text:
Talk:For Whom the Bell Tolls

Fascist?
The article describes the forces of Franco as "fascist". Although this is the word used in a lot of literature from the time, it is an inaccurate description. I have changed it to the much better and more applicable term "nationalist".89.242.215.180 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:17, 16 October 2010 (UTC).

Hello,

the article keeps referring to "the fascists" in the Plot Summary section. Suggest to have it changed to "the nationalists" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.121.98.7 (talk) 11:54, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Clean Up
I have started to clean up this article. It is still a major mess, but I have removed the worst of the non-sequitors, illiteracy, original research, and random speculative statements. So far, I have:
 * amplified and corrected the language and narrative style section;
 * changed the headings structure slightly
 * cleaned up the "popular culture" references section (which were confusing the Donne with the novel), cleaned up the section on actual events;
 * added in the proper links & improved the historical references to the Spanish Civil War.
 * cleaned up the lead

The plot outline, imagery, etc... still need to be reworked to an encyclopedic standard. This still reads too much like a student essay. To do:
 * publication history
 * critical reception
 * improve text sourcing/correct note format
 * rewrite plot summary
 * change character list
 * rewrite section on main themes and imagery Eusebeus 11:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

 * imo, John Donne should be mentioned earlier in the article, not in the "References in popular culture" section, as Donne PREDATES Hemingway. --Bobbozzo (talk) 07:07, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

too many links
Under 'Main Themes' Every word is linked. This should be corrected. 134.106.199.5 13:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Sources?
Is this a summary of critical literature, or someone's original critical reading of the novel? It seems to alternate between the two, sometimes reading like a paper, making a claim and supporting it with a quotation from the novel, and then there will be parts like-

"Some have said that it was a signal of him giving in to the demands of Hollywood directors who wanted books that can be easily used as scripts, while others consider it a signal of him disassociating himself from the protagonist, maybe because of superstition (it brings bad luck to write about one's own end), but more likely because of his inner struggle that will be explained later (Pablo )."

-which reads like secondary research (maybe that is why it's needlessly oblique?).

I'd prefer if whoever wrote the majority of this content could clean it up his/herself, since (s)he'd know where things came from, but in the meantime I'll work on putting together a more encyclopedic, less close-reading, style article.--Hal 19:37, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Question about language in the book
My copy of the book has frequent passages along the lines of "I unprintable in the milk of your mothers." Was the original novel self-censored in this fashion or is my copy a bowlderized version? Just curious.

 * Yes, the original is like that. It is quite typical of Hemingway's writing. (Themusicinmyhead 07:07, 24 November 2005 (UTC))

 * I assume that it's also a function of the times. Publishers in the 1940s might have refused to print a book with that much profanity in it had Hemingway not substituted for the expletives. | Klaw Talk 17:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Hemingway did this partly due to the times and partly because he believed that any translation of spanish to english obscenities would lose their effect, he states this in an interview.

Donne quote
The Donne quote was incomplete and inconsistently formatted. I changed it to a transcription in modern English, since attempts to reproduce the original "faithfully" without using photographs are probably doomed to failure. One example of trying to reproduce the original (different from what the article had) is No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. Considering that spelling and formatting weren't quite as standardized in 1624 as they are now, there is probably little to gain from trying to be "exact" about this. 82.92.119.11 22:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, after comparing two versions of the book (one very old one and a newer one), the quotes at the beginning were the same (what you have there). I will change it; if someone wants to fix it they can change it back.Ernest3.141 (talk) 02:26, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Donne wrote in Modern English. ..

Introductory Material
I've reorganized the introductory material so that it's more consistent with other Wiki articles, and in a way which I think makes more logical sense. More specifically, I simply moved the material under "Plot Introduction" and moved it to the beginning of the article, after the introductory sentence -- there aren't any plot spoilers here so there should't be any problems. --Todeswalzer 23:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

How is "death" a theme!?

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Irony
I find the sentence "The view of suicide of Robert Jordan as a selfish act is ironic, given that Hemingway took his own life twenty-one years later." to be an over-symplistic analysis of both hemmingways writing and his own life. It is plainly not ironic considering that the character, and hemmingway as the writer of the character, fully understood the selfishness of the act but also,and most importantly, fully understood the reasons why a person might be led to this ultimate act. No irony is present in either the traditional of correct forms, Hemmingway did not foresee his own death by suicide and therefore no irony was meant (applying irony to a text years after it was writen is bad form) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.201.68 (talk) 04:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement of irony has been removed. 68.205.147.98 (talk) 16:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:ErnestHemmingway ForWhomTheBellTolls.jpg
Image:ErnestHemmingway ForWhomTheBellTolls.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Popular References
I have to questions some of the entries in the "References in Popular Culture" section. Hemingway didn't invent the phrase, so any use of it can't definitively be a reference to the book. It's just a handy metaphor for death. ASWilson 03:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Possible Reference to Bombing of Guernica?
At the beginning of Chapter 8, several paragraphs note an extensive force of German Heinkel bombers, such as the ones used in Guernica, since the story also takes place around the months in which the Guernica attack occurred, could this be a reference to that? -Black Mage- 00:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Original research
It would seem as if it were written for a class and just pasted here, at first glance. Where are the references for this article? Much of the materials from when this article was created back in 2002 still seem to be intact, but the only references are to the book itself, and to a version which no one seems to know. For example: "At the time the novel was published, it seemed as though he separated the narrator from the protagonist to become what he had always wanted to be: A big, omniscient and ubiquitous daddy who tells all the stories and who has everything under control." Okay, according to what reputable source? This is a mess of an encyclopedia article. --Tom (talk - email) 03:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree. I think the best thing to do is to just delete all the OR sections until sources can be found. --S.dedalus 00:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I dunno what this means
Quote: "A third-person selective-omniscient narrator direct conversations between the characters, and by extensive back-and-forth mental conversations within the mind of Robert Jordan." Perhaps someone could translate this into English? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PiCo (talk • contribs).

Regarding Robert Jordan
there is a line under references in popular culture that states

The late James Oliver Rigney Jr. (better known as Robert Jordan), the author of the popular "Wheel of Time" saga, dirived his pen name from the main character of For Whom the Bell Tolls.

however, look at the Robert Jordan page. he apparently has clearly stated that the above is not the case. I'll leave the quote there for now because im too lazy to verify it, but maybe someone should check and if valid remove the Robert Jordan section from thsi pages popular culture section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.149.112.34 (talk) 06:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Too negative?
Although this article seems to cover all the important areas, I do feel that the tone of the piece is too negative consering the reputation of this book as one of the greatest of the century.

It seems that a few negative comments have been given more weight than they deserve. Especially here:

"Since its publication, the prose style and dialogue in Hemingway's novel has been the source of controversy and fairly negative critical reaction." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.195.78.21 (talk) 15:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I put that in based on the contemporary reviews garnered by the novel, one of (the most important of) which is provided as an example. The article simply reflects the reality of the critical reception and is not a POV statement. Eusebeus 16:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I see the citation, but that reviewer is talking rubbish. Criticisng this book for having "a strange atmosphere of literary medievalism" and for using workds like "thou". It's like criticism Star Wars for being unrealistic. I just don't think this opinion comes anywhere near to reflecting the thousands of great reviews and the fact it is heralded as a classic. It's POV of the reviewer and not reflective of the general status of this book. And what's more, it's a very silly POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.195.78.21 (talk) 17:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * lol. The reviewer is Edmund Wilson! Anyway, the point is to note the contemporary critical reaction and I think that this is a fair portrayal (see also the Pulitzer deliberations). If you can marshal evidence to the contrary, I look forward to seeing it, but i don't think it's POV to provide the critical reception, nor does such reception detract from its status as a literary landmark. I think you are confusing the historical context of its critical reception with an implied value judgment. Eusebeus (talk) 20:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:ErnestHemmingway ForWhomTheBellTolls.jpg
Image:ErnestHemmingway ForWhomTheBellTolls.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

"Widely considered to be his greatest work"
I removed the line that this novel is "widely considered to be his greatest work" (that's actually a paraphrase, not a direct quote of the article). I don't know how this statement could be justified without clear POV problems. If Hemingway was an otherwise mediocre or bad writer and this was his one good book, then maybe--just maybe--that statement could stand, but since he also wrote The Sun Also Rises, The Old Man and the Sea, Farewell to Arms, etc. it hardly seems like an unambiguous claim, particularly as it isn't attributed to anyone (not that that would likely matter, as one could easily find quotes saying the same thing about each of the other novels listed). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.81.250.225 (talk) 20:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It is a major work, however I agree that modification is probably the better course to take. I had questions of my own about the claim...I modified the statement. Modernist (talk) 20:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway project? taskforce?
I am interested in starting am Ernest Hemingway project or taskforce to improve content related to his life and works, and have proposed the project at WikiProject_Council/Proposals. Please share your thoughts there! kilbad (talk) 19:53, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with your comments. As a historian and keen student of the SCW and a fluent Spanish speaker, this novel does not deserve to be considered one of his best works nor the definitive novel of the SCW. Quite frankly, without going into too much detail, after a good, movie-useful opening it is BORING, probably the greatest insult that could be hurled at the would be writer who was a far better journalist and short story writer than he was as a novelist. The transliteration of Spanish vernacular is nauseating: he could have left those comments in Spanish and let those who know understand. His characters purport to be a cross section of Spanish society; the image that remains is a bunch of foul-mouthed brigands, some too stupid to feel any sympathy for. The only saving grace in this novel is the story within a story, that of Andrés and the maniacal André Marty. He got that guy alright; the Spanish used to laugh at him, you know that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.158.98.211 (talk) 23:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Gustavo Durán
Could you link to Gustavo Durán if relevant? --Error (talk) 22:05, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Reference
Team Fortress 2 achievement named "For Whom the Shell Trolls". Is it important enough to add to "References in popular culture"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.27.92.106 (talk) 23:05, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I was just over at the Wiki site on Sun Valley and it states that Hemingway finished writing "For Whom The Bell Tolls" in Suite 206 at the Sun Valley Lodge in 1939. Hemingway fans might like to know this for when they vacation there. I wonder if Suite 206 is constantly booked (pun intended)?Silver Bayonet (talk) 06:46, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Trivia
To clarify: There was some minor back and forth on the "trivia" tag I put in the popular culture section. The point here is that lists of pop culture references have been deemed inappropriate and non-encyclopedia. Though many editors enjoy adding misc pop culture reference lists, they really do nothing but trivialize the topic. Mind you, an actual discussion about how the book has influenced popular culture would be a very valuable thing to add. But that's not what is there now.

--Mcorazao (talk) 22:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

There are standards for this list, which you can see when you open it for editing. People haven't always been following them, which is why I keep removing things from the list when I remove your tag. But it is not a list of miscellaneous trivia.

I removed the tag a second time on the grounds that, without anything on this talk page indicating an issue, there was no issue to address. But when I came here to complain about that, I saw that you had added this. So I will go back and replace the tag now, even though I do not consider it appropriate for the short, focussed list that we have at the article.

—Toby Bartels (talk) 01:13, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I reorganised the section a bit, which hopefully makes it work better. —Toby Bartels (talk) 02:16, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Concur with the trivia tag. Please incorporate it into the article. moreno oso (talk) 02:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea how one would incorporate this section into the rest of the article; it stands on its own. However, if anybody wishes to prove me wrong by example, then please do! —Toby Bartels (talk) 17:29, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Characters  Remove all  passages that refer to Robert Jordan's fate dead or alive.  Let Hemingway tell that story!
Bold text — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:E:8700:33F:F9F3:F8D:791A:461E (talk) 15:06, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Modernize the Donne quote?
I think the language should be modernized, and the archaic italic removed, which would make the quote more accessible.

Also, I recommend it be divided into verses, as is frequently done today: see https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/no-man-is-an-island/ and http://www.mensaforkids.org/MFK2/assets/File/Read/MFK-Poetry-1.pdf and many others. This was how it was in my high school English book in which I was first exposed to it. The original is prose, but many things we would print in verses were printed as prose in early books. (Saved paper, which was expensive, rag paper.)

Anyone have any problem with this? deisenbe (talk) 14:57, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

 * Well, in Hemingway's book, this is how it appears. So it seems to me that it should stay as is. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:09, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Mention of the International Brigades in intro
This article's opening paragraph has always described Robert Jordan as belonging to the International Brigades. I don't recall that ever actually being established in the book, and I suspect it was written by someone who assumed that "International Brigades" was basically just an interchangeable term with "foreign volunteers for the Republic". I've never objected to it, though, because Jordan's good standing with the Soviet military advisors does indeed argue in favour of him being with the Brigades, which were a Communist-led formation. But recently the sentence has been changed to state that Pablo's entire band are part of the International Brigades, which isn't supported by the book at all—Pablo's people are all Spanish and appear to be entirely outside the Republic's military hierarchy. I'm going to describe Jordan as a foreign volunteer in the Spanish Civil War, because our description of a text should be limited to what it actually says or what secondary critical sources have read into it, not what we've read into it ourselves. However, if I'm misremembering the text, or if there are reliable sources that describe Jordan as being with the International Brigades, or even if it's just really important to someone that he be described as a Brigader, I won't object to them being mentioned again. Just as long as they're not being associated with Pablo's guerrillas. Binabik80 (talk) 21:41, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Intentional irony
This irony is actually in the book and is intended. Jordan sees the irony in that the Spanish side he is assisting are "The Republicans" and the fact that his Amercan ancestors were also styled as being " Republicans" even though the two groups meant could hardly have been more dissimilar in ideology. Someone should find a reference work which is worthy of being considered as a reliable source stating this and then refer to it in the text. It is an important point. 2600:1004:B11E:B576:0:57:CAB7:C201 (talk) 18:58, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

El Sordo
I believe the text of this article incorrectly stated that Sordo's band conducted a raid supporting Jordan, which then leads to Sordo's band being attacked and annihilated. In fact, Sordo's band went horse stealing in a snow storm leading the fascists to track the band to their mountain hiding place. The horse stealing raid was unrelated to Jordan's mission to blow the bridge. 96.237.61.162 (talk) 02:19, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:For Whom the Bell Tolls


text:
Urgeiriça

Urgeiriça is a village in northern Portugal near the town of Viseu. It is part of the civil parish of Canas de Senhorim, in the municipality of Nelas.

Small uranium mines and a processing plant are located at this village. Radium mined during the early years of this site supplied Madame Curie. During World War II, control of the uranium resources was a source of concern for the dueling countries. Many countries have purchased uranium mined and then processed into yellowcake from this site including Iraq in 1980.

The working conditions were particularly harsh, with 9-hour days in a row in dreadful humid conditions, where workers breathed in dust, in addition to the suspended radioactive particles that could be present, as well as radon gas. In addition, sulphuric acid was used in the mines.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Urgeiriça


text:
National Beta Club

The National Beta Club (often called "Beta Club" or simply "Beta") is an organization for 4th through 12th grade students in the United States. Its purpose is "to promote the ideals of academic achievement, character, leadership and service among elementary and secondary school students.". Headquartered in Spartanburg, South Carolina, the organization has more than 8,750 clubs nationally and internationally.

History and description
Beta is an academic honors program with a strong emphasis on leadership and community service. It was founded in 1934 by Dr. John W. Harris, a Wofford College professor. Its motto is "Let Us Lead By Serving Others." Traditionally, students are awarded membership based on their grades (GPA), or test scores and character traits. Each individual school chooses what items they will look at for their chapter's member qualifications.

The Junior Division of The National Beta Club, begun in 1961, is for students in 4th through 8th grade, divided into Division I (grades 4-5) and Division II (grades 6-8). The Senior Division of Beta is for 9th through 12th graders. There are more than 500,000 active Betas in the Senior and Junior divisions and over 7 million alumni.

Conventions
Every year students on the Senior level compete in academic and talent competitions such as speech, Quiz Bowl, creative writing, English, math, science, social studies, spelling, group talent, special talent, oratory and character skits. On the junior level, students can participate in science, social studies, language arts, spelling, math, visual and performing arts, arts and crafts, poetry, T-shirt design, banner, scrapbook, essay, living literature, and songfest and speech competitions. In order to compete at the national level, a participant must place at the state level. This also includes those candidates running for office. The first National Beta Club convention was held in June 1981, at the Sheraton Twin Towers in Orlando, Florida. Each year there is a new theme, and a new site for the National Convention.

State conventions are a bit different from the national conventions. State conventions are held by the state sponsor and the state sponsor elect, which are elected to the position by other sponsors from the state. The state has the authority to create or deny competitions from happening in their own state. The Junior Convention hosts similar competitions except for state office. At the Senior level, there are three positions; at the Junior level, there are five.

States that host state conventions: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Mississippi, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, and West Virginia.

Convention Themes & Locations:

 * 1) 2011–2012 Greensboro, North Carolina
 * 2) 2012–2013 The Heart of Beta Mobile, Alabama
 * 3) 2013–2014 Making History With Beta Richmond, Virginia
 * 4) 2014–2015 Betas, Rockin' the country Nashville, Tennessee
 * 5) 2015–2016 Let the Beta Times Roll New Orleans, Louisiana
 * 6) 2016–2017 Above and Beyond Orlando, Florida
 * 7) 2017–2018 Beta on My Mind Savannah, Georgia
 * 8) 2018–2019 Betas Fueling the Future Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
 * 9) 2019–2020 Beta As Far As You Can See Fort Worth, Texas
 * 10) 2020–2021 It All Began with Beta Orlando, Florida
 * 11) 2021–2022 Beta Together Nashville, Tennessee
 * 12) 2022–2023 Power of Beta  Louisville, Kentucky
 * 13) 2023-2024 A Voyage of Adventure  Savannah, Georgia

Prominent Beta alumni

 * Bill Clinton, 42nd President of the United States
 * Millard Fuller, Habitat for Humanity founder
 * Jake Delhomme, professional football athlete
 * Ericka Dunlap, Miss America 2004
 * Heather French, Miss America 2000
 * Diane Sawyer, television journalist
 * Herschel Walker, professional football athlete
 * Trisha Yearwood, country musician
 * Kevin Durant, professional basketball player, actor
 * Cam Newton, professional football player
 * Larriuna Shell, professional dancer
 * Scotty McCreery, country musician
 * Trevor Bayne, NASCAR driver
 * Justin Timberlake, American singer-songwriter
 * Destin Sandlin, YouTube science communicator

title: National Beta Club


text:
International Boundary and Water Commission

The International Boundary and Water Commission (IBWC, Comisión Internacional de Límites y Aguas, CILA) is an international body created by the United States and Mexico in 1889 to apply the rules for determining the location of their international boundary when meandering rivers transferred tracts of land from one bank to the other, as established under the Convention of November 12, 1884.

The organization was created as the International Boundary Commission by the Convention of 1889 between the United States and Mexico. It was given its present name under the 1944 Treaty relating to the Utilization of Waters of the Colorado and Tijuana Rivers and of the Rio Grande. Under these agreements, the IBWC has a U.S. section and a Mexican section, headquartered in the adjoining cities of El Paso, Texas, and Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua. The U.S. section is administered by the Department of State, and the Mexican part by the Secretariat of Foreign Relations.

Administration
Some of the rights and obligations administered by the IBWC include:
 * Distribution between the two countries of the waters of the Rio Grande and of the Colorado River
 * Regulation and conservation of the waters of the Rio Grande for their use by the two countries by joint construction, operation, and maintenance of international storage dams and reservoirs and plants for generating hydroelectric energy at the dams
 * Protection of lands along the river from floods by levee and floodway projects
 * Solution of border sanitation and other border water quality problems
 * Preservation of the Rio Grande and Colorado River as the international boundary
 * Demarcation of the land boundary

The U.S. and Mexican commissioners meet at least weekly, alternating the place of meetings, and are in almost daily contact with one another. Each section maintains its own engineering staff, a secretary, and such legal advisers and other assistants as it deems necessary.

Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo
The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo of 2 February 1848 fixed the international boundary between El Paso–Ciudad Juárez and the Gulf of Mexico. The Gadsden Purchase Treaty of 30 December 1853 extended the southern boundary of New Mexico and Arizona southwards to enable the United States to construct a railroad to the west coast along a southern route and to resolve a question arising from the 1848 Treaty as to the location of the southern boundary of New Mexico. Temporary commissions were formed by these boundary treaties to perform the first joint mission of the governments of the United States and Mexico, which was to survey and demarcate the boundary on the ground in accordance with the treaties. Another temporary commission was created by the 1852 Boundary Convention (29 July), which surveyed and increased the number of monuments marking the land boundary westward from El Paso and Ciudad Juárez. As settlements sprang up along the boundary rivers and the adjoining lands began to be developed for agriculture in the late 19th century, questions arose as to the location of the boundary when the rivers changed their course and transferred tracts of land from one side of the river to the other. The two governments, under the 1884 Border Convention (12 November), adopted certain rules designed to deal with such questions.

1889 Border Convention
By the 1889 Border Convention (1 March), the two governments created the International Boundary Commission (IBC), to consist of a United States section and a Mexican section. The IBC was charged with the application of the rules of the 1884 Convention, for the settlement of questions arising as to the location of the boundary when the rivers changed their course. That convention was modified by the Banco Convention of 20 March 1905 to retain the Rio Grande and the Colorado River as the boundary.

1906 Boundary Waters Convention
The 1906 Boundary Waters Convention (21 May) provided for the distribution between the United States and Mexico of the waters of the Rio Grande above Fort Quitman, Texas, for the 143-km (89-mile) international boundary reach of the Rio Grande through the El Paso–Juárez Valley. This convention allotted to Mexico 60000 acre.ft annually of the waters of the Rio Grande to be delivered in accordance with a monthly schedule at the headgate to Mexico's Acequia Madre just above Ciudad Juárez. To facilitate such deliveries, the United States constructed, at its expense, the Elephant Butte Dike in its territory. The convention includes the proviso that in case of extraordinary drought or serious accident to the irrigation system in the United States, the amount of water delivered to the Mexican canal shall be diminished in the same proportion as the water delivered to lands under the irrigation system in the United States downstream of Elephant Butte Dike.

1933 Border Convention
In the 1933 Border Convention (1 February), the two governments agreed to jointly construct, operate, and maintain, through the IBC, the Rio Grande Rectification Project, which straightened and stabilized the 249-km (155-mile) river boundary through the highly developed El Paso–Juárez Valley. The project further provided for the control of the river's floods through this valley. Numerous parcels of land (174) were transferred between the two countries during the construction period, 1935 – 1938. At the end, each nation had ceded an equal area of land (2560.5 acres) to the other.

1944 Water Treaty
The Water Treaty of 3 February 1944 distributed between the two countries the waters of the Rio Grande from Fort Quitman to the Gulf of Mexico, and the waters of the Colorado River. Of the waters of the Rio Grande, the treaty allocates to Mexico:
 * All of the waters reaching the main channel of the Rio Grande from the San Juan and Alamo Rivers, including the return flows from the lands irrigated from those two rivers
 * Two-thirds of the flow in the main channel of the Rio Grande from the measured Rio Conchos, Rio San Diego, Rio San Rodrigo, Rio Escondido, and Rio Salado, and the Arroyo de las Vacas, subject to certain provisions
 * One-half of all other flows occurring in the main channel of the Rio Grande downstream from Fort Quitman

The treaty allocates to the United States:
 * All of the waters reaching the main channel of the Rio Grande from the Pecos and Devils Rivers, Goodenough Spring, and Alamito, Terlingua, San Felipe and Pinto Creeks.
 * One-third of the flow reaching the main channel of the river from the six named measured tributaries from Mexico, and provides that this third shall not be less, as an average amount in cycles of five consecutive years, than 350,000 acre.ft annually
 * One-half of all other flows occurring in the main channel of the Rio Grande downstream from Fort Quitman

The 1944 treaty further provided for the two governments to jointly construct, operate, and maintain on the main channel of the Rio Grande the dams required for the conservation, storage, and regulation of the greatest quantity of the annual flow of the river to enable each country to make optimum use of its allotted waters. The treaty also provides that of the waters of the Colorado River, Mexico is to receive:
 * A guaranteed annual quantity of 1500000 acre.ft to be delivered in accordance with schedules formulated in advance by Mexico within specified limitations
 * Any other waters arriving at the Mexican points of diversion under certain understandings

To enable diversion of Mexico's allotted waters, the treaty provided for the construction by Mexico of a main diversion structure in the Colorado River, below the point where the California–Baja California land boundary line intersects the river. It also provided for the construction at Mexico's expense of such works as may be needed in the United States to protect its lands from such floods and seepage as might result from the construction and operation of the diversion structure.

In the 1944 treaty, the two governments agreed to give preferential attention to the solution of all border sanitation problems. This treaty entrusts the IBWC (the renamed International Boundary Commission of the 1889 Convention) with the application of its terms, the regulation and exercise of the rights and obligations which the two governments assumed thereunder, and the settlement of all disputes to which its observance and execution may give rise. The treaty also provides that the IBWC study, investigate, and report to the governments on such hydroelectric facilities as the IBWC finds should be built at the international storage dams and on such flood control works, other than those specified in the treaty, that the IBWC finds should be built on the boundary rivers, the estimated cost thereof, the part to be built by each government, and to be operated and maintained by each through its section of the IBWC.

Under the terms of the 1944 treaty, the two governments reached agreement for the solution of the international problem of the salinity of the Lower Colorado River (30 August 1973), and the IBWC submitted and the two governments approved "Recommendations for the Solution of the Border Sanitation Problems" (24 September 1979).

There has long been tension between the two countries over the quality of Colorado River waters flowing to Mexico, including the salinity of irrigation waters discharged into the river at the southern boundary. In 1970, Mexican President Luis Echeverria threatened to bring the salinity dispute to the International Court of Justice. After intense negotiations, the matter was settled by delsalinization works pursuant to Minute 242, International Boundary and Water Commission, United States and Mexico, TIAS 7708 (1973).

Chamizal Convention
The Chamizal Convention of 29 August 1963 resolved the nearly 100-year-old boundary problem at El Paso and Ciudad Juárez. Known as the Chamizal Dispute, this involved some 630 acres of territory that were transferred from the south to the north bank of the Rio Grande by movement of the river during the latter part of the 19th century. By this convention, the two governments gave effect to a 1911 arbitration award under 1963 conditions. The convention provided for the relocation by the IBWC of the 7 km (4.4 miles) of the channel of the Rio Grande so as to transfer a net amount of 176.92 ha (437.18 acres) from the north to the south side of the river. U.S. President Lyndon Johnson met Mexican President Adolfo López Mateos in El Paso on 24 September 1964 to commemorate the ratification of the Chamizal Convention.

1970 Boundary Treaty
The 1970 Boundary Treaty (23 November) resolved all pending boundary differences and provided for maintaining the Rio Grande and the Colorado River as the international boundary. The Rio Grande was re-established as the boundary throughout its 2,019-km (1,254 mile) limitrophe section. The treaty includes provisions for restoring and preserving the character of the Rio Grande as the international boundary where that character has been lost, to minimize changes in the channel, and to resolve problems of sovereignty that might arise due to future changes in the channel of the Rio Grande. It provides for procedures designed to avoid the loss of territory by either country incident to future changes in the river's course due to causes other than lateral movement, incident to eroding one of its banks and depositing alluvium on the opposite bank. This treaty, too, charged the IBWC with carrying out its provisions.

The Boundary Treaty of 1970 transferred 823 acre of Mexican territory to the U.S., in areas near Presidio and Hidalgo, Texas, to build flood-control channels. In exchange, the U.S. ceded 2177 acre to Mexico, including five parcels near Presidio, the Horcon Tract containing the little town of Rio Rico, Texas, and Beaver Island near Roma, Texas. The last of these transfers occurred in 1977.

On November 24, 2009, the U.S. ceded six islands in the Rio Grande to Mexico, totaling 107.81 acres. At the same time, Mexico ceded three islands and two cuts to the U.S., totaling 63.53 acres. This transfer, which had been pending for 20 years, was the first application of Article III of the 1970 Boundary Treaty. In recent years, the IBWC has been criticized as an institutional anachronism, bypassed by modern social, environmental, and political issues. The U.S. section has been described as secretive, beholden to special interests, and indifferent to environmental problems. The State Department has attempted to distance itself from responsibility for the U.S. section, even disclaiming jurisdiction, notwithstanding numerous statutes to the contrary. Critics, including the agency's employees, say poor leadership has led to deteriorating levees, dams, and water-treatment facilities.

Dams
The IBWC operates the American Dam at the corner of Texas, New Mexico, and Mexico.


text:
User:Brant Jones

Hello, and welcome to my user page. My name is Brant Jones. I hold a Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Southern California, and a Master of Arts from The Ohio State University. I currently reside in Columbus, Ohio.

I initially joined Wikipedia under the pseudonym "Wild Goose" on 14 October, 2004, editing conservatively at first and gradually becoming bolder over time. When I learned of the Citizendium and its efforts to increase veracity and accountability, I chose to drop my pseudonym in favor of my real name. I encourage you to do the same.

 * My contributions
 * Some of my earliest edits
 * My very first edit: 14:06, 4 August 2004 (UTC) on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

I have only two articles on my watchlist:

 * Columbus, Ohio
 * Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

Fun facts
My screen name was mentioned in the September 2006 issue of Columbus Monthly magazine in an article entitled "Defining Columbus on Wikipedia" by Chad Painter. Cool!

Did you know... that the The Wild Goose was a handwritten newspaper read aloud to entertain and encourage the last convicts transported to Australia?

=My personal sandbox=

Underground comics (1983 - 1986)
The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles originated one November evening in 1983, when struggling illustrators Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird challenged each other to a game of "dueling sketches." Eastman devised a short, squat turtle wearing a mask with nunchakus strapped to its arms and called him a "Ninja Turtle." Laird sketched out his own version of the figure and dubbed it a "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle," which struck the two friends as incredibly funny. They soon created a team of four such turtles, each specializing in a different weapon. Eastman and Laird drew from influences such as Marvel Comics' Daredevil and New Mutants, Dave Sim's Cerebus and Frank Miller's Ronin.

Using money from a tax refund together with a loan from Eastman's uncle, they formed Mirage Studios and self-published a 40-page comic book relating the Turtles' origin story. The book premiered in May, 1984 at a comic book convention held at a local Sheraton Hotel in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. It was printed in an oversized magazine-style format using black & white artwork on cheap newsprint. Through a clever media kit that included an ad placed in Comic Buyer's Guide #547, the public's interest was piqued, and with a print run of only 3,000 copies, the first issue quickly became a hot collector's item.

This early popularity helped stoke a black & white comics boom in the mid-1980s, where other small publishers put out animal-based parody books hoping to make a quick profit. Among them, the Adolescent Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters, the Cold-Blooded Chameleon Commandos, and the Pre-Teen Dirty-Gene Kung Fu Kangaroos were obvious parodies of TMNT. Most of them sold to comic shops in large numbers, but failed to catch on with comics readers. This speculation led to financial problems with both comic shops and distributors, contributing to a sales collapse in 1986-7.

Among the first licensed products to feature the TMNT was a pen and paper RPG entitled Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness, published by Palladium Books in 1985. The game features a large list of animals, including pandas and sparrows, that are available as mutant player characters. Dark Horse Miniatures of Boise, Idaho, produced an attendant set of lead figurines. In August, 1986, Palladium publisher Kevin Siembieda put Eastman and Laird in touch with a licensing agent named Mark Freedman, whose efforts would soon propel the quirky characters into an international merchandising phenomenon.

Mainstream phenomenon (1987 - 1993)
In January 1987, Freedman brought Eastman and Laird to the offices of Playmates Toys, a small California toy company who wished to expand into the action figure market. Development initiated with a creative team of companies and individuals: Jerry Sachs, famous ad man of Sachs-Finley Agency, brought together the animators at Murakami-Wolf-Swenson, headed by award-winning animator Fred Wolf. Wolf and his team combined concepts and ideas with Playmates' marketing crew, headed by Karl Aaronian, Richard Sallis, and Bill Carlson. Catch-phrases such as "Heroes in a Half Shell" and "Turtle Power!" came from the writing and conceptualization of this creative team.

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles animated series premiered on December 10, 1987, as a 5-part cartoon miniseries. Then in June, 1988, Playmates Toys released its first assortment of TMNT action figures, including Donatello, Leonardo, Michelangelo, and Raphael. Also included were villains Shredder, Bebop and Rocksteady, and the Foot Soldier, along with supporting characters April O'Neil and Master Splinter.

Upon the TMNT's first arrival in the United Kingdom, the name was changed to "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles" (or TMHT, for short). Local censorship policies deemed the word ninja to have excessively violent connotations for a children's program, and Michaelangelo's nunchaku were even banned from use on the show. Besides the UK, they were also known as "Hero Turtles" in Ireland, Austria, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Poland. Since then, censorship policies have relaxed and the franchise is currently known as "Ninja Turtles" around the world.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Adventures was a comic book launched in August, 1988, published by Archie Comics. The initial storylines were close adaptations of the wildly popular cartoon series, but with issue #5 Eastman and Laird handed the series over to Mirage Studios' Ryan Brown and Stephen Murphy. The pair subsequently abandoned the adaptations of cartoon episodes in favor of writing all-new original adventures.

To meet increased demand for new comics, Mirage Studios launched Tales of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles alternating a bi-monthly schedule with the primary series so that the TMNT would have a monthly presence on comics dealers' shelves. But as the TMNT phenomenon proliferated to other media, Eastman and Laird found themselves administrating an international commercial juggernaut. This prevented the two creators from participating in the day-to-day work of writing and illustrating a monthly comic book. For this reason, many guest artists were invited to showcase their unique talents in the TMNT universe.

The TMNT cartoon became a regular Saturday morning syndicated series on October 1, 1988 with 13 additional episodes. Beginning on September 25, 1989, the series expanded to weekday broadcasts with 47 more episodes for the new season.

The first Famicom/NES TMNT game was the single-player Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, released by Konami/Ultra in 1989. It was unique in that at any point, the player could switch from one turtle to the next to take advantage of each Turtle's strengths. In addition, the player starts off in a strategic map where the player may explore sewer holes as well as engage patrolling enemy foot soldiers before entering any in-game portals. The game was also released on the many home computers, but these conversions were hastily made and got negative reviews. Years later the game was released for the Wii on the Virtual Console.

Also released by Konami in 1989 was the first TMNT arcade game, also titled simply Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. This side-scrolling "beat-em-up" was ported to the NES as Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: The Arcade Game and in March 2007 to the Xbox 360 as TMNT 1989 Arcade game though Xbox Live Arcade by Ubisoft. This led to an NES-only sequel, entitled Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III: The Manhattan Project, which used the look of the arcade game, as opposed the first NES game. The next Turtles console game, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Turtles in Time, was released in 1991 as an arcade game, and was later ported to the Super Nintendo as in 1992. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Hyperstone Heist was also created for the Sega Genesis in the same year, and used many of the art assets from TMNT IV.

There was also a trilogy of TMNT video games for the original Nintendo Game Boy system made by Konami, consisting of: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Fall of the Foot Clan, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: Back from the Sewers, and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III: Radical Rescue.

The first film, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, closely follows the storyline from the Mirage comic books, in addition to some of the more lighthearted elements of the cartoons. This movie presents the origin story of Splinter and the Turtles, their initial encounters with April (Judith Hoag) and Casey (Elias Koteas), and their first confrontation with Shredder and his Foot Clan. Directed by Steve Barron and released by New Line Cinema, the film showcases the innovative puppetry techniques of Jim Henson's Creature Shop. It remains one of the highest grossing independent films of all time.

To further add to the Turtles' popularity, a concert tour was held in 1990, premiering at Radio City Music Hall. The "Coming Out of Their Shells" tour featured live-action turtles (in costumes similar to the films) playing music as a band (Donatello; keyboards, Leonardo; bass guitar, Raphael; drums & sax, Michaelangelo; guitar) on stage around a familiar plotline: April O'Neil is kidnapped by the Shredder, the turtle guys have to rescue her. The story had a very Bill-n'-Ted-esque feel, with its theme of the power of rock n' roll literally defeating the enemy, in the form of the Shredder (who only rapped, about how he hates music) trying to eliminate all music (Interestingly, the first two films featured rap in their soundtracks). A pay-per-view special highlighting the concert was shown, and a studio album was also released.

Since the tour was sponsored by Pizza Hut in real life, there are many references to their pizza. Empty Pizza Hut boxes are seen onscreen during the "Behind The Shells" VHS. As part of a cross-marketing strategy, Pizza Hut restaurants gave away posters, audio cassettes of "Coming Out of Their Shells," and "Official Tour Guides" as premiums.

The original show of the tour was released on video with a making of video also released.

On June 30, 1990 the TMNT arrived in the "New York Street" section of Disney-MGM Studios theme park in Orlando. Emerging from their Turtle Party Wagon, they would "ninja dance" across the stage while April performed the theme song to the show. After the main show was done they would pose for pictures and sign autographs.

The second film, entitled Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: The Secret of the Ooze, expands on the Turtles' origin story while claiming the distinction as Vanilla Ice's film debut. It also introduced the Turtles' human friend Keno (Ernie Reyes, Jr.) and Shredder's mutant henchmen Tokka and Rahzar. The original story was to include Rocksteady and Bebop at the insistence of the studio, but Laird and Eastman fought tooth and nail to prevent their inclusion, settling on Tokka and Rahzar as a compromise. The original ending to "Ooze" would also reveal the benevolent TGRI scientist, Jordon Perry (David Warner), to have been an Utrom. But due to budget constraints, plus the fear he may be mistaken for the character Krang, the plot twist was abandoned.

The third film in the series is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III, which features Elias Koteas reprising his role as the character Casey Jones. The plot revolves around the "Sacred Sands of Time", a mystical scepter which transports the Turtles back in time to feudal Japan, where they become embroiled in a conflict between the daimyo and British traders.

Declining popularity (1994 - 2000)
On September 17, 1994, (with a different theme song, opening sequence, and end credits background) the series continued with one episode per week but big changes were made to the series. Starting with the 1994 season, the format of the series was changed to a more action-oriented show, removing many character building scenes and the cartoon feel of the series. The opening sequence was completely changed to one where clips of the 1994 Season were used instead of animation specifically for the intro. The theme song was changed to a techno beat and scenes from the 1990 live action movie, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were intercut with new scenes from the 1994 Season. The sky was changed from a blue sky to a red sky with gray clouds to give the show a darker tone, similar to what was done with the original Spider-Man animated series in seasons 2 and 3. The series ran until November 2, 1996 when it aired its final episode. Its enormous popularity gave rise to numerous imitators, including the Battletoads, Cheetahmen, Street Sharks, and Biker Mice from Mars. The first 66 episodes are available on DVD.

Erik Larsen came to the rescue in June 1996, with the publication of a third volume under the Image Comics banner. The 23 monthly issues were written by Gary Carlson and pencilled by Frank Fosco, and marked a return to black & white artwork. This volume is notable for having a faster pace and more intense action while inflicting major physical changes on the Turtles themselves (e.g.Leonardo losing a hand, Raphael's face being scarred, and Donatello becoming a cyborg). In a startling plot twist, Raphael even took on the identity of Shredder and assumed leadership of the Foot. With Volume 3, the Turtles were incorporated into the Image universe, which provided opportunities for a few crossovers and guest appearances by characters from The Savage Dragon series. The series ceased publication in 1999, and it is no longer considered part of the "official" TMNT canon.

In 1997-1998, the Turtles starred in a live-action television series called Ninja Turtles: The Next Mutation that follows the events of the movies. A fifth turtle was introduced, a female named "Venus de Milo" who was skilled in the mystical arts of the shinobi. The series seemed to be a loose continuation of the movie franchise, as Shredder had been defeated and the Ninja Turtles encountered new villains. Other connections to the feature films include the fact that Splinter's ear was cut, the Foot Soldiers were humans, and the Turtles lived in the abandoned subway station seen in the second and third movies. The Next Mutation Turtles even made a guest appearance on Power Rangers: In Space, a live-action show that was popular at the time.

However, The Next Mutation never caught on with fans, and it was canceled after one season of twenty-six episodes. Since its cancellation, the program has been considered apocryphal by most of the TMNT fanbase, and Peter Laird has disavowed all knowledge of the character Venus de Milo, while Kevin Eastman is more open to talk about her.

 * Eastman sells his rights to the characters, moves to Heavy Metal

New commercial success (2001 - present)
Peter Laird and Jim Lawson brought the Turtles back to their roots with the simply-titled TMNT in December 2001. Published bi-monthly, the series is known for its lengthy, carefully-woven plot threads interspersed with social commentary. The authors also took the opportunity to correct a persistent error: since the first issue of Volume 1, Michelangelo's name had been misspelled as "Michaelangelo." It is now spelled correctly, consistent with his Renaissance namesake.

Picking up fifteen years after the conclusion of Volume 2 (and omitting the events of Volume 3), readers find the Turtles, now in their thirties, living together in their sewer lair beneath New York City. April and Casey have been married for some time and remain in contact with the Turtles from their nearby apartment. Splinter continues to live at the Northampton farmhouse, where he has become a "grandfather" of sorts to Casey's teenage daughter, Shadow. The Utroms return to Earth in a very public arrival, subsequently establishing a peaceful base in Upper New York Bay. Since the arrival, aliens--and other bizarre life-forms, like the Turtles--have become more universally accepted. No longer forced to live in hiding, the Turtles now roam freely among the world of humans, albeit under the guise of aliens.

Volume 4 is presently on an eight-month hiatus to allow Peter Laird more time to oversee production of the new TMNT movie. The Tales of the TMNT publication schedule remains unaffected.

On February 8, 2003, the Fox Network revived the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles franchise with the help of 4Kids Entertainment as a Saturday morning cartoon in the "FoxBox" programming block, which has since been renamed "4Kids TV". The 2003 TMNT cartoon series is produced by Mirage Studios, and Mirage owns one-third of the rights to the series. Mirage's significant stake in creative control results in a cartoon that hews more closely to the original comics, creating a darker and edgier feel than the 1987 cartoon, but still remaining lighthearted enough to be considered appropriate for children.

The show's fourth season left the "Ninja Tribunal" story arc with a cliffhanger finale. This storyline was left unresolved when, on 2006-07-29, the show began a radical new direction under the subtitle Fast Forward, and the Turtles find themselves time-traveling to New York City circa 2105. Peter Laird and other staff writers had been working on a fifth season for the 2003 animated series that would have resolved the "Ninja Tribunal" storyline, had the decision to produce Fast Forward not been made. The 13-episode "lost fifth season" has been confirmed for a release on DVD in the near future, and several episodes are currently available through the 4KidsTV On-Demand cable service. '

The Turtles' fourth feature film, entitled simply TMNT, is currently in post-production, with a theatrical release date scheduled for 23 March, 2007. Unlike the previous films, it will utilize 100% computer-generated imagery, produced by Imagi Animation Studios and distributed by The Weinstein Company and Warner Bros. Pictures. According to a press release, "the PG-rated movie will derive its tone from the original comic-book series and will be slightly grittier than the previous live-action pictures. The animation will be created in Imagi’s state-of-the-art facility in Hong Kong." The teaser trailer was released July 20, 2006. A second trailer was released January 17, 2007.

Character profiles

 * Leonardo - The de facto leader of the Turtles, Leonardo is courageous, decisive, and a disciplined student of martial arts. As a strict adherent to Bushido, he has a very strong sense of honor and justice. He wears a blue mask and wields a pair of katana. He is named after Leonardo da Vinci.
 * Raphael - The team "anti-hero", Raphael has an aggressive nature and seldom hesitates to throw the first punch. His personality can be alternately fierce, sarcastic, and full of angst. He wears a red mask and wields a pair of sai. He is named after Raphael Sanzio.
 * Michelangelo - The easy-going and free-spirited Michelangelo provides much of the comic relief. While he loves to read comics and eat pizza, this Turtle also has an adventurous side. He wears an orange mask and wields a pair of nunchaku. He is named after Michelangelo Buonarroti.
 * Donatello - The brilliant scientist, inventor, and technology geek, Donatello has a reputation as something of a smart aleck. He is perhaps the least violent Turtle, preferring to use his intellect to solve conflicts. He wears a purple mask and wields the bō. He is named after Donato di Niccolò di Betto Bardi.

Supporting characters

 * Splinter - The Turtles' sensei and adoptive father, Splinter is a mutant rat who learned the ways of ninjutsu from his own master, Hamato Yoshi.  Splinter's name is a parody of Stick, the man who mentored Daredevil.
 * April O'Neil - A former lab assistant to the mad scientist Baxter Stockman, April is the plucky human companion of the Turtles. She embarks on many of the Turtles' adventures and aids them by doing the work that the Turtles themselves cannot do in public. During the early height of TMNT popularity, April was famously depicted as a television news reporter.
 * Casey Jones - A vigilante who has become one of the Turtles' closest allies, Casey fights crime with an assortment of sporting goods (baseball bats, golf clubs, hockey sticks, etc.) while wearing a goalie mask to protect his identity.
 * Shredder - A villainous ninja master named Oroku Saki who, along with his evil Foot Clan, is the arch-enemy of Splinter and the Turtles. Shredder wears a fearsome suit of armor covered with sharp blades.

Cultural impact

 * See also List of cultural references to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

As the self-published creation of two amateurs, the wildly lucrative TMNT inspired thousands of fans to self-publish their own comics, usually in black and white. The growth of independent comics, already underway when TMNT was launched, suddenly exploded, fueled by creators hoping to achieve the success of Eastman & Laird and speculators hoping to profit from the exploitation of supply and demand. Several new publishers such as Eclipse, First, Comico, and Dark Horse Comics grew to prominence during the 1980s independent comics boom. The economic effects were even felt in the UK comics industry. As Eddie Campbell would later write, "suddenly, because of the Turtles, the game was open to everybody."

Although the TMNT had originated as a parody, the comic's explosive success led to a wave of small-press, black & white comic parodies of TMNT itself, including Adolescent Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters, Pre-Teen Dirty-Gene Kung Fu Kangaroos, and a host of others. Dark Horse Comics' Boris the Bear was launched in response to these TMNT clones; its first issue was titled "Boris the Bear Slaughters the Teenage Radioactive Black Belt Mutant Ninja Critters." Once the Turtles broke into the mainstream, parodies also proliferated in other media, such as in satire magazines Cracked and MAD Magazine.

Comic books

 * Read the entire first issue of the original TMNT comic

1987 TV series

 * Original Theme Song Lyrics
 * Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1987) at the Big Cartoon DataBase

2003 TV series

 * Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2003) at the Big Cartoon DataBase

Tour

 * The Coming Out of Their Shells Tour on Google Video
 * The making of the Coming Out of Their Shells Tour on Google Video

title: User:Brant Jones


text:
Talk:Termination of employment

What is up with the formatting of the section titles of this article?
I mean, the headline says it all. The formatting of these section titles cannot possibly comply with the style guide. What is going on? Should we fix this? Nicolás Macri (talk) 04:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Termination of employment


text:
User talk:Arzachel

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! Jayjg (talk) 19:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
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POV at Current Events
Thanks for letting me know. Jayjg (talk) 19:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

International wheelchair symbol discussion
Hello. There is currently a discussion in place at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Use of international wheelchair symbol concerning whether or not we should use the International Symbol of Access to indicate handicapped-accessible train/metro statains, Disney rides, etc. Our other options are plain text or an alternative icon such as. Your input would be welcome. —Remember the dot (talk) 04:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Whats with the userboxes?
Hey, How come you say ur an atheist and a pilgrim, and a satanist? It dosnt make sence. And how do you have so many jobs? And how the hec can u be in the air force, army, navy, and have every rank in each? Also how can you come from like 20 differant countries? Also, how come you have so many fav animals, and you also say that the some animals are evil? It really makes sence!  —Zan orath 10:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

About the userboxes, I meant no harm; I just find it annoying to see the same name in all categories. When people have that many userboxes (you're not the only one...), it makes the categories accompanying useless. Anyways, I only put them in comments, like <!-- this -->, so it's easy to get them back. But I strongly suggest you don't. Jon Harald Søby 00:06, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Nontheism
See: Articles_for_deletion/Nontheism.

Greetings, I see that you have chosen to conspicuously identify as a "Nontheistic Wikipedian" Me too! Currently there is a proposal to delete the article Nontheism or merge and redirect it to Atheism. Greg Bard (talk) 22:23, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

luthier
Please help me stop an editor from violating WP:ENGVAR by censoring well-sourced information about US usage. Ironically he even feels authorised to remove Oxford Dictionary information that he feels is wrong. --Espoo (talk) 22:56, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:Arzachel
User:Arzachel, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Arzachel and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). You are free to edit the content of User:Arzachel during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. œ ™ 13:26, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

 * I would rather you just trim it down to just the userboxes relevant to yourself, then I would withdraw this nomination. -- œ ™ 13:31, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Arzachel


text:
User talk:Bota47

Welcome! (We can't say that loudly enough!)

Here are a few links you might find helpful:

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You can sign your name on talk pages and votes by typing ~~~~; our software automatically converts it to your username and the date.

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We're so glad you're here! KHM03 19:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Running bots
Hi! I don't know who runs this bot, so I left the message here. By the way, that would be a very helpful thing to put on it's user page.

Please see the policies an WP:BOT, you need to discuss and tell people you're running a bot, and what it will do. --Phroziac (talk) 17:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Robot humour
I realise that you're adding links to the Bosnian-language Wikipedia, but I did find the edit summary robot Adding: bs very amusing! --Gareth Hughes 00:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Good Advice, Thanks!
Thanks Bota47 - I'm new, but already run into what someone calls POV BOT GANGS - I'm not exactly sure what they are yet, but they sure are nasty. Do you think keeping a list of these members is wise, or should I just ignore them? What are your thoughts? Theo 13:17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Gnome
It appears you linked Rotary Engine to Moteur gnome. In general this would not be correct, there's a separate article for Gnome. Are you sure this link is correct? Maury 14:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I dont know, my robot Bota47 just added this link, because Moteur gnome has link to Rotary engine. --Li-sung 15:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

 * That seems to suggest the French version is incorrectly linked. Can you fix that? Maury 22:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a automated to all bot operators
Please take a few moments and fill in the data for your bot on Bots/Status Thank you Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 18:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Automated message to bot owners
As a result of discussion on the village pump and mailing list, bots are now allowed to edit up to 15 times per minute. The following is the new text regarding bot edit rates from Bot Policy: "Until new bots are accepted they should wait 30-60 seconds between edits, so as to not clog the recent changes list and user watchlists. After being accepted and a bureaucrat has marked them as a bot, they can edit at a much faster pace. Bots doing non-urgent tasks should edit approximately once every ten seconds, while bots who would benefit from faster editing may edit approximately once every every four seconds." Also, to eliminate the need to spam the bot talk pages, please add Bot owners' noticeboard to your watchlist. Future messages which affect bot owners will be posted there. Thank you. --Mets501 00:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Red link
On July 2 last, this bot added  to Kingdom of Judah. That links was red so I deleted it. Any idea what happened there? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 15:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

 * In old revision that link works for me. If it realy appered as red link in article, there was probably temporary problem in software with interwiki links.--Li-sung (talk) 16:05, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Query
I need help renaming about 200 articles. Doing this by hand would take me all day.

Can your bot rename articles, or be adapted to do so?

If so, please contact me.

Thank you.

The Transhumanist 22:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:32, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Bota47


text:
User:Theonetruestripes

Stripes loves puppies!

title: User:Theonetruestripes


text:
GE B30-7

The GE B30-7 is a diesel-electric locomotive model produced by GE from 1977 to 1983 as part of their Dash 7 Series, featuring a 16 cylinder engine producing 3,000 horsepower. A total of 399 units were produced, including 120 cabless B30-7A units. The B30-7AB/A(B) is an unofficial model. The B30-7 was GE's successor to the U30B.

Design and production history
The B30-7 was designed from the B23-7, and was nearly identical in appearance. However, the B30-7 featured 3,000 horsepower, compared to the B23-7's 2,300 horsepower. Almost all were built with FB2 trucks.

GE produced several variants of the B30-7. These were developed from an experimental modification of the B23-7's 12-cylinder engine in June 1980 to uprate it to 3,000 horsepower. By using the 12 cylinder prime mover instead of the 16 cylinder version, railroads saved money on fuel and maintenance, and most subsequent B30-7s incorporated a 12-cylinder engine. Variants using this engine were the B30-7A, B30-7A1 and the cabless B30-7A. The B30-7A without a cab is unofficially known as the B30-7A(B) to distinguish it from the version with a cab.

B30-7As were built only for the Missouri Pacific Railroad and are externally identical to the 16-cylinder version B30-7. B30-7A1s, which featured a high short hood, were built only for the Southern Railway.

Cabless B30-7A(B)s were built only for the Burlington Northern Railroad.

Operational history
Shortline railroad Providence and Worcester Railroad acquired five ex-BN B30-7A(B) cabless units, reclassified as B30-7AB units, numbered #3004-3008, in 2001. National Railway Equipment acquired these locomotives in 2015. Most of the remaining B30-7A(B)s were retired in 1999.

Preservation
, two B30-7 or B30-7As remain in remote control master unit service on the Union Pacific Railroad (out of the original 55 that were converted). As of the same time, multiple units also remain on the Minnesota Commercial Railway and West Tennessee Railroad, while the Natchez Railway was attempting to sell theirs.

In early 2017, CSX repainted ex-C&O B30-7 #8272 into its original Chessie System livery and donated it to the Lake Shore Railway Museum in North East, Pennsylvania.

Southern Pacific #7863 is preserved by a private owner in South Fork, Colorado.

title: GE B30-7


text:
American College of Gastroenterology

The American College of Gastroenterology (ACG) is a Bethesda, Maryland–based medical association of gastroenterologists.

The association was founded in 1932 and holds annual meetings and regional postgraduate continuing education courses, establishes research grants, and publishes The American Journal of Gastroenterology, Clinical and Translational Gastroenterology and The ACG Case Reports Journal. More than 18,000 physicians from 86 countries are members of the ACG. The ACG provides its members with scientific information on digestive health and the etiology, symptomatology and treatment of GI disorders.

The current president (2023–24) is Jonathan A. Leighton, MD, FACG.

title: American College of Gastroenterology


text: File:Jackyl.PNG

title: File:Jackyl.PNG


text:
David Miles (radio announcer)

David Miles (born 1954) is a British continuity announcer and newsreader on BBC Radio 4.

Biography
David Miles joined the BBC in 1975 as a studio manager. Initially working at Bush House, he then transferred to Broadcasting House. Between 1984 and 1987, and again between 1988 and 12 June 1995, he worked as a BBC Television announcer. In the summer of 1995 he became an announcer on Channel 4, but he later rejoined Radio 4. He has also announced for the UK version of the History Channel.

title: David Miles (radio announcer)


text:
Regional School Unit 71

Regional School Unit 71 (RSU 71), formerly Maine School Administrative District 71 (MSAD 71 or SAD 71) is a school district containing the towns of Kennebunk, Maine and Kennebunkport, Maine. It currently (as of July 2005) provides 5 schools for the children within its boundaries:

 * Kennebunk Elementary School — a new school building, replacing the older Cousins School and Park Street School. It provides classes for kindergarten through grade 3 for children from Kennebunk.
 * Sea Road School — located in the lower village of Kennebunk, it provides classes for grade 4 and grade 5 for children from Kennebunk.
 * Consolidated School — provides classes for kindergarten through grade 5 for children from Kennebunkport.
 * Middle School of the Kennebunks — provides classes for grade 6 through grade 8 for all children in the district.
 * Kennebunk High School — provides classes for grade 9 through grade 12 for all children in the district. It is also attended by many students from nearby Arundel, which has no high school.

title: Regional School Unit 71


text:
Talk:Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars

Copyright violation?
''(From a message that I left at User talk:Soltak)]] The material you've added comes mostly from here. That page states: "Copyright 2005, The Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. All rights reserved." Do you have permission to copy this material (under the Wikipedia terms of coopyright), or do you have good reason to believe that the material is usable by Wikipedia? --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 19:41, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

 * (From my response on User talk: Soltak)
 * I appreciate your inquiry, as it is warranted. A good bit of the information did come from the cited link. Before adding it to Wikipedia, however, I did secure the permission of Sharon McCarter, Director of Outreach & Communications for the Center. As this is an encyclopedia entry and not intended for personal gain, I was informed that the policies of the Center (and most government entities) allow for the material to be copied. -Soltak 20:35, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. The problem is that, because of Wikipedia's policy for use of its own material (see Wikipedia:Copyrights) that might not be enough. I'll check myself, but it would be good if you could contact the Centre and make sure that they understand the position (perhaps by giving them a link to our copyrights page). Sorry for all the fuss, but it would be a pity to lose all the material; if the worst comes to the worst, we'll have to rewrite it sifficiently to avoid the problem. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 09:31, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I reviewed the copyright info from that link and it reads in pertinent part "...if you obtain special permission to use a copyrighted work from the copyright holder under the terms of our license, you must make a note of that fact (along with names and dates)." Perhaps we should add something either at the beginning or end of the article indicating that a portion of the material comes from the Center itself, along with the date that posting was authorized. -Soltak 17:29, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Kennan Institute article
The Kennan Institute for Russian studies has been a component of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars since 1974. The institute serves as a venue for scholars of Russia, located in the Ronald Reagan Building, in the Federal Triangle, Washington, D.C.. Named for George F. Kennan, who composed the 'long telegram' advocating containment of the Stalinist Soviet Union, his views on US policy provided clear guidance in the succeeding decades. --Ancheta Wis 21:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Please improve the article with your knowledge, using sources. Thank you. WAS 4.250 23:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Kent Hughes
Link appears to be the wrong Kent Hughes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.130.213 (talk) 00:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Logo is out of date
Couldn't find a press page on their website with a downloadable one, but I'm sure it's somewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.110.58.234 (talk) 15:19, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150618100216/http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Iran-American-Detained.html?ex=1346472000&en=9d7c81ac763d9e33&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss to http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Iran-American-Detained.html?ex=1346472000&en=9d7c81ac763d9e33&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 02:29, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Can we discuss please
Hi Gumdropqueen. Much of the material you restored is unsourced and, arguably, does not belong in an encyclopedia ab out the institute's work. Can you clarify which piece(s) you wanted to restore and include some independent, reliable sourcing discussing the think tank's work. Happy to chat further as well if you need more info. Star  Mississippi  02:02, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi. The information cut about the programs was out of date but valuable. I was going through after the restore to find the sourcing and add in information that would fit more in the tenor of an encyclopedia entry, at the least to make sure the information was up to date on what the think tank covers.

 * Thanks. . I think what it covers could be helpful, but the information there was likely a copyvio (not you, someone else who added it) so I'm not sure it should be restored. I'm actually looking into whether it needs to be deleted from the history. Would a sourced summary work until it could be fleshed out? Happy for other ideas Star   Mississippi  13:10, 7 October 2021 (UTC)


text:
Talk:The Penultimate Peril

Possible Sept 11 Connection?
Has anyone else noticed the similarities between the ending scene of this book and the events of september 11? It seems rather unlikely that an author could both write about a large, occupied building being burned (and destroyed) AND include a quote that specifically mentions skyscrapers falling without having 9/11 in mind. In keeping with the style of the other books in this series, this is a connection that children may not easily notice but an adult does immediately. Any opinions?

 * I don't think so. I mean, let's face it - buildings have been falling down in pop culture for eons. Think Fight Club. Think The Towering Inferno. Think the Tower of Babel. I'm sure that when Snicket wrote about the destruction of the hotel his mind would definitely have remembered September 11, but I don't believe that he wrote it to reference that in any way. Daydream believer2 05:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

 * The Tower of Babel didn't fall down; Jericho fell down. — the Man in Question (in question)  21:17, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Possibility of Title being The Lousy Lane
The Lousy Lane is a pretty unlikely name for the book, even if it does end up taking place there. Only one book (The Reptile Room) has been named after a place actually mentionned in the book. Most of them have taken place at alliterative locations, but none other has been named after it:
 * The Lacrymose Lake : The Wide Window
 * The Prufrock Prep : The Austere Academy
 * The Mortmain Mountains : The Slippery Slope

Furthermore, even those that have been named after the location use an adjective to describe it rather than the name itself:
 * The Heimlich Hospital : The Hostile Hospital
 * The Caligari Carnival : ''The Carnivorous Carnival
 * The Gorgonian Grotto : The Grim Grotto

I am aware the "lousy" is an adjective and that it accurately describes the lane, but given the above it seems unlikely that it will be used. Besides, at one end of Lousy Lane is the city, where books I and VI have already taken place, at th'other end is Uncle Monty's, which has been done, and in the middle is horseradishes. Not much room for a book there.

The theory can still be mentionned, but the paragraph about lousy lane should prolly go--Signor Giuseppe 19:41, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I have partially restored the Lousy Lane paragraph. I agree with your comments above, and think that it probably is not Lousy Lane, but really we have no way of knowing. I have tried to clarify why some people might think it might be though. The description paragraph is a bit long and could be shorted to the last sentence perhaps, the reason why it was like this, is that this article used to be called Lousy Lane before it was renamed, so I put it in as a description of the location. Onco_p53 22:09, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Most importantly, you left my revisions of the letter-games paragraphs, which I definitely appreciate. As for the long quotation from Book II, I posted here to say "it should prolly go" and heard no objexions. Not that that's so bad: if it took it actually being deleted to get your attention, so be it. I still think a long paragraph describing a location from a previous book is quite silly. The notion about horseradish being the cure for mushrooms is good, but the apple trees and Tedia? There are most unneccesary.--Signor Giuseppe 14:51, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

The Book Title & Cover has been revealed!
Unofficialy. Don't look if you don't want to know. Spoilers! The back cover is readable here: Spoilers!
 * I'm not sure how official they are. Don't post them on the article (for a start you'll ruin the fun for the rest of us!)  smurray  in  chester (User), (Talk), (Recent Contrib) 19:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I won't put it in, wouldn't I have done that already if I planned to? I'm not a spoilerer :) I'm confident that the picture is real though, absolutely confident. Btw, I'm User:Occono, sorry I ain't logged in.

 * I'm sorry. I was more talking to other people who would no doubt copy paste straight from the website (probably surrounded by lots of !!!!!!!!!!! and ALLCAPS)  smurray  in  chester (User), (Talk) 14:44, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

The question at hand really is how we should change the article in light of this information. I should be mentioned but since it isn't from an official source, it can't be trusted totally. --Cel e stianpower hablamé 07:50, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, It was right after all, so we should merge the article with The Penultimate Peril now. -Occono

When book title is revealed ...
... the page will be alot smaller, as the suggested titles will go as will the Evidence section. Anyone got any ideas as to what can be added when title is revealed? Squidward2602 08:50, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Probably, the cover will be revealed, and therefore the importance of the front Illustration (and possibly the rear blurb) can be explored. Smurrayinchester 17:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

When the book is published, this page should be moved to it's offical title. I think the two covers should go to the Evidence section.

All of these IP editors seem to be adding lots of random things in a nonsensical and unclear way to this article so I've now added the cleanup tag. It needs a major restructure and a separation of fact, opinion and guessing. --Celestianpower hablamé 22:24, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Bolding/Italics for suggested titles
Should the suggested titles be bolded or italisised? I believe not - it makes it messy and cluttered. However, if consensus is to have them bold/italics then I'm fine with it. --Cel e stianpower hablamé 15:59, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I believe that bolding of the suggested titles is good, as it makes them stand out, and I don't think it makes the page look messy or cluttered... --209.122.225.118 19:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)CG
 * Why do they need to Stand out ? --Cel e stianpower hablamé 20:01, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Justice Strauss is left behind?
It was my interpretation that since the building trembled just as she let go, both she and the boat went tumbling to the ground. Unfortunately, she didn't have that nifty sheet thing that Violet did. Besides, it burned to the ground, so she's more than likely dead anyway. I'm not going to change the article unless someone confirms this. -- Doug teh H-Nut

Yes she is dead since pg. 349 says: " With a cry of pain and frustration, Justice Straus let go of the figurehead, and the building trembled again, sending the judge tumbling to the ground........" Without a doubt, she would have fallen to her death.

Maybe it meant she fell to the the roof? I wrote a story where I used "I fell to the ground" meant that the character fell down, but stayed on the roof.

But that would've been incorrect. If someone is to fall to the ground, they're probably on the actual ground. Otherwise, he would've said something like "and Justice Srauss fell" Othatzsokewl (talk) 19:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Who is dead?
Where any characters (Poe, Esme, Carmelita, Strauss, etc.) officially named as dead in the book, or any hints given? I don't have the book yet, so I just want to know, because I've seen the page read about deaths and then edited to read no named deaths. Squidward2602 19:36, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I edited it. I was cleaning up the style in general, and when I came to that part I decided a slight accuracy improvement was called for as well. Lemony Snicket tells us that the Baudelaires never met Esmé, Carmelita or Mr. Poe again. We are NOT told that any of them (or anyone at all) is dead. -- Michael, 19 Oct 2005

 * "Mr Poe was not fated to die by being shot with a harpoon. At least, not that night"  smurray  in  chester (User), (Talk) 20:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

 * True, it does say that. However, logically, that just means he doesn't die that night from a harpoon shot. It doesn't necessarily mean he will die from a harpoon shot on some other occasion. I still think it's open. -- Michael, 23 October 2005

 * Well, according to Snicket's writing style, it does. Random the Scrambled 12:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Cover illustration
yes someone died in this book So, now that the book is out, who are the people on the cover? The one on the left is Kit Snicket, of course (the two pencils in her hair); I haven't a clue about anyone else. -- Michael, 19 Oct 2005

 * I'm not 100% as to whether it is Kit. It looks kind of like her, but the image of her on page 19 looks quite different. Plus, Kit never enters the hotel. The guy with the pipe could be the mysterious person from chapter 10, but again, he looks different to the inside illustration.  smurray  in  chester (User), (Talk) 20:45, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

 * After looking back at the Chapter 2 picture, I'm even more sure it is Kit. They definitely look like the same person to me, just from different angles. The man with the pipe definitely looks different from the Chapter 10 man, though, I agree there; besides, the latter is smoking a cigarette, not a pipe. -- Michael, 24 Oct 2005.

 * In fact, it's almost definitely Kit. Compare the front cover with the book's first illustration.

I removed the mention of who the cover characters are, on account of it's original research - and dubious at that; many of the supposed characters are only linked by gender, and the person who's supposed to be Hugo didn't resemble the actual illustration of Hugo within the book. Kit can be re-inserted, though, if there's consensus enough, but I'll revert any others (aside from the Baudelaires, obviously).

Sebald Code
I've taken the bit about the Sebald Code on page 67 out of Plot Notes -- firstly because it isn't a plot note, and secondly because the exact same thing is already stated in Interesting Facts. -- Michael, 21 Oct 2005

 * It says that this is one example; I can't find any others. Are there any?  smurray  in  chester (User), (Talk) 20:46, 22 October

It doesnt say that.it says:"i cant tell if you are associates or enemies,please respond".(this isnt part of it)Please respond --Cc november 14 2005

Sir
Is Sir really on the "Dastardly side of VFD"? I might have missed something while reading, if someone could verify that he is, in fact even in VFD, that would be great.

 * Sorry, I think that entire section is rubbish and should be deleted. Anything new we didn't know before can go on the V.F.D. page. Sir is not known to be in V.F.D. at all, and the same goes for quite a few more characters mentioned there. Also, I know Hector might be the third Anwhistle sibling because of the G-H-I thing, but we don't know for certain that I'm aware of. -- Michael, 22 Oct 2005

 * Ok, I'm in agreement. It seems useless, like you said, since there's already a section for that in V.F.D.. I'll take it down, unless there are any objections to put it back up.

Link back to "The Nameless Novel"?
Now that all the dust seems to have settled (and I finished the book JUST before getting Handler to sign it on the 22nd, literally, I was in the line at Neuqua Valley High School), shouldn't there be a sentence and a link back to "The Nameless Novel" game that was going for a couple of months? --JohnDBuell | Talk 17:55, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

New Interesting Facts
"On the first illustrated page after the dedication is a man with a cig in his mouth. He is the same man who appears on the first page of chapter 10(page 237). Also in the first illustration he has an envelope in his hand. It says J.S. Hotel Denouement.... That must mean he is the mysterious J.S. " I disagree, he could have been sending the letter, as opposed to receiving it. - jules_su

Chapters 8 and 9
''The picture in Chapter 8 show several men caring tools, yet the chapter never mentions anything about it. '' Well, I assumed it was the Seven Dwarfs, who are mentioned on the second page of that chapter. What is the illustration for Chapter 9 about, though? Anyone worked that out? -- Michael, 25 Oct 2005

 * It's right on that page, about goats eating dandilions. - jules_su

after that it explains and it talks about a goat

Plot
Sorry, but the section about the plot is a mess. It reads like a bad acid trip. TheMadBaron 05:55, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Merge from The Nameless Novel
Per the suggestion of some people on #wikipedia, I have proposed that The Nameless Novel be merged into this page. 90% of The Nameless Novel is not encyclopedic, and the remainder could be added to this page in a paragraph. As I know very little about the subject, I will wait to see if anyone else can do this merge before attempting it myself. --Constantine Evans 20:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

THE PROPER NAMES
This is what Lemony Snicket called them, and this is what they shall be called:

1. The Bad Beginning| 2. The Reptile Room| 3. The Wide Window| 4. The Miserable Mill| 5. The Austere Academy| 6. The Ersatz Elevator| 7. The Vile Village| 8. The Hostile Hospital| 9. The Carnivorous Carnival| 10. The Slippery Slope| 11. The Grim Grotto| 12. The Penultimate Peril| 13. The End

Who's Saying Otherwise? ~HTES --Count Olaf 09:00, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

A possible connection?
Someone might ask Handler, but I think the odd trial where "Justice is blind" and the people in the court are blindfolded may have been influenced Ed Rosenthal trial in San Francisco that ended early in 2003. Keith Henson 17:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Foreshadowing
I want to make sure what the foreshadowing for the next book is in The Penultimate Peril's last picture. Any ideas ? --AirLiner 22:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Bats. But that would be for THE BEATRICE LETTERS, so...who konws?

 * I don't think they resembled bats so much as birds, and it's got to be them as they're the only thing out of place; my guess is that they're eagles and Handler thought at the time he'd be including the eagles directly in the plot of The End. The whole series is packed full of retcons anyway, so it doesn't matter - the letter to the editor at the end of TVV mentioned a lamp mistakenly sent to Hal that never actually appeared in the book, and that's the lightest of examples.

Uh, could you list other examples? They might be, you know, intresting inclusions....anyway, I think he just didn't want any clues at all about the end except for the hints towards the island in the books.
 * The date of the schism almost certainly changed at one point - in the UA, it's when Jacques and Lemony were young adults, if not adults, but in TPP, Kit (Jacques's twin) was only four years old at the time - Jacques comes very close in the UA to outright saying that Olaf started the schism, but given that he was in Lemony's class in TBL and thus the same age, it's very unlikely that he started the schism, given that he was that a less than four years old. 217.42.65.113 17:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:ThePenultimatePeril2.JPG
Image:ThePenultimatePeril2.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Book the 12
When I read it, it was all messed up. It stopped and repeated thirty of the pages I had read up to the page I read then skipped a LOT. I think it may have been a printing error, But I cant tell.

Count Olaf

With all do respect,

Tay Baudelaire

A person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.218.12.255 (talk) 01:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Just buy another Othatzsokewl (talk) 19:38, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

The blind Men
Do you not think that the part of the book where Handler refers to some poem called the blind men ant he elephant or something like that changing the elephant to a reindeer should be stated in the cultural references ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.202.222.142 (talk) 03:44, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

 * What does a reindeer have to do with anything? — the Man in Question (in question)  21:18, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Penultimate Peril