text:
Talk:Gary Condit

Is the South Park reference needed?
Is the South Park reference needed? This article is fairly short and should an article about a controversial congressman need to contain a comment like this? --- Yetiwriter

 * It's directly related to the controversy. Condit probably wouldn't even warrant a page if it wasn't for the Chandra Levy incident.  South Park captures a contemporary perspective that is relevant to the American cultural view of current events.   The comment is a link so this paragraph captures a perspective for posterity.

 * Wikipedia is not a perspective of "American cultural view of current events" for posterity. A U.S. Congressman who serves more than decade in congress absolutely warrants a biography, replete with details (including those related to any scandals). With or without the Chandra Levy incident (and subsequent mockery on an American cartoon show), Gary Condit warrants a page here. The reference to South Park is acceptable as trivia. But Wikipedia does itself a grave disservice if it becomes a clearinghouse for pop culture references at the expense of historical information. Articles are better when fleshed-out with details relevant to the subject, rather than a string of trivial pop culture references. 66.17.118.207 20:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

" with then suspected murderers John and Patsy Ramsey, as well as O.J. Simpson" (empasis added) And they're not suspected now?
 * No, they were fully cleared by the Boulder DA in July 2008.--Gloriamarie (talk) 20:58, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

What about Barry Colvert?
Why does the main article omit references to the polygraph examinations privately administered by retired FBI consultant Barry Colvert? It took hours to perform the polygraph test, and even though it seemed to serve his purposes well enough (and was used to apparently good effect by Condit as a public relations ploy), it was never actually admitted to evidence.

 * Barry Colvert was more than an FBI consultant. He was also an instructor in a class that trained people to administer polygraph examinations professionally, especially in terms of uncovering individuals unsuited for work in classified operations.

 * How did Barry Colvert become an FBI consultant? What were his qualifications?  Under what circumstances did he choose to retire?

I'm under the impression that polygraph examinations are inadmissible in court. Rricci428 (talk) 01:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Post Politics
Frankly the post politics section stinks, it's 90% about the finding of chandra levy and Ingmar guandique, and very little about condit.

I added a minor chunk about the troubles he has had running a ice cream franchise.

--Patbahn (talk) 02:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Conflicting Police statements?
If I recall correctly, this became Condit's Albatross because he initially gave police conflicting stories about his relationship with Levy. It allegedely took him awhile to admit to police that he had a relationship with her and this is why the police latched on to him as a suspect. Have the police depositions ever been made public? Tbeatty 18:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Guilty or not?
So what's the deal here? Did Condit kill her or not? --StevenL 23:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Nobody except him knows for sure. Maybe we never will know. Grand  master  ka  00:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Oh. --StevenL 13:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

For crying out loud, he was cleared a LONG time ago. Condit had NO involvement in Levy's disappearance and murder. This is the problem with sites like Wikipedia; idiotic speculation becomes "fact."--Susan Nunes 14 July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.228.62.9 (talk) 14:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Gary was never cleared. There was a lack of evidence or other information to make formal charges against him.  By the same token there was never enough in the way of evidence to say he didn't do it (compounded by his denials and lies around the affair).  The case is a cold case, still unsolved.  And he remains a person of interest in the case should anything ever turn up to open it again. --WKE235 (talk) 04:47, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Yoo Hoo: "In February 2009, media outlets reported that Washington police were planning to arrest Ingmar Guandique, a prison inmate who had confessed to two other attacks on women in Rock Creek Park." The government allegedly had the DNA goods this time, instead of merely an inflamed press corps. As a "mea culpa", perhaps the press that drove him form office and the voters who voted against him would like to put Condit back in office to continue his distinguished political career? Nah, never going to happen.

I for one would really like to see the press start doing actual journalism again rather than trying to tear down the reputation of anyone unfortunate enough to be in the public eye. Merely making up libel and calling it journalism, as has been the norm since 1972 or so, does not make it "journalism". Lowellt (talk) 16:29, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Update, Ingmar Duandique was convicted of Chandra Levey's murder. would this article be useful in the main article? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/24/AR2010112404515.html?hpid=opinionsbox1--Patbahn (talk) 05:32, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Propose merging in Anne Marie Smith
Hi, I've proposed merging the article on Anne Marie Smith into this article, because she's really not notable enough on her own to warrent a whole article, and her only relevance is to Gary Condit's life. --JennyRad 18:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think that's necessary. --Paulc1001 18:10, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I vote to merge. She is completely unknown beyond her relationship with Condit, and even then, her notoriety is tenuous. CagedRage 19:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Please don't, The Smith article adds nothing of value. Chris.read

Image copyright problem with File:Chandra Levy.jpg
The image File:Chandra Levy.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --12:58, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Gang of Five were blue dog democrats?
the present Blue Dog Democrat article says they are in U.S. Congress, and makes no mention of any outside of Congress. Clarification is needed.75.45.122.222 (talk) 22:31, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

i think the article has been skillfully slanted
against both Condit and Calderon. (I removed some blatant stuff about Calderon.) Slanted articles hurt wikipedia's credibility and can hurt living people.Let's try to be civilized.-Richard L. Peterson75.45.122.222 (talk) 22:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Brothers
This section just isn't fair. The various misdeeds they have been doing are independent, and it seems very much like guilt by association. I do not think there is any justification for including the section, and I have removed it per WP:BLP do no harm. Possibly a much abbreviated version could be restored, but not the entire thing. Ditto for the section about his son and daughter. Inclusion of this sort of material does make the article slanted--at their expense. One does not talk about the crimes of someone's relatives in an article like this unless one is trying to write as destructive a bio as possible. I am prepared to block anyone who restores these sections in anything like the present form without prior consensus at an admin board like BLPN. I take a rather narrow view of BLP, but when it does apply, I take it seriously. FWIW, I couldn't otherwise care less about this topic one way or another.  DGG ( talk ) 22:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Gary Condit
Hello. I have to quarrel with the language you reinserted, which was the issue with me all along.
 * "He was later found to have no involvement, but his exoneration was too late to save his career and he was defeated for renomination to his House seat in the 2002 Democratic primary."

The problem with this is that the statement contains the assumption that he could have saved his career had Guandique been identified and arrested prior to March 2002, which seems unwarranted. The source used for his defeat by the article is Evelyn Nieves' "Condit Loses House Race to Former Aide," which says the damage Condit suffered in the polls was because of his "ducking questions over his involvement with 24-year-old Chandra Ann Levy." In another place Nieves writes: "Although Washington police repeatedly said Mr. Condit was not a suspect in Ms. Levy's disappearance, his refusal to discuss the nature of his relationship with her caused voters to lose trust in him." In other words, it's the obstruction and lack of cooperation that killed his career, not some false belief he was a murderer, which Nieves does not mention and the DC police were already scotching at that time.

I believe that my edit, which removed speculation about whether his career could have been saved if this or that happened, is more justifiable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.205.14.18 (talk) 00:08, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Hello, 63.205.14.18. I noticed your edit removed the bit about exoneration being too late to save his career by replacing it with text about Condit obstructing investigation and lying to investigators, which struck me as a POV shift in the lede in the article, so I attempted to reform that by keeping both perspectives.  I took a look at the Evelyn Nieves article you referenced and saw it contains the quotes you provided above, although reading it in full context it doesn't say he lost his career because of obstruction, it says instead that his opponent garnered support over Condit becoming tabloid fodder for ducking questions about Levy, and that Condit was also hurt in the election by the district having been redrawn.  Perspectives will vary.  In any event, I think a simple solution is to just flip two of the sentences and adjust the part about exoneration to avoid making inferences. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 04:48, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Quote in question
There's a quote in the article "Condit's lawyer Bert Fields said, "It's a complete vindication but that comes a little late. Who gives him his career back?" that's attributed to an article. However, the article doesn't have that quote in it.  What can be done? Rricci428 (talk) 01:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

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Phoenix Instutute
Although Condit may have folded the Phoenix Institute in Arizona, he appears to have revived it in California. Here's an entry from corporationwiki.com:

Phoenix Institute of Desert Agriculture Overview Phoenix Institute of Desert Agriculture filed as a Articles of Incorporation in the State of California on Thursday, July 13, 2017 and is approximately one year old, as recorded in documents filed with California Secretary of State. Oldsmobile (talk) 21:39, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Gary condit
Has Gary Condit ever thought of running again? 184.155.159.78 (talk) 23:14, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gary Condit


text:
Talk:Historia Norwegiæ

Untitled
Is this the same as Historia de antiquitate regum Norvagiensum written by Theodericus monk? Fornadan (t) 19:02, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 * No, it's a different book. --85.165.87.160 01:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Historia Norwegiæ


text:
Talk:Sea shanty

Origins of the word
First off, I'm French. Just wanted to let you guys know that the French word "chante" means "song" or "chant" (chant derived from "chante"). Alternatively, "chanter" (or "chantez", in some cases, or "chanté" in others) means "to sing" as in a verb. Also (to mention), "chante" means song, but ALSO is another form (forms, with different spelling) of "chanter". "Chanter", "chantez", and "chanté" all sound identical, just to give you an idea why I said all three. Overall, "chantey" or "shanty" sound VERY similar to the conjugations of "chanter", with the only two differences being the accent and the last two letters. The "er", "ez", or "é", all sound.... well, the only example I can think of is the stereotype "eh" that everyone thinks we (Canadians) say all the time. It's quite similar to that. On the other hand, "chantey" or "shanty" sound with a "eee"; something that often happens when an Englishman (or anyone who speaks English and not French) tries to say "chanter". So basically, I'm just pointing out the VERY OBVIOUS CONNECTION between the French verb "chanter" (meaning "to sing"), and the English noun "Chantey".

PS: Just for those of you who don't know this, we don't have any "sh" in French. Our "ch" makes the same sound as your "sh" does. 50.93.122.20 (talk) 04:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

It's fairly obvious that "shanty" is a Brit's understanding of the command "chantez!". I wonder when this will become accepted fact.89.166.194.198 (talk) 18:40, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

May I just ask, that why, then, after reading the comment above and below that this page has allowed to be printed 'as fact' these things that are utter conjecture and opinion? Also, if this is not the place to debate the 'evidence' then where is? How are we to attribute the most accurate version of the truth if debate is not permitted in the 'talk' section?

I personally disagree with VAST sections of the entire page, and especially the US, Afro-American opinions as well as the outright fabrications surrounding the French and British Royal Navy. The fact that there is not even a single mention of the Dhoby songs gives great cause for concern, as well as the fact that the vast majority of the words, characters and locations given in shanties and chanties are predominantly British....such as the oldest 'recorded' shanty " Cheerily Man ".

I would, therefore, be extremely grateful to see debate opened on this as soon as possible and the facts presented and agreed upon before any one or any two people decide what is to be 'history'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FELIXjk007 (talk • contribs) 19:18, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

 * Yes, these "VERY OBVIOUS" and "fairly obvious" connections (assumptions) have been made since at least the 1870s. (Keep in mind that the word "chanty" doesn't appear in print until 1867; "shanty" in 1868.) It is a different matter, however, as to who was first using the term and what they had in mind. There is much to be said about this, but it comes under the category of "original research" (it is research I have done), and therefore not appropriate for Wikipedia. If you're interested to know my opinion (though it is irrelevant here), I think chanty is of French origin, but I think its roots lie in Creole French of the United States (Louisiana, etc). Anywhere, so far as Wikipedia is concerned, the etymology is a rather minor issue, proportionately, in a general information article about this topic. And the quality literature on this issue consists mostly of various presumed derivations from French forms (as the article states) and lots of other conjecture that has not stood the test of time and which, I don't think, merits detailing in an article of a general nature like this.

In short, if you all think that nobody in the history has ever thought of these things you're saying before (!), then you're mistaken. To make these statements, at this point, requires a full review of all the various arguments over history...which again is a bit too detailed for such an article. DrBaldhead (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Roll the Old Chariot Along
I've never seen anything to suggest that "Roll the Old Chariot Along" is a "spiritual." Please cite a source if you can show otherwise.

 * The source is right there. Just click on the link.  According to the Library of Congress:

 * "Roll the Old Chariot Along" has direct connections with black folk music of the nineteenth century, appearing in most of the standard collections of spirituals (Dett, pp. 192-93; Fenner and Rathbun, pp. 106-7; Johnson, pp. 110-11). Sandburg published a variant (pp. 196-97), and it has also been noted by collectors of shanties, including Hugill (pp. 150-51) and Doerflinger (pp. 49-50, 357). A version of this was sent to Gordon by an Adventure reader (3758) and he collected another text in California (Cal. 243). There were many black sailors on the crews of nineteenth-century vessels. They brought with them traditions of work songs, and their songs, religious and secular, were usually rhythmic and thus suited for the many kinds of gang labor needed on the big sailing ships. Gordon devoted a chapter in Folk-Songs of America to "Negro work songs from Georgia" (pp. 13-19).

response
I think the difficulty here is the wide variety of versions of shanties. I did turn up my copy of Hugill's Shanties from the Seven Seas. At p. 121-122 of the 1987 edition, he states the following about "Roll the Old Chariot":

Doerflinger says that it is based on the words of a Salvation Army revivalist hymn and that the tune is a Scottish reel. In N. I. White's American Negro Folk-Songs are several reports of this song. One he gives from the Dismal Swamp in North Carolina was sung by whites at corn-shuckings and log-rollings. Also he gives a version sung by students of Trinity College in 1911 and 1912 as a 'pep' song at baseball games. The chorus is slightly different since it gives 'we won't drag on behind' for the final line. Also it gives the sinner, drunkard, gambler, harlot, and devil as all 'being in the way' and the idea being to 'stop and take him in', although in the case of the 'devil' we 'run it over him.' On page 300 he give s Negro version in which instead of a chariot it is a 'golden wheel' that is doing the rolling. It seems without doubt that the shanty is of Negro origin. Doerflinger gives a version in which his shantyman sings the words of 'Roll the Golden Chariot' to the tune of Drunken Sailor. In the Oxford Song Book a sailor version is given with 'Hot souse', 'fresh sea-pie', and 'a glass of whiskey hot' being the things which 'wouldn't do us any harm.'

That said, Hugill's version, unlike the linked version, does not mention the devil or rolling over him. To say that Hugill's version is based on a spiritual is about as far as I'd be willing to go, not that it is a spiritual. On the other hand, the linked version in the context of the quote above is more like the "spiritual" version of the song, and I agree that it qualifies.

more
Okay, I located my copy of Hugil's Shanties and Sailors' Songs. At p. 204 of the 1969 edition he makes the observation that the "on shore" version of the song had a religious theme (and therefore could be considered a spiritual).

still more
Okay, located my copy of Doerflinger. He has two versions of the lyrics, the one most similar to the one in the clip sung to the tune normally thought of as "Drunken Sailor" and the other with has the "glass of whiskey etc. wouldn't do us any harm" lyrics (he doesn't give the tune for that one). The former lyrics were collected from Richard Maitland, who apparently was a New Yorker of Scottish descent. According to Doerflinger, the song is a parody of a spiritual adopted by the Salvation Army.

The chorus and first verse for the Spiritual/Salvation Army (not the shanty version) are (per Mudcat):

We'll roll, we'll roll the chariot along, We'll roll, we'll roll the chariot along, We'll roll, we'll roll the chariot along, And we won't drag on behind.

If the sinner is in the way, Why, we stop and take him on, If the sinner is in the way, Why, we stop and take him on, If the sinner is in the way, Why, we stop and take him on, And we won't drag on behind.

The version sung on the attached clip has "And we'll all hang on behind" instead of "And we won't drag on behind," according to Doerflinger, Maitland said this is part of the parody, the sailors are giving themselves a free ride in their version. Note also that the verse sung in the clip is about running over the devil, normally that would be the last verse in the religious version, it would be preceded by verses about kindly picking up drunkards, gamblers, etc as you see above.

The linked clip seems to have the parody lyrics, but the tune is slightly different from the tune given by Hugil (and obviously very different from the tune given by Doerflinger). My understanding, which may well be wrong, is that the lyrics are part of what makes a song a "spiritual." Someone should track down the other references cited by the Library of Congress and make corrections to the description on both this page and the "spiritual" page if the other references make the source of the lyrics and tune any clearer.

"I removed the 'spiritual' part because, as it was stated, it seemed irrelevant to the present article. It would be relevant to the history of that specific song. Or, if it were being used as an example within a discussion of the possible sources of shanty repertoire from other genres. Without that, seems to open a can of worms, and maybe make the reader wonder why other songs have not been given the same treatment (eg. 'X was a minstrel song,' 'Y was a music hall song,' 'Z was a corn-shucking song'). Perhaps we can fit it back in later if wanted? DrBaldhead (talk) 10:36, 21 October 2011 (UTC)"

--

Maitland was born and raised in Scotland and moved to New York much later in his life I believe. To say he is of Scottish "descent" is somewhat wrong, he was Scottish in all ways and then later moved to NY.86.2.213.86 (talk) 04:29, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Spelling and some other clean up issues
Going to GA and then getting reviewed so quickly rather caught me out. I have made a few MOS edits and I see others have been making edits and using tools as well. One major issue is the mixture of British and American spellings. I can resolve this, but which one do we want to go for? Are there strong national ties to one? Also, if this a genre, shouldn't there be a genre music infobox?--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 11:25, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the edits. I was planning to do another pass on copyediting and style clean-up within the next 2 days. Could definitely use another set(s) of eyes, especially good ones like yours. Thanks for the note on headings, will look them over.
 * I was surprised how quickly the review started; must have been of interest (a good thing).
 * I actually don't see a mixture of spelling conventions (not considering the quotations, of course); perhaps a slip here or there to be caught in editing, but hardly a major issue. I have been using U.S. No national ties, please!
 * I don't think genre info box would be useful, because the problems it would raise would outweigh its usefulness in attempting to simplify the sticky issues discussed. DrBaldhead (talk) 12:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * OK I will see what I can do on the ce front and let you worry about the specific GA issues. Drop me a line if you need help with anything.--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 15:39, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hello. Just to let you know that I have now completed another pass of copyediting, worked on improving the writing style and tone, and the other stuff that I think should satisfy this stage of the review. I suppose I'll let this sit for another day or so, then inform the reviewer that it is ready for the next stage. Let me know if you expect/want to do anything else, before I do that. DrBaldhead (talk) 11:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * OK guys, I've done what I expect to do to let this go on to review. I am going to let it sit for another day, in case any more edits come in. Anyone watching this page, please let me know in the meantime if there is something burning you'd like to do but waiting to find the time for, and I'll delay a bit longer. We can, of course, still edit afterwards, but it's best if the article looks as "stable" as possible before then. DrBaldhead (talk) 07:39, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I have had two runs through on copyediting and I do not think I can do much more, so that is probably all I contribute do at this time. So best of luck with the nomination.--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 10:34, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Why GA nomination failed (Jan. 2011) - Call for discussion/suggestions before re-nomination
Hello to everyone contributing to this article or watching this page. This is just a note about the prior GA Status review with the interest in possibly re-nominating the article -- and thinking about what should be done (if anything) before that happens. This is also being put on the record for the benefit of any future reviewers. The article was considerably edited during the review process. Lots of compromises were made, mainly in the way of me cutting material out, which of course I thought was "good stuff" but I was willing to do in the spirit of working towards the Good listing. The article seemed as if it had been adjusted to suit the reviewer's criteria except for a final unresolved issue. (The exchanges can be read in the Review, above.) This concerned external links to practical videos and field recordings of shanties, to accompany the discussion of shanty types. I had already removed any links from the article that I thought might have raised the reviewer's eyebrow re: copyrighted material, and left only the most "essential" examples which I also believe to be "obviously" fair to link to. I do not believe the links violate WP's copyright policy. The material is not being hosted on WP, it is being linked to. My understanding on WP's policy of External Links is that one may link to external sites, which is not a violation of copyright. However, WP discourages linking to sites which are known to be violating copyright. In this case, we are linking to two sites, and neither can be accused of violating copyright as I see it. The first site is the U.S. Library of Congress' site. They are hosting their own material: field recordings of shanties from the 1920s. They are not violating copyright. The second site is YouTube, consisting of videos created by the uploaders. The uploaders (2 different users) have put up home-videoed content of free public performances. As per YouTube's policy that users may not upload content for which they do not own the copyright, they have done this, and YouTube has accepted them. I don't believe we have any reason to accuse the site, YouTube, of violating copyright. You may "suspect" the users have surreptitiously violated copyright and lied about it, but why even accuse them of that? Shall we go through all the "Good" articles and see their external links and then start questioning whether the authors have lied about copyright permission? This is of course just my understanding of things, but goes to explain why the links seem fine to me. And although this is a separate issue, I also note that such examples which would illustrate the concepts in the article are extremely (did I say extremely?) rare. The average person looking for info on shanties will not soon find these example unless pointed to them; they will find many potentially misleading examples, first. My interpretation aside, I am (and was at the time) hoping for suggestions. Of course, the ideal from my perspective would be to simply see the links stay. However, I was expecting a more specific description of just which ones are bad/ not allowed and which specifically could stay, if that is the case -- with specifics of why. Or with details on what additional info or rationale, etc might be required to make them acceptable. Or some other creative compromise. Making 10% samples (what is 10% of a shanty--traditional open-ended compositions of indefinite length?) and then appropriating the content to turn it into free use or owned by WP seems less respectful of copyright in this case than to simply link to the owner's site. Do you guys think the article is better with the links or worse with them? If better, what should we do to keep them? And if a "Good" rating necessitates they all must go, is it better to keep them and forego the Good rating?DrBaldhead (talk) 08:19, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

History of the Sea shanty?
I find it hard to believe that sailors never sang shanties until the 1800s. The shanty "Maid of amsterdam" was written in 1608 (http://www.dauntlessprivateers.org/sea_shanties.htm). Ward the Pirate, which doesn't constitute as a sea shanty, and "Captain Kidd," were both sea songs sung in the 1700s. I am sure some of the shanties we hold so dear to day date back to the pirate times if not earlier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.9.168.197 (talk) 20:24, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "Maid of Amsterdam," more commonly known as "A-Roving," is not documented until 1883 AFAIK. That "1608" business is nonsense -- an urban (maritime?) legend of sorts. The others, as you say, are not shanties. If you read the article, you'll understand that the issue isn't of find one "smoking gun" song that somehow can be argued to have existed earlier. It's the issue of a groundswell...an entire genre emerging at a certain point, due to certain circumstances. If you read even further, into the 20th century historiography and mass media, you'll get a sense how folklorists and entertainers may have constructed the feeling that you have of "not being able to believe." In contrast, writers in the 19th century, when santies were still being sung, did not try to ascribe an old age to the genre. DrBaldhead (talk) 22:54, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Origin of sea shanties
Not all Sea Shanties started in the English language. There were fifty thousand Lascars in British naval service at the outbreak of world war I. Most were from Bengal. Many ships were then square rigged and required coordinated team effort. For most Lascars, English language was a third or fourth language. I doubt 'Heart of Oak' was a priority. The Song of the Volga Boatmen was collected in 1866. It is a rhythmic work song I recognize as a shanty. For that matter so is the Haozi of the Yangtze Boatmen which dates from around 700BC Tradimus (talk) 13:38, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Are any of the field recordings from the 1930s available digitally, are they public domain?
I was surprised the article itself did not feature any playable files as examples of the field recordings mentioned. There are also no links to anywhere else where you might find some. I managed to find a lomax recording made available publicly but it's from 1962 so it's stretching it a bit.

I can see they're quite hard to find if they are out there because I've not yet found any. For my own sake I'd be interested in hearing it. Based upon reading this article it sounds like that's the most 'authentic' sounding recordings one could hear as they are said to feature sailors who in their careers would sing the shanty's as part of their regular daily workload. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.203.137.88 (talk) 04:52, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

No, there are no out-of-copyright recordings in my jurisdiction. However, in the USA there is a shanty-like song which might suffice on-the-banks-of-the-old-raritan-1915 No legal advice is intended.

Too sceptical/agnostic a wording about the etymology
The Online etymology dictionary presents the French theory, albeit with the qualification 'probably'. The online Oxford dictionary does the same. The Wikipedia article seems to place, both in the lead and in the etymology section, too much emphasis on there being several 'uncertain' and 'inconclusive' theories, when the fact is that one of them is by far the most commonly assumed one, in recent sources at least.--90.154.137.50 (talk) 16:53, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

African/Carribean influence?
The section on African and Carribean influence seems to imply that singing while working was unknown to the British before seeing it in Africans and that work songs derive from African influence. This seems very unlikely to me seeing that drinking songs sung together, very similar to sea shanties and work songs, had being a large part of British pub culture and camaraderie for hundreds of years at this point. I'm also fairly certain that work songs had existed in Britain for a long time before then too.

Yankee doodle is, according to this very site, quite possibly originally a Dutch work song from the 15th century for example. Overall, the section implies a strong bias without any reasonable claims to back it up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.213.86 (talk) 04:22, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

 * Except the extant English sources referenced in the article discuss, and even chastise, the oddness of the rhythmic African/Caribbean work songs, signaling it's intense uniqueness. And as the Hugil and Doerflinger sources mentioned, shanties, as distinct form simple maritime folk songs are not "referenced" prior to the 19th century. You're more than welcome to provide contrary sources than baselessly shouting "bias". Moreover, the earliest published British, really American, shanties all seem to be mid-19th century while evidence of Caribbeans singing call-and-response maritime work songs, i.e. sea shanties, as seen in the article, are decades earlier, with even the earliest shanties sharing similarities with minstrel songs of the day, which often were derived from slave created songs.
 * Even if the British had call and response style maritime work songs prior to the 1800s (which you're more than welcome to provide a source), the belief that they couldn't possible receive any outside influence, let alone from African sources, is absurd on the face of it. We literally have artwork depicting black musicians on capstans, and sources discussing the transmission of shanties between black and white sailors. For all your "very unlikely" and "fairly certain" you have not a single source. It's as if you're offended at the idea that African/Caribbean people or their diaspora, people who would go on to one of the most culturally prolific when it comes to music creation, could possibly create or contribute to something you for whatever reason perceive as British.
 * The only strong bias is coming from you.
 * Also how would the existence of a 15th c Dutch originated harvest song negate the African/Caribbean influence on, if not creation of, sea shanties, which explicitly require a call and response + maritime component when Yankee Doodle has none of those things? You're original thesis is about the independence of the British contribution of sea shanties pre-1800s, but now your throwing things in there from 1400s Netherlands. Almost like your comment has nothing to do with your original thesis, and you care more about minimizing the African/Caribbean influence at all cost than trying to be factual. Again, you're desperately grasping at straws to detract from the clear and well evidenced African/Caribbean influence which is making your original accusations of bias come off as clear projection. Prime Paladin (talk) 20:40, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sea shanty


text:
France–Spain relations

France–Spain relations are bilateral relations between France and Spain, in which both share a long border across the Pyrenees, other than one point which is cut off by Andorra. As two of the most powerful kingdoms of the early modern era, France and Spain fought a 24-year war (the Franco-Spanish War) until the signing of the Treaty of the Pyrenees in 1659. The treaty was signed on Pheasant Island between the two nations, which has since been a condominium, changing its allegiances each six months.

Both nations are member states of the European Union (and both nations utilize the euro as currency) and are both members of the Council of Europe, OECD, NATO, Union for the Mediterranean, and the United Nations.

Medieval
The entire mainlands of both Gaul and Hispania were possessions of the Roman Empire.

While the term "Spain" may be improper when used to refer to France–Spain relations before the union of the Crown of Castile and the Crown of Aragon in 1476, there has always been important relations between what are now France and Spain.

One important feature of those early relations was that counts from the Marca Hispanica and Navarre fought shoulder to shoulder with Frankish Kings (during the Carolingian dynasty), against the Al Andalus Muslim kingdom. Barcelona was a County of the Frankish Empire, under protection of the Frankish King/Emperor.

This vassalty of Marca Hispanica and Navarre to the Frankish empire remained effective up to 985. At that point, because his armies were mobilized in the Verdum's county, Lothair of France and his Byzantine allies did not assist Navarre and Marca Hispanica in its defense against the Caliph, implying that they failed to defend Barcelona from the Arabs. Almanzor did not stay in the cities (the first assault was launched 6 July 985; withdrew their troops 23 July), but this incursion was arguably the first step of a process of independence of the county of Barcelona from the kingdom of France, and heralded what would become the Aragon kingdom. While independent of France and integrated in the Crown of Aragon, Barcelona remained legally a county of France and the King of France retained a de jure right to vote in the Barcelone Courts in the next centuries. This situation generated numerous territorial conflicts between the two kingdoms to control what is now the south of France and the north of Spain (the support of Aragon to the Count of Toulouse, death in Perpignan of Philip III of France married to Isabel of Aragon, and Albigenses Crusades are some of the most famous examples) and played a significant political role in the start of the Catalan Revolt which ended with the treaty of Pyrenees.

17th century
The Franco-Spanish War broke out in 1635, when French king Louis XIII felt threatened that his entire kingdom was bordered by Habsburg territories, including Spain. In 1659, the Treaty of the Pyrenees ended the war and ceded the Spanish-possessed Catalan county of Roussillon to France, which had supported the Principality of Catalonia in a revolt against the Spanish crown. Western Flanders, roughly equivalent to the modern French department of Nord, was also ceded. An anomaly of the treaty was that although all villages in Roussillon were ceded to France, Llívia was deemed to be a city and was therefore retained by Spain to the present day as an exclave 3 km into France. The treaty was signed on Pheasant Island, an uninhabited, unserviced island in the Bidasoa river between the French commune of Hendaye and the Spanish municipality of Irun. Both settlements, and therefore their countries, took sovereignty of the island for six months out of each year. After Philip IV of Spain defeat, Marie-Thérèse of Austria, Infant of Spain, was married to the king of France Louis XIV.

18th century
In 1701, after the death of the last Habsburg king of Spain, Charles II, the French House of Bourbon, led by Louis XIV, staked a claim to the Spanish throne. The war ended with the Bourbon Philip V being recognised as King of Spain. The House of Bourbon remains on the Spanish throne to the present day. The wars were very expensive; despite Mexican silver Spain declines economically.

19th century
Revolutionary France and Bourbon Spain signed the Treaty of San Ildefonso in 1796 as part of their shared opposition to Britain. The relationship spoiled after defeat in 1805 at the Battle of Trafalgar, and in 1808, French Emperor Napoleon invaded Spain and named his brother Joseph as King of Spain as part of a plan to get closer to invading Britain's ally, Portugal. The British under the Duke of Wellington drove the French out of Spain in 1813 following the Battle of Vitoria.

The Bourbon king Ferdinand VII was imprisoned by Napoleon, but still remained recognized as Spanish monarch by Napoleon's adversaries. He returned to the throne in 1813 after the defeat of the French in the Peninsular War.

In 1820, a military uprising in Spain lead to a liberal government, the Trienio Liberal, to come to power. Two years later, Ferdinand VII lobbied the monarchs of Europe to help him restore his power, to which France responded by sending 60,000 troops which overthrew the liberal government and re-installed Ferdinand as the absolute monarch.

Aftermath of the Spanish Civil War and the outbreak of World War II, 1939–1945
When the Nationalist forces of General Francisco Franco were victorious at the end of the Spanish Civil War in 1939, there was discussion of Llívia, a small exclaved Spanish city 3 km into France, becoming territory of the defeated Republican Army. No conclusion was reached and the French authorities allowed the Nationalists to occupy Llívia.

France had tentatively supported the Spanish Republicans during the civil war, and had to readjust its foreign policy towards Spain in the fact of the Nationalists' imminent victory. On 25 February 1939, France and Francoist Spain signed the Bérard-Jordana Agreement, in which France recognized the Franco government as the legitimate government of Spain and agreed to return Spanish property of various types (including, among others. weapons and munitions, gold reserves, art and livestock) previously in the possession of the Republicans to the Nationalists. In return, the new Spanish government agreed to good neighborly relations, colonial cooperation in Morocco, and made informal assurances to repatriate the more than 400,000 refugees that had fled from the Nationalists' Catalonia Offensive into France in early 1939. Philippe Pétain, later the leader of the Vichy regime during the German occupation of France, became the French ambassador to the new Spanish government. Spain would later undermine the spirit of the Bérard-Jordana Agreement when the Spanish entry into the Anti-Comintern Pact and subsequent alignment with the German and Italian fascists resulted in a military buildup in colonial Morocco, in spite of the promise of cooperative policy in that area. Spain was however unwilling to be drawn into World War II, and had announced its intentions to remain neutral in German expansionist designs to France as early as the 1938 Sudeten crisis. This scepticism towards Spanish involvement on German behalf was further strengthened when the Spanish government got news of German cooperation with the Soviet Union, formerly a supporter of the Spanish Republicans during the civil war, under the 1939 Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. Although Spain remained neutral, Spanish volunteers were allowed to fight on the side of the Axis powers as part of the German "Blue" 250th Infantry Division.

With the restoration of the French government in the latter part of the Second World War, relations between Spain and France became more complex. Exiled Spanish Communists had infiltrated northern Spain from France via the Val d'Aran but were repelled by Franco's army and police forces. The border between the two countries was temporarily closed by the French in June 1945.

Between World War and Cold War, 1945–1949
The border between France and Spain was closed indefinitely on 1 March 1946, following the execution of the Communist guerrilla Cristino García in Spain. The Franco government criticized the action, commenting that many refugees from France had used the same border to escape to safety in Spain during the war. Several days after the border closing, France issued a diplomatic note with the United States and Britain calling for the formation of a new provisional government in Madrid. Additionally, Spain's formerly close relationship with Italy and Nazi Germany led to suspicion and accusations. Some Nazis and French collaborators fled to Francoist Spain following the end of the war, most notably Pierre Laval, who was turned over to the Allies in July 1945. One French report claimed that 100,000 Nazis and collaborators were sheltered in Spain. The Soviet Union declared there were 200,000 Nazis in the country and that Franco was manufacturing nuclear weapons and intended to invade France in 1946.

The Franco regime during the Cold War, 1949–1975
With the advent of the Cold War, relations gradually improved. The Pyrenean border was re-opened again in February 1948. Several months later France (along with Britain) signed a commercial agreement with the Franco government. Relations further improved in 1950 when the French government, concerned about international subversion, forced the Spanish Communist Party to leave France.

Franco-Spanish relations would become more tense with the rise to power of Charles de Gaulle, especially when the rebel French general Raoul Salan found sanctuary among Falangists in Spain for six months in 1960–61. Nevertheless, some commercial relations were done, the French finance minister visited Madrid in April 1963 to conclude a new commercial treaty.

Post-Francoist Spain, 1975–2000
When Spain was led by general Francisco Franco, the French believed that ETA attacks were aimed at overthrowing the government of Franco, and did not feel targeted by ETA. The reason for this was the help that regime of Franco gave to the terrorist organization OAS and because of that when ETA started to kill people de Gaulle gave them shelter in the French Basque Country, the so-called Le Sanctuaire. However, when the attacks continued after the death of Franco, France started a collaboration with the Spanish government against ETA.

In recent years, due to an improving economy in Spain, the balance between France and Spain has shifted somewhat. The balance has also changed because of the democratization of Spain since the death of Franco in 1975. France, Spain, and the United Kingdom were the main European Union (EU) member countries that classified the ETA organization as a terrorist group. In addition, this group was also associated with the IRA terrorist group.

21st century

France is one of the largest trading partners of Spain. In March 2015, Philip VI of Spain chose to go to France as its first diplomatic visit since his accession. The visit was widely regarded as a way to hail the excellent bilateral relations between France and Spain.

Since May 2022, both countries finalize their first Friendship Treaty. In this way, Spain would be the third country with which France reaches such a status in its diplomatic relations, after Germany (1963) and Italy (2021). As a consequence of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, new proposals for the transport of natural gas through Europe were reconsidered. In this sense, France, Portugal and Spain would discuss the distribution of costs and the deadlines for new energy projects, which would bring green hydrogen from the Iberian Peninsula to the rest of the continent.

On 19 January 2023, Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez and French President Emmanuel Macron signed a Treaty of Friendship between both countries.

Cultural exchange
During the Roaring' 20s, France was the scene of major art exhibitions attended by famous Spanish artists, such as Joan Miró, Joaquín Sorolla, Pablo Picasso or Salvador Dalí.

The Spanish Civil War and hardship immediately after spurred Spanish migration to the more developed and democratic France, which had a labour shortage in the aftermath of the Second World War. The Spanish artist Pablo Picasso, resident in the French capital Paris since 1901, was refused naturalisation shortly after Franco took control of Spain, but remained in Paris until his death in 1973.

A Eurostat publication in 2016, estimated that 122,385 French citizens live in Spain and 128,000 Spanish citizens live in France, while it is also estimated that 144,039 people in France were born in Spain. Currently, it is estimated that there are more than 125,000 French residents in Spain and more than 275,000 Spanish residents in France. Furthermore, after English, French is the second most studied foreign language in Spain, while Spanish is the second most studied foreign language in France.

With a dual nationality agreement, French and Spaniards can acquire nationality without giving up their nationality. France is the first country outside the Ibero-American sphere with which Spain signed an agreement of this nature.

Resident diplomatic missions

 * of France in Spain
 * Madrid (Embassy)
 * Barcelona (Consulate-General)
 * Bilbao (Consulate-General)
 * Seville (Consulate-General)

 * of Spain in France

 * Paris (Embassy)
 * Bayonne (Consulate-General)
 * Bordeaux (Consulate-General)
 * Lyon (Consulate-General)
 * Montpellier (Consulate-General)
 * Marseille (Consulate-General)
 * Pau (Consulate-General)
 * Perpignan (Consulate-General)
 * Strasbourg (Consulate-General)
 * Toulouse (Consulate-General)

Summits

 * 23rd French–Spanish Summit; 27 November 2013 in Madrid.
 * 24th French–Spanish Summit; 1 December 2014 in Paris.
 * 25th French–Spanish Summit; 20 February 2017 in Málaga.
 * 26th French–Spanish Summit; 15 March 2021 in Montauban: Spain and France signed an agreement on dual citizenship.

title: France–Spain relations


text:
Green Shadows, White Whale

Green Shadows, White Whale is a 1992 novel by Ray Bradbury. It gives a fictionalized account of his journey to Ireland in 1953-1954 to write a screen adaptation of the novel Moby-Dick with director John Huston. Bradbury has said he wrote it after reading actress Katharine Hepburn's account of filming The African Queen with Huston in Africa. The title itself is a play on Peter Viertel's novel White Hunter, Black Heart, which is also about Huston.

Bradbury considers Green Shadows to be the culmination of thirty-five years of short stories, poems, and plays that were inspired by his stay in Ireland. As with most of his previous short-story collections, including The Illustrated Man and The Martian Chronicles, many of the short stories were originally published elsewhere and modified slightly for publication in the novel.

Plot
The narrator, an unnamed writer, is sent to Dublin, Ireland to coproduce a film adaptation of Moby Dick with a director whose first name is given as "John". The narrator checks in at the Royal Hibernian Hotel in Dublin before leaving for Heeber Finn's Pub in Kilcock, where he converses with several local characters.

The narrator meets with his director, John, and John's wife, Ricki. At dinner, John tells a story about his and his wife's trip to Spain, which ends with the couple arguing. The narrator flashes back to when he was buying his travel copy of Moby Dick and a woman warned him not to go to Ireland because the director was a monster.

The remainder of the novel consists of a series of unrelated short stories, most containing surreal and fantastic elements, inspired by Irish customs and culture. Meanwhile, the narrator works for weeks on what he refers to as "the Whale" through the rain in Ireland. In the last chapter, the narrator shows John the finished script. John is impressed and says that he should take the ferry to England. The narrator tells the people in Finn's pub what he's found out about Ireland and says goodbye to them. As he leaves, he sees the hills as green.

Literary significance and criticism
Green Shadows, White Whale received mixed reviews at its debut. Some critics gave the work high praise: Publishers Weekly said it was a "lighthearted, beguiling autobiographical novel", concluding, "Bradbury's prose is as vibrant and distinctive as the landscape in which these delightful tales are set." Kirkus Reviews called it "Bradbury's triumph. He has never written better."

Others found it to fall short because of its stilted diction and stereotypical characters and plots. The New York Times found it "Somewhere between homage and hokum … a cartoon that might be offensive if it weren't so affectionate." The Los Angeles Times said it was "a charming, delicate story" of Bradbury's memories, and what they mean to him, "and if at times the words seem hushed, muted in their reverence for history, the cast of characters … keeps the story from sliding headlong into wistfulness." David Soyka of the SF Site labeled the novel as a "disappointment" because of its clichéd plots and lack of coherency of the stories' themes. The Chicago Tribune criticized Bradbury's "tin ear" for dialogue, complaining that "All of his Irish characters talk like Barry Fitzgerald reciting Seán O'Casey to a busload of tourists from Tulsa."

title: Green Shadows, White Whale


text:
Illinois High School Association

The Illinois High School Association (IHSA) is an association that regulates competition of interscholastic sports and some interscholastic activities at the high school level for the state of Illinois. It is a charter member of the National Federation of State High School Associations (NFHS). The IHSA regulates 14 sports for boys, 15 sports for girls, and eight co-educational non-athletic activities. More than 760 public and private high schools in the state of Illinois are members of the IHSA. The Association's offices are in Bloomington, Illinois.

In its over 100 years of existence, the IHSA has been at the center of many controversies. Some of these controversies (inclusion of sports for girls, the inclusion of private schools, drug testing, and the use of the term "March Madness") have had national resonance, or paralleled the struggles seen in other states across the country. Other controversies (geographic advancement of teams to the state playoff series, struggles between small schools and large schools, particular rules unique to Illinois competition) are more of a local focus.

Governance
The Illinois High School Association (IHSA) is governed according to the rules of its constitution. This constitution covers the broadest policies of the Association, such as membership, governance, officers and their duties, and meeting requirements.

The IHSA is led by an eleven-member Board of Directors. All eleven members are high school principals from member schools. Seven of the ten are elected to three-year terms from seven geographic regions within the state of Illinois. Three other board members are elected at-large. A treasurer, who does not vote, is appointed by the Board. The Board of Directors determines IHSA policies and employs an executive director and staff. They also work with the Illinois General Assembly, the Illinois State Board of Education, the Illinois Principals Association, the Illinois Association of School Boards, the Illinois Association of School Administrators, the Illinois Athletic Directors Association and the North Central Association.

The IHSA also has a 35-member Legislative Commission, consisting of 21 high school principals, seven high school athletic directors elected from each of the seven state regions, and seven at-large members. The commission reviews amendment proposals to the IHSA Constitution and By-laws, and determines which are passed on to a vote of the member schools. Each school receives one vote on any amendments, with voting taking place annually in December. Changes are passed by simple majority of member schools.

The day-to-day running of the Association is charged to an administrative staff of nine, one of whom acts in the position of Executive Director. This group is directly responsible for setting up and running the individual state playoff series in each sport and activity. They also supervise annual meetings with advisory committees from each sport and activity to review possible changes in the rules. They also coordinate committees on issues from sportsmanship and sports medicine to media relations and corporate sponsorship.

Subordinate to the Constitution and By-Laws are a number of policies. These policies are generally of greater interest to the public, as they more specifically deal with issues that affect the day-to-day operation of sports and activities. Examples of policies include individual athlete eligibility, rules governing the addition of new sports and activities, the classification of schools (1A, 2A, 3A, etc.), and media relations.

The key policy that has been a cornerstone to the IHSA is its policy on grouping and seeding tournaments:

''1. The State Series is designed to determine a State Champion. The State Series is not intended to necessarily advance the best teams in the state to the State Final.''

The IHSA is built upon the concept of geographic representation in its state playoff series.

Early years
The IHSA was founded on December 27, 1900, at a rump session of the Illinois Principals Association. Known as the Illinois High School Athletic Association for the first 40 years of its existence, the IHSA is the second oldest of the 52 state high school associations. Only the Wisconsin Interscholastic Athletic Association outdates it, by two years.

For the greater part of a decade, the IHSA was concerned mostly with establishing school control over interscholastic athletic programs and setting eligibility standards for competition. Ringers were a persistent problem, and among schoolboy sports, football was a special concern. In this period, severe injuries and even deaths were not uncommon, and there was much talk of banning football completely.

In 1908, the IHSA's mission expanded in an unforeseen direction when its board was convinced by Lewis Omer of Oak Park and River Forest High School to sponsor a statewide basketball tournament. Although a handful of other state associations had sponsored track meets, none had ever attempted to organize a statewide basketball tournament. The first tournament, an 11-team invitational held at the Oak Park YMCA, was a financial success. Subsequent state tournaments, which were open to all member schools, provided the IHSA with fiscal independence, an important new vehicle to spread its message, and ever-increasing name recognition among the public.

By 1922, the affairs of the Association became so time-consuming that its board hired a full-time manager, C. W. Whitten. As vice president of the Board, Whitten had recently reorganized the basketball tournament and reduced the size of the state finals from 21 teams to four. About the same time, the IHSA became a charter member of the National Federation of State High School Associations. In addition to his IHSA responsibilities, Whitten ran the business affairs of the NFHS, at first unofficially, and after 1927 with the official title of general manager.

From this dual stage, Whitten and his assistant manager at the IHSA, H. V. Porter, exerted unusual influence over high school sports, not only in Illinois, but across the nation. In one memorable battle, Whitten took on the "grand old man" of college football, Amos Alonzo Stagg of the University of Chicago and effectively shut down his national tournament for high school basketball champions. Porter served on several NFHS committees and helped develop the molded basketball and the fan-shaped backboard, among other inventions. Porter later became the first full-time executive of the NFHS.

As the Association matured, member schools requested sponsorship of state tournaments in sports other than basketball. The first such move came in 1927, when the IHSA took over control of the Illinois Interscholastic, a festival of high school track, golf, and tennis run by the University of Illinois. The meet continued to be held on the campus in Champaign–Urbana, but as with basketball, IHSA involvement opened the field to all IHSA member schools and removed non-member schools, including a handful of out-of-state schools. The IHSA subsequently established state series in several other boys' sports: swimming and diving (1932), wrestling (1937), baseball (1940), cross country (1946), and gymnastics (1958) (gymnastics had a University of Illinois sponsored state meet from 1952 through 1957). Few of these series were self-supporting, but the ever-popular basketball tournament – sometimes referred to as the "goose that laid the golden egg" – paid the freight for all.

Of the many challenges faced by Whitten during his 20-year career, the one with the longest-lasting repercussions was the reorganization of 1940. Prior to this time, two large groups of Illinois high schools remained outside of IHSA control: private schools, which were not eligible for membership, and the public schools of Chicago, which were eligible but had joined only sporadically. The new constitution approved in 1940 extended the privileges of membership to non-public schools and gave limited autonomy to the Chicago schools, which subsequently joined en masse. In addition, non-athletic activities such as speech and music were added to the IHSA's menu, prompting the elimination of the word "Athletic" from the Association's name.

1941 saw one of the first serious challenges to IHSA authority, when the association banned high school bands from competing nationally. When a bill was introduced in the Illinois General Assembly to transfer the IHSA's authority to the state superintendent's office, the IHSA moved to change the ban, and give local athletic directors a greater voice in decision making. Also that year, the IHSA allowed private schools to participate for the first time.

In 1942, as World War II started to have an effect on American life, many schools began dropping less popular sports as transportation and hiring qualified coaches became a serious issue. The association polled its membership to investigate the possibility of ending the spring sports season. The poll supported keeping the season. All over the country, as gas rationing threatened to prevent teams and officials from traveling, IHSA Secretary Al Willis was able to get special exemptions for Illinois teams and officials; a precedent that spread to other states, very likely saving high school competitions during the war. By 1943, the IHSA had to look at making changes to its rules regarding eligible coaches, and the prospect of military veterans returning to high school. Ironically, the federal government eventually did put a limit to post season travel for high schools in May, 1945; too late to stop Illinois' spring tournaments, and just in time to herald the end of the war. In the end, the IHSA did not curtail its sports tournaments throughout the war.

Private school multiplier
The success of non-public schools in IHSA tournaments has led to considerable debate among the members, 83% of which are public schools. In 1985, the Interstate Eight Conference proposed a bylaw that the IHSA should exclude private schools from competing in state tournaments, though the membership voted this proposal down.

1995 wrestling controversy
In 1995, Mt. Carmel (Chicago), under coach Bill Weick, entered the end of the wrestling season ranked third in the nation by USA Today, and was poised to win its fourth consecutive state dual team title. Just prior to their Regional tournament, the IHSA learned that the school had competed in too many invitational tournaments, and disqualified the school from further competing as a team. Mt. Carmel did not deny the assertion; however, they claimed that one of the varsity tournaments had only had JV and frosh-soph wrestlers competing. Mt. Carmel won a temporary injunction from the Cook County Circuit Court to permit their team to compete in the regionals. While the individual tournaments progressed, Mt. Carmel won a court victory, which forced the IHSA to permit the team to wrestle. When the IHSA's appeal was denied, and after temporarily suspending the tournament, the IHSA decided to end the season without a Class AA state championship dual team tournament; the first time in the history of the Association that a state tournament had been cancelled due to a cause other than war.

Media usage restrictions
On November 1, 2007, the Illinois Press Association (IPA) and two newspapers (the Northwest Herald and the State Journal-Register) filed for a temporary restraining order to prohibit the IHSA from enforcing its policy restricting the use of photographs taken at its state final events. The IHSA's policy, similar to those adopted by the NCAA, colleges such as Illinois State University and the University of Illinois, and other state high school associations, allows news-gathering organizations to sell photos that are published but prohibits the sale (usually through a Web site) of the many photos taken at the event that are not published. A circuit court judge denied the motion on November 5 and encouraged the parties to renew talks to resolve the impasse. The plaintiffs withdrew their request for a preliminary injunction on November 16 as talks continued.

On December 5, 2007, the IHSA announced that it had filed a countersuit to the IPA seeking a resolution to the ongoing issue, citing a failure on the part of the IPA to continue talks, and the ongoing sale of photographs.

In January, 2008, it was announced that State Representative Joseph Lyons had submitted Illinois House Bill 4582, which would prevent the IHSA from enforcing its ban on press outlets from selling pictures of IHSA events.

In April, 2008, the IHSA and the Illinois Press Association jointly announced a cessation of hostilities that gave the press permission to sell photographs without hindrance from the IHSA

Performance-enhancing drug testing
On January 14, 2008, the IHSA announced that, based on a survey of 54% of its principals, it would move forward to design and implement a program to test for the presence of performance-enhancing drugs in student athletes participating in select State Series competitions. While details have not been worked out, based on the vote of the principals, the membership would not favor forcing a team to forfeit in the event of a positive test, though the membership, which voted overwhelmingly favored to support a period of ineligibility for athletes testing positive, and narrowly supported forcing schools to adopt education programs if an athlete tested positive.

Sanctioned sports

Technically, with the exception of baseball, sports with boys teams having no accompanying girls teams are officially both boys & girls teams. Participation of girls on these boys & girls teams is uncommon, as it is in other states with similar arrangements. Girls teams with no accompanying "boys" team are girls only.

On 13 October 2009, the IHSA announced that it would begin sponsoring a state series in lacrosse for both boys and girls starting in 2010–11.

Sanctioned non-athletic activities
Note: Some Illinois high schools field competitive teams in events such as fencing, field hockey, and ice hockey, but the IHSA does not sponsor tournaments in these events.

Other academic competitions, such as Academic Decathlon, Science Olympiad, and DECA are not sponsored by the IHSA, and are governed by their respective national and/or state agencies.

Notable medalists in IHSA sponsored state series

 * Lou Boudreau (Thornton HS) • announcer and Hall-of-Fame baseball player • led his high school basketball team to 1933 state title and to second place in 1934 and 1935. He was named to the IHSA's 100 Legends list honoring a century of high school basketball.
 * Jim Brewer (Proviso East HS) • basketball player and coach • led his team to the 1969 state basketball title before playing for the 1972 Olympic team, and playing and coaching in the NBA.
 * Quinn Buckner (Thornridge HS) • basketball player, coach, announcer • led his basketball team to state titles in 1971 and 1972. Played for gold medal 1976 Olympic team after being a part of the 1976 undefeated Indiana team that won the NCAA championship. Later played, coached, and became a broadcaster in the NBA.
 * Dave Butz (Maine South HS) • professional football player • won 1968 state championship in the discus.
 * David Clayton (Thornridge HS) • activist • won 1972 dramatic interpretation medal and All Star Cast for The Firebugs.
 * Bart Conner (Niles West HS) • Olympic gymnast • medaled 13 times between 1973 and 1975, including three State Titles on the parallel bars, and two All-Around State Titles.
 * Jimmy Connors (Assumption HS, East St. Louis) • international tennis star • placed fifth at the 1967 State Tennis Championship Tournament.
 * Roger Ebert (Urbana HS) • film critic • won 1958 state title in radio speaking (Individual Events).
 * Jimmy Evert (Senn High School) • international tennis player and coach • won 1940 boys' tennis state title.
 * Neil Flynn (Waukegan East HS) • actor • won 1978 state title in humorous duet acting (Individual Events).
 * Red Grange (Wheaton HS) • professional football player • medaled seven times in Track & Field (1920–22) including state championships in the high jump, 100 yard dash, long jump, and 220 yard dash.
 * Dawn Harper (East St. Louis Senior HS) • Olympic gold medalist • swept both hurdling events as a high school junior (2000–01) and senior (01–02).
 * Dennis Hastert • Congressman and 59th Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives • Head Wrestling Coach for Yorkville HS who won the 1976 Class A State Wrestling Championship.
 * Edwin Hubble (Wheaton HS) • astronomer • won 1906 state championship in the high jump.
 * Evan Jager (Jacobs High School) • Olympic silver medalist in steeplechase • won state championships in Cross Country and Track and Field from 2006 to 2007, including 2006 Cross Country individual title, 2006 4 × 800 m and 1600m titles, 2007 3200m title
 * Jackie Joyner-Kersee (Lincoln HS, East St. Louis) • Olympic athlete • won five medals from 1978 to 1980, including individual state championships in the 440 yard dash, and long jump (twice).
 * Shamier Little (Robert Lindblom Math & Science Academy) - national champion hurdler
 * Ralph Metcalfe (Tilden HS) • Olympic athlete and politician • won seven medals from 1927 to 1930.
 * Candace Parker (Naperville Central HS) • basketball player • led her team to 2003 and 2004 state titles, winning several national awards.
 * Jabari Parker (Simeon Career Academy) • basketball player • led Simeon to four consecutive Class 4A state championships.
 * Derrick Rose (Simeon HS) • basketball player • won Class AA basketball state titles in 2006 and 2007.
 * Jon Scheyer (Glenbrook North HS) • basketball player • led his team to third place (2003) and a state title (2005).
 * Jack Sikma (St. Anne HS) • Hall of Fame basketball player and assistant coach • led his basketball team to a fourth-place finish in Class A.
 * Isiah Thomas (St. Joseph HS) • basketball player, coach, executive • led his basketball team to second place in 1978.

National High School Hall of Fame inductees
Twenty-three Illinoisans are members of the National High School Hall of Fame sponsored by the NFHS. The honorees include:

 * H. V. Porter (1982) was an IHSA and NFHS administrator who coined the term "March Madness".
 * Dwight (Dike) Eddleman (1983) was a three-sport athlete (football, basketball, athletics) at Centralia High School.
 * Harold (Red) Grange (1984) was a football player at Wheaton High School.
 * Bart Conner (1986) was a gymnast at Niles West High School.
 * John L. Griffith (1986) was the first commissioner of the Big Ten Conference, and a contributor to high school athletics.
 * Quinn Buckner (1989) was a basketball player at Thornridge High School.
 * Gordie Gillespie (1989) was a football coach at Joliet Catholic Academy.
 * Jackie Joyner-Kersee (1989) was a track & field athlete at Lincoln High School in East St. Louis.
 * Joe Newton (2004) was a cross country coach at York Community High School.

title: Illinois High School Association


text:
Talk:Mexico City International Airport

Untitled
The name of the airport is "Aeropuerto Internacional de la Ciudad de México". The Benito Juárez part was never put into the official name of this facility. Please correct this.

-Erubiel Arango de los Monteros Mexico City

 * I think you're right, however everybody knows this airport as "Benito Juarez" and is even named as such in Mexican news. So it would be more a matter of use and custom rather than actual protocol to have this article under a "Benito Juárez" heading. 01:05, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

...this is a mistake. I agree with Erubiel. The use of "Benito Juárez" is less and less every day, because the media and the government are catching on to their mistake. You should use the official, formal and true name instead of a mistake that, even though repeated thousands of times is still a mistake. Maybe we should continue confusing the terms "muslim" and "arab" because the media does?

-Alejandro Hernández Wilson Gustavo A. Madero, Mexico City

 * Guys, be bold. I have now renamed this article to Mexico City International Airport, with the former name now being a redirect to here and the Spanish name a redirect too. Wangi 21:53, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

International terminal
I keep removing the "Hall" listings because the "Hall" is just where the ticket counter for that airline is! There are no assigned airside areas at Mexico City's International Terminal - all gates are common-use and assigned as needed. Any plane may end up at any gate at any time. FCYTravis 03:08, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

where you find this information: "the t2 will be handle by sky team"? --200.66.252.165 06:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I have a question? Does anybody know if Northwest Airlines is moving to Terminal 2? I figured since it is apart of the skyteam alliance that it would be wierd if they did not move their operations. Cardozo 15:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Aeromexico does not have any flights to New Orleans. I know I currently live there. Unless you have proof, otherwise I will delete any references stating otherwise. Cardozo 18:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The Aeromexico flight 498 is irrelevant to the article. Relevant incidents would involve those on or about (immediate approach/departure) the airport. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.174.22.27 (talk) 19:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Airlines and Destinations
First of all, I want to say that I am really tired of reversing all these speculative additions of airlines and destinations. I'm also suggesting that we delete the Former Airlines/ Destination section. It's very hard and frustrating to be have to verify claims of former service from airlines that have NEVER served this airport (i.e. Qantas, Turkish Airlines). The section has become nothing but random guesses and it's easier for people to pull it off because it talks about service that could have occurred decades ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.199.197.166 (talk) 07:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I've actually seen photos of Qantas at MEX, I think on Airliners.net. I think it was called the Fiesta route, from Syd-ACK-PPT-Acapulco-MEX-JFK-LHR and back. Regardless, if you want to keep it deleted, do so, do as you want. ''Come Fiesta With Me, User AntonioMartin (platicas) 0:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

What is that in the "Terminals, Airlines and Destinations" section? It refers to no less than 11 terminals, while the article clearly states that MEX has two. Moreover, there are even flights to Mexico City mentioned there. This was obviously pasted from some other airport (probably JFK, given the number of terminals). Vandalism? I only didn't delete everything because I wouldn't have the means to replace that with the correct information. If someone can, please do it. --UrsoBR (talk) 22:05, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that we should delete the former airlines/service section, what does everybody else think? We should have a vote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.217.102.204 (talk) 18:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the vote, but it has been deleted already. I colaborated with the section, but it became as said above, a whole mess, and verifying the claims of airlines previously serving was really a mess too. Nonetheless, many other airport ats. include within a section for former airlines. I believe regulations on such matter can be applied and only with the purpose of enriching the articles themselves. IFCM (talk) 04:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there an actual source that mentions that Aeromexico is returning to Dallas-Ft. Worth? If not then it should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.72.32.251 (talk) 06:17, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Delta MEX-MCO
Please check Delta's website. There are no nonstop flights between MEX and MCO operated by DL...only nonstop is operated by Aeromexico. Also, there is no DL521 routed MEX-MCO on their website either. 74.183.173.237 (talk) 02:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Criticism vs. Report
I've changed the wording at the heading on the part talking about the Arizona Republic's article to report because the writer was actually marveled about the spotting, not criticizing it! ''Kiss AntonioMartin (what's that?) 00:19, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

name discrepancy
Viewing talk page messages above, it appears that the article was renamed from Benito Juarez to Mexico City International Airport because Benito Juarez was not the official name. However, in the lede, the airport is referred to as Benito Juarez Int. Apt., and in the infobox. Which should it be? Griffinofwales (talk) Simple English Wikipedia - Come and join! 22:23, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Stuff
WhisperToMe (talk) 23:08, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.aicm.com.mx/flash/menu_en.swf - http://www.webcitation.org/66pZ7rSE1
 * http://www.aicm.com.mx/flash/menu.swf - http://www.webcitation.org/66pZB2dtP

Completely unreferenced
I do not like edits like. Neither I do like the way my reversions, which had a clear edit summary pointing to a core content policy, i.e. WP:VERIFY, is ignored and the edit is reinstated by saying "per Aeromexico.com" or something like that. Here in Wikipedia we have policies, like the one I already mentioned. Do not edit Wikipedia if you do not intend to follow these policies. Do take a look at the links I mentioned before, and pay special attention to "All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material."--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 00:53, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, mind the guidelines at WP:AIRPORT-CONTENT.--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 13:17, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Almost five months have passed, and the 187.143.XXX.XXX and 189.132.XXX.XXX behaviour keeps being the same. I assume these two IPs come from the same editor per the edit summary in edit. There were no responses to my comments above. I'll put this article in my watchlist from now on. I'll consider requesting protection of the page if more edits like  are made. Five months is more than enough time to make anyone understand that WP:VERIFY is a policy and, as such, is of mandatory applicaition for the vast majority of the edits.--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 19:42, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
 * reverted. Still no comments about this.--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 00:39, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
 * .--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 10:21, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

More unsourced additions reverted.--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 19:01, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yet another unreferenced modification . Reverted.--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 10:33, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Poorly sourced content added (and re-added) again
This edit is the last one adding content that is not supported by the reference provided. I don't know why All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. from WP:VERIFY is so difficult to understand. I won't continue the back and forth addition and removals. Instead, I'm requesting admin help at my talk page to solve this. Please note that protection of the page had been requested, but it was declined.--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 10:39, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Mdy format used
This revert was correct not because of Mexico being in "The Americas" but because the article is tagged as using the  format. Mexico is part of Latin America, and use format accross all the countries comprising it.--Jetstreamer $Talk$ 13:23, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Mexico City International Airport


text:
User talk:Soilguy6

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, please be sure to sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~) to produce your name and the current date, or three tildes (~~~) for just your name. If you have any questions, you can post to the help desk or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help pages
 * Tutorial
 * How to write a great article
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I know you've been around since November last year but it's about time someone gave you the official welcome. -- Francs2000 | Talk 19:07, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

WP:POINT
Please do not disrupt wikipedia to make a point. Specifically, this is in response to this edit. Friday (talk) 05:26, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Soilguy6


text:
Talk:Sulfuric acid

Abu Bakr al-Razi and sulfuric acid
Hi ! I see that you have added the perennial claim about Abu Bakr al-Razi discovering sulfuric acid. You added three sources, but there are many many more repeating the exact same claim. However, none of these sources themselves ever cite a source for this claim. They are also neither specialists on the subject, nor proper secondary sources, meaning that they do not ground the claim in primary sources. According to relevant WP policy however, Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if it has been published by a reliable secondary source.

This has been discussed before; for a short version please see Talk:Abu Bakr al-Razi, and for a (very) long version, please see this RSN thread.

I will also briefly note that the mainstream view among historians of chemistry is that Arabic alchemists did not know mineral acids such as sulfuric acid:

 * pp. 140-141: The close resemblance between the practise of the Jabirian writers and al-Razi is most marked in their passages on such 'sharp waters'. These waters range from simple mixtures to distillates obtained from complex mixtures. They are not always fluid and some of the processes refer to melting rather than dissolution. But among them we find the rudiments of processes which were finally to lead to the discovery of the mineral acids, sulphuric, hydrochloric and nitric. The mineral acids manifest themselves clearly only about three centuries after al-Razi, in the works of Europeans, some of whom were alchemists, but others of whom were concerned with the production of medical elixirs.
 * : It is generally accepted that mineral acids were quite unknown both to the ancients in the West and to the Arabic alchemists.
 * p. 59: The text is given here in full because of the prevailing notion that Islamic chemists did not produce mineral acids.
 * p. 1002: As dating the works of the Pseudo-Geber corpus is problematic, dating the discovery of nitric acid is likewise uncertain. It is estimated that this discovery took place after 1300, some two hundred years before it appeared in print. [...] The history of sulfuric acid is especially difficult to trace, as no reliable recipe for its preparation is known prior to the sixteenth century. Nevertheless, there are vague allusions to it in the work of Vincent from Beauvais (d. 1264) and in the Compositum de compositis ascribed to Albertus Magnus . [...] A passage from the second part of Pseudo-Geber's Summa perfectionis, as interpreted by Darmstaedter, was long considered to be the earliest known recipe for sulfuric acid [...]
 * : between the time when the Summa perfectionis was written and the seventeenth century, the mineral acids–sulfuric, hydrochloric, nitric, and the mixture of the latter two, called aqua regia, had been discovered.

What editors have found during the previous discussions about al-Razi and sulfuric acid is that there is a Latin text called the Lumen luminum magnum (not to be confused with the Liber Luminis luminum usually attributed to Michael Scot cited in the nitric acid article), which scholars in the 19th century thought was written by al-Razi, and which does contain a description of sulfuric acid. This text, which in the specialist literature at least since 1939 has not been considered any longer as belonging to al-Razi, may well be the ultimate origin of the perennial claim about al-Razi and sulfuric acid found repeated by modern non-specialist sources not citing any source themselves.

I am currently working on an expansion of this article discussing the Lumen luminum magnum and what specialist scholars have written about it. When I post that I will remove the sources you added, since they contradict the scholarly literature without citing any sources, which renders them not reliable in context. ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 18:41, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

 * In this recent edit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1139170383 I have mentioned the primary source that has been cited by different specialists (Joseph Needham, Ruska, Stapleton, Azo and Husain) who credit the discovery of Sulphuric acid to al-Razi. I see that previous discussions on this issue failed to produce a primary source for this claim Hu741f4 (talk) 19:23, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but they do not. Let me quote you from p. 333 Although Beckmann and others have ascribed to ar-Razi the discovery of the so-called 'mineral' acids –possibly on the basis of certain interpolated passages in the Liber Bubacaris,– the only prescription in this section that suggests that he was acquainted with any of them is the following, which may be explained as a primitive method of obtaining Hydrochloric acid.; p. 393: It is extremely curious to see how close ar-Rāzī came to the discovery of Sulphuric acid, without actually recognising the powerful solvent properties of the distillate of vitriols and alum. This is all the more surprising, as he fully realised the reactive powers of both Arsenic sulphide and Sal-ammoniac, the 'Spirits' with which he must have associated the distillate from alum.
 * , who quotes, also stresses that Arabic alchemists were capable of using a mineral acid without quite knowing what it was. These source should be more accurately represented. I will do that in the edit I promised, on which I'm still working. ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 19:36, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

 * Here we are talking about Sulfuric acid and not mineral acid in general. According to Needham, even though Al-Razi didn't know about Sulfuric acid, one of his experiment indeed resulted in the production of Sulfuric acid which is mentioned in Kitab al Asrar. Needham writes: "Among the passages which indicate that Arabic alchemists were capable of using a mineral acid without quite knowing what it was, we may quote one from the Kitab Sirr al-Asrar (Book of the Secret of Secrets) written by al-Razi towards + 910. What he seems to be doing is making pure aluminium sulphate from alunite (the sulphate plus the hydroxide), and getting sulphuric acid in order to do it." Hu741f4 (talk) 19:45, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have now incorporated and  into the article, as  I have also added the "It is extremely curious to see how close ar-Rāzī came to the discovery of Sulphuric acid, without actually recognising the powerful solvent properties of the distillate of vitriols and alum" quote from . ☿  Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 20:40, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

How to dilute a concentrated sulphuric acid
Such information should be displayed on the pages 41.116.129.240 (talk) 20:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

 * See WP:NOTHOWTO. Wikipedia is not a how-to guide.  S0091 (talk) 20:23, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sulfuric acid


text: User talk:72.26.0.227

title: User talk:72.26.0.227