text:
Kyivstar

Kyivstar (Київстар) is a Ukrainian telecommunications company, providing communication services and data transmission based on a broad range of fixed and mobile technologies, including 4G (LTE) services, in Ukraine.

The Kyivstar mobile network covers all cities of Ukraine, as well as more than 28,000 rural settlements, all major national and regional routes, most sea, and river coasts. As of 2024, Kyivstar is the largest mobile operator and one of the largest broadband Internet providers in Ukraine, serving about 24 million mobile customers and more than 1 million fixed broadband internet customers ("Home Internet"). The company has obtained six network codes: 67, 68, 77, 96, 97 and 98, but customers are free to move to another operator and keep their phone number using mobile number portability.

Together with the main telecom services, Kyivstar provides FMC services (convergence of mobile and fixed communications), digital solutions - Big Data, industrial IoT, cloud services, mobile financial services, Open API "Kyivstar Open Telecom" and others. The company implements these products both independently and in partnership with large IT companies, including Microsoft.

Kyivstar is also one of the leaders in the OTT TV segment, providing access to more than 250 TV channels.

Kyivstar has built the largest communication infrastructure in Ukraine - more than 48 thousand base stations. The company uses its fiber-optic network with a total length of 44,000 km and a bandwidth of over 380 Gbps.

PJSC Kyivstar was founded and registered in Ukraine in 1994 and has been providing mobile services since 1997. The company's head office is located in Kyiv. Kyivstar is a part of the international telecom group VEON. VEON, Ltd. is a Netherlands-headquartered, NASDAQ, and EURONEXT-listed company with an investor base including thousands of shareholders in the U.S. and Europe and worldwide. VEON does not have, and never have had, a majority or controlling shareholder.

Since 2006, Kyivstar has been implementing social responsibility projects.

Following the results of 2016, Kyivstar became one of 29 Ukrainian companies, which, according to the American consulting group Deloitte, were ranked among the 500 largest companies in Central and Eastern Europe.

In 2020, Kyivstar became the most expensive brand in Ukraine according to Korrespondent magazine, and the best employer in Ukraine in the TOP-100 rating. It was also rated the largest Company of the Year in mobile communication. According to the results of 2020 and 2021 Kyivstar is the largest taxpayer in Ukraine among the companies in the field of communications and information.

Oleksandr Komarov has been the President of the company since December 2018.

Tariffs
As of March 2022, the company has tariffs (plans) for two groups of subscribers - prepaid and contract.

Tariffs for prepaid subscribers range from UAH 125/4 weeks (Smachnyy, Ukrainian for “delicious”) to UAH 250/4 weeks (Tviy Optimum, “Your Optimum”)

For contract users, tariffs range from UAH 135 / month (Vash Start, "Your Start") to UAH 1,500 / month (Vash Maximum, eng. - “Your maximum”).

There are special rates for the elderly and people with disabilities: Dzvinky dlia batkiv ("Calls for parents") and Internet dlia batkiv ("Internet for parents").

Coverage
As of 2021, it is the largest mobile operator, serving about 26,2 million mobile customers and more than 1,2 million fixed broadband customers in Ukraine. In 2021, Kyivstar continued to build 4G networks throughout Ukraine and provided 90.3% of the population has access to 4G services. In particular, the operator implemented a program to cover high-speed mobile Internet of all highways of international importance.

At the beginning of 2022:

 * 90.3% of the population had access to 4G services;
 * Consumption of data traffic per subscriber increased to 7.1 GB (Q4 2021);
 * The number of Kyivstar TV subscribers in Q4 2021 increased by 59.6% compared to 2020. Today, the service is used by 691,000 subscribers from all over Ukraine.

Kyivstar provides GSM communication services throughout its coverage and roaming in 189 countries on 5 continents.

In the first half of 2021, the operator became the leader in mobile Internet speed for the third time, according to Ookla research. With the start of 4G implementation, the average data download speed in the Kyivstar network has almost doubled, from 17.9 Mbit/s in 2018 to 33.2 Mbit/s in the first half of 2021, which is the highest among mobile operators in Ukraine.

Financial indicators
According to the company, in 2021:

 * Kyivstar's total revenue amounted to UAH 28,748 billion.
 * The main profit of the company brought mobile services - UAH 26,712 billion (an increase of 12,3%). Including mobile internet services UAH 19,092 billion (up 18%)
 * Revenue from fixed communications - UAH 18.59 billion. (growth of 16%).
 * The volume of the company's capital investments excluding leases and licenses for the year amounted to UAH 4,851 billion.
 * The number of mobile subscribers is about 26,2 million
 * The number of fixed-line subscribers - is 1.2 million.
 * The amount of taxes and payments paid to the budget of Ukraine for 2021 amounted to more than UAH 10,2 billion, and once again became the largest taxpayer to the state among telecom operators in Ukraine.
 * During the year, the company invested UAH 5,5 billion in infrastructure development.

Number capacity
Kyivstar has originally been in the possession of six non-geographic network codes - 67, 68, 77, 96, 97, 98, and also has number capacities in the fixed telephone network of many cities of Ukraine (for example, 2,000 numbers with indexes 695ххх, 696ххх in Poltava, 20,000 numbers with indexes 781хххх, 782хххх in Odesa, till July 2014 - 5,000 numbers with indexes 905ххх - 909ххх in Sevastopol). Customers are free to change mobile operators keeping their numbers with mobile number portability.

The 1990s and 2000s
The company was founded in 1994 by Ihor Lytovchenko under the name "Bridge". Subsequently, the name was changed to Kyivstar.

1997 - Launch of the mobile network. The company started providing mobile services on December 9, 1997.

1998 - The first in Ukraine to provide SMS services.

2000 - The first in Ukraine to provide access to mobile Internet using WAP technology. That year, free incoming calls within the network were introduced for all subscribers (for the first time on the market). Internet access services (including WAP) were introduced. The company became the first GSM-banking operator (StarCard). Subscribers are provided with an inter-standard roaming service.

2001 - Kyivstar became the leader of the telecom market of Ukraine by the number of subscribers.

2002 - GPRS data transmission services started. Kyivstar became the first mobile operator in Ukraine to provide roaming services in all European countries. The company was certified according to the international quality system ISO 9001: 2000.

In the fall of 2003, the charge for incoming calls was abolished. Kyivstar won the EuroMarket International Award of the European Market Research Center (EMRC), and the Ukrainian Investment Newspaper recognized Kyivstar as the most dynamic company in Ukraine in the TOP-100 rating.

In 2004, Kyivstar demonstrated EDGE data transmission technology for the first time in Ukraine, became the official mobile operator of the National Olympic Team of Ukraine, and the issue of Kyivstar GSM corporate bonds was recognized as the best financial transaction of the year in emerging international markets.

The 2010s
On October 21, 2010, the process of integration of Ukrainian telecommunications operators Kyivstar and Beeline-Ukraine (ЗАТ «Українські радіосистеми» or CJSC Ukrainian Radio Systems and Golden Telecom) into one company began. The combined company provided telecommunications services under the Kyivstar, djuice, Kyivstar-Business, and Beeline brands. According to Kyivstar, the process of merging operators was completed by the end of 2012.

In 2013, the provision of mobile financial services was launched, in particular the Mobile Money service, which allows subscribers to top up bank cards and pay for goods and services of various companies from mobile phones. In the ranking of the 500 largest companies in Central and Eastern Europe compiled by Deloitte, Kyivstar took 146th place, the highest among Ukrainian mobile operators.

On August 11, 2014, Kyivstar stopped serving its subscribers in Crimea and Sevastopol due to an armed attack on the company's office in Simferopol.

In February 2015, Kyivstar announced the termination of telecom services in the temporarily occupied territories of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

On February 23, 2015, Kyivstar purchased a license to provide services in the UMTS standard, which belongs to the third generation of mobile communications (3G). Under the terms of the tender, the operator undertook to launch a third-generation network within 18 months after the tender in all regional centers of Ukraine, and 6 years in all district centers and all settlements with a population of over 10 thousand people.

In April 2015, Kyivstar started providing 3G services.

In June 2015, the company rebranded, introducing changes in the company's corporate style and values, which now correspond to the new slogan of the operator: "Simple. Innovative. Better".

November 14, 2016, was the 20th anniversary of the opening of the listing on the American stock exchange,  one of the most important milestones in the history of the international group of companies VEON, which includes the national telecommunications operator Kyivstar. On the same day, Kyivstar was the first in Ukraine to launch tariffs that combine mobile, home Internet, and TV services in one offer - Kyivstar All Together.

On March 23, 2017, Kyivstar initiated the reform of radio frequencies in the 1800 MHz band to provide all participants in the telecom market with equal opportunities to develop 4G communication.

On April 25, 2017, Kyivstar announced the readiness of the network equipment to provide 4G communication services. To modernize the network, the company installed equipment based on the Single RAN solution (single radio access). This solution allows the use of equipment for various mobile communication standards, including 3G and 4G, within a single software and hardware complex of the base station.

On November 29, 2017, the National Bank of Ukraine granted the subsidiary Kyivstar (StarMoney LLC) the status of payment infrastructure operator.

On December 26, 2017, Kyivstar and the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade of Ukraine signed a Memorandum of Cooperation. Under the terms of the Memorandum, the parties agreed to exchange statistical information to determine the number of domestic and foreign tourists moving through the territory of Ukraine. The obtained data are used by the Ministry for the development of the tourism industry and the promotion of Ukraine in foreign and domestic tourism markets.

On December 27, 2017, Kyivstar started connecting subscribers to the Mobile-ID service, which provides the possibility of electronic identification to receive electronic services.

At the end of January 2018, Kyivstar was included in the list of large companies that provide more than 70% of all revenues to the state budget of Ukraine.

On January 31, 2018, Kyivstar received a 4G (LTE) license for the frequency of 2600 MHz.

On March 6, 2018, the next auction of licenses for frequencies in the 1800 MHz band took place. According to its results, Kyivstar acquired the most frequencies in this range for UAH 1 billion 512 million.

On April 6, 2018, Kyivstar launched 4G communication in the 2600 MHz band in 20 cities of Ukraine.

On April 12, 2018, Kyivstar received 4G licenses in the 1800 MHz band.

On July 1, 2018, Kyivstar started providing 4G services in the 1800 MHz band.

On December 20, 2018, Kyivstar launched the Mobile-ID service for the whole of Ukraine.

On July 11, 2019, Kyivstar announced its readiness to voluntarily transfer to the state part of the radio frequency band in the 900 MHz band so that other mobile operators that lack frequencies could receive them through a tender.

On September 17, 2019, Kyivstar and Microsoft announced the launch of a joint cloud solution Azure Stack with Kyivstar in Ukraine. Azure Stack cloud solution allows to implement Azure services in a local data center, creating conditions for the development of business innovation in Ukraine.

On December 17, 2019, Kyivstar was the first on the Ukrainian market to present a technical solution for creating remote jobs.

The 2020s
On January 15, 2020, the Ministry of Digital Transformation of Ukraine and Kyivstar began cooperation in the field of digital literacy.

On March 5, 2020, Kyivstar together with two operators started providing 4G communication services using frequencies in the 1800 MHz band at the Akademmistechko metro station in Kyiv and in the tunnel to the Zhytomyrska station. As of July 3, 2020, high-speed Internet services have been expanded, using frequencies in the 1800 MHz and 2600 MHz bands, at eight more Kyiv metro stations and in tunnels between them. These are the stations Zhytomyrska, Sviatoshyn, Heroiv Dnipra, Minska, Obolon, Syrets, Dorohozhychy and Lukianivska. Starting in May 2021, Kyivstar's high-speed 4G Internet will be available at all Kyiv Metro stations.

On March 18, 2020, Kyivstar received a license to develop 4G communication in the 900 MHz band for the development of high-speed mobile Internet in the most remote settlements of Ukraine.

In November 2020, Kyivstar and other mobile operators in Ukraine reformed 900 MHz radio frequencies. This allowed the development of high-speed mobile Internet in small towns and rural areas.

Kyivstar during the Russian invasion of Ukraine
From February 24, 2022, from the beginning of a new stage of Russian military aggression against Ukraine, Kyivstar implemented a package of measures to support society and subscribers. The company provided customers with free communication services, allocated UAH 15 million for charity and paid more than UAH 1 billion in taxes ahead of schedule.

For prepaid subscribers:

 * Calls within the network for 21.5 million subscribers work with zero on the account and without paid tariff.
 * Subscribers can use the Extra money service for ordering additional funds to account with no commission.

For contract subscribers and business clients:

 * Kyivstar has increased credit limits so that customers can use basic services without topping up their accounts.
 * For business customers with fixed services (internet, telephony and data transmission), the payment deadlines for their bills are delayed by 30 days.
 * Kyivstar provided Star.Docs electronic document management service free of charge to businesses and government organizations.

For subscribers in roaming:

 * Kyivstar provided an extra UAH 250 as a bonus for calls and mobile internet abroad. Bonuses are awarded to all subscribers who are forced to leave for one of 9 European countries: Poland, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Moldova, Germany, Italy, Lithuania, or the Czech Republic. Over 1.4 million subscribers have already received these bonuses in the first 2 weeks.

For Home Internet and Kyivstar TV customers:

 * The company provided the opportunity to use fixed Internet at speeds up to 80 Mbit/s to subscribers without the possibility of paying a bill.
 * Kyivstar provided free Wi-Fi in more than 200 bomb shelters throughout Ukraine.
 * The company opened access to most of the content on the Kyivstar TV online television platform. Also, subscribers of other mobile operators have free access to news channels and children's content.

Kyivstar actively supports the state and Ukrainian society, the Armed Forces of Ukraine:

 * The company transferred UAH 1.1 billion of income tax to the state budget ahead of schedule.
 * The company allocated ₴10 million of charitable assistance for the Come Back Alive charity fund and 5 million for the NGO “Your Support” (Твоя опора, Tvoya opora).
 * The company has created a platform to raise funds for the needs of the Ukrainian army. With the short number 88009, Kyivstar subscribers collected more than UAH 1.2 million in the first two weeks of the platform's existence.

Kyivstar, in cooperation with the State Emergency Service of Ukraine, sent out more than 150 million SMS messages with vital information, in particular, about actions during an air raid alert, first aid, etc.

In the first quarter of 2022, Kyivstar invested UAH 659 million in communication development. And thanks to the round-the-clock work of the company's specialists, 95% of the base stations of the telecom network work in normal mode. During the war, the company built more than 100 new mobile communication facilities and connected 1,150 bomb shelters in various cities of Ukraine to the free Internet.

Kyivstar, together with other mobile operators, the Ministry of Digital Transformation of Ukraine, the State Service for Special Communications and Information Protection of Ukraine, the National Commission for State Regulation in the Fields of Electronic Communications, Radio Frequency Spectrum and Postal Services, together with the Ukrainian Association of Telecom Operators "Telas", launched national roaming.

On December 12, 2023, Kyivstar experienced a significant service outage, which its CEO, Oleksandr Komarov, attributed to a powerful Russian cyberattack. This attack, described as one of the largest against a civilian communications system, disrupted both phone and internet access for millions in Ukraine and involved efforts to destroy the company's virtual infrastructure.

CSR
By its corporate social responsibility strategy, Kyivstar implements social responsibility projects in five areas: digital inclusion, development of innovative entrepreneurship, Internet security, corporate volunteering, and partnership for sustainable development. The company supports the UN Sustainable Development Goals and focuses on goals 4 (quality education), 8 (decent work and economic growth), 9 (innovation and infrastructure), and 17 (partnership for sustainable development).

In 2015, Kyivstar initiated the social and educational program Make Your Mark to support talented schoolchildren, programmers, startups, and young entrepreneurs. The initiative provides support to Ukrainian students who show the best results in the exact disciplines: science, technology, including information, engineering, robotics, and mathematics.

On August 8, 2017, Kyivstar started providing its subscribers with non-tariffed access to the Prometheus application, a platform for open online courses that offers a free selection of educational programs from the best Ukrainian and foreign teachers.

On November 30, 2017, Kyivstar launched the Sharity social platform to help charitable projects. As part of this initiative, the operator transferred UAH 1.6 million to the Tvoya Opora Charitable Foundation to provide medicines for children's heart surgeries.

Since 2017, Kyivstar has been supporting the GoCamp educational project in cooperation with the largest international volunteer initiative in Eastern Europe, GoGlobal. As part of the project, Ukrainian students learn foreign languages and communicate in a multicultural environment. Kyivstar initiated the development of an interactive training course Entrepreneurship & Innovation development. The company's specialists, as volunteers and mentors, organize training webinars for students and teachers.

On August 15, 2018, in Kharkiv, Kyiv, and Poltava regions, Kyivstar and the National Police of Ukraine launched the joint project "Search for Children". By the end of 2018, Kyivstar connected all regions of Ukraine to the service.

At the end of 2018, Kyivstar together with the International Charitable Foundation "Ukrainian Charity Exchange" launched the "Children's Hope" initiative to help children with heart disease and cancer. Kyivstar has created a transparent system that allows its subscribers to make charitable contributions quickly and conveniently via SMS. In 2021, the fee for the project exceeded ₴8 million. These funds were used to purchase equipment for more than 15 hospitals throughout Ukraine.

In September 2019, the operator launched Ukraine's first online mobile literacy school "Smartphone for parents" - an interactive video course for the older generation with step-by-step instructions, as well as an information campaign to bridge the digital divide and break stereotypes about technology. In December 2020, this project won the European Excellence Awards in the Telecommunications category, and also won bronze in the national competition Effie Awards Ukraine in the PR category, Corporate Reputation.

On February 11, 2020, together with the Ministry of Digital Transformation of Ukraine and the Office of the Presidential Commissioner for Children's Rights, Kyivstar launched an educational portal stop-sexting.in.ua and an information campaign #не_ведись.

In connection with the coronavirus pandemic in 2020, Kyivstar allocated UAH 30 million, of which UAH 30 million was charitable. In cooperation with the Tvoya Opora Charitable Foundation, the company provided Ukrainian hospitals with 10 ventilators with consumables, 20 patient monitors, and 6,851 reusable protective suits for medical staff at 30 support hospitals and 55 oxygen concentrators.

title: Kyivstar


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dogheart

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Joyous (talk) 03:16, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Dogheart
Non-notable band. No entry on AMG. EvilPhoenix talk 22:15, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable. Gwk 22:33, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, no claim to notability asserted. Dcarrano 00:19, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn band vanity. --Etacar11 02:28, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete non notable band vanity. JamesBurns 09:35, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Talk:Program

Untitled
Would it not be preferable to separate "program" and "programme" ? A radio programme is always spelt thus and a computer program is also always spelt that way - they are different words surely ?

Johnrcrellin 07:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Actualy, it's a locality thing. Programme is used in British and commonwealth English, and Program in American English. The two words are the same, it just depends on where you live as to which one is preferable. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 02:12, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes up to a point - I realise you are right and my comment was sparked by getting a very unexpected disambiguation. "Up to a point" because in British and Commonwealth computing communities it is always "program" (unless referring to a leaflet at a play, programme on television etc) and you can always tell an outsider by their use of "programme". (How terribly geeky !) Johnrcrellin 07:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I use "programme" for television, or radio; "program" for a computer program. This is in England. LooieENG 22:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

O.K, I've decided to take drastic action against you American fools. i don't care if this causes the links to become void. P R O G R A M M E IS THE CORRECT SPELLING. You Americans are all idiots. You've ruined our beautiful language. i hate you all. Sure, do what you like, but let it be known that "PROGRAM" IS AN INCORRECT SPELLING. HMSvictory 19:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I have reverted your change and issued you a vandalism warning; see WP:ENGVAR. Dicklyon 22:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

To go back to the original point, I believe there should be two entries. In English we are able to distinguish between computer program and TV programme, a feature that can be very useful. I realise that in the USA such a distinction is not possible but this can be reflected in the two separate entries. Markb (talk) 13:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That may be useful for those from the UK but it would be utterly confusing for American users. It is the same word after all. - Epson291 (talk) 08:39, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

another "program"
what about a "program" in "Minimalist Program" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.131.212.68 (talk) 13:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Programme / Program
The discussion on whether the page should be titled with one spelling or another, surely ought to be based on the number of native speakers' spelling conventions. If the majority (in the world) use 'programme' then that should be the first spelling used and variations should be noted in the text,and logically, vice versa. It's a tricky situation because according to the Manual of Style 'programme' is used in the UK, South Africa, New Zealand with Canada accepting both, whilst in the US and Australia 'program' is preferred. But the number of speakers who use the American spelling is probably greater - though it goes against my English upbringing :).Jayjase.88.5.151.93 (talk) 13:02, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Program has become standard in the UK when referring to computer programs. If talking about a television programme then the alternate spelling is used. --86.54.181.194 (talk) 14:19, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Of course, let's discount completely the non-caucasian nations who use British English as an official language... India alone decisively settles the demographic argument in favour of the British variation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.34.159 (talk) 05:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Cleanup
I did a cleanup according to WP:MOSDAB (overview WP:DABYESNO). It's possible that more of the entries are not solely known as either of the two ambiguous terms. The sections are not in alphabetical order which is OK with me, but given that I'd prefer the Science and technology as the top section. Thoughts? Widefox ; talk 23:47, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It's possible that the page has undergone a lot of changes since then, because it's still FAR from the intent of WP:MOSDAB. I'm going through right now and removing all of the "dictionary definitions," for instance, but there still remains much to do in other regards. -- John (Johnnie Bob (talk) 01:47, 15 September 2020 (UTC))

title: Talk:Program


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cathy Godshall

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Sjakkalle (Check!)  13:04, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Cathy Godshall
Vanity page about a preschool director. Joyous (talk) 22:16, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Vanity. Gwk 22:32, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, nn. Dcarrano 00:20, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn vanity. --Etacar11 02:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete non notable vanity. JamesBurns 09:36, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
2005 Singaporean presidential election

Presidential elections were scheduled to be held in Singapore on 17 August 2005. 21 application forms for the Certificate of Eligibility required to contest were collected, and forms were submitted by four candidates. After considering the candidate's applications, the Presidential Elections Committee issued only one Certificate of Eligibility to the incumbent, Sellapan Ramanathan.

S.R. Nathan was the only candidate to stand nominated and thus was re-elected uncontested due to the lack of other eligible candidates. S.R. Nathan previously served as Singapore's Ambassador of the United States from 1990 to 1996. He continued his second term as the sixth President of Singapore.

Andrew Kuan's background
On 9 August, Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong called for all candidates to be open about their records, so that Singaporeans could make an informed judgment on them. He also encouraged Andrew Kuan's former employers to come forward, speak freely and tell Singaporeans what they knew about him.

On 11 August, Kuan's former employer, JTC, held a news conference to outline the circumstances leading to Kuan's resignation in July 2004. Chong Lit Cheong, JTC's chief executive officer, stated that Andrew Kuan's work at JTC had been unsatisfactory since his first year there, and he had been asked to resign twice, once in 2003 and again in 2004. No details as to how his work was unsatisfactory were provided, other than a note that no fraud or other crime was involved, and he needed "quite a fair bit of hand holding". In reply, Kuan noted that he had worked at JTC Corporation for 37 months, which had extended his contract several times, and he had been given performance bonuses and a raise during this period. Another company, Hyflux, also publicly criticised Kuan.

Later, Kuan was disqualified by the Presidential Elections Committee for failing to meet the criteria for running for president. The committee said Kuan's seniority and responsibility as JTC's chief financial officer were not comparable to those required by the Constitution. A presidential candidate is required to have had experience as the chairman or CEO of a statutory board, or of a company with a paid-up capital of at least S$100 million.

title: 2005 Singaporean presidential election


text:
Perlo group

Headed by Victor Perlo, the Perlo group is the name given to a group of Americans who provided information which was given to Soviet intelligence agencies; it was active during the World War II period, until the entire group was exposed to the FBI by the defection of Elizabeth Bentley.

It had sources on the War Production Board, the Senate La Follette Subcommittee on Civil Liberties, and in the United States Department of Treasury.

Account of Elizabeth Bentley
On July 31, 1948, Elizabeth Bentley testified before the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC):  MISS BENTLEY: I had one other group that I handled, and I had every reason to believe there were other groups also. MR. STRIPLING: What was the other group that you handled? MISS BENTLEY: We called it the Perlo group. It was actually an ex-Communist Party unit that I believe had been set up in Washington in the early thirties, and I gather, from what the members of the group told me, that they had been in a minor way collecting information for some years but not in an organized fashion. Much useful additional information on the activities of the Perlo group was given by the Venona project. The first Venona transcript referencing the Perlo group gives the names of all the members in clear text, as code names had not yet been assigned.

Bentley advised that Jacob Golos informed her he had made contact with a group in Washington, D.C. through Earl Browder. After the death of Golos in 1943, two meetings were arranged with this group in 1944. The first meeting was arranged by Browder and was held in early 1944. The meetings were held in the apartment of John Abt in New York City and Bentley was introduced to four individuals identified as Victor Perlo, Charles Kramer, Harry Magdoff and Edward Fitzgerald.

Account of Whittaker Chambers
On August 3, 1948, Whittaker Chambers testified before HUAC:  "MR. CHAMBERS: The apparatus was organized with a leading group of seven men, each of whom was a leader of the cell. MR. STRIPLING: Could you name the seven individuals ? MR. CHAMBERS: The head of the group as I have said was at first Nathan Witt. Other members of the group were Lee Pressman, Alger Hiss, Donald Hiss, Victor Perlo, Charles Kramer... MR. STRIPLING: When Miss Bentley testified before the committee last Saturday, Mr. Chambers, she mentioned the name of Victor Perlo as being the head of an espionage group. You have named Victor Perlo as a member of the apparatus. MR. CHAMBERS: Yes. MR. STRIPLING: At that time do you know whether or not Victor Perlo was employed in the Government? MR. CHAMBERS: I believe at that time Victor Perlo was employed by the Brookings Institution. MR. MUNDT: I think we read his employment record into the record of the hearing while Miss Bentley was testifying, did we not? MR. STRIPLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I have his employment history here. It is already in the record. MR. MUNDT: He was employed with the Government several times? MR. STRIPLING: That is true, and was with the Brookings Institution, also."   In his memoir (1952), Chambers recalled:  A crisis, he (J. Peters) said, had developed in the (Harold Ware) Group (following Ware's accidental death). Victor Perlo believed that he should succeed Ware as Group leader. He was being stubborn and surly about it. All the other members of the leadership believed that Nathan Witt was Ware's natural heir. A deadlock had resulted, for, though the rest might easily have outvoted Perlo, they did not wish to risk trouble in the Group by alienating him. Peters was also for Witt. So was I. But Peters did not wish to use his authority to act against any member of the Group in favor of another member. Peters asked me if I would come in and, since my personal authority was high with the Group, give my reasons why I was for Witt. I went in. I said that we must first of all treat the problem that had arisen as Communists, without personalities, and bearing in mind the peculiar nature of underground work and its unusual requirements, especially in the personal character of leadership. I asked Perlo's pardon for observing that he was a tense and nervous man, and that his very belief in his own qualifications for leadership, while perhaps quite justified, would actually be a handicap so long as it was not shared by the rest of the Group. Of course, we Communists did not believe in any mystical rightness of majorities over minorities, but we did believe in practical solutions to practical problems. Witt was acknowledged to be quiet, firm and solid. He had the confidence of all the members of the Group except Perlo. Therefore, I was for Witt. Perlo, of course, was unconvinced, but he agreed to abide by discipline. Thereafter, he would scarcely speak to me. Later, according to Elizabeth Bentley, he rose to the leadership he coveted in her espionage group.

Account in Venona
The Perlo group fits into the Venona project information when transcript # 687 of 13 May 1944 is examined. Iskhak Akhmerov in New York City personally prepared a report to MGB headquarters in Moscow advising that some unspecified action had been taken regarding Elizabeth Bentley in accordance with instructions of Earl Browder. Akhmerov then made reference to winter and also to Harry Magdoff. This latter reference was then followed by a statement that in Bentley's opinion "they" are reliable. It was also mentioned that no one had interested himself in their possibilities.

The name Golovin was mentioned, and it was then reported that Victor Perlo, Charles Kramer, Edward Fitzgerald and Harry Magdoff would take turns coming to New York every two weeks. Akhmerov said Kramer and Fitzgerald knew Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, whose cover name was later changed to "Robert".

Records in KGB Archives
Allen Weinstein and Alexander Vassiliev in Haunted Wood, a book written from an examination of KGB Archives in Moscow, report the KGB credits the Perlo group members with having sent, among other items, the following 1945 U.S. Government documents to Moscow:

February March April June August October
 * Contents of a WPB memo dealing with apportionment of aircraft to the USSR in the event of war on Japan;
 * WPB discussion of the production policy regarding war materials at an Executive Committee meeting;
 * Documents on future territorial planning for commodities in short supply;
 * Documents on a priority system for foreign orders for producing goods in the United States after the end of the war in Europe;
 * Documents on trade policy and trade controls after the war;
 * Documents on arms production in the United States in January 1945;
 * A WPB report on "Aluminum for the USSR and current political issues in the U.S. over aluminum supplies" (2/26/45);
 * Documents concerning the committee developing plans for the U.S. economy after the defeat of Germany, and also regarding war orders for the war against Japan;
 * Documents on the production of the B-29 bomber and the B-32;
 * Tactical characteristics of various bombers and fighters;
 * Materials on the United States using Saudi Arabian oil resources;
 * Data concerning U.S. war industrial production in May from the WPB's secret report;
 * Data concerning plans for a 1945–1946 aircraft production from the WPB;
 * More data on specific aircraft's technical aspects;
 * Data concerning the new Export-Import Bank;
 * Data concerning supplies of American aircraft to the Allies in June 1945;
 * Data from the top secret WPB report on U.S. war industry production in June;
 * Detailed data concerning the industrial capacities of the Western occupation zones of Germany that could be brought out as war reparations;
 * Information on views within the U.S. Army circles concerning the inevitability of war against the USSR as well as statements by an air force general supporting U.S. acquisition of advanced bases in Europe for building missiles.

Members
Victor Perlo headed the Perlo group. Perlo was originally allegedly a member of the Ware group before World War II. After receiving a master's degree in mathematics from Columbia University in 1933, Perlo worked at a number of New Deal government agencies among a group of economists known as "Harry Hopkins' bright young men." The group worked, among other things, for creation and implementation of the WPA jobs program, and helped push through unemployment compensation, the Wagner National Labor Relations Act, the Fair Labor Standards Act, and Social Security. During World War II, Perlo served in several capacities, working first as chief of the Aviation Section of the War Production Board, then in the Office of Price Administration, and later for the Treasury Department. Perlo left the government in 1947. Perlo also worked for the Brookings Institution and wrote American Imperialism. Perlo's code name in Soviet intelligence was "Eck" and "Raid" appearing in Venona project as "Raider".

 * Victor Perlo, Chief of the Aviation Section of the War Production Board; head of branch in Research Section, Office of Price Administration Department of Commerce; Division of Monetary Research Department of Treasury; Brookings Institution
 * Edward Fitzgerald, War Production Board
 * Harold Glasser, Deputy Director, Division of Monetary Research, United States Department of the Treasury; United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration; War Production Board; Advisor on North African Affairs Committee; United States Treasury Representative to the Allied High Commission in Italy
 * Charles Kramer, Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization; Office of Price Administration; National Labor Relations Board; Senate Subcommittee on Wartime Health and Education; Agricultural Adjustment Administration; Senate Subcommittee on Civil Liberties; Senate Labor and Public Welfare Committee; Democratic National Committee
 * Harry Magdoff, Statistical Division of War Production Board and Office of Emergency Management; Bureau of Research and Statistics, WTB; Tools Division, War Production Board; Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, United States Department of Commerce
 * Allen Rosenberg, Board of Economic Warfare; Chief of the Economic Institution Staff, Foreign Economic Administration; Senate Subcommittee on Civil Liberties; Senate Committee on Education and Labor; Railroad Retirement Board; Counsel to the Secretary of the National Labor Relations Board
 * Donald Wheeler, Office of Strategic Services Research and Analysis division

title: Perlo group


text:
User talk:Daydream~enwiki

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title: User talk:Daydream~enwiki


text:
Talk:Post-hardcore

Emo is Post-Hardcore?
Emo is not Post-Hardcore. Post-Hardcore is just a genre of music that you can relate to like people do rap. Emo is just a stupid made up emotional phase that really needs to be erased from peoples memories. To call a person "Emo" you must know, That you are also Emo. How? Because you are also one that is emotional. Emo is just a shortened word for Emotional. People that listen to Post-Hardcore or any music genre in that range is not emo, but just an Expressionalist. Karli Jo 05:03, 30 August 2013

emo is more of a branch off of hardcore punk, not hardcore, which are two entirely different things. so no, imho emo did not influence post-hardcore bands enough to have an impact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.254.206.107 (talk) 03:21, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Literally speaking, emo is post-hardcore, but they are two different styles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.204.92 (talk) 05:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC) y Rites of Spring would be considered both Post-Hardcore and Emo. The two terms are very related, but Post-Hardcore seems to be a lot broader. RKFS (talk) 19:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

What is the difference between them? I honestly have no idea. I was under the impression that the differentiation lay in the fact that the lyrical themes present in emo music are predominantly personal. Is it a necessity? Does this also a apply to Post hardcore? It is through the personal themes that i was able to identify Rites of Spring as an emo band. But after all they did come to as a result of the hardcore movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.63.34.43 (talk) 13:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Isn't "Emo" just short for "emotional rock?" I remember Good Charlotte referencing themselves as such on, of all things, the Jeff Dunham Show. 98.198.83.12 (talk) 05:53, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

"Emo" was disregarded by its 'creator'. Besides, you can't really call Big Black, Minutemen or Wipers "emo", can you? --190.157.153.179 (talk) 05:47, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

 * Emo is short for emotional hardcore/emocore. Good Charlotte are pop punk/pop rock, not Emo. Different forms of emo include bands like Dashboard Confessional, Jimmy Eat World, Silverstein, Hawthorne Heights, etc. Post-Hardcore and Emo are two different, yet related genres. I would consider Dashboard and Jimmy emo, but not post-hardcore, due to they dont use the basic charecteristics of ph(two guitars-electric, one clean the other heavy & chunky; relativity to screamo and/or hardcore/hardcore punk). Emo was first. Then Post-hardcore. Screamo came from ph mixed with other things. Just look at the time line. Rights of spring and Embrace (two emocore/emo bands) existed before Ph. Perhaps Emo had influence on Ph, which is from hardcore and other elements. toKEn 22:31, 12 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Token714 (talk • contribs)
 * Per Wikipedia, Big Black existed before Rites of Spring. And they've been considered post-hardcore. That being said, this is a little bit of a forum discussion. --186.82.60.241 (talk) 02:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Emo is not post-hardcore. While Emo could be short for Emotive/emotional Hardcore or midwest emo, I'd say it'd be better to use it as an umbrella term for all emo related sub genres (including screamo). In my opinion, Emotive Hardcore is a subgenre of Post-Hardcore. This goes in two phases. The first phase is something that resembles slower paced melodic hardcore but sounds more emotionally expressive, sad and has some different riffing. That's where the famous rites of spring and embrace belong to along with stuff like Dag Nasty, Ignition, Grey Matter, etc. Then cam the second phase which writer of blog You Don't Need Maps calls Basement Emo. (See: https://www.reddit.com/r/Emo/comments/439tfq/emo_history_lesson_part_2_basement_emo/). Bands like Indian Summer and Navio Forge do this. While he seems to considers it a seperate genre, I've seen emotive hardcore applied to these bands as well as it fits the name. Here it really started to become its own thing. They started to sound more and more and more emotional, and had guitar riffs and chords more similar to what people typically associate with Post-Hardcore. Punk Rock/Hardcore Punk/Post-Punk related post-hardcore came earlier with stuff like NoMeansNo, and Noise Rock related post-hardcore came earlier as well. But I'd say Emotive Hardcore was when Post-Hardcore really became its own thing. It's how we got the later emotive hardcore, it's how we got post hardcore like Fugazi and Drive Like Jehu, it's how we got midwest emo (Emotive Hardcore + Indie RocK), it's how we got screamo (Midwest Emo + very abrasive emotive hardcore), etc. I'd say plenty of midwest emo is more of an offshoot of post-hardcore however. Emo kind of became its own thing at some point. Also, hardcore and hardcore punk technically ARE the same thing. Hardcore either just stands for hardcore punk, or is an umbrella term for all hardcore related genres. People tend to use hardcore for beat down hardcore and metalcore acts. But beatdown hardcore is just a slower type of hardcore punk with slow thrash metal influences, and metalcore is just a fusion genre of Beatdown hardcore and extreme metal. Yes, these types of hardcore are different things, but they are very closely related and still types of hardcore punk. It only really becomes murky because the word hardcore became used mostly for metalcore and melodic metalcore acts. And Melodic Metalcore is more based in Melodic Death Metal than Hardcore Punk, which causes it to sound more like hardcore metal music than punk. Stayskeptic (talk) 11:21, 15 November 2017 (UTC)StaySkeptic

Describing the 2000's Post-Hardcore
I saw this article here, and saw that it wasn't very specific about the STYLE of music. It is much different from early Post-Hardcore. I attempted to do this myself, but I do not know whether I need to reference the SOUND of these bands...like, do I really need a source that backs up that these new p-h bands are more melodic and commercial? Thanks for the help~New poster (DeepPurple) 05:02, 22 February 2009 (UTC).
 * Most likely it will need to be cited, but then again there aren't a whole lot of sources that say what it is even though it's thrown around a lot. In any case this section looks a lot better than the ones I've seen on the page (not to mention that it's actually reliably sourced, for once). It'll probably need some cleaning up, but I'll help as much as I can. TheLetterM (talk) 05:37, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I wish you luck on finding some good reliable sources. Mainstream media describes 2000s post-hardcore bands as either emo or screamo. Fezmar9 (talk) 06:16, 22 February 2009 (UTC)\

Thanks guys. For the first part of my description (that the 2000's bands are identified as Emo/Screamo I was thinking of using the Screamo page's citation on it, to show that they are often interchangeable, but I do not know how to cite things properly. Can anyone care to help? Sorry, I just got into this, so I need some help and stuff. As for the citations that describe what is called 'screamo' as post-hardcore, I'm sure that if we look hard enough, we will find at least one. Thank for all the help, I shall try and to my best to find those darn citations User:D33PPURPLE D33PPURPLE (talk) 21:53, 22 February 2009 (UTC).

Oi, just found an article in Rhapsody that describest he 2000's wave as more melodic with sometimes metallic edge. Not only that, but it described this post-hardcore as Emo Post-Hardcore, so I'm going on to post that. I will paste the website here: http://www.rhapsody.com/alt-punk/emo-hardcore/post-hardcore/more.html

Can someone cite it for me, or tell me how to do it? Thanks! D33PPURPLE (talk) 22:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC) User:D33PPURPLE
 * This might not classify as a reliable source. This is just a short description written on an online media player, and not a published source. Fezmar9 (talk) 23:25, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

So, rhapsody doesn't count? I would think that a big name company (?) would qualify, merely because it is a big musically commercial company that seems like a defining musical authority, know what I mean? Kinda like AMG...but I suppose if that doesn't count, I can find another one... User:D33PPURPLED33PPURPLE (talk) 00:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Rhapsody is considered a store much like amazon.com or iTunes, which are not considered published sources. Their descriptions are also typically copied and pasted from other sources around the net. If you google a specific passage from the rhapsody description in quotes you might be able to find it. Fezmar9 (talk) 01:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Aight. I'll do that soon as I find time. There HAS to be at least one source... [User:D33PPURPLE] D33PPURPLE (talk) 00:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Can't find any sources...>_>...Ah...would it be okay to cite a source saying that Thrice brought more melody to the Post-Hardcore sound, then cite AMG reviews where they say Emo is a more commercial and melodic type, while the post-hardcore sound is the harsher sounds heard in Post-hardcore? And from there describe the sound? D33PPURPLE (talk) 18:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC)D33PPURPLE
 * Sounds like original research. You will need to find a source that directly supports your claims. Fezmar9 (talk) 18:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Where is the source that some how compares Helmet ect from the early 90's to the screemo/emo after NU metal from 2000 on? Labeling it post hardcore is not going to legitimize it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.151.134.79 (talk) 09:48, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Unreferenced 2000s section
Sooo....we're REALLY going to call bands like Thrice, Thursday, Underoath, and freaking GLASSJAW post-hardcore? I don't think so... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.184.165.20 (talk) 19:48, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, if no sources come around to support claims that those bands fall into the genre, probably not. While I do recognize that a good deal of music journalism does refer to the aforementioned bands as "post-hardcore", we've yet to see a single source for that in the 2000s section. It's been tagged since August, that whole section could essentially be deleted at any time -- though at least it's not as bad as when this article had that "bands considered as art-rock" section that people just kept adding and deleting bands from. That was a mess. TheLetterM (talk) 03:30, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * All right, I think it's time for an ultimatum. The 2000s section is currently used by editors to bicker over whether or not bands like Rise Against or Scary Kids Scaring Kids are post-hardcore, and the whole thing is unreferenced. If no references are cited by next week I'm deleting the whole thing. TheLetterM (talk) 03:10, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

If you're prepared to delete it, which genre do you propose to switch the bands to? The only definition of post-hardcore at the moment is loud guitar based instrumentation with a mixture of screams and singing. However much people don't like it the 2000's bands fit into that definition.84.69.227.157 (talk) 21:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not that the bands don't fit into the genre that's an issue. As much as I don't like the bands described, I do recognize that the term "post-hardcore" is adequate to describe the bands in the 2000s section. The issue is that it's completely unreferenced and people edit war over what bands should be included. AllMusic probably tags specific bands under the genre, that's probably the best place to start. I wish I was able to find more sources for the section myself, but the genre specifications are so nebulous to begin with anyway. TheLetterM (talk) 00:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

shouldnt there be stuff about todays post hardcore bands? Like alesana and eyes set to kill? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.153.86.79 (talk) 05:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I added that 2000's section check out the wikipedia pages on those bands if you want a source they will all say POST-HARDCORE the description of the genre is in the music what more of source do you need.
 * That's not a reliable source. Reliable sources are what a 2000s section needs to be on the page, something that it didn't have. TheLetterM (talk) 14:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. Unless someone starts adding sources, the 2000s section ought to be deleted. WP:NOR. Aryder779 (talk) 02:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I removed the latest editions of the 2000s section since it was eventually going to turn into edit-warring. I will reiterate: This page can't have a section on "modern" Post-hardcore without reliable sources, otherwise there's no way to verify any of the information added. I also want to stress that I do want to see a 2000s section on this page. I don't doubt that it exists by any stretch of the imagination, but without any sources to show it exists, it can't remain on this page. TheLetterM (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Attention anyone who knows...
After listening to alot of p-core lately, comparing bands and thinking...

lately alot of people have been calling bands like Alesana, Saosin, and Silverstein emo and screamo (which is a load of bull), and the less ignorant people have been proving this wrong and dismissing these bands as post-hardcore, i'm starting to realize that these bands aren't really that either, some of them are or have melodic metalcore in them, but I don't know what genre they are, if anybody knows, post it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.133.193 (talk) 00:17, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Silverstein without a shadow of a doubt is Post-Hardcore collisions of vocals is your indication.

Saosin Questionable I'm not even sure where to place them but it's not Post-Hardcore I don't even think there was any screaming in the recent Album perhaps one track. Although, doesn't consist of a typical rock vibe.

Alesana More Post-Hardcore than not although as you cleared up the instrumentation can bring out quite a melodic tune. And typically the lead singer doesn't just scream in a post-Hardcore band (Or so I've noticed) as alesana performs quite the opposite. But, I have to admit I do not know this one. -Bliker Blah

Note: Last.fm is quite a reliable source for band/genre placement. It's all based on how many people agree what the band sounds like... So on the more popular bands it's more often than not wrong at least in the opinion of myself.- Bliker Blah "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."
 * Uhh, Last.fm is definitely not a reliable source:
 * Because the material on Last.fm is mostly user generated, it's not "reliable". TheLetterM (talk) 02:18, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

... if you would have read what I typed on this page you wouldn't of had to state user generated and in my opinion that's what makes the genre placement so reliable it's because it's based off majority vote and it gives numerous. I would agree with what ever the band told me they where over anything else. But, last.fm displays the divrsity in the band through a list of genres. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.240.88 (talk) 06:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * But that's the thing, it's the users who are dictating the content on Last.fm. To compare, let's consider AllMusic.com. To make posts and scrobble plays on Last.fm, you don't need to prove you're a reputable music journalist and can post really whatever you want. Of course, people may disagree with you but no one can effectively stop you from sharing your opinion. On the other hand, the writers for AllMusic are either AMG staff or freelance writers, but any content posted on the website goes through an editing board. That's what makes AllMusic a reliable source over Last.fm. TheLetterM (talk) 19:11, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Post-Hardcore: Electronicore/Synthcore
Anybody want to elaborate on the recent increase in use of the synthesizer and other "Keys" within the genre of Post-Hardcore. I mean to me it's seems as if the New wave of Post-Hardcore is already experiencing Another type of new "wave". Bands That in my opinion seem to be making this wave grow rapidly in popularity would have to be Attack Attack!, Motionless In White, and House vs. Hurricane. Even bands such as A skylit Drive and Scary kids Scaring Kids Have constant use of an electronic instrument although, not making the sound as much of a spectacle as the previous bands listed.

P.S. Not exactly concerned with logging in so just -Bliker Blah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.240.88 (talk) 19:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that most of these bands who are using more synth are "Melodic Metalcore" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.222.150.244 (talk) 01:00, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

No, actually...there is a lot of 2000's Post-hardcore (I call it screamcore) bands using electronics lately. It's not a new wave, per-se. I'd say it's just new bands trying to break free of the pack by adding th

I think we should make a page for Electronicore/Synthcore

D33PPURPLE (talk) 18:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)D33PPURPLE

I'm already working on it (<-- see this page). The reason that I'm not ready to create the page is because I need to find a reliable source that is dedicated to defining/explaining electronicore itself. While the page contains many reliable references that make significant comments about the style, the focus of the reference is usually a specific band or album. If someone could help me find a reliable reference that focuses on what electronicore is, the page would be complete. Leave a comment on my talk page if you find something useful. --  ♪ ChrisBkoolio     ... (Talk)   01:09, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * So far it looks really nice! Hope you find something. If I stumble across anything, I'll let you know.-- ¿3fam  ily6  contribs 01:56, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I always appreciate your help. Keep up the good work, man.--  ♪ ChrisBkoolio     ...    (Talk)    02:00, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Canadian Post-Hardcore
It is mentioned in the article but only mentions two bands. There are many more well known post-hardcore groups from canada. Protest The Hero is often called Post-Hardcore, Billy Talent is Post Hardcore, Moneen has been called post-hardcore, why aren't these bands in there? There are more too but I can't remember them right now. Can these be sourced and included? I'm terrible with refrences myself so can someone do that? KezianAvenger (talk) 02:28, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

There are also way more post-hardcore bands from the U.S., Britain, France, Brazil, Venezuela that are not mentioned in the article. I would flag country status as irrelevant unless the origin added something to the music. For example, Brazilian post-hardcore sometimes incorporates Portuguese influence into the music. Saying that Canada has their own supply of post-hardcore bands says nothing that contributes to the article in any way -- at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdgallag84 (talk • contribs) 00:28, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm removing the "Artists" section
Enormous sections like these often breed plenty of edit wars, so it's better that it's not here. Furthermore, it's supposed to be an "artists" section but only lists bands from the 2000s. If you disagree, feel free to add it back but not without discussing it here. TheLetterM (talk) 22:31, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Recent Trends
I've put back the two last paragraphs in the History section because they are written in a "time line/music style evolution" point of view, describing the more recent trends in this music style. If we add a "various trends" section we should describe and specify all the trends through the history of post-hardcore and not only those two (Electronic & Experimental/Progressive).--Locopunkie (talk) 01:39, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The whole section needs to be rewritten and resourced as well. The entire section is original research and few of the sources directly support the claims. Some of the sources also do not qualify as reliable sources. None of the sources acknowledge a new wave or recent trend in post-hardcore. What are we even defining as a recent trend? Most of these bands formed around the same time as the previous "wave". There have also been numerous progressive post-hardcore bands in the last decade. In fact, some of the bands cited as influences on this "new wave" actually are progressive post-hardcore bands. Also, this article claims post-hardcore is an experimental off shoot of hardcore punk. So is PMtoday an experimental experimental hardcore punk band? Fezmar9 (talk) 03:20, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Here is a source that actually acknowledges a "new wave" of post-hardcore bands, with bands like Touche Amore, La Dispute, Native, Pianos Become the Teeth, Make Do and Mend. So far it's the only source on this new wave that I can find. This probably shouldn't be added until more sources can be found and more of these bands have stand-alone articles. Keep your eyes open! Fezmar9 (talk) 20:43, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, here is a pretty good one. Fezmar9 (talk) 22:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll just collect sources for this new trend here for the time being. Fezmar9 (talk) 22:35, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Melodic hardcore
On the post-hardcore page it says melodic hardcore is a derivative of post-hardcore. On the melodic hardcore page it says post-hardcore is a derivative of melodic hardcore. Can we get that straightened out? Also, I agree with the need for a rewrite of the "recent trends" section. Most of those bands are more progressive than the rest of today's post-hardcore, but are more similar to an older style of post-hardcore, because of the fact that they don't have as many "pop" music influences. Therefore the "progressive post-hardcore" bands are actually playing a genre that is, arguably, more true to post-hardcore than the popular post-hardcore bands being labelled screamo. I mean how can you have an experimental post-hardcore band if post-hardcore is basically "experimental hardcore". NoremacDaGangsta (talk) 22:22, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Actually Melodic Hardcore is an offshoot of Hardcore/Hardcore Punk mixed with Post-Hardcore. In recent years, its been gaining Pop Punk influences also. It seems this trio of genres have been playing off of each other. Take Title Fight for instance, they are Melodic Hardcore and blend elements of Post-Hardcore and Pop Punk. Also, a lot of Pop Punk bands have been involved with Melodic Hardcore (i.e., Four Year Strong, New Found Glory, A Day To Remember). This can be confusing if you don't listen to the music, of course.toKEn 22:10, 12 March 2011 (UTC) *SORRY, IM STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT THIS SIGNATURE THING* — Preceding unsigned comment added by Token714 (talk • contribs)

"Post-hardcore" is getting way too much emphasis on Wikipedia.
We need to make a "Hardcore" article. "Hardcore" should not re-direct to "Hardcore Punk". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.60.80.54 (talk) 00:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

 * While Hardcore (Terror_(band), Death_Before_Dishonor_(Boston_band), Youth Of Today) and Hardcore Punk (Black Flag, Bad Brains, Minor Threat) are different, they are the same genre. Confusing, I know. But, it's not so confusing if you actually listen to both. Just use common sense, where did Hardcore come from??? Hardcore Punk. I get what you mean by different, trust me. But the two are the same genre. People just refer to them with different names to distinguish the sound and era. Hardcore Punk-early. Hardcore-late 80's-present. All genres change a bit. They adapt to peoples liking. Ask yourself, "Is Rock 'n' Roll considered rock?". The two are different in style and time era, but they are nonetheless the same genre. They grew with other influences, what the audiences wanted to hear, and/or by what the artist(s) wanted to play. If genres didnt change, we'd be stuck in a musical time warp. toKEn 22:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Token714 (talk • contribs)

Proposal to delete "Various trends" section
This section has been tagged for five months, yet no one has taken the time to address the issues. The information is poorly sourced, but because sources are present it gives the appearance of verification. For example, there are two sources claiming that "experimental and progressive" post-hardcore bands are influenced by At the Drive In, however this band is not at all mentioned in the two sources provided. Most of the information follows that same pattern, a source is present but the source does not verify the claims. The description of electronic hardcore is very vague and leaves several holes. For example, Emery and These Arms are Snakes are two post-hardcore bands that feature synthesizers, however you will probably never find a source documenting these bands as "electronicore" as none exist. Also, a lot of the examples of "electronic" post-hardcore are actually metalcore. The entire section is original research that cannot be verified. And even if it could be verified, acknowledging these styles seems to be the minority view and WP:WEIGHT comes into play. Fezmar9 (talk) 16:57, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

 * There's also the earlier example of bands like Six Finger Satellite and The VSS, they were also incorporating electronic sound into post-hardcore, and yet, no, I haven't seen them labeled as electronicore either. I think both sections can be merged into the 2000s section with no problem at all and end of story. --186.82.60.241 (talk) 08:09, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

 * I'm not really sure how you would go about doing that. None of the sources provided acknowledge a trend, and as we've both pointed out, many bands have incorporated electronics before the so called "new wave" of bands. So it could really be merged anywhere in the article as a part of any decade. But it could only be mentioned as "some bands incorporated other elements like electronics and synthesizers such as and ." And even then, why bother? Are any of these bands notable? Have any of these bands made any impact? Fezmar9 (talk) 15:23, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

 * They seem to have commercial success, but apart from that, not many. Perhaps their success and some of their influences could be named, and whatever is unreferenced/is original research can be outright deleted --186.82.60.241 (talk) 19:11, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Which groups would you plan on listing? Many of the bands already in this article are actually metalcore. Fezmar9 (talk) 21:08, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

 * I don't know man, to be honest, I haven't read much content (or heard a lot) about most of these 00s bands, I think it'd be better if someone who knew more about the theme voiced their (hopefully sourced) opinion about what to do with the content so we can reach a sort of consensus. I guess I was voicing mine, judging by your comments as well as how the post-1990s section looks right now.

 * I've been giving the article a major re-vamp for its two first decades, seeing how the old one gave undue weight to later acts, adding sourced content mostly, as can be seen, from Allmusic, but also from an important source such as Dischord. I am worried this is gonna give more weight to earlier acts though (in spite of their importance and influence to later acts), so if anyone has any good ideas for additional content for the 2000's section, it wouldn't be a problem at all. That being said, as I can see, these later acts tend to gain mostly popular acclaim, while earlier acts have received widespread attention from critics while usually mantaining a somewhat modest, but respectable and devoted following. --186.82.60.241 (talk) 22:48, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Two unreliable ref tags in "2000s" section
There were two references in the "2000s" section of this article that were tagged as unreliable. Since I was the one that added these refs, I thought I'd defend their reliability on the talk page. The first one is an interview with Ross Robinson published by Metal Insider. The interview was published by Bram Teitelman, who has also written for Noisecreep and a Google News search suggests he's written for a couple other publications since 2003 as well, including a gig with Billboard. The interview was conducted by Emily Lazar, who apparently has some experience in interviewing based on the intro statement, but I'm not really sure of anything she's done outside of the source in question. And... I also wanted to make a statement about the other ref I used, but it looks like it's a dead link that redirects to an entirely different website now for whatever reason. I'll just go dig up another one. Fezmar9 (talk) 15:43, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for catching that. I don't have the time to investigate every writer, so that is bound to happen. Thank you again for following up on that.--3family6 (talk) 16:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

 * I think most editors will (understandably) consider any publication lacking a Wiki article as an unreliable source. And I felt it was my responsibility to demonstrate notability since I was the one who added them. Thank you for simply tagging where needed instead of throwing out the information with the source! Fezmar9 (talk) 22:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Similar unreliable ref tag in the 1980s "Origins" sub-section
It seems appropiate that I'd also defend the use and reliability of the Guy Peters' source. It seems that he's worked with this belgian music magazine with more than 500 articles to date, while the site also holds in their archives several interviews with a bunch of notable bands (from what I've browsed, I've seen Bloc Party, Maximo Park and Mogwai in their lists). More notably, one of his concert reviews has been linked from Mike Watt's homepage, along with interviews and reviews of him found in sources such as The New York Times and Billboard. Watt himself seems to me as a reliable third-party source. --190.159.187.70 (talk) 00:37, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure about the first magazine, is it professional and/or have a print version? The NYT and Billboard sources are very good, so as long as he isn't used for band biographies, Guy Peters' appears to be reliable.--3family6 (talk) 01:47, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm removing the unreliable source tag from the Guy Peters source then. And, well, the mention of Goddeau was mostly to describe his work with a professional site, upon further research I've also found that, while not having a print version, it seems to be a recognized Belgian webzine, having even it's own page on the Dutch language Wikipedia. --190.159.187.70 (talk) 03:47, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * An editor removed Guy Peters' because of unreliability, and I will revert it if it can be shown he is an expert. I'm having trouble understanding the first post. Is Guy Peters' used in NYT and Billboard, or Mike Watt? (Webzines aren't reliable unless content written by paid staff with editorial oversight.)--3family6 (talk) 12:41, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

A question
Would it be possible to merge the "notable fusions" section? it seems that it has to do entirely with the 2000s, and well, if there's one seeming characteristic of, even earlier post-hardcore groups, is incorporating new influences to their hardcore/post-hardcore sound (ie: Nation of Ulysses and jazz, Refused and electronic music, Fugazi and dub, etc.) So I don't see why should we give some sort of priority to these apparently (and largely unsourced -possibly original research?-, as the "not in citation given" and "unreliable source" tags seem to indicate) notable fusions --190.159.187.70 (talk) 21:13, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Go ahead, I agree with you, and when merged, if a lot of the unsourced material is removed, all the better. Also, there is no mention of Nintendocore, which is definitely a notable fusion. The Nintendocore article should have the sources needed.--3family6 (talk) 21:18, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Overreliance on reviews
This article is too reliant on reviews for its sourcing. In fact, few or no reviews at all should be sourced as they are more pertinent to articles on specific albums than to a broad overview of the genre, not to mention reviews are essentially opinion pieces as opposed to proper historical reporting. Additionally the page is awfully bogged down by minutiae due to citing so many reviews for overly specific details. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:39, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As long as the review actually discusses the history of the stylistic trends it is being used to support, it's fine. However, a lot of the reviews cited on here do not discuss the actual history. Thanks for double checking, I've been trying to do the same with all the edits by the IP editor on here (who overall is doing a really good job), but I'm short on time.--3family6 (talk) 12:20, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

 * I think this might be true. I also don't like how the last paragraph in the Washington D.C. section became. Though in a way I think that the characteristics of some peculiarly influential or notorious albums (13 Songs, Rites of Spring's debut, Shape of Punk to Come, VA compilations like State of the Union) should be outlined, but putting them in historical and not purely critical perspective. I'm moving some of these album-specific statements to the respective album or artist pages considering how some of them may need expansion (and sources). As for the WP:SYNTH template, any specific comments about that? --190.159.187.70 (talk) 00:40, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Re-added electronic fusion header
The trouble with this is that, well, bands like The VSS and Six Finger Satellite were doing some sort of thing like that 10 years before, and just as I've pointed out, this could be considered as part of bands incorporating different influences themselves. And i don't think it should stand as a section of its own, unless historically for the last past years or so there has been a sort of scene that seems to share that common quality (references only point out to those particular cases), like the examples of D.C. and San Diego. Perhaps saying that the genre is influential for the nintendocore style seems important for it's own sub-section, but even so I don't think there's enough material for that to happen. I'm removing the header, but if anyone opposes, please discuss it here --190.159.187.70 (talk) 19:46, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Nintendocore
There's not much out there drawing a connection between post-hardcore specifically and Nintendocore. It seems to be a genre that mixes 8-bit sounds with really any style at all. Of all the bands listed at Category:Nintendocore musical groups, none of them mention post-hardcore in their respective Wiki articles. And of the sources linked here, only the allmusic bio for Horse the Band suggests a direct link between post-hardcore and nintendocore. However, Horse the Band are more commonly accepted as a metalcore  band anyways. So, the connection between the Nintendocore and post-hardcore is weak. The connection between the only band that is sometimes referred to as post-hardcore and Nintendocore is weak. I do not see a reason to include any mention of Nintendocore in this article. Fezmar9 (talk) 00:51, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) The allmusic ref is very, very, very clear in saying that Nintendocore is a post-hardcore subgenre. 2) What does it matter if Horse the Band is also metalcore? I can provide plenty of refs saying they are also post-hardcore. (Be aware that some of the refs you provided might not pass WP:RS, and at least two don't actually call the band metalcore.) 3) Why can't the genre be a host of styles? If you read the article on Nintendocore, its says its a bunch of styles.--3family6 (talk) 12:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

 * All of my sources were collected through GoogleNews, and I suppose the third one really doesn't mention it. My bad. Although I can't seem to find it right now, there exists a Wiki Essay about how, in some instances, Wikipedia can be it's own source. If information sits on Wikipedia long enough, third-party publications will eventually report on it, and whether it's true or not, those news articles become references on Wikipedia. The Nintendocore article sat as a sad little stub-class article for many years. It was deleted in 2005, so I cannot tell how long it existed before then, but it was later recreated in 2006. (Interestingly enough, it existed for a while in 2007 without mentioning a hardcore influence at all, and featured two reliable sources, neither of which mention either post-hardcore or Horse the Band). So while you'll be able to find a few sources that draw a connection between post-hardcore and nintendocore, what I'm not seeing are any artists that actually played this specific hybrid after Horse the Band. Your last point seems to support my argument here: if nintedocore is an umbrella term for artists who incorporate nintendo sounds into any other genre, then how does it make logical sense to say post-hardcore had an influence on the genre? Horse the Band might have been the "first group" in this movement, but unless their specific hybrid was actually carried out by additional artists after them, then post-hardcore just did not have an influence–despite what any source will tell you. Fezmar9 (talk) 21:17, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Assistance needed!
Hi everyone. I'm aware that the talk page for the article Post-hardcore is designed to host discussion about that article specifically, but there's something else troubling me. The article Screamo has recently been vandalized heavily. Individuals are removing referenced information, often entire sections. It seems that many resist certain definitions of the term. Anyways, I wish that a few more qualified Wikipedians would watch that page in order to defend it from this sort of activity. If I posted this statement on the talk page for Screamo, well, very few people watch the page so it wouldn't make much of an impact. I don't use Wikipedia as often as I used to, so I don't have time to revert ever vandal's edit. It takes MANY people to keep a page orderly. Thank you for listenning (/reading, actually). --  ♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫    ... (Talk)   03:14, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

 * This is likely because pages like List of screamo bands have become a dumping ground for any music that has screaming in it, because people can't be bothered to learn what they're talking about before editing articles, and their use of references to similarly oblivious music publications prevents it from being fixed. EznorbYar (talk) 03:37, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

senses fail
I think senses fail should be talked about on here because they're like the best post hardore band out there. oh yeah and hawthorne heights too — Preceding unsigned comment added by SomedayCameSuddenly (talk • contribs) 01:58, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Addition of possible OR text
The following text keeps being added:

"While post-hardcore is usually confused with metalcore and screamo, they are two completely different genres."

Now, for one, isn't the fact that we dedicate a separate article and post-hardcore isn't a redirect to either of those genres kind of telling that this is a separate genre from those (in spite of perhaps having some connection)? In any case, I wouldn't mind this so much if it was sourced like it's the case of this section in Screamo, which presents a verifiable POV related to the (possibly wrong and vague) usage of the term, but it seems that the statement keeps being added with no sources and just based on the thought that "because x isn't y (even if it's often confused for it), it must definitely be x", kind of incurring in WP:SYNTH. The genre infobox also marks the distinction between post-hardcore and the genres it breeded/influenced/it's related to, so it seems that it's rather pointless, especially for an article intro, unless it was gonna signal something else later in the article.

Unno, seems as a rather silly point to argue about, but what do you guys think? --190.157.154.245 (talk) 02:27, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

The Wave
I've been giving thought to starting up a new article to cover bands affiliated with "The Wave" (e.g. Touche Amore, La Dispute, Pianos Become the Teeth, Make Do And Mend) but it seems maybe it could just be added as a new section in the post-hardcore article. I'm admittedly not actually an expert on how all these bands are affiliated or if there really is any formal affiliation between them, but it seems like a new trend in post-hardcore that has grown in popularity over the past few years. Anyone have any thoughts one way or the other on this? tdogg241T C 20:07, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

 * I've actually been having the exact same thoughts recently. I've come across a couple articles in the last year that were somewhat notable and might be good for writing a small section here. But then just last week, I purchased a digital subscription to Rock Sound's back catalog to expand an article in my sandbox. I also found a couple articles through that that would be good for writing something about The Wave, but I'm not sure if this information would be enough to warrant a stand-alone article? Or should it be merged with another article, and if so, which one? My hesitance to start a section on the Post-hardcore article would be that less and less sources are referring to The Wave as an offshoot of post-hardcore specifically, but rather just hardcore in general. Fezmar9 (talk) 04:00, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

 * It doesn't seem that the wave has achieved that much notability in its existance, it's most a 3-4 year old concept and probably while it's not significant can just be incorporated into the 2000's section of post-hardcore's history. I have been working in my sandbox aswell thinking about incorporating the wave into the history. The musical style section of each respective band pages has sources to start the writing of a section in post-hardcore. There could be a time when the wave does call for it's own section or even its own article but for now it seems okay to just add it to the 2000's because although the bands featured are getting more success in the 2010's the idea was put out in interviews and such in 2008. Jonjonjohny (talk) 10:09, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

 * The Wave bands have much more in common with traditional hardcore than they do with the modern iteration of post-hardcore. The Wave definitely seems to be entirely its own animal, and I'd be strongly in favour of it having its own article. EznorbYar (talk) 03:40, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Outdated article
I have notice this has not been edited for the start of the new decade yet. I don't see the point in adding a outdated template since this isn't that significant of a gap, maybe if it goes two years without additions. Just to outline what has happened this year: Four prominant bands Alexisonfire, The Bled, Thrice and Thursday have all broke up/ marked their hiatus. La Dispute, Touche Amore The Blackout, Funeral For a Friend and We Are The Ocean (to name a few) have all released albums. Glassjaw returned with the release of both a compilation EP and a new Extended Play, while Circle Takes the Square after many years released a brand new extended play with a second studio album following. letlive. re-released Fake History in 2011 and it received critical success. All five bands of "the wave" (there inclusion was mentioned in the "the wave" discussion above) are achieving more commercial and international success. Jonjonjohny (talk) 21:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

 * According to WP:RECENT, articles are to be written from a historical perspective. On writing about recent events, the documentation recommends to: "Just wait and see. Remember, there is no deadline. Editors writing today do not have a historical perspective on today's events, and should not pretend to have a crystal ball." It's far too early in this decade to really know which bands are and are not notable. There would be no use adding information that we believe to be notable today, only for the information to be substantially less than notable within a few years. Fezmar9 (talk) 22:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

 * Thats true, perhaps I am being too hasty but to be honest i just thought it was worth mentioning for reference, in a way alot has happened this year for this scene/genre. Jonjonjohny (talk) 23:24, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

 * Perhaps this difficulty stems from the genre's very definition in terms of what it followed, rather than what it is. Some people consider it little more than a watered-down, apologetic form of hardcore. Others maintain it's a courageous effort to nudge music back in the direction of rationality, after its having been used for such a good chunk of time as a medium for expressing undiluted rage. As with all blisteringly loud amplified music, though, there's the ever-present irony of it being performed by people rebelling against established social values, while generally older, more sedate, traditional people labour in the background providing the electrical power that makes it possible. Just saying. – AndyFielding (talk) 06:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Modern post-hardcore
Should we add screaming vocals to instruments? As most (if not all) modern post-hardcore bands have screaming. Some of these bands include, The Amity Affliction, Silverstein, Alexisonfire, The Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, We Are the Ocean, etc... The list goes on. —  ıʇɐʞǝɐdʌɐиƭɐqǝoɟʎouɹqoɐʇ   [ talk ] 22:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Adding 'screaming' contributes little to the development of the article. 'Vocals' is already listed as a instrument on the article and screaming is a vocal style. And to say 'modern' bands now scream is not necessarily true, Refused or At The Drive-in use screaming; maybe not in the way we know from bands like alexisonfire but it is still a screaming style. Jonjonjohny (talk) 23:59, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Mentions
The page doesnt mention Falling in Reverse, Escape the Fate, Pierce the Veil, Blessthefall or Sleeping With Sirens. As all are modern Post-hardcore bands and seem to be really "in" right now and do have massive popularity I think they should at least be mention on the page. 69.29.215.17 (talk) 23:04, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

On the recent edit war
While I've not been a part of it, Kid299, 50.247.163.181 and Binksternet have taken part in an edit war as to whether punk rock should be included as an influence. While I have not gone through every source, the specific source that all parties are pointing to, does not cite punk rock as being an influence, instead saying that it is a sub-genre of hardcore punk. Because of this, I'm starting this discussion to explain why I am on Kid2999's side, if Binksternet can not provide a source saying this then I will revert his last edit, however if he can, I will not. Issan Sumisu (talk) 08:51, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

 * This source says that "Younger bands flowered into post-hardcore after cutting their teeth in high school punk bands." This source says post-hardcore goes beyond hardcore's "rigid constraints... incorporating more creative outlets for punk rock energy." This source says that "The violence and nihilism that had become identified with punk rock" led Rites of Spring to redefine themselves as hardcore punk. The book The Bloomsbury Handbook of Religion and Popular Music says on page 244 that post-hardcore and metalcore are subgenres of punk. The All Music Guide says about alternative pop-rock that "during the '80s, alternative included everything from jangle pop, post-hardcore punk..." The same book says about Hüsker Dü's Candy Apple Grey album that "punks can mature without losing their edge", and that most of the album is "relatively staid post-hardcore punk". There's more than that but I have to run. Binksternet (talk) 13:20, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

 * I mean, none of those seem to be saying that punk rock as a genre is influential on post-hardcore, just that it is a style of the umbrella term of punk, which it obviously is because it is derived from hardcore punk. Those sources just don't seem to support the inclusion of punk rock as an influence, they're just saying that they're inherently influenced in the sense that hardcore itself is a punk genre. We don't have heavy metal down as an influence on every sub-genre of death metal like technical death metal or deathgrind Issan Sumisu (talk) 13:32, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Binksternet provided plenty of sources that say post-hardcore is influenced by punk rock. Also post-hardcore is listened as a subgenre on the punk rock article. Punk rock should be added. Bowling is life (talk) 12:51, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

 * None of the sources support that it is influenced by punk, they just support that it is a style of punk, which it is because hardcore punk is a style of punk. You just need to provide a source that actually says that punk rock influenced post-hardcore. Issan Sumisu (talk) 12:55, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * One of the sources Binksternet provided says post-hardcore goes beyond hardcore's "rigid constraints... incorporating more creative outlets for punk rock energy." In other words, post-hardcore bands incorporate punk rock energy. Bowling is life (talk) 13:15, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

 * Actually that one does say it, sorry I must have missed that. Issan Sumisu (talk) 13:20, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Should we add punk rock then? Bowling is life (talk) 14:20, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm still a little iffy on it, but there's a source, so yeah sure Issan Sumisu (talk) 14:37, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

"My Chemical Romanc " or "The Emo vs Post-Hardcore Debate"
The question is whether bands like MCR should really be in this article or if they are not rather "Emo". Surely, there is a lot of overlap between the two genres, but there is clear evidence that MCR is more Emo than Post-Harcore. In any case, I doubt that MCR should be in the top paragraph as an example for post-hardcore bands. Putting "The Used" there is even more absurd of course. Marc.1337 (talk) 20:32, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Removing Blackgaze from derivative forms
The source cited does not refer to blackgaze as a derivative of post-hardcore, and the genre itself is not heavily influenced enough by post-hardcore to be called a derivative form of it. Blackgaze is, as its name implies, a direct blend of both black metal and shoegaze. The Guardian article linked doesn't mention post-hardcore as anything other than a comparison to blackgaze's melodic rhythms, among other genres of rock. The article also only mentions a small handful of bands without delving into the history of blackgaze - it doesn't mention the subgenre's original source Alcest or its founder Neige at all - so it should not be considered a credible source of information linking the two musical genres. 70.79.59.95 (talk) 22:51, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

"Postcore" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Postcore. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 24 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  danny music editor  oops 15:50, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Post-hardcore


text:
Old State House (Connecticut)

The Old State House (completed 1796) in Hartford, Connecticut is generally believed to have been designed by noted American architect Charles Bulfinch as his first public building. The State House is currently managed by the Office of Legislative Management of the Connecticut General Assembly. The exterior building and the Senate have been restored to its original Federal style; the Representative's chamber is Victorian, and the halls and courtroom are Colonial Revival.

Description
The Hartford State House is, in appearance, very similar to the Town Hall of Liverpool, England, built in the mid-18th century and perhaps depicted in one of Bulfinch's architecture books. However, all materials came from the United States. Its first story is 20 feet high and constructed from Portland, Connecticut brownstone. The second and third stories are brick patterned in Flemish bond. The cornice is wooden. The State House has been modified somewhat since it was first built. As originally constructed, the building had neither balustrade or cupola, but the balustrade was added in the early 19th century for the protection of firemen, and the cupola was constructed in 1827 with its bell and John Stanwood's statue of Justice. An original (1796) stone spiral staircase behind the northern arch, designed by Asher Benjamin, led to the second and third floors; it no longer exists. In 1814, the Hartford Convention was held there. In 1839, the start of the Amistad trial was held there.

The building had been in danger of closing in 2008 due to financial constraints. State and Hartford officials have recently signed a 99-year lease placing Connecticut's Old State House under new management. The lease puts the city-owned historic building under the control of the state Office of Legislative Management.

It was declared a National Historic Landmark in 1960.

Exhibits focus on the history of Hartford and important events in Connecticut history. Visitors can also tour the original legislative rooms.

Joseph Steward Museum of Curiosities
The Museum of Natural and Other Curiosities is located on the third floor of the Old State House. The museum features a recreation of Joseph Steward's original 1798 collection of natural history displays and curiosities.

Haunted reputation
Over the years, several eyewitnesses (mostly staff members) have claimed to experience paranormal activity inside the building. In 2009, the Old State House was investigated by the investigators of TAPS on episode 524 of the Sci Fi Channel program Ghost Hunters. The episode aired on December 9, 2009. Following the investigation, TAPS announced that they captured audio of strange sounds inside the building. Something that sounded like a doorknob being opened was recorded in the Senate Room while no one was in it, and audio of what sounded like a woman sighing was captured in the Steward Museum room when no female team members were present in the building. Before giving a final verdict of "haunted or not", the team plans to head back to the Old State House for a more in depth investigation. So until then, this case remains open.

title: Old State House (Connecticut)