text:
Talk:Mentos

Untitled
I would like people to discuss the singular of the word Mentos. Is it "Mento" or "Mentos"? I feel like a lot of people would be interested in this information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.50.131.198 (talk) 05:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know which came first, but the first paragraph under Trivia is nearly identical to Eepybird.com. -- Mike

Could someone please explain what "Chewy Dragees" means? It says this on most the Mentos sold in Ireland, like in the picture in the article. Is it Dutch? --Zilog Jones 22:33, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

It seems that they dragee means candied bead. AppleSeed

 * 'dragee' is used for pill shaped objects meant for intake. Jalwikip (talk) 12:47, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

This article has different information about who popularized the reaction and the partnership between Spangler and Perfetti Van Melle to create a the Mentos Geyser toy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diet_Coke_and_Mentos_eruption — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.93.225.221 (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Promotional site taken down
I wonder what happened to that promotional "FreshWorld" chat site that Mentos used to have (with human-looking avatars that came in all shapes). Until the end of 2003 it still existed, and all of a sudden, it was taken from the air. There's no information about why it went down. --Mfolozi 03:33, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Gum arabic / surface tension explanation is pretty shady.
I rewrote a good chunk of this section - the text was previously unreadable, inaccurate, and misleading. I based much of it on the main article, and the Mythbusters episode. Nucleation is indeed the prime mover of the reaction, supported by the ancillary ingredients in the candy and the soda. I think what I added is appropriate for both the casual reader and the Diet Coke and Mentos veteran. RebelBodhi (talk) 23:01, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

It's much more likely to be a result of a rapid increase in nucleation sites for the dissolved carbon dioxide. This could be tested using pebbles or some such instead of Mentos; if I have some time this weekend I'll test it out. There are a few sites online that agree with me.

 * That entire paragraph is copy/pasted from http://eepybird.com/science1.html/. Someone should rewrite it. --65.94.227.3 02:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

WTF is with these mentos/diet coke videos on the net. someone please do a writeup. 24.13.86.24 04:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The reaction occurs with any carbonated beverage, not just Diet Coke and Diet Pepsi. I'm replacing the specific product mentions with generics. lesmana 06:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I added a parenthetical note to Lesmana's edit. Most of the experiements are indeed condcuted with diet coke or pepsi. But I understand the reason for Lesmana's editing, as the old version could have implied that those particular brands worked better. However, since cola drinks specifically whether coke, pepsi, or some other variety are used the most (I believe due to their brown and visible color) I added a note indicating that colas were typical (soda could be any carbonated beverage, clear or colored and doesn't provide enough information on its own.) Palehorse864 22:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Mythbusters explain mentos+diet coke
Thought i would point out this story where the mythbusters explain the mentos and diet coke reaction. The main discrepancy i see with wikipedia is it says that diet coke is used to avoid a sticky mess but the mythbusters article says sugar actually slows the chemical reaction (there's also a more detailed description of the reaction):

"Sugar molecules are very large," Hyneman says, "and that doesn't allow this to happen as quickly. That's the key. Sugar is gooey and sticky -- even though it doesn't seem that way when it's in a soda, but there's a lot in there -- and it helps hold onto the CO2 a lot better."--24.87.80.204 19:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, on my above mentioned edit. I dug this up from the Mythbusters interview. On the other hand, Hyneman says, sweetness of no kind -- natural or artificial -- results in a disappointing fizzle. "In the case of just plain seltzer water," he says, "which we also tried, that doesn't work, because the CO2 already wants to come out." I'm going to make one more edit to indicate the need for sweetener. Palehorse864 22:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, on the note of Mythbusters, I think the pop rocks mention should be removed. Though it was tested by the mythbusters like mentos, they don't really share much more in common. This belongs in the article on Poprocks, not mentos. Just my 2 cents... (φ§φIt's not the begginging of the end, it's the end of the begginingφ§φ (talk) 14:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC))

Merge?
I think Mentos eruption should be merged with the main article. It's more of an interesting peculiarity about Mentos than an entire article. Ianthegecko 20:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hell Yeah, i agree!

me too!

I don't know. As a science article it isn't really about mentos at all, is it? It's about the reaction that results from the combination of certain kinds of candy and soda. And as the article mentions there are other candies that cause similar reaction when mixed with soda (not to mention that any carbonated drink will do). On top of that the experiment (not the mentos) has become a major fad, featured on Mythbusters and other shows, and an internet phenomenon. I don't understand the reason why it wouldn't be a full article. But I'm open to hearing why. Is there any other reason besides that it is a short article right now?(Toritaiyo 05:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC))

 * I would vote against merging the articles. I would argue that the phenominon is notable in and of itself, as evidenced by its appearance on numerous radio news shows, newspaper articles, as an internet meme, and even being the dedicated subject of an entire episode of Mythbusters.  That sounds like something that deserves its own article to me.  Granted, this one DOES need expansion... Fieari 16:13, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Against. Agree with Fieari. Tempshill 05:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Against. See above.

Also against, mostly due to the more scientific nature of the article.

Bloodsport
I removed the following text from the "Competing Brands" section: Mentos' commercial popularity reached its peak in the early 1990's when it parodied the hit Jean Claude Van Damme movie "Bloodsport", as it portrayed a clip from the movie of Van Damme running from authorities while the classic Mentos theme song played.

First of all this has nothing to do with competing brands, and second it seems rather unlikely that this clip was produced by the Mentos' company themselves (Mentos do not actually appear in the clip) as the paragraph seems to suggest. Isn't it just a fan-created parody? A citation is probably needed. PxT 19:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

merge trivia section with intro paragraph
propose a removal of the trivia section as that entire paragraph should merge well with the intro. RichMac 17:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The commercials: imported or not?
"Many North American viewers believed that the 1990s commercials, with their unfamiliar and rather naive style, had been imported -- perhaps from Northern Europe, the candy's home."

Mentioning this, seems a bit pointless, since it is not explained wether this belief is true or not. I think that one of the linked sites claims that the commercials were made by an American agency and filmed in the States, shouldn't this be mentioned?

 * Also, 'Northern Europe' are not the candy's 'home', since the Netherlands are definitely not in Norther Europe. I remember one commercial featuring a very blond guy, perhaps he was identified as Swedish or something? Anyway, I'll remove the passage. Jalwikip (talk) 12:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

 * This is complete nonsense. Of course the Netherlands are in Northern Europe. Notably, the Northern Renaissance took place in Europe in...you guessed it, the Netherlands. PLEASE REVERT THIS EDIT IMMEDIATELY. 24.1.101.2 (talk) 23:21, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Discrepancy in "unofficial world record"
After watching the Mythbusters episode, I'm changing the segment referencing the "unofficial world record" from 34' to 29'. 34 feet was achieved only after using rock salt instead of Mentos.

Deaths?
This section contains flawed logic:

"Rumors of deaths ........no actual news accounts exist anywhere of anyone dying from it, which means it is therefore not true and could never really happen inside the body, as the stomach breaks it all up"

Whilst I doubt anyone has died from this practice, this kind of sentence should not appear in an encyclopedia. For example: I just killed 20,000 people. About 5 minutes ago. It hasn't yet been mentioned on the news. Therefore I must be lying.

Anyway. You get my drift.
 * Looks like an oversight. I'll take it out. Thanks! Kafziel Talk 20:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Theme Song
Nothing about the theme song? Who composed it, things like that... I'd really like to know, in fact, and I don't know anything about it... Klow 20:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Singular vs. plural
Since "Mentos" is both singular and plural, I pronounce the word differently depending whether I use it in the singular or plural. The singular is, while the plural is.

--  Denelson83  04:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the plural should be "mentoi" since they are "chewy dragées", and "dragée" has a Greek etymology. --Anakata (talk) 23:10, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Taken from : "It seems to be a continuing controversy about Mentos...is one confection a "Mento" or a "Mentos"? Many of our readers voiced their opinion on this topic, and the majority said that they prefer saying "One Mento".

However, according to official Van Melle literature we were lucky enough to come across, "One piece of candy is equal to one Mentos."" Calanos (talk) 03:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

 * An old TV ad ("Mentos, a mighty mint to chew") pronounced the brand like "men-toss" (not "men-toes") so it seems it isn't really a plural. 2A00:23C5:FE0C:2100:F450:71C4:48E:8F11 (talk) 14:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Kosher Status

 * According to the Mentos package I have, there is no listing of gelatin as an ingredient in Mentos, so the status of it as a kosher product is unknown. I did some research and haven't found any connection between "gelatin" and "gellan gum" - someone should put up something about it. 169.237.235.71 17:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Mentos are vegan. gellan gum is completely unrelated to gelatin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.199.89 (talk) 19:30, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Unconfirmable Statement in Article
The following statement, formerly located at the end of the second paragraph of the section called "Mentos and soft drink reaction," is disputable, and should be removed:

(Colas lacking sugar are also much easier to clean up afterward).

Unless citations as to where this can be proved are provided, the statement referenced above will be removed by me (TrekCaptainUSA) on or after Friday, April 4, 2008. --TrekCaptainUSA (talk), 02 April 2008  10:20 AM  EDT (UTC-4:00)

Due to unforseeable circumstances, if a citation which supports the above comment is not seen by 5:00 PM EDT (UTC-4:00) on Thursday, April 3, 2008, the questionable statement will be removed sometime on Thursday, April 3, 2008. --TrekCaptainUSA (talk), 03 April 2008  8:44 AM EDT (UTC-4:00)  —Preceding comment was added at 12:44, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Reverted page-blanking. Reaper Eternal (talk) 19:33, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

New flavours

Rainbow variety of mentos chewy dragees with 3 new flavours Kiwi, Cranberry and Yuzu (a Korean/Japanese sour mandarin flavour) Australia - December 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.9.54.6 (talk) 03:33, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Country
The chart/label (dunno how to call it) says that the country from Mentos originates is... Saturn. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gość232 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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Countries of Manufacture
In the United States, I have found Mentos that were labeled manufactured in the US, Mexico, and Holland (for the US market). I recently bought a 5-pack from Walmart in Florida and they were from Holland. Also one time in a 7-11, I bought 2 rolls from the same box and they were from different countries with slightly different ingredients. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asherkobin (talk • contribs) 21:01, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Diet Coke and Mentos eruption
The section about Diet Coke and Mentos eruption takes up over a third of the entire article. There already is an article Diet Coke and Mentos eruption that is almost as long as this entire article. There is quite probably considerable overlap between the section and the main article. Can the section be shortened? J I P | Talk 21:01, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mentos


text:
Talk:10BASE5

RG
and for the connectors UG = Union Guide
 * RG is not short for Radio Grade but Radio Guide IIRC

Linuxlad
 * asin waveguide

 * How do you know? maybe the RG stands for Really Good.

 * Not likely. But if you want to find out, you could just look up RG (but the article isn't consistent...)  Not that it really matters, it's not RG-anything, and certainly isn't at all like "RG-8X". Paul Koning 01:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Vampire tap wasn't the only (or original?) way to go
When I first started working with "garden hose" in the mid-1980s, transceivers had screw-thread coaxial fittings, meaning that in order to insert one into an existing run, one had to cut the cable (network down, sorry!), install connectors on both ends of the cut, and attach the transceiver (network back up! ...assuming you did it right the first time).

I don't know (or this would be in the article :-), but my impression is that vampire taps were a later innovation to simplify this process immensely. The transceiver in the picture looks awfully familiar, and I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't the same model of transceiver we eventually adopted; from Cabletron, if memory serves.--NapoliRoma (talk) 05:18, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I haven't seen the sort of transceiver you mentioned. Who made those?  As for "original" vs. "later innovation", probably not.  Digital, for one, shipped vampire tap transceivers from the start, and I don't believe we ever considered the approach you described.  So perhaps it was a simpler approach used by some other manufacturers, who didn't want to bother to figure out how to make vampire taps work? Paul Koning (talk) 12:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Who made those?
 * 3Com, I'm pretty sure, which puts it essentially right at the origin of Ethernet itself.
 * Digital was kind of late to the game with Ethernet, weren't they? (And jeezly expensive at first. I remember being quoted a 5-digit figure to get Ethernet/TCP for our PDP-11 RSTS systems—can $50K/system be right?—so they stayed in their own separate DECnet environment for years after everything else was on TCP/IP.) So it's entirely plausible that you had the good fortune to be able to go straight to vampire taps.--NapoliRoma (talk) 15:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I couldn't find a photo anywhere, but here's a drawing...--NapoliRoma (talk) 15:48, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Well, "DIX" means "Digital, Intel, Xerox". DEC was one of the three companies that created Ethernet.  Sure it was relatively expensive; the original DEC Ethernet controller was the DEUNA, which took two "hex size" Unibus controller boards.  So at the usual price of $2k per board that ended up a $4000 device.  But remember, that was before single chip NICs existed.  The first DEC controller that used an approximation of a single chip NIC was the much-cursed DEQNA.  It was much smaller, and also so poorly designed that it was finally scrapped after 14 revisions.

 * It may be that 3Com actually produced the first commercial NIC, before DEC. I don't remember the precise timeline that far back anymore... Having 3Com be first wouldn't be too surprising; after all DEC was a notoriously slow company while 3Com was a hungry startup.  Then again, the DEC product worked, and the 3Com 3c501 didn't.  (It worked only so long as your application was really really slow -- it had a single packet buffer.)

 * As for TCP for RSTS, that never was a DEC product. I forgot who sold that.  $50k seems outlandish but who knows.  Certainly both hardware and software were much more expensive in the minicomputer era than in the PC era.

 * Paul Koning (talk) 16:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

 * That's what I love about WP: you can learn something new every day... I've managed to go a couple of decades working with Ethernet without ever running across the "DIX" acronym. Apologies for undercrediting DEC here.  But yeah, this didn't seem to trickle into their products very quickly, at least not the older ones.  I remember I could telnet into our first VAX from day one, though, which was a happy thing.
 * The first Ethernet NICs I worked with were actually Multibus cards for Sun-2s, which would have been either 3com or Sun's own, according to the WP page; we probably even originally got the transceivers through Sun. But yeah, we eventually wound up buying 3C501s and 3C503s like popcorn once PCs started making their inevitable incursion.  (You might be interested to know that after a careful evaluation we originally standardized on DEC Rainbows rather than IBM PCs; seemed like a good idea at the time...)
 * But I did have a point to all this other than stirring up old brain cells better left in dormancy. In the article, it currently reads
 * "10BASE5 cable is designed to allow transceivers to be added while existing connections are live. This is achieved using a vampire tap"
 * I think this is overstating the case. I don't think the cable or spec was originally designed for piercing taps, but that this was a very clever idea that came later.  However, my only evidence at this point is my personal experience (saw and used N connector transceivers first), and some deductive reasoning (why wouldn't you use vampire taps if they were available?).  In short, WP:OR at this point.  But I think the article should be modified to read something like
 * "Transceivers can be added to 10BASE5 cable via N connectors or with a vampire tap; the latter makes it possible to add transceivers without interrupting existing connections"
 * --NapoliRoma (talk) 17:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Vampire taps are older than ethernet. The 3 megabit ethernet for the Xerox Alto used cable TV cable and taps. I believe that they are still used for cable TV, though not the exact same ones. 10base5 transceivers are made with either vampire taps or N connectors. Early 10base2 used transceivers with N connectors and N to BNC adaptors. Gah4 (talk) 06:06, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

When was it used?
The year of introduction and years of (relative) popularity would be useful here.. '''Jason404''' (talk) 03:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Spacing
The question of spacing the Vampire Taps on yellow hose comes up regularly on Usenet. It has nothing to do with the "wavelength" of the signal. According to the guy who did the design work and wrote the specification (whose name I forget - this is not my field, I just spotted the subject, perhaps you're reading this?) the whole thing was based on a statistical simulation which led to development of a simple rule-of-thumb for installation engineers. The idea was to avoid crowding too many taps together, which would have created a big reflection by constructive interference. The precise spacing and positions are unimportant, but became something of an urban myth, resulting in cupboards full of coiled up surplus cable...

Regards, everyone, Derek Potter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.105.15.249 (talk) 09:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Well, it has slightly to do with wavelength. You don't want many taps close to multiples of the wavelength, as the reflections will add. So, the chosen spacing is such that taps won't be on multiples of the wavelength, and won't cluster too close to each other.  As I understand it, there was thought to making the spacing random, but it was difficult to build a machine to apply randomly spaced marks on the cable. The chosen spacing is such that any combination of 100 taps on a cable will avoid reflection problems. Gah4 (talk) 06:16, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Baseband v broadband v passband
From reading the articles on Baseband and Broadband, I would have thought that "baseband signalling as opposed to broadband" is incorrect.

Seems to me that baseband in this case is referring to the fact that its frequency range starts at zero, not that is of a limited range, and that it should "be considered as synonym to lowpass, and antonym to passband, bandpass or radio frequency (RF) signal."

The Broadband article lists "Baseband" as an antonym only in the case of video.

I'm not an expert so I don't know what the best term to use is, but I suspect it should be "baseband signalling as opposed to passband"? CupawnTae (talk) 21:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Broadband is a funny term, but the primary use is in terms of TV signals with 6MHz bandwidth. There is 10broad36, a form of ethernet designed to coexist with TV signals on a cable, and predecessor to today's cable modems.  Broadband means that the bandwidth is not small relative to the carrier frequency. More complicated filters are needed than for narrowband. Gah4 (talk) 06:25, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Obsolete
10Base5 was superceded by 10Base-T years before wireless networking became popular. The main drawback of 10Base5 wasn't low transmission speed, they are all 10Mbps, it was the huge pain thicknet was to install and maintain. 71.202.81.207 (talk) 22:41, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

 * Despite the installation difficulties, 10BASE5 did have a major benefit over the much easier to install 10BASE2 in that unlike 10BASE2, users couldn't disconnect a cable or terminator from a BNC T connector behind their computer and take down the entire network (or subnet). This is one of the reasons 10BASE2 was so quickly displaced by 10BASE-T in commercial environments when 10BASE-T compatible hardware became readily available. --Tothwolf (talk) 17:06, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Photo problem
I believe that the included photo Image:Xerox PARC ethernet cable.jpg is not a 10Base5 cable but a 3 megabit /sec Ethernet cable. 10Base5 is the standard version. 3 megabit/sec Ethernet preceded that. Ethernet != 10Base5 Remaker (talk) 19:12, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Was there some difference between the 3Mbps hardware and the 10Mbps hardware? The equipment in the photo looks exactly like the 10Mbps equipment I worked with in the mid-1980s.--NapoliRoma (talk) 05:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I found a closeup photo of the transceivers in that exhibit: they're labeled "BICC Isolan type 1113". I can't find a specific reference to that model, but the fact that they're that formally branded leads me to believe they're specimens from later than the (brief) 3 megabit era.--NapoliRoma (talk) 21:55, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

 * All of the equipment in the photos is 10Base5. The middle photo is my gear so I know it is 10Mbps.  The top and bottom photos use the universal style transceiver tap shoe which was introduced in the mid to late 80's well after the transition from 3Mbps to 10mbps.  Robert.Harker (talk) 00:12, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

 * The Xerox 3Mb/s ethernet uses 75 ohm TV cable and cable TV taps. The transceivers don't say anything on the outside.  The 10base5 cable and taps were specifically designed for ethernet. Gah4 (talk) 06:29, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Disadvantages
''The logical simplicity of tapping new nodes onto the in-place network cable is complicated by the on-site craftsmanship required to successfully install a tap, and the dire consequences of a mishap during installation. '' It isn't all that hard. I did it for some years, with the cable in a cable tray above my head, and never had a problem. I started with a brand new, and so nice and sharp, tap tool. If you use an old, dull, tool you might have more problems. Worst case, you cut the table and put N connectors on it. Gah4 (talk) 06:32, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

 * I've edited and taken that uncited material down a notch or two. ~Kvng (talk) 14:32, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

 * I don't believe a reference should be required to make summary conclusions about the logistics that follow from the specifications: one mishap ruined the whole works. References would be a matter of testimony to what was experienced but never documented. Your experience was happy, but many others were not.  Of course it's only of historical interest now, but documenting the design flaws of something obsolete will educate about not repeating this sort of bad design principle in the future. --Richard J Kinch (talk) 15:15, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Wikilinks to Fast Ethernet and Gigabit Ethernet on 10BASE5
(moved from User Talk:Zac67) Hi there, just trying to understand about the deliberate "deeplinking" on 10BASE5. What's the purpose of it? It's not that big a deal either _way, just puzzled why someone would intentionally want to wikilink to a redirect in this case. Waggie (talk) 02:44, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

 * The text refers to 100BASE-TX which is a section in Fast Ethernet the redirect 100BASE-TX directly jumps to, which Fast Ethernet by itself doesn't. The redirect has another purpose when 100BASE-TX might be split into a seperate article. --Zac67 (talk) 09:15, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

can you buy it?
Belden, the one that seems to have made it, has "request quote". This one seems to sell it for $7216.40 for 1000 feet. Gah4 (talk) 11:24, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:10BASE5


text:
Talk:Military Frontier

Noel Malcolm book
There are some citations from the book in the article but if someone tries to click on the source there is none existing link ,therefore I am puting direct pdf link here :  if someone wants to read, I have re-edited some parts of the article because I can't find any similar citations in the source ,especially on pages 98-99, maybe is the sentence mentioned on other pages ? Theonewithreason (talk) 15:04 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Information from the source
"Poznati pod nazivom "martolozi" ili "vojnuci", postali su najopasniji element u otomanskoj vojnoj mašineriji. Istodobno su Vlahe i Srbe koji su pobjegli na sjever pred oto-manskom najezdom u 15. stoljeću i koji su njegovali sličnu vojničku tradiciju, Habsburgovci počeli koristiti s druge strane te nestalne i promjenljive granice. Uz pojedine velike ratne pohode, ratovanje Osmanlija i Habsburgovaca sastojalo se na ovoj granici uglavnom od vječitih okršaja Vlaha s Vlasima...Known as "Martolos" or "Voynuks", they became the most dangerous element in the Ottoman military machinery. At the same time, the Vlachs and Serbs who fled north  from the Ottoman invasion in the 15th century and who nurtured a similar military tradition, the Habsburgs began to use on the other side of that volatile and changing border. In addition to some major military campaigns, the warfare of the Ottomans and the Habsburgs on this border consisted mainly of the eternal clashes between the Vlachs with the Vlachs".  Noel Malcolm; (1995), Povijest Bosne - kratki pregled (page 97-99). We must respect RS. Mikola22 (talk) 15:30, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes ok but where is it ? Are we talking the same book ? Do you mean this book ?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theonewithreason (talk • contribs) 15:34, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, follow the page numbers in the book.Mikola22 (talk) 15:46, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you help ,so far on pages 98 I can see description of siege of Jajce, clash between Matijas Korvin and Ottomans and mentioning that Jajce fell in 1527. Theonewithreason (talk • contribs) 15:50, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This (my information) is from Serbs and Vlachs chapter, page 97-99.
 * Istodobno su Vlahe i Srbe koji su pobjegli na sjever pred oto-manskom najezdom u 15. stoljeću i koji su njegovali sličnu vojničku tradiciju, Habsburgovci počeli koristiti s druge strane te nestalne i promjenljive granice. Pridružili su im se i neki Vlasi iz unutrašnjosti Bosne. 12 Roskicwicz, Studien über Bosnien, str. 77. 13 Vasić, "Etnička kretanja", str. 238; Šabanović, "Vojno uređenje Bosne", str. 218- 219. 14 Kuripešić, Itinerarium der Bolschafisreise, str. 43. Nakon poraza Turaka pod Siskom 1593. godine mnogi su Vlasi prešli na austrijsku stranu (Gušić, "Wer sind die Morlaken'.'", str. 461). 98. page 98. Mikola22 (talk) 16:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I hope you found pages (97-99). Here is an additional link where you have pages in the book and pages below the book. Pages below the book are (153-155) Mikola22 (talk) 17:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I plan to read the whole book and also about the author. Theonewithreason (talk • contribs) 18:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC
 * Before enjoying the book of English academician, return information from RS to the article, thanks. Mikola22 (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure, but I can already see that he has also problems with defining Vlachs like on page 97 : Već 1530. godine, kad je habsburški službenik Benedikt Kuri-pešić putovao kroz Bosnu, izvijestio je da u toj zemlji žive tri naroda. Jedan su Turci, koji "krajnje despotski" vladaju kršćanima. Drugi su "stari Bosanci, koji su rimokatoličke vjere". A treći su "Srbi koji sebe nazivaju Vlasima... Doselili su se iz Smedereva i Beograda" and also some neutral authors have some critique about his neutrality like Emmers : .There are even some sources mentioning him as a president of anglo-albanian organisations. Is he a RS or not , I think that some other more experienced wikipedians can give better answer. Theonewithreason (talk • contribs) 20:41, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * As far as source is concerned you have "Reliable sources/Noticeboard" (if there is a problem), and for this information which you are quoting, it is one historical record. Vlach migrations to Bosnia coming from several directions although in reality there is little written historical records from where exactly the Vlachs coming to Bosnia. Mikola22 (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Major WP:FRINGE and WP:OR (the last comment).  Sadkσ  (talk is cheap)  23:15, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Cordon sanitaire (politics)
What is it about? As far as I know this term in Croatian and the Military Border has nothing to do with the political term. Mikola22 (talk) 08:17, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You're right, it is more appropriate to link to Cordon sanitaire (international relations) (t · c)  buidhe  08:51, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's right either. "Cordon militaire" is used for part of Military Frontier Kordun - Cordon. As for term "Cordon sanitaire", it is some kind of area for defense against infectious diseases. "Godine 1978., od 26. do 28. listopada, Zbor liječnika Hrvatske i Zavod za zaštitu zdravlja grada Zagreba održali su simpozij u povodu 250. godišnjice vojnokrajiškog sanitarnog kordona. Naime, godine 1728., 22. listopada, car i kralj Karlo VI.(III.) patentom je propisao stalnu obranu od zaraznih bolesti iz Osmanskog Carstva..In 1978, from October 26 to 28, the Croatian Medical Association and the Institute for Health Protection of the City of Zagreb held a symposium on the occasion of the 250th anniversary of the Military Krajina Sanitary Cordon. Namely, in 1728, on October 22, the emperor and king Charles VI (III.) prescribed in a patent a permanent defense against infectious diseases from the Ottoman Empire" page 72,73 and 78(In some of its aspects, it was almost »hermetically« closed (Cordon Sanitaire Mikola22 (talk) 11:03, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * If the purpose is to protect against diseases, then it is cordon sanitaire (medicine). (t · c)  buidhe  11:08, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That should be it. Mikola22 (talk) 11:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Census 1857
I cannot access the publication referenced in this chapter. This publication is on page 1 mentioning 272 755 Orthodox inhibitants and 402 332 Catolic inhibitants. I tend to remove the publication with no access and different numbers than this one, thus I'm starting this dicussion. Bilseric (talk) 23:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Some time has passed and no one has answered this discussion. I don't want to edit that by myself to the article, since I can't access the referenced sources. I'll leave this discussion with this source, maybe it can be useful in the future. Bilseric (talk) 22:52, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Complete military administration
Hi Theonewithreason, regarding your revert. I didn't see the source. However, the source doesn't state year 1881 but it states until the Military Fronties's aboliton in the early 1870. Some administration was returned to civil authorities before 1881. The abolition started in 1870s. Trimpops2 (talk) 13:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There were parts that started with demilitarisation earlier, but the formal abolition was in 1881. []. Theonewithreason (talk) 13:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The source says that the abolition happened in 1870, it doesn't even state 1881. It also has a footnote which doesn't exist at the bottom of the page. I'm not negating the core statement. MF and it's inhabitants were under Austrian Military Law, but I don't think that every single administration job was under military administration. For instance, schooling. I don't think that in the 19th century, schooling was under military administration. The administration was complex, but in general, not everything was done by military, although the military had the "full control". In that regard I don't think the quote is giving the full info. I will leave it be until I find some sources. However, I don't think we can state 1881 when the source is stating 1870s. Trimpops2 (talk) 13:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There are other sources which mention exact date of abolition, Valentic also speaks about that. The formal abolition was on 15. July 1881. [],[]. Theonewithreason (talk) 14:09, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I know that, but you can't change the quote from one source in that manner. Civil administration was returning gradually from 1870, and now the article says that complete military administration was up to 1881. Trimpops2 (talk) 14:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I did not change anything, because the quote refers to the whole process of abolition, military and civilian which lasted until 1881. Theonewithreason (talk) 14:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I know, but the source says 1870. It wasn't "complete" until 1881. Ok, I'll leave it be. I was trying to make a point that the area was under military administration in the sense that the area was under Austrain Military law, not in the was that every aspect of civil administration was administrated by Austrain military personel. There's a lot to say about the meaning "complete military administration", which isn't seen just from one statement like this. That's why the sources are pretty extensive when describing MF. I don't really have problems with the sentence itself, but I see people making all kind of conjectures from that simple sentece. But, I don't know how to sum up hundreds of pages the sources use to describe MF in one sentece like this. Trimpops2 (talk) 14:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Military Frontier


text:
User:Mark Seibold

Astronomy and the Universe; It is Time to Open the Pandora’s Box. ..

Or how I realized that the universe is moving at the speed of light and how I stopped worrying about missing the boat.

The science subject and study of astronomy is highly misunderstood by the general public. More and more it is misinterpreted as something only accessible to systems and institutions of higher academic education or something that is the responsibility of the government. It is also often confused with astro_logy_. Not a true science but a psudo-science. By many it is best perceived as distant and hard to reach. Furthermore, space travel in recent years and the failures of NASA rockets and other equipment has hampered the interest in astronomy. Many believe that our attention is better focused on the ground and in saving the planet earth.

The main modern instrument of astronomy, the reflector telescope invented by Isaac Newton in about 1630, elaborated from the earlier instruments of Galileo just a few years before, the refractor telescope, have been mistakenly thought of as hobby shop or department store toys for children. Much of the general public, even today in the highly technologically advanced society in the United States believes that this is either a passive hobby for science nerds, the rich with idle time or restricted to government studies or only applicable to space exploration such as the endeavors of NASA and space flight. In actuality, it is all relative.

Many amateur astronomers spend hours under the starry dome of the night sky, some in their backyards with sophisticated telescopes costing many thousands of dollars, linked to electronic computers and cameras, as they document their observations. Much of the American public has never had the chance to observe through a moderate or large telescope and thus completely unaware of what the night sky has available to discover. Many are introduced accidentally to a neighbor who invites them to view say the moon or a large planet such as Jupiter or Saturn for the first time out an a community sidewalk or a ‘star party event’ through a modest instrument. This is often done within local cities astronomy club members during the summer months. First time observers are often stunned and amazed as to what they will discover. The beautiful textured and cratered lunar surface of the moon in stark detail, the cloud belts of Jupiter and its Galilean moons or one of the most beautiful sights to behold, the rings of Saturn.

What’s worse, is that much of our population resides within inner city street lights and will never get out of town to a location where avid amateur astronomers congregate to observe distant galaxies, star clusters and gaseous nebulas, invisible within the confines of city light pollution. Conversely, this is what is in dire need of our education systems today, as administrators argue as to what to do to improve the classroom environment. I have been asked to speak at international universities and locally across the US continent when I provided sidewalk astronomy through a unique solar telescope for the public while on a solo 10,000 mile road trip within one month traversing into the eastern Canada seaboard. The public was in awe and teachers were begging me to bring this large expensive optical instrument to their schools for their students. This is what is important in getting students out of the box of the classroom environment and closer to nature. Many are not aware that these instruments are available or that most large metropolitan cities in the US have large astronomy clubs with many knowledgeable members willing to share this with the local community.

What may have been the modern day start of this, was a aging California monk in San Francisco in the late 1960’s named John Dobson. As written by Timothy Ferris, one of the most respected writers of science and more so on astronomy, Ferris is the Dean of Astronomy at Cal Tech at Berkeley, California, Speaking of Dobson in his book, Seeing in The Dark: Poverty was habit and became the mother of his invention. Dobson was in a monastery in San Francisco for many years, after working on the atom bomb project as a chemist/ physicist during World War II. Dobson began building large crude reflector telescopes from scrap parts that he scavenged from shipyards in the Bay Area. He took the telescopes into the streets of San Francisco at night, sharing the night sky with the public in the streets. He was eventually kicked out of the monastery for being AWOL. He started the San Francisco Sidewalk Astronomers and now most major cities in the US and abroad, have large astronomy clubs with many amateurs building larger and better constructed precision optical telescopes than can be purchased commercially. This is primarily because of John Dobson showing the public that it can be done by yourself with a minimum of materials in the late 1960’s. Dobson still teaches his telescope building classes across the continent and is in high demand for his cosmology lectures at universities. I took John to many schools in the Portland Oregon area. We performed solar observing and allow him to lecture to students and open their minds outside of the usual classroom environment. The New York Times has just announced a new documentary film about Dobson. July 7, 2005. cont pg 2>

2 link to NY Times story; new film about John Dobson: http://movies2.nytimes.com/2005/07/06/movies/06side.html?pagewanted=print

to be continued : (there is much news in the papers and abroad overseas that I appeared in as I perfomed a sidewalk astronomy venture similar to Dobson’s over the past 5 years and will include it in this article for the future . . . – Mark Seibold; July 2005 markscosmiclight@yahoo.com

title: User:Mark Seibold


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/BODMAS

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. CDC  (talk)  00:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

BODMAS
I think this article is a hoax. I can't find any substantiation for any such group on Google, and the claim that any record sold 2 billion copies (and I can't find the record listed with Google either) seems absurd. I asked the editor who created the article if it was real, but they did not respond John Barleycorn 22:36, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Order of operations, where it is a well known mnemonic. the wub  "?/!"  22:40, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect like BIDMAS. Dunc|☺ 22:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete: The mnemonic can be recreated later as a pure redirect, if necessary.  At present, the article is a hoax.  The members are all buddy names.  The records don't exist.  There are a bunch of buddy-jokes built into it.  The nomination was correct: if you don't know if it's a speedy or not, go with VfD, but to me it's clearly a prank/vandalism, and therefore a speedy. Geogre 00:12, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete unverifiable. JamesBurns 09:24, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Order of operations, where it used to redirect to. The most albums ever sold was 28 million, followed by Michael Jackson at 22 million. Moitio (talk) 17:30, 14th July 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Order of operations, Update: Website is listed on front page of google with BODMAS search. the "?/!"  22:40, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Bodmas are a real band they played at Wembley a while back. I think their in Africa now doing a concept album or something. They have a site, its on google.
 * Not A Hoax! JJGr 17:45, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Can you give us the address for their website? I tried to find something on Google which mentioned this band, I kept getting order of operations information, but when I typed in the supposed albums, I got nothing.  The assertion that the band sold 2 billion copies of their album also seems suspicious.  I apologize if my listing was incorrect.  John Barleycorn 18:33, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah, the website sems to be http://www.bodmas.tk/. But their FAQ posted on the website says that their first album is "due to be realised soon", so the contention in the two articles that they have released four albums and sold 2 billion copies seems to be incorrect.  John Barleycorn 18:36, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

 * BODMAS apparently has quite a following in Norway. Overzealous fan, perhaps?

 * I got bold. I'd have preferred to nuke it altogether, as I'm not at all sure that the mnemonic is common enough that it needs to exist as a redirect. I did nuke the one with the exclamation mark.  Geogre 19:20, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Most kids are taught BODMAS in England. Not sure about other countrys, but it makes sense - Brackets Order Division Multiplication Addition Subtraction. Moitio (talk) 19:37, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete and then recreate redirect as above. Postdlf 00:17, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Order of operations, fails WP:MUSIC. Dcarrano 01:39, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Clear hoax.KeithD 19:31, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * For the last time they are a real band. Can't any of you people read or do you all just happen to be retards? Just because they are not on your precious google, doesn't mean this is a hoax. When I search for myself on google it finds nothing. Does that mean I don't exist? Am I not real just because I have no entry on an internet search engine? It's people like you who made wikipedia what it is today. Have you ever read a BOOK? Or gone to a LIBRARY? Next time try to get your facts straight before you criticise other peoples articles and for once in your lives, try to use more than one type of source. Thank you . Heltery 21:06, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * You're right, but it fails WP:MUSIC, and obvious lies in the article Moitio (talk) 22:15, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The article is riddled with untruths and the proponents of the article hurl insults rather then present facts. Non-entity bands are not written in books you find in libraries. Delete with a vengeance, and beware of the Trolls Average Earthman 08:25, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete, hmm, I have reviewed literally thousands of England-based bands, from the hugest to the obscure; I'm not saying that BODMAS, although it seems like a really unfunny joke to me, are not obscure; but they certainly aren't 'one of the biggest bands' in the UK! Cop onto yourselves, sock puppets, the joke really has gone dry. IINAG 22:22, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete Well, let's see... the UK has a little more than 50 million people, so for a band to sell 2 billion copies, I guess each UK resident owns about 35 copies of it. Now that's what I call being prepared. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd  22:49, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/BODMAS


text:
Talk:Glenn Miller

Why MIA and not dead?
I was confused why the lead section av the article describes Miller as MIA and not dead although he is described as dead in the info box. Although neither the plane or the body have been found the same goes for Leslie Howard who died/disappeared in a similar way but he is described as dead.DrKilleMoff (talk) 23:47, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Fixed. SilkTork (talk) 11:04, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * k 85.207.88.34 (talk) 12:51, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

But according this investigation Glenn Miller died in Paris one day before Christmas. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1997/07/13/Bild-Glenn-Miller-died-in-bordello/7556868766400/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.17.19.44 (talk) 11:16, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Glenn Miller, Norman Baessell and John Morgan died when their planes wings got iced over, on December 15, 1944, the day before the Battle of the Bulge started Dec 16, 1944. Kinfo Pedia (talk) 21:49, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

European documentary on TV - Glenn Millers death
I remember that I have seen a European documentary on TV about Glenn Miller some years ago. In that documentary, it was pointed out that his plane was destroyed by bombs dumped from Allied bomber planes returning from an aborted raid over Germany. They couldn't bomb their targets because of bad weather and they had the order to release them somewhere over the English Channel. At that time, Glenn Miller was on his way to Paris. His airplane flew at a lower height than the Allied bomber planes. Because of the foggy weather, they were not able to see Glenn Miller's plane. What happened was a terrible accident... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.57.72.40 (talk) 21:55, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

 * Subsequent inquiries, including for the 2014 PBS documentary cited in the notes, have found that the timing is wrong and Miller's Norseman would not have been in the 'jettison' area of the Channel when the Lancasters of 3 Group, returning from a scrubbed raid to Siegen because the weather was too bad for their fighter escorts to rendezvous, ditched their bombs. It had been assumed that the Norseman flew in a direct line from Bedford, passing over London, but that is unlikely as the London defence area was normally to be avoided. The usual waypoint, to the west of London, was Reading. Latterly the diary of a 17-year-old planespotter in Reading has come to light, recording that he spotted a Norseman over Reading, headed east-south-east (the direction you would set for Paris from that waypoint) on the afternoon of 15 December. If that was Miller's aircraft (and seemingly there was only one other Norseman in the air over southern England that afternoon), then, given the departure time, the known cruise speed and the detour around London, it would have been over the Channel too late to be hit by 3 Group's bombs. If, as the PBS documentary claimed, the Norseman's pilot was not instrument-rated, then in that bad weather anything could have happened. Carburettor icing in cloud has been suggested, but a pilot unqualified on instruments could easily lose orientation when flying blind and just fly into the sea. https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/mystery-glenn-millers-death-solved-951608 Khamba Tendal (talk) 22:59, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Glenn Miller, Norman Baessell and John Morgan died when their planes wings got iced over, on December 15, 1944, the day before the Battle of the Bulge started Dec 16, 1944. Kinfo Pedia (talk) 21:49, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Syd Lawrence
Surprised to see no mention here. His orchestra was a Muller tribute band before tribute bands were even a thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2788:1008:6D6:E2CB:4EFF:FE88:1A2D (talk) 08:35, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

"Nose-down dive"
"On December 15, Morgan flew at under 2,000 feet (610 m) in cold and wet conditions. At 155 miles per hour (249 km/h) airspeed, an engine failure would result in a nose-down dive. The pilot would have about eight seconds to recover the airplane."

This is absolute drivel written by someone with zero knowledge of aviation. --151.47.188.245 (talk) 15:07, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

 * Right you are. I removed the nonsense. Binksternet (talk) 16:13, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Glenn Miller, Norman Baessell and John Morgan died when their planes wings got iced over, on December 15, 1944, the day before the Battle of the Bulge started Dec 16, 1944. Kinfo Pedia (talk) 21:49, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

The description of "Glenn Miller Declassified " book
The tone of this description does not seem to me to be quite right for an encyclopaedia, particularly the words I have emboldened.

FrankSier (talk) 17:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
 * "following a seven-year investigation authorized and encouraged by the Glenn Miller estate"
 * "the comprehensive book": is comprehensive POV?
 * "With unprecedented access to previously unavailable documents from numerous government agencies"
 * "exposed key facts"
 * "established beyond doubt": is this POV?
 * "claim was physically impossible" and "could not have physically arrived": does physically add anything except too much emphasis?

 * Here is what I've learned. Glenn Miller, Norman Baessell and John Morgan died when their planes wings got iced over, on December 15, 1944, the day before the Battle of the Bulge started Dec 16, 1944. Kinfo Pedia (talk) 21:49, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Disappearance
This section reads very strangely. It makes reference to various speculations, including conspiracy theories, without giving any detail, and then concludes by suggesting that all controversies have been answered by the Shenkle biography. An encyclopaedia entry should surely acknowledge that there has been controversy even if it is felt that it has now been explained.Ntmr (talk) 12:11, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

 * We should add this sentence to clarify things. Glenn Miller, Norman Baessell and John Morgan died when their planes wings got iced over, on December 15, 1944, the day before the Battle of the Bulge started Dec 16, 1944. Kinfo Pedia (talk) 21:49, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:54, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
 * New-GlenMiller Logo.jpg

Possible plane sighting
Should we mention that the possible sighting in 1987? https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/glenn-miller-mysterious-plane-disappearance-might-soon-be-solved/ 2600:100C:A205:743B:461:D767:7031:DAE2 (talk) 06:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories
An editor removed the section on the conspiracy theories surrounding Miller's death in September 2022, see diff. I'm not sure why though—per WP:FRINGE, "a fringe theory must receive significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject". Fred Shaw's claims (and the response to them, which is in the old revision) seem to meet that criteria. See. I therefore propose the section be added back. AbsoluteWissen (talk) 16:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * the editor removed speculation that was pretty well demolished by through studies reported in Spragg, Dennis  Glenn Miller Declassified (U of Nebraska Press 2017).. ISBN 978-1612348957. The Spragg book is reported in the article. The scholarly journal Annals of Iowa says "Spragg is most effective in subtly countering conspiracy theories." That leaves conspiracies in the fringe category. The old speculation should not be added back in.  Rjensen (talk) 17:20, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm aware that it's a fringe theory. Yes, it's speculation. But that's not a reason to not include it if multiple reliable sources have reported on its existence, per FRINGE—"Just because an idea is not accepted by most experts does not mean it should be removed from Wikipedia." How can we describe Spragg's response to it if we don't even describe what the fringe theory is? The current paragraph on Spragg reads quite bizarrely given this fact—how would a reader know what the accusations of "foul play" that were debunked are when the article doesn't describe them? Also, the revision that includes the conspiracy theories was much more detailed in describing Spragg's response than what exists now, so its removal can't really be a question of undue weight. AbsoluteWissen (talk) 18:00, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * are there weird conspiracy theories about Glenn Miller? Yes. Do popular magazines (like PEOPLE) every few years mention them? Does ANY reliable secondary source (like a book published by a major university press) say any of these conspiracy theories is true? No not one. Instead they say the conspiracy theories are baseless and very likely impossible to have happened. --EG his plane was hit by discarded bombs (there were no bomb raids that day and no returning bombers and no discarded bombs.) Rjensen (talk) 18:16, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not arguing that the theories are true, I'm arguing we should mention them in the article because they are notable, as the sources above clearly show. Can you tell me how that goes against Wikipedia policy? AbsoluteWissen (talk) 18:24, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * the sources above cited say there are people who speculate on his death, but they do not indicatethat any reliable source believes them. Wiki definition of fringe = a minority of reliable secondary sources--that is one or more say "likely true". Here we have zero so it's beyond the fringe. I am using WP:FRINGE = " that all majority and significant-minority views published in reliable sources should be represented fairly and proportionately. " Rjensen (talk) 18:45, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No, that's NPOV, which isn't really relevant to the question of notability here, I would say. The full quote (in a mixed up order for some reason) is:
 * The governing policies regarding fringe theories are the three core content policies Neutral point of view, No original research, and Verifiability. Jointly these say that articles should not contain any novel analysis or synthesis, that material likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, and that all majority and significant-minority views published in reliable sources should be represented fairly and proportionately. Should any inconsistency arise between this guideline and the content policies, the policies take precedence.
 * I don't believe your definition of a fringe theory is correct. The point of a fringe theory, like Holocaust denialism, is that no reliable sources believe it—it's still notable enough to be talked about and debunked in an article. "The notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from verifiable and reliable sources, not the proclamations of its adherents". AbsoluteWissen (talk) 18:52, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

 * Here's a current reliable source: "Over the decades, many theories came about as to what happened to Major Glenn Miller, from the likely-mechanical failure, to the outrageous—that Miller had died in a brothel in Paris and the flight was a cover-up. In the 1980s a former Royal Air Force member claimed that he saw a jettisoned bomb from a returning bombing run hit a Norseman over the Channel and destroy it. That theory, like the rest, was eventually debunked. The most realistic cause for the aircraft’s disappearance is mechanical failure. The Norseman had a carburetor that was known to freeze over, and in the cold December weather, that was a dangerous reality." source: National WW2 Museum December 15, 2019 online here I added bold  Rjensen (talk) 19:07, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

 * Out of curiosity, that does seem quite similar to how this very article described the conspiracy theories pre-deletion:
 * Numerous unsubstantiated conspiracy theories and hypotheses have been published about Miller's death. Among them are that he was assassinated after Dwight D. Eisenhower sent him on a secret mission to negotiate a peace deal with Nazi Germany; that he died of a heart attack in a brothel after arriving in Paris; and that his aircraft was hit by bombs being jettisoned by Allied bombers returning from an aborted mission to Germany. The most likely scenario was that Miller's C-64 Norseman flew into cold weather and experienced carburetor icing, causing the aircraft to lose power and crash in the cold water. Any survivors would have died of hypothermia within 20 minutes.
 * But I'm not sure what your point is—that's yet another reliable source that mentions (and debunks) Shaw's claim, so again I would say it supports mentioning the fringe theory in this article. AbsoluteWissen (talk) 19:16, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the issue is we are using two different meaning of fringe, #1) Wikipedia== view that a minority of reliable sources state to be  true; #2)  reliable sources indicate that there are people who believe in them but they have been debunked by reliable sources and no reliable source says they are true.  the various conspiracy theories, I suggest, never meet the Wiki criteria #1 because they have zero  reliable sources that state they are true--they are all debunked. In this case  we require a source that is expert on WW2 aircraft (and not just reliable on popular music). Rjensen (talk) 19:39, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Firstly I'll state that an aviation historian (Roy Nesbit) gave at least some credence to the theory, and published a book that talked about it, as cited in the 2001 Guardian source. That source also mentions a BBC documentary at the time which claims friendly fire. The 2000 Guardian source also quotes "ministry of defence's air history branch" officials as believing the theory is the most plausible. So that doesn't really seem like just one person who promoted this theory, but closer to a 'significant minority with prominent adherents'.
 * But if that's your final position, I think we would have to remove the current mention of foul play that exists in the article, because a) according to you it's too fringe and b) it doesn't make any sense to debunk something that we haven't even explained.
 * Hence, I'm going to ask for other input from editors at WP:FTN—if it were up to me I would be happy with the amount of detail that was in the article prereversion, simply because it's interesting to read exactly how Shaw's theories were debunked. If that gives too much weight to this theory in your view, this is along the lines of what I propose (see diff for refs, I would also ideally cite pages from Spragg as the revision in 2022 does not):
 * Here's a list of references I've found that talk about the theory:
 * AbsoluteWissen (talk) 03:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Here's a list of references I've found that talk about the theory:
 * AbsoluteWissen (talk) 03:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * AbsoluteWissen (talk) 03:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * AbsoluteWissen (talk) 03:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

 * Could someone clarify how 'hit by a discarded bomb' qualifies as a conspiracy theory? Who were the alleged conspirators? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * At least in my proposal, that line comes from the content previously in the article, which mentioned nonsense claims about 'Eisenhower using Miller as a negotiator with Nazi Germany' alongside Shaw's claims. That could be changed. But I agree, it doesn't make much sense to call it a conspiracy theory unless there's some accusation of cover up. AbsoluteWissen (talk) 04:14, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The earlier version of the article entitled the section 'Conspiracy theories and other explanations of Miller's death', which seems to be the root of the problem here. There were some wild claims made which certainly look like conspiracy theories, but not all of the subsequently-disproven suggestions were, by any means. They should never have been lumped together like that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

“Top 10” hits
UCO source providing evidence for Glenn Miller having 69 top ten hits does not show 69 anywhere, unclear how this was derived and whether number is legitimate 98.97.10.228 (talk) 11:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Glenn Miller


text:
Quad-City Times

The Quad-City Times is a daily morning newspaper based in Davenport, Iowa, and circulated throughout the Quad Cities metropolitan area, including Davenport, Bettendorf and Scott County in Iowa; and Moline, East Moline, Rock Island, and Rock Island County in Illinois.

As a regional newspaper, the Quad-City Times is also circulated and has readership in Cedar, Clinton, Jackson, Louisa and Muscatine counties in Iowa; and Carroll, Henry, Mercer and Whiteside counties in Illinois.

According to the Iowa Newspaper Association, the Quad-City Times has a circulation of 61,366 as of 2006. The newspaper is owned by Lee Enterprises, which is also located in Davenport.

19th century
The Quad-City Times grew from several predecessors, including the Democratic Banner and Blue Ribbon News.

The Democratic Banner was founded in 1848, was sold in 1855 to a group of business owners, and rechristened the Iowa State Democrat. The Iowa State Democrat published its first edition on October 15 of that year, with E. T. Eagel as its first publisher. The newspaper underwent many changes throughout its early history, and by 1899, its circulation was 1,300 daily and 2,500 weekly. By 1903, it was known as the Davenport Democrat.

20th century
In 1905, after purchasing its rival newspaper, The Davenport Leader, the name became The Davenport Democrat & Leader, under the city editorship of Ralph W. Cram.

The newspaper was sold to Lee Enterprises in 1915; thereafter, Cram became editor and publisher until 1940. Davenport was dropped from masthead in 1937, and by 1951 the newspaper adopted the name of Morning Democrat.

The Blue Ribbon News began publication in 1878; by 1886, it was known as the Davenport Daily Times. The newspaper, which struggled for many years, was sold in 1899 to A. W. Lee (founder of Lee Enterprises) for $120,000.

Both newspapers continued to grow in circulation before being combined into one newspaper - Times-Democrat - in 1964. By 1974, with circulation expanding throughout eastern Iowa and western Illinois, the newspaper was given its current name.

In December 1989, the Quad-City Times moved into its current building at 500 E. Third St., in Davenport, Iowa. The facility, completed for $23.8 million, includes a five-story press room, mail room, warehouse, and editorial offices. The facility also houses Trico, the newspaper's commercial printing business.

The Quad-City Times has been on the leading edge of technology, becoming the first all-electronic newspaper in 1973. Electronic pagination began in 1988, with all-digital photography taking root by 1994.

Brent Bozell scandal
In 2014, it was revealed that L. Brent Bozell III, whose conservative column the Quad-City Times had been publishing, was not written by Bozell at all but by designated ghostwriters.

Following the revelation, the Quad-City Times dropped Bozell's column, reporting that, "Bozell may have been comfortable representing others' work as his own. We're not. The latest disclosure convinces us Bozell has no place on our print or web pages."

Current Quad-City Times columnists include Roy Booker, Linda Cook, Matt Coss, Jennifer DeWitt, Don Doxsie, Alma Gaul, and Barb Ickes. The current editor is Matt Christensen, and Deb Anselm is the publisher.

Other editions
The newspaper receives Iowa political news from Lee Enterprises' Des Moines bureau and Illinois political news from its Springfield bureau.

Previously, the Quad-City Times published these additional editions, which have since been discontinued:

 * An "Afternoon Edition" circulated for decades only in Davenport and Bettendorf.
 * An "Illinois Edition" that circulated in the Illinois Quad Cities and throughout Rock Island, Henry, and Mercer counties.
 * A bureau in Clinton that compiled news for a "Gateway Edition." This edition went to Clinton and Jackson counties in Iowa, and Carroll and Whiteside counties in Illinois during the week.

The "Quad-City Times" is available on the Amazon Kindle book reader; however, it is without ads, classifieds, and most photos and tables.

The Bettendorf News
On Thursdays, the Bettendorf News is published, and the tabloid-sized included in newsstand and subscriber copies in Bettendorf, Le Claire, Pleasant Valley and Riverdale. From 1927 through sometime in the 2000s decade, the Bettendorf News was a stand-alone weekly newspaper. Since 1975, the newspaper has been owned by Lee Enterprises, and during the 2000s decade, the newspaper became a weekly section comprising features, sports recaps, and community news. In the past, special weekly sections were also published for the Clinton and upper and lower Rock Island County markets, but these have since been discontinued.

Previous publications
Other publications previously produced by the Quad-City Times include:

 * On the River, a journal dedicated to life on the Mississippi River. On the River published from July 12, 2003, to April 5, 2008.
 * QC BizNet, a monthly business magazine with stories about Quad-City area businesses. QC BizNet was published from May 2000 to June 2001.
 * Quad-City Business Journal, a monthly business magazine with stories about Quad-City area businesses. Quad-City Business Journal was published from January 1, 2003, to December 1, 2011.
 * The Rock Island News, a weekly insert dedicated to news about Rock Island. The Rock Island News was published from April 29, 2007, to April 27, 2008.
 * WINC., or Women Incorporated Magazine, a publication dedicated to women entrepreneurs and business leaders. WINC. was published from March 2004 to February 2006.
 * Your Mom, a teen publication written by and dedicated to teen readers. Your Mom was published from September 8, 2004 to December 22, 2005.

Awards

 * 1965: Penney-Missouri Award for General Excellence.
 * '1971: Penney-Missouri Award for General Excellence.
 * 1977: Penney-Missouri Award for General Excellence.

title: Quad-City Times