text:
Talk:Old Turkic script

scripts
Why are Mongolian and Arabic script discussions on this page? There are articles about both already. Evertype 10:39, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * Most likely relicts from a rename or merge. E.g. an article Old turkic alphabets was merged into this page. So it's somewhat like an article "scripts used by turkic people before using latin script". Strange mix. Either the lemma or the content has to change. --Pjacobi 10:48, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * I removed it once, only to have it restored. So perhaps we need a discussion about what is appropriate for this article. kwami 17:35, 2005 July 25 (UTC)
 * THis article is about the Orkhon script, not about the Arabic script or the Mongolian script, and not about Turkic writing systems in general. Evertype 17:53, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Kul Tigin monument image
Another image that might pertain to this article is this one, which says it's an image of the Kul Tigin monument that has the Orkhon script in it. I can't figure out where in the article it should go, though. Image:Kultigin_monument.jpg --76.200.138.185 20:47, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Tone of Article and Sources
This article keeps going from being flippant in tone to glorifying. Perhaps a balance could be found. It would also be useful to start stating sources in the talk page. --Son of the Tundra 09:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Orkhon Script and Runic Script
The historical connection between The Orkhon Script and Runic Script is not known. The similarity is quite clearly there and cannot be dismissed simply by saying that both were cast in stone. Cuneiform was also cast in stone and bears no similarity to Runes. --Son of the Tundra 09:29, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Cuneiform was not cast in stone, it was pressed into clay with a stylus. Runiform scripts were not cast in stone either, they were carved. The Latin and Greek alphabets were runiform when carved in stone too: that's an artifact of the method of inscription. Runes are related to the Latin script, and Orkhon to the Sogdian, as far as we now know. The article mentioned that some letters were similar, but the claims were spurious. It gave the letter M as an example, but the letter M in Orkhon looks like a fish and nothing at all like runic M. So unless there is some source demonstrating similarities, yes we can dismiss it. kwami 18:20, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Why have you removed the see also section? Anyone researching this topic may also be interested in looking at those sections as well. Also, if you look at Old Hungarian script and runic alphabet, you will see that Orkhon and Old Hungarian are referred to as being related; and they are referred to as runiform. Why have you removed the link to http://www.turkicworld.org ? That site contains a huge amount of information on this subject and is a great place to research. --Son of the Tundra 10:05, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry! That must have been an editing error when I added my ref. I have a sticky 'shift' key, and sometimes select a block of text when I only mean to insert the cursor. Maybe I was looking at the hard copy and didn't notice the highlighting on my screen. kwami 18:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi Kwami, I'd be grateful if you could take a look at this article http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/index.htm and tell me what you think. It attempts to prove a connection between old Runic and Orkhon. I would certainly be very interested in reading your analysis of that paper and then perhaps discuss it with you. --Son of the Tundra 08:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry, not impressed. They take letters in Futhark and Orkhon that look superficially similar, then convert samples of written Norse into the alleged Orkhon equivalent, and see if they can make any sense of it in Turkic. That's like taking this sentence, matching the letters to their closest graphic equivalents in katakana, and trying to make sense out of it in Japanese, then claiming that proves English and Japanese share a common ancestry! There are hundreds if not thousands of crackpot decypherments like this out there. (The last debate I got in was the claim that the Micmac Indians wrote in Egyptian hieroglyphs; there were just such superficial similarities as we have here, and I ended up being called a racist because denying the connection meant I was denying the Micmac their civilization. A couple years ago in Togo I heard a lecture by someone claiming that the hieroglyphs could be read in Ewe, which proved that Togolese built the pyramids. Never mind the fact that the Ewe language didn't exist yet!)

 * The single biggest fallacy is assuming that letters must be related just because they look similar, even though you ignore their sound values. If you take handwriting variants over several centuries, you can make any script you want look like any other script. What would convince me is if you took an early Futhark k and early Orkhon k and they looked similar, then t from both and they looked similar, etc. Or else structural irregularities. (For example, both Greek and Armenian write the vowel /u/ with the letters . Just that detail indicates that there was likely some connection between the Greek and Armenian alphabets, though it doesn't prove one actually derives directly from the other.) I would consider anything else to be an "extraordinary" claim, and like Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Going by Occam's Razor, I expect that your author is seeing animals in the clouds, and believes they're real. kwami 09:22, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Kwami, You provide some very amusing anecdotes. I do see your point though. It does seem a bit silly to try and take this sentence, as you say, and match the letters to their closest graphic equivalents in some other script, and then try to make sense out of it. Just curious though, can’t one script be derived from another without taking the sounds, i.e. just taking the shapes? On another note, the article Old Hungarian script says that it is derived from Orkhon. Does that mean that the sounds and the shapes were taken from Orkhon? Does that also apply to other scripts, for example if one can read Arabic would that mean that one would also be able to read (but not necessarily understand) other languages that use the Arabic script?--Son of the Tundra 10:09, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, there are scripts like you describe. Take a look at the Cherokee alphabet, where an illiterate man used the Latin alphabet without understanding how it worked. For example, letters that look very much like 'CWY' are pronounced tsalagi ("Cherokee"). However, not only are the sounds different, but so is the structure of the script: it's a syllabary rather than an alphabet, because Sequoyah didn't understand the alphabetic principle. When illiterate people come up with their own writing systems, they're almost always syllabaries. And when they're literate, they almost always follow the values and structure of the model script. This has been the case for hundreds and hundreds of scripts. After all, they've learned that it is the correct way to write, and they don't want to be ignorant! When the sound values change, it's usually because of differences in the languages. Greek, for example, didn't have an /h/ or glottal stop, so when the Greeks adopted the Phoenician alphabet, they used the /h/ and glottal stop for the vowels A and E. But when the two languages had sounds in common, like /k, l, r, m, s/, the letters kept their sound values.

 * Unlike Runic, Orkhon is consonant-based, and tends to drop out vowels, so that sabımın "my word" was spelled, and ešid "listen" as , missing an entire syllable! (Vowels do tend to be written in final syllables.) This is similar to the Aramaic-derived scripts of SW Asia, but not very much like Runic. It implies that either Orkhon was a gradual development out of the Aramaic family, or else that whoever invented it was literate in one of those scripts, such as Sogdian. Likewise, Runic clearly comes from the Latin family. So a connection between them is improbable, and would require some good evidence to be convincing.

 * You're right, though, a script could be borrowed without paying any attention to sound values, like Cherokee. The question is, how would you ever prove it? In the case of Cherokee, Sequoyah immitated the little details of the Latin letters, such as the serifs and little bulbs at the ends of the lines, plus we have historical records, and we know that he invented his script in a sea of Latin-alphabet literacy. However, the little serifs etc. could have been a cultural influence after the script was invented. If Cherokee and Latin were only preserved in crudely written notes, from different continents and written centuries apart, it would be very difficult to show that they were related, or to decide whether Cherokee came from Latin, Cyrillic, or Hebrew, or from the Japanese kana syllabary.

 * As for Hungarian runes, we can't prove they're related to Orkhon. But a relationship looks promising: the Hungarians had strong Turkic cultural influence, so the opportunity was there, and they likely would have looked to the Turks for their ideas rather than, say, the Germans or Slavs. Also, many of the letters with similar sound values also looked similar, although there is so much variation that it's a bit of a guessing game. For example, one form of /s/ looked like an I in both scripts, /n/ like a reversed C, /i/ like a Γ, /d/ like an x or a +, etc. There's about as good a connection between Old Hungarian and Orkhon as there is between Orkhon and Sogdian - not a great match, but good enough to make a reasonable hypothesis. kwami 22:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

You might look at my article "The Mystery of the Szekely Runes: Provenence of a script" in the Occasional Papers of the Epigraphic Society, Vol. 19, p. 184-? if you can get your hands on it at your library. It summarizes the state of knowledge on the development of the Szekely/Hungarian "runes" at the time I wrote the article. Doc Rock 11:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I found an interesting links through "Omniglot": http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/FUTHP3E.HTM and http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/FUTHP4E.HTM

It is about relationship between turkic runes and oldest found runestones found in Sweden. I think that it's obvious enough that basis for Futhark alphabet was taken from Orkhon runes. This can be explained as cultural influence of turkic civilization during turkic migration circa 300-400 AD. Example of Cherokee alphabet shown by Kwami is good, but we must remember that the fact that norse and turkic symbols have different pronounciation DOES NOT mean that this two alphabets are completely unrelated. Another example is the script of now extinct Khitan (or Liao in chinese) people. Script for Khitan language is obviously derived from chinese Hanzi. It has same symbols. Now what we see? Some of the symbols really have same meaning as in Chinese ieroglyphs but some of the symbols changed their meaning, "mountain", for example, became "gold", "north" became "time", ieroglyph that could've mean "package" in chinese became number "3". Not to mention that this languages(chinese, khitan) were from absolutely different language families. Same thing is about Jurchen script that is also related to chinese. Let's take Chinese numerical symbol of 10.000, chinese pronounciation will be MAN,BAN, maybe WAN, in Jurchen it will be TUMAN, it is clear that word TUMAN has altaic origin since it is used in modern russian language and means "fog". Another example is the word dragon, in Jurchen it sounds as MUDUR, in written Jurchen it's actually 2 another chinese characters that have no relation to the chinese symbol for Dragon. The word Panther will sound as YARHA, while in Japanese pronounciation it will sound as HYOU or HOU (chinese-influenced).

I just want to say that no one have right to say that Norse and Turkic runes are unrelated or same before deep study of this subject. Many so called "historians" always try to deny clear facts, simply because they can't admit that fundamental doctrines of their views on history can be exposed and considered to be false. We must look at facts as they are and stop making theories and look sober on the things.
 * They are related, in that both descend from Phoenician. But that is a distant relation and their similarity is accidental; neither influenced the other directly. -- Evertype·✆ 09:23, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Z
Am I only one who finds that orkhon letter "Z" resembles roman & greek letter 'Z'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.200.186.130 (talk) 11:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sogdian
This alphabet is not a form of Sogdian alphabet. Here some letters and their origins:

→ B came from Balık (Fish in Turkish) → Y came from Yay (Bow in Turkish) → Oq or Ok came from Ok (Arrow in Turkish) → Ök came from Ök (Ram in old Turkish) but that letter is vertical version, horizontal version can be found other scripts —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.145.110.194 (talk • contribs)

 * 80.145.110.194, sorry, I do not have good sources to list the autochtonous origin of the Turkic Alphabets, and therefore I included only 4 theories of origin. Your example shows that the 5th theory, advocated by some prominent Türkologists, including, I think, Scherbak, also belongs to the description of theories of origin. Barefact 07:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issyk_kurgan#.22Golden_man.22 You can see this in the article: It is dated to the 4th or 3rd century BC (Hall 1997). As you can see, the same script was used there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdian_alphabet It was used throughout Central Asia, from the edge of Iran in the west, to China in the east, from approximately 100-1200 C.E.. So, it seems that your sources are out-of-date. --78.181.12.243 (talk) 06:11, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

import from Turkic alphabets
Redirecting and merging to willfully delete contents, including the outline of the origin, crotique of the initial ideas, and the rest, is wrong. Turkic alphabets include the Orkhon as its component, and there is no chance for a component to describe the whole. The article has to be restored and any objections discussed. Discussion on the Orkhon article would be outside of the scope of the article. Barefact 06:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You will note that I moved your material to Orkhon script, into the "origins" and "variants" section. If you are unhappy with the title "Orkhon script", we can discuss a move, at Talk:Orkhon script. I agree it could also reside at Orkhon-Yenisey script, for example. dab (𒁳) 09:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, I noted that. I also appreciated your addition of Amajolov article. I presume you did not create it to spill negatives on him, which are a separate issue. For the Turkic alphabets, I.Kyslasov is the main source, his palegraphy allowed a clear division of the raw mass of Turkic epigraphy into distinctly defined groups of alphabets. If Amajolov deserves an article, I.Kyslasov deserves nothing less. I will be glad to provide any help for it.

 * In light of I.Kyslasov classifications, universally cited (for such an obscure subject his book has exceptional visibility), the whole architecture devoted to the Turkic alphabets needs to be re-thought. Granted, the Orkhon script is most famous, and needs a special page. Turkic Euroasian and Turkic Asian subfamilies, which include a number of alphabets each, seem to merit a separate page each, even though they overlap geographically. This overlapping has historical roots, history can justify combining them in a single article. And finally, the overview of all families with the origin and spread of each sub-family was and is what I started under "Turkic alphabets", so unfortunately and untimely interrupted by your intervention. Taxonomically, these three layers present different perspectives, and they surely can't fit in the Orkhon script straightjacket. You can't write a good article starting with a relatively minor detail (even a famous minor detail) and ascending to the overall picture. Barefact 19:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I could accept a move to Old Turkic script if you insist. In any case, this is the article that discusses all variants of the script. If we're moving this, you might then consider starting a separate article on the Orkhon inscriptions in particular. dab (𒁳) 13:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I would favour a move to Old Turkic script. -- Evertype·✆ 21:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Is Y /j/ or /ʤ/?
NY is for sure /nʤ/, not /nj/! Look at russian version 24.218.13.86 (talk) 02:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Common letter?
The -NG [ŋ] letter looks very similar to elder futhark [n] (Nauþiz) rune. The only difference is that futhark version pierces through vertical line. Could it be a connection? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.200.186.108 (talk) 07:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Letter similarities chart
I made a little chart analyzing Elder Futhark and Talas-Orkhon-Yenisei script. Regards, Iliassh (talk)

dispute tag
It had said/says:"These alphabets are divided into four groups by Kyzlasov" and then Turanian group was mentioned. Such a language does not exist so this makes Kyzlasov unreliable. Same with " A. S. Amanzholov" which had already been discussed by dab(Amanzholov claims ancient near eastern languages are altaic). So lets just get some reliable scholars and remove these two. Overall article is good, but these two sources need to be removed or real scholars be mentioned. Thank you. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 14:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Firstly, if the overall article is good, you should put the tags to the relevant section. Secondly, factual accuracy and neutrality are two different issues. Regards. E104421 (talk) 14:09, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The overall article is good, but Kyzlasov's categorization is probably wrong since he forged a Turanian script(no such language or script). So I suggest that portion be removed.  I'll put it in the appropriate section, and remove Amanzholov, which does not meet WP:RS.  Overall again, the article is informative, but we should find someone else except Kyzlasov.  --Nepaheshgar (talk) 14:23, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Here check this: . We can rewrite that section based on it and I will remove the tag.  --Nepaheshgar (talk) 14:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that whole variant section is POV, since it was from Kyzlasov. Alans, Sogdians, Turanians (mythical people)  and etc. were POV.  I think the variant is the similar runiform script found in different places.  So my suggestion is that we remove that section, since the rest of the article is sound and informative.  --Nepaheshgar (talk) 14:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Similarities between Old Turkic and Etruscan alphabet
see etruscan at ;http://users.tpg.com.au/etr/etrusk/pix/lemnos.gif there are many same characters between them. do you know any research about it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.174.9.35 (talk) 02:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There are similarities between the scripts, because they are ultimately both descended from Phoenician. But it is a mistake to simply look at two glyphs that look alike and conclude a relationship between those two letters. -- Evertype·✆ 09:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * turkic is not indo-european, like etruscan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.174.9.35 (talk) 10:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The Turkic languages are non-Indo-European. And the Etruscan language is non-Indo-European. But that is irrelevant: we are not talking about languages here, but writing systems. As it happens, Old Turkic, Old Italic, Greek, Cyrillic, Latin, Runic, Hebrew, Arabic, and all the Brahmic scripts of India and South Asia are all ultimately derived from scripts used by Semitic speakers. As I say, the similarities between Old Turkic and Old Italic are mostly surface similarities. Shape alone does not show relationship. Relationship can be shown, back via Phoenician. -- Evertype·✆ 12:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

but there are not so much similarities between the other childs of Phonecian, but only old turkic and etruscan has a huge similarities. and in the other hand turkic peoples never lived with europeans or semitics. maybe tocharians lived with turkic peoples but there are not any other know contact between those peope. and there is other important connection, see Asena the Turkic myth, see the similarities with Romulus and Remus--195.174.9.35 (talk) 10:28, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

 * OT and Etruscan don't look very similar to me at all, except for both being scratched onto rock. kwami (talk) 11:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

There are works regarding similarities and there are even perfect decipherments of Etruscan writing in Turkic made by philologist Chingiz Garasharly. http://ebooks.preslib.az/pdfbooks/enbooks/chingizgarasharli.pdf Ancalimonungol (talk) 03:40, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Intro needs explanation and citations
This part in the intro: This similarity is superficial, however.[1] All alphabetic scripts used for incision in hard surfaces show this tendency (see Old Italic alphabets for other examples).. This needs explanation and clarification. As it stands, the sentence All alphabetic scripts used for incision in hard surfaces show this tendency... is POV. The Rosetta stone is inscribed in stone and it does not look runic. The existing citation does not help explain anything, i.e. does not provide reasons from the sources. Also, some sources do suggest that the Turkic script was independently derived and that should be stated. WillMall (talk) 15:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Origins
old Turkic did not come from Soghdian, they are two totally different langauges originating from different areas. one is Iranian, one is Turkish —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.220.114.108 (talk) 05:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Hi. I've restored the changes you made regarding the classification of this script. I've also restored some older paragraphs from the origins section which appeared to have been removed at some point. It's important to understand that the origin of a writing system is not the same as the origin of the language that uses it. For example, Vietnamese is written nowadays with a Latin script, like English, but clearly Vietnamese and English are not related. As far as I know there is no evidence for an independent origin of the Old Turkic script. Arzchena (talk) 14:16, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually there is no evidence for a certain origin for most of the alphabets in the word and Old Turkic Alphabet is one of them. There are new promising theories about the writing system being invented by Turks themselves but they are not published at the moment. Ancalimonungol (talk) 03:43, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Inappropriate edits by user Got Milked
Could someone please revert the recent inappropriate edits by User:Got Milked which have introduced into the article a comment I made in an edit summary, and which confuses my Wikipedia persona with my real life persona. As one of the co-authors of the Old Turkic encoding proposal I have deliberately avoided making any significant contributions to this article, and have only made a total of 3 edits (all reversions), so in no way could I be considered an "important contributor to this article". To avoid any further misunderstanding I will not make any further edits to this page, however minor. BabelStone (talk) 13:18, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Unicode
i can't see the unicode characters in "Unicode" section. tried both firefox and ie. the encoding is UTF-8. i think there are other people who can't see the chracters, either. i know that's not a help page but i thought it is the right place since the problem may cause only when it's the Old Turkic script. What should i do?--78.163.192.221 (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Use a font that supports Old Turkic. -- Evertype·✆ 11:21, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Writing Systems assessment
I have assessed this article as importance=Mid. Due to the paucity of extant Old Turkic inscriptions/manuscripts and the lack of a modern or historically crucial descendent script. Members of WikiProject Writing Systems may revise this assessment but should list their reasoning in response to this comment. Vanisaac (talk) 05:42, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

A.S. Amanjolov
This scholar looks reputable, but should we be using him for statements of fact? Is it clear that he represents the mainstream opinion for this material? Dougweller (talk) 06:18, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The second of the four paragraphs sounds fairly mainstream. I have not seen Amajolov's book, so it is hard to evaluate how much of a leading scholar in the field he is just by the title. -- Evertype·✆ 09:39, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The number of living experts on the subject can be counted on fingers of one hand, and among them only two, I.Kyzlasov and A.Amanjolov are recognized paleographers. A.Amanjolov is the "up-to day" interpretation, the others are about 100 years old, and their suggestions were based on very limited material of 1900s, which grew exponentially since then. Very few references are available, among the latest are: Christopher P. Atwood, 2006, Mongolian studies: Volume 27 The Mongolia Society, Incorporated, Research Center for Language and Semiotic Studies, Indiana University,, p. 121, and Gary Seaman, 1992, Foundations of empire: archaeology and art of the Eurasian Steppes, Ethnographics Press, Center for Visual Anthropology, University of Southern California, ISBN-13: 9780910980975. But that is besides the point, the deletion of good faith referenced material should be based on authoritatative opposing reference or demonstrated clear misinterpretation of the cited reference, otherwise it is pure POV. BTW, Greek alphabet is a development of Semitic alphabet, it is a common knowledge. Barefact (talk) 08:37, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm well aware of the Semitic language family; see Roadmapping early Semitic scripts. When we encoded Old Turkic we used the following:

 * Erdal, Marcel. 2004. A grammar of Old Turkic. Leiden & Boston: Brill.
 * Faulmann, Carl. 1990 (1880). ''Das Buch der Schrift. Frankfurt am Main: Eichborn. ISBN 3-8218-1720-8
 * Kara, György. 1996. “Aramaic scripts for Altaic languages”, in Peter T. Daniels and William Bright, eds. The world’s writing systems. New York; Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-507993-0
 * Róna-Tas, A. 1991. An introduction to Turkology. Szeged.
 * Scharlipp, Wolfgang Ekkehard. 2000. Eski Türk run yazıtlarına giris ̧: ders kitabı = An introduction to the Old Turkish Runic inscriptions: A textbook in English and Turkish. Engelschoff: Auf dem Ruffel. ISBN 3-933847-00-X
 * Tekin, Talât. [1968]. A grammar of Orkhon Turkic. Bloomington: Indiana University.
 * von Gabain, A. 1941. Alttürkische Grammatik mit Bibliographie, Lesestücken und Wörterverzeichnis, auch Neutürkisch. Mit vier Schrifttafeln und sieben Schriftproben. (Porta Linguarum Orientalium; 23) Leipzig: Otto Harrassowitz.
 * Малов, С.Е. 1951, Памятники Древнитюркской Письменности, Москва & Ленинград.

Certainly Marcel Erdal is a modern expert; he corresponded with us as we did our work. -- Evertype·✆ 11:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * My BTW note referred to the 9 January 2012 rv with funny comment "apparent nonsense: close link to both Greek & S.Semitic?", not to the encoding, where I can only admire the efforts. On encoding I noticed some missing letters, and can pass comments to you, it is fortunate that you raised the topic, but the encoding subject is outside of the Amanjolov's discussion, which addresses proper justification for removing of referenced material. On the subject, I would like to clarify that Amanjolov was involved in studies of inscriptions S-W of the Enisei-Orkhon script zone, which predates the Enisei-Orkhon script by at least few centuries, which allowed him to paleographically track development of individual graphemes, analyzed in his monograph. Barefact (talk) 03:46, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I removed some material again. It appears to claim that OT derives from Egyptian hieroglyphs. If this means just through Aramaic, then we can just say from Aramaic, as we do with other scripts. This may all be correct, but I thought it needed discussion here:

 * ''However, the paleographic analysis of the Ancient Türkic runes, in turn, leads to a conclusion about very early forming date for the Türkic runic alphabet in Southern Siberia and Jeti-Su, not later than the middle of the 1st millennium BC. This alphabet reveals a close genetic linkage, first, with the early types of the ancient Greek alphabet (especially with Anatolian and Italic), and secondly, with the Northern Semitic-Phoenician (including the early Aramean) and S.Semitic alphabets.

In other words, it's been linked with every alphabet in the world, which means it's been linked with none. This is an empty claim: all it says is that it's an alphabet.

 * ''At the same time, the Türkic runic alphabet represents a very rich and expressly developed independently graphic system. The close genetic linkage of the Türkic runic characters with the early Semitic, ancient Greek, Italic and Anatolian letters demonstrate that the Türkic runic alphabet underwent a long path of development, and apparently it ascends to the most ancient common source of alphabetic writing. A conjectured primary source was an original logographic (ideographic) or alphabetic script of the 3rd - 2nd millennia BC.

Almost all alphabets trace back to that common source, but we don't bother to say that the English alphabet "ascends to the most ancient common source of alphabetic writing". Again, an apparently impressive but actually empty statement. See WP:Peacock.

 * ''It is also very probable that some prototypes of Ancient Türkic runes descend from primeval Türkic graphic logograms, the signs for the words. For a solution of the problem of the Türkic runic alphabet origin, a great importance acquires the hypothesis about a most ancient genetic unity of Türkic languages with the Indo-European languages.

AFAIK, there were no primeval Turkic logograms. This appears to be fiction.

 * ''Regarding the dot techniques of the Turkish Runes, the most ancient Kazakhstan rock symbols in the Late Bronze and Early Iron epochs, engraved with dot techniques, in some instances border on the initial graphics of some Ancient Türkic runes.

Meaning what, exactly? That people used the same rocks for graffiti as they did for petroglyphs? So what?

So, I deleted these paragraphs as being either empty fluff or seeming nonsense. — kwami (talk) 18:26, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Dear kwami, the problem was with the deletion of the referenced material without any discussion, justified by your POV. Discussion allows you to formulate your specific objections, and appraise their validity.
 * in respect to your interpretation "linked with every alphabet in the world", this is not what the referenced material states, the key is "middle of the 1st millennium BC", it is the time when Phoenician alphabet was spreading in the Mediterranean, and Greek and early Aramean are its derivatives. The citation is very specific, and does not need imagined allegations to invalidate it. There is nothing about "linked with every alphabet in the world" in the referenced material, and if you know of a publication that came up with that allegation, you should have cited it, otherwise it your personal unjustified opinion. Please use specific published counterarguments to justify the deletion. Barefact (talk) 18:13, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea whether Amanjolov is a serious scholar. If he is, he has being done a great injustice by being represented online by a cranky nationalist running a private website at onlinehome.us, which is in turn used to spam Wikipedia with Türkic nonsense. I have a good mind to request that s155239215.onlinehome.us is blacklisted site-wide once and for all. Since the s155239215.onlinehome.us ("TürkicWorld") website is all about touting Amanjolov, the impression is created that Amanjolov is somehow behind this website, or associated with it. But this need not be the case. We need to distinguish between Amanjolov, who may or may not be a quotable scholar, and the onlinehome.us troll (TürkicWorld) who has plagued Wikipedia for years. The TürkicWorld troll can be easily spotted by their bizarre insistence of spelling the name Turkic as Türkic in English. Thankfully, this makes it rather easy to pinpoint their material and remove it on sight. Whatever the merits of Amanjolov, the English name for this ethnolinguistic group is Turkic, and not Türkic. --dab (𒁳) 21:04, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Amanjolov himself boasts about the fact that no other scholar has taken up his "decipherment", which to him confirms that he is right as nobody has disproven him, but what that really means is that no other scholar deems him worthy of notice. If anybody agreed with him, they would mention and quote him. But the silence marks him as fringe. Science is based on peer review: no peer review, no recognition, no scholarly status. This is what our policy WP:PROFRINGE is also in line with. Else we'd have to include any nutty theory ever uttered. Therefore, I have removed Amanjolov here and have the right to remove him everywhere on Wikipedia. He's a typical nationalist crackpot, even if he may have a degree. That alone doesn't give him academic standing and doesn't except his work from the necessity of peer review. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:05, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Sogdian Claim
I understand that Semitists want to originate everything in Semits. They even claimed that Turks are descendants of Japheth.

There is another party which tries to "erase" Turkish history in the interest of Persian "history"!

There is this third group of Chinese ones emerging as a new branch of "There is no Turk! There was no Turkish!" argument.

In this article, I found all these Anti-Turkist arguments.

Old Turkish alphabet being descandant of Persian(!) ones which in turn are Semitic(!). The Chinese argument is represented as the alternative one. It is like "If you don't like to be shot by gun we have knife!"

And this fiction is represented as "mainstream" ! (appearantly Turkish scholars are not counted, they don't exist)

Why there is no argument from Turkish scholars? Isn't this article about Turks? Where are Turks in this article? Turks don't have a say on themselves according to Wikipedia administrators who constantly remove sourced content?

If it is Sogdian why don't you put Turkish and Sogdian alphabets in a two rows table? Let readers decide who is the liar.

I don't expect Wikipedia administrators (who are notoriously Aryanist or Semitist) to let authors put the statements of Turkish scholars on this article. Just put that da*n table.

Let readers see Sogdian and Turkish letters one under the other. LEt them compare those alphabets.

Just put the table.--98.196.232.128 (talk) 06:57, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm also hate Aryanist and Semitist, im kyrgyz. --158.181.10.150 (talk) 09:20, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

 * I have compared Old Sogdian and Orkhon side by side. The affinities are pretty obvious. If you can't see it, it's probably because you don't want to, or maybe you're looking at cursive Sogdian (look at the /a/ characters for example - they're identical). In any event, Chinese observers of the time even remarked on their similarity. It's obviously modified quite a bit, but relative to most script adaptations between disparate languages like Sogdian and Old Turkic, it's nothing shocking. Compare the adaptation of Kharosthi from Aramaic. Tarchon (talk) 20:05, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

German works on Old Turkic inscriptions
Der türkische Text der bilinguelen Inschriften der Mongolei: Erstes Heft: Die Schrift ist eine ... (1900)

https://archive.org/details/dertrkischetext00albegoog

Inscriptions de l'Orkhon déchiffrées (1896)

https://archive.org/details/inscriptionsdel00thomgoog

Über die köktürkische Inschrift auf der Südseite des Kül Takin-Denkmals (1896)

https://archive.org/details/berdiekktr00banguoft

Wörterverzeichniss zu den Inscriptions de l'Iénisseï (1892)

https://archive.org/details/wrterverzeichni00donngoog

Rajmaan (talk) 03:58, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Inscriptions de l'Orkhon : vol.1

http://dsr.nii.ac.jp/toyobunko/La-4/V-1/

Inscriptions de l'Orkhon : vol.1

http://dsr.nii.ac.jp/toyobunko/La-4/V-1/

Ottoman Turkish work

Orhun abideleri

https://archive.org/details/orhunabideleri00yaziuoft

History of Turks

https://archive.org/details/trktrh00yazi

History of Ottomans

https://archive.org/details/osmnltrh01yazi

https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Yaziksiz%2C+Necib+%27Asim%2C+1861-1935%22

Similarities between Old Turkic and Scandinavian alphabet
I'm an absolute layman regarding runic alphabet. By coincidence, I found an interesting website that claims a very amazing  assumption. According to the author, some Skandinavian stones can be read with the orchun alphabet with a sensefull content,  even with a referance to the picture on the stone. That seems far-fetched to me, so I've been looking at tis article for more information on the topic. Therefore, my question to the professional world is, can this be true or is author making a joke ?

Here is the page with the thesis and the respective transcriptions: http://www.antalyaonline.net/futhark/index.htm

Thanks for your feedback on this !!

Similarities between Old Turkic and Scandinavian alphabet
I'm an absolute layman regarding runic alphabet. By coincidence, I found an interesting website that claims a very amazing  assumption. According to the author, some Skandinavian stones can be read with the orchun alphabet with a sensefull content,  even with a referance to the picture on the stone. That seems far-fetched to me, so I've been looking at tis article for more information on the topic. Therefore, my question to the professional world is, can this be true or is author making a joke ?

Here is the page with the thesis and the respective transcriptions: http://www.antalyaonline.net/futhark/index.htm

Thanks for your feedback on this !! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.128.80.107 (talk) 23:19, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Futhark and Orchon Runes
The first Futhark Runes is found around 70 BC in German coast. The first Orchon Runes is found after 450 AD in Asia. The german runes are older. Fact is that the gotic people have cooperated from 375 AD to 450 AD with the huns. In this time came it to the culture chance between Gotes and Huns. Attila had a gotic grandma and a gotic woman. He was a man with half east germanic roots. The Orchon runes is a turk script, but after the sample from germanic runes. It is important to understand, the orchon runes are in old turk language, not a 1:1 copy of german runes. It is self created by the huns from Uldin and Attila, what is inspired from the germanic runes and her forms. You can not directly translate from Germanic Runes in Turk Runes.

The Germanic runes is a idea from the Hallstatt time (HA C). The hallstatt culture have connect to the norican tribe, a hallstatt-venetian-culture-remix. So came the venetian-etruscian Letters to the Germans as Runes, and the german runes to the Orchon River. The Magyar, Bolgar and Turk mythology have the same source, and the Orchon runes is the early form of magyar, oldturkic runes and influence of the old church slavic letters. The Gotic-Hunnic time is the connect between europe and asia. I hope now is clear the mysterium of connect between germanic and orchon Runes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.218.217.170 (talk) 13:32, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

 * This isn't a discussion board. All of that would be interesting on a web forum, but here we want sources that meet WP:RS if you want to change the article. Dougweller (talk) 16:29, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

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Clarification on which quality is inherent with the "normal" consonants
Does any of the sources crlarify what vowels follow consonants not from the Synharmonic sets? If yes could someone add that please? --LonleyGhost (talk) 18:51, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

shouldn't 𐰎 be transliterated as ɣ?
tekin 1968, nadeljaev 1969, and thomsen 1893 all say the transliteration should be ɣ Prof. Pedantic (talk) 15:58, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Elaborate? Beshogur (talk) 16:54, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * File:Thomsen Orkhon table 1893.png - Wikimedia Commons says it should be transcribed as ɣ
 * dts.pdf (altaica.ru) (nadeljaev 1969) says that it should be transcribed as ɣ
 * Tekin_A Grammar of Orkhon Turkic 1968.pdf (altaica.ru) (tekin 1968) says that it should be transcribed as ɣ Prof. Pedantic (talk) 17:20, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * It's unclear what you're asking. What do you want to be changed in the article? Beshogur (talk) 17:40, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * the table of characters? Prof. Pedantic (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The IPA uses that character. Beshogur (talk) 19:10, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * i'm saying the transcription should be that. Prof. Pedantic (talk) 03:51, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Association with the Turkic language
There is a connection in some of the letters in the script in terms of their shape, sound and the object (lexical meaning) they refer to. These connections can only be explained via Turkic languages:

Letter          Lex. Meaning              Shape eb                   house                       a tent at (ta?) throw (mountain?)   Showing upwards El                   hand           a hand with 2 fingers? Er               man        a two-armed upright being (E?)m            em : suck             a breast (A?)ch           ach : open              an angle ich               inside      3 lines, one in the middle Ek                sow         a farming tool? Ant        traditional oath drink           a filled cup Alt; sub; 2 high points and a valley in between Ay or yay; moon or arch; half-moon or an arch Ok ( ⬇)    arrow     an arrow (E?)ng; eng : most?; a person pointing above?
 * Sounds are the consonants.

Due to the examples above, I claim that the script can't have, at least fully, come from another preceding script such as Sogdian because some of the letters above must have been created by Turkic speaking people. I don't object that it may have been created after a Sogdian fashion but it cannot have been fully descended from it or another script. 144.122.130.181 (talk) 11:20, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Orientalist false sogdian claim.
The sogdian claim is written with bad intentions. The sogdian alphabet never has influenced the runic alphabet of Turks. It influenced the Uyghur alphabet. The first known alphabet of Turks are the runic alphabet and the second known is the Uygur alphabet.

The writing systems of both languages are different. This is also not a new info.

The oldest scripts are not anymore the Orkhun runes but the legacy of İlterish, probably 7th century.it is the oldest Turk runes and it was written in two languages. Turk Runes and also in Sogdian alphabet. Which means the turk runes were already existing with the sogdian alphabet.

Main difference of Sogdian is, every letter has 3 shapes while the Turk runes doesn't even involve vowels and every letter has one shape. Besides the Turk runes have punctuation rule to seperate different words, which indicates a grammatical structure extremely different than sogdian.

In a nutshell, no, runes are not a variation of sogdian but the uyghur alphabet. 2A04:4540:6518:5200:B532:C8B:A670:DAC8 (talk) 18:55, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Old Turkic script


text:
International Research Center for Japanese Studies

The International Research Center for Japanese Studies (国際日本文化研究センター), or Nichibunken (日文研), is an inter-university research institute in Kyoto. Along with the National Institute of Japanese Literature, the National Museum of Japanese History, and the National Museum of Ethnology, it is one of the National Institutes for the Humanities. The center is devoted to research related to Japanese culture.

History
The official origins of the institute are traced to an early study carried out by the Japanese Ministry of Education, Science, and Culture in 1982 on "methods of comprehensive research on Japanese culture". After surveying the field of Japanese studies for several years, the ministry, under the administration of Prime Minister Nakasone Yasuhiro, established the International Research Center for Japanese Studies in 1987 in Kyoto with the prominent philosopher Umehara Takeshi as its first Director-General. Prominent Kyoto academics Umesao Nobuo and Kuwabara Takeo also played key roles in the founding of the center.

In 1990 the center moved to its current site in Oeyama-chō, Nishikyō-ku. In 1995 Kawai Hayao, a Jungian analyst of Japanese psychology and religion, was inaugurated as the second director-general of Nichibunken. In 2001, Yamaori Tetsuo, professor of Japanese religion and folklore, became the center's third director-general. The current director-general, Katakura Motoko, was inaugurated in 2005. She is Nichibunken's first female director-general and, as a cultural-anthropologist who specializes in Middle-Eastern Studies, she is also the center's first director-general who is not a Japan specialist.

Criticisms
Nichibunken was established against the backdrop of an increasing trade surplus with the United States in the 1980s. The cultural-anthropologist Ueno Chizuko sharply criticized the center as a calculated attempt at national branding. Ueno claimed that, despite the center's academic pretensions, the real purpose of Nichibunken was to improve the image of Japan in order to prevent criticism of Japanese trading practices and improve sales of Japanese goods abroad. Ian Buruma caused considerable outrage at the time for arguing in influential newspapers abroad that the establishment of the center was part of a project designed to revamp the kind of nationalist ideology present in pre-war Japan.

The Nichibunken Library
A library of Japanese Studies is attached to the center. The collection primarily consists of books and bibliographic materials pertinent to the academic study of Japan. As of 2014, the library contains approximately 400,000 volumes of books in Japanese and 97,000 volumes in other languages. It also houses approximately 4,400 Japanese periodicals and about 1,000 foreign language periodicals. The library has also a significant storage of media materials in form of records, video and other digital forms.

Publications
Nichibunken publishes two periodicals in the field of Japanese studies: Japan Review in English and Nihon Kenkyū (in Japanese). Japan Review is a peer-reviewed journal available on JSTOR and on the Nichibunken website. Japan Review, which is published annually, accepts outstanding essays on Japanese culture from scholars across the globe, as well as research notes. It carries reviews of important books on Japanese studies. Japan Review also publishes Special Issues, the first of which was published in 2013 as "Shunga: Sex and Humor in Japanese Art and Literature." The bi-annual Nihon Kenkyū is also peer reviewed and invites contributions from scholars everywhere.

Databases
The following databases are accessible from the Nichibunken webpage. Some of the databases require you to register and obtain a password.

This is a database of images of all rare books in Nichibunken's collection. It primarily consists of books treating Japan in Western languages published before the opening of the country to foreign commerce in the 1850s. In addition to graphic images of all pages of these rare books, the database contains searchable text with bibliographic information, tables of contents of the books, and captions of the illustrations in the books.
 * Rare Books

This online catalogue is a database of the bibliographical details of pre-1900 European books housed in Nichibunken's library which contain references to Japan. A total of 1,057 items are listed here
 * Catalogue of the pre-1900 printed books on Japan in European languages housed in the library of Nichibunken

Nichibunken's collection of 51,805 photographs, illustrations, and other visual images of Japan or Japan-related subjects from around the world. Users must register with Nichibunken in order to view the photos in this database.
 * Foreign Images of Japan

5,431 hand-colored photographs of Japan and accompanying text dating from the end of the Edo Period through the beginning of the Meiji Period. This database also requires users to register with Nichibunken.
 * Early Photographs

Images and textual information on Japanese art in foreign collections. The collection includes paintings, prints, ceramics, and lacquerware. Registration required.
 * Japanese Art in Overseas Collections

The Heian jinbutsushi is a Who's Who of Kyoto in the Edo period. It brings together information on literati and connoisseurs of various arts from all parts of the city and its environs. The first edition appeared in 1768 and the ninth and last edition in 1867. Between those dates, revised and expanded editions of the directory were published approximately once a decade, in 1775, 1783, 1813, 1822, 1830, 1838, and 1852. This database is constructed on the basis of original works that are all in Nichibunken's collection.
 * Heian jinbutsushi Information

The Heian jinbutsushi tanzakuchō is a collection of rectangular cards (tanzaku) on which poems were written by persons whose names appear in the Heian jinbutsushi. The originals are holograph brush-written poems. This database is constructed on the basis of tanzaku that are all in Nichibunken's collection. For some poems in the database (those originally written in Chinese, or kanshi), annotated English translations are included.
 * Heian jinbutsushi tanzaku Information

The SODA Collection, originally the collection of the medical historian Soda Hajime, contains books and prints related to the history of medicine. The major portion of digitized resources here is pictorial.
 * SODA Collection: Pictorial and Miscellaneous Materials,Rare Books

The Miyako nenjū gyōji gajō is a two-volume album of hand painted pictures on silk by Nakajima Sōyō. It depicts the annual festivals and customs of Kyoto at the beginning of the Showa period. These paintings are accompanied by explanatory texts written by the folklorist and Kyoto scholar Ema Tsutomu.
 * Miyako nenjū gyōji gajō

This is a collection of historical map images. It is not possible to zoom into these maps unless you are connected to the Nichibunken Intranet.
 * Space in Historical Perspective

The Zuroku Bei-Ō kairan jikki (translated as “The illustrated true account of the observations of the ambassadors plenipotentiary of America and Europe”) is a collection of illustrations and descriptive passages related to the Iwakura Mission. It was published in 1878.
 * Zuroku Bei-Ō kairan jikki

This contains the digitized full text and prints of the Kinsei kijinden, a collection of biographies of eccentrics from the Edo period.
 * Kinsei kijinden

This contains digitized images of Edo-era and Meiji-era guidebooks to historic sites in Kyoto.
 * Illustrations of Historic Places in Kyoto

This database contains bibliographic information related to folklore research in Japan.
 * Folk tale Data of Strange Phenomena and Yōkai

A database of 221 color photographic images of historical maps from the Nagasaki Municipal Museum's collection. Registration is required.
 * Old Maps of Nagasaki

A database of illustrations from the Kannon reigenki, a collection of legends pertaining to the Kannon Bodhisattva.
 * Mysterious Stories of Kannon Bodhisattva in Ukiyoe

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kill -9 -1

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was redirect to Kill (Unix). Sjakkalle (Check!)  11:17, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Kill -9 -1
Keyboard shortcut? Console command? I'm not familiar with tricks for this OS, but either way we're not a user manual for it. GarrettTalk 10:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Yeah, WP:NOT per Garrett (not to mention, it's a really bad idea to use " " under Unix or Unix-like systems (e.g. Linux)). -Harmil 11:46, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Aside from the fact that the one sentence in the article is untrue (what flavour of  is being used and whether one is the superuser are two important factors), this is an exceedingly poor title for an article.  (It's the   command with two arguments.)  The title isn't even necessarily itself correct, as 9 is not necessarily the number of the   signal.  Nothing to merge anywhere, and a title that is inherently misleading.  At best, this is Redirect to kill (Unix) simply to prevent an article like this growing again. Uncle G 12:23:37, 2005-07-25 (UTC)
 * Comment: SIGKILL might not necessarily be 9, but I can't think of a *nix still in wide use that doesn't define it as such. I'm curious, can you site an example?  -- Plutor 16:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect as per Uncle G.   — J I P | Talk 12:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to kill (Unix) --malathion talk 13:06, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect, agreed james gibbon  14:41, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. No one's going to search for this, so a redirect is unnecessary.  -- Plutor 16:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, no redirect. -Splash 17:57, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as per Plutor. …Markaci 2005-07-25 T 23:34:35 Z
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Alexander Dennis Enviro300

The Alexander Dennis Enviro300 (previously known as the TransBus Enviro300) is a light-weight full-size single-decker bus that was built by Alexander Dennis and its predecessor TransBus International between 2001 and 2015. The design was the first of the new Enviro range of buses from TransBus and also the first bus to be built as an integral bus by TransBus.

The Enviro300 was introduced in order to fill a gap in the manufacturer's product range. At the beginning the Cummins ISBe220 5.9-litre Euro III engine was provided as standard, but for Euro IV and V, the engine was the 6.7-litre ISBe with 225 hp for Euro IV and 225 or 250 hp for Euro V. There was a choice of 3 gearboxes: ZF Ecomat (originally 5HP502C, then 6HP504C), Allison T280R and Voith DIWA 854.5 (originally DIWA854.3E). The second generation Enviro300, with front end redesigned to match the Enviro200 and Enviro400, was launched in 2007.

Production of the Enviro300 ceased in 2015 with the introduction of a long-wheelbase Enviro200 MMC.

First generation (2001–2008)
Developed from the Alexander ALX300 body, the TransBus Enviro300 was launched in 2001 by TransBus International, becoming the first member of the Enviro range; with the collapse of TransBus in 2004, successors Alexander Dennis took over production and rebranded the Enviro300 as the Alexander Dennis Enviro300. In 2005, a school bus version was launched.

A common design was used primarily that the bus has a single-curvature windscreen with a peaked roof dome and a separately mounted destination sign. The bus was developed to compete with the European-built heavy-weight single-decker buses sold in the United Kingdom, the most notable being Volvo. Many full-size (12m or more) single-decker buses are primarily designed for use on the continent and to carry a large number of standing passengers which is commonplace on the continent, but the Enviro300 was designed solely for the UK market where large numbers of standing passengers are not often carried. TransBus therefore believed that operators could make significant fuel savings by operating light-weight buses and produced a vehicle which is claimed to be lighter than its continental rivals but offer more seating capacity.

The Enviro300 had not sold as well as the manufacturer had hoped, though sales were not helped by the collapse of TransBus International in 2004. The first seven Enviro300s were delivered to Truronian for use on Eden Project shuttle services in 2002. First Midland Red were among the biggest customers for the original Enviro300, purchasing 25 new between 2003 and 2005. A smaller number of original Enviro300s were also sold to the Stagecoach Group, Cardiff Bus and Bus Éireann.

The Enviro300 chassis was also able to be fitted with bodywork by other manufacturers, with Courtney Coaches purchasing East Lancs Esteem bodied examples in 2006. This was the first time the Enviro300 chassis was constructed with bodywork by another manufacturer.

Second generation (2007–2015)
In late 2007 Alexander Dennis introduced a second generation version of Enviro300 which featured styling cues similar to the Enviro200 Dart and the Enviro400. It had a single-piece windscreen covering the destination display (no longer a peaked roof dome similar to the Marshall Capital and the MCV Stirling). In addition to being available as an integral bus, it was also available on MAN 18.240/18.250, Volvo B7RLE and Scania K230UB chassis. The second generation Enviro300 was far more successful sales wise than its predecessor, with Arriva, the FirstGroup and Stagecoach purchasing examples.

The Stagecoach Group standardised on the Enviro300 as its standard full-size single-decker from 2007 until the end of production in 2015, when it was replaced within the group by the full-size Enviro200 MMC. The group first ordered 100 Enviro300 bodied MAN 18.240s in 2007, with the first eight production Enviro300s entering service with Stagecoach in Perth to launch the Stagecoach Goldline bus service in October 2007. Further orders boosted the total number of MAN-chassised Enviro300s operated by Stagecoach Group companies to over 350. Integrally-constructed Enviro300s were distributed across all UK bus operating subsidiaries of Stagecoach, with examples including large numbers delivered to Stagecoach North East for services in Stockton-on-Tees, Stagecoach East Scotland for services in Glenrothes, Kirkcaldy and Perth,  and 18 built to revised Stagecoach Gold specification for Stagecoach Merseyside & South Lancashire.

In January 2011, Stagecoach placed an order for 50 Scania K230UBs with Enviro300 bodies. These were followed by further 28 examples between 2012 and 2013, and 28 between 2014 and 2015, including two built to Gold specification for Stagecoach Cumbria & North Lancashire's X4/X5 service.

The FirstGroup were also another customer for the integral second generation Enviro300, albeit in comparatively smaller numbers to Stagecoach. Having ordered 142 integral Enviro300s in 2013, 89 of these were delivered to First Glasgow, 41 were delivered to First Greater Manchester for services in Oldham and Bolton, 23 were delivered to First Aberdeen, and ten were delivered to First Scotland East for a cross-border express service to Carlisle.

In mid-2008, Translink ordered 45 Enviro300 bodied Volvo B7RLEs for its Ulsterbus operation, these being the only Enviro300s to be bodied on this chassis. These were built to a rural specification featuring unique modifications such as narrower entrance doors, a separate wheelchair access door on the nearside, and 55 seatbelted seats arranged in a 2+3 layout.

Alternative fuels
A fleet of ten Enviro300s on MAN 18.240 chassis, which were converted to run on biodiesel produced from tallow and used cooking oil, were delivered to Stagecoach West Scotland for use in Kilmarnock in 2010, replacing older single-deck buses also fuelled by biodiesel.

In April 2013, Reading Buses took delivery of 20 natural gas-powered Enviro300SG buses based on the Scania K270UB chassis. These buses were jointly developed by Alexander Dennis and Scania, who had a demonstrator on loan to other operators from March 2013. Stagecoach North East purchased 40 Enviro300SG bodied Scania K270UBs in 2014 for use on services in Sunderland.

One Enviro300SG was converted by Alexander Dennis to run on biofuel produced from human waste in 2014. Capable of a range of 300 km at maximum capacity, the 'Bio-Bus' was initially loaned to the Bath Bus Company, requiring the installation of a temporary fuelling station at the Bristol Sewage Treatment Works in Avonmouth, before commencing on demonstration duties across the United Kingdom.

A hybrid electric derivative of the integral Enviro300 named the Enviro350H, equipped with BAE Systems hybrid technology used in the Alexander Dennis Enviro400H, was launched by Alexander Dennis in 2010, initially available with Tata Hispano bodywork exclusively for the Continental Europe export market.

2019 recall
On 10 May 2019, the UK Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) issued an instruction to all operators of both the Enviro200 and the Enviro300 to carry out additional safety checks of front and rear suspension components, following several safety concerns raised by the DVSA. A recall of Enviro200s and Enviro300s was announced by Alexander Dennis shortly after the announcement.

Alexander Dennis issued a service kit to operators of affected Enviro300s. Suspension modifications that came with the kit included the fitment of a polyurethane ring to the front suspension's catcher bracket, restricting movement of the front axle if front springs failed in service, while a bolt migration catcher bracket was fitted for the rear suspension to prevent the suspension's anchor bolt from migrating from the joint in the event of failure of the rear suspension.

title: Alexander Dennis Enviro300


text:
Mirror punishment

A mirror punishment is a penal form of poetic justice which reflects the nature or means of the crime in the means of (often physical) punishment as a form of retributive justice—the practice of "repaying" a wrongdoer "in kind".

It can be an application of the lex talionis (“an eye for an eye”), but is not always proportional justice, as a similar method may be used to produce a worse or milder effect than the crime it "retaliates".

The simplest method of mirror punishment is to enact the same action upon the criminal as the criminal perpetrated upon the victim. For example, thieves have the same amount of money taken from them as they stole, one who strikes another is struck in the same way, one who willfully causes another person's death is killed, and so on.

Often, however, a more esoteric method of mirror punishment is used, which implies punishing the part of the criminal's body used to commit the crime. Extreme examples include the amputation of the hands of a thief, as still permitted by Sharia law, or during the Middle Ages in Europe, or disabling the foot or leg of a runaway slave.

When the Halifax Gibbet was used as a method of execution, if the offender was to be executed for stealing an animal, a cord was fastened to the pin and tied to either the stolen animal or one of the same species, which was then driven off, withdrawing the pin and allowing the blade to drop.

Other examples include the punishment of adulterous women by the insertion of irritating substances into their vaginas (in the past hot pokers were sometimes used). A less extreme example is putting soap into a child's mouth for using inappropriate language (referred to in English as "washing out the mouth with soap").

Another method to accomplish "poetic justice" is to mirror the physical method of the crime, e.g., executing a murderer with his own weapon, burning arsonists alive, or in a more far-fetched example, boiling a counterfeiter alive (because bullion is boiled to be minted).

Popular culture
W. S. Gilbert's comic opera The Mikado contains a song satirizing mirror punishment:

 * The billiard-sharp who anyone catches
 * His doom’s extremely hard—
 * He’s made to dwell
 * In a dungeon cell
 * On a spot that’s always barred.
 * And there he plays extravagant matches
 * In fitless finger-stalls,
 * On a cloth untrue
 * With a twisted cue
 * And elliptical billiard balls.

The refrain line "to let the punishment fit the crime" has sometimes been quoted in the course of British political debates, though the concept predates Gilbert.

title: Mirror punishment


text:
Pınar Saka

Pınar Saka (born 5 November 1985) is a Turkish female track running athlete in the sprint discipline competing in the categories 100 m, 200 m and 400 m. She is the Turkish national record holder for 400 m. This time is the first time a Turkish woman ran under 52 seconds and also a qualifying mark for Olympics that will be held in London in 2012. She was chosen as Regional Athlete of the Year in Midwest both in 2008 and 2009. There were 8 regional athletes nominated for "National Athlete of the Year" award and in 2009, she receiveds that honor.

Saka was born in Üsküdar, Istanbul. She studied international business at the University of Nebraska at Omaha in the USA. The 163 cm tall athlete at 53 kg is a member of Enkaspor in Istanbul, where she is coached by Öznur Dursun.

Saka participated at the 2005 Mediterranean Games in Almería, Spain in the categories 4x100 m relay, 400 m and 4x400 m relay. She ran bronze medal in the 4x400 m relay in 3:40.75 with her teammates Birsen Bekgöz, Özge Gürler and Binnaz Uslu.

In 2011 Saka won the silver medal at the 26th Summer Universiade in Shenzhen together with a team consisting of Nagihan Karadere, Merve Aydın and Meliz Redif, with a time of 3.31.05.

Saka qualified for participation in the 400 m event at the 2012 Summer Olympics.

She is doing her MBA degree at Boğaziçi University in Istanbul.

Doping
Pınar Saka was in 2013 sanctioned as a result of abnormalities detected in her biological passport. She was disqualified from 18 June 2010 and got three years ineligibility ending 23 May 2015.

Achievements
Her personal best performances are:
 * 100 m 11.93 (2003)
 * 200 m 23.97 (2003)
 * 200 m Indoor 23.90
 * 400 m 51.53 (2011) NR
 * 400 m Indoor 52.99 (2011) NR

NR: Turkish national record

title: Pınar Saka


text:
Kakanui

The small town of Kakanui lies on the coast of Otago, in New Zealand, fourteen kilometres to the south of Oamaru. The Kakanui River and its estuary divide the township in two. The part of the settlement south of the river, also known as Kakanui South, formerly "Campbells Bay", was developed as a collection of cribs (holiday homes). A recent increase in the development of subdivisions has increased the density of dwellings within South Kakanui.

The Kakanui River reaches the sea near the town, and the low range known as the Kakanui Mountains stretches inland from south of Oamaru towards the Maniototo. Kai Tahu used to temporarily occupy Kakanui as they travelled north and south, as evidenced by the midden on the north side of the estuary.

The area around Kakanui has a reputation for its limestone formations, and produces many fossils. Quarrying formerly took place. The rich and fertile soil of the area around the river has physical properties which make it perfect for use in sports grounds, especially cricket pitches. Many of New Zealand's top cricket venues use Kakanui soil on their wicket blocks.

Beaches
Kakanui's main beach, south of the main headland, is known as Campbell's Bay. It provides the first surfable break and the first safe swimming beach (apart from Timaru's Caroline Bay) south of Banks Peninsula. The beach has a length of approximately two kilometres, and the southern end, known as All Day Bay, offers more shelter than the northern end, but with less surf. The sandy beach below the shingle spit north of the river mouth stretching toward Oamaru is safely swimmable. The beaches south of the main headland feature orange sand. The northern beach has white sand.

Horticulture
Kakanui's rich volcanic soil suits intensive horticulture. The township contains a number of glasshouses, primarily used for growing tomatoes, but also producing cucumbers and capsicums (bell peppers). Land surrounding the settlement (especially to the north towards the settlement of Totara) also features market gardens (often operated by Chinese New Zealanders) growing a wide range of vegetables. Kakanui has a particular reputation for its new-season potatoes, which sell throughout all New Zealand.

History
Kakanui (originally Kakaunui) was once a bustling port on the northern side of the river, with a hotel, blacksmith, meat works, and a post office. Kakanui's commerce declined after the construction of the railway inland (going through Maheno) and with the advent of the frozen-meat trade from 1882.

Demographics
Kakanui is described as a rural settlement by Statistics New Zealand, and covers 2.02 km2. It had an estimated population of as of  with a population density of  people per km2. It is part of the larger Maheno statistical area.

Kakanui had a population of 402 at the 2018 New Zealand census, an increase of 63 people (18.6%) since the 2013 census, and an increase of 27 people (7.2%) since the 2006 census. There were 177 households, comprising 198 males and 204 females, giving a sex ratio of 0.97 males per female, with 72 people (17.9%) aged under 15 years, 33 (8.2%) aged 15 to 29, 186 (46.3%) aged 30 to 64, and 102 (25.4%) aged 65 or older.

Ethnicities were 92.5% European/Pākehā, 9.0% Māori, 2.2% Pasifika, 1.5% Asian, and 3.0% other ethnicities. People may identify with more than one ethnicity.

Although some people chose not to answer the census's question about religious affiliation, 59.0% had no religion, 29.9% were Christian, 0.7% were Buddhist and 3.0% had other religions.

Of those at least 15 years old, 72 (21.8%) people had a bachelor's or higher degree, and 66 (20.0%) people had no formal qualifications. 33 people (10.0%) earned over $70,000 compared to 17.2% nationally. The employment status of those at least 15 was that 141 (42.7%) people were employed full-time, 54 (16.4%) were part-time, and 6 (1.8%) were unemployed.

Naming error
Kakanui has been shown on LINZ maps as "Taranui" since 1978. However, this name is not in use locally, nor is it evident on road signs. "Taranui" may be a naming error from early maps referring to a station farm of that name, located slightly inland from Kakanui.

title: Kakanui


text: Category:U.S. National Scenic Rivers

title: Category:U.S. National Scenic Rivers


text:
User talk:Lenaquin

Welcome
Welcome to Wikipedia, the greatest encyclopedia on Earth! You seem to be off to a good start. Hopefully you will soon join the vast army of Wikipediholics!

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Hope to see you around the Wiki! If you have any questions whatsoever, feel free to contact me on my talk page! ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 10:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Search problems
I seen your post on VP, and just figured I would answer here while welcoming. Most likely the servers are having a database replication lag, this happens from time to time. The search should default to a Google search, or there could be no article with the name you tried to search for. I hope that helps, if not, I'm sure someone will reply to your VP posts soon. ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 10:44, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Lenaquin


text:
User talk:Silverwhistle

Welcome
Welcome to Wikipedia, the greatest encyclopedia on Earth! You seem to be off to a good start. Hopefully you will soon join the vast army of Wikipediholics!

You may wish to review the welcome page, tutorial, and stylebook, as well as the avoiding common mistakes and Wikipedia is not pages.

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Hope to see you around the Wiki! If you have any questions whatsoever, feel free to contact me on my talk page! ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 10:45, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Montferrat
Hi Silverwhistle, you are probably more knowledgeable about this subject than I am, so hopefully you can help out: someone recently created Count of Montferrat, which is actually just the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica article, although we already have info about that at the Montferrat article, including the list of marquises. Should we just get rid of the new Count of Monferrat article and redirect it to Montferrat, or should we create a new Marquis of Montferrat article (since that was their title, not Count) and move all the medieval info and the list from the Montferrat article? Or some other suggestion? Adam Bishop 22:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Great! Adam Bishop 21:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Silverwhistle, I wanted to thank you for asking us of the Piedmontese wikipedia to translate the article. I started the translation | Corad dël monfrà, and wanted to inform you about it. --Bertulot 10:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Hulloo!
Obnoxiously heritage-obsessed American wannabe historian reporting! --Benn M. 01:29, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi! I've never used the Talk pages before! This looks fun!

Silverwhistle 00:34, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Crusade factions
Hi Silverwhistle, yes, I've noticed that as well - I learned about court/noble factions and this is always repeated in the older scholarship, but newer research like Hamilton talks about it much differently. I just came back from a crusade conference and it really shattered everything I thought I knew, including these factions. I'm not sure what to do with all these Wikipedia articles now, except perhaps start over from scratch... Adam Bishop 18:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

 * By the way, the court/noble division of the factions is still prominent in the Kingdom of Jerusalem article (since I, unfortunately, put it there). If you have time, could you fix it there too? I haven't had time to work on that lately, and you probably have a better understanding of the newer research than I do. Adam Bishop 07:19, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks! I wish I could help out with these articles more, but I suppose I should finish classes first (and I can't connect to Wikipedia at home at the moment anyway).  For images, click "upload file" in the toolbox on the left, and follow the steps from there. Adam Bishop 02:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

 * By the way, now that I have been thinking about how much I used to think I knew and how little I actually do know, I was reminded of something that always seemed incredible - Sibylla's re-marriage to Guy. Does anyone question the accuracy of that episode? Raymond et al. would have had to have been pretty stupid not to see that coming, or so it seems to me (but of course, in hindsight...) Adam Bishop 03:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I remembered something else I haven't had a chance to look into yet...maybe you will know. We currently have a stubby article at Battle of Jacob's Ford, but what is the proper name of this battle? Is it Jacob's Ford, or the Ford of Jacob's Daughters? Is it the same as the Battle of Marj Ayun? (I can't remember what "marj" means but I think Ayun is Jonah, obviously not Jacob...) Are they just different engagements in the same campaign? Where was Baldwin of Ibelin captured? Adam Bishop 05:59, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

William Longsword
Interesting. I merely figured that, as a figure predominant in what is today Italy, he was preponderantly the interest of Italian historians whose work would have been one of the sources for many English works on him and his family. So what's the Latin? Do you know? Srnec 18:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Baldwin IV
Hi. I think you think it was me who amended the article to add the bit about him being noseless, but it wasn't. I just made a very tiny spelling amendment. Interesting point, though. Deb 17:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Sibylla and Agnes
Hello! I wished to say I really do like the additonal information on these pages! And the image of the marriage of Sibylla is fantastic! I have a simular image i wish to add too, but have not yet added it.

In regards to the edits, Benard Hamilton, in his artical on the Queens of Jerusalem, states Baldwin of Ibelin was in Byzantium. But maybe he was referring to Eroll's account. I will review that portion of the book again. But the other editing, I removed the section that said that it was way to fantastic to beleive Eurol's account. But down the paragraph there is a sentance that says Raymond was indeed attepmpting to wed Sibylla to Baldwin. So there 'may be' a kernal of truth to the 'fantastic tale'. We don't honestly know how Sibylla may have felt towards Guy. She might just have easily been his prisioner in 1184 as his accomplice. Clearly I kept the spirit of your additions.Drachenfyre 09:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * by the by, hehe, why are the de Montferret's your 'favorite mideival family'Drachenfyre 09:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Joscius
Hey Silverwhistle, I just wrote Joscius, Archbishop of Tyre...I don't know if you have easier access to the Third Crusade sources than I do, but I'm sure there is more information in them if you feel like expanding it (my sources are currently limited to what I can find strewn about the floor of my room!). Adam Bishop 03:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Henry (VII)
Hey, that business of the leprosy is pretty cool. It certainly adds a new element to his story, particularly a motivation for his suicide. Choess 20:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Hard to say. The natural contumacity of the Hohenstaufen may have been enough. What blows my mind is that, AIUI, there had been no suspicion whatsoever of leprosy until they examined his remains — it must have been a secret in his own time. The polemical value of the son of that unfaithful servant of Christ's Vicar, Frederick II, falling prey to the curse of Gehazi would have been immense. His symptoms, if any, before his revolt and captivity, must have been readily concealed — of course, as leader of a revolt, it wasn't in his interests to let it be known, either. Choess 00:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Tidying up
Hi! I saw you copyedited Henry Vi, Holy Roman Emperor... of course it was written by somebody who, like me, is not of English mothertongue. Can I ask to do the same with Malatesta Baglioni and Roger of Lauria? Let me know. Attilios 22:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Re: Link to user page
Linking to a user page from an article is a self-reference, which is something that should be avoided. Linking to an article about yourself would be okay, but keep in mind that writing an article about yourself (since one doesn't appear to exist currently) is strongly discouraged. Ardric47 23:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

How did you do that note?
(copied from User talk:Andrew Dalby) --

...on the page for Conrad of Montferrat? I wanted to expand it, referring to Choniates (better source on this than Roger), but can't see how to when I went into 'Edit'. Silverwhistle 14:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's the only way I know how to do them. The text of the note appears embedded in the relevant paragraph, surrounded by ref ... /ref. At the foot of the article you type the single full word, references / (each of these surrounded by angle brackets). Open an edit page for the whole article and you'll see. Does that answer the question?
 * True, Nicetas has good information including the description of Conrad already quoted in the text. He should be added to the note, I agree. But Roger seems well informed on the Montferrats and includes the detail that Christian was left in Boniface's care. He also lists the three places where Christian was successively held, but since I can't interpret these names I did not include them. Can you? 1. In castello quod vocatur Sanctus Flavianus; 2. in roca Venais; 3. apud Eghependant (spellings as in the very old edition I have). All the best Andrew Dalby 15:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

de Amendolea
I don't object to the emendation — Amendolea seems to be the form preferred for the place at present — but William and his family seemed rather flexible about its spelling. Check the index of Röhricht: William and some of his relatives (one Perrotinus sticks in my head) appear under various appellations, and I think "Mandelee" or something like that is one of them. Choess 00:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Welcome!
 Welcome!

Hi, and welcome to the Biography WikiProject! We're a group of editors working to improve Wikipedia's coverage of biographies.

A few features that you might find helpful:

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If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask another fellow member, and we'll be happy to help you. Again, welcome! We look forward to seeing you around! plange 16:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the link at the foot of Philip of Cognac, which taught me that a lot of the Rolls Series is available at. Andrew Dalby 18:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Cut-and-paste moves
Hello! Please don't use cut-and-paste moves, like it looks like you did on Blondel, which I've attempted to sort out. When you change a page's name by cutting-and-pasting, it breaks the page's history, meaning other people who have contributed don't get proper attribution for their edits. In the future, please use the "Move" tab, or if there's a redirect in the way, ask at Requested moves or just ask a nice administrator (like me). For more information see Help:Moving a page. I see you're interested in troubadours, so I thought I'd give a quick plug to check out Trobairitz, which I started. Cheers, Mak (talk)  23:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Fine, you win
I'm sorry I acted so hostile toward you in the talk pages. I realised too late that you can delete edits faster than I can make them. But please look at my arguments once more. To me Richard's homosexuality isn't a liberal thing, or a 'new age' rendition of things - it's a probable fact.
 * Again, I apologise for the stuff I wrote. I'm just crazy like that. Augustulus 23:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Helping out with the Unassessed Wikipedia Biographies
Seeing that you are an active member of the WikiBiography Project, I was wondering if you would help lend a hand in helping us clear out the amount of [unassessed articles] tagged with. Many of them are of stub and start class, but a few are of B or A caliber. Getting a simple assessment rating can help us start moving many of these biographies to a higher quality article. Thank you! --Ozgod 22:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

aldebaran69
THANKS FOR YOUR CORRECTIONS, SILVERWHISTLE.

BUT IN SEVERAL WEBSITES, BONIFACE I OF MONTFERRAT HAVE 3 WIVES:

 * HELENA DEL BOSCO -THE MOTHER OF HIS ELDER CHILDREN-

 * ELEONORA DI SAVOIA -THE APPARENTLY UNEXISTEN WIFE-

 * MARGARET OF HUNGARY, DOWAGER EMPRESS OF BIZANTYUM.

IN THE BIOGRAPHY, YOU POST 4 WIFES -BETWEEN HELENA AND ELEONORA-; YOU KNOW IS IDENTITY?...

SORRY FOR MY BAD ENGLISH -I'AM PERUVIAN BUT I TRIED TO LEARN QUICKLY-

THANKS AGAIN...

RONALD (ALDEBARAN69)

Aldebaran69
Hi Silverwhistle:

Thanks for the advice about my tipe of writing. Now, I hope you can help in one problem I had in one of the biographs i tried to fix: Alfonso VI of Castile.

None of the sources I consulted give a real solution about the exact numbers of wifes of this King; some say five, others say six, others even seven!

I had a list for you and, i hope you can check it and tell me how is the correct number:

1.-Agnes of Aquitanie, daughter of the Count William X of Aquitaine (some sources say IX). Married with the King ca.1069, the marriage was annuled (1077) because Agnes was sterile.

2.-Constance of Burgundy, daughter of the First Duke of Burgundy, Robert I and granddaughter of the King Robert II of France. After her marriage with Alfonso (1080), she had previously married with the Count of Chalon, Hugh II. Constance and Alfonso had -according to some sources- five children, but only the eldest, Urraca, survived nad finaly became Queen of Castile and Leon. I tried to all the ways to find the names or sex of this four siblings of Urraca, and his date of birth, but I can't. If you had any notice of this, please let me know.

3.-Berta of Maçon-Burgundy. Married ca.1093, she died ca.1096-97, apparently childless.

Here began the confussion:

4.-Zaida, muslim princess, baptised as Isabel and died ca.1107. She bore to the King two daughters (one of them Elvira, married with Roger II of Sicily) and the only son of the King, Sancho, killed in the battle of Ucles.

Some sources alleged she was only a concubine, but others say she was the legitimate wife of the King.

5.- An unknow Isabelle of France. I can't find the conection withe the Capetian Royal Family.

6.- Beatriz. His parentage is confuse; say she was of D'este family, others, of hte Ducal House of Aquitaine. she was the last wife.

Please of I was wrong, let me Know.

Thanks

Aldebaran69 01:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikiproject Biography March 2007 Newsletter
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The WikiProject Biography Newsletter: Issue II - April 2007
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Old World / New World
Regarding your edit summary for the Common Buzzard, I'd disagree that it is a patronising turn of phrase - it's fairly common to describe bird and other distributions in terms of New World and Old World (see New World vulture, Old World warbler, Old World flycatcher). More accurately you could use the more specific ecozone terms Nearctic or Palearctic, Afrotropical or Neotropical, but these aren't as widely understood and there is no ecotropical term that lumps Nearctic and Neotropical on the one side and Palearctic, Afrotropical and Indomalayan on the other. While the term may have Eurocentric connotations when discussing colonialism and history, it doesn't when talking biogeography. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  23:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Biography Newsletter 5
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Chinon Document
I have added a paragraph to the relevant articles and would welcome you opinion and advice. Mugginsx (talk) 17:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Margraves/Marquis/Marquesses? of Montferrat
You seem to be inactive as of now, but considering your interest in the Montferrat family, perhaps you would be interested in the discussion I have had with Michael Sanders concerning his renaming of the rulers of Montferrat from "[Name] [Ordinal] of Montferrat" to "[Name] [Ordinal], Marquess of Montferrat". I have opened a discussion at Talk:Rulers of Montferrat. Srnec (talk) 03:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

George Johnstone
Hello. I noticed that some time ago you added a bit of information about the illegitimate children of George Johnstone and Martha Ford to his page. I am a Florida historian who is researching their relationship in the context of his governorship in Florida. I would love to "chat" with you about where you can by your information if you are so inclined. Thanks! DeborahLBauer (talk) 01:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)DeborahLBauer

William IX and the convent for prostitutes
Hi,

Can you please take a look at Talk:William IX, Duke of Aquitaine?

Thanks. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 06:29, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Elizabeth Shore.jpg
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File:Baldwin V of Jerusalem tomb.jpg listed for deletion
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ArbCom elections are now open!
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Siege of Acre (1189–1191)
Hello You added a bit to this article a while ago: I have queried this (here), if you wish to comment. Regards, Moonraker12 (talk) 23:45, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Ivanhoe (1952 film)
Hello, Silverwhistle! I don't know if you're aware of the fact that your recent edit of the above film has been reverted by an editor called Frankaustx, claiming that it is 'unsourced opinion'. (He also reverted two of my earlier edits, claiming something similar.) You attempted to correct Miklos Rozsa's description of "Reis glorios" as a hymn. You can undo his his reversion by going on the page history, clicking the "Undo" button and following the instructions. If you do, I suggest that you add a reference for Rg. If you don't, I will gladly do it for you. Best Wishes. O Murr (talk) 21:38, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! Will have a look. It's an alba (dawn song): one just has to read the whole lyrics to see it isn't a hymn! Silverwhistle (talk) 21:40, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

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Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. An automated process has detected that you've added some links pointing to disambiguation pages. Such links are usually incorrect, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of unrelated topics with similar titles. (Read the FAQ* Join us at the DPL WikiProject.)
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Proposed deletion of File:Catherine Cornaro by Bellini.jpg

The file File:Catherine Cornaro by Bellini.jpg has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern: "Superseded by c:File:Gentile Bellini 002.jpg."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the file's talk page.

Please consider addressing the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and files for discussion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. --Minorax «¦talk¦» 16:02, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

You have been pruned from a list
Hi Silverwhistle! You're receiving this notification because you were previously listed at WikiProject Biography/Members, but you haven't made any edits to the English Wikipedia in over 3 months.

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title: User talk:Silverwhistle


text:
User talk:Mtcedar

Welcome
Welcome to Wikipedia, the greatest encyclopedia on Earth! You seem to be off to a good start. Hopefully you will soon join the vast army of Wikipediholics!

You may wish to review the welcome page, tutorial, and stylebook, as well as the avoiding common mistakes and Wikipedia is not pages.

Here are some helpful links:
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Hope to see you around the Wiki! If you have any questions whatsoever, feel free to contact me on my talk page! ∞ Who ? ¿ ? 10:46, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs
Hello Mtcedar! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 1 of the articles that you created  is tagged as an Unreferenced Biography of a Living Person. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring this article up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current Category:All_unreferenced_BLPs article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the unreferencedBLP tag. Here is the article:

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 19:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Hirofumi Uzawa -

Non-free content
Hello! Please, maybe you should study WP:FU. I constantly trying to get free and licensed images for the articles on Presidents and Prime Ministers of Hungary. I wish you further good editing. --Norden1990 (talk) 15:33, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:05, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:32, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Mtcedar