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Talk:Moroii

Cite
The first line says "in folkklore" but then says a bunch of things that sound quite bizarre... Sources, please. DreamGuy 20:26, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * None of it is especially obscure information. A simple websearch on "moroii" will actually reveal quite a lot.  None of this is really that bizarre, aside from maybe the bit about the moroii coming back to life as a "regular" vampire, which I previously hadn't questioned because it seemed pretty consistent with the rest of it (now that you mention it, that particular part doesn't sound very folklore-ish; I'll try to figure out where it originated, though I suspect it may be speculation on the part of various website owners).

 * The rest of it, however, is easily verifiable -- or at least it was three years ago, when I found that same information on hundreds of different websites. A scholarly citation shouldn't be too difficult to dig up.  I'll get on it here in the next couple of days, and when that's done we can remove the disclaimer template at the top of the page. --Corvun 20:56, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * P.S. I'd also like to appologize for not citing sources to begin with. I trip up on the "common knowledge" issue sometimes in situations like this, in this case thinking "well, anyone who knows what a 'moroii' is knows this!", forgetting that the moroii themselves are not common knowledge and that people who have no idea what the heck this article is talking about are going to want to know where the information comes from.  So, that doesn't excuse it, but I hope it explains it, and I will fix it.

 * In case it needs to be highlighted, "hundreds of websites" is meaningless, as there are thousands of sites with info that's completely bogus, made up, fictional, nonsense, based upon delusions, etc. You should have real sources before making an article. DreamGuy 21:02, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * Real sources should not be at all difficult to find. You may want to tone down the hostility and the confrontational attitude.  This isn't Usenet.  --Corvun 21:11, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * You say "real sources" but keep talking about websites... You seem to be missing the point completely. And I think you should tone down your hostility, as I am only asking for something that is required of all articles here before they are created. DreamGuy 23:11, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * Update: I had a few minutes of spare time before I had to disconnect, so I just now tried using google to track down my sources.  Unfortunately as has been the case every single time I've tried using this cursed google, all I got was a couple thousand hits that seemed to all be copies of the exact same 6 pages, 3 of which weren't even in English.  But I figured I'd try using google first, since it seems to be held in high esteem here on Wikipedia.  When I come back later I'll try again using a more reliable search engine like Yahoo or Hotbot.  It shouldn't take more than a few minutes to find a few good, solid, reliable sources. --Corvun 21:31, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, if it shouldn't take more than a few minutes, why haven't you? It's pointless for you to keep posting that you say it's reliable and haven't found anything to back it up yet. Please just find reliable sources and post them. Yahoo and Hotbot are not "more reliable" than Google, by the way, and you still don't seem to quite get the idea here. DreamGuy 23:11, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * Okay dude, I've been trying to be patient with you, even bothered to post an update so you'd know I was working on it and not just blowing hot air, but this is a bunch of B.S. This whole "you didn't cite a source therefore I KNOW FOR A FACT that what's written here is untrue" is pure crap and you know it.  You also know very well that there are reliable sources of information on the internet, once you cut through all the garbage that's out there, just like any, other, medium.  Accusing other people of posting unreliable information before you know the source of said information (or assuming from the start that no such sources exist) is not assuming good faith, nor is it proper netiquette, nor would it be considered acceptable behavior in public.  You accuse me of "not getting the idea" yet you don't even seem to understand the concept of grown-up behavior.  If there are no solid, reliable sources on the web, it's only a matter of going to the library and checking out virtually any in-depth book on the subject of vampires in folklore, which will have the same information I've put here and more.  In fact, this article has the potential to be a fairly in-depth treatment on the subject.  This would take a little longer, as getting to a library isn't an easy thing to do for everyone, but until then you have your little template up there so no harm, no foul.  So go smoke a bole and chill the heck out, or take a nap, or take a pill, or something. --Corvun 01:54, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Also, personal attacks are extremely frowned upon on Wikipedia, but I'll ignore these, providing you agree to chill out. --Corvun 02:09, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

 * You are the one making personal attacks, and I suggest you knock it off. Besides doing that, I once again reiterate that you need to actually get real sources for this information. DreamGuy 00:05, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

 * This entire talk page has thus far been filled with you "reiterating" this "profound point" you think you've been making (which I agreed with you on from the very start), often reiterating it within a single posting, as if to imply some time had elapsed regardless of the fact that it hadn't. You don't need to "reiterate" anything, and this "I know you are but what am I" tactic, accusing me of making personal attacks when all of the above clearly shows I did no such thing, isn't going to fly.  Thus far I have tolerated your personal attacks, as well as some of the pettiest and most juvenile behavior I've come across in recent time, and asked nothing in return for the unreasonable amount of tolerance I've extended you but that you cool yourself down and start acting like a rational adult.  Clearly, this is beyond your ability. --Corvun 00:51, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

There is a page at Walking the Night which has some of that information, as well as a couple of sources (both "vampire encyclopedia" type books) which could come in handy. --NW 14:28, September 16, 2005 (UTC)

Moved from article
''offspring of two (undead) Vampires. As the child has not yet died, it will breathe, have a beating heart, and a human soul, but will have inherited all the strengths and powers of a vampire. Having a human soul, it will also be able to function normally in broad daylight, will have neither the need nor the desire to drink blood, and will not be threatened by either religious symbols/words or garlic. In short, the Moroii will have all the strengths of a Vampire, but none of the weaknesses. In some interpretations the Moroii will cease to age after reaching adulthood, or will age more slowly, however in most interpretations it will age like a normal human. If a Moroii is killed by means other than those that would also kill a Vampire, the Moroii's corpse (with the human soul now gone from it, having crossed over into the afterlife) will arise as a regular Vampire.

The Moroii make excellent Vampire hunters, more so even than Dhampirs.''

Putting this here until either (a) I have a chance to get to the library and get a decent reference for the material, or (b) someone else does.

Moroi
See also Moroi, the correct masculine singular and plural form (in this case, the singular and plural form is the same; however, in the feminine form, the singular and plural are different). In folklore, the distinction between a Moroi and a Strigoi was not always clear or consistent (as is often the case in actual folklore). In fiction, the distinction has become clear and consistent. These articles have to be merged. Under what title? Not sure which is more common in scholarly English sources (which is more common in a google search is irrelevant), but Moroi is the correct singular and plural form in Romanian. Alexander 007 07:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC) I expect that the spelling Moroii is more common in fiction. If so, Moroii can refer to the fictional version, Moroi to the original folklore versions. Alexander 007 08:11, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Moroii
Moroii seems to have taken hold in fiction as a plural of Moroi. If this is incorrect, I may be partly responsible, because I have heard "Strigoii" as a plural of "Strigoi" and assumed Moroii would be the plural by analogy. I advised people at White Wolf Games' website this would be the case, but I can't be sure as I speak only "phrasebook" Romanian.

title: Talk:Moroii


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Crassocephalum biafrae

Crassocephalum biafrae, also called Sierra Leone bologi or worow, is a shade tolerant perennial vine grown especially in Sierra Leone, often on trellises. Its spinach-like leaves are often eaten steamed.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Crassocephalum biafrae


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User:BridgetDS

Profile
I'm a Ph.D. student at Harvard University, focusing on phonological theory and Indo-European linguistics.

title: User:BridgetDS


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Trendelenburg's sign

Trendelenburg's sign  is found in people with weak or paralyzed abductor muscles of the hip, namely gluteus medius and gluteus minimus. It is named after the German surgeon Friedrich Trendelenburg. It is often incorrectly referenced as the Trendelenburg test which is a test for vascular insufficiency in the lower extremities.

Signs and symptoms
The Trendelenburg sign is said to be positive if, when standing on one leg (the 'stance leg'), the pelvis severely drops on the side opposite to the stance leg (the 'swing limb'). The muscle weakness is present on the side of the stance leg. If the patient compensates for this weakness by tilting their trunk/thorax to the affected side, then the pelvis will be raised, rather than dropped, on the side opposite to the stance leg. Ergo, in the same situation, the patient's hip may be dropped or raised, dependent upon whether the patient is actively compensating or not. Compensation shifts the center of gravity to the affected side, and also decreases the angle between the hip adductor muscles and femur, both of which decrease the forces needing to be applied by the hip adductor muscles to maintain relevant posture.

The gluteus medius is very important during the stance phase of the gait cycle to maintain both hips at the same level. Moreover, one leg stance accounts for about 60% of the gait cycle. Furthermore, during the stance phase of the gait cycle, there is approximately three times the body weight transmitted to the hip joint. The hip abductors' action accounts for two thirds of that body weight. A Trendelenburg sign can occur when there is presence of a muscular dysfunction (weakness of the gluteus medius or minimus) or when someone is experiencing pain.

Causes
A positive Trendelenburg's sign is caused by weakness or ineffective action of the abductor muscles of the lower limb, the gluteus medius muscle and the gluteus minimus muscle.
 * Damage to the motor nerve supply of the lateral gluteal muscles (gluteus medius muscle and gluteus minimus muscle)
 * Polio involving L5 (foot drop may also be seen because L5 innervates the tibialis anterior muscle).
 * Damage to the superior gluteal nerve.
 * Temporary or permanent weakness of the lateral glutei
 * Tendinitis.
 * Penetrating injury.
 * Infection, abscess – blood borne, post-traumatic or post-surgical.
 * Ineffective action (insufficient leverage) of the lateral glutei
 * Greater trochanteric avulsion.
 * Fracture, (or non-union) of the femoral neck.
 * Coxa Vara (the angle between the femoral neck head and shaft is less than 120 degrees).
 * Damage to the hip joint (fulcrum) - Chronic or Developmental Hip Dislocation/Dysplasia
 * Osteonecrosis.
 * Legg-Calve-Perthes disease.
 * Developmental dysplasia.
 * Chronic infection.
 * Uncorrected traumatic dislocation.

title: Trendelenburg's sign


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User talk:ColdFusion200

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

Here are some tips to help you get started:

 * To sign your posts (on talk pages, for example) use the '~' symbol. To insert just your name, type ~~~ (3 tildes), or, to insert your name and timestamp, use ~~~~ (4 tildes).
 * Try the Tutorial, and feel free to experiment in the test area.
 * If you need help, post a question at the Help Desk
 * Follow the Simplified Ruleset
 * Eventually, you might want to read the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines.
 * Remember Neutral point of view
 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Good luck!

Meelar (talk) 20:31, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:ColdFusion200


text: User talk:69.202.84.114

title: User talk:69.202.84.114


title: User:UBX/1337-2


text:
Talk:Geoff Bent

untitled
POV check: Statements such as "against all the odds" and "all the more tragic" make it sound like a funeral speech. --Atlantima 20:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Geoff Bent


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Slave market

A slave market is a place where slaves are bought and sold. These markets are a key phenomenon in the history of slavery.

Slave markets in the Ottoman Empire
In the Ottoman Empire during the mid-14th century, slaves were traded in special marketplaces called "Esir" or "Yesir" that were located in most towns and cities. It is said that Sultan Mehmed II "the Conqueror" established the first Ottoman slave market in Constantinople in the 1460s, probably where the former Byzantine slave market had stood. According to Nicolas de Nicolay, there were slaves of all ages and both sexes, they were displayed naked to be thoroughly checked by possible buyers.

In the early 18th century, the Crimean Khanate maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East, exporting about 2 million slaves from Russia and Poland-Lithuania over the period 1500–1700. Caffa (modern Feodosia) became one of the best-known and significant trading ports and slave markets.

Slave markets in the East African slave trade
In Somalia, the inhabiting Bantus are descended from Bantu groups that had settled in Southeast Africa after the initial expansion from Nigeria/Cameroon, and whose members were later captured and sold into the Arab slave trade. From 1800 to 1890, between 25,000–50,000 Bantu slaves are thought to have been sold from the slave market of Zanzibar to the Somali coast. Most of the slaves were from the Majindo, Makua, Nyasa, Yao, Zalama, Zaramo and Zigua ethnic groups of Tanzania, Mozambique and Malawi. Collectively, these Bantu groups are known as Mushunguli, which is a term taken from Mzigula, the Zigua tribe's word for "people" (the word holds multiple implied meanings including "worker", "foreigner", and "slave"). Bantu adult and children slaves (referred to collectively as jareer by their Somali masters ) were purchased in the slave market exclusively to do undesirable work on plantation grounds.

Enslaved Africans were sold in the towns of the Arab world. In 1416, al-Maqrizi told how pilgrims coming from Takrur (near the Senegal River) had brought 1,700 slaves with them to Mecca. In North Africa, the main slave markets were in Morocco, Algiers, Tripoli and Cairo. Sales were held in public places or in souks.

Potential buyers made a careful examination of the "merchandise": they checked the state of health of a person who was often standing naked with wrists bound together. In Cairo, transactions involving eunuchs and concubines happened in private houses. Prices varied according to the slave's quality. Thomas Smee, the commander of the British research ship Ternate, visited such a market in Zanzibar in 1811 and gave a detailed description: "'The show' commences about four o'clock in the afternoon. The slaves, set off to the best advantage by having their skins cleaned and burnished with cocoa-nut oil, their faces painted with red and white stripes and the hands, noses, ears and feet ornamented with a profusion of bracelets of gold and silver and jewels, are ranged in a line, commencing with the youngest, and increasing to the rear according to their size and age. At the head of this file, which is composed of all sexes and ages from 6 to 60, walks the person who owns them; behind and at each side, two or three of his domestic slaves, armed with swords and spears, serve as guard.

Thus ordered the procession begins, and passes through the market-place and the principle streets... when any of them strikes a spectator's fancy the line immediately stops, and a process of examination ensues, which, for minuteness, is unequalled in any cattle market in Europe. The intending purchaser having ascertained there is no defect in the faculties of speech, hearing, etc., that there is no disease present, next proceeds to examine the person; the mouth and the teeth are first inspected and afterwards every part of the body in succession, not even excepting the breasts, etc., of the girls, many of whom I have seen handled in the most indecent manner in the public market by their purchasers; indeed there is every reasons to believe that the slave-dealers almost universally force the young girls to submit to their lust previous to their being disposed of. From such scenes one turns away with pity and indignation."

Slave markets in Europe
Among many other European slave markets, Genoa, and Venice (center of the Genoese slave trade and the Venetian slave trade) were some well-known markets, their importance and demand growing after the great plague of the 14th century which decimated much of the European work force. The maritime town of Lagos, Portugal, was the first slave market created in Portugal for the sale of imported African slaves, the Mercado de Escravos, which opened in 1444. In 1441, the first slaves were brought to Portugal from northern Mauritania. Prince Henry the Navigator, major sponsor of the Portuguese African expeditions, as of any other merchandise, taxed one fifth of the selling price of the slaves imported to Portugal. By 1552, African slaves made up 10% of the population of Lisbon. In the second half of the 16th century, the Crown gave up the monopoly on slave trade and the focus of European trade in African slaves shifted from import to Europe to slave transports directly to tropical colonies in the Americas—in the case of Portugal, especially Brazil. In the 15th century, one third of the slaves were resold to the African market in exchange of gold.

Slave markets in Africa
The slave trade had existed in North Africa since antiquity, with a supply of African slaves arriving through trans-Saharan trade routes. The towns on the North African coast were recorded in Roman times for their slave markets, and this trend continued into the medieval age. The Barbary slave trade on the Barbary Coast increased in influence in the 15th century, when the Ottoman Empire took over as rulers of the area. Coupled with this was an influx of Sephardi Jews and Moorish refugees, newly expelled from Spain after the Reconquista. The Barbary slave trade encompassed both African slavery and White slavery.

The Velekete Slave Market established in 1502 in Badagry, Lagos State, was significant during the Atlantic slave trade in Badagry as it served as a business point where African middlemen sold slaves to European slave merchants thus making it one of the most populous slave markets in West Africa.

Another historic slave market was Bono Manso Slave market around 16th century, which was centered at a giant Baobab tree to the west of the town played a major role in the Atlantic slave trade. This was one of the oldest slave transitions points in the Gold Coast.

Slave markets in North America
In the history of slavery in the United States, the domestic slave trade had become a major economic activity by 1815, and lasted until the 1860s. Between 1830 and 1840, nearly 250,000 slaves were taken across state lines. In the 1850s, more than 193,000 were transported, and historians estimate nearly one million in total took part in the forced migration of this new Middle Passage. By 1860, the slave population in the United States had reached 4 million. In the 1840s, almost 300,000 slaves were transported, with Alabama and Mississippi receiving 100,000 each. During each decade between 1810 and 1860, at least 100,000 slaves were moved from their state of origin. In the final decade before the Civil War, 250,000 were moved. Historian Ira Berlin wrote:

"The internal slave trade became the largest enterprise in the South outside the plantation itself, and probably the most advanced in its employment of modern transportation, finance, and publicity. The slave trade industry developed its own unique language, with terms such as 'prime hands, bucks, breeding wenches, and 'fancy girls' coming into common use." The expansion of the interstate slave trade contributed to the "economic revival of once depressed seaboard states" as demand accelerated the value of slaves who were subject to sale.

Some traders moved their "chattels" by sea, with Norfolk to New Orleans being the most common route, but most slaves were forced to walk overland in coffles. Others were shipped downriver from such markets as Louisville on the Ohio River, and Natchez on the Mississippi. Traders created regular migration routes served by a network of slave pens, yards, and warehouses needed as temporary housing for the slaves. In addition, other vendors provided clothes, food, and supplies for slaves. As the trek advanced, some slaves were sold and new ones purchased. Berlin concluded, "In all, the slave trade, with its hubs and regional centers, its spurs and circuits, reached into every cranny of southern society. Few southerners, black or white, were untouched".

New Orleans, where French colonists had established sugarcane plantations and exported sugar as the chief commodity crop, became nationally important as a slave market and port, as slaves were shipped from there upriver by steamboat to plantations on the Mississippi River; it also sold slaves who had been shipped downriver from markets such as Louisville. By 1840, it had the largest slave market in North America. It became the wealthiest and the fourth-largest city in the nation, based chiefly on the slave trade and associated businesses. The trading season was from September to May, after the harvest.

One of the most famous remaining slave market buildings in the United States is the Old Slave Mart in Charleston, South Carolina. Throughout the first half of the 19th century, slaves brought into Charleston were sold at public auctions held on the north side of the Exchange and Provost building. After the city prohibited public slave auctions in 1856, enclosed slave markets sprang up along Chalmers, State, and Queen streets. One such market was Ryan's Mart, established by City Councilman and broker, Thomas Ryan and his business partner, James Marsh. Ryan's Mart originally consisted of a closed lot with three structures— a four-story barracoon or slave jail, a kitchen, and a morgue or "dead house".

In 1859, an auction master named Z. B. Oakes purchased Ryan's Mart, and built what is now the Old Slave Mart building for use as an auction gallery. The building's auction table was 3 ft high and 10 ft long and stood just inside the arched doorway. In addition to slaves, the market sold real estate and stock. Slave auctions at Ryan's Mart were advertised in broadsheets throughout the 1850s, some appearing as far away as Galveston, Texas.

title: Slave market


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User talk:Zsero

Advent calendar pic copyright problem
Hi, I just saw your notice about File:Standard advent calendar.jpg. I'm sorry, I didn't realize the problem at the time (photo of others' work).

I'm hoping I can catch you and see if you have advice over whether it's worth trying to find a solution aside from speedy deletion? Would I be able to change the licensing info on the file, such as acknowledging copyright and claiming fair use (if applicable!) ?

As for fair use, I hate to start making an argument because I know it's very overused and I still have more to learn about it. But in this case, isn't this akin to taking a photo of any other product, like a Tonka truck and uploading it? Uploading an image of the artwork on the product has no commercial effect on its use in the product, as people buy an advent calendar to use an advent calendar. Qwerty0 (talk) 20:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair use is not allowed on Commons, so it must be deleted from there without question. And on English WP it's only allowed if it contributes something unique to the article that can't be replaced by a free image.  If you think this is so, you can upload it here and add a fair use rationale explaining why a non-free image should be allowed in this instance. -- Zsero (talk) 20:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Ok, thank you so much for clarification. I'm not very familiar with either the Commons or file protocols.  And actually, I think I like the first photo you replaced mine with better so I'm alright with not re-uploading mine.

 * But I think we need a photo in the article of a typical calendar (as described in the text of the intro and "Modern Calendars" section). And having read more about the non-free use policy, I'm pretty sure that as well as exemplifying the article topic, there is no free equivalent (this most common type is always a commercial product), it has zero effect on commercial opportunities, and at least File:Adventskalender_1.jpg is of quite low resolution.  If I am able to get a version of either of the files with proper licensing and rationale given, would you object to me using it for the article? Qwerty0 (talk) 22:18, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

 * The other pic also appears at first glance to be a copyvio, but I've asked the uploader to clarify its status. If it is deleted from the Commons, it could be uploaded to the individual WPs to be included in articles under fair use; then it would just need a rationale for why it needs to be in the article, i.e. the reader needs to be shown what a modern commercial calendar looks like, and by definition these are unlikely to be available with a free license.  -- Zsero (talk) 22:31, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Alright then, thanks a lot for being so helpful. Now I know where to go from here.  I hope that guy with the first photo updates, since I like his better.  But if not, maybe I'll resize mine and upload it again. Qwerty0 (talk) 22:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Tropper and BLP
I have blocked the editor who kept adding poorly sourced negative material to the biography of Leib Tropper. However, please keep in mind that the Jewish Telegraphic Agency is a reliable source that can be used in the article on Tropper. Jayjg (talk) 05:51, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It's only a reliable source if it's reporting the results of its own research. In this case it's just parroting Rosenberg, which makes it no more reliable than him.   -- Zsero (talk) 05:54, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources are not characterized by whether or not they do their own research, but rather based on whether the material they publish has reliable editorial oversight. This JTA article has no less editorial oversight than any other JTA article. Jayjg (talk) 06:07, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Read the JTA piece. It says nothing in its own voice.  It doesn't say the tapes exist, let alone what they say or whose voice is on them.  All it says is "Rosenberg says all these things".  So we have a RS that Rosenberg said them, but he is not reliable and his unsupported accusations aren't reportable by us, especially such serious ones about a BLP.  Remember, RS is not a magic wand; it's a policy that exists for a defined reason.  Also remember that there is no such thing as an absolutely reliable source; sources are reliable only to the extent that they do fact-checking and editorial oversight, both of which this piece clearly didn't have. -- Zsero (talk) 06:18, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia shiur
That's cool! I live not far away from you, geographically. Also, I'm not Orthodox. I was raised Conservative and am active in the Reform group at my University. I have a secular education and am trying to catch up on some of what I would have learned had I gone to Yeshiva. I'm also interested in Jewish outreach. By the way, are you Chabad? I notice that Chabad is one of the articles you're most active in editing. I've visited several Chabad houses in various parts of the U.S. and it's incredible what Chabad does for Jewish outreach. There was a real void in Jewish outreach and R. Schneerson Z"L had genius in entering it. Other movements are now learning from Chabad, and in my opinion, the non-Orthodox movements need to work on bringing their own distinctive approaches to the cause.  I'm also interested in Karaite Judaism, which essentially sides with the Conservative on tzniut.  I think the basic premises of Karaism are relatively easy to understand, and I don't fully understand the arguments for Rabbanism.  -- AFriedman  (talk)  15:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not identify as a Chabadnik, or as much of anything beyond Orthodox. My email is [mailto:zev@sero.name zev@sero.name]  -- Zsero (talk) 15:51, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, thanks again. I just wanted to let you know that I'm done with finals. My email is [mailto:reseal05@gmail.com reseal05@gmail.com]. -- AFriedman  (talk) 00:34, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Leib Tropper
I have left Truth transparancy a 3RR warning on his talk page, if he reverts one more time I will make a report about him. Off2riorob (talk) 20:06, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Illustrator
Just wanted to show a 20th-century illustration. Pepso2 (talk) 03:19, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Surely there must be at least one free illustration from the 20th century!  I could believe that there isn't one from some particular school, but from an entire century you can't find even one?!   -- Zsero (talk) 04:57, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Tropper
Hi, I am still not happy about this content which is weakly cited and alleged and claimed....

''In early December 2009, recordings were circulating on the internet of conversations between a man alleged to be Tropper and a woman whose conversion he is alleged to have been supervising, and which appear to show that the two were having a sexual affair. ''

I have taken it out a couple of times but it has been replaced and still sits there now, do you support this content inclusion? Off2riorob (talk) 22:03, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There has to be some mention of this, since it's a major story and it's in RS. I don't think there's any question that the Post is RS. I insist on keeping out links to the recordings, since they're not at an RS and they haven't been authenticated, but the fact that they're alleged to exist has to be mentioned.  The juxtaposition to his resignation should also be kept, since every person with a brain in his head knows that they are linked and there's no reason to deliberately hide that; this is why I think it shouldn't have been moved to the generic "controversies" section but should stay in the EJF section.   In general I think you've gone a bit overboard here; all I wanted was to keep out stuff that was sourced only to blogs, even if the blogs were quoted verbatim by so-called "RS", and to prevent allegations from being reported as established fact. -- Zsero (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't move it, it is clearly weak and not being widely reported, it is all claimed and very weak..I would remove it, and have done twice..as far as anyone with a brain in their head can see..that 2 plus 2 equales 4 goes, I prefer citations.... I am happy to leave it with you as an experienced editor and you being knowledgeable in this field..One thing I would say..if the accusations are not confirmed somehow or at least strengthened by addition reliable citations in the near future that the content should be removed
 * Yes, I know you didn't move it; I was saying that I wish michab hadn't moved it. The thing is, there's almost certainly something going on, or he wouldn't have resigned so suddenly.  Exactly what is another question, and the major source that everyone including the so-called "reliable sources" are quoting is blogger Scott Rosenberg, whom I wouldn't believe if he told me it was raining.  It's rather like the situation last year with Sarah Palin, where all the "reliable sources" were getting their information from the blogger Andy Halcro, who was making up any old thing that fell into his head and feeding it to them, so Wikipedia had to report it all as if it were fact.-- Zsero (talk) 07:03, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes thats true when the comment was moved and stood alone it appeared all the more wrong, your of course correct that clearly something is going on... we don't have to report controversial weakely cited content as though fact, but...anyway..lets see how it develops, imo it will vanish. The wiki is full of such content, regards for the discussion. Off2riorob (talk) 17:12, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Hi, there is a new discussion regarding Trotter at the talkpage, I would appreciate it if you added your opinion on the matter. Off2riorob (talk) 22:19, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

British Jews
I acknowledge that my additional section (on the Anglosism of British Jewry) was lacking in grammar and references, but you didn't need to delete the whols section, you could have just corrected it and kept it in. It's important and relevant information. Colt .55 (talk) 18:10, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think its thesis is true. And as written it was not salvageable; the heading was a non-word! If you have actual facts to add, and can do so in the English language and can back them up with references, then do so; otherwise don't. -- Zsero (talk) 18:56, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

DON'T FOLLOW ME ARONUD
Do not follow me around reverting everything, please I'm new but what you are doing is wrong!!--Mamalala (talk) 03:14, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually it's exactly right. Your edits that I've seen have generally not been improving the articles, so I'm checking up on the rest of your edits to see whether they follow the same pattern.   -- Zsero (talk) 03:20, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't revert work of new users o.k.?? --Mamalala (talk) 03:22, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Why on earth not? If the article is not improved by their edits then they need to be reverted.  And new users are more likely than old ones to make unproductive edits.  -- Zsero (talk) 03:23, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Why my edits are not improving the article? You are reverting everything without reason. What about talk page?--Mamalala (talk) 03:29, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

It appears that the user and the IP are acting in concert. If their edits are vandalistic, you could consider reporting them to WP:AIV. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:31, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * They're not vandalism, just not generally improvements to the articles. I've been explaining in edit summaries where I think the problem isn't obvious.  -- Zsero (talk) 03:33, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * NO!! I'm just not welcome here! You are reverting everything! This is exactly what I  read about in the press. New users are chased away by people like you!--Mamalala (talk) 03:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Have I left any nasty messages at your talk page? No. So how are you being driven away?  But the object here is to improve the encylopaedia, not to degrade it, even slightly.  When you make a change that makes the article slightly worse, e.g. by substituting not quite the right word for exactly the right one, or by injecting Polish nationalism where it doesn't belong, an editor who disagrees with it has every right to fix it. -- Zsero (talk) 03:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * O.K. I'm sorry.--Mamalala (talk) 03:48, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but why you keep following me around reverting everything? Why do you think you know everything?--Mamalala (talk) 04:08, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm following your edits because most of them are not improvements. They haven't yet reached the point of pure vandalism, but they're getting there.  In some cases the problem should be obvious.  Where it is not, I have indicated it in the edit summary. -- Zsero (talk) 04:10, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I will report you
I you don't stop following me and reverting my edits I will report you.--Mamalala (talk) 04:28, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * On what grounds do you think you can report me? -- Zsero (talk) 04:31, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry but this is wrong what you were doing. You reverted all my edits leaving me no choice.[]--Mamalala (talk) 04:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

COI complaint and discussion concerning your pro-Chabad POV editing
A WP:COI complaint and discussion concerning your pro-Chabad POV editing and writing has started at Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 04:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for this help
[]--Mamalala (talk) 06:26, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

A lot to learn...
Thanks for your help and no bad feelings okay? I'm going to bed now. Tomorrow may ask you for some assistance.--Mamalala (talk) 07:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you
... for handling the Mamalala incidents. Not yet convinced that this is a new user, but for now giving the benefit of doubt. Best Skäpperöd (talk) 08:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Jonathan Taylor Thomas
Yo, just thought I would let you know why I labeled JTT as a former actor. I edited the article to state he is a former actor because he hasn't acted in three or four years. Since his occupation was actor, and he is no longer acting, i thought it was notable. Like if a firefighter or something is no longer fighting fires he's a former firefighter. Peter Napkin Dance Party (talk) 05:49, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Please review
My comments here. Thanks, Tomertalk 19:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Chicpeas.JPG
The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. Skier Dude ( talk ) 06:11, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I was not aware of WP:NFCC, which says that non-free content may not be used on talk pages.  I will replace the image on Talk:Gaffer tape with an external link.  As for this image, I think it might have a place in Spelling, if I can work up a lot of new text to add to that section, so that it has room for more pictures [[Image:smile.png]].  I'm not sure if I can do that within a week, though, so if I haven't feel free to delete it, and I'll re-upload it when I'm ready.  I might also find a way to work it in to Counterfeit consumer goods; that article really needs to actually mention that misspellings are a common sign of knock-offs, and this image might then be valuable as a counter-example, of a label that's misspelt because everyone at the manufacturer who could have caught the error is illiterate. -- Zsero (talk) 14:38, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Sk8punk3d288 block
Hi. According to a message on my talk page left below your message, another user was just as guilty, perhaps more so and he's defending my block. I didn't mean to come off as "punishing" anyone, but a gross error like that which makes negative international press seemed to me to be a legit basis for a block. While I believe I was justified in blocking him, I'll unblock the account per your request. In retrospect, it was more negligence than outright vandalism. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 04:25, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Personal information of a minor
Please see WP:CHILD: "Deletion and oversight may be used in appropriate cases to remove the information." The standard operating procedure on the oversight list is to suppress these to protect the children and their families. You are more than welcome to contact the oversight list or the Ombudsman commission if you believe I have used the tools improperly. -- Avi (talk) 18:26, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This goes even doubled for pictures which:
 * The child has no legal right to upload an release copyright.
 * The child cannot be assumed to understand the ramifications of their actions even werethe to have the legal ability to release the copyright.
 * May quickly be spread throughout the internet and be used for disgusting, if not dangerous purposes.
 * -- Avi (talk) 18:31, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You wrote that you were acting per a policy. I merely asked what policy that was.  WP:CHILD is just an essay.  As for the photo, why would he not have the right to release the copyright?  And why would this picture be more likely to be misused than any other picture of a child, of which there are many on WP and the Commons, and which WP policy does not in any way discourage?   I am making no allegations whatsoever, I am merely asking why you acted as you did, and specifically which policy you cited as your reason. -- Zsero (talk) 18:44, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Images of children that are not associated with a name, username etc. wouldn't be as much of an issue; or old images of children who have since grown up, etc. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:18, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Rav Shach page
I've edited the page and posted to the discussion of this page. In case you don't see it, here's what I wrote: Winchester and Zsero's edits to the footnotes have no business in an encyclopedia article about Rav Shach: they are nothing more than an attempt to repudiate the charges against their rebbe. If they would like to create a new Wiki page on "refutations to anti-Chabad charges of idolatry" I'm game. But Zsero's title "this is a footnote, not an essay" is as relevant to his edits as mine. I cut these two some slack by leaving their footnotes largely intact but adding some corrective information (to the effect that their sources neither corroborated their claim nor, in all but the Tanya instances, had anything to do with their rebbe's sicha). Therefore, I've largely removed both footnotes - leaving only direct links to the offending sicha so readers can draw their own conclusions (I believe in empowering people to make educated decisions...others seem to disagree). If Winchester and Zsero insist on turning this page into a platform for tangential (and incorrect) ideological rhetoric, I may launch a neutrality complaint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tikkunsofrim (talk • contribs) 22:02, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Rush Limbaugh
I interpreted that comment by Rush as meaning this was a major turning point in his life. Based on your action, I guess we should wait and see. It is a little hard to figure out what will look important five years from now. What stood out the most, though, was that the man had been out of the hospital 21 hours, and Wikipedia had NOTHING.

Oh, and the word got out that Wikipedia showed Rush had died. You're a hero.Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 19:00, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Once he was out of hospital, the story of his having gone there in the first place needed to be made shorter, not longer.  A brief hospitalisation that turned out to be nothing is worth one sentence, not a whole paragraph.

 * Oh, and the article had him as dead for a grand total of 6 minutes and 11 minutes; errors and vandalism are quickly corrected. But unless your intention was to congratulate me on having reverted the first of the two incidents, I don't understand why you bothered to mention it. -- Zsero (talk) 19:08, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't know about the second incident but we appreciate your keeping watch.

 * You'll have to forgive me as I tend to err on the side of more information, not less, figuring over time some of the information will seem less important.Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 19:13, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Civility
This is a general warning to all users involved in recent COIN and ANI discussions. Please stop talking about other users mental status, mental health or their person. As the WP:CIVILITY policy says, "Even during heated debates, editors should behave politely, calmly and reasonably, in order to keep the focus on improving the encyclopedia and to help maintain a pleasant editing environment" and WP:NPA which states: "comments should not be personalized and should be directed at content and actions rather than people". I am drawing a line under what has been said to this point so you all right now have a clean slate, but I intend to start blocking users on both sides of the dispute who continue engaging in violations of the behavioural policies so please accept this as a final warning. Thanks, Sarah 05:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration notification
You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Requests for arbitration and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—
 * Requests for arbitration;
 * Arbitration guide.

Thanks, IZAK (talk) 09:03, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

File:RebShimon.jpg & File:RavYosefLeibBloch.jpg
Please note that these images have been undeleted per Deletion review/Log/2009 December 30. I strongly urge you to go back to these articles and review them to ensure they are properly tagged and have a proper fair-use rationale per WP:NFC as soon as possible to prevent their possible deletion should it be proposed. Shereth 22:48, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

AfD
Please see: Articles for deletion/Sister Vincenza Taffarel (2nd nomination).Borock (talk) 20:06, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Chabad movement
An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Chabad movement/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Chabad movement/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Lankiveil (speak to me) 07:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Unwritten rules
Re a discussion we were having on Avi's talk page: Note that one of the five pillars of Wikipedia (WP:5P) is "Wikipedia does not have firm rules". I think one reason there are some unwritten rules is that different rules have different levels of support; they might be supported by 30%, 50%, 70%, 90% or 99% of Wikipedians. Even if something is only supported by 30% of Wikipedians, that means there isn't a very strong consensus for the opposite, and going directly against it could annoy a large minority. There are some subtleties about how to get along within the consensus system. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:25, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Chabad movement evidence
Would you please look at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Chabad movement/Evidence and rewrite/reformat as appropriate your evidence to answer Fritzpoll? Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 15:48, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Motion to dismiss or keep the Chabad editors case
Hello Zsero: A discussion has started if the Chabad editors case should be dismissed or should remain open. See Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Chabad movement/Evidence. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 08:21, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Chabad movement
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. Editors are reminded to keep in mind Wikipedia policies, and seek content-dispute resolution if collaboration between editors breaks down. Editors are also reminded to continue editing in good faith. No enforcement motions are included in the final decision, but a request may be made to reopen the case should the situation deteriorate.

For the Arbitration Committee, Lankiveil (speak to me) 07:57, 13 February 2010 (UTC).
 * Zsero, if you continue to remove reliably sourced material from the article on Schneerson, that may well be an indication that the case needs to be re-opened. Jayjg (talk) 06:17, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The slanderous material that I removed should have been removed a long time ago. Your imagination that Erlich is a reliable source is the biggest joke.  In the case of this statement, it is not true, and Olidort never told Erlich any such thing.  Erlich made it up.  Therefore it does not belong in the article.  You forget that truth may not be sufficient for inclusion in WP, but it is necessary.  -- Zsero (talk) 06:23, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Jason Taylor (guitarist)
You've made some (positive) edits to this article--please see Articles for deletion/Jason Taylor (guitarist). Thanks, Drmies (talk) 20:18, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Blocked
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 72 hours for repeatedly removing no-license file deletion tags. Please stop. You are welcome to make useful contributions after the block expires. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first.  F ASTILY  (T ALK ) 04:18, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Since you have chosen to disregard warnings and knowingly violate WP:NFCC, I have temporarily revoked your editing privileges. -  F ASTILY  (T ALK ) 04:22, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

 * And how exactly is that not "process for the sake of process"? What would bureaucracy look like if it were not this?  -- Zsero (talk) 05:46, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

You have been blocked from editing for a period of Two Weeks for removing no-license file deletion tags. Please stop. You are welcome to make useful contributions after the block expires. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first.  F ASTILY  (T ALK ) 05:22, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You just don't learn do you? Immediately after release of your previous block, you return and violate the exact same policy, WP:NFCC, that I blocked you for violating not but a few days ago.  If I have to block you again, it will be indefinitely.  -  F ASTILY  (T ALK ) 05:28, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Divine providence (Judaism)
Hi Zsero. Please see Talk:Divine providence (Judaism). Thanks. Fintor (talk) 13:11, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Non-free-unsure
Template:Non-free-unsure has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. — ξ xplicit  06:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Sholom Rubashin article and AfD
Hi Zsero: Because of your interest in this topic, you will hopefully be able to upgrade the Sholom Rubashkin article and add a balanced WP:NPOV to this important biography. You may also want to take a look at Articles for deletion/Sholom Rubashkin. Sincerely, IZAK (talk) 16:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer
Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under pending changes. Pending changes is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at Special:OldReviewedPages.

When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Courcelles (talk) 18:27, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Template:Non-free unsure
Zsero, please refrain from using Non-free unsure on non-free files. The template is depreciated by consensus and Fair use in has been created to take its place. Simply removing the depreciation notice and slapping an egregious claim on the talk page of the template does not justify its use as a valid license tag mandated by Wikipedia's non-free content policy criterion 10b. In case you didn't know, your four images are the only images which bear transclusions of Non-free unsure. Now, please understand that I am not going to ask you to stop using an invalid and depreciated template as an accepted license tag again - consider yourself warned. Thanks,  F ASTILY  (T ALK ) 02:43, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What consensus are you talking about? Where is this consensus documented?  I have initiated a discussion on the talk page asking for reasons why the template should be deprecated.  If you have a reason why it should be, then make your case in that discussion.  You are not entitled to simply revert my change because you don't like it, without discussing it and making a reasoned argument against it.   And you are certainly not entitled to deliberately add lies to Wikipedia, by claiming that an image is copyright when you don't know that for a fact.
 * Nor are you entitled to block people for no reason, as you did me; your behaviour in that matter is outrageous and unforgivable. That I have not spent the time and energy it would take to pursue the sanctions you richly deserve does not vindicate you.  You should be ashamed of yourself for what you did.  You did not cite any relevant policy to back your position (NFCC, of course, does not apply to free content), nor did you address any point I raised.  You simply used your power as an administrator and told me to obey you without explanation, or else.  That is a clear abuse of the power with which you were entrusted.  -- Zsero (talk) 04:03, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Indef Blocked
You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for Disruptive Editing. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text below, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first.  F ASTILY  (T ALK ) 06:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I've asked you, politely, many times to stop using a license tag depreciated by consensus (in case you did not know, license tags are depreciated only by consensus), but yet, you refuse to do just that. Understand that Non-free unsure is only retained for historical purposes and not day-to-day use.  Despite knowing full well that Non-free unsure is now an outdated and unacceptable tag, you have continued to egregiously insist that the tag is still valid, going as far as creating a duplicate, Template:Non-free-unsure, to circumvent Non-free unsure's depreciation.  While I have attempted to correspond with you on this matter in a civil, collegial manner, you have responded with a slew of personal attacks, shouting, and unfounded accusations.  Your talk page history and many of your recent edit summaries are simply testament to this fact. I'm sorry Zsero, but as an administrator, I am charged with the duty of protecting this project from legal threats/copyright issues.  With that being said, you are blocked indefinitely until you agree to respect established media file policy, especially WP:NFCC.  Let me echo Sandstein up above, "If you disagree, seek consensus to change policy instead of violating it, which is disruptive".  Regards,  F ASTILY  (T ALK ) 06:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I have repeatedly asked Fastily to make his point, if he has one, in the appropriate place, i.e. in the talk page of the template. Fastily has refused to do so. Contrary to his claim, he has made no attempt to correspond with me "in a civil, collegial manner", or in any manner at all. He has simply given me orders and demanded that I obey.

He claims there is a consensus against my edit, but ignored my request to point to where this consensus is documented, or explain why it arose, or make any argument whatsoever for it. He simply asserts that it's so, and that I must accept that. Of course even if there was once a consensus, that would be no reason for me not to reopen the question, and no excuse for him not to engage in that discussion; past consensuses are not binding in any way. But I don't even know that there ever was one; he hasn't even documented that. And of course without knowing the arguments (if any) originally made for that (supposed) consensus I can't possibly be expected to address them.

All he does, all he has ever done throughout this dispute, is rest on his supposed authority as an admin to give orders, an authority that of course doesn't exist. He has never once deigned to explain what, if anything, I've been doing wrong, or addressed my arguments in any way at all. All I've done is made an edit, initiated a discussion in the talk page explaining why I did so, and waited for someone, anyone, to respond; the result has been a deafening silence, and Fastily reverting without explanation, and now a block. I really don't know what else I can be expected to have done.

I specifically deny ever knowingly violating a policy, or indeed ever violating one at all. If I have done so, it is up to Fastily to explain how my actions contradict the policy, and honestly address my explanations and questions. He was certainly not entitled to claim, as he did, that I violated the NFCC policy with my edit to File:Bluewaterarena.jpg, which is not non-free content! He was also not entitled to ignore my repeated explanation that the edit he keeps making to the Noronic files is inappropriate because it makes a factual claim which is simply false; if he thinks the claim he adds is true then he should explain why, not ignore it.

I don't know what personal attacks or unfounded accusations he's talking about above; if he means my claim that he is abusing his admin powers, I ask you: if this is not an abuse then what is?! -- Zsero (talk) 14:56, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Per the above, I've declined this request. I also want to add that the talk page of a deprecated template is absolutely the wrong place to discuss these issues, for the very reason that no one really monitors deprecated templates - they're deprecated! As for the personal attacks, I'm pretty sure accusing other editors of lying (as with edit summaries such as this) is a personal attack. YMMV, however. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 15:13, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Fastily was certainly aware of it; if he felt the discussion belonged in some other place he should have told me where to move it. And he certainly should have made some attempt to participate in it and explain why he thought my edit was wrong.  Instead he ignored it and my constant requests to explain his position there.  What else was I supposed to do?
 * I explained exactly why it was a lie. Do you disagree?  Fastily made a factual claim (that the image is copyright) that he had no basis for believing to be true, and he knew this well because I'd already pointed it out to him several times.  He has never once attempted to explain why he thinks his factual claim is true, or at least likely to be true; he just kept making it, and ignoring my pointing out that it's a falsehood.  If that's not lying, what is?  -- Zsero (talk) 15:22, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm still trying to figure this one out myself. I just spent a half hour looking for the discussion that resulted in the deprecation of this template, and so far have come up with nil. This edit, which put in the deprecation notice, doesn't have a helpful summary. Could someone please point me to where a consensus developed for this? The only references I've found to it include Carcharoth saying it was deprecated and he didn't know why. It looks to me like Poccil cut-and-pasted something from one template to another and just picked up the deprecated notice on the way. --jpgordon:==( o ) 15:35, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The discussion appears to have occured here in 2005 as best I could find; not sure why the tag was nto depiciated until early 2006.  Kuru   (talk)  15:39, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks. Doesn't seem to be a heck of a lot of discussion there, and nothing specific to this; indeed, it looks like Poccil cut-and-pasted the template without considering whether this particular one was actually deprecated. (Otherwise, one would think he would have said something somewhere like "oops, we forgot to put the deprecated language on the 'unsure' tag.") --jpgordon:==( o ) 15:53, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Not sure; the sequence of events is quite a mess. As much as I detest process wankery, copyright problems are one of the "better safe than sorry" affairs and "seek consensus to change policy instead of violating it" would indeed be the preferred modality.  It would seem like a simple thing to simply re-start a civil discussion at WP:NFCC and let it come to a consensus before utilizing the disputed tag again.   Kuru   (talk)  16:26, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, certainly. "Correct but not civil" just causes problems. --jpgordon:==( o ) 16:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I've taken the discussion to Wikipedia talk:Non-free content. --jpgordon:==( o ) 17:05, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "seek consensus to change policy instead of violating it". But I'm not seeking to change policy, and I certainly didn't violate it.  Every image that I uploaded was completely in accord with policy, and the way I presented them was completely in accord with policy.  All I did was change a template in a way that seemed appropriate to me, and initiate a discussion in which people could make arguments against my edit, and explain why it was wrong.  So far nobody has done so.
 * The fact is that this template or one like it is needed, for images like the ones I used it for. We can't say for a fact that they're copyright, because it's probably not true.  But we can't say for a fact that they're not copyright, even though that's probably true, because it just might not be.  So what can we do but lay out the reasons why they might be copyright as well as the reasons why we think they're probably not, and then play it safe and treat them as if they were copyright?
 * At any rate, since you agree that I didn't defy any consensus, let alone any policy, could you please unblock me? Especially since until you do so I can't participate in the discussion you started?
 * Also, if I've been "correct but not civil", please point out where. (I stand by my characterisation of the changes Fastily made as lies, because they were statements of fact that he knew to be without foundation.  That's pretty much the definition of a lie.)
 * -- Zsero (talk) 19:47, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the words you were looking for are "I can see there is confusion in a topic of some import, and that my approach of boldly interpreting our copyright procedures has been met with significant concern from other good faith editors. I will avoid the previous actions I have taken and instead seek to participate in the discussion jpgordon has graciously initiated for me."  That seems more civil, no? It seems unlikely that Fastily would review this block when you still intend to continue the problematic edits, and when you are still taking shots at him.  Good luck.  Kuru   (talk)  20:14, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't looking for Fastily to review the block; I was under the impression that unblock requests were supposed to be reviewed by uninvolved admins, not by the one who, I believe, has been acting in bad faith all along. -- Zsero (talk) 03:07, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Zsero, I'll unblock you iff you agree to not insert the template in question until the issue has been resolved. --jpgordon:==( o ) 20:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I will agree not to reinsert my template on these images, but I won't agree to leaving his template in place, because it tells a lie.  If he'll agree not to reinsert his template, I'll remove mine and the images can remain without a template for the duration of the discussion.  He's the one who insisted on having a template in the first place, and kept nominating the images for deletion because I couldn't find one that fit the facts.  Then I found a template that, with some modification, would fit the facts; I thought he'd be happy, but no.
 * But more fundamentally, I ask you in the name of justice, why is it that I'm blocked and not him? How is my behaviour worse than his?  Shouldn't he be blocked until he agrees to participate in discussion and not reinsert his template on the images?  After all, I followed procedure and he did not.  I made my change, started a discussion on the talk page, and waited for comment; he knew about the discussion but refused to participate and instead just kept reverting to his version.  How is that not blockable behaviour?!  Why must I be the one to make promises and let his version stay pending discussion, rather than the other way around?  Just because he's an admin?!
 * My main concern is that Wikipedia should not be telling lies, even for a few weeks. Whatever defects my version may have (and I've yet to hear any but am open to the possibility that they may exist), it has the one big advantage of telling the truth, whereas his version makes a false statement of fact, and therefore shouldn't be left up even for a short while.  I point out that his version is not the "stable" one.  It's not as if I came along and disturbed a stable version, and he was just restoring it.  Let's restore to the status quo ante, which is no template at all, but only a text explanation of the images' copyright status, and then have the discussion about the template.   -- Zsero (talk) 03:07, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, well, never mind. --jpgordon:==( o ) 05:52, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The key misunderstanding here is with our Non-free content policy; If there is a chance that an image is copyrighted (as appears to be the case here), we assume it is indeed copyrighted and treat it accordingly. This isn't a case of lying, it's a case of playing it safe. Our policies mandate this approach, as you were informed repeatedly. Turn the question around - why is your interpretation enough to trump the analysis of multiple administrators and editors, all of whom disagree with your position? Consensus is against you on this point - which is fine, it happens, no problem. That's where discussion comes in. Once he reverted you again, that should have been the end of it - leave it alone until the discussion progresses. You continued to revert, and that generated the block. Even if he was wrong to revert you again, a point on which I make no judgement, your conduct is what is at issue here, and that conduct justified the block. Your refusal to compromise on your position, even if only to continue discussion, indicates that the disruption will continue, and so you remain blocked. If we had some assurance that you would comply with policy (even while disagreeing with it and discussing your interpretation of it), you might have a shot at an unblock, but we're not there yet. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 13:51, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

 * In my experience here, there is a fanatical paranoia about images. The wikipedia policy goes far beyond that which is mandated by law. For that reason, I don't bother even trying to upload images anymore unless I took the picture myself, and even then sometimes I get hassled for not having the i's dotted and the t's crossed precisely the way this week's rules have it. Don't bother fighting the deletionists. You will not win. It's a waste of your time and energy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The last thing we want is to have the Wikimedia foundation sued to the ground - then there would be no Wikipedia for any of us to edit then would there? We already have enough legal trouble as it is ranging from "porn" on Commons to nut jobs who are disgruntled with system - why should we care to garner any more trouble?  When we deal with non-free media files, we often deal with the property of large corporate businesses that possess infinitely more resources and lawyers than does the Wikimedia foundation. It is utterly fallacious to pick a legal fight we know we will lose.  Fair use provides us with protection under US law; failure to utilize this shield opens windows for our enemies and offended copyright holders to attack. - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 19:43, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't follow legalistic fair use guidelines. Wikipedia invented its own fair use definition which is much stricter than the law requires. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. But I suppose it really comes down more to better safe than sorry.  - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 19:56, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It also creates the paradox that the only fully acceptable photos violate the rules against original research. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Only if the photo perpetuates some novel theory. As long as it indisputably shows what it purports to show, there's no problem.  Where original research moreso enters into it is with charts or maps. --B (talk) 20:23, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Since it's a picture an editor took, it inherently has no citations as to its validity. It's like a blog or any other unreliable source. If I were an expert at such things, I could create an amazingly-accurate model of the Great Pyramid out of beach sand, take a photo of it and pass it off as the real thing, and who is anyone to argue? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but this is not the reason for Wikipedia's fair use policy. It has nothing to do with "better safe than sorry".  It's that we deliberately refuse to use all but the most limited set of images under a claim of fair use in order to facilitate the growth of free media.  We could use a lot of things, but we'd prefer not to because we would rather someone create a free one and we'd rather remove potential encumbrances to reuse of Wikipedia content. --B (talk) 20:26, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I remember this discussion from a couple of years ago. In essence, it's "We look amateurish and we're proud of it!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, that is one of the main reasons for the non-free policy. Both encouragement of the use of free content and protection against legal issues are used as rationale for the policy. - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 20:42, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Why does that trump the rule against original research? Any photo taken by an editor and posted here is inherently original research, because there is very unlikely to be a valid citation that it is what it claims to be. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Files by users are exempt. - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 20:52, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, shucky-darn. I didn't recall seeing that before, but it's been awhile. I reckon they wrote that specifically to address complaints like mine. I would read into that also, that if someone challenges the validity of a photo, the uploader had best be prepared to defend it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:56, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Quite. It happens on a rather frequent basis too.  - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 02:00, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

December 2010 update
I wasn't involved in the blocking kerfuffle documented above. But maybe an update is in order.

The template that Zsero was asked to stop using was Non-free unsure. This template was deleted in August 2010 (i.e. subsequent to the Zsero blocking kerfuffle), because other editors besides Zsero were using it. The deletion discussion is here. So, this template is no longer subject to misuse by Zsero or anyone else.

During the Zsero blocking kerfuffle, User:jpgordon tried to find out whether Template:Non-free unsure had ever actually been legitimately deprecated. Accordingly, jpgordon submitted an inquiry at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content. The null result of that inquiry is now archived here, indicating at least that there was valid reason to doubt that this template had ever been properly deprecated.

There were four images at issue during the blocking kerfuffle, including  and  of a Canadian ship (the SS Noronic) that was destroyed by fire in 1949. The images had been uploaded by Zsero, and (whatever the details of the blocking kerfuffle may be) these images uploaded by Zsero continue to adorn the article SS Noronic, as of December 2010. I don't know what the other two images were.

The edit history for the Noronic images shows quite a bit of reverting. The talk pages for the images remain completely empty, which suggests a lack of communication from all sides.

The tags on the two Noronic images say: "This work is copyrighted and unlicensed." As I read the Zsero blocking kerfuffle, no one has any certainty that these two images are actually copyrighted. Zsero felt that it was therefore inappropriate for Wikipedia to assert that they're copyrighted when actually we don't know for sure. In contrast, the admins on the other side of the argument take the very reasonable position that Wikipedia should assume they're copyrighted if we don't know for sure.Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:56, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposal
Based on the facts I've described, the most sensible solution appears to be simply editing the template now on the images, so that it says, "This work is copyrighted (or assumed to be copyrighted) and unlicensed.". Insertion of this parenthetical should address everyone's concerns.

I have submitted the edit request at Template_talk:Non-free_fair_use_in.Anythingyouwant (talk) 10:27, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The template has now been made more accurate.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it would be very appropriate to unblock this user now. The relevant images he uploaded are still validly in use.  No one ever established that the tag he wanted to use had been validly deprecated, but in any event that tag has now been deleted.  Moreover, the current tag has now been corrected as he urged.  Please unblock.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:51, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The blocking admin (User:Fastily) is now retired, no longer has admin privileges, and says at his talk page: "I have no interest in debating a 6 month-old, resolved issue with you- particularly when I'm retired."Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:29, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have started a thread about this at ANI.Anythingyouwant (talk) 07:49, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is the archived ANI discussion. The consensus was that they would like to hear directly from the blockee.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:41, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Meir Eisenstadt
I see he is categorised with four nationalities. I saw you disscused similar with Redaktor at Akiva Eger. I am wondering if instead of having all countries as we know them nowadays, we can create new cats for the regions name at the time, eg. Category:Prussian rabbis or what have you. Agree? What region/s or countries did this rav live in? Chesdovi (talk) 23:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Category:Survivors of stabbing
Category:Survivors of stabbing, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. DexDor (talk) 04:24, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Deadly Serious Party

The article Deadly Serious Party has been proposed for deletion  because of the following concern:
 * Not a notable joke party

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. JDDJS (talk) 23:05, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Deadly Serious Party for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Deadly Serious Party is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Deadly Serious Party until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. JDDJS (talk) 00:26, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

"Verginia" article, to be changed into "Virginia"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Verginia

Would it be possible to change the title of this article ? Verginia is a wrong denomination for Virginia, which is the correct form, historically attested and confirmed. See https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1278485 and https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Talk:Q1278485

Thank you ! --Slojkine (talk) 10:00, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

The French Wikipedia article has now been changed from Verginia to Virginie. You should do the same, from Verginia to Virginia. I understand that pronunciation is the same, but think of some centuries of English literature and culture ! https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginie_(Rome_antique) --Slojkine (talk) 07:34, 20 August 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slojkine (talk • contribs)

title: User talk:Zsero


text:
Talk:Stone wall trees in Hong Kong

Untitled
According to government sources (e.g. AFCD website)  and LegCo proceedings they're known as "climbing fig" or "climbing fig trees". Binomial name is Ficus hederacea, and Chinese name is 石澗榕 or 爬牆榕. — Instantnood 20:31, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Stone wall trees in Hong Kong


text:
2004 Alabama elections

Elections were held in the U.S. state of Alabama on November 2, 2004.

title: 2004 Alabama elections


text:
Sugar, We're Goin Down

"Sugar, We're Goin Down" is a song by American rock band Fall Out Boy, released to US radio on April 4, 2005, as the lead single from their second album, From Under the Cork Tree. Two different CD singles were released with different B-sides, Part I with a green cover and Part II with a red cover. With music composed by vocalist Patrick Stump and lyrics penned by bassist Pete Wentz, the single reached No. 8 on the US Billboard Hot 100, becoming Fall Out Boy's first top-10 hit and exploding the band into the mainstream, exposing them to a new audience. It spent five weeks in the top 10 and 20 weeks in the top 20 out of its 42 chart weeks.

The song became the band's first two-million seller in July 2009, and as of February 2013, has sold 4,639,000 copies in the US. It was upgraded to a 8× platinum certification by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) in November 2023. On July 22, 2013, "Sugar, We're Goin Down" was certified silver by the British Phonographic Industry (BPI) for 200,000 sales.

Background
Stump told Rolling Stone that he deliberately slurred the lyrics in the song's chorus to make it sound better, saying that he "was trying to do a straight punk song for fun" and adding, "I saw those lyrics and just kind of barked them out. But there was something about the rhythm of it, where I was like, 'Hmm, that actually might be too good for just a shitty punk song.'" Contrary to popular belief, instead of going through thirty versions before going back to the first one, Stump clarified the song went through countless rewrites until they landed on the final version which was chosen.

The song appears on the karaoke games Lips (as downloadable content) and in Karaoke Revolution Presents: American Idol, and is also a playable song on Band Hero. It is in the 2005 film The Fog and its soundtrack. American country pop artist Taylor Swift covered "Sugar, We're Goin Down" at a concert on her 2011 Speak Now Tour in Chicago, during which she would sing a cover of a song originally released by an artist from each tour stop. Hayley Williams joined Fall Out Boy onstage in 2014 to perform the song as part of a Super Bowl Blitz show. The band themselves used a sample of the song in "What a Catch, Donnie" and referenced it in "Save Rock and Roll", from the album of the same title.

Chart performance
"Sugar, We're Goin Down" would rise and fall in inconsistent patterns. The song debuted on the Billboard Hot 100 on July 2, 2005, at No. 93 and rose each week. Eleven weeks later, on September 17, 2005, the song entered the top 10 at its peak of No. 8, becoming Fall Out Boy's first top 10 single. At this point, the song did not have much airplay but had relied on the strength of digital downloads alone, and it experienced a sales surge following the band's performance at the 2005 MTV Video Music Awards.

Following this download surge, however, downloads fell, and the song dropped to No. 15 the following week. During this time, though, mainstream radio support came in, and while downloads were falling, airplay was able to help stabilize the song. As a result, "Sugar" rose in the following weeks to be at either position No. 10 or 11. It spent five weeks in the top 10 and 20 weeks in the top 20, and in total stayed on the charts for 42 weeks before it was retired, making it the band's most successful single charting. The track peaked at No. 2 on the Hot Digital Songs chart and reached the top position on the Hot Digital Tracks chart. Its airplay peak was No. 18 on the Hot 100 Airplay chart.

On the Pop 100 chart, "Sugar, We're Goin Down" displayed a slightly better performance. With the same digital download stats, but with an airplay panel to its advantage, the song reached a peak position of No. 6 on the Pop 100 with its component airplay, Pop 100 Airplay, being No. 6. In terms of total spins versus total impressions, the single also peaked at No. 6 on the Top 40 Mainstream chart. It reached No. 3 on the Hot Modern Rock Tracks chart and became a rock-radio staple.

In the United Kingdom, the song first charted on January 15, 2006, at No. 54 before moving to just outside the top 20 at No. 24 on February 5. However, it continued rising in the charts in February, and entered the top 10 at its peak position of No. 8. As of 2013, the song has sold over 200,000 copies in the UK to date being certified silver. It remained in the top 75 of the UK Singles Chart for 21 weeks.

Music video
The official music video for "Sugar, We're Goin Down" was directed by Matt Lenski. The music video centers on a boy who has deer antlers on his head. While he is walking around, a younger boy throws a shirt at one of his antlers. While he is sitting at a cemetery and eating, a kite falls onto his antlers and a girl tries to recover it, and they become friends. The girl's father disapproves because the boy has antlers, asking him to leave his daughter alone. Frustrated, the boy decides to try to cut off his antlers with a variety of tools, but she stops him. Later, the couple goes to a bowling alley. When the girl's father sees they are still together, he tries to shoot the boy with a bow and arrow, but fails as a car rams into him. The boy tries to help him and notices that he has deer hooves for feet. The father then gives the couple his blessing. The music video also frequently cuts to scenes of the band members performing the song.

Reception and legacy
Blender ranked "Sugar, We're Goin Down" at No. 4 on their "100 Greatest Songs of 2005" list and About.com placed the song at No. 3 on their "Top 100 Pop Songs of 2005" list. It was also nominated for the Kerrang! Award for Best Single in 2006. In 2009, Phoenix New Times writer Martin Cizmar wrote that "Sugar, We're Goin Down" was possibly "the most listened-to emo track of all time".

Music critics have retrospectively considered "Sugar, We're Goin' Down" as a seminal, genre-shaping song within pop punk and emo. In 2015, Billboard ranked the song number six on their list of the 10 greatest Fall Out Boy songs. In 2020, Alternative Press called "Sugar, We're Goin' Down" one of the most influential pop punk songs of all time, stating that the song "shaped the genre," was "a lyrically abstract masterpiece that gave subsequent bands an excuse to write creatively" and that it was "a game-changer." In 2021, Kerrang ranked the song number four on their list of the 20 greatest Fall Out Boy songs. Also in 2021, Rolling Stone ranked "Sugar, We're Goin Down" at 443 on their amended list of the "500 Greatest Songs of All Time," noting that the song "signaled a sea change – emo, which had roots in confessional hardcore punk, had grown into a new and often highly theatrical kind of arena rock." Variety ranked it as one of the 25 best emo songs of all time in 2022.

Track listings
All songs were written by Fall Out Boy.

CD single
 * 1) "Sugar, We're Goin Down" – 3:51
 * 2) "The Music or the Misery" – 3:27

CD 1
 * 1) "Sugar, We're Goin Down" – 3:47
 * 2) "The Music or the Misery" – 3:27

CD 2
 * 1) "Sugar, We're Goin Down" (album version)
 * 2) "Dance, Dance" (Patrick Stump Secret Agent Remix)
 * 3) "Snitches and Talkers Get Stitches and Walkers"
 * 4) "Sugar, We're Goin Down" (video)

7-inch vinyl
 * 1) "Sugar, We're Goin Down"
 * 2) "Nobody Puts Baby in the Corner" (Acoustic version)

title: Sugar, We're Goin Down


text:
Owen Hall

Owen Hall (10 April 1853 – 9 April 1907) was the principal pen name of the Irish-born theatre writer, racing correspondent, theatre critic and solicitor, James Davis, when writing for the stage. After his successive careers in law and journalism, Hall wrote the librettos for a series of extraordinarily successful musical comedies in the 1890s and the first decade of the 1900s, including A Gaiety Girl, An Artist's Model, The Geisha, A Greek Slave and Florodora. Despite his achievements, Hall was constantly in financial distress because of his gambling and extravagant lifestyle; his pseudonym was a pun on "owing all".

Life and career
Born in a Jewish household, Hall was the eldest son of an English dentist who practised in Dublin and later became a portrait photographer in London, Hyman Davis (1824–1875), and his wife Isabella (1824–1900), whose maiden name was also Davis. The Davis family returned to London in the 1850s, and James graduated from University College London as a Bachelor of Laws in 1869. Among his eight siblings were Julia, a successful novelist under the name "Frank Danby", who married businessman Arthur Frankau and was the mother of the author Gilbert Frankau and the comedian Ronald Frankau and grandmother of the novelist Pamela Frankau and the actress Rosemary Frankau; Eliza, who was the journalist "Mrs. Aria" and long-time lover of the actor Henry Irving; Harrie (1864–1920), who became a journalist in the US; and Florence ("Florette") a novelist who married Marcus E. Collins, brother of Arthur Collins, the manager of the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane.

In the 1870s, Hall (still known as James Davis) married Esther Josephine (née Da Costa Andrade, 1854–1946) and had three children, Isabelle Davis (1877–1935), Hyman Davis (1878–1950) and Dorothy Davis (1880–1963). Isabel married Gerald Benjamin, the son of mayor Benjamin Benjamin of Melbourne, in 1912. Hyman married Helen Davis (so she didn't change surname) in 1914. Dorothy married a Belgian diplomat, Baron Marie-Georges-Gérard-Léon le Maire de Warzée d'Hermalle (1877–1931), and wrote of her travels in Persia, Peeps into Persia (1913), under the name of Dorothy de Warzée.

Early career
After practising from 1874 to 1886 as a solicitor, Hall gave up the law in favour of journalism, starting a newspaper called Pan, which "went to popularity and thence through an inexperienced direction to death", after which he "owned and edited in turn The Bat [1885–87], The Cuckoo and The Phoenix [after 1899], whilst writing industriously [and caustically] for The Sporting Times many paragraphs on ... racing, and dramatic criticisms, under the signature 'Stalled Ox'." He also wrote for Truth, The World, The Illustrated London News and the Ladies' Pictorial. He was assistant editor of Galignani's Messenger from 1888 to 1890. Hall and his sisters had been friendly with Oscar Wilde and his brother William, but Hall later became a harsh critic of Wilde. Hall was, for a time, interested in politics and ran (unsuccessfully) against the Liberal statesman Charles Russell for the Parliamentary seat of Dundalk in the 1880 election.

The change of career from critic to librettist came after he expressed a harsh view of a George Edwardes production, In Town (1892); the producer challenged Hall to do better. The result was the hit of the West End theatre season, A Gaiety Girl (1893), with music by Sidney Jones and lyrics by Harry Greenbank. Hall's satirical book included lines that jabbed in the style of an upmarket gossip columnist. The smart society back-chat was very popular with audiences, and A Gaiety Girl has a claim to being the first true musical comedy. Hall's next libretto was for An Artist's Model (1895), another success for the same writing team. He repeated the snappy dialogue style of the previous work, but joined it with a romantic plot, which Hall added at the last minute after Edwardes hired the star Marie Tempest, for whom Hall quickly wrote a new role. The result established the formula for two further extraordinary successes by Hall and his collaborators at Daly's Theatre.

The first of these was The Geisha (1896), which became the biggest international hit in musical theatre history, playing for 760 performances in its original London run and enjoying numerous international productions. The next collaboration for Hall, Jones and Greenbank was another popular work for Daly's, A Greek Slave (1898).

Hall declared bankruptcy first at the age of 29, during his early career as a solicitor, having run up debts of more than £27,000. He was back in bankruptcy court six years later, in 1888. Even after his theatrical success and high salary from Edwardes, he was bankrupt again in 1898. His constant financial trouble stemmed from his gambling and extravagant entertaining of his friends. The pseudonym "Owen Hall" was an ironic nod ("owin' all") towards his extensive debts, as was another of his pseudonyms, "Payne Nunn" ("payin' none"). His sister Eliza recalled: "As a lawyer he gave advice freely to his friends; as a racehorse owner he indulged his prodigal proclivities in the world of hangers-on; during his editorial and play-writing epochs he was lavish in his hospitality ... and he voiced his belief that he 'had enjoyed every experience except death and solvency'." She wrote that, during his bankruptcy proceedings, Hall quipped irreverently: "Now I know that my Receiver liveth". His nephew Gilbert recalled that Hall said: "You can trust me with anything except a pretty girl or a sovereign."

Florodora and later years
Hall wrote the musical Florodora (1899) for producer Tom Davis, which was set to music by Leslie Stuart, and the piece became another record-setting international hit, running for 455 performances in London, and then 552 performances in New York, followed by other international productions and revivals.

Hall wrote several more works in the new century, including two more musicals for Davis: The Silver Slipper (1901) with Stuart, and the unsuccessful The Medal and the Maid (1903) with Jones. For Edwardes, he wrote "perhaps the most delightful of all his libretti" and his last big success, The Girl from Kays (1902), and later The Little Cherub (1906). A 1904 piece was Sergeant Brue, written with Liza Lehmann.

He died in Harrogate, one day short of his 54th birthday, and was buried in Highgate Cemetery, north London,

title: Owen Hall


text:
User talk:Coldradio

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

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Good luck!

Meelar (talk) 20:32, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Coldradio


text: File:JLA 89 coverart.jpg

title: File:JLA 89 coverart.jpg


text:
User talk:Sallymcvegas

Welcome
Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! Karmafist 20:33, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
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title: User talk:Sallymcvegas


title: User:UBX/1337-1


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CNDP

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was speedy deleted by CJCurrie for patent nonsense. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) 10:24, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

CNDP
Alleged group in Saskatchewan, opposing the province's NDP government. Evidence of its existence dubious at best. The "group" (or someone claiming membership) operates a website called "nondp". A similar website surfaced in 1999, and was accused of forgery by the opposition Saskatchewan Party (click here for the cached story). CJCurrie 20:34, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete It claims to hold meetings in secret and not release names of members. What proof is there that it it exists? Ground Zero 20:44, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete This is almost certainly a hoax. Dottore So 20:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. A simple whois lookup reveals who owns (and probably operates) the nondp.com domain. Mindmatrix 21:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I see a name on the whois listing. I know I'm dim, but what does seeing the name tell me? I vote Delete anyway as this looks like a hoax or some weird unverifiable POV allegation. Tonywalton  | Talk 22:43, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Nothing, on its own. However, a judicious google search may turn up interesting links, given that info; let's see - nah, only a link to a tripod page, a tblog page, and some of his writing. He seems to like black. About the nondp.com site, he states: "A Saskatchewan politics site that I contribute to here and there." So there ya go. Mindmatrix 23:25, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete. -- Spinboy 22:50, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete nonsense. Homey 00:17, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * We seem to have consensus. Speedied.  CJCurrie 00:27, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CNDP


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christopher Gutierrez

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was speedily deleted - it's a twofer, CSD A6 and A7. FCYTravis 20:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Christopher Gutierrez
Bordering on a speedy for being an odd combination of a vanity/attack page. Joyous (talk) 20:34, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - A defamation attempt. BorgQueen 20:44, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.