text:
Talk:Billionaire

year 2021?
From the first paragraph: "According to Forbes Magazine, the year 2021 saw not only the biggest increase in billionaires around the world..." Either this sentence is wrong or my hangover is worse than I thought.

71.7.53.13 (talk) 19:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

USD?
Why is a billionaire only one who is worth US$1bn? Take Gina Rinehart, for instance – she recently became worth over a billion dollars AUD. Is she not a billionaire, then? --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 23:39, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
 * IIRC, "billion" means a million million in British Commonwealth nations, and as far as I know, no one claims to have that many Australian or Canadian dollars, or British pounds for that matter. So millionaires would be multinational term but "billionaire" is particular to American English. (Arnoldlover 19:54, 18 March 2006 (UTC)) ... Just checked my OED.  One thousand million is the French/American definition, not the British/Australian one. (Arnoldlover 19:57, 18 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Canadians definitely favour the American definition of Billionaire, and there are definitely Canadian Billionaires (though I'm not sure any are so close to the line as to not alsobe worth $1 billion USD. WilyD 17:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The title of the article should technically be 'People who are worth more than $1 billion USD', but billionaire is in common usage, and the article states the qualification very clearly. If you change the qualification to 'People who are worth 1 Billion units of their own currency' then it will be an unfair comparison. For example, 1 dollar is worth more than 100 Japanese Yen, so 10 million USD would make you a Japanese billionaire. In addition, where can you draw the line as to being 'so close'? $999 million? $950 million? The only obvious line is at exactly $1 billion. There is, of course, nothing to prevent alternative articles being written on 'People who are worth more than 950 Million Canadian dollars', and seeing whether the Wiki Community thinks the article necessary. Blowski 13:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

A centimetre is 1/100 of a metre. A centibillion should be 1/100 of a billion, - 10 million (US billion), or 10 thousand million (10 milliard) with French or 'old' British understanding of the term. Thus, this article refers to who was the first person to have in excess of 10 million currency units from a US perspective; from a Turkish perspective, where at one point the exchange rate was a million Turkish lira to the British pound, this is a rather easy target. —the preceding comment is by 82.32.83.216 (talk • contribs) 21:07, 14 May 2006: Please sign your posts!.

"So millionaires would be multinational term but "billionaire" is particular to American English." Not in my experience. I'm British and the American usage is Billion and billionaire is now standard over here, and not even considered a crass 'Americanism' by us haughty Brits [in the way that 'airplane' would be]. Given its use in finance, goegraphy, demographics, physics etc, the US/French definition of Billion is internationally preferable. 80.176.236.203 13:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

"Billionaire" is quite meaningless unless the currency considered is known to be one of or reasonably near that of USD or GBP, the two currencies that dictionary definitions mention. I linked in from the Moscow article, which mentions that the city has more billionaires than any other city. Checking the citation, this is measured in USD. Otherwise, who cares? I wonder how many billionaires there were in Harare in 2008, where you needed about Z$25 billion to buy an orange. — RVJ (talk) 03:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Copyighted materials
Materials were copied and pasted from http://www.forbes.com/lists/home.jhtml?passListId=10&passYear=2000&passListType=Person into the article by User:Hoof38. I have reverted prior to that version. --tomf688 (talk - email) 01:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but you also erased stuff that wasn't copyvio. I'm putting that back in. --Mr. Billion 17:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

First trillionaire?
Given that inflation and economic growth keep making the wealth of the richest human higher in nominal dollars over time, when can we expect to see the first trillionaire? This guy says in the year 2038. However, the party might end sometime after the onset of peak oil, unless the economy shifts largely to information rather than energy, and economic growth becomes tied to Moore's Law. --Teratornis 16:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pyat rublei 1997.jpg
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BetacommandBot 11:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

18th century billionaire?
The page on Heshen says that he was worth (in a contemporary estimate) 1.1 billion taels of silver at the time when he was killed. Would this make him the first known billionaire? Note that this is worth about $20 billion in today's currency. Qqwref (talk) 04:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Zimbabwe
According to the current article definition, almost everyone in Zimbabwe (population 13 million) is a billionaire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mamarazzi (talk • contribs) 22:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Article
This isn't much of an article. For more information, write about the process people take to become a billionaire, traits or activities of billionaires, and analysis of what it means to be a billionaire emotionally, economically, socially and psychologically, from reputable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.28.164.47 (talk) 22:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Why does trillionaire redirect here?
There is quite a big difference between being a billionaire and being a trillionaire.--CafeDelKevin (talk) 07:00, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 * In countries that use the long scale number naming system, what is someone who has at least a milliard (a thousand million) units of currency is called?Turm (talk) 13:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Weird Spanish words in opening paragraphs...
Umm... There's some random Spanish words in the third paragraph on the page, right at the end. "Caro es senda trolaza y le encanta el pedazo", to be exact. Normally, I'd just delete it, but I'm afraid that it might actually have some meaning in the article. Google Translate translates it as "trolaza is expensive path and loves the piece," which makes no sense, but maybe someone who actually speaks Spanish can translate it or condemn it as gibberish. Thanks! EDIT: This was deleted as I wrote this. Never mind.209.206.225.189 (talk) 01:51, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

it said a billion dollar was the gpd of mexico in 2010
the actual gdp for mexico in 2010 was a trillion US dollsrs so i think they were mistaken but could you guys please check — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guslb12 (talk • contribs) 06:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It meant a long-scale billion, which is equivalent to a trillion. Michaelmas1957 09:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Foundations
Are Foundations relevant for Billionaires? It depends on how much they remember their parents, grandparents, school and college, and how much tax they want to pay. AesopMuse (talk) 16:12, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

has been proposed to be renamed to, for the discussion, see talk:Black billionaires -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 06:13, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

2015: 2,473 ?
"Number of billionaires in 2015: 2,473" in: http://www.billionairecensus.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.247.242.39 (talk) 13:13, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Income inequality inappropriate for this article
It's not billionaires fault that most people are losers. This article should focus on the billionaire aspect of billionaires, not everyone else. If you are going to include that why not include that the US government is 18 trillion dollars in debt? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.76.99.2 (talk) 16:09, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

christian abillionaires
in a country which is 70% christian, how many billionaires are christian? there is a page for black billionairs, we need to link black and christian billionaires to this page also. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.234.105 (talk) 13:37, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Selection bias in Forbes list of Billionaires
An edit explaining (and documenting) selection bias in the Forbes list of billionaires was removed without explanation or discussion on the talk page. The edit also removed discussion of taxation and billionaires.

The sources are academic articles and publications in major newspapers.

Given the lack of explanation for the removal, I plan to revert the changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wt984688 (talk • contribs) 17:03, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Clarification requested. "This number" makes no sense as written.
The following paragraph needs clarification:
 * According to a 2016 Oxfam report, the wealth of the poorest 95% dropped by 38% between 2010 and 2015, thanks to an increase in the global population of 400 million.[1] In the same period, the wealth of the richest 62 people between the World's Billionaires increased by $500bn (£350bn) to $1.76tn. This number[clarification needed] has fallen dramatically from 388 as recently as 2010. More recently, in 2017 an Oxfam report noted that just eight billionaires have as much net worth as "half the human race".[2][3] But the Oxfam report has been criticized for considering debt as negative wealth, which leads to wealthy people with large amounts of debt to be considered poor or not wealthy.[4]

The problem here is that I am pretty sure that the number referred to is "62" but if so then the text reads/interprets something like the following: I also notice there is an infographic nearby that references both these numbers but it does not refer to these as "the richest NNN people" but rather as "The number of billionaires that, with assets combined, would own as much money as half the world population." 172.88.130.119 (talk) 05:04, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * ... the wealth of the richest 62 people ... increased by $500bn ... (2016)
 * ... the wealth of the richest 388 people ... increased by $500bn ... (2010)

Question
in the german language wikipedia, there is a rule that there should be only one link on the same term

in this article is under Statistics the link to Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates 3 times activated, to Carlos Slim only one time - why ?

--Über-Blick (talk) 23:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Centibillionaire
Centi- is used as a prefix for one hundred, as in cm - centimeter - and cl - centiliter. The correct term is hectobillionaire. Anchr (talk) 05:20, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree. I came to this talk page specifically to make this very point. Although this (mis)use, as well as the more common, but equally incorrect "centimillionaire" and "decimillionaire", are common, they are nevertheless incorrect.

Can I suggest that this be corrected to read "hectobillionaire", the common but incorrect use notwithstanding?

Unless there are any objections, I will make this edit.

Tarian.liber (talk) 14:50, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

As discussed, I made this edit, which was reverted on the grounds that the reference cited cointained a typo and that we should include the typo (not just the information being referenced). I would suggest that the reference is there to provide information, such as the number of hectobillionaires, but we should not also be reproducing typos and mis-spellings in the references, but use correct spelling and words instead. Tarian.liber (talk) 21:31, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

 * The reference does not contain a "typo", it contains the word centibillionaire as it is used by the vast majority of reliable sources. Sure, the centi- prefix usually means one hundredth, and hecto- ought to be correct in theory, but wikipedia usage should reflect real-world practice. Rosbif73 (talk) 22:13, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

 * "Centi-" is also used as 100x in "centimillennium" (100,000 years). A quick google of "Centibillionaire -hectobillionaire" (pages using "centibillionaire" but not "hectobillionaire") gives around 118,000 results including NPR, Forbes and two dictionaries, whereas the reverse, "hectobillionaire -centibillionaire", returns only 594 results... so even though it's technically wrong, it's clear that "centibillionaire" is the more common English term. Tobus (talk) 23:45, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

 * I have not come across "centimillenium" to mean 100,000 years. Where have you seen such usage? The link you supplied points to a non-existent web page, and when I search the 'net for that phrase, the only use of that word I find is "cMIL (centiMillenium) is a unit of Military-finance (MIL) crypto-currency. 1 MIL = 100 centiMillenium." which is a correct use of the SI prefix. I cannot find usage of that word to mean 100 millenia. I am more surprised to hear that "centimillenium" is in use than that "centibillionaire" is, since worrying about other people's wealth is more likely to be of interest to ignorant people than the keeping of time is, which is more likely to be of interest to scientists who are less likely to misuse SI prefixes.

 * Returning to "centibillionaire", it seems that the phrase originates in a mistake made in a Forbes article, then amplified by Wikipedia (according to this article I found: http://xona.com/2006/12/17.html). I believe we all agree on what the correct English usage of prefixes "centi-" and "hecto-" is, the disagreement seems to be - please correct me if I'm wrong - over whether we should replicate and amplify (what at least when it was first used was) an erroneous usage which has become common, or use a word which is indisputably (also) correct, but (it is at least argued) is used less often. "Hectobillionaire" and "hectomillionaire" are nevertheless in use - I get plenty of hits when I search for them. Does anyone not agree that "decabillionaire", "hectobillionaire" etc. are correct terms, irrespective of whether "centibillionaire" is?

 * It is not uncommon for many people to use language incorrectly, or believe in myths and demonstrable falsehoods. But I would have thought that a work of reference should aspire to promulgate correct usage?

 * How about some compromise, like "hectobillionaire (also commonly referred to as 'centibillionaire' although strictly speaking this is not a correct usage of SI prefixes)."?

 * Tarian.liber (talk) 19:35, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
 * My bad, there was a typo in the link, fixed now.
 * There's no requirement for common English to be consistent with, nor only use, SI units. "Centi-", as well as being an SI prefix, is also a Latin prefix meaning "a hundred" - as in "centipede" (a hundred legs, not 1/100th of a leg!), so if you consider "centibillionaire" to be of Latin derivation instead of an SI unit then it's just as technically correct to use "centi-" as "hecto-" - perhaps even more so becasue "billion" isn't an SI unit in the first place! (Using SI nomenclature this page should technically be called something like "Gigannaire"!)
 * The link you gave only *CLAIMS* it was a mistake: "I assumed it was a mistake", but Forbes obviously didn't think so as it continues: "The article was not changed, and the author did not write me back.", and a Forbes search today still brings up multiple hits for "centibillionaire" and zero for "hectobillionaire".... I'm not sure that an single opinion piece from an employee of Xona Games would be a more reliable source on this issue than Forbes in the first place. A great source would be a dictionary: Merriam Webster has an entry for "centibllionaire", but not "hectobillionaire" - same with Collins, I didn't check any others.
 * How about a compromise that reflects common usage: "centibillionaire (also rarely 'hectobillionaire')..."?
 * Tobus (talk) 00:52, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

 * "centibillionaire (also rarely 'hectobillionaire')...") sounds like a good way to phrase it to me.

 * Tarian.liber (talk) 14:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

 * It seems to me that the "centi-" usage is so dominant in reliable sources that even mentioning "hectobillionaire" would be giving it undue weight. Rosbif73 (talk) 16:20, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

 * In your original comment when you reverted my edit, you said "Agreed that the prefix ought to be hecto, but unfortunately that's not what the cited reference uses". You seem to have gone from this to "hectobillionaire must not even be mentioned." I don't read the WP:DUE article in a way that implies that "hectobillionaire" should not be mentioned at all. To quote your own comment, "hecto" is what "ought to be" used. I've conceded others' contention that "centi" is de facto presently in more common use. But I don't think anyone is saying "hecto" is not used at all (including in sources which qualify as "reliable" by Wikipedia standards). WP:DUE says that "mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion". "Hecto" is used, therefore, I would say, it not being mentioned at all (i.e. its proportion being zero) would not be in proportion. WP:DUE goes on to say that "the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views". Therefore, even views of tiny minorities can be included - including the example given, that of the flat Earth theory. "Hectobillionaire" is certainly used by more than a tiny minority, nor is that term fringe in the way that the flat Earth theory is. On the contrary, there are good arguments that it is the linguistically most correct usage, and on balance, I still view those arguments as the most persuasive, although very good and interesting and persuasive linguistic arguments to the contrary have been presented by others. WP:DUE further says that "it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view", which I believe is precisely what Tobus' formulation does very well.
 * Tarian.liber (talk) 21:11, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Mansa Musa
First billionaire 2601:41:C07F:16A0:554F:7965:42B3:6E38 (talk) 13:52, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Titanic
A few days ago a submarine went down to the Titanic. It was destroyed. On board the submarine was a British billionaire ( and other rich people ).

Should the article be changed? The number of billionaires should be lowered now. 49.178.158.133 (talk) 04:28, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

 * No. NOTNEWS Tobus (talk) 04:37, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Undue Weight on Wealth Inequality
Two of the graphics currently in this article don't even mention billionaires, but rather point out income inequality. They do not contain a separate category for billionaires, instead grouping them together with millionaires. Millionaires are a separate article, so these graphics are not relevant to this article. Additionally, the existing income inequality section is not necessary, as the Distribution of wealth and Economic inequality articles already exist. The amount of wealth controlled by the richest 10 billionaires doesn't directly relate to the concept of billionaires and would be more relevant for other articles. Cyifmae (talk) 18:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Billionaire


text:
Jim Braxton

James "Bubby" Robert Braxton (May 23, 1949 – July 28, 1986) was a professional American football fullback in the National Football League (NFL) for the Buffalo Bills and Miami Dolphins.

College career
Jim Braxton started playing college football at West Virginia University in 1967 and was the team's second leading rusher (272 yards) in his sophomore season in 1968. In his junior season, he rushed for a team best 843 yards and helped the team become Peach Bowl champions. He also was talented as a kicker. As a senior, he converted to tight end, catching 27 passes for 565 yards and eight touchdowns and that was good enough for first-team All-American honors.

Professional career
Drafted in the third round by the Buffalo Bills in the 1971 NFL Draft, he was needed not as the leading rusher, but the blocking weapon for star running back O. J. Simpson. As Simpson remarks, most of his 11,236 career rushing yards were due to Braxton.

Braxton's career took off in 1972, his sophomore season in the league, when he rushed for 453 yards on 116 attempts with five touchdowns and caught 24 receptions for 232 yards and a score. In 1973, Braxton rushed for 494 yards on 108 attempts with four touchdowns despite only playing in six games (starting four) due to being deactivated for the first eight games with a back injury. In 1974, Braxton became a premier runner alongside Simpson, rushing for 543 yards on 146 carries with four touchdowns.

During the 1975 season, Braxton rushed for 823 yards and nine touchdowns, which he considered his best season. He also caught 26 passes for 282 yards and 4 touchdowns. His nine rushing touchdowns ranked eighth in the league, and his 13 all-purpose scores finished fifth.

Braxton's 1976 season ended with a knee injury, and he rushed for 372 yards and a touchdown during the 1977 season. He played half of the 1978 season with the Bills, rushing for 73 yards, and then finished out his NFL career in the second half of the 1978 season with the Miami Dolphins, rushing for 48 yards and two touchdowns.

For his career, Braxton rushed for 2,890 yards on 741 attempts with 25 touchdowns. His receiving totals were 1,473 yards on 144 receptions with 6 touchdowns, for 31 career all-purpose touchdowns.

Upon Braxton's death, Ed Abramoski, Buffalo's lead athletic trainer during the entirety of Braxton's tenure, said "Jimmy Braxton was one of the smartest players I've ever seen. He really knew how the game worked."

Personal
While Braxton and his eventual wife, Pam, were dating in college, she became pregnant, and the couple decided it was best they gave their child up for adoption. In 1997, Pam met their biological daughter, who was then a professor at Southern Illinois University.

Jim Braxton died on July 28, 1986, due to lung cancer, at the age of 37. He died at Roswell Park Comprehensive Cancer Center in Buffalo, New York where he was undergoing treatment. He is survived by his wife, Pam, and two sons. His nephew, Landon Turner, played offensive lineman for the North Carolina Tar Heels.

O. J. Simpson offered these goodbye words to Braxton: "I've lost a teammate; I've lost a dear friend. Bubby was my protector on the field, my companion off it. What he meant to my career is impossible to calculate, but I know many of the things I achieved wouldn't have been possible without him."

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Jim Braxton


text:
Poplar Street Bridge

The Congressman William L. Clay Sr. Bridge, formerly known as the Bernard F. Dickmann Bridge and popularly as the Poplar Street Bridge or PSB, completed in 1967, is a 647 ft deck girder bridge across the Mississippi River between St. Louis, Missouri, and East St. Louis, Illinois. The bridge arrives on the Missouri shore line just south of the Gateway Arch.

Background
Planned just before construction of the Arch, the builders in 1959 were to request that 25 acre of the Gateway Arch property be turned over from the National Park Service for the bridge. The request generated enormous controversy and ultimately 2.5 acre of the Jefferson Expansion National Memorial (which included all of the original platted area of St. Louis when it was acquired in the 1930s and 1940s) was given to the bridge.

Usage
Two Interstates and a U.S. Highway cross the entire bridge. Approximately 100,000 vehicles cross the bridge daily, making it the second most heavily used bridge on the river, after the I-94 Dartmouth Bridge in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Some of that load has been diverted to the Stan Musial Veterans Memorial Bridge since its opening in 2014.

Routes and highways
I-55, I-64 and U.S. Route 40 (US 40) cross the Mississippi on the Poplar Street Bridge. US 66 also ran concurrently over this bridge until 1979, and US 50 was routed over it before the Interstates were constructed. In addition, I-70 crossed the river here until 2014, when it was realigned to cross the river on the Stan Musial Veterans Memorial Bridge when it was completed. The old alignment of I-70 through downtown to the west approach for the Stan Musial Veterans Memorial Bridge became an extension of I-44. However, motorists traveling eastbound on I-44 must continue westbound on I-70 and do not have a direct connection to the Stan Musial Veterans Memorial Bridge, while motorists traveling westbound on I-70 do not have a direct connection to I-44 westbound. Any access from eastbound I-44 to eastbound I-70, and from westbound I-70 to westbound I-44, requires using the Poplar Street Bridge.

The traffic was heavily congested until the opening of the new bridge in early February 2014. In 2012, 123,564 vehicles used it every day, but after the new bridge opened, congestion alleviated by almost 14%, less than the predicted 20% decline with 106,500 vehicles using it every day because total traffic across the river from all bridges increased by 7.4% over 2013 levels.

Historical areas
The east end of the bridge crosses the south end of what was Bloody Island which Robert E. Lee connected to the mainland of Illinois with landfill in the 1850s. During its island days several Missouri politicians fought duels there. What was Bloody Island is now a train yard.

Name
Although the bridge's former name honors former St. Louis mayor Bernard F. Dickmann, it is most commonly referred to as the Poplar Street Bridge, with many locals unaware of its official name. The Missouri end of the bridge sits over Poplar Street, and the media started referring to it by that name long before the bridge opened due to the fact that the bridge was built over Poplar Street.

It was officially renamed as the Congressman William L. Clay Sr. Bridge in October 2013 in honor of Bill Clay.

title: Poplar Street Bridge


text:
Claire Shulman

Claire Shulman (née Kantoff; February 23, 1926 –August 16, 2020) was an American politician and registered nurse from New York City. She served as director of community boards and deputy president of Queens Borough, before becoming interim borough president in 1986 when her predecessor resigned due to scandal. Shulman proceeded to serve in the role full-time and won four elections between 1986 and 2002. She was the first woman to hold the position.

Early life
Shulman was born in Brooklyn on February 23, 1926. She graduated from Adelphi University and was a registered nurse before getting into politics. She met her future husband, Mel Shulman, a doctor, while both were working at Queens Hospital Center.

Career
Shulman first became involved in community life when she joined the Bayside Mother's Club in 1955. She was active in Queens community affairs and was appointed to a community board in 1966, eventually going on to become its chairwomen. She subsequently became Queens borough president Donald Manes' director of community boards in 1972 and his deputy in 1980. She took office initially as acting Borough President on February 11, 1986, after the scandal-tarred Manes, who later committed suicide, resigned. She was elected Borough President by a unanimous vote of the nine New York City Council members from Queens on March 12. She was then elected by popular vote to the remaining three years of Manes' term later that year and to four-year terms again in 1989, 1993, and 1997. She was unable to run for re-election in 2001 because of term limits, and was succeeded by Helen Marshall on January 3, 2002.

Shulman was noted for her passionate advocacy on issues including economic development, airport disputes, and the environment. For instance, she secured funding for the construction of Queens Hospital Center, as well as for 30,000 more school places for students. She also mediated a compromise with the board in 1987, when it voted in favor of a key city rezoning proposal that would spur the construction of middle-income apartment blocks. Neighborhoods made up of mostly single-family detached homes were against the proposal, and Shulman obtained an exemption for twelve such areas in Queens.

Affiliations
Shulman served as a member of the boards of directors of New York Hospital Queens and St. Mary's Healthcare System for Children. She also assisted the Queens Zoo in obtaining its first bald eagle. The zoo's current bald eagles, Mel and Claire II, are named after Shulman and her husband.

Later life
Shulman established Flushing Willets Point Corona Local Development Corporation, and served as its president and CEO when it aggressively lobbied the New York City Council in 2007 and 2008 to approve controversial legislation that would remove all of the existing private property owners and 250 industrial businesses from the neighborhood of Willets Point, Queens, for redevelopment. She was found to have conducted the lobbying for more than one year without filing any of the required public disclosures. An investigation by the City Clerk's Lobbying Bureau led to it imposing a fine of $59,090 against Shulman's LDC, which was a then-record penalty on a New York City lobbyist. However, Mayor Michael Bloomberg came to her defense, characterizing this as a "cheap shot" against her and adding that "these groups are designed to lobby. I don’t know if they technically broke the law". On a state level, then-Attorney General Andrew Cuomo and his successor, Eric Schneiderman investigated Shulman's lobbying campaign over a three-year period. Schneiderman eventually found that Shulman's LDC indeed “flouted the law by lobbying elected officials, both directly and through third parties, to win approval of … favored projects”.

Personal life
During the last years of her life, she and her husband, Melvin Shulman, lived in Beechhurst, Queens, New York. They had one daughter, Ellen S. Baker, an astronaut and a veteran of three Space Shuttle voyages, including one that docked with the Russian space station Mir. Their son, Lawrence Shulman, a medical oncologist, is chief medical officer at the Dana–Farber Cancer Institute in Boston, Massachusetts. Their adopted son, Kim Shulman, who worked as an assistant director on television series including Party of Five and films including Honey, We Shrunk Ourselves, died from a cerebral hemorrhage on June 2, 2001.

Health and death
Shulman survived breast cancer and lost both her breasts in separate mastectomies. She died on August 16, 2020, at her home in Beechhurst, Queens. She was 94 and suffered from lung cancer and pancreatic cancer in the time leading up to her death. Before her death, she endorsed Donovan Richards for the 2020 Queens Borough presidency.

title: Claire Shulman


text:
Julia Brace

Julia Brace (June 13, 1807 – August 12, 1884) was a deafblind woman who enrolled at the American School for the Deaf, in Hartford, Connecticut, in 1825 and remained there as an employee after her graduation.

Biography
Julia Brace was born to a poor family in Hartford County, Connecticut, on June 13, 1807, and became deafblind at age five from typhus fever. She gradually stopped speaking and developed a system of home sign that she used with her parents. She was sent to a boarding school with hearing and sighted children before being offered a place at the Hartford Asylum for the Deaf and Dumb (now called the American School for the Deaf), where she enrolled on June 11, 1825, two days before her 18th birthday.

During her childhood, she was described as independent, inquisitive and feisty. Although she was not given much formal instruction, she did acquire tactile signing from the resident deaf students and staff at the Hartford school. Despite being the only blind person there, she became a part of the school community, forming friendships (and enemies), fulfilling communal duties, and developing skills in sewing and knitting. She began to be seen as something of a celebrity and received many curious visitors — although these regular interruptions to her daily activities apparently annoyed her and she was not afraid, on occasion, to make her displeasure known.

She was protective of her own rights, and never intentionally invaded those of others, and she was never known to deceive. She was kind and gentle enough to be entrusted with the care of the sick, and made an excellent nurse.

Samuel Gridley Howe, educator from the Perkins School for the Blind, began instructing the seven-year-old deafblind Laura Bridgman after meeting Brace during a visit to the Hartford school around 1837. After four years and much success with his young pupil, Howe returned to Hartford in 1841, bringing Bridgman with him. Although Brace was 34 years old, Howe thought he would also like to attempt to instruct her in the English language as he had Bridgman. On April 6, 1842, Brace enrolled as a student of the Perkins School.

Martha Johonnet left Brace $200 annually in her will.

Howe's "experiment", however, proved less successful than he had hoped, as Brace clearly preferred to communicate in sign language, and she returned to the Hartford school after a year, where she continued to board until 1860.

She left the school to take up residence with her sister in Bloomfield, Connecticut, where she died on August 12, 1884, aged 77. She was buried in an unmarked grave in the West Hill Cemetery.

title: Julia Brace


text:
User talk:Frederico Penteado

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User talk:Thommac

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title: User talk:Thommac


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Malden High School

Malden High School is a public high school in Malden, Massachusetts. Established in 1857, the school is part of the Malden Public Schools and is accredited by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges (NEASC).

A 2013 study conducted by the National Center for Education Statistics found that Malden High was the most diverse public high school in Massachusetts.

Early years
Malden High School was established in 1857 by the school committee after a vote in favor for the establishment. The school first started in the Centre Grammar School Building of Pleasant Street with Joseph H. Noyes as Principal, Annie L. Woodford as his assistant and 38 students, which would later grow to 57 over the year. The school grew quickly taking the lower story of the townhouse two years later, started library on 1863, and faced increasing overcrowding until 1872, when Edward Hyde Rice was principal, and where a new building was erected on Salem Street at the cost of $100,000.

However, the first Salem Street building, after only a few years already became as overcrowded as the old school. The school was not designed for the future rapid enrollment as the school grew well into the hundreds. By 1892, three rooms of the Centre School Building were reopened to help serve the students as the Salem building became too overcrowded. After some debate, to accommodate the school's growing size, another new building was built and opened on 1896. The 1872 building continued as a manual training school until 1937 where the land was used for an addition to the high school that opened in 1940. In the following years of the 1950s and 1960s, the Malden High School reached its zenith as the school grew to become one of the preeminent schools in the state with wide praise and strong reputation sending many to the Ivy league. In 1958, the school saw 54% (13% higher than the state average) of its graduating class to continue on to college to 45 schools. This was especially impressive for a working class town in the late fifties. By 1968 the percentage of students accepted at colleges declined to 33% with only one Ivy League student.

Decline

Malden High School entered into a slow decline in the subsequent years during the mid 1960s and through the 1970s. The school's College Board scores declined steadily over the decade, becoming well-below the national average in 1979. With the declining scores, the percentage of college-bound graduates dropped to 42% for the class of 1975 (while college-bound graduates rose nationally). Some students recognized the problem and asked the school committee to be allowed to take a heavier workload by taking more than five courses to be able to compete for college admission better. In addition, the school building began to show its age and marred the school with disruptive and behind-schedule repairs that even forced an early dismissal for a day. Construction for a new addition in the mid-to-late 1970s was riffled with delays and cost overruns from unexpected problems including discovering undetected peat and mysterious tunnels that needed to be excavated and filled with gravel. One of the new addition buildings was nearly torn down to start after the contractor ignored an error that one of the foundation footings were misaligned nine inches the correct line. After it reached completion in 1980, problems continued to persist well after construction including leaking roofs and even falling concrete. Adding to the decline, school vandalism reached extreme levels in the late 1970s with trashed bathrooms, ransacked classrooms, damage to the new school pool, and fires during the early 1980s. Teachers and the city began openly talking about the decline of the student body and disciple with rampant truancy, drugs, and alcohol with intimidation to more studious students. Finally cutbacks from funding (many blamed on the controversial proposition 2½) forced layoffs and cutbacks to many of the school offerings.

Recent years
Since the mid-1980s, Malden High School has become highly diverse with the minority now the majority. Its large diversity has grown to become a prominent feature of the school and was recognized during a speech in the 2007 graduation ceremony. The school since then has begun to recover and now beginning to receive new lockers, desks, computers, and other new equipment. The courses continue to expand breadth of its offerings with new courses including Mandarin Chinese and new AP courses. A comprehensive $77 million renovation to school buildings was completed in 2012. On April 7, 2022, a student was taken to a medical facility following an “altercation” with another student.

Academics
Students have a choice of 15 advanced placement courses, provided they meet the necessary academic requirements. In addition, Malden High School students also have the option to participate in a Virtual High School program.

Sports
The school is a member of Massachusetts Interscholastic Athletic Association (MIAA). The school maintains a number of varsity teams including a swimming team, as well as baseball, golf, volleyball, soccer, basketball, gymnastics, lacrosse, softball, wrestling, tennis, track/cross country, and football teams. In addition, the school have a few upstart club sports teams looking to gain official recognition, the most recent sport to gain this was the girls' volleyball team. The Malden High School once featured a rifle team who competed against college teams and enjoyed several long running championship dynasties until it was shut down. The school's team name is the Golden Tornadoes with its mascot a lion named Nedlam. Malden High School, in conjunction with Medford High School, has the 2nd oldest continuous high school football rivalry in the United States, with the first Thanksgiving Day Game dating back to 1889. The crew team utilizes the nearby Malden River.

Notable coaches of the Malden High School football team include: Matthew W. Bullock (1905), Charles McGeoch (1931), and Warren McGuirk (1931–1941). Dave Morey, an alum of the school, coached the baseball team in 1919.

Clubs and activities
Outside of sports, Malden High School offers a wide variety of extracurricular activities. These include service clubs (including Key Club and Interact Club), ethnic cultural clubs( Haitian Club), activism clubs, interests clubs, and a number of others both fully recognized by the school and unofficial (clubs have to reach some notability and apply before full recognition and have to wait until contract negotiations before stipends are added).

The school's official newspaper, The Blue and Gold, had followed a long and proud tradition publishing for over 90 years making it the second-oldest running public high school newspaper. Over the years, it had won over many awards including 40 Columbia Scholastic Press Association awards, New England Scholastic Press Association (NESPA), and Suffolk University. The most recent award was received in 2010 for Best in News Writing from Suffolk University.

The Oracle is the second-oldest literary society in the country. In 2006 the society was given the ranking of "Superior," the highest possible rating, with only one other school literary society in the state.

Junior Varieties is the oldest high school variety show in the country. The variety feature yearly themes with a mix of comedy, vocal talent, instrumental performances, dance performances, and other skits. The show is largely led by the year's junior classmen, but students of all grade levels participate including their own part in the show.

Notable alumni

 * Wally Brown, actor
 * John J. Buckley, politician
 * Gary Cherone, former singer for Van Halen
 * Kevin Cullen, journalist
 * James DiPaola, politician
 * Stephen J. Galli, pathologist
 * Breno Giacomini, professional football player
 * Norman Greenbaum, American singer-songwriter
 * Olive Hazlett, mathematician
 * Leo Kahn, co-founder of Staples
 * Kevin McGlinchy, professional baseball player
 * Dave Morey, college football player and coach
 * Sam Nichols, politician
 * Elliot Paul, journalist
 * Mike Road, voice actor
 * Jason Rumble, professional wrestler
 * Emma Fall Schofield, judge
 * Louise Stokes, athlete
 * Arthur Luther Whitaker, sociologist

title: Malden High School


text:
User talk:Warreed

Benevenidos
Welcome!

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Silent Running
Keep up the good work on Silent Running. The page needs expansion. —Viriditas | Talk 04:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Thriller (song)
I screwed up the undo of vandalism. Shame all your editing to the dance section will be lost. < Karlww ( contribs 09:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

double quotes vs. italics
I've undone the portion of your edit to Leverage (TV series) which replaced Manual of Style italics with double quotes for episode names. We don't use double quotes in such cases. The disambiguation fixes are good edits and I've retained those. Keep up the good work! —EncMstr (talk) 14:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

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title: User talk:Warreed


text:
Ring Ring

Ring Ring may refer to:

 * Ring Ring (album), a 1973 album by Björn & Benny, Agnetha & Anni-Frid, who would later become ABBA
 * "Ring Ring" (ABBA song), the title song
 * "Ring Ring" (Jax Jones song), 2018
 * "Ring Ring", a song by Juice Wrld from Death Race for Love, 2019
 * "Ring Ring", a song by Mika from Life in Cartoon Motion, 2007
 * "Ring Ring", a song by Rick Ross from Rich Forever, 2012
 * Ring Ring, a fictional character in the TV series Pucca
 * Ring Ring (film), a 2019 action thriller film starring Lou Ferrigno

title: Ring Ring


text:
John of Jerusalem

John of Jerusalem may refer to:

Monarchs

 * John of Brienne (c. 1170–1237), King of Jerusalem (as John I)
 * John I of Cyprus (1259 or c. 1267–1285), King of Cyprus and Jerusalem (as John II)
 * John II of Cyprus (1432–1458), King of Cyprus and Jerusalem (as John III)

Religious leaders

 * John the Baptist (died ca. 28 AD), Patron saint of Jerusalem
 * John II of Jerusalem (c. 387–417), Bishop of Jerusalem
 * John III of Jerusalem (516-524), Patriarch of Jerusalem
 * John IV of Jerusalem (575-594), Patriarch of Jerusalem
 * John V of Jerusalem (706-735), Patriarch of Jerusalem
 * John VI of Jerusalem (838-842), Patriarch of Jerusalem
 * John VII of Jerusalem (964-966), Patriarch of Jerusalem
 * John VIII of Jerusalem (1106–1156), Patriarch of Jerusalem in exile
 * John IX of Jerusalem (1156–1166), Patriarch of Jerusalem in exile

title: John of Jerusalem


text:
New England Association of Schools and Colleges

The New England Association of Schools and Colleges, Inc. (NEASC ) is an American educational organization that accredits private and public secondary schools (high schools and technical/career institutions), primarily in New England. It also accredits international secondary schools (primarily in the Middle East and Europe) and, less frequently, high schools in other U.S. states.

Until 2018, NEASC was the primary accrediting organization for universities in New England. Since 2018, the former NEASC university accreditation body is now an independent organization, the New England Commission of Higher Education (NECHE). NEASC retained its old name after the split, although the word "colleges" is now an anachronism.

History
The New England Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools was founded in 1885 by a group of university administrators led by Harvard president Charles W. Eliot and Wellesley president Alice Freeman. The current name was adopted in 1971. NEASC is headquartered in Lowell, Massachusetts.

College accreditation
The original impetus for educational accreditation was American universities' desire for recognition by the international academic community. Starting in 1912, several European universities, led by the University of Berlin, announced that they would only recognize American university degrees awarded by a member of the Association of American Universities (AAU), an industry group of leading research universities. The AAU recognized that European universities wanted some kind of formal credential, but left the issue to other organizations. The American Council of Education briefly accredited universities starting in 1921, but abandoned those efforts in 1935.

Over time, responsibility for university accreditation fell to a set of regional self-regulators. NEASC and its successor officially trace back their accreditation efforts to 1929. However, in the early days, accreditation merely meant membership in NEASC; although NEASC approved a set of standards for member institutions, it treated those standards as advisory.

When government regulators began basing eligibility for federal and state-provided financial aid on university accreditation (a practice that continues today ), Congress and the Department of Education (DOE) began scrutinizing the accreditation agencies more closely. In the late 2010s, DOE began planning to strengthen existing rules protecting the independence of accreditation agencies (34 CFR § 602.14). In 2018, anticipating the regulatory change, NEASC spun off its university accreditation arm into an independent body, which is now known as the New England Commission of Higher Education.

Secondary school accreditation
When NEASC recognized universities in 1929, it also recognized several public and private secondary schools (mostly college-preparatory schools). As with the colleges, NEASC's original standards for prep schools were advisory, and accreditation was synonymous with NEASC membership. Although not every major New England prep school was a NEASC member in 1929, several joined shortly after NEASC membership became linked with accreditation (e.g., Exeter in 1932 and Hotchkiss in 1933 ). Today, a private school must be accredited in order to join the National Association of Independent Schools.

Formalized secondary school accreditation reviews were not popularized until the 1950s. According to one school's historian, the increasing popularity of college led to the foundation of many new prep schools, some of which were fraudulent. As a result, some reformers began pushing for closer government regulation of private schools. "To forestall governmental intervention, [NEASC] (and similar groups elsewhere) decided that it would hold periodic strict evaluations of its member institutions, and accredit them if they seemed to merit it."

Accredited institutions
As of June 14, 2024, NEASC accredited 659 United States public schools, 532 United States private schools (including religious schools), and 339 international schools (including several international schools in the United States). The 659 public schools represent a decrease from the roughly 725 schools accredited by NEASC in October 2022.

Of the 659 U.S. public schools, all but one were located in the New England states (272 in Massachusetts, 169 in Connecticut, 80 in New Hampshire, 72 in Maine, 41 in Rhode Island, and 24 in Vermont). Of the 532 U.S. private schools, 521 were located in New England (206 in Massachusetts, 143 in Connecticut, 47 in Rhode Island, 44 in Maine, 43 in New Hampshire, and 38 in Vermont).

Internationally, NEASC's biggest markets are the United Arab Emirates (46 schools), Spain (43 schools), Germany (18 schools), Qatar (16 schools), and Switzerland (15 schools).

Organization
NEASC is made up of three commissions: the Commission on Independent Schools, the Commission on International Education, and the Commission on Public Schools. The commissions decide matters of accreditation in the context of research-driven standards reviewed by their membership.

Cost
Schools must pay a reviewer's fee to be accredited by NEASC, which may cost tens of thousands of dollars, in addition to yearly NEASC membership dues in the thousands of dollars. NEASC's website does not disclose its fees for domestic institutions, but it estimates that for international schools, as of 2023, "a hypothetical school of 500 students with no delays in the process" would be charged approximately $18,980 over the course of a five-year accreditation cycle.

When South Hadley High School resigned from NEASC in 2024, its principal stated that its yearly membership dues were approximately $4,000 and that in 2014, its decennial accreditation review cost $26,000. In addition, in February 2023, a representative of the Vermont Principals' Association said that two school principals had told him that their annual dues were $3,600 and $4,340, respectively.

Stakeholder pressure
School stakeholders who disagree with the leadership or direction of a particular school sometimes use NEASC accreditation as a pressure point to demand policy changes.

In 2023, NEASC cancelled the Interdistrict School for Arts and Communication's (New London, Connecticut) application for accreditation after a teacher sued the school for creating a toxic work environment and the school declined to cooperate with an investigation. In 2024, a group of concerned individuals requested a meeting with NEASC's reviewers during an accreditation visit to Maloney High School (Meriden, Connecticut), claiming that the school made changes during the NEASC visit in order to give the reviewers an artificially impressive view of the school, and that they wanted an opportunity to tell NEASC about the school as they saw it. NEASC declined to meet with the group, explaining that the group needed to express its concerns through existing channels.

Criticism
In 2015, the Lowell Sun published an article in which several school districts questioned the value of NEASC accreditation after NEASC formally warned Billerica Memorial High School that it was in danger of losing its accreditation. The article noted that Burlington High School had suspended its NEASC membership, claiming that the universities its students attended did not take NEASC accreditation into account when evaluating college applications. However, the Sun also explained that at least one public university system (the University of California) requires applicants to graduate from an accredited secondary institution. In a letter to the editor, NEASC added that following a parent outcry, Burlington High School had already applied for re-accreditation, which was granted following a formal review in 2017.

In February 2023, Vermont Principals' Association executive director Jay Nichols submitted a two-page statement to the Vermont legislature, which argued that the legislature should not require public schools to seek NEASC accreditation. He opined that most Vermont public schools do not seek accreditation because of the high cost and large amount of paperwork. He suggested that the situation may be different for private schools, as those schools do not have "traditional local and state oversight" and are exempted from certain federal disclosure requirements.


text: Category:Bostonians

title: Category:Bostonians


text:
Pigpile

Pigpile is a live album by the American musical group Big Black. It is a recording from July 24, 1987 during the post-hardcore band's final European tour, released in 1992 originally as a VHS tape (it was their second video release, following the 'Live' tape on Atavistic Records). It was later issued as an audio-only LP/cassette/CD. The recordings were made at the Hammersmith Clarendon ballroom, London. A 5" transparent heavy-duty vinyl record was included away free with all copies of the VHS tape and some copies of the soundtrack album, featuring a cover version of the Mary Jane Girls song "In My House". Lower-quality recordings from the Hammersmith concert had previously appeared in a different configuration on the bootleg LP Tonight We Walked With Giants.

Pigpile coincided with the re-release of Big Black's entire catalog on Touch and Go Records. A limited edition of Pigpile was issued as a box set that included the LP and its insert, a VHS tape of the Hammersmith concert, the "In My House" one-sided 5" single, a poster and a Big Black T-shirt.

Reception
Released five years after Big Black chose to disband at the peak of their artistic and commercial success, Pigpile received concurrent and retrospective reviews ranging from lukewarm to gushing. Writing shortly after the album's release, Spin magazine remarked that Pigpile was "a live album with sound quality unworthy of an audio nut like Albini." Looking back at Albini's career through Big Black and his subsequent band, Rapeman a decade on, Rolling Stone called Pigpile a "fun-but-not-revelatory live album," ranking it a notch below any of the group's studio albums.

Track listing

 * 1) "Fists of Love"  – 4:14
 * 2) "L Dopa"  – 1:49
 * 3) "Passing Complexion"  – 3:06
 * 4) "Dead Billy"  – 5:12
 * 5) "Cables"  – 3:18
 * 6) "Bad Penny"  – 3:03
 * 7) "Pavement Saw"  – 2:56
 * 8) "Kerosene"  – 6:38
 * 9) "Steelworker"  – 4:52
 * 10) "Pigeon Kill"  – 2:24
 * 11) "Fish Fry"  – 1:55
 * 12) "Jordan, Minnesota"  – 7:05

Album credits

 * Big Black - Performance
 * Steve Albini - Inlay Notes
 * Cheryl Graham - Album Artwork

title: Pigpile


text:
Talk:Limbo

Minor Edit
Changed: in other words, their fate cannot be determined

Added: by any but God.

Completed: in other words, their fate cannot be determined by any but God.

Origins of Limbo
The article needs info on the origins of the term limbo. Alan Liefting 04:32, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Limbo today
"Limbo has now officially been denounced by the Catholic church." Is there a source for this? 172.215.141.223 10:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The 'Limbo: Also a dance' section should be removed. Limbo dancing is listed in the Limbo disambiguation page.

Limbo is no longer part of Church 'doctrine'. Would someone please care to incorporate this into the article using this source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc? Thanks. Knight45 02:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Limbo was never really part of Church doctrine. It was a theory, widely accepted at times not accepted at others, that is now in a period of non-acceptance. It is criticized, but not condemned per se.--T. Anthony 13:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Unbaptized babies?
Is it still the churches posistion that unbaptized babies go to limbo? I'm not sure it is and there is no source. More importantly, as a Roman Catholic I was taught about purgutory, not limbo, and there is a seperate article for purgutory-prehaps this one should be deleted as it doesn't add anything new.

 * It never was the church's position that unbaptized babies go to Limbo. It was theological speculation by Catholics on a matter that had not been doctrinally defined.  Even if it were definitively defined that there is no such place, the article on Limbo would be valid because it describes something that would then be noteworthy historically.  Goldfritha 23:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

 * http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5412166.stm - Vatican to review "Limbo". From an atheist point of view this whole thing is crazy! Richard W.M. Jones 10:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually, Limbo was a part of Church doctrine. The old Catechism describes Christ's descent into hell from the creed as his "soul descending into Limbo" which is defined as "the place where the souls of the just who died before Christ were detained, and were waiting for the time of their redemption. The Vatican's revision of this doctrine is a serious issue that needs to be introduced in the article as "...in the Roman Catholic Church, Limbo was..." (not is) if Catholic, especially Roman Catholic doctrine is to be seen as an introducing issue. 74.61.16.143 (talk) 07:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Christopher Fossedal
 * That's the limbo of the Fathers. --217.189.246.166 (talk) 21:51, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Ditto on the identification of "Christ's descent into limbo" with the Limbo of the Patriarch's (Fathers) also: "Limbo was a part of Church doctrine. The old Catechism describes ..." is predicated on the common but false notion the everything stated in the current or any other catechism is "church doctrine". No catechism has that much authority, though I often see them quoted as though they do. To find evidence that Limbo was Church doctrine you need a specific dogmatic definition from a Church Council or Pope. While you're looking, bare in mind that in their entirety the Documents issued by Vatican II contain not a one such definition on any subject. They are rare. The current Catechism of the Universal Church is nigh three inches thick, I imagine a statement of all the official doctrines of the church would be closer to pamphlet size. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.16.146.33 (talk) 15:55, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * A catechism is Church doctrine, though in general not with the degree of article of faith. A consistent teaching at only catechism level can even without any further magisterial action reach the degree of article of faith, if it's consistently enough taught by virtually the whole episcopal collegium including its head. That does of course not apply to the Limbo of the Infants, which originated in speculation, but apparently did enter ordinary teaching, however with no intention of the publishing authorities of dogmatising it. However, I think even with the new decision of the Theological Commission, the theory of the Limbo of the Infants still is the unchallenged hypothesis concerning the situation of those who, after death, remain in original sin but no other - that is, unbaptized infants if the Lord, blessed be His holy Name, doesn't take their sin away by some other way. So, the question is properly speaking not whether there is a Limbo of the Infants (at least as a theoretical situation, there is), but whether there is someone in it. --77.4.52.38 (talk) 18:39, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Scope of the article
Catholicism is not the only religion that believes in limbo. The Unification Church also has a concept of limbo. And while I'm not a theology expert, I daresay other faiths have an identical or similar concept.

 * the idea that a person's status in the afterlife can change based on what earthly people do (or other factors or events).
 * the idea of "returning to life" to conduct unfinished business, popularized in movies and TV
 * reports of people having a near-death experience and encountering a loving being (or white light) and
 * giving a review of your life
 * telling you that you've been given a second chance

It should go without saying that I'm not saying Wikipedia should endorse any of these beliefs. All I'm asking is that we study what published sources have said about these beliefs; and then report in our articles what various people believe. Starting of course with the most prominent or popular beliefs.

(By the way, one of the fears that some people have about religion or God or death is the prospect of eternal damnation. It may come as a surprise to some readers that not all religions teach a permanent, irredeemable damnation. Even Christianity as not uniformly 'fundamentalist' in the Fred Phelps sense.) --Uncle Ed 16:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Arrangement of sections
I took the liberty of putting the "Limbo today" section earlier, to make a clear partition between Limbo in Catholicism and Limbo beyond Catholicism. Also, the former "Abolition of Limbo" section should be part of "Limbo today" in my judgment. Pepper2000 18:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Citation Needed
The statement "...many eminent theologians have argued that a merciful and just God would not condemn infants to the torments of hell" is completely unsubstanciated. It should be excised from the article. Some lay folks have made the argument, but the retort is always that man does not merit heaven. St. Thomas Aquinas and many of the fathers have stated as much. Trent is unambigious in stating that regeneration (baptism) is required for salvation (heaven.)

 * Tell it to the Pope. PiCo

Limbo in limbo
Just a head's up, limbo's in limbo Nil Einne 14:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Date
I swear to God I remember that Limbo was struck from the doctrine in 2006, not 2005. Am I wrong? Lord of Light 22:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC) I just checked, it was. So I'll change that. Lord of Light 22:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * off topic, but you might check first and swear then, or better, don't swear at all as there is obviously no need to do so and you could have changed the text even without assuring the rest by oath that what you did is fine. No offense, just as the article discusses a somewhat biblical matter. --77.4.66.158 (talk) 19:55, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

International Theological Commission's new document on limbo of children
(In preparation for discussion on the new document by the ITC)

I changed the reference to the date of the document. It was incorrectly shown as April 20, 1950. I changed to 2007.130.76.64.14 20:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Does this document have a name, and where may I find it? I would like to read it, thank you - Greg - 9:35PM - 22 April 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.84.20.21 (talk) 13:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

Church doctrine
This article has numerous incorrect claims about Cathoic Church teaching on limbo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.74.23.83 (talk) 16:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

If limbo is not a part of church doctrine, what is? Does this current event belong in the introduction? Hyacinth 20:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It is a traditionnal theological concept, that indeed has been taught, but never has been an article of faith. My catholic encyclopedia (with nihil obstat and imprimatur) defines it as bad answer to a question taken from the wrong side. Introduction seems a good place IMHO to say it is not doctrine, since this point is important and seems not to be obviously accepted. Michelet-密是力-Me laisser un message 04:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

One paragraph news briefs tend to oversimplify the situation. The CNS article better explains what happened. Limbo is a theological speculation; the ITC document explains that there are good reasons for a contrary speculation. Because it's a speculation and not doctrine, it's an issue of "hope" rather than of "faith". The Pope authorized publication and appears to support this as a private theologian, but it is not yet the final word on the subject. Gimmetrow 18:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Why should there be a "final word" on this subject, being said that it is not a matter of faith? this is final enough. Michelet-密是力-Me laisser un message 05:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There have been calls with the Church to get a doctrinal statement on this matter. There may yet be a final word. Jonathan Tweet 03:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

It is stated that Limbo is between Heaven and Hell. While this represents the popular view, it does not represent what the Church has taught. The Council of Carthage (418), approved by Pope St. Zozimus, explicitly condemned this idea: "Likewise it has been decided that whoever says that infants fresh from their mothers' wombs ought not to be baptized, or says that they are indeed baptized unto the remission of sins, but that they draw nothing of the original sin from Adam, which is expiated in the bath of regeneration, whence it follows that in regard to them the form of baptism "unto the remission of sins" is understood as not true, but as false, let him be anathema. Since what the Apostle says: "Through one man sin entered into the world (and through sin death), and so passed into all men, in whom all have sinned" [cf. Rom. 5:12], must not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who in themselves thus far have not been able to commit any sin, are therefore truly baptized unto the remission of sins, so that that which they have contracted from generation may be cleansed in them by regeneration." Moreover, Pope Pius VI (1717) condemns those who deny limbo, and describes limbo as being A PART OF HELL: "The doctrine which rejects (explodit) as a Pelagian fable, that place of hell (locum illum inferorum) — usually called by the faithful “Children’s Limbo” — in which the soul of those dying with only original sin are punished by the pain of loss without any pain of fire; and this taken to mean that by denying the pain of fire one can thereby necessarily postulate a middle state or place involving neither guilt nor penalty between the Kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as Pelagians have invented (fabulabantur) — [this doctrine is] false, rash, slanderous to Catholic schools.” (Auctorem fidei, August 28, 1794, The Condemned Errors of the Synod of Pistoia, Denzinger, #1526).  So it is a misunderstanding of the Catholic teaching on limbo to say it is between heaven and hell.--187.133.25.174 (talk) 04:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I learned a lot from this balanced, well-thought-out article by a Catholic priest: http://www.seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html --187.133.25.174 (talk) 04:59, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Lead
According to WP:LEAD, the lead should make you care about the topic. A certain editor, who is also keen to suppress information on original sin and purgatory, recently hacked the lead down to a pair of definitions. I restored the lead.

I agree with Lima that we can reduce coverage of the recent declaration that limbo might be unnecessary after all. It gets a ton of play in the lead, and it doesn't rate that much space there. I disagree that we should delete all reference to this new and exciting development from the lead. Jonathan Tweet 03:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I reverted this sentence to its original form; The term reflects the belief of some that the patriarchs of the Old Testament were kept here (a place, not a state) until Jesus descended to limbo after his crucifixion and saved them, as if his death itself were insufficient and the Harrowing of Hell, as pictured, were a necessary factual additional action, and not rather a way of describing the effect of Christ's death. Try reading this sentence aloud and its issues are evident. I believe that the editor was trying to indicate that most modern Catholics don't believe in the harrowing of hell in the same literal sense that the medievals understood. So now the sentence says: "The term reflects the medieval belief that the patriarchs of the Old Testament were kept here until Jesus descended to limbo after his crucifixion and saved them (see Harrowing of hell)." Jonathan Tweet 14:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Lima, could you please explain what facts you want supported in these lines? "The term reflects the medieval belief that the patriarchs of the Old Testament were kept here until Jesus descended to limbo after his crucifixion and saved them (see Harrowing of hell). The existence of this limbo is dogmatically defined by the Church." Are you challenging the verb "reflects"? Would you prefer some other verb, such as "relates to"? What's in question here? As for the second tag, you want a citation that Jesus went to limbo when he went to "hell"? As for that last line, here I might just be plain wrong. Limbo is in the Roman Catechism, which explains doctrine but isn't itself doctrinal. On that topic, I'd be curious to know whether there is any debate within the RCC regarding Limbo of the Fathers. For baby limbo, there are to alternative places that the unbaptized babies could go (hell or heaven). For the fathers of the OT, there sort of needs to be a third place (that is, spiritual condition). Jonathan Tweet 13:41, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Hypothetical?
Does hypothetical actually have a meaning when talking about theology? The use of the work in this article seemed strange to me. Shouldn't it be replaced with 'non-canonical' or something of the sort? Ashmoo (talk) 12:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * In a particular theology (here, Roman Catholic theology) some elements are accepted as facts, such as the Incarnation (Christianity), others are looked on as hypotheses, proposals that may explain something, but about which, within that particular theology, there is not certainty. Lima (talk) 14:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The article referred to limbo as a hypothetical state. I've changed that. Limbo is a hypothesis about a person's state, yes, but the hypothesis does not claim that the person in limbo is in a hypothetical state or say anything about the person being in some way hypothetical. DeniseMToronto (talk) 00:05, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Limbus Fatuorum
Limbus fatuorum is a limbo for the mentally ill or disabled who are not responsible for their sins. It can be translated as "fools' paradise" or literally as "lunatic fringe". I thought I'd add some mention of this to the article, but the article is so tightly constructed that there seems to be no room for it. References can be found by googling "Limbus fatuorum". Rwflammang (talk) 14:23, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Or Paradise?
Paradise is a term (and actually a more formal term) for Heaven, not a part of Limbo. Will there be weeping or gnashing of teeth if I remove the phrase "or Paradise" from the part about the Limbo of the Fathers? The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 23:55, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I presume that some user put this in because of "This day you will be with me in paradise" said to the Good Thief before the resurrection of Jesus. I think it likely that some writers have interpreted that phrase as supporting the idea of "paradise" as distinct from heaven in the full sense.  But until a reliable source is cited to support the insertion, I think it should be removed as no more than an illegitimate synthesis.  The same holds for the equation of the Limbo of the Fathers with the "bosom of Abraham".  I will remove both, so as to motivate any editor who wants them back in to find a reliable source that supports the identification of the concepts.  Esoglou (talk) 07:58, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Dante distinguishes the Paradise itself from the earthly paradise where Adam and Eve dwelt before the Fall, and which, according to what is his, of course, fiction, has been placed on the top of Purgatory. I don't know if that helps... As to my own view, the word "Paradise" may only for about 37 hours in history be used to refer to the Realm of the Dead, namely when it enjoyed the presence of the Word Incarnate. Abraham's bosom means indeed the Limbo, but is somewhat inaccurate after Abraham himself has left it, which common belief holds to have taken place immediately following Christ's Resurrection. --84.154.112.33 (talk) 13:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Problematic romancatholicism.org cite
"however, the directly opposed theological opinion also exists, namely that there is no afterlife state intermediate between salvation and damnation, and that all the unbaptized are damned.[5]"

This is true as far as it goes; but the context is specifically the beliefs of the Catholic Church, and while I'm sure some of the ~1.2 billion Catholics in the world do believe this, the site linked to is NOT (despite its misleading name of romancatholicism.org) in fact a (Roman) Catholic website but a sedevacantist one. I quote from http://www.romancatholicism.org/sedevacantism-reconsidered.htm:

"Therefore Ratzinger is no pope but an antipope. The faithful are to “withdraw obedience” from him and to “avoid” him as a “heresiarch”. ... He was never pope. Ab initio! ... John Paul II was also a heretic before his election, signing the documents of Vatican II. He too was an antipope and all of his acts, including his sacrilegious Canon Law, are null and void."

This is NOT a Catholic website, despite the misleading name! If we want to present this as a Catholic opinion, we should find a Catholic site.

(And this is entirely aside from the rather problematic scholarship on that site in general; e.g. citing Origen (whose suggestion that even demons would some day be saved and restored to Heaven was condemned by an ecumenical council) in support of the idea that most people will go to hell.) 128.194.250.58 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:33, 17 November 2010 (UTC).
 * True is that the limbo is properly speaking a part of hell; those in Limbo are not saved nor properly in an intermediate state between salvation and damnation which is impossible, but damned (damned = forbidden to partake of Seeing God Face to Face), see S. th. App II 2 where St. Thomas judges even probable the opinion that purgatory is a part of hell, though purgatory of course is not part of the hell of the damned. The notion of "intermediate" comes from the fact that they are not punished, and probably even succored by God's infinite Goodness with all natural joy possible (though, and that's the point, no supernatural joy). The opinion that "all the unbaptized are damned" is first of all simplifying, since literally it would exclude St. Abraham, St. Isaac, St. Jacob, all the prophets and St. Dismas, all of whom were canonized by Our Lord himself and all of whom were not baptized, unless St. Dismas unlikelily was baptized by Christ's disciples and this baptims was a proper Christian baptism and not only one of repentance (the latter is an open question). The opinion that Our Lord did not die for the unbelievers contradicts Holy Scripture, and though of course redemption by Our Lord and the potentially redeemed person's allowing this same redemption to take effect are different things, it is highly unlikely that Our Lord died for all the whole masses of unbelievers and gives them the necessary graces and then not even one of them would not resist them. Baptism of blood and at least strict Baptism of desire is Church doctrine; St. Thomas Aquinas, not only Dante, has taken for granted that Emperor Trajan is saved; to deny even the possibility of God to do so is an attack on His Omnipotence as well as Goodness. St. Thomas Aquinas even teaches that every adult unbaptized and, before Baptism, uncircumscised person decides for the direction towards good and towards evil, being the very first decision to do after gaining the use of reason, and that those who decide for good gain sanctifying grace.--93.133.213.147 (talk) 10:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Oh, I agree with you -- I was quoting the site, that's not MY opinion!
 * I don't think the use of the term 'damned' to apply to those in limbo is the normal use of the word though; Aquinas distinguishes between 'the hell of the lost' (which is our article's 'hell of the damned') and limbo. (Or, rather, limbos; the limbo of the Fathers (now empty/nonexistent after the Harrowing of Hell) is clearly distinguished from the limbo of unbaptized children.) 165.91.166.128 (talk) 01:45, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

"Artemis Fowl" Bullet
The "Artemis Fowl" bullet point under "Literature" is nearly incomprehensible. I'd fix it myself, but I haven't read the books and can't understand what the paragraph is driving at. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.15.106.162 (talk) 18:30, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

It seems to be gone from the article now but I have read the books and in Artemis Fowl And The Lost Colony Limbo is the place where demons live having been sent there after they lost a war on Earth. 86.45.9.91 (talk) 04:17, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Important quote from Saint Thomas Aquinas.
The following citation from Thomas' Summa needs to be included:

“Children while in the mother’s womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb.” (Summa Theologica IIIa, q.68, a.11, ad 1)

As the above text makes clear, Saint Thomas consider it possible for an infant to be saved without sacramental Baptism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.20.252.105 (talk) 23:00, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Additional citations from the Middle Ages.
St. Bernard of Clairvaux, a 12th-century theologian and a Doctor of the Church, wrote to a couple who had suffered a miscarriage:

"Your faith spoke for this child. Baptism for this child was only delayed by time. Your faith suffices. The waters of your womb — were they not the waters of life for this child? Look at your tears.  Are they not like the waters of baptism?  Do not fear this.  God’s ability to love is greater than our fears.  Surrender everything to God."

Jean Gerson, a prominent theologian, stated at the Council of Constance:

"women great with child, and their husbands, to use their prayers for their infant that is not yet born, that (if it be to die before it come to the grace of baptism with water) the Lord Jesus would vouchsafe to sanctify it beforehand with the baptism of his holy Spirit. Nay, who would not devoutly hope, that he will not despise the prayer of his humble servants that trust in him?  This consideration  is useful to raise devotion in the parents, and to ease their trouble of mind, if the child die without baptism; forasmuch as all hope is not taken away.  But yet there is, I confess, no certainty exists without a revelation." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.20.252.105 (talk) 13:14, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Catholic controversy
I was merely trying to express an issue that exists. Objectively the issue should be described. I tried not to add my own biases, and continued editing in that regard. Any edits to the section should merely help me stay objective- not to remove a section that explains an objectively valid issue. I stand open to style corrections.

This is similar to the controversy described on the page, extra ecclesiam nulla salus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.76.47.131 (talk) 22:57, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I have copied the above from my own Talk page, so that it can be discussed, as it were, publicly.
 * The problem with what you have written is the lack of citations of reliable sources in its support. Wikipedia accepts only what is already published in reliable sources, not original research by its users.  Please read WP:OR and WP:RS.  To help you, I have reworded your personal opening claim that there is a teaching or interpretation by the Church on the matter.  The preceding text in the article cites no official teaching of the Church on the existence or non-existence of a limbo of infants, but only views of theologians, ending with a study by a commission of theologians that declares the question open.  The most we can say is that some people say there is a Church teaching on the matter - if, of course, you are right in claiming that there are people who say that.  Now it is up to you to present reliable sources that show that there are in fact people who say that.  It is not enough for you yourself to say it.  That would be unsourced original research.  Esoglou (talk) 08:41, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

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Islam Citation
Hello guys, should the citation used for the paragraph about limbo in islam be changed as it cites a Primary source and doesn’t actually provide the information in the primary source? It should be changed to a secondary source where the information is taken from. Does anyone have suggestions on what secondary source is appropriate here ? Thinktank9238327 (talk) 01:19, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Original Research
The so-called "Popular references" section has been deleted as containing nothing but original research despite templates pointing this out dating from 2017. It should not be reinstated without discussion here. Sweetpool50 (talk) 20:46, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Luke 16:19–16:26
This passage is open to interpretation, and should come with a citation where it is placed under 'Christianity' in the article. 72.174.131.123 (talk) 07:23, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Limbo


text:
Talk:Brad Kane

Untitled
I got here from Aladdin, the cartoon movie, which I do not think included a professional wrestler, to which this redirects. Someone help.

Clarkefreak ∞ 03:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Merge with Caleb Kane
I think the the Caleb Kane entry should be merged with this entry since they are the same person.--Gmosaki 18:00, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Name
If he changed his name to Caleb, shouldn't the top of the page say Caleb Kane instead of Brad, it would make more sense if this is an up to date encyclopia.

Sunday In The Park With George & Evita
The article was written in a way that suggested he was part of the Broadway production of Sunday in the Park With George. He was actually in the Playwrights Horizons 25-performance workshop of the show, prior to the Broadway production. The role that he played, "Boy in the Water", was assumed by the actress who also played "Louise" (Danielle Ferland, who did both the workshop and the original Broadway production). Brad's only official Broadway credits are Grease and She Loves Me. He is not listed as ever having performed in Evita on Broadway. Perhaps he did one of the national tours or a regional production? Fshepinc (talk) 15:33, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Extinction (2018) ?
The movie Extinction links here with him as a writer but there's no mention on the page of it. Should I make an edit for this? Ansarya (talk) 05:56, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Brad Kane