text:
Talk:Ars Amatoria

Neutral, informative point of view
I brushed up a little for you guys. There is still a massive amount of work to be done. My editing skills are but average, so that's why you'll need to edit quite a bit until it's perfectly polished. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.199.17.123 (talk) 14:28, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Gay couples
Is it needful to say that the topic of the books is '(heterosexual) love and sex'? I know that it may not be politically correct, but heterosexuality is the unmarked form when referring to such things. It would only be notable to say if the books were about homosexual love and sex. I will make the changes. Oswax 07:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

It is needful to realise that homosexuality was not accepted back in 1 B.C, thus the book was only made for heterosexual couples, and whie it may mean both, it was meant for heterosexuals. not gays please do some research, and don't forget the rule: No unstated facts, or original research.--72.74.112.203 (talk) 00:25, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I would argue that it is needful given Ovid's particularly irregular damning of homosexuality within this poem. Compare this to his contemporary Martial who wrote many homosexual lines. Given the nature of Roman love and love poetry clarification that this directly applies to heterosexual love is important. Howtheocritushadsung (talk) 22:47, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Agree, since the other love poets conventionally include homoerotic material, though Ovid's "damning" is really not that. (Martial was not Ovid's contemporary, BTW.) I don't think he actually condemns homosexuality per se. It's simply his personal preference, and has a political dimension in that in Latin love poetry, the object of same-sex love among men was invariably a boy, and the relationship was quite unequal and often plainly exploitive, as the "boy" most often would've been a slave. So Ovid's affirmation of heterosexual love, as he explicitly states, is that real pleasure comes from loving an equal, not from using sex to express a domination paradigm. This is radical not only because of a distaste for power inequality (which is one of the ways in which Ovid may be viewed as expressing republican sympathies contra the new regime of the first emperor Augustus), but because he regards women as equals in the erotic relationship. Remember that this is the work that according to tradition (if not reality) got him exiled, in part because it encouraged women to be sexually independent. The IP is wrong to say that "it meant both," and is bafflingly wrong to say that homosexuality was not "accepted" in the 1st century BC, though homoeroticism was no longer idealized as it was in Classical Greece. It's a complicated issue that would get us off the subject here, since Ovid is not prescribing for same-sex relations. Though presumably many of his "tips" for seduction would work, to the extent that they work at all. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:42, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Banishment?
Why did this book cause Augustus to banish Ovid? Was it too pornagraphic? Was it offensive? I don't understand. Celsiana 00:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)  Celsiana,

Agustus was trying to reverse the declining morals of Rome, including all the extramarital sex Roman women were having. Roman men were expected to have sex with their babies, sex slaves, non-citizens, and of couse, their wives. Roman women were expected to tend to the household, and visit only their husband's beds.

The main problem with the book was that it contributed to the breakdown of morals by encouraging such perversions as Roman women having sex like Roman men. (Don't forget that one of the 'great' founding stories of Rome, was the mass rape and abduction of the Sabine women, their acquiesce, and eventual acceptence of their rapists as husbands. {I suspect to avoid war between Sabine and Rome.} I only mention this because I belive it helps to put the 'proper' view of a Roman woman into perspective.)

The Ars Amatoria was, of course, the most popular book of its time. Augustus was fighting a loosing battle, to the extent that, in an attempt to lead by example, he even disowned his sons and daughter for their loose morals.

But the main reason that Ovid was banished was probably the rumored affair that Ovid was having with Augustus' daughter, who I believe was exiled at the same time.

Or so sayth the History Channel. ;)

BB 04:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't the translation be posted in wikibooks instead of in wikipedia, since it is not a short piece? Rintrah 12:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The book doesn't belong in this article
It's not considered acceptable to quote enormous chunks of text as is being done in this article, the book needs to be moved to Wikisource or wikibooks. --Xyzzyplugh 14:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Please don't move to Wikisource until the translator is identified. This may be a violation of the translator's coyright.-- Birgitte§β  ʈ  Talk  19:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Hey! This is the only article in wikipedia written by Ovid. Rintrah 22:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Content section is highly opinionated.
I'm just a guest here on wikipedia, but I'm pretty sure that there is something wrong with the "content" section of the article. It is highly opinionated; the whole section is full of phrases that make it seem as though it was taken completely out of a review regarding the book. This page needs one of those boxes that informs readers that the page is highly opinionated (I apologize for not knowing the technical term). Please deal with this issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.175.54.101 (talk) 22:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Agreed, this section is written very oddly and should be rewritten in a more impartial tone. It’s also hard to parse at times- it should be more straightforward. Can someone familiar with this work please rewrite it? 2601:182:C00:10E0:2985:1FE7:FD28:8417 (talk) 03:18, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree completely, the content section is not at all NPOV and needs serious work to be anywhere near encyclopedia standards. Could someone please address this? 71.162.83.66 (talk) 05:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Ditto again. The middle paragraph under "reception" about Ovid's relegation and the role of his poetry in it does not represent the real variation of scholarly opinion on the matter; the idea that Ovid's own statement (carmen et error) is "inadmissable" as evidence (and "for many reasons", none of which are stated), is paradoxical at the least; indeed, the thrust of Ovid's defense to Augustus in Tristia 2 is all about poetry and censorship, which it makes little sense that Ovid would trump up this theme for a defense that was merely a literary exercise. Again, this section, along with the entire, article, needs more balance and less slanted POV.--69.136.99.25 (talk) 20:59, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the suggestion that Ars means textbook can stand. The first line, si quis in hoc artem populo non novit amandi, can hardly refer to a textbook.Seadowns (talk) 19:06, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

About the potency of the text
"Ovid hardly offers lore of great potency to his eager disciples," the article states. This is really down to how you interpret the "lore", and I do not think Wikipedia should be a text critic! There are many passages in this text that even the lovers of today may learn a great deal from! As for "brushing the dust off her gown" - this is simply a great way to instigate touch, without it being seen as impromptu. And being able to make a woman accept your touch is one of the first hurdles a lover must overcome. Thus I don't think it's bad advice at all! --Kebman (talk) 00:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC) (I just now saw that NPOV has already been discussed.)

NPOV dispute
In accordance with the above comments, I've added a POV template to the content section of this article. I will attempt to work on it myself, but it's going to need the eyes of more than one editor to attain neutrality. Amphy (talk) 20:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * After rereading the full article, I've noticed some other major NPOV issues in other sections of the article. I'm going to go ahead and place a full POV template at the top of the article until it can be resolved. Amphy (talk) 21:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Finally working on NPOV
I've finally started working on cleaning up the POV issues with this article. I could use some help, and I'd love if we could utilize some of the content from The Art of Love section on Ovid. I think we can also pull some sources from that page to help solidify info on Ovid's exile in relation to the Ars amatoria, as well as content on his meter (elegiac couplet) and his genre (love elegy). Perhaps we can also add some info on the preceeding Amores and Ovid's development of Ars amatoria from that. I am rereading my library's abridged version of The Art of Love but someone more familiar with the elegy is welcome to take a crack at this article. Amphy (talk) 03:31, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Lead and Body Issues
The lead currently states "It is about teaching basic Gentlemanly male and female relationship skills and techniques", which is not supported by the text. Gentlemanly, as defined in the wiki link is "good, courteous conduct". Ovid takes a cynical view of love and encourages making false promises ("If you are wise, practise deceit on women alone, for that you may do with impunity..."), adultery ("Be courteous to her husband too. Nothing could better serve your plans than to be in his good graces.") manipulation ("Tears, too, are a mighty useful resource in the matter of love"), trickery ("Let him think there's someone else with whom he has to share your charms. Some such tricks as these are needed"), and other dishonest actions which are the opposite of Gentlemanly. That word should be removed for inaccuracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NastyBrutishAndTall (talk • contribs) 23:44, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Body
The Body starts off with "The Ars amatoria can be called a burlesque satire on didactic poetry." Why is this considered burlesque satire, when the book was apparently written in earnest? Its seems odd to call it that without any verifiable citation.

Also, the book doesn't seem to match the definition of burlesque satire, which is defined in Resolution of the Debate in the Medieval Poem The Owl and the Nightingale, by Karen M. Gasser as "satire which diminishes its object through incongruous imitation."

("As Chiron was to Achilles, so I am to Cupid"—in other words, "I pacified the wild Cupid") - The first quote here is from the Art of Love, but where is the second quote from? It's not in my version of Art of Love.

Finally, the excepted quotes are presented without context as to the whole work.

Any issues with me doing some serious editing in regards to the above issues? NastyBrutishAndTall (talk) 23:55, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Publishing Date
The article states that the Ars amatoria was written in the year 2 AD, but the infobox says that it was published (ca.) 1 BC, which is three years before it is supposed to be written. 87.189.157.138 (talk) 13:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Quality of a source
The source for a quite important statement on the relevance/ value of the Ars Amatoria is the following: 'Dutton, Jacqueline, The Rape of the Sabine Women, Ovid Ars amatoria Book I: 101-134, master's dissertation, University of Johannesburg, 2005'. Is obscure Master's degree-level scholarship really sufficient to be used as a source for such a general yet authoritative-sounding statement as "It has been argued that this passage represents a radical attempt to redefine relationships between men and women in Roman society, advocating a move away from paradigms of force and possession, towards concepts of mutual fulfilment" in any Wikipedia article, let alone one about a work by so eminent a figure as Ovid?

NPOV disputed (still)
The paragraphs on the exile of Ovid and its relation to the writing of Ars Amatoria are highly opinionated, violating WP:IMPARTIAL, using terms such as "It is more probable that" and "it is hardly likely that" to describe the dispute. untitled 21:41, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ars Amatoria


text: Category:Wir sind Helden albums

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category:Wir sind Helden albums


text:
User:Cheetard

My ambition is to become either a mathematics or scientific teacher, as I am talented in the maths and sciences. I am currently trying to remove mistakes in wikipedia.

So far, I like this painting the best, The Scream

"I THINK, THEREFORE I AM"

title: User:Cheetard


text:
Öxará

Öxará (, "axe river") is a lake-to-lake river in Iceland in Þingvellir National Park, a tributary of Lake Þingvallavatn. It descends to the rift forming Öxarárfoss, a waterfall.

title: Öxará


text:
Philippe Emmanuel, Duke of Mercœur

Philippe-Emmanuel de Lorraine, Duke of Mercœur and of Penthièvre (9 September 1558, in Nomeny, Meurthe-et-Moselle – 19 February 1602, in Nürnberg) was a French soldier, a prince of the Holy Roman Empire and a prominent member of the Catholic League, who fought for Breton political independence from the House of Bourbon.

Life
Philippe-Emmanuel de Lorraine, Duke of Mercoeur was born on 9 September 1558 in Nomeny, France, the eldest surviving son of Nicholas, Count of Vaudémont and Jeanne de Savoie-Nemours. In 1575, Mercoeur married Marie de Luxembourg, daughter of Sébastien de Luxembourg, which, together with the title of Duc de Penthièvre, also brought him rights to the crown of the Duchy of Brittany. He was made a knight of the Order of Saint Esprit in 1578.

Rebellion in Brittany
In 1582, after the death of the Duke of Montpensier, he was made governor of Brittany by Henry III of France, who had married his half-sister. In 1588 Mercœur joined the Catholic League in Brittany, and had himself proclaimed protector of the Roman Catholic Church in the province.

His wife's family, the House of Penthièvre, were descendants of the House of Dreux as Dukes of Brittany. The House of Penthièvre had lost the dukedom of Brittany to the House of Montfort in the Breton War of Succession in the 14th century. They had subsequently attempted to overthrow the Montfortist Dukes, with no success. Claiming hereditary rights through his wife, Mercœur endeavoured to make himself independent monarch of the region, and organized a government at Nantes and naming his son "prince and duke of Brittany".

He formed an alliance with Spain and continued to press for his independence from France when the Huguenot Henry of Navarre converted to Catholicism and became King of France. King Henry IV of France sent a force against him led by the Duc de Montpensier. With the aid of the Spanish Royal Army, he defeated the French Royalist troops at the Battle of Craon in 1592. However, the royal troops were reinforced by English contingents and soon recovered the advantage. The king at last marched against Mercœur in person, but received his submission at Angers on 20 March 1598, the last member of the League to do so. King Henry IV assured his dynasty's future inheritance of Brittany by arranging the marriage of his illegitimate son, César Duc de Vendôme, to Mercœur's daughter Francoise.

Later years and death
Mercœur subsequently went to Hungary, where he entered the service of the emperor Rudolph II after answering the call to arms by the Holy Roman Emperor against the Ottomans He fought against the Turks, defeating the Ottomans twice at the siege of Albe-Royale (Székesfehérvár) in 1601. He died after falling sick while returning to Lorraine in 1602. On 27 April, a Requiem Mass was celebrated for him at Notre-Dame de Paris, with the eulogy delivered by St. François de Sales.

Family
Philippe married Marie de Luxembourg (1562–1623), Duchesse de Penthièvre and daughter of Sébastien, Duke of Penthièvre, on 12 July 1579 in Paris.

He had two children with Marie:

 * 1) Philippe Louis de Lorraine (21 May 1589 – 21 December 1590)
 * 2) Françoise de Lorraine, Duchesse de Mercœur et de Penthièvre (November 1592 – 8 September 1669, Paris) Françoise married César de Bourbon, duc de Vendôme, an illegitimate son of Henry IV of France at Fontainebleau on 16 July 1608.

title: Philippe Emmanuel, Duke of Mercœur


text:
Reflex camera

A reflex camera is a camera that permits the photographer to view the image that will be seen through the lens, and therefore to see exactly what will be captured, contrary to viewfinder cameras where the image could be significantly different from what will be captured.

Variations
A single-lens reflex camera typically uses a mirror and prism system (hence "reflex", from the mirror's reflection) to accomplish this. The mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera achieves the same result by providing the photographer with a digitally captured image. The twin-lens reflex camera provides both a viewfinder image by reflecting the image onto ground glass and an image through another lens to the film. The image exposing the film is not reflected.

title: Reflex camera


text:
Talk:Carlos Gardel

RfC: Gardel photographs in blog
Should the blog Gardel En Fotos be used in the Carlos Gardel article? It has been inserted to support the statement that Gardel's birth is still controversial. Binksternet (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

 * That blog was written in 2008, it's outdated with the recent discovery of his French birth certificate Cambalachero (talk) 15:32, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Birthplace: original research or book sources?

User:Zorzaluruguay has been adding text and images taken from a blog. The three images are shown here on the right. The purpose is to increase the focus on the notional Uruguayan birth of Gardel rather than the more reliably sourced French birth. I have repeatedly removed these changes per WP:RS and WP:NOR. Just today I removed all the blogs, no matter what they said, pro or con.

So what sources do we have? It turns out there have been some good books and scholarly articles written. The first source that is currently used in the article is from UNESCO's Courier, a peer-reviewed scholarly journal. Luis Bocaz says that the evidence is stronger for Toulouse, France, as Gardel's birthplace.
 * Bocaz, Luis (March 1986). "Tango Time", UNESCO Courier, p. 11.

Other sources:
 * Carlos Gardel: a la luz de la historia, by Nelson Bayardo and José Pedro Rilla. Biografías Aguilar, 2000. ISBN 9974653878. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
 * Carlos Gardel: el resplandor y la sombra, by Carlos Zinelli. Corregidor, 1987. (In Spanish.) This book discusses Toulouse and Tacuarembó.
 * Vida y milagros de Carlos Gardel, by Nelson Bayardo. Ediciones La República, 1988. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
 * The Life, Music, and Times of Carlos Gardel, by Simon Collier. University of Pittsburgh Press, 1986. ISBN 0822984989. This book describes the Toulouse birth and subsequent actions of Gardel's mother.
 * more to come... Binksternet (talk) 00:57, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Well done and agree. The sources need to to reliable and verifiable.MartinezMD (talk) 02:23, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Sources continued:
 * Carlos Gardel: el silencio de Tacuarembó, by María Selva Ortiz Bosc. Ediciones de la Plaza, 1995. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
 * Tacuarembó esquina Carlos Gardel, by Iris Sclavo, also known as Iris Sclavo Armán. Editorial Fin de Siglo, 1993. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
 * The Film Industry in Argentina: An Illustrated Cultural History, by Jorge Finkielman. McFarland, 2004. ISBN 0786416289. Pages 116–117 assert the Toulouse birth. No mention of Tacuarembó.
 * El tango: & la historia de Carlos Gardel, by Jorge Aravena Llanca. Lom Ediciones, 2003. ISBN 956282554X. (In Spanish.) This book says Toulouse is the birthplace, and tries to explain why and how the Tacuarembó story came to the fore.
 * La sonrisa de Gardel: Biografía, mito y ficción, by Jorge Ruffinelli. Ediciones Trilce, 2004. ISBN 9974323568. (In Spanish.) This book says Toulouse is the birthplace, and tries to explain why and how the Tacuarembó story came to the fore.
 * France and the Americas: Culture, Politics, and History, by Bill Marshall. ABC-CLIO, 2005. ISBN 1851094113. This encyclopedia says "Gardel was in fact born in Toulouse"; it does not mention Tacuarembó.
 * Gardel--: Es un soplo la vida: biografía íntima de Carlos Gardel, by Marily Contreras. Libros del Zorzal, 2005. ISBN 9871081626. (In Spanish.) This book describes in great detail the circumstances of the Toulouse birth. In 1914, men of French citizenship were being drafted for war against Germany. The book tells how Buenos Aires province police chief Cristino Benavidez solved the problem of Gardel's French citizenship by creating a false document setting his birth as 1887, a false year, and in Tacuarembó, Uruguay, a remote location unlikely to be checked against local records. (Simon Collier acknowledges this version but says it cannot be checked against hard facts. Collier gives these hard facts: Gardel first applied for Uruguayan citizenship in October 1920 when he was nearly 30 years old. In November 1920 he was issued a new Argentine ID card as a Uruguayan ex-patriot. On 7 March 1923 he applied for citizenship in Argentina. On 1 May 1923 he took the oath of Argentine citizenship.)
 * Necromanía, by Claudio Negrete. SUDAMERICANA, 2011. ISBN 9500737698. (In Spanish.) This book says Toulouse is the birthplace, and explains the Tacuarembó story in light of Gardel avoiding French military service.
 * Conociendo a Gardel, by Elsa Felder. Imaginador, 2006. ISBN 9507685588. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
 * Gardel, tango que me hiciste bien, by Miguel Arteche. Andres Bello, 1985. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
 * Gardel: páginas abiertas, by Eduardo Payssé González. Ed. de la Plaza, 2004. (In Spanish.) This book says Gardel avoided post-WWI retribution by France against French men who did not fight in the war, by claiming Uruguayan birth.
 * Repatriación de Gardel, by Ricardo A. Ostuni. Ediciones Corregidor, 1998. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
 * Carlos Gardel : biografía autorizada, by Eliseo Alvarez. De la Urraca, 1995. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy; it seems sympathetic to Tacuarembó but points out that Gardel testified in writing in 1931: "I am French, born in Toulouse, 11 December 1890, son of Berthe Gardés."
 * Historia artística de Carlos Gardel: estudio cronológico, by Miguel Angel Morena. Ediciones Corregidor, 1985. (In Spanish.) This book says the Toulouse birth is "perfectly established" and that the Tacuarembó documentation was created as a false trail.
 * Por siempre, Carlos Gardel, by Augusto Fernández. Ediciones Latinprens Latinoamericanas, 1973. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
 * Gardel: la verdad oculta, by Gerardo Bra. Corregidor, 1995. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.

Various books quote Gardel speaking about his nationality, and he is all over the map. He says one thing to one audience and another thing to another audience. He is cagey: he says his nationality is "the Tango", or that he is Rioplatense (from the great Plate River delta region including Buenos Aires and Montevideo.) He says he was born in Toulouse, he says he was born in Tacuarembó, he says he is Argentine. Certainly, we are able to note these quotes but we cannot use any of them for leverage to decide the matter of birthplace. Binksternet (talk) 05:14, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Dear Binksternet,

Gardel never said he was born in France. He was never quoted by any newspaper as saying so. He was quoted many times stating that he was born in Tacuarembo. Why? I don't know and don't care. If there's any subtatiated evidence that he was born Charles Gardes in Toulousse, and by the way not the one born in South America in the mid 1870's nor the one who died at 28 during WWI, then let some one provide it.

I do not ask for one theory to be placed over the other, just to allow them growing space. I would honestly like to see intelligent discussion on this point, unfortunately all documentation put through that he was born in Uruguay is dismissed has forged by Mr. Gardel and left at that, Bocaz's own argument is a one liner stating that he was born in France based on documentation (unvalidated evidence). I would like to know what these assertions are based on, the only documentation put through has been hearsay and some books that reference each other. If they are satisfied with work of that quality then thats fine by me and I personally would not want to contest it.

I know wikipedia is not the place were this issue is going to be resolved, so what I ask for is this, let the people who believe he was indeed born in France to say so, and let the people who believe otherwise to do so. Provided all can state the documentation, but please keep in mind that all the documentation thats showned as valid all back, subjectively, one side of the story.

kind regards, --Zorzaluruguay (talk) 13:21, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia follows its own WP:Neutral point of view policy, a core content guide that must be followed. The NPOV policy "means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." The first thing to notice in that policy is "proportionately", which tells us to give the proper proportion to conflicting theories. The Uruguay theory exists, but it is described and dismissed by so many of the Gardel biographers. The main body of Gardel scholars accepts that he was born in Toulouse, France. The second thing to notice is the part about "published by reliable sources". We will give a detailed account of the Uruguay theory by referring to reliable sources published about the Uruguay theory. We will not argue the case here, nor will we lay out all the evidence in an artificially neutral manner. The two theories are not equal, so allowing them equal coverage would be wrong. Binksternet (talk) 14:25, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Binksternet, i do not agree that providing documented proof of Mr. Gardel's POB creates an artificial neutral environment. The not acceptance of these documents clearly shows an undisguised bias towards those who shout the loudest. When my first edits were questioned, they were removed and I was asked to include citations following wikipedia's guidelines. I've include citations that not only strictly followed these guidelines but also allowed the best possible definition of source and context. The piece of work, the creator and the publisher all are governments (Argentina and France). The context of the citations can't be questioned as they are simple governmental documents that testify to the identity of an individual. Additionally, these documents are the foundation of Mr. Gardel's argentine naturalization. If these documents are contested, then proof should at least be presented.

Regarding proportionallity, I won't argue there, I will comply and begin compiling all work related to Gardel during his lifetime. These include official documents, articles written about him and interviews published in several newspapers of note (from several continents). These outnumber by a wide margin the few books regarding the second theory.

--Zorzaluruguay (talk) 16:08, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

 * You are welcome to bring information to the article. At some point, the amount of information devoted to Uruguay as a birthplace will cross a threshold of undue weight, and any further information will be removed. That threshold is a judgment call—I am leaning toward severity but others might be more lenient. No matter what changes you make, the article will always need to tell the reader that the mainstream opinion of scholars is that Gardel, informally called "El francesito" (Frenchie) by his barra (group of male friends), was born in France. WP:NPOV requires no less. Binksternet (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

It is not the mainstream of scholars that believe he was born in Toulouse, it is the mainstream of scholars that you are allowing to be referenced. What you are doing constitutes censorship.

--Zorzaluruguay (talk) 12:42, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

 * You have not proven your point. You have not shown a long list of books saying Gardel was born in Uruguay. Binksternet (talk) 15:30, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

I have proven my point, I'll clarify in case you missed it. I really do not care where the man was born. I know that there are two theories, and wanted to show the documentation that backs them. --Zorzaluruguay (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Birth certificate.
The mystery has been solved: Gardel was French. --190.19.96.181 (talk) 14:28, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That news item quotes a book that we already have in the article as a reference:
 * In the news article, I like the photo of the authors. Binksternet (talk) 15:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The book referenced in the article is not the same (that one is 6 years old, and this one just came out). The new book (by the same authors) is called "El padre de Gardel" (Gardel's Father), edited by Proa/Amerian Editores. --Nazroon (talk) 16:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. I am looking forward to the new book. Binksternet (talk) 18:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually it's a different book, called El padre de Gardel and published by Proa Amerian Editores. Most importantly, unlike Carlos Gardel: Sus Antecedentes Franceses it contains conclusive evidence of his birth certificate, showing that his real name, Charles Romuald Gardes, was recorded on December 11, 1890 at the register office in Toulouse, France. --190.19.96.181 (talk) 18:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually it's a different book, called El padre de Gardel and published by Proa Amerian Editores. Most importantly, unlike Carlos Gardel: Sus Antecedentes Franceses it contains conclusive evidence of his birth certificate, showing that his real name, Charles Romuald Gardes, was recorded on December 11, 1890 at the register office in Toulouse, France. --190.19.96.181 (talk) 18:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

December 2013

Can anyone prove that a child born in Tolouse with a name similar ( but not the same) to another child born in Tacuarembo three years earlier, are in fact the same child? or can we also start pulling birth certificates of other children born around the same time with similar names and claim that they are in fact the same Carlos Gardel that has several documents stating his birth place as Tacuarembo, same documents that contain his fingerprints and picture. Why would the French be proud of a person that was a fraudster that did not want to fight for his supposed country? I rather would keep Gardel in history as an honest Uruguayan than a coward, fraudster French. Wouldn't you? He is too big for any of us to be treated with such a disrespect. Gabriel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.9.43.128 (talk) 22:35, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Tacuarembo steps
The article says "for unknown reasons he laid a false trail about his birthplace beginning in 1920 when he was almost 30" and "there is no agreement regarding why he took these steps" (i.e. saying that he was born in Tacuarembó). I think it is worth the mention that the opinion of the majority of the scholars is that he did that to avoid being forced to join the military for France, in WWI. The latest book, which confirms his French nationality (link in section "Birth certificate" right up this section), acknowledges this. --Nazroon (talk) 15:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

 * I agree. Binksternet (talk) 15:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure where to place this as reference. It is an article of El Pais, after the birth certificate issue, which argues for the Uruguayan position. http://www.elpais.com.uy/121021/pespec-670872/espectaculos/-nos-contaron-algo-que-no-tiene-nada-que-ver-con-gardel-/ Cheers, Hoverfish Talk 10:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

"Origin"
Is "Origin" necessary in the Info Box? Is this a legitimated category? Is this a common category? Tapered (talk) 00:15, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

 * See Template:Infobox musical artist. The "origin" parameter is commonly used to show the difference between where a singer was born and where he first became famous. Gardel is a prime example of someone who did not become famous in the place where he was born. Binksternet (talk) 01:40, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Go to the first source
I know about the controversy about Gardel's nationality. At least include the fact that there is a Carlos Gardel´s Museum in Uruguay with documents, including his birth certificate that proves that he was born in Uruguay. Does it make any sense?

http://www.tacuarembodigital.com.uy/gardeliana_museo.html Tacuarembo Digital.com.uy You can see the photographs of the documents that proves his Uruguayan origin.

I know many people have visited the museum and seen the documents. Do you want me to upload a photograph of his birth certificate in commons?

User:Roxyuru —Preceding undated comment added 03:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

 * The certificate on display in Uruguay is not original, not written when he was born. Gardel obtained a new birth certificate in 1920 when he was beginning to get famous, when he was thinking about touring France as a tango singer. Binksternet (talk) 04:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

 * He also misses the point that Gardel's own trusted attorney released Gardels' statement about his birth and later historians verified it with the corroborating birth certificate in France. There is also an entire section in the article reviewing the controversy. It doesn't need to have an edit war. MartinezMD (talk) 22:59, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

"As dead as Gardel"
In Ernesto Mallo's crime novel Needle in a Haystack, set in the 1970s, the protagonist, when asked if someone is dead, replies "As dead as Gardel". Is this a frase hecha in Argentine Spanish, or is just a bit of noirism? Diomedea Exulans (talk) 08:44, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Argentinian DNI said Gardel was Uruguayan born in Tacuarembó
The DNI of Carlos Gardel in Argentina said that Gardel was Born in Tacuarembó in December 11 of 1887, and have his fingerprint, this is the articule that Martina Iguñez from Argentina show the DNI http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/polemica-exhiben-cedula-carlos-gardel.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santiis2010 (talk • contribs) 14:13, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Do you read the entire talk page above this section? Much of the information is discredited as coming long after his birth. For now the UNESCO source is considered the most reliable.MartinezMD (talk) 14:33, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Born place: NO Neutral
I'm Roblespepe, founder of the Tango Project at the Wikipedia in Spanish, and one of the main editors of Carlos Gardel page in the Wikipedia in Spanish. I saw that Gardel's page at the Wikipedia in English says that was born in Uruguay. This statment is wrong, because that fact is discused between tango researchers. Some of them sustain that Gardel was born in Uruguay between 1883 and 1887, and some of them sustain that Gardel was born in France in 1890. The former theory is called "teoría uruguayista" (Uruguayist Theory), and the later is called "teoría francesista" (Francesist Theory).

"Francesist Theory" is the traditional theory. Researchers who sustain this theory are: Francisco García Jiménez-José Razzano, Simon Collier, Julián & Osvaldo Barsky, Augusto Fernández, Carlos Esteban, Monique Ruffié, Georges Galopa, Christiane Bricheteau, Raúl Torre, Juan Fenoglio, Enrique Espina Rawson, Norberto Regueira, etc.

"Uruguayist Theory" appeared in 1967. Researchers who sustain this theory are: Erasmo Silva Cabrera (Avlis), Blas Matamoro, Nelson Bayardo, Eduardo Payssé González, Martina Iñíguez.

So I think this article must say that there are two theories, following the neutral point of view principle.--Roblespepe (talk) 15:09, 23 October 2015 (UTC).

The article already covers the birthplace controversy in detail and has an ENTIRE SECTION dedicated to that. The UNESCO report was very well researched and is reliable. To add or to alter the existing article takes sources of equal or greater credibility and should be noted with the changes. In addition, your latest changes deleted uncontroversial information like the his death date from the info box, and the fact that he later obtained Argentine citizenship. I've reverted the article back to where it was and we can all review the information here.MartinezMD (talk) 15:42, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

 * Ok Martinez. Fair enough. The main discussion between "francesistas" and "uruguayistas" researchers is limited to four elements:
 * a) Birth name: Uruguayistas say that his born name was Carlos Gardel. Francesistas say that his born name was Charles Gardes.
 * b) Birthplace: Uruguayistas say that the born place was Tacuarembó, Uruguay. Francesistas say that the born place was Toulouse, France.
 * c) Nationality up to 1923: Uruguayistas say that he born Uruguayan. Francesistas say that he born French.
 * d) Birthday: Francesistas say that he was born on December 11 1890. Uruguayistas also say that he was born on December 11, but they desagree with the year. Different Uruguayistas researchers sustain different years, from 1883 to 1887.
 * So my proposal is to put both controversial data. What do you think?--Roblespepe (talk) 03:14, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

 * The article's baseline, by the way, lists France as his birthplace, not Uruguay. If you saw Uruguay it is from anonymous editors who keep changing it. The sources in the article say that Gardel himself wrote in his last will that he was Gardes. The UNESCO report says he is French. Then decades after his death, in 2012, his birth certificate was found confirming the information.
 * There is very poor documentation supporting the Uruguayan version of his birth. Based on the sourced information in the article, he is French. To list Uruguay I believe would give undue weight to those lesser sources.
 * Lastly, I will support whatever reliable sources state. That is the main criteria. MartinezMD (talk) 04:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Martínez, as Wikipedians it's not our role to be jugdges of the discussions between tango researchers, and Wikipedia isn't the place to discuss seriously this toppic. The fact is that there are two points of view, both of them with several researchers and publications, and that the tango academic community is divided. So the Wikipedia article must say that, in these aspects (birthday year, birth place and birth name) there are two points of view. In other hand Wikipedia can't support one of them, or say -as you suggest- that the Uruguayan theory has "very poor documentation supporting". That's completley out of our role here. Kind regards. --Roblespepe (talk) 20:30, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * PS: Martínez. I have now one doubt. You talked about "reliable sources". I'm confused. Had you or hasn't you read the main books published by the Uruguayans theory reserchers? I assumed that you had because you talked about the documentation, but now I'm not sure.--Roblespepe (talk) 20:36, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I've read the sources on both sides. I read all the sources listed in the article to be specific, although I could likely use a review to refresh my memory because it has been a while. I think perhaps I find more likely the French theory because his Uruguayan birth certificate was not obtained until he was in his 20s, not at the time of his birth, and the will that was released after his death and the French birth certificate support the French origin along with the UNESCO article. I'll defer to a consensus on this, but I thought that had already been obtained in the past and periodically editors newer to article will come in and change it. Then a new series of debates starts all over.MartinezMD (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

 * OK, Martinez, I can see that you are not neutral in this point, because you are in favour of the French Theory. Of course I respect you, in the same way I respect any other editor supporting the Uruguayan Theory. But what I'm saying is that Wikipedia must be neutral. It's one of the pillars of Wikipedia. So it isn't correct to say, in the Wikipedia article, that de French Theory is the true theory. Because there is no consensus about that. The article must say that there are two theories, and that the researchers are divided. None of them is majority, so we have to respect the current state of the research. The two theories have their arguments and their failures, and there is no conclusive document. There is no Uruguayan birth certificate (in fact, the Uruguayan Theory has several hypothetical birtyh years, from 1883 to 1887). The French certificate is real without any doubt, but it's about Charles Gardes, and the Uruguayan Theory says that Carlos Gardel and Charles Gardes where not the same person. The Gardel's will is also real, but it was signed the day he leave Argentina, with a lot of questions about who wrote it and with what intention. The school registers are also very controversial, specially the photograph that his mother (Berta) had in her house, showing a strange building that has no correspondence with any school building in Buenos Aires, but perhaps a big correspondence with a school placed at Montrevideo. So the fact is that each document or argument of one side is contested by another argument/document from the other side. What I'm propossing to you is to be neutral, and to not take one side as true, at least in the Wikipedia article. I think this position is only one that corresponds to Wikipedia's neutral point of view principle. Hoping you can accept my propossal. Kind regars, --Roblespepe (talk) 13:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't have a preference for him to be from one place or another. On that I am truly neutral. We must consider if some information provides undue influence or not. What I want is lasting consensus that provides article stability. Look at the history of the article and the talk page archives. Did you read those? This debate and the associated changes have been ongoing for almost 10 years on WP and it is not good from an academic standpoint in my opinion.MartinezMD (talk)

 * Ok Martínez. I think we agree that both theories are only that, "theories". None of them can claim to be truth. In the Spanish Wikipedia we solved the conflict in a very simple and neutral way: saying that there are two theories. So we don't took any side.
 * Birth place: Tacuarembó (Ur. th) / Toulouse (Fr. th)
 * Real name: Carlos (Ur. th) / Charles Romuald Gardes (Fr. th)
 * Birth day: December 11th (both theories)
 * Birth year: 1883-1887 (Ur. th) / 1890 (Fr. th)
 * --Roblespepe (talk) 22:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with that. If you want to make those changes I can support it.MartinezMD (talk) 07:29, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok Martínez. Glad to share with you this debate.--Roblespepe (talk) 05:50, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry to have missed this discussion from late October. is correct that there are two theories but unfortunately for Uruguayans the France theory has the backing of scores of academics while the Uruguay theory has false evidence and impartial advocacy. The France theory is so far out in front of the Uruguay theory that it would be violation of WP:WEIGHT to give Uruguay so much validity. Binksternet (talk) 18:46, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Hi Binkesternet. ¿Why do yo say that? Both sides say that the other has false evidence. Very few academics has investigated the facts. For the French Theory: Augusto Fernández, Monique Ruffié, Georges Galopa, Christiane Bricheteau, Raúl Torre, Juan Fenoglio, Enrique Espina Rawson and Norberto Regueira. For the Uruguayan Theory: Erasmo Silva Cabrera, Blas Matamoro, Nelson Bayardo, Eduardo Payssé González, Martina Iñíguez and Ricardo Casas. Both sides have their strong points and their weak points, and both sides has refuted the other side arguments. I read all the books from both sides, and have a very good panorama of them. If you have any doubt, I'll be glad to analize it carefully with you. All I know is that the dispute is far from being solved, and that the born place of Gardel is full of dark aspects and non answered questions. I strongly recomend that Wikipeia must give all the information about the two theories, but without saying that one or the other is better. Kind regards Bink...--Roblespepe (talk) 20:44, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Sorry, but no. The scholarly case is carried by those who say Gardel was born in France. The great majority of high quality sources are in agreement on this point. In the article, we say "Scholars such as Vanderbilt University history professor Simon Collier, University of Belgrano agriculture history professor Osvaldo Barsky and Uruguayan history professor Jorge Ruffinelli from Stanford University write about how Gardel was born in Toulouse, France, in 1890, and how he laid a false trail about his birthplace beginning in 1920, when he was almost 30."  Those who say Uruguay are in the minority. UNESCO wanted to answer the question so they analyzed the research by both sides and determined that the France theory was much more sound. Binksternet (talk) 03:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Binkesternet. None of them investigate the place where Gardel was born. The researchers who investigate the place where Gardel was bor are:

 * French theory: Augusto Fernández, Carlos Esteban, Monique Ruffié, Georges Galopa, Christiane Bricheteau, Raúl Torre Juan Fenoglio, Enrique Espina Rawson, and Norberto Regueira.
 * Uruguayan theory: Erasmo Silva Cabrera, Blas Matamoro, Nelson Bayardo, Eduardo Payssé González, Martina Iñíguez.
 * About Collier. When he wrote Gardel's biography the research about the born place of Gardel was not done. It's real that there are a little more researchers from France and Argentina, than from Uruguay. But you have to have in mind, that Uruguay is a very very little country (3 million inhabitants). And in the last years, some historians, like Martia Iñiguez, who use support the French theory, change her mind, and now she is supporting Uruguayan theory.
 * Binkesternet, I'm not supporting one or the other theory. Is not my role. But I have studied carefully both research works, and I can assure you that there is no such a thing like a "great majority of quality source". Kind regards.--Roblespepe (talk) 22:30, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok. I put it clear who are the researchers on both theories. ¿There are no devolutions?--Roblespepe (talk) 19:08, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

 * There aren't two theories. There's a birth certificate in Toulouse. If you read the 1986 UNESCO Courier article, the birth certificate was already a known document—so well known that Toulouse held a 1985 event to commemorate the 50th anniversary of El Mudo's death. There are photos of Gardel with the Gardes extended family in France. His 1890 birth in Toulouse is a stone cold fact—unless you operate in an alternate universe.The theory of Uruguayan origin is fantastic—in the literal sense of the word. In contravenes tangible reality. All the noise, wasted paper and server capacity in the world can't alter terrestrial reality. For the record, any ostensible documents supporting Gardel's Uruguayan origins are, by definition, forgeries. Tapered (talk) 23:46, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Gardel is Uruguayan not Argentine
Hola buenas tardes le pido porfavor que quité que Gardel es argentino nonlo es es uruguayo y ay pruebas de su nacimiento en Uruguay. Lucio259 (talk) 19:50, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Perdón el autocorrector lo que decir es que Gardel es uruguayo no Argentino* Lucio259 (talk) 19:51, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Porfavor quien que es Aventino no Lo es Lucio259 (talk) 19:52, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

 * Sorry, but the Uruguayan evidence is false, and the French evidence is fully established. Binksternet (talk) 21:06, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
 * [En español: Lo siento mucho, pero la evidencia uruguaya es falsa, y la evidencia francesa está completamente establecida.] Por favor, lea la sección "Birthplace controversy".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 23:10, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

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 * Carlos Gardel Abasto Buenos Aires.jpg

There is a case at the DRN regarding this page.
This message is to inform interested editors of a discussion at the Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding the birthplace of Gardel. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. Any editors are welcome to add themselves as a party, and you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is "Carlos Gardel". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 07:01, 12 May 2020 (UTC) (DRN Volunteer)

 * The editor who opened the DR has not been responsive, so the DR case is being closed and an RFC will be opened in a few minutes. Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 23:10, 14 May 2020 (UTC) DRN Volunteer

RFC Date/Place of birth
This dispute is originating from the DRN (Case Dispute_resolution_noticeboard) which has been closed due to the opening case editor being non-responsive. There is a controversy on the date and place of birth. Thanks! Galendalia CVU Member \ Chat Me Up 23:15, 14 May 2020 (UTC) DRN Volunteer
 * I think that the Birthplace controversy explains the controversy. The preponderance of the current verification indicates that Gardel was born in France. There are 17 citations in all in this section.
 * I have also read a Google translation of the Spanish version & looked at the original, for which the corresponding section is Controversias sobre su lugar de nacimiento (Controversies over his birthplace). There appears to be 17 citations in the section on France & 17 citations in the section on Uruguay.
 * Additionally, I have read a Google translation of the French version & looked at the original, for which the corresponding section is Controverse sur son lieu de naissance (Controversy over his place of birth). This is not as well documented, with about three citations in the France section & four in the Uruguay section.
 * I would appreciate it if someone who could read Spanish, French, & English well could examine all the available citations. My English-centric US education did not prepare me well for this task, & I am able to read Spanish & French only at a very basic level.
 * I will note that both the Spanish & French versions take an "Either/Or" approach, listing both possible birth places & birth dates, while at the same time appearing to lean to the French birthplace & birthdate. Perhaps we should consider the same for the English version, at least until DNA testing establishes more certainty.
 * Peaceray (talk) 05:49, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I skimmed them both. For the Spanish-language article, there are few sources online that are reliable; this is a blog I don't know the origin, but it was written by Juan Carlos Esteban, which has written about Gardel. For the French version, it starts with le professeur Christiane Bricheteau prouve de façon irréfutable les origines toulousaines de Carlos Gardel (the professor Christiane Bricheteau irrefutably proved the Toulousian origins of Gardel); however, there are five sources, two offline, a blog, a reliable source, and this link hosted by the National University of San Luis, which has photocopies of Gardel's French birth certificate. © Tb hotch ™ (en-3). 20:35, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

There was a second plane
The account of Gardel's death mentions several others who were on the plane with him. There is, however, no mention of the other plane and the deaths that occurred there. A total of seventeen persons died, including Lester W. Strauss, an American mining engineer on that other plane.  The indifference of the account of Gardel's death to those on the other plane whose lives were also lost is unfortunate and warrants correction by persons able to add some account of them. [Lester W. Strauss, I should say, was my grandfather; my father Simon D. Strauss learned of his death in the Times, reading it on Broadway; it is not that he, specially, warrants mention, but attention to the deaths on only one plane, as it no others were worthy of mention, is unfortunate] Plsathome (talk) 13:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 * The involvement of a second plane is clearly relevant to the article. As for who should be mentioned in the article, that is strictly an issue of notability WP:NOTE. I just got Collier's book and will be reading it to see what it mentions as well. MartinezMD (talk) 01:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe that mention of other deaths should be based only on "notability." People who are not "celebrities" deserve respect in death also. The accident is notable, and everybody whose identity is known should be mentioned. Presumably this is not a gossip column, it is an encyclopedia, so it's entries should be "encyclopedic." That is, all known information on a topic should be included.

On a related topic, do we know that both aircraft were Ford Tri-motors? I seem to recall reading that Gardel's plane was a Fokker tri-motor, and that the other plane was another type of aircraft. Also, weren't the pilots of Gardel's plane American? These are interesting details which should be researched and included if true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.183.27.92 (talk) 05:36, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 June 2021
Most likely, Gardel was born in Tacuarembó (Uruguay). The controversy surrounding his birth place can be found here: https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Gardel#Controversias_sobre_su_lugar_de_nacimiento 104.138.184.82 (talk) 18:16, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  Mel ma nn   18:21, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

 * The idea is ridiculous that the Spanish-language version of this article is somehow superior. That article is in the grip of editors who believe the falsehoods about Tacuarembó, and who do NOT believe serious scholarly authors and larger scholarly organizations who have all confirmed Toulouse, France.
 * Rather than bringing some of Spanish-language Wikipedia here, we should organize an intervention there, to stop the nonsense. Binksternet (talk) 19:36, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2021
Carlos Gardel was actually born in Tacuarembó Uruguay. It was proven by finding his birth certificate which said he was born in Uruguay. 2800:A4:16FD:E800:78B9:75FC:9FA2:5588 (talk) 23:08, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. This entire talk page seems to be dedicated to this topic so far, edit requests aren't for controversial changes, and we need reliable sources for this, which so far have not surfaced. If you have one, feel free to include it here.  ASUKITE  23:39, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

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 * Carlos Gardel, Argentine tango singer, portrait.jpg (discussion)
 * Gardel-Silva-1923.jpg (discussion)

Wrong
Carlos gardel was born in tacuarembò uruguay and we have documents to prove it ! This wikipedia is false, you should say the truth and this is not. 2A00:23EE:1430:607E:A05A:1583:18F0:3459 (talk) 18:50, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

 * There has been much discussion of this at Talk:Carlos Gardel/Archive 1 & above on this page. You have provided no documents. Without verification from reliable sources, you might as well spit into the wind. If you have documents to prove it, then please provide them. Peaceray (talk) 19:36, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2023
Change Carlos Gardel was a french born argentine singer to Carlos Gardel was a Uruguayan singer as stated by multiple books with supporting evidence such as Gardel es uruguayo bayardo. 2800:AC:4023:A6F:8131:A895:6881:30FA (talk) 18:48, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

 * No. This has been asked and answered numerous times. Read above in the talk page and archive. MartinezMD (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Gardel's birthplace and neutral point of view
This article is biased, because the question about the birthplace of Carlos Gardel is not solved yet, in my opinion. Scheridon (talk) 16:39, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your opinion. Wikipedia uses WP:SECONDARY sources rather than the opinions of editors.
 * The birthplace controversy is a manufactured issue, created in the 1960s by writer Erasmo Silva Cabrera. Cabrera's assertions were expanded upon by other writers who wanted to sell books and make money, and didn't mind publishing falsehoods. Cabrera's version of things was proved entirely wrong in 2012 when Gardel's French birth certificate was authenticated. That's why this article is so emphatic about the France birthplace. Unfortunately, editors at Spanish-language Wikipedia are ruled by a clique of Uruguayan believers, which means the Spanish-language biography gives a false balance while this English one assigns accurate weight to each source, presenting the most neutral version of things. Binksternet (talk) 17:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

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 * Carlos Gardel - Cheating muchachita (Amargura)(1934.ogg
 * Carlos Gardel-Recuerdo malevo (1933).ogg
 * Carlos Gardel-Sus ojos se cerraron (1935).ogg

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Tenor or baritone? Both?
Some sources call him a tenor, many call him a baritone, and one or two sources describe him as a combination, commenting on his wide range.
 * Edmundo E. Eichelbaum's 1985 book Carlos Gardel says, "Con un caudal de voz más bien reducido, emplea con sumaria habilidad el falsete. (With a rather reduced volume of voice, he uses the falsetto with great skill.) "Carlos Gardel es un tenor que se acerca al barítono." (Carlos Gardel is a tenor close to baritone.) "Su registro es mucho más amplio, porque puede llegar desde el contralto (en falsete) hasta notas bien graves." (His range is much broader, because it can come from alto in falsetto to very low notes.)
 * Simon Collier in The Life, Music, and Times of Carlos Gardel (1986), wrote in a footnote on page 315 that Gardel's New York radio appearances were announced as "Carlos Gardel – baritone." Collier notes on page 155 that Gardel's voice teacher, Eduardo Bonessi, described Gardel as having "a brilliant baritone register" with a range of two octaves. Throughout the book, Collier describes Gardel as a baritone.
 * Eliseo Alvarez wrote in Carlos Gardel: biografía autorizada (1995) that Gardel had "cuerdas vocales de excepción que le permitían, siendo barítono extenderse a registros propios de un tenor o un bajo." (Exceptional vocal cords that allowed him, being a baritone, to extend to registers typical of a tenor or a bass.) See page 71.
 * Harry Milkewitz wrote in Psicología Del Tango (1964) that Gardel's range stretched from "tenor a barítono, canta con un afrancesado 'vibratto', con una impostación densa, y un fraseo lento y modulado..." (Tenor to baritone, singing with a French 'vibrato', with a dense delivery, and a slow and modulated phrasing..."

I don't think we can fairly represent Gardel by just saying "tenor". Binksternet (talk) 13:28, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Fair enough. How about using your own edit summary and say He was known for his rich voice, described as "tenor close to baritone", and dramatic phrasing. MartinezMD (talk) 16:50, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Good suggestion. Before I saw your response, I threw in a similar solution describing him variously as a baritone or tenor because of his wide vocal range. See which one works better. Binksternet (talk) 19:03, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * this works fine for me. No objection. MartinezMD (talk) 01:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Carlos Gardel


text:
Talk:Writing on the wall

Question about spelling: Some other articles (and redirect here) mention the phrase ending with "upharsin", not "parsin". So which one is correct? Samohyl Jan 07:27, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Writing on the wall


text:
User:Delphicoracle

Hiya

title: User:Delphicoracle


text:
Talk:Richard Corliss

Comment
I edited one sentence from the article, which was the following: "He has been known to show favoritism to left-wing cinema, while inserting his own right-bashing agenda in the process." I ran out of space, but it was clearly an unsubstantiated claim made I believe by someone with an ax to grind, and I removed it because there was no cited basis in fact for such a statement.Cvbear 20:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Made one last removal, of the following vandalism: "he is a fine example of Richard's professionalism - http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1640053,00.html, in this wonderful review he couldn't get the voice actors name right, or the lead actor's name right and he clearly didn't pay any attention at all to the movie he was supposed to be reviewing, for a "professional" this a low class piece of rubbish that deserves to be the end of his career." Cvbear 20:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Quotes
May I ask why the "Mausoleum air ..." quote is repeated? Frank Landsman (talk) 15:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Add to Conflict and criticism
TIME critic raves for the "Observe & Report" rape scene http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2009/04/time-critic-raves-for-the-observe-report-rape-scene.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.117.30 (talk) 02:27, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Este sujeto R. Corliss carece de credibilidad. Lo prueba la absurda lista de sus 100 mejores películas de la historia. Está loco o es un ignorante.

R. Corliss lacks credibility. We tested his absurd list of 100 best movies of history. He is crazy or ignorant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.240.85.46 (talk) 13:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Richard Corliss


text:
User talk:Delphicoracle

Hello? Is anyone there?

Spurious template
Please stop adding nonsense to Wikipedia. It is considered vandalism. If you were just trying to experiment, then use the sandbox instead. Thank you. Fire Star 07:34, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely. Rhobite 07:38, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Delphicoracle


text:
User talk:Roger Hicks

If you are fed up with Wikipedia's VFD you may like to read User:Wikinerd/JnanaBase. Wikinerd 07:29, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Roger Hicks


text:
Albion, Victoria

Albion is a suburb in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 14 km west of Melbourne's Central Business District, located within the City of Brimbank local government area. Albion recorded a population of 4,334 at the.

Albion is bordered on the north by Ballarat Road, the south by Forrest Street, the west by Kororoit Creek and the east by Anderson Road. The suburb is completely surrounded by other parts of Sunshine except for Ardeer, which lies to Albion's due west across Kororoit Creek.

History
The area was originally called Darlington, from at least 1860 to about 1890. The area originally known as Albion was directly west of Duke Street, as can be noted by the many streets there named after English counties and placenames – Albion being an ancient name for the island of Great Britain.

Albion station opened on 5 January 1860 as Albion and Darlington but closed a year later. It was not until 1919 that a new station was opened on the same site with the name Albion station.

In March 1885 the Albion Quarrying Company began its operations in the area. The disused Albion quarry, accessed from Hulett Street in Albion, was the location for AC/DC's Jailbreak music video.

It was H. V. McKay of Sunshine Harvester Works fame who bought land to develop a residential community for his workers in first decades on the 20th century. His concept for Sunshine was the Sunshine Estate: a community designed with superficial similarities to garden cities of the early 20th century. This area was mainly in what is now called Albion. McKay's own residence, The Gables, was in Talmage Street (where the cul-de-sac The Gables now is) until it was consumed by fire and subsequently demolished.

Today
Albion has many period homes such as California bungalows and 1940s weatherboard houses. In the eastern parts of Albion, many of the oldest homes were built by H. V. McKay as part of his Sunshine Estate, a housing community built according to the influential early 20th Century Garden city movement.

Kororoit Creek provides the western border for Albion. Along it runs the Kororoit Creek Trail which runs all the way southwards to meet the Federation Trail in Brooklyn.

Stony Creek lies on the eastern edge of Albion, close to Anderson Road. , the creek's environmental state west of Anderson Road is very poor as it has long been converted to nothing more than a concrete stormwater drain for this particular section of its course.

A notable landmark of Albion is the red brick John Darling and Son Flour Mill built in 1922. It is just to the south of Ballarat Road, next to Albion train station.

Transport
Albion railway station is on the Sunbury line and lies in the Public Transport Victoria zones 1 + 2 overlap.

Metropolitan buses service the suburb and Albion station. These include:
 * 215 Caroline Springs – Highpoint Shopping Centre via Albion station, Burnside Shopping Centre (every day). Operated by Kinetic Melbourne.
 * 216 Caroline Springs – Brighton Beach via Deer Park West, Sunshine, Footscray, Melbourne CBD, St Kilda Road, Prahran and Elsternwick (every day). Operated by Kinetic Melbourne.
 * 400 Sunshine – Laverton via Deer Park station, Dame Phyllis Frost Centre, Metropolitan Remand Centre, and Port Phillip Prison (every day). Operated by Transit Systems Victoria and CDC Melbourne.
 * 451 Sunshine – Deer Park North via Deer Park station (every day). Operated by Transit Systems Victoria.
 * 456 Sunshine – Woodgrove SC via Albion RS, Burnside SC, Caroline Springs, Melton (every day). Operated by Transit Systems Victoria.
 * 903 Altona station – Mordialloc SC via Essendon, Northland SC, Box Hill, Chadstone SC (every day). Operated by Kinetic Melbourne.

Cyclists in Albion are represented by BrimBUG, the Brimbank Bicycle User Group. The Kororoit Creek Trail runs along Albion's western perimeter.

Education

 * Albion Primary School
 * St Theresa's Catholic Primary School
 * Albion Kindergarten

Sporting facilities
The Albion Cats are the local Australian rules football team. They compete in the Western Region Football League.

Other sports clubs include:
 * Albion Thunder FC
 * Community Soccer Hub
 * Western Eagles (Association) Football Club
 * Sunshine Baseball Club
 * Sunshine Bowls Club
 * Polish Sports Centre
 * Sunshine United Cricket Club
 * Ace GoKarts
 * Albion Tennis Club

Religious sites

 * St Theresa's Catholic Church
 * Slovakian Baptist Church
 * Assemblies of God Church
 * Yen Ming Tang Buddhist Meditation Centre

title: Albion, Victoria


text:
Stan Lynde

Myron Stanford Lynde (September 23, 1931 – August 6, 2013) was an American comic strip artist, painter and novelist.

Biography
Born 23 September 1931 in Billings, Montana, he was raised on a sheep ranch near Lodge Grass. He attended the University of Montana in Missoula where he was a member of the Sigma Chi fraternity and later lived in Helena.

In 1958, Lynde created the comic strip Rick O'Shay, a critical and commercial success. Like most of his work, it was set in the West and mixed humor with strong storytelling. After a dispute with the syndicate, Lynde left the strip in 1977. The strip continued, drawn by Alfredo Alcala.

In 1979, Lynde launched another strip, Latigo, starring Cole "Latigo" Cantrell, a.k.a. "Two Trails". His father was a mountain man and his mother a Crow Indian. After serving in the Union Army during the Civil War, Latigo returned to the West and became a federal marshal. The daily strip was launched on 25 June 1979, joined by a Sunday strip, best seen in the half page format, on 1 July 1979. It was not a great commercial success and ended in 1983, the daily on 7 May, the Sunday on 5 June.

From 1984 to 1985, Lynde produced the weekly panel Grass Roots, which was revived in 1998. In the late 1980s, the Swedish financial newspaper Dagens Industri commissioned a comic strip from Lynde. It became "Chief Plenty Bucks", set in the West and starring a capitalistic Native American chief. Lynde drew ten pages, but the project was shelved and never published in Dagens Industri. In 1997, the strip was revived for the Swedish Fantomen magazine (and its Norwegian and Finnish counterparts). The title was changed to Chief Sly Fox and a total of 86 pages (including the originals from the 1980s) were published from 1997 to 2000. They have never been published in English.

In 2002, Lynde returned with another exclusive comic for Fantomen; Bad Bob about a hopeless Wild West criminal. This strip was published irregularly in Fantomen until 2010.

In December 2012, Lynde announced relocating to Ecuador. He quoted Charles Marion Russell in his last blog post stating of his time: ''Just a little sunshine, just a little rain. Just a little pleasure, just a little pain.'' After moving to Ecuador, Lynde fell ill but initially believed he had bronchitis. In May 2013 it was discovered to be a form of lung cancer and he moved back to Helena MT where he died at age 81 on 6 August 2013.

Books
Stan Lynde and his wife Lynda founded Cottonwood Publishing in order to publish books reprinting his comics, plus publish new material, primarily Western novels.

Novels
Merlin Fanshaw series
 * The Bodacious Kid (1996) #1
 * Careless Creek (1998) #2
 * Saving Miss Julie (2004) #3
 * Marshal of Medicine Lodge (2005) #4
 * Summer Snow (2006) #5
 * Vendetta Canyon (2008) #6
 * To Kill a Copper King (2010) #7
 * The Big Open (2012) #8

Stand Alone Novel
 * Vigilante Moon (2003)

Strip reprints

 * The daily Rick O'Shay, from the beginning through 1964, was reprinted by Cottonwood Publishing in four volumes, except for one week, which was reprinted in Comics Revue magazine. Comics Revue reprinted the daily Rick O'Shay beginning with the strips from September 30, 1968. A selection of Rick O'Shay dailies, with commentary by Stan Lynde, was reprinted in Rick, Hipshot, and Me from Cottonwood Publishing.
 * Grass Roots panels were reprinted in two volumes from Cottonwood Publishing.
 * Latigo daily strips have all appeared in three volumes from Cottonwood Publishing. Some Sundays have been reprinted in color in Comics Revue.

title: Stan Lynde


text: Category:Women by occupation

title: Category:Women by occupation


text:
Grateley railway station

Grateley railway station serves the village of Grateley, Hampshire, England, and the surrounding countryside. It is 72 mi down the line from London Waterloo. It is operated by South Western Railway.

The station opened on 1 May 1857. It was built 3/4 mi southwest of Grateley village, near the hamlet of Palestine, after the local landowner objected to it being built any closer. Since then, a new settlement has grown up around the station.

On 5 June 1861, the Grateley station master was killed as a result of a driver and guard rushing to move freight wagons.

The station has few facilities and is unmanned. There is a self-service ticket machine on platform 1 and smartcard readers on both platforms. There are two car parks for the large number of commuters who use the station. Displays on each platform show the next two trains. All trains are operated by South Western Railway.

Services
South Western Railway operates an hourly service between London Waterloo and Salisbury with limited extensions to Bristol Temple Meads, Exeter St Davids and Yeovil Pen Mill. A seasonal service runs once each way on a Saturday between Waterloo and Weymouth, operating from late May to early September.

Trains are once per hour each way on weekdays, then decreasing to once every two hours each way on Sundays.

title: Grateley railway station


text:
Talk:Peter Geach

DOB
I have a doubt concernig his birth date. I have just made an article in Polish, and my sources of information state that it would rather be March 29th, 1916. What do you think about that? --Ziel 07:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC) -- Professor Geach's paper 'History of the Corruptions of Logic' can be downloaded as a PDF here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?r7tuym1gp06dyji

Can someone add this to the main article? I'm not sure how to do it properly.

Rosa Lichtenstein (talk) 15:26, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Peter Geach


text: Category:Women cricketers

title: Category:Women cricketers


text:
Neighbourhood Cable

Neighbourhood Cable was a telecommunications provider based in regional Victoria, Australia. The company owned and operated hybrid fibre coaxial (HFC) cable networks in three Victorian regional cities of Mildura, Ballarat and Geelong before being acquired by TransACT in 2007 and the brand ceased to be used in 2011.

The company delivered cable television, broadband internet and telephony services via these cable networks. It also offered internet services via Telstra's copper network and wireless equipment. It was one of the few companies in Australia selling non-Telstra local-loop services, and also one of only very few with active HFC networks.

History
Neighbourhood Cable commenced the rollout of its hybrid fibre Optic/Coaxial network in Mildura on 1 March 1996, with the rollout to two thirds of homes and 90% of businesses in Mildura completed in two years.

By 2001, the company had run 900 kilometres worth of hybrid fibre coaxial cable past 38,000 homes in Mildura and Ballarat, with 1500 customers, and with planned rollouts in Bendigo, Geelong, Shepparton and Albury-Wodonga.

A number of subscription TV channels have solely or were first seen in Australia on their network. It was the only place in Australia where the US ESPN2 could be viewed, and was the first place some Discovery Channel variants and CNN Headline News were available.

The company was delisted from the ASX in July 2005, after a string of events starting with a request for a further $5 million to continue operation. The company's venture capitalist, TVG, subsequently acquired all shares in the company.

In 2007, rival telecommunications company TransACT acquired Neighbourhood Cable, effective 1 January 2008. The operations of Neighbourhood Cable were rebranded as and merged with TransACT from June 2011.

title: Neighbourhood Cable