text:
Ghiyas-ud-din Baraq

Baraq was Khan of the Chagatai Khanate (1266–1271). He was the son of Yesünto'a and a great-grandson of Chagatai Khan. A convert to Islam, he took the name Ghiyas-ud-din.

Background
Baraq's family had moved to China following his father's exile by the Great Khan Möngke Khan for his support of the house of Ögedei Khan. Baraq grew up in the camp of Kublai Khan and gained distinction there.

Early 1260s
Sometime in the early 1260s he traveled to Central Asia and earned the trust of Mubarak Shah. When the latter was again enthroned as Chagatai Khan in 1266, Baraq gained support among the army for a coup and deposed Mubarak Shah in September of that year. Almost immediately, he repudiated the authority of Kublai as Great Khan. He removed Kublai's representative of Turkestan, replacing him with one of his own governors. His vastly superior army prevented Kublai's officers from expelling him, and Khotan was ravaged by his forces. Nevertheless, Kublai Khan sent him a grant in 1268, in an effort to end the conflict and focus on Kaidu.

When Kaidu advanced towards Baraq, the latter set a trap for the invader's troops on the bank of the Jaxartes, and defeated his forces. In the next battle, however, Kaidu defeated Baraq near Khujand with the assistance of Mengu-Timur, the Khan of the Golden Horde who sent 3 tumens under his uncle Berkhe-Chir. Transoxiana was then ravaged by Kaidu. Baraq fled to Samarkand, then Bukhara, plundering the cities along the way in an attempt to rebuild his army. These actions alarmed Kaidu, who did not want the region to be further devastated. Kaidu also needed to free up his army for a potential conflict with Kublai. Peace was therefore proposed, and Baraq was pressured by the governors of the sedentary areas of the khanate, Mas'ud Beg and Daifu, to accept. He did, and peace was declared, although sources conflict on the time and location. Rashid al-Din claims that the meeting took place in the spring of 1269 in Talas, while Wassaf writes that it took place around 1267 to the south of Samarkand. In any case, two-thirds of Transoxiana were granted to Baraq, while the other third went to Kaidu and Mengu-Timur. Kaidu also gained control of the region around Bukhara. Neither side gained control of the cities; the direct administration of these instead devolved to Mas'ud Beg, while Baraq and Kaidu agreed to reside only in the deserts and mountains.

Baraq was displeased with the agreement; when Kaidu was preoccupied with Mengu-Timur's attempt to take his portion of Transoxiana, Baraq sent troops to reoccupy Bukhara in violation of the truce. He also later attempted to plunder both Samarkand and Bukhara, and Mas'ud Beg was hard-pressed to prevent this. Still, when he decided to attack the Ilkhanate in order to gain significant pasture, Kaidu agreed, as the Ilkhan Abaqa was an ally of Kublai. Kaidu provided troops for Baraq's invasion of the Ilkhanate, which began in 1269 or 1270. Qipchaq, who had been the one to initially approach Baraq requesting peace, and Chabat, a grandson of Güyük Khan, were among the representatives of Kaidu within Baraq's army. Baraq persuaded a Chaghadaid commander under the service of Abaqa, Tegüder, to revolt, and himself defeated the Ilkhan's forces in Khurasan. Soon afterward, Qipchaq entered into an argument with Baraq's general Jalayirtai, and used this as an excuse to head back to Kaidu. Baraq sent his brother, and later Jalayirtai, to recover Qipchaq, but without success. Soon, Chabat also abandoned the army, though much of his forces were crushed by Baraq's son in Bukhara. Baraq's protests to Kaidu were ineffective; the latter even entered into friendly relations with Abaqa.

Defeat
Having sent much of his troops against the deserters, Baraq suffered a large defeat at Herat on July 22, 1270 against the Ilkhan. Wounded, he fled back to Bukhara, while many of his troops deserted to the enemy. He sent a letter to Kaidu, blaming Qipchaq and Chabat for his loss and requesting assistance. Kaidu sent a large force in response. When Baraq's lieutenants had neutralized the rebels, he wrote that the assistance was no longer necessary, but Kaidu's force continued to approach, with the intention of destroying the power of the Chaghadaids. His army surrounded Baraq's camp, but upon reaching the camp realized that Baraq had died during the previous night. Most of Baraq's generals then submitted to Kaidu's authority. Wassaf, in contrast, claims that Baraq's generals had abandoned him while he was alive, and that Baraq had no choice to submit to Kaidu, who poisoned him. Only a month later, Kaidu had himself crowned Khan and reserved the right to appoint the head of the Chagatai Khanate, a power he retained for the rest of his life. The Chagatai Khans thus became puppets of Kaidu for the next thirty years. His sons, however, would continue to fight Kaidu's authority for a long time after Baraq's death.

Genealogy
In Baburnama, Babur described the genealogy of his maternal grandfather Yunas Khan as:

"Yunas Khan descended from Chaghatai Khan, the second son of Chingiz Khan (as follows): Yunas Khan, son of Wais Khan, son of Sher-'ali Aughlon, son of Muhammad Khan, son of Khizr Khwaja Khan, son of Tughluq-timur Khan, son of Aisan-bugha Khan, son of Dawa Khan, son of Baraq Khan, son of Yesuntawa Khan, son of Muatukan, son of Chaghatai Khan, son of Chingiz Khan"

title: Ghiyas-ud-din Baraq


text: User talk:Daveandguy

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Daveandguy


text:
User talk:Ringworm~enwiki

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

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title: User talk:Ringworm~enwiki


text:
User:Mehrosh

‘Abdullah ibn Saba: Founder of Shiaism?

There have been a growing tendency amongst modern Shi‘ah scholars to dismiss the role of ‘Abdullah ibn Saba (sometimes called ibn Sauda) of San‘a, a city of Yemen, in the origin of Shi’ism debate. After the Iranian revolution of 1979, the modern Shi‘ah state now wishes to ground its origins on something more concrete, rather than upon the mischief of Jew, in order to gain official recognition as a legitimate Islamic state amongst Muslims. Upto the classical age of Shi’ism, all of the erudite Shi’ite scholars attributed the origin of Shi’ism to this same ibn Saba. ‘Allamah Majlisi said: "Some scholars have asserted that ibn Saba was a Jew who accepted Islam and started voicing his opinion of the ‘wilayat’ (divine appointment) of ‘Ali. While a Jew, he propounded the exaggerative notion that Yusha ibn Nun was divinely appointed to succeed Prophet Musa, he thus adopted a similar stance with regard to ‘Ali in relation to the Holy Prophet. He was the first to subscribe to the belief of Imamate, and he openly vitriolated his enemies (i.e. the first three Caliphs) and branded them as infidels. The origin of Shi’ism is thus based on Judaism." (Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 25, p. 287). Other Shi‘ah scholars who have affirmed this was ‘Allamah Kashi in his Rijal al-Kashi and ‘Allamah Mamaqani in his Tanqih al-Maqal. Amongst Sunni scholars, ‘Allamah ibn Taimiyyah had confirmed this in his Minhaj al-Sunnah. He wrote: ''"More than one Shi‘ah scholar have affirmed that that the first one to start disparaging the Sahabah and who introduced the doctrine of wilayah was a hypocrite and a zindiq who intended to corrode Islam from within. He wished to scheme as Baulus had schemed against Christianity. Prophet Jesus was raised to the heavens, and there were a precious few who followed his teachings. His teachings thus weakened the fabric of Christianity and many started adopting his exaggerated notions and many kings were won over to their side. When their scholars tried to oppose them, they were killed, some were exiled, while some were confined to life-long sentences in remote monasteries. On the other hand, this ummah will always have a group of staunch followers who will uphold the truth. No corrupt person will be able to destroy Islam, he will only gain some followers." (Minhaj al-Sunnah, vol. 3, p. 261). ‘Allamah Shahristani has confirmed this too, saying that when ‘Ali heard the claim of his divinity directly from the mouth of ibn Saba, he exiled him to Mada’in (Al-Milal wa al-Nihal, vol. 2, p. 11).'' Hafiz ibn Hajar threw more light on the dialogue between ‘Ali and ibn Saba on this occasion: "Abul Ijlas says that I heard ‘Ali telling ‘Abdullah ibn Saba: "By Allah, I have not hidden any secret from anyone which the Holy Prophet told me. I heard the Holy Prophet saying that there would appear thirty liars before the last day, and you are one of them." Once Suwaid ibn Ghafalah visited ‘Ali during his reign and told him that he had passed a few people amongst whom was ibn Saba speaking ill of Abu Bakr. They claimed that you also held the same opinion''." ‘Ali retorted: "I have nothing to do with this black filthy creature. I seek refuge from Allah that I hold any opinion other than the best for Abu Bakr and ‘Umar." He then exiled ibn Saba saying that he could not tolerate to live with him in one city. ‘Ali then ascended the pulpit, and after relating the story said: "I will lash anyone who prefers me over Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, the lashing of a slanderer." (Lisan al-Mizan, vol. 3, p. 290).'' Beliefs of Ibn Saba in a nutshell ‘Ali was divinely appointed to be the Holy Prophet’s successor, and that ‘Ali had hid this knowledge from the people. He later called for the divinity of ‘Ali. Having said so, he proclaimed himself as ‘Ali’s Prophet. Even Shi‘ah scholars have gawked at his audacity. He initially did not openly preach these beliefs, but he later abandoned his secret and started a vigorous campaign. (Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 25, p. 286) He preferred ‘Ali over Caliph Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthman, saying that they usurped the Caliphate form ‘Ali. He declared open enmity towards all those who did not subscribe to such a belief and branded them as kuffar. His devious scheme Speaking of the devious scheme which ibn Saba gradually implemented to achieve his aims, Shah ‘Abd al-‘Aziz has written: "Ibn Saba first called the masses to show their love and devotion to the ahl al-Bait (Prophetic Household). He then started claiming that none could excel the ahl al-Bait in status. When he gained some popularity at this, he boldly claimed that ‘Ali was the most superior person after the Holy Prophet. When he saw that some of his followers had indeed believed him, he confided in them that ‘Ali was in reality the appointed successor of the Holy Prophet, but the Sahabah had usurped this right from him. He then unleashed a campaign of vilification against all the Sahabah, and the first three Caliphs in particular amongst the army of ‘Ali. What amazed ibn Saba was that people still believed him! He thus took the opportunity the corrupt the belief pattern of the Muslims. He thus told his staunch supporters that ‘Ali had powers above those of a normal human being, he was Allah, besides whom there was no other power. This ‘secret’ until it reached the ears of ‘Ali himself. ‘Ali threatened to burn all of them, asked them to repent and exiled them to Mada’in. As a result of this propaganda, the army of ‘Ali was split into four factions: First, The initial and sincere Shi‘ahs who are in fact Sunnis. They followed the directives of ‘Ali, and paid due respect to all the Sahabah, including those who opposed ‘Ali like Sayyidah ‘A’ishah and Mu‘awiyah. ‘Ali singled out this group for praising on many occasions, and they did not fall prey to the propaganda machine of ibn Saba. Second, The Preferential (Tafdili) Shi‘ahs. They preferred ‘Ali over the rest of the Sahabah. Third, the Saba’i Shi‘ahs or the Tabariyah. They went a step further and regarded all the Sahabah as hypocrites, usurpers, and kuffar. Fourth, the Exaggerationaists (Ghali) Shi‘ahs who proclaimed ‘Ali as Lord. These were the special students of ibn Saba. Thus, the origin of Shi’ism was planted by ibn Saba and since then it continued to spread." (Tuhfah Ithna ‘Ashariyyah, pp. 3-5) All these accounts prove that ibn Saba was not a product of the figment of anyone’s imagination, he was rather a well-known personality who whose notoriety matched that of the devil too. The fact that he is not well known amongst the Traditionists (Muhaddithun) is not prove enough that he was a created and legendary figure. His absence in the books of Rijal (Biographies) is because he did not report any traditions (ahadith), and not because he did not exist. In the face of the above evidence, the call of modern Shi‘ahs to disclaim their roots has a sinister ring to it. They wish to discredit the claims of sound historiography in doing so, and came up with new explanations which might have some early political legitimism, but has no scientific basis and is not supported by corroborative texts. At most it can be said that though Shi’ism is not entirely based on the teachings of ibn Saba, it has borrowed many Saba’i characteristics which plays an integral in modern Twelver (Ithna ‘Ashari) Shi’ism.

title: User:Mehrosh


text:
Indian New Life League

The Indian New Life League is a denomination of the Christian church, with one congregation in Bhutan.

title: Indian New Life League


text: Talk:Oranjestad, Aruba

title: Talk:Oranjestad, Aruba


text:
Talk:History of Newcastle United F.C.

Subarticle
This is a new sub-article to be linked from Newcastle United F.C.. See Talk:Newcastle United F.C. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AndrewMcQ (talk • contribs) 23:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Beware of recentism
This article is slanted towards recent times - at the moment the sections covering 1881-1992 contain 2,342 words, then for the years 1992-2011 we've got 7,576 words! That amount of detail is really good, but most of it should be moved into the season-by-season articles (e.g. 2011-12 NUFC season - here's an example of a "Good" season article).

This one should only cover historic events and changes - I know the stuff since 1992 means a lot to most of us, but historically Glenn Roeder's unsuccessful transfer bids weren't as important as the 3 championships or 4 FA Cups Newcastle won between 1895 & 1914 (which this section hardly even mentions). If I have time, I'll move some of the less important paragraphs. Responsible? (talk) 03:13, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

 * Really good point. I'm guilty for some amount of the quantity ending up here in a bid to get the main Newcastle United F.C. article up to GA, mainly for simplicity in cleaning that article up. This article and the season article will really benefit if you can reshuffle some of the text around, and maybe we could even get some of them up to GA quality in time...? Fintan264 (talk) 17:12, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

With a bit of shifting, the word count is down to 2,247 for events up to 1992, and 2,986 words for the history since then. There's still scope for editing down the sections on 2004-2011 more (moving content to the season articles), as long as the biggest events are described concisely throughout the article. - Responsible? (talk) 08:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

 * I've edited the article again: so now it's 2,251 words for before Keegan was manager, against 876 words since Keegan's first managerial reign. That means 28% of the article covers events post-1992, which is a fairer proportion. Responsible? (talk) 11:38, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Reduction in Detailed events
Hi,

I've noticed that this page has undergone a major reduction in detail of events between 1992 to the present.

I understand that excessive/unnecessary detail has to be monitored and kept to neutral opinions etc, however previously there were notable and citable events that were responsibly detailed relating to the events taking place between 1992 to the present, particularly the manager's most successful and notable results, as well as events that sparked controversy within the media as well as other clubs. I understand a brief description on the club's main Wikipedia page, but this page should not be so brief it should offer more elaboration of the events, not less.

Notable events that are not detailed are Keegan's 5-0 over Man U, Kenny's decision to sell Keegan's stars such as Les Ferdinand (and how unsuccessful talks to unwrap the deal emerged), as well as the fans displeasure with the cautious brand of football he played as oppose to Keegan's swash buckling attacking style. Ruud's fallout with Shearer and Rob Lee is not well detailed as it should be, and Robson's success and acknowledgement from other club's, players, managers about his ongoing run at Newcastle, as well as his treatment by the board by offering and singing players behind his back, and his critique of young players demanding all the perks. His decision not to sign Boumsong, yet how Souness unbelievably signed him for £8m after he joined his previous club for free. On Souness, several things have not been detailed, his fallout with Bellamy, falling out of europe, the critique of his managing style from his players. Roeder one an argue there isnt much to tell, but the 5-1 defeat to Birmingham was a highlight of his time at Newcastle and has been left out. Sam's time as manager has a bit more to tell, how Freddy brought him in knowing the takeover was inevitable, and how he players were not happy under him. Keegan'w return is ridiculously brief, and his resolve of his dispute with the club should not have been removed. As is Chris Hughton's success int he championship and the backlash from fans when he was fired. Pardew's reign is simply too brief.

I am going to have to edit the page to add more detail to attract more enjoyable content to read. Please keep the breif statements to the clubs main wikipedia page.#

Thanks,

ToonIsALoon (talk) 22:09, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

"Ridiculously brief"
How about researching more information on this?

"The Magpies lifted the League Championship on three occasions (in 1905, 1907, 1909). They also reached five FA Cup finals in the years leading up to World War I in 1914, winners in 1910, and FA Cup runners-up in 1905, 1906, 1908 and 1911."

An important time in the club's history, and it's virtually ignored in this article.

The section in Newcastle United F.C. is even worse.

Responsible? (talk) 01:14, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

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title: Talk:History of Newcastle United F.C.


text:
Talk:Young Ireland

Reasons for POV tag
As requested by Erin Go Bragh, my reason for putting the POV tag on the page is that the article seems to set out to argue a positive case for the group. Some examples:

1. Talk of (apparently) rejecting physical force is not just mentioned, it is stressed. I have removed some of this stress (see the edit history), but I still think it is there.

2. We also have weaselly words such as:
 * "an experienced young Catholic journalist"
 * "a prolific writer of poetry and prose"
 * "unprecedented death and destruction" (although I have now removed this)
 * vauge statements like "British repression" and "first used [to belittle the group] by the English press"

3. The article is totally unreferenced, and this particular POV is apparently supported by such unreferenced statements.

4. The article was written from a personal perspective, and this comes through in a paragraph I removed where it is stated that: This was a personal analysis and probably the worst kind of original research that I have come across on Wikipedia.
 * "The time was probably not ripe for rebellion"
 * "For a detailed account of the 1848 uprising Michael Doheny’s “The Felon’s Track” is one of the most authentic."

The worst part, however, was the following that I removed: "which saw both corrupt Governments and Monarchy’s toppled and felled, with the cry of Liberty, Fraternity and Equality."

The words are weaselly, the interpretation is a personal one as far as I can see (it's certianly not referenced), and it has POV written all over it.

I have removed much obvious POV, but I cannot remove it all since there would be little article left, and it would destroy the rest of the structure. Rather, it needs reworking. Major reworking. Logoistic 16:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I advise you to remove all POV. You are entitled to remove any unreferenced material also. In cases like this it may be best to reduce the article to a stub and start from there. It is better to have a small sound article, than a long unsound one. Tyrenius 20:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

History is a narrative
“Perhaps in no country, but only Ireland, would a plain narrative of wars and revolutions that are past and gone two centuries and a half ago, run any risk of being construed as an attempt to foster enmity between the descendants of two races that fought so long since for mastery in the land. Yet the writer of this short record of the life of the greatest Irish chieftain, is warned that such construction may, and by some assuredly will, be put upon the following story and the writer’s manner of telling it. But as to the narrative itself, undoubtedly the only question ought to be—is it true? And if so—is the truth to be told, or hidden ?—Is it not at all times, in all places, above all things, desirable to hear the truth instead of a lie?” The above narrative is taken from John Mitchel’s Preface to his first book, The Life and Times of Aodh O’Neill, also called Life of Hugh O’Neill, in the 1868 American edition. Mitchel continues, “And for the way in which it is told—the writer does indeed acknowledge a strong sympathy with the primitive Irish race...” It is would be very rare indeed to see such an admission, from a contemporary writer of history today. As to how his historical narrative would be construed, it has been shown to be both true and prophetic. For anyone to suggest that history can be written in a “neutral” way, are both deluding themselves, and everyone else who is interested in history? History writing is full of bias, opinion, interpretation, sympathy and a whole host of other human failings. The best we can hope for is balance! The really great thing about Wikipedia, is that it provides both a “talk page” and a “discussion” page on every subject it covers. This is the platform to put forward your views and opinions. It allows members and none members the opportunity to advance their knowledge on the subject that interests them, through informed discussion. History is written by people, as imperfect as we are, not by robots, or any other type of bots. If you’re not sure about an article, ask, it will not be an automated response, but a living breathing person, who happened to be interested enough in a subject to want to share it with other people. Will the response be open to question, I would be more surprised if it was not. The only people who will view these pages will be people who are interested. With enough genuine interest from people, it will be a first rate page, and an example to follow. So is history to be told or hidden, or handed to bots to bore to death, and suck the life out of it. Domer48

 * Below is a reply to each point you make.

1. Absolutely anyone who has read anything about the Young Irelanders, will have seen Charles Gavan Duffy, described as an experienced journalist. 2.Thomas Davis’s writings are still celebrated in Ireland to day, every year in fact. 3. What did the potato blight cause, a miner drop in population, get real? 4. What would you have British policy described as excessive zeal, rigorously applied? 5. I have sorted out the references used, but since you have not got a clue, what the hell use are they to you. 7.The article was written from the perspective of the young Irelanders, but since you have obviously never read them, how are you to know, ignorance is no excuse. 8. Again, since you know absolutely noting of the subject of the rebellion, you are trying to keep everyone else in the dark with your editing zeal. 9. Again, you have not read anything at all on the subject, so you would not know the Felon’s Track, is one of the most detailed. 10. This was not a personal analyse, or anything like it. It was a narrative of the people and the events. Point out anything in the piece that is not contained in the book list provided. 11. Anything I will go toe to toe on every source. The books by the young Irelanders can only be described a primary sources, what are yours. 12. The personal attack is a mark of your stature and intellect, or was it just a POV violation.

In conclusion, you have removed material of which you have no knowledge, you have not refuted anything that was written, and you have provided no new or additional material. That type of behaviour existed in the middle ages. What you can do, is check the pages for flaws, and help improve it. As to the content, leave it to those who have an interest in the subject.

The only good that can come from this is that it might spark an interest in the Young Irelanders, and that would please me greatly, being able to converse with genuine interest. Domer48
 * Ok, first off I am warning you to cease your personal attacks (e.g. "what the hell use they are to you", "the personal attack is a mark of your stature and intellect"). You may wish to familiarise yourself with this policy at no personal attacks. Secondly, you need to put references within the text to support the points that you make that could be considered orignal research, or of questionable accuracy. Note that even if they seem obvious facts to you, putting in references to support them removes any doubt, and increases the integrity of Wikipedia. Please read Citing sources. You obviously have a lot of sources, so correctly referencing them in the article will then allow for your points to be given their proper weight, that is, if they are true. I would also encourage you to read  avoid peacock terms and  avoid weasel words. Thus, sentances such as "to the cry of Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" should have no place in a factual encyclopedia. Also see Guide to writing better articles, for more information. The text that I removed breaks these Wikipedia policies, and represents unfounded speculation unless you can provide references. I would suggest you avoid vague terms like "British repression" and be more specific about what you are talking about. I leave it to yourself to consult these Wikipedia policies and do justice to your obviously great knowledge of the subject. Just remember to do it the Wikipedia way. Logoistic 01:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

 * You have missed the point completely! You have not addressed the central issue, in my reply to you, which is that you have no knowledge of this subject, and your motivation in obviously personal. That being the case, the only input you have put forward to date is negative in both tone and manner. There was absolutely no welcoming or encouraging remark from you to someone obviously new to the site, on how best to produce an article of quality, and an asset to members and none members alike. If you are going to go around pages, of which, in general you have no interest in or knowledge of, you should at least show some respect. If it is clearly a new member, your attitude should be one of encouragement, support and advice. Do not abuse your experience, and do not issue people warnings!

I am not interested in pushing a point of view; I’m interested in finding out what other people think. I want to make the Young Ireland page the best it can possibly be. I want the page to be challenging, informative and to stretch my knowledge to the limits. By doing this, anyone with an interest in the subject, will benefit. If you are going to intrude, let it be in a supportive and positive manner. Use your experience of the site in such a way, that we can all benefit from it. If you are going to be offended by terms such as “British repression,” when dealing with Young Ireland, you are just going to have to get use to it. Don’t take it personal that is the way they talked. When ever the term is used, and it will be because of the subject, it is directed towards the Government Policy, not the British people! There is absolutely nothing stopping you from putting an opposing view in the article. Now I am willing to accept that we got of on the wrong foot. What I would suggest is that you revert the article, and point out were I am going wrong. You have already pointed out some sites, and I am grateful. I will rectify my style, and you can help in that regard. If there is a point that you find unpleasant, and want me to explain, on the subject of Young Ireland, I will try my best. There is a banner warning above this page, I think it should stay. In fact, I think it should be over every article on history. But that is just my personal point of view. Domer48
 * I warn you one last time to stop personal attacks such as "your motivation [is] obviously personal". Please assume good faith ( assume good faith). I will get another user to look at this to see what they think if you do not accept my view. Logoistic 12:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I will of course assume good faith from here on in, like I have said, I appreciate your experience, I would appreciate your advise, and I would need your support in editing the pages I am interested in. If you are going to help with your edits, please leave a note as to why you remove material. Would it not be more helpful, to inform me in advance of your intension. There is no obligation on you to do this, it would just be a matter of courtesy, respect and done in the spirit of cooperation. For example, why remove the quotes from the John Mitchel page? Why change Honours, to miscellaneous, on the John Mitchel page? I did not add that section, it is apparently there some time, why now? Regards Domer
 * Domer a chara, please chill out, like Logoistic said please fimilairise yourself with with wiki policies. If you have valid points that conform to wiki policy then that will be included in the article.--Vintagekits 12:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Vintagekits, I will do that. As they say, "The only time you make a mistake, is when you learn nothing from it." Experience comes from making mistakes! but I am copping on?
 * Domer, whilst it is ok to use such long-winded sentances (as you have just used above) in addressing other users, please don't let this language creep into Wikipedia articles. The point is to get facts across as quickly and as easilly as possible. It's not a novel, or a piece of poetry, but an encyclopedia. Logoistic 18:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Will try to be less detailed. Domer48

Notes on Roy Foster
User Natalie West your edits were very interesting on the Young Ireland page. If I could just refer you to some books, in relation to Roy, Foster’s: Modern Ireland 1600-1972. They are Charles Gavan Duffy: Conversations With Carlyle (1892), with Introduction, Stray Thoughts On Young Ireland, by Brendan Clifford, Athol Books, Belfast, ISBN 0 85034 1140. (Pg. 32 Titled, Foster’s account Of Young Ireland.) Which deals with Foster’s, Modern Ireland, and Envoi, Taking Leave Of Roy Foster, reviews of his made up Irish Story, Aubane Historical Society, Cork, by Brendan Clifford and Julianne Herlihy. This book also contains the essays Irish Revisionism, School History, And The Invisibility Of Women. A Review Of Roy Foster’s Modern Ireland, by David Alvey, and Past Events And Present Politics Roy Foster’s Modern Ireland, by Brian Murphy osb. With Brendan Clifford’s, Mangling Irish History: Professor Roy Foster’s Achievement Surveyed, and Julianne Herlihy’s, Selling The Product: Some Observations On Roy Foster’s The Irish Story, Telling Tales And Making It Up In Ireland. I was going to include these titles on the additional reading section, at a later date. I found them very informative, and based on their observations, would question the use of Modern Ireland. Having read Modern Ireland, I personally gave up on much of the Modern histories, and focused primarily on primary sources. Regards Domer48

As to your Edits, I would like to here you views on the Repeal Association. The use of the word “Revolutionary” to describe it? In what context are you using the word? The disparaging way they were referred to as Young Ireland, was used before the formed the Irish Confederation. They were called Young Ireland, when still Members of the Repeal Association, and rejected that title. This is a very important point, because they were determined that the Association remain united. The use of the words “Split” and “Splinter” would not be appropriate, the same way your use of the word “disparaging,” is much more appropriate then the one I used. The terms used at the time was seceded, and faction. The use of terminology therefore is very important, as the use of words have changed, so has there meaning. On the prohibiting of the Clontarf meeting, would it not be wise to mention the proclamation that was issued the night before, and how this “projected slaughter” and “salutary lesson,” they felt to be the motivation behind it. On a personal note, what are you views on the use of the term “Famine,” when describing the potato blight? With an over abundance of food in the country at the time, how could it be described as a famine? Domer48

In answer to Dormers points:

Roy Foster

I agree with Dormer in being wary of using Roy Foster as a source and am aware of the criticism levelled at Foster's interpretation of Irish history by some of his academic colleagues. For example Professer Brendon Bradshaw (Queen's Coll,Camb) accused him of being 'ideologically driven' and 'abusing his position' and Peter Beresford Ellis (Fellow of the Royal Historical society)  regards Foster as an apologist for British Imperialism in Ireland. With that in mind, I turned to Foster's chapter on the Reform movement in "Modern Ireland" in an attempt to find some citations to back up the as yet, totally unreferenced article. (not having any other references immediately to hand). I managed to find one citation for the 'monster' meeting at Clontarf being so named after the religious revivialists, and O'Conoll's decision to cancel it for fear of British reprisial and added it to the article, which I do not think is controversial. Otherwise my edit was limited to biographical facts, dates, style, typos and generally wikifying. The article still has a very long way to go in terms of citations etc and Dormer's addition to the footnotes of many of the primary sources is a good start. Natalie West 02:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Right, everyone is "ideologically driven" except the extreme nationalist slant that these articles take.
 * Give me a break. Irish history articles on this encyclopedia are atrocious, and don't even qualify as history. Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:49, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Famine or Genocide?

According to the OED the archaic meaning of the word is 'hunger' and the modern meaning is 'extreme shortage of food' which are obviously two different things- which leads on to how the subject is treated over on the Famine page. The current article is very poor indeed and did not even mention the Young Ireland uprising at all until I added a link recently! Natalie West 02:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Edits to Page
Natilieduerinckx I have changed some of your text. With the references I have attached, you can check them out in the online edition of the book.Hope you agree. Regards Domer48

New Sections/Heads
There is a great deal more information for this article to be done. Some of the Heads would be the Charitable Bequests Act, The Maynooth Grant, The Colleges Bill, The Peace Resolutions. Existing Heads will be expanded over time. --Domer48 22:10, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to the 21st century
This article needs a serious overhaul; it reads very little like a work of modern history, but rather a eulogy for the movement. The fact that the sources cited date from between 1880 and 1951, and ignore half a century of significant historical writing on this period, smacks of an attempt to return Irish history to the ahistorical and hagiographical shadows of national memory and martyrdom from which it was dragged several decades ago.

Cripipper 13:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree that the article needs editing to reflect an encyclopedic tone and contemporary historiography. It is striking that the sources are so old, when I'm sure historians have continued to study this period and movement. Have done some editing for tone, but it needs much more.--Parkwells (talk) 04:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Cripipper, for your critic of the article. With your help we can improve it. I would be interested in the historical writing you mention, if you could include them in the book list it would be really helpful. As to the sources mentioned, they are all primary sources, for the best part. They themselves are used by contemporary writing on the period, and by some, have come to be used as reference work. Dennis Gwynn, who I believe you allude to, is a member of the notable Gwynn family of historians, and find the critic unusual. Though in modern history, from only my own experience, I feel this period has received so much less attention than it should. This is surprising, when one considers the amount of information available. Apart from some of the books mentioned in the books by them, they were also responsible for the publication of a number of newspapers, such as the notables The Nation, The United Irishman, The Irish Felon and The Tribune. Seen in this light, I find the brisk critic interesting. Please feel free to improve and build upon the article and if you could, include these significant historical writings you mention. Thank you again, Regards --Domer48 11:26, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

A few paragraphs or a section on what the YI group did to help the hungry during the 1840s Famine would be a plus. I knew about that a few decades ago but have lost all my refs. It's a big gap in the article.86.42.223.141 11:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Additional Reading
Help needed to put in alphabetical order by author's surname. Did some editing of format, but more is needed. The list is really too lengthy, but I'm not familiar with the histories. Deleted a novel. More should come off the list.--Parkwells (talk) 05:30, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Young Ireland


text:
Wikipedia:List of hoaxes on Wikipedia/Sheer Perfection

Sheer Perfection is a miniseries expected to debut in 2006 on HBO following the lives of two families, the Williamses & the Ellises.

Category:2000s American television miniseries


text:
Liberian companies

Companies in the Republic of Liberia are regulated by a variety of laws. The corporate laws of Liberia were promulgated over 50 years ago to provide an offshore jurisdiction for ship owners and the international financial community. The LISCR (Liberian International Ship & Corporate Registry) has been appointed by the government of Liberia as its agent to manage corporate registry and to act as the sole entity for foreign companies registered in Liberia. The LISCR is headquartered in Dulles, Virginia, US and has an office located in Zurich, Switzerland.

There are two income tax treaties with Sweden and Germany in force.

Additionally, Liberia as a corporate jurisdiction is on OECD’s white-list of countries that have substantially implemented tax transparency and meet the internationally agreed tax standard.

Shipping companies
The Liberian Registry – the largest in the world by gross tonnage – includes over 5,000 ships of more than 244 million gross tons, which accounts for 16 percent of the world's oceangoing fleet. The Liberian fleet is one of the youngest of all nations, with an average vessel age of 12 years. According to the U.S. Maritime Administration, Liberian-flagged vessels carry more than one-third of the oil imported into the United States.

The Liberian Registry is administered by the Liberian International Ship & Corporate Registry (LISCR, LLC), a U.S. owned and operated company that provides the day-to-day management for the Republic of Liberia's (ROL) ship and corporate registry.

In addition to its regional offices in many major maritime centers of the world, the Liberian Registry is also supported by a worldwide network with over 500 Nautical Inspectors and Auditors.

The Liberian Registry is open to any ship owner in the world. In order to enter the Liberian registry, a vessel must be less than 20 years of age and must meet high safety standards.

Liberian flagged ships are able to trade anywhere in the world. There are no crew nationality restrictions and taxes on Liberian vessels are at conservative rates based on the net tonnage. Registration of vessels is eligible to Liberian entities or registered business entities incorporated under other jurisdictions and registered as a Liberian Foreign Maritime Entity.

Documentation
Liberian corporations, LLCs, partnerships, and not-for-profit businesses are easily formed. No special documents are required to be submitted other than an order form confirming the details of the entity requested. They however will only accept formation instructions from a professional user of offshore corporations including ship managers, manning agents, ship owners, etc., as well as trust and company managers, lawyers, accountants, investment companies, etc. They do not accept instructions directly from individuals not engaged professionally in company management or acting as a professional advisor or lawyer.

Subscription rights
The Articles of Incorporation should include at the minimum, the name of the corporation; the purpose of the corporation; the type of shares and total authorized share capital; the name of the incorporator and names of any subscribers of shares and the number of initial directors.

Directors, shareholders and other officers do not need to be registered in Liberia and thus it is not possible to obtain from the public record any form of evidence of directors, shareholders or officers. This particular feature makes the administration of a Liberian Company particularly simple for offshore trust Companies. Unfortunately it can sometimes create difficulties if a Liberian company is to enter into a contract, since the Counter-Party must follow the paper trail to ensure they are dealing with duly elected officials of the Company. For this purpose, Liberian corporations can voluntarily file such information as needed to conduct their business.

Accounts
Liberian companies shall keep correct and complete books and records or account and shall keep minutes of all meetings of shareholders, of actions taken on consent by shareholders, of all meetings of the board of directors, of actions taken on consent by directors and of meetings of the executive committee, if any. There is no requirement to file this information in the Public Register; instead, the Corporation is responsible for the safekeeping of its records. There is no requirement to have audited accounts for a Liberian Corporation. Any decision to audit the accounts is one for the shareholders to take.

Bank secrecy laws
Liberia has no special bank secrecy laws like other tax havens, but this is not a deterrent as few Liberian offshore corporations actually handle their banking transactions within Liberia's territory borders. Moreover, there is no requirement that they must bank in Liberia.

Certified copies of filed corporate records are available for order by the public.

title: Liberian companies


text:
Cann Memorial Botanical Gardens

The Cann Memorial Botanical Gardens (4 hectares / 10 acres) are botanical gardens located at 1500 East Grand Avenue, Ponca City, Oklahoma, United States.

In 1975 the Lester A. Cann private home (circa 1908) and gardens were donated to Ponca City by Elsie Cann Brown, daughter of L.A. and Mary Cann. Lester A. Cann was a civic leader in Ponca City, serving over 25 years as a commissioner and City Manager. The estate was donated with the stipulation that it would be maintained as a memorial garden for the residents of Ponca City.

Workshops and seminars are held in the magnificent two-story prairie home. Renovations were completed in 1977, including 2,500 feet of brick walkways. Visitors may stroll under a wisteria arbor, past a gazebo, around a lily pond, and through beds of perennials, herbs and annuals. More than 70 species of trees have been planted since 1980.

The garden is open to visitors 7 days a week, and there is no charge for visiting. A garden employee is present on weekdays from 7:00 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. to answer questions concerning the plants, flowers, and trees in the garden.

Ponca City's Sage, Rosemary and Thyme Garden Club hosted an annual herb festival on the grounds of the Cann Memorial Botanical Gardens for over 15 years before turning the festival over to Ponca City Herb Festival Inc. in 2012  The festival has been operated by Domestic Violence of Ponca City since 2017. One of the region's premier events, the Ponca City Herb Festival was founded by SRT club member Mary Anne Potter in 1993. Attendance is estimated to average well over 10,000 according to former Herb Festival president Sherry Muchmore. The festival is held on the first Saturday in June each year. Plants, primitive bird houses, yard ornaments, potting sheds, quilts, herbal vinegars and oils, handmade baskets, candles, soaps, furniture, potpourris, stoneware, and much more are provided by over 100 vendors from Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, Colorado and Arkansas.

title: Cann Memorial Botanical Gardens


text:
Talk:Colonial (PRR train)

Bruce Goldberg's Amtrak: The First Decade differs slightly on the chronology here. Amtrak inherits the Colonial as part of the initial system on May 1, 1971. It's Washington-Boston, trains # 170-171. When Amtrak renumbers on November 14 it becomes 173-174 until it's eliminated on April 28, 1973. Fine so far. However, according to the book it's brought back as a Boston-Washington (no return) train on February 15, 1976 (#181). Then, on June 15 it becomes the New York-Newport News (166-167), with an occasional train going on to Boston (not stated directly, but that's probably 181). From February 15, 1977 it's just Boston-Newport News, but the numbers keep shifting. I'm not sure if these changes should be covered here, in the Virginia Service article, or somewhere else, but as it stands both are inaccurate. Mackensen (talk) 12:29, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

This article contains major inaccuracies. The original name of the train was "Colonial Express" which was shortened to "Colonial" on the PRR on April 30, 1939. I believe it was shortened on the New Haven somewhat earlier, but do not have a source. The history of the train from a PRR standpoint is given in "History: Passenger Trains and Through Car Service, Pennsylvania Railroad, 1849-1947" an official PRR document published by D. Wornom of Chicago in 1974, and also in my PRR Chronology on the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society site, prrths.com. Most importantly, the "Maryland" was not an ordinary passenger ferry but a transfer boat or train ferry. Passengers did not detrain. The cars were carried directly from the Harlem River Terminal around Manhattan to Jersey City. There were acutally two succesive ferries named "Maryland," but only the second carried the "Colonial Express." There are descriptions and photos of the "Maryland" in George H. Foster and Peter C. Weiglin's "Splendor Sailed the Sound: The New Haven Railroad and the Fall River Line" (San Mateo, CA: Potentials Group, 1984). I believe "New Rochelle Branch" should be "Harlem River Branch, since New Rochelle is the junction point common to the branch and the main line, but can't give you a source. A New Haven annual report should do.  The connection to the "Titanic" sinking is not apparent.  What happened was that in the wake of the sinking, safety laws were tightened regarding the provisions of lifeboats and life jackets, particularly in winter, when people would be more likely to die of hypothermia before rescue.  These even applied to harbor voyages of a certain length. For its effect on the Sandy Hook Route, see my "Trail of the Blue Comet" West Jersey Chapter, National Railway Historical Society, 1993.  Rather than retrofit the boat, the New Haven simply abandoned the service.  The Hell Gate Bridge was already in the works, so it made little sense to take expensive precautions for only a few years.  As to the later history of the train, after the first few years, Amtrak changed the names and numbers of its Northeast Corridor trains very frequently, and it is not worth keeping track of them. One would have a complete set of timetables to compare each timetable in the series, which is apparently what Goldberg did. Christopher T. Baer, Hagley Museum and Library38.115.62.67 (talk) 15:22, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Titanic comment irrelevant
The Titanic connection to route change is irrelevant. That accident happened mid ocean in 1912. The new PRR station, Pennsylvania Station, opened in 1910, two years before. There is no reference to the claim of Titanic connection.Dogru144 (talk) 22:34, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Colonial (PRR train)


text:
Talk:.NET Compact Framework

List of CF compatible languages
Can someone provide a list of programming languages compatible with the Compact Framework? I tried to find such a list with no success, and I think it would be useful. Cheers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AxiomShell (talk • contribs).
 * Being a subset of the .NET Framework, it's C# and VB.NET. Notably not C++/CLI, the C++ counterpart in the .NET world. There are a few comments from Microsoft around the web about that detail, but the final word on it is that it there is no current plans to support that .NET language on the Compact Framework. -- Northgrove 16:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delphi 2006 did have experimental support for CF 1.0 which is now superseeded by Delphi Prism which should have better, but still not complete, support for this target.--62.224.198.248 (talk) 21:13, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Can't run on WindowsXP PCs - INCORRECT
It is possible to run .net compact framework applications on x86 & x64 architecture running Windows XP i've written several such apps which i run on both my phone and XP, the article needs corrected —Preceding unsigned comment added by TTTF-L (talk • contribs) 08:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, .NET Compact 2.0 FrameWork apps run JUST FINE on WinXP Pro when I tried this. I just created my first HelloWorld app and it works fine on both...--NakiBest 11:24, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Release dates for .NET CF
I've added a release dates column (similar to the one found at the .NET Framework page. I tried my best to find the release dates to as many releases as I could, but it seems that data is harder to come across than I thought.  Most of the references came off the MSDN .NET Development team blog (which I will claim is a recognized authority in these matters).  If anyone can find more of the release dates or the exact days of release, please post them.  Thanks! Sutekh.destroyer (talk) 21:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC) -- F*L*RAP 02:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you! I am a bit confused about 3.5.7283.0 (3.5 RTM/November 19, 2007 + 3.5/January 25, 2008)? Those two releases have the same version 3.5.7283.0? --Hfrmobile (talk) 11:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Non Windows Desktop access
There's room in this article for a brief mention of how to use the CF from other than a Windows Desktop OS, but it should be supported by a citation and presented in NPOV. Just moaning about the "nasty" .msi without presenting a solution helps no-one. Rogerborg (talk) 12:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:.NET Compact Framework


text:
String Quartet No. 14 (Mozart)

The String Quartet No. 14 in G major, K. 387, nicknamed the "Spring" quartet, was composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart in 1782 while in Vienna. In the composer's inscription on the title page of the autograph score is stated: "li 31 di decembre 1782 in vienna". The work was perhaps edited in 1783. This is the first of the Haydn Quartets, a set of six string quartets he wrote during his first few years in Vienna and dedicated to Joseph Haydn.

Movements
Average performances of the whole string quartet vary in length from 26 to 33 minutes. As with all later Mozart quartets, this quartet has four movements:
 * I. Allegro vivace assai
 * II. Menuetto (Trio in G minor)
 * III. Andante cantabile, in C major
 * IV. Molto allegro

The first movement, in G major, contrasts fairly diatonic passages with chromatic runs. According to (Williams, 1997) "it must come as something of a surprise to anyone examining this quartet just how much chromaticism there is in it." In contrast to the standard quartet form, which places the minuet as the 3rd movement, this quartet has the minuet as its 2nd movement (another example of this ordering is the String Quartet No. 17). It is a long minuet, written in the tonic key of G major, with its chromatic fourths set apart by note-to-note dynamics changes. Its trio is in G minor and has a suitably darker and more unsettled mood.

The minuet is followed by a slow movement in the subdominant C major, whose theme explores remote key areas.

The fugal theme of four whole notes in the finale points ahead to the finale of Mozart's "Jupiter" Symphony of 1788, a movement which also begins with four whole notes that are used in a fugal fashion, in the coda, and it also points back to Michael Haydn's Symphony No. 23 in which the finale is also a fugato based on a theme of four whole notes, which Mozart copied out the first few bars of and was mistakenly entered into Köchel's original catalog as K. 291. Mozart uses an identical 5-note motif in the opening bar of his second duo for violin and viola, K. 424, also associated with Michael Haydn.

title: String Quartet No. 14 (Mozart)


text:
Loch Thom

Loch Thom is a reservoir which since 1827 has provided a water supply to the town of Greenock in Inverclyde, Scotland. It is named after the civil engineer Robert Thom who designed the scheme which created the reservoir and delivered water via a long aqueduct known as The Cut. Today, as well as providing a water supply, the loch is used for sport fishing and forms part of the Clyde Muirshiel Regional Park with several attractive walks and a centre at Cornalees Bridge providing nature study facilities.

The loch is about 2.4 km from north to south, curving to the east in a rough C-shape, and is at an elevation of about 195 m above sea level. From the northern arm an outlet feeds southwest a short distance to a compensation reservoir at the centre of the "C", which then connects at Cornalees Bridge to the start of The Cut.

History
In the late 18th century Greenock was a rapidly expanding seaport with industries developing as the industrial revolution gathered pace. Its location on the north slopes of hills sweeping down to the south bank of the Firth of Clyde meant that several fast flowing streams provided supplies, and a number of wells provided clean water for domestic use. This was supplemented in 1773 by a piped water system designed by James Watt supplying some areas, but there was increasing demand for water powered mills.

On the far side of the hills to the south of the town a natural dip held a freshwater lake known as Shaws Water at a level high above the town. The civil engineer Robert Thom from Rothesay prepared a scheme to turn this into a reservoir and create the aqueduct which became known as The Cut.

The Shaws Water Joint Stock Company named by Sir Michael Shaw Stewart, 5th Baronet and friends, which was incorporated on 10 June 1825 with capital of £30,000. The scheme was officially opened on 16 April 1827. On that day a grain mill, paper mill, power loom manufactory and a sugar refinery made use of the power from the water running north down to the sea for a vertical height of around 170 m, at a rate of about 21000 cuft of water per day. In 1845 The Kelly Cut was constructed to bring more water to Loch Thom from the south. Numerous other mills were added in Greenock to make use of the supply, including what became The Merino Mills weaving woollen cloth, and a mill grinding clay for a local pottery works. A drought caused the reservoir to run dry in 1852 stopping work at the factories that relied on it.

The water supply proved inadequate for growing domestic demand, and in 1872 another reservoir was created immediately to the east of Loch Thom at Gryffe Reservoir. Together with thirteen smaller reservoirs nearby they provide almost 650,000,000 cubic feet (18,000,000 m³) of water supply in total

Greenock Cut Centre
Loch Thom forms part of Clyde Muirshiel Regional Park, a public organisation aimed at providing countryside access and education. Several nature trails are provided, and the Greenock Cut Centre adjacent to Cornalees Bridge (which was the centre's former name) provides educational facilities at a ranger base, along with car parking, refreshments and public toilets. Location:.

The Cut
From Cornalees Bridge The Cut runs west then turns northward following along the contour of Dunrod Hill which it follows round until running eastwards directly above the town of Greenock at Overton, having come a distance of 9 km. On the way it collects some of the water from streams that cross its path, and a series of sluice gates incorporated an ingenious automatic way of releasing surplus water. As shown in the picture of a restored mechanism, when the aqueduct is over full, water flows down the pipe in the foreground and fills the bucket, which then pulls the chain down over the pulley wheel and lifts the counterweight and the lever opening the sluice gate. Small holes in the bucket allow the water to drain slowly out, so when the inflow stops the counterweight eventually pulls the sluice gate lever down and lifts the empty bucket.

The cut provided a water flow to a series of falls running through water wheels powering various industrial processes, including a papermill, woollen and cotton mills, ropeworks, several sugar refineries, an iron foundry and shipbuilding works including production of steam engines and boilers.

From its opening, the nearly level footpath formed on the embankment to the downhill side of the aqueduct proved a great attraction, and "walking the Cut" continues to be popular.

Literature
The poet W. S. Graham's later work powerfully evokes his childhood in and around Greenock. In "Loch Thom", included in Implements in their Places, published in 1977, the loch becomes the focus of his memories:

The curlew's cry travelling still

Kills me fairly. In front of me

The grouse flurry and settle. GOBACK

GOBACK GOBACK FAREWELL LOCH THOM.

title: Loch Thom


text:
Talk:Interstate 530

530 Extension
The 530 extension at Pine Bluff will actually be AR 530. It is being built to expressway standards, but not freeway/interstate standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by US 71 (talk • contribs) 17:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

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Directional layout of article
This article has been tagged because it wasn't written in a south-to-north direction as normally required by WP:USRD. Normally that would be a valid criticism, but I submit that is inappropriate for this article for these reasons: For a better understanding of how these issues can complicate mile markers (and articles) on spur freeways that may become part of bigger freeways, see Interstate 540 (Arkansas), Interstate 49 in Arkansas, and Arkansas Highway 549. The original I-540 to Fort Smith was mileposted from I-40 in Van Buren south, as it is now. When the former northern segment (now I-49) was opened fully from I-40 in Alma to Bentonville, it was mileposted assuming the southern end of original I-540 (at the Oklahoma state line) was mile 0, thus making its first marker mile 20 just north of I-40; that forced new mile markers and renumbering of freeway exits in Northwest Arkansas as the former US 71 freeway there was built assuming I-40 was mile 0. Original I-540 was supposed to be re-signed as well, but it never was. When the northern spur became I-49, the mileage signs on both segments were left unchanged -- correct for original I-540, but not for the northern spur (even though preliminary mileage for the unbuilt I-49 Western Arkansas segment is available *and* was used to milepost both the Fort Chaffee and Bella Vista segments of AR 549/Future I-49).
 * The reason WP:USRD favors south-to-north is that is the usual progression of mile markers within states on the interstate system (and other highways in some states as well), such that mile 0 is at the south end of the road/state line. However, I-530 mile markers run north-to-south starting at I-30 in Little Rock, thus reflecting distance from its parent interstate. (As the text notes, this is normal for true spur 3DIs like I-530.)
 * If WP:USRD is to be followed, WHICH southern terminus should be used? The southern terminus of present I-530 (Exit 46, now locally known as the Pines Mall interchange but may be known more in the near future for the Saracen Casino being built nearby)? The southern terminus of the AR 530 segment branching from I-530 at Exit 44, at AR 11 south of Star City? The south end of the most southerly segment of AR 530 built so far, at US 278 between Monticello & Wilmar? Or the planned southern terminus of AR 530 at Future I-69, on the not-yet-built western half of the Monticello bypass? This is especially problematic as even though AR 530 is intended to be an extension of I-530 (and is designated as SIU 28 of Interstate 69 in Arkansas), it has NOT been designated as "Future I-530" by AASHTO (unlike the planned I-69 mainline and the US 67 freeway aka Future I-57).

Ultimately, my suggestion would be to simply ignore WP:USRD (or get an exemption if possible) and leave this article as is. However, that should be decided by a consensus; I certainly don't want a repeat of the revert war I got into a few weeks back on Press Your Luck where some other editor decided a hidden instruction he apparently buried in the guts of a template was somehow Wikipedia policy. (Not only did I not know about it till he reluctantly posted a link to his so-called "easily findable" template on his SECOND revert, but IMO his instruction was inappropriate for that article. Still haven't even read his tirades on my talk page; I'm too disgusted with his attitude to go back into the battle.) --RBBrittain (talk) 17:31, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

 * I have to 100% support this, per above. It may be for the best to remove the template as 1) no one has changed it in the 2.5 years it's been up, 2) no one has challenged this in the 1.5 years since this was first brought up in the talk, and 3) WP:USRD/STDS states that the "progression should follow the mileposts as they are maintained by the state, typically from south to north, west to east"...if ARDOT is atypical with this interstate and signposts it from N-to-S, then this template should be removed. Wwnws98 (talk) 01:57, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Interstate 530


text: User talk:69.168.48.221

title: User talk:69.168.48.221


text:
Walter Pandiani

Walter Gerardo Pandiani Urquiza (born 27 April 1976) is a Uruguayan football manager and former player who played as a striker. He is the current manager of Miramar Misiones.

His performances for Peñarol earned him a move to Deportivo in Spain, where he remained for the vast majority of his career, also representing Mallorca, Espanyol (twice) and Osasuna. He also spent a year with Birmingham City in England.

Over 12 seasons, Pandiani amassed La Liga totals of 279 games and 82 goals.

Early years and Deportivo
Born in Montevideo, Pandiani started his career with hometown club Progreso, moving on to Basáñez and Peñarol, the latter also in the country's capital. In December 1999 he agreed terms to join Deportivo La Coruña as a replacement for his compatriot Sergio Martínez, and the move was officially completed the following January when he signed a five-and-a-half-year deal for an undisclosed fee, still remaining with Peñarol until the end of the season.

Pandiani made his debut for the Spaniards on 27 August 2000, coming from the bench for Diego Tristán in a 2–0 win over Espanyol at Estadio Riazor in the Supercopa de España return match. Despite never being an undisputed starter for the Galician team he was one of their most important attacking elements, often scoring as a substitute, netting 13 goals during the 2003–04 season.

Pandiani, who had a successful loan stint at Mallorca while still at Depor, moved to Birmingham City in the Premier League, also on loan, in January 2005, after a series of run-ins with coach Javier Irureta. He scored a goal on his debut against Southampton in a 2–1 home win, and went on to score three more in the season, prompting manager Steve Bruce to sign him on a permanent contract for a reported fee of £3 million.

During his time at Deportivo, Pandiani bought a big red truck which he drove to training, a type of vehicle that he is a fan of, which he kept while at Deportivo, Espanyol and Osasuna. He personalised it with his nickname "El Rifle", a Uruguayan flag, and the emblems of his club and Uruguayan club Peñarol.

Espanyol
Having failed to continue to display his previous form, Pandiani returned to Spain on 13 January 2006, after completing a move to Espanyol for £1 million.

In his first full season he scored only seven La Liga goals, including a first-half hat-trick against eventual champions Real Madrid in the Santiago Bernabéu Stadium, but was top scorer in the 2006–07 UEFA Cup with eleven as his club reached the final, which they lost on penalties to Sevilla.

During his time at Espanyol, Pandiani, and Barcelona's José Manuel Pinto, drove in the 2011 Barcelona "Monster Jam" monster truck event.

Osasuna
For 2007–08, Pandiani joined Osasuna. Scarcely used in his first year, he was instrumental for the Navarrese in the following campaign, especially after the arrival in mid-October of coach José Antonio Camacho, finishing as the club's top scorer.

Osasuna's first goal of the 2010–11 season only came in the fourth matchday, and the 34-year-old Pandiani scored it through a header as the team came from behind to win it 3–1 against Real Sociedad, at home. On 30 January 2011, during half-time of a 1–0 home win against Real Madrid, he was involved in a "verbal spat" with Cristiano Ronaldo, suggesting afterwards that "As a footballer he is a phenomenon but to do the things he does, maybe he has a screw loose."

Later career
The 35-year-old Pandiani returned to Espanyol for 2011–12, signing a one-year contract and acting mainly as backup to youth graduate Álvaro Vázquez. On 22 September he came from the bench to score the game's only goal at home against Getafe, in stoppage time. On 27 October he repeated the feat, albeit not so late in the game, with a powerful header at home to Real Betis.

In late August 2012, Pandiani signed a one-year contract with Segunda División club Villarreal, where his 18-year-old son Nico was a C-team player. On his debut, at home to Guadalajara on 2 September, he entered the game as a second-half substitute and scored the winning goal, and did the same the following week in another narrow win, at Ponferradina.

In late January 2013, Pandiani and Nico left Villarreal and joined Atlético Baleares of the Segunda División B. They both started in Nico's second senior match, and Pandiani scored in the 2–1 defeat away to Sant Andreu on 12 May.

In October 2013, the pair returned to Uruguay and signed for Primera División club Miramar Misiones. Pandiani scored three times in the six remaining matches of the 2013–14 Apertura, as his team finished next to bottom, and played regularly during the Clausura but scored only twice as they repeated their previous finish, which contributed to relegation.

Pandiani returned to the Barcelona area where he spent the 2014–15 season coaching junior teams at Masnou, where two of his sons played. He said that although he had always wanted to coach, he still thought of himself as a player and was open to offers; in June 2015, he signed for Lausanne-Sport of the Swiss Challenge League, with the remit of supervising and teaching the tricks of the trade to the 15-year-old striker Andi Zeqiri, who had already made his first-team debut. The club won promotion to the Super League as champions in his only season; his one goal was an equaliser in a 1–1 home draw with Aarau on 4 April, taking Walter Samuel's record as oldest person to score in either of the top two divisions of Swiss football, though the Argentine played for Basel in the top flight.

Pandiani announced his retirement on 16 June 2016 after a 23-year professional career, at the age of 40. After he retired, his truck was auctioned in Barcelona with 518,000 miles on the clock.

International career
Despite his relatively successful career in Spain, Pandiani only received four caps for Uruguay, the first coming on 28 March 2001 in a 1–0 home defeat against Paraguay in the 2002 World Cup qualifiers.

Managerial career
Pandiani returned to Masnou after retiring, now as a first-team manager. Sacked on 2 November 2016, he was appointed at the helm of Europa's Juvenil A squad on 13 December.

On 27 June 2017, Pandiani was named manager of Hospitalet's youth squad. Two years later, he was given his first senior managerial job at Lorca in the Tercera División. He left on 30 December 2019, with the team in seventh place.

Following a spell at Dibba Al-Hisn in the United Arab Emirates, where he signed his son Axel, Pandiani was hired at Cerro in the Uruguayan Segunda División in June 2021. He lost in the promotion playoffs to Defensor in his first season and was sacked in July 2022 with the team in fourth.

On 27 July 2022, Pandiani signed for Cerrito, in last place in the top flight. He was fired on 30 August after taking two points from five games.

Pandiani was announced as the new manager of Albion on 20 December 2022, ahead of the 2023 season in the second division. He left the club at the end of the campaign, and took over Miramar Misiones in the top tier on 27 May 2024.

Style of play
Nicknamed El Rifle (The Rifle), Pandiani's best assets were his strength and aerial ability.

International

 * Source:

Honours
Peñarol
 * Uruguayan Primera División: 1999

Deportivo
 * Copa del Rey: 2001–02
 * Supercopa de España: 2000, 2002

Mallorca
 * Copa del Rey: 2002–03

Espanyol
 * Copa del Rey: 2005–06
 * UEFA Cup runner-up: 2006–07

Lausanne
 * Swiss Challenge League: 2015–16

Individual
 * UEFA Cup Top Scorer: 2006–07

title: Walter Pandiani


text:
Ministry of Aviation

The Ministry of Aviation was a department of the United Kingdom government established in 1959. Its responsibilities included the regulation of civil aviation and the supply of military aircraft, which it took on from the Ministry of Supply.

In 1967, the Ministry of Aviation merged into the Ministry of Technology which took on the supply of military aircraft, while regulatory responsibilities were switched to the Board of Trade.

Ministers of Aviation

 * 14 October 1959: Duncan Sandys
 * 27 July 1960: Peter Thorneycroft
 * 16 July 1962: Julian Amery
 * 18 October 1964: Roy Jenkins
 * 23 December 1965: Frederick Mulley
 * 7 January 1967 – 15 February 1967: John Stonehouse

Parliamentary Secretaries

 * 22 October 1959: Geoffrey Rippon
 * 9 October 1961: Christopher Woodhouse
 * 16 July 1962: Basil de Ferranti
 * 3 December 1962: Neil Marten
 * 20 October 1964: John Stonehouse
 * 6 April 1966 – 7 January 1967: Julian Snow

Permanent Secretaries

 * 1959: Sir William Strath
 * 1960: Henry Hardman (knighted in 1962)
 * 1963: Sir Richard Way
 * 1966: Sir Richard Clarke
 * 1966–7: Sir Ronald Melville

title: Ministry of Aviation


text: User talk:70.19.41.49

title: User talk:70.19.41.49


text:
String Quartet No. 14

String Quartet No. 14 may refer to:

 * String Quartet No. 14 (Beethoven) by Ludwig van Beethoven
 * String Quartet No. 14 (Dvořák) by Antonín Dvořák
 * String Quartet No. 14 (Hill) by Alfred Hill
 * String Quartet No. 14 (Milhaud), Op. 291, No. 1, by Darius Milhaud
 * String Quartet No. 14 (Mozart), Spring by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
 * String Quartet No. 14 (Schubert), Death and the Maiden by Franz Schubert
 * String Quartet No. 14 (Shostakovich) by Dmitri Shostakovich
 * String Quartet No. 14 (Spohr) by Louis Spohr
 * String Quartet No. 14 (Villa-Lobos) by Heitor Villa-Lobos

title: String Quartet No. 14


text: User talk:83.70.248.150

title: User talk:83.70.248.150


text:
Talk:Distributed Component Object Model

Microsoft Controversy
I remember reading up into DCE several years ago, I found a lot of accusations on the web that Microsoft "hijacked" a lot of code from DCE/RPC in "MSRPC" MSRPC is derived from the DCE 1.1 reference implementation, but has been copyrighted by Microsoft. None of the UNIX vendors at the time wanted to implement DCE/RPC it at the time.

Later on, DCOM would be 'donated' by MicroSoft to the Open Group as a marketing stunt. The "D" to COM was due to extensive use of DCE/RPC – more specifically Microsoft's enhanced version, known as MSRPC. However, DCOM is pretty worthless without a bunch of application-level class libraries, such as ODBC, OLE DB, ADO, and ASP to run on top of it. Microsoft never released these specifications to the public, so these technologies have never been available for Unix. DCOM was 'donated' to Open Group as a marketing stunt.

Shouldn't this issue be addressed somewhere?

 * Sure - with the appropriate references, that would make a great addition to this article. Merenta (talk) 20:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Any of that might be worth including if it is true but you should have something indicating it is true before proceeding. My impression is that most of what you are saying is inaccurate or wrong. Start by understanding the relevance of COM to DCOM. Sam Tomato (talk) 21:11, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

DCOM is not depreciated in favor of .Net
Apprently the .NET CLR is a DCOM object, refering to Windows Internals fifth edition, so how come .Net depreciate COM? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bibo1978 (talk • contribs) 08:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Marshalling
This article implies that Marshalling is (a proprietary) part of DCOM yet it also says that "DCE/RPC has strictly defined rules regarding marshalling". As far as I know, the marshalling is done by COM and is therefore not relevnat to DCOM. Sam Tomato (talk) 21:16, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

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Essential difference between COM and DCOM
I think that COM is a representation of an abstract or concrete set of software interfaces and (when concrete) their implementations in code (and represented by a GUID (Global User IDentifier)). It has a similar binary representation as a C+ Class (in an .h Include file and a .cpp Instantiation file). DCOM adds an Index for mapping from a Method text name to the offset in the COM file (and a name/version for the object, like "NextPage.1"). Marshaling is the serialization, or conversion to text, of binary arguments. The DCOM implementation itself converts from text back to binary. All text is in 16-bit Unicode. I'm sure I have got some of this wrong, but COM and DCOM objects are much simpler than this article would suggest, with its pervasive use of Microsoft-coined words. DCOM has a set of development tools to make it easier to use than raw COM. DCOM objects can be called directly from script code. David Spector (talk) 22:14, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Distributed Component Object Model


text:
Talk:Ailanthus

Untitled
from:windsurfer88 I was looking for the spanish common name for «ailanthus altissima»
 * Nombre común: Allanto - MPF 22:07, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I think some of the material from this page might belong on the specific page Tree of Heaven. This page should be limited to material strictly about all species of the Ailanthus genus. If no one objects in the near future, I may just move this material over myself and leave this page as a skeleton to be filled in once more is known about the Ailanthus genus--it would help if we had more information about other species in the genus. Cazort 18:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Agreed, though a few of the details (despite being given for A. altissima) do apply to the whole genus (e.g. tree size, pinnate leaves) and could be retained here with suitable re-wording - MPF 22:26, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have any pictures of another Ailanthus species? I think that would enrich this page. Cazort 00:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know how good the Ailanthus is as combustible, firewood, for a home fireplace? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.202.102.136 (talk) 15:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[] Considered invasive species in Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.111.36.141 (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Could someone please create the artile of....
Ailanthus excelsa as the plant is of antibacterial, antifungal, antifertility and antifeeding potent--222.64.222.141 (talk) 04:50, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VSC-496NS9F-H&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=976871606&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4d5e0caff5c0f3c458a84ce4e96e84e0 --222.64.222.141 (talk) 04:53, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T8D-4MX56FY-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=976869311&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c19e540254e1078a69738f3979e9866e --222.64.222.141 (talk) 04:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/78002961/abstract --222.64.222.141 (talk) 04:56, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112393028/abstract --222.64.222.141 (talk) 04:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Ambonese - Amboyna
'(...derived from ailanto, an Ambonese word probably meaning "tree of the gods" or "tree of heaven")[2]' The reference is to a print version of the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica. In the online version, we find that it is derived from "Amboyna". The wikilink is to a page about the Ambonese people; the page about the language is called Ambonese Malay, a "Malay creole". My question is twofold: (1) Is Amboyna the same language as Ambonese Malay? (2) Is 'ailanto' from Ambonese Malay, or some other Ambonese language, possibly a non-creole predecessor? Peter Chastain  [¡habla!]  12:35, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ailanthus


text:
User:Glacenoire

wut

title: User:Glacenoire


text: User talk:84.58.48.107

title: User talk:84.58.48.107


text: User talk:12.148.146.177

title: User talk:12.148.146.177


text:
Talk:Goongarrie National Park

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title: Talk:Goongarrie National Park


text:
Bundesautobahn 61

is an autobahn in Germany that connects the border to the Netherlands near Venlo in the northwest to the interchange with A 6 near Hockenheim. In 1965, this required a redesign of the Hockenheimring.

The autobahn runs parallel to the A 3 on the opposite side of the Rhine. Between Mönchengladbach and Bergheim in the north and Worms, Ludwigshafen and Speyer in the south, it cuts through the landscapes of Eifel and Hunsrück, avoiding areas of dense population while still in proximity to Cologne, Bonn, Koblenz and Bingen.

The A 61, built in the 1970s, is the most western connection from the Netherlands and Belgium to southern Germany so many trucks and tourists from these countries frequent the A 61.

Between Kreuz Mönchengladbach and Wanlo, the speed limit is 120 km/h.

The section between the junctions Wanlo and Jackerath was upgraded to three lanes in 2005. The speed limit there is 130 km/h, paid for by RWE Power that in return received permission to close a section of A 44 for their Garzweiler surface mining operation. By 2017, the A 44 will be restored and the Wanlo-Jackerath-section of the A 61 will be closed instead.

Between Dreieck Erfttal and Kreuz Bliesheim the A 1 and A 61 run concurrently. The motorway has three lanes each way and a variable speed limit here.

Since 4 April 2012, the A 61 continues into the Netherlands as A74. This short motorway connects the A 61 at the border with the Dutch A 73. Previously, all traffic had to go through the city of Venlo.

Part of the A61 motorway near the village of Gelsdorf had been designed for use as a runway to service travel to the nearby Government bunker facility and in an emergency a section would have been dedicated for use as an airport with spacious aircraft parking spaces at both ends disguised as roadside car parks.

Exit list

 * colspan="2"|
 * Netherlands
 * Netherlands

(new exit)

 * }

title: Bundesautobahn 61


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/JYCO

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Nufy8 22:45, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

JYCO
Advert. Alr 22:28, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ad. Bubamara 22:32, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ad policy violation DV8 2XL 22:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ad. DES (talk) 23:43, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete ad spam. -- DS1953 00:40, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/JYCO


text:
User talk:Phosphatrane

File source problem with File:Maerkl.png
Thank you for uploading File:Maerkl.png. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created [ in your upload log]. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 13:01, 2 May 2010 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:01, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Proposed Image Deletion
A deletion discussion has just been created at Category talk:Unclassified Chemical Structures, which may involve one or more orphaned chemical structures, that has you user name in the upload history. Please feel free to add your comments.  Ron h jones (Talk) 23:02, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

All files in category Unclassified Chemical Structures listed for deletion
One or more of the files that you uploaded or altered has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it/them not being deleted. Thank you.

Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of MGA73 (talk) at 18:15, 28 November 2011 (UTC).

title: User talk:Phosphatrane


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Formulaic

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Woohookitty 08:18, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Formulaic
Dicdef, bordeline nonsense. Alr 22:28, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to Wiktionary - word is existant and in use in literary criticism DV8 2XL 22:53, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy as patent nonsense of the second kind: "irredemably confused". Do not transwiki, as Wiktionary wouldn't want tripe like this, and other Wiki's are not AfD's dumping ground. -Splash 23:19, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete or rewite and transwiki. This is not nonsense -- I have no problem following the imagery here, and if this appeard in a critical essay I might even praise the writing. (it is saying that a fomulaic movie or book is like a meal created strictly by recipie, w/no originality, and i agree.) The writing is a bit too poetic for wikipedia, and as it stands it is nothing but a defiination, if not precisely a dicdef. Could possibly be merged into an article on Literary creativity or List of terms in literary criticism (if either existed) or some such topic, but not a proper wikipedia article as it stands, and article titles are not usually adjectives. DES (talk) 23:40, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not worth the effort to transwiki. --Carnildo 23:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect to formula. -Sean Curtin 01:40, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.