text:
Orlando Sundogs

The Orlando Sundogs were an American soccer club created by Orlando Soccer pioneer Mark Dillon that played in the A-League in 1997. The team nearly folded before the end of the season, but were purchased by the Atlanta Ruckus. During the off season, the team tried to find a suitable venue for an A-League team outside the Florida Citrus Bowl, but ran out of options and time. Thus, the franchise was terminated by the USISL.

Orlando lost its playoff series to the New Orleans Riverboat Gamblers. The first game in Orlando was a 2–1 defeat in front of 500 fans, and the second game was a 6–2 loss. Steve Freeman and Sebastian Barnes were named to the Western Conference roster for the A-League all-star game. Marcos Marchado was 8th in the league with a 1.19 GAA in 26 games played.

title: Orlando Sundogs


text: User talk:86.42.4.201

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:86.42.4.201


text:
Javad Tabatabai

Seyyed Javad Tabatabai (14 December 1945 – 28 February 2023) was an Iranian philosopher and political scientist. He was Professor and Vice Dean of the Faculty of Law and Political Science at the University of Tehran.

Biography
Tabatabai, an Iranian Azeri, was born on 14 December 1945 in Tabriz, Iran. His father was a merchant in Bazaar of Tabriz. After pursuing studies in theology, law and philosophy in Tabriz and Tehran, he earned his PhD in political philosophy from the University of Paris 1 Pantheon-Sorbonne, with a dissertation on Hegel's political philosophy.

After coming to Iran, he was professor and deputy dean of the Faculty of Law and Political Science at the University of Tehran. In the 1990s, he was dismissed from his post as professor and deputy dean of the law school for criticizing the ideology of the Iranian government.

Then, he continued his research in other countries such as France, England, Germany and the United States: he was a guest fellow at the Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin, as well as at the Moynihan Institute of Global Affairs at Syracuse University. Tabatabai published around twenty books on the history of political ideas in Europe and Iran. On 14 July 1995, in France, he was decorated as a Knight of the Ordre des Palmes Académiques.

Tabatabai died on 28 February 2023 in Irvine, California, at the age of 77.

Views
Tabatabai, a leading theorist and historian of political thought in Iran, presented a controversial theory regarding the causes of the decline of political thought and society in Iran over the last few centuries. His ideas on Iranian decline have affected the intellectual debates on modernity and democracy currently underway in Iran. Tabatabai's career-long research revolved around this question: “What conditions made modernity possible in Europe and led to its abnegation in Iran?” He answered this question by adopting a “Hegelian approach” that privileged a philosophical reading of history on the assumption that philosophical thought is the foundation and essence of any political community and the basis for any critical analysis of it as well. In 2001, in an interview with Libération, he said that political and ideological Islam is already dead, because they have no plans for modernity.

Tabatabai rejected anti-Iranian irredentism and warned about the perils facing Iran from the provocations of pan-Turkism. Tabatabai defended Persian as Iran's national language and argued that the histories of Turkey and the Republic of Azerbaijan are ridden with forgeries and fabrications (see also: Pan-Turkism). During one of his lectures in Tabriz, he emphasized that the history of the "Baku Republic" (i.e. the Republic of Azerbaijan) is central to the history of Iran.

Awards

 * Ordre des Palmes Académiques - Paris (1995)
 * Farabi International Festival - Tehran

Books

 * Introduction to the History of Political Thought in Iran
 * Decline of Political Thought in Iran
 * Essay on Ibn Khaldun: Impossibility of Social Sciences in Islam
 * Nizam al-Mulk and Iranian Political Thought: Essay on the Continuity of the Iranian Thought
 * On Iran: An Introduction to the Theory of Decline of Iran
 * On Iran: Tabriz School and Basis of Modernity
 * On Iran: The Theory of Constitutionalism in Iran

title: Javad Tabatabai


text:
Student Awards Agency for Scotland

Student Awards Agency Scotland (SAAS) (Buidheann-tabhartais Oileanach na h-Alba) is an Executive agency of the Scottish Government. It supports eligible Scottish students by paying their tuition fees, as well as offering bursaries and supplementary grants. It also assesses students applying for loans. The Agency administers the Individual Learning Accounts Scotland scheme (ILA's) in partnership with Skills Development Scotland (SDS).

Funding provided
SAAS provides funding to students. Some of the most noteworthy are:

Tuition fees
SAAS pays the tuition fees of eligible Scottish and EU students. SAAS will pay these fees regardless of a student's financial situation.

Fee loans
SAAS can authorise loans to cover the tuition fees of Scottish students going to study elsewhere in the UK.

Student loans
Student loans are available to help with living costs. Student loans are paid by the Student Loans Company but students apply for their loan through SAAS. Any eligible student can apply for the minimum loan regardless of their income. The maximum loan is income assessed. The maximum loan that a young student can receive is £5,750, and the maximum loan for an independent student is £6750. However, if your household income is over £34,000 the maximum loan for a student is £4,750.

Students normally do not have to start repaying this loan until the April after they graduate or leave their course. The Student Loans Company (SLC) expect students to pay 9% of any income they earn over £17,335 a year. This threshold normally increases every year with inflation.

Bursary
A bursary is a non-repayable income-assessed grant to help students with living costs.

A young student can receive a bursary of up to £1,750. To be eligible to receive a bursary an applicant's family have to have a household income of no more than £33,999.

An independent student can receive a bursary of £750. To be eligible to receive the bursary an applicant's spouse/partner must earn no more than £16,999.

Bursaries for higher education students from Scottish households with an income of up to £24,000 will increase by £125 from academic year 2015/16 - raising the maximum available bursary for young students to £1,875, and £875 for independent students. From 2016/17 the household income threshold for receiving the maximum bursary will also be raised from up to £17,000 to up to £19,000.

title: Student Awards Agency for Scotland


text:
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Guqin playing technique
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title: User talk:CharlieHuang


text: User talk:85.74.3.254

title: User talk:85.74.3.254


text:
Talk:Lance Armstrong (cyclist)

This is the current Lance Armstrong page with the "Allegations of Drug Use" section chopped down to a reasonable size. Certain individuals had expanded that section by including large numbers of rumors and "suspicions" so it was eventually the size of the rest of the article combined.

title: Talk:Lance Armstrong (cyclist)


text:
Talk:Robert Plutchik

Untitled
I feel something is amiss here. --Bhadani 11:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I did a lot of re-org so that the subject came before the into of a concept. RJFJR 18:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

cites
This article needs some serious work, not to mention at least one citation. The external link "The Nature of Emotions" does not have info which correlates with the article's "eight primary emotions". See for yourself. FYI - it has me feeling something between curiosity and disgust, but since I can't make heads or tails of the wheel or the article I think it just means, I'm annoyed. This one may need to go to AfD or at the very least a merger with List of emotions, but even that one lacks third party cites. --Trippz (talk) 06:45, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Original source?
Looks like at least some of the material came from another site, as in the sentence "The circumplex model that we use on our website is actually seen as a cross-section of a three-dimensional cone shaped model of emotions." We need to get better citations or otherwise the article should go.

As it stands, the article almost entirely focuses on his theoretical work with very little biographical information at all. -- Kyle Maxwell (talk) 20:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

1980 or 1958?
On this page it states "Plutchik first proposed his cone-shaped model (3D) or the wheel model (2D) in 1958", but on the list of emotions page -- List_of_emotions -- it states "Robert Plutchik created a wheel of emotions in 1980". Does anybody know which date is correct? Reidlophile (talk) 23:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it's 1980 the correct one, based on ... I will change it right away. Ivan Akira (talk) 14:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Ref
It's not much, and I wouldn't even offer it except for the dearth if other sources. Plutchik and his wheel are referenced in the Forbes magazine essay by Jeff Boss, 'Four Steps To Increaae Your Emotional Agility (And Why You Should),' 5Oct2014. Unfortunately, Jeff's source seems to be Wikipedia. Sorry! rags (talk) 17:14, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:38, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Plutchik-wheel.svg

Publications
This author has over 260 articles and 8 books. Why does the Publications list instead contain only one contributed encyclopedia entry? Which articles and books are seminal/notable? Those should be listed instead. ParticipantObserver (talk) 14:17, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Robert Plutchik


text:
Alpha Psi Omega

Alpha Psi Omega National Theatre Honor Society (ΑΨΩ) is an American recognition fraternity for participants in collegiate theatre.

History
The Alpha Cast (Alpha Psi Omega's term for "chapter") was founded at Fairmont State University on 1925-08-12, by Professor Paul F. Opp.

Alpha Psi Omega was founded after Opp was denied charter petitions by both Theta Alpha Phi, the National Theatre Honors Fraternity, and the National Collegiate Players/Pi Epsilon Delta, which were unwilling to charter a chapter at Fairmont State College, then primarily known as a "teacher's college." The first student members of the society were Elinor B. Watson and Robert Sloan.

Membership is open to students (primarily undergraduate) who are active in collegiate/university theatre at four-year institutions (full colleges and universities). Most casts/chapters use a "point system" for determining membership eligibility, with a certain number of points earned for tasks in theatre. With some chapters, there is an induction/training process, while other chapters choose members solely on merit, where the theatre experience is considered the induction process. Honorary membership may be conferred on certain individuals (usually department faculty) after obtaining permission from the National Officers.

Delta Psi Omega
Delta Psi Omega National Theatre Honor Society (ΔΨΩ), Alpha Psi Omega's "Sister Society," was founded in 1929 as the official junior-college division of Alpha Psi Omega. Both societies are governed by the same national officers, yet have separate coat-of-arms and induction ceremonies. Delta Psi Omega is founded at two-year institutions (junior colleges/community colleges).

Opp and Alpha Psi Omega were also instrumental in helping to organize the Thespian Society, now known as the International Thespian Society (I.T.S.) the theatre honor society for high school students (also founded in 1929). With an original grant of $500, the society was able to help organize I.T.S. and help publish the first issues of the I.T.S. magazine. The International Thespian Society has since been assimilated into the Educational Theatre Association, but the influences can be seen in the similarities of both organizations' colors and induction ceremonies.

Members are most commonly referred to as "APOs". However, due to some confusion with members of the national service fraternity Alpha Phi Omega, some campuses refer to their members as "Alpha Psis" or "AYOs". Members of Delta Psi Omega are commonly known as "DPOs".

In 1997, under pressure from anti-fraternity sentiments nationwide, the national officers decided to update the public titles of the organization. This changed the official name of the society from "Alpha Psi Omega National Honorary Dramatic Fraternity" to "Alpha Psi Omega National Theatre Honor Society."

Symbolism and traditions
As was common practice in naming honor societies during that time, at the founding, Alpha Psi Omega was called "Alpha Psi Omega National Honorary Dramatic Fraternity" and used theatre-related terminology to refer to the honor society's officers and workings. Examples include:
 * President/National President – Director / Grand Director
 * Vice-President/National Vice-President – Stage Manager / Grand Stage Manager
 * Secretary-Treasurer/ National Secretary-Treasurer – Business Manager / Grand Business Manager
 * Chapter – Cast
 * Inductees – Understudies
 * National Officers – Grand Cast
 * National Convention – Grand Rehearsal

The open motto of Alpha Psi Omega, written in ancient Greek upon their coat-of-arms, is αιτειτε ψύχην ωφελιμον or "seek a life useful". The colors of Alpha Psi Omega and Delta Psi Omega are moonlight blue and bastard amber, from the names of the shades of lighting gels commonly used in theatre lighting. Its flower is the violet.

The fratenity's badge is monogram of the Greek letters ΑΨΩ. The Alpha Psi Omega coat of arms is designed to represent a Greek theater's stage. Its magazine is The Playbill.

National officers
The fraternity is oversee by an executive council called the Grand Cast.

Chapters
Alpha Psi Omega/Delta Psi Omega has installed 1,048 chapters. The society calls its chapters "casts". Chapters of Alpha Psi Omega are named with Greek Letter names according to the order in which they were chartered. Chapters of Delta Psi Omega use a number system for designation.

Notable members

 * Maxwell Anderson (Both Your Houses, High Tor, The Bad Seed)
 * Dan Blocker (Bonanza)
 * Jeff Coopwood (Star Trek: First Contact, Beverly Hills, 90210, The Wild Thornberrys, Seinfeld, The Bold and the Beautiful)
 * Dann Florek (Law & Order, LA Law)
 * Lillian Gish (Follow Me Boys and a number of silent movies; Broadway revivals of Uncle Vanya)
 * Ron Glass (Firefly, Serenity)
 * Robert Hegyes (Welcome Back Kotter)
 * Don Knotts (The Incredible Mr. Limpet, The Ghost and Mr. Chicken, Pleasantville, The Andy Griffith Show, Three's Company)
 * Sondra Locke (Willard, The Outlaw Josey Wales, Every Which Way but Loose, Sudden Impact)
 * Burt Mustin (Miracle on 34th Street, All in the Family, Petticoat Junction, Mame, Leave it to Beaver)
 * Olaf Odegaard, American artist and playwright
 * Eugene O'Neill (Playwright, Long Day's Journey into Night, The Iceman Cometh, A Moon for the Misbegotten)
 * Bill Pullman (Independence Day, Newsies, Spaceballs)
 * Stelio Savante (Ugly Betty, My Super Ex Girlfriend, What If..., Starship Troopers 3: Marauder, Corrado)
 * Jimmi Simpson (Loser, Rose Red)
 * Dulcé Sloan (The Daily Show, The Great North)
 * Robert Taylor (Ivanhoe)
 * Tennessee Williams, American playwright, author of The Glass Menagerie, and A Streetcar Named Desire.

title: Alpha Psi Omega


text:
Talk:Black Athena

Arbitrary section head
Since Afroasiatic refers to a language family, not to an ethnicity or culture, some comment about what is meant with "Afroasiatic roots" is needed. Is there any such term as "Orientocentrism", "Levantocentrism" to contrast with Eurocentrism and Afrocentrism? From "Afroasiatic" alone, it is not clear what the thesis has got to do with Afrocentrism, since Afro-Asiatic languages were spoken all over the ANE. dab (ᛏ) 11:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree, in face the domain of Afroasiatic hardly includes any of "black" and sub-Saharan Africa which is what almost anyone first encountering the term thinks of. Egyptian, Berber, Chadic, etc. and more importantly ALL of the semitic languages (so most of the middle-east) are Afroasiatic.209.2.229.73 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:32, 30 September 2010 (UTC).

 * I would disagree. The reason there is a need for Afrocentrism, is that the study of Africa from the point of view of Europe does a huge disservice to the history of Africa and the world. It is too easy to slip into the eurocentric point of view. Case in point. "'in face the domain of Afroasiatic hardly includes any of 'black' and sub-Saharan Africa which is what almost anyone first encountering the term thinks of. Egyptian, Berber, Chadic, etc. and more importantly ALL of the semitic languages (so most of the middle-east) are Afroasiatic.'" I have no doubt that this statement is well intended, but it falls into the trap of separating 'black Africa' from 'white Africa' or 'sub-saharan Africa' from 'not-sub-saharan Africa', also known as the Middle East, Near East, North Africa, East Africa, on various occasions. 1) All Afro-asiatic languages are from Africa, and 8 out of 9 are only spoken in Africa. The one that is spoken outside of Africa, Semitic, again has the greatest diversity (is the oldest) in East Africa, then Southern Arabia, then the Levant, then Mesopotamia. In other words, the greatest diversity is in East Africa, and the farther away you get from East Africa, the smaller the diversity of Semitic languages. This means that Semitic is an East African language family, part of the African mega language family of Afro-Asiatic. Arabic and Hebrew are languages of African origin. 2) The predominant haplogroup in 'sub-saharan Africa' is E1b1a. The predominant haplogroup in North and East Africa is E1b1b. E1b1a and E1b1b are very closely related, and originate between 20k and 30k years ago, in East Africa. These haplogroups are much closer to eachother than the haplogroups of Europe or the Middle East that aren't also E1b1b. In fact haplogroup E is a typical African haplogroup.MrSativa (talk) 01:48, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Although Afroasiatic normally refers to the Afroasiatic language family, it is clear that Bernal is not using it in this sense. In the Conclusion to his book, he refers to its theme way in which he sees, "...Western Asian and North African history over the past 10,000 years..." and particularly, "...cultural change across the Eastern Mediterranean in the second millenium BC." Bernal is therefore using "Afroasiatic" as an abbreviation for Western Asia and North Africa, particularly their Eastern Mediterranean parts. It was probably not very clever to use a term with a linguistic meaning covering languages spoken as far away from the Eastern Mediterranean as Nigeria and northern Kenya, and this confusing use of the term had led to associations with Afrocentrism. Shscoulsdon (talk) 14:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Interview
You may want to add links to two radio interviews of Martin Barnal on his "Black Athena" project, part 1 and part 2.

NPOV Badly Needed
Yow! One or two sentences devoted to the thesis, then a whole series to controversy; little explanation of actual arguments, pseudohistory category. Let's get to work. --Carwil 21:01, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Problem is that the book is not well regarded by any scholars of linguistics, archaeology or history. It is literally only a political setpiece for the Afrocentrism movement. There is a line between presenting Black Athena in a neutral light and presenting it as possibly true, which would be a travesty. How do we normally treat works that have been scientifically disproven? Surely we shouldn't present them as fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.66.45.117 (talk) 20:05, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Problem is that the book is not well regarded by any scholars of linguistics, archaeology or history. It is literally only a political setpiece for the Afrocentrism movement." The problem is that the thesis upsets a lot of people, who would like to think that their opinions are based on science, when they are just based on more myths - can you say 'the Greek miracle'? The strongest part of Black Athena, is that it documents the changing attitudes to Ancient Egypt and ancient history among the European elites throughout the last four centuries. For that alone, it should be read.MrSativa (talk) 02:03, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * It would be a waste of time since the book is only full of unproven theories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.86.4.223 (talk) 15:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Need help
This guy wrote three large volumes, he used literally thousands of references.
 * Then there should probably be more in line citations then I'm seeing now. --Pstanton (talk) 23:07, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

criticism
Should we include a criticism section in this page? For example show how he never is able to prove that it was central africans created the modern west. Or how he states specifically in his introduction that he intends to prove a point that has bearing on the civil rights movement? The Isiah 07:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

 * An account of controversy around Bernal's work can certainly appear here. It should of course be expressed in neutral terms (what is here now uses loaded language, and falls down in places when judged by the NPOV policy). Charles Matthews 09:20, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Ten months since concerns were raised. Any progress on providing substantial content to balance the thinly supported but strongly pressed "conflicting views" section?

Perhaps somebody should send Bernal an e-mail?

SkepticL 23:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Don't think that's necessary. In order to give readers of all points of view confidence in the article's neutrality, the article structure should simply be as follows: describe the arguments of the three volumes, in order, but not in as much detail as chapter by chapter; then a section "responses" where all scholarly reviews and responses, as well as reviews in the serious press are presented. The responses section can either be in chronological order, or with the favourable views first and the unfavourable ones after. Itsmejudith 17:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sending Bernal an e-mail would seem to be the very definition of original research. We should be looking for reliable secondary sources. Msalt (talk) 15:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Bad article!
Maybe someone who is not totally against the book (Black Athena) should have written the article. An unbiased opinion is seriously needed. This should be an article about Black Athena not conservative views about the books. since plenty of focus in this article was placed on debunking it, maybe at least some attention can be placed on the supporting arguments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pharmicon (talk • contribs) 13:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I completely agree. There are too many cheap characterisations throughout ('so-called', etc.).MrSativa (talk) 02:05, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I agree with the above comments. Unfortunately, I haven't read Black Athena, so I can't help much there. But I did remove the sentence noting that some obscure conservative group had listed Black Athena as one of the worst books ever written (my cat could write a list of the worst books ever written, but it doesn't mean that list belongs as a source on Wikipedia.) I checked their list, and it also included famous works by Alfred Kinsey and Margaret Meade, among others--not necessarily my favorite books, but both accepted classics in their fields. It made me think the list is politically motivated and not concerned with academic content, so its inclusion here violated Wikipedia's neutrality policy. I also removed the link to the book list at the bottom of the page. The other links point to the debate about the book, and so are more appropriate here because they represent a wide range of opinions about this book.

I am changing the statements claiming that the thesis was conclusively disproved by Mary Lefkowitz's work. She certainly takes an opposite point of view, but taking her claims as given is no more reasonable than taking Bernal's statements as given. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theblade82 (talk • contribs) 05:45, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Only her claims are proven facts not science-fiction pseudohistory like Bernal's.
 * I agree with Theblade82, Lefkowitz was controversial in her own right and an outlier within the criticism of Bernal. "Disproved" is a judgment that should come from a reliable secondary source, not something a Wikipedia editor should make, whether willing to sign their name or not. Msalt (talk) 16:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

POV
I would suggest that the article does need some rebalancing and that the way to approach this is to ensure that Bernal's arguments are properly summarised before we say how they were received. We could probably also find some more favourable responses. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:57, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The article should include a thorough discussion of the book. It may also be helpful if both sides of the controversy are equally portrayed, so it is less biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lbeaulieu1 (talk • contribs) 22:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Bad...
As per: "In 2003, the Intercollegiate Studies Institute (a group known for having distinctly American Conservative views[1]) listed Black Athena as one of the worst books of the twentieth century." I hereby nominate this article as one of the worst on the wikipedia...Colin4C (talk) 21:26, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Phoenician civilization is not actually African,
..it's from what we now call the Middle East.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.187.228 (talk) 16:58, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

 * No, but it is Afroasiatic. Afroasiatic refers to a language group which includes (among others) all the semitic languages (including phoenician), egyptian, berber, etc.209.2.229.73 (talk) 15:29, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Phoenicia was located in the eastern Mediterranean in roughly the location of present day Lebanon. There is no means by which it could by any stretch be considered African. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CannotFindAName (talk • contribs) 16:27, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Phoenicia is a location. It used to be a satellite of Ancient Egypt. Phoenician belongs to the Semitic language family, which is most proliferous in East Africa, and is a member of the Afro-Asiatic super language family which is almost exclusively African (almost, except for Semitic). Phoenicia and Palestine border Egypt, which is where the African continent officially begins. Oh and they indirectly received their alphabet from Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. So much for Phoenicia having 'nothing to do' with Africa.MrSativa (talk) 01:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Phoenician civilization WAS actually African,
Clearly, our approach to teaching history and geography needs to be completely revamped. Using the post-modern invention "Sub-Saharan" Africa to infer the existence of an isolated, noncontributing culture in the ancient world is tantamount to using "Sub-Alpine" Europe to describe the ancient inhabitants of Greece and Rome. Lest we forget, the so-called "Middle East" is a 20th century invention. Please read the Karl E. Meyerarticle in the New York Times on March 13, 1991. Electromagnolia (talk) 15:30 21 November 2011 (UTC)

--There is nothing "post modern" about the term sub Saharan Africa. There are significant geographical, terrain, cultural, historical, ethnic, and racial differences between North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa (the latter fact obviously being unpopular with Afrocentrists). If the Afrocentrists had their way they'd probably want to redefine Africa as beginning at the Alps so they could lay claim to Greece and Rome. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CannotFindAName (talk • contribs) 16:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Bernal was talking about Western Asian and North African history and particularly cultural change across the Eastern Mediterranean. Phoenicia was located in the east Asia, but Phoenician civilization also flourished in Carthage and coastal Algeria (North Africa), western Sicily, Sardinia and southern Spain (Europe), though not sub-Saharan Africa. It is just as wrong to day it was not African as that it was African, if these terms are used to exclude alternatives. Carthage in particular had roots in Phoenicia, but developed in North Africa where most of its population was local, not migrants from east Asia. I am very far from agreeing with a lot of what Bernal said and don't think his arguments are quite as original or convincing as he would like us to believe, but there is some merit in looking at links across the Mediterranean. Shscoulsdon (talk) 15:46, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Mainstream historians have already looked and written extensively about it. It is silly to deny Phoenician colonies as being Phoenician, but that's nationalism for you. Not singling anybody out because they're all pretty much guilty. Carthage was in Africa and Carthage was founded by Phoenicians. Carthage was in Africa. The problem for Afrocentrists is that Africa is a very large continent and North Africa may as well have been (and still is) a separate continent from Sub-Sahara Africa. Afrocentrism is more than a form of nationalism, it considers all of Africa to be black Africa when it was not at all. Ethnic Berbers are not black. Egyptians were and still are not black. Blacks have been there but always as a minority. The horn is a little different, but even the Ethiopians didn't use to be Sub-Saharan. They came from India and Arabia and whatever "black" they were was ethnically different from Sub-Saharan (more like Dravidian and Yemen).

 * The book title was probably intended to be controversial in order to sell copies. Mainstream historians don't argue about North African, Egyptian, or even Semitic contact with the Greeks. Greek history and mythology clearly indicates ancient ties to the Phoenicians and this is reflected in myths. Also, I'm not aware of many historians argue for a central or western "Aryan" origin of the Greeks other than the Greek dark age migrations and invasions. The myths are related to Hittites and also Indo-European ("Aryans" but from the East)

This is silly, nobody here is even talking about Mycenaean vs Minoan Greece, or even Mycenaean greece vs classical greece. Nobody is talking about babylonian and canaanite influence of phoenicia(some are talking about the hittites). What I see here is plenty of people not even knowing the difference between classical greece and bronze age greece, and theres even one person that doesnt even know the difference between antiquity and the middle ages. It is undeniable that bronze age civilizations had tremendous influence on bronze age greece, but to say that Egypt was black so Phoenicians were black so Athena was black is pure conjuncture. What is up for discussion is how pre-classical greece was ruled and how long Mycenaean and Minoan Greece either coexisted, or when the exact date of the switch occurred. 128.129.49.7 (talk) 18:05, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Good
I don't see much wrong with this article. As Niebuhr would have pointed out, it's simply bad history to interpret the past by the standards of the present; and as someone with a classics degree I can appreciate that Bernal did this in bucketsful (another major point which hasn't been mentioned here is that he assumes that "Africa" is one homogeneous cultural unit and "Europe" another, but in fact the indications are that north Africa, including crucially for his argument Egypt, was as culturally independent of sub-saharan Africa as Persia was).

As an academic exercise in originality, Bernal's work is brilliant. As history it's rubbish; and the article here, as it should, quite dispassionately points out the series of informed authorities who have said so.

My own view is that Bernal was working to an agenda set by US guilt over North American slavery (which also finds it convenient to treat all the different African cultures as equivalent). That is an interesting intellectual phenomenon in its own right, and may require its own article. But it doesn't justify being elevated to the status of political correctness and then used to distort our view of what actually happened in the past. Deipnosophista (talk) 10:20, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I don't see how your opinion is helpful. The debate about Bernal's theory is well worked-out.  The question seems to be how to get the section of the article describing the book to be longer than the criticism section.131.96.91.191 (talk) 19:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not so much that Bernal's core hypothesis is wrong, it's that he is quite apparently completely unqualified to say anything about it. It had been worked out by the actual experts during the 1970s that the influence of the Orient had been underestimated in 19th and early 20th century scholarship. It is difficult to understand how somebody can take it upon themselves to present this as a revelation in 1987. It is sad that the real progress in scholarship goes all but unnoted by the "popular" readership while incompetent and ideologized stunts like this get all the attention. Apparently real scholarship just isn't sexy enough to command any attention or respect. --dab (𒁳) 20:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Dab, The only thing that is WRONG is the Eurocentric crap they teach in history class to our younger generation. You use words like incompetent and ideologized stunts. The ideologized stunts are those presented in grade school when young people are force fed lies. Lies that Africans made no real contribution to the world and that Europeans were more advanced than Africans. Lies that colonists only encountered Africans that were primitive subhuman savages. History teachers leave out that there were advanced Sub Saharan African civilizations.  The fact that there are pyramids in Nubia.  A black African region. Why is that left out?   They leave out the Mali Empire, the Ghana empire and countless other African kingdoms. They leave out the great Mansa Musa who was probably the wealthiest man in the world at the time. They leave out Timbuktu that is home to the first university in the world. You have incompetent "qualified" teachers teaching incomplete and inaccurate history.  What progress in scholarship is that? When you say real scholarship just isn't sexy enough to command any attention or respect. The fact is most people who went to school in America had to learn very biased history and were forced to regurgitate this wrong information on tests, exams and term papers. This is what is sad. 216.0.117.4 (talk) 17:56, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

 * What is sad is the fact that persons like you IP actively promote all that revisionist crap. Your ignorance about the Timbuktu 'university' is hilarious!

 * The Sahelian kingdoms only went back to the Middle Ages, and they cannot be separated from Islam's influence. The so-called university of Timbuktu was a series of mosques, and it was not founded until the 12th century AD. Mansa Musa was a 14th century ruler who was also a devout Muslim. The Nubian pyramids came long after the Egyptian pyramids, and they pale in comparison. Aside from the Nubians, none of the examples are ancient, and none of the examples are free from foreign influence.76.107.33.178 (talk) 02:11, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "The Nubian pyramids came long after the Egyptian pyramids, and they pale in comparison." Actually the Nubian pyramids are older than the Egyptian pyramids, there are more of them, and it is in Nubia that you can observe the development of the pyramid, which eventually culminated in the Great Pyramid of Giza.MrSativa (talk) 00:03, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I agree that it is very sad that much of African and Asian history is left out of grade school teaching, but young people being "force fed lies,"? That is a bit extreme. While there needs to be a more global-centric emphasis in history, the fabrications and manipulations of facts that are presented in Black Athena does not right any wrong, but instead turns people against each other. Africa made huge contributions to the world, and no one is denying that. Yet synthesizing history in order to make up for past brush-offs does not even things out - it simply spreads misinformation. Let's teach the truth, such as how Africa is literally the homeland of all living people and how Europe was not the only place where cool history took place, but not overstretch. Anyway, this wikitalk page really isn't the place for this. 128.135.100.102 (talk) 03:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Needs Improvement
I agree with most of the above comments. This article needs a lot of work. First off it's confusing to most people who read it. I have a whole class of college students who think that. Second, there needs to be more references. My suggestion would be to better explain the Black Athena conterversy. Make it easy for someone, who has never heard of the issue, to understand what is being argued and the different perspectives. Also add some perspective of people who agree with Bernal because there really aren't any from that point of view. --LittleDuck17 (talk) 23:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Excellent. The way wikipedia works is that those who make suggestions have to implement them. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 00:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

reversion 10 October 2012
(copied from user talk page) May I ask why you reverted my three edits on the Black Athena article? what did I do wrong? yannako — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yannako (talk • contribs) 13:56, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I reverted because the article was tolerably well-balanced, and your edits altered that balance to push the anti-Bernal POV. My attention was imediately drawn by two uses of the word "claim" (see WP:WTA) and the purely abusive word "Pseudohistory". The edits introduced no sourced information, just opinion. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 17:12, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

This article is biased.
Simply reading through this article, its obvious that the entire thing is biased against Banal. This is an encyclopaedia. We're not trying to argue in favor or against a particular person! I don't have a copy of this book so I can't fix it myself, but even without reading it I can tell that this article is seriously messed up and should probably be rewritten from scratch. 19:58, 4 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.1.150 (talk) 19:56, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Even if Banal was totally wrong, that doesn't mean that it's Wikipedia's policy to tear him a new one! We must maintain a level of decorum and an air of neutrality if the integrity of this foundation is to be maintained. Even if you think that this was an insignificant and entirely wrong publication by someone who was both naïve and delusional, what gives you the right to make that point in an encyclopaedia of all things! The treatment of Black Athena here is prejudicial, unnecessarily derogatory, and frankly insulting Banal, to the readers here, and to the integrity of the wikipedia foundation. 76.126.1.150 (talk) 20:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Shameless Promotion Removed
Please stop. Marsh, Herbert (2009). Horae Pelasgicae. BiblioBazaar, LLC. ISBN 978-1-113-07175-0. (Reprint from 1815 edn.) has been removed. It is cluttering. This source is not concerned in anyway with foreign sources of greek, or Pelasgian, for that matter. Further and worst, it hasn't been used in the thesis synopsis(ed) (allow it please). --Connection (talk) 20:51, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Pseudohistory
Anyone have a problem with removing this article from the category "History books about ancient Greece" and replacing it with "Pseudohistory", since that is the current scholarly consensus?142.105.159.60 (talk) 04:48, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

 * If you want to make that change, then you need to provide evidence that "pseudohistory" is, in fact, the current scholarly consensus. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:49, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Does this count?142.105.159.60 (talk) 14:40, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

 * No, it doesn't. It doesn't even mention the word "pseudohistory", still less establishing that this is the consensus. Can't people just accept that his thesis is controversial, and worth critical study? SamuelTheGhost (talk) 18:47, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

 * What do reliable sources say? Do they back the argument that it belongs in either? How many sources do we need to make pseudo history a suitable navigation aid for those looking for such books? Doug Weller  talk 19:51, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Controversial? He's claiming that ancient Greeks were actually Africans, and his reasoning amounts to little more than "19th century racists didn't want to admit that Ancient Greeks were black".142.105.159.60 (talk) 03:23, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Recent discoveries in genetics have proven him right. Much of the male popularion of the Peloponnese has East African haplogroup E1b1b, just like the Egyptians today. It is thought that E1b1b spread beyond Africa and Egypt through the Natufians and related people. The only question is when E1b1b spread from Egypt to Greece and the rest of the Mediterranean. MrSativa (talk) 15:30, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * This is another false claim made by an ex-scientist just as the pseudohistorical theories of Bernal. So no, even MORE recent discoveries hasve proven him wrong AGAIN. 2.86.4.223 (talk) 15:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
 * SamuelTheGhost is correct that you need a source actually calling the book "pseudohistory". Otherwise, the category is too controversial. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:37, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Didn't you search? I found several easily. Doug Weller  talk 06:54, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * No I did not search, as I am only marginally interested in this topic. Good for you if you found sources, however. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 06:59, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

When scholarly presses produce new material re-examining and extending a work, that's an overwhelming sign it's not regarded as pseudohistory by a consensus of scholars. A maximally critical statement of the scholarly consensus comes from Mary J. Lefkowitz, who is involved in the controversy as a critic of Bernal:
 * "most scholars of the ancient world believe that Bernal has vastly overstated the degree of Egyptian influence  on  Greece  and  misinterpreted  such  evidence  as  there is, especially in the case of his proposed new etymologies."

On the other hand, archaeologist and Egyptologist Richard Lobban writes:
 * "space only allows me here to conclude that Bernal was an ‘incessant visionary’ steering a useful course away from Eurocentric hegemony despite many details that invite further debate."

And Classicist Alastair Blanshard writes that African Athena (the book cited above) "revivifies Black Athena for a new audience and lays down a challenge about how 'black classics' should look.

So, controversial and disputed but not pseudohistory.--Carwil (talk) 18:46, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

 * I’ve just been browsing reviews on JSTOR, and I’m inclined to agree, although it‘s a borderline case. The general theme is that Bernal is mostly wrong but has provoked reëxamination of evidence and useful debate on such questions as migration vs diffusion. “The Greeks were black“ seems to me a caricature of his claims; although his work became something of a ‘poster child‘ for the extreme Afrocentric fringe, no doubt encouraged by his politicized approach and rhetoric, the substance of it appears much less whacky than that. The nearest thing to “pseudohistory“ I came across was M.M. Levine saying that Black Athena Revisited (ed. Lefkowitz & G.M. Rogers, 1998) conveys a sense that Bernal “is well on the way to marginalization into his own specter of a figure of ‘sterile crankiness‘,“ but she considers the book to be unfairly one-sided, exhibiting “intellectual protectionism“.  None of the articles I read would go as far as an unqualified dismissal.—Odysseus 1 4 7  9  22:13, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

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Egyptian origin of Greek words
Of course Bernal is a joke. He sees correctly, that there are lots of roots in Greek vocabulary, that cannot be traced back to an Indo-European root. And then Bernal looks into an Egyptian dictionary and finds all these roots. The joke is, this dictionary is Czerny's Coptic dictionary! Coptic is a late stage of the Egyptian language and a mixture of Greek and Egyptian words. So it's just the other way round. All these words found their way from Greek to Egyptian via the Gospel.--183.182.120.170 (talk) 10:35, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Editor bias and censorship
On Sept. 4th 2019 I had added a section on Genetics citing recent genomic research by Lazaridis and colleagues, published in the highly acclaimed journal Nature (Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans, 2017). This study directly rejects any significant genetic contribution of Levantine or African settlers to the Aegean populations, thus directly disproving Bernal's wild hypotheses. To my surprise, the addition was instantly censored by "Freeknowledgecreator" with the following excuse: ''Thank you, but the addition has very little to do with the subject of the article - I looked up at the Nature article; the only connection it has with "Black Athena" is that it cites the book a single time. That makes it undue to include such an addition''. If Freeknowledgecreator has really read (and understood) the above paper, I challenge him/her to publicly explain WHY the above article (which directly and unequivocally disproves Bernal's controversial hypotheses with hard genetic data) is, according to the editor, "undue". I must say that such biased and irresponsible censorship is not flattering for Wikipedia.

 * My removal of your addition was not "censorship". The relevant policy is WP:NPOV, especially the section WP:PROPORTION, which states, "An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject." An article that has no connection with Black Athena except that it cites it a single time is obviously minor in relation to Black Athena. I don't care that you think the article refutes Bernal. It is irrelevant to me whether it does or not, since the article isn't about his book and has almost no connection to it. If you can find an article that is actually about Black Athena, and claims to refute it, then by all means summarize it here, so long as it was published in a reliable source. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 06:04, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

 * Your addition read, "In a 2017 publication in Nature by Iosif Lazaridis and colleagues, genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete and Mycenaeans from mainland Greece was successfully analysed. The authors colcluded that there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Mycenaeans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists." Not a word of that is even about Bernal or Black Athena. Why then be surprised that it was removed? Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 06:22, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

 * Bernal's wrong, but we can't use that source., I think we need to remove the last paragraph at Thor Heyerdahl for the same reason, plus the fact that it's a new article, not a reliable source for archaeology.  Doug Weller  talk 07:32, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

If you had actually bothered reading the paper, you would have noted that reference 22 cited by Lazarides et al. (2017) directly refers to Bernal's Black Athena and his claims that Greece had been colonised by Egyptian and Phoenician colonists. The absence of any measurable ancestry from these populations in Bronze Age Mycenaeans and Minoans provides hard genetic evidence against such alleged colonisation/s. So your claim that "not a word of that is even about Bernal or Black Athena" is simply false, you obviously have not read the paper and did not check the reference list, or did not understand it, or you are lying. In fact, you are contradicting yourself in the previous message when you admit that Black Athena had been indeed cited by Lazarides et al. (2017). And there is a very specific context in which it was cited: At the very core of Bernal's hypothesis was that Greece had been colonised by Egyptian and Phoenician settlers, who "civilised" the illiterate locals. Lazarides et al. (2017), but also other papers (I can cite them too if you wish), provide hard genetic evidence that such alleged "colonisations" never took place, as they are not detectable in the genetic profile of Bronze Age Aegeans and Greeks. This, therefore, not only refutes but directly debunks Bernal's theoretical claims for which no evidence exists. How exactly is this not relevant?

46.251.117.65 (talk) 14:46, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Was Black Athena first published by Rutland Local History & Record Society?
I have been having a discussion with User:Freeknowledgecreator on their talk page about the entry in the infobox of this article saying that Black Athena was published by Rutland Local History & Record Society. I have been referred by him to  and by User:Ian.thomson to. These both show the publisher as Rutland Local History & Record Society. However, this shows it as published by Rutgers University Press. This also shows the 1987 publisher as Rutgers University Press.

Black Athena does not appear as a publication on the website of Rutland Local History & Record Society.  You can see that the publications of this society are related to the local history of Rutland, as you would expect. It is inherently implausible that a controversial book about the racial politics of ancient history written by an academic at an American university should be published by the local history society of a small county in England. If it had been, this would have been newsworthy, and I cannot find any reference to this on the internet. The reference by Amazon to Rutland Local History & Record Society must be a mistake.

Any comments? Sweet6970 (talk) 19:05, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

"Dubious" annotation added by someone
I have noticed a "dubious" annotation has been added to my addition to the overview of this article: "Bernal himself has been accused of pursuing political motives and enlisting Bronze Age Greece in an academic war against Western civilisation".

Regardless whether one might agree or disagree with this statement, this accusation is factual and was made by D. Gress in his review paper "The case against Martin Bernal" (1989), published in The New Criterion 1: 36–43. Gress specifically writes: "Who would have thought it possible to enlist Bronze Age Greece in the current academic war against Western civilization?...Just this is Martin Bernal’s objective in his recent book, Black Athena, subtitled The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization. Bernal, professor of government at Cornell University, a former Sinologist...tells his readers candidly that “the political purpose of Black Athena is, of course, to lessen European cultural arrogance.” Apart from the fact that this charge has become a straw man—the chief problem in the academy today isn’t European cultural arrogance but its opposite— Bernal’s account, and the political circumstances in which it appears, raise some important questions about scholarship and propaganda in the academy and, a fortiori, in what remains of the general culture".

Considering Bernal himself has openly stated in the introduction of his book that "the political purpose of Black Athena is, of course, to lessen European cultural arrogance", Gress has a point. Gress's critique and the relevant citation of his paper are provided in the main text below under "criticism". As far as I understand from other Wikipedia articles, the overview of an article provides no citations but simply a summary of what is included in the main article, is this not the case? If it is necessary, many citations can be directly added in the overview/introduction as well, including the statement stating the obvious, that "Black Athena has been heavily criticised by academics" (to which someone has also added that a citation is needed). I have simply refrained from adding the long list of relevant citations in the overview because these are discussed and cited under "Criticism". In fact, many more review papers and criticism of this book can be added, which has received overwhelmingly negative reviews and has been discredited by academics.

Please clarify whether citations are to be added in the summary as well. Otherwise, the relevant citations are all provided in the main text and do not need to be repeated in the overview in my opinion.

46.251.117.65 (talk) 07:06, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

 * The relevant guideline is MOS:LEADCITE. Basically, while it is a common practice to remove citations from the lead once there's a stable and well-referenced article in which the lead only contains a summary, there is explicitly no prohibition on adding citations to the lead, and when something is regularly challenged or in some other way controversial it may be a good idea to add a citation to the lead anyway. So I added a citation to the part that was tagged 'dubious', for the time being. ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 16:49, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The criticisms of Bernal are well-represented in this article, both generally and in the lede. It seems unnecessary and non-encyclopedic to include specific criticisms from individual authors in the lede, since they are raised later in the article. It seems more appropriate to include only the summaries in the lede. Therefore, I am going to remove these last two points from the lede: "The book has also been accused that, by "reopening the nineteenth-century discourse on race and origins," it "has become part of the problem of racism rather than the solution that its author had envisioned." Bernal himself has been accused of pursuing political motives and enlisting Bronze Age Greece in an academic war against Western civilisation." Msalt (talk) 16:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Black Athena


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gerry Rosi

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. - Mailer Diablo 06:01, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Gerry Rosi
Delete - Non notable musician. One relevant Google hit, which is his own Geocities site. PubLife 11:40, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn-bio. --DrTorstenHenning 13:02, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Speedy Delete please, per A7. Dottore So 19:23, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable. *drew 00:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Talk:Marginal revenue

July 2007
what is the effect of mr. of a firm to that of industry Economics is Hard

Economics is easy. read your textbook.

what does 'd' stand for?
 * It stands for "derivative"; think of it as difference for a small change (strictly speaking, infinitesimal change). --Sabik 03:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

i dont agree with the assertion "When marginal revenue is equal to zero, price elasticity of demand is equal to 1." because if revenue equals price times quantity sold, and price elasticity of demand is equal to the percentage change in quantity demanded divided by the percentage change in price, then for price elasticity to be plus one, a positive increase in price would increase demand, and this implies an increase in revenue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.38.217.40 (talk) 16:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

the coefficients of price elasticities of demand are always negative - economists conventionally use absolute values when discussing price elasticities of demand (PED)- at the point of unitary elasiticity the coefficient is negative 1 - abosulte value 1. A decrease in the price would move you into the inelastic range of the demand curve - for price decrease in inelastic range total revenue falls - if you were to raise prices thus moving into the elastic range total revenue would also fall. thus at unitary elasticity total revenue is at its maximum value which implies that MR = zero.--Jgard5000 (talk) 11:07, 27 September 2009 (UTC)jgard5000

Marginal revenue is the amount received from selling one extra unit of output

formula MR= TRn - TRn-1 units

Asaad Abduljawad Ksadentist (talk) 02:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

In arabic

الترجمة الحرفية الربح الهامشي تعريفه هو الكمية المالية المستلمة من بيع قطعة إضافية من المنتج

أسعد عبدالجواد Ksadentist (talk) 02:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Graph doesn’t display
The graph in the lead doesn’t show the curves on my screen. Since this is the first time I’ve encountered this, I don’t think the problem is due to my machine or my display capabilities. Could someone look into this and make the graph universally readable? Thanks. Loraof (talk) 18:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

 * Fixed. Loraof (talk) 04:54, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Business economics
About marginal revenue 157.51.99.100 (talk) 07:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Marginal revenue


text:
Talk:Civil service

Untitled
what is civil service?and its history — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.69.13.58 (talk) 11:41, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Other meanings
Civil sevice also means a form of "legal" conscientious objection. It should be noted carefully that e.g. the finnish "siviilipalvelus", the swedish "civiltjänst" and german "civildienst" all - and quite literally - mean, or can be translated to "civil service". Should there be a disambiguator for this entry? This has caused a lot of confusion when talking to foreigners ;) Ludvikengelbrekt 15:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Good suggestion. I've added a new section to cover this. StuRat 15:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge
No merge. Public sector and civil service are not the same thing. Workers in the NHS in the UK for instance are public sector workers but not civil servants. The UK even has a further division in this called Crown servants which are technically separate again from public and civil. MLA 06:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

 * No merge. as above - but note all crown servants are civil servants but maye not vice versa as parts of the civil service are either privatised or given agency status. Public sector includes much more than Civil service Johnmarkh 02:14, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Indeed, agreed completely.
 * James F. (talk) 18:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Civil and Civilian services are one and the same. Public includes non-civilian or alien peoples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.145.239.10 (talk) 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Public sector and civil service are not the same thing. agreed, and a common misconception, confusing Local Government workers as Civil Servants Fankle Meerkat (talk) 20:56, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

UK US

 * 1) QUANGO in the lead is not applicable to the US. Since the article has sections on both, I made an attempt at a fix.
 * 2) I've lowercased the US civil service where appropriate. It is only capitalized in titles of legislative acts. DGG 05:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It is not immediately clear when you look at the UK table what the numbers mean. They count the number of thousands employees, but it takes a bit of effort to realise that. I will make a change, but there may be something better to change it to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.148.178.245 (talk) 17:42, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Illustration
The illustration of the Virgin Mary registering is linked as being during the Byzantine Empire, but that empire didn't arise until hundreds of years later. StuRat 14:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I asked about this on the Humanities Ref Desk today and the answer seems to be that, although the mosaic was made during the Byzantine Empire, the period shown was under the Roman Empire. I've therefore changed the caption. StuRat 15:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Legal accommodation
…It has come to my decision that a taxpayer is a legal accommodation of the Agency of Government Affairs. And through the protection of the Individual right to bear access to the course, then a civil right has become a civil servant. Noting that a servant may represent something or another, if one was to form a title upon an advertisement for hire this service of recommendation towards the civil liberties of another, then to have a right to bear such civil service and perhaps in ordinance with authority would be a defence.David George DeLancey (talk) 11:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

{[The Qualities of a Contract}] 2:18 P.M. E.S.T. David George DeLancey Art Economics History. Wiki contributer of methoding tallents.

In a Sequence to perform a duty, one will have a representation. All representation or an alliance with the affiliate.

In Government a sequence of representation is a format to hold, of course we are all bound to the degree of each other. In the effort of study and a gathered acquaintance of property one has the approach of collecting time within the security.

A titled rperesentation of a company is an effort to share extended Properties, thus why in a final degree of survival a currency is somewhat the effects of the shared acquaintance. Though while leaving the method of security to yet still be in security the maintenance of thought still, as well being, is the surety of creation.

In a temporary method of securing a property a civil defence of standard approach is now affiliated, thus having the time consuming relation towards an invitation, a property will be an effect.

In A Temporary alliance with a company the idividual whom represented it will have the occasion of procedure to contend with. Perhaps in an economical degree and or way the evaluational categories of any or a, and the approach towards a surity will be a conduction still in alliance.

In a Governing a standard has the approach of ending; Thus promoting a set beginning, the company and or degree will have the authority to recommend a safe have in it's course.

The remidy of settlement is required by any format of standard, thus representing another through time.

A perception of a talent is a Property Being. A Property Being is two separate occasions which are established through the well being of characteristics. Thus making a Civil Servant and Public Servant in same; Regard. D.G.DeL-Dorchester Mass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by D.G.DeL-Dorchester Mass (talk • contribs) 18:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Distinct meanings

 * 1) Professional employees of a government (and something about testing).
 * 2) Non-military government employees.

Seems like these two have a large amount of overlap. The testing thing is also sometimes a feature, but it's a historical footnote for the US. The distinction between the two groups is not clear at all. Can the first group also include military hired based on qualifications? Does the first group exclude those who haven't been tested? SDY (talk) 22:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Established Civil Servant
The term Established Civil Servant is used to limit who can sign passports in the UK and possibly other countries. Goggle sent me to this page. Can anyone define what is an Established Civil Servant. (The EU page if found attempts but does not do the job.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.129.8 (talk) 18:22, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Ireland seems to define established as pensionable. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1956/en/act/pub/0046/sec0001.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.129.8 (talk) 18:26, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Redirect to Public Servant
The term civil service has two distinct meanings:

* A branch of governmental service in which individuals are employed on the basis of professional merit as proven by competitive examinations. * The body of employees in any government agency other than the military.

Therefore there should be a separate article for public servant.

A public servant is a person in the public sector employed for a government department or agency. The term explicitly excludes the armed services, although civilian officials will work at "Defence Ministry" headquarters. The term always includes the (sovereign) state's employees; whether regional, or sub-state, or even municipal employees are called "civil servants" varies from country to country. In the United Kingdom, for instance, only Crown employees are referred to as civil servants, county or city employees are not.

Some civilian officials are not civilians when they are paid by corrupt governments to attack real civilians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.58.201.179 (talk) 16:37, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

china
The section on China is all about the history, but nothing about what defines a civil servant *today* (in the PRC). I have been trying to determine get an idea what the difference is, but the article is useless for this purpose. I hope someone can add something to give more current information.

Davidmaxwaterman (talk) 15:11, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

 * There's an article called "Civil Service of the People's Republic of China" that explains the modern day civil service just as you were looking for. 2A06:A004:5051:0:0:0:0:2 (talk) 06:00, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Germany
Hey guys, I am German reaerch assosiate in law and was merely looking up something on the English wikipedia. I've noticed, under the situation in Germany, it is stated that " Judges and public attorneys are all Beamte". That however is not entirely true. There are three branches of "Beamten-like" civil servants in Germany: Beamte, Judges (Richter) and Soldiers (Soldaten). Even though, even in Germany lay people tend to say all three branches are Beamte, their legal positions differ widley as those regulated by differnt laws of the states and the federation. I.e., Bundesbeamtengesetz for Beamte, Deutsches Richtergesetz for Judges and Soldatengesetz for Soldiers. Msybe you want to change that. Greentings from Germany! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.187.117.43 (talk) 13:25, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Roman Empire
I think it would be beneficial to add a subsection in the history section about the Roman empire civil service related to the growth of it. NinjaAccountant (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

bureaucrats
This word is inappropriate because of its ironic, pejorative meaning. I take the article as trying to describe the work of government officials without implying criticism or imputing motives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.195.232.78 (talk) 14:45, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Brazil
The article's introduction, after describing the concept development in China and the UK, states that towards the end of the 19th century most nations had tests or exams to enter the civil service. I got curious and learned on an academic paper that Brazil took some more time to adopt this model, so I inserted some historic perspective on Brazil's section. The rest of it, while not wrong, is badly phrased, and perhaps I may take some time to work on it. Iporã (talk) 21:10, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Why does an article nominally about a service immediately become one about Civil Servants?
Serious work needed! The article as it stands fails to deliver on the most basic test: to do what it says on the tin. If, after telling us about civil servants, it described their function, it might be of some use. But it doesn't even do that.

Can anyone at least prefix the first para of the lead with some relevant text and add associated body content, please? Possibly compare and contrast with Executive (government). 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 14:06, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Civil service