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Portal:Aviation/Anniversaries/September 20

September 20

 * 2012 – At least 71 people die in Raqqa, Syria, when a Syrian Air Force plane bombs a gasoline (petrol) station.

 * 2012 – After takeoff from Damascus International Airport in Damascus, Syria, a Syrian Air Airbus A320 collides in mid-air with a Syrian Mil Mi-17 (NATO reporting name "Hip") helicopter. The helicopter crashes, while the A320 returns to the airport safely despite a damaged tail.

 * 2009 – One U.S. service member was killed and 12 others are injured when a UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter goes down inside of Joint Base Balad.

 * 1999 – A Swedish Air Force Saab JAS-39 Gripen, 39156, '56', of F7 Wing, 2nd Sqn., crashes into Lake Vänern at about 1430 hrs. during an air-to-air combat exercise. Aircraft sank in about 260 feet of water (80 m). Pilot ejected safely and was recovered by Hkp 10 SAR helicopter. The accident was caused by a design flaw in the plane's control system, rendering it in a stalled mode after passing another plane's vortex. This was the first loss of a Gripen since the type became operational.

 * 1995 – Just after making a supersonic pass close by the starboard side of the USS John Paul Jones, Grumman F-14A-110-GR Tomcat, BuNo 161146, 'NH 112', of VF-213 from the USS Abraham Lincoln, explodes in flight from catastrophic compressor failure, both crew ejecting, suffering burns to the upper body. Crew recovered. Plane goes down in the Central Pacific, ~800 miles W of Guam, and 55 miles from the carrier. Footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qMtnFtB38I

 * 1993 – Erich Alfred “Bubi” Hartmann, German pilot died (b. 1922) Nicknamed “The Blond Knight Of Germany” by friends and “The Black Devil” by his enemies, Hartmann is the most successful fighter ace in the history of aerial combat. He scored 352 aerial victories (of which 345 were flown by the Soviet Air Force, and 260 of which were fighters) 1,404 combat missions and engaging in aerial combat 825 times while serving with the Luftwaffe in World War II.

 * 1989 – A USAir Boeing 737 aborts a takeoff in New York and slides into the East River. Two people are killed.

 * 1989 – USAir Flight 5050, a Boeing 737, overruns the runway after a tire on a nosewheel bursts; two passengers die.

 * 1973 – Musicians Jim Croce and Maury Muehleisen are killed in a Beechcraft E18S due to fly from Natchitoches, Louisiana to Sherman, Texas. The plane collides with a tree at the end of the runway of Natchitoches Regional Airport.

 * 1971 – First flight of the VFW VAK 191B

 * 1969 – An Air Vietnam Douglas C-54D-10-DC Skymaster), XV-NUG, c/n 10860, collided on approach to landing with an American USAF McDonnell F-4 Phantom II near Da Nang, Vietnam. 77 died.

 * 1965 – A UH-2 Seasprite makes the U. S. Navy’s first helicopter rescue of a pilot downed in North Vietnam.

 * 1958 – A Rolls-Royce test pilot, Mr. K.R. Sturt, flying the prototype Avro Vulcan VX770 in an airshow at RAF Syerston pulls up too hard after a high-speed flyby and exceeds the airframe's structural limits, collapsing the plane's right wing. The craft spirals out of control and crashes, killing the entire aircrew and 3 people on the ground. VX770 was known to have had a weaker wing structure then production aircraft. The aircraft had been testing the Rolls-Royce Conway installation and was returning from a test flight via-Syerston.

 * 1955 – First flight of the Nord 1500 Griffon (Griffon I)

 * 1951 – First flight of the Grumman F-9 Cougar.

 * 1948 – First prototype USAF North American XB-45 Tornado, 45-59479, in a dive test at Muroc Air Force Base, California, to test design load factor, suffers engine explosion, tearing off cowling panels that shear several feet from the horizontal stabilizer, aircraft pitches up, and both wings tear off under negative g load. Crew has no ejection seats, and George Krebs and Nick Piccard are killed.

 * 1946 – First flight of the Martin P4M Mercator

 * 1945 – An experimental Gloster Meteor with Rolls-Royce Trent engines makes the first turboprop-powered flight.

 * 1943 – First flight of the de Havilland Vampire prototype LZ548

 * 1943 – (overnight) To disrupt the German evacuation of Corsica, Allied Northwest African Air Force Wellington, Mitchell, and Liberator bombers begin strikes against airfields, shipping, and port facilities at Bastia, Corsica, and Leghorn and Pisa, Italy.

 * 1939 – Sgt F Letchard a gunner of the RAF 88, in a Fairey Battle, claimed the first RAF victory of the war after he shot down a German Bf 109 during a patrol near Aachen.

 * 1936 – Tupolev TB-3-4AM-34FRN with A. B. Yumashev at the controls set a payload-to-altitude record of 12,000 kg (26,455 lb) to 2,700 m (8,858 feet).

 * 1933 – First flight of the Boeing P-29 (Boeing Model 264)

 * 1929 – Western Canada Airways pilot ?Punch? Dickins began operations to locate and bring out the missing MacAlpine Survey. The group was ultimately successfully rescued and all members of the expedition and the crews of the rescue aircraft were brought out safely.

 * 1928 – First prototype Parnall Pipit, N232, suffers structural failure of port tailplane in flight, crash lands at Martlesham Heath, Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment (A&AEE) test pilot Sqn. Ldr. Jack Noakes (AFC, MM) survives, despite suffering broken neck when thrown from the somersaulting airframe.

 * 1922 – First flight over 200 mph (322 km/h) made by Sadi Lecointe in a Nieuport-Delage NiD 29.

 * 1920 – Schneider Trophy race flown at Venice, Italy. Lt. Luigi Bolgna in a Savoia S.12 is the only starter. Speed 172.6 km/h (107.3 mph).

 * 1904 – Wilbur Wright makes the first circuit flight, in the Flyer II

 * 1902 – The Wright brothers make the first of nearly 1,000 glides on their modified No. 3 glider in Kill Devil Hills, North Carolina. It is this glider, made of spruce wood and cloth, which incorporates for the first time the flight controls of the modern airplane.

 * 1874 – Du Temple builds a steam-powered monoplane which achieves a short hop after gaining speed by rolling down a ramp. It carries a human passenger whose identity is no longer known.


text:
User talk:Evilbu

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
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 * How to write a great article
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The sub- and superscripts denote covariant versus contravariant vectors (covariance and contravariance). A mathematician will try to tell you some complicated stuff about these kinds of vectors, but for special relativity (in general relativity this becomes much more complicated) all you need to know is that if

 * $$ v^\mu = (ct, x, y, z)$$

then

 * $$ v_\mu = (-ct, x, y, z)$$

So that the inner product works out

 * $$ v^\mu v_\mu = -c^2 t^2 + x^2 + y^2 + z^2 $$

If you have any questions, physics or Wikipedia, feel free to ask me on my talk page. --Laura Scudder | Talk 15:34, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

need help
I would like to help to make some mathematical articles but I have a silly problem. Where can i just start a new article?

 * See Requested articles for information on how to start new articles. Talrias (t | e | c) 17:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * It's fine to reply here - simply click "edit this page" and type in your reply here. In reply to "how does this help, it allows me to request math pages and others, but i don't find where i can start an article with a completely new title I thought of": at the current time on Wikipedia you have to request the creation of a page by giving your suggested article name, and some text (with sources) to put on it. After it has been created, you can then develop it further. Talrias (t | e | c) 17:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

i can reply here but how do you know when i reply, is there a notification system? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_quadrangle I don't understand? I could immediately continue working on the page? So have I created my first legitimate page on wikipedia now? Or is it likely to be removed and taken out of the category' incidende geometry' now due to unviability?

 * Yes, that's right. You should edit other related articles and link to the article you've created (by typing generalized quadrangle ). Talrias (t | e | c) 01:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I am very grateful for all the help, you certainly are open to newbies but I still don't see what is the most legitimate way to start. On the oval( geometry) page someone just made a link to ovals over finite fields about which there is no page yet (i asked about it). He said the 'red line' was the easiest way to start a new page. So what is the best way to start now? Requesting? red line?Evilbu 18:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

 * You should be able to click on a red link, and start an article from scratch. Talrias (t | e | c) 19:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Style tips
Hi and thank you for the new generalized quadrangle article. A small style tip: variables should be italic. So, when writing math, instead of s, one can write $$s$$ or s. Looks nicer. :) Thanks. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:38, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi and thanks for the tips. I am very interested in wikipedia but this article and the one about polar spaces are my first. Therefore I have some more questions : do you mean change the variables into italic or only the parts that aren't between the two math signs (thus outside the math text?). What have you changed precisely already? Secondly, about the linking, suppose the word 'polar spaces' pops up but my article is called 'polar space', how do i make the correct link? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evilbu (talk • contribs)

 * And one more tip, it is good to sign your posts, with four tildas, see the welcome message above.

 * Yeah, you need to make italic the parts which are not between math signs, or otherwise, put them between math signs, so either this: $$x$$ or this: x for italic (the latter one has two simple quotes ' on each side).

 * To make the link to "polar spaces: you can do either polar spaces or polar spaces . The first is preferable. The second is good if your link and the name you want to use for it are very different. Cheers, Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 16:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

 * And to see what somebody changed in Generalized quadrangle, you visit that page, and click on the "history" tab at the top, then click on "last" to compare changes. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 16:26, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi! Oleg should also point out that the math articles on WP have a certain "house style", and there is even a style guideline. There's also a considerable amount of discussion about the target audience of an article, and how to make an article accessbile to general readership. See WikiProject Mathematics for details. linas 18:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hope we did not overwhelm you. :) Take it easy, you will learn it all eventually, no need to rush. :) Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 18:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

nice content overview
when writing my generalized quadrangle page i was trying to make it look like all those others pages : with a nice content overview however i copied it badly? i don't get a nice content overview in the beginning? what did i do wrong? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Evilbu (talk • contribs).
 * I think the table of contents only appears when you get to a certain size, since for small articles it's easy to see the page anyway. But you can force it in by putting in in the article. --pgk( talk ) 22:26, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

translation
English is not my native language, that is Dutch, and I have an account on both wikipedia's. Therefore, I can contribute by translating from Dutch to English (and vice versa?). However, is there any chance at all of copyright problems by just translating from one wikipedia to another??Evilbu 17:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi, Evilbu. There is no problem concerning copyright with translating directly from one wikipedia to another. Let me know if you have any other questions. :) Gflores Talk 17:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Your questions
I replied on User talk:Charles Matthews. By the way, you can use four tildas to sign your name, see the welcome at the top. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Quartic
Thank you for the Quadric (Projective Geometry) article. As you noticed, I moved it to quadric (projective geometry), per the Wikipedia conventions about capitals. And I have just a few tips. There are some rather big formulas in there, which need to be moved on their own line. I did some, and some are left. :) Thanks and I hope you like it here. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 00:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And one more tip, one should make variables italic, so

 * 2 F(v)=0 instead of

2 F(v)=0. Cheers, Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 00:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The thing with the variables is that I am mostly confused. Should I always use italic, or only for variabeles in nonmath. And when should i refrain from using mathtext? Evilbu 01:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Per the math style manual, you can do either italic, or math environnment (LaTeX). But it is good to avoid LaTeX when it yields to PNG images instead of HTML, unless the formula is on its own line. So, formulas like $$\{x_1, x_2, x_3, \cdots, x_n \}$$ which become PNG, are not so nice as html equivalent, {x1, x2, x3, ..., xn}.

 * But that's just a recommendation, some people like html, and some like LaTeX. Either way, one should either make variables in math mode, like $$x$$, or italic, like this: x . Cheers, Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 01:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

irregular online/offline status
I understand there has been work on the database during recent hours

However, is it normal that when I now go to wikipedia main page, i need to sign in still, but when i type 'generalized quadrangle', i jump to the page and I am logged in as evilbu (I always click on the remember me button)

How is this possible that I am not online and the next page I visit tells me I am without having typed in my password?

213.224.128.98 22:15, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Perhaps your computer had the Main Page in its history without your being logged in, and wikipedia has you logged in, which is noted as soon as you go to another page. Since you type in 'generalized quadrangle' it probably goes to the site from the server and not just your history. Just a theory, though. Jimbo (not THE Jimbo) 23:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

there is more to it than that these problems were never there before like my talk page, it gives red for every math symbol there used to be, should i wait this out?

 * I'm not seeing any red math symbols on this talk page. Were you talking about another location? You may want to go to your preferences to see if you have something strange set up.

Jimbo (not THE Jimbo) 01:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia has been super-flakey the last 3 days, and unusable at times. This is highly unusual. linas 02:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia is still recovering from the server crash of yesterday - please be patient and expect some irregular behaviour. The math symbols are torublesome becasue the cache was wiped and now the servers have to regenerate thousands of maths symbols from scratch.--Commander Keane 03:16, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Mathematics
You may enjoy the collegiality of the discussions on the talk page of WikiProject Mathematics. We also have a WikiProject Physics if that is of interest to you. linas 02:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Welcome to WikiProject mathematics! Dmharvey 18:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation Links
Hi Evilbu,

What I changed on the Quadric (projective geometry) page was simply an incorrectly directed link to a disambiguation page. The link to "field" had been linking to field, which is the disambiguation page for the word "field", but I changed it to link to the correct page, field (mathematics).

What you went to when you clicked on the "you can help" link should have taken you to Disambiguation pages with links, which is a wiki fixup project. The project works to fix all wikilinks that link to disambiguation pages, and instead have the links link the specific article that they refer to. Let me know if you have any other questions, and I hope you continue contributing to Wikipedia!

-- Nataly a 12:21, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

As an afterthought, in the future, if you want to know what someone's edit changed, when you click on the "history" tab, if you click the "last" link next to any of the edits, it will show you the difference between the previous version and the version they changed.

Page moved to Fehriye Erdal
Its as simple as it sounds. Use the move button at the top of the page. Keep up the good work, but please write more on the topic in concern. I am afraid that it might go up for deletion debate as it provides very less information. -Ambuj Saxena (talk) 18:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

This is my first biography on Wikipedia. Please inspect the page about Erdal again and tell me if it satisfies the basic Wikipedia norms.

Evilbu 20:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikilinks
Hi. Just wondering, you do know that you can link to articles with double brackets, like Catenary, right? Your recent edits at the math refdesk seem to suggest otherwise. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 16:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Userpage design
I usually just look for a page I like and then steal their code and make it my own. I do have one useful suggestion for userboxes. You can group any set of userboxes just like the Babel language box does with Userboxtop and Userboxbottom. There's examples at Userboxes. Hope that helps. — Laura Scudder ☎ 18:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Reply about formula formatting
I replied to your question on my talk page linas 23:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Reply re: Ref Desk revert
I am VERY sorry. I was attempting to remove a hateful question some anon had put in one of the HIV questions, and you must have added the Lake Superior question while I was doing that. I should have edited the whole page rather than reverting, or checked the results of my rv. I honestly can't apologize enough. --LarryMac 12:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Fehriye Erdal
Hello. I don't think we needed that. The article did not mention that she was from an Alevi family. The important point about her background was this certain fact. Kurdish Alevis, especially ones from the Sivas Province and further to the west, do not have an obvious following for PKK. As for the Islamic fundamentalism part, etc., ha ha, this is only the problem of these Belgians you talk about. Ciao! --Behemoth 18:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Reference desk
Hello. I tried to answer your question about Lebanon in the Reference Desk. Although I'm not an expert, but I'll be happy to clarify some things for you. CG 20:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Page move
Hi, I guess you proably know by now but when you cut-and-paste move a page it leaves the history behind, using the "move" button doesn't.  Cheers, Rich Farmbrough 14:52 24  August 2006 (GMT).

About my question about the water dispute between Israel and Lebanon
I'm sorry. For this question I don't have much details about this event. But I think you can count on the answer they gave you. :-) CG 07:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

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From Loomis
I guess I just missed your question. I rarely if ever ignore the challenge of an intelligent question. In fact, I'm sure you've noticed in my posts that I tend to repeat my philosophy over and over (perhaps too much!). I strongly believe in what's called the Socratic Method. By that I mean that I believe that the best way at arriving at (something at least close to) the truth is by asking questions, rather than stating opinions.

Unless a question is completely insulting or moronic, I consider it a challenge to answer it. If I can't answer it properly, I force myself to rethink the matter.

Your question was a good one, and it may take a bit of research on my part because, while I do believe I have a good deal of knowledge on the subject, you've touched on a couple of details I wasn't completely familiar with. Maybe I was just being lazy by overlooking your question. Or maybe it was because I just felt the rest of you guys have had enough of my opinionated and controversial posts, that I thought I should just leave it alone, and give you guys a break.

In any case, I'll definitely give it some good thought and I promise to get back to you, ok! (Don't worry, don't feel like you're giving me "extra work". I'm actually flattered that you'd be interested in my response! I'll be more than glad to develop an answer, especially knowing that someone is actually interested in it!)

I just have a few questions for you. I'm just curious about a few things. For one, I'm very curious about the name "Evilbu". Does it mean something in Flemish? (Is the "Flemish language" really any different from Dutch? I speak French and when I visited Belgium, their French was completely comprehensible, with the exception of a few odd words like "septant" rather than "soixant-dix" for "seventy", etc). Also, you said something about you "being too young". You don't have to answer any of these questions, I respect privacy. But if you don't mind, how old are you? Finally, you say you're "not a Zionist". That can mean one of two different things. One is that you're simply not a Zionist the same way as I'm simply not a Belgian. I've got nothing against Belgians, I'm just not Belgian. Similarly, you could have just been saying that you're simply not a Zionist. You've got nothing against Zionism, you just simply aren't one. Of course it could also mean something very different. It could mean that you're against Zionism.

But that's ok too. I'm sure you know this, but the Jewish religion is a non-proselytizing religion. What that means is that we don't go around knocking on people's doors trying to convince them to become Jewish. In fact, we don't even find it necessary to explain or rationalize our faith to others. What we believe is what we believe, and what you believe is what you believe. No need to "sell" our religion to anyone else.

The reason why I'm bringing this up is because unlike Judaism, Zionism, to a certain extent, has to be explained, clarified and rationalized to others. So what I'm saying is that while I won't even bother explaining Judaism (unless of course you're curious, and even then, it would be in a totally "interfaith" manner, respecting whatever you are and not trying to change it,) I believe it's my duty as a Zionist and as a Jew to help you to understand why we, as Jews, believe so dearly, that it is so incredibly important that we have a homeland, a safe haven.

Shalom/Peace/Vrede, Evilbu,

Lewis (Loomis)

 * Evilbu! I just can't keep up with the facsinating topics you keep bringing up! I want to answer the Zionism thing, and I promise I will, but I had no idea about what was going on in Belgium. It's particularly interesting to me, because as a Canadian, living in Quebec, I thought we were the only ones to make a whole issue out of something so ridiculous as linguistic/cultural differences, despite the fact that we share so much else in common.

 * Of course I'm sure Canadian politics is too boring for the rest of the world to pay attention to, and I feel blessed to live in such a boring country! We just constantly bicker over silly things like the language that commercial signs should be in, and whether it's right or wrong to ban the use of English for the sake of promoting the more vulnerable French culture...it may be silly, but at least it's totally peaceful.

 * There's actually a very strong separatist movement here in Quebec. We're the only one of the ten Canadian provinces that has a majority French speaking population. But Quebec also happens to be about a quarter of the population of Canada, even though it's only one of ten provinces. To make the whole thing even more complicated, I'm in a rather peculiar position. Despite living in a mainly French province, I'm a member of the Quebec "Anglophone" community, which makes up about 20% of the province.

 * It's a total mess. Many (but definitely not all) of the Francophone Quebecers would like to separate from Canada and form an independent country. We've had two referendums on it. In 1980, the separatists lost 60%-40%. In 1995 there was another referendum and the separatists just barely lost by a hair! They lost by something like 49.5%-50.5%!

 * But it's always been peaceful. The absolute worst it got was back in 1970, during the October Crisis. A particularly radical seperatist faction, the FLQ, kidnapped and murdered one politician and I believe one postman was killed as well, by a bomb placed in a mailbox. But the mainstream moderate separatists, the Parti Québécois, led by a very decent man, René Levesque though I may reject his political aspirations, was wise and decent enough to immediately condemn all violent acts whatsoever. That's basically the Canadian/Québecois way. Our politicians bicker and bicker, but at a social level, the French and English actually get along quite well. I love the Québecois people. They're among the most decent, warm, pacifist people in the world. So some of them think they should separate from Canada, and they'll discuss it in the friendliest and most civil ways possible over a beer at a pub any time you wish. It's really the politicians that are the trouble-makers.

 * I don't know if you can relate to any of this, and I don't know if the situation in Belgium is as silly and completely pacifist. Perhaps it's a lot more serious and potentially violent. I just thought I'd introduce you to another place in the world where there's another dispute over language that most people find too boring to bother reporting in the news.

 * On the one hand, while such differences in places like Israel or Montenegro can lead to such tragic bloodshed, I just thought you might like to see a lighter side.

 * While Canadian politics may be incredibly dull, once again I feel incredibly blessed to live in such a dull country. If only more people were aware of the "dull", "boring" Canadian way we deal with such potentially violent issues, the world would be a far greater place. (A lot more boring though!)

 * I should just say that it's my New Year this weekend so I might be a bit busy, but I'd still love to get back to the Zionist question.

 * Take care, Evilbu,

 * Lewis

Hey Evilbu (I'm sorry, but it feels a bit silly calling you that, but on the other hand, I totally respect privacy).

We seem to be getting caught in tangents. However I'm a bit concerned. You mentioned: "I couldn't resist getting back at that Canada remark :(". The language and the sad face make me wonder if I somehow upset you unwittingly. I hope I didn't.

In any case, perhaps all these tangents can all be drawn together. Though we're talking about three different situations, the Quebec situation, the Belgian situation, and the Israeli situation, perhaps we can somehow draw them all together and learn somewhat from each other.

The three situations are the same in the sense that they all involve cultural differences, but are radically different in the way these cultural differences are dealt with.

In Canada, the whole thing is dealt with in an incredibly civilized and non-violent manner. Of course the Israeli situation is unfortunately the opposite. I would only hope that the Belgian situation is closer to the Canadian than the Israeli.

Your comments actually forced me to do quite bit of research on what's going on in your country! I had no idea it was so contentious. But I won't get into all that now, we can discuss it later. I just feel that by doing so I'd be further stalling on answering your original questions.

I'll reproduce them for convenience, and deal with them one piece at a time.

"What I still don't get is when the "State of Israel" declared "independence", what was it? Was it a formal declaration with explicit boundaries?"

That's an interesting question. I'd say though, that the concept of a "State of Israel" was far more conceptually than territorially oriented. In fact, many early Zionists considered many other rather bizarre parts of the world to create a Jewish State. The point wasn't to make a "particular piece of land" into a Jewish State, but rather, to get ANY piece of land to serve as a safe haven for Jews. Therefore, in answer to that question, I'd say that when the "State of Israel" declared "independence", though by then it was clear that it would be in Palestine, the particular boundaries were considered of very little importance. To be blunt, we were willing to take WHATEVER we could get. It really didn't matter much. So long as it was OURS, a place where we could welcome and provide safe haven to our fellow Jews, and of course SECURE, in the sense that we wouldn't be vulnerable to attack by any of our "neighbours", I feel that's it's safe to say that the original founders of Israel COULDN'T CARE LESS about the details of its particular boundaries. That's why we're so baffled when we offer, such as in Camp David II, pretty much ALL of the occuppied territories to the Palestinians, and they reject it, because it isn't EXACTLY what they want. But we didn't get EXACTLY what we wanted either. But that didn't bother us. ANYTHING was SOMETHING. To the Palestinians, however, it would appear that quite the opposite applies. ANYTHING short of EVERYTHING (including the current State of Israel), is NOTHING. That particular mentality is to me, the most fundamental reason why the Jews have a state, and the Palestinians don't.

So in answer to that question, "when the "State of Israel" declared "independence"", the particular boundaries were, at the time at least, rather irrelevant. The "Independent State of Israel" that was declared consisted of whatever the international community would allow it to have. If it was just some patchy state as defined by the 1947 UN partition plan, then so be it. We really didn't care. Just give us ANYTHING.

"Was there a plan to rule it democratically?"

As a matter of fact, I'd say no. There was no such "explicit plan" for Israel to be a democratic state. The whole idea that Israel would be democratic would seem to have been such an obvious "given", that it didn't even seem worth mentioning. Ask any pre-1948 Zionist about how the future state that he or she was fighting for would be governed, and he or she might have almost been insulted: "Democracy, of course! What else? We're civilized people! Not barbarians!". Of course I should back this up with a couple of points. First, Talmudic Law has long recognized the concept of democracy, among Rabbis, as providing a definitive answer to any Talmudic question. Second, though this may seem chauvinistic, it would be dishonest to not point it out. The European Enlightenment, with the concept of democratic governance that it entailed, was, to a certain degree, led by Jews (albeit, admittedly secular ones). Third, the Zionist struggle for the establishment of the State of Israel was led by two somewhat rival groups: The Irgun and the Hagganah. Many at the time predicted at the time that once Israel would be established, it would immediately descend into civil war, between those two factions. However, rather surprisingly to many, one independence was declared, both the Ergun and the Hahhanah immediately laid down their arms and embraced each other as fellow Israelis.

In fact, when I had first found out that Yitzchak Rabin had been assassinated, as tragic as it was, I so desperately wanted to hear that the assassin was an Arab, as the concept of a Jew killing a Jew was up to then so inconceiveable. When I found out that the assassin was actually a Jew, Yigal Amir, I was so incredibly dissappointed that it almost led me to tears. It's one thing for Arabs to kill Jews, but for a Jew to assassinate a fellow Jewish politician ... it's rather inexplicable, it's extremely hard to explain, but it dealt, to myself at least, a major blow. It almost, for a moment or two, made the whole concept of a "Jewish State" a farce. How could this happen? How can a Jew possibly kill another Jew?

I guess the whole reason I brought that whole episode up is just to show how certain unmentioned values, such as democractic governance, and the concept that "a Jew NEVER kills another Jew" are so ingrained into our consciousness, that we would never even bother to question it. It's just a "given". Yet, though it may have gone over as "just another political assassination" by the rest of the world, I'd like to make it clear that Rabin's assassination completely shook and traumatized all Zionists, perhaps more than any war Israel had ever gone through. While our many wars with the Arabs may have threatened our physical existence, they never threatened our soul. Rabin's assassination actually destroyed a certain part of our soul. It took away our innocence, our sense of pride in the fact that "We Jews, are above such things".

"Note that the nation of Israel also took ground after the Arab Israeli war that was not assigned to them (like southeast of the Gazastrip) by the UN partition plan? I find it hard to believe someone like David Ben-Gurion would declare the state of Israel to be modern-day Israel+West Bank+Gaza strip, AND plan to let it be ruled democratically without expelling anyone, because the country and its rule wouldn't have a Jewish character at all then???"

You're entirely right. First of all, that particular war (as all others), was basically the result of a threat to our existence. We never asked for it. We never wanted it. But we got it. As a result, yes, some territories were acquired by Israel. But dammit, why the hell did they have to attack us! Fuck'em! So we'll hold onto these small gains! Serves them right for attacking us for no good reason!

But of course you've brought up a much larger issue. The infamous "West Bank and Gaza Strip". Of course these areas are predominantly Arab. I suppose that in theory, if these territories were completely uninhabited, we'd love to have them! After all, the West Bank in particular is home to a vast amount of Jewish holy sites. But alas, it's inhabited almost exclusively by Arabs. Israel has "occuppied" these territories since 1967, just under 40 years. Yet in all this time, it has never annexed them. What that means is that Israel has never formally made them into "Israel Proper". The world condemns Israel as being an apartheid state. Why? In part because they hold onto territories where the occupants are not qualified to vote in Israeli elections. But the world is missing the most essential point. I'll repeat it. ISRAEL HAS NEVER ANNEXED THE OCCUPPIED TERRITORIES. It would be intolerable for decent Israelis to have a system whereby people would be disqualified from voting based merely on their race. Israeli Arabs (those who are Israeli citizens and live within "Israel Proper") are obviously qualified to vote and enjoy every possible civil liberty equally with their Jewish counterparts. But Israel has PURPOSELY chosen not to annex the territorties. Why? Well there are many reasons, but a big one is that by annexing the territories, according to the democratic principles that are so ingrained in the Israeli psyche, their conscience would simply not allow them to create an ACTUAL apartheid state. ALL CITIZENS MUST HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE. Anything less is reprehensible. So they're stuck in a catch 22. Abandon the territories and you basically get what you've already got in Gaza and southern Lebanon: a terrorist launching pad. Hold onto them and the world accuses you of racism, oppression, etc, etc, etc. What to do?

Here's a little secret that I'll leave with you, Evilbu: There is nothing that the vast majority of Israelis would like more than to get out of those God-damned territories! They're nothing but trouble and we never wanted them in the first place! If only the Palestinians would come to their senses and figure out a way to form a Palestinian State out of those damned territories without having to scare the shit out of us by electing a genocidal government like Hamas and constantly launching rockets into Israeli neighbourhoods and blowing themselves up for God-knows-why, we'd love nothing more than to have a peaceful Palestinian State as our good neighbours and friends. Unfortunately, I'm a realist, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. So I suppose in the meantime I'll just have to deal with such ignorant comments as the one I read today about how some questioner was "utterly disgusted" with America's support for Israel. Oh well. Don't worry about us too much though. We've been through situations a million times worse. This whole ridiculousness is actually funny in comparison.

Take care, Evilbu!

Lewis

Subtitle userbox
Hi Evilbu,

I saw your request for a userbox for subtitle-users and had a quick play: the result is in my sandbox.

Feel free to alter it as needed.

EVOCATIVEINTRIGUE TALKTOME | EMAILME 13:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Belgium
Hallo,

ik heb momenteel het initiatief genomen voor het nieuwe WikiProject Belgium, neem eens een kijkje en als je geïnteresseerd bent aarzel dan niet om je bij de deelnemers te zetten!

--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 00:16, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Hey,

 * ik ken het principe van commons... heb geprobeerd alles van nl. erop te zetten, maar het probleem is dat de originele toestemming voor de PD-licentie op het oude Gorki-forum staat, en dat is ter ziele gegaan... Met andere woorden we kunnen niet meer bewijzen dat dat volledig mag gebruikt worden. Maar ik vind wel ergens iemand die op een concert een fotootje gemaakt heeft...

 * Als het voor jou hetzelfde is mag het in het Ndl!

 * grtz, --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 18:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Yvesb 11:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC) I'd be glad to help you guys out on Belgium, I speak French indeed and just by looking at the list of proposed articles, it seems to me there are no other in your group ... How do we proceed ?

Yvesb 10:06, 7 October 2006 (UTC) Made a translation of the Isabelle Durant's French page. Not sure if this clearstream stuff is so important. You guys could improve it with the details from the Flemish page I guess.

Hermitian matrix talk page
Hi, I asked a couple questions related to your interesting post on the talk page.Rich 08:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject Belgium
Hallo Evilbu, als het nu nog om een ernstige discussie had gegaan dan had ik misschien meegedaan in plaats van weg te lopen. Maar als we al zo'n discussie krijgen over een template voor op een talk page, dan zakt de moed mij in de schoenen. Ik hou niet zo van die fanatieke discussies en ik laat mij te vaak meeslepen, dus ik ga het bij onderwerpen houden die iets verder van mijn bed liggen. Er is werk genoeg. Veel succes gewenst, ik hoop dat ik ongelijk krijg. Piet | Talk 15:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Réponse
Je ne sais pas qui a écrit ce qui se trouve sous Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. Il y a deux personnes en tout cas. La première personne ironise sur le fait que la France fait la promotion de la diversité culturelle à l'international et ne semble pas faire grand chose pour la diversité des langues sur son propre territoire. La deuxième personne affirme que, contrairement à ce qu'affirme la première personne, le français est une langue qui a beaucoup à offrir et qu'il y a de très bonnes raisons de choisir cette langue plutôt qu'une autre. En tant que Québécois, je trouve tout cela assez drôle. Je me demande par contre si le français est vraiment mieux organisé que le hindi, le marâthî et l'arabe. Je ne suis pas en mesure de juger. -- Mathieugp 16:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Voor moest je het niet gelezen hebben op WP:BELG...
Some members of the Dutch Wikipedia are holding a meet-up in Ghent: nl:Wikipedia:Ontmoeten.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 19:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!
 '''
 * Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays ! | A ndonic O Talk 01:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

.

Mathematics CotW
Hey Evil, I am writing you to let you know that the Mathematics Collaboration of the week(soon to "of the month") is getting an overhaul of sorts and I would encourage you to participate in whatever way you can, i.e. nominate an article, contribute to an article, or sign up to be part of the project. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks--Cronholm144 21:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Lausanne
You may have been ever so slightly misled here, unintentionally, I feel sure. Anyway, please have a look at my response to your question, Evilbu. The simple answer is that most people were forced from their homes. I would be happy to deal with any other issues you might have over this matter. Regards Clio the Muse 00:43, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Official status of Breton
Hello, I noticed you wrote a reaction here : [1]. I myself am a Flemingand I was interested in the current French policies with regards to the Breton language. I understand that there are schools where kids are taught in Breton or at least in Breton and French? Do these schools get money from the government right now? And what happens to them after that? Do they have to do their exams in French or in Breton (or can they choose?). Do they have to do a test in an official francophone school to prove their skills in the French language? (Vous pouvez aussi me répondre en français, si vous préférez cela.) Evilbu 19:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Your questions are very interesting and cover a vaste subject. I am not personaly involved in the schools in Breton. So in order to be concise and exact, I can only give you some tips.
 * Breton has no official status in France (as any other local languages in France), it is a matter of private choice and must stay private (like any foreigner can teach his mother tongue language to his children, in private). Consequently, teaching Breton is not state-fonded, all the schools ask fees to the parents. In France, Breton is no more than "yet another foreign language".
 * Even being educated in a monolingual school like Diwan, a child will speak and learn French, which is everywhere out of the school (newspapers, ads, TV, radio, shops, etc.). In fact nowadays in France, it is hard to have Breton as your mother tongue (the majority of Breton people turned to educate their children in French before WWII) and it is impossible not to know French. France is not like Belgium, with an official linguistic border. Once again, Breton has no official status. We just recently gained the right to put some bilingual road signs. Anyway, in Diwan schools, French is a normal course, and every pupil learn French and its literature.

I hope this answer helps you. For more relevant information, you may ask directly to the Diwan schools (see their site on the Internet). ''Kenavo ! :-)'' Gwalarn 12:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Similarities
Hehe.. I'm left handed, know the difference between it's and its, AND also enjoy my N64. I also use the metric system proudly. Just want to let you know. 124.149.67.29 (talk) 07:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Regular graph
Please provide references for this edit Please aslo answer the question in Talk:Regular graph. - 7-bubёn >t 21:28, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Another view of geometry
I don't know how relevant it is to your study of Coxeter groups, but for simple groups I am finding Stephen D. Smith's book Subgroup Complexes to be quite useful. I this and his other book on my talk page. JackSchmidt (talk) 01:53, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:08, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Europe 10,000 Challenge invite
Hi. The WikiProject Europe/The 10,000 Challenge has recently started, based on the UK/Ireland The 10,000 Challenge. The idea is not to record every minor edit, but to create a momentum to motivate editors to produce good content improvements and creations and inspire people to work on more countries than they might otherwise work on. There's also the possibility of establishing smaller country or regional challenges for places like Germany, Italy, the Benelux countries, Iberian Peninsula, Romania, Slovenia etc, much like The 1000 Challenge (Nordic). For this to really work we need diversity and exciting content and editors from a broad range of countries regularly contributing. If you would like to see masses of articles being improved for Europe and your specialist country like WikiProject Africa/The Africa Destubathon, sign up today and once the challenge starts a contest can be organized. This is a way we can target every country of Europe, and steadily vastly improve the encyclopedia. We need numbers to make this work so consider signing up as a participant and also sign under any country sub challenge on the page that you might contribute to! Thank you. -- Ser Amantio di Nicolao Che dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 06:03, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Evilbu


text:
Category:Rugby union centres

The following rugby union players play as centre.

title: Category:Rugby union centres


text:
Pear Tree, Derby

Pear Tree (or Peartree) is an inner city suburb of the city of Derby, in Derbyshire, England, located about 1.2 miles (1.9 km) south of the city centre. It is split between the Arboretum and Normanton electoral wards. Neighbouring areas include Litchurch, Normanton and Osmaston. The area became urbanised in the late 19th century and is characterised by terraced housing originally built for industrial workers.

History
The suburb derives its name from Pear Tree Farm which formerly existed in the area, and was owned by the Peach family from the 18th century. Much of the farmland was sold off for development in the 1860s and 1870s, and the farmhouse demolished. Streets of terraced housing were built up to accommodate workers, industry having been encouraged to develop by the opening of the Birmingham and Derby Junction Railway, which skirts the eastern side of Pear Tree, in 1839. Local businessman Francis Ley opened his Vulcan Iron Works on a site next to the railway line in 1874. It expanded massively in subsequent decades and was a major employer in the area until it was closed and demolished in 1986. Although the demise of Ley's has allowed for some modern redevelopment, much of the original terraced housing typical of the area is of a good quality and has survived.

Like neighbouring Normanton, Pear Tree now has a large multicultural community, with a particularly high number of residents of Asian origin.

Government
Pear Tree has no formally defined boundaries. The area is split between the Arboretum and Normanton wards, two of the seventeen electoral wards which make up Derby. Each ward elects three councillors to Derby City Council. As of the 2015 local elections, all three councillors for both wards represent the Labour Party.

In the 19th century, much of Pear Tree was part of the township and civil parish of Litchurch, which existed independently of Derby between 1860 and 1888 before being integrated into the newly created civil parish and county borough of Derby.

In the Parliament of the United Kingdom, Arboretum and Normanton are two of the wards that make up the constituency of Derby South.

Geography
Pear Tree is an inner city suburb located about 1.2 mi south of Derby city centre and about 1.1 mi south-west of the River Derwent. The area is approximately 177 ft above sea level.

Landmarks
Until 1997, Pear Tree's most famous landmark was the Baseball Ground, home of Derby's professional football club, Derby County F.C., for most of the twentieth century. However, the stadium was demolished in 2004 having been largely unused since the club's departure to Pride Park some seven years earlier. The site is now being developed to provide private housing and some social with landscaped grounds and a memorial to the site's historic past.

Famous residents
Peace activist Alice Wheeldon lived on Pear Tree Road, where her family home sheltered conscientious objectors avoiding conscription during the First World War. She was convicted of plotting to assassinate Prime Minister David Lloyd George.

Steve Bloomer was a footballer for Derby County, Middlesbrough and England. Born in Cradley, Worcestershire, he moved to Derby as a child, living at a number of addresses in Pear Tree and Normanton and attending the Pear Tree and St James' Road schools. The Bloomer family lived at 35 Portland Street in Pear Tree towards the end of his playing days.

Another footballer was Jack Bowers, who played for Derby County between 1928 and 1936 and during this time appeared three times for England. He lived on Pear Tree Road with his wife (born Edith Mason) where they kept a china shop. Where their home was is now a park. They had two children, John and Susan. The son, John, also played for Derby County.

Transport
The main railway line from Derby to Birmingham, part of the Cross Country Route, forms the eastern boundary of the area. Peartree railway station, located to the south-east of Pear Tree on Osmaston Park Road, is located on the line but is only served by a limited number of stopping trains on the Crewe to Derby route. The station, which originally opened in 1839, is managed by East Midlands Railway. North of Peartree on the line is Ramsline Halt, which was briefly used in the 1990s for Football Specials serving the Baseball Ground but is now disused.

The area surrounding the station is served frequently by bus route 4, operated by Arriva Derby between Derby city centre and Alvaston. The premium (Sapphire-branded) route 38 between Derby and Sinfin also serves Pear Tree.

title: Pear Tree, Derby


text:
Portal:Aviation/Anniversaries/November 9

November 9

 * 2005 – Launch: Venus Express, the first exploration mission of the European Space Agency, launched from Kazakhstan. It arrived on Venus the following April, and is funded to continue to send back data until December 2012.

 * 2004 – A U.S. Navy McDonnell-Douglas F/A-18C Hornet crashes 15 mi east of Nellis AFB, Nevada, after in flight fire and becoming uncontrollable shortly after takeoff. Pilot ejects safely.

 * 2004 – U.S. OH-58D Kiowa shot down by rocket fire over Fallujah.

 * 1999 – TAESA Flight 725, a McDonnell Douglas DC-9, crashes near Uruapan, Mexico, killing all 18 on board.

 * 1989 – A Navy LTV A-7E Corsair II jet fighter preparing to land at Dobbins Air Force Base crashes into an apartment complex in Smyrna, Ga., and bursts into flames. Two civilians were killed; four civilians injured. Among the dead, a pregnant 24-year-old woman. Her five-year-old daughter survived with burns over half her body.

 * 1980 – Dan-Air registers the last commercial flight by a de Havilland Comet. The plane flew enthusiasts on a round-trip flight from London.

 * 1978 – First flight of the YAV-8B.

 * 1967 – Launch of the Apollo 4 mission, an unmanned Saturn V, the largest launch vehicle ever to fly successfully.

 * 1962 – An engine failure forced Jack McKay, a NASA research pilot, to make an emergency landing at Mud Lake, Nevada, in the second North American X-15, 56-6671 on flight 2-31-52. The aircraft's landing gear collapsed and the X-15 flipped over on its back. McKay was promptly rescued by an Air Force medical team standing by near the launch site, and eventually recovered to fly the X-15 again. But his injuries, more serious than at first thought, eventually forced his retirement from NASA. The aircraft was sent back to the manufacturer, where it underwent extensive repairs and modifications. It returned to Edwards AFB in February 1964 as the X-15A-2, with a longer fuselage and external fuel tanks.

 * 1961 – USAF Major Robert M White takes the X-15 to a height of 30,970 m.

 * 1957 – A Convair RB-36H-10-CF Peacemaker, 51-5745, of the 71st Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, is destroyed by an explosion and groundfire at Ramey AFB, Puerto Rico, all crew members survive. This is the 32nd B-36 written-off in an accident of 385 built and will be the last operational loss before the type is retired.

 * 1956 – Second prototype Martin XP6M-1 Seamaster, BuNo 138822, c/n XP-2, first flown 18 May 1956, crashes at 1536 hrs. near Odessa, Delaware due to faulty elevator jack. As seaplane noses up at ~21,000 feet (6,400 m) and fails to respond to control inputs, crew of 4 ejects, pilot Robert S. Turner, co-pilot William Cunningham, and two crew all parachuting to safety. Airframe breaks up after falling to 6,000 feet (1,800 m) before impact.

 * 1954 – Spanish Air Force Dornier Do 24T-3, HR.5-1, burnt out.

 * 1950 – Flying an F9 F Panther, United States Navy Lieutenant Commander William T. Amen shoots down a MiG-15. It is the first victory by a U.S. Navy jet over another jet.

 * 1950 – (9–20) U.S. Navy AD Skyraiders and F4U Corsairs from the aircraft carriers USS Valley Forge (CV-45) and USS Philippine Sea (CV-47) attempt to destroy railroad and highway bridges across the Yalu River. They destroy the highway bridge at Sinuiju and two bridges at Hysanjin and damage other bridges, although the railroad bridge at Sinuiju remains standing. Escorting F9 F Panthers shoot down three MiG-15 s. Nearly 600 sorties are flown, and no U.S. aircraft are lost.

 * 1946 – First flight of the Lockheed R6V Constitution by Joe Towle and Tony LeVier.

 * 1945 – Disregarding advice from Eric "Winkle" Brown of the Fleet Air Arm (FAA), to treat the rudder of the Heinkel He 162 with suspicion due to a number of in-flight failures, RAF pilot, Flt. Lt. R.A. Marks, starts a low-level roll during the Farnborough Air Show, one of the fin and rudder assemblies breaks off, the aircraft crashes in Aldershot before the ejection seat could be employed, killing Marks.

 * 1944 – First flight of the Boeing C-97 Stratofreighter in Seattle. After the war it will be redesigned as an aerial tanker.

 * 1942 – No. 431 (Bomber) Squadron was formed in England.

 * 1942 – French high-level bombers attack U.S. landing beaches in North Africa and U.S. ships offshore, but do no damage SOC-3 floatplanes from the light cruiser USS Savannah (CL-42) experiment with the use of depth charges to destroy French tanks, with great success Six F4 F Wildcats from USS Ranger engage 11 Dewoitine D.520s, shooting down five and damaging four, and a lone Messerschmitt Bf 109 is shot down over the beach.

 * 1932 – Wolfgang von Gronau and crew in a Dornier Wal completed the first flight around the world by a seaplane. Their flight took 111 days.

 * 1930 – First airline flight from New York to Panama.

 * 1904 – Wilbur Wright flies the Wright Flyer II a distance of 3 mi near Dayton, Ohio, the first flight of longer than five seconds.


text:
Category:Rugby union fullbacks

The following rugby union players play as fullback.

title: Category:Rugby union fullbacks


text:
Silent call

A silent call is a telephone call in which the calling party does not speak when the call is answered. Most such calls are generated by a cold call telemarketing operation's dialer software, which makes many calls automatically and sometimes does not have an agent immediately available to handle an answered call. As a result the called party hears silence ("dead air"), followed by the call being disconnected. This differs from a ghost call, which is not dialed intentionally, and is due to technical issues or pocket dialing.

In the U.S., the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) uses the term "abandoned call" instead of silent call in its regulations applying to telemarketing.

title: Silent call


text:
Tom McRae (album)

Tom McRae is the debut album from British singer-songwriter Tom McRae. The album was released in 2000 and was nominated for the 2001 Mercury Music Prize.

Track listing
All tracks by Tom McRae
 * 1) "You Cut Her Hair" – 2:46
 * 2) "End of the World News (Dose Me Up)" – 3:48
 * 3) "2nd Law" – 2:50
 * 4) "Bloodless" – 3:38
 * 5) "Draw Down the Stars" – 2:14
 * 6) "One More Mile" – 4:16
 * 7) "Boy With the Bubblegun" – 3:01
 * 8) "Hidden Camera Show" – 4:17
 * 9) "A & B Song" – 4:15
 * 10) "Language of Fools" – 3:57
 * 11) "Untitled" – 3:51
 * 12) "Sao Paulo Rain" – 4:51
 * 13) "I Ain't Scared of Lightning" – 1:25

Personnel

 * Tom McRae – vocals, electric guitar (1,12), fx (1,4), string arrangement (1,7), guitar (2,4,6,7,8,10,13), percussion (2,6,9,10), piano (3,10), harmonium (4), acoustic guitar (5,9,12), 12 string (7), harmonica (9), keyboards (13)
 * Jo Archard – strings (4)
 * Sarah Button – strings (4)
 * Anthony Clarke – string arrangement (2,10), piano (8,12)
 * Mark Frith – electric guitar (2,6,9), piano (2,10), keyboards (2), bass (2,6,9), hammond (9,10)
 * Fiona Griffith – strings (4)
 * Tom Havelock – cello (1,7,8)
 * Chris Hughes – percussion (2,9,10), drums (9)
 * Clive Jenner – drums (2,8,10,12), percussion (8)
 * Howard Jones – piano (11)
 * Tony Marrison – programming (1,2,3,6,9), piano (1,5), string arrangement (1,7), hammond (3), keyboards (5,12), percussion (5,8), guitar (6), bass (8,12)
 * Helen Thomas – strings (4)

title: Tom McRae (album)


text:
Talk:Ulysses (American band)

Untitled
see also Ulysses (band)

title: Talk:Ulysses (American band)