text:
User talk:Huldra/Archive 1

NB, since English is not my main language: do feel free to improve it! Huldra 17:27, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

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Talk:Occupied Territories (Israeli)
Huldra --

Care to comment at the above? Thanks.

Marsden 17:47, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

POV forks
Marsden has created a POV fork of Occupation of the Palestinian territories, which Wikipedia simply doesn't allow. I agreed to allow it to stay as long as he didn't link to it, but he has repeatedly broken that agreement. If he wants to fix up articles, he should fix them up, not create personal versions on the same topic. And, by the way, I never saw you on the Talk: page before you reverted. Jayjg (talk) 00:46, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I showed Marsden the Occupation of the Palestinian territories, he decided he didn't like it, so he created a new article that suited him better. Wikipedia doesn't permit two articles on the same topic from different POVs; if he wanted to improve the original article, he should have done so, rather than creating a new version. And it's rather inconsistent of you to insist that others need to use Talk: pages, but that you have no need to because you use "common sense" instead. And by the way, regarding this comment,, it would help if you actually knew the sequence of events before drawing conclusions. Marsden stated he was leaving Wikipedia, then "re-considered" and stated that he was sticking around so he could edit war with those he disagreed with: He then immediately went to 5 articles he had never been to before, 3 to revert me, and two to argue on Talk: pages where I was in disputes with others. This was long before the events that you comment on, so maybe you should investigate a little further in the future before you laugh quite so hard in the future. Jayjg (talk) 01:51, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

If you looked through Marsden's contributions, you would have noted many, many direct references to me, including various insultes and accusations that I am professionally paid to edit Wikipedia. If you're not willing to actually research the subject, then I see no point in discussing it with you. Jayjg (talk) 03:52, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Huldra, you might also find that it is mainly Jayjg and his cronies who refer to Occupied Territories (Israeli) as a "POV fork" of the Occupation of the Palestinian territories article (which Jay failed to mention he did not like either). Cheers!  Marsden 04:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

No personal attacks
Huldra, your comments about other editors are becoming offensive. Please review No personal attacks. You've made only 126 edits, 76 to the encyclopedia, so it's pretty early in your Wikipedia career to be so judgmental. Also, please see Assume good faith. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

A little help in the revert wars
Huldra, sorry to bother you, but my double shadows have been up to mischief tonight. Would you mind terribly reverting Occupied Territories (Israeli) and Territories under Israeli control to my last versions, as of 04:10, 28 September 2005 and 04:21, 28 September 2005 respectively? SlimVirgin having so helpfully pointed out your new-ness here, the way you revert is you go to the article itself -- you may get re-directed on the "Occupied Territories (Israeli)" article, in which case in the article you end up at there should be a link under the title that says "Redirected from ..." that will take you back to the original article -- then click on the "history" tab, click the link for the version you want to revert to (this will have the time and date as the link text), click on the "edit this page" tab there, then scroll down on the edit page and click the "Save Page" button (ignoring the warning that it isn't the latest version of the article). I'd appreciate it much.

Also, I've been trying to do a little research on that US Aid to Israel project: there was a year -- 1993, I think -- when the US gave Israel almost a hundred combat aircraft under the "Excess Military Articles" program. The US government used to have a very useful database that you could search to find out anything you wanted to know about it, but now they've apparently dumbed the database down. Anyway, this EMA program has kind of been a shady thing, since it doesn't have to show up specifically in government accounting, so it's on top of the $3 billion annually that Israel has regularly been getting. You can imagine the value of a hundred combat aircraft -- including a few F-16s, for example. Eventually I'll find the info again.

Cheers. Marsden 04:36, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Huldra, I hope you won't simply take revert instructions from another new editor. A few editors have agreed on the new title, and we're now trying to improve the article, despite Marsden's reverting. If you want to increase your edit count in a qualitative way, I invite you to join us. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Marsden, SlimVirgin: I was just writing that I was DEAD (its past 7 in the morning here-and I have not been to bed)..To Marsden: I´ve looked at the pages but I can hardly keep my eyes open, much less understand what the whole thing is about. And I really, really cannot edit something I do not understand! I´m sorry. (Hey, how awake are you at 7, without sleep?) To SlimVirgin: "increase your edit count in a qualitative way"...by becoming involved i reverting-wars?? Me not think so. The way I want to contribute to Wikipedia is outlined on my user-page + several other articles I would like to write. But if Wikipedia is worth the effort I have yet to decide: the jury is out. What I have seen of bias in the Middle East earea isn´t very pretty, IMO. I see a lot of people have quit Wikipedia due to what they call "the zionist lobby" -or similar things. Isn´t that a concern? Anyway, I´m writing this in a semi-concious state, now I´m definitely logging out, will not be back for 2 days (I have another life demanding my attention!) Regards, and goodnight (or rather: good morning) Huldra 05:24, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Your vote needed
Hey, Huldra. POV matter at. Thanks.

Marsden 13:27, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

"Why they are ****"
Thanks for your thoughts, Huldra.

I hope you can appreciate that I did not put the words on my user page that you find so offensive casually. It may be that you have a different understanding of the facts than I do; it may be that you have a different understanding of what constitutes "evil." For my part, I would far prefer to offend an infinite number of people on Wikipedia, many of them completely innocent, than to stand idly by while the words by which people's rights and dignities are understood get rearranged; I think history bears out very clearly that the facts by which people's rights and dignities are understood invariably follow.

From your comments, I take it that you see "evil" as some distant and exotic, terrible thing, of which we should all be aware yet never expect actually to see. I cannot fully express to you how wrong and how dangerous I think this perspective is.

In any case, as you have noted of my presence at Wikipedia, you have a choice regarding my user page: if you don't like it, don't look. If you think less of me for being extreme, so be it. But as I noted before, I'm happy to indulge in any amount of extremism if doing so can help in even the smallest way to prevent something that even you might recognize as "real evil."

Marsden 13:48, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your second round of thoughts, Huldra.

 * Again, it seems that our understandings either of the facts or of what constitutes "evil" are at odds. However "casually" you may think I use the term "evil," I hope you'll at least leave a slight breath of air for the possibility that maybe there are validities to my understandings that are missing in yours; I have no doubt but that the opposite is true.

 * I perhaps expect more than you do that people should have thick skin. If I were recklessly ambling into something that was just plain wrong -- something that has happened in my life more often than I wish were the case -- I would hope that anyone who witnessed my error-in-progress would condemn me in the strongest possible terms.  And so I am doing for others what I would hope they would do for me.

 * You write that I have accomplished nothing positive with my extremist language, and I have read similar comments from a couple others here. I have to say, Huldra, that the opinion of someone who would change it out of spite isn't worth anything anyway.  What is important, I think, is that matters that were fait accompli are now being debated, and this, in my opinion, is a step forward.

 * Marsden 01:13, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

White Paper of 1939
Hi - just added a comment to the White Paper talk page, thanks for pointing that out. I also added the link to Edward Said's page (that is where you would add the category link, check version history to see how I did it.) Thanks for your other comments too, I don't know what to make about the "homeland" versus "national home" thing, but it helps to stay accurate in citing sources on Wikipedia ;) Let me know if I could be of further help! Ramallite (talk) 03:17, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your note - I still haven't gotten a chance to go over the Balfour Declaration page (although I am a bit surprised that "Jewish Homeland" links there as opposed to "Land of Israel" or something else). I've been too busy trying to reason with an editor on another article, but I'll try to get to these soon. Thanks for the notice! Ramallite (talk) 18:49, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Guy Montag
I notice from Guy's "Talk" page that user klominius is now offering to look at pages Guy thinks need attention (ie act as a virtual sock puppet). While I think this is in the letter of the law wrt wikipedia articles it seems very contrary to the spirit of the whole endevou.

Can you add zionist terrorism to your watch page since they seem to be insistent on the insertion of a NPOV appology justifying the actions of Irgun in a way that is not mirrored for any other terrorist organisation.

Unbehagen 08:31, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I want to see a sensible discussion of "Zionist Terrorism" as well - but I don't see how that is possible as long as the world and Wikipedia accept the US governments definition of what organisations are terrorist and which are not. If we had our own definition, the whole discussion would be much more useful.
 * PalestineRemembered 21:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Sabri Jiryis
Template:Arabic had been on that page and I removed it and added it to the talk. You added it again after I had removed it which is how it got there again. Arabic belongs on the discussion page so that people who know Arabic can find it by where the template is linked but since it's not talking about a problem, per se, with the article like NPOV tags it does not get added the the main article space. So, the reason it seems that I added to the discussion before you added it to the article is because you added it twice :) ... in any case that's just the practice for templates like Arabic, Move, etc.  Any other questions feel free to ask. gren グレン 08:35, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Israeli Arab
Hi there

it looks to me, from some of your contributions I've seen around the place (and it's nice to see someone writing about Arab writers) that you might be able to help on this article, which is pretty inadequate and also in danger of becoming yet another POV battleground. Palmiro | Talk 16:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I didn't want to start a new section at the bottom, so I'll reply to your post (on my talk page) here. Basically, I want to help clean up the article, but don't have any hard facts with me, so I can only rely on information found on the internet (which is frequently false). This is why I merely copyedited the article so far. I think CBS is a pretty good resource though, they are the ultimate authority for these statistics AFAIK. -- Ynhockey 07:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Was it you who was looking for something ...
... like this? Marsden 20:36, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Bogdanov Affair
Hello, I just stumbled onto the Bogdanov page, now I have used up my "3RR"s for today, all 3 revert were of highly POV stuff by editors who had 0 previous editing on WP. My question to you is: is it possible to ban editors who have less than a certain number of edits to edit a page? If it is, then that perhaps should apply here? Regards, and good luck! -Huldra 15:03, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Dear Huldra: Indeed, under the recent injunction passed by the Arbitration Committee, accounts which edit only the Bogdanov Affair can be blocked as external participants rather than Wikipedia editors. I was hesitant to do so, but, well.... I think in this case, you are right. I will ban those users who were POV pushing; I greatly appreciate your assistance in this matter. Best regards, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) (e-mail) (cabal) 15:09, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
 * hi Huldra, i just want to say "thank you" from the only long-term "regular" wikipedia editor who is banned from editing the Bogdanov page. i too, was trying to hold back a flood of vandalism (designed to remove unflattering factual information) from the Bogdanov's, their sock-puppets, and their meat-puppets.  be careful that you don't fight off this vandalism too hard, it got me blocked twice (24 hours each) and eventually banned from editing the article.  i don't mind that so much now that the admins and arbcom seem to have figured out what i was up against.  i would recommend that, as long as someone else is also reverting the Bogdanov vandalism, that you should stay withing the 3RR.   good luck.   r b-j 19:39, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

category for deletion
I think we are making progress on Israeli Arab, even if most of the new additions are horribly POV they contain kernels of useful information.

In the meantime, if you have the time, you might or might not like to take a glance at this, which in my view sets a ghastly precedent for accurate and NPOV discussion of a whole range of topics:

Categories_for_deletion/Log/2005_October_13 cheers, Palmiro | Talk 15:53, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Copy edit and changes
Huldra: I welcome your help with copy edit and making things consistenet but please do not delete things that don't fit your POV. It is a tough subject, with many aspects and twists and we should styrive to include a complete picture.

So if you avoid too many deletes I think we can progress. When there were paragrphes that did not make sense and you pointed that out I delteed them my self. However those i did not delete is because I think they should be there so let's discuss prior to deleting them. I am sorry if it is frustrating to you as it is to me but that is part of the colaborative process. Thanks for your help. Zeq 14:42, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I think we should all take to heart Zeq's stricture against deleting things that go against our POV. I don't think you should let yourself be discouraged, and I agree that from a POV point of view there is much worse out there. At least this is blatant, honest to goodness POV that stands out a mile and is relatively unlikely to mislead anyone; that's a lot more than can be said for many other articles and aspects of the WP coverage of Israel/Palestine. Palmiro | Talk 17:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

POV battle
Israeli settlement. Marsden 05:11, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Good work on the Rashidi
Thanks for the work you're doing on the Rashidi. It is of true encyclopedia quality and very useful. (I'm reading Madawi Al-Rasheed's A History of Saudi Arabia right now and enjoying it.) Zora 08:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Huldra, that history of explorers is not very good, but it IS available through Questia (google for it). Questia costs about $15 a month, but it gives me access to thousands of books. It's not a complete library, it's not a good reading interface, but it is one way of working around lack of good library facilities. (I sometimes feel that I should be at the Library of Congress, or the Bodleian, or some such eminent place, in order to do proper research.) The physical copy of Doughty that you have -- is it the full version, with the introduction by Lawrence of Arabia, or is it the abridged version? I just spent way too much money on a pre-1923 full version so that I can put it through Distributed Proofreaders (google for it). If you have pre-1923 copies of the other explorers, I strongly strongly urge you to scan the books and put them through Distributed Proofreaders so that the books will be accessible to ALL scholars, as free e-books. If you want to learn more, you can email me at lofstrom"at"lava.net, and I'll explain further. In fact, I'm such a zealot that I'll explain further and further and further ,

 * As to the RfA -- I'd really rather not participate if I haven't personally interacted with the editor in question. I wouldn't feel competent to judge. But thanks for thinking of me. Zora 01:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Got your email, replied. Zealotry abounds. Zora 05:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Books wanted:
Lane's Manners and Morals of the Modern Egyptians

The Complete Shahnama, translated by the Warners. Only complete translation in English.

Aurel Stein, the expedition to Central Asia, dunno title, nine volumes -- they're up as images at a Japanese site, but I can't get them to send me the piccies for processing. I could just raid (download) the images, but I'm not sure I want to do that for nine huge volumes.

Lots of Victorian authors, but I'd have to check which novels have been done and which haven't. I'm working on Susan Warner and someone else is doing Hesba Stretton. We could use more Mrs. Wood, Mrs. Braddon, Letitia Landon, etc. The second-tier authors.

The reason that they generally have to be pre-1923 (or is it up to 1924 now?) is that this is usually the only way to be sure sure sure that DP doesn't run into any compilation copyrights. Frex, there's a Dover edition of Lane, and it's even a facsimile (which would ordinarily not be covered by copyright), but the introduction says that misspellings have been corrected. That's editorial intervention, that's copyrighted, so we can ONLY use an unedited version. The drill is that we make jpegs of the front pages of the books and email them to DP, which will give a clearance if they are OK to scan and aren't already in the queue to be done.

Sounds like you have a good edition of Doughty. I can see you're a bibliophile, alrighty. Zora 04:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Books!
Oh thank you Huldra. That is a lot of work. I haven't even clicked the link yet (I'm working on an article on the Islamic conquest of Iran).

The Aurel Stein books you have in your home town would be a great start IF you could get them approved and scan them. And the Letitia Landon -- that WOULD be a coup!

First step is getting a flatbed scanner. I have an Epson Perfection. They have very good ratings for mechanical durability, but dealing with the software is something else. When I upgraded from Win98 to WinXP, it took me weeks and lots of frantic posts on various newsgroups and forums to figure out exactly how to upgrade the scanner software. But if you're buying new, that may not be a problem.

Second step is getting OCR software. People at DP mostly use Abbyy Finereader, which costs about $150. Abbyy has a very useful setting which allows you to run the scanner on automatic. You set a time delay just long enough for you to pick the book up, turn the page, and plop the book down again. Leave the lid of the scanner open and turn your head way when the light flashes. You can do a 300 page book in a couple of hours once you get into the swing of it.

Ah, but first -- before you scan, check to make sure that no one else is working on the book and that there will be no copyright problems. Make JPEGS of the front page, the back of the front page, and anything else that will help establish date, publisher, all that useful stuff. Then follow the steps at this URL to upload the JPEGs and get permission to scan. That will usually come in a few days.

When you've got the permission, then you can scan and upload the project. The folks at DP are incredibly bright and helpful and nice. It's very different from Wikipedia. Very few nuts. Go on the forums to ask for help, or email me. I think there might be a Norwegian team (I know we've done a few Norwegian books) but I can't find it.

I hope this doesn't scare you off. It's a great project, it works, we've done almost 8,000 books now, and if you're feeling down, proofing just a few pages will often cheer you up. Doing something USEFUL.

Actually, even if you don't have the money or the time to do this, just cheerleading for you renews my determination to scan the dozens of books I have waiting. Thanks. Zora 23:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Huldra, you do not have to do any proofreading or copyediting to become a content provider. You can just upload the scans to DP and everyone else will take care of everything.

 * We run a web-based proofreading program. Each proofreader, or formatter, picks a book to work on and can do as little as one page before stopping or switching to another book. When you request a page, what you will see is the scanned image and the OCRed text next to it. You correct the OCR to match the image. That's all. We run books through four rounds -- two of proofreading, to catch OCR errors, and two of formatting, to turn them into proper ebooks. Then the post-processor combines all the separate page files, checks them for consistency, and posts the book to the Gutenberg library.

 * People tend to specialize in one part of the process. If you like being a content provider, that's all you have to do. It is often useful if the content provider is ALSO the project manager and the post-processor, so that the paper copy of the book is available if there are any problems with the images. But this is not at all necessary or required.

 * I'd suggest that you join DP, or DP-EU, proof a few pages, and get a feel for the whole process.

 * You may also want to look at what's already available as ebooks. Frex, you can get Burckhardt (an Arabian traveler whom you may not have read) free as an ebook. It is a pain to read for hours on a computer if you don't have to. People use tablet computers or PDAs or specialized ebook readers for ebooks. I use an old black-and-white Sony Clie PDA.

You can look for ebooks at or go to blackmask.com and look for pleasure reading. All of it free! Doesn't take up any space! Doesn't have to be dusted! You can carry it in your purse and read at odd moments, waiting in line, etc.

 * Phew, I really am a zealot. Hope I haven't put you off. Looking forward to reading Palgrave and Stein. Zora 01:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Reply from Saxet
SlimVirgin is not only very smart, she's also fast. ;-) Yeah, being on the same side as Zeq feels like you're on a date with one of the Bush twins. Or at least I think the feeling would be similar. I've noticed various strategies/methods being used here on WP, and right now I feel that it would take a lot to surprise me. Hela projektet är aningen tvivelaktigt. I've seen your comments and edits though, and if you say Ramallite is ok, I'll trust you. Which means the blame will fall entirely on you when it turns out that he is in fact the uncle of Donald Rumsfeld's nephew. :-) Cheers. --saxet 01:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

hi Huldra, could you ...
... spend another of today's allocation of reverts on Bogdanov Affair? sorry to bother you but it looks like Igor has slipped another in when no one was watching. Thanks for reading this, in any case. r b-j 00:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

answer to your question
There are 3 answers to your question:

1.)wikimarkup works in edit summeries 2.)become an andmin and use the rollback button 3.)see the last answer to Help_desk.

I hope that helps Geni 14:05, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

actually, I wasn't being serious
it was just that you had made a typo: where you clearly meant to say that you had made inappropriate elements "invisible" (can't be seen) you said you had made them "invincible" (can't be defeated) and when I noticed it it tickled my fancy... Palmiro | Talk 14:18, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that would worry anybody, although he may have taken comfort from the fact that you weren't (I assume) actually related to him! Palmiro | Talk 15:01, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm from Ireland. Did your ancestors abduct some Irish virgins back in the good old days ;)?Palmiro | Talk

Actually, some of my forebears were sailors as well, though I don't know if any of them got to Scandinavia either. Yes, Beit Jabri is still going strong, my personal favourite is the kishke, though it's getting into the season for eating fatte as well (have you ever spent a winter here? I've never thought of Syria as a warm country since). Don't know about the internet cafe by Merje, there are loads of them around now, all over the city. Where did you live, Bab Touma? As for the world's worst red wine, if you mean Nectar, yes, they still make it, it still has the unique bouquet of elderly cheese. And to make matters worse, you can't get Kefraya any more, since cross-border traffic is slightly more, let's say, complicated in the last few months, or so it appears. However, Rayyan Araq will solve all problems if applied in suitable quantities. Are you thinking of coming back any time? Palmiro | Talk 18:47, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
I wanted to thank you for supporting my RfA and for keeping tally and helping out, I greatly appreciate it! Ramallite (talk) 03:57, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I do have the Palgrave -- don't scan it!
I had completely forgotten that I had ordered an expensive 1908 edition of Palgrave from a British bookstore. It arrived. I will scan it, so you don't have to do so.

ABEbooks is just too tempting, like online crack. Zora 20:53, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Israeli Arab - again
I've added a lot of information, primarily historical, to the article in order to fill some of the glaring gaps. This includes some coverage of the land issue but nothing like enough. Do you think you might be able to try and add to it? Zeq seems to be somewhat subdued, so now might be the time! Palmiro | [[User talk:Palmiro|Talk]] 00:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

You are correct
Sorry, you are correct, I should have posted to your talk page as well. Regards, Jayjg (talk) 21:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Your query
Hi Huldra, regarding your query about the IP address/Marsden, that IP address is Marsden's, and so you ought to look at Marsden's contributions, not only the IPs, to see evidence of his harassment of, and personal attacks on, Jayjg (indeed, he stated clearly it was why he was at Wikipedia), and several others. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:36, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

What is this trying to say and is not already said elsewhere in the article ?
"The Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and the outbreak of the first Palestinian Intifada in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip were defining moments for it, helping form the identity many (but by no means all) of its members adopt as being part of the Palestinian people yet part of the Israeli state.The political face of the Israeli Arab community has continued to change"

Leninist greetings
So who's Wikistalking who at the moment ;) ? I suddenly see Huldra's name all over my watchlist...

Regarding the kid in Beirut, I don't know off the top of my head. It sounds like the sort of thing that might be subject to duty, but I don't really know. I have to phone somebody in Beirut on Monday, and if I remember I'll ask her if she knows. Really busy now, moving house and snowed under with work, and no time and less patience for Wikipedia. Palmiro | Talk 14:50, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, in any case, I'm hardly going to object to being followed around by glamorous Scandinavian women. Actually, once in real life I was called a "tankie", which is apparently a Trotskyist term of abuse for Stalinists (think Prague 1968...), so it's been worse! Actually Zeq doesn't particularly bother me, though he certainly does put me off editing, but this and this is a bit hard to take.

 * Incidentally, I count this as my ninth house move since the 23rd of April this year (it's a long story, or several long stories, to do with Syrian workers coming back from Lebanon, French women being untrustworthy, jobs in Beirut, the ramifications of the Iraq war on the Damascus property market, and the scumbaggish nature of Damascus estate agents...). Palmiro | Talk 15:27, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I have just acquired some Lebanese red wine. Have a (virtual) glass on me! Palmiro | Talk 16:01, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Forgot to ring the woman today, but will try tomorrow and hopefully reember your young friend. Palmiro | Talk 17:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Requests for adminship
Thanks for the note about Ramallite's admin vote. Unfortunately I was away from Wikipedia at the time and was not able to participate, but I'm certainly happy with the result! It's well deserved. Brian Tvedt 14:04, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Duplicate information
Thank you for reverting vandalism on. The fact is that you also restored a whole bunch of duplicate information which was previously removed. The history listing is somewhat misleading in this case. Please display the two vesions side by side and you'll see that almost all the article's content IS duplicated! --Smiley77 09:19, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Please do not restore deleted personal attacks
Marsden's comment was rightly removed as a personal attack. Please do not restore it, it's disruptive. FeloniousMonk 08:09, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

No personal attakcs
I left a comment for you here, Slrubenstein  |  Talk 19:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Article for deletion vote
Thought you might be interested in this: Marsden 17:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

testing
Personal attacks against M:
 * and: ..."rewarded" with 15 min. block..thanks to intervention from SV. It has also been claimed that the user (J.McW) is a sockpuppet ..but that has never been checked (to my knowledge).

Wikistalking?

Did he really say that? The statement: "I've decided that I'll occasionally participate in Wikipedia, but only for the purpose of countering the Hasbara Mafia. At least for as long as I consider their POV-pushing to be a major problem here" :

becomes: "[he]...has pretty much stated that his only purpose for staying on Wikipedia these days is to revert me, which is inappropriate behaviour for an editor. (JMc)

.....editiors "fertilizing the ground": ("out of order"...) Involving others:

the nadir: Talk:Israeli-occupied territories:

"harvest" time:

.....Pos. view ..by editors with other points of view...............: ..he was wished welcome on 22 Aug by an editor who had "noticed high quality of your contributions".  "I'm impressed, nice work..."

Back?
Are you back? Palmiro | Talk 16:55, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Chateau Musar, hah? You're treating yourself well! I certainly noticed that you were gone, and I hope you'll hang around this time. Look at it this way, there has been a considerable improvement in treatment of the Middle East on Wikipedia even while I've been active: the articles on Palestinian territories, 1948 Arab-Israeli War and Palestinian exodus have been improved significantly, we actually have an article entitled Israeli-occupied territories, and coverage of Syria and Lebanon is improving slowly but surely. Someone else who has a strong understanding of the region is always badly needed. In particular, Israeli Arab is still a mess, for obvious reasons, and I'm not forgetting that you had all sorts of plans to improve it, I seem to recall you talking about Sabri Jiryis inter alia.

 * Anyway, good to see you back and I hope you stick around. Palmiro | Talk 18:01, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Sent you a mail. Palmiro | Talk 22:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

A little dissent and discontent
From the Wikipedia Review:
 * 1) http://wikipediareview.proboards78.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1138416325 Guide to becoming an administrator on Wikipedia]
 * 2) http://wikipediareview.proboards78.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1136740522 The Wikipedia inner circle]

Nice pic: Libertarian and intellectual giant Jimbo with a couple of Bomis babes on a yacht somewhere.

Good reading: Wikiwatch by librarian Matthew White and User:Lir’s essay ’’A Criticism of the Wikipedia’’. Hang in there. 64.34.193.106 11:56, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Arbcom etc
Well, I have made no edits on the 48 War article. Not one. I am still trying to find the time (and overcome my deep distaste for these rows) to make a statement on the thing, but as I have to go to Beirut tomorrow and won't be back til Saturday, it won;t be for a while.

Got a taxi this morning, and the taxi-driver (clearly a fairly religious Muslim) launched into a discourse on religious tolerance in Syria, how there was no distinction between Christians and Muslims, and anyone trying to sow such distinctions would be quickly dealt with. I quite appreciated it, given the times that are in it... I actually saw signs up on a couple of shops saying "So sorry, but we do not accept the Danish patrons". As one of my teachers said, vive Huntingdon... (incidentally, Huntngdon's acolytes on this site seem to be ever more active, take a look at Dhimmi or Bat Ye'or to see what I mean, not to mention Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis which treats the ravings of the latter as if they were descriptions of matters of fact... Palmiro | Talk 11:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow. That is spectacular apologetics. Obviously NPOV applies in dramatically different ways in different areas. Perhaps you are right that there is not much point continuing with this lark. Anyway, it appears Irish people are still personae gratae thanks to our great anti-imperialist struggle, praise be to God. OK, better head to the taxi station. All the best, Palmiro | Talk 11:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Back from Beirut, worn out and pissed off for reasons that have nothing to do with Wikipedia... anyway, have made a contribution to the arbcom thingie, on the main page, evidence and workshop pages. Palmiro | Talk 15:30, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead
By all means.. go ahead and place it on your user/talk page. It's alright if you hadn't got used to the templates yet. You know where to reach me if you need help. :-D — M o e   ε  23:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Mv from user-page
I need some help with editing: the details are at Talk:Rulers of Pate. Basically: I need some help inserting some new inf. into an article (Rulers of Pate) which has a format that I simply do not understand. Thank you for your attention. Huldra 00:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Hi! I checked out the pages and it looks like all you need to do is follow the pattern for the chart. When I am editing someone else's chart or table, I look at the other rows as examples. However, since it's just a list of the rulers and not their actions, you should only include the names and terms of the rulers, and create brief new articles, called stubs with the more detailed info. Is that enough help for you? Jimbo (not THE Jimbo) 02:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, I added in your changes, but not the "Mfalume" that most of the other rulers had at the end of their names. You seem to be more of an expert than I, so have at it. Don't forget about making stubs for those two rulers! Also, I changed your little dot line to a horizontal rule for simplicity's sake. Jimbo (not THE Jimbo) 02:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

You are most welcome
Spring Bloom is in full. last weekend we went to the beach but water is a bit too cold. Within weeks we will be able to sweam in the sea again. Zeq 08:35, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Dahab: Brings out such good memories.

Nurve ends: There are treatments in biofeedback that improve blood circulation. Look up a syndrom called Raynaud's phenomenon or Raynaud's syndrom ( I will not get into the diffrences) but in any case the non medication treatment for such a problem is something you should look up. This is not a mediacl advice just a suggestion of issues you should look up and consult your physician. Wikipedia articles on the subject are poor but I don't have the time to edit them. Zeq 09:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

a bit better Raynaud's disease. Again I suggesting you look up the non-mediaction, non-surgical treatment for that problem. It is not what you desribe but the treatment may be helpfull. Zeq 09:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

look for a special type of biofeedabck that is used for Raynauds. Also any technique such as mediataion / breathing that affects the simpatetic nurve system and open up blood vessels in the extrmities should be helpfull. Zeq 14:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Hasan Salama & Ali Hassan Salameh
Thanks for your note Huldra. I've found that Hasan Salama is Hassan Salameh and the father of Ali Hassan Salameh. I've updated both pages and have added some images. Best, --Ian Pitchford 18:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Terror
Huldra,

I will not go into lengthy debate on this but it is simple:

"Terrorism" is any action designed to harm or to target civilian population.

It does not matter who does it or what his cause was.

If you father targeted civilians he is a terrorist. If you father targeted occupation forces he is a freedom fighter.

Hope it is clear. Zeq 09:44, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

PS, a resitance fighter, bombing a Geramn arms truck and in the process destroying a pollish civilian village is still a freedom fighter. The issue is who was the inteneded target.

Huldra,

Nothing in life is "black and white" there are shades of gray. But there are things that are simple: The presence of civilians is not a "sheild". See Geneva conventions. Military comander must take all steps to avoid/minimize civilians from being harmed. But if a military target is hiding inside a passanger ferry or inside a densly poulated Gaza building and ther is no other way to destroy the military target. well according to laws of war it is not a war crime as long as the target was a military one. I satnd by the definition of terror. Zeq 10:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Huldra,

Much of what Zarkawii does can be clasified as Gurrelia war fare not as terror but some is clearly terror. The Nazis called gurrila = terror, but we don't use them as a yard stick. Zeq 13:35, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Informats, spys, undercover agents, anyone who does not ware uniform but is taking part in military activity or directly helping the military effort those are all a valid target according to Geneva convention. Zeq 14:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Lies about intended targets
In the 1970 Samir Kuntar attacked a family in Naharia and also killed a policemen that tried to stop him.

This is described by Hizbulla web site as "attack on a military base in which one soldier was killed"

The claim that suicide bombers target soldeirs is a lie. Resturants, Hotels are places that families are in.

Market, buses are places where the poor, elderly usually buy or travel.

On occuation, there are buses (civilian buses) that carry soldiers. The Geneva convention is clearabout that as well:

Any soldier who is not on active duty, even traveling to or from his base to start or after his duty is considered a protected person (civilian). Zeq 11:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

 * You are right it was a stupid headline. It is a lie that I heared repeated so many times from the same direction that i was angry. I have seen what suicide bombings of civilians look like and I later heared the descriptionof how it was a military target because there was one soldier on the bus or how mothers of soldiers are also military target - There is even a fatwa saying all jews are military targets. Zeq 14:23, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

why not ?
http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=43167

Palgrave
No, I haven't finished reading Palgrave. I got a third of the way through and stalled out. I think I have attention deficit disorder. Right now I am cutting out some brocade for pillows, and alternating that with checking Wikipedia, reading a New York Times article, and reading a book on the political situation in Iran, online. Not to mention interspersing household duties. Not to mention the stack of half-read books by my bed. And half-sewn projects. And .... AAARGH! Well, at least I'm not bored.

Yes, I have the 1908 edition. Yes, it has the map. Perhaps I should just scan it and upload it to Wikipedia. It's a 1908 book, so there would be no copyright problems. I'll let you know when it's done.

I'm glad you reminded me of the Palgrave. It's well-written and an enjoyable read. Also a useful antidote to Saudi propaganda. Zora 22:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I haven't read the Palgrave article. Will check. As for the spelling in the Jedda(h) article -- that's a Salafi imposing Salafi spelling. Their "thing" is exact transliteration from the Arabic, which, as we know, is the language of God. So, they put h's on the ends of words, and they always double a vowel if it's a long vowel, instead of using a macron. Of course, this is completely nuts if it's a reference to a published work which uses non-Salafi spelling. Zora 00:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, that only took me an hour and a half :/ Article is rewritten and the map is uploaded, in a very large high-quality jpeg that you may download and print out and enjoy. There's a bit of a wobbly break where I had to merge two scans (my Photoshop skills are still minimal) but I think the map is still usable. Zora 02:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Machsom Watch
Is there any reason why you want to keep The Irish Times quote in the article? Sort of a friendly request?:)) On the article's talk page, I have explained the reasons why this quote cannot be included in its current form. Cheers, Pecher Talk 16:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Huldra, that's pretty much what I'm saying. The first part of the sentence from The Irish Times is a response to the charge that the IDF does not hear what Machsom Watch says; the second part is a statement that the IDF devotes attention to the sensitivity of soldiers, i.e. that the IDF is not as bad as Machsom Watch says it is. The root cause of the dispute is ambiguous writing of the journalist in the first hand: the original sentence implies connection without establishing one. It would be much clearer if the sentence read something like: "Responding to Machsom Watch's charges that its reports pass unnoticed by the IDF, the army says that it listens to Machsom Watch. In addition, the IDF holds training to ensure respectful behaviour by soldiers." Best, Pecher Talk 21:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You're right and that's th whole point: we need not transport the source's ambiguity to the Wikipedia, which is supposed to be clear and unambiguous. Pecher Talk 22:26, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Reverting
Please stop the mindless reverting. There's no support for your position at Israeli-occupied territories, so the reverting is simply disruptive. As for Ben Dunkelman, the writing has to be in correct English, we're not allowed to simply plagiarize phrases from the internet, and we have to be sure of the sources we're using. Please discuss these issues on talk rather than reverting to versions that contain errors. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 09:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Stop quoting my messages to you back word for word. It's childish. As for your plagiarism, I've put an example of it on the talk page. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I have no idea what you're talking about. You called the plagiarism policy a "new-found policy." I pointed out that you know it's not new, because I've asked you before not to use material word-for-word without attribution. You denied you had done this. So I gave you diffs. Now you're leaving me messages using exactly the same words that I've used, which is what you do in articles. Please understand that none of this inspires confidence in your editing, and dealing with it is time-consuming, for you too. Please start editing in accordance with the policies: WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:CITE. Use good sources and stick very closely to what they say with attribution. Don't add your own spin or your own flowery language, don't copy other people's prose, give full citations, and when someone copy edits your English, please don't revert. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Mate, take some advice. When you use someone else's words, attribute them. If you don't, you're going to get your arse kicked out of this encyclopaedia and not one tear shed for you. If someone points out similarities between your writing and someone else's, but they are misguided, here's a further piece of advice: say thank you, use the source as attribution and move on without making a fight out of it. And please try to treat SlimVirgin decently. She might differ in her opinions from you but we are all friends here. Grace Note 02:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * So, I repeat my question: did you or didn´t you think that I had added the words  "deeply attached to his Jewish roots"? It should be a very easy question to answer. And I´m sorry, but it is not possible to ask this question without quoting you! As for the al-Hamad story, I will reply on Dunkelmans talk-page, (as it was raised there) about my "plagiarism". The facts remain: I had liftet nothing from the internet to the Ben Dunkelman article. (That other editors had done so before me is hardly my fault.) And everything I added to the article was sourced in the book I gave references to. That I might not have given references in the right format inside the article: ah, well: that is a charge which is probably true. But I did give a reference at the end of the article to the book I used. Regards, Huldra 02:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Huldra, do not ever again change another editor's signature. As for your plagiarism, I gave a very clear example of you lifting prose from a NYT article and not attributing it. Enough already. You're well of order now. SlimVirgin <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 04:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

<copied from SlimVirgins talkpage:>

sorry about that
I did not understand you comment on my talk-page at all, but then I saw your edit here and understood. I can assure you that I ofcourse did not wanted to cut out your signature from your own comment! Why on earth should I want do such a thing? My mistake, completely, and I am sorry for that. I have no idea as to how it happened: I was just trying to copy the time from those messages, and your signature must have been cut by accidente.

As for my alleged plagiarism, you gave an example of me lifting 3 words(!) 6 months(!) ago from a NYT article and only giving the ref. on the talk-page of the article(!). Regards, Huldra 04:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I said enough. Stop posting to my talk page. You've been asked several times to clarify your source material on Ben Dunkelman. Just clarify it on that talk page (not mine) and stop reverting copy edits, then there will be no further problem. I've had enough of your snide remarks. SlimVirgin <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 04:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

testing
ok, I´m testing out new material here: newstuff

Newstuff
I believe that all you need to do is edit User:Huldra\Newstuff to create the article in your name space to allow you to work on it. Vegaswikian 00:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The talk page should be moved now. Vegaswikian 01:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Re: Plagiarism
I've said all I have to say about the matter. If you choose not to heed my well-intentioned advice, it's your lookout. Grace Note 06:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Intersting material
It is intersting. I have seen it before.

All thes attempts to judge in 2006 terms events tha occured in 1948 will not get very far.

Why are you so bothered by that and don't care as much about what is going on in Africa in 2006 ?

Zeq 19:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Ben Dunkelman
What on earth are you talking about? I've never reverted you on Ben Dunkelman; I've only made one tiny edit there, to fix a link. I'd appreciate it if you would avoid making false accusations, and am going to insist that you refrain from violations of WP:CIVIL (e.g. "our twins"). Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 19:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Huldra, thanks for your apology, but why are you telling me all about SlimVirgin's actions? Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 02:45, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Please reconsdier your vote
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Israeli_Arab_transference_from_Israel

look up Kahnae and Kach party that is the right place to discuss the transfer idea. Zeq 19:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you!
Thanks very much for the barnstar, which I have now added to my user page. Got to go now, I have wasted far too much time on Wikipedia already today and have work to do... Palmiro | Talk 16:03, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Re:IDF
Yes, Hativa Sheva = 7th Brigade. Please don't move the article 7th Brigade though, but instead make a redirect if you will. Sheva' Brigade would be a name contranry to the MOS's guidelines.

As for the library thing, I'm not sure I have the time nowadays (as you probably know, I'm in the IDF) because Petah Tikva libraries are very poor and the closest decent one is in Tel Aviv. Not sure I want to go there to check out some small facts, although maybe another Israeli user will. Try User:MathKnight.

-- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 10:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

article
You might be interested to contribute here User:KimvdLinde/Israeli_apartheid, I am not yet done, and I need to find several of the books in the library, but I think a good article dealing with thye opinion of scholars is needed. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 06:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No sweat, the books are important as well. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 07:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

mediation
Huldra,

This is simpe, disambiguation. no need for you to edit war over it. do you want us to find a mediator that would help us through this ? Zeq 06:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

yes. The solution can be a simple disambiguation page. Please file for mediation or look for an informal mediator. Best, Zeq 07:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

voted
Tnx for alerting me. Zeq 20:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Back? I don't think so!
Actually, I couldn't help taking a look to see how Wikipedia was handling the current attack on Lebanon, and was just as appalled as I had expected to be (a whole paragraph in the Lebanon article dedicated to this one affair, coverage in a special article that gives no notice to Lebanese perspectives), but I also came across the Deir Yassin outrage. I must admit I was surprised by the shamelessness of it. All the more reason not to bother with the whole enterprise, I suppose! Palmiro | Talk 13:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Libya
Please feel free to evaluate the Libya article which has become a 'Featured Article Candidate' and write you support or opposition on Featured article candidates. Hopefully Libya will become only the second African country to be featured on Wikipedia. Thanks --User:Jaw101ie 12:30, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

PalestineFacts
Hello, You added the Category Encyclopedia for this article. Palestine facts is NOT. Do you agree ? Trade2tradewell 20:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

copyright infringement

 * For something to be copyright infringement, it does not have to come from an electric source, per your above statement, "pain-stakeingly copied it myself from the book" goes to show that it is a violation of someone else's copyright. I will copy this also to your talk page.  --Gay Cdn  (talk) (email) (Contr.) 19:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

good faith edits on the Israel Lobby
Thanks for the explanation. Precis 21:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Deir Yassin massacre
Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Requests for arbitration/Deir Yassin massacre. Please add evidence to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Deir Yassin massacre/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Deir Yassin massacre/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, --Tony Sidaway 13:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Maraba Coffee
Hello! As you're a Wikipedian interested in African topics, I'm writing to notify you that the Maraba Coffee article is now a 'Featured Article Candidate'. Please feel free to evaluate the article and write your support or opposition at Featured article candidates. Thanks — SteveRwanda 15:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Pisgat Ze'ev
I see your latest transgression on this page (adding the Palestinian geo-stub template) has actually stuck. Amazing; allow me to say "mazeltov"! Now, I'm just wondering: if you, or I, or someone else, were to change the description of this place to a its proper name, a settlement (rather than that odious euphemism, "neighborhood"), how long do you figure it would be before someone (like, maybe, SV?) comes along and reverts it? Just curious. +ILike2BeAnonymous 21:04, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Moshe Dayan
Words of Moshe Dayan are still in wikipedia in article Six-Day War (after 56 hours) !! First time they have deleted words after only 8.5 hours but now ..... About other thing yes I know Israel war project if they loose war against arabs, but do you know what has Nixon been saying about Israel future ? --rjecina 16:40, 3 october 2006

war editing on kanfani article
Please stop your reverts of sourced material explaining Israel's position for possible assassination. It's extreme POV pushing. See talk page. If he wasn't assassinated, then I agree this is not the place, but the reader needs the full picture. Thank you. Amoruso 08:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello, I have replied on the Kanafani talk-page. Huldra 09:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * ok, thanks, I hope you realise that by mentioning Israel's possible involvement, one has to mentions Israel's view on the organization he was affiliated with. Amoruso 09:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Israeli apartheid
I was a little supprised by | this edit of yours‚ and I wondered if you are familiar with: Regards, Huldra 20:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid
 * Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid/Evidence
 * Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid/Workshop
 * Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid/Proposed decision
 * Yes, that decision indicates that discussion should take place on Central discussions/Apartheid, to which I have just posted a new question regarding this article. -- Beland 22:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Deir Yassin massacre
This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above.

Guy Montag is banned from articles which relate to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Guy Montag's Probation under the terms of Requests_for_arbitration/Yuber is extended to include one year from the final date of this decision. KimvdLinde and other administrators are encouraged to effectively enforce Guy Montag's Probation in appropriate circumstances. Should Guy Montag violate any ban imposed by this decision he may be blocked for an appropriate period. All blocks are to be logged at Requests for arbitration/Deir Yassin massacre.

For the Arbitration Committee. Arbitration Committee Clerk, FloNight 00:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

False 3RR notice
Dear Amo; I´m afraid I will report you for breaking 3RR on Levinger unless you self-revert (in the very near future). Regards, Huldra 02:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm afraid 3RR doesn't apply here because of WP:BLP you accused him of underground status with no refs. Amoruso 02:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

You totally misread that
I was talking about this ban, not that one when I was saying "consensus" etc. Amoruso 17:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Finklestien
Have your say on Fink's say about Joan Peter's say! Ta! frummer 08:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar thanks
Much appreciated Huldra. It made my day more cheerful, especially that it coincided with the beginning of my holiday vacations. :D By the way, I'll be going through your articles for Arabic. Also, you know where to find me if you ever need my help. :) Thank you, and all the best. ← <font color="DimGray">A NAS ''' <font size="-3"><font color="DodgerBlue">Talk? 10:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Just a quick side note; you might wanna archive your talk page. :) ← <font color="DimGray">A NAS ''' <font size="-3"><font color="DodgerBlue">Talk? 10:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

List of Arabs?
I'm on it. I'll take care of the mayors and amirs in both lists in my free time. Concerning the unavailing list of Arabs, well, I think working on this is a complete waste of time. Categories can be much easier to use. But it seems similar lists exist for almost every country, or even city and state. Anyways, it's not my thing. I wish you an equally happy holiday as well. :) ← <font color="DimGray">A NAS ''' <font size="-3"><font color="DodgerBlue">Talk? 12:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Deir al-Asad
A good edit (as always) Ya Huldra. Shukran, Abu ali 14:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

No Problem
Someone has to keep watch of these things at this time of night. Cheers. <font color="Red">Canadian -<font color="Black">Bacon 07:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The Serial Vandal
Thanks Huldra. By my count, this is the sixteenth userid set up by this vandal in order to abuse me; s/he has also posted such abuse from several anonymous IPs in California, Hungary and Israel. It appears impossible to put a permanent block on this character, whose attacks are becoming ever more obsessive and nasty. Do you have any suggestions? --RolandR 14:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

title: User talk:Huldra/Archive 1


text:
Guyanese literature

Guyanese literature covers works including novels, poetry, plays and others written by people born or strongly-affiliated with Guyana. Formerly British Guiana, British language and style has an enduring impact on the writings from Guyana, which are done in English language and utilizing Guyanese Creole. Emigration has contributed to a large body of work relating the Guyanese diaspora experience.

European perspective
The first book written on Guyana, by Sir Walter Raleigh in the 16th century, was The Discoverie of the Large, Rich, and Beautiful Empyre of Guiana (With a Relation of the Great and Golden Citie of Manoa (Which the Spanyards call El Dorado) and of the Provinces of Emeria, Aromaia, Amapaia, and Other Countries, with Their Riulers, Adjoyning (Robert Robinson: London, 1596). Many travelogues have been published by explorers or missionaries from Europe. The sparsely populated, pristine hinterlands of Guyana continue to be a subject of interest for contemporary Guyanese literature – this setting can be traced to one of the nation's earliest novels, In Guiana Wilds: A Study Of Two Women (1899), by James Rodway.

Guyanese voice
Guyana's history has been substantially shaped by immigration, and writings often address the topics of slavery and indenture, as well as reflecting the culture of the various immigrant groups. One of the earliest and most notable Guyanese authors was Edgar Mittelholzer, author of Corentyne Thunder (1941). His works often deal with issues of interracial relations, particularly the strain between European and non-European Guyanese. Kyk-Over-Al literary journal, published in 1945 and edited by A. J. Seymour, collected poetry and other works from Guyana and the West Indies. A major contributor, Martin Carter, is considered Guyana's greatest poet. Mid-20th century, poetry served as a medium to express the Guyanese identity, in light of independence from British colonial rule and creating a style unique to the country.

The political climate of the mid-20th century of anti-colonial and Proletariat attitudes fostered interest in socialism, and subsequently became a matter written about in the Guyanese context. Socialist literature was acquired and disseminated by the People's Progressive Party, leading to legislature to pass an Undesirable Publications Ordinance to ban such books. Political activists at the time, such as Eusi Kwayana, Cheddi and Janet Jagan, taught informal classes among estate laborers, expanding education and political ideology.

Historian and intellectual Walter Rodney is most widely regarded for his book How Europe Underdeveloped Africa (1972). Travelling and teaching widely, he was a proponent of Pan-Africanism and a supporter of the downtrodden. Rodney returned to Guyana in 1974 and was active in the opposition movement, leading to his assassination in 1980. Rodney was involved with the New World Group, which was a collection of Guyanese academics notable for producing the New World Quarterly, a journal published from 1963 to 1972. New World Quarterly was an outlet for academics within the Caribbean to examine development, socialism, and other regional issues, but also the "original publication of poems, reviews and commentaries".

During his presidency, Forbes Burnham promoted literature and art in Guyana, initiating the 1972 Caribbean Festival of Arts, which showcased the arts coming from the Caribbean.

Michael Abbensetts was a noted playwright of works for the stage and television in the UK, whose work included the drama series—Empire Road, which BBC TV aired from 1978 to 1979.

Amerindian influence and language
The Indigenous peoples in Guyana did not use written language at the advent of their interaction with the early European explorers, nonetheless, their oral traditions and culture have been documented to varying degrees since that time and continue to have a presence in contemporary Guyanese literature. Older accounts tend to betray the nature of the author's relation to the Amerindians, such as missionaries reframing indigenous spirituality to a Christian context or colonial authorities, however the accounts themselves are of great historical value. W. H. Brett and Walter Roth wrote significantly on their experiences with various Amerindian tribes in the late 1800s to early 1900s.

Indigenous languages have been in decline in favor of English (as well as Guyanese Creole or Portuguese), but revival efforts have included establishing a written standard as well as compiling dictionaries. The government, the bureau of Amerindian affairs, the University of Guyana, as well as various non-government organizations have been involved in language preservation. Christian missionary work has led to bible translations in various Amerindian languages.

Indian influence
The descendants of indentured Indians have also made important contributions to Guyanese literature. Significant writers include Joseph Rahomon and Shana Yardan.

Literature awards
The Guyana Prizes for Literature were founded by President Desmond Hoyte in 1987, with a view to promoting the development of local literature. Prizes are awarded biennially in categories including best book of fiction, best first book of fiction, best book of poems, best first book of poems, and best play. The Guyana Prizes are managed by a committee consisting of a number of university personnel, and the chief librarian of the Guyana National Library.

The prize returned in 2023 after a seven-year hiatus.

Winners have included, Wilson Harris, Fred D'Aguiar, David Dabydeen, Roy A.K. Heath, D. Gokarran Sukhdeo, Pauline Melville, Ian McDonald, Cyril Dabydeen and Ruel Johnson.

Guyana Poetry Prize
Notable winners include Fred D'Aguiar, Grace Nichols, Ian McDonald.

Guyana Prize for Caribbean Literature
In 2010, the government of Guyana provided funds to the Management Committee of the Guyana Prize for the first Guyana Prize for Literature Caribbean Award, in the categories of fiction, poetry and drama, with published books by citizens of Caribbean countries (CARICOM States, the Commonwealth Caribbean, the Netherlands Antilles) being eligible.

Other
The Wordsworth McAndrew Award, based in New York, awards literary and other achievements relating to Guyanese culture.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Guyanese literature


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User talk:Lucky sailorusn

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User talk:Frindly

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User talk:Chr0n0ss

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Royal West Academy

Royal West Academy (commonly referred to as Royal West or RWA; Académie Royal West) is a public alternative anglophone secondary school in Montreal West, Quebec. Royal West has limited enrollment, and prospective students are only admitted after an entrance examination and interview. Royal West Academy is part of the English Montreal School Board (EMSB).

History
The grounds where Royal West is now located once belong to the Aberdeen School of Coteau Saint-Pierre, founded in 1894. It was renamed Montreal West High School in 1921. Ten years later, in 1931, the building was demolished and a larger building was built in its place. Between 1951 and 1959 an extension to the main structure was built to make way for an elementary school. The extension is referred to as the west wing.

In 1980, the elementary school was closed because of poor enrollment. The Royal Vale elementary school moved in, but was closed as well. In 1983, the Royal Vale French immersion high school and Montreal West High School merged to form Royal West Academy.

Until 1998 the school was within the Protestant School Board of Greater Montreal.

Admission process
The EMSB allows Royal West to choose the first 180 students who score the highest points on the entrance exams held, usually, in October. The first 75-80 students with the highest grades get an "early acceptance"; the next 300 are interviewed, where they choose the next 110 that get to attend the following school year. Royal West has also placed high in scholastic math competitions, including its rank of first in Quebec in 2006.

Environment Committee
Royal West Academy's Environment Committee is made up of students in grades 8 through to 11 who share the common goal of protecting our natural environment. The committee holds a variety of events throughout the school year to raise awareness of numerous environmental issues during waste reduction week and earth week.

Notable graduates

 * Anthony Cheung, Hong Kong politician and academic
 * Tim Fletcher of The Stills, musician
 * Adam Gollner, author
 * Dan Guterman, Brazilian-Canadian producer, staff writer, The Colbert Report
 * Karl R. Hearne, film director
 * Anna Hopkins, television actress
 * Laurin Liu, politician, former NDP MP
 * Parker Mitchell, co-CEO and co-Founder of Engineers Without Borders Canada
 * Robert Naylor, film and television actor
 * Nick Nemeroff, comedian, Juno award nominee
 * Conrad Pla, Spanish-Canadian television actor
 * Jacob Tierney, actor
 * Kaya Turski, freestyle skier, Winter X Games gold medallist
 * Nik Witkowski, rugby centre for Canada national rugby union team & Coventry R.F.C., UK
 * Dorothy Yeats, Olympian and gold medallist at the inaugural Youth Olympic Games in wrestling (70 kg)

title: Royal West Academy


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Treaty of Stettin (1570)

The Treaty of Stettin (Frieden von Stettin, Freden i Stettin, Freden i Stettin) of 13 December 1570, ended the Northern Seven Years' War fought between Sweden and Denmark with its internally fragmented alliance of Lübeck and Poland. It also settled Swedish, Danish, and Holy Roman Imperial claims regarding the Livonian War. Unfavourable for Sweden, the treaty assured Danish hegemony in Northern Europe for a short period. Yet, because of its inconclusiveness, it did not prevent further warfare between Denmark-Norway and Sweden, which ended only in the 1720s.

Background
The Kalmar Union comprising Sweden, Denmark and Norway, had broken apart in 1523. Frederick II of Denmark attempted to restore the Union under his rule. Frederick underlined his claim by using the Union's three crowns in his coat of arms and invading Sweden in 1563; both actions are considered the starting events of the Seven Years' War. While the Danes had the upper hand in land battles and captured Älvsborg, the Swedes performed better in naval battles and in Livonia, which had been secularized before and now was a subject of territorial competition of the surrounding powers.

The treaty
In July 1570, Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor, initiated a peace congress in Stettin (after 1945 Szczecin), aiming to mediate between Sweden and Denmark. Several diplomats acted as mediators: The host, Pomeranian duke Johann Friedrich of Pomerania-Stettin, acted as head of the delegates sent by his emperor, Maximilian; French envoy at the Danish court Charles Dancey, who had been heavily involved in the preparation of the congress, was among the mediators; Martin Kromer, bishop of Warmia (Ermland) and others were sent by the Polish king Sigismund Augustus; Augustus of Saxony attended in person. Of the parties, Denmark was represented by Peder Bille (Bilde), Jørgen Rosenkrantz, Henrik Rantzau, Niels Kaas, and Joachim Henke (Hinck); Sweden sent baron Jöran Gera, Bengt Gylta, Erik Gyllenstjerna (Gyllenstierna), and others.

In the resulting treaty, Sweden and Denmark-Norway agreed on the following:
 * The Danish-Norwegian king, Frederick II of Denmark, renounced all claims upon Sweden.
 * The Swedish king, John III of Sweden, renounced all pretensions to Norwegian provinces and Gotland. Thus, Sweden acknowledged for the first time Skåne, Blekinge and Halland as Danish provinces.
 * Sweden was forced to pay 150,000 riksdaler for the ransom of Älvsborg Castle (Älvsborgs lösen; Elfsborgs løsen). To pay this extraordinarily high amount of money, Sweden heavily taxed all moveables in the country, resulting in further impoverishment of the war-torn population. Unburned towns had to pay one twelfth, peasants one tenth, burned down towns one eighteenth of their properties' value.
 * Sweden was also forced to pay 75,000 daler to Lübeck.
 * Sweden turned over her possessions in Livonia for a payment by Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian II.

Outcome
With the treaty, Denmark became the supreme and dominating power in Northern Europe for a short period, yet failed to restore the Kalmar Union. The disputes concerning the three crowns insignia remained unsolved, and the unfavorable conditions for Sweden led to a series of future conflicts ending only in 1720/21.

Lübeck gained nothing from the treaty: though granted privileges by Sweden, these did not enhance Lübeck's position as John III of Sweden granted the same privileges to the Pomeranian port of Stralsund, his war-time ally. The payments promised to Lübeck were never transferred. Swedish pirates continued to capture Lübeck's shipments, and the town as well as the whole Hanseatic League had to acknowledge her degradation to a second-class power.

Neither did Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor, pay the compensation promised to Sweden, and therefore lost his influence on the Baltic affairs. The terms of the treaty regarding Livonia were ignored, and the contemporary Livonian War dragged on.

Denmark received all payments, though always late except for the first. John III was determined to keep his only port on the Scandinavian west coast, and his efforts included the sale of warships and devaluation of the Swedish currency.

title: Treaty of Stettin (1570)


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User talk:Axlroth

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Talk:2005 Al-Aimmah Bridge disaster

Bridge
What are the revenue shares for mobile TV?

It is said the bridge was 30 meters high over the river, so most people were killed instantly upon impact on water or the riverbed. User:195.70.32.136
 * Citation? Cite your sources. --Fighter 18:29, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The Guardian article reports 30 feet, not meters -- Tyagi 20:57, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I've edited the article to reflect this. The 30 foot figure sounds much more accurate - from the photos of the bridge, it is most *definitely* not a 295 foot high bridge. — ceejayoz ★ 21:02, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Of course, 30 meters is just under 100 feet, not 295. *g* CanSpice 22:18, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Do we have a reference for the supposed bridge collapse? Reuters makes no mention of a collapse, and many articles are saying that people jumped from the bridge to save themselves. -- Tyagi 02:10, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

This bridge is walking distance from where I used to live. In fact you could see it from our doorstep. I crossed this bridge many times, in the good old days when religion was a ghost. The bridge is certainly not 30 meters high! 9 meters I would agree. It's painful to read what happened to the victims. These poor people who as I heard came mostly from Sadr city ( previously known as al-Thawra district ie revolution and later Saddam city later now Sadr city ) are poor naive people, who thought that by going on this bridge they are practicing a religious freedom that was denied for decades...ironic because religious freedom is an oximoron when it comes to their religion ( not mine anymore ) ....this is the begining of Iraq's Untergang. That's why it has to be included in Wikipedia. Iraq's tragedy is that it have been torn to peices by Islam. Just 1400 years ago Iraq was half Christian / half Zarahustrian, and the shiite cult is basicly a revival of their original Christian faith in a distorted way. These poor Iraqi's were lead to believe that they were responsible for the death of Mohammed's grandson and torture themselves every year to relieve the guilt that they never earned. Iraq is dead along with the 1000 who died on the bridge. But it has been dead for centuries anyway. It's soul still roams the land but it's body is in continuous decay. ( from the mouth of a contemporary eye witness )
 * Preceding unsigned comment from --Irishpunktom\talk 18:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Mortar Attack
Klonimus 02:39, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The mortar attack is reported at The Guardian, as having killed 7 people, not 16. Al Jazeera also reports 7 dead and 36 injured. Furthermore, are we comfortable with the use of the word terrorists to describe those who carried out the mortar attack? Al Jazeera uses the term rebels and other sites may use the term insurgents. -- Tyagi 21:06, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It should be insurgents not terrorists. The mortar attack was part of an ongoing insurgency, not a terrorist incident, like the kidnapping and beheading of individuals in Iraq. Glowimperial 22:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * How about "attackers" instead of terrorists or insurgents? That way it doesn't need to go back and forth.  Glowimperial 23:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Isn't the intentional targetting of civilians a cut and dry example of terrorism? Or is this word becoming "double-plus ungood"?  --M4-10 01:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Unforuntately, many words in this part of the English language vocabulary have taken a distorted common meaning as a result of political events of recent years. You are correct. By definition, such an act is terrorism (as opposed to Terrorism, I suppose). However, you then enter a debate around the intentional targetting of civilians on all sides of a conflict. -- Tyagi 01:47, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Unfortuneatly some media sources have become afraid of plain english (The BBC being especially notable.), when describing terrorism. People who fire mortars into a corwd of people for a political purpose or to create fear are terrorists. Enough with this post modern moral equivalence. User:Klonimus/AINB
 * A lot of this depends on whether you see the insurgents in Iraq as fighting a legitimate conflict or as terrorists. I know that attacking civilian targets is frowned upon by The Geneva Conventions and other basic standards of conflict as adhered to by the states that invent them, but members of the insurgency in Iraq don't have to play by those rules to be engaged in legitimate conflict (however reprehensible attacking civilians is to our modern sensibilities).  I would have as much reason to change the text "terrorists" to "insurgents" because I see it as a less loaded term (and a more accruate one), and frankly we don't have any real detailed information about the nature or identity of the mortar attackers, like their political or group affiliation.  I changed it to "attackers" so that we don't have to get engaged in a revert war.  If evidence comes in later indicating their motive or allegiance, we can change it then, when we know what we are talking about. Glowimperial 03:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Who cares what their political or group affiliation is? Terrorism is about means, not ends.  Armed rebellion against government is not terrorism by default, but intentional targeting of civilians is, no matter what their politics.  We have all the detailed information we need about them: they deliberately targeted civilians.  Ergo, they are terrorists.  As far as "modern sensibilities", I'm going to take a stand and say that deliberately targeting civilians is objectively wrong, and that our revulsion against it isn't some passing fad.  Peddle moral relativism somewhere else.  --M4-10 04:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Given that Wikipedia's terrorism article can't decide on a standard definition, it may be safer not to use the term here and just move this discussion to the terrorism discussion page. -- Tyagi 04:41, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I have edited the entire section to render this discussion moot. Readers of any intelligence are perfectly capable of figuring out for themselves whether an Al-Qaeda linked group that attacks crowds of religious pilgrims with mortars consists of terrorists or not; it isn't really necessary to decide that for them.

 * In the long run, the facts are far more convincing than any amount of purple prose. Aquillion 04:57, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Plain langauge is nice too. Klonimus 05:04, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. Unnecessary rhetorical flourishes are better reserved for yellow journalism, cable news, or vapid political bloggery; an encyclopedia article should simply state the facts in the plainest language possible. Aquillion 05:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Good changes. Thanks Aquillion. Glowimperial 13:30, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

The mortar attack of 2 hours prior to the stampede is relevant in having predisposed the crowd to fearing that a further attack on Shi'ite pilgrims was imminent. In any case, the group claiming responsibility did not depict that attack as "insurgency" (part of an effort to replace a regime) or as "insurrection" (protest against or attempt to overthrow or defy a regime) or as "terrorism" (intimidating a population in order to sway its attitudes and plans). They indicated it was vengeance against Shi'ites for alleged attacks against Sunnis and that it was religious persecution for their supposed apostacy. That does not make them terrorists any more than were the people who wiped out Christian communities deemed to be heretical a few hundred years ago in a sort of religious genocide. "Terrorism" has recently swollen to become a pejorative catch-all and "insurgency" has become a blanket term that seems to cover every Arab or Moslem in Iraq who is actively, especially violently, working against U.S. wishes even if he or she is not primarily interested in frustrating, humiliating, expelling or destroying the U.S. The argument over whether the people who perpetrated the mortar attack are justified or not, right or wrong, good or bad, terrorists, partisans, zealots or whatever is irrelevant to the Wikipedia article. Myron 01:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Encyclopedic?
Isn't this a news story, better suited to Wikinews? - Ta bu shi da yu 23:20, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I find that a somewhat surprising comment, Ta bu. We have articles on much smaller stampede-type events (Hillsborough disaster, Heysel Stadium disaster, loads of stuff in Category:Man-made disasters). I don't know what the final death toll will be from Hurricane Katrina, which we rightly have a big article on, but if the estimates I'm hearing are correct and it's anything from several hundred to a few thousand, then this is of a similar order of magnitude. As the biggest single loss of life in Iraq since the invasion, even with all the current problems there this will be remembered for a long time to come. I don't see anything wrong with its inclusion in Wikipedia. — Trilobite 14:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

If it was an accidental Mecca-type stampede, then it's not encyclopedic, but this has hints of terrorism, so it's worth including. 69.177.244.239 00:45, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Since when is "terrorism" a prerequisite for encyclopedic? Peyna 02:27:29, 2005-09-01 (UTC)

 * It was a disaster. It doesn't matter if it was terrorism or not. It's an event that is being reported internationally. If Hurricane Katrina and the 9/11 Attacks get their own entries, the Stampede gets its own as well. WikiNews covers current events. Wikipedia covers history. This is going to become a notable event in Iraq history, as officials have said pilgrimages need to be organized better in the future.  Acetic  ' Acid 11:40, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

I find it utterly absurd that anyone might suggest that a currentn event involving the death of a thousand people is not encyclopaedic. --Saforrest 15:57, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * I know, about 1000 people died in it. That's only 1/3 of the people who died during the September 11, 2001 attacks. Still a huge number —M ESSED R OCKER (talk) 19:45, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Easy! I was only asking a question - it's not like I was submitting this to VfD (or AfD as we now know it) or anything... - Ta bu shi da yu 07:13, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Random Jabber
Hmm, the count seemed to have went up about 200 since my last visit to this page. This was a pretty interesting attack if you ask me. --Cyberman 23:32, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
 * No evidence has yet been noted to indicate that the stampede was the result of any attack. -- Tyagi 01:51, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Change title to Baghdad bridge stampede
This bridge is not famous enough to be in the title, and from what I know, this is the only bridge stampede in Baghdad's history of encyclopedic merit. 69.177.244.239 00:46, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Done. --ThomasK 07:21, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

International Effect
Can we get any references for the International responses? If reputable organsations are saying that this is an act of terrorism, then it would be good to back that up with quotes or links. -- Tyagi 02:08, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Done. --ThomasK 07:10, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

The section on "World reaction" adds nothing encyclopedic… just totally predictable almost ceremonial expressions of sorrow, condolence and/or condemnation. Unless the "world" reacts in some surprising or effective manner, this section should be deleted. Myron 08:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

No, should not be deleted. That´s even the world reaction. --ThomasK 12:25, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

In a news article, world reaction would be appropriate. In an encyclopedia, that every leader said it was a Bad Thing is yawnsomely un-notable.

I often do a bit of editing of current events articles, or at least just have a look and see how they're coming along. The "world reaction" quotes that often appear are totally inappropriate in every case. They make the article look like a news story and represent a fundamental misunderstanding of what an encyclopedia article should be. They could be moved to Wikiquote or Wikinews if you're really keen on them, but have you even read them? "The Syrian government and people express their sympathy to Iraqis and to the families of the victims, and they wait for the day when security, stability and progress reign in the country." These bland statements are always churned out by world leaders and everyone else in situations like this. As the anon says above, this is yawnsomely un-notable. — Trilobite 14:48, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. These bland words are not real reactions, they are just diplomatic protocol. This relatively large section doesn't add a thing. --GdB 15:57, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

No, this is important. Even if they are bland statements, there are notable, historic documents and encyclopedic. --ThomasK 18:02, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

I have to concur with those saying it's not encyclopedic or terribly notable. Perhaps if it were a situation in which the people responding said something out of character - a country known to have conflict with Iraq expressing remorse for example - then it might be notable. Countries humanitarian responses are also fairly notable, but mere quotes that express empathy kind of go without saying. Just my opinion -- jcomp489

Being bold. Here is the removed 'world reaction'. If any seems unusual, put it back in. If any seems quoteworthy to be saved for 100 years, put it in wikiquotes.

Death Toll
Has an exact number of deaths been released yet? The article has said up to 1000 for days now. Acetic ' Acid 21:14, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

Choice of words
"The European Union, NATO, and Iran all condemned the stampede as an act of terrorism." Ahem, maybe they said it was the result of acts of terrorism, but I don't think the EU, Nato, or Iran accused all those thousands of panicking people of being terrorists. Someone familiar with what those bodies actually said please change it. --Zero 04:11, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Why is this not relevant
Twice something like "It was the biggest loss of life in Iraq in one day since the US-led invasion of 2003. " has been removed. I would have thought this quite important, and worthy of inclusion on the opening paragraph.. why am I wrong? --Irishpunktom\talk 10:12, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * Right then.. I'll re-add it. --Irishpunktom\talk 14:33, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Wrong. It should not have been re-added. No one responded to the question about being "wrong" because the issue was already discussed on this talk page. Please refer to the postings on this page under "Encyclopedic". Wikipedia eschews sensationalism in favor of a "long" historical perspective. The count of other deaths possibly attributable to the latest invasion of Iraq is not relevant to this stampede, so no comparison is appropriate. Whether a stampede occurs in a large, tightly-packed crowd is a stochastic process; i.e., the event is not wholly determined by the environment even if the catastrophe had a known "trigger". The crowd in question may have been particularly edgy, government preparations for the pilgrimage may have been inadequate, and passage across the bridge may have been constricted because of US military actitivies, so that discussion of the pre-conditions—the context of the stampede—is cogent in the Wikipedia article. Similarly, the earlier explosions near the destination mosque, the rumors of poisoned water and food being offered by people in the neighborhood before the the stampede, and the efforts by neighborhood people to rescue the pilgrims are an important part of the history both of the stampede and of the invasion. However, contrasting the stampede death toll with statistics of other events occurring since an arbitrary date (the start of the current invasion) fails to provide useful perspective and certainly does not belong in the opening paragraph of the article. Out it goes (again). Myron 16:03, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on 2005 Al-Aaimmah bridge stampede. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060112093523/http://www.forbes.com:80/work/feeds/afx/2005/08/31/afx2199216.html to http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/08/31/afx2199216.html

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title: Talk:2005 Al-Aimmah Bridge disaster


text:
Talk:Clearwater, Florida

Holy images Batman!
upon loading this article the user is bombarded with no less than SEVEN images, yes there all very pretty; but they are distracting, delete some and spread out the rest, please! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.175.172 (talk) 08:31, 24 July 2007

Parks and rec section image
Not tryna get into an edit war over an image of a park. The second image (one of the bat house) clearly was an apt usage of an image of a major preserve (Moccasin Lake) located in Clearwater. You quote MOS:IMAGE's "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative" section, but how are either of the images I placed in the section not "relevant". The "Parks and recreation" section is 721 characters long currently, of which 382 (or ~53% of the section) are of the nature preserve. Even if this section was expanded, the nature preserve is still a major part of the city's parks and recreation element. So the images are definitely relevant. Arguing they are not significant is quite particularly subjective here and so I think you are more following the letter of that MOS:IMAGE guideline, and not enough considering the spirit of it.

Regardless, in the same paragraph you quoted in your edit summary, the guideline states "When possible, find better images and improve captions instead of simply removing poor or inappropriate ones," and so I again will link the Commons category of images of Moccasin Lake Nature Park, because I can confidently ensure you that including one (1) image from there is not somehow bloating or overloading the Clearwater article with images (so it wouldn't be violating that other sentence about how "not every article needs images, and too many can be distracting" in that guideline's paragraph) and including one of those images is again, relevant because it is going to be located within the appropriate section of the article. Perhaps this image of a walkway within the preserve or of a directional signpost pointing towards Moccasin Lake may be apt to include. And if not, what image exactly from that category (or even, perhaps, what type of image not found in the category) would you consider alright, because a compromise of sorts would be nice. Soulbust (talk) 10:04, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

 * The images of the raptor and bathouse would be appropriate in the article Moccasin Lake Nature Park because it is relevant to that topic. It is not relevant and significant to the article Clearwater, Florida. For an article on a city, appropriate photographs might be maps, street views, skylines, prominent buildings, prominent landforms (mountain, beach, lake, forest), prominent statuary or monuments, etc. Now if the city had a historic "mascot" of a raptor and had been marketing itself with that for decades, then a photo of the current raptor mascot would be appropriate.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  17:13, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Clearwater, Florida