text:
Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities

= July 5 =

What label can be given to John Marshall's judicial review philosophy,
Can a label as used now, like constructionism or textualism or pragmatism or "living constitution"alism or originalism be applied to John Marshall's philosophy on the U.S. Constitution? From the article on John Marshall I copied this quotation, but I'm not sure how moden labels would apply:
 * "To say that the intention of the instrument must prevail; that this intention must be collected from its words; that its words are to be understood in that sense in which they are generally used by those for whom the instrument was intended; that its provisions are neither to be restricted into insignificance, nor extended to objects not comprehended in them, nor contemplated by its framers—is to repeat what has been already said more at large, and is all that can be necessary."

Rich (talk) 04:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

 * To me, this sounds like words spoken by an originalist. Marshall may at the same time have been a strict constructionist; the quotation does not speak to this question. --Lambiam 06:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Has the goddess Saraswati ever been nicknamed Svati before?
Over a month ago, I came across a web series called Ghee Happy which portrayed characters based on Hindu deities. The theme song describes the four protagonists (who are depicted as schoolchildren) as follows: "Ganesha! He likes to eat! Ganesha: Sweet! Kali! She likes to scare! Kali: [makes a roaring noise at a lion] Krishna! He likes to play! Krishna: All day! Saraswati, super smart! Saraswati: I like music, books and art. Friends call me Swati!"

However, I've found out that in a Hindu context, Svati usually refers to either one of the wives of the Moon or the nakshatra associated with Arcturus, so I believe the "my friends call me Swati" part of the theme song may have just been one of the artistic liberties taken by the producers. (along with Kartikeya being Ganesha's big brother, Dvaraka being held up by balloons, and Ravana being 3 years old in Krishna's time, to name a few other examples) – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Saraswati gives better blessings in long run than Lakshmi..."--Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 02:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 6 =

Slave ship Lawrence
There's an article in today's Wall Street Journal regarding a controversy over the Clotilda, supposedly the last slave ship to reach the United States, in around 1859-60. A historian, Erik Calonius, claims that the slave voyage was a hoax, and the last slaver to reach the US was actually the Wanderer in 1858.

Our article on the Clotilda does not mention the controversy, which may be fair enough; Calonius himself seems to acknowledge that this is the standard narrative and it wasn't clear to me from the article how much traction the theory has gotten in the historian community.

But one point caught my eye: The article says that Booker T. Washington claimed that the last slave ship to reach Mobile, Alabama was the Lawrence, in 1862 (later than both the above dates). I can't find the Lawrence in our list of slave ships, and my Googling has not turned up much. Does anyone know anything about this Lawrence? --Trovatore (talk) 19:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

 * People exist today directly descended from both Clotilda slaves and Clotilda enslavers, so I don't really understand how anyone who's watched The Order of Myths could think it's a hoax... AnonMoos (talk) 20:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The article goes into some detail (not a lot, but some) on Calonius's reasons for thinking it was a hoax. I'm not qualified to evaluate that aspect of it, at least not without a lot more work than I actually plan to put into it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The Story of Slavery p. 17. It might be worth investigating Cornelia Lawrence 1854 New York for Lawrence, Giles & Co. She apparently hauled passengers Liverpool to New York but burned 2 Nov. 1858 in Mobile Bay under mysterious circumstance while carrying a cargo of hay? Pretty thin tho. fiveby(zero) 02:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oops article is referring to Washington in ‘’The Story of the Negro’’ p. 104 Two different stories and each seems unlikely. fiveby(zero) 03:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, 5/0. While Washington makes an unqualified claim that slaves were landed in 1862, it's surrounded by various "It is said" and "I have been told" kind of anecdotes, so I agree this doesn't seem like much to go on. --Trovatore (talk) 05:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It seems extremely unlikely. Mobile was under blockade in 1862, and the Confederate efforts to get cargo through it relied heavily on the British Empire both to build ships in the UK and harbour them in the Caribbean. Hard to see them risking winding up the Brits by trying to ship slaves, or using up valuable cargo space that could be used to ship military supplies. Chuntuk (talk) 08:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 8 =

Haruspex
The earlier discussion here about auguries from intestines brought back a vague memory of a haruspex finding an appalling sign (deformity/wormy) but the people pressing ahead with the significant project nonetheless, only to end in disaster. I've been Googling for it without luck, probably because I can't remember if it's the Romans or some other ancient people, and I can't remember if it was for a battle or something else. Does this ring a bell with anyone? It's also entirely possible I read it in fiction! --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 10:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This book seems to have a few pointers in that general direction (p. 112), maybe your episode is covered there? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:57, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

 * We have articles on Omen (ancient Rome), Augury, and Augur, but only a relatively generic article on Haruspex. -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Sounds like Marcus Licinius Crassus and the Battle of Carrhae. There were said to be numerous omens against the undertaking; see Plutarch's Parallel Lives on Crassus . A couple of examples:
 * The seers, also, quietly let it become known that the omens for Crassus which came from their sacrifices were always bad and inauspicious. But Crassus paid no heed to them, nor to those who advised anything else except to press forward.
 * And finally, when he p375 was making the customary sacrifice of purification for the army, and the seer placed the viscera in his hands, he let them fall to the ground; then, seeing that the bystanders were beyond measure distressed at the occurrence, he smiled and said: "Such is old age; but no weapon, you may be sure, shall fall from its hands."
 * There's also Publius Claudius Pulcher (consul 249 BC) throwing the sacred chickens into the sea, which is a memorable episode although it's not the one you're looking for. --Amble (talk) 16:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's terrific and interesting, but I'm looking for an occasion when the entrails were disgusting in some way and plainly foretold disaster to everyone who saw them, rather than a procedural glitch like that. I might need to go backwards, looking at notable Roman calamities like the Varus disaster. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 07:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 9 =

A sudden shock, and London is changed to the Antipodes
I am reading "A Fragment of Life" by Arthur Machen. Darnell, who is (or thinks he is) a clerk in the City, "was indeed almost in the position of the man in the tale, who, by a sudden electric shock, lost the vision of the things about him in the London streets, and gazed instead upon the sea and shore of an island in the Antipodes". What is the tale that the man was in? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I don't know, but I hope it's not excessively pedantic to point out that the literal 180° antipodes of the great majority of land on earth (including London) is deep ocean, as can be seen in File:Antipodes LAEA.png etc... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The term the Antipodes (used as a proper noun, with a capital A) may refer rather loosely to the southern hemisphere. This corresponds to the sense of Ancient Greek, a plural, which did not have the restricted meaning of a precise location. Then there are the Antipodes Islands, often referred to as just "the Antipodes". Possibly, the gazed-upon island was one of the numerous islets of the Antipodes Islands. --Lambiam 06:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed, "a little rock to the south of Antipodes Island". I'm pretty sure the story Machen referred to must be H. G. Wells's "The Remarkable Case of Davidson's Eyes" (1895). --Antiquary (talk) 07:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that looks like it must be it. DuncanHill (talk) 19:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Israel-Hamas War article
Why doesn't the "Israel-Hamas War" article mention the estimated number of Palestinians who've fled Gaza to Egypt during the war? According to Reuters - it's around 100,000 people.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-embassy-seeks-temporary-status-gazans-who-entered-egypt-during-war-2024-05-02/

Also, the Wikipedia article doesn't mention the fact that Palestinian refugees are charged thousands of dollars by Egyptians to cross the border.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/jan/08/palestinians-flee-gaza-rafah-egypt-border-bribes-to-brokers

Thanks. 46.121.212.58 (talk) 01:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Feel like questions that should be asked of the editors on that article. --Golbez (talk) 02:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 * The first is significant, the second not so much, but you yourself could add them to the article. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 07:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 * However, in this particular case, both article and talkpage have WP:BLUELOCK. 46.121, unless you register and stick around for awhile, Requests for page protection/Edit may be of interest. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 * See WP:CT/A-I and WP:ECR before telling IPs to go off and improve articles relating to Palestine and Israel. DuncanHill (talk) 12:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The OP IP geolocates to the Middle East. What could go wrong? :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * People locating to Earth tend to have strong feelings in the matter. Tying the suggestion of a risk of non-NPOV edits to the Middle East is uncalled for. --Lambiam 15:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I assume you're talking to Gråbergs Gråa Sång and/or DuncanHill, who issued warnings to the OP IP. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I was warning the long-established editors who were giving duff advice to an IP. I'll give you one too Bugs for being a typical ignorant American if you like. Or might it be unfair to assume that because you are from a particular locale, you share particular characteristics? DuncanHill (talk) 19:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's me that gave duff advice on this. As I try very hard not to edit in contentious topics, I wasn't aware of the scope of the restrictions. My apologies to the IP. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 12:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

GEORGE WASHINGTON'S PROCLAMATION OF NEUTRALITY
What were some of the consequences from that formal announcement in 1793? Afrazer123 (talk) 20:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 * See: Proclamation of Neutrality, which discusses it. Blueboar (talk) 21:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

New York City Civilian Heroism Award
I'm trying to put together a biography of Will Spens in my sandbox, but I don't have access to newspapers.com so it's slow going. One thing I'm still trying to track down is an award that was informally referred to as the "New York City Civilian Heroism Award", which he received. My guess is that it goes by another name, which is why I can't find any mention of it. I suspect there is some kind of coverage of Spens getting the award on newspapers.com through the Wikipedia Library, but I can't look. Viriditas (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it is the Bronze Medallion? If you need access to sources, try WP:RX RudolfRed (talk) 01:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that’s what I thought too, but I couldn’t find a historical list of all medal recipients. The subject would have won the award some time between 1970 and 1990. Viriditas (talk) 02:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 10 =

Animals in mouse stories
(For clarification, a mouse story is defined as a story with talking animals that is centered on mice.)

We know that cats are often associated with evil in mouse stories. I understand why this is standard. But dogs in mouse stories sometimes represent the need to save mice from cats. Is this logical?? Do dogs often save mice from cats in real life?? If not, then why is it standard in mouse stories for dogs to be used to save mice from cats?? (I want an answer from someone who is a real expert on mouse stories.) Georgia guy (talk) 15:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 * If you wait for "a real expert on mouse stories" here you could be waiting a long time. Some examples would help. Recalling Tom and Jerry I would suggest that the dog is more interested in getting at the cat, and the consequent saving of the mouse is incidental to that. Shantavira|feed me 15:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 * True for some episodes, but not all. In “The bodyguard”, the motivation of Spike the dog is to help Jerry, and hurting Tom is secondary.  – b_jonas 09:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

 * The creators of the North Korean Squirrel and Hedgehog animated cartoon (semi-notorious among some anime fans) apparently worked out a whole elaborate theory of allegorically good and evil animals... AnonMoos (talk) 16:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 * There's also Maus, of course. AnonMoos (talk) 19:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 * In the Krazy Kat stories, a dog tries to protect a cat from a mouse. --Lambiam 20:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Indeed. That strip was a weird kind of love triangle. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:05, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Do dogs often save mice from cats in real life??
 * Surprisingly, this is a good question, it is easier for some breeds of pet dogs to be friends with pet rodents in the home than it is for cats, which appear to naturally want to hunt, torture, and consume them. Obviously, there are some breeds of dogs that will do this too, but there's lot of people who have dogs that don't kill mice, while cats are more prone to just freaking out and getting murder-ish.  My guess is that the trope of dogs saving mice from cats arose from this, but is also a way to show that dogs are friendlier and more social with people, and by extension with other animals.  Let's also remember the most important thing: in the last 9,000 years, cats were not domesticated like dogs, hence their wild predilection. Viriditas (talk) 21:28, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 * The notion of "good" mice as victims of "evil" cats is opposite of reality: mice are pests, and cats help get rid of them. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:51, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * From the human point of view (cats were originally tolerated around human settlements because they preyed on rodents who ate stored grain). AnonMoos (talk) 19:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Don't Panic! The Magratheans are intradimensional beings who take the physical form of mice. What you call "pests" are responsible for building and maintaining the Earth. Be nice to them, they are working on computuational problems of such complexity your puny human mind can't possibly comprehend. Viriditas (talk) 21:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Although not directly related to the question, altruism in animals may be of interest here. Shantavira|feed me 08:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

For an alternative view, see Ratter (dog). DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 18:39, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Nested Egyptian texts
This image, charmingly, has a hieroglyphic document within a hieroglyphic document. Are there any more examples like this? Temerarius (talk) 17:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Charming as the image may be, I question the characterization as being nested. The image is that of a scribe holding a document with a text. The image is accompanied by an image caption, a brief text explaining the image. As was then usual, such a caption was not placed above or below the image frame, but written inside it (like film subtitles today, but with a freer placement). In this case, the whole is a wall painting; classifying it as a document is stretching the concept. --Lambiam 21:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well they're at different scales, and it's interesting anyway. Why can't a wall painting be a document? Temerarius (talk) 04:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree that it can. The Wiktionary entry's definitions 2 and 4 do, I think, cover such wall paintings.
 * I am also not certain whether the 'caption' to which Lambiam refers actually is the black on white script, or the (more usual) coloured script below it. I would have interpreted the former as part of the illustration: however, not being conversant in heiroglyphics or ancient Egyptian, I cannot tell. Any Egyptologists present?  {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 06:50, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I meant the larger coloured hieroglyphs. The white object is part of the depicted scene: a scribe holding up a result of his labour. --Lambiam 14:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * In which case, how is that depicted result, a document written in hieroglyphs, not nested within another document, the painting, also (partly) written in hieroglyphs, as Temerarius originally observed?
 * Tangentially, do you consider mediaeval illuminated manuscripts to be documents? Some of them also include illustrations of documents, which would also be 'nested'. The substrate of a document, whether parchment or wall, is surely unimportant. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 08:38, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Arisaka6.5mm PRC 1949.jpgに中国で製造が継続されていた6.5mm×50SR弾の包装. 名称も三八式機関銃・小銃弾となっている]]
 * Consider the document shown here to the right. Is this an example of a document in Oriental characters within a document in Oriental characters? --Lambiam 13:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Censored paragraph in Commentarii de Bello Civili
Hello, is there a paragraph about sex in Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Civili? My father told me it was censored at school in early '50s.-- Carnby (talk) 22:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I can only say that there was no such paragraph extant in the small section of the work I studied in the late '60s, but as it was about the Siege of Massilia, one wouldn't have expected it to.
 * Certainly Latin school textbooks could be censored in such a way. I recall our Latin master reading us one of Horace's Odes that was, along with a few others, excluded from the copies available to us impressionable lads. It mentioned a slave being forced to bugger his master and "meeting yesterday's dinner coming the other way." Possibly III.6? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 08:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's Juvenal Satire IX. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 17:36, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * His edition may have said something like "edited for the use of schools" which while it could mean "with any passages that might embarrass the masters removed" but could also mean "with an index and a gloss of the hard bits". DuncanHill (talk) 10:14, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Nothing to do with Caesar, but when I was taking an undergraduate Latin class about reading the poems of Catullus, there were only 3 or 4 students in the class, and we didn't all use the same book, and in the edition used by one of the students some lines of one of Catullus's poems was omitted! This was not a book intended for high school students, and not necessarily a textbook as such (probably more of scholarly edition), and likely published after the 1950s, but it was still censored to some degree... AnonMoos (talk) 12:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 11 =

Law about 'Maintenance for dependent'
There seems to be some important ruling/update from Supreme Court of India about 'Maintenance for dependent' (specially rights of divorcee women) including under section 125 of Indian CRPc code. (Ref)

My primary google search and understanding suggests, "Section 144" under new Bharatiya Nagarik Suraksha Sanhita (BNSS)  replaces earlier  section 125 of Indian CRPc code since July 1, 2024.

Help I am requesting is

1) Present WP article seems to provides this link to BNSS law
 * There may have been versions prior to Parliament passed the final bill, my wish is confirm the link WP article is accurate enough. Please help confirm accuracy of above given link as presently applicable BNSS law in India.

2) Please also give links of en WP articles related to 'Maintenance for dependent Law' (incl. Women) to confirm updates to the relevant articles.

3) I am just curious if en WP has any non-country specific general articles relating 'Maintenance for dependent'

Thanks  Bookku   (talk) 05:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

 * It's more commonly known as Alimony and/or Child support. In India in the 1980s, there was the infamous Shah Bano case (there doesn't seem to be much about it in Wikipedia), where Muslims held numerous protests and rallies against the idea that Muslim divorced wives were entitled to alimony... AnonMoos (talk) 08:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

In the States of America which first cousin with opposite sex cannot merry, can first cousin with same sex merry?
In the States of America which first cousin with opposite sex cannot merry, can first cousin with same sex merry? For first cousin with same sex, genetics isn't even an issue. I only know that for Illinois, the answer is “no”, see and, but how about the other 30 States of America which first cousin with opposite sex cannot merry? 2402:7500:92C:19CD:A1F0:F846:FD54:2CEF (talk) 09:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * They can certainly "merry" if they're of a mind to. Whether they can marry is likely to vary by state - of which there are 50, not 30. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * See Mary-marry-merry merger. Alansplodge (talk) 13:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has an article on that. See: Cousin marriage law in the United States. Blueboar (talk) 13:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As far as I can see that article doesn't mention same-sex marriages at all, which is what they are asking about. Obviously not all the considerations are the same. Johnbod (talk) 13:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It may not be explicitly mentioned in the laws of particular states. If one law states that first cousins cannot marry (without clarifying language on the sexes of the couple) and another law states that same-sex couples can marry (without clarifying language on the degree of relation of the couple), then it follows that same-sex first cousins cannot marry and it would require an explicit declaration in law to say otherwise. -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * But same sex first cousin marriage need not to consider eugenics. 220.132.216.52 (talk) 09:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * True, but unless that was specifically mentioned in the law against cousin marrige it would have no legal weight. To qualify for a legal marriage, the couple must meet all legal requirements and not fall under any prohibitions. One disqualification renders it illegal.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Could you add same-sex first cousin marriage to the table in this article? Thanks. 220.132.216.52 (talk) 09:26, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The "30 states" in the question refers to those states (in addition to Illinois) where cousin marriage is largely or entirely illegal. From our article Cousin marriage law in the United States " It is illegal or largely illegal in 31 states and legal or largely legal in 19." -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Googling the subject, a sampling of states reveals that the laws about opposite-sex cousins marrying are not necessarily the same as same-sex cousins marrying, so we can't draw any inferences. They would have to be researched state-by-state. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For a related question, see . --Lambiam 14:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 12 =

Fulltext access to 1970s South African newspapers
Errol Musk is a former anti-apartheid member of the 1970s and 80s Pretoria city council. In 21st-century English-language sources, he has been covered in-depth for his controversial relationships with famous family members, but to create a BLP on him, we really need fulltext access to an archive of 1970s South Africans daily newspapers like Die Burger or Pretoria News.

Looked in The Wikipedia Library, but not seeing it. Did I happen to miss it? Feoffer (talk) 10:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

 * The place to ask is WP:REX... AnonMoos (talk) 12:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Parents of Andrew Jackson
> Was Andrew Jackson Senior a U.S. citizen? > Wikipedia does not mention whether the father, Andrew Jackson Senior, and mother, > Elizabeth Hutchinson Jackson, of President Andrew Jackson were U.S. citizens. 47.146.79.188 (talk) 15:13, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Andrew Jackson Senior died in 1767, so he could not have been a US citizen. I'm not aware of a source that goes into it, but Elizabeth could reasonably be considered a US citizen after 1777, since she was a free inhabitant of the states that joined in the Articles of Confederation. She died in 1981. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:39, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably 1781. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Andrew Jackson Junior was also not a natural born citizen, but was considered a US citizen in 1789 when the US Constitution took effect. Like his mother, he presumably formally became a citizen when South Carolina ratified the Articles of Confederation on February 5, 1778. --Lambiam 19:51, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 13 =

Bubble-end serifs in ancient coins
I see this dotty round-end serif style in bronzes and other things sometimes, does that follow use of a particular tool? To me it looks a bit soldering gun-ish. Temerarius (talk) 17:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I'm by no means familiar with ancient coinage, but for this tetradrachm, Ancient Greek coinage mentions hammered coinage made through the use of coin dies. I imagine the blobbiness would come from the coin die itself being carved rather deeply, for an example see File:Reverse Die for a Tetradrachm of Demetrios I.jpg. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:52, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Just looking at it, it seems like they may have used a tool which leaves a circular hole to define the ends of some of the strokes, and then carved between these circles... AnonMoos (talk) 19:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Mrs Rattenbury's sons
Alma Rattenbury was a song-writer, adulteress, and accused murderer. She had two sons, Christopher (b. 1921), by her second husband Compton Packenham, and John (b. 1928), by her third and last husband Francis Rattenbury. She and her lover George Percy Stoner (b. 1916) were tried for the murder of Francis. he was found guilty, she was acquitted. Stoner was sentenced to death, but his sentence commuted to life imprisonment, and he was released after seven years. She committed suicide by stabbing herself on the banks of the Hampshire Avon, less than a week after her acquittal. My question is what happened to her sons, who would have been about 14 and 7 at the time of her death. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:28, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Obituary here . 2A00:23A8:1:D801:CDA3:36B8:54AE:E434 (talk) 17:39, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 14 =

Looking for the name of a British party
There used to be a British "right-wing populist" party that (1) was active around 2015 (2) was led by an Irish-born woman who happened to be gay (3) had a trident as a symbol. Does anyone remember what that party was called (and what the name of that woman was)? I don't know if they're still active. 178.51.74.75 (talk) 19:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Anne Marie Waters, For Britain Movement. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 19:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Left- and right-hand traffic in British Columbia
Per Left- and right-hand traffic, BC changed from LHT to RHT in stages. Why? The last page of, a provincial government publication, notes that the temporary disparity occurred in regions with no road connections to each other (so you wouldn't have awkward border crossings), and , from the Vancouver Sun, notes that the switch was delayed in Vancouver etc. due to the need to modify tram tracks. But why did the provincial government choose to switch regional BC before it switched the southwest, instead of waiting until the southwest was ready before switching everything at once? Nyttend (talk) 21:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Looking at the facts with his mind set up on priorities, Superman in the forties started his career throwing automobiles around fighting vilains. Back in the twenties, saving the world was still considered urgent matter. So in the mountains backwards most of the traffic would mostly be going on using horses or mules and such - for an unpredictable period of time, and you do not change those sentients manners too easily without having they themselves realize by necessity they do have to. There may even have been requests explicitly expressed to that regard. --Askedonty (talk) 00:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Uhh...what? Nyttend (talk) 07:28, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The two sources that are cited give different explanations. The "Did You Know" item in The British Columbia Road Runner of March 1966 states:
 * The "Week In History" item in the Vancouver Sun of January 1, 2016, has this:
 * "The province’s Automobile Club had been lobbying for eight years to bring B.C. and Vancouver in line with Washington state and the rest of North America. The interior of the province had changed to the new system in 1921. But because of the retrofitting that had to be made to streetcars and tracks, the change in Vancouver was delayed a year."
 * The latter makes more sense. Vancouver was connected by road to the US State of Washington, where RHT had been the rule for decades. Presumably the pressure of BC's Automobile Club made the province decide not to wait until also tardy Vancouver was ready, a decision made more easy by the lack of East–West road connections. --Lambiam 09:15, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The latter makes more sense. Vancouver was connected by road to the US State of Washington, where RHT had been the rule for decades. Presumably the pressure of BC's Automobile Club made the province decide not to wait until also tardy Vancouver was ready, a decision made more easy by the lack of East–West road connections. --Lambiam 09:15, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 15 =

Looking for a novel/short story
Hello, I'm looking for a short story, or maybe a part of a novel. It's about a sacristan/custodian of a church in England. He fulfills duties with joy, but he can't read/write. As the (new?) priest notices it, and after discussions the sacristan gets "sacked". He then opens a cigar shop, has great success, expands and so on, but he still can"t read. The story ends that a customer or someone else asks him surprised: "You created all this, without being able to read? Imagine what you could have been, if you COULD read!" The former sacristan, now shop owner, replies: "oh, that is easy! I would still be sacristan at St. -Elsewhere-."

Can someone help me? Sadly I don't remember the author, or the title, not even the church name. What I do know, the language was english. (I'm German).

--Maresa63 Talk 17:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

 * "The Church Warden" by Lilian Comer? --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:49, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No, "The Verger" by the esteemed William Somerset Maugham! --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:52, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well done. It's a short story that you can read here. Alansplodge (talk) 18:52, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you all! William Somerset Maugham of course! Love his work! Must have read this story in a Public Library book many years ago, then! Now I have to get hold of a German edition of "The Verger", as a gift for a friend of mine, who doesn't speak english!
 * So glad for your help!
 * Cheers! --Maresa63 Talk 19:16, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 16 =

to discuss alphabetic development
Hi, I'd like to point those interested to a discussion about the development of the letterforms at Talk:Proto-Sinaitic_script. (Yes, of course we're aware of WP:OR.) And I'd like to ask where's a better place to talk about it. A bit niche. I'm making a video series with novel hypotheses but I don't have anybody to give me feedback. Temerarius (talk) 03:09, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I've taken the liberty of wikifying the name of the talk page --ColinFine (talk) 09:37, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Having linked to the discusssion, and now looked at it, I'm quite certain that it does not belong on the talk page, or, probably, anywhere in Wikipedia. WP:Talk page guidelines says Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject. ColinFine (talk) 09:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * In fact, see particularly WP:TALKOFFTOPIC, which says It is common to simply delete gibberish, test edits, harmful or prohibited material (as described above), and comments or discussion clearly about the article's subject itself (as opposed to comments and discussion about the treatment of the subject in the article). ColinFine (talk) 09:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's why I'm asking? Don't tell me you love rules more than research. Temerarius (talk) 15:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Why not? Is there a rule against it? --Lambiam 14:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Check out the new subreddit at reddit.com/r/protosinaitic
 * Temerarius (talk) 18:07, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Character ° in adresses
It seems the character ° is used in physical addresses in some countries - but where exactly, and for what purpose? --KnightMove (talk) 04:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * One possibility is the floor number. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baseball Bugs (talk • contribs) 06:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * In some countries it's used to indicate the '-st' '-rd' that in English we append to numbers such as 1st and 3rd. There are lots of other uses too - see Ordinal indicator. Nanonic (talk) 09:33, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you both, this explains it. --KnightMove (talk) 11:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Note that that's strictly speaking not the same character, in terms of text encoding. The character you named is ° U+00B0 DEGREE SYMBOL, while the one used as an ordinal indicator should typically be encoded as º U+00BA MASCULINE ORDINAL INDICATOR. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:56, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Uhm, many thanks for that hint. So in languages using the U+00BA MASCULINE ORDINAL INDICATOR, keyboards contain that character, while others probably do not (I on my German keyboard believed it to be a degree symbol)? --KnightMove (talk) 13:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I can't say about most languages, but Spanish and Portuguese keyboards seem to have these "ordinal" characters. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Aha. "Masculine ordinal indicator", as in primero, segundo, tercero, etc. Exactly as we use -st, -nd, -rd, -th in English. Only it's easier in Spanish because all the masculine ordinals end in -o. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:10, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Also Lista de abreviaturas de vías ("List of abbreviations of ways") and Abreviaturas at the Diccionario Panhispánico de Dudas have several examples of other uses. --Error (talk) 15:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for that list! Do I see it right that only the numeral ordinators are considered characters in their own right, while all the other superscript letters as in p.za are really just that - superscript letters? --KnightMove (talk) 06:33, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Plus: The ordinal indicators o and a are also parts of abbreviations in that list: camp.º, 	carr.ª - do I understand it right that this is technically wrong, and normal supercript a's and o's should be used in those cases? --KnightMove (talk) 06:36, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Y'all be unsurprised to hear that it applies to all languages with a direct Latin root. ——Serial Number 54129 16:20, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Here is the teclado nacional, deprecated since 1971 but still in use when I was there .  Job adverts specified either teclado nacional or teclado internacional (the one we use).   Monday is segunda-feira, but often written as 2a.   The top left key seems to be the one for that.   You can see the French AZERTY layout at  (note the penultimate key on the top line).   On the German and Swiss QWERTZ keyboards again note the top left-hand key . 92.10.146.73 (talk) 16:37, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There are separate Unicode superscripts distinct from HTML superior letters. It also distinguishes the ordinal indicators and these superior letters. The Real Academia Española's DPD uses C.ª with the indicator and C.$ía$ with HTML sup in the same line. It is not using the Unicode superscripts. RAE is authoritative but our articles say that it is not followed by all language users. Probably professional typographers may differ about it and unprofessional typographers tasked with text formatting tasks will differ further. --Error (talk) 10:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

English names for federal states of Austria
Of the nine Federal states of Austria, six have a traditional English name, at a minimum Tyrol having a varied English spelling. Burgenland, Vorarlberg and Salzburg have not. In the former two cases, this may be explained with the rather young age of the names (1921 and middle of the 18th century, respectively). But Salzburg is really old. Why do e.g. Styria and Carinthia have English names, but Salzburg has not? Where does this difference come from? --KnightMove (talk) 11:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd say for the same reason that Hamburg is written the same way in English and German, whilst Bavaria/Bayern isn't. The 'English name' of Salzburg is Salzburg, thus the same would apply for the state name. Presumably the name didn't create problems for English writers and they got used to writing it same way as in German. --Soman (talk) 11:57, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The traditional English names actually come from (or via) Latin or Italian, so why not have another traditional name derived from German? The Latin version would be Salisburg or something like that, with a pronunciation that is not far off "Salzburg" anyway. --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:07, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Salisbury-by-the-Salzach? --Error (talk) 15:23, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Why didn't" questions can be almost impossible to answer. Alansplodge (talk) 17:46, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Salzburg" works in English, "Steiermark" and "Kärnten" don't. I mean Salzburg looks and sounds pretty much like an English word or placeneme might. "Steiermark" and "Kärnten" look and sound like nothing any Englishman might ever say or hear. But as Alan says, these kind of "why" or "why not" questions really can't be answered. DuncanHill (talk) 22:58, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This your explanation is actually very satisfying, thanks. On that occasion, English pronunciation of Vorarlberg (starting 0:37) seems to work better than I had imagined. --KnightMove (talk) 06:29, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, English exonyms tend to follow French ones, Cologne for example. French "bourg" endings are Anglicised as "burg", such as Strasburg and Luxemburg. Alansplodge (talk) 08:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Without looking up the meaning of the word "exonym", Portuguese names for overseas cities follow the German - Luxemburgo, Estrasburgo.  English names, on the other hand, follow the French:  "Luxembourg" (I've been there), "Strasbourg".   There are places named Strasburg in America. 2A02:C7B:232:7100:5830:3E14:CB16:6F14 (talk) 14:09, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Traditionally, French "-bourg" names were Anglicised to "-burg" (like this for example), although there has been a trend towards using native spellings in recent decades. Alansplodge (talk) 10:25, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Search 'Salzbourg' in Google Books does give a few 1800s English texts. --Soman (talk) 11:13, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Court incapable
What do they call it when a court argues it lacks the authority/competence to hear a case and directs it to a higher court? If there's an opposite of a writ Procedendo, that might be it. But is there such a mechanism? Cheers! ——Serial Number 54129 16:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Magistrates have limited jurisdiction.  They often remit a case to the Crown Court. 92.10.146.73 (talk) 16:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. There's a name for it. What's the name, bro?  ——Serial Number 54129  16:56, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The reciprocal seems to be remand (court procedure). --Error (talk) 16:50, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That would actually seem to be the opposite! A high court sending a case back to a lower court? I mean a lower court that claims it does not have the legal authority so upstairs must deal with it.  ——Serial Number 54129  16:56, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that's called a "referral" in England, but I'm having trouble pinning it down as the same word is used in a number of other legal contexts. Alansplodge (talk) 08:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It depends on the context. If a magistrates' court decides at the outset that it doesn't have sufficient powers to deal with a charge, the act of referring it up to the Crown Court is a "sending", but if it's already convicted someone (or they've pleaded guilty) and it decides at that point to refer it up, that act is called a "committal". I'm not sure there is a general term that applies in all contexts. Proteus (Talk) 09:50, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Courts don't "argue" (or "claim"): they "find" (or "rule" or "decide"). The ones doing the arguing are the lawyers. Proteus (Talk) 09:50, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 17 =

Monograms or cyphers with double letters
Do you know any monogram or cypher (royal or otherwise) that use the same initial twice and facing in opposite directions (for example a capital letter and its mirror image) either back to back (the inverted letter first, when using a left-to-right script) or facing each other (first the usual letter). I'm specifically interested in the Latin alphabet but if you've got examples in other scripts, do include them. I know there's a cursive double L that Louis XIV used. I'd thought there was a double E that some Elizabeth (Elizabeth I?) or other used but I can't find it. Anyway, any example is good and gratefully accepted. 178.51.74.75 (talk) 01:58, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

 * c:File:Royal Monogram of King William IV of Great Britain, Variant.svg kinda seems like it does, while c:File:Royal Monogram of King George V of Great Britain.svg achieves a very similar effect by using different letters cleverly. Folly Mox (talk) 02:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Also the monogram of the late Prince Philip which shows a double "P", and appears in the logo of The Duke of Edinburgh's Award. Alansplodge (talk) 08:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The monogram of Prince Carl Philip of Sweden has been made artificially symmetric by intertwining  with its mirror image .  --Lambiam 11:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

 * There are a couple of examples in the gallery at royal cypher that seem to fit the bill, most obviously that of King Carol II of Romania (not very clear in our photo, but described as "two opposed Cs"). That of King George I of Greece appears to be two crossed Γs (the Greek letter gamma). There are also a couple that don't quite fit your criteria because the letters themselves are symmetrical and so you can't tell what direction they're facing: Sheikh Maktoum bin Rashid Al Maktoum of Dubai (seems to include two Ms) and King Michael I of Romania (four Ms with both reflectional and rotational symmetry). Proteus (Talk) 09:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There are a several examples in commons:Category:Royal monograms of Denmark and commons:Category:Royal monograms of Sweden (and presumably in other subcategories of commons:Category:Royal monograms). --Lambiam 12:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As an "otherwise" example, the Chanel logo [] 2A01:E0A:CBA:BC60:B108:C36D:53EC:399 (talk) 11:36, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * J. R. R. Tolkien Tolkien_monogram.svg -- Verbarson talkedits 21:53, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Thanks guys. Is there any theory out there as to how this originated. Would this have originated as an abbreviation of a name being written in two different directions (the right-to-left form being a mirror image of the name)? Problem is I've never ever seen anything like that? Have you? Another possibility: it symbolizes the name (represented by its initials) being "broadcast" in two directions? Speculation. Any actual theory put forward in a reliable source? Also: any idea who first originated this sort of design? How old it is? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 02:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Symmetry is (or can be) beautiful? I doubt there is any relationship with boustrophedon writing, though Tolkien (see example above) said that some elves wrote bi-directionally. -- Verbarson talkedits 07:54, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "the development of the more stylised royal cypher seems to date from the reign of William and Mary. To emphasise their joint rule, their initials were interlaced and – apparently simply to add symmetry – the first R was reversed." --Lambiam 10:46, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Another example: ABBA (band). --142.112.148.225 (talk) 04:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The monogram of King Frederik X of Denmark have two mirrored letter F. See Frederik X. Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 10:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 18 =

When was "Confessions of a Yakuza" (Junichi Saga) released?
I tried adding a short description and later found that there's no uniform "publication date" I've seen on Wikipedia and on other sites.

 * 1) The Wikipedia page for Confessions of a Yakuza says it was released in 1991.
 * 2) The author's Wikipedia page (Junichi Saga) says the book was published in 1989.
 * 3) An entry on Google Books states thr book was published in 1995.
 * 4) Its listing on the Internet Archive states its publication year as 1995.
 * 5) In GoodReads, the book was saud to be originally published in London and Tokyo in 1991.

I tried checking, and the Internet Archive copy of the book states:

The original publication was in 1989, in Nihonggo. It was in 1991 when Kodansha International Ltd. published the book. I originally wanted to ask the question here, but I might let other people know of this concern.

Also, I still can't identify whether the book is fictional or not (i.e. biographical, or a fictional character in nonfictional world). RFNirmala (talk) 13:52, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 * The original Japanese version was published in 1989. The translation was originally published in 1991, but under the title The Gambler's Tale (see here). The 1995 version (the "first paperback edition" from Kodansha) corroborates both of these dates, giving the publication date as 1989 and the copyright date for the translation as 1991. Dekimasu よ! 14:09, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you? Is it possible to help me in editing the articles accordingly? I can't edit much in the following days RFNirmala (talk) 14:57, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 19 =

Was Isaac spared in the Junius Manuscript?
Apparently the story of Abraham and Isaac occurs twice in the book. Do these stories agree, and do they belong to the category of traditions in which Isaac was sacrificed? Temerarius (talk) 02:37, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

 * The story of the sacrifice of Isaac is only told in Genesis A. In lines 2908–2922, a messenger from God commands Abraham not to slay his remaining son. --Lambiam 10:12, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Stout of heart he mounted the high downs, and his son with him, according as Eternal God commanded, until he stood upon the ridge of the high land in the place which the Firm and Faithful Lord had showed him. And there he built a pyre and kindled a flame and bound his son, hand and foot, and laid Isaac, the lad, on the altar, and seized his sword by the hilt. With his own hand he would have slain him, and quenched the flame with the blood of his son. Then a thane of God, an angel from on high, called unto Abraham with a loud voice. In stillness he abode the herald's message and answered the angel. Swiftly the glorious minister of God addressed him from the heavens: "Slay not thy son, dear Abraham, but take the lad from the altar alive. The God of glory is gracious unto him! Great shall thy reward be, Hebrew prince, true meed of victory and ample gifts, at the holy hands of the Heavenly King. The Lord of spirits will bless thee with His blessing because His love and favour were dearer unto thee than thine own son."
 * Alansplodge (talk) 10:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There are indeed two passages in that translation Alansplodge linked to, one in section XLI (around lines 2897-2908), and one in section XLVII (starting with lines 397-416). The second seems to be part of a summary of the genealogy of the patriarchs injected within a narrative of the Exodus. Both passages contain the sacrifice story including the divine command to spare Isaac in the end. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:56, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Many narratives now in the 'Old Testament' are amalgams of oral tales that originally had different variations in different communities, and even after initial redaction may have been further modified later to suit a changing religious and/or political agenda. There is no doubt that the early Canaanites, who included those who later differentiated themselves as Israelites and Judahites, practiced human sacrifice, probably including of firstborns, so extra- (and pre-) biblical variants of the Binding of Isaac story where Jacob was sacrificed probably existed: the eventual biblical version likely reflects a 'policy change' of child sacrifice being abandoned as part of a general distancing from other Caananites, and identity assertion as a separate people (see Canaanite religion).{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.235 (talk) 10:50, 20 July 2024 (UTC).
 * We're talking here, tough, about poems in Old English written in the late 10th century CE. The only knowledge its authors would have of ancient Caananite practices would be through the medium of the Old Testament. --Lambiam 13:38, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

When Treasuries mature on a holiday
I just bought a Treasury bill maturing on 12/31 with one of those brokerages that pay out only the day after. As that will be New Year's Day, my money basically doesn't earn interest for two days, compared with a brokerage that pays out on the day of. Suppose it were a long holiday. That would be money out of reach for even longer. Hardly seems fair. Imagine Reason (talk) 14:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you have a question? --Error (talk) 14:47, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, are there any similar problems in financial transaction? Imagine Reason (talk) 19:12, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not sure if this is what you are asking about, but in banking there is often a delay between when you deposit funds in a checking account, and when those funds become available for withdrawal. This can be several days if you deposit over a long weekend. Blueboar (talk) 14:21, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Be thankful you are not charged negative interest. --Lambiam 13:44, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Conflicts between Soviet Union and Russian SFSR
Have there ever been any conflicts between the Soviet Union and the Russian SFSR when Russia was still a part of the Soviet Union? J I P | Talk 20:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 1991 Soviet coup attempt lists several Soviet organizations on one side and the RSFSR on the other. --Error (talk) 00:36, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * (ec) The Russian SFSR had a totally dominant position in the Soviet Union until 1990, so any conflicts must date from the brief period from the declaration of State Sovereignty of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic on 12 June 1990 and the dissolution of the USSR on 26 December 1991. --Lambiam 00:45, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Define conflict. There was certainly some competition regarding delimitations of decision-making, that always happens. But what is important in this case is that there was no republican-level RSFSR Communist Party until the very end of the Soviet Union, unlike all other SSRs. Generally speaking power-struggles happened not between governments of administrative units of the USSR but between party organs (state organs implemented party policy, not the other way around). So the management of the RSFSR state government was directly under the Central Committee of the CPSU, the same party body controlling the USSR government. Towards the end stage of the USSR Russian nationalism was increasing in importance, in the sense of wanting more self-rule of RSFSR. The foundation of the Communist Party of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic was the key step in this direction. --Soman (talk) 13:25, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

= July 20 =

Should Afghanistan be considered part of West, Central, or South Asia?
exactly what it says on the tin

Duckmather (talk) 04:11, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Based on the article, South Asia. GalacticShoe (talk) 04:21, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, Afghanistan is a member of the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation. --Lambiam 09:39, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Look, these geographic units are completely arbitrary. You can consider Afghanistan as part of all of these regions, and these regional identities are not necessarily mutually exclusive. If you define 'West Asia' as Greater Middle East, then Afghanistan can be part of it, but let's be clear that the notion of a 'West Asian' region is a construct that only exist in the mind of people outside the supposed region. In terms of Central Asia vs South Asia, Afghanistan doesn't match perfectly in neither, Afghanistan was not directly part of Soviet Union as the rest of Central Asia and was not directly part of British empire as the rest of South Asia. Then the UN georegions is a different story, but UN region allocation is not a particularly important categorization except for UN employees. --Soman (talk) 13:36, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Word for office selling lottery tickets
Is there a word in English for a office selling lottery tickets? Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 09:30, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Lottery tickets are sold by "lottery retailers", which are typically not specialized offices but, for example, tobacco shops, gas stations and convenience stores. For example, tickets for Landbrugslotteriet in Denmark are sold by many, diverse retailers. In some countries they are also sold by street hawkers. --Lambiam 10:05, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is true now, but historically there have been many offices/stores in Denmark whose sole purpose has been to sell lottery tickets. The Danish word for such lottery sales outlets is “lotterikollektion”. My question is whether there is an equivalent word in English for a shop that only sells lottery tickets. Dipsacus fullonum (talk) 10:20, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Tickets for the National Lottery (United Kingdom) can be bought from newsagents, supermarkets and local grocer's shops, although at the outset in the 1990s, post offices were the main outlets.
 * I was curious about the 17th and 18th century goverment lotteries, such as the Million Lottery, but it seems that the £10 tickets could only be afforded by the very wealthy and were obtained from the Bank of England through a stock broker.  Alansplodge (talk) 11:09, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, none of the English speaking countries ever had shops dedicated to just selling lottery tickets, so they wouldn’t need a word for such shops. Blueboar (talk) 12:53, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If there were a need for a word, then "lottery office" would probably suffice. English is not fond of the compound words that are found in other Germanic languages. Alansplodge (talk) 15:21, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * English is very fond of them (see Noun adjunct), but it only spells them as single words (with no internal space or hyphen) in limited circumstances... AnonMoos (talk) 18:23, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities


text:
Talk:People's Revolutionary Army (Argentina)

Untitled
Some one must change this "The avowed aim of the ERP was the replacement of the Argentine government, whether civilian or military, with a revolutionary socialist dictatorship." that phrase is incorrect, the word dictatorship should be replaced maybe using "proletariat dictatorship" (this words had a very big context),that for a marxist means the start of a truly democratic society, but not just "dictatorship" that´s truly confusing and not even racional (its like throwing away all the marxist theory) remember that we are talking about a trotskyst guerilla, ideologicaly they were against the "communist" states who oppress the population in general, just like the USSR government.
 * Changed to "proletarian rule" (while keeping the link to the article which more fully explains the Marxist concept of "the dictatorship of the proletariat") -- Picapica 08:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:ERPflag.gif
Image:ERPflag.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 03:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi, i'm from Argentina, and this article have lots of information that isn't correct. A lot of the numbers and operations that are exposed here isn't right.

"In August an assault on the barracks at Catamarca by 90 ERP guerrillas was beaten off and they lost 19 dead and 15 captured"
 * The attack to the barracks in Catamarca never took place, because the guerrillas were found while they were preparing for the assault.
 * The army didn't take any guerrilla alive and killed them in Capilla del Rosario, after the guerrillas surrender.

In December 1975 a force of some 1,000 ERP men attacked the Monte Chingolo barracks outside Buenos Aires but lost 160 dead.
 * The force of ERP in the attack to Monte Chingolo was of around of 250 ERP.
 * The dead in the attack were around 43 for the ERP, and after the attack the army killed several civilians in the proximities of the barracks, and added them like if they were involved in the attack.

Calamaro82 (talk) 16:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The use of the word terrorism
Besides the fact that there are many reasons why ERP doesn't qualify as a terrorist organization, the word "terrorism" is a term that should be avoided according to Wikipidea standards. Please stop editing the article to include the terms "left-wing terrorism" or other weasel words. Xtremepunker 06:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Biased sources
91.121.139.161, please stop reverting the article to include links to biased organizations and trying to pass them off as "official". They can't confirm their figures with anything other than their own "investigations". Every one of these sites has their own figures which range from a thousand (and most of them army combatants) to over 20 thousand victims (!!!). References like these are not neutral and can't be trusted. Xtremepunker 06:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

The real number of ERP guerrillas employed and killed in the battle for Monte Chingolo
Over 60 guerrillas were killed according to their own list of their fallen in the action(Sources: www.auno.org.ar, elortiba.org). According to the careful investigations of Paul Lewis, over 300 armed guerrillas took part in the assault, and this figure does not include the hundreds of civilian supporters who helped the assault materialize by providing the guerrillas safe houses before the battle, transport, food, weapons, intelligence, communications, etcetera, and the Montoneros and civilians that provided the attackers with medical aid and the means to escape in the aftermath of the operation. Calamaro82 says the military forces killed many inocent civilians in the nearby shanty towns but it is clear that at least 15 of these so called 'inocent civilians' were in fact militants of the ERP and Montoneros who took arms and were killed in the armed confrontations with the army, marines and police as they searched for the survivors of the Batallón urbano José de San Martín del Ejército Revolucionario del Pueblo who had escaped into the nearby shanty towns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.128.162.2 (talk) 05:02, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Defeated by military
They were defeated by military of Argentina.This video: [] has the ERP's official music. And this other video [] has interviews with persons that were friends of this marxistAgre22 (talk) 02:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)agre22

Is CELTYV (Centro de Estudios Legales sobre el Terrorismo y sus Víctimas) a biased political organization?
I don't think so. According to their manifesto:

The Center for Legal Studies on Terrorism and its Victims (CELTYV) is a Non Governmental Organization, non-political, dedicated to assisting victims of terrorism that struck the Argentina for 29 years, from 1960 to 1989. We work throughout Argentina.

Our research promotes the knowledge and dissemination of the actions of armed organizations, in turn supporting the victims of terrorism, to the psychological needs as well as legal and social aspects.

The work developed in CELTYV aims at not only the recognition of human rights for victims and dissemination of historical truth, but also making society visible to those who most suffered from the aggression of the terrorists, responsible for more than 21,600 attacks still remain unpunished.

CELTYV with their daily work gives voice to victims who may struggle to enjoy their rights, their stories and broadcasts that terrorism works to never again be an option in our country.

Our effort is coordinated with other NGOs in countries that also suffered terrorism in Latin America such as Chile, Colombia, Peru and Uruguay. All nucleated in the Latin American Federation of Victims of Terrorism, work so that the cry of the victims is not muted.--95.172.4.142 (talk) 03:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Duh. Who describes themselves as a biased political organization? You can read on their site articles like this one where they call state terrorism a "myth", they deny the genocide and cases of stolen babies for which military Junta members have been convicted, question the number of the disappeared, accuse the governments after 1983 of being in a conspiracy to silence and hide the truth, etc. And as I said earlier in my edit, they sponsor the annual fascist rally in Plaza San Martín where the speakers refer to convicted repressors as "political prisioners" and demand an amnesty for them. One of the main activities in this rally sponsored by CELTYV is giving the nazi salute and hitting journalists who ask inconvenient questions. So yes, they're extremely biased and they're not a neutral reference to cite. So stop editing. --Xtremepunker 04:16, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Stop the mud-smearing. CELTYV don't deny the fact that a lot of terrible things happened (killings, abductions, torture, etc) at the hands of the counter-insurgency task forces, and the fact that babies from murdered guerrilla moms and the sympthizers were given to military families for adoption. But we must remember that equally horrible things were carried out by the ERP and Montoneros guerrillas, which you seem to deny. And we all have the right to question the much trumpeted number of 30,000 disappeared, promoted by leftist human-rights groups and the Kirchner government. Just go to your main local library and you will see that the figure of 30,000 disappeared only started to appear in the world newspaper reports with the arrival of the Raul Alfonsin government. The real number of disappeared was somewhere between 12,000 and 13,000 (according to the un-biased Argentine Asamblea Por Los Derechos Humanos), and 10,000 of these were armed fighters of the ERP and Montoneros, and even the guerrilla groups recently admit that. You are promoting hate when saying CELTYV promote fascist rallies, for these are actually gatherings of groups of family members and friends and colleagues who lost loved ones, that are seeking justice, and even an BBC documentary (presented by Tanya Datta) shows that(available on youtube).--91.121.139.161 (talk) 08:41, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

CELTYV denies that the military carried out a genocide and systematic baby theft even though people were convicted of that and that makes them a biased source. The rallies they sponsor are attended by nazis and the speakers demanded an amnesty for members of the armed forces who committed crimes against humanity. I have already sourced this. Claiming that "equally horrible things were carried out by the ERP and Montoneros guerrillas" is totally inaccurate and a fallacy called the Theory of the two demons. The figure of 30,000 disappeared predates the Alfonsin government. The earliest instance I have read is from 1982 by CELS and it's attributed to church sources. Other human rights sources have reached the same figure by taking into account the number of clandestine detention centers, number of habeas corpus presented, an intelligence document copying the figure of 22,000 killed by 1978 they had in offices of the Argentine army intelligence and so on. This letter from the Argentine Human Rights Secretary illustrates the methodology. The lower figures from CONADEP, IACHR, etc. are self-admittedly incomplete because they're lists of names and many people did not report the disappearances out of fear and other reasons. No other genocide in history has ever required a complete list of names of the victims to count the victims. The 6 million-victim figure of the nazi Holocaust is an example of this. Your claim that Montoneros and ERP had 10,000 armed fighters is out of touch with reality. Even exaggerated estimations of the Argentine military intelligence reported to the American embassy claimed that ERP and Montoneros together didn't have more than 3,000 combatants at their peak in 1975. More serious studies like the one written by UN consultant Prudencio García estimate between 1000 and 1300 armed combatants. Xtremepunker (talk) 12:52, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No, that is a blatant lie.

The Montoneros alone suffered 5,000 disappeared in the Dirty War
In an interview with Juan Ignacio Irigaray:

BUENOS AIRES.- Una semana después de la autocrítica del Ejército y a petición del presidente Carlos Menem, el ex jefe de la organización guerrillera Montoneros, Mario Eduardo Firmenich, admitió que ese grupo armado cometió «errores políticos».

Sin embargo, justificó la opción de la violencia política seguida por una generación de jóvenes en los 70 porque «los argentinos produjimos una guerra civil silenciada hasta 1995» y los Montoneros «usaron -según él- el derecho de resistencia a la opresión por todos los medios».

En uno de los pasajes más criticados de su aparición en televisión, Firmenich justificó el secuestro y asesinato, en 1970, del general y ex dictador Pedro Eugenio Aramburu argumentando que «no fue un acto que decidimos nosotros, lo decidió el pueblo».

Acompañado de sus padres, esposa y cinco hijos, el ex jefe montonero de 47 años dijo que quería que «nunca más el pueblo tenga necesidad de venganza».

De ideas nacionalistas y formación católica, Firmenich fue condenado a 30 años de prisión por su papel en los Montoneros, que nacieron en 1968 como un grupo armado peronista pero hacia 1974 se enfrentaron con el fundador, Juan Domingo Perón.

Se trata del único líder de los Montoneros que sobrevivió a los 5.000 cuadros guerrilleros del grupo que perdieron la vida. A finales de 1990 Menem lo perdonó, junto a los comandantes de las juntas militares que gobernaron Argentina entre 1976 y 1983.

Tras esta declaración pública, el diputado socialista Alfredo Bravo dijo que analiza la posibilidad de presentar una demanda judicial contra Firmenich por presunta apología del delito.

Con el mensaje del jefe de los Montoneros vuelve a salir a la luz en Argentina la profunda grieta entre militares y ex guerrilleros y el debate sobre quién fue el que comenzó la violencia.

Menem, que defendió la represión de las Fuerzas Armadas y por ello fue expulsado de la Asociación Permanente de Derechos Humanos, declaró que «hay una autocrítica de Firmenich, pero no hay un pleno arrepentimiento por lo que se hizo». (Source: )--95.172.4.142 (talk) 01:58, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

 * And only a small fraction of them were combatants. So? What's the point and how is it related to this article about ERP? Xtremepunker (talk) 04:51, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

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text:
Turton

Turton may refer to:

People

 * Turton baronets

Surname

 * Andrew Turton (1938–2021), British anthropologist
 * Ashley Turton (1973–2011), American lobbyist and political staffer
 * Chad Turton (born 1974), birth name of Chad Kroeger
 * Cyril Turton (1921–2000), English football centre back
 * Sir Edmund Turton, 1st Baronet of Upsall, York (1857–1929), British Conservative Party politician for Thirsk and Malton 1915–1929
 * Edmund Turton (athlete) (born 1932), Olympic athlete from Trinidad and Tobago
 * Enid Bakewell (née Turton; born 1940), played for the English women's cricket team
 * Geoff Turton (born 1944), British singer
 * Gibson Turton (1841–1891), New Zealand barrister and cricket player
 * Gerald Turton, owner of Upsall Castle
 * Harriet Bridgeman, Viscountess Bridgeman (née Victoria Harriet Lucy Turton; born 1942), founder of the Bridgeman Art Library
 * Henry Hanson Turton (1818–1887), Member of Parliament in Taranaki, New Zealand
 * (1832–1881), chess problem composer; see Turton doubling
 * John Turton (1735–1806), English physician who treated King George III of Great Britain during the king's bouts of madness
 * Kett Turton (Birkett Kealy Turton; born 1982), Canadian television and film actor
 * Ollie Turton (born 1992), English football defender
 * Major Richard Turton, British colonial military officer who re-established the convict settlement at Norfolk Island
 * Robin Turton, Baron Tranmire (1903–1994), Life Peer and British Conservative Party politician for Thirsk and Malton
 * Searle Turton (born 1979), Canadian politician
 * Sue Turton (born c. 1966), British television journalist
 * Stuart Turton, author of the 2018 novel The Seven Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle
 * Sir Thomas Turton, 1st Baronet of Starborough Castle, Surrey (1764–1844), MP for Southwark
 * Thomas Turton DD (1780–1864), English academic and divine, the Bishop of Ely
 * Sir Thomas Edward Michell Turton, 2nd Baronet of Starborough Castle, Surrey (1790–1854); see Turton baronets
 * William Turton (1762–1835), British naturalist
 * William Turton (1762–1835), British naturalist

Australia

 * Point Turton, South Australia

United Kingdom

 * Turton, Lancashire, a historical area, township and former civil parish now partly in Greater Manchester
 * Turton Urban District, a former urban district in Lancashire
 * North Turton, a civil parish of the Unitary Authority of Blackburn with Darwen in Lancashire
 * South Turton, an unparished area of the Metropolitan Borough of Bolton, in Greater Manchester
 * Turton and Edgworth railway station, formerly on what is now the Northern Rail 'Ribble Valley Line
 * Turton and Entwistle Reservoir, a water reservoir in the town of Edgworth, Lancashire
 * Turton Tower, Chapeltown, Lancashire, a 15th-century manor house

United States

 * Turton, South Dakota

Organisations

 * Turton F.C., a football club based in Edgworth, Lancashire, England
 * Turton High School (1915–1956), a secondary school in Turton, South Dakota, U.S.
 * Turton School, a mixed comprehensive secondary school and sixth form in Bromley Cross, in the Metropolitan Borough of Bolton

Other uses

 * Turton doubling, a manoeuvre found in chess problems
 * Turton River, Victoria, Australia
 * Sir Basil and Lady Turton, characters in the British television series Tales of the Unexpected

title: Turton