text:
Talk:Udham Singh

Legacy
Industrial district of Uttarchal state in India is named after Udham Singh as 'Udham Singh Nagar' Nagar in Hindi/Sanskrit means city. Link - http://usnagar.nic.in/history.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.162.210.81 (talk) 14:10, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

POV
This article starts off by referring to the subject's "martyrdom" and continues with terms like "brutality". It needs a severe POV-ectomy. Zoe 06:49, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * I have made some changes to make the article less POV. I am not done yet. I will make more changes later as I try to get more information on Udham Singh. I have left the POV tag on for now. Syiem 12:18, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I've merged the article with Mohammed Singh Azad (making that a redirect), and I cleaned everything up. I left the POV tag for lack of knowledge of the subject and what the conflicting POVs may or may not be. I've also left some comments in the wiki markup where I think things need to be clarified and where I think a footnote is in order to support a potentially POV statement. — BrianSmithson 14:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Udham Singh was an Indian revolutionary and freedom fighter, considered to be one of the most famous martyrs of the Indian freedom struggle. For this reason, he is often referred to as Shaheed Udham Singh (the word shaheed means "martyr"). He is also believed by many to be one of the earliest Marxists in India. He died for the freedom of India. I think there is no need to use POV tag any more as there are lot material and books are available in India which prooves that Udham Singh was a freedom fighter not a killer. DeepakKamboj 11:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter how many sources back up your claims; the fact is that from the perspective of the guy he shot, he's a killer. I'm reinstating the tag, as the article needs another go-over to remove POV statements. — BrianSmithson 12:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

 * According to you, if any body shots and kills other person, he is killer. This means all the Indian freedom fighters were killers and not martyrs who died for the freedom og India. So Bhagat Singh, Chandershekhar Azaad, Subhash Chander Boss are killers not martyrs. This definition is also implies to the British rulers in India at that time. All Britishers were killer who were killing innocent people in India at that time. Also forces in Iraq were killer who was killing other people. So this is not a correct definition of defining a killer. Then how would you define a martyr and freedom fighter. Everybody in India, belives, knows and claims that Udham Singh was a freedom fighter and martyr not a killer. I think we should remove the POV tag. - DeepakKamboj 09:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
 * No, not according to me. According to people who were alive at the time (the man was tried and executed for murder), some of whom are presumably alive today. I have no stake in this; Udham Singh was unknown to me until I found this article. My main gripe right now is that your bias is very clear on this talk page, so I think the prose of the main article needs to be combed over for POV. I'll try to do this later. Again, remember that I have no POV on this; I'm not for or against Udham Singh's legacy. — BrianSmithson 12:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Brian,

I have tried to cleanup the article and did some formatting. Will you please help in the cleaning process so that this article will prove to be best source for information on Udham Singh. - DeepakKamboj 11:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you are taking such an interest in this article. But I wanted to point out some ways that your editing is sometimes POV. Take this paragraph, for example, which you recently added to the article:

"It was the fateful Baisakhi Day, 13th April 1919 when thousands of unarmed, innocent & peaceful sitting Indians had assembled in Jallianwala Bagh, Amritsar to register a peaceful protest against the misdeeds of Britishers, British Imperialism and the arrest and deportation of Dr. Satya Pal, Dr. Saifuddin Kitchlew and other under the infamous Rowlatt Act. Udham Singh was present in the Jallianwala Bagh and serving water to the assembled people along with his friends from Centre Khalsa Orphanage."
 * In this example, I have italicized those terms that are POV. I realize that to you Udham Singh is a hero and a patriot. But you need to try to approach the subject as if you are a complete outsider with no feelings for or against Udham Singh. Keep that in mind (objectivity) when you write, and you should have no problems with the NPOV policy. — BrianSmithson 12:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Sure Brian. I'd love you to replicate this argument on the pages of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and even Winston Churchill. After all, they too were killers. Why don't you go ahead and change those first? DemolitionMan 15:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Please. Save the hyperbole. — Brian ( talk ) 22:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Hyperbole? You are kidding right? It's more like an understatement given the deaths Churchill was responsible for. Difference being that Churchill is awarded with medals and honors for killing Nazis and other terrorists while Udham Singh gets the noose for killing one terrorist. DemolitionMan 18:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipeida is not a soapbox. I'm not going to argue the merits of historical figures with you. And you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I have some kind of vendetta against Singh when I really have none. If there is something article-related you wish to discuss, then fine. — Brian ( talk ) 22:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Nada, I was the one who suggested that the word "radical" instead of militant or patriot be used to you a while ago. I am all for the NPOV. All I am saying is that you are trying to present views from a British perspective which you believe to be the NPOV. I know it sounds patronizing but that's what it comes across as. Sorry. DemolitionMan 04:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you feel that way. But I'm American, and I'd never even heard of Singh until this article had an RfC filed a while ago. — Brian ( talk ) 05:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

 * American? Haha, that explains it. Anyways. That edit wasn't POV at all. I think that was ridiculous for you to even claim it, Imperialism is what that is called, they organised peacefully to stop the evils of the British system. That is how he said it, like it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.146.72.200 (talk) 18:34, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

if udham singh was a killer who was tried and excuted then jesus christ was also thif aginest extimist who was excuted by romens. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.162.59.66 (talk) 10:16, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Photo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mirror.jpeg overwrote a picture of a mirror that was used in Mirror. If someone can fix it, great; otherwise I'll do it tomorrow. Tintin Talk 18:54, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tintin, Thanks for fixing up the photograph. - DeepakKamboj 11:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Deepak, you have to add a license to the Image:Udham mirror.jpeg, or it will soon get deleted. You can find the list here - copyright tags. Add the proper one in the license section. Tintin Talk 17:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Still POV
To the anonymous contributor who keeps removing the NPOV tag: Read the text of that template. It says that "the neutrality of this article is disputed." I dispute the neutrality of this article. It fails our Neautral Point of View policy miserably. Take just these two sentences as example:

 * Whilst living in England in 1940, Singh Shot dead Sir Michael O'Dwyer, former Governor of the Punjab. This was in revenge for the heinous criminal massacre, which General Reginald Edward Harry Dyer had perpetrated on innocent Indians under Michael O'Dwyer's rule, and which O'Dwyer had, unfortunately defended. Although condemned by few conservatives at the time, numerous patriotic Indians however, regarded this justified revenge as an important step in India's struggle to end British colonial rule.

To be neutral, this should probably read:

 * Whilst living in England in 1940, Singh Shot dead Sir Michael O'Dwyer, former Governor of the Punjab. This was in revenge for the O'Dwyer's part in allowing British soldiers to fire into a crowd of unarmed Indians, an act O'Dwyer later defended. Although condemned by conservatives at the time, many Indians then and now regard the killing as justified revenge and an important step in India's struggle to end British colonial rule.[A source citation goes here.]

Please concern yourself with facts and don't use loaded words like "heinous" and "unfortunately" unless you are presenting someone else's opinion. Your opinion has no place in an encyclopedia article. And until the article is combed for other such terms, the NPOV template must remain. — BrianSmithson 04:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Category:Assassins
I'm not sure why Category:Assassins should be removed. Singh stalked a prominent man and shot him in retaliation for political actions that man had taken. That's pretty much the definition of assassin: "One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person.". If supporters of Singh think that the word is too negative, then keep in mind that assassination is not necessarily a completely negative thing. Governments the world over have and do have assassins on the payroll. This is not an issue of good or bad, black or white; it's about what words mean. Singh was an assassin, and that doesn't negate any good he may have done for India. — BrianSmithson 00:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 01:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Invisible comments and Singh's aliases
I forgot to mention this yesterday when I made my changes to the article. I've added a few comments to the text. These are only visible in edit mode, and are highlighted by the markup. Most of these are simply requests for footnotes in places where something potentially contentious is stated.

Also, the article includes this list of aliases: Sher Singh, Udham Singh, Udhan Singh, Ude Singh, Uday Singh, Frank Brazil, and Ram Mohammed Singh Azaad. Some of these are referenced later in the article, but others are not. I think it'd be nice to say in the biography section exactly when he went by what alias. For example, if he called himself "Frank Brazil" while he lived in the US, then make a small note of it: "He returned to India in 1924, reaching the U.S. that same year. There Singh went by the alias 'Frank Brazil' and became actively involved with freedom fighters of the Ghadar Party, an Indian group known for its revolutionary politics and its legendary member, Lala Hardyal." — BrianSmithson 14:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

More POV creeping in
Please watch the POV. Captions such as "Udham Singh: Restored pride and dignity to a butcherd and humilated Nation" have no place on a neutral encyclopedia like Wikipedia. Likewise, labelling Dyer as "one of the butchers" is POV. We are neutral observers; it's enough for us to simply post the picture with no comment pro or con. — BrianSmithson 14:30, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Material inappropriate for Indian Independence Movement
An anon has added lot of information on Udham Singh to the above. I have reduced it and am copy-pasting the actual material here so that interested editors can incorporate some of it in this article. TIA, --Gurubrahma 13:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Udham Singh was yet another outstanding patriotic revolutionary and militant nationalist after Bhagat Singh. He was born on 26th December, 1899 in Sunam (then in Patiala State). His former name was Sher Singh but on receiving baptism in Sikhism, he was named as Udey Singh or Udham Singh.

From early age, Udham Singh got interested in revolutionary literature and books. He was also very much influenced by Marxist and Bolshevik ideology. Revolutionary activities of Bhagat Singh and his companions played a key role in moulding and shaping the future course of his life. Udham often spoke of Bhagat Singh as his guru and role model.

The Jallianwala Bagh tragedy proved a turning point in Udham's life. At that time, he was a matriculate student in Central Khalsa Orphanage Pultighar, Amritsar. He had volunteered to serve cold water to the gathering at the Bagh on the fateful day of Jallianwala Massacre. Therefore, he had witnessed moment by moment of the unfolding of the tragic drama on April 13, 1919 and was himself hit by bullet on his left arm. After General Reginald Edward Harry Dyer had indiscriminately massacred a wholly unarmed, innocent and peaceful gathering, Udham Singh had helped carry the dead or wounded on the stretchers to the cremation grounds or for medical care. He was deeply moved by the bloody scene and the national humilation; and he took a solemn pledge in front of Golden Temple to inflict a befitting penalty on the main culprit, Sir Michael O'Dwyer, the Governor General of Punjab (Eminent Freedom Fighters of Punjab, 1972, p 239, Dr Fauja Singh).

This event had plunged Singh into active revolutionary politics.

Udham set out to give a practical shape to his solemn pledge. His goal was to reach upto his target at London. First he managed to reach Africa in 1921. Later in 1924, he reached USA where he got very actively involved in the revolutionary activities of Ghadar Party founded by revolutionaries like Kartar Singh Sarabha, Sohan Singh Bhakna and legendary Lala Hardyal. Udham actively worked for three years for the freedom struggle with the overseas Indians in USA. Then, on invitation from Bhagat Singh, Udham returned to India in July 1927 with 25 revolutionary companions and a consignment of arms to speed up the freedom-struggle. By that time, he had become a clean-shaven Sikh. When in Amritsar, Udham was arrested by Rambagh police on account of his being in possession of arms, revolutionary tracts and booklets and some objectionable postcards which belonged to and were published by Ghadar Party in USA. This arrest is believed to have occasioned by a tip-off given by some of his aquaintance. Udham was prosecuted under section 20 of the Arms Act and was sentenced to five years rigorous imprisonment in October 1927 (See: Udham Singh alias Ram Mohammad Singh Azaad, 2002, p 106, by prof Sikander Singh).

In the court, he had stated that he had intended to murder British Imperialists who were ruling over Indians and that he fully sympathised with the Bolsheviks, as their object was to liberate India from foreign control.

Udham was released in October 1931. In the following years, he continued his revolutionary activities and also worked on plan to reach London. In early 1934, when on a secret visit to Kashmir, Singh duped the police and escaped to Germany from where he ultimately reached London towards the middle of 1934, and joined engineering course there to cover his real motives since his real object was something totally different. He purchased a 6-chamber revolver and a load of ammunition.

For a long time Singh was on the look-out for a suitable opportunity to get out his chief target, Sir Michael O'Dwyer (See: Eminent Freedom fighters of Punjab, p 240, Dr Fauja Singh.

While in London, Udham had gotten numerous opportunities to knock him down, but he was actually looking for a right chance when he could make a big capital out of his intended object and internationalize the event.

At last, the long awaited opportunity came on 13th March 1940 about 21 years after the Jallianwala Bagh tragedy. On that day, a joint meeting of East India Association and the Royal Central Asian Society was scheduled at Caxton Hall and among its prominent speakers was listed the name of Sir Michael O'Dwyer. Concealing his 6-chamber revolver in the book specially cut for the purpose, Udham managed to enter the Caxton Hall and took up his position against the wall. After the end of the meeting, when the gathering had stood up and Michael O'Dwyer was moving up towards the plateform, apparently to speak to Lord Zetland, Singh moved closer to the stage, whipped out his revolver and fired his shots specifically targetting his precious pray. O'Dwyer was hit twice and thus yielded his ghost instantaneously. Then Singh fired shots at Lord Zetland, the Secretary of State for India, who was injured but not seriously. Sir Luis Dane was incidently hit by one shot, broke his radius bone and fell to the ground with serious injuries. A bullet also hit Lord Lamington whose right hand was shattered.

Smiling Udham leaving the Caxton Hall after his arrestUdham Singh did not intend to escape. He was arrested on the spot and later produced before the court. When the court asked about his name, he replied "Ram Mohammad Singh Azad" which demonstrates that Singh was beyond the bonds of race, caste, creed, or religion (See: Eminent Freedom fighters of Punjab, p 240, Dr Fauja Singh).

During his trial, Singh revealed to the court: "I did it because I had a grudge against him. He deserved it. He was the real culprit. He wanted to crush the spirit of my people, so I have crushed him..... " (See: CRIM 1/1177, Public Record Office, London, p 64).

As was expected, he was sentenced to death by hanging. He died on the gallows in London on June 12, 1940.

Though in March 1940, the Congress leaders like Pt Jawahar Lal Nehru and Mahatama Gandhi had condemned the revenge by Udham Singh as sensless, in 1952 however, Nehru had applauded Singh with the following statement which appeared in the daily Partap: " I salute Shaheed-i-Azam Udham Singh with reverence who had kissed the noose so that we may be free" (Quoted in: Udham Singh alias Ram Mohammad Singh Azaad, 2002, p 300, Prof (Dr) Sikander Singh).

Udham Singh's act was rare example of a firm and successful determination maintained for many long years to avenge a national insult and humilation and to restore the pride to its people.

References:

Eminent Freedom Fighters of Punjab,1972, Punjab University Patiala, by Dr Fauja Singh. Udham Singh alias Ram Mohammad Singh Azad, 2002, by Prof Sikander Singh.
 * This is basically what this article looked like before we cleaned it up. Probably the same anon we had to semi-protect the article to combat. — BrianSmithson 14:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Unlocked
The page is unlocked for now. It's been a while since we locked it; I figure we can see if the same POV edits creep in again. — BrianSmithson 20:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

HarshitKamboj (talk) 10:22, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Militant
removed the word 'militant' to political activist. Bharatveer 12:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Reason? I'm restoring it — He killed a man and advocated violence. How is that not applicable? — BrianSmithson 15:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

when the word " political activist" is more apt here, why are you insisting on the word "militant"??

I am going to change it once more Bharatveer 07:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * How is killing someone political activism and not militant? I'm restoring it until you provide a better argument. — BrianSmithson 15:52, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

-- 1.This is the first opening sentence of the article. 2.So it will be more appropriate if the word 'Political activist ' is used there. 3.He did not spent his whole life killing people ;assasination was done as a part of his political activism 4.If you are so insistent on describing him as a 'militant' ; you can insert another line for that. 5.Lastly why are you childishly clinging on to that word????????

Hope these argument satisfies you. I am going to change it now Bharatveer 16:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, how is killing someone "political activism"? Please refrain from making personal attacks. You seem insistent on "political activist", so I'll keep that wording. But "militant" should stay. This guy was no dove. My main objection, however, is that this article is in a precarious position with regards to the neutral point of view policy. It was blatantly biased at one point in favor of Singh, now it is mostly neutral. By removing words like "militant", we are tipping the scales once again toward being too pro-Singh. This man is not universally recognized as a martyr or a patriot, and the article needs to reflect that. — BrianSmithson 22:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

- I have no problem in having the word 'militant' in the article. My best wishes for you in making this world free from biases. As for your words, that Udham singh is not " universally" recognised as a martyr or a patriot , that needs to be decided NOT by you But by the universe itslef.

That universe is slowly but surely awakening now and it will decide its own martyrs and patriots ;Till then, may be this article can remain this way. Bharatveer 03:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)Bharatveer 03:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Is Brian Smithson English?. Udham Singh fought for injustice, didn't Europeans fight against the Nazis? Its seems that when any none European country fights injustice there is always someone like Brian Smithson who opposses it. As there was no war against the british's illegal occupation of india, great Krantikar's (freedom fighters) like Udam Singh had no choice but to take matters in their own hands.

I have respect for Gandhi but he was to soft with the British and the British took advantage of it. He led a non- violent struggle but innocent people still got murdered by the british and Gandhi forgave them.

If there was an armed struggle against the british indepence would have come much quicker, people would have been more prouder and Bharat(India) would have been a much better place. Bharatwasi —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.137.54.178 (talk • contribs).
 * No, I am not English. My stance is that the article needs to be written from a neutral point of view. I agree with you that the colonial era of world history was a travesty for the colonies. I agree with you that the massacre perpetrated by the British in India was inexcusable. However, saying such things in a neutral encyclopedia article is precisely the kind of thing that the neutral point of view policy was created to prevent. — BrianSmithson 20:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

"THE MYSTERIOUS MARTYR UDHAM SINGH whom we know very little about is truly the Son of India"

ADLER or ALDER St?
Did he live in ADLER St or ALDER St near Commercial Road? I live right next to Commercial Road, and as a Google Maps search will show (enter the post code "E1 1EE" in the search box) there is an ADLER St very close to Comm Road. But there is no ALDER St in London. Does anyone have any reliable information on this? --Peripatetic 00:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

In the police file (Mepo 3/1743 London PRO) it states that his address was 9 Adler street, Commercial Road, E.

Edit of caption to portrait
The caption to Udham singh's portrait allows a quick introduction to who he is, what he did, and what he is perceived as. The continued reverts by User:BrianSmithson seems vandalistic and an attempt to enforce his POV, or prevent the depiction of factual info on the claims that it is redundant. Caption used is not POV and argument made by Brian is baseless and hagulatory194.159.185.5 12:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Please read Vandalism before you go around throwing about accusations of it. I have no point of view on Udham Singh. Unfortunately, many others do, and they enjoy editing his article. There is no reason to include a bunch of redundant information in the caption to his picture; it is only an invitation to insert point-of-view terms such as "martyr" and "avenging" and weasel phrases like "regarded as". Who regards him as such, and why should their point of view be the one presented in the caption? Better to leave it at the bare minumum: His name, and preferably the date the photo was taken. This is how many, many, many Featured Articles on Wikipedia do things, including Rudolf Vrba, Felice Beato, Salvador Dalí, Paul Kane, Robert Lawson (architect), El Lissitzky, Sylvanus Morley, Benjamin Mountfort, Francis Petre, John Vanbrugh, Diego Velázquez, Roman Vishniac, Norman Borlaug, Georg Forster, Barbara McClintock, G. Ledyard Stebbins, Michael Woodruff, and David Helvarg. I got through the Education category and then realized it wasn't really necessary to go further because none of these Featured Articles has a caption remotely similar to the one you are trying to use for this article. They give very simple information: Name of the person pictured is always there, then sometimes the location where the image was taken (or the artist who painted the portrait), the date taken/painted, birth and death dates. Nothing else. Featured Articles represent Wikipedia's best practices. Sorry, but I'm reverting again. — BrianSmithson 12:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC

Compromise
It is neccessary to include what it is that Udham Singh did, and why it is that he did what he did, for it is very very very important part of the entire Indian Freedom Movement. I believe it is a compromise if we put in the caption what he did and why, without POV words (I ill not include the words martyr, or avenge but will say that he shot Dwyer who he saw as complicit in the Massacre). Laslty, Jallianwallah bagh is held the same in India (and I believe the world around) a Nazi extermination is in Europe, and I am not sure if you understand that. I will say even if it sounds like POV, but it is neccessary to emphasise this background.
 * I understand your opinion perfectly. My argument, however, is a stylistic one, outlined above. Wikipedia's cream-of-the-crop articles include no information other than bare basics, such as name and time of photograph. Why should this one be different? — BrianSmithson 22:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for discussing this. I do understand your argument. But the thing is, although other articles (the best ones) have no information, I don't think that's to say that including such info or background would rule out the article from improvement. Especially for a historical and controversial characters and issues, I think it helps to have such info as the reader would be able, at a quick glance (to the portrait for example) understand what the context is. Moreover, in the basence of information of when the protrait (specific to this case) was taken, I think merely putting Singh's name under the protrait would be bland and unaesthetic and would also be pointless.194.159.185.5 09:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Radical - as opposed to militant or patriotic
"militant nationalist" is a British POV. The opposite of it would be to use the word "patriotic nationalist" - which would be an Indian POV. Hence, I changed it to radical - which is a synonym for militant according to MS Word as "radical" is a more balanced word. Jvalant 04:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable. — BrianSmithson 05:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree. "Radical" has obvious negative connotations at have no place in an encyclopedia, and therefore I would argue to delete it. Wikipedia would be taking sides by using that term (the British POV - have you ever heard anyone call themselves radical lately?)

Shooting in Caxton hall
The details contained in this section do fullly reflect the account of the shooting given in witness statements, police records and the statements of Singh. No book was used to conceal his revolver, he kept it in his pocket this is attested to in the files. At the end of the talk Singh did indeed shoot O'Dwyer as he walked towards Zetland but the articel gives the impression that he did this while standing at the wall. Forensic evidence offered in the trial and statements from witnesses indicates that he shot O'Dwyer in the back from a distance of about nine inches away. The final statement that Singh did not attempt to escape and that he did not intend to escape is also not borne out by the records. Numerous witnesses attest to hearing a man shout "Make Way" and attempting to push through the crowd towards the exit. A woman threw herself on top of SIngh to slow him down as he tried to leave and she was then assisted by two men from the audience. I propose altering this section over the next day or two to reflect these facts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brenji (talk • contribs) 01:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

Trial and execution
There are two quotes that I have issue with in this section. The first is the one dealing with the shooting of Zetland. The quote is accurate up to the point of "there were a lot of women about, you know" the words "whom I wanted no harm do not appear in any copies of Singhs statement either in the Metropolitan Police report or in the court transcript. I propose deleting the addition as it does not reflect Singh's words. He may not have wanted to harm women but we do not need to point this out in a section that is claiming to directly quote him.

Secondly the quote dealing with his reason for assassainating O'Dwyer is wildly inaccurate. The words "I did it because I had a grudge against him. He deserved it." Can reasonably be attributed to Singh and appear in the statements Singh made to the police on the night of his arrest. The remainder of the quote appears to be the work of someones imagination. It certainly does not appear in the file referenced and does not appear in any other files I have seen dealing with Singh and the murder case. He did not say those words in court. Also the rhythm and fluency of the language is out of character with Singh's command of English. "For full 21 years, I have been trying to wreak vengeance. I am happy that I have done the job. I am not scared of death. I am dying for my country. I have seen my people starving in India under the British rule. I have protested against this, it was my duty. What a greater honor could be bestowed on me than death for the sake of my motherland." These are the words attributed to him and they seem far too polished and coherent for Singh. To provide an example here is an extract from a letter he wrote in prison.

"IN the Old bailey where I am going to the 23rd this month it might be a Indian Council as well I am not sure as yet. There will be lots of funs My dear I am just waiting for the time to come I will take it very gladly never waiting about it is nothing to me. I have seen many in 5 years when I was in Prison more than hundreds hanged since that I thought I would be the happiest if I met this sort of death – it takes only 2 minutes then off she goes." This comes from a letter he wrote on the 5th of April 1940 and can be found in file PCOM 9/872 in the national archive london. I want to delete the sections of these quotes which do not reflect the files and I also propose to add more detail as to the defence he offered and his closing statement after he was found guilty. There is also some intersting information about his time in prison and his execution which I shall add. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brenji (talk • contribs) 01:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC). Being incoherent in one piece of informal communication and being coherent during the course of a public trial are not mutually inconsistent. Many people have difficulty with grammar when writing but are flawless when speaking. Your "evidence" proves nothing. Udham Singh may have spent considerable time fine tuning his few words and delivered them perfectly when the opportunity arose. As a case in point, Neil Armstrong famous "giant step.." quote was pre-scripted for the occasion. The only way to resolve this situation is for a contributor to actually cite a definitive reference of Udham Singh's speech, e.g., trial transcripts. Otherwise benefit of doubt goes to this being a fabricated after-the-fact martyfication. Redblue 09:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Source needed
I removed this bit:

 * He would, also, later shave off his Sikh beard and not wear his turban to prevent detection from the authorities while he was on the hunt for Michael O'Dwyer. A sacrifice he felt the Sikh Gurus would forgive him for.

I don't dispute that it's true, but no source was cited. Per our reliable sources policy, we need sources for articles so as to allow others to check our facts. Can someone cite this statement so we can return it to the article? — Brian ( talk ) 23:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Describing Udham Singh
In this article, Udham Singh is being described as a Sikh Punjabi Marxist and nationalist. In fact, he was an Indian freedom fighter who followed extremism. It is totally absurd and irrelevant to mention whether he belonged to the Sikh community or not. For example, one wouldn't say Bill Clinton was a Christian US President. I am of the view that this description of Udham be changed to 'Indian freedom fighter". -- Sreejith Kumar (talk) 11:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sreejith Kumar since no one has responded to you for so long I thought I may. It looks like the changes you requested were finally made with small changes in wording. SumeetJi (talk) 13:16, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Shaheed Udham Singh was married or unmarried ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.19.5 (talk) 05:31, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

User: Hammersbach Please do not try to change the facts that Shaheed Udham Singh was a Kamboj. Do not change it to Dalit again and again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deepakkamboj (talk • contribs) 19:52, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * So it is your contention that Udham Singh was, in fact, not a Dalit? Hammersbach (talk) 18:34, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
 * He was not a kamboj. if he was a kamboj so why he was in Sikh Pioneers during ww1?????. answer this why, he was a dalit becasue Sikh Pioneers was for mazhbi and ramdasia[chamar] sikhs not for kamboj. don't chance the facts he was a dalit not kamboj. 163.53.253.80 (talk) 18:44, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If you have time please come at Sunam Punjab and clear your doubt after meeting with family Rajeevkmbj1 (talk) 12:40, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

The article refers to Udham Singh as a Marxist. Yet no sources have been provided to support or prove the claim of him being a Marxist. Revolutionary does not necessarily equate to Marxist tendencies — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kritikagrawal3square (talk • contribs) 10:49, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

"He was closely linked to communist activists and parties associated with the independence movement. " - Graham Beards (talk) 11:00, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Merge proposal
Plz add your comments here.
 * Merge: Seeing the few lines of current content of that article "Weapons used by Udham Singh", it is appropriate to merge it into Udham Singh article. Those few lines do not warrant a new article unless the contributor has some extended content going beyond multiple subsections (which I currently doubt). --Road Ahead  =Discuss= 16:49, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Shaheed Udham Singh was married or unmarried

Context
It's interesting that as the shooting happened in March 1940, the trial still went ahead even though the British were losing the Battle of France. Even more amazingly considering global events, that as the battle of Britain raged above Pentonville prison in London, the British government wasn't going to let Singh avoid the hangman's knot! With the Nazis poised to cross the channel at any time, it seems pretty vindictive that the British establishment had to kill him so quickly. For all they knew, the SS or the Gestapo would have been dispensing their own kind of brutal justice by August if the RAF had not done its job in defeating the Luftwaffe. The potential chance of invasion was not a reason for clemency in the eyes of the British justice system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.158.252.231 (talk) 17:41, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

intro
the formulation in the intro "...was an Indian Sikh independence activist.." is a bit ambiguos. it can be read that singh fought for the independence of the sikh from india (see khalistan movement) but obviously he was a sikh who fought for the independence of india from the UK.--Severino (talk) 20:36, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Was Mr. Singh a dalit or kamboj?
Recently, sort of, there has been some back-and-forth on the issue of whether or not Udham was a dalit or kamboj. One editor in particular is rather determined to state that he was kamboj and admonished me for trying to "change it again and again." (For the record, if one looks at the edit history you will find that I was reverting edits that were both grammatically incorrect and also in violation of Wikipedia policy, but I digress) The problem with the most recent change, made by this same editor, is that it references a book but does not give a page number. As always, this is frustrating for conscientious editors who are unnecessarily expected to research an entire book to find the appropriate factoid referenced. This is additionally compounded by the fact that there are other equally valid sources which contradict the assertion that he was kamboj but was a dalit. Anyway, my point is this, 1) whether or not this man was dalit or kamboj is a source of valid contention, be open-minded and impartial enough to accept that valid sources state both, 2) if you are going to reference something, reference it properly, and 3) if you are going to accuse someone of being incorrect and they respond to your accusation, be courteous enough to respond, not just continue to edit the article to your own particular POV. Thank you in advance for your appropriate and impartial editing, Hammersbach (talk) 02:33, 18 April 2017 (UTC) Thanks ou

Udham Singh was Kamboj. Here are the evidences: http://punjabi.net/talk/messages/45120/54898.html?1179035162 http://khalsaforce.in/shaheed-sardar-udham-singh-26-december-1899-31-july-1940 http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?menu=c10400&no=308182&rel_no=1 https://www.kambojsociety.com/category/kamboj-people/kamboj-martyrs/shaheed-udham-singh — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deepakkamboj (talk • contribs) 18:53, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

One more thing the reference given by you also attesting that Father of Shaheed Udham Singh was KAMBOJ by caste (dailt). https://books.google.com/books?id=0D-oQz3htaYC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=udham+singh+dalit&source=bl&ots=hesqcMmTlY&sig=OgA2v6Hvl-oBgp8KsYGNyShSqtg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS3vfeyLXTAhUn0oMKHVPcA4wQ6AEIYTAM#v=onepage&q=udham%20singh%20dalit&f=false

For your kind information KAMBOJ are not DALIT. KAMBOJ are Kshatriya (KAMBOJAS) and indo-aryan tribe which is very well attested by various historians on wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deepakkamboj (talk • contribs) 19:02, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

There is continuous effot by some people to claim Shaheed Udham Singh as DALIT or CHAMAR. User talk:Chamar1. We have change it back again to prove that he is KAMBOJ. and he belongs to JAMMY GOTRA / SUB-CASTE of KAMBOJ Caste/clan/community. There are so many news articles published about him. But some malacious people from other communities specilally DALIT or CHAMAR trying to keep on claiming by providing untruth / false facts. I am requesting the wikipedia to please look into this issue. If you want we can provide you 1000 of evidences about Shaheed Udham Singh was belongs to Jammu gotra of Kamboj clan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deepakkamboj (talk • contribs) 20:27, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

 * John 11:35. Caste does not exist, and a society that worships murderers has got problems so bad you don't even want to think about it. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:22, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
 * You prove nothing. he was a dalit not kamboj and also udham singh was his fake identity, his real name was sher singh. it may be added further that udham singh's father originally belonged to patiali village of Etah district of uttar pardesh who migrated to punjab in 1880. his father chuhar ram belonged to chamar sub caste but he got converted ti shikhism and adopted the name of Tehal singh. these facts are mentioned in a book titled "Etah Janpad ka itihas" " history of Etah Diatrict written by Sh. Chinatamani Shukla" and quoted by Dr. Rajpal Singh 'Raj' in his book referred to above. this facts is also mentioned in a book titled "Bharat me Samajik Parivartan Ke Prernashort" written by Sh.Mata Parsad Ex Governor of Arunachal Pradesh. Another book titled "Swantarta Sangram ma Achhuton ka Yogdan" written by D.C.Dinker also corroborates these facts and at the last Udham singh had worked in "32nd Sikh Pioneers" during ww1 which was only for mazhbi and ramdasia[chamar] sikhs. so he was not a kamboj. 163.53.253.80 (talk) 19:20, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You prove nothing. he was a dalit not kamboj and also udham singh was his fake identity, his real name was sher singh. it may be added further that udham singh's father originally belonged to patiali village of Etah district of uttar pardesh who migrated to punjab in 1880. his father chuhar ram belonged to chamar sub caste but he got converted ti shikhism and adopted the name of Tehal singh. these facts are mentioned in a book titled "Etah Janpad ka itihas" " history of Etah Diatrict written by Sh. Chinatamani Shukla" and quoted by Dr. Rajpal Singh 'Raj' in his book referred to above. this facts is also mentioned in a book titled "Bharat me Samajik Parivartan Ke Prernashort" written by Sh.Mata Parsad Ex Governor of Arunachal Pradesh. Another book titled "Swantarta Sangram ma Achhuton ka Yogdan" written by D.C.Dinker also corroborates these facts and at the last Udham singh had worked in "32nd Sikh Pioneers" during ww1 which was only for mazhbi and ramdasia[chamar] sikhs. so he was not a kamboj Yash1110 (talk) 19:26, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

 * You are commenting all over the places except here. Bring scholarly sources with working links. Note that people like "Sh.Mata Parsad Ex Governor of Arunachal Pradesh" are not historians hence not reliable. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 19:34, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * if he was a kamboj so why he was in 32nd Sikh Pioneers??????????why, because Sikh Pioneers was noly for Mazhbi and Ramdasia sikhs not for kamboj sikhs. Yash1110 (talk) 19:45, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

The above Google Book link you stated itself belongs to Dalit history not Kamboj history. Below are some links which will clarify that he was a Dalit or lower caste not Kamboj, an upper caste. ( https://m.hindustantimes.com/chandigarh/udham-singh-became-a-villain-in-britain-and-a-hero-in-india/story-KPx7gRgVio8IaqwcW3KmcN.html )

(https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/25/books/review/patient-assassin-anita-anand.html )

(https://indianexpress.com/article/lifestyle/books/udham-singh-book-review-the-patient-assassin-anita-anand-5893133/ )

(https://revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv7n1/SinghAzad.htm )

All these links clearly asserts he was a lower caste or Dalit. ChamarVeer (talk) 20:09, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Here are the pieces of evidence to prove that Shaheed Udham Singh was born in Kamboj family.

1. Please find the excerpt from the book Anita Anand's book 'The Patient Assasin: A True Tale of Massacre, Revenge and the Raj' where she has clearly mentioned Shaheed Udham Singh as KAMBOJ orphan.

2. This is an undisputed fact that Shaheed Udham Singh was born in Kamboj family. Please find below the information granite stone of Shaheed Udham Singh Olympic Stadium at Sunam, the birthplace of Shaheed Udham Singh clearly states that He was born in the Kamboj community.

3. The remains of Shaheed Udham Singh were brought from London to his native place Sunam by vigorous efforts of All India Kamboj Mahasabha. The All India Kamboj Mahasabha had held several meetings in the states of Haryana, Punjab and Uttar Pradesh to discuss bringing back the ashes of martyr Udham Singh from London. The special delegation of All India Kamboj Mahasabha met cabinet ministers from both Punjab and the central government. Karta Ram Kamboj was National Presiden and Nanak Chand Kamboj was the National General Secretary of All India Kamboj Mahasabha. As National General Secretary, Nanak Chand Kamboj communicated through letters with the Punjab State Government and the Central Government to bring the abode of martyr Udham Singh from London to the place of birth. He then held a meeting with cabinet ministers of the Punjab government and met the then CM of Punjab, Giani Zail Singh. The delegation also met India's Prime Minister Indira Gandhi. Nanak Chand Kamboj approached Aas Kaur Kamboj, the distant cousin of Shaheed Udham Singh and made a file of documents from lawyers to get the relics from the British government. Both the Punjab government and the central government agreed to the proposal to bring the remains of the martyr Udham Singh of the All India Kamboj Mahasabha from London. But the central government said they will send a government delegation to London. Sadhu Singh Thind was an MLA in the Punjab government and was a renowned community worker. The All India Kamboj Mahasabha decided to lead the government delegation. A delegation from the government and the All India Kamboj Mahasabha led by Sadhu Singh Thind was sent to London and received the casket of martyr Udham Singh on 18 July 1974. Karta Ram Kamboj, Nanak Chand Kamboj, Seth Panna Lal, Hardayal Singh Kamal, Banwari Lal Kamboj, Dr. Jiya Lal Kamboj, Saroj Kamboj (wife of Nanak Chand Kamboj) and Kishori Lal Kamboj from the All India Kamboj Mahasabha was at Delhi Airport to receive the casket. Then Arrangements were made by the All India Kamboj Mahasabha in a joint meeting with the Cabinet of the Punjab Government to keep the remains at Kapurthala House, New Delhi. Indira Gandhi, Shankar Dayal Sharma and Giani Zail Singh paid tribute to Shaheed Udham Singh at Kapurthala House. A procession was taken from Delhi to Sunam with a casket of martyr Udham Singh's remains so that everyone could see him. Two cars and a bus of the All India Kamboj Mahasabha, Delhi office bearers, marched from Delhi to Sunam. There was a grand reception in huge processions at various places in Delhi, Haryana, Punjab and Uttar Pradesh. Shaheed Udham Singh's ashes were cremated on 31 July 1974 in Sunam.

4. The below video has an appeal from the relatives of Shaheed Udham Singh clearly stating that Shaheed Udham was born in Kamboj family of Jammu gotra. Giani Jail Singh then Chief Minister of Punjab state and later on President of India had declared Aas Kaur as the cousin and only living relative of Shaheed Udham Singh. You can see the photograph of Aas Kaur with Giani Jail Singh in the video. The grandson and great-grandson of Aas Kaur have stated in this video that Shaheed Udham was born in Kamboj family of Jammu gotra. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BmahanEzC0

5. All India Kamboj Mahasabha has installed around 40 statues of Shaheed Udham Singh in the state of Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, Uttara Pradesh and Uttarakhand. And these statues has written his name as Shaheed Udham Singh Kamboj and these statues were inaugurated by Chief Ministers of states or Ministers of states.

All the above points clearly assert the undisputed fact that Udham Singh was born in the Kamboj family of Jammu Gotra.

Deepakkamboj (talk 13:09, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Udham Singh became a villain in Britain, and a hero in India

Chandigarh News Published on Apr 10, 2019 02:05 PM IST Legend has it Udham Singh, a low-caste Sikh boy from Sunam, who, after his railway crossing watchman father’s death was taken in by the Central Khalsa Orphanage at Amritsar, was present at the at the massacre site. Udham Singh was belong to Low caste not kamboj and it’s also published in Hindustan times Maheshk947 (talk) 03:05, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Anita Anand book
Now being reviewed Bashereyre (talk) 13:31, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Full protected
He was born in Sikh KAMBOJ caste. HarshitKamboj (talk) 10:32, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Page is unprotected, you can make WP:BOLD edits to it. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 19:17, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Udham Singh's ancestory
I am providing a quote from the most in-depth academic source that I could locate about the family background of Udham Singh, whose birth name was Sher Singh. Its author is a professor and head of the Department of Punjab Historical Studies in Punjabi University (see here).

Here is another academic source, although it mentions about Udham Singh in passing:

But I couldn't find any WP:HISTRS source which mentions that he was a Koli. In January, a newbie added a ref to support his Koli ancestry, but that source seems to be non-existent, let alone being a scholarly one. That account became inactive after making some edits. And now an IP hopper is edit-warring over it, e.g. see here, here & here. As there is no way to engage this anon at one user talk page, I asked them in my edit summary to provide the full citation as well as the ISBN of the supposed source, but to no avail. So the Koli-related claim should be removed unless someone can provide a reliable source. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:15, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

When I commented here last time more than a year ago, a confirmed sock was trying to add Koli claim based on unreliable/non-WP:HISTRS sources. Now when alerted about Koli-related stuff, I noticed that the same disruption has started again here and elsewhere. When reverted the newbie's unreliable claim, they added the Koli bit again after providing a misleading edit summary:. So I will revert them.

Note that I have again searched about Singh's caste and found multiple scholarly sources mentioning his caste as Kamboj, but couldn't find even a single scholarly or reliable source which mention them as Koli. Here is one such academic source:

In fact, the book cited in this article also mentions him as Kamboj:

Even the locally published books from Indian scholars mention him Kamboj. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:17, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

 * Please replace 'Koli' with 'Kamboj'. There are enough WP:RS sources now. And refrain from adding WP:SYNTH in the article. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
 * , I have removed the unreliable Koli claim, but you or others can add the Kamboj claim, as this is pretty much the only reliable claim about his caste. In either case, the page will require protection. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:11, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:13, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

---
 * Bring a scholarly WP:RS source here in this discussion in support of your arguments instead of writing "He was not a kamboj. if he was a kamboj so why he was in Sikh Pioneers during ww1?????. answer this why, he was a dalit becasue Sikh Pioneers was for mazhbi and ramdasia[chamar] sikhs not for kamboj. don't chance the facts he was a dalit not kamboj" in this. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:52, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2021
Sunnypama (talk) 15:32, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

In the early life section of the page, it should be changed from Udham Singh was born into a 'Dalit Sikh family' to 'Kamboj Sikh family'.

As Udham Singh Kamboj as a surname is Kamboj caste, which belongs to Kamboj caste, landowner caste, and Kshatriya tribe, not Dalit.

Sources: https://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Kamboj https://www.thekamboj.com/who-are-kamboj/ Sunnypama (talk) 15:32, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:53, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 October 2021
O'Dwyer's rank at the time of the massacre was 'acting Brig Gen' which has been erraneously mentioned as Col. Kindly correct the same. 2402:3A80:1F81:957E:0:0:9E7:38D0 (talk) 06:42, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:30, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 October 2021 (2)
Include the following item in the last section (Legacy)

A movie Sardhar Udham was released in 2021. 49.206.55.207 (talk) 16:50, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:31, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021
Citation required for "Marxist".

The article refers to Udham Singh as a Marxist in the opening. No source has been cited. Singh was a revolutionary but not necessarily a Marxist. At least a citation required tag must be added or the word Marxist could be replaced with Socialist (Singh was an integral part of HSRA) [|HSRA]. While HSRA was socialist, it is difficult to prove their Marxist tendencies since no historical sources have been cited for the same, and the only link pertaining to Marxism on HSRA Wiki page leads to this page the reliability of which can not be verified

 * I have added a citation from the Open University- Graham Beards (talk) 11:59, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2021
Baisakhi is not a Hindu holiday - it is Sikh only - these are two separate and distinct religions. It should be corrected because Baisakhi celebrates the birth of Sikhism. No Hindu affiliation at all. Remove ‘hindu’ 2603:7000:3800:DF:451A:29C:AD4D:40BF (talk) 14:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Corrected. Thank you.Graham Beards (talk) 14:46, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2021 (2)
please change Singh concealed a revolver inside a book, which ad pages cut in the shape of a revolver to Singh concealed a revolver inside a book, which had pages cut in the shape of a revolver Trupthichougule (talk) 22:38, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:38, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2021
Please edit the following: In Singh's diaries for 1939 and 1940, he occasionally misspells O'Dwyer's surname as "O'Dyer", leaving a possibility he may have confused O'Dwyer with General Dyer.[12]

This sentence should be removed.

There is clear evidence (in recent books and movies) that Shaheed Udham Singh very much knew the difference between the two men and he learned when he came to London in 1933 that Dyer died in 1927. It is very common for individuals whose first language is not English to spell names phonetically. Additionally he knew extremely well that O’Dwyer order all the draconian laws in Punjab at the time and that he had direct responsibility of picking Dyer as the commander to squash the protestors. 2600:4040:4000:E600:24C2:A6F:6FEF:ECA7 (talk) 01:43, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:47, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2021 (2)
The fact that Udham Singh was a Sikh and actually an amrithari Sikh is very relevant and should be mentioned when describing him. His faith and the events of the massacre in Amritsar of predominately Sikhs who were there to celebrate Vaisaki and protest the draconian laws were pivotal in him becoming a revolutionary and meeting other revolutionaries like Bhagat Singh (another Sikh) whom he revered a great deal. Calling him simply Indian doesn’t do justice to him as a person and his experience. 2600:4040:4000:E600:24C2:A6F:6FEF:ECA7 (talk) 01:57, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Please provide a reliable published source for this. Graham Beards (talk) 08:41, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 November 2021
2001:56A:712A:B00:1862:CBD3:61CE:B62F (talk) 18:19, 6 November 2021 (UTC) Executed by hanging. Should be. Murdered by hanging
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Was tried by a court. Unjust or not it was clearly an execution Cannolis (talk) 18:37, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2021
2607:FEA8:4EDF:BE10:6C8D:454C:4B9:167B (talk) 01:20, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Udham singh is from Kamboj caste (Farming) Kamboj people are from Khastriya varna (Warriors) please see the Kambojas people Udham Singh was not from low caste
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:26, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Mistaken identity- Udham Singh is a Kamboj not low caste
Kamboj are farmers in punjab region 2500 years ago there was a Kamboja kingdom Mahajpanda- Kamboj people were of Khastriya Varna Hence he is not a low caste Sunam area is populated by many Kamboj Farmers 2607:FEA8:4EDF:BE10:6C8D:454C:4B9:167B (talk) 01:23, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Marxist
Is there a source that explicitly states Singh was Marxist/Marxist-Leninist or are we relying on WP:BLUESKY here (since he was part of Marxist organizations)? Should this article be added to the Indian Marxists category or WP:SOCIALISM? (Note that I am not very familiar with the subject... and also a bit confused on how WikiProjects work. Hey, I’m new.) postleft ✍ (Arugula)  ☞ say hello!  00:26, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes he was a Marxist, the page must be added to the section on Indian Marxists Abcd amureet (talk) 11:18, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

 * Require scholarly WP:RS source(s) which explicitly say that he was a 'Marxist'. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:26, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Venkat TL (talk) 12:56, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

 * The Wire is a "news and opinion website". WP:HISTRS scholarly sources will be required in my opinion. Also the lead sentence should be succinct and demonstrate the most commonly known attribute of the subject, which is certainly not the case in this revision of it, which removed his nationality and added bias in the form of the phrase "a radical anti-colonial revolutionary". These can be reworded and added in subsequent sentences, though WP:HISTRS scholarly sources would be of preference. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:13, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Fylindfotberserk, the authors are scholars from JNU. I see nothing unusual in the statement. I am sure more WP:HISTRS can be found. I did not know this was for lead. I think this can be included in the body. Venkat TL (talk) 13:34, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah in the body. I said WP:HISTRS because most of the article seems to be sourced from such references. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:03, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

so let's add radicals, in politics, who seek radical change in social order (through revolution). And we know that he was very inspired by Surat Ali and Gadar Party of Sohan Singh Bhakna., Udham was an activist of CPGB Trade Union, IWA... he was undoubtedly a staunch Marxist revolutionary so there is nothing unusual about it it is usual and unquestionable Abcd amureet (talk) 08:44, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

 * WP:HISTRS sources for this. Plus per MOS:CONTEXTBIO, "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases". The subject is most notable for being an Indian revolutionary known for assassinating Michael O'Dwyer. The influences on him, the 'radical' part and other things can be added in subsequent lines and/or in the article body. Please propose a paragraph with HISTRS sources supporting it, taking MOS:CONTEXTBIO into consideration. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:37, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

An Indian Marxist revolutionary, most notable for the assassination of Michael O'Dwyer. Abcd amureet (talk) 15:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

 * OK, the current lead says → Udham Singh (born Sher Singh; 26 December 1899 — 31 July 1940) was an Indian revolutionary belonging to Ghadar Party and HSRA, best known for assassinating Michael O'Dwyer, the former lieutenant governor of the Punjab in India, on 13 March 1940, so you want to add Marxist between 'Indian' and 'revolutionary' is it? Pining - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:13, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Fylindfotberserk, The article does not even mention Marxist once. We have a quote for Communist above. @Abcd amureet instead of focussing on the lead please suggest an edit in the body first. I think it will be awkward to use a word in the first line, without mention in the article. Venkat TL (talk) 16:44, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the word is not mentioned in the source above There are many other sources Well, I'll make some suggestions for the main body of the article when I have time, then only I would get to the heading Abcd amureet (talk) 17:38, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

To limit Udham Singh to killing O'Dwyer is an insult to a revolutionary like him. He was not only O'Dwyer's assassin, but he was an active member of the Ghadar Party who participated in the efforts to liberate the homeland through revolution for nearly two decades and endured everything from imprisonment to unspeakable torture for it. He was a first-class man who could carry his consciousness above religion and caste. In his last speech to the court he stated that his fight was not against the British people, he had full sympathy with the British workers, his fight was against the British Government. It goes without saying that this consciousness comes from a deep sense of internationalism. Although the oath he had taken twenty-one years earlier to kill O'Dwyer was initially the product of burning anger, time, experience and revolutionary education had tempered the iron of that vengeance into steel. When Udham pulled the trigger on O'Dwyer at Caxton Hall two decades after taking the oath, it was not mere revenge. At this meeting Zetland, the bullets aimed at the O'Dyers were not only a revenge for Jallianwala Bagh, but the shrill voice of Udham Singh's Smith & Wessen, just five hundred meters away from the British Parliament, was also a thunderous protest against imperialism. Camarada internacionalista (talk) 03:07, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2021
Change 'General Dyer' to 'Colonel Dyer' as he was never a general (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Dyer) Terraform68 (talk) 10:14, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * He is usually referred to by his temporary rank title of General see .Graham Beards (talk) 10:25, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Why not Martyr?
His name on wikipedia is reffered as udham singh not Shaheed Udham Singh. He was a true freedom fighter who gave his entire life for the independence movement of india against the brutality of British government. He is indeed a martyr and his name must be reffered as "Shaheed Udham Singh" on this website or everywhere else. Mjbadesha (talk) 17:26, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Hello, Mjbadesha! I understand your thinking, but Wikipedia must stay neutral, without taking a stand on whether or not Singh was a hero, freedom fighter, martyr, etc. These are loaded terms and contentious labels that give an opinion on the subject, which is not neutral. There is guidance on this topic here. I hope this helps :-) Welcome to Wikipedia and happy editing, postleft ✍ (Arugula)  ☞ say hello!  17:48, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Udham Singh Jatav
Udham Singh Jatav Ji is a great person. 2409:4053:18E:2CC1:1F16:5D71:FF93:836E (talk) 02:16, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Udham Singh life
In Hindi 47.9.174.207 (talk) 12:02, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

What is the caste of udham Singh??
Udham Singh ji belongs to Jatav or Jatava caste which we know nowadays as Chamar 202.142.122.130 (talk) 14:05, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Udham Singh belonged to Chamar caste
Yes. It is true and mentionable that Shaheed Udham Singh belonged to the caste Chamar. In the Indian constitution the caste Chamar is taken under Scheduled Castes category. Udham Singh, also known as Shaheed Udham Singh, was a prominent figure in the Indian independence movement. It is historically accurate to state that he belonged to the Chamar caste, which is a Dalit community in India. The Chamar caste has faced social discrimination and marginalization for centuries, enduring caste-based prejudice and unequal treatment. Udham Singh's caste background played a significant role in shaping his experiences and the challenges he faced during his lifetime. Despite the systemic oppression faced by his community, Udham Singh rose above the barriers of caste to become a fierce freedom fighter and revolutionary. His unwavering determination and commitment to justice and equality drove him to take a stand against British imperialism and colonial rule. Udham Singh's actions and sacrifice continue to inspire people today, highlighting the resilience and courage of individuals from marginalized communities who fought for the liberation of their nation.

If there is still a need to provide evidence that Udham Singh belonged to the Chamar caste or Ravidasia Community, please consider the following points:

1. Personal accounts : According to some personal accounts, Udham Singh was a Chamar by caste. For example, in his autobiography, the Dalit leader Dr. B.R. Ambedkar mentions that Udham Singh was a Chamar and had been involved in the Jallianwala Bagh massacre. Similarly, some contemporary newspaper reports referred to Udham Singh as a Chamar.

2. Social context : Udham Singh was born in Sunam, Punjab in 1899, during a time when caste discrimination was still prevalent in Indian society. Chamars were considered to be part of the "untouchable" or Dalit caste, which faced significant discrimination and social exclusion.

3. Surname : Udham Singh's surname, "Singh," is commonly associated with members of the Sikh community, many of whom come from traditionally low-caste backgrounds. It is possible that Udham Singh's surname was adopted as part of a process of social mobility or assimilation into the dominant Sikh community.

4. Birth Certificate : Udham Singh's birth certificate, which is available in the archives of the British Library, states that he was born on 26 December 1899 in Sunam, a town in the Sangrur district of Punjab. The certificate identifies his father as Tahal Singh, who was a watchman, and his mother as Jagan Kaur. In many parts of India, including Punjab, the surname "Singh" is commonly used by people belonging to the Chamar caste.

5. British colonial records : The British colonial authorities in India maintained detailed records of caste and religion for administrative purposes. Several official records from the colonial era, including census reports and police records, describe Udham Singh as a Chamar.

6. Udham Singh's own statements : In several interviews and speeches, Udham Singh himself acknowledged that he was born into a Chamar family. For example, in a letter he wrote from jail to a friend in 1928, he refers to himself as a "Chamar by caste."

7. Social and political context : In early 20th century India, caste was a deeply ingrained social institution that determined a person's place in society. Discrimination and segregation on the basis of caste were widespread, and the Dalit castes, including the Chamars, faced systemic oppression and marginalization. Given this context, it is likely that Udham Singh would have been aware of his caste identity and its implications.

Taken together, these pieces of evidence suggest that Udham Singh was indeed born into a family of the Chamar caste which is also known as Jatav or Ravidasia caste or community. Rakshit Banjaria (talk) 12:30, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

 * Hi, Rakshit! Do you have any secondary sources that document Udham Singh’s caste and its importance? For more information on what constitutes an appropriate source for this information, please see Reliable sources. I’m only one editor, but this is a very contentious topic and I would advise to consult only the highest-quality sources that can prove Udham Singh’s caste is highly important to his life and legacy. If there is no such coverage in sources, it should not be included in the article.
 * I also note the article already mentions (very briefly) that Singh was born to a family of the Kamboj caste. This information is cited to some pretty good sources, so there may be uncertainty about his caste background. That may require a higher bar of sourcing or for language indicating uncertainty to be introduced into the article.
 * Please also be aware of General sanctions/South Asian social groups. This is not a threat, but merely a heads-up to be particularly careful in caste-related topic areas. Cheers and happy editing, postleft ✍ (Arugula)  ☞ say hello!  15:35, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Respected,
 * Thank you for your prompt response. I appreciate your consideration in updating Udham Singh's caste details. In order to provide you with secondary sources documenting Udham Singh's caste and its importance, I have gathered the following information:
 * Kamboj Sikhs do not come under Bhatra Sikhs (also known as Bhat Sikhs), Untouchables, Dalit Community, or Scheduled Caste as per the Indian Constitution.
 * Reference 1:' "Reference 1.1 A Study of the Sikh Community in Leeds and Bradford" by "Sewa Singh Kalsi" To "Department of Theology and Religious Studies at the University of Leeds, January 1989" ; Reference 1.2 : This scholarly work extensively explores the life and background of Udham Singh and his caste in Sikh community, providing detailed insights into his caste affiliation as Chamar. The author's research is based on reliable historical records and interviews with experts in the field.
 * Reference 2:' Bhatra Sikhs – Ref_2.1; Ref_2.2 : The above 'Reference 1', states Udham Singh as a Bhatra Sikh (also known as Bhat Sikhs), and Bhatra Sikhs are also a part of Chamar or Ravidassia Community. This also states that the Kambojas not considered as Untouchable or Dalit. This delves into the social significance of the Chamar caste, highlighting its historical context and contributions to society. It draws upon various primary sources such as historical texts, official records, and ethnographic studies to establish the accuracy of Udham Singh's caste as Chamar or Ravidassia Community.
 * Reference 3: Ref_3.1 and Ref_3.2: This article clearly states Udham Singh as a Dalit and Chamar. This article published in a respected news source discusses Udham Singh's background and specifically mentions his caste as Chamar which is considered as a Dalit or Untouchables kept under Scheduled Caste category in Indian Laws. The piece includes interviews with Udham Singh's family members and local community members who affirm his caste identity.
 * By referring to these secondary sources, it becomes evident that Udham Singh's caste is accurately documented as Chamar or Jatav or Ravidassia Caste or Community. I hope this information satisfies your requirement for secondary sources, and I kindly request you to update the information accordingly.'
 * If you have any further questions or require additional information, please let we know. We look forward to the successful resolution of this matter.
 * Thank you for your attention.
 * Sincerely,
 * Rakshit Banjaria Rakshit Banjaria (talk) 08:36, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Udham Singh belonged to Chamar caste : References Provided
The references requiring to update the caste details of Saheed Udham Singh are being provided. Please update it to its correct version of the source.

In order to provide you with secondary sources documenting Udham Singh's caste and its importance, I have gathered the following information: Kamboj Sikhs do not come under Bhatra Sikhs (also known as Bhat Sikhs), Untouchables, Dalit Community, or Scheduled Caste as per the Indian Constitution.

Reference 1: "Reference 1.1 A Study of the Sikh Community in Leeds and Bradford" by "Sewa Singh Kalsi" To "Department of Theology and Religious Studies at the University of Leeds, January 1989" and Reference 1.2 : This scholarly work extensively explores the life and background of Udham Singh and his caste in Sikh community, providing detailed insights into his caste affiliation as Chamar. The author's research is based on reliable historical records and interviews with experts in the field.

Reference 2: Bhatra Sikhs – Ref_2.1 and Ref_2.2 : The above 'Reference 1', states Udham Singh as a Bhatra Sikh (also known as Bhat Sikhs), and Bhatra Sikhs are also a part of Chamar or Ravidassia Community. This also states that the Kambojas not considered as Untouchable or Dalit. This delves into the social significance of the Chamar caste, highlighting its historical context and contributions to society. It draws upon various primary sources such as historical texts, official records, and ethnographic studies to establish the accuracy of Udham Singh's caste as Chamar or Ravidassia Community.

Reference 3: Ref_3.1 and Ref_3.2: This article clearly states Udham Singh as a Dalit and Chamar. This article published in a respected news source discusses Udham Singh's background and specifically mentions his caste as Chamar which is considered as a Dalit or Untouchables kept under Scheduled Caste category in Indian Laws. The piece includes interviews with Udham Singh's family members and local community members who affirm his caste identity.

''By referring to these secondary sources, it becomes evident that Udham Singh's caste is accurately documented as Chamar or Jatav or Ravidassia Caste or Community. I hope this information satisfies your requirement for secondary sources, and I kindly request you to update the information accordingly.''

If you have any further questions or require additional information, please let we know. We look forward to the successful resolution of this matter.

Thank you for your attention. Sincerely, Rakshit Banjaria Rakshit Banjaria (talk) 11:04, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

 * Except one, all the sources are unreliable (Wikis, news articles, WP:UGC, etc). The one that can be looked at is this one, but nowhere in the article it is said that Udham Singh belonged to Chamar caste or any link with Bhatra Sikhs is established, not mention "Bhatras" are not described as "Chamar" either. It is a clear case of original research. Secondly, Sewa Singh Kalsi is not a historian. As for your recent additions, wither they are news sources, portals or books from obscure publications in Delhi, written in Hindi, unverifiable and un-scholarly. The WP:STABLE version uses scholarly work from Cambridge University Press, Charles Scribner's Sons University of California Press, among others. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:58, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Udham Singh Belonged to Chamar caste and wrote himself as Mohammad Singh Azad

 * Sources: Ref1 Rakshit Banjaria (talk) 19:02, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Keep the discussion here. The source is not WP:RS (reliable). Find WP:HISTRS compliant sources from major publication houses. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 19:10, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 August 2023
Sunam is not to the south but south east of lahore 84.62.252.221 (talk) 19:59, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: It's unclear what you want editors to do, and you must support any desired changes with reliable sources. They may already be in the article, or they may not, but they need to be provided alongside the request regardless. — Sirdog (talk) 07:54, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Udham Singh


text:
Talk:Alginic acid

Untitled1
what is the formula of alginic acid? structure of the alginic acid? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.1.92.145 (talk) 06:50, 1 September 2005
 * ill add this next week. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.102.71.167 (talk) 07:17, 19 June 2006

Untitled2
Hi, how we can solublise an alginic acid? do you known any method? hanks in advance — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.108.43 (talk) 15:21, 4 February 2007

Untitled3
Hi.

In the text it states that alginate (which is the salt-form of alginic acid, NOT the same as alginic acid) is insoluble in water, but this is not the case. It does precipitate at low pH though. If you do a search for Alginate + solubility in google or in scientific litterature you'll see that the solubility varies with pH. I've worked with alginates for ~10 years and it is not a problem to dissolve commercially available alginates (i.e. from SIGMA) at least 20mg/ml in water. Even bacterial alginates from Azotobacter or Pseudomonas spp. with high molecular weight can be dissolved at this concentration, however they form extremely viscous solutions.

Tonje. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.241.81.234 (talk) 14:31, 24 July 2007

 * I am deleting the solubility reference in the article, as it is inaccurate. If someone wants to put it back they may feel free to provide a reference to justify doing so. --Steve D (talk) 14:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Untitled4
I propose deleting "Purified forms of alginate are used in antacid preparations such as Gaviscon®, Bisodol®, Asilone®, and Boots Own® tablets."

looks naff should read is used in many pharmaceuticals as part of a modified release system. What does purified forms mean 90% 95% 99% Pharmaceuticals only use uncontaminated items anyway so purified seems a little superfluous. --130.36.75.21 11:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

chemicals
In the alglinic acid page the are lots of alginiate salts but dosen't actualy talk of alginic acid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ebe123 (talk • contribs) 10:44, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Biofilms
Alginate is a component of biofilms. That's biologically interesting, and also of clinical significance when the microorganisms are pathogens.

Alginate is the predominant polysaccharide formed by Pseudomonas aeruginosa, and is a significant cause of morbidity and death in cystic fibrosis. (NEJM 366:1978).

I don't have enough information about alginate biofilms to add it to the article now. Its role in cystic fibrosis isn't enough. --Nbauman (talk) 06:35, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Figure
In the current figure the G-monomer (Guluronic Acid) is represented in the unstable 4C1 conformation. The image should be re-drawn with the G-monomer in it's favored and more stable 1C4 conformation. This is actually not a trivial mistake as many of the properties of alginate are derived from this structural change. (viz. gelation by addition of divalent cations such as Ca2+.) The image's author is notified via the image's own talk page. This needs to be fixed though. El.vegaro (talk) 14:52, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I see the old figure has been removed and a new one with correct conformation replaced it. Very good. El.vegaro (talk) 08:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Acidity (pKa) is 1.5–3.5 according to wikipedia. Could this be harmful for Tooth Enamel?
If not used all the time, only once per week or something?

88.192.242.201 (talk) 08:31, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

THE FORMULA
What the #€77 is the formula?!?! -Muonium777 (talk) 13:56, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Alginic acid


text:
Abergynolwyn

Abergynolwyn (Mouth of the River with a Whirlpool) is a village in southern Gwynedd, Wales, located at the confluence of the Nant Gwernol and the Afon Dysynni. The population of the community which is named after the village of Llanfihangel-y-Pennant was 339 at the 2011 census.

History
Historically, the village was part of Merionethshire and its main industry was slate quarrying. The village was founded in the 1860s to house workers at the nearby Bryn Eglwys quarry. The quarry brought in migrant workers from other areas of Wales and at one time the village had an Anglican church and three nonconformist chapels. The slate was shipped to the coast on the Talyllyn Railway. A decline in the demand for Welsh slate caused reductions in the workforce, and the quarry finally closed in 1948. Today farming, forestry and tourism are the major local industries.

Talyllyn Railway
The village pub, the Railway Inn, is named after the Talyllyn Railway whose narrow gauge branch once reached into the heart of the village down an incline from a ledge on the hillside above. The railway now terminates at Nant Gwernol station above the village, although for many years the terminus was at Abergynolwyn station outside the village.

Road transport
The village is situated on the B4405 road, which passes through the centre, and is served by the G24 bus route. Ibn 2024, there are 5 buses per day to Tywyn and Machynlleth/Dolgellau on weekdays and 3 on Saturdays.

Local attractions
Llyn Mwyngil (Tal-y-llyn Lake), just upstream from Abergynolwyn is an unspoilt lake created when a massive landslide blocked the valley long ago. Hiking trails to the summit of Cadair Idris start from here. The Iron Age fort on Craig yr Aderyn shows that the area was strategically important in prehistoric times. In 1221, the mediaeval Welsh castle of Castell y Bere near Llanfihangel-y-pennant was built by Llewellyn the Great, occupied by the Welsh and later besieged by forces under Edward I of England in 1282.

title: Abergynolwyn


text:
User:Natalie611

ON THE DIFFICULTY AND LACK OF A COMPREHENSIVE SUPPORT NETWORK REGARDING THOSE PEOPLE WHO TAKE THE TIME TO MAKE ENITRIES INTO YOUR VERY CREATIVE YET DIFFICULT TO OPERATE APOSTATES: BEFORE I GIVE YOU MY SECOND ENTRY ON "APOSTATES" I WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON MY FIRST ENTRY TO YOUR WEBSITE  IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN BECAUSE OF THE LATE HOURS AT WHICH I AM MAKING THIS ENTRY, THAT I HAVE FOUND DIFFICULTY WITH YOUR WEBSITE HOWEVER I BELIEVE THAT IS NOT THE CASE. PLEASE ENDEAVOR TO MAKE THE ADJUSTMENTS TO ALLOW SURFERS WHO ARE WILLING TO MAKE A WRITTEN CONTRIBUTION EASY ACCESS.

AND NOW THE PURPOSE OF MY INITIAL ENTRY, I PREVIOUSLY MADE AN ENTRY REGARDING THE WORD APOSTATES, WHICH BY THE WAY,

I ORIGINALLY WROTE THAT THE WORD APOSTATES HAD BEEN DIRIVED FROM THE WORD APOSTLE, WHICH I MISTAKINGLY THOUGHT WOULD HAVE THE COMMON MEANING OF   " FOLLOWER" HOWEVER UPON FURTHER RESEARCH I HAVE COME TO FIND APOSTATE TO HAVE THE OPPOSITE MEANING OF "MAVERICK"- I TAKE LIBERTY IN USING THE WORD MAVERICK INSTEAD OF A MORE APPROPRIATE WORD SUCH AS "RENOUNCER " OR " BLASPHEMER ", WHICH WOULD BE MORE RECOGNIZABLE TO OUR INTELLECTUAL MEMBERS.

title: User:Natalie611


text:
Talk:Alpha Phi Delta

VFD Notification
This article was nominated for deletion on Aug. 25, 2005. The result of the discussion was KEEP. A record of the discussion can be found at Votes for deletion/Alpha Phi Delta. Tomer TALK 06:50, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Famous APDs?
I know that Dr. Phil DiStefano is an alumnus, and he is the chancellor of the University of Colorado. Do you guys know of any? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.173.240.92 (talk • contribs) 03:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I had added Stan Angelo, APD Temple alum and Chairman of Westinghouse Lighting. Would like to know who deleted it and why. Was this a question of documentation? He is a dues paying member, and will verify personally.Devitrob (talk) 03:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Rock musician Todd Rundgren is an honorary brother. Once I can source it, I'll add it to the page. I hadn't met him, but several brothers I was in school with at PSI chapter at Duquesne in the mid 1970's had met him once when he played at the Civic Arena, and they had the photos to prove it too .

Fgoron2000 (talk) 14:22, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I have always been of the understanding that Todd Rundgren was an Honorary Brother, since the days that I was in school in the 70's. He had performed at the Civic Arena, and several brothers did have backstage passes for the show. I've seen the photos with at least one brother with Todd. My understanding was that he was an honorary at that time, and that's how they got the passes. However, during a recent discussion on the APD Facebook page, it's been stated by other brothers that he is not an honorary, as he has never been inducted. So at this time, I will leave this off the main page here.

Fgoron2000 (talk) 22:30, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Notables
I am removing the following from the notables list until proper sources can be found. Rublamb (talk) 18:13, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Vincent D'Onofrio, Honorary, Actor, Law And Order: Criminal Intent, Full Metal Jacket, and Men in Black
 * Henry Mancini, Honorary, Academy Award-winning musician

title: Talk:Alpha Phi Delta


text:
Osorkon the Elder

Aakheperre Setepenre Osorkon the Elder was the fifth king of the 21st Dynasty of Ancient Egypt and was the first Pharaoh of Meshwesh (Ancient Libyan) origin. He is also sometimes known as Osochor, following Manetho's Aegyptiaca.

Biography
Osorkon the Elder was the son of Shoshenq A, the Great Chief of the Ma by the latter's wife Mehtenweshkhet A who is given the prestigious title of 'King's Mother' in a document. Osorkon was the brother of Nimlot A, the Great Chief of the Ma, and Tentshepeh A the daughter of the Great Chief of the Ma and, thus, an uncle of Shoshenq I, founder of the 22nd Dynasty. His existence was doubted by most scholars until Eric Young established in 1963 that the induction of a temple priest named Nespaneferhor in Year 2 I Shemu day 20 under a certain king named Aakheperre Setepenre—in fragment 3B, line 1-3 of the Karnak Priest Annals —occurred one generation prior to the induction of Hori, Nespaneferhor's son, in Year 17 of Siamun, which is also recorded in the same annals. Young argued that this king Aakheperre Setepenre was the unknown Osochor. This hypothesis was not fully accepted by all Egyptologists at that time, however.

Then, in a 1976–77 paper, Jean Yoyotte noted that a Libyan king named Osorkon was the son of Shoshenq A by the Lady Mehtenweshkhet A, with Mehtenweshkhet being explicitly titled the "King's Mother" in a certain genealogical document. Since none of the other kings named Osorkon had a mother named Mehtenweshkhet, it was conclusively established that Aakheperre Setepenre was indeed Manetho's Osochor, whose mother was Mehtenweshkhet. The Lady Mehtenweshkhet A was also the mother of Nimlot A, Great Chief of the Meshwesh and, thus, Shoshenq I's grandmother.

In 1999, Chris Bennett made a case for a Queen Karimala known from an inscription in the temple of Semna being his daughter. She is called both 'King's Daughter" and "King's Wife". Her name suggests she may have been Libyan. Given the date of the inscription (a year 14), she might have been the queen of either king Siamun or king Psusennes II. Bennett prefers a marriage to Siamun, because in that case she could have taken over the position of the Viceroy of Kush, Neskhons, as a religious figurehead in Nubia after the death of the latter in year 5 of king Siamun.

A faience seal and a block naming a king Osorkon with the names Aakheperre Setepenamun, Osorkon Meryamun, both in the Rijksmuseum van Oudheden in Leiden, were for a long time attributed to Osorkon IV; however, this attribution has been challenged by Frederic Payraudeau in 2000, who pointed out that those objects more likely referred to Osorkon the Elder. This would lead to the attribution to his throne name Aakheperre both the epithets Setepenre and Setepenamun.

Osorkon's time-line
Based on a calculation of the aforementioned Year 2 lunar date of this king – which Rolf Krauss in an astronomical calculation has shown to correspond to 990 BC – Osorkon the Elder must have become king two years before the induction of Nespaneferhor in 992 BC.

Osorkon the Elder's reign is significant because it foreshadows the coming Libyan 22nd Dynasty. He is credited with a reign of six years in Manetho's Aegyptiaca and was succeeded in power by Siamun, who was either Osorkon's son or an unrelated native Egyptian.

title: Osorkon the Elder


text:
Talk:Bob and Doug McKenzie

He blowed up real good
Was it Bob & Doug that did the celeb blow up - which ended in the phrase "He blowed up real good!"? The curate's egg 06:55, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

 * No, that was a different skit, with John Candy as Big Jim McBob and Joe Flaherty as Billy Sol Hurok. User:Jim slater307 18:07, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

"Beer Hunter"
The following text was contained on the disambiguation page Beer Hunter but has been removed since it does not comply with Manual of Style (disambiguation pages). It is preserved here in the event an editor wishes to modify it for inclusion in this article.

 * Beer Hunter is a humorous drinking game that is derived from the Russian roulette scene featured in the movie The Deer Hunter. One of the cans in a six-pack of beer is shaken violently so that it will produce an eruption of beer when opened. The can is mixed in with the others. Players wrap tee shirts around their heads and sit around the table. A MAU guy stands around waving a can of beer violently, shouting MAU, and slapping contestants occasionally. One-by-one each can is spun in the center of the table, and whichever player the beer points to must open it facing his ear. Other player simulate crying and shouting "Mikey, now they're gonna kill you!" Advanced players will use a "rat cage" which is a bathtub filled with warm water, beer and sometimes urine, into which a player who chickens out and ducks under an exploding beer is tossed. During the game all of the beer is consumed according to constantly changing rules, and the level of drunkenness of the players. This game was featured in a skit on the Bob & Doug McKenzie show.

End of entry. Accurizer 19:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Dave Thomas and Rick Moranis hate Bob and Doug
I thought I would start a discussion. In no uncertain terms does Dave Thomas in his book SCTV say he or Moranis like the characters in any way. He spends at least a chapter on them and most of it is bad mouthing. The biggest thing I got out of the article is how much they were overwhelmed by their new found publicity and the usual complaint about CanCon butting in as usual. This was a big shock to me because they are so beloved in Canada. I had remembered when an American reporter was shocked to discover Canadians loved them which goes to show that a) Canadians enjoy making fun of themselves and b) Americans are too touchy about racial issues. There was another incident when Moranis and Matt Frewer (aka Max Headroom) were being interviewed by Valerie Pringle CBC's Midday and she brought up Bob and Doug. Moranis immediately frowned. I wish I had the time and date of the interview because I would cite it as well.--75.6.138.88 03:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure: they may have distanced themselves from the characters during most of the 1990s, probably due to the reaction Dave Thomas got from the rest of the SCTV cast while writing his book. However, since then, Dave has encouraged Rick to do voiceover work for characters in Brother Bear closely resembling Bob and Doug, along with "The Animated Adventures of Bob and Doug McKenzie" which appeared in the bonus material for the 2002 Strange Brew DVD release.
 * There's also a "24th Anniversary" (since the theatrical release of Strange Brew) special set to air this weekend (May 20, 2007) on CBC Television, which might shed more light on their feelings with respect to the characters. According to an interview on The Hour, Dave states that he has convinced Rick to appear on camera for the first time in several years in character as Bob McKenzie. So perhaps most of the animosity towards the characters has faded in recent years. Then there's the following, from an article which appeared in Sun Media papers across the country in early April, 2007:
 * "The ensuing Hosermania had become a bit of a mixed blessing for Moranis and Thomas over the years, but absence has clearly made their hearts grow fonder. Their toques have been recreated for the occasion as has the memorable GWN set."
 * I'll have to re-read the relevant sections of Dave's book to say whether or not this article was more correct when it said they "disliked being typecast as the characters" or that they disliked the characters themselves (or at least they did at the time the book was written). But recent history would seem to show that they (or at least Dave) are quite proud of the characters they created. -- CODOR 21:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The DownFall
They eventually became unpopualr and were gone. Until 2009 when they had an animated t.v show

Call of the Loon
I think there should be some recording of their "Call of the Loon" in the article. I think it was available as a ringtone at one point. ForestAngel (talk) 12:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Is the "Quotes" section needed?
No. 99.184.247.185 (talk) 01:10, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I removed it. —Torchiest talkedits 02:09, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

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Calgary Winter Olympics TV special
Prior to the opening ceremonies of the 1988 Calgary Winter Olympics, Bob & Doug hosted a TV 1 hour special commissioned by the Federal Coordinating Office for the Calgary Olympics, produced by Lauron Productions (Toronto) producers: Christina Jennings, Ron Lille, Bill Johnston, & National Film Board of Canada, Sponsor Program Division, Executive producer, Jack Horwitz, which aired nationally on CTV during prime-time. Jack Horwitz (talk) 16:56, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bob and Doug McKenzie


text:
Starting Over (Speed album)

Starting Over Is Japanese J-pop girlband Speed's debut studio album released on May 21, 1997. It contains three singles: "Body & Soul", "Steady" and "Go! Go! Heaven" respectively. The album was hugely successful entering the Oricon Albums Charts weekly charts at number 1 for three consecutive weeks.

Track listing

 * 1) Walk This Way
 * 2) Body & Soul
 * 3) Luv Vibration
 * 4) STEADY
 * 5) RAKUGAKI
 * 6) Sayonara wa ame no hi (サヨナラは雨の日…)
 * 7) Go! Go!  Heaven
 * 8) I Remember
 * 9) Kiwi Love
 * 10) Happy Together
 * 11) Starting Over
 * 12) Starting Over: Walk This Way (Reprise)

title: Starting Over (Speed album)


text:
User:Sonkusre

Name - Pankaj R Sonkusre

title: User:Sonkusre


text: User talk:24.171.144.159

title: User talk:24.171.144.159


text:
Talk:Woronora Heights

Page move
This page was moved from "Woronora Heights" to "Woronora Heights, New South Wales" as per the naming convention set out at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places) -- Ianblair23 06:57, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Woronora Heights


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Crispin Webb

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Woohookitty 11:00, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Crispin Webb
nn artist, 26 unique Google hits for '"Crispin Webb" fluxus'. a search for "Crispin Webb" alone only returns 78 unique hits. His web site has an alexa ranking of 4,077,971. Zoe 06:58, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete as a copy vio from http://www.digitalsalon.com/weblog/archives/archive_2005-w16.php. --Apyule 07:27, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, nn artist. Although I don't think the alexa rank of his site is really relevant. Let's keep voting on whether we should have an non-copyvio article on the guy to avoid a second VFD. - Mgm|(talk) 08:23, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn, Do we want WP to be a Who's Who? DV8 2XL 13:10, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't we? As long as it's a NPOV Who's Who not a vanity Who's Who... Kappa 14:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * There's a difference between a Who's Who and a telephone directory. It is the latter that official policy dictates Wikipedia to be not.  The former, in contrast, has criteria for inclusion of biographies, just as we have. Uncle G 16:52:24, 2005-09-01 (UTC)
 * Delete. People must be notable to be in Who's Who - this chap is not. Proto t c 14:46, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn Dottore So 01:54, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Talk:Civil control of the military

Information added from Civilian oversight
I just added information that came from a student project but was added to a different article -- see: Talk:Civilian oversight of law enforcement BCorr | Брайен 14:56, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Is civil control of the military necessarily good?
Reading about Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and his purge following the attempted 2016 coup, I have just wondered whether too much civil control of the military could in some circumstances cause problems. Many authoritarian or illiberal leaders have faced opposition rather than support from the military. Thus a ruler seeking greater power and less democracy could potentially want to make the military less independent and less able to criticise the government. Luokehao (talk) 06:01, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Civil control of the military


text: User talk:68.45.4.118

title: User talk:68.45.4.118