text:
Talk:Mali Empire

Gold refining in medieval Mali
They used cupellation, which present-day chemists still use for fire assay. Here's a write-up of how archaeologists reconstructed their metallurgical technique: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/medieval-african-gold

I'll digest it & add something to the article in due time. --Pete Tillman (talk) 16:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

 * From cupellation: "Small-scale cupellation may be considered the most important fire assay developed in history, and perhaps the origin of chemical analysis". Whoa! --Pete Tillman (talk) 16:20, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Identity of the capital
As far as I can tell, the location and name of the capital of the Mali Empire is not agreed upon. Some recent sources appear to be of the opinion that Niani definitively was not the capital of Mali, except possibly briefly long after its glory days. In my opinion it would be prudent to have a section of this article that discusses the debate over the identity of the capital(s) of the Mali Empire. Ornithopsis (talk) 20:44, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey, I've found the same thing, and some similar problems with citing Kangaba as the original home of the Keita dynasty. I've been looking at these articles: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3172058 and https://www.jstor.org/stable/182640. I think having a section talking about the capital would be a good idea. But I really don't know what to do with all the various references to Niani and Kangaba scattered around this page and others like it. Open to suggestions and ideas. Catjacket (talk) 14:38, 2 February 2021
 * Where appropriate, I think it would be a good idea to replace "Niani" with "the capital" if the context in the source justifies it. I think that adding a section that clarifies the situation with the capital is a good idea even if we can't clear out every stray reference to Niani, though—best not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm reluctant to write the section myself because history is not my main area of knowledge and I am not familiar with the original evidence that led to the hypothesis that Niani was the capital, but I can give it a shot if need be. On a tangentially related note, I think the article needs some cleanup so that the history of the empire is all under a single top-level section like other articles, rather than a separate top-level section for nearly every paragraph. Ornithopsis (talk) 04:57, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I'm happy to write the section - I read those papers I referred to above, and will do some more research to round it out. I can do the cleanup of the layout too, but go for it if you'd rather. Catjacket (talk) 09:01, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I'll clean up the layout the best I can; feel free to modify it if you disagree with my decisions. I think the section on the location of the capital should go in the "Geography" section, once I add that heading. A couple of other papers relevant to the capital issue I've encountered: . Ornithopsis (talk) 23:26, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm having trouble accessing online versions of those two articles you shared. Do you have access through an institution? Catjacket (talk) 22:12, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't have institutional access but I managed to acquire copies with some help. Haour 2005 only mentions the issue of the capital of Mali tangentially—it doesn't offer a lot of information on the question not also in Conrad 1994. Fauvelle 2018 offered more information, but I just found another article by Fauvelle that looks like it contains the most important parts mentioned in Fauvelle 2018 and then some: . I haven't read it yet but based on the title and abstract this looks extremely useful to us. Ornithopsis (talk) 18:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Pleasure working with you, my friend. Catjacket (talk) 19:50, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that looks great! Ornithopsis (talk) 04:53, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Demography?
I know this "empire" didn't keep record of its demography, but it would be great to have some sourced estimate. All this page tells us right now is that this "empire" comprised a capital city + 400 villages... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.119.104.223 (talk) 08:30, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

 * I would rather compare West Africa to Southeast Asia, both areas where the population remained low until the 20th century due to a hostile enviroment. According to Thai historians Chris Baker and Pasuk Phongpaichit, Southeast Asia's density was a fifth of that of India and China's until the modern period. Ayutthaya had a population of 1-2.5 million in it's heyday in the 1700s. Taungoo and Konbaung Burma had a similar population number. Vietnam and the Philippines, two countries with similar growth rates to African countries (Egypt, Nigeria, Ethiopia) each had a population of around 10 million in 1900. Ilffie, whose book "Africans: The History of a Continent" is an r/askhistorians recommended book, argues that most historians don't know the exact population of pre-modern West Africa. I would probably agree with removing Mali from here.

 * Usually, when empires don't do the numbers, or if their records don't survive, historians use accounts of foreign travelers to guess this (which occurred with Ayutthaya), as well as simulating population numbers. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 06:45, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It was an Empire. Not an "Empire". Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 14:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * -applause emoji- Catjacket (talk) 23:59, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Constitutional monarchy
I don't know Mali's history but "constitutional monarchy" seems VERY unlikely to me Braganza (talk) 17:11, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Reorganization and suggestion of new sections
I reorganized the page to better match the format used in Featured Articles on medieval states. I have neither the time nor expertise to do a great job on any of these on my own, but I think there are several sections that could be added, and I've noted locations I think sections should be added with comments in the article. The Culture section needs expansion in particular—at minimum there should be subsections on religion and jeliw, I think. I think there could also be a section on the legacy of the Mali Empire at the end, as exists for several other articles on notable civilizations (e.g. Byzantine Empire). Ornithopsis (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

 * I just did some reorganization, particularly in the early history part, but also in economy and government to try and streamline the categories and whatnot, make the table of contents more sensible, and generally clean up repetitive or clumsy phrasing. I moved a lot of the early history to the dedicated Pre-Imperial Mali page, since if we have it may as well use it and avoid cluttering the main page with detail that can remain accessible elsewhere. Open to feedback and happy to make adjustments as necessary. Catjacket (talk) 23:57, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Manuscript section please
I think that a section about the manuscripts should be added in the main article and the stuff about them should be moved there. 68.37.205.126 (talk) 12:45, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

 * Do you mean that you think that there should be a section of the article that talks about the sources for the history of the Mali Empire such as al-Umari, Ibn Khaldun, Ibn Battuta, and the Tarikhs? Ornithopsis (talk) 19:18, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Manden Kurufaba
I have removed the references to the empire being called Manden Kurufaba, as I suspect we may be dealing with a case of wikiality. This topic was previously brought up on the talk page all the way back in 2013, but satisfactory evidence was not given to support the term. The page was edited to call it Manden Kurufa in 2007 and Manden Kurufaba in 2012. The cited source for the term (Piga 2003) does not actually use it, though it does contain the word "kurufaba" as a translation of "confederation":

"Ainsi l'empire ou la confédération (kurufaba) peut-il apparaître comme une forme agrandie du village ou du canton (kafo lè) et réciproquement le village ou le canton comme un petit État." "Il importe de constater en revanche que citte idée se retrouve dans l'oeuvure historique de Souleymane Kanté consacreée aux empires de Sosso et du Mali sous la forme de l'opposition déjà évoquée entre la confédération (kurufaba) et le canton (kafo lé)."

I can't read French, so I'm not even sure if these statements are specifically about the Mali Empire or are more generally referring to the concept of confederations, but it's clear that at most they indicate that the Mali Empire was called a kurufaba. This is not enough to indicate its official name was Manden Kurufaba. For an analogy, the United States of America is a republic and a federation, but its name is not the Republic of America or American Federation. There are virtually no results on Google or Google Scholar for either term prior to their addition to Wikipedia; pretty much every Google Scholar result for the term turns up text similar to Piga 2003, which do not support the name of the empire being Manden Kurufaba. One suggests that the term "kurufaba" may be a neologism devised by Solomana Kante. Suffice to say, there is inadequate evidence for the term Manden Kurufaba, and I think the term should be removed until a source that satisfactorily demonstrates its validity (and that can be trusted to not be just quoting Wikipedia) can be found. Ornithopsis (talk) 06:41, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Unsourced flag
I've removed the "flag" in the infobox for now, as there are no sources included in either this article or at the to support the claim that this is the flag of Mansa Musa or the Mali Empire. Unlike modern national flags, there is no obvious reference to consult on the flags of historical states centuries ago, so clear and reliable sources should be included to verify that any such flag is actually real. The closest I could find to a source were a couple of books that mention Mansa Musa's flag as "yellow with a red background", but that provides practically nothing to go on, as there's no indication of what pattern it would have.

From what I've seen in other articles so far, there is a lot of WP:OR on Wikipedia when it comes to "flags" of historical states. There is very little restriction on what users can upload to Wiki Commons and many users just upload their own personal creations, so please do not take any claims or labels in Wiki Commons at face value. Unlike Commons, content on Wikipedia must be verifiable, and that includes any claims about historical flags. R Prazeres (talk) 05:55, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

 * The official flag or banner of the Mali Empire was probably just plain red; Al-Umari notes that Mansa Musa brought red banners with yellow symbols on it, sometimes translated to “yellow banners with a red background”, which brings to the misconception that the flag was actually a red flag with a yellow square. (1 / 4) Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * However, reading Ibn Khaldūn's account, we only hear testimony about red banners without the yellow symbols — this plain red flag was noted both in a ceremony he described, and inside the court. (2 / 4) Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It's disputed whether it could've been really seen as an official flag or similar, however it might be also a plausible conclusion to note that adopting a banner was among the things Mali got from the Muslim world, choosing a red one in particular, sometimes putting yellow symbols on it. ( 3 / 4 ) Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * SOURCE 1: Gomez, M. A. (2019). African Dominion: A New History of Empire in Early and Medieval West Africa. United Kingdom: Princeton University Press. — p. 115 Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * SOURCE 2: A History of Islam in West Africa - John Spencer Trimingham, University of Glasgow, 1970 — p. 79/80 Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * SOURCE 3: Hamdun, S., King, N. Q. (1975). Ibn Battuta in Black Africa. London: Collings. — p. 50
 * OR you can check my tweet with all references screenshotted here: https://twitter.com/CKRD11/status/1761766390795497825?t=afExtTp5l_9mCdR3hT885w&s=19
 * (4 / 4) Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 15:38, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the research, but from what I'm reading, this amounts to WP:OR (original research), which is not admissible on Wikipedia. We clearly don't have complete information to reconstitute the flag in full detail and with certainty, therefore Wikipedia should not be introducing hypothetical flags that can't be directly found in reliable sources. Many pre-modern states had no "official" flag, which is a modern concept, and that's likely true here (as you more or less noted above).
 * Information on what type of banners were used and on what flags may have looked like can still be added in the body of the article, so long as it's clearly supported by citations, as always. R Prazeres (talk) 18:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * As pointed out by J.S Trimingham, Mali could've got influenced by other arabo-muslim states such as the mamluks and made it's own version of a banner. We see it described by Al-Umari as the main colours of the banners & by Ibn Battuta (NOT Khaldun, my bad). Analyzing it's uses we see it mentioned in the context of the royal flag brought in an expedition (the Hajj), as the flag brought with the sultan in a ceremony (as said by Ibn Battuta) and flag of the court, literally inside the court.
 * Fundamentally, we can come to the logic conclusion that Mali, seeing other muslim kingdoms wave banners, decided to make one for their own, and so they adopted this plain red banner. Both Gomez & Trimingham basically concluded that Mali's flag was fundamentally just red, and it doesn't require an academic book to reconstruct a flag said to be, fundamentally red.
 * Either way, we can imply that the red banner was the main symbol of the empire, similar to the other banners of the same period, and thus it can be an important piece of information for people to read. Maybe not necessarily calling it the official flag but at least the imperial banner, or at least "banner used by the Royalty as cited by Al-Umari and Ibn Battuta"
 * In conclusion, I may ask you to re-instate my edit, as I find it informative and correcting the common misconception, propagated by strategic games, that Mali's symbol/banner was red with a yellow square, thank you. Cheikh Khadim Rassoul D. (talk) 21:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Your explanation only makes it clearer that this is WP:OR. If the flag is not found in reliable sources, then it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. It is not up to editors to "imply" or "come to the logic conclusion" based on clues in other sources. This is a core content policy of Wikipedia and it cannot be disregarded, so please review it. The original red-with-yellow-square flag has already been removed, and the only way to prevent further errors and misconceptions is precisely by avoiding the insertion of other hypothetical flags. And as a reminder, the infobox is for summarizing the article: there is no requirement that a flag be included here at all. R Prazeres (talk) 21:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

15th-16th century mansas
I would like to draw attention to some problems regarding the identities of the mansas "Musa III", "Uli II", "Mahmud II", and "Mahmud III". The existence of mansas of these names seems to be yet another example of Delafosse's speculation being treated as historical fact. It is known from João de Barros that the Portuguese sent emissaries to the mansa of Mali late in João II's reign (c. 1490–1495) and in 1534, and that both of these mansas had the same name, but their name is not directly mentioned. Separately in Barros's account, he mentions emissaries being sent to someone called "Mahamed bem Manzugul, grandson of Mussa, king of Songo," which is "one of the most populous cities of...Mandinga," during the reign of João II. Delafosse thought this was the mansa of Mali, and suggested that "Manzugul" should be read as "Mansa Uli", thereby concluding that the two mansas contacted by the Portuguese were both named Mahmud, and that the earlier Mahmud was preceded by his father Uli and grandfather Musa. However, as discussed by Masonen (2000), it is not altogether clear that "Mahamed bem Manzugul" was a mansa of Mali, and indeed there seems to be good reason to think he was not. Several possibilities have been suggested over the years; Barth was under the impression that "Mahamed bem Manzugul" was a nephew of Askia Musa (perhaps confusing Portuguese neto "grandson" with German Neffe "nephew"?), Garrard apparently suggested he was a ruler of Begho, and Masonen speculatively suggested that "Mahamed", "king of Songo" could even refer to a Songhai ruler named Muhammad—i.e. Askia Muhammad himself. Suffice to say, there are a lot of problems with our coverage of the 15th-16th century history of Mali, and extensive revisions are needed. Ornithopsis (talk) 02:04, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

History of the Mali Empire Page?
What would y'all think of moving the bulk of the historiography and history sections to a new History of the Mali Empire page, and keeping a shorter summary here? I'm thinking of following the model of the Roman Empire page.

I find the current layout, with the names of kings as section heads and disputed or limited sourcing, confusing and messy, especially for a casual reader who wants to understand the overall sweep of the empire's history but doesn't need mansa-by-mansa details. Catjacket (talk) 19:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mali Empire


text:
USNS Grapple

USS Grapple (ARS-53) is a Safeguard-class rescue and salvage ship in the United States Navy. Her home port is Norfolk, Virginia. On 13 July 2006 Grapple was decommissioned from US Navy service and converted to civilian operation by Military Sealift Command. She was redesignated as USNS Grapple (T-ARS 53).

Role
Rescue and salvage ships render assistance to disabled ships, provide towing, salvage, diving, firefighting and heavy lift capabilities.

The mission of the rescue and salvage ships is fourfold: to debeach stranded vessels, heavy lift capability from ocean depths, towing of other vessels, and crewed diving operations. For rescue missions, these ships are equipped with fire monitors forward and amidships which can deliver either firefighting foam or sea water. The salvage holds of these ships are outfitted with portable equipment to provide assistance to other vessels in dewatering, patching, supply of electrical power and other essential service required to return a disabled ship to an operating condition.

The Navy has responsibility for salvaging U.S. government-owned ships and, when it is in the best interests of the United States, privately owned vessels as well. The rugged construction of these steel-hulled ships, combined with speed and endurance, make these rescue and salvage ships well-suited for rescue/salvage operations of Navy and commercial shipping throughout the world. The versatility of this class of ship enables the U.S. Navy to render assistance to those in peril on the high seas.

Capabilities
Grapple is designed to perform combat salvage, lifting, towing, off-ship firefighting, crewed diving operations, and emergency repairs to stranded or disabled vessels.

Salvage of disabled and stranded vessels
Disabled or stranded ships might require various types of assistance before retraction or towing can be attempted. In her 21,000 cuft salvage hold, Grapple carries transportable cutting and welding equipment, hydraulic and electric power sources, and de-watering gear. Grapple also has salvage and machine shops, and hull repair materials to effect temporary hull repairs on stranded or otherwise damaged ships.

Retraction of stranded vessels
Stranded vessels can be retracted from a beach or reef by the use of Grapple's towing machine and propulsion. Additional retraction force can be applied to a stranded vessel through the use of up to six legs of beach gear, consisting of 6,000 lb STATO anchors, wire rope, chain, and salvage buoys. In a typical configuration, two legs of beach gear are rigged on board Grapple, and up to four legs of beach are rigged to the stranded vessel.

In addition to the standard legs of beach gear, Grapple carries 4 spring buoys. The spring buoys are carried beneath the port and starboard bridge wings. Each spring buoy weighs approximately 3100 lb, is 10 ft long and 6 ft in diameter, provides a net buoyancy of 7½ tons, and can withstand 125 tons of pull-through force. The spring buoys are used with beach gear legs rigged from a stranded vessel when deep water is found seaward of the stranded vessel.

Towing
Grapple's propulsion machinery provides a bollard pull (towing force at zero speed and full power) of 68 tons.

The centerpiece of Grapple's towing capability is an Almon A. Johnson Series 322 double-drum automatic towing machine. Each drum carries 3000 ft of 2.25 in drawn galvanized, 6×37 right-hand lay, wire-rope towing hawsers, with closed zinc-poured sockets on the bitter end. The towing machine uses a system to automatically pay in and pay out the towing howser to maintain a constant strain.

The automatic towing machine also includes a Series 400 traction winch that can be used with synthetic line towing hawsers up to 14 inches in circumference. The traction winch has automatic payout but only manual recovery.

The Grapple's caprail is curved to fairlead and prevent chafing of the towing hawser. It includes two vertical stern rollers to tend the towing hawser directly aft and two Norman pin rollers to prevent the towing hawser from sweeping forward of the beam at the point of tow. The stern rollers and Norman pins are raised hydraulically and can withstand a lateral force of 50000 lb at mid barrel.

Two tow bows provide a safe working area on the fantail during towing operations.

USS Inflict (MSO-456), USS Fearless (MSO-442) and USS Illusive (MSO-448) were towed to the Gulf of Oman by USS Grapple (ARS-53), which departed Little Creek, Virginia on 6 September 1987. They traveled via the Suez Canal and arrived in the Gulf of Oman on 2 November 1987. At the time, the 9000 nmi trip was the longest distance three ships were towed by one.

Crewed diving operations
Grapple has several diving systems to support different types of operations. Divers descend to diving depth on a diving stage that is lowered by one of two powered davits.

The diving locker is equipped with a double-lock hyperbaric chamber for recompression after deep dives or for the treatment of divers suffering from decompression sickness.

The MK21 MOD1 diving system supports crewed diving to depths of 190 ft on surface-supplied air. A fly-away mixed gas system can be used to enable the support of diving to a maximum depth of 300 ft.

The MK20 MOD0 diving system allows-surface supplied diving to a depth of 60 ft with lighter equipment.

Grapple carries SCUBA equipment for dives that require greater mobility than is possible in tethered diving.

Recovery of submerged objects
In addition to her two main ground tackle anchors (6000 lb Navy standard stockless or 8000 lb balanced-fluke anchors) Grapple can use equipment associated with her beach gear to lay a multi-point open water moor to station herself for diving and ROV operations.

A typical four-point-moor consists of an X pattern with four Stato Anchors at the outside corners and Grapple at the center, made fast to a spring buoy for the close end of each mooring leg with synthetic mooring lines. Using her capstans, Grapple can shorten or lengthen the mooring line for each leg and change her position within the moor.

Grapple has a 7.5-ton-capacity boom on her forward kingpost and a 40-ton-capacity boom on her aft kingpost.

Heavy lift
Grapple has heavy lift system that consists of large bow and stern rollers, deck machinery, and tackle. The rollers serve as low-friction fairlead for the wire rope or chain used for the lift. The tackle and deck machinery provide up to 75 tons of hauling for each lift. The two bow rollers can be used together with linear hydraulic pullers to achieve a dynamic lift of 150 tons. The stern rollers can be used with the automatic towing machine to provide a dynamic lift of 150 tons. All four rollers can be used together for a dynamic lift of 300 tons or a static tidal lift of 350 tons.

Grapple also has two auxiliary bow rollers, which can support a 75-ton lift when used together.

Off-ship fire-fighting
Grapple has three manually operated fire monitors, one on the forward signal bridge, one on the aft signal bridge, and one on the forecastle, that can deliver up to 1,000 gallons per minute of seawater or aqueous film forming foam (AFFF) When originally built, Grapple had a fourth remotely controlled fire monitor mounted on her forward kingpost, but this was later removed. Grapple has a 3,600 gallon foam tank.

Emergency ship salvage material
In addition to the equipment carried by Grapple, the US Navy Supervisor of Salvage maintains a stock of additional emergency fly-away salvage equipment that can be deployed aboard the salvage ships to support a wide variety of rescue and salvage operations.

Awards
In 2000, Grapple won the Marjorie Sterrett Battleship Fund Award for the Atlantic Fleet.

Bodo, Norway
In September 1988, LST-1190 USS Boulder ran aground on a shoal in a Norwegian fjord during Exercise: Teamwork. The Grapple, along with two Norwegian tugs, removed Boulder from the shoal. As of February 2019, Grapple is berthed behind Boulder and three Charleston-class vessels.

Adriatic Sea (F-16 recovery)
The Grapple also helped to recover an F-16C which had crashed in the Adriatic Sea in 2013, killing its pilot.

Botwood Harbor, Newfoundland, Canada
In July 2014, Grapple was in Newfoundland's Botwood Harbor for the body recovery from a 1940s plane wreck.

Corsica (Calvi)
In October 2012, Grapple supported research operation diving on a sea landing B-17 in WWII.

Atlantic Ocean, 100km (62 miles) south of Nantucket
In November 1999, Grapple participated in the salvage operation of EgyptAir Flight 990.

St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia, Canada
In September 1998, Grapple helped in the recovery of Swissair Flight 111.

Mediterranean Sea
In January 2010, Grapple assisted in the search and recovery of aircraft fuselage pieces and "black-box" flight recorders following the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 409.

Status
Grapple was placed in "Out of Service, in Reserve" status on October 1, 2016, and is stored at the Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: USNS Grapple


text:
Talk:Barber

Image
Will this do? Sakurambo 00:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Page focusing on male hairdressing
'Hairdresser' redirects to 'Barber', which focuses on hairdressing for men. If this redirection is to exist, it should be for hairdressers generally, not simply for "barbers". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.253.200 (talk) 04:48, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. --Kvaks (talk) 18:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have been a barber for 40 + years and it is this type of language and mentality that has keep most barbers out of the major league in this business. Grow up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Masterbarber40 (talk • contribs) 17:46, 20 November 2010 (UTC)  --162.72.40.70 (talk) 06:56, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * According to the 1940 textbook of "Journeymen Barbers' International Union of America" in the section covering history of the barber profession, the first recorded barbers were recorded from Sicily to Rome in the year of 303 B.C. In the course of a few years, they had so multiplied that the city was full of them. The source goes on to report the barber shop was a place even of its most earliest of origin of common resort for loungers and idlers of every description. As it is today, it was then a source of local gossip, news gathering and where the inquisitive portion of the community came to receive the fashionable news and information regarding affairs of the state. They came from all corners of the city when hours of regular business were over to informally discuss politics as it was a natural gathering place for the men of the age.

 * The barber himself was in many ways a reliable new source. Since the earliest of days to modern times, the well known reliability of one's local barber shop news is an established city's icon to it's staying power. According to the Journeymen Barber's International Union, the first record of barbers in London dates to the mid thirteenth century and it is in this period in which the Barber's Company came into existence. How long before this period such a group existed is impossible to say, but the barbers at that time were governed by groups that did not record much about the trade functions during that period. What was recorded and what we do know were issues relating to member dues for annual subscriptions and what that generated revenue was reportedly used for. Like other similar trade based union associations, the Barber Company made it's mission to do a number of benevolent acts such as assisting widows and orphans of diseased members. The Barber Company, in accordance with the law of the day, allowed no more than two apprentices at any one time. These groups were ruled by a master barber.

 * The first noted master barber was a Richard le Barber in the year of 1308, according to the 'JBUA'. The associations of the barbers and surgeons followed and in 1462 a charter was granted to the barber surgeons by Edward de Forth. Oddly, the charter makes no mention to barbers, it's simply referred to the regulations of surgeons. However, the surgeons, at that time, were as a matter of fact, all barbers. So much were the surgeons connected intimately with the work of a barber that when a person called a barber, he was understood to be a barber surgeon. At that time the Company, as it was known and called, which was the same as an association, was governed by four masters. Two of these were full time actual barbers and the other two were full time actual surgeons.

 * There was also a small association of surgeons at that time who were principally military surgeons, and these two bodies had frequent disputes. The barber surgeons were indisputably the stronger organization by far having a much larger membership base and more influence in the community at large. The smaller group who wanted to change the name from 'barbers' to 'surgeons' were not only less in number but were in general, individually less charismatic. As a result the communities at large tended to receive them with less enthusiasm than their friendly neighborhood counterparts. This all added to the building rivalry between the groups. As the conflicts and disputes mounted to an unreasonable point, finally terms were discussed to reach a peaceful solution within the group. However, it did not last. In 1540 the Companies were incorporated by active Parliament and were legal called for the first time the Company of Barber Surgeons.

 * During that period medical practice was limited to the medical clergy. As such, a much wider divide existed between the barbers and surgeons and likewise between the surgeons and clergy. However, the clergy who provided medical care required the assistance of the 'barber surgeons' to perform manual operations as they did not possess the skill nor experience. The barber surgeons readily aided in the performing of operations. So much so that the barber pole commonly displayed in front of the barber shop was originally thought to  be the colors representing surgery and also to designate the place where a patient might receive services. The pole represented something like a rod to keep the arm steady while the surgeons performed their work, ad in no time they began to practice as medical me as well as surgeons. The right to do so was quickly recognized by custom and a charter of incorporation followed during the formation of the union of barbers and surgeons.  This corporation was formed in the year 1540  and continued until the year of 1745, at which time the surgeons had gained pre-eminence over the barbers and the union was dissolved. The surgeons were reincorporated and called themselves the Company of Surgeons while the barbers called themselves the Company of Barbers.

 * This has been a brief historical rendition of the origin of barber profession and the barber pole according to the Journeymen Barbers' International Union of America educational department publication of 1940.

 * As a barber I have watched this page with a bit of dissapointment since my starting "barber school". There is very little elaboration on tools and impliments. In fact, save straight razor they seem to have been neglected altogether. Also, there is no mention of services commonly provided.

 * Services Commonly Provided
 * Haircut
 * Ear-and-Neck Shave
 * Face Shave
 * Facial
 * Scalp Tonic
 * Scalp Tonic

 * Tools and Impl[e]ments
 * Shears (scissors)
 * Razor
 * Hone
 * Strop
 * Clippers
 * Edgers (A smaller clipper usually used to outline the perimeter of the haircut)
 * Sanitizer (the most commonly seen sanitizers in this day and age is the wet sanitizer. Most barber board require them to be covered making the jar the most common wet sanitizer. The precursor was the dry sanitizer which involved placing the impliments into a fumigate cabinet usually made of glass and filling it with a formeldahyde gas which was accomplished a number of different ways)
 * Barber Chair (this definitely deserves it's own unique definition it is much different from the all too common styling chair in function and in purpose)
 * Barber Chair (this definitely deserves it's own unique definition it is much different from the all too common styling chair in function and in purpose)

 * I didn't have a chance to complete the list, I will modify it later.

 * BTW, the barber pole definition is true. Even if it's not true there is no proof otherwise and this has been believe by barbers as far back as A.B. Moler the author of the first standard barbering textbook and likely further back then that. So dispute is essentially pointless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.109.2.142 (talk) 19:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Barber Pole?
I've always heard that the red stripe represented blood (rather than blood-stained bandages) and the white either represented cleanliness (rather than clean bandages) or was simply a good, visible contrast to the red.

The explanation about hanging bandages on a pole seems a little far-fetched. Why would a barber hang clean bandages from a pole with dirty ones? For that matter, why would a barber hang clean bandages from pole at all? They're clean. Maybe the barber pole predates the knowledge of germs, but it doesn't predate the knowledge of clean vs. dirty. Obviously, if the barbers were taking the trouble to wash them and hang them to dry, they wouldn't want to let them get the new bandages dirty.

Sometimes a symbol is just a symbol, and isn't based on an actual event. (For instance, I doubt the symbol of the griffin in heraldry came from somebody meeting a lion with an eagle's head.)

The posted explanation doesn't make any sense if you think about it from a realistic perspective. I'm not going to change it or anything, and I'm not an expert on barbers, but I think that part is pretty iffy. Kafziel 19:12, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

On second thought, I am going to change it, since the article was started by an anonymous IP address anyway. I'll wait a few days to see if anyone has any suggestions. Kafziel 19:23, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The bit about the origins of the barber's pole sounds iffy to me too, but a quick Google shows that everyone else seems to believe this too. Of course, this may be the same bit of information being duplicated everywhere. Anyhow, I wouldn't change it without further documented research. --Iacobus 03:13, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Since the original claim was not documented I've removed it. Given the clear flaws in this claim (why would someone hang dirty stuff up with clean stuff if they're all going to get tangled up?). Also would you really keep your leaches and blood in the same basin? Sounds a bit bizaree to me since presemuably you'd want your leeches to be hungry. I don't know if leeches take up blood in a basin but even if they don't it sounds to me like you risk 'drowning' them in blood. All in all sounds a rather flawed claim and without further evidence or references, I don't think it's worth mentioning. If you do find a reliable reference, I would suggest you still mention it as a theory not a fact. Nil Einne 20:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Barber Pole Claim is True
It is actually documented in my text book. Milady's Standard Barbering Textbook, pretty much the only current text book in exsistance on the subject in North America. - DoobieEx
 * 1745

 * Finally in 1745 a bill was passed separating barbers from surgeons. When the Barber-Surgeons separated, the barber kept the pole as their identification. The pole consists of Red and White, or Red, White and Blue strips. Red for blood, White for bandages and Blue for veins http://www.edjeffersbarbermuseum.com/

 * Here could be a few reasons why the book say's what it does.The reason for white bandages intermixed with red ones could be one of several reasons. They could simply put the whiter ones out with the blood "stained" ones because they were both just washed and they needed to dry them(no electric dryer) kept the white ones for the shaves and Hair cutting seperate from the surgery whones while dirty and then washed them seperately and dried them togethor. Another could be that sometimes there were blood stained ones hanging out there(after surgery they were washed and hung to dry)and white ones after a haircut(linens where washed then as well. For all intensive purposes the bowl at the top and bottom of the pole are "Symbolic" of leaches and doesnt mean they detached the bowl from the pole to perform this service. In all actuallity the Barber pole of today is symbolic. The red and white symbolize surgery and tonsorial services, bowls represent blood letting.

Barberofdeville-Master Barber (talk) 03:49, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Barbers & Barbarians
"It is from the Roman (Latin) word 'barba', meaning beard, that the word 'barber' is derived - and hence 'barbarians' as the name used during that period to describe tribes who were bearded."

This is a false etymology. "Barbarian" comes from the Greek words barbaros, meaning "foreign speaker", and barbarizein, "to speak like a foreigner". The word did come into English via Latin (as did most Greek words), but has no connection with the native Latin word barba. (see any standard dictionary, such as the Shorter Oxford)

I have therefore removed the above text from the article.--Iacobus 02:42, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I am removing the link to barbarian in the see also section--Lehk 03:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Any type of hair?
"someone whose occupation is to cut any type of hair" - is this really the case? Nose hair, pubic, ...? Animals', dead bodies' ?

Barbers may cut any type of hair. It is not prohibited by law, but because of the nature of their clinical training they generally prefer mens hair. The only services a barber cannot perform that a cosmetologist may perform in the state of West Virginia at least is a manicure and permanent waving. Although the only barber school in the state doesn't offer a barbering course that exlcudes permanent waving. Refer to the West Virginia State Code for verification if you want to include this. - DoobieEx
 * State vary when it comes to guidelines. However in most states that mandate training in a school (and still have a independant Barber Board) it is mandatory that you learn how to cut Men and Womens Hair(There is no differance between female and male hair only hair types such as diameter, thickness, hair pattern, etc.). It is also mandatory you learn all chemical services as relates to the hair. The straight razor shave(at least neck shave) is also mandatory. We are also tested on it by means of a practical exam which includes(shave, facial, taper haircutwithout gaurds using proper combs and shears on the top, 3 perm rods to be placed and wrapped, describe chemical service applications, and neck shave. We have chapters that relate to skin treatments in the Milady Standard as well as anatomy of the head neck and face. For all intensive purposes we learn the same stuff. No one really knows that much after completeing school unless they have had advance training(such as videos and siminars) There is equally bad Hair cutters in both Hair Professions and equally good. Some of the Best what you think are Hair Salons are actually Barber Shops in hiding. Its a shame that the common thought when someone hears the word barber they think "Oh, they will buzz my hair if i go there!" Thanks to the old timers in the 70's refusing to cut longer hair on guy's. A true Barber(historically speaking can Cut any type of Hair and use anything from a clipper to a straight razor on your hair and make it do anything they want it to, Can do a smooth comfortable shave, and if it relates to hair they can take care of it, Men or Women alike. A taper Haircut is one of the hardest haircuts to give period and only a barber can do it. The invention of the Gaurd on clippers and the 1970's is the worst thing to ever happen to the barber industry except for the disposable razor and canned goo. I for one dont use gaurds and have a 50/50 client base and perform all services as relate to hair. Barbers of old where the go to guy's for cologne, hair products, etc for the distinguished gentleman of the day.

 * Cosmetologist cannot use an open blade on the skin except for some states that allow neck shaves under supervision of a licensed barber in the shop. Barbers cannot do nails unless they take the additional schooling and obtain that license.

 * In closing (Cosmetologist cant shave the face) & (Barber cant do nails) Barberofdeville76.18.198.211 (talk) 08:58, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Englishmen
"In Ireland it was enacted that, in order to be recognised as an Englishman, a man must have all the hair above his mouth shaven"

Should this be "under his mouth"? Englishmen with goatees and shaved heads?

You've neglected eyebrow & signature!!!!
Please note that tonsorial redirects here. Is there a way to write it into the article??

Thank You, [[ hopiakuta Please do  sign  your  signature  on your  message. %7e%7e  Thank You. -]] 00:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Closed on Mondays
Does anyone know why traditionally barbershops were closed on Mondays? I have heard it was because of the "strong arm" of the barber's union that forced towns to implement legislation prohibiting barbershops from doing business on Sundays and Mondays. Any truth to that?--207.206.136.106 (talk) 21:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * When I asked my barber that he said it was so people who worked (or went to school) 9 to 5, Monday threw Friday could get their hair cut on Saturdays. My local comic book shop keeps the same hours and when asked they gave the same reason. Lando242 (talk) 19:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The law itself was made by the Barber Union to protect barbers rights. No cutting on monday and sunday was so barbers had atleast 2 days off Sunday was chosen so those who wanted to attend church could if they so chose and monday because it was usually the slowest of the week. As far as no individual shall work on: its there to promote brotherhood and keep out competition. Rules and regulation are usually there for a reason. This one in particular was to protect peoples rights from there employers and to maintain a code of brotherhood. Some states even went as far as having a mandatory rate for services. Most state Barber boards only answer to the governor of that state. Barberofdeville-Master Barber (talk) 03:47, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The Definition of Barber on the main page is incorrect and the history is lacking
'''The definition of barber on the main page is incorrect as it only contains part of the definition. Barbers are not specifically male hair dressers. The definitions of Hair Dresser are also incorrect by published dictionary's standards. It give misinformation on the trade and its history. It also gives one the impression that barbers only do mens hair or that some go outside this scope to do womens hair. That is not the case historically. Cosmetology came much later after the 1900's as a profession. The first Cosmetology school was started by a Barber. It is sad that you have made the definition and history of a trade with much history so small in scope in comparison on this page.

In fact barbering as a term is the definition of any and all things relating to hair care. Barbers where the first wigmakers, the first to use chemical treatments on the hair. Cosmetology schools do not teach this history as they want to get as far away from being deemed a barber as they can because of the image the barber industry has. Today's barber for the most part is not what it once was that is for sure with most barber's skills only able to use a gaurd and cut a fade or short men's cut. However this page should show the history of the profession as it relates to all other professions that provide hair care and beauty services(it is the alpha, the beginning of all. I feel that the page as of now is condescinding as it only states the profession today as the history of it and uses terms such as fancy haircuts or derogatory definitions. It has been a profession since the beginning of written history and should be treated as such. (To say that some barbers consider themselves hair stylist is because most only cut mens hair is like saying some Cosmetologist consider themselves make-up artist because most cosmetologist dont provide make-up services.) Make this page pure not some misconcieved attempt at generalizing a profession without doing the proper research.

There are terms you forgot tomention and have lumped the word barber with a type of institution of Barber and they are differant: Barber Shop: Predominantly male oriented shop that caters to a male client base who provide Haircuts, Shave, Beard Shaping and trimming,and sometimes color service. Mainly have a male client base who perfer shorter hair styles and most will also perform womens cuts as well but are limited to what specific ability's of the barbers at that particuliar shop.

Barber Salon: Caters to Men and Women. Provides Haircutting, Chemical Services, Facial Massage, up-do's, Hair Styling, waxing, etc. Some will offer Straight Razor Shaves, and Nail services by a Nail Tech.

Barber Parlor: Usually Traditional looking Barber Shop emphasizing the 1920's-1960's methodology and interior

Tonsorial Parlor: Can be any of the above but almost always relates to being a Licensed Barber establishment.

Men's Salon: Can be either cosmetology shop, Barber Shop, or Combined License Shop that focus's on a male client base only.

Barber Stylist: Term that describes a Barber who has been trained in both Men's and Womens Hair Services.

Barber (from the Latin barba, "beard") a person whose occupation it is to cut and dress the hair of customers, esp. men, and perform shaves, and trim beards. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/barber?jss=1

Hair Dresser: Main Entry: hair·dress·er Pronunciation: -ˌdre-sər Function: noun Date: 1764 '''1: a person whose occupation is the dressing or cutting of hair 2British : barber "Websters Dictionary"'''

Hair Stylist: Main Entry: hair·styl·ist Pronunciation: -ˌstī-list Function: noun Date: 1935 : hairdresser ; especially : a person who does creative styling of coiffures "Websters Dictionary (Hair period, Men have long hair too and Hair is Hair)

Ton*so"ri*al\, a. [L. tonsorius, fr. tonsor a shearer, barber, fr. tondere, tonsum, to shear. See Tonsure.] Of or pertaining to a barber, or shaving. of or relating to a barber or the work of a barber "Websters Dictionary" Relating to a barber or barbering, the shearing shaving styling or cutting of hair, usually at a barber shop. www.urbandictionary.com

Cosmetologist: Main Entry: cos·me·tol·o·gist Pronunciation: ˌkäz-mə-ˈtä-lə-jist Function: noun Date: 1926 : a person who gives beauty treatments (as to skin and hair) —called also beautician "Websters Dictionary"--

Here is what it should look like or atleast have this info on it.'''

In previous times, barbers also performed surgery and dentistry. page of. In more recent times, with the development of safety razors and the decreasing prevalence of beards, most barbers primarily cut hair. Some hairdressers consider the term derogatory. The term Hair dresser stems from the term Barbering not from Cosmetology(it came after and has a differant meaning)

Although many barbers may still deal with facial hair when requested, in American and Commonwealth culture most barbers specialize in the simple cutting of men's hair. They do not generally offer significant styling or 'fancy' haircuts when compared to hairdressers working in hair salons.(generalization with a derogatory statement at the end, not fact)

The place where a barber works is generally called a barbershop, or simply the "barber's".

Terminology A hairdresser is a universal term referring to someone whose occupation is to cut or style hair in order to change or maintain a person's image. '''Actually the definition isnt universal it actually refers to cutting or styling hair and the term for that is called tonsorial arts. Here is the definition of tonsorial(: of or relating to a barber or the work of a barber. Here is the definition for Cosmetology (: the cosmetic treatment of the skin, hair, and nails) which refers to Chemical services, and treatments of the hair, not cutting. It was actually a branch off of barbering in the early 1900's that specifically taught chemical services and all other cosmetic applications other than cutting the hair and shaving, or trimming) A.B. Moler started the first Barber school that taught only cutting hair, shaving, and trimming the beard and later expanded this to start the first coursework for cosmetology a division of barbering relating to chemical services and cosmetic application and also adress womens hair cutting)''' Even todays cosmetology considers the coursework for hair cutting as "Barbering"

This is achieved using a combination of hair coloring, haircutting and hair texture techniques.

Some barbers prefer to see themselves as hairdressers or hairstylists(We are all as we do hair and the definition of barber includes these;I.E. any one who does hair is considered this). There is a common misbelief that barbers do not perform any service other than hair cutting, and that cosmetologists perform all coloring and perms(thats because of sites that generalize our profession from an outside understanding making statements not based on fact). In fact, barbers can(can? no the word is Do) cut hair, trim beards, color, perm, provide facials, and shave. They are also licensed to work with artificial hair replacement products (toupées, etc). Many working stylists are legally barbers(and some stylists are legally cosmetologists, once again refering to barber as lesser rthan cosmetology when it comes to the term stylist which you say does not differentiate). There is some professional rivalry between barbers and cosmetologists, both of which are licensed and regulated. At one time, both groups were allowed to cut hair, but only barbers were allowed to shave or trim beards(still only barbers by law can perform a shave): this required mastering the arcane technique of using a straight razor. Today, barbers and stylists may be found working side by side in establishments known as male salons(or female salons. once again generalizing a term that has a solid definition). Male salons have afforded the barber the opportunity to remain traditional in all aspects of the term(traditional as of 1900's on), yet also progressively contemporary as fashion and trends evolve. In male salons, hairstylists and barbers seek to accommodate the modern male hairstyle trends by employing traditional hair styling and straight razor shaves with modern practices, such as texturizing techniques and color.(once again generalizing a profession on a common misconception)

History

History of Barbering as posted on "barberpole.com" http://www.barberpole.com/artof.htm and can be colaborated with Milady Standard Textbook.

The word "barber" comes from the Latin word "barba," meaning beard. It may surprise you to know that the earliest records of barbers show that they were the foremost men of their tribe. They were the medicine men and the priests. But primitive man was very superstitious and the early tribes believed that both good and bad spirits, which entered the body through the hairs on the head, inhabited every individual. The bad spirits could only be driven out of the individual by cutting the hair, so various fashions of hair cutting were practiced by the different tribes and this made the barber the most important man in the community. In fact, the barbers in these tribal days arranged all marriages and baptized all children. They were the chief figures in the religious ceremonies. During these ceremonies, the hair was allowed to hang loosely over the shoulders so that the evil spirits could come out. After the dancing, the long hair was cut in the prevailing fashion by the barbers and combed back tightly so that the evil spirits could not get in or the good spirits get out.

This rule by barbers was a common thing in ancient Asia. In fact, wherever there were legends and superstitions about the hair, the barbers flourished. To this day in India, the veneration of the hair continues and those who cut and dress the hair are important characters.

SHAVED HEADS AND BEARDS In Egypt, many centuries before Christ, barbers were prosperous and highly respected. The ancient monuments and papyrus show that the Egyptians shaved their beards and their heads. The Egyptian priests even went so far as to shave the entire body every third day. At this time the barbers carried their tools in open-mouthed baskets and their razors were shaped like small hatchets and had curved handles. The Bible tells us that when Joseph was summoned to appear before Pharaoh, a barber was sent for to shave Joseph, so that Pharaoh's sight would not be offended by a dirty face.

In Greece, barbers came into prominence as early as the fifth century, BC. These wise men of Athens rivaled each other in the excellence of their beards. Beard trimming became an art and barbers became leading citizens. Statesmen, poets and philosophers, who came to have their hair cut or their beards trimmed or curled and scented with costly essences, frequented their shops. And, incidentally, they came to discuss the news of the day, because the barber shops of ancient Greece were the headquarters for social, political, and sporting news. The importance of the tonsorial art in Greece may be gathered from the fact that a certain prominent Greek was defeated for office because his opponent had a more neatly trimmed beard.

In the third century, BC, the Macedonians under Alexander the Great began their conquest of Asia and lost several battles to the Persians who grabbed the Macedonians by their beards, pulled them to the ground and speared them. This resulted in a general order by Alexander that all soldiers be clean-shaven. The civilians followed the example of the soldiers and beards lost their vogue. Barbers were unknown in Rome until 296 BC, when Ticinius Mena came to Rome from Sicily and introduced shaving. Shaving soon became the fashion and the barber shop became the gathering place for the Roman dandies. No people were better patrons of the barbers than the Romans. They often devoted several hours each day to tonsorial operations, which included shaving, hair cutting, hairdressing, massaging, manicuring and the application of rare ointments and cosmetics of unknown formulas. The great ladies of Rome always had a hairdresser among their slaves and the rich nobles had private tonsors, as they were then called. Barbers were so highly prized that a statue was erected to the memory of the first barber of Rome.

When Hadrian became emperor, beards became the fashion again -- and for a very good reason. Hadrian had a face covered with warts and scars. He allowed his beard to grow to cover these blemishes. The people of Rome imitated the emperor and grew beards whether they needed them or not.

The fashion changed again to clean-shaven faces. We know that Caesar was clean-shaven. As we will see repeated in history many times, the leaders of the state were the leaders of fashion and the people were always ready to follow the prevailing styles. There are many passages in the Bible referring to the barber profession. Moses commanded that all who recovered from leprosy should be shaved. This was done as a health precaution, because throughout history the Jews have honored the beard as a badge of manhood. To this day, the orthodox Jews have little respect for clean-shaven men. During periods of mourning, the ancient Jews allowed their beards to go untrimmed, but ordinarily their beards were trimmed regularly. The prophet Ezekiel refers to an ancient custom in these words: "Take thou a barber's razor and cause it to pass upon thy head and upon thy beard." The razors of those days were made of flint and oyster shells.

ASSISTANTS TO CLERGY During the first centuries of the Christian era, the barbers of Europe practiced their profession wherever it was the custom to shave the face and trim the beard. Charlemagne made long, flowing hair the fashion, but each new conqueror changed the fashion according to his whim and personal needs. During the first ten centuries after Christ, the great majority of the people and even the nobles were uneducated and could neither read nor write. The most learned people of the times were the monks and priests who became the physicians of the dark ages. There were no professional surgeons at that time. Most of the diseases, which are easily curable now, were fatal then. "Bloodletting" was the popular method of curing all ills. The clergy who enlisted barbers as their assistants first performed this. This was the first step in the upward progress of the barber profession. Barbers continued to act as assistants to the physician-clergy, until the 12th century. At the council of Tours in 1163, the clergy were forbidden to draw blood or to act as physicians and surgeons on the grounds that it was sacrilegious for ministers of God to draw blood from the human body. The barbers took up the duties relinquished by the clergy and the era of barber-surgeons began. The connection between barbery and surgery continued for more than six centuries and the barber profession reached its pinnacle during this time.

FIRST BARBER ORGANIZATION The earliest known organization of barbers was formed in 1096 in France when William, archbishop of Rouen, prohibited the wearing of a beard. The barber-surgeon, or chirurgeons, began to thrive all over Europe. They were the doctors of the times and the royalty as well as the common people came to the barbers to have their ills treated as well as for shaving and haircutting. The physicians proper were in continual conflict with the barber-surgeons. The barbers embraced dentistry as well as surgery and this brought down on them the enmity of the dentists of the times. This caused a long strife, whose settlement required the interference of kings and councils. Followed between the barbers and the regular surgeon-dentists. But the barbers retained the privilege of practicing dentistry and surgery for several centuries.

FOUNDED SCHOOL OF SURGERY In the middle of the 13th century, the barber companies of Paris, known as the Brotherhoods of St. Cosmos and St. Domain, founded the first school ever known for the systematic instruction of barbers in the practice of surgery. This school was later enlarged and became the model for schools of surgery during the Middle Ages. Many of the foremost surgeons of the times were students of the School of St. Cosmos and St. Domain. The establishment of this school was one of the greatest contributions ever made toward the progress of humanity. The oldest barber organization in the world, still known in London as the "Worshipful Company of Barbers," was established in 1308. Richard le Barbour, as the Master of the Barbers, was given supervision over the whole of his trade in London. Once a month he had to go the rounds and rebuke any barbers whom he found acting disgracefully or entering on other trades less reputable. The master of a city company not only had this power, but he successfully prevented unauthorized persons from practicing the barber profession. The Barbers Guild of the 14th Century was undoubtedly more powerful than any of the modern unions. The king and council sanctioned the Guilds and so they could enforce their regulations. It was not uncommon for violators of Guild regulations to suffer prison terms for their misdemeanors.

BARBERS AS SURGEONS Up to the year 1416, the barbers were not interfered with in the practice of surgery and dentistry. But it was soon evident that they were attempting too much. It was impossible to expect ordinary human beings to competently practice surgery, dentistry and the various tonsorial operations. People began to complain that the barber-surgeons were making them sick instead of well. Many barber-surgeons resorted to quackery in order to cover up their ignorance of medicine and anatomy. These abuses came to the attention of the mayor and council of London. In 1416 an ordinance was passed forbidding barbers from taking under their care any sick person in danger of death or maiming, unless within three days after being called in, they presented the patient to one of the masters of the Barber-Surgeon's Guild. Until 1461 the barbers were the only persons practicing surgery. The practice of surgery was still in its primitive stage, but new discoveries were being made regularly and the barbers found it impossible to keep up with the new discoveries and at the same time maintain their skill in dentistry and barbering. The surgeons began to forge to the front and became increasingly jealous of the privileges accorded the barbers. But for a long time they could do nothing to prevent the barbers from acting as surgeons. In 1450, the Guild of Surgeons was incorporated with the Barbers Company by act of parliament. Barbers were restricted to bloodletting, toothdrawing, cauterization and the tonsorial operations. However the board of governors, regulating the operations of the surgeons and barber-surgeons, consisted of two surgeons and two barbers. Every time a surgeon was given a diploma entitling him to practice his profession, the diploma had to be signed by two barbers as well as two surgeons. The surgeons resented this, but the barbers were very much favored by the monarchs and preserved their privileges until the middle of the 18th century. Henry VIII, Charles II and Queen Anne presented the barber-surgeons with valuable gifts and raised many of them to high offices. Under a clause in the Act of Henry VIII, the Barber-Surgeons were entitled to receive every year the bodies of four criminals who had been executed. The dissections were performed four times a year in the Barber-Surgeons Hall which still stands in London.

ORIGIN OF BARBER POLE The modern barber pole originated in the days when bloodletting was one of the principal duties of the barber. The two spiral ribbons painted around the pole represent the two long bandages, one twisted around the arm before bleeding and the other used to bind is afterward. Originally, when not in use, the pole with a bandage wound around it, so that both might be together when needed, was hung at the door as a sign. But later, for convenience, instead of hanging out the original pole, another one was painted in imitation of it and given a permanent place on the outside of the shop. This was the beginning of the modern barber pole.

ALLIANCE DISSOLVED As the science of medicine, surgery and dentistry advanced, the barbers became less and less capable of performing the triple functions of barber-surgeon-dentist. The surgeons wished to be separated entirely from the barbers and they petitioned parliament to sever the ancient relationship of the barbers and surgeons and compel each profession to adhere strictly to its own provinces. A committee was appointed by parliament to investigate the matter and the petition was favorably reported to parliament. By an act of parliament, which received the sanction of the king, the alliance between the barbers and surgeons was dissolved in June, 1745. Two separate companies were formed and the property, formerly owned by the barbers and surgeons jointly, was divided among the two companies.

PROFESSION DECLINES This marked the decline of the barber profession. Similar action was taken in France under the reign of Louis XIV. Toward the end of the 18th century the barbers of Europe had completely relinquished their right to perform any of the operations of surgery and dentistry, except in the small towns and out-of-the-way places where doctors and dentists were not obtainable. After the barbers were prohibited from practicing medicine, surgery and dentistry, they became mere mechanics and servants, subject to the whims of fashion. When wigs became the fashion during the 18th and part of the 19th century, barbers became wigmakers. Their profession had lost its ancient dignity and barbers had become laborers, instead of professional men. In England, America and all over the civilized world, the decline of the barber was a spectacle for all to see. Barber shops became hangouts, places where low characters assembled. Smutty stories, malicious scandal and gossip of all kinds characterized barber shops until a few years ago. A barber shop was a place where men showed their lower instincts and where women dared not enter.

AN UPWARD TREND Late in the nineteenth century there were several noteworthy events in the barber profession that gave it an upward trend, and the effects are still carrying onward and upward. How long it will be before the barber may be looked up to as a professional man, taking his place by the side of the dentist, chiropodist, chiropractor and other kindred professions, cannot be foretold, but it would seem both the public and the profession are ready for better things. In 1893, A. B. Moler of Chicago, established a school for barbers. This was the first institution of its kind in the world, and its success was apparent from its very start. It stood for higher education in the ranks, and the parent school was rapidly followed by branches in nearly every principle city of the United States. In the beginning of schools, simply the practical work of shaving, haircutting, facial treatments, etc., was taught as neither the public nor the profession were ready to accept scientific treatments of hair, skin and scalp. Not until about 1920 was much effort made to professionalize the work. www.barberpole.com

Soon after the first Barber School opened A.B. Moler opened the first Beauty College to standardize cosmetic applications as it relates to hair, skin, and nails. (He was a brilliant man and visionary)Later the Cosmetology would become its own profession and seperate itself from Barbering.

American Barber History Timeline 1770's Most of the Colonial Days were smooth shaven and many of the rich wore wigs. Also in the Colonial days barbering was hardly considered a white man's trade. Hence it was mostly confined to black barbers. Wealthy people became slave owners and the duty of the barber was shifted to the servants.

1799 George Washington was bled to death by his physician in 1799. He suffered from a prolonged windpipe infection. He died calmly counting his pulse at the age of sixty-seven.

1848 By 1848 bloodletting instruments had disappeared from most Doctors satchels.

1861 The beard did not come into it's own until the Civil War. 1861-1865

1865 After the Civil War with the influx of Dutch, Germans, Italians, and Swedish emmigrants, the white man began to thrive and the barber profession elevated.

1867 The Civil War that closely followed the Western movement brought more changes to America. Including the re-establishment of the barber shop as an accepted institution on Main Street.

1880's The average shop at this time cost approximately twenty dollars to equip and were ten by twelve feet in size. The shop consists of a straight-backed chair with a head piece resembling a crutch, a basin of water, a piece of common soap and a brush, 'setting' chairs and enough towels to last a week. "One towel to every ten to twelve customers." Hair cuts were five or ten cents and shaves were three cents.

1883 As people moved westward, there were little time for wigs and personal embellishments. The pioneer life was a hard one. The men let their hair grow as well as their beards.

1886 The Barbers Protective Union was formed on December 6, 1886 in Columbus, Ohio.

1887 The Protective Union becomes the Journeymen Barber's International on December 5, 1887.

1893 It was not until 1893 when A.B.Moler opened the first Barber School in Chicago. He also published textbooks at that time.

1897 In 1897 the State of Minnesota passed legislation for a barber license. For the next forty years various states enacted legislation whereby barbers were licensed and inspected for sterilization to protect the public from disease. With the enactment of the licensing laws and stringent inspections, diseases such as impetigo, anthrax, ringworm and barbers itch are seldom heard of today.

1924 The Associated Master Barber of America was organized in 1924 in Chicago, Illinois.

1940's World War II brought about short hair as barbers were called into service. The flat top, butch, crew cut and the Princeton cut became popular.

1959 In 1959 Edmond O. Roffler developed the Roffler Sculptur-Kut technique, a method were-by barbers could earn "big money" and capitalize on long hair. The Roffler-Kut system started with twenty barbers.

1960 In the early sixties the Beetles set the stage for ling hair. Many barbers who refused to learn the methods of cutting ling hair were soon out of business.

1975 The Roffler-Kut system now has over 6,000 barbers that have been trained in the Roffler Method. It is still being practiced today.

1981 In 1981 the Journeymen Barber International Union became part of the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union.

1985 Over fifty percent of barber students are female.

1995 Since 1995 over fifty percent of barber students are African-American.

2000's New technology and techniques continue to shape the future of barbering. Every year more young men and women choose the barber profession. The future of barbering is in their hands. "Ed Jeffers Museum of Barbering"

Here is a sample of what the requirements are to become licensed: ORNT 1000 Freshman Seminar 1

BARB 1110 History of Barbering and the Professional Image 2

CPTR 1000 Introduction to Computers 2

BARB 1120 Sanitation, Bacteriology, Safety with Tools, Implements, and Equipment Theory and Practice 2

BARB 1131 Sanitation, Bacteriology, Safety with Tools, Implements, and Equipment Lab 1

BARB 1160 Men's/Women's Basic Haircutting/Styling Theory & Practice 2

BARB 1220 Shaving, Mustaches, and Beards Theory& Practice 1

BARB 1211 Barber-Styling Lab I 4

BARB 1410 Electricity and Safety 1

BARB 1140 Facial Massage and Treatments Theory & Practice 2

BARB 1150 Properties/Disorders/Treatments of Skin, Scalp, & Hair Theory and Practice 2

BARB 1231 Barber-Styling Lab II 2

'''BARB 1310 Permanent Waving/Chemical Hair Relaxing Theory & Practice 3

BARB 1321 Permanent Waving/Chemical Hair''' Relaxing Lab 2

BARB 1350 Chemistry 2

BARB 1420 Anatomy and Physiology 2

BARB 1430 Men's Hairpieces Theory 1

BARB 1441 Barber-Styling Lab III 5

BARB 2630 Professionalism for Barber Styling 1

'''BARB 1330 Hair Coloring Theory and Practice 2

BARB 1341 Hair Coloring Lab 2'''

BARB 2111 Barber-Styling Shop Management and Sales 2

TD - Barber Styling 53

Notice what's in bold...thats right basic men and women's cutting, color theory, and chemical services. It is only after schooling that barbers decide they only want to do men's hair and the majority of the profession do. Most also do not perform shaves(some of us do regularly) but it doesnt mean that we no longer do them a a general rule or dont do fancy haircuts. Please when making a wiki do not put a standard generalization of part of an industry. Make the wiki factual and make it as what it "technically is" and not what it is considered to be. There are very few differances between thethings taught in Barber school vs Cosmetology school. The only real differances are focus, when it relates to hair is that most cosmetology schools focus on shear cutting(called pivot point hair cutting in most schools)and color theory and barbers focus more on clipper over comb and shear over comb methodology. Only barbers can perform shaves, and only cosmetologist can perform nail services and Make-up application.

Truth of the matter is there are many great cosmetologist and many great barbers but there are just as many mediocre of both that cannot do color or cut hair to save there life. One is not better than the other and both are filled with talentless hacks and both are filled with spectacular professionals. A Barber by profession and education can do everything as it relates to hair from Hair Cutting to haircolor & highlights, Chemical Perms and the shave. The guy that does clipper cuts all day in a dirty shop using gaurds only does not make for a definition nor does the bookie/barber.

Please base your work on what the required learning is and what the definition states followed by actual full out history.(there are books written on the subject of Barber History) Barberofdeville-Master Barber (talk) 03:46, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Derogatory term
In the article intro it is remarked that "Some hairdressers consider the term derogatory" - the cited source was a dead link, but I've now rectified this. However, I'm still unsure of the encyclopaedic nature of the remark. From what I can gather, it all stems from one isolated incident in India, whereby a Hairdressers' Association objected to the term 'Barber' being used in a movie. I've not seen any accounts of other groups expressing similar sentiments, and wonder if this one, localised incident can be considered noteworthy or indicative of the feelings of a significant proportion of hairdressers worldwide. (Given that the only coverage I can find of the assoc. in question relates to this story, I can't even be sure if they represent a significant proportion of Indian hairdressers) AJCham2097 (talk) 15:57, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Classificatins of Hairdressing
Cutting and styling includes the use of traditionally scissors and razors and in recent years a hair chisel.

colouring includes Foiling, solid colours, Bayalage, Streaking, Organic colouring, tinting, High lift colours, ionic colours and chemical colurs.

Chemical reformation includes Permanant wafes curls relaxing straightening, ionic straightening and cool smoothing.

Styling includes freehand styling, combing, brushing, bolw waving or drying, up-dos, avantgarde styling and setting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.100.89.103 (talk) 09:51, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Terminology depends on location
A lot of content of this page assumes US understanding. Could people refer to which location thay are writing about? I have added info on Australian terminology as definitions are different for different countries/states. Supt. of Printing (talk) 06:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Texas Barbershop Photo
The picture of the restored barbershop in texas says something about the barber pole being horizontal. That is not the barber pole. That is a post to tie a horse's reigns to. The striped pattern was just a stylistic element added by the barber. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.183.161.117 (talk) 01:15, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Notable barbers
There needs to be a section for notable individuals in this profession throughout history. This includes Meryma'at, the famous Egyptian barber who has a statue of him, as well as many others. A short list is here. Ifteebd10 (talk) 14:34, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

WP:ENGVAR
This edit established the usage of the page as American English. Kindly maintain it consistently pending a new consensus to the contrary. — Llywelyn II   01:12, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Evaluation
While there seems to be a great start to this article, the overall flow of the information feels a little choppy. There is some great information here in the talk page that would be great to add to the article itself which could help tie the info together more and make the article feel more complete. If anyone knows where those sources are that was used to give all of that info, they should be listed so updates can be made. Xbeagley13 (talk) 20:07, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Barber


text:
User talk:Mohylek

Welcome, from Journalist
Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  Journalist ''' C./ Holla @ me! |undefined
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How to delete
Now you'll be able to nominate stuff yourself for deletion. Link to User:Brendanconway/AFD for instructions. This is for standard deletions. Speedy deletions on the other hand - criteria at Criteria for speedy deletion. For speedy deletion put [{{db|(reason)}] (just whats between brackets) at top of page. Have many happy hours deleting.--File Éireann 22:43, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Savour the chance to vote at Articles for deletion/Ibox!--File Éireann 22:55, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: Image talk:Zielona Góra - plan.png
Przez przypadek trafiłem na Twoją uwagę. U mnie na monitorze widać zieleń (ciemna), a nie czerń. Może to wina monitorów, ze się różnie wyświetla. Od jakiegoś czasu zabieram się za poprawienie tej grafiki (wiadukt na Batorego jest źle poprowadzony, plus legendę i skalę trzeba dodać), to poprawie może na inną zieleń :). Na razie brak mi czasu i wyleciał mi z komputera program, do edytowania svg. Jakbyś chciał poedytować tą grafikę, to źródło jest tutaj: commons:Image talk:Zielona Góra - plan.png. Kotasik 19:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Image:Poznan Poland.jpg
This is an excellent photograph. Is it ok for this image to be a selected article at the architecture portal? DVD+ R/W 21:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm pleased to hear that. Of, course, do whatever you please. If you need the pic in a better resolution contact me at " omasz @ centrum.cz " or leave your e-mail here Mohylek 23:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Image deleted
Hello!

I delete your photo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kubek.JPG and added to commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Mug_Kubek.JPG

I wish if you upp more photos to wikipedia will be on commons instead of a single language wikipedia, please.

Bye!

PD: i haven't a user in the en:wikipedia, but in the spanish wikipedia is: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuario:Cels PD: sorry by my poor english.

Image source problem with Image:Breznak.gif
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NowCommons: File:Metrobudowa.jpg
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Speedy deletion nomination of Březňák

A tag has been placed on Březňák requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

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Proposed deletion of Březňák

The article Březňák has been proposed for deletion  because of the following concern:
 * '''No clear significance.

No links to external sources showing significance. In five years no expansion of article beyond a single sentence.'''

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ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:09, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:33, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Dačický

The article Dačický has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern: "No evidence this product passes WP:NCOMPANY/GNG. BEFORE does not show anything but mentions in passing. No valid redirect/merge target (not mentioned in any article outside see also section; no referenced content to merge, redirect to Heineken goes against WP:R)."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:21, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Nomination of Dačický for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Dačický is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Dačický until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Proposed deletion of File:Czechbeers.jpg

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While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the file's talk page.

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title: User talk:Mohylek


text: User talk:62.135.93.57

title: User talk:62.135.93.57


text:
Tonye Patano

Tonye T. Patano (born October 16, 1961) is an American actress. She may be best known as Heylia James on the television series Weeds.

She has appeared in television shows such as Law & Order, Sex and the City, Monk and Third Watch. Patano was in the original cast of the Broadway play, 45 Seconds from Broadway by Neil Simon.

Film and television
Patano's first screen role was in the 1984 television film The Jesse Owens Story. She has appeared on several television series in guest roles, including Sex and the City, Monk, Third Watch, Curb Your Enthusiasm and Elementary. Patano has played various characters throughout the Law & Order franchise.

She appeared as Carolyn in Highway Heartbreaker (1992), and had a small role in A Price Above Rubies (1998). Other film work includes Little Manhattan and The Great New Wonderful, both released in 2005.

In 2005, Patano landed the role of Heylia James, a marijuana dealer, on Weeds. She received a Screen Actors Guild Award nomination for Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a Comedy Series alongside her Weeds co-stars in 2006. Two years later, Patano earned an NAACP Image Award nomination for Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Comedy Series as Heylia. Patano left the series at the conclusion of its third season, later returning in season 7 on a recurring basis.

Following Weeds, she portrayed Emily in Hallmark movie Loving Leah (2009). Patano was Beverly, a counselor, in A Vigilante (2018). She played a probation officer in drama Jack of the Red Hearts (2015).

Stage
Patano portrayed Nurse O'Neil in a 1997 production of The Sunshine Boys at the George Street Playhouse. One reviewer claimed she was "excellent" in the role. In 2000, she received a Connecticut Critics Circle Award for best ensemble after acting in From the Mississippi Delta. Patano appeared on Broadway as Ms. Gravátt in 45 Seconds from Broadway (2001).

She played the role of brothel owner Mama Nadi in Ruined for the Huntington Theater. Her performance in this production received positive reception, with one critic calling her "delightful" and "magnetic." Another found her superb in the role of Mama Nadi.

Personal life
At age 35, she was diagnosed with diabetes, and she suffered a stroke in 2005.

title: Tonye Patano


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/New earth homes

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was DELETE BOTH. -Splash 22:07, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

New earth homes
NN Adspam, conominated with identical supercustomhomes.com. Was listed on WP:CP but author says it's his own text to publish. Create CSD criteria for advertising. — Lomn | Talk / RfC 19:14:43, 2005-09-01 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ad. DV8 2XL 19:39, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Blatant advertising. Delete all. - Lucky 6.9 20:40, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Obvious ad, not even an attempt at making it sort of sound slightly like an encyclopedia article. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 21:15, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
USS Grapple

Two ships in the United States Navy have been named USS Grapple.

 * USS Grapple (ARS-7), commissioned in 1943, struck in 1977 and sold to Taiwan.
 * USS Grapple (ARS-53), commissioned in 1985..

title: USS Grapple


text: User talk:81.129.73.88

title: User talk:81.129.73.88


text:
Mike Wengren

Michael Wengren (born September 3, 1971) is an American drummer, best known for his work with heavy metal band Disturbed. He is one of the founding members of the band, which was formed in 1994. Wengren is known for his bass drum techniques that have become a staple of Disturbed's music.

Biography
Born and raised in Chicago, Illinois, Wengren has been playing drums since around the age of 10. He attended Curie High School on the Southwest side of Chicago.

He has been quoted as saying that Metallica, Slayer, Judas Priest, Testament, Mötley Crüe, Pantera, Iron Maiden, and Racer X were his strongest influences.

On August 31, 2005, before the set closed, frontman David Draiman handed the microphone to Wengren, who invited his girlfriend onstage and proposed marriage to her.

In 2013, Wengren pursued a side project band, Fight or Flight, in collaboration with Disturbed member Dan Donegan. In 2020, Wengren became a partial owner of Steel Tank Brewing Company in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin.

Endorsements
In recent years, Wengren has appeared in advertisements for Pearl Drums, since the Masters Series was his first professional kit purchased from Midwest Percussion the early 1990s. Wengren uses Evans Hydraulic Glass drumheads on all toms and EQ3 heads on both bass drums. He has been added to the Vater Signature line of drumsticks, which now has a Mike Wengren model. Additionally, he uses Sabian cymbals.

His previous tour kit was a 'cranberry fade' Pearl MRX Masters Series drumset with black hardware. Wengren's tour kit in support of the album Ten Thousand Fists was a 'vintage sunburst' variation of the same drumset, also with black hardware.

Brawl

 * Demo Tape (1994)

Disturbed

 * The Sickness (2000)
 * Believe (2002)
 * Ten Thousand Fists (2005)
 * Indestructible (2008)
 * Asylum (2010)
 * The Lost Children (2011)
 * Immortalized (2015)
 * Evolution (2018)
 * Divisive (2022)

Fight or Flight

 * A Life by Design? (2013)

Other appearances

 * "Let the Truth Be Known" (2008)
 * "A Song for Chi" (2009)

Awards and nominations
Loudwire Music Awards

 * 2015 || Mike Wengren || Best Drummer || Nominated
 * 2015 || Mike Wengren || Best Drummer || Nominated

title: Mike Wengren


text:
West Texas High School

West Texas High School is a public high school in Stinnett, Texas (USA). In 1987 three great schools and communities, Plemons, Stinnett and Phillips joined forces to create the Plemons-Stinnett-Phillips Consolidated Independent School District. Three mascots, the Plemons Indians, Stinnett Rattlers and the Phillips Blackhawks were blended together to create the Comanches. The campuses of the district, West Texas Elementary School, West Texas Middle School and West Texas High School are all united as Comanches. The school is classified as a 2A school by the UIL. In 2015, the school was rated "Met Standard" by the Texas Education Agency.

Athletics
The West Texas Comanches compete in these sports

 * Baseball
 * Basketball 2018 2A UIL State Champs
 * Cross Country
 * Football
 * Golf
 * Powerlifting
 * Softball
 * Tennis
 * Track and Field
 * Volleyball

State Titles

 * One Act Play -
 * 1994(2A), 1997(2A), 1998(2A)

2A Boys Basketball State Championship **2018

title: West Texas High School


text:
User:Monkeyman1235

I'm a sockpuppet. Get with the program. I don't want the creeps/morons/wackos shadowing me the way they've been shadowing other Wikiusers who disagree with them.

title: User:Monkeyman1235


text:
User:Rhyddfrydol

User Rhyddfrydol has many and varied interests - ranging from flags, Royalty, the Commonwealth and sport in the Commonwealth, political history, filmography, Cymru and much more.

title: User:Rhyddfrydol