text:
Talk:Lagrange's four-square theorem

Problem with Jacobi's Combinations
I can't seem to find information on this elsewhere, but this seems to fail on very simple cases, such as the number 5. Since 5 is odd, and has only itself as a divisor (or do we count the trivial divisor 1?) We should have 8(5) = 40 possible combinations of sums of squares. But there exists only one: 22 + 12 + 2(02) = 5 Assuming we allow all permutations of order, that only gives us 4!, and this is not unique to this decomposition either. Allowing squares of negative numbers naively seems to be an unnecessary complication, but I still don't see how this works. Explanation someone please? --71.11.128.29 01:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually "allowing all permutations of order" gave you 4!/2 = 12, because 2 of the 4 numbers being permuted are identical(0 and 0). But then allowing pluses and minuses on 1 and 2 multiplies the 12 by 4, giving 48 in all. Since 8 times (1 + 5) = 48, Jacobi's theorem is verified for this example. Hope this helps. Thanks for the thoughtful question.Rich 01:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The article should very clearly explain that Jacobi's formula counts integer (as opposed to natural) solutions. To the best of my knowledge, there is no useful formula for the number of the natural solutions, although Emil Grosswald wrote a book on the subject of counting natural solutions for the case of representations of an integer as a sum of $$k$$ squares. 129.15.11.123 06:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Question
Why does it matter if the integers are negative?
 * negative integers can't be represented as the sum of squares. Horndude77 19:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * He was referring to "More formally, for every positive integer n there exist non-negative integers x1, x2, x3, x4". Since negatives square always square up to positives I don't see any reason why the should be non-negative. I've edited accordingly. --poorsodtalk 16:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Hurwitz quaternions is a non commutative ring. unique factorization domain is used in case of commutative rings. Why that is used here? I want to point out that unique factorization domain, called UFD for short, is any integral domain in which every nonzero noninvertible element has a unique factorization. Hurwitz quaternions is not UFD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.234.113.82 (talk) 08:36, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Removal
I removed the following:
 * "In 2005, Zhi-Wei Sun proved that any natural number can be represented as the sum of a square, an even square and a triangular number."

This may or may not be true but why does it have to be here? -- Taku 01:11, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Word kevinbocking 22:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Proof
The proof appears in ja article. I might translate it to here if I have time. Anyone interested to see it? -- Taku 07:40, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Fermat's proof?
The article says (uncited) "An earlier proof by Fermat was never published." Does this proof definitely exist, or is it another of those marginal notes like the one about his last theorem? AndrewWTaylor 17:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

 * It does indeed exist. According to Wolfram's MathWorld: "Although the theorem was proved by Fermat using infinite descent, the proof was suppressed. Euler was unable to prove the theorem. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.88.108.163 (talk) 03:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Ramanujan's General Solution
By symmetry, the statement "if we assume, without loss of generality, that a ≤ b ≤ c ≤ d then there are exactly 54 possible choices for a, b, c and d such that (*) is solvable in integers x1, x2, x3, x4 for all n" is meaningless. Each x_n is a square.

Borat fan (talk) 23:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

 * I don't understand what you were trying to say. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 18:51, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Jacobi's Four Square Theorem
In the article currently, it says that the total number of ways a given positive integer n can be represented as the sum of four squares is eight times the sum of the divisors of n if n is odd and 24 times the sum of the odd divisors of n if n is even. Other sources, e.g. this one say it is eight times the sum of all its divisors which are not divisible by 4. These are equivalent (although not immediately obvious in some cases). It might be helpful to give both formulas. MSGJ (talk) 13:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * On reflection I have moved the stuff on Jacobi's theorem to a new article Jacobi's four-square theorem because although related to the Lagrange theorem, it seems not to belong here. MSGJ (talk) 13:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

There are some gaps in this 'proof' !
I think I have found some gaps in this pseudo-proof. First of all: where do we use the fact that 'The generalized Euclidean algorithm' works ? The second one: I am not sure but I think that Hurwitz integers haven't got a property of unique factorization. Because: 2 = (1+i)(1-i) = (1-j)(1+j) = (1-k)(1+k) The last one: even if this proof is correct, we only show that 'p' is a sum of four square of integers or four square of half-integer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.231.20.14 (talk) 08:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Also the norm link is wrong, it goes to the metric space definition instead of the group theory one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.64.84.54 (talk) 12:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The proof is flawed. Hurwitz integers do have a kind of unique factorization, but it's not the kind associated with commutative rings. In particular, it's unique up to unit migration, meta-commutation, and recombination. More information can be found here. Conway and Smith also covered this here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.232.22.170 (talk) 03:31, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I have rewritten parts of the proof to avoid invalid references to unique factorization, and I believe it is correct now. However, I wonder whether it’s a good idea to use fancy abstract algebra like (not quite) Euclidean domains and irreducible elements at all. The relevant part of the proof can be framed as a quite elementary infinite descent argument, and one can do it with Lipschitz quaternions instead of Hurwitz. It does not seem to me to be significantly longer than the current proof, and it might be more accessible.—Emil J. 20:03, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

 * It ought to be unnecessary to debate how to write a correct proof: simply use what is given in the independent reliable source that you are using, and cite it. Otherwise, it's original research, and it gets taken out.  Deltahedron (talk) 21:33, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Norm
A few months ago I changed the "norms" mentioned to be norms according to the definitions given in both Norm (mathematics) and Quaternion. But User:EmilJ reverted all that to the "norms" that were there before, which are actually the squares of the norms, with the comment "Calling this a norm is a perfectly standard terminology, and the extra square roots only serve to obfuscate the proof." It's true that the square of the usual norm is a "field norm", but I don't think it's standard simply to call this "the norm" of a quaternion. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 18:51, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There are any number of sources that call it exactly that: the first page of a Google search gave . It is obvious from your contribution list that your background is in analysis and continuous structures. Here you are in a different universe, this article is about quite discrete algebra (or rather, algebraic number theory). Different fields of mathematics use different terminological conventions, for good reasons. Face it. Now I noticed that you made the same misguided edit to other articles on integer quaternions, I’m going to revert that as well.—Emil J. 11:49, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I only changed the article on Hurwitz quaternions. Are you going to change the quaternion article as well? I had nothing to do with that. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 12:52, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The quaternion article does not deal with algebraic integers, so there would be no point in introducing this concept of a norm there. (I wrote “other articles” before I realized that Lipschitz quaternion and Hurwitz quaternion are the same article. Sorry for the confusion.)—Emil J. 14:38, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Algorithms
Is there a reference to an independent reliable source for the Python and Lisp code, or is this original research? Deltahedron (talk) 21:30, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

 * For the Python code that I added, the pseudo code came from [|this link] which is a stack exchange thread. It is not a published result (as far as I know) and doing an hour of research just now makes me believe that one is not easily locatable for it. However, stackexchange is a self-regulated base of users and the code came from the user on the computer science stackexchange with highest rating on "gives good answer" (reputation). Feel free to remove it if you must. BeaumontTaz (talk) 22:27, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

 * This is a good question, but I honestly don't know the answer. The CL code I inserted can be viewed as a simple translation of the definition into Common Lisp. It iterates over all (ordered) 4-tuples of non-negative integers at or below square root of n, and checks if squares add up to n for each one. Specifically because the algorithm is so literal, I think it cannot be viewed as any kind of research, let alone original. This is akin to rewriting a mathematical formula in a slightly different, but obviously equivalent way.
 * The python code, on the other hand, implements a slightly more advanced algorithm. This is more of a grey area. I would still be inclined to say it's not research, but may be readers with less math or CS experience will disagree. So I think it would be great if something could be cited, but probably not necessary.
 * Lastly, I'd like to note that the python code does not work upon copy-pasting it into a freshly started interpreter, which is a huge use case for these code snippets. I think it has to do with math library functions not being visible by default. If that could be amended, it'd be great. melikamp (talk) 16:57, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

 * I think "your" LISP implementation is so trivial as to not being worthy of inclusion. Pseudocode would probably be better; something like (correcting to produce only sorted lists — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 17:12, 30 March 2014 (UTC))
 * for each i in 0..sqrt(N)
 * for each j in i..sqrt(N)
 * for each k in j..sqrt(N)
 * for each l in k..sqrt(N)
 * if (i^2 + j^2 + k^2 + l^2 = N)
 * output (i,j,k,l)
 * end if
 * end for
 * end for
 * end for
 * end for

 * And, rather than the Python code, I would probably include simplified C++ code (the stackexchange answer, simplified and converted to modern C++); for example,  would be replaced by   .  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 00:10, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Arthur, I don't understand why triviality of the code has anything to do with what we are discussing here, or why indeed trivial code cannot be included here. On the contrary, it is non-trivial code that is worse, since it is has to be cited, is more likely to have bugs, and few readers can understand it. I personally stumbled upon this page because I wanted to see a piece of code (not pseudo-code, but something I could run) to decompose n as discussed. I added LISP code because (a) for the use case I myself represent, it's nice to have options and (b) python code is a program fragment which doesn't really work on its own.
 * I don't understand why you think C (or C++!) or pseudo-code would be better. Neither can be copy-pasted and run, which is what many people want to do when they look up these topics. melikamp (talk) 00:20, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Or, if you want to avoid original research, and stackexchange has the appropriate copyleft, then we could include the stackexchange code verbatim. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 00:14, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Please, give us one good reason why LISP snippet does not belong here. Please also explain why you thought it was a good idea to go ahead and start deleting before contributing to already started discussion. I thoroughly rebutted your argument at your talk page: the argument which was factually incorrect, and contradicted itself. If you cannot state your rationale, then please stop deleting. melikamp (talk) 00:24, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * MOS:MATH. "If source code is used always choose a programming language that expresses the algorithm as clearly as possible."  And you didn't touch my argument on my talk page.  Technically, "rebut" X means to make a statement contradicting X, even if the statement has no basis in fact or (here) policies and guidelines.  Personally, I do not think any implementations are necessary, although the claim that the Python/C++ algorithm is O(N) (even though incorrect) might make it significant, once the algorithm is properly filtered so we don't need to test whether a generated example is already in the list.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 02:18, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Normally, I would say that LISP is never "a programming language that expresses the algorithm as clearly as possible.", but I could be wrong. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 02:20, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The CL snippet is, arguably, clearer, since it's a simpler algorithm. Unless you explain your position concerning LISP in more detail, we have no choice but to regard it as irrational.
 * I indeed rebutted, i.e. "repulsed" your arguments, but you seem to be coming up with new ones all the time. First you said the CL code returned all tuples, not just sorted ones, which was factually incorrect. Then you said two implementations of the same algorithm should not be given, right after saying that CL and Python gave different algorithms (which is true), contradicting yourself. Then you claimed the CL code was too trivial, but did not explain why that matters. Now you seem to be saying that the most straightforward algorithm on the page was "unclear" because ... all LISP is unclear? So it was trivial and unclear at the same time? All the while, you advocate using C, which is probably the worst language to describe algorithms in, besides Assembly. In general, higher level languages should be used. The MOS tacitly agrees by suggesting pseudo-code. Also, you never addressed my claim that snippets in different languages are indeed useful here, because at least some of the people reading these pages would like to copy-paste code into interpreters. I know I do; this is how I found this page in the first place: I wanted to decompose numbers into a sum of 4 squares. I tried the Python code, and it didn't work out of the box (although it did after I fixed it). I also noticed it was a tad too fancy for a general reader to understand. Am I really alone here? melikamp (talk) 15:38, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * My mistake as to it not producing only sorted entries. However,most people have difficulty in reading LISP.  Anyone who thinks   is not more confusing than   needs a reality check.  MOS:MATH seems to suggest that, in the absence of a reason to use a particular language, pseudocode should be used.  That is certainly the case, here.  The most recent discussion that I can find is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics/Archive/2012/May.  Suggestions there include
 * "(1) code or pseudocode is an appropriate way of describing algorithms, when that algorithm is relevant for the content of the article; (2) pseudocode is generally preferable to code, but code may be clearer in some cases when using language-specific features that are difficult to describe in pseudocode such as the yield keyword and regular expressions of the example you link to;"
 * Even if you wanted to include the trivial algorithm you've programmed in LISP, this seems to violate the independent clause of (1); the algorithm is not relevant to the content of the article. Point (4) would allow me to reprogram the stackoverflow code in modern C++, and it might be relevant to the article as the algorithm is claimed to be O(N).  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 17:08, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * As an aside, the translation from C++ into Python seems to be WP:OR, since it wasn't done correctly.... — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 02:21, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * By the way, stackexchange does have the correct copyleft, so we could copy the program to Wikipedia, if we provide the correct attribution. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 02:24, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The test  is not O(1), but the (now Python) algorithm could be patched so as not to need it.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 02:28, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I've patched the Python algorithm, using https://docs.python.org/ as s reference manual. Further changes which would help:
 * The "b" loop now (almost) always breaks, so using an arbitrary endpoint >= sqrt(int(N-a)) + 1 would work; there's no need to compute the sqrt at each "a" iteration
 * If the "k" loop is reversed, a similar break could be used
 * The "j" and "k" loops could be replaced by enumeration loops
 * What does "range" do if the endpoint is not an integer?
 * Modern "range(x)" seems to be old "range(0,x)", but I could be wrong.

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:37, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The code no longer works. Your removal of the "is in" no longer allows the code to function correctly. For instance where N = 6 there should be the point 2,1,1,0 however it no longer finds it. Yes, "is in" is not in O(n) time, however, it's in O(len(P)) time where len(P) is usually much less than n. Either revert to the old code or remove this code from the article, please.
 * BeaumontTaz (talk) 02:56, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Removal of the "is in" code can only result in duplications; it cannot result in any loss of information. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 15:23, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
 * It was more-so the inequality check that you used to replace it that caused the issues. But it's a null point now. BeaumontTaz (talk) 05:44, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

 * This arguing over whether the code works or not should be capable of being resolved by finding an independent reliable source that tells us what to write. A blog post on stackexchange is not usually a reliable source: in this case it quotes no references, except for Wikipedia, which leads to circular referencing.  In the absence of any reliable source, I think it best to remove the code.  If it's important to include it, then there should be an independent reference to cite.  Deltahedron (talk) 06:32, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Proposed C++ algorithm (using C+11 standard)
No "lang="c++"? Anyway, this is adapted from the stackexchange code.  Being lazy, I left the sequence (a,b,c,d) as pair(pair(a,b),pair(c,d)).  If you want to translate that into tuple or another representation of a sequence of 4 integers, go ahead.

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:23, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

 * I still see no reason why we should include any kind of code for the trivial algorithm being discussed here. Deltahedron (talk) 06:37, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

 * OK, OK, I am being slowly convinced that Wikipedia is probably not the best place for code snippets which are not relevant to the content of the article, and it seems to be the case here. But then I would be against adding any more algorithms here. The python code seems just interesting enough to be included. And I am entirely against adding anything in C++, which is almost as far from pseudo-code as one can imagine. melikamp (talk) 15:17, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Use of Euler's 4-square identity in proof
The proof (at Lagrange's four-square theorem) is unsourced (and originally incompletely translated from, apparently, French), and the use of Euler's four-square identity doesn't work. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:47, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry, it's a translation of the french page I wrote a few hours before. z1 is congruent to the sum of the yi2, which is mr, and the other zi are congruent to 0 modulo m for a similar reason. I will mention this in the proof. I have to recall my sources. This is a short version of a proof in a master's course in number theory that has been given for years by myself and other people … (see below) Sapphorain (talk) 21:41, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * There is indeed more needed in the argument at this point, and it uses the precise formulation of Euler's four-square identity to show that each of the z is divisible by m: details are at page 400 of .  Deltahedron (talk) 20:31, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * … It is evidently very similar to the Hardy and Wright version of Lagrange theorem, but is somehow different. And simpler I think: no need to consider separately the cases m even, m odd (m0 in HW).Sapphorain (talk) 21:41, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry; our (Wikipedia's) present example formula for Euler's 4-square identity is odd in that there is exactly one minus sign in each of the 4 squares. I'll change it to a more standard version there, to make it more clear here. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 00:03, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, it didn't work with the former sign convention, thanks for changing them! However we still read below "The sign convention used above corresponds to the signs obtained by multiplying two quaternions": I guess it's not true anymore(?) [By the way, since a proof of Lagrange theorem by using quaternions is anachronical, I think it is justified (at least here) only if it becomes simpler compared with the original proof: it appears far from being the case here, I find the proof as presented in the article long and clumsy. Maybe it should be moved to the article on quaternions?].
 * I recalled my original source, it's Landau (1927), which is probably very close to Lagrange original proof (unfortunately I don't have access to this one). I will add the reference. The proofs by HW and Niven-Zuckerman are very similar. But all three of them consider separately the cases m even, m odd, which is not necessary.Sapphorain (talk) 08:56, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I think perhaps the sign convention now corresponds to $$b \bar a,$$ as quaternions. I probably should change it to $$a \bar b.$$  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 02:40, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Use of Euclidean algorithm in proof?
The current lead of the Euclidean algorithm article includes, "Finally, [the algorithm] is a basic tool for proving theorems in number theory such as Lagrange's four-square theorem and the uniqueness of prime factorizations." When I followed the link to this article, I didn't see the Euclidean algorithm mentioned anywhere. There is the statement that the Hurwitz quaternions have some properties of a Euclidean domain, but nothing about the Euclidean algorithm.

The Euclidian algorithm article is a featured article. Surely it has passed multiple levels of review. Any ideas why that statement was added to the lead?

Thanks, 24.240.67.157 (talk) 23:11, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this remark. I indeed don't see that there is any use of the Euclidean algorithm in any proof of the four-square theorem. In case I am mistaken, I put a "citation needed" tag on this assertion. Unless somebody provides reference to a proof using the algorithm, I will delete the assertion. Sapphorain (talk) 15:51, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Quaternions are not commutative by multiplication
There's a problem with a proof in the section "Proof using the Hurwitz integers"

''Since quaternion multiplication is associative, and real numbers commute with other quaternions, the norm of a product of quaternions equals the product of the norms:

 * $$ \mathrm{N}(\alpha\beta)=\alpha\beta(\overline{\alpha\beta})=\alpha\beta\bar{\beta}\bar{\alpha}=\alpha \mathrm{N}(\beta)\bar\alpha=\alpha\bar\alpha \mathrm{N}(\beta)= \mathrm{N}(\alpha) \mathrm{N}(\beta).$$''

Since quaternions are not commutative by multiplication, one cannot simply take $$ \mathrm{N}(\beta)\bar\alpha=\alpha\bar\alpha \mathrm{N}(\beta).$$

LAGRANGE'S FOUR SQUARE THEOREM
THIS THEOREM HAS SOME CONTRADICTION. LIKE IN NUMBER 96 = 9² + 3² + 2² + 1² + 1²    = 81 + 9 + 5 + 1 + 1

IT NEEDS 5 SQUARES TO MAKE THE NUMBER 96 Ishan Shekhar (talk) 14:56, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 * 96 = 64 + 16 + 16 + 0 --Sapphorain (talk) 17:49, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Subscripts
The subscripts in $$p = a_0^2 + a_1^2 + a_2^2 + a_3^2$$ are too hard to read with the exponents, so I think it best to rewrite this as $$p = a^2 + b^2 + c^2 + d^2$$. 47.211.220.38 (talk) 16:22, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lagrange's four-square theorem


text: User talk:68.163.207.106

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:68.163.207.106


text:
Talk:Olaf II of Denmark

Opening heading
OLaf is a bit unfortunate version of the name, as in Norwegian he was Olav, not Olaf, and in no other language there is Olaf, I think. Arrigo 12:11, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

 * It should obviously be merged as it concerns the same person. Just a need to decide what to merge it under. (Barend 13:01, 18 January 2006 (UTC))

 * The merge should be to this article which has the std Wikipedia form for names of Kings. Wrt Olav vz. Olaf, afaik the Old Norse form would be Olaf, current Norwegian usage is Olav, and I frankly have no idea what his contemporaries would use. -- Egil 06:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

 * No this is not correct. http://www.heimskringla.no/faeroysk/folkekvad/ormurinlangi.php As you can see its still Olav in Faroese. -Nastykermit

 * For reference, the name of the article that has been merged into this one was Olof Haakonson. I will remove the mergefrom template. Ardric47 23:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

No, this article should be renamed Oluf II of Denmark, because he was king of Denmark first and Norway second (and both only by name). No offense, but don't let any nationalistic Norwegians fool you into thinking otherwise... --dllu 12:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Nationalistic Norwegians? Please, you Danes have an army of nationalists editing all pages that has anything to do with Norwegian-Danish relations.* -nastykermit

Request Move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Oluf II of Denmark → Olaf II of Denmark — Olaf is the English translation of the Norwegian Olav and the Danish Oluf, also Olaf I of Denmark, Olaf III of Norway, Olaf II of Norway, Olaf I of Norway is under Olaf not Oluf or Olav.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 22:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The way to keep out of national rivalries is to follow what English does, no matter what it is. Olaf, please. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:44, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Support for reasons given above. SergeWoodzing (talk) 06:24, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Support for reasons as above. -- Doug (talk) 23:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Succession dispute in 1375
It should go into more depth about succession dispute in 1375 between Olaf and his mother Margaret and Albert IV, Duke of Mecklenburg, the son of Ingeborg of Denmark.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 05:23, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Circumstances of end of reign.
Was he overthrown? If not, what was the date of his death? --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 14:01, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Proposed merge of False Olaf into Olaf II of Denmark
False Olaf was recently split from Olaf II of Denmark - I am not convinced this needs a stand-alone article, at least not right now. The content at False Olaf was and can be readily be accommodated in Olaf II of Denmark. There seems no reason to split the content at its current length. Polyamorph (talk) 06:21, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

 * Oppose Length is not the only factor in a decision to split someone into a separate article. This article, although short, is enough to justify an article in its own right.  We already have articles on impostor pretenders which theoretically might be merged with the article on the person they impersonated, but that doesn't mean they should be.  It was confusing matters to have "Olaf II of Demark" in italics in e.g. the category "Impostor pretenders". PatGallacher (talk) 13:08, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Just look at the category Category:Impostor pretenders. We have a whole pile of articles, several of them relatively short and which could be merged into the article on the person who they impersonated, but that doesn't mean that they should be.  See e.g. False Margaret. PatGallacher (talk) 13:23, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose The article on the king is so short that all that info about the impostor gets too dominant if it's in there. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:14, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose False Olof is relevant enough to stand on its own, but may not be relevant to mention in the king's article, except maybe in a small note. There is a whole category of royal imposter pretenders.--Aciram (talk) 19:09, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Categories in themselves, and the articles that may or may not be in them, are not a reliable indicator of standalone notability. Polyamorph (talk) 07:00, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Olaf II of Denmark


text: User talk:82.163.182.147

title: User talk:82.163.182.147


text:
Talk:Khwae Noi River

Monorchism
Anyone remember the words of the title song in the film of the river kwai as sung allegedly by british pows?

Hitler, he only had one ball

Himmler, had two but very small

...

But poor old Goebels had no balls at all.

 * See Hitler has only got one ball. -R. fiend 15:50, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Advertisement for convention
Amazonman1, while I sympathize with your cause, a Wikipedia article is not the place to voice these concerns in this manner. If you have any information to add, please try to do so in the spirit of creating a better encyclopedia article. I look forward to seeing any new information you might have. Thanks. Ufwuct 15:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Khwae or Kwae???
There is apparently a contradiction in the transcription here. is it kwae or khwae, with the aspirate kh? Could any Thai speaker clarify this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.21.202.46 (talk • contribs)
 * the upper part of the Mae Klong was renamed to Kwae Yai (big tributary)

 * It's quite clear from reading the Thai spelling - ค (kho khwai ) us the aspirate kh, only it is often "wrongly" transcribed as k. andy 11:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

River Kwai redirect
If this is, as the article clearly states in its opening words, the River Kwai, then why does River Kwai redirect elsewhere? Either this article or the redirect needs to be fixed. -R. fiend (talk) 13:13, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Kwai please!
Common everybody knows the name and I'm sure its the best known river in Thailand thanks to the movie. If this is not accepted then rename Rome, Roma, Athens, Athinai and Lisbon, Lisboa! --213.55.224.153 (talk) 23:02, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Khwae Noi River


text:
British Rail Class 466

The British Rail Class 466 Networker is a fleet of 43 electric multiple units that were built by Metro-Cammell in 1993 and 1994. The units are currently operated by Southeastern.

Description
The Class 466 EMUs were built between 1993 and 1994 by Metro-Cammell in Washwood Heath, for the Network SouthEast sector of British Rail. As part of the privatisation of British Rail, all were sold to Angel Trains. They were operated by Network SouthEast until 1996, and then by Connex South Eastern until 2003, South Eastern Trains until 2006 and Southeastern to the present day.

Each of these units is formed of two coaches that have dimensions of 20.89 x and a top speed of 75 mph.

Class 466 units operate in multiple with Class 465s. They were historically used as individual units on rural routes, mainly the Sheerness Line between Sittingbourne and Sheerness, displacing the Class 508/2s which operated on this branch line and on the Bromley North branch between Grove Park and Bromley North. However, owing to their non-compliance with accessibility standards, since 1 January 2021 they may only run coupled to a Class 465 unit.

The Class 466s were also used on the Medway Valley line between Strood, Maidstone West and Tonbridge, and in the leaf fall and winter season of 2011, the Class 466s were doubled up to make 4 car units on the Medway Valley line to help stop the poor adhesion along the line when only a single unit runs. They also ran doubled up or coupled with a Class 465 on the Sheerness Line during the winters of 2009/10 and 2010/11. From the May 2012 timetable changes, Class 375s replaced the Class 466s on the Medway Valley line and from December 2019 on the Sheerness Branch Line.

These two-car EMUs are formed of a driving motor carriage (DMSO: Driving Motor Standard Open) and a driving trailer carriage (DTSO, with lavatory); all on-board seating is standard accommodation. A Solid State Traction Converter package controls 3-phase AC Traction motors, which allows for Rheostatic or Regenerative Dynamic braking. Primary braking system is electro-pneumatically actuated disc brakes, which is blended with the Dynamic brakes. Speed Probes on every axle of the unit provide for Wheel Slip/Slide Protection. A solid-state Auxiliary Converter provides 110 V DC and 240 V AC supplies; this is the source of the loud buzzing noise which can be heard when the train is stationary. The Aux Converter is located on the driving trailer, along with the toilet. The units use air-operated sliding plug doors.

Some are scheduled to be replaced by Class 707s, with two hauled to Worksop for store by Harry Needle Railroad Company in June 2021.

Refurbishment
The 466s were repainted by Wabtec Rail at Doncaster Works into a variation of Southeastern livery with lilac doors and midnight blue lower band.

Accidents and incidents
On 5 February 2007 a bridge inspection unit working on the M20 motorway was deployed over a railway bridge between Maidstone Barracks and Aylesford stations. The gantry on the bridge inspection unit was struck by 466041 working a Paddock Wood to Gillingham service, causing significant damage to the leading carriage and wrecking the gantry. The train driver and the sole passenger were slightly injured. Nobody was on the gantry at the time.

title: British Rail Class 466


text:
The Power of Good-Bye

"The Power of Good-Bye" is a song by American singer Madonna, taken from her seventh studio album Ray of Light (1998). It was written by Madonna and Rick Nowels, and was produced by the singer with William Orbit and Patrick Leonard. The song was released as the fourth single from the album on September 22, 1998, being additionally distributed as a double A-Side single in the United Kingdom with "Little Star". Lyrically, the track talks about how free and empowering saying good-bye or ending a relationship can feel. The melancholy electronica ballad features shuffle beats, acoustic guitars and sweeping strings arranged by Craig Armstrong.

"The Power of Good-Bye" received acclaim from music critics, who went on to recognize the song as one of the best on Ray of Light, with praise going to its instrumentation and electronic vibe, as well as Madonna's vocals which were compared to "Frozen" (1998). The song attained commercial success across Europe, reaching the top 10 of the charts in over nine countries, including Austria, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Spain and the United Kingdom, while in the United States it reached number 11, becoming Madonna's 37th top 20 hit and her seventh-highest debut at the time. Its blue-green tinted music video was directed by Matthew Rolston in Malibu, California and features actor Goran Višnjić as her love interest. Madonna has performed the song live on several award shows and during various appearances on television but has never included it in the standard set list on tour.

Background and release
Between 1996 and the release of this song's associated album in 1998, Madonna went through a number of "life-changing experiences" including giving birth to her daughter Lourdes, interest in Eastern mysticism and Kabbalah, as well as playing the title role in the film adaptation of the musical Evita (1996). A year later, following the promotion of the Evita soundtrack, she started working on Ray of Light; the album would reflect her changed perspectives about life. Madonna wrote songs with William Orbit, Patrick Leonard and Rick Nowels.

In the meantime, Madonna had written "The Power of Good-Bye" with Nowels; it was one of the nine songs they had written for the album. Nowels had always wanted to work with Madonna, admiring her previous work with Leonard, Stephen Bray as well as Nile Rodgers. The songwriter was in New York for the Grammy Awards, and during a shopping expedition in Barneys, he met Madonna. Nowels commended the singer on her songwriting skills, being later invited to Los Angeles for writing sessions. According to Lucy O'Brien, author of Madonna: Like an Icon, "[Nowels] was struck by [Madonna's] lyric writing", admitting that, "It was deep, poetic and intelligent. When she's on and at her best she's on a par with Joni Mitchell or Paul Simon". He also stated that the singer's songwriting prowess was benefited from her "voracious reading". Three songs from their sessions were selected for the final track list, "The Power of Good-Bye", "Little Star" and "To Have and Not to Hold".

After issuing "Drowned World/Substitute for Love" as the album's third single worldwide, "The Power of Good-Bye" was chosen to be released as the album's fourth single, since "radio programmers and diehard fans [had] long been clamoring [for it]." In the United States, the song was the album's third single, serviced to contemporary hit radio on September 1, 1998, and released to retail on September 22, 1998, in a two-track format. On October 27, 1998, the single was issued in Canada. In the United Kingdom, "The Power of Good-Bye" was distributed as a double A-side with "Little Star" on November 23, 1998. In the rest of Europe, the latter was included on the single releases as a B-side. In the European maxi-singles, several experimental remixes of the track by Luke Slater and an additional remix by Dallas Austin, who previously worked with Madonna on her Bedtime Stories (1994) album, were included. As noted by AllMusic Jose F. Promis, the "Luke Slater's Super Luper Mix" "turns the ballad into a thumping deep house anthem, making it sound like a completely different song." Meanwhile, "Fabien's Good God Mix" is described as "an electronic, tripped-out, drum'n'bass-heavy mix which keeps the integrity of the original song", Promis noted.

Recording and composition
After the songwriting sessions ended with Nowels, Madonna started collaborating with Orbit and Leonard for recording the tracks. However, since Leonard could not delve much studio time, Madonna worked solely with Orbit. Around June 1997, the singer entered the Larrabee North Studio, Universal City, California to record the album, accompanied by Orbit, an engineer and a tape operator. According to Orbit, "Most of the tracks pre-existed, so Madonna would work on vocals and lyrics at home, or driving around in her car." The producer was initially uncomfortable with the singer around the studio checking the recording process, but gradually entered into a work dynamics with her. However, his disorganized nature almost got him fired when he reached Madonna's house to play "The Power of Goodbye" and realized that he had carried the wrong DAT file. Madonna was not impressed and Orbit had to "virtually" remain in the studio for a week and deliver the final track.

"The Power of Good-Bye" features production credit from Madonna, Orbit and Leonard, while Craig Armstrong was responsible for string arrangement. It was written in the time signature of common time, and is composed in the key of F minor with a moderate tempo of 80 beats per minute. Madonna's vocals range from G3 to C5 and the song follows a basic sequence of Fm–D♭–A♭–E♭ as its chord progression. It is an electronica melancholy ballad, with its arrangement being "anchored by a crisp shuffle beat and sweetened by occasional orchestral string flourishes and contrasting acoustic guitar strumming.

According to Rikky Rooksby, author of The Complete Guide to the Music of Madonna, "The Power of Good-Bye" begins with a four-chord arpeggio sequence. It has "catchy" melody phrases during the verses and a synth trumpet at the end of the first chorus, as well as Armstrong's strings present in the background. It also contains sustained notes on the instrumental sections, a characteristic for the songs on Ray of Light. Doubled acoustic guitar chords give an organic vibe during the beginning of the second verse, following a brief coda. The song also infuses computer blips and techno effect sounds, which Orbit achieved by using a Korg MS-20 analog synthesizer. The producer explained that "[t]here's something about [the MS-20's] transient peaks that are very spiky. And you can make that machine scream. Its two filters are very severe".

Lyrically, "The Power of Good-Bye" talks the strength that comes in letting go, and it was considered "a sort of sonic sister to 'Frozen'", since both deal with themes of a heart closed towards love. This is emphasized in the lyrics, "Your heart is not open so I must go" as well as "Freedom comes when you learn to let go, Creation comes when you learn to say no". The idea for using detachment as the inspiration for the song stemmed from Madonna's interest in Buddhist philosophy, as well as practicing Yoga. Nowels described the lyrics as "stunning" and commended its confessional nature. He also described the track as a "meditation" and "a beautiful poem". Australian music critic and friend of Madonna, Molly Meldrum, claimed the lyrics were about the singer's former husband Sean Penn. The lyrical content was also compared to literary works of William Shakespeare, Sylvia Plath and Anne Sexton.

Critical reception
Stephen Thomas Erlewine of AllMusic picked "The Power of Good-Bye" as one of Ray of Light's highlights, while Amy Pettifer of The Quietus called it "one of [the singer]'s finest moments". Larry Flick of Billboard praised the fact that "[Madonna] brilliantly nestles a dewy love ballad within a cutting-edge electronic pop framework." He noted that "[one] can listen to this track a dozen times and still pluck something new from the richly layered arrangement", while highlighting Madonna's vocals, writing that she "performs with a confidence that allows her to flawlessly merge a widened vocal range with a considerable dose of raw emotion and soul." Daily Record said it is "brilliant". Bryan Lark of The Michigan Daily picked the song and "Frozen" as "the album's best two tracks", noting that both proved that "[Madonna] still likes to get into the groove, explaining why this a techno album and not part of the 'Mood' series." Greg Kot of the Chicago Tribune felt that the "rapturous sweep of '[The] Power of Good-Bye' [proves that] Madonna has succeeded where all of her pop peers have failed: She's made not just street-smart disco, but smart pop." Authors Allen Metz and Carol Benson wrote in The Madonna Companion that the track, along with "Frozen" and "To Have and Not to Hold" from the album, formed a "dream trilogy" during which Madonna does a monologue with herself, talking about divinity.

Rachel Brodsky of Spin remarked that both "The Power of Good-Bye" and "Frozen" were able to "cement the mainstream crossover of a dance culture once relegated to illegal basement parties". Elysa Gardner of the Los Angeles Times perceived that "Madonna's enduring knack for incorporating hip and exotic textures into accessible pop tunes is evident on avant-leaning dance tracks such as 'Nothing Really Matters' and 'The Power of Good-bye'." Charlotte Robinson of PopMatters praised the inclusion of the recording and other Orbit tracks on Madonna's 2001 compilation album GHV2, for representing "a testament to [the producer's] ability to use gadgets and electronic wizardry not to alienate listeners, but to draw them in". Sal Cinquemani of Slant Magazine gave an A− grade to the song for its composition, writing that it was "[s]tructured like your average adult contemporary ballad with enough electronic sheen to sound edgy, 'The Power of Goodbye' was the ultimate in electronica-lite." While ranking Madonna's singles in honor of her 60th birthday, The Guardians Jude Rogers placed the track at number 29, calling it one of Ray of Lights "many powerful sub-aquatic electronic" ballads. Similarly, Entertainment Weekly's Chuck Arnold listed "The Power of Good-Bye" as the singer's 41st best single, writing that "a knowing reference to the wide-eyed plea of her earlier hit 'Open Your Heart', this gorgeous goodbye almost makes the heartache worth it". Medium's Richard LaBeau deemed it "one of the most underrated songs of Madonna’s career, this melancholy electronica ballad is one of her most deeply affecting".

Chart performance
"The Power of Good-Bye" entered the US Billboard Hot 100 chart at number 24 on the issue for the week ending October 17, 1998, becoming Madonna's 16th single to debut inside the top 40 and also her 38th overall top 40 hit. It also became the seventh-highest debut of her career. It eventually peaked at number 11 on the week ending November 28, 1998. According to Jose F. Promis of AllMusic, what kept the song from reaching the top 10 was because "[its maxi CD], unfortunately, never saw the light of day in the U.S." "The Power of Good-Bye" was present for a total of 19 weeks on the Hot 100. In Canada, the song debuted at number 87 on the RPM Top Singles chart. It reached a peak of number 16 on the chart after 10 weeks.

In the United Kingdom, the song had better chart placement. The A-side with "Little Star" debuted at number six on the UK Singles Chart, and was present for a total of 11 weeks, selling 175,095 copies as of August 2008, according to the Official Charts Company. It became Madonna's 36th best-selling single in that country and in May 2018 was certified Silver by the British Phonographic Industry (BPI). The CD version of the song charted separately, debuting and peaking at number 91.

In countries like Austria, Finland, Germany, Netherlands, Scotland, Spain and Switzerland "The Power of Good-Bye" was able to reach the top 10. Its high chart placements enabled the track to debut at number two on the pan-Eurochart Hot 100 Singles, behind "Believe" (1998) by singer Cher. It further attained Gold certifications from Austria, Germany and Sweden. In Spain, "The Power of Good-Bye" was the only single from Ray of Light to not reach number one, meanwhile in Australia the song was her first single since "Love Don't Live Here Anymore" (1996) to miss the top 20 peaking at number 33.

Music video
The music video for "The Power of Good-Bye" was directed by Matthew Rolston, and was filmed from August 8–10, 1998 at Silvertop House in Los Angeles, California and Malibu Beach. According to Entertainment Tonight, the filming was emotional for Madonna due to the song's meaning of break-up and "love story gone wrong". She wanted to make the visual's storyline dramatic, hence chose Rolston as the director and together they concocted the emotional narrative of the clip. Although she respected the director's vision of the clip, Madonna nevertheless wanted to be a part of the creative process of the videotaping. The scenes of the singer walking along the beach were shot with her actually walking on a treadmill.

Madonna's lover in the video is played by Croatian actor Goran Višnjić, who was selected by the singer after she saw his acting in the British film Welcome to Sarajevo (1997). Calling him "the sexiest male working today", Madonna explained that "[she] was looking for an actor to be in [the] video and his face came right into my head". The video premiered on MTV on September 10, 1998, a few minutes before the 1998 MTV Video Music Awards show began. It was occasionally played on The Warner Bros. Network after the television show Felicity, which played the song as the background music during its TV ads.

The video shows Madonna and Višnjić playing chess and ultimately the singer destroying the chess board, symbolizing an end to their relationship. She then goes walking by the sea, passing a man walking his dog on the beach. Intercut are scenes of Madonna singing the song in front of a curtain. The video is color graded to a blue-green tint and the chess scene was inspired by that in the 1968 heist film The Thomas Crown Affair (with Steve McQueen and Faye Dunaway). Listing the clip at number 23 on their countdown of "Madonna's 55 Best Videos", Louis Virtel from The Backlot said that the singer looked "startlingly gorgeous, and her throes of agony at video's end occur in only the loveliest, bluest light."

The scenes showing Madonna walking alone on the beach was an homage to actress Joan Crawford in the 1946 film Humoresque. Christopher Rosa from VH1 listed it as one of Madonna's 10 Most Underrated Videos. He compared the blue-tinged visuals to the video for "Frozen", but found the plot to be more complex. Rosa also noted that the ending showing Madonna walking towards the sea was purposefully ambiguous. "Does Madonna drown herself in the ocean? Does she move on from her lover? Whatever the case, there is no denying this moody video is one of Madge's most effective ever," he concluded. The video can be found on the Madonna compilations, The Video Collection 93:99 (1999) and Celebration: The Video Collection (2009).

Live performances
Madonna first performed "The Power of Good-Bye" on October 23, 1998, during the VH1 and Vogue Fashion Awards, dressed in black latex and leather, accompanied by the children of Opus 118 from The Harlem School of the Arts. On November 12, the singer performed the song at the 1998 MTV Europe Music Awards in Italy, dressed in black. John Dingwall from Daily Record noted that Madonna "struggled" on delivering the performance, as she seemed nervous. "The Power of Good-Bye" was also one of the few singles that Madonna has performed on the BBC program Top of the Pops, which aired seven days later. On November 23, 1998, she appeared on the Spanish RTVE show Séptimo de caballería and performed "The Power of Good-Bye", along with her European single, "Drowned World/Substitute for Love".

Track listings and formats

 * US 7-inch vinyl, cassette, and CD single
 * 1) "The Power of Good-Bye"(Album Version) – 4:10
 * 2) "Mer Girl" – 5:32

 * Australian and Japanese maxi-CD
 * 1) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Album Version) – 4:13
 * 2) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Dallas' Low End Mix) – 4:34
 * 3) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Luke Slater's Super Luper) – 8:45
 * 4) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Luke Slater's Filtered Mix) – 6:07
 * 5) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Fabien's Good God Mix) – 8:22

 * European 12-inch vinyl
 * 1) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Dallas' Low End Mix) – 4:34
 * 2) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Luke Slater's Super Luper) – 8:45
 * 3) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Fabien's Good God Mix) – 8:22
 * 4) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Album Version) – 4:10

 * European and UK CD single
 * 1) "The Power Of Good-Bye" (Album Version) – 4:10
 * 2) "Little Star" – 5:18

 * Maxi CD single
 * 1) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Album Version) – 4:10
 * 2) "Little Star" – 5:18
 * 3) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Dallas' Low End Mix) – 4:34

 * Digital single (2023)
 * 1) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Album Version) – 4:11
 * 2) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Dallas' Low End Mix) – 4:34
 * 3) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Slater's Super Luper Mix) – 8:46
 * 4) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Fabien's Good God Mix) – 8:23
 * 5) "The Power of Good-Bye" (Slater's Filtered Mix) – 6:07

Credits and personnel
Credits are adapted from the liner notes of Ray of Light.

 * Madonna – lead vocals, songwriter, producer
 * Rick Nowels – songwriter
 * William Orbit – producer, arrangement, drum programming, sequencer, mixing
 * Patrick Leonard – producer
 * Craig Armstrong – strings
 * Mark Endert – engineer
 * Ted Jensen – mastering
 * Mario Testino – photography
 * Kevin Reagan – art direction, design

title: The Power of Good-Bye


text:
RanXerox

RanXerox is an Italian science fiction graphic novel series by Stefano Tamburini and Tanino Liberatore, two Italian artists who had worked on such magazines as Cannibale and Frigidaire. Conceived as a bizarre antihero, RanXerox is a mechanical creature made from Xerox photocopier parts.

At first (1978, in Italian, in Cannibale) the name was "Rank Xerox", identical to that of a joint venture between the Xerox Corporation of the U.S. and The Rank Organisation of the U.K., the latter of which manufactures and markets Xerox equipment in Europe. Due to a threatened lawsuit by Rank Xerox for using their trademarked name, Tamburini changed it to "RanXerox" (1980, also in Italian, in Frigidaire). The name "Ranx" has also been used in some cases. The first time RanXerox was published in English is in the July 1983 issue of Heavy Metal. Then came many more issues of Heavy Metal, and novels, featuring RanXerox (such as RanXerox in America). The artist uses Pantone pens for his unique art style.

Richard Corben said about the character: "RanXerox is a punk, futuristic Frankenstein monster, and with the under-aged Lubna, they are a bizarre Beauty and the Beast. This artist and writer team have turned a dark mirror to the depths of our Id and we see reflected the base part of ourselves that would take what it wants with no compromise, no apology – and woe to the person who would cross us. But it is all done with a black, wry, satirical sense of humor."

Tanino Liberatore also created the artwork for the Frank Zappa album The Man from Utopia; the image of Zappa on the cover bears a strong resemblance to RanXerox.

Ranx: The Video Game was developed by Ubisoft in 1990 for DOS, Amiga, and Atari ST.

title: RanXerox


text:
User talk:David j wilkins

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, please be sure to sign your name on Talk and vote pages using four tildes (~~~~) to produce your name and the current date, or three tildes (~~~) for just your name. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! -- Francs2000 | Talk 12:22, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * How to edit a page
 * Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style
 * Merging, redirecting, and renaming pages
 * If you're ready for the complete list of Wikipedia documentation, there's also Topical index.

title: User talk:David j wilkins


text: Template:Campaignbox Second Sino-Japanese War


text:
Talk:History of the 2005 Philippine electoral crisis

Forked out the events history from the Philippine electoral crisis, 2005 article into this article.--Noypi380 12:25, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Also, regarding the Tuesday, June 8 part, there is a mistake. That date is not valid, because this year June 8 is a Wednesday, and June 7 is actually Tuesday. Can someone familiar with that particular event correct that? Which one is it? I checked my old copies of the prominent broadsheets and they commit the same mistake too. Hmmm, tsk, tsk, I am starting to doubt the papers. --Noypi380 13:57, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Verification requested/confirmed
Verified all the dates, and I am certain that all of them are accurate, except the first two (June 6 and June 8). I have no records on the day of June 6 and 8 itself. I have though some papers that were already released in July that "summarizes" the events but I doubt the papers accuracy too. Can someone verify the events that happened before June 10 (when Ong made his press conference)? --Noypi380 14:07, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


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Desmond Castle (Kinsale)

Desmond Castle (Caisleán Deasmhumhan) is a tower house located in the town of Kinsale in County Cork, Ireland.

History
The castle was built as the Customs House for Kinsale about the year 1500 by Maurice FitzGerald, 9th Earl of Desmond, following the grant of the customs of the port of Kinsale to the Earls of Desmond by King Henry VII in 1497. Presumably there must have been an earlier structure on the site as the 1st Earl was Captain of Desmond Castle.

It was used as a Customs House until 1641 when it was converted into a naval prison, following the construction of a new Customs House. The prisoners kept in the Castle were in the main French and Spanish, and the building became known locally as the "French Prison" as a result.

In January 1747, a fire broke out, killing 54 of the prisoners. In 1791, the castle was donated by James Kearney MP to the town of Kinsale, and it was subsequently used as a town gaol till 1846, and during the Irish Famine as a workhouse.

In 1938, it was taken into national government hands, and much later, was restored and opened to the public by the Office of Public Works.

Wine museum
In 1997, the International Museum of Wine, which details the links between Ireland and the wine trade, and is run by the Order of the Wine Geese, was added.

title: Desmond Castle (Kinsale)


text: User talk:194.199.4.102

title: User talk:194.199.4.102


text:
Alpine A310

The Alpine A310 is a sports car built by French manufacturer Alpine from 1971 to 1984.

History
Dieppe-based Alpine, once an independent company specialising in faster Renaults, later a Renault subsidiary, established a fine competition history with the Alpine A110 winning the 1973 Monte Carlo Rally and World Rally Championship. The successor was the Alpine A310, initially powered by tuned 17TS/Gordini four-cylinder engine, still rear-mounted. The maximum power reaches 127 PS, thanks to the use of two twin-barrel 45 DCOE Weber carburetors.

The first model of the A310, built 1971-1976, was a car with a four-cylinder engine and six headlights. Being larger, heavier, and no more powerful than its predecessor, the A310 was generally considered underpowered. The car was first shown at the 1971 Geneva Motor Show. The prototype A310 had louvres across the rear windscreen; these were not carried over to the production model. Early models had a NACA duct mounted near the window atop the left front fender, later four-cylinder cars received two, mounted closer to the front of the car. In 1976, to help flagging sales, the lower-cost A310 SX was presented. This model has a 95 PS version of the Renault 16/17's 1647 cc inline-four and simplified equipment.

The basis of the A310 was a hefty tubular steel backbone chassis, clothed in a fiberglass shell. As for the previous A110 the entire body was molded in a single piece. Like the ill-fated DeLorean, which used the same PRV powertrain, the engine was mounted longitudinally in the rear, driving forward to the wheels through a manual five-speed gearbox. The driving position was low and sporty, although the front wheelwells encroached on the occupants' feet, pointing them towards the centre of the car. The A310 was labor-intensive, having been developed for small-scale artisanal production - a car took 130 hours to build from start to finish. The front axle also came in for some criticism, although in 1974 the balljoint mountings were replaced by rubber/steel bushings (silent-blocs) which somewhat improved durability. While many components of the A310 came from the Renault parts shelf as expected, others are more surprising - the steering rack is from the Peugeot 504, while the turn signals are Simca 1301 units.

A310 V6
In 1976 the A310 was restyled by Robert Opron and fitted with the more powerful and newly developed 90-degree 2664 cc V6 PRV engine, as used in some Renaults, Volvos and Peugeots. The later V6 received a black plastic rear spoiler as well, useful for keeping the tail planted but somewhat marring the purity of the original's lines. With 150 PS on tap, the A310 PRV V6 was Renault's performance flagship capable of 220 kph and acceptable acceleration. The tail-heavy weight distribution gave handling characteristics similar to the contemporary Porsche 911. Sales did pick up, more than doubling those of the four-cylinder predecessor, but then tapered off as production continued without any updates to make it a serious Porsche competitor in the marketplace. Sales were predominantly in France, with 781 cars sold in its home market in 1979 (its best year). By 1984 less than five hundred Alpines were sold in France, while Porsche sold about 1600 in spite of industrial strikes in Germany.

Beginning with model year 1981 (in late 1980), the rear suspension was shared with the mid-engined Renault 5 Turbo. Rather than the previous three-lug wheels, the A310 also received the alloys used for the 5 Turbo, albeit without the painted elements.

In the later models (1983-1984) of the A310 a "Pack GT" which was inspired from the Group 4 A310 racing cars would be developed, it gained wheel arches and larger spoilers front and rear. A few Alpine A310 V6 Pack GT Kit Boulogne were built (27 examples), here the PRV V6 was bored out to 2.9 litres and was then further modified by Alpine, fitted with triple Weber 42DCNF carburetors that pushed power to 193 PS.

Competition
In 1973 the A310 was designated to replace the A110 in the World Rally Championship, where it saw mixed success. The A310 also had great success in French motorsport as a Group 4 car. In 1977 Guy Fréquelin (Alpine Renault A 310-V6) won the French Rally championship. In 1983 the car was moved to the Group B rally stage.

1971–1976
A310 1600 Series 1 (55 L fuel tank, 3 stud suspension, four-cylinder engine, 5-speed transmission)

title: Alpine A310


text:
Esher railway station

Esher railway station is a station on the South West Main Line operated by South Western Railway in Surrey, England. The station adjoins the north of Esher with two footpaths skirting Sandown Park Racecourse, the town's commercial area being 300 metres beyond the racecourse entrance. The station is situated between Surbiton and Hersham and is 14 mi from London Waterloo.

History
The railway arrived here in 1838. A minor request stop was immediately opened and a station built and named Ditton Marsh, being the wetter part of Ditton Common. The common marks the boundary between what was then the west of Thames Ditton and Esher. The station was opened on 21 May 1838, and the name changed to Esher and Hampton Court about 1840. It has since been renamed twice more: to Esher and Claremont in July 1844, and to Esher on 1 June 1913. It has also been shown as Esher for Claremont, or as Esher for Sandown Park in some timetables.

Amenities
The station and track is elevated above street level

A special gate on the platform opens directly onto Sandown Park racecourse.

Services
At off-peak times two trains per hour in both directions call at Esher, the termini being London Waterloo station and the larger Surrey town of Woking.

Additional trains operate during peak hours, of which at least 4 (2 in the morning rush-hour, 2 in the evening) terminate at Guildford (which also serves as the terminus for stopping trains on Sundays).

Woking is the point of change for services to longer distance destinations to the south-west (see stations below).

Former amenities
Two additional island platforms are disused and not accessible to passengers though passed by through trains.

Bus services 515 and on Sundays 715 serve the station.

Location
The station is to the west of Weston Green which falls within the Esher postal district. Esher parish is close by the station and has included the Sandown Park grounds since its establishment in the early medieval period. A footpath to the west of the station skirts Sandown Park Racecourse and leads to the Lower Green area of Esher. The town's commercial area lies 300 metres beyond the racecourse entrance, followed by West End and Claremont. The station is the closest to Esher by road. Thames Ditton railway station on the branch line to Hampton Court is closest to the eastern half of Weston Green, which lies within the Thames Ditton postal district.

In film, television, fiction and the media
Esher railway station featured on an episode of the children's TV series Little Howard's Big Question, in which the Dutch graphic and mathematical artist M. C. Escher was confused with Esher and one of his drawings mistakenly thought to be the railway station.

Notes and references

 * Notes

 * References

title: Esher railway station


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/H numbers

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete --Allen3 talk 22:13, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

H numbers
The article is either patent nonsense or original research. Markus Schmaus 12:30, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Original research, link added back from the listed site to give the ideas legitimacy, so could be construed as advertising, &/c. Dysprosia 12:53, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. I imagine the term "H number" is quite difficult to search for on Google, so I don't trust a negative result from a search like that. I would prefer to give the author a chance to justify that this is not original research. Dmharvey [[Image:User_dmharvey_sig.png]] Talk 13:17, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. The author now appears to have indicated that this is original research. Dmharvey [[Image:User_dmharvey_sig.png]] Talk 02:41, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete; I agree with Markus. Not that hard to search for "h number" with respect and I couldn't find any supporting hits. The nearest was a reference to Harshad number which appears to be quite different james gibbon  14:19, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I mean difficult in the sense that, for example, a search for "B space" is unlikely to help you work out that a B space is really just an old name for a Banach space. (Although you do get a very amusing hit at Functional Analysis). Dmharvey [[Image:User_dmharvey_sig.png]] Talk 15:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete. On that website, at http://www.hnumbers.com/hnumbers.html they refer to the Wikipedia article, and in the Wikipedia article they refer to that website. All looks very strange, and the article is badly written. No google hits for this topic. Looks like somebody pushing his/her pet math research. Oleg Alexandrov 17:07, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak keep if it can be expanded to provide context. Otherwise delete.   — J I P | Talk 17:59, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as original research, rather unoriginal name. Charles Matthews 20:48, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per Oleg Alexandrov. Dcarrano 23:02, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Oh dear, looked vaguely plausible, until one reads about H_5 on the web page. linas 18:12, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, original research, not understandable. From the website (www.hnumbers.com): "My aim is to find the Theory Of Everything through the least effort," which does not give me much confidence. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 20:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Nonsense. Defining an new non-real number as $$i=\sqrt{-1}$$ makes sense and creates a new "dimension". This article introduces $$j=\sqrt{i}$$ as if it was yet another "dimension" expansion. An ambitious reasoning but still a mistake any high school level student should not make. $$\sqrt{i}=\pm \left(1 + i \right)/\sqrt{2}$$ is just another complex number and adds no new dimension. And this is not the only incorrection. Nabla 20:17, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per nn. --Trovatore 05:37, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Whoops--I think I got the acronyms wrong; should be "per nominator". Doesn't change anything, I guess. --Trovatore 05:39, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
User talk:JamieH2005

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Battle of Bedriacum

The Battle of Bedriacum refers to two battles fought during the Year of the Four Emperors (AD 69) near the village of Bedriacum (now Calvatone), about 35 km from the town of Cremona in northern Italy. The fighting in fact took place between Bedriacum and Cremona, and the battles are sometimes called "First Cremona" and "Second Cremona".

First Battle of Bedriacum
Marcus Salvius Otho, with the support and aid of the Praetorian Guard, had his predecessor Galba murdered in January and claimed the throne. Legate Aulus Vitellius, governor of the province of Germania Inferior, had also claimed the throne earlier in the month and marched on Rome with his troops. Vitellius' forces were divided into two armies, one commanded by Aulus Caecina Alienus and the other by Fabius Valens. The Vitellian forces included legions XXI Rapax, V Alaudae, and powerful vexillationes from all the other legions stationed on the Rhine, together with a strong force of Batavian auxiliaries, totalling a force of around 70,000 men. The forces commanded by Caecina crossed the Alps by the Great St. Bernard Pass to reach northern Italy. They attacked Placentia but were repulsed by the Othonian garrison and fell back on Cremona to await the arrival of Valens' army.

Otho left Rome on March 14 and marched north to meet the challenge, leaving his brother Titianus in charge of Rome. He made his base at Brixellum. His forces included legions I Adiutrix, XIII Gemina, a forward detachment of XIIII Gemina, the Praetorian Guard, and a force of gladiators. His general staff included generals such as Gaius Suetonius Paulinus, who, as governor of Britain, had defeated Boudica eight years before but Otho decided to call his brother Titianus from Rome to act as his commander in chief.

Before Titianus arrived, one engagement had already been fought. Caecina tried to set an ambush at Locus Castorum, a village about halfway between Bedriacum and Cremona on the Via Postumia. The Othonians were warned, however, and their army marched for Locus Castorum, led by Suetonius Paulinus. The Othonians had the better of the fighting and Caecina's troops retreated to Cremona. Here they were joined by Valens' army, which had followed a longer route through Gaul.

Titanius had now joined the Othonian armies and took command. It was decided to march on Cremona to give battle, against the advice of Paulinus and other generals, who wished to wait until other legions had arrived. Otho remained at Brixellum to await the outcome. On 14 April the two armies met on the Via Postumia, nearer Cremona than Bedriacum, with the Othonian troops already tired after a long march. Some of the heaviest fighting was where Otho's I Adiutrix legion, recently raised from the marines of Classis Ravennas at Ravenna, clashed with Vitellius' veteran Rapax. The Adiutrix acquitted itself well, capturing the eagle of the 21st, though its commanding officer was killed as the 21st strove to recover it. Elsewhere on the battlefield, Otho's 13th Legion was defeated by Vitellius' Alaudae and the Adiutrix eventually gave way when a force of Batavian auxiliaries took them in the flank. According to Dio Cassius, about 40,000 men were killed in the fighting. The Othonian troops fled back to their camp in Bedriacum and the next day surrendered to the Vitellian forces and took the oath of allegiance to Vitellius.

When news of the defeat was brought to Brixellum, many of Otho's troops urged him to fight on, pointing out that more troops were on the way, but Otho chose suicide rather than cause more deaths. He had been emperor for fewer than three months; Vitellius continued his march on Rome, where he made a triumphal entry and was recognized as emperor by the Senate.

Second Battle of Bedriacum
Meanwhile, the legions stationed in the Middle East provinces of Judaea and Syria had acclaimed Vespasian as emperor. Vespasian had been given a special command in Judaea by Nero in 67 with the task of putting down the First Jewish–Roman War. He gained the support of the governor of Syria, Gaius Licinius Mucianus and a strong force drawn from the Judaean and Syrian legions marched on Rome under the command of Mucianus.

Before the eastern legions could reach Rome, the Danubian legions of the provinces of Raetia and Moesia also acclaimed Vespasian as emperor in August. Three of these legions, III Gallica, VIII Augusta, and VII Claudia had been on their way to support Otho when they heard of his defeat at the first battle of Bedriacum. They had been made to swear allegiance to Vitellius, but when they heard of Vespasian's bid for power they switched their support to him. They persuaded the other two legions, VII Galbiana and XIII Gemina to join them, which the XIII Gemina did all the more readily as they were one of the legions which had been defeated at First Bedriacum, and had been made to build amphitheatres for Valens and Caecina as punishment. Led by the commanding officer of the VII Galbiana, Marcus Antonius Primus, they marched on Rome, and having a shorter distance to march reached Italy before Mucianus' troops.

When Vitellius heard of Antonius' approach, he dispatched Caecina with a powerful army composed of XXI Rapax, V Alaudae, I Italica, and XXII Primigenia together with detachments from seven other legions and a force of auxiliaries. The first of Antonius' legions had arrived at Verona, but though urged to attack them before the remainder of the army arrived, Caecina declined to do so. Caecina had been plotting with Sextus Lucilius Bassus, commander of the Classis Ravennas, the Roman fleet at Ravenna, to switch their support to Vespasian. His troops refused to follow his lead however, and put him in chains. Valens, who had been delayed by illness, had by now set out from Rome.

Caecina's army, now without their general, advanced on Cremona. Antonius was now based at Bedriacum, and advanced towards Cremona with a force of cavalry. They encountered the vanguard of the Vitellian army between Bedriacum and Cremona on 24 October and a battle followed, with Antonius sending back to Bedriacum for the legions. Antonius' troops had the better of the fighting, and the Vitellian troops retreated to their camp outside Cremona.

Antonius' forces advanced along the Via Postumia towards Cremona. They were opposed by a powerful Vitellian army, who had been reinforced by other legions including Legion IV Macedonica, but were still without a commander as Valens had not yet arrived. By now night had fallen and the battle continued through the hours of darkness. The VII Galbiana, Antonius' own legion, suffered heavy casualties and lost its eagle for a while, though one of its centurions later sacrificed his own life to win it back. Eventually Antonius' forces began to gain the upper hand, and the turning point came when dawn broke. Antonius' III Gallica had served in Syria for many years and while there had adopted a local custom. As the sun rose, they saluted it with cheers; this was misinterpreted by the Vitellian forces, who thought that they were greeting reinforcements from the east and lost heart. The Vitellian forces were driven back into their camp, which was taken by Antonius' forces. Antonius then attacked Cremona itself, which surrendered. Cremona was sacked and then burned by the victorious troops over the course of four days; many residents were raped, murdered and/or robbed. Antonius was embarrassed by the episode and forbade the keeping of Cremonans as slaves, resulting in many being murdered by their captors to evade punishment.

Antonius continued to Rome, where Vitellius was taken prisoner and shortly afterwards killed. The way was thus cleared for Vespasian to ascend the throne near the end of this bloody year of crisis.

Other sources

 * The Encyclopedia of Military History: From 3500 B.C. to the Present. (2nd Revised Edition 1986), R. Ernest Dupuy and Trevor N. Dupuy. pp. 127–128
 * P.A.L. Greenhalgh The Year of the Four Emperors (Weidenfeld and Nicolson,1975)
 * Michael Grant The Twelve Caesars (Weidenfeld and Nicolson,1975)

title: Battle of Bedriacum


text:
User talk:Mark halls

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The Idea of North

The Idea of North are an Australian a cappella vocal ensemble founded in Canberra in 1993, by Nick Begbie (tenor), Meg Corson (alto), Trish Delaney-Brown (soprano) and Andrew Piper (bass). Still active in 2023, but touring less frequently since the Covid-19 pandemic, The Idea of North has had a number of personnel changes since their formation, with Nick Begbie the only remaining original member.

The group is the only a cappella outfit ever to have won two ARIAs (Australian Recording Industry Association awards), both in the Best Jazz Album category at the ARIA Music Awards of 2010 for Feels Like Spring (collaboration with James Morrison) and again in 2013 for Smile, as well as three other ARIA nominations.

1993-1999: formation and debut album
The Idea of North was formed in Canberra 1993 by Nick Begbie (tenor), Meg Corson (alto), Trish Delaney-Brown (soprano) and Andrew Piper (bass). Three of the members were students at the Canberra School of Music (CSM) of Australian National University (ANU), while Nick was studying a non-music degree at the ANU but singing with the other three extra-curricularly in the CSM's vocal jazz ensemble, led by performer and jazz vocal educator Gery Scott. These four formed their own quartet from the larger ensemble, eventually adopting their name from The Idea of North (1967), a radio documentary by Canadian classical pianist, Glenn Gould. The group is generally described as a jazz quartet, but they also delve regularly into the pop, R&B, classical, folk, soul and gospel genres. Over the years, the individual members of the group have written, arranged and performed some original music, but largely tackle re-imaginings of jazz standards and other music by a huge variety of artists, including but not limited to The Beatles, Tim Minchin, Sting, Stevie Wonder, James Taylor, The Muppets, Joni Mitchell, Randy Newman, ABBA, The Bee Gees, Vulfpeck and John Mayer.

In 1997 they recorded their debut album, The Idea of North, with Ra Khan in the recording booth at the CSM recording studios. The group members arranged cover versions of both jazz standards, gospel music, traditional songs and more contemporary material. Instrumentation was provided by Greg Stott on congas and percussion, Duncan Brown on bass and Piper on flugelhorn on "My Funny Valentine", although the album was majority a cappella.

2000-2005: The Sum of Us, Here & Now and Evidence
The Idea of North's second album, The Sum of Us was released in October 2001, its track, "Mas Que Nada", features Morrison on trombone and another track, "Fragile", showcases Don Burrows on flute. Delaney-Brown wrote two tracks, "Neat Surprise" and "Gotta Move On", while "Singin a Capella" was co-written by Begbie and Piper and "Two Sides to the Story" was written by Piper. It was co-produced by the group's members and recorded by David Hemming at Tiger Studios, Sydney for Magnetic Records. It reached No. 15 on the ARIA Jazz & Blues Albums chart.

In March 2002 Corson was replaced as alto in the group by Naomi Crellin (ex-Pure Harmony & ex-Jelelah), an Adelaide Girl's Choir alumni and a graduate from University of Adelaide's Elder Conservatorium. Crellin's previous group, Pure Harmony, was an a cappella quartet formed in 1992 at Marryatville High School, Adelaide with fellow students Sally Cameron, Joy Hague and Kate Boumelha.

The Idea of North's third album, Here & Now, was released in October 2003 via ABC Jazz, which contained re-recordings of their previous material plus two new tracks. Recorded by the line-up of Begbie, Crellin, Delaney-Brown and Piper at Australian Broadcasting Corporation's studio 227, Sydney, it reached No. 13 on the ARIA Hitseekers Albums Chart and No. 8 on the ARIA Jazz & Blues Albums chart.

San Francisco-based, Contemporary A Cappella Society, present the Contemporary A Cappella Recording Awards. In 2004 the Idea of North were runners up for Artist of the Year.

In May 2004, The Idea of North's released Evidence, featuring original songs from Delaney-Brown and arrangements by Crellin, Delaney-Brown, Morrison and Piper, as well as guest appearances by Morrison and Melbourne-based Australian drummer David Jones. The group also recorded and included on Evidence an arrangement of Horace Silver's Sister Sadie written especially for them by long-time fan and renowned Swedish-Australian musicologist and music theorist Bengt-Olov Palmqvist. Evidence peaked at No. 12 on the ARIA Jazz & Blues Albums chart. At the 2005 Contemporary A Cappella Recording Awards they won best jazz album and best jazz song for "Rachel".

2006-2009: The Gospel Project & Live at the Powerhouse
In April 2006, The Idea of North released The Gospel Project, and featured prayers and three tracks, "Let It Ring", "Help Us" and "The Truth" co-written by Begbie and Michael Leunig. Aside from vocals by Begbie, Crellin, Delaney-Brown and Piper four of the recordings included instrumentals: Duncan Brown on bass guitar, Bill Risby on keyboards and Gordon Rytmeister on drums. During 2006 they had appeared at festivals in Germany, Japan, Malaysia and South Korea. In October they toured Australia to promote the album with the Gospel Project Band.

On 2 July 2007 they issued their first live album, Live at the Powerhouse, both on CD and as a DVD. Barry O'Sullivan of All About Jazz described how the "a capella vocal ensemble just swings and swings with impeccable harmonies and an understanding of each others' vocal parts. The breadth of the group's performance is its most remarkable characteristic, never stopping in offering something new with tracks." The album was recorded at the Brisbane Powerhouse on 4 June 2006 with the DVD directed and edited by Adam Sébire, while the audio was recorded by David Hemming and produced by the group.

Sally Cameron (ex-Pure Harmony, South Australian Police Band) joined as soprano in February 2007 to replace Delaney-Brown, who left to start her family. The group farewelled Delaney-Brown, formally, in a one-off concert at The Basement, Sydney in June 2008. She later became a member of Sonic Mayhem Orchestra and then James Valentine Quartet before establishing the Trish Delaney-Brown Quintet, and then in 2021 debuting with her new female vocal trio, Lhyra.

2010-2011: Feels Like Spring & Extraordinary Tale
On 10 April 2010, The group released their sixth studio album, Feels Like Spring which, another collaboration with Australian jazz icon James Morrison, peaked at No. 3 on the ARIA Jazz & Blues Albums chart and spent 33 weeks (non-consecutive) in the top 20 until February 2011. In the studio, non-vocal instrumentation was supplied by: Ian Cooper on strings; Sandro Constatino on viola; Alexandra D'ella on violin; Phillip Hartl on violin; Morrison on double bass, flugelhorn, horn arrangements, piano, saxophone, trombone and trumpet; James Muller on guitar; Gordon Rytmeister on drums; Sunil de Silva on percussion; Adrian Wallis on cello; and Jonathan Zwartz on double bass. It was recorded at James Morrison Studios and co-produced by the group and Morrison.

At the ARIA Music Awards of 2010 Idea of North and James Morrison won the ARIA Award for Best Jazz Album for Feels Like Spring.

In July 2011, the group released Extraordinary Tale. At the ARIA Music Awards of 2011 the recording was nominated for Best Jazz Album. For this entirely a cappella recording Begbie, Cameron, Crellin and Piper provided their usual four part harmony with Piper adding some vocal percussion. Extraordinary Tale peaked at No. 1 on the ARIA Jazz & Blues Albums, No. 5 on the Hitseekers Albums and No. 93 on the Top 100 Physical Albums charts. Also in late 2011 Crellin took maternity leave, her alto role covered by Joy Hague (ex-Pure Harmony) with Crellin returning in early 2012. Hague resumed her work as a high school music teacher although she filled in as deputy alto in the Idea of North as required thereafter.

2012-2014: This Christmas and Smile
The quartet recorded their eighth studio album, This Christmas, which was released on 29 October 2012. The album includes Morrison guesting on trombone on two tracks and Hague as alto on three tracks. It was rumoured to have been recorded in several locations, including the James Morrison Studios in Warriewood, Sydney, the home studio of Sydney drummer Gordon Rytmeister (who also appears on the album), and a friend's single-car garage. The album peaked at No. 80 on the ARIA Albums, No. 2 on the Hitseekers Albums and No. 2 on the Jazz & Blues Albums charts.

The quartet's ninth studio album, Smile, was released on 12 August 2013 which peaked at No. 86 on the ARIA Albums, No. 4 on the Hitseekers Albums and No. 2 on the Jazz & Blues Albums charts.

At the ARIA Music Awards of 2013 the Idea of North won the ARIA Award for Best Jazz Album for a second time with Smile.

In November 2014, the Idea of North released a compilation album, Anthology, which peaked at No. 5 on the Jazz & Blues Albums charts.

2015-2019: Ballads, Hush 16, A World of Christmas and Brick By Brick
In 2015, due to some vocal health issues, a replacement tenor was sourced to cover Nick's part for The Idea of North's 2015 Australian Christmas Tour. Ed Fairlie, a jazz trumpeter, singer and educator from Melbourne auditioned and was taken on for the tour, however because the adverse effects of Nick's health issues only affected his upper register, Naomi rearranged the tour repertoire to include a new baritone part that Nick learnt alongside Ed's inclusion, and it became the first ever 5-part (quintet) tour The Idea of North had ever undertaken.

From 2016, Japanese vocal percussionist Kaichiro Kitamura was a session and touring member and featured on three tracks on their tenth studio album, Ballads, which was released on 18 April 2016. The album was a collaborative affair, not only with Kai's involvement, but Ed Fairlie also arranged a song ('My One And Only Love') for the group's 2016 album 'Ballads' and sang with the group on the recording of that song. 'Ballads' has a fifth quintet track in a song featuring Australia jazz vocalist Kristin Berardi on a Naomi Crellin-arranged track that Kristin wrote called 'Ode to Ollie'. The album reached No. 3 on the Hitseekers Albums and No. 2 on the Jazz & Blues Albums charts.

Several years prior to 2016, The Hush Foundation, (a Melbourne health care charity) had approached The Idea of North and asked them to record an album of original music for the HUSH program – but the group had been too busy. It was suggested that the album go ahead, but with collaborators. HUSH 16: A Piece Of Quiet was born, through collaborations between The Idea of North, Israeli-Australian singer-songwriter Lior and Australian composer and pianist Elena Kats-Chernin. The tracks on the album were based on conversations had with kids - about their views of the world, family life, school life, illness, health and wellbeing - and the kids' stories and views were used as a basis for the lyrics and themes on many of the album's tracks. It was The Idea of North's first kid's album project, and was nominated for 'Best Children's Album' at the 2017 ARIA Awards.

2016 was a busy year for The Idea of North, who were also approached by long time collaborator and label ABC Music in 2016 and asked to record a Christmas Album with the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra for the ABC Classics label ( 'A World of Christmas'). The songs were almost all arranged by Naomi Crellin and much of the orchestration was by Australian composer and orchestrator Joseph Twist. The album was recorded live in Melbourne, and with his specialty in jazz percussion, Kaichiro Kitamura was the drummer (vocally) for the included jazz rhythm section.

In February 2017, Cameron and Piper both left the group; Piper was replaced on bass by Adelaide jazz vocalist, saxophonist and educator Luke Thompson, while Cameron's temporary replacements were Delaney-Brown and Jo Lawry prior to Emma Rule becoming the group's new permanent soprano in September 2017. Kaichiro Kitamura became a permanent member of the group in May 2017, and for the first time in its history, The Idea of North was officially a quintet.

In November 2018, the group self-recorded and self-released its 14th and first fully 5-part album Brick By Brick, with the same lineup that has persisted since then: Nick Begbie; Naomi Crellin; Kaichiro Kitamura; Emma Rule and Luke Thompson.

2020-present: The Covid-19 Pandemic
Before the Covid-19 pandemic set it worldwide, The Idea of North played their last show to a full house at the Adelaide Fringe Festival, Australia. Due to the increasing concern over the pandemic, growing rates of infection and escalating frequency of lock-downs, The Idea of North went into hiatus. With members living in three different states of Australia and one member in Japan, rehearsing became unviable, and the pandemic saw live presentation of the arts in Australia grind to a shuddering halt. For periods throughout 2020-2022, singing in group was deemed illegal (in Australia), so the viability of working as a singing group was severely diminished. In 2023, following a significant decrease in infections worldwide, as well as the post-pandemic re-opening of Japan in Oct 2022, The Idea of North re-formed to begin touring again.

Current

 * Tenor: Nick Begbie (1993–present)
 * Soprano: Emma Rule (2018–present)
 * Alto: Naomi Crellin (2002–11, 2012–present)
 * Bass: Luke Thompson (2017–present)
 * Baritone & Vocal percussion: Kaichiro Kitamura (2017–present)
 * Sound Engineer: Grant Whitehead (2016–present)

Touring, studio and session

 * Tenor: Ed Fairlie (2015-2016)
 * Vocal percussion: Kaichiro Kitamura (2016)

 * Live sound: David O'Rourke (1994–2007), Tod Deeley (2007–2016), Michael Honey (casual 2018–present), Kath Burrows (casual 2015–present), Grant Whitehead (2016-present)
 * Studio sound: Ra Khan (1996), David Hemming (2001–2007), Tod Deeley (2007–2016), Kath Burrows (2017–2019), Grant Whitehead (2016-present)

Former

 * Alto: Meg Corson (1993–2002)
 * Bass: Andrew Piper (1993–2017)
 * Alto: Joy Hague (2011–12)
 * Soprano: Sally Cameron (2007–2017), Trish Delaney-Brown (1993–2007, 2017), Jo Lawry (2017)

ARIA Awards
The ARIA Music Awards are presented annually since 1987 by the Australian Recording Industry Association (ARIA). The Idea of North has won one award from four nominations.

Ref.
 * 2010
 * Feels Like Spring (with James Morrison)
 * rowspan="4"| Best Jazz Album
 * Won
 * 2011
 * Extraordinary Tale
 * Nominated
 * 2013
 * Smile
 * Won
 * 2016
 * Ballads
 * Nominated
 * 2017
 * A Piece of Quiet (The Hush Collection, Vol. 16) (with Lior and Elena Kats-Chernin)
 * Best Children's Album
 * Nominated
 * }
 * 2017
 * A Piece of Quiet (The Hush Collection, Vol. 16) (with Lior and Elena Kats-Chernin)
 * Best Children's Album
 * Nominated
 * }

CARA Awards
Since 1992, the annual Contemporary A Cappella Recording Awards (CARAs) recognise the best recorded a cappella and aim to support this burgeoning culture of instrument-less enthusiasts.

 * rowspan="2"| 2005
 * Evidence
 * Best Jazz Album
 * Won
 * "Rachel"
 * Best Jazz Song
 * Won
 * 2010
 * rowspan="3" | The Idea of North
 * rowspan="3" | Favourite Oceanic Group
 * Won
 * 2011
 * Won
 * 2013
 * Won
 * }
 * Won
 * 2013
 * Won
 * }
 * }

 * Note:wins only

title: The Idea of North