text:
Talk:Pan-Celticism

Youth parliaments
Late 1990s: Scottish and Irish Youth parliaments begin

Is this relevant? Gerry Lynch 17:25, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, because they often visit each other's countries. It seems to be set up more as an exchange than anything else.

Music
I was initially hesitant to add England as a matter of course, but a quick scan on the internet shows references to music/individuals from England - notably to do with Northumbria or the Northumbrian pipes, yet also some mentioning of Cumbria - at festivals that celebrate 'Celtic music'. This is important and warrants a mention. Had Cumbria its own flag, I'd have added that and Northumbria/Bernicia/North East England as entities like Asturias and Galicia. For future additions, there is a strong likelihood of inclusion from Devon. Enzedbrit 03:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Certain types of English music are that country's best claim to "Celticity". Cumbria does have its own flag, but if you know the faintest wee smidgin about "Cumbria", you will know that the majority of the locals there consider it an artificial entity from Heath's era and identify with Cumberland, Westmorland and, in parts, Lancashire. Neither Cumbria nor Northumbria are entities like Asturias and Galicia at all. For one, both of these were created in the 1970s by London, and despite bearing the names of earlier kingdoms, have little to do with them. Also, neither has successfully voted for home rule. If you remember rightly, the North East of England turned it down, and that was the beginning of the end for John Prescott. Neither really consider themselves nations to any large degree. There is a Geordie identity, but in contradistinction to Macker etc. Yorkshire and Lancashire have more united identities, although of course, Merseyside was formerly in Lancashire (partly), and they think of themselves quite differently again. (This is all without dwelling on Cornwall, and/or Devon) --MacRusgail 14:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC) p.s. It might be helpful to talk about subnational identities. Some parts of the Six are often considered more Celtic, and the same applies to England.

 * The faintest wee smidgeon of knowledge of Cumbria would indeed reveal that 'many', but not most - as the idea of a Cumbria has taken such strong rooting - regard Cumbria as artificial, but as with Celticity in north west Spain, the idea is being fostered and will prevail, especially with those of my generation and younger who have only lived in a Cumbria and not a Westmorland. Northumbria wasn't created in the 1970s, more like the 6th century, and it doesn't exist as official in anything today other than name and attributes to institutions.  Northumbria is as genuine by name, as a region, as Galicia and Asturias.  The difference between Cumbria/Northumbria and Galicia/Asturias is that Celtic languages were spoken in the former, where there has always been a continuation of Celtic tradition, for a longer period (and still well known in many ways) whereas in the latter there is a big drive to it now as a way of separation from Spanish identity.  I even read a website that referred to Galician as a Celtic language because the Galicians regard themselves as Celts and have their own language - Latin - which must also be Celtic.  There is nothing in language, music and culture that is more Celtic about Galicia than the north east of England, with its tartan, pipes, mythology.  The difference is that people are ready and willing to accept Galicia, but no part of England other than Cornwall.  I'm glad that the North East voted down devolution because it was not what the majority wanted and the idea of the north east as it is today is very artificial - just a compass point name.  However, there is a very strong regional identity in the north east, be it by people who call themselves North Easterners, Geordies, Northumbrias, Bernicians, with so many parallels to nationhood, but I wouldn't call it nationhood as that's pointless in so many ways.  The idea of a Yorkshire identity is very strong, and the fact that the area is Yorkshire plain and simple, identified and certain, is a big part of that.  I can't say though how much of Yorkshire's regional culture and identity draws on its Celtic heritage; of the relatively little I do know of Yorkshire is that there is many a Yorkshireman that would list themselves Yorkshire, British and then European before English. Enzedbrit 03:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Galician is no more a "Celtic language" than Lowland Scots, Galo or Anglo-Irish. However, once again you betray your anglocentrism by referring to the "north east". I'm afraid the north east of the UK is Banff and Buchan. ;-) You have an obsession with Celtic England, but ignore other countries such as France which have similar claims to "Celticity" (minus Brittany, cf the "Cornish Celts" tend not to consider themselves English if they are of the nat tendency). I'm yet to meet someone who considers themselves "Bernician" (probably they exist somewhere), and in my experience Geordies have a deeper Newcastle identity than Northumbrian, although perhaps it is there.

 * "The difference is that people are ready and willing to accept Galicia, but no part of England other than Cornwall." - no they aren't. The Celtic League and Celtic Congress don't accept Galicia. Read up before you edit. --MacRusgail 17:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I betray my heritage by saying 'north east' because my mother's family call Co. Durham home. It is how I speak.  Had they been from north east Scotland and I referred to the north east in a Scottish context without saying 'Scotland', would you say the same?  I will always refer to the 'north east' and see no hypocricy in it; it is my heritage.
 * I am well aware that Galician is not a Celtic language, which was my point. I am well aware that Cornish nationalists tend not to identify as English.  Yet, people ARE more willing to accept Galicia.  The Celtic League and Celtic Congress, in whom I hold no regard, are not 'everyone'.  I wasn't even referring to them.  Maybe you should read my edit before you criticise it.  A quick look on-line shows that Galicia is linked so often to being Celtic. Enzedbrit 03:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

 * It's only the north east to people in England. Not to me. And I wouldn't necessarily refer to the "north east" on wikipedia, as the many American editors might think I meant New England, or the more globally minded might think I meant China, Korea and Japan. I hate to tell you this, but Galicia doesn't get that much more of a look in than English. You may well hold neither the Congress or the League in "no regard", but these are probably the most significant pan-Celtic organisations, which means their opinion holds more weight than your individual interpretation which is based more on keeping the "Home Nations" British than pan-Celticism. Galicia's Celtic heritage only really holds up when it comes to music, and that's arguably due to an Irish influx in the past few centuries. It's actually not particularly distinctively Celtic when seen in a broader international context. I think even the country where your accent comes from (New Zealand) has a better claim to being "Celtic". --MacRusgail 13:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

So this is why the Flag of England has been included? This is misleading, to say the least and should be removed. Find me a source that refers to England as a Celtic country and/or to the English as a Celtic nation? Patent nonsense, and all because Celtic music is popular with some people in certain parts of the country (I don't include Cornwall here). If the English flag is acceptable for that reason why not add that of Japan, where there is a considerable degree of enthusiasm for things Celtic? A lot of the Yanks, whether or not of Irish descent, are also keen on Celtic culture, so why not add the US flag too? There is a debate below, rather an unneccesary one, about the use of the Irish Flag to refer to Ireland, and yet this anomaly is allowed to remain all this time. I propose removing the banner of St George. Enaidmawr (talk) 23:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Celtic Cross of St George?!
 * I remove England without seeing this . I think

should go also. Gnevin (talk) 09:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Cantabria
 * 🇵🇹 Portugal - primarily The North
 * Nova Scotia, especially Cape Breton
 * Newfoundland and Labrador, especially the Avalon Peninsula

Twin Towns - Cornwall/Brittany
I wonder if pan-celtics are interested in the list at: List_of_twin_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom and other cultural and sporting programmes and events. - - - Vernon White 16:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

"Modern Celts"
Please take most of the discussion as to who is/isn't a "Celt" to the Modern Celts article, it doesn't really belong here, and just doubles up on what is there.

No references
Added the templates for no citations and original research.  DOONHAMER  |  BANTER  23:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge with Celtic Revival?

 * Oppose - this is about slightly different subject matter. --MacRusgail (talk) 12:45, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - the Celtic Revival is a relatively modern phenomenon whereas Pan-Celticism has much older roots (medieval Welsh prophecy, beginning with a 10th century text, evokes a sort of "pan-Celtic alliance" to drive out the Saeson, for instance). This needs expanding, not merging. Enaidmawr (talk) 00:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Flag
As per WP:V Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed. and it should be WP:RS. The ref added is not a RS and as such I will keep removing it until such time a WP:V is added and it meets WP:RS Gnevin (talk) 17:27, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The flag is referenced. Daicaregos (talk) 18:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

 * This guy is a timewaster. He has already wrecked a number of major rugby articles with this guff. It's all very well with the IRFU which does not use any of the Irish flags, and has a (c) logo, but in this case it's irrelevant, especially as Pan-Celticists tend by definition to be Irish nationalists, and to use the tricolour in all parts of the island.

 * Wikipedia is being wrecked by these self-appointed bureaucrats.--MacRusgail (talk) 18:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

 * WP:AFG and try to be WP:CIVIL, I take great offence from the allegations you are throwing at me .In fact if this happens again I will not be dealing with you ,will request a RFC and be reporting your behaviour . The reference proves the usage of 1 organisation not pan-celticism as a whole and as such is not a WP:RS . Gnevin (talk) 18:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

 * You have caused chaos over at the rugby union wikiproject. And what for? A solution with which no one is happy! Don't bring that here, it's uncalled for. And enough of these bureaucratic abbreviations, use plain English please. It's not big and it's not clever, and it's certainly not helpful.

 * As I remind you, it is perfectly legitimate to use the tricolour in the context of this article. Please desist.--MacRusgail (talk) 20:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC

 * I don't care if no one is happy with the WP:RU solution all I care about is that consensus was achieved and wiki wasn't making up stuff, nor do I understand why it's relevant here. Wiki is not about inventing or making stuff up. I don't care what flag is used here once it's referenced correctly. The reference here proofs the usage of 1 organisation not Pan-Celticism as a whole. This is what must be referenced. Your tone is extremely aggressive ,I only provided the abbreviated links so we are all on the same page its common practice Gnevin (talk) 20:26, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

 * "I don't care" - I know you don't, and that's why the result is such a bureaucratic mess. You do seem to have some (political?) bee in your bonnet here - in the case of Pan-Celticism it flies in the face of the entire political tendency. Something which is blindingly obvious. The tricolour is not just the flag of the Republic of Ireland, it is also the nationalist/republican flag of ALL OF IRELAND. That's why you see it on the Falls Road etc.

 * I also don't understand why you insist on using so many obscure abbreviations, when you clearly have a lot of time on your hands.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:47, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Gnevin, your attitude towards the entire project is disconcerting. "I don't care if no one is happy with the WP:RU solution all I care about is that consensus was achieved" -- this sentence is a direct contradiction of itself. Also, please try to keep in mind that Wikipedia's teachings of "assume good faith" and "be civil" go both ways. Your liberal use of acronyms (WP:V, WP:RS, WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:RU) are alientating, especially considering that you are dealing with other experienced editors, not explaining to newcomers that they can't create an article about their band and use MySpace as a reference. I'm a big fan of policies and procedures too, but you should never forget what I consider the first rule of Wikipedia: ignore all rules. (Not that I'm invoking it here.)

Now, can anyone actually explain the issue here, for the uninvolved editors who have been asked to comment? Feels like it was rushed to RfC prematurely. –ArmadniGeneral (talk • contribs) 05:05, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

 * When a user accuses some one of being a time waster (this being one for the lesser insults thrown my way) I think it's fair to link to be civil and AGF, don't you? I don't see how the use of acronyms is alienating it's common practice to link to what your discussing, while the user may be experienced others can and will be reading this discussion (I noticed you linked to IAR).

 * I don't see how it's a contradiction ,consensus can be achieved which no one is particularly happy with. I myself wasn't over joyed with the solution but it needed to happen. With out wanting to upset you, you can read WP:RUIRLFLAG for more background if you wish but as I said before it's not relevant here at all.

 * Anyway enough about me the issue here is the the Island of Ireland has no flag that is universally accepted as such I removed it asking for a reference. The Irish tricolour was then added instead of the 4 prov flag. Now it's my contention that reference added only indicated the usage of the Celtic league not pan-celitism as a whole Gnevin (talk) 09:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Actually it's not an insult, it's a fact. How many "column inches" did that discussion take up on the Rugby Union pages? Quite a few. And how many days were taken up discussing it? At least half a dozen editors, including myself got dragged into it. And for what? Something which looks bad, and pleases no one, all over a piece of pedantry.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:47, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * I've removed and reverted a link that clearly fails WP:RS Gnevin (talk) 12:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Gnevin, can you give a reliable source which does not have the Irish tri-colour representing the whole island in respect to Pan-Celticism? Jack forbes (talk) 12:37, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you expect me to prove a negative, what I do know is I've never seen the Magners League using it for example Gnevin (talk) 12:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

 * The Celtic League (rugby) aka "Magners League" (I hate referring to things by their sponsors - reeks of advertising), is not an overtly pan-Celtic organisation. True, it does take in Scottish, Welsh and Irish teams the now, but in the near future, Italian teams are going to be competing in it. --MacRusgail (talk) 15:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Any luck finding a reliable source for this? I don't think it's possible as there is not one organisation which represents Pan-Celticism so the options are remove the tri-colour or remove all the flags Gnevin (talk) 14:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Breaking it down
Tell which of the following you disagree with Gnevin (talk) 17:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Pan-Celtisim is a concept
 * Pan-Celticism is the name given to a variety of movements that espouse greater contact between the various Celtic nations.
 * Pan-Celticism is not exclusively the domain of nationalist and republican
 * Pan-Celtisim is a concept used by many different organisations
 * Pan-Celtisim is a concept used by many different organisations some of which use non tri-colour to represent the island of Ireland
 * The island of Ireland has no de jure flag
 * The island of Ireland has not universally accepted flag de facto flag

 * The first two are right, the third is nonsense, the fourth is true, the fifth is untrue, the last two are irrelevant to this article. Why are the last two irrelevant? Because they refer to a political, or cultural nationalist, wish. Funnily enough, until recently Scotland's flag was not standardised, and could be found in many shades of blue (now Pantone 300), and I believe that the flags of Brittany and Cornwall have no official status either. Anyone who would claim that neither Brittany nor Cornwall nor Scotland had/s a flag would be clearly confused, however - all have/had established usage. Now my questions - how much time, energy and space do we have devote to this? This already dominates this talk page.--MacRusgail (talk) 17:43, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Really when did the Rugby turn republican and start using the tri-colour and when did failte ireland and when did the British  council, while the concept is heavly propomted by republicians its not exclusively the domain of nationalist and republicans  Gnevin (talk) 17:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * ???? Methinks someone is confused. This article is not about rugby. Read what I said. The British Council is a British, not a pan-Celtic organisation, and has no interest in reuniting Ireland, let alone linking up Ireland, Scotland and Brittany etc. I think you really need to get some sleep or something, because if you think Failte Ireland and the Brit Cooncil are representative of pan-Celticism, then you are living in an alternative reality.--MacRusgail (talk) 18:02, 19 January 2010 (UTC) p.s. Can you answer my question please? How much time, and space do you intend to devote to this?
 * I am certainly not confused. The Magners League fits the definition of Pan-Celticism perfectly. Board failte aren't known for supporting Republicanism, the British council/BBC don't mention Republicanism either do PanCeltic.ie. I don't see a claim of a United Ireland being a stated goal of Pan-Celticism. Pan-Celticism is a concept held by many, Republican, nationalist and others as such the concept comes in many different shades not just the one you hold. Till the flags are either correctly referenced or removed Gnevin (talk) 19:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S This is such a major Republican/Nationalist topic they aren't mentioned in the article once! How about this, we put this conversation on hold for a month and you can work on improving this article and making it clearer. You have shown a lot of knowledge here which is not in the article . Gnevin (talk) 19:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * You have an extremely distorted view of Pan-Celticism. You won't find it in the UUP, DUP, or Orange Order. You won't find it within British-orientated organisations either, since their main aim is to keep the unity of the UK, which doesn't include Brittany or the Republic of Ireland. (Or the IOM, technically, but it is associated).

 * The Magners League doesn't include Cornish, Manx or Breton teams. (Fair enough, I think only Cornwall might be strong enough to field a decent team, although Brittany did host some world cup games) It's going to include Italian teams next year. And they're not all going to be from Val d'Aosta.

 * The biggest piece of silliness in your whole argument is that Irish Unionists can be Pan-Celtic too. Considering that a number of Irish don't even consider themselves one nation (mistakenly in my view), how are they expected to link up as a single entity with other nations? Funnily enough, the Irish language is also anathema to almost all hardcore unionists (with one or two exceptions), and they're not keen on the promotion of it. Like I say, your view of this subject is extremely distorted. I have actually been to Pan-Celtic events, they usually don't bother to split up Ireland into two entities - rightly or wrongly. --MacRusgail (talk) 16:50, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I repeat my question: How much time, and space do you intend to devote to this? I intended to be online for an hour yesterday. You kept me online for THREE. You are wasting people's valuable time here.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:51, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

RFC request
Is the current reference used on the Ireland flag a WP:RS and if not should the flag be removed until such time as a RS is found Gnevin (talk) 20:41, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Uninvolved editor's comment. Leave all the flags out. Not necessary for the article. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:25, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your input, which is welcome (even though I disagree with the advice given). As pointed out previously (on another page), the guideline MOS:ICON states "Icons may be helpful in certain situations: They can aid navigation in long lists or tables of information as some readers can more quickly scan a series of icons due to the visual differences between icon." That is appropriate here. There is no need to remove the flag icons from this article. They are being used appropriately, have been cited (where challenged) and perform a valid and useful function, to the benefit of the reader. Daicaregos (talk) 14:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:MOSICON is not the issue here the issue is the references given don't backup what is being claimed Gnevin (talk) 14:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't understand. If the flag icons are not an issue, why were they all removed? Daicaregos (talk) 15:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Because Itsmejudith suggested they weren't necessary for the article (which I agree they aren't) and removing them would negate the dispute regarding referencing Gnevin (talk) 15:30, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Strongly Oppose - Gnevin seems to have made this a personal crusade for some reason, and it has taken up far too much discussion time over on Wikiproject:Rugby Union. The result is not a happy one.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:41, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * What relevance has WP:RU got here? Also this isn't a vote Gnevin (talk) 16:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * The relevance is to your fixation. People can go over there and see all the trouble and bother you have caused. You weren't content with doing it once, you seem to be going through the whole thing again. You're obsessed. --MacRusgail (talk) 19:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ad hominemGnevin (talk) 19:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Since I was referring to your obsessive behaviour, of course I am referring to you personally. Why are you so fixated on this? Take responsibility for your own actions, and the trouble that they may cause.--MacRusgail (talk) 17:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Comment - It seems to me that the 'Ireland' article should more correctly direct to the 'island' article rather than the re-direct to the southern state. In that case, the use of the flag would be inappropriate as general usage on Wikipedia re 'national' flag icons implies contemp sovereign states. I know the ref gives a rationale for its use elsewhere, but I don't think it conforms with our usage. If a flag is considered useful, maybe the 'four provinces' one would be better. RashersTierney (talk) 16:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * This one is going to run and run, and Gnevin knows this. How much time exactly do we need to "spend" on this? We are dealing with an pan-Irish nationalist/republican movement here folks, not states or the Irish Rugby Football Union. I think Gnevin is also ascribing Wikipedia (an abstract, collective entity) with sharing his personal (political?) views.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * RashersTierney, the 4PROV flag has the same issue .It's Original Research, the island of Ireland doesn't have a flag and it's not up to us to invent one.Gnevin (talk) 16:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * It's not original research. You claim to know Ireland. What do they fly on the Falls Road and "Free" Derry? The Irish nationalist movement DOES have a flag, and you know it. There's Orange in it for a reason. I didn't make it up. You may object to that, but it's fact.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:29, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * I find it somewhat bizarre that this dispute is taking place at all. Surely all it needs is a brief footnote explaining that the Irish flag is both the official flag of the Republic and the flag which is widely used to designate the whole of the island of Ireland? As MacRusgail notes, "What do they fly on the Falls Road and "Free" Derry?". Everybody knows the answer. This argument is pointless (yet the Flag of England is allowed to stay! - see above). Enaidmawr (talk) 23:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Thank you!!! Yesterday I intended to spend an hour online, I actually spent THREE hours online, and most of that three was involved with this trivia. Gnevin has a bee in his/her bonnet about this, and I don't know why. S/he pushed it through on rugby articles - just about excusable there - but seems to be pushing the agenda elsewhere. I don't know whether the plan is really to grind us dissenters down with sheer time pressure or not, but it certainly feels like it.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:50, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You claim this is a nationalist issue fine lets add the flag from IrishN so . This nonsense of inventing stuff on wiki has to stop Gnevin (talk) 17:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

 * You have not formed a consensus, and seem to be pushing a personal agenda. I think most Wikipedia users on this page would prefer to deal with a group discussion, rather than a monologue.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:50, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * 3 outside users are against the Tricolour or the flags all together . I also feel the flags should be removed. The only users I can see MacRusgail and Daicarego seem to be supporting it . Also the issue of WP:V hasn't been address Gnevin (talk) 19:21, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Brought in by you, no doubt. It does appear that you are the only regular user of this page obsessed with getting rid of the flag, even though it applies. You won a victory over on the rugby pages, but not satisfied with that, you seem to want to have a rerun. Like I say, OBSESSED. Find something USEFUL to do. (Bureaucratic vandalism is not the same as being useful BTW) --MacRusgail (talk) 19:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest you (re)read WP:AGF,WP:Be civil and WP:NPA. A RFC was posted the users came as a result of that as far as I know Gnevin (talk) 16:06, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Go back to my comments on plain English. Don't think you impress me with your abbreviations - they don't justify this obstructive, and time consuming, obsession of yours with Irish flags. Again, take responsibility for your own actions, and stop hiding behind bureaucracy.

 * I also suggest you answer the question. How much time do you intend to spend on this? You can't answer that because you merely wish to lengthen this debate out until you get your own way. Don't think you can grind the rest of us down quite so easily. I have already used up hours and hours on this complete and utter nonsense. Please, find something productive to do, and soon.--MacRusgail (talk) 17:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

 * The flag icons on this page are purely decorative and serve no navigational purpose. Each of the 12 icons only appears once, so this is not a case where a reader uses an icon to spot all the instances of a particular nationality out of a large list, for example. Also, subdivisional flags are used, which have limited usefulness for most readers. The article would not suffer if the icons were removed. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:24, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Kingdom of X
What was the name of the Kingdom that included the North-east Irish and Western Scottish coasts? Gnevin (talk) 17:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Dál Riata Gnevin (talk) 18:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

What is this region
What is the region in Portugal on this map? Gnevin (talk) 18:12, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like Minho Province. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * or Minho-Lima? Gnevin (talk) 18:28, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Un-cited
This is as side from the flag discussion this article has many un-cited and dubious statements. I'm going to remove anything tagged with fact or who in a month if they are still unreferenced Gnevin (talk) 18:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Quite right. I'll have a wee look for references to back up any un-cited statements, as I'm sure you will, yes? Jack forbes (talk) 00:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'm still looking references. I've already added several Gnevin (talk) 17:07, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Could this be used as a ref for the music festivals bit I added? It only deals with Scotland so more would be needed. --大輔 泉 (talk) 18:55, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this ref should cover it all. Jack forbes (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Add them both. No harm. Gnevin (talk) 20:32, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

As usual, you seem to be more willing to delete content than research it. Or God forbid, you could actually create some content. Perhaps you could go off and actually find references. It would be of more use to the human race than stupid pedantry.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Changes mainly by me. Maybe you could use your claimed knowledge here to improve this article instead of having a go at me . P.S I told you about this happening a month ago, you've 3 days until I remove all un-cited as per above Gnevin (talk) 16:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It'll be removed by consensus, not by any arbitrary deadline set by a single editor. --Joowwww (talk) 23:36, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering this is not a *BLP* I think the former comment is correct. --Frank Fontaine (talk) 00:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Image
The second image (map) contains the caption, "where a Celtic language is spoken but not the dominating language", suggesting that in the area in dark green, representing "present-day Celtic-speaking areas", that it is dominant. This appears to be somewhat misleading. Mannanan51 (talk) 17:11, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

 * Yes, there are really no areas in which Celtic languages are dominant any longer. I've tweaked it, but I'm sure the phrasing could be improved. Paul B (talk) 17:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

French Wikipedia
The article on the French Wikipedia is far, far superior to this one. I think it just needs to be wholesale translated. This one is pretty useless. Claíomh Solais (talk) 09:49, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pan-Celticism


text:
In the Garden

In the Garden may refer to:

Albums

 * In the Garden (Eurythmics album), a 1981 album by the Eurythmics
 * In the Garden (EP), a 2007 EP by The Eighties Matchbox B-Line Disaster
 * In the Garden (Gypsy album), a 1971 album by Gypsy
 * Coin Coin Chapter Five: In the Garden, 2023 albums by Matana Roberts

Songs

 * "In the Garden" (1912 song), a 1912 gospel song by Charles Austin Miles
 * "In the Garden" (Van Morrison song), from the 1986 album No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
 * "In the Garden", a song by Bob Dylan from the 1980 Saved

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: In the Garden


text:
Shiva N'Zigou

Shiva N'Zigou (born 24 October 1983 in Tchibanga) is a Gabonese former footballer who last played as a striker for French club Saint-Nazaire AF.

Career
A striker, he arrived in the famous Nantes youth system in 1998 and played his first senior match in 2002. He spent the 2004/05 season on loan to FC Gueugnon, but after only one season he was transferred to Reims. In 2011, he joined Belgian Third Division team Royal Excelsior Virton as a free agent after his contract at Reims expired.

Background
N'Zigou is the youngest player who has ever played in the Africa Cup of Nations. At 16 years and 93 days, he scored on his debut for Gabon in a 3-1 loss to South Africa at 2000 Africa Cup of Nations and is also the youngest player ever to score in the competition. However, he admitted in 2018 that he lied about age and that he is 5 years older than alleged. However, mathematicians have worked out that he would still have been at least eighteen at that tournament.

International goals

 * Scores and results list Gabon's goal tally first.

title: Shiva N'Zigou


text:
Davey Graham

David Michael Gordon "Davey" Graham (originally spelled Davy Graham) (26 November 1940 – 15 December 2008) was a British guitarist and one of the most influential figures in the 1960s British folk revival. He inspired many famous practitioners of the fingerstyle acoustic guitar such as Bert Jansch, Wizz Jones, John Renbourn, Martin Carthy, John Martyn, Paul Simon and Jimmy Page, who based his solo "White Summer" on Graham's "She Moved Through the Fair". Graham is probably best known for his acoustic instrumental "Anji" and for popularizing DADGAD tuning, later widely adopted by acoustic guitarists.

Early life
Graham was born in Market Bosworth, Leicestershire, England, to a Guyanese mother, Winifred (known as Amanda) and a Scottish father, Hamish, a teacher from the Isle of Skye. He grew up in Westbourne Grove, in the Notting Hill Gate area of London. Although he never had any music theory lessons, he learnt to play the piano and harmonica as a child and then took up the classical guitar at the age of 12. As a teenager he was strongly influenced by the folk guitar player Steve Benbow, who had travelled widely with the army and played a guitar style influenced by Moroccan music.

"Anji"/"Angi"
At the age of 19, Graham wrote what is probably his most famous composition, the acoustic guitar solo "Angi" (sometimes spelled "Anji": see below). Colin Harper credits Graham with single-handedly inventing the concept of the folk guitar instrumental. "Angi", named after his then girlfriend, appeared on his debut EP 3/4 AD in April 1962. The tune spread through a generation of aspiring guitarists, changing its spelling as it went. Before the record was released, Bert Jansch had learnt it from a 1961 tape borrowed from Len Partridge. Jansch included it on his 1965 debut album as "Angie". The spelling Anji became the more widely used after it appeared on Simon & Garfunkel's 1966 album Sounds of Silence. In 1969, the same name for Chicken Shack's 100 Ton Chicken was used.

"Anji" soon became a rite of passage for many acoustic finger-style guitarists. Arlen Roth has recorded "Anji" on two separate albums of his.

Some other musicians of note who have covered "Anji" are John Renbourn, Lillebjørn Nilsen, Gordon Giltrap, Clive Carroll and the anarchist group Chumbawamba, who used the guitar piece as a basis for their anti-war song "Jacob's Ladder (Not in My Name)".

"Angi" is the second track on the first CD of the Topic Records 70th anniversary boxed set Three Score and Ten.

Folk fame
Graham came to the attention of guitarists through his appearance in a 1959 broadcast of the BBC TV arts series Monitor, produced by Ken Russell and titled Hound Dogs and Bach Addicts: The Guitar Craze, in which he played an acoustic instrumental version of "Cry Me a River". During the 1960s, Graham released a string of albums of music from all around the world in many genres. 1964's Folk, Blues and Beyond and the following year's collaboration with the folk singer Shirley Collins, Folk Roots, New Routes, are frequently cited among his most influential album releases. Large as Life and Twice as Natural includes his cover of Joni Mitchell's "Both Sides, Now" alongside explorations of Eastern Modes.

Graham appears (uncredited) playing guitar in a pub in Joseph Losey's 1963 film The Servant.

Retirement
Graham married the American singer Holly Gwinn in the late 1960s and recorded the albums The Holly Kaleidosope and Godington Boundary with her in 1970, shortly before Gwinn had to return to the US and he was unable to follow her, because of his visa problem due to a marijuana conviction. He later described himself as having been "a casualty of too much self-indulgence", becoming a heroin addict in imitation of his jazz heroes. During this period, he taught acoustic guitar and also undertook charity work, particularly for various mental health charities. For several years he was on the executive council of Mind and he was involved for some time with the mystic Osho (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh).

In 1976, Graham recorded All That Moody, essentially a private pressing. He recorded two further groundbreaking albums for Kicking Mule, 1978's The Complete Guitarist and 1980's Dance For Two People.

He continued to play concerts, but dedicated the main thrust of his life to studying languages; he was fluent in Gaelic (taught by his native-speaking father), French, and Greek and could hold his own in Turkish. He collected poems and folk songs and would regale his neighbours. After some time, he became increasingly disinhibited.

Rediscovery and death
Graham was the subject of a 2005 BBC Radio documentary, Whatever Happened to Davy Graham? and in 2006 featured in the BBC Four documentary Folk Britannia.

Many people sought out Graham over the years and tried to encourage him to return to the stage to play live; the last of this long line of seekers was Mark Pavey, who arranged some outings with guitarists and old friends including Bert Jansch, Duck Baker and Martin Carthy. These concerts were typically eclectic, with Graham playing a mix of acoustic blues, Romanian dance tunes, Irish pipe tunes, songs from South Africa and pieces by Bach. His final album, Broken Biscuits, consisted of originals and new arrangements of traditional songs from around the world.

Graham was diagnosed with lung cancer in 2008 and died on 15 December of that year, at his home in London.

In November 2016, a blue plaque was installed at his birthplace, the former Bosworth Park Infirmary building.

Influence
Graham did not seek or achieve great commercial success, though his music received positive critical feedback and influenced folk revival artists and fellow players such as Bert Jansch, John Renbourn, Martin Carthy, Ralph McTell, Wizz Jones, John Martyn, Nick Drake, Ritchie Blackmore, and Paul Simon, as well as folk rock bands such as Fairport Convention and Pentangle.

Though Graham is commonly referred to as a folk musician, the diversity of his music shows strong influences from many genres. Elements of blues, jazz, and Middle Eastern music are evident throughout his work.

Martin Carthy described Graham as "...an extraordinary, dedicated player, the one everyone followed and watched – I couldn't believe anyone could play like that," while Bert Jansch claimed that he was "courageous and controversial – he never followed the rules." Ray Davies maintained that the guitarist was "the greatest blues player I ever saw, apart from Big Bill Broonzy".

According to George Chkiantz, "What impressed me with Davy Graham...was he played the guitar fretboard somehow as if it was a keyboard. There was a kind of freedom. You weren't conscious of him using chord shapes at all: his fingers just seemed to run around with complete freedom on the fretboard."

DADGAD
One of Graham's lasting legacies is the DADGAD (Open Dsus4) guitar tuning, which he popularised in the early 1960s. While travelling in Morocco, he developed the tuning so he could better play along with and translate the traditional oud music he heard to guitar. Graham then went on to experiment playing traditional folk pieces in DADGAD tuning, often incorporating Indian and Middle Eastern scales and melodies. A good example is his arrangement of the traditional air "She Moved Through the Fair", which he recorded live at the Troubadour in Earl's Court in 1964. The tuning provides freedom to improvise in the treble, while maintaining a solid underlying harmony and rhythm in the bass—though it restricts the number of readily playable keys. While guitarists used "non-standard" or "non-classical" tunings before this (e.g., open E and open G in common use by blues and slide guitar players) DADGAD introduced a new "standard" tuning. Many guitarists now use the tuning, especially in folk and world music.

Studio albums

 * The Guitar Player (1963)
 * Folk, Blues and Beyond (1965)
 * Midnight Man (1966)
 * Large as Life and Twice as Natural (1968)
 * Hat (1969)
 * Holly Kaleidoscope (1970)
 * Godington Boundary (1970) (with Holly Gwinn)
 * All That Moody (1976)
 * The Complete Guitarist (1978)
 * Playing in Traffic (1991)
 * Broken Biscuits (2007)

EPs

 * 3/4 AD (1962)
 * From a London Hootenanny (1963)

Live albums

 * After Hours (1997)

Compilations

 * Dance for Two People (1979)
 * Folk Blues and All Points in Between (1985)
 * Fire in the Soul (1999)
 * The Best of Davy Graham (A Scholar & A Gentleman) (2009)
 * Anthology-Lost Tapes 1961–2007 (2012)

Collaborations

 * Folk Roots, New Routes (1964) with Shirley Collins

title: Davey Graham


text: User:Jammydodger/Britannican General Election, February 2005


text:
Talk:Sarah Jane Smith

Sarah Jane Mosley?
I seem to remember that some of the novels suggested that Sarah Jane eventually married one Paul Mosley. I had a thumb through Interference and found references to Paul, but couldn't find the surname Mosley — I suppose it must come from another novel. Anyone remember which one? (I'm not sure about the spelling.)

--Josiah Rowe 17:27, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

 * You've got me, there. Try asking on OG? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:40, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * Found it: it's Morley, not Mosley, and the reference is in Christmas on a Rational Planet. I'll put it in the article. --Josiah Rowe 03:05, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Not sure whether it's accurate to say that according to Miles Sarah "was married" to Paul between 1996 and 1998; the two references are that she's seriously involved with Paul in 1996 (Interference), and has the surname Morley in 1998 (CoaRP). Interference also shows the Pertwee-era Sarah getting a vision of her future, in which she has a husband on New Year's Eve 1999.  Putting all that together, it says that Miles would have Sarah marrying Paul Mosley between 1996 and 1998, and remaining married to him at least until 2000.  But I'll leave the wording to your judgment, khaosworks. --Josiah Rowe 04:44, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Great article on this interesting companion, but, as a minor point I wonder if it might be appropriate to replace the image with something a bit more recent? Sarah Jane's appearance in the trailer for Season Two lifts her out of the 'classic' series and into the current one. Does anyone else agree? Yallery Brown 22:04, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm sure a screenshot of her current appearance will be taken at some point, but it's the classic Sarah Jane Smith that many people remember and love. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

K9 Adventures here?
I know that the early rumours in the Sun suggested that a K-9 and Sarah spin-off was in the works, but the latest info on K9 Adventures seems to suggest that it's going to be a bit more distant from the character's Doctor Who roots. I haven't seen any press mention Sarah Jane in reference to K9 Adventures, and Nathan Baron of the Yahoo! Doctor Who group has said that she won't be involved. Should we remove the reference from this article, or wait till we have more information? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:28, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * My take on it is that Sarah is so tied to K-9 now that it seems odd not to mention it briefly, even if in the end we say she's not involved. As far as I can tell, K9 Adventures won't use wholly BBC-owned characters, i.e. The Doctor, but that doesn't seem to apply to Sarah, who's been used in Downtime, for example. So it still may be open for her to appear, whatever Nathan Baron (who dat?) might say. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 06:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Nathan Baron is the moderator of the YaWho mailing list, and a moderately reliable source — not as rock-solid as Shaun Lyon, but better than (say) Eye of Horus. Here's a link to his comment (you may have to join the group to read), but I don't know what his source is.  I suppose that for now we can leave it as is, and amend when we find out more. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to be snarky, saying someone is more reliable than EoH is a textbook example of damning with faint praise... --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 07:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I won't argue with that. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Aberdeen
Is School Reunion the first time we find out that where the Doctor had mistakenly dropped Sarah off at instead of South Croydon? Or was Aberdeen mentioned before? Should the article be updated to make note of that? GracieLizzie 20:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The article's been updated, and yes, School Reunion was the first time we found out where that not-Hillsview-Road was. :) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:23, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

10th Doctor
While I agree that the 10th Doc shouldn't be listed among Smith's affiliations, the criteria is questionable IMHO, because if we're to take that criteria at face value, Sara Kingdom shouldn't be listed. -EmiOfBrie 23:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I may not have worded the criterion in the best fashion — but the point is that the "affiliated with" field should be used for characters/organizations that the character is primarily associated with. Sara Kingdom is primarily associated with the First Doctor (and, I suppose, the Space Security Service, but they don't get their own article here).  Sarah Jane Smith is primarily associated with the Third and Fourth Doctors, and with K9. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 00:21, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

School Reunion and The Five Doctors inconsistencies
Sarah Jane claims to believe that the Doctor died when he did not return for her, and yet she encountered the Fifth Doctor in The Five Doctors. Can we come to a consensus as to whether this is:
 * a continuity oversight included (deliberately or otherwise) to increase dramatic tension (and it wouldn't be the first continuity error involving Sarah Jane)
 * memory loss (though this seems a extremely long bow to draw. Evidence?)
 * A lack of understanding that the individual she met in The Five Doctors was subsequent to 'her' Doctor, and therefore that he was not dead. The Third Doctor stated that he would 'explain everything' to her, and while this is not explicit, the point made by another user that Sarah Jane is not stupid and would likely insist on an explanation is a good one.
 * Any other options?

I was careful to phrase my edit as being 'a conflict on the face of it', without conjecturing as to the cause of this conflict, as we really do have very little evidence to go on; trying to 'explain it away' seems to me at odds with the philosophy of Wikipedia. I'd like us to resolve this for completeness - should we add this a section about Doctor Who continuity errors, or add a brief section about continuity errors in Sarah Jane's article? --Sofaman 22:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I think that to come down on any of the options is probably POV, so best to leave it open and let people come to their own conclusions and theories. --khaosworks (talk • contribs)

 * I agree, so where best to place info about these discontinuities in the article? --Sofaman 02:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, the bit about Sarah's lack of memory about The Five Doctors is already phrased in a hopefully vague enough way in the article itself (under the mention of her Five Doctors appearance). Another mention is in the notes for School Reunion, itself. I think going into detail is where the danger of POV lies, since there are potentially many, many theories and explanations, and even to list some is selective. I'm just being very conservative here, I know, but what do you propose? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 03:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Any other options? - Yes plenty, probably! One is that the events of School Reunion happened before the Five Doctors in Sarah's life. This would appear to be contradicted by the appearance of Sarah's age though. Alternatively, the versions of people who appear'd in the Five Doctors were only the 'essence' of that person, rather than the person themselves - like the retired First Doctor for example. The 'I thought you'd died' could be a figure of speech. It could refer to his dying after the Davison Doctor met by Sarah in The Five Doctors. My guess is that they thought 'this might be a pain in the botttom for nerdy fans, but dramatically it's a good line and we are trying to make a Bafta Award winning television show and not a cult TV series accessible only to those with a video collection of the last 43 years'. There is also the thorny issue of Dimensions In Time (or as most fans call it, the Scottish Play) DavidFarmbrough 08:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I've been thinking exactly the same thing. It was strongly implied from the conversation between The Doctor (Tennant) and Sarah in School Reunion that she never saw him again after "Hand of Fear" when she obviously did (in her personal future from all her previous adventures with The Doctor - I imagine evidenced by the K9 unit she had with her - she only got this at the end of all her travels with The Doctor, right?) in "The Five Doctors". Furthermore, she was quite aware of the fact that the Doctor changes, she told Pertwee's Doctor (but you changed!) when she met him in "The Five Doctors", also she was there at the time when the change happened in the first place. Also, Pertwee presumably took her back home at the end of The Five Doctors (interestingly enough, The Doctor's past but her future/present). Presumably, they chose to at least sidestep around this event if they didn't ignore it ... It's also possible they forgot. Shan246

 * How about: She originally thought he had died but eventually learned he had not (for evidence that she did not still beleive he was dead, in School Reunion she also says she knew he would have been on the asteroid ship at Christmas). --Logotu

 * You could always argue conspiracy theory and say that there was a regeneration of the Doctor that we're not aware of and that Tennet is really the eleventh doctor and not the tenth(of whom the missing Doctor is one we've never seen) and that would make his line make more sense. Half a dozen times since the fifth doctor makes eleven.  And no don't take this suggestion seriously, it was a funny thought that just occurred to me. -Anguirus111.

Or you could say that the events of the Five Doctors never happened once everyone got put back in time

 * I think user Logotu is on the right track. When Sarah Jane says to the Doctor 'I thought you died' she isn't implying that she'd thought he was dead right up until that very moment. In fact in the following scene she says, 'I thought of you on Christmas Day, this Christmas just gone. Great big space ship overhead and I though, oh yeah, I bet he's up there', which she wouldn't think if she thought he was dead. The implication therefore must be that after an initial period of waiting for him to return ('I waited for you, I missed you,') she gradually concluded that he was dead ('I waited and you didn't come back and I thought you must've died'). However, as time passed she must have revised this opinion to conclude that she'd just been abandoned and he'd moved on ('Did I do something wrong? Because you never came back, you just dumped me...') so that by the Christmas before School Reunion she was able to suspect that he was still living (she may also have seen Harriet Jones's television appeal for the Doctor to come forward). At the end of the episode where she declines to go with him she says 'Anyway, by the time I stopped waiting for you I found a bigger life of my own'. That she met other incarnations of the Doctor in The Five Doctors would bear this out. So, why didn't she tackle the Third or Fifth Doctors about dumping her? The Third hadn't done it yet and she didn't get the Fifth on his own. Yallery Brown 12:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I know it's been over a year, but there is a very important "fact" that has been completely overlooked here. In her last scene in The Five Doctors, Sarah Jane makes it quite clear that she has no conception that the Fifth Doctor is the same being that she traveled with and saw change from his third persona to his fourth: She tells #5 that it was nice to meet him, and #3 answers as if she had said it to him, puzzling her; #3 says he'll explain, but almost immediately they are TARDISed/time scooped (depending on which version you watch) back to their "proper places in time and space" which are quiet separate, so it seems implausible that he had the opportunity to do so. Understanding (eventually) that #3 was lifted out of time from before he changed into #4, Sarah in "School Reunion" believes that the Doctor from his perspective hasn't seen her since she and #4 parted. It's that simple. I think Yallery Brown is pretty close on the "dead" line. Perhaps a conversation with the Brig (her "Give my love to [him]" line in Revenge of the Slitheen tells us she's not completely out of touch with him) let her know that he had not died then but somehow failed to inform her that the guy in the cricket outfit was yet another persona of the Doctor. I think that pretty much answers the question. --Ted Watson (talk) 22:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

SJA prep
I think this article will be in need of some work as the premiere of The Sarah Jane Adventures approaches; take a look at Jack Harkness for how a Doctor Who character has been given a more general 'Whoniverse' look.

Just posting so everyone keeps this in mind as New Year's approaches... Radagast 22:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * As a bit of a followup: should the main image be replaced? With the series' debut having occurred, many readers will be expecting to find the 21st-century, older Sarah Jane depicted, especially the series' younger viewers who may not be as familiar with the 'look' that image has now. Radagast 03:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Last Appearance
Can the person who keeps changing her Last Appearance to 'Ongoing' because she's going to appear in SJA stop? Her last appearance in the show needs noting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.32.48.236 (talk) 06:37, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Picture
Wouldn't it make sense to use the older picture, from when she actually was a companion, in the main box? john k 15:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Why? In The Sarah Jane Adventures she is the main character, in Doctor Who she was a regular but not the the main character. It'd be like using a picture from Cheers instead of Frasier on the Frasier Crane page. --GracieLizzie 15:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The picture is not from The Sarah Jane Adventures, but from School Reunion. Beyond that, she is still best known for her role in Who - it is unclear how long The Sarah Jane Adventures will even last.  The iconic way people imagine Sarah Jane looking is how she looked in the 70s.  It's worth noting that she also appeared in her own pilot in the 70s.  Given that this is all SJA is so far, I don't see why it should be the model for our dominant impression of her. john k 00:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The picture of her in SJA is the most recent, if people are looking up a charicter they'll expect to see how she looks now.--Wiggstar69 12:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that the header image should depict her now, with a still lower down from the classic series (but not the one that's already there. There are better pictures of her). Reason? After her appearance in School Reunion Sarah Jane stopped being just a character of the show's past and became a current character within the New Series mythology. It doesn't really matter whether the image of the character comes from SJA or School Reunion. It's the same character - the picture of Jack Harkness on his page is from Torchwood, not his first appearance in the first series of the revived Doctor Who - and the image should show how the character is currently or most recetly portrayed in the series. Yallery Brown 16:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Sarah Jane was a regular character on classic Doctor Who for over three years.  She's appeared in new Who once, and The Sarah Jane Adventures has (to date) aired only five episodes, including its pilot.  To say that her modern-day appearances outweigh her appearances in the 1970s is recentism, and should be avoided.  I love the new series of Who and am enjoying SJA, but I think that 80 appearances in the 1970s outweigh 6 appearances in the 21st century.  Therefore, I think the infobox should show the character as she appeared in the '70s.
 * As for the Cheers vs. Frasier comparison: if Frasier was in its first season, I'd argue that the Frasier Crane page should depict him as he was in the longer-running series. Since Frasier followed pretty much directly from Cheers and the two series ran for roughly equal periods, the matter is moot — but (to pick a silly example) I'd expect Joanie Cunningham to show the character as she appeared on Happy Days, not Joanie Loves Chachi.—Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Why would this be a question of quantification? Doctor Who (in its classic and new formats) is a continuous and evolving narrative and its most recent developments must be borne in mind when producing articles about its characters. Otherwise it becomes dated and stuck in the past. The stories aren't comparable to episodes of situation comedies that are often - but not always - disconnected from an overall narrative. Sarah Jane may have only appeared in one episode of the new series, but that appearance was significant and connected directly to her departure in the classic series. As far as the character is concerned there's no division between televised phases. Furthermore, The Master only appeared in three episodes. Should we therefore exclude pictures of John Simm until he's appeared in more episodes than both Roger Delgado and Anthony Ainley? Yallery Brown 14:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Nobody's talking about excluding images. The discussion is about which image should be featured in the infobox.  I assume we all agree that it's appropriate for the page to show both how the character looked in the '70s and in the modern era: the debate is over which should be in the infobox.  I suggested quantification as a rough measure of which image might be a better representation of how the character is viewed overall, attempting to avoid recentism.  Here's another comparison: leaving aside fair use considerations for the sake of argument, should Sherlock Holmes be illustrated first with the classic Piaget illustration, or with a picture of Jonathan Pryce in the role?  After all, he played the character most recently, in Sherlock Holmes and the Baker Street Irregulars.
 * I know that the case of Sarah Jane is different, because there's real narrative continuity between her appearances in the '70s and in the 2000s. But I still think that the infobox should show the most iconic version of the character, and in the case of Sarah Jane I think that's still the '70s version, who was a companion to the Third and Fourth Doctors.  I don't think it's "dated" to show the character as she's most widely known — especially if the article also addresses her recent appearances comprehensively.
 * Despite all that, I don't really feel that strongly about the matter, and I don't think that the article would be harmed significantly if the images were moved around — I'm just giving my opinion. If other folks feel strongly that it's more appropriate to feature the character as she looks now, I won't stand in the way. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I understand your perspective and I appreciate your time in contributing to this discussion. My concern with comparing a character's appearances in the new series with theirs in the classic is that it is unfair, specifically because they are unequal quantities. Sarah Jane was in more episodes of the classic series principally, it could be argued, because there was more of the classic series than there has been of the new series. With the logic of quantification it could be decided that as the appearances of the Daleks in the classic series outweighs their appearances in the new series, they should therefore be considered 'classic' rather than contemporary and we should only use older images of them. While I wouldn't question Sarah Jane's status as an iconic character - in fact, I think the way she has been used in the context of the new series to represent the Doctor's previous history with companions has made her more iconic than she was, say, when she returned in The Five Doctors - I would say that unless there is a specific look or image for which is known exclusively, then a current image of the character's most recent appearance should be used. Yallery Brown 21:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I know this has been discussed to death now but since Sarah Jane became a companion again (the Stolen Earth and Journey's End) has at least two seasons of her own spin off show and a range of toys (i think she does anyway) surely a modern picture should be in the box - perhaps a promo shot from the bbc website - and put a picture of her older self (from classic doctor who) in the sub section on her doctor who appearances. 86.165.60.6 (talk) 20:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Jessica Ashworth, Sarah Jane at thirteen
Jessica Ashworth's portrayal of Sarah Jane at thirteen should be mentioned but where? Not in the "portrayed by" field because we don't put Richard Hurndall there in the First Doctor's article. Any suggestions? --GracieLizzie 15:07, 31 October 2007 (UTC).

By the same token, shouldn't the main page on Sarah Jane talk [at least somewhat] about her not as a "character" but as a "person"? A start would be her birth year, now established as 1950/1951!

 * I put her birth year at the start of the artical, (trying to keep a wikipedia tone after seeing the first ever 'amazing story' from SJA!)
 * I belive Jessica Ashworth should be in the artical as she is now, I feel there is no reason not to have her in the "Portrayed by" because in the First Doctors' case he was being the same person, whereas here she is being a younger version of Sarah Jane.--Wiggstar69 20:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The opposite is done with Caitlin Blackwood as Amy Pond. So why is it done one way for Sarah Jane Smith, and the other way for Amy Pond ? Hektor (talk) 21:56, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The opposite (I.e including child actors) is also done with the Master. It seems that the 'Portrayed by' section of the infobox should contain all actors who have portrayed the character. AlexanderJBateman (talk) 05:11, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, checking further, the original example of Richard Hurndall has been rectified to being included in the first Doctors infobox as well. I am going to go ahead and change this to see if anyone still objects. AlexanderJBateman (talk) 05:13, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There was also the name 'Jessica Mordridge' hidden in the infobox, but i have no idea who she is so I have left it blanked until a reference is provided. AlexanderJBateman (talk) 05:25, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Reprising the role
I feel like this section's just been salvaged from before Sarah got her own show. Shouldn't this, for chronology's sake, be placed in between the info on Doctor Who and Sarah Jane Adventures? Or some of it should, at least.Andral (talk) 04:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

32 year old?
I don't think it's a safe bet to say she's 32 in the top photo. Due to multiple issues, such as the UNIT dating controversy, and Sarah's stated age in Invasion of the Dinosaurs, it's unclear when in her life these stories took place.Andral (talk) 16:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

"affiliation"
The non-inclusion (is that a word? Hmm...) if SJS as a 10th Dr 'affiliate' is seemingly based on one editor's opinion (see Talk above, May 2006)

That's fine, but debatable, surely. So, please can we debate it?

The reason for SJS's exclusion seems to be that the section was intended for "long-term" affiliation as SJS appeared only in one episode. Well,

1 - we are not obliged to accept the originating editor's intention. The fact that s/he or someone else had to but a note on the article instructing editors not to include Tennant's Dr suggests that others have also shared this view. 2 - SJS is definitely making a come-back in at least one more episode this series. Does Jack's constant coming and going qualify him as a 10th Dr "affiliate"? 3 - The reverting editor's suggestion that SJS most recent appearance was a like cameo is incorrect: WP's own definition of cameo appearance confirms that.

While this is a matter of mind-blowing triviality, I don't see why we shouldn't hurl the idea about.

I vote we change the "affiliated with" concept altogether (seems to have no logical basis and if its meaning has to be spelled out in a note I'd say it need reviewing). That or we end up with an editor making an arbitrary decision as to how many episodes /she thinks someone has to appear in before they qualify. And that isn't good. 86.165.34.125 (talk) 17:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

 * So far as I'm aware, the affiliated field is to show which Doctors they were companions for. There's been a BIG discussion already on this subject, with consensious being that SJS was not a companion. Should we also add the First, Second and Fifth Doctors to the template on the basis of The Five Doctors? We can't add her on the basis of the returning rumour, as it is unsourced and WP:CRYSTAL. Jack is, I believe stated to be a companion by RTD or someone, same as that other controversal one. So far as I know, no equivalent statement exists for Miss Smith. --OZOO (Whaddya think, sirs?) 21:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

 * How nice to see a fellow MST3K fan here! :-) "Affiliated" is a terribly imprecise term, and its use in this context seems inappropriate, or at least, less than transparently obvious.

 * SJS's role in the 5 Doctors was small: with Tennant she was central to an entire episode. Big difference.

 * When SJS returns in the most recent series (and sorry to blow the surprise, but her return is already in the can) her episode tally with Tennant will increase again, at which point I'll certainly push for Tenth Doctor to be included in the list. 86.165.34.125 (talk) 19:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * One in series 2, two in series 4, plus photo used in another episode. Total 4, including 1 non-speaking. However, she's not a companion in any of them, more an ally, like the Torchwood Three team and Martha Jones/UNIT in the same series 4 episodes. Digifiend (talk) 14:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

 * She is now, finally, a 10th Doctor companion! The BBC's official series 4 web site has just listed her as such. See    81.155.88.44 (talk) 19:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to throw another wrinkle into this mix. She's now made almost two-thirds as many stories as the leader of the SJA team as she has regular, "classic" Who appearances.  Personally, I think the character has outgrown the companion infobox.  If a third series of SJA is commissioned, she will have made all but one as many stories in the 21st century as she did in the 20th.  Throw in the BF series and she's made WAY more appearances as a central character than as a regular on Doctor Who.

 * Put another way, she's quite simply a lead character. Really, a slightly modified version of the  template would be more appropriate.  She's not affiliated with other characters; other characters are associated with her.  While we're on the subject, I have a real problem with UNIT being in the list.  In no way could she be said to be "affiliated" with UNIT.  She knew some people there, but she's not affiliated with them.   If Jo or Liz disobeyed the Brig, there was the possibility of real consequence.   If Sarah does, all the Brig can do is look cross.   Czech Out   ☎ |  ✍  16:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Do you suggest making a special infobox for Jack and Sarah Jane, or creating special fields on the current one just for them? ~ZytheTalk to me! 00:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Current Status
I have two grievances regarding her current status: one, the incorrect episode is mentioned (Journey's End as opposed to The Stolen Earth), and two: we know that there's another season of The Sarah Jane Adventures, and let's face it, would it be called that if the principle character isn't in it, even though we know she is? 86.8.87.241 (talk) 16:30, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Year of Birth
Up until 21 October, the article stated Sarah Jane was born in 1951 with a reference to a statement in Whatever Happened to Sarah Jane? (WHtSJ). I changed the article to state she was born between 20 April and 20 May 1951 and altered the reference to note that she was shown as 13 on 13 July 1964 in WHtSJ, but also as a Taurus in Secrets of the Stars. Ckatz reverted it as 'trivia'. I then decided to try just altering the reference (as the year of birth seemed acceptable to Ckatz - as that's what he reverted the article to saying, which was what it had stated for a long time). However, the then reference did not in itself support 1951 - if you're 13 on 13 July 1964 then you were born in 1951 or 1950. But, also being a Taurus rules out 1950. I also added a note in the reference that a birth year of 1951 has implications for the dating of the Doctor Who episode Invasion of the Dinosaurs (during which Sarah Jane states she's then 23), but that such a dating would be controversial (with a link to the UNIT dating controversy). Czatz reverted it as 'not encyclopaedic and prone to speculation'. I reverted it back saying that a 'character's dob is not trivial, and no speculation involved here', but Ckatz re-reverted it saying take it to discussion. (Have you noticed how people usually say that after imposing their own view on the article? :) ). So here we are. My view is that Sarah Jane Adventures makes it quite clear that the character was born in 1951 (and - spoilers! - will make that much clearer shortly); that a year of birth (and therefore her age) is not a trivial fact for a fictional character, and that therefore it should be stated in the article, appropriately referenced; though where in the article can be discussed. What do other people think? (To pre-empt some possible objections: Wikipedia policy makes it quite clear that fictional works are reliable sources for their content, and obvious deductions are not original research.) Cuddlyopedia (talk) 06:23, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I think we can just wait until the spoilery event to which you refer, which will make Sarah Jane's birthdate explicit. I don't think there's any sense in fighting over it now. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No fighting! Just discussions. :) I have no objection to waiting a few weeks. Cuddlyopedia (talk) 05:26, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Further to this, there are numerous reasons not to invest too heavily in the subject. First off, we have to keep the real-world perspective, per Manual of Style (writing about fiction), and avoid any speculation. That rules out the attempt to reconcile information from different episodes, which is unreliable. (We have no idea if the details are accurate as a whole; episodes may be written by different writers, who may or may not coordinate such trivial details. Doctor (Doctor_Who) demonstrates this well.) Second, the date doesn't belong in the lead, but (if at all) lower down in the article; again, see Doctor_(Doctor_Who), where there is no mention of the age in the lead. Third, inclusion of a relatively trivial detail - even if referenced - creates real problems with speculation about the character's "current" age. That is in part why there has been a move away from the inclusion of such details, as with the series Heroes. --Ckatz chat spy  09:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Like beauty, one man's trivial... :) First, the entire article is full of details that come from different episodes! As long as the information is reliably sourced and is not OR, there's no problem with Wikipedia policy - though that probably does rule out a bare statement (even with a reference) as to the character's date of birth. Second - agreed. (I would suggest, in any event, that information about the character in the 'Appearances' section should be seperated out into a seperate one. Such a new section would seem an appropriate place.) Third, one cannot prevent speculation, one can only strive to keep it out of the article, and that's best done by an appropriate inclusion that preempts such speculation, rather than exclusion. Fourth, any fan of the character (or other reasonable person!) will expect to see such information in a properly researched encyclopaedia article, and it is therefore likely to be continually added. Cuddlyopedia (talk) 05:26, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

"In-universe/in-in universe" objection?
Ckatz and Edoktor: I completely fail to see your problem with the statement describing the results of a comparison between Sarah Jane Smith's novel The Day of the Dinosaurs and Mike Yates' claim of the real reason behind UNIT's evacuation of central London. It is right therecin the cited work, and has just as much context as the statement that she wrote those novels. Perhaps it would be acceptable if extended as "...under close scrutiny, at least by the Metropolitan." Considering the behavior of the two of you on Talk:Doctor (Doctor Who) and the fact that administration (which I now know you both to be part of) refused to so much as acknowledge the facts of the situation, I should not expect any genuine discussion, but I hope that that was an isolated incident rather than standard procedure for either or both of you. Please show me that it was. --Ted Watson (talk) 20:46, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a comment, but listing the "in-universe" article titles is enough for the section in question. Describing one particular article in detail is a bit unproductive -- unless it were in a wikipedia-article devoted to the whole series of articles, in which case all respective "in-universe" articles featured in DWM could be briefly summarised. DonQuixote (talk) 22:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)r existence

 * Seems to me that just listing the title (singular; there are several, but only one deals directly with Sarah Jane, hence only one is cited) "is a bit unproductive" as the point of this section is to report the varying descriptions of SJS's post Five Doctors/pre new series life as found in assorted of-dubious-canonicity spin-off productions, not merely cite their existence. Please note that the Missing Adventures/Past Doctors novels which are simple continuity implants to her run as companion to the Third/Fourth Doctors are relegated to the list. Furthermore, neither Ckatz nor Edoktor reverted the passage to such an extent as you suggest, so they don't feel your way, either, and everything else that significantly add to her biography (rather than just have her take part in the story) are described rather than merely have their titles listed, too. --Ted Watson (talk) 05:22, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

 * As it is now, it would probably be cut out anyway for copyedit reasons. It's just a little too much detail that, as written, just clutters up the paragraph and doesn't add anything.  We could put it as a footnote, I suppose, but then again, I think it's a little too indulgent.  "Mostly Harmless" DonQuixote (talk) 16:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

"Copyedit reasons"? What is that other than minor "mechanical" problems? Grammar, syntax, punctuation, spelling, etc.? As for 'doesn't add anything" it in fact makes the point that Sarah Jane based her novels rather closely on her own experiences with the Doctor more strongly than just the titles and the WIN bit do. And "a little too indulgent" fails to communicate anything relevant to me. You have completely abandoned the original criticism (not defended at all by those who made it) for things that even you seem to find a bit weak. --Ted Watson (talk) 07:04, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

 * "Copyedit reasons" means that it doesn't work. As written, it's a bit of fat that needs to be trimmed.  It really doesn't add anything (and therefore indulgent), and a simple "based on her experiences with the Doctor" would sum it up nicely.  As to your other point, I can't really "abandon" something that I wasn't a part of.
 * Anyways, just think Ford Prefect. "Mostly harmless" DonQuixote (talk) 07:18, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

 * That is not the definition of copyedit, not at all. "...based on her experiences with the Doctor" would, as you say, "sum it up nicely," but as the cited source does not come out and say that, we're not allowed under Wiki regs to do so here. That's "synthesis" and Ckatz, the first of the two editors to have reverted me here, would have no choice but to admit that himself given this. And I just don't see the relevance of the Douglas Adams allusion; after all, Arthur Dent thought the entry was inadequate, offensively so (it seemed to me). --Ted Watson (talk) 20:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Er...yeah...for a quick definition of copyedit, see dictionary.com -- it includes style, etc. Anyway, that's why just listing the titles is sufficient for this article.  As for the Ford Prefect reference (not Arthur Dent--he wasn't the author), there's a lot of copy editing going on with encyclopedias (particularly with wikipedia where there's a lot of editors), so don't take it too personally. DonQuixote (talk) 22:06, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

There is too much against "just listing the titles" including both precedent and consensus, so give up on it. I never said Dent was the author of "mostly harmless", but that he objected to it, was offended by it. Therefore your claim that I did does nothing but call your mental faculties into question. I can find nothing to support your definition of copyedit as you applied the word to this passage, as deleting it entirely. I must insist you leave this thread. --Ted Watson (talk) 05:23, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Sigh...(why does no one ever look things up in a dictionary--even free online ones?) From dictionary.com: "to edit (a manuscript, document, text, etc.) for publication, esp. for punctuation, spelling, grammatical structure, style, etc." My copy of Webster's says: "to edit (a manuscript or copy) for publication", which doesn't really go into the specific unfortunately.  From Wikipedia's article on Copy editing: "The copy editor is expected to ensure that the text flows..." etc.
 * I don't have access to OED.com at the moment since schools are closed, but here's a sample of a copy editor's work that I found online:, with the relevant part being: "As you'll see from my notes on the pages, the copy editor does more than check basic spelling and grammar. It's also my job to point out holes in the logic, imprecise turns of phrase, and other weaknesses, both minor and major, as I see them." Etc.  Please feel free to research more on the topic.
 * And I never said that you said Dent was the author. I was pointing out the fact that I was using "Prefect as the author" for my point.  I was saying that you missed my point by focusing on the wrong person.  Prefect got his article trimmed down to "Mostly harmless."  I even explained that it was about editors copy editing (sometimes trimming down) an author's work.  Pay attention, please.
 * Going back to the passage in question, "These featured an extraterrestrial called the Doctor and his companion Nicola Jones, who frequently encountered WIN (World Investigative Network), commanded by General Lutwidge-Douglas." is sufficient in-and-of-itself and doesn't contain any original research. Adding the excised bit is adding more of the same and can be trimmed without any loss. DonQuixote (talk) 06:38, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry I took so long getting back, but I had a lot of things happening during the Xmas/New Year season, and by the time it was over I'd forgotten about this. Simply put, "style" is in no way, shape, or form about content, which is what you edited out. Therefore, you have not substantiated your definition of "copyedit" at all. --Tbrittreid (talk) 22:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Style" is how content is presented. A passage having too much content is a "style" of writing (verbose).  A passage having too little content is a "style" of writing (terse).  A copyeditor can, and does, suggest trims and expansions.  DonQuixote (talk) 03:44, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Final appearance episode title
We need a source for this, as last I looked the story titles for the remaining SJA episodes have not yet been announced. Plus we don't know yet whether Sarah Jane might continue to appear in novels and audio dramas. 68.146.71.145 (talk) 17:21, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Also let's be accurate and call it SLA, Sarah's Lame Adventures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.52.81.85 (talk) 10:24, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Second Paragraph Introduction
The first sentence of the second paragraph contains a comma splice: "An investigative journalist, Sarah Jane is one of the Doctor's longest serving companions." I am going to cut out the first clause for grammatical reasons. But, the article might benefit from a short character summary written by someone more familiar with the character. Jocmckin (talk) 17:23, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I've added this.Zythe (talk) 16:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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April Walker taller than 1.89M (6 foot 2 inches)?
A citation would seem to be required for the assertion in the article that April Walker was taller than Jon Pertwee. This seems very unlikely. She does not appear that tall in her other TV programmes! 2.28.151.167 (talk) 04:08, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sarah Jane Smith


text: File:Teardrop Explodes - Kilimanjaro CD album cover.jpg


text:
Twice Upon a Time – The Singles

Twice Upon a Time - The Singles is the second singles compilation released by Siouxsie and the Banshees. It follows the same format as Once Upon a Time/The Singles, presenting the songs in chronological order. Twice picks up where Once left off (in 1982), and it includes several hits not included on regular Banshees studio albums. Instead of the studio version released as a single, "The Last Beat of My Heart" is presented as a live recording, from their performance at Lollapalooza in Seattle. Also appearing on CD for the first time here is "Face to Face", a song from the soundtrack of the film Batman Returns. "Fear of the Unknown" also appears as a "House of Fear" remix which is significantly different from the original version. The collection is missing the 1987 single "Song from the Edge of the World", which was included on a later hits collection.

Reception
J. D. Considine of The Baltimore Sun wrote that the album "follows a more twisted path" than Once Upon a Time, chronicling "the band from cult-level acclaim to something resembling pop accessibility." Considine added that "the most amazing thing about this progression is how little the group alters its approach along the way."

A review of the album in The Advocate notes that the compilation demonstrates that the band that had made "consistently compelling music", and highlights "the group's knack for creating smart arrangements of non-Banshees music" such as on "Dear Prudence", "This Wheel's on Fire", and "The Passenger". In a 4 out of 5 review for Select, Dave Morrison noted that after 1982, the band "produced some of their best work in this period: superbly crafted vignettes of dark-hued psychedelic melodrama."

Writing for MusicHound in 1999, Doug Pullen recommended the compilation as the first Banshees album that listeners should consider since most of their studio albums sounded dated. He said that Twice Upon a Time "at least displays a clarity of vision and conviction that runs through the group's groovy gothic-art-punk rock".

Track listing
All tracks by Siouxsie and the Banshees, except 4 by Lennon–McCartney, 10 by Bob Dylan-Rick Danko, 11 by James Osterberg-Ricky Gardiner, 12 by Harry Warren-Johnny Mercer-Siouxsie and the Banshees and 18 by Siouxsie and the Banshees-Danny Elfman.

 * 1) "Fireworks"
 * 2) "Slowdive"
 * 3) "Melt!"
 * 4) "Dear Prudence"
 * 5) "Swimming Horses"
 * 6) "Dazzle"
 * 7) "Overground" [Re-recorded version from The Thorn EP]
 * 8) "Cities in Dust"
 * 9) "Candyman"
 * 10) "This Wheel's on Fire"
 * 11) "The Passenger"
 * 12) "Peek-a-Boo"
 * 13) "The Killing Jar"
 * 14) "The Last Beat of My Heart" [live at Lollapalooza, Seattle, 28 August 1991]
 * 15) "Kiss Them for Me"
 * 16) "Shadowtime"
 * 17) "Fear (of the Unknown)" [House of Fear Mix by Junior Vasquez]
 * 18) "Face to Face"

title: Twice Upon a Time – The Singles


text:
Rowing Canada Aviron

Rowing Canada Aviron (RCA), formally the Canadian Amateur Rowing Association, is a non-profit organization recognized by the Government of Canada and the Canadian Olympic Committee as the national governing body for the sport of rowing in Canada. RCA represents 15,000 registered members at all levels, including novices, juniors, university students, adaptive, seniors and masters, whether they row for recreation, health and fitness or competition.

RCA was founded as The Canadian Association of Amateur Oarsmen in 1880 by the rowing clubs then in existence to coordinate and regulate the sport of amateur rowing. In 1974, its name was changed to the Canadian Amateur Rowing Association.

RCA is a member of the Canadian Olympic Committee and the International Rowing Federation (FISA), the international federation for rowing.

title: Rowing Canada Aviron


text:
Dixie National Forest

Dixie National Forest is a United States National Forest in Utah with headquarters in Cedar City. It occupies almost two million acres (8,000 km2) and stretches for about 170 mi across southern Utah. The largest national forest in Utah, it straddles the divide between the Great Basin and the Colorado River. In descending order of forestland area it is located in parts of Garfield, Washington, Iron, Kane, Wayne, and Piute counties. The majority (over 55%) of forest acreage lies in Garfield County.

Elevations vary from 2800 ft above sea level near St. George, Utah to 11322 ft at Blue Bell Knoll on Boulder Mountain. The southern rim of the Great Basin, near the Colorado River, provides spectacular scenery. Colorado River canyons are made up of multi-colored cliffs and steep-walled gorges.

The Forest is divided into four geographic areas. High altitude forests in gently rolling hills characterize the Markagunt, Paunsaugunt, and Aquarius Plateaus. Boulder Mountain, one of the largest high-elevation plateaus in the United States, is dotted with hundreds of small lakes 10000 - 11000 ft above sea level. The forest includes the Pine Valley Mountains north of St. George.

The Forest has many climatic extremes. Precipitation ranges from 10 in in the lower elevations to more than 40 in per year near Brian Head 11307 ft. At the higher elevations, most of the annual precipitation falls as snow. Thunderstorms are common during July and August and produce heavy rains. In some areas, August is the wettest month of the year.

Temperature extremes can be impressive, with summer temperatures exceeding 100 F near St. George and winter lows exceeding -30 F on the plateau tops.

The vegetation of the Forest grades from sparse, desert-type plants at the lower elevations to stand of low-growing pinyon pine and juniper dominating the mid-elevations. At the higher elevations, aspen and conifers such as pine, spruce, and fir predominate.

The Dixie Forest Reserve was established on September 25, 1905 by the United States General Land Office. The name was derived from the local description of the warm southern part of Utah as "Dixie". In 1906 the U.S. Forest Service assumed responsibility for the lands, and on March 4, 1907 it became a National Forest. The western part of Sevier National Forest was added on July 1, 1922, and all of Powell National Forest on October 1, 1944.

Visitor centers
There are local ranger district offices and visitor centers in
 * Cedar City, with Duck Creek Visitor Center
 * Escalante, with Escalante Interagency Visitor Center
 * Pine Valley, in St. George, with Pine Valley Heritage Center
 * Powell, in Panguitch, with Red Canyon Visitor Center

Wilderness areas
There are four officially designated wilderness areas within Dixie National Forest that are part of the National Wilderness Preservation System.
 * Ashdown Gorge Wilderness
 * Box-Death Hollow Wilderness
 * Cottonwood Forest Wilderness
 * Pine Valley Mountain Wilderness

title: Dixie National Forest


text:
Anu (disambiguation)

Anu is a Mesopotamian god.

Anu or ANU may also refer to:

Mythology

 * Anu (goddess), an Irish goddess
 * Anu, a son of King Yayati in Hindu mythology

People

 * Anu (name), a given name and surname (including a list of people with the name)
 * Anu (actress), an Indian actress
 * Queen Anu (died 1696), Mongolian noblewoman and warrior
 * Anu (game character) or A Nu, a character in the video game The Legend of Sword and Fairy
 * ANU (band), a Tibetan rap group from Mainland China.

Abbreviations

 * Australian National University
 * American National University
 * Anant National University, a university in India
 * Andong National University, a university in South Korea
 * IATA airport code for V. C. Bird International Airport, Antigua

Other uses

 * Anu (film), 2009 Kannada film
 * Anu (1998 film), a 1998 Indian film by Satarupa Sanyal
 * aṇu, the Sanskrit term for "smallest particle of matter" in Indian atomism, pronounced and more commonly spelled as "arnoo".
 * ānu, a Sanskrit term for "man" or "foreigner" and the name of a Vedic tribe
 * Anu (fly), a genus of Hoverfly
 * anu, a.k.a. mashua, an Andean vegetable
 * Anu-Hkongso language, a Sino-Tibetan language of Burma
 * Anu Jur, a.k.a. the Akhurian River
 * ANU – Museum of the Jewish People, a Jewish museum located at Tel Aviv University, Ramat Aviv

title: Anu (disambiguation)


text:
Khardaha

Khardaha is a city and a municipality of North 24 Parganas district in the Indian state of West Bengal. It is close to Kolkata and also a part of the area covered by Kolkata Metropolitan Development Authority (KMDA).

History
Initially Khardah was a part of South Barrackpore and West Barrackpore municipalities established in 1877. South Barrackpore Municipality was renamed Khardah Municipality in 1920.

Location
Khardaha is located at 22.72°N, 88.38°W. It has an average elevation of 15 m. It has a railway station on the Sealdah-Ranaghat section, sandwiched between Sodepur and Sukchar (to the south) and Titagarh (to the north). The railway station divides the town into two parts - the eastern part is known as Rahara, while the western part is known as Khardaha.

Khardaha is bounded by Titagarh to the north, Patulia and Bandipur to the east, Panihati to the south and the Hooghly River to the west.

96% of the population of Barrackpore subdivision (partly presented in the map alongside, all places marked in the map are linked in the full screen map) lives in urban areas. In 2011, it had a density of population of 10,967 per km2. The subdivision has 16 municipalities and 24 census towns.

Population
As per the 2011 Census of India, Khardaha had a total population of 108,496, of which 54,879 (51%) were male and 53,617 (49%) were female. 7,332 were under 6 years old. The total number of literates in Khardaha was 95,469 (94.37% of the population over 6 years).

As of the 2001 India census, Khardaha had a population of 116,252. Males constituted 53% of the population and females 47%. Khardaha had an average literacy rate of 81%, higher than the national average of 59.5%: male literacy was 83% and female literacy was 79%. 8% of the population was under 6 years old.

Kolkata Urban Agglomeration
The following Municipalities, Census Towns and other locations in Barrackpore subdivision were part of Kolkata Urban Agglomeration in the 2011 census: Kanchrapara (M), Jetia (CT), Halisahar (M), Balibhara (CT), Naihati (M), Bhatpara (M), Kaugachhi (CT), Garshyamnagar (CT), Garulia (M), Ichhapur Defence Estate (CT), North Barrackpur (M), Barrackpur Cantonment (CB), Barrackpore (M), Jafarpur (CT), Ruiya (CT), Titagarh (M), Khardaha (M), Bandipur (CT), Panihati (M), Muragachha (CT) New Barrackpore (M), Chandpur (CT), Talbandha (CT), Patulia (CT), Kamarhati (M), Baranagar (M), South Dumdum (M), North Dumdum (M), Dum Dum (M), Noapara (CT), Babanpur (CT), Teghari (CT), Nanna (OG), Chakla (OG), Srotribati (OG) and Panpur (OG).

Police station
Khardaha police station under Barrackpore Police Commissionerate has jurisdiction over Khardaha Municipal area and Barrackpore II CD Block.

Infrastructure
As per the District Census Handbook 2011, Khardaha covered an area of 6.87 km2, with both open and closed drains. It had 115 medicine shops, 37 primary schools, one middle school, 13 secondary/senior secondary schools and one college for arts/science/commerce, one orphanage home, one stadium, three cinemas, three public libraries and three reading rooms. It had 6 bank branches.

Industry
Major industries in Khardaha are:
 * Khardah Jute Mill was nationalised in 1980 and made a part of National Jute Manufactures Corporation Limited. It was closed in 2004 and after implementation of a revival scheme Khardah Jute Mill was reopened in 2011. The Union Cabinet, at a meeting held on 10 October 2018, chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, gave the green signal for the closure of National Jute Manufacturers Corporation Ltd. (NJMC) along with its subsidiary Birds Jute and Exporters Ltd. (BJEL). NJMC had been incurring losses for several years and was under reference to BIFR since 1993. The Mills of NJMC which were proposed for revival, namely, Kinnison Mill at Titagarh, Khardah Mill at Khardah and RBHM Mill at Katihar were under suspension since August 2016.
 * Electrosteel Castings Ltd. started manufacturing cast iron pipes at Khardaha in 1955, and evolved as a pioneer in ductile iron pipe manufacturing. It produces 280,000 tonnes of ductile iron pipes annually and exports over half of its production. At Khardaha it also produces ductile iron fittings (5,000 tonnes per annum) and 250,000 tonnes of pig iron annually for captive use. Umang Kejriwal and Mayank Kejriwal have been managing directors since 1979.

Transport
B.T. Road passes through Khardaha.

78 is the most frequent bus in Khardaha which runs from Barrackpore Court to Esplanade. Besides many buses connect Khardaha to various neighbourhoods - 81/1 (Barasat to Rajchandrapur), C28 and S32 (Barrackpore Court to Howrah Station), S11 (Nilganj to Esplanade), E32 (Nilganj to Howrah Station) etc.

Khardaha railway station on the Sealdah-Ranaghat line is 18.5 km from Sealdah railway station. It is part of the Kolkata Suburban Railway system.

Commuters
Around a total of 3.2 million people from all around the city commute to Kolkata daily for work. In the Sealdah-Krishnanagar section there are 34 trains that carry commuters from 30 railway stations. In the Sealdah-Shantipur section 32 trains carry commuters from 29 stations.

Education
Rahara Ramakrishna Mission Boys' Home High School has facilities for teaching from class 1 to 12 (Higher secondary) in both Bengali and English mediums. It is an all boys' school. Khardaha also has an all boys' college which is called, Ramakrishna Mission Vivekananda Centenary College, a part of Ramakrishna Math and Mission. Both graduate and post graduate courses are taught. But, only Science subjects are offered here.

An all girls' school is located right by the side of Rahara Mission, called, Bhabhanath Institution for Girls. Kalyannagar Vidyapith, another school is also located in the area. There are also two High school situated at right side, they are Shibnath High School for Boys and Priyanath Girls School for Girls. Recently another English Medium school for secondary section has been established in the name of Khardaha Indira Memorial School

Health
Khardaha Municipal hospital or Balaram sevamandir is the main Govt. funded hospital in Khardaha. There are many private medical dispensaries with their own doctors and specialists scattered through town.

Culture

Every year in the month of December, Khardaha municipality organizes a flower show. Khardaha Sanskritik Utsav (Cultural Festival) is organized on a regular basis, where performers from all over India come to entertain people. Khardaha book fair is a culturally significant event that takes place every year.

Nityanandu Mahaprabhu, a primary religious figure within the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition of Bengal, came and settled in a hut named Kunjabati at Khardaha.

26 Shiva temples were built on the bank of the Ganges, in the early 19th century by Ramhari Biswas and his son, Prankrishna.

David J. McCutchion describes several temples at Khardaha:
 * Shyama Sundar temple (18th century?) – renovated atchala with porch on triple archway
 * Mahaprabhu temple – straight corniced navaratna structure
 * Rasmancha – low octagonal structure with 16 turrets

Rabindranath Tagore's House but today only the entry Gate remains.

title: Khardaha