text:
Talk:Amon Düül

Untitled
According to various accounts, Düül is variously a Turkish mythical figure, or a Turkish word for "moon". However, I can't find any evidence for this, nor any cites about what "Düül" actually means. Can anyone offer any enlightenment, preferably with a cite? -- Karada 07:48, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Mwaahaha well if you're Irish this is all very amusing. T'aman dieul, is a curse literally meaning Your soul to the Devil. No Turkish dudes involved. It would sound exactly like Amon Duul as the T wouldn't be heard. Do I win a prize, maybe a sticker in the shape of a golden star. --83.70.241.121 14:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

A reference to the origin of the name can be found in the (German) sleeve notes to a compilation album released on the Ohr label in the early 70s: this was either 'Ohrenschmaus' or 'Mittens ins Ohr', both of which featured tracks by Amon Duul. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.173.92.98 (talk) 16:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Soul in Irish is "anam" and not "aman", and aside from this mistake the claim Amon Düül has anything to do with Irish seems like a massive leap to me...

Seperate articles for the two different bands?
I think this could be a feasible idea... --HisSpaceResearch 01:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Amon Düül and Amon Düül II are radically different bands, both in sound and personnel. They are of course intimately related, but this is kind of like having the same article for Rage against the machine and Audioslave. Kruka 12:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Let's split it. Kaldari 17:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * To be honest I don't know enough about either band to be able to do this.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 17:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I split off Amon Düül II into a separate article. We should also probably split Amon Düül UK off as well. Please feel free to clean up the mess I've left :P Kaldari (talk) 00:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This article IS a mess, no doubt about it. It's confusing. I don't know that much about Amon Düül and its splinter groups, so I can't help that much. I was going to create a seperate article about Amon Düül UK, but decided not to do so as they don't even have a standalone AMG entry... although having said that, User:Chubbles told me that if a group, especially a non-US group, doesn't have an AMG entry, that doesn't make the group non-notable. Actually, I will create a seperate article.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 15:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea to me. Kaldari (talk) 15:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Amon Düül UK created.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 15:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Die Lösung
Got a question about Die Lösung - there's some ambiguity as to whether it's by Amon Düül UK or Amon Düül II.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 15:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Definitely looks like an Amon Düül UK rather than Amon Düül II album. Check out the line up. Kaldari (talk) 22:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Die Losung is definitely by Amon Duul UK, although it featured Weinzierl.

Hawk meets Penguin however, although attributed to AD (UK) is arguably an AD 2 album in some respects, although not in any way endorsed by the band. Dave Anderson and Weinzierl overdubbed some left-over tracks recorded by AD 2. (Source, an interview ith Weinzierl, which can be seen at http://www.thing.de/delektro/artikel/eng/ad2/ad-yeti-yogi.html) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.173.92.98 (talk) 16:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

About the name of "Amon Düül I"
AFAIK the proper name of the original band is just "Amon Düül", not "Amon Düül I". The number can be used in informal situations to avoid confusions, but I think than an encyclopedic article should use the real name of the band. In fact, I haven't seen any release under the name "Amon Düül I". When "Amon Düül II" was created, the rest of the band retained the original name and didn't add the "I". --SugarKane 00:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

 * The only time I have ever seen the name "Amon Düül I" used is on the liner notes to the UK budget, Sunset label reissue of "Phallus Dei" which is itself a lift from an essay called "White Helmet Fuzz Star" (more detail than that, I cannot say).

John Weinzierl says that there never was an Amon Duul 1. (Source http://www.furious.com/perfect/amonduulII.html )

In an interview in The Wire, Chris Karrer referred to a proto-Duul as 'Amon Duul 0'; it consisted of himself, Christian Burchard (later of Embryo) and a couple of others, and mentioned that the tapes of theat formation were still extant. I'll try to find the correct reference. During another interview, he said that the band was originally himself, Peter Leopold, Lother Meid and Rainer Bauer. (Source http://www.thing.de/delektro/artikel/eng/ad2/ad-yeti-yogi.html)

The commune Amon Duul was unnumbered: the tendency to call the original band Amon Duul 1 appears to have been started by people trying to differentiate between Amon Duul the band/commune and Amon Duul as a shorthand for Amon Duul II.

As we all seem to agree that the name of the band was just Amon Düül, I renamed all occurrences in the page, and also added a short comment at the beginning explaining that the band is sometimes referred to as Amon Düül I to avoid confusion with their former fellows. --SugarKane (talk) 01:11, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

About the name of "Amon Düül I" (2)
When I asked an Irani friend in college about the name Amon Duul, he (rather embarrassed) said that "duul" was a slang word for penis. This makes some sense in that the band name is essentially the same as that of the first album.

What?????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.194.57.242 (talk) 10:07, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

what would improve this page
are photos of either band. there have to be some which are public domain... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.213.237 (talk) 03:04, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we remove all the fuzzy POV nonsense from this page?
What is a sentence like "Such a loose methodology was unavoidably hit or miss and led to frequent disruptive personnel changes." doing here on Wikipedia? The article is full of this sort of wild postulation, which is fine on the German wiki but has no place on the English wiki. Back these claims up with citations please, or else they all have to go!

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011
Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the Allmusic template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links: --CactusBot (talk) 10:49, 2 January 2011 (UTC) ✅--Cactus26 (talk) 10:58, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=B1c8j1vsjzzza

Origin of Düül
"Düül has been cited as a character from Turkish fiction. Düül has been cited as a character from Turkish fiction. "

I deleted this, on the Allmusic pages I've found nothing similar, probably this is a fake resourcing, or the Allmusic text changed since the time of resourcing. As I know, however, Düül means "Moon" in türkish, at least the german Wikipedia writes that. Gubbubu 11:13, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I asked some people on Huwiki here and they cited some other sources. It seems to me the deleted sentence has no basis at all, the word is not turkish but persian, uygur, kirgiz or what, and means no moon, but drum. But no sources available are fullíy reliable, unfortunately. So this question is opened yet. Gubbubu 14:05, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

With thanks to User:Malatinszky who found a resource, I corrected this part. Gubbubu 18:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

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Photo
The photo currently in the infobox is of Amon Düül II. If there are no freely available photos of the original commune or the so-called Amon Düül I, the current picture should at least be labeled more clearly. Jah77 (talk) 16:20, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
 * In fact, it might be a good idea to move the photo to the Amon Düül II article, which currently doesn't have a photo at all, but I have no experience with pictures on Wikipedia. Jah77 (talk) 16:24, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Chris Karrer
The Chris Karrer article says he was a founding member of Amon Düül and also refers to that band’s discography as part of his. But this article does not mention him as a band member etc. Boscaswell   talk  12:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The Chris Karrer article is mistaken. Karrer was a founding member of the original Amon Düül commune, but the recordings were made after Amon Düül II had split off from it. I recall reading an interview where Karrer explicitly denied any involvement with the albums released under the moniker of Amon Düül (without a numeral). Jah77 (talk) 09:34, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Amon Düül


text:
Archibald Douglas, 8th Marquess of Queensberry

Archibald William Douglas, 8th Marquess of Queensberry PC (18 April 1818 – 6 August 1858), styled Viscount Drumlanrig between 1837 and 1856, was a British Conservative Party politician. He notably served as Comptroller of the Household between 1853 and 1856.

Background
Douglas was the son of John Douglas, 7th Marquess of Queensberry, by Sarah Douglas, daughter of Major James Sholto Douglas. He became known by the courtesy title Viscount Drumlanrig when his father succeeded to the marquessate of Queensberry in 1837.

Cricket
He played first-class cricket for the Marylebone Cricket Club in 1841.

Political career
Lord Drumlanrig was returned to parliament for Dumfriesshire in 1847. In early 1853 he was sworn of the Privy Council and appointed Comptroller of the Household under Lord Aberdeen, a post he held until 1856, during the last year under the premiership of Lord Palmerston. In 1856 he also succeeded his father in the marquessate. However, as this was a Scottish peerage, it did not entitle him to a seat in the House of Lords. He stood down from the House of Commons in early 1857. Apart from his political career he was also Lord-Lieutenant of Dumfriesshire from 1850 to 1858.

Family
Lord Queensberry married Caroline Margaret Clayton (1821–1904), daughter of General Sir William Clayton, 5th Baronet, at Gretna Green, Scotland, in 1840. They had six children:

 * Lady Gertrude Georgina Douglas (died 1893), a writer, who married Thomas Stock.
 * John Sholto Douglas, 9th Marquess of Queensberry (1844–1900), the man behind the Marquess of Queensberry rules that formed the basis of modern boxing, and, much later, the downfall of author and playwright Oscar Wilde.
 * Lord Francis William Bouverie Douglas (1847–1865), beaten by A. W. Moore and party by a day to first ascent of the Ober Gabelhorn, killed a week later in the first successful ascent of the Matterhorn.
 * Reverend Lord Archibald Edward Douglas (1850–1938).
 * Lady Florence Caroline Douglas (1855–1905) (twin), war correspondent, travel writer, and feminist.
 * Lord James Edward Sholto Douglas (1855–1891) (twin), married racehorse breeder Martha Lucy Hennessy in 1888. James committed suicide in 1891 by cutting his throat with a razor in a London hotel.

Death
Lord Queensberry died while hunting in August 1858 aged forty, officially from the explosion of his gun. However, the event was widely believed to be a suicide. The Marchioness of Queensberry died in February 1904. He is buried in the family burial ground at Gooley Hill, near Kinmount House.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text: Talk:The Fast Lady

title: Talk:The Fast Lady


text:
Robert Tudawali

Robert Tudawali (1929 – 26 July 1967), also known as Bobby Wilson and Bob Wilson, was an Australian actor and Indigenous activist. He is known for his leading role in the 1955 Australian film Jedda, which made him the first Indigenous Australian film star, and also his position as Vice-President of the Northern Territory Council for Aboriginal Rights.

The Tudawali Indigenous Film and Television Awards (Tudawali Awards) continue to recognise outstanding achievements of Indigenous people in the Australian film industry.

Early life
Tudawali was born and raised on Melville Island in the Northern Territory to Tiwi parents.

Although he had only a basic education in Kahlin Compound and Half Caste Home in Darwin, Tudawali gained a rich English vocabulary. He was a leading Australian rules footballer as a youth, and he alternated several times between Aboriginal and white society. He used the name Bobby Wilson in Darwin when he travelled there by canoe in the late 1930s, using the surname of his father's employer. He was an orderly with the Royal Australian Air Force, worked briefly in an army store and mechanical workshop, and also as a waiter before becoming an actor.

Actor and activist
Tudawali became the first Indigenous Australian film star as a result of playing the lead role, Marbuck, in the 1955 Australian film Jedda. In 1958 he played the role of Emu Foot in Dust in the Sun, a mystery film adapted from the novel Justin Bayard by Jon Cleary and produced by the team of Lee Robinson and Chips Rafferty.

Under the name Bobby Wilson, he took part in various episodes of the 1960 TV series Whiplash, and featured in the ABC television play Burst of Summer in 1961. It has been argued Tudawali's role in the latter was closest to his real personality.

Tudawali served as Vice-President of the Northern Territory Council for Aboriginal Rights in 1966 and, working with activist Dexter Daniels, trade unionist and activist Brian Manning and author Frank Hardy, fought to highlight the poor wages and conditions of Aboriginal stockmen in the Northern Territory, which culminated in the Wave Hill walk-off in 1966. Tudawali had organised to give a series of talks to unionists throughout Australia in support of the stockmen when the Northern Territory administration banned any travel by Tudawali due to the tuberculosis he was suffering at the time.

Personal and later life
Tudawali was married to Peggy Wogait in 1948 and they lived at the Bagot Aboriginal Reserve (where all of the residents of Kahlin had been moved in 1938 ); later he married a woman named Nancy.

He died of tuberculosis and severe burns at Darwin Hospital on 26 July 1967, following an incident at Bagot; an argument had broken out when he refused to offer his 11-year-old daughter Christine for marriage.

His funeral took place at Nightcliff, Northern Territory.

Filmography

 * Jedda (1955) as Marbuck
 * Dust in the Sun (1955) as Emu Foot
 * Whiplash (1959–1960, Seven Network, TV series) as Kuanspa / Kuraba / Mundaru / Kogarah / Dalgowlie / Native Boy / Roonga (final appearance)
 * TV adaptation of the play Burst of Summer (1961, ABC Television), by Oriel Gray, based on the story of Ngarla Kunoth, who played the lead role in Jedda. Tudawali was flown from Darwin to Melbourne to make this first appearance in a live television drama. as Don Reynolds

Legacy
In 1987, Steve Jodrell directed Tudawali, a made-for-television docu-drama about the man, with Ernie Dingo in the title role.

In about 1993, the Media Resource Centre announced a new award for Indigenous film-making, called the Tudawali Award.

Tudawali Awards

 * Indigenous filmmakers honoured in awards night (Sydney Morning Herald, 21 May 2001)
 * Screen Australia’s Indigenous Department celebrates 25 years (4 June 2018)
 * Tudawali Awards and "Solid" (ABC Radio, Awaye, 11 February 2000)

title: Robert Tudawali


text:
Talk:NEdit

(random heading)
When the category "Free Linux Software" was deleted this page was automatically removed from it, fair enough. But why didn't the bot add it to the category "Free Software" when it wasn't there? This is kind of important for Nedit, because it was under a restrictive licence many years ago, and many in the linux community still believe that it is non-free.

 * Could someone explain the licensing issues? The site appears to be down. According to the man page for this Debian Nedit package, it appears to be GPLed with an exception for linking to Motif. Twinxor t 10:01, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

The development of nedit seems dead. No updates in over a year. Such a shame cause Nedit was starting to become a very nice editor.
 * It's not dead, please see the mailing list, all activity is there: http://www.nedit.org/pipermail/develop/. Hopefully we will see NEdit 5.6 soon. Enerjazzer (talk) 18:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Development continues for Nedit, quite a bit of work in the past month alone: http://www.nedit.org/pipermail/develop/2006-November/date.html
 * The domain hasn't been renewed, was due 22 October 2010. The Niki (nedit wiki) is still up though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgbreezer (talk • contribs) 15:15, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

There are trickle updates to the nedit repository, last was in April 11. They are looking for new hosting, so its not dead yet, thank goodness, as its very useful for me. Vicarage (talk) 08:20, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Is it dead now? http://www.nedit.org is abandoned! "nedit-5.5" is good enough (for the time being) but it apparently does not have a download site!

 * Stamcose (talk) 17:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

More needed
More needed here - this is an old text editor, extraordinarily very well documented, and pretty mature. It's hangable, as all old mastodon editors, and extremely adaptable to various markups and proglani. It's a pity it can only handle 8bit characters (non-wide) AFAIK. I'll add this to my watch list in order to improve. Said: Rursus (☻) 10:36, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Additional Information
Nedit has their own wiki for additional information. http://nedit.hackvalue.nl/niki/index.php/Main_Page

One of the nicer parts is: Customising Nedit: http://nedit.hackvalue.nl/niki/index.php/Customizing_NEdit

Improving the look of Motif on Nedit: http://nedit.hackvalue.nl/niki/index.php/Look_Tuning

Perhaps this editor may no longer be hangable; or time to the gallows is in the process of being appealed (stay of execution, literally). Any word from the Governor? No cracks about vi/vim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.7.187 (talk) 01:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Change development status.
How is a project that had a release 3 months ago "inactive"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.233.212.35 (talk) 17:54, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

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Forks
Original NEdit is still maintained at https://sourceforge.net/p/nedit/

There are also forks:

 * XNEdit supports anti-aliased fonts and character encodings beyond Latin-1, including UTF-8.

 * NEdit-ng is a port to C++ and the Qt GUI framework.

HenningThielemann (talk) 18:44, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Why is nedit-ng not mentioned in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.114.153.144 (talk) 21:21, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:NEdit


text:
Sara-Marie Fedele

Sara-Marie Fedele (born 18 August 1978) is a former Australian television reality show contestant, on Big Brother Australia 2001, who gained fame as being one of the loudest and most flamboyant housemates. She is also a plus-size model.

Big Brother
On Big Brother, Fedele became known for the "bum dance" she performed while in the House, as well as for her bunny ears headband and chubby physique. She was evicted on 15 July 2001, after making it to the final 3, and finished her stay in the house in 3rd place. She had been eligible for eviction six previous times.

Post-Big Brother
Fedele released a humour book, a CD single (a cover of "I'm So Excited", titled "I'm So Excited (The Bum Dance)" – with The Sirens), and a line of sleepwear after leaving the Big Brother House. She was a housemate on Australian Celebrity Big Brother in 2002, and later a presenter on children's television series, Totally Wild. Her celebrity subsequently cooled and she took a retail job in Sydney. She was a contestant in series two of Dancing with the Stars in early 2005. It was at this point that her dramatic weight loss became widely known. She also appeared in television advertisements in 2005. Soon after, she underwent breast lift surgery because of excessive sagging, probably due to her weight loss. The surgery apparently cost $14,050 and was featured in the TV series Body Work.

On the Big Brother website, during the sixth season, there was a poll asking Big Brother fans who their favourite Big Brother Housemate of all time was. Fedele came first.

Fedele also made an appearance on John Safran vs God, where she was featured in a focus group to do with the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.

In 2006, she appeared on an episode of Australia's Celebrity Survivor as a friend of contestant Imogen Bailey, who had been a fellow contestant of Fedele's on the first series of Celebrity Big Brother.

In 2008, she appeared as a panelist on Big Mouth, Big Brother's weekly panel show.

After working in retail and childcare, Fedele became a plus-sized model for BGM in Sydney in 2010. She returned to working in childcare and retail, before returning to her hometown of Perth, where she is currently studying to be a teacher's aide for special needs children. She gave birth to a daughter in April 2015.

title: Sara-Marie Fedele


text:
Chris Cohen (footballer)

Christopher David Cohen (born 5 March 1987) is an English former professional footballer who is currently assistant head coach of Stoke City.

Primarily a midfielder, he was able to operate equally in the centre or on the left, but was also employed at times as a left-back. During his time at Nottingham Forest, Cohen was known for his energetic and hard-working style of play and the consistency of his performances which won him multiple player of the season awards.

Cohen started his career with West Ham United in 2003. He joined Yeovil Town on loan from 2005 until 2006 and signed for the club permanently later in 2006, before moving to Nottingham Forest in summer 2007.

Early years
Born in Norwich, Norfolk, Cohen went to William Edwards School and Sports College, Stifford Clays, Grays, Essex where he played alongside Max Porter in the school football team.

West Ham United
Cohen was a product of the West Ham United youth system and he was scouted whilst playing for an amateur football club at the age of six. Cohen made his first breakthrough into the West Ham first team during the 2003–04 season. He made his debut as a 16-year-old, coming on as a substitute in West Ham's 3–2 win over Sunderland on 13 December 2003, which made him the youngest player to appear for the West Ham first-team for 80 years. He featured another six times that season and went on to make 14 league and cup appearances the following season.

Yeovil Town
As West Ham returned to the Premier League for the start of the 2005–06 season, Cohen found his first team chances limited. After a single League Cup appearance for the club in September, he joined League One side Yeovil Town on a one-month loan in November 2005. The deal was extended until the end of the season during the January transfer window. Cohen finished the season with 31 appearances and one goal for Yeovil. Cohen joined the club on a permanent basis on a two-year contract on 28 June 2006. Following Yeovil's exit from the FA Cup against Rushden and Diamonds, manager Russell Slade exempted Cohen from criticism, praising his performance. Slade said he would do everything in his power to keep Cohen at Yeovil, saying the club had received a bid from Nottingham Forest in January 2007. At the end of the 2006–07 season, he won two Player of the Year Awards from Yeovil Town. He made 81 league and cup appearances for Yeovil, scoring eight goals.

Nottingham Forest
In a combined £1.2 million deal with Yeovil teammate Arron Davies, Cohen moved to League One side Nottingham Forest on 6 July 2007, signing a four-year contract. He missed the start of the 2007–08 season due to injury but recovered and started in Forest's 2–0 win at Port Vale in October. He performed very well and contributed significantly to the opening goal and was praised by manager Colin Calderwood afterwards. He then hit a rich vein of form by helping Forest achieve an eight-game unbeaten run to put them into second spot in the league at Christmas 2007, including an influential display in the 3–0 win at Cheltenham Town. He finally got his first goal for the club, equalising just three minutes after coming off the bench in Forest's 2–1 victory over Huddersfield Town. Cohen was a virtual ever-present for Forest in his first season for the club, only missing the first five league games of the season, and helped the club gain automatic promotion to the Championship as League One runners-up.

In the 2008–09 season, Cohen continued to impress with consistent displays, and was picked out for praise by visiting Charlton manager Alan Pardew after a 0–0 draw, as being the best player on the pitch. He was voted Player of the Season at the end of the 2008–09 season. Manager Billy Davies said of Cohen, "He's a player with a wonderful attitude, can play in several positions, has tremendous energy and has got outstanding ability". In May 2009, Cohen was rewarded with a new four-year contract until 2013. In the first leg of the 2009–10 Championship play-off semi-final against Blackpool on 8 May 2010, Cohen put Forest ahead with a curling outside-foot volley at Bloomfield Road. Cohen was controversially sent off in an away fixture against Leeds United on 2 April 2011, following his challenge on George McCartney. Forest appealed against the decision, however the decision made by referee Mark Halsey was upheld.

In an East Midlands derby match between Nottingham Forest and Derby County, Cohen suffered damage to his knee ligament. Scans suggested he would be out for a year. Cohen made his first start for Nottingham Forest since that horrific injury in the League Cup match on 28 August 2012. On 30 September, Cohen made his league return for Forest against Derby County. Cohen signed a new contract with Forest on 8 October, keeping him at the club until 2016. After signing, he stated that he plans on making over 500 appearances for the club.

Cohen was voted Player of the Season in the 2012–13 season by the Forest supporters. On the back of his performances and longevity with Nottingham Forest, the 26-year-old midfielder was made the club captain on 31 July 2013, succeeding Danny Collins. He made an immediate impact as captain, as he was an important part in Forest's first goal of the 2013–14 season, making a great run to the byline and pulling it back for Henri Lansbury to score against Huddersfield. Cohen was to suffer another lengthy spell out with injury, following a 1–1 draw with Burnley at the City Ground on 23 November 2013. Cohen limped off late in the game and it was subsequently confirmed that he had suffered cruciate ligament damage, which ruled him out for the rest of the season.

On 11 July 2014, then-Forest manager Stuart Pearce confirmed that Cohen would remain as captain under his management, stating that he was "everything you would want as a captain". Cohen started Forest's first six league games of the season under Pearce, but was taken off with an injury fifteen minutes into a league game against local rivals Derby County on 14 September 2014. Following assessment of the injury, Cohen was ruled out for nine months with his third serious knee injury in three years.

Having missed fifteen months of football, Cohen eventually made his return to the first team to "huge cheers" on 2 January 2016, when he replaced Jack Hobbs in the 86th minute of a 1–1 draw at Charlton Athletic. Cohen started Forest's next game at left-back; a home win in the FA Cup over Queens Park Rangers on 9 January. On 17 February, he signed a one-year extension to his contract, which had been due to expire in the summer of 2016. On 7 May 2016, Cohen made his 250th league appearance for Nottingham Forest and scored the opening goal of a 2–1 win away at MK Dons.

Cohen began the 2016–17 season well under the new management of Philippe Montanier, but missed Forest's 2–0 win over Ipswich Town at Portman Road on 19 November with an injury. It was subsequently confirmed that Cohen had sustained a groin injury in training that required surgery, and would be expected to keep him out of action for three months. Cohen returned from injury to play a pivotal role in Forest retaining their Championship status in the final game of the season. With Forest one of three clubs facing relegation, and needing to better the result of Blackburn Rovers at Brentford, Cohen scored the second goal of a 3–0 win over Ipswich Town with a deflected shot on goal from 25 yards. The game marked Cohen's 300th appearance for the club in all competitions and consigned Blackburn Rovers to relegation to League One. Five days later Forest announced that Cohen had signed a one-year extension to his contract with the club.

In January 2018, Cohen was appointed joint-manager of the Under-23 team.

Cohen announced his retirement from football at the end of 2017–18 season, after struggling with injury. He played his final game for Forest, coming on as an 89th-minute substitute, on 28 April 2018.

International career
Cohen made three appearances for the England under-16 side in 2003, when he featured in the Tournoi de Montaigu. He made five appearances for the England under-17 side between 2002 and 2003, playing in the Nordic Cup.

Coaching career
In September 2020, Cohen was appointed first-team coach at Championship club Luton Town, supporting former Yeovil teammate and Luton manager Nathan Jones. In July 2022, a change to the football management structure saw him promoted to the role of assistant manager.

On 10 November 2022, Cohen departed Luton Town to take on a first-team coach role at Premier League club Southampton, following Nathan Jones in the move. Following Jones' sacking in February 2023, the shortest non-caretaker manager spell in Southampton's history, Cohen departed the club.

In November 2023, Cohen joined League One side Lincoln City to assist Interim Head Coach Tom Shaw. His short term contract expired when the club appointed Michael Skubala as permanent Head Coach. On 13 January 2024, he returned to Lincoln in the role of assistant head coach.

On 14 June 2024, Cohen moved to Stoke City as assistant head coach to Steven Schumacher.

Honours
Nottingham Forest
 * League One runner-up: 2007–08

Individual
 * Nottingham Forest Player of the Year: 2008–09, 2012–13

title: Chris Cohen (footballer)


text:
User:Chery

The ghost image of a cherry.

title: User:Chery


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aroura

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete and redirect to Aurora. Sjakkalle (Check!)  11:29, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Aroura
Delete: Content essentially copied from khet and itrw, and same reasons for deleting as the previous score of articles on VfD from User:rktect (no need to repeat them here). -- Egil 07:53, 24 August 2005 (UTC) (talk) 08:40, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep The study of why and how the Greeks came to derive the Greek Orders of architecture from the proto Doric colonade of Hatshepsets chapel may be lost on Egil but it doesn't require a deletion to make it a good articleRktect 19:29, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * Anyone got an idea for a name which could encompass all ancient stuff derived from this hundred cubits thing? Someone, please leave User:Rktect a friendly message, telling him that spreading stuff over seperate articles and duplicating, isn't a good idea. - Mgm|
 * Answer: The proper place for bona fide material on this matter would be under the Ancient weights and measures umbrella, in this case Ancient Greek weights and measures. And don't worry, the user in question begun (and continues) his Blitzkrieg in those articles, so he certainly knows about them. My impression is that the 34 articles he has created is either an attempt to be left alone, or an attempt to exhaust his opponents. -- Egil 09:36, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

You appear to be obsessed with trying to tell me what to write about. These pages aren't just talking about measures. In the case of the page on the Aroura we are talking about the differenc e between public and private architecture, the power of landholding, feudalism, Land Tenure in the time of the Ramesides, things about which you are clueless on every level. Why not go make your own contribution and leave mine alone? Rktect 02:08, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

 * Try reading some of these articles from the perspective that what I'm collecting is the set of things which influenced the development of architectureRktect 19:29, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Delete. Gene Nygaard 13:37, 24 August 2005 (UTC) * Delete per same reasons as the other entries. Repeating material (under new title with the arguemnt the same material is related to the new title). -- < drini | ∂drini > 15:43, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy redirect to Aurora. Speedy because of criteria G4 in WP:CSD, and useful redirect for the common mispelling. -- (drini|☕) 01:39, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Speedy delete under Criteria for Speedy Deletion G4. Ken talk 03:33, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: I agree that this criterion is fullfilled, and if there is consensus, I believe it should also be applied to the following articles by the same author - they all seem to have been created for the same purpose, showing that the Egyptians et al around 3000 BC knew exactly how large the Earth was, and lets adjust facts and history to accomodate that:

 * It is probably not a good idea to delete articles because of speculation and opinion which is often wrong. Rktect 10:28, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

 * It really isn't about the fact that ancient civilizations from Mesopotamia and Egypt to Greece and Rome knew the size of the earth or for that matter that it wasn't flat. Its about the fact that they shared what they knew. That applies to boatbuilding, the construction of an arch, ideas about natural philosophy, the uses of unit fractions, agriculture, written laws and the form of contracts, architecture, canons of proportion, and how to make beer.Rktect 01:03, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

 * Mille PassusThe relation of the Roman Mile and stadia to geography and navigation results in there being Roman milestones all the way down the mountains along the east coast of the Erythrian sea from Abha to Khamis Mushat.
 * Mille passusComments by Herodotus, Aristotle Marinus, Ptolomy, Posidenus, Eratosthenes
 * MilliareThe Roman Mile and where it came from
 * Pous A discussion of the Greek orders of Architecture
 * Eratosthenes stadia Examination of which stadia Eratosthenes was using
 * Sos A discussion of the origion of standards of measure as definitions of property

and how the control of the water to irrigate the fields led to control of the land
 * Myle A discussion of Arnolds Customs references to a pre statute Myle of 8 furlongs
 * Milion Did the Greeks have a Mile? How was it defined
 * Khet A discussion of Measures used to find a formula for PI in the Rhind papyrus
 * Pes A discussion of how the Romans architecture came from the Greeks while their measures came from Egypt
 * Rope stretchers Ways in which surveyors were able to restablish boundaries after the innundation
 * Passus Vitruvious on Roman architecture
 * Some are already on Vfd, but not all. For a list of all past and present VfDs by this author, go here. -- Egil 10:18, 26 August 2005 (UTC

 * Egil has the belief that any discussion of measurements is pseudoscience, original research, pyramidiocy and weird. As an architect I work with measures every day and have a different perspective in that I find them interesting and sometimes pleasing when well proportioned so I study them. It would be nice if people would read the pages make comments on the discussion pages and work with me instead of against me. Rktect 19:29, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

a dozen or so
 * Redirect → Aurora and give template (R from misspelling). --Mysidia (talk) 02:22, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Misspelling? An Aroura is what the Greeks called the Egyptian 3kr or acre with side of 1 khet known as a st3t. An Aurora is an electromagnetic effect of photons passing through an electric field near the earths poles.Rktect 17:29, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
 * As I go through and look at the pages I'm working on I rarely find one that hasn't been tagged, then reverted and had images, content and references removed to give the impression that all are all about measures only, when they are definitely not. That sort of thing is just plain slimy and should not be encouraged by people voting for deletion without checking out the history. Egil claims I have created 34 articles since August 5. If thats true and all that remain are a dozen or so then it might be interesting to see what his contributions have been recently.Rktect 03:00, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

NOTE: In the above, User:Rktect has sprinkled his edits all over the place, so it is now not easy to see who said what. I see that my last comment is now misrepresented. (Please don't ask me to clean it up, I really have spent far too much of my Wiki time cleaning up after this user). -- Egil 11:40, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

 * You have spent too much time attempting to destroy things you don't understand. I wouldn't object so much if you attempted to understand, asked questions and got answers, but your asumptions, speculations and opinions are so consistently wrong its getting ridiculous.Rktect 17:29, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete and redirect to Ancient weights and measures. --Carnildo 03:48, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aroura


text:
The Fall of '55

The Fall of '55 (2006) is a Documentary film about the Boise homosexuality scandal, a witch-hunt targeted at homosexuals in 1955 that resulted in a number of arrests and prison terms ranging anywhere from six months to life in prison.

The scandal began October 31, 1955 when a number of prominent Boise men were persecuted for alleged homosexual acts. The film covers the same subject matter as John Gerassi's book The Boys of Boise (1966), although Seth Randal, the film's writer, director, and producer, says he completed five years of independent research on the topic.

Some accounts of the incident claim that nearly 1,000 boys were seduced by a "ring" of men. A 1955 TIME magazine article said "Boiseans were shocked to learn that their city had sheltered a widespread homosexual underworld that involved some of Boise's most prominent men and had preyed on hundreds of teen-age boys for the past decade".

The film is narrated by former Boise television anchor Claudia Weathermon. The film premiered on 10 June 2006 at Newfest in New York City, at the Idaho International Film Festival at Boise's Egyptian Theater on 30 September 2006, and at the Spokane International Film Festival on 4 February 2007.

title: The Fall of '55


text:
User talk:DouglasT

Headline text
Torres Strait Region Bold textQueensland Australia

The Torres Strait region of north eastern Australia is a beautiful stretch of usually clear waters in aqua colours dotted with islands of breathtaking variety and beauty.

title: User talk:DouglasT


text:
User talk:Zoe k

Hello! Welcome to Wikipedia, I hope you enjoy your stay here! From one Zoe to another. :) Zoe 07:57, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

Singlish
Hi Zoe,

I'm sorry about the tardy reply, mainly because I'm taking a (rather long) break from Wikipedia right now.

About your questions: unfortunately, I can't locate the books that I used to write the article. However, I'll try to find them in my school library as soon as I get back to school, which is happening next week. So I'll get back to you then. Hopefully that isn't too late for you =(. If you need more urgent help, feel free to leave a message on my talk page.

As for the bibliography: I was new to Wikipedia back then, so I wasn't really very particular about references back then. Citing sources has always been rather patchy on Wikipedia, even though everyone's now making an effort to improve the situation (I hope =/ ). I'll add the references to the Singlish article as soon as possible.

And finally, the page you created by mistake: I think we can just leave it. It's not that big of a problem since it's blank anyways.

I hope you haven't missed any deadlines yet.... if you need any help, feel free to ask me! =)

-- ran (talk) 15:08, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Zoe k


text:
Saint-Coulomb

Saint-Coulomb (Sant-Kouloum) is a commune in the Ille-et-Vilaine department in Brittany in northwestern France.

Population
Inhabitants are called colombanais in French.

History
Its name comes from Saint Colomban, who came in the years 580 - 590. Accompanied by several monks, he crossed the English Channel and landed either on the Du Guesclin beach or a few hundreds meters further to the west.

Beaches
This commune has several beaches, very frequented by tourists in summer.

Malouinières
The Malouinières are historic buildings built between 1650 and 1730 within 12 km of Saint Malo, by its shipbuilders who wanted to escape the congested city, while staying close enough to the centre (within two hours on horseback) to take care of their ships and their cargos.

Neighboring communes

 * Saint-Malo, to the west
 * Cancale, to the east
 * Saint-Méloir-des-Ondes, to the south
 * North is the sea

References in popular culture
Saint-Coulomb is the location for Claude Chabrol's 1995 thriller La Cérémonie

title: Saint-Coulomb


text:
T. Raumschmiere

Marco Haas (born 1975) is a punk techno DJ known by the stage name T.Raumschmiere. He has released two albums of aggressive electropop and has worked with Miss Kittin and Ellen Allien, and helped found the Shitkatapult record label. He is also partly responsible for the mid-2000s resurgence of the schaffel beat.

Career
In the early 1990s, Marco was the drummer for a hardcore punk group called Zorn, who performed more than 300 shows around Europe, and released two albums on Maximum Voice Records (Leipzig). In 1997, his rock band Stormbow released their debut record, the first on Shitkatapult. Marco founded this now-famous label with Marcus Stotz in Heidelberg. At the same time, Marco was also working on a project called shrubbn!!, based on noise improvisation, together with Ulli Bomans. In the same year, Marco got his solo moniker for electronic music: T.Raumschmiere. In 1998, Marco moved to Berlin. The first tracks under the name "T. Raumschmiere" were released on the compilation series Cozmick Suckers, also on Shitkatapult. Around this time, he began work on a stage project called Pop Poisoned Poetry featuring Miss Tigra, and started a monthly event called Erlösung Durch Strom (salvation through electricity).

In 2000, the first T. Raumschmiere records were released. These records gave him the title of King of Gnarz (gnarz is a German expression for the sound of a record's endless loop). The first releases were based almost completely on samples of these sounds, tuned up or down to get bass or treble. He also started drumming again, with his punk rock band Mos Eisley Rock. In 2001, Raumschmiere played more than 150 live and DJ gigs all over the world. In 2002, Shitkatapult bundled together the best of T.Raumschmiere's Greatest Gnarz Hits on the Great Rock ‘n’ Roll Swindle. A little later, the album Anti was released by Hefty Records. Marco had also been working on new songs with his band Mos Eisley Rock, a few of which have appeared on different compilations. In 2003, T.Raumschmiere was listed as Best Live Act and Shitkatapult as Best Label in several Reader Poll Top 10s. He was offered a record deal on novamute. The first single to be released was "Monstertruckdriver" with "The Game Is Not Over" (featuring Miss Kittin). The debut album, Radio Blackout, followed. In 2004, more remixes followed, including one for his American friend Quasimodo Jones. After touring continuously since 2003, T.Raumschmiere tried something new. He enlisted drummer Dirk Mielenhausen and bass player Andreas Paruschke, along with sound engineer Allert Aalders, as his stage cover band for all live concerts and started to sing. The T.Raumschmiere band toured all over Europe, playing festivals in Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain and Germany. In 2005, the brand new album Blitzkrieg Pop was released on novamute.

After a hiatus, in October 2006, T.Raumschmiere released the track "Die alte Leier" that had been produced in 1996 in Heidelberg with Alex Cortex. After the 2005 album "Blitzkrieg Pop" and the 2006 release "Random Noize Sessions, Vol. 1", T.Raumschmiere is finally releasing his next album: "I Tank U" in 2008.

In December 2009 T. Raumschmiere did the famous bottle of Held Vodka interview with proud magazine, a berlin based music, fashion and lifestyle magazine.

Name
The name T.Raumschmiere is a cut-up from the German title of the short story "The Dream Cops" by William S. Burroughs: "Die Traumschmiere".

The German title contains several different meanings:
 * TRAUM = dream, subconscious
 * RAUM = room, space, venue
 * SCHMIERE = grease, lubricant, smear, spread

Influences
T.Raumschmiere has mentioned Nine Inch Nails, Big Black, Coil, Throbbing Gristle, The Misfits, RKL, Esplendor Geometrico, Deutsch Nepal, Helmet, Shellac, Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, Biosphere, Aphex Twin, Tool, NON, Radiohead, The Jesus Lizard, Motörhead, Nomeansno, The Dillinger Escape Plan, and Unsane as inspirational.

Albums

 * 2002: Anti
 * 2002: The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle
 * 2003: Radio Blackout
 * 2005: Blitzkrieg Pop
 * 2006: Random Noize Sessions, Vol. 1
 * 2008: I Tank U
 * 2015: T.Raumschmiere
 * 2017: Heimat

Singles

 * 2003: "Monstertruckdriver"
 * 2003: "Rabaukendisko"
 * 2004: "A Million Brothers"
 * 2005: "Sick like Me"
 * 2005: "Blitzkrieg Pop"
 * 2005: "Very Loud Lullaby"
 * 2006: "Die Alte Leier"
 * 2008: "E"
 * 2008: "Animal Territory/Brenner"

title: T. Raumschmiere


text:
Talk:Welsh Highland Railway

Moving things and editing
I've moved a few sections of this article about as it did not seem to flow on first reading: hopefully no-one will mind too much! The main changes have been to move the locomotive data towards the end (it broke up the flow of the text); and to add a section on Phase 4 works which I hope can be updated as work progresses.

I've taken the opportunity to re-name various sub-sections WHR (Porthmadog) and WHR (Caernarfon) for continuity and to put them in the same order wherever they appear. I've no particular reason for putting WHR(P) above WHR(C) (see below!) other than that being the way round the majority were to start with. As a 'neutral' on the issue, I would however suggest that this is a sensible order as WHR(P) existed before WHR(C)...

The 'Route' section could do with expanding, probably on a historical basis as I have tried to give a brief outline of the route from Rhyd Ddu to Porthmadog in the 'Future' section which deals with Phase 4. Not least, the route map now causes a significant white space which needs to be got rid of, even afterswitching it to the left, which removes the conflict with the picture of Russell. vanoord 17:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Modified article some more to add information on Phases 1, 2 & 3. These mostly deal with the history of the reconstruction work, but could do with some more route information and possibly some illustrations. This might leave the "Route" section above to be used for a short-ish history of the original construction of the WHR. vanoord 19:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I've added a few pictures but I'm lacking anything from Phase 2, Phase 4 or indeed the WHR (P). No doubt one day I go out with the camera, but if anyone has anything, then it would brighten the article up somewhat. Without wishing to fan the flames too much, I suggest that the sections "Controversy and Complication", "Obstruction and Objections" and "Two Welsh Highland Railways" would benefit from some re-working and condensing. While the history of the disputes may be fresh in the minds of those involved (see below!), to me it doesn't justify that amount of space taken and I very much doubt the impartial observer will find it that interesting. If there are no objections or someone doesn,t beat me to it, I'll have a go at this in a while.

 * In the meantime, the sections on Phases 1, 2 and 3 would probably benefit from having some route description added in to complement the rebuilding history to give an overall picture of the railway as it is now. vanoord 19:00, 6 November 2006

 * Although there is now a subsite within the Festiniog Railway website dedicated to the operational WHR, may I suggest contacting either of the webmasters Ben Fisher at http://whr.bangor.ac.uk or Barrie Hughes at http://www.isengard.co.uk/

Either of these people, if asked nicely, would probably be quite willing to provide additional photographs in order to further the cause. Bens official site has very good pages describing, by phase, the route itself and its rebuilding, whilst Barries unofficial site gives an alternative view of the rebuilding. Keith 22:42, 10 February 2007

Welsh Translation
I have added what I have called the brand name (I don't think this is a very good name for it, but cannot think of a better one), as the direct translation is not the one that will be used. Rheilffordd Eryri will be used, which is Snowdon Railway (I believe, but I don't know Welsh), so I felt it important to include this. If you can think of a better way to include it, I'd be grateful.--John 08:01, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm got into a muddle trying to work it out too. Anyway, "Rheillffordd" = railway, and in Welsh the order of words is basically backwards to that in English.  "Eyri" actually means Snowdonia, not Snowdon, e.g. "Awdurdod Parc Cenedlaethol Eyri" is Snowdonia National Park (compare "Awdurdod Parc Cenedlaethol Arfordir Penfro" Pembrokeshire Coast National Park).  Note the Snowdon Mountain Railway is "Rheilffordd yr Wyddfa" which does mean "Snowdon Railway" (no mountain). Dunc|☺ 12:06, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Concerning Stations
In order to avoid conflict of description, the 1998 agreement (q.v.), between the two separate organisations working together in the restoration of the WHR, determined that where it became neccessary (during the reconstruction era) to diferentiate between the two halves of the endevour, the 'northern end' would be called WHR (Caernarfon) and the 'southern end' WHR (Porthmadog). I hope we can agree to follow the same convention. Whilst outside the said agreement, I hope we will also agree that Porthmadog railway station is not the southern terminus of WHR (Porthmadog). NoelWalley 16:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Ffestiniog Railway Category and proposed Welsh Highland Railway category
I recently created a new category for articles related to the Ffestiniog Railway. This spawned a debate about whether the category should include Welsh Highland Railway articles or whether it would make sense to create a separate Category:Welsh Highland Railway. This took place on User:Noel Walley's talk page. With permission of those taking part I have copied it here for wider discussion. I'll also link to this from the Ffestiniog Railway talk page.

One word from me: categories are a useful organizational tool on Wikipedia. I'd suggest we try to stay out of the politics of the WHR vs. FfR and concentrate on the question of what's the better organizational mechanism for Wikipedia articles. Best, Gwernol 16:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi, I see you have created Category:Ffestiniog Railway, however I am not convinced is it appropriate to include RhE in this. Surely there should be a separate Welsh Highland Railway category to cover the Porthmadog to Caernarfon activities (which then could also include the Gelert's Farm activities, and the constituent companies of the trackbed - PBSSR, Creosor Tramway, and the old WHR. It was an attempt to bring all the stations together that resulted in the Category:Heritage railway stations in Gwynedd. I know from personal experience on the ground it know this can get very messy. Pencefn 11:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually I created the category, not Noel. I have no problem with their being a separate Category:Welsh Highland Railway. However the Welsh Highland Railway article should be in both categories (as, for example, should Porthmadog) since the FfR plays a significant role in WHR history (and vice versa). Gwernol 12:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Good idea to create Category:Welsh Highland Railway. I think it would be more appropriate that Category:Heritage railway stations in Gwynedd. Yes there is an overlap due to the roles each played in their development. This would also allow issues like the Blaen Quarries to be tagged to the FR, whilst lines like the Nantlle Tramway could possible be tagged to the Welsh Highland Railway, along with Creosor, etc. An interesting selection would be where the line to the Prince of Wales Quarry above Penmorfa would go. -- Pencefn 12:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, I totally agree, though we should beware of the subtelties. Croesor is an interesting case since at least the Rhosydd quarry did indeed ship slates out via the Ffestiniog in its early days so an article on the quarry ought to be in both categories! The history of the two companies is inextricably linked right back to the earliest days. Gwernol 12:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Hello, I do appreciate and understand these various views. However, the fact is that the WHR, its track and stock and all its stations are owned by the Ffestiniog Railway Company and are managed by the FR. No train moves on the operational Welsh Highland Railway without explicit permission from the duty train controller at Porthmadog Harbour station who also controls all train movements on the FR. Many of the train operating volunteers working on the Ffestiniog Railway also work on the Welsh Highland Railway (having correctly learnt both routes) and in many cases allow the management to decide, on a day to day basis, which railway they will work on. At the time the WHR was formed in 1921, it and its constituent companies together with the FR were under a common majority ownership and that continued until after the WHR was closed in 1937. When the original WHR was opened in 1923, the first through trains from each end were hauled by FR locomotives.

 * The two railways have always been linked by ownership and management. There is a precedent for linking the two together symbolically. It is the existing coat of arms comprising a red dragon on a green and white ground with by a garter bearing the wording "Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland." and surmounted by the Prince of Wales feathers. I propose a single category: Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland. Regards NoelWalley 13:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Here's why I like the idea of two categories, for historical and organizational reasons.
 * While its true that the FfR and WHR are closely tied, its also true that the WHR was once a separate entity and even today the WHR(P) continues to exist as a separate but co-operating group to the FfR. Wikipedia needs to cover history as well as the present. The WHR category would be a good umbrella to cover earlier railway activities like the NWNGR, PB&SSR, Croesor Tramway and even the Gorseddau Tramway(s). These smaller operations probably don't need their own categories and wouldn't fit within the scope of the FfR but do make sense to under the WHR. Categories do not need to be strictly separate, so articles can exist within multiple categories. As I mentioned, Porthmadog would be under both categories, as would both railway articles. Best, Gwernol 13:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I must now declare an interest. I am one of those volunteers that works on both lines (I am a Guard and a Controller). I can however indicate a preference, and the FR Management has stated that no-one will be forced to work on one line or the other when they do not want to. There is then the case of ensuring that those who volunteer at Gelert's Farm do not feel alienated. In fact once the Trawth Mawr extension of WHR(P) is open, the FR controller will have to allow access onto the line at the beginning of the day. There are however a sizeable minority on both lines who have no interest in the other and feel that the distinct identities should be retained.

 * Enough of the politics, given that the FR was built primarily as a slate railway, and the WHR as a tourist/general freight line (the only sizable slate traffic appears to have been from Glan-y-afon and Creosor) I believe that two separate categories are appropriate to recoginse the two different heritages - yes I know the FR Heritage Group is very incestious in the this respect(I contribute to that).

 * Rhosydd is an interesting case - I was walking up there last Monday whilst seeking out the link between Cwmorthim and Creosor (of which more another time).

 * Indeed, the Croesor Tramway was used to get slate out of Rhosydd as well as Croesor, two of the larger mines in the industry after the 'central' Blaenau ones. This used the largest single-pitch incline in the Welsh slate industry, at the head of Cwm Croesor. Somewhat off-topic, though... vanoord 17:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

 * In conclusion, I think two categories - one for Welsh Highland and the other for Ffestiniog - are in order, and the other category Category:Heritage railway stations in Gwynedd I created a few days ago should be removed.

 * -- Pencefn 14:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

My personal preference remains to have separate categories for the WHR and FfR because there are articles that should be in one and not the other. What are everyone else's thoughts? Can we reach consensus? Gwernol 16:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Absent further discussion, I have gone ahead and created Category:Welsh Highland Railway and started tagging appropriate articles into that category. Thanks, Gwernol 20:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Stations
These could do with rearanging into a more logical order, fitting in with the route of the railway, ie Norh to South --82.68.6.202 23:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Where are they not listed in this order? They are in that order in the article, unless I've missed something. There are quite a few articles, so I probably haven't spotted the place you mean. Thanks, Gwernol 00:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I think the query is refering to Welsh_Highland_Railway. Traeth Mawr is not listed, and when them stations from WHR(P) and WHR(C) are combined they do not following in order. == Stewart 00:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Overall Veracity of Information
There has been comment on the railway's e-group, from senior people involved in the reconstruction/management of the railway, regarding the entries on here.

Whilst coming from either side of the operation, they both express the same concern, and obviously appreciate it as a problem neither they or we can resolve.

The problem they refer to is simply (in the third person)

The north guy reckons its been written by a southern person. The south guy reckons its written by a north person. Must state there is no animosity in any comment.

Does this mean we have it impartially dead right, or we have a major problem????

I have suggested we put a rider in somewhere and my own first wording was to the effect:

"No definitive story can be written for another hundred years as with three different groups whos consistency has changed over the 50 years it has taken for a dream to become reality and many have written their personalized versions, dependant on which group at which time" (three groups = FR / WHR / Councils)

Comments please

--Keith 23:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I too feel this to be a real problem. Too many anonymous contributions, which fall into three groups:

 * vandal,
 * disruptive and
 * apparent authoritative (seems to know about it but appears not to have edited on wiki before).

 * The latter is the real problem. I have just edited the bit about Dinas station building. The earlier version said too little and gave a false impression that the WHHG had done more than it had.  Recent anon gives the impression that all they did was provide historical info and that WHLR did the rest, which was far from the case. The work was done in 1998/99 and I have spent some time this morning searching WH Heritage Journals and Snowdon Ranger Magazines over several years (I belong to both bodies). The former describes the situation in some detail, the latter makes no significant mention until it comes to the presentation of the award in 2001 by Ian Allan when it even includes a group photo taken by Dave Allan of WHHG. I hope my re-write of that paragraph is neutral and fair to all parties.  What is clear is that there was, and indeed usually is, generosity and good will on all sides, which does not always show through in what we write.

 * With regard to wikipedia editing, while anyone may edit, it is considered bad form, indeed against the spirit of the venture, to edit with more than one name or pseudonym or anon source. NoelWalley 12:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

e-group post from Mike Schumann

 * Noel, I hold my hands up - didn't realise I wasn't logged in - I edited the Dinas building bit in response to comments ongoing on egroup. Not withstanding your above comments may I refer to this comment from an e-group post from Mike Schumann, and personal email from him, referring to wiki in general, and specifically this page

"" Take for instance this WHR revival story. In it the author claims that the WHR Heritage Group were responsible for the restoration of Dinas Station building. This is not exactly correct. The restoration of this building was undertaken by WHLR using WHLR funding. Approx half of this came from grant giving bodies and the other half from private donors, of which at the time i was the major contributor. Over £20,000 was spent re-roofing the building, repairing the external walls and windows, sorting out the services and re-plastering where needed. I also paid separately to have the round slate ridges fitted and they were by no means cheap. (I doubt that any other building will be restored with this feature) The WHHG Group made a very valuable contribution in sourcing old photos and helping determine to what state the building should be restored (Its external appearance changed several times in its life), supplying the cast iron guttering and downpipes and fitting out the public waiting room. So overall it was in fact a combined operation between WHLR and the WHR Heritage Group and both should be given credit. "" and in private email ""So i would expect something along the lines that it was restored by WHLR Ltd, as part of the project to build the railway from Caernarfon to Dinas, with support from the WHR Heritage Group and private sponsors to ensure replication of historic detail.""

Now, I will not put down the contribution of WHHG, of which I am also a member, and admit I have to some extent done that by accident. Hopefully the way I am leaving it momentarily will be acceptable to all (!??!)   Additional PS (after looking again) - okay Noel, I couldn't have done much better than the way you have worded it now, so no change from me! --Keith 15:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Oh dear, sorry Keith! Well yes, and its a very great pity that these things happen, but in terms of citeable material with regard to the restoration of this little building at Dinas all that I have been able to find is in the WHHG Newsletter. There is the rub, personal knowledge is inadmissible, the facts must have been published and preferably not just in a house magazine like the WHHG Newsletter or 'Snowdon Ranger'.  I certainly did not come across mention anywhere of the finances (£20,000 or otherwise) including £10,000 donations although It did mention Mike Schumann's very generous gift of the ridge slates and of course the WHHG's guttering and waiting room panelling etc. If anyone has access to alternative published material regarding this particular restoration, I would be happy to see it incorporated and cited.

 * However, I am very sorry, for the original paragraph is down to me, and Mike was quite right to draw attention to its onesidedness. My only defence was haste, in that I was desperately trying to move things forward from a run of acrimony to raising the article's value from something not worth tuppence to at least the price of a telephone call.

 * I most sincerely hope that there is somebody in the wings properly primed with the vital information and who can write the story of the WHR restoration as it actually happened and can give full credit to the very generous few who made it possible as well as to the very many members of this and that who also helped to make it happen.

 * Keith, with regard to your proposal for a disclaimer, I think it a very good idea and yet I suspect it would be totally misunderstood. What might also be valuable would be a version of the "which part of the WHR is which"? from Ben Fisher's website, but that also would be misunderstood. We will just have to be at our best in being objective.

 * Should anyone wish to contact me, my email address is on wikipedia and is noel@llandudno.com Sincerely,  NoelWalley 19:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Disclaimer
Okay - had discussions offlist and come up with the following as a disclaimer. Am placing here for comment first - and inviting contribs to amend within it, rather than comment on end. Suggestion position in text 2.21 and prior to the current contents of 2.2 Controversy and Complication

Keith 15:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Route Map
I have created a route map for the restored Welsh Highland Railway using the Route diagram template. I've not included any road or river crossings as I think these would make it too complicated and it doesn't have the crossing of the Cambrian Line as there isn't a symbol for that. I've used the Metro/Light Rail Symbols for the Cambrian Line as that made things easier.

--Zabdiel 12:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Good work. Not sure what to do about the old stations and branches that connected to the route that are not being opened. --Stewart 20:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I though it best to leave them off as it would probably make the map confusing. Could have a separate map showing the old route.  There's a jpg map in the article which covers the old stations - but not the old branch lines. Zabdiel 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Zabdiel, didnt know you had done this, when I started mine - which is part of more for FR, and expanded detail as well. Used the Metro/Light Rail Symbols for the line, and normal red for Cambrian (Sorry) --Keith]] 08:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I have now converted the route map to a template. --Stewart (talk)  19:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I've moved the route diagram to the stations section. Where it was it was causing 5 edit links to appear across the main article text (in firefox at least) which looked messy. Zabdiel (talk) 16:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

 * There is already a RDT for this railway at Welsh Highland Railway RDT. Has this been noticed? WT79 (speak to me | [//xtools.wmflabs.org/ec/en.wikipedia/WT79 editing patterns] | [//xtools.wmflabs.org/globalcontribs/WT79 what I been doing]) 09:36, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Map of original WHR

I've removed this from the main article as a number of the station names do not match the names given in the history on the WHR(P) webpage. It's also missing the branch to Bryngwyn & Moel Tryfan Zabdiel (talk) 16:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Split?
The article is getting rather large - would it be better to split off and create a couple of additional articles?

One called:
 * Rebuilding the Welsh Highland Railway or
 * Restoration of the Welsh Highland Railway

Containing most of the details from the following sections:

3 Restoration 3.1 Welsh Highland Railway Limited 3.2 Controversy and Complication 3.3 Obstruction and Objections 3.4 Two Welsh Highland Railways 4 Rebuilding the WHR (Caernarfon) 4.1 Phase 1: Caernarfon to Dinas 4.2 Phase 2: Dinas to Waunfawr 4.3 Phase 3: Waunfawr to Rhyd Ddu 5 The future 5.1 WHR (Porthmadog) 5.2 WHR (Caernarfon) - Phase 4: Rhyd Ddu to Porthmadog

And one called: Welsh Highland Railway rolling stock

-- Zabdiel 2 July 2007

 * The restoration section has been moved to Welsh Highland Railway Restoration by Pencefn. I've proposed on that article's talk page that more info is merged in. Zabdiel 15:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Festiniog v Ffestiniog
Re some usage of FF instead of F. It started by the link to the Ffestiniog Railways HG Wiki (!!!) - it hasnt got one. The Festiniog Railway is the name of the company, and has been for 175 years. There has been occasional usage of FF over that period, but the bulk of material and legal documentation has had a single F. (Try searching the HMSO site for single and double F versions!)

The use of the double FF, as a marketing ploy only started in the last 25 or so years, so any refs before then to FF are incorrect.

The FRS magazine did not change from single to double until issue 145, Summer 1994. Keith 22:42, 16:36, 24 October 2007.

My personal opinion, as a reader of the magazine of the FR association, is that modern-day references should be Ff, and older references as F. 31.54.205.221 (talk) 16:22, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Built By
Refs to the PBSSR and the Croesor Tramway building the line is inaccurate in any shape.

The original line was, as correctly stated, built by the North Wales Narrow Gauge Railways, and ran from Dinas through to Rhyd Ddu.

The Portmadoc, Beddgelert and South Snowdon Railway started work on extending the line, but construction was never completed. The route were modified and completed by the WHR

The Croesor Tramway had a horse drawn, goods only line that ran for part of the route, but this was rebuilt for steam train, passenger use by the WHR.

The final section in Porthmadog, known as the Junction Railway, was,I think, in part financed by the Festiniog Railway. (at least they sponsored the legislation for this)

You then get the situation in the late 20th century, wherby the Festiniog Railway has, by various fund sources, organised the building of the Caernarfon section, rebuilding the Dinas to Porthmadog section, by use of seperate subcontracted construction companies of its own. --Keith 19:21, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Fact the WHR was not built in it entirety by the NWNGR which is what you are stating, the line from Porthmadog was the Croesor Tramway first. The WHR is a combination of different railways. For someone who is "heavily into Narrow gauge" your historically inaccurate.--Pandaplodder (talk) 21:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

 * I suggest you re-read what I had written and re-read what you have written.

 * "Fact the WHR was not built in it entirety by the NWNGR which is what you are stating," is what you have said. If you read the comments above, you will realise this statement is ludicrous, as I said nothing of the sort.

 * The situation given previously in the infobox, leads one to beleieve the PBSSR and the Croesor had some part in building the WHR.  Far from it.  Both had ceased to be viable entities by the time the WHR was completed.  Please consult the PBSSR and Croesor entries on this wikipedia, for relevant evidence.   The same information can be found from usual other sources.

Keith 05:00, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I have just realised you are probably arguing (why I don't know) the point of the wording of the second line. Badly worded, but reasonably correct as it does say from Dinas to Rhyd Ddu, not to Porthmadog.  Admittedly it was not the WHR at this point, but the only part of a grand NWNG plan that was built. Keith 05:09, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Preceding/Following stations
I've started a discussion on the Tryfan Junction talk page about the Preceding station and Following station templates. How should they look for stations which are no longer open? Probably best to respond on the Tryfan Junction page - though if people feel it'd be better to have the discussion here then feel free Zabdiel (talk) 10:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've found a guide for what they are supposed to be used for on the UK Railways WikiProject. "Historical Rail" is for historical services over tracks still in use (e.g. Betws Garmon) and "Disused Rail" for stations on disused lines (e.g. Rhostryfan).  Stations such as Waunfawr will need a "Heritage Rail" section for the preserved line where it is between Plas-y-Nant and Dinas and a "Historical Rail" for the original WHR where it was between Tryfan Junction & Betws Garmon. Zabdiel (talk) 14:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It is getting wiki-pedantic, but you are right. And therefore the box on Tryfan Junction page would be i) Dinas<-Historical->Waunfawr and ii) jumnction<-disused->Rhostryfan for the Bryngwyn branch —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manstaruk (talk • contribs) 18:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * wiki-pedantic is a good word :) - I think a bit of padanticness is needed in encyclopaedias. I've done a few of the stations but there's still some which need changing. I've also not done anything with changing colours of the routes - they're all black at the moment.  Zabdiel (talk) 10:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Route
I think the stations section would be better if it were re-written into a description of the route in a similar style to the Route section of the Talyllyn article. I've started but only got as far as Waunfawr. It probably needs some work to make it read better. Zabdiel (talk) 11:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Had a think, and a look at the Talyllyn_Railway, and come to conclusion that as this line is three times the length, it isnt worth doing it. It would also duplicate the information that "should" be on the individual pages of each station.  Admnittedly there are disused branches that will not be covered, but doing what you envisage purely for these may be a good idea. --Keith 09:38, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The northern terminus of the modern WHR is at Caernarfon. From here the line runs to Bontnewydd and Dinas. This part of the line was built of the on the trackbed of the standard gauge Caernarvonshire Railway which was built in the 1860s on parts of the Nantlle tramway (a gauge horse drawn tramway.  This was opened as the first stage of the Welsh Higland Railway (Caernarfon) in 1997.

From Dinas the heritage line is built on the course of the original line. Dinas was the main engineering works of the original line, and servers the same purpose for the WHR(C). The modern line runs from Dinas to Waunfawr with no intermediate stations. However the original line has two stations on this section and a branch at Tryfan Junction. Two miles after leaving Dinas the line reached Tryfan Junction where the Bryngwyn Branch left the main line heading towards the Moel Tryfan slate quarries. There were two stations on this branch, Rhostryfan after 3/4 mile and Bryngwyn after 2 1/4 miles. Past the station was a double track incline owned by the railway which served the slate quarries.

Information Validity
Some information has been put in, that has been interpreted from incorrect information. Some of this has now been been corrected.

 * This was left by manstaruk on my talkpage .........(edited)Trident13 (talk) 21:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

As such, I have removed the remainder as it duplicated his talk page. It did not contribute to the article. It can be found in the archive if really needed --Keith 21:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Ff
This was very common centuries ago. My own name for example was spelled thus in the distant past. Rich Ffarmbrough, 14:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC).

Name of the railway
The opening sentence states that the "The Welsh Highland Railway (WHR) (Welsh: Rheilffordd Eryri / Rheilffordd Ucheldir Cymru) is a narrow gauge railway in Wales" ....

The third paragraph also states "The restored line is known as both Rheilffordd Ucheldir Cymru AND Rheilffordd Eryri in Welsh."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the name "Rheilffordd Ucheldir Cymru" used by the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway (as it says on that site, by the picture), not by this one? Hogyn Lleol (talk) 16:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You proabably have a valid point there - let me mull it over and converse with others --Keith 19:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it safe to say its a hark back to the agreement to use WHR(C) and WHR(P),titles which were due to change when the line reopened completely. In preparation for this the WHR(P) (more correctly the WHR Ltd trading name) morphed into the WHHR (sorry being a Mancunian, my welsh is non existant). The "whole" thing can be referred to by the welsh "Rheilffordd Ucheldir Cymru & Rheilffordd Eryri", although denoting different sections. It could be worded better (both in my descript here and on main page) --Keith 22:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Operations section - expansion?
Does the operations section really need the expansion tag, it seems fairly detailed? Dje84 (talk) 22:57, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of removing the tag. I've had a go at revising the first part of the operations section to try and flesh it out and add a bit more detail. It could do with a few more refs, but hopefully it's an improvement. Dje84 (talk) 00:04, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Legal Name
May I be as bold to place on record, my interpretation of the situation as it stands

1) The FESTINIOG RAILWAY COMPANY is the name of the company formed in 1832 to build, own and operate the railway from Porthmadog to Blaenau Ffestiniog. This is the company that, along with Ffestiniog Railway Holdings Limited and the Festiniog Railway Trust obtained the 1995 Light Railway Transfer order for the WHR trackbed and railway rights.

2) The Ffestiniog Railway Co is the name of the operating arm for the railway from Porthmadog to Blaenau Ffestiniog. This name only really came into usage from the late 1980's.

3) The Welsh Highland Railway** is the name of the operating arm for the railway from Caernarfon to Porthmadog.(** I appreciate the continuing situation between the WHRL and the FR Co. over the use of the name, there is no intention to antagonise!)

I add this as some edits on the stations have named the Ffestiniog as owner and operator. I appreciate there is a large amount of overlap, but as part of the original agreements, the operation is supposedly ring fenced to some extent, in order to safeguard the original FR operations.

--Keith 18:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

My understanding is that the WHR is operated directly by the Ffestiniog Railway Company not a subsidiary company and that the phrases "Ffestiniog Railway" and "Welsh Highland Railway" were, in effect, brand names (although I believe some of the finances are ring-fenced to each railway). Indeed, the FR Co has started referring to itself as "The Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railway" in press releases.

As evidence for this, here is the opening text for the splash page at festrail.co.uk :

"This is the website of the Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Railways - two unique narrow gauge railways (both operated by the Ffestiniog Railway Company) with a fascinating past and an even more exciting future. We are currently re-instating the long-lost railway link between Caernarfon and Porthmadog. When trains start running over the completed link in 2011 you will be able to travel from Caernarfon right through to Blaenau Ffestiniog - almost 40 miles of narrow-gauge steam!"

The logo badges on both the FR & WHR sections of the site say "Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways".

For the sake of accuracy, would it not be better to say that the stations are part of the Welsh Highland Railway, which is owned and operated by the Ffestiniog Railway Company?

Also, the section on locomotives still refers to the Welsh Highland Railway (Caernarvon) - has the time come to change this to "Welsh Highland Railway" or "Welsh Highland Railway (Rheilffordd Eyri)"? Dje84 (talk) 13:13, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

 * As far as I am concerned the terms Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways; Rheilffordd Eryri; and Welsh Highland Railway are interchangeable. Legally the Ffestiniog Railway Group (my italics due to the minefield of the statutory company of 1832; holding company - Ffestiniog Railway Holdings; trust - Ffestiniog Trust; operating organisations; etc.) own and operation the line that runs south from Caernarfon towards Porthmadog. The construction company (whatever it is currently called) is also part of the FR Group of companies. I am not sure which are legal entities and which are trading names. All-in-all anything other than Ffestiniog Railway is probably a trading name or similar, however it is all part of The Group. --Stewart  ( talk |  edits ) 17:03, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Thanks for that, but I think you have both fallen into the F/Ff trap. Dje84 states he considers that WHR is a sub of Ff.  But the Ff itself is the operating name of the railway.   Contrary to Pencefn's comment, the company is still known as F. and as he is aware, it would take an act of Parliament to change this.  It is still officially called F. as shown in the Transfer order. I would stand to be corrected, but I think the shares that are held by the Trust and the FRS and others are all in the Festiniog Railway Co. I understand some use of the Ff. name was established from the 1980's onwards. As for the term Ffestiniog Railway Group, I take it this is a generic name coined (reasonably) to group all the entities together, but does not seem to appear in any other documentation.

As for the original resaon, I appreciate there is also the problem of who actually owns what! Some vehicles were transferred to FfR Heritage, some are/were on loan, and some purchased "for" the WHR, in 1993. --Keith 18:19, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Not quite Keith - Ffestiniog Holdings (two Ff) is the holding company that contains all the various companies - the Welsh Highland construction company; Ffestiniog Travel; FfR Heritage; et al. Ffestiniog Trust (and a few other minor shareholders) own both - the Holdings Co and and the 1832 company - not sure how they are linked via the Trust or Holdings is a subsidary of the 1832 Co. There is probably a "sipder's web of interconnections with the various companies which is why the easiest way to described the owner/operator either by the 1980's name (with Ff) or the more recent branding of Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways. Possibly the various connections would merit an article of its own. --Stewart  ( talk |  edits ) 10:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I dont want to carry this conversation on!!! That isnt meant nastily, but you just hit the nail on the head with your last line!! A quagmire isnt in it! LoL --Keith 11:48,  12 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Stewart's last comment sums up what I was trying to say in my first one - I didn't really do it very well! The FR's internal workings seem more convoluted than the big railway sometimes lol... Dje84 (talk) 18:13, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Trying to check further, recvd a response on my FRHG talk page --Keith 18:10, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

List of welsh highland railway (Caernarfon) rolling stock
I've started a discussion about whether the name for the above page needs to change here. I thought I would put a note here as this is the main page about the WHR. Dje84 (talk) 18:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Length of opening
The opening of the article is and always has been rather long. I think that some of the history of the original line could be taken out (some of it repeats the history section) and the rest of the text could be summarised better, while still containing the essential information (some of it probably just needs to go under a sub-heading, e.g. the last para on original welsh and modern welsh titles). I am working on a revision and I will post it here for comment before I make any major changes. The WHR is a complex and often controversial topic. I will, of course, keep it NPOV and give equal weight to both operators as needed! Leave a message here or on my talk page if you have any thoughts. Dje84 (talk) 01:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed.  I have inserted a "Background" header, and slightly reworded, which reduces it to a single paragraph. I will also move the welsh translation bit to the "Background" section, making it less cluttered. I agree there is much duplication in there, but wull leave any other for the rewrite you are doing

I have noted a few questionables, which I have amended, and hope you will agree with

a) it read "which owns and operates the majority of the line."  The company is solely responsible for operations.  The use of the word "majority" in sentence indicates there is a partner. This is not the case.  I think this might be a ref to the WHHR, in which case, it is definitely wrong.  The FR Co. (even if & when the WHHR do get running rights) will still be solely responsible.

b) it read "company went into receivership in 1927 [3], when the line was taken over by the Festiniog Railway Company on a 42-year lease. This operation was also unsuccessful and all services ceased in 1937"  This intimates FR Co. took over in 1927 as it is worded.  This is wrong.  The lease commenced 1 July 1934 and effectively ended 21 Sept 1936 - see

c) it read "The track was lifted during scrap collections in World War II." Very much a inaccurate generalisation.  Replaced with "Much of  the line was demolished ....".  Again refer to .  -- Keith 08:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I completely agree with all of those, great suggestions. I have copied the article into my userspace to do a draft to prevent causing problems with the current version, it is User:Dje84/WHR_Draft. I have added a few splits to the background section to give the WHHR & Welsh titles their own sections. I have also gone through and tried to summarise the opening section of the article even further and included information about some of the places the line passes through and that the restoration is award winning. I have also cut down the amount of history in the background section to a bare minimum to prevent duplication.

All of my edits have been done progressively, see the edit history for details. Its not perfect but it should be better than the the current version.

If no one has any huge objections, I will try to find a friendly admin who can advise on how I can merge my changes into the main article's edit history so they can go on the record.Dje84 (talk) 01:08, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

 * May have beaten you to it.    The intro is now a one liner, explaining it "WAS" a railway, that "HAS" been rebuilt and extended.   Any additions to that would be superflouous and repetitive.   The next section, which occupies exactly a full screen, gives the background to the one liner, devoid of the detail that appears elsewhere.   Note the comment on the "history 1942-1997" If you know any of this, you will understand why the comment is made there.   If you dont, and for the sake of any other readers of this talk page,  then its because the whole story would fill a book, have a "cast" of many, "cliff hanging" last minute deaths, and change of "actors" and attitudes of over a (number of generations) 55 year period.!   And that would be before you take into account any personal point of views!! --Keith 09:59, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Your background section had useful information, but after looking at it and comparing it to similar pages (including the Ffestinog, Talyllyn, Severn Valley & Snowdon mountain railway pages) I think it was better incorporated into other parts of the article, which I have done. I have formatted it similarly to the FR page, with the history of the line first and using your background to fill the gaps (the history left out that the FR leased the line!).

 * I fully take on board your comments about history - I was already aware of this and completely agree. I took out the bit you wrote in the background about the restoration history it not being described here, as I felt it wasn't needed - if anything it stated the obvious, as the restoration history is fully described on its own page, which helpfully removes the controversy from this one! I have revised the summary that was previously on the page to the bare essentials and it is not too dissimilar to what you wrote in the background. I agree with you about personal views being a problem, but then NPOV is one of the cornerstones of WP! :)

 * I have put the information about the present day line and the way the FR markets it into a new section, similar to the 'Preserved Operations' section on the FR page. (Is the WHR a preserved operation? A can of worms for another discussion/day!).

 * I have given the WHHR it's own section, as although it has a main article I thought a summary of it's activities would be a good contrast to those of the FR Co's operations. I have also put in a sub-section mentioning a few details about the 1998 agreement as it is such an important part of their relationship. Not too much detail, I am not a lawyer, just the section from the prev version about the WHHR's operations on the mainline and a new section explaining that the agreement was the reason for the former names of the 2 lines (i.e. the old WHR C and WHR P titles) and why they are no longer called that.

 * The Welsh titles section has it's own section below that, as it didn't really fit anywhere else.

 * The opening of one line I felt was a bit short - I have put in a bit more detail, some from your background and some new information (including highlights from the WHR's route), similar to that of other heritage railway pages.

 * Hopefully all of the above explains why I made such a major revision to the article's structure. I think my additions help it flow better - the FR page was a good guide for structure! It probably needs a few tweaks here and there. In general the whole article could do with more references, it would be good to try and get GA or FA status for it. Dje84 (talk) 00:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, it does look a bit "bitty"  BUT  it does give a good intro, and I am happy with the result.  There are so many facets to the history part alone, that that is probably the best way of doing it.   I do not have books to hand, but one fact query.  Was it not 1922 before all three (FR/WHR/SMR) actually came fully under the "Dalgarrog" umbrella? --Keith 05:43, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Early FR Co / WHRL Dispute Origins Sourcing

 * "The origins of the WHRL restoration efforts, tentatively began in 1961 when disagreements within the volunteers of the Festiniog Railway and a group like minded railway enthusiasts, joined to form The Welsh Highland Railway Society."

user:Manstaruk recently edited the article with the following information. I've deleted his reference and tagged it as I believe it refers to a primary source on an e-group. I have left messages on his talk page informing him of this and asking for a reliable citation Dje84 (talk) 08:42, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

user:Manstaruk duly found a relevant reference and used it! --Keith 12:09, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Removal of inaccurate paragraph
The following para was removed - resaons below

''It is fair to say that the relationship between the WHRL and FR has been less then perfect over the years. In part this comes from the way the FR handled the take over of the WHR fueling already existing resentment against the FR in the then '64 Company, but the way both entities are organised also plays an important role. The FR, as a commercial enterprise with a matching top-down organisation, has to safeguard its interests, whereas the WHRL is a democratic heritage organisation, with a structure to support this. One of the highlights in this relationship is the aformentioned 1998 Agreement, the latest low was the Spring 2010 WHRL Operations proposal, rejected by the FR on its merits, not its origins as has been suggested by individual WHRL supporters. In early summer 2010 the WHRL held its Annual General Meeting (AGM) where members elected a new Board. It is hoped this will bring a normalisation of relations with the FR, to the benefit of visitors to North Wales in general and the narrow gauge railways in particular.''

For one, The "Spring 2010 WHRL Operations proposal" never existed! Proposal were made and rejected in 2008.

Placing this whole para, as it stands wouldn't be in the best interests of anyone, especially in the post AGM period. Whilst some of the facts are not questioned, a less controversial rewrite would be more acceptable --Keith 14:31, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Colonel Stephens
The famous H. F. Stephens managed the WHR for all or part of the period from c1923 until its closure. Surely this classic British eccentric must receive a mention somewhere in this article, which is cross-referred from the article H. F. Stephens. Is anyone able to do this? If not, let me know, as I have at least one book devoted to the Colonel which should provide some short but accurate data. Flying Stag (talk) 22:05, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

One hopes the facts are right. Starting c1923 should read Jan 1925. (Engineer from April 1923) Stephens died in 1931 - the railway closed in 1937. If you wish to insert some information on him, please do so in the appropriate part. However, whilst I appreciate there may be a wealth of info from you sources, please dont overwhelm the article. --Keith 23:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Stephens is mentioned, twice, in relation to loco purchase.

Thanks Keith. My "facts" were solely from memory, broadly true but no detail checked. I will now do this, though it may be a few days. What I had in mind was something very brief and to the point. I'll publish a draft on this page for you to have a look at first Flying Stag (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Gauge
There has been discussion in several articles about the significance of differences between nominal gauges of 597, 600 and 610 millimeters. It appears this project may be one of the few contemporary instances where equipment from each of these gauges is being operated. Can someone associated with present maintenance operations provide maximum and minimum wheel gauge and rail gauge criteria now in use on this project?Thewellman (talk) 17:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 10:22, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Wrong map label
I have noticed that on the main map of the route, the labels on the Cambrian Line saying "to Aberystwyth" and "to Pwllheli" are the wrong way around. Furthermore though, the line doesn't even go the Aberystwyth; it goes to Dovey Junction and then Shrewsbury. Nathan A RF (talk) 16:20, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Unable to parse this sentence
"The origins of the WHRL restoration efforts, tentatively began in 1961 when disagreements within the volunteers of the Festiniog Railway[10] and a group of like-minded railway enthusiasts, joined to form The Welsh Highland Railway Society."

I'm not able to parse this. How can a disagreement join to form something?

I'm guessing that this might be rewritten as:

"The origins of the WHRL restoration efforts tentatively began in 1961 after disagreements within the volunteers of the Festiniog Railway[10]. Those volunteers who left the original group and a group of like-minded railway enthusiasts joined to form The Welsh Highland Railway Society."

But I have no idea whether that would be in agreement with the facts, so am posting here instead.

Thisisnotatest (talk) 02:59, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Welsh Highland Railway