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Peter Porter (poet)

Peter Neville Frederick Porter OAM (16 February 1929 – 23 April 2010) was a British-based Australian poet.

Life
Porter was born in Brisbane, Australia, in 1929. His mother, Marion, died of a burst gall-bladder in 1938. He was educated at the Anglican Church Grammar School (then known as the Church of England Grammar School) and left school at eighteen to work as a trainee journalist at The Courier-Mail. However, he only lasted a year with the paper before he was dismissed. He emigrated to England in 1951. On the boat he met the future novelist Jill Neville. Porter was portrayed in Neville's first book, The Fall Girl (1966). After two suicide attempts, he returned to Brisbane. Ten months later he was back in England. In 1955 he began attending meetings of "The Group". It was his association with "The Group" that allowed him to publish his first collection in 1961.

He married Jannice Henry, a nurse from Marlow, Buckinghamshire, in 1961 and they had two daughters (born in 1962 and 1965). During this period he worked in advertising, and was beginning to find work in the literary press. Jannice committed suicide in 1974, greatly affecting Porter's work, in particular The Cost of Seriousness. In 1991 Porter married Christine Berg, a child psychologist.

In 2001, he was named Poet in Residence at the Royal Albert Hall. In 2004 he was a candidate for the position of Professor of Poetry at Oxford University. In 2007, he was made a Royal Society of Literature Companion of Literature, an honour bestowed on a maximum of ten living writers. Porter died on 23 April 2010, aged 81, after suffering from liver cancer for a year. After news of Porter's death in 2010, the Australian Book Review (ABR) announced that, in his honour, it would rename its ABR Poetry Prize as the Peter Porter Poetry Prize. He was buried on the eastern side of Highgate Cemetery.

Work
His poems first appeared in the Summer 1958 and October 1959 issues of Delta. The publication of his poem Metamorphosis in The Times Literary Supplement in January 1960 brought his work to a wider audience. His first collection Once Bitten Twice Bitten was published by Scorpion Press in 1961. Influences on his work include W. H. Auden, John Ashbery and Wallace Stevens. . He went through distinct poetic stages, from the epigrams and satires of his early works Once Bitten Twice Bitten, to the elegiac mode of his later ones; The Cost of Seriousness and English Subtitles. In a recorded conversation with his friend Clive James he stated that the"glory of present-day English writing in America, in Australia and in Britain, is what is left over of the old regular metrical pattern and how that can be adapted to the new sense that the main element, the main fixture of poetry is no longer the foot (you know, the iambus or the trochee) but the cadence. It seems that what is very important is to get the best of the old authority, the best of the old discipline along with the best of the new freedom of expression."

In 1983 Porter was a judge in the Booker–McConnell Prize.

Awards

 * 1983: Duff Cooper Memorial Prize for his first Collected Poems
 * 1988: Whitbread Poetry Award for Automatic Oracle
 * 1990: Australian Literature Society Gold Medal for Possible Worlds
 * 1997: Age Book of the Year Poetry Prize Co-winner for Dragons in their Pleasant Palaces
 * 1998: The First King's Lynn Award for Merit in Poetry
 * 2000: Philip Hodgins Memorial Medal at the Mildura Writer's Festival
 * 2002: Forward Poetry Prize for Max Is Missing
 * 2002: Queen's Gold Medal for Poetry
 * 2004: Medal of the Order of Australia
 * 2004: Honorary Fellow of the English Association, UK
 * 2007: Royal Society of Literature Companion of Literature
 * 2009: Honorary Doctorate, Nottingham Trent University
 * 2009: Age Book of the Year Poetry Prize for Better Than God

Poetry collections

 * Once Bitten Twice Bitten, Scorpion Press, 1961
 * Poems Ancient and Modern, Scorpion Press, 1964
 * A Porter Folio, Scorpion Press, 1969
 * The Last of England, Oxford University Press, 1970
 * After Martial, Oxford University Press, 1972
 * Preaching to the Converted, Oxford University Press, 1972
 * Jonah, with Arthur Boyd, Secker & Warburg, 1973
 * Living in a Calm Country, Oxford University Press, 1975
 * The Lady and the Unicorn, with Arthur Boyd, Secker & Warburg, 1975
 * The Cost of Seriousness, Oxford University Press, 1978
 * English Subtitles, Oxford University Press, 1981
 * Fast Forward, Oxford University Press, 1984
 * Narcissus with Arthur Boyd, London: Seckers & Warburg, 1984
 * The Automatic Oracle, Oxford University Press, 1987
 * Mars, with Arthur Boyd, Deutsch, 1987
 * Possible Worlds, Oxford University Press, 1989
 * The Chair of Babel, Oxford University Press, 1992
 * Millennial Fables, Oxford University Press, 1994
 * Dragons in Their Pleasant Palaces, Oxford University Press, 1997
 * Both Ends Against the Middle, 1999, as a section in Collected Poems Volume 2
 * Max Is Missing, Picador/Macmillan, 2001
 * Afterburner, Picador/Macmillan, 2004
 * Better Than God, Picador, 2009
 * Chorale at the Crossing, Pan Macmillan, 2016 (Posthumous)

Selected and collected poetry

 * Collected Poems, Oxford University Press, 1983.
 * A Porter Selected: Poems 1959–1989. Oxford University Press, 1989.
 * Collected Poems. 2 vols.  Oxford & Melbourne:  Oxford University Press, 1999.

Poetry

 * Solemn Adultery at Breakfast Creek The Keepsake Press, London, 1968 (200 copies)
 * A Share of the Market Ulsterman Publications, Belfast, 1973.
 * The Animal Programme: Four Poems Anvil Press Poetry Ltd, London, 1982 (250 copies). ISBN 0-85646-107-5.
 * Machines with illustrations by George Szirtes, Mandeville, Hitchin, Hertfordshire, 1986 (250 copies). ISBN 0-904533-92-1.
 * A King's Lynn Suite, King's Lynn Poetry Festival, 1999.
 * Return to Kerguelen, Vagabond Press, London, 2001.

Essays

 * Browning's Important Parleying: Stylistics across two centuries Leo S. Olschki Editore, Firenze, 1991.

Broadsheets

 * Words Without Music, Sycamore Press, 1968.
 * Epigrams by Martial, Poem-of-the-Month Club, 1971.

Translations

 * After Martial Oxford University Press, 1972.
 * from the Greek Anthology in Penguin Classics edition
 * Michelangelo, Life, Letters, and Poetry, with George Bull Oxford University Press, 1987.
 * Liu Hongbin, A Day Within Days, with the author. Ambit Books, London 2006. (Link to a reading of Porter's translation)

Essay collections

 * Saving from the Wreck: Essays on Poetry. Trent, 2001.

Books edited

 * A Choice of Pope's Verse, Faber and Faber, 1971.
 * New Poems, 1971–1972: A P. E. N. Anthology of Contemporary Poetry, Hutchinson, 1972.
 * The English Poets: From Chaucer to Edward Thomas, with Anthony Thwaite, Secker & Warburg, 1974.
 * New Poetry I, with Charles Osborne, Arts Council of Great Britain, 1975.
 * Thomas Hardy, selected, with photographs by John Hedgecoe, Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1981.
 * The Faber Book of Modern Verse 4th edition, originally edited by Michael Roberts, Faber and Faber, 1982.
 * William Blake, selected, Oxford University Press, 1986
 * Christina Rossetti, selected, Oxford University Press, 1986
 * William Shakespeare, with an introduction, C. N. Potter, 1987, Aurum, 1988.
 * Complete Poems, by Martin Bell, Bloodaxe, 1988.
 * John Donne, edited, Aurum, 1988.
 * The Fate of Vultures: New Poetry of Africa, with Kofi Anyidoho, and Musaemura Zimunya. Heinemann International, 1989.
 * Lord Byron, Aurum, 1989
 * W. B. Yeats: The Last Romantic, Aurum, 1990.
 * Percy Bysshe Shelley, selected, Aurum, 1991.
 * Elizabeth Barrett Browning, selected, Aurum, 1992.
 * Robert Burns, selected, Aurum, 1992.
 * The Romantic Poets: Byron, Keats, Shelley, Wordsworth, selected, Aurum, 1992.
 * Robert Browning, selected, Aurum, 1993.
 * Samuel Taylor Coleridge, selected, Aurum, 1994.
 * The Oxford Book of Modern Australian Verse, Oxford University Press, 1996.
 * Selected Poems of Lawrence Durrell, Faber and Faber, 2006.

Scores and libretti

 * Annotations of Auschwitz, with music by David Lumsdaine, Universal Edition, 1975.
 * Orpheus: A Chamber Opera in One Act, music by Geoffrey Burgon, Chester Music, 1985.
 * The Voice of Love, words for a song cycle, music by Nicholas Maw.
 * St Francis and the Wolf, an opera for children, music by Ronald Senator

In other media

 * In 1981, Scottish post-punk band Scars recorded a song of Porter's poem "Your Attention Please" on their studio album Author! Author!.

title: Peter Porter (poet)


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User talk:Chriswaterguy

Welcome! Leave a new message, or add a comment in the relevant place.

I check here every couple of days or weeks. If you need a very quick response, leave a note at Appropedia:User talk:Chriswaterguy.

/Archive/

Invitation to subscribe to the edit filter mailing list
Hi, as a user in the edit filter manager user group we wanted to let you know about the new wikipedia-en-editfilters mailing list. As part of our recent efforts to improve the use of edit filters on the English Wikipedia it has been established as a venue for internal discussion by edit filter managers regarding private filters (those only viewable by administrators and edit filter managers) and also as a means by which non-admins can ask questions about hidden filters that wouldn't be appropriate to discuss on-wiki. As an edit filter manager we encourage you to subscribe; the more users we have in the mailing list the more useful it will be to the community. If you subscribe we will send a short email to you through Wikipedia to confirm your subscription, but let us know if you'd prefer another method of verification. I'd also like to take the opportunity to invite you to contribute to the proposed guideline for edit filter use at WP:Edit filter/Draft and the associated talk page. Thank you! Sam Walton (talk) and  MusikAnimal  talk  18:22, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Seneca quotation
I don't know if you saw my response to your query on the Seneca Talk Page:

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Seneca_the_Younger#Anger_quote

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

 * Oh, cool, thanks ! --Chriswaterguy talk 04:41, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

EFM to EFH conversion
Hello Chriswaterguy, I was doing some routine access cleanups and saw you had an old flag (edit filter manager) for filter viewing, this was replaced with a new flag (edit filter helper) a few years ago and we must have overlooked you. You may have received an echo notification for this change, nothing to worry about!. If you no longer need private filter viewing access, feel free to drop me a note and I'll remove it. Best regards, — xaosflux  Talk 01:22, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

I see you edit International Development articles
I just wanted to let you know that there is a draft article on Axel van Trotsenburg, current Managing Director of Operations of the World Bank. Since I see you have contributed to International Development articles, I think this might be of interest to you. Can you please take a look at it? Thanks!! Draft:Axel van Trotsenburg Mtaslan39 (talk) 12:11, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

CfD nomination at
A category or categories you have created have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at  on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Qwerfjkl talk  09:31, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Indic Script consensus
Please kindly read my discussion under User_talk:Javierfv1212 and User_talk:Symphing12 and maybe let's begin anew a talk about consesus on using Indic Scripts, because I think those contained in Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics/Archive_48 (re:lead)] and Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics/Archive_64 (re:infobox) are dated. noychoH (talk) 21:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

January 2024
Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. Regarding your edits to Violet CoCo, please use the preview button before you save your edit; this helps you find any errors you have made and prevents clogging up recent changes and the page history, as well as helping prevent edit conflicts. Below the edit box is a Show preview button. Pressing this will show you what the page will look like without actually saving it.

It is strongly recommended that you use this before saving. If you have any questions, contact the help desk for assistance. Thank you.  -  Sumanuil  '''. ''' (talk to me) 06:35, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

 * I am familiar with the preview button, and used it in this case as I have been doing for 19 years. The edits were as intended.
 * There were a lot of different edits, made with care, with explanatory edit comments in each case. You rolled them back entirely without an edit comment.
 * There appears to be a misunderstanding, and I have no idea what your intentions and misapprehensions were. Please note Help:Edit summary (consensus policy) in future. Chriswaterguy talk 12:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

 * Just be more careful and double-check next time. You were "fixing" file names and references.  -  Sumanuil  .  (talk to me) 19:59, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Chriswaterguy


text:
Alain Manesson Mallet

Alain Manesson Mallet (1630–1706) was a French cartographer and engineer. He started his career as a soldier in the army of Louis XIV, became a Sergeant-Major in the artillery and an Inspector of Fortifications. He also served under the King of Portugal, before returning to France, and his appointment to the court of Louis XIV. His military engineering and mathematical background led to his position teaching mathematics at court.

His major publications were Description de L'Univers (1683) in 5 volumes, and Les Travaux de Mars ou l'Art de la Guerre (1684) in 3 volumes.

His Description de L'Universe contains a wide variety of information, including star maps, maps of the ancient and modern world, and a synopsis of the customs, religion and government of the many nations included in his text. It has been suggested that his background as a teacher led to his being concerned with entertaining his readers. This concern manifested itself in the charming harbour scenes and rural landscapes that he included beneath his description of astronomical concepts and diagrams. Mallet himself drew most of the figures that were engraved for this book.

Images
Treatises on line: http://architectura.cesr.univ-tours.fr/Traite/Auteur/Manesson_Mallet.asp?param=en

title: Alain Manesson Mallet


text:
Miss You (Rolling Stones song)

"Miss You" is a song by the English rock band the Rolling Stones, released on Rolling Stones Records in May 1978. It was released as the first single one month in advance of their album Some Girls. "Miss You" was written by Mick Jagger and Keith Richards.

It peaked at number one on the Billboard Hot 100 and number three on the UK Singles Chart. An extended version, called the "Special Disco Version", was released as the band's first dance remix on a 12-inch single.

In 2010, Rolling Stone magazine rated "Miss You" number 498 in its list of The 500 Greatest Songs of All Time, dropping down two spots from number 496 in the 2004 version.

Inspiration and recording
"Miss You" was written by Mick Jagger jamming with keyboardist Billy Preston during rehearsals for the March 1977 El Mocambo club gigs, recordings from which appeared on side three of the double live album Love You Live (1977). Keith Richards is credited as co-writer, as was the case for all Rolling Stones originals written by either partner or in tandem.

Jagger and Ronnie Wood insist that "Miss You" wasn't conceived as a disco song, while Richards said, "'Miss You' was a damn good disco record; it was calculated to be one." In any case, what was going on in discotheques did make it to the recording. Charlie Watts said, "A lot of those songs like 'Miss You' on 'Some Girls'... were heavily influenced by going to the discos. You can hear it in a lot of those four-to-the-floor and the Philadelphia-style drumming."

For the bass part, Bill Wyman started from Preston's bass guitar on the song demo. Chris Kimsey, who engineered the recording, said Wyman went "to quite a few clubs before he got that bass line sorted out", which Kimsey said "made that song". Wyman recalled: "When I did the riff for 'Miss You' – which made the song, and every band in the world copied it for the next year: Rod Stewart, all of them – it still said Jagger/Richard. When I wrote the riff for 'Jumpin' Jack Flash', it became Jagger/Richard, and that's the way it was. It just became part and parcel of the way the band functioned."

Unlike most of Some Girls, "Miss You" features several studio musicians. In addition to Sugar Blue who, according to Wood, was found by Jagger busking on the streets of Paris, Ian McLagan plays understated Wurlitzer electric piano, and Mel Collins provides the tenor saxophone solo for the instrumental break.

The 12-inch single version of the song runs over eight minutes and features additional instrumentation and solos, particularly on guitar. It was remixed by Bob Clearmountain, then an up-and-coming mixer and engineer. This song, the first edit the Stones did for a 12-inch single, also contains tape repeats and an additional set of lyrics in the second verse, after the line "Hey, let's go mess and fool around you know, like we used to". The extended version can be found on The Singles 1971–2006, on the "Don't Stop" CD single and in edited form on the album Rarities 1971–2003 and on the 1990 CD single version of "Angie". The single version is available on Jump Back: The Best of The Rolling Stones, Forty Licks and GRRR!.

Release and legacy
"Miss You" became the Rolling Stones' eighth and final number-one single in the United States on its initial release in 1978. It hit the top on 5 August 1978, ending the seven-week reign of "Shadow Dancing" by Andy Gibb. It also reached number three in the United Kingdom. The song was originally nine minutes long but was edited to almost five minutes for the album version and three-and-a-half minutes for the radio single. To properly edit the radio single without audible bumps and glitches, a separate mix was constructed and then edited for continuity. Cash Box said that a "strong, driving, funky backbeat" is suitable for dancing and that "Keith [Richards] provides a wrangling guitar line." Record World said that it was "a rather hushed soul-rocker that is one of their best records in some time" and praised Jagger's vocals.

The B-side of the single was another album track, "Far Away Eyes", a tongue-in-cheek country tune sung by Jagger in a pronounced drawl.

A live recording was captured during the Rolling Stones' 1989-1990 Steel Wheels/Urban Jungle Tour and released on the 1991 live album Flashpoint. Other live versions have been recorded and filmed, including a November 1981 performance included on Let's Spend the Night Together (1983), July 1995 performances released on Totally Stripped (2016), a July 2013 performance on Hyde Park Live, and a March 2016 performance included as a bonus track on Havana Moon.

In 2010, Rolling Stone magazine rated "Miss You" number 498 in its list of The 500 Greatest Songs of All Time, dropping down two spots from number 496 in the 2004 version.

2002 Dr. Dre remix
In 2002, music producer Dr. Dre released a remix of the track. It was featured in the 2002 film Austin Powers in Goldmember.

Personnel
Personnel per Some Girls CD credits.

 * The Rolling Stones
 * Mick Jagger – lead and backing vocals, electric guitar
 * Keith Richards – electric guitar, backing vocals
 * Ronnie Wood – electric guitar, backing vocals
 * Bill Wyman – bass guitar
 * Charlie Watts – drums

 * Additional personnel
 * Ian McLagan – Wurlitzer electronic piano
 * Mel Collins – tenor saxophone
 * Sugar Blue – harmonica

title: Miss You (Rolling Stones song)


text:
Veronica chamaedrys

Veronica chamaedrys, the germander speedwell, bird's-eye speedwell, or cat's eyes, is a herbaceous perennial species of flowering plant in the plantain family Plantaginaceae.

Description
Veronica chamaedrys can grow to 20 cm tall, but is frequently shorter, with stems that are hairy only along two opposite sides. The leaves are in opposite pairs, triangular and crenate, sessile or with short petioles. The flowers are deep blue with a zygomorphic (bilaterally symmetrical) four-lobed corolla, 8-12 mm wide. The capsules are wider than they are long.

The blossoms of this plant wilt very quickly upon picking, which has given it the ironic name "Männertreu", or "men's faithfulness" in German.

Veronica chamaedrys is a common, hardy turf so-called weed when it invades turf and lawns. It creeps along the ground, spreading by sending down roots at the stem nodes. It is propagated both by seed and stem fragments. Leaves may defoliate in the summer and winter but the stems will grow again next season. Unlike at least five other common speedwell species, such as corn speedwell (Veronica arvensis), the leaves are opposite on both the upper and lower parts of the plant. See Veronica for special weed control considerations.

The specific name chamaedrys is a combining form meaning "low" or "on the ground" derived from ancient Greek.

Distribution
This species is native to Europe. It is found on other continents as an introduced species.

Uses
Veronica chamaedrys has been used in traditional Austrian herbal medicine internally (as tea) for disorders of the nervous system, respiratory tract, cardiovascular system, and metabolism. In 18th century Britain, the plant had the reputation of being a cure for gout as well as being popular for making tea, the latter being so prevalent that the plant was nearly eradicated from London during the 18th century.

title: Veronica chamaedrys


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Satire Bubble

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was REDIRECT to Alternative comedy. The nominator intimates that a redirect may be possible although does not support one; thus the outright result would be a no-consensus keep, but given the support and intimation for a redirect, I will do so. -Splash 01:47, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Satire Bubble
Real phenomenon, but it's generally described as - and an inextricable component of - Alternative comedy. A google search returns one (1) result which isn't a Wikipedia mirror, and it seems to be used there as a cheap pun. -Ashley Pomeroy 12:30, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect DV8 2XL 12:52, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Nothing there that isn't already covered sufficiently in Alternative comedy. Redirect. Proto t c 14:06, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete SaltyPig 15:48, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


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Peter Debnam

Peter John Debnam (born 21 April 1954), is an Australian former politician. He was a member of the New South Wales Legislative Assembly representing Vaucluse between 1994 and 2011. Debnam is a former Leader of the New South Wales Liberal Party, Leader of the Opposition and Shadow Minister for Western Sydney, Redfern/Waterloo and Citizenship. He also held the shadow portfolios of Infrastructure and Energy.

Early life and career
Debnam's early years of schooling were at Frenchs Forest Public School and The Forest High School. Debnam was educated at the Royal Australian Naval College, where he graduated in 1974. He served in the Royal Australian Navy from 1972 to 1980. During his Naval career, Debnam served on many ships including the aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne (R21), destroyer escort HMAS Torrens (DE 53), destroyers HMAS Vampire (D11) and HMAS Anzac (D59) and patrol boats HMAS Attack (P 90) and HMAS Barricade (P 98). After leaving the navy, Debnam studied at the Macquarie Graduate School of Management, where he gained an MBA. He held positions at Dalgety Farmers Limited, Hawker de Havilland and Australian Aircraft Consortium before entering politics.

Political career
In 1994, Debnam was elected to the New South Wales Legislative Assembly, winning a by-election for the safe Liberal seat of Vaucluse. The following year the Liberal government was defeated by Labor under Bob Carr. Between 1997 and 2005 Debnam was successively Shadow Minister for Housing and for Planning and Urban Affairs, Shadow Treasurer, Shadow Minister for Transport, Shadow Minister for Police and Shadow Minister for Transport Services.

Following John Brogden's sudden resignation as Liberal Leader in August 2005, the Deputy Leader, Barry O'Farrell, was initially the favourite to become leader, but Debnam steadily gained ground as he lobbied Liberal MPs, and on 31 August O'Farrell withdrew from the contest.

Allegations against Attorney-General
On 16 November 2006, Debnam suggested under Parliamentary Privilege that NSW Attorney-General Bob Debus was under investigation by the Police Integrity Commission. In response, the Government released a police report stating that a minister had been the subject of complaints (not an investigation), and that they were dismissed in 2003 as spurious and groundless. The report did not name the minister concerned as it was, deemed to be 'not in the public interest'. When Mr Debnam declined to provide evidence to support his claims, he was censured by Parliament for misleading the House.

It was subsequently reported that Debnam's source for the accusation was a convicted child sex offender and bank robber with a history of making unsubstantiated allegations. Opinion poll support for the Opposition leader declined markedly in the wake of the allegations, which also distracted attention from a campaign against the Government over the sacking of Ministers Milton Orkopoulos and Carl Scully.

2007 election
Peter Debnam led the Liberal/National coalition to defeat in the 2007 state election. The Coalition gained a total of four seats from Labor and independents—too few to significantly reduce Labor's majority. Following the election, his deputy, O'Farrell, announced he would challenge Debnam for the Liberal leadership. When it was apparent that Debnam did not have enough support to keep his post, he withdrew from the contest on 2 April 2007, effectively handing the leadership to O'Farrell. On 11 April 2007 O'Farrell appointed Debnam as opposition infrastructure and energy spokesman. He resigned in May 2008 because of his party's decision to support the Labor Government's plan to privatise the electricity system.

He retired from Parliament prior to the 2011 state election.

title: Peter Debnam


text:
Talk:Petrus Ramus

Ramism
The Swedish wikipedia article for Petrus Ramus clearly divides his biography from ramism, the school of thought he was the namesake of. This article mixes the two, and has no separate article for ramism. Wouldn't a clearer division be preferable? Unfortunately I know no more about ramism than I've read in the wikipedia, so I'm probably not the best person to do this. Lijil 09:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Date of death
According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy link quoted, Ramus was killed not on the first but on the third day of the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre, making it at least the 26th August. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.138.189.76 (talk) 02:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

Self-referencing See also loop
In the See Also section is a link to Ramism. It redirects to this page.

Role of Dialectique in Anglo-Saxon cultural history
De la Ramée's protestant dialectics became part of the 17th century English school curriculum with the publication of Butler's The Logic of Ramus.

 * See Ramism for more on this. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality
Is lacking in the article. Ong's views should not be the only source. Fortunately there is a great deal now written about Ramism. As it says above, there might be a case for splitting that topic out. But first the article should be cleaned up. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

 * I have now created Ramism with about 20% of what was here, as a more suitable place to discuss what happened into the 17th century. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Which Cardinal of Lorraine?
I assumed John, Cardinal of Lorraine from date. A source says Charles, Cardinal of Lorraine, very young at the time (but not impossible given his rapid church promotion. Not resolved. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Leibniz and Ramism
I read on the latest academic biography of Leibniz, and I saw there that he was very much into Ramist educational philosophy, and used it extensively to guide his studies. Since Leibniz is incredibly notable, it would be interesting if some able Wikipedician (a specialist in Wikipedianism) could add that into there! Thanks! 187.64.234.98 (talk) 05:13, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Petrus Ramus


text:
Talk:Extras (TV series)

Two Christmas special synopsis
Why are there two synopsis for the Christmas specials? The second is more concise, but whoever wrote it used British slang/dialect that may make it to difficult to understand outside of that region. Granted, it is a British show.. Hadiz (talk) 11:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Moving Episode Summaries
The Episode summaries should be moved to a seperate page as with other television shows - see List of The Simpsons Episodes, List of Seinfeld Episodes etc.

Episode summaries
I have rewritten all the episode summarys (apart from #6) since they were all copyrighted material from the bbc website. I have done my best to include all the information in the bbc summary and to add anything i can remember. johnSLADE (talk) 12:31, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Just dropping by to say, in the Kate Winslet episode, it says Kate and Andy were caught making lewd gestures. Kate was not caught making lewd gestures. She was making gestures behind the boyfriend's back, to Maggie, asking Maggie about the phone call. One of the gestures she has her hand up to her ear like a telephone. So they are not lewd gestures, only gestures asking what happened with the phone call. And I don't think Andy was making any gestures. Please edit that. 208.102.182.222 (talk) 04:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Ye olde tradition
I have a problem with this statement: Article QUOTE " The series is filmed in a more traditional sitcom style than the mockumentary style used by Gervais and Merchant's previous award winning series." Is a single camera show with no laugh track, film-within-a-show, or shows where camera equipment and crew members are visible considered "traditional"?

Yes, more traditional than the office at any rate.

Episode Order
Ok, on the DVD release Ross Kemp is in the first Episode and the Ben Stiller is in the second, have I missed something? Or are the episodes listed in broadcast order? Thanks. Help plz 09:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The BBC swapped them around, I have added a couple of points to explain this, note that the Christmas repeats were in the correct order, Gervais has expressed his dismay with how the BBC changed the order, but the DVD and repeat orders (and foriegn sales) have fixed this. The Ben Stiller episode, to all intents and purposes, is the second episode.

 * It seems more natural that the Kate Winslet episode be considered the first one, because in that episode Maggie says that she and her boyfriend (the props guy) have been together for three weeks. In the other episodes, her boyfriends come and go within the episode. I suppose if you assume that three weeks or more passes between episodes, then the Kate Winslet episode could come third. --Mathew5000 08:28, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Barry from Eastenders
Barry from Eastenders needs to be added to the cast list summary thing... if Merchant is there, then he needs to be. They are both in it the same amount. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.70.173.156 (talk • contribs) 2006-09-14

Infobox
1. Should Stephen Merchant really be credited as 'Starring' in the show? He is not in the 'main characters' section.

2. Country of origin. Shouldn't this just be UK? If I am wildly misguided, maybe this should be explained in more detail in the article.

3. The number of episodes broadcast remains at 7, while the 1st two series will include more than 12 episodes. Where has this number '12' come from? --anskas 21:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I will now make these changes. Sorry if people haven't had time to comment yet. --anskas 22:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you havin a laugh? Is he havin a laugh? 131.104.253.228 20:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I have removed the part which states the original channel for extras was HBO. There is no HBO channel in the United Kingdom, therefore the original channel must be within the United Kingdom. I believe that it was also broadcast in the UK before the USA also.
 * I also think that Stephen Merchant is a main character, he apperas in each episode of the second series, and numerous episodes in the first. This amounts to more than a recurring character. His presence is also necessary as the character is central to many of the plotlines. pinster2001

 * With regards to point 2, the article states that it is an HBO / BBC co-production and therefore the country of origin should be listed as UK / USA. Look at the article for Rome, which is also a co-production of the two companies.  In addition IMDB lists the Country as UK / USA.  Whether or not the show was aired first in the UK or US is irrelevant, as both companies contributed to the production.  I have updated the article as such whilst also mentioning that the 2nd series is scheduled to be broadcast from 14th January in the US. --Richc80 20:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Eh?
'Andy finds out the critical response When the Whistle Blows are almost entirely negative - bar one, which didn't review it.' This sentence makes no sense.
 * The exchange between Andy and his agent on the bad reviews was something like "the best one was in The Telegraph", "Why, what did they say?", "They didn't review it". I've edited the episode summary to make it clearer --Steve 06:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Episode Summaries
There is a bit of the breathless GCSE coursework about some of the summaries - are these supposed to be summaries or scene-by-scene discriptions? doktorb wordsdeeds 11:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * As long as they are verifiable, without original reserach, and neutral there are no further guidelines. --Steve 23:19, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move (2006)
No move. Duja 10:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Extras (TV series) → Extras — The latter redirects to the former for some odd reason. Extras is the name of the show, ergo it should be the name of the article about the show. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 19:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add  * Support   or   * Oppose   on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~.

 * Support - the redirect is illogical and I suspect the show's article is more encyclopaedic and valuable than the respective actors page anyway. -- 212.84.104.89 20:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That was me above, somehow having logged out. Given the change of redirect I now also oppose. -- Countdown Crispy  ( ? 16:14, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Extremely strong oppose – I have changed the redirect to go to Extra. Enough said. —anskas 21:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Concur with Anskas --Steve 00:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose, per above. SergeantBolt (t,c) 07:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
Add any additional comments:

Addition to list
While I didn't add him to the list in the first place, I found the article, here, that the speculation may be based upon. It is only speculation, although, I did read somewhere else that Gervais was in a film with De Niro, and was going to put outtakes from that into Extras. --Nick San 11:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * De Niro definately appears in the final episode. I don't have any citations other than I've seen the final episode for myself. -- Jawju 14:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't know about the "outtakes" comment above, but Gervais was in a film called Stardust with De Niro, which is where Gervais asked him if he'd be willing to appear in Extras. The scenes used in Extras were filmed on an adhoc set put up on the site where Stardust was being filmed. I have no source for that, I am afraid, but I was there myself that nightTimothyJacobson (talk) 03:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

As primary Guest Star
He is listed as the Primary Guest star in his episode (season 2, ep 6). He appears a lot less than say Jonathan Ross (although, obviously, is not so major a "star"). Any objections to me swapping them roundTimothyJacobson (talk) 02:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and on that subject. Have added "secondary" section for season two, esp three. TimothyJacobson (talk) 02:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Citation for 'Stolen Idea?'?
I'm not so familar with Wiki citation rules, but (from a reader point of view) it would be 'healthy' to be able to cite the details of the "in a recent interview" since I think it should be considered a controversial statement that Gervais stole the idea, and so in need of backing up. --Mortice 21:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Update, just checked citation policy: I think the statement in Wikipedia guideline Citing_sources applies that this could be considered negative to Gervais so requires citation - the guideline states "This applies whether the material is in a biography or any other article" --Mortice 23:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm going to remove the "stolen idea" section until a reliable third party citation can be provided for Greg and Ford submitting a script to the BBC AND Gervais having sighted it, or, for example, the court case where they are seeking damages. --Steve 00:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hilarious
Someone added this to the article: "It is important to note that, in real life, the above actors do not, and have not, played the characters in When the Whistle Blows. Liza Tarbuck, Keith Chegwin etc. are only playing fictional versions of themselves, who in turn are playing characters. Therefore, the quality of their "performances" in the sitcom do not necessarily reflect their real-life acting abilities." Almost good enough for BJAODN! -- FP (talk)(edits) 12:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Season vs. Series
What I normally call a "season" (I'm from the US), this page refers to as a "series". This is confusing because the page title is "Extras (TV series)". We should probably adopt something consistent. What's worse is that the term "season" is also used.
 * I saw this when I was cleaning up the article yesterday but didn't have time to think it through. From Television program, via Series: "Americans call a short run lasting less than a year a season; People of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland generally call this a series."  So the whole thing is a TV series, also with series 1 and series 2.  UK typically doesn't refer to 'Season' in the same way, although I'm an ex pat for 6 years, and with the number of US shows in the schedule that may have changed.  --Steve 22:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

 * It was advertised in the UK as series two. Does anybody know as to what it was referred in the US? Pinster2001 14:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Its British made so use British convention. Series. SenorKristobbal 11:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

 * It'll make sense if it was moved to "Extras (TV show)". And keep the article format as British as can be.  Given the show's origin. --Svippong 01:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Ratings
Does anyone know the average ratings for the program, series one and two. i am struggling to find them on the internet. I think it would be a useful thing to have on the page also.

 * I agree, I have found the average Australian ratings quoted in this article about another show 'The Chaser' which took over its timeslot. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21472400-16947,00.html

 * Has anyone been able to get hold of the UK or US figures? Jpk82 23:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

US episode order?
The Region 1 DVD release that came out today has the Kate Winslet episode as the first episode, which differs from the UK order. Can anyone confirm if this reflects HBO's broadcast order, or is it just something done for the DVD? It is NOT a case of following the production order, as Gervais says on the DVD that the Jackson episode was the first one filmed. 23skidoo 05:45, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have confirmed from my own recollection, my on demand cable service and hbo.com that the US broadcast order did have the Kate Winslet episode as the first one, and if fact with the exception of the Patrick Stewart episode all others were broadcast in a different order to the UK as well. I have updated the Episode Order section of the page with this information.  No idea why the difference though. Richc80 06:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible trivia addition.
There may be a connection between Jude Law not being available (being busy with the film "alfie"), and the actor turning down the role of "alfie" in 'when the whistle blows'. The role later being filled by Keith Chegwin, whos poor acting forces changes in the script. I'm not saying Patrick Stewart wasn't good (probably the best ep from season 1), but that may be a reflection of the writers opinion of either Patrick Stewart or Jude Law. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.31.32.173 (talk) 03:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

 * Interesting if true, is there any proof? Jpk82 23:20, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Jude Law didn't turn the part of Alfie down what are you on about? SenorKristobbal 11:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The real meaning of Extras ?
In my view this article misses the whole point about Extras, which is that it about why British television is so poor. Millman/Gervais must humiliate himself, wearing a silly wig and silly glasses, with a silly catchphrase, in order to succeed. When he complains about this, and attempts to create an entertaining show, he is told that he must accept the status quo or give up his television career.

 * Well unless you can find reviewers etc. who've asserted that then it's your opinion and OR. I don't agree - it's more about the sell out dilemma in general rather than British TV in particular. 86.140.10.80 (talk) 16:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Among the DVD features for series 1 there is an interview with Merchant & Gervais called "The Difficult Second Album" (referring to Extras as follow-up effort after The Office) where Gervais says, "It was never meant to be a satire indictment of modern-day film and TV. That was just a backdrop. Rather like the backdrop of The Office was selling paper. It was more about relationships, and so was this. This is about, you know, people's struggle and getting on and ego and desperation." El duderino (talk) 02:09, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Kimberley
The cast listing for When The Whistle Blows was missing the character of Kimberley, played by Sarah Moyle. Hopefully someone can add more of a bio for her character. Illuminattile 13:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Is it worth me making a wiki page for Sarah Moyle. Quite a few red links to her from her other works (Emmerdale and Daddy Cool) TimothyJacobson (talk) 03:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Final Episode
From what I gathered from the video on rickygervais.com, it sounds like August 2007 for the filming and then out in time for xmas this year? Dont know where they're getting 2008 from as its not in the other cited article either?? Could someone elaborate on this?

Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant said in a video on Ricky's website that it will be out fro Christmas Drogo 19:36, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

A thought
Is Liza Tarbuck the only person in the series to play themself as themself rather than as a parody? - 88.109.29.254 13:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Synopsis needs major trimming
Half of it is basically a synopsis of the Christmas special which finished half an hour ago. Why is it more important than two series full of important plot advances? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.200.243.73 (talk) 22:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Larry David
I have removed the section on "major influences", as only one is listed (which, surely should be mentined on Ricky Gervais wiki page rather than this one, as Ricky has often commented that Curb Your Enthusiam has influenced all his recent work, rather than just Extras. Also, there is way too much crap about who Larry David is, and what Curb Your Enthusiasm is about; surely that should be (and is) on the Larry David wiki page and the Curb wiki page respectively TimothyJacobson (talk) 02:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Holiday special, UK and US diffences, worth a mention?
Is it worth mentioning that some elements of the holiday special where changed for the US broadcast? One example during his Big Brother rant he says "..get Ruby Wax to present it, mabye it would make Jimmy Carrs top 100 caesarians" while in the US these where changed to suit US audiences. --Delta-NC (talk) 01:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The intoduction
There is nothing in the show about extras working in theatre. And Television should be mentioned too. Kakun (talk) 07:34, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

UK/US Differences
It doesn't make much sense listing the differences between the two in the first part of the article. A new section is needed showing clear and definitative differences instead of listing a few at the start of the article. I shall check IMDB to see if they list those changes. Baina90 (talk) 18:28, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Reviews section?
Here are some links to reviews that could be used -

80.225.132.29 (talk) 08:57, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Requested move (2013)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:11, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Extras → Extras (TV series) – Clearly not the primary topic. Extras should redirect to the disambiguation page extra, though I could be persuaded to send it straight to extra (actor). There was a WP:RM 7 years ago that decisively went in favor of the title I propose, but unfortunately someone unilaterally moved the page anyway sometime in the meanwhile. --Relisted. Nathan Johnson (talk) 12:52, 1 June 2013 (UTC) Red Slash 22:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

 * Strong support and speedy procedural rename 2009 rename was made in violation of existing 2006 consensus without seeking a new consensus, therefore the 2006 consensus should be restored. -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 04:11, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Plural titles work fine (see Neighbours and Popstars as other examples) and this is the primary topic of "Extras". Unreal7 (talk) 23:36, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment are you seriously comparing this TV show of 13 episodes with "Neighbours"? This isn't the primary usage of the plural, while you might be able to make that argument with Neighbours. -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 00:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * "Popstar" isn't a word. Red Slash 18:38, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Wiktionary begs to differ, but that doesn't make this move petition any less valid. — Llywelyn II   16:42, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. As Unreal says plural titles work just fine. The number of episodes makes no difference whatsoever. MarnetteD | Talk 13:46, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support. This is not the primary topic and the previous move was made in violation of existing consensus. 65.etc may have forgotten to sign in, but he still makes good points. — Llywelyn II   16:40, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Not primary topic.--KTo288 (talk) 21:07, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Support and should have been speedy procedural rename ...comparison with Neighbours falls down since "Extra (actor)" is by nature used in plural sense since extras tend to be uncredited and many. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC doesn't show this standing up against Extras (The Jam album), Zhu Chuanming 2001 Extras (film), won't mention Extras (novel). In ictu oculi (talk) 04:13, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Support no one has offered any evidence that this is the best know use of the term extras.--174.95.111.89 (talk) 02:21, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Clearly. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:27, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Extra is ambiguous. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:58, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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"The Extras" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect The Extras and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 2 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Bassie f (talk) 07:34, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Extras (TV series)


text:
Indigenous Team of the Century

The Indigenous Team of the Century was selected in 2005 to recognise the role of Indigenous Australians in Australian rules football. Graham Farmer was named as the team's captain, while Barry Cable was selected as the team's coach. Eight of the players were still active in the Australian Football League (AFL) at the time of being selected.

Description
The Indigenous Team of the Century was announced in 2005 to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the first senior-level game played by an indigenous player in the Victorian/Australian Football League, Fitzroy's Joe Johnson.

The panel's final selection from a shortlist of 35 consisted of 24 players, 19 of whom have represented clubs competing in the Victorian/Australian Football League, whilst the remaining five were picked for their record in either the South Australian National Football League or the West Australian Football League.

The Team
An umpire, Glenn James, was also selected.

The selection panel
The Indigenous Team of the Century selection panel consisted of:
 * Patrick Dodson (AFL Indigenous Foundation board member)
 * Ernie Dingo (media personality)
 * Glenn James (former umpire)
 * Kevin Sheedy (Essendon Football Club coach)
 * Kevin Sheehan (AFL national talent manager)
 * Mike Sheahan (journalist)
 * Michelangelo Rucci (journalist)
 * Col Hutchinson (AFL historian)

Similar teams
The AFL announced its Team of the Century in 1996, which also featured Graham Farmer in the lead ruck position. Other ethnic based teams such as the Greek Team of the Century and Italian Team of the Century have also been announced. Many individual clubs have also named teams of the century, with South Fremantle Football Club announcing their own Indigenous Team of the Century in July 2009. The National Rugby League announced their Indigenous Team of the Century in 2008.

title: Indigenous Team of the Century


text:
User talk:-1

Don't bother welcoming me; I've been around for ages. After receiving a threat, I have decided to move to an account that hides my identity. -1 12:32, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:-1


text:
File:Street Scape, Menara Ansar 3.jpg

Summary
Menara Ansar and Johor Bahru City Square buildings within Daerah Sentral Johor Bahru (Johor Bahru Central District)

title: File:Street Scape, Menara Ansar 3.jpg


text:
User:-1

-1

title: User:-1


text:
Talk:Leith Hill

Untitled
"Mr Eveleyn of nearby Wotten Hall" should this be "Mr Evelyn of nearby Wotton Hall. There were famous Evelyns in the nearby village of Wotton. Stamford spiney 12:32, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Climbing to Leith Hill Tower 27th October 2006
The tower was a sight to behold, especally after that long climb. Hidden by the trees at first, it slowly emerged into view and I could see I was at the top of the hill.

The time was about 4:30pm, and the tower closed at 5pm. ut after getting all this way, I wasn't going to just leave, so I bought a ticket and made my way up the tower along a very narrow and dark stone staircase. Along all the walls countless carvings and scraches had been made in the stonework, each reveling a past visistor to the hill. The oldest one I could find was from 1969, although I dare say there are much older ones there. And yes, the temptation was too great to resist and I added my own, SHADOW, to the collection, inspired by a carving I had seen at Box Hill that read: "DRAGON, 10 V 56".

Half way up the tower I came to a two small rooms. It was basically an information centre, with leaflets and poasters about Leith Hill, the tower and the national trust. The most entertaining things in this room included and light up map of the area and a talking notice board.

Moving on and upwards, it was another dark set of stairs before I reached the top, and emerging from a tiny wooden doorway I steped out onto a landing surrounded by views in every direction. A telescope sat in the far right corner and after wasting 20p on a thirty second use of it, I stopped and just admired the views. It was lovely up their, with a light cold October breeze and the orange sun settting behind a blanket of thick grey colud streaching accross the horision. I could really imagian myselfe living somewhere like this in simpler times. But like all things this dream had to end, and it wasn't long before it was closing time at the tower. As I was the last and only person still up there, I was given the honor, after having a chat with the national trust volonteeire on the ground from the top of tower, to close up and lock all the doors as I made my way down. Think outside the box 14:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Height
The height was given as 294m/965ft in the infobox and 295m/968ft in the main article. I have corrected the latter, as 294m is correct according to the OS maps. (NB the older, imperial maps also back this up, giving the height as 965ft). 143.252.80.100 13:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Geographical Error
This article indicates Leith Hill as being he highest point on the North Downs. The North Downs are the range of chalk hills running just north of Guildford, Dorking and Reigate. Leith Hill is sandstone and is part of the Greendsand Ridge which runs parallel to the North Downs some distance south of these towns.

86.133.186.159 22:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Not sure - there seems to be a tendency to describe the Surrey Hills as being part of the North Downs. Geologically you're probably right, but we'd need to find a reference to change it. –EdC 00:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Quite the opposite. You need to find a reference to say it IS on the north downs, as it stands the references for the article do not do that. It is on the greensand ridge, several miles south of the North Downs. --LiamE 01:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Is it a geographical error though? I don't know how far the fact is true that it is only chalk hills which determine the name North Downs. Can you cite evidence?
 * Can the National Trust ,the National Trails website, The Leisure Guide be so wrong? I will say the Surrey Wildlife Trust does state:
 * "The highest point in south east England, Leith Hill sits upon the Greensand Ridge that runs parallel with the North Downs through Surrey".
 * Then the "Surrey Hills" website combines all the locations under the catch-all title "Surrey Hills", but then carries on:
 * "there are numerous other locations along the North Downs and Greensand Hills that afford a view over the surrounding countryside"
 * The point I am making is, has it been established that the North Downs consist of chalk hills and chalk hills only, or is it conceivable that other types of soil/geological formations may be part of the name "North Downs". Can you actually cite any sources that this is so? I am afraid you will have to now that so many different opinions seem to be abroad. Or is it just a matter of 'you pays your money and takes your choice'?
 * I am also going to put my points into the talk page of the North Downs article. Dieter Simon 00:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello. The following extracts are from the Wealden District volume of the British Regional Geology series published by the National Environment Research Council's Institute of Geological Sciences (4th Ed. 1965). You should be able to borrow a copy from the local public library.

Page 39 "The Weald proper is surrounded by the chalk downs, the North Downs extending from Farnham to Dover and the South Downs extending from Petersfield to Eastbourne. The greater part of the chalk downland is occupied by Upper Chalk; Middle Chalk and Lower Chalk crop out chiefly in the scarped slopes of the North and South Downs, and at the bottom of some valleys."

P67 "...the Lower Greensand escarpment which reaches nearly 1000 ft OD in the Leith Hill district of Surrey includes the highest part of the Weald... The Chalk Downs encircle the Lower Greensand hills from which they are separated by a narrow belt of low-lying ground... In contrast to that of the Lower Greensand the chalk escarpment is remarkably constant in height throughout its length..."

P69 "The district includes the four well-known hills of Leith Hill, Holmbury Hill, Coneyhurst Hill and Winterfold Heath, and forms the highest part of the Lower Greensand outcrop of the Weald, the top of Leith Hill being 965 ft above sea level."

I think that these extracts show that the British Geological Survey consider that the Greensand Ridge is not part of the North Downs and that the North Downs are purely a Chalk formation. Mertbiol 16:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Two further references. (They are both from specialist academic geology books, so it may be difficult to obtain copies.)

 * Benninson GM and Wright AE (1969) The geological history of the British Isles Published by Edward Arnold (London)

"Chert is important in the western outcrops and so reinforces the lower Greensand that it forms a higher outcrop at Leith Hill than that of the chalk Downs nearby." page 321
 * Dines HG and Edmunds FH (1933) The Geology of the country around Reigate and Dorking published by the Department of Science and Industry Research

"The chalk hills or North Downs form a bold and striking feature rising abruptly on the north side side of Holmsdale and continuing except where broken by gaps across the district." page 1 If you would like to challenge this then you need to provide a peer-reviewed publication which explicitly says that the name North Downs is also used for the Greensand Ridge. The chalk and greensand outcrops may well be closely associated, but that does not mean that the same name is used for both. Mertbiol 12:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is the same section with the reply from Dr D T Aldiss which I have already included in the talk page for the article 'North Downs':

Hi, Mertbiol and LiamE, I wish to apologise about the discussion on my part and that your points were absolutely correct. I should like to cite the reply I received to my query from Dr Donald T Aldiss, of the British Geological Survey:

Dear Mr Simon Thank you for your enquiry of 1 November 2007. You wrote: Three queries have been thrown up in a couple of Wikipedia articles: 1. Is it true that both the North Downs as well as the South Downs are pure chalk hill ranges and nothing but chalk hills?

2.Is the Greensand Ridge, for example, a purely vertical and separate inclusion and has no horizontal layers of greensand either underlying or overlaying layers of chalk in the Downs?

3. Is Leith Hill which is on the Greensand Ridge therefore not classified as being part of the North Downs at all?

I would be grateful if you could clear this up and allow me to quote your reply whatever it may be.

<1 One should be aware of a distinction between the rock type (lithology) 'chalk' (no capital letter), which is a type of rather pure fine-grained limestone, and the lithostratigraphic unit, the 'Chalk Group' (always with a capital letter), which is a succession of rock strata of Upper Cretaceous age. The Chalk Group is composed mostly of chalk but includes other rock types such as flint and 'marl' (clay-rich chalk).

In general, downland topography is formed by the Chalk, including both the North Downs and the South Downs. The Chalk in these hills is in some places overlain by superficial deposits such as gravels or the clay-with-flints, but otherwise it is true that the North Downs and South Downs are formed of nothing but the Chalk. 2 The Greensand Ridge is separate from the Downs. Again, one has to be aware of the distinction between 'greensand' (typically glauconitic sand or sandstone; literally 'green sand') and 'the Greensand', a lithostratigraphic term which usually refers to the Lower Greensand Group (of Lower Cretaceous age). The Lower Greensand does contain some greensand, but also much silt, clay and limestone: most of it is neither green nor sand. It forms a distinct layer below the Gault Formation and the Upper Greensand Formation which directly underlie the Chalk Group. The 'Greensand Ridge' typically refers to one of a series of escarpments formed by the Lower Greensand. In Surrey, the Upper Greensand is thin and is not separately marked by rising ground, but elsewhere (in Sussex and Berkshire, for example) it too forms an escarpment. These groups and formations each occur in separate layers. In Surrey these dip northwards, generally at an angle of 2 degrees or less but increasing to as much as 55 degrees in the Hogs Back area, west of Guildford. No greensand occurs above the Chalk, except in the sense that there are some thin beds of green glauconitic sand in the Lambeth Group and other Palaeogene-age deposits of the London Basin. If you need further information about the stratigraphic units named here, please refer to the BGS Lexicon of Named Rock Units: http://www.bgs.ac.uk/lexicon/lexicon_intro.html 3 Leith Hill forms part of the Greensand Ridge, not part of the North Downs as most people would use the term. If you wish to quote this information, please acknowledge that its source is the British Geological Survey. I would be interested to know which Wikipedia articles have thrown up these questions, please. yours sincerely Don Aldiss D T Aldiss, PhD CGeol District Geologist, London and the south-east

British Geological Survey Keyworth Nottingham NG12 5GG >

I have replied to Dr Aldiss and mentioned the two articles involved, 'North Downs' and 'Leith Hill'. So, if you find anything in the articles that is missing in the light of what he has said, please complement them. Hope that this will be satisfactory to everyone concerned. I shall also add this to the article "North Downs". Dieter Simon 00:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Question concerning the burial Of Richard Hull
In the body of information regarding the tower, it states that Richard Hull was buried upside down because he thought that the world would one day turn "topsy turvy" and that when this happened he would be the right way up. This may of course be right but I cannot help but wonder if the writer was given this mixed up with Peter Labilliere who was buried at nearby Box Hill in this manner. Having studied local history at Dorking Library when I was younger, I had access to some old history books and none of these mentioned the upside down burial. Although it clearly states that Richard Hull was indeed interred in the lower part of the tower. — Sameko (talk)

Battle of Acleah
There is some debate as to whether Aethelwulf fought the vikings here. Stenton claims it definitely was not here as Ockley was not referred to by this name until several centuries later. The Buckinghmashire village of Oackley is seen by some as a more likely candidate. Altered the wording to add that it is not certain.Robruss24 13:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Charles Darwin at Leith Hill Place
It is well documented from his letters that Charles Darwin stayed several times at Leith Hill Place and conducted several field studies there. He particularly worked on worms and their effects on the soil. There are 3 'worm stones' still in place nearby. He also conducted some research on soils in and around the nearby Roman Villa at Abinger. Finally, he communicated with Russel Wallace whilst he was staying in Rose Hill in nearby Dorking. Unfortunately, I only have second-hand sources for this information (a private lecture at a local society). Does anyone have acces to sources for this? It would be an interesting addition to the article.Robruss24 (talk) 08:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Which 13 counties?
Does anyone have a source which says which 13 counties can be seen from Leith Hill? I'd guess there are about 9 obvious ones: Surrey, Kent, Sussex, Hampshire, Berkshire, London, Essex, Herts, Bucks. What are the other 4? SP-KP (talk) 16:57, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

 * Currently Sussex is technically 2 counties, east and west, and London has 2 separate administrative areas (City of London and Greater London) which brings it up to 11. I'd hazard a guess that some of the Chilterns can be seen with a telescope, (too much heat haze today) which might bring in Oxfordshire and Bedfordshire as the last 2. Will go up there when it's clear and work it out — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.24.252.178 (talk) 18:12, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

 * I think the National Trust claims that 13 counties were visible back in 1905 (not today). (Trees have grown up and there have been some boundary changes since.) There's a display in the tower itself, which lists them all. (You can see the list in this video around the 4:40 mark.) The counties are: Surrey, Herts, Essex, Kent, East Sussex, West Sussex, Dorset, Hampshire, Wiltshire, Berks, Oxfordshire, Bucks and Bedfordshire. (IMHO Dorset and Wiltshire are too much of a stretch and I am surprised that London and Middlesex are not listed instead!) Mertbiol (talk) 15:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Leith Hill