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Talk:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol

Fix the names
I don't understand how it is possible we have to discuss the name of this page when the official name of the region is written in the Italian Constitution Law. My proposal is to rename to "Trentino-Alto Adige", a simple copy and paste from the Italian Constitution. Not using the proper name is a gift to the enemies of Wikipedia who can say that we don't put "quality" in Wikipedi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.30.200.163 (talk) 19:21, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Costituzione della Repubblica Italiana: Art. 116. (2) "Il Friuli Venezia Giulia [X], la Sardegna, la Sicilia, il Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol e la Valle d’Aosta/Valle´e d’Aoste dispongono di forme e condizioni particolari di autonomia, secondo i rispettivi statuti speciali adottati con legge costituzionale (3)." And thus ended this discussion. noclador (talk) 00:05, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page not moved: no concensus in 28 days, and none likely. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:51, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol → Trentino-Alto Adige — The current title was a compromise between Italian- and German-speaking interests. Titles in the English Wikipedia, however, should reflect English usage whenever possible. Wikipedia also disfavors dual-name titles. Here, the evidence strongly shows that the most common name of this region in English is "Trentino-Alto Adige". Note: this move request also applies to all other Wikipedia articles with "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" in the title. Dohn joe (talk) 17:23, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Support as nom. "Trentino-Alto Adige" is by far the most common way to refer to this region in English. See Google Books: 17,300 for Trentino-Alto Adige; 894 for Trentino-Südtirol; 576 for Trentino-South Tyrol; and only 48 for the current title (many of which are Wikipedia mirrors). See also Google Scholar: 4,130 for Trentino-Alto Adige; 192 for Trentino-South Tyrol; 65 for Trentino-Südtirol; and 83 for the current title. Finally, this ngram also shows that "Trentino-Alto Adige" dwarfs all other names for this region in English. The proposed title follows Wikipedia guidelines and policies, such as WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NCGN, and follows English-language usage. Dohn joe (talk) 17:26, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The current title is neither a dual title nor a bad compromise between Italian- and German-speakers, in fact it is the official name of the region (see Italian Constitution). @Dohn joe: It is amazing how you can be on the wrong side of the argument both here and at Talk:Province of Bolzano-Bozen, but at least no-one could question you intellectual honesty and good faith. I understood your arguments and, although I disagre, I enjoy reading your opinions and I hold you in high esteem. --Checco (talk) 19:24, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the kind words, Checco. I, too, appreciate your good faith and respect your opinions. Dohn joe (talk) 20:21, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME: Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name which is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 19:33, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose We have discussed this issue many times and voted upon it and come to a final agreement in the end to go with the name given in the Italian constitution. I don't think this box should be reopened again. Gryffindor (talk) 19:44, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * But Gryffindor, in your request to move Province of Bolzano-Bozen to South Tyrol, your rationale was "Most commonly used name in the English language and literature and media for this region." And I agree with that. Isn't it also true for "Trentino-Alto Adige"? Dohn joe (talk) 20:31, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Dohn joe, my argument is actually to have it under "Trentino-South Tyrol". Please read first all the arguments given in the previous discussions and votes that were held if you have not done so already. I am not interested in roling this up again since we came to a majority agreement after long and tedious discussions and the current name was the consensus that was reached. And I intend to keep the agreement that was reached by all parties. Gryffindor (talk) 00:00, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Oppose per Checco. — Nightstallion 21:01, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose The English name of the region is actually "South Tyrol" with a "y", however the boundaries are not as precise as administrative boundaries.  Thus I'm okay with the current name, despite its awkwardness. --Bejnar (talk) 14:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose The english name of the province is South Tyrol, and thus the region should be named Trentino-South Tyrol in english.--Sajoch (talk) 18:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment The fact, that it is difficult to find references to the name Trentino-South Tyrol in Google Books or other sources, relies in the fact, that the name South Tyrol became official only after the second autonomy statute in 1972 (See Part 3 "South Tyrols new name and powers" of THE SOUTH TYROL AUTONOMY ). After the 2nd statute in 1972 the region continued to exist only de jure (and thus rare mention in news or literature), while the province South Tyrol has become a de facto region.  So if you want, leave the administrative name Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, but do not change it to its old name Trentino-Alto Adige, which isn't appropriate any more.  Hence I would strongly suggest a move to Trentino-South Tyrol by considering up-to-date data.--Sajoch (talk) 18:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you mean that the new name only became official with the amendment of the constitution in 2002 (or was it 2001?) and since then the old name Trentino-Alto Adige is not used anymore. Please correct me if I remember the dates of the official introduction of the new name wrong. noclador (talk) 18:34, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The italian name Trentino-Alto Adige is still used (obviously). But you're right, the german name Südtirol (and thus also the english name South Tyrol) became only official in 2001 (when the name Südtirol was inserted in the italian constitution). The following table shows data from english Google Books, about two decades before and one decade after making "Südtirol" an official name:
 * {| class="wikitable"

! !! 1981-1990 !! 1991-2000 !! 2001-2010
 * Trentino-South Tyrol || 26 || 110 || 322
 * Trentino-Alto Adige || 3750 || 5080 || 3930
 * }
 * The use of Trentino-Alto Adige is declining in favor of Trentino-South Tyrol after 2001, but having passed less than 10 years, the evidence is not so strong and there's still way to go. Therefore I leave it up to others to decide, if we leave the unwieldy but politically correct Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, or if we look forward and consider the trend versus Trentino-South Tyrol.--Sajoch (talk) 21:30, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * But your own evidence (and mine as well) shows that "Trentino-Alto Adige" is currently more than ten times more common than "Trentino-South Tyrol" - let alone the current title, which is hardly used at all in English. Perhaps usage is changing, and one day "Trentino-South Tyrol" will surpass "Trentino-Alto Adige". But that day has not yet arrived, and Wikipedia does not predict usage - it reflects current usage. Is there anyone who disagrees that "Trentino-Alto Adige" is currently the most common way to refer to this region in English-language sources? Dohn joe (talk) 16:11, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Any way you look at it still doesn't change the fact that the official name as given in the Italian constitution is in both languages. See also the case of Biel/Bienne as reference. Gryffindor (talk) 16:24, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * True. But if you read WP:COMMONNAME (or Mai-Sachme's post above): Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name which is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. And Biel/Bienne is a separate issue. We use that title not because of a French-German compromise, or because of official usage, but because it is commonly referred to in English  with the slash, which is not true for this region. Dohn joe (talk) 16:55, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Any way you look at it still doesn't change the fact that the official name as given in the Italian constitution is in both languages. See also the case of Biel/Bienne as reference. Gryffindor (talk) 16:24, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * True. But if you read WP:COMMONNAME (or Mai-Sachme's post above): Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name which is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. And Biel/Bienne is a separate issue. We use that title not because of a French-German compromise, or because of official usage, but because it is commonly referred to in English  with the slash, which is not true for this region. Dohn joe (talk) 16:55, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 * What 76.89.129.139/Icsunonove wrote here and especially here includes many truths. I don't say it from an Italian standpoint because I don't identify myself as an Italian. Some users in opposition of this move are using arguments which are very inconsistent to their arguments in the other discussion. They are completely free to do it, but their arguments look a little bit odd. I think we are probably going nowhere and both articles will remain where they are (and as I wrote many times, I'm not happy with it because the hyphen in "Province of Bolzano-Bozen" is a misleading mistake). I will accept any consensus and, as most of you know, I'm a peaceful and honest editor. The only thing I find difficult to accept is how 76.89.129.139/Icsunonove was blocked. In 2007-2009 he was sometimes aggressive and offensive, but this time he was simply expressing his/her opinion in a colorful way. It is a very sad day for Wikipedia. --Checco (talk) 18:40, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 * I appreciate you being peaceful, Checco, but whining about Icsunonove is off-topic here. BTW: I too was in favor of changing the hyphen to a slash: i voted for it. It would have been a small, but necessary correction. But now that we are asked to fix the bigger picture, I'm all for it.--Sajoch (talk) 19:59, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It could be, but as Icsunonove's last message (directed to Dohn joe) was on this move, I wanted to have it linked here. --Checco (talk) 20:08, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 * I'm very consistent with my arguments, and in fact I always try to back up my position with numbers: South Tyrol is several times more frequent than Alto Adige in english texts. And our guests which are non-native italian or german, know this province by the name South Tyrol - that's why this province is called South Tyrol in ALL tourism brochures and webpages meant for english visitors.

 * What I tried to explain above: the fact that the region's name Trentino-South Tyrol is hard to find in english texts (ngram-viewer returns no data!) has several reasons:
 * before 2001 only the name Alto Adige was allowed in official documents (fascist laws still apply). That's also why road signs had to show those italian names, and that's why road maps like TeleAtlas (used by Google Earth) favor italian names - but finally corrections to TeleAtlas and Navteq are under way.
 * if we do a Google search, it's difficult to narrow the results to documents written only in the last few years (less than a decade).
 * the region has become an empty administrative entity (I call it a zombie), since all powers (administration, legislation, finance, ...) were devolved to the two provinces of Trentino and South Tyrol. So there are hardly any new documents being produced about this anachronistic entity. That's why we have difficulty to apply WP:COMMONNAME.
 * This is why I don't care much, if the region remains under the bilingual name Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. But we shouldn't move it to the old imposed name.  And yes, as soon as the name province of Bolzano-Bozen will be moved to South Tyrol, it will be logical to change also the regions name to Trentino-South Tyrol, being the region the sum of the two provinces.--Sajoch (talk) 20:42, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Comment this move request is awkward as is the current name... a) the most common name in English is Trentino-Alto Adige for it was the official name since World War II until the new name was introduced in the Italian constitution in 2001, b) but all official publications now use the new name Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol and I assume in the future many English publications will adopt the name as it is now the sole official name c) however I also take in consideration that the region is made up of the two provinces of Trentino and South Tyrol, with the region today being an empty political shell with its former executive and legislative powers devolved to the two component provinces and d) as this is the English wikipedia I believe we should stick with English, which would mean that both Alto Adige and Südtirol be ineligible for the name... In short:
 * Trentino-Alto Adige = WP:COMMONNAME but a name which has been officially superseded and it is not WP:Naming conventions (use English)
 * Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol = new and sole official name, but neither WP:COMMONNAME nor WP:Naming conventions (use English)
 * Trentino-South Tyrol = based on the WP:COMMONNAME names of the two component provinces and also using WP:Naming conventions (use English)
 * Taking into account the above considerations I would prefer to move the article to Trentino-South Tyrol as per WP:Naming conventions (use English) and because it would be in line with the most common names of the two provinces; however as this move request does not propose such a move I am unwilling to either oppose or endorse this move request. Notwithstanding I believe that of the three possible options given Trentino-Alto Adige is the worst (as per inconsistency with the provinces names and as it is not English). noclador (talk) 01:24, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Comment as nom. It may seem odd, but "Trentino-Alto Adige" is not actually inconsistent with WP:Naming conventions (use English), which begins like this: "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language". Later on, it states "Where there is an English word, or exonym, for the subject but a native version is more common in English-language usage, the English name should be mentioned but should not be used as the article title." Also, "It is not our business to predict what term will be in use, but rather to observe what is and has been in use, and will therefore be familiar to our readers." Here, it seems that everyone agrees that "Trentino-Alto Adige" is the most common name in English-language sources. So even though an English term - "South Tyrol" - exists for part of the region's name, it should not be used in the article title. If some other name becomes used more often in English, we (or future editors) can revisit. But for now, the best title in English is "Trentino-Alto Adige". Dohn joe (talk) 04:42, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Dohn joe, we base the claim that Trentino-Alto Adige is the most used name in english texts (not the most used english name - please note the subtle difference!) on Google Search results. But Google Search has several handicaps:
 * A search for "Trentino-Alto Adige" includes results for "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" and "Trentino-Alto Adige/whatever"
 * A search for "Trentino-Alto Adige" cannot be restricted to recent publications (less than a decade), and if so, the numbers wouldn't be meaningful
 * People refer to either South Tyrol or Trentino but hardly ever to the region as a whole (you don't spend your holidays in Trentino-South Tyrol, and also the apples come from either Trentino or from South Tyrol)
 * That's why I wrote, that the new name of this region will be difficult to bolster with numbers, but the worst thing we could do is to change this regions name to an old/abandoned one.--Sajoch (talk) 08:29, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Comment: I would like to point out that the current name of the article has apparently been subject to mediation in October 2006: here and here. I am not sure what exactly this means and to what extent the move from Trentino-South Tyrol to Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol in March 2007 was based on the outcome of this process, but I'd like to know whether any such decision by a mediation committee is to be considered binding. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 09:21, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * "Decision of the Mediation Committee - It has been decided and voted upon to agree on the compromise "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol", which is the official name given in the Italian constitution." What does this mean? What is the procedure if there is a Mediation Committee case and one wishes to reopen it? Or is there even such a possibility to reopen a decision by the Mediation Committee?? noclador (talk) 10:25, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting questions. I would imagine a decision could be revisited (or a new case opened) after a while - it seems unlikely that any decision could be binding in perpetuity. Is mediation something that anyone would be interested in trying? Dohn joe (talk) 21:54, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Reopening this case is not something that I would support. Otherwise we'll end up revisiting this over and over again... Gryffindor (talk) 22:40, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I am totally sucking in WikiLawyering, but it seems to me fairly clear that a decision by a mediation committee should only be revised by a mediation committee (or even a higher authority) as courts verdicts in RL can only be lifted by a higher court. Otherwise, what would have been the point in establishing a mediation committee if its decisions can be lifted by a simple move request? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:20, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the answer to that is that Consensus can change. Read that page, if you never have - it's pretty interesting. What I took away from it is that even things like the mediation committee are just tools in the consensus-building process. And if conditions change, if editors change, anything can be revisited. That's the beauty (and frustration) of Wikipedia - it's controlled by all of us, and whatever "we" decide stands only as long as consensus supports that decision. Dohn joe (talk) 00:51, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Hmm,... but looking at the above opinions and the length of the debate already I think it will be hard to reach consensus for a move (or for that matter against a move). noclador (talk) 05:07, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As I stated above, the region is of no interest to the average english user. It's only an empty administrative shell, and thus could/should remain at its administrative/official name. Maybe in a few years, when there will be enough sources that endorse the name "Trentino/South Tyrol", we could request a move to this name.  For now I'm happy if I don't have to loose much time for another endless debate.--Sajoch (talk) 08:51, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * To a certain extent such a floating concept of consensus makes sense. On the other hand, it ignores the amount of time and effort and also good will which are invested into mediation: a simple vote with a few users could nullify a monumental month long effort by a large group of editors. Wouldn't you say that, say, 20 users discussing and voting an outcome reflects real consensus more than five users voting on the same issue only a couple of months later? And, if the voting is done repeatedly and at the 'right time', as we have seen at the South Tyrol article, it may even acquire outright the air of misuse. Since WP is run by and dependent on men who, as anybody, only have a finite amount of time and patience left, this should be considered, too. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 09:46, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Conditional support: Support per WP:Commonname. While "South Tyrol" and "Trentino" are each more common, the compound name "Trentino-Alto Adige" appears to be more common than a combination of the two. I hope that with South Tyrol, Trentino, Trentino-Alto Adige and Euroregion Tyrol – South Tyrol – Trentino we have found the most common names each and something for everybody, thereby bringing the year-long naming row to an end. However, I reserve the right to change my stance into an Oppose in case the earlier mediation effort turns out to be more binding than it now appears. Mediations are an important part of the WP problem solving procedure and undermining their significance and binding nature would have an undesirable adverse effect on the stability of article names. We must aim at less not more discussions. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 10:01, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: Again Firmly Oppose. The reason why we settled on this compromise after many debates and discussions was that it confirmed to the guideline WP:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names) and the policy of WP:Neutral_point_of_view. WP:Commonname can apply if there is no controversy to the name (clearly there was and is), and where is the clause that states it overrules the aforementioned two rules? The name "Trentino-Alto Adige" is not an English but an Italian word that is used in English, whereas the term "Trentino-South Tyrol" is English and the only logical sum of the two provinces. Also the term "Alto Adige" in itself was not acceptable for the wider region, since the article was and now again is called "South Tyrol". After User:Taalo/Icsunonove/76.89.129.139 started his campaign by plastering every discussion full of his POV did we agree to compromise to the official double-name given in the Italian constitution. This was accepted by everyone including Taalo, who then proceeded to the other article "South Tyrol" to have that moved, but that's another story... Gryffindor (talk) 15:26, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Gryffindor - would you please show me the language in WP:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names) and WP:Neutral_point_of_view that supports the current title? I've read both, and I've even quoted from the naming convention - to me they seem to agree with WP:COMMONNAME in this case, and support "Trentino-Alto Adige". (Also, WP:COMMONNAME is a WP policy, and thus on equal footing with WP:NPOV.) Dohn joe (talk) 22:18, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * What do you mean with "show you the language"? It says it quite clear. This topic was discussed over months in detail and voted upon multiple times in the past and settled, under the given policies and guidelines. User:Taalo/Icsunonove/76.89.129.139 constantly harassed the debate, that in the end a number of users who voted or were involved quit, such as User:Fantasy and User:Rarelibra (I know this for a fact since those users have communicated to me about this, ask yourself if you wish). I could easily start arguing for "Trentino-South Tyrol" again, but this is what was agreed and it should be honoured. Gryffindor (talk) 10:58, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Oppose per Checco and Bejnar. - Darwinek (talk) 09:33, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Also oppose, again per Checco.--Autospark (talk) 19:25, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Comment: Any solution is better than the title we have now. As Gryffindor said "Trentino-Alto Adige" is Italian but (I add commonly) used in English, "Trentino-South Tyrol" is English and the sum of the two provinces (I add less common). Südtirol is German but the problem is that it is not used in English. Why do we have it in the title? That makes no sense to me (and according to any convention). The Italian Constitution does not count (otherwise we must move Italy to Italia or Repubblica Italiana). If we want a compromise, then it cannot be but Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. But I do not see why we should search for a new compromise or keep the present compromise here, whereas in the case of South Tyrol a compromise was even adversed with the argument that German and Italian interest count zero. Why should we apply double standards? Therefore I think we should apply the same rule which prevailed in order to rename South Tyrol and Trentino: common usage. There is no need to make any poll - I even think it would not be allowed according to policies -, the data provided show quite clearly that Trentino-Alto Adige is the most common name in English. Trentino Alto Adige is still used ten times more often than Trentino-South Tyrol. I would rename the article Trentino-Alto Adige and in the introduction I would mention Trentino-South Tyrol immediately after. But the even greater point is: clumsy and Un-English (in terminology and usage) Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol must be replaced.---Patavium (talk) 20:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I can follow your reasoning, which results in "Trentino-Alto Adige". But "Trentino-Alto Adige" is a pure italian name, neither english, nor a compromise between italian/german, nor does it respect the mediation outcome, nor does it take into account that the mentioning of this region is declining (having it become an empty shell). The second sentence states, that the region consists of two provinces: Trentino and South Tyrol - let the name respect that fact, or leave this page alone.--Sajoch (talk) 09:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * We must follow common usage, as we did in the case of South Tyrol and Trentino. No double standards please. By the way, Trentino is also pure Italian, it is not a compromise, it is common usage. We need no mediation (Wikipedia is not a democracy) if common usage is clear: in this case it is clearly Trentino-Alto Adige. As to the alleged decline, Trentino-Alto Adige is still used 10 times more often than Trentino-South Tyrol. But as I said, even Trentino-South Tyrol would be better than the solution we have now, which blatantly goes against English usage. English usage is Trentino-Alto Adige in first place and Trentino-South Tyrol in second place. We should not invent artificial titles which are used by nobody but Wikipedia, which must instead reflect common usage.--Patavium (talk) 10:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * We can follow common usage if it is not in conflict with WP:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names) and the policy of WP:Neutral_point_of_view. Common usage does not override that. In this case we take the official name as given in the English version of the Italian constitution. Gryffindor (talk) 14:26, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I cannot see your point. When it was about to rename the province of Bolzano-Bozen into German-like South Tyrol WP:Neutral_point_of_view did not matter at all. In the case of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol you do not agree with the move to "Italian" Trentino-Alto Adige (common usage in English) because in your eyes it would go against WP:Neutral_point_of_view. Double standards, what was to be demonstrated.--Patavium (talk) 14:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Most common name goes if it adheres to the policy of neutrality. In this case it clearly does not, so please do not accuse anyone of double standards. Gryffindor (talk) 16:14, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It was not an accusation, but a simple constation.--Patavium (talk) 19:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I won't make a secret out of my deep dislike for the invented name "Alto Adige" and how it was purposefully created to destroy German-Tyrolean culture south of the Brenner, but we have to remain consistent in our standards if we don't want to lay the seeds for yet another discussion in the future. We have to break the cycle of naming and renaming debates and the only way I can see to achieve it is by applying one and the same standard throughout the entire debate. Although "Alto Adige" is, unlike "South Tyrol", a purely Italian name, it appears to be nonetheless much more common in English usage as far as the region Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol is concerned. Since the naming convention is not about where names originally come from, but how often they are used in English, "Trentino-Alto Adige" is preferable over "Trentino-South Tyrol" which is more English, but – this is the point – much less common in English. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 16:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * We need no mediation. This whole vote goes against conventions and cannot be regarded as valid. Trentino Alto-Adige is used more often in English. Such as South Tyrol is used more often than Alto Adige, which is why the constitutional name Alto Adige/Südtirol was rejected and any possible compromise was blocked due to common usage. Full stop.--Patavium (talk) 19:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * ah sorry to chip in Patavium: we actually already had a mediation and the current name is the result of this mediation 4 years ago (see above for the links) and because of that I am unwilling to change the current name, as all parties involved back then agreed to this compromise. noclador (talk) 19:57, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * For 4 years we had province of Bolzano-Bozen as title for South Tyrol. 4 years without edit wars, 4 years of (at least implicit) consensus. It was decided to change it according to common usage. I have no problem with that. But in the case of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol things seem to be immutable. That makes no sense and it goes against the common usage rule. Sorry, but we cannot hold a poll to subvert wikipedia standards. I repeat for the nth time: this is not a democracy. Any alternative is better than the clumsy hybrid Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, for the simple reason that its usage in English is extremely limited if not totally absent. Unless we want to operate double standards.--Patavium (talk) 20:22, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Oppose per Gryffindor. The current name is the correct name. Outback the koala (talk) 16:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Support move/rename - I agree with the reasons as outlined by the nominator. This is the English Wikipedia, and according to the policy of WP:COMMONNAME, this article does not, and should not, use the subject's name as it might be spelled in non-English languages as its article title; it instead uses the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. Dolovis (talk) 14:56, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move request at Province of Trento

 * As it is connected to this discussion I would like to invite editors to please check out the similar move request at Talk:Province of Trento where a request has been made to move the article to Trentino. noclador (talk) 08:38, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

More appropriate name
The current name gives the impression that there are two names for this region #1 "Trentino-Alto Adige", and #2 "Südtirol" (that is to say, that all of it can be called "Südtirol"). Its a bad idea. Its also a bad idea to call it simply "Trentino-Alto Adige" per the many valid arguments listed above. Since on this project "Alto Adige/Südtirol" is named South Tyrol, this article should be renamed to "Trentino-South Tyrol" per WP:EN (among other things). -- Director  ( talk )  17:09, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with you (and most others), that the article should be renamed to "Trentino-South Tyrol", but due to different opinions it was subject to mediation in October 2006. Please see above. There's hardly any reference to the regions name, sources mostly talk about one of the two provinces Trentino or South Tyrol. If you find some prominent sources citing "Trentino-South Tyrol", you're welcome to report it here.--Sajoch (talk) 18:13, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * How about 1,300 sources? I despise mediations: they're a useless, contemptible waste of time and contributions, and they often do far more damage than good. Lets just move the damn thing.. -- Director  ( talk )  19:04, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I did that too (see the table above, which I inserted on 17 April 2011). Others will then search for the occurence of "Trentino-Alto Adige" and argue that it appears much more often... You really should re-read the above discussion. This page is on many people's radar, and I suspect another endlesses discussion will follow. Though the new view-point you bring against "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" is, that it gives a wrong impression that there may be two names... --Sajoch (talk) 19:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Sajoch's right, of course. You can show 1,300 results for "Trentino-South Tyrol", and I'll show you 419,000 results for "Trentino-Alto Adige". :) Dohn joe (talk) 19:38, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Fellas, I've been around the block here: I'm not saying its the most common. I'm saying its in-line with WP:EN and WP:NPOV. We're supposed to look for the most common, neutral English-language name. -- Director  ( talk )  19:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

 * Even if I think we should care more about the content, which is severely omissive with respect to history of the region between 1943 and 1988, than about the title, any solution is definitely better than artificial and exotic Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. Trentino-Alto Adige works very well, Trentino-South Tyrol works well, even Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol would somehow work. For sure, the present solution does not work in an encyclopaedia written for English-speakers. Therefore I agree with DIREKTOR that a more appropiate name should be used.--Patavium (talk) 20:31, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm glad, Patavium agrees using "Trentino-South Tyrol". The only problem remains, that "Trentino-South Tyrol" isn't used much in literature. My advise: there's no hurry: the region is a topic of modest relevance - and the single provinces use already their correct name.--Sajoch (talk) 21:14, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

 * If the final name is to be Trentino-South Tyrol (sounds more English), Trentino-Alto Adige (is more common) or Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol (common and sounds English) needs to be assessed. For sure, Trentino-South Tyrol is miles better than Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. I even would suggest to move the article immediately to any one of those titles while we are discussing. For sure, the present pseudo-compromise must be removed the sooner the better. The old mediation went against WP:EN.
 * the region is a topic of modest relevance. No it is not. It is a High-importance Italy article.--Patavium (talk) 21:54, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

 * I think the article name should be either Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol or Trentino-South Tyrol. Like mentioned in the earlier move discussion, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol is used in the Italian constitution, and it would be a compromise between the Italian and German languages, the latter of which is the majority language in South Tyrol. And I think there would be a problem with Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. That would translate the German name of South Tyrol but not the Italian name. If we want to include "South Tyrol" to the article name, then it should be Trentino-South Tyrol because Alto Adige is just South Tyrol in Italian. --August90 (talk) 10:13, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Like I said, the problem with the current "compromise" version is it that gives the impression that the two names of this region are "Trentino-Alto Adige" and "Südtirol". -- Director  ( talk )  10:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Well, historically Südtirol indicates today's Trentino-Alto Adige or today's Trentino. The province of Bolzano was Mitteltirol. So from this point of view the title is fine.--Patavium (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This article is about todays region, not some entity in the past. 215 years ago "Alto Adige" was a district between Verona, Brescia and Mantova... So to avoid confusion, we should move to "Trentino-South Tyrol".--Sajoch (talk) 21:32, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I would've already gone through with a good-faith move, but it seems the article is move-protected. -- Director  ( talk )  21:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Südtirol was established in the 1970s.
 * As far as I know Trentino-Alto Adige is more common in English.
 * Anyway, what the Italian Constitution says is relevant for the content of the article, not for its name.
 * I agree with DIREKTOR. It is a pity that the title of the article was blocked.--Patavium (talk) 21:43, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Can I go ahead and request an uncontroversial move? -- Director  ( talk )  10:08, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I would object to that. You can try an RM or an RFC. Dohn joe (talk) 18:06, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Disputed map

 * This map is original research by Sajoch and a manipulation of the Census.
 * Mocheno and Cimbrian are languages different from German http://www.statistica.provincia.tn.it/binary/pat_statistica/demografia/15CensGenPopolazione.1340956277.pdf 15° Censimento della popolazione e delle abitazioni Rilevazione sulla consistenza e la dislocazione territoriale degli appartenenti alle popolazioni di lingua ladina, mòchena e cimbra = 15th census of population and housing Enquiry about the number and the location of those who belong to the population of Ladin, Mocheno and Cimbrian language. Not a word about German language.
 * There is no assessment of Italian language in Trentino.
 * The statistic population of the census in Trentino and South Tyrol is different. Data cannot be mixed together.--Patavium (talk) 23:31, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Thank you for finally starting to discuss the topic. The first issue, however, is already explained in the article, citing the academic essay by Anthony R. Rowley whose title is more or less self-explanatory "Mocheno e Cimbro". Von Dialek(en) zu Sprache(n)? ("Mocheno and Cimbrian". From dialect(s) to language(s)?). He's explaining there how the legal recognition and and relation to the Standard German of these deutsche Sprachinseln (German dialect islands) is evolving. It is indeed a fact that the provincial laws avoid the word German, although the very first article speaks of popolazioni germanofone (German-speaking population) and first drafts still included the words tedesco (German) and di origine germanica (of German ancestry) and were only shortly rewritten. Anyway, in linguistics Mocheno and Cimbrian are still typically classified as German dialects and I don't see any kind of "original research" by Sajoch. The map provides the information where Mocheno and Cimbrian are spoken and reflects therefor the census. What Sajoch did is using a similar colour for Mocheno, Cimbrian and South Tyrolean German (which is linguistically justified) and subsuming them in the caption.
 * I don't get what you are saying. Are you denying that Italian is spoken in the red coloured areas?
 * I'll add that information to the file description. As long as we say clearly that the statistic population in the two provinces is different, we don't have any problems. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 08:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The document I took the data from, and we all are referring to, lists all communes with more than 4 persons declaring a minority language. And as no commune has less than 40 inhabitants, it's correct to assume, that there aren't any communes with less than 90% italian speaking people. Even if we assume there is a commune with 4 ladins, 4 mocheni and 4 cimbri (combined 12 minority-speakers), which is missing in the above document, and as the map shows language-ranges in steps of 10%, this commune can only be missing, if those 12 persons account for more than 10%, and thus the commune has at most 119 inhabitants. Such a small commune does not exist in Trentino (the smallest being Palù del Fersina with 169 inhabitants, where 93% declared mocheno btw.).--Sajoch (talk) 19:40, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

 * There is a statistical problem: the statistic population of the census in South Tyrol are the Italian citizens, in Trentino the inhabitants. It is not possible to mix them.
 * In Trentino only minorities are assessed, i.e. Cimbrian, Mocheno and Ladin. There is no assessment of Italian language.
 * The census does not say if in the rest of Trentino Italian in spoken. It could be Trentinian, Venetian, Lombard etc, but also Arab, Romanian etc. The census does not assess this.
 * Cimbrian and Mocheno are recognized as different languages under the so called Second Autonomy Statute.
 * In fact Mocheno and Cimbrian minorities have their own media in their languages.
 * Separate maps for Trentino (of course not the one manipulated by Sajoch) and South Tyrol would be statistically and factually correct.--Patavium (talk) 11:16, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * To Patavium: Please desist from dissing on User:Sajoch by publicly writing that he purposely "manipulated" facts, and keep a neutral tone. Assume WP:GOODFAITH and engage in a productive discussion. Gryffindor (talk) 12:16, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. But en.Wiki is not a planet out of this universe, if you know what I mean.--Patavium (talk) 12:35, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Patavium: if you have anything to object, please discuss it on Commons. As you are bad-mouthing any(!) map I created or updated, you aren't credible - it's only personal attacks.--Sajoch (talk) 15:43, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course not. You created some useful map, but you also created maps that simply do not correspond to what the sources say. The maps you created using the Italian census 2011 are not correct and should be therefore removed here. We already have much better ones. In fact, we are discussing about if your maps can be inserted into the encyclopaedia. Commons has different standards.
 * Maybe the problem is that the data of the census in Trentino are only in Italian, in this case we can find someone that helps.--Patavium (talk) 17:19, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that the statistic data for Trentino are credible.--Patavium (talk) 17:28, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Finally it is not a personal, but a statistical problem.--Patavium (talk) 17:34, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Since removing this map was not possible due to massive editwarring, at least the biggest mistakes were corrected. Please notice my disclaimer:
 * Please note that the method of gathering statistical data on the population in the two provinces was different and the data aren't directly comparable
 * In Trentino the statistical population is given by the inhabitants, in South Tyrol by the citizens;
 * In Trentino only minorities are assessed. There is no assessment of Italian language.
 * Thanks. --Patavium (talk) 20:22, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Excellent! The map has been removed finally! I had tried to remove it previously, but edit-warring made this impossible.
 * If someone wants to reinsert, please consider this disclaimer. The best thing would be not to reinsert it.--Patavium (talk) 22:27, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I have looked at your edits Patavium, and you are basically objecting that Mocheno and Cimbrian are bundled together as Germanic languages? Gryffindor (talk) 14:54, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

°== Provinces in Trentino-Alto Adige ==

Hello! I am Italian, and I am just a bit confused about the name of the provinces that are mentioned several times in this page. You always take into consideration 2 provinces, which you name "Trentino" and "South Tyrol", while, actually, the official names should be "Trento" and "Bolzano/Bozen" (Italian/German names). I don't know the reason why you called them differently, but I just wanted to point out that the way you call them isn't official. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.134.119.28 (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 07:37, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

As I said, I'm not referring to the title of the article, but to what is mentioned several time in it. Personally, I think it's ok to refer to those provinces with the names that are used at the moment, but I do think that also the official names should be added, at least once, not to confuse the readers. At least, in the administrative section of the page, I think the provinces should be named using their real name, not their geographical name. Just a thought — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.134.105.78 (talk) 17:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

 * First sentence of the chapter politics: The region is divided into two autonomous provinces: Trentino (Province of Trento) and South Tyrol (Province of Bolzano). --Mai-Sachme (talk) 06:39, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

 * Even the name "Alto Adige" is, I'd dare say, used more frequently than "provincia di Bolzano". And I should think this includes when speaking of the provinces' official institutions.--2001:A60:153D:1:95A6:D57E:4AA7:AD7 (talk) 14:09, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

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Please move the page from Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol to Trentino-Alto Adige
The region is called this For the two provinces that are within this region in the South there is Trentino while in the North there is South Tyrol which in Italian is called Alto Adige therefore since in English the province is called South Tyrol the name Correct English of this region is Trentino-South Tyro please move it because it is also a bit strange that in the English Wikipedia page there is the name of the region in two languages Alto Adige/Südtirol which is in German. 87.18.172.235 (talk) 11:08, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

 * "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" is the official name of the region, according to the Italian Constitution. I would not oppose a move to "Trentino-South Tyrol", to match South Tyrol, or the latter's move to "Alto Adige/Südtirol", to match "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol". The only option I oppose is "Trentino-Alto Adige". --Checco (talk) 12:24, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

 * Article 131 of the Italian Constitution still says "Trentino-Alto Adige".--Holapaco77 (talk) 21:25, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * And Article 116 says "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol". I don't have strong opinions about the matter, though... Mai-Sachme (talk) 08:52, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol


text:
Eden, New South Wales

Eden is a coastal town in the South Coast region of New South Wales, Australia. The town is 478 km south of the state capital Sydney and is the most southerly town in New South Wales, located between Nullica Bay to the south and Calle Calle Bay, the northern reach of Twofold Bay, and built on undulating land adjacent to the third-deepest natural harbour in the southern hemisphere, and Snug Cove on its western boundary. At the, Eden had a population of 3,151.

The eastern coastline has rugged cliffs at the southern end and a wide, sandy surf beach, Aslings Beach, north of the cliffs. The beach ends at the entrance to Lake Curalo, a safe boating inlet of Twofold Bay. Although the urban settlement of Eden commenced in 1843 the settlement was not officially proclaimed as a township until 20 March 1885. The town's main industries include fishing, forestry, and tourism.

History
The local Aboriginal people who lived in the region prior to the arrival of Europeans were the Thaua, or Thawa, people of the Yuin nation.

Whaling ships had been operating in the area in 1791. George Bass first took shelter in Twofold Bay on the return leg of a voyage to Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania) in February 1798, having noted the bay on the southward leg of this same voyage in December 1797. Later, in September of that year, on a subsequent voyage with Matthew Flinders, he and Flinders surveyed the bay for the first time. They also made first contact with the local Thawa Aboriginal people on this occasion.

The Australian botanist, Allan Cunningham, landed at Snug Cove in December 1817 so that he could collect botanical specimens from the district.

The first whaling station, for shore whaling, was established in the area by John Raine in 1828. Local Aboriginal people were employed in the whaling industry. In 1834 the Imlay brothers, Alexander, George and Peter, set up a whaling station at Snug Cove. Nearby they built a small slab and bark hut, the first-known building erected at Eden. Sketches of the hut were made by Sir Oswald Brierly in 1842 and by Captain Owen Stanley from HMS Rattlesnake in 1843. In around 1860 Davidson commenced a partnership with the Solomon family of Eden-Monaro. Initially the prevalent orcas were seen by the partnership as a nuisance. But the Yuin aboriginals employed on the boat crews refused to kill orcas, and a new policy encouraged collaboration between whalers and the killer whales; the killer whales would trap humpback whales that entered Twofold Bay, the whales would then be harpooned, and the orcas rewarded with prize pieces of the humpback carcasses.

The graziers from the Monaro district inland from Twofold Bay were seeking a better way to transport their cattle to Hobart, Tasmania. It was decided to establish cattle-handling facilities and an accompanying township on an appropriate site on Twofold Bay. Thus, in 1834, the Home Government authorised the captain of HMS Alligator to seek an appropriate site for a settlement on Twofold Bay. Early in 1835 the Governor of New South Wales, Governor Richard Bourke, visited Twofold Bay and the site of the proposed new settlement on board HMS Hyacinth.

Eventually the area for the proposed town, to be called Eden, was surveyed in 1842 by Mr Thomas Townsend, the Government Surveyor. The main street, Imlay Street, was named after the Imlay brothers who were early pioneers to the district. Other streets were named after Lieutenant Flinders, George Bass, Queen Victoria and her consort, Prince Albert. A wharf was built out into a cove, now named Cattle Bay, from a site on the western edge of Eden, where cattle could be grazed prior to their being loaded onto the ships. Cattle were also grazed on Lookout Point until 1853, then this land was subdivided for housing.

Eden was named after George Eden, 1st Earl of Auckland, the British Secretary for the Colonies, Baron Auckland, whose family name was Eden. After the town plan was finalised the first blocks were auctioned on 9 March 1843. The land was sold to Thomas Aspinall, Benjamin Boyd, S. Clinton, Lewes Gordon, W. Hirst, James Kirwan, J.P. Robinson and T.A. Townsend.

The first postmaster was appointed in 1843 but the first post office did not open until 1847. The Customs House was built in Eden in 1848. Earlier the first customs officer was appointed in 1846 but he was located at East Boyd initially, until the customs house was constructed.

Eden grew in the 1850s following the decline of nearby Boydtown, and the discovery of gold in Kiandra, which led to the 1859–1860 gold rush. For a few hectic months hundreds of gold seekers landed at Eden, replenished their supplies then headed for Kiandra. With the winter snow falls at Kiandra came the hurried exodus of those same people keen to leave the district as soon as possible. For a short period Eden flourished, only to quickly return to its usual quiet pace again.

In the 1850s there were four hotels in Eden. One of these hotels, the Crown and Anchor first licensed in 1845, still stands. It is no longer licensed but it still provides accommodation to travellers. Just south of this building is another built in 1850 as a commercial premises. Various businesses occupied the site. The building is now used as a private dwelling. The first government school started in 1857. The school attached to St Joseph's Roman Catholic church commenced in 1888. There were also several private tutors in Eden.

The shipping of cattle from Eden ceased in the late 1890s. Prior to that the business had expanded to include the shipping of cattle to South Australia, Queensland and to New Zealand.

Because Eden is equidistant between Sydney and both Melbourne and Tasmania, the port town was considered as a location for the Australian capital following Australian Federation in 1901. However, the ‘Limestone Plains’ in southern New South Wales were chosen instead as the location of the new city of Canberra.

Whaling declined in the 1920s and ended in 1930.

Population
According to the 2021 census of Population, there were 3,350 people in Eden.
 * Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people made up 8.2% of the population.
 * 79.0% of people were born in Australia and 87.7% of people spoke only English at home.
 * The most common responses for religion were No Religion 43.2%, Anglican 18.1% and Catholic 17.6%.

Local radio
2SEA FM (Eden Community Radio) broadcasts along the Sapphire Coast of New South Wales, Australia, servicing the towns of Eden, Pambula and Merimbula as well as the surrounding districts. 2SEA FM is a not-for-profit community radio station that relies on volunteers to provide programming, and sponsors for the finance to be able to go to air.

Government
From its inception Eden was located in the County of Auckland, named earlier after the Earl of Auckland from whom Eden also took its name. However, the County of Auckland was not considered to be within the bounds of the Colony of New South Wales until many years after the settlement of Eden commenced.

The town of Eden lies within the Bega Valley Shire local government area. It is within the federal electorate of Eden-Monaro, which has for a long time been a key marginal seat, resulting in significant focus by the media and political parties during election campaigns. It is represented in the New South Wales Legislative Assembly by the electorate of Bega.

Industry
Horse-racing commenced in Eden in the mid-1850s and continued until the mid-1920s. The racecourse was located on the northern bank of Lake Curalo.

A number of industries were based in the town in the mid-2000s. These are mainly related to the tourist industry and include a wide variety of accommodation, places to eat and entertainment, especially fishing and sailing. As well, cruises of Twofold Bay and for whale-watching leave the Eden Wharf located in Snug Cove. The cruise of Nullica Bay, Twofold Bay, allows close views of the two major wharves mentioned in the article on Twofold Bay.

Tourism contributes AU$180 million yearly to the economy of the shire, which includes Bega and several other towns. The area receives 550,000 visitors annually. Many people visit Eden for whale watching as whales migrate from Antarctic to tropical waters in June and July, and back again later in the year.

A significant fishing fleet is based in the harbour (Snug Cove). A tuna cannery opened in the town in 1949. It was closed in 1999, at the cost of many jobs. Sawmilling of timber has also been an important local industry for most of the life of the town. For over one hundred years the collection and export of wattle-bark was also a major local industry.

Whaling played a very important role in the town's economy for over 100 years before its decline in the area in the 1920s and its end in 1930. The Eden Killer Whale Museum informs visitors of the history of whaling in the area and the role of orcas (killer whales) led by Old Tom in herding whales into the harbour and helping whalers kill them. The whalers rewarded the orcas by allowing them to eat the lips and tongues of the dead whales.

Port of Eden
The Port of Eden is one of two regional ports in New South Wales administered by the New South Wales Maritime Authority, the other is at Yamba on the North Coast. The Port of Eden is the largest fishing port in New South Wales. The major export handled by the port is woodchips. The port is shared with the Department of Defence who have constructed a large wharf for the servicing of their warships. The port also handles cruise ships.

From the 1850s to 1950s the port was serviced by the Illawarra Steam Navigation Company.

In 2021 the Port of Eden became the ceremonial home port for Royal Australian Navy auxiliary ship HMAS Supply (A195) the crew of which have adopted the killer whales of Eden as the official mascot.

Notable people

 * Liz Cambage (born 1991), basketball player in the Israeli Female Basketball Premier League
 * Brett Kelly, rugby league player
 * Peter Kelly, rugby league player
 * Mary Braidwood Mowle, diarist
 * Corey Stewart, rugby league player

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Eden, New South Wales


text:
Curry Mallet

Curry Mallet (anciently "Cory Mallett") is a village and parish in Somerset, England. It is on the Fivehead River (also known as the River Ile), 7 mi east of Taunton in the South Somerset district. The village has a population of 306.

History
At the time of the Domesday Book in 1086 the manor was held by Roger de Courselles, also the owner of Fisherton in Wiltshire, which was held under Curry. It later passed to the Malet (also spelt as Mallet or Mallett) family, with William Malet, one of the guarantors of Magna Carta, lord of the manor in 1215. It passed on through the descendants of the Malet family until 1356 when it was sold to Sir Matthew Gourney and his family until 1443 when the estate passed to the king and became part of the Duchy of Cornwall.

Curry Mallet was part of the hundred of Abdick and Bulstone.

The Manor House is a Grade II* listed building, includes a Great Hall (or perhaps a barn) of the 15th century, and a small irregular manor house of the late 16th century. It stands on the site of, and incorporates parts of, the castle built by William Malet, a Norman knight who fought at the Battle of Hastings.

In World War II, pillboxes were placed in the village as part of the Taunton Stop Line.

Governance
The parish council has responsibility for local issues, including setting an annual precept (local rate) to cover the council's operating costs and producing annual accounts for public scrutiny. The parish council evaluates local planning applications and works with the local police, district council officers, and neighbourhood watch groups on matters of crime, security, and traffic. The parish council's role also includes initiating projects for the maintenance and repair of parish facilities, as well as consulting with the district council on the maintenance, repair, and improvement of highways, drainage, footpaths, public transport, and street cleaning. Conservation matters (including trees and listed buildings) and environmental issues are also the responsibility of the council.

The village falls within the Non-metropolitan district of South Somerset, which was formed on 1 April 1974 under the Local Government Act 1972, having previously been part of Langport Rural District. The district council is responsible for local planning and building control, local roads, council housing, environmental health, markets and fairs, refuse collection and recycling, cemeteries and crematoria, leisure services, parks, and tourism.

Somerset County Council is responsible for running the largest and most expensive local services such as education, social services, libraries, main roads, public transport, policing and fire services, trading standards, waste disposal and strategic planning.

It is also part of a county constituency represented in the House of Commons of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It elects one Member of Parliament (MP) by the first past the post system of election, and was part of the South West England constituency of the European Parliament prior to Britain leaving the European Union in January 2020, which elected seven MEPs using the d'Hondt method of party-list proportional representation.

Religious sites
The parish Church of St James has 13th-century origins and has been designated as a Grade I listed building.

School
Curry Mallet Primary School is the small community Church of England school located within the village.

Legends and Haunting of the Manor
In legend three streams are said to run under the manor leading directly to the holy well at the foot of Glastonbury Tor.

Although unsubstantiated, numerous reports exist of the haunting of the manor house. The most frequently reported apparition is that of a woman in Elizabethan costume. In addition, the Great Hall is said to be haunted by a pacing man. The sound of metallic clashes, possibly resulting from a ghostly duel, have been heard echoing in the courtyard.

title: Curry Mallet


text:
British Rail Class 20

The British Rail Class 20, otherwise known as an English Electric Type 1, is a class of diesel-electric locomotive. In total, 228 locomotives in the class were built by English Electric between 1957 and 1968, the large number being in part because of the failure of other early designs in the same power range to provide reliable locomotives.

The locomotives were originally numbered D8000–D8199 and D8300–D8327. They are known by railway enthusiasts as "Choppers".

Overview
Designed around relatively basic technology, the 73-tonne locomotives produce 1000 hp and can operate at up to 75 mph. Designed to work light mixed freight traffic, they have no train heating facilities. Locomotives up to D8127 were fitted with disc indicators in the style of the steam era; when headcodes were introduced in 1960 the locomotive's design was changed to incorporate headcode boxes. Although older locomotives were not retro-fitted with headcode boxes, a few of the earlier batch acquired headcode boxes as a result of repairs. Unusually for British designs, the locomotive had a single cab. This caused serious problems with visibility when travelling nose first, though in these circumstances the driver's view is comparable to that on the steam locomotives that the Class 20s replaced. It was common, however, to find Class 20s paired together at the nose, with their cabs at opposite ends, ensuring that the driver could quite clearly see the road ahead, and a guard can watch the train from the other locomotive without the need for a brakevan. The Class 20 saw only limited service on passenger trains. A small number were fitted with a through pipe for steam heating, primarily for use in conjunction with a Class 27 locomotive on the West Highland Line. Otherwise their use was limited to summer relief services, particularly to Skegness often under the adopted title of The Jolly Fisherman starting from various places including Burton-on-Trent, Stoke-on-Trent, Derby and Leicester. Also occasionally other holiday resorts on the east coast of England, occasional duties as a pilot, and short distance diversions of electric-hauled trains over non-electrified lines.

The shift of light mixed freight to the road network left British Rail with an oversupply of small locomotives. The Class 20s, however, could work in multiple and so handle heavier traffic. Most spent the majority of their working lives coupled nose to nose in pairs to provide a more useful 2000 hp unit and to solve the visibility problems.

Most have now been withdrawn but a few remain with GBRf and other minor and industrial operators. Several that are usually operated singly have been fitted with nose-mounted video cameras as a way of solving the visibility problems.

The Série 1400 locomotives of Portuguese Railways (CP) and the G class locomotives of Midland Railway of Western Australia are based on the BR Class 20s, with the latter units featuring a different cab, based on the Jamaican Railways Class 81.

British Rail
The first batch of Class 20s were allocated to Devons Road depot in Bow, London to work cross-London transfer freights, with the following eight locos allocated to Hornsey depot. After a trial with D8006, D8028–D8034 were allocated for work in highland Scotland, and had tablet catcher recesses built into the cabsides. D8035–D8044 were originally to be allocated to Norwich, but were actually used for empty coaching stock (ECS) workings in and out of London Euston. D8050–D8069 were allocated to the new Tinsley TMD in South Yorkshire, from where they regularly worked into Lincolnshire and East Yorkshire. D8070–D8127 were sent to operate in the Scottish Lowlands, particularly in the Forth-Clyde area, and the Fife coalfield. This completed the original orders for 128 locos, the last being delivered in August 1962.

With the subsequent order for a further 100 Class 20 locos, deliveries recommenced with D8128 in January 1966. Tests in 1967 using D8179 and D8317 resulted in locos from D8316 being delivered from the manufacturer with the new electronic control system for working merry-go-round (MGR) coal trains. Trains to Longannet Power Station sometimes required locos to triple-head trains.

After privatisation
Some Class 20s were used on the construction of the Channel Tunnel and High Speed 1 and some even made their way to France to work for the Compagnie des chemins de Fer Départementaux (CFD) in industry there, although these have since been repatriated. Some locos have in the past been hired by Hunslet-Barclay to provide motive power for weedkilling trains.

The fleet of Class 20/3s owned by Direct Rail Services (DRS) has at times seen frequent work across Britain in pairs (or with Class 37s) on nuclear flask trains, the company's speciality. DRS supplies class 20s for use with the Rail Head Treatment Train in winter. Perhaps the most unusual train hauled by a Class 20 was the Kosovo Train for Life charter train in autumn 1999 which carried 800 tonnes of aid. Leaving London's Kensington Olympia station on 17 September 1999, the train was hauled by 20 901, 20 902 and 20 903 throughout, reaching Prague by 20 September and arriving at Pristina station at 10:00 on 25 September.

DRS initially had a fleet of 15 operational Class 20/3 locomotives. Three of these have subsequently been disposed of for scrap, after stripping for spares; a further two have been sold on to Harry Needle Railroad Company (HNRC). Following the end of the 2019 Sandite season (Rail Head Treatment Trains), all of the remaining DRS Class 20/3 fleet were stood down, awaiting disposal.

In 2005 HNRC acquired a large number of 20/0s and 20/9s from the stored DRS fleet. By May 2008 HNRC had eight operational Class 20s and sixteen in storage; two were on hire at Corus Scunthorpe (nos. 81 and 82).

Over a ten-year period, concluding in 2019, a number of class 20s from HNRC were employed to deliver new S-Stock from Bombardier Transportation at Derby Litchurch Lane Works, to London Underground at Neasden depot or West Ruislip depot, for commissioning. Subsequently, immediately after the completion of deliveries, modification of these units (addition of equipment for automatic signalling) was required and they were returned to Derby in the same manner. Formation of the trains usually consisted of a pair of Class 20s, two barrier wagons, the LU S-Stock set, two barrier wagons and a dead-in-tow pair of Class 20s at the rear.

British Rail
D8000 was delivered in June 1957 in overall green livery, with grey footplate, red bufferbeams and a grey roof extending down the bodyside to the edge of the roof panels. The original batch of 10 locos bore the BR crest facing towards the nose on both sides, used yellow sans serif numerals, and had green cab roofs; locos from D8010 had the correct pattern BR crest, white numerals and grey cab roof. This was adjusted after D8103 to include a small yellow warning panel, although the precise size and detail of such panels varied somewhat.

In 1966, D8048 was selected by the BR design panel for livery experiments and was painted in the prototype standard blue, including the bufferbeams and roof. The exceptions were the full yellow front ends and a black underframe. After the adoption of Rail Blue as the BR livery, D8178 became one of the first locomotives to be delivered in this livery (along with Class 25 D7660 and Class 47 D1953) and all subsequent locomotives were delivered in this livery. Despite this, some locos continued to be returned to traffic in green livery, although often with the later BR "double arrow" logo and data panel; thus 20 141 was the final main line loco to carry BR green livery.

Some locomotives, including 20 227, were repainted in the Railfreight grey livery with red sole bars, yellow ends and large double arrows on the sides.

At least four of the class were painted in the British Rail Telecommunications livery:
 * 20 075 – Sir William Cooke – rebuilt as 20 309 and currently stood down by DRS, awaiting disposal
 * 20 128 – Guglielmo Marconi – rebuilt as 20 307 and has been scrapped
 * 20 131 – Almon B. Strowger – rebuilt as 20 306 and has been scrapped
 * 20 187 – Sir Charles Wheatstone – rebuilt as 20 308 and currently stood down by DRS, awaiting disposal

Privatisation

Class 20/3 locomotives operated by DRS have all been painted in DRS Oxford Blue livery, with red bufferbeams and full yellow ends. There have been small variations in the shade of yellow used on these locos, and the penetration of blue from the sides onto the ends.

Class 20 locomotives operated by the Harry Needle Railroad Company (HNRC) are painted into house colours of orange and black, with yellow nose ends (20 121, 20 166, 20 311 and 20 314). Some other locomotives owned by HNRC, of subclasses 20/0 and 20/9, have been painted in a variation of two-tone Railfreight grey livery. These have dark grey roof, mid-grey upper body and light grey lower body, black underframe and buffer beam. The nose ends are painted yellow, with the lower part of the cab end in yellow and the upper part black, this continuing around the cab sides but with the light grey instead of yellow. Others are in BR Blue or Railfreight Red-stripe livery.

HNRC Class 20s on long-term hire to Corus were painted in Corus livery; previously silver but currently a bright yellow with red solebar (No.81 – 20 056). Since the Corus business was bought by the Indian Tata Steel group, some of these locomotives have been repainted into Tata Blue livery (No.82 – 20 066). Two HNRC Class 20s have been painted into GBRf Europorte's blue and gold livery (20 901 and 20 905), while two other HNRC Class 20s have been painted in the White livery of Hope Construction Materials (now Breedon Cement), with a black solebar (No.2 – 20 168) and a white solebar (No.3 – 20 906).

Four locomotives carried the orange and white livery of the CFD (Compagnie de Chemins de Fer Départementaux) whilst working in France, these were 20 035, 20 063, 20 139 and 20 228.

Two locomotives, numbers 20 142 and 20 189, were briefly (for a matter of months during 2013) painted into a Balfour Beatty blue and white livery but were then returned to a variation of BR blue.

The last built class 20, number 20 227, has been used extensively on the London Underground network. In the mid-2000s it was painted in Metropolitan maroon livery and named "Sir John Betjeman" by the Class 20 Locomotive Society as acknowledgement of this work. It was repainted in a special 'modern taste' LUL-based livery, to mark the London Underground 150 celebrations but has now been repainted, again into Metropolitan maroon, but this time lined, and renamed "Sherlock Holmes". The "Sir John Betjeman" name is now carried by 20 142, which also sports Metropolitan lined maroon livery.

Mainline registered class 20s are:

Accidents and incidents

 * On 16 December 1971, locomotives D8142 and D8115 collided with Class 25 no. D7605 at Lenton South Junction, Nottingham, killing 3 railwaymen.
 * On 18 May 1989, locomotives 20 134 and 20 131 collided with the rear of an MGR train at Worksop, killing the driver.
 * On 21 September 2021, 20 189 collided with a rake of carriages at Grosmont, North Yorkshire Moors Railway. Five passengers on the heritage railway service were injured.

In popular culture
For the 1995 James Bond film GoldenEye, a Class 20 (20 188) on the Nene Valley Railway was made to look like a Russian armoured train with the addition of fake armour.

Preservation
22 English-Electric Type 1 Class 20s are preserved, including the first of the class built, D8000, which is part of the National Railway Collection at the National Railway Museum in York, North Yorkshire.

A further three engines were preserved but later used for spares, then eventually scrapped. 20 035 was stripped of parts for use on fellow Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway based classmate D8137, and later scrapped at EMR Kingsbury. 20 177 was located at the Severn Valley Railway and became a source of spare parts for D8188 & D8059; with the remains first going to C.F. Booth Ltd., Rotherham and then the cab section to The Cab Yard in south Wales. 20206 was operated on the Mid-Norfolk Railway, but later sold by its owner, stripped of parts and scrapped.

Model railways
In 2008 Hornby Railways launched its first version of the BR Class 20 in OO gauge.

In May 2021 Bachmann Collectors Club announced a limited edition run of two London Transport models of the class 20, No. 20142 Sir John Betjeman and No. 20227 Sherlock Holmes. The models are produced in conjunction with the London Transport Museum,

title: British Rail Class 20


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Yuya

Yuya (sometimes Iouiya, or Yuaa, also known as Yaa, Ya, Yiya, Yayi, Yu, Yuyu, Yaya, Yiay, Yia, and Yuy) was a powerful ancient Egyptian courtier during the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt (circa 1390 BC). He was married to Thuya, an Egyptian noblewoman associated with the royal family, who held high offices in the governmental and religious hierarchies. Their daughter, Tiye, became the Great Royal Wife of Amenhotep III. Yuya and Thuya are known to have had a son named Anen, who carried the titles "Chancellor of Lower Egypt", "Second Prophet of Amun", "Sm-priest of Heliopolis", and "Divine Father".

They may also have been the parents of Ay, an Egyptian courtier active during the reign of Akhenaten, who eventually became pharaoh as Kheperkheprure Ay. There is no conclusive evidence, however, regarding the kinship of Yuya and Ay, although certainly both men came from the town of Akhmim.

The tomb of Yuya and Thuya was, until the discovery of Tutankhamun's, one of the most spectacular ever found in the Valley of the Kings despite Yuya not being a pharaoh. Although the burial site was robbed in antiquity, many objects not considered worth plundering by the robbers remained. Both the mummies were largely intact and were in an amazing state of preservation. Their faces in particular were relatively undistorted by the process of mummification, and provide an extraordinary insight into the actual appearance of the deceased while alive (see photographs).

Origins
Yuya came from the Upper Egyptian town of Akhmim, where he probably owned an estate and was a wealthy member of the town's local nobility. His origins remain unclear. In his study of Yuya's mummy the anatomist Grafton Elliot Smith noted that although his features are not classically Egyptian, he considers that there was much migration from neighbouring countries throughout Egyptian history and "it would be rash to offer a final opinion on the subject of Yuaa's nationality." Quibell likewise addressed the "old suggestion" that Yuya was foreign, noting that the only piece of evidence in favour of this was the multiple spellings of his name. No trace of a foreign origin was found in the furniture from the tomb either, all being typically Egyptian.

Taking into account his unusual name and features, some Egyptologists believe that Yuya was of foreign origin (usually Syrian), although this is far from certain. The name Yuya may be spelled in a number of different ways, as Gaston Maspero noted in Theodore Davis's 1907 book—The Tomb of Iouiya and Touiyou. These include "iAy", "ywiA", yw [reed-leaf with walking feet] A, ywiw" and, in orthography—normally a sign of something foreign—"y [man with hand to mouth] iA".

The Biographical Dictionary of Ancient Egypt gives credence to the foreign origin hypothesis: "It is conceivable that he had some Mitannian ancestry, since it is known that knowledge of horses and chariotry was introduced into Egypt from the northern lands and Yuya was the king's 'Master of the Horse'." It also discusses the possibility that Yuya was the brother of queen Mutemwiya, who was the mother of Pharaoh Amenhotep III and may have had Mitannian royal origins. However, this hypothesis can not be substantiated, since nothing is known of Mutemwiya's background. While Yuya lived in Upper Egypt, an area that was predominantly native Egyptian, he could have been an assimilated descendant of Asiatic immigrants or slaves who rose to become a member of the local nobility at Akhmin. On the other hand, if he was not a foreigner, then Yuya would have been the native Egyptian whose daughter was married to Amenhotep III. Yuya is believed to have died in his mid fifties, in around 1374 BC.

Career
Yuya served as a key adviser for Amenhotep III, and held posts such as "King’s Lieutenant" and "Master of the Horse"; his title "Father-of-the-god" possibly referred specifically to his being Amenhotep's father-in-law. In his native town of Akhmin, Yuya was a prophet of Min, the chief god of the area, and served as this deity's "Superintendent of Cattle".

Tomb

Yuya and his wife were buried in the Valley of the Kings at Thebes, where their private tomb, now numbered KV46, was discovered in 1905 by James Quibell, who was working on behalf of Theodore M. Davis. Although the tomb had been penetrated by tomb-robbers, perhaps they were disturbed as Quibell found most of the funerary goods and the two mummies virtually intact. As the Egyptologist Cyril Aldred noted: "Though the tomb had been rifled in antiquity, the [tomb's] opulent funerary furniture was largely intact, and there was no doubt as to the identity of the pair, who were found resting among their torn linen wrappings, within their nests of coffins."

The tomb and the burials it contained were the most complete found in the Valley prior to the discovery of the tomb of Tutankhamun.

Yuya was interred within a rectangular wooden sarcophagus placed against the north wall; its lid was shaped like the vaulted per-nu shrine of Lower Egypt. Though appearing to sit on sledge runners, it had no base so the three nested gilded (and silvered) anthropoid coffins sat flat on the floor. The long south side of the sarcophagus had been broken in by ancient robbers, who had also moved the short eastern side and left the lid askew, balancing precariously. The lids of each of the nested coffins had been removed with two placed atop each other supported by a chair, and one tipped on its side next to the sarcophagus; the troughs were left in place. His gilt cartonnage mask was still in place, although it was broken.

Mummy
The mummy of Yuya was found partially wrapped with only his torso being divested of wrappings by ancient robbers. Despite this disturbance, the thieves had missed the gold plate (113 x) covering the embalming incision. When the body of Yuya was removed from his innermost coffin, a partially strung necklace composed of large gold and lapis lazuli beads was found behind his neck, where it had presumably fallen after being snapped by looters. The intact wrappings covering his head were removed before the body was shipped to Cairo.

Yuya's mummy was first examined by the Australian anatomist Grafton Elliot Smith. He found the body of Yuya is that of an old man, 1.651 m tall, with white wavy hair discoloured by the embalming process; his eyebrows and eyelashes were dark brown. His ears are unpierced. The arms are bent with his hands placed under his chin. The left hand is fisted, while the fingers of the right are extended. A gold finger stall was found on the little finger of the right hand. There were linen embalming packs placed in front of the eyes, and the body cavity was stuffed with resin-treated linen packs. Smith guessed his age at death to be 60 based on outward appearance alone. Modern CT scanning has estimated his age at death to be 50–60 years, based on the level of joint degeneration and tooth wear. The scanning also revealed two separate levels of resin inside the skull. Packing had been inserted into his mouth, as well as under the skin of his neck to produce a life-like appearance. His cause of death could not be identified. Maspero judged that, based on the position of the sarcophagi, Yuya was the first to die and be interred in the tomb. However, the large eyes and small nose and mouth seen on his funerary mask suggests it was made during the last decade of the reign of Amenhotep III, meaning he may have outlived Thuya. His mummy has the inventory number CG 51190.

Proposed identification with biblical Joseph
Ahmed Osman, in his book Stranger in the Valley of the Kings, has suggested an identification between Joseph, the ancient Hebrew patriarch who led the tribe of Israel into Egypt during a famine, and Yuya. This theory has not been accepted in mainstream Egyptology. Donald B. Redford wrote a scathing review of Stranger in the Valley of the Kings for Biblical Archaeology Review. Similarly, Deborah Sweeney has expressed great doubt toward the proposed identification. Sweeney states that the title "God's father of the Lord of the Two Lands" is an extension of the title "God's Father", which is not exclusive to Yuya. The Bible claims that Joseph's mummified body was exhumed and transported to Canaan by the Israelites, while Yuya's remained undisturbed in the Valley of the Kings in Egypt, where his mummy was discovered in 1905.

title: Yuya


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Curry Rivel

Curry Rivel is a village and civil parish in Somerset, England, situated 6 mi west of Somerton and 10 mi east of Taunton in the South Somerset district. The parish has a population of 2,148. The parish includes the hamlet of Burton Pynsent.

History
The site of a Roman house has been discovered south of Fairview House. The site is on the Heritage at Risk Register due to ploughing.

The unusual name Curry Rivel, comes from the Celtic word crwy, meaning boundary and Rivel from its 12th century landlord Sir Richard Revel.

In 1237 the king granted Henry de l'Orti a licence to empark his woods in Curry Rivel separating it from the control of the foresters of Castle Neroche.

Curry Rivel was part of the hundred of Abdick and Bulstone.

Notable structures
Earnshill House was built in 1725 by John Strachan for Henry Combe, a prominent Bristol merchant.

Burton Pynsent House was built around 1756 for William Pitt, after he inherited the estate from Sir William Pynsent, 2nd Baronet. It formed part of a wing on a larger earlier house, that was demolished around 1805. It has been designated by English Heritage as a Grade II* listed building. The grounds were laid out in the mid 18th century by Lancelot Brown and William Pitt, Earl of Chatham, and include early 20th century formal gardens designed by Harold Peto. The Chatham Vase is a stone sculpture commissioned as a memorial to William Pitt the Elder by his wife, Hester, Countess of Chatham. It was originally erected at their house in Burton Pynsent, in 1781, and moved to the grounds of Chevening House in 1934, where it currently resides.

The 140 ft Pynsent Column (also known as the Curry Rivel Column, Burton Pynsent Monument, Pynsent Steeple or Cider Monument) stands on Troy Hill, a spur of high ground about 700 m north-east of the house. It was designed in the 18th century by Capability Brown for William Pitt. It was restored in the 1990s by the John Paul Getty Trust and English Heritage.

Midelney Place is a Victorian architecture country house, completed in 1866. GradeII listed and privately owned, it is set in 26 acre of landscaped grounds.

Governance
The parish council has responsibility for local issues, including setting an annual precept (local rate) to cover the council's operating costs and producing annual accounts for public scrutiny. The parish council evaluates local planning applications and works with the local police, district council officers, and neighbourhood watch groups on matters of crime, security, and traffic. The parish council's role also includes initiating projects for the maintenance and repair of parish facilities, as well as consulting with the district council on the maintenance, repair, and improvement of highways, drainage, footpaths, public transport, and street cleaning. Conservation matters (including trees and listed buildings) and environmental issues are also the responsibility of the council.

Prior to April 2023 Somerset had a two-tier local government structure. The village fell within the Non-metropolitan district of South Somerset, which was formed on 1 April 1974 under the Local Government Act 1972, having previously been part of Langport Rural District. The former South Somerset district council was responsible for local planning and building control, local roads, council housing, environmental health, markets and fairs, refuse collection and recycling, cemeteries and crematoria, leisure services, parks, and tourism. The population of this electoral ward at the 2011 Census was 2,527.

Under the two-tier structure, Somerset County Council was responsible for running the largest and most expensive local services such as education, social services, libraries, main roads, public transport, policing and fire services, trading standards, waste disposal and strategic planning.

In April 2023, the structure of local government in Somerset changed and a new unitary Somerset Council was formed which incorporated the former County Council and 4 District Councils.

There is an electoral ward of the same name. The ward extends beyond Curry Rivel to include Midelney. The total ward population taken at the 2011 census was 2,527.

It is also part of the Somerton and Frome county constituency represented in the House of Commons of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It elects one Member of Parliament (MP) by the first past the post system of election, and was part of the South West England constituency of the European Parliament prior to Britain leaving the European Union in January 2020, which elected seven MEPs using the d'Hondt method of party-list proportional representation.

Religious sites
The Anglican parish Church of St Andrew dates from the 13th century and is designated as a Grade I listed building.

Education
Education for children aged 11 and under is provided at Curry Rivel Primary School.

title: Curry Rivel


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Neil Fitzmaurice

Neil Simon Fitzmaurice (born 20 August 1969) is an English actor, comedian, and writer. He is best known for his role as Jeff, the love rival of protagonist Mark Corrigan, in the Channel 4 sitcom Peep Show. He has written for a number of other sitcoms, including Peter Kay's Phoenix Nights (in which he also starred) and Benidorm.

Writing
Fitzmaurice's writing projects include That Peter Kay Thing, for which he received a British Comedy Award, and the critically acclaimed Phoenix Nights, in which he also appeared as "Ray-Von". He has also written two feature films: Going Off Big Time, in 1999, which was nominated for four BIFA awards and is part of Film Four's Best of British, and more recently Charlie Noades R.I.P.

Acting
As an actor, Fitzmaurice has appeared in Going Off Big Time (which he also wrote), played Jeff in the Channel 4 comedy series Peep Show, and starred in the prison drama series Buried. He appeared on the first episode of The Office as the applicant whom David Brent interviews for the warehouse position. He plays the same character in the sixth episode, only this time Brent is giving him a redundancy notice. Fitzmaurice has also performed alongside Paul O'Grady in the BBC comedy Eyes Down, had guest roles in the long-running police drama The Bill and on the Casualty spin-off Holby City.

In 2007, he played a lead role in the ITV drama Mobile, as an ex-telecoms worker suffering from a terminal brain tumour. From 2000 he worked on the film Charlie Noades RIP with his brother Tony. The film was in development hell due to funding not being available. Work finally began in 2007, despite the full budget not being in place. The film premiered at the Cannes Film Festival in 2009. Around the time of the premiere, Fitzmaurice returned to the stage for the first time in ten years, playing Shaun in On the Ledge at Liverpool's Royal Court Theatre.

Fitzmaurice played Les in an episode of the BBC One miniseries Moving On, "Dress to Impress", as well as the film Fifteen Minutes That Shook the World as the Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez. He starred in the hit play "One Night in Istanbul" at the Liverpool Empire and Dublin's Grand Canal Theatre.

On 16 February 2009, Fitzmaurice started presenting the Drivetime show on Radio City 96.7 in Liverpool. Due to film and television commitments, he left this position on 4 March 2011.

In 2011, Fitzmaurice starred in British school drama Waterloo Road as Dave Dowling, a parent with xenophobic and racist views. In 2011 he also starred in the fourth series of Benidorm as Lucky Kev who lived in the same caravan campsite as Madge Harvey. He later appeared in the fifth episode of the series reprising the role of Lucky Kev who works at a bar in Benidorm which Madge Harvey was interested in buying.

In 2013, he appeared in one episode of Truckers. In 2014 he starred as Dad in the BBC comedy series Hank Zipzer.

From 2011 to 2017 Fitzmaurice starred in the Sky comedy-drama Mount Pleasant, playing the part of office manager Fergus.

In 2023, it was announced Fitzmaurice would be re-joining Series 11 of Waterloo Road as history teacher Neil Guthrie. He has appeared as a series regular throughout the following three series’. It has also been confirmed he will be resuming his role in Series 14 of the show.

Personal life
Fitzmaurice was born and raised in Liverpool. He is a Liverpool FC fan and a survivor of the Hillsborough disaster, later being featured in the 2009 documentary Hillsborough Remembered.

title: Neil Fitzmaurice


text:
User talk:Viltris

Welcome
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title: User talk:Viltris


text:
Louis-François de Bausset

Louis-François de Bausset (14 December 1748 – 21 June 1824) was a French cardinal, writer and member of the Académie française.

He was Vicar-General of the Diocese of Aix and Digne before being nominated a bishop.

He was nominated Bishop of Alais (or Alès) by King Louis XVI on 23 February 1784, and received approval from Pope Pius VI on 25 June 1784. He resigned the diocese in 1801, at the request of Pope Pius VII, who had entered into the Concordat of 1801 with First Consul Napoleon Bonaparte. The Concordat called for the reorganization of the episcopate in France, and the Pope had asked all bishops, pre- and post- Revolutionary, to resign in order to allow him a free hand.

He was born in Pondicherry, and died in Paris.

title: Louis-François de Bausset