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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cricket/Archive 6

List of English Test cricketers
I was going to put this on jguk's Talk page, but I think he deserves wider recognition so I'm putting it here: List of English Test cricketers is building into a tremendously useful page, especially for those of us who do a lot of biographical articles! So thank you very much - this is going to save me a lot of time and effort, and (even in its current incomplete state) deserves to be widely known about. Loganberry (Talk) 22:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

 * So good, you had to mention it twice at some point. ;) Have to agree, though, splendid work jguk! Sam Vimes 23:01, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

 * And thank you to you as well for expanding it so much of late! Loganberry (Talk) 15:01, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks! :) I've got a spreadsheet for doing it, though, so it hardly counts. ;) On this, though, Ian has done some splendid work on List of Australian Test cricketers, but unfortunately there's some inconsistent formatting. While I agree that including catches and stumpings are useful, the measure of an over has changed so much over time that using it will automatically result in problems. Someone who bowled 677 overs in the 1920s, for example, bowled more balls than someone bowling 800 overs in the 1990s. So I think we should have some kind of consistent formatting for these pages - which needn't be the option used on either page, but some kind of compromise. It needs to be done quickly, though, before we continue to add things Sam Vimes 20:36, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Must admit I rather prefer the Australian list's formatting on the whole, though it would be a shame to lose precise first and last Test dates. But I agree with you that it would be much better to use balls rather than overs throughout, especially since the Aussies had eight-ball overs until comparatively recently. Loganberry (Talk) 20:44, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I had the Aussie one half done in excel format from a project I was working on from some time ago. From memory the data came mostly from here and here.  I agree that balls would be preferable to overs (howstat reports overs), but I can't for the life of me find a table with that data.  You'd have to go to Crincinfo for each individual I suppose.  Unless someone can point to something specific, can we agree that we'll change the Aussie table to balls at some later time.  I had a go at including a few other columns like 50's and 100's for batsmen, and 5wkInns and 10wkmatches for bowlers but there was just not room as it started to get very cluttered.  As per formatting differences (career start/end dates, catches/stumpings, headings) it's a matter of opinion of course, but I think I prefer the Aussie table. - Ian ≡ talk 23:13, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Well - I think I've figured out a way of including the dates - take a look at User:Sam Vimes/Sandbox. That unfortunately removed maidens and runs conceded, but I don't think they're vital statistics. Point is that I'd like to get a format hammered out before we start on the other eight lists Sam Vimes 08:39, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Had a look at your Sandbox table, and I think it's very nice. As for balls bowled, I suspect that in the end those doing the tables will indeed have to go to Cricinfo for every single cricketer, which is going to be boring and tedious but I can't see any other way to do it. I'm happy to agree to make "balls" the aim but leave it in the Aussies' case until there's time to edit it. Loganberry (Talk) 15:22, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * That's the way I did it for the English - my spreadsheet means that it in fact it's rather quick to do, I can manage 40 in 15 minutes if I concentrate. Tedious, yes, but most tasks are in the end :) Sam Vimes 15:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry, but I think that the dates look awful! I can see why you've done it that way but I feel that a year would be adequate if they're going to have to look like 1877-03-15.  If someone wants more detail they can always click on the player name link.  I agree everything else though. -- Ian ≡ talk 02:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

List of cricket commentators
I've been working on an edit to the List of cricket commentators to make it look nicer and provide more useful information -- see User:Ngb/List of cricket commentators. Before I move it into the main articlespace I would value any edits from people who can fill in any missing information or add other well-known commentators, particularly about writers and commentators for non-English broadcasters and newspapers (who I have, unfortunately, only limited knowledge of). --Ngb 08:12, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Where's Foxy Fowler gone? The problem with this list is I imagine it'll be impossible to complete, though if expanded it would probably be quite an interesting list. I think "first-class playing career" should replace "professional playing career" - not because I'm a fan of Blowers and want his performances for Cambridge to be added, but because I imagine many amateur cricketers would have done some commentating in the early days, though I could be wrong, jguk 18:10, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Fixed on both counts. By 'impossible to complete' do you mean it will never be completed with every commentator, or never with full details of each commentator? In either case I think a near approximation is better than the blank list we have now. :) --Ngb 18:51, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * A point about the nationality flags you've used: I'd have thought that if we're going to use "cricketing countries", then we should use West Indies instead of Barbados, Jamaica etc; but if we're going to use "official nationalities" then the English people should be listed as British. Related to this, I'm not sure we can really say that the BBC, Sunday Times etc are distinctly English organisations. Loganberry Loganberry (Talk) 01:37, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I'd have used a 'West Indies' flag if there was one... --Ngb 22:21, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Wouldn't [[Image:West Indies Cricket Board Flag.png]] do? It's not strictly a "West Indies flag", but it's what we use for West Indian players.

 * Changed. --Ngb 08:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Photos of cricketers
I have an idea. I'm not sure if it can be a success but here goes. Since free images of cricketers are rare, I thought that those of us with digicams can click a snapshot (w/o flash) of a particular cricketer on TV. Poor quality yes, but at least we'll have an image. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  17:47, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

 * That is an interesting idea. On the same lines, there a lot of video clips of cricket matches floating around in the net. Even stills from them can be used. Tintin 17:55, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm wary of that, since I understand that under US law (which after all is what we're going by on Wikipedia) the "fair use" exemption is actually considerably narrower than most people think. I Am Not A Lawyer and all that, but as jguk mentions below, TV images are copyright the station. On a technical point, if anyone had a TV card on their computer, that would produce better pictures than a photo... though going back to the copyright point, I believe that in some cases at least, the higher the resolution of an image the less likely it is to be acceptable as "fair use". On top of all that, I wonder whether Wikipedia may at some point cry "enough" and insist that all images used are explicitly under a proper free licence, and say "no more fair use pictures". Loganberry (Talk) 22:20, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * came out pretty well. Too bad it cannot be used. Tintin 03:54, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * IIRC they already have tried to stomp down on it - there was a bit of a fuss about a month ago - but I can't remember where it was. Sam Vimes 22:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't know, but see the quote from Jimbo Wales I've mentioned in reply to jguk below; JW goes on to say, "As of today [19 May 2005], all *new* images which are "non commercial only" and "with permission only" should be deleted on sight." Loganberry (Talk) 22:31, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * That'd probably be the one I thought of, yes Sam Vimes 22:36, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

The TV station will have copyright on its images, and we can't claim fair use unless we're actually discussing the TV programme. Though, of course, we could have a picci of David Lloyd, say, and put the description "David Lloyd is now a cricket commentator for Sky Sports". Perhaps we should try writing to and/or emailing clubs and individuals to see if they would be willing to release something, jguk 17:59, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The main problem I can see with that is that very few organisations are likely to permit free commercial use of their pictures - and non-commercial-only pictures are not made welcome on Wikipedia. To quote Jimbo Wales himself: "All images which are for non-commercial only use and by permission only are not acceptable for Wikipedia and _will be deleted_."  Loganberry (Talk) 22:27, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

The comment under calls itself fair-use Tintin 05:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Hmmm... I don't know, to be honest. The fair use article has a lot of information, but it seems clear that much of what is generally assumed is not written down and has not been tested in the courts. Personally I don't intend to upload any pictures not under a clearly defined free-use licence, and I'd prefer it if we didn't use them, but if I'm in a minority there then I'm not going to go around deleting any that others put up unless there's a good reason to do so. Loganberry (Talk) 22:26, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * It's believed, AIUI, that a shot of a copyrighted TV program is only fair use to illustrate an article about that program -- so Image:Wcta-prematch.jpg would only be fair use if it was used in an article about the Nine Network's cricket coverage. Fair use is inherently dodgy as it's so ill-defined, so I now try to avoid uploading fair use stuff unless there is a cast-iron case as laid out at Fair_use. --Ngb 08:11, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Godfrey Evans
At 91 Tests, is Evans the most-capped player not to have a Wikipedia article? We should be ashamed of ourselves! One of the greatest wicket-keeper batsmen ever (along with Engineer and Gilchrist) - surely it's time we rectified this.

The lists of Test cricketers will probably throw up more anomalies like this. In the medium term, I think we should aim to have articles on all cricketers who have played at least one international match - but in the short-term, those who've played 10 or more Tests, say, should get articles, jguk 20:52, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Syed Kirmani is another (with 88) - clearly there's an anti-wickie systemic bias on the project. And yes, Evans is the most capped player without an article (though Desmond Haynes barely counts...he played 116 Tests, and all we care is four lines!) Sam Vimes 21:13, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I've made a stub for Evans. Could do with expansion. --Ngb 22:40, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

With Evans now added to Category:English test cricketers we have now reached the landmark of having articles on 200 English test cricketers, a total that includes all 75 test captains! jguk 08:10, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * A nice landmark! Looking at the list, though, I notice that the two articles at Jack Hearne (John William Hearne) and J. W. Hearne are about the same player. A merge would seem in order, but which article should be kept? Loganberry (Talk) 14:44, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

John Stephenson(s)!
A small problem is approaching with regard to John Stephenson... or rather, Stephensons. As things stand, the page is occupied by an American voice actor, but I think that since we have a John Stephenson (JP) who played Test cricket, "our" man is notable enough to get equal billing, so I've asked if anyone would object to having John Stephenson (voice actor) (currently a redirect page to John Stephenson) and John Stephenson (cricketer). However, there are three other John Stephensons who have played first-class cricket. Two didn't do very much so can safely be ignored, but the other (JWA) is more notable, since he captained Essex, for three games at the end of 1939. He also took 9-46 for the Gentlemen against the Players at Lord's in 1936, which I think is the best innings return by one of the Gents in this fixture. Some guidance on where he might be placed would be useful. Addition: apparently John Stephenson (actor) is preferred for the "other" JS, as he wasn't only a voice actor. Loganberry (Talk) 01:02, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * John Stephenson (actor), John Stephenson (Essex and England cricketer) for JP, John Stephenson (Essex cricketer) for JWA? John Stephenson (cricketer) could disambig between the two or simply redirect to JP. --Ngb 08:32, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Yeah, there are a few of those. From the list of England Test cricketers I can remember two David Smiths and two Jack Russells, too... Sam Vimes 08:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * And there are four international Mike Smiths: for England there are MJK of course, one-Test wonder AM Smith and ODI-only MJ, and there's also an MJ who's played ODIs for Scotland. Loganberry (Talk) 12:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * And there were there were 3 Edward A'Beckett's that played first-class cricket in Australia. Only 1 played in Tests. -- Ian ≡ talk 07:54, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

18th Century Cricket
I'm particularly interested in this era of the game's history and have nearly all the relevant sources. I would like to create a sub-category for it in the history section. Does anyone have any particular opinions about scope, approach, integration with other categories or projects?

--Jack 09:26, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I've made a start on this by creating History of cricket to 1700, which is already a well-developed article; and History of cricket 1701 - 1800, which is still a stub. Re the former of these, I've put together a lot more material and will shortly expand the article up to 1730.  This is the same document I've placed on the ACS site and it'll be updated on there too.

 * I'm also creating bio-stubs for the early cricketers. These can easily be included in the county categories but I think we should also have century categories.  So, while John Small (Hambledon cricketer) is in the English cricketers and Hampshire cricketers categories, I would also have an 18th Century cricketers category, or perhaps an underarm era category.  It would be a logical development to have a roundarm era category for such as Mynn, Pilch and Felix; then one for each of the later eras.  Anyone any thoughts about this suggestion?  --Jack 11:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

 * A 18th century cricketers category certainly sounds okay to me, though. One thing I can say from the History of cricket to 1700 article (which otherwise looks very good) - don't sign articles in the main namespace with four tildes to get your username up. It would be a right mess if everyone did that, for one thing, plus people who are interested can find out who wrote it through the edit history anyway. Sam Vimes 11:45, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Bowlers' Personal Stats
I think a bowlers height is key to the way they bowl. Today during the Ashes, Edgbaston test I had an urge to compare the heights of the English bowlers and I was shocked to find the BBC seems to be the only site that has height as a statistic. Consequently I've searched the web for the heights of all the bowlers I was interested in (Flintoff, Harmison, S Jones, Hoggard and Giles) and added a one sentance paragraph to each person giving their height, and I've added a 'height' variable to their repective InfoBoxs', (below picture), incase this row is added to the template later. As indicated on Template_talk:Infobox_Cricketer I've not added the Height row to the infobox, instead I'm suggesting it here.

--Sibaz 20:55, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * By all means add details of height, where known, to the article. I agree that it can be interesting - no doubt it is key - but both Malcolm Marshall and Joel Garner were very successful. I'd rather not see it in the infobox though. We have lots of those abouts, and details are unlikely to be readily available for a great many cricketers.

 * Also, I see you haven't signed up as a participant on the project page yet. You'd be more than welcome if you joined "officially", as it were, jguk 20:04, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * If you have them, have a look in copies of the Playfair Cricket Annual, which give players' heights in the county registers. Might save you a good deal of time. Loganberry (Talk) 22:28, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Should we propose "Cricketbio-stub"?
I notice that several sports have a specific stub for biographical articles, for example for baseball and  for football (soccer). What about having a for cricket? Looking at the guidelines about new stub categories, it would seem to fit all the criteria mentioned there:

 * 1. Is there a stub for this topic already? - no; we only have the base.
 * 2. Will the new category be well-defined enough to help editors identify articles that they have the expertise to expand? - yes; "biographical cricket article" seems pretty well defined to me.
 * 3. Does the new category cover ground not covered by other categories, or create a well-defined subcategory that does? - yes; it's a well-defined subcategory as mentioned in point 2 above.
 * 4. Will there be a significant number of stubs in this category; are there enough article stubs to warrant this new type? - undoubtedly. There are several hundred cricket bio articles in existence already, and the number is certain to grow further.
 * 5. Would your new category overlap with other categories? - not as far as I can see, since there's currently only one type of cricket stub; for example, cricket-stubs are not sorted by country in the way geo-stubs are.
 * 6. If you are breaking a subcategory out of a pre-existing category, will the new stub reduce the size of the parent category by a significant amount? - yes, for the reasons mentioned in point 4 above.

Given the above, and the aforementioned fact that a number of sports have already created a subcategory for biographical articles, I would think that ought to have a fairly easy ride in Stub proposals, but I'll hold back for now in case others feel this would be a bad idea. Thoughts welcome! Loganberry (Talk) 02:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree that there is a need for a separate bio stub, but maybe we should go a step further and have,  ,  etc etc. -- Ian ≡ talk 02:38, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm not particularly keen on that idea, for several reasons. Firstly, it's "jumping a subcat" - maybe we could do it if itself got unmanageably large, but not yet - I can't see there being the support for, say,  given the small number of Zimbabwean cricketers written up so far, and subcats are only supposed to be created in response to existing, not potential, need. (Having special subcats for some countries and not others might also be rejected as unnecessarily confusing.) Secondly, other sports don't do it (even those like football with large numbers of bios), so we'd be going against convention. Thirdly, there seems to be a slight bias in the Stub proposals arena against long stub names (  has run into a little trouble for just that reason). And fourthly, it would mean having to have two stubs for people like Kepler Wessels. Loganberry (Talk) 02:48, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Okay, I've just proposed cricketbio-stub, since even if we do end up with the country-specific stubs further down the track, we're going to need this one anyway. Apparently there's now a week's wait while the folks there decide whether or not to tear the idea to pieces... Loganberry (Talk) 19:28, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Category:Cricket images
To get a global snapshot (pardon the pun) of what cricket images we have available, I created a new category Category:Cricket images. If everyone adds the tag to any images they come across, you may find we have images you didn't know about. I found a couple. Going through the list I came across some with dubious licensing, but I'm not worrying about that here :) Regards - Ian ≡ talk 08:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

 * It would certainly be useful to know which ones have unverified sources or dodgy fair use claims, since then we can look at replacing them. Can we create a Category:Cricket images with unverified copyright status? --Ngb 10:37, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah that should be done to separate the two. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  11:47, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * Could we call it Category:Cricket images unverified to be a little less wordy? - Ian ≡ talk 11:55, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * how about: "Unverified cricket images"? What about poor quality images. I've taken out some poor quality ones of Eden Gardens and Bombay Gymkhana. Should they be added too? =Nichalp   «Talk»=  11:59, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * Any image is better than no image, but the one of Eden Gardens (captioned "Floodlights of Eden Gardens" but essentially a crossroads somewhat distant from the ground) is particularly poor. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:22, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I couldn't get a closer shot as I was in a taxi. Hopefully someone could get a better image. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  12:34, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, I understand how hard it is to get good images, and sa I said, having anything at all is better than nothing (just that that one is really "distant floodlights in the haze"!) -- ALoan (Talk) 14:17, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Update - There's now two categories:
 * Category:Cricket images and
 * Category:Unverified cricket images --- Ian ≡ talk 05:41, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

ODI rules
If I'm not mistaken the ODI rules were modified to allow subs and new fielding restrictions. But in the current India v Sri Lanka match, the old rules of 15 overs are being enforced. What's happening? =Nichalp  «Talk»=  14:02, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * The Indian Oil Cup organisers and teams agreed to use the old rules because the tournament started before 1 August, when the rules were officially in place. I think that's what happened, anyway. Sam Vimes 14:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks =Nichalp   «Talk»=  14:16, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Indian flag
I believe Indian cricket players should be placed under the BCCI flag (light blue, dark blue and yellow with their emblem in the centre) instead of the Indian flag. The BCCI had publicly stated in the Supreme Court of India that the Indian cricket team plays for the BCCI and not the government of India. Team India plays for BCCI, not Govt. In simple words, it is a private team and represents the club, not the nation. =Nichalp  «Talk»=  18:51, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * Well...that flies in the face of the way sport works everywhere else in the world, but I don't know much about it, so I won't argue against it if it happens. Sam Vimes 19:03, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * on a somewhat related matter, Indian F1 driver Narain Karthikeyan was told by the government not to use the Indian flag on his helmet. Don't the Indian players have a little flag on their batting helmets though? AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 21:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Update: Naraian Karthikeyan can now use the flag on his helmet. The laws were changed last month. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  05:18, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * How does this compare to the former custom of England playing as MCC outside Test matches? Loganberry (Talk) 22:01, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I disagree, Nichalp. I think this is a case for using the principle of least astonishment.  That is a legal nicety that really is irrelevant to the building of an encyclopedia.  The image is not to show who the team represents, just a graphic to illustrate the name.  Look at a Test match scorecard.  The team is India, not BCCI.  The same principle applies to Loganberry's point – they played as England in Test matches, but as MCC in tour matches.  They now play tour matches as "England XI".  So to summarise my point, in legal terms, the team represents the BCCI, but in cricket terms they represent the country.  (IMHO)  [[smoddy ]] 22:45, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The government of India and the BCCI had a dispute over lucarative television rights which went over to the Supreme Court. The BCCI was pushed to the corner and had no choice. Had they said that had represented India, the government would have meddled in the working of the BCCI. If you look at the venues hosting India matches, its always the BCCI flag which flutters on the flagpole. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  05:18, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * To me, that is a political/legal argument rather than a sporting one. The team that plays Test matches is "India".  This is fully in line with the rest of the world.  To be a Test-playing nation, the governing body for cricket must be a full memeber of the ICC.  The BCCI is that.  India is the team that plays.  Look on Test scorecards, record books, and the like.  India is the team, not "a team representing the Board of Control for Cricket in India".  The point is certainly very valid (and interesting) for inclusion in the article about the team, but probably not for the illustration of a player.  On top of that, there is the copyright situation with the logo of the BCCI, since this use would almost certainly not be fair use.  [[smoddy ]] 09:33, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Which leads me to wonder - is our use of the WI Cricket Board flag (presumably just as copyrighted as the BCCI one) acceptable fair use...? Loganberry (Talk) 12:41, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I would assume so, as it illustrates the team. I doubt Sky Sports pays anything when they use the WI flag in their coverage, for instance. Sam Vimes 15:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with smoddy. Whatever the political or legal situation, the little flag is only intended to help readers of the encyclopedia know the nationality of a player without having to read the text. Stephen Turner 09:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I suppose the precedent is where we've used Image:West Indies Cricket Board Flag.png for West Indian players -- but that's a case where the team doesn't match up to a country rather than an issue of politics. --Ngb 09:50, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, it is an issue of politics: the British government is very wary of getting involved in cricket matters (thinking, for example, of leaving the decisionre on recent tours to Zimbabwe to the ECB, or more historically the decisions over Basil d'Oliveira were made by the MCC). Of course, there was a West Indies Federation for a while, now defunct, but the West Indian Cricket Board predates that substantially. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:30, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

 * That's a good point. It's not as if the England team represents the United Kingdom in any official or legal sense. The same would certainly be true of Australia or New Zealand. Stephen Turner 11:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

 * If we put a BCCI flag, how many Indians - forget the rest - would be able to identity it ? Tintin 10:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * But not many can indentify with the WI flag either. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  11:24, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
 * But West Indies can't be put under under the flag of a single country. Union Jack and MCC flag are better comparisons. Tintin 11:29, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Totally irrelevant
Apropos of nothing, I have been nominated for adminship and would appreciate the support of you guys. :) Thanks! --Ngb 07:38, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

New Infobox proposal

 * Temporarily removed example while I try to make it work like Infobox Pope

I've developed a slight refinement to the Infobox system because (a) I was worried by the fact that the variety of different infoboxes is quite confusing and (b) I was annoyed, when I chanced to look at Garfield Sobers, that the first-class and List A stats are shunted out into the text and get in the way.

My new system is only slightly different but the idea is that you can build up an infobox that's as simple or as complicated as you like, that can be easily expanded, and that goes all down the right hand side of the page -- so it can be as quick and simple as the example here or as complicated as User:Ngb/New Infobox Proposal which has full Test, ODI, first-class and List A stats, and a source.

Any thoughts? --Ngb 16:10, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Looks fine to me - I suppose we can make Infobox/Tests & First-class as well, for the historic ones. Do you happen to know how much Jimbo turns it, though? ;) Sam Vimes 16:20, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Looks nice, but the padding in the cells could be cut down a bit (it does look a little overwhelming). I have two issues.
 * Will be huge on articles where the text is short. We'll have two screens of infobox, half of that with nothing to its left.  This needs to be addressed.  The optimum would be for every cricketer to have a FA, but that may be unlikely...
 * Related to Sam's point above, it may be better to have it as first-class and Test at the top, with List A and ODI below. That makes the various permutations superfluous.
 * [[smoddy ]] 16:37, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Oh, in addition, might it be possible to make this follow the rather nice precedent of Template:Infobox Pope? [[smoddy ]] 17:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I'll repeat an old question. Why do we have 5 WIs for ODIs and 4 WIs for List A ? Tintin 17:19, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Haven't the foggiest. I know I made the ODI one, and someone else the List A one, so that could be a reason.  This should be changed if Ngb's changes are implemented.   [[smoddy ]] 17:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

The Ashes
Someone's changed the Ashes picture to incorporate a St George's Flag. Even to an Englishmen, this doesn't seem to be an appropriate amendment, only I can't see how to revert the change. Could someone else have a go? Thanks, jguk 06:44, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
 * There seems to be a revert bug. I uploaded the old version over it instead. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  07:02, August 12, 2005 (UTC)


text:
1925 Pulitzer Prize

The following are the Pulitzer Prizes for 1925.

Journalism awards

 * Reporting:
 * James W. Mulroy and Alvin H. Goldstein of the Chicago Daily News, for their service toward the solution of the murder of Robert Franks, Jr., in Chicago on May 22, 1924, and the bringing to justice of Nathan F. Leopold and Richard Loeb.
 * Editorial Writing:
 * Robert Lathan of The News and Courier (Charleston, South Carolina), for the editorial entitled "The Plight of the South".
 * Editorial Cartooning:
 * Rollin Kirby of the New York World for "News from the Outside World."

Letters and Drama Awards

 * Novel:
 * So Big by Edna Ferber (Doubleday)
 * Drama:
 * They Knew What They Wanted by Sidney Howard (Doubleday)
 * History:
 * History of the American Frontier by Frederic L. Paxson (Houghton)
 * Biography or Autobiography:
 * Barrett Wendell and His Letters by M. A. Dewolfe Howe (Little)
 * Poetry:
 * The Man Who Died Twice by Edwin Arlington Robinson (Macmillan)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: 1925 Pulitzer Prize


text:
David A. Kessler

David Aaron Kessler (born May 13, 1951) is an American pediatrician, attorney, author, and administrator (both academic and governmental) serving as Chief Science Officer of the White House COVID-19 Response Team since 2021. Kessler was the commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) from November 8, 1990, to February 28, 1997. He co-chaired the Biden-Harris transition’s COVID-19 Advisory Board from November 2020 to January 2021 and was the head of Operation Warp Speed, the U.S. government program to accelerate the development of COVID-19 vaccines and other treatments, from January to February 2021.

Background
After graduation from Amherst College in 1973, Kessler studied medicine at Harvard University, obtaining an M.D. degree in 1979. While at Harvard, Kessler obtained a J.D. degree in 1977 from the University of Chicago Law School. While serving his residency in pediatrics at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, he worked as a consultant to Republican senator Orrin Hatch from Utah, particularly on issues relating to the safety of food additives, and on the regulation of cigarettes and tobacco. From 1984 to 1990, Kessler simultaneously ran a 431-bed teaching hospital in New York City and taught at the Columbia Law School and the Albert Einstein College of Medicine.

As FDA commissioner
Although his appointment as FDA commissioner in 1990 by President George H. W. Bush won bipartisan approval, many of Kessler's actions were controversial, and he soon became more popular with Democrats than Republicans. He moved quickly to make the agency more efficient, reducing the time needed to approve or reject new drugs, including AIDS drugs, and more vigilant in protecting consumers against unsafe products and inflated label claims. It was also on his watch that FDA enacted regulations requiring standardized Nutrition Facts labels on food. In one memorable action, he had 24,000 gallons of Citrus Hill orange juice seized because, although made from concentrate, it was labeled "fresh." Kessler was reappointed to the post of FDA Commissioner during the administration of Bill Clinton.

Kessler is also known for his role in the FDA attempt to regulate cigarettes, which resulted in the FDA v. Brown & Williamson Tobacco Corp. case. The Supreme Court ultimately ruled that the FDA did not have the power to enact and enforce the regulations in question. He was awarded the Public Health Hero award on April 2, 2008, by the UC Berkeley School of Public Health for his work in tobacco regulation. Kessler published a book entitled A Question of Intent, which gave his view of his time at the FDA, focusing on his attempts to change tobacco legislation and the interpretation of that legislation, and his battle with the then-illegal, but still used Y1 strain of tobacco.

Kessler also oversaw the FDA-directed moratorium on silicone breast implant devices in 1992. This moratorium led to a deluge of lawsuits in the following months, many of which were filed prior to the federal judiciary's adoption of the Daubert standard for expert testimony in 1993. These lawsuits ultimately led to perhaps the largest settlement in the history of medical devices, Dow Corning's declaration of bankruptcy, and ongoing payments to individuals for conditions that have nothing to do with silicone. Scientific panels funded by three different government agencies conducted comprehensive assessments and later arrived independently at the same conclusion: that there was no connection between silicone gel implants and systemic disease. The FDA moratorium was lifted in 2006.

After the FDA

Kessler left the FDA to join the Yale School of Medicine as dean from 1997 to 2003. He was awarded the Public Welfare Medal from the National Academy of Sciences in 2001. In 2003 he was recruited to a post as dean and vice-chancellor at the University of California, San Francisco Medical School. After his arrival at UCSF, Kessler uncovered multiple spreadsheets for the same closed fiscal year (a year prior to his recruitment), all showing different revenue and expense numbers, but indicating that the dean's office was in deficit and would continue to be so, in direct contravention of what had been reported to him during his recruitment, evidence of, at best, inadequate financial controls. J. Michael Bishop, Chancellor of UCSF, stated UC audits found no evidence of financial irregularities and, in June 2007, Bishop demanded Kessler's resignation. On December 13, 2007, Kessler was formally dismissed. Bishop then acknowledged that the financial data presented to Kessler during his recruitment might have been misleading. Kessler alleged he was fired for whistleblowing. Subsequent to Kessler's firing, after UCSF was pressured by KPMG to release one of the audits, it was revealed that Kessler had been correct.

His 2009 book entitled The End of Overeating (a New York Times best seller), highlights for the consumer the amount of fat, salt, and sugar in their food intake. He asserts that this trio of elements in restaurant and processed foods conditions us to eat more, in a manner that changes our brain circuitry, and that children may develop a pattern of overeating and obesity that they might retain for life. He stresses that this outcome of lifelong obesity is not genetic, but environmental and avoidable.

On November 9, 2020, Kessler was announced as one of the three co-chairs of president-elect Joe Biden's COVID-19 Advisory Board, alongside former U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy and Yale public health professor Marcella Nunez-Smith. Days later, Kessler was named a candidate for United States Secretary of Health and Human Services in the Biden Administration. Kessler also served as chief medical adviser to the Biden Inaugural Committee, which organized Biden's 2021 presidential inauguration.

On January 15, 2021, the Biden administration announced that it had chosen Kessler to lead Operation Warp Speed, the program to facilitate and accelerate the development, manufacturing, and distribution of COVID-19 vaccines and other related treatment.

Selected publications

 * Kessler, David A., Fast Carbs, Slow Carbs: The Simple Truth About Food, Weight, and Disease (2020) ISBN 9780062996978
 * Kessler, David A., Capture: Unraveling the Mystery of Mental Suffering (2016) ISBN 9780062388513
 * Kessler, David A., Your Food Is Fooling You: How Your Brain Is Hijacked by Sugar, Fat, and Salt (2012) ISBN 9781596438316 (A version of The End of Overeating aimed at teens)
 * Kessler, David A., The End of Overeating: Taking Control of the Insatiable American Appetite (2009) ISBN 1-60529-785-2
 * Kessler, David A., A Question of Intent: A Great American Battle with a Deadly Industry (2001) ISBN 1-891620-80-0
 * Eisdorfer, Carl, David A. Kessler, and Abby N. Spector, eds. Caring for the Elderly: Reshaping Health Policy (1989) ISBN 978-0-8018-3810-1
 * Eisdorfer, Carl, David A. Kessler, and Abby N. Spector, eds. Caring for the Elderly: Reshaping Health Policy (1989) ISBN 978-0-8018-3810-1

title: David A. Kessler


text:
User talk:Katie Parlante

A welcome from Sango123
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title: User talk:Katie Parlante


text:
Talk:Phantom hitchhiker

Balls. I just realised that I've created a duplicate entry. I forgot that this is known in America as 'the vanishing hitchhiker'. Can someone force-merge them, or delete this one? Ta.

a few minutes later ...
(Actually, just merged them myself, so could someone kill this one? Ta again)

title: Talk:Phantom hitchhiker


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fact and Fiction in the Da Vinci Code

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Woohookitty 09:23, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Fact and Fiction in the Da Vinci Code
Non-notable book. I suspect vanity. Dunc|☺ 22:34, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. If the result of the VfD is to keep the entry, it needs editing to a NPOV. --GraemeL (talk) 22:45, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It really should not pass VfD, in my opinion. The book is simply not notable. Delete.— Encephalon |  ζ   00:55:46, 2005-08-21 (UTC)
 * Delete Dottore So 05:53, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete not notable --Irmgard 12:51, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete not notable. Advertising for SK's book. Paul B, 22 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
User:Jimbo Wales/WikiProject Shave the Wales/to do

 * Collect donations to hire beard assassins (see Barber)
 * Collect donations to buy Jimbo an electric razor
 * ✅ Get a bunch of sock puppets and MfD WP:BEARDKEEP Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Jimbo Wales/WikiProject Wikipedians who frankly don't care about Jimbo's beard
 * Lather.
 * Shave.
 * Rinse.
 * Repeat.
 * Spread propaganda: SHAVE THE WALES!!!
 * Profit.
 * Profit.


text:
User talk:Maeva

A welcome from Sango123
Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay. We're glad to have you in our community! Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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title: User talk:Maeva


text:
User talk:Moleboy234

A welcome from Sango123
Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay. We're glad to have you in our community! Here are a few good links for newcomers:

 * If you haven't already, drop by the New user log and tell others a bit about yourself.
 * Always sign your posts on talk pages! That way, others will know who left which comments.
 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
 * Simplified Ruleset
 * How to edit a page
 * Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
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 * How to write a great article
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 * Wikipedia Glossary
 * If you're ready for the complete list of Wikipedia documentation, there's also the Topical index.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Though we all make goofy mistakes, here is what Wikipedia is not. If you have any questions or concerns, don't hesitate to see the help pages or add a question to the village pump. The Community Portal can also be very useful.

Happy Wiki-ing!

-- Sango  123  22:35, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you need help with anything or simply wish to say hello. :)

title: User talk:Moleboy234


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bridegroom Press

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE. Coffee 10:40, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Bridegroom Press
Vanity press publishers of Steven whatsisname's books above. Not notable. I suspect vanity. Dunc|☺ 22:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Severe POV. +ad. +nn. Delete.— Encephalon |  ζ   00:46:06, 2005-08-21 (UTC)
 * Delete per above Dottore So 05:53, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


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Mark Thompson (DJ)

Mark LaMarr Thompson (born December 1, 1955) is an American radio personality (disc jockey) and occasional actor, best known for the nationally syndicated Mark & Brian morning show.

Early life
After attending the University of North Alabama, Thompson worked as a disc jockey at several stations in the southern United States (including WHHY AM 1440 in Montgomery, Alabama) before meeting his partner Brian Phelps in Birmingham, Alabama in 1986. The next year the duo moved their show to KLOS-FM in Los Angeles, where they remained until the show's end in 2012. Thompson's wife, Lynda, their three children (Matthew, Amy and Katie), his nephew David, and his niece Nina are well-known among regular listeners of the program. Thompson plays drums and is a huge Elvis Presley fan. He and Brian both garnered a 1991 National Association of Broadcasters Marconi Award as "Air Personalities of the Year."

Career
The popularity of The Mark & Brian Show gave Thompson several opportunities to branch out into other entertainment media. In 1991-92, he and Phelps hosted a short-lived NBC TV series, The Adventures of Mark & Brian, based on their radio show. Thompson has also appeared in several motion pictures, notably Jason Goes to Hell: The Final Friday (the 1993 ninth installment in the Friday the 13th series) and The Princess Diaries (2001). He also wrote & starred in the 2002 independent film, Mother Ghost, and briefly appeared as a love interest (coincidentally named Brian) of Reba McEntire's character on three episodes in the 2002-2003 season of the Reba television show.

On June 13, 2012, Thompson announced that he would be retiring from radio after 25 years and would move to Charlotte, North Carolina with his wife, mentioning that his new home would be equipped with a studio that would allow him to do occasional media work. His last day at KLOS was August 17, 2012. Thompson and his wife now host The Mark & Lynda Podcast, which focuses primarily on relationship issues. In addition, Thompson co-hosted the Pro Football Slam podcast with Los Angeles Times journalist Sam Farmer during the 2013-2014 football season. That podcast did not return for the 2014-2015 season. He also began hosting the Cool Stories in Music podcast in December 2013. According to Thompson, the podcast is inspired by the biographies, stories, and chart trivia segments of the Kasem-era American Top 40 radio program.

On December 8, 2014, Thompson announced on his podcast he would be returning to morning radio in Los Angeles and that he would be doing morning drive from his home studio in North Carolina. The Mark and Lynda podcast will continue, but will be shifted later in the day and will be shorter. He also announced that Cool Stories in Music will be syndicated on Sunday on the same radio station.

Thompson began hosting a radio show, "Mark in the Morning" which started on February 2, 2015 on rival classic rock station 100.3 KSWD The Sound in Los Angeles. His on-air talent includes Andy Chanley, Gina Grad, and his daughter, Katie Thompson, as "Chick on the Street". Daniel Mizrahi is the only staff member he brought over from his time at KLOS. Mark was eventually let go from his position due to low ratings, and exited KSWD on August 3, 2016, and plans to launch a syndicated radio program, "Cool Stories in Music."

On August 17, 2020 The Radio Hall of Fame has announced its list of inductees for its 2020 class. Longtime 95.5 KLOS Los Angeles morning hosts Mark Thompson and Brian Phelps (Longstanding Local/Regional). https://www.radiohalloffame.com/2020-inductees

In September 2022, Thompson released his memoir, 'Don't Bump the Record, Kid: My Adventures With Mark and Brian ' (ISBN 979-8352202470) and appeared at various events on his book tour.

title: Mark Thompson (DJ)


text:
Talk:Shadowboxing

psychological use of this term, please?
Will anyone write about the psychological use of this term, please? Adam78 22:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

risks?
I was wondering if there was any risk to concistant full intencity shaddow boxing. It's a big part of my speed and cardio training but I remember someone once telling me that doing it full speed was bad for the joints. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.21.23.172 (talk) 07:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

can shadow boxing help build muscle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.237.94 (talk) 19:12, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess you shouldn't shadowbox if you haven't warmed up before... you could easily pull a muscle if you're unlucky. You probably won't build any muscles, but you might make the muscles more flexible. You could add a weight in both palms and then train to build up some muscles that are hard to reach otherwise.--84.217.113.151 (talk) 02:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

No References/Sources - Needs Clean Up
I placed an unreferenced tag on the article since no sources are cited. I also added a cleanup tag. MastaFighta (talk) 18:41, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: ENGL-122
— Assignment last updated by Mmaley2 (talk) 13:14, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Shadowboxing


text: File:Red Panda.JPG

title: File:Red Panda.JPG


text:
File:Lobos (Administrative Area Divisions).png

Description: map of Lobos Partido and its internal divisions. Origin: image created by Luis María Benítez. Note: this image is free of copyright laws.


text:
Meliphagoidea

Meliphagoidea is a superfamily of passerine birds. They contain a vast diversity of small to mid-sized songbirds widespread in the Austropacific region. The Australian Continent has the largest richness in genera and species.

Systematics
This group was proposed based on the phenetic DNA-DNA hybridization studies of Charles Sibley et al.. A more modern definition of a monophyletic Meliphagoidea based on cladistic analysis was made by ornithologists at the American Museum of Natural History.

Families
The Sibley-Ahlquist taxonomy controversially redefines the families Acanthizidae (spinebills) and Dasyornithidae (bristlebirds) as subfamilies within the larger family Pardalotidae (pardalotes). However, later work indicated that the Pardalotidae are more closely related to the Meliphagidae (honeyeaters) and could be considered a subfamily within them. The Acanthizidae have also been traditionally considered aberrant honeyeaters, and could also be considered a subfamily of Meliphagidae; however, they seem to be very ancient members of Meliphagoidea and if the pardalotes are separated as a distinct family apart from Meliphagidae, the spinebills might be split off too. But some ornithologists maintain that separating the spinebills and pardalotes into separate families would mean creating two monotypic families with a mere six species in total, and so keeping the spinebills within the Meliphagidae and possibly merging the pardalotes therein as well seems to be a more sensible course of action.
 * Family Maluridae: fairy-wrens, emu-wrens and grasswrens
 * Family Dasyornithidae: bristlebirds. Formerly in Acanthizidae.
 * Family Acanthizidae: scrubwrens, thornbills and gerygones
 * Family Pardalotidae: pardalotes (but see below)
 * Family Meliphagidae: honeyeaters

The Sibley-Ahlquist taxonomy also placed the Petroicidae (Australasian "robins") in the Meliphagoidea. This is now no longer favoured; as more recent work show that they form a distinct lineage of uncertain relationships; all that can be said at present with reasonable certainty is that the Petroicidae are neither Passerida ("advanced" songbirds) nor a very ancient songbird group.

title: Meliphagoidea


text:
House of Fürstenberg (Swabia)

The House of Fürstenberg was an influential Swabian noble family in Germany, based primarily in what is today southern Baden-Württemberg near the source of the Danube river. Numerous members of the family have risen to prominence over the centuries as soldiers, churchmen, diplomats, and academics. Sometimes the name is gallicized as de Furstenberg or anglicized as Furstenberg.

History
Fürstenberg was a county of the Holy Roman Empire in Swabia, present-day southern Baden-Württemberg, Germany. The county emerged when Count Egino IV of Urach inherited through marriage large parts of the Duchy of Zähringen upon the death of Duke Berthold V in 1218, and was originally called the county of Freiburg. Egino's grandson Count Henry began to take as his surname the name of his residence at Fürstenberg Castle around 1250.

First prince
The first Fürst zu Fürstenberg of the Fürstenberg-Stühlingen branch, which mainly resided in Bohemia, Joseph Wilhelm Ernst, was born 12 January 1699. He was the second son of Prosper Ferdinand, Count of Fürstenberg-Stühlingen, killed at the Landau on 21 November 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession, and his wife Sophia, Countess of Königsegg-Rothenfels (1674–1727). On 2 February 1716, Joseph Wilhelm Ernst was raised to princely status, after the princely Heiligenberg branch had become extinct. He married in 1723 countess Maria Anna of Waldstein-Wartenberg (22 February 1707–12 November 1756). After her death in 1756, he married in 1761 to Maria Anna countess von der Wahl (born 22 September 1736 – 21 March 1808). He died in Vienna, 29 April 1762.

There was no issue from his second marriage. From his first marriage, he had eight children:
 * 1) Marie Eleonore, 15 December 1726  16 December 1726
 * 2) Joseph Wenzel Johann Nepomuk, Prague 21 March 1728  Donaueschingen 2 June 1783
 * 3) Karl Borromäus Egon, Prague, 7 May 1729   Prague 11 July 1787. He married on 25 June 1753 to the Countess (Gräfin) Maria Josepha von Sternberg (24 June 1735  16 January 1803).
 * 4) Marie Henriette Josepha, born in Prague 31 March 1732 and died in Regensburg 4 June 1772.  Married in Regensburg to Prince Alexander Ferdinand von Thurn und Taxis
 * 5) Maria Emanuela Sophie (nun), Prague, 25 December 173328 March 1776
 * 6) Maria Theresia Josepha (nun), Prague, 4 September 17368 May 1774
 * 7) Maria Augusta Josepha, an abbess in Hradčany (1731 1770)

Second prince
Joseph Wenzel Johann Nepomuk was the first son of the first prince. He was born in Prague, Prague 2 March 1728, and died at Donaueschingen 2 June 1783; he married 21 July 1748 to the Countess (Gräfin) Maria Josepha von Waldburg und Trauchburg (30 March 1731 7 May 1782).

They had seven children:
 * 1) Johann Nepomuck Joseph, 7 July 1755  6 October 1755
 * 2) Joseph Maria Benedikt Karl, third Fürst zu Fürstenberg, 9 January 1758, died at Donaueschingen 24 June 1796; married in Hechingen 1778 to Maria Antonia von Hohenzollern-Hechingen  (10 November 1760  25 July 1797)
 * 3) Karl Alexander, 11 September 1760, 19 February 1761
 * 4) Karl Egon Maria, 5 June 1762, 20 February 1771
 * 5) Karl Joachim Aloys Franz de Paula, fourth Fürst zu Furstenberg, 31  March 1771  17 May 1804.
 * 6) Josepha Johanna Benedikta, 14 November 1756  2 October 1809; married at Donaueschingen 1779 to landgrave Philipp Nerius Maria zu Fürstenberg, oldest surviving son of her uncle, Karl Borromäus Egon
 * 7) Maria Anna Josepha, 5 April 175926 June 1759

Third prince
The death in infancy of the eldest son of the second prince placed Joseph Maria Benedikt Karl in the line of direct inheritance as the second son of Joseph Wenzel Johann Nepomuk. He married in Hechingen 1778 to the Princess Maria Antonia von Hohenzollern-Hechingen (10 November 1760  25 July 1797). He died at Donaueschingen on 24 June 1796 without issue. The title passed to the next eldest sons of the second prince. Both of those boys, Karl Alexander and Karl Egon Marie had died in infancy and childhood, respectively (1761 and 1771).

Fourth prince
Karl Joachim Aloys Franz de Paula, became the fourth Fürst zu Fürstenberg, He married in 1796 the Landgravina Karoline Sophie zu Fürstenberg  (20 August 1777,  25  February 1846). Their shared ancestor was Prosper Ferdinand, Count Fürstenberg, who had been killed at Landau in 1704. Karl Joachim Aloys died in 1803 without issue. There were no more surviving males of the first prince's eldest son. The title passed to the line of the second son.

Title moves to cadet (junior) branch
Karl Borromäus Egon, the second son of the first prince, died in 1788. He had married in 1750 countess Maria Josepha von Sternberg (1735 1803). They had three sons:
 * 1)  Joseph Maria Wenzel (17541759) died in childhood.
 * 2)  Philipp Nerius Maria 21 October 1755 5 June 1790; married in 1779 at Donaueschingen to Josepha Johanna Benedikta von Fürstenberg (14 November 1756  2 October 1809). They had one son and two daughters. The son, Karl Gabriel Maria Joseph, born on 2 February 1785, died in Prague on 13 December 1799.
 * 3)  Karl Aloys zu Fürstenberg, born 26 June 1760, died 25 March 1799.

Karl Aloys zu Fürstenberg married his cousin Princess Elisabetha Alexandrina von Thurn und Taxis (30 November 1767 21 July 1822) in Prague. They had five children:
 * 1) Karl Egon, succeeded his cousin as fifth Fürst zu Fürstenberg 17.5.1804, died on 22 October 1854. Married in Karlsruhe 19 April 1818  Amalie of Baden (1795  1869)
 * 2) Marie Leopoldine, born in Prague, 4 September 1791. Married Karl Albrecht of Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Schillingsfürst.  Died in Kupferzell 10 January 1844.
 * 3) Maria Joseph, born and died 9 September 1792
 * 4) Antonie (28 October 1794 – 1 October 1799)
 * 5) Maria Anna (1798–1799)

On 25 March 1799, Karl Aloys was killed at the Battle of Stockach. His nephew died in December 1799. Consequently, when his cousin, Karl Joachim Aloys Franz de Paula, died, his own son, Karl Egon, became the fifth Prince (Fürst).

Heads of the House after Mediatization

 * 1804–1854 Karl Egon II (1796–1854) ∞ Princess Amalie of Baden
 * 1854–1892 Karl Egon III (1820–1892) ∞ Princess Elisabeth Henrietta of Reuss (Elder Line)
 * 1892–1896 Karl Egon IV (1852–1896) ∞ Countess Dorothea of Talleyrand-Périgord
 * 1896–1941 Maximilian Egon II (1863–1941) ∞ Countess Irma of Schönborn-Buchheim
 * 1941–1973 Karl Egon V (1891–1973) ∞ Countess Ida von Nostitz-Rieneck
 * 1973–2002 Joachim Egon (1923–2002) ∞ Countess Paula von Königsegg-Aulendorf; nephew of the former
 * 2002–2024 Heinrich (1950–2024) ∞ Princess Massimiliana of Windisch-Graetz;
 * since 2024 Christian (born 1977) ∞ Jeannette Griesel; son of the former
 * Elder son and heir apparent: Hereditary Prince Tassilo (born 2013)

Castellini Baldissera
A number of the title bearing members of the House of Fürstenberg are members of the Castellini Baldissera family, an Italian aristocratic family originating from alpine foothills in Lombardy.

Notable members of the House of Fürstenberg

 * Henry III of Fürstenberg (died 1366)
 * Henry IV of Fürstenberg (died 1408?)
 * Frederick IV of Fürstenberg (1563–1617)
 * Ernst Egon VIII von Fürstenberg (1588–1635), Bavarian general
 * Elisabeth of Fürstenburg (1621–1662), princess
 * Franz Egon von Fürstenberg (1625–1682), Bishop of Strasbourg (1663–1682)
 * Wilhelm Egon von Fürstenberg (1629–1704), Bishop of Strasbourg (1682–1704)
 * Princess Amelie of Fürstenberg (1821–1899), Duchess consort of Ratibor and Princess consort of Corvey

Recent notable members

 * Maximilian Egon II, Prince of Fürstenberg (1863–1941), politician
 * Maximilien de Fürstenberg (1904–1988), Belgian cardinal
 * Ira von Fürstenberg (1940–2024), socialite and actress
 * Prince Egon von Fürstenberg (1946–2004), fashion designer
 * Catherine von Fürstenberg-Dussmann (born 1951), actress, designer and businesswoman
 * Prince Alexander von Fürstenberg (born 1970), businessman
 * Princess Tatiana von Fürstenberg (born 1971), rock singer and film maker
 * Princess Virginia von Fürstenberg (1974–2023), fashion designer and artist
 * Princess Matilde zu Fürstenberg (née Borromeo; born 1983), equestrian
 * Princess Alison von Fürstenberg, fashion designer and model
 * Princess Talita von Fürstenberg (born 1999), model and designer
 * Prince Marcus Nabibaks von Fürstenberg (born 2009)

Former members by marriage

 * Clara von Fürstenberg (1920–2016), socialite
 * Diane von Fürstenberg (born 1946), fashion designer
 * Alexandra von Fürstenberg (born 1972), furniture designer

title: House of Fürstenberg (Swabia)