text:
Talk:Phragmocone

When discussing attributes of extinct taxa, should we be writing in past or present tense? I wrote this entry in past tense, but i notice some of this has since been changed to present tense. M Alan Kazlev 11:32, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Phragmocone


text:
Talk:Hominidae/Archive 2

The term "hominan"
I'd like to know what the article's source is for refering to the hominini as hominans, as I can find no support for the term in the literature. Where the term is used at all it seems to be referencing the homininae, but even this usage seems rare. "Hominin" seems to be far more widely used to refer to the hominini, with numerous recent papers adopting this terminology. Is there some sort of taxonomic ultimate authority which Wikipedia is bound to, or is this just a mistake? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.149.97 (talk) 11:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I noticed the same thing, and agree with you. Awickert (talk) 10:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguating links from Hominid to Hominidae
Hello,

I am involved in the ongoing Wiki disambiguation project. (See Disambiguation pages with links for more information.)
 * I have been correcting the links in various articles from "hominid" to "Hominidae". Note: this does not mean changing the visible text, just the underlying link, so that the reader reaches an article instead of a disambiguation page. This is the purpose of disambiguation.
 * However, user UtherSRG has been reverting all my corrections.

I could use some help here. I have spent hours on this project. Thanks. Iggle 00:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

 * If you'd read the hominid article, you'd see that there is plenty of information that makes this more than just a typical disambiguation page. You wouldn't have wasted as much of time on this if you'd halted when I first asked you to instead of undoing my reverts and carrying on with your "repairs". Some of the edits you made were good, but others were not. This article talks about the distinctions in terminology, the difference in the various terms used to describe various hominoids. The Hominidae article describes the family of apes. Let me repeat: one is an article about terminology, one is an artile about animals. - UtherSRG (talk) 01:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Could we please keep this discussion about the topic? I will disregard your outright and implied slurs.

 * To try to reply to some of the factual points you have brought up:
 * The hominid dab page is not actually very atypical. Many dab pages include brief explanations about the different links listed, as this one does.
 * I left the revert you made, as you requested, on the Human Evolution page. If you were asking me to stop all disambiguation efforts regarding the hominid dab page, that was not clear to me. I thought your request was in regards to one page.
 * I don't consider my efforts a waste of time, any more than you do yours, I imagine.
 * There isn't an "article" per se about this terminology. A disambiguation page is not quite the same as an article. They have different functions.

 * If there are discussions of related terminology in articles, then it might be appropriate to link to a detailed discussion of the terminology. However, if an article simply mentions the term "hominid," then it is appropriate to link to a page that gives further information about hominids--and that would be the Hominidae page.

 * If you feel that the Hominidae article is incomplete in such a way that the reader needs more explanation of terminology, you might consider adding that explanation. However, I think this is covered by the first line, "For an explanation of very similar terms...."

 * If you feel that an article about terminology is needed, you might write one. According to wiki policy, one shouldn't intentionally use frequent links to disambiguation pages. (See Disambiguation_page.) Iggle 02:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

If you read your talk page, you'll remember that I mentioned nothing about the Human Evolution page specifically when I asked you to stop. I asked you to stop "fixing" the hominid links. The hominid dab page *is* different than most dabs. Most dabs have just a single line for each entry. This dab has a whole paragraph above and below the line-by-line disambiguation. If it makes it easier for you to swallow, I'm removing the dab tag. Now it's not a dab page at all. Look at the edit history of this page and of Hominidae. It's not a typical dab. Leave the links as they are within articles (the taxobox fixes were correct). Good day sir. - UtherSRG (talk)

 * Making that an article rather than a dab page is an excellent idea. It removes the entire difficulty--and you won't run into this issue with the next "de-daber" to innocently stumble upon your domain. Good thinking, ma'am. Iggle 18:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks, but I'm a guy. - UtherSRG (talk) 18:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I rather thought so. But I'm not, so I was just making a little repartee. --Iggle 19:35, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Oh! *blush* My bad. Sorry. - UtherSRG (talk) 20:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Extinct species
I assume that all the groups include extinct species as well as living ones, for instance Homo erectus. Could this be made clear in the first sentence? Thanks. Steve Dufour 05:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure!. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Why the reference?
Just wondering why
 * For the book by Robert J. Sawyer, see The Neanderthal Parallax.

occurs at the beginning. Is there a reason people looking for his book would search for "hominid"? Or people searching for "hominid" should be particularly directed to this book? --24.215.254.103 19:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC) Sorry, this was me: --jb 19:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Follow the link, and you will have your answer. - UtherSRG (talk) 23:29, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought...?
i thought hominids were upright, bipedal organisms and did not include chimpanzees and related apes?

from Merriem-Webster Online:

Main Entry: hom·i·nid Pronunciation: 'hä-m&-n&d, -"nid Function: noun Etymology: New Latin Hominidae, from Homin-, Homo + -idae
 * any of a family (Hominidae) of erect bipedal primate mammals comprising recent humans together with extinct ancestral and related forms
 * You would look more intelligent if you capitalized correctly. -The Mysterious El Willstro 71.181.140.237 (talk) 04:48, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

from MSN Encarta: hom·i·nid [ hómmənid ] (plural hom·i·nids)

noun Definition: member of primate family including humans: a primate belonging to a family of which the modern human being is the only species still in existence. Family Hominidae.

 * Those are rather out-dated notions. Note the history section in the Hominoidea article. - UtherSRG (talk) 03:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Please cite recent sources that include the great apes in with hominids. All the sources I have (including new textbooks) do not include the great apes with hominids.Calystia 20:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Note the history section in the Hominoidea article. - UtherSRG (talk) 21:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Neanderthals are not human ancestors
Contrary to the statement in the article DNA evidence now shows that we are not descended from Neanderthals. [Work on] .. Neanderthal mtDNA has dated their last common ancestor with humans to about 660,000 years ago, give or take 140,000 years. Now that the evidence is available, in the shape of a complete neanderthal genome, isn't it time that anachronistic and discredited theories about human ancestry were removed from this article

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14487-first-neanderthal-genome-completed.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fentlehan (talk • contribs) 08:40, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see how that article disproves to statement. Yes, we are not descended from Neanderthals. The statement doesn't say that. It just says how long ago the ancestor of both lived.92.8.241.179 (talk) 16:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The major problem is that in the "Classification" section, the Homo genus is pointed out as "immediate ancestors of modern humans", which is not true for all of the Homo genus, as we know nowadays that many of the species were short-lived branches that didn't lead to us (for example, the Neanderthal that just got cited here). I suggest we change the phrase to something more accurate, maybe "immediate ancestors and close relatives to modern humans". --201.21.181.131 (talk) 17:05, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Why aren't there any photos of humans in this article?
Shouldn't we add some? If humans are apes, then it is logical to include at least one photo. I only see photos of other non-human apes. 64.236.121.129 (talk) 19:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Humans are not apes, but we are closely related to them ... HammerFilmFan (talk) 03:05, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

 * There are plenty of people who would agree with you about the first part of that, namely that humans are not apes; but about half of those people are Creationists. Among biologists, it is now pretty widely (though not actually universally) accepted that the genus Homo indeed falls under the (Great) Ape rubric. Check out the opening sentence, and note the left-hand leaf-node of the family tree. The upshot of all this being: Hey, why aren't there any photos of humans in this article...? :~D IfYouDoIfYouDon't (talk) 06:30, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, you fooled me, HammerFilmFan! There's been a picture of humans here for some time already. Nice, very nice. IfYouDoIfYouDon't (talk) 06:35, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Bonobo
The intro doesn't include Bonobo as a Great Ape. I keep trying to change it but apparently the edit is "unconstructive". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.147.216 (talk) 00:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Read the comment just after the portion you are trying to edit. To wit, "chimpanzee" covers both species of chimps: the Common Chimpanzee, and the Bonobo (also known as the Pygmy Chimpanzee). The listing only includes the genus-level common names. There are two species of chimpanzees (as I've just mentioned), and there are also two species of gorillas and two species of orangutans. For simplicity, we don't list all of the species, just the common names for the genera. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree - only thw two species of 'chimpanzee' are widely upheld - there are plenty who would like to assign one or more of the gorilla subspecies to species level but that viewpoint is far from widespread. Likewise for the two orangutan subspecies. Only the Chimpanzee and Bonobo have their own common name and are good biological species —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.246.93 (talk) 20:18, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with 86.133.246.93. Bonobos are more intelligent than their chimp counter-parts and yet are a widely unknown species of great apes by many people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ZenithNoesis (talk • contribs) 09:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Maturity
According to the article, hominids do "not [become] fully mature for 8-13 years in most species (longer in humans)." Am I correct to assume it means physical/sexual maturity? If so, wouldn't it be about the same in humans, about 13? It seems to me that this article should treat humanity from a biological, animal perspective (something I will admit is counter-intuitive for most people), and as much as society likes to pretend people aren't physically mature until 18/21/insert age of majority here, we are physically and sexually mature about 13 or so. Should the parenthetical at the end of the quote be removed? If I'm misreading what this passage means (such as if we are also going by the social structures of the other hominids for their maturity ages, rather than physical means), let me know. J0lt C0la (talk) 21:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Humans are not fully grown at 13, though. They may be able to reproduce, but that's not the same thing. I think that's why it says 'fully mature' rather than 'sexually mature'. Anaxial (talk) 22:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I think it means the age adulthood is reached when it says "maturity". I think concepts like "sexual maturity" and other things that have ages of consent mean maturity in your mind. And I agree that 13 year olds can be mature enough to consent to sex if they so choose (they certainly do in the UK if you watch the news there!). That for me is the purpose of ages of consent: to protect children until they are ready to make that decision on their own without being coerced into it. And I think 13yr olds are mature enough to not be coerced as a general rule. I also think it's hypocritical that in the UK, the age you can buy alcohol is different than the age you can learn to drive, or consent to sex etc. Why should these ages be different?
 * Anyway, I don't think the fact that Great Apes or other hominids become mature at age X means that humans become mature at that age also. There may be some correlation and crossover, but we are a different species, so there are differences between us. Deamon138 (talk) 22:08, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Civil rights for Great Apes
Apparently Spain has extended rights to Great Apes. Should this be reflected somewhere in the article? 74.56.236.39 (talk) 04:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you have a verifiable and reliable source you can cite]? - [[User:UtherSRG|UtherSRG (talk) 07:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

 * This guys vandalized a few places. Check his contributions. So it's best to treat this post here as a "joke", although I wouldn't blame anyone if they considered it racist. Deamon138 (talk) 21:59, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Actually he is telling the truth to an extent. Spain has granted limited civil rights towards non-human great apes. Westvoja (talk) 02:17, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

we have a dedicated article for this, Great ape personhood. dab (𒁳) 19:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

 * On July 11 I added a "Legal status" section to this article to summarize this. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 20:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Virunga
the official Virunga National Park website added because it is the only park in the world with three taxa of great apes. The site is critical to great ape conservation. While the external link was removed as spam, I think it is justified. Unless you disagree, please revert.
 * I deleted the link in question as it promotes a product (namely the Park and its funding), and is only tangentially connected with the subject of the article. The link would, in my view, be appropriate at the Virunga National Park page itself, but it seems to serve no useful purpose here - many parks and zoos feature apes, and since Wikipedia is not a collection of links, we can't link to all of them.Anaxial (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Humans?
My concern with this article is whether or not humans should be classified as great apes. There is much debate about our (that is, humans) status among the apes. We are correctly classified under homininae, but should this article go as far as placing us under "Great Apes"? We do share a close tie with chimpanzees and bonobos than we do with the other apes, but there are clear distinctions between us and chimps, physically and genetically; there is a 94% commonality between us and chimps - "Close, but not that close."

The main differences reflect the acquired traits, or specializations, among the hominins in three areas: brain, teeth, and locomotion. For example, the dental arcade of apes and humans are very different: In panins and gorillas, there are U shaped arcades; in humans, there are parabolic shaped arcades. This is only one of many differences. This is just my opinion and it does not have to be taken by the writers of this article, but it is something that should be taken into consideration. -Ano-User (talk) 10:32, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The article is pretty much based upon what is published. Current taxonomy places Homo sapiens in the family Hominidae, also known as the Great Apes, of which Homininae is one of the two extant subfamilies.  However you think humans should be classified the issue cannot be addressed in an encyclopedia article.  You might try one of the human evolution discussion boards on-line to find a place to discuss your opinions about the taxonomy of Homo sapiens.  --KP Botany (talk) 04:33, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand that the article is based upon what is published, but I think it would be better for it to be moved and named as, as dab said, the "unambiguous Hominidae". This term would be of more educational use than "Great Apes" would be, but that is only my opinion. Whether humans "should" be classified as great apes, the issue cannot be addressed in an encyclopedia article; THIS is exactly my point, and is why the name "Great Apes" should be re-named "Hominidae". "Great Apes" should be a "sub-article" within the main article. It could be set up as a sub-article that addresses the question of whether humans "should" be classified as a species of Great Ape. --Ano-User (talk) 07:15, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

This issue has been plaguing the article for ages. I think the problem is the implication that "Hominidae" is equivalent to "Great apes". Now "Hominidae" is the scientific term, while "great ape" is the common English term. "Hominidae" being an artificial term for taxonomical classification, its definition is not under dispute. But it just so happens that spoken English, over which taxonomists have no defining power, does not include humans under "apes", so the issue will keep coming up. The solution imho would be to move this article to the unambiguous Hominidae.

The article is aware to this point, ''"Great ape" is a common name rather than a taxonomic label and there are differences in usage. Subtly, it may seem to exclude human beings ("humans and the great apes") or to include them ("humans and non-human great apes").'' but for some reason it prefers to stash the admission into a footnote and hit the reader with "you ape" in the lead, so people can gloat over the uneducated complaints on talk rather than putting it straight up front. The unambiguous term is Hominidae. Whether you want to include humans in the common name "great ape" is pretty much up to your taste. --dab (𒁳) 08:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Think of it like this- if I pointed to a human and told you "this person is a mammal." You would have no problem agreeing with me.  Humans, obviously, are mammals.  Mammals aren't humans, though.  If I pointed to the squirrel out the window, it is also a mammal.  Now, with that statement, you don't see any religious leaders getting all frantic about how a human could be linked with such an "inferior" animal such as the squirrel.  That is because mammal is a general term for a collection of species.  Apes is the same way.  Humans are apes, but apes aren't humans.  In fact, there is no one species that is an ape, by itself.  An ape describes the multiple different collection of species, just as the word mammal does, just as the word primate and simian do.  Just think of it as a technicality.  All spiders are bugs, but only some bugs are spiders.  Not all bugs are spiders.  Bugs can describe a wide range of species, including species of spiders and insects.  Apes can describe human-like and gorilla-like species.  A human is an ape, just as a human is a mammal.24.49.35.99 (talk) 15:27, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

 * This is an unusual problem with a common name that I had not contemplated. I am used to thinking of Homo sapiens taxonomically as Great Apes, but I realize it's a vernacular term, also, and, yes, it may offend people, or rather, as dab put it, "is pretty much up to your taste."

 * Still WP:Mammals uses common names as standard on articles in their categories, maybe this should be posted there (this being the proposal). --KP Botany (talk) 08:56, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I am sure this can be recognized as a special case, due to the asymmetry of H. sapiens being the one species doing all the taxonomic classification. --dab (𒁳) 09:22, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

 * You are right in saying that it may offend people, but that is an emotional reaction. Calling someone an "ape" is usually taken to mean that he/she is a brute or moron, but this shouldn't be the case for taking offence. Instead, it should be viewed in regards to the commonalities that we have with chimps, bonobos gorillas, and orangutans, not by someone's feelings or stereotypes. However, there is no doubt that we share much of our genetics and social capabilities with the African and Asian apes.
 * The names "Great Apes" and "Hominidae" should not be synonymous, but separate. Physically, homo sapiens and apes (as we know them) are very different. The name "Hominid" is also used synonymously with "Great Apes", but this must be changed also. But yes, as dab said, it is pretty much up to your taste. --Ano-User (talk) 07:15, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Whether hominid and similar terms "should" be changed is really not something we can do anything about here. The scientific consensus is what it is, and until and unless it changes, the article can only report on the current taxonomy. It's the ICZN you'll need to complain to, not us, I'm afraid. Anaxial (talk) 08:38, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I understand that it is not within our power to change nomenclature, but as you said below, changing the name on the article may help to minimize confusion. It could also help avoid disputes like this. As I have stated above, we can create "The Great Apes" as a sub-article within a newly titled article named "Hominidae." Just a suggestion. --Ano-User (talk) 10:08, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'd prefer a redirect, rather than a sub-article. Obviously, we'd have to explain the different uses of the terminology in a slightly different way than we do at present, but we wouldn't want to make a definitive statement that humans are not great apes (or that they are, for that matter), since many people do use the term to include humans. Anaxial (talk) 12:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, a redirect would be a better option in this case. I agree that it is not in our power to make a definite statement to whether homo sapiens should or should not be classified as "Great Apes". Many anthropologists and paleoanthropologists may still use the term to include homo sapiens, but admittedly, the argument is still there and should not be abandoned, especially within encyclopedias. The article itself makes it clear in a foot note that classification is a subject of debate, but as I agreed, a redirect would be a better option. Thanks for the discussion! --Ano-User (talk) 22:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

 * I wouldn't be adverse to this move, as it might help minimise the confusion. In scientific circle, "great ape" is generally (though not exclusively, per some comments elsewhere on this Talk page) used as a synonym for "Hominidae", but in vernacular parlance, it generally isn't - it's a paraphyletic grouping, like reptile or fish. Hominid might be another compromise name, since that is sometimes used as if it were the common name for the group, but seems to be rather against the trend of article names, and possibly unsatisfactory for that reason. And, of course, it would require merging with the article that already exists under that name. Anaxial (talk) 09:47, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I have tried to make the same point as dab earlier on this discussion page. I would support a move. Iblardi (talk) 10:51, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I have implemented the move. The question remains, what to do with the Hominid article. Should it become a disambiguation page? A full article? Merged here? Merged into Humanoid? --dab (𒁳) 08:21, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I think the article Hominid (term) is fine just the way it is, and should NOT be merged into Humanoid or the Hominidae article. It may just be my own ignorance, but whenever I hear the word "humanoid", I always tend to think of creatures from science fiction novels or aliens, not things that pertain to science fact.  I don't think it should be merged into Hominidae because the article itself already addresses the revisions the term has gone through, and could be of historical/taxonomic use, if thats understandable. --Ano-User (talk) 21:24, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Most scientist are just starting to use this term to include humans among the great apes. I have even read a book published as recently as 2006 that still used the outdated classification that claims all non-human great apes belong to the pongo family. Obviousy this is no longer the case. I believe that it is most wise to count humans as apes. It is a way to honor our evolutionary ancestory. Plus humans, chimps, ans bonobos all share 96% of DNA, and 99.4% of their genetics over all. This genetic kin is closer than the relation to a horse and an ass, which both share the same genus. We shall grow even more as a speices by accepting the term ape to include humans. If we embrace it than future generations will have a greater repect for our evolutionary kin as well as doing away with the bias thinking of humans being "superior" to other apes. Humans, chimps, and bonobos also share the same blood-type, which mean each can donate between each other (according by type of course). Read Next of Kin: My Conversations with Chimpanzees by Roger Fouts for futher information. Westvoja (talk) 02:18, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Why is it so hard for humans to accept that they are apes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.108.138.162 (talk) 16:35, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

 * Wrong question. Is it hard for humans to accept that they are closely related to chimpanzees, bonobos and gorillas? Some people find it hard, some don't. Should either group call all members of the Hominidae "apes"? The first group obviously won't want to. But the second group may not want to either, because everyday language is not about scientific precision but about useful contrasts. For example, "humans" are legally responsible for their actions; "apes" are not. The biggest legal, moral and cultural gap is between Homo sapiens and other members of the Hominidae, so in these spheres it's sensible to use language which recognizes this. In other spheres, such as biology, it's not. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:25, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Help! (unparseable sentence)
I can't comprehend the following sentence:
 * The lack of morphological corroboration of the molecular similarity of humans and chimpanzees is widely assumed to reflect a false evolutionary signal from the morphology, but an alternative possibility is that the molecular evidence is misleading because it represents overall similarity rather than uniquely shared molecular characters.

It's simply too vague, f.ex. "false evolutionary signal" (how?), "molecular evidence" (which?), "uniquely shared molecular characters" (ehhmm? "characters"?), and it might profit from being split into more than one sentence. I'm huhhing it. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 14:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Huhhing it was rather generous of you. I removed it.  When it says something it can be readded.  --KP Botany (talk) 09:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, one of the articles used as a cite is available in full online. Having read it, I think I understand what the sentence is trying to say, and have rephrased it accordingly. Has this helped? Anaxial (talk) 10:12, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The current formulation is as clear and comprehensible as spring water. The point is that the "early-from-Orangutan" theory (just clumsily inventing a term, don't take seriously!) is supported by maintaining that Orangutan has gone through a heavy genetical change while keeping the general morph, and it is motivated by trying to explain why a lot of australopitechine characters ("parts of the morph") reminds us of orangutans. I could vaguely "sense" that in the sentence that I huhhed, but I couldn't get the sentence fit my "gut-feeling". ... said: Rursus (bork²) 10:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, generally I know where the sentence is coming from, and can guess its author even. I'll read Anaxial's input.  --KP Botany (talk) 10:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It is sourced by two sources, so while probably a minority theory, it is an interesting alternative, contributing to making science "fascinating!". What would science be without alternatives? But of course: the alternatives must be viable by scientific measures. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 11:07, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Like most "interesting" alternative theories, however, it's weight in the scientific community overall must be properly noted within the article. I think, probably, knocked out here on the talk page, probably before including the information.  --KP Botany (talk) 11:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * True enough, it could do with more qualification as to how much support the theory has - although that's true of the whole paragraph, not just this one sentence. Even the journal article cited makes it clear that the theory is not mainstream. (And, personally, I find it a little hard to believe). Anaxial (talk) 12:09, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not about our belief systems, luckily. Should we pull the whole paragraph and discuss it here?  --KP Botany (talk) 20:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Luckily not, no! But it does strike me that, given how fringe this theory is, we probably don't need an entire alternative list of species (i.e. presenting the same information again, in an order that almost all scientists agree is wrong). That really gives undue weight to the theory, in my opinion, because it makes it look like its on an equal footing with the generally accepted theory. So I will delete that part for the time being - it's easy enough to reconstruct if need be. Anaxial (talk) 19:45, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not on the level of completely dismissable, meaning that some evolutionary scientists will discuss the theory. I've never stood around a seminar with a bunch of evolutionary biologists and geneticists and paleontologists and geologists and discussed flood geology, but I have sat around with a similar group and discussed the orangutan theory of human origins.  I suggest that if it can be credibly sourced it can be included to the level of the weight the source gives it.  Unless and until then it can sit on the sidelines without real damage to this article which has other issues. --KP Botany (talk) 04:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Orangutans: Social behaviour - Solitary animals?
"In both chimpanzees and gorillas, the groups include at least one dominant male, and females leave the group at maturity. By contrast, orangutans are generally solitary."

Because orangutans have often been observed wandering about on themselves, they have been regarded as solitary animals for a long time. Due to this assumption, at many zoos they have lived/live alone which usually led/leads to great loneliness and suffering for the animals.

As recent studies have revealed (like the observations of Willie Smits, founder of the Borneo Orangutan Survival Foundation), orangutans do enjoy the company of members of their own kind.

It is assumed that their relatively often solitary travelling is due to a shortage of sufficient food in the rainforests on Borneo and Sumatra. If they travelled in larger groups, the chances that the found food would be enough for every member would be rather small.

But it has been discovered that when there is enough food for several individuals in one place (like when a great fig tree is bearing fruit), many orangutans gather together and prove to be very sociable (playing, communicating, ...).

Averaged, there are more fruits for the orangutans growing in the rainforests on Sumatra than on Borneo (except for the years when many trees on Borneo are bearing fruit at the same time). —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnnaMaria15 (talk • contribs) 17:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Besides, there are also mothers with their children, who were seen, travelling in the company of a few younger males. The risk that they ate so much that there would not be enough left for the mother is not that high. Also young males without their own territory have been watched wandering together.

Actually all versions of forming groups have been observed so far, except for two dominant males due to them being territory. --AnnaMaria15 18:57, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

History section needs to be expanded
At the moment it only seems to cover the human/chimpanzee stem group, with no mention of gorilla or Ponginae history. I don't know much about them so I can't edit it myself; I do know there are a lot of Ponginae fossils that could be talked about in this section.92.8.241.179 (talk) 16:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Hominidae/Archive 2


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Jug McSpaden

Harold Lee "Jug" McSpaden (July 21, 1908 – April 22, 1996) was an American professional golfer, and golf course architect.

Early career
Born in Monticello, Kansas, McSpaden became interested in golf at the age of ten, after seeing Harry Vardon play in Kansas City, Kansas. McSpaden worked as a caddie, then was elected to PGA Membership at age 18 on November 11, 1926. He played in the first Masters in 1934 and won the Pasadena Open in 1935; the Canadian Open in 1939; and both the Los Angeles Open and the Phoenix Open in 1944 (his only head-to-head win against Byron Nelson). In the late 1930s and early 40s McSpaden was the club pro at Winchester Country Club outside Boston.

In 1938, McSpaden played in the second Bing Crosby Pro-Am and was partnered with Eddie Lowery, who had been the caddy of Francis Ouimet in the 1913 U.S. Open.

Ryder Cup teams during World War II
McSpaden was named to the U.S. Ryder Cup team in 1939, but the event was cancelled that year due to the outbreak of World War II. Other members of the Ryder Cup team that year included: Byron Nelson, Ralph Guldahl, Paul Runyan, Dick Metz, Craig Wood, Horton Smith, Walter Hagen, Sam Snead, and honorary captain Vic Ghezzi. McSpaden was also a member of the Ryder Cup team in 1941, 1942, and 1943; but during those years only exhibition matches were played as fundraisers for the war effort. Between 1942 and 1944 McSpaden and Byron Nelson, both of whom were rejected from the military for health reasons, made 110 exhibition fundraising appearances for the Red Cross and USO.

Because of their consistent one-two finishes at these charity events, Nelson and McSpaden were together referred to as the "Gold Dust Twins". In 1944, when winners were paid in war bonds, McSpaden won $23,855. He claimed to have cleared less than $150 when he cashed them in. McSpaden's winnings that year were second only to Nelson's record-breaking $37,967 worth of bonds.

In 1938, McSpaden and Byron Nelson complained to and then worked with a shoe manufacturer, Field and Flint, to improve the comfort and grip of golf shoes. For a time, they each received a 25 cent royalty for each pair of shoes sold.

McSpaden and Nelson were the subject of "Iron Masters", a 1940s newsreel narrated by Bill Stern.

Retirement and records
In 1947, McSpaden became vice president of a sportswear company, the Palm Beach Company, and left the professional golf tour; he did compete periodically in Tour events for some time after this.

McSpaden was elected to the Professional Golfers' Association Hall of Fame, and the Kansas Golf Hall of Fame on September 30, 1991. He was the course architect for the Dub's Dread Golf Club in Kansas City, Kansas. He competed in the Senior PGA Championship until the age of 85.

While McSpaden had 17 PGA Tour wins in all, he holds a PGA record for coming in second: 13 times in one year, 1945. That same year, he set a PGA record of 31 top-10 finishes in one season. He finished 12 times in the top-10 at major championships. His best finish was runner-up to Denny Shute at the 1937 PGA Championship.

McSpaden was the first pro golfer to shoot a 59 on a par 71 course (Brackenridge Park Golf Club, San Antonio, Texas) in 1939. His playing partners that day were Byron Nelson, Paul Runyan, and Ben Hogan.

McSpaden also holds the PGA record for being the oldest golfer ever to better his age in a Champions Tour event: in 1994 he shot an 81 at the age of 85 in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida.

According to Byron Nelson, McSpaden was "a better player than most people know". He was "honest, forthright, kind of rough and gruff", and because of his "exceptionally long arms" only used a 42-inch driver for most of his career.

McSpaden was named the 1994 Nissan Open Tournament Honoree, having won there (then the Los Angeles Open), in 1944.

In 1995, McSpaden said to Byron Nelson, "If you wouldn't have been born, I'd have been known as a pretty good player."

Death and legacy
In Kansas City, Kansas, on April 22, 1996, McSpaden and his wife Betty (b.1922, m.1949) were found dead in their home located on Painted Hills Golf Course, named Victory Hills at the time. Their car had been left running in the attached garage and the police ruled the deaths accidental carbon monoxide poisonings.

McSpaden was on the ballot for the World Golf Hall of Fame in 2004 and 2005, but did not receive enough support for induction.

Dub's Dread, the course McSpaden designed, was once listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as the world's longest golf course.

PGA Tour wins (17)

 * 1933 (1) Santa Monica Amateur-Pro
 * 1934 (1) Pasadena Open
 * 1935 (2) Sacramento Open, San Francisco National Match Play Open
 * 1936 (1) Massachusetts Open
 * 1937 (1) Massachusetts Open
 * 1938 (2) Miami Open, Houston Open
 * 1939 (1) Canadian Open
 * 1941 (1) Thomasville Open
 * 1943 (1) All American Open
 * 1944 (5) Los Angeles Open, Phoenix Open, Gulfport Open-Mississippi, Chicago Victory National Open, Golden Valley Four-Ball (with Byron Nelson)
 * 1945 (1) Miami International Four-Ball (with Byron Nelson)

Other wins (11)

 * 1931 Oklahoma Open
 * 1934 Oklahoma Open, Iowa Open
 * 1938 Massachusetts Open, New England PGA Championship
 * 1939 New England PGA Championship
 * 1940 Philippine Open
 * 1941 Massachusetts Open, New England PGA Championship
 * 1942 Miami Open
 * 1944 Utah Open

Results in major championships
Note: McSpaden never played in The Open Championship. {{legend|yellow|Top 10}} {{legend|#eeeeee|Did not play}} NYF = tournament not yet founded NT = no tournament WD = withdrew CUT = missed the half-way cut R64, R32, R16, QF, SF = round in which player lost in PGA Championship match play

"T" indicates a tie for a place

Summary

 * Most consecutive cuts made – 29 (1936 Masters – 1948 U.S. Open)
 * Longest streak of top-10s – 4 (1940 PGA – 1941 PGA)

title: Jug McSpaden


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Traversal Using Relays around NAT

Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) is a protocol that assists in traversal of network address translators (NAT) or firewalls for multimedia applications. It may be used with the Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) and User Datagram Protocol (UDP). It is most useful for clients on networks masqueraded by symmetric NAT devices. TURN does not aid in running servers on well known ports in the private network through a NAT; it supports the connection of a user behind a NAT to only a single peer, as in telephony, for example.

TURN is specified by. The TURN URI scheme is documented in.

Introduction
Network address translation (NAT), a mechanism that serves as a measure to mitigate the issue of IPv4 address exhaustion during the transition to IPv6, is accompanied by various limitations. The most troublesome among these limitations is the fact that NAT breaks many existing IP applications, and makes it more difficult to deploy new ones. Guidelines have been developed that describe how to build "NAT friendly" protocols, but many protocols simply cannot be constructed according to those guidelines. Examples of such protocols include multimedia applications and file sharing.

Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) provides one way for an application to traverse a NAT. STUN allows a client to obtain a transport address (an IP address and port) which may be useful for receiving packets from a peer. However, addresses obtained by STUN may not be usable by all peers. Those addresses work depending on the topological conditions of the network. Therefore, STUN by itself cannot provide a complete solution for NAT traversal.

A complete solution requires a means by which a client can obtain a transport address from which it can receive media from any peer which can send packets to the public Internet. This can only be accomplished by relaying data through a server that resides on the public Internet. Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) is a protocol that allows a client to obtain IP addresses and ports from such a relay.

Although TURN almost always provides connectivity to a client, it is resource intensive for the provider of the TURN server. It is therefore desirable to use TURN as a last resort only, preferring other mechanisms (such as STUN or direct connectivity) when possible. To accomplish that, the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) methodology can be used to discover the optimal means of connectivity.

Protocol
The process begins when a client computer wants to contact a peer computer for a data transaction, but cannot do so due to both client and peer being behind respective NATs. If STUN is not an option because one of the NATs is a symmetric NAT (a type of NAT known to be non-STUN compatible), TURN must be used.

First, the client contacts a TURN server with an "Allocate" request. The Allocate request asks the TURN server to allocate some of its resources for the client so that it may contact a peer. If allocation is possible, the server allocates an address for the client to use as a relay, and sends the client an "Allocation Successful" response, which contains an "allocated relayed transport address" located at the TURN server.

Second, the client sends in a CreatePermissions request to the TURN server to create a permissions check system for peer-server communications. In other words, when a peer is finally contacted and sends information back to the TURN server to be relayed to client, the TURN server uses the permissions to verify that the peer-to-TURN server communication is valid.

After permissions have been created, the client has two choices for sending the actual data, (1) it can use the Send mechanism, or (2) it can reserve a channel using the ChannelBind request. The Send mechanism is more straightforward, but contains a larger header, 36 bytes, that can substantially increase the bandwidth in a TURN relayed conversation. By contrast, the ChannelBind method is lighter: the header is only 4 bytes, but it requires a channel to be reserved which needs to be periodically refreshed, among other considerations.

Using either method, Send or channel binding, the TURN server receives the data from the client and relays it to the peer using UDP datagrams, which contain as their Source Address the "Allocated Relayed Transport Address". The peer receives the data and responds, again using a UDP datagram as the transport protocol, sending the UDP datagram to the relay address at the TURN server.

The TURN server receives the peer UDP datagram, checks the permissions and if they are valid, forwards it to the client.

This process gets around even symmetric NATs because both the client and peer can at least talk to the TURN server, which has allocated a relay IP address for communication.

While TURN is more robust than STUN in that it assists in traversal of more types of NATs, a TURN communication relays the entire communication through the server requiring far more server bandwidth than the STUN protocol, which typically only resolves the public facing IP address and relays the information to client and peer for them to use in direct communication. For this reason, the ICE protocol mandates STUN usage as a first resort, and TURN usage only when dealing with symmetric NATs or other situations where STUN cannot be used.

title: Traversal Using Relays around NAT


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Quilmes people

The Quilmes people, also known as Kilmes, were an indigenous tribe of the Diaguita group settled in the western subandean valleys of today's Tucumán province, in northwestern Argentina. They fiercely resisted the Inca invasions of the 15th century, and continued to resist the Spaniards for 130 years, until being defeated in 1667. Spanish invaders relocated the last 2,000 survivors to a reservation (reducción) 20 km south of Buenos Aires. This 1,500 km journey was made by foot, causing hundreds of Quilmes to die in the process. By 1810, the reservation was abandoned as a result of its having become a ghost town. The survivors ultimately settled in what is now the city of Quilmes.

The Quilmes People were one of the fiercest cultures which resisted the Incas but eventually fell to the Spaniards. Today, there are only a few Quilmes left in Tucumán Province.

Quilmes ruins
On the way to Cafayate, 182 km from San Miguel de Tucumán, the Ruins of Quilmes may be seen; this is a fortified citadel which was raised by the Quilmes Indians. One of the most important archaeological locations in Argentina, the ruins were discovered by ethnographer and historian Samuel Alejandro Lafone Quevedo in 1888 and restored in 1978. As of 2007, this archaeological site is in private hands, and has a private hotel on its territory.

Population
Population at the beginning of the second half of the 17th century, is estimated in about 2,000 families, approximately 10,000 persons. When the Calchaquí Wars ended survived about 2,000 people (1665), which were taken prisoners and deported to a reservation located near Buenos Aires. But to the reservation just arrived only 200 families (about 1,000 people). In 1726, there were 141 people. William Beresford found a ghost town when he visited the reservation during the first British invasion of the River Plate in 1806. According to the last parish priest of the reserve, the last natives died in the late 18th century. The population was decimated by the high rate of infant mortality and epidemics. The government officially declared the ethnic group extinct on February 12, 1812 (but admitting that there are mestizo families) and the reservation was finally closed on August 14, 1812.

Eponyms
A species of lizard, Liolaemus quilmes, which is endemic to Argentina, is named in honor of the Quilmes People. There is also a dinosaur called Quilmesaurus.

title: Quilmes people


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Digital darkroom

Digital "darkroom" is the hardware, software and techniques used in digital photography that replace the darkroom equivalents, such as enlarging, cropping, dodging and burning, as well as processes that do not have a film equivalent.

All photographs benefit from being developed. With film this could be done at the print lab, or an inexpensive home darkroom. With digital, many cameras are set up to do basic photo enhancement (contrast, color saturation) immediately after a picture is exposed, and to deliver a finished product. Higher end cameras, however, tend to give a flatter, more neutral image that has more data but less "pop," and needs to be developed in the digital darkroom.

Setting up a film darkroom was primarily an issue of gathering the right chemicals and lighting; a digital darkroom consists of a powerful computer, a high-quality monitor setup (dual monitors are often used) and software. A printer is optional; many photographers still send their images to a professional lab for better results and, in some cases, a better price.

While each implementation is unique, most share several traits: an image editing workstation as the cornerstone, often a database-driven digital asset management system like Media Pro 1 to manage the collection as a whole, a RAW conversion tool like Adobe Photoshop Lightroom or Capture One, and in many cases the software that came with the camera is used as an automated tool to "upload" photos to the computer. The machine itself is almost always outfitted with as much RAM as possible and a large storage subsystem - big hard drives. RAID and external USB and FireWire drives are popular for storage. Most photographers consider a DVD-burner essential for making long term backups, and keep at least one set off-site.

The term was coined by Gerard Holzmann of Bell Labs for a book entitled Beyond Photography: The Digital Darkroom, in which he describes his pico image manipulation language (not to be confused with the pico programming language).

Software
The software employed in a digital darkroom varies greatly depending on the photographer's needs, budget and skill. The following are general areas and examples of software.

Image Acquisition: entails downloading images from a camera or removable storage device or importing from a scanner. Windows XP and Windows Vista both include an inbuilt wizard for importing images, including scanning images. Many professionals however may choose an importation tool built into image management software such as Adobe Photoshop Lightroom, Apple Aperture, ACDSee, Capture One, or darktable.

Image Library Management: involves managing images in a photographer's library and may extend to backing up images. Software such as Adobe Photoshop Lightroom, Apple Aperture and Media Pro 1 are examples of major image management software.

RAW Software: software, either stand alone or as part of image library management software that is designed to import and process RAW images. Most digital cameras capable of outputting RAW images will include a program or plug-in for this purpose such as Canon RAW Image Converter. Commercial Programs such as Adobe Photoshop Lightroom, Apple Aperture and Capture One, as well as open source projects such as darktable and RawTherapee, include extensive support for RAW importation and processing.

Image Editing: There are countless image editing suites, programs and tools available. Adobe Photoshop is among the most highly used in professional circles as are programs from Apple Inc., Microsoft, Macromedia (now Adobe), ACD, Phase One and various open source projects. Consumers may use professional software or choose less expensive options such as Adobe Photoshop Elements, Capture One Express or free open source options such as The GIMP.

Camera Control Software: software that can remotely control a camera from a computer connected via USB (tethered shooting). Normally included as utilities with camera, these allow photographers to control the camera from a nearby computer. Cameras such as the Canon 40D include such software and a live view mode so that a user may use a computer to control numerous functions of the camera while seeing a virtual viewfinder onscreen.

Capture One is one of the pioneer software programs used for tethered shooting which is very useful especially for studio photographers.

Capture Pilot is a photography app with camera control. The photographer is able to use a virtual camera display on an iPhone or iPad to remotely fire the camera and control capture parameters such as ISO sensitivity, exposure mode, shutter speed, aperture, exposure compensation. Capture Pilot requires Capture One to function.

Hardware
As image size and resolution increases, so do the requirements for hardware in a digital darkroom.

Computer: A computer in a digital darkroom typically have a generous amount of RAM, often 4GB or more, coupled with discrete graphics and a powerful multicore processor. For much of the 1980s and 90s, Macintosh based systems were dominant in the digital imaging market as Adobe's powerful new Photoshop software had only then been developed for the Mac. However, Windows-based systems such as Dell's high-end Precision range have become increasingly popular in recent times; better value for money than Apple's high-end Mac Pro and a more familiar Operating System are both factors that affect the choice of many prospective buyers of photo-editing systems.

Cameras/Scanners: Digital cameras and image scanners are increasing in quality, including the amount of colour they can capture and output. Many newer digital cameras can support wider colour spaces such as Adobe RGB and have higher resolution analog-to-digital converters; 14 bits rather than the common 12 bits.

Displays: Professionals may use premium displays from companies such as EIZO and Dell which are capable of displaying a wider range of colours than consumer oriented devices.

Printers: In addition to computers and displays, digital darkrooms may include printing equipment, ranging from smaller size printers for proofing to large format productions printers. Scanner and studio photographic equipment may also be included.

Digimage Arts program
Digital Darkroom is also the trademarked name of an image editing program for the Macintosh published by Digimage Arts.

title: Digital darkroom


text: User talk:69.122.5.109

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Samuel Bingham

Samuel Bingham (1845 – 16 June 1905) was the Mayor of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada between 1897 and 1898.

He was born in Bytown's Lower Town to Irish Catholic parents in 1845. As a young man, he worked on the log drives on the Gatineau River. With the Gilmour and Edwards lumber companies, he formed the Gatineau Boom Company, which later became part of the Canadian International Paper Company. He was an alderman on the Ottawa City Council from 1880 to 1893. Bingham believed that English speaking citizens of Ottawa should learn French.

In 1905, he drowned in the Gatineau River near Wakefield, Quebec after he fell asleep while returning in a horse-drawn wagon from clearing a log jam on the river.

There is a bust of Bingham by sculptor Hamilton MacCarthy in Notre-Dame Cemetery. In 1893, an attempt to rename the Cummings Bridge over the Rideau River after the former mayor was thwarted by residents of Sandy Hill.

title: Samuel Bingham


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Terval

Terval is a commune in the Vendée department in the Pays de la Loire region in western France. It was established as a commune nouvelle on 1 January 2023 from the merger of the communes of La Tardière, Breuil-Barret and La Chapelle-aux-Lys.

title: Terval


text:
User:James jones

God have mercy on such as we, damned from here to eternity. Ba ha bah ya!

-James Jones

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
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title: User:James jones


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Nevin

Nevin may refer to:

Surname

 * Nevin (surname)

Given name
Popular Turkish feminine name (from "nevîn" in Persian, meaning "newness").
 * Nevin Çokay (1930–2012), Turkish painter
 * Nevin Yanıt (born 1986), Turkish sprinter
 * Nevin Halıcı (b. 1941), Turkish culinary culture and food researcher and writer
 * Nevin Nevlin (b. 1985), Turkish basketball player

Nevin is a common surname of Irish/Scottish origins, but is also used as a given name in the Anglosphere.
 * Nevin Saroya (born 1980), English footballer
 * Nevin S. Scrimshaw (1918–2013), American food scientist
 * Nevin Spence (1990–2012), Irish rugby player
 * Nevin Harrison (born 2002), American sprint canoeist

Places

 * Anglicised name for Nefyn, Welsh town
 * Nevin, Los Angeles

title: Nevin


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Glenn Hubbard (economist)

Robert Glenn Hubbard (born September 4, 1958) is an American economist and academic. He served as the Dean of the Columbia University Graduate School of Business from 2004 to 2019, where he remains the Russell L. Carson Professor of Finance and Economics. On September 13, 2018, he announced that he would retire from his position after his contract expired on June 30, 2019. Hubbard previously served as Deputy Assistant Secretary at the U.S. Department of the Treasury from 1991 to 1993, and as Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers from 2001 to 2003.

Hubbard is a visiting scholar at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, where he studies tax policy and health care. He was criticized for his reports and papers on deregulation during the 2008 banking crisis. He was also heavily criticized in the documentary Inside Job about the credit default swap scams that led to the world financial collapse in 2008.

Early life and education
Born September 4, 1958, Hubbard was raised in Apopka, Florida, a suburb of Orlando, Florida. His father taught at a local community college and his mother taught at a high school. Hubbard's younger brother, Gregg, is a member of the country-pop band Sawyer Brown.

Hubbard is an Eagle Scout. A member of the chess team, he graduated at the top of his class. He scored well enough on his College Level Examination Program to enter the University of Central Florida with enough credits to graduate with two degrees in three years. He obtained his B.A. and B.S. degrees summa cum laude from the University of Central Florida in 1979, and his masters and PhD in economics from Harvard University in 1983.

Academic
Hubbard has been at Columbia University since 1988, being Russell L. Carson Professor of Finance and Economics since 1994.

He was named Dean of Columbia Business School on July 1, 2004. During his tenure, the construction of the 11-story Henry R. Kravis Hall was launched.

Government
Hubbard was Deputy Assistant Secretary at the U.S. Department of the Treasury from 1991 to 1993.

From February 2001 until March 2003, Hubbard was chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors under President George W. Bush. A supply-side economist, he was instrumental in the design of the 2003 Bush Tax cuts.

He was tipped by some media outlets to be a candidate for the position of Chairman of the Federal Reserve when Alan Greenspan retired, although he was not nominated for the position.

Political advisor
Hubbard served as economic advisor to the 2012 presidential campaign of Mitt Romney, a position he also held during Romney's 2008 presidential campaign. In August 2012, Politico identified Hubbard as "a likely Romney appointee as Federal Reserve chairman or Treasury secretary".

Hubbard was an economic advisor for the Jeb Bush 2016 presidential campaign. After Donald Trump became the presumptive Republican nominee, Hubbard was mentioned as a potential Treasury secretary (which eventually went to Steven Mnuchin), and also as a potential Fed chair, a role expected to become open in February 2018. Hubbard had been critical of both Trump and Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, including after Bush had suspended his campaign. In August 2016, Hubbard declined to say which candidate he supported in the general election, but did say that Trump's taxation plans and their impact on economic growth were in a "direction" somewhat better than Clinton's plans. Hubbard criticized Trump's plans on trade and immigration for their predicted economic impact.

Other
Hubbard serves as co-chair of the Committee on Capital Markets Regulation.

"Hubbard is a member of the Board of Directors of Automatic Data Processing, Inc., BlackRock Closed-End Funds, Capmark Financial Corporation, Duke Realty Corporation, KKR Financial Corporation, The TIFIN Group LLC and Ripplewood Holdings. He is also a Director or Trustee of the Economic Club of New York, Tax Foundation, Resources for the Future, Manhattan Council and Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church, New York, and a member of the Advisory Board of the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse... Director of MetLife and Metropolitan Life Insurance Company since February 2007."

Hubbard is currently a board member of:
 * Automatic Data Processing
 * Duke Realty
 * Ripplewood Holdings
 * MetLife Inc.
 * FiscalNote

On January 8, 2019, he was appointed to become MetLife's non-executive chairman of the board as of May 1, 2019, upon the retirement of Steven A. Kandarian.

Inside Job interview and aftermath
Hubbard was interviewed in Charles Ferguson's Oscar-winning documentary film, Inside Job (2010), discussing his advocacy, as chief economic advisor to the Bush administration, of deregulation. Ferguson argues that deregulation led to the 2008 international banking crisis sparked by the collapse of Lehman Brothers and the sale of Merrill Lynch. In the interview, Ferguson asks Hubbard to enumerate the firms from whom he receives outside income as an advisory board member in the context of possible conflict of interest. Hubbard, hitherto cooperative, declines to answer and threatens to end the interview with the remark, "You have three more minutes; give it your best shot." After the release of the film, Columbia ramped up ongoing efforts to strengthen and clarify their conflict of interest disclosure requirements.

Books
Hubbard is the author of a number of economic and socioeconomic texts, with a focus on deregulation, conservative fiscal policy and taxation. In 2009, he wrote and published The Aid Trap with economist William Duggan Columbia University Press, criticizing the aid system provided by NGOs in western countries as preventing internal growth in poorer nations. In 2013, he published Balance with former intelligence officer and economist Tim Kane.

Columbia Business School (CBS) Follies
Hubbard is also frequently featured in skits by Columbia Business School's "Follies" group, ranging from videos of him monitoring students on classroom video cameras to songs about his relationship with presidential candidate Mitt Romney. Hubbard has also publicized his dissatisfaction with Ben Bernanke's nomination as Chair of the Federal Reserve with his comedic YouTube parody of The Police's "Every Breath You Take", titled "Every Breath Bernanke Takes".

title: Glenn Hubbard (economist)


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Talk:Goggomobil

Any chance of a mention of the Goggomobil Man (G-O-G-G-O)? --Rilstix 11:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Don't forget the Goggo Isar. Vinzenz Kuehn, arrested for a murder later proved to have been committed by Joachim Kroll drove one. --Auric (talk) 19:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Copyright
The section "Australian Yellow Pages Advert" is copied entirely from the judgment of MERKEL J in Telstra Corporation Limited v Royal & Sun Alliance Insurance Australia Limited [2003] FCA 786, at [5].

See: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/federal_ct/2003/786.html

Name
Was Goggomobil a separate car make or just a model of Glas? Gwafton (talk) 10:58, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Goggomobil


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Forum Building

The Forum Building (Edifici Fòrum, ; Edificio Fórum), is an architectural landmark in Barcelona designed by the Swiss architects Jacques Herzog and Pierre de Meuron (Herzog & de Meuron).

The building is triangular in shape, measuring 180 metres on each side and 25 metres in height, located within the triangle formed by Diagonal Avenue, Rambla de Prim and the Ronda Litoral.

It was the symbol of the controversial 2004 Universal Forum of Cultures and the serious flaws that arose during its construction were widely covered in both the Spanish national and foreign press. The building has become a political bone of contention, with the opposition parties in both Barcelona Council and the Parliament of Catalonia demanding to know why it cost so much (of the order of US $144 m).

The building has an auditorium with a seating capacity of 3,200 and an exhibition hall covering nearly 5,000 square metres.

Since 2011 the building hosts the Museum of Natural Sciences of Barcelona (in Catalan, Museu de Ciències Naturals de Barcelona). During its first six years of existence, from 2011 to 2017, this museum was named Museu Blau (Catalan for "Blue Museum") but in 2017, changed its name to Museu de Ciències Naturals de Barcelona.

title: Forum Building


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User:Shyam

 Leave a message | Send a mail

I am Shyam Bihari Agarwal from India. I started editing articles in August 2005. Slowly editing at Wikipedia became a passion and as of February 2006 its more of an obsession. Probably you bumped into some article edited by me. Feel free to write any comments at my talk page. I am a B.Tech graduate in Metallurgical Engineering and Material Science field from IIT Bombay.

title: User:Shyam


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Holt, Wrexham

Holt is a medieval village and community in Wrexham County Borough, Wales. It is situated on the border with England and in the historic county of Denbighshire. Holt Castle was begun by Edward I shortly after the English conquest of Wales in 1277. Farndon lies just over the River Dee.

Etymology
The Old English word holt meant a "wood" or "thicket" and is a common element in place names over the border in England. Welsh uses the same name for the village but in the past, it included the definite article, appearing as Yr Holt.

Area
The district has been occupied since at least the Roman period. A brickworks (possibly called Bovium) supplied clay tiles and pottery to the Roman fort of Deva Victrix, eight miles away (modern Chester). The works was located just downstream from the modern village. In the early 20th century, six kilns, a bath house, sheds and barracks were found there on the banks of the River Dee.

Three Bronze Age burial urns have also been found in Holt.

Village
There is a medieval market cross in the centre of Holt. The church of St Chad has parts dating to the 15th century and 17th century.

Medieval bridge

A Grade I listed 14th-century sandstone bridge links Holt with the English village of Farndon across the River Dee. Records from the county court of Chester in 1368, state that: "the jury presented that John, earl of Warenne, late Lord of Bromfield, had constructed a bridge across the River Dee (during 1338)... and upon that bridge is a fortified gateway. The jury then claimed that illegal toll was being extorted from workmen daily crossing the bridge, and that the town of Holt was giving shelter to felons who ambushed Cheshire folk." A survey of 1627 described the bridge: "contayninge 10 arches which River divideth Two Sheires, namely Cheshire and Denbye... Upon the fifth Arch from Holt standeth a Tower or Gatehouse of Fortification... [the text then describes the Lady's Chapel in the tower]... Upon the other end of the fortificacion next unto the manor of Farndon next unto the Manor of Farndon is layd out in Masons Works a Lyon to the full passant. And like Lyon is upon the gates of Holt Castell. The county of Chester doth repair the bridge to the Lyon." Sixteen years later, William Brereton attacked the bridge for the Parliamentarians: "for which end they had also made a towre and drawbridge and strong gates upon the bridge soe as they and wee coceived it difficult if not altogether ympossible to make way for our passage." Despite this he, Thomas Myddelton and their forces took the bridge on 9 November 1643 when they cast 'some grenados amongst the Welshmen'.

Thomas Pennant recorded ten arches in 1754 (and had been told a datestone of 1354 was there until recently, which contradicts the more likely date of 1338) but Hubbard in Buildings of Wales only saw eight. The third arch, viewed from the Holt river bank, shows the strengthened arch where the drawbridge once stood.

Governance
An electoral ward in the same name exists. This ward stretches west to Abenbury and has a total population taken at the 2011 Census of 3,587.

People from Holt

 * Leigh Richmond Roose, a Welsh footballer and international goalkeeper from Holt.
 * H. G. Wells, the writer, was briefly teacher in a local private school, Holt Academy, in youth.

title: Holt, Wrexham


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Caerwys

Caerwys is a town in Flintshire, Wales. It is just under two miles from the A55 North Wales Expressway and one mile from the A541 Mold-Denbigh road. At the 2001 Census, the population of Caerwys community was 1,315, with a total ward population of 2,496. Following reorganisation the community population fell at the 2011 Census to 1,283 with the ward raising to 2,569. The community includes Afonwen.

History
Caerwys is mentioned in the Domesday Book as a small market town. The well-maintained church is dedicated to St. Michael. It has two parallel naves. Within the church is the cover slab of a tomb reputed to have been that of Elizabeth Ferrers, the wife of Dafydd ap Gruffudd, prince of Wales (d. 1283). A short, informative booklet about the church was written in 1936 and updated in 1995. As well as being surrounded by areas of outstanding natural beauty and views across mountains and valleys, the centre of Caerwys has been designated a conservation area.

In 1377 income from the Farm of Cayrouse was listed as part of the Principality issued to the Earl of Chester under the County Palatine of Chester, Caerwys being part of the Aticross Unhidated hundred.

In 1568 Queen Elizabeth I of England appointed a commission to control the activities of "minstrels, rhymers and bards", in Wales. Simwnt Fychan was summoned to meet at Caerwys and was appointed "pencerdd", i.e. the senior bard.

Caerwys and Philadelphia have important historical connections. Local doctor, Thomas Wynne, sailed to America on the ship Welcome in 1682 with William Penn. Wynne was one of the founding fathers of Philadelphia and became the first speaker of the Provisional Assembly, as well as a provincial judge. The original street plan of Philadelphia was designed on the street pattern of Caerwys. Many Welsh names crop up in the city, and several buildings built in Philadelphia resemble buildings in the Caerwys area, some of which still stand today.

Caerwys hosted two of the most important eisteddfodau of the early modern era – one in 1523, during the reign of Henry VIII of England at which Tudur Aled was present and the other, sanctioned by Elizabeth I, in 1567. Caerwys Town Hall was completed in 1885.

Governance
Caerwys Town Council consists of eleven councillors, and is not divided into wards.

The Caerwys and Ysceifiog communities make up the Caerwys electoral ward on Flintshire County Council, which elects one councillor.

Caerwys is part of the Delyn constituency and North Wales region for the Senedd, and of the Delyn constituency for parliament.

Notable people

 * Thomas Wynne (1627 in Ysceifiog – 1692), physician to William Penn, settler of Philadelphia
 * John Wynne (ca.1666 in Maes-y-coed – 1743), Bishop of St Asaph and of Bath and Wells
 * Thomas Jones of Denbigh (1756 at Penucha – 1820), writer and Methodist theologian.
 * Angharad Llwyd (1780 at Caerwys - 1866), antiquary and prizewinner at the National Eisteddfod.
 * Rowland Ellis (1841 in Caerwys – 1911), Bishop of Aberdeen and Orkney
 * Myfanwy Talog (1944 in Caerwys – 1995), actress and TV presenter with the BBC

Sport
The local football team Caerwys F.C. play in the Clwyd League. In the 2009/2010 season, they finished 3rd. They have a rivalry with many clubs including Holywell Town, Denbigh Town, and Ruthin Town. They also have a Summer League team and have a rivalry with Ysceifiog.

title: Caerwys


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User talk:Monicablakes

Bribe can kick off the economy

Bribe and kickback is slowly creeping into the US market, this is said to be because of the business transfer to China. This is very ridiculous as the companies should think of the security and the service. The person who can bribe can even sell....

http://www.weblobbying.com/smith/defaultlob.asp?Lid=346

Please do support for this cause and forward to your friends and collegues.

With Regards Monica

title: User talk:Monicablakes


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Cefnllys Castle

Cefnllys Castle (Castell Cefn-llys, ) was a medieval spur castle in Radnorshire (now part of Powys), Wales. Two successive masonry castles were built on a ridge above the River Ithon known as Castle Bank (Craig y Castell) in the thirteenth century, replacing a wooden motte-and-bailey castle constructed by the Normans nearby. Controlling several communication routes into the highlands of Mid Wales, the castles were strategically important within the Welsh Marches during the High Middle Ages. As the seat of the fiercely contested lordship and cantref of Maelienydd, Cefnllys became a source of friction between Llywelyn ap Gruffudd and Roger Mortimer in the prelude to Edward I's conquest of Wales (1277–1283). Cefnllys was also the site of a borough and medieval town.

Castle Bank is often considered to be the site of an Iron Age hillfort, but there is no firm evidence to corroborate this. It has also been speculated that the princely court of a native Welsh ruler was situated nearby. The first castle at Cefnllys, 1 mi north of the ridge, was a motte-and-bailey thrown up during the early stages of the Norman invasion of Wales by the Anglo-Norman baron Ralph Mortimer, beginning a long association between the powerful Mortimer family and Cefnllys. Around 1242, after a century of prolonged conflict in the region, Ralph Mortimer II built a masonry castle on the north-east flank of Castle Bank, which quickly became the principal symbol of Mortimer hegemony in Wales. The castle was captured and slighted in 1262 by Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, Prince of Wales and Gwynedd, during a war with Henry III of England, and Cefnllys featured prominently in the ensuing Treaty of Montgomery. The construction of a new castle on the south-east side of the hill by Roger Mortimer was a contributing factor to Llywelyn's refusal to swear fealty to Edward I in 1275, leading to war in 1277.

The castle may have been sacked during the revolts of Madog ap Llywelyn (1294–1295) and Owain Glyndŵr (1400–1415), but remained occupied until at least the mid-15th century, when it was described in a series of poems by the bard Lewys Glyn Cothi. Both castles on Castle Bank are now entirely ruinous and only traces remain; the sole surviving medieval structure at Cefnllys is St Michael's Church. The town was unsuccessful and disappeared altogether as a result of the Black Death and subsequent bubonic plague outbreaks, economic remoteness and changing frontier military conditions, although Cefnllys retained its borough status until the 19th century.

Etymology
Cefnllys derives from the Welsh words cefn, meaning 'ridge', and llys, meaning 'mansion' or 'court'. Llys is associated with the unfortified courts of medieval Welsh rulers and may refer to the administrative manor (maerdref) of a local lord. The name is first mentioned in 1246 as Keventhles and the form Kevenlleece, standard in the 19th century, is recorded by 1679. Another name for the settlement and parish, Llanfihangel Cefn-llys ("church of St Michael at Cefnllys"), appears in records c. 1566 and refers to the medieval church which still stands.

An older name, Dinieithon (also Dineithon and Castell Glan Iethon), meaning "fort on the River Ieithon" (din being Old Welsh for 'fort', cognate with dun), is also related to fortifications at Cefnllys – particularly the earlier Norman castle, which is sometimes called "Cefnllys Old Castle". Dinieithon or Swydd Diniethon ("shire of Dinieithon") was the name of the commote within the cantref (hundred) of Maelienydd.

Location
The isolated ridge of Castle Bank is located 1.7 mi east of the modern town of Llandrindod Wells, Powys. It occupies a key position at the junction of several tributary valleys of the River Ithon, granting commanding views over an important communication corridor into central Wales. Cefnllys was caput (administrative centre) of Maelienydd, part of the Welsh region of Rhwng Gwy a Hafren (Between Wye and Severn). As the English Marcher lords expanded their control westward, Maelienydd formed a core part of the turbulent area known as the middle march, together with Gwrtheyrnion and Elfael. The castle was viewed as a forward defence against Welsh incursions by towns along the English border, particularly Hereford.

Description
Castle Bank is a naturally defensible position, protected on three sides by a loop of the River Ithon. The hill is open access land, and the highest point is 304 metres above sea level. The mottes of two castles are situated at opposite ends of the hill, the ruins heavily deformed and mostly rubble; only their basic characteristics have been identified. The earlier northern castle consisted of a keep within an elevated triangular inner bailey, with an accompanying outer bailey which may been entered via a gatehouse at its north-east corner. The main feature of the later southern castle was a circular (or octagonal) tower inside a walled court, separated from the main part of the ridge by a deep rock-cut ditch. There was probably a small bailey to the south-west, and a scarp across the main ridge suggests the southern half of Castle Bank may have formed a large north bailey. The outline of a building in this area is likely to be the oak hall recorded at Cefnllys in the 15th century. A stone curtain wall and rampart extended along most of the hilltop rim.

St Michael's Church sits at the foot of the hill next to the Ithon, 300 metres to the west. Earthworks surrounding the church are commonly supposed to be the remains of the medieval town. Alternatively, several historians infer that the primary settlement may have been sited within the enclosure of Castle Bank, adjacent to the castles. During the borough's later history, the population may have been dispersed along the valley, instead of being focused in a nucleated settlement. The Norman motte-and-bailey castle was located on the bank of the Ithon further upstream, 1 mi north of Castle Bank.

History
No archaeological excavation has been undertaken at Cefnllys – modern understanding of the site's history rests on contemporary texts. Prior to the 14th century, sources are limited to accounts of military campaigns and the castles are referenced in the Welsh chronicles Brut y Tywysogion and Annales Cambriae. Greater stability following Edward I's conquest of Wales resulted in a growth of documentary evidence in the Welsh Marches, though at Cefnllys this is largely restricted to rudimentary public records as the majority of the Mortimer estate archives have been lost. An extensive topographical survey combined with photogrammetry was carried out at Castle Bank in 1985 by the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales (RCAHMW), with a follow-up appraisal in 2006.

Hillfort origins
A number of scholars have suggested that the medieval castles utilised the remains of an Iron Age hillfort. Indications of a pre-Roman provenance include the ridge's large, elongated enclosure of 10 ha, interpretation of visible earthworks and the extensive use of scarping and ditching to artificially steepen the gradient of slopes surrounding the hilltop. The archaeologist A. E. Brown tentatively linked the entrance hollow-way with this period, and the banks encircling the hilltop could also have an Iron Age origin. Other features previously posited as pre-Roman were determined to be medieval by the 2006 RCAHMW report, although it did not rule out the possibility of a hillfort. The complexity of earthworks on Castle Bank is compounded by alterations caused by later agricultural use and quarrying, making confident assessment difficult. Among recent archaeological studies, Chris Martin & Robert Silvester(2011) state that the large bailey's Iron Age origins have been "convincingly argued", while Robert Scourfield & Richard Haslam(2013) surmise, on the basis of the RCAHMW report, that "the hill is no longer considered as having been first fortified in the Iron Age".

Initial medieval activity
Cefnllys is connected in tradition with Elystan Glodrydd, a 10th-century prince of Buellt and founder of the regional Welsh dynasty. The court of a Welsh ruler is assumed to have been sited nearby, but the time period, duration and precise location of such a llys are unresolved. In a Clwyd-Powys Archaeological Trust report for Cadw, Robert Silvester observed that the motte-and-bailey north of Castle Bank is considered a probable site, granting that a llys in this setting is more likely to have superseded the Norman castle than predated it, and no physical traces have been found. A silver thumb-ring recovered on Castle Bank may date from an early medieval period of Welsh occupation, and the circular graveyard ringed by yew trees could denote a pre-Norman origin of St Michael's Church. However, there is no substantive archaeological or written evidence to support any of these

The timber motte-and-bailey north of Castle Bank is assumed to be the work of Ralph Mortimer of Wigmore. One of a group of Norman barons who overran the region in 1093, Ralph is credited with the construction of a castle in Maelienydd named "Dynyetha", probably between 1093 and 1095. After his death c. 1104, the area was retaken by the Welsh and remained a disputed territory throughout the 12th century. Dinieithon was last documented in 1179, but was not described as a castle, suggesting that it had been destroyed, abandoned or possibly reused as a llys. English control was still far from secure when Llywelyn the Great, ruler of the ascendant Welsh state of Gwynedd, established his authority over southern Powys between 1208 and 1216, acting as protector and suzerain of the local Welsh dynasty. The historian Paul Remfry has speculated that the northern castle at Castle Bank may have been started in the period 1216–1234 under Llywelyn's direction, although it is generally considered to be a Mortimer creation.

First masonry castle
The death of Llywelyn in April 1240 led to an internal power struggle within Gwynedd, presenting Ralph Mortimer II with an opportunity to strengthen his position in Maelienydd. By the end of Henry III's Welsh campaign of August 1241, Ralph was in full control of the cantref and had secured submissions from the local nobility. To consolidate these gains, Ralph ordered the "strengthening" of a "castle in Maelienydd" in 1242, which in his absence was undertaken in the name of his young son Roger Mortimer. This work is identified with the north-eastern castle at Castle Bank; "strengthening" (firmavit) may imply the reconstruction of an existing castle in stone, particularly as the establishment of a castle at Cefnllys is not explicitly recorded. Subsequent primary source references to Cefnllys describe it as the "new castle". Upon Ralph's death in 1246, Cefnllys Castle is listed in a patent roll as passing into the custodianship of the crown until Roger's coming of age.

Starting in 1256, a large Welsh uprising led by Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, the new prince of Gwynedd, caused an English military reversal across Wales. By the time a truce was signed in 1260, Cefnllys had become Roger's most advanced outpost following the loss of the neighbouring commote of Gwrtheyrnion and the castle at Builth. In late November 1262, Cefnllys was seized from Roger's constable Hywel ap Meurig by a small band of Welshmen, who entered the castle "by treachery" and took Hywel and his family captive, before sending word to Llywelyn of their success and torching the castle. In response, Roger Mortimer levied an army of Marcher lords and arrived at Cefnllys to start repairs on the walls, but was caught off guard when Llywelyn surrounded him with a larger force. After a three-week siege within the damaged and unprovisioned castle, during which Llywelyn's soldiers sacked Roger's other castles at Bleddfa and Knucklas, Roger was forced to negotiate safe passage. Llywelyn allowed the Marcher force to retreat, a chivalrous gesture probably designed to strengthen his case at future peace negotiations, before destroying the remaining defences and continuing his campaign against England. The impact of Cefnllys' fall is illustrated in a letter written to Henry III by Peter of Aigueblanche, bishop of Hereford, as he fled for Gloucester: "Mortimer's castle of Cefnllys has capitulated: Roger and his retinue have left unharmed. All this has led to rumours of treachery and the whole March is in terror."

The peace signed at the Treaty of Montgomery in September 1267 was a major success for Llywelyn, granting him formal recognition as Prince of Wales. Even though Cefnllys remained outside of his direct control and Roger Mortimer was permitted to rebuild the castle, Roger would provisionally hold the land on Llywelyn's behalf, as long as Llywelyn could demonstrate his right to it. Cefnllys, and the ambiguous clause regarding it, would become an imminent point of contention.

Second masonry castle
"In the treaty [of Montgomery] it was provided that Roger Mortimer could only repair the castle at Kefen y Llys in Maelienid and that when the said castle was restored, justice should be done to Llywelyn concerning both the castle and the adjacent lands, according to the laws and customs of the Marches. This justice Llywelyn has not been able, so far, to obtain, although the said work has long been repaired. But the said Roger has, against the form of the peace, and to Llywelyn's prejudice, constructed a new work, not merely a fence, as has been suggested to the king, but a wide and deep ditch, and stones and timber have been brought to construct a fortress unless it is prevented by the king or by Llywelyn." Roger Mortimer moved quickly to refortify Castle Bank after the Treaty of Montgomery. The northern castle may have been repaired before the end of 1267, when Llywelyn wrote to Henry III complaining about the status of Cefnllys. Roger then started building a new, stronger castle on the southern side of the ridge, which Llywelyn, who interpreted the treaty as only permitting repairs to the existing castle, viewed as a provocation. Llywelyn sent a letter to Edward I on 22 July 1273 or 1274 protesting Roger's "new work", and requested that Edward prevent construction from continuing, lest he take action himself. The argument over Cefnllys was foremost among a series of territorial disputes between Llywelyn and the Marcher lords, which fed into a deteriorating climate of suspicion and distrust, further increased when Edward accepted defectors from Llywelyn's realm in 1274. The historian Robert Rees Davies wrote that Llywelyn, who also faced intense financial and domestic pressure, came to suspect "an orchestrated attempt to undermine his hard-won gains, especially in the middle March, and to subvert the terms of the Treaty of 1267". These grievances escalated into Llywelyn's refusal to pay homage to Edward I in 1275 and fuelled Edward's determination to pacify the insubordinate prince, culminating in Edward's subjugation of Wales between 1277 and 1283.

Cefnllys was not directly attacked in the ensuing conflict but formed part of a chain of garrisoned castles encircling Llywelyn's territories, which contributed to the rebellion's suppression. Roger died in 1282 and his heir, Edmund Mortimer, 2nd Baron Mortimer, paid for a garrison of eight horsemen and 20 footmen throughout the second phase of fighting (1282–3). In October 1294, Cefnllys was listed as one of the castles captured by "Rees ap Morgan" during the revolt of Madog ap Llywelyn, although the archaeologists David Browne & Alastair Pearson have expressed uncertainty over this account. In 1306, the castle passed into the hands of Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March, who led an unsuccessful rebellion against Edward II which resulted in the confiscation of his holdings, including Cefnllys, in 1322. Roger returned from exile in 1326 and successfully overthrew Edward, briefly becoming de facto ruler of England alongside Queen Isabella, until he was executed in 1330 by Edward III. Cefnllys was forfeited by the Mortimers as punishment but returned to the family the following year. Repairs of the castle and its hall were carried out from 1356 to 1357, and at the outbreak of the Welsh uprising led by Owain Glyndŵr in 1400, Cefnllys was in temporary royal custody. Records show that it was defended by a well-provisioned force of 12 spearmen and 30 archers – a detailed register of supplies sent to the castle in 1403 survives. This may have been insufficient, as a 1405 grant to Richard Grey described the lordship as "burned and wasted by the Welsh rebels", though it is unclear whether the castle itself was sacked or if the destruction was limited to its hinterland.

The castle survived into the 15th century in a reparable state, but its upkeep was increasingly neglected as advances in warfare and shifting social patterns undermined its importance. The death of Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March, of plague in 1425 marked the end of the Mortimer male line and the castle was inherited by Edmund's nephew Richard, Duke of York, who paid for repair work and appointed officials from a new class of Welsh office-holders to manage his distant estate. Throughout the Marches, minor Welsh nobles were rising to positions of local power, and they preferred the comfort of oak courts to draughty stone castles: in the view of historian Richard Suggett, change was "expressed architecturally by the decay of the masonry castles... and by the building of new timber halls at or near the castle sites by the Welshmen of influence within a lordship". The pre-eminent mid-15th century travelling poet Lewys Glyn Cothi composed four poems regarding Cefnllys, including one which describes such a hall on Castle Bank. The poems, which survive in a manuscript from 1468 (although they probably date from 1432 to 1459), praise the Welshman Ieuan ap Phylip, who was constable of Cefnllys Castle and receiver of the lordship of Maelienydd. Ieuan had a two-storey hall built to exhibit his status and entertain guests, and, uniquely, Lewys' poetry records the name of the master carpenter as Rhosier ab Owain. The accession of Richard's son and heir, Edward, to the English throne in 1461 caused Cefnllys to become crown property. It was included in a grant of predominantly ruined castles to Prince Arthur by Henry VII in 1493, and the antiquarian John Leland recorded that the castle was "now downe" in the first half of the 16th century. The castle was described as ruins in a 1687 deed of sale.

Castle town
The Mortimers encouraged the development of a castle town at Cefnllys in order to consolidate their hold on the surrounding land, as well as the wider cantref. The date of its establishment is unrecorded, and its existence is first documented in 1297 with the granting of a market charter. It was accorded borough status in 1304 when it possessed 25 burgesses, a church and a town mill. Records of pontage indicate the existence of a toll bridge, and a deer park was recorded in 1360. The presence of a manor at Cefnllys was highly unusual given the upland terrain and demonstrates the Mortimers' efforts to establish manorialism in Maelienydd. Their rule was unpopular among the local Welsh, who in 1297 took their complaints to Edward I, compelling Edmund Mortimer to restore the traditional court at nearby Cymaron as an alternative to the manorial court at Cefnllys Castle. The lord's authority remained limited to the district surrounding the castle and only limited tribute, rather than rent, was extracted from the wider Welsh community.

The lack of visible remains has meant the town's location has not been conclusively proven. The population may have been small enough to fit within the enclosure of Castle Bank, and supporters of this interpretation emphasise the settlement's military role as a garrison town. In this view, the stone wall surrounding Castle Bank would have formed part of the town defences. The more frequent explanation is that the settlement was concentrated around St Michael's Church, where there would have been easy access to the mill and a nearby spring. A series of earthworks surrounding the church may represent raised causeways, sunken roads and medieval house platforms, although archaeological finds have been mostly from the Tudor period or later. The church's structure is of 13th century origin, but the date of its founding is unknown and it was heavily restored in 1895.

The town was small, remote and short-lived: growth stalled before 1332 and in 1383 it was recorded as having only 10 residents. Davies comments that its location, accompanying a castle site chosen for defensiveness and ability to radiate strategic power, undermined its economic viability: "the artificiality of [its] commercial setting was too obvious once the military opportunities... had been removed". The economic weakness of Cefnllys is also emphasised by historians Oliver Creighton and Robert Higham. Major outbreaks of bubonic plague across Britain in 1349, 1361–62 and 1369 contributed to its failure, and the persistent threat of violent conflict within the March expedited its demise. Cefnllys remained a borough after the decline of the medieval settlement, and according to the 1831 census it comprised, besides the church and castle ruins, 16 inhabitants in "three Farm Houses and one small Cottage".

title: Cefnllys Castle