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Black Condor

Black Condor is the superhero name used by three different fictional characters in the DC Comics universe. All three incarnations of Black Condor have been members of the Freedom Fighters and each has been featured in Freedom Fighters comic books published by DC Comics.

The first Black Condor, Richard Grey Jr., was created by Quality Comics writer Will Eisner and artist Lou Fine. He first appeared in Crack Comics #1 (May 1940), and continued through issue #31 (Oct 1943). He also appeared in Uncle Sam Quarterly #2 (Dec 1941).

He moved to the DC universe when DC Comics bought the rights to Quality Comics characters. The first Black Condor was a World War II era super hero along with the rest of the Freedom Fighters. The second Black Condor, Ryan Kendall, gained the power of flight due to genetic manipulation and initially did not believe he was a superhero. He would later join the Freedom Fighters, but was killed at the beginning of the Infinite Crisis storyline. The third Black Condor, John Trujillo, is of Mayan descent and was given his powers by the Mayan Spider Goddess Tocotl. Seeing himself as a protector of the universe, he joins forces with the Freedom Fighters.

Quality Comics
A Golden Age superhero who possessed the power of flight, the Black Condor was created by writer Will Eisner under the pseudonym Kenneth Lewis, and artist Lou Fine in Crack Comics #1 (cover-dated May 1940). Initially alternating with the Clock as the cover-featured character, he became the solo cover feature from issues #20-26 (Jan.-Nov. 1942). Fine drew the first 24 stories, and his feature continued to run through issue #31.

As an infant traveling with his parents on an archaeological expedition thorough Outer Mongolia, Richard Grey Jr. survived after his family was killed by the bandit Gali Kan and his men. Rescued by a condor who raised him as her own, he learned to fly, as the origin story stated, by "studying the movement of wings, the body motions, air currents, balance and levitation" of his avian siblings. A mountain hermit, Father Pierre, eventually discovered and civilized the feral child, and taught him to speak English. Richard tracked down and killed the Mongolian bandits who had killed his parents and then departed for the United States where he uncovered a plot to kill United States Senator Thomas Wright. He was too late to save Wright from assassination, and so began to use his identity. He adopted the guise of Black Condor to fight crooked politicians, rum-running bootleggers, and racketeers.

The strip was popular, and became Crack Comics' featured story starting in issue #3. In American Comic Book Chronicles: 1940-1944, Kurt Mitchell writes: "The Asian backdrop was deemphasized by the end of the year in favor of urban settings or ornately rendered lost cities, bandits and jewel thieves giving ground to mad scientists, living statues, and sentient weapons of mass destruction. Scene after scene of the Condor in flight, his lithe figure soaring across backgrounds seen from dizzying perspectives with a grace Joe Shuster's barrel-chested Superman could not hope to match, made the series irresistible".

According to Jess Nevins' Encyclopedia of Golden Age Superheroes, "Black Condor fights femmes fatale, the Eagle Battalion, Yellow Perils, Kite-Men (Japanese agents on flying kites), a Chinese mad scientist, a golem, and killer robots known as the Spinning Deaths".

DC Comics
In the DC Universe, his power was retconned to being caused by exposure to a radioactive meteor (a story which was slightly touched upon in his Quality origin). Here he met Uncle Sam and joined his group, the Freedom Fighters, and later the All-Star Squadron.

He was among a group of Golden and Silver Age heroes who helped the JLA repel an Appellaxian invasion in the JLA: Year One miniseries by Mark Waid. He appeared more recently as an ethereal "spirit guide" in the pages of Ryan Kendall's Black Condor series.

Ryan Kendall
The second Black Condor, Ryan Kendall, derived his powers of flight, telekinesis, and healing from the genetic experiments of his grandfather, Creighton. A member of an organization called the Society of the Golden Wing, Creighton and his allies had been attempting to create a man who could fly. After numerous attempts, Kendall was the only success. Kendall eventually rebelled and escaped from his grandfather, who made frequent attempts to recapture the youth in order to study and reproduce his abilities.

A mysterious telekinetic who kept to himself, Ryan Kendall was adamant when he first appeared as the Black Condor that he was not a superhero. However, time proved him wrong, and he fought alongside other superheroes, notably Primal Force and Justice League International (for a brief time). Eventually, he went to Opal City, where he felt very much at home.

In his solo adventures, Kendall sought out Hawkman in hopes of gaining insight into the role of a superhero. He helps in his battle against Karen Ramis, the Post-Zero Hour Lion-Mane.

In Infinite Crisis #1, Kendall, as part of the Freedom Fighters, was killed by a powerful beam fired by Sinestro in an ambush by the Secret Society of Super Villains.

In Nightwing #140, a mystery villain, Creighton Kendall, who gave him his powers, resurfaces in an attempt to resurrect his evil Golden Wing Society, an organization that would dispense "justice" from the skies.

In the Blackest Night crossover event, Ryan was reanimated as a member of the Black Lantern Corps.

In the pages of Dark Nights: Death Metal, Ryan is revealed to be entombed in the Valhalla Cemetery. Batman later revived him with a Black Lantern Ring.

John Trujillo
Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters #3 introduced a third Black Condor named John Trujillo whose home turf is the Arizona desert. John was given the hereditary powers of the Black Condor by Tocotl, a Mayan Spider Goddess.

Trujillo sees himself as a protector of the universe. He first appears when he single-handedly rescues Uncle Sam and the other Freedom Fighters, who had been defeated by agents of S.H.A.D.E. Trujillo is very serious and seems somewhat uncomfortable interacting with other people.

In issue #6, he rebuffs romantic overtures by the Phantom Lady, correctly (as she realizes later) assuming she does not really mean it.

The full extent of the third Black Condor's powers remains unrevealed. He can fly at extremely high speeds, control the wind, and may possess moderate superhuman strength and speed.

Powers and abilities

 * The first Black Condor has the mutant ability to fly, although no limits are known as to speed, duration or altitude. Sometime after arriving on Earth-X, it became apparent that his mutant powers also included limited telekinesis abilities, most notably mind-over-matter. At times, the Black Condor carries a ray gun, the origin of which is unknown. When used, it fires a black force beam of adjustable power capable of stunning a man or breaking a brick wall. He is a skilled hand-to-hand combatant and an Olympic level athlete.
 * The second Black Condor possessed a talent for telekinesis which he also used to fly, as well as limited empathic abilities and a rapid healing rate.
 * The third Black Condor has so far only demonstrated the abilities of flight and wind/air-current control, but has been credited by Tocotl as an elemental of the sky and Earth. He also has a moderate level of superhuman strength and speed, and seems quite ruthless.

Other versions

 * In a Bronze Age story, Mister Mxyzptlk shows Superman a gender-reversed Justice League. Amongst its members are the Black Condor, a male equivalent of the Black Canary.
 * In the final issue of 52, a new Multiverse is revealed, originally consisting of 52 identical realities. Among the parallel realities shown is one designated "Earth-10". As a result of Mister Mind "eating" aspects of this reality, it takes on visual aspects similar to the Pre-Crisis Earth-X, including the Quality characters. The names of the characters and the team are not mentioned in the panel in which they appear, but a character visually similar to the Richard Grey, Jr. Black Condor appears. Based on comments by Grant Morrison, this alternate universe is not the pre-Crisis Earth-X.
 * New Super-Man features a character named the Blue Condor (an analog of the Black Condor).
 * Multiversity: The Mastermen features an African-American Black Condor as one of Uncle Sam's Freedom Fighters.

Television
The Richard Grey Jr. incarnation of the Black Condor appears in the Batman: The Brave and the Bold episode "Cry Freedom Fighters!", voiced by Jason C. Miller. This version is a member of the Freedom Fighters.

Miscellaneous

 * An unidentified Black Condor appears in Justice League Unlimited #17.
 * The John Trujillo incarnation of the Black Condor appears in Freedom Fighters: The Ray, voiced by Jason Mitchell. This version is an openly gay member of the Freedom Fighters from Earth-X. Additionally, a non-metahuman Earth-1 incarnation makes minor appearances throughout the series.

title: Black Condor


text: File:Firefox down.jpg

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: File:Firefox down.jpg


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Emmanuel Schelstrate

Emmanuel Schelstrate (1649 – 6 April 1692) was a Catholic theologian born at Antwerp in 1649. While he was a canon of the cathedral of Antwerp, he was called to Rome by Pope Innocent IX and made an assistant librarian of the Vatican Library.

He was a fine scholar in early ecclesiastical history and became the accredited defender of the papal supremacy. For this reason his writings have often been very severely judged.

His Antiquitas illustrata circa concilia generalia et provincialia (Antwerp, 1678) contains decrees of the popes and various matters of Catholic church history; in it he attacked what he, in accord with the Church in Rome, viewed as the errors of Jean Launoy regarding the primacy of Rome. Schelstrate was only able to issue two volumes of a second edition which he had planned on a large scale (1692 and 1697). He carried on controversies with Arnauld and Louis Maimbourg concerning the authority of the general councils and of the popes; he opposed the 1682 Declaration of the Clergy of France, codifying the principles of Gallicanism. Schelstrate wrote a treatise on the origin of the Anglican Church in a controversy with Edward Stillingfleet, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, London. He published numerous other works.

He died at Rome on 6 April 1692.

title: Emmanuel Schelstrate


text: User talk:69.15.32.114

title: User talk:69.15.32.114


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User:Apoc2400

Articles I may write some day

 * Bouk reactor
 * Coulomb staircase
 * Ground State Fluctuations
 * Tape operator

Cleanup tasks

 * Beit HaShalom (POV)
 * Proton - way too short. If I have plenty of time.
 * Nagoya - strangely short and unreferenced for such a big city.
 * Parent

Quick stubs created

 * Runer Jonsson
 * Vicke Viking
 * Viola Gråsten

Article started

 * Asahi Kasei
 * Railway Technical Research Institute
 * Tokyo Metropolitan Teien Art Museum
 * New Urban Entertainment
 * Zhou Shuguang
 * Tuve landslide
 * Öland Roots
 * World Bank Oslo 2002 Protests
 * Idemitsu Kosan
 * RUAG Aerospace Sweden
 * RD-0410
 * Pointing and calling
 * Tea leaf paradox
 * Barbro Alving
 * Bang (magazine)
 * Pink Champagne
 * Samfundet De Nio
 * Artes (magazine)
 * Romashka reactor
 * Forensic Toolkit
 * Trick or Treatment
 * Nordic Gender Institute
 * International Aerospace Quality Group
 * Fujiko (actress)
 * Nemesysco
 * Women to the Top
 * Faktum, Situation Sthlm, Aluma (street paper)
 * International Network of Street Papers
 * North American Street Newspaper Association
 * Put Domoi
 * Hyperdeformation
 * Safe Affordable Fission Engine
 * SP-100
 * Peter Mew (first part)
 * Telenordia, Bredbandsbolaget, Glocalnet, Spray Network
 * Osteoblast milk protein, Milk basic protein
 * Snow Brand Milk Products
 * Street News
 * Hobo News
 * International Brotherhood Welfare Association
 * Megaphon
 * Homeless Grapevine
 * Street News Service
 * James Eads How
 * Calle Örnemark
 * Leonard Jeffries (expanded)
 * National Black United Front, National Black United Fund, Operation Crossroads Africa, Thomy Lafon
 * Junichi Watanabe, A Lost Paradise
 * Ewert Karlsson
 * German Pirate Party, Dirk Hillbrecht
 * Africa '70 (NGO)
 * David Choi
 * Anabuki Construction, Anabuki Kosan, Satoru Anabuki, Dia Kensetsu
 * The Jeepney Magazine
 * World Pride
 * Lunsford Lane
 * Working Women's Forum
 * Digitally Imported, Radioio
 * Daiwa House, Sekisui House
 * Rocket Lab
 * Heartless Bitches International
 * Kajandu
 * Steel fibre-reinforced shotcrete
 * Uri hydel
 * Copy to China
 * Zensho
 * Polarsun Automobile
 * Science and Technology Daily
 * Zaitokukai, Hantenren, Jimmin Shimbun, Aki no Arashi
 * Yokoyama Marumitsu, Tōkyūjutsu
 * Li Zhi (mathematician), Tian yuan shu
 * Tengenjutsu (fortune telling)
 * Polaris Project
 * Hanako (magazine)
 * ... plus some very short articles.

Tools I use

 * Navigation popups for quick previewing of wiki-links.
 * refToolbar, very useful for adding good references.
 * Friendly and Twinkle gives some useful buttons. Mostly useful for vandal-fighters and the like, but saves some time for me too.
 * CatScan to search inside categories.
 * this or this tool to copy images from Flickr.
 * Free Image Search Tool
 * WikiBlame to figure out who added something to an article (choose interpolated search).
 * Special:ExpandTemplates - shows the actual resulting wikicode of a template with parameters.
 * TinEye, find similar images

Quick links for myself

 * Bad references:, , Explanation: Removed bad reference. Icon Group International publishes computer-generated books, often from Wikipedia articles.

title: User:Apoc2400


text:
Talk:Middle initial

I believe social security card and official documents usually only have middle initials. Look at Gerald R. Ford, John F. Kennedy, etc.
 * Social Security Cards have full names on them. Movementarian 15:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Merge with Middle name
Bwithh 22:01, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This subject should be merged with Middle name
 * This article is already covered in the first paragraph of Middle name and should be merged. Movementarian 15:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge. This topic does not warrant a separate article. — Fingers-of-Pyrex 21:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Middle initial


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Stagecoach Express

Stagecoach Express may refer to:

 * Stagecoach Express (film)
 * Stagecoach Group

title: Stagecoach Express


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Janice MacKinnon

Janice MacKinnon, Ph.D, C.M., S.O.M., FRSC (born January 30, 1947) is a Canadian academic and former politician who served as a Member of the Legislative Assembly of Saskatchewan (MLA) from 1991 to 2001, and as Minister of Finance under New Democratic Party Premier Roy Romanow. She is currently a professor in the School of Public Health at the University of Saskatchewan.

Early life and education
Born Janice Potter in Kitchener, Ontario, she attended Huron University College of the University of Western Ontario, which awarded her a bachelor's degree in 1969. She went on to earn a master's degree and doctorate from Queen's University. She joined the University of Saskatchewan in 1975.

Political career
From 1991 to 2001, MacKinnon was a Member of the Legislative Assembly of Saskatchewan (MLA). In addition to being Minister of Finance from 1993 to 1997, she also held the following ministerial positions at various times: Minister of Social Services, Minister of Economic and Co-operative Development, Minister Responsible for Trade, Research and Investment, and Government House Leader. As Finance Minister, she was known by the nickname "Combat Barbie" for her conviction to cut spending in a bid to recover the province's finances, which were in near ruin when Grant Devine's Progressive Conservative government was swept from power in 1991.

MacKinnon resigned from the Cabinet of new NDP leader Lorne Calvert on March 2, 2001, and resigned her seat in the Legislature on September 30. David Forbes replaced her when he won a November 8 by-election. In 2003, she published a book entitled Minding the Public Purse about her time as Finance Minister and fiscal policy in Canada.

In 2003, MacKinnon was rumoured to be considering running for the Liberal Party of Canada in the following year's federal election, but she ultimately declined.

Post-political life and career
After resigning from the Saskatchewan Legislature, MacKinnon returned to teaching at the University of Saskatchewan.

She is chair of the board of directors of the Institute for Research on Public Policy. She also sits on the board of directors for the Canada West Foundation. In 2008, MacKinnon was named Chair of the Board of Investment Saskatchewan, a Saskatchewan Crown Corporation managing investment capital and financing.

MacKinnon sits as an advisor to Canada's Ecofiscal Commission.

In 2019, MacKinnon was named the chair of the Blue Ribbon Panel on Alberta’s Finances by Alberta Premier Jason Kenney. The panel's final report outlined 26 recommendations to improve Alberta's finances.

In 2023, MacKinnon was named to the first tribunal formed under the Saskatchewan First Act, which was tasked with examining the economic impact of proposed federal clean electricity regulations.

Personal life
MacKinnon is married to Peter MacKinnon, a former president of the University of Saskatchewan. They were married in 1974 and have two children.

In 2005, MacKinnon was made a Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada. In 2012, she was named to the Order of Canada. In 2013, she was named one of the Top 25 women of influence in Canada's public sector.

Selected bibliography

 * The Liberty We Seek: Loyalist Ideology in Colonial New York and Massachusetts (1983) (ISBN 0674530268)
 * While the Women Only Wept: Loyalist Refugee Women (1993) (ISBN 0773513175)
 * Minding the Public Purse: The Fiscal Crisis, Political Trade-offs and Canada's Future (2003) (ISBN 0773527494)

title: Janice MacKinnon


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Pasuruan

Pasuruan (Pasoeroean) is a city in East Java Province of Java, Indonesia. It had a population of 186,262 at the 2010 Census and 208,006 at the 2020 Census; the official estimate as at mid 2023 was 212,466 (comprising 106,294 males and 106,172 females).

It is surrounded on the landward side by, but is administratively separate from, Pasuruan Regency. On the north side it faces onto the Madura Strait. It is located around 65 kilometres southeast of Surabaya, the provincial capital.

Administrative districts
Pasuruan is divided into four districts (kecamatan), tabulated below with their areas and their populations at the 2010 and 2020 Censuses, together with the official estimates as at mid 2023. The table also includes the locations of the district administrative centres, the number of administrative villages in each district (urban kelurahan) and their names, and the postal codes.

Note: (a) except Sekargadung kelurahan (which has a postcode of 67127) and Pohjentrek kelurahan (which has a postcode of 67171). (b) Panggungrejo District created since 2010 from parts of neighbouring districts; its population in 2010 is included with that of the districts from which it was formed.

Climate
Pasuruan has a tropical savanna climate (Aw) with little to no rainfall from May to November and heavy rainfall from December to April.

Public transport
Pasuruan located and connected by provincial main road between Surabaya―Banyuwangi. Pasuruan can be reached from Surabaya by bus or local commuter train, which took at least 2 hours. It also can be reached from Malang by bus or car that took at least 1.3 hours. This town linked with other cities by Trans Java Freeway.

The city has an active railway station as a stop for intercity trains and local commuter from Surabaya Kota. To the west before Bangil railway station there's Kraton railway station which is inactive today due to close range from Pasuruan station. In the past, this city had the local steam tram company named Pasoeroean Stoomtram Maatschappij served from 1896 to 1969. This train served as passenger transport as well as freight transport of agricultural products such as sugarcane, tea and tobacco.

Sport
There are two football clubs of Pasuruan United and Persekap Pasuruan in the town and both play at Untung Suropati Stadium, which has a capacity of 5,000.

title: Pasuruan


text:
Nullifier Party

The Nullifier Party was an American political party based in South Carolina in the 1830s. Considered an early American third party, it was started by John C. Calhoun in 1828.

The Nullifier Party was a states' rights, pro-slavery party that supported strict constructionism with regards to the U.S. government's enumerated powers, holding that states could nullify federal laws within their borders. It narrowly missed claiming the unofficial title of being the first ever third party to be created within the United States—that title belongs to the Anti-Masonic Party, which was created in New York in February 1828. The Nullifier Party had several members in both houses of the Congress between 1831 and 1839. Calhoun outlined the principles of the party in his South Carolina Exposition and Protest (1828), a reaction to the "Tariff of Abominations" passed by Congress and signed into law by President John Quincy Adams. (A similar position had been staked out by the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions thirty years prior, though those Resolutions had stopped short of actually advocating nullification.)

The Nullifier Party operated almost exclusively in South Carolina. It stood in strong opposition to President Andrew Jackson. John Floyd was supported by the Nullifier Party in the 1832 presidential election, and he received South Carolina's 11 votes in the electoral college. Floyd was not a candidate and had himself unsuccessfully tried to convince Calhoun to run for President. The party's candidate for Vice President was the Massachusetts-based political economist Henry Lee. Some Nullifiers joined the newly formed Whig Party after the 1832 election, attracted by its opposition to Jackson and its depiction of Jackson as a monarch. After President Andrew Jackson left office, Calhoun and most of his followers rejoined the Democratic Party.

Notable members

 * John C. Calhoun
 * Robert Y. Hayne
 * John Floyd
 * Stephen D. Miller
 * James H. Hammond
 * William C. Preston
 * Henry L. Pinckney
 * Robert B. Campbell
 * William K. Clowney
 * Warren R. Davis
 * John Myers Felder
 * John K. Griffin
 * Francis Wilkinson Pickens
 * George McDuffie
 * Franklin H. Elmore

title: Nullifier Party


text:
Talk:Devil's Playground (2002 film)

Old discussions
The title of this movie is "Devil's Playground" not "The Devil's Playground". How do we correct this?

Page needs to be renamed to "Devil's Playground" instead of "The Devil's Playground" as noted above. I added some info to the page but don't have a login. Please rename this page.

Thanks to Tydaj for the rename! I added some more links and removed my cleanup request.

Fair use rationale for Image:Devils playground.jpg
Image:Devils playground.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Alleged Rite?
Why does this article list the rite as alleged? The documentary demonstrates it as well as Amish in the City. Moreover, there should be plenty of individuals that left the church that can speak of their experiences. Perhaps all Amish don't participate in the practice, but I didn't realized that it is not alleged to not occur at all. I would change this myself but I noticed the history page claims that this has been previously discussed on this talk page, although I don't see a discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ost316 (talk • contribs) 16:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The discussion is at Rumspringa. There's no question that some Amish youth depart from community norms. The question comes when certain pop-culture sources (this documentary, Amish in the City) put forward the idea that this rebellion is more or less institutionalized, expected, a rite of passage. So "alleged" doesn't refer to rebellious behavior, but to its identification as a rite of passage. DavidOaks (talk) 17:11, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Could the level of institutionalization be dependent on the community or congregation? Could parents who were more rebellious during their rumspringa, who are now more religiously devoted, 'institutionalize' the 'rite of passage' in their family and community? I'm curious, and I feel that the word alleged is poorly placed, and casts doubt on the integrity of the documentary. Perhaps a criticism section might be more appropriate. Arcadious (talk) 19:06, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know that integrity is at issue, but accuracy certainly is; "alleged" is used because the claims made in the film are not sustained in serious academic scholarship. DavidOaks (talk) 19:15, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * May I suggest
 * Devil's Playground is a 2002 documentary film directed by Lucy Walker which examines "Rumspringa" as experienced in some Amish communities.
 * Just the barest facts. Production company in the infobox. Problems with the film itself go in the main article, citing sources, not in the intro.
 * --Lexein (talk) 09:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Trouble is, that usage -- it seems to me -- cedes factuality and interpretive accuracy at least for the areas studied, when what's in dispute is whether any such institution exists anywhere, or whether the filmmakers were talking to highly disaffected young people. "Alleged" is standard usage for claims whose truth (or falsity) has not been established. DavidOaks (talk) 12:25, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Then I suggest "Devil's Playground is a 2002 documentary film directed by Lucy Walker which examines the notion of "Rumspringa" as expressed by a selection of young Amish." "Alleged" is dissonant with the neutral tone of a lead paragraph in this case, because the notion of "alleged" is nowhere in the film, so we, as editors, cannot introduce it. "Disputed" or "controversial" are more in keeping with WP policy when representing conflict in overall NPOV. --Lexein (talk) 13:08, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) I see it quite the opposite. To use "disputed" or controversial," we need to be able to cite someone disputing the claim or saying it's controversial. To use "alleged," we do not have to find anything in the film that says the rite is "alleged" nor do we have to find anyone who uses the term with reference to the film or to the claim. It is a neutral and non-prejudicial term which indicates that a claim has been made without taking any position on the truth of that claim. DavidOaks (talk) 17:00, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Here are acouple of cites which justify the use of "alleged." User:DavidOaks|DavidOaks]] (talk) 23:01, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Then I suggest "Devil's Playground is a 2002 documentary film directed by Lucy Walker about Amish Rumspringa as experienced by several Amish teens."  (at end of paragraph) "The film's representation of Rumspringa has been challenged.  "
 * The current use of "alleged" is inappropriate, because
 * It casts into doubt the existence of the very word Rumspringa, when the target is the representation of it by the film.
 * No source says "alleged", therefore we cannot.
 * The fact that the use of "alleged" was even questioned is some proof of its overdense coding and easy misinterpretation.
 * The film's representation of Rumspringa is disputed, therefore, we must say so and cite sources. That's how we do it. --Lexein (talk) 01:21, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * To keep things precise, there is no question that there is a sociological category "rumpspringa" -- it is a Deitsch word designating the period of adolescence when serious courtship begins. Amply sourced. Wittmer's page specifically mentions this film and "Amish in the City" as misrepresenting the phenomenon. Now, I simply do not understand your meaning in the staement ":*No source says "alleged", therefore we cannot." Perhaps you can paraphrase. We are certainly not misrepresenting things if there is a claim and counterclaim and we refuse to take a side. That is an appropriate use of "alleged." If you have a polciy on the use of the word I don't know about, please bring it forward. But it is certainly appropriate to report non-agreement on truth claims using this perfectly neurtral, even legalistic term. DavidOaks (talk) 02:32, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Help request at  WP:EAR
I have removed the word 'alleged' from  the lead. Whatever the Devil's Playground (film) documentary tries to  either prove or disprove, the Wikpedia article Rumspringa appears to  be well  documented. The use of alleged in the lead in  this context  is therefore probably  inappropriate. It may be questionable whether Rumspringa is a Right of passage ceremony, or a period of adolescence, but  it  is probably not  up  to  us to  put  our interpretation on it in  the Wikipedia. To do  so  would be possible infringement  of WP:NPOV and WP:OR.--Kudpung (talk) 09:41, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Thank you, I was planning to but real life got in the way. Rumspringa isn't a figment of someone's imagination. It may not be 'official' or universal, but it's real. Dougweller (talk) 10:00, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm going to repeat my call for precision -- the discussion here suffers from a lack of it. The claims here are really confusing -- to me at any rate. One seems to be that "alleged" refers to the word "rumspringa," -- or to the semantic field which that signifier designates? Another seems to be that it is exists, but is falsely assigned to the anthropological category of "rite of passage". We are definitely NOT putting up "our" interpretation when we cite an academic expert on the subject who notes two specific and connected facts IN the material cited: 1) there is widespread belief in x and 2) that belief is incorrect. Now, that is precisely the situation, in my understanding, which calls for the word "alleged." Please look this word up -- it does not mean "something which has been claimed but which is not true" For a second time, please bring forward any wikipolicy of which you are aware that governs the use of this word. And for the second time, please have a look at articles on subjects of contested veracity to see that the contest itself usually appears in the lead. Please do not make reference to possible infringements of WP:NPOV or WP:OR -- show what original research or POV violation occurs. DavidOaks (talk) 12:26, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

 * I'll just repeat for the sake of precision, and in language that the non-academics of semantics among our readers can understand, that  this article is about a film - it's not a platform for applying an interpretation of it. We deal with facts, and the maxim is: If in doubt, leave it out. At WP:EAR we read editors' problems, we weigh up the pros and cons from a neutral standpoint. At WP:EAR we don't analyse your articles and rewrite them for you. If need be, we see if some kind of consensus has been established. It has, and the word alleged is not wanted in the intro.--Kudpung (talk) 16:28, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Not that big a deal on the particular point, and I actually thought we were closing in on agreement, but things went wrong with some really disappointing behavior. Lexein dislikes discussion, complains, makes false statements, admin intervenes on the grounds that discussion is not needed. This consisted of two editors exchanging nine messages in 24 hours, with a third weighing in once, and then an admin deciding that this "extended" discussion is unnecessary, along with dismissive remarks on "academics" (yes, I know they're the bad guys in some views here, but is it just the fact that I'm asking people to look up the usage and meaning of words they're complaining about that earn this aspersion?) This is WP at its worst, but its fortunately pretty rare. DavidOaks (talk) 16:56, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but I did not intervene 'on the grounds that discussion is not needed' and not that it's relevant, I think I'm the only Admin is this discussion. There's nothing wrong with academics at all. If any academics have commented on the film, I'd probably be keen to use them. But I believe Wittmer is self-published and he is Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Counseling at The University of Florida (ie although he's an academic, academics specialise and this is outside his field), and I presume you know about WP:RS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 17:57, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

 * I requested editorial (not admin) assistance because I wanted a reality check, as stated. This is Wikipedia at its near best, actually, because there was no revert war, more editors weighed in, I was wrong about WP:OWN, and I put a WP:AGF sticker on my Enter key.  --Lexein (talk) 20:00, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Lead and accuracy
I'd like to have another try at this; communication broke down on the last attempt. Here's what we currently have: "Devil's Playground is a 2002 documentary film by Stick Figure Productions, directed by Lucy Walker about the Amish rite of passage called Rumspringa." Now, that inevitably implies that 1) there is a rite of passage called "rumspringa" and 2) it is characterized by attitudes and behaviors like those depicted in this film. At the very least, both assertions are in dispute (I think any reasonable review of WP:RS makes it clear that both are in fact false). What is worse, both are widely believed, and the current edit puts Wikipedia in the position of affirming popular misconception -- the very thing that causes educators so frequently to forbid its use. I am returning to this discussion because someone, in my hearing, cited this very article as "proof" that "Amish kids are allowed to do whatever they want for a year when they're sixteen, get it out of their system." I really think this is a bad thing.

Compare: "The Loch Ness Monster is a cryptid that is reputed to inhabit Loch Ness in the Scottish Highlands." Are we ok with "The Loch Ness Monster is an animal inhabiting Loch Ness in the Scottish Highlands"?

Now, numerous times in the previous discussion, I asked for an account of what was wrong with "alleged." That's the focal question I want to take up now -- what's wrong with "alleged"? It is the word regularly used for a fact-claim which is disputed. There are those who allege that the Amish have a rite of passage for adolescence, and there are those who allege that it is called rumspringa, and there are those who allege that it has the characteristics this film attributes to it. None of it is sustained by good academic sources, though it is categorically denied by -- among others -- a native informant with an academic appointment and a doctorate in a related field who is regularly called upon as an expert on this specific topic. We could entertain other word-choices as well, but the current state of the article just affirms folklore as fact. DavidOaks (talk) 17:19, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

 * DavidOaks, communication did not "break down". Editorial assistance was requested, and the matter was resolved against your personal opinion. Both assertions are made and or implied by the film's promotional materials and key personnel. Nobody is trying to push a pov that there is a rite of passage - you persist in insisting that by your definition of rite there is no such rite.  In fact, the term rite of passage is used as a figure of speech, not as an anthropological or historically rigorous classification.  Figures of speech are a common shorthand way of notionally suggesting a broad classification.  Falling off a bicycle, one's first kiss, and first communion (for Catholics) are all rites of passage, in difference senses of intentionality vs deliberateness, as well as different life-phase emotional vs life-choice gravity. None of that is important, since the article is about the film, and its representations of itself. Your personal dispute and issues with this article have been discussed at length, and have been resolved peacefully.  I get that it galls you.  You're certainly permitted to (and you have) devote a paragraph to the "scholarly" (non-in-field-opinion-by-a-self-published-author) disputation of the film/director's assertions about itself, but it does not merit stating in the lead, because per MOS:LEAD, the lead should address primarily the subject of the article itself.
 * With that as background,

 * 1) You ask, "what's wrong with the word alleged". This has been specifically addressed as vague: who alleges, what is specifically, narrowly alleged, and it's inherent POV bias by introduction of a supposed alleger.  You rejected many, many attempts at rephrasing with and without the word "alleged" until it required the intervention of editorial assistance. Now, as a former President once said, "There you go again."  You even rejected removal of the words "rite of passage" and their replacement with any alternate phrase. Without being clear at any point, you seem to be trying to force the word Rumspringa out of the lede, and/or forcing it in and declaring that it's controversial, and I'm calling you out on it.
 * 2) I ask, "what's so great about the word alleged?"  Who does it help?  You have, seriously, acted quite dedicated to the word, and dedicated to introducing debate and controversy, rather than straightforward description of the film, smack in this article's opening paragraph.  This directly violates WP:UNDUE.

--Lexein (talk) 19:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for responding. Don't care about my personal opinion, care about accuracy of the encyclopedia. Now, this is the first time you've explained that the use of "rite of passage" here is a "figure of speech." Thanks, that gets us moving. I have a problem with using technical terms non-literally as part of a definition. As a point of policy, I think it's a really, really big mistake. I also have a problem with representing a claim which ARE disputed (and that fact is amply documented) without qualification as to their factuality, again, especially in the lead. Have a look again at the NEssie analogue; I think it's apt. Now, about "rite" -- I don't recall making reference to "MY" definition of the term. I don't have one. I'm using the one anthropolgists use. Since it is a technical term in anthropology, I think that's the way to go. The problem is that the "figurative" meaning in this case is IN OPPOSAITION to the technical meaning, with the result that institutionalization is implied. But we are finally actually addressing the issue, and I am truly and non-ironically grateful for it.  It's what I've been after all along. I thank you just as sincerely for finally addressing the question of the word "alleged" -- I've been asking that for a long time too. It's easily solved. We can say that the film alleges there is such a rite of passage. Or if we find that the allegation is not in fact made, we remove the phrase rite of passage. Because in that case, the incorrect usage of the term is not even sustained by the proposition that the claim was made in the film. I still think that alleged is the right word, although as I said, we can try "widely-believed" as well. "Disputeed" works. Shall we try that? I continue to work on this because I care about accuracy and about the larger project, as I'm sure you do too. DavidOaks (talk) 20:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I"m "Trying to force the word rumpspringa out of the lead"? Whatever gave you that idea? Not at all. It would be a strange thing to do, since that is the subject of the film. Thanks for the oppportunity to clear that up -- what a huge misapprehension you've been laboring under. I think that could explain an awful lot. DavidOaks (talk) 20:13, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Misquoting other editors doesn't help: the complete quote is "you seem to be trying to force the word Rumspringa out of the lede, and/or forcing it in and declaring that it's controversial" without attribution. None of those actions is appropriate for the lede: Wikipedia should neither appear to endorse without attribution, nor declare controversial without attribution, nor deprecate without attribution.  Any controversy over Rumspringa itself belongs, seriously, in that article, not this one. Controversy about the film may belong in this article. --Lexein (talk) 21:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Please be a bit more careful about attributing motive, and maybe read a little more carefully? I have been clear from the beginning that there's nothing controversial about the existence of a semantic category called in some places "rumspringa," as there is no question there is a sematic field designated by "Loch Ness Monster." To go into the controversies over the realities of the status-phase in this article would indeed be WP:Coatrack. However, one more time, the article Protocols of the Elders of Zion describes it as "purporting" to detail an account of the Jewish conspiracy to achieve world domination. We do not introduce it as an "account of the Jewish conspiracy" etc.  DavidOaks (talk) 22:08, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

(outdent)I really don't understand the vitriol -- I'm dedicated to introducing controversy, with italics no less? I'm trying to REACH CONSENSUS (rather than calling in enforcement, as was done on me for much less obstyreporousness) about a way to achieve accuracy here, both to the film and to the subject it treats. It seems to me that you're just not perceiving that there's a problem at all, and that's why I'm still working on it. I'm gonna try another analogy -- would you think the lead sentence to JFK (film) is improved by deleting the bolded word?

JFK is a 1991 American film directed by Oliver Stone. It examines the events leading to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and alleged subsequent cover-up, through the eyes of former New Orleans district attorney Jim Garrison (played by Kevin Costner).

I don't, because the thesis of the film is a matter of controversy. DavidOaks (talk) 20:29, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

 * WP:AGF - do not label discussion vitriol unless angry words are used.
 * Please read WP:Beware of the tigers - it applies both to passionate editing, and observer bias.
 * Desist in mischaracterising (click and read) WP:Editor assistance as "enforcement".  Believe me EA is absolutely not enforcement of anything: it is in fact supposed to be thoughtful further discussion informed by (click and read)WP:Five Pillars, (click and read)WP:Policy, (click and read)WP:Guidelines, (click and read)WP:Essays and occasionally (click and read)WP:ARBCOM decisions  about what constitutes a good article and (click and read)(here) good lead paragraph.  It is part of the dispute resolution process, as listed in WP:DISPUTE. You may of course persist in your belief about enforcement, but it will tend to be broadly, and pointedly discouraged, and not only by me.
 * Your quote of JFK (film) is illuminating, because it uses the word alleged in uncoded, clear (no long chain of modifiers) prose. I would swap the words "subsequent" and "alleged", but still, its object is clear in context; furthermore, the allegation, and the alleger, are portrayed in the film.  In Devil's Playground, no controversy or allegations are addressed, stated, implied, promoted or otherwise. That's why neither controversy or allegations belong early in the lede at all. If there is a controversy section, it should be late in the article, and therefore late in the lede - any other placement is (click and read)WP:UNDUE, because the article is first and foremost about the film.
 * In the sense that a religion is involved, and that reliable sources are required in referring to that, it's worth assessing the words "rite of passage." Will you address the three prior suggestions above which remove the words "rite of passage" from the lede and article? I've copied them here, numbered.
 * "Devil's Playground is a 2002 documentary film directed by Lucy Walker which examines "Rumspringa" as experienced in some Amish communities."
 * "...which examines the notion of "Rumspringa" as expressed by a selection of young Amish."
 * ... about Amish Rumspringa as experienced by several Amish teens." (at end of paragraph) "The film's representation of Rumspringa has been challenged.", and this new suggestion:
 * ... about the experiences of several Amish teens in the process of deciding whether to remain in or leave their Amish communities and faith."
 * And finally, about spelling, and this really is gentle humor: "Ladies and gents, there's no 'rump' in Rumspringa, at least there's not supposed to be!" Badum dum tshhhh.  We're here all week, folks.
 * --Lexein (talk) 21:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Any of the first three would be an improvement over the present state, which asserts as fact something which is at least disputed, if not false. These were the subject of earlier and abruptly truncated discussion. While it was never my purpose to remove the word "rumspringa" from the lead, I think the fourth suggestion is the strongest, as it solves the key problem of having a lead which validates the folk-understanding of this status-phase.DavidOaks (talk) 21:58, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

 * ✅ - I'm happy with #4. This avoids a whole bunch of quotation, attribution, and bringing up of controversy in the lede. The word Rumspringa is mentioned in the film, (see below) but not exhaustively, and only by way of introduction, and it's seen to have various interpretations among the Amish, noncontroversially. So, are we cool? --Lexein (talk) 22:09, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Voice of Wikipedia
It's important that the "voice" of an article be the voice of the sources, not that of Wikipedia itself, or of any particular editor. If there is a dispute between sources, that it be spelled out either in the text, citing both sources, or in a footnote, citing both sources. Wikipedia is not a WP:Battleground. I've moved the comment about "The scholarship on the subject does not support this view of a normative rumspringa" (unexplained lowercase r) out of the synopsis to very acceptable footnote, where it still needs a supporting citation. This may indeed be worthy of a sentence such as:
 * Though the film's introductory title card makes mention of rumspringa as a capitalized word as if it were a standalone concept,[1] or notional rite of passage (figure of speech), and as a period or time, and some interviewed Amish use the word contemporaneously with the notion of a time of "running around" before or while choosing to stay or leave the community and faith,[2][3] some researchers (one, passionately so) dispute the elevation of the notion to any sort of literal "time of fooling around" in which rules of Amish behavior are suspended.[4][5][6]

Note, that if we say "some", we should cite at least three. See below. --Lexein (talk) 22:43, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

 * I erred in the draft proposal above - no need for a controversy section. The phrase "rite of passage" was inserted, unsourced, by the article's originating editor at its creation in 2004; it's not in the film, nor is it implied there, and 3rd party sourcing can't change that. It's not harmless either: this article had an unsourced phrase in its lede which may have contributed to the ongoing public misperception of the film and its subject - that's very annoying. --Lexein (talk) 21:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

 * We need to mention Rumspringa, and something like this would work except for the 'passionately so' unless we can source that - as it stands it appears to be OR. Dougweller (talk) 06:42, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Agreed (see Usage in the film, below). As for 'passionately so', you're right - I struck the whole thing anyways, as noted above. --Lexein (talk) 21:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Usage in the film
I watched the film, took screengrabs, and transcribed key parts to address significant issues. One interview subject defines it (italics per WP:MOS): and two interview subjects use it plainly:
 * 1) The phrase "rite of passage" is never used in the film, nor any variant of it.
 * 2) The word rumspringa is used in interviews and in intertitles, where it is lowercase (except at the beginning of a sentence), and italicized as a foreign language word, but it is not used to imply a rite of passage, nor declare any official status upon the word. The film makes no statement that kids are encouraged to go "running around," it just documents a few who do so.
 * 0:02:02 "When Amish children turn 16 they begin a period known in Pennsylvania Dutch as rumspringa. They are released from Amish restrictions and can explore the "english" [sic] world." 0:02:14  "Rumspringa lasts from a few months to several years, until a young person can decide whether or not to join the Amish church."
 * 0:12:29 (subtitle) "During rumspringa, boys will often drive cars and dress "english". [sic]
 * 0:17:21 "Throughout his rumspringa Faron has been using and dealing 'crank'..."
 * 0:49:48 "The Amish allow a rumspringa tradition known as "bed courtship".
 * 0:15:31 Man: "Rumspringa, literally translated, means running around. It's a time for the youth to attend their parties and do those kinds of things." [0:15:46:] "This rumspringa is a time during which a person needs to make his individual choice as to whether he will follow Jesus Christ or not, and he cannot make that decision until he is accountable, which is generally accepted as being over the age of 16."
 * 0:22:40 Gerald: "Most kids live at home with their mom and dad during their rumspringa."
 * 1:12:30 Faron: "I don't know if I'm still rumspringa or... I don't know what I am."

As used, rumspringa seems only to refer to activity during a period of time, and its lowercase usage is informal; nothing official or rite-like. It's used casually, in the way we run around (lowercase) doing errands during lunch; these aren't Errands (capital E), they're just errands. It's italicized in the film, which matches WP:MOS (both words as words and foreign language words). Including rumspringa in the article without editorializing solves all WP:UNDUE emphasis beyond its usage in the film. Here's the next suggested lead paragraph:
 * ... about the experiences of several Amish youths deciding whether to remain in or leave their community and faith while rumspringa ("running around" in Pennsylvania Dutch). The film follows a few Amish teenagers in LaGrange County, Indiana who enter the "english" world and experience partying, drinking, illegal drugs, and pre-marital sex. Some teens in the film profess that they will eventually become baptised as adults in the Amish community; a few do not. If they are baptized, then leave, they will be shunned by family and friends; one girl experiences this.

I checked the following sources. Their definitions align with the text of the film; the first book criticizes its tone and emphasis. The second book was based on research and interviews done for the film plus additional and re- interviews.
 * Growing up Amish: The Teenage Years. Richard A. Stevick, 2007. p. 152. This was suggested for further reading by Amish in America: What is Rumspringa?
 * Rumspringa: To Be Or Not to Be Amish Tom Shachtman, 2006. p 11. Review (positive) Interview
 * Amish Grace: How Forgiveness Transcended Tragedy Donald B. Kraybill, Steven M. Nolt, David L. Weaver-Zercher - 2010. p. 162
 * Dug Down Deep: Unearthing What I Believe and Why It Matters Joshua Harris - 2010. p. 2.

Other RS welcome. --Lexein (talk) 21:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

The new proposed lead seems good to me, except that the phrase "While rumpspringa" might be better rendered as "during the period known as 'rumspringa'" while the English translation may be treatedas a participial phrase (has equally the form of a gerund) that's not the case for the Deitsch. DavidOaks (talk) 22:35, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

 * That was the only part that looked awkward. Glad you're on board. --Lexein (talk) 23:15, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:FILM Assessment
Per a request at WikiProject Film/Assessment, I have reviewed this article to determine if it should be upgraded from Start class. As the article only consists of the synopsis and reception, I don't believe this qualifies for C class. I would recommend adding additional details such as production, home media, splitting off the awards from the reception into a separate accolades section, and including any other relevant details that are available about the documentary. Consider taking a look at the WikiProject Film/Spotlight articles for ideas for expansion. With further sourcing and expansion, this article can be upgraded to C class. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 21:27, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks - that's some advice we can use. --Lexein (talk) 22:38, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Devil's Playground (2002 film)


text:
St. Anastasia Island

St. Anastasia Island (остров св. Анастасия, ostrov Sv. Anastasiya, formerly called Bolshevik Island, остров Болшевик) is a small Bulgarian island in the Black Sea. It is located in the Gulf of Burgas, 1.5 km off the coast near Chernomorets, at 12 metres above sea level, and covers a territory of one hectare. The island is built of volcanic rocks. It is the only inhabited island off the Bulgarian Black Sea Coast.

The island is supplied with electricity and drinking water. It is named after the former St. Anastasia convent located on it. The convent had existed since the Middle Ages and was reconstructed during the 18th-19th century. It has been abandoned since 1923, when the island was transformed into a prison.

In 1925, a group of 43 political prisoners (communists and anti-fascists), led by Teohar Bakardzhiev, revolted and escaped from the island, subsequently fleeing to the Soviet Union. In their honor, the island was renamed Bolshevik Island when the communists came into power in 1945. Bulgarian film director Rangel Valchanov based his 1958 film On The Small Island ("На малкия остров") on this event.

A Bulgarian Burgas-based weekly newspaper, Factor, reported in 2006 that the Movement for Rights and Freedoms leader, Ahmed Dogan, visited the island and expressed desire to privatize it. The Bulgarian Orthodox Church, however, which claims the island is its property, objected.

Today, in addition to the monastery with its church, there is a lighthouse situated on the island, as well as a museum, a restaurant, a small quay, a conference hall and two guesthouses with a total of five rooms available to tourists. In the summer, the island is accessible from Burgas via boat services running back and forth multiple times a day.

title: St. Anastasia Island


text:
Perfect Pie

Perfect Pie is a play written by Judith Thompson, and first staged at Toronto's Tarragon Theatre in 2000, with Judith Thompson also directing.

The assistant director for the original production was Caroline Azar. The original cast starred Nancy Palk (Patsy), Tara Rosling (Young Patsy), Sonja Smits (Francesca), and Liisa Repo-Martell (Marie - Francesca's original name). Music for the production was composed and performed by Bill Thompson.

The story concerns the childhoods of Patsy and Marie and the impact it had on their later lives. Much of the dialogue is centered on their prom night when Marie was abused by more than one boy. The play deals with a number of complex themes, such as child abuse and rape.

The play was originally written as a monologue in 1993. It was published in book form by Playwrights Canada Press on September 1, 2000.

Film adaptation
In 2002, it was adapted by Judith Thompson into the film Perfect Pie, directed by Barbara Willis Sweete and starring Wendy Crewson, Barbara Williams, Rachel McAdams, Alison Pill, and Tom McCamus.

Publishing history

 * Judith Thompson, Perfect Pie, Playwrights Canada Press, 1 September 2000, ISBN 978-0-88754-590-0

title: Perfect Pie


text:
Talk:Saves the Day

a few changes
i didnt really agrea that saves the day is emo. i mean yeah some of there older stuff may be a little emo. like im sorry im leaving, or stay what you are. but according to what emo has become, and is known as now, i dont see them as a full on emo band. emotional lyrics yes, not an emo band. they change as the years go on so i specified the change. pop punk early on, indie rock now days.

i also did not agrea with Sefler being there allias. they are not "also" known as Sefler, they are "formerly" known as Sefler. so i changed there "also known as" section to "S.T.D."

i made few other past member specifications as well. also a few other small details that were incorrect.

Waymankyle (talk) 02:05, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Lineup
i have updated saves the days lineup. i added rivera as the new drummer, explained him replacing spencer. hasnt been an official anouncment that that took place but i know thats how it is so i put it on there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Waymankyle (talk • contribs) 00:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Objectivity
I've added an npov (Neutral Point of View) tag to this entry as I believe some of the content carries a biased and opinionated tone. Rmpacheco I'm going to work on editing this. If there's anything you guys think needs immediate correction, do tell. Bittersky 19:58, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Drugs
What possible evidence is there that members of the band use drugs? Shouldn't Wikipedia deal in facts and not repeat rumors? Agreed, this article seems to have quite alot of opinionation and speculation. --CalPaterson 11:57, 23 October 2005 (UTC) I agree with the two above commenters. Whoever wrote that line about drug use needs to cite an interview or other credible source. Listen to In Reverie and tell me they weren't high on something... Chris sounds a bit strange, buts its just a change of sound, maybe put it is a rumor, they have used drugs for the album, but dont say its true, as long as you say its a rumor and not confirmed it seems acceptable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.65.47 (talk) 19:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect Band Members
Mr. Humperdinkle is not the bass guitarist for Saves the Day. Blacky McCry Gaylord never played guitar in the Band.

Sound the Alarm & Vagrant
I updated this page with the news about their re-signing to Vagrant and the release date for Sound The Alarm. If anyone feels the need to tidy my edits up, please feel free.

Picture
I uploaded a promo pic from Vagrant's website (http://www.vagrant.com/vagrant/bands/bands.jsp?rec_num=18&release_id=130) to replace the old one, which was old and didn't include some of the band's current line-up.AHMYBRAIN 23:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Who is who?
Which band member is which in the photo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Emo?
I wouldnt classify STD as emo. They are more Post-Hardcore/post-punk, Indie Rock. But their releses from this decade signify a turn to more pop-punk than post-hardcore. I think that the emo tag should be removed. Iii9ix3 22:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur.

I disagree. I have always classified them as an emo/indie/punk band.

I also disagree. Their image is emo, their overall sound is emo, their lyrics are emo, their music videos are emo, and their fans are emo. Why, then, are they not emo? Arkyopterix 20:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

 * They were emo back when the emo term described Dashboard, Sunny Day and The Promise Ring, before all these black haired twats took it over. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.151.94.181 (talk) 17:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

I agree that they should not be classified as emo, and I also agree with the above unsigned post. I would have classified Saves the Day as emo back in the late 90s or early 00s, but since then the word "emo" has been muddled to become an "ambiguous, controversial slang term" (according to Emo (slang)). The average person associates the word "emo" with this new ambiguous meaning rather than what it once was, or as the Emo (music) article puts it, "popular culture appears to have embraced the terms of 'emo' far beyond its original intentions." (Colinsweet 22:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC))

Their early stuff could be classed as Emo and their album from last year "Sound the alarm", what i've heard from "Under the boards" so far doesn't sound emo though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.65.47 (talk) 17:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Saves The Day are POP-PUNK, and that's that. And as far as emo image in concerned, there is no such thing. Thanks, have a nice day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.4.8 (talk) 00:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

You guys would qualify as being gay and borderline retarted. - They're post-punk, not "pop-punk." --Omair00 (talk) 07:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

They are not in any way post-punk. They are Pop-Rock/Power Pop/Pop-punk. With the way wikipedia uses emo to describe waves of entirely different genres, emo fits too. 24.63.46.64 (talk) 12:04, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

trying to edit history
i tryed to edit the history and it came out all screwed up for some reason. i had to edit it because in truth, "im sorry im leaving" EP was released january 1st, 1998 which was BEFORE Can't Slow Down which was released August 17th, 1998. I tryed to edit it to make it say that im sorry im leaving came first and it came out all screwed up.

-but isil came out AFTER csd. fans really liked "three miles down" so chris conley made the ep.

Editing and Revisions
This whole article will require a serious review. There are numerous broken and poorly composed sentences, incorrect or inconsistent use of tense and other grammatical errors too numerous to mention.

"Using mid-1990s melodic hardcore groups, such as Lifetime, as their main influences, Saves the Day (Jersey's Second Best Dancers), along with the help of Chris Conley's lyrical writing ability, performed originally in the New Jersey hardcore scene under the original name of Sefler."

The above is a good example of the poor quality of this article, this quote is quite simply a run-on sentence.
 * I agree. The article is unsalvageable, but it's not in great shape. I don't have time at this moment, but perhaps I'll take a better look at it soon and try to make it a bit better. Of course, I encourage any and all editors to do the same. -- Kicking222 00:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Article Rewrite
Hey everyone. I've taken a crack at rewriting the bulk of the article. Hopefully it's good enough that we can remove the tags now. I couldn't find an accurate timeline of the band's lineup for each album, so there's quite a bit of that information missing from the article. I also plan to spruce up the discography sections as soon as I get a chance. Tdogg241 18:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Chris Conley
Is there any reason why the Chris Conley link redirects here?

I don't think so, it'll revert back

I see it has been reverted back, and then back again whie I was blocked, citing sockpuppetry (a little bit hard since I was blocked!). lol. He haqs not even discussed his changes here, so rather than just enter a pointless edit war i'll drop a line by an admin and see if we can get this sorted out. Eusebeus is obviously trying to make a WP:POINT, however he has already been warned about this dispute. R:128.40.76.3 09:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Also known as Sefler
I don't think this is accurate. Sefler was their original band name, before they changed it so Saves the Day. I think this should be taken out of Background Info, or at least changed to "formerly known as", or something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.237.234.127 (talk) 18:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Per the infobox template, the "alias" field is for "listing official stage names for the act." Since Saves The Day performed under the name Sefler before changing their name, this is a valid use for the field.  The article bio itself clarifies that it was their former name.  Tdogg241 (talk) 00:24, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Not power pop
These guys are just not power pop at all. Just because they are powerful it doesnt make them power pop, it seems to be given to any music which is reasonably powerful. Think about this for example, westlife are pop and they are powerful but theyre not power pop, and in a similar way, saves the day is not power pop. loveyourfaithLoveyourfaith (talk) 22:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree.--Omair00 (talk) 20:12, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

i think we would be best leaving out genre for the main article and in the lead we state they are a rock band which is accurate due to their music has spanned a lot of styles over time: indie, melodic hardcore, emo, pop punk, punk rock etc it would just be easier to leave genre out of the infobox then no fighting over it. not to mention power pop and post punk cant sum up all their music loveyourfaithLoveyourfaith (talk) 12:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Daybreak?
Why did somebody already delete the Daybreak page when it's an album coming out this year? --Reezy (talk) 02:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Something about not enough information or stuff, I agree they should keep it. I still don't know when its being released, conley said it should be done by christmas but i think it could be before loveyourfaithLoveyourfaith (talk) 13:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I see its there again, but only to redirect back to the main band article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.65.47 (talk) 23:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If any of you return, or anyone else reads this, you may now understand why a future album page was removed or redirected. It's now 18 months later and they're yet to even record it. kiac.  (talk-contrib) 01:40, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Thomas Hunter
I can find no proof that Thomas Hunter has joined the band. Also, there is no indication if this is the same Thomas Hunter formerly of Forgive Durden or a different person altogether, since the name link just goes to a disambiguation page. Anyway, I'm removing his name from the list until someone can actually provide proof that a Thomas Hunter has joined the band. Tdogg241 (talk) 21:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

--He didn't join. He was just a tour guitarist for their Australia shows immediately following David's departure. Once that tour was over, he was gone.76.98.249.213 (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

New lineup? New picture?
Does anyone know if the band has released a picture with the new lineup? If so, that would be quite beneficial to the article seeing as Chris Conley is the only current member pictured here at present. 38.103.85.75 (talk) 06:13, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * We have to use images that are copyright-free, or posted on Flickr with usage permitted. Photos the band releases, like promos, are generally owned by someone and can thus not be used. Since they're not playing at the moment, it's a bit hard to get an updated picture! kiac.  (talk-contrib) 12:37, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

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Libel
Um I remember the allegation. He smoked pot with a 16 year old and then 20 years later they dated. Then he drunk texted the dude after. So he was in his mid 30s at the time of the abuse (drunk texts). 2600:1001:B108:8CEE:6448:B192:7A75:F347 (talk) 23:23, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saves the Day


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City Centre (Miskolc)

Miskolc City Centre is basically the historical part of the city of Miskolc, Hungary. Most of the other parts of the city were either independent towns and villages previously, or they were built later.

Many of the characteristic buildings of Miskolc can be found in the city centre, although the most famous ones, like the castle of Diósgyőr or the Cave Bath of Lillafüred are outside of it.

Széchenyi street
The most significant street of the city is the István Széchenyi street, which is a continuation of the Bajcsy-Zsilinszky street leading to Tiszai station. Széchenyi street runs through the Downtown and through most of the city from east to west. The part of the street between the Szinvapark shopping mall and City Hall Square was pedestrianized in the early 1980s, except for the Miskolc trams. This part is colloquially called "Main street". Most of the houses on both sides are from the late 19th century, built after the Great Flood, which destroyed most of the downtown.

Some regard Hungary Széchenyi street as the longest main street in Europe—but this is inaccurate, since Széchenyi street itself is only about 1 km long, and even in Miskolc several streets are many times longer. It is, however, one of nine streets that, as straight continuations of each other, form the longest (about 12 km) street of the city. These are (East to West): Bajcsy-Zsilinszky street – Széchenyi street – Hunyadi street – Tizeshonvéd street – Győri kapu – Andrássy street – General Ernő Kiss street – Árpád street – Hegyalja street. This long street runs nearly the length of the city, including the city centre and historical Diósgyőr, and is crossed by over 100 minor streets, but in common speech only Széchenyi street is called main street.

Significant buildings of the street include:

 * Rákóczi house: a Baroque building that was headquarters to Francis II Rákóczi during the revolution in the early 18th century. Today it houses the Gallery of Miskolc. The Dark Gate, one of the old town gates is next to it.
 * National Theatre of Miskolc: a neoclassical building constructed in 1857 in place of a previous one that burnt down. The International Opera Festival of Miskolc is organized here annually. The Theatre Museum can be found on Mrs Déry street, which connects Széchenyi street to Heroes Square.

 * Villanyrendőr ("traffic signal", though literally meaning "electric policeman") is a name of the crossing where Széchenyi street meets Kazinczy street. It got this name because it was the first place in the city where traffic lights were installed. Since the main street had been pedestrianized, traffic is not as heavy here as it used to be.

Near Villanyrendőr and the Szinva stream, parallel to Széchenyi Street is the newest public square of the city, the Szinva Terrace.

The shopping quarter of the city is found in the vicinity.

City Hall Square and St. Stephen Square

City Hall Square is to the north of Széchenyi street, at its eastern end. The city hall (built in Romantic style) and the neoclassical county hall can be found here, along with a not really pretty Széchenyi statue.

St. Stephen Square is opposite to City Hall Square.

Elizabeth Square
Elizabeth Square (Erzsébet tér) is south from Széchenyi street. South from it is the Avas hill with the gothic Protestant church on it. The church is the oldest building of Miskolc proper (15th century). The carousel from the belfry next to the church can be heard even in City Hall Square.

The Elizabeth Bath, the first Kossuth statue of the country and a fountain can be found on this square too.

The oldest building of the Ottó Herman Museum is also not very far. It houses the mineral collection of the museum.

Deák square
Deák square is north from Széchenyi street and northwest from Heroes Square. Its famous buildings are the newly renovated building of the forestry office, the Gyula Feledy Gallery, a statue of József Lévay, and a Greek Orthodox church built between 1785 and 1806 with the largest iconostasis of Central Europe and the largest Greek Orthodox church museum of the country.

Heroes' Square
Heroes' Square (Hősök tere) is north from Széchenyi Street and Villanyrendőr. It has a monument dedicated to the heroes of the 1956 revolution (before the end of the Socialist era a monument of the Soviets stood on the square.) The square is bordered by 19th and early 20th century buildings: the Baroque Minorite church and the Ferenc Földes High School from north, the Postal Palace from east, the Synagogue of Miskolc from south (though its entrance is on Kazinczy street leading towards Széchenyi street) and the building of the Gergely Berzeviczy Secondary School from west.

The complete refashioning of the square started in the spring of 2006.

Mindszent (All Saints) square
The square is surrounded by three large buildings: the Mindszent Church, the International Trade Center (the Communist party headquarters before 1990), and the national health insurance company building. The Baroque style church, several centuries ago, was the church of a small village called Mindszent ("All Saints"), which the city has since absorbed. The Baroque statue, Mary with the jar can be found here too.

Búza tér (Wheat square)
Búza tér is one of the main traffic hubs of the city. It has the largest bus station of the city; several bus lines have their end station here, both city and country buses. The largest marketplace of Miskolc can be found here too.

Népkert
Népkert (literally: "People's Garden") is the largest public park in the Downtown (cca 57 000 m2). Its highlights include the restaurant Népkerti Vigadó, the statue park and the first Queen Elisabeth statue of the country. The city's sport hall and the country library are next to the Népkert. On the other side of the road—which is the western border of Népkert—are two important buildings: the Kós House and main building of the Ottó Herman Museum.

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Attack of the Killer Tomatoes (TV series)

Attack of the Killer Tomatoes is an American animated television series based on the 1978 film Attack of the Killer Tomatoes and its 1988 sequel Return of the Killer Tomatoes. The series aired on Fox Kids from 8 September 1990 to 23 November 1991. Repeats aired on Fox in 1992 and 1996, and on Fox Family from 1998 to 2000.

The show, a sequel to the original film, is about mad scientist Dr. Putrid T. Gangreen and his associate Igor Smith turning the tomatoes in the town of San Zucchini into monsters. The evil doctor was battled by young Chad Finletter, and his friends Tara Boumdeay (secretly a human/tomato hybrid pretending to be a teenage girl) and F.T., a "Fuzzy Tomato" pretending to be a dog. The second season is known for being the first Saturday Morning cartoon series to be computer-animated.

Ownership of the series passed to Disney in 2001 when Disney acquired Fox Kids Worldwide, which also includes Marvel Productions.

Origin
The original film Attack of the Killer Tomatoes was released by Four Square Productions in 1978. A parody of the giant menace movies of the 1950s, it became a cult hit and predated the movie-spoofing disaster film Airplane! by two years.

The Killer Tomatoes might have remained in that genre had it not been for an unlikely intervention from an equally unlikely source. During the 1986–1987 season of Muppet Babies, there was a segment in the episode "The Weirdo Zone" upon which Baby Fozzie deals with how he once faced an 'Attack of the Silly Tomatoes'. The segment used clips from the movie and concluded with Baby Fozzie using a giant-sized ketchup bottle to capture the Silly Tomatoes (he told bad jokes and the large tomatoes launched themselves at him, only to be caught inside the bottle when he ducked out of the way). It became one of the higher-rated episodes of the season, so much that New World Pictures (the owner of Marvel Productions, which made Muppet Babies) approached Four Square about making a sequel to Attack of the Killer Tomatoes.

Four Square had never intended to make a sequel but when New World approached them with a two-million dollar budget towards filming a potential sequel, John De Bello, Costa Dillon and Stephen Peace got to work on crafting a script. The resulting film, Return of the Killer Tomatoes, was a surprise success.

New World was pleased with the results, and the company decided to duplicate the results of the film with an animated series aimed at a younger audience. Tweaking various characters and ideas from both Attack and Return, Attack of the Killer Tomatoes: The Series was born and debuted as one of the first Saturday morning cartoons on the Fox Children's Network in the fall of 1990.

There were many inside jokes to popular television series and movies that played out during the series' run. It often poked fun at itself or its low-budget film origins.

Plot
The series picks up five years after The Great Tomato War (much as the film Return of the Killer Tomatoes did), where tomatoes are banned. However that has not stopped Dr. Putrid T. Gangreen from engaging in his experiments. Gangreen's ultimate goal is to rule the world and he will not let anyone stop him. But his most successful experiment may very well be his undoing. Tara Boumdeay, a tomato turned human, runs away from Gangreen, taking along her "Brother", the fur-covered F.T., whom she passes off as a dog. They befriend Chad Finletter (nephew of the Great Tomato War veteran, Wilbur Finletter) who, after saving the pair from a tomato attack, gets Tara a job at his uncle Wilbur's Tomatoless Pizza Parlor. She shares their secret with Chad regarding the two of them being tomatoes and Chad vows to help them against whatever Gangreen has planned. That is where everyone stands at the start of the first episode, "Give A Little Whistle", where the evil Doctor sets his new plans into motion (and would continue through the first season).

Season Two would center on Gangreen actually conquering the world in the debut episode. However, he is overthrown by Zoltan and his gang of twice-mutated tomatoes and is forced to join up with Chad, Tara, Wilbur and the rest of the Killer Tomato Task Force (other vets of the Great Tomato War).

Main characters

 * Chad Finletter (voiced by Christian Guzek) - The main protagonist of the story. Chad is a bright ten-year-old boy living with his Uncle Wilbur, working as a pizza delivery boy for Wilbur's Pizza Palace. Chad is one of the few people to know the truth about Tara and F.T. really being tomatoes, but as an act of friendship promised to keep their secret. Chad is the real guiding force behind stopping Gangreen, but because he is a kid, nobody takes him seriously. By the end of season one however, Gangreen puts a bounty on Chad to stop his constant interference. During the second season, Chad became a more of a leader by convincing the others to free Gangreen to help their cause.
 * Tara Boumdeay (voiced by Kath Soucie) - One of Dr. Gangreen's failed experiments. She abandoned his evil plans with F.T. and escaped to the Finletter's where she is Chad's best friend and waitress at Wilbur Finletter's Pizza Palace. Tara is a beautiful teenage girl who has always liked Chad since he is always brave. She reverts to tomato form when exposed to salt, which can be cured with pepper. She is also shown to have telepathic and telekinetic powers.
 * Wilbur Finletter (voiced by Thom Bray) - A Great Tomato War veteran, leader of the Killer Tomato Taskforce and owner of Finletter's Pizza Palace. He is frequently trying new recipes for tomato-less pizzas, most of the time failing. He is still slightly delusional from the war and believes that tomatoes are only good squashed. Although brave, he is not very smart as he and every adult believe F.T. is just an ugly dog. During the second season, Wilbur became more of a rebel leader when the killer tomatoes conquered the planet. He even put aside his grudges when breaking Dr. Gangreen out of jail to help the KTTF.
 * F.T. (vocal effects provided by S. Scott Bullock) - Short for Fuzzy Tomato, F.T. was another failed experiment as he turned out cute, fuzzy, and completely unable to do anything evil. He would have been destroyed by Gangreen, but was rescued by Tara, who disguises him as an ugly dog.
 * Whitley White (voiced by Neil Ross) - A reporter for the San Zucchini news station. Like most of the other adults on the show, Whitley is an idiot. He has a habit of showing up in different parts of town to report on the events of the show or the aftermath (sometimes simultaneously carrying on conversations with himself from both the KRUD studios and 'Live at the Scene').

Recurring characters

 * Tomato Guy (voiced by Maurice LaMarche) - A character who appeared in every episode of the show. He would shout "Tomato" only to cause anybody in the area to panic, and additionally appears as a speaking extra in various episodes. It was later revealed in the Season Two episode "Stemming The Tide" that he makes fun of tomatoes because as a kid, he was served cold tomato soup at a family get-together (his cousin, who turned off the stove, bore a significant resemblance to a young Putrid T. Gangreen, though it was never made clear if the two of them were actually related). In any case, the soup was alive and pestering Tomato Guy until he captured it by covering his soup bowl with a saucer. His voice and design resembles that of Woody Allen.
 * The Censor Lady (voiced by S. Scott Bullock) - An old woman (in a similar vein to 'The Church Lady' character played by Dana Carvey on Saturday Night Live) who appears and tries to stop a character if they are doing some violence-related or imitable behavior. It was revealed in the episode 'Streets of Ketchup' she was something similar to Tara because she turned into a prune when squirted with salt water. She was a recurring character in the first season, but in season 2 only appeared three times; the first time in the second season opener ("The Ripening Disaster") where she warned the audience about the violence that was overtaking the episode and threatened to end it early. Standing behind a red background, it soon becomes apparent that the red background is indeed Zoltan, who eats the Censor Lady and spits her back out. She is then seen in the beginning of the second episode of season two briefly walking with other world leaders. The final appearance was in "The Tomatoes Worms Turn" where she first made sure those in the African ride were buckled in as well as preventing the audience from hearing what Tomato Worms actually do to tomatoes.
 * Sam "The Sham" Smith (voiced by S. Scott Bullock) - A member of the Killer Tomato Taskforce. Sam is a master of disguise, but yet his most recognizable outfit is that of the Lone Ranger.
 * Floyd Bridgework (voiced by Thom Bray) - A member of the Killer Tomato Taskforce. Floyd is an underwater expert and is never seen without his scuba gear on, even when trying on a disguise or something like skating.
 * Mary Jo Nagamininashy (voiced by Kath Soucie) - A member of the Killer Tomato Taskforce. Mary Jo is the only female on the team besides Tara. She is a German athlete that is always into exercise, even when battling tomatoes.
 * Mayor Leonard Earwax (voiced by Cam Clarke) - The mayor of San Zucchini, who is an airhead who somehow lucked into his job. He made two significant appearances in the series, one where he slept through San Zucchini being overthrown (in "Invasion of the Tomato Snatchers") and an appearance where he decides to name Wilbur Finletter as San Zucchini's first sheriff since the 1920s (in "The Gang That Couldn't Squirt Straight"). An election poster could be seen of him as well in the episode "Give A Little Whistle".

Villains

 * Dr. Putrid T. Gangreen (voiced by John Astin) - The main villain of the series. An "angry" scientist (as opposed to a "mad" one), Dr. Gangreen created the killer tomatoes with the goal of global domination. Along with his dull-witted assistant Igor Smith and army of tomatoes led by his head tomato Zoltan, he is always trying to destroy San Zucchini and conquer the world. Although being a genius, he miscalculated two "failures" that became large obstacles in his plans. Fuzzy Tomato (or F.T. as he is called) and Tara, who abandoned him to live with humans. Viewers learned much about Dr. Gangreen in the first season, from the fact that he was the first man to domesticate the wild turnip and ate an entire lawnmower at the age of six (as revealed in the episode "Give A Little Whistle") to playing in a high school rock band named "Mothra and the Handpuppets" (as revealed in the episode "Streets of Ketchup"). In the episode "War of the Weirds" it was revealed that Gangreen's skin color and obsession with tomatoes came from his childhood rivalry with Sidney Igotcha, a rivalry that continued when Sidney became a scientist himself and used Killer Kumquats to try to take over San Zucchini. During the second season, Gangreen accomplished his goals of conquering Earth, only to be overthrown by Zoltan and imprisoned when it became apparent that conquering the world had an oddly calming effect on the scientist. He was busted out of jail by the Killer Tomato Taskforce and joined them in attempts to defeat Zoltan and the killer tomatoes once and for all.
 * Igor Smith (voiced by Cam Clarke) - Igor Smith is an air-headed young man from Malibu who dreams of becoming a TV reporter. He is not really evil, but more of a man that fell into the wrong crowd. Still, he will do his master's work without question if it means that he will be rewarded for helping conquer the planet by being made a reporter. He takes any chance he gets to usurp Whitley White. During the second season, Igor was imprisoned with his master after being overthrown by Zoltan, only to be busted out by the Killer Tomato Taskforce, joining them in attempting to defeat the killer tomatoes once and for all.

Tomatoes
Besides Tara and F.T., the following characters are tomatoes that were created by Dr. Gangreen:

 * Zoltan (voiced by Maurice LaMarche) - Dr. Gangreen's tomato commander. At first, Zoltan was a failed experiment originating from when Igor accidentally had placed old movies into their programming stage instead of training videos, causing him and his gang of five to be lazy and to imitate old movie characters occasionally. Perhaps echoing what the future was to hold for Zoltan, he underwent a transformation into a vampire tomato dubbing himself "Spatula, Prince of Dorkness" and proceeded to kiss people on the neck to transform humans and tomatoes alike into vampires. Fortunately that was undone by Count Dracula himself, who, after handing Wilbur Finletter a cure for the vampirism, declared that the people of San Zucchini did not have the class to be vampires, nor did he want the bad press associated with the citizens' sole night of terror. During the second season, Zoltan and his gang were given a transformation, becoming larger, smarter, and deadlier. Zoltan and his gang conquered the planet and were each issued a continent to rule (e.g. Zoltan controls North America). Soon after that, Zoltan realized they did not need Gangreen anymore and overthrew him, allowing Zoltan to seize control of leader. The series was ended before a final episode resolving matters could be made, but it is assumed that Zoltan and his tomatoes were eventually defeated.
 * Tomacho (voiced by Cam Clarke) - One of Zoltan's gang of six. Tomacho rules over South America and is known as being very calm and chill but also dimwitted. Tomacho speaks like John Travolta and with a surfer accent. In the episode where the gang is temporarily turned into humans, Tomacho becomes a muscular, good-looking young man with long hair, true to his name.
 * Beefsteak (voiced by Chuck McCann) - One of Zoltan's gang of six. Beefsteak rules over Europe, and is known for his short temper. Beefsteak has bull horns on his head and wears a nose ring, which only helps his image of charging at enemies like a bull.
 * Fang (voiced by Susan Silo) - One of Zoltan's gang of six. Fang rules over Africa, and is known for her snake-like personality. Fang has serpent eyes, a snake's tongue and large fangs filled with venom. Fang had the biggest problem with her continent due to her soldiers not returning from the "Heart of Africa". Fang temporary took control of the Gang of Six in the last episode, but returned control over to Zoltan after her defeat by him.
 * Ketchuck (voiced by Maurice LaMarche) - One of Zoltan's gang of six. Ketchunk rules over all of Asia and is known for being the biggest and fattest of the gang of six. Besides being large, Ketchunk is constantly drooling and always hungry for food.
 * Mummato (voiced by Rob Paulsen) - One of Zoltan's gang of six. Mummato rules over Australia and New Zealand, and is known for his silence (though he does speak on rare occasions; his voice sounds much like Marlon Brando). Mummato is wrapped in bandages like a mummy.
 * Phantomato (voiced by Maurice LaMarche) - A deformed tomato that sought refuge in the sewers after the tomatoes seized control of Earth. He hid his face behind a mask just like the Phantom of the Opera, and even had a pipe organ. He saved Tara from Zoltan and Beefsteak and offered to help her find Gangreen once he was finished playing his organ. When the tomatoes located them and attempted to capture Tara again, he saved her by holding off the tomato soldiers while they escaped.
 * The Ultimato - The last tomato experiment made by Dr. Gangreen who has the cloned brain of Dr. Gangreen. He was originally made to help the task force by fighting off the tomatoes, but later turned on them when he wanted to seize control for himself.
 * Link (voiced by Maurice LaMarche) - A deformed tomato that was believed to be the missing link between normal, dormant tomatoes and the killer variety. First appearing in the episode "Tomato From The Black Lagoon", it is revealed that Link is not quite like his killer cousins. He aids Chad and Tara against Gangreen and Igor (Gangreen originally sought Link out to use him in a renewed effort to destroy San Zucchini). He is also very wealthy, as his lair is equipped with state-of-the-art technology and the finest foods. He appeared in a second-season episode, aiding Tara and Chad in their efforts to locate the African Tomato Worms. It is established in both this episode and the episode which the Phantomato debuted ("The Phantomato of the Opera") that they are cousins.
 * Johnny Tomato (voiced by Maurice LaMarche) - Inspired by his love of 1950s rockabilly music and a desire to erase the mistakes he made when he first created Tara, Dr. Gangreen created a tomato that could change into a human named Johnny Tomato, and be used to lure both The KTTF and Chad, Tara and FT to their doom. Johnny's conflicted emotions between loyalty to Gangreen and budding feelings towards Tara led to Johnny succumbing to the same allergy to salt that plagued Tara. It was then, with Gangreen's plot exposed, that Johnny (in a dormant tomato form) was swept away by Gangreen's army of Killer Tomatoes (all of this was shown in the first-season episode "Streets of Ketchup"). Though the character never appeared again, it was revealed in the second-season episode "The Phantomato of the Opera" that Johnny survived, as Wilbur Finletter infiltrated an Elvis Presley Impersonator Contest in Memphis, Tennessee, searching for Dr. Gangreen, and got a picture with him.
 * Tomato Minions - The Tomato Minions are all the other mutated tomatoes in the series. They act as soldiers to Professor Gangreen and Zoltan. In the 1st season they came in different colors which was yellow, green and orange but most of them are red of course. In the 2nd season they all were red and wore Roman-style war helmets and patrolled all parts of the world. They all looked the same as well.

Crew

 * Stu Rosen - Voice Director

Documentary
''Screaming Soup! Presents the Attack of the Killer Tomatoes Retrospective, a documentary film focusing on the history of the Attack of the Killer Tomatoes franchise with interviews including cast and crew from Attack of the Killer Tomatoes TV Series'', was released in February 2023 on YouTube.


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Syed Mohiuddin Qadri

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. - Mailer Diablo 18:00, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Syed Mohiuddin Qadri
self promotion. And the facts and claims are not correct. For example, Time magazine's 2004 list of the most influential people do NOT include this person, and neither does the asiaweek list.
 * Delete: Self promotion, dubious facts. --Ragib 19:12, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete hoax, he's not in any of the last three years' influential lists, and nor is he more than a ripple on Google. -Splash 00:16, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn vanity, puff-piece. -- Etacar11   03:50, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment that nationmaster link is a mirror of wikipedia content. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  14:50, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


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User talk:SaturdaysKids

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Meelar (talk) 19:12, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Wot.jpg
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title: User talk:SaturdaysKids


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Copper fish

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. - Mailer Diablo 18:00, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Copper fish
Neologism. DS 19:12, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, though some neologisms would be insulted at being grouped together with this. -Splash 00:11, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
 * BJAODN? If not, certainly delete. - choster 22:01, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as per nom. I did find one 'smarty' who reckoned the copper fish was hunted to extintion in the 18th century, though ;) Alf 12:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.