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Talk:New Kadampa Tradition

Merger Proposal: bios of NKT teachers
I propose that the bios of NKT teachers: Kelsang Khyenrab, Thubten Gyatso and Samden Gyatso be merged into the NKT teachers section of this article. Those articles all lack important biographical information and it is hard to see how they meet the notability criterea. All seem to have little notability or significance outside the context of the NKT. Chris Fynn (talk) 10:49, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if the second two would be that helpful in the article itself or necessary, but I wouldn't see a problem with deleting them. I don't see a huge issue with them existing separately currently either, though. Regarding Kelsang Khyenrab I would not see a problem with integrating it into the New Kadampa Tradition page, as long as it didn't make it too unwieldy/awkward and fit in well. I sort-of think it would, but if you saw some nice way to make it fit then maybe its not a big deal. I think having all three would just be a bit clunky there, as generally it seems excessive to include bios of specific individuals unless they're the founding member. Prasangika37 (talk) 13:38, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

 * Merge-Per WP:Notability.VictoriaGrayson (talk) 19:34, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Merger done. Chris Fynn (talk) 14:28, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Made some edits
In accordance with CFynn's tag at the top of the page, I made edits. Please review .VictoriaGraysonTalk 21:27, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Fine with me, though maybe a little bit more could be said about the Dorje Shugden controversy. Maybe.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   07:30, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I reverted to the old version. You removed massive amounts of information. I also am a bit saddened I didn't get invited to review it myself!! Tisk tisk.. What specific things do you want in and what do you want out? Happy to compromise as I find the current article sprawling, but you practically decapitated it! :) Prasangika37 (talk) 21:14, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Joshua Jonathan.VictoriaGraysonTalk 21:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
 * When I looked at this page, I really thought that this tag was misplaced. Later I saw that some work has been done. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:13, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Please obtain consensus before making these changes. There has not been anything close to a consensus yet. I am going to revert now and please do not edit war in return. Perhaps offer 1 change and then we can start working. Prasangika37 (talk) 22:18, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I already have consensus. And thus you are the one edit warring.VictoriaGraysonTalk 22:22, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Where? Lets see... The only person I can see supporting your massive purge of material is Joshua Johsnon. I did not agree. That is 2 and 1..hardly close to consensus. Thanks. Prasangika37 (talk) 22:25, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * What about asking ? Couldn't have even included little ol me?Prasangika37 (talk) 22:48, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * CFynn advised you not edit NKT / Shugden related articles due to your possible COI's.VictoriaGraysonTalk 22:50, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Would you say you had no COI? Prasangika37 (talk) 22:57, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no COI. I am not a part of any Buddhist organization whatsoever. In the name of Kelsang Gyatso, what is your position within the NKT?VictoriaGraysonTalk 22:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

MY humble opinion on this one is that VG's edits, where they cleaned up previous wording, are good; she can write well. Her edits adding criticism are not undue, BUT I think the explanatory material that was in there should have been rewritten to be better, but not removed. So. I suggest that using this diff as a base, reincorporate the deleted material, but rewrite it so it sounds less like someone's promotional web site -- you don't need every festival in the year, for example, and the notation that full ordination is not available is relevant - I would not remove anything VG has added, I'd just restore what was removed but in a better-written way. Montanabw (talk) 23:40, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Temporarily okay with the edit and have made a few slight adjustments, but can't give the full time it needs to dissect the changes until a few days time. Then, we can call in an RFC if we need to if there is further pushing or problems. Prasangika37 (talk) 19:32, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

See new discussion on NPOV noticeboard HERE.VictoriaGraysonTalk 20:14, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * There is still no consensus for the use of 'cult' especially in the lead, so I will be reverting the edit in a day. You can see pretty clearly there are strong feelings against it on the discussion board and at the very least, definitely not any consensus supporting it. Prasangika37 (talk) 14:25, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The tag at the top of this talk page says you are a connected contributor with a possible COI.VictoriaGraysonTalk 02:36, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * There were no relevant conclusions over at the noticeboard. I am going to continue to edit in a reasonable way, as I have been. Shii, John_Carter, and Elnon both agreed that there seemed to be either no problem on my editing or even more problems coming from other editors (e.g. yourself). The only people that agreed with this complaint were, unsurprisingly, the people involved in editing the articles (cfynn, joshua, yourself, montanabw). On the other hand, there were relevant conclusions on the NPOV noticeboard that cult was hardly appropriate. At the very least, no consensus that its reasonable to use. Prasangika37 (talk) 20:29, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * are any of you willing to make a move regarding the discussion we had on the use of 'cult' on the NPOV noticeboard?Prasangika37 (talk) 20:34, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

 * I have no interest in nor desire to be sucked into this topic. I know that religious topics are dangerous, because they involve beliefs, rather than facts. I will simply repeat my point that the word "cult" is primarily used as a pejorative term by followers of larger, older religions when describing newer, smaller ones. It's never a helpful word. Wikipedia shouldn't use it, anywhere. (Unless we are quoting someone else's precise words.) HiLo48 (talk) 21:26, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * We are quoting someone else's precise words.VictoriaGraysonTalk 22:58, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Not in the lead... its used as an individual word there and not in a quote. Prasangika37 (talk) 01:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Like HiLo48, I believe the derogative world “cult” should not be used in an intro where it is bound to raise constant bickering among editors. I would fain see the full quotation from Thierry Dodin’s interview relegated to a more apposite section within the article where it could be properly attributed to Dodin (who by the way doesn’t strike me as being an unbiased observer). --Elnon (talk) 05:12, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Scientology is called a cult in the lead, I see no reason not to do so here. Montanabw (talk) 06:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * They are not remotely comparable if you consult 1) the news 2) actual examples of scandal 3) scholarly sources on the matter. In additon, having one single quote to quote from it is far different than Scientology, where there are an absolute abundance on the issue. Even from a consensus point of view, TFD, Elnon, HiLo, and Adjwilley all denied the idea. This makes it pretty clear.. Prasangika37 (talk) 14:59, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
 * HiLo48 says its fine if its a direct quote. VictoriaGraysonTalk 17:26, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I viewed the comments as basically stating that any such claims need to be well-sourced. I see no issues using the word here.   Montanabw (talk)  04:17, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Seems like quote a gross exageration of the results we had at NPOV. I documented them here:
 * "-"My gut feeling is that if an academic and non-sectarian source uses the word, and it's due weight, it's fine" Academic and non-sectarian and due weight?" None of these have been established. Dodin hasn't been proven to be an academic once and the interview is on a random website.
 * -"The source is an interview with a Tibeologist (not a cult expert) who says, I do not think that source has sufficient weight for inclusion. You need to show that books about cults routinely classify it as a cult. " " For example if a scholarly book on cults says that they are generally described as a cult, we can say that. We can accept that the author is familiar with all the literature, while we are not, and can make a judgment about the use of the term to describe the group. While the Tibetologist is for what he said, the issue is what weight to assign it. I would suggest very little, because he is an expert on Tibetology" Again, doesn't happen to support the inclusion and backs up ian.thomson's point regarding not enough weight.

... --"Perhaps the lede can say that some people consider it to be a cult, with a citation to one such source?"
 * "Yes, my earlier post described that phenomenon - "Cult" is a word used by adherents of larger, older religions to describe smaller, newer religious groups in a derogatory manner. For a serious encyclopaedia, it's a pretty useless word really. We shouldn't be using it. " And here he implied the whole quote should be used.. but that doesn't mean in the lead. I took that clearly to be in the article..
 * "Seriously though...here are my rules for using the word cult: 1. You can use it to describe a group without qualification IFF a large majority of reliable secondary sources refer to the group as such. The result of this is that the word cult will pretty much only be used to describe destructive cults on Wikipedia. 2. If there is controversy over whether a group is a cult or not with some primary sources calling it a cult and others saying it's not, and this controversy is consistently reported in secondary sources (i.e. not WP:RECENTISM) then you can use the word cult but it must be attributed. For example, "so and so has described X as a cult". 3. In a majority of cases, groups referring to one another as cults is just mudslinging and it doesn't merit being repeated in a serious encyclopedia. I think the example provided by the OP falls under #2 or #3"
 * -no direct support, just slight criticizng of TFD's point but not supporting one way or the other.
 * -outright direct opposition.
 * And then there are Montana, myself, and Victoriagrayson weighing in, who pretty much negate one another because our points of view on the issue are clear. So when we tally it up.. TFD, Elnon Adjwilley = Saying it doesnt work in this case. | ian.thomson=Saying it only works if there is due weight, which TFD refuted quite clearly. | HiLo = saying the word is useless and the whole quote is needed if its used (most likely in the article? I assume not in the lead especially how small the lead is.) dje.. =saying perhaps we can use it. || What about those stats induce the understanding that it should be included??? At the very least we cannot call it consensus. Prasangika37 (talk) 13:59, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Any rebuttal? Looks like you're both drastically outnuumbered on this one. Prasangika37 (talk) 18:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You are misstating the position of the people on the NPOV board, and I will note that where you aren't misstating them, they are actually saying things like"there needs to be a source." which there is. I read the outcome as supporting a properly sourced statement that NKT has been characterized as a cult.  Montanabw (talk)  23:03, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Please see new NPOV discussion HERE.VictoriaGraysonTalk 18:42, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

A Civil way to move forward..
Hi especially, and anyone else. John Carter had a helpful suggestion that we 1. find the proper question to ask 2. and then pool points of view via an RFC, as opposed to submitting the poor NPOV noticeboard to our tomfoolery :). My thoughts are we could 1) Express the specific thing that is being debated 2) Give one sentence pro the item and con towards the item in the question. I was wondering if in this thread we could collectively draft the right question and agree on the pro and con items, so it can be as successful as possible? Do either of you want to suggest what the proper question is and a pro and con towards the suggestion? If you don't want to, then I am happy to think about it. And maybe by Sunday we can come to a conclusion and have an official RFC to come to some conclusion. Prasangika37 (talk) 19:32, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Given the choice personally, what I might do is have the individuals involved in the dispute agree on where, if anywhere, in the lede contentious material on this topic is to be included, and then have the disputants draft what they would consider the preferable phrasing for that section, and then have an RfC regarding which of the alternatives is more appropriate. The point of contention might include either a whole paragraph or sentence of whatever. Remembering that it is considered reasonable to allow a lede to be up to four paragraphs long, maybe the best way to start would be to have some discussion on the length of the lede. I would suggest four paragraphs myself, but I'm a verbose bastard with diarrhea of the keyboard and I know a lot of people disagree with me. If it were four, I might suggest the first paragraph be the bare-bone summary of the topic, the second paragraph describe the reasons for the schism that created the group and its foundation, the third paragraph as history or significant developments or actions of the group since its inception, and the fourth paragraph describing in some way "current status" of the group. In such a setup, I tend to think that the fourth paragraph might be the best place to describe outside views on the group, including those of other Buddhist groups and the academic world. But that is, clearly, just one opinion. John Carter (talk) 19:41, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

 * To be honest with you, there are about five articles with disputes, a host of assorted drama board visits, and at this point, I honestly don't even know what the f--- the problem on this particular article even is. My recommendation: Archive this entire talk page and start "clean".  The underlying issue here is we have an editor who is closely affiliated with NKT (and may have an undisclosed COI, but I am not sure of that) versus a mainstream Buddhist editor.  Then there are 2-3 other people who pop by from time to time and weigh in, including myself, who began this originally as a neutral party.  I've become rather exasperated with the situation, as it is just the same issues over and over and over again. This is typical of a situation where there is a cult member and a non-cult member wrangling over an article.   Montanabw (talk)  19:55, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I find that to be a reasonable method. Offer two leads and go from there in an RFC. I don't have the stamina to craft four paragraphs for now, but at least can offer two alternatives. Montana, your colors have been shown enough times at this point..Regardless if you came in as neutral or not, accusing me (repeatedly) of being a cult member and your general inconsistencies in editing in the nature of favoring the edits of victoriagrayson and almost exclusively reverting anything I offer, implies there is some serious POV issues on your part. Your insistence in discrediting at all chances as opposed to actually talking and moving forward in a logical manner is saddening to me and makes it very challenging to accept you as a remotely reasonable editor in this case. Regardless, I think we need more constructive ways forward instead of merely slinging mud and I invite you to grow a little and make efforts to do this. If you don't I'll start collecting diffs and we can see where we need to go from there.Prasangika37 (talk) 01:46, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I started out looking for a middle way also, but it is clear from your behavior and approach that you clearly identify with the NKT, behave precisely like a member of a cult and seek to whitewash this reality. (I've dealt with cult members, having many a debate/discussion/beat my head against the wall with Moonies, members of The Way, and Scientologists at various times. Your behavior is very similar to theirs) The NKT is a WP:FRINGE organization and has an exclusivist view and other traits that fits pretty must everything on the checklist of the "is this group a cult" checklist.   I am sorry you are unhappy about being called on this and think it is "slinging mud," but to be honest, this is a problem.   Montanabw (talk)  17:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * What you seem to be confused about is that there are many people who have expressed the same POV as me regarding this variety of articles. Are they all evil cult members too? I haven't even seen one decent point regarding the organization being a cult in the first place!! Anyway, this is where it is truly bizarre. You have a point of view that is >very< specific and seemingly hateful towards this organization and are largely disagreed with by many others. It would be one thing if I was conveying a point of view either 1) in a trolling, hateful, or rude manner or 2) that wasn't held by other neutral wikipedia editors, but Elnon, John Carter, Ogress, TFD, HiLo48, and Highwindows have all variously disagreed with the POV that you seem to push in different ways. Chris Fynn largely agrees but he has been a self-proclaimed part of the debate for around 20 years now and Joshua Jonathan seems to, but he sems to be a long held wikipedia buddy of VictoriaGrayson. And then you focus primarily on criticizing me as a person and not on reasonably discussing the article at hand.. Prasangika37 (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Anyway, It seems that the two leads currently being offered are:

The New Kadampa Tradition – International Kadampa Buddhist Union (NKT—IKBU) is a global Buddhist organization founded by Kelsang Gyatso in England in 1991. In 2003 the words "International Kadampa Buddhist Union" (IKBU) were added to the original name "New Kadampa Tradition". The NKT-IKBU is an international organization registered in England as a charitable, or non-profit, company.[1][2] It currently lists more than 200 centres and around 900 branch classes/study groups in forty countries.[3]

The NKT-IKBU describes itself as ‘an entirely independent Buddhist tradition’ inspired and guided by ‘the ancient Kadampa Buddhist Masters and their teachings, as presented by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’.[4]

The NKT-IKBU has expanded more rapidly than any other Buddhist tradition in Britain and it has been portrayed or described as a "controversial organization",[4] a "breakaway order of the Gelukpa,"[5] a "controversial Tibetan Buddhist NRM,"[6] or "a cult on the basis of its organisational form".[7]
 * The other is

The New Kadampa Tradition – International Kadampa Buddhist Union (NKT—IKBU) is a global Buddhist organization founded by Kelsang Gyatso in England in 1991. In 2003 the words "International Kadampa Buddhist Union" (IKBU) were added to the original name "New Kadampa Tradition". The NKT-IKBU is an international organization registered in England as a charitable, or non-profit, company.[1][2] It currently lists more than 200 centres and around 900 branch classes/study groups in forty countries.[3]

The NKT-IKBU describes itself as ‘an entirely independent Buddhist tradition’ inspired and guided by ‘the ancient Kadampa Buddhist Masters and their teachings, as presented by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’.[4]

The NKT-IKBU has expanded more rapidly than any other Buddhist tradition in Britain. The growth has been attributed to "a wish to share the Dharma rather than ‘conversion and empire-building’". (Bluck) Criticisms towards the NKT describe it as a "breakaway order of the Gelukpa"[5] and a "controversial Tibetan Buddhist NRM."[6]
 * The main logic for the second is two-fold--> The reversions added in the current lead that have been added relatively lately imply that a summary of how the New Kadampa Tradition is portrayed is as those few quotes, ignoring any of the positive portrayals that exist in scholarly work. Also, controversial organization and controversial nrm are redundant. The cult allegation is a redundant with NRM (NRM is considered the best word for what 'cult' attempts to establish) and has a variety of problems, including the author of the quote (former director of the Tibetan Information Network and no true evidence in regards to training..) and minimal weight in regards to it. Prasangika37 (talk) 01:46, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

 * The word "cult" in the current context of a sourced direct quote from a respected mainstream Buddhist is appropriate to stay. Stating that the position of the NKT is otherwise is also appropriate per NPOV, preferably via another direct quote from a respected source within the movement.  The operative concept for me is "teach the controversy."  Montanabw (talk)  17:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The apparent logic of the use of the word "cult" is not to my eyes the word itself, but the entirety of the quotation provided, "a cult on the basis of its organisational form". The full quotation indicates not just that it is a "cult" but also the specific reasons why it is considered a cult. The quote taken as a whole includes much more potentially significant information than just the word "cult" on its own. The argument against the inclusion of the shortened quote is that I don't see anything in the body of the article which indicates exactly how the NKT, in its organizational form, is a cult, and the lede is supposed to summarize the content of the article, not contain material not discussed more thoroughly in the article. Right now, that quote does the latter, not the former. The full quote, "The NKT can be described typologically as a cult on the basis of its organisational form, its excessive group pressure and blind obedience to its founder," or a paraphrase of it, might be more useful, if there were clear content in the article beyond the lede going into further detail. But, as is, the quote does not, so far as I can superficially see, meet the requirements of the lede because it does not summarize something gone into greater detail in the body of the article, but presents something that is apparently not clearly discussed anywhere else in the article. If material is added to the article to provide further information beyond that currently included in the lede, possibly prominently in a separate section dealing with that material, that would be best. John Carter (talk) 18:01, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * This article is pretty far short of the GA standard in many ways, and having some material in the lede, cited, that is not in the body of the article is not prohibited, though it's not ideal. I think that the best solution is to add a bit of an expansion into the body text, and I have done so. Montanabw (talk)  07:13, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

'cult information center' stuff
No consensus for this inclusion still, so I have deleted it. Prasangika37 (talk) 22:30, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
 * No consensus to delete.  Montanabw (talk)  00:03, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * There was no consensus to include it originally. If you would like to discuss it I would be happy to.Prasangika37 (talk) 20:00, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with Montanabw.VictoriaGraysonTalk 20:04, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
 * What makes this different from our mutual friend VictoriaGrayson's exasperation that there isn't consensus over at Dorje Shugden Controversy? In addition, part that you changed, 'cult based on its organizational form' was an agreed upon aspect of the intro a month ago and was the only immediate reason we included it at all. Without those extra words I will be promptly removing it altogether..or you can choose to include with the extra words. Prasangika37 (talk) 22:17, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

 * I'm not tracking that page's drama as closely as this one. My concern is that you are also deleting other evidence that NKT is a cult.  IF VG and everyone wants to debate the words "organizational structure," that is fine, we can debate.  But don't claim consensus where there is none.   Montanabw (talk)  00:03, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I am deleting something that wasn't included or verified beforehand. It was just snuck in.. Prasangika37 (talk) 01:43, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Claimed Consensus on Intro
Ever since the intro has been changed there has been -->no<-- consensus. See my earlier post about this. When we had two NPOV noticeboard discussions about even including 'cult', we had about half and half with different opinions. If you think it should be changed, instead of just reverting it, please explain why that is the case. Especially when the various intros I have offered in order to compromise (even going as far to including the word 'cult' but with proper attribution as requested by others) have been automatically reverted without discussion, we can see there is a sort of blindness present. Prasangika37 (talk) 21:26, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Prasangika, your view on the matter was a minority view. We don't need references in the intro so long as the material is sourced later in the article body text, which it is.   Montanabw (talk)  06:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately thats just not true. There was no consensus to include cult in the first place. I am attempting to make some compromise, but I think I will revoke that attempt and continue to make an effort to remove it based on the original NPOV noticeboard discussions and the business above. Also, its a bad example of undue weight by listing 5 different criticisms that are sometimes repetitive. Prasangika37 (talk) 02:02, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Still nothing relevant to debate this point. Especially the line 'It has been described' and then listing five various criticisms is disingenuous and not in accordance with WP:WEIGHT. These are clearly criticisms and WP:FRINGE. To list all of them is not appropriate--I have narrowed it to two and listed they are specifically criticisms. Prasangika37 (talk) 18:26, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Drop the WP:STICK, you are not going to win this one, no more than the scientologists did.  Montanabw (talk)  23:21, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The nasty speech is a bit old. I find it disturbing that you are misrepresenting consensus, and essentially lying or at least being disingenuous, especially as such a dedicated editor here on WP. Should I just report you? I am not sure how to go forward other than that as of right now. Below I include the point I raised earlier in November or so, which has been constantly disregarded. Prasangika37 (talk) 15:18, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Seems like quote a gross exageration of the results we had at NPOV. I documented them here:
 * -"My gut feeling is that if an academic and non-sectarian source uses the word, and it's due weight, it's fine" Academic and non-sectarian and due weight?" None of these have been established. Dodin hasn't been proven to be an academic once and the interview is on a random website.
 * -"The source is an interview with a Tibeologist (not a cult expert) who says, I do not think that source has sufficient weight for inclusion. You need to show that books about cults routinely classify it as a cult. " " For example if a scholarly book on cults says that they are generally described as a cult, we can say that. We can accept that the author is familiar with all the literature, while we are not, and can make a judgment about the use of the term to describe the group. While the Tibetologist is for what he said, the issue is what weight to assign it. I would suggest very little, because he is an expert on Tibetology" Again, doesn't happen to support the inclusion and backs up ian.thomson's point regarding not enough weight.
 * ... --"Perhaps the lede can say that some people consider it to be a cult, with a citation to one such source?"
 * "Yes, my earlier post described that phenomenon - "Cult" is a word used by adherents of larger, older religions to describe smaller, newer religious groups in a derogatory manner. For a serious encyclopaedia, it's a pretty useless word really. We shouldn't be using it. " And here he implied the whole quote should be used.. but that doesn't mean in the lead. I took that clearly to be in the article..
 * Adjwilley: "Seriously though...here are my rules for using the word cult: 1. You can use it to describe a group without qualification IFF a large majority of reliable secondary sources refer to the group as such. The result of this is that the word cult will pretty much only be used to describe destructive cults on Wikipedia. 2. If there is controversy over whether a group is a cult or not with some primary sources calling it a cult and others saying it's not, and this controversy is consistently reported in secondary sources (i.e. not WP:RECENTISM) then you can use the word cult but it must be attributed. For example, "so and so has described X as a cult". 3. In a majority of cases, groups referring to one another as cults is just mudslinging and it doesn't merit being repeated in a serious encyclopedia. I think the example provided by the OP falls under #2 or #3"
 * -no direct support, just slight criticizng of TFD's point but not supporting one way or the other.
 * -outright direct opposition.("Like HiLo48, I believe the derogative world “cult” should not be used in an intro where it is bound to raise constant bickering among editors. I would fain see the full quotation from Thierry Dodin’s interview relegated to a more apposite section within the article where it could be properly attributed to Dodin (who by the way doesn’t strike me as being an unbiased observer)".)
 * And then there are Montana, myself, and Victoriagrayson weighing in, who pretty much negate one another because our points of view on the issue are clear. So when we tally it up.. TFD, Elnon Adjwilley = Saying it doesnt work in this case. | ian.thomson=Saying it only works if there is due weight, which TFD refuted quite clearly. | HiLo = saying the word is useless and the whole quote is needed if its used (most likely in the article? I assume not in the lead especially how small the lead is.) dje.. =saying perhaps we can use it. || What about those stats induce the understanding that it should be included??? At the very least we cannot call it consensus. Prasangika37 (talk) 13:59, 3 December 2014 (UTC)" Prasangika37 (talk) 15:14, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Coming back to this talk page after giving it a wide berth for a while, I am amazed that the same repetitive, disparaging sentence "It has been described as a "controversial organization"and a "controversial" New Religious Movement, a cult, or a breakaway Buddhist sect" should still be in the intro without any qualifying or reduction in length. Why has "controversial" to be mentioned twice in a row? Why does "by some critics" have to be suppressed after "it has been described"? Why does it take so long for a non-committal sentence to be agreed upon by all parties? --Elnon (talk) 20:08, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I have been looking into what Martin A. Mills says. Nowhere in his book is the quotation "a breakaway Buddhist sect" to be found, he just calls the NKT "a breakaway order of the Gelukpa." --Elnon (talk) 18:02, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you . I am feeling a bit overwhelmed as there is some outnumbering going on and a general refusal of compromise or dialogue.. to me that part of the intro wouldn't fly on any well-vetted Wikipedia page. My inexperience prevents me from knowing really how to fix it. Prasangika37 (talk) 21:13, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Possible Mediation Committee involvement?
It seems to me that this topic, particularly given the perhaps less adequate than would be liked academic sourcing available, might well benefit from input of the WP:MEDCOM to resolve matters one way or another. Any opinions? John Carter (talk) 22:18, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Considering the current stand-off, I suppose this might help solve the dispute. --Elnon (talk) 16:59, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I would deeply appreciate that and would be more than happy to be involved. could you help about how to go further? Prasangika37 (talk) 18:34, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:RFM shows how to file for formal mediation as per the committee. The one thing I might suggest first though is to try to get together, possibly on a subpage of this talk page, a list of the reliable sources which are available and an indicator of what they say. Obviously, academic journal articles and college-level textbooks and similar academic sources would be best, but in the absence of them whatever can be found can be useful. Maybe it might first be good to start a page at Talk:New Kadampa Tradition/Sources and, maybe, contact as many editors as are still active and have contributed to the discussion over time as possible to see if they would be interested in taking part in the mediation. Also, I guess, FWIW, it might not be bad to find what reviews of some of the sources are available, and maybe try to start separate articles on them if the reviews are substantial enough. Having as much information as is possible available before the start of mediation would probably be among the easiest ways to get the mediation resolved comparatively quickly. John Carter (talk) 18:47, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

 * I really don't see the need unless we want the NKT articles to become the dramafest the Scientology ones are. I think that this situation is that a flexible number of editors are up against a small contingent of people who appear to have a COI and close affiliation with NKT that never give up. The majority consensus is clearly in one direction, but the vocal dissonance of the minority keeps the issue from ever being settled.  Usually mediation is just the same drama all over again - I say this as someone who originally came to these articles thinking that as a non-Buddhist I could be a neutral voice but as soon as my assessment went against the minority view, I became the enemy too. The issue is, and continues to be in large part a sourcing and weight question, so I do think John Carter's suggestion to get source material together is well taken, whatever else is said or done.   Montanabw (talk)  05:01, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Neutral? From the beginning you screamed things like 'cult' and calling a Buddhist tradition scientology and being essentially unwilling to make compromises. Never an enemy, but obviously someone with a bone to pick..And again, its not a minority vs majority situation here. Look at the results listed above. Its a clear misrepresentation of the results from NPOV. Are you willing to make comcompromises and be reasonable? If not, we can simply do mediation and try to get some clarification.Prasangika37 (talk) 18:45, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I began as a neutral; your behavior became obvious quite quickly, Prasangika, particularly when you had that sockpuppet user tag-teaming with you. Don't go crying "unfair" when this whole situation began due to you ganging up on the mainstream Buddhism editors and running several of them off.  Montanabw (talk)  04:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Look at the history of discussion--I have repeatedly compromised, been civil, and admitted mistakes when I have made them. I don't know of any sockpuppet business, other than the fact that the claim has been repeatedly slung and hasn't been verified once. Is there no interest in assuming good faith? Prasangika37 (talk) 17:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The advantage of mediation is it tends to be binding in the short term at least upon completion. Granted, that might not be that much of an advantage, because it might simply mean until the next really good reference work on Buddhism comes out, but it does tend to be a fairly conclusive settlement of the issues raised in the mediation until such time as the content in the best reliable sources on the subject change significantly. John Carter (talk) 18:49, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The disadvantage is that the same people say the same things over and over and over. Prasangika37 has shown his/herself to have a COI problem and is closely affiliated with the NKT, his/her edits are consistent, they attempt to present a fringe view as mainstream.  This editor's idea of "compromise" is "do it my way or I'll try asking yet another parent at yet another drama board. Mediation, at best is another way to get more neutral eyes, but I have to say that nothing is going to change until this editor finds a different note than the whitewashing of a group that clearly meets most of the criteria for a cult.  Montanabw (talk)  04:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Montanabw's response has furthered the obvious need for mediation. I will be arranging it shortly. thanks for the advice :) . Prasangika37 (talk) 19:37, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The page at Talk:New Kadampa Tradition/Sources has now been at least started. It is based basically on what I could find on WorldCat right now, but I expect to add any articles I can find on subscription databanks shortly. This may well include, unfortunately, a significant number of basically "newsy" articles from those databanks. I think it is worth noting that Kay's book seems to meet NOTABILITY requirements for a separate article, if anyone wants to do that. John Carter (talk) 21:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

NPOV Tag..
Obviously is still appropriate.. NPOV is being discussed still and won't be decided until post mediation. Prasangika37 (talk) 19:48, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I have made one last try at an RFC in a hope to help things be mediated before having to go through an ordeal. If it doesn't work out then we can move on :( Prasangika37 (talk) 13:41, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I just came by the page to find out about Kadampa as I was passing one of their centers in an LA mall. I don’t know very much about them but I do know about good versus problematic Wikipedia writing, and this page is of the latter kind. It is clearly not NPOV. I stress — I know very little about Kadampa, and it could be a renegade cult of the worst kind for all I know. But this page, with its sidelong comments and innuendo is not the way it should be done. Sleety Dribble (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 19:35, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

 * Agreed this page seems very slanted. Ive added the NPOV tag which can stay until the lede is made more balanced as it definitely currently slants in a certain direction and is not really indicative of the controversy and debate around this organisation.
 * When organisations are highly controversial this should be very clear without taking a side in the dispute. The amount of ink on this talk page shows that there are strong views on both sides and the page needs a thorough review from neutral editors. BuckTN (talk) 22:05, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Should the Intro in the Third Paragraph be fixed??
Is the third paragraph NPOV? Perhaps this paragraph should just say "there have been various criticisms of the New Kadampa Tradition" and these should be explained in the article ? Specifically, is the use of 'cult' appropriate along with the repetitive list of criticisms and use of 'describe' as opposed to 'criticized'? Prasangika37 (talk) 13:40, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

 * Too vague You asked this once already in a different form with a lack of consensus. This is called "asking the other parent," and it needs to stop.   Montanabw (talk)  01:42, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Ending the RFC, discussion is futile for now here. Moving on to mediation. Prasangika37 (talk) 18:10, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

 * Yes 'Cult' is appropriate.VictoriaGraysonTalk 18:25, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
 * "There are several ways that RfCs end: the question may be withdrawn by the poster (e.g., if the community's response became obvious very quickly); it may be moved to another dispute resolution forum, such as mediation;" This is what I have done. The RFC is over, so mediation can happen. Prasangika37 (talk) 20:53, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Odd Observation
Legobot asked me (randomly) to comment on this talk page in response to the RFC. In looking over the recent history of this discussion, it appears that an RFC was posted by User:Prasangika37 on about 20 March 2015. It then appears that User:Prasangika37 deleted the RFC notation and the RFC tag on about 5 April because the issue that would have been covered by the RFC will instead be covered by mediation. Am I correct that the originator of the RFC pulled the RFC while it was running, in order to pursue a different dispute resolution mechanism? If so, that is appropriate; the policies do say that an RFC can be stopped, although usually only by its author (as in this case) (so as to prevent disruptive changes to the RFC). If that is correct, then maybe there is a minor bug to report to the author and maintainer of a normally very reliable bot. I won't comment on the non-RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:26, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi ! Thanks for the input and question. I did pull the RFC as mediation seemed far more appropriate. I waited for two weeks on the RFC and got no answers other than the same people who there is an issue with already. Prasangika37 (talk) 19:51, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Your request for mediation was rejected without prejudice because it was filed while the RFC was still in progress. You might try requesting mediation again now that the RFC has been cancelled.  Robert McClenon (talk) 21:45, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I see yes.. Thanks for the help. I re-filed again on the 5th but apparently it wasn't done correctly :) So I just tried again. It would be great to have your input if you're willing on this page, as its quite aggressive here often and a new point of view would be much appreciated. Prasangika37 (talk) 20:53, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Added an new external link to a publication that is now online
I added an link to the online version of Carol McQuire’s paper published by INFORM (www.inform.ac) via Ashgate publishing in 2013. Details about the publication here: Spiritual and Visionary Communities – Out to Save the World Edited by Timothy Miller, University of Kansas, USA.

Title and link to the paper is here: Realising the Guru’s Intention: Hungry Humans and Awkward Animals in a New Kadampa Tradition community by Carol McQuire -Kt66 (talk) 02:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
 * None of this is RS. Please prove it is. Who is Carol McQuire and what are her qualifications? Prasangika37 (talk) 16:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * INFORM is certainly a reliable source.VictoriaGraysonTalk 18:12, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Carol McGuire is not a scholar, and there is a name in Wikipedia for her autobiographical reminiscences: primary source. Using such an external link is highly questionable. --Elnon (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * This was published by the British government. VictoriaGraysonTalk 19:42, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Then it's autobiographical stuff published by the British government. --Elnon (talk) 21:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Government sources are, generally, reliable for their content. Weight and bias are topics for dicsussion, not inclusion.  And we are fighting over EL?  Really...   Montanabw (talk)  00:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought INFORM was part of the British government. But maybe it is part of the London School of Economics.VictoriaGraysonTalk 00:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * University-sponsored programs usually have similar indicia of reliability; doesn't mean unbiased, but does mean lots of eyes on a project, not just a single boss or charismatic guru.  Montanabw (talk)  05:06, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * They are just hosting the article. It doesn't mean its published by a reliable source or anything. Who is Carol McGuire? Can someone show she is a phd or a reliable source? Also info-buddhism.com is a site devoted to criticizing the New Kadampa Tradition. It is hosted by an ex-member who seems to be a bit nutty based on reading about. These links should be removed across the board. Also extremism from Inform? How does that relate? Prasangika37 (talk) 15:54, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * There is an argument to be made for removing ALL external links and parking them here. The only stuff that really needs to be there are things that are copyrighted in a manner that they can't be made into sources or material too extensive to go into the article. (text of a law, for example, or an official website).   Montanabw (talk)  17:13, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * "New Religious Movements: A Practical Introduction" is by Professor Eileen Barker, so I see no reason why it should not be retained. On the other hand, Carol McGuire's contribution can be disposed of for obvious reasons (already stated above). --Elnon (talk) 18:07, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Both are suitable or neither. Montanabw (talk)  19:12, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Please establish RS of the paper, particularly on Carol McGuire's status as a scholar or being reliable in any way. She apparently is an ex-nun of the New Kadampa Tradition... Seems just like an angry person ? I find it strange that this info-buddhism.com site keeps being used when its basically a hate website, and that kt66 the editor above is the editor of the site no less... Which was proven years ago on wikipedia if you google search it.Prasangika37 (talk) 20:48, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The piece is originally from a book edited by Dr. Timothy Miller of the University of Kansas.VictoriaGraysonTalk 21:47, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * But the piece itself is not by a university professor, it is just a personal testimony, an autobiographical account by a non-scholar. I doubt that it has ever been, or will ever be, reviewed in a scholarly journal. --Elnon (talk) 01:24, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

News and research does not have to be published in peer-reviewed scholarly journals, particularly things like an exposé of a cult. There is a significant difference between a "hate" site and an informational site (after all, the NKT is opposed to the Dalai Lama, it was started by a disgruntled ex-Mahayana geshe, so does that make everything the NKT does a "hate" site?)   Montanabw (talk)  20:47, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That seems like a strange comparison. From my understanding the NKT was started before there were any overt issues with the Dalai Lama.. The info-buddhism site is a recent creation by a man who spends hours strictly criticizing the NKT with no positive spin in the least. Its not about information or being an 'expose', just strictly criticism. http://www.arebuddhistsracist.com/tenzin_peljor.html has a nice explanation of his activities that have been going on for 10 years on this topic.. Prasangika37 (talk) 23:15, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * And the site you just linked can be critiqued in the same way, as an attack site ... what a domain name!  Montanabw (talk)  04:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Both sites are best avoided as sources and external links in an Encyclopedia.
 * To return to Carol McGuire's autobiographical account, it cannot be described properly as an "exposé of a cult" and it does not belong with "news" or "research" contrary to what is being claimed here. Insisting on retaining a paper by a non-academic author in the external links section defies comprehension. --Elnon (talk) 10:24, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

The New Kadampa Tradition Ordination is regarded as controversial – this must be mentioned to meet WP:NPOV
This section has no citation and it is not neutral. The NKT ordination is seen as controversial and the explanation given by the NKT is not accepted by non-NKT. The stance of the critics is not mentioned, therefore, the section is not neutral. With respect to the controversies going along with the NKT ordiantion see for instance, the statements by the Australian Sangha Association or the German Buddhist Monastic Association:
 * http://info-buddhism.com/ASA-statement.html
 * http://buddhistische-ordensgemeinschaft.de/dbo_statement-shugden-protests-Dalai-Lama.htm

See also Geshe Tashi Tsering:
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhckkxSgQ8g&feature=youtu.be
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKZK6DAzKto&feature=youtu.be

Kt66 (talk) 15:28, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Geshe Tashi Tsering's video is discussed in this paper, which cites only non-NKT sources to explain Kadampa ordination vows, using only non-NKT quotes by Indian and Tibetan Lamas. I even tracked down where Buddha Shakyamuni himself taught that ordination vows can continue past death, as recorded in the Tibetan canon (many thanks to Buddhist scholar Jan-Ulrich Sobisch!):
 * http://lifetheory.org/a-festival-of-attainments.pdf

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David N. Kay appears and is cited witout introduction
It seems to me that "According to David N. Kay" appears assuming a previous familiarity with that person and his work. This closely follows https://info-buddhism.com/new_kadampa_tradition.html#Historical_background_of_the_formation_of_NKT

I suggest that this be accompanied by at least some reference.

--BenTrem (talk) 20:20, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Academic Articles
I included an academic paper by David N. Kay from 1997: Since his 2004 book is also available, I’ll add this too: Kay, David N. (2004). Tibetan and Zen Buddhism in Britain: Transplantation, Development and Adaptation - The New Kadampa Tradition (NKT), and the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives (OBC), London and New York, ISBN 0-415-29765-6 http://elibrary.ibc.ac.th/files/private/Tibetan%20and%20Zen%20Buddhism%20in%20Britain%20Transplantation,%20Development%20and%20Adaptation.pdf Kt66 (talk) 00:18, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The New Kadampa Tradition and the Continuity of Tibetan Buddhism in Transition – David N. Kay, Journal of Contemporary Religion, Vol. 12, No. 3, 1997; pp. 277-293.

Proposed update to Timeline of Events
This timeline is very helpful. It is well sourced with citations, written from a neutral point of view, and presents two sides of the story. Thank you.

You might consider also adding the fact that the FPMT was not founded until after 1978. Elizabeth Gate (talk) 21:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

 * I have created the Talk section correctly below. Could you move the comment to there please? I apologise for my "newby" clumsiness James Paul-W (talk) 23:01, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the suggestion re FPMT date. . In the meantime I apologise for being able to make the proposal work correctly in Talk. I am travelling for the next few days with no laptop - so please be patient! James Paul-W (talk) 23:51, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

 * Yes, I have moved the comment below, thank you.

Update Proposal to: Background of the founders of the NKT
This section in its current form is very dense and at times reads like a mix of timeline and very specific opinions from only one major source: Kaye which makes it unbalanced and unclear.

To make the article more clear I carefully extracted all the relevant facts and placed them in a easy to follow timeline. This makes it neutral but still presents all the main information.

I propose to replace the Current Background of the founders of the NKT' with the below timeline. It will replace entirely the "Background of the founders of the NKT" and I also propose to remove the first paragraph of the "The foundation of the New Kadampa Tradition" because this information is now included in the Timeline.

I will await feedback for a few days before making the update. Thankyou

PROPOSED NEW TEXT AS BELOW:

==Update Proposal to: "Background of the founders of the NKT" New Section title: "Timeline of Events Towards Establishment of the New Kadampa Tradition"==

This section in its current form is very dense and at times reads like a mix of timeline and very specific opinions from only one major source: Kaye which makes it unbalanced and unclear.

To make the article more clear I carefully extracted all the relevant facts and placed them in a easy to follow timeline. This makes it neutral but still presents all the main information.

I propose to replace the Current Background of the founders of the NKT' with the below timeline. It will replace entirely the "Background of the founders of the NKT" and I also propose to remove the first paragraph of the "The foundation of the New Kadampa Tradition" because this information is now included in the Timeline.

I will await feedback for a few days before making the update. Thankyou

1976 Creation of Manjushri Institute and Invitation to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso

 * July 1- Manjushri Institute is legally established as a charitable trust with four Trustees: Lama Yeshe, Peter Kedge, Harvey Horrocks, and Roy Tyson – and Lama Yeshe as Spiritual Director – Legally these four trustees have complete ownership of and control over Manjushri Institute.

 * Manjushri Institue purchases Conishead Priory, a neglected Victorian mansion in Ulverston, England is purchased for £70,000.
 * August Some members of the group move from the London area to Conishead Priory
 * Kelsang Gyatso is invited from India to teach the General Programme at Manjushri Institute:
 * Thubten Yeshe and Thubten Zopa Rinpoche visit him to make this request, they seek the advice of the 14th Dalai Lama when choosing Kelsang Gyatso. ''
 * Kelsang Gyatso later recounted that after a request from Lama Yeshe, Trijang Rinpoche suggested he teach Shantideva's Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life, Chandrakirti's Guide to the Middle Way and Lamrim, and then check whether there was any meaning in his continuing to stay."

1977 Kelsang Gyatso Arrives at Manjushri

 * August: Geshe Kelsang arrives at Manjushri Institute and becomes the first Resident Teacher at Manjushri Institute

1978 FPMT Conceived, Kelsang Gyatso Resignation, Petition to Stay and Plans to Sell Manjushri Institute

 * August 24 The creation of the FPMT is proposed for the first time by Lama Yeshe
 * Kelsang Gyatso establishes Madhyamaka Center in York under his own spirtual direction
 * Lama Yeshe sends a letter to Kelsang Gyatso asking him to step down as Resident teacher at Manjushri Institute
 * Kelsang Gyatso agrees to step down
 * Geshe Rabten (on knowing about the resignation) invites Kelsang Gyatso to teach at Tharpa Choeling Buddhist Centre in Switzerland for three months and teach Dharmakirti’s Commentary to Valid Cognition, and Geshe Kelsang accepts this invitation.
 * The community of Manjushri Institute request Geshe Kelsang to stay. Everyone signs a card petitioning Geshe Kelsang to remain, and say that they will take responsibility for preventing any problems between Manjushri Institute and FPMT. Representatives of the community, including Jonathan Landaw, visit Geshe Kelsang and give him the letter from the community, and request him to stay.
 * Geshe Kelsang accepts the request from the community, and although this decision is against Lama Yeshe’s wishes, he believes that the Manjushri Institute community was purely motivated.
 * Peter Kedge, the principal officer of FPMT makes plans to sell Conishead Priory to raise funds for FPMT’s business projects in Hong Kong. Later it becomes clear that Lama Yeshe is in agreement with these plans.

1979 Establishing the Geshe Studies Program

 * Lama Yeshe asks a Geshe at Manjushri Institute, Geshe Jampa Tekchok, to teach a twelve-year Geshe Studies Programme, recognised and validated by the Dalai Lama and modelled on the program of studies for the traditional geshe degree.

1981 Proposed Sale of Manjushri Institute

 * January: Lama Yeshe appoints Chip Rodarmor (later Gen Tharchin) as acting Director.
 * Chip makes efforts to sell the building, but Geshe Kelsang gradually encourages him not to.

1983: Peter Kedge Appointment Rejected & Manjushri Institute Vote to Separate from FPMT

 * January Chip offers Lama Yeshe his resignation, it is not accepted.
 * May -
 * Peter Kedge arrives unannounced to take over as Director.
 * Peter Kedge begins to take over the office, changes the bank accounts, and makes plans to remove the Institute’s managers.
 * Peter Kedge tells Geshe Kelsang that he and his students may have to move out within six months because he is going to sell the building

 * June: The Institute’s managers – then called the “Priory Group” – requests Geshe Kelsang for help and he accepts.
 * July
 * Geshe Kelsang and the Priory Group writes to Peter Kedge, refusing to accept him as Director and stating their wish that Manjushri Institute formally separates from FPMT.
 * A meeting is called and the community is asked to vote on two proposals: (1) that Manjushri Institute separate completely from FPMT, and (2) that Roy Tyson remain as Manjushri Institute Director. Of those who signed: forty-four people vote “yes” to both proposals (this number excluded the Priory Group of eight members); eleven abstain; and two vote “no”. Unfortunately, this is a disappointment to Lama Yeshe

 * August: After this meeting, the Priory Group writes to Peter Kedge telling him to leave by a certain deadline or the Police will be called to remove him. Peter Kedge then leaves.

Also in 1983

 * The Priory Group makes two requests to Lama Yeshe:
 * (1) to change the constitution of Manjushri Institute so that it belongs to the public and not to the four private individuals, and
 * (2) that he remain as Manjushri Institute’s Spiritual Director and Spiritual Guide continually throughout his life and for life after life.

 * Letters received from Lama Yeshe indicate that he is unhappy with Manjushri Institute. He mainly expresses his displeasure and does not agree to change the constitution.
 * The Priory Group write many letters to the FPMT managers, especially to Peter Kedge; but the request to separate from FPMT and create a new constitution is continually rejected.
 * The Priory Group then begins to prepare legal proceedings against the FPMT managers.
 * Zong Rinpoche stays at Manjushri Institute

1984 Manjushri Institute becomes Independent from FPMT and Death of Lama Yeshe

 * When the FPMT managers realize that this legal action is being prepared, they request the Dalai Lama’s Office to send mediators to help solve the problem.
 * February 13 &14
 * At London Manjushri Centre there are two days of meetings with the Dalai Lama’s two representatives. Peter Kedge and Harvey Horrocks represent the FPMT, and Geshe Kelsang, the Priory Group, and two Manjushri community members represent Manjushri Institute.
 * With the Dalai Lama’s representatives, both sides reach a peaceful agreement to formulate a new constitution such that Manjushri Institute will be in public ownership. A legally binding agreement is made, which is signed by the FPMT’s representatives, Kelsang Gyatso, the Priory Group and the community representatives.
 * Another part of the agreement confirms that Lama Yeshe is the Spiritual Director of Manjushri Institute. The community makes it clear that it does not want to separate from Lama Yeshe, only to separate from FPMT."

 * March 3: Lama Yeshe dies.

1985 A New Constitution for Manjushri Institue
October: Four new Trustees of Manjushri Institute are appointed, two chosen by FPMT and two by Manjushri Institute. A new constitution is formulated

1987 to 1990 Kelsang Gyatso Retreat, New Books and Visiting Teachers

 * Kelsang Gyatso engages in a three-year retreat in Dumfries, Scotland
 * Geshe Losang Pende from Ganden Shartse monastery is invited by Kelsang Gyatso to lead the General Programme in his absence.
 * During the period of retreat, Kelsang Gyatso writes some books and works out how to establish the NKT.
 * Kay states: "The first major development that took place during Geshe Kelsang's retreat was the introduction of the 'Teacher Training Programme' (TTP) at the Manjushri Institute."

1990 Kelsang Gyatso Teaching Tour of USA and Removal of Dalai Lama Pictures

 * Kelsang Gyatso teaches in the USA, including visiting the centre of Geshe Lhundup Sopa in Madison, Wisconsin.
 * Pictures of the Dalai Lama are removed from Kelsang Gyatso's centres to clarify that he is not a lineage Guru of those centres

1991 Formation of the New Kadampa Tradition

 * April: Geshe Kelsang announces the creation of the NKT by sending a letter to his centres, inviting them to be members of a worldwide family

1992 Manjushri Institute is Dissolved

 * A new charitable company Manjushri Mahayana Buddhist Centre is incorporated, which is completely independent of FPMT. Manjushri Institute then passes all its assets to the new charity, and dissolves. |ref name=mdk1>
 * Manjushri Institute is renamed the Manjushri Mahayana Buddhist Centre, and later, Manjushri Kadampa Meditation Centre. Since then, it has remained the NKT's flagship centre.
 * Manjushri Institute Library, with over 3,000 books, is removed.
 * From this point onwards, only students of Kelsang Gyatso teach at his centres.

Different Views on these Events
According to a disciple of Lama Yeshe from this time, Lama Yeshe intended the institute "to become the central monastery of the FPMT... one of the early jewels of the FPMT crown" and "the pioneer among the western centres". Kay sees the opening of Madhyamaka Centre in 1978 as the beginning of a conflict between Thubten Yeshe and Kelsang Gyatso. However, according to Kelsang Gyatso, "the opening of the Centre in York caused not one moment of confusion or disharmony".

Both Kay and Cozort describe the management committee of Manjushri Institute from 1981 onwards as made up principally of Kelsang Gyatso's closest students, also known as "the Priory group". According to Kay, "The Priory Group became dissatisfied with the FPMT's increasingly centralized organisation."

Cozort stated that different disagreements "led to a rift between Lama Yeshe and his students and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and his, and eventually the Manjushri Board of directors (comprisedof [sic] Geshe Gyatso's students) severed the connection of the between institute and FPMT." According to Kay, Lama Yeshe tried at different times to reassert his authority over the institute, but his attempts were unsuccessful.

The visit of Thubten Zopa in 1988 "is significant, indicating the ongoing devotion of the students to this lama and their desire to leave the negativity of the schism with the FPMT in the past."

James Paul-W (talk) 22:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

 * This timeline is very helpful. It is well sourced with citations, written from a neutral point of view, and presents two sides of the story. Thank you.
 * You might consider also adding the fact that the FPMT was not founded until after 1978. Elizabeth Gate (talk) 23:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you - I added the extra detail to 1978 also. James Paul-W (talk) 17:43, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, this seems very comprehensive and I'd be happy for it to be included in the article. What does anyone else think? Moonbeampeace (talk) 09:34, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I propose to publish tomorrow. James Paul-W (talk) 19:55, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:New Kadampa Tradition


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Emmanuel Pelaez

Emmanuel Neri Pelaez (November 30, 1915 – July 27, 2003) was a Filipino public servant and politician who served as the 6th Vice President of the Philippines from 1961 to 1965.

Early life and career
Pelaez was born in Medina, Misamis (now part of Misamis Oriental) to Gregorio Aguilar Pelaez, Sr. and Felipa Vicente Neri (second wife). He was fourth among eight children between Gregorio and Felipa: Rosario, Concepción, Gregorio Jr., Emmanuel, Jose Ma., Lourdes, Antonio, and Carmen. He studied in Cagayan de Misamis (former name of Cagayan de Oro) Elementary School where he got the highest honors. He then went to the Ateneo de Manila High School and got his Associate in Arts at the Cebu UP Junior College.

He received his law degree from the University of Manila in 1938, and in the same year topped the Bar examinations. He worked as a Senate Clerk at the Journal Division from 1934 to 1935, Debate Reporter from 1935 to 1937, and court translator from 1937 to 1938. He was employed as assistant court reporter at the Court of Appeals from 1939 to 1940, then later Special Prosecutor of the People's Court from 1945 up to 1946. Pelaez practiced law and at the same time professor of law at the University of Manila from 1946 up to 1963.

First stint in Congress
In 1949, he was elected Congressman, representing his home province. During his term as representative, He was adjudged one of the Ten Outstanding Congressmen by the Congressional Press Club, one of the Ten Most Useful Congressmen by the Philippine Free Press, and one of the two Most Outstanding Congressmen by the League of Women Voters of the Philippines.

Such achievements in the Lower House of Congress brought him to the Senate floor in 1953. He was unanimously chosen Most Outstanding Senator by the League of Women Voters of the Philippines and the Senate Press Club. In 1959, he was unsuccessful in his Senate re-election bid, placing 10th out of the 8 seats up for election.

Vice presidency (1961–1965)
Pelaez was elected vice president in 1961, simultaneously performing the functions of Foreign Affairs Secretary. He resigned in 1963 as Secretary, after a dispute with the Macapagal administration. In the same year, he was chosen Man of the Year by the Examiner and the following year was adjudged the Most Outstanding Alumnus during the Golden Jubilee Celebration of the University of Manila.

In May 1962, the U.S. House of Representatives rejected a bill to authorise payment of the remaining US$73,000,000 owed to the Philippines for war damage claims despite support from the U.S. State Department, and Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy. Pelaez stated on the matter "the United States treats her friends more shabbily than those who are not with her... one has to blackmail Americans to get anything from them."

On November 22, 1964, Pelaez lost the Nacionalista Party nomination for President of the Philippines to Senator Ferdinand Marcos, who would later be elected president in 1965.

Return to Congress
In 1965, Pelaez ran as an independent candidate for the Philippine House of Representatives in the lone district of Misamis Oriental, announcing his candidacy on July 29. By November, he was elected again as representative to Congress. He ran in the 1967 Senate election and won, serving until President Ferdinand Marcos proclamated martial law in September 23, 1972. While he went back to private life and devoted his time to his family and law practice, he nevertheless continued to take an active interest in public affairs. In 1978, the 63-year-old lawyer of Misamis Oriental was elected Assemblyman in the Interim Batasang Pambansa and served as Minister of State.

Diplomatic career
Pelaez was chair or ranking member of Philippine delegations to various international conferences among which were: the UN 10th Commemorative Conference at San Francisco in 1955; the UN General Assembly meeting in 1957 and 1962; Interparliamentary Union Conference at London in 1957; in Peru and the Cameroon in 1972. He had been a member of the consultant body of the Philippine Delegation to the SEATO in 1963. In 1973, President Marcos designated him as a member of the Philippine panel in the military bases negotiations with the United States. The RP-US Military Bases Negotiation was held in Washington, D.C. in 1975. This was his second time to serve the panel, the first time being in 1956 when he was the spokesperson of the panel in the RP-US military bases negotiations then. Pelaez served as Philippine ambassador to the United States of America during the Corazon Aquino administration. Pelaez served on the Committee of Honor of the Agri-Energy Roundtable (AER)- a United Nations accredited non-governmental organization and participated in the AER's ASEAN agro-industrial regional conference in May 1987 at the Manila Hotel.

Civic leader
Pelaez involved himself actively in various civic and professional societies. He served as chair of the Cadang-Cadang Research Foundation of the Philippines, Inc., the first Filipino scientific research foundation jointly financed by the government and the private sector for the eradication of cadang-cadang, an infectious viral disease that had threatened to wipe out the coconut industry. He also headed the Philippine Coconut Planters Association, Mindanao-Sulu-Palawan Association and the Philippine National Red Cross Fund Drive in Mindanao (1958).

Personal life
Pelaez married Edith Neri Fabella with whom he has nine children: Emmanuel Jr., Ernesto, Elena, Esperanza, Eloisa, Eduardo, Enrique, Edmundo and Elvira. A failed assassination attempt prompted him to end his political career and devote his life to Bible studies. He served twice as president of the Philippine Bible Society and chair of its board of directors, and was later made honorary president for life by the organization. He has 41 grandchildren.

Pelaez died of cardiac arrest on July 27, 2003 at the Asian Hospital and Medical Center in Muntinlupa, Metro Manila.

Honors and legacy
Pelaez is considered the father of electrification, as over three-fourths of homes in 1969 were still without electricity, as most of the homes that happened to be in Metro Manila and large cities. Thus the most prestigious electricity or power-related award was inaugurated and was given the name of the Vice President Emmanuel Pelaez Award. The award is given to the top electrical cooperative or company that distributes electricity as a public utility.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Emmanuel Pelaez


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The Way I Am (Eminem song)

"The Way I Am" is a song written, produced, and performed by American rapper Eminem from his third album The Marshall Mathers LP (2000). It was released as the second single from the album on August 26, 2000, later being featured on his 2005 compilation album, Curtain Call: The Hits. In the tradition of most of Eminem's follow-up singles, "The Way I Am" is one of the rare songs for which he has sole songwriting credit. It features a much darker and emotionally driven sound than the album's lead single "The Real Slim Shady". "The Way I Am" peaked at number 58 on the Billboard Hot 100. Outside the United States, "The Way I Am" peaked within the top ten of the charts in Belgium (Wallonia), Finland, Netherlands, Ireland, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.

Background
The song was written by Eminem to express the negative side of the fame that he had gained. The song makes points such as him not being able to go out in public and live a normal life due to him being harassed by fans. He also vents about the pressure put on him to top his earlier work on The Slim Shady LP. The line, "If I wasn't then why would I say I am" was taken from the song "As the Rhyme Goes On" by Eric B. & Rakim from their album Paid in Full. The song has also been remixed by Danny Lohner featuring Marilyn Manson, who has performed the song with Eminem live on stage. "The Way I Am" was certified Gold in Sweden, selling over 20,000 copies. The lyrics "When a dude's getting bullied and shoots up his school / And they blame it on Marilyn (On Marilyn) / And the heroin / Where were the parents at? (Parents at?) / And look where it's at! / Middle America, now it's a tragedy / Now it's so sad to see, an upper-class city / Having this happening," refer to the Columbine High School massacre with Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.

In 2008, Eminem released a second autobiography titled The Way I Am.

Critical reception
The song received critical acclaim. Aspects lauded were the vocal delivery, rhyme pattern, production and political material covered. Cynthia Fuchs of PopMatters was positive: "In 'The Way I Am', Eminem expounds, 'Since birth I've been cursed with this curse to just curse / And just blurt this berserk and bizarre shit that works / And it sells and it helps in itself to relieve / All this tension, dispensin' these sentences.' So there it is: he's performing therapy." AllMusic highlighted the song. Sputnikmusic described this song as "Amityville's portrayal of the Detroit he grew up in; 'The Way I Am' as a whole". Same critic listed it in Recommended Downloads and praising the single: "Built over doomy, gothic arpeggios, rumbling bass, and church bells, Eminem lays down one of the most perfectly formed lyrics of his career, weaving in and out of a tight rhyme scheme that echoes the loping piano motif. Interesting aside: this is one of the first Eminem songs that gives him 100% of the writing credits." IGN praised the song: "Eminem is an angry ass white boy and the vitriol continues on 'The Way I Am', in which he soundly states 'I am whatever you say I am / If I wasn't why would I say I am?' And when he complains that he's 'so sick and tired of being admired...', one almost believes that he'll hang up the mic and disappear (but Em obviously loves the attention so that's not an option at this point in the game). The throbbing, tubular bell and piano laced beat only add to the intensity of the track (incidentally it was crafted by Em himself and it's one of the more stellar examples of his often hit or miss production techniques)." Sal Cinquemani called this song: "He (Eminem) revels in the fact that there's teen violence in upper-class cities on the epic 'The Way I Am'". The song was named the 35th Best Song of the decade by the magazine Complex. The same magazine, in April 2011, ranked the song at #3 on their 100 Best Eminem Songs list.

Music video
The music video at the beginning plays an instrumental of Eminem's song "Kim". After the "Kim" instrumental is played, the song carries on as normal and when the song starts, it shows Eminem about to jump out of the window of a tall building. He jumps and falls through the sky in a sequence inspired by the Coen brothers film The Hudsucker Proxy, in which the hero also falls slowly from a skyscraper window. Marilyn Manson appears behind Eminem when the song refers to him — and a few more times thereafter. Other shots show fans coming up to Eminem, asking for his autograph. Eminem and Manson were accused of being one of the causes of the Columbine High School massacre because of their violent lyrics. The rapper refuted these accusations by saying in "The Way I Am" that it is up to parents to raise their children. Manson was invited by Eminem to participate in the music video. Manson also performed the song live with Eminem. The scene when Eminem throws a chair at his The Slim Shady LP platinum plaque was inspired by the pressure he felt by his label to write a hit as the first single for The Marshall Mathers LP. In the video, Proof is in the scene when Eminem holds a radio interview and flips the DJ off. The little boy who asks for Eminem's photo in the public bathroom is his half-brother, Nathan. It was released by Paul Hunter as well as Eminem in his neighborhood in front of his old house, the same house that is depicted on the cover of The Marshall Mathers LP. At the end of the video, when Eminem hits the ground, he bounces off of it safely, as if it is a giant mattress.

The video was named the 19th Best Music Video of the 2000s by Complex magazine. In the music video version of the song, wind sound effects can be heard when Eminem sings the intro, the first & last chorus. This can't be heard in the album version.

Credits

 * Singing and lyrics : Eminem
 * Production : Eminem
 * Mixing : Eminem
 * Guitar and bass : Mike Elizondo
 * Keyboard : Mike Elizondo, Tommy Coster
 * Composer : Eminem
 * Executive Producer : Dr. Dre
 * Producer Video : Nina Huang Fan
 * Director : Paul Hunter
 * Appearances in the clip: Marilyn Manson, Proof, Nathan Mathers

Track listing

 * UK CD single

 * UK Cassette

 * Australian CD single

 * Notes
 * $undefined$ signifies a co-producer.

title: The Way I Am (Eminem song)


text:
File:Graffiti Bridge (film).jpg

Summary
"Graffiti Bridge" 1990

Fair use in Graffiti Bridge (film)
Though this image is subject to copyright, its use is covered by the U.S. fair use laws because:
 * 1) It's a low resolution copy of a Film Poster / VHS or DVD Cover.
 * 2) It doesn't limit the copyright owner's rights to sell the film in any way, in fact, it may encourage sales.
 * 3) Because of the low resolution, copies could not be used to make illegal copies of the artwork/image.
 * 4) The image is itself a subject of discussion in the article or used in the infobox thereof.
 * 5) The image  is significant because it was used to promoted a notable film.

Source

 * 1) Derived from a digital capture (photo/scan) of the Film Poster/ VHS or DVD Cover (creator of this digital version is irrelevant as the copyright in all equivalent images is still held by the same party). Copyright held by the film company or the artist.  Claimed as fair use regardless.

title: File:Graffiti Bridge (film).jpg


text:
Five dots tattoo

The five dots tattoo is a tattoo of five dots arranged in a quincunx, usually on the outer surface of the hand, between the thumb and the index finger. The tattoo has different meanings in different cultures—it has been variously interpreted as a fertility symbol, a reminder of sayings on how to treat women or police, a way members of People Nation or Nuestra Familia affiliated gangs identify (People gangs identify with the number 5, while Folk Nation gangs use 6), a recognition symbol among the Romani people, a group of close friends, standing alone in the world, or time spent in prison (with the outer four dots representing the prison walls and the inner dot representing the prisoner). Thomas Edison had this pattern tattooed on his forearm.

title: Five dots tattoo


text:
European Research Council

The European Research Council (ERC) is a public body for funding of scientific and technological research conducted within the European Union (EU). Established by the European Commission in 2007, the ERC is composed of an independent Scientific Council, its governing body consisting of distinguished researchers, and an Executive Agency, in charge of the implementation. It forms part of the framework programme of the union dedicated to research and innovation, Horizon 2020, preceded by the Seventh Research Framework Programme (FP7). The ERC budget is over €13 billion from 2014 – 2020 and comes from the Horizon 2020 programme, a part of the European Union's budget. Under Horizon 2020 it is estimated that around 7,000 ERC grantees will be funded and 42,000 team members supported, including 11,000 doctoral students and almost 16,000 post-doctoral researchers.

Researchers from any field can compete for the grants that support pioneering projects. The ERC competitions are open to top researchers also from outside the union. The average success rate is about 12%. Five ERC grantees have won Nobel Prizes. Grant applications are assessed by qualified experts. Excellence is the sole criterion for selection; there are neither thematic priorities, nor geographical quotas for funding. The aim is to recognise the best ideas, and confer status and visibility to the best research in Europe, while also attracting talent from abroad.

Along with national funding bodies, the ERC aims to improve the climate for European frontier research. The Scientific Council has been keen to learn from the ERC's peers in national research councils (European and overseas) and to engage in dialogue and appropriate collaboration. Also, some countries – such as Poland – have used the ERC model to establish national basic research funding bodies.

Background
The idea of having a pan-European funding mechanism for basic research has been discussed and supported for a long time. However, its realisation was held back at the political level because the founding treaties of the European Union was interpreted as allowing union funding only to strengthen the scientific and technological base of European industry – that is, only funding for applied research rather than basic research. In conjunction with the Lisbon declaration in 2000, leaders of the EU, in particular the European Commissioner for Research at the time, Philippe Busquin, realised that the European Treaty had to be reinterpreted; a transformation of European economy from traditional manufacturing to a knowledge-based economy has to involve the enhanced support at the European level for science of all kinds, including both fundamental and applied research.

In 2003, a report from the ERC Expert Group (ERCEG), chaired by Professor Federico Mayor, described how the ERC could take shape. In 2004, a high-level expert group was commissioned to further explore the possibilities of creating a European Research Council. This group concluded that the EU should establish an institution to support frontier research. A number of other expert groups, such as one commissioned by the European Science Foundation, another charged with the task of analysing the economic implications of the Lisbon declaration and a high level group commissioned by the European Commission, also arrived at a similar conclusion and boosted the idea. With the ice broken, scientists and politicians have since strongly supported the establishment of an ERC. In 2006, the European Parliament and EU Council of Ministers accepted the Seventh Framework Programme (FP7) for the European Union's support for research, of which the ERC was a flagship component. In the ERC kick-off conference in Berlin, various speakers talked of 'an idea whose time has come', 'a European factory of ideas', 'a champions' league', 'a great day for Europe and a great day for science', and the beginning of a 'snowball effect'.

Scientific Council
The ERC is governed by the Scientific Council (ScC), consisting of 22 eminent European scientists and scholars (including Nobel prize laureates), and supported operationally by the European Research Council Executive Agency (ERCEA), based in Brussels. The ScC acts on behalf of the scientific community in Europe to promote creativity and innovative research. It is responsible for setting the ERC's scientific strategy, including establishing the annual Work Programmes, designing the peer review systems, identifying the peer review experts, and communicating with the scientific community. The first Scientific Council members were nominated by Commissioner Potočnik in July 2005 and worked intensively to define the key principles and scientific operating practices of the ERC in preparation for the start-up.

The members of the Scientific Council are selected by an Identification Committee, consisting of highly respected personalities in European research, and appointed by the European Commission. The ScC members term of office lasts four years.

President
Following its formal establishment, the Scientific Council reaffirmed the election of its chair and ERC president, Professor Fotis Kafatos, and the two vice-chairs and ERC vice-presidents, Professor Helga Nowotny and Daniel Estève. After the highly successful presidency of Fotis Kafatos, Helga Nowotny took over as president in March 2010 with Carl-Henrik Heldin and Pavel Exner as vice-presidents. In January 2014, after the end of Helga Nowotny's term of office, Professor Jean-Pierre Bourguignon became ERC president. Since then, the ERC also has a third vice-president, Professor Nuria Sebastian Galles, alongside the two vice-presidents already in office (each of them in charge of one of the ERC scientific domains). In May 2019, internationally recognized nanomedicine scientist Mauro Ferrari was named the next president of the European Research Council. 30 June 2021, Professor Maria Leptin was named president of the ERC from 1 October 2021.

Standing committees
The ERC Scientific Council has established two Standing Committees: one deals with conflict of interest issues, the other oversees the selection of reviewers and panel lists.

Executive Agency
The Scientific Council is supported operationally by the European Research Council Executive Agency (ERCEA), based in Brussels. The implementing pillar of the ERC, the ERC Executive Agency (ERCEA), is responsible for supporting the peer review process, implementing the ERC strategy as set by the ScC, executing all financial operations and communicating about the ERC. The ERCEA is currently headed by the Director, Laurence MOREAU. It employs some 500 staff of which more than 50 hold PhDs.

The fact that most Scientific staff hold a PhD, have done post-docs and/or have been academics reinforces the feeling among panellists and the Scientific Community as a whole that ERC Schemes are implemented by scientists understanding the pitfalls and hurdles of Research and who are constantly working to better their procedures in order to simplify the application as well as the granting processes, hand in hand with their colleagues from financial units.

Steering Committee
There is also a five-member ERCEA Steering Committee, chaired by the European Commission's Director-General for Research and Innovation, two ScC members, and two Commission officials.

Measures to ensure an integrated institution
To create an integrated institution consisting of the ScC and the ERCEA, two integrative mechanisms were initially put in place:

 * 1) The Secretary General (SG), selected by the ScC, was located in Brussels with the goal of interacting closely with the ERCEA.  This post no longer exists. The first SG was Professor Ernst-Ludwig Winnacker (2007–2009), who had already initiated the EURYI Award, the precursor of the ERC scheme, in 2003. The second SG was Professor Andreu Mas-Colell (2009–2010). The third and the last SG was Professor Donald Bruce Dingwell (2010–2013). The Secretaries General have been instrumental in the successful setting-up of the ERC, and have worked closely and fruitfully together with the two consecutive Directors ad interim of the ERCEA, Jack Metthey and thereafter Pablo Amor. During the first half of 2011, a Task Force chaired by the European Commission's Research Director-General, Robert-Jan Smits, decided to give further suggestions regarding the governance structure of the ERC in the European Commission's Framework Programme (Horizon 2020), 2014 – 2020. It inter alia suggested to merge the positions of the President and of the Secretary General into a full-time President based in Brussels. This recommendation was implemented as of January 2014; since then, the ERC President is permanently based in Brussels and there is no Secretary General.
 * 2) The ERC Board currently consists of the ERC President, the three vice-presidents, and the Director of the ERCEA.

Budget and peer review
Under the EU's Framework Programme for Research and Innovation Horizon 2020 the ERC has a budget of €13.1 billion for the period 2014 – 2020. That is a substantial increase from its initial seven-year budget under the EU's seventh Research Framework Programme (2007–2013), when the total allocated to the ERC was €7.5 billion. The ERC budget is supported by the European Commission and is supplemented by contributions from the EU associated countries. Together, the 27 EU member states and the associated countries comprise the European Research Area (ERA).

The ERC's peer-review evaluation process must command the confidence of the research community and is central to the achievement of the ERC's objectives. The ERC Scientific Council divided the full range of scientific disciplines into three major domains, with budgets allotted as follows. The peer review in the three domains is carried out by a total of 25 panels led by Panel Chairs whose scientific status gives credibility to the selection process. The peer review experts come from all over the world, which makes the ERC peer review process one of the most international of its kind on this scale. There are currently about 900 ERC panel members; together with the 2000 external reviewers, they constitute the backbone of the ERC evaluation structure.

The ScC encourages interdisciplinary proposals.

Principles
The two founding principles of the ERC regarding grants are:
 * 1) Research grant applications should be judged using the sole criterion of peer-reviewed excellence, independent of political, geographic or economic considerations. All ERC competitions for funding are open to top researchers from any country in the world, as long as they are committed to work at least half of their time in Europe. The quality and originality of the research project and the qualifications of the applicant( as shown, for example, by their publication record) are the only evaluation criteria. This means that there will be no juste retour, in other words there are no guarantees that the individual countries contributing to the programme will receive any part of the funding.
 * 2) Frontier research should be targeted by encouraging high-risk, high-reward proposals that may revolutionise science and potentially lead to innovation if successful. With its bottom-up approach, the Scientific Council does not pre-determine thematic priorities, but challenges applicants to identify them themselves. Funding is provided for individual projects initiated in an investigator-driven, 'bottom‑up' process. Although collaborations within a project are welcome, there is no formal demand to collaborate.

The ERC asks researchers to think big, and provides generous support for ambitious projects. It does not want its carefully selected grantees to waste their time by taking on numerous peripheral projects, or constantly having to seek additional money to fund their research. The grants are flexible, so that all costs for a specific project can be covered, and portable, meaning that if grant holders move to another university or institute, the grant moves with them.

The applicant can be of any nationality and age, and needs to demonstrate an excellent track record and present a ground-breaking research proposal. The research must be conducted in a Host Institution located within the European Union or an associated country.

Schemes
The council offers the following grant schemes, with funding for up to five years:

Annual applications
The following charts present annual success rates.

Availability of publications and results
The Scientific Council has adopted an 'open access' policy with regard to the access and availability of publications and research results. This requires all peer-reviewed publications from ERC-funded research projects to be deposited in the appropriate Internet-accessible libraries within six months of publication.

title: European Research Council