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Touched (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

"Touched" is the 20th episode of the seventh and final season of the television series Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The episode aired on May 6, 2003 on UPN.

Plot
As the Scoobies and the Potential Slayers argue over what to do next after Buffy's departure, their reluctant newly-elected leader Faith tries to get everyone to agree to go to sleep and reconvene in the morning, when the power goes out due to the utility company workers leaving Sunnydale like most of the townspeople. The group continues to argue, and Faith suggests the Bringers are the weakest link among their enemies, so they should capture one and interrogate him. When Spike returns from his mission with Andrew, he is enraged to find that the Scooby Gang have lost faith in Buffy's leadership and evicted her from her home during his absence. He denounces them all as traitors, then storms out in disgust.

The Scoobies capture a Bringer and magically interrogate him. Eyeless and tongueless, he speaks through Andrew, who tells them that Bringers are busy forging weapons for the coming apocalypse and do not see Buffy's army as a threat. Later, after saying goodnight to Giles, Faith is approached by the First Evil in the form of the deceased Mayor, who leads her to believe that Buffy only sees her as a killer and will take the first chance she gets to kill her.

That evening, four couples engage in intimacy. Spike finds a depressed Buffy in an abandoned house, where she confesses her self-doubt and inability to let anyone become close to her. Spike tries to rally her spirits by describing that he has seen all of her, the good and the bad, but he still stands by her. Buffy asks Spike to spend the night holding her. In the first lesbian sex scene ever on American network TV, Willow and Kennedy have sex for the first time, Faith and Wood engage in a one-night stand, and Xander and Anya rekindle their sexual relationship.

The next morning, Faith gives out her orders. She sends Dawn, Xander, Willow and Anya to go and find Buffy, while she and the Potentials launch a preemptive strike on the First's armory, which turns out to be a trap. Buffy regains her will to fight and brawls with Caleb, evading nearly all of his offensive moves; in the end, she dives into a floor panel in the winery and finds a powerful battle axe that appears to have been hidden there. The episode ends with Kennedy finding a box, which Faith opens and discovers a bomb ready to detonate with only 8 seconds left. Faith yells for everyone to get down as the screen goes black.

title: Touched (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)


text:
Talk:Touched (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

Untitled
Please help complete the Angel/Buffy episode articles. See what needs to be done on this sub-page of WikiProject Buffy:

WikiProject Buffy/Episodes

Also please help update any major changes made to episode articles on that page so that progress can be mapped.

________________________________________________________

POV
I applied the POV tag and it was removed due to, apparently, lack of rationale behind it. So: the article isn't very openly POVy, but some of what goes on in the writing and acting category, though plausible, heads off into a personal interpretation and should at the very least be rephrased - again, this isn't a Buffywiki. This is the wiki, punkt. Hence, a little more care with how things are presented is needed, and I don't think that shows here. Hence (lala), POV.Zeppocity 16:20, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

 * OK, If you feel that there is a problem with phrasing of the article then I suggest you correct it. It looked ok to me but I'm not a buffy fan or expert so I'm not going to try to amend the article. Though I'm sure there are plenty of fans who will comment on, amend or approve of any changes you care to make. AllanHainey 08:56, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Not a matter of being a Buffy fan or expert; stuff like The First, wondering along with the viewer why Caleb is digging out the one weapon that can defeat them and Caleb's unsatisfactory answer, along with a lot of the stuff in writing and acting, is both cutish phrasing and, well, utterly true; this all needs, however, to be phrased in a less interpretative matter.
 * I would have gotten to it myself, but I'm pcless right now, which means I'm mostly checking occasionaly on article changes and talk pages on another's pc, but not editing, well, anything myself, since there isn't enough time to do it properly (yet there is to write this... colour me freaky and specific, I guess). I will get to achieving a more wiki form once I can, yes. Zeppocity 12:53, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

You are correct. I saw absolutely no way to rescue that: while it would have made a fine addition to any "critical review", it is not an encyclopedia article. I've removed it for now: I plan on finding out sources to cite later. MosheZadka 13:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I've now been bold and removed the POV tag: there is no POV (AFAICT) in the article any more, now that I removed the section completely. MosheZadka 13:52, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

 * The word "rightfully" (which has recently been removed, reinserted, re-removed) is definitely POV. It does not describe how Spike feels, it is an external judgment on the merits of his position. Riverbend 14:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed from article
The writing has been criticised for showing the scythe as a deus ex machina by some, and some contend

After six years of telling us over and over again that casual sex is bad for you — see "First Date" five episodes earlier for the most recent bout of moralizing — the writers suddenly decide that it might be okay after all. These scenes are probably the most graphic of the series, though still tame even by American TV standards.

Just when victory seems certain, Caleb decides to dig out the one weapon that can defeat his cause. No plausible rationale is given, and even the First seems confused. Though the scythe was hinted at in the previous episode ("Empty Places"), this is another case of the writers using a deus ex machina device to advance the plot of season 7.

Though it is believable that Spike doesn't tell Faith or the renegade Scoobies and Potentials what is at the vineyard, there is no reason why Andrew should hide it from them. It seems unlikely that nobody would ask him after he and Spike both announced they had found something important.

No attempt is made to divine if in fact there is a secret weapon in the sewers or what it might be, even though Willow is using locater spells to look for Buffy at the same time (as revealed in the next episode).

Dawn again displays linguistic abilities that would seem far beyond what a normal teenager could manage in the time available. This time, she's good at Turkish, not Sumerian as in "Get It Done".

Fair use rationale for Image:Buffy720.jpg
Image:Buffy720.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

What I Changed
I removed the copyright violating expanded overview: blow by blow details are FORBIDDEN, people. The summary left isn't perfect, I know. But better then the expanded... I also removed the extensive quotes, I simply don't understand why we need them, when we already -have- a Wikiquotes website. Lots42 (talk) 14:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Touched (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)


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User talk:Ripcurlking

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! --Alan Au 07:44, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
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Image copyright tags
Thank you for uploading images to Wikipedia. Please remember to verify their fair use status and  tag them appropriately. Thank you! --Alan Au 07:47, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Fotc01.gif
Thanks for uploading Image:Fotc01.gif. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then there needs to be an argument why we have the right to use the media on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then it needs to be specified where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

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If you have uploaded other media, consider checking that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Image legality questions page. Thank you. Nv8200p talk 01:03, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Quiksilver.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Quiksilver.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read the instructions at Non-free content carefully, then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies for fair use. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot (talk) 15:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Quiksilver.jpg)
Thanks for uploading Image:Quiksilver.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot (talk) 19:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ripcurlking


text:
Talk:Cramp

Hoofbeats? Assume horses, not zebras.
The intro paragraph is a bit of a mess.

You know all those stories where people look up a symptom and get the worst possibilities first? I think it would do a lot of good to put the common causes at the top and the rarest at the bottom. At the very least, motor neuron disorders should not be above electrolyte imbalance.

// [NomadicVoxel] [ talk \ ctbs ] 20:33, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Skeletal muscle cramps
I've made some investigation to the sources. As I think most sources describe skeletal muscle cramps under the name "cramps" or "muscle cramps". Here's one source that says it directly: "Muscle cramps are painful, involuntary contractions of skeletal muscle"

- Muscle cramps: a 'complication' of cirrhosis, P. J. Marotta, I. W. Graziadei, C. N. Ghent

Also sometimes cramps are called as "true muscle cramps" to distinguish it from other conditions. I think that the title "skeletal muscle cramps" would be more appropriate name to the article about cramps. And I found no sources that generalise soft muscle cramps and skeletal muscle cramps with exception of Britannica artcicle. But Britannica has many errors so I can't rely only on that source. So I doubt if combining those conditions is original research or not. D6194c-1cc (talk) 10:54, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I think per WP:COMMONNAME the current title is correct. Alexbrn (talk) 14:37, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources"

- WP:COMMONNAME "Cramp" name is often used in reliable sources, but it is also ambiguous. Menstrual cramps are named cramps, but are not skeletal muscle cramps. Those cramps are reviewed separately from each other in reliable sources. D6194c-1cc (talk) 16:29, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Given that Wikipedia articles are based on a coherent topic treated as such by reliable sources, rather than a specific term, I agree with the proposal to base the article around a distinct topic rather than the common use of the word "cramp". (t · c)  buidhe  00:46, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Merge proposal
Charley horse seems to be a colloquialism in some countries for a muscle cramp, usually in the leg. So, following an initial discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine, I suggest that we merge Charley horse as a section on Cramp for reasons of context, overlap and short text. Lets continue the discussion here. Klbrain (talk) 08:29, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Picture
The lead pictures doesn't really seem appropriate. What does it have to do with cramps? Tad Lincoln (talk) 05:18, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

 * Agree. Gone.  Velella  Velella Talk 09:39, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Feminine Cramps?
Shouldn't this article have a section on the cramps that women specifically feel?Inkan1969 (talk) 22:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cramp


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Talk:Fire lizard

Untitled
Maybe it'll be a good idea to move 'fire-lizard' to 'firelizard' as I belive thats is the correct name in the book. I belive I made this error when I first created the article. Could someone else comment on this, maybe? --ElectraFlarefire 07:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

BigFatDave 00:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Just a redirect would do it ... unless you know of something else that needs the "fire-lizard" spot.

BigFatDave 00:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * done

Genetic memory?
Is the genetic memory explanation canon? I got the idea from reading the books that the firelizards, being telepathic, preserved the memories through sharing the memory-images between them - note the many instances of Ruth telling Jaxom about the outrageous images he'd gotten from his various guesting lizards. (Peer-to-peer memory sharing - what a concept!) --213.114.138.197 11:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Flaming Golds?
Something that just occured to me whilst reading the dragon page - do we know if gold fire-lizards can breathe fire? The fact that the original dragon riders seemed surprised that their queens couldn't flame, and the suggestion that it was a deliberate change introduced by Kitti Ping implies that gold fire-lizards could breathe fire, but I don't know of any instance where it's explicitly stated in the books. There are no mentions of a gold fire-lizard flaming, but equally nothing to say they can't. Danikat (talk) 10:42, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

most of these facts needed tags are pointless
If you don't have a legitimate doubt that the information is valid, then there is no legitimate reason to tag it for a reference. The external link I added to the official writer's website listing information about the books, will verify any information. It even list what books, chapter, and pages various information was revealed in.  D r e a m Focus  13:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have legit doubts. I haven't read all these books (i did, as it happens, read 3-4 of them when i was a kid) and i have no idea what pages of which books confirmed this plot trivia, so there is no easy way to check the claims here whithout reading thousands of words and making extensive notes and then double checking. That's why we need citations.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no reason to doubt the information on the official website of the author. Anything anyone doubts, can easily be found there.   D r e a m Focus  18:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Then do the work and provide the citations if they exist where you say they do.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Flaming or eating Thread?
There seems to be some conflicting information in the books about whether Fire-lizards flame Thread or eat it.

When they were first discovered by the colonists in "Dragonsdawn", they definitely flame thread; the first occurrence of this is when Sean and Sorka are forced to take shelter in water and the dragonets flame thread (p199) and this is repeated in many of the other books. However, in Dragonquest, Kylara states "When my lizard saw Thread falling, she seemed to go mad. I couldn't control her.  She flew right at a patch and - ate it." (p371) When questioned as to whether she had given the fire-lizard firestone, she denied it as she hadn't any and also wanted her queen to mate.

Any ideas?

Ricardosj (talk) 13:07, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Fire lizard


text: User talk:68.9.70.75

title: User talk:68.9.70.75


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Talk:Public Opinion (book)

 * 1) I have no "issues" with Phrost, nor is that why I edit articles.  I made these changes because of Wikipedia policy and English style and euphony.
 * 2) The final sentence is a bit obscure. What exactly is it to "mirror" some else's writings?  Does Lippmann use Nietzsche, or follow him, or is he influenced by him? --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 07:46, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Why does this article open up with a quote from the book? It looks really awkward.Memeligutsa (talk) 13:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

page citations and ...
Might someone have time and interest to add more page references? I've added a few that I know about, but I'm not eager to study the entire book searching for the other apparent quotes.

Also, I replaced the citation to the copy on archive.org to the entry on Wikidata. I did this for multiple reasons. Primarily, I've found Wikidata items like this to be more work initially but much more preferable if more than one Wikimedia Foundation project article uses the same source. It's easier to maintain against link rot. And all the citations to a Wikidata item from within Wikimedia Foundation projects can be found from that Wikidata item. That can be useful for some purposes. In addition, in this case, p. # 162 (p. 175/449) on archive.org is complete blurred and unreadable. DavidMCEddy (talk) 13:40, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

people with little intellectual engagement
Did Lippmann actually use the phrase "little intellectual engagement" to describe how "certain members of society ... attend to life"?

I can believe he may have. He did seem to be an elitist. However, it would be useful to have a page citation.

Decades ago, I heard many people making comments roughly like that. I made them myself, until I heard some of the dumbest people I knew make such statements.

This phrase is ultimately insulting. The phenomenon is described by the research for which Daniel Kahneman won the 2002 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences. I plan to add mention of that to this article.

I believe this article would be more useful if it had a page citation for where Lippmann used the phrase, "certain members of society who attend to life with little intellectual engagement." If he did NOT use that phrase, then the verbiage should be modified to be less offensive, I think.

Thanks to all who have helped to make this important article as good as it is. DavidMCEddy (talk) 13:52, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

who creates "pseudo-environment"
As of 2020-08-28 the second sentence in the "Public Opinion (book)" section read, "Those who are most familiar with the greatest amount of facts regarding a certain environment, construct a pseudo-environment ... ."

Did Lippmann say this? If yes, where?

This seems to me to reflect a misunderstanding of what I understand Lippmann to have said. In particular, he wote, "The real environment is altogether too big, too complex, and too fleeting for direct acquaintance" between anybody and their environment. Each person constructs a pseudo-environment that is a subjective, biased, and necessarily abridged mental image of the world, and to a degree, everyone's pseudo-environment is a fiction. People "live [and act] in the same world, but they think and feel [and decide] in different ones." Lippman's “environment” might be called “reality,” and his “pseudo-environment” seems equivalent to what today is called “constructed reality.”

Opinion leaders have a large influence on the pseudo-environments / constructed realities of their followers, exploiting confirmation bias in the process. The mainstream media everywhere do this to benefit those who control the money for the media.

I don't feel I can afford the time now to try to fix this, but I think this article could benefit from more careful checking what Lippmann actually said, documented with page citations, and more careful wordsmithing, so it more accurately portrays what Lippmann actually said -- and connects it to more recent research, e.g., like that for which Daniel Kahneman won the 2002 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences. DavidMCEddy (talk) 16:28, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Hey, just checked the talk page here. I'm not exactly reading his book, but a summary and various opinions based on his writings. I summarized and added some citations, including the Lippman-Dewey debate, which I believe you will have some interest in reading it. Most of the discussion in this article forgets to mention a much earlier discussion about democracy and technocracy.
 * Also, don't expect to see Lippman's book to connect to recent research too well. Lippman never thought or had to think about social media platforms like Twitter and Facebook, which had a known impact in democratic and autocratic countries. Tetizeraz  -  (talk page)  23:01, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Public Opinion (book)


text:
Talk:Austin station (MTR)

Untitled
I disagree with the CSD notice. West Kowloon appears to be a proposed railroad station on a railway line (called West Rail) in Hong Kong; Hong Kong Housing, Planning and Lands Bureau Q&A page, Legislative Council Panel Information Report (pdf), including exact location. Since I don't know any Chinese, I can't find all that much info on it, but it seems notable. --Mairi 07:47, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Interchange
There was actually a plan to extend the East Rail to Austin Station, and this station would feature two pairs of island platform (an extra pair of 12-car platform for the East Rail). The proposal was ruled out in favour of the current interchange arrangement at Hung Hom. 119.236.251.39 (talk) 22:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Hung Hom Station which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:59, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Austin station (MTR)


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Bexhill

Bexhill may refer to:

 * Bexhill-on-Sea, East Sussex, England
 * Bexhill, New South Wales, Australia
 * Bexhill, Saskatchewan, Canada

title: Bexhill


text:
Cony High School

Cony High School is a public school located in Augusta, Maine, United States that educates students from Grades 9 to 12. Cony draws its students from Augusta, as well as the surrounding communities of Chelsea, China, Jefferson, Palermo, Somerville, Vassalboro, Whitefield, and Windsor.

The school's origins are in the Cony Female Academy, which was founded in 1815 by Daniel Cony, and originally opened in 1816, to provide free education to orphans and other girls under the age of 16. The school later expanded into a co-ed high school. In the fall of 2006, the city of Augusta opened a new Cony High School adjacent to the Capital Area Technical Center on Pierce Drive. Three years later, it was consolidated with local middle schools, and currently serves grades 7-12.

The new building is architecturally linked to the design of the Old Cony High School building which featured a wedge-shaped flatiron design. The flatiron building has been preserved as a building of historical significance and is in the National Register of Historic Places in Maine.

As of 2018–19 enrollment for Cony High is approximately 680 students.

Academics and rankings
In the 2020 US News & World Report (based on results for the 2017–2018 academic year), Cony High School was ranked between 47 and 83 among ranked high schools in the state and between 13,345 and 17,792 of ranked schools nationally. The school's mathematics proficiency rating was 26%, its reading proficiency rating was 42%, and its graduation rate was 79%, well below the state average of 87%.

Athletics
Cony competes in the Kennebec Valley Athletic Conference as a Class A school in all sports but football. The Rams field teams in football, soccer, field hockey, cross country, golf, volleyball, basketball, cheerleading, ice hockey, indoor track, swimming, wrestling, baseball, softball, tennis, lacrosse, and outdoor track. Cony and rival Gardiner Area High School hold one of the longest-running high school football rivalries in the country. Since 1892, the two teams have met 123 continuous years, with Cony holding a 65-55-10 advantage. Cony is well known for having one of the rowdiest student cheering sections in the state, referred to as the "Cony Crazies."
 * Baseball - Class A State Champions (1990, 1991).
 * Girls' Basketball - Class A State Champions (1987, 1989, 1995, 1996, 1998, 2005, 2007).
 * Boys' Basketball - Class A State Champions (1966, 1973, 1978).
 * Football - Class B State Champions (1932, 2013)
 * Field Hockey - Class A State Champions (1982, 1988, 1989, 1993, 1995).
 * Softball - Class A State Champions (1983, 2012).
 * Girls' Tennis - Class A State Champions (1991).
 * Boys' Tennis - Class A State Champions (1993, 1972).
 * Girls' Track & Field - Class B State Champions (2021).

Chizzle Wizzle
Cony High School's "Chizzle Wizzle" variety show is the longest running high school production in the United States. It originated in the 1890s as a football fundraiser and has evolved into a major part of the Augusta community. In 2016, the production hit the stage for its 125th consecutive year. The show consists of two halves, Olio and Showcase. The production runs for 4 nights at the end of every March and culminates with the Chizzle Wizzle Ball on Saturday night. The name, "Chizzle Wizzle" comes from one of the school's many old cheers: "Chizzle Wizzle, Chizzle Wizzle, sis boom bah! Cony High, Cony High, rah, rah, rah!"

Notable alumni

 * Mildred Burrage, artist
 * Julia Clukey, luger
 * Kenneth M. Curtis, lawyer and former politician
 * Richard Dysart, actor
 * Hoddy Hildreth, politician and conservationist
 * Roger Katz, politician and lawyer
 * Rachel Nichols, actress and model
 * Niles Perkins, athlete and physician
 * Bob Pickett, football player and coach
 * Jeffrey Pierce, politician and builder
 * Matthew Pouliot, politician and realtor
 * Stanley Sproul, politician and lawyer
 * Dorothy Clarke Wilson, writer and dramatist

title: Cony High School


text:
User:Apples and Oranges~enwiki

hi

title: User:Apples and Oranges~enwiki


text:
User talk:Apples and Oranges~enwiki

talk

Your account will be renamed
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Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Apples and Oranges. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Apples and Oranges~enwiki that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name. If you think you might own all of the accounts with this name and this message is in error, please visit Special:MergeAccount to check and attach all of your accounts to prevent them from being renamed.

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Renamed
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title: User talk:Apples and Oranges~enwiki


text:
Talk:London slang

Sub culture
This sounds like a particular sub-culture's slang, rather than London slang. Many of the words do not need explaining here as their meanings are just the same as those found in any dictionary or in many other places. For example, 'dry' means boring anywhere in England, 'blank' means ignore anywhere, and so on. This needs addressing, because it's deleteworthy otherwise. Brequinda 07:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

 * If this is London slang at all, it's not anything I've heard, in 20 years of living in London. In any case, a proper article on slang in London would be far more detailed than this, as it would need to describe all the different kinds of slang prevalent in different London ethnic and socioeconomic groups, as well as subcultures. -- Karada 07:59, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

 * As a Londoner myself I am inclined to agree. Most of these words tend to be used by younger people, mainly in the East and North London and by so-called 'roadmen'. This article seems to be simply describing the evolved form of MLE that is prevalent in a limited number of settings of London and is not representative of the broader situation in London at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.10.226.252 (talk) 22:56, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Definition
For a definition on London slang, you actually get a fair bit of it wrong. To address what the person above said about 'dry' meaning the same in the rest of the UK as it does in London, that's because slang terms tend to filter away from London to other parts and gets adopted or further bastardised.

 * I don't think this is a very good article overall. The UK has very distinctive regional slang, and while some London slang does filter into general usage, this cannot generally be said to be the case. This article should not be a redirect from "British slang". Furthermore, the examples of slang are ropey (sic: "of poor quality"). For example, "The Gherkin" is not slang ("A kind of language occurring chiefly in casual and playful speech, made up typically of short-lived coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in place of standard terms for added raciness, humor, irreverence, or other effect.), it's a nickname ("A descriptive name added to or replacing the actual name of a person, place, or thing.")

 * This article needs significant improvement – if it doesn't receive some, I will add it to Pages needing attention. Didsbury ryder 20:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Attention notice added Didsbury ryder 19:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

POV
"One problem with identifying what is specifically London slang is that the dominant cultural position that London has within the United Kingdom causes London slang to be exported to the rest of the UK, leading to London slang becoming general United Kingdom English slang." Sloppily worded, and POV. Slang travels around the country, not just from London. --kingboyk 08:28, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah exactly. I live in Leeds, and ive barely heard any of these words used. Besides, the UK isnt totally subject to London culturally, thats POV. There is widespread regional slang —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.38.250.69 (talk • contribs) 05:42, 26 April 2006.

I edited where i felt appropriate... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.109.10.213 (talk • contribs) 01:27, 24 May 2006.

The list of words
The list of common London slang words must be shortened considerably. 5-10 examples would be enough, but I don't live in London (any longer) so I have no idea what 5-10 should be left. Could somebody more familiar with it shorten it? Mackan 17:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, the huge and diverse population of London means that 'common' london slang includes many examples. I personally dony see a problem with it, as the page Boston slang contains far more examples than this one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.41.117.87 (talk • contribs) 21:43, 27 June 2006.

 * It is clearly stated in that Wikipedia is not a dictionary and that it's no place for dictionary definitions nor lists of such definitions. I haven't seen the Boston slang article but if that one has many examples, it too should probably be shortened. Mackan 14:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok...then I'll shorten it to about 10 examples if it means that much to you. And i know its not a dictionary etc, but surely the articles are supposed to give good representations on the subjects theyre about. And like you said, you dont live in London any more, so leave the criticism of the article to those of us who do.
 * Keep a civil tone, it's not about who's living in London and who isn't, it's about the way Wikipedia articles are written. Mackan 04:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Im lost. I get told to shorten it to 10 examples. I do so. Someone lengthens it to about 30 examples. I change it back, and im told im vandalising.

It was previously stated that a "pony" is London slang for £100. I changed this, because it is actually £25. - Zestos, 7 Dec 06, 20:60 (GMT)

 * That's certainly a baffling table. I live in East London and I have never ever heard half the words in it used, though some are, of course, well old Minder/Sweeney stock-in-trade... Tarquin Binary 00:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

 * If you're going to add pony, I think ton (£100) and monkey (£500) should be added as well as the more widespread variants of score (£20) and benner (£10). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teh.cmn (talk • contribs) 15:10, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Attention: Slang Glossary policy discussion underway
Slang glossaries violate the following policy:

Wikipedia is not a dictionary

Wikipedia is not a dictionary or a usage or jargon guide. Wikipedia articles are not:

 * 1) Dictionary definitions. Because Wikipedia is not a dictionary, please do not create an entry merely to define a term. An article should usually begin with a  good definition; if you come across an article that is nothing more than a definition, see if there is information you can add that would be appropriate for an encyclopedia. An exception to this rule is for articles about the cultural meanings of individual  numbers.
 * 2) Lists of such definitions. There are, however,  disambiguation pages consisting of pointers to other pages; these are used to clarify differing meanings of a word. Wikipedia also includes  glossary pages for various specialized fields.
 * 3) A usage guide or slang and idiom guide. Wikipedia is not in the business of saying how words, idioms, etc. should be used. We aren't teaching people how to talk like a Cockney chimney-sweep. However, it may be important in the context of an encyclopedia article to describe just how a word is used to distinguish among similar, easily confused ideas, as in nation or freedom. In some special cases an article about an essential piece of slang may be appropriate.

Due to the many AfDs which are initiated to enforce this policy and due to the resistance to such deletion by defenders of the glossaries, I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not to rewrite the policy in order to solve this problem and to readdress this question: should slang glossaries by allowed on Wikipedia? --List Expert 23:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Edited Modern London Slang and removed 'School Slang'
I've gone to great length sourcing and explaining the origin of modern London slang.

The 'school slang' section needed to be removed, as this 'School Slang' is just a form of Modern London Slang. The list of words was also far too long.

The slang spoken in school is just the same as the Jafaican slang in the paragraph above. It does not warrant its own badly-written explaination followed by a huge list of examples. Mkimemia 06:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Jafaican
Gal dem? Greazy? Choong? This is just a list of Jafaican. Why not use a list of GENERAL London slang, not one used only by a particular sub-culture. This needs to be changed.

the term jafaican is not a type of slag at all, but is a phrase used to describe some one who pretends to be of Caribbean birth. and attempts to speak patwa or with a Jamaican accent

the word is a mix of the words : "fake" and "Jamaican" to = ja-fake-can aka ja-fa-ican

being some one who speaks the dialect i assure you, where ever you got this information is wrong,

on a side not

also the words used in text messages don't doesn't relate either. the slag in "tx speak" was around before tx-ing became a popular trend, as it has been used by on-line gaming community, people who communicate by email and use msn etc,

its purpose is to short the time taken to write something and to use less words in doing so (in regards to a sms message, you get charge more for the more pages a massage takes up so its financially beneficial to say as much as you can in a short space)

acronyms like b.r.b,and a.t.m is all old lingo, with that said, there have been the addition of new abbreviations such a s.n.m(say no more) which is take from slang used to end conversation

cockney rhyming slag is still used. just by a different generation and usually in different areas of London. it is more common in the east end of London, and isn't often heard in the south and north

the music form grime isnt a sub genre of rap, nor doest it create slag.

id say it broadcast it, the mc/rappers from the scene speak the slag they do on the streets when recording, some words might be popular in one part of London(eg north), and not any where else, but due to the music the words spreed around London and beyond.

the majority of the influence is from the Caribbean and American.

take the word girl for example. pronounced and spelt gyal, would be Caribbean, where chick is more American, some words have British origin like gash. all 3 words are commonly used and mean the same thing, but are derived from different influences

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.122.162 (talk) 17:47, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

 * "Patwa" or patois? 2.24.88.209 (talk) 22:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

WTF is this?
'' "Let's go to the West End tonight, you guys, and let us rob some stuff." becomes, "You man, come we go West tonight and rip bare shit." ''

This entire article is a train wreck, and focuses more on East End 'jafaican' than other London slang, whereas as soon as you go outside the North Circular the nature of the accent changes very quickly to a more Home Counties-like nature.

Not only that, but you hear bare, long, mission (as verb), and other similar terms as far out as Colchester nowadays.

Negative stereotypes
As mentioned before, this article focuses mainly on Jafaican slang and it is questionable if it stands to Wikipedia standards, but it is unnecessary and unacceptable that the example of usage of this slang involves a criminal activity. It would be equally effect full to write something like "let us go to the West End and have some fun" or anything of the sort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.237.139.119 (talk) 11:09, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

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What is this article about?
Given that this article is supposed to be about London Slang, it contains an awful lot of mainstream English words. For example, ‘vexed’ is not slang nor is it limited to London, it is a standard English word, commonly used across the globe. Here it is in George Elliot’s ‘Middlemarch’, written in 1871, where it is used to mean ‘angry’; the exact meaning attributed to it in this article.[] Then there is ‘look’ to mean appearance. Routinely used in that sense, in phrases such as ‘looking good’, ‘she’s got the look’ and ‘looking your best’ etc.[], [], []. ‘Rate’, meaning to rate highly, is also common standard English term and here are two examples of that. [], []

Other examples of mainstream English in this article include ‘mad’ to mean crazy and ‘boss’ or ‘bossman’ to mean person in charge. ‘Myth’ and ‘Fool’, while not exactly meaning untrue and unintelligent respectively, are close enough to their true definitions to make me wonder whether this is not more to do with the editor’s own misinterpretation.

Along with standard English there are a number of colloquialisms which are so widespread that they have almost become mainstream phrases. These include ‘On tap’ to mean easily obtained or near to hand. So common is this phrase that in 1940, Eric Partridge described it as a cliché![] Then there is ‘bread’ and ‘dough’ to mean money. Again, so widely used, this book doesn’t even acknowledge them as colloquialisms, merely as alternative names for money.[] ‘Clout’, to mean influence in business, is again so commonly understood that nobody even bothers to define it anymore.[], [], [].

‘Business’ is defined in this article as ‘something to attend to’. What, as in ‘taking care of business’ or ‘having business to attend to’? [], [] One might call this an informal usage but that's a moot point; Chambers doesn't consider it so. The only dictionary definition of business deemed colloquial is when it means the best (this is the business) or when it means something difficult or complicated (this is a right old business). ‘Cop’, we are told, means to obtain. Yes, or ‘get’, as in ‘cop a feel’, ‘cop off with’, 'you'll cop it in a minute' and ‘cop a load of that’![]. It's used extensively throughout Britain and Australia and I suspect, much of the Commonwealth. Here it is meaning 'obtain' in a hippie dictionary.[]

Splash meaning to spend is another common colloquiallism. Hence the terms 'splash out' and 'splash the cash'. [], [] Here it is in an intermediate guide to speaking English.[] So not really slang then.

And 'balls', that's just another word for bollocks and is constantly being used by most English speakers to describe something which is, well, bollocks! Oh, and articles such as this. Time to put a stop to this madness (or craziness if you prefer to use what this article incorrectly insists is its slang definition)!--Ykraps (talk) 15:49, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Your recent edits to this page, and your comments above, are correct. This article isn't for "words that are used in London", it's for slang that distinctively originates in London. Many recent anonymous editors seem to not understand this and have watered down the page to the point of uselessness. —  Scott  •  talk  16:20, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree. More pressingly, that entire huge list is unreferenced and probably unreferencable. – filelakeshoe (t / c)   19:01, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks both for entering the discussion. If there's no serious opposition here over the next couple of days, I will remove the words I consider mainstream, and then perhaps we can have another discussion about which slang words are London slang. Regards--Ykraps (talk) 17:56, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I would like to remove the words, shank, shanked and nonce on the grounds that they are prison slang, used in prisons nationwide, not just London.[] Nonce is an odd one though, defined here as an unintelligent person. Everywhere else a nonce is a sex-offender and in particular a paedophile [][] so it may be that it does have another slang meaning but I think it more likely that the ip has heard it used in a derogatory fashion and made an incorrect assumption. Thoughts anyone?--Ykraps (talk) 08:15, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I think "nonce" is one of those words that used to have a specific meaning but is now just used as a generic insult among kids, similar to "mong", "spastic" and so on. Not sure if it is necessarily a London ting. – filelakeshoe (t / c)   08:35, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

This article is terrible
I've lived in London for years, and come across only a small number of these "words". In addition to my questioning the validity of dozens of these words outright, many of the examples here are wrong and/or not slang. Take "wagwan" (Which I've always heard pronounced "wa'gwan") - it's literally "what's going on?" not "what's up?" not much of a distinction I know, but still, it's clearly the right answer. Others like "Brudda" are more of an accent thing, where the softer "th" sound becomes a hard "d" sound. By that measure, why is "Das" (that's) not in the list? "Das f***ed up, Bruv". 62.172.72.131 (talk) 11:22, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

This article should be deleted
The article Multicultural London English covers everything that this article covers and more with many more sources. This article should be deleted. Progenitor Eri (talk) 22:59, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
 * That's not a reason to delete, but it is a reason to merge. If you want to propose that to happen, please follow the steps at Proposed mergers. —  Scott  •  talk  14:25, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I oppose this merge in principle as "London slang" as a topic should probably have a wider scope than MLE, also covering rhyming slang, costermonger back slang, Polari, thieves cants and other London slangs from the past. In addition MLE is more than just slang (i.e. words), it's also a set of distinctive phonological and grammatical features. But as our MLE article talks a lot about slang, and this article discusses mostly MLE, merging and redirecting the current article to the MLE one would be reasonable for the time being. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 20:14, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with the reply above, but not with regards to merger. As the individual spoke of the various varieties spoken currently or in the past in English, some actually people cants or cryptolects, I believe the article should be maintained and expanded with more information on the various dialects of English spoken in English either currently or in the past, MLE being one. MLE is not the sole slang of London, and various varieties from around the world and country are spoken there. UaMaol (talk) 23:33, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

London slang?
It,s atually jamaican slang from the jamaican raggamuffins and the yardies in the 80,s. Only Blacks speak this slang nobody else. The English in London is actually 'cockney' accent so this article is bull. 82.39.142.147 (talk) 18:05, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You're referring to MLE. Cockney and various other dialects are also spoken in London, which is why this article should exist.UaMaol (talk) 23:28, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Multicultural London English
There's basically nothing in this little-used stub after anything redundant with other articles has been removed. Conceptually, "London slang" is the vocabulary section of MLE.

In a comment above from a few years ago, someone says that this article should be separate from MLE because "Cockney and various other dialects are also spoken" - that is literally multiple cultures in London speaking English. —  Scott  •  talk  16:31, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
 * No objections in a month. I went through what was left and nothing was actually worth merging. Redirected. —  Scott  •  talk  23:26, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:London slang


text: User talk:193.120.152.15

title: User talk:193.120.152.15


text:
Talk:Antonio Martorell

Disputed

 * Martorell was about to board one of the trains that was bombed during the 7 July 2005 London bombings as he vacationed in England. He was to meet Merced and Forsythe at the end of the train trip to see one of his paintings at a London museum, but he stopped at his hotel's restaurant to get breakfast.

I'm sorry, but I find this quite hard to believe. For starters, the train is unspecified (was it the one at Edgware Road, Aldgate or Russell Square?). Secondly, London Underground trains come about every 2-3 minutes in the rush hour and do not run to any prescribed schedule, so if he merely stopped off to have breakfast at his hotel on the way to the station, there is no way he would have known for sure whether he would have got on one of the trains that was bombed. Unless he was actually on the platform underground, about to get on the train concerned, before realising he hadn't had breakfast, and decided to return to the surface and go back to his hotel, but this seems unlikely. I would check sources for this, but none are given and Google isn't very helpful. Qwghlm 07:52, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Does it make sense to place a disputed banner at the top of the article and then remove all of the  disputed text? -- unsigned comment left by 128.165.205.120
 * No, it doesn't make sense. I've removed the banner, and the text can be restored if someone finds a credible source. --81.154.236.221 18:58, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Even with a source, it's non-notable. Something similar probably happened to around 10,000 people that morning. Now, Rudolph Giuliani being in town -- *that's* notable. --Dhartung | Talk 22:53, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Cripes! This drivel is on the main page.  Nelson Ricardo 02:51, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I think Wilnelia Merced told El Vocero that she was about to pick him up at one of the trains that bombed. Upon hearing the train he was supposed to pick was bombed she worried, called his cell phone and he answered, saying he decided to eat at the restaurant and was looking at the news. So, in theory, yes, it was said he was about to board one of the trains that were attacked. But since there is no prove on the internet, at least not anymore, I don't see a point in putting this back on his biography, unless of course, I could find the article. Antonio Ultra headbanger Martin 9:43, December 10, 2005 (UTC)

I removed this comment by from the page: ANTONIO MARTORELL COULD NOT HAVE BEEN BORN IN 1951, SINCE HE GRADUATED, FROM HIGH SCHOOL, IN 1956 ( CENTRAL HIGH SCHOOL, SANTURCE, PUERTO RICO........I WAS ONE OF HIS CLASSMATES. Leithp (talk) 16:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Edited and Expanded Article
I corrected the article for style, added some information (for example, that he is a Georgetown University graduate), added a section with the titles of his publications, added a reference, and added an external link.--Mgdelarosa (talk) 22:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Antonio Martorell


text:
Talk:Paul Crouch

Untitled
I mislabelled my last update as a "footnote", which it's not. Anyway, I added links to the LA Times article referred to in the body of the article, plus the TBN web site, so people can verify stuff. --rob 07:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

POV
I think this article has a lot of strong hints in it of bias. Because it focuses more on the allegations of the person rather than the actual person and what he does. Therefor I think this article should seriously be reconsidered and edited to have a more balanced reading. I would like to know more about his family and occupation, (without hints of bias). -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.111.129.113 (talk • contribs)
 * You're welcome to edit it yourself if you know of verifiable information about him. But as I said on the talk page for Jan Crouch, how do you sound neutral in an article about someone who is effectively a crook? -Locke Cole 20:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Exactly. The man's a crook, and it's not "bias" to call a snake oil salesman a snake oil salesman.

Ringo, 17:10, 8 August 2006

Prove it
Prove it.

There is more to him than one article, the allegations of which have not been verified as fact, but all you seem to focus on in your bias.

The man has done a lot of great things and won many awards. He has many notable, well written about accomplishments. I would write about them, but what's the sense with some of you deleting everything on Wikipedia every 5 seconds that you don't like, fact or not. -Sonustar

He is also a liar. --66.218.18.250 20:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Yep, it's a biased article
I would say the initial summary, though very short, is good, but needs to be bolstered with more detail in his broadcast history and what role he played in Christian broadcasting. The only supplementary information has to do with criticism and controversy, and the quotations are all of the most unflattering kind. He may be a snake-oil salesman, but to understand him we need to understand his appeal. He has had a huge following for a long time. Another possible connection to follow up on: is his son "Andrew Crouch" the Andy Crouch that is formerly of Re:generation quarterly, writes for Christianity Today occasionally, and now has a website called CultureMakers?

Interesting
This is biased, if you could see the houses they own in the Colleyville, TX area, you would wonder about the aleged spending habits. The houses they live in while in TX resemble mobile homes in some fashion, very run down. I agree, more of Paul's story needs to be here!

NPOV tag
Please do not add tags without giving a detailed explanation for it. We don't let tags stay or bogus claims stay. Both are to be removed if the claims/tags aren't without reason. Arbustoo 23:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Updated Bio/Neutral Sources
I have updated the basic facts regarding Paul Crouchs' career in broadcasting, and the network he founded. I have added credible neutral sources which verify statistics on the size of Trinity Broadcasting Network, awards, citations, and rating in the US as the 6th largest Broadcast Group. I have attempted to leave original content and only moved its location so that the paragraphs flowed in a logical fashion. In some places, the new information was more accurately cited, so old information that stated the same fact was replaced, but not restated in a way that took away from the original intent of the editor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ellen Brichetto (talk • contribs) 19:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merge
I've proposed that Jan Crouch be merged into this article. Jan being the co-founder of TBN means that it might not be appropriate just to delete her article, but her notability is entirely dependent on the network rather than on independent coverage of her, so it's better to merge any useful content into this article and perhaps rename it "Paul and Jan Crouch." Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:44, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

The article for Jan Crouch is an independent overview of her career with TBN, but also her personal contribution to the Smile of a Child Foundation, and her personal project, The Holy Land Experience and other works that are not central to the article about Paul Crouch. Jan Crouch is a stand alone personality and should have her own article.71.97.55.109 (talk) 03:30, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Smile of a Child doesn't appear to be notable, so her status as its founder and president doesn't contribute to notability. HLE's website gives no indication of her being involved in its administration in any way, so whether or not that would contribute to independent notability is a moot point. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:31, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Jan Crouch founded the Smile of a Child Foundation, and Smile of a Child Tv, a 24 hour network for children. SOAC foundation's humanitarian contributions to Haiti have been recognized by the United Nations and received special consultative status with the Economic and Social Council for the Democracy Coalition Project. Jan Crouch is the President of Holy Land Experience, and runs all the day to day operations. According to Wikipedia's criteria for a stand alone article, she meets that criteria.71.97.55.109 (talk) 17:52, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This is not substantively different from the comment I replied to, but you haven't addressed the criticisms I made of it in my reply, namely that Smile of a Child is not notable per Wikipedia guidelines, which require significant coverage in reliable sources, and that the HLE site doesn't say that Crouch has ever done so much as sweep floors for the park, let alone run its operations. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, the article did need more neutral sources. New reliable, significant and independent sources have been added to this article from third party sources that establish Crouch's role as notable by Wikipedia standards. Crouch is listed as DCEO of HLE on a new source in the Wikipedia article from the Florida Dept. of State/Corporations Division. The United Nations has officially recognized the contributions of Smile of a Child foundation as notable (source in the article from the UN website), and Smile of a Child TV is a national network, and the only one of it's kind. . Additionally, Jan Crouch is a widely recognized TV personality which is documented in numerous third party publications (pro or con). Her professional, and broadcasting career is separate and uniquely different than that of Paul Crouch.71.97.55.109 (talk) 19:37, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * For the third time, Smile of a Child is not a notable organization, so her role in it is irrelevant. Businesses and charities are not automatically notable, and people associated with them, even less so. The fact that they have a TV channel doesn't make them notable - that TV channel is on the station run by their founder! Hardly independent recognition. The sources added confirm that she is president of HLE, but that isn't a notable position. See WP:BIO (which doesn't even mention "founder of something" as a notable position, so if someone else felt like it, they might well come in and say "who cares if she's the founder, she hasn't received any coverage in reliable sources"). Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:55, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Roscelese, respectfully, the UN thinks that Smile of a Child Foundation is notable. Crouch was personally recognized at the UN and awarded 'Special Consultative Status' because of the humanitarian contributions her foundation made in Haiti (an also after Katrina). Smile of a Child TV is not a TV channel, but an independent national cable network founded by Jan Crouch,and carried on Verizon,Comcast,and ATT Uverse. It airs in 35 major US cities, or 20 million homes. Crouch started this network, and manages programming. Stats attached: http://www.tbnnetworks.org/downloads/TBN_Networks_info.pdf (pages 27 - 28, 36, 38) All of these credits aside, by virtue of Jan Crouch's broadcast personality, and very widely acclaimed, or disdained TV persona, she qualifies for her own article. Crouch's position as DCEO of HLE, is just one of her bio credits, while notable, it is one credit included with her other credits that do qualify her for an article. I am not sure that I understand your POV. It does not seem NPOV. I would welcome a neutral Wikipedia editor's opinion on this. It seems more like you just don't like anything Crouch has contributed, no matter what sources are cited, or which criteria qualifies her for a page. She is certainly a well-recognized TV celebrity that is either disliked or admired by many. On those grounds alone, she meets the criteria for a Wiki article. Respectfully71.97.55.109 (talk) 21:46, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The UN doesn't think Smile is "notable," it gives it a one-sentence mention in a long list of charities who have done good work, and the "special consultative status" was awarded to the organization rather than to Jan personally. I see no evidence that her name ever came up. And claiming that their TV channel/network is independent from TBN is like claiming that Nick Jr. is independent from Nickelodeon - her notability for founding TBN is why I didn't recommend this for immediate deletion and instead proposed a merge, but she doesn't gain added notability for the Smile of a Child network which, as I said, is a sub-network of TBN. You don't get to double-dip. As well, if she is so widely acclaimed or notorious, information about her should appear in reliable, independent sources. If she's so famous, why don't any reliable sources care? (There's Encyclopedia of women and religion and a vaguely satirical article in The Advocate, which doesn't amount to much.) And finally, before you baselessly accuse me of disruptive editing, look to the beam in your own eye - you do nothing on Wikipedia but promote the Crouch family, and if I feel it's worth it I may file at WP:COIN so that users unaffiliated with the subject may have a real discussion. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 04:25, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

The UN does think that Smile of a Child Foundation is notable, or they would not have awarded them, and the other charities on their list recognition of their charitable works, and a legitimate "special consultative status". Jan 'is' SOAC Foudation and went to the UN personally for this honor. Smile of a Child TV network is not independent, but owned by TBN. She and her husband started this network out of a bus 38 years ago. What happened to give credit to women when it's due? The whole concept, planning, programming etc. of SOAC TV was very much Jan Crouch's project. You are a prolific supporter of the arts, so I am speechless that you continue to demean and minimize the enormous contributions of Jan Crouch. She has been involved with TBN, and the evolution of all their associated networks, and the acquisition of Holy Land Experience, and the fact that she lives in Orlando and goes to 'work' every day at the age of 76ish to manage the day to day operations. I can assure you, that one if not all of these lifetime achievements is notable. You are a very intelligent author/editor. I have looked at your pages. They are very well done, and I appreciate your passion for what you support in the arts. This discussion though, seems so contentious and illogical. Why do you dislike this network and it's founders so much? COI. I believe you can write a great article about something or someone you are passionate about, as we both have done. You have to love or at least 'like' what you write about. This doesn't mean COI. Let's face it. ALL of the articles on Wikipedia that we either wrote or have contributed to are not yours or mine, and are subject to massive edits. That's the beauty. They are community property ruled by very strict rules of NPOV. All of the articles in this discussion have been vetted, edited, hacked etc. by many Wikipedia editors. All of whom have for the most part been very reasonable. In this case, you seem to dispute every source, every argument, every POV, to the point of ?? Articles can be improved always. That's a sound discussion. Notability? Frankly, the Crouch family is beyond notable and not always in a good reference. Millions love them, and millions hate them. They border on notorious. respectfully. BermudaWoman (talk) 23:32, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The UN doesn't think it's notable, it thinks it's helpful. The two are not synonyms. All these things about her being 76 and living in Orlando are very nice - I myself know some wonderful elderly ladies who live in Florida - but this is irrelevant. As I've said, what, six times now, she has not received coverage in reliable sources, nor has she any significant achievements apart from founding TBN with Paul. Hence the proposed merge rather than a proposed deletion. If she's so very notorious, surely you can provide evidence of her notoriety, rather than merely your assertion. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:03, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Backmasking
Why are there no mentions of the backmasking controversy he started? It did bring him to public attention, seeing as he acused a number of high profile artists of promoting Satanism through backmasking techniques. --Spence The Chef (talk) 07:31, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Compensation of the Crouches
I added the following sentence to the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) history section, "Paul Crouch received $400,000 in executive salary as president and his wife $365,000 as first vice president." It was based on the May 2012 Family Battle Offers Look Inside Lavish TV Ministry article in the New York Times. User:Lyonscc, who seems to have concerns about publicizing controversial information about top executives of religious nonprofit organizations in general, and compensation data in particular (see Salaries of the Hanegraaffs, Cleanup of Article, and "String of controversies" and compensation) removed the sentence, despite all the reasons I identified in our dialogues in the Talk:Hank Hanegraaff article. I'm admittedly a newbie to Wikipedia editing, so my earlier rationales for adding compensation data were uninformed, but my latest post ("String of controversies" and compensation) hopefully represents a more knowledgeable perspective.

I'm moving the sentence to the Criticisms and controversies section where, based on the source article title and content, it more appropriately fits.

Ralph Dave Westfall 15:36, 11 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Westfalr3 (talk • contribs)

WP:BLP
Paul Crouch may be dead, but other people named in the article are not; please note that all references to living people still need to abide by Wikipedia's biographical article policy relating to living people. -- The Anome (talk) 17:40, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Paul Crouch