text:
Talk:Abdoulaye Wade

Comment
This question is specific to Abdoulaye Wade but applies to pretty much all of the biographical entries. Considering how common it is that non-English names are mispronounced by English speakers, wouldn't it make sense for there to be a phonetic representation of their names? Just a thought.
 * by all means, you are welcome to add one, preferably using IPA. Baad 19:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

bonjour mon exelence maitre abdoulaye wade j s8 un enfant de 15ans et qui habite a dakar et j v etre un footbaleur j pri toujour a dieu qu'il fait que quand j serais grand qu'il fait que j soi unn footbaleur dans notre pays et j v que vou m'aidiais vous qui est notre président de la  république du sénégal j ve que vous m'aidais comment- faire?apellé moi sur mon portable au 4115969 svp.

Well it's actually something like Ab-dool-I What, but the T is very soft prounounced. So somebody could translate that into IPA but I'm not able too. --ቢትወደድ 20:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic group
His ethnic group is not mentioned (and I can't find it online). But he does state that he speaks Wolof in one interview. So, is he Wolof? Badagnani 22:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not surprising to hear him speaking Wolof, as everybody in Senegal speaks Wolof, it's the main language of the country, together with French. So that doesn't has to mean he's Wolof, you could just try to find "Wade" in a list of tribal names as you can commonly recognize the tribe somebody is in by looking at his last name. --ቢትወደድ 20:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

imprisoned at Besançon prison
Is there any reference(s) for this affirmation ?? (He was a lawyer in Besançon)

Wade's age?
I heard (on BBC?) that Wade's opponents in the election accused him of lying about his age, and that he in fact was older than eighty. Is there anything to this, and if so, should it be stated in his biographical details? --Thorsen 04:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Relations?
Is he related to Dwayne Wade? Probably not, just wondering....

Positions
It would be nice to see some information about Wade's positions, esp. on foreign policy, on the page. Chubbles 06:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. Every white poltican has a butt load of information about them but when it comes to a black man their is nothing to be said unless he is an evil dictator. This an example of racism on wikipedia. - BlackBrotherX7

 * Here's a thought: instead of griping about "racism," why not do something to fix the problem? You're free to add any additional information you know to the article.  Funnyhat 21:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia is not racist, look at the Kofi Annan and Nelson Mandela pages. We even have a page exclusively on the list of awards and honours bestowed on Nelson Mandela. 12.218.153.85 08:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
At 4:46 AM EST on 2/28/07, the article only contains the word "black". Would someone please fix this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.89.22.82 (talk) 09:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Has it been reverted? Artaxiad 00:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Better photo?
Are any other photos available for the top of the page? This one isn't very clear, and he has an odd expression on his face. Funnyhat 21:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

 * There seems to be a lack of free images. For reference, this photo taken at a United Nations function seems to show that's one of his characteristic expressions. See also Very piercing eyes, certainly. The Terms of Use for material on un.gov seem to indicate these images would only be available under fair use, if that. --Martinship 09:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

 * The guy doesn't look to be very happy in that picture with President Bush. It's kind of scary.  It is unfortunate there aren't other images.  --Marsbound2024 03:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Biographical details?
There really isn't much on his life here, other than politics. Just reading the talk page tells me that clearly plenty of people know enough to write a section together.RSido 23:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Have some suggestions? we can use some by looking at the article I guess. Artaxiad 00:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Relationship with Freemasonry
Recently, I read in the press that there was a controversy over Wade's relationship with the Masonic lodges. It caused quite a scandal in Senegal and so it should be included in the article in one way or another. ADM (talk) 23:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

The 10:35, 22 September 2011 Roger Davies version of this article is translated into Chinese Wikipedia to expand a stub.--Wing (talk) 12:49, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Abdoulaye Wade


text:
PAC Cresco

The PAC Cresco is a turboprop-powered derivative of the Fletcher FU-24 (later called the PAC Fletcher) aerial topdressing aircraft, manufactured by the Pacific Aerospace Corporation in Hamilton, New Zealand. The Cresco was superseded by the PAC P-750 XSTOL in the early 21st century, but in 2019 was returned to production with the first new aircraft being completed 3 December 2020.

Design and development
The Cresco is a low-wing monoplane which, like the Fletcher but unlike most topdressers, has tricycle undercarriage and places the cabin forward of the hopper, at the leading edge of the wing - which gives the pilot of the Cresco a good field of vision. The high-lift wing has pronounced dihedral on the outer span. The prototype Cresco (ZK-LTP) had an all-moving tailplane, but was lost when the tailplane separated in flight, (the pilot parachuting to safety). Subsequent aircraft have had conventional tails.

Sales of the Cresco were not as impressive as those of the piston-engine powered Fletcher, with only 39 examples being built before production was terminated. The Cresco has been sold in several countries and has pioneered new utility roles not explored by the Fletcher. Although used primarily to spread superphosphate fertiliser, the Cresco is also used in the utility role, especially as a skydiving platform, where its fast rate of climb (1560 ft/min) has made it popular, and as a firefighting water bomber, a role it can perform with little alteration from its standard agricultural layout. One aircraft has been converted for aeromagnetic survey. A disadvantage in the utility role is the low internal volume available for the relatively high-powered engine. The Cresco is normally flown by a single pilot, but has a second seat in all versions. It can carry nine sky divers. Usual powerplant is a 750 hp Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6-34AG.

The PAC 750XL, a utility aircraft was derived from the Cresco, and retains its high-lift wing. As of January 2019 120 PAC 750XL's have been produced and it remains in high demand as an uncompromising utility aircraft able to operate in hot and high conditions.

Cresco II
On 17 December 2019 Pacific Aerospace posted on Facebook an announcement by CEO Mark Crouch that the type would return to production as the Cresco II, with some modifications regarding pilot safety and comfort, for the New Zealand customer Rural Air Work Ltd.

Variants

 * Cresco 08-600
 * Initial production version, powered by 447 kW (600 shp) Lycoming LTP 101-700A-1A engine.

 * Cresco 08-750
 * More powerful version with 559 kW (750 shp) Pratt & Whitney PT6A-34AG engine. Production from 1992.

 * Cresco II
 * Improved cockpit sealing and air conditioning, more use of P-750 components, a carbon fiber engine cowl, and an EFIS avionics setup. Production from 2019.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: PAC Cresco


text:
Talk:Australian snubfin dolphin

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nicole wilson97, Mschouwe. Peer reviewers: Annabelle howe, Juliaeamaral, Cdurhamv.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:02, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

TODOs
Someone should add a range map to this article.

Very interesting!
More information about the description and size of the animal would be helpful if there Is available data. Annabelle howe (talk) 20:53, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

What color(s)?
What color is this animal? The image on the article makes it appear pink-orange, but I'm guessing that's a trick of the light. --FOo 06:23, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

The Australian Snubfin Dolphin is dark brown on the top, a lighter brown on the sides, and a white belly. Use this link (DNA samples reveal new dolphin species)and click on the picture at the top right corner of the page to get a good look at the Australian Snubfin. YIGMoA 01:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC) 03:20, 14 March 2006

Awesome!
I think this is awesome that they found another species.

Nothing completely new under the sun
Channel 10 News Sydney on 1 August 2008 showed some good film taken by a wildflife department study group, of the dolphin sticking its distinct head out of the water, a few hundred metres from a city (probably Townsville -- hardly remote). The accompanying commentary by the reporter unfortunately gave the impression that the animal had just been discovered and up till now was completely unknown. As the article makes clear, it has been known to science for 44 years, but until three years ago was thought to be another species. I'll bet though that Aboriginal peoples in nothern Australia, especially those that hunt the manatee, have always known of this dolphin and have a name for it. If anyone can verify this and give some local names it would be useful addition to the article. Strayan (talk) 00:43, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

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Peer Review: BIOE 129
It might be helpful to elaborate further on the "Irrawaddy dolphin" in the lead. It would also be helpful to more the description section about the snubfin to before the taxonomy. It would link together the connections between the Irrawaddy and snubfin mentioned in the lead.

The first sentence of the second paragraph of the taxonomy section sounds a little too casual, as well as opinion based. Last sentence of this paragraph also has the same problem.

More information should be added to the life history section, potentially reproduction information, if available.

title: Talk:Australian snubfin dolphin


text:
Simon Lennox-Boyd, 2nd Viscount Boyd of Merton

Simon Donald Rupert Neville Lennox-Boyd, 2nd Viscount Boyd of Merton (born 7 December 1939), is a British hereditary peer and former member of the House of Lords.

Family
The son of Alan Lennox-Boyd, 1st Viscount Boyd of Merton, Lord Boyd was educated at Eton and graduated from Christ Church, Oxford, in 1962, with a Bachelor of Arts and in 1966 with a Master of Arts. He was deputy chairman of Arthur Guinness & Sons between 1981 and 1986.

Lord Boyd of Merton married Alice Mary Clive (born 24 March 1942), daughter of the writer Lady Mary Clive, on 24 July 1962. They had four children:

 * Hon. Charlotte Mary Lennox-Boyd (b. 16 April 1963), married Charles Mitchell in 1992 and had issue;
 * Hon. Benjamin Alan Lennox-Boyd (b. 21 October 1964), married Shelia Mary Margaret Williams in 1993 and had issue. He is the heir apparent to the present holder's viscountcy and his son Alan George Simon Lennox-Boyd (b. 11 March 1993) is the heir's heir apparent who is named after his great-grandfather.
 * Hon. Edward George Lennox-Boyd (b. 30 March 1968), married Tamsin Hichens in 1994 and had issue. He changed his name by deed poll to Edward George Clive on 24 November 1999;
 * Hon. Philippa Patricia Lennox-Boyd (b. 12 March 1970), married Patrick Spens, 4th Baron Spens, in 1998 and had issue.

Lord Boyd of Merton lived at Ince Castle in Cornwall until 2018, when it was sold.


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kismet H.C.

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete. humblefool®Deletion Reform 00:55, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Kismet H.C.
I'm reopening this VfD because the previous one only got two votes, ending in no consesnus. But as far I can tell, the objection stands. I can find no evidence of meeting any of the WP:MUSIC guidelines. They are not on Allmusic, but after some more searching on Google I can find only one self released CD. Looks to me like non-notable band vanity (check out the pre-cleaned-up version). Delete. --Dmcdevit·t 06:35, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete non notable band vanity. Fails WP:MUSIC guidelines. JamesBurns 10:14, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per above. Dcarrano 16:00, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn band vanity. --Etacar11 00:12, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per JamesBurns. Vegaswikian 05:48, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Talk:Mataram Sultanate

earlier unsigned comment
Beware putting simply westernised dates against such a thing as javanese rulers dates, or the wrath of some very good javanese historians will no doubt wrip through the edit with sacred kris in hand! anyone can copy out a list of dates - there is a lot more to it even in wiki sense.

Also the complete absence of the palaces and locations may read like a good thematic introduction to issues, but no mention at all is in denial! — Preceding unsigned comment added by JarrahTree (talk • contribs) 06:24, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

List of Rulers
I'm going to remove the "List of Rulers" section, and the commentary in the text about it, which really belonged here, as follows:
 * Such a list in itself is not adequately explained by the text in this article, and careful attention must be paid to the issues that arise from using western dates for Javanese events; the specific arguments used by rulers and their tendency to rebuild palaces after theirs have been affected by the various conflicts.

Basically, the List of Rulers duplicates the text, which gives the (western, yes) dates of each king's rule, placed in proper historical context. That said, it wouldn't hurt to wikilink the rulers names within the text; I should have done that when I wrote the article, so I'll do it now. I'm going to suggest using the naming scheme described in Naming conventions (names and titles). CDC  (talk)  14:17, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I think the deletion should have been discussed before it was done. The dates are attested from Mataram epigraphy, contemporary Javanese documents, and reports of travellers in the region. The later rulers' datings derive from VOC records in their dealings with Mataram. They are not unreliable. Calling them 'Western' is essentially meaningless. All Wikipedia dates are Western in that sense. Should we delete every date in Wikpedia for cultural bias? This calls for discussion, not precipitate action. Alan 03:24, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Excellent point, it clearly needs discussion. as for the litany of possible potential for misinterpretation of dates and occurrences in the palaces, clearly we have read all the carey, remmelink and ricklefs to come to that? some javanists would smile benignly at "they are not unreliable". find me one textual reference to the canals of kota gede before 1980 (sic), and you must be alan feinstein.User:SatuSuro 09:40, 19 July 2005 (UTC) Oh well. I'll leave it you guys.User:SatuSuro 09:40, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I'd aso urge people. before deleting an entire section, tosign their comments. It's more than faintly amusing, after the fulmination abut Westernisation, that I compiled the list from the Indoensian Wikipedia and hen checked it against a number of secondary sources. Of course articles on the individual rulers are preferable. Let us, then, write tem. Alan 09:39, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Greetings Alan, I never delete other peoples items. I fully agree that indiv ruller entries would be good idea.as for lists from *any* source youve done a good job, my argument is probably beyond wiki level and similar to kota gedes canals, too obscure. bestwishesUser:SatuSuro 01:21, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it's allright to use Western dates in an article on Javanese history like this. Speaking of Westernization, even the use of personal title like "Amangkurat" instead of Javanese evasive reverent style of "The King" (Sri Narendra, Sri Bupati, Sang Aji, etc.) is already a case of "Westernization" (but understandable I think). In order to avoid "Westernization", I think one should introduce a short paragraph or two about Javanese own ideas about kingship, and its impact on how they see their relationship with the Dutch. User:akhmad santoso 16 November 2005

New Addition
Hey I think we should encourage the latest contributor to sign in, as there are quite a few items that we could discuss about if anyone's keeping up with this art!User:SatuSuro 09:19, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I really like the wonderful polishing on the first paragraphs. I am already signed in. Here I add more materials up to the division in 1755. Looking forward for the discussion plus a few things I disagree with Ricklefs. Please check them, I think they're worth discussing. akhmad santoso. 11:44 18 November 2005.

 * Akhmad - Welcome, and thanks so much for your fantastic additions to this article! I'm really pleased to see it get good attention from someone who obviously knows a whole lot about the subject; I'm very impressed. I hope you'll stick around.
 * One potentially important comment - it's a fundamental policy of Wikipedia that our writing must be neutral and thoroughly based in outside sources - we only report what others have said. There's a few places where the text you've added makes specific judgements, usually about which scholar is correct on a certain point. Three examples:
 * Modern historians' judgement on Babad’s statement that the Dutch paid tribute to Mataram as “falsely motivated” (like what de Graaf (2000) did) can be made only by a naïve presumption that Javanese rulers in 17th century used Western perpective to understand what happened in Batavia in 1628-29
 * Ricklefs' misleading interpretation was made possible by imputing Western idea of legitimacy into Javanese history. It would be more consistent with other facts of Mataram history to interpret Mangkubumi’s protest as a challenge to his brother’s position as king.
 * Therefore, Houben’s argument that this transfer of power was valid in only de facto and not de jure sense and Ricklefs’ argument that it is valid de jure but not de facto simply missed the point from Javanese perspective, though not from VOC’s.
 * I'm not contesting the accuracy of these statements; in particular, I personally strongly favor giving Javanese sources at least equal - perhaps even more prominent - treatment to foreign ones (though I'm sadly not familiar with the Javanese sources, which explains why earlier versions of this article, which I initiated, were based so heavily on Ricklefs and a few others). However, the statements I've quoted above as examples do end up with Wikipedia's voice calling certain accounts "naive" or "misleading" - that's not neutral. Instead, the encyclopedia article should evenly describe a conflict or difference of interpretation, by citing sources on each side, but it must avoid making judgements about which side is correct. Can we cite either the older Javanese sources, or recent published critiques of de Graaf, Ricklefs, etc that draw on these Javanese sources? I think doing this would greatly strengthen the article, and make it fit smoothly as a Wikipedia article. I look forward to your comments.
 * By the way, details on the Wikipedia policies I'm referring to are at Neutral point of view and Original research. CDC (talk) 18:00, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I think these non-neutral words can be deleted without detracting from the emphasis that Javanese point of view should be given a space in Javanese history. Akhmad santoso. 1:18 19 November 2005.

I have deleted some passages about the interpretation of events because the article becomes too long and I intend to move them to new articles entitled "Siege of Batavia" and "Amangkurat I" Akhmad santoso. 12:41 14 December 2005

Images and maps
Any thoughts on sources for some images to go along with this article? Does anyone have easy access to some Dutch or Javanese primary sources that might have drawings of rulers - or some suggestions where I might find some (I have access to a reasonable academic library). Of course, anything we use needs to be public domain or freely-licensed (per Copyright). I could also do a map at some point - I have access to good cartography software - though it might be several weeks at least. I think a map might really help a reader unfamiliar with Java's history and geography to figure out where all the places referred to in the text are in relation to each other. Any suggestions on this? Sources, formatting, etc? CDC (talk) 18:12, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Merge
I found other article: Yogyakarta Sultanate. As far as I know, Yogyakarta Sultanate is just the follow-up from Mataram Sultanate, isn't it? So, how about moving the other article's content here? Who's agree? — Indon ( reply ) — 15:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The Yogyakarta Sultanate is the successor of the Mataram state, but it still exists under the new name and has been around for 250 years. Furthermore, this article is already quite long (>40K) without dealing with what happened after the split between Yogyakarta and Surakarta. Now, much of the content on the Sultanate of Yogyakarta (everything before 1755) duplicates what is here, and could be removed, with a relevant link here. And that article needs much more information about how the sultanate functioned under the Dutch colonial period, and independence. But then there are already a few divisions that are blank; perhaps someone will add them. If someone adds them they will then need to be split again. The Indonesian Wikipedia has separate articles as well, id:Kesultanan Mataram and id:Kasultanan Ngayogyakarta Hadiningrat. Rigadoun (talk) 19:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If that is the case, then the problem is actually in the Yogyakarta Sultanate article, which has too many unrelated information before 1755. Good, then I will remove the tag and update the Yogyakarta Sultanate article. Thanks for your reply. — Indon ( reply ) — 04:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Problem with Paragraph about Rebellion Against Arya Pangiri
Saya dapat berbahasa Indonesia dan pernah tinggal di sana. Boleh pakai bahasa INA. I'm going through the article and correcting spelling and grammar, as well as adding a few translations of words used as titles. The paragraph detailing the rebellion of Benowo and Sutawija's rebellion against Arya is confusing to me. 1. It is not clear if Arya was and/or became the king of Pajang, Mataram and/or Demak, first of all, after deposing Benowo. At one point, it says he's the Pajang Sultan, but that was Senopati, wasn't it? 2. If Benowo and Sutawijaya defeated Arya, why does the next sentence say that Benowo bowed down to Senopati and submitted, but it says that Pajang became subordinate to Mataram, which rose to power? Senopati was the King/Sultan of Pajang, right, and Benowo didn't want to fight him, so it doesn't really make sense to me that Pajang bowed down to Mataram if Benowo submitted to Senopati. 3. I already altered that last sentence about Pajang becoming subordinate to Mataram because it was poorly written. Someone please clarify so I can correct the text. Terima kasih/maturnuwun!ReveurGAM (talk) 16:57, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Sunanate or Sultanate
Based on history, the rulers of Mataram from the beginning never had the title of Sultan. The first ruler had the title Panembahan, followed by his successor with the title Susuhunan.

Susuhunan, abbreviated as Sunan, is a title in Old Javanese which means leader (king). Meanwhile, the title of Sultan was only used by one ruler, namely Anyakrakusuma in a certain period (1641-1645) or lasted for five years during his reign. However, previously he still used the title Susuhunan.

The use of the title Susuhunan shows its importance. Because most of the titles of Mataram rulers are Susuhunan. This title was then continued by the next ruler of Mataram.

So Mataram does not seem worthy of being called a "Sultanate" but rather a "Sunanate". Because this is contrary to existing reality. Mosmota (talk) 13:13, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I agree it does seem to be more correct technically but Wikipedia article titles are looking for the most COMMONNAME that an uninformed user would be likely to search for. Fact is there are 0 google results either for books or websites for Mataram Sunanate. Dan Carkner (talk) 15:38, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe at first glance in a Google search the name "Mataram Sunanate" seems foreign. This may be because the name "Mataram Sultanate" which appears on Wikipedia is often used as a reference by various online media. So that name became a popular start.
 * However, this does not mean that this is used as justification, as if the ruler of Mataram appears with the title of Sultan. On the other hand, the name "Mataram Sunanate" if searched using the Indonesian keyword "Kasunanan Mataram" will produce mixed results. Even by adding certain keywords such as journals, books and other scientific works.
 * Scholars who studied archives from the Netherlands reported that in his time the ruler of Mataram was called "Sousouhounang Mataram", which means "Susuhunan Mataram". An example of an archive that I took is the collection of the National Archives of the Republic of Indonesia (ANRI) which can be accessed via the official website: https://sejarah-nusantara.anri.go.id/marginalia_search/?asian_name=Sousouhounang%20Mataram&q=
 * This indicates that scholars and publishers have begun to properly examine the origins of the name Mataram. Mosmota (talk) 06:50, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree that it's logically a better name. But for Wikipedia article titles we are also bound to follow the most common usage and a phrasing that appears in 0 books in English is unfortunately not that. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:47, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mataram Sultanate


text:
Template talk:Aircraft specifications

"alt" parameters in template should be removed
The most common usage for specifying the "alt" parameters of this template is to specify the same parameter as main in a different unit. Not infrequently, the unit conversion for the parameter is incorrect. Example 850 km/h is approx 530 mph, but one aircraft page had:

 * max speed main= 850 km/h
 * max speed alt= 600 mph

A better option would be to remove the "main" and "alt" versions of the same parameter, keep just one and use Template:convert, which will automatically yield the same result and avoid good-faith mistakes:

850 km/h This will keep good-faith authors from shooting themselves in the foot.User:skcpublic (talk) 02:00, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * max speed = 850 km/h
 * "Amen", see Template talk:Aircraft specifications below. Peter Horn User talk 01:32, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Try

This will give Max speed 850 km/h (850 km/h) Peter Horn User talk 18:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * max speed main= 850 km/h
 * max speed alt = 850 km/h

Rotor switch
When a user selects the rotor switch while filling in the specifications, any alternate use of the propeller descriptions and dimensions should either be disabled, since the rotors are the wings of the helicopter, or partially allowed with a rotor heading rather than the current propeller heading. --Born2flie (talk) 14:21, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Can you give an example of what it does at the moment that it shouldn't do, so we can see the problem. If we do alter it, will there be any effect when the aircraft has both rotor and propeller (as in some gyrodynes)? GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:50, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Aerospecs template
I saw a merge tag on Aerospecs, and a post on its talkpage suggests that this Aircraft specifications template is a more modern version of that one. Is that true? And if so, would it make sense to merge them? Debresser (talk) 05:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

 * Cant see any merge tags anywhere? both templates are being used by different authors with Aircraft specifications being used on 3335 articles and Aerospecs on 2689 dont see any value in trying to merge them if they both work. I suspect merging the code so they both work from the same template may be complicated but I am not an expert. MilborneOne (talk) 13:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

 * I removed the merge tags. If they are compatible, it makes sense to merge them, as a rule. After all, it seems they are meant to fulfill the same function.
 * After looking at the code and the documentation, I'd say that they are more or less equal. If a merge would be done, some parameters would have to be added, whatever way one would merge them. Debresser (talk) 15:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

 * There is also Aircraft specs which is more recent again - the different templates have different attributes - any discussion about merging them or depreceating templates would need a much wider forum than here. I suspect it would be hellishly difficult to automatically convert one template to the other, with manual changover probably being needed.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

 * There is some complex history to the three templates, reflecting different opinions about the extent of the automation of unit conversions and presentation of the specification. aircraft specifications was the first to be adopted by the project. aircraft specs is aerospecs developed to make it more like aircraft specifications. I believe aerospecs was originally drawn up for glider aircraft parameters. it's all there in the project talkpage archives somewhere. As said any discussion about one or other taking precedence needs to be done elsewhere. GraemeLeggett (talk) 17:58, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

 * Actually, I think it would not be hard at all. One template should be selected, its parameters enriched with parameters it is missing in comparison with the other templates, including alternative names of the same parameters. In a second phase, alternative names could be eliminated. It is just a considerable amount of work to be done, that is all. Debresser (talk)

 * Not a simple task at all, because the templates don't simply display the same data - for example "aircraft specifications" relys on every field having its units filled in manually with data being added to main and alt fields, with "aerospecs" having individual fields for metric and imperial units (e.g. |length m=, |length ft=, |length in=, with the user filling in all of these fields, and in aircraft specs the user fills in just one of them and the and the template works out the others using vconvert - any changeover process will need a great deal of intelligence.Nigel Ish (talk) 18:18, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

 * Yes, I noticed, but forgot about that. Conversions are always a pain in the behind. If just the whole world would use the metric system. Debresser (talk) 18:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Savoia-Marchetti SM.81
Hello. There's a problem with the "specifications" section ("Performance when fitted with Alfa Romeo 125 engines" subsection) of this article and i don't know how to fix it. I know nothing about templates and I thought I'd better report it here. --92.154.149.104 (talk) 08:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * . Thank you for reporting the problem.
 * David Wilson (talk · cont) 11:15, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Ford Trimotor max takeoff weight
On Ford Trimotor page, max takeoff weight alt appears as "(6,120 kg" without closing bracket. I can't see whether the error is in the template or in Trimotor page ")" should be added. --Мирослав Ћика (talk) 14:47, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

 * I've fixed that entry, lines had been added, breaking the template in that article. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)    14:57, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --Мирослав Ћика (talk) 18:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Wheel track dimensions
In my professional capacity, recently I have had to do research on wheel track dimensions for various aircraft, and found the data remarkably difficult to find, and certainly not at Wikipedia.

I suggest that these dimensions would be a valuable and important set of parameters to add to this template. This also implies some standard measure, and I would suggest "Main wheels centre track width" (centre-to-centre) rather than "Main wheels outer wall track width", as the wheel pivots on the centre (someone with better knowledge may argue differently).

A second dimension is the distance from the main wheels to the tricycle nosewheel or rear castor wheel/skid. This also implies one dimension is determinable. On many aircraft, where there is one main wheel only, or two side-by-side, this obvious; where there is a cluster of main wheels then this is more difficult. I suggest that this dimension be from the "Main gear oleo strut to nosewheel or tailwheel/skid".

Another and related dimension is "Minimum turning circle", that can be the "wheel turning circle (minimum)", but probably ought to be also expressed as "wingtip turning circle (minimum)".

I no longer have my pilot license, so I would welcome someone with more (current) knowledge than me assisting on these matters. I will also be copying this request to the other spec template talk page.- Peter Ellis - Talk 01:04, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

 * As you have noted, the information isn't generally out there. Also wikipedia is for a general readership not a specialist one. Wikipedia is not an exhaustive reference for all data on an aircraft - how does adding this hard-to-find information aid the reader? I would also suggest raising the issue on the aircraft group of the WP:Aviation project. The template talk pages are watched by everyone and the main talk page will get a better response.GraemeLeggett (talk) 08:39, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the typical lay reader has no need to know the aspect ratio or stall speed &c 718smiley.png
 * We already report a wide variety of tech specs when we have sources to support them; I see no harm in including wheel-related tech specs if somebody's willing to go through the effort of finding a source that discusses it. At worst, we add two or three extra fields to the template which convey extra detail in 1% of articles, and the other 99% of the time, the reader doesn't even notice that it's missing. bobrayner (talk) 13:26, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

 * I would say this particular spec is just a bit too trivial to include. Also Template:Aircraft specs is really the most current template, this one is slowly being replaced. - Ahunt (talk) 20:42, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * This template is more or less co-equal with "aircraft specs", the latter is slighty more numerous but I'm not aware of any consensus to replace one with t'other. GraemeLeggett (talk) 21:54, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Use of template:convert
Why not use template:convert instead of
 * length main = 4.5 m
 * length alt   = 14.6 ft

Eg
 * length = 4.5 m
 * length = 14 ft if source gives imperial.

Peter Horn User talk 01:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC) Peter Horn User talk 13:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There is an alternative specs template (template:aircraft specs): that does do conversion automatically. If you want to have an article without manual conversion then you can use that. For pre-existing articles, with properly sourced and cited specs, there is little to be gained in switching between templates.Nigel Ish (talk) 05:44, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

 * Surprisingly, this template does not have a warning message about its widespread use and unintended consequences. Perhaps that could be done. GraemeLeggett (talk) 08:08, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What is to be gained are accurate conversions either from metric to imperial or from imperial to metric, according to what is given in the quoted source. Manual conversions tend to be either inaccurate, or perhaps, sloppy. See comments above. Whether it be an airplane, helicopter, locomotive, rail car or anything else, reasonably accurate conversions should be the order of the day. In my time with Wiki I have come across enough sloppy manual conversions that I tend not to trust them. Peter Horn User talk 14:19, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I forgot, the conversion data in the above samples were drawn from KAI KUH-1 Surion and I have since posted a remark at Talk:KAI KUH-1 Surion. I have also tweeked the above samples. Do I need to sy more about sloppy conversions?

 * 4.5 m or 4.5 m
 * 14 ft or 14.8 ft
 * 14.6 ft or 4.45 m / 4.45 m Peter Horn User talk 15:38, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Eureka, use "|disp=output only""

The visual result is Peter Horn User talk 18:30, 30 July 2013 (UTC) Peter Horn User talk 18:34, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * length main = 4.5 m
 * length alt   = 4.5 m
 * 4.5 m (4.5 m)

 * Some data may be manual conversion but some may be taken from the cited source or from using the convert template in preview and then copy/pasting the output. I don't think all the current data can be considered suspect just because it isn't using a convert template - but my apologies if I have mistaken your comments. GraemeLeggett (talk) 06:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Most sources, but not all, give the original data, be it airplanes or locomotives or any thing else, either in metric only or in imperial only. Whether the original data be in metric or in imperial it is the Wiki contributor who gives (makes) the conversion. If template:convert is used, the conversion would generally tend to be accurate. But when the conversion(s) is (are) done manually...it is then when "the fun and games" begin. Of course it may be on occasion that the source gives a conversion which is way off the mark. Whatever the case my be, 4.5 m = 15.8 ft, not 15.6 ft, the latter apparently being the manual conversion. Again, see comments above. Using the convert template in preview and then copy/pasting the output would only be done by contributors who are not familiar with "|disp=ouput only". I used to be one of those. Peter Horn User talk 23:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

 * One issue to consider is that it can't be assumed that the value in brackets is the output figure. It could be the case that the editor worked from a metric text back to feet and inches to match the "cultural" convention that stuff built in imperial units is given in imperial units. GraemeLeggett (talk) 16:16, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

 * Leave alone and if we have a problem then change to Template:Aircraft specs, messing about with what should be a depreacted template will probably break all the articles currently in use. MilborneOne (talk) 16:50, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I agree with MB1, this template is out of date and has been superceded, but is in use in many articles and the sort of changes you are proposing here are likely to break a lot of articles. If this template doesn't do what you want in any given article then replace it with Template:Aircraft specs in that article instead. - Ahunt (talk) 16:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

 * IMHO template in it's description should always use convert template for every example to actively discourage people from doing manual conversions and make sure that everything is done properly. Convert was created for a reason and I don't see why this template should give an improper examples extending the problem we have (with people manually messing with values and recalculations between the systems) only further and further as time goes by. SkywalkerPL (talk) 14:57, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Loading / max wing loading
In Aero Spacelines Super Guppy the "loading *" parameter displays as "wing loading" - Could it display as "max wing loading" ie wing loading at max takeoff weight ? Also it might be useful to add "max fuel load" and/or say if 'useful load' = max (payload + fuel load) ? - Rod57 (talk) 23:52, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Loaded Weight
This name of this parameter listed under Aircraft specifications - General characteristics should be changed to either "typical mission weight" or "notional mission weight" as the current name is aeronautically incorrect and makes no sense logically. The definition for this parameter states that it is: "The weight of the aircraft when loaded for a 'typical' mission. This statistic is cited for almost any aircraft, but it is relatively arbitrary, so only use statistics given in sources." [Italics mine.] Many wiki aircraft articles posit this stat (however, most without any reference citaion for it), but even when cited, upon checking numerous sources cited (even in the few instances where they are) the stat is usually not present in the source, or is clearly stated to be a "typical" mission weight. This "stat" is confusing and so highly subjective as to be practically meaningless and useless

There are several problems evident here. The first problem is that the term "loaded weight" is not a commonly accepted or standardized aircraft parameter. It is defined on the template page as "relatively arbitrary", and it only has any real use for pilots, weapons systems officers, flight engineers, loadmasters, logistics and operations planners, transportation and air support coordinators, embarkation and weapons loading specialists, et al. In other words, highly trained and skilled specialists with access to aircraft operating manuals and performance charts, airfield information, and meteorlogical data, etc., who must use this information to plan, coordinate, and effect complex aviation missions. It is sufficient for the overwhelming majority of general information readers to have presented to them "empty weight/basic operating weight", "maximum fuel capacity/load", "maximum cargo/payload"' and "maximum gross takeoff weight". When it comes to aircraft weight specs, the average aviation "lay reader" is perhaps primarily interested in how much weight (cargo or weapons) lifting and total fuel capacity (quantity and weight) the aircraft possess. With the other weights provided these questions are answered.

Even to present a parameter named "typical" or "mission" weight is highly subjective as this "relatively arbitrary" parameter is dependent upon many, many factors. Among these factors are the purpose or objective of the mission, which will inform as to the number (and possibly type) of crewmembers, type and quantity of weapons or other special mission equipment and/or weight of cargo and/or number of troops/paratroops/liter casualties/passengers to be transported, required distance and altitude to be flown and/or endurance required. Then there are the many physical and environmental factors involved such as runway weight limits, takeoff and landing runway elevation, runway lengths, runway (and sometimes even taxiway and ramp/apron weight limits), ambient temperature, dew point/humidity and field elevation barometric pressure (density altitude), surface winds and crosswind components that limit the aircraft's performance.

This is a little too much "inside baseball" for non-aviation professionals, and for those who need and use this information wikipedia would not be a source for their data. Can someone either amend the template to either change "loaded weight" to "typical" or "notional" "mission weight" or perhaps better, just delete this widely variable and highly subjective "statistic" from the template. Thanks for your consideration. CobraDragoon (talk) 14:05, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Bug: Performance
The Performance section header is shown even if empty, see Tupolev Tu-95LAL.217.248.3.162 (talk) 21:09, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not a bug, you just have to select perhide=Y and it will not display. - Ahunt (talk) 22:10, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Auto-calc of wing Aspect Ratio?
I LOVE the convert function. Great idea. The important part of the world isn't going to be using metric for a good long while, so we're going to need this function. My 54C bike has a 120 stem, so obviously my handlebar stem is over twice as long as my top tube. Unless you know a lot about the domain that seems perfectly reasonable, and all it takes is an error of omission or one wrong letter to induce that error. Not a fan of metric. Be that as it may, could the calculation of Aspect Ratio be automated so long as wing length and wing area are available? Solidpoint (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:32, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

 * I think that this is a good proposal. Perhaps someone who knows the coding can address whether this can be done and how it might affect the manual inclusion of the number, versus the calculation? I am thinking of cases where the ref provides the aspect ratio, but not the span or area, for instance and aspect ratio has to be entered manually.

 * "The important part of the world isn't going to be using metric for a good long while" - there are only two countries that don't use the metric system, so by "the important part of the world" I assume you mean Liberia. - Ahunt (talk) 10:57, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Ah, yes... I am sure that Liberia is what he meant! Why, the economic, financial, industrialial, energy and other natural resources, political, educational, research and development, military and diplomatic prowess of no other nation in the history of the planet can match what it and that other unnamed nation can boast. Not to mention facilitating and effecting the defeat of Spanish Imperialism, German/Austro-Hungarian Imperialism, German/Austrian/Hungarian/Romanian National Socialism, Italian Fascism, Japanese Imperialism, Soviet Communism, et al. No wonder that with all of their accomplishments, including liberating more people than any other combination of nations in history and contributing more of its citizens' tax and corporate money to build/re-build and improve the lives and infrastucture of other nations than the rest of the world combined, that she would be self-righteous enough to not bow to the "one world" movement in eliminating use of its customary measurement system. "Long live Liberia!" (and that other unanmed nation, those arrogant bastards!)CobraDragoon (talk) 14:27, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Why does everyone always pick on the Liberians for refusing to adopt the metric system? I thought the days of European colonial influence were over? Now if that evil unnamed nation had invented its own decimal-based measurement system and tried to force third-world nations to adopt it, the enlightened Europeans would put a stop to that sort of imperial nonsense immediately! - BilCat (talk) 17:08, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

 * Exactly, and since Liberia has the second largest merchant fleet (by flag registry) perhaps those metric-centric elitists should be converting to the customary system as probably an overwhelming amount of their bulk goods that are transported by sea are carried by Liberian-flagged vessels. Enough European hegemony over units of measurement already! CobraDragoon (talk) 17:35, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

 * The coding is do-able but needs to take into account the number of wings, etc. I'd say it's easier and better use of time to calculate manually. Also if it's not a simple calculation then it may fall under the requirements for a cite. GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:37, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Special:LintErrors/html5-misnesting
This template appears to be causing directly a number of the errors in this category.

Is there a person willing to troubleshoot? :D --Izno (talk) 14:15, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

 * Examples of faulty pages would be useful, that category won't load for me. GraemeLeggett (talk) 14:29, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * And is it possible fault lies in ::something called by the template ie lies further upstream? GraemeLeggett (talk) 14:31, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Upstream, possible. I haven't investigated. Some pages for you: Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet, Junkers Ju 87, Messerschmitt Me 262, Lockheed P-38 Lightning. --Izno (talk) 15:39, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * could be the tags.  I don't know why we need them since there are no  tags. Frietjes (talk) 16:00, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * okay, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AAircraft_specifications&type=revision&diff=803446800&oldid=800334125 this probably fixed it], but I still think we can figure out a way to get rid of the tags. Frietjes (talk) 16:14, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * One of those /uls isn't needed anyway. The code literally reads: "If this, end the list. End the list." There's a similar case at the bottom of the template. Probably all that's needed is a return character or two. --Izno (talk) 17:30, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * , agreed. I removed/replaced them and checked Lockheed C-130 Hercules, Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress, and Boeing B-29 Superfortress before and after.  I found no visible changes to the output.  if anyone spots any unintended side effects, we can make changes as necessary. Frietjes (talk) 18:36, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Ornithopters
I know that very few ornithopters (aircraft that use flapping-wing flight) exist—including only one that has successfully flown under their original intended power source—but there doesn't seem to be any specifications unique for them. Do you think that these should be included? I'm no expert in ornithopter design, but figures like maximum wing flex angle in each axis, maximum wing angle of attack, and wing flap frequency (analogous to RPM in fixed-wing or rotor aircraft) could be useful. If anyone out there has worked on ornithopters (ornithopter UAVs seem more prevalent, probably due to the practical size limitations of flapping-wing flight) and knows what specifications are cited, please come out of the shadows. Grant Exploit (talk) 05:51, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

 * Ornithopters may be one case where it is better to create a hand-build list for the specs rather than a special template, just due to the varying data that is available on each design, few as they are. - Ahunt (talk) 11:57, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Edit request: Minor problems with the General Atomics MQ-1 Predator's "Armament" subsection
General Atomics MQ-1 Predator: In "* 2 × AGM-114 Hellfire (MQ-1B)" the asterisk isn't being rendered as a bullet. In addition there is this: "Hardpoints: 2 and provisions to carry combinations of:" (the two spaces are sic). —DocWatson42 (talk) 05:44, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * The misformatting of the first hardpoint missile item seems to be caused by the the removal of line breaks preceding the asterisk.  It can be prevented,, by inserting a html line break instruction immediately before the one generated by the return or enter keys from a keyboard.  It would be possible to implement the fix by inserting the html line break in the template, but it would appear, from some experiments I carried out in the template sandbox, that this will break the formatting of other articles where the html line break has already been used to achieve acceptable formatting.
 * I'm not sure I've properly understood why you consider the text "Hardpoints: 2 and provisions to carry combinations of:" to be a problem.  That text (with only one non-breaking space, not two) is only produced by the template when one or more of the parameters "hardpoint rockets", "hardpoint missiles", "hardpoint bombs" or "hardpoint other" is given a nonempty value.  The last two words of the text, "combinations of", do seem to me to be out of place when, as in the General Atomics MQ-1 Predator article, only one of the above-mentioned parameters has a nonempty value.  In the template sandbox I have created a modified version of the template which only adds those two words when two or more of those parameters have non-empty values.  I have checked the operation of this version on half a dozen or so articles where the template is used, without finding any problems.
 * Since I don't have the template editing privilege, I'm unable to replace the current version of the template with the modified version. If there's a consensus for  the replacement to be made, someone who does have that privilege will have to do it.

 * David Wilson (talk · cont) 11:34, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * P.S: The double space before the added text actually comprises one normal space followed by a non-breaking space, rather than a double non-breaking space. I agree with user DocWatson42 that this is undesirable (article editors can always add any number of extra spaces themselves, if they so desire), so I  the first of these spaces from the version of the template I created in the sandbox, and updated the link in my comments above to point to this latest version.
 * David Wilson (talk · cont) 15:31, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you. ^_^ I checked the article, and have noted the necessary line break for future reference. —DocWatson42 (talk) 05:13, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Add fuel-economy
For example (Fighting Falcon): fuel-usage = 5,290 pounds per hour cruising-speed = 480 knots fuel-economy = 0.7 mpg -Inowen (nlfte) 00:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

 * I disagree this should be added to the template. We have sourced fuel economy information for very few aircraft and this will just encourage WP:OR. Furthermore fuel economy is not a normally reported or used parameter for aircraft. Airliners are sometimes measured by passenger-seat-MPG, but not flat out MPG. - Ahunt (talk) 12:38, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

 * I concur with Ahunt. If it's relevant and reliably sourced, it can be included in the body of the article. But of course, I support linguistic imperialism and kiting (whatever the crap those mean!). - BilCat (talk) 19:44, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 18 September 2018
request addition of:

root chord tip chord dihedral wing sweep

as parameters below airfoil and above empty weight main. This allows for addition of critical information for flight performance specifications to be included in standard template. I tested this code out in the sandbox.

}} JKBodylski (talk) 03:58, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: Such additions need to be discussed first. Please leave the proposal for a few days to get comments from other editors. If there is no response you could try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft. Please reactivate template when there is agreement. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:32, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

 * Oppose: These are very minor specs that are not available for 99% of aircraft. Keep in mind Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia, not Janes. - Ahunt (talk) 13:16, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Ahunt, wikipedia does not need to include every minute detail. MilborneOne (talk) 15:53, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose - while such detail may be considered important in the context of the aircraft's, it would be better included in the body text than in the specs section.GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:12, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Per . -  FlightTime Phone  ( open channel ) 20:21, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree that root chord and tip chord are obscure, and in reevaluating the template I see that they would could be included in the text of specific aircraft discussions. However, definitely sweep, and probably dihedral are less obscure than existing characteristics included under general characteristics, such as "aspect ratio" and "airfoil". What if the request was changed to just include sweep and dihedral? JKBodylski (talk) 20:45, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Again, if these are available and notable for some reason then they could be mentioned in the article text. For instance the diherdral on the C-172 is 1.5°, but why would we need to mention that? - Ahunt (talk) 23:21, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I am misunderstanding the purpose of this template. It is not my intention that every aircraft specifications box include a wing sweep number, but if these values are available, there is not currently a way to include it in specifications. If the question is why would anyone want to include them, I can think of two examples. The first is that wing sweep drastically changes the appearance of an aircraft. A C130 and a C17 have similar off field requirements, but the nearly strait leading edge of the C130 gives a very different look to the 25° of the C17. If the worry is that sweep may not be an important aerodynamic characteristic, consider the ME262, which required wing sweep due to its lighter than expected engines. This sweep gave an unintentional, though welcome, increase in critical mach number, which directly relates to an increase in aircraft performance. If the worry is that adding wing sweep or dihedral to the list of possible specifications that could be included would then lead to ever more nuanced specs being added, perhaps a way to add a custom spec is in order?JKBodylski (talk) 06:06, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I think that is the main objection, that there will be just ever increasing requests for more and more minor specs to be added (as we have had in the past). "Strut airfoil section"? "Rudder tip chord"? "Tire inflation pressure (main and nosewheel)"? As indicated above, if wing sweep is really notable to the design (and the two examples you have mentioned are truly aircraft where it probably is notable) then mention it in the article text. Everything doesn't have to go in the specs section. - Ahunt (talk) 13:41, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The case against adding ever more specification parameters has always been to comply with Wikipedia being a general encyclopedia, the details you and others are looking for are found in dedicated aircraft type monograph books, specialist websites and flight manuals (copies are either downloadable freely or can be purchased). The editors above and myself are all aviation enthusiasts so you would think that we would all be in favour of adding as many specification parameters as possible, as editors though we know that restraint and common sense has to be applied. Editors from outside the aviation project often complain that articles are too technical or overly complex and that the av project is 'doing its own thing'.
 * Adding wing sweep angle is not straight forward, is the angle taken as the leading edge, trailing edge, spar or somewhere else? Different manufacturers use different methods of quoting wing sweep, 25% mean chord line is sometimes used. Readers eyes will glaze over and they will move on to the next article. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by)  20:53, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Alright, seems to make sense. I suspect I have stumbled into a topic that has been debated in various incarnations before. Is there a process to remove this request?JKBodylski (talk) 03:50, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * No, it will be archived in time. -  FlightTime Phone  ( open channel ) 03:55, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 17 November 2018
The current link  is out of date, since the Stall article title and the Stall speed section title have both changed. To fix that, and prevent any future similar issues, the link should simply be, i.e. it should more naturally take advantage of redirects per WP:NOPIPE. I've made the change in the sandbox (but note that the last sandbox revision was badly out of date, so a diff on the last sandbox revision will not be very meaningful). --Deeday-UK (talk) 12:40, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Cabayi (talk) 14:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Airspeed heading clarity
Currently the "maximum speed" or maxspeed parameter of the template is ambiguous. There are a number of maximum speeds that an aircraft can have including never exceed speed, maximum cruise speed. For clarity it may be worthwhile for the maxspeed parameter to be labelled "Maximum Cruise Speed". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.38.135.241 (talk) 14:51, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

This template REALLY needs an example
I'm getting a strong wiff of "only created for the small group in the know" here.

Please make it easier for regular wikipedians to use and modify these aircraft info templates. CapnZapp (talk) 10:07, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
 * If you do not understand how to use this template, please ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft

ABSOLUTELY NOT. That would mean that our ability to edit articles ourselves would be compromised, having to go through a gateway process (waiting for help; possibly getting our ideas shot down). It is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to make something as simple as an aircarft info box equally simple to edit. It is unacceptable to replace proper documentation (and easily usable templates in the first place) with a request to first go through other editors. This is not an instance of "technical competence is assumed" - it's just an infobox. CapnZapp (talk) 10:11, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

 * I have got no idea what your issue is but as this template is depracated and not used for new articles anymore we dont really want to spend to much effort. If it has issues in an article then it should be replaced by Template:Aircraft specs which is the one currently maintained. MilborneOne (talk) 12:03, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

''Discussion about deprecation of this template was moved to the topic Deprecation of this template. --Pipetricker (talk) 15:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)''
 * It sure wasn't deprecated when I visited yesterday. Good riddance, I say. CapnZapp (talk) 20:12, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Deprecation of this template
This template isn't marked with Template:Deprecated template. Where is it said that it should be deprecated? --Pipetricker (talk) 13:48, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I cant remember when but I have asked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft if somebody can remind me. MilborneOne (talk) 14:57, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I too can't remember when or where the discussion took place, but I did find proof of depreciation at WikiProject Aviation/Style guide/Layout (Aircraft). - ZLEA  Talk \ Contribs 16:10, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Given that, I agree that it needs a deprecation tag. Being fully-protected, I guess an admin will have to add it? Something like this:
 * The same applies to Template:Aerospecs.
 * — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:52, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
 * — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:52, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I have added the tag to the page. MilborneOne (talk) 14:57, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:10, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Templates for discussion
Just double checking here - Aerospecs and Aircraft specifications are replaced by Aircraft specs right? --Gonnym (talk) 11:37, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Right. - ZLEA  Talk \ Contribs 12:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Will be nominating these then at TfD so this can be an official process. --Gonnym (talk) 13:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * That's not a good idea, hundreds of aircraft articles have not been switched to the new template. These templates are considered "legacy" templates, see WikiProject Aircraft/page content. -  ZLEA  Talk \ Contribs 14:12, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * We certainly want rid of the old templates or people will keep copy-pasting instances of them. A journey of several thousand instances begins with a single step - or maybe a bot if we get lucky. But is there a better way to formally transition than via TfD? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:26, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The TfD proposal is not to remove the templates while they still have uses, but to convert all current uses of the deprecated templates, to the new one, as that is what the deprecation notice and this discussion says to do. If this isn't the case, then the deprecation notice should be removed. --Gonnym (talk) 15:38, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Tfm template overflow
Comment: Adding this tag causes many style breaks on the pages I'm seeing. Please fix. Maury Markowitz (talk) 18:46, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I guess you mean the line under the Tfm notice overflowing other content, like for example at Concorde.
 * Wrapping the  call in   would fix that.
 * But it should be fixed in the Tfm/dated template, so I have asked for that at Template talk:Tfm. --Pipetricker (talk) 10:26, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
 * . Assuming the above is what was meant, this has been fixed. --Pipetricker (talk) 09:32, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Merger discussion
There's a discussion concerning the implementation of the merger of this template at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft --Trialpears (talk) 15:56, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Feedback
I've done around a thousand so far. Any feedback?--Petebutt (talk) 10:53, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

stripped </ul> tags
When the Armament header has to appear, this template generates stripped tag lint errors for. Over two edits, I moved a, which removed another lint error, but this is a bit difficult for me, so I'd ask the authors or other experts to work on this. Junkers EF 132 has 2 stripped tags. BAE Systems Hawk has 1 stripped tag. Heinkel He 274 has 2 stripped tags. Heinkel He 277 has 1 stripped tag. —Anomalocaris (talk) 01:26, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

title: Template talk:Aircraft specifications


text:
TCP Westwood

TCP Westwood (TCPW) is a sender-side-only modification to TCP New Reno that is intended to better handle large bandwidth-delay product paths (large pipes), with potential packet loss due to transmission or other errors (leaky pipes), and with dynamic load (dynamic pipes).

TCP Westwood relies on mining the ACK stream for information to help it better set the congestion control parameters: Slow Start Threshold (ssthresh), and Congestion Window (cwin). In TCP Westwood, an "Eligible Rate" is estimated and used by the sender to update ssthresh and cwin upon loss indication, or during its "Agile Probing" phase, a proposed modification to the well-known slow start phase. In addition, a scheme called Persistent Non Congestion Detection (PNCD) has been devised to detect persistent lack of congestion and induce an Agile Probing phase to expeditiously utilize large dynamic bandwidth.

The resultant performance gains in efficiency, without undue sacrifice of fairness, friendliness, and stability have been reported in numerous papers that can be found on The TCP WESTWOOD Home Page. Significant efficiency gains can be obtained for large leaky dynamic pipes, while maintaining fairness. Under a more appropriate criterion for friendliness, i.e. "opportunistic friendliness", TCP Westwood is shown to have good, and controllable, friendliness.

Development
The main idea of Westwood TCP, which is an end-to-end bandwidth estimation for setting control windows after congestion, was proposed by Saverio Mascolo. He came out with the idea after reading the chapter on TCP congestion control in the book Data Networks by Larry Peterson. The first implementation of TCP Westwood in ns2 was done at University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) in 1999. The name "Westwood" was chosen by S. Mascolo as due homage to the home of UCLA where he was a visiting researcher at that time. Main collaborators were prof. Mario Gerla, Dr. Claudio Casetti and Dr. Medy Senadidi.

TCP Westwood plus
TCP Westwood+ is an evolution of TCP Westwood. TCP Westwood+ is a sender-side only modification of the TCP Reno protocol stack that optimizes the performance of TCP congestion control over both wireline and wireless networks. TCP Westwood+ is based on end-to-end bandwidth estimation to set congestion window and slow start threshold after a congestion episode, that is, after three duplicate acknowledgments or a timeout. The bandwidth is estimated by properly low-pass filtering the rate of returning acknowledgment packets. The rationale of this strategy is simple: in contrast with TCP Reno, which blindly halves the congestion window after three duplicate ACKs, TCP Westwood+ adaptively sets a slow start threshold and a congestion window which takes into account the bandwidth used at the time congestion is experienced. TCP Westwood+ significantly increases throughput over wireless links and fairness compared to TCP Reno/New Reno in wired networks.

When Saverio Mascolo returned to Italy and "his evolution of Westwood TCP" was named Westwood+. The main novelty of Westwood+ was the algorithm used to estimate the available bandwidth end-to-end. In fact, it was soon discovered that the Westwood bandwidth estimation algorithm did not work well in the presence of reverse traffic due to ack compression. This phenomenon was explained in terms of aliasing effects. The new version Westwood+ was implemented for the first time in the kernel of Linux 2.2 by Roberto Ferorelli and in the kernel of Linux 2.4 and 2.6 by Angelo Dell'Aera, both working at Politecnico di Bari as undergraduate students in 2003 and 2004.

title: TCP Westwood


text:
Talk:List of busiest airports by passenger traffic

Why only top 30?
ACI top 50 airports for 2008 and 2009 are available here: http://atwonline.com/world-airline-report-data Should we expand the ranking to include No. 31-50?

Response to "Change 50th place"
Dear All,

With all due respect to your response (using only ACI source), it is strange you say this as also most of the 30th to 50th airport number sources are taken from internal data sources of respective airports (including FCO Airport), which is totally fine to me but I don't get why then Narita airport source is not considered then. I see this as really unfair. Until today I considered this page as truly reliable, but it's clear it is not the case anymore and will follow other sources.

Greater China
There is a summary on the page referring to how many airports each country has on the list. There is no benefit whatsoever to refer to China as "Greater China", as no airports outside of mainland China are included. This feels like a political statement. The respective airports listed are also listed by "China", not by "Greater China". Please update. 109.68.89.183 (talk) 09:01, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. This was an unintentional holdover from when airports from Hong Kong and Taiwan were on the list Ostealthy (talk) 21:28, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Incheon Airport
In the rangking from 2020 to 2022, the Airport of Incheon (ICN), South Korea is missing. The years before it always placed around the top 20 Is that a mistake or aren't any data avilalible? 37.46.144.10 (talk) 15:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

 * It simply fell out of the top ranks due to the covid regulations in East Asia. According to its own statistics (https://www.airport.kr/co/en/cpr/statisticCategoryOfDay.do) it had 71.2 million passengers in 2019, 12 million in 2020, 3.2 million in 2021 and recovered to 17.9 million in 2022. Not yet enough for the top 50 94.216.68.58 (talk) 07:16, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

2022 statistics and data
The whole ranking doesn't have a unified source, the individual numbers are also not cited. Moreover, several key airports are missing from the list and the list is clearly non-factual and not based on any proper report published by major source. Hence, it can be deemed as a false and misleading content. Hypersonic man 11 (talk) 14:44, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

 * The complete absence of China from the 2022 list is obviously pretty dubious, too. ACI's figures are supposed to be used as the source for the final ranking, but it looks like none of the lists on this page since 2019 reflect that. Erp Erpington (talk) 19:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I had a look at the ACI figures for 2022 and although I did not compare every line I could not see any major differences to the list presented here. I concur that the source (https://www.panynj.gov/content/dam/airports/statistics/statistics-general-info/annual-atr/ATR_2022.pdf, page 40) needs to be cited. As the list is apparently a copy why would you want a citation on every line?
 * As to the omission of China: it suffered a severe setback in its air traffic due to the rigid covid measures enforced. Guangzhou airport, number 1 in 2020 with 43.8 million passengers, ranked 8th in 2021 with 40.2 million passengers and can be found at rank number 58 in last year's ACI list with 26.1 million passengers. 94.216.68.58 (talk) 07:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)


text:
WTOC

WTOC may refer to:

 * WTOC-TV, a television station (channel 23, virtual 11) licensed to Savannah, Georgia, United States
 * WTOC (AM), a radio station (1360 AM) licensed to Newton, New Jersey, United States
 * World Trail Orienteering Championships; see also Trail orienteering

title: WTOC


text:
Brett Cullen

Peter Brett Cullen (born August 26, 1956) is an American actor. He is best known for his roles as Dan Fixx in Falcon Crest (1986–1988), Sam Cain in The Young Riders (1989–1990), Governor Ray Sullivan in The West Wing (2005–2006), Goodwin Stanhope in Lost (2005–2008), Mark Keeler in Make It or Break It (2009–2012), Nathan Ingram in Person of Interest, and Michael Stappord in Devious Maids (2013–2015).

Early life
Cullen was born August 26, 1956, in Houston, Texas, the son of Catherine and Lucien Hugh Cullen, an oil industry executive and part of one of the most famous and wealthiest oil families in the oil-rich history of Texas. He graduated from Madison High School in Houston in 1974, subsequently attending the University of Houston from which he graduated in 1979. His alma mater awarded him a Distinguished Alumni Award in April 2012.

Cullen has given great credit to his highly acclaimed acting mentor and University of Houston professor, Cecil Pickett, who also mentored such Houston-born actors as Dennis Quaid, Randy Quaid, and Brent Spiner. Cullen and Dennis Quaid's close friendship, which continues to this day, dates back to the 1970s; it is Cullen who introduced Dennis Quaid to his former wife, Kimberly Buffington, at a dinner in Austin, Texas.

Career
Cullen played Dan Fixx in the 1980s CBS drama Falcon Crest for two seasons (1986–88) and Sam Cain in the ABC western series The Young Riders for one season (1989–90). In 1980, he appeared as the second Gideon Chisholm in the last nine episodes of the CBS western miniseries The Chisholms. In the four earlier episodes, the Gideon Chisholm role was played by Brian Kerwin. Cullen was the lead actor as Ned Logan in the short-lived Legacy, which lasted for just one season (1998–99). On the series The West Wing Cullen played Ray Sullivan, a fictional former U.S. attorney, state attorney general, and governor of West Virginia and the Republican nominee for vice president.

His guest appearances on TV include: The Incredible Hulk, Tales from the Crypt, M*A*S*H, V, Matlock, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Ally McBeal, Walker, Texas Ranger, Once and Again, Without a Trace, Cold Case, The Mountain, Monk, CSI: Miami, NCIS, Desperate Housewives, Pepper Dennis, Criminal Minds, Lost, Ghost Whisperer,  Private Practice, Ugly Betty, and Friday Night Lights. In 2009, he had a recurring role in the ABC Family television series Make It or Break It.

He played one of the CAPCOMs in Apollo 13 and real-life astronaut David Scott in the HBO miniseries From the Earth to the Moon.

Later work
In 1994, Cullen played a small role in Kevin Costner's Wyatt Earp. Subsequent film roles included Jamie Johnson in Something to Talk About, aspiring composer/hired escort Bryan in The Hired Heart 1997, the spoiled quarterback Eddie Martel in The Replacements (2000), Charlie Martin in the TV film version of On Golden Pond, Nancy's father Carson Drew in the TV film Nancy Drew, and Barton Blaze (father of Johnny Blaze / Ghost Rider) in the 2007 film Ghost Rider.

In 2011, he played stepfather to Selena Gomez's character in the romantic comedy Monte Carlo, and in 2012, appeared as a congressman in the Batman film The Dark Knight Rises. He also played Tom Eckert, father of protagonists Jed and Matt, in the remake of Red Dawn (a role played in the original 1984 film by Harry Dean Stanton).

Cullen has found steady work in numerous television roles for many years. In addition to guest-starring roles in dozens of series, in 1983 he played Bob Cleary in the miniseries The Thorn Birds. In 1997, he was cast as Adam in a three-episode story arc on Suddenly Susan called "Love and Divorce American Style". The following year, he played love interest Luke Barton in the short-lived series The Simple Life opposite Judith Light. Later in 1998, the UPN television network gave him the starring role of family patriarch Ned Logan in the post-Civil War drama Legacy, which lasted 18 episodes before cancellation.

After 2000, he played small recurring roles in ABC's Once and Again, the low-rated series The Mountain, and as a detective in two episodes of Desperate Housewives. Cullen was awarded a meatier part on The West Wing in 2005–06, when he played West Virginia governor and vice presidential candidate Ray Sullivan. Later in 2006, he played a recurring role on Pepper Dennis, which was cancelled after its first season as well. He played a short-lived love interest of Vanessa Williams' Wilhelmina Slater on Ugly Betty in early 2007, and followed that up with a story arc as dad Walt Riggins on Friday Night Lights. Cullen had recurring roles in the series Lost, Damages, and The Gates between 2007 and 2010.

From 2011–16, Cullen played the flashback character Nathan Ingram on the hit series Person of Interest. He also plays Mark Keeler, father of Olympic gymnast hopefuls Payson and Becca Keeler, on the ABC Family series Make It or Break It.

On February 8, 2011, Cullen was named the official spokesman for Houston Works which helps Houston residents with job training and placement, scholarships, consulting, technical initiatives focusing on science, technology, engineering and mathematics and summer job programs along with Youth Summits.

In 2013, Cullen was cast in the television series Devious Maids, and in 2014 Cullen had recurring roles on the television series Revenge, Criminal Minds, and Under the Dome. He also starred in the film The Last Rescue.

In 2019, Cullen played Thomas Wayne in the film Joker.

title: Brett Cullen


text:
Wang Ming-Dao

Wang Mingdao (, July 25, 1900 – July 28, 1991) was an independent Chinese Protestant pastor and evangelist imprisoned for his faith by the Chinese government from 1955 until 1980. He has been called the "Dean of the House Churches."

Name
Wang's personal name was "Yong-shung" until 1920, when he "unconditionally submitted to God" and formally changed his name to "Mingdao"  which means approximately "Testify to the Way."

Childhood and conversion
Wang was born in the foreign legation quarter of Beijing in 1900 while it was under siege of the Boxers. His early life was one of extreme poverty and repeated illness; but he had an inquiring mind and did well at a London Missionary Society school. He later said his poverty had been something of a spiritual advantage because there were many sins that took money to commit. At first Wang hoped to become a great political leader, and he put a picture of Abraham Lincoln on his wall to remind himself of his goal.

Converted to Christianity at fourteen, Wang came to believe "that all kinds of sinful practices in society had their exact counterparts in the church." He decided that the church "needed a revolution" and that God had entrusted to him the mission of bringing it about. In 1919 Wang became a teacher at a Presbyterian mission school in Baoding, a hundred miles south of the capital, but was dismissed in 1920 when he insisted on being baptized by immersion. His mother and sister thought his behavior so peculiar that they believed him mentally ill, and Wang himself later admitted that the "persecution" he had received from others was in part the result of his own immaturity.

Pastor
In 1923, after a good deal of personal Bible study but no formal theological training, Wang moved towards a more mature understanding of the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith. In February 1925, he began holding religious meetings in his home in Peking, meetings which eventuated in the founding of the Christian Tabernacle, a church which by 1937 had its own building seating several hundred, and which was one of the largest evangelical churches in China during the 1940s. Wang also had an itinerant ministry throughout China, visiting twenty-four of the twenty-eight provinces and taking the pulpit in churches of thirty different denominations. Wang was often absent from his own church for six months of the year. In 1926, Wang began publishing a religious newspaper, Spiritual Food Quarterly.

Conflict with the Japanese and the Communists
Wang believed both that church and state should be separate and that Christians should not be "yoked together with unbelievers." When the Japanese occupied Peking during World War II, they insisted that all churches join in a Japanese organized federation of churches. Wang refused on a number of occasions. Despite threats of various kinds, he was not arrested, and his church was allowed to continue to hold services.

When the Communists gained control of China, Wang believed that the new government might indeed allow the religious freedom it had promised. Nevertheless, after the Maoists won the Chinese Civil War, the government pressured churches that had been started by Western missionaries to unite in denouncing Western imperialism. Wang was pressured but refused on the grounds that his church had never had any connection with missionaries.

In August 1955, Wang was arrested for refusing to join the Three-Self Patriotic Movement (TSPM), the state-controlled church. A few months earlier Wang had written a long article attacking the Three-Self Committee headed by Wu Yaozong as a group composed of modernist unbelievers with whom true Christians should have nothing to do. Wang, his wife, and eighteen church members, were imprisoned, and the Christian Tabernacle was closed. After signing a confession, making a humiliating plea for mercy from those he had previously denounced as "false prophets," and promising to participate in the TSPM, Wang was released from prison. Then after recovering from a possible nervous breakdown, Wang recanted, was rearrested in 1957, and was sentenced to life imprisonment in 1963. After the United States reestablished diplomatic relations with China in 1972, human rights organizations began to pressure China to release its political prisoners. When the Chinese government attempted to release Wang in 1979, he refused (like St. Paul in Acts 16:35–40) to leave until his name had been cleared. In 1980 the prison tricked Wang into leaving, in Wang's words "not released but… forced out by deception."

Final days
After Wang's release he received numerous visitors to his tiny apartment in Shanghai, including foreigners from Europe, North America, and Asia. The sheer volume of visitors made Chinese security officers nervous, especially since Wang made frank statements about his past treatment by the government. Wang remained unapologetic, and when a member of the Three-Self Church sent him a donation, Wang sent it back.

Between 1987 and 1989, Wang's physical and mental abilities noticeably declined. In July 1991, Wang was diagnosed with blood clots on his brain, and he died on July 28, followed by his wife's death in 1992. As one authority has noted, despite Wang's old age and declining influence, he had "remained an unrivaled symbol of uncompromising faith until his death."

Marriage and personal characteristics
In 1928, Wang (through what might be called semi-arrangement) married Liu Jingwen, the much younger daughter of a Protestant pastor in Hangzhou. They experienced a long and happy marriage and had a son, Wang Tianzhe, who survived them; but their temperaments were remarkably dissimilar. Wang was obsessive about details, whereas his wife was (in his words) "only concerned about the general effect," "happy-go-lucky," and "very forgetful." Wang could be hasty to the point of rashness, and he also frequently failed to express proper sympathy or sensitivity. Jingwen was exceptionally patient and considerate of others, but she stunned Wang by correcting him in public, taking the view that since he had spoken unwisely in front of others, she had the duty to correct him before others as well. Wang recalled that after twenty years of instruction from his wife, he had made "a measure of progress," but he also warned readers of his autobiography that Jingwen "should not necessarily be taken as a model in this respect." Wang's sermons also reflected changes in gender relations that occurred during the early Republican period, and he preached about marriage, concubinage, and the place of woman in the family.

Religious teachings
Wang Mingdao believed in the inerrancy of the Bible, the depravity of man, and justification by faith. He criticized shortcomings of both Chinese and missionary churches, emphasizing that Christians should live holy lives. Wang likened himself to the prophet Jeremiah who had attacked social corruption and false prophets, and Wang especially opposed purveyors of liberal theology such as Western missionaries and the YMCA, which he said had destroyed the faith of young people.

Wang founded the Christian Tabernacle, which emphasized "the practical aspects of the Christian life." Wang believed that the greatest responsibility of church leaders was to help Christians "tread the path of holiness." He often refused baptism to converts until they had proved that their Christianity was more than a "profession of their lips." An obsessively orderly man, Wang's advice included admonitions against spitting, flirting, brawling, and chewing on raw garlic. Conversely, he advised Christians to be timely, wear proper attire, and observe traffic rules. Although the Pentecostal preacher who had immersed Wang tried to have him speak in tongues, Wang balked at making repetitive nonsense sounds, and he was repelled by the "indecorous behavior of some Pentecostals who 'danced, clapped, and shouted wildly' during revival meetings."

Wang never took the title "pastor," he permitted no choir, and his church had no liturgy. He rarely allowed anyone but his immediate fellow workers to preach from his pulpit, fearing that other preachers might harbor heretical ideas or be living lives "full of deceit, covetousness, lewdness, envy, pride and selfishness."

Professor Lian Xi of Duke Divinity School described Wang as purveying "fundamentalist faith" with "simplicity and certainty".

Works

 * Wong, Ming-Dao (1981), A Stone Made Smooth, Southampton, Mayflower Christian Books, ISBN 0-907821-00-6
 * Wang, Ming-Dao (1983), A Call to the Church, Fort Washington, CLC, ISBN 0-87508-094-4
 * Wong, Ming-Dao (1983), Spiritual Food, Southampton, Mayflower Christian Books, ISBN 0-907821-01-4
 * Wong, Ming-Dao (1989), Day by Day, Crowborough, Highland Books, ISBN 0-946616-43-4
 * Wong, Ming-Dao (1990), The Spiritual Gifts Movement, Southampton, Mayflower Christian Books
 * Wang Ming Tao tr. Ding (1993), God's Grace in Suffering, Hong Kong, Living Books for All (CLC), ISBN 962-7329-04-5

title: Wang Ming-Dao