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User talk:Mel Etitis/Archive 22

Please do not specify wrong name
Hello Mel,

I saw your current edit on rohingya article page about free rohingya campaign web site name. Please make sure learn the website title. I again request you to mention correct name.

It is called Free Rohingya Campaign (International). It is designed base on blog but not the website title.

thanks --Arakan 10:40, 11 August 2005 (UTC) Dear Mel,

Thank you very much for your message.

Can you please leave it as i edit now .. I hope it won't effect their organization name. i hope it would be ok soon. regards, --Arakan 11:01, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't entirely understand you, but the point is that the site is a weblog; why do you insist on removing that description? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:51, 11 August 2005 (UTC) Dear Mel; you can't just simply say it is webblog look at the domain name. ok?? as i told you before it was base on blogger. that's all ! let me ask you something?? why do you want to make misunderstand to wiki visitor. i think it is a kind of abusing their organization website name title. So; i'm earnestly requesting not to mentioned that blog etc.. ok?? thanks, --Arakan 14:47, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Arakan"

3RR at Rohingya
Mel, just wanted to notify that has violated the 3RR by reverting the blog link 4 times. Thanks. --Ragib 15:44, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Mel, how are sockpuppet assisted 3RR violations handled? is most likely a sockpuppet of . And he's been going on reverting the blog link again. --Ragib 17:36, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

 * ragib, don't think that you are very very good behaviour in wiki . we all knows that you are trouble maker in wiki . you must change your usage and don't try to create the problem everytime.

--Bobjack 08:37, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Abandoned outline?
I keep finding little jobs for you. How are you holding up with the stress of your high calling? Some chunks of your talk page are the stuff of nervous breakdowns.

Theology/temp This four month old article is just an outline with no ongoing activity by the creating editor -- it seems to have been created as a result of a discussion on the Theology talk page. Perhaps it's a candidate for deletion if no action is taken soon?

Thanks for your help. WBardwin 15:55, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

3RR violations== ==

hello --Ragib --Mel Etitis Please do not revert articles more than 3 times per 24 hours. Also using sockpuppets to do that counts. Thanks. --Eddiewiki 17:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Func's RfA :)
Mel, I wanted to thank you for supporting my adminship, thank you very much! :)

It's fortunate for me that certain prerequisites for adminship are sometimes optional. :)

Please never hesitate to let me know if you have concerns with any administrative action I may make.

Func( t, c, e, ) 19:00, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Re: Talk:Apology (Plato)
What happened on Category_talk:Dialogues_of_Plato? I asked you to clarify two things: While someone else did eventually give some answers to this, I never heard from you. So, I still don't understand what your "reasons given before." are, now. Please respond. Thanks! JesseW 21:26, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) State the standard that the article titles (before the "proposed moves") followed, or state that they did not follow such a standard.
 * 2) Further explain your objection that the "propsed moves" "prejudge" what articles may conflict with articles on characters.

Looking things over, I understand...
I've been reviewing some of your contributions to fixing the Mariah Carey single pages, and though I don't agree with some of the edits, removals, and naming conventions, I can understand your position in this regard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Musiclover (talk • contribs) 02:46, 12 August 2005

thanks
Hello MEl,

Contribution to wikipedia is great work. i really appeciate it. There should be fair and balance while you judge or edit one's aritcle. --Bobjack 08:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

It took me a while, for some reason
To peel this nectraine. Thanks for listening, Mel! El_C 08:54, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I just wanted attention. :(

Recent disruptive edits and childish messages
Either one person using multiple accounts or more than one person with the same standard and style of English and making the same edits, has been disrupting this article, its Talk page, and the Talk pages of Ragib and myself. If this doesn't stop, some or all of the accounts will be blocked from editing.

If anyone has a genuine and specific complaint about the article, would they explain it here, clearly, simply, and factually, without emotional ranting and bluster? Only then can we start the process of collaboration. Simply reverting the article without explanation, especially when that involves no more than revrtign improvements in line with the Manual of style, is not acceptable. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 09:51, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
 * mel, the explainations are more than enough for you,look at the messages above. so,you may not need to repeat again and again for blocking user.we knows you can do it as admin. beside, all the reader can be justify whether you are right or wrong.--Bobjack 10:35, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Do not Vandalism article
Mel, you are contionusly vandal the article. Such Violaton shall be stop. please keep wiki standard updated .violations would not be accepted by any reader of wikipedia. go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism. Thanks,--Bobjack 13:59, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Rohingya
Hi. Let's work together and help user:Ragib write about the Rohingya people in peace. I think we can also accommodate the POV of the Free Rohingya Campaign (FRC). But they don't have to create multiple accounts to evade 3RR. Uncle Ed 15:40, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

vandal
Mel, would you look at and look into blocking them? They are taking up a lot of my time. --goethean ॐ 19:15, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

impostor
I'm sure you are not the person blanking pages, but I can't quite figure out the difference in user names between you User:Mel_Etitis and the imitator User:Μel_Etitis. If I've egregiously blocked the wrong one, please undo-it-yourself. Perhaps some difference in the underscore or something? - Nunh-huh 02:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Gropecunt Lane
It is pretty obviously not a faked photograph (happy to send the original if you want, at least five years old), it was put on a wall of a courtyard of a pub in London, in the City or the financial district I believe. It is no longer a street, as the article clearly indicates (I wrote it), but the sign indicates that it was. The Guardian has discussed the renaming which might happen. Coqsportif 10:54, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Could you please give consideration to explaining why you are proposing the deletion of the Gropecunt Lane image. It is not fake, merely nostalgic. Coqsportif 08:20, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Australia's East Timor Cover Up
Hi Mel, how are things going? Could I ask very nice for you to have a look at the above page? I would be very interested in knowing what you think about (1) the article name, (2) the contents, and (3) the suitability for Wikipedia. I have thought about trying to fix it, but it is probably a lost cause. Lao Wai 12:06, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Editing Closed RFA's
Hello, I saw you editing Requests_for_adminship/FeloniousMonk. This RFA has been concluded, and you were editing votes and modifying totals. While your motivation was innocent, and it certainly looks tidier, I have reverted you, because it isn't the version the bureaucrat took the descision on. Please don't change it again. Kim Bruning 16:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry. I can't make an exception for you. Kim Bruning 18:53, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I have removed the 24 hour block that Kim Bruning placed for "tampering in the RFA records". I don't know how changing (correcting) neutral votes could be seen as deserving a 24 hour block. Carbonite | Talk 19:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It is very hard to discern innocious changes from malevolent ones, even for the editor making them! So if you want to add a comment, or point out error, put it at the end, clearly marked as being added later. (discussion continued at User talk:Carbonite)Kim Bruning 19:19, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Regarding your comments in the Mega Man X Collection VFD
I was under the impression that future objects, like books/albums/games/movies/etc., as opposed to future events, which generally can only be scpeculated about, weren't crystal-ballery per WP:NOT, because verifiable things can be said about them. As for notability, it might be worth going to WP:CVG and starting a dialogue about notability criteria for games; right now, any published game is being considered notable, and, personally, I've been voting according to that standard. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 17:55, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

-Ril-'s RFC
Just a quick not to let you know that you neglected to sign your certification of the RFC concerning -Ril-. Tomer TALK 10:15, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm here to serve. :-) Tomer TALK 19:20, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Madonna, removed white space

 * I spent time removing the white space from Madonna's article. You killed it and added the "Queen of Pop" comment. Is there a particular reason why? Kim Nevelsteen 15:32, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I changed the layout again, perhaps this one is more appealing? Kim Nevelsteen 18:11, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I was attempting to reduce the huge amount of white space the article had. If you remove the spacing the text will be too bunched up. I know the spacing is a jimmy rig but the command or something like that would clear the floating TOC as well, which is not what I wanted. I leave it up to you. Sorry, don't find the current layout better. :( Kim Nevelsteen 19:11, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
 * no, I am quite sure it is the layout since it was the gap between the picture and the TOC is the result of trying to get the Biography to start under the picture. (both Firefox and IE look the same on my machine) I think it is a question of preference. Up to you... Kim Nevelsteen 19:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

BaronLarf's RFA
Thanks for supporting me in my RFA last week. You're one of the helpful admins that I've looked up to in the past couple of months, and I appreciate you continuing help. Let me know if I can be of assistance or if you have concerns about my use of the admin tools. Cheers. --BaronLarf 20:51, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Regine Velasquez
Μελετητης, I always use the serial, Harvard, or Oxford comma, and let me tell you, any serial commas in this fluff article were probably due to my edits!

As for the relative position of commas and quotes in relation to non-quoted material, I've seen no style guide on this issue in the Wikipedia space. The style guide specifies relative positions for quote-marked quotations, and as most of the comma-quoting changes I made were for song titles, not quotations, the guide does not apply. Or rather, it does, as I consider all song titles to imply full stops.

I am certain you would agree with me when I state that a large part of the movement in this article towards Wikipedia style in the last several days has been due to my efforts. If I missed changing the Regines to Velasquezes, it was solely because I was concentrating on correcting more egregious flaws in the article.

→ (AllanBz ✎) 22:58, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks! It's really hot where I am, and I apologize if I responded too hotly myself. While I disagree on the relative placement of commas and quotes for titles, there are many more things in the article that need to be addressed before that particular issue becomes noteworthy. → (AllanBz ✎) 23:40, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Michael Jackson
Hi Mel, I have been copyediting a number of articles, and apparently, you do not seem to agree with many of my efforts. I would appreciate if you can give me one or two examples in the Michael Jackson article so that I do not waste my efforts and repeat the same mistakes. PM Poon 05:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Born To Make You Happy
I think Triggy is correct because "BTMYH" was actually released in December 1999 for Europe (its peak of success was, however, in Janurary 2000) and "FTBOMBH" was released in January 2000 for the US market and others, primarily because the US market is slow moving and "Crazy" was still popular there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ultimate Star Wars Freak (talk • contribs) 10:26, 15 August 2005

Michael Jackson
Thank you very much, Mel, for your prompt response to my query.

It is not true that I removed the “copyedit” template, without doing anything to the copy-edit article. I went through the article, and except for omissions of commas and minor typos, I did not find anything wrong. And the reason why I did not find anything wrong may probably be because "my English would have to improve considerably", LOL.

I did also review the history section of the article to see when the copy-edit tag was placed there. And when I saw that many contributors had already copyedited the article (thus, explaining why I couldn't see any mistake) and the tag was still there, I took it off. The decision to remove the tag was not due to my contribution alone, but to what I thought, was a collective contribution, LOL.

As for placing punctuation inside quotation marks, that was what I learned in American English grammar, but after you alert me to it, I do see now that Wikipedia has its own MoS. I must admit that I did not read the MoS thoroughly before I start copyediting, and this is my greatest mistake.

Yes, Mel, I agree with you that I ought to stop “copy-editing” and add content instead. I really appreciate your advice very much. Seems like my time with Wikipedia these last two weeks, instead of being a positive contribution, looks more like vandalism, LOL. PM Poon 10:50, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Captain Marvel (DC Comics)
As far as I know, it's customary comic book usage to use the numeral symbol instead of the "no." --FuriousFreddy 11:59, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Many Thanks
Thanks for supporting my RFA. It couldn't have happened without your effort. FeloniousMonk 16:54, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Born to Make You Happy== ==

The reason I edited the chronology to that form is because "Born to Make You Happy" and "From the Bottom of My Broken Heart" were both released more-or-less at the same time, but in different parts of the world. My edit makes more sense, whether you agree with it or not. Triggy 18:17, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Mariah Carey
i'm a mariah carey fan since 1995 and collecting her remixes since 1999. I have a list with her official remixes as well as the way the remixes are written. I've been trying to correct Mariah's official remixes list because I have seen the backcovers of almost every single and or maxi. Sadly, each time I modify them so that they are correctly written, they keep coming back to their original state, meaning with mistakes. i just wanted to know why.

thank you jennifer (aka mczelda) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mczelda (talk • contribs) 22:40, 15 August 2005

Sort Categories
Hello, could you please sort your categories – "Atheist Wikipedians", "Wikipedians in Oxfordshire" and "Consequentialist Wikipedians" – on your user page, so that your user name is properly sorted in these categories. I would have done it myself but your user page is protected. Thankyou. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 05:05, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter if you user name is real or not, category sorting just sorts names alphabetically, so that in these categories your name is categorised under "M" instead of "U" (for User:Name). – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 08:16, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Pattern of AOL related blocks.
Hate to bug you, Mel, but I would appreciate a favor if you are available in the next few hours. I am hit by blocks directed at other users due to the fact that AOL customes get randomly assigned common IP numbers. Blocks have hit me twice today (info below). Please see my user page User:WBardwin/AOL Block Collection for the history of this ongoing situation. If you would please release the block, I have a few small edits I would like to make before work tomorrow. Thanks. WBardwin 05:06, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Your user name or IP address has been blocked by Curps.

The reason given is this: Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Aesculapius75". The reason given for Aesculapius75's block is: "pagemove vandalism".

You can email Curps or one of the other administrators to discuss the block. You may also edit your user talk page if you wish. If you believe that our blocking policy was violated, you may discuss the block publicly on the WikiEN-l mailing list. Note that you may not use the "email this user" feature unless you have a Wikipedia account and a valid email address registered in your user preferences.

Your IP address is 207.200.116.138.

 * Why I am "targeted" so often is an AOL mystery to me, altogether. As for a school -- I do live within 10 blocks of a technical college and within 10 miles of a university.  Both with lots of bored students up much too late, I suppose.  Thanks for your interest, Mel.  WBardwin 16:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Gropecunt Lane
Please do not delete the image pending its consideration for deletion by reason of the fact that you will make the image an orphan (itself a reason for deletion). I'm sure you'd agree in those circumstances such an action could be seen as not consistent with the highest standards. Coqsportif 10:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I repeat my concern that removing it from the article is in fact the only reason for deleting it. Those calling for its deletion are people with whom I have had quite unrelated conflicts over other articles, which entitles us to examine the motivation behind their view. In any event, there are rules governing the deletion of images and I cannot see how the image could properly be deleted. It is only the action of orphaning of the image that might have that effect. I implore you to consider the propriety of orphaning the image in those circumstances and to leave it in place until a decision is independently and properly made. Coqsportif 11:10, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

You nominated the image for deletion on the grounds it was fake. An allegation easily disproved as I have the original photograph and scanned it. I will happily post the original to anyone in authority at Wikipedia to resolve the issue in terms of the evidence.

Was that not the reason you proposed its deletion?

In any event, my argument is that it is not consistent with high standards to orphan the image for the purposes of procuring its deletion on those grounds. I will leave the matter for you to consider. Coqsportif 11:27, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I have asked you to reflect on the propriety of proposing an image for deletion on one grounds, then orphaning it so that it would be deleted for being orphaned. I urge you to consider it carefully. I can do no more than that. Coqsportif 11:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Welsh rarebit
The welsh rarebit/rabbit quotes no primary sources for its information. Regardless of whether it is correct, the modern term for this dish is welsh *rarebit* and this has been the case for at the very least well in excess of a century and so, while if in the past it was called "welsh rabbit" it may have been a confusing name, it no longer is so, since it is no longer called "welsh rabbit", so it doesn't belong on the page.

Arguably in the past there was a recipe called welsh rabbit. There isn't one any more. It thus would only be suitable for a page called "names of foods that confused people in the 18th century".

If I seem pedantic about something so unimportant as cheese on toast, I apologise. If wikipedia is to ever be considered reliable, it should be correct in detail IMV. If welsh rabbit is to remain, which I would disagree with, there should at least be a note clarifying that the normal spelling is "rarebit", derived from "rabbit", IMV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.159.117.56 (talk • contribs) 18:28, 16 August 2005

 * "Welsh rarebit" is an 18th-century "fanciful coinage"; the original, correct, and still very commonly-used name is "Welsh rabbit". It's true that for various reasons (including misplaced political correctness) "Welsh rarebit" has also become very popular, and possibly even more popular (at least in print; in common usage I'm not so sure), but the List of misleading food names doesn't depend upon the relative popularity of different forms. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 17:49, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Ontology and methodology of evolutionary alternatives
You might want to weigh in on this early: Votes for deletion/Ontology and methodology of evolutionary alternatives --goethean ॐ 20:04, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense pages
I've so far had to delete three pages that you've created in the main article space, all consisting of copies of User talk pages under silly names. Please stop this; it's vandalism, and could lead to you being blocked from editing. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 20:33, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * sorry about that, as you'll see if you look through my edit history, those were failed attempts at parsing, not intentional vandalism, they were supposed to turn into 'level 2 headers' on my talk page, not their own articles--I-2-d2 20:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Parachutes
You should look at some of the style conventions found on other album articles... and most importantlyWikiproject Albums. I've been a longtime contributor to albums, singles and EP listings, so I think I know what I'm doing...

FYI:
 * Track length is presnted comme "XX min XX secs", i.e., Scissor Sisters, Monster (album)', Computer World'''
 * The release and recording dates wikify the day, month, and year indicated, i.e., Hail_to_the_Thief, Revolver, The Wall, etc.
 * "Catalog" should be used, not "Catalogue"; this is a British album and should follow British spelling conventions
 * It's "Life Is For Living", not "Life Is for Living",,.
 * Album and singles positions are always generally presented in numeral form (i.e, #53), and not spelt out in full; especially when it is lower than a Top 10 position. For example, Don't Believe the Truth, In_Your_Honor, Krafty, etc.
 * And about POV comments... I'm curious as to why "modest" was removed from the description of the Billboard 200 position, yet in many articles including From the Bottom of My Broken Heart" (which your recently edited), you overlooked the fact that it mentioned the song had a "weak" chart position and comments like "a flop for Spears in a country where her singles generally make at least top-twenty placement".

Just some food for thought. I would be very careful of accusing someone of vandalism, especially when I had been following the WikiAlbums conventions in the first place. At the very least, I'm sorry if I didn't warn you about your changes beforehand. Cheers. --Madchester 00:39, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

If you have problems with the current Wikiproject Albums] criteria, plz address them there before making unilateral edits on numerous album articles. Thank you. --Madchester 14:11, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

 * Since there are many music-exclusive/oriented editors on Wikipedia, it's best that you discuss your actions on the Wikiproject Albums discussion before carrying out your personal MoS edit project. Otherwise your actions will be seen in bad faith by other Wikipedia users.
 * If you believe there are some problems with the current Albums project, then direct your concerns there, rather than making unilateral edits of your own. That way it prevents any inconsistencies on future articles, and give current users a heads-up on changing existing articles. You should be trying to reach a resolution there before making any further edits to music articles.
 * In the long run, policy change/amendment is better for Wikipedia than guerilla edits here and there. I don't want to see you piss off any users that may not be more understanding as I am.  Cheers,  --Madchester 14:29, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

L`arc~en~ciel
Hello-

Just wanted to clarify that all members of L`arc~en~ciel have the first letter in the name lower-cased.

Angelica (user name ultrabionic ang) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.173.137.45 (talk • contribs) 02:28, 17 August 2005

 * I know, and in fact I've been correcting to lower-case when I see it. However, sentences always start with upper-case letters, and that overrides other typographical conventions (just as it does with common nouns). --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 10:18, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
I wanted to leave you a note of thanks for making my morning a little brighter. Your message regarding the diet of trolls put a smile on my face. --Viriditas | Talk 03:18, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

User:Amalekite
He's obviously a sockpuppet; just look at his edit history. He's apparently trying to team up with others to create cliques. Jayjg (talk) 18:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Baekje
Hello Mel,

I've just been looking at the Baekje article and I noticed that on 20th April this year you edited the article and made some substantial, and controversial, changes. The edit summary did not reflect the controversial changes which involved the wholesale replacement of the BC/AD notation with the uncommon, and largely unknown, CE/BCE alternative. You will know that Wikipedia policy in these matters is that the preference of the first major contributor (User:Ryuch in this case) should be maintained. Why did you feel the need to go against this policy? I would like to change the article back to BC/AD usage, but do you have particularly strong views on the matter? Arcturus 23:04, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Language
Hi, I have responded to your comments at Talk:Language. Now I see that the philosopher influencing me is one of your colleagues, except for a time difference. But I talked a few months ago with a philosophy student from Oxford who hadn't heard of Collingwood, so I don't know how much institutional memory there is of him. Anyway I shall be glad for your response. Cheers, David Pierce 08:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Mel Etitis/Archive 22


text:
Commodian

Commodian (Commodianus) was a Christian Latin poet, who flourished about AD 250.

The only ancient writers who mention him are Gennadius, presbyter of Massilia (end of 5th century), in his De scriptoribus ecclesiasticis, and an author once thought to be Pope Gelasius in De libris recipiendis et non recipiendis, in which his works are classed as Apocryphi, probably on account of certain heterodox statements contained in them. Commodianus is supposed to have been from Roman Africa, partly on the ground of his similarity to Cyprian, partly because the African school was the chief center of Christian Latinity in the third century; a Syrian origin has also been suggested.

As he himself tells us, he was originally a pagan, but was converted to Christianity when advanced in years, and felt called upon to instruct the ignorant in the truth. He was the author of two extant works of poetry, Instructiones and Carmen apologeticum (first published in 1852 by J. B. Pitra in the Spicilegium Solesmense, from an MS. in the Middlehill collection, now at Cheltenham, supposed to have been brought from the monastery of Bobbio).

The Instructiones consist of 80 poems, each of which is an acrostic (with the exception of poem 60, where the initial letters are in alphabetical order). The initials of poem 80, read backwards, give Commodianus Mendicus Christi. The Carmen Apologeticum, undoubtedly by Commodianus, although the name of the author (as well as the title) is absent from the MS., is free from the acrostic restriction. The first part of the Instructiones is addressed to the heathens and Jews, and ridicules the divinities of classical mythology; the second contains reflections on Antichrist, the end of the world, the Resurrection, and advice to Christians, penitents, and the clergy. In the Apologeticum all mankind are exhorted to repent, in view of the approaching end of the world. The appearance of Antichrist, identified with Nero and the Man from the East, is expected at an early date. Although they display fiery dogmatic zeal, the poems cannot be considered quite orthodox. To the classical scholar the metre alone is of interest. Although they are professedly written in hexameters, the rules of quantity are sacrificed to accent. The first four lines of the Instructiones may be quoted by way of illustration:

 * Praefatio nostra viam erranti demonstrat
 * Respectumque bonum, cum venerit saeculi meta
 * Aeternum fieri, quod discredunt inscia corda:
 * Ego similiter erravi tempore multo.

These versus politici (as they are called) show that the change was already passing over Latin which resulted in the formation of the Romance languages. The use of cases and genders, the construction of verb, and prepositions, and the verbal forms exhibit striking irregularities. The author, however, shows an acquaintance with Latin poets Horace, Virgil, and Lucretius.

On the metre used by Commodian, see further: Latin rhythmic hexameter.

Editions

 * Poinsotte, Jean-Michel (ed., trans.). Commodien. Instructions (Paris: Les Belles Lettres, 2009) (Collection des universités de France. Série latine, 392).
 * The instructions of Commodianus, in favor of Christian discipline, against the gods of the heathens (1880). Transcribed by Robert Ernest Wallis (1820–1900). In Ante-Nicene Christian library, Volume XVIII.
 * Ludwig, E. (1878). Commodiani Carmina, part 1: Instructiones. Leipzig.
 * Ludwig, E. (1877). Commodiani Carmina part 2: Carmen Apologeticum. Leipzig.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Commodian


text:
Uncle Sam (singer)

Uncle Sam (born Sam Turner; May 31, 1971 in Detroit, Michigan, United States) is an American R&B And Pop singer. He is best known for being signed to Boyz II Men's Stonecreek Records imprint (distributed by Epic Records) in the late 1990s.

One Of His Top 40 hits was the Nathan Morris-penned "I Don't Ever Want to See You Again" released October 14, 1997, which reached No.1 In Radio Rotation And No.2 on the US Billboard Hot 100 chart, and No. 2 on the US R&B chart in 1997. The same track reached No. 30 in the UK Singles Chart in May 1998. The record sold over one million copies, gaining Platinum status.

Uncle Sam also sang a cover of "When I See You Smile", originally recorded by Bad English, for the television program, Touched by an Angel.Sold Over One Million Copies In Under 3 Weeks. He Is Highly Anticipated And Under Rated And His Voice Is Still Incredible. He Recently Released In 2023 A Hot New Single Called Melanin And Another Amazing Single Called Let’s Get Missing And Last But Not Least And A Single Called Somebody Prayed For Me. Surprisingly His Voice Sounds Even Better Than It Did In The Late 90’s And Early 2000’s.

Uncle Sam performed a live global stream in Nairobi, Kenya on February 18, 2017, following the final bout of the Making of a Champ boxing series. His set included:
 * 1) "Free"
 * 2) "When I See You Smile"
 * 3) "You" (pre-release debut of new single)
 * 4) "I Don't Ever Want to See You Again" He Is Releasing A New Album In The Spring Of 2024 That Will End The Inquiry Of Where Is The One Hit Wonder. Stay Tuned.

title: Uncle Sam (singer)


text:
Cretonne

Cretonne was originally a strong, white fabric with a hempen warp and linen weft.

The word is sometimes said to be derived from Créton, a village in Mesnils-sur-Iton (Eure, Upper Normandy) where the manufacture of linen was carried on; some other serious sources mention that the cretonne was invented by Paul Creton, an inhabitant of Vimoutiers in the Pays d'Auge, Lower Normandy, France, a village very active in the textile industry in the past centuries.

The word is now applied to a strong, printed cotton cloth, which is stouter than chintz but used for very much the same purposes. It is usually unglazed and may be printed on both sides and even with different patterns. Frequently cretonne has a fancy woven pattern of some kind which is modified by the printed design. It is sometimes made with a weft of cotton waste.

title: Cretonne


text:
Talk:Submarine sill

I'm not much of a geologist - it may be appropriate to replace the redirect with an article about the specific properties of submarine sills. For the moment, though, this resolves usefully a link from the Thermohaline circulation article. Hughcharlesparker 11:22, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Submarine sill


text:
James O'Brien

James O'Brien may refer to:

Politicians

 * James O'Brien (died 1771), Irish nobleman and politician
 * James O'Brien (1806–1882), Irish judge and British MP for Limerick City
 * James O'Brien (Canadian politician) (1836–1903), Canadian senator
 * James O'Brien (New Brunswick politician) (1824–1922), Canadian blacksmith and political figure in New Brunswick
 * James O'Brien (New Zealand politician) (1874–1947), New Zealand politician
 * James O'Brien (U.S. Congressman) (1841–1907), United States Representative from New York
 * James Bronterre O'Brien (1805–1864), Irish-born Chartist leader, reformer and journalist
 * J. F. X. O'Brien (James Francis Xavier O'Brien, 1828–1905), Irish rebel and British MP
 * James H. O'Brien (1860–1924), United States Representative from New York
 * Jay O'Brien (Virginia politician) (born 1951), American politician in Virginia
 * James C. O'Brien, first and former Special Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs during the Obama administration
 * James William O'Brien (1879-1960), American farmer and politician

Others

 * James O'Brien, 3rd Marquess of Thomond (1769–1855), British naval officer
 * James O'Brien (broadcaster) (born 1972), British journalist and presenter, primarily on LBC radio
 * James O'Brien (athlete) (1925–1988), Canadian sprinter
 * James O'Brien (hurler) (born 1983), Irish hurler
 * James O'Brien (internet radio) (born 1973), Canadian internet radio journalist, founder and producer of RantMedia
 * James O'Brien (oceanographer) (1935–2016), American oceanographer
 * James O'Brien (piper) (1823–1885), Irish musician
 * James F. O'Brien, American computer graphics researcher
 * James O'Brien (filmmaker) (born 1969), American film director, screenwriter and producer
 * James Joseph O'Brien (1930–2007), British clergyman
 * James O'Brien (horticulturist) (1842–1930), winner of the Victoria Medal of Honour
 * James O'Brien, Australian musician, bassist for The Boat People (active since 2000)
 * James J. O'Brien was one of many known aliases used by con artist George C. Parker (1860–1937)

title: James O'Brien


text:
Loschmidt constant

The Loschmidt constant or Loschmidt's number (symbol: n0) is the number of particles (atoms or molecules) of an ideal gas per volume (the number density), and usually quoted at standard temperature and pressure. The 2018 CODATA recommended value is $$2.686780111... \times 10^{25}$$ per cubic metre at 0 °C and 1 atm. It is named after the Austrian physicist Johann Josef Loschmidt, who was the first to estimate the physical size of molecules in 1865. The term "Loschmidt constant" is also sometimes used to refer to the Avogadro constant, particularly in German texts.

By ideal gas law, $$p_0V = Nk_BT_0$$, and since $$N = n_0 V$$, the Loschmidt constant is given by the relationship
 * $$n_0 = \frac{p_0}{k_\text{B}T_0},$$

where kB is the Boltzmann constant, p0 is the standard pressure, and T0 is the standard thermodynamic temperature.

Since the Avogadro constant NA satisfies $$R = N_\text{A} k$$, the Loschmidt constant satisfies
 * $$n_0 = \frac{p_0N_\text{A}}{RT_0},$$

where R is the ideal gas constant.

Being a measure of number density, the Loschmidt constant is used to define the amagat, a practical unit of number density for gases and other substances:
 * $$1\; \textrm{amagat} = n_0 = 2.686780111... \times 10^{25}\;\textrm{m}^{-3}$$,

such that the Loschmidt constant is exactly 1 amagat.

Modern determinations
In the CODATA set of recommended values for physical constants, the Loschmidt constant is calculated from the Avogardo constant and the molar volume of an ideal gas, or equivalently the Boltzmann constant:

 * $$n_0 := \frac{N_{\mathrm A}}{V_m} =\frac{p_0}{k_B T_0},$$

where Vm is the molar volume of an ideal gas at the specified temperature and pressure, which can be chosen freely and must be quoted with values of the Loschmidt constant. The Loschmidt constant is exactly defined for exact temperatures and pressures since the 2019 redefinition of the SI base units.

First determinations
Loschmidt did not actually calculate a value for the constant which now bears his name, but it is a simple and logical manipulation of his published results. James Clerk Maxwell described the paper in these terms in a public lecture eight years later: Loschmidt has deduced from the dynamical theory the following remarkable proportion:—As the volume of a gas is to the combined volume of all the molecules contained in it, so is the mean path of a molecule to one-eighth of the diameter of a molecule. To derive this "remarkable proportion", Loschmidt started from Maxwell's own definition of the mean free path (there is an inconsistency between the result on this page and the page cross-referenced to the mean free path; here appears an additional factor 3/4):
 * $$\ell = \frac{3}{4n_0\pi d^2},$$

where n$0$ has the same sense as the Loschmidt constant, that is the number of molecules per unit volume, and d is the effective diameter of the molecules (assumed to be spherical). This rearranges to
 * $$\frac{1}{n_0} = \frac{16}{3} \frac{\pi\ell d^2}{4},$$

where 1/n$0$ is the volume occupied by each molecule in the gas phase, and πℓd$2$/4 is the volume of the cylinder made by the molecule in its trajectory between two collisions. However, the true volume of each molecule is given by πd$3$/6, and so n$0$πd$3$/6 is the volume occupied by all the molecules not counting the empty space between them. Loschmidt equated this volume with the volume of the liquified gas. Dividing both sides of the equation by n$0$πd$3$/6 has the effect of introducing a factor of V$liquid$/V$gas$, which Loschmidt called the "condensation coefficient" and which is experimentally measurable. The equation reduces to
 * $$d = 8\frac{V_\text{l}}{V_\text{g}}\ell$$

relating the diameter of a gas molecule to measurable phenomena.

The number density, the constant which now bears Loschmidt's name, can be found by simply substituting the diameter of the molecule into the definition of the mean free path and rearranging:
 * $$n_0 = \left(\frac{V_\text{g}}{V_\text{l}}\right)^2 \frac{3}{256\pi\ell^3}.$$

Instead of taking this step, Loschmidt decided to estimate the mean diameter of the molecules in air. This was no minor undertaking, as the condensation coefficient was unknown and had to be estimated–it would be another twelve years before Raoul Pictet and Louis Paul Cailletet would liquify nitrogen for the first time. The mean free path was also uncertain. Nevertheless, Loschmidt arrived at a diameter of about one nanometre, of the correct order of magnitude.

Loschmidt's estimated data for air give a value of n$0$ = $1.81 m-3$. Eight years later, Maxwell was citing a figure of "about 19 million million million" per cm$3$, or $1.9 m-3$.

title: Loschmidt constant


text:
Coming Up Rosie

Coming Up Rosie was a Canadian children's sitcom TV series on CBC Television, aired for three seasons from 1975–1978.

Premise
The show focused on a group of tenants in an office building located at 99 Sumach Street, Toronto. Rosemary Radcliffe played the title character, aspiring Canadian documentary film-maker Rosie Tucker.

The initial cast also included Fiona Reid as Mona Swicker, an operator for the Ringading Telephone Answering Service; John Stocker as elevator operator Dwayne Kramer; Dan Hennessey as Ralph Oberding, salesman for the Neva-Rust Storm Door Company; Barrie Baldaro as Rosie's production assistant Dudley Nightshade; and Dan Aykroyd as building janitor/superintendent Purvis Bickle.

Aykroyd appeared as a regular in this series concurrently with his star-making turn on Saturday Night Live, which debuted less than a month after Coming Up Rosie.

Cast member Fiona Reid was cast on King of Kensington almost simultaneously with the start of Coming Up Rosie, and citing her lack of improvisational skills ("I wasn't comfortable....Rosie demands a great improvisational head. I need set lines." ), left Coming Up Rosie only a few months after its debut. Aykroyd also left the show after its first season. Later cast members—replacing Aykroyd and Reid—included John Candy as Wally Wypyzypychwk, the Ukrainian owner of Sleep-Tite Burglar Alarms, and Catherine O'Hara as answering service operator Myrna Wallbacker. Both Candy and O'Hara concurrently starred in Second City Television, actually appearing on Rosie concurrently with their early episodes of SCTV, which began in September 1976. Candy was also a regular on the sitcom The David Steinberg Show (1976–77) during this period, thereby simultaneously appearing as a regular on three separate series for three different Canadian networks.

Many of the actors in this series also appeared in the less successful 1974–1975 CBC series Dr. Zonk and the Zunkins.

Broadcast
For the first season, the series aired at 4:30pm on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. The series frequency was reduced to once per week for the remaining seasons, Mondays in 1976-77 and Tuesdays in 1977–78.

Cast

 * Dan Aykroyd (Purvis Bickle)
 * Barrie Baldaro (Dudley Nightshade)
 * John Candy (Wally Wypyzypywchuk)
 * Dan Hennessey (Ralph Oberding)
 * Catherine O'Hara (Myrna Wallbacker)
 * Rosemary Radcliffe (Rosie Tucker)
 * Fiona Reid (Mona Swicker)
 * John Stocker (Dwayne Kramer)

title: Coming Up Rosie


text:
Frontside Rock'n'Roll

Frontside Rock'n'Roll is the fourth album by the Norwegian rock band BigBang, released in 2002.

Overview
Frontside Rock'n'Roll is the first full-length Bigbang album to be released outside of Norway. Warner Music Germany would also re-release their previous album Clouds Rolling By in the country.

Øystein Greni wrote the song "Frontside Rock 'n' Roll" as a tribute to two of his skater friends, who had died the same year. Frontside Rock 'n' Roll is also the name of a skateboard trick, a sport which Greni is a former European champion of. The song lyrics reference various skateboard tricks.

"Fire & Oil" was co-written with Nikolai Eilertsen and documents the 11th of September 2001 events from the point of view of a kamikaze pilot. "Earphones" is an homage to Ray Charles. "One of a Kind" is dedicated to his friend the Norwegian film director Joachim Trier, while "Mercedes" is dedicated to 'M.E.O.' (Maria Eva Orieta), a performer from Argentina and Greni's then-fiancée.

Personnel
Bigbang Additional personnel
 * Øystein Greni – lead vocals, guitars, piano, mandolin, horns, drums, percussion, producer
 * Nikolai Eilertsen – bass, organ, piano, harmonica, horns, percussion, backing vocals, co-producer
 * Olaf Olsen – drums, percussion

 * Nils B. Kvam – co-producer
 * Stig Morten Sørheim – engineer
 * Morten Lund – mastering
 * Stig Morten Sørheim – percussion, backing vocals
 * Karim Sayed – backing vocals
 * Martin Windstad – congas (track 1)
 * Lars Håvard Haugen – lead guitar (track 3)
 * Christian Engfelt – backing vocals (track 3)
 * Jon Riise – backing vocals (track 3)
 * Sølvguttene – choir (track 7)
 * Sindre E. Røysland – backing vocals (track 8)
 * Åshild Stensrud – backing vocals (track 8)
 * Åste Sem – backing vocals (track 8)
 * Asgeir Innerdal – skateboard noise (track 10)
 * Amelie Poulain – photography
 * Jan Inge Janbu – photography
 * Dimitri Kayiambakis – artwork
 * Millimeter – artwork

title: Frontside Rock'n'Roll


text:
Tripping the Live Fantastic

Tripping the Live Fantastic is Paul McCartney's first official solo live album and his first release of concert material since Wings' 1976 Wings over America live package. It was released in 1990 as triple LP, double cassette and double CD. Tripping the Live Fantastic reached number 17 in the UK and number 26 in the US. It was also simultaneously released in an abridged form, entitled Tripping the Live Fantastic: Highlights!

History
A document of the highly successful The Paul McCartney World Tour, Tripping the Live Fantastic encompasses McCartney's entire musical career from his Beatles songs to his most recent album, Flowers in the Dirt, while also including some unique covers; interspersed throughout are occasional soundcheck recordings as well. The title is an allusion to the phrase "tripping the light fantastic", meaning to dance or move to musical accompaniment, originally from the poem L'Allegro by John Milton. Although he had reversed the Lennon–McCartney credits on Wings over America in 1976, McCartney left the credits for his Beatles songs on Tripping the Live Fantastic in their original form.

Tripping the Live Fantastic: Highlights!
Tripping the Live Fantastic: Highlights! is an abridged version of the double CD/triple LP Tripping the Live Fantastic, also released in 1990.

Cutting out soundcheck recordings and showcasing just the concert highlights, this set is notable for the exclusive inclusion of "All My Trials", not found on Tripping the Live Fantastic or on the US commercial release version (where it was replaced by "Put It There"), it was issued on the Columbia House mail-order Highlights release.

Not charting at all in the UK, Tripping the Live Fantastic: Highlights! reached number 141 in the US on the Billboard 200 and, proving to be a sustained seller, went platinum. The original set peaked at number 26 and failed to go gold.

Videos
Paul McCartney: Put It There

A video produced in 1989, titled Paul McCartney: Put It There, featured McCartney and his band rehearsing for the tour.

Paul McCartney: Going Home

The Disney Channel filmed Paul McCartney: Going Home during the tour. The show highlights McCartney's return to Liverpool where he introduced a tribute to John Lennon, featured on the B-side of the "All My Trials" single, comprising "Strawberry Fields Forever", "Help!", and "Give Peace a Chance".

Get Back

A VHS concert film was also released, entitled Get Back. The video was directed by Richard Lester, the director of A Hard Day's Night and Help! It was his final project before his retirement.

Track listing
All songs by Paul McCartney, except where noted.

Personnel

 * Paul McCartney – lead vocals, acoustic, electric and bass guitars, piano, keyboards
 * Linda McCartney – keyboards, backing vocals
 * Hamish Stuart – acoustic, electric and bass guitars, backing vocals, lead vocals on "Ebony and Ivory"
 * Robbie McIntosh – electric guitars, backing vocals
 * Paul 'Wix' Wickens – keyboards, backing vocals
 * Chris Whitten – drums, percussion

Weekly charts

 * Tripping the Live Fantastic

 * Tripping the Live Fantastic – Highlights!

Certifications

 * Tripping the Live Fantastic

 * Tripping the Live Fantastic – Highlights!

title: Tripping the Live Fantastic


text:
Talk:Khardung La

Links
Why is it ok to link to Kashmir, Karakoram, Leh, Siachen Glacier and Central Asia, but links to South Pullu and Nubra Valley are removed? Without even bothering to put something in the edit summary? 193.172.135.148

 * The reason is there are no articles to those areas and so I decided to remove them. I'm sorry to have edited it without adding in the reasoning behind it in the edit summary. Hope that clarified. Idleguy 11:48, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * Red links are beneficial to wikipedia, please don't remove red links for the sake of removing red links - the criteria for wikifying a link shouldn't be "does an article already exist here?", rather it should be "SHOULD an article exist here?" --81.154.236.221 17:56, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Content
What is the correct altitude? The article says 5,682 m (18,640 feet) but on the picture, the sign says 18380 feet (which equates to 5602 m). Where is the truth?

 * Further down this page! Viewfinder 09:45, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

 * When it was built it was measured - rather wrongly at 18380 feet, however when Guinness Records made its measurement it was found to be 18,640 feet above sea level. A case of underestimation by those who built it!! Idleguy 14:58, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * So what makes the measurement of Guinness Records the right one? There are two, disagreeing measurements, and you declare one of them to be correct. On what bases? Hopely not because 18640 is a "better" record than 18380? 193.172.135.148 14:45, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I believe advancements in technology make it easier to find out the exact height. the board says 18380 feet when it was opened in 1980s. the measurement made by guinness is much more recent; and all things being equal, the last measurement is likely to be more accurate since tech-aided measurements are more precise. Furthermore it is from a neutral source and not from the builders; and guinness records is often regarded as quite accurate as their regulations are stringent. Hope that answered your query. Idleguy 16:44, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Article Name
If "La" means pass, shouldn't the article be at either Khardung La or Khardung Pass? Where it sits now, it's name means "Khardung Pass Pass"(sic). --Madison Gray 14:38, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually there are many such "La"s or passes in the area like Kambala pass or the Ganja la pass and so on. Despite being technically redundant it is the common terminology for such names, because without a pass being affixed it is likely to be confused with some villages with similar names as the passes. Not everyone understands tibetian languages you know. Furthermore the Khardung La article redirects here. Thanx Idleguy 15:28, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Why is the article called "Khardong La" when it is quite obviously named "Khardung La" ? The assertion that "Non-locals sometimes call it Khardung-La instead" seems to be contradicted by the fact that the signs physically located there spell it "Khardung La". Njb1969 16:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't know why it was moved. No clear explanation was given. Unless a clear explanation is provided, then I propose to move it back. Viewfinder 09:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

 * It should be known by what it is officially named, not what non locals call it as. Therefore I recomment that the original name of Khardung La be the right name to be moved to. That is the Wikipedia norm and policy. Thanks. Idleguy 09:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The article now (April 2010) says, correctly, "Khardung La ... The local pronunciation is "Khardong La" or "Khardzong La," but, as with most names in Ladakh, the romanised spelling varies." BeckyLadakh (talk) 15:10, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Any hope of adding an image file showing just where this road runs/is located? -- llywrch 17:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I would have a really good map, but it seem to be quite complicated for me to upload it without an account.. Some suggestions? :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.207.240.70 (talk) 17:15, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

where is it?
Can someone add a map or the latitude/longitude please? Andrew

 * I'd agree on that. a map would be great. Idleguy 05:30, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

GPS errors and Marsimek La
firstly marsimek la at 18,634 feet is still 6 feet lower than khardungla (guinness). Regarding the results obtained from GPS, one has to note that GPS is mainly used for positioning and its primary feature is navigation. See "GPS Error Sources" in this site -> to understand why GPS readings are seldom used by itself to determine heights. Often they are used in tandem with other devices. For measuring heights, various more accurate and dependable methods are used. Also in case of dispute a reliable and more trustworthy source is a much safer bet than a site which is nothing but a collection of stories on the purported heights. Such measurements are neither scientific nor recorded by a professional. Hobbyists' calculations based on commercial GPS and altimeter gadgets are hardly the seal of approval. Thus I've reverted the changes. Tx Idleguy 10:21, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

I find the above comments by Idleguy about GPS quite astonishing and I intend to vigorously contest both the comments and the reversion of my changes. There is nothing in the GPS Error Sources section to suggest that the SIX independent GPS readings I now list could ALL be THREE HUNDRED metres out. I have been using GPS for some time now and found geoid corrected readings are usually accurate to 5 metres and seldom out by more than 10 metres. Even uncorrected ellipsoid readings are accurate to within 50 metres. I have updated my evidence at and. Idleguy, it would be a good idea for you to find out from Guinness World Records how they obtained their 5682m figure. Viewfinder

 * Funny, I find you quoting repeatedly from the same website as mentioned in the article. all are from http://www.sol.co.uk . I would love to know from guinness how they measured the height, but they take their own sweet time to respond; but the gist of their methods can be viewed on their site where they state that they maintain the highest professional standards in any field. Any number of people can claim a certain record as disputed, but unless there is concrete evidence and the claim in verifiable by a neutral third party, like Guinness this might prove to be a dead end. If Guinness does update their statistic, then I'd be glad to do so here, but until then claims and counter claims must be reserved to a website or blog and find little place in an encyclopedia.

 * P.S. As a side note did you know that guinness book of records was created specifically to settle disputes like this? Idleguy 04:19, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

The main site I quote from is my own but this in turn quotes from many other sites and other authorities, and supplies sound evidence. August authorities always make claims about their professionalism, valid or otherwise. If Guinness really do maintain "the highest professional standards in any field" then they should be able to substantiate their claims about Khardung La and name their professional authority promptly. You do not expect them to get round to this? Neither do I, although I have written to them. Meanwhile claims by numerous travellers who have been to Khardung La and measured it using what has, contrary to your comments, become a reliable method, should take precedence in a public-input encyclopedia like Wikipedia, over an authority that has become too lethargic to bother to respond to questions about its sources. Your reversion raises questions about whether wikipedia really is the public input encyclopedia it claims to be, or whether it is controlled by a clique.

You may remember that former Guinness executive Ernest Saunders (aka Ernst Schleyer, a fact that he did not properly declare) was jailed for seriously unprofessional standards. You might also like to know that the 1998 edition the Guinness Book of Records states that the longest line of sight in the UK is 144 kilometres (sic) from Merrick to Snowdon. Anyone with an atlas can check that it is infact 144 miles (sic) from Merrick to Snowdon. That is definitely not what I would call professional reporting. Yes I did know that the enterprising McWhirter brothers created the Guinness Book of Records to settle these disputes, but imho GWR have gone downhill in recent years; much of its space is now taken up by small talk which is less informative but much easier to conduct than researching hard facts.

Here's a compromise suggestion. Will you, or allow me to at least amend the main page to point out that several separate GPS measurements have come up with significantly lower elevations? I think you should. But if you will not, then I am willing to leave this matter for a while to give Guinness time to respond. If they do not respond then I propose to state my case, pointing out their lack of response, vigorously to mediation and arbitration. Viewfinder

 * While it is true that guinness has taken on a more pop culture oriented view of records, it so happens that there is no one else that seems to do a better job at consolidating facts, stats and other records comprehensively over a sustained period of time. However, I don't have a problem with the compromise u suggested. Please feel free to amend accordingly stating the contradictory claims at the bottom; as this is an open encyclopedia and not an elitopedia. All that we here at wikipedia would like to do is ensure that the sources are credible. mere websites that state counter claims (against accepted and well known facts) as you would understand are not accorded the highest priority. however in a few years time maybe they will be recognised officially, until then it belongs to the realm of original research as per Wikipedia official policy.

 * Hope I made myself clear. Idleguy 11:30, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

 * I have to correct myself. Heck, the more I see that website, the problem seems to stare me right at the face. It seems the author of these controversial claims over there seems to be Jonathan de Ferranti. Is this a coincidence? The website seems to have been updated right after your editing and posting here. Another coincidence? I think not. I would suggest that the article remain as it is to ensure that this does not become a case of sneaky vandalism. The references quoted are ineffect nothing but your own take on this subject guised in a different website. Thus it is not an independent secondary source. See Reliable_sources to understand what i mean. As per official policy, that and any similar sites u intend to put up cannot be taken as a source. Sorry. Idleguy 11:54, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

Six INDEPENDENT GPS readings all conclude that the elevation of Khardung La Road Pass is less than 5400 metres
And so, effectively, do NASA and the Russians!!

I concede, Idleguy, that the web page COLLATING the evidence for the above claim,, is mine. But the authors of the claim are MANY and it comes from MANY DIFFERENT websites with which I have had not one iota of involvement, Idleguy. My contribution to the six websites that I cite is PRECISELY NIL, Idleguy. And they were all uploaded before I posted anything to this site. So I find your accusation of "sneaky vandalism" contemptible.

The above claim is supported not merely by GPS, but by data from NASA's SRTM and Russian topographic mapping, which for the Indian Himalaya has better topographical detail than any other mapping that has been made available to the public. Are you suggesting these sources, too, are my own take in disguise? Goodness gracious me.

Pointing out this evidence in the discussion section is completely legitimate and the evidence is sufficient to merit a mention on the main article page despite being contrary to a source who, however "professional", have not identified their own primary authority on this matter. But still, let us see what, if anything, Guinness come back with. OK, for now, despite the nonsensical basis on which you insist on this, the main page remains as it is. But meanwhile any attempt by you or anyone else to delete or delete from my postings to this talk page section will elicit a very vigorous response indeed.

Even the most august authorities sometimes get it wrong. Attempts to question their word should NOT be suppressed.

Incidentally, here is a direct link to a map accurately centred on coordinates supplied by the Catalan GPS measurement. (I swear that I had no part in the Catalan - or any other - measurement and that it appears here exactly as it was sent to me). The map accurately marks the road pass but incorrectly locates what it calls (in Cyrillic) "Khardung". I also supply a direct link to the SRTM elevation data centred on the same coordinates. I think it all amounts to stronger evidence than anything likely to be supplied by Guinness. Viewfinder

 * Sources that quote and stand by the version of Khardungla include apart from the Guinness, the National Geographic society. You'd expect that a society formed specifically for geographical purposes would not make mistakes and erroneously report the wrong height. You claim NASA and Russian estimates on this, but do they officially say anything on the world's highest pass? Because if they do conduct such a research on one pass, then i'm assuming they should also have measured the other "las" that you suggest are higher. in which case they should also be able to come out with all their elevations. only then can we know what the truth is.

 * also remember these other passes might be higher than khardungla, but do they even have something of a semblance called a road? if they are just passable and not motorable enough (as with automobiles) they wouldnt really be a road by modern standards. passage for mules and camels alone is probably not a "motorable road". Idleguy 14:46, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Hello again Idleguy!

For your further information:

(1) Re the National Geographic Society: from this : "I checked the 7th edition of the National Geographic Atlas of the World on your behalf. The altitude for Orizaba Peak, Mexico's high point, is given as 5747 meters...Research Correspondence (National Geographic Society)." This altitude is shown to be seriously WRONG not just by the Mexican national survey who give 5611m, but also by a GPS professional survey; quoted here the professor estimates the accuracy of his 18490ft(5636m) result at 50ft. So I reject your comments about the National Geographic Society. Incidentally the Times Atlas, which people like you would also take as indisputable gospel, has many major elevation errors, especially in High Asia and South America.

(2) The road through the Trans-Himalayas, north from Raga to Coqen, rising to Semo La (5585m, N 30°06'36" E 85°25'54") is shown on maps uploaded to this site. SRTM data confirms the elevation and the author of this page (see Route-info, Katmandu-Kashi) has confirmed to me that Semo La is a motorable road. These reporters are trying hard to establish reputations; they would not risk being caught reporting lies.

(3) Neither SRTM nor the Russians have specifically researched passes but if their elevation data (NASA) and topo contours (Russian) are correct, which they are likely to be as they agree closely in the Khardung area and closely enough in the Semo area, then they implicitly show that Semo La is higher.

I trust first hand reports in preference to august publications. It will take time but I am confident that Guinness will eventually concede their error. Viewfinder

POSTSCRIPT: I have just found a 5300m elevation quote here. I assume noone would suggest that Sir Christian Bonington is part of my great conspiracy against Khardung La Road Pass!! Not even you, Idleguy. Viewfinder

 * Can you get a reliable source that gives the highest motorable road in the world? If it is Semo La, how come i've never heard of anyone doing motorized expeditions to there. Maybe I've not come across such expedition and I am all ears if you can update this missing piece with sources on any motorcycle or automobile trips to this remote pass. the link u have given me of bonington only tells me that are supposed to be higher passes. but which is that one? Is it verifiable by more than one reliable source? No one will bother to look up topographic maps or pore through numbers to find the highest pass as the maps from nasa and russian link u gave are. can they quote in no uncertain terms that " X pass is the highest" (X being either semo la or marsmik la). Only then this can be solved. Else another chap passing through this article will once again claim something else. Idleguy 07:20, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that more information is needed. Hopefully it will emerge. Semo La is mentioned on the summitpost Kailash page ("Northern Route"), on which it is implied that vehicle travel is possible. But there is much less internet information, and no actual reports of motorised expeditions. This is probably because (a) it is remote and difficult, and (b) most people think Khardungla is higher. There may be even higher motorable passes in Tibet.

Re Marsimik, I have checked this out. Some internet sites say 5680m. This one says "5590m, 18634ft", can anyone clarify this because according to my calculator 5590m=18340ft). The Russian topo says it is 5641m. Its precise coordinates are a bit unclear. From SRTM I cannot see how it can be as much as 5680m but it's at least 5580m so it probably overtops Semo La. It may be "motorable" in the literal sense that someone has put a motorcycle on the summit, and for army vehicles, but I doubt if the majority of motorists should consider it motorable. A report here seems to suggest a motorable road in Bolivia that rises to 5836m, and there are other reports from the Andes that seem to claim that motor vehicles have been driven to over 6000 metres. The research continues. Viewfinder

 * Also note that khardungla was already a pass that was part of the silk route for centuries, but it was only in 76 that a road was built and opened to public in 1988. so it suggests that not all passes are considered as roads, though they might be so flat u could drive vehicles. i think the confusion might lie in what is being termed as a "road". motor vehicles can and have been driven to more than 6000 metres as u said, but the record is not about endurance driving, or climbing over the hill with specialised vehicles or drivers but about the "highest road" which any averagely skilled driver on almost any motor vehicle can climb. the khardungla has been driven on by a myriad of vehicles from the mundane to the heavy vehicles. Idleguy 05:19, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

More info about the quality of the Semo La route would be good. Another possible source of confusion: the 1976 road appears to have been cut into the steep side of a mountain. Perhaps, before it was built, the silk routers took a more direct and less steep, but higher, route, a bit further east, nearer to what the Russian map calls "Khardung". The map here says "5460m" but SRTM puts this closer to 5600m. Viewfinder

Postscript: The debate about what is a "motorable road" and location of the highest motorable road may be open. But Suge La, 5430m, about 100km west of Lhasa, is, according to this summitpost page, on a bus route. This surely makes it a "motorable road" by any reasonable definition. Both SRTM and a GPS reading by the author of the above page reaffirm the elevation of 5430m shown on the map on the above page. Viewfinder

12 September 2005: further information about the world's highest motorable pass can be found here. This site will be updated with new information as and when I find it. Viewfinder

5 October 2005. Despite three attempts, I have still not received a response from Guinness World Records. This is not surprising, as I have since discovered that GWR is now part of the HIT Entertainment group, whose earnings are primarily from childrens' cartoon characters like Bob the Builder, not from accurate reporting. There is a trade-off between entertaining and accurate informing.

Recent amendments to the main page are inadequate. I propose to further amend it as follows (amendment between asterisks): The exact height of the road has been the subject of some debate with official Indian measurements putting the height at 18,380 while the Guinness book puts it higher, **but several independent travellers' GPS reports, SRTM data, Russian topographic mapping and an [article] by Bonington all put it considerably lower, around 17,500**. There are also several other passes in the tibetian plateau which are claimed to be higher that Khardungla, though none have been verified by independent institutions. If this amendment is not made, I shall make it myself. If I am prevented from doing this, then I will initiate dispute proceedings with Wikipedia, and ask them to pass judgement which will be on permanent record. Viewfinder

6 October (13:53 GMT) - I am happy with the article as it now stands. Although Semo La (5565m) has not been institutionally verified, imho the evidence that it is motorable is solid. Marsimik La (5590m) is almost certainly higher, but whether it is motorable is open to debate. Viewfinder

I have read the ongoing discussion with great interest. Semo Pass is the highest motorable pass I know of. You can drive a vehicle without too much difficulty to higher elevations in Bolivia, but none of those places can be considered a pass. Last time I was on Semo Pass I was there to get coordinates and elevations of the Lhasa-Shigatse-Lhatze-Raka-Tsochen-Lunggar-Saga-Pelku co-Nyalam-Zhangmu route. I work as a coordinator and guide for the BBC (Natural History Unit, Bristol) and last year we made a recce in the above mentioned area. We had to have a lot of info in order to organize the logistics for another, larger expedition this year. The reason why you've never heard of anyone doing motorized expeditions to there is probably because it's on one of the main roads through Tibet. There's not much traffic in the area, but I would say 15-20 vehicles/day go over the pass. If I remember correct, the three GPS had showed 5571m, 5572m and 5555m respectively. The latter one was not a DGPS and was a bit off at times, if not left on a location long enough. Bad recieving unit I'd guess. Some years back I cycled the pass and got altitude readings close to the ones above.

I have travelled and measured higher passes which can be travelled by motorized vehicles, but none of them really qualify as a road pass. A sturdy truck or 4x4 could do it, but not a normal vehicle. I don't want to offend, but to speak frankly, the claimed altitude of Khardung Pass is nothing but pure fantasy from the Indians.

Janne Corax.

 * If you do work for the BBC, maybe you should get the data and ask BBC to put up the information somewhere. That'll stop this confusion that currently exists. I'm not a fan of any place despite being an Indian but Wikipedia is not the place for posting original research. IF more than two reputed publications (National Geographic & Guinness) are stating Khardungla then that'll what is likely to be quoted. I'm pretty happy with the way the article stands now unless BBC has any news on the updated information. I'd be glad and the first to update it accordingly (I'm not a fan of misinformation) but until then I'm afraid in the absence of a valid challenger the (un)disputed champion retains the title. Hope you understand. Idleguy 04:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Imho the possibility that GPS, SRTM, the Russian topo and Bonington can all agree closely about the elevation of Khardungla yet still all be wrong can be completely discounted. I am sure that topographically informed readers will agree. Elitocracies like GWR and NGS, who trade on past glories, not ongoing efforts, will not be easily compelled to admit that it is themselves who are are wrong. The pressure on them should be maintained. Imho Wiki's guidelines are biased against original research and should be challenged, but for now I do not propose to challenge the current wording of the main article. To informed readers it helps to expose the guys at GWR for what they are. Meanwhile I think that there is a need for more certainty that there is nothing higher than Semo; imho the case for Marsimik is arguable and there could be higher candidates still in Tibet. Viewfinder

Support for JDF here

 * Although this discussion appears to have been closed for more than a month, I'd still like to offer a voice of support for Jonathan. It really doesn't surprise me that Guinness have got it wrong; it is obvious that they want money and power much more than going to the trouble of accurately reporting information. Of course they make false claims about their professionalism; who doesn't? The NGS may not have updated their information for a long time.

And to answer someone's query up there, GPS data is now incredibly reliable, much more reliable than satellite data. It is even possible that the major sources copy off each other. At any rate - at the very least - six independent, reliable readings of <5400m, by people who have actually been to the top of the pass, should not be totally ignored. I'm going to put something in the article. --Mark J 12:30, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

--- I have just got myself a copy of the 2006 edition of Guinness World Records and the 5682m elevation on the GWR web page does not appear. Other less significant superlatives do appear so it seems that GWR have not printed the Khardungla web page because they do not have sufficient confidence in it. It is just that for political or commercial reasons or just plain inertia the offending web page has not been amended or removed. Therefore I now think that another attempt should be made to restore the elevation on the main page to the 5359m, which is the value obtained by the Catalan expedition and is consistent will all other competent sources. But I will think about it a bit longer before making the amendment, we don't want any more of Idleguy's reversals. Viewfinder

 * Yo Jonathan I haven't reverted anything. If GWR chooses not to print a record on their website or their print edition, it does in no way belittle a record. They mention the reason why in their FAQs on their site. This issue seems settled right now as the article reflects that the height is indeed a problem. But the lead line cannot be changed unless someone of significant standing confirms your claims. Until then it can be (and rightly is) added as an endnote to the article. Tx Idleguy 18:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry but imo GWR DO implicitly belittle this record by withholding it from print. For example the highest rail tunnel, which is of less significance, does appear. Also their failure to acknowledge a stream of communication on the matter is very poor form. The 5359m survey was competent and consistent with other modern data and the main article should not be leading on any implication that the elevation could be significantly higher. But I am willing to accept your point about confirmation by someone of "significant standing". I will see what I can do to expedite this. Viewfinder 09:45, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Endorsement of 5359m elevation
The endorsement of the 5359m GPS elevation for Khardungla Road Pass by the Catalan Institute of Cartography can be viewed here. Therefore I propose to amend the main article to present the 5359m elevation as fact. I do not want a reverting war, so if anyone objects to this, then please state that objection on this page. Otherwise the amendment will proceed. Viewfinder 17:14, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I still find it hard to convince myself or any prudent editor at Wikipedia that a document basically put up on your website can be cited as proof. The previous statement "arguably the highest" had been quite neutral given that well known institutions reported the heights. Despite your well meaning edits - and my desire to report the exact figures, in this issue I believe a revert is needed. Catalan institute despite its good standing is not a global organisation and when Indian claims are being rubbished it's quite naive to assume that an institute based in europe should be believed. The scope of this organisation is basically Catalonia and not Himalaya. Unless a global organisation with good standing does back this contested statement it is not likely to find primary mention as your edits have been. We could attempt a Requests for Comment to resolve this once and for all. --Idleguy 05:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree to a Requests for a Comment. But you cannot deny that the proof of the 5359m elevation is completely solid with excellent corroboration. Anyone with any knowledge of GPS and SRTM must surely agree. There is no evidence whatsoever to support the higher elevations. The document may be on my site but it is signed on behalf of an organisation that employs professional cartographers. How can so many separate GPS surveys, and SRTM, all be wrong? Surely I have done more than enough to cite my sources as required. By contrast the evidence for higher elevations is, at best, out of date. What global organisation of good standing do you suggest? The likes of the National Geographical Society and GWR are unlikely to bother with this one or to update their out of date information. What's wrong with NASA? Their SRTM data has become authoritative and respected. I have corrected many old and outdated elevations in Wikipedia articles on the basis of SRTM data. This is the ONLY one that is being contested, and the contest is being pursued by one individual, you.

I put my proposed changes on this page and only made them after leaving them for 24 hours. When nothing happened I hoped you had agreed that I had done enough. That weakens the case for a revert and I am happy that on this occasion you are willing to go down the arbitration route instead of reverting and making "sneaky vandalism" accusations. Viewfinder 14:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

It should be noted that Idleguy stated that "the lead line cannot be changed unless someone of significant standing confirms your claims", then concedes the "good standing" of the Catalan institute. Is he suggesting that the Catalan document is a forgery? Viewfinder 14:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

One more question I would like to ask Idleguy. Does the Indian government continue to uphold the 5602m elevation? If so, then this could be made clearer in the main article. If not, then the reference to this in the main article should be deleted. Viewfinder 15:00, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

 * With due respects, what is the objective of an institue in catalan but to limit its scope to the catalan region? So you expect people to place more trust in a source just because it's european and is not even remotely connected to asian geography? Still I've submitted this issue here. The idea is to get third parties to get to comment on this issue from a neutral perspective. Tx. Idleguy 08:27, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I put the case that I have presented provable fact, not original research. I hope the comment will be based on input from someone with good knowledge of GPS and SRTM. I am confident that such a person will recognise that I have disproved the 5600m+ elevations. The GPS claims come form several cited websites, the SRTM data can be verified by other SRTM users, and that the Catalan document us genuine can also be verified. Viewfinder 18:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * The issue is as much about the "roadworthiness" as the height of this pass, since that is what most records suggest. Khardung la has a motorable road and not necessarily the highest pass which is where there is scope for confusion. Other passes might not be motorable enough and I hope that it'll get resolved on these lines. It's not just about the height anymore as about the "highest motorable pass". Tx Idleguy 04:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I have to add my two cents worth having ridden Khardung La and most of the passes around. One, whoever says Marsimek La is 'motorable' by a decently skilled driver/rider has not been there. It most definitely is not. Khardung La on the other hand is as smooth as a baby's bottom to get up to most of the year around. I agree in which, I would like to see reputed independent institutions verify it's actual height. I am not an expert on GPS and cartography but would really like this issue resolved, and if it's in Bolivia, by jove, I'm just gonna have to save up and put that below my belt too :-) Avinash Duduskar avi79@hotmail.com

Hi Avinash, I have written to the Indian Ministry of Science and Technology but they did not respond. My high passes site is updated regularly to the best of my knowledge. Viewfinder 14:47, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Viewfinder: I have tried calling and mailing them in this regard with no response, I am currently thinking of innovative ways to get them to respond. I live in Poona and a personal meeting with these boys in Delhi is not possible given my current work-load. Out of curiosity, and admittedly, with some horror at BBC employee Janne Corax's statement above, I e-mailed Garmin and Magellan, two firms whose handheld GPS devices with an altimeter I could afford. Any suggestions for other brands are welcome as I am planning to buy one. Garmin support got back to me regarding the accuracy of their GPS units, and they stated it could be +/-150 feet, adding that one shouldn't use these as altimeters expecting any sort of accuracy as that is NOT what they are designed for. After asking some people who know and use GPS's and remember their high school altimetry lessons, I am given to understand the altitude accuracy of the GPS CANNOT be worse than +/-600 feet. I think proper documentation of all people who have taken readings along with all relevant information about their devices and the time spent at the summit (it gets cold and windy within 30 seconds of being sunny on top) should be documented and can be considered ample proof for a serious international media review of this matter. BBC employees anyone? Miss Janne? - Avinash Duduskar

 * Hello again Avinash. Being rather cynical in nature, I would suggest that there are both political and commercial interests involved here, which are obstructing serious review. Khardungla is still widely believed to by 5602m/5682m, and it seems to me that the authorities in Delhi and Leh have reasons for wanting to maintain this belief. They do not want to cooperate with any review, which is why neither you nor I can get them to respond. But if it really were 5600m+ they would have been very happy to respond with confirmation.

 * I do not know how the higher elevations got established, but my guess is that its elevation was originally stretched by somepne who wanted Khardungla to be the highest motorable pass. At the time there was no GPS or SRTM, and pressure based altimetres were/are very inaccurate. So verification was difficult. Someone from the National Geographic Society ascended the pass and recorded the claimed 5602m height, but between the recording and the print there was a typo error and it became 5682m. Guinness World Records then reproduced the higher elevation from NGS, which they considered to be a reliable source, without questioning it or bothering to research it themselves. Elevation inflation is common in many parts of the world.

 * I have supplied links to several separate websites created by tourists who have taken GPS readings, which consistently give the lower elevation. One of them clearly shows "17.6" (thousand feet). See also the website of the highly respected Chris Bonington. I have supplied a map, and the coordinates of the pass on the map accurately match the GPS coordinates supplied by the Catalans. All this, and SRTM data, is verifiable by geographers. Hand held GPS devices, used in satellite rather than altimetric mode, are considerably more accurate than 150 feet. My hand held Garmin e-trex is seldom more than 30 feet out and has never been more than 60 feet out. Moreover the Catalan survey used more sophisticated GPS technology and got the readings professionally verified.

 * It would be great, if you could get the guys in Delhi to respond and cooperate, do keep trying. In a country that is becoming more technologically sophisticated, they cannot be doing themselves any long term favours by continuing to stone wall. Viewfinder 17:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Viewfinder: I will definitely update this page with the Ministry's responses. On another note, the Garmin E-Trex is exactly the same model I had mentioned in my email to Garmin support. How have you verified that it was never more than 30 feet out? Garmin support themselves claim it to be inaccurate to +\-150 feet. 203.199.136.65 11:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)Avinash Duduskar

 * Have you got a response from the Ministry? If so please share it! I claim "never more than 60ft out", based on comparison with reliable topographic mapping. All my readings are in Europe. Maybe it is less accurate in other parts of the world, but on the basis of other reported readings, I don't think it is much less accurate. In any case, the inaccuracies we are talking about are not really relevant to the discussion on this page because the summit sign claims Khardungla is about 800ft higher than it actually is. Viewfinder 12:55, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Viewfinder: I have not received an update from the Ministry. As I said before, I will definitely update this page with it when I do. You're right, the inaccuracies we speak of are not relevant here, I was curious about how you verified your altitudes. Hope to hear from me soon. Strykar 10:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)Avinash Duduskar - Strykar

 * The altitude was measured by DGPS, which is more accurate than hand held GPS, and verified by the ICC. It is consistent with reports from several other travellers including Bonington. Also I am not very happy with the link you created, I cannot find any photographs of the road from Leh to the pass, only photographs of the lying "18380 ft" sign, and the information in your FAQ section is incorrect. Apart from the wrong info about Khardung, you state that Taglung La (5,328 m) is the world's second highest motorable pass. That is nonsense. Another photograph, "board", showing pass distances, gives several heights but no height for Khardung, that is very interesting. Also why is it taking the ministry so long to reply? What is the problem?? Viewfinder 10:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I can see you're taking this personally. Shame. I am sure you have the most noble intentions when you want clarity on this issue. Have you (a)Been to Khardung La? (b)Is your Garmin E Trex the more accurate DGPS you speak of? You don't like the link I created? Shame again. The pages you attack state information based on the best of their knowledge. When someone I trust or myself, show me information (GPS or otherwise), they will be changed. The Ministry has not gotten back, and while not uncommon, they could be pressured with a local reporter going and asking the same question. Since I don't live in Delhi, I can't arrange for this to happen right away. To clear the air, I would be happy to see this issue closed ASAP. Take it easy. Don't be greasy. --Strykar 08:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)Avinash Duduskar

 * The DGPS is not my Garmin Etrex, it is a more accurate system used by a cyclist who has been to Khardung La, as stated in the links provided in the main article. There are also links in the main article to several other web reports written by travellers who have also been to Khardung La and measured it. I attack the Taglung La page because it states that it is the world's second highest motorable pass. Even if you deny there are higher passes in Tibet, you state on another page that Marsimik is the highest pass. But Khardung is also higher than Taglung, so Taglung cannot be second. Why does it take the guys at your ministry several months to close the issue by answering a simple question to which they know the answer? Is it because they do not want the world to know the answer? Is it because they do not want to implicitly admit that, for commercial and political reasons, they have been lying about the Khardungla road pass height for 30 years? With those summit signs photographed on your site, the lie continues. Viewfinder 13:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Viewfinder, I find it a bit queasy when you try to sound as if the ministry is doing a coverup job. But as an Indian I can tell you one thing that the bureaucracy in India is archaic and very, very slow to respond even to important matters. On such a trivial matter (for the government department) they would be least bothered about it unless one had "connections" or paid "something" to get the matter done quickly.

 * That this issue is still being debated shows why I said that these type of issues should be mentioned in a more encyclopedic tone and not outrightly covering up in the lead sentence. I have corrected that now. It includes what is believed and its counter sources and incorporates everything. We are not here to do original research and say for instance there indeed exists another earthlike planet in the solar system, but to merely guide the reader in the right direction. Idleguy 15:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

First - welcome back to this page. I had been wondering where you had gone. But I don't think this is a trivial matter, Khardungla is still being billed and sold as the highest motorable pass by commercial organisations. I accept your lead sentence edit but I have strengthened the verifiable fact (not POV or original research) in the next sentence. Viewfinder 18:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the welcome. :-) It might not be a trivial matter for a topography enthusiast like you but for the Government of India and the Babus who work there it might be. What I'm saying is the government machinery in India (like most developing nations) take their own sweet time to reply, especially when they have to do some work as in this case. Unless it was a matter of life or death, they hardly respond to individuals on height claims. Look from the perspective of a disinterested beurocrat and you'll understand. It seems nearly ok now as it mentions what is being claimed and what really is the height in the article.

 * GWR mentions that they don't have space to put all their records in their book or their site and many records are sometimes missing in both formats. So I've removed that one line. Idleguy 02:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello! The two Catalan men of the "pedals al cel" expedition have assured me that there are other mountain passes higher than Khardung La.--SMP - talk (en)  -  talk (ca)  09:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Gentlemen, how are all of you? I am finalising plans of going back to Ladakh and to Khardung La this July. If everything goes well, I will bring back numerous GPS readings to help shed some light on this in a few months.--Strykar 12:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I motorcycled up to Khardung La on 07 Sept 2007. I took two GPS devices with me. One was a Magellan Meridian which measured 5376M and the other was a Super Trackstick which measured 5381M. Neither claim to be the most accurate instruments on the market but I think this adds further weight to the validity of an 5359M elevation. For the record, Google earth now has satellite imaging of Khardung La and shows altitude of 5350M.Njb1969 10:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Thank you for this contribution. There are many GPS readings that support 5359m, but none whatsoever which support 18300ft (5602m). In this area, Google Earth altitudes are based on reliable SRTM data. Viewfinder 07:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

More misinformation
I am sorry that Indian sources such as this continue to make the claim that Khardungla is the world's highest motorable pass when it has been conclusively proved otherwise. It hardly helps to further India's claim to be an open and technologically advanced country. Viewfinder (talk) 09:58, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The world's highest motorable pass?
I note that the section with the above title has been tagged as possible WP:OR. The research was not mine, but unfortunately the website of the team that measured Khardung La and Semo La is no longer alive. I will try to find out what happened to it, but in the meantime Semo La can be checked out on Google Earth, where the elevation is accurately displayed, and there are satellite and ground photographs which show that there is a motorable road. Viewfinder (talk) 20:29, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Official height
Is there anyone out there who can supply verifiable evidence that the Indian government still officially upholds the 18380ft claim? If so, let them upload it instead of editing the article without adding sources and dismissing serial "amateur" GPS claims. You do not have to be a professional to read a GPS device. Incidentally local GDEM data are based on 22 stereo pairs of imagery. Also WP:OR claims are false because the original researchers who nailed the elevation lie have not edited the article. Viewfinder (talk) 12:14, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Incidentally I have seen a copy of official Indian 1:50,000 topographic mapping of the area, which upholds the 5359 metres measurement, not the claimed 5602 metres. Three separate satellite surveys do likewise. Viewfinder (talk) 09:44, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Khardung La


text:
Kiskunfélegyháza

Kiskunfélegyháza (Feulegaß) is a city in Bács-Kiskun County, Hungary.

Geography
Kiskunfélegyháza is located in the middle of the Great Hungarian Plain, 130 km southeast from Budapest. M5 motorway, Highway 5, 451, Budapest–Cegléd–Szeged railway line and railway lines to Szolnok, Kiskunhalas and Szentes also cross the town. The surrounding country is covered with vineyards, fruit gardens, and tobacco and corn fields.

Name
Félegyháza means "half church" in Hungarian, while prefix Kiskun refers to the region Kiskunság ("Little Cumania").

History
Numerous Roman urns and other ancient relics have been dug up in the vicinity.

Conquering Hungarians arrived in the 9th century, adopted Christianity and settled down in the region by the 10th century. The first settlements devastated by the Mongols in 1241–42, the region became uninhabited. King Béla IV invited Cuman settlers, who also adopted Christianity, farming lifestyle and the Hungarian language. The town was existing in 1389 when a document mentions Feledház, an earlier name for the settlement. The town was ruined in 1526 by Ottoman troops and was uninhabited until the Christian troops liberated the area.

Kiskunfélegyháza was reestablished by Roman Catholic Hungarian settlers from Jászfényszaru and Üllés in 1743. Queen Maria Theresa moved the courts and prisons for the Kiskun district to Kiskunfélegyháza in 1753 and granted town privileges also in 1774.

Notable people

 * Ferenc Móra (1879–1934), novelist
 * Béla Magyari (1949–2018), cosmonaut
 * Sándor Petőfi (1823–1849), national poet
 * László Réczi (1947), wrestler
 * Csaba Szűcs (1965), athlete
 * Gyula Zsivótzky (1937–2007), athlete
 * Tamás Sulyok (1956), lawyer, President of Hungary

Twin towns – sister cities
Kiskunfélegyháza is twinned with:

 * 🇫🇷 Bagnols-sur-Cèze, France
 * 🇩🇪 Braunfels, Germany
 * 🇷🇴 Corund, Romania
 * 🇫🇷 Die, France
 * 🇮🇹 Feltre, Italy
 * 🇭🇺 Jászfényszaru, Hungary
 * 🇷🇸 Kikinda, Serbia
 * 🇵🇱 Rabka-Zdrój, Poland
 * 🇷🇴 Sighișoara, Romania

 * 🇷🇴 Turda, Romania
 * 🇸🇰 Uhrovec, Slovakia

title: Kiskunfélegyháza


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vern Reid

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete. Redwolf24 02:00, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Vern Reid
Doesn't assert sufficient notability KeithD (talk) 11:29, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete—Appears to be vanity or fan zeal. --Tysto 16:40, 2005 August 18 (UTC)
 * Delete and recreate as redirect to Vernon Reid, the guitarist of Living Colour. -- Etacar11   23:20, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, not notable. --Anthony Ivanoff 10:06, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
1978 Upper Voltan presidential election

Presidential elections were held in the Republic of Upper Volta on 14 May 1978, with a second round on 28 May after no candidate won more than 50% in the first round. They were the country's first multi-party presidential elections, the previous elections in 1965 having Maurice Yaméogo as the sole candidate. They were also the first presidential elections held under a revised Constitution adopted a year earlier.

Incumbent president Sangoulé Lamizana ran as an independent with the support of the Voltaic Democratic Union–African Democratic Rally. Lamizana was the leading candidate in the first round, before winning with 56% of the vote in the second round. Voter turnout was 35% in the first round and 44% in the second.

Background
In 1966, Yaméogo was ousted after a general strike in opposition to his rule, and was replaced by a provisional military government led by Lamizana. In 1970, a new Constitution was ratified, which was later revised by a referendum held in 1977. The first parliamentary elections were held under the revised Constitution on 30 April 1978, with the first round of the presidential elections being held two weeks later.

title: 1978 Upper Voltan presidential election


text:
Talk:Platitude

McCain?
Why is the McCain reference in this page? If it does belong there, shouldn't it be under a subsection? If yes, then let's have a subsection under every word in the diciontary and call it "Words used by Presidential candidates in 2008"

I think the addition of that is a politically biased decision by the editor. I suggest the entire reference be removed. If no one responds here, I will assume that there is no objection, and go ahead and delete it.

Thanks for your time, guys

165.230.221.35 (talk) 00:50, 20 February 2008 (UTC)jazz

I second deletion of the McCain propaganda. Improperintegral (talk) 15:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

After 4 days of no oppositions from moderators (or otherwise), and support from Improperintegral, I will now delete the McCain propaganda. Thanks.

Elint6 (talk) 02:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)elint6

Examples Needed
It would help if we had some examples as to what a platitude is. Klichka (talk) 06:22, 7 July 2009 (UTC).

 * For example: When life gives you lemons... Make Lemonade!

 * I just deleted one given definition of "The attitude of a platypus". This is not Urbandictionary.com here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.166.82 (talk) 07:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Revert Previous Edit?
I think the edit by this user should be removed. The person who wrote this is obviously just trying to sneak a meme onto the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Platitude&diff=524865122&oldid=520786583

--96.22.158.132 (talk) 01:58, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I removed the edit as nobody objected.

--96.22.158.132 (talk) 22:05, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

The YOLO phrase came back in the April 5, 2013 edit.. I'll undo it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hydrospanner88 (talk • contribs) 16:44, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

YOLO is a platitude. "I know, right" however, is not, as it is honest about its meaninglessness.

Bu ney boyle
Bilgi 78.174.65.231 (talk) 18:32, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Example
"It really do be like that sometimes" is incorrectly referenced and does not appear on the reference. As an informal meme I'm not sure it belongs on this page. Foradon (talk) 16:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Platitude