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Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 17

Template:TOCright
I would like to express my concern that this template is being used to the detriment of some editors - and to the delight of others. I feel that we should not be editing the placement of the TOC because a) being at the top of the page not good. From a style perspective, it is best to place an image on the right hand side of the page. Have a look at any advertisment - this is standard practice. Having the TOC on the right-hand side of the page at the very top of the lead section is, to put it bluntly, awful. Firstly, it goes some way to negating the lead section (it becomes less clear that it is a lead section, and besides which the TOC does not list the lead section anyway!). Further, one of our great advantages is to do with consistency. Applying this template to, say Windows 2000 would not be acceptable because it would kill off the infobox. This leads me to a further point: when does the template get used? Always at the top of the article? Under the last section (an extreme point, but must be raised)? What happens if someone makes a change to the template and adds _NOTOC_ ? That will effect all the pages that use it. Also - if we start applying it to every page, won't this cause a performance issue for Wikipedia? This may or may not be a valid point.

I would also like to express concern that people are trying to enforce a change to the default layout of Wikipedia without gaining consensus (I certainly was never told about this, and only noticed it when it was applied to W. Mark Felt - something I changed because as a reasonably major editor of that page - I sorted out the footnotes - I was never informed about such a radical layout change). If we are going to change the layout, then it should be done via CSS on the main monobook stylesheet - I doubt that consensus to change this would be gained, however. Put simply: if some editors dislike the TOC being on the left hand side underneath the lead section then they should modify their personal style sheet.

I would like to see something hashed out of this page that addresses this issue. Soemthing about changing default elements such as the TOC. - Ta bu shi da yu 5 July 2005 02:36 (UTC)

Call for MoS
Defaults are precisely that, defaults. they are what we get when we don't make changes. Editign tools are there to be used. if we souldn't ever change the TOC placement, then the software should not provide this ability.

Your argument that this should be changed by individuals in their personal CSS, or that it should be done by the default VSS stylesheet I think is invalid. It shouldn't be done in the main stylesheet because this isn't intended to be a change to the derfault, it is intended to be a formatting change to particualr articles. It shouldn't be done in indiviuduals own personal CSS because it is intended for all readers of a particualr articel, and because many of the readers for whom it is intended neither know how to, nor care to, make such adjustments, particularly on an article by article basis.

That said, this is a mater of style, and there should, IMO, by a style guideline on when and how to use Template:TOCright and Template:TOCleft. For example, placement of them so that the TOC crosses a section boundry is probably a poor idea. Template:TOCleft doesn't look well when the adjacent text is part of a bulleted list. More generally, these tempaltes are probably betr used when the TYOC is long but not wide, and probably better used after the lead section or at least a lead paragraph, in most cases.

I think this should be discussed here, we should come to a consensus if possibl;e, and a proper MOS section should be writtne on non-default TOC placement: when and how to do it. DES 5 July 2005 16:47 (UTC)

Page layouts

 * I like having this option. In publishing, photographs of people should always look into the center of the page, toward the text, because the readers' eye is drawn to the direction of the body, face, or eyes, and we want the readers' eye to move toward the text. We therefore shouldn't have a rule that photographs always have to be on the top righthand side, because it isn't always possible to find a photograph that looks to the left. If we only have a photograph that looks to the right, it should on the left of the page. With a photo on the left, the TOC might look better on the right, so that's a good option to have. It's also nice in some articles to embed the TOC on the right in the text, rather than have all that white space, especially with a long TOC. I therefore see these options for editors as enhancing the content, as well as the creative input of the contributors. SlimVirgin (talk) July 5, 2005 17:13 (UTC)

 * Thank you, I quite agree. That is why i created TOCleft, as an exact parallel to TOCright. DES 5 July 2005 17:25 (UTC)

 * Thank you for doing that. I find it makes editing more interesting, being able to make some layout decisions. I get a lot of satisfaction out of trying to make a page look good, and that makes me want to make the text better too. SlimVirgin (talk) July 5, 2005 17:46 (UTC)

 * The analogy of a web page, such as a Wikipedia page, to a magazine page is flawed— and the flaw is instructive. A bound magazine has an outer margin, desirable for images, and a central margin, called the gutter where the page disappears. An image in this central position is said to be "guttered", and its legibility and appearance are compromised. A web page is neither recto nor verso: it is perfectly neutral. People who insist that images "must" be on the right hand edge or in the upper right corner are misinformed. They are merely exercising their authoritarian training or their current position of authority, sometimes at the expense of a good layout. --Wetman 5 July 2005 18:07 (UTC)
 * The analogy is imperfect but not completely without merit. As I view pages (Monobook plus a few user styles), they have a pretty clear recto feel. I suspect most people using Monobook would perceive it this way, though I may be wrong. Anyway, I agree that it's unreasonable to inflict some absolute standard on all pages. There should be a guideline, however, on when it is and is not appropriate to override the Wikipedia default. Pages that are essentially long lists without much introductory text would be good candidates for deviating from the standard. — HorsePunchKid → 龜 July 5, 2005 19:43 (UTC)
 * Indeed, one may be wrong. For this editor then, even a notepad bound at the top would have a "recto feel." So, how about the magnets on the refrigerator door? Left-opening or right-opening makes a difference even there. The fact is, there are four focus points within any stable, isolated rectangular format; there the eye darts first, and a Wikipedia page is more like a rectangular painting— think of a travel poster, then— than a page bound into a book, with a gutter down one side. As one reaches the edges of one's competence, one might begin to rein in one's confidence.... but I could be wrong. --Wetman 23:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't totally clear there. The page seems recto to me because there's a huge gutter on the left side. That's all I was getting at. I know my stylesheet is a little non-standard, but as I recall, the default Monobook style also has this huge margin on the left. The main content area is definitely not an isolated rectangle! — HorsePunchKid → 龜  06:23, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * As one reaches the edges of one's competence, one might begin to rein in one's confidence.... but I could be wrong. — By the way, what exactly was the point of this comment? — HorsePunchKid → 龜  00:33, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Floating TOC

 * Back on June 29 I created a section on the use of a floating TOC at Section. You are welcome to comment and suggest any changes that might be needed. —Mike July 5, 2005 18:14 (UTC)

 * Mike, thank you for linking that discussion re floating the TOC. I'd already commented on the current templates for deletion proposal regarding TOCright. Your discussion regarding floating it seems quite level-headed and recommends scenarios where it might work well to position it on the right (or left) and where it may not. Currently, however, we have editors who - rightly or wrongly - feel a right-hand placement simply "looks better" generally; on an article. ...On any article. If a carefully thought-out style guidance document can be written on the template's use I am open to re-thinking my personal vote re template (currently 'delete'). I think such a document could only ever be a general guide since people above seem to concur a) personal subjectivity enters in (see Wetman) and b) on some articles it may will not only fail to improve the article at least in the view of editors other than the Wikipedian who re-positioned it, but will have potential to cause the page to 'look a mess' to a majority? Whitehorse1 | July 29 2024 (UTC)

A suggestion: Considering how long the discussion currently is at WP:TFD, and how long this discussion has grown already, it is probably best to copy both discussions to a separate Wikipedia article. Especially since this discussion will presumably end up setting some Wikipedia policy on the issue, that just another reason to have this discussion on a separate page.

My personal opinion on the issue is that I HATE the large amount of white space that results from long, narrow TOCs. I really don't care if the TOC ends up on the left or right, just as long as there is some way to "float" the TOC, either through the use of templates or through changes in the software. (If the WikiMedia software was changed, it would also be nice to be able to control the display of the levels of section in the TOC, so you could say only display the first and second levels—sure there are ways to fake that, but that's such a kludge). Blank Verse  ∅ 5 July 2005 22:05 (UTC)

 * I agree 100%. Float that thing, and wrap the text around it leaving a crisp frame and a good clean white margin to set it off. (forgot to sign: Wetman 00:29, 14 July 2005 (UTC))

Initially I was against it, but saw some good examples of its use. I really think that it should be a last resort, and mainly only used for long lists with large TOCs. violet/riga (t) 5 July 2005 23:48 (UTC)

 * (Responding above, so as not to move the comment relative to teh next section divide) As I see this, the heading line stops short of the image, there is a little white space, and then the image. I am using IE 6 (from work) and AOL dial up (from home) and default wikipedia display. DES 6 July 2005 02:01 (UTC)

 * See the image on the right: the heading line "cuts" the template. How do we sort this out? If we could find out for this template, then I would also sort out Template:Islam, which does the same thing. - Ta bu shi da yu 6 July 2005 00:10 (UTC)

 * I'm beginning to think that you are "off your rocker"...no offense intended. :-)  Unless I misunderstand what you mean, I don't see any cutting.  The TOC is whole and is not cut in that image.  Maybe what you are really wanting is a margin around the TOC so that the heading line doesn't touch the TOC?  I actually like the way it appears, but that is just my style preference.  —Mike July 6, 2005 03:28 (UTC)

 * Sorry, it's sometimes hard to explain how things look :-) No offense taken (it's quite possible I am crazy...)! However, have the line go under the TOC looks like it's been slapped on as an after-thought... same with Template:Islam. I think the TOC is sorted now... - Ta bu shi da yu 7 July 2005 00:01 (UTC)

 * I think Mike has it exactly: a margin round the TOC would keep lines from appearing to run under it and similarly keep text from squashing up against it. Much better looking (and that is personal subjectivity!) --Wetman 00:29, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The thing I've noticed is that when a floating TOC is used in a "Special" page (like a talk page or a WikiProject page), the margin is hardcoded to white, when the background is light blue, it just looks wrong. Is there any way to fix that? -- Titoxd 00:48, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I fiddled with it before trying to get it to work and came up with the conclusion that it would require a CSS change for monobook. For some (silly) reason the monobook style is the only one that uses a different color for its "special" pages.  On my notebook that light blue is almost indistinguishable from the normal white.  (I have to tilt my screen at an angle to see the contrast.) —Mike 06:44, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

When and how to use
Let us leave the technical question of exactly how to properly implement this template, and return to the style questions: when and how to use it. Do most here agree that it is a good idea on some articles, and a bad idea on others? That it should not become the default style on all or almost all articles, but neither should it be banned? That it works particularly well on lists? That it tends to be a good idea on articles with a long, relatively narrow TOC, and a poor one on articles whose TOC is short, wide, or both? How about location? Should this template usually be used to float the TOC after the lead section, or at elast after the inital paragraph? And please note that the parallel template Template:TOCleft] is intended to work, and be used, in exactly the same way, except with the TOC on the left. When should this be sued? when there is an image on the upper right?

Both templates look better, i think, when they do not cross a section boundry, but that is often not possible.

Do people agree that there should be a MOS entry or section on thsi issue?

Coments on these style issues, please? DES 6 July 2005 17:26 (UTC)

Width definitions
First off, I agree that this discussion has gotten to the point where a MoS guideline has to be established. But before any debate starts ocurring, we should have at least a knowledge of what we agree on.

I agree with DES that there is a need to have these templates, and that they shouldn't be the default for Wiki's TOCs, and in my opinion, that they should be restricted to pages with images and lists (I'm flexible on this one).

If any changes are going to be made to the TOCs, I believe we all concur that they should be floated to maintain good aesthetics. So, a MoS requirement for the use of Template:TOCleft and Template:TOCright should be that they are implemented in a way that minimizes annoying whitespace. Are we all OK on that?

Now, let's start with the details... how about the templates not exceeding ~ 30% of the viewer's screen (not including the navigation sidebar) if they are used? If they exceed that, then the TOC is too wide and the default should be used. Comments are requested and encouraged. --Titoxd 7 July 2005 03:01 (UTC)

 * That sounds like a good plan. I have just added it to Space opera in Scientology doctrine. The TOC is long, but nessarily so. What do you think? - Ta bu shi da yu 7 July 2005 04:47 (UTC)

 * I think you understood perfectly my idea. --Titoxd 8 July 2005 03:34 (UTC)

I agree that non-default TOCs should normally be flaoted, and in any case I think this discussion is limited to floating TOCs. I wouldn't state absolutely that there is never a place for a non-standard, non-floating TOC, but I haven't seen one yet. I agree that the 30% width rule (I assume you meant that to apply to width, not height) is a good rule of thumb, but a user with a particularly large font size or low resolution or both may find that a TOC that occupies well under 30% for most viewers, takes up more in his or her particular case. The rule must say soemthing about an average or likely viewer, or somehow handle this case, I think. DES 7 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I meant 30% width as a ballpark figure, so it doesn't obstruct too much text. So, if no one objects, then that should be placed in the MoS (I'd rather have someone with more experience and higher position do it, because I'm a Wiki newbie). But does anyone have any idea what the average Wikipedia user's screen resolution is? I use 1024x768, and I think the bare minimum nowadays is 800x600... --Titoxd 8 July 2005 03:34 (UTC)

I think that Space opera in Scientology doctrine looks good with your addition, nd this is an example where an article without an image nonethelsess is improved by flaoting the TOC. DES 7 July 2005 21:07 (UTC)

As 30% varies according to user settings, perhaps a comparison to more stable examples would help. How about comparing to the Wikipedia left-side navigation column, the width of top-of-page tabs, or the end of the "Edit summary" input field? (SEWilco 06:35, 10 July 2005 (UTC))

 * 30% would translate to roughly 1 + 1/2 to 2 times the width of the left navigation bar, at least in my browser. I don't know if others with other resoultions have different results. -- Titoxd 07:14, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Draft proposal
Taking into account some of the issues that Mike brought from the discussion at the Section MoS, I'm submitting a draft proposal for an addition to that MoS. Please be free to put any comments, objections, or support below: Titoxd 22:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

'''This proposal was accepted (7 support/1 oppose). --Titoxd 20:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

The table of contents (TOC) can, in some instances, be floated either right or left using or. Before changing the default TOC to a floated TOC, consider the following guidelines:

 * If an article will be benefitted by reducing unused whitespace, float.
 * If an article will be adversely affected by the change, don't float.
 * When floating a TOC, check if the page layout will be harmed if the TOC is hidden by the user.
 * The TOC should not be longer than necessary, whether it is floated or not.
 * The default TOC is placed before the first headline, but after any introductory text (unless changed by the page's editors). If the introductory summary is long enough that a typical user has to scroll down to see the top of the TOC, you may float the TOC so it appears closer to the top of the article. However, the floating TOC should in most cases follow at least the first paragraph of article text.
 * If the TOC is relatively long and narrow, the default TOC will produce considerable white space beside the TOC. In such a case you may wish to float the TOC. However, you may want to consider whether the TOC can usefully be shortened by compining sections or sub-sections.
 * Floating a wide TOC will produce a narrow column of readable text for users with low resolutions. If the TOC's width exceeds 30% of the user's visible screen (about twice the size of the Wikipedia navigation bar to the left), then it is not suitable for floating. (Percentges assume a typical user setup.)
 * If the TOC is placed in the general vicinity of other floated images or boxes, it can be floated as long as the flowing text column does not become narrower than 30% of the average user's visible screen width.
 * If the TOC is going to be placed in a long list page, it should be floated.
 * A left-floated TOC may affect bulleted or numbered lists. Where it does, float the TOC to the right, or do not float it.

Support

 * 1) I can support this as written, but I hope we will continue to suggest improvements. DES 23:23, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Support: Give editors more control over TOC so it can be placed where it best fits, just as with images.  (SEWilco 16:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC))
 * 3) Support... but see how a Wikipedian with an authoritarian training and no visual sense enforces this "Guideline" by reverting formatting, at Wikiquette alerts. It is always unwise to make too many "Guidelines", because instinctively aggressive Users will apply them aggressively. --Wetman 23:29, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I have commented on that page. DES 02:36, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Strong Support The default layout is fine, and SHOULD be used, for most articles with a brief intro and limited size TOC.  Beyond this, some flexibility in layout is required to help with readability and accessibility of the article. --Cactus.man 10:33, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Support, and we can always go back and fix anything that needs fixing. --Titoxd 20:49, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Support This is a useful template and manual addition. -- Sitearm | Talk 17:55, 2005 August 5 (UTC)
 * 4) Support.—Encephalon | ζ | Σ 07:58:05, 2005-08-08 (UTC)

Oppose

 * Strong oppose to the first sentence (If an article will be benefitted by reducing unused whitespace, float). While the next ones try to bring some sence, the fisrt one is clear signal to put this abomination everywhere, disrupting reading flow to save few pixels. Pavel Vozenilek 02:04, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * If the flow of text is disrupted, that "adversely affects" the article, which is mentioned by the second point. --Titoxd 20:43, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * This is instruction creep. If we want to make editors aware of the possibility of floating the TOC, all that needs to be added to MoS is the simple statement: "In some cases it may be appropriate to float a table of contents (TOC) to the right or left using TOCright or TOCleft."  Detailed guidelines "for consideration" provide a basis for hardening into guidelines.  If such ruminations are useful (and I can see why they could be) then they can be held in a separate article: Floating tables of contents. —Theo  (Talk) 16:07, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Why should this be in a separate page that editors may not know to look for? The MoS is already full of such detailed suggestions and guideline, on things like date formats, units, titles of address in biographic articles, etc etc. The MoS, or one of its sub-pages, is the place to discuss this IMO. The point is not so much to advertise the option of a flaoting ToC, but to help suggest when it might be and when it is not appropriate, and how to do it so as to enhance nd not detract from articles. DES (talk) 17:16, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Closing date
This discussion is now a month old. Does anyone object to closing the vote a week from now (and posting the proposal in the MoS and archiving this discussion if it passes)? --Titoxd 22:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I moved above comment from the "Misc" section below, where I thought it might get lost.DES (talk) 22:53, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
 * In fact I have figured that enough support had been shown that I was planning to simply create the MoS entry sooner than that, but since a formal closing date has been suggested, I accept it. DES (talk) 22:53, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Comments

 * Proposed by Titoxd 22:31, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I did a copy edit, and altered the suggestion for a TOCleft that interacts with a numbered or bulleted list to float left OR not flaot. I also added the sugestion that a TOC normally follow at least the lead paragraph. if the lead paragraph is more tha a screen long it should be rewritten anyway. DES 22:44, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with the float-right suggestion. But sometimes, there is no plausible way to restrict the introduction to just one paragraph, so shouldn't the TOC (float or nonfloat) be placed at the end of the introductory section if that happens, instead of cutting it in half after the first paragraph? -- Titoxd 22:58, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * One of the test cases discussed in the TfD debate used TOCright to put the TOC after the first paragraph of the introduction, thus making the first paragraph full-width, but the rest of the lead section alongside the flaoting TOC. I felt that, in that case at least, this was better than a) a defualt TOC; b) a TOC flaoted after the lead section, or c) a TOC flaoted before any text at all. That is what i advise. I don't recall the articel involved off-hand, but I can probably find it if I dig through the archives. DES 23:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I realize I misread the edit... I'm going to change it so that doesn't happen to someone else. -- Titoxd 23:26, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * In general I don't think the TOC looks better at the end of the introductory section IF that means that a typical user must scroll down to see the TOC at all. This was part of the point in creating the floating TOC in the first place, see Intelligent design. DES 23:04, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... good point. A floated TOC should be floated after the first paragraph, and the scroll-down problem is what we're trying to solve here. --Titoxd 23:19, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Looks pretty good, but I have two issues. First, can someone point to an example in which undefined is actually useful or even just aesthetically pleasing? It seems to me that it would always be a bad idea and should simply be dropped entirely from the proposal. Second, just as a general comment, any statements based on assumptions about users' resolutions are bound to be contentious, in my experience. We all think we know what resolution "most" people use, but we don't. Perhaps we can find a better, more generic way of stating these constraints in order to avoid bickering later on. At my browsing size (800x900), they sound fine, though! — HorsePunchKid → 龜 23:50, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Personally, I can't think of an example in which would be useful, and I won't use it, but there was discussion above saying that it could be in some pages with images, so that's why I drafted the proposal with TOCleft included. As for the resolutions, those are the reasons we stated the constraints by also comparing them to the Wikipedia left panel. -- Titoxd 21:20, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * If there is an image at the upper right of the article, TOCleft might well be the better choice. DES 16:42, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Unless it is a very small image or very small TOC, don't float the TOC otherwise some users may end up with a thin column of text between the two. —Mike 17:11, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * Let me be clear, if the image is at the very top right, floating the TOC left after 1 or 2 paragraphs so it is entirely or largely below the image can work well, IMO. Take a look at Tony Blair for an example. DES (talk)

I think it might be worthwhile mentioning that the TOC should not be too long under any circumstances. Some articles have an overly long TOC and it should be cut down rather than simply floated. It might be good to have a more general discussion of the introductory layout, perhaps mentioning the use of an image to fill in some of the whitespace and advising people to check that the layout still works when the TOC is hidden. violet/riga (t) 00:01, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I see this as a non issue. Users can set the TOC of an article to float with some very simple css, my css includes a floating TOC, and has for a long time. Let each user determine how they want pages to display, forcing specific formating is not good. Gentgeen 02:33, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I suspect that a tiny fraction of Wikipedia users take advantage of the CSS customizability and that a yet tinier fraction are both aware of it and capable of using it effectively. It would be irresponsible to brush this off by making users fiddle with their CSS. Perhaps MediaWiki needs a user preference that makes this particular preference explicit. I can't imagine it would be hard to code, though I'm not exactly volunteering my time... ;) — HorsePunchKid → 龜 02:56, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * I suspect that a tiny fraction of Wikipedia users take advantage of the CSS customizability and that a yet tinier fraction are both aware of it and capable of using it effectively. It would be irresponsible to brush this off by making users fiddle with their CSS. Completely agree.—Encephalon | ζ | Σ 08:03:45, 2005-08-08 (UTC)

 * Hmm. A discussion of introductory layout seems a bit out of the scope of this (since we just want to deal with the TOC issue) but I do agree that the TOC shouldn't be unnecessarily long (although there are times it's inevitable) and that editors should check if the whole thing works if the TOC is hidden. So, I went back and added those points to the proposal. -- Titoxd 21:28, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Noticing the already widespread misuse of the template, I would like to see a rule where these templates are not used if the TOC is less than 10 items in length. I have yet to see it use in such cases improve the article design, and in most cases it is to the detriment of the page.  Joe D (t) 21:24, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * "Misuse" already, and July not out! Where the "Guidelines"on formatting ToC boxes are already being rigidly enforced as a "rule" by User:Steinsky aka "Joe D", the admission "I would like to see a rule..." bodes little good! The more general consensus seems to be that the ToC box belongs after the introductory material, which itself often has a leading image at upper left or upper right, as the image itself demands. For an unusual example where the ToC needs to go to the right, because of interference at left with an indented quote, see Gallaecia. Flexibility is the best "rule": let us all invoke flexibility as a "rule" to save us headaches from doctrinaire "formulists" invoking a catholic uniformity. Flexibility rules! --Wetman 23:43, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * They are being enforced because articles look better that way. You may disagree, but your support is limited.  This template only survived deletion with the support of those who feel it should be used in extreme circumstances only, not thrown around on any old article.  Continually making claims to which have responded is dishonest.  Joe D (t) 23:49, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * None of these discussions has yet attained to the status of "guideline" and even when a MoS entry is agreed on (as opposed to a mere discussion on this talk page) the MoS is explicitly not binding on editors, and it is certianly overstating things to call something "mis-use" simply because it goes against a MoS entry. DES 02:35, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Also I think that Joe D mischaracterizes the TfD debate. There was nothing like an agreement that the template should be used only in "extreme circumstances". Some objected to it at all, some thought wide use a good idea, the closest to consensus, IMO, was the idea that it should only be used where there was some reason to think it would improve the particular article, and should not be applied automatically to any and every article. And can we have nore about the merits of the formatting, and less about the merits or flaws of particular editors, please? DES 02:35, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I have set up a comparison of formats, wrapped and unwrapped ToC, at Talk:Central Park, where User:Steinsky has repeatedly vetoed flexible formatting, emp[loying a number of characteristic rationalizations. --Wetman 01:19, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

 * As can be seen above, this is becoming contentious for some users. Can we agree on at least a first version to go into the actual MoS, in hopse that may help calm such storms? This proposal has been under discussion quite a while now, with little change and no significnat opposition. DES 16:57, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * There already is a first version at Section, so you might as well just go for the final version now. —Mike 16:51, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Misc
I wish to alert others who have been involved in the discussions to who is currently unilatterally adding TOCright to articles on which it is quite clearly not justified, and where its use goes against the majority feeling of those in the VfD discussion and subsequent discussions. I unfortunately don't have time to deal with it myself, but have asked the user to stop. Joe D (t) 21:38, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Most editing is done "unilatterally" and this need be no different. In many cases, major edits hould be discussed before or after they are put into an artilce, and consensus generally followed. This issue is no different. No one editor is entitled to "own" articles or to dictate their format, including whether or not the TOC should be floated. DES 17:01, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I added a notice of this page to the Village Pump, since it seems that this discussion is being neglected by all but a few users. --Titoxd 02:58, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

I came here from Titoxd's link on Village Pump and I am lost as to what you want to vote on. Is "left toc" the current article default and you want to make it "right toc" instead?? -- Sitearm | Talk 17:03, 2005 August 5 (UTC)

The default is thst the TOC appears after the lead section, and before all other sections, left aligned, with whitespace to the right of it. By using TOCleft or TOCright is is possible to have a "floating" ToC, where the article text wraps arround a left-aligned or right-aligned TOC. We are hoping to develoip consensus for an MoS entry on when and how to use, and when not to use, these templates. DES (talk) 17:16, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

This discussion is now a month old. Does anyone object to closing the vote a week from now (and posting the proposal in the MoS and archiving this discussion if it passes)? --Titoxd 22:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)


text:
Chak Jhumra

Chak Jhumra (Punjabi: چک جُھمرہ), is a town, railway junction, and Tehsil in Punjab, Pakistan. The town is situated around 21 km northeast of Faisalabad on Faisalabad-Sangla Hill Road. The Khanewal–Wazirabad Branch and Sangla Hill–Kundian Branch intersect in the town and connect it to Faisalabad and Sargodha respectively.

Prior to the establishment of Pakistan, the town was known as a hub of the cotton trade. At the time, three cotton ginning factories operated within the town. Following the Partition of India, much of the town's Hindu population, of which many were traders, immigrated to India, briefly causing decline in business.

Beginning in the 1960s, the town began to again experience economic growth and development of infrastructure. At this time a number of schools, hospitals, and textile factories were constructed within the town.

Today, textile manufacturing is the dominant industry within Chak Jhumra.

Education
The following educational institutes are established within Chak Jhumra:

Colleges

 * Punjab collage
 * Govt. Higher secondary school & College (1975)
 * Sandal College
 * Al Falah College
 * Govt. Degree College, Chak Jhumra
 * Govt. Degree College for Woman
 * Bloomstar School System
 * Wisdom Public School and College

Schools

 * Misali Ravain high school
 * Eden Hall Grammar High & Montessori School System (R) Madni Park Jhumra City.
 * Eden Hall Grammar High & Montessori School System
 * Govt. High School Railway Road Chak jhumra Near Nadra office and Post Office Chak Jhumra, Formerly Govt. Elementary Chak Jhumra.
 * Dar-e-Arqam School
 * Bloomstar school system
 * Allied School Jhumra
 * Al-falah School System
 * Global Group of Schools
 * City School Chak Jhumra
 * Timberlandians Student Club,
 * The Nation school system
 * The Aims School

Actie NGOs

 * Alfalah Welfare Organization https://www.alfalahw.org/

Transportation

 * Chak jhumra railway station
 * Chak jhumra lari adda
 * Chak jhumra vain bus stand
 * Chak jhumra khurdianwala road rikshaw chowk
 * Chak jhumra chinot road bus chowk

Road Network
5 road connected
 * Khurdianwala road
 * Chinot road
 * Sangla road
 * Faisalabad road
 * Dhillum road

Hospital

 * tahira Ahmad khichi hospital
 * thq hospital
 * khurshid medical complex
 * shazia walha hospital

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Chak Jhumra


text:
Mariental, Namibia

Mariental is a town of 10,000 inhabitants in south-central Namibia, lying on the B1 national road 232 km north of Keetmanshoop and 274 km southeast of Windhoek. It lies at an elevation of 1090 m. Mariental is connected to the TransNamib railway line from Windhoek to Keetmanshoop. The town and the surrounding area are situated in a hot, arid region.

Mariental is the administrative capital of the Hardap Region in an area which has long been a centre for the Nama people. It lies near the Hardap Dam, the second largest reservoir in Namibia.

History
Named by local Rhenish (German Lutheran) missionaries, the town was founded in 1912 as a railway stop between Windhoek and Keetmanshoop and named after Maria, the wife of the first colonial settler of the area, Hermann Brandt. It is home to the oldest Dutch Reformed church congregation in Namibia, founded in 1898. It was proclaimed a town in 1920 and a municipality in 1946. Mariental is home to a large number of Nama-speaking people, descendants of the early Khoi inhabitants of Namibia. The people of Mariental are known for their big smiles and hospitality.

Hardap dam
The Hardap Dam, situated 22 km northwest of Mariental, is the second largest dam in Namibia. It supplies the city with water and controls the flow of the Fish River which flows in a southerly direction past the town. Hardap Dam has a capacity of 320 e6m3 and a surface area of 25 km2. Construction began in 1960 and was completed in 1963.

Before the dam was built, Mariental was flooded in 1923 and 1934. However, whenever dam sluices have to be opened fully due to good rains in the Fish River's catchment area, Mariental is still prone to floods, with reed grasses growing in the riverbed of the Fish River slowing down the flow of water and aggravating the danger.

Floods after the commissioning of the dam occurred in 1972, 1974, 1976, 2000, and 2006. Since then, the dam's water level is kept at a maximum of 70% of its capacity to prevent both an overflow and an uncontrolled outflow through fully opened sluices.

Climate
Mariental has a hot desert climate (Köppen climate classification BWh), with extremely hot summers and very warm winters (with warm days and cold nights). The average annual precipitation is 194 mm. On 11 November 2021, a maximum temperature of 44.0 C was registered.

Economy
The nearby Hardap Dam is the second largest reservoir in Namibia and provides water for irrigation, making it possible to cultivate animal fodder, as well as corn, fruits and vegetables. The town is surrounded by flourishing commercial farms which, due to the low annual rainfall in the area focus on game farming as well as sheep and ostrich farming - which along with cattle farming remain popular in the region. Export grapes, cotton lucern and dairy farming is also sustained by irrigation from the Hardap Dam.

A local ostrich abattoir used to cater for this increasingly important industry, but recently went bankrupt. What survives of the karakul trade in the south is also centered around Mariental. Sitting astride the main route into the Kalahari and Namib Deserts, Mariental services the needs of farmers in these areas. Mariental boasts some of the best safari and hunting experiences in Namibia at lodges like Lapa Lange and Anib Lodge. Available game include springbuck, blesbuck, giraffe, ostrich, leopard, zebra, kudu, gemsbuck, hartebeest, eland, blue- and black wildebeest.

The German association “Fahrräder für Afrika e.V.” (Bicycles for Africa) has built a “Bicycle Empowerment Centre” in the town together with the Catholic Aids Action (CAA) and the Bicycling Empowerment Network (BEN) Namibia. Local people infected with the HI-virus were trained to repair and build bikes and also received training on how to run the workshop on their own. Second-hand Bicycles are being sold at low prices to the inhabitants of the region, allowing easy travel and transportation, while the income from the workshops is used to finance local aid projects. The project is supported by governmental agencies in Germany and Namibia.

Politics
Mariental is governed by a municipal council that has seven seats.

The 2015 local authority election was won by the SWAPO party which gained six seats (1,325 votes). The remaining seat went to the Democratic Turnhalle Alliance (DTA, 139 votes). The 2020 local authority election was won by the newly formed Landless People's Movement (LPM) which scored well all over Hardap. LPM gained 1,726 votes and four seats in the city council, followed by SWAPO with two seats (906 votes). The likewise new Independent Patriots for Change (IPC) obtained the remaining seat with 180 votes.

title: Mariental, Namibia


text:
Talk:Andrei Mureșanu

Cause of death
"He died due to bad health ...." seems awfully vague. — Nowhither 11:44, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Andrei Mureșanu


text:
B. N. Srikrishna

Bellur Narayanaswamy Srikrishna (born 21 May 1941) is an Indian jurist and a retired judge of the Supreme Court of India. From 1993 to 1998, he headed the "Srikrishna Commission" that investigated causes and apportioned blame for the Bombay riots of 1992–93. In 2010, he headed the "Srikrishna Committee" that was constituted to look into the demand for separate statehood for Telangana. He is the chairman of the Financial Sector Legislative Reforms Commission (FSLRC) and also works as an independent arbitrator.

Early life
Srikrishna was born in Bangalore, to B. Narayanaswamy and Sharadamma. Narayanaswamy was a lawyer in Bombay High Court. Srikrishna was brought up in Bombay (now Mumbai) and graduated with a bachelor's degree in Science from the Elphinstone College of the University of Bombay, received a Bachelor of Laws from the Government Law College, Mumbai, a Master of Laws from the University of Bombay, and stood second in the university. He holds a Master of Arts degree in Sanskrit from the University of Mysore, a diploma in Urdu and a postgraduate diploma in Indian Aesthetics from the University of Bombay. He knows ten languages including his mother tongue Kannada.

Career
In 1967, Srikrishna entered private practice in the Bombay High Court, specialising in labour and industrial law. He was counsel for a number of large corporations. Besides appearing in the High Court, he also argued cases in the Supreme Court of India and was designated as a Senior Advocate in 1987.

Srikrishna was appointed as an additional judge of the Bombay High Court in 1990 and as a permanent judge in 1991. In 1993, he assumed charge of the Commission of Inquiry into the riots that took place in Bombay in 1992–93. The "Srikrishna Commission", as it became known, submitted its report in 1998, and generated widespread interest in India and abroad. In September 2001, Srikrishna was appointed as the Chief Justice of the Kerala High Court and on 3 October 2002, was appointed as a judge of the Supreme Court of India. On 21 May 2006, as per rules, on reaching the age of superannuation of sixty-five years, he retired from the Supreme Court.

He is leading the effort to draft new data privacy-laws for India that will regulate how tech giants from US and elsewhere will operate in the country. Srikrishna plans to navigate a "middle path" between the laissez-faire US approach and the stringent GDPR just imposed in Europe.

Mumbai Riots 1992 case
The Bombay Riots usually refers to the riots in Mumbai, in December 1992 and January 1993, in which around 900 people died. The riots were mainly due to escalations of hostilities after large scale protests (which were initially peaceful, but eventually turned violent) by Muslims in reaction to the 1992 Babri Masjid Demolition By Hindu Karsevaks in Ayodhya. Srikrishna, then a relatively junior judge of the Bombay High Court, accepted the uphill task of investigating the causes of the riots, something that many of his colleagues had turned down. For five years, until 1998, he examined victims, witnesses, and alleged perpetrators. Detractors came initially from left-secular quarters who were wary of a judge who was a devout and practising Hindu. The commission was disbanded by the Shiv Sena-led government in January 1996 and on public opposition was later reconssions of Inquiry Act. As an Inquiry is not a court of law (even if it conducts proceedings like one) and the report of an inquiry is not binding on governments, Srikrishna's recommendations cannot be directly enforced. To this date, the recommendations of the Commission have neither been accepted nor acted upon by the Government of Maharashtra.

The Sixth Central Pay commission
The Sixth central pay commission was set up by Union Cabinet of India on 5 October 2006.Justice Srikrishna to head 6th pay panel– Rediff.com Business The commission, was headed by Srikrishna.

Report on Madras High Court Riots
Srikrishna headed a one-man commission to inquire about the 19 February 2009 Madras High Court incidents. He submitted an interim report on 4 March 2009 with his findings to the Supreme Court of India.

He is interested in refugee law and human rights issues, and besides being a member of the International Association of Refugee Law Judges, has presented papers on the subject. He was invited by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to Geneva for a seminar on New Forms of Persecution in 2000, and on the Justiciability of Economic, Social and Cultural rights to New Delhi in 2001.

His study of Indian Philosophy & Jurisprudence, has also published a number of articles on the subject, including an article on "Conflict and Harmony: The Genesis of Legal and Social Systems", which is published in the journal, History of Science and Philosophy of Science. He is on the editorial board of the Journal of the Indian Law Institute.

He is a Life Member of the National Institute of Personnel Management, is also associated with the Western Region Committee of the Employers Federation of India, the Industrial Relations Research Association (USA), and the International Bar Association (UK).

Committee for separate Telangana
A five-member committee was constituted, with Srikrishna as the chairman, on 3 February 2010. The committee submitted its report 30 December 2010. Other members of the committee were:
 * Vinod Duggal – former Union Home Secretary
 * Ravindar Kaur – professor at IIT Delhi
 * Abusaleh Sharif – is a senior research fellow at the New Delhi Office of International Food Policy Research Institute
 * Ranbir Singh - Vice-Chancellor, National Law University

Committee to study issues related to data protection
In August 2017, the Union Ministry of Electronics & Information Technology (MEITY) constituted an Expert Committee to study and identify key data protection issues and recommend methods to address them. The ten-member committee was headed by Supreme Court Judge (retired) Justice B N Srikrishna and included members from government, academia, and industries. The committee also had the mandate to propose a draft bill for data protection.

The Committee released its Report and proposed Personal Data Protection Bill 2018 (India) in July, 2018. The Draft was open for comments from the public until October 10, 2018.

Personal life
Srikrishna is a connoisseur of art, culture, drama, and classical music, in general, and Carnatic music in particular. He tries to find time to pursue what he says is his "real passion" — Indian classical music and culture. He is married to Purnima and has two daughters.Sushma and Sowmya.

Cultural activities
Mumbai has several cultural centers, and Srikrishna takes part during his free time. Srikrishna was the invited speaker, at the 2017 Golden Jubilee lecture at The Mysore association, Mumbai.

Works

 * Book on riot survivors released by Srikrishna in Mumbai, 2012,
 * A Heritage of Judging: The Bombay High Court through One Hundred and Fifty Years. (Co-author)
 * Skinning a Cat
 * Indian judges.
 * Foreword of Gujarat Files, self-published by Rana Ayyub.

title: B. N. Srikrishna


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/10th floor test

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Rossami (talk) 21:43, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

10th floor test
Delete. Zero relevant google hits (highly unlikely for a true IT-related term). Ergo, neologism. -- BD2412 talk 11:46, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete -- Ryan Norton T 11:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't Delete It is exactly because of the zero relevant google hits that I am creating this page. I first heard it during a talk at the UKUUG Linux Technical Conference in Swansea by Thomas Lange. I contacted Thomas to ask wether it was his idea. Here's his feedback > Hi Thomas, > I've been googling etc but can't find anythin. > Who actually coined the term "the 10th floor test" ?  I know it from Steve Traugott, www.infrastructures.org how did some talks on this topic. The fact that it isn't a Higly common IT-related term YET should not be a reason for deletion. --Kris.Buytaert Kris.Buytaert 2005-08-25 11:57:20 UTC (according to edit history. Uncle G 17:52:57, 2005-08-25 (UTC))
 * Kris, Wikipedia is not a primary source. We only report known and documented information and everything needs to be referenced or at least be possible to verify someohow. Since this term is not yet in common usage, there's no reliable third party resources on the subject. - 131.211.210.10 13:27, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * This is an almost exact analogue of the Stephen Hawking example in verifiability. Readers cannot verify something that is only mentioned in an unpublished electronic mail message whose very existence itself they only have a complete stranger's word for. If the conference has no record of proceedings that records the explanation of this concept, then it is unverifiable and does not belong here. Uncle G 17:52:57, 2005-08-25 (UTC)
 * Delete The whole point of notability is that it excludes things that haven't happened yet. If someone created a 'computing infrastructure' article or even a Steve Traugott article, this might be merged.  NN on its own though.  Dlyons493 12:04, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Neologism. --GraemeL (talk) 12:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, any IT-related term that fails to return Google results is by definition not notable. - 131.211.210.10 13:27, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * ( Forgot to log in. - Mgm|(talk) 13:28, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete neologism Tonywalton | Talk 13:37, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per above. Dottore So 17:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per Mgm. Andy Janata 00:03, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete per above. Anyone could as well introduce 11th floor test, 12th floor test,... Misza13 19:15:33, 2005-09-01 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text: User:Big Bank

title: User:Big Bank


text:
Talk:16th Punjab Regiment

Untitled
I dont think that it should be merged with punjab regiment(pakistan). punjab regiment pakistan present day consists of a lot of other regiments and 16th punjab is a part of it. historically also 16 punjab was a separate regiment part of the punjab regiment and was given to pakistan, later it was divided into several regiments thus creating the expansion of punjab regiment.
 * Cool... good enough for me! Removing merge tag. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:15, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:16th Punjab Regiment


text:
User talk:Ogrienfield

Welcome
Hello , and welcome to Wikipedia. I hope you like the place and decide to stay.

Your recent article Big Bad Brucie has been marked for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy. You may wish to comment at Votes for deletion/Big Bad Brucie, particularly if you give any references or source documents. Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, there are many types of articles that are simply viewed as not appropriate for Wikipedia. Before spending more time on articles, you may want to review What Wikipedia is not.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with learning to edit by writing articles on you or your friends, but you should do it in the Wikipedia sandbox or on your own user page.

Here are a few more good links for newcomers:
 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Editing tutorial
 * Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! -- Alf 11:47, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:W650.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:W650.jpg. I notice the image page currently doesn't specify who created the image, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created the image yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the image on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the image yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the image also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture then you can use GFDL to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the image qualifies as fair use, please read fair use, and then use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other images, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of image pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Admrb♉ltz (T | C) 22:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Bbbsniper.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:Bbbsniper.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the media on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then you can use GFDL to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, please read fair use, and then use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. -- Longhair 13:12, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ogrienfield


text:
Rodney Berman

Rodney Simon Berman OBE is a Liberal Democrat politician, currently a councillor for the Penylan ward of Cardiff. He was formerly a councillor for Plasnewydd ward, and was also leader of Cardiff Council between 2004 and 2012.

Early life
Born and raised in Glasgow, Berman studied at the University of Glasgow where he helped run Glasgow University Liberal Democrats, before moving to Wales to study towards a PhD.

Political career
Berman stood for election to Parliament as Welsh Liberal Democrat candidate for Rhondda and Cardiff South and Penarth in 1997 and 2001, respectively, coming third on each occasion. His agent for the Rhondda seat was Professor Russell Deacon.

In 2004 Berman became leader of a minority administration on Cardiff Council. In 2006, Berman was the first winner of the Local Politician of the Year award.

The local elections of 2008 saw the Liberal Democrats increase their representation, winning new seats in the east (Trowbridge), west (Llandaff) and south of the city (Butetown). They were still in a minority on the council so they made a deal to run the Cardiff Council jointly with Plaid Cymru, under Berman's leadership.

In the 2012 council elections, the Liberal Democrats lost control of Cardiff Council to Welsh Labour, and Berman also lost his seat after two recounts.

Berman was appointed Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE) in the 2013 New Year Honours for services to local government and the community in Cardiff.

After spending several years working as a policy executive for BMA Cymru Wales, he returned to local politics to fight the 2017 Cardiff Council election. He returned as a councillor in May 2017 for the Penylan Ward.

At the 2021 Senedd election, he was the Lib Dem candidate for Cardiff Central, coming second to Jenny Rathbone. He also stood on the list vote for the South Wales Central region. He stood for election in the Cardiff East constituency for the 2024 UK general election, coming second with 17.2% of the vote.

Personal life
In August 2006, Berman entered into a Civil Partnership with his partner, former ITV News journalist Nick Speed.

title: Rodney Berman


text: Category:Geography of the Maldives

title: Category:Geography of the Maldives


text:
Category talk:Accuracy disputes

Alphabetization is not correct
The alphabetization of articles on this page is incorrect. The algorithm seems to be taking the first letter on the page, as opposed to the page name. --Silverback 11:51, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * No, the first letter does not appear to be the criterion. Can someone explain why Christian reconstructionism is alphabetized under "D", while Chistmas in july is alphabetized under "C"?--Silverback 12:02, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, I couldn't find your specific example still in the list, but I can imagine a quite simple explanation for the observed behaviour: On inserting a category-link into any topic, it's possible - similar to piped links - to provide a different identifier for the sorting of that topic within the category; refer there for more information on that. -- mIstA 03:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Penis pic at bottom
is that supposed to be there?

Appropriate namespace
There are a number of Wikipedia: and User: pages in this category as well as Talk: I wonder if this Category should be restricted to the article namespace. Perhaps talk could be included I am not sure, but I think the other namespaces are inappropriate here. Has this ever been brought up before?-- Birgitte§β ʈ Talk  18:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

title: Category talk:Accuracy disputes


text:
User talk:Manishnakar

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, please be sure to sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~) to produce your name and the current date, or three tildes (~~~) for just your name. If you have any questions, you can post to the help desk or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! -- Francs2000 | Talk 11:52, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
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User:Manishnakar
I've added the "" template to your user page (User:Manishnakar), suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. I've explained why in the deletion notice (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy).

Please note that the purpose of a user page is not as personal homepage or used as a general webhosting service, but as way for active editors of Wikipedia to introduce themselves to other editors. If you disagree with the notice, discuss the issues here or on my user talk page. You may remove the deletion notice, and the page will not be deleted for the moment, but note that it may still be sent to Miscellany for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached, or if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria. Calton | Talk 05:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:Manishnakar


text:
Drniš

Drniš (Dernis) is a town in the Šibenik-Knin County, Croatia. Located in the Dalmatian Hinterland, it is about halfway between Šibenik and Knin.

History
The name Drniš was mentioned for the first time in a contract dated March 8, 1494. However, there are traces of older Middle Ages' fortress built by Croatian aristocrat family Nelipić at the site called Gradina dominating the landscape. The town was conquered by the Ottoman Turks in 1522 due to its strategic location. Many buildings from this time period are still preserved today. During the Baroque period, the mosque built by the Turks was transformed into a church. During Ottoman rule, it was nahiya seat of Petrovo Polje; which initially bounded to Croatian vilayet of Sanjak of Bosnia between 1522 and 1537, laterly to Sanjak of Kilis between 1537 and 1664 and again between 1670 and 1683. Venetian Republic briefly conquered Drniš in 1664 during Cretan War. Ottomans recaptured in 1670. Finally it fell into Venetian hands in 1683 during Great Turkish War. Then, Drniš shared fate of Venetian Dalmatia till 1918. In 1918 the town was occupied by Italian troops who remained there until a withdrawal in 1921, as a result of the Treaty of Rapallo. The town subsequently became a part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

On September 16, 1991, during the Croatian War of Independence, Drniš was attacked by forces of the 9th Corpus of Yugoslav People's Army and militia of SAO Krajina led by general Ratko Mladić. The Croatian population fled under mortar fire, and town was incorporated in Republic of Serbian Krajina. The town and surrounding Croatian villages suffered extensive demolition and looting in that period. In August 1995, Drniš was restored to Croatian government control during the military action Operation Storm, and the Serbian population fled to Serbia or Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Heritage
The village of Otavice near Drniš is the place where the noted sculptor Ivan Meštrović spent his childhood. A museum has been built which has an exhibition of the archeological rests from the neolithic and Roman eras, along with Croatian history. The composer Krsto Odak (1888–1965) was born in Siverić near Drniš. The town has a memorial to Julijan Ramljak. The area is also known for its agricultural orientation and a once notable mining center.

Municipal settlements
In the 2021 census, the population was distributed in the following settlements:

 * Badanj, population 233
 * Biočić, population 78
 * Bogatić, population 71
 * Brištani, population 149
 * Drinovci, population 124
 * Drniš, population 2,752
 * Kadina Glavica, population 150
 * Kanjane, population 0
 * Kaočine, population 201
 * Karalić, population 119
 * Ključ, population 107
 * Kričke, population 185
 * Lišnjak, population 4
 * Miočić, population 44
 * Nos Kalik, population 2
 * Pakovo Selo, population 186
 * Parčić, population 126
 * Pokrovnik, population 190
 * Radonić, population 327
 * Sedramić, population 168
 * Siverić, population 426
 * Širitovci, population 127
 * Štikovo, population 31
 * Tepljuh, population 103
 * Trbounje, population 181
 * Velušić, population 78
 * Žitnić, population 114

Notable natives or residents

 * Božidar Adžija, politician
 * Dražen Budiša, politician
 * Mihovil Nakić, basketball player
 * Ecija Ojdanić, actress
 * Milka Planinc, politician; Prime Minister of Yugoslavia (1982–86)
 * Stojko Vranković, basketball player
 * Ivan Meštrović, sculptor
 * Nikanor Ivanović, Bishop of Cetinje and Metropolitan of Montenegro and the Highlands
 * Đurađ Jakšić, Serbian historian and politician

title: Drniš


text:
User:Idomain

Hello!

I am a Wikipedia user.

title: User:Idomain


text:
Cahorsins

The Cahorsins were merchants and financiers from the French city of Cahors and the surrounding region of Quercy during the High Middle Ages. During their 13th-century heyday, they were among the most prominent communities of Christian long-distance traders outside of Italy, and were particularly prominent in commerce between England and its continental lands of the Duchy of Aquitaine. They declined rapidly from around 1300 CE, but their name long remained synonymous with usury in much of Western Europe.

Name
The names of Cahors and the Quercy both derive from the Cadurci people who inhabited the region during the Iron Age and Roman period.

In medieval parlance, Cahorsins, alternatively spelled Caorcins, Caorsins, Caoursins or Cahursins, included merchants from Cahors but also Cajarc, Capdenac, Cardaillac, Castelnau-Montratier, Figeac, Gourdon, Rocamadour, and Souillac They were referred to as Caorsini in Italian, Cahorsijnen in Dutch, and Kawertschen in German. In English, Caursines was occasionally used in the past but not in recent historical literature.

In the modern period, possibly because of the negative connotations associated with the Cahorsins' lending practices, people from Cahors have been instead referred to as Cadurciens.

Overview

Cahors lies on the land road between Montpellier on the Mediterranean Sea and La Rochelle on the Atlantic Ocean, and the emergence of the Cahorsins as a significant trading community has been related to the emergence of these two new port cities in the 11th and early 12th centuries. Despite major lapses in documentation, evidence for the long-distance merchant activity of Cahorsins goes back to the late 12th century, with their attested presence in Marseille and Saint-Gilles in 1178 and in La Rochelle in 1194. Via the Lot and Garonne rivers, Cahorsins exported their local wine to England and imported wool from there, while they transported more valuable goods and spices imported from the Levant to La Rochelle via land roads. Their presence at the Champagne fairs is documented from 1216, and in Flanders from 1230. In 1240, Henry III exiled from England some Cahorsins, mainly of Sens, for usury with extortion.

By the middle of the 13th century, Cahors played a larger role in long-distance trade than most other cities of southwestern France, including Toulouse. In the third quarter of the 13th century, the Cahorsins were major financial system participants in London and England, on a par with Italian merchants from Florence, Lucca and Siena, and some of them took over the former properties of English Jews following the Edict of Expulsion in 1290.

The causes of the Cahorsins' decline in the late 13th and early 14th centuries have not been identified with certainty. They may have been related with the 1294–1303 Gascon War which put an end to their prior balancing act as subjects of the King of France in and around Cahors, but active in English lands in Aquitaine and Great Britain. That period also saw the decline of the Champagne fairs and increased competition from Italian merchants.

The legacy of Cahorsin opulence has been related to the rise of Jacques Duèse from Cahors up to his election in 1316 as Pope John XXII. Duèse's father had probably been a merchant and moneychanger.

Reputation and historiography

The Cahorsins' name was often used to refer to Christian (i.e. non-Jewish) usurers, together with that of Lombards, both during the 13th century and in the later period following their decline. Their usury activity was prohibited by rulers such as Henry III, Duke of Brabant in 1261 and successive kings of France, Louis IX in 1269 and Philip III in 1274.

Dante Alighieri referred to Cahors and Cahorsins twice in the Divine Comedy, in part out of his aversion for contemporary Pope John XXII. In Canto XI of Inferno, he paired Cahors with Sodom (Soddoma e Caorsa) as sinful places, respectively associated with sodomy and usury; and in Canto XXVII of Paradiso, he portrayed Saint Peter referring to Cahorsins and Gascons (Caorsini e Guaschi) in an allusion to the rapacity of John XXII and of his predecessor Clement V, who was from Villandraut in Gascony. Giovanni Boccaccio later echoed Dante's disparaging references to Cahorsins in commentary of his own.

References to usurers as Cahorsins were widespread in late medieval Germany, where their name was spelled Kawertschen. As late as the mid-17th century, they were still lambasted as "worse than Jews" by a legal scholar in Bordeaux, echoing similarly stereotypical language formulated in the mid-1230s by Matthew Paris.

A stream of early French historiography, initiated in the 17th century by Du Cange and partly perpetuated in the 19th century by Maurice Prou among others, has portrayed the medieval Cahorsins as Italian merchants from Tuscany and/or Piedmont. This was, however, disproved in studies by Edmond Albe and Philippe Wolff in the second quarter of the 20th century. Yves Renouard contributed further research on the Cahorsins in the early 1960s.

Notable Cahorsins

 * Bernard de Montcuq was chamberlain of the Count of Champagne in the early 13th century and three times elected mayor of Troyes.
 * Raymond and Elie de Salvagnac, from Cahors and established in Montpellier, lent money to Simon de Montfort for the Albigensian Crusade around 1210 and, in lieu of reimbursement, were granted the lordships of Pézenas and Tourves as well as the spoils from the storming of Lavaur in 1211, as related by chronicler William of Tudela; by the late 13th century, Raymond's sons were established as prominent clerics in Paris.
 * The Conques family, initially based in Figeac, became prominent in the Mediterranean ports and the Levant in the early 13th century; Raymond de Conques was consul of Montpellier in Acre in 1236, Bernard de Conques was a wealthy citizen of Marseille, and Hugues de Conques was a prominent follower of Charles I of Anjou who ennobled him and granted him lands in Southern Italy.
 * Savary de Cahors became mayor of La Rochelle in 1251.
 * The brothers Pierre and Guilhem Béraud held the largest wool export license granted by the Kings of England in the early 1270s, and acted as tax farmers and lenders to the English monarchy. Their relative Arnaud Béraud endowed the Dominican convent in Cahors, across the Lot river from the old city.
 * Guiral Trapas, from Castelnau-Montratier, in 1283 wrote a will that illustrates the reach of Cahorsin networks, naming beneficiaries in London, Gloucester, Southampton, Canterbury, Salisbury, Stamford in England and Burgos, Palencia, Toledo and Santander in Castile.
 * Jacques de Jean, from Cahors and established in Bordeaux, was a significant lender to Edward I of England in the late 13th century. In 1316, Gauscelin de Jean became cardinal under pope John XXII.
 * Guilhem Servat worked for Edward I of England and became burgher of London in 1286, alderman of Walbrook in 1309, member of Parliament in 1313, and one of London's richest and most powerful individuals until his death in 1320; in 1290, he traveled to Norway to negotiate the financial arrangements for the marriage of Margaret, Maid of Norway with Prince Edward of Caernarfon, the future Edward II.
 * Bernard de Favas, from Gourdon, established himself in Marseille in 1302 and developed a trading network that extended into the Levant.
 * Guy de Cahors led the minting of gold coinage for Philip V of France around 1320.
 * Guillaume Bonnes Mains, from Figeac, financed and led an embassy to Al-Nasir Muhammad in Alexandria in 1327-1328, to help Eastern Christians on behalf of Charles IV of France.

title: Cahorsins


text:
Talk:Blutengel

This article is originally a translation from the german wikipedia.
 * Spitze! I translated Blutengel too. Blut and Engel are obvious cognates to anyone who's taken German, but for those that haven't it might not be so 'klar'. Khirad 00:31, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Compilations
I'll add tracks appearing on compilations as well, to make the discography complete --Shandris 08:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Related Projects
I think we can link together all Chris Pohl related projects (Terminal Choice, Tumor, etc). I can fill in all the missing ones - and also do (ex-)member projects.

Jonnyeol 11:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

"Cinderella Man" is listed as one of the Collaborators' Side Projects, but unless someone can support that, I'm pretty sure they meant Cinderella Effect, a side project by Constance Rudert. I'll edit it to reflect this. Plibit4 15:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Genre
"Pop And Eurodance", what on earth??! >.< Blutengel is Darkwave! electronic music with a gothic "style"is called Darkwave and NOT eurodance! Kitten!meow 20:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC) Kiite!meow

 * Blutengel produce simply Techno music. There is no Dark Wave sound. --Diluvien 17:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I second the fact that they are definently NOT Eurodance or Futurepop for that matter. Though I might also add that Darkwave is a general term for a few different subgenre styles that goes beyond just electronic music (ie Black Tape) JanderVK

 * Dark Wave is guitar and electronic music, not a substyle of electronic music. The genre is connected to the 1980s, such as New Wave. It was an 1980s movement, including groups such as The Cure, Depeche Mode or Siouxsie & The Banshees. Blutengel isn't Dark Wave. Blutengel is modern and eurodance-inspired music.

 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPVUnRF-dwU
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asfex0mTSwQ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * Please provide references to them being "Eurodance". Something substantial, not youtube, and your personal biased opinion doesn't count (I'm guessing you're also not a fan). Although they are electronic dance music, they surely are not "techno" or "eurodance".JanderVK (talk) 22:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree. They're electronic dance music, but definitely not dark wave. --Ada Kataki (talk) 22:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Clearly there is a difference of opinion here. Darkwave doesn't have just one sound; it's more of an evolving, umbrella term for electronic goth music. Blutengel is not Eurodance. Darkwave works (a modern variety), as would something like Gothic EBM. Futurepop might work for Cruxshadows, but Blutengel is much darker than most futurepop bands. As for the techno comment, techno music is nothing like this. As for a comment below, "dark electro pop" actually may suffice as well, as this band is a little further from traditional darkwave. It misses the variety of Blutengel's sound, but as a general label it's not entirely bad. The infobox, however, listing both darkwave and futurepop, seems to get it about right. MXVN (talk) 05:53, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Another note. On the Darkwave page, it explains how the term's meaning has shifted and even includes Diary of Dreams (a perfect example) in their list of newer darkwave bands, so maybe it really is an apt label, even if it should be preceded with a "modern" or an "electronic" to differentiate it from the older iterations of the sound. True, Blutengel sort of bridges the space between Diary of Dreams and some of the more overtly dance pop beats of other styles, but the dark, gothic vibes are a fundamental part of their sound. Perhaps just one term just isn't going to explain them perfectly. "Darkwave/Futurepop" or "Electro Darkwave" might do a little better, but using two terms like that seems a little clunky. LastFM shows Blutengel labeled as "gothic/futurepop/darkwave/EBM" on their site, which seems pretty good, but is very long. They're also tagged as things like "electro-goth." MXVN (talk) 07:21, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

 * I would consider Blutengel somewhere in the dark electro category. The below website has them listed as Dark Electro Pop.

http://www.gothic.gr/news/545/BLUTENGEL+%22Winter+Of+My+Life%22/

Is this enough to warrant a change of anykind?? (216.109.255.7 (talk) 12:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC))

 * Last FM is not a source. It's a piece of shit.
 * It's kind of both, much like Wikipedia or Allmusic. But don't get me started on Allmusic. ;) MXVN (talk) 18:58, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

we call it 'gay tekkno'. it's just wannabe-goth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.20.203 (talk) 22:35, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Albums and EPs
With this band's extensive output, it might seem beneficial to break the discography apart, except the distinction between albums and EPs is not always clear with this band. "The Oxidising Angel," for instance, plays every bit like the album "Demon Kiss" was, but with a few alternate versions of other tracks filling up the end of the disc. This band does this sort of thing a lot, and the purpose of the timeline in a case like this is to show the relevant brand-new studio material in chronological order. When a band's EPs are just as relevant as the a full albums, it is important to show the chronology as a whole. The only way to do that was to combine the sections together. I did, however, leave the "EP" tags at the end of the albums which have these alternate tracks and were labeled as EPs before. This way, the reader can get all the information at once, without the confusion of having to look at separate sections, or the impression that the "EPs" are so considerably less important. Also, the album "Redempton," which has its own track listing (so is not a compilation or anything) and was released as a companion album to Schwarzes Eis, was missing, so I added it to the list. They also released an instrumental album at that same time (Behind the Mirror), so I've also added that one along with a tag to denote that it is an instrumental album and therefore different from the others.
 * Bonus discs such as 'Redemption' and 'Behind the Mirror' do NOT get included in the discography section. If you want to add the bonus discs somewhere, create a page for Schwarzes Eis and add them on there. Information about the bonus discs for the other releases and the re-release of Seelenschmerz are on the respective pages. Please do not clutter up the discography section. And reather than constantly edit and re-edit because you're learning how to update wikipedia, please use the sandbox. That's what it's for. And it's not for you to decide how important the EP's are. They're not albums, and so thay are ranked separately from them. Listing the EP's separately is not confusing. Listing everything together is. Please read through the wikipedia guidelines before making any further edits. Your enthusiasm is appreciated, but please do so withing the allocated guidelines of wikipedia. Alinblack (talk) 07:50, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

 * If they are available as completely separate albums all on their own, then yes, they should get their own mention. If not, then I cold see your point and a mention in the biography might be more appropriate or, as you mentioned, a page specifically for those albums could be created. It is my understanding, though, that they were actually released as separate albums. Discogs.com and several other sources show all of these as completely separate albums, not simply bonus discs. Also, Wikipedia editors tend to get weird about album pages which they don't think are really important. To address your next point, I re-edit because I find new ways to clarify things later on. Perhaps you have a different method. I can see how it might be preferred to do it another way, but I don't think of everything all at once. It's not like I'm brand new to Wikipedia, though. As for the EPs, in most cases EPs are listed with the albums. The purpose is to include major releases in one place. Perhaps you're not as familiar with this. What is confusing is to have to look through a whole list of singles to find what turns out to be only 2 EPs, but each which add a substantial number of new tracks. As for the singles, whey have separate chart numbers. If you can think of a better way to consolidate that information, then fair enough. I came on here and saw a lot of errors (in formatting, in things such as "Promised and" being listed as another EP, and in some things you mentioned as well, such as the Seelenschmerz info). My corrections might not have gone as far as you'd like. But *removing* information outright is not the way to go either. Let us discuss changes or refine the presentation, rather than deciding to simply delete useful information. It doesn't need to be a battle. MXVN (talk) 09:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Now ... Those 3 2009 albums, and the 2011 releases, all came out at about the same time. I remember in 2009 hearing that all 3 of those would come out on the same day. If this is not true, or if I have the chronology switched in any cases, feel free to let me know or make the correction. Thanks. :) MXVN (talk) 06:49, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Perhaps I'm not as familiar? I've been updating, editing and moderating wikipedia since August 2007. As you stated, you are new to this. So think about who is more familiar with the subject matter and context. If there's info about a bonus disc, add it to the page about the album. EPs, Albums and Singles are all separated. In most larger bands articles, the discography is limited to only studio albums (no live or compilations OR EPS!), and have everything else on a separate discography page. Look at the articles for bands such as Pendulum, Cradle of Filth, VNV Nation, P!nk, The Prodigy or Apoptygma Berzerk, you'll find the same thing with each, regardless of the band's genre, they're all formatted in the same way, with separate discography pages, in which Singles, Albums, and EPs are all separate. If you knew as much about the subject matter, you'd know that 'Redemption' and 'Behind the Mirror' were NOT physically released on their own but as part of Schwarzes Eis. On digital stores such as iTunes, they were separated. But have never officially been released as albums themselves, as they are bonus material. So if you wish to add the info about them, create the article for Schwarzes Eis, and add it there. And as I said previously... if you want to practice editing; use the sandbox! The information at the bottom stating about the bonus material is unnessicary. If you look at the articles for the album, it has all that information there, instead of clogging up the discography section. Like I said. Read the wikipedia guidelines before making edits. You didn't do that, you just went ahead and ignored it. If you continue editing without reading the guidelines, you will be reported for vandalism. Alinblack (talk) 12:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

 * I said I'm not new, man, if you read my paragraph. As for the other points, bonus discs and separate albums are entirely different things. But if you insist that they're bonus discs and want separate album pages, then CREATE A PAGE FOR THEM YOURSELF instead of just removing information all together and lecturing someone else on how they should have done it differently. At least I made the information available somewhere. There's no need to handle the situation as you are. The formatting errors were things like the double apostrophes not being present for album titles, etcetera. As far as BtM and Redemption not being available elsewhere ... well, if you're right then you are, and in that case they shouldn't be separate listings. However, when I was first told about these album releases, it was that they were releasing 3 albums at the same time, and as I mentioned, Discogs.com and even Google images shows them as separate releases. It's be nice if you sourced the contrary (something this supposedly well-formatted article could use anyway) or at the very LEAST made a POSITIVE update to the biography section or album pages to mention their existence. When someone Googles the band and finds albums which have no Wikipedia mention, there's a problem. Wouldn't it be preferred if the biography said they even existed? You're right about other bands having separate discography pages; I never argued against any of that, man. Blutengel could use one as well, but for right now there isn't one. Would you like to make one? If I did, you'd probably just delete it (and accuse me of vandalism if I tried to recreate it) rather than improving it. As for the unnecessary information at the bottom, I only mentioned what wasn't mentioned elsewhere. The other stuff was there long before I came around to this article, and I've already agreed that it's not the most efficient way of presenting it.

 * Your accusations at the end are rather troubling. I've read the guidelines and I've already explained why the sandbox doesn't work for everyone. There's no point trying to hammer me on it. Things like this are the reason this article is so insufficient, and missing information. I tried to help, and instead of fixing things that I could have done better, you simply undid it (well, a lot of it). Maybe you should care more about improving the article, and less about trying to be some sort of authority. Yes, you may be right about the bonus albums, but everything else you're doing here is just being unreasonable. But fine, until I get extra time to make new pages, I guess people just won't be able to even trust the article for accurate information (and they'll think Promised Land is an EP like the others), since you don't seem excited to actually help out with it yourself. MXVN (talk) 02:08, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Perhaps you should take your own advice on one thing. Instead of trying to add the information where it doesn't belong, create the pages. Put the effort in where it's needeed instead of trying to clutter up the main page. If you look here You'll see why 'Redemption' and 'BtM' both have artwork, because it was part of the Schwarzes Eis release, and that image is from the band's website. Discogs.com can be good for information, but it isn't always complete or accurate. Like wikipedia, it's user created, and is subject to human error.

If the sandbox doesn't work for you... then fine. Look at how the other album pages are structured, and base a new page from that. Start with the Schwarzes Eis page, and practice all you want making that. The information that I removed is still visable if you click the 'view history' tab at the top of the Blutengel page. So any information you want to move to the new pages, then get it from there. I've moved 'Promised Land' to the singles section now too. Also there's Tränenherz, Nachtbringer, The Oxidising Angel and I've also linked Soultaker now, so there's 5 including Schwarzes Eis to practice on. When starting a new page, I find it easier to copy an existing page as a template and then change all the info to make the page you want. Alinblack (talk) 08:45, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmm....
Ironic, current members have no links, but all former are linked. Shandristhe azylean 15:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Blutengel 02.jpg
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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 01:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Blutengel


text:
Badenyon

Badenyon (from Scottish Gaelic: Bad an Eòin - Knoll of the Birds) is a former clachan, or village, in Aberdeenshire, Scotland. The last farming inhabitant of Badenyon, Jeanie Farquarson, died in the early 1970s. Badenyon is now owned by the Blaxter family and is the host of the great Badenyon Boat Race which has been going for several years.

The site of the 13th-century Badenyon Castle is nearby.

title: Badenyon


text:
Talk:Nodezilla

1. Nodezilla doesn't appear to offer source to the C++ agent

2. Wikipedia is not an advertising engine for new products

3. Nodezilla doesn't appear to be linked from anywhere else

4. Nodezilla claims to be open source in a number of categories

Apart from this, Nodezilla looks extremely interesting. I hope it finds a place alongside Freenet, etc., with fully open source and a large user base.

Until then, well, there are issues...

VfD result
This article was previously nominated for deletion. For the result, see Votes for deletion/Nodezilla. JYolkowski // talk 21:52, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Website
I removed the website in this edit because the site is redirecting to some unhelpful portal, it can be added back if the site comes back online. -SpuriousQ (talk) 07:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Nodezilla


text:
Anhalt-Bernburg

Anhalt-Bernburg was a principality of the Holy Roman Empire and a duchy of the German Confederation ruled by the House of Ascania with its residence at Bernburg in present-day Saxony-Anhalt. It emerged as a subdivision from the Principality of Anhalt from 1252 until 1468, when it fell to the Ascanian principality of Anhalt-Dessau. Recreated in 1603, Anhalt-Bernburg finally merged into the re-unified Duchy of Anhalt upon the extinction of the line in 1863.

History
It was created in 1252, when the Principality of Anhalt was partitioned among the sons of Henry I into Anhalt-Aschersleben, Anhalt-Bernburg and Anhalt-Zerbst. Bernburg was allotted to Henry's second son Bernhard I. When the line of Anhalt-Aschersleben became extinct in 1315, Prince Bernhard II of Anhalt-Bernburg claimed their territory, he could however not prevail against his cousin Albert, Bishop of Halberstadt.

After the ruling family became extinct upon the death of Prince Bernhard VI in 1468, Anhalt-Bernburg was inherited by Prince George I of Anhalt-Dessau. With Anhalt-Dessau it was inherited by Prince Joachim Ernest of Anhalt-Zerbst in 1561, who unified all Anhalt lands under his rule in 1570.

Re-united Anhalt was again divided in 1603 among Prince Joachim Ernest's sons into the lines of Anhalt-Dessau, Anhalt-Köthen, Anhalt-Plötzkau, Anhalt-Bernburg and Anhalt-Zerbst. His second son Prince Christian I took his residence at Bernburg. Christian's younger son Frederick established the separate Principality of Anhalt-Harzgerode in 1635, which existed until 1709. Prince Victor Amadeus of Anhalt-Bernburg inherited Anhalt-Plötzkau in 1665. Upon his death in 1718 his lands were further divided and the Principality of Anhalt-Zeitz-Hoym was created for his second son Lebrecht, which was reunited with Anhalt-Bernburg in 1812.

In 1803 Prince Alexius Frederick Christian of Anhalt-Bernburg was elevated to the rank of a duke by Emperor Francis II of Habsburg. His son Duke Alexander Karl however died without issue in 1863, whereafter Anhalt-Bernburg was inherited by Leopold IV, Duke of Anhalt-Dessau, re-uniting all Anhalt lands under his rule.

Princes of Anhalt-Bernburg, 1252–1468

 * 1252–1287 Bernhard I
 * 1287–1291 John I, son, co-regent with his brother
 * 1287–1323 Bernhard II
 * 1323–1348 Bernhard III, son of Bernhard II
 * 1348–1354 Bernhard IV, son
 * 1354–1374 Henry IV, brother
 * 1374–1404 Otto III, brother
 * 1404–1420 Bernhard V, son of Henry IV, co-regent with his cousin
 * 1404–1415 Otto IV, son of Otto III
 * 1420–1468 Bernhard VI, brother of Otto IV, left no male heirs
 * To Anhalt-Dessau

Princes of Anhalt-Bernburg, 1603–1803

 * 1603–1630 Christian I, second son of Prince Joachim Ernest of Anhalt
 * 1630–1656 Christian II, son
 * 1656–1718 Victor Amadeus, son
 * 1718–1721 Karl Frederick, son
 * 1721–1765 Victor Frederick, son
 * 1765–1796 Frederick Albert, son
 * 1796–1803 Alexius Frederick Christian, son
 * Raised to duchy

Dukes of Anhalt-Bernburg, 1803–1863

 * 1803–1834 Alexius Frederick Christian
 * 1834–1863 Alexander Karl, son, died without issue
 * To re-united Anhalt

title: Anhalt-Bernburg


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The hutton enquiry

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete and redirect --Tony Sidaway Talk 03:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

The hutton enquiry
nn band. Punkmorten 11:57, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * NN - "Hutton Enquiry"+Guildford yields 63 google hits, all but two of them connected with the official government inquiry (the other two were for the band). Delete the content and use the page as a redirect to Hutton Inquiry. A shame - titles like "Penguin Frog March" deserve to be noted somewhere. Grutness...  wha?  12:49, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect - as per Grutness --Doc (?) 13:06, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect per Grutness. - Mgm|(talk) 13:29, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed - Delete and redirect. Although I might buy their second album just to hear 'The Haiku Dungeon' for myself. Peeper 13:52, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, but agree those song titles are great. I particularly like "all bran gangster". the wub  "?/!"  15:21, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect per Grutness. --TheMidnighters 22:15, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect -- Etacar11   00:38, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 'A best of album is already in the works' - blimey. Delete. Proto t c 14:36, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - Not notable - Tεx  τ  urε  21:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text: User talk:67.86.32.131

title: User talk:67.86.32.131