text:
Talk:Scientology and psychiatry

Lisa McPherson Inclusion is Slightly Misleading
The death of Lisa McPherson is included as an example of Scientology's opposition to psychiatry. While she did apparently have mental issues, her death was caused by neglect (in the most positive interpretation towards the Church of Scientology), rather than a direct result of her mental health as her inclusion implies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JSory (talk • contribs) 08:45, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

 * Not 'neglect'; torture. McPherson died because of Scientology's method of handling psychotic breaks -- forced isolation and confinement, and zero verbal communication with the patient -- which is brutal on the patient and 'administered' by un-trained personnel. Their choice to go get her out of the hospital to avoid psychiatric treatment and their misguided alternative mental 'treatment' warrants its inclusion in this article. Their "Legal waivers" (included in this article) are a direct result of Scientology's attempt to reduce their liability for 'mental cases' and the inclusion of these clauses in their contracts is a direct result of the criminal and civil cases that were brought against them because of the death of Lisa McPherson. Grorp (talk) 09:28, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Is there a source for "Scientology's method of handling psychotic breaks -- forced isolation and confinement and zero verbal communication"? I'm mostly concerned because I think there is a credible position to view this is more the effect of neglect or possibly premeditated action rather than the specific result of Scientology's procedure for handling mental illness. In more clear words, do we actually have evidence (supported by WP:RS) that "their misguided alternative mental treatment" was the actual cause of death, and not incompetence or malice? JSory (talk) 06:56, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are many sources. I don't have time to find a bunch of them, but there's an entire chapter about the Lisa McPherson case in Mike Rinder's book as well as the McPherson case being discussed in multiple Wikipedia articles (where there are many citations). Start with Introspection Rundown, Death of Lisa McPherson, Lisa McPherson Trust, Bob Minton. There's also a significant amount of content in the book Inside Scientology: The Story of America's Most Secretive Religion. The McPherson case was one of the highest profile cases Scientology fought to "go away". If you want to dispute the inclusion of McPherson in this article, you're going to have to read a lot more about the case.

 * But I suppose if you want to narrow it down, look into anything related to "Introspection Rundown". There's much written about how it was created, why, with whom, etc. The short story is this: one person on the Apollo ship had a psychotic break, Hubbard confined him, he went stark raving violent mad, finally calmed down, Hubbard wrote up his "Introspection Rundown" based on [allegedly] lots of research, and anyone thereafter who shows symptoms of a psychotic break is confined and no one is allowed to talk to them. The Introspection Rundown is Scientology's treatment for psychotic breaks. Look it up. Grorp (talk) 09:19, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Reference section needs a good cleanup
The citations need a thorough going-through to update for proper URL placement, are URLs dead (get an archive version), website, date, etc. So much to clean up. I got up to cite 15 out of 139. Grorp (talk) 06:22, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Quotes to verify
From very untrustworthy sites, but useful if true: "So my only quarrel with psychiatry is their ethics are out. Frieda Fromm-Reichmann wrote a book… in which she begged throughout the book for the psychiatrist and his profession to get in his own ethics on his own practitioners.:  Suppressives and GAEs, an LRH lecture 2 August 1966

"A person who is insane is in pretty agonizing shape to begin with. To then hurt him or her brutally, use the patient as a sexual toy as Frieda Fromm-Reichmann attests in her book of warnings to psychiatrists, to use a healing technology for extortion are all crimes." Pain-Drug-Hypnosis ? Feoffer (talk) 05:00, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note for future reference: Hubbard on wartime psych eval in lectureFeoffer (talk) 07:13, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

 * First quote is extracted from here, on pdf-page 243 (or search document for word "quarrel"). The lecture is titled "Suppressives and GAEs". The tape lecture 'code' is 6608C02 (sometimes written as 660802) representing a lecture given on August 2, 1966. I cannot find anything about the second quote, but it doesn't actually sound like Hubbard (because the speaker/writer is implying psychiatry is a healing technology). Do you have any link to it so I can examine the stuff surrounding this text? Grorp (talk) 08:12, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow! thanks for the quick reply on the first one!   The second quote is listed here, any idea if it's legit?
 * In general, please be on the look out for Hubbard making specific mention of named mental health providers or facilities from earlier in life. Hubbard's work is so extensive and the autobiographical statements appear to be mixed in ad hoc, making them needles in a giant haystack.    I just encountered a youtube clip of a 1950s lecture where Hubbard mentions an unnamed officer who's forced by the crew to sleep in the chain locker aboard the YP-422 -- where have we heard that punishment before?   Feoffer (talk) 09:48, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

 * I just came back from a few rabbit hole dives. The table of contents for that link is here. Reading forward, it describes these as essays intended for a book that was never published. The date of Pain-drug-hypnosis, 2 March 1969 doesn't correspond to any taped lecture or transcript of a lecture that I can find. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist as a lecture, however. The intro mentioned these essays were mostly published in Freedom Magazine. I wasn't able to find a Freedom mag from 1969, but that's probably your best bet to ID it as Hubbard... if you can find a scan of an old Freedom mag. Doesn't have to be online. Not sure why you care about Hub naming names. Send me an email; I'm curious. Grorp (talk) 10:49, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "Pain-drug-hypnosis, 2 March 1969 doesn't correspond to any taped lecture or transcript of a lecture that I can find."
 * Good to know!  I'm content to dismiss it.
 * Not sure why you care about Hub naming names.
 * Because we want to accurately characterize the nature and timeline of Hubbard's views of psychiatrists.  Some he speaks highly of, some he speaks very poorly of.   The Frieda Fromm-Reichmann quote raises the fascinating possibility that even after denouncing most psychiatrists as evil, he was still arguing there were good ones -- that's not as black and white as we might have previously expected.
 * The Boston Patrol Boat incident is fascinating because it establishes that 'a night in the chain locker' was a punishment Hubbard knew about long before he is alleged to have locked a child in a chain locker during the Sea Org days. (It's also fascinating because it suggests the possibility that Hubbard _was_ the officer locked in the chain locker.) Feoffer (talk) 11:23, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

 * The Fromm quotes are just Hub's tactic of showing 'look, everyone, even other psychs think the psychs are too brutal, unethical, and evil.' Hub has been anti-psych since they ignored/dismissed/rejected his Dianetics book he tried to present as a valid therapy. As for the chain locker, he could have simply heard a tale of a chain locker lockup and spun it into a colorful story, as he was wont to do, then used it as a punishment on the Apollo. Not only was Hub a narcissist and a paranoid, he also had a temper and a mean streak. Grorp (talk) 00:37, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That's absolutely what Hubbard was doing in that quote, but it's still a fascinating datapoint. He starts out praising Thompson and White, but by the 80s, Psychlos have evolved into inhuman alien monsters in Hubbard's writings. Tracking down the last time Hubbard said anything remotely good about psychiatry helps us gain insight into that timeline.
 * Similarly, Hubbard's knowledge of specific psychiatrists and facilities prior to 1950 point to an era when he may have been a client, patient, family member of a patient, volunteer, or some overlap of multiple roles.
 * he could have simply heard a tale of a chain locker lockup and spun it into a colorful story
 * Of course -- but something happened to Hubbard in the Boston Navy Yard that led to the commandant declaring him temperamentally unfit for command. What was it, and is it related to Hubbard recollections of a crew of criminals who nearly starve an officer while confining him to the chain locker.   Feoffer (talk) 01:15, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Have fun with your curiosity. I, on the other hand, have not two sparks of curiosity left about Hubbard, having read so much bizarre stuff about the man that nothing can surprise me any more. I'm just documenting facts. Feel free, however, to hit me up for citation-hunting when needed. Grorp (talk) 02:35, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Death of Whitney Mills (2022)
Another Scientology/Minkoff/psychosis fuckup.

Adding here until I can figure where this should go. Other editors are encouraged to take this and run with it, without waiting for me. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 02:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Scientology and psychiatry


text:
Sylvain N'Diaye

Sylvain Patrick Jean N'Diaye (born 25 June 1976) is a former professional footballer who played as a defensive midfielder. Born in France, he made 24 appearances for the Senegal national team.

Club career
Born in Paris, N'Diaye played for Bordeaux, who loaned him to Martigues, Belgian First Division's Gent, Toulouse, Lille and Marseille. Whilst at Marseille, he started in the 2004 UEFA Cup Final.

Other than in Belgium, he also had abroad stints with Spain's Levante, helping the team achieve top flight promotion in 2006, and Tenerife. In July 2008, he returned to France, signing with Ligue 2 outfit Reims. On 12 July 2010, he signed for Cannes.

International career
N'Diaye received 17 international caps for Senegal, and participated at the 2002 World Cup. However, he played no minutes for the quarterfinalists.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Sylvain N'Diaye


text:
Coastal Air

Founded in 1976 by Michael Foster, Coastal Air Transport is a St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands-based airline that provides service to several Caribbean destinations including St. Eustatius, Nevis, Dominica, Anguilla and St. Kitts. Coastal Air operates Cessna 402 and 404 nine passenger airplanes.

Destinations

 * Dominica-Canefield
 * Anguilla
 * Saint Croix
 * Nevis
 * Saint Kitts
 * Sint Eustatius
 * Sint Maarten

Fleet
the Coastal Air fleet includes:

title: Coastal Air


text:
Belgrade Arena

The Belgrade Arena (Београдска арена) is a multi-purpose indoor arena located in Belgrade, Serbia. It is designed as a universal hall for sports, cultural events and other programs. The venue is used for several different sports events, such as basketball, futsal, handball, judo, table tennis, tennis, volleyball, water polo, as well as for concerts. The arena's capacity stands at 18,386. Also there is small hall with underground tuminel for warming while the total floor area stands at 48,000 sqm. Belgrade Arena was a member of the European Arenas Association (EAA).

Location and influence
The Belgrade Arena is situated in New Belgrade. Arena's parking is limited in spaces, though nearby residential areas provide enough room for vehicles.

It is a 10-minute walk from Novi Beograd railway station, which offers international train services from Austria, Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia, domestic train services (fast and regional trains) to and from Novi Sad, Subotica and Šid and urban rail services BG Voz.

It takes a 15-minute drive from Belgrade Nikola Tesla Airport to the arena. Ride from downtown Belgrade would take the same amount of time, unless in rush-hour, when it could take up to 30 minutes to get to central Novi Beograd, where the arena is located.

The construction of the arena has caused a substantial increase in prices for apartments in the surrounding area, which are mostly new. A new modern business district is scheduled to be constructed across the Belgrade Arena. Hotel IN was the first new hotel to be built near the arena however the venue is also within walking distance from Hyatt Regency Belgrade and Crowne Plaza Belgrade.

Name
During its construction, the provisory name of the arena was "Hala Limes". Yet, when the construction of the arena was finished in 2004, it was given the official name Beogradska Arena (Belgrade Arena). In February 2007, Serbian basketball coach Božidar Maljković started an initiative to name the Arena after another renowned Serbian basketball coach, Aleksandar Nikolić. Maljković presented his initiative to the city officials and the president of Serbia Boris Tadić, but the name change hasn't been accepted. Instead, in 2016, another Belgrade sports hall, Pionir Hall was renamed Aleksandar Nikolić Hall.

In June 2012, the arena officials signed a five-year agreement with Komercijalna banka to change the name to "Kombank Arena", and the name change became official in September 2012.

During UEFA Futsal Euro 2016, which has been held in February 2016, the Arena has been renamed from Kombank Arena to Belgrade Arena, for sponsorship reasons.

In October 2017, the arena was once again renamed, this time to Štark Arena, following the signing of a five-year sponsorship deal with Štark, a food manufacturing company. On 3 April 2024, the original arena name was restored.

Design and construction
In 1989, The City of Belgrade was chosen to host the Basketball World Championship of 1994. However, there was a condition for the city to build an all-new basketball arena. In the competition for the design of a new arena with seat capacity of at least 20,000, the winner was the design submitted by Belgrade architect Vlada Slavica from Energoprojekt. In 1991 a location for the project was chosen – Blok 25 in New Belgrade.

The project was carried out amid significant difficulties. For starters, the construction of such a mega structure had to meet a very tight deadline, since it was only 3 years to the World Championships. A team of 126 companies was formed to be part of the arena committee, with Energoprojekt Visokogradnja and GP Napred as main contractors. Two architects were chosen to design the arena's roof. In 1992 construction started as the arena committee formed a partnership with American company HOK, experienced in building sporting venues. However, tough times were ahead. As the disintegration of Yugoslavia started, the United Nations imposed sanctions on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and HOK stopped all co-operation with the arena committee. Even with this setback, work on the Belgrade Arena continued.

In 1993, Belgrade suffered one of its worst economic years in modern history. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia experienced record inflation rates, and as a result of the sanctions and the conflicts in Yugoslavia, Belgrade lost the right to host the 1994 Basketball World Championships. Following the formal announcement by FIBA, the arena's construction still continued for some time, though at a considerably slower pace due to the lack of material. However, sometime in 1995 the construction completely stopped.

Work on the arena re-commenced in 1998 as the city was chosen to host the 1999 World Table Tennis Championships to be held in the Belgrade Arena. By this time the roof was already taking shape towards completion, part of the façade was done and the interior was half complete. Once again, Yugoslavia lost the privilege to host the competition as the city was bombed by NATO forces the year the competition was supposed to be held. The first public event held in the Arena (which was still under construction at the time) was the final Slobodan Milošević (president of Yugoslavia at the time) 2000 presidential election campaign rally, which was held on 20 September 2000. That was the last time Milošević delivered a public speech.

Completion
After a change of government in Yugoslavia in 2000 and the lifting of all sanctions imposed on the country, the Arena, under new management, was completed in 2004 in time for the FIBA Diamond Ball tournament and Belgrade finally got the right to host The 2005 European Basketball Championship. Temporary licenses for public use expired in early 2006, following a series of sport events and concerts in 2005. Works on an automated fire prevention system and installation of elevators to meet European standards were completed by November 2006, while no events were held in the Arena in the meantime. The Belgrade Arena received its permanent public use license on 4 November 2006 and re-opened its doors as a result.

Events

The first event held in the Belgrade Arena was a Socialist Party of Serbia and Yugoslav Left final election campaign rally, held on 20 September 2000 before the 2000 Yugoslavian general election. The construction of the Arena wasn't finished at that time. The official opening came nearly four years later, on 31 July 2004, when the FIBA Diamond Ball basketball tournament was held. Since the Arena had only a temporary license, just a few events were held during the next two and a half years. The first event held after getting a permanent license was the 50 Cent concert, on 6. November 2006.

One of the biggest events to take place in the Arena was the Eurovision Song Contest 2008. In the contest's final night an audience of over 20,000 was present. Other big events held in the Arena include numerous sporting events, notably the European championships in basketball (EuroBasket 2005), volleyball (2005 Men's European Volleyball Championship), table tennis (2007 European Table Tennis Championships), and judo (2007 European Judo Championships). The Belgrade Arena was also one of the 69 venues to take part in the 2009 Summer Universiade Games, hosting the opening and closing ceremonies, as well as the basketball competition.

Arena was the host venue for the concerts of the most significant artists of Serbia and former Yugoslavia, as well as major international stars, including 50 Cent, Anastacia, Backstreet Boys, Beyoncé, Andrea Bocelli, Deep Purple, Montserrat Caballé, Nick Cave, The Chemical Brothers, Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood, Joe Cocker, Leonard Cohen, Phil Collins, The Cult, Bob Dylan, Fatboy Slim, Peter Gabriel, Guano Apes, Guns N' Roses, Hurts, Il Divo, Iron Maiden, Jean-Michel Jarre, Elton John, Tom Jones, Judas Priest, Alicia Keys, Mark Knopfler, Lenny Kravitz, Massive Attack, Nicole Scherzinger and The Pussycat Dolls, Queen + Paul Rodgers, Eros Ramazzotti, Jennifer Lopez, Rammstein, Chris Rea, RBD, Rihanna, Sade, Simple Minds, Shakira, Slash, Slayer, Slipknot, Sting, Whitesnake, Roger Waters, Zaz, ZZ Top, OneRepublic and many others. The Arena also hosted the second Green Fest music festival with performances by Franz Ferdinand, Cypress Hill and The Raveonettes, the IQ festival headlined by Marilyn Manson, and many other concerts, political rallies, product exhibitions and numerous other events.

Also, in several international competitions, the record attendance has been set at the Arena. On 2 February 2009, the 2009 Fed Cup World Group II, Serbia vs. Japan tennis match set a record for an ITF event attendance with a crowd of 15,118 spectators. On 5 March 2009, the first Partizan Belgrade basketball game at Belgrade Arena was held, a 2008–09 Euroleague Top 16 match against Greek powerhouse Panathinaikos. A crowd of 22,567, a record for the Euroleague, saw Partizan win 63–56. On 26 July 2009, the FIVB World League final between Serbia and Brazil was held in Belgrade Arena, with an attendance of 22,680, which is a record of World League. The ABA League all-time record of 22,198 spectators was set on 22 June 2023 during the Game 5 of the 2023 ABA Finals.

On 26 March 2014, Crvena Zvezda played Eurocup quarterfinal game against Ukrainian champions Budivelnyk Kiev. Zvezda won in the overtime 79–70 and this match gathered 24,232 spectators, which is a record for the Eurocup and at the time was also for any basketball game held indoors in Europe. This is also a record attendance of Belgrade Arena.

The attendance of 18,473 at the final match of the 2016 Men's European Water Polo Championship, between Serbia and Montenegro was the highest one in water polo history.

The 2018 EuroLeague Final Four was held at Štark Arena in May 2018.

title: Belgrade Arena


text:
Downside Up

Downside Up is a four-disc box set collecting B-sides and bonus material from the catalogue of Siouxsie and the Banshees. Also included (on disc four) is The Thorn EP, originally released in 1984. Most of these songs (only present on these CDs) were classics of the band's live repertoire like "Pulled to Bits", "Eve White/Eve Black", "Red Over White", "I Promise", "Something Blue", "El Día de los Muertos" and "B Side Ourselves". The box set was also released on iTunes.

Reception
The Times wrote in its review of Downside Up: "Standouts include the spiky 'Drop Dead/Celebration', the sinister 'Eve White/Eve Black' and the chopped up industrial funk of 'Tattoo'". The reviewer rated the band as one of "the most audacious and uncompromising musical adventurers of the post-punk era". Stylus rated it A saying: "It’s a wonderfully eclectic mixture of fingers-down-a-blackboard avant-punk ('Voices (on the Air)', 'Eve White/Eve Black'), Creatures-esque tribal drum-worship ('Sunless'), majestic beauty ('Something Blue', 'Shooting Sun', 'Return'), amusing experimentation ('Slap Dash Snap', '(There's a) Planet in My Kitchen'), linguistic fun ('Mittageisen', 'Il est né, le divin Enfant', 'El Día de los Muertos') and, yes, playfully 'dark' tunes ('Something Wicked (This Way Comes)', 'Are You Still Dying, Darling?')." Record Collector praised the box set for its "remarkable diversity, spontaneity and playfulness", saying that there are "No throwaway tracks". Murray Chalmers commented: "'Drop Dead/Celebration' is still a wonderful explosion of bile aimed at their absconded guitarist and drummer, while 'Slap Dash Snap' is prototype techno." He underlined the diversity of the material: "on more reflective tracks like 'Sea of Light' and 'Let Go' you feel that here is a group who could go anywhere". He stated that "By CD2 they are firing on all cylinders, a pop group thrillingly ahead of the pack, CD3 is immaculate", and considered the four tracks from The Thorn that end the box set as an "orchestrated EP of ferocious intensity". Rock Sound said: "Whilst most bands regard the B-side as an irrelevancy, a dumping ground for throwaway tracks not deemed good enough for proper release, Siouxsie and the Banshees always treated it with respect, an excuse to have fun and experiment." Neil Gardner praised "the sensual menace of 'Tattoo'". Uncut recognized Downside Up as "an exhaustive and fascinating collection from an astonishing group".

NME retrospectively wrote in 2009 : "Manna from heaven for all Siouxsie and the Banshees obsessives, Downside Up is a four-CD box set of the band's B-sides and bonus material, including the spellbinding 'Tattoo' and 'Eve White/Eve Black'."

Legacy
Tricky covered "Tattoo" as the opening number of his second solo album Nearly God (1996). The original version of "Tattoo", sounds like a pre-trip hop manifesto with a part of the genre's codes; a sweaty atmosphere, whispered voices, humming basses and sounds of fluffy drums. In 1997, Massive Attack sampled "Mittageisen" on "Superpredators" for the soundtrack of The Jackal. Acts from other genres also selected some of these B-sides. Morrissey had "Eve White/Eve Black" played during intermission on his 1997's Maladjusted Tour. Shirley Manson of Garbage stated that "Drop Dead/Celebration" was one of her favorite tracks. Jenny Lee Lindberg of Warpaint mentioned her liking for "Umbrella", a song recorded in 1985.

Track listing
All songs by Siouxsie and the Banshees except*

 * Disc one (1978–1982)
 * 1) "Voices (on the Air)" (Originally the b-side of "Hong Kong Garden")
 * 2) "20th Century Boy"* (T. Rex cover) (Originally the b-side of "The Staircase (Mystery)")
 * 3) "Pulled to Bits" (Originally the b-side of "Playground Twist")
 * 4) "Mittageisen (Metal Postcard)" (Originally the A-side of "Mittageisen")
 * 5) "Drop Dead/Celebration" (Originally the b-side of "Happy House")
 * 6) "Eve White/Eve Black" (Originally the b-side of "Christine")
 * 7) "Red Over White" (Originally the b-side of "Israel")
 * 8) "Follow the Sun" (Originally the b-side of "Spellbound")
 * 9) "Slap Dash Snap" (Originally the extra b-side of "Spellbound")
 * 10) "Supernatural Thing"* (Ben E. King cover) (Originally the b-side of "Arabian Knights")
 * 11) "Congo Conga" (Originally the extra b-side of "Arabian Knights")
 * 12) "Coal Mind" (Originally the b-side of "Fireworks")
 * 13) "We Fall" (Originally the extra b-side of "Fireworks")
 * 14) "Cannibal Roses" (Originally the b-side of "Slowdive")
 * 15) "Obsession II" (Originally the extra b-side of "Slowdive")
 * 16) "A Sleeping Rain" (Originally the extra b-side of "Melt!")
 * 17) "Il est né, le divin Enfant"* (traditional 18th century French carol) (Originally the b-side of "Melt!")

 * Disc two (1983–1987)
 * 1) "Tattoo" (Originally the b-side of "Dear Prudence")
 * 2) "(There's A) Planet in My Kitchen" (Originally the extra b-side of "Dear Prudence")
 * 3) "Let Go" (Originally the b-side of "Swimming Horses")
 * 4) "The Humming Wires" (Originally the extra b-side of "Swimming Horses")
 * 5) "I Promise" (Originally the b-side of "Dazzle")
 * 6) "Throw Them to the Lions" (Originally the extra b-side of "Dazzle")
 * 7) "An Execution" (Originally the b-side of "Cities in Dust")
 * 8) "The Quarterdrawing of the Dog" (Originally the extra b-side of"Cities in Dust")
 * 9) "Lullaby" (Originally the b-side of "Candyman")
 * 10) "Umbrella" (Originally the extra b-side of "Candyman")
 * 11) "Shooting Sun" (Originally the b-side of "This Wheel's on Fire")
 * 12) "Sleepwalking (On the High Wire)" (Originally the extra b-side of "This Wheel's on Fire")
 * 13) "She Cracked"* (The Modern Lovers cover) (Originally the extra b-side of "This Wheel's on Fire" 1987 double-pack 7-inch)
 * 14) "She's Cuckoo" (Originally the b-side of "The Passenger")
 * 15) "Something Blue" (Originally the extra b-side of "The Passenger")
 * 16) "The Whole Price of Blood" (Originally the b-side of "Song from the Edge of the World")
 * 17) "Mechanical Eyes" (Originally the extra b-side of "Song from the Edge of the World")

 * Disc three (1988–1995)
 * 1) "False Face" (Originally the b-side of "Peek-a-Boo")
 * 2) "Catwalk" (Originally the extra b-side of "Peek-a-Boo")
 * 3) "Something Wicked (This Way Comes)" (Originally the b-side of "The Killing Jar")
 * 4) "Are You Still Dying, Darling?" (Originally the extra b-side of "The Killing Jar")
 * 5) "El Día de los Muertos" (Originally the b-side of "The Last Beat of My Heart")
 * 6) "Sunless" (Originally the extra b-side of "The Last Beat of My Heart")
 * 7) "Staring Back" (Originally the extra b-side of "Kiss Them for Me")
 * 8) "Return" (Originally the b-side of "Kiss Them for Me")
 * 9) "Spiral Twist" (Originally the b-side of "Shadowtime")
 * 10) "Sea of Light" (Originally the extra b-side of "Shadowtime")
 * 11) "I Could Be Again" (Originally the b-side of "Face to Face")
 * 12) "Hothead" (Originally the extra b-side of "Face to Face")
 * 13) "B Side Ourselves" (Originally the b-side of "O Baby")
 * 14) "Swimming Horses" (KROQ Acoustic Christmas, 1991) (Originally the extra b-side of "O Baby")
 * 15) "All Tomorrow's Parties"* (Velvet Underground cover) (KROQ Acoustic Christmas, 1991) (Originally the extra b-side of "O Baby")
 * 16) "Hang Me High" (Originally the b-side of "Stargazer")
 * 17) "Black Sun" (Originally the extra b-side of "Stargazer")

 * Disc Four The Thorn EP (1984)
 * 1) "Overground" (Originally from The Thorn)
 * 2) "Voices (on the Air)" (Originally from The Thorn)
 * 3) "Placebo Effect" (Originally from The Thorn)
 * 4) "Red Over White" (Originally from The Thorn)

Three songs were slightly re-edited for the purpose of the box set. "False Face" has a longer introduction with the first singing line repeated. The first seconds of "Hang Me High" were edited out and "Black Sun" has a remodeled end.

title: Downside Up


text:
Raintown (album)

Raintown is the debut album by Scottish pop rock band Deacon Blue. The album, written largely by lead singer Ricky Ross, was released in the United Kingdom on 26 May 1987. It proved a commercial success and has to date sold around a million copies, peaking in the UK Albums Chart at no. 14 and remaining in the charts for a year and a half.

The album, widely praised as Deacon Blue's finest work, has the overtones of a concept album relating to the struggles of urban life in the inner city. The city being unmistakably Glasgow, referenced by the roots of the band and by the images by photographer Oscar Marzaroli on the cover of the album: the view of a rainy day over Glasgow's West End (with the Finnieston Crane featuring prominently). The rear cover shows a long-exposure shot of the M8 motorway carving through Glasgow city centre (taken from Charing Cross), with the Mitchell Library and Elmbank Gardens on either side.

Background
The short intro, "Born in a Storm", melodic and interspersed with an unmistakably gloomy atmosphere created by the name, launches into the title track "Raintown", a natural extension of this plot. The weather remains a feature of the atmosphere of the album, reflecting the epitome of the Scots word dreich. Played out in the course of the album is the struggle with money ("Loaded"), unemployment, dreams of something better ("Dignity", "The Very Thing"), culminating in an angry attack upon urban life ("Town to Be Blamed"). The album does feature lighter experiences though, with the love songs ("Chocolate Girl") and "Love's Great Fears" - a track that Ross has often cited as his all-time favourite, featuring a slide guitar outro by Chris Rea.

In an interview given to the Daily Record in 2012, songwriter Ricky Ross explained the rationale and reasoning behind the writing of all of the songs on the album.

Legacy
On 27 February 2006, Raintown was reissued as part of Columbia's Legacy Edition series. The re-issue was expanded to 2 CDs. The first CD featured the original 11-track album. The second CD featured alternate cuts of all 11 album tracks, as well as the two original CD bonus tracks "Riches" and "Kings of the Western World".

The new edition did not include the varied bonus cuts (remixes and b-sides) that were found on the singles from the album.

Another reissue was released on 22 October 2012 by Edsel Records as part of a catalogue reissue program for the band's first five studio albums. This set contained all of the B-sides and remixes associated with the album, as well as also including the Legacy Edition bonus disc.

Reception
Spin called it, "a listener's delight, yet a reviewer's frustration — no easy comparisons, no simple descriptions, no trendy affiliations, because few other acts make such surprisingly timeless, sophisticated, and genuinely emotional pop music these days."

Track listing
All songs written by Ricky Ross, except where noted:

Original 1987 album

 * 1) "Born in a Storm"– 1:33
 * 2) "Raintown" – 3:50
 * 3) "Ragman" – 3:08
 * 4) "He Looks Like Spencer Tracy Now" – 3:50
 * 5) "Loaded" (James Prime, Ricky Ross, Graeme Kelling) – 4:29
 * 6) "When Will You (Make My Telephone Ring)" – 5:05
 * 7) "Chocolate Girl" – 3:18
 * 8) "Dignity" – 4:00
 * 9) "The Very Thing" – 3:34
 * 10) "Love's Great Fears" (Ricky Ross, James Prime) – 3:42
 * 11) "Town to Be Blamed" (Ricky Ross, James Prime) – 5:19

CD Bonus Tracks (UK Release)

 * 1) "Riches" – 2:39
 * 2) "Kings of the Western World" – 2:39

Legacy Edition Bonus CD [2006]

 * 1) "Born in a Storm (Live From The Glasgow School of Art, 04.07.87)" – 1:14
 * 2) "Raintown [Live at the Marquee '86]" – 3:49
 * 3) "Ragman [Demo Version]" – 3:13
 * 4) "He Looks Like Spencer Tracy Now [Live at the Marquee '86]" – 4:50
 * 5) "Loaded [Demo Version]" (Prime, Ross, Kelling) – 4:11
 * 6) "When Will You (Make My Telephone Ring) [Air Studio Vocal Mix]" – 5:03
 * 7) "Chocolate Girl [Live at the Marquee '86]" – 3:28
 * 8) "Dignity [Live at the Marquee '86]" – 4:27
 * 9) "The Very Thing [BBC Session for Radio 1's Mark Goodier Show]" – 3:05
 * 10) "Love's Great Fears [Live at the Marquee '86]" (Ross, Prime) – 4:01
 * 11) "Town to Be Blamed (Live From The Glasgow School of Art, 04.07.87)" (Ross, Prime) – 3:35
 * 12) "Riches" – 2:39
 * 13) "Kings of the Western World" – 2:39

Deacon Blue

 * Ricky Ross – lead vocals (additional guitar, piano & keyboard on bonus tracks on reissue version)
 * Lorraine McIntosh – backing & harmony vocals
 * Graeme Kelling – guitar, low voice
 * James Prime – keyboards, backing vocals
 * Ewen Vernal – bass guitar, backing vocals
 * Dougie Vipond – drums, percussion

Additional musicians

 * Chris Rea - slide guitar on "Love's Great Fears"
 * B.J. Cole - pedal steel guitar on "Chocolate Girl"
 * Jimmy Helms, George Chandler, Jimmy Chambers (Londonbeat) - backing vocals on "When Will You (Make My Telephone Ring)"

title: Raintown (album)


text:
Leyti N'Diaye

Leyti N'Diaye (born August 19, 1985 in Dakar) is a Senegalese footballer, who has played for Olympique de Marseille.

Career
A defender, he joined Olympique de Marseille in 2004 but never managed to get much playing time. He was loaned to Créteil in January 2006 for six months, then loaned again to RC Strasbourg for the 2006–07 season. On 21 July 2009 AC Ajaccio have officially signed N'Diaye on loan from Olympique de Marseille, the defender has spent the last season at Stade Reims.

Playing career

 * 2003–04 : Louhans-Cuiseaux (14 matches)
 * 2004–06 : Marseille (3 matches)
 * 2006 : Créteil (9 matches)
 * 2007–2013 : Marseille (3 matches)

Honours
Marseille
 * Trophée des Champions: 2010

title: Leyti N'Diaye


text:
Peter West

Peter Anthony West (12 August 1920 – 2 September 2003) was a BBC presenter and sports commentator best known for his work on the corporation's cricket, tennis and rugby coverage as well as occasionally commentating on hockey. Throughout his television career he remained freelance.

Early life
West was born in Cranbrook, Kent, an only child. His father, the son of a tobacconist, had made some money in the City after the First World War, and in 1924 set himself up as a poultry farmer in Cranbrook.

Education
He was educated at Cranbrook School as were his fellow commentators Barry Davies and Brian Moore.

At school he was in the cricket XI for five years, and captain for the last three. He played rugby and hockey for the school for four years, captaining both games for his last two seasons, and, in rugby, leading an undefeated side. He ended his Cranbrook career as head of the school.

War service
After school he went to the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and was commissioned into the Duke of Wellington's (West Riding) Regiment, 33rd of Foot, which had the reputation of being the best rugby regiment in the Army. At Sandhurst he became an instructor but after being diagnosed with spondylitis was invalided out of the Army in 1944.

Career
Facing a post war world with no qualifications, West secured a job as assistant to the Controller of SSAFA, a retired Air Vice-Marshal but was sacked after a run-in with his boss. By 1947 he was stuck in a dead-end job transmitting sports results via telegraph ticker tape. However, one day, when sitting next to the legendary test cricketer and journalist C B Fry in the press box at Taunton he was able to transmit Fry’s report after the telephonist failed to turn up. Fry recommended West to the head of the BBC outside broadcasting and West was signed up as a cricket commentator. He remained a cricket commentator, both on radio and television, until 1986. In addition, from 1955 to 1982 he played second fiddle to Dan Maskell in the BBC's television coverage of Wimbledon.

He reported the Olympics from 1948 to 1972, missing only 1952 and 1956.

West was the editor of Playfair Cricket Annual from its inception in 1948 until 1954. He joined the BBC in 1947 on the recommendation of C.B. Fry, following a chance meeting. He worked for the BBC for nearly 40 years until retiring in 1986.

He presented many BBC programmes not connected with sport, including the original version of Come Dancing (1957–72), What's My Line?, and Get Ahead (1958–62), about business entrepreneurs. He was a cricket and rugby correspondent for both The Times and The Daily Telegraph.

During interviews with sportsmen, West was in the habit of using words that were unfamiliar to his interlocutors. On one occasion, speaking to Viv Richards, he said "Viv, your genius transcends parochialism." In 1984, after Jimmy White had won the Masters, he asked White to comment upon the "wonderful ethos which had permeated the final". When White said he was glad he won, West continued to press him about the ethos. Eventually, Terry Griffiths, White's opponent, stepped in and rescued him. When interviewing Arthur Ashe after his famously deft victory over the belligerent Jimmy Connors in the Wimbledon final of 1975, he congratulated Ashe on "manifesting a superb tactical acumen". "If you say so Peter!" rejoined a bemused Ashe.

Personal life
He married Pauline Pike in 1946, the woman he met in his first job, the one-time secretary to the irascible SSAFA Air Vice Marshal. They lived in Cheltenham and had a daughter, Jacqueline, and two sons, Simon and Stephen.

He died, aged 83, in Bath, Somerset.

title: Peter West


text:
Francesco Pio Tamburrino

Francesco Pio Tamburrino (born 6 January 1939 in Oppido Lucano) was the Roman Catholic Archbishop of the Archdiocese of Foggia-Bovino from 2003 to 2014. He was Vice President of the Episcopal Conference of Puglia, Italy.

He moved with his family as a child in Cesano Maderno, and at 11 he entered the Benedictine Abbey of Praglia, where he attended the gymnasium. He attended High School in Parma, Italy, and then the two years of philosophy at the Abbey of Pia. He graduated in Theology from the Pontifical Athenaeum of St Anselm in Rome. On 11 October 1955 he made monastic profession in the Order of St. Benedict. On 29 August 1965 he was ordained a priest of the Order of St. Benedict and 29 on November 1989 he was appointed Abbot of the Territorial Abbey of Montevergine.

On 14 February 1998, he was appointed Bishop of the Diocese of Teggiano-Policastro. He was consecrated on 25 March 1998, by Cardinal Michele Giordano, Archbishop of Naples, assisted principally by Archbishops Gerardo Pierro and Serafino Sprovieri.

On 27 April 1999 he was assigned to the Roman Curia as secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

His final appointment, on August 2, 2003 was as Metropolitan Archbishop of Foggia – Bovino (Italy), a post from which he retired on October 11, 2014.

Service

 * Abbot of the Territorial Abbey of Montevergine (Italy) (November 29, 1989 – February 14, 1998)
 * Bishop of Teggiano–Policastro (Italy) (February 14, 1998 – April 27, 1999)
 * Secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (April 27, 1999 – August 2, 2003)
 * Metropolitan Archbishop of Foggia – Bovino (Italy) (August 2, 2003 – October 11, 2014)

title: Francesco Pio Tamburrino


text:
Paul Kenny

Sir Paul Stephen Kenny (born 31 October 1949) is a British former trade union leader. He served as General Secretary of the GMB, Britain's third biggest union.

Early life
Kenny left school at 15 and went to work for Fuller, Smith & Turner's Brewery. He went to Latimer Foundation School in Hammersmith, which was closed; he was transferred to St Marks School at Bishops Park in Fulham. His first job in local government was for London Borough of Hammersmith as the park keeper of Brook Green, along with its tennis courts.

Trade unions
Kenny became a full-time GMB official in December 1979. In 1991 he became the Regional Secretary of the GMB London Region.

GMB leadership
Kenny had been defeated by Kevin Curran in the 2003 GMB General Secretary Election to replace John Edmonds. However, he was appointed Acting General Secretary on 24 March 2005 following Curran's resignation after alleged election rigging.

In May 2006 he was elected unopposed as GMB General Secretary. He was elected again in 2010 for a further five years unopposed.

Between 2010 and 2016, he was the chair of the influential Trade Union & Labour Party Liaison Organisation.

Campaigns
Kenny has been heavily involved in campaigns, including ASDA, private equity companies (such as their ownership of the AA), public sector pay increases, and privatised utility companies. He led target campaigning against blacklisting of trade unionists by the construction industry. In August 2014, Kenny was one of 200 public figures who were signatories to a letter to The Guardian opposing Scottish independence in the run-up to September's referendum on that issue.

Personal life
Kenny now lives on the Isle of Wight. He married Patricia Ward in 1969 in Hammersmith. He has two sons and four grandchildren, and supports Fulham F.C.

In the 2015 Queen's Birthday Honours, Kenny was appointed a Knight Bachelor "for services to trades unions".

Audio clips

 * Discussing public sector pay on the BBC in August 2008

News items

 * MPs' pay in December 2006

title: Paul Kenny


text:
Turku Central Station

Turku Central Station (Turun päärautatieasema, Åbo centralstation) is a railway station in the VII District of Turku, Finland. It has VR services to Helsinki and towards Joensuu (most terminate in Tampere or Pieksämäki). The station serves approximately a million passengers annually.

The railway station was opened in 1876, together with the newly built railway between Turku and Tampere, in a celebration attended by the future Tsar Alexander III of Russia. Services were at first only to Tampere and Toijala, and the significance of railways was rather minor. In 1899, a new railway to Helsinki was opened, and subsequently rail traffic to and from Turku became more frequent.

The older station was demolished in 1938, and a new, more modern, one was built in its place. The current building, completed in 1940, was designed by Finnish architects Väinö Vähäkallio and Martti Välikangas.

In addition to the two main railway lines to Helsinki and Joensuu, the station has handled passenger traffic to Naantali and Uusikaupunki. These local lines have been discontinued due to lack of use, but are still used by goods traffic. In addition, there is talk of re-establishing the line to Naantali in the near future, either as a museum railway line or a form of local public transport.

Unlike the Helsinki Central railway station, which stands out as a prominent landmark of downtown Helsinki, the Turku Central railway station blends in among the scenery and is hidden behind other buildings when viewed from the city centre. Because of this, it can be difficult for non-Turkuans to get their bearings around the railway station.

On 7 June 2010, the Turku Central railway station was officially renamed Turun päärautatieasema-Åbo centralstation (Turku main railway station, or Turku central railway station) in Finnish and Swedish, replacing the previous official name Turun rautatieasema-Åbo järnvägsstation (Turku railway station). The Finnish transport bureau use "Turku C" as a shorthand, and there were erroneous news reports that this shorthand would also be taken into official use. The Helsinki Central railway station was renamed in a similar manner.

History
The construction of the Finnish Main Line in 1862 meant a setback for Turku, which had originally been a place of trade for Tavastians. After the construction of the railway, the Tavastian merchants travelling along the traditional Hämeen Härkätie road started travelling to Helsinki. When the railway from Hämeenlinna to the north was being planned, Turku's significance was further threatened. So it was important for Turku citizens to receive a railway connection from Tampere to Turku as well as to Helsinki, even so that the trip to Turku would be shorter than the one to Helsinki. The railway was constructed in a way that favoured Turku, as the exchange station was built in Toijala, making the trip from Tampere to Turku 19 kilometres shorter than that from Tampere to Helsinki. Construction of the railway started in Turku already in 1874, when the direction of the railway at its northern end was not yet completely clear. There were many Russian immigrant workers working at the railway, and they were paid less than the Finnish workers.

The Turku railway station was opened as the terminus of the Toijala-Turku line in 1876, and it was a class II station similar to the Toijala and Tampere railway station opened at the same time. As well as the station building, an oil warehouse made of brick and a railway roundhouse with four places were built at the site. The roundhouse was later expanded to eight places. A machinery yard was placed next to the railway yard, used to service and repair locomotives and passenger carriages. The track was extended from Turku Central Station to the Turku Harbour in 1876, when the terminus of the track was located between the Turku Castle and the river Aura.

The Turku Central Station became a crossing station as the railway from Turku to Karis was completed in 1899. After the entire Rantarata track had been completed in 1903, the shortest trip from Turku to Helsinki went via Karis, but the trip via Toijala was still the fastest, as the Rantarata track was originally meant for commuter traffic. The decision to build the Uusikaupunki track was made already in 1909, but uncertain times hindered its construction and so traffic to Naantali was only possible in 1923 and to Uusikaupunki in 1924. A side track to the Pansio oil harbour was built from the start of the Uusikaupunki track in the early 1930s.

Already at the start of the railway construction, the Turku railway yard became a border to the traffic northwards from the city. The Raunistula suburban area had formed to the north of the railway in the municipality of Maaria, with highway connections to Pori and Tampere. Already in the early 20th century there were plans to replace the highway level crossings with a bridge, but because of the soft soil the bridge, which required difficult planning and construction work, was only built in the eastern end of the railway yard in 1931.

After World War II, there were plans to extend the railway southwards from Turku to the Pargas limestone mines, but nothing ever became of them.

The historic centre of the city of Turku was located on the southern side of the Aura River around the Turku Cathedral. After the Great Fire of Turku in 1827 the city was expanded, and as ships grew in size the harbour piers were moved to the current Linnansatama area. Building the railway station on the northern edge of the city was a solution suitable for the Toijala track, although the station was located far away from the old city centre. As time passed, the commercial centre of Turku shifted to the northern side of the river. As tram traffic in Turku started in 1908, the circular line connected the Turku Cathedral, the Market Square and the railway station with each other, and this connection remained all the way until trams in Turku were discontinued in 1972.

For a long time, Turku was an important traffic hub for commuter traffic, as trains went from the Turku Central Station towards Paimio, Loimaa, Naantali and Uusikaupunki. Commuter train traffic to Naantali was discontinued in 1972 and to Paimio in 1979; ship train connections to Naantali remained in operation from 1970 to 1984 and from 1989 to 1990. The Dm9 trains used in Turku commuter traffic, nicknamed "Carrots", were discontinued in the early 1990s. Commuter train traffic to Loimaa continued with locomotive-driven trains until 1990 and to Uusikaupunki until the end of the year 1992.

Ticket sales
Ticket sales at the Turku Central Station were stopped in 2020. Since then, the station has only had an automatic ticket sales machine.

Traffic
The Turku Central Station has passenger train connections along the Rantarata line to east towards Helsinki as well as to the north via Toijala towards Tampere and Oulu. Trains from Tampere and Helsinki also carry passengers to the Port of Turku at ship departure times. All trains to Helsinki are InterCity or Pendolino trains. The trains to Tampere are InterCity trains and travel less frequently than the trains to Helsinki.

The Turku Central Station also has a railway connection to Uusikaupunki, but this railway has not served passenger traffic since 1992, although there are plans to return this service, with investigations made from 2005 to 2007. According to a February 2008 report this will not be accomplished in the near future, because it is difficult to make it pay off its cost. Development of the Rantarata line is seen as more important.

Tracks
The Turku Central Station has seven tracks.
 * Track 1 has no platform. It only has a ramp for loading cars onto car transport carriages. There is also a ramp on track 2.
 * Tracks 2 to 6 have been dismantled in 2022 because of reparations at the Turku railway yard.
 * Track 7 is used for long-distance trains to Tampere.

Old station building
The old station building in Turku, located at the site of the current station building, was inaugurated in 1876. Trains departed from the station at first to Toijala and the Port of Turku, and later to Karis and Helsinki. The two-floor station building was designed by architect Pehr Erik Degenaer. The bottom floor hosted waiting halls for three different classes, the ladies' room, ticket sales and baggage handling, the station office, the office of the station master, the telegraph office, the mail office, storage for baggage and a room for travelling officials. The top floor hosted apartments. The old station building was dismantled to make way for the new one in 1938.

Current station building
The current station building was designed by architects Martti Välikangas and Väinö Vähäkallio, and it was completed in 1940. The building was constructed exceptionally by the Finnish Building Administration instead of the Finnish Railway Administration.

The bottom floor of the station hosted ticket sales, a waiting hall, baggage storage, a café and a mail office. The mail office moved away from the station in 1987. The top floor originally hosted the station restaurant. One side of the floor had a restaurant for the first class, while the other had a restaurant for the common class. The restaurant remained in the premises until 2004.

The original facade of the building was made of yellow tiles. The facade was changed from 1978 to 1979, giving the building a yellow brick facade.

Current state
The Turku Central Station was renovated from 2005 to 2006. The largest change was to the ticket office, which was moved to the wing of the building.

The Finnish Heritage Agency has designated the Turku Railway Station and its environment as one of the culturally significant environments in Finland. The Logomo cultural centre was opened at the old VR Group machinery building next to the railway station in January 2011.

The distance from the Turku Central Station to the Turku bus station is about 700 metres. There have been plans to combine the stations into a transport hub, and an investigation report was published in 2006. So far the project has remained at the planning stage.

Turku transport location
The Turku transport location (abbreviated Tur) has been in use since 5 June 2005, consisting of the following parts:
 * Kupittaa railway station (Kut, passenger transport)
 * Turku Central Station (Tku, passenger transport)
 * Turku cargo station (Tkut, cargo transport)
 * Port of Turku station (Tus, passenger transport)
 * Turku Viheriäinen (Vie, cargo transport)

title: Turku Central Station


text:
Talk:Three-wheeler

Merge proposal
I disagree. It seems to me that a tricycle is a special case of three-wheeler. It would be absurd to have an article on tricycles discussing Bubble cars and Reliant Robins. —Theo (Talk) 19:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I disagree too.Ditto, and in addition I am working an article on Goliath. Hektor 20:20, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree, the article could do with expanding, but it doesn't fit in Tricycle. I have removed the tag accordingly.  Kcordina 15:43, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

 * 3wheeled ATVs and 3wheeled cars deserve two completely separate categories. 74.227.46.228 04:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Ahem ... about some more merge
Merge, this time, with Three_wheeled_cars. The contents are quite complementary. I'll let anyone tell which title is better.

I should say that some content from the tricycle article should partially be merged too. What do you think ?

The domain could also be clearly organized with articles like -
 * ==Category:Tricycle vehicules
 * Old machines
 * Tricycle
 * Motorized three-wheeled
 * - car looking
 * - - company 1
 * - - company 2 ...
 * - motorcycle looking
 * Three-wheeled competitions
 * Three-wheeled physics and safety
 * Three-wheeled physics and safety

-- DLL .. T 21:42, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

 * The home constructed VW motorbike hybrids are clearly motorcycles rather than cars, so I think the article needs to be split in two parts. However the discussions on geometry and stability are the same for cars, microcars and trikes, and there is already duplication. So combine and expand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.218.42.62 (talk • contribs) 11:03, 17 October 2006

Three-wheeled vehicles
How about this:

 * Move this article, giving it the title "Three-wheeled vehicles".
 * Merge Three wheeled car into this article, since cars are vehicles but vehicles are not necessarily cars (the Daihatsu mini-pickups in the thumbnail come to mind).
 * Add a "see also" or a top-link disambiguation to the Tricycle article, especially as it relates to the children's toy.
 * Have a "See also" list including Microcar, Bubble car, Messerschmitt KR200, Morgan Motor Company, and whatever other relevant articles come to mind.

Reasonable idea?

Respectfully, SamBlob 22:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Reverse Trike
A Three Wheel Car and a Reverse Trike as I like to call them are completely different monsters. I think more should be elaborated on the physics and handling characteristics of each that way readers have a better picture then "It’s just a backwards three wheeler"

http://reversetrike.com/home.html

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.132.10.73 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 9 April 2007

Merge, again
A merge was apparently originally proposed here in 2006. I recently re-tagged tilting three-wheeler and three-wheeled car to be merged here. de-tagged the former and then undid a subsequent redirect, leaving a note here on the old merge discussion which I've now moved below:

"* Oppose This is no better an idea for a merge today than it was back in 2005 Andy Dingley (talk) 16:00, 27 January 2012 (UTC)"

The thing is, I've already done the work. Tilting three-wheeler is now redundant to the material contained at three-wheeler. Unless there is some disagreement to how that work has been done (personally I think I've done an adequate job of the merge), the redirect should be put back in place. If, at some later point, the tilting aspect requires an article to be spun back out again then so be it, but for the time being there is too little referenced material to truly warrant a separate article for this aspect of the subject.

Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Oppose "But I've already written it" and "Think of the wasted effort" is no more a policy here than it is when you seek to delete others' articles. Nor does this change just because you're an admin and you've previously threatened to block the same editor who disagrees with you. We work by consensus here, and hopefully by aiming towards the best structure for the resulting articles.
 * Three-wheelers are obviously a huge topic, and current en:WP coverage is way inadequate. Tilting three-wheelers are themselves a large topic, or even more than one, and there is no question of their notability. Merging the content that is appropriate for tilting into the main article would be a problem for WP:UNDUE. Even if the coverage of each is currently far less than it ought to be, we should move in the direction that builds useful articles (and tilting three-wheeler is already a reasonable stand-alone), rather than assuming that our current poor three wheeler article is as big as it's ever going to get. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:34, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

 * I don't know what you seek to accomplish by throwing in unrelated ad hominem attacks on me. I don't bring up your virulently anti-mergist stance every time these debates come up, for instance, though it's certainly heading for a user conduct RFC in the long run. I can see why having already completed the merge may result in accusations of fait accompli here, but in the end these articles simply aren't improving at any rate as standalone articles: multiple editors over a five-year period have sought to reduce the burden of maintaining these overlapping articles (and thus move the impetus from copying material from one article to another to actually writing new content to flesh out our coverage of the subject) to be met with non-reasons such as "these are important" which don't do anything to address the practical concerns. As it is now, the matter stands: three-wheeler has improved by having material imported into it, and tilting three-wheeler is presently simply a clone of the relevant section here with additional bits of unreferenced trivia thrown in. Redirecting loses us no important detail and ensures that for the time being efforts to improve our coverage of that matter is not split between two overlapping pages. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:58, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Oppose - This whole topic; Tricycles, Three-wheelers, Electric trikes, etc.; is sort of a mess, but tilting is a sufficiently important feature to merit its own article. -AndrewDressel (talk) 14:28, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Motorbike with sidecar
So you mention all the configurations,  cars with only three wheels,   motorbikes with a extra wheel at the back,  a bunch of comments that actual seem only to be relevant for recumbent (un-powered ) bicycles. What about a motorbike with a sidecar ? That used to be a very common form of three-wheeled motorised vehicle.Eregli bob (talk) 00:12, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * See Sidecar, sidecar "outfits" are primarily "add-on's" to a motorcycle and not original equipment or "as manufactured". There are exceptions, such as the WW 2 BMW R75 and the Zündapp KS750 outfits, both of which have driven rear and sidecar wheels. But, both of those are both military only motorcycles.--TGC55 (talk) 10:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Isetta, not a true three wheeler
Isetta looks like a three wheeler, but has four wheels (two aft wheels in a closed position). Plxdesi

 * As far as its dynamics though, it's still a three wheeler. We might explain this, but should still include it. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:19, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The four-wheel Isettas had a solid rear axle, but the UK factory also made a few three-wheelers. As far as I know the three wheel version was entirely confined to cars built for the UK market and is a bit of an obscure quirk given Isetta's international distribution. I think for the sake of clarity the Isetta isn't a great example and doesn't really belong here. Mighty Antar (talk) 13:35, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the UK true three wheelers might even have been the majority of them - UK car tax and licensing encouraged three wheelers. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:46, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It might have been the majority of UK production - I don't think anyone knows for sure, but it was still a relatively small proportion. Sources vary, but total production of Isettas worldwide (not including UK) was somewhere between 130-140,000. Total UK production was about 30,000 cars in both 3 & 4 wheel versions. Mighty Antar (talk) 18:26, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Lateral 'instability'?
I see this stated all the time, but where is there a reference in any literature that shows this to be true? In fact it is blatantly false if the vehicle is properly designed. There is only one research paper that addresses lateral stability for three wheel vehicles and it is based, not on supposition, but on actual testing. It was published in 1981. In it the researchers did an exhaustive literature search of over a million documents trying to find any references to stability issues and testing that would confirm this statement. They found none. The research report can be found under the following title: Evaluation of Electric and Hybrid 3-Wheeled Vehicles for Handling and Stability DOT HS-806092; September 1981, authors Paul G, Van Valkenburgh, Klein, R., Szostak, H.; Contract No. DOT HS-9-02309. Volume 1 is the Executive Summary and Volume 2 is the Research Report. It is not available online. It has to be purchased in a print format. The research report is more than 130 pages. Quoting from the Executive Summary Conclusions, "There are small differences between 3- and 4-wheelers. The original question leading to this research was: “Is there any performance difference between 3-wheel and 4-wheel cars?” Within the limits of the capabilities of the vehicles tested, few differences were found that could not be explained by factors other than the number of wheels. For example, if we look at the vehicle factors that affect handling, stability, and braking, we can see that there are only a few that are functions of the difference between three and four wheels. This research shows that traditional state-of-the-art vehicle dynamics knowledge applies to 3-wheelers also. The handling characteristics are still primarily a function of suspension geometry, weight distribution, steering and suspension compliance, tire properties, etc. The only obvious exception is that anti-roll bars are of lesser significance because the front/rear roll rate distribution is not a variable." "Single rear wheel configurations understeer...Single front wheel configurations oversteer. ..Oversteer is difficult to control. ..Overturn is easily avoided. While for a given track width and center of gravity location a 3-wheeler will overturn more easily than a 4-wheeler, these variables are easily modified so that a 3-wheeler is superior. In fact, one 3-wheeler tested had a better overturn safety margin than most 4-wheelers,...Based on the research done to date we believe that it is possible to build a 3-wheeled car with essentially the same handling and overturn characteristics as any given 4-wheeled car."Johpav (talk) 07:29, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * A good example of just how stable the three wheel platform can be might be Spirit of America (automobile) Mighty Antar (talk) 22:43, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Example possibly, but not a proof. The stability, or otherwise, of LSR cars is dominated by their aerodynamics. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Is this necessary?
"Diagram showing an initial velocity vector for three vehicles and the corresponding angular displacement from the initial wheel positions required to change the direction of the initial velocity vector by the same value when turning using various three-wheeled car steering mechanism configurations"

This is a joke, right? This is meant to be funny? God, I hope so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Murray (talk • contribs) 11:01, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

"Which way you must turn the wheel in order to steer in the direction you want the car to go" is my educated guess. The diagram might be useful if anybody could understand what the text means! Walshie79 (talk) 02:22, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Merge in Tilting-stuff
I suggest to merge Tilting three-wheeler into this article. I removed the previous merge tag a few months ago simply because the discussion was old, I hadn't looked very thoroughly into the article then.

There are at least one reliable source listed at the bottom of the article i think, does anyone have that on hand? The link only points to a summary.

If not, and if no other sources can be found, I would guess that it's kindof difficult to fix the huge problems the Tilting three-wheeler article has. I can't see any other way of fixing it other than just removing everything, leaving us with very little, and that can be in this article.

Atlesn (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

 * Oppose There are a squillion three wheelers out there. A tiny number are tilting. Yet the tilting three wheeler is a significant technical development that warrants a detailed and technical explanation way WP:UNDUE for a simple overall article on three wheelers. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:05, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

 * The work for all this was done nearly three years ago; all that's needed is to redirect. The above argument against is specious for precisely the reason that this article already exists in its entirety in the parent article, which kiboshes the idea that a merge would lead to undue weight there. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 17:25, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

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Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - FA22 - Sect 201 - Thu
— Assignment last updated by Lbw119 (talk) 10:58, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Three-wheeler


text:
Erran Baron Cohen

Erran Boaz Baron Cohen (born May 1968) is an English composer and trumpet player known for collaborations with his younger brother, Sacha Baron Cohen.

Career
Baron Cohen is a founding member of the world music group Zohar who are signed to Miles Copeland's Ark 21 label. He also scored the original music for his brother's films Borat, Brüno, The Dictator, and Grimsby, as well as his TV series Da Ali G Show and Who Is America?.

After scoring the Borat movie, Baron Cohen was asked by the Turan Alem Kazakhstan Philharmonic Orchestra to compose a classical piece containing Kazakh influences.

Baron Cohen currently sings and plays keyboards and trumpet for the pop band Ridiculous together with Jon Moss and bassist Peter Noone.

Filmography

 * Borat (2006) – Music
 * Brüno (2009) – Music
 * The Infidel (2010) – Music
 * The Dictator (2012) – Music
 * Just Before I Go (2014) – Music
 * The Contract (2015) – Music
 * Grimsby (2016) – Music
 * The Bromley Boys (2019) – Music
 * Borat Subsequent Moviefilm (2020) – Music

title: Erran Baron Cohen


text:
Talk:Avans University of Applied Sciences

Avans Hogeschool is not a university!!!
Although the Avans Hogeschool is a school of higher professional education, it isn't a university!!! So, the title is utterly wrong! In the Netherlands it is a Hogeschool, somewhat comparable with the former polytechnics in the UK. Please, change the title to Avans Hogeschool! Thank you.

This school is not a university according to the Dutch law, but an HBO (professional high school), so I removed the category link. The requirement of the category with the Dutch universities is: ''There are two kinds of institutions of higher education in The Netherlands: universities (universiteiten) and schools for professional education (HBO's or hogescholen). This category contains a list of the universities.''--145.107.0.131 14:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

=== NB: Word "retarded." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.194.235 (talk) 14:59, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia entry about a school, not an online advertisement for student life in the cities of Noord-Brabant!
Please revise the section about the school campuses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.170.126.6 (talk) 22:47, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

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Talk:761st Tank Battalion (United States)

Cleanup
I'm glad this article was recently added. However, it needs some serious cleanup for flow, links, etc. I am going to start working on it. Beanbatch 19:36, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

In general, this is not the right article to document the entire history and issues of racial bigotry in the Army. The quotes did prove the point, but belong better in article such as Desegregation or African American history. Perhaps a general article on African American Soldiers should be started. There is History of African Americans in the Civil War, but we should cover more recent wars. The coverage of Jackie Robinson's story really shows this the best, I think. Beanbatch 21:48, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Found another good link African-Americans in the United States military before desegregation, will add a link there. Beanbatch 20:19, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you Bean, WikiDon 20:27, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Took out all superscripts for 761st. Really hard to read with these, the line spacing gets wacky. Beanbatch 21:48, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Howdy,

 * 1) Thanks for spending some time with one of my babies.

 * 2) If I notice someone has spent as much time on an article as I have on this one, I ask first before making major changes.

 * 3) Unless you plan on, and even if you do, I don't like the changes to the section on the other battalions, I want to mention them here as well:
 * 758th Tank Battalion
 * 784th Tank Battalion

 * 4) I also want the Patton info in. It is important to put in what a senior leader of his stature had to say about colored men.

 * 5) The article and the references were "meant" to be in chronological order.

 * 6) If they entered combat October of 1944, and Patton made the observation in November, which was not prior to combat.

Please discuss. WikiDon 22:09, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

2) My apologies. It appeared to me that the article was fairly new, and had some seemingly randomly ordered and repetitive  insertions recently. My main goal here was to try an organize the info / flow better.  We can get back whatever we need to restore from the article's history list.  It is NOT lost. 3) Since this article is titled U.S. 761st Tank Battalion, it should really focus on the 761st, but we can refer to them. I put them under "See also". Hopefully, someone will add articles for them down the road. However, I did restore some of the deleted content about one of the units. 4) I wanted to leave in the 2nd Patton speech, about "..I don't care what color you are..". However there were several problems with the section as it was: These inconsistencies led me to not trust the context of the quote at all, so I removed it.  It looked to me more like a pre-combat pep talk than something post-combat.  However, I have attempted to restore Patton section, with the before and after quotes.  Tell me what you think.  It would be really good to have a date for the first quote, so the reader can tell when Patton was thinking that way.  Can you get a date for it? 5) I liked the preWWII and postWWII sections. However, Jackie's section, which was a preWWII item, was not in there. Now it is, etc. I moved the new book to the top of the reference list, because this book and the movie are hot items. No big deal to me if you want to move it back. 6) Addressed above. They entered France via Omaha Beach in October, per the article, but did not see combat until 7 November, per the article. Did you like anything about the rework?  Did not mean to offend anyone.   Beanbatch 19:41, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * He didn’t feel the same after Bastogne: the date on the quote was 02 November 1944, Bastogne was later, starting Dec 16th.
 * after watching the 761st conduct them selves in the field: this is inconsistent with the earlier combat date given, On 07 November 1944, with Patton, they entered into action.

Unit activated
We need some explantion in the first section on how this unit was formed, with so much bais in the military. Who pushed for it? Why did happen? Beanbatch 21:43, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

WikiDon 22:11, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I believe that Lieutenant General Leslie J. McNair pushed hard for the unit. He started pushing at the beginning of the war, 1941, but it took him a long time to get them to combat. Oh, but you took that part OUT!

I saw that, but could not see the context. Will put back. Beanbatch 20:15, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

A couple of things
--Jpbrenna 05:23, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Ruben Rivers - if you have a good source, this guy should have his own article like Freddie Stowers. Not only did he earn The Medal, dying for his country in the process, but his family had to wait fifty years to get it.  That's pretty notable! (It is also several other things, but this is a family encyclopedia, so I won't mention them).
 * Dramatizations: W.E.B. Griffin changes the names to protect innocent, but he does mention the contributions of black tankers in North Africa and Europe; in fact they play a prominent role in several of his novels. He has a recurring character, Capt. Phillip Sheridan Parker II (eventually rises to major) and his son, Phillip Sheridan Parker III.  Grandfather Sgt. Moses Parker was a Buffalo soldier, and named the first Phillip Sheridan Parker after the famous general, under whom he served.  Griffin bases a lot of his characters loosely on actual persons, so this could even reflect the careers of actual soldiers. I'll add some info about that when I get a chance.
 * So I recently finished an entry for Ruben Rivers. Let me know what you think.Ken Albers 21:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Patton
I changed the Patton section as I felt it was misleading. The speech made to the battalion seems to simply reflect his desire to instill confidence in men on whom he knew his plans would in part rely on. The structure implied a Patton was a racist/changed his mind notion which was not at all the case. The quote about black soldiers lacking the intellect to be tankers was a reflection following the was (as noted). In fact the distinguished actions of the 761st did nothing to diffuse his racsim. I hope the current revision reflects this.

Ken Albers 20:00, 3 November 2005 (UTC)Kalbers

Fort Hood, Texas
Important to note that permanent monument was dedicated this year at Fort Hood, Texas. In attendance were several living legends from The 761st Tank Battalion. There are additional details that have been summarized and included. Invitation is extended for interested military historians to visit the monument. It serves as reminder of the very high cost of unheralded service. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.38.189.2 (talk • contribs) 06:51, 29 November 2005.

If possible, a picture of the monument would be nice. --Trifler (talk) 02:44, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

761st TB Insignia
Sorry, but since the 761st Tank Battalion was NOT one of the Tank Battalions that were carved out of Armored Regiments during World War II, and it was not reorganized from an older unit of another branch, it did not get issued a Distinctive Unit Insignia, and only a small handful of Battalions have Shoulder Sleeve Insignia. I went looking for the graphic file you posted, and did not find it still on the server, which tells me that it has been removed by the Server Police. SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 01:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

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Candidates for related articles.
This article has a section on racial tension due to the US policy of segregation, which ended during this unit's existence. I have made some edits to another article which touches on the racial tension in the US military; The Battle of Brisbane, and I'm aware of some others, about US units serving in New Zealand and the UK. Would these be decent candidates for linking in the further reading, or see also sections? I'd love to see arguments for and against.--Senor Freebie (talk) 11:19, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

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Talk:Demographics of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

Density
There are no units for the columns showing density, and the links do not take you to a place where units are explained. Mark Fitzsimmons — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.174.21.51 (talk) 16:52, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Decrease?
The decrease in some republics' populations between 1971 and 1981, is it due to actual emmigration or because some decided to start calling themselves Yugoslavs? I noticed a sharp increase in the Yugoslavs row in that decade.

--Hurricane Angel 19:37, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

It seems the fall of some nationalities is caused by the increasing number of people calling themselves Yugoslavs. This is also consistent with this document. 89.93.173.241 (talk) 16:56, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Muslims
Why is Muslim listed with the other ethnicities? Muslim isn't an ethnicity. There can be white Muslims, Black Muslims, Chinese and Indian Muslims etc.. Krawndawg (talk) 03:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It is during constitutional law of former Yugoslavia: "Muslims by nationality". They didnt have nationality or they were Sers or Croats, but have some special entity.

ethnic map
This map is a forgery to justify serbian plans for greater serbia. It is clear since many areas which were undobtedly with croatian and bosniak majority are actually shown as areas with majority of serbian population. Map should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.198.179.81 (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Errors in republics by area data
All, I noticed that the land area numbers are inconsistent. First, browsing, I noticed that the percentage of land that Serbia takes up is inconsistent, i.e. 88,361km / 250,790km = 35.2% not 33.2% as the table said previously. I wasn't sure whether the area or percent number is right, but since Serbia is also broken down into Serbia proper, Vojvodina and Kosovo, and those numbers add up to 88,361km correctly, I assumed the percent was a typographical error, and corrected it.

However, after closer inspection, it appears there are multiple numerical inconsistencies, and at this point I don't want to touch anything until the source data is located. In particular, the total area of Yugoslavia, if you add up all of the republics is shown as 250,790, but actually adds up to 255,783. Also, I noticed that Serbia at original posting was listed with area 83,361km (first table was posted by user "Explendido Rocha", see history of not this page, but the SFRY page where this info was before it was moved -- this page is the original version of the data first posted. That was also consistent with the original 33.2% percentage area, but did not equal the added sum of Serbia proper + Vojvodina + Kosovo.  It looks like someone later corrected Serbia from 83,361 to 88,361 because adding up proper+Vojvodina+Kosovo adds up to 88,361.  The 88,361 number is often cited and also consistent with data here the 1981 census summarized in this RAND report (Table 3.18).  My conclusion is that the 88 number is probably right, and that an 8 looked like a 3 in some typewriter typed copy of the source data used. This explains why the percent area is wrong for Serbia. It also explains why the total area is 250,790 -- the 83,000 area of Serbia was used in the sum it seems (roughly). So, it appears the right total area should be 255,783. Then, *all* percentages would have to be changed.

This looks logical, but is too much messing around without locating the original data. Actually, the RAND report above is consistent with what I am proposing, but it does not have the identical numbers as the table (it has fewer significant figures- just one decimal place). The numbers for Serbia proper, Kosovo, Slovenia and Macedonia are *slightly* different between the two tables. It would be good to locate the original source data used to put up this table, and cite it, before "fixing" anything further. Can anyone find this?

Regards, Milos Popovic, 13 January 2011, 16:52 UTC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.138.189.252 (talk) 16:53, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Vital statistics
I set vital statistics for Yugoslavia.Ripas1997 (talk 23:14, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You have the statistics going all the way to 2019, but the state no longer existed by then. The statistics shouldn't extend beyond the life of the state that they supposedly refer to. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:19, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

What should I do then?Where to post statistics from 1991?Ripas1997 (talk 23:22, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Nowhere, unless they refer to a recognised political entity. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:25, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Can I just delete the statistics from 1991 and set the statistics during the existence of the state?Ripas1997 (talk 23:29, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

 * That sounds like the most sensible option. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:50, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, this article has data on the 2017 population in Yugoslavia, and that data can be included in the article, and the ones I posted cannot. Why? The data I have published is significant for those who will be watching it.Ripas1997 (talk 00:07, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that data should be removed. There was no Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia for there to be demographics of in 2017. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:30, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok.I posted data from 1947 to 1991 in this article, and in the article Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia I posted data from 1919 to 1940.The statistics correspond to the period of existence of these countries and the data are not extensive. Is it OK?Ripas1997 (talk 19:31, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I've also removed the 2017 figures that you highlighted here. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:16, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks.Ripas1997 (talk 15:30, 9 May 2020 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Bill Gaither (gospel singer)

Forgot several things
We're missing an infobox and a image, so if you could, please insert it to the article. Big  top  02:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Paragraph does not seem to apply
How does this paragraph in section 4 apply to a biography of Bill Gaither?

In 1981, Michael W. Smith was signed as a writer to Meadowgreen Music, where he racked up a number of highly successful gospel hits penned for artists like Bill Gaither, Sandi Patty, Kathy Troccoli, and Amy Grant. Some of these songs can also be found in church hymnals.

Not confident in making changes and hope this is the right place to ask the question.

Eremita55 (talk) 23:23, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I agree, it doesn't go in this topic. I'd delete it.   Tanglewood4 01:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tanglewood4 (talk • contribs)

List of songs written
Can we have a list of songs he has written? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.210.112.154 (talk) 22:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:37, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Billgaither2022.png

Looking For A City
Registered Authors[1 ]: GAITHER BENJAMIN WILLIAM BMI 129954539 JENNINGS SUZANNE GAITHER ASCAP 128749544 ASCAP: LOOKING FOR A CITY ISWC: T9014745530 Work ID: 423233334 P37307 (talk) 10:21, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

The words to “Looking for a City” were written by W. Oliver Cooper, with music by Marvin P Dalton. It was copyrighted in 1943 at which time Bill Gaither was seven years old. These facts are confirmed on Hymnary.org. JEFFMORAN (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

 * @JEFFMORAN

There are several Christian songs titled Looking For a City that are unrelated to other versions. Cooper wrote one.Others did also. It is a common mantra in certain Christian denominations. You were correct to remove the song but not for the reason you did. The Looking for a City song the Gaithers are known for was actually written by Benjamin and Susanne Gaither, Bill Gaither's children, and not William J (Bill) Gaither the article is written about. They did perform and record Coopers version, also, along with many Stamps Baxter published works, including Coopers.--P37307 (talk) 01:17, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

My reason for removing it was because Mr Gaither did not write Looking for a City. Most Southern Gospel fans, especially veterans, think of Cooper’s version when they hear or read that title, so I just didn’t want his work being attributed to an undeserving party. Thanks and God bless. JEFFMORAN (talk) 02:32, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bill Gaither (gospel singer)


text:
Talk:Jeff Godwin

Untitled
Many Christains are Rock Artist, and it doesn't even have to be Christain Rock. --68.90.234.113 16:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Evidently Profound
I made a change from this:

"The change was evidently profound, as his first book, The Devil's Disciples (1985) was published the following year."

To this:

"His first book, The Devil's Disciples (1985) was published the following year. His story of rock-n-roll debauchery and subsequent conversion brought him to the attention of fundamentalist comic publisher Jack Chick. Chick Publications continues to distribute Godwin's books to this day, even though many have not been updated since the 1980s when they were originally written. The cartoon covers are also drawn very much in Chick's style."

It's not the editor's place to purport that the change was "evidently profound". The veracity of his conversion is to be thought out independently by the reader.

June 30, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.6.164.52 (talk • contribs)

Critical of rock music
I changed the line saying he was "especially" critical of Christian rock. It now reads: "He is best known for his numerous books critical of both secular rock music and Christian rock music." He's extremely critical of both, but more critical of secular rock. He believes secular rock artists are nearly always in explicit allegiance to Satan, but would be more prone to believe Christian rock artists are simply being duped by Satan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.6.164.52 (talk • contribs)

Sour grapes of wrath?
I have read The Devil's Disciples and What's Wrong With Christian Rock?. Both contain numerous factual inaccuracies (such as a claim that "The Beatles' song 'Revolution 9' was recorded in Abbey Road Studio number nine" (they only had three studios at the time, and still don't have nine of them), and a general sour-grapes attitude toward popular music; my personal guess is that Godwin couldn't make it in the music business (or the Gospel music business after he got religion), and decided to go on the attack. He repeatedly claims in Devil's Disciples "I sold my guitars and amplifiers" to distance himself after his conversion; if they were used for such Satanic purposes, why didn't he burn those engines of the Devil? Did he sell them to people in church, or to other "pawns"? Did the proceeds go in the collection plate, or in his own pocket? One has to wonder.

Godwin also claims that The Rocky Horror Picture Show is a recruitment tool of Satan's, and that the punk-rock lifestyle is a training ground for zombie soldiers of the Last Days, teaching them to ignore pain and accept disfigurement, etc. as they do the Devil's work. (With both having long fallen from wide popularity, and their fans having gone on to day jobs, families, etc., without the grace of being "saved" or converted away from those things... what went wrong? Did the Dark One jump on the boy-band wagon in the Nineties?)

I had to laugh at much of Godwin's approach: He warns his readers in Devil's Disciples about the "dangers" of investigating backwards-masking in rock records (summoning evil spirits, risking demonic possession, etc.)... then on the very next page shows his readers techniques for just such investigation. (Is he hoping to get someone possessed or troubled, so he or another Fundamentalist can rescue them?) The book has several such examples of logical inconsistency, but I don't have it handy. - Godwin's works may anger some people, and give others a treasure-trove of mirth, but I find them largely a waste of time, for both readers and the author. Zephyrad (talk) 19:28, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jeff Godwin


text:
Talk:Bob Griese

No Picture
This Biography is in need of a Picture of Bob Griese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Furrface (talk • contribs) 01:25, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bob Griese