text:
Talk:The Stooges (album)

RfC: Should "rock and roll" be linked in the infobox?
objects to the genre being linked in the infobox because of his point of view on the album's music (stated below), conflating it with his desire not to (presumably) mislead readers. The genre is verified in the article by one critic's description of the album, and according to Template:Infobox album, "genres should be linked" (in the infobox). Should "rock and roll" be linked in the infobox? (Plesh your arguments out under Discussion; explanations will be moved there if you accompany them alongside your Vote) Dan56 (talk) 18:53, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Maybe you shouldn't use five-dollar words if you don't know what they mean, Dan. I'm not "conflating" anything. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:52, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Would you feel better with a four-letter word? Dan56 (talk) 00:36, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Votes

 * Yes Dan56 (talk) 18:53, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * No. NewYorkActuary (talk) 05:55, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * No. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:47, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
 * No (see below) -- S Philbrick (Talk)  16:59, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * No rock n roll is not a genre one places upon the progenitors of punk, this is just weird. ValarianB (talk) 19:05, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
 * No This is not relevant, I have never read a famous critic using this label for the first Stooges lp Woovee (talk) 02:32, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Discussion
Despite the exact words a critic used, I am certain that no reputable critic intended to describe The Stooges as rock and roll, "a genre of popular music that originated and evolved in the United States during the late 1940s and early 1950s". Perhaps rock music, "a genre of popular music that originated as 'rock and roll' in the United States in the 1950s, and developed into a range of different styles in the 1960s and later", better captures what they wrote? — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 15:07, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Why are you sure of that? Furthermore, why should what a Wikipedia article--especially the conflated mess that is the rock music article and the rock and roll article whose definitions have questionable verifiability--reflects determine whether we use the word here or not? A critic used it, we don't know their intentions behind using it or their understanding of the word anymore than any other critic using any other word for any other style of music. Also, keep in mind the garage rock article describes it as "a raw and energetic style of rock and roll". Can we avoid the other stuff exists line of argument and just stick to the source? Dan56 (talk) 20:04, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Why am I sure of that? Because I have two working ears and a working brain between them. I don't know what "the other stuff exists line of argument" is, but I know what common sense is. I know that The Stooges is not 1950s-style rock and roll, and if you insist on using that phrase, you shouldn't Wikilink it to an article about a style of music not present on the album. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 21:09, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Congratulations. I hope you have two working eyes and see that the critic called this album "rock and roll". You quoted a Wikipedia article in your argument, so that other stuff. You're also presuming your opinion of the music is relevant here. Dan56 (talk) 21:21, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Dan, it's unfortunate that you're more interested in "winning" than getting it right. I never argued that the critic didn't describe The Stooges as rock and roll, just that they didn't mean the same thing as the article you Wikilinked their phrase to. If you insist on pursuing this edit war for the sake of edit warring, I'll report you to AN/I (not AN3), where you and your shtick are well known. Readers 1, Dan56 0. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 21:43, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

 * *Yawn* You're coming off as arrogant. There's no discussing with you. I've said all I have to say. Dan56 (talk) 02:38, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

A one-sentence "review" at the back of a book about the White Stripes doesn't count as a reliable source on the Stooges. At best, the opinion is WP:FRINGE. NewYorkActuary (talk) 05:55, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The source is Denise Sullivan, a music historian . She's qualified to make a significant judgment on the album. Dan56 (talk) 20:34, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
 * What difference does it make whether the opinion appears in a completely unrelated book? The source verifying "proto-punk" in this article is attributed to a review of the Stooges' The Weirdness, not of this album. Dan56 (talk) 22:57, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

I originally hoped to approach this as an independent admin to close the RFC. However, with only three contributors and limited on point discussion, I didn't feel comfortable closing this based upon the contents of the discussion. I did reach a conclusion but not wanting to close as a super voter, I'm adding my opinion as a vote and hope that someone else can close this. The statement of the notable experts such as Denise Sullivan ordinarily should carry a lot of weight. However, I think it is relevant that the statement is close to a throwaway comment in a book which is primarily about something else. Our list of genres List_of_popular_music_genres Includes rock 'n roll within the larger category "rock" but both punk rock and alternative rock parallel to and not special cases of rock 'n roll.

Sullivan makes references to the Stooges several times in All Music Guide: The Definitive Guide to Popular Music. She talks about The Dream Syndicate and includes it, along with the Stooges as examples of contemporary alternative music. (page 126) Stephen Thomas Erlewine discusses Soundgarden comparing them to the Stooges, but using genres Alternative metal, grunge, alternative pop/rock (page 378). Steve Huey also mentions Ultramega OK, comparing it to the Stooges and refers to it as heavy metal.

 * I find it compelling that the sole source (Sullivan) supporting the rock 'n roll genre is also on record with a reference to the Stooges and other albums and categorizes those other albums in multiple genres, none of which are rock 'n roll, and other notable critics also use genres other than rock 'n roll when discussing the Stooges.
 * I also find it compelling that the Rolling Stones summary refers to "seminal punk classics" and does not use the term "rock 'n roll". -- S Philbrick (Talk)  17:00, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

"Proto-punk" is not a genre and should be removed. Probably the same with garage rock. "Punk" is definitely out. The infobox should steer clear of most of this and stick with only Rock music, which includes all the nitpicky subgenres the Stooges could be labelled with (including Rock 'n' roll—though I seriously doubt Rock 'n' roll and Rock are actually different things, regardless of how Wikipedia presents it). Perhaps Hard rock, if you want to get any more specific. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:33, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Other sources supporting "rock and roll"
,
 * "Via repetitive three-chord rock'n'roll, 'The Stooges' articulated American post-adolescent boredom in a way no rock album had" (John Tobler, 1991, Who's Who in Rock & Roll);
 * "The Stooges didn't so much connect with the music that came before it, rather it dragged rock 'n' roll down to the car wash and scrubbed it up one side and down the other" (Brian Smith, 2002, Detroit Metro Times, in 1969: The Year Everything Changed) Dan56 (talk) 00:40, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

 * Your second source makes the case against you, as it says that the Stooges had no connections to previous music, too what was "rock n roll" at the time and made it into something new. ValarianB (talk) 19:07, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

the book
Grit, Noise, and Revolution: The Birth of Detroit Rock 'n' Roll, (yes, Rock 'N' Roll) by David A Carson, describes the early Stooges as a "loud, raw, almost primitive-sounding rock band." Of course (another phrase meaning "in my opinion") they were a rock & roll band. They are, after all, in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, class of 2010. That is what Rock & Roll was in Michigan during the late 1960s. I don't think that I have ever disagreed with before, but, Mal, you are too young to make this call. Carptrash (talk) 18:32, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

 * Yes, but there really wasn't a name for what the Stooges were when they arrived on the scene so you really can't fault contemporary music critics who lacked the vocabulary to describe a wholly new genre of music. When KMFDM first started appearing in college radio playlists, reviewers called them "progressive house techno", as industrial music hadn't quite gelled as a thing yet. rock n roll is just too broad and generic of a genre type to apply when it can encompass everyone from U2 to Pink Floyd to Roy Orbison. ValarianB (talk) 18:44, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, there was a name for what they played when they arrived on the scene. That name was Rock & Roll.  Carptrash (talk) 19:07, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * C'mon, you can't listen to the original I Wanna Be Your Dog and say that's actually "rock"? That's punk being born before they knew what to call it, and I think latter-day sources have acknowledged that. ValarianB (talk) 19:23, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, I just listened to it, and yes, that is what rock & roll was like back then. At least in Michigan.  I agree that this is punk in the making, but you can't call it something that did not exist at the time. This is Detroit rock & roll. Carptrash (talk) 19:46, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi Carptrash. Please recall what the Stooges sounded like. Then click on rock and roll. Does linking to that article convey anything meaningful to our readers about The Stooges? Did the band play 1950s-style rock'n'roll, which is what the Wikipedia article is about, or did they play ROCK AND ROLL! ? According to Dan56, if a genre is included in the infobox, it must be linked to the corresponding Wikipedia article. I think a link to the music of Elvis Presley and Bill Haley and Buddy Holly does a disservice to readers who want to know what The Stooges sounds like. (Speaking of Detroit rock'n'roll, though, it's an appropriate link for the MC5's Back in the USA, which included covers of Little Richard and Chuck Berry.) — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:20, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, you are going to get me to agree "by definition." What the genre should be in Rock music. What comes to mind is another Detroit musician Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels and the song, penned by Lou Reed, Rock 'n' Roll.  Which I just learned, is not a rock n roll song after all.  If you would, could you go to the Rock and Roll article, look at the second paragraph that begins "According to Greg Kot," which is followed by an "either" and no "or."  I was browbeat by a grammar fascist mother who taught me that there is no "either" without and "or" and if I put the "or" in and finish the sentence the article will end up being about the "or" and the Stooges will be a rock & roll band.  Again. Carptrash (talk) 02:17, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Adding accurate citations
To whom it may concern,

I have looked at the coding process for adding citations but I could use a quick personal tutorial from a Wikipedia employee / editor. I have edited The Stooges debut album Wikipedia page and have a list of my sources where I need to add the proper citations on certain passages where Wikipedia has flagged certain content [citation needed].

Please let me know how best to get started to learn the Wikipedia encoding process for adding the correct Wikipedia citations to link pertinet accurate sources to backup the content.

Thank you!

Jarrett Gardner Jarrett Gardner (talk) 23:01, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

 * pertinent Jarrett Gardner (talk) 23:03, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

 * See WP:REFB. However, these edits indicate that you also need to learn how to write in a more encyclopedic style, as well as citing sources.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:07, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I am the main author - I wrote the bulk of the following paragraphs -

" For their first album, the Stooges had intended to record seven songs: "Asthma Attack", "I'm Sick", "Dance Of The Romance", "Goodbye Bozos", "No Fun", "I Wanna Be Your Dog", and "1969".[citation needed] "Asthma Attack" was a completely different composition than the version of the song utilizing the same song title that appears on the album reissue.[citation needed] According to Iggy Pop, "'Asthma Attack' was a structured piece of repetitive descending chording that sounded a lot like (Syd Barrett's) Pink Floyd 'Interstellar Overdrive.'" He elaborates further, "And it was B (major), A (major), G (major), & E (major) like a Who thing – and then I would wheeze and say, 'asthma attack.'"[citation needed]

Ron Asheton's main guitar riff in the song "1969" which utilizes an "A (major) & G (major) two chord guitar pattern was directly lifted from The Byrds "Tribal Gathering" (originally occurring between :50-1:02 & again at 1:30-2:03 mark in the original song arrangement). The drum pattern in "1969" was directly lifted from the famous Bo Diddley percussive beat.

The main guitar riff to "I Wanna Be Your Dog" was inspired by the opening guitar riff to "Highway Chile" by The Jimi Hendrix Experience and the song arrangement to "No Fun" was inspired by Johnny Cash's "I Walk The Line". Embryonic versions of all seven songs were initially written from mid-late 1968 and early 1969. These seven songs were staples—and essentially the basis—of the Stooges' 1968 and early 1969 live set at the time.[citation needed] A typical Stooges song of the period[according to whom?] would involve either two minutes of composed song followed by several minutes of improvisation or avant-garde, free-form workouts. Having assumed that the seven songs as normally performed would cover requirements for the album, the Stooges were told by their record label Elektra that they needed more material.[citation needed] Pop later recalled: "We auditioned [the seven-song version of the album] live in the studio and they refused it. Jac Holzman, head of Elektra Records, is quoted having said, 'There aren't enough legitimate songs that contain structured lead vocals!' So we lied and said, 'That's OK, we've got lots more proper songs.' Upon hearing this Holzman then indicated to the band that they had one week to record and prepare the album."[2]

Within the week the group was able to complete the task the label requested and wrote four more songs, "We Will Fall" (based upon a musical chant by Dave Alexander), "Real Cool Time", "Not Right", and "Little Doll" (based upon "Goodbye Bozos" freak out, with an additional opening bass guitar riff directly lifted from Pharoah Sanders "Upper Egypt And Lower Egypt" originally played on stand up bass by Henry Grimes and occurring roughly at the halfway mark (9:03 minute mark) in the original song arrangement. ), and after producer John Cale informed the band that they needed "one more song to complete the album", Iggy revised "Ann" which was the first song he wrote for The Stooges that was initially discarded by the band in 1968.

Three of the four avant-garde, free-form songs were now restructured and edited into pre-existing original songs with only "I'm Sick" being discarded completely for the revised list repertoire of original songs recorded for the album. "Dance Of The Romance" was now added into the composition "Ann" tacked on as a musical coda after the ballad main song piece. "Goodbye Bozos" with an additional two chord sequence and updated lyrics now became revised as "Little Doll", while the Pink Floyd "Interstellar Overdrive" influenced structured piece known as "Asthma Attack" was now jettisoned for a more unstructured freak out piece which was newly improvised yet retained the original song title.

All restructured and edited compositions were now played and recorded for the first time in the studio. An initial mix by John Cale, apparently resembling ex-Velvet Underground bandmate Lou Reed's "closet mix" of that band's eponymous third album from the same year, was rejected by Elektra. The mix as heard on the final product was done by Iggy Pop and Elektra president Jac Holzman. Four of Cale's original mixes would later appear on the bonus disc of a 2005 reissued version, with pitch correction applied to them. Five years later, all eight Cale mixes were released unaltered on the first disc of a 2010 collector's edition release of the album.[3] "

30 minutes ago or so I slightly edited a few of my own previous self authored sentences to streamline content and update accurate pertinent accurate information and after posting I saw that all of my edits were deleted and no edits were added.

This is why I desperately need to learn the Wikipedia coding process that has to do with adding citations. The other Wikipedia coding I am familiar with except adding citations.

Please help!

Thank you,

Jarrett Gardner Jarrett Gardner (talk) 23:22, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I am genuinely confused...please don't take this the wrong way my intentions are for you to help me and for me to author sentences in the best way possible per Wikipedia's guidelines...

But if I need to learn to write in a more encyclopedic style than I must ask because why has the bulk of my previous self authored paragraphs all been published?

The Wikipedia paragraphs that currently appear that I just pasted I wrote minimum 80% of this content. Jarrett Gardner (talk) 23:28, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Would it be best to add accurate sources / citations before I attempt to make any minor edits to the pre-existing published Wikipedia content that I previously self authored? Jarrett Gardner (talk) 23:30, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Currently, there are 5 [citations needed] and 1 [according to whom?] that I need to add the correct sources / encode correct citations for to back up my previously authored content.

Previously authored content that I am assuming Wikipedia editors had previously greenlit and allowed to be published. Jarrett Gardner (talk) 23:36, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I apologize if my tone sounds smug or if I have jumped to arrive at false conclusions as this is never my intention!

As you know - plain text does not translate as well an a conversational speech...

However, I am under the assumption that there surely must be a past record log of my previous posts that Wikipedia employees / editors can see so to have knowledge of exactly what information I contributed to Wikipedia webpages. Is this correct? Jarrett Gardner (talk) 23:44, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I have not used the Wikipedia "Talk" feature in some time. Please forgive me for my poor conversational skills and clunky non sequiturs. This is my first attempt in a long while trying to communicate with a Wikipedia employee. Jarrett Gardner (talk) 23:51, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for all your help it is GREATLY appreciated! Jarrett Gardner (talk) 23:58, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Guy Hamilton,

I apologize for the overly elaborate long posts that must have come off as unprofessional and awkwardly emotionally charged.

My true intention is to learn as much as I can from professional Wikipedia editors / authors such as yourself so that I may one day learn to apply the information provided to the best of my abilities. My intention is to learn to apply constructive criticism and write in an objective, encyclopedic style. As well as learning to post the most accurate information along with learning how to cite sources properly.

I have read the information listed in the WP:REFB link you provided me with. I will carefully re-read this information so that I may learn to properly cite sources correctly.

Thank you for your time and help. It is greatly appreciated!

Kind regards,

Jarrett Gardner Jarrett Gardner (talk) 00:40, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

 * Firstly, it's always a good idea to try to walk before you try to run. Experimenting with editing should always be done in your sandbox. Secondly, no-one "agreed to publish" any of your edits - you edited and published it yourself, by clicking the button that says "Publish changes".  If I were you, I would concentrate on simply learning how to add citations to the material you have included.  I'm sure it will then be possible for other editors to read through your contributions and improve the writing style.  But, essentially, getting your edits right is your responsibility - no-one else's.   I've added some guidance to your user talk page - I don't know why it wasn't done previously.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:47, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Stooges (album)


text:
Sony Pictures Digital

Sony Pictures Digital (previously known as Columbia TriStar Interactive, Sony Pictures Interactive Network, and Sony Pictures Digital Entertainment) is a subsidiary of Sony Group Corporation. Operating under the trade name Sony Pictures Digital Productions Inc., it is currently based in Japan, and was formerly based in Culver City, California, up until 2013. Bob Osher was the president of Sony Pictures Digital before he was fired in February 2015.

It oversees the digital production and online entertainment assets of Sony Pictures, consists of Sony Pictures Mobile, Sony Pictures Digital Networks, and others. It is known as the digital website interactive creator for SPE. Sony Pictures Digital designed websites for Sony Pictures, Screen Gems Network, SoapCity, Sony Pictures Imageworks, GSN, among others for SPE.

Columbia TriStar Interactive was formed in 1994. The first official website it launched was for Johnny Mnemonic in 1995. As well as building websites for films and TV shows, it also set up the Sony Studio Store in 1998 and went into partnership with 444-FILM selling movie tickets.

In 2005, the group's name was changed in 2005 to Sony Pictures Digital Sales and Marketing and encompassed all areas of interactive media creation and marketing for SPE, including gaming, mobile, websites, design and sales.

The company is registered under the trade name Sony Pictures Digital Productions Inc., though it is known as Sony Pictures Digital appeared in 2006 longer variant in the copyright on most of the Sony Pictures sites. It is currently headed by Robert Osher, President of Digital Productions, and Chief Operating Officer of Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group, Sony Pictures Entertainment.

The company was also a co-producer along with ShadowMachine, Seth Green's Stoopid Monkey production company, Williams Street, and Cartoon Network for the show, Robot Chicken until Season 5.

Its visual effects division Sony Pictures Imageworks provides visual effects for films produced not only by the divisions of the Sony Pictures Motion Picture Group, but also by other non-SPE studios.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Sony Pictures Digital


text:
Talk:The Secondman's Middle Stand

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080726112459/http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/mikewatt/albums/album/6392757/review/6433750/the_secondmans_middle_stand to http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/mikewatt/albums/album/6392757/review/6433750/the_secondmans_middle_stand

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title: Talk:The Secondman's Middle Stand


text:
Talk:Ball-Hog or Tugboat?

Untitled
Correction "Watt on lead vocals": he sang on three songs. The third one is "Song for Igor". --194.114.62.39
 * That's not him singing on "Song for Igor", it's Vince Megrhoni. Double-check the liner notes of your CD, chief! Cjmarsicano 14:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ballhogortugboat.jpg
Image:Ballhogortugboat.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011
Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the Allmusic template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links: --CactusBot (talk) 10:17, 2 January 2011 (UTC) --Cactus26 (talk) 08:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=Amubyxdybool7

Add musicians?
I was thinking of adding the lineup of musicians for each track. Thoughts? DFS (talk) 03:02, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ball-Hog or Tugboat?


text: User:Taigkiller@earthnet.link

title: User:Taigkiller@earthnet.link


text:
Hanussen (1988 film)

Hanussen is a 1988 Hungarian film directed by István Szabó, centered around the life of Erik Jan Hanussen. Starring Klaus Maria Brandauer, the German-language film received an Academy Award nomination for Best Foreign Language Film. It was also featured at the 1988 Cannes Film Festival.

Plot
During World War I, Klaus Schneider, a train conductor, is hospitalized for head injuries. His doctor, Dr. Bettelheim, discovers Schneider's clairvoyant abilities. Post-war, he reconnects with Captain Nowotny, who becomes his advisor. Schneider, now known as Erik Jan Hanussen, becomes a successful variety star after Nowotny's guidance. He gains fame for predicting a cruise ship's sinking but faces arrest and trial for fraud. However, he's acquitted after showcasing his abilities in court.

In Berlin, where he resides with his girlfriend Valery (Wally) and Nowotny, he socializes with the elite. Despite his earlier claims of being apolitical, he predicts Adolf Hitler's rise to Chancellor, causing tension with Nowotny and Wally. When he foresees the Reichstag fire, the Nazis brand him a traitor, leading to his murder by the SA on March 24-25, 1933, likely influenced by his Jewish background.

Cast

 * Klaus Maria Brandauer – Klaus Schneider / Erik Jan Hanussen
 * Erland Josephson – Dr. Bettelheim
 * Ildikó Bánsági – Sister Betty
 * Walter Schmidinger – Propaganda chief
 * Károly Eperjes – Captain Tibor Nowotny
 * Grażyna Szapołowska – Valery de la Meer
 * Colette Pilz-Warren – Dagma
 * Adrianna Biedrzyńska – Wally
 * György Cserhalmi – Count Trantow-Waldbach
 * Michał Bajor
 * Jiří Adamíra
 * Róbert Rátonyi
 * Kalina Jędrusik – Baroness Stadler
 * Gabriela Kownacka – Propaganda chief's wife
 * Ewa Błaszczyk – Henni Stahl

title: Hanussen (1988 film)


text: User talk:209.133.140.31

title: User talk:209.133.140.31


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brooks International

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete. R e  dwolf24  (talk) 05:12, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Brooks International
Advertising. GinaDana 18:35, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Advertising. Why is it that everyone says they are an "Industry leader"? --Outlander 20:05, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
 * Not everybody; only the firms that are not industry leaders. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete I hate ads in WP. --Sebastian Kessel Talk 20:12, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as per nom Lullabye Muse 20:15, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, advertising. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Jachin 22:35, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Soon as. Blatant ad. Moriori 22:39, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
User:RJP

This user is no longer able to obtain access to the use of the name RJP. He is now RJPe. (RJPe (talk) 13:51, 23 December 2007 (UTC))

title: User:RJP


text:
Thadeus Nguyễn Văn Lý

Thadeus Nguyễn Văn Lý (born 15 May 1946) is a Vietnamese Roman Catholic priest and dissident involved in many pro-democracy movements, for which he was imprisoned for a total of almost 15 years. For his ongoing imprisonment and continuous non-violent protest, Amnesty International adopted Lý in December 1983 as a prisoner of conscience. Most recently, his support for the Bloc 8406 manifesto has led to his sentence on 30 March 2007, for an additional eight years in prison, where he was released and then returned in 2011.

History
Nguyễn Văn Lý began his dissident activities as early as the 1970s. He spent a year in prison from 1977–78, and an additional nine from May 1983 to July 1992 for "opposing the revolution and destroying the people's unity."

In November 2000, Lý gained global and official attention when members of the Committee for Religious Freedom visited him in his village, during the visit of U.S. president Clinton to Vietnam. On 17 May 2001, Lý was arrested at An Truyền church, for his alleged "failure to abide by the decisions on his probation issued by authorized State agencies". In October 2001 Lý received another prison sentence of 15 years for activities linked to the defense of freedom of expression.

In 2002, Lý was awarded the Homo Homini Award for human rights activism by the Czech group, People in Need, which he shared with Thích Huyền Quang and Thích Quảng Độ. The sentence was later reduced several times and he was finally released in February 2004.

In 2002, Lý, together with Thích Quảng Độ, received Vietnam Human Rights Award from Vietnam Human Rights Network.

As a result of international pressure, including activities of the Vatican's Center of Pastoral Apostolate for Overseas Vietnamese under the leadership of Philippe Trần Văn Hoài, Lý was released from prison in early 2004 but remains under house arrest in the Archdiocese of Huế. On 8 April 2006, he collaborated with other writers on the "Manifesto on Freedom and Democracy for Vietnam". Later, the signers of this Manifesto called themselves "Bloc 8406", referencing the date of the document.

On 15 April 2006, Lý and three other Catholic priests published the first issue of "Free Speech" (in Vietnamese: Tự Do Ngôn Luận), an underground online publication. On 8 September 2006, Lý participated in the establishment of the Vietnam Progression Party (in Vietnamese Đảng Thăng Tiến Việt Nam).

2007 Arrest and Sentence
On 19 February 2007, security police surrounded and raided Huế Archdiocese to ransack the office, confiscate computers, and arrest him. They moved him to the remote location of Ben Cui in central Vietnam, where he was under house arrest; Lý engaged in a hunger strike from 24 February to 5 March 2007. As a member of the Bloc 8406 pro-democracy movement, Lý was sentenced again on 30 March 2007 by Vietnamese provincial court judge Bùi Quốc Hiệp to eight years in prison for committing "very serious crimes that harmed national security" by trying to organize a boycott of the upcoming election.

The court appearance was televised in Vietnam, with foreign reporters allowed to attend. During the trial, when Lý tried to shout an unauthorized, dissident remark ("Đả Đảo Cộng Sản", meaning "down with communism"), he was immediately held silent with a hand over his mouth by the security officer behind him. Lý kicked the bar and repeatedly interrupted the court's proceedings with anti-communist remarks and poems. The video and image were later widely circulated on the internet. The arrest was condemned by leaders including then-United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who called the arrests a "negative development".

After Lý's arrest, U.S. Congressman Christopher Smith introduced a House Resolution to call on Vietnam to immediately and unconditionally release him and his co-accused. U.S. Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren wrote a letter to the U.S. Secretary of State to urge the US State Department to re-designate Vietnam on the US Countries of Particular Concern List due to its violations of human rights and religious freedom.

Updates
According to Amnesty International, Lý may have suffered a stroke on 14 November 2009, and was moved to Prison Hospital 198. They launched a letter-writing campaign encouraging the government of Vietnam to ensure Lý can receive adequate health care in hospital and on his return to prison. He was released from prison to receive medical care on 17 March 2010, several years earlier than his original sentence.

In February 2011, Amnesty International lodged an Urgent Action to stop the Vietnamese government's intended return of Lý to detention. However, Lý was returned to prison on 25 July 2011. The State Department was "concerned" by this decision.

On 6 March 2012, former U.S. Representative Joseph Cao organized a Vietnamese–American lobbying effort for Nguyen Van Ly, Nguyen Dan Que, Dieu Cay, and other Vietnamese political prisoners, calling on the administration of President Barack Obama and the U.S. Congress to take a stronger stand on their behalf.

title: Thadeus Nguyễn Văn Lý


text: User talk:70.22.188.78

title: User talk:70.22.188.78


text:
Krein

Krein (Крейн) is a surname. Notable people with the surname include:

 * Alexander Krein (1883–1951), Soviet composer
 * Howard Krein, American plastic surgeon and business executive
 * Mark Krein (1907–1989), Ukrainian-Soviet mathematician

title: Krein


text:
Talk:Febris

ref for earlier anon edit. Alf 18:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Vatican
The Spectator 27JUN29, pg. 12 says “ ...Febris....long outlasted antiquity, and even had a shrine in the Vatican.” Is this true?? Why would a pagan shrine be in a church? 2A00:23C3:E284:900:F5D6:FAFB:E191:2B7A (talk) 20:52, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Febris


text:
User talk:Linear~enwiki

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help pages
 * Tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style

Also, I wanted to tell you that I have removed the portion about FOX airing The Practice. Your local FOX station may air reruns, but ABC has held the series for its entire original run. Also, FOX does not have exclusive syndication rights; for example, NBC and UPN air it in my area. Visit my talk page if you have any comments about this. ral 315  18:39, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

 * It's entirely possible that FOX was originally pitched the series; David E. Kelley has done numerous shows with FOX. And their sister network FX airs reruns here.  But I'm positive that FOX itself has never aired it.  In any event, I hope to see you improving pages here for a long time to come.   ral  315  20:10, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

 * Also, may I suggest that the part you wrote about Season 4 be condensed a lot? It's not really necessary to have such a large portion on just the 4th season.  I would be willing to do this, if you'd rather, but my suggestion is to condense season summaries to one or two paragraphs.  Again, feel free to discuss this on my talk page.   ral  315  20:10, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Practice Cast.jpg
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If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Eachwiped (talk) 10:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Wildcats Charest.jpg
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --FairuseBot (talk) 07:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Non-free rationale for File:NewMan4.jpeg
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Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Linear. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Linear~enwiki that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name. If you think you might own all of the accounts with this name and this message is in error, please visit Special:MergeAccount to check and attach all of your accounts to prevent them from being renamed.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 01:22, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 15:27, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Linear~enwiki


text:
Bobo Chan

Bobo Chan Man-Woon is a former Hong Kong singer and model. She was also an actress in several film and TV-series.

Life and career
Bobo's first film role was in 1999's Tempting Heart. In 2001, she debut her first CD, titled Shine. Between 2003 and 2005, she joined TVB and was featured in four of their dramas before parting ways. In between 2005 and 2008, Bobo reduced her involvement with acting and focused on other projects until the infamous leak of Edison Chen's scandal photos affected her career.

Photo scandal
In January and February 2008, explicit photos were found online involving Chan and Edison Chen. Compromising pics of Bobo privately posing nude and performing fellatio for Edison were leaked over the internet. The scandal also involved Gillian Chung, Cecilia Cheung, and others. The photos badly affected Bobo's career and personal life: strong public scrutiny, cancellation of media contracts, ending all product endorsements in her image, and the end of her engagement. Bobo went into seclusion along with those involved in the photos for over a year in hopes to return when public scrutiny has lessened. She traveled to the US for a time to avoid the media storm to find some peace; unfortunately, even after a year, it remained in public consciousness.

Retirement
Eventually, Gillian, Cecilia, and Edison successfully returned to the entertainment industry, however, Bobo never returned. Bobo decided to leave the entertainment industry and focus on managing a crystal gem shop, Crystal Jamming, in the summer of 2009. In a small public ceremony with some entertainment friends and press upon the opening of her crystal boutique in the North Point district of Hong Kong, she made it clear she would be leaving the entertainment industry to start a more quiet existence to avoid causing further trouble to the people closest to her.

Discography

 * Shine (2001)
 * Bounce (2002)
 * Graceful (2002)
 * BoBo Chan – Phase 1 The Retrospect (2003)
 * Fantasia (2005)

Filmography

 * I Do (2000)
 * Shadow (2001)
 * Women from Mars (2002) [cameo]
 * The Park (2003)
 * It Had to Be You! (2005)
 * Cocktail (2006)

Television series

 * Aqua Heroes (2003)
 * Hearts Of Fencing (2002)
 * Sunshine Heartbeat (2004)
 * The Gâteau Affairs (2005)

title: Bobo Chan


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Porkies

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was '''No true consensus, will redirect to Cockney rhyming slang. Note that redirecting to a section doesn't work'''. R e  dwolf24  (talk) 05:14, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Porkies
Even if the article is cleaned up, I don't believe it could be anything beyond a dicdef. I think the least bad option is to merge salvageable content into lie. Aecis 18:39, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as neologistic dicdef. I've never heard the term used, and I've heard of quite a few euphemisms for lying. --Idont Havaname 19:20, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge as above. It's a real term, and I believe it comes from Cockney rhyming slang.  Porkies can also refer to porcupines, as in the famous movie line "I hate porkies, they irritate me." Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd  19:39, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Cockney rhyming slang, or maybe to Porky's. Already in wiktionary, if anyone was wondering. Kappa 19:53, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Cockney rhyming slang, though Porky's is tempting. Alf 20:16, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge and disambig with Porky's. Trollderella 20:24, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It's a real cockney term, still in usage today, at least where I live, and should be a Redirect to Cockney rhyming slang per Alf. Hiding talk 21:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * See 218 (Redirects do not handle named anchors well). Bovlb 01:31:07, 2005-08-30 (UTC)
 * Redirect As above. Jachin 22:33, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Disambig to Cockney rhyming slang, Porky's, and Lies. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 22:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I wrote this because it was a requested article, from the list of missing encyclopedia articles.  However it is a dicdef and it is rhyming slang..although I thought it came from Glasgow rather than London.  ping 23:47, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect per Alf. --195.92.168.175 00:11, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect. It exists.  It's "Cockney rhyming slang".  It's used in Glasgow.  Bovlb 01:31:07, 2005-08-30 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Porkies


text:
User talk:SP-KP/Coastal locations in Great Britain

Sorry - I've just started editing this, not realising it was in your user space, Please feel free to revert - or would you like some assistance? Andy Mabbett 18:40, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Ferentina

ref for earlier anon edit. Alf 18:40, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ferentina


text:
User talk:Spectralzero

Hi Spectralzero,

welcome to Wikipedia!

Here are a few helpful links to start you off: Avoiding common mistakes, How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Naming conventions, Manual of Style, Policies and guidelines, Help, Merging pages.

If you need help or are curious about something, feel free to ask on my talk page or the village pump. You can sign your name and a date stamp on comments using four tildes ( ~ ). If you have any further questions, feel free to ask, and I hope you enjoy being a Wikipedian!

Andre ( talk ) 18:41, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Spectralzero


text:
Camp Lincoln (California)

Camp Lincoln (also known as Long's Camp, Fort Long, Lincoln's Fort, or Fort Lincoln), in Crescent City, California, was a United States military post. It was established June 13, 1862, by the men of Company G, 2nd Regiment, Infantry, California Volunteers to keep peace between the Tolowa tribe of Native Americans and the miners and settlers of northwestern California.

When the California Gold Rush began, people from all over the country ran to Gold Country to try to make their fortunes. Likewise in northwestern California, many men headed that way, leaving their wives, children, and homes. The Tolowa were being forcibly resettled in the region and were beginning to take their vengeance on those who stayed behind. Settlers petitioned the Army for protection, but their pleas were not well received by the Department of the Pacific, whose troops were already stretched thin from protecting stagecoach travelers.

However, the petitioners eventually got their wish, and Fort Ter-Waw was established. After that was destroyed by the Great Flood of 1862, the troops were moved to Camp Lincoln. In September 1862, the camp was moved six miles (10 km) north of the city to a more neutral position further away from the settlers.

During construction of the new location, tensions between the whites and the Tolowa rose even further. Many of the whites wanted the government to evict the Tolowa, but the government did no such action and they began to take matters into their own hands. Settlers burned crops and harassed the Tolowa, who were told to get out or be killed. Approximately 500 Tolowa decided to leave, and the remaining 1,500 stayed only because the Army promised to keep the peace.

Although no truce was reached, after the Civil War, the Army could not afford to staff many small posts, and the camp was abandoned in June 1869 and closed for good in May 1870.

Commanding officer's quarters and one barracks remained when the site was declared California Historical Landmark #545 in 1962.

Camp Lincoln wasn't the originally intended location
Historical evidence suggests that the original intention of the Bureau of Indian Affairs was to have the Settlers defended from a location other than Camp Lincoln. It appears that GEO. M. HANSON, Superintendent Indian Affairs had another spot in mind. He wrote a letter on July 2, 1862, to Brig. Gen. George Wright requesting that troops be sent to defend the settlers at Crescent City. However, in his letter he mentions a 160 acre parcel of land loosely known as Fort Dick (later referred to as Russell's Prairie) to be an adequate site to defend the settlers. This letter caused First Lieutenant and Regimental Quartermaster W.F. Swasey to be sent a very long distance to evaluate the site of Fort Dick. In his letter, he too recommends it as a good spot. It's not until a third letter arrives from Major James F. Curtis, that he indicates that Camp Lincoln is far superior of a choice and that his inspection of the "Russell place" (Fort Dick) found that it was subject to flooding. That sealed the deal and Camp Lincoln won out over Fort Dick.

All three letters were published by the United States Department of War in 1897, but digitized by the University of Virginia in 2008. The letters appear in Volume L of the multi volume series "The War of the Rebellion".

Office Indian Affairs, Northern Dist. California, San Francisco, July 2, 1862. Brig. Gen. George Wright:

Sir: I am just in receipt of information from the Smith River Valley that the troops sent thither have crossed the river and are about settling camp almost in the midst of the Indians, or at least about half way between the two largest tribes, or say half mile from one tribe and a mile from the others. I hope you will order the troops on the south side of the river to be stationed at or near a place called Fort Dick, where U. S. laud and good water can be found in abundance. This will be two-thirds of the distance from Crescent City to the reservation, and serve as protection both to the whites and Indians, who will thereby be kept entirely separate. 1 have the honor to be, &c.,

GEO. M. HANSON, Superintendent Indian Affairs, <&c.

The second letter written regarding the topic of the site of a fort to protect the settlers came a mere 7 days later. On July 9, 1862. W. F. SWASEY, First Lieutenant and Regimental Quartermaster (Second Infantry California Volunteers) sent a very lengthy letter to Col. F. J. Lippitt at the Headquarters of the District Of Humboldt recommending that the site be that of Fort Dick, CA. Although, not an official US Military Outpost, it was being used by local settlers to defend themselves from the attacks they faced by the Tolowa and Yurok tribes. In his letter, Lieutenant W.F. Swasey goes into great detail about the site and its alternate names, including that of "Russell's Prairie". This name is briefly mentioned in yet a third letter that actually confirms the selection of Camp Lincoln as the site for the permanent military presence to defend the settlers.

On September 15, 1862, a letter was sent to Lieut. Col. R. C. Drum. The letter was sent by JAMES F. CURTIS, Major Second Infantry California Volunteers, Commanding Camp Lincoln, Humboldt Military District. In his letter he describes many things. One thing that is very easy to look over is a mere sentence near the end of the letter where he describes why he selected Camp Lincoln over Fort Dick (Russell's Prairie). Asst. Adjt. Gen., Hdqrs. Dept. of the Pacific, San Francisco, Cal.-: Sir : I have the honor to report that in accordance with instructions from district headquarters I assumed the command of the U. S. troops in Smith's River Valley on 11th instant, and on the following day removed the command (Captain Stuart's company (G), Second Infantry California Volunteers) six miles south of Smith's River, equally distant from Crescent City, still to the south. The camp is upon dry, sloping ground, an opening in a redwood forest, and upon the main road between Crescent City and the Indian reservation, and where it is intersected by the Yreka and Jacksonville turnpike. Communication with the steam-ship landing will always be open over a good road, and we are sufficiently near Crescent City to afford that town protection from the powerful tribe of Klamaths, as well as from the reservation Indians. Good water, wood, and grazing in abundance. The point has the approval of Mr. Hanson, Indian agent. The name Camp Lincoln is retained and the post-office address not changed. Before selecting this site I examined the proposed Russell place and found it entirely unfit for a camp in consequence of its liability to overflow. During the past winter there was but a single knoll above water there, and that not one-half the area of the plaza of San Francisco.

All of which is submitted for the consideration of the general commanding.

Very respectfully, your obedient servant, JAMES F. CURTIS, Major Second Infantry California Volunteers, Commanding.

title: Camp Lincoln (California)


text:
Anandabazar Patrika

Anandabazar Patrika (আনন্দবাজার পত্রিকা) is an Indian Bengali-language daily newspaper owned by the ABP Group. Its main competitors are Bartaman, Ei Samay, and Sangbad Pratidin.

History
A Bengali newspaper was published in 1876 in a small village of Magura at Jessore District in British India (now Bangladesh) by Sisir Kumar Ghosh, the father of Tushar Kanti Ghosh. He named it Ananda Bazar after Tusharkanti's grandmother's sister Anandomayee. However, soon the newspaper died. In 1886, Ghosh published another newspaper, named after his grandmother Amritamoyee: Amrita Bazar Patrika.

Later in 1922, the Anandabazar Patrika was relaunched by proprietor Suresh Chandra Majumdar and editor Prafulla Kumar Sarkar. It was first printed on 13 March 1922 under their ownership and was against British rule. In 1922 it first published as a four-page evening daily. After the death of Prafulla Kumar sarkar, his son Ashok Kumar Sarkar upgraded the magazine. The first colour printing was the features section. The internet edition of the newspaper was launched in 2001, which publishes news among the community. Also provides advertisement in the printed newspaper. In 2010, Time Inc. entered into a license agreement with ABP Group to publish Fortune India magazine. This magazine publishes the Fortune India 500 list every year.

title: Anandabazar Patrika


title: User:67.100.109.48


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maureen Brooks

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete. R e  dwolf24  (talk) 05:15, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Maureen Brooks
Advertising. This page, Brooks International and Rodrigo Handall are all connected and created by the same user. The latter two are also up for deletion. GinaDana 18:41, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as per nominator Lullabye Muse 20:16, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Jachin 22:35, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete vanity/spam/ad. -- Etacar11   02:29, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Perry Henzell

Perry Henzell (7 March 1936 – 30 November 2006) was a Jamaican director. He directed the first Jamaican feature film, The Harder They Come (1972), co-written by Trevor D. Rhone and starring Jimmy Cliff.

Life and career
Henzell, whose ancestors included Huguenot glassblowers and an old English family who had made their fortune growing sugar cane on Antigua, was born in Annotto Bay, Saint Mary Parish, Jamaica, and grew up on the Caymanas sugar cane estate near Kingston. He was sent to Shrewsbury School in the United Kingdom at the age of 14 and later attended McGill University in Montreal, Canada, in 1953 and 1954. He then dropped out of this school, choosing instead to hitchhike around Europe. He eventually got work as a stagehand for BBC television in London. He returned in the 1950s to Jamaica, where he directed advertisements for some years until he began work on The Harder They Come with co-writer Trevor D. Rhone.

In 1965, Henzell married Sally Densham.

Henzell also shot some footage for what was planned as his next film, No Place Like Home, in Harder's aftermath in 1974, but he went broke before he could finish the film. Fed up by this, and the lack of finance for further production, he went on to become a writer, publishing his first novel, Power Game, in 1982. Both were meant to complete a planned trilogy of films centring on Ivanhoe Martin. The footage for No Place Like Home was lost. Years later, he came across editing tapes in a lab in New York. Just to have a sense of completion, he worked on the project. When he showed it to a few friends, their response was enthusiastic. He eventually was able to retrieve the original footage.

A rough cut of No Place Like Home, which features music from Bob Marley, Toots and the Maytals, The Three Degrees, and Marcia Griffiths, was screened for the public at the 31st annual Toronto International Film Festival in September 2006 at the Cumberland Theatre; it was sold out. Film leads Carl Bradshaw (The Harder They Come, Smile Orange, Countryman) and Susan O'Meara attended and answered audience questions with Henzell after the screening. The film was also screened at the Flashpoint Film Festival at the beginning of December 2006 in Negril. A fully restored version was premiered in 2019. The documentary Perry Henzell: A Filmmaker’s Odyssey, directed by David Garonzik and Arthur Gorson, traces the journey to bring No Place Like Home to the big screen.

Henzell had continued to work after being diagnosed in 2000 with cancer. He died from it on 30 November 2006.

title: Perry Henzell


text:
Talk:Normative principle of worship

Disputed
"The Normative Principle of Worship is the generally accepted approach to worship practiced by the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans and Methodists. The Regulative Principle of Worship is the generally accepted approach to worship practiced by the Baptists and Presbyterians."

Really? That's unreferenced, POV, and just plain wrong. So says this presbyterian. This article needs a total re-write - indicating whoose views there are, or simple deletion. --Doc (?) 18:42, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Agreed with the above. As a "reformed" Presbyterian in a church that conforms to the normative princible of worship, I think that some of the fundamental statements in this article needs to be re-examained. User:JPMotion

 * The disputed statments are apparently gone, and no more discussion on merging, therefore I have removed the merge box. Yahnatan 15:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Don't have time to edit right now, but this entire "article" is really just an essay, and most of it is argumentative regarding something other than its topic. Does anyone else see a problem with that....?  BenRussell (talk) 21:10, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

This seems to be more of a theological treatise, or argument, than an informative article fit for wikipedia. Also, as is mentioned above, there are no references. I also believe it should either be completely rewritten or deleted, but have not the time to do it today. 96.233.177.93 (talk) 15:04, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I am curious about the 2nd and 3rd sentences in the first paragraph. "The normative principle teaches that whatever is not prohibited in Scripture is permitted in worship, as long as it is agreeable to the peace and unity of the Church. In short, there must be agreement with the general practice of the Church and no prohibition in Scripture for whatever is done in worship." This was among the edit added 16 September 2013. What is the source for this? I don't recall previously seeing anything like "agreement with the general practice of the Church" in definitions of the normative principle. Further, I am not sure I understand what it means. For example, what "Church"? Thanks. Rlvaughn (talk) 14:28, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

"Normative principle" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Normative_principle&redirect=no Normative principle] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at until a consensus is reached. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 14:30, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Normative principle of worship


text:
Laguerre (surname)

Laguerre is a surname. Notable people with the surname include:

 * Edmond Laguerre (1834-1886), French mathematician
 * Enrique Laguerre (1905-2005), Puerto Rican writer
 * Jean Henri Georges Laguerre (1858–1912), French lawyer and politician
 * John Laguerre (1688-1748), French historical painter, son of Louis Laguerre
 * Louis Laguerre (1663-1721), French painter of the English school

title: Laguerre (surname)


text:
Talk:Fides (deity)

Comments
ref for earlier anon edit. Alf 18:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Fides is not only a goddess. The goddess represents also a fundamental value for the romans, that of loyalty and trust between two parts. Should work on this later. Domusaurea 19:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, Fides is the latin Name for one of the three theological virtues in Christianity, with Spes and Caritas being the other two. But perhaps this should rather go into the entry for theological virtues (which does not state the latin names) --Jbirken 18:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

from http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/fides.html

THE ROMAN CONCEPT OF FIDES

"FIDES" is often (and wrongly) translated 'faith', but it has nothing to do with the word as used by Christians writing in Latin about the Christian virute (St. Paul Letter to the Corinthians, chapter 13). For the Romans, FIDES was an essential element in the character of a man of public affairs, and a necessary constituent element of all social and political transactions (perhaps = 'good faith'). FIDES meant 'reliablilty', a sense of trust between two parties if a relationship between them was to exist. FIDES was always reciprocal and mutual, and implied both privileges and responsibilities on both sides. In both public and private life the violation of FIDES was considered a serious matter, with both legal and religious consequences. FIDES, in fact, was one of the first of the 'virtues' to be considered an actual divinity at Rome. The Romans had a saying, "Punica fides" (the reliability of a Carthaginian) which for them represented the highest degree of treachery: the word of a Carthaginian (like Hannibal) was not to be trusted, nor could a Carthaginian be relied on to maintain his political elationships.

Some relationships governed by fides: AMICUS	'friend'	«——»	AMICUS	'friend'

PATER	'father' 	«——»	FAMILIA	'household'

PATER	'father	       «——»	FILIUS	'son'

DOMINUS	'master'	«——»	SERVUS	'slave'

PATRONUS	       'patron'	«——»	LIBERTUS	'freedman'

PATRONUS	       'patron'	«——»	CLIENS	        'client'

RESPUBLICA	'the Roman State' 	«——»	SOCIUS	       'an ally of Rome'

by John Paul Adams, CSUN on September 16, 2006

material from mos maiorum
The following material was moved from mos maiorum and should be copyedited, wikified, and incorporated here where it belongs, if it isn't here already:

According to Livy (Ab Urbe Condita. I 21), the legendary second king of Rome, Numa Pompilius, founded her cult. Livy goes into the details of the worship of Fides. Her rituals were performed by the three flamines maiores, who were the priests of the gods of the archaic triad. These priests were taken to the shrine of Fides in a covered carriage drawn by a pair of horses to hold her celebrations. While officiating her cult they had to cover their right hand with a white piece of cloth to the fingers.

Since Fides was considered to dwell in the right hand of a man, she was represented during the Roman Empire on coins with a pair of covered hands, to symbolize the credibility of the emperor and the legions [NOTE: “Fides,” O.C.D. pg 595]  The covering of the hands reflected the worship of Fides, where the man performing the sacrifice would cover his hands to the fingers to religiously preserve Fides (Ab Urbe Condita. I 21).

Thanks. Cynwolfe (talk) 01:32, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Pablo Escobar
altunertan0@gmail.com 2.202.18.34 (talk) 06:16, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Describing gods as Sabine
There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome which relates to recent edits here and in other articles. NebY (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Fides (deity)


text:
Talk:Consensus model (criminal justice)

Untitled
what are some simalarties and differences between this model and the conflict model?

title: Talk:Consensus model (criminal justice)


text:
Talk:Travis McGee

McGee's wartime experience
It seems to me that McGee never actually says which war he fought in. JDM himself was in the India/Burma theater in WWII, but if we take McGee's birth year to be somewhere around 1934 (as I do) then he would obviously have to have been in Korea. When McGee does talk about his wartime experience it's obvious that it was in a tropical climate of some sort, since he mentions leeches and jungles. Does Korea have those? Wspencer11 13:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

 * In "Nightmare In Pink" McGee states he wagered on a pass with Mike and McGee won to spend "..all those Japanese hours in a silk robe...". Don't think he would be doing R&R in Japan during WWII but it was quite common during the Korean conflict. Jsadamsjr (talk) 19:03, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

 * It's pretty clearly Korea in the earlier books, but later there's a reference to a paratroop drop that sounds like WWII, and later still there's an account of a jungle war that the US didn't win, which sounds like Vietnam. Actually he couldn't possibly have been in Nam, the first books came out in 1964.  (I guess conceivably that could be a reference to Burma, since the US didn't win that one, the British did.  Seems unlikely though.)  MacDonald is generally pretty meticulous, but he seems to have gotten a little mixed up on this one.  BTW, the article says McGee was in the Marines, but I don't think that is ever stated, and I seem to recall that at one point McGee specifically refers to the Army. 76.199.89.188 (talk) 14:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I’m going with Army Special Forces in both Korea and Vietnam, giving the benefit of the doubt to JDM’s OSS experience/knowledge and commitment to detail. Remember that members of the 10th Special Forces Group were on the ground in Korea in 1953, conducting covert ops. And just three years later (1956) members of the 1st Special Forces group were already in Vietnam, with the first green beret casualties in VN being recorded that year. McGee would have trained and taken R&R in Japan for both missions.  And as for the combat jump, green berets were jumping into combat as advisors throughout the mid to late 1950s with Vietnamese and hybrid forces. 2601:14D:C200:1FF0:FD38:AEA6:BB08:BE25 (talk) 15:15, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

"Reading for Survival"
The essay was distributed by the Book of the Month Club to its many members, giving the piece far wider distribution than the Wikipedia article suggests. Source: http://www.loc.gov/today/pr/1994/94-007.html

New sources to stave off deletion
Due to the AFD I did a quick check for sources. Found three - placing them here so that I can use them later to help improve the article.

Beacham's popular fiction in America

Journal of American Culture

Private eyes : one hundred and one knights : a survey of American detective fiction, 1922-1984

Have yet to see copies of the above but based on the Google Books excerpts there should be enough to cover WP:NOTABLE. Madam Fatal (talk) 18:00, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Travis McGee


text:
Llansamlet (electoral ward)

Llansamlet is the name of an electoral ward (coterminous with the Llansamlet community) in the City and County of Swansea, Wales, UK.

The electoral ward consists of some or all of the following geographical areas: Birchgrove, Glais, Heol Las, Llansamlet, Morriston, Peniel Green, Pentre-Dwr, Talycopa, Trallwn and Summer Hill in the parliamentary constituency of Swansea East. The Llansamlet ward is bounded by the wards of Clydach to the north, Morriston to the west, Neath Port Talbot county borough to the east, and Bonymaen to the south.

Local elections
Llansamlet councillor and Lord Mayor of Swansea, Dennis James, died in April 2013. His death led to a by-election:

In the 2012 local elections, the turnout was 30.32%. The results were:

Districts
The suburb of Llansamlet is the area where part of the Swansea Enterprise Park is located.

Trallwn is a suburb to the east of the ward comprising a large housing estate and a primary school, Trallwn Primary School. Just to the south of Trallwn is Pentre Dwr, a predominantly farming and rural area. There are a number of horse riding schools here. To the west of Pentre Dwr and Talycopa (behind Trallwn shops) is a small housing district called Summer Hill. Trallwn, Talycopa and Summer Hill are not part of the Llansamlet area.

title: Llansamlet (electoral ward)


text:
Talk:Fraus

ref for earlier anon edit. Alf 18:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Fraus


text:
Prickwillow

Prickwillow is a village in East Cambridgeshire with an estimated population of 440. Originally a small hamlet on the banks of the River Great Ouse, it is now on the banks of the River Lark since re-organisation of the river system. It lies in the south of the Fens, 4 mi east of the city of Ely in Cambridgeshire, England, and is home to Prickwillow Museum, which tells the story of the changing face of Fenland. Prickwillow Museum is housed in the old pumping station and contains a major collection of working pumping engines. The village is also home to the Ely Group of Internal Drainage Boards.

History
Evidence for very early settlements near Prickwillow was unearthed in the 1930s, when an archaeological dig took place at Plantation Farm and Peacocks Farm, by the A1101. This provided evidence for Roman and three levels of prehistoric settlements just to the east of the village.

The modern parish of Prickwillow was formed in 1878. The name is said to be a reference to the 'prickets' of willow—long thin skewers used to make thatch—that grew in the surrounding marshy land.

Prior to the nineteenth century, the River Great Ouse flowed east of Ely as far as Prickwillow, before rejoining the modern course of the Ouse at Littleport. In 1829–30, however, the river was diverted north from Ely, and the original channel ploughed and filled in. Today's village lies on the site of the old riverbank, with evidence of the original course remaining in the name of the roads (e.g. Old Bank) and the meandering edges of the neighbouring fields (visible on this satellite image). Astbury terms such old watercourses rodhams and another East Anglian village, Benwick is similarly built on a rodham.

Ordnance Survey maps from the 1920s show a network of agricultural tramways running from Lark Hall Farm on the west bank of the River Lark south east of the village onto Great Fen extending to Hasse Road. Other tramways ran from the east bank of the River Lark extending to Shippea Hill station.

Drainage
Much of the Prickwillow area lies below sea level so, in order to ensure that the land remained arable, a series of steam pumping engines were installed at the base of the newly dug drain, linked to the River Lark. The first of these was the steam side-lever engine, installed in 1831. This was replaced in the 1880s by the steam beam engine, itself replaced in 1924 by the powerful Mirrlees, Bickerton and Day Diesel. With a weight of 25 tonnes and a nominal power output of 250bhp at 250rpm, this engine ran until the 1970s, when it was replaced with automatic electric pumps.

The Mirrlees diesel engine remains the centrepiece of the Prickwillow Museum, and is believed to be the only example of an air-blast injection engine remaining in working order. The museum also contains other diesel engines, dating from 1919, recovered from other local pumping stations, and restored by volunteers. The Diesel pumping engines are demonstrated to interested visitors on several days throughout the year.

Prickwillow is the current office and workshop base for the Ely Group of Internal Drainage Boards who maintain the current electric pumping station in Prickwillow and surrounding watercourses. The group consists of ten internal drainage boards (IDBs) whose boundaries extend to the New Bedford River and Welney to the west and Mildenhall and Lakenheath to the east. The IDBs provide water level and flood risk management within their districts.

In the 1920s, it was reported that the constant draining of the land resulted in the peaty soil sinking by 2 in every year. The local school buildings and St Peter's Church, built in 1862 and 1866 respectively, as well as many of the local houses, were built on piles to ensure stable foundations. Two steps were built up to the front door of the vicarage, but many more had to be added as the land gradually sank. In addition, owing to the high water table, church burials take place in the more elevated settlement of Ely. St Peter’s Church itself is now redundant.

The B1104 between Prickwillow and neighbouring Isleham is reputedly the most subsidence affected road in the country; so undulating is the 6.4 mi drive that some have experienced bouts of motion sickness equal to that of seasickness.

Other
The combinations of banks and ditches could be a hazard for the unwary, as a newspaper article of 1872 demonstrates: ''Narrow Escape. On Saturday evening last one of our neighbours of the name of "Burt", managed to tumble off the bank into the ditch. Some persons passing by heard a strange gurgling sound in the ditch, and made a search, when they found the unfortunate Burt immersed and nearly exhausted; of course they rescued him. It appears that Burt had got "Mr. Beer's" boots on, and the bank not being wide enough for the said boots, he walked into the dyke. Very bad boots those for a narrow bank and dark night!'' Prickwillow had broadband fibre provision installed within the village in 2015. A local company, 4SG Telecom also provides broadband in the village - 4SG Telecom.

To the east of the village are two large houses, the Vicarage and Sindalthorpe House. Sindalthorpe was built in 1849, and was the scene of some scandal. The owner used to invite young London couples up to stay and lay on entertainment – shooting, hunting, fishing and the like – for the gentlemen in question, and then disport himself with their wives. More recently it was the Bedford Farm until around 1985, when it moved into private ownership. Similarly, a mile further out is Shippea Hill Farm, now part of Frederic Hiam Ltd, with the farmhouse again in private ownership.

title: Prickwillow


text: File:Manic Street Preachers - New Art Riot.jpg


text:
Fort Ter-Waw

Fort Ter-Waw was a fortified position of U.S. Army located at the site of the present-day town of Klamath Glen, California. The Location is 6 milesupstream from the mouth of the Klamath River in the former Klamath River Reservation.

Fort Ter-Waw was a United States military post created to establish an occupying force on the Klamath River Reservation that could "keep the peace" between the Tolowa and Yurok Native American tribes and white settlers. It was established in what was then Klamath County, October 12, 1857, by First Lieutenant George Crook and the men of Company D, US 4th Infantry Regiment. The fort was part of the Humboldt Military District headquartered at Fort Humboldt. Most of the fort was destroyed during the Great Flood of 1862 in December 1861 and abandoned June 10, 1862. The garrison was moved to Camp Lincoln.

The site is now in Del Norte County and is marked by a California Historical Landmark (#544). Its location can be found from Hwy 101 taking Ter-Wer Valley exit (Hwy 169), going 3.4 mi to the end of the road, and turning right on Ter-Wer Riffle Road. The site is at the intersection of Ter-Wer Riffle Road and Trinity Way in Klamath Glen.

title: Fort Ter-Waw


text:
Talk:Abortion and mental health

changes to article
I suggest changing the first sentences to the following: "Scientific and medical expert bodies have repeatedly concluded that induced abortion poses no greater mental-health risks than carrying unwanted pregnancies to term.[3][4][5] Nevertheless, the relationship between induced abortion and mental health is an area of political controversy."

Also the following should be changed:

"The U.K. Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists likewise summarized the evidence by finding that abortion did not increase the risk of mental-health problems relative to women carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term."

"The correlations observed in some studies may be explained by pre-existing social circumstances and emotional or mental health.[3][16] Various factors, such as emotional attachment to the pregnancy, lack of support, and conservative views on abortion may increase the likelihood of experiencing negative emotions."

Get rid of sentence that reads: However, negative mental health impacts can result from any pregnancy outcome. Reason: It is out of place here and not true. Mental health problems may occur after any pregnancy outcome but that doesn't mean they are the result of (i.e., caused by) the pregnancy outcome. Also, the topic here is abortion and mental health not any pregnancy outcome. So, I am not sure why the article is shifting to negative mental health impacts that result from any pregnancy outcome. Negative mental health is also a poor use of worlds. There is a term for depression after pregnancy -- postpartum depression -- or more serious mental health problems such as postpartum psychosis according the DSMs. The event occurs after birth but we cannot be certain it is caused by birth (though it likely is).

Among those women who do experience mental health issues following an abortion... - add 'an abortion' after following.

"Anti-abortion crisis pregnancy centers and religious groups offer counseling[1]" should be deleted. They do not offer counseling. See this article (there are more pieces too).

A.G. Bryant, S. Narasimhan, K. Bryant-Comstock, E.E. Levi Crisis pregnancy center websites: information, misinformation and disinformation Contraception, 90 (2014), pp. 601-605, 10.1016/j.contraception.2014.07.003

Noit821 (talk) 02:49, 7 August 2019 (UTC)noit821

Imbalance of article is potentially harmful
After reading this I would suggest including a couple citations that do not lack sufficient emphasis on mental health and how it can be damaging to women. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evelynvpizarra (talk • contribs) 05:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

There article lacks sufficient emphasis on the fact that all the expert bodies agree that some women do have negative mental health problems following abortion. The APA report specifically lists a number of risk factors that predict higher incidence rates of mental illness. (I've added these to the lead.) The APA also states: "[I]t is clear that some women do experience sadness, grief, and feelings of loss following termination of a pregnancy, and some experience clinically significant disorders, including depression and anxiety,"  but this is not stated in the lead, where it belongs!

I realize that most editors are focused on the big public health perspective, which is what most of the cited reviews are referencing, stating as a conclusion, in essence that abortion does have mental health problems associated with it, but so does carrying a pregnancy to term. BOTH are problematic. For individual women these risks may vary (look at the list of risk factors). But when you look at studies that average all of these findings together, on AVERAGE it does not appear that abortion is a bigger problem than unwanted pregnancies.

Okay. That's a consensus view about the average public health risk of abortion versus unplanned pregnancies. But the consensus is also that for many individual women, abortion does pose mental health risks and these women deserve good counseling.

But think about a woman who is having problems who comes to read this article. Is she seeing any compassion for the fact that she believes her abortion is contributing to her mental health issues? No, she's seeing a one-sided article that focuses on the lack of a significant public health risk difference between abortion and delivery of unplanned pregnancies that is framed in a way that implies that there are NO mental health effects associated with abortion and therefore she is "crazy" to attribute her feelings of grief and loss to her abortion, because the "experts all agree there are no mental health effects from abortion" (the last quote not being literal, but rather the tone of this article.)

This article needs to reflect the difference between the statements" "The mental health risks of a single abortion for an adult woman with no pre-existing risk factors is similar to the mental health risks associated with carrying an unplanned pregnancy to term," and the acknowledgement that "Some women do have clinically significant mental health problems related to their abortions, just as many do with regard to facing the burdens of an unwanted pregnancy."

Let's find a way to acknowledge both the fact that it abortion is associated with mental illnesses and the fact that, from a public health perspective, these risks appear to be on the same order as that of carrying unwanted pregnancies to term.Saranoon (talk) 14:57, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
 * "Is she seeing any compassion for the fact that she believes her abortion is contributing to her mental health issues?" Is John Q. Public seeing any compassion for the fact that he believes that vaccines cause autism and Hillary Clinton runs a ring of pizza pedophiles? What do you think this encyclopedia is for? Your changes did not address the issues that this comment claims to address. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:39, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

 * There are many ways to address the problems with this article. Certainly there are more comprehensive solutions that could be accomplished in a major overhaul to improve the balance.  I was attempting to show respect for the previous edit of the first sentence in the lead by retaining it in full but adding the additional material that clarifies that "expert bodies" are also actually acknowledging that abortion does involve mental health risks....especially for subgroups of women.

 * Here is the problem with the lead. Nothing in it clearly states, that some women do experience mental health problems associated with their abortion.  The APA report clearly states that...not as a headline, but in the body of the paper.   Instead, the whole tone of the article is "we can ignore the medical evidence that there are some cases of mental health problems that are triggered or exasperated by abortion because many medical experts believe that there are just as many mental health risks associated with carrying an unintended pregnancy to term."   But as soon as you do a comparison like that, you are talking about a public health issue...like the risk of death is greater from driving than from flying.  The latter fact doesn't mean that flying is perfectly safe and should not be the lead on an article regarding aviation safety issues, much less the predominate theme for dismissing aviation safety issues altogether.

 * In fact, in this comparison, [Fergusson's 2013] review shows that the few studies that do directly compare mental health risks of abortion to carrying unintended pregnancies to term indicate there are greater risks associated with abortion. Even though this review was published after the APA and NCCMH reviews, these findings are not properly reflected in the article. Saranoon (talk) 14:06, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't see why you repeat the same arguments every couple of months hoping for different results. Our most fundamental responsibility is to provide the reader with accurate medical information. People can develop mental-health issues after any major life event. Medical evidence indicates that if a woman has an unplanned pregnancy, then abortion is no more likely to cause mental-health issues than carrying the pregnancy to term. Our article states this correctly. Your edits have consistently sought to obscure these facts, and to imply, falsely, that abortion is inherently riskier from a mental-health perspective. Given the proliferation of politically-motivated falsehoods about abortion, our responsibility to provide accurate and non-misleading information is particularly relevant here. MastCell Talk 16:26, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , I think you are mischaracterizing the tone of the article in an attempt to make your point. Restating Fergusson over and over does not cancel out the overwhelming body of evidence on this topic. Your edits were more inflammatory than you are claiming. SeeJaneEdit (talk) 21:05, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

 * I would remind the above editors that they should follow the wise policy of recognizing and assuming good faith WP:AGF regarding my edits. My edits are indisputably based on reliable secondary sources.  I understand that the objections are about weight.  So let me simply ask, "Where in the lead is due weight given to the fact that, numerous sources, including the APA review, state that some women do have clinically significant mental health issues related to their abortions?"  If you don't like the way I try to word it, please offer your own edit suggestions which give due weight to Fergusson's review and the APA's own statements regarding the fact that some minority of women do have significant problems. Saranoon (talk) 21:59, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Unbalanced and Potentially Misleading Lead/Introduction
Instead of presenting the information plainly and clearly, this lead seems to introduce controversy and opinions on the topic within only the first two sentences. I believe this could be greatly improved by editing the beginning sentences to objectively and plainly state the subject of the article as to give readers a clear look into the topic without presenting any discussion. As you read further through the lead, you read statement after statement that the writer presents to support the idea that abortion has no more effect on mental health than does carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term. For this reason, I believe this could be perceived as presenting strong bias towards this side of the argument. Following this long first paragraph, there is a second, much smaller paragraph included in this lead that briefly and seemingly dismissably introduces the opposing side to this argument, claiming that there is no evidence to support these opposing claims. This lead seems to espouse personal bias rather than objectively and plainly state the subject while simply introducing the discussion. A simple read through and deletion of opinion statements as well as the addition of information/evidence to support the opposing argument would do the article well.

Adamhampton99 (talk) 01:22, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:DUE. We do not give equal validity to all claims and positions. Instead, we present them in the context and with the prominence that reliable sources do. Reliable sources overwhelmingly support the position that abortion does not have more negative effects than carrying pregnancy to term. That means we will present that position with greater prominence. What you are complaining about is actually a feature, not a bug, of this encyclopedia. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:52, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I note specifically that the lede cites three separate major medical science organizations - the National Academy of Sciences, the American Psychological Association, and the National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health. Which medical sources do you have to dispute the findings and conclusions of these organizations? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:13, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

 * I agree with Adamhampton99. There is a distinct lack of balance and a failure to give WP:DUE to numerous studies and reviews, such as the review by Fergusson, previously discussed.  There is also a cherry picking of concepts in the lede, and body of the text, which ignore the fact that the 2008 APA report, upon which all the other reviews rely so heavily, states quite clearly that SOME women do have negative mental health problems, especially those who fall into a long list of high risk categories, which may well include the majority of women having abortions.

 * Adamhampton99, I would encourage you to propose how you would edit the lead here for discussion. Saranoon (talk) 23:11, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with . Wikipedia follows reliable sources. We're saying what the National Academy of Sciences, the American Psychological Association, and the National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health say. That's the right thing to do. Bondegezou (talk) 10:00, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The reason the article is primarily framed through the lens of controversy is because of the persistent politically-motivated myth that abortion causes mental health problems. Our article handles the situation correctly in noting that no such relationship exists, according to medical bodies. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:53, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I suggest reading the talk page archives where this has been discussed frequently.  While political debates exist about the topic, the science is what the article should reflect.  — Paleo  Neonate  – 18:33, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Adamhampton99 is correct. The lead paragraph is very misleading, especially the first two sentences. Not a single one of the three cited sources concludes that "abortion poses no greater mental health risks than carrying an unintended pregnancy to term." If you disagree, please give the exact page cite and quote from the source. Much less, none of the three sources "have repeatedly" come to that conclusion. The closest to making that statement is the APA which actually makes a very much narrower, more nuanced statements. I tried to edit this to reflect that the statement is limited to a single abortion of an adult woman, since the APA acknowledges that multiple abortions and abortions for younger women may be problematic. Similarly, they acknowledge aborting a wanted pregnancy is also problematic. But this is not being disclosed in the lead. For example, from the APA executive summary: ""None of the literature reviewed adequately addressed the prevalence of mental health problems among women in the United States who have had an abortion. In general, however, the prevalence of mental health problems observed among women in the United States who had a single, legal, first-trimester abortion for nontherapeutic reasons was consistent with normative rates of comparable mental health problems in the general population of women in the United States." They also acknowledge that "Nonetheless, it is clear that some women do experience sadness, grief, and feelings of loss following termination of a pregnancy, and some experience clinically significant disorders, including depression and anxiety."  Yet this fact that abortion can contribute to "clinically significant disorders" is nowhere in the lead.--Saranoon (talk) 23:18, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Criticisms September 2021
The article, specifically the lead, lacks organization. There is much improvement to be done in terms of expanding on the already noted research, and in terms of generating a more understandable format. Starting with the lead, this paragraph should flow more like a simple introduction, rather than an entire paragraph of facts. Asbozue (talk) 00:27, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * What changes would you propose? Incidentally, your added sentence is so vague and bare as to be meaningless and I don't see the point of keeping it. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:05, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Lead: First 2 sentences slight rearrangement?
This is an exceptional article; kudos to all involved! I’m wondering whether the first 2 sentences of the Lead might be improved with a slight rearrangement. We currently have:

Scientific and medical expert bodies have repeatedly concluded that abortion poses no greater mental health risks than carrying an unintended pregnancy to term. Nevertheless, the relationship between induced abortion and mental health is an area of political controversy. (cites removed, bolding in original)

I suggest something like this:

The relationship between induced abortion and mental health is an area of political controversy. However, Scientific and medical expert bodies have repeatedly concluded that abortion poses no greater mental health risks than carrying an unintended pregnancy to term. (with the cites we’ve already got appended to the info we’ve already got them on)

I understand the reason why the first 2 sentences are as we’ve got them currently: This is a medical and scientific issue, there is overwhelming MEDRS-backed consensus on the issue, and that consensus should be front-and-center. However: Someone (blissfully) ignorant of the merely political controversy, or someone only aware of the political controversy who incorrectly assumes the political controversy reflects a medical and scientific controversy, may get a bit turned around by the way we’ve got things now. If I understand things right, much of the reason scientists and doctors cared about investigating this issue to begin with is because of the unsupported assertions in the political sphere that abortion is causally responsible for mental health problems, and the suggested rearrangement implicitly addresses that issue (as the Body of the article details). Added bonus, even though this is not strictly required: The rearrangement gets the bolded topic of the article into the first sentence.

This is such an excellent article that I wouldn’t want to mess with the Lead unilaterally, and this isn’t a huge issue (and it’s only stylistic, not content-based). What are others’ thoughts on this rearrangement/proposed wording? ThanksForHelping (talk) 02:08, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Your statement of the reason why the first 2 sentences are in their current form summarizes the issue well: the medical/scientific consensus should be front and center. The problem with reversing the sentences is that it would suggest that the question is primarily a political one, meaning that people on both sides are politically motivated (see WP:FALSEBALANCE). Although it's not your intention, that would feed into the anti-abortion claims that the consensus view of MEDRS can't be trusted. NightHeron (talk) 10:15, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that response and explanation; that’s entirely acceptable to me. ThanksForHelping (talk) 00:43, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Abortion and mental health