text:
Talk:Harry Magdoff/Archive 1

original research
Any attempt to reinstall McCarthyite conspiracy theories and rants into this article will be vigorously resisted. 172 | Talk 12:55, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Nobs's writings were sourced rather specifically. Ad hominems (and obscenities) are not a trump card, especially fifty years after the fact.  --TJive 13:44, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

 * He is not using secondary sources. What he is doing is "original research," a nice way of writing saying spewing defamatory bullshit. 172 | Talk 15:32, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

172, you need to be a bit more clear in your charge. Were it true that he is "not using secondary sources", this would not itself constitute a violation of no original research. As the article states:

 * The phrase "original research" in this context refers to untested theories; data, statements, concepts and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas that, in the words of Wikipedia's founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation".

Original research is research that creates primary sources or secondary sources. [The emphases are mine.]

I looked at the version which you challenged and changed; I have not been sufficiently moved to look through the entire history thus far. In that version of the article, he gave the following sources:

An Encyclopedia Britannica entry on the "International Brigades" in support of the claim that, "the Abraham Lincoln Brigade [was] a Comintern organization that fought in the Spanish Civil War." The entry is not fully available but the article states that, "the International Brigades were recruited, organized, and directed by the Comintern, with headquarters in Paris. The U.S. contingent called itself the Abraham Lincoln Batallion." The encylopedia is being used in this context as a secondary source, and his factual claim is thus not novel.

A 91 page FBI document for the claim that, "An FBI investigation later revealed that Magdoff made many false statements regarding his employment after graduation in order to obtain employment with the federal government." I have not read through the entire document to establish the veracity of this, and it does not appear to be word search compatible; this document, in the meantime, could be construed as either a primary document or a secondary one depending on how it is used.

An article which is purported by Nobs to be a "United States Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive" history, hosted on the website of the Federation of American Scientists. He cites page 31 to state that, "According to United States Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive (ONCIX) Official History, Magdoff was a member of the Perlo group of Soviet spies (See pg. 31)." The relevant text of page 31 is as follows:
 * The following were members of the Victor Perlo Network....Harry Magdoff: Statistical Division of WPB and Office of Emergency Management; Bureau of Research and Statistics, WTB; Tools Division, War Production Board; Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, Commerce Department.

The reference is being used as a secondary source in which the claim is being attributed to it.

A web page of historian John Earl Haynes on which it appears posted what purports to be notes on a KGB document analyzed by "Alexander Vassiliev, a former KGB officer". The link directs to the following text:
 * 3. “Tan” – Harry Magdoff, former employee of the Commerce Department.[41]

Which refers to this annotation by John Earl Haynes:
 * Magdoff, an economist, was a source for Bentley’s Perlo network. He worked for the War Production Board in World War II and then for the Commerce Department.  He appeared in 1944 Venona messages as a Soviet source under the cover name Kant.  Tan appeared only once in the deciphered Venona traffic, in a 1945 message, and was unidentified; but the context was consistent with it being Magdoff.  Tan, it appears, had replaced Kant as Magdoff’s cryptonym in 1945.

These sources (the document and the annotation) are provided for the claim:
 * Magdoff was identified by Arlington Hall cryptographers in the Venona project and FBI counterintelligence investigators as a Soviet source under the cover name "Kant" in 1944. Code name "Tan", which appears in the 1948 Gorsky Memo, and appears once in deciphered 1945 Venona traffic, according to researcher John Earl Haynes, is consistent with Magdoff. Code name "Tan", as the evidence suggests, replaced "Kant" as Magdoff’s cryptonym in 1945.

Part of which is attributed directly to Haynes, the rest of it is already suggested by him.

An article by Vladimir Pozniakov, "a Senior Researcher at the Institute of General History of the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow," published by the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars Cold War International History Project, apparently hosted by the Smithsonian Institute. Nobs's claim, in reference to this article, is that:
 * Magdoff's complicity in espionage was corroborated by a message exhumed from the NKVD archives in Moscow in the 1990s. A message from the head of KGB foreign intelligence operations, Lt. General Pavel M. Fitin, to Secretary General of the Comintern Georgi Dimitrov dated September 29, 1944 requested information on Magdoff related to his recruitment into the espionage service of the Soviet Union.

Magdoff's name appears within the 18th footnote:
 * 19 Feklisov, pp. 65-105; M. Vorontsov, Capt. 1st rank, Chief Navy Main Staff, Intelligence Directorate, and Petrov, Military Commissar, NMS, ID to G. Dimitrov, 15 August 1942, No. 49253ss, typewritten original; G. Dimitrov to Pavel M. Fitin, 20 November 1942, No. 663, t/w copy; P. M. Fitin to G. Dimitrov, 14 July 1944, No. 1/3/10987, t/w copy; P. M. Fitin to G. Dimitrov, 29 September 1944, No. 1/3/16895, t/w copy. All these documents are NMS ID and FCD Chiefs' requests for information related to Americans and naturalized American citizens working in various US Government agencies and private corporations, some of whom had been CPUSA members. The last two are related to a certain Donald Wheeler (an OSS official), Charles Floto or Flato (who in 1943 worked for the "...Dept. of Economic Warfare"), and Harry Magdoff (War Production Board)-the request dated 29 Sept. 1944-and to Judith Coplon who according to the FCD information worked for the Dept. of Justice.-RTsKhIDNI, f. 495, op. 74, d. 478, l. 7; d. 484, l. 34; d. 485, l. 10, 14, 17, 31, 44.

It is in reference to this passage (itself positioned after the previous footnote):
 * Also, the limitations imposed on the usage of the CPUSA membership did not mean that Soviet intelligence ceased recruiting both Americans and non-Americans in America.

Since this article itself attempts to correlate primary sources in interpreting data, it is a secondary source and the claim staked by Nobs seems to me a plain reading of what is written there.

"Allen Weinstein and Alexander Vassiliev, The Haunted Wood: Soviet Espionage in America—the Stalin Era (New York: Random House, 1999)", a book co-authored by the individual whose material is quoted as a primary document in another source given by Nobs. I do not see how this could be cited as a primary source.

"Harvey Klehr, John Earl Haynes, and Fridrikh Igorevich Firsov, The Secret World of American Communism (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1995)", the second of whom annotated the aforementioned primary document. I do not see how this could be cited as a primary source.

"Alexander Vassiliev, Untitled Notes on Anatoly Gorsky’s December 1948 Memo on the Failed American Networks (2003)", what would seem to be by now an obvious reference though I can not locate the source of this specific title.

"Feklisov, Alexandre, The Man Behind the Rosenbergs: Memoirs of the KGB Spymaster Who Also Controlled Klaus Fuchs and Helped Resolve the Cuban Missile Crisis, New York: Enigma, 2001", which has no readily apparent relevance but would hardly seem to be a primary source.

Your suggestion that he is conducting inappropriate original research is quite baffling then, considering that every contentious analytical claim is referenced, quite explicitly, and typically attributed directly to that source. Unless he is one of the individuals cited in this article, then he is actually following what is officially encouraged policy:

 * [R]esearch that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is strongly encouraged. In fact, all articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from primary and secondary sources. This is called source-based research, and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.

I would politely suggest that you tone down the rancorous language and instead focus specifically on concerns you may have regarding the sources themselves or the presentation of information, rather than deleting content wholesale with nothing but personal attacks and vague threats. It is neither helpful in attempting to resolve such a dispute nor does it conform with expected policy and behavior. --TJive 17:18, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

 * We only have evidence here that he was hounded by the FBI during the McCarthy era, and hardly anything corroborating the claim that he was a Soviet spy by secondary sources. I do not regret my language. Wikipedia will not be used to turn the clock back to the McCarthy era. 172 | Talk 17:31, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

 * We only have evidence here that he was hounded by the FBI during the McCarthy era

 * I am not sure what this is in reference to. McCarthy was in control of the PSI not the FBI.  I'm not sure what the date of the FBI report listed is from, but it does not concern the more specific references to documentation regarding his activities (rather the assertion that he lied in order to get a job); they come not only from counter-intelligence but research into KGB sources.

 * hardly anything corroborating the claim that he was a Soviet spy by secondary sources.

 * I just got through explaining in a bit of detail how the references were being used as secondary sources and in many instances were attributing the info and the claim directly to those sources. I am not sure what standard you are using here or that any would suffice.

 * Wikipedia will not be used to turn the clock back to the McCarthy era.

 * That is a rather anti-encylopedic and ahistorical attitude to correlating facts and valid information. Wikipedia is not supposed to be either an activist or agenda-driven tool.  If evidence comes to light which calls for a revision of history then history should be revised.  However, this article does not concern "the McCarthy era".  It concerns Magdoff.  I'm not sure if you are aware of VENONA or the research into Soviet archives after the collapse, much less the work of such as Weinstein, Vassiliev, Haynes, Klehr, and so forth.  That is no excuse to deny that this all exists.  And condescendingly referring to Nobs' gathering of this known and published information as "bullshit" and "detective work" is neither helpful or particularly relevant, as he is not going further than what the references say or violating policy in his work.  --TJive 16:32, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for a very well studied presentation of the evidence. I might include, the source included within the text from the FAS website is a duplicate reprint of that available listed at the bottom the page from the Official History of the Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive (ONCIX) edited by Frank J. Rafalko, entitled, [http://www.nacic.gov/history/CIReaderPlain/Vol3Chap1.pdf|A Counterintelligence Reader, vol. 3 chap. 1, pg. 31]. The two are identical and are Open Source information. Nobs01 19:04, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

 * This isn't the place for your detective work, which is not adequately corroborated by secondary sources. 172 | Talk 19:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

 * OK, you want a secondary source, here's one: Nigel West, Venona: The Greatest Secret of the Cold War (HarperCollins, London, 1999), which describes Magdoff as a "member[] of a new network" (one containing Perlo and others). There's a bit more about him in this book, but I won't bother to type it in. Noel (talk) 22:43, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Oh, here's another secondary source (mentioned above, but here's what it says): it turns out I do have The Secret World of American Communism, which is about the contents of Comintern archives released to Western researchers in the 1990's, It's published by Yale University, hardly a source of disreputable, shadowy, works.
 * The Comintern memo (Document 90) of 28/29 September 1944 (no doubt a response to the Venona May messages given below, since it names the same list of people) which it provides includes the entry "5. Magadoff, works on the WPB." This book goes on to say:
 * Of the seven names in the message, Elizabeth Bentley named six of them ... Harry Mogadoff ... as sources from whom she received espionage material.
 * I know Elizabeth Bentley is something of a bête noire on the left, but alas for them, she's the real thing. Pavel Sudoplatov, a two-star general in the NKVD who ran the NKVD's "Administration for Special Tasks", says in his autobiography Special Tasks that:
 * ''For the FBI to utilize the disclosures by Guzenko, and later by Elizabeth Bentley, an American NKVD agent, to penetrate and destroy our agent networks was not an easy job.
 * thereby confirming that she really was an NKVD agent, and really did blow real agents/sources (including Mogadoff) to the US authorities. Noel (talk) 21:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Note on [http://foia.fbi.gov/silversm/silversm2c.pdf FBI Silvermaster group file, pgs. 182-188 in original], will be found on pgs. 3-9 in PDF format. Nobs01 19:18, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Another secondary source: Herbert Romerstein, Stanislav Levchenko, The KGB Against the "Main Enemy": How the Soviet Intelligence Service Operates Against the United States, (Lexington, Mass. : Lexington Books, 1989), pg. 108, lists Harry Magdoff as a member of the Perlo group. nobs 20:39, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Note on above source material cited by TJive: Allen Weinstein is currently the Archivist of the United States; see American Histrical Association, Allen Weinstein Becomes Ninth Archivist of the United States.  nobs 20:02, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Reference to McCarthy
Reverted and placed here pending sourcing that Harry Magdoff ever testified before the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations.
 * Magdoff became vulnerable during the McCarthy Era.  nobs 23:13, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I would hope all issues can be resolved without an edit war. In regards to this issue, there definitely were "security concerns" regarding Magdoff. Those "security concerns" did not originate with charges by Joseph McCarthy. No evidence has been presented that Magdoff was a "victim" of McCarthy. Magdoff's security concerns have been well documented. I would very much like to complete a well rounded bio-page of Magdoff, entailling all aspects of what appears to be a very interesting life. Hiding facts, however, and invoking distortions, IMHO, will ultimatley serve no purpose and fail. I look forward to cooperation with any serious student of Magdoff. nobs 15:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Venona
Before I looked at this article Nobs01 states as historical fact that: '''Magdoff was a member of the Perlo group of Soviet spies. Magdoff appears in 1944 Venona messages as a Soviet source under the cover name "Kant". '''

OK, well first of all Google shows the words "magdoff", "kant" and "venona" appear on exactly four web pages ("hiss", "ales" and "venona" appear on over 700). One of these pages is Nobs01's Wikipedia entry, so it's really three entries. One is from a white supremacist site, which seems to be quoting from another source. One is from some far-right red-under-every-bed author, who basically accuses pretty much every known figure on the left, whether communist or not, of being a Soviet spy - Alger Hiss, Harry Magdoff, Harry Dexter White, even IF Stone for God's sake. The other is a memo referring to the original Venona message, and the speculations of those at the time, let's see what that was:

[53 groups unrecoverable] MAGDOFF - "KANT".

So US intelligence was not able to retrieve this whole sentence, just the last two words, Magdoff and Kant. Everything else is just a speculation. Now first of all, who is to say this is Harry Magdoff? There are Magdoff's living in California, Nevada, Louisiana, Vermont, Massachusetts. Why is is Harry Magdoff? More importantly, spies never have their name transmitted by the Soviets. Code names are always used. So if his name was transmitted, it actually would help his case.

Nobs01 is putting all of this wild speculation about Venona into Wikipedia as factual encyclopedia articles. In fact, I just looked and see IF Stone is being accused of being a Soviet spy as well. Why not just go edit the FDR and Truman articles and accuse them of "twenty years of treason" like McCarthy did? It's quite ridiculous we have to waste our time cleaning up after people putting in the kind of stuff the John Birch Society put out during the McCarthy era. Ruy Lopez 18:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

 * You should quote the entire 13 May message (text, image), not just two words:
 * "On HELMSMAN's instructions GOOD GIRL contacted through AMT a new group in CARTHAGE: [53 groups unrecoverable] MAGDOFF - "KANT". GOOD GIRL's impressions: They are reliable FELLOWCOUNTRYMEN, politically highly mature; they want to help with information. They said that they had been neglected and no oone had taken any interest in their potentialities [29 groups unrecoverable] "STORM". RAIDER, PLUMB, TED, and KANT will go to TYRE once every two weeks in turn. PLUMB and TED know PAL. We shall let you have identifying particulars later."
 * Note that the name Magdoff is completely spelled out (i.e. the assignment of KANT to Magdoff was not just detective/guesswork, but comes from a direct textual connection in a decrypt).
 * Shortly thereafter (as promised - We shall let you have identifying particulars later) there's this 30 May messsage (image, pg 1 image, pg 2 image, pg 3), which is a long list of the "[members] of [a] new group":
 * "The probationers of the new group have given the following personal histories of themselves:" ... "2. 'KANT' became a fellow COUNTRYMAN a long time ago, being [8 groups unrecovered], works in the Machine Tool Division of the DEPOT."
 * which states flat out that the Magdoff in question worked in the War Production Board, pretty much confirming that the Magdoff in question is this one.

 * Your statement that spies never have their name transmitted by the Soviets. Code names are always used. is incorrect, as you can see on page 2 of the second message, where Harold Glasser's name is given in full.
 * Please note that your use of the term "spies" is loose and imprecise; the NKVD (and is predecessors and successors) carefully distinguished between "agent" (someone who had a formal relationship with the NKVD, sometimes involving money), and "sources", a term which covered a wide range of people, some of whom might just be gossips, not witting helpers. There's a wide range in there, and just because some is named as a source of information, and is given a covername, doesn't mean they were "spies" (in the conventional meaning of the term).

 * Your ranting about the John Birch Society and the McCarthy era is absolutely out of place. If you have any facts to bring to the table, please produce them. Noel (talk) 20:36, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

 * You are still making quite a stretch to say that Harry Magdoff was definitely, in fact, a Soviet spy. First we have a sentence where only two word appear, Magdoff and Kant.  For you, this is enough proof that Harry Magdoff is Kant. I wonder why if Magdoff is some kind of secret agent, why the names of everyone around his entry has a code name, but it wasn't seen fit to give him one.

 * It doesn't matter if everyone who has written about Venona (including Wise and Haynes) has made a mistake in linking Magdoff and KANT, because i) actual documents from Comintern archives, including one photographically reproduced in Secret World of American Communism refer to him by name, and ii) he was identified by name by Elizabeth Bentley as someone from whom she had gotten information for the Soviets - and Bentley's bona-fides as a real NKVD agent who blew real assets is vouched for by no less a person than a 2-star general of the MGB/MVD! (See above.) Noel (talk) 22:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Then you somehow look at the message "'KANT' became a fellow COUNTRYMAN a long time ago, being [8 groups unrecovered], works in the Machine Tool Division of the DEPOT." as being this "states flat out that the Magdoff in question worked in the War Production Board". Sorry, but I don't see this at all.  At least five people are said by Nobs to be spies in the War Production Board.  This message doesn't even connect Kant to the production board since 8 groups of the cipher missing between the mention of Kant and the code name which is supposed to represent the War Production Board.  This would be like seeing something mentioned on one page of a book, flipping eight pages forward, seeing that someone works at a codename which they think is a board, and then saying there is a definitive connection.  Even if there was a connection, which there isn't, Magdoff is not the only person who worked on the War Production Board.  He worked in the Statistical Division of the WPB anyhow, Nobs is trying to list him as working at multiple divisions, which is absurd.

 * If you actually look at the page that text is from, you'll see that the sentence I quoted is one entry from a list of names, each of which is of the form "[Person] [what they do]" - so those missing 8 groups (i.e. at most 8 words) are all part of the description of KANT, to whom the latter part also applies. But as I point out above; this is all nit-pickings; Mogadoff was identified by name by both an NKVD agent and Comintern archives. Noel (talk) 22:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The "facts" which "prove" Magdoff was a Soviet spy have more holes than a sponge. Enormous leaps of conclusions are made here.  I should also mention that there is very little discussion on the Internet of the idea of Magdoff being a spy, aside from here, the white supremacist site and the 2 conspiracy sites. Ruy Lopez 21:07, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm a bit bemused by your reference to the white supremacist site and the 2 conspiracy sites. The sites I linked to were the NSA, and John Earl Haynes (owner of another site linked to) is a specialist in 20-th century US history at the Library of Congress, which is not exactly a wooden shack full of people dressed in white sheets. The reason that there's little about Mogadoff in the records is that he's a relatively minor figure in the 1940s Soviet intelligence network; just a minor source who provided some (probably not very important) information. Its not the most important fact about him, but it's worth noting, both in and of itself, and because when Bentley accused him, it had consequences for his career. Noel (talk) 23:49, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

 * He's referring to a particular search he seems to have put in to dismiss the importance of it which besides being a non sequitur ignores completely that the vast majority of the evidence for and characterizations of Magdoff in this context come from researchers published in respectable forums, ex-KGB officers, admitted spies, and government agencies. --TJive 00:02, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

 * Please check out the absurdity of Magdoff's own words http://foia.fbi.gov/silversm/silversm2c.pdf (pgs. 4-5 in the PDF format),

 * "''In a supplemental questionaire executed September 4, 1942, Magdoff stated that he was the father of two sons, aged three years and five months; that he was appointed "Chief of the Control Records Section of the War Production Board." His salary was indicated by him as $541.67 per month.

 * "''In a questionaire executed by his employer, maintained by Local Board no. 3, Magdoff's employment was described as "Economimic Analyst, Chief, Current Business Analysis Unit," salary $6750 per annum, date entered present position, July 4, 1944. It was stated that Magdoff serves as an expert analyst and advisor to officials of the Department (War Production Board) upon the fundemental problems arising from mobilization of the nations's resources, inter-relationships of major segments of the economy under war strains - anticipation of major bottleneck and backward areas which retard national effort.

 * "''In response to a questionaire completed by Harry Magdoff he listed the following employment:
 * ''1940 - 1942 - WPA Statisitcs Division, Senior Economic Statisitician,
 * ''July 4, 1944 to the date of questionaire (April 16, 1945) - Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, Chief, Currect Job Analysis Unit.

 * It should be noted many, many of the persons working in government during WWII who had covert relationships with Soviet intelligence changed jobs several times, or in some cases they were "on loan" from one Department of the government to another. nobs 22:11, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Nobs already gave a reference to his WPB employment:

 * http://www.nacic.gov/history/CIReaderPlain/Vol3Chap1.pdf

 * Harry Magdoff: Statistical Division of WPB and Office of Emergency Management; Bureau of Research and Statistics, WTB; Tools Division, War Production Board; Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, Commerce Department.

 * Also reformatted the comments so they are directly attributed to users, hopefully avoiding confusion. --TJive 22:42, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you Noel, excellent work and analysis. Yes indeed the term "spy" is applied too loosely too often; we are specifically refering to persons with covert relationship with Soviet intelligence, not the "unwitting type" which do occur, and I am working on a glossary of terminology which should help. For the record, here is more from Haynes and Klehr that references Magdoff:

 * Venona 629 KGB New York to Moscow, 5 May 1944
 * Venona 687 KGB New York to Moscow, 13 May 1944
 * Venona 769, 771 KGB New York to Moscow, 30 May 1944, part 1
 * Venona 769, 771 KGB New York to Moscow, 30 May 1944, part 2
 * Venona 769, 771 KGB New York to Moscow, 30 May 1944, part 3
 * Venona 179, 180 KGB Moscow to New York, 25 February 1945, uses codename "Tan"

 * Elizabeth Bentley told the FBI that on a rainy Sunday in March of 1944, at a meeting with the Perlo group, Harry Magdoff had been on sick leave recovering from an operation and was about to return to work at the War Production Board. The FBI checked and found that Magdoff had been on sick leave from January 10 to Marcy 7 1944 for a gall bladder operation, and that it had rained in New York on both Sunday February 27 and March 5, 1944.

Source: Elizabeth Bentley deposition, 30 November 1945, FBI file 65-14603; Elizabeth Bentley, Out of Bondage: The Story of Elizabeth Bentley, New York: Ivy Books, 1988), pgs. 163-165; New York FBI memo, 16 January 1947, FBI Silvermaster file (FBI file 65-56402), serial 1936. nobs 20:58, 18 July 2005 (UTC) I am not extremely knowledgeable on the specifics of the McCarthy era (other than how he was a bad dude -- learned that from my 8th grade ex-hippie teacher) but if sufficient evidence has been produced that Magdoff was a spy or some kind of intelligence asset, then we can retain the reference to McCarthyism in there without making him sound like a perfectly innocent victim. J. Parker Stone 05:59, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

"Forefront of leftist thought"
If this is true, I'd assume it'd have been in the '60s and '70s amongst the New Left. "Socialist" or "Marxist thought" would probably be more accurate, "leftist" strikes me as a little too broad for someone like Magdoff. Other than that, I just have to ask was he really a prominent figure (outside of this monthlyreview source, which naturally is gonna be complimentary) compared to others on the New Left? J. Parker Stone 05:44, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Sure - he was one of the Soviet Union's top spies! Ruy Lopez 05:57, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * har har. J. Parker Stone 06:02, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The New Left did not pass from the scene after the 1970s. The Monthly Review, New Left Review, and Journal of World System Research still publish some influential academic books, particularly in sociology and political economy. If you're going to study history and politics, there's a chance that you might be assigned Duncan Green's Sielent Revolution, David Harvey's New Imperialism, or Michel Beaud's History of Capitalism in one course or another, which were published by Monthly Review. 172 | Talk 06:48, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * goddammit 172 why'd you have to inform me of this, i'm already worried enough about the pinko professors i'm gonna have to listen to. btw, for now i'm gonna be majoring in econ.

getting back to the issue, my point was that the New Left was at its most influential in the '60s and '70s, even if some of their material is still used in academia. also whether he's really a prominent leftist figure today compared to other folks in mags like The Nation, which as far as I can tell is the most popular leftist publication in the U.S. today. J. Parker Stone 06:53, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Haha. In that case, you might be relatively safe; sociology departments are usually teaming with the most pinkos, while economics departments usually have the least... I see your point now. I'll go ahead and insert "leftist" and "socialist." 172 | Talk 07:34, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * my dad had a communist professor in Econ, but that was at UCSC, so yeah. banana slugs. J. Parker Stone 07:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

It is my understanding that Monthly Review is considerably more influential outside the US than inside, in places like India and Africa. IIRC, there are/have been translations of it in various languages. By Monthly Review, I also mean the MR crowd: Sweezy, Huberman, Magdoff, and many of the writers they published. -- Viajero | Talk 17:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * That's a good point to add to its pockets of influence in the U.S. in academia. Of course, there's also the influence in Russia, given that Magdoff has long been one of the Kremlin's top moles in the U.S. 172 | Talk 22:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt that Marxist opinion in general is much more popular in certain third world countries, but I was making my comments based on the fact that Magdoff is a U.S. citizen and MR is based in the U.S. J. Parker Stone 04:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed. But Wikipedia is an international project with readers from around the world. -- Viajero | Talk 09:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Well I have no major objections to how 172 changed the phrase. My only thought about the general article now is that it seems a little laudatory in certain spots since it's based on an article from the MR, but nothing horrendous. I ain't gonna get involved in the whole spy v. McCarthyite mess. J. Parker Stone 09:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Procedure
Let me first insert for the record, two terms I dislike and try to avoid are "spy" and "treason", while the first is sometimes unavoidable, the second is virtually non-existent in any of my wikipedia contributions, unless it occurs in a direct attributed quote, where the subject of the quote is something else.

That said, the proper proceedure is to (First) examine the credibility of the source, and (Second) examine the substance of source material. Any objections? nobs 17:56, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

 * By all means, and let's have the discussion on a seperate page while the claims are sorted out: Conspiracy allegations about Harry Magdoff--Cberlet 22:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Let's discuss the credibility of each source cited, then discuss substance. Agreed? nobs 00:56, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * OK, but it will make life easier to move the discussion over to the other page, and attempt to rewrite the section and then consider moving it all back. It's not like th charges have vanished.  Please give me a few minutes to write a little something on the other page.--Cberlet 01:20, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Here is the page: Conspiracy allegations about Harry Magdoff The title is a bit POV :-) but I did edit the lead to be less confrontational.--Cberlet 01:23, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Cberlet:

 * You need to stop moving large swaths of info to a non-NPOV page in order to discredit information by labeling it is a conspiracy theory, or "allegation". The info is a concise section that does not make Magdoff's bio large in and of itself.
 * Please quit condescendingly alluding to anyone's work on these articles as being related to McCarthy or McCarthyism, and quit alleging original research until you have evidence to prove the assertion. 172 has already come in saying the same things you have and had no more proof than has been given so far.
 * The discussion should continue here, not at the ridiculous POV page, and the page should be put up for Vfd. --TJive 01:39, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

 * I am trying to see that a constructive conversation takes place. Stop being so agressive and making demands.  In my view the material is speculative POV that is way too large given the rest of the text on the page. I have started a reasonable conversation on the other page which is directly linked to this one.  Feel free to rename it.  But please start be entering into a real discussion there first.  there are other editors on this page that think the accusations againt Magdoff are simply bogus.--Cberlet 03:21, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Saw you comment regarding misrepresentation. would be happy to discuss it. nobs 14:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * We are discussing it on the other page. You are welcome to join in.--Cberlet 15:22, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Sources and POV
Let's start by trying to find some neutral language to set the stage. People who believe in the claims about Magdoff being tied to the KGB are "Believers" while those who are skeptical are "Skeptics."

I'm a Skeptic, but I have edited another page with similar issues, including Venona documents, and folks ended up writing a compromise text.

The Skeptics need to see that the Believers have real published cites that cannot be ignored or simply dismissed as right-wing propaganda.

The Believers need to see that the Skeptics have real published cites that cannot be ignored or simply dismissed as left-wing propaganda.

These are largely mutually exclusive positions, and it is unlikely that one side will convince the other.

So what is a fair and NPOV edit?

That's what we will discuss here.

To start, there is a language problem. There is a difference between witting and unwitting information sources used by the KGB. There are KGB case officers, KGB operatives, and KGB agents. In tradecraft lingo, the KGB agent is a witting non-KGB-employee information source. This can be a paid or unpaid position. But the witting aspect is important.

Then there is the issue that intelligence operatives often write material later found in intelligence agency files that is not, in fact, true; and which tends to be written in a way that advances their career. So people they talk to who are not aware that they are talking to KGB operatives are frequently converted in the files into witting agents. This is quite common. See the work of Frank Donner for verification.

Few people have actually read the Vanona files, and those that have often disagree over what they reveal. We need to represent the Belivers and Skeptics in this regard. Most readers of the files have viewed them from a highly POV perspective.

Finally, many people who testified before McCarthy era committees made "sworn" statements that were never verified. Much of their claims have been challenged in published works. Some witnesses later recanted. Some witnesses made claims that were later verified. This is part of the story as well.

So as we examine the credibility of the sources for this section of the text, all of these factors need to be discussed in a reasonable and careful way that assumes good faith.

I have a POV about this matter, but so does everyone else. Let's all step back and try to edit fairly. For a start. I am deleting my original opening comments on this page. They did not assume good faith. I apologize.--Cberlet 01:45, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Cberlet, your actions today in general have not assumed good faith. Nobs has indicated to me that he does not wish to respond here as this page is inherently POV and I agree with him.  Move your comments to Talk:Harry Magdoff and we can discuss it.  --TJive 02:05, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

 * Cberlet, I agree here with your comments regarding the need to cool down and respect others' POV. However so far you have failed to understand why creating this page has been so far the worst thing towards achieving this.  Not only do you admit to angrily creating a POV-laced fork, it forbids us from taking a look at differences between the material in the overall context of Magdoff.  Certainly if there is any compromise whatsoever on the point of espionage it is not necessary whatsoever to have a separate article, so in effect you unilaterally created a sandbox to keep out info you personally dispute.  It was inflammatory and only complicated matters.

 * Regarding what else you have written, it is mainly vaguely referenced problems with VENONA itself, and there is no mention of how this may or may not apply specifically to Harry Magdoff where the information is corroborated in other sources as well. Are you suggesting Magdoff is unwitting?  That the agents lied?  Where is your proof?  What is a source that claims this at least besides Wiki editors?  Otherwise that is the only thing original research, not anything written so far.  --TJive 19:42, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

 * I believe Cberlet has misread the significance of the Boardman memo; it is not the working papers of the Army Signals Intelligence Service, or FBI Counterintelligence investigators, trying to match code names to suspects. It is the end product of that effort.  And the Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy, as well as the Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive "Official History", and the Archivist of the National Security Agency (custodian of documents for the Signals Intelligence Service) all come to the same conclusion.  Efforts to discredit Elizabeth Bentley no longer will hold up, nor any of the recycled arguements of the past half century from The Nation magazine.  nobs 20:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Note to Cberlet: While I appreciate your contributions, and would like to work with you, I politiely request that you place your notes as footnotes, as other editors have done. Many of the issues these notes raise are valid, and many also are incomplete or could be balanced with other material. So as not to break the continuity, for now I request you follow the established format, and we can discuss particulars to these insertions. Please note, I do not adopt a method of beginning with a conclusionary premise, i.e. beginning a subject with a preordained conclusion in mind, then seek out the evidence to support that conclusion. Rather, I use the historical method of Contemporaneous corroboration, moving along a fixed timeline and seeking (as under Mosaic Law) corroboration for narrative. And where corroboration does not exist, then a clear identification of the witness in question along with attestations to credibilty. I believe we can work together, but lets agree on method. Thank you so much. nobs 19:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Bentley
Elizabeth Bentley named over 80 supposed American spies, which if true means the KGB must have been one of the most incompetent spy organizations around. Most spy agencies wouldn't give their own case officers, people of their own nationality and who had been vetted, over 80 people to handle. If they defected it would be a disaster. But to let an American know of who over 80 spies are? It's preposterous. A cornerstone of spycraft is Need To Know. Yet the KGB let her know her - a foreigner, the identities of over 80 spies? This seems rather ridiculous. Only in an atmosphere of hysteria, a witch hunt, would the logical fallacies of this be apparent.

What is the evidence that Magdoff was a spy? "It was obvious to [her] that these people, including Abt, had been associated for some time and that they had been engaged in some sort of espionage for Earl Browder." OK, well why was that obvious? "There followed then a general discussion among all of us as to the type of information which these people, excepting Abt, would be able to furnish." I have seen this before in Red Scare cases. If a group of communists are sitting around, and one of them begins talking about his job, that becomes them discussing information that they're able to furnish. She didn't even say anyone furnished information, whatever that means, they just mentioned that they were able to furnish information, whatever that means. I should also mention that witnesses like Bentley were coached into what to say, which doesn't mean it's untrue, but the language of an innocent discussion of a day of work becomes transformed into a sinister communist plot. It should be recalled that the USSR was the US's ally during World War II also - these were not a bunch of former German-American Bund members talking about troop movements.

And I haven't even gotten into the stretching of what barely amounts to circumstantial evidence about Magdoff in Venona, being turned into proof that Magdoff was a Soviet spy.

And what came of all of this for Magdoff? Nothing. During the Red Scare people were thrown in jail, they were executed, why did nothing happen regarding all of this, if Magdoff was some kind of spy? Magdoff is still alive, and living in the New York City metropolitan area. If there's proof he's a spy, why hasn't he been arrested? Ruy Lopez 01:51, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * As I have pointed out to you before (and which you conveniently ignore), no less a source than Pavel Sudoplatov, a two-star general in the NKVD who ran the NKVD's "Administration for Special Tasks", says in his autobiography Special Tasks (pp. 217) that:

 * "For the FBI to utilize the disclosures by Guzenko, and later by Elizabeth Bentley, an American NKVD agent, to penetrate and destroy our agent networks was not an easy job."

 * thereby confirming that she really was an NKVD agent, and really did blow real agents/sources to the US authorities. If you won't believe a KGB two-star general (and note that Sudoplatov did not defect to the West, but stayed in Russia), exactly how good a source would it take to convince you she was for real?

 * To answer some of your other points, as for Most spy agencies wouldn't give their own case officers, people of their own nationality .. over 80 people to handle, this is simly untrue. Many defectors have blown hundreds of agents, e.g. Philip Agee and Vasili Mitrokhin; if I had time to look through my library I could dig up others who caused the same kind of damage.
 * Bentley knew so many agents/sources in part because she was a courier for Jacob Golos, and for others, for many years. Note, however, that she did not know the names for many of them - one famous example is Julius Rosenberg, whose name she did not know, but with whom she had had contact.
 * As to why Magdoff was never tried, I can only guess it was because he was a minor figure in the network, against whom the public evidence (remember, VENONA was secret - it wasn't used against the Rosenbergs) was thin, and by the time more evidence surfaced, the statute of limitations had run out. Noel (talk) 20:32, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Agee was a case officer - and he did not blow the cover of over 80 people that he had been a case officer of. Other people gave (and give) information to Agee, and he was and is simply the conduit for those people.  He has not blown the cover of hundreds of people, he has been the conduit for hundreds of people's cover blown.  As far as Vasili Mitrokhin, when he presented his services to the US, the US believed he was a red herring sent by Soviet intelligence, or perhaps BS'ing them for his own reasons, and told him to buzz off.  So the CIA certainly seems to think what he had to say is garbage.  In other words, your idea that Mitrokhin had real documents is not an opinion shared by the CIA, for one.
 * I'm not really sure what your point is about some NKVD guy saying she was a spy, wouldn't her saying she was a spy mean a lot more than that? And who ever disputed that she had said that?
 * Bentley was not a case officer, she was an American. I do not think the KGB would expose half their American spy network to some flaky Vassar girl.  She walks into a room and says there is "a general discussion among all of us as to the type of information which these people, excepting Abt, would be able to furnish."  I should point out she was coached in her vocabulary as to how to say this.  What does this mean?  A bunch of people sitting around in a room talking about their day at work could be presented as this.  If she acted as a go-fer for Golos, she probably did run into a lot of people in the CP.  But as you said, she had limited information.  The proof from her that Magdoff was a spy is him and his friends were hanging out and he was talking about his day at work.  That seems pretty weak to me.  And what comes from Venona seems to be pretty weak to me as well.  You are taking very, very scant circumstantial evidence and saying it is absolute proof Harry Magdoff was a Soviet spy.  With a lot more evidence to this, if this was a basis for such things, I could prove that the Bush family and Bin Laden family collaborated to make 9/11 happen.  I've read what Bentley said and I don't see anything there except she suspected he (and 80+ other people) were spies.  It should be pointed out that J. Edgar Hoover objected to the use of Bentley, because he thought her stories were so weak that it would make him and the communist-hunters look bad.  You have essentially nothing from her, and nothing from Venona, and you are trying to add 0 and 0 and make it equal 1 - that Magdoff was a spy.  It does not add up. Ruy Lopez 02:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

 * (De-indenting) Well, I have now done what I should have done before - actually looked through some books, rather than try and cite instances from memory. So here we go with some people who did blow over 80 sources (if you are allowed to count agents of their own service, it gets really trivial to rack up really big numbers). I stopped at two, but I'm pretty sure there were more - just don't have time to keep looking for the exact cites.
 * Vladimir Vetrov, aka Farewell, blew "slightly under a hundred case leads involving a slightly greater number of individuals" (Gordon Brook-Shepherd, The Storm Birds: Soviet Post-War Defectors, pp. 321).
 * Stanislav Levchenko blew "the KGB's other local assets" in Japan, "some two hundred assorted Japanese 'assets'" (The Storm Birds, pp. 299-300).
 * As to your reply, I don't know much about Agee, simply remembered that he'd blown a lot of people; I shouldn't have relied on my memory.
 * As for Vasili Mitrokhin, and your ridiculous claim that the CIA certainly seems to think what he had to say is garbage and the idea that Mitrokhin had real documents is not an opinion shared by the CIA:
 * In fact, he was turned away because CIA policy at that time (after the collapse of the Sovet Union) prohibited recruitment of Soviet/Russian intelligence officers, not because the CIA thought his information was "garbage": the CIA's Soviet/East European Division had decided that the KGB was no longer a threat and had instituted a controversial new policy that led CIA officers in the field to turn away many defectors. Paul Redmond, who was then the CIA's deputy chief of counterintelligence, said .. that he sought to take over the Mitrokhin case after other officials had failed to show interest, but by then Mitrokhin had turned to the British. - James Risen, New York Times News Service
 * The FBI called his archive "the most complete and extensive intelligence ever received from any source".
 * Mitrokhin's book is referenced in unclassified studies on the CIA's own website, e,g, here, which I kind of doubt they would do if they thought it was garbage.
 * So I think Mitrokhin's claims to have revealed "thousands of Soviet agents and intelligence officers in all parts of the globe" are fairly sound.
 * Ironically, your "no individual would know so many names" reasoning is an exact echo of the attempted debunking of Mitrokhin by a spokeswoman for the SVR, who said "Hundreds of people! That just doesn't happen! .. Any defector could get the name of one, two, perhaps three agents - but not hundreds!" I got a good chuckle out that one.
 * As far as Bentley goes, and your I do not think the KGB would expose half their American spy network to some flaky Vassar girl comment, I seem to recall (don't have time to track down the citation now; IIRC correctly, it involved using Gold as a courier to both Fuchs and Greenglass) that there was a lot of aggro in the NKVD about tradecraft violations from the network she and Golos headed, so that may be part of the explanation. But as a courier, and a constant companion to the head of the network, it's not too surprising she'd met a lot of sources.
 * And for the 17th time, I did not say that Magdoff was a "spy", I said he was a "source" - they are very different. Noel (talk) 21:28, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Cberlet: Why do we have to keep going over the issue of Elizabeth Bentley's credibility. It is irrelevent to this article. All Bentley did was alert counterintelligence to an investigation, the evidence was gathered outside of her testimony in (1) Venona transcripts (2) Soviet Archives. The reasons for Bentley not testifying, and why Magdoff (et al) were never prosecuted is fully documented. Her credibility matters in none of those issues. You keep reinserting attempts to damage here credibility; what logic or purpose does this serve? that the FBI should not have begun its own investigation because she couldn't be believed, hence all the other evidence is to be ignored? It is purely an extraneous detraction from the issues under discussion, as any good defense attorney would seek to do. Yet it is wholey irrrelevent. If you insist on a path like this, then expect "Kremlin-directed Stalinist mouthpiece" directed at your "skeptics". As the Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy says of Hiss, the issue "seems" settled, so does the ONCIX "confirm" the "accuracy" of Elizabeth Bentley. It is 2005, not 1948 anymore. nobs 18:00, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Harry Magdoff/Archive 1


text:
Antonio Carrillo Flores

Antonio Carrillo Flores (June 23, 1909 – March 20, 1986) was a Mexican statesman, born in Mexico City. He was the second son of composer Julián Carrillo Trujillo, and older brother of Nabor Carrillo, rector of the National University and a distinguished scientist.

Biography
He received his bachelor's degree in 1929 and doctor's degree in 1950 in law from the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM). He formed an early friendship at UNAM with Miguel Alemán Valdés. His activities covered the fields of teaching, law enforcement, public finance and diplomacy.

He is well known for being one of the founding judges (magistrados) of the Federal Fiscal Court in 1937, (Tribunal Fiscal de la Federación) and for being Secretary of Finance (1952-1958), ambassador to both the United States and the Soviet Union, and Secretary of Foreign Affairs (1964-1970).

Carrillo Flores participated in the constitutional amendments during Mexico's nationalization of petroleum in 1938.

He was honored by more than 23 foreign governments, and he was named Doctor Honoris Causa by Lincoln College, Southern Methodist University and Harvard University. He became a member of Mexico's National College, a prestigious honorary academy.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Antonio Carrillo Flores


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Embanet/Temp

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Nufy8 20:51, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Embanet/Temp
Advertising and/or copyright vio. I'm guessing this is a duplicate of already-deleted Embanet page. Bunchofgrapes 15:07, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Ad policy violation DV8 2XL 15:45, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete JeremyJX 14:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Seal of Oregon

The Seal of the State of Oregon is the official seal of the U.S. state of Oregon. It was designed by Harvey Gordon in 1857, two years before Oregon was admitted to the Union. The seal was preceded by the Salmon Seal of the Provisional Government and the Seal of the Oregon Territory. The state seal is mandated by Article VI of the Oregon Constitution.

History
The first seal for Oregon was during the Provisional Government that ran from 1843 to 1849. That government used the Salmon Seal, a round seal featuring three sheaves of grain and a single salmon. The salmon was at the bottom, with Oregon along the top. The salmon was designed to symbolize the fishing industry and the grain to represent agriculture. Designed to be neutral concerning the Oregon Question and whether the U.S. or Britain would ultimately control the region, the seal was used until the Oregon Territory was created and the territorial government arrived in 1849.

With the arrival of Governor Joseph Lane in 1849 the territorial government took control of the region. That year the government adopted a new seal featuring a motto and a variety of motifs. In the center was a sailing vessel used to represent commerce, and above that was a beaver to symbolize the fur trade that was prominent in Oregon's early recorded history. On the left of the ship was a Native American and on the right an eagle. Above the beaver on a banner was the Latin motto, Alis Volat Propriis, translated as "She flies with her own wings". Around the perimeter were five stars at the bottom and the words "Seal of the Territory of Oregon" along the top and sides.

In 1857, the Oregon Constitutional Convention was held in the capital of Salem where the delegates drafted a constitution to prepare for statehood and adopted a new seal to be used once statehood was achieved. The convention appointed Benjamin F. Burch, LaFayette Grover, and James K. Kelly to design a new seal. A proposal for a seal from Harvey Gordon was used with the addition of an elk added by the committee. Usage began after Oregon became the 33rd state on February 14, 1859, and the number of stars was increased to 33 from the original 32 by the Oregon Legislative Assembly (Minnesota became a state in 1858).

Design
Whereas the existence of an Oregon state seal is written into Oregon's state constitution, the design of the seal itself is dictated by Oregon Revised Statute (ORS) chapter 186. The statutes list two laws pertaining to design and usage of the seal.

According to ORS 186.020, the seal consists of an outer ring with the text "State of Oregon", "1859". The inner circle contains an American eagle atop a shield. The shield depicts mountains, an elk, a covered wagon, and the Pacific Ocean. In the ocean, a British man-of-war is departing and an American steamer is arriving, symbolizing the end of British rule in the Oregon Country. The elk represents the plentiful game found in the state. The second quartering shows a sheaf, a plow, and a pickaxe. These symbolize mining and husbandry. The banner is inscribed "The Union". Thirty-three stars surrounding the shield represent the number of states upon Oregon's entry into the union in 1859.

The seal appears on the obverse of the state flag of Oregon.

title: Seal of Oregon


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/KasparovX

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Nufy8 20:50, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

KasparovX
The program appears to be a non-notable chess program. The description, apparently written by the author, is that this is a re-compiled version of another chess program. A google search identified 243 matches, but a quick glance showed that they appeared to be mostly BBS posts by the author himself. Notability has not been established. C HAIRBOY 15:07, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Delete per above - C HAIRBOY 15:07, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete NN DV8 2XL 15:11, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per nominator. There are a couple dozen notable computer chess engines.  This isn't one of them. Quale 18:25, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete JeremyJX 14:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Ancient Egyptian medicine

The medicine of the ancient Egyptians is some of the oldest documented. From the beginnings of the civilization in the late fourth millennium BC until the Persian invasion of 525 BC, Egyptian medical practice went largely unchanged and included simple non-invasive surgery, setting of bones, dentistry, and an extensive set of pharmacopoeia. Egyptian medical thought influenced later traditions, including the Greeks.

Sources of information
Until the 19th century, the main sources of information about ancient Egyptian medicine were writings from later in antiquity. The Greek historian Herodotus visited Egypt around 440 BC and wrote extensively of his observations of their medicinal practice. Pliny the Elder also wrote favorably of them in historical review. Hippocrates (the "father of medicine"), Herophilos, Erasistratus and later Galen studied at the temple of Amenhotep, and acknowledged the contribution of ancient Egyptian medicine to Greek medicine.

In 1822, the translation of the Rosetta Stone finally allowed the translation of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic inscriptions and papyri, including many related to medical matters (Egyptian medical papyri). The resultant interest in Egyptology in the 19th century led to the discovery of several sets of extensive ancient medical documents, including the Ebers papyrus, the Edwin Smith Papyrus, the Hearst Papyrus, the London Medical Papyrus and others dating back as far as 2900 BC.

The Edwin Smith Papyrus is a textbook on surgery and details anatomical observations and the "examination, diagnosis, treatment, and prognosis" of numerous ailments. It was probably written around 1600 BC, but is regarded as a copy of several earlier texts. Medical information in it dates from as early as 3000 BC. It is thus viewed as a learning manual. Treatments consisted of ointments made from animal, vegetable or fruit substances or minerals. There is evidence of oral surgery being performed as early as the 4th Dynasty (2900–2750 BC).

The Ebers papyrus (c. 1550 BC) includes 877 prescriptions – as categorized by a modern editor – for a variety of ailments and illnesses, some of them involving magical remedies, for Egyptian beliefs regarding magic and medicine were often intertwined. It also contains documentation revealing awareness of tumors, along with instructions on tumor removal.

The Kahun Gynaecological Papyrus treats women's complaints, including problems with conception. Thirty four cases detailing diagnosis and treatment survive, some of them fragmentarily. Dating to 1800 BC, it is the oldest surviving medical text of any kind.

Other documents such as the Hearst papyrus (1450 BC), and Berlin Papyrus (1200 BC) also provide valuable insight into ancient Egyptian medicine.

Other information comes from the images that often adorn the walls of Egyptian tombs and the translation of the accompanying inscriptions. Advances in modern medical technology also contributed to the understanding of ancient Egyptian medicine. Paleopathologists were able to use X-rays and later CAT Scans to view the bones and organs of mummies. Electron microscopes, mass spectrometry and various forensic techniques allowed scientists unique glimpses of the state of health in Egypt 4000 years ago.

Nutrition
The ancient Egyptians were at least partially aware of the importance of diet, both in balance and moderation. Owing to Egypt's great endowment of fertile land, food production was never a major issue, although, no matter how bountiful the land, paupers and starvation still exist. The main crops for most of ancient Egyptian history were emmer wheat and barley. Consumed in the form of loaves which were produced in a variety of types through baking and fermentation, with yeast greatly enriching the nutritional value of the product, one farmer's crop could support an estimated twenty adults. Barley was also used in beer. Vegetables and fruits of many types were widely grown. Oil was produced from the linseed plant and there was a limited selection of spices and herbs. Meat (sheep, goats, pigs, wild game) was regularly available to at least the upper classes and fish were widely consumed, although there is evidence of prohibitions during certain periods against certain types of animal products; Herodotus wrote of the pig as being 'unclean'. Offerings to King Unas (c. 2494–2345 BC) were recorded as "...milk, three kinds of beer, five kinds of wine, ten loaves, four of bread, ten of cakes, four meats, different cuts, joints, roast, spleen, limb, breast, quail, goose, pigeon, figs, ten other fruits, three kinds of corn, barley, spelt, five kinds of oil, and fresh plants..."

It is clear that the Egyptian diet was not lacking for the upper classes and that even the lower classes may have had some selection (Nunn, 2002).

Pharmacology
Like many civilizations in the past, the ancient Egyptians amply discovered the medicinal properties of plant life around them. The Edwin Smith Papyrus contains many recipes to help heal different ailments. One short section of the papyrus lays out five recipes: one dealing with problems women may have had, three on techniques for refining the complexion, and the fifth recipe for ailments of the colon. The ancient Egyptians were known to use honey as medicine, and the juices of pomegranates served as both an astringent and a delicacy. In the Ebers Papyrus, there are over 800 remedies; some were topical-like ointments and wrappings, others were oral medication such as pills and mouth rinses; still others were taken through inhalation. The recipes to cure constipation consisted of berries from the castor oil tree, Male Palm, and Gengent beans, just to name a few. One recipe that was to help headaches called for "inner-of-onion, fruit-of-the-am-tree, natron, setseft-seeds, bone-of-the-sword-fish, cooked, redfish, cooked, skull-of-crayfish, cooked, honey, and abra-ointment." Some of the recommended treatments made use of cannabis and incense. "Egyptian medicinal use of plants in antiquity is known to be extensive, with some 160 distinct plant products..." Amidst the many plant extracts and fruits, the Egyptians also used animal feces and even some metals as treatments. These prescriptions of antiquity were measured out by volume, not weight, which makes their prescription-making craft more like cooking than what pharmacists do today. While their treatments and herbal remedies seem almost boundless, they still included incantations along with some therapeutic remedies.

Egyptian drug therapy is considered ineffective by today's standards according to Michael D. Parkins, who says that 28% of 260 medical prescriptions in the Hearst Papyrus had ingredients which can be perceived "to have had activity towards the condition being treated" and another third supplied to any given disorder would produce a purgative effect on the gastrointestinal system.

Practices

Egyptians had some knowledge of human anatomy. For example, in the classic mummification process, mummifiers knew how to insert a long hooked implement through a nostril, breaking the thin bone of the braincase and removing the brain, but more commonly created a hole in the back of the head so that the brain and other fluids could drain from the foramen magnum. They also had a general idea that inner organs are in the body cavity. They removed the organs through a small incision in the left groin. Whether this knowledge was passed down to the practitioners is unknown; yet it did not seem to have had any impact on their medical theories.

Egyptian physicians were aware of the existence of the pulse and its connection to the heart. The author of the Smith Papyrus even had a vague idea of the cardiac system. However, he did not know about blood circulation and deemed it unimportant to distinguish between blood vessels, tendons, and nerves. They developed their theory of "channels" that carried air, water, and blood to the body by analogies with the River Nile; if it became blocked, crops became unhealthy. They applied this principle to the body: If a person was unwell, they would use laxatives to unblock the "channels".

The oldest written text mentioning enemas is the Ebers Papyrus and many medications were administered using enemas. One of the many types of medical specialists was an Iri, the Shepherd of the Anus.

Many of their medical practices were effective, such as the surgical procedures given in the Edwin Smith papyrus. Mostly, the physicians' advice for staying healthy was to wash and shave the body, including under the arms, to prevent infections. They also advised patients to look after their diet, and avoid foods such as raw fish or other animals considered to be unclean.

Surgery
The oldest metal (Bronze or copper ) surgical tools in the world were discovered in the tomb of Qar. Surgery was a common practice among physicians as treatment for physical injuries. The Egyptian physicians recognized three categories of injuries; treatable, contestable, and untreatable ailments. Treatable ailments the surgeons would quickly set to right. Contestable ailments were those where the victim could presumably survive without treatment, so patients assumed to be in this category were observed and if they survived then surgical attempts could be made to fix the problem with them. They used knives, hooks, drills, forceps, pincers, scales, spoons, saws and a vase with burning incense.

Circumcision of males was the normal practice, as stated by Herodotus in his Histories. Though its performance as a procedure was rarely mentioned, the uncircumcised nature of other cultures was frequently noted, the uncircumcised nature of the Libyans was frequently referenced and military campaigns brought back uncircumcised phalli as trophies, which suggests novelty. However, other records describe initiates into the religious orders as involving circumcision which would imply that the practice was special and not widespread. The only known depiction of the procedure, in The Tomb of the Physician, burial place of Ankh-Mahor at Saqqara, shows adolescents or adults, not babies. Female circumcision may have been practiced, although the single reference to it in ancient texts may be a mistranslation.

Prosthetics, such as artificial toes and eyeballs, were also used; typically, they served little more than decorative purposes. In preparation for burial, missing body parts would be replaced; however, these do not appear as if they would have been useful, or even attachable, before death.

The extensive use of surgery, mummification practices, and autopsy as a religious exercise gave Egyptians a vast knowledge of the body's morphology, and even a considerable understanding of organ functions. The function of most major organs was correctly presumed—for example, blood was correctly guessed to be a transpiration medium for vitality and waste which is not too far from its actual role in carrying oxygen and removing carbon dioxide—with the exception of the heart and brain whose functions were switched.

Dentistry
Dentistry as an independent profession dated from the early 3rd millennium BC, although it may never have been prominent. The Egyptian diet was high in abrasives from sand left over from grinding grain and bits of rocks in which the way bread was prepared, and so the condition of their teeth was poor. Archaeologists have noted a steady decrease in severity and incidence of worn teeth throughout 4000 BC to 1000 AD, probably due to improved grain grinding techniques. All Egyptian remains have sets of teeth in quite poor states. Dental disease could even be fatal, such as for Djedmaatesankh, a musician from Thebes, who died around the age of thirty five from extensive dental disease and a large infected cyst. If an individual's teeth escaped being worn down, cavities were rare, due to the rarity of sweeteners. Dental treatment was ineffective and the best sufferers could hope for was the quick loss of an infected tooth. The Instruction of Ankhsheshonq contains the maxim "There is no tooth that rots yet stays in place". No records document the hastening of this process and no tools suited for the extraction of teeth have been found, though some remains show sign of forced tooth removal. Replacement teeth have been found, although it is not clear whether they are just post-mortem cosmetics. Extreme pain might have been medicated with opium.

Doctors and other healers
The ancient Egyptian word for doctor is "swnw". This title has a long history. The earliest recorded physician in the world, Hesy-Ra, practiced in ancient Egypt. He was "Chief of Dentists and Physicians" to King Djoser, who ruled in the 27th century BC. The lady Peseshet (2400 BC) may be the first recorded female doctor: she was possibly the mother of Akhethotep, and on a stela dedicated to her in his tomb she is referred to as imy-r swnwt, which has been translated as "Lady Overseer of the Lady Physicians" (swnwt is the feminine of swnw).

There were many ranks and specializations in the field of medicine. Royalty employed their own swnw, even their own specialists. There were inspectors of doctors, overseers and chief doctors. Known ancient Egyptian specialists are ophthalmologist, gastroenterologist, proctologist, dentist, "doctor who supervises butchers" and an unspecified "inspector of liquids". The ancient Egyptian term for proctologist, neru phuyt, literally translates as "shepherd of the anus". The latter title is already attested around 2200 BC by Irynachet.

Institutions, called (Per Ankh) or Houses of Life, are known to have been established in ancient Egypt since the 1st Dynasty and may have had medical functions, being at times associated in inscriptions with physicians, such as Peftauawyneit and Wedjahorresnet living in the middle of the 1st millennium BC. By the time of the 19th Dynasty their employees enjoyed such benefits as medical insurance, pensions and sick leave.

title: Ancient Egyptian medicine


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Talk:Palace Theatre, Westcliff-on-Sea

[Untitled]
Image:Mainhouse jpg.jpg is a photo taken by me no copyright free to use by all.

Chris

Factual error: Henry Irving could not have appeared at the theatre between the wars: he died in 1905.

Kintak

Unnecessary editing of the links
Hi- I was the one that added the original content from our site "Palace Theatre CrewCall" way back in time.So why is it that some editor feel the need to remove the links I have added to our site? see: http://web.archive.org/web/20030203180419/http://teaup.port5.com/ which is where we had the site hosted before we acquired the domains that we use.So can we please put a stop to this unnecessary editing of the links to our GALLERY and site.

Chris Joker7 (talk) 13:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Joker7 (talk • contribs) 12:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The domain in question is implicated in spamming of Wikipedia Please do not simply replace these links without any discussion. Caomhin (talk) 21:05, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Please see linkThis domain is not implicated in spamming of Wikipedia! So can we please leave thing as and stop remove links!

Chris Joker7 (talk) 13:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Responded on that page. Caomhin (talk) 21:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Palace Theatre, Westcliff-on-Sea


text: User talk:194.203.97.41

title: User talk:194.203.97.41


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User talk:Justsayinwords

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, please be sure to sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~) to produce your name and the current date, or three tildes (~~~) for just your name. If you have any questions, you can post to the help desk or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! EdwinHJ | Talk 15:11, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
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title: User talk:Justsayinwords


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Landrieu family

The family name Landrieu is a prominent name in the politics of the state of Louisiana, and may refer to:

 * Moon Landrieu (1930-2022), former mayor of New Orleans, United States Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, and Louisiana judge
 * Mary Landrieu (born 1955), daughter of Moon Landrieu and former United States Senator from Louisiana, state treasurer, and state legislator
 * Mitch Landrieu (born 1960), son of Moon Landrieu and Senior Advisor to the President for Infrastructure Coordination, former mayor of New Orleans, lieutenant governor, and state legislator
 * Madeleine Landrieu, daughter of Moon Landrieu and former Louisiana judge.

History
The family is reported to be of French and German descent and coming from Alsace and Prussia. Before moving to Louisiana the Landrieu family lived in Mississippi in the 1800s.

Moon's wife is Sicilian American. For this reason, their daughter Mary Landrieu has been repeatedly highlighted by the Order of the Sons of Italy in America

The Landrieu family, has sometimes faced rumors that the family has partial Black heritage. Mitch Landrieu eventually addressed these claims. "To suggest that you can care about the rights and plight of Black Americans only if you are Black or have Black blood is insidious. And it is rooted in racism. The question says more about the people who ask the question than those who would have to answer. The truth is I do have Black ancestry on my father's side of the family. My great, great grandmother was an African American who was enslaved in Mississippi."

Government Offices held

 * Moon Landrieu: Louisiana State Representative 1960-1966, Mayor of New Orleans 1970-1978, United States Secretary of Housing and Urban Development.
 * Mary Landrieu: Louisiana House of Representatives 1980-1988, Treasurer of Louisiana 1988-1996, United States Senator from Louisiana 1997-2015.
 * Mitch Landrieu: Louisiana House of Representatives 1988-2004, Lieutenant Governor of Louisiana 2004-2010, Mayor of New Orleans 2010-2018, Senior Advisor to the President for Infrastructure Coordination 2021–present.

title: Landrieu family


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Vusamazulu Credo Mutwa

Vusamazulu Credo Mutwa (21 July 1921 – 25 March 2020) was a Zulu sangoma (traditional healer) from South Africa. He was known as an author of books that draw upon African mythology, traditional Zulu folklore, extraterrestrial encounters and his own personal encounters. His last work was a graphic novel called the Tree of Life Trilogy based on his writings of his most famous book, Indaba my Children. In 2018 he was honoured with an USIBA award presented by the South African Department of Arts and Culture, for his work in indigenous wisdom.

Credo was a sanusi (common spelling isanuse) which is a type of Zulu diviner or sangoma. The term stems from a more historic time and is not widely used today, even in a traditional setting.

Credo lived with his wife Virginia in Kuruman, where they ran a hospice clinic.

Early life
His father was a widower with three surviving children when he met his mother. His father was a builder and a Christian and his mother was a young Zulu girl. Caught between Catholic missionaries on one hand, and a stubborn old Zulu warrior, Credo Mutwa's maternal grandfather, his parents had no choice but to separate. Credo was born out of wedlock, which caused a great scandal in the village and his mother was thrown out by her father. Later he was taken in by one of his aunts.

He was subsequently raised by his father's brother and was taken to the South Coast of Natal (present day KwaZulu-Natal), near the northern bank of the Mkomazi River. He did not attend school until he was 14 years old. In 1935 his father found a building job in the old Transvaal province and the whole family relocated to where he was building.

After falling severely ill, he was taken back to KwaZulu-Natal by his uncle. Where modern medicine had failed, his grandfather, a man whom his father despised as a heathen and demon worshipper, helped him back to health. At this point, Credo began to question many of the things about his people the missionaries would have them believe. "Were we Africans really a race of primitives who possessed no knowledge at all before the white man came to Africa?" he asked himself. His grandfather instilled in him the belief that his illness was a sacred calling that he was to become a sangoma, a healer. He underwent thwasa (sangoma training and initiation) with his grandfather and mother's sister, a young sangoma named Mynah.

Kwa-Khaya Lendaba cultural village
In 1974, Credo obtained a piece of land on the Oppenheimer gardens in Soweto in order to create an African cultural village to preserve cultural heritage and his own teachings. He created traditional dwellings imaginatively representing building patterns from across Africa, while human and mythological figures brought to life African folk-lore, beliefs and traditions as seen through his artistic vision. At the time, as the locals were steeped in Christianity, they were suspicious of the cultural village.

Credo believed that the great unrest in Johannesburg and the popularisation of communism in the black struggle drew Africans away from their traditional roots. Unlike most political activists, he actually supported a separation between white and black in order to preserve black traditional tribal customs and way of life. In 1976, students partially burnt down the cultural village after he was misquoted on Afrikaans radio, as they saw the village promoting tribalism and separate development. Parts of the village was burnt again in the mid-1980s during a strike against the West Rand city council. Following the murder of his son by black political "activists" and the second burning of his village, Credo moved away from Soweto and developed a cultural tourist village in Lotlamoreng, Mahikeng, (known at that time as Bophuthatswana). Here he supervised the building of small cultural villages, each representing the traditional cultures of the main South African tribal peoples.

The Kwa-Khaya Lendaba cultural village in Soweto is currently being restored and is still open to the public free of charge. Tour guides are available from the caretaker of the village.

Prophetic Sculptures
Although many of the sculptures at Kwa-Khaya Lendaba were unfamiliar to the Africans they were meant to represent, a number of them have been said to be prophetic in nature. Most notably, were claims of predicting the coming of HIV/AIDS to South Africa. This was seen in his fictional sculptures of King Khandakhulu, who had 200 wives. He couldn't satisfy them all sexually, and so they went out and satisfied themselves elsewhere, which led to them all contracting incurable sexually transmitted infections. The sores on King Khandakhulu's penis resemble the AIDS ribbon. These sculptures were created in 1979, three years before scientists uncovered the human immunodeficiency virus. Claims of his other predictions include the destruction of World Trade Centres in the September 11 attacks, Chris Hani's assassination, and the ousting of president Thabo Mbeki, among others.

Views on HIV/AIDS
Mutwa was an active and vocal advocate in the use of traditional African medicines for the treatment of HIV/AIDS, cancer and tuberculosis. He created a trust called the Vulinda Trust in 1999 to preserve traditional knowledge and to promote the use of these traditional medicines. The primary focus of his research had been on a South African plant called unwele in Zulu (Sutherlandia frutescens). Unwele is traditionally used as a wellbeing tonic, and has also demonstrated anticancer activity through in vitro studies. Research of the efficacy of Sutherlandia frutescens in the treatment of HIV/AIDS is ongoing and phase IIb trials are being conducted at the South African Herbal Science and Medicine Institute (SAHSMI).

"Reptilian agenda"
David Icke aligned himself with Mutwa's theory of a "reptilian agenda" – i.e. that "a reptilian race" evolved on earth and not of alien origin, has controlled the world for thousands of years". He made reference to their earthly origins on video in an Icke interview.

Support for apartheid
Mutwa is recorded as having made statements in support of apartheid. One of his books - My People: The Incredible Writings of a Zulu witch-doctor ISBN 014003210X - contains such statements, primarily referring to practices amongst the Zulu that, in his eyes, justified the implementation of that system.

title: Vusamazulu Credo Mutwa


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Palnackie

Palnackie is a village in the parish of Buittle in the historical county of Kirkcudbrightshire in Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland. It has a population of approximately 250 and is a working port on the Urr Water.

Palnackie is home to the Grande Internationale World Flounder Tramping Championships.

title: Palnackie


text: User talk:202.154.86.178

title: User talk:202.154.86.178


text:
The Nightwatchman

The Nightwatchman is the solo project of American musician Tom Morello (Rage Against the Machine, Street Sweeper Social Club and former Audioslave). Morello began performing as the Nightwatchman in 2003 as an outlet for his political views while he was playing apolitical music with Audioslave.

Early career
Morello created the identity of the Nightwatchman, inspired by Bruce Springsteen's The Ghost of Tom Joad album, when a desire to return to political activism in his music struck him in 2003, after over a year of playing non-activist rock in Audioslave. Morello describes the Nightwatchman as "the black Robin Hood of 21st century music" and "a reaction against illicit wars, a reaction against first strikes, torture, secret prisons, spying illegally on American citizens. It's a reaction against war crimes, and it's a reaction against a few corporations that grow rich [off] this illicit war while people beg for food in the city streets." He later elaborated that the format was inspired by long-time social and political activist/musician Billy Bragg. Morello first saw him performing at a concert c. 1994, playing "fearlessly" before a crowd of 8,000 people in a tent alongside big-name rock bands of the time. The Nightwatchman first began playing political acoustic folk music in a Los Angeles coffeehouse before a small crowd, and soon after went on Billy Bragg's Tell Us the Truth Tour.

"The Nightwatchman is my political folk alter ego. I've been writing these songs and playing them at open mic nights with friends for some time. This is the first time I've toured with it. When I play open mic nights, I'm announced as the Nightwatchman. There will be kids there who are fans of my electric guitar playing, and you see them there scratching their heads."

The Tell Us the Truth Tour was supported by unions, environmental and media reform groups including Common Cause, Free Press and A.F.L.-C.I.O. with the ultimate goal of "informing music fans, and exposing and challenging the failures of the major media outlets in the United States." His Nightwatchman persona has been compared to Woody Guthrie, Bruce Springsteen and Bob Dylan. He initially had no plans to record, but later recorded the song "No One Left" for Songs and Artists that Inspired Fahrenheit 9/11. At the Festival of Bonnaroo in 2007, the Nightwatchman performed Rage Against the Machine song "Guerrilla Radio" to protest George W. Bush.

One Man Revolution
In February 2007, he announced a solo album, One Man Revolution, which was released on April 24, 2007, in the US and May 7 worldwide. The Nightwatchman's first headlining gig was played June 17, 2007, at the House of Blues in Dallas, Texas. Morello has toured since the CD was released and said he plans to tour the U.S. again in the fall. After seeing an early screening of the Michael Moore film Sicko Morello wrote the song, "Alone Without You" which featured in closing credits of the film and also with a music video directed by Moore in the DVD release. The song was also made available as an iTunes bonus track for One Man Revolution. Morello toured in support of the album as the opening act for Ben Harper During this tour, Morello joined Harper onstage on several occasions for a cover of Bob Dylan's "Masters of War", on which he plays the electric guitar in the style for which he's best known. Other prominent musicians who Morello shared the stage with during the One Man Revolution tour includes, Serj Tankian, Perry Farrell, Jon Foreman from Switchfoot, Shooter Jennings, Nuno Bettencourt, Sen Dog from Cypress Hill, Jill Sobule, Boots Riley, Alexi Murdoch, Wayne Kramer from MC5, Slash and many others.

The Fabled City
The album The Fabled City was released on September 30, 2008. Two songs off the record, "Midnight in the City of Destruction" (about New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina) and "King of Hell" (written about Guantanamo Bay detention camp), had previously been leaked on the Nightwatchman MySpace or performed during live sets.

"The template is half Dylan and half Hendrix. It's going to be half acoustic and half electric. Not only will there be the no sell-out, acoustic, three chords and the truth part of the show, but also, with the band I put together called the Freedom Fighter Orchestra, there will be more insane electric playing than I've ever done with Rage or Audioslave because it's not confined to a three-and-a-half-minute song"

So far The Satellite Party's Carl Restivo has been confirmed to be part of The Freedom Fighters as a second guitarist. To promote the new album Morello and the band appeared both on The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson and on Late Night with Conan O'Brien before heading out on The Fabled City Tour, an eighteen stop tour in the United States.

World Wide Rebel Songs
To support the many unions affected by the anti-negotiation/bargaining laws due to the 2011 Wisconsin budget protests, Morello performed outside the Madison Capitol building on February 21, 2011, to rousing support. He also teamed up with fellow rock musician Wayne Kramer in support of the protesters performing the title song of his upcoming album, World Wide Rebel Songs. Kramer appears on said song on the album, performing backing vocals.

On the Nightwatchman website, it was announced that Morello has signed with the label New West Records to release his third album as the Nightwatchman, World Wide Rebel Songs, on August 30, 2011. Before the release of the album, Morello released an EP entitled Union Town on May 17, 2011. All proceeds of the EP sales will go to benefit The America Votes Labor Unity Fund. In October 2011 and on May Day 2012, Morello performed in support of the protesters at Occupy LA and Occupy Wall Street.

The Freedom Fighters Orchestra

 * Current members
 * Tom Morello – lead vocals, electric and acoustic guitar (2003–present)
 * Carl Restivo – electric guitar, backing vocals (2008–present)
 * Eric Gardner – drums, backing vocals (2011–present)
 * Dave Gibbs – bass guitar, backing vocals (2008–present)

 * Former members
 * Breckin Meyer – drums, percussion, backing vocals (2008–2011)

 * Additional members

 * Flea – bass at The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson (2008)

 * Robbie Seahag Mangano – bass, backing vocals (selected performances August 2011 to September 2012, bass and guitar on "Blind Willie McTell")

title: The Nightwatchman


text:
WCW/nWo Thunder

WCW/nWo Thunder is a professional wrestling video game based on the professional wrestling television show of the same name and released on the PlayStation console by THQ in January 1999. Thunder is the sequel to WCW Nitro and updates the previous game with new characters and features, including cage matches, battle royals, weapon use, and the ability to select what stable each wrestler competed for (this included WCW, nWo Hollywood, nWo Wolfpac, Raven's Flock, and The Four Horsemen). However, Thunder received poor reviews. Many of these were due to its graphics, style, and overall atmosphere, which bore too many similarities to WCW Nitro, along with concerns that the game was too easy.

New versions of the game's predecessor Nitro were released for Microsoft Windows (in December 1998 shortly before Thunders release) and Nintendo 64 (in February 1999 shortly after Thunders release). Both versions featured the updated roster from Thunder.

Reception
Next Generation gave the game three stars out of five. They commented that while the improvements made in Thunder are incremental and not "spectacular", they felt the game to be a worthy upgrade from the previous title Nitro.

WCW/nWo Thunder received "mixed" reviews according to the review aggregation website GameRankings. Most very mixed points were given to the poor graphics, and difficulty of the controls. Despite the mediocre reviews given, the game went on to sell 1 million copies.

title: WCW/nWo Thunder


text:
Talk:Tin Planet

Fair use rationale for Image:Tin-Planet.JPG
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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 08:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tin Planet