text:
Talk:Ǧ

Request move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move. — Nightstallion (?) 09:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Request move because most other alphabets use the alphabet itself as the name of the article. G-caron can be considered as a variant of G, --Hello World! 14:23, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~

 * I strongly oppose moving the page from G-caron to Ǧ. CDThieme 00:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose—titles are the names of things, not the things. —Michael Z. 2006-01-23 15:10 Z
 * Dubious Oppose The suggested name doesn't even display on my monitor; how am I going to watch this? Septentrionalis 01:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose: agree with MZ, especially when the character is not displayable on many systems. Jonathunder 11:46, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
The assertion in the proposed move is false; only the twenty-six letters of the Latin Alphabet for English are named using the familiar letters. For other characters there is no consistent usage, but most of them use a title which is written out. We shouldn't have articles at "Ǧ", "Þ", "Ж", "Ѩ", "한", or "₴"—how on Earth would an average reader know that their titles are "G-caron", "Thorn", "Zhe", "Little Yus iotified", "Han", and "Hryvnia"? Simply put, titles should be readable. —Michael Z. 2006-01-23 15:25 Z
 * I just saw this page in Windows Explorer. It's even worse than expected—only two of my one-character links even display (Safari/Mac displays all but the last, which is part of Unicode 4.1).  —Michael Z. 2006-01-24 03:27 Z

I can see the revised target; which is an improvement. But: Dubiously, Septentrionalis 04:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Can everybody?
 * Is it practical to use a template in a page name?
 * Can editors link to this?
 * it's still a little square in my edit screen.
 * And why not WP:Use English?

 * Your dubiousness is warranted. Netoholic made it display on some Windows systems by putting it into template:Unicode on the page above, but:
 * This won't work in many contexts, most importantly the actual title of an article at the top of the page; also the title bar of a browser window
 * This still doesn't work on my vanilla Windows XP system, probably due to lack of support in the default fonts installed
 * It now displays with visible doubled square brackets Ǧ, because template:Unicode breaks the move template above
 * Nice try, Neto. —Michael Z. 2006-01-24 05:08 Z

The title !Xóõ language is obviously unreadble by most people using English only. Would some of you consider move it? Furthermore, if you oppose the move of G-caron to Ǧ, please consider move the following articles to an “English-readable title”. (Ć, Ĉ, Ĝ, Ĥ, Ĵ, Ŝ, Ã, Ñ, Õ, Ā, Ă, Ğ, Ŭ, Ä, Ö, Å, Č, Ǩ, Ž, Ǯ, Ș, Ş) --Hello World! 15:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Also ß, Ø, Ɔ, Ɛ, Dž, Ƒ --Hello World! 09:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

 * For starters, four of those letters don't display on a default Windows XP system. Their pages would have a blank box for the title at the top.  Not acceptable.

 * !Xóõ is a readable name to English readers, "Xoo", even if they don't know how to pronounce it. What would they call Ǯ?  This letter's name is ezh, with a caron, and it is not part of the English Latin alphabet—in English the word ezh is not spelled "ʒ", it is spelled "ezh".  The name of the letter ñ is "enye".  The English name of the letter a is "A", but "Č" is not English nor a name at all.  May as well call an article "한".

 * Naming conventions (use English) says that articles should be titled using English names. Why on Earth do you want these articles to be titled by single non-English letters? —Michael Z. 2006-01-24 18:44 Z

 * Should we move ñ to enye? I acknowlegde that there should be an agreement of the title of such articles, and modify WP:UE and wipe off the “Disputed issues” section.--Hello World! 03:30, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I think Ñ should probably be moved to its Spanish (native) name "Enye", or possibly the descriptive title "N with tilde". Those disputed issues should be cleaned up, but I think most of these letter articles are a different issue.  For example, the difference between Vuk Stefanović Karadžić and Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic is not that major—some readers may find the diacritics puzzling, but they can read either name, even if they can't pronounce it.  On the other hand, Ezh is a name, but ʒ simply is not.  The more familiar letters with diacritics are less confusing, but I feel they should be titled according to the same principle.  —Michael Z. 2006-01-25 05:52 Z
 * In any case, so what? That should be discussed in Talk:Ñ. Wikipedia is inconsistent; and a good thing too. Septentrionalis 05:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

title: Talk:Ǧ


text:
Pictones

The Pictones were a Gallic tribe dwelling south of the Loire river, in the modern departments of Vendée, Deux-Sèvres and Vienne, during the Iron Age and Roman period.

Name
They are mentioned as Pictonibus and Pictones by Julius Caesar (mid-1st c. BC), Piktónōn (Πικτόνων) by Strabo (early 1st c. AD), Pictones by Pliny the Elder (1st c. AD), Píktones (Πίκτονες; var. πήκτωνες, πήκτονες, πίκτωνες) by Ptolemy (2nd c. AD), and as Pictonici by Ausonius (4th c. AD). They were also known as Pictavi in an inscription (2nd c. AD), the Notitia Galliarum (4th c. AD) and by Ammianus Marcellinus (4th c. AD).

The city of Poitiers, attested ca. 356 AD as urbis Pictavorum (Pictavis in 400–410, Peitieus [*Pectievs] in 1071–1127), and the region of Poitou, are named after the Gallic tribe.

Geography
The Pictones dwelled south-east of the Namnetes, west of the Bituriges Cubi, north-west of the Lemovices, and north of the Santones. Initially included in Gallia Celtica, their territory was later integrated into the province of Aquitania.

La Tène period
The Pictones minted coins from the end of the 2nd century BC. The tribe was first noted in written sources when encountered by Julius Caesar. Caesar depended on their shipbuilding skills for his fleet on the Loire. Their chief town Lemonum, the Celtic name of modern-day Poitiers (Poitou), is located on the south bank of the Liger. Ptolemy mentions a second town, Ratiatum (modern Rezé).

The political organization of the region was modeled on the royal Celtic system. Duratios was king of the Pictones during the Roman conquest, but his power waned thanks to the poor skill of his generals. However, the Pictones frequently aided Julius Caesar in naval battles, particularly with the naval victory over the Veneti on the Armorican peninsula.

Roman rule
The Pictones had felt threatened by the migration of the Helvetians toward the territory of the Santones and supported the intervention of Caesar in 58 BC. Though fiercely independent, they and the Santones collaborated with Caesar, especially on the coasts and seas, as late as 55 BC., who noted them as one of the more civilized tribes. Nevertheless, 8000 men were sent to aid Vercingetorix, the chieftain who led the Gaulish rebellion in 52 BC. This act divided the Pictones and the region was the location of a later uprising, especially around Lemonum. This was later quelled by legate Gaius Caninius Rebilus and finally by Caesar himself.

The Pictones benefited from Roman peace, notably through many urban constructions such as aqueducts and temples. A thick wall built in the 2nd century AD encircles the city of Lemonum and is one of the distinguishing architectural forms of Gaulish antiquity. However, the Pictones were not Romanized in depth. Lemonum quickly adopted Christianity in the first two centuries AD.

The region was known for its timber resources and occasionally traded with the Roman province of Transalpine Gaul. Additionally, the Pictones traded with the British Isles from the harbor of Ratiatum (Rezé), which served as an important port linking Gaul and Roman Britain.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Pictones


text: Category:Disability-related lists

title: Category:Disability-related lists


text:
Nadine Lambert

Nadine Murphy Lambert (October 21, 1926 – April 26, 2006) was an American psychologist and educator. She founded the school psychology program at the University of California, Berkeley, created new instruments for school psychology use, and studied the course of children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). Lambert was a member of the board of directors of the American Psychological Association from 1984 to 1987.

Biography
Lambert was born in Ephraim, Utah, to Rulon and Maude Murphy, and raised in West Hollywood, California. After earning an undergraduate degree at the University of California, Los Angeles, and a Master of Education at Cal State University Los Angeles, she received a Ph.D. in psychology from the University of Southern California. Her doctoral studies focused on psychometrics.

She began her career as a kindergarten teacher. She later worked as guidance consultant and school psychologist and then as a research consultant with the California Department of Education. In this position, she worked closely with Eli Bower on programs to improve the mental health of students. She joined the University of California, Berkeley, in 1964 as a member of the faculty of the Graduate School of Education and founded the school psychology program there in the same year. The National Institute of Mental Health supported the program for 18 years. Lambert's latest research was on the measurement of adaptive functioning, and on the developmental course of ADHD. A Fellow of the American Psychological Association, she also served on its board of directors (1984–87) and chaired its Board of Educational Affairs from 1992 to 1994. Lambert wrote such instruments in school psychology as the AAMD Adaptive Behavior Scale (1981 and 1993 editions) and the Children's Attention and Adjustment Survey (1992).

Lambert's other writings include "Educational Reform: Challenges for Psychology and Psychologists" in Professional Psychology (1996); "Adolescent Outcomes for Hyperactive Children: Perspectives on General and Specific Patterns of Childhood Risk for Adolescent Educational, Social, and Mental Health Problems" in American Psychologist (1988); "Persistence of Hyperactive Symptoms from Childhood to Adolescence" in the American Journal of Orthopsychiatry (1987); and "Conceptual Foundations for School Psychology: Perspectives from the Development of the School Psychology Program at Berkeley" in Professional School Psychologist (1986). She also edited the volume How Children Learn: Reforming Schools through Learner-Centered Education (1998).

She was involved in several controversies. In 1995, she was one of 52 signatories on "Mainstream Science on Intelligence, " an editorial written by Linda Gottfredson and published in The Wall Street Journal, which declared the consensus of the signing scholars on issues related to the controversy about intelligence research that followed the publication of the book The Bell Curve. At the 1998 National Institutes of Health Consensus Conference on AD/HD, she announced the results of a study suggesting that use of Ritalin might contribute to later drug abuse. Of nearly 400 children with ADHD, those treated with Ritalin as children had double the rates of cocaine use and cigarette smoking as young adults, compared to those who had not taken Ritalin in childhood.

She was killed in a car accident on her way to work in 2006.

title: Nadine Lambert


text:
C-Net DS2

C-Net DS2 (Developers System, Second Generation) was a full featured, single-line, bulletin board system (BBS) software system released in 1986 for the Commodore 64 microcomputer. The DS2 system was notable in that its authors proved that it was possible to perform significant and useful serious computing tasks on a hardware platform with such severely limited resources that even the manufacturer called it only a "game machine".

The Commodore-64 was a simple computer, based on the MOS Technology 6502 8-bit microprocessor, with 64 kilobytes of RAM, only 38k of which was available for program code and variables that could be used by the built-in BASIC programming language interpreter. Nevertheless, several different BBS programs were developed (including DS2) by various independent programmers (mostly hobbyists not affiliated with any large software publisher) that enabled a System Operator (SysOp) to run a single-user, multiple member online community supporting threaded topical discussions, on-line games; information reference library, live chat mode with the console operator, file-sharing library and the ability to create a customized user experience in BASIC, thus the Developers System title.

From an engineering standpoint, C-Net DS2 was remarkable in its use of Machine language modules, early multitasking technology, relocatable code, and modular program overlays. Although the user experience was entirely text-based and non-graphical, fast performance could be attained through the use of memory expansion modules, IEEE-488 interface hard drives, and modem speeds including the mid-1980s state of the art 19,200 bit/s.

Although the emergence of widely available public internet services has made private BBS systems obsolete in most of the developed free world, a dedicated core of enthusiasts continue to tinker with vintage computers and keep software like DS2 running, despite the quaint limitations of the simple linear message threading system and the primitive keyboard-based, non-graphical games.

C-Net 64 DS2 also had networking capabilities using Gary O'Brien's DS2 Network developed in 1989. This modification or add-on to C-Net DS2 BBS allowed it to connect to other C-Net BBS's and transfer a single file packet composed of all messages, email and stats from online games since the last connection. The packet would be uploaded to the receiving BBS and another packet tagged for that BBS would be downloaded. Both systems would then sort and file the packets on their systems making the new information available on each system. Gary continued to develop DS2 Network until mid-1993, then turned over rights and development to Michael Bendure.

Michael eventually took over support and distribution of both C-Net 64 DS2 BBS and DS2 Network from 1993 to 1998. An article in Commodore World Magazine; Issue 3 Volume 1, Number 3 that detailed DS2 Network features and network structure was published in 1994. Michael worked with BBS programmers on other platforms to develop a standard packet structure that all BBS Networks could convert into their existing Networks. This project later became known as CommNet and covered hundreds of BBS's all over the world running C-Net DS2, C-Net 128, Image, Color64 and even some FidoNet BBS's. C-Net DS2 is currently in development. Visit www.cnet64.com for more information.

title: C-Net DS2


text:
Talk:KTVX

Old Callsign
KTVX used to broadcast under the callsign "KCPX". This information was previously placed under "Former Affiliations" in the infobox, which I don't think was fitting. I would place it under a section on the station's history, but I don't know that much about the station, so I didn't start such a section. I'm putting this here for reference. - Hinto 02:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

If you search on Google (I will leave the search to you rather than figuring out the external references thing for now), you will find that the experimental call sign was W6XIS, not W6SIX. RichOrem (talk) 00:36, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

High profile censorship incident
A section on a high-profile incident of censorship that made all the papers has been removed twice. I have added it back. If someone has a legitimate reason for changing it other than trying to censor the station's image, I would be far more receptive to edits designed to make the paragraph more accurate or balanced than censoring it.

The current form of the paragraph on the censorship incident now mentions KSL as a station not giving in to censorship. But KSL is NBC, which just apparently turned down advertising of a film about the Dixie Chicks', because "they are disparaging of President Bush." This was not a local incident as the KTVX censorship incident claimed to be.198.60.22.24 18:16, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Revert War
One user with multiple accounts (User:RSPW Poster & User:RSPW Coaster) is removing the reference to censorship by ClearChannel and the ownership of rival station KSL-TV with absolutely no justification. Can we have this article protected from said abuse? Chadbryant 22:02, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

 * There is no "Revert War." It is all a figment of Mr. Bryant's fertil yet misguided imagination.  I am removing the last portion of the entry because its sole purpose is to show a positive spin on the Mormon Church.  Even when there have been previous entries attempting to remind others that these ARE Mormons, Chad removed them -- why?  What did the simply entry of "(Mormons)" do to allegedly vandalize the entry, as he's tried to claim in the past?  Barring that, and staying with this, it should be noted that Chadbryant *is* a member of the LDS Church, which is why he put the entry up in the first place.  This is justification -- it was done as a matter of a personal opinion.  Slanted, sure, but this "FOX News" style of Wikipedia editing should have no place on the site!  RSPW Coaster

I would say keep the paragraph but remove the line about KSL and the mormons. If it made a national paper it is news worthy. But at the same time pushing an agenda of making ksl, and the mormons, look "good" is not good NPOV. A 09:27, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I think the line about KSL is quite relevant. It was mentioned in the USA Today article for a reason. Utah Mormons, which are a majority in Utah, generally are strongly, even hostilely, aligned with the war parties (Republican or some Democrat) yet even the LDS-owned KSL could see that free speech was at issue here and said so. This is just an important fact. I did not add this language, and I let it be edited out when it seemed that those trying to censor out the censorship incident altogether would make a compromise with the simpler paragraph, but now that the paragraph has been edited out so many times since by those apparently trying to censor the image of KTVX, I think it should be left in.  No doubt KTVX hates to be revealed in such an extreme position.

 * There are 16 paragraphs in the article, the quote from KSL and the line that it is owned by the LDS church is in paragraph 13. More of a passing mention then the body of the article. My position above still stands. May seem important to Utah wikipedians, but would look like lds agenda pushing to those outside utah, imo. Also, please sign your comments, even if you do not have an account, you can do this by adding four ~'s in a row. A 21:20, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

 * As noted above, the portion describing the ownership of KSL is both relevant and germaine to the article. Those who are constantly removing it do so only because of their own agenda and bigotry. Chadbryant 04:44, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * "Bigotry?" All I'm asking is that you stop putting pro-Mormon remarks into your article because I suspect the only reason you continue to do so is because you yourself are a follower of the Mormon Church.  I never said anything about hating any particular religion, race, etc.   Try again, Chad.  RSPW Coaster 21:11, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I still do not agree with the inclusion of the line regarding KSL and the LDS church. If it was both "relevant and germane" then it would have been in the first few paragraphs of the article mentioned. In the inverted pyramid style of journalism, the most relevant information is at the first of the article. The useless tidbits such as that even the mormon owned station in the market played the ad go at the bottom of the article. Personal agenda of RSPW or not, it should not be in the paragraph. Do you have a good argument of why it SHOULD be included? A 07:58, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

So RSPW, are you going to talk about the article in here and come to a compromise or are you just going to keep reverting in hopes of getting a ban? I think my proposal of keeping the paragraph but removing the reference to ksl and the lds church is fair, but by mindlessly reverting you are making it hard to make the case for it. A 01:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * The argument to include the text about KSL seems to have been made clearly (and similar text appeared in other national and local articles). Some counter-argument has been made to omit it, which doesn't seem to answer the argument well, but looking back through the edit history, the one making the changes has admitted vandalism: "well hell, as long as you continue to lie about there being vandalism, I may as well oblidge ya.", and continued removing the whole thing, which had also happened when the text was not even there. The whole paragraph has been removed so many times when it did not contain the language that it is clear there is more at issue than that part of the text. While the paragraph stands very well in minimal form without the KSL reference, which merely elaborates on the fact that KTVX was the only local station which did not air the add the ad and that Clear Channel was applying First Ammendment differently from others, the more the vandals behave like KTVX shills, the more we may as well leave it in.  This has never been about the image of the Mormon Church.  This has been about trying to make KTVX look good by censoring their image, as the behavior clearly demonstrated when the language was present and not present. 198.60.22.24 14:51, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Um...okay...the only reason why I said "well hell, as long as you continue [ . . .]" was because at that point, it had become glaringly obvious to me that Chadbryant was going to continue with his bullshit claim of "vandalism" in his justification for placing those remarks back in. He had -- and still continues in doing so -- used a flimsy, watershed excuse of "vandalism" in this article entry and others to try to justify to himself and -- most importantly -- to Wikipedia administrators, in an attempt to get his own warped agenda over and make others look like the bad guys. See "Stannie Get Your Gun" entry for American Dad as a good example -- a single line of trivia was placed into the article.  The trivia was correct, justified, and in no way harmed or broke down the article, yet simply because someone he disliked had placed the remark into the entry, Chad removed it and claimed "vandalism."  It should be noted he eventually received a 24 hour ban as a result.  Point being, I meant no real disrespect -- I simply was fed up by his pathetic and petty behavior, and knew that there was no way he was going to stop until he hit a ban.  --  RSPW Coaster 21:24, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm glad that someone is bothering to actualy talk about this rather then just revert over and over and over. However, your words would mean alot more if they were not comming from a proxy. For everyone else's information, 198.60.22.24 is socks.xmission.com, a proxy that could be used to hide one's identity. I am still waiting for a good argument in favor of keeping the line about KSL in. A 20:26, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I consider RSPW "discussion" dishonest, because it has always resulted in removing the entire paragraph and such self-admitted vandalism. The discussion was clearly there before, as were versions without the text RSPW claims is leading RSPW to remove the entire paragraph.  There are still roughly a hundred page hits remaining on Google which thought the KSL reference was significant. There were twice the number which did not. As I said before, I could live without the KSL reference, because it is only an elaboration, albeit one that was significant.  It looks like the war started over even sillier little changes and did not initially question whether the KSL should be mentioned. 198.60.22.24 21:09, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * By creating an account and signing in you increase your anonymity, not vice-versa. Hall Monitor 21:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I would agree if it were not for the fact that over 30k subscribers have the ability to hide behind this ip. Once again, I'm not saying that this poster has, just that there is the possibility. A 04:51, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

A asked for a 3rd party. Here it is: this revert war must stop. My suggestion is this: it is evident by the source article that the information in the disputed paragraph is factual and informative. However, the wording of the paragraph could be better adjusted. By adjusting the positioning of the conjectured sentence in the paragraph so it is more of a context then an extra point would make it more worthwhile. So perhaps saying which stations did screen the ad would have more merit then the statement that KTVX was the only station, which has what I would perceive as negative connotations. Just my 2 cents. MyNameIsNotBob 06:59, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

 * The revert war is only happening because of two unrelated parties working in concert - the abusive user currently running the "DinkSocks" of User:RSPW Poster & User:RSPW Coaster (who is doing it only because I fixed the reference to "Mormon Church" [incorrect] to "LDS Church" [proper terminology], and has been doing similar vandalizing edits/reverts to other articles I've contributed to), and an IP belonging to ClearChannel Communications, which has attacked this article in the past for pointing out CC's censorship of anti-war/anti-Bush/anti-Republican content. Both of these contributors are of little or no value to Wikipedia as a whole, and their biases & bigotry should not be allowed to influence the content of an article. Their reasons for vandalizing the article as written have nothing to do with wanting to improve it, and everything to do with removing contributions that they disagree with for whatever reason. Chadbryant 07:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Oh would you just SHUT THE FUCK UP already?!?! The only one who has "no value to Wikipedia as a whole" is YOURSELF.  YOU constantly put YOUR own values and opinions into articles that would be best left unsubstantiated in that form or simply left as they are.  A good example of this would be the rec.sport.pro-wrestling entry where you put your opinion back into the entry after being told months before it should be left OUT of the entry.  You are always crying "Mommy! The article has vandalism! I need to revert it, Waaaah, Waaah, Waah!" and when you aren't screaming your head off in a restaurant annoying other patrons with your ludicrous justifications of "vandalism" you are yelling at the waiter about how much "harrassment" there is.  Frankly I think you would be best off banned not just for 24 hours, but permanently; however, that's not my decision to make, just as it's not YOUR decision to label other user accounts as so-called "sockpuppets" simply because your paranoid nature suspects them as so!

 * Anyhow...I believe the Mormon Church reference should not be within the article. Who cares who owns the stations?  The behavior of the stations are not relevant; rather, their factual information, up to and including anchorpersons and other such trivia, should be included.  There are many ways to phrase the article without putting pro-Mormon propaganda into the mix; as has been stated before, the only reason that Chadbryant believes it to be "vandalism" or "improvement" or whatever damn thing he's harking about this week is because HE is Mormon; thus, his reasons for the information going into it cannot be placed into the article in a completely neutral manner or placement of thought.  As for "Mormon" to "LDS," who really cares?  Both are correct, in this instance, and an outsider to the entry would be able to comprehend the point of the "facts" either way.

 * For those who would believe Mr. Chadbryant to be some good Wikipedia Samaritin, I suggest you do a little bit of research on the subject first. He has a long, drawn-out history on Wikipedia to place his own opinions and petty behaviors into their entries (see his recent 24 hour ban for violation of the 3RR rule as a good example) and this is no exception. I am more than willing to discuss this "problem" (though I don't see how there is one other than Chad's biasedness and social phobias coming to light in a cybertext form) on this talk page, so long as Mr. Chadbryant does not come along and delete my comments or edit my entries, as he has been found to have a history of doing so! -- RSPW Coaster 21:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC) 21:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Chadbryant, thank you for actualy responding rather then just reverting. While I am not sold on the line including the reference to KSL, I agree with you that the paragraph in some form should stay. I would still like to get a compromise out of RSPW, but baring that, I think seeking some protection of the article is the correct line of action after this many reverts back and forth, vandalism or not. RSPW, do you have anything to add to the discussion? A 07:41, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Who owns the stations is very relevant, as is the statement made by the KSL-TV rep. I am content to let people figure that out for themselves by following the reference (or a hundred others on the web that mentioned it, search for keywords ktvx, sheehan, ksl) but having it in the article is not a bad thing. Chadbryant is technically right in changing the name of the Church, for several reasons, but wrong in insisting on it to the point where there is a war over it and vandalism overshadows the content of the article (and I wouldn't have bothered changing the name in the first place). On the other hand, I am not sure he can be blamed, with the wacko behavior of RSPW who keeps censoring all the information in this article that was not placed there by the Clear Channel shill and has apparently thus far only done harm to the article, as far as I know and his edits have regularly gone way beyond what he claimed was wrong with the article, invalidating whatever argument he felt he had. It seems like he has some vendetta and stalks Chadbryant who probably goes around making harmless corrections to the references of the Mormon church, which is probably what brought him to the article. The RSPW rant above speaks for itself. Mezle 23:00, 6 December 2005 (UTC) (formerly posting as 198.60.22.24)

 * "Speaks for itself?" If you mean did I sum up Chadbryant's behavior, then yes, it "speaks for itself." Notice how he is still claiming "vandalism" despite there being none. I don't know what his hang up is with vandalism -- perhaps he spent time in juvenile hall as a child for such acts?  At any rate, I wasn't "censoring" anything -- I was removing it based on my belief it was only placed there due to Chadbryant's pro-Mormon beliefs and the fact that he is/was a member of their church and as such was attempting to make them look like the "better" in this situation. Actually given that he hates George Bush and our current government, putting those remarks in there makes a lot more sense in retrospect than anything else; posters to rec.sport.pro-wrestling could certainly back that up.  But, for now, just make yourself happy in knowing you are incorrect in your assessment of "stalking" or "vendetta" -- and I can assure you that Chadbryant is FAR from "harmless."  RSPW Coaster 01:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * There is no such entity as the "Mormon Church" - it's a slang term that developed due to the ignorance of people not familiar with the LDS Church. Referring to LDS Church members or the church itself as "Mormons" is also incorrect. The only reason I changed the reference to "Mormon Church" is because it is incorrect.
 * As far as User:RSPW Coaster is concerned, that is the latest in an incredibly long line of sockpuppets employed by one infamous Usenet troll who has brought his troublemaking to Wikipedia in order to attack any article I've had any input on, as well as my user & talk pages. There is an entire category devoted to this individual's numerous sockpuppets, most of which are suspended indefinitely within a few days of creation. Chadbryant 01:02, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Does it matter if there is "no such entity?" Whether it's slang or not, it's still in the popular lexicon, and more people are going to think of the "Mormon Church" rather than the "LDS Church."
 * As far as the accusation of sockpuppetry, this is laughable at best! Chadbryant has a history of declaring other users on Wikipedia as "sockpuppets" without any rhyme or reason for doing so other than his own paranoia and his biased agenda towards those who would go up against him and say he is wrong.  For if there is one thing Chadbryant REALLY hates, it's when someone proves or attempts to prove that he's wrong.  But Chadbryant's out-of-control ego is not the issue here.  -- RSPW Coaster 01:17, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, User:RSPW Coaster is still engaging in his revert war, well beyond the 3RR rule. His edits have done nothing more than insert style-violating and nonsensical material into the article. Chadbryant 01:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Unfortunately, User:Chadbryant is still engaging in his revert war, well beyond the 3RR rule. His edits have done nothing more than insert his own opinion and nonsensical material into the article. RSPW Coaster 02:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

How about this? just stop, remove all contentious stuff on the page, and wait for three (3) days. Seventy-two (72) hours. During that time, maybe imagine that a firestorm destroys half your city; or that doctors announce they have discovered a cure for cancer. Then reflect about how unimportant this Wikipedia edit issue here is in the great scheme of things. Breathe deeply, feel glad to be alive, and realize that you are a good person and the other party in this edit war probably has people who think they are a good person as well.

Then comes the easy part, just be flexible and clever and come up with something for the article that you can both live with before moving on.

Please for the sake of all of us, agree to start with a three-day cooling off period, I mean really.RomaC 14:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

3RR violations
Several users are in violation of the three revert rule, an action which warrants being blocked. To be fair to all parties involved, please read WP:3RR and discuss your changes rather than revert warring. Hall Monitor 21:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Reverting an article to remove vandalism (in this case, numerous deletions & style-violating attacks on the paragraph regarding the Cindy Sheehan ad) does not violate the 3RR rule. Chadbryant 22:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

 * There is no "vandalism" -- this seems to be Mr. Bryant's favorite word to justify his behavior here on Wikipedia. Not only is he using it above, he's also used it in dozens of other entries to satisfy his own warmped agenda.  Regarding a possible violation of the 3RR rule, Chadbryant was recently banned for 24 hours for violating it in another entry (though he continues to remove references of this from his talk page in a petty attempt to ignore it).  I would go so far as to suggest he should experience the same for this entry. RSPW Coaster 02:06, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Compromise
Alright the article has been modified to read as follows:

During George W. Bush's visit to Salt Lake City to speak to the Veterans of Foreign Wars on August 22, 2005, KTVX was the only local television station that did not air the paid political message of Cindy Sheehan against the war in Iraq[1]. The station's owners Clear Channel Communications claimed that the ad would offend its viewers. However, rival KSL-TV did not hesitate to air the ad.

Would everyone please leave it alone. A 02:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * That censors the newsworthy fact that KSL is owned by the LDS Church (or, more accurately, Bonneville International, a business arm of the LDS Church). I don't consider censorship of any newsworthy fact to be a compromise, and the vandalism of a corporate shill looking to save face for his/her company, or a multi-sock vandal like User:RSPW Coaster should not be a catalyst for censorship. Chadbryant 03:23, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * "That censors the newsworthy fact that KSL is owned by the LDS Church." -- Um, how is that newsworthy exactly?  All I see is pro-Mormon biasedness from you, Chad.  I don't see how the fact that it's owned by Mormons makes it any more relevant than if it was owned by say the Southern Baptists or the Catholics.  You don't consider censorship a compromise? Is that why you are abusing Wikipedia all over the place and falsely claiming "vandalism" to justify your edits?  Nor do you have any proof that I am "multi-sock" in any form.  You are just angry because this leaves the LDS/Mormon part out, and you'll do almost anything as a loyal member to ensure its PR relief.  RSPW Coaster 03:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Chadbryant, first of, a difference in opinion IS NOT VANDALISM! Also, I have asked you for some justification of why the 1 paragraph summary of a 16 paragraph article has to include a passing mention from paragraph 13 (KSL/Mormons). You or anyone else has yet to make a good argument other then "if it made the news it is newsworthy." I am sick of this revert war and the childlike bickering that you two let spill over from your "pro" wreastling past. Asking for an unofficial opinion from an admin didn't do any good, asking for a third party opinion in #wikipedia did no good. I have just put up a request on Wikiquette_alerts, I hope it helps end this pointless revert war. A 07:03, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Deliberately reverting an article to one that uses incorrect terminology, or removing a reference that casts the subject in a negative light without justification *is* vandalism. As noted above:

 * Utah Mormons, which are a majority in Utah, generally are strongly, even hostilely, aligned with the war parties (Republican or some Democrat) yet even the LDS-owned KSL could see that free speech was at issue here and said so. This is just an important fact.

 * Noting the ownership of KSL *and* correcting the usage of an incorrect term in reference to the LDS Church have both been justified, and no amount of clouding the issue with multiple socks, proxies, or references to professional wrestling will change that. This "revert war" only exists because a noted and documented troublemaker with numerous sockpuppets has chosen to devote his life to taking issue with every contribution I make here. Chadbryant 07:28, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * (sigh) Once again you are about as unbiased as Jesse Jackson in a New Orleans neighborhood. Reverting the article to remove the reference to the LDS does not mean that the article then u ses "incorrect terminology," nor does it mean that it casts it in a "negative light."  Unless you can tell me how the ABSENCE of a reference within the article makes it a "negative light?"  How could NOT mentioning the LDS Church make it a negative light?  See, this is what this whole thing is about in the first place -- your pro-Mormon biasedness not allowing you to contribute to the article in a neutral fashion.

 * There are no multiple socks or proxies. Even if there WERE, you would have no way of knowing, since you can't see IP numbers or host sites.  This is the same problem that Wikipedia has had with your behavior of labelling user accounts as "DinkSocks" simply because you don't like the way that person posted or behaved.  As usual, your paranoia (and possible  schizophrenia) are shining through in an obvious light through the Wiki window pane, which is keeping you from stating your case without coming across as some sort of idiot with a vendetta or a petty jerk who reverts articles just because he doesn't like the original poster. -- RSPW Poster 17:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Well the correct move would have been to report what is in your eyes as vandalism to an admin and ask for either some protection or a tempban on the user who you claim is commiting the vandalism. Instead you have reverted the article 23 times in the last 4 days. Even if this doesn't violate the 3RR rule, it is still not good wikietiquite. A 08:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Chadbryant knows NOTHING of good "wikietiquite." He will edit user pages on a whim, claiming them as sockpuppets with no justification or reason whatsoever.  He'll just jump onto the user page, drop in the template, and WHAM! that's it. Nothing on the talk pages, nothing on admin pages.  He's repeatedly reverted articles based on the flimsiest claims of "vandalism," seeing it where there is none and making it up on others.  You have about as much of a chance of getting him to behave as you do filling the Grand Canyon with oatmeal. -- RSPW Poster 17:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

WP:LAME
I have protected this page (hopefully on The wrong version) with a reference to WP:LAME in the protection message. You people are acting in a manner difficult to distinguish from idiots. Please stop doing so - David Gerard 08:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

 * And 3RR each - David Gerard 08:50, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Survey for what version of the paragraph to include
'''72 hours is over. Voting is now closed. Please see below.'''

Alright now that the article is locked and hopefully those involved will cool down, we can get back to some constructive debate on the topic. There are three options as I see it, however please add another if you feel it is appropriate. Add a vote for the option you think should be on the page and after a few days we can hopefully put this dead, bloody, and beaten horse to pasture. I am going to attempt to invite all those who have edited this article in the past as well as other Utah wikipedias via talk pages, however everyone should be allowed to vote.

(let me butt in here with a note on the Options 1,2 &4 - we now seem to have arrived at the understanding that the following is not correct: "KTVX was the only local television station that did not air...(the ad)" as it is being reported that there are 11 stations in the market -four were approached and one refused- so in all eight stations did not air the ad. We could say KTVX was the only station that "refused" to air the ad but I am not quite bold enough to edit Options which people have already voted on) RomaC 05:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

 * While you provide some good points, I would like to stick to the 72 hours of waiting and discussion before removing or editing any of the versions people have put forth. The problem there is that I will not be here, I am going to be a few hundred miles away at a conference. However, now that there are more then three people involved, I have faith that this will work out. I would ask that one of the long time Utah Wikipedians such as JonMoore take over facilitating this discussion. I'll put a request on his talk page in hopes that he will do this. If he is unable/unwilling to, are there any other offers of someone to help out with this? A 07:45, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I could give it a try. I've never really moderated something like this before, but sure, why not? I am an admin myself, so I suppose we are supposed to work with things like this, although I tend to be a content generator, as opposed to a "beaurocrat". When is the end of the 72 hour phase? Jon 01:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I posted the survey at 08:54, 7 December 2005 UTC. If you do not stay up all night like I usualy do, feel free to end it when you feel appropriate. Thanks for helping out with this. A 02:21, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Option #1 - Pre edit war Version:

During George W. Bush's visit to Salt Lake City to speak to the Veterans of Foreign Wars on August 22, 2005, KTVX was the only local television station that did not air the paid political message of Cindy Sheehan against the war in Iraq[1]. The station's owners Clear Channel Communications claimed that the ad would offend its viewers. However, rival KSL-TV, which is owned by the Mormon Church, did not hesitate to air the ad.

Votes:
 * RomaC 17:02, 7 December 2005 (UTC) Close, but I would say "refused to air" rather than "did not air" and add a quick reference to the other two stations that also ran the ad, that way readers can better understand how KTVX stands in relation to its competitors. Because the owners of KTVX are naturally provided in the article, so should the owners of the other three stations be identified, as this provides some insight into the backgrounds and policies that informed their decisions on whether or not to run the ad.

I personally see Option #1 as the best option of all of the above. To be totally accurate the LDS church has not endorsed President Bush or the War in Iraq, however it seems that the vast majority of LDS Church members in Utah support President Bush and the Iraq War. It might be a good idea to point out Clear Channel's contributions to the Bush camp in 2000 and 2004. It might show a reason besides offending viewers why KTVX refused to air the commercial Hypernick1980 08:49, 8 December 2005 (UTC)]]

Option #2 - Pre edit war Version minus reference to KSL & LDS Church:

During George W. Bush's visit to Salt Lake City to speak to the Veterans of Foreign Wars on August 22, 2005, KTVX was the only local television station that did not air the paid political message of Cindy Sheehan against the war in Iraq[1]. The station's owners Clear Channel Communications claimed that the ad would offend its viewers.

Votes:

 * --Boothy443 | trácht ar 09:19, 7 December 2005 (UTC), i do belive that the paragraph is needed, as the isuue was raised espically considering that Utah and Salt Lake is generaly considered as a conserative/pro-bush region, but as KLS-TV was not the only station to run the ad, i fail to see the reason to point them out as opposed to the other stations which also ran the ad regardless of what the ownership of the station is, unless their is some sepecif reson that ownership gave to running the ad, and even then that would be better situated in the KSL-TV artile as opposed to this article.
 * For reasons listed in other parts of this novel of a page, I vote for this option. A 08:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The reference to the LDS Church-owned station is an attempt to make KTVX's decision appear extreme. POV. Dedhed 10:13, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * -Hinto 16:28, 7 December 2005 (UTC) : as per Boothy443.
 * I think this is the best option. Why would you want to mention who the owners are?  The newsworthy fact is the decision of the station, not who actually made the decision itself.  Are you going to have to put up the name of the news director for that particular evening?  Why not the name of the pastor of the local church in the town while you're at it?  I simply don't see a reason for leaving the LDS reference in other than to try to make it look like "Ha, HA!  The Mormons are better than those other guys 'cuz they were free thinkers enough to run the ad!  The rest of those jerks SUCK!  Look how foolish and stupid and backwards ignorant they seem to appear because they didn't run the ad!  But OUR guys did!  So fuck you, America!  We RULE!"  ...there's just no reason to have that.  Leave the fact in that the station ran it, but keep the LDS reference out.  Besides, the station has an internal link within Wikipedia, and if you peruse the entry there, it mentions the Mormon Church.  So all it takes is a single click for people to figure that out. -- RSPW Poster 17:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I do believe that even mentioning KSL's (and thus Bonneville International and the LDS Church) desicion in this matter is only provided to push POV. In order to balance it, it would be required to mention ever major local station's decision in the matter and their reasons for their actions for an un-biased view on the situation (however, all that information wouldn't be relevant on KUTV's page, thus I vote for option 2). Nothing about KUTV's desicion had anything to do with KSL's decision based on factual information. Tierra 00:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Option #3 - Remove paragraph

 * Remove it. All it does is create a pro-Mormon slant and cause huge amounts of trouble and edit wars.  It should be left out of the article and never spoken of again, much like the second Darren on Bewitched. Pickles The Cat 22:36, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Option #4 - Reworded paragraph

During the visit by US President George W. Bush to Salt Lake City to speak to the Veterans of Foreign Wars in August 2005, Cindy Sheehan ran a paid political message protesting against the war in Iraq. The advertisement was screened on all of the local television stations, including the LDS Church owned station KSL-TV. However, the owner's of KTVX, Clear Channel Communications, requested that the ad not be screened on KTVX as it may appear offensive to the local viewers.

Votes:
 * MyNameIsNotBob 09:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC) I added this option as the other versions lack readability and I believe the LDS reference is important as it adds context to the issue.
 * Thanks for adding another option and voting. A 09:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Option #5 - Pre edit war Version with two small revisions:

During George W. Bush's visit to Salt Lake City to speak to the Veterans of Foreign Wars on August 22, 2005, KTVX was the only local television station that did not refused to air the paid political message of Cindy Sheehan against the war in Iraq[1]. The station's owners Clear Channel Communications claimed that the ad would offend its viewers. However, rival KSL-TV, which is owned by the Mormon Church locally owned, did not hesitate to air the ad.

Votes:
 * Here's my reason behind the two revisions. The first revision is due to the fact that the source article only indicates that Sheehan tried to buy ad time on the big four stations, not every single commercial station in Salt Lake City.  The second is that the comparison with KSL-TV is relevant because it is locally owned, so while the big media conglomerate thought it was not appropriate for the local market, the local owner did, and to make that point it doesn't matter who the local owner is. The other two stations that aired the ad are owned by their network. 16:29, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * --Evice 16:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Shifting my vote to this significantly better option. We need instant runoff capability -- If this loses, I want to shift my vote to option 2. Mezle 16:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Mezle, I would have no problem with this. I think that we should let this survey run as is for atleast 72 hours as a sort of cooling off period; and to make sure everyone who wishes to, gets a chance to vote.

Option #6: Yet another rewording...

During the visit by US President George W. Bush to Salt Lake City to speak to the Veterans of Foreign Wars in August 2005, Cindy Sheehan ran was featured in a paid political message protesting against the war in Iraq. The advertisement was screened on all of the other local television stations, including KSL-TV, which is owned by Bonneville International, the for-profit arm of the LDS Church. However, the owner's of KTVX, Clear Channel Communications, requested that the ad not be screened on KTVX as it may appear offensive to the local viewers. KTVX managers said the content "could very well be offensive to our community in Utah, which has contributed more than its fair share of fighting soldiers and suffered significant loss of life in this Iraq war."

Votes:
 * I find none of the above suitable. Technically, KSL is owned by Bonneville International, which is a for-profit entity owned by the leadership of the LDS church, and not necessarily the Church directly, but for all intents and purposes might as well be owned by the Church. Jon 18:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * MyNameIsNotBob 20:09, 7 December 2005 (UTC) This option follows my idea, but is significantly better as Jon has put some research into it. Thanks Jon!
 * I find this version to be quite acceptable. Chadbryant 00:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * This is a good start, but...I marked "all of the" -> "other above because the USA Today article lists three networks that aired the ad, which does not include all Salt Lake City stations documented by Wikipedia. The notion that Clear Channel thought the ad would be offensive is contradicted by the USA Today article, in which local station managers deny that the corporate owner had anything to do with the decision.  I've added a direct quote from them instead.  The USA Today article also states that Sheehan appears in the ad, but that they were purchased by Gold Star Families for Peace, so I fixed that.  I don't know why people think the bit about the other station being owned by the CJCLDS is trying to make Mormons look good or bad or anything else.  To an outside observer like me, it's just a supporting detail to affirm that the rival station's sensibilities are aligned with the largely conservative, largely Mormon local population.  That is to say, it wasn't that KTVX is simply a conservative station and the others considerably more liberal. -- Beland 02:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Option #7: Yet another rewording...

During the visit by US President George W. Bush to Salt Lake City to speak to the Veterans of Foreign Wars in August 2005, Cindy Sheehan ran was featured in a paid political message protesting against the war in Iraq. The top four stations in the market (KSL, KSTU, KTVX and KUTV) were offered to be paid to air the ad, and KTVX declined the offer. The local station managers said the content "could very well be offensive to our community in Utah, which has contributed more than its fair share of fighting soldiers and suffered significant loss of life in this Iraq war."

Votes:
 * "All of the other stations" is overreaching because there are eleven broadcast stations in the SLC area. Since three are educational stations, that still leaves eight.  Apparently, only four were even approaced to air the advertisement.  List all four stations, with links, and let the reader make any decisions about the motives of the station management without leading them to any such conclusions. Val42 03:46, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

 * This is more accurate. As much as I'd like articles to link to things I've worked on (Bonneville International), option 6 obscures the fact that three other stations ran the ad. We could even add ownerships for the other stations, but the correct ownership for KSL is Bonneville. Forcing the LDS Church into the sentence seems like special pleading to advance a POV. On the other hand, if we could source a credible commentary that found KTVX's rejection of the ad especially notable in light of KSL's acceptance, then it could probably find a place in the article. Cool Hand  Luke  02:17, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Discussion
While I think the above discussion resulting from the survey is good - it is much to early to start voting on a version. To continue that discussion, imho, the key points of the controversy are:
 * 1) that KTVX refused to air the ad, creating significant local controversy that was also carried nationally (I read about it from an AP wire story);
 * 2) that KSL would air the ad is significant because it is normally the first station in the area to restrict things that could be considered offensive to the local community (for example, not airing Saturday Night live see KSL and NBC schedueles, and airing prime-time shows after 11 pm rather than the normal time slot);
 * 3) KSL ownership is significant since it adds context to why KSL is singled out from the other stations in the area electing to air the ad.

KTVX's decsion, at least locally, would have been less controversial if KSL had also refused the ad - KTVX wouldn't have been the only station to do so for example. Especially since KSL is the station most often associated, in Utah, with being extremely sensitive to the community and making difficult decisions to not air specific material. That KSL would air the ad is a significant indicator and makes KTVX's action stand out.

That some are reading the connection between KSL and the LDS church as some attempt to positive spin is interesting since those are just the facts, now the wording is key here because some wording could imply a POV. Remember that implications (even ones we think are obvious and must be the only reason a person wants a specific fact included) are up to the reader to decide. We need to decide if the fact is notable and then present it in an NPOV manner. I think KSL's relationship with a large organization that may have an agenda is notable and failure to disclose that relationship would be inappropriate.

Finally some comments on wording. That's it for now :) Trödel| talk 15:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Bonneville is not the for-profit arm of the church. The church owns several for-profit organizations and they are not all under the Bonneville umbrella.
 * 2) I think the quote from the station should be included - why in their own words they choose not to air the ad.
 * 3) The refence to KSL's owner should be a short as possible.

 * You are right. I should have worded it "a for profit arm..." Possibly it could simply say its owned by Bonneville. If the reader wnts to know about Bonneville's ownership, they could simply click on that article, or KSL's for that matter. Jon 23:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Total votes

 * Option #1: 2 votes
 * Option #2: 6 votes
 * Option #3: 1 vote
 * Option #4: 0 votes
 * Option #5: 3 votes
 * Option #6: 4 votes
 * Option #7: 2 votes

Jon 04:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Really, this shouldn't be considered anything more than a staw poll. In fact, it shouldn't be a poll at all, just a tool for reaching a compromise that can have consensus. As the raw totals show, there's nothing near consensus around any single option. That said, can we agree that we ought to leave the other station's ownership out of the article unless a significant source can be cited that finds that ownership illuminating or relevent to KTVX's decision not to run the ad? Cool Hand  Luke  05:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

"Mormons"
It seems that the revert war was largely about the term "Mormon."

If, pending above discussion, the LDS Church is mentioned in the article, I think we should follow the LDS styleguide which suggests something like "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("LDS Church"; see also Mormon)." This is more appropriate. "Mormons" is an imprecise term for Latter-day Saints or the LDS Church. Cool Hand  Luke  02:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Unprotected
Ten days is long enough protection for a lame edit war. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

 * You would think so, wouldn't you. Looks like some editor from a Utah Comcast IP has taken back up the old mantle of discussionless paragraph removal. GAH!! What is so motivating about this one article that has driven people to lame edit/revert war the holy hell out of it? Getting the article locked and having an informal poll didn't work, does anyone have any other ideas? A 03:31, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I just made the change to the paragraph that received the most votes in the poll. I think that my wording was better (can we have another poll?), but I thought it better to use the one that received the most votes.  I added in the appropriate links.  Val42 04:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Polls are a bad idea, really, so don't hold another one. If you have substantial agreement on the right version (and honestly does it make that much difference?) then that should be enough for reasonable people to live with. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 13:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

KTVX vs. KTVX-TV
User Davodd has renamed this article from KTVX to KTVX-TV. I am not sure of his/her motivation, but I would like to point out that the license for this station is for the call letters KTVX, not for the call letters KTVX-TV, which would be a totaly different call sign. In some cases the FCC does append a -TV or -FM to a tv station, but in this case they did not. Is anyone opposed to moving the article back to KTVX? A 03:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Technically, each broadcast license appends two letters to indicate the band and/or modulation method. KTVX-TV is the analog signal broadcast on Channel 4.  KTVX-DT is the digital signal broadcast on a UHF frequency.  KSL has even more: KSL-TV is analog on Channel 5, KSL-DT is digital on Channel 44 (I think), KSL-AM on 1160 AM and KSL-FM on 102.6 FM.  To further complicate things, KBYU-TV and KBYU-DT use alternate audio channels on their signals to broadcast KBYU-FM (radio).  But the FCC doesn't require that they use the extension, presumably because if you can receive the signal you already know how they're sending it.

 * But to answer your second question, Yes, this article should be moved back to KTVX because that is what people will be typing in. And because we wouldn't want to have to also create an article called KTVX-DT that would duplicate much of the same information or just be a redirect. Val42 04:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

 * As a former technical director/engineer for a radio station that has an -FM callsign (KWCR-FM) this is a subject I've done some research on. While I cannot find any official word on the matter, as I understand it, the first license to get a set of call letters gets just the call letters. All following licenses with the same call letters get an appendix, be it -DT, -TV, -LPFM, -AM or what have you. But that argument aside, you are right, it does get harry when you consider the world of digital tv. Are we going to start having a separate article of a sub station (i.e. 4.2) when they broadcast something different then the main channel? For example KYTX-DT subchannel 19.2 will start carrying UPN programming soon. In summation, I am a strong supporter of moving all of the SLC market TV channels back to the title they previously had. I am still waiting for the person who made the changes to provide reasoning for the change, and will give him/her a few more days to make a case before making the change. A 06:30, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

It looks like there has been some talk about this here and Naming_conventions. I'm not sure what started Davodd on his spree of renames, but I don't see mention of any such wikipedia wide change. The line that I'd like to draw attention to from the second link is "Radio and television stations in North America should always be titled with their C---, W---, K--- or X call sign, with the suffix -TV, -FM or (AM) when necessary." (emphasis added). I would say that it is not needed on most of the TV stations in the SLC market, as few have the -TV designation listed as their callsign. I can see the argument to make all tv station pages have a uniform naming convention, but if this is the case, then it should be listed as such on the naming conventions page. A 07:19, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Hello. Regardless of its original licensing status, upon change of ownership the the TV station, its official legal designation has consistently been "KTVX-TV" (this is how it's referred to by its owner, Clear Channel, and the U.S. Government . I moved the page for accuracy and as an effort to make Wikipedia more consistent in naming for readers unfamiliar with particular DMAs. As for the -DT and sub channels, the naming policy is already addresses that: "Where a single broadcast outlet operates several transmitters with different call signs, create the article at the call sign which is considered the primary transmitter by the FCC ..., and make the other call signs redirects to that call sign." So the -DT or ##.1 and ##.2 should all be redirects (if needed) to the main KTVX-TV article for now. Davodd 11:36, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I will concede on KTVX -> KTVX-TV. However, what about KPNZ where I can find no reference on the FCC website to the term 'KPNZ-TV' but I can find many with the search term 'KPNZ'? While it may be nice to have a uniform listing of tv stations, is it worth it when an article title does not represent the actualy call letters of the station? I am sure that this is the case quite often across the nation. A 20:32, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Currently, KTVX-TV and KTVX-DT (two different licences) are broadcasting the same content. Therefore there should be one article.  With digital television, there is one primary transmitter and the subchannels are data streams within the overall data signal.  Currently, there are local stations in the SLC broadcast area that are not using all of the bandwidth available so US-DTV is aggregating the unused bandwidth from several stations to create a "virtual cable" company.  This content is partially carried on KTVX-DT, but it is not KTVX content.  What about when KTVX starts broadcasting multiple video content signals on their "subchannels" (another data stream on the same transmitter)?  How would you cover this in the KTVX-TV article?  Both of these are clearly not applicable to the KTVX-TV article, so you should immediately create a KTVX-DT article with this (stub) content.  Except, it would immediately be recognized that this content should be merged with the KTVX-TV article, and the resultant article be renamed KTVX.  Why don't we just skip the intermediate step and rename the article to KTVX now? Val42 19:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Val42, you raise excellent points, I agree with you. However, I also think keeping the TV station pages named consistently across all of wikipedia. I think that the appropriate place to have this discussion would be the Television portal or on the style guide page. However, I would not oppose you renaming the KTVX page while such a discussion was taking place. On a similar topic, don't get my started on USDTV and how KUED and KUEN are selling this bandwidth to them.  A 00:58, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually, for all transitional digital TV stations in the U.S., there is only one license, and hence only one callsign. The FCC does not assign separate callsigns to transitional digital TV stations (since they cannot be sold), nor does it assign "-DT" callsigns at all.  (See .) Furthermore, the suffix is considered part of the callsign .  The position that I and a number of other Wikipedians have always taken is that the article title should reflect the official callsign of the station, no exceptions.  Where disambiguation is required (which can only occur when a callsign conflicts with another three- or four-letter code or acronym), in both Wikipedia and in those industry where accurate representation of callsigns matters, the standard disambiguation practice is to append a space and the type of service in parentheses.  In this particular case, the callsign of the station, according to the FCC's records (the one and only authoritative source) is "KTVX".  It is not "KTVX-TV".  Therefore, this article should be named either "KTVX" or "KTVX (TV)". 121a0012 05:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I searched for the television portal, but didn't find it. I checked out the two articles above. The "standard" doesn't seem to be as straight-forward as I would have hoped. I referred the discussion of the naming of television stations to here, unless they have another place. Val42 01:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * You may want to contact Davodd. Perhaps he can point us in the direction of where we could talk to those that made the choice to change all of the pages to -TV. A 02:01, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Interesting tidbit I found linked off of 121a0012's talk page: WikiProject_Radio_Stations. So is a mention in a pdf on the fcc site a good enough argument in support of keeping the page at -TV, or should we move it back? A 09:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

User Davodd has just responded to a request I made asking for him to step back in and provide some insight. He has decilned with a reason listed on my talk page for anyone who cares. As he is the only one who was for the pages to be -TV, I will go ahead and move all of the stations that do not have -TV in their callsign tonight. A 09:42, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The page was moved to KTVX-TV again, I have left the following message on User CFIF's talk page:

As we have talked about on the talk page for KTVX, the page should have been kept at KTVX and not moved to KTVX-TV. The FCC call letters for this station are KTVX. I refer you to Naming_conventions. Please make note of the phrase "... should always be titled with the official call sign as assigned by that country's regulatory authority." (bold text mine). If you have anything to add to the conversation please bring it up on the talk page of KTVX, we already have a section that talks about the page name. A 02:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Clear Channel Wikipedia Editors
Does anyone else find it awesome in an ironic kinda way that someone from ip 207.230.140.240, an ip assigned to Clear Channel, is the one now(?) reverting the paragraph? Anyone know a netadmin at ClearChannel that would let slip the identity of the person, or at least station, that this ip is used at? A 01:04, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Another anonymous editor, this time from a Comcast Cable address, just deleted the controversial section again. I've restored the deleted paragraph.  Wasn't the new "partial protection" policy supposed to be possible after this past weekend?  Val42 03:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I've gotten the IP 207.230.140.240 added to the blacklist on the bots in #wikipedia-en-vandalism on freenode. Whenever someone from that ip makes a change the bots will flag it in the channel. There is no garuntee that this will get the paragraph reverted quicker, more often, but it should make them a bit higher profile. The IP has been blocked again for another 24 hours (Special:Ipblocklist). I doubt this will make any difference, it didn't last time, it is nice to get a daylong break from watching the page. A 23:12, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Hear Hear! In your experience, how long do these sort of lame edit wars usually continue and what is the usual result? Thx RomaC 23:27, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Not sure, but this user has over 250 edits going back a year. If they are not some sort of CC paid wikipedia editor, I'm sure someone there would like to know how much time this person spends on wikipedia. A 07:27, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

In other news, I'm considering either emailing the technical contact listed on the arin entry for the ip block, or perhaps even calling them after the holidays. I'm sure that CC doesn't want it publicaly known that they, or an employee of their's, is trying to "clean up" the image of a CC station. Also, if you look at the number of different CC stations and other related articles they have edited, and the number of names this person has added, you will be amazed. The CC employee wouldn't know that Ron De Castro is the General Sales Manager of WWPR-FM. Either this is someone who has moved arround the corporation alot, or someone who works in some sort of corp. office job. A 07:27, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks again, very interesting please keep us posted! RomaC 16:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

ABC4 News Close to Home Anchors

 * Ruth Todd - 10pm (Sunday - Friday)
 * Terry Wood - 10pm (Sunday - Friday)
 * Randall Carlisle - 5pm and 5:30pm
 * Barbara Smith - 5pm and 5:30pm (health reporter)
 * Erika Edberg - 5:30am, 6am and 6:30am (also reporter)
 * Kerry Kinsey - Weekends (also reporter)

ABC 4Warn Weather from the Weather Porch

 * Clayton Brough, Climatologist - Currently a substitute for the Weekdays (ABC4's longest personality -- 26 years @ KTVX)
 * Marti Skold - Weekday Mornings at 5:30am, 6am and 6:30am ('Good Things Utah' host)

Hot Ticket Sports

 * Wesley Ruff - Sports Director (5:30pm and 10pm)
 * Dana Greene - Tuesdays and Wednesdays (5:30pm and 10pm)
 * Kent Rupe - Saturday Afternoons, Fill-In anchor, Hot Ticket Sports Saturday & Sunday

Traffic

 * Mike McKay - Good Morning Utah (5:30am, 6am and 6:30am)

Anchors & Reporters

 * Ross Becker (anchor / staff general assignment)
 * Buddy Blankenfeld (staff general assignment)
 * James Brown (staff general assignment / 'Good Things Utah' contributor)
 * Christiana Brady (staff general assignment)
 * Reed Cowan (staff general assignment / anchor)
 * Annie Cutler (staff general assignment)
 * Nicea DeGering ('Good Things Utah' host / staff general assignment / anchor)
 * Brent Hunsaker (anchor / staff general assignment)
 * Chris Jones (staff general assignment)
 * Angie Larsen ('Good Things Utah' host / staff general assignment)
 * Reagan Leadbetter ('Good Things Utah' host / staff general assignment / anchor)
 * Marcos Ortiz (staff general assignment)
 * Chris Vanocur (political reporter / 'On The Record' host)
 * Robert Walz (staff general assignment)
 * Larry Warren (staff general assignment)
 * Susan Wood (anchor / staff general assignment)

Past Personalities

 * Dan Pope, Chief Meteorologist (currently the Weekend Meteorologist for KSL-TV)
 * Kimberly Perkins, Evening Anchor (retired in December 2000)
 * Carl Arky, sports anchor (retired from television sports?)
 * Phil Riesen, Evening Anchor (later moved to KUTV; currently Utah State Congressman)
 * Doug Jardine, Morning Anchor (joined KTVX from KUTV; currently works with Kimberly Perkins on Profiles for Caring)
 * Cristina Flores, Reporter (currently works for KUTV)
 * Kim Johnson, Anchor/Reporter (later moved to KSL)
 * Lisa Conley, Anchor/Reporter (came to ABC4 from KSL5)
 * Debbie Dujanovic, Reporter (currently works for KSL-TV)
 * John Daly, Reporter (currently works for KSL)
 * Kent Norton, Weather reporter (currently semi-retired; moved to KSL TV)
 * Bob Welti, Meteorologist (moved to KSL in 1965)
 * Paul James, Sports Anchor (moved to KSL in 1965)
 * Ed Yeates, Reporter (currently works for KSL Television)
 * Elizabeth Hur, Reporter
 * Angela Watson, Reporter
 * Beth Hillyard, Reporter
 * Scott McKane, Reporter (currently works for KSTU Fox 13)
 * Christine Hill, Reporter
 * Mary Sawyer, Reporter
 * Scott Swan, Anchor/Reporter (currently works for WTHR in Indianapolis)
 * Amy Troy, Anchor/Reporter (currently works for KGW in Oregon)
 * David Northfield, Anchor/Reporter (currently works for KGW in Oregon)
 * Paul Murphy, Reporter
 * Wes Hohenstein, weekday morning meteorologist (currently works for ?)
 * Jeff James, weekday morning meteorologist (currently works for KOVR in Sacramento)
 * Michael Rawson, Southern Utah Bureau reporter (came to ABC4 from KUTV2; retired?)
 * Heidi Hatch, Reporter/anchor (currently works for WOFL in Orlando, FL)

List as a "directory"
Thanks. Xiner (talk, email) 20:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * With due respect, this is not a directory. It doesn't list every employee, and it has useful information about where past personalities went. I think including every past and present reporter is excessive (and probably not verifiable), but surely the headlining staff merits note. At least as much as the cast of any movie. Cool Hand Luke 01:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I must disagree. However, I'm new to the broadcast articles, so I'll defer to your judgment and restore the section for now. I will investigate the issue. Stay tuned. Xiner (talk, email) 01:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I must admit that I don't know what the formal policy is either, but the practice seems incredibly common. When one can quickly pull up a half dozen articles with similar (or worse) lists to the one I've reinserted, I'm loath to go on a rampage removing them. This is particularly the case because Ruth Todd is apparently worth her own article. As a former Salt Laker, I don't see what makes her peculiarly notable among area broadcasters, but I certainly think she and other anchoring cast are worth a quick mention here. Cool Hand Luke 01:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know, someone might list that page for deletion. :) Seriously, though, I've checked out a few other TV station articles, and you're right, it's way too widespread for anyone to delete anything without a ruling from higher-up. I still think it's unencyclopedic, but if others live, so should these. Cheers. Xiner (talk, email) 01:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, of course. Good idea. Xiner (talk, email) 15:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge notice
It's not standard practice on Wikipedia for a television station's list of transmitters to be a separate article from the one on the television station itself. Is there a specific reason it should be allowed to stand in this case? Bearcat 10:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, but if anyone who objects, please do comment. Xiner (talk, email) 01:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Edit I'm changing my vote to Oppose for this merge proposal per reasons stated below and in the deletion nomination. Xiner (talk, email) 02:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Concur. It seems non-notable other than it is a long list. Ronbo76 20:59, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The next question would be, what, if anything should we keep from the list? WP:NOT a directory, but do other stations keep such lists? If not, we can just delete that page. If yes, then I'd like to see how other pages consolidate such info. Xiner (talk, email) 21:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree. I think the material shouldn't be merged here either. It doesn't fall neatly into any of the speedy categories (except maybe failure to assert notability), so it might be most legitimate to nominate it for AfD. Would set a clear precedent if any other such pages pop up. Cool Hand Luke 21:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * This station is probably the atypical because they seem to cover a wide swatch of their state. KPIX-TV is similar in broadcast area because it serves the Bay Area but even they do not list their towers. KTLA, from my dim San Diego days, used to mention its tower system (on the air at sign off) which is famous in the Southern California region as it is some on mountain (Mount Palomar or Mount Wilson (California) ?) and which is also somewhat famous. Under their KTLA See Also there is a link to their tower that redirects to List of masts which is also being considered for a merge. Merge seems the best option either to the station's Wiki article (where it will be preserved); or, to the List of masts where it will likely be whittled down to two or three and then merged into another article. Ronbo76 21:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * BTW, List of masts looks like a list of the tallest/most notable. Ronbo76 21:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It'd take someone knowledgeable to figure out which one of these should be merged into that article? Xiner (talk, email) 21:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I have to confess my ignorance of broadcast, but don't all of the Utah stations do this? When I've vacationed in St. George (303 miles away), the big three networks from Salt Lake were on the air, compared with only one, as I recall, from Las Vegas (158 mi. from St. George). Salt Lake radio was also very prominent even though it had less of a stranglehold on the local spectrum. I think that's just a historical reality for Utah stations in general, so KTVX is not particularly notable in this regard. Cool Hand Luke 21:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Blam - Cool Hand Luke just shot me. I just realized the same thing. When I was in the state on vacations or business, you can pick up the larger Salt Lake City stations for your reason. NN, boys. Nice shooting, Tex. Ronbo76 21:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Alright, I've listed the page up for deletion instead. If anyone doesn't want that to happen, it's time to speak up. Xiner (talk, email) 22:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * To be fair, I will wait two days before I vote. I honestly don't know which way I would go on the issue and want to have a cool down period while I mull it over. Ronbo76 22:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * In the deletion debate for the list of translators, I suggested mentioning them here, as they already are, and providing a link so anyone really interested in translators could look them up in the FCC database which is the source for all the information. But the links to the FCC database are searches by the individual call lettes of each translator, without the station listed anywhere, which I find puzzling. Does whoever created the list of translators have a way of linking to them all from here without listing 100 sets of call letters? Edison 22:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * It's always valid for a television station's article to include a list of all the communities to which it broadcasts through repeater transmitters; it is legitimately encyclopedic information about the station. The purpose of forking it off to a separate article is what I'm questioning. I do still favour the merge rather than outright deletion. Bearcat 22:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * How do you define community? How small a region should we drill down to? What if I in NYC can receive a station in NJ, but the city isn't one of their target audiences? Don't at least some of the translators broadcast to communities beyond their own, so that we can't tell what community in Utah is covered by it and which aren't? If we read about a station in a paper encyclopedia (which I know we're not), should we expect to see the callsign of every translator, even if cost isn't an issue? Isn't it considered a product/service, and be subject to guidelines for such? It certainly doesn't affect the station materially if one of 100 translators goes out of business, or does it? I'm new to TV station articles, so these are the questions I'm asking. If they are answered satifactorily, I'm open to changing my mind. Xiner (talk, email) 00:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Community, in this context, would refer to locations that have translators, not necessarily to all communities within the broadcast range of a single transmitter. (For instance, CFTO-TV lists Toronto, Orillia and Peterborough, because those are the cities where the station has transmitters. It doesn't list places like Mississauga, Brampton or Lakefield, which are merely within the broadcast range of the three transmitters noted above.) Regarding the corporate notability guidelines, I genuinely don't see what your point is in that — the topic of KTVX as a whole is what is subject to those guidelines. If it's part of KTVX's article, then the list of translators does not have to separately meet those guidelines independently of KTVX itself; it only has to meet those guidelines by itself if it's kept as a separate article. Bearcat 02:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Does CVS list every city in which it operates? We shouldn't list every broadcaster on the station, nor every one of over 100 translators. That's why we don't allow trivia in Wikipedia articles. The list of translators, while impressive, is still just that. At least I haven't seen anything to the contrary. Xiner (talk, email) 03:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Another question I forgot to ask is, where did this information come from? If it's not published anywhere, then it'd be original research. But if there's a webpage with the same info, then we can link to that, and it'd be more authoritative. Xiner (talk, email) 04:13, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

 * On the other hand, if there is a way to have the FCC generate this list, we should just link to that. No sense replicating what the FCC keeps up-to-date.  The list must of come from somewhere, the formating of the cities suggest it's some kind of data dump or another.
 * It might be interesting to list the station's most far-flung translaters in each of the cardinal directions (if any source mentions these, so it's not original research). For example, I'm amazed they broadcast in Elko, Nevada, which is actually closer to Reno than Salt Lake and in a different state. Incidentally, there are six other similar articles, all made by User:Dhett. Leaving a question on his talk page. Cool Hand Luke 09:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

 * You're probably right. I can only find searching for all translators in Utah, though, which is not very helpful. Since even KTVX's website doesn't seem to have this list, I'm pretty certain now that the info is probably original research and in any case not notable enough. I'm voting Delete but will still keep an open mind. Xiner (talk, email) 03:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

 * It seems like the deletion discussion has continued on the . I assume the closing admin will also check this page, but to be sure your vote's counted, please vote on that AfD directly. Thanks. Xiner (talk, email) 04:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd recommend all discussion now take place on the AfD. If there is a choice comment, maybe (just maybe) a sub-header could be inserted that could link there. I am not the wise man to do that. Ronbo76 04:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Sorry for being so late to this discussion, and thank you to Cool Hand Luke for notifying me. The article had seemed stable, so I just recently removed it from my watchlist. It is customary to include a television station's translators in its article, but KTVX, as well as many of the other Salt Lake City market stations, has over 100 translators, whereas almost all of the television stations in other markets have 25 or fewer translators. You will also see that for Salt Lake City stations that have a small number of translators, such as KUPX or KPNZ, the translator list is included in the main article. The number of translators present in KTVX and similar articles makes the list too bulky and cumbersome for inclusion in the main article, so upon the advice of fellow members of WikiProject Television Stations, I set up these subarticles for these stations only. I do not support merging the list back into the article due to the size of the list, but welcome other suggestions to improve the presentation of these translators. As to the source of the translator stations, it is from the most recent KTVX FCC application for license renewal, but is in a format not readily accessible and does not include links to the actual stations' FCC license information as the Wikipedia subarticle does. dhett (talk • contribs) 05:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, I will not have access to an Internet connection for the next couple of days and so, will not be available to respond to questions, so I request a couple of additional days so that I can answer questions before any action is taken in this matter. Thank you. dhett (talk • contribs) 06:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I have created a KTVX proof of concept article in my user space, putting into effect a suggestion by User:Xiner. This should allow all translators to be listed in the main article without making it unreadable or too large for dial-up connections. It should also be an effective compromise that will resolve both this merge recommendation and the AfD nomination. Please review and comment below - your feedback is greatly appreciated. dhett (talk • contribs) 07:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

 * That looks much nicer. Good work! Would I be too greedy if I were to suggest this format instead? Alton, UT The callsign and channel info are readily available on the first page of that link. Xiner (talk, email) 15:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

 * No more comments are being posted other than the one here and the ones on the AfD, which is now closed, but since all have been positive, I will go ahead and replace the KTVX article, probably this weekend, and begin working on the others: KUTV, KSL-TV , KUED , KUEN , KBYU-TV , KSTU , KJZZ-TV and KUCW . dhett (talk • contribs) 19:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Ok, I merged the pages and did KUTV. I calso call dibs on the PBS stations. Cool Hand Luke 00:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

 * That's KUED, KUEN, and KBYU-TV, for those of you living in Rio Linda, California. :D dhett (talk • contribs) 02:19, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Wow, you've done all of these really fast. Very good job. I won't be able to get to them until tomorrow, so anyone should feel free to work on them before then. Cool Hand Luke 01:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * KUEN and KBYU-TV are done. dhett (talk • contribs) 06:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * And now so is KUED. All translator lists are now merged back into their main articles with condensed lists. dhett (talk • contribs) 07:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I've been deleting the self references. Hope you don't mind. Again, nice work. Xiner (talk, email) 00:39, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

And so concludes this merge discussion. Thank you, dhett. Xiner (talk, email) 14:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Awkward sentence
I could probably refine the first couple of sentences in the History section if someone could say exactly what the corporate structure was. Xiner (talk, email) 02:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

KTVX in Hitchcock's Psycho
I can't add this into the article due to WP:OR concerns, but I just happened to see the movie Psycho tonight on a beautiful 35mm print. In the movie, after Norman Bates is caught, theres a shot of a TV news van pulling up to the motel. The van is boldly emblazoned with "KTVX." It seems that the letters then belonged to a station in Muskogee, OK. There is some chatter about this on web forums, but nothing that qualifies as a reliable source. I searched some news databases with recent coverage, but it doesn't seem that any press has mentioned it since the mid-1990's at least. Just some mildly interesting trivia, I think. Cool Hand Luke 06:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not original research (WP:OR). It may be...trivia, but I'm not gonna delete it from the article. Check out the Stuyvesant_High_School. Xiner (talk, email) 14:11, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Experimental dates in infobox
Most of the TV articles have experimental dates in parentheses ... figured it was a common convention, so I put it back in. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blueboy96 (talk • contribs) 20:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

External links modified
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title: Talk:KTVX


text:
93 'til Infinity

93 'til Infinity is the debut studio album by American hip-hop group Souls of Mischief. It was released on September 28, 1993,  on the Jive label.

Composition
The sound of 93 'til Infinity is characteristic of the distinct style explored by the collective, including a rhyme scheme based on internal rhyme and beats centered around a live bass and obscure jazz and funk samples. According to AllMusic author Steve Huey, "Although the title cut is an underappreciated classic, 93 'til Infinity makes its greatest impression through its stunning consistency, not individual highlights."

Release
93 'til Infinity met commercial success with its title track and lead single, which reached No. 72 on the Billboard Hot 100. It also featured singles "That's When Ya Lost" and "Never No More" which reached the Hot Rap Singles but never charted on the Billboard Hot 100.

Reception
93 'til Infinity was critically acclaimed for its subject matter, production, and rapping, though it was not as popular as other West Coast hip hop albums at the time of its release. The St. Petersburg Times noted that "the new school diversity and relaxed swagger is highlighted by the Souls' raw and effortless verbal flow." The Washington Post praised "the distant trumpet shouts and fuzzy drum brushes in 'Never No More' and the combination of record-scratches and Ramsey Lewis keyboard samples on 'Make Your Mind Up'." Suzann Vogel of Philadelphia Weekly wrote:

At the pinnacle of the G-funked gangsta era, Souls of Mischief took the low road of emotional complexity. Hailing from Oakland, Calif., the foursome's distinctive lyrical mapping, infectious beats and subtle melodies on their debut rerouted gun-toting wannabes back to the underground and vaulted record-label Hieroglyphics to indie legend. MCs Tajai, Opio, Phesto and A-Plus exhibited a surprising charisma between them while undoing ghetto esteem. Their world of boredom, girls, weed, books, lounging and, of course, violence was a more easily understood reality for those caught between Pete Rock's tragedy, De La Soul's hippie aesthetics and Tupac's marginalizing glamour. Follow-up releases by Souls fell pathetically flat of achieving Til Infinitys harmony, and MCs have since broached personal topics of greater depth. Still, the genre-altering release possesses one undeniable truth: Reality's never sounded so good.

Steve Huey of AllMusic also positively reviewed 93 'til Infinity, calling it "the best single album to come out of Oakland's Hieroglyphics camp," as well as saying how Souls of Mischief "completely redefined the art of lyrical technique for the West Coast" and that it's "one of the most slept-on records of the '90s".

In 1998, the album was selected as one of The Source's 100 Best Rap Albums.

Legacy and influence
Over the years, the title track "93 'til Infinity" has been referenced and sampled by numerous artists, including Consequence and Kanye West in their 2004 song "03 'Til Infinity", J. Cole in 2009's "Til' Infinity", Freddie Gibbs in 2009's "How We Do", Big K.R.I.T in 2010's "Somedayz", and Joey Badass in 2013's "95 Til Infinity".

Credits
Souls of Mischief:
 * Opio - vocals
 * Tajai - vocals
 * Phesto - vocals
 * A-Plus – DJ, producer

Additional personnel:
 * Pep Love
 * Del the Funky Homosapien - producer
 * Casual – rap, vocals
 * Bill Ortiz – trumpet
 * Domino - producer
 * Jay Biz - producer
 * Kwam
 * Snupe – backing vocals

title: 93 'til Infinity


text:
User:Biologic

I'm nobody special.

title: User:Biologic


text:
User talk:Allofme

Welcome!

Hello, Allofme, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) will produce your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! Ann Heneghan (talk) 02:07, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * How to edit a page
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Terri Schiavo
Hello again. I suspect from your edit that you sympathize with the Schindlers. Since I do too, we won't fight about that. But the Wikipedia article isn't supposed to show what side a writer is on. Could I suggest that you read Neutral Point of View and the Neutral Point of View Tutorial. People on Wikipedia check recent changes very frequently, and remove any changes that don't conform to NPOV. Ann Heneghan (talk) 02:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Hello again, Allofme. Thanks for your message. One problem with NPOV is that people tend to think that they are neutral, and that it's the others who are biased. On the Terri Schiavo page there are editors who believe that Michael lied about her wishes so that he could inherit her money and marry his fiancee, and there are others who believe that he was fighting to carry out her wishes, and that he loved her to the end. With a good NPOV article we shouldn't know whether the writer personally sympathizes with the Schindlers or Michael Schiavo. I didn't like reverting your edit — partly because you were a new user, and it may seem like a slap in the face, and partly because your views seem to be ones that I would personally sympathize with. But if I hadn't reverted, you can be quite sure someone else would have! Anyway, do stay with us — you can't write an article that insinuates that Michael murdered his wife, but you can be around to give support to those who are protesting at parts of the article that seem almost to have been written by George Felos! And, in the meantime, what about doing a few short edits to non-controversial subjects, just while you're learning to feel your way around Wikipedia — blood pressure, Jane Austen, relative clause, or whatever interests you. Regards. Ann Heneghan (talk) 17:25, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Allofme


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Carecas do ABC

Carecas do ABC ("ABC region Skinheads" in Portuguese) is a Brazilian skinhead group based in the ABC region, in the metropolitan area of São Paulo. The ABC region includes the industrial cities of Santo André, São Bernardo do Campo and São Caetano do Sul. The group accepts Afro-Brazilian members. In their blog, they declare that they are not fascísts but nationalists and anti-communists. They do use the swastika and the particular greeting "Heil, Hitler". Members of the group have been accused of several murders in São Paulo's downtown.

Carecas do ABC emerged in 1987 as a dissident from the group Carecas do Subúrbio. The group currently has 250 members and is not as active as before. The group became known for fighting in the 1980s and 1990s.

title: Carecas do ABC