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Talk:Dockworker

Naming/Redirect conflict
(I transferred this section from Talk:Longshoreman: Anthony Appleyard 06:44, 24 May 2006 (UTC)) When this page was created, it redirected to Stevedore. Google says Stevedore is more common than Longshoreman, by about 17,000. If you compare the non-redirect version of this page with the Stevedore article, you'll see they're exactly the same article, just copied and pasted. Point is, there's no reason to change it from what it was upon creation, a redirect page to the more common term, to a direct mirror of said page. --ArmadniGeneral 02:41, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Not really, you rude teenage jerk. I was in the middle of making extensive changes (admittedly, I was using the Stevedore article for a basic framework) when you deleted my article, and had already made quite a few changes. I'm not convinced Longshoreman and Stevedore do not deserve seperate entries, especially based on the inadequate stevedore article in its present state, and certainly not based on a Google comparison of word occurance. Personally, I would have been open to discussion on the matter had you bothered to contact me, especially if you bother to notice the time of my editing of the article, which was minutes before your deletion of same article. --Cuvtixo
 * You really are being pretty hypocritical here. Before you start insulting people (and I cannot for the life of me see how ArmadniGeneral was being rude to you - he merely stated facts), you may like to consider why you felt it necessary to delete the whole Stevedore article and redirect it here without making any attempt to discuss it. From the timing, it seems you did this out of spite, after ArmadniGeneral deleted your Longshoreman article (which, incidentally, looks to me to be identical to the Stevedore article - I can see no changes at all apart from the removal of links and changing the emphasis of the article to Longshoreman). This is really not the way to go forward. -- Necrothesp 22:26, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Whether to put this text under stevedore or under longshoreman?
I apologize for reacting badly, but I wish someone had brought this into discussion before deleting my own extensively revised article on longshoreman. I would like to see seperate articles actually, but others apparently feel this would introduce too much redundancy. The Stevedore article, as it stands, actually contains some awkward references to the term "longshoreman." Linguistically, at least, the terms are distinct, and derivative terms like "stevedore's cap" also have equivilent terms "longshoreman's knife", "longshoreman's coat", etc. I'd personally like to hear more historical data on the usage of the terms stevedore vs. longshoreman, and numbers of people employed (UK is such a tiny country). Perhaps the more international "stevedore" is in wider use today, but historical cultural usage should be taken into account. And just because the Wikipedia is not US-centric doesn't mean it has to be anti-US or Anglo-centric, either. Perhaps, like "inch" and "centimeter," there really needs to be two seperate articles. -- Cuvtixo
 * Excuse me, but I believe you were the one who started deleting without discussion by redirecting this whole page to Longshoreman. I didn't notice you asking here first! This sort of thing merely creates bad feeling, particularly when a non-American term is redirected to an American one. And the UK may be a small country, but let's not forget that it dominated the world's sea trade for centuries, so our term for these things is hardly inappropriate in the circumstances. I should also point out that the word 'stevedore' is used in North America (according to the Oxford English Dictionary, which provides documentary evidence of the fact), whereas the word 'longshoreman' is not used outside North America except in a very general (and archaic) context to mean anyone working on the shore, not just men working in docks. Incidentally, most people in the UK would use the term 'docker' to refer to a man who loads or unloads ships. Stevedore is a technical term only usually used by those in the business. -- Necrothesp 21:50, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
 * As an addition, the term used in Spanish is estibador and in Dutch is stuwadoor. It seems it's not just used in Britain. -- Necrothesp 22:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
 * It's funny to me that Necrothesp have taken offence, especially after my apology! I'm also confused if Stevedore is a technical term only used by people in the business, then redirecting stevedore to longshoreman would make sense, right? This is an encyclopedia for the masses, not only highly insecure technical people outside North America. It also didn't take much effort for Necrothesp to change things back, and I was fully aware of this at the time. What a disappointing experience my early attempt at contributing has been. -- Cuvtixo

Longshoreman
What jobs does "longshoreman" include? These sorts of men also "work along the shore":- a man who mends waterfront machinery; the man who cleans up rubbish along the waterfront; a docks dredger skipper; a lighterman. I am British and I know the word "longshoreman" only from books. Anthony Appleyard 06:38, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As I've heard it, the term, where I am at least (Vancouver, Canada) refers to men who load and unload ships, originating from back in the day when someone would holler "Men Along the Shore!," signalling that a boat was ready to be loaded or unloaded. "Longshoremen" were those who responded to the call and formed into work gangs. Bobanny 05:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Stevedore (band)
Removed advertising for a band called Stevedore.Read ''The oklahoma based original 80's synthpop band, Stevedore, has nothing to do with unloading ships. Unless you unload ships by getting your groove-boots and/or dancepants on. (See also stevedore.org)!'' --Piratejesus 00:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Longshoreman/Stevedore differences
Is there any reference that a Longshoreman and a Stevedore is a different trade? If the US government seems to think not, why does wikipedia think so? I'd like to see something verifying this. I have added a further tag to this sentence. --Dj245 20:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there is a difference. Stevedores are part of management/supervisory. I work for a stevedoring company in Charleston,SC and we hire the labor (longshoremen) from the local ILA (International Longshoreman's Association). My father did this same job for 45 years (begining around 1960)and it has always been this way. Stevedores and longshoreman are different entities. Here stevedores are not union, though i understand this is not the case in many US ports. Reference to this separation can be noted on this page about a suitbrought by the ILA against the Stevedores Association.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/4th/981296p.html&friend=nytimes —Preceding unsigned comment added by DockRat (talk • contribs) 20:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I dont know what they say in Charleston, SC but in Albany, New York and at the Port of Albany-Rensselaer (the 2nd busiest port in the state) they use stevedore as the word for longshoreman. www.portofalbany.com does not mention longshoreman anywhere, but does mention stevedore. Camelbinky (talk) 02:13, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The reference (Delich, Helen. "Noted for Fast, Efficient Work Baltimore System of Operating is Termed Ideal for All Ports." Baltimore Sun, 1955.) that was referenced after the statement that discussed whether this distinction is appropriate does not seem to be related to this particular question, nor was it an appropriate reference for the topic, so I have removed the statement that it is incorrect to use Longshoreman/Stevedore interchangeably until there is a credible source to say either way. Zchahe7 (talk) 17:34, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Today is 10/20/2018 at 5:11pm. I will tell you here, I am a Longshoreman. My Waterfront Number is 80785. I have worked as a Longshoreman for 25 years this year, I started in on the Docks in 1993. My name is George Carreno. I work out of the Tristate area. That is the New York and New Jersey Area. A Longshoreman, just so it is said, and just so it is known to the world, is a Modern day Pirate. Said. I work on the docks. I have never heard of the word Docker at all. A Dockworker I am. I have also have worked as a Stevedore on the Docks. A Stevedore, is Foreman, an OverSeer of workers. This Foreman though, is of Dock Workers working on or against and around Ships that are being worked on by the Longshoreman. In the New Jersey area, there are 2 Locals. One that is considered the White Local, and one that is Considered the Black Local. Unless you know it, or of it, or of us, you do not even know that we are a society amongst our known American society that everyone is normally involved in. We make money like no other job in our Country. We have the BEST Benefits that there are to be found anywhere in our country at all, America, Know it. The Black Local is Local 1233. The White Local is Local 1235. Both Can be found in Newark New Jersey. Now you know where it is, what we are, and where you can find our locals. They are International Longshoreman Locals. We have Locals ALL over our Country, and we are ALL, UNION!

A Stevedoring Company, is a Company pretty much ALLOWED to work on OUR docks that WE work on. We are the Constants, not the Companies, and we make a shit load of cash while there, with breaks that you would not believe. They are called Blows. You can say, whistle blows. You can make a shit load of cash, just know that you CAN physically be killed. That is why we are paid so much. Here is the thing, you work with your friends families as they grow up. So your dad is my boss today, and tomorrow, my Bosses Grandson, Son, or Daughter, is working for me. Got it? If you want, Look up what a Longshoreman actually makes. See for yourself what the average Longshoreman makes. Take a quick look here, https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Longshoreman/Hourly_Rate/70d93ae2/Newark-NJ. Only in the begining, will you not work much, the hardest thing to do is hang on untill you build up some seniority, after that, HOLY SHIT! No lie. Cash to wipe your ass with. You just have to put in time.

The only thing that I do not like is that ALL that I EVER see coming into OUR LOCALS, are Foreign workers. I mean shit, White Americans, born and raised are Few and Far in between. Could you imagine? In America, a shit load of money to be made and Foreigners have the Good Jobs? This is a TRUE statement. I am telling you, so you know. Workers reach out to there family members entering the Country from other countries and tell them before we even get a chance to reach out to White America, Know it. They come in White, but do not claim at all to be white, and then they start problems between our black and white by hiding amongst our white and saying that the blacks are not working, then when the blacks come to our White people accusing them of not working, the Foreign whites who are starting problems ALWAYS say that they are from another country, and claim not to be white at all. They even lie and say that someone wants to punch someone, just to instigate problems and hide behind a Minority card. That is how they hide between the White and black of America and walk away. They ARE White, but claim not to be once they start the problems between our BLACK and White Born and Raised Americans. That is a Divide and Conquer tactic, know that I spotted it, so now I said it, for ALL the World to see. Someone Should ask how many American born and raised People are in Both Locals, you will see, 99% Foreign, in the White Local. Nice right? A Modern day Pirate Job, in America, that Foreigners are trying to keep for themselves. All the ones that are working that ARE American, when asked what they are, will say that they are from Another Country, so I would ask them each on an individual basis. Your mouths will drop. Italian, Portuguese, Spaniard, all with foreign accents, some without, and they do NOT, claim to be American when asked, or White at all when asked, crazy right? Only in America. I am in the White Local by the way. Here take a quick look at these websites for where the locals are. https://www.unionfacts.com/lu/19763/ILA/1233/, https://www.facebook.com/pages/International-Longshoremans-Association-Local-1233/161015107255414 The Facebook page says associated, I have no Idea what that is, the people though, I know. This is Local 1235's Website. http://www.ilalocal1235.org/. There are Various other Longshoreman Unions on the Terminals as well, but these, are ours, the ones that actually drive the equipment on our terminals.That is what I do. There has not been hooks used in years. Big Boy Tonka Toys, but that Girls can play with too.

There are Mechanics, there are Refrigeration, and there are Maintenance Longshoreman Union Locals as well as others on the Docks. There are Docks or Ports around our shorelined states of America that work 24/7, around the clock at times. Examples are, New York, New Jersey, South Carolina, Florida, and California.

The Military should be filtering those leaving the Military directly into our Locals to fill our spots BEFORE, a Foreign-born person at all. Our men and women are willing to die for our country and come back to no jobs because they were not here. There is no reason for that when we are hiring Foreigners over and over with SO MANY Military personnel without a job. We make over 100k a piece a year, over time, and that is the bottom dollar sign, no schooling required (No college or High School Diploma Required), just a drug test and a Background check, IT! If you have any Drivers license and or a CDL license, it helps, You need to get to work you know, to drive there. Get to work however you can though. Like I said, it helps. Know that this is MY complaint to OUR Country, America, that Foreigners are not giving our people a chance on the Docks to get hired. God Bless America.

And the Superships are coming. Newly Built OVERSIZED Container Ships are Superships that have NOT hit America yet. The Panama Canal has been widened, and our New York and New Jersey Bridges have been raised, know that they have been putting up the NEW and even Higher Gantry Cranes on the Docks to be able to work against the Container ships that come in. Once those Cranes are done, the Superships can come in at any time. All you need are a few up to start, know it.

So, now you know, a Stevedoring Company, is one Allowed to work on or in our Docks. A Stevedore, is A Ship Foreman, and a lot of Workers, will sooner or later be needed throughout our terminals. After, the superships get here, or around that time. I am a Modern day Pirate telling you this, I work at PNCT, Ports America, at Birth 51 in Newark New Jersey. Good Luck in everything you do. Oh, and we have cops that Wach over us, they are The Waterfront Commision of New York and New Jersey, Enjoy. https://www.portsamerica.com/locations/portofnewark-new-jersey

The Pirate King - George Carreno

2 Different Things
I don't know why this is even an issue. A stevedore and a longshoreman are 2 different things, not interchangeable terms for the same occupation. And, at least in the US, law says as much:

"A stevedore is a man or a company who manages the operation of loading or unloading a ship... Longshoremen refer exclusively to the dockworkers, while stevedores, are a separate trade union, worked on the ships, operating ships cranes and moving cargo." USLegal.com/Admiralty.

The first sentence of the article, "A stevedore (/ˈstiːvɪˌdɔːr/), also called a longshoreman,..." is simply factually misleading and should be eliminated. Maybe, "A stevedore (/ˈstiːvɪˌdɔːr/), also erroneously called a longshoreman,..." would do. Venqax (talk) 15:48, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Longshoreman's Hook
Section Loading and unloading ships asserts: Before containerization, freight was often handled with a longshoreman’s hook, a tool which became emblematic of the profession (Mostly on the west coast of the United States and Canada).

The hook is often seen in docker exhibits in maritime museums in the UK and would seem to have been in common use there also (see also the common cockney slang | 'sling yer hook'; still in common use today in the UK generally.) It could further sensibly be speculated that a tool common to dockers in the UK and longshoremen on the West Coast of the US was used by East Coast longshoremen. I suggest the 'Mostly on the West Coast' comment is false and should be removed.Comrade jo (talk) 11:37, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Australian Slang
As an Australian who works in the docks, the word 'docker' is used very commonly, not just 'wharfie'. I don't have any evidence for this other than anecdotal, and I'm not familiar with Wikipedia, so I created this to see if maybe someone could add this. Wharfie tends to be working-class slang, docker is used commonly anywhere other than on the work site, or at least in the places around the country I work. Stevedore is also commonly used. At the very least almost all British terms and slang are understood without any problems, this article makes it sound like we're different when we're not. 60.228.193.222 (talk) 11:34, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Removing the word "Whombler" - It's not a real word.
I have searched extensively for the word whombler, and can find no usage on the internet that doesn't originate from this wikipedia page. The spelling wombler exists as a recently coined word for a dumpster diving recycler, borrowing the name of the British televesion show The Wombles, and wambler exists as a word for someone who walks with an unsteady, stumbling gait, but whombler doesn't show up anywhere, except in exact copies of this article's opening sentence, a internet forum post directly referencing this article, and Tumblr post from a few days ago - two months after the word was added by 50.156.202.239. I checked my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, and it's not there either. A Google books search also shows no actual usage of the word, though it will take the cue from this article and treat it as a synonym for Stevadore. I'm pretty sure it was put in to have a laugh, either because it's a funny sounding word, or a joke about longshoreman as drunks. Monkeyfoetus (talk) 09:14, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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"Docker" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Docker. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 April 4 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Pam D  09:59, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 30 July 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Stevedore → Dockworker – "Dockworker" seems the most appropriate term here, as it's general in use and does not have, for instance, a more narrow historical definition like "stevedore" does. The hits for "dock worker" and "dockworker" combined far outstrip the hits for "stevedore" and "longshoreman" combined, especially when looking at news articles. Eldomtom2 (talk) 23:12, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

 * Oppose. Ngram shows that use of stevedore far, far outweighs that of dockworker. Dawkin Verbier (talk) 07:38, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned in my proposal, check for "dock worker" as well as "dockworker".--Eldomtom2 (talk) 12:10, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Note that stevedore is still higher than dockworker + dock worker (but decreasing and the difference isn't dramatic). Google Ngrams. SilverLocust 💬 01:27, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Support well argued and demonstrated proposal. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:14, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support seems to be a more generally understood term, I'd never heard the term "Stevedore" until I came to Wikipedia.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:41, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. I think the nom is correct about "dock worker" and "dockworker" being the most common when viewed together. Also I think it's a better title for WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:06, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. Dockworker is more common worldwide than stevedore, which, as the article says, often means a specialist or supervisory dockworker rather than the occupation in general. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:07, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nominator, first time hearing that stevedore is a word. Killuminator (talk) 18:34, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support this is an idea whose time has come; the Yogurt Principle applies Red   Slash  06:01, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 13:11, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Loading trains and planes?
From the lead:

A stevedore (/ˈstiːvɪˌdɔːr/), also called a longshoreman, a docker or a dockworker, is a waterfront manual laborer who is involved in loading and unloading ships, trucks, trains or airplanes.

I’ve never heard of anyone who loads/unloads trains or airplanes referred to as a stevedore, and definitely not a longshoreman. Someone must’ve pulled that out of their...

The folks who load/unload aircraft are referred to as ramp workers or ramp agents. The term “baggage smasher” has been applied to the workers who load/unload baggage from trains.

 * 216.152.18.132 (talk) 15:05, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dockworker