text:
Talk:Gus Grissom

Notes to work on

 * Betty Grissom's thoughts on the investigation being a sham should be included, even if they are not correct, it is significant
 * Slayton was probably going to select Grissom to be the first on the Moon (Fallen Astronauts page 87)
 * Betty sued NAA (and it was settled out of court) link
 * Figure out how this relates to the star in the article link
 * Moon and Mars citations link another link, asteroid
 * Grissom's Limestone Memorial
 * Molly Brown transferred to Grissom Museum in Mitchell
 * opening of AFB museum, another article of it
 * Another source
 * Liberty Bell 7, after being raised
 * Dedication of memorial
 * Date of Bunker Hill AFB renaming

More to come, will be working on these.  Kees08  (Talk)   01:08, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Grissom as First Man: Slayton's story is not supported by his actions
From 'Notes to work on', above:
 * "Slayton was probably going to select Grissom to be the first on the Moon (Fallen Astronauts page 87)"

This is an often repeated story, having been published by Michael Cassutt in his book Deke! (1994). A diligent author who strives for historical accuracy will not simply interview a person, and then publish their words presented as fact. Ok, it is clear that it is a fact that Slayton said it. But it is the job of a historian to seek supporting evidence that words like that are telling an accurate story before presenting such info as truth. A solid follow up to a statement by Slayton saying that his plan was to assign Grissom as the first to attempt the landing on the Moon would be to confirm with Slayton that Grissom was being given training prerequisites to qualify him for this mission.

And here is where we find that this story lacks supporting evidence. We know what the requirements for flying the lunar landing mission were. One requirement Deke imposed on these crews was that they had experience flying an orbital rendezvous. The entire purpose of the Gemini program was to ensure that astronauts knew how to fly a rendezvous and docking, essential for the Earth Orbit Rendezvous [CORRECTION: I meant Lunar Orbit Rendezvous] mode to be used in Apollo.

 * - Grissom had no rendezvous experience. He was assigned to fly the first Gemini, and then the first Apollo.  Neither of these were a rendezvous mission, with no separate Agena target to connect with.

Another critical requirement to fly the lunar landing mission was being fully trained on the Lunar Lander Training Vehicle (LLTV). In order to get fully trained, this was a lengthy process of completing training in the Lunar Landing Research Facility, the gantry contraption at Langley. Then there was helicopter training. And then there was checkout in the LLTV fixed-base simulator, and then flying the LLTV in fixed-gimbal mode, and finally a full certification in flying the LLTV in lunar-simulation mode.

 * - 6 astronauts were in the first class to be selected for this LLTV training. Grissom was not among the six.  (The six were Borman-Anders, Armstrong-Aldrin and Conrad-Williams.)

The fact that Grissom was not chosen by Slayton for LLTV training has been posted to the internet since 2001 (here). And that link has been available on the Wikipedia article on the LLTV for well over a decade, since 2008.

The fact that Grissom was never assigned to a rendezvous mission has been widely known since the 60s.

Anyone who had access to Deke Slayton could have asked him these simple questions as a way to provide tangible support to his words. Actions speak much louder than words. And if Deke did indeed intend to assign Grissom on the first landing mission, as he had stated according to Michael Cassutt, then he would have a lot of 'splaining to do as to why he failed to give Grissom the necessary training. The only options Slayton would have would be to send Grissom up on that mission unqualified to do the task at hand, or delay the program for months so that Grissom could catch up to these other astronauts who Slayton had picked to get the necessary qualifications.

If Slayton's words were sincere, then this leaves a huge question mark as to why he would paint himself into such a tight corner regarding his choices for who would graduate from Gemini with the necessary rendezvous experience, and also who would get trained in the LLTV. But seeing the hard facts that Slayton did not groom Grissom with the necessary training, then the evidence points to Slayton having groomed people like Armstrong, Conrad and Borman to be on the short list of those who would be fully qualified when the time came to attempt the first landing.

An alternate explanation is what is known as 'eulogizing'. Slayton was saying nice things about his friend who had died.

James Donovan is another author who did not thoroughly look into this story before presenting it as fact. He has repeated this story of how Slayton said he intended to give Grissom the first shot at landing. His new book has recently been published, and so the news headlines today include articles like this:

 * The man who should have taken first step on Moon – and it’s not Buzz Aldrin
 * Quote:
 * "He stated during his new book “Shoot for the Moon” that Gus Grissom should have commanded Apollo 11."

Had Donovan looked into the evidence for this, he could easily have seen that Slayton's words were not backed up by his actions. And Cassutt, who published his book in 1994, one year after Slayton died, had all of the Gemini rendezvous info widely available to him.

It is not sufficient for Wikipedia editors to find something that has been published in a book, and then cite that to present it in one of our articles as fact, which the vast majority of readers will accept without scrutinizing the info. For us to do a thorough job, various sources must be examined, so that the references which present info which makes sense can be incorporated into our articles. And for the info that fails to stand up to a basic cross-referencing of info that is available in sources, we either discard it, or at least flag it.

Again, from the preceding section:
 * "Slayton was probably going to select Grissom to be the first on the Moon (Fallen Astronauts page 87)"

We have had a wealth of basic facts which have been available to us for a very long time which show Slayton's actions to be contrary to his words. -- Tdadamemd19 (talk) 04:23, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

 * Remember Alan Shepard? He came back from having an ear operation that restored his flight status and claimed the next available Apollo mission (13, later postponed to 14) without serving on a backup crew or any rendezvous experience because... well, he was one of thge Mercury Seven.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:40, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

 * Alan Shepard was the fifth person to step foot onto the Moon. The issue being discussed in this section is the notion of who was going to be first, and whether or not the story that Grissom was being prepared for that role stands up to scrutiny.  Here is a pertinent quote from what I had posted here (underlined for emphasis):

 * " The only options Slayton would have would be to send Grissom up on that mission unqualified to do the task at hand, or delay the program for months so that Grissom could catch up to these other astronauts who Slayton had picked to get the necessary qualifications ."

 * No one here has asserted that it would have been impossible for Grissom to be trained to fly the first landing mission. The point was that Slayton had several other astronauts who he had gotten into a much better position to do this.  And if anyone, for whatever reason, had wanted Grissom to fly that first landing attempt, then it would have meant a long delay in the program.

 * That same assessment applies to Shepard, or any other astronaut in the program. It is important to note that Shepard did not step foot on the Moon until one and a half YEARS after the first landing mission had been accomplished.  Any astronaut at NASA could have been sufficiently trained to fly a landing mission given one and a half years of catch up training.  It is important to note, given your example, that Shepard had originally been slated to fly Apollo 13, and the reason why he got switched to Apollo 14 is for this very same reason I have been highlighting:

 * There was not sufficient time to get Shepard fully qualified.

 * So I suggest to you that Al Shepard is actually a PERFECT case study to support the points that have been made here regarding Grissom. Al did not have sufficient time to get up to speed to fly Apollo 13.  And that fact underscores how Grissom could not have gotten up to speed in time to fly Apollo 11.  Certainly not by July 1969.  And by the time that Al launched in January of 1971, rendezvous in lunar orbit was no longer an unknown.  It had been accomplished on three previous missions.  There is no evidence that Slayton was willing to send anyone with no rendezvous experience to fly the first attempt of docking in the LM at the Moon.  Slayton did not do this for the first, second, third or even the fourth effort to do a lunar orbit rendezvous.  Shepard's mission was the fifth.  His example does nothing to support the argument that Grissom was being groomed to fly the first landing attempt.  At least, not in any way that I can see. -- Tdadamemd19 (talk) 16:00, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

 * The fact remains, we are still bound by our policy of WP:Reliable sources. We cannot use WP:Original research, no matter how well-reasoned it seems. Alternate history is always a speculative business. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:30, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

 * It appears that you are misunderstanding the purpose of why this section was created. Another possibility is that it is the WP:OR policy which is being misunderstood.
 * This section was not started as some push to have a bunch of new info added to the article which shows that Slayton clearly was not preparing Grissom to be that First Man. My effort here has been to curtain garbage from being included in the article.  Info that does not stand up to the reliable sources which we have available.

 * There is no question that Grissom never got any rendezvous experience. And that Apollo 1 was not a rendezvous mission.  There is no OR issue regarding this simple fact.  And more importantly, WP:OR is not a policy which places prohibitions against removing statements which present clearly bogus info.

 * We are in agreement in what you say about alternate history. And there is even more reason for an encyclopedia to purge itself of speculative info when such supposition has been exposed as being fully unfounded.  It might help here to highlight the exact statement in the article which this section pertains to.

 * Quote from Death and legacy:
 * "Some contend that Grissom could have been selected as one of the astronauts to walk on the Moon. 'Deke' Slayton wrote that he had hoped for one of the original Mercury astronauts to go to the Moon, noting: 'It wasn't just a cut-and-dried decision as to who should make the first steps on the Moon. If I had to select on that basis, my first choice would have been Gus, which both Chris Kraft and Bob Gilruth seconded.'"

 * The support presented for that statement is Deke! by Mike Cassutt, page 223.
 * Then in the preceding section, we see another editor who appears to want to expand upon this, and here the reference being presented is Fallen Astronauts, page 87. I have communicated with Colin Burgess, the author of that book, and my understanding is that he never spoke to Slayton.  That his story is basically a repeat of what Cassutt had published.
 * And earlier in this current section, I cited yet another book which just came out and yet again repeats this same story.

 * What we have here is a positive feedback loop where one author failed to do his due diligence and published this story which has a nice warm feeling to it. There certainly is an original research problem, and that is Mike Cassutt's original research which he published in his book.

 * There is no prohibition in Wikipedia Policy against OR which would prevent bogus statements from being removed.

 * Furthermore, no edit has been done to the section of the article in question. I have not done any.  And in this section here, no one has yet proposed any.  So I am left scratching my head as to what exactly you are objecting to.  WP:OR certainly does not prohibit removal of a statement which one author decided to publish without thoroughly vetting it first. -- Tdadamemd19 (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry to waste your time, but that is just a short list of possible things to include the article or at least research further. I find a lot of information whilst looking for other information, and it seems like a waste if I put it in a document on my personal computer. The 'notes to work on' section title is accurate as to what its contents is. Feel free to ping me next time if you have anything else you need to discuss.  Kees08  (Talk)   01:39, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

 * No sweat about use of my time.
 * Ideally, info presented here will prove to be sufficient toward keeping bogus stories from promulgating.
 * Imagine if there had been a critical mass of people who had been able to nip the Moon Hoax Theories in the bud.
 * So if these Gus First Theories can be kept in check with a solid application of pertinent facts, then I would certainly see this investment in our time to be well spent.

 * Some of you all may have seen that beyond the several books that have been highlighted here, there are news outlets who have run with this story. It is clear that there are plenty of people who get paid as professionals in the news business who don't care about checking their facts before publishing them.  Here are recent articles which have made some of the most brashly unfounded claims:

 * "Man who would have been first to walk on moon honored in Indiana hometown"
 * (cached article) (orig paywall link, c-j.com search)
 * From all of those I have seen, here is the report which lays it on the thickest:
 * "The Hoosier who would’ve been the first man on the moon: How tragedy changed history"
 * They present so many factual errors, it is difficult to decide where to begin. Perhaps it would be better for me to not begin.  Anyone can check some of the more basic facts for themselves.  Particularly the tall tales being spun by Gus's cousin Steve Grissom.  Particularly in the second video on that page (WTTV's web extra).

 * And if you work for one of these news outlets, it is your duty to do a factchecking before presenting this kind of info to the world as truth.

 * Ok, I've said just about everything that I came to this article to say. I will leave it to other editors on how best to proceed so that we present solid info to readers.  Unless anyone has anything pressing for me, I will switch to a read-only mode here for the coming weeks, and will check back to see how the quality of this article has progressed.  Thanks for everyone's input.  Hawkeye, I'm glad that we got to include Al Shepard in this.  His case is an important angle on the story.

 * I know that there are going to be people who are heavily invested in the fictionalized version of the story who are not going to be too thrilled if and when they happen to be met with the info presented here. But incontrovertible facts have a way of proving their durability when held up against tales which do not stand on a firm foundation.  So I will leave here with complete trust in that, even if the process may take a lot more time than I myself might see as being ideal.  I have waited patiently over the course of several years with other topics.  And for this topic here, I am fine with sitting back and letting those who see the need to take an active role toward refining our article.  Goodbye for now, yall. -- Tdadamemd19 (talk) 07:15, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Rating as a Featured Article?
Do you believe that this article should be rated as a Featured Article? It has encyclopedic value, is of high importance to multiple projects and fits the criteria of a Featured Article. QuicksmartTortoise513 (talk) 01:41, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

 * Featured Article status is only awarded after a rigorous Featured article candidates review process. The article would not pass in its current form. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:20, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Inconsistency in article?
"He was also the second American to fly in space twice, preceded only by Joe Walker with his sub-orbital X-15 flights" conflicts with the 'first human' part of "This mission made Grissom the first human and thus first NASA astronaut to fly into space twice". Suborbital vs orbital flights shouldn't make a difference here since Liberty Bell 7 was suborbital. 173.30.73.32 (talk) 15:39, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gus Grissom


text:
Talk:Voiceless bilabial fricative

Untitled
What does this have to say about the nature of Korean /u/? It's not compressed like Japanese /u/, is it? kwami 19:38, 2005 August 24 (UTC)

The .ogg file for this ɸ or /p/ sound is all wrong. It sounds like "saw, a saw" and has no /p/ in it. Ginger Conspiracy (talk) 03:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. I can't hear any sibilation. A sibilant, especially [s], is characterised by a pronounced "hissing", i. e., high-pitched turbulence. Also, this sound is a fricative, quite unlike [p]. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:40, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Phonemic?
'Occurrence' doesn't list whether it is phonemic or allophonic with /f/ in any language. Anyone know which are which? Kielbasa1 (talk) 19:06, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Easy. Whenever the notes say it's an allophone of some other sound, it's not a phoneme, in all other cases you can assume that it is an independent phoneme. Therefore, in none of the cases currently listed, the sound is an allophone of /f/, while in two of the currently listed cases, it is not phonemic, but neither is it an allophone of /f/ at least, but of some other phoneme. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Note, however, that according to Spanish phonology (at the end of the section), [ɸ] also occurs as an allophone of /f/ in non-standard Spanish, although it is not completely clear from the text whether both are in free variation or if there is some condition under which [ɸ] occurs. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not so hard and fast. Part of the reason these sorts of tables don't make a habit of making that distinction is because the status of a sound as a contextual variant depends partly on analysis.  — Æµ§œš¹  [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]  04:51, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Glyph
Whatever the default monospace typeface is for Wikipedia's mobile editor, it produces an "open" phi glyph for ɸ. The same is true of the article header at Wiktionary. Is this acceptable? I've only ever seen the straight glyph in an IPA context. Hairy Dude (talk) 15:11, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

i'm an english speaker and
the two f's in pfft are not this sound. they are the same sound as the f you'd find in other english words. Masterball2 (talk) 09:03, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Why
This is stupid. It's literally the exact same sound as /f/

Ultradestroya48 (talk) 23:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Voiceless bilabial fricative


text:
Vitín

Vitín is a municipality and village in České Budějovice District in the South Bohemian Region of the Czech Republic. It has about 500 inhabitants. The historic centre of the village is well preserved and is protected by law as a village monument zone.

Geography
Vitín is located about 12 km north of České Budějovice. It lies on the border between the Tábor Uplands and Třeboň Basin. The highest point is on the slopes of the forested hill of Bába at 562 m above sea level.

History
The first written mention of Vitín is from 1459.

Transport
The D3 motorway (part of the European route E55) from Prague to České Budějovice runs through the municipality.

The railway from České Budějovice to Tábor passes through the municipality, but there is no train station.

Sights
Vitín is known for two large pagan Slavic barrow cemeteries dating to early Middle Ages, (8th–9th century). They are located on the slopes of the Bába hill, one of them is inside the municipality of Vitín and one of them is outside. They are one of the best preserved in the country. The cemeteries contain 69 and 80 barrows ordered in distinct lines going from the west to the east. The highest of them have about 4–5 metres in diameter and are 2 metres high.

title: Vitín


text:
Talk:LaTroy Hawkins

LaTroy Hawkins Fan Club
I would think it would qualify as a reliable source since it's ESPN, but it is also a blog, so whatever. I won't put it in myself but if someone else wants to, be my guest. At the very least, it's quite interesting. Makes me really like Hawk.

http://espn.go.com/blog/spring-training/post/_/id/1976/latroy-hawkins-and-family

Dozzzzzzzzzing off (talk) 23:29, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

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title: Talk:LaTroy Hawkins


text:
Talk:Howard Hawks

Low importance
Seriously?--206.188.55.235 (talk) 03:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

"Far from the the meek purveyor"
Yes, the online source says exactly this, but this looks like a misquote from the stated print source, "The new biographical dictionary of film". I'm guessing that the book actually says "Far from being", and have changed the article on that basis. A Google search directs me to page 380 of that book, but won't show me the preview. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Expansion
The lead section and "Legacy" say a bunch about the praise for Howard Hawks without truly saying much about Howard Hawks and his work. AndrewOne (talk) 06:01, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Improvements to the article
I just followed the link on the talk page that says this article is mentioned in a media source, and in the first paragraph they criticise our citation. I had already fixed that in my copy-edit, though, by adding A Short History of Film, which says the same thing.

There were a couple of other minor points that aren't necessary for GA but I thought were worth mentioning:

 * Early bio says his wealth might have influenced school acceptance. Would be good to provide a citation for such a claim.
 * A relevant image for the early life section is desirable--perhaps commons volunteers can help with a photo of school or house or somesuch?
 * The reference to not using religious iconography or messages is a bit decontextualised. What's it referring to exactly?
 * Why was he fired from Ceiling Zoo?
 * The legacy and the awards section seem to be covering very similar material (placement in top 100 lists). Perhaps merge the sections?

--  • DP •  {huh?} 04:04, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

The last sentence in the lead section's second paragraph for this article is unnecessarily and incorrectly italicized. But that sentence doesn't seem to register as italic on the "edit" page. Explanation, anyone? Mucketymuck (talk) 16:58, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Hello, the italics for one of the preceding films was not closed which was the problem. Fixed. As for the sentence being unnecessary, I don't personally agree, but you are welcome to edit it how you see fit. Thank you. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 18:07, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

You've misunderstood, Skyes: I wrote "unnecessarILY and incorrectly italicized"; didn't suggest the sentence itself wasn't needed. Thanks for the mend, though. Mucketymuck (talk) 20:08, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

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Trimming
There is far too much information about Hawks's individual films. I personally find it appalling that Hawks's lost silent films have their own sections, whereas his later and more well known films are just integrated into prose and mentioned briefly. I'm going to remove the exorbitant information related to his individual films and move it to the film's article as appropriate. I will be using some strong article examples of other film directors to give me some direction in reorganizing this article. Skyes(BYU) (talk) 20:39, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

World War I service
There are no reliable sources found as of yet state that Hawks served in the military in a war zone during the World War I. More specifically, the sources do not establish defining role in World War I. Accordingly, "Category:United States military personnel of World War I" was removed. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 11:53, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Howard Hawks


text: Talk:Clifford M. Hardin

title: Talk:Clifford M. Hardin


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Keyside strike

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. [[smoddy ]] 17:06, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Keyside strike
NN Band vanity; no presence on allmusic, no Google evidence of major label releases or tours. Delete unless noteability established. — Lomn | Talk / RfC 19:39:43, 2005-08-24 (UTC)
 * Delete. Only 41 displayed hits. Niteowlneils 02:43, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn band vanity. -- Etacar11   03:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. --GraemeL (talk) 10:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - not notable - Tεx  τ  urε  16:42, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Talk:John Hay

Untitled
I don't think there is enough in this article about the relationship of John Hay with President Lincoln, and I have tried to add some.

Andrew Szanton 5/06

--Editorial Content--

This line is completely inappropriate, and I'm removing it:

 * This is unlikely to be the case, but it does honor Hay for the quality of his writing; no one else around President Lincoln but the President himself could have written this letter with such grace.

This is not cited. It's the opinion of this author who has no intimate knowledge of the subject.

Diplomat, not politician
I removed "politician" from the article, seeing little basis for that term, and added "diplomat," seeing considerable basis for that one. Objections? AllanJ 17:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is this merely a political biography? The man had a wife and children, too. NickJones 05:36 September 28 2006

I have edited incorrect information about the Hay/Adams house in Washington, D.C. The original houses designed by H.H. Richardson are no longer standing. The building that occupies the site is named the Hay Adams hotel in their honor, but was built after both John Hay and Henry Adams were dead.

In 1904 Hay gave to engraver Haydon Jones a silver match case and the mohogany lap desk which Lincon used to write the hand written part of the gettysburg adress.The typed draft was left in washington. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.27.218 (talk) 04:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Lincoln's death, premonition?
Apparently Lincoln had a premonition of his death and mentioned it to Hay, who later wrote it about it in a book. Robert Todd Lincoln had problem with it, he thought it was too personal. In 1881 James Garfield had those premonitions and called upon Robert Todd Lincoln to talk about it, and Robert Todd Lincoln was there at the 6th St. Train Station in DC when Garfield was assassinated. No mention of any of this in the article? --98.232.180.37 (talk) 09:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

John Hay the Ottomans for help against Moro Muslims
John Hay instructed American minister to Turkey, Oscar Straus (politician) to ask Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid II for help with the Moro Muslims. The Sultan then sent a letter to the Moros of the Sulu Sultanate telling them not to resist American takeover and cooperate with the Americans at the start of the Moro Rebellion in 1898. The Sulu Moros complied with the order.

http://books.google.com/books?id=PvVlS3ljx20C&pg=PA235&dq=Pleased+sultan+Philippines+khalif+Sulu+chiefs+understanding&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sGYZU4-EC-vC0AGgmYGgDg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Pleased%20sultan%20Philippines%20khalif%20Sulu%20chiefs%20understanding&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=PvVlS3ljx20C&pg=PA235&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=S5q7qxi5LBgC&pg=PA397&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=zOLE6zY-AewC&pg=PA22&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=2mRXt7NtFhEC&pg=PA159&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=pc5FAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA204&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=hwdPWJMbZCQC&pg=PA358&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=e9vfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA358&dq=Straus+Sulu+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cmQZU8hTpvDRAebrgJgM&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Straus%20Sulu%20Ottoman&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=vDzjkrTDKjYC&pg=PA405#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=vDzjkrTDKjYC&pg=PA406&dq=Abdulhamid+issued+decree+people+territory+support+America+Muslim+accepted&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2GYZU6m3IonU0QHHmoCQAw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Abdulhamid%20issued%20decree%20people%20territory%20support%20America%20Muslim%20accepted&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 20:37, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Lead image
Any objection to swapping the lead image for this higher resolution one? It's not as tightly cropped, although, if we must, we could do so. Adam Cuerden (talk) 01:22, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * My main concern is the shadow on the left side of his face.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:03, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Reduced the shadow a bit; see if that works. Adam Cuerden (talk) 00:45, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Not that thrilled. We're still losing a lot of the guy's face.  This may be a case where "higher definition" does not mean "better".--Wehwalt (talk) 12:12, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, as I said, feel free to move it down. The original looks like a photocopy to me, though if we had a better quality scan of it, there'd be no competition. That said, are you sure your contrast or black level isn't set a bit high? Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:37, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

 * The shadow doesn't bother me so much, as it's slight. What bothers me is that the subject looks dark and distant.  I would recommend cropping off some of the dark space on the top, zooming in toward Hay's face (via more cropping), and doing mild brightening.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 17:57, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The trouble is, if you brighten too much, it starts looking really unnatural. And if you crop too much, it starts to move away from being the original historic image. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:11, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, then it's unusable then. It's too dark and distant.  We need an image that focuses on the subject front and center.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 14:03, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

At this point, I think we should go back to the previous image until a better one can be found. The new one doesn't work for reasons stated by two contributors. This isn't to say the previous one is perfect, of course, but it was longstanding and served the purpose good enough. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 14:11, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

 * I've said about ten times: Feel free to move it elsewhere in the article. Having a zoomed-out image is useful, even if a zoomed-in one is preferred for the infobox. This is a style of photography that was popular in the early 20th century (compare 1, 2); the old lead - which I've even cleaned up a little - is an enduring classic style. Illustrations should not be excessively modified, so as to no longer reflect the original artistic choices if we're actually using them to document history.
 * When a new ability comes in - like "We could set up lighting as part of our photography! The early examples tend to use it a bit to excess before calming down and stepping back. Think of 1980s 3D movies, for instance. Adam Cuerden (talk) 16:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Your arguments are interesting, but I'm unsure how they correlate to suitability as a lead image for this article. We need to concentrate on the best lead image without concern to explanations we might make for approaches used at the time of the image's creation.  The simple question is: Is it a good lead image or not?  Anyway, I'll take your recommendation for moving the new image down in the article, and restoring the previous one for the lead.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 17:53, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I never said my reasons, did I? Remember that Wikipedia doesn't mark the resolutions of images under their thumbnails, so I think that if you start with a low-resolution image, people may give up clicking on images before the high-res images appear. Hence, given a low-res and a high-res image, I'll give more weight to high-res for the first couple images in the article, just to show that there are good images available. Adam Cuerden (talk) 20:10, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I understand high resolution as one quality we consider, and it would be nice if we had a higher resolution of the current lead image, but I'm honestly not sure how the average user traverses an article in terms of images, and whether the resolutions of them affect that traversal. The current lead image seems to have a good enough resolution for the purposes of an article.  Are there particular devices you have in mind where a user would see the lead image, then think they need to see a higher-res one?  On my laptop, it looks pretty good.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 21:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, think of someone looking for an image of someone. They'll tend to start at the top and work down. If everything they find in the first, say, five images is fairly low quality (moreso for thumbnail-sized images, admittedly), they may stop before getting to a high-res image. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:23, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't see this point. Articles aren't image libraries.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 19:17, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, they are for some people. They need an image of something, they'll scan the Wikipedia page first, presuming it'll highlight the best free-use images. Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Hearing or claiming to hear
Re: the statement "He heard War Secretary Edwin Stanton's declaration, "Now he belongs to the ages."", does the reference corroborate that Hay heard it, or does Hay claim to have heard it? That would seem to make a difference in how it's worded. There's nothing wrong with healthy skepticism if it is properly placed. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 19:14, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to figure out a circumstance under which he would not have heard it. While there is some dispute as to was at Lincoln's bedside and when, Hay and Stanton were both certainly there. Certainly it was an emotional moment, especially for Hay, but the words if said by Stanton, and there doesn't seem much doubt they were, would have been "heard" by Hay even if he wasn't fully taking it in.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:46, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Editing needed
The fact box at the top of the page shows Hay serving as Secretary of State until July 4, 1909. The article states he died in 1905. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.120.209.2 (talk) 17:49, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Vandalism, probably.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:01, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Such things happen during an article's time on the main page. Looks to have survived pretty well though - one big error corrected (Bad Nauheim is fairly near Frankfurt, but nowhere near Hamburg - unless this is one of those cases where a town changed its name slightly to disambiguate itself) but otherwise, I don't see any damage. Might want to check the new reference, but... In any case, good work on the article, and congratulations again!
 * Thanks. I could review the sources to see if it was my goof or the source, but it's been corrected.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:49, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, I meant that, in addition to that, a new source was added to the article in the last day: Peet, Stephen Denison (1877). The Ashtabula Disaster. J.S. Goodman and Louis Lloyd & Co. LCCN 06028953. OL 7222137M. Adam Cuerden (talk) 12:29, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I've removed it. It is no doubt a gripping account, but it's by a local minister.  May be worth adding to the more relevant articles, including The Bread-Winners.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:16, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Bixby Letter
In regards to the revert of my edit removing the sentence "She was a Southern sympathizer who apparently destroyed the original.", such a definite statement shouldn't be made when both facts are contentious and debated.

For instance, the earliest mention of Mrs Bixby destroying the letter comes from grandson William A Bixby who in the Aug. 9, 1925 New York Times article here (paywalled) states he doesn't believe the letter survived but also that he has no information on it's actual fate. By the time William's son, Arthur wrote to the New York Sun in 1949 the story had morphed into her destroying the letter.

This is a biography of John Hay and we're discussing part of one paragraph which describes Hay's possible authorship of the Bixby Letter. It would distract too much from the flow of the writing if we were too have digressions on whether or not she was a Copperhead or write a nuanced statement about her maybe destroying the letter. It's also not at all relevant to whether or not Hay was the author of the letter. There's a link to the Bixby Letter article if a reader want to learn more about it's history. Libertybison (talk) 00:40, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a link to something that sets forth the current state of play in that dispute? I have NY Times and JSTOR access, plus a host of others if it's needed.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:16, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

 * I'm not exactly sure by what you mean by state of play; if you mean the general current state of Bixby Letter scholarship or about my specific objection. So I'll include a bunch of links about current scholarship just to be sure.

 * First, about Mrs. Bixby There was a follow-up article to the interview with William A. Bixby on the Front Page of the Aug. 12, 1925 Boston Herald with his sister, Mrs George M. Towers. She also said that she didn't know what happened to the letter but speculates Mrs. Bixby may have destroyed it because she resented getting the letter. This article is the first instance of Mrs. Bixby being called a Southern sympathizer, although the actual quote from Mrs. Towers is a little ambiguous if she's referring to Bixby's beliefs or her mother's opinion of Bixby. I don't have a link, but hopefully you have access to a newspaper database that has a copy. Unfortunately the last new scholarly study of accounts of Mrs. Bixby's life was in 1946 in F. Lauriston Bullard's book Abraham Lincoln and the Widow Bixby (Yes, 1946!)

 * Now to the general state of Bixby Letter scholarship; here's a link to pages 94-96 of Taliaferro's book where he talks about the Bixby Letter, for easy reference. Here's a link to Michael Burlingame's 1995 article on the Bixby Letter concluding Hay was the author; his book on Hay here explains his reasoning more in depth.

 * In March 2006 historian Jason Emerson discovered while searching the Robert Todd Lincoln papers, a 1917 letter to historian Isaac Markens where Lincoln told Markens that when he asked Hay about the Bixby Letter, Hay said he had no special knowledge of the letter at the time it was written. Here is Edward Steers describing it in his book. This is Jason Emerson describing the letter in his 2012 biography of Robert Todd Lincoln here on page 376. So Taliaferro is incorrect in his book when he states that Hay never denied authorship of the letter but I don't think it's conclusive of anything.

 * One of the most important studies of the language used in the Bixby Letter in regards to the authorship question is Joe Nickell's Winter 1989 article in the Lincoln Herald Journal. Nickell comes down on the side of Lincoln being the author, using similar techniques comparing phrases in the letter to Lincoln's other letters in the same way Burlingame does with Hay's writing and coming down on the side of Hay as the author. But Nickell went a step further and had University of Kentucky Professor Jean G. Pival, a specialist in linguistics and rhetoric, compare the two men's writing styles (syntax, vocabulary, etc). Pival also concluded that it's style resembled Lincoln's writing more than Hay's.

 * This is a link to Jason Emerson's 2006 article from the now defunct American Heritage magazine which I feel has the most to date overview of the authorship debate here. The link is set to page 5 where he talks about the letter to Markens but I would recommend reading the whole article

 * For reference, I was trying to link to Note#8 in the 1995 Burlingame article in my earlier post but it doesn't seem to be working and just going to the top of the artice. Libertybison (talk) 08:33, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I would tend to agree that Hay's role is uncertain enough that we should not include it. Accordingly, I'll delete the passage.  Thank you for your help.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:36, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Militias
The text from the source is "The crisis came to a head at the end of June 1844, when anti-Mormon militias from Warsaw and nearby Carthage converged on the Carthage jail ... the vigilantes forced their way into the jail ... Even so, Dr. Hay did join the Warsaw militia as its surgeon. It was only after the governor of Illinois ordered the regiment disbanded that he and several dozen others decided to turn back."". Just for everyone's info.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:15, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

File:C.M. Gilbert. - John Hay, c. 1904.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:C.M. Gilbert. - John Hay, c. 1904.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on October 8, 2016. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2016-10-08. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 09:47, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:John Hay


text: Talk:Will H. Hays

title: Talk:Will H. Hays


text:
Talk:Bobby Helms

Citations & References
See Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the  tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 04:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011
Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the Allmusic template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links: --CactusBot (talk) 18:46, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=17:793783~2~T00A

title: Talk:Bobby Helms


text:
Robert Treat Paine (philanthropist)

Robert Treat Paine (October 28, 1835 – August 11, 1910) was an American Boston-based lawyer, philanthropist, and social reformer. He is most widely known for his work as chairman of the building committee of Boston's Trinity Church in Copley Square, for his leadership of 19th century Boston philanthropists, for his summer home in Waltham, Massachusetts, and for his experiments in building housing for low- and middle-income workers.

Biography
Paine was born October 28, 1835, in Boston, Massachusetts, to Charles Cushing Paine (1808–1874) and Fanny Cabot Jackson (1812–1878). His brother was Charles Jackson Paine and his great-grandfather was Robert Treat Paine, a signer of the Declaration of Independence. Paine was also descendant of Robert Treat, and Hugues de Payens, and was great-grandfather of zoologist Robert Treat Paine III. He attended Boston Latin School and graduated at the age of 15. Paine graduated from Harvard College in 1855 as "first scholar in his class" alongside his friend Francis C. Barlow. A year later in 1856, Paine went on to graduate from Harvard Law School.

For two years after college, Paine traveled throughout Europe "gaining experience and broadening his mind." Upon his return to Boston, he entered the offices of Richard Henry Dana Jr. and Francis E. Parker. In 1859, Paine was admitted to the Suffolk County bar. For many years, Paine was counsel for Calumet and Hecla Mining Company as well as for the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad as it expanded westward.

Paine, having invested in real estate, mining, and railroad enterprises, retired in 1870 and devoted his time to humanitarian work. From 1872 to 1876, Paine served on the subcommittee in charge of the construction of Trinity Church in Boston. Paine was also a prominent member of the Associated Charities of Boston and served as the organization's first president in 1878. In 1879 he organized the Wells Memorial Institute, a workingman's club to promote social interaction, and in 1890 he built the People's Institute, another workingman's club with the same purpose. In 1891, Paine became president of the American Peace Society and in 1897, president of the Episcopalian Club of Massachusetts. He was also a member and director of the Watch and Ward Society as well as vice-president of the Children's Aid Society. Additionally, Paine was a trustee of the Episcopal Theological School in Cambridge and one of the trustees of donations to the Protestant Episcopal Church.

On April 24, 1862, Paine married Lydia Williams Lyman, granddaughter of Theodore Lyman II. They had seven children. Paine's summer home was known as Stonehurst and was located in Waltham, Massachusetts. It was a collaboration between Henry Hobson Richardson and Frederick Law Olmsted.

Paine's brick row-house development on Greenwich and Sussex streets in Roxbury, Massachusetts, is listed on the National Register of Historic Places as part of the Frederick Douglass Square Historic District. Another of his housing experiments, an 1890s 100-house subdivision between Round Hill and Sunnyside streets in Jamaica Plain, has been deemed eligible for nomination to the National Register.

title: Robert Treat Paine (philanthropist)


text:
Per-Mathias Høgmo

Per-Mathias Høgmo (born 1 December 1959) is a Norwegian football manager and former player. He is the manager of J1 League club Urawa Red Diamonds. He has previously been head coach of Norway women's national football team and the Tippeligaen sides Tromsø, Moss and Rosenborg. While being head coach of Tromsø he was working on a PhD in football at the university in Tromsø.

Biography
Høgmo grew up in the small community of Gratangen in southern Troms, and began his football career as a midfielder for his local club Gratangen. In 1978, he joined Mjølner, the biggest club in his home region, and spent six seasons with the Narvik side before moving to Tromsø in 1984, where he joined Tromsø, and spent the rest of his top-level playing career with the exception of a short spell with Swedish team Norrköping in 1985–86. He played for Tromsø until 1988 season, and was a member of the TIL team that won the Norwegian Cup in 1986. He also got one cap for Norway, when he played the last 15 minutes as a substitute for Vegard Skogheim, in a match against Switzerland on 8 November 1986.

Høgmo started his coaching career in Gratangen where he served as playing manager in the 1989-season. Following this spell, he served two years in Tromsdalen before moving to Tromsø for the 1992-season.

In 1997, Høgmo moved to coaching the women's national football team. In this role, Høgmo achieved considerable success by leading the team to a fourth place in the World Cup of 1999, and a gold medal in the 2000 Sydney Olympics. Between 2000 and 2003, he was hired by national federation to coach the national U21 team. Following this spell, Høgmo returned to Tromsø for his second spell at the club. Høgmo spent the 2004 season at Tromsø, taking the team to a fourth place in the league, and qualifying them for Royal League.. By achieving success with Tromsø, Høgmo attracted interest from other clubs, however, and in August, 2005, he was signed by Rosenborg to replace Per Joar Hansen. Rosenborg had suffered a tremendously bad start of the season and were closer to the relegation struggle than to the top of the league. Høgmo turned the team around, however, and took the team to a seventh place in the league.

The next season was more difficult for Høgmo. After the team suffered from a slow start of the season, Høgmo took out sick leave and left the club in incertainty. Høgmo's assistant, Knut Tørum, meanwhile did his things well in the club and in October 2006, Høgmo resigned from his position as manager, and said he would withdraw from football to pursue a new career.

Høgmo's stint away from football would last only two years. In 2008, he was signed by Tromsø for the third time, replacing Steinar Nilsen. In his first season at the club, Høgmo took the team to the third spot in the league - improving the team's sixth spot finish in the 2007-season. The 2009-season was slightly more difficult for Høgmo and Tromsø, but the team nevertheless finished sixth in the league. In 2010, success continued for Høgmo when he took the team to the top of the league at the start of the season. Despite slowing off a little after the summer break, Tromsø nevertheless confirmed their status as one of the best teams in the Norwegian Premier League that season.

Høgmo has also served as commentator for NRK's football coverage called "4-4-2".

On 27 September 2013, Per Mathias Høgmo replaced Egil Olsen as coach of Norway. Olsen agreed to stand down following the World Cup qualifying defeat at home to Switzerland. On 16 November 2016, Høgmo quit after three years in charge.

Manager

 * Gratangen (playing manager, 1989)
 * Tromsdalen (1990–91)
 * Tromsø (1992)
 * Fossum (1993–94)
 * Norway U-19 (1993)
 * Norway U-15 (1994)
 * Norway U-16 (1995)
 * Moss (1995–96)
 * Promoted to Tippeligaen in 1995
 * Norway U-17 (1996)
 * Norway women's national football team (1997–2000)
 * Fourth place in the World Cup in 1999
 * First place in the Olympics in 2000
 * Norway U-21 (2000–03)
 * Tromsø (2004)
 * Fourth place in Tippeligaen, which meant qualifying for Royal League
 * Rosenborg (2005–06)
 * Qualified for UEFA Champions League in 2005
 * Tromsø (2008-2012)
 * Djurgårdens (2013)
 * Norway national team (2013-2016)
 * Fredrikstad (2017-2018)
 * Norway Youth Academy (2020)
 * Häcken (2021-)

Player

 * Gratangen (1977)
 * Mjølner (1978–83)
 * Tromsø (1984–85)
 * Norrköping (1985–86)
 * Tromsø (1986–89)

Author

 * Mental trening i fotball (en. Mental training in football), 2004 – ISBN 82-7286-148-8

title: Per-Mathias Høgmo


text:
First XI

The First XI (or, less commonly, First 11) are the eleven primary players in an organisation's leading team, particularly a football or cricket team. A player who is considered a core part of the starting line-up in a First XI team is often the most proficient in their particular position.

The name is a reference to the fact that they are the first eleven players selected to play for the team—many sports state that clubs must have squads of no fewer than $$x$$ number of players, and this number is often higher than 11. For example, in the Premier League, each club has to designate a squad of 25.

title: First XI


text: Template:I-20 aux

title: Template:I-20 aux


text:
Talk:Supergirl (Kara Zor-El)

Redirect
Is this page necessary? I'm inclined to thing that Kara Zor-El should just redirect to Supergirl--Isotope23 19:43, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Cir-El?
Should Cir-El really be listed as Kara's Genetically engineered "half-cousin"? Cir-El wasn't related to Kara at all, neither was she related to Superman. She was a homeless girl given Superman's DNA and she doesn't even exist anymore. CureWhite
 * Ha! you'd think she shouldn't be listed.  You know... given her lack of interaction with Kara, and impact on the Superman mythos as a whole... oh and the fact THEY AREN'T REALLY RELATED, let alone that she no longer exists.  apparently she must be listed on everyone remotely related to Superman.

ugh.

161.38.222.14 00:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

She does exist (read Cir-El's article), and second, Cir-EL's DNA is 50% of Kal-El's (Kara's cousin) DNA, so that makes her gentically related to Kara. And DNA is the primary factor in being related to anyone. Look at Superboy, he also has 50% of Superman's DNA, and everyone doesn't argue about his relation to Superman or Kara, so why should Cir-El be excluded when she has the same genetic relation to them.MetaStar 15:51, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Pre-Crisis info in the Superhero Box
Yea or Nay? It's kind of a different character, but i loathe two Superhero Boxes for the same character (like a lot of the Legion ones). Opinions anyone? Exvicious 01:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Ah, but are they the same character? As somebody who's old enough to remember the first Kara Zor-El, it's hard for me to think of them as the same. And given that Donna Troy remembers the first Kara's death (as shown in week 4 of 52), who's to say they aren't different? I'm almost to the point of suggesting a split into Kara Zor-El (Pre-Crisis) and Kara Zor-El (Post-Crisis). I won't yet, though, because I think we may find out the answers soon. So I guess my suggestion is to leave the pre-Crisis in for now and reserve the possiblity of having two SHBs if future events warrant. CovenantD 01:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)  Oh, and thanks for asking :-) CovenantD 01:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The Silver Age Batman is also radically different from the Modern Age but they are still the same character. Same rules apply. Kara is Kara. Period. Bookkeeperoftheoccult 23:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

 * That's the issue with almost every single DC Comics character. There should be a main article with the Modern Age bio, if the silver or golden age versions are too long or even more, have interacted with the Modern age, those should get separated articles.

 * There are several characters named Supergirl just as there are even more characters named Superman, Batman or Huntress. But those articles don't start "there are several characters named...". Those deal with the issue by being mainly about the modern age but with sections dedicated to the silver and golden age versions. However, if those articles based on the Modern era versions often spawn sub-articles about powers and weapons, I don't see why can't also spawn subarticles about versions of the same character from the other eras. Pardon my English.--The Judge 14:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Supergirl is uniquely convoluted. The various Supergirls are clearly different people, not just the same people from parallel dimensions.  It's so convoluted that without compressing them into the Supergirl article, no one could follow it.  This one Supergirl (Kara Zor-El) is by far the most convoluted version with at least four origin stories for that character alone in comics (counting the Cosmic Adventures version), plus another different one from the Superman animated series, and another from the 1984 movie.  All for the same person from the same dimension.  So what works for her may not work for other characters.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.172.34 (talk) 05:35, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Edits for clarity needed in the "Modern Age" section
Some of the information on the "Modern age" Kara needs to be edited for clarity of meaning. Certain sentences read as if written by someone who learned English as a second language, and it ranges from simple misuse of words to nearly incomprehensible. Some examples:

 * "It was revealed that prior before the crisis, it was because of Superboy-Prime's reality-altering ripple effect,[14] which brought Kara Zor-El back to existence."

 * "Her supposed dream world was shattered and in shambles when the very same Brainiac, concerned about the effects of a superpowered being like her slipping in madness, exposed her to green Kryptonite, sedated her and left in care of Kandorian scientist in the enlarged Rokin/New Krypton Kandor City for being "re-educated" on the uses of the last Kryptonians (with even language changed in a thousand years, Kara couldn't even be an effective member of Rokin society, thus making her an outcast again), and her "romance" with Cosmic Boy was dismissed as the side-effect of the residual zeta-beam radiaton affecting the young boy body chemistry." (I honestly have no clue what information this passage, particularly the latter half, is trying to convey, other than something bad happened to Kara.)

I've read very little of the current Kara's published appearances, and I fear that if I edited the text myself (particularly the second passage cited above), I would incorrectly interpret the meaning. Can someone more well-versed in this incarnation of the character tackle this problem? - Pennyforth 16:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

First appearance
There is a discussion on the Comics Project talk page about the appropriateness of "Historical" and "Modern" in the superherobox. CovenantD 00:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Return to Earth
Isn't metioned in World War III that Supergirl was split into at least two beeings when returning from the Legion are. Only one part of her passed throu the martian manhunter and fell to earth, at least thats what i read at one of the World war III introduction pages (the black pages). This should be added, shouldn't it ? Heinrich k 06:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna go look that up.--Marhawkman 09:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's needed. the actual nature of what was seen is very open for debate.--Marhawkman 23:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * True. Still the text at the beginning of book 3 clearly states Supergirl [...] mysteriously divided, and one of her selves has fallen to earth, while the other remains lost in space. So it is very clear, what the images in book 2 are supposed to show. Heinrich k 22:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... I'd wait until they actually do something with that. right now there's really not enough to go on.--Marhawkman 19:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I put that up on the World War III page, but it was removed. Bluecatcinema 08:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Smallville
So it's true that Kara is going to be a new character in Smallville season 7, thats awesome. Allilee

Yes and I think they are doing the Supergirl: Power storyline involving her reason for going to Earth. All the pieces seem to be in place (black kryptonite, the crystal in the ship, etc.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.172.41.13 (talk) 05:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Issue four
One of the variant covers for issue four, the one with silver age-like graphics, and the Black Supergirl saying "You thought you could destroy me with Black Kryptonite, Luthor, but instead you've released me, the true Supergirl!", is that based on an old comic story, or something? Bluecatcinema 09:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * While it sounds like it might be.... It was probably inspired by them rather than directly taken from one. 2 reasons, 1: the "true supergirl" thing is unique to this character. 2: Black Kryptonite is a new idea. So I think they did it just cause they thought it was cool.--Marhawkman 12:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

automated peer review
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Bookkeeperoftheoccult 07:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The lead of this article may be too long, or may contain too many paragraphs. Please follow guidelines at WP:LEAD; be aware that the lead should adequately summarize the article.[?]
 * The lead is for summarizing the rest of the article, and should not introduce new topics not discussed in the rest of the article, as per WP:LEAD. Please ensure that the lead adequately summarizes the article.[?]
 * Consider adding more links to the article; per Manual of Style (links) and Build the web, create links to relevant articles.[?]
 * Per What is a featured article?, Images should have concise captions.[?]
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 * Per Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading  ==Magellan's journey== , use  ==Journey== .[?]
 * Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Summary style.[?]
 * There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
 * apparently
 * might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).[?]
 * Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
 * Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “ All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
 * Avoid misplaced formality: “in order to/for” (-> to/for), “thereupon”, “notwithstanding”, etc.
 * The script has spotted the following contractions: haven't, isn't, can't, couldn't, can't, doesn't, if these are outside of quotations, they should be expanded.
 * As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2][?]
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]

Silver Age edit
I removed a bulk of information from the silver age section that had no references. If proper citations can be found, they can be reintegrated into the article at a later date.

 * Changing her name to Linda Lee Danvers (later known as just Linda Danvers), she becomes a student at Midvale High School, from where she eventually graduates (1965). During this period she befriends telepath Lena Thorul, the sister of Lex Luthor (Lena had first appeared in Lois Lane's series and changed her name from Lena Luthor) who becomes a helper and confidant to Kara in both of her identities until she marries. In 1966 Linda earns a scholarship to study at Stanhope College, until she graduates in 1971 (her major is never revealed). In addition to Streaky, a pet cat affected by "X" Kryptonite that also possessed superpowers, she now acquires an equine companion named Comet, a magical superpowered "pet" once described by Superman as "the mightiest Super-Creature on Earth", and joins the Legion of Super-Heroes. Comet becomes Kara's inseparable companion.  Originally a centaur named Biron who was magically hexed by Circe to become a super-powered horse, he is secretly in love with Kara and romances her while he is human, which happens whenever a real comet passed near Earth (another facet of Circe's hex). His invulnerability to kryptonite allowes him to save Supergirl many times. But the two grow distant when she goes on to college.

 * When dreams about her Kryptonian parents Zor-El and Allura being still alive alert her, Kara builds a machine and brings both back safely from the survival zone (where they had teleported during Argo's final moments) with the help of her adopted father's engineering talent. Eventually, Zor-El and Allura settle in Kandor, and when the city in the bottle is enlarged they lived on New Krypton/Rokyn.

 * Always popular with boys and fond of romances, Kara enjoys many boyfriend-girlfriend relationships, like her Midvale orphanage friend Richard (Dick) Malverne, her merboy friend from Atlantis Jerro, and fellow Legion of Super-Heroes member Brainiac 5, but she always shuns a serious commitment that would translate into marriage, putting her super-career first.

 * When DC Editor Mort Weisinger retired in 1971 Julius Schwartz revamped the Superman Comics, and (under Mike Sekowsky) Kara was given a big set of mod threads to wear, some to the liking of fans, others not so much. Technically more powerful than the 1/3 depowered Superman, and with no peril in sight due to the absence of green kryptonite, Kara was given a potion that made her at times non-powered and other times powered for two years, a formula that soon became tired routine. But under the editorship of Joe Orlando in 1973-4, the character was revitalized to the liking of fans, balancing the superheroics with the romantic girl.

 * Leaving her adoptive home to become an anchorwoman for KSF-TV in San Francisco, Linda has to battle her co-worker and most memorable villain from this period: Luthor's niece Nasthalthia or Nasty, who follows her doggedly and comes close to proving her dual identity. Her beau during this time is her own boss, Geoff, and his pal, Johnny.

 * Renouncing her job, she becomes a graduate student in drama at Vandyre College nearby. Supergirl begins to try to establish her own identity and experiments with a wide variety of costume and hairstyle changes; her best-known outfit from this era is a blue v-necked sweater with a small S insignia over her heart, and red hot-pants. While remaining independent from her cousin Superman, Kara maintains close ties with him as she handles a succession of short timed jobs like Student Advisor at New Athens Experimental College in Florida, and female soap-opera actress in the Secret Hearts TV series, during her "Superman Family" run.

 * Bookkeeperoftheoccult 09:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

GA Nomination
This article has a lot of potential, but it is seriously lacking sources. This is a very long article with very few sources. There are complete paragraphs that are with only 1 source. (See WP:CITE)

I am not posting this as your official reviewer, because If I were the official reviewer, I'd have to quick-fail the article. But because I think that this article can make GA with some little work, I'll wait for it to improve to review it. Cheers, Lex94  Talk Contributions Signatures 22:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

 * It is looking solid and I have linked this in from the proposed GA section of the comics project. One thing I notice was quite a few references are replicated and the use of the "name" parameter would help tighten them up. If no one jumps on it in the next few days I'll go through and sort it out.

 * I'll have a more thorough look through later. (Emperor 02:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC))

Good Article Review
I will be doing the Good Article nomination review Ruhrfisch ><> ° ° 01:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC) GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
 * Failed, some progress, but not enough. See below, Ruhrfisch ><> ° ° 05:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

So here are my comments, you have seven days and I will check back in two days to see how it is going and review your progress. Please ask if you have any questions, Ruhrfisch ><> ° ° 01:18, 18 November 2007 (UTC) Additional Comments Two points: 1) the section on the Smallville TV show should be in Other media (as it is not a comic book) ; 2) When you reply to this review,please do so here (below). ThanksRuhrfisch ><> ° ° 16:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Is it reasonably well written?
 * A. Prose quality:
 * B. MoS compliance:
 * 1) Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
 * A. References to sources:
 * B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
 * C. No original research:
 * 1) Is it broad in its coverage?
 * A. Major aspects:
 * B. Focused:
 * 1) Is it neutral?
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Pass or Fail:

 * I have moved the Smallville section to "in other media" Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 09:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

 * In reference to your suggestion so "Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes" could just be "Legion of Super-Heroes" or maybe "Joining the Legion of Super-Heroes,

 * Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes is the title of an actual comic book published by DC comics in which Kara Zor-El stars as Supergirl, so I'm not sure if "joining" or "legion of super-heroes" would be an accurate title for the section. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 09:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

 * All images have full fair use rational. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 09:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Checking back for the two day review, glad to see some progress being made, keep up the good work. I have struck those objections which have been met. Thanks for clearing up the title of Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes, you might want to make it clearer that it is an  actual comic book title in the article. Please ask if you have other questions, thanks Ruhrfisch  ><> ° ° 13:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Failed as still not meeting all GA criteria. Since the 2 day review there has been some progress on removing excess subheaders / reducing the TOC size. Keep up the good work, Ruhrfisch ><> ° ° 05:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 17:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Bold Starting Paragraph
The first paragraph is in bold text, which is annoying. It's not like any other superman related article, which is in plain text. Also, checking the code, I can't see any bold markup.

What is the code that is causing this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ravendon (talk • contribs) 22:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Fictional Character Biography needs to be condensed
30 years of her history is condensed into 2 sections "Silver age and bronze age" but then after modern age, there's a section devoted to every little individual story arc. Legion, amazons, Linda, insect queen, etc.129.139.1.68 (talk) 11:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So do it. Nutiketaiel (talk) 12:07, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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Why does this redirect From Linda Lang?
Who is Linda Lang and how is she related to Supergirl? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Camdoodlebop (talk • contribs) 18:59, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
 * In one version of the comics character, Supergirl, aka Linda, gets adopted by Lana Lang. DonQuixote (talk) 20:19, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

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Image Art
Can we have that art for Supergirl by Stanley Lau a.k.a Artgerm? Countryking2001 (talk) 01:55, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Powers & Abilities
Who got rid of Supergirl's powers & abilities section? Virman1996 (talk) 21:22, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Supergirl (Kara Zor-El)


text:
Lockdown

A lockdown is a restriction policy for people, community or a country to stay where they are, usually due to specific risks that could possibly harm the people if they move and interact freely.

The term is used for a prison protocol that usually prevents people, information or objects from leaving an area. The protocol can usually only be initiated by someone in a position of authority.

A lockdown can also be used to protect people inside a facility or, for example, a computing system, from a threat or other external event. In buildings doors leading outside are usually locked so that no person may enter or exit.

Types
Lockdowns may be adopted as a preventative measure or in response to a crisis as an emergency measure.

Preventive lockdown
A preventive lockdown is a preemptive action plan implemented to address an unusual scenario or a weakness in system to preempt any danger to ensure the safety and security of people, organisation and system. The focus for preventive actions is to avoid dangers and risks arising from the nonconformity to the normal circumstances, but also commonly includes improvements in efficiency.

Preventive lockdowns are preemptive lockdowns to mitigate risk. Most organisations plan for the emergency lockdowns but fail to plan for other situations that might quickly degrade to dangerous levels. These protocols must be based on the type of threat, and should be kept simple and short for quick learning and implementation, and flexible enough to handle several scenarios. This allows administrators more options to choose from which are easier to use in various scenarios. For example, in case of a loud scene by a parent or an unarmed petty thief being chased by the police through the school playground, this flexible procedure allows school administrators the flexibility to implement a more limited lockdown while teaching in school continues, thus eliminating need for complete emergency lockdown, disruption and delays in resumption of teaching, etc. The consequences of not having procedures to implement such lockdowns is that the situation might quickly escalate where there could be loss of human lives.

Emergency lockdown
Emergency lockdowns are implemented when there is imminent threat to the lives or risk of injury to humans, for example, a school's emergency lockdown procedures must be kept short and simple to make them easier to use under real life crisis conditions. Simple procedures can be easily taught with periodic lockdown drills instead of lengthy training.

Purposes
Both preventative and emergency lockdowns can be adopted for similar goals. They may be use for security purposes to reduce the number of people on the street to allow police to conduct rescue missions after natural disasters. They may be used in public health emergencies, such as Ebola and COVID-19, to prevent air-borne diseases from spreading and they may be used as counterinsurgency measures to prevent  local populations mixing with insurgents so that governments can conduct military missions against the insurgents. They may also be used in police emergencies, as in school shootings or hostage situations.

In epidemics and pandemics

Lockdowns can limit movements or activities in a community while allowing most organizations to function normally, or limit movements or activities such that only organizations supplying basic needs and services can function normally.

2009 swine flu pandemic
A lockdown was implemented in Mexico from April 30 to May 5, 2009 in response to the 2009 swine flu pandemic.

COVID-19 pandemic
During the COVID-19 pandemic, the term lockdown was used for actions related to mass quarantines or stay-at-home orders. The first lockdown during the pandemic was implemented in Wuhan on January 23, 2020. By early April 2020, 3.9 billion people worldwide were under some form of lockdown—more than half the world's population. By late April, around 300 million people were under lockdown in European countries, while around 200 million people were under lockdown in Latin America. Nearly 300 million people, or about 90 per cent of the population, were under some form of lockdown in the United States, and 1.3 billion people have been under lockdown in India.

The lockdown in the Philippines started on 14 March 2020 and is one of the longest and strictest lockdowns with varying levels of community quarantine being imposed on all major islands and cities. Similarly the lockdown in South Africa started on 27 March 2020 and progressed through various levels. It is also one of the strictest lockdowns in the world with cigarettes and alcohol banned throughout.

Schools
Lockdown procedures vary by site and country. Generally, a lockdown means that interior and exterior doors are locked, and all students and staff must remain in their location from the time the lockdown is announced. In some locations, windows are covered, and students stand at the back of the classroom or away from windows.

Since the Columbine shooting in 1999 and the September 11, 2001 attacks, lockdown procedures in schools have been changing. Some schools direct teachers to continue with standard procedures while remaining quiet, while some recommend an active approach against threats.

Prisons
In prisons, the term lockdown can be defined as a course of action to control the movement of inmates. Confining all prisoners, except workers, to their cells until the end of the day is an example of a "lockdown period" in a corrections schedule. However a "full lockdown" is used when all prisoners are locked in their cells to prevent prison riots or unrest from spreading or during an emergency.

Hospitals
In US guidelines, occasions for preventing entry into a hospital may include: power failure, earthquake, flooding, fire, bomb threat, hostage crisis and active shooter. Occasions for preventing both entry and exit from a hospital may include: external contamination, civil disturbance and abduction of an infant or child.

Lean manufacturing process
In manufacturing, the term lockdown event refers to a continuous improvement initiative in which manufacturing in a specific area (typically a cell or specific piece of machinery) is halted in order to contain, and determine, what are the issues that are preventing the manufacture of goods from meeting quality specifications. During the lockdown event a multi-disciplinary team reviews the specific area's manufacturing processes, tooling and machine condition, to find the root cause(s) of the problem(s). Once changes to the process, or machine repairs that may include adjustments or replacement are effected, a sample run is initiated and evaluated. If the results of the validation are within the required specifications, the area lockdown is lifted and production is resumed. Follow-up sampling is conducted subsequently to ensure continuity of the lockdown results.

Newsworthy lockdowns
In the wake of the September 11 attacks (2001), a three-day lockdown of American civilian airspace was initiated.

At the University of British Columbia (UBC) on January 30, 2008, an unknown threat was made, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) issued a lockdown order on one of the buildings on campus for six hours, cordoning off the area. A campus alert was sent via email to everyone affiliated with UBC, while those in the building remained locked in it.

On April 10, 2008, two Canadian secondary schools were locked down due to suspected firearm threats. George S. Henry Academy was locked down in Toronto, Ontario at approximately 2:00 p.m. The ETF were contacted and the lockdown lasted for more than two hours. New Westminster Secondary School was locked down in New Westminster, British Columbia at approximately 1:40 p.m. The Emergency Response Team (ERT) was called, and the school was under lockdown until 4:30 p.m. Due to the size of the school some students were not able to leave until 7:00 p.m.

On April 19, 2013, the entire city of Boston, US was locked down and all public transportation stopped during the manhunt for terrorists Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the perpetrators of the Boston Marathon bombing, while the town of Watertown was under heavily armed police and SWAT surveillance, and systematic house-to-house searches were carried out.

In Belgium, its capital Brussels was locked down in 2015 for days while security services sought suspects involved with the November 2015 Paris attacks. Later in 2015, a terror threat caused the 2015 Los Angeles Unified School District closure.

In August 2019, the Indian government imposed a lockdown on Jammu and Kashmir after the revocation of the special status of the state, by communications and media blackout, claiming that the lockdown was to curb terrorism.

According to Merriam-Webster, the first known use of lockdown occurred in 1973, referring to the confinement of prisoners.

Tracking usage changes through events reported up to 1999 in The New York Times:

 * Feb 12, 1974, Violent Inmates Are Isolated at San Quentin contains the first reference to lockdown.

 * Jul 29, 1998, Children in Tow, Tourists Stream to Capitol to Mourn Its Guardians, By Lizette Alvarez: "Friday's act by a gunman prompted few calls for a lockdown of the Capitol."

 * Oct 25, 1998, Report Card in Yonkers On New Schools Chief, By Elsa Brenner: "Dr. Hornsby declared a lockdown in the city's high schools, informing 6,000 students that they could no longer ventue off campus for pizzas and Chinese food."

 * Nov 8, 1998, No More Rotten Odors, Sewage Protesters Say, By David Koeppel: "At Seaford Harbor School, Principal Barbara Bauer, who attended the rally, acknowledged that the smells had resulted in one 'lockdown' in the past year. On Oct. 26, parents say, a lockdown was declared at another school, Mandalay elementary."

 * Feb 10, 1999, As Senate Goes Into Lockdown, Quiet Fills Capitol, By Frances X. Clines: "the Senate went into lockdown with President Clinton's fate in its hands."

 * Jun 6, 1999, In Brief: School Hot Line: "there has also been 'a massive security lockdown' at all Yonkers schools. ...All but one entrance door in each school is locked, and safety officers are stationed at each. Everyone entering school buildings is being scanned for weapons."

 * Aug 13, 1999, Schools in New York Area Reassess Safety for Students, By Randal C. Archibold: "The shootings at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., have led school officials in the New York City metropolitan area to reassess security and in some cases to make changes to minimize threats. At one extreme is West Hartford, Conn., where administrators devised what they termed a 'lockdown' drill in which students and teachers, practicing in case there should be a shooting, lock all doors and stay put until they are told that the police have arrived."

title: Lockdown


text:
Category talk:Anthropologist stubs

Untitled
There is something wrong with this category. A lot of entries with the anthropologist stub tag are appearing in the scientist stub category and not here. -- Etacar11   19:44, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Name alphabetization
Does anyone know why the names in this category appear alphabetized by first name, whereas the names in Category:Anthropologists are alphabetized by last name? I guess it has something to do with these names being recognized as article titles, rather than as names, but it seems like there should be a way to fix this so that the lists are consistent. rom a rin [talk ] 03:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

 * First, note that when talking about categories you have to put a : in front of the category name (e.g. Category:Anthropologists ) otherwise you will get a category inclusion rather than a link!
 * Second, in order for the sorting order to use a surname, this must be explicitly specified at the moment of category inclusion using "|". For example, Levi-Strauss, Claude.
 * Since the stub inclusion happens automatically as part of the stub template (like all stubs) the stubs are alphabetized by firstname and not last.
 * To change this you would either need software that "recognizes" names (dangerous and unreliable) or would need to specify the surname in the template call, which seems like a lot of work for sorting stubs! --Saforrest 20:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry about that, I completely forgot. Thanks for fixing though. And thanks for the information. It makes sense, and doesn't seem worth it to fix, so I guess we'll just have to leave it at that. rom a rin [talk ] 22:42, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

title: Category talk:Anthropologist stubs


text:
User:Bopopop

=Me=

title: User:Bopopop