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Talk:Time travel/Archive 1

Okay, I've just redesigned the entire talk page here Please try to keep the talk page readable in this (or a similar manner) (Way too many Horizontal Rules "")

Until death?
Doesn't we keep on travel in time after our death?

Faster than Light
Note faster-than-light exists and FTL, but not FTL travel when we doing linkages here. Perhaps there should be a redirect? There is also discussion in Wormhole about implications of using that for FTL communications. AlMac|(talk) 18:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

and causality loops
This brings another objection. According to special relativity, traveling faster than light is equivalent to traveling backwards in time, according to some observers. In particular, if faster than light travel is possible without too many arbitrary restrictions, it is possible to have events in the future cause events in the past. This is called a causality loop.

In relativity there are two kinds of intervals, time-like and space-like, the former corresponding to sublight speeds and that latter to supralight speeds. The two are non-equivalent so faster than light objects won't have a rest frame. This is not the same thing as traveling backwards through time, but I'm not really sure how this paragraph should be edited, without trying to explain the whole theory here.

 * There are also light-like intervals, which correspond to (!) light speed.

For anything travelling faster than light, there exists a reference frame in which it goes back in time. This does not cause paradox unless it or a signal from it returns to the starting point before the start of travel, thereby creating a causality loop.

I always thought the rule was that only one thing in the universe could break the light speed barrier, because the act of doing so would suck up all the mass of the universe, as the speed voolator went to infinite mass. AlMac|(talk) 23:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Difficulty of traveling FTL
Not sure about this.

First, exceeding the speed of light wouldn't result in a reversal of time.

Second, this isn't true if you have an object of a rest mass of zero.

 * This would lead one to posit that exceeding the speed of light would result in a reversal of time. While this is mathematically sound, as one approaches the speed of light, exponentially more force must be applied to accelerate, until finally an infinite amount of energy must be applied to reach the speed of light exactly. The only people who suggest that we must only develop technology to exceed the speed of light to develop time travel are people who do not understand the concept of mathematical limits.

 * But that's exactly what it is: a mathematical limit, in a mathematical model of reality. Mathematical models are constrained by what we know of the universe. Reality isn't. :)

 * Re Mathematical limit. It was shown (I believe proven mathematically) that we would never be able to exceed the speed of sound because of the pressure built up in front of the craft. As speed increases toward the speed of sound, this buildup increases. There was a large portion of the mathematical community convinced of this fact. We were able to overcome it and exceed that barrier (several times over now). While I admit that the concepts involving increasing math is substantially different, I do not underestimate the human mind. McKay 00:27, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Objects of zero mass have to travel at the speed of light. There can be no exception.

Objects that go faster than the speed of light to travel backwards in time. And while the reasoning above is valid, it doesn't deal with the possibility of something that comes into existence travelling faster than the speed of light.

What is the difference between the Revelation of John and the Book of Revelation? - Zoe

 * Stuffed if I know, Zoe. I was just trying to remove the preaching implicit in the last version.  -Robert Merkel 07:18 May 7, 2003 (UTC)

An important issue for time travel is the movement of information, and here it crosses over with prophecy. Harry Potter

Question
This is an interesting topic that I never really did understand much. The part that I am still a bit confused about is how it is believed that travelling faster than the speed of light will actually result in reversal of time. Is it because we mark time based on what we are able to see? I imagine not, since, if we were all blind, then sound would be our measure, and clearly going faster than the speed of sound doesn't cause time to reverse.

It seems clear that light cannot travel faster than the speed of light (although I've recently heard tell that the speed of light may not actually be as constant as once thought), and clearly there are other small particles that travel close to the speed of light that seem to slow down timewise. However, I can still see that it has clearly taken light a long time to reach from the outside of the galaxy back to earth, and we are seeing events that happened billions of years ago, but if something was able to go faster than the speed of light from the edge of the galaxy to reach here (say a billion times faster) it seems to me that it would still be years behind in reaching us, and not ahead of us.

Some of the arguments that I have heard (I apologize for not having any references here) seem to be similar to the arguments that we should not be able to move, since in order to reach a destination, we would have to get half way there first, and in order to get half way there, we would have to get half way to the half way point ad infinitum. We would have to traverse an infinite distance just to move. Clearly we are capable of moving over an infinite number of points in space, so could it be possible that if we found a way to travel faster than light, it would not necessarily cause a regression of time? I have other thoughts on this matter, but very little factual information to back them up, so I will quit while I'm behind.

(I'm still a bit new to wiki, so if this conversation seems very out of place, please let me know if there is a more appropriate place to move it to.)

Thank you --Chris

Answer
It all comes down to the speed fo light being a constant. Understanding why time dilation occurs because both moving and stationary obsesrvers both have to clock the speed of light at c is the first part understanding this. Second imagine a traveler exceeding the speed of light (from a rest frame). In order for both a rest frame observer and the traveling observer to observer the light traveling at the speed of light. The light would actually have to travel backwards to "catch up" to where it needs to be. McKay 06:24, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * As an added note, the relationship between time and the speed of light in Special Relativity is expressed as a formula which shows that the observed time of an object (t) slows down as it approaches the speed of light (c) - time dilation. When the velocity is equal to c, t equals zero. If you plug in a velocity faster than c, t goes into negative figures. -khaosworks 08:11, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Khaos, What equation are you referring to? You aren't referring to the Lorentz equation are you? Can you provide the equation here? McKay 20:23, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * It's Special Relativity's equation for time dilation, $$t' = {t\over1-\sqrt{(v^2/c^2)}}$$, where $$t'$$ is the fraction of $$t$$ that is dilated, $$v$$ is velocity and $$c$$ is the speed of light.

 * So, if an object is at rest, $$v = 0$$ and time is moving at a normal pace, $$t = 1$$, then time dilation is $$0$$. Keeping the flow of time constant at $$1$$, as $$v$$ increases, $$t'$$ decreases accordingly, until finally, when $$v$$ is equal to $$c$$, then $$t' = {1\over0} = 0$$. So if $$v$$ exceeds $$c$$, then $$t'$$ becomes negative, indicating that the object is actually observed going backwards in time. -khaosworks 00:31, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * While I see what you are doing, I wonder where you got that equation. That looks similar to the Lorentz Factor, but is actually quite different. the lorents factor shows time dilation as $$t' = {t\over\sqrt{1-(v^2/c^2)}}$$ Unless I'm mistaken. In this case, plugging numbers for $$v$$ higher than c return an undefined solution (in real space). Am I missing something somewhere.McKay 05:34, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Well $$t' = {1\over0}$$ does not equal $$0$$ anyway.  That's undefined.  PaulHammond 20:07, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Hmm. A bit of research shows two versions of the time dilation equation. I'm not sure which one is correct now. -khaosworks 06:31, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, I can prove mine mathematically, and wouldn't mind doing so, (want me to do it here?) so where did you find the other equation, somewhere in wikipedia? I'd like to follow their math.

 * I'm not a physicist, and to be honest my math is pretty basic - I'm just a relatively well-read amateur. You might want to Google for it and have a look yourself. -khaosworks 21:32, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I decided to provide a proof at Lorentz factor feel free to take a look, I'd be happy to provide any questions if you want.McKay 07:35, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks. Looking at it, it seems to me that either way, $$t'$$ appears to go into negative figures for velocities exceeding $$c$$ -khaosworks 08:54, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Not quite. In the formula that I provided, velocities cannot exceed $$c$$, because this provides a value less than zero under a radical with an even root, so the time dilation according to the Lorentz factor is undefined, not negative.McKay 18:58, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

not just winding back clock?
In your article on time travel you cover the proposal to use of a wormhole for the creation of a time machine. The basic idea is to take one end of a wormhole through a relativistic journey - using either Special Relativity i.e. using pure speed to slow down time or General Relativity i.e. using a strong gravitation field to slow down time.

This article ( and other like it in popular scientific magazines ) generally dismiss this approach on purely practical grounds - such as the amount of energy required to create such a wormhole; but I would like to question the whole theoretical basis of the argument. To make things simpler I would like to start by considering a far more practical experiment as a first step.

Instead of one end of a wormhole I would like to use a camera with a built-in clock ( the sort of digital camera that can put a timestamp on the picture ). Take this camera on the sort of relativistic journey as proposed above. To make the discussion comprehensible let's assume on 1st January 2000 we set of on a ten year ( Earth time ) journey in such a way that the camera only experiences nine years elapsed time. When the camera arrives back on Earth all the local calendars will be showing 1st Jan 2010 but the internal clock for the camera will show 1st January 2009. Now the big question. If I take a photograph of the calendar on my wall do I get a picture of the 2009 calendar or the 2010 calendar? As I see it the picture must be of the 2010 calendar - even though the camera will give it a 2009 timestamp.

Now simply replace the camera with the end of the wormhole and attach a clock to the exit of the wormhole. When the end of the wormhole returns to Earth the very fabric of the space in the wormhole may have only aged by nine years and the clock will read 2009 but anyone looking out will see the 2010 calendar on the wall and if you step out of the hole you will be stepping into 2010 and not 2009. Time will then continue to progress for the exit of the wormhole and the outside world at the same rate so if you step into the entrance in 2020 you will see the wormhole exit clock reading 2019 but you will step out into 2020 - back when you started. So as a means of time travel it is no more effective that winding your wristwatch back.

RLS, 2004-08-04
 * Hah, I figured it out. This one had me stumped for a few weeks. I tried explaining it in my head, but couldn't quite get the words out right. As I was explaining a couple of TT concepts to a roomate, I figured out how to describe it.
 * Draw two paralell lines on a sheet of paper (or just visualize yourself doing it). Place a straightedge perpendicular to both parallel lines. This straightedge represents the wormhole. Currently, the two different lines represent the time lines for the two locations in space where the ends of the wormhole are (seperated by however much 3-D distance you wish). Under normal circumstances, the ruler will move forward, torque free, with a vector of motion paralell to the two lines. As one end of the wormhole is accelerated to a fraction of the speed of light and experiences time dilation, the other end of the wormhole does not. The "stationary" end of the wormhole continues to move forward along its timeline at the same rate as before, while the "moving" end of the wormhole doesn't move forward as fast as it used to. If under the same speed and time conditions you presented above, imagine you are the one moving the end of the wormhole in your spaceship. Leaving in 2000, making what appears to you to be a 9 year journey, the rest of the world experienced ten years. Your calendar will read 2009, and the worlds will read 2010. Being someone who doesn't live in the past, you move your calendar forward a year to match theirs, but you are now biologically one year younger than your twin brother. But where is the other end of the wormhole? If you were still moving it forward at the same rate, and you quickly enter the end of the wormhole that was accelerated to a fraction of the speed of light, the other end is now in 2011.111111... (just after noon on Feb 9 if I did my math right), so your calendar is now 1.111 years behind normal earth time, and your brother is 2.11111 years older than you are.
 * Does this all make sense? Should this be included in the main article to alleviate questions like yours (and mine ;) )?

Thankyou for your response. The part that troubles me is the claim that the entrance end ( the one that remained on Earth all the time ) will be in 2011. The journey for the exit end ( the one that did the travelling ) was specified as lasting ten years as measured by Earth time. As the entrance end remains stationary relative to the Earth it will have aged ten years and the entrance clock will read 2010 and any camera attached to the entrance will photograph the 2010 calendar and give it a 2010 timestamp, essentially the entrance will be in 2010. When the exit end returns to Earth in 2010 ( Earth time ) the wormhole exit camera will be able to photograph both the laboratory calendar and the wormhole entrance clock and both will show 2010 but be given a timestamp of 2009. Let us take the case of a subject who travelled with the moving end. He will have aged only nine years and his own watch will read 2009 but he will be back on earth in 2010. If he immediately goes through the wormhole in a reverse direction ( i.e. enters the exit end and emerges from the entrance end ) he will come out in 2010. The fact that his watch still read 2009 does not mean he travelled back a year, simply that his watch was wrong as a result of his original relativistic journey. To make this clearer assume that when he first arrived back on Earth, after his trip with the wormhole exit, he meets his brother and takes him on the reverse wormhole trip. The brother would have been on Earth for the ten year duration of the original trip; his watch would say 2010; he would see the calendar and wormhole entrance clocks both saying 2010; he would see the wormhole exit clock saying 2009. After his reverse trip through the wormhole his watch would still say 2010 and he would still see the laboratory calendar saying 2010.

RLS, 2004-11-20
 * I think you're getting a little confused ebcause you are switching reference frames when you shouldn't. I'm not sure though. i'm going to explain what each of the perspectives, Wormhole, and stationary and moving twin. I will do all of this relative to the earth (stationary) time.

 * Moving Twin. He's the guy who gets accelerated to the fraction of the speed of light, with the exit of the wormhole. For simplicity, assume the acceleration is very fast, and the time spent doing such is negligible. On January 1st 2000, he begins his trip beginning with an acceleration to the fraction of the speed of light (0.19$$c$$ I believe), and remaining at that speed for some time. While on the ship, he practices StarCraft for the matchup with his brother when he returns. When his calendar says (is about to say) January 1st 2009, he begins the rapid deceleration and lands just about where he left. His clock says Jan 1st 2009, but the world clock says January 1st 2010.
 * Stationary Twin. He's the guy who just sits around playing StarCraft the entire time. He's watching the clock when his twin leaves at 1 January 2000, and watches him come back on 1 January 1 2010. He then proceeds to kick his brother's trash because he's got an extra year of practice on him.
 * Wormhole. Now I think its important to realize that a wormhole isn't really space, nor does it "age" per se. The wormhole exists out of space-time. For our purposes, it was created|discovered some time ago, and was prepared for this jorney. Initially, it maps between two points at the same time. Uhh, one end at Blizzard's headquarters (very close to the twin's house), and the other has been placed in a special device that allows it to move when the spacecraft moves, but has access ports that allow anyone to go through it still. This is where the straightedge example comes in. before 2000, both ends of the wormhole were moving through the timelines of each of their respective associated points in space at the same rate. When one end is acclerated, that end experiences time slower. In this example, after 1 Jan 2000, and before 1 Jan 2010 (remember we're using Earth Time, because the wormhole itself doesn't have frame of reference within a time dimension) 9/10 as fast. The one end of the wormhole that was accelerated to the fraction of the speed of light, is now 10 years in the future compared to when it began it's journey. The other end, must be 10/9 times as far into the future, because it was stationary, so that would be 100/9 years, or 11.1111111... years. The wormhole doesn't have an age. Had an observer (a long lost triplet perhaps) entered the stationary end of the wormhole on 1 Jan 2010, he would be put on the ship, (9/10 * 10 years) 9 earth years into the journey, which would put him in the spaceships time of (9/10 * 9 years), 8.1 years past the departure, or 2008 (feb ish)

One minor point. I do not agree that the wormhole exist outside spacetime - it is part of spacetime. In general I still thing you are confusing local aging with passage through time as measured by a reference frame. To try to make my ideas clearer I have created a web page with a detailed presentation of my argument. See :- [my webpage] I hope this will either convince you I am right or allow you to pinpoint exactly where I went wrong.

RLS, 2004-11-27
 * I read your paper, and I think I understand what you are saying now, but I still am not sure I entirely agree. Lemme make a couple of assumptions, before I make my statement, you let me know where I go wrong.

 * Wormholes are essentially a mapping between two points in normal space-time (actually it's an einstein-rosen bridge, but it wouldn't be hard to mathematically state the 4 dimensional coordinates of both locations.
 * Wormholes can exist that travel through time. (Whether such procedure stated by Kip could do such a thing, is yet to be determined)
 * Moving ends of a wormhole is concievable
 * Moving ends of a wormhole is difficult, because this is not just the motion of matter, but the alteration of space/time.
 * Having said all of that, my conclusion is that while devices that move wormholes are very difficult, and might exhibit the exact behaviour that you describe, it could also be concievable that the device moves the wormhole through time as well as through space. I don't think that Kip's method would prevent it, as such a device might bind the exit to matter, which could be modified in such a way.

 * Minor comments on your paper :

McKay 04:30, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * typos all over the place.
 * you mention only moving one end of the wormhole, but between figures 1 and 2, you show both ends moving.

I am not sure I agree with the first assumption. Normal space is continuous through the wormhole ( I could conceive of a situation where the universe looks like an erythrocyte with the two faces touching, but this is not how the Thorne wormhole is configured ). Personally I doubt that wormholes can travel through time but I am sure that my argument shows that the Thorne method won’t produce them. Sorry about all the typos, I have removed a lot of them but every time I look more appear. As for the figure; only one end is shown, the other is at some indeterminate point of the diagram - I have changed the caption to make this ( slightly ) less confusing. Early next week I intend to float the idea on the sci.physics.relativity newsgroup; so you can have the fun of seeing me being savaged by the mob.

RLS, 2004-12-04

worm hole inside of another worm hole
In Science Fiction, we see worm holes of various sizes, from not much larger than a human in Star Gate TV series, to large enough for humogous space ships. Can we postulate a large worm hole, then make a smaller one inside? Why would anyone want to do this? Well, travel through a wormhole is a finite time, even though it violates speed of light rules. It is a short cut in space time between distant places within our Galaxy. Perhaps a short cut within a short cut would make travel to another Galaxy practical.

Does a worm hole have to have two ends? AlMac|(talk) 03:04, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Vehicles and positioning
In science fiction and elsewhere, I've encountered 3 different types of time machine. Please improve the suggested names of each of these types.

li An interesting case is the H. G. Wells The Time Machine. It looks like a History type machine, because it does not move, during the time travel. However, it is however moved in the far future and upon return to 1900, it arrives outside the house, rather than inside the house where it was in 1900. This makes it a vehicular type.
 * Vehicular type This time machine travels with the traveller(s) to the destination time and place (e.g. the TARDIS of Doctor Who).
 * External type This time machine does not travel with the traveller(s). The travellers arrive at the destination without the time machine (e.g The Time Tunnel or the time machine of Quantum Jump).
 * History Type This time machine does not travel in time with the traveller(s), but the traveller(s) always emerge from the time machine at some time in its history (e.g. wormhole time machine). The travellers can not go further back in time than the earliest time in the time machine's history or go anywhere where the time machine was not located.

Someonewhat unrelated, there is an Isaac Asimov story (I think) about a murder committed with a type of antigravity machine that decouples the movement of an object from all the forces acting on it - the assumption in the story is that a billiard ball on the table (for that is what the story revolves around) will slowly lift off the table as forces around it stop acting on it, but, of course, what happens is that it shoots off at high speed and kills someone. It is stationary relative the the movement of the sun, earth etc.

--- Karl Palmen

 * Taking in account Earth, Sun, and Milky Way's movement don't make much sense for me. In physics, position in space (and time) it's only a relative measure. Taking something off the "coordinate system" makes as sense as taking it off the Universe. The "Earth movement" problem is the same as teleporting: the travelling device needs physical means to transmit matter, energy and information (first of all, information) in this universe (as a Clifford D. Simak book does with teleportation, with a web of machines through the galaxy which send information about the traveller's particles, so they can be destroyed at departure and reconstructed at arrival, making a bit of creepy kind of voyage). If you give means to do it (as did Wells, who nailed it), it necessary will provide a clear arriving point in space and time. There is nothing as dissapearing from here and pop there, whithout nothing underlying doing the work to link one event to another. If it's something magic, unespecified, or through another universe, it could be anything. That would be more of fantasy than science (or science-fiction).

One way to have a "paradoxical" universe is to have two time dimensions. For example, model the entire present universe as the internal state of a computer. In that case, when someone goes into the "past", that just tells the computer to rewind and alter a backup copy of the universe's state. In this case, there's the time of the computer and the time inside of the computer. And of course, this is exactly how Star Trek and other such shows model time travel.

TMaxine?
I moved the following from the article as it did not fit into the article where it was posted. I could not find any google hits for it either, so either it is nonsense or it needs rewording (context? Maybe a SF story I don't know) to be understandable by a normal reader.

 * The TMaxine Project is designing a console and Multidimensional Training in order to develop experience in the practicalities.

andy

_____________________________________

Who is John Titor?

The purveyor of the Tmxxine stuff, deleted last month, has reposted it; I've reverted that edit. This month's newcomer from the realm of ideas that, to put it charitably, don't have general acceptance, is the "Chronovisor" stuff. My impression is that this one actually has a few adherents, with a book published about it, so I'm reluctantly leaving it in, the way we leave in other pseudoscientific drivel. The Chronovisor article to which it links does say "still unconfirmed," "alleged existence," etc. JamesMLane 08:52, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Religious traditions
From opening paragraph of article:
 * "...the religious traditions of Jesus Christ, descended from the Kingdom of God, which exists out-of-time-and-space..."

Can anyone give some more specific reference for this? I am not aware of any traditions of time travel episodes involving Jesus, certainly not comparable to the explicit Mohammad story. There are some (not particularly systematic) modern metaphysical constructions about god's kingdom being outside time, but I don't think an off-hand reference like this is justified. As far as Jesus is concerned the nearest would probably be mystical statements in John's Gospel such as "before Abraham was born, 'I am'" (Jn. 8.58) but that doesn't seem to amount to the same thing. FrankP 10:21, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I think that they really meant to link to Kingdom of Heaven, which doesn't explain it either. I'm not a believer in this particular trait of heaven's "location", but some believe that heaven exists outside of time and space, I think the necian creed, or the trenton creed or something may mention something like this. I don't belive it, so I wouldn't know where to look. I don't like the implication, so I'm not going to go to all the trouble to find the correct info and fix it either, if someone does, fine by me though. You are correct that nothing states this directly in the scriptures AFAIK. McKay 13:34, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Let's leave it out then, unless somebody else can justify it. I don't believe religious stories either (I'm an atheist with an unhealthy tendency towards Biblical scholarship), but it seems to me there's enough fiction in the Bible already without inventing more that isn't there. There's some airborne transport (Elijah, Ezekiel) and some flying by Jesus (Acts 1:9), also predicted for his followers on his return (1 Thess 4:17), but no time travel. I'd have to check the wording for the Nicene and Tridentine creeds, but from memory there is no very specific church teaching on spatial or temporal whereabouts of heaven. FrankP 15:25, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Anon Technobabble
An anon recently added this paragraph:

Consider this,We all know the fundamental cells are made of atoms.SO inorder to travel time too we need time molecule.But time molecule is not actually a molecule,but an assumption of a great energy.Consider Einstein's theory of relativity M/[t*(1-(v^2/c^2))^1/2],where M=mass,v=velocity,c=velocity of light,t=time. here if the body travels equal to the speed of light then its mass will be at infinity.But if it travels faster than speed of light then its mass decreases.Therefore an utmost potential form of energy is created in itself.It  also  posses enormous kinetic energy.This energy if harnessed could provide either necessary time or dimension travel. NOTE:-This is just one of the visions for time travel.There may be a slight truth in this theory. So if this is true when you travel through time you travel through each and every second of a day.So if you travel through a YEAR PAST or FUTURE you are crossing each and every day at unimaginable(may be reality in future)speeds.SO time travel is not safe even if you think of wormholes.

Obviously, it has to be cleaned up, but I have no idea if the information is correct or not. Can someone who understands this decide whether we should renovate it/keep it/etc.? --pie4all88

 * It sounds like psuedo-scientific technobabble to me. What the passage is describing is the tachyon, but the inference that the tachyon possesses enormous kinetic energy is patent nonsense. -khaosworks 05:48, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Ok, I think I'll remove the paragraph. If someone wants to put it back in, they can just go to the article's history and clean it all up.  Paragraphs with this many errors reflect badly on Wikipedia anyways. --pie4all88 18:42, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Going faster than light does not take you backward in time. Plug in such a velocity in the time dilation expression and see that it results in an imaginary temporal displacement. Going backward in time requires a timelike catastrophe into the nonprincipal conjugate, at any velocity.lysdexia 02:57, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Cernobov
It appears there was a revert war about this Cernobov paragraph. The paragraph sounds like crackpotism to me and I've deleted it, not doing a simple revert because some normal changes were made in the interim. JamesMLane 20:04, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Possibility of paradoxes
The article states under "The possibility of paradoxes" If his results can be generalized they would suggest, curiously, that none of the supposed paradoxes formulated in time travel stories can actually be formulated at a precise physical level: that is, that any situation you can set up in a time travel story turns out to permit of many consistent solutions. The last part of the sentence, "turns out to permit of many consistent solutions" has me baffled--the "of" shouldn't appear here. I don't know, however, if it's supposed to permit one of many or just many. Can someone who knows help me out here?

Examples of Time Travel Vehicles
When I rewrote the part involving the name of those two popular time travel vehicles, I wrote it in such a way that didn't require usage of the name of the time travel device. That's because in Wells's novel, the ship isn't given a name, so saying "Wells's novel of the same name" doesn't work.McKay 06:24, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Heinlein/Paradox reference isn't
"Probably the most elaborate demonstrations of supposed time travel paradoxes are in Robert A. Heinlein's All You Zombies... and By His Bootstraps"

Actually, these are examples of a lack of paradox, as is the movie Twelve Monkeys.

In 'All You Zombies' Heinlein describes a character who is a natural and functional hermaphrodite, raised as an orphan, impregnated by a mmysterious man, who disappears. The female reproductive organs are destroyed in the one birth. Later the child is stolen from the new mother-father. The person grows older and meets up with an older man who introduces them to the ability to travel in time, whereupon they travel back to confront the mysterious man and, instead, are the man, then travel forward again to retrieve the child and drop it off back in time as an orphan, then travel forward in time to instroduce their younger self to time travel.

Likewise, 'Byt his Bootstraps' describes a similar closed loop. Mind boggling as the story may be, NO paradox is encountered.

Compare this to the movie 'Twelve Monkeys' wherein Bruce Willis's character is sent back time to prevent a plague that wipes out most of humanity and not only does he completely fail to stop it, he inadvertently causes it (indirectly) AND sees his younger self from the opposite end of a suppressed memory in his own childhood of seeing a man who would later be him.

These three stories are not demonstrations of paradox but, quite the contrary, demonstrations of The Novikov self-consistency principle.

 * See predestination paradox. -khaosworks 20:47, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Parallel universes need clarification
If we make an assumption that each of these parallel universes is a dimension
 * Universe is not a dimension, at least not in the physical sense (only in the sense of "another dimension"). Thus I don't think that this paragraph actually makes sense even gramatically, much less physically. Please, someone more familiar with the history of this article, clear this up. Paranoid 22:51, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * The quoted phrase is poorly stated. A multi-verse is a collection of universes, which are separated by one or more dimensions.  The universe, in which we dwell, has less dimensions. AlMac|(talk) 23:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Deleted reference to Superman
Superman (1978),

Because I don't think it's a "Key example" of a film involving time travel concepts PaulHammond 19:57, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In reference to the film, it is mentioned that film implied that Supermen prevented bombs from exploding, which is incorrect - bomb exploded in space, and that was important part of the plot for Superman II, IIRC. saigon_from_europe

 * The bomb that exploded in space from Superman II and released the Phantom Zone criminals was in the elevator of the Eiffel Tower. Different nuclear device entirely. --khaosworks 21:51, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Religious edit

 * "Prophecy as decision

 * The most simple explanation is that prophecy is merely the announcement of future events that will happen because god chooses to make them happen and the fulfillment is merely the event taking place, which was announced earlier. This is the most likely explanation and meets Einstein's demand that explanations should be as simple as possible, but not simpler."
 * Attributed to 213.23.248.77 on April 8, 2005.

Comments:

The first sentence this seems to be a re-statement of the material right after it.

The confused reference to Occam's Razor - which was not in any way "Einstein's demand" -  does not make sense. Applying Occam's Razor would in my opinion result in the explanation that observers choose to remember prophecies that appear to have been fulfilled over prophecies that were not fulfilled. This sentence also fails to be neutral POV, especially with the blanket statement: "This is the most likely explanation".

 * WCFrancis 20:02, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * (Reverted while I was writing the above. Not the first time this has happened and I doubt that it will be the last.)

User:213.23.248.77 is at it again. This nonregistered user at same address as above changed "It is interesting to note that any religion which postulates the existence of fulfilled prophecy requires, at the very least, an agent which can move information from the future into the past." by changing to "It is not interesting...., because that is a logical fallacy which ignores that god may just be deciding on a specific event and announce it ahead of time, which leads to the more interesting question if he should be doing this at all and what the ethical foundation for this is."

Already reverted. This begins to appear as an agenda well beyond any reasonable neutral point of view.

Please note: it is my understanding (limited though it may be due to my "newby" status) that an article is a totally inappropriate place for philosophical discussion and/or argument. That's what Talk is for.

 * WCFrancis 03:09, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually, it does raise an interesting point; if a sufficiently powerful entity issues the statement "In X number of years event Y will happen," and then X years later it makes event Y happen, or if a sufficiently clever entity figures out that event Y is almost certain to happen in X years and predicts it, that would have the appearance of prophecy without requiring any time travel to happen. We therefore can't say that prophecy requires time travel. The anon is wording it poorly, however. Bryan 18:13, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Can this be expressed w/o treating time as medium?
Intro now says
 * It has been confirmed that travelling at speeds approaching the speed of light can cause time dilation, the effects of which cause the individual travelling to pass through time more slowly. From the perspective of the traveller, external time would be going much faster, causing the traveller, upon stopping, to arrive at a place farther in the future than their subjective elapsed time would indicate.

 * pass through time more slowly suggests a preferred frame of reference
 * instead of external time & subjective time why not just talk about frames of reference?
 * subjective time suggests it is just a matter of personal perception rather than a measurement that even tools would make

Can this idea be expressed w/o talking about time as though it were a medium (like water or the aether)? --JimWae 20:27, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)

Can length (space) be measured apart from the length of something? Can time be measured apart from measuring the time for an event(s)? Can either space or time be measured, or are they not conceptual constructs (perhaps unavoidable, perhaps because of how our brains work) with which we measure events & objects?--JimWae 20:27, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)

 * The difficulty Jim sees seems to me to be the result of not paying attention to the maths. The contrast between length and time is misguided - it should be duration vs. length; time vs distance. Creeping idealism, perhaps - is Jim having trouble understanding time travel from an idealist viewpoint? Banno 21:35, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

You persist in making this personal, don't you Banno? You want to solve the problem by Banno's fiat of what "it should be"? Perhaps instead you could explain on what basis you claim it is improper to treat length & time as 2 of 4 dimensions. Your dodge does not affect the relevance of my point - my point remains releavent whether you talk about measuring length or measuring distance. We do not measure distance itself either, we measure the distance between 2 "points". If you think YOU do understand time travel, Banno, I suggest you are fooling yourself. --JimWae 21:56, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)

The wording of the time dilation remarks in the introductory paragraph was indeed unclear (though not as bad as the rest of the paragraph used to be). I've reworded it into something more appropriate. My main concern is with going into too much detail in the introduction (that's what the "physics" section of the page is for). --Christopher Thomas 22:53, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Info Box
As an anonymous user said; the info box at the top of the article makes it look like a magazine. The user removed it and it was almost immediately replaced by someone else. Well IT DOES make this article look like a magazine article! It's completely out of place in an encyclopaedia. It looks stupid; it's banal. I vote it be removed. Arcturus 10:58, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * As I said when I reverted the anon's edit, I think it is fine. It is no completely out of place - other articles have similar boxes; I don't see why why "looking like a magazine" is a bad thing; It is eye-catching. So I say keep it. But this is a trivial issue. Banno 21:34, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I didn't realise it, but this template is used in numerous articles concerning unsolved problems in physics. However, I still maintain that its use trivialises these important topics. It might be eye catching, but it serves no useful purpose here. I hope other people contribute to this discussion. Arcturus 21:45, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that, far from trivializing it, it directs the lay reader's mind as to why the subject is worthy of contemplation. It would be a boring article indeed if it were only a dry, academic treatise — Wikipedia should be useful, and articles should inform not just the interesed, but also interest the random reader. As Plutarch said, the mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be lighted. --khaosworks 21:53, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

Place and time
if time travel was possible, would you end up in the same place you started. say you were in london england in 2005, and wanted to time travel to the year 3000 a.d., if you started your journey in england would u end up in england? or could you end up in another country? (--Nicksinif, 21 June 2005)
 * The short answer is that you could end up just about anywhere you wanted to. What constitutes "the same place" depends on your reference frame, and picking that is pretty arbitrary. A reasonable constraint to keep movement in space and time of the same order would be to say you couldn't teleport more than 10 light-years if you were travelling forward or backwards 10 years in time (as the two represent comparable distances in spacetime from the point of view of someone stationary in your original reference frame), but that's an arbitrary restriction. Another way of looking at it is to realize that by performing time travel, you're already moving in space from the point of view of someone in a different reference frame (this is covered in more detail at faster than light and special relativity; you actually look like you're doing a FTL teleport from some reference frames).--Christopher Thomas 07:42, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

in back to the future 3, marty was living in a 1985 la suburb, but somehow ended up 6 hrs north of la in jamestown ca when he went back to 1885. is that possible? he starts out in la and ends up in jamestown ca? (--Nicksinif, 21 June 2005)
 * Helpful note - you can sign your name (and a datestamp) by putting four ~ signs at the end of your comment. This makes it less confusing for others to read talk threads. --Christopher Thomas 07:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * The dates changed, so maybe the Earth orbits the sun in a very slightly different plane than space-time does? ;)Still the sun is not where it was 100 years ago either. Or maybe it's a work of fiction ;) --JimWae 07:46, 2005 Jun 21 (UTC)
 * Spacetime doesn't actually orbit anything; it's what makes things orbit :). More seriously, part of the principles behind relativity are that spacetime doesn't impose a preferred reference frame, so whether you tag along with the earth or follow a different path is mostly arbitrary (it just takes work to change which inertial frame you're in). A time machine is also very handy as a distance-teleporting machine. --Christopher Thomas 07:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * If you were at particular coordinates, and were able to travel in time, without changing anything else, then upon arrival you had better be wearing a space suit, because planet Earth, our Sun, and perhaps a whole lot more have moved someplace else. AlMac|(talk) 23:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup?
It seems that this article is getting very long, and very bogged down with literature references. Are people open to the idea of compacting the main article, and moving some of its content to topic-specific sub-articles? A list of suitable secondary articles might be along the lines of the following: The main article would be pared down to something like the following: I'm willing to perform the reorganization, if most of the posters here think one is acceptable. I just think that the article as it currently stands is very unweildy. Comments/suggestions? --Christopher Thomas 6 July 2005 19:58 (UTC)
 * List of fictional works about time travel (keep only extremely noteworthy citations, like "The Time Machine" and maybe "Doctor Who", in the main article)
 * Methods of time travel (description of the theoretical physics constructs possibly allowing time travel goes here; just put a bulletted list in the main article)
 * Fictional methods of time travel ("other approaches and examples" subsection goes here, along with some of the "types of time travel" material)
 * (if there's sufficient material available) Time travel in religion
 * Introduction (compacted)
 * Physics (fold in "space-time travel" and "distance" sections, list at most one-sentence descriptions of methods, link to methods page)
 * Religion (trim substantially, link to appropriate page if there's enough encyclopedic material to justify it) (probably at least a sub page could be made)
 * Fiction (list extremely noteworthy examples, link to fiction page)
 * References (some of these get moved to appropriate sub-pages)

You might want to split the list of fictional works into types of content: books; movies; games. Then there are also the allegedly fact books on the subject. AlMac|(talk) 00:00, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Logical ways, to my way of thinking, of dividing the main article into secondary focus areas: AlMac|(talk) 02:57, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Factual Science Physics Math speculation
 * Science Fiction Lists ... Hollywood, Books, Games
 * Time Travel in Science Fiction in a type 2 universe
 * Time Travel involving multiple universes or parallel realities
 * Religion, including Karma

Information Generation
This might not be useful or interesting to anyone, but here goes. I think that time travel is impossible because nothing can be generated from nothing. (SPOILER WARNING FOR THE MOVIE PAYCHECK!) For instance, in the movie Paycheck, the guy sees the future, and packs a bunch of stuff in a bag. It is possible that he knows what to pack, because he saw the future, and he saw the actual contents of the bag. So he doesn't have to go and actually consider what he has to pack in order to counter any of the situations, since he already knows the contents of the bag! (he saw it in the future) This means that it is possible for a personal timeline to exist, in which NO ONE thinks up what should be packed and what should not be packed. This is impossible, because in such a timeline information is simply generated from nothing! It is not imported from another dymention or anything, it is simply generated. Since nothing can be generated from nothing, I think time travel is impossible. Bertus 13:16, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

 * See Predestination paradox. --khaosworks (talk• contribs) 13:26, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

In USING WORMHOLES I believe that Hawking is falsely attributed with claiming that no time machine has been invented yet...I believe he stated that since we are not inundated with travelers from the future, time travel is not possible. Someone should probably check up on that. MTL

Time travel and FTL travel
The general convention with FTL travel in science fiction is that it seems to occur in approximately real time (eg ten hours travel FTL equates to ten hours in the normal run of activity) while time travel involves non-linear movement in time (ie the traveller can move backwards and forwards without consideration of time's arrow).

Any comments on the distinction? Jackiespeel 17:43, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

A lot of the time travel stories we experience are dictated by hollywood and authors trying to give us a good entertaining story. Time in transit, whether space travel or time travel, can often be dictated by how long to show special effects on the screen, not by underlying explanation of the logic of the travel. In some space travel movies, part of the show is the activities of the crew while they are in transit, which can include problems with the suspended animation equipment. I don't recall that time travel novels have devoted much time to the activities of crew of time travel machine while in transit between their departure and destinations. AlMac|(talk) 18:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Time Travel Now Science Fact
University of Connecticut professor Dr. Ronald Mallett had devised a plan to make time travel possible. His "ring of light" employs the use of a mobius of lasers that will allow one to surpass the speed of light. Since the speed of light is the same regardless of the speed of the observer he believes that by creating a mobius of light FTL travel will be possible and is not far from creating this "ring of light". See links listed below for more info. [www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b0af9d439ec.htm]

title: Talk:Time travel/Archive 1


text:
Oslo Central Station

Oslo Central Station (Oslo sentralstasjon, abbreviated Oslo S) is the main railway station in Oslo, and the largest railway station within the entire Norwegian railway system. It connects with Jernbanetorget station, which is served by trams and the Oslo Metro. It's the terminus of Drammen Line, Gardermoen Line, Gjøvik Line, Hoved Line, Østfold Line and Follo Line. It serves express, regional and local rail services by four companies. The railway station is operated by Bane NOR while its real estate subsidiary, Bane NOR Eiendom owns the station, and was opened in 1980.

Oslo Central Station was built on the site of the older Oslo East Station (Oslo Østbanestasjon, Oslo Ø), the combining of the former east and west stations being made possible by the opening of the Oslo Tunnel. Oslo Central Station has 19 tracks, 13 of which have connections through the Oslo Tunnel. The station has two buildings, the original Oslo East building and the newer main building for Oslo Central. Each building houses a large shopping centre. The square in front of the station is called Jernbanetorget.

Two stations
When the first railway line, Hovedbanen, was built between Oslo and Eidsvoll in 1854, the terminus in Oslo was constructed as an ad-hoc solution located at Gamlebyen. Alternate sites included Youngstorget, Grünerløkka and Vaterland Bridge. In 1852 an architectural competition was held, and a plan based on Crown Street Station in Liverpool won. The station was located east of the river Akerselva, but could not serve as a permanent solution, as it was close to neither the city centre nor the port. In 1859 the freight section of the station was expanded with the purchase of land between Loelva and the port, and part of Bjørvika. From the beginning, rail traffic increased, especially after the expansion of the Trunk Line to Hamar in 1862, and the opening of the Kongsvinger Line in 1865.

In 1872 Oslo got its second terminal station, located at Pipervika near Aker Brygge and the city hall. Oslo West Station (or Oslo V) was built to allow the then narrow-gauged Drammen Line between Drammen and Oslo to terminate in downtown Oslo. The two stations were located about 2 km apart and were not connected by rail until 1907 when the Oslo Port Line was built. There had been discussions about building a central station to connect the Drammen Line with the eastern station, but this idea involved building it via Majorstuen and Grefsen. Oslo V always remained a secondary railway station in Oslo, since it mostly served local traffic to Buskerud, Telemark and Vestfold in addition to the Sørland Line.

A new East Line Station
The year after the western station opened, in 1873, the Norwegian legislature, the Storting, decided to build a new railway from Kornsjø at the Swedish border through Østfold to Oslo, the Smaalenene Line (now the Østfold Line). Traffic at the station was expected to explode due to this railway and it was decided that a new station had to be built. The engineers within NSB (now Vy) wanted to locate this new station west of the river Akerselva, between Jernbanetorget and Bjørvika. But a conflict arose between Carl Abraham Pihl, who was director of NSB at the time, and the City of Oslo. While Pihl wanted a separate station for the Smaalenene Line, the city wanted to concentrate the stations in one place in Oslo. The engineers insisted on moving the station closer to the city. The architect Georg Andreas Bull drafted four plans for a new station with nine tracks over the river Akerselva. In 1878 the legislature decided to build the smallest suggested station—with only seven tracks over the river, claiming that the station was oversized. Oslo East Station (Oslo Østbanestasjon, Oslo Ø) opened in 1882.

Committee after committee
But it was soon recognized that the station was too small. The population of Oslo doubled to 150,000 between 1875 and 1890 and from the opening of the station to 1890, the traffic increased from 400,000 passengers annually to more than a million. The most critical part was the freight section, where the trains had to partially use the main railway for switching. One of the proposed solutions was to build the line from Østfold on a viaduct into the station and elevate it on a level above the other tracks. Another problem arose in 1893, when it had to be decided where the new Gjøvik Line was to terminate. Some suggested a station at Grefsen with one line to Oslo East and one via Majorstuen to Oslo West. The Storting decided in 1895 that the Gjøvik Line was to be built to Oslo East.

To start the expansion of the station, the Storting announced a competition in 1896, which was won by Sam Eyde. His plan was to move the freight section away from the passenger sections to Lodalen. The plan was put to the Storting in 1899, and with 70 against 39 votes, the new station was delayed because of the high projected costs. A committee was appointed to look at other possible solutions. The committee split in its final decision, but both factions agreed that a new railway had to be built between the two stations, and proposed a line past the city hall in a tunnel under Akershus Fortress. But again the plan was weakened by the Storting and the only construction to take place was new extensions of the Smaalenene Line and Gjøvik Line and some minor changes to the freight section. The new Oslo Port Line that connected the two stations opened in 1907.

Another committee was created in 1938 to work out plans for a central station. This was the first project to propose a tunnel under the entire city that would branch off from the Drammen Line before Oslo West. The committee proposed two plans, one where all traffic was directed to the new central station and one where the suburban traffic went to Oslo West. It also considered construction of a line north of the city via Grefsen to Oslo East, but this was not recommended. The proposed tunnel below the city was to be 1660 m long. The plan also included a twelve-story building for NSB's administration at the station, which at the time was spread around at 14 different locations in the city. The committee delivered its report on 7 December 1939 to the Norwegian Ministry of Labour.

Wartime and change of plans
In 1940 after the German invasion of Norway in World War II the German puppet government in Norway took over control of transport planning and created the Tøyen Project in 1942. The plan involved dismantling both Oslo V and Oslo Ø and building a new central station at Tøyen. The idea was to convert all suburban transport to diesel buses while trains were to be responsible for long-distance transport. Tram and commuter train services were to be abandoned and the area freed was to be converted to freeways, so it became less important to have the main train stations centrally located in the city. Both the committee and NSB rejected the project. During the war the German forces exploited the railway network and rolling stock, and by the end of the war the entire railway system was worn out.

In 1946 the Planning Office for the Central Station was created, led by Egil Sundt. This committee announced an architecture contest for a new central station, and the Green Light plan by John Engh won. The planning office started construction based on the 1938 committee's work, and expanded the Alnabru Railway Yard in parallel with the new station. The office presented plans which would take 15 years to implement. One of the greatest obstacles was the location of the tunnel under the city. NSB wanted a straight line for quick transport, but complex geological conditions in Oslo, including large areas of clay, prevented this. The plans originally included a station at Oslo City Hall, but a more northerly line was chosen that would be 1802 m long.

Introduced in 1952, shepherding the plans through the Storting proved difficult. In 1959 the plans were again revised and in 1960 a new committee was created, which suggested building a third line between Grefsen and Bestun for freight trains to connect between the eastern and western lines. It also felt that the tunnel should be expanded westward and terminate somewhere between Skarpsno and Skøyen and at the same time close the Oslo Port Line. The new plans were approved by the Storting in 1962.

One station
The new central station was to have the same basic plans as the suggestion that won the contest in 1946, though slightly modified, among other things keeping the old Oslo Ø building. The station was to have 19 tracks, of which 12 were to connect to the Oslo Tunnel. Construction of the new station started in 1979 and in 1980 the Oslo Tunnel could be taken into use. The tunnel got one of the planned stations, Nationaltheatret, while Elisenberg was never built due to lack of funds. Oslo S was taken into use on Sunday, 1 June 1980 and officially opened by King Olav V on Friday, 30 May 1980. Oslo V was closed in 1989, and is now the seat for the Norwegian Nobel Institute.

In 1982, one person was killed when a bomb exploded at the station.

Services
Four railway companies offer a combination of express, regional and commuter train service in addition to the Flytoget (Airport Express Train) service.
 * Express trains are offered to Bergen, Kristiansand, Stavanger and Trondheim in addition to Stockholm in Sweden. Service is provided domestically by Vy using Class 73 units and to Sweden by SJ using loco-hauled Rc6 units as well as X55 "Regina" express trains. Day trains to/from Trondheim run 10 times a day, 8 times a day to/from Stavanger, 4-6 times a day to/from Bergen and trains run nine times times a day to/from Stockholm. Night trains are also operated to the first three cities mentioned.
 * Regional trains are operated to Skien, Lillehammer, Gjøvik, Halden, Karlstad and Gothenburg. Service is provided by Vy with Class 74 units (Skien – Lillehammer), Class 74 units (Halden – Gothenburg) and by Vy Gjøvikbanen with Class 75 units to Gjøvik. The Swedish PTA Värmlandstrafik operated by Vy Tåg, using X53 "Regina" units on the Oslo – Karlstad service.
 * Airport Express Train operates a ten-minute frequency service to Oslo Airport, Gardermoen using Class 71 units. This is the only high speed train service in Norway and is operated by Flytoget.
 * Local trains are operated by Vy and Vy Gjøvikbanen using Class 75, Class 69 and Class 72 units.

Tracks
There are 19 tracks where passengers can board and leave the trains.

The tracks 2–12 have connection to the Oslo Tunnel leading west. All local trains use the tunnel and therefore these tracks. Because of the strict right-hand traffic, in general track 2–7 are used for trains going west, track 7–12 for trains coming from the tunnel going east or south, and tracks 13–19 for trains originating from the station going east or south.

Connections
Oslo S plus Jernbanetorget is Norway's largest transport hub, served by buses, trams and subway.
 * Connection to all five subway lines can be done through Jernbanetorget subway station
 * Trams and some city buses stop outside the station at Jernbanetorget
 * Long-distance bus termini are located 200 metres away at Oslo Bus Terminal

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Oslo Central Station


text: Category:1972 Summer Olympics events

title: Category:1972 Summer Olympics events


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Framo

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Nufy8 17:52, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

James Framo
300 Google hits - guy who offers counseling services, workshops, etc. Could be vanity. lots of issues | leave me a message 09:21, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Even if this is not vanity it is pooly presented DV8 2XL 13:50, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, preferably speedily, as this does not assert notability in any way. Tonywalton | Talk 20:38, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, vanity --J E Bailey 15:42, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
King Ly Chee

King Ly Chee is a hardcore band from Hong Kong.

Music
The band's sound is characterized by hardcore, usually with shouted verses, interspersed with melodic flourishes.

History
King Ly Chee was formed in May 1999 fueled by the fire and passion of a form of music called 9core. In 1999, the music climate of Hong Kong was an unhealthy world of cover bands passing themselves off as "hardcore" or "metal" while belting out tunes by Limp Bizkit. The founder of King Ly Chee, Riz, had enough and one day, he decided that it was time that someone set the record straight on what "hardcore" truly implies. He set off on the mammoth task by releasing a bilingual zine called Start From Scratch that included interviews, essays and CD reviews of world-renowned punk, metal and hardcore bands. As the wheels were turning for Start From Scratch, Riz sat back and realized that words were not enough, kids in Hong Kong needed to hear, feel and see "hardcore" in action to fully absorb the impact. King Ly Chee was the result..

This band has tirelessly continued this mission for over 15 years now through their sheer determination and passion for hardcore, they have taken their sounds, energy and hearts to surrounding Asian countries, and Europe, helping establish the name "King Ly Chee" as a truly Asian band.

In the past 15 years they have let no obstacle come in their way when it comes to touring. With all members knee-deep in full-time day jobs, they jump at any open opportunity they get to perform outside of Hong Kong.

King Ly Chee had opened for the following bands: Sick of it All, Korn, NOFX, Comeback Kid, Terror, Horse the Band, Bane, Have Heart, Envy, Naiad, No Turning Back, Himsa, Rambo, 100 Demons, Reflector, The Bouncing Souls, FC Five, 100 Demons, Die Young TX

In January 2012 King Ly Chee released their third studio album "Time Will Prove". It was 8 years since their second album "Stand Strong" was released. "Time Will Prove" is a double CD digipak that includes all English albums as well as all Chinese album. The album was recorded at their studio by guitarist Brian Wong and it was then sent to the US for Zack Ohren (All Shall Perish, First Blood) to mix and master.

To celebrate their 15th year, King Ly Chee released a new album at the end of August 2014.

In September and October 2015, King Ly Chee went on an Asian tour with Sick of it All, one of their biggest influences. Lou Koller of Sick of it All previously added vocals to the track Lost in a World and even performed with King Ly Chee on stage at one of their concerts in Hong Kong.

Members

 * Former members
 * Riz Farooqi – vocals (1999–2017)
 * Warrick Harniess – bass (1999)
 * Stephane Wong – drums (1999–2001) (formerly of Whence He Came, Charisma) (now in DJ Stef:Funn)
 * Ian Cruz – bass (1999–2000)
 * Alex Chung – vocals, bass (2000–2006) (now in Die in Velvet)
 * Andy Chung – guitar (2001–2006)
 * Fei Hin – drums (2001) (formerly of UNiXX)
 * Kevin Li – drums (2002–2005) (now in Hardpack & LMF)
 * Ming So – drums (2005–2006) (now in Yellow)
 * Pong Law – bass (2005–2008) (formerly of Guan36)
 * G Tsui – vocals (2006–2008) (formerly of Engrave Thy Heart)
 * Kin Man Leung – drums (2006–2009) (formerly of Departing Cross) (Now in Evocation and INDenial)
 * Brian Chi Wong – guitar (2007–2017)
 * Ho Chan – bass (2008–2010, 2013–2017)
 * Egas Mateus Da Silva – drums (2009–2012) (formerly of Unik)
 * Kent Wong – guitar (2009–2012) (formerly of Unik)
 * Joe Wu – guitar (2010–17)
 * Ivan Wing de Souza – drums (2014–2017)

Discography
Studio albums
 * We Are Who We Are (2000)
 * Stand Strong (2003)
 * Under One Flag (2006), with Good Reason
 * Unite Asia (2008), free digitally-released EP
 * Time Will Prove (2012)
 * CNHC (2014)

title: King Ly Chee


text:
Stephen Rogers (politician)

Charles Stephen Rogers (born March 28, 1942) is a former British Columbia politician who served as the member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia (MLA) for the riding of Vancouver South from 1975 to 1991. Rogers ran for the leadership of the British Columbia Social Credit Party in the 1986 leadership race, but lost to Bill Vander Zalm.

Early life and family
Rogers was born in Vancouver, British Columbia, the son of Forrest Rogers and Gwynneth Thomas, and was educated in Vernon and Vancouver. In 1967, Rogers married Margaret Wallace. He married his second wife Valerie Richards in 1991. Stephen has four children—two from both marriages.

Career
Rogers was elected as a Social Credit MLA in Vancouver South in 1975, 1979, 1983 and 1986. His career culminated in serving as Speaker until 1991 when he returned to his career as an airline pilot with Air Canada. He retired from Air Canada in 2002.

Rogers was forced to resign from the position of Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources in 1986 after it was disclosed that he was in a conflict of interest position involving a personal tax shelter investment. He resigned as Minister of Health later that same year just before he was charged with failure to disclose financial holdings as required by law. In 1987, Rogers resigned as Minister of the Environment following conflict of interest allegations related to a change in boundaries for Strathcona Provincial Park.

He ran as the Conservative Party of Canada candidate for the riding of Vancouver Quadra in the 2004 election and again in 2006, losing both times to Liberal Stephen Owen.

Rogers is a lifelong resident of Vancouver.

title: Stephen Rogers (politician)


text:
Talk:20,000 Streets Under the Sky

Bit concerned
Am a bit concerned about the following sentence - "The books are notable in that Patrick Hamilton himself died of liver failure thanks to alcoholism due to his drinking and in fact spent some time infatuated with a prostitute." This implies that the books are only notable because of the biographical similarities between the contents and the life of the author. The books are rather more notable for their literary skill and acute observations. Surely the entry should emphasise this? Jmc29 — Preceding undated comment added 09:22, 1 September 2005

Links
I admittedly don't know how to fix links on here, but would like to point out that although an album entitled 20,000 Streets Under the Sky is listed on the Amazon Editor's top 100 list of 2004, it is by the band Marah. Perhaps the link should be reworked to indicate that the album was named after the novel. Can someone that knows what they're doing fix this? saucybetty — Preceding undated comment added 01:29, 13 February 2006

title: Talk:20,000 Streets Under the Sky


text:
Royston Maldoom

Royston Maldoom,  (born 1943) is a British choreographer whose works, including Adagietto and Ursprung, have been performed for various dance companies, such as The Jefferson Dancers and Dance Theatre of Harlem.

Dance, choreography and community dance
Royston Maldoom's career as a choreographer began in 1972 when he received a major Gulbenkian Foundation award for his work in a Royal Ballet workshop, he had previously been studying dance with Hilde Holger. Since then he has created works for companies in Britain and abroad, including Dance Theatre of Harlem (New York), 'Atlanta Contemporary Dance Company' (Georgia USA), 'Ballet San Marcos' (Peru), 'Northern Ballet Theatre' (Manchester UK), 'EMMA Dance Company' (Leicestershire UK), Scottish Ballet (Glasgow UK) for whom, in collaboration with Graham Bowers, he created 'Ursprung'.

In 1975 his small group, 'Mercury Dance Company', won first prize at the 7th International Choreographic Competition at Bagnolet in Paris, and was subsequently awarded the 'Foundation of France' prize for choreographer and company.

Maldoom was appointed 'Dance Artist in Residence' jointly by Fife and Tayside Regional Councils in January 1981. The year's residency with financial support from the Scottish Arts Council, was the first of its kind to cover an area rather than a single institution, and through his unique and unconventional approach to dance successfully encouraged participation and interest in dance within communities, with performance workshops and classes, on a scale not seen before.

He was responsible with others in forming Dundee Repertory Dance Theatre and in his role as Artistic Director, established a solid, successful and ongoing base for professional contemporary dance in Scotland. He also maintained his commitment to community dance by setting up annual summer projects, where people within the community regardless of age and experience, could participate in a work that culminated in a performance to commissioned music and stage design at a professional venue. One such work was ‘Bivouac’ where Gordon McPherson wrote the musical score and Graham Bowers designed the costumes and stage set. The company was renamed several years later and adopted the name Scottish Dance Theatre, after the closure of Peter Royston's original company of the same name.

In a projects with the Berlin Philharmonic in the first season of Simon Rattle as chief conductor, he trained 250 children from public schools Stravinsky's Le Sacre du printemps. It was performed in January 2003, and documented in Rhythm Is It!.

He also came to NYC in 2007 and worked with four inner city schools to reproduce the Rite of Spring dance with the Berlin Philharmonic. (Twelve students from PS 161 in West Harlem as well as two Harlem high schools & six students from an elementary school were the dance performers.)

Dance United
In 1996, Dance United founders Andrew Coggins, Mags Byrne and Royston Maldoom, together with the Ethiopian Gemini Trust, created a unique dance project in Addis Ababa with street children which led to the foundation of the Adugna Community Dance Theatre Company. In 2000, Dance United was officially established.

Trained intensively over many years in Addis Ababa by dance artists from all over the world, eighteen young Ethiopian dancers graduated in 2002 with accreditation from Middlesex University (UK). In 2004, Junaid Jemal Sendi won the international Rolex Young Choreographer award, the first ever African artist to win this prestigious accolade. Junaid and fellow Adugna dancer, Addisu Demissie, also played key roles in Dance United's DESTINO at Sadler's Wells in 2009.

title: Royston Maldoom


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CPIF

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 * Check Point Integrity Flex
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Guardian's Crusade

Guardian's Crusade, known in Japan as Knight & Baby (ナイト&ベイビー), is a role-playing video game developed by Tamsoft and released for the PlayStation in 1998. The gameplay is that of a standard turn based role playing game with non-random encounters. While intended for an adult audience as well, the game was something of an introduction to RPGs for children. The game did not enjoy commercial success.

Plot
The young man Knight lives with his fairy friend Nehani in the town of Orgo. The Mayor of Orgo gives Knight a task of taking a letter to the nearby town of San Claria. During his return journey, Knight is gifted the creature named Baby in a blinding flash of light. A mysterious voice tells the boy to take this Baby to the God's Tower, his home. Knight takes the creature to the mayor who tells him to dispose of it in a local cave. Later, Knight has remorse for abandoning the infant, and decides to rescue him and deliver him to God's Tower. After a harrowing escape from monsters in the cave, the trio head out toward God's Tower. They eventually meet a man named Darkbeat, and his sister Ibkee. Ibkee has been cursed by a man named Karmine, and Darkbeat has been seeking him for vengeance.

Furthering their adventure with a water-bug named Chester, the group eventually meets a knight named Kalkanor, his sorceress companion Ramal and a mysterious wizard, Gwinladin. Kalkanor believes he is on a divine mission to defeat several evil monsters, he and Knight cross paths many times assisting one another. Knight also meets the mysterious Artemia Cult, who revel in manipulating the populace. Eventually, the group arrives at God's Tower, where they encounter a man named Karmine. Karmine is revealed to be the leader of the Artemia Cult, and is planning to resurrect the evil god Xizan. Kalkanor arrives, and Gwinladin reveals he has been working for Karmine the whole time. Karmine had manipulated Kalkanor into killing the Divine Beasts to weaken the seal on Xizan. Karmine betrays Gwinladin and transforms him into a dragon before beginning his ascent of the tower. Kalkanor is not strong enough to defeat it, thus it falls to Knight. After the battle, Kalkanor asks Knight to face Karmine and save the world. Knight and Baby begin to climb the tower. Upon arriving at the top, they meet Karmine as well as Darkbeat and Ibkee. Karmine had just finished killing the final beast, Baby's mother. Darkbeat attempts to fight Karmine, but he is too powerful. Karmine faces off against Knight, intent on killing Baby and summoning Xizan. Killing Baby, Karmine receives a crystal and summons Xizan. Knight battles Karmine and wins. Celestia, Baby's mother revives Baby and the God's Tower begins to collapse. Baby has Knight ride him and Baby begins to fly from the Tower. In a flash of light the group is blown off course.

Awakening in Picard, the group meet Darkbeat and Ibkee again. They are told of a legendary warrior who will do battle with Xizan. Knight is given the location of several pieces of legendary armor. Upon retrieval, Knight is told that he is the legendary hero, and he faces off against Darwin the ancient legendary hero. Upon his victory Knight is blessed with the legendary armor and the power to defeat Xizan. The group head for the final confrontation. However they are accosted by Karmine once again. However he is distracted by Darkbeat, who successfully seeks his vengeance.

Xizan towers over the group, but after a fierce battle, Baby begins to reseal Xizan. However, Xizan uses a powerful attack that severely weakens the group. Nehani confesses her love for Knight before sacrificing herself to weaken Xizan. Attacking his weakened form, the duo are able to defeat Xizan. Afterwards, Nehani has been revived as a normal person. She and Knight settle down in Orgo with Baby. The game ends with a sepia tone picture of the three of them, happy.

Gameplay
From a technical standpoint and in terms of its contribution to the development of the RPG genre, Guardian's Crusade is noteworthy for several reasons.

First, the game featured a seamless graphical transition between the overworld, towns, and flight, which all utilized the same graphical engine and scale. Many other RPGs before and since have relied on miniature, less detailed representations of towns when a player is exploring the overworld (e.g. the Final Fantasy games on the original PlayStation) or flying (e.g. Dragon Quest VIII). This feature helped to make the Guardian's Crusade world more immersive and is an impressive accomplishment given the technical limitations of the PlayStation console.

Second, the game implemented a system that allowed players to choose whether or not to engage in battles. Enemies on the overworld and in dungeons were represented by different sized ghosts which would wander the landscape and chase after the player, but could be avoided through speed or stealth. Large aggressive pink ghosts represented enemy monsters with higher levels than the player. Enemies at a lower level were represented by smaller white ghosts that would actually flee from the player. This mechanic provided a visual indicator of how powerful the player character was becoming.

Finally, the game incorporated a virtual pet.

Living Toys
Along the way, Knight encounters Living Toys (abbreviated LT on the battle menu), mystical clockwork toys that can move on their own and aid Knight, Baby, and Nehani in battle with certain skills. Living Toys can be found in treasure chests around the world. Each has its own unique moves or abilities.

Summoning a Living Toy drains Knight's psychic points (PP), so once his PP is drained completely he can't summon them at all.

Classification of Living Toys
Living Toys can be classified according to their functions:

Attackers – Directly inflict damage upon an enemy in combat.

Helpers – Add extra power to your attacks, put the enemy to sleep, or help you defend against certain attacks.

Healers – Restore lost HP to one or more party members.

Miscellaneous – Are either useful outside of combat (like Mapster, who allows you to view the world map while outdoors in addition to attacking enemies in combat) or simply don't fit into another category.

Living Toy Icons
Each Living Toy is associated with one of three icons depending on how it is summoned in combat:

Continuous (boxes) – Will stay by your side until the battle ends or it gets attacked enough times. Multiple use (↵) – Can be used multiple times in the same battle but must be re-summoned each time. Single use (*) – Can only be used once per battle.

Development
Guardian's Crusade was developed by Tamsoft and was originally released in Japan on September 23, 1998, under the title Knight and Baby. The game was picked up for publication outside Japan by Activision shortly after its launch. Originally titled Guardian Legends, the localized version was eventually changed to Guardian's Crusade because of a similarly named game published by Brøderbund.

According to the game's producer and associate producer, very few changes were made between the Japanese and North American versions of the game. These differences are mostly found in the intro and title screens, including different music for the opening cinema. The creators took particular pride in the game's Japanese writing and its transition to its English counterpart. "When games are generally translated, the feeling and true meaning of the text in its original form gets lost very easily. We did not want that to happen in Guardian's Crusade," explained the producers. "The original spirit of the story and the humor was kept intact, and since this is not something that is easy to achieve, we are very proud of this accomplishment."

Reception
The game received favorable reviews according to the review aggregation website GameRankings. Next Generation said, "Considering the competition from more well-known RPG brand names, Activision has done a fine job with Guardian's Crusade by giving the title charm and polish." In Japan, Famitsu gave it a score of 27 out of 40.

title: Guardian's Crusade


text:
Talk:Simon Gray

Writing
Why on earth should someone take out the sentence "He has a penchant for writing showy lead roles for middle-aged males"? This is a major part of Gray's dramaturgy and knowledge of it adds to a full picture of what to expect from a Gray play for the reader of the article. I am putting it back in, perhaps more subtley worded. But it is non-point of view, and the removal of it unhelpful. Jmc29

What is wrong with "showy" as a descriptive adjective? The parts Gray writes for actors are designed as star vehicles, showing off the star in a display of wit, verbal dexterity and emotional range: thus, they are "showy". Jmc29

What an interesting man. A reading of his obits which I've provided (he died today) fills in what the article lacks. JohnClarknew (talk) 05:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The sentence needs to be followed by a source documenting it. Until it is followed by a source citation, it appears to be original research. Please document the sentence with a reliable third-party published source. Thanks. --NYScholar (talk) 00:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Death
He was an alcoholic and a very heavy smoker from childhood to death; I believe these facts should be included in this article, especially considering the very strong likelihood that his smoking caused his death. There are differing reports regarding his cancer and death. Did he have lung cancer, prostate cancer or both? Which one did he die of, or did both cause his death? Did he die on 6 August or 7 August? Where did he die? Could someone please prove the facts of these important points? If so please add to (and if necessary correct) the article accordingly. The German Wikipedia article on him states he died of lung cancer in London on 6 August, a day earlier than the English one claims.Werdnawerdna (talk) 10:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The obits seem to disagree on the actual date of his death. I'll have more of a look for info. I think we should avoid using biographies as cautionary tales - I don't think that dying at the age of 71 is going to be much of a deterrent to those young and impressionable enough to be influenced by it, anyway. Possibly the reverse - look kids! you can smoke 60 a day, and drink scotch and champagne, and you'll still live past 70!Masmit (talk) 00:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I've now found two references in the obits to the death being on Wednesday, so it seems to me that the 6th is the better guess. I've amended the intro to that effect. I've also added the Financial Times obit to the external links. Masmit (talk) 01:14, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The article now states he died of an aortic aneurysm, though most media sources state lung cancer. He is still in the lung cancer deaths category. On the edit history two people mention his death certificate: what does that actually say? The article should mention his smoking, especially considering it was such a major part of his life and work. He was also an alcoholic; that should not be ignored. From media reports, he had prostate cancer for years, though it did not cause his death. He later contracted lung cancer, which we can be 99% certain was caused by him chain-smoking for over half a century. An encyclopedia must not ignore, deny, or gloss over the facts. There is still 'smoking has nothing to do with cancer' propaganda, we don't want to assist those who push such nonsense!Werdnawerdna (talk) 22:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The correct date of death is in fact 7th August 2008, as reported by Michael Billington in his Theatre Blog on the Guardian website. This is also what is written on his death certificate. The obituaries were largely wrong on this, and a number of other details.Ywain (talk) 12:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Later sources have corrected the date of death as 6 August 2008; there is a feedback loop in some sources occurring in the references to 7 August. The above post gives no source to support the statement "This is also what is written on his death certificate."
 * (cont.) Gray suffered from prostate cancer also, and I've added that to the text, with sources. I've added a section for "Further reading," which contains several additional sources. --NYScholar (talk) 00:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

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SCOTTISH HERITAGE.
Simon Gray was the son o a Scottish GP, turned pathologist. Source: Simon Gray's internet page. Please remove this item when source is verified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.169.143 (talk) 19:57, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

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Kericho

Kericho is the biggest town in Kericho County, located in the highlands west of the Kenyan Rift Valley. Positioned on the edge of the Mau Forest, Kericho benefits from a warm and temperate climate, making it for agriculture, especially large scale tea cultivation.

The town is strategically located along Kenya's western tourism circuit with access to Lake Victoria, the Maasai Mara National Reserve and Ruma National Park.

Population

As of the 1999 census, the town has a population of 150,000. Kericho is the home town of the Kipsigis, a subgroup of the Kalenjin people.

Etymology
The etymology of Kericho is uncertain. One theory suggests it that it was named after the region's first hospital, built by the colonial British at the start of the 20th century, referencing the Kipsigis word, for medicine. Another theory proposes the name derives from a local medicine man called Kipkerich or from a Maasai chief, Ole Kericho who was killed in the 18th century by the Abagusii.

History
Kericho was founded by British settlers in 1902. It hosts Africa's largest Sikh Gurudwara and the second largest Catholic cathedral in Kenya.

The Gurdwara Sahib, built on the site of the home and workshop of Kericho Wagon Works founder Sant Baba Puran Singh Ji of Kericho, is now a place of worship for the Sikh community and a museum gazetted by the Government of Kenya as a place of spiritual significance.

It is dedicated to the memory of Sant Baba Puran Singh Ji, founder of the international charitable organization, Guru Nanak Nishkam Sewak Jatha which promotes the spirit and practice of selfless service ("nishkam sewa") in the name of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, the founder of the Sikh faith. Chandarana Records a pioneer of Benga music and the Kenyan music recording industry is based in Kericho town.

Sports

Kericho is known for producing Olympic-winning long-distance athletes and hosts Zoo Kericho F.C. a football club competing in the Kenyan Premier League and Kericho R.F.C. competing in the Nationwide League.

Points of Interest

Key attractions include Chagaik Arboretum, Chelimo Arboretum, Tagabi Arboretum, Uhuru Garden and the vast scenic tea estates.

Geography
Kericho is reputed to hold the record for the highest number of hail occurrences in a year, either at 132 days with hail or 113 days in 1965. Kericho has up to 50 days of hail each year, but large hail is rare.

Government
Kericho town is the administrative headquarters of Kericho county, which consists up of six constituencies/sub-counties: Bureti, Belgut, Ainamoi, Soin/ Sigowet, Kipkelion East, and Kipkelion West.

Transport
Kericho is accessible by road through the B1 road (Kenya) that links Mau-Summit, Kericho to Kisumu and Busia. In addition, the C25 Kapsoit-Sondu road connects Kericho to the A1 road linking Isebania to Lokichoggio through Kisumu and Kitale.

The Nakuru-Kisumu railway line passes through Kericho County with railway stations at Mau Summit, Londiani, Kedowa, Lumbwa, Kipkelion and Fort Ternan. Fort Ternan was previously used as a halfway point for passenger and goods trains between Nakuru and Kisumu.

Private airstrips operated by tea estates are used primarily for crop spraying.

Communication and media
Kericho town has access to high-speed fiber-optic Internet connection, fixed line, and mobile telecommunications.

Local FM radio stations including Kass FM, Chamgei FM, KBC Kitwek FM, Radio Injili, Sayare Radio, Light and Life FM, Sema Radio and The Just FM.

Tertiary education
Kericho hosts several educational institutions offering certificate, diploma and degree courses, including:

 * University of Kabianga
 * Kenya Highlands Evangelical University run by the Africa Gospel Church
 * Kenyatta University
 * The University of Nairobi
 * Kericho Teachers Training College offers degree courses under agreement with Moi University
 * Eland College run jointly by Kabarak University and Eland Schools
 * Mospen Institute of Development Studies(MIDS)
 * African Institute of Research and Development Studies (AIRADS)
 * Nishkam Saint Puran Singh Institute (NSPSI)
 * Kericho Technical Institute
 * Kericho School of Professional Studies
 * Kenya Institute of Management
 * Rift Valley Institute of Business Studies
 * Kenya Medical Training College

Secondary education
Kericho is home to: 1.Litein High School, 2.Taita Towett Boys High School, 3.Kipkelion Girls High school, 4.Kapsoit high school, 5.Kabianga Boys High School, 6.Kericho High school, 7.Moi Tea Secondary, 8.Kipsigis Girls High School, 9.Cheptenye Boys High School, 10.Kericho Tea Boys, 11.Tengecha schools 12. Moi Sitotwet 13. Getumbe Secondary school 14. Poiywek Secondary School 15. Kericho Day Secondary school 16. Kipchimchim Secondary school 17. Kaptebeswet secondary school 18. Kabianga Girls High School and others

Religion
Kericho is home to followers of the Africa Gospel Church, Full Gospel Church, Seventh-day Adventists, Catholics, Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, African Inland Church, Jehovah's Witnesses and Anglicans.

Notable people

 * Dr. Taitta Toweett, gave name to Taita Towett High School.
 * Joseph Cheruiyot arap Chewen
 * Joginder Singh
 * Hannington Apudo, the first indigenous military pilot in the Kenya Air Force.
 * Wilson Kiprugut
 * Moses Kiprono arap Keino
 * Joyce Chepchumba
 * Edwin Soi
 * Kipngeno arap Ng'eny
 * David Kimutai Too
 * Ayub Kiprotich Siele, the longest serving mayor of Kericho.

title: Kericho


text:
Talk:Caringbah

Page move
This page was moved from "Caringbah" to "Caringbah, New South Wales" as per the naming convention set out at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places) – Ianblair23 09:28, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Updated facts
Made some changes to the facts regarding nearby suburbs backed up by the Geographical Names Board website.J Bar 04:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Caringbah


text:
User:Segv11

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