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Indonesian Navy

The Indonesian Navy (Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Laut, TNI-AL) is the naval branch of the Indonesian National Armed Forces. It was founded on 10 September 1945 and has a role to patrol Indonesia's lengthy coastline, to enforce and patrol the territorial waters and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) of Indonesia, to protect Indonesia's maritime strategic interests, to protect the islands surrounding Indonesia, and to defend against seaborne threats.

The Navy is headed by the Chief of Staff of the Navy (Kepala Staf Angkatan Laut – KSAL or KASAL). The Indonesian Navy consists of three major fleets known as "Armada", which are Komando Armada I (1st Fleet Command) located in Tanjung Uban, Komando Armada II (2nd Fleet Command) located in Surabaya, Komando Armada III (3rd Fleet Command) located in Sorong, and one Komando Lintas Laut Militer (Military Sealift Command). The Navy also heads the Marine Corps.

Mission
According to Article 9 of Law No.34/2004 on the National Armed Forces, the Navy has the following tasks:
 * 1) perform military duties in national defence;
 * 2) enforce the law and secure the order in the sea area of national jurisdiction in accordance with national laws and ratified international laws;
 * 3) perform diplomatic duties in support of foreign policy set by the government;
 * 4) engage other duties relevant for the maintenance and development of naval power;
 * 5) support civilian empowerment in sea defence areas.

Creation and actions during the revolution
The official Indonesian Navy's history began on 10 September 1945, at the outset of the Indonesian National Revolution. The administration of the early Indonesian government established the People's Marine Security Agency (Badan Keamanan Rakyat Laut/BKR Laut) on 22 August 1945, the predecessor to the modern Indonesian Navy. BKR Laut with only wooden ships, a few landing craft and weapons left by Japan, was initially composed of Indonesian sailors who had served in the ranks of the Royal Netherlands Navy during the Dutch colonial period, and who had fought the Japanese during the years of military occupation, plus active militias who served with the Japanese and ex-Indonesian officers and ratings of the Imperial Japanese Navy. The formation of the Indonesian military organization known as the People's Security Army (Tentara Keamanan Rakyat/TKR) on 5 October 1945, at the height of the National Revolution, helped spur the further existence of the TKR Naval Branch – the Peoples' Security Navy (TLKR), which later became the Republic of Indonesia Navy (Angkatan Laut Republik Indonesia / ALRI). The name ALRI was used until 1970, when it was changed to Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL).

As the revolution grew, and the Navy began its work, naval bases were established throughout the archipelago. Former ships of the Imperial Japanese Navy handed down to the new republic were acquired. Simple strength did not discourage the Navy to deploy Sea Traffic Operations in order to spread the news of the proclamation and helping to form and train Republican military forces and militias nationwide. Besides, they also attempted to breach the Dutch naval blockade in order to obtain aid from abroad.

The newly formed navy confronted the more superior Royal Netherlands Navy in Bali, Sibolga and Cirebon. Cross-sea operations are also able to prepare the armed forces in South Kalimantan, Bali and Sulawesi. Limitations in strength and ability to lead the Navy had to divert the struggle in the countryside, after most boats were sunk and nearly all bases battered by the Dutch and Allied military forces. But the determination to participate again in the sea never subsided. In the hard times during the National Revolution the Navy succeeded in forming the Fleet Forces (CA), Marine Corps (Corps Mariniers/ CM), and educational institutions in various places. The formation of these elements mark the presence of aspects for the formation of a modern national navy.

After the revolution
The end of the War of Independence marked the development of the Navy as a modern naval power. In accordance to the results of the Round Table Conference, in 1949, the Navy received a variety of war equipment such as warships and its supporting facilities such as naval bases. This step came along with the process of consolidation within the Navy, revamping the organization and recruitment of personnel through educational institutions before manning naval equipment. During 1949–1959, the Indonesian Navy managed to enhance its strength and improve its capabilities. In the field of organization the navy reorganized its Fleet Forces, the Marine Corps – then Korps Komando Angkatan Laut (KKO-AL – Naval Commando Corps Command), naval aviation and a number of regions as territorial defense command aspects of the sea. Naval combat equipment grew, both from former Dutch equipment handed down to the new republic and through purchase from other countries.

With the increased strength and the capability, the Navy began refining the strategy, tactics, and techniques of marine operations, which are directly applied in a variety of military operations in order to deal with separatist movements that have sprung up in the year from 1950 to 1959. In operations against PRRI in Sumatra, Permesta, Darul Islam in West Java, and RMS in the Moluccas, the Navy gained lessons in applying the concept of marine operations, amphibious operations, and joint operations with other forces.

At the height of the Cold War

At the time the country started to recover from the threat of disintegration, in 1959, the Navy launched a program known as Menuju Angkatan Laut yang Jaya (rough translation – "Towards A Distinguished Navy"). The Navy experienced a significant progress until 1965 which was motivated by the politics of confrontation in order to seize West Irian, which Indonesia claimed as part of its territory, a claim refuted by the Dutch government. As part of the increasing military ties between Indonesia and the Warsaw Pact, various naval combat equipments from Eastern European countries strengthened the Navy and become the dominant force at the time. Some military equipment of Soviet production served in the ranks of the Navy, among others Sverdlov-class cruiser, Skoryy-class destroyer, Riga-class frigate, Whiskey-class submarine (the first such vessels to be used in Southeast Asia), Komar-class missile boat, Ilyushin Il-28 long-range bomber aircraft of Naval Aviation and the PT-76 Amphibious light tanks, BTR-50 APCs and BM-14 MRLs (Southeast Asia's first ever MRL system in service) of the Commando Corps, the first of their kind in the region. With such power in the era of the 1960s the Navy was called the largest Navy in Southeast Asia and one of the strongest within the Asia-Pacific, outranking those of its neighbors in armament and prestige.

By January 1962 the Indonesian Navy started preparing several naval operations for the liberation of West Irian known as Operation Trikora, which began on 15 December the year before as part of the military component of that operation under the Mandala Command for the Liberation of West Irian (Komando Mandala Pembebasan Irian Barat). Beginning 1 January, fast-ship torpedo vessels of the Navy were forward deployed to deal with destroyers, frigates and aircraft of the Royal Netherlands Navy. On January 15, 1962 Commodore Yos Sudarso along with RI Matjan Tutul sank in the sea battle in the Arafura Sea. This battle is known as the Vlakke Hoek incident. By mid-year the Navy was preparing to organize its role in the planned Operation Jayawijaya which would have been the largest amphibious operation in the history of Indonesian military operations if commenced. The naval component was made up of 100 warships and 16,000 sailors and Marines. The deployment of forces preparatory to the planned landings in West Papua forced the Dutch to return to negotiations and reached an agreement to hand over West Irian to Indonesia.

After seizing West Irian, Sukarno by 1963 moved his sights on Malaysia. Indonesia political confrontation against Neocolonialism and Imperialism (Nekolim) continued in Operation Dwikora to oppose the formation of Malaysia. Although elements of the National Armed Forces were prepared for operational deployments to the new state, the operations were limited to the infiltration operation along the Borneo frontier. Soldiers from the marine corps were involved in the operations which targeted both the Malaysian states of Sabah and Sarawak. The Marine Corps, though, would figure in the 1964 MacDonald House bombing in Singapore.

1965 onwards
Operation Dwikora was discontinued in 1965 along with a succession of governments in Indonesia after an abortive coup d'état took place in Jakarta, which were organized by the self-proclaimed organization of Indonesian National Armed Forces members who, in the early hours of 1 October 1965, assassinated six Indonesian Army generals and killed 3 more. Since 1966, the Navy experienced a new chapter in its history as the military integration efforts. With the integration of the armed forces organizationally and operationally been able to keep up on the implementation of tasks in the field of defense and security so doctrinally, the direction of development of the power and capabilities of each branch to be concentrated. The operations were prominent during the period of the 1970s was Operation Seroja in the framework of the integration of East Timor to Indonesia. The Navy played an active role in the operation of landings, a joint ground operation, and transporting troops by sea. Starting the 1980s the Navy began to modernize combat equipment. Ships made in Eastern Europe that has been the core strength of the Navy in the era of the 1960s and 1970s were not suited to meet the growing and changing needs for the navy and its branches (saving for its submarines and several corvettes and frigates, the submarines were retired in 1990). The worsening relations between Indonesia and the Soviet Union after the overthrow of President Sukarno resulted a cessation of military cooperation between the two countries and the Warsaw Pact. Therefore, the Navy switched once more to using Western technology to modernize the power and ability to buy warships, logistics vessels and other major combat equipment from various countries. Included among those commissioned during the Suharto presidency were Fatahillah-class corvette and Ahmad Yani-class frigate from the Netherlands, Cakra-class submarine from West Germany, fast patrol boat from South Korea, and the GAF Nomad patrol aircraft from Australia. In 1993 the Navy also received 39 ships from the former Volksmarine (East German Navy), including 16 Parchim-class corvettes, 14 Frosch-class landing ship tanks (LSTs), and 9 Kondor II-class minessweepers. Aside from these the Navy reorganized its forces. In 1984, as part of an-Armed Forces wide unit reorganization, the former Naval Regions, which in turn governed Naval Bases and Naval Districts and subordinate Naval Stations and Naval Air Stations, were turned into Main Naval Bases of the Navy Fleet Commands, divided from the formerly unified National Fleet Command on the basis of the Western and Eastern Squadrons of the Fleet. The National Fleet Command by the late 1960s was briefly split into two operational fleets – the Ocean Fleet Force (for defense operations abroad) and the Archipelago Fleet (for local defense operations within Indonesia), until these were fused into a unified command in 1970.

At the same time the Navy began to develop a non-combat military operations in the form of humanitarian service program Surya Bhaskara Jaya in various remote areas in Indonesia that can only be reached by sea. The core of the operating activities are health services, construction and rehabilitation of public facilities and various counseling in health, law, and civil defense. This event is held regularly every year until now. A number of countries also participated in these activities, among others, Singapore, Australia and the United States. The navy also seeks promoting the development of the maritime sector, especially those related to aspects of defense and security at sea, activities that had been present since independence before the formation of the Ministry of Maritime Affairs and Fisheries. The actual activities undertaken today by the Navy are establishing marine development assessment bodies together with the government and private sectors in some areas, coastal village pilot programs are summarized in Coastal Rural Development (Bindesir), and the National Potential Development Program for Maritime Defense (Binpotnaskuatmar). In order to encourage the spirit of the seafaring nation, the Navy held an international scale maritime event Arung Samudera 1995. The navy was responsible for the programs for National Maritime Year 1996 and the Bunaken Declaration of 1998, which is a manifestation of marine development in Indonesia.

Expansion in the 21st century
During the presidencies of Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and Joko Widodo, the Navy has begun a program of expansion of its combat commands and has begun a program of national warship construction in naval arsenals, while acquiring nationally produced transport aircraft for the needs of the Navy.

Organization
According to Presidential Regulation No. 66/2019 on the Organization of the Indonesian National Armed Forces, the organizational structure of the navy comprises the following components:

Leadership Elements

 * KSAL,Laksamana TNI Muhammad Ali.jpg (Admiral) Muhammad Ali]]Chief of Staff of the Navy (Kepala Staf Angkatan Laut), position held by a four-star Admiral or Marine General; and
 * Deputy Chief of Staff of the Navy (Wakil Kepala Staf Angkatan Laut), position held by a three-star Vice Admiral or Marine Lieutenant General.

Leadership support elements
The following positions of the leadership supports are equivalent to a naval Staff organization.
 * Inspectorate General of the Navy (Inspektorat Jenderal TNI Angkatan Laut), position held by two-star Rear Admiral;
 * Advisory Staffs to the Navy Chief of Staff (Staf Ahli Kepala Staf Angkatan Laut), position held by two-star Rear Admiral or one-star Commodore;
 * Advisory Staff Coordinator (Koordinator Staf Ahli Kepala Staf Angkatan Laut);
 * Advisor to the Navy Chief of Staff on State Resources and Defense (Staf Ahli Bidang Sumber Daya & Pertahanan Negara);
 * Advisor to the Navy Chief of Staff on National Territorial Affairs (Staf Ahli Bidang Kewilayahan Nasional);
 * Advisor to the Navy Chief of Staff on Social and Legal Affairs (Staf Ahli Bidang Sosial, Hukum, & Perundangan);
 * Advisor to the Navy Chief of Staff on Economic and Management (Staf Ahli Bidang Ekonomi & Manajemen);
 * Advisor to the Navy Chief of Staff on Documents, Strategy, and Operations (Staf Ahli Bidang Dokumen, Strategi, & Operasi);
 * Advisor to the Navy Chief of Staff on Science and Technology (Staf Ahli Bidang Ilmu Pengetahuan & Teknologi).
 * Naval Planning and Budgeting Staff (Staf Perencanaan dan Anggaran TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * Naval Intelligence Staff (Staf Intelijen TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * Naval Operations Staff (Staf Operasi TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * Naval Personnel Staff (Staf Personalia TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * Naval Logistics Staff (Staf Logistik TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * Naval Maritime Potentials Staff (Staf Potensi Maritim TNI Angkatan Laut); and
 * Naval Communication and Electronics Staff (Staf Komunikasi dan Elektronika TNI Angkatan Laut).

Central Executive Agencies
The following agencies are central executive agencies, directly subordinated under the Navy Headquarters.

Academies and Schools Centers Services
 * 1) Akademi Angkatan Laut Peringati HUT Ke-78 TNI Tahun 2023.jpgesian Naval Academy (Akademi TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 2) Naval Command and Staff College (Sekolah Staf dan Komando Angkatan Laut); and
 * 3) Naval Technological College (Sekolah Tinggi Teknologi TNI Angkatan Laut).
 * 1) Naval Aviation Center (Pusat Penerbangan Angkatan Laut);
 * 2) Naval Military Police Center (Pusat Polisi Militer TNI Angkatan Laut); and
 * 3) Naval Frogman Forces Command (Komando Pasukan Katak TNI Angkatan Laut).
 * 1) Naval Security and Cipher Service (Dinas Pengamanan dan Persandian TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 2) Naval Public Relations Service (Dinas Penerangan TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 3) Naval Communications and Electronic Systems Service (Dinas Komunikasi dan Elektronika TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 4) Naval Justice Service (Dinas Hukum TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 5) Naval Operations and Training Service (Dinas Operasi dan Latihan TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 6) Naval Maritime Potentials Service (Dinas Potensi Maritim TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 7) Naval Personnel Administration Service (Dinas Administrasi Personal TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 8) Naval Education Service (Dinas Pendidikan TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 9) Naval Personnel Maintenance Service (Dinas Perawatan Personel TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 10) Naval Medical Service (Dinas Kesehatan TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 11) Naval Materiel Service (Dinas Materiil TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 12) Naval Weapons and Electronics Materiel Service (Dinas Materiil Senjata dan Elektronika TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 13) Naval Seaworthiness Service (Dinas Kelaikan TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 14) Naval Base Facilities Service (Dinas Fasilitas Pangkalan TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 15) Naval Procurement Service (Dinas Pengadaan TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 16) Naval Logistics Service (Dinas Pembekalan TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 17) Naval Finance Service (Dinas Keuangan TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 18) Naval Research and Development Service (Dinas Penelitian dan Pengembangan TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 19) Naval Information and Data Processing Service (Dinas Informasi dan Pengolahan Data TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 20) Naval Psychology Service (Dinas Psikologi TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 21) Naval Historical Heritage Service (Dinas Sejarah TNI Angkatan Laut); and
 * 22) Naval Mental Guidance and Chaplaincy Service (Dinas Pembinaan Mental TNI Angkatan Laut).

Naval Aviation
The Indonesian Naval Aviation Center (Pusat Penerbangan Angkatan Laut – Puspenerbal) is a part of the Navy's Central Executive Agencies led by a Rear Admiral. Puspenerbal serves as the center of guidance to the Navy's aviation units in the field of personnel as well as the readiness of air elements in support of the main missions of the Navy. Indonesian Naval Aviation is not just a combat unit, but also participates in various Marine Corps operational duties as well as providing logistics and personnel tactical transport facilities for marine and airbase systems. In carrying out these tasks, Puspenerbal carries out flight functions which include: Air surveillance, anti-submarine, fast logistics support, maritime patrol, marine combat operations, and the provision of material coaching functions. This unit is in charge of supporting naval operations, both for combat operations, SAR operations and humanitarian relief operations during times of calamities. Marine security to monitor the movement of foreign ships, especially in the archipelagic sea lanes of Indonesia, environmental protection from the pollution of dangerous materials, the prevention of smuggling and theft of marine wealth is also an important mission carried by Puspenerbal, in cooperation with other air force elements such as TNI-AU and Police. One of the most famous acts of Navy aircraft in the 21st century was when they were involved in evacuating victims of the 2006 Yogyakarta earthquake.

Principal Commands under the Navy Chief of Staff

 * 1) Koarmada RI.svg Indonesian Fleet Command (Komando Armada Republik Indonesia – Koarmada RI). The Navy's military strength are spread across several Main Naval Bases (Pangkalan Utama TNI Angkatan Laut – Lantamal) and Naval Bases (Pangkalan TNI Angkatan Laut – Lanal) throughout Indonesia, these bases and the regional base commands fall under the direct supervision of the fleet commanders' office. Navy Headquarters assigned the numbering of Main Naval Base I to XI according to its respective geographical location from west to east on 1 August 2006 in line with the inauguration of the Teluk Bayur Naval Base in Padang, West Sumatra into Main Naval Base II. In 2015, three Naval Base were upgraded to Main Naval Base with the numbering of XII, XIII and XIV. Each Main Naval Base is organized into a number of naval bases and naval stations plus a number of Naval Air Stations (Pangkalan Udara Angkatan Laut – Lanudal). The Fleet Command is led by a three-star Vice Admiral and responsible for all the three fleet commands.
 * 2) * Koarmada 1.svg 1st Fleet Command (Komando Armada I – Koarmada I) based in Tanjung Uban, Bintan Regency in Riau Islands, coterminous with Army's KODAM Jayakarta, KODAM Iskandar Muda, KODAM I/Bukit Barisan, KODAM II/Sriwijaya, KODAM III/Siliwangi, and KODAM XII/Tanjungpura, as well as Air Force's 1st Operational Command West.
 * 3) * Koarmada 2.svg 2nd Fleet Command (Komando Armada II – Koarmada II based in Surabaya, coterminous with Army's KODAM IV/Diponegoro, KODAM V/Brawijaya, KODAM VI/Mulawarman, KODAM IX/Udayana, KODAM XIII/Merdeka, and KODAM XIV/Hasanuddin, as well as Air Force's 2nd Operation Command Central.
 * 4) * Koarmada 3.svg 3rd Fleet Command (Komando Armada 3 – Koarmada 3) based in Sorong, coterminous with Air Force's 3rd Operational Command East and Army's KODAM XVI/Pattimura, KODAM XVII/Cenderawasih, and KODAM XVIII/Kasuari.
 * 5) Pushidrosal.png Naval Hydro-Oceanographic Center (Pusat Hidro-Oseanografi TNI Angkatan Laut);
 * 6) Flag of the Indonesian Marine Corps.png Indonesian Marine Corps (Korps Marinir Republik Indonesia – Kormar RI), with three Marine Forces and an independent Marine Brigade plus support units;
 * 7) Kodiklatal logo.jpg Naval Doctrine, Education, and Training Development Command (Komando Pengembangan Doktrin, Pendidikan, dan Latihan TNI Angkatan Laut – Kodiklatal):
 * 8) * Naval Operation Education Command (Komando Pendidikan Operasi Laut);
 * 9) * Marine Corps Education Command (Komando Pendidikan Marinir);
 * 10) * Naval Support Training Command (Komando Pendidikan Dukungan Umum);
 * 11) * Basic Military Training and Education Centre (Pusat Latihan dan Pendidikan Dasar Kemiliteran);
 * 12) * Electronics and Naval Weapon Guidance System Training Centre (Pusat Latihan Elektronika dan Sistem Kendali Senjata);
 * 13) * Naval Operation Training Centre (Pusat Latihan Operasi Laut); and
 * 14) * Marine Corps Training Centre (Pusat Latihan Marinir).
 * 15) Military Sealift Command (Komando Lintas Laut Militer – Kolinlamil) coordinates the navy's logistical assets in support of its personnel.
 * 16) * Military Sealift Force Jakarta
 * 17) * Military Sealift Force Surabaya
 * 18) * Military Sealift Force Makassar

Naval territorial organization leadership
Each of the 3 Fleet Commands are led by Rear Admirals as commanding officers with Commodores as chiefs of staff and executive officers, and are organized into:

 * Main Naval Bases, commanded by a Commodore or Brigadier General (Marine Corps)
 * Naval Bases (Type B), commanded by a Colonel (Navy / Marine Corps)
 * Naval Bases (Type C), commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel (Navy / Marine Corps)
 * Naval Bases (Type D), commanded by a Major (Navy / Marine Corps)
 * Naval Stations
 * Naval Stations Type A, commanded by a Captain (Navy / Marine Corps)
 * Naval Stations Type B, commanded by a First Lieutenant (Navy / Marine Corps)
 * Naval Stations Type C, commanded by a Second Lieutenant (Navy / Marine Corps)
 * Naval Maintenance and Repair Facilities, with similar organization as in regular naval bases
 * Naval Air Stations, with similar organization as in regular naval bases, but report to the Naval Aviation Center

The Main Naval Base organization additionally contains a naval security unit and an administrative regiment of one naval police battalion and one Marine Corps base defense battalion.

Service Branches
In general, specialty corps in the navy can be divided into 3 levels according to detail of specialization and rank, which are officers (usually has special title of "Laut" or "Marinir" after their rank), NCOs (specialized corps, including warrant officers) and enlisted (most specialized corps).

All officers regardless of specialty corps wear either peaked caps or specialty coloured berets with their uniforms. Women officers wear crusher caps regardless of their specialty.

Personnel of the Navy deployed as part of Garuda Contingent wears UN Blue beret with UN arms pushed to the right in full dress, combat or service uniform regardless of speciality corps.

 * Seamen's Corps (Korps Pelaut) (P) – Most wear navy blue berets excepting submariners that wear black berets, enlisted ratings wear sailor caps with their dress uniforms, while senior ranked NCOs wear peaked caps. Since 2021, the "dixie cup" sailor caps were replaced with a more traditional sailor cap. The enlisted and NCOs categories under are further subdivided into the following specialties:
 * Nautical Corps (Bahari) (BAH);
 * Navigation Corps (Navigasi) (NAV);
 * Communication Corps (Komunikasi) (KOM);
 * Surface Weapon Systems (Senjata Atas Air) (SAA);
 * Subsurface Weapon Systems (Senjata Bawah Air) (SBA);
 * Telegraphic Corps (Telegrafis) (TLG);
 * Signal Corps (Isyarat) (ISY);
 * Ammunition Corps (Amunisi) (AMO);
 * Naval Artillery (Meriam) (MER);
 * Naval Missiles (Rudal) (RDL);
 * Naval Mines and Demolitions (Ranjau Laut dan Demolisi) (RJD);
 * Torpedo and Depth Charges (Torpedo dan Bom Laut) (TRB).

 * Naval Engineering Corps (Korps Teknik) (T). Officers, NCOs, and enlisted wear construction helmets when performing engineering or transport work. The enlisted and NCOs of electronics corps are further subdivided into the following specialties:
 * Mechanical Engineering (Teknik Mesin) (MES);
 * Diesel Engineering (Teknik Mesin Diesel) (MDL);
 * Civil Engineering (Teknik Bangunan) (THB);
 * Electrical Engineering (Teknik Listrik) (LIS);
 * Aircraft Engineering (Mesin Pesawat Udara) (MPU);
 * Aircraft Electrical Engineering (Listrik Pesawat Udara) (LPU);
 * Motorized Transportation (Angkutan Bermotor) (ANG); and
 * General Construction Engineering (Teknik Konstruksi Umum) (TKU).

 * Naval Electronic Corps (Korps Elektronika) (E). The enlisted and NCOs of electronics corps are further subdivided into the following specialties:
 * Electronic Detection (Elektronika Deteksi) (EDE);
 * Electronic Communication (Elektronika Komunikasi) (EKO);
 * Electronic Control (Elektronika Kendali) (EKL);
 * Armaments and Munitions Electronics (Elektronika Senjata dan Amunisi) (ESA);
 * Computer Electronics (Elektronika Teknik Komputer) (ETK); and
 * Armaments Electronics (Elektronika Teknik Senjata) (ETA).

 * Supply Corps (Korps Suplai) (S). The enlisted and NCOs of supply corps are further subdivided into the following specialties:
 * Finance (Keuangan) (KEU);
 * Administration (Tata Usaha) (TTU);
 * Housekeeping (Tata Graha) (TTG); and
 * Supply (Perbekalan) (BEK).

 * Marine Corps (Korps Marinir) (MAR) – Personnel wear magenta berets. Marine corps personnel use army-style ranks and terminologies, despite being part of the navy. The enlisted and NCOs of marine corps are further subdivided into the following specialties:
 * Infantry (Infanteri) (INF);
 * Amphibious Reconnaissance (Intai Amfibi) (IAM);
 * Artillery (Artileri) (ART);
 * Cavalry (Kavaleri) (KAV);
 * Communications (Komunikasi) (KOM);
 * Combat Engineering (Zeni) (ZNI); and
 * Transport, Logistics and Ordnance (Angkutan dan Peralatan) (ABP).

 * Medical Corps (Korps Kesehatan) (K). The enlisted and NCOs of medical corps are further subdivided into the following specialties:
 * General Nursing (Rawat Umum) (RUM);
 * Dental Nursing (Rawat Kesehatan Gigi) (RKG);
 * Pharmacy (Farmasi) (FAR);
 * Medical Corpsman (Asisten Paramedik) (APM);
 * Public Health Assistant (Penunjang Kesehatan) (PNK);
 * Nursing Assistant (Asisten Perawat Kesehatan) (APK);
 * Dental Assistant (Asisten Dokter Gigi) (ADG); and
 * Pharmacy Assistant (Asisten Tenaga Kefarmasian) (ATF).

 * Special Corps (Korps Khusus) (KH). The enlisted and NCOs of special corps are further subdivided into the following specialties:
 * Physical Fitness (Jasmani) (JAS);
 * Bandsmen (Musik) (MUS) - bandsmen wear the general uniform of the Sea Fleet Corps enlisted ratings and petty officers save for the bands of the Marine Corps that wears magenta berets;
 * Computer Data Processor (Pengelola Data Komputer) (PDK); and
 * Psychology (Psikologi) (PSI).

 * Naval Justice Corps (Korps Hukum) (H). Tasked with providing legal service within the Navy on the matters of the Law of the Sea, international law, humanitarian law, human rights law, law enforcement, legal assistance, and legal analysis. Personnel wear similar uniform as Sea Fleet Corps.

 * Military Police Corps (Korps Polisi Militer) (PM) – Personnel wear light blue berets pushed to the left or blue MP helmet.

 * Women's Naval Service Corps (Korps Wanita Angkatan Laut) (W) - Personnel wear variant crusher caps with their uniforms or a naval Tricorne for NCOs, naval policewomen wear the light blue beret or blue helmet. If assigned to Marine Corps, they wear the magenta or purple beret depending on unit assignment.

Equipment
All commissioned ships of the TNI-AL have the prefix KRI, standing for Kapal Republik Indonesia (Ship of the Republic of Indonesia) and KAL, standing for Kapal Angkatan Laut (Navy Ship) for smaller boats which have a length less than 36m, and made from fiberglass.

Marine Corps

The Indonesian Marine Corps (Korps Marinir Republik Indonesia) officially known as KORMAR RI, "Marinir" or "Korps Marinir" is an integral part of the TNI-AL. It is sized at the military corps level serving as the Naval Infantry and main amphibious warfare force of the TNI. Distinguished from other TNI-AL members by their unique qualification badges and insignia and unique magenta berets. It is commanded by a two-star ranked officer. It has three divisions, which are: The three marine divisions are each led by a one star ranked officer.
 * Pasukan Marinir I (PASMAR I) (Marine Force I) based in Jakarta.
 * Pasukan Marinir II (PASMAR II) (Marine Force II) based in Surabaya.
 * Pasukan Marinir III (PASMAR III) (Marine Force III) based in Sorong.

Kopaska

Formed on 31 March 1962, the Indonesian Navy Frogman Forces Command (Komando Pasukan Katak) or Kopaska is a Frogman unit of the TNI-AL. There are three fleet frogmnan units with detachments specializing in sabotage / anti-sabotage (terror), special operations, combat SAR, EOD and naval minesweeping, underwater demolition and special boat units. KOPASKA's main duties are underwater demolition (raiding enemy ships and bases), destroying main underwater installations, reconnaissance, prisoner snatches, preparing beaches for larger naval amphibious operations, and counter-terrorism. In peacetime the unit deploys a seven-person team to serve as security personnel for VIPs. They wear the maroon beret.

Yontaifib

The Marine amphibious reconnaissance battalions (Batalyon Intai Amfibi) or Yontaifib is an elite recon unit within the Indonesian Marine Corps which is tasked for conducting Amphibious reconnaissance and Special reconnaissance. Taifib was previously known as "Kipam" (abbreviation from: "Komando Intai Para Amfibi") which literally means in English: the Para-Amphibious reconnaissance Commandos.

They were officially formed on 13 March 1961 as marine commandos in response to Operation Trikora. Set at a regimental strength of three battalions, "Taifib" was formed as the elite amphibious reconnaissance unit of the Marine Corps, and as a unit of that formation wears magenta berets.

Denjaka

Jala Mangkara Detachment (Detasemen Jala Mangkara) or Denjaka is the special operations and counter-terrorism forces of the Indonesian Navy. This is a combined detachment formed from selected personnel of the Navy's Underwater Special Unit (Kopaska) and the Marine Corps' Amphibious Reconnaissance Battalion (Taifib). The unit was formed in 1984 by the Commander of the Indonesian National Armed Forces to counter maritime strategic threats including terrorism and sabotage. Despite the specific reason for its formation, as in the case of any other special operations forces around the world, the detachment is also fully trained in conducting reconnaissance, unconventional warfare, and clandestine behind-enemy-lines operations. Denjaka's primary task is to develop anti-terrorism, anti-sabotage and other clandestine operations capabilities in support of maritime counter-terrorism, counter-sabotage and other special operations as directed by the commander of the armed forces. Denjaka personnel wear the purple beret.

Ongoing projects
The Indonesian Navy is progressing the Minimum Essential Force plan to replenish and modernise the fleet, this includes achieving 151 vessels (minimum), 220 vessels (standard), or 274 vessels (ideal), for which it has a blueprint out to 2024. Some of those platforms yet to be delivered include:

 * Scorpene-class Attack Submarine, on 2 April 2024, Naval Group announced that the Indonesian Navy has placed an order for two improved Scorpène-class submarine, which will be built by PT PAL in Indonesia.

 * Type 31-class General Purpose Frigate, variant of Arrowhead 140 frigate design, Known locally as Fregat Merah Putih (Red White Frigate). Built by PT PAL.
 * Lead ship first steel cut on 9 December 2022, keel laying on 25 August 2023.
 * Second ship first steel cut on 5 June 2024.

 * Bung Karno-class Corvette, designated as Korvet Rudal Heli (Missile & Helicopter-carrying Corvette) and presidential transport ship.
 * Second ship under construction, keel laying on 25 January 2024.

 * KCR-60M Tesco-class Fast Missile Boat, KCR-60m variant with water-jet propulsion. Built by PT. Tesco Indomaritim since 2021.
 * Lead ship already launched.
 * Second and third ship still on construction.

 * KCR-60M Palindo-class Fast Missile Boat, another variant of KCR-60m (68m in length) with waterjet propulsion. Built by PT. Palindo Marine.
 * Lead ship under construction. The keel were laid on 12 June 2024.

 * Thaon di Revel-class Offshore Patrol Vessel, in March 2024, Fincantieri and the Indonesian Ministry of Defence have signed a 1.18-billion-euro contract for the supply of two Thaon di Revel-class offshore patrol vessel. The ships to be sold would be among those that already being built for the Italian Navy in order to accelerate delivery.

 * OPV-90M-class Offshore Patrol Vessel, new ocean-going patrol ship built by PT. Daya Radar Utama.
 * Lead and second ship already keel laid in 16 November 2022.

 * Dorang-class Patrol Boat, new 60 meter patrol boat based on KCR-60 built by multiple local shipyard.
 * Fifth and sixth ship under construction by PT. Caputra Mitra Sejati shipyard.

 * BHO-105M-class Hydrographic and Oceanographic Research Vessel, built by PT. Palindo Marine in collaboration with Abeking & Rasmussen.
 * Lead ship under construction. First steel cut on 15 September 2023. Keel laid on 14 December 2023.

 * SRS Mothership, 1 unit on order, to be built by BTI Defence.

Integrated Maritime Surveillance Systems
With various coastal radars, Indonesia has one of the world's longest Integrated Maritime Surveillance Systems (IMSS). The network covers more than 1,205 km of coastline in the Straits of Malacca and about 1,285 km of coastline in the Sulawesi Sea.

The IMSS is a tightly integrated network of ship and shore based sensors, communications devices, and computing resources that collect, transmit, analyze and display a broad array of maritime data including Automatic Identification System (AIS), surface radar, surveillance cameras, Global Positioning System (GPS), equipment health monitors and radio transmissions of maritime traffic in wide operating areas. Redundant sensors and multiple communication paths make the IMSS a robust and capable system. The IMSS enhances Indonesia's ability to detect, track, and monitor vessels passing through territorial and international waters. This capability is crucial to combating piracy, illegal fishing, smuggling, and terrorism within and around Indonesia's maritime borders. The IMSS is manned and operated by the Indonesian Navy, and consists of 18 Coastal Surveillance Stations (CSS), 11 Ship-based Radars, two Regional Command Centers, and two Fleet Command Centers (Jakarta and Surabaya).

Rank structure
In the Navy, as well as in other armed forces branches in Indonesia, the rank consists of officer in Indonesian known as "Perwira", NCO "Bintara" and enlisted "Tamtama".

The Indonesian Navy is one of few navies in the world which use rank titles similar to its Army, except for flag officers and lower-ranking enlisted sailors. However the Indonesian Marine Corps, which is a branch of the Navy, uses exactly the same rank titles as those of the Army, but still uses Navy-style insignia (for lower-ranking enlisted marines, blue replaces the red colour). Starting 2006, navy personnel assigned abroad are authorized to use foreign service uniform, officially named "Black Navy" (similar to service dress blues in United States Navy) during their service overseas (e.g. during training exercises), which includes sleeve and cuff insignia.

The proper title to address rank are as follows, all high-ranking officers (Admiral or Marine General) use their rank followed by "(TNI)", while other officers use their rank followed by respective branch/corps. For example, a Navy captain from fleet forces corps uses the title "Kolonel Laut Pelaut" (written as "Kolonel Laut (P)"), while a Navy Vice Admiral uses the title "Laksamana Madya (TNI)" regardless of their previous branches. Warrant officers, NCOs and enlisted seamen may put their respective branch/corps specialty, for example: "Pembantu Letnan Dua SAA" (warrant officer from surface weaponry corps) and "Kelasi Dua TRB" (seaman recruit from torpedo corps). All marine corps personnel, general officers inclusive, use their rank followed by "(Mar)".

Note: Indonesia is not a member of NATO, so there is not an official equivalence between the Indonesian military ranks and those defined by NATO. The displayed parallel is approximate and for illustration purposes only.

Note: The red banding on the rank insignia denotes the personnel holding a command position which is agnostic of rank.

title: Indonesian Navy


text:
Aleksandar Nikolić Hall

The Aleksandar Nikolić Hall (Хала Александар Николић), formerly known as Pionir Hall (Хала Пионир), is an indoor sports arena located in Palilula, Belgrade, Serbia. The official seating capacity of the arena is 8,000.

It was renamed in 2016 in honour of Serbian basketball player and coach Aleksandar Nikolić. The hall is well known for its frequent matches between different basketball clubs, especially Crvena Zvezda (Red Star Belgrade), Partizan, and foreign clubs.

Projected by Ljiljana and Dragoljub Bakić, the hall has been described as the "architectural icon of the postmodernist Belgrade".

History
Constructed in 1973 by Ljiljana and Dragoljub Bakić under a tight deadline, the modernist building won the architects a "Grand Prix of the Belgrade Architecture Salon". The structure was noted for its use of repeated elements and natural light.

The arena hosted the final round of EuroBasket 1975, the final of the EuroLeague's 1976–77 season (in which Maccabi Tel Aviv defeated Pallacanestro Varese), and the FIBA EuroCup's 1997–98 season final. In October 1989, the 16th World Judo Championships took place in Pionir Hall.

The arena hosted several preliminary round games of the EuroBasket 2005 and 2013 World Women's Handball Championship.

On 23 February 2016, the name of the arena was changed from Pionir Hall to Hall Aleksandar Nikolić, after the former basketball player and coach, Aleksandar "Aca" Nikolić.

In April 2017, the arena played host to the Davis Cup World Group Quarterfinal between Serbia and Spain, with Serbia winning the tie 4-1 to advance to the semifinals.

In 2019, the hall was thoroughly renovated, at a cost of €2 million euros. The renovation included new seats, telescopic stands, a new hardwood court and screens, new lighting, modernization of the ventilation and air-conditioning systems, and an increased seating capacity.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Aleksandar Nikolić Hall


text:
Mind Game (film)

Mind Game (マインド・ゲーム) is a 2004 Japanese adult-animated experimental comedy-drama film based on Robin Nishi's manga of the same name. It was planned, produced and primarily animated by Studio 4°C, and adapted and directed by Masaaki Yuasa in his directorial debut, with chief animation direction and model sheets by Yūichirō Sueyoshi, art direction by Tōru Hishiyama and groundwork and further animation direction by Masahiko Kubo.

It is unusual among features other than anthology films in using a series of disparate visual styles to tell one continuous story. As Yuasa commented in a Japan Times interview, "Instead of telling it serious and straight, I went for a look that was a bit wild and patchy. I think that Japanese animation fans today don't necessarily demand something that's so polished. You can throw different styles at them and they can still usually enjoy it."

The film received a cult audience and was well received, winning multiple awards worldwide, and has been praised by directors Satoshi Kon and Bill Plympton.

Plot
Nishi is a 20-year-old NEET from Osaka with dreams of becoming a comic book artist. One evening, he runs into his childhood crush, Myon, on the subway. She takes him to her family's yakitori restaurant, where she introduces him to her father, her elder sister Yan, and her fiancé Ryo. Two yakuza, Atsu and a senior yakuza whom Atsu calls Aniki (literally 'brother', a term used by yakuza to refer to each other), enter looking for Myon's father, who had ostensibly seduced and stolen Atsu's girlfriend.

As Atsu threatens Myon at gunpoint, Ryo jumps to her defense, but Atsu knocks him unconscious. Atsu then prepares to rape Myon, who cries out for Nishi. Atsu turns on a terrified Nishi, placing his pistol against Nishi's anus and firing when Nishi finally musters the courage to yell out a threat, killing him instantly. The senior yakuza, offended by Atsu's lack of control, fatally shoots him.

Nishi is sentenced to a limbo where he is forced to watch his death over and over again. He then encounters Kami-sama (God), a being whose physical image changes every fraction of a second. Kami-sama beats and insults Nishi, claiming to have created him on a whim for his own entertainment. He then directs Nishi into a red portal where he will disappear, but at the last moment, Nishi declares he wants to return to life, and runs toward the opposite blue portal. Kami-sama, impressed by Nishi's sheer will to live, lets him escape.

Nishi returns to the moment just before Atsu pulled the trigger. This time, Nishi seizes Atsu's gun with his buttocks, and fatally shoots him. He, Yan and Myon all speed off in the yakuza's car, leaving the father and Ryo (still unconscious) behind. The yakuza follow them, threatening to frame them for armed robbery and murder. The boss has his men lead the trio to a dead end on a bridge, but Nishi steers the car off the bridge, and they are swallowed by an enormous whale. Inside the whale, they meet an old man, who reveals he is a former yakuza who has been living inside the whale for more than 30 years. He shows them to the elaborate suspended house he has constructed over the 'sea' in the whale's belly. When Nishi's attempts to escape fail, the trio resign themselves to life inside the whale. Yan practices dancing and art, Myon practices swimming (a dream she gave up after reaching puberty), Nishi practices writing and drawing manga, and he and Myon finally become sexually intimate.

When the water level inside the whale begins rising, the old man explains that the whale is likely dying. They concoct a plan to make a motor boat using spare parts and fuel from the car they arrived in. On the day before the final match of the World Cup, the whale returns to Osaka and all four manage to escape.

As the four fly through the air, the film returns to its very first scene of Myon running from the yakuza, only this time her leg does not get caught in the door of the train, and the yakuza is left behind on the platform. This is followed by a lengthy montage, similar to that of the opening credits, showing the histories of the various characters. The phrase "This Story Has Never Ended" appears before the credits roll.

Cast
Voice cast
 * Koji Imada as Nishi
 * Sayaka Maeda as Myon
 * Takashi Fujii as Old Man (jiisan)
 * Seiko Takuma as Yan
 * Tomomitsu Yamaguchi as Ryō
 * Toshio Sakata as Father of Myon and Yan (Myon to Yan no chichi)
 * Jōji Shimaki as Yakuza Boss (yakuza no bosu)
 * Ken'ichi Chūjō as Atsu (yakuza)
 * Rintarō Nishi as Senior yakuza (Aniki. lit. "brother". A term used by yakuza to refer to each other).

Other crew
 * Kōji Morimoto – animation director
 * Shinichirō Watanabe – music producer

Production companies
 * Studio 4°C
 * Asmik Ace Entertainment
 * Beyond C.
 * Rentrack Japan Co. Ltd.

Other companies
 * Gainax – animation
 * Production I.G – animation

Production
The film's music, produced by Shinichirō Watanabe, as well as the score by Seiichi Yamamoto includes an image song by Fayray and piano performed by Yōko Kanno.

Release
The Japanese DVD release of the film includes English subtitles on the feature itself. In 2008, Madman Entertainment in Australia released the film on Region 4 DVD. According to Tekkonkinkreet director Michael Arias, there was consideration for a release of the film on R1 DVD but it fell through. In 2017, GKIDS announced that they licensed the film, which streamed on VRV Select on December 29 of that year, followed by a limited theatrical run in February 2018 and a home video release on August 28 of that year. On April Fool's Day in 2018, the movie aired on Adult Swim's Toonami block with Japanese audio and English subtitles.

Reception
The film has a 100% rating on Rotten Tomatoes, based on 12 reviews. The film's accolades include the Ōfuji Noburō Award at the 2005 Mainichi Film Awards and the Animation Division Grand Prize at the Japan Media Arts Festival in 2004, outranking nominee Howl's Moving Castle. Outside Japan, the film had its international premiere at the New York Asian Film Festival in June 2005. It had possibly its biggest success at the Fantasia Festival in Canada in July 2005, wherein it beat many live-action films to win all three of the festival's own jury awards it qualified for: Best Film, Best Director (tying with Gen Sekiguchi for Survive Style 5+) and Best Script. It also received an additional Special Award for "Visual Accomplishment", as well as placing first (Golden Prize) in the audience award for Best Animation Film and second (Silver Prize), behind Survive Style 5+, for Most Groundbreaking Film.

title: Mind Game (film)


text:
Template talk:Shannara

Usage
Add to bottom the of every article within Category:Shannara novels.

Sword of Shannara Trilogy?!
Where did this come from? I think it should be changed to "Original Shannara Series" or "Original Shannara Trilogy" ! Kumarhk 11:49, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Word/Void
Thanks for adding on the Word/Void onto this template. I think, given the strong continuity between Word/Void and Shanarra, we can get rid of the Word/Void template altogether and just use this one. Sraan 22:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Template title
How about "Novels in the Shannara universe by Terry Brooks" as a title? This would be accurate, even if we don't want to recognize Word/Void and Great Wars as truly a Shannara series. The current title is fairly confusing and wordy. Furthermore, the recognized title used on Terrybrooks.net for the original three novels is the Sword of Shannara Trilogy. It was even published as a trilogy recently. I realize that it was not originally called that when the books were written, but wouldn't that be the most official title as the official website uses it? I will bring it up on the Shannara page as well. Sraan 21:34, 8 September 2006 (UTC) Or "Novels in Terry Brooks' Shannara universe"? Sraan

title: Template talk:Shannara


text:
Talk:Everett Case

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 08:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Everett Case


text:
Talk:Willis Carto

Comment
the website williscarto has been hijacked ( if there is such a term ) pro-holocausters seem to have obtained the site and are doing a reverse carto site - almost funny mostly rehash of other proIsrael anti-antiholocaust - nothing new — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.105.80.92 (talk • contribs) 12:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Untitled
The explanation that the Sun Radio Network failed due to "financial difficulties" includes a great lie of omission. The Sun Radio Network failed because it lost affiliates as a result of an organized pressure campaign. I remember when this happened. When I find a source I will add that detail to the article. Hadding (talk) 07:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Death
Source http://www.counter-currents.com/2015/10/remembering-willis-carto-july-17-1926-october-26-2015/ --Dalex dalex (talk) 19:18, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
 * See Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive230. - Location (talk) 00:23, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * And WP:RSN - ELs aren't sources anyway, but as an editor claims it is,... Doug Weller (talk) 13:11, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I've asked about this one at the RSN thread David in DC (talk) 16:05, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, the SPLC is fine. That wasn't up when I checked yesterday. - Location (talk) 17:24, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * On second thought, it doesn't appear that they have confirmed that he has died but are reporting what unreliable sources have said. Not sure how to word that yet. - Location (talk) 17:28, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Unquantified/Generalizations
Claims/proclamations have to be Quantified; otherwise they are hearsay. And, the "I don't have to explain it", proves it is hearsay. Several "blue highlighted" words and phrases show a "definition" when rolled over by mouse. However, half of the "definitions" don't explain how it relates to the "page information". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.207.61.35 (talk) 18:28, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Willis Carto


text:
Talk:Oscar Charleston

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110925134027/http://www.nlbpa.com/charleston__oscar.html to http://www.nlbpa.com/charleston__oscar.html

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Date of death discrepancy
Info box has it as October 6, but the body has it as October 5. Does anyone have the cited reference book to check which it is? SS451 (talk) 07:52, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Oscar Charleston


text:
Talk:Semikhah

Given
Semicha is certainly still given, and rabbis are referred to as "having semicha", but the present-day semicha is not identical to THE semicha as given in the times of the Bible and Mishnah. By changing the title, you are suppressing obvious fact, and you will be reverted every time you do this. JFW | T@lk  19:08, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. The article is deeply confusing unless you already know the distinction. In a couple of lines, it says that medieval Ashkenazim introduced semicha meaning a diploma, then has a long discussion of the revival of semicha proper, then says that not all rabbis have "semicha" though most do. How can we make it clear that in this last bit we only mean diploma-semicha and not semicha proper? Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 15:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It is confusing because the truth of truths is we neither have rabbis nor smicha now-a-days. Explaining how this is true, yet we call people rabbi and say they have smicha would require an entire section. Basically the article needs to be reorganized so that it discusses Classical Smicha, then discusses how it was lost, discusses Modern Smicha and the differences, then talks about attempts to revive Classical Smicha and why they were made. (THis is all my humble opinion). ALso somebody should add Rav uManhig, which was created by Moshe Feinstein. It is smicha in Orach Chaim. Basejumper 19:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Questionable Statements
The following sentences in this article are problematic:

"seems to have died out"

"ceased to exist"

"chain from Moses onward was broken"

"it is likely that formal semicha came to an end"

These uncited assumptions are not shared by all historians. These opinions should either be removed or accompanied with the opposing view.

CWatchman (talk) 14:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes, they are shared by all authorities. Precisely when it happened can be debated, but that it happened cannot.  It's no more debatable than the roundness of the earth.  -- Zsero (talk) 17:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Please research recent historical revisions, recent discovery of preservation of tradition within the Lemba tribe, as well as the redefinition of halakhically acceptable transmission of Smicha.

 * Regardless whether it continued or no there are those who believe that it is just as historically verifiable as the Catholic/Episcopalian  so-called Apostolic Succession.

 * Terms such as "seems to" and "it is likely" are obviously unsourced information.

 * The one concrete term "ceased to exist" is just as totally unprovable as the Apostolic Succession and requires the same element of faith to accept as proven. But after all, isn't that what religion is all about? Faith? Who am I to question the Catholic historian who believes he has evidence of an unbroken succession, or an historian who believes he has evidence of an unbroken Smicha? The remaining fact is they believe it and the burden is upon us to disprove it, which we cannot. Mr Zsero I have looked over your talk page and you are a very bright and quick witted individual. I am sure you can discover a reasonable way to state that while most do not believe it continued there are some that do. It is just that simple. I will leave this to your fluent and concise editing skill to make whatever changes are necessary.

CWatchman (talk) 20:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Good grief. What on earth have the Lemba got to do with it?  They certainly have no semicha.  Semicha could only be given in Israel.  There is no question at all that by the time of the Geonim there were no longer any musmachim.  The only question is exactly when this happened, which is why we have terms like "seems to" and "likely".  The Geonim wrote of the semicha as extinct, and of course so did the Rishonim.  What recent research could possibly change this?  This is Wikipedia, not Uncyclopedia.  -- Zsero (talk) 21:22, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Your enthusiasm for this subject seems overdone.

Have you not read those redefining what is halakhically acceptable in transferring Smicha?

Concerning your statement about the Lemba's... there is the continuing tradition among the Lemba's of ordination succession. Some are Judaic and some Messianic. Claims of Semicha succession among them cannot presently be verified since it is but oral tradition but please remember they also had oral tradition of being Cohanim which DNA testing has shown conclusively they carry the Cohanim gene. May also their claim of succession be true? These are not Uncyclopedia scholars making these discoveries. These are bona Fide historians and scientists. Relative to being outside of Israel may I quote the Semicha article in question? "An interesting point of Jewish Law arises in that Rav Yisroel raised the question how could the Tribe of Reuven have kept the semicha alive, since they were outside the Land of Israel and the semicha can be granted only in Land of Israel. He answered that since the Bnei Reuven had been distant from the rest of Klal Yisroel before this ruling had been accepted, there is no reason to assume that they accepted this ruling, and there was a chance that they were still keeping the institution of semicha alive."

There is also claim of Semicha surviving in Europe.

What of the theorem that in such a time the Rabbinate is not possible the Father becomes Rabbi of the home passing a type of Semicha to his sons through the transmission of Torah and the embrace.

Apostolic Succession is claimed unbroken although there were YEARS the Papal Chair was vacant. Yet they believe the transmission continued unbroken when the next Bishop resumed the Papal Chair.

You seem to be unaware of the explosion of various branches of Judaism that has sprung up within the last two decades. They do not all follow the Talmud that you are basing your assumptions on.

The bottom line is this: There are those that believe their is sufficient evidence that Semicha was unbroken and you cannot disprove them anymore then they can conclusively verify it.

I am a bit stymied as to why there seems to be an anger in your tone. I am trying to be as amicable as possible and even said I would leave editing of this article to you. Please try to bit a bit more open minded. You are a very intelligent person and have very much to offer not only this article but Wikipedia as a whole.

CWatchman (talk) 22:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Nobody is "redefining" the halacha. The gemara is explicit, and on a matter of halacha it is by definition authoritative.  This is not a place for lunatic fringe theories.  -- Zsero (talk) 22:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your scholarly reply and amicable responses. Have a pleasant life.

CWatchman (talk) 22:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Mechanism of Semicha
It seems to me that this article is lacking a section on the actual mechanism of classical semicha- how many people can receive it from one person, how many people a person can receive it from, etc. I would really like add this section, but I don't have the time. Any takers? Ayinyud 10:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Unbroken Chain of Transmission
Please do not forget that some believe semicha survived the centuries as "The Unbroken Chain of Transmission." In centuries where actual laying on of hands was not performed it is believed semicha continued through rabbinical appointment as well as through the transmission of the teaching of the Torah. Please do not forget the spirit of the Judaic people that has never been broken throughout the centuries. There are a few sources claiming semicha was transmitted privately and in secret just the same as their faith was secretly observed even though pretending to convert to Catholocism, Islam, etc. and while this may be a result of wishful thinking, this certainly does seem to be a possibility worthy of further research. Dr. C
 * "Some" believe anything. This is Wikipedia, not Uncyclopedia.  -- Zsero (talk) 21:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Bunch of Crock!
Who posted this bunch of crock that Semicha was broken? It's this kind of anti-semitism that belongs in Natzi camps! Like was written above, why can the Catholics boast Apostolic Succession, although there are no historically accurate data to back them up, and yet Semicha, with historical backing, can not? Remmo (talk) 01:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

And since when is "ordination" a requirement for being a leading Jewish rabbi? There are many laymen "balebatim" who have semicha and are officially "ordained" but do not practice as rabbis at all, and there are other Jewish religious leaders who are simply born into families, like the sons of Hasidic Rebbes who become the leading rabbi/s without any formal "ordination" and, indeed, the very notion of the "greatness" of "ordination" in the Western Christian world is non-Jewish, and alien to the classical requirements whereby a Jewish spiritual leader should be first and foremost a very great Talmid Chacham, often one who has published rabbinic literature and an admired Tzadik (hopefully). This is the way rabbis have historically been defined and recognized by Jews and Judaism, and the way all known Jewish books, magazines, and articles write about them.Izak. Remmo (talk) 01:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Oh lawd, they're all coming out of the woodwork now. Or is it the same nutter using different names?  -- Zsero (talk) 06:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The Sanhedrin, or Supreme Court, of which Maimonides spoke did not come into existence until well into the second temple period. Though the rabbis claimed that the line of semicha (the transmission of authority) descended in an unbroken line from Moses down to them,(playing the devils advocate) there was really no more evidence that this authority extended beyond Joshua then there supposedly is that it extended beyond 70 AD. Maimonides and a few medieval Jewish commentators believed the line of semicha had been broken when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and people today believe this. In other words they accept that it was unbroken from Moshe to the Rabbi's, which there was no proof of, but do not believe it survived 70 AD, for which there is ample proof it did. Remmo (talk) 07:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Editing Needed
This article is parsimonious in content and fails to deliver a neutral point of view. Rather then barging in selfishly editing I would prefer to civilly discuss this matter further and attempt a joint edit text that we can then propose on the basis of our mutual agreement. CWatchman (talk) 17:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not going to happen, because the position you are trying to promote is complete bollocks. It's not even a notable fringe theory.  It doesn't belong in this article.  -- Zsero (talk) 17:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This position is NOT "complete bollocks." I AGREE it is not a fringe theory but it CERTAINLY is notable ! You should read more. You would be surprised what you have missed since grade school.

Remmo (talk) 01:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Even if it was not a notable fringe theory, if you continue to provoke people to defend it, it will soon become popular just from the exposure. Nothing makes people come out and speak up more then persecution. Natzi's should know that by now.

Remmo (talk) 01:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Can we define who has the right to set standards in semicha? Are we going by orthodox Judaism, Reform, Conservative, Messianic, or some other version? Once semicha is tied to a specific sect it will be easier to write about it. Perhaps someone wants to add in the current viewpoints and clearly label each perspective. Entara Lyon (talk) 14:41, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Leave it alone
Remmo, I am assuming from some things you have written that you have read some of my previous material. If so you should know that a pacific approach will win a permanent war while an aggressive win will only retain it's victory as long as you persist in protective aggression. You have not won Zsero ...you have only alienated him. If you fail to aggressively guard this article he will eventually slip back in. It may be moments, it may be days, it may be months, it may be years. He will return and make the changes he feels are correct. Revision of history is sometimes necessary but one has to take the rebuttal until it becomes accepted. Yesterdays heresy is today's orthodoxy. Yesterdays revelation is today's common sense.

Remmo, Zsero, feel free to civilly debate this off-Wiki by writing me at: CWatchman2@gmail.com

Zsero, I apologize if I have caused trouble. You are simply adhering to the majority viewpoint. I am the heretic. I understand that. However, I ask not that you accept my heresy, I only ask that acknowledge you understand it.

Thank you,

CWatchman (talk) 23:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia policies and guidlines
Heterodoxy and Orthodoxy of opinion and historicity notwithstanding, every article on wikipedia, inlcuding this one, must adhere to our guidelines and policies on verifiability, reliable sources, and point-of-view neutrality. As per WP:NPOV, fringe theories are usually not considered appropriate for articles as they stand. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 23:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Double Talk
Verifiability? Reliable sources? Point of view neutrality?

Are the comments "seems to have" and " likely" verifiable?
 * Depends on context, but usually not. -- Avi (talk) 23:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Are phantom sources reliable?
 * Which source is phantom? -- Avi (talk) 23:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Is accepting Rambams word a neutral point of view?
 * Actually, as the pre-eminent sage of his era, yes. Neutral point of view does not mean a lobotomized point of view. Please read the policy carefully. Thanks! -- Avi (talk) 23:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Remmo (talk) 23:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Bravo, Zsero
Your parsing is MUCH better this time around.

CWatchman (talk) 23:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Avraham,

Thank you so much for your instruction. I am somewhat new to Wikipedia.

Please notice that I have at NO TIME interjected ANY of my opinions in ANY articles. A simple review of my edit history will reveal this.

Concerning the Semicha article please take note that all my editing has been on the Talk Page ONLY discussing my position accompanied with requests to assist me in making the article a bit more NPOV by removing uncited assumptions and perhaps to add little blip of information stating a small minority do not adhere to the broken Semicha theory. At no time have I attempted any of these changes myself. I am leaving that in more Wiki-experienced hands then my own.

(There are various groups that I could cite that are much more adamant about this and although I do not wish to advertise a fringe theory is there some way we could briefly mention their existence which is a concrete reality?)

Coincidently Unbroken Semicha is but a sideline research as my forte is in Psychology, English literature, and Religion.

Again I have not added anything nor reverted anything from this article confining all my requests and comments to the Talk Page to where I understood such comments should be confined. If I am in error I humbly apologize and submissively accept proper instruction in this matter.

Thank you for your assistance.

CWatchman (talk) 19:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

In reviewing my rebuttal concerning perpetuity of Semicha I realize it is a hard read. I was very tired the day I wrote it. I have re-written it in a more readable form. It is still not perfect but at least it is readable. I can add citations to it later. I kind of hesitate to paste it here in the talk page, since it is somewhat lengthy, but I think it is important. It is just a basic sketch. I call it "In Search of the Unbroken Semicha" :

CWatchman (talk) 19:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Ps. I am not sure how lengthy something is or is not allowed to be. I am still new to Wikipedia. But I am sure someone will let me know :)

In Search of the Unbroken Chain of Semicha
One of the most intriguing stories ever told is that of the ancient chain of Semicha.

Today it is almost universally accepted that the chain of Semicha was broken around the fifth century AD and was forever lost. Recent research, however, has uncovered at least four remarkable sources of possible intact Semicha.

Semicha is the rabbinical ordination classically transmitted by the laying on of hands. Moses ordained Joshua and the seventy elders through this transmission of authority (Num 27:15-23, Num 11: 16-25, Deut. 34: 9). Their successors in turn ordained others. This hands on transmission continued until around the fifth century at which time it is believed to have ceased to exist.

But G-d said Semicha was unto all generations forever. Is G-d not capable of preserving this gift He so graciously bestowed upon his people. Without Semicha there is no succession of Sanhedrin nor a priesthood. Without the priesthood there is no building of the Temple. Without the Temple to where will Messiah come ? (Rambam said, “If there is one with uninterrupted semicha, you do not require everyone’s agreement”. Jewish people today believe in the absolute transmission of Torah and Mesorah from Rabbineau Moshe to the present day but believe Semicha ceased centuries ago. But if Hashem preserved the Torah why could He not also preserve Semicha? There are three sources of possible Semicha to consider: (1) A Lost Tribe of Israel (Lemba's) (2) Isaac Ben Luria (3) Remnant in Europe (4) Teacher/student transmission. Today I will give more space to sources one and four beginning with the first source.

(1) A LOST TRIBE OF ISRAEL: THE LEMBA

" I would like to mention that we, the Jewish community are guilty--guilty because we never accepted what the Lemba had always maintained...until [the] genetic proof recently ; that their story was a part of ours. We are guilty because we rejected them. " (Dr. Rudo Mathiva).

Approximately 2,500 years ago, a group of Jews left Judah settling in Yemen populating a city called Senna. Unfavorable conditions compelled them to journey many miles until settling in and around Zimbabwe. Similar to other Jews during the Diaspora they assimilated local customs and genes from the local gene pool. For centuries these people passed down their tradition to their children and adamantly claimed they were Jewish. Unlike the locals they believed in one God, Shabbot, Kosher dietary laws, circumcision, the lunar calendar, Torah, and many other Jewish customs. They not only claimed to be Jewish and of the Cohanim but they also boasted an unbroken Semicha. Academia laughed at these black people proclaiming to be Jews. They were in a delusion...or were they they? In 1997 critical research data indicated that a large proportion of contemporary Jewish Cohanim (those claiming ancestry from the priestly line of Aaron the High Priest) share a set of Y chromosomal genetic markers, known as the Cohen Modal Haplotype, which has been determined to have derived from a single common ancestor dating back to the very time in which the Torah recorded Aaron existed. Scientific calculations which were based on the high rate of genetic similarity of today's Cohanim resulted in the highest "paternity-certainty" rate that has been ever been recorded in population genetics studies. Scientists found that 45 percent of Ashkenazi priests and 56 percent of Sepharic priests have the cohen genetic signature, while in Jewish populations in general the frequency rate is 3 to 5 percent. When they tested the priestly tribe of Lemba they were astonished to discover they had 53 percent! They had unique genetic markers found only in the Jewish communities. Dr. Tudar Parfitt says "It turned out what they are saying about themselves is substantially correct." Geneticist Trevor Jenkins said the tests turned out to "prove consistent with Lemba oral history." Science had conclusively proven the Lemba carried the Priestly genes dating back to the time of Aaron and Moses just as they had always proclaimed.

Numerous other historical traditions they proclaimed turned out to be true. The unknown city that the Lemba claimed they journeyed from was discovered ("Journey to the Vanished City", Dr. Tudor Parfitt). An artifact they claimed they possessed and lost hundreds of years ago was discovered in a an ancient cave. Dr. Mathiva said, "Old maps of the Holy Land have now revealed that there was a place called Lemba way back BCE." She further stated that the Jewish community was left with a moral dilemma as to their responsibility and future obligations to the Lemba and concluded saying, "Now that we know, can we continue to pretend they do not exist?"

We have an even GREATER dilemma. If their claims of Jewish origin, Cohanim decent, names of lost cities, etc. proved to be true....what about their claim to possess an unbroken line of Semicha!!! They have persistently claimed an unbroken succession of ordination...the Semicha.

Please keep in mind Semicha has alledgedly been conferred on clans of Lemba that were Cohanim as well as those that were not but were nevertheless considered Jewish. Those recieving Semicha are considered Priests although most are born into into the Priesthood as well as recieving Semicha.

Magdel le Roux says the Lemba still has the priesthood to this very day and the priest traditionally passes his teaching and priesthood on to his son in perpetual succession. He reports the priest said to him:

"The succession is just from our forefathers right up to this generation and it will just continue like that. You see there is just a house of priesthood like in the Old Testament and this priesthood is not something of imposition of something you do to yourself. It was something bestowed to a particular house by G-d." (D:A:4; italics mine).

Would such a Semicha be halackally acceptable? It may be time for us to reconsider what is halackally acceptable transmission of Semicha when faced with dispersion and hardship. Even Elijah when in exile accepted food from non-kosher unclean birds until such a time he could resume a normal kosher life. Rabbi Yisroel Shklover said a dispersed group distant from the rest of Klal Yisroel before certain halachic Rabbinical rules were declared would be exempt from those rules not having accepted nor heard them.

One thing is for certain...the Lemba and their claims of Semicha are here...and they are not going to just "go away."

(2) ISAAC BIN LURIA

Isaac Bin Luria (ARI) was a mystic whom many felt was a holy man with divine favor. He claimed the prophet Elijah, who had been his godfather in his babyhood, paid him frequent visits, initiating him into sublime truths. Rabbi Chayim Vital said the ARI increased his piety, asceticism, purity and holiness until he reached a level where Eliyahu HaNavie (Elijah the prophet) would constantly reveal himself to him, speaking to him "mouth to mouth," teaching him these mysteries. " According to scripture Elijah was one of two men who had never tasted death. This would not have been a "phantom" but the real Elijah. If this is true then there would be no doubt Semicha continued because the ARI's line is still presently extent. However this is impossible to verify and smacks a bit as being Quixotic but is still an avenue for the mystically minded to explore.

(3) REMNANT IN EUROPE

It is claimed that Semicha survived intact in a remnant of Jewish people in Europe. A small group of Messianic Jews as well as independent orthodox groups claim to have received preserved Semicha from this and other lines. Further research is needed before I can accurately publish the details which I can do at a later date.

Also we must not forget there have been many laymen "balebatim" who have semicha and are officially "ordained" but do not practice as rabbis at all.

4) TEACHER/STUDENT TRANSMISSION

We must seriously consider the theorem that in times when persecution prohibited the existence of ordained Rabbi’s that the father automatically became Rabbi of the home and passed his rabbinical blessing to his son (or children) until such time the classical form of Semicha was able to be resumed (after all Rabbi does mean "teacher"). Perhaps we need to reconsider what is halackally acceptable transmission of Semicha when faced with insurmountable persecution and threat of death.

It is possible, no PROBABLE, that in time of unavoidable secrecy and threat of death that Hashem accepted the following as transmission of Semicha : Transmission of Torah from teacher to student (or father to son) consisting of Torah teaching, pronunciation of blessing, and the physical embrace and/or kiss. This would have been an acceptable link in the unbroken chain of Semichut until such a time that the classical Semicha could be resumed by Rambam's suggestion of all the sages of Israel coming together, unanimously ordaining judges, and then resuming classical Semicha. This is the most practical and pragmatic approach. If, as many believe, there was an unbroken chain of transmission of Torah, there by necessity must be a teacher to transmit it and a student to receive it, and this done in perpetual succession.

Consider the precision that the Torah was preserved in and passed on in times of aggressive prohibition. Consider the intricate, detailed, typologies involved in Pesach observance. Consider the multitude of details in Jewish observances accurately handed down from generation to generation of families forbidden to observe such custom even at the threat of death and extinction. Do you...COULD you...imagine for one single moment that some Jewish family or families failed to pass on something as critical as Semicha? The vast interactive, connecting, branching, web of of Jewish culture has spun a geometric weave of cultural preservation in the metropolitans, prison camps, jungles, and villages throughout the far reaches of the earth. To think the anointed, ethereal substance of Semicha came to an end is to strike the very heart of faith as well as the credibility of human potential. Hashem is much wiser then we could ever imagine and what He has established He has the ability to preserve. There are no DNA tests, no historical discoveries, no law in the land, nor religious body that can prove to be as dependable a source of evidence as the way and word of Hashem. He has preserved the Jewish people, their traditions, and the Cohanim in the brutal face of Dispersion, holocausts, prison, and centuries of exile. Hitler could not burn her traditions, Nazi's could not imprison them, and exile could not silence her voice. Through the stygian darkness of night by the candles of Shabbot precious oral history and religious traditions were secretly passed down from generation to generation as her persecutors stalked her doors firing their brutal ammunition over her weary head. When the smoke of historical debates have cleared and skeptics reluctantly lift their heads from the fox holes...before them standing undaunted will be proof of Hashem's perpetual Semicha...to all generations forever.

"THEIR ANOINTING shall surely be an EVERLASTING priesthood throughout your generations." (Ex. 40: 15)

CWatchman (talk) 19:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Still looking for reliable sources
I'm still looking for sources on this. I did come across one article suggesting that the semicha may have survived until the early 12th century; the author claims that even when there were no yeshivot - or any Jewish life to speak of - in Israel itself, semuchim from Lebanon and Syria would travel there in order to pass on semicha to their students, and it was only the closure of the Damascus yeshiva in the 12th century that finally brought the chain to an end. I'm still reading it and will have to check the sources. It probably deserves at least a footnote. -- Zsero (talk) 20:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Zsero

 * Would you be so kind as to email the information or the link to that article.
 * Thanks.
 * CWatchman (talk) 10:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

 * It's here. Some of the evidence he relies on the most seems clearly capable of other interpretations.  -- Zsero (talk) 14:24, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Zsero, I am interested as to what else you have come up with. Please share. Thank you.

CWatchman (talk) 21:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Messianic Nasarini's
Although it is not yet known if indeed they are one of the Ten Lost Tribes, the Nasarini's of Malabar are said to to indeed be of Hebrew heritage. (Ref. Dr. Asahel Grants' 'The Nestorians or the Lost Tribes of Israel' ). Known as the Syrian-Malabar, or Saint Thomas Christians, they follow a Hebrew-Syriac Christian tradition saturated with many Jewish elements. They are some of the earliest people who joined Christianity in India and also with many Malabar Jews from the pre-Christian Diaspora as well as the post Christian Diaspora (40 AD to the fourth century after which it is claimed Semicha ceased). The Saint Thomas Nasari 's themselves have a consistent tradition that their church was founded by the very early original Nazarene Church, most specifically by Saint Thomas. Many Pharisee's also converted to Christianity and joined the early Nazarene Church.

The Syrian-Malabar Church can allegedly trace it's ordination succession person by person all the way back to the original Church. I have seen these ancient documents and have spoken with Greek Orthodox scholars who insist these Syrian records are are historically accurate. If this be so then, considering those who already had Semicha when becoming part of the Nasarini, this  would be another unbroken chain of ordination going back to Moshe.

Although Rabbi Yisroel Shklover said that under certain circumstances certain groups would be exempt from the halachic Rabbinical rules I am aware that no Orthodox Torah observant Jew would consider such a Semicha as being even close to being halachic but it would be a very interesting research for a messianic observant Jew to explore.

CWatchman (talk) 04:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Unbroken Semicha in Yemen?
There are communities making claims, some with DNA tests backing their claims, of descent from the lost tribes and keeping Torah the whole time: Jews of kurdistan, gruzia, mountain Jews, and most notably : the Habbani Jews from Yemen as well as other Yemenite Jewish tribes.

I have also been told that they do not necessarily have to even know it as "smicha" because any permission to judge dinei knasot or nefashot would be sufficient.

One Rabbi is checking out sources of European Rabbi's with traditions surrounding them of an unbroken chain of Semicha.

I just find it incredible that there is no serious research into this. We now have access to research tools unavailable to Rabbi Yisroel Shklover and his associates who were so willing to risk their lives to search for an unbroken Chain of Semicha.

CWatchman (talk) 03:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Spelling
The correct transliteration of the word is Smicha, without the "e."The name of the article should be changed accordingly--Gilabrand (talk) 14:18, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

 * No, it isn't. It's a sheva na`.  -- Zsero (talk) 18:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but "Smicha" is just an abreviated slang for "Semicha" just as "Shlom" is an abreviated slang for "Shalom".

CWatchman (talk) 03:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I heard that 'Lom was an abreviated slang for Shalom. Is anyone familiar with this slang and where it may be being used?

Thanks

CWatchman (talk) 03:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The word is pronounced "smicha." Anyone who claims otherwise doesn't know Hebrew. --Gilabrand (talk) 19:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It is a sheva na`; end of story. -- Zsero (talk) 05:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Any shva at the beginning of a word MUST be na (with the possible exception of the word shtayim -- see the RaDaK in both the Michlul and the Sefer HaShoroshim regarding its etymology). The pronounciation is Səmicha, but as the schwa is never used in typography, the current spelling is appropriate, and standard in English. -- Avi (talk) 12:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Could we change the spelling to reflect the Wikipidia own article on transliteration of Hebrew? The word should be spelled "Semikhah". This is supposedly an encyclopedia article, and while popular misspelling should be noted, I personally would prefer to see the correct one Romabers (talk)

After more than a week and no movements on the correction, I've changed the spelling to the proper and commonly accepted "semikhah" (as is evidenced by the entries in every encyclopedia, and also by the "Further reading" section in this entry. If anyone wants to revert the spelling back, I would like to hear a solid and well sourced argument for that. Romabers (talk)

Requested move
Semicha → Semikhah — I've changed the spelling to the proper and commonly accepted "semikhah" (as is evidenced by the entries in every encyclopedia, and also by the "Further reading" section in this entry. For example see also: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O101-Semikhah.html http://www.bookrags.com/tandf/semikhah-1-tf/ http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9780631187288_chunk_g978063118728820_ss1-66 Romabers (talk) 17:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅. Jafeluv (talk) 10:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Romabers, Please elaborate as to why you felt that the spelling "Semikhah" was more correct than "Semicha."

This request is not argumentive. I really want to know more about the reasoning and political correctness behind the change.

Thank you very much. CWatchman (talk) 18:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Romabers seems to have consulted encylopaedias, instead of people who actually use the word every day. I have done no survey, but I'd bet a small sum that if you surveyed English-speakers who actually have semicha, or who use the word in conversation at least twice a week, you'd find the vast majority spell it with a C rather than a K.  Some would spell it "smicha" and some "semicha", maybe some with an H at the end, but very few would use a K.  That said, it's all a matter of taste and preference; there is no "correct" transliteration.  -- Zsero (talk) 19:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not sure who are those people that have a "semicha", that Zsero refering to. I just did a quick check of the major rabbinical schools: YU calls it "Hag Hasemikhah" http://www.yu.edu/riets/index.aspx?id=44492&linkidentifier=id&itemid=44492 ; JTS (conservative), does not confer semikhah, however the prevailing spelling on their site is with KH, Reconstructionists, do not have a semikhah either, however, their Mekhinah is spelled with KH; HUC (reform), uses "semikhah";now to the smaller schools: YCT - "semikha"; ITJ -"semikhah". The "Tradition" magazine (orthodox) uses both, with the KH spelling prevalent 3:1 to CH; the "Ideals" (MO) uses "semikha". So, who are those mysterious people with "semicha"?Romabers (talk) 18:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I am most confused by this new spelling. Most of the "what links here" are redirects from Semicha, which is how most of the world spells this. If you insist on a "kh" for the Kaph, then I suggest you make this consistent with the spelling of Halakha and call it Semikha. Yoninah (talk) 20:45, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed, it should be changed. Care to submit a request?Romabers (talk)
 * I've outlined my reasons for the change in the "Spelling" section above. I do not think any of them are political.Romabers (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:29, 14 April 2010 (UTC).

Request for comment
Semikhah → Semicha I would like to gain consensus on the spelling of this page's name. Last September, the page was retitled Semikhah on the basis of one editor's opinion. In my experience, the most common spelling in English parlance is Semicha, which gets 55,300 Google hits as opposed to Semikhah, which gets 28,300 Google hits. Although above, Romabers cited the preference of encyclopedias for the Semikhah spelling, Semicha is the way the general public (and rabbis themselves) spell it. Tellingly, the What Links Here list for this page reveals that the Semicha spelling accounts for a hefty amount of redirects. Thank you for your input. Yoninah (talk) 23:01, 14 April 2010 (UTC) I would have to disagree, naturally. No one is claiming that CH spelling is anachronistic, it is just incorrect. Please see my answer to Zsero on the usage of the word above.Romabers (talk)
 * Support The spelling with c is more used and not anachronistic. I support the move. -- Avi (talk) 14:28, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Based on the paucity of replies to this post, as well as discussions elsewhere about transliteration, could I just go ahead and move this page to Semikha? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 20:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Though "semikha" would probably be correct according to the rules of transliteration (both Modern Israeli and the Academy Hebrew_alphabet), people who are not familiar with the pronunciation of Hebrew would not know where to put stress in the word. It is virtually guaranteed, that English speakers would put the stress on the wrong syllable. I really do not know a good solution to that problem, except to leave the final "h". Romabers (talk)
 * I don't think that an English speaker is going to learn pronunciation from a transliteration. Besides, most English speakers pronounce it se-mi-kha. We can put the pronunciation key in the lead. I would just like to come up with a consistent spelling standard to match Wikipedia's existant spelling of words such as halakha. BTW, Wikipedia articles seem to drop the "h" on a regular basis, as: Rosh Hashana, Shmita, chevra kadisha (the first word ends with a hei), yeshiva, etc. Yoninah (talk) 19:09, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, that a consistent spelling would be preferable. However the Wikipedia is not consistent: Halakha and Shemita are without final "h", OTOH Aggadah, Rosh Hashanah, and Haggadah of Pesach with "h". So, for all the reasons outlined above (Spelling, Requested move), I would rather see "h" added to the other articles, then dropping it here.Romabers (talk)
 * Romabers, your idea of transliterating follows scholarly guidelines, while my idea follows popular usage. Meanwhile, Wikipedia pages have developed haphazardly, depending on who wrote them. I don't think we can start re-titling pages based on this discussion between the two of us. I guess I'll back off for now and wait for a larger panel of editors to set consistent spelling guidelines for all Jewish content pages. Cordially, Yoninah (talk) 21:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

The Hebrew MOS seems to indicate that kh should be used for כ, however _h should only be used for words that end in a segol or tzere preceding the ה, not a kamatz as in this case. Therefore it should be "semikha". Perhaps we should centralize discussion regarding the MOS in order to figure out whether to standardize article name changes. Valley2 city ‽ 17:53, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

POV tagging on "Not all present-day rabbis have semikhah"
I reinstate the unanswered objections of Avi from above. As of this diff, there seems to be a serious POV problem that happens to exist in an uncited state, particularly in the section "Not all present-day rabbis have semikhah". Statements like "Orthodox Jews do not see Conservative or Reform Rabbis as being "Rabbis", and are usually careful to quality the title with the movement from which it originated." or "A "Rabbi" without qualified is assumed to be Orthodox, and hence, legitimate." might not reflect reality. I don't think that these statements, uncited, could continue to exist. There are Orthodox Jews of various opinions and I've talked to Chabad Rabbis who acknowledge the legitimacy of Rabbis of the Conservative movement and don't attach modifiers to them. Anyway, Shavuot Sameach. Valley2 city ‽ 17:37, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Additions
added the following, based on a 1950 source and using an editorialising style ("it is from this angle that we can start to understand"):

 * In Jewish law, however, owing to the idea ot theocracy which is the basis of Jewish religion, law and religion are identical, with the result that the adjusting of disputes was not only a legal matter but also a religious one. This identification of law with religion meant that judges must not only posses legal knowledge and aptitude but also spiritual qualifications, and that the appointment of judges was not merely a civil ceremony but also a religious one. This idea lies at the root of Semikhah, and it is from this angle that we can start to understand the full significance of it.

 * The first reference in the Bible to the appointment of Hebrew judges is found in Exodus where Jethro proposed to Moses a plan for relieving him of the unbearable onerous task of acting as a judge every day from dawn to dusk, in the people's civil disputes.

Can I suggest a rewrite with more recent sources? JFW | T@lk  08:47, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Semikhah


text:
Konrad Wallenrod

Konrad Wallenrod is an 1828 narrative poem, in Polish, by Adam Mickiewicz, set in the 14th-century Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

Mickiewicz wrote it, while living in St. Petersburg, Russia, in protest against the late-18th-century partitions of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth by the Russian Empire, the Kingdom of Prussia, and the Habsburg monarchy.

Mickiewicz had been exiled to St. Petersburg for his participation in the Philomaths organization at Vilnius University.

The poem helped inspire the Lithuanian and Polish November 1830 Uprising against Russian rule. Though its subversive theme was apparent to most readers, the poem escaped censorship due to conflicts among the censors and, in the second edition, a prefatory homage to Tsar Nicholas I. Though Mickiewicz later disparaged the work, its cultural influence in Poland persists.

Plot
In a preface, Mickiewicz briefly outlines the history of the region, describing the interactions among the Lithuanians, Prussians, Poles, and Russians. The following six cantos tell the story of Wallenrod, a fictional Lithuanian pagan captured and reared as a Christian by his people's long-standing enemies, the Order of Teutonic Knights. He rises to the position of Grand Master, but is awakened to his heritage by a mysterious minstrel singing at an entertainment event. He then seeks vengeance by deliberately leading the Knights into a major military defeat. It transpires that Wallenrod has a wife, Aldona, who has been living in seclusion. Konrad secretly meets her. The Knights discover his treason and sentence him to death; Aldona refuses to flee with him, because she had previously sworn allegiance to God. Konrad Wallenrod commits suicide by drinking poison.

Cultural influences
The concept of "Wallenrodism" (Wallenrodyzm)—the striking of a treacherous, possibly suicidal, blow against an enemy—and certain powerful fragments of the poem have become an enduring part of the Lithuanian and Polish psyche and found resonance in the independence struggles of the two nations in the 19th (1831, 1863) and 20th centuries. The poem included a reference to Machiavelli's dictum that a leader must be both a lion and a fox. Its encouragement of what would later be called "patriotic treason" created controversy, since its elements of deception and conspiracy were thought incompatible with Christian and chivalric values. Mickiewicz was taken aback by the strength of the public response to his poem and regretted its publication; before his death, he expressed frustration at his financial inability to buy back and burn every copy of what he described as a mere "political pamphlet."

Konrad Wallenrod has twice been turned into an opera: as I Lituani (The Lithuanians), by Italian composer Amilcare Ponchielli (1874); and as Konrad Wallenrod,  by Polish composer Władysław Żeleński (1885). The Polish composer Frédéric Chopin may have based his Ballade No.1 in G minor on this poem.

The Polish author Joseph Conrad, who had been christened Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski, may have selected the second part of his pen name as an hommage to the poem's protagonist. Mickiewicz's poem influenced Conrad's frequent explorations of the conflict between publicly attested loyalty and a hidden affiliation with a national cause.

title: Konrad Wallenrod


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roy Cheramie Former Covington Lion

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. [[smoddy ]] 17:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Roy Cheramie Former Covington Lion
This Guy was Evidently some kind of Football Player but he is Not Notable Enough! (1986-1989) 19:09, 24 August 1991 (UTC)

 * delete. Hilarious, but NN and Not Worthy of Existence. Fang Aili 19:19, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * DeLeTe. Zoe 23:13, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn but funny. -- Etacar11   02:56, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete I placed this on speedy; an admin should go there and end this article's misery. Marskell 16:39, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * delete, seriously... Seriously Not Notable. Wangi 23:54, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - not notable - Tεx  τ  urε  16:42, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text: Talk:Rosevelt Colvin

title: Talk:Rosevelt Colvin