text:
Talk:Stella Vine

Changes
I changed the headers, this article is not a timeline, and while a chronological order makes sense, it doesn't make sense to name them for years. I moved around some material to more relevant sections, and tried to provide a narrative structure form what sources tells us are the milestones. They might be inexact, and further splitting and merging might be needed. Feel free to do so.

A salient issue I noticed is that there is some information in the "Art" section that belongs in the "Life" section and vice-versa. While sometimes this is inescapable - after all the subject is an artist, d'oh - I think we could make an effort to eliminate redundancies and misplacements in this respect.

In addition, I think this is article is way too long for an artist whose career is barely 6 years old, we could shorten it by eliminating alot of the quotes, interviews and opinions, and stick to facts around the artist.

This is not meant as a comprehensive biography, but an encyclopedia article about a living person. For example, most of the details of the early life are of no concern in an encyclopedic biography.

Compare this bio to say, Jackson Pollock, and you will see what I mean.

An encyclopedic biography is not meant to be an all-inclusive review of a subject's life, nor is it more lenght necessarly better. From what I can see, we could cut this article in half and still have an article that covers this subject better than Jackson Pollock's does its subject. But this is open for further discussion, unlike my other edits which are pretty much snowball.--Cerejota (talk) 05:43, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm perplexed as to why Jackson Pollock, a B class article, is held to be a model. We should be looking to featured articles for the standard to work to. After all, an article has the potential to be one. I note, for example, that the FA, Douglas Adams, has over 50 articles related to the main one, so there is certainly scope for a detailed exploration, where those details are valid. There is no stipulated length for an article in proportion to the notional years of the subject's career (which I make getting on for 8, as it happens).

 * The article length should be commensurate with the amount of valid information pertaining to the subject. In this case, there happens to be a great deal, because Vine has accomplished a lot with many varied activities and has achieved considerable media coverage in the process, ending up as one of the best known artists in the UK. If the sources deem fit to highlight aspects of her life, such as childhood, then so should we (I have pruned some of the early material). Most of the information is appropriate to provide the reader with an article which, per WP:TPA, "acknowledges and explores all aspects of the subject", so WP:SUMMARY would seem to be appropriate.

 *  Ty  08:30, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

 * You know the article is looking better... Could we WP:SUMMARY the art section? That is not to mean that all mentions of art are to be on the sub-article, of course.

 * I hear your point on Jackson Pollock and actually didn't see it that way, but you are right - I went for mediocrity. The task is to expand Pollock, not reduce Vine.--Cerejota (talk) 06:44, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

 * I've cut out a lot of material and placed it in separate articles to retain the main narrative here. The Drogba painting, for example, attracted a lot of media coverage, although that's not reflected in the article at present. There's quite a lot of work that can still be done on all of this. I wonder if you have suggestions for headings on Talks and collaborations by Stella Vine.  Ty  01:10, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Article neutrality
There was an edit by an anon editor that I am "controlling" this article about Stella Vine in order to "destroy her career". The edit has been oversighted because of BLP considerations about a named individual. I do not consider this allegation justified, and have posted to User talk:82.34.219.82 to request specific specific examples of any alleged bias to be stated here. It might be noted that 821 out of 1523 edits to this article have been made by User:Madeofstars. Comments about the article's conformity to wikipedi policy with regard to alleged bias are invited below.  Ty  16:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * As an observer of this article for a while, it seems clear that User:Madeofstars not only controls and patrols the article somewhat obsessively but he/she seems to attack User:Tyrenius a little too much..maybe it's time to take a break - it looks to me as though Stella Vine has a terrific article and she should be proud of the work done here...Modernist (talk) 19:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * There have been attempts since 2005 to use this article to attack Thomson and the Stuckists, or to remove information about them: some examples where such edits have been reverted—from 2005, from 2007—usually from a series of anon editors, but material removed by in 2008, e.g.. These edits have been reverted by different editors, as, per NPOV, content about Vine's interaction with Thomson and the Stuckists is necessary material for the article: it has been featured in mainstream sources on many occasions and she has spoken about it prominently in the media. There have also been accusations of bias and attacks on editors, who have included such information, as from the IP mentioned above on this thread. See also  above at : "This wiki site for Stella Vine has so obviously been exploited by the stukist (sic) for years now"; and anon at Talk:Charles_Thomson, Stella Vine, and the Stuckists: "your edits are continually biased and misleading". There have not been any examples provided of what text is supposedly biased.  Ty  05:46, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

An Encyclopedia, not a Magazine
Having looked at other Wikipedia articles featuring modern artists Francis Bacon, Salvador Dalí, Henry Moore, Pablo Picasso and Andy Warhol (two of the articles being featured articles), you find that pictures are used sparingly and are directly related to the article (being pictures of the artist, their work, and buildings/locations of note).

This article in contrast is littered with superfluous pictures, which add nothing to the article and make it look a mess. In fact this article more resembles a magazine article than an encyclopedia article.

I have therefore deleted the following superfluous pictures, which with the exception of the photo of Charles Thompson are all featured in the articles which are linked to in the main body text (the picture captions are all repetitions of text in the main body of the article).

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Memphisto (talk • contribs)

 * I have moved the list of images with the comments attached to them to the section below, so they can be discussed in detail.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Response
A consensus was reached for article content by editors working on this article and reviewing it. You need to establish a new consensus, if you don't agree with that. I have therefore reverted your edit, which removed most of the images from the article. This is the article before image removals, and after the image removals. Your edit summary was "removed superfluous pictures (please see discussion: An Encyclopedia, not a Magazine)".

According to the guideline, Images: "Articles that use more than one image should present a variety of material near relevant text. Three uniformed portraits would be redundant for a biography of a famous general. A map of a battle and a picture of its aftermath would provide more information to readers." A variety of images have been presented near relevant text in this article.

Also in Images: "Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly related to the article's topic." The images are relevant and significantly related. They all shows aspects of her life, experience, influences and relationships, which are in the text and referenced from reliable sources.

A rule of thumb is to "Try not to overwhelm the text with 'too many' pictures—one image or infographic every 250 words is a good guideline." This ratio is advocated by others also. The article is around 6,000 words, which by this rule of thumb equates to 24 images. There were 19 images in the article. The proposed removals reduce this to 4 images.

The decision as to what images are suitable is dictated by article content. If an aspect of the article is valid in words, then it is also valid in a picture, which is simply another way of communicating information, including that which cannot be easily put in words. The equation of images with a "magazine", when the same thing in text is deemed to be "encyclopedic" is an irrational prejudice against the visual as opposed to the literary. Far from being "superflous", images help the reader a great deal to engage with the subject and gain entry into the facets of it, especially when a reader may not be familiar with what something looks like.

It is not adequate to remove an image simply because it is in another article linked to in the text, if it is relevant to the subject of this article. Articles should be as complete as possible within themselves.

One reason for the lack of images in many articles is that they are not available and often severely restricted by wikipedia's fair use policy. This article benefits from the availability of free images, some taken by editors specially for it. It is not a question of paring this down to other image-poor articles, but of trying to bring them up to this standard, so the text is properly complemented by pictures: "Images aren't a requirement for any Featured Article, but asking for specific parts of articles which would benefit from having an image to be more illustrated is a valid objection."

The image captions need to be pared down, and once the images are agreed on, this will be a simple job.

 Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Examination of removed images
Word count per section is a rough guide.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Section Early life
 * Section is 300 words.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:Alnwick and Alnwick Castle - Northumberland - 140804.jpg Caption: Stella Vine was born in Alnwick, seen behind the Alnwick Castle.
 * Note: A photo of the actual house Stella Vine was born in could be used in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Memphisto (talk • contribs)
 * It is perfectly valid to have a photo of the actual village she was born in. It shows her formative environment, which is in contrast to the environment of her later life: the photo shows the difference well.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems reasonable to show this...Modernist (talk) 15:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Section London
 * Three pictures in this section, which is around 740 words. One image could go. Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:Ross Newell crop.jpg Caption: Vine lived with Ross Newell, "the love of her life", for over four years.
 * She has said he is a significant figure in her life, so the image is relevant.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:Mike Leigh (2008).jpg Caption: Vine met film director Mike Leigh in the late 1980s and auditioned for him twice.
 * She sees her encounter with him as a significant one and has talked about it recently. Weaker justification than Newell, but if that image gets deleted (which it's up for), then it is reasonable to keep this one. It shows a person she relates to.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:Windmill-Theatre.jpg Caption: The Windmill Club, where Vine worked as a stripper to pay the rent whilst living with her son in bedsits.
 * This is a notable location in her life, and somewhere she worked for a number of years.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think Newell or Leigh can go...Modernist (talk) 15:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Leigh commented out pending outcome of Possibly_unfree_files/2009_October_3, to be reinstated if Ross is deleted.  Ty  23:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Section The Stuckists
 * Section is 550 words, and can support two images.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:Stuckism International Gallery 2004 (Charles Thomson).jpg Caption: Vine's marriage to Charles Thomson on 8 August 2001 lasted about two months.
 * As her (ex) husband, Thomson is obviously a significant figure, and is mentioned throughout this section.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep these...Modernist (talk) 15:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Section Rosy Wilde and Saatchi
 * Section is 1,300 words.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:Princess Diana 1985.jpg Caption: After her mother's death in 2003, Vine painted 30 pictures of Diana, Princess of Wales. In 2009, Vine said she had been "in a bit of a crazy place" with grief.
 * Princess Diana was a significant focus for Vine and an inspiration for her work. This also allows the reader to compare the real life person with Vine's artistic depiction.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * These are ok...Modernist (talk) 15:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Section Kate Moss paintings
 * Section is 670 words.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:British Museum from NE 2.JPG Caption: The British Museum: Vine moved to a flat opposite in 2005.
 * A significant amount of this section concerns this environment. Vine has spoken about its significance for her. Again it shows the varying places she inhabits and gives the reader an insight into the context of her artistic production. However, her residence in Tavistock Square is also in the text and seems to have more significance both personally and for her art because of the London bombings, so I suggest substituting (a crop of) File:Tavistocksquarejuly2005.jpg looking towards where she lived at the time of the bombing (or else File:TavistockSquare.jpg).  Ty
 * OK...Modernist (talk) 15:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I have changed to Tavistock Square image, as this has greater importance in the text.  Ty  23:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Section Rosy Wilde re-opens
 * Section is 450 words.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:Ann-Summers-2.jpg Caption: The Rosy Wilde project space re-opened in 2006 above the Ann Summers shop in Wardour Street, London.
 * Note: A photo of the interior of Rosy Wilde could be used in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Memphisto (talk • contribs)
 * Or a photo of the exterior, showing the environment where the gallery was also. I suggest substituting File:Ann-Summers-1.jpg for a wider view.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Changed to wider angle shot to show more of the building and immediate environment.  Ty  23:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Section Modern Art Oxford
 * Section is 900 words.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:ModernArtOxford.jpg Caption: Modern Art Oxford held Vine's first major solo show in 2007. Vine did not attend the press launch or the private view openings and said she's "not interested in being a celebrity myself.".
 * Significant as the venue of her most important show to date, extensively covered in the media.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:Germaine Greer.jpg Caption: Germaine Greer wrote an essay in Vine's 2007 exhibition catalogue and also gave a public talk about Vine's work at Modern Art Oxford. Greer and Vine had previously taken part together in another public talk at the Women's International Arts Festival.
 * A significant collaborator and supporter.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:Andy Warhol 1977.jpg Caption: Andy Warhol: Jackie Wullschlager in the Financial Times said Vine was his descendent.
 * Vine has likened herself to Warhol, and also been compared with him by at least two significant sources. This juxtaposition is an interesting and stimulating one, which brings home the point for the reader to make their own judgement. Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:Topshop Oxford Street London 2009.jpg Caption: Stella Vine designed a fashion range for Topshop in 2007 inspired by her artworks.
 * Note: A photo of the clothing could be used in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Memphisto (talk • contribs)
 * Not necessarily, don't agree...Modernist (talk) 15:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

 * The venue for which the clothing was designed and where it was sold is also informative for the reader, and shows another facet of Vine's varied life, and an interesting contrast with Modern Art Oxford. However, it needs to go in the next section.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Top Shop image moved to following section where the relevant text is.  Ty  23:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Section Top Shop and Sport Relief
 * Section is 500 words.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Top Shop image from preceding section needs to go in this section.
 * Image moved to this section.  Ty  23:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Picture: File:Drogba 2008-crop.jpg Caption: Didier Drogba: Vine painted him in 2008 for the Sport Relief charity.
 * Note: A photo of the original painting could be used in the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by Memphisto (talk • contribs)
 * It is relevant as he is the subject and there was interaction between them for the painting. Some more text could be added about this. Again it demonstrates clearly the diversity of her artistic inspiration (cf Princess Diana). Using the painting means another non-free image, and is best avoided.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:Eden Project Winter 2008 showing Bruce Munro field of Light.JPG Caption: Vine is creating new work for a large solo show at The Eden Project scheduled for summer 2010.
 * This can go. It's a future event and if it gets coverage in sources, the image can be reassessed.  Ty
 * agreed...Modernist (talk) 15:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Image removed.  Ty  23:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Section Future
 * Section is 80 words.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Picture: File:OxfordUnionTwo20040228CopyrightKaihsuTai.png Caption: Vine is speaking in a debate at the Oxford Union in February 2009.
 * This can go. There doesn't seem to be any further coverage of the event, after the initial announcement, so not significant.  Ty  19:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * agreed...Modernist (talk) 15:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Image removed.  Ty  23:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

No need for a new consensus
There is no need to reach a new consensus for the Stella Vine article, the consensus already exists within the following related articles - Francis Bacon, Salvador Dalí, Henry Moore, Henri Matisse, Pablo Picasso, Jackson Pollock, Andy Warhol and living artists articles Banksy, Tracey Emin, Jeff Koons and David Hockney. (I would again point out that the Salvador Dalí and Henry Moore articles have been featured articles – the very best articles on Wikipedia).

The use of pictures in these articles is limited to:

Pictures of the artist alone or with others.

Pictures of the artists work.

Pictures of buildings/locations of note to the artist.

As for the word/picture ratio, this would apply only to pictures that already meet the above requirements.

The pictures I have deleted do not meet these standards. Memphisto (talk) 13:59, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Consensus does matter, the pictures are fine. She isn't Bacon, Warhol, Dali, Matisse, etc. and so she requires a differing approach. I completely disagree with comments by Mephisto. Firstly we do not compare artists to each other nor do we necessarily compare articles. Different issues, different characterizations, different works and different biographies define each separate article in different ways. I was among those who edited the Henry Moore article to FA status by the way. Thank you for your input - however the images are fine, a few of them can go, most are helpful...Modernist (talk) 14:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I was asked to take a look by Memphisto. My first impression is that, per Tyrenius, a few of the images could be trimmed, but most of them are ok. Hope that helps. --John (talk) 15:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Cutting images
Chancing across this article again, I've cut the following images as misleading:- I've also clarified in the caption that the Windmill Theatre photo is not a contemporary one. --McGeddon (talk) 17:13, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Princess Diana and Didier Drogba: a neutral reader will expect an image captioned as "Vine painted this person" to be a photo of that painting, it seems unnecessarily confusing to have a photo unrelated to Vine's work
 * Andy Warhol: inspiration and comparison does not merit the weight that a photo gives
 * Germaine Greer: similarly, Greer writing an essay doesn't seem significant enough for a photo
 * Top Shop: caption talks about her fashion range, image is (since it was taken two years later) not of that fashion range, and the article doesn't single out this particular store as significant, or whether the range was sold in all shops.

Reappraising the Stella Vine pages
It is difficult to criticise something that so much work has gone into but I'll put this out there in the hope that it will ultimately result in better coverage of this subject. Currently this page and the others associated with it (The art of Stella Vine, Talks and collaborations by Stella Vine, Charitable work by Stella Vine, Charles Thomson, Stella Vine, and the Stuckists, and Rosy Wilde) look a little bit like some kind of Stella Vine Internet Scrapbook rather than encyclopedia entries. They abound in trivia (she liked the TV series Bagpuss, she used to listen to PJ Harvey, plans for Christmas, etc), anecdotal information, surplus background material and long passages in need of summarising. These pages do a real disservice to an interesting contemporary painter and anyone wanting to research her. Maybe a consensus can be established that the content of the numerous Stella Vine pages be merged back to one critically edited, well-rounded and coherent page and that this should be illustrated with examples of her work and not photographs of people that she happens to have painted pictures of, people that she has been compared to or places that she lived near to. I hope that this comment will be taken in the spirit of constructive criticism in which it is intended. --Nofoto (talk) 08:27, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia article construction is governed by various policies and guidelines, such as the standard procedure of WP:SUMMARY, which this one follows—namely separate articles on specific topics that are too large to fit into the main article. You may think this makes a scrapbook, but that's what's been agreed by widespread consensus. Check out a featured article such as Barack Obama. You will find this template at the bottom, showing all the split off content: Barack Obama (click show).

 * Regarding your point about "trivia", namely "she liked the TV series Bagpuss, she used to listen to PJ Harvey, plans for Christmas". You have taken the first of these out of context, which is:
 * She loved the TV series Bagpuss and said as an adult that the words and tunes were still in her head: "It had a dark edge to it - it filled your imagination."
 * This does not seem at all trivial, but shows a lasting involvement, which also gives insight into her character at an early age, and shows characteristics which have been seen in her mature work. Vine has expressed admiration for PJ Harvey as a role model. The article does not include this, but ideally should do, in which case the existing mention will become more significant. Again, "plans for Christmas" trivialises the actual text, which is:
 * Vine told The Guardian that she would spend Christmas Day 2008 with a run around the Serpentine, or a walk in Hyde Park or across London town with her son's bullmastiff dog and a small haversack of whisky and coffee.
 * This is not the usual way to spend Christmas, and gives an insight into the lifestyle of the artist. I don't see this as doing "a real disservice to an interesting contemporary painter", but quite the opposite. It enables the reader to gain an insight into her life, which is something a biography should do. For "anyone wanting to research her", there is a wealth of information about all aspects of her life and career. I don't see how reducing the amount of information is going to improve this. I would have thought the opposite should be the aim.

 * There is no need to merge back the other articles to make this one a "critically edited, well-rounded and coherent page." That can and should be done anyway. The others simply explore particular aspects in more detail (for "anyone wanting to research" further).

 * You say the article should be "illustrated with examples of her work". Her work is copyright and can only be used on wikipedia as fair use under our Non-free content guidelines, which are more restrictive than legal fair use and mandate minimal usage of such content. Two of her best known paintings are shown.

 * You object to "photographs of people that she happens to have painted pictures of, people that she has been compared to or places that she lived near to." To say "happens to" does not represent her relationship with her subjects, which she has described as having great personal importance for her, and are taken from media images (apart from family subjects). Images are a way of presenting information to the reader. If information is valid in textual form, then it is valid in another, i.e. visual form.

 * There is one photograph of a place "that she lived near to" (actually of the place that she lived in). There is a whole paragraph showing the importance of her experience in this location at the time of the July 2005 London bombings. She has, besides this, also talked on various occasions about the significance of location for her.

 * There is one image of someone "she has been compared to". This again is informative. However, you again omit the context, which is somewhat more than you indicate. The article says:
 * Vine said to The Independent on Sunday that she feels a strong connection to Warhol and having studied Warhol in depth on a course at Tate Modern she also considers herself as a similar type of character as him.
 * This, then, is Vine's own assertion of Warhol's importance, and, if she thinks he is important, it is not up to the Wikipedia editor to decide otherwise.

 * Additionally, all the images have been appraised on an individual basis in the section immediately above this one. Modernist is one of the most experienced visual arts editors, working to featured article quality. John is an admin of long standing. It is helpful to read previous discussions concerning an article to see if issues have already been raised and what points have been made about them.

 * As you say, a lot of "work has gone into" the article(s), but more than that there has been a lot of discussion involving different editors about the content. There is always room for improvement, but I don't see the suggestions to date are the way to do that.

 *  Ty  01:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Badly needs Editing (butchering)
I came here accidentally but can't believe the amount of detailed material in this article about - let's be honest - a very minor/peripheral artist. A brief outline of her life and career highlights would suffice. I'm not sure that we need quite so many photographs of places where she apparently once lived. And photographs of subjects that she once painted. Ok, if that important, show the paintings but why the need for, say, a photo of Drogba? This is a self-written entry isn't it? No-one other than the subject could possibly have such a forensic interest in her life. Doesn't do Wikipedia any favours.... Twizzlemas (talk) 20:32, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed about the pictures - checking the archives I cut the silly ones out in 2009, but they were added back as "relevant to text and informative" shortly afterwards. It looks like the talk page section above this has a defence of some of the remaining pictures, although I don't agree with all of them (the photos of individual people, in particular, add nothing to the reader's understanding of the article).
 * The article length isn't a problem, though. Wikipedia is not printed on paper, there is no need to cut down articles about obscure subjects to make room for more popular ones. --McGeddon (talk) 20:53, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Your last line made me smile and of course you're right. My objection is simply that I'm very interested in artists and their work but occasionally on Wikipedia I come across entries that seem so out of proportion to their subjects actual importance that I feel it doesn't do the project any credit. I have no real feeling one way or t'other about Stella Vine (in my opinion a glorified cartoonist/illustrator but what do I know?) but from everything I gather she is not one of the main movers and shakers of 21st Century Brit Art. But I could be proved very very wrong .... :-)  Twizzlemas (talk) 22:03, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Merging other Vine articles
Charitable work by Stella Vine was recently deleted and merged with this article. The art of Stella Vine has been tagged as another possible merge since February 2012, with no discussion - I've changed the templates to point to this discussion here, and proposed the same merge for Talks and collaborations by Stella Vine. All three articles have an uneven amount of overlap and would be better combined into a single, clear article. "Talks and collaborations" seems particularly thin, as it appears to be including every possible press interview Vine has given. ("In the same month, Vine told The Guardian that she would spend Christmas Day 2008 with a run around the Serpentine, or a walk in Hyde Park or across London town with her son's bullmastiff dog and a small haversack of whisky and coffee.") I've put a fourth article, Charles Thomson, Stella Vine, and the Stuckists up for deletion, suggesting it be merged with Vine and Thomson's articles. --McGeddon (talk) 08:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

 * Hopefully with several of the content forks being nominated at AfD there should be wider interest in this issue at last. It is a no-brainer in my view, the synthesised and over-detailed content fork articles, The art of Stella Vine and Talks and collaborations by Stella Vine should be selectively merged. Charitable work by Stella Vine has already gone through the AfD process and been merged back into the main article. There is a strong case for taking a closer look at the Stella Vine article itself now a number of years have elapsed since the height of her fame. I can possibly understand the enthusiasm of the original authors, because the article was written close to the height of her notoriety when objectivity was more difficult. Sionk (talk) 11:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

In the absence of any disagreement, I've gone ahead and started by merging The art of Stella Vine into this article, as well as trimming some of the trivia and less-significant-seeming quotes from critics and Vine herself. --McGeddon (talk) 10:27, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Excellent job with the merging and pruning, it is becoming easier to read. I may add back some of the section sub-headings and reorganise things a little bit. The 'Saatchi effect' in particular seems to be a major subject focused on by the press above anything else. The difficulty lies in disentangling this from the counter-claims and point scoring by the Stuckists! Sionk (talk) 12:07, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

 * I had a look at merging Talks and collaborations by Stella Vine, but it seemed to be an indiscriminate list of occasions where Vine talked at an event or gave an interview to the press. The only significant paragraphs seemed to be the Eden Project work, and her design work for Top Shop, but both of these are already mentioned here. I've redirected the article. --McGeddon (talk) 15:19, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Template:Stella Vine
Template:Stella Vine has been nominated for deletion. Sionk (talk) 12:02, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Conflict of interest tag
Sorry about that, I meant to put a link back to the AfD where I mentioned it, but added the template with a widget and forgot to.

User:Madeofstars spent about a year writing this and other Stella Vine articles, and crowbarring mentions of Vine into tenuously-connected pages - this talk page list from 2009 shows that Madeofstars has shown a strong emotional bias towards Vine and against her detractors, the user briefly self-identified as "a big fan" of Vine, and from other user-talk threads seems to have been personally present at several of Vine's shows, and has been acting as an email go-between to get Wikipedia's permission to use images. Assuming good faith and concluding this is just a Vine superfan who's taken amateur video footage of her shows and wants to fight Vine's corner at Wikipedia, it is potentially close to a "personal connection to a topic or person" and "people with whom you could reasonably be said to have an antagonistic relationship in real life" WP:COS, and we should look at this whole article - and any which we merge into it - on that basis. --McGeddon (talk) 18:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

 * It is obvious the original author was heavily biased in favour of Vine, but then that is often the case with new articles about celebs, musicians etc. It's an interesting observation that 'Madeofstars' equals 'Stellar' - presumably you are good at crosswords! I've no great opposition to you adding back the COI tag because, clearly, the article(s) need a lot of editing and clean up to make them encyclopedic. Sionk (talk) 00:39, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not wish to talk off-topic, but how this individual can qualify as an artist is beyond me. Most junior school students could equal or surpass her "talents". Having said this, there is an element of interesting expressionism in her work.--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Stella Vine


text:
Statutum in favorem principum

The Statutum in favorem principum ("Statute in favour of the princes") of 1231, reaffirmed in 1232, counts as one of the most important sources of law of the Holy Roman Empire on German territory.

In May 1231 Frederick II's son Henry, King of Germany, issued the grant under pressure from the German secular princes during his rebellion against his father. The terms were very similar to those conceded to the ecclesiastical princes or bishops in the Confoederatio cum principibus ecclesiasticis at the time of the Henry's coronation (in 1220), conferring similar rights. Frederick II confirmed the grant in May 1232.

In this law, the Emperor relinquished a number of important Royal rights ("Regalia") to the secular princes. Among other things, they received the rights to mint coins and levy tolls in the German part of the Holy Roman Empire. In particular, however, Frederick granted them the right of approval over any legislation proposed in future by the Emperor.

The decreeing of this law together with the previous Confoederatio made the power and influence of the territorial princes in relation to the Empire and the towns extraordinarily great. Frederick's aim was to leave his Empire north of the Alps secure under the direct rule of the princes, allowing him to concentrate his efforts on the southern part of the Empire. This rule of the land by the princes was nevertheless secured at the expense of the centralised power of the monarchy.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Statutum in favorem principum


text:
Julian Gumperz

Julian Gumperz (May 12, 1898 in New York City – February 1972 in Gaylordsville, Connecticut) was a United States-born German sociologist, communist activist, publicist, and translator.

Institute for Social Research
Julian Gumperz studied political economy at Halle University. He left university as a committed Marxist and published an anti-war magazine called Der Gegner. One of its contributors was George Grosz.

Gumperz married Hede Massing. In her autobiography she described him as being refined, soft-spoken, and a sensitive young man, not hardened by politics although he too then belonged to the left circle."

Julian Gumperz was an assistant at the Institute for Social Research (Institut für Sozialforschung) at Frankfurt am Main in Germany, one of the lesser known communist proponents of the Frankfurt School. His work there focused on economics. Gumperz married Hede Eisler (born Hedwig Thune, later Hede Massing) in 1927, but the marriage did not last.

In the summer of 1922, he attended the Institute's "Erste Marxistische Arbeitswoche" (First Marxist Week) in Ilmenau, Thuringia. Among the participants at the week-long session were Georg Lukács, Karl Korsch, Richard Sorge, Friedrich Pollock, Karl August Wittfogel, Bela Fogarasi, Karl Schmuckle, and Konstantin Zetkin, the younger of the two sons of socialist leader and feminist Clara Zetkin.

In 1933, due to political persecution in Germany, the institute sent Gumperz to the U.S. to explore the situation. Gumperz had been a student of Pollock’s since 1929 and a Communist Party member, but he gave it all up and became a stockbroker. He worked as a publicist and translator and later wrote an anti-communist book. Gumperz returned to Germany with a favorable report, assuring Max Horkheimer and the others that the Institute’s endowment, which still brought in about $30,000 a year, would be enough to guarantee survival in depression era America.

Publicist
For a time, Gumperz was the editor of the Communist newspaper Die Rote Fahne. In 1919 Gumperz and Karl Otten founded the Berlin monthly publication Der Gegner ("The Opponent"). It was published between April 1919 and 1922 by Gumperz with Wieland Herzfelde. One of a series of small German periodicals published in Berlin following World War I (Jedermann sein eigner Fussball, Die Pleite and Der Blutige Ernst), which followed on the heels of the German review Der Dada. Frequent banning orders compelled a constant change of title. With art by George Grosz, Der Gegner decried an art with no relevance to the working class and which ignored revolutionary action. The communist uprising in Berlin in 1918, crushed by the government, had given rise to these satirical, radical, and political reviews.

In 1947, he and Karl Volk co-authored a book, Pattern for World Revolution, writing under the pseudonym "Ypsilon".

title: Julian Gumperz


text:
Last Holiday (2006 film)

Last Holiday is a 2006 American romantic comedy-drama film directed by Wayne Wang and written by Jeffrey Price and Peter S. Seaman. The film is loosely based on the 1950 British film of the same name by J. B. Priestley. The film stars Queen Latifah as Georgia, a humble department store assistant who is told that she has a rare brain condition and only has a few weeks to live. She promptly decides to spend her remaining funds on a luxury holiday in Europe before she dies.

Price and Seaman wanted John Candy for the main role but, after Candy's death, Latifah's agent suggested a new version starring her. Produced by Robert Zemeckis' ImageMovers, the film was released by Paramount Pictures on January 13, 2006. The film underperformed at the box office, having grossed $43.3 million against a budget of $45 million and received mixed reviews from critics, though Latifah's performance was universally praised for her charm and humor.

Plot
Georgia Byrd is a shy, unassuming salesperson in the cookware department at Kragen's Department Store in New Orleans and a Baptist choir singer who longs to cook professionally. She privately records her dreams of a better life in a scrapbook labeled "Possibilities" enjoys replicating TV chef Emeril Lagasse's gourmet recipes, serving her creations to a neighbor while denying herself the pleasure of eating them.

During the Christmas season, while flirting with handsome co-worker Sean Williams, whom she has secretly featured in her scrapbook as her dream husband, Georgia bumps her head. Taken to the store's health center for a CT scan, she is told by the company physician that she has several brain tumors resulting from a rare terminal neurological disorder called Lampington's disease.

As her HMO plan does not cover the high cost of an operation, Georgia resigns herself to having only a few weeks to live. She quits her job, liquidates her assets, and sets off on a dream vacation at the deluxe Grandhotel Pupp in the Czech Republic's spa city of Karlovy Vary.

Free of inhibitions and determined to enjoy the final weeks of her life, Georgia checks into the Presidential Suite and buys a designer wardrobe in expensive boutiques. She then also makes extensive use of the hotel's spa facilities, attempts snowboarding and BASE jumping, enjoys succulent meals prepared by world-renowned Chef Didier, and wins a small fortune playing roulette in the casino.

Georgia impresses the hotel's staff, with the exception of the cantankerous guest services manager Ms. Gunther, with her naive manner and forthright kindness. She also mingles with some of the other guests, including Matthew Kragen, an arrogant self-help guru and the owner of the department store where she worked; Kragen's assistant/mistress Ms. Burns; and Louisiana power brokers Senator Dillings and Congressman Stewart. Kragen is wary of Georgia and suspects her of trying to sabotage his business, but the rest are charmed by her free spirit.

When Kragen bribes Ms. Gunther to dig up information about Georgia's background, she goes through her hotel suite. She finds a letter Georgia has written providing instructions for the disposal of her remains after her death. Moved by the letter and realizing Georgia's self-confidence and sunny optimism have touched everyone who has met her since her arrival, Ms. Gunther confesses to Georgia she snooped through her belongings and found the letter. She urges her to return home and spend her last days with those she loves.

Taking Ms. Gunther's advice, Georgia heads for the airport but discovers an avalanche has blocked the road. Unbeknownst to her, Sean, having learned of Georgia's diagnosis and ready to acknowledge his long-standing feelings for her, has flown to Europe and is in a taxi on the other side of the snowdrift, blocked from reaching her at the hotel.

Georgia returns to the hotel, and Sean leaves his taxi to hike across the snow on foot. Chef Didier invites her to assist him in the hotel's kitchen that night preparing an extravagant New Year's Eve feast and thanks her publicly at the party. Later, seated at dinner and incensed by the accolades and affection Georgia has received, Kragen tries to humiliate her to his companions by exposing her as a saleswoman in one of his stores, but Georgia confirms this and reveals her terminal illness.

Kragen's companions, disgusted by his insensitivity, embrace her and abandon him. Dejected and embarrassed, Kragen goes to an upper floor of the hotel and sits on the ledge, contemplating suicide. Georgia tries to dissuade this, suggesting if he were nicer and less driven by greed, he would be a happier person.

Sean arrives at the hotel just in time and joins Georgia on the ledge, confessing his affection for her and admitting he'd seen her scrapbook. In the lobby, Ms. Gunther finds a fax for Georgia stating she was misdiagnosed due to a faulty CT scanner and does not have Lampington's disease. Ms. Gunther rushes up to the ledge to announce the good news.

Georgia and Sean return to New Orleans as a couple where they open a restaurant, Georgia's Joint, which is visited by Chef Didier and Emeril Lagasse.

Cast
• Queen Latifah as Georgia Byrd: The main protagonist, a shy cookware saleswoman at a retail department store with big dreams and aspirations of becoming a chef and owning her own restaurant. The untimely event learning that she seemingly diagnosed with a terminal illness encourages Georgia to quit her unfulfilling job, go on a dream vacation at the Grand Hotel Pupp and venture out of her comfort zone. She keeps a "Book of Possibilities" scrapbook, which contains everything her heart desires, from places she wants to go, foods she wants to try, people she wants to meet, and a better life.

• LL Cool J as Sean Williams: Georgia's love interest who also works at the retail store. He genuinely reciprocates Georgia's feelings, though he never had the courage to admit it out loud, partly due the latter being shy and the former unsure if she feels the same way too. After Georgia receives her diagnosis, quits her job and disappears to the Czech Republic dream vacation, Sean quits his job and tracks her down (asking the clinic's physician and Georgia's neighbor) - having realized that "without [Georgia] there [at the store], [Sean] doesn't have a reason to be there." During the search he comes across Georgia's possibilities book and realizes that she does love him. In the end, he finds Georgia and proclaims his love for her.

• Timothy Hutton as Matthew Kragen: The main antagonist is the arrogant, demanding and greedy owner of the retail store Georgia used to work and a self-help business magnate/guru. He feels threatened by Georgia's optimistic and wholesome personality - believing it to be an act to steer his associates and business backers away from him and makes multiple, unsuccessful attempts to humiliate her. Eventually, his insensitive behavior drives everyone away from him and causes him to hit an emotional rock bottom. In the end, the near-suicidal Kragan realizes the error of his ways through Georgia's advice to be less greedy and unhappy.

• Giancarlo Esposito as Senator Dillings: a visiting Senator and one of Kragen's business associates/ backer who is attracted to Georgia.

• Alicia Witt as Ms. Allison Burns: Kragen's young mistress/assistant. Her interactions with Georgia cause Ms. Burns to recognize the unfulfilling futility of her romantic relationship with Kragen and ultimately abandons him as his assistant and lover and goes back to school to finish her business degree.

• Gérard Depardieu as Chef Didier: A world-famous chef who prepares the meals at the Grand Hotel Pupp and one of Georgia's culinary heroes. He detests Kragen's demands for substitutions but admires Georgia's admiration of good cuisine and becomes her mentor.

• Jane Adams as Rochelle: Georgia's co-worker and friend.

• Susan Kellermann as Ms. Gunther: The cantankerous, sour-faced guest services manager at the Grand Hotel Pupp. She is initially suspicious of Georgia and is more than willing to expose her when Kragen bribes her to look through Georgia's hotel suite. However, she reforms after reading Georgia's note detailing instructions for her burial and softens towards Georgia. In the end, she receives Dr. Gupta's fax of Georgia's misdiagnosis due to a faulty scanner and is overjoyed by the news and quickly tells Georgia the good news. The end credits reveal that she became a private detective.

• Ranjit Chowdhry as Dr. Rabindranath Gupta: The mild-mannered physician at the store's clinic. He is so shocked and troubled by Georgia's terminal diagnosis that he becomes flustered and jittery, succumbing himself to extended periods of meditation. Eventually, he discovers that the scanner is faulty and that Georgia's illness was a misdiagnosis. In the end, he quits his job and becomes a monk in the Himalayas.

• Michael Nouri as Congressman Stewart: A visiting US Congressman who notices Georgia, admiring her sense of honesty. He is accompanied by his wife, Margaret whose only line is "asshole" in regards to Kragen's behavior towards Georgia - a sentiment the Congressman agrees.

• Jascha Washington as Darius: Georgia's nosy but goodhearted teenage neighbor who enjoys her cooking.

• Matt Ross as Mr. Adamian: Georgia's inconsiderate boss who is almost always engaged with his flip cellphone and is borderline obsessed with Kragen's business guru advice. Georgia stands up to his bullying by smashing his phone and breaking one of his Kragen business instructional CDs. The end credits reveal that he was hit by a bus while carelessly talking on his cellphone while crossing the street.

• Emeril Lagasse as Himself

• Smokey Robinson as Himself

Production
In the original 1950 film, the leading character of George Bird was played by Alec Guinness. Screenwriters Jeffrey Price and Peter S. Seaman (of Who Framed Roger Rabbit and Doc Hollywood fame) updated the story for John Candy, with Carl Reiner directing, but the project was shelved after the actor's death in 1994. Years later, Queen Latifah's agent read their script and suggested they revise it for her.

The gourmet cuisine seen throughout the film was prepared by chefs from the Food Network, and recipes for many of the dishes, including Lobster Salad in Potato Leek Nests, Duck Hash on Toasted Baguette, Spiced Lamb Shanks with Blood Orange Relish, Roasted Quail with Brioche and Chorizo Stuffing, Risotto Barolo with Roasted Vegetables, Bananas Foster and Poulet Tchoupitoulas, were available on the network's website. In one scene, Georgia watches footage from Emeril Live to help her prepare a chicken. As part of the film's promotion, Queen Latifah appeared as a guest on Lagasse's show.

The film opened on 2,514 screens in the US, earning $12,806,188 and ranking number two in its opening weekend. It eventually grossed $38,399,961 in the US and $4,943,287 in foreign markets for a worldwide box office total of $43,343,248.

Reception
Queen Latifah was nominated for the NAACP Image Award for Outstanding Actress in a Motion Picture.

The aggregate site Rotten Tomatoes gives the film an approval rating of based on  reviews, and an average rating of. The site's critical consensus reads, "Although Queen Latifah's bountiful life-affirming spirit permeates the film, director Wayne Wang is unable to revive this remake with any real flair." Roger Ebert of the Chicago Sun-Times said the film "takes advantage of the great good nature and warmth of Queen Latifah, and uses it to transform a creaky old formula into a comedy that is just plain lovable. To describe the plot is to miss the point, because this plot could have been made into countless movies not as funny and charming as this one ... All depends on the Queen, who has been known to go over the top on occasion, but in this film finds all the right notes and dances to them delightfully. It is good to attend to important cinema like Syriana and Munich, but on occasion we must be open to movies that have more modest ambitions: They only want to amuse us, warm us, and make us feel good. Last Holiday plays like a hug."

Ruthe Stein of the San Francisco Chronicle stated, "Latifah's latest vehicle inexorably marches toward an ending you can see coming from the first reel ... This harmless bit of fluff lacks the element of surprise but is not without random charming moments supplied by its incandescent star."

Jessica Reaves of the Chicago Tribune awarded the film three out of four stars and described Queen Latifah as "soft, bold and very funny, infusing this otherwise predictable movie with a contagious charm." She added, "While this is not exactly a profound film, and the message is hardly new, it's testament to this movie's joyous energy that it doesn't matter in the least. We may know exactly where we're going, but the journey is so much fun, all but the most peevish audience members will find it impossible to complain."

Janet K. Keeler of the St. Petersburg Times graded the film B− and commented, "Strong performances by Latifah, LL Cool J and Depardieu, who is strangely but perfectly cast, save Last Holiday from irrelevance. Latifah is more than the funny girl with attitude we've seen in Bringing Down the House, Taxi and Beauty Shop. She's got the goods to play the leading lady, and a sexy one at that. Latifah's performance here isn't as good as her Oscar-nominated turn in Chicago, but it shows off more range and a subtler touch than subsequent movies."

title: Last Holiday (2006 film)


text:
Talk:Bellahouston

[Untitled]
Have removed the phrase "newly built" from the description of the Palace of Art, because the Glasgow City Council - Bellahouston Page says the building is left over from the 1938 Empire Exhibition, and video evidence here seems to corroborate it. Insipid 22:54, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

It's the "Palace of Arts Centre for Sports Excellence" that's newly built, but the rather unwieldy name might have led to confusion. I'll leave it be as the phrase dates the article unnecessarily. Stx 18:02, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I see what you're saying and do agree (as you said, it dates the article); but based on that glasgow.gov.uk link (and seeing the building now and pictures then) I'm not convinced they're different buildings. It may house new "functionality", but I think it's the same structure. Insipid 00:05, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Now that I've had a look into it, I'm fairly sure that my assumption was mistaken. The "newly built" phrase comes from an earlier edit by the article originator, and I had assumed it was an extension to the Palace of Arts from the Empire Exhibition as I've not lived in the area for a while. This doesn't seem to be the case at all on further investigation. Cheers! Stx 12:15, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Yeah, I see. I hated to sound so petty, but I really wanted my first not-totally-trivial Wikipedia edit to be on solid ground. :P Cheers! Insipid 18:13, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bellahouston


text:
Arthur Godfrey Peuchen

Lieutenant Colonel Arthur Godfrey Peuchen (April 18, 1859 – December 7, 1929) was a Canadian businessman and RMS Titanic survivor.

Early life
Born in Montreal, Canada East, Peuchen was the son of a railroad contractor; his maternal grandfather managed the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway. He was educated in private schools.

“Born in Montreal in 1859, Peuchen is the son of German immigrant parents. His father has been a railroad contractor in South America and his grandfather had managed the London, Brighton and Midland Railway. In 1871 he moved to Toronto....” from Titanic, the Canadian Story by Alan Hustak (1998).

In 1888, he entered military life and became a lieutenant of The Queen's Own Rifles of Canada. Peuchen moved up the ranks, and in 1911, was marshalling officer at the coronation of King George V and Queen Mary.

In 1897, Peuchen perfected plans for extracting useful chemicals from coarse hardwoods and waste woods, the principal products being acetic acid, acetate of lime, acetone, methanol, and formaldehyde. The acids were used by dyeing industries, formaldehyde was used by wheat growers in Canada, and acetone was used to manufacture high explosives like cordite.

Peuchen subsequently became president of Standard Chemical, Iron & Lumber Company of Canada, Ltd. The company had many plants and facilities in Canada, as well as refineries located in Canada (Montreal), France, (Germany), and the UK (London). Because some company facilities were located abroad, Peuchen often traveled to Europe by ship.

Peuchen owned a yacht named Vreda which crossed the Atlantic under its own canvas. For a time, he was Vice-Commodore and Rear-Commodore of the Royal Canadian Yacht Club. He also owned a vast, Victorian estate and mansion called "Woodlands," located on Kempenfelt Bay, near Barrie, Ontario just north of Toronto.

Titanic
Peuchen boarded Titanic at Southampton, on April 10, 1912, as a first-class passenger on his 40th transatlantic voyage. He reportedly was concerned that Captain Smith was in command, because he thought Smith was a poor commander and too old.

On the night Titanic sank, Peuchen was near Lifeboat No. 6 as it was being lowered, until Quartermaster Robert Hichens shouted above that the boat was poorly manned. Second Officer Lightoller asked if there were any other seamen available, and when Peuchen saw none were present, he stepped forward to volunteer, telling Lightoller that he was a yachtsman. Captain Smith was standing nearby and suggested Peuchen go down to the Promenade Deck, so he could break a window and climb into Lifeboat No. 6. Lightoller replied, however, that Peuchen could slide down the ropes to enter the boat if he was as good a sailor as he claimed. Peuchen then took a rope, swung off the ship, and climbed hand-under-hand down to Lifeboat No. 6. He was the only male passenger that Lightoller would allow into a lifeboat that night. He later claimed he did not realize Titanic was doomed until he viewed the ship from the lifeboat. After he was in the boat, Peuchen realized that during his climb down into lifeboat, his wallet had fallen out of his pocket and into the water.

Because Peuchen was a military officer, he came under scrutiny for allowing Robert Hichens to prevent the boat's occupants from going back for survivors and for tolerating the verbal abuse Hichens reportedly gave.

Peuchen publicly blasted Captain Smith and the crew of Titanic, criticizing their seamanship as substandard; however, his official testimony at the United States Senate inquiry into the disaster was tempered somewhat from interviews he gave in the days after the rescue.

In 1987, Peuchen's wallet was recovered from the area around the remains of Titanic; streetcar tickets, a traveler's cheque, and his calling card were found inside.

Later years
In Toronto, some deemed Peuchen a coward given that he was a man who had survived the sinking, but most found his participation in the ill-fated voyage to be largely heroic and courageous. In part due to this debated reputation, speculation gathered that his expected promotion to lieutenant-colonel in The Queen's Own Rifles would not be awarded. Despite the conjecture, the promotion was made on May 21, 1912; he also received the Volunteer Officers' Decoration. When World War I began, Peuchen retired from Standard Chemical to command the Home Battalion of the Queen's Own Rifles.

He died in Toronto on December 7, 1929, in his 71st year. His body was buried in Toronto's Mount Pleasant Cemetery.

Portrayals

 * Robert Ayres in A Night to Remember

title: Arthur Godfrey Peuchen