winning a local festival. He lived with his family in Amsterdam and worked in a chocolate factory.

Kartner worked as a promoter and producer at a record label Dureco with Annie de Reuver, with whom he formed Duo X. He was a member of the band Corry & de Rekels, selling over one million records in the 1960s.

Kartner wrote the music for the opening and closing credits on the Japanese cartoon adaptation of the 1990 TV series Moomin and "Ik ben verliefd (Shalalie)", the Dutch entry for the 2010 Eurovision Song Contest.

Father Abraham
In 1971, Kartner created his well-known alter ego, Father Abraham, after writing a Dutch carnival song, "Father Abraham had seven sons". Initially he wore a fake beard, but subsequently grew a real beard which, along with a bowler hat, became his trademark. Also in 1971, his duet with Wilma Landkroon, "Zou het erg zijn, lieve opa" (Would it be bad, dear grandfather?), reached number one in the Dutch pop music charts.

In 1981 Kartner recorded a song about Weepuls, "Wij zijn de wuppies" (We are the Weepuls).

The Little Café by the Harbour, 1975
In 1975, Kartner scored his second biggest hit, "Het kleine café aan de haven" (The little café by the harbour). This song has since been covered over 250 times in various languages.

English cover versions include "The Little Cafe by the Harbour" by Engelbert Humperdinck, "My Favourite Cafe on the Harbour" by Audrey Landers and The Red Rose Café by Demis Roussos and, separately, The Fureys. Other cover versions of The Red Rose Café have been released by Peter Alexander (Germany), Joe Dassin (France), Mireille Mathieu (France), The Fureys (Ireland), Celtic Thunder (Ireland), Engelbert Humperdinck (UK), Audrey Landers (US), André Rieu (Netherlands), Jaromír Mayer (Czech Republic), Kantoři (Czech folk music), Dag Frøland (Norway 1981), Hanne Krogh (Norway 1982) and Demis Roussos.

In French the song was recorded as "Le café de la Rue d'Amérique" by Mireille Mathieu and "Le café des trois Colombes" by Joe Dassin, and in German as "Die kleine Kneipe" by Peter Alexander and "Das kleine Beisl". In the Norwegian language the song is called "Levende lys".

In Dutch it was rerecorded by André Rieu conducting the Maastricht Salon Orchestra.

The Smurfs, 1977–2005
In May 1977, Kartner was asked to make a promotional song about The Smurfs. The record company initially only pressed 1,000 copies of the single, called "The Smurf Song", since they were unsure about the single's potential. However, they were all sold within one day at a Schlager festival. After a repress, 400,000 singles were quickly sold. A full Smurfs album was then created, which sold 500,000 copies. The album was released in several dozen countries, including France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain, and Sweden, and in various different languages. The album scored a number one hit in 16 countries. Subsequently, Kartner released other Smurf-themed albums, again in various countries and languages, such as Ga je mee naar Smurfenland (Dutch) and Vater Abraham im Land der Schlümpfe (German). In all, Kartner's Smurf works have sold around 17 million copies.

In 2005 Vader Abraham recorded The Smurf Song together with the dance act Dynamite.

Political songs, 1973–2016
As a reaction to the 1973 oil crisis, Kartner and the right-wing politician Hendrik Koekoek recorded the duet "Den Uyl is in den olie" (Den Uyl is in the oil), blaming the social democratic prime minister Joop den Uyl and Arabs for the crisis. In the carnival season of 1975, he published "Wat doen we met die Arabieren hier" (What do we do with the Arabs here?), containing the lines "What shall we do with the Arabs here? They can't be trusted with our pretty women here." The record company subsequently deleted the song. His 1976 song, "Het leger der werklozen" (The army of unemployed) portrays the jobless as people who spend the day sitting in pubs, drinking alcohol.

In 2002 Kartner recorded "Wimmetje gaat, Pimmetje komt" (Wim goes, Pim comes) with rising politician Pim Fortuyn, predicting that Fortuyn may replace Wim Kok as prime-minister. Before this could happen, Fortuyn was assassinated. In 2012, he recorded "Beste Koning" (Dear King) and in 2016 "Ik wil mijn gulden terug" (I want the guilder back).

Honors and awards

 * Buma Export Award (1978)
 * Buma Lifetime Achievement Award (2015)

Personal life and death
Kartner lived in Breda with his wife Annie. They had a son, Walter.

Kartner died in Breda of bone cancer on 8 November 2022, at the age of 87.

Studio albums

 * Een lach en een traan, 1972
 * Vader Abraham Show, 1972, with others
 * Veel liefs van... Vader Abraham en zijn goede zonen, 1972, with "zijn goede zonen"
 * Vader Abraham en zijn goede zonen, 1973, with "zijn goede zonen"
 * Samen jong, samen oud, 1974
 * Samen jong, samen oud Geven voor Leven, 1974
 * Kerst show, 1974
 * Mooi Griekenland, 1976
 * Bedankt lieve ouders, 1976
 * In Smurfenland, 1977, with the Smurfs
 * En el país de Los Pitufos, 1977
 * Au pays des Schtroumpfs, 1978
 * Im Land der Schlümpfe, 1978
 * In Smurfland, 1978
 * Smurfenbier, 1978, with the Smurfs
 * El Padre Abraham y sus Pitufos, 1979
 * Smurfing Sing Song, 1979
 * Veo veo, 1980
 * Hitparade der Schlümpfe, 1980
 * Kerstfeest, 1979
 * Die glücklichen Jahre, 1979
 * De beste jaren van zijn leven, 1981
 * Jij en ik blijven bestaan, 1981
 * De wonderlijke Wuppie wereld, 1981, with the Wuppies
 * El Padre Abraham y los Wuppies, 1983
 * El maravilloso mundo de los Wuppies, 1983
 * Los Wuppies del Padre Abraham, 1983
 * Vader Abraham und die Wuppies, 1985
 * Dierenmanieren, 1985
 * Vader Abraham zingt over apen en andere mensen, 1987
 * Als je wilt weten wie ik ben, 1987
 * Vader Abraham 2, 1988
 * Waarom huil je nou, 1988
 * Together forever (Dutch), 1990, with the Smurfs
 * Together forever (English), 1990
 * Schlumpfenland Wunderland, 1990
 * Die Lieder der Mumins, 1992
 * Lach naar de wolken, 1994, as Pierre Kartner

Collections

 * De beste van Vader Abraham, 1976
 * De beste van Vader Abraham, 1977
 * Bedankt Vader Abraham, 1979 (live)
 * 14 Feestsuksessen, 1981
 * 15 Jaar Karnaval, 1985
 * Vader ziet Abraham, 1985
 * 14 Beste, 1987
 * De 20 best, 1988
 * Het beste van Vader Abraham, 1990
 * 15 Successen, 1990
 * Op de deksel van de jampot, 1990
 * Totaal, 1993
 * 25 Jaar: Zijn 36 grootste successen, 1995
 * 30 jaar Vader Abraham, 2000
 * Gefeliciteerd Vader Abraham! – 80 jaar, 2015

title: Pierre Kartner


text:
Talk:John Garang

Early discussion
If John Garang was actually born into a poor family in a poor country, how did he ever manage to complete enough school -- and not to mention find enough money -- to attend an exclusive private liberal arts college in the U.S.?

Poor families can't usually afford fees for elementary and high school attendance, much less thousands of dollars in international travel expenses for attending college abroad (to say nothing of the tuition, housing, and food).

 * Since no one has responded to this in two weeks, I'm removing the reference to poverty. Dave (talk) 19:48, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * Like most Africans who study abroad, Garang did so on a scholarship. But it is unnecessary to point out that he came from a poor African family - African families are usually poor. It is more interesting and informative to point out if someone comes from a rich African family.--Ezeu 00:02, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * If John Garang was an average African, it would not be notable that he came from a poor family. But since he had a Western education and became a major political leader, it is certainly notable that he came from a poor family.--Pharos 06:33, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Update from a former Grinnell resident: John was indeed born into a poor family. He escaped and managed to obtain much help in obtaining an education. I remember hearing of this as a child. I believe his early education was not in the US. His college education was in Grinnell and he returned later to Iowa State. He did not receive his education through his own personal or family resources. He was highly motivated and dedicated but was not at all a wealthy person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.166.242.42 (talk) 11:12, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Relationship to Joseph Garang?
In List of dictators, there is a mention of a Joseph Garang whom Gafar Numeiry is said to have executed in 1971. Obviously, Joseph is not a typo for John -- but are the two men related? -- llywrch 15:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've created a stub about Joseph Garang. There is not mention of them being related in any of the references I've googled. --Ezeu 21:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Spam Related to topic
Watch out for massive spamming associated with John Garang. Its claimed to be sent from Rebecca Garang or other of his relatives.

Sources for Allegations?
In the "Rebel Leader" section, there's a paragraph (the third) that makes a number of remarkable claims about Garang (that he separated children and families, that he coerced children into joining him by destroying food supplies, etc.) as well as a fairly baldly POV sidenote about the difficulty of marketing a group called "The Red Army" to churches and charities in the US. No sources are given. This paragraph should be removed if no one has any sources to back up any of it. dcd139 (talk) 20:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In the absence of any response, I'm deleting the paragraph as unsourced and POV. dcd139 (talk) 18:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Assassination
His wife contends he was assassinated. See, for example:

http://www.newsudanvision.com/news/rebecca-nyandeng-who-killed-my-husband

Anyone want to add something about this? 65.183.135.231 (talk) 04:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

apparent contradiction
This paragraph is contradictory:

He had been returning from a meeting in Rwakitura with long-time ally President Yoweri Museveni of Uganda. He did not tell the Sudanese government that he was going to this meeting and so did not take the presidential plane. In fact Garang said he was going to spend the weekend in New Site, a small village near the Kenyan borders founded by Garang himself. To this day nobody knows with whom Garang had met in Rwakitura, or what the agenda of the meeting had been.

So what happened? Garang met with Museveni or with some unknown persons? Bazuz (talk) 23:21, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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title: Talk:John Garang


text:
User:KidNotorious

Please stop adding nonsense to Wikipedia. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you. Stewart Adcock 21:40, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

title: User:KidNotorious


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Boyzum

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Sjakkalle (Check!)  12:27, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Boyzum
Band that has yet to release an album, in fact yet to start any work. David | Talk 21:41, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Classic band vanity that deserves a good flushing. Bye-bye, Boyzum. - Lucky 6.9 21:54, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn Friday 23:28, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete; nn, band vanity. Jaxl 23:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn band vanity. --Etacar11 01:16, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn royblumy 03:41, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete non notable band vanity. JamesBurns 03:52, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Boyzum


text: User talk:63.117.78.2

title: User talk:63.117.78.2


text:
Talk:Undelete

On 4 July 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. See Votes for deletion/UndeleteVfD for a record of the discussion.

title: Talk:Undelete


text: User talk:80.95.104.241

title: User talk:80.95.104.241


text:
Talk:Jeffrey Lundgren

14 July 2005
There are, at a minimum, terminology issues. We need to be clear on Latter Day Saint versus Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints versus Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (now Community of Christ, and abbreviated RLDS and not any other way); also Kirtland (not Kirkland). The group's move to Kirtland and discovery of an original meetinghouse is not clear at all to me -- are we referring to the Kirtland Temple, or some other edifice? And be it noted that Joseph Smith did not start preaching there, but in upstate New York (the church being organized in the Peter Whitmer home IIRC). Some of these things I know how to fix and simply cannot address right now; with others, I can't make out what the authors are trying to say, so I don't know where to begin. The best place to start, most likely, would be a good research library. I'll try and get back to this sometime (don't hold your breath). eritain 21:43, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Allegedly??
Since Jeffrey and wife and some others were already found guilty and sentenced, why use the term "allegedly"? Are there still others who've yet to be tried? Anyhow, I'm just curious about the terminology, that's all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlujan69 (talk • contribs) 3 March 2006

If Jeffrey impregnated his girlfriend in 1969, and the baby was born in December 1970, that has to be the longest gestation period I've ever heard of.

The bodies were not found "one day later", they weren't found for 9 months, by which time the group had moved to WV and then Lundgren and his family to California. The police did come to the farm the day after the murders but they left without suspecting anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Braver (talk • contribs) 6 April 2006

Not all of the accomplices received sentences of 100+ years. Three women got 7-25 year sentences by pleading to 5 counts of conspiracy. Check the State of Ohio Department of Corrections web site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by brokerbob51 (talk • contribs) 24 Aug 2006

References needed
This article badly needs citations for the majority of the material presented. The article had no references at all until today, when I added five to AP's sentencing report of 8/2006. I corrected the sentencing error noted above, and I changed "no more than 12" (unsourced) to "less than 20" for the sect's size -- Lundgren killed five people, and 13 were arrested, so that's well over 12.

I also removed unsourced material (amid all the other unsourced material) about Lundgren turning down a 1981 priesthood offer from the RLDS because he felt the RLDS were too lenient towards women -- because the AP report stated he'd been discharged by the RLDS in 1987. It is possible both are true, somehow, but what I left was the AP info, uncontradicted. In time, the link to the AP report will go dead, at which point the reference will need to be altered to show it as a print resource rather than a webpage. -- Lisasmall 21:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I added a good reference although it isn't the most up to date one. There are a couple of minor conflicts some of which may be just omitted from my source. The claim that he considered it a sin for the Avery's to live apart may be false. I don't think he wanted them with him in his house unless he could get something out of them. Also he wasn't a Serial Killer, he was a Mass Murderer. His Murderers happened all on the same day. Serial Killers do their murders over a longer period of time. Zacherystaylor (talk) 18:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Not dead yet, date of death added prematurely
His execution has been pulled back a week, so he is not dead and probably wont die on the 24th. Who ever wrote the date of death and rewrote the article as if he was dead should have at the very least have waited anyway until he was actually dead !! --84.153.48.209 17:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * AP Confirms his executionDamianFinol 17:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting info
In the childhood section it says he left the RLDS when he reached adulthood, later it says he became a lay minister of RLDS and left in 1987 (well into adulthood). If course he strictly did leave when he was an adult, saying he left when he "attained adulthood" implies that he left as a young adult. Brentt 19:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguous Lines
I quote (under 'The Murders'): "The Averys' 15-year-old daughter, Trina, was shot twice in the head. The first shot missed, but the second killed her instantly."

Was she actually shot twice in the head or did a shot miss and the second shot killed her? Or were in fact, three shots fired with one missing, one injuring and one killing? Or did a shot miss, the next shot kill and the next shot hit a corpse? You get what I mean anyway.... I don't know how to edit this because I don't know the facts. Might want to clear that up a bit though. FeedTheGoat 11:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

major mess up
While trying to add an updated image of Lundgren, I accidently deleted the image of him already in the article. I apologize. I'm still trying to figure out how to add the new picture.Jlujan69 23:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Cult Box
The cult box needs to be indented to the right, I don't know how to do this. Probably an easy fix. John Reaves 20:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Latter-day Saint
I removed the link to the list of Latter-day Saints. It's misleading. That category would apply to adherents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not the Re-organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and especially not to those who remove themselves or are dismissed.

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 17:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

'Prophet' section
the "timing" of this section is...screwy. the paragraph starting with "On October 10, 1988,..." seems to, basically, start the story over. it talks about lundgren discussing moving to Kirtland, when he's already there. one thing that might make this even more confusing, is the last sentence/para. of the previous section, which says lundgren was dismissed as a "lay minister" by the RLDS in 1987. i THINK it was that in '87, he was relieved of the volunteer duties he had at the local temple of the RLDS in Kirtland. later, in 1988, he was "dismissed" ("expelled"?) from the full/formal RLDS group/organization. (not sure of the proper wording of these things). but he was already IN kirtland, or just outside of it, and he had "left" the local temple/church in 1987--not late 1988, as claimed in the 'Prophet' section. he was ALREADY leading his own religious group/sect/cult well before October 1988.

well, there are other issues with this article, anyway, so maybe no one really cares. notably, the "ambiguous lines" about the murders, raised by FeedTheGoat has not been addressed (from 2006), as well as much of the info still here being unsourced. if it is mostly coming from the 2 books listed in the references, that should be made clear. (and why is one of the books listed twice in the references?)

removing ALL the info about what happened to the others who were charged certainly cleared up the issue of it being unsourced and incorrect (from brokerbob51, 2006), but it leaves gaping holes in the story. what happened to EVERYONE involved seems an important piece. unless there's a separate article on...the cult? i don't think there is, and if there is, it's not linked to from this article.

there are also a few punctuation issues, but WP, from what i've been able to gather over a few weeks of 'research,' has decided not to have actual standards for some basic punctuation needs, so i've stopped trying to correct articles to make them....at least look more intelligently composed, i guess.

one article i found (and read before coming here), is from the Chicago Tribune. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1990-01-07/news/9001020419_1_reorganized-church-church-of-jesus-christ-day-saints/2. don't know if that might help in any way.

and the link to the Crime Library (external links) doesn't appear to be working any more.Colbey84 (talk) 02:17, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080828040940/http://www.cbsnews.com:80/stories/2006/10/24/ap/national/mainD8KV5DV80.shtml to http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/24/ap/national/mainD8KV5DV80.shtml

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Attaching Lundgred to Church of Latter Day Saints is incorrect.
as per this link:

https://murderpedia.org/male.L/l1/lundgren-jeffrey-don.htm

"Lundgren and about two dozen followers had broken away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" this is repeated by 4 credible news sources through the link

the following should be edited the Wiki post

....Lundgren led a Latter Day Saint movement-based cult in Kirtland where he and several of his followers.....

To the correct statement of

Lundgren led a cult in Kirtland where he and several of his followers

He separated himself from the church then formed his own cult

in addition, All references to him being a leader in the church should be removed, he was not. once again he separated himself from the Church

I made an effort to correct the post but was met with an edit war and the offender ignored proper documentation and the changes. Please edit post haste. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elkrivermr (talk • contribs) 02:03, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Murderpedia is a user generated site, much like this one and is therefore inappropriate for sourcing here. Please see our policies on reliable sources. --AdamF in MO (talk) 05:35, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Links to the following reliable sources are listed on the site, dismissal on site name instead of content.

The Plain Dealer

cleveland.com The Plain Dealer is the major newspaper of Cleveland, Ohio, United States. According to an analysis of circulation data published in March 2013, the newspaper was among the top 25 newspapers for both daily and Sunday circulation in the United States.

Lundgren got what he deserved

After cult killer's execution, no one claims body

By Maggi Martin - Cleveland Plain Dealer

October 25, 2006

Lucasville, Ohio -- Jeffrey Lundgren, the self-professed prophet who killed five people in what he said was a sacrifice demanded by a higher power, died by lethal injection Tuesday in a death demanded by the state. Lundgren walked the 17 steps to the death chamber without the well- worn Bible that he used to control his cult, which formed after he broke from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Sa

Jeffrey Lundgren executed

Reuters News, https://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/lundgren1050.htm

Lundgren and about two dozen followers had broken away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, now called the Community of Christ, a small church that splintered from the mainstream Mormon church. His group believed doomsday was near. Prosecutors said Lundgren killed the Avery family both because of a message he felt he got from God and because he saw the family as disloyal for not pooling their finances into a common church fund.

additional sources cited in original link https://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/lundgren1050.htm

elkrivermr(talk) 08:28, 13 April 2020 (cst)

Time to correct the post and ban https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ElSnakeoBwb for starting an edit war

 * The statement that ....Lundgren led a Latter Day Saint movement-based cult in Kirtland where he and several of his followers..... is factually correct.
 * It simply states that Lungren was the leader of a cult that was based on the teachings of the Latter Day Saint (LDS).
 * The sentence does not say that the LDS is a cult, nor does it say that he was a leader in the LDS.

 * This is corroborated through the references already given in this article (and coincidently also given by the murderpedia reference above)
 * This can also be verified by reading the actual caselaw https://cite.case.law/f3d/440/754/#p759 this was a petition by Jeffrey Lundgren to the United States Court of Appeals, Sixth Circuit. An excerpt from that case under section 1 "Facts as Recited by the Ohio Supreme Court" reads: "William Russell, a religion professor at an RLDS college, testified that Lund-gren knew scripture exceptionally well, especially the Book of Mormon, and followed the chiastic method of scripture interpretation, which involves searching text for recurring patterns. However, Lundgren did not understand the Bible’s historical context and tended to concentrate on this esoteric method. Lundgren generally fit within the traditions of the RLDS faith in that he described visions, direct spiritual experiences, and God speaking directly to prophets."

 * The fact that he was excommunicated by the RLDS Church, and formed a small religious group based on its teachings, does not change the fact that he was the leader of a small cult that was based on the teachings of the (R)LDS, henceforth I think the contested statement is correct.
 * ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 14:57, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect: ElSnakeoBwb

By your own post the cult was based on the book of mormon not the RLDS, "William Russell, a religion professor at an RLDS college, testified that Lund-gren knew scripture exceptionally well, especially the Book of Mormon, and followed the chiastic method of scripture interpretation, which involves searching text for recurring patterns."

The category foot notes list the following: "Latter Day Saint leaders, American Latter Day Saint leaders, Members of the clergy convicted of murder?  so your statement of ":The sentence does not say that the LDS is a cult, nor does it say that he was a leader in the LDS." is incorrect, the link list them and connects them.

Edits should be made, ElSnakeoBwb should be banned permanently for instigating an edit war — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elkrivermr (talk • contribs) 15:31, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Guys - the type of sourcing you are looking for is reliable, independent and secondary. Case law, and the Clark County prosecutor's office are primary sources. If the Plain Dealer is a reliable newspaper, that looks like the sort of source to use for this - what do they say about it?
 * FWIW, nobody is going to get permanently banned for a one-off edit war - that would normally result in a short block. Calling for people you're in dispute with to get blocked or banned isn't really a good look. It would also be really helpful if you each read WP:THREAD, and started signing your posts. Girth Summit  (blether)  15:36, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Lundgren got what he deserved

After cult killer's execution, no one claims body

By Maggi Martin - Cleveland Plain Dealer

October 25, 2006

Lucasville, Ohio -- Jeffrey Lundgren, the self-professed prophet who killed five people in what he said was a sacrifice demanded by a higher power, died by lethal injection Tuesday in a death demanded by the state. Lundgren walked the 17 steps to the death chamber without the well- worn Bible that he used to control his cult, which formed after he broke from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Sa

Jeffrey Lundgren executed

Reuters News, https://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/lundgren1050.htm

Lundgren and about two dozen followers had broken away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, now called the Community of Christ, a small church that splintered from the mainstream Mormon church. His group believed doomsday was near. Prosecutors said Lundgren killed the Avery family both because of a message he felt he got from God and because he saw the family as disloyal for not pooling their finances into a common church fund.

additional sources cited in original link https://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/lundgren1050.htm

elkrivermr(talk) 08:28, 13 April 2020 (cst)

Threats of banning were made by ElSnakeoBwb on my user talk page when his edit war was instigated:

< > Warning icon Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to vandalize pages by deliberately introducing incorrect information, as you did at Jeffrey Lundgren, you may be blocked from editing.

As stated before, and corroborated by the references provided in this article, Your edits are factually incorrect, and I have to assume are done intentionally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ElSnakeoBwb (talk • contribs) 15:57, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Stop icon You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you vandalize Wikipedia by deliberately introducing incorrect information, as you did at Jeffrey Lundgren.

You haven't provided any evidence for your claims, and your edits conflict with references in this article — Preceding unsigned comment added by ElSnakeoBwb (talk • contribs) 17:09, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

This is the source for the changes made:

https://murderpedia.org/male.L/l1/lundgren-jeffrey-don.htm

"Lundgren and about two dozen followers had broken away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,"

changes were appropriate and correct, cease the edit war immediately

Notice Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Elkrivermr reported by ElSnakeoBwb. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:13, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Once again, this is the source for the changes made:

https://murderpedia.org/male.L/l1/lundgren-jeffrey-don.htm

"Lundgren and about two dozen followers had broken away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,"

changes were appropriate and correct, cease the edit war immediately < >

Note that I documented all changes, same links as submitted here, that were reverted by ElSnakeoBwb with the claim of "no documentation".

Elkrivermr (talk) 16:52, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

 * , have you read what people have been telling you? Murderpedia is not reliable - you can't use it to support any assertion. Clarkprosecutor is primary - it could potentially be used with caution, but a secondary source would be better. The best source I'm seeing above is the Cleveland Plain Dealer - assuming that the text above is correctly quoted from that source, and that it's a respected newspaper and not a tabloid, it would support an assertion that he split away from the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - is that what is under dispute?
 * The assertion that he split of RLDS is not in dispute (As both Me and Elkrivermr, see that as factual), but Elkrivermr contests that Lundgren led a Latter Day Saint movement-based cult  ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Just FYI, a ban and a block are two different things. I'm an administrator, and so could technically block either of your accounts, but a ban has to come from the community. I'm telling you that there isn't a thing called a permanent block, but we can perform indefinite blocks - but we don't do that for one-off edit wars. Edit war blocks tend to start out small, and get longer when someone refuses to (or cannot) learn. Now, stop arguing about this citing inappropriate sources, and start discussing what the content should be based on reliable, secondary sources.
 * And please, both of you, read WP:THREAD, and WP:INDENT. Trying to wade through this discussion is making my eyes bleed. Girth Summit  (blether)  17:26, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

 * In an effort to continue this conversation in a more structured fashion, I will try and present the points of contentions ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I am happy to remove or cleanup up this section to get a more readable output ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * My suggestion to Elkrivermr is to contest each point individually and insert your rebuttal just after my reason for reverting the changes. Use : for proper indentation. ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

There are 3 things that Elkrivermr seem to contest on this page.

1.) Jeffrey_Lundgren religious affinity.

 * Changes made by Elkrivermr
 * Changes include : changing multiple instances of the word cult with atheist, removed references to LDS and changed them to atheist, changing LDS leader to Atheist leader
 * Reason given for change : "he was a devout atheist before his death"

 * Changelog
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950407255&oldid=950406513 (change reverted by Me)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950409997&oldid=950407255 (change reverted by Me)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950406513&oldid=935403540 (change reverted by Me)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950516655&oldid=950516059 (change reverted by Me)

 * Reason for reverting these changes:
 * No supporting evidence given at all, article and references all contradict these changes.

2.) Removing reference to Latter Day Saint movement-based

 * Changes made by Elkrivermr
 * Changes include : changing "Lundgren led a Latter Day Saint movement-based cult in Kirtland" into "Lundgren led a cult in Kirtland"
 * Reason given for change : "church of ladder days saints is not a cult, it is a recognized organized religion." (and eventually a link to https://murderpedia.org/male.L/l1/lundgren-jeffrey-don.htm)

 * Changelog
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950433012&oldid=950432284 (change reverted by Me)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950509095&oldid=950492441 (change reverted by another user)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950516059&oldid=950509214 (change reverted by Me)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950539375&oldid=950527850 (change reverted by Me)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950542973&oldid=950541651 (change reverted by kleuske to pre EW)

 * Reason for reverting these changes:
 * The statement "Lundgren led a Latter Day Saint movement-based cult in Kirtland" is in my opinion factually correct.
 * Important here is the reference to Latter Day Saint movement. It's an Umbrella term for the collection of independent church groups that trace their origins to a Christian Restorationist movement founded by Joseph Smith in the late 1820s. which in turn is a Christian denomination
 * Any religious teachings that has its origin in the movement started by Joseph Smith is part of the greater umbrella called the Latter Day Saint movement
 * It's irrelevant if Jeffrey Lundgren continued independently from another LDS movement, or that he got excommunicated from another LDS movement, he still led a small cult whose teachings were ultimately based on the movement Joseph Smith founded. so he was part of the Latter Day Saint movement
 * Evidence can be found in the supplied references on the page, and also by reading the actual caselaw https://cite.case.law/f3d/440/754/#p759 this was a petition by Jeffrey Lundgren to the United States Court of Appeals, Sixth Circuit. An excerpt from that case under section 1 "Facts as Recited by the Ohio Supreme Court" reads: "William Russell, a religion professor at an RLDS college, testified that Lund-gren knew scripture exceptionally well, especially the Book of Mormon, and followed the chiastic method of scripture interpretation, which involves searching text for recurring patterns. However, Lundgren did not understand the Bible’s historical context and tended to concentrate on this esoteric method. Lundgren generally fit within the traditions of the RLDS faith in that he described visions, direct spiritual experiences, and God speaking directly to prophets."

 * So the reason given for the change (church of ladder days saints is not a cult, it is a recognized organized religion.) does not apply here, nobody is saying here that LDS is a cult.

3.) Removing categories refering to LDS

 * Changes made by Elkrivermr
 * Changes include : removing 2 categories
 * Reason given for change : none

 * Changelog
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Lundgren&type=revision&diff=950432284&oldid=950411264 ( ultimately reverted by kleuske to pre EW)

 * I see no reason why these 2 categories should be removed. He was the leader (size of his cult is irrelevant), and his cult was ultimately based on the teachings of Joseph Smith ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Suggestions for better formatting are welcomed as these are my first adventures in Wikipedia ElSnakeoBwb (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I've collapsed the above under HAT tags, as it really makes a mess of the talk page. ElSnakeoBwb, it's considered bad form to insert comments inside another person's comments, so asking Elkrivermr to do so is a non-starter. —  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 17:13, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jeffrey Lundgren