text:
Talk:Jim Davidson

Way too much POV
This page and this discussion page clearly indicate a level of subjective and emotional carry on that is neither here nor there. Why not just cite his carer and use references to back it up. There is nothing about the TV series Up the Elephant and Round The Castle or Home James. If you like the guy, if he appeals to you or not, shouldn’t be the point, that is POV and the idea of wikipedia is to provide some relative balance thus displaying an encyclopaedia style not a FOX News version of the I hate Jim London cause he is an . Personally, I don’t find the guy that funny myself, but the way that the ‘I hate Jim’ campaigners carry on is pathetic – you are not even pretending to be reasonably self-removed regarding POV.

 * Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, once the PC Police (the guardians of our morals) are out in force you can expect trouble! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.122.137.16 (talk) 05:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism
I must say that the vandalism on this page is hilarious! --Differentgravy 10:55, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I totally agree, although if the abuse of this  is to continue then we should take the route of more constructive criticism so as to not give anyone cause to delete it. -- GyroscopicPatio —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.153.100.175 (talk • contribs) 2005-08-29 22:17:20 UTC.
 * It most certainly is. But then again that's because so many people can't stand this guy. A mention of that should be made on the page, ok  is putting it bluntly, but "despite his success a large number of the public dislike him strongly, more so than most celebrities" is fine. 195.93.21.97 03:57, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but Wikipedia's meant to be an encyclopedia, right? Encyclopedias present the facts. And the fact is,  Jim's Mum 02:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.218.55.27 (talk • contribs) 2005-08-30 02:50:49 UTC.
 * You have the right idea. 61.218.55.27 does not.  (61.218.55.27 is not even correctly distinguishing fact from opinion.)  If, starting from that wording as a beginning, you can work up a neutral and, moreover, verifiable wording here on the talk page and garner a consensus, it can be added to the article.  Citing sources is especially important here. All opinions must be properly attributed to the people who hold them. Weasel terms like "a large number of the public" should be avoided.  I've provided a place for you to start. Uncle G 10:14:05, 2005-08-30 (UTC)
 * Methinks Uncle G missed the joke. --Ousted1 07:09, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
 * me thinks Uncle G is Jim Davidson

''jim davidson is my dad. So the git who called him a  can keep his opinions to himself, at the very least be polite.''

 * What? Polite like your dad is?

 * As long as you're nothing like your dad that's OK. I can tolerate being a , but appearing on a snooker related psuedo comedy I will not.

This is supposed to be an article in an encyclopaedia and language like that should have no place in wikipedia. Whether or not one considers him to be a  is irrelevent. Is is he any more of  than bernard manning, ron atkinson or adolf hitler. He does do al ot for charity. Franz-kafka 17:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC) Stalin did a lot for charity and he was a  too.And Jeffrey Archer.

 * I've just removed a picture of a muslim woman purporting to be Davidson as "Buttons." Are you feckin blind? I don't find his humour particuliarly funny, there are hundreds of idiots like him in every pub In Liverpool and London. But whatever any of us thinks of him, vandalism to Any Wikipedia Article is Not Funny. It should be dealt with swiftly! Vera, Chuck & Dave 16:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Vera you are such a hypocrite! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.39.59 (talk) 16:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Withdraw that remark forthwith. Vera, Chuck & Dave (talk) 17:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Wording
Jim Davidson has been the subject of media coverage, especially in British tabloid newspapers. The Shropshire Star reports1 that much of it has focussed upon his divorce payments, income tax bills, and court orders for cancelled shows, with a tendency to concentrate upon where his comedy is ill-received rather than where it is well-received. It cites as an example an incident where he once refused to go on stage in Plymouth because all of the disabled guests had been put in the front row, quoting his as saying that "I've got nothing against disabled people but part of my act is taking the piss out of the front row. Just imagine if I had have ripped it out of them? The papers would have had a field day. Instead I asked them to move but they wouldn't budge."

Discussion
Except that that a) is obviously biased toward his side, and b) completely ignores the whole "he's a " thing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.218.55.27 (talk • contribs) 06:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC).
 * There may be some validity to the above anon's point a (point b is obviously little more than POV.) Considering the example given about the disabled audience members, without knowing the theatre in question, I obviously can't say for sure, but there may have been an entirely valid reason why "they wouldn't budge", for example, maybe the only wheelchair-accessable area in the auditorium was in the front row, and there was nowhere else for them to watch his show from.  More generally, what the Shropshire Star article is commenting on is nothing specific to Jim Davidson, it is simply a comment on the nature of the tabloid media, in that they will jump on anthing that looks remotely like a "celebrity scandal", because that sells papers.  I'm not sure how relevent it is to this particular article. AJR 23:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, that last part was me using a bit too much hyperbole. My point was that it totally glosses over the (well-founded, IMO) accusations of racism. Plus the whole paragraph is clearly slanted in Dim's favor.--203.73.105.51 16:24, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Jim Davidson is the ultimate celebrity scandal. It's a scandal he ever made it. Freddie Starr is a million times better, and he's a non-talent. You can't find many better examples of a non-talent, except of course, Jim Davidson!

 * Freddie Starr is a non-talent? He's a hasbeen, I agree, but he's never been talentless...Unlike Jim Davidson, Starr knows when to quit while he's ahead :-) SmUX 20:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Colour Me Kubrick
Colour Me Kubrick is for 2006 scheduled. --ThomasK 14:38, September 1, 2005 (UTC) I will tell you what he does for charity.Some years ago he was booked well in advance to be the main item at Wakefield hospice gala dinner .For this he charged 17k, no discount.At four on the Afternoon of the dinner he pulled out citing illness,however it was reported in the tabloids that on the evening he should have performed he was at Kenny Jones polo club ,  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.253.125 (talk) 20:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

If you dislike him then fine, but to constantly post hateful remarks about him, just highlights your OWN prejudice against someone and makes you no better than the person you are attacking.
 * It appears that there are a lot of people that dislike him for his act and his treatment of women. As I understand it, he has had treatment for his drinking and anger management, as part of his treatment in anger management, it would be required of him to openly admit to his violence against women, which he did. It also takes more courage for a man to openly admit he has hit women, than it did to actually hit them.

For the record: "He has made five visits to the Falkland Islands, twice to the Republic of Macedonia, and at least six times to Iraq." Add "at least once in Belize 1980" (I was in the forces when he put on the shows for us in Belieze). Edit: "His (should be "He") is presently the Chairman of The British Forces Foundation charity" (and has been for over 20 years). Samantha.pia (talk) 13:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Unprotecting
Protecting a page like this for weeks and weeks is pretty sad. Unprotected. --Tony Sidaway Talk 20:15, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Dear vandals
We tried to reflect your point of view with the "controversy" section, but we can't just go right out and say , so if you mess around with it we either waste our time putting it back or it gets protected and no-one else can edit it. How about you give us a break? Kappa

 * Jim is a legend, you people should get a sense of humour. This whole article is a joke, which simply reflects on a few people that don't like his jokes. We've got stupid things like "etc", which don't belong in an encylopedia. Instead we've got an article on a small group of people who continually complain about him, with hardly anything on his work....especially television work. His whole act isn't standup. Sort it out, come on. Blightsoot 10:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

He's a legend all right - he's legendary for being a .

-ps this article basically has given into the vandals, they should be get banned, not catered for. (I also should use that remember me tag on login a bit more often)

Have any of you actually seen his act?
I recently have, and was pleasantly surprised ( I expected to hate it) to find Davidson has now tailored his act to a more contemporary format; gone are the 'Chalkie' characterisations and in its place is a more self-deprecating US-style of comedy story-telling more in tune with what audiences expect these days- the only person Davidson takes the mickey out of these days is himself...and very funny he is too....you may not belive it, but its true! Harryurz 22:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)]]

 * What are you? his PR agent? Jim Davidson is British comedy at it's worst. The only time he comes close to being funny is when he's ripping of Bob Monkhouse gags and even then, he can't do them justice! User:192.135.227.226

 * Nope, not his PR, just someone who has seen his stage act ( unlike I suspect yourself) He doesn't tell 'jokes a la Monkhouse anymore, as I remarked above. Could you also please sign your contributions as a matter of courtesy please. Thanks Harryurz 15:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I have seen his act. It is complete dross. Yes, he STILL does do the Monkhouse gags, deny it if you want but we all know it's true. User:152.163.101.8

mm, so when it suits the  he uses the black man's jokes? How convenient.

Headline text
In light of the large amount of debate here about Jim, I added the text to the header which reflects both the popular comic, the turbulent personal life, and his dedicated charity works. However, I note anonymous user 62.6.139.11 revereted to the original header, which the RevertBot Tawkerbot2 changed back. I hope we can reach an agreement on what should be written, particularly as I note the later pieces collaborating these points in teh article have not been editted - so it seems just a headline issue. I will happily state I have seen Jim in performance live, and on TV - which is really like watching two different but both very funny people, and hence why I understand the varying comments. But as an encyclopedia, we have to try to reach a balanced NPOV. Rgds, - Trident13 13:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Just as an FYI - User:62.6.139.11 is an annoymous NHS account. Rgds, - Trident13 15:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Isn't funny a matter of opinion too?

Neutrality
I really cannot stand the man and would love to rant on about how revolting he is, but I can't help but think this article is hugely biased. Someone needs to clean up the section regarding his ex wife. Yes, he MAY be fickle or horrible, but it is a point of view and does not belong uncited in this article. Adamshappy 12:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

William Hague
I removed "William Hague is a close friend" from the trivia section. The statement is not cited, and I find the idea highly unlikely. If someone can provide a citation, then feel free to add it back. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 01:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Err it says here that he was "warm-up act for Mr Hague" so unlikely it was not and probably should not have been removed either. Thanks, SqueakBox 02:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Craig Charles story
I cannot find any evidence of this story happening. Would someone please add a source if it is true? Ggareth77 18:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Things tend to work the other way round when we're dealing with living people. Things like that should be deleted unless they have a source, see the Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy. For that reason, I have deleted the text in question. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 18:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

My name's Craig... Not sure about that particular story, but I can confirm he's a

Forget neutrality, let's consider realism for a second
Isn't wikipedia supposed to be an accurate representation? Therefore the point of view that Davidson is the biggest  in the world (and I should know, because I deliver the children of elephants), taken by the many, should be encouraged. Why not say that Bernard Manning is misrepesented by the PC lodge? Did Hitler have a valid point? Was the Yorkshire ripper a misunderstood prankster? Should we try to understand Falwell? No, we shouldn't, and pussyfooting (something Davidson does a lot by all accounts) around the issue will not help. Or we could of course hush these sort of points of view up and have a purely unemotional, factional (yawn) online page.

Moron! --86.153.2.145 20:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Refs
What's going on with the references ?

Half of them are of the format " # ^ missingauthor (missingdate). missingtitle. missingpublisher."

Vandalism 2
I've reverted a bunch of edits back to before a bunch of categories were added as vandalism. If I reverted a real edit, please forgive me. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 07:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

What does this mean?
Comedian and writer John Junkin wrote most of his early TV scripts, as did scriptwriter Terry Ravenscroft.[23]

Surely this could be written better...

It's not very clear.

86.140.159.159 23:49, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Malicious libel
This fraudulent edit should not have been allowed to stand for any length of time, let alone remain in the article for several weeks to propagate over the internet. It should be removed.
 * I've reverted the change to the quote. The inaccurate death report has already been removed. --- RockMFR 17:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Request for administrator to make an edit
Hello. I've made a number of constructive and factual contributions to this listing over the years, and I am pleased to say that they have stood the test of time, both in terms of sourcing, and in terms of having remained relatively unedited. I understand that the vandals to this page have rendered it necessary to protect the current version, but it now means that I can not add the following text. If any administrator would like to do the good job for me, I would be very grateful. At the end of the "Controversy" section, please add:

Source:http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_headline=jim-s-too-frisky&method=full&objectid=19572640&siteid=93463-name_page.html

Obviously, the formating will need tweaking to match Wikipedia's rules. Thanks again for help on this. jasonpaultrue
 * Edit not done. Please gain consensus for this edit first, or wait until your account is four days old. The source this information comes from does not seem reliable. --- RockMFR 17:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The source of this information is The People newspaper. The People newspaper is a registered UK weekly with a circulation of 1 million, and as such is bound by the Press Complaints Commision Code of Conduct ( http://www.pcc.org.uk/cop/practice.html ). This specifically prohibits defamatory and inaccurate articles. Obviously, this is not to say that the UK press always plays by the rules. But if there were any factual inaccuracies in the above source, Mr. Davidson would be at liberty to pursue his complaint via the PCC, and information on how to do this is available at: http://www.pcc.org.uk/faqs/index.html  To date, he has chosen not to use this route, and in absence of any evidence to the contrary or any complaint with the PCC by the effected plaintif, it is reasonable to state that the allegations have been made by the paper (not that the allegations are necessarily undisputed by the parties involved). After all, there are numerous articles on Wikipedia that are based on much more flaky sources, that do not have an official form of redress. jasonpaultrue —The preceding  signed but undated.

 * It's a trash tabloid, and not in any way a reliable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.31.166.240 (talk) 10:19, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Honours
When and why did he get his OBE? Opera hat 17:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * He got it for his charity work. It was in the article and sourced correctly a while ago, yet vandals seem to have removed it from under my nose.  Agent Blightsoot 22:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Name
He should be listed as Cameron Davidson known as Jim Davidson; Jim or James was not his first name at birth. His actual christian name is Cameron. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.40.72 (talk) 07:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC) Comment moved to bottom of list by me on 3rd October. (Still latest post at that date) Britmax 21:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Having moved the above comment so more people can see it I would point out that the name used for a person on Wikipedia tends to be the one by which they are most commonly known, which in this case would be Jim Davidson. Britmax 21:40, 3 October 2007 (UTC).

The ludicrous semi-protection of this article
I think it's about time this was unprotected, don't you? I'm sure the vandals have had their fun by now. 82.31.6.28 19:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Not dead
Can editors stop reverting the changes made by an anonymous user who is removing unsourced and hoaxed material? Jim Davidson is not dead, as a quick google search would indicate. - Fritzpoll (talk) 13:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Correct term?
In the part of the article about the heckler

"In December 2006, Davidson was embarrassed by a 15-year-old boy who heckled him during a performance of his pantomime Dick Whittington in Kent. Reportedly, Davidson came on stage at the Orchard Theatre in Dartford, delivering the scripted line, "Do you know who I am?” The boy, a Scout in full uniform, loudly replied, "Yes, you're a fucking wanker.". According to The Sun, Davidson was enraged and spent the remainder of the first half of the show in a sullen mood. He reportedly tried unsuccessfully to find the boy's scoutmaster during the interval to personally address his heckler."

I appreciate the term Scoutmaster was probably used by the original source, but the term is around 40 years old - should the more modern Scout Leader be used instead? 86.130.133.64 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 12:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

 * The source (at ), does not mention Davidson searching for a Scoutmaster or a Scout leader. I would add that the Sun is hardly a reliable source for anything (except racing form). DuncanHill (talk) 14:51, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I have accordingly removed material unsupported by the reference, and replaced the url in the reference with one that works. DuncanHill (talk) 14:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Redactions
WP:BLP applies to talk pages as well as articles. Accordingly I have removed all unsourced contentious statements from the talk page and replaced them with "<redacted due to WP:BLP concerns>". Exxolon (talk) 00:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

So we can't even call Jimbo a on the talk pages any more? It's PC gone mad. I'm sure Jim Davidson would be the first to admit what a complere and utter he is.
 * No, you can't. Please stop doing so. We're here to put together an accurate and neutral article on him, not to personally abuse him. Exxolon (talk) 01:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

 * So, just because you can't legally prove that this   celebrity is really and truly a  , you've taken it upon yourself to place "<redacted...>" throughout a discussion? What nonsense!  This censorship truly is political correctness gone mentally-challenged.  Talk pages are by definition opinions rather than facts.  I'm guessing that these people were accusing him of being a racist; given his cited controversy for racial jokes it's a reasonable thing to debate on a talk page.  Mrstonky (talk) 13:10, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Cameron or James first?
Another editor keeps changing the name from Cameron James to James Cameron. I am fairly sure that the first of these is correct but a lot of the Google entries I find giving his name either way are mirror wikipedia sites. Anyone really know? Britmax (talk) 08:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Why can't we called Jim rac*st?
Can someone explain to me in simple words why we cant call his horrible excuse for a human existence Racist ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.149.19.249 (talk) 00:23, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Because it's an opinion, not a fact. You'd also have to be sure that it's part of him and not part of a stage persona. Britmax (talk) 11:59, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

2603:8001:B840:8B82:8D98:44E2:B598:802F (talk) 08:45, 30 December 2022 (UTC)Because calling him a racist is a political attack designed to transfer power to yourself. Its cynical and destructive to society. You're a bad person for doing it because you're a race baiter. Race baiting is a hundred times worse that racism.

Valid comment on amount of negative website material on Davidson
BRITMAX :

How am I supposed to reference websites & pages that refer to Davidson as a ***t? Don't be daft.

It's quite simple: if you can't find a reference it can't go into the article. Britmax (talk) 17:33, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

"Burt Kearns claimed that he had plotted" in place of "Burt Kearns had plotted"
I've put in "Burt Kearns claimed that he had plotted" in place of "Burt Kearns had plotted". This is a temporary fix to tone the thing down. But I suspect the entire statement should be removed (probably under either WP:RS or WP:EXTRAORDINARY or both, and perhaps also WP:BLP) as based on a source or sources of questionable reliability, but I would prefer that decision to be taken by somebody with a better understanding of the relevant Wikipedia rules than I have. Tlhslobus (talk) 10:41, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

After further thought, on the theory that under WP:BLP the philosophy is basically 'when in doubt, take it out', I've removed the entire sentence under WP:BLP, as based on a seemingly unreliable source, and one which contains further seemingly unsubstantiated and potentially damaging allegations. If it turns out that I've made a mistake, somebody else can easily revert me. Tlhslobus (talk) 11:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. We have consensus the comedian is the primary topic. Cúchullain t/ c 14:02, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

– The other Jim Davidsons are hardly notable at all compared to this one. Unreal7 (talk) 23:52, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Jim Davidson (comedian) → Jim Davidson
 * Jim Davidson → Jim Davidson (disambiguation)

 * Oppose – WP:Notability is not a comparative attribute. No rationale has been presented for why this guy should be selected as primarytopic for this ambiguous name. Dicklyon (talk) 03:04, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose – I just don't see any advantage to this proposed change. Britmax (talk) 12:40, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment Surely there's a better disambig begining with "c", as he's not a comedian...?  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 13:22, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

 * Support While I actually dislike him myself, I am reluctantly forced to conclude that he is the primary meaning, he is a very well known performer in Britain, the others may not be far above the threshold of notability.  Britmax's comment strikes me as the sort of vague statement we should avoid in these discussions, see WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. PatGallacher (talk) 02:35, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Support Agree with the above - the other entries in the disambiguation list are much less well-known.  86.156.79.210 (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Support This article has had 29k views in the last 30 days, the other three have less than 800 combined over the same period. Clear primary topic benmoore 23:37, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. He appears to have considerably more notability in both usage and long term significance than the other Jim Davidsons. — Amakuru (talk) 21:35, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Controversies
Should the paragraph regarding Charles Bruce's suicide be moved from Controversies to Personal life? I can't see any controversy regarding Jim in it. - Dave Crosby (talk) 12:43, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I've removed it altogether - it's certainly not a 'Controversy', where it was listed. It could be considered part of Davidson's Personal Life, and I wouldn't revert if someone re-added it to that section, but I'm not sure if it's really a significant enough part of his life to be listed here at all. Robofish (talk) 23:48, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

How did this article contain a blatant WP:BLP violation for over five years?
I just removed from this article Category:English people convicted of assault, as a violation of BLP policy - an unsourced negative allegation about a living person. I've looked through the history of the article, and it's rather disturbing to see that the article was in that category (or similar ones) since it was added in November 2008. The article formerly contained text describing a purported assault by Davidson, which was removed as unsourced in February 2009; unfortunately, the editor who removed it didn't remove the category as well. Going back to when these allegations were added to the article in June 2008, it becomes apparent that they have never been sourced.

Frankly, this is pretty shameful for Wikipedia. Unsourced allegations of criminal behaviour about living people should be removed on sight. They should definitely not be allowed to remain on the page for over five years! Robofish (talk) 00:11, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

 * Articles about controversial people should be monitored frequently, as unsourced/false info is likely to be put in them. It's clear that no-one questioned the unsourced paragraph for months, and that the cat was added by someone else months after then. Jim Michael (talk) 13:45, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Photo
Just uploaded a recent pic of the subject - would anyone like to add it to the Infobox?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Transangst (talk • contribs) 10:36, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

alleged comedian
Can we change comedian to 'alleged' comedian please? Can you find reliable sources to prove that he is infact a comedian ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.153.254.51 (talk) 20:19, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Jim Davidson was a comedian (perhaps he still is - I've not followed his career). In fact, I think this needs to be addressed in a new section, which I will now write. --98.122.20.56 (talk) 19:10, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Scare quotes in lede
Jim Davidson was a comedian. He may still be a comedian - I have no idea, as I don't follow his career. Personally, I reject his comedy (of old) as mostly offensive - particularly in today's more enlightened society. However, Davidson was a comedian - and a successful one at that. That isn't a reflection of anything other that societal norms at the time and, unfortunately, we accepted as normal jokes that are deemed as unsavoury today.

That doesn't make him any less a comedian in his past career. The fact is that I personally find many comedians either distasteful or unfunny. But that doesn't mean they are not comedians. I believe I remember Davidson no the show 'New Faces', in which he was quite successful as a comedian. He also won, according to this article, the TV Times award for 'Funniest Man On Television'. The country has moved on, leaving the offensive jokes of the likes of Davidson and Bernard Manning behind. The jokes they made were jokes. They made people laugh, back in the day. As a child, I'm pretty sure I probably laughed at Davidson's 'Chalky' persona, and his "Nick, Nick" policeman character. Surely I was ignorant though, as a child, I was innocent. I have obviously changed, as I hope Davidson has.

An offensive joke, is still a joke. An offensive comedian is still a comedian. The apparently evil Jimmy Savile was an athlete, entertainer, TV presenter and charity fundraiser. He didn't cease to be those things when it was discovered that he had indulged in disgusting and perverted acts and abuses.

The format of blogs and magazine articles is to use 'scare quotes' as emphasis, in order to evoke emotion about a particular facet. This is not, however, a blog nor a magazine article. The fact is that Davidson had a successful career as a comedian. The fact is that many people found his jokes and caricatures funny, back in the day. We can certainly have remorse for our ignorance, but we cannot avoid the fact that Davidson was indeed a comedian, whether his jokes caused offence or not. Nor should this encyclopaedic article ignore or gloss over this fact. The record should show and reflect that this is the way things had been, and not make judgements based on our (hopefully) better and higher standards today.

Davidson was encouraged by his fans. Whilst that isn't an excuse which let's the man off the hook for his attitude, it is a (unfortunately sad) reflection of how society used to be. This article, as I think somebody else had said above, should not be involved in making value judgements. It should stick to the facts, and the fact is that Davidson was a comic.

I do not know if someone has put the quotes around the word 'comedian' as an act of vandalism, but I am going to revert or remove the quotes. This shouldn't be a controversial edit, as the article itself makes it clear how offensive his jokes were, and the controversy that resulted as his career continued. --98.122.20.56 (talk) 19:42, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Jim Davidson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071114173724/http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/04/24/dp2401.xml to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/04/24/dp2401.xml#4

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II <sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS"> Talk to my owner :Online 10:22, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Jim Davidson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20071114224950/http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk:80/download.asp?docid=486719 to http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/download.asp?docid=486719
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20090207101337/http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk:80/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=133942&command=displayContent&sourceNode=244910&contentPK=19147348&folderPk=103546&pNodeId=244911 to http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=133942&command=displayContent&sourceNode=244910&contentPK=19147348&folderPk=103546&pNodeId=244911

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—<sup style="color:green;font-family:Courier">cyberbot II <sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS"> Talk to my owner :Online 05:43, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 one external links on Jim Davidson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051128045008/http://www.shropshirestar.com:80/show_article.php?aID=36439 to http://www.shropshirestar.com/show_article.php?aID=36439
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927200603/http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentRealityTVEatsItself.html to http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentRealityTVEatsItself.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 04:53, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Jim Davidson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130821041913/http://www.ugle.org.uk/what-is-freemasonry/famous-masons to http://www.ugle.org.uk/what-is-freemasonry/famous-masons

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 12:10, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Jim Davidson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140222200335/http://jimdavidson.proboards104.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1170591566&page=1 to http://jimdavidson.proboards104.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1170591566&page=1
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928210227/http://www.briandowling.biz/newsfeed/show_news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1188955963&archive=&template=HomepageHK to http://www.briandowling.biz/newsfeed/show_news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1188955963&archive=&template=HomepageHK

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 11:18, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Possible additions
Would it be considered NPOV to mention Davidson's obsessive dislike of Lenny Henry, often aired on his YouTube uploads, and that his Ustreme service once featured interviews and regular appearances by the subsequently disgraced and currently imprisoned troll Alex Belfield, in this article? Dolmance (talk) 05:41, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jim Davidson


text:
Ngong Hills

The Ngong Hills are peaks in a ridge along the Great Rift Valley, located southwest near Nairobi, in southern Kenya. The word "Ngong" is an Anglicization of a Maasai phrase "enkong'u emuny" meaning rhinoceros spring, and this name derives from a spring located near Ngong Town.

The Ngong Hills, from the eastside slopes, overlook the Nairobi National Park and, off to the north, the city of Nairobi. The Ngong Hills, from the westside slopes, overlook the Great Rift Valley dropping over 1000 m below, where Maasai villages have been developed. The peak of the Ngong Hills is at 2460 m above sea level.

During the years of British colonial rule, the area around the Ngong Hills was a major settler farming region, and many traditional colonial houses are still seen in the area. In the 1985 film Out of Africa, the four peaks of the Ngong Hills appear in the background of several scenes near Karen Blixen's house. Local residents still reported seeing lions in the Hills during the 1990s. The solitary grave of Denys Finch Hatton, marked by an obelisk and garden, is located on the eastern slopes of the Ngong Hills, overlooking the Nairobi National Park.

There is a walking trail along the tops of the Ngong Hills. Kenya Forestry Service has a small post at the NE foot of the park. There is a KSH 600 fee for visitors. Local residents have sometimes held Sunday church services on the southern peak, overlooking the Great Rift Valley.

Near the hills is the town of Ngong. The Ngong Hills Wind Power Station was completed in 2015. This is the first wind farm in the country. Kenya Forestry Service offers guides/security to accompany hikers for an extra fee (KES 2000).

Ngong Hills Mbagathi Water Resource Users Association / Ngong Hills Mbagathi WRUA has been very aggressive in making the Ngong area Water Catchment area better by planting indigenous seedlings and town cleaning activities. If the world agree to plant trees and take care of our environment we shall reverse climate change. Ngong Water catchment area covers Thogoto, Kibiko, Oloolua and Ngong Hills Forest Reserve; and also Nairobi National Park. This is a very crutial water catchment for the people living downstream in Ukambani and coast region.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Ngong Hills


text: User talk:80.131.228.78

title: User talk:80.131.228.78


text:
Hawkshead

Hawkshead is a village and civil parish in Westmorland and Furness, Cumbria, England. It lies within the Lake District National Park and was historically part of Lancashire. The parish includes the hamlets of Hawkshead Hill, 1.2 mi to the north west, and Outgate, a similar distance north. Hawkshead contains one primary school and four public houses.

Geography
Hawkshead is just north of Esthwaite Water, in a valley to the west of Windermere and east of Coniston Water. It is part of Furness, making it a part of the ancient county of Lancashire.

History
The township of Hawkshead was originally owned by the monks of Furness Abbey; nearby Colthouse derives its name from the stables owned by the Abbey. Hawkshead grew to be an important wool market in medieval times and later as a market town after the Dissolution of the Monasteries in 1532. It was granted its first market charter by King James I in 1608. In 1585, Hawkshead Grammar School was established by Archbishop Edwin Sandys of York after he successfully petitioned Queen Elizabeth I for a charter to establish a governing body.

In the 18th and 19th centuries, Hawkshead became a village of local importance. Hawkshead Market Hall was completed in 1790.

William Wordsworth (afterwards poet laureate) was educated at Hawkshead Grammar School, whilst Beatrix Potter lived nearby as did William Heelis, a local solicitor, in the early 20th century.

With the formation of the Lake District National Park in 1951, tourism grew in importance, though traditional farming still goes on around the village. Hawkshead has a timeless atmosphere and consists of a characterful warren of alleys, overhanging gables and a series of mediaeval squares. It is eloquently described in William Wordsworth's poem The Prelude.

Much of the land in and around the village is now owned by the National Trust. The National Trust property is called Hawkshead and Claife.

Governance
There are two tiers of local government covering Hawkshead, at parish and unitary authority level: Hawkshead Parish Council and Westmorland and Furness Council. The parish council meets at Hawkshead Market Hall. For elections to Westmorland and Furness Council, Hawkshead is part of the electoral ward of Coniston and Hawkshead.

Administrative history
Hawkshead was historically a chapelry within the ancient parish of Dalton-in-Furness in Lancashire. Hawkshead became a separate parish in 1578. The parish of Hawkshead then contained four townships, being Claife, Colton, Satterthwaite and a township called 'Hawkshead and Monk Coniston with Skelwith' covering the north-western part of the parish, including the village. Colton was made a separate parish in 1676; the other three townships were all also made civil parishes in 1866.

When elected parish and district councils were established in 1894, it was decided to split up the civil parish of Hawkshead and Monk Coniston with Skelwith. The Monk Coniston area was added to the parish of Coniston, and the rest was split between new civil parishes called Skelwith and Hawkshead. Hawkshead was included in the Ulverston Rural District, which renamed itself North Lonsdale Rural District in 1960. Hawkshead was transferred to the new county of Cumbria in 1974, forming part of the South Lakeland district. In 2023 it became part of the unitary authority of Westmorland and Furness.

Parliamentary representation
Hawkshead is part of the Westmorland and Lonsdale parliamentary constituency and is represented in parliament by Tim Farron MP.

title: Hawkshead


text:
World of Morrissey

World of Morrissey is a compilation album released in 1995 by Morrissey. It was one of three Morrissey releases EMI deleted from its catalogue on 14 December 2010 along with Beethoven Was Deaf & Suedehead: The Best of Morrissey. The album's cover art features boxer Cornelius Carr.

Track listing

 * 1) "Whatever Happens, I Love You" – 3:07 [B-side of "Boxers"]
 * 2) "Billy Budd" – 2:09 [from Vauxhall and I]
 * 3) "Jack the Ripper" [live in Paris, 22 December 1992] – 4:10 [from Beethoven Was Deaf]
 * 4) "Have-a-Go Merchant" – 2:41 [B-side of "Boxers"]
 * 5) "The Loop" – 4:16 [B-side of "Sing Your Life"]
 * 6) "Sister I'm a Poet" [live in Paris, 22 December 1992] – 2:15 [from "Beethoven Was Deaf"]
 * 7) "You're the One for Me, Fatty" [live in Paris, 22 December 1992] – 3:00 [from Beethoven Was Deaf]
 * 8) "Boxers" – 3:28 [single A-side]
 * 9) "Moon River" – 9:39 [B-side of "Hold on to Your Friends"]
 * 10) "My Love Life" [UK version] – 4:24 [single A-side]
 * 11) "Certain People I Know" – 3:10 [from Your Arsenal]
 * 12) "The Last of the Famous International Playboys" – 3:36 [single A-side]
 * 13) "We'll Let You Know" – 5:16 [from Your Arsenal]
 * 14) "Spring-Heeled Jim" – 3:45 [from Vauxhall and I]

title: World of Morrissey


text:
Peruzzi

The Peruzzi family were bankers of Florence, among the leading families of the city in the 14th century, before the rise to prominence of the Medici. Their modest antecedents stretched back to the mid 11th century, according to the family's genealogist Luigi Passerini, but a restructuring of the Peruzzi company in 1300, with an infusion of outside capital, marked the start of a quarter-century of prosperity that brought the family consortium to the forefront of Florentine affairs.

Patronage
Semi-public patronage reaffirmed the Peruzzi status in Florence: in his will in 1299, Donato di Arnoldo Peruzzi left money for a memorial chapel in a transept of the Basilica of Santa Croce, Florence. It was probably his grandson Giovanni di Rinieri Peruzzi who was Giotto's patron in frescoing the walls with murals honoring John the Evangelist and John the Baptist, which Giotto executed, starting in 1313.

For economic historians, the surviving account books of the Peruzzi from the years 1335–1343 provide an indispensable primary source for the economic history of the city on the cusp of the late Medieval and Early Modern period. The contemporary chronicler Giovanni Villani is the other prime source for the family's affairs.

Company
The company that bore the Peruzzi name was run by a half-dozen family members, and there were many Peruzzi who were neither active nor silent partners, pursuing other careers, even amassing independent capital. The company's courier system acted as an intelligence-gathering system often embroiled in diplomacy. The size of the bank should not be understated: by the 1330s, the Peruzzi bank was the second largest in Europe, with fifteen branches from the Middle East to London, all capitalized to the sum of more than 100,000 gold florins and manned by approximately 100 factors.

Peruzzi capital had been amassed in the textile business that was the main engine of Florence's prosperity. English wool finished as high-quality cloth in Bruges was bought by Peruzzi fattori and distributed to the luxurious courts of Paris, Avignon or returned to London. Peruzzi connections with the Knights Hospitallers gained them important local leverage in Rhodes, the economic capital of the Aegean and a transshipping port for silks, drugs, spices and luxuries from the East. Trade beyond Italy required agents and instruments of credit, extending the family business beyond its extended membership into an international network. In Italy the double-entry bookkeeping was developed that made such complicated financial transactions possible. By the opening of the 14th century, the main activity of the Peruzzi had switched to wholesale commodities trading on a very large scale, especially in grain exported from France to the central Italian cities—for which they were granted a monopoly— and to banking, the field for which they are remembered: popes, nobles, bourgeois, towns and abbeys drew loans from the Peruzzi. But great clients incurred great risks. In 1343 the Peruzzi consortium collapsed and was bankrupt in 1345, with their partners in risk-capital, the Bardi.

Unsecured loans
The traditional explanation, of unsecured loans extended to Edward III of England, is currently considered simplistic. In fact, several factors destabilized the network of trade. The war with Castruccio Castracani of Lucca bled Florentine specie to pay for mercenaries, while France and England went to war over Aquitaine, and the peasants of Flanders rose up in a revolt that was put down with the aid of mercenaries purchased with Peruzzi florins.

Not all of the family fortunes were lost in the bankruptcy, and the Peruzzi continued to figure among the prominent families of Florence, the patrizii di Firenze. Even as late as 1849, in the wake of the disturbances of 1848, the gonfaloniere of Florence was Ubaldino Peruzzi.

Family commune
The tower of the fortified Villa Peruzzi in the commune of Antella south of Florence controls the main road into the Chianti district.

Members of the family who emigrated to America in the late 19th century and settled in Pennsylvania founded the Peruzzi chain of automobile dealerships and the Planters Nut and Chocolate Company.

title: Peruzzi


text:
Hidcote

Hidcote may refer to:

 * Hidcote Bartrim, a village in Gloucestershire
 * Hidcote Manor Garden, a garden owned by the National Trust
 * Lavandula angustifolia 'Hidcote', a cultivar of lavender

title: Hidcote


text:
Salaca

The Salaca (Salatsi jõgi) is a river in northern Latvia. It flows from Lake Burtnieks in Vidzeme, 90 km, to the Gulf of Riga. The river flows through three towns, Mazsalaca, Staicele and Salacgrīva. The riverbanks feature Devonian red sandstone cliffs, and many caves and rapids as well.

title: Salaca


text:
Norman Price

Norman Price may refer to:

 * Norman Mills Price (1877–1951), illustrator
 * Norman Price (American football) (born 1994), American football lineman

title: Norman Price


text:
Chris Owen

Chris Owen may refer to:

 * Chris Owen (actor) (born 1980), American actor
 * Chris Owen (cricketer) (born 1963), Australian cricketer
 * Chris Owen (director) (born 1944), Australian filmmaker

title: Chris Owen


text:
Cisco Heat

Cisco Heat: All American Police Car Race (シスコ ヒート) is a 1990 racing video game developed and published in arcades by Jaleco. Players control a police squad car racing against computer-controlled vehicles. The goal is to finish each race in first place. Players can take different routes to bypass certain portions of the course. Three cabinet types were created, a standard upright, a sit-down, and a motion-based "deluxe" machine; both of these could be connected, or "linked", together to enable multiplayer.

Cisco Heat was designed by many former employees of Sega, who had left the company to form BitBox, which developed Jaleco Rally: Big Run. After Jaleco absorbed the company, the team began work on a spiritual successor to Big Run, which became Cisco Heat. The game was ported to the Atari ST, Commodore 64, Amiga, ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, and MS-DOS, all of which were published in Europe by Image Works. The arcade version of Cisco Heat was praised for its gameplay, presentation and controls, with one reviewer finding it to be a drastic improvement over Jaleco's previous arcade games. Home computer ports were met with a more negative reception for their poor quality.

Gameplay

In Cisco Heat, players control a police squad car through San Francisco in an attempt to win the "National Championship Police Car Steeplechase" in first place. Gameplay is similar to Out Run and Chase H.Q., where players must race against computer-controlled vehicles to the end of each section, taking place in a different area of San Francisco. Sections contain famous landmarks from the city, namely the Golden Gate Bridge, Alcatraz and tram cars, as well as several features such as steep dives, 90-degree turns and multiple selectable routes, which can allow players to bypass certain portions of the race and shortcut to another area. Players can select from two different police cars, both being based on the Cadillac Brougham and Nissan 300ZX Z32 respectively. Up to four Cisco Heat cabinets can be connected, or "linked", together to enable multiplayer play.

Development
Cisco Heat was developed and published by Jaleco, originally released in October 1990 in Japan. It was released in North America and Europe in November 1990. Most of the development staff who worked on the game were former members of Sega, who left the company to form the short-lived developer Bit Box, which created Jaleco Rally: Big Run (1989). After Jaleco absorbed the company in 1990, the development team became part of Jaleco and worked on a successor to Big Run, which later became Cisco Heat. For this reason, Cisco Heat bears several similarities to Big Run, and was even marketed as a conversion kit for older Big Run arcade units. In January 1991, Cisco Heat was exhibited at the Amusement Trades Exhibition International expo in the United Kingdom.

Three different cabinet types were produced for the game: standard upright, sit-down, and a "deluxe" unit with minor motion capabilities.

The soundtrack was composed by Yasuhiko Takashiba.

Ports
Home computer ports of Cisco Heat were done by UK-based developers ICE Software and Moonstone Computing. Versions for the Atari ST, Commodore 64, Amiga, MS-DOS, Amstrad CPC, and ZX Spectrum were published by Image Works. The 1992 Amiga version was programmed by Stuart Campbell.

An Atari Jaguar version of Cisco Heat was announced in 1994, but never released.

Reception
In Japan, Cisco Heat was the tenth highest-grossing dedicated arcade game of 1991. In North America, it was the top-grossing new video game on the RePlay arcade charts in January 1991.

The arcade version of Cisco Heat was met with a positive reception from critics. Sinclair User compared it to Out Run and Chase H.Q. for their similar gameplay, saying that its impressive atmosphere, fast-paced action and generally well-made presentation made Cisco Heat "one hell of a driving game". CU Amiga felt the same, and claimed that it was one of the better arcade games produced by Jaleco, and showed that they had the resources to produce a well-designed racer after Big Run. They labeled it as a "stunner" for its presentation, gameplay and fast-paced action, alongside its responsive controls and colorful visuals. The One called it "an urban Chase H.Q." for its similar gameplay and aesthetic, commending its multiplayer mode and cabinet linking system.

The home computer ports were met with a far-less positive fanfare. Reviewing the Amiga version, Amiga Action criticized the controls for being sensitive, the scrolling for being jerky, and the graphics for being poorly-made. They felt the game had a "rather amateurish" theme to it in regards to its presentation and overall quality, further criticizing it for being a generally unimpressive game. German publication Power Play had a similar response, adding that the game lacked originality compared to other similar games for the system and for its 3D effects being of poor quality. The Commodore 64 version received a record-low score of 12% by Commodore Format, who labeled it one of the worst games of 1991; they lambasted nearly every aspect of the game, greatly disliking its presentation, jerky scrolling, bad framerate and large amount of glitches, with the only positive not being directly related to the game with the reviewer Colin Campbell citing "It comes in a nice box". ZZap!64 shared many of the same criticisms, further disliking its lack of difficulty and bland music. In light of their criticism, they liked the port's short load times, which were only at the beginning of the game.

title: Cisco Heat


text:
Talk:The Bad News Bears

Title, meaning?
What's the meaning of the title "The Bad News Bears"? I know the team is called "Bears" and they are no good athletically, but where's the joke here? Why "news"? Are there any good news bears? NB, I haven't seen the film, only the TV series, and that a long time ago. Thanks in advance! --Maikel 11:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The "Bad News" in the title comes from a cheer that Walter Matthau as Buttermaker says before most games in the movies. Usually, it goes something like this:
 * Buttermaker: We're playing the Angels next and you know what that means.
 * The Team: Bad News for the Angels.
 * -- Sophitus 17:29, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Sophitus! --Maikel 16:17, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

The correct title of this movie is "The Bad News Bears." A remake of this movie was released in 2005 under the title "Bad News Bears." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.155.192.189 (talk) 03:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
The Title should include "The", as that is part of the name. Since a standard move cannot take place, I've requested that an Admin move the page to include the "The". Since the 2005 version does not have "The" we won't need a year attached to the title of each article.  BIGNOLE    (Question?)  (What I do)  00:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Page moved, per request. Cheers. -GTBacchus(talk) 17:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

"Fixed OR problem"?
I restored one of the deleted paragraphs. I think the edit, while helpful, went a little too far. Cbsite (talk) 16:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Motorcycle
Whats up with an eleven year old kid riding a motorcycle? Someone tell me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.24.88 (talk) 03:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It was the 70s. 68.126.201.0 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC).

This was a fairly subtle plot point. The implications were two: first, that this kid was a serious juvenile delinquent and would not care that riding a motorcycle was illegal for him; second, that the kid might very well have been older and lying about his age to play on the team, a subject that has scandalized more than one Little League World Series team over the years.Paul (talk) 22:47, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Lots of kids had, what were referred to as "dirt bikes." I've seen this movie plenty of times and while I can't remember the model, I'd be very surprised he was riding a "Harley." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmakovic (talk • contribs) 02:28, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Taglines
Quoting directly from WP:MOSFILM - Marketing: "If the tagline is not very famous but still considered relevant to a film's marketing, it can belong in the appropriate section of the article body." This was a cutting edge film in its day, and at least the first tag line is appropriate here. Radiopathy (talk) 01:27, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Note: in the appropriate section of the article body. "Taglines" is not a viable section, which is good because one does not currently exist in the article; instead, the taglines have simply been added to the lead, which is not the proper place for them and violates WP:LEAD.  Either way, they don't belong in the article without a reliable source as to their usage, as per film guidelines.  I believe I was correct in removing them. María ( habla  con migo ) 02:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with all of your points. I'd like to work on this, but can't get to it right away.  Please leave the tag in place and I'll fix the problems. Radiopathy (talk) 02:34, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You'll have to do a bit better than quoting directly from IMDB, which implies absolutely nothing about the tagline being "controversial". I just don't understand what's so confusing about all this. Crotchety Old Man (talk) 11:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

"Make" an out
"They play their first game and do not even make an out..."

You "make" an out when you are batting. When you're in the field, you "record" or "get" an out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.131.10.72 (talk) 19:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Reference to Paper Moon
In my opinion, the article misses a key point when it mentions a reviewer who said it's "the best adult-child comedy since Paper Moon". Tatum O'Neal starred in that movie (with her father, Ryan) and won an Academy Award for her performance, becoming (and still is) the youngest performer to win a "competitive" Oscar. 2601:1C0:5000:5D00:61CE:FB07:78E0:36B1 (talk) 00:08, 17 August 2023 (UTC)2601:1C0:5000:5D00:61CE:FB07:78E0:36B1 (talk) 2601:1C0:5000:5D00:61CE:FB07:78E0:36B1 (talk) 00:06, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Bad News Bears


text:
Talk:Johann Gottfried Herder

Untitled
I, FK, am of the school of thought which claims that digital thought costs so very little, a billionth of a dollar per word, that as an Encyclopedia, the Wikipedia has room for a full reference to all that is of educational importance. Hence the expansion towards a  more complete or thorough  relation of this figure. I take this information from the work of R.D'O. Butler's The Roots of National Socialism published in 1941 by Faber and Faber, London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Famekeeper (talk • contribs) 11:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Instuction
Are you sure the book title is "On the Spirit of Hebrew Poetry. An Instuction for Lovers of the Same and the Oldest History of the Human Spirit" with "Instuction" missing the 'r'? My guess is that he would have spelled the name of his own book correctly. Can we confirm the title is correctly misspelled on the discussion page? --darklilac 20:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Herder is not given an influenced list. I. Berlin was very influenced by Herder, as his Collected Essays show. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.189.76.18 (talk) 17:04, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Age 17 in 1752?
1752 - 1744 = 8. Which number is wrong? Kotabatubara (talk) 23:13, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Strange
I am not a Herder expert but I did compare this Article to the German version (which has a wealth of citations) and I am surprised by the striking differences, especially the overly strong (and somewhat sensational) emphasis on nationalism in the English version. Is the "spew out the ugly slime of the Seine" quote a good way to open the section on "Work and Ideas"? Wouldn't it be helpful to discuss the differences between Herder's nationalism and the nationalism of the 19th century? Also what exactly is "national pantheism"? Are those exotic descriptions appropriate for Wikipedia? Anyway, I feel that this is a poorly written Article that portrays Herder in a undeservingly negative light. It would be mildly interesting to learn where this text actually comes from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.233.154.120 (talk) 16:11, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Search
The Search function (upper right hand corner) does not find this Article if one types in Herder. Can someone please fix this? I don't know how. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.233.155.142 (talk) 16:35, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Johann Gottfried Herder


text:
Pate Island

Pate (Paté) Island is located in the Indian Ocean close to the northern coast of Kenya, to which it belongs. It is the largest island in the Lamu Archipelago, which lie between the towns of Lamu and Kiunga in the former Coast Province. The island is almost completely surrounded by mangroves.

Like much of the Swahili Coast, Pate's history was marked by a steady transition from agricultural communities in the early first millennium into a specialized, urban trading society around the 10th century, likely earlier. Islam spread down the coast from African Muslims in the Horn of Africa, helping to develop what would be known as the Swahili culture. Despite myths to the contrary, Pate was neither an Arab nor Persian colony, but an African town frequented by trading Arabs, Persians, Indians, and others. It was the centre of the Pate sultanate from the 13th–19th centuries. The Swahili port of Pate long vied with Lamu and Takwa (on Manda Island) for economic dominance of the area, and came into prominence around the 14th century. It was subjugated by Lamu, however, in the late 19th century.

Public transportation is provided by a few mini buses (known as matatus). The main administrative centre on the island, with the police station, is in Faza.

Faza
Faza town, on the North coast, known by the name of Ampaza by the Portuguese, dates back at least to the 14th century. In 1587, the Portuguese destroyed Faza, because the local Sheikh had supported Mir Ali Bey, a notorious privateer who had earlier played a key role in ousting the Portuguese from Muscat. The Portuguese arrived from Goa with some 650 men on their punitive expedition, and unleashed their fury on Faza. Everybody they could find was killed, including the local Sheikh. The Portuguese preserved his head in a barrel of salt for display in India. After four days of looting they invited Faza's arch-rivals from Pate town to take away anything that they liked from Faza.

Faza was later resettled. The Portuguese in Faza constructed a chapel there, however, nothing remains of it. In the 18th century Faza again fell into decline due to the rise of Pate. The English Consul Holmwood visited the place in 1873 and found it "dirty and infected with diseases".

Pate Town
The Pate Sultanate was a sultanate from at least the beginning of the 13th century until 1895. From 1858 on it was the domain known as Wituland. Archeological evidence suggests Pate was a prominent location in local trade networks by the 10th century.

Pate Town is situated on the south-west coast of the island. According to the Pate Chronicle, the town of Pate was founded by refugees from Oman in the 8th century. It was re-founded in 1203 by members of the Nabhani family, also from Oman. The Pate Chronicle also claims that in the 14th century, Pate was so powerful that it had conquered most of the towns on the Swahili coast. However, recent archaeological findings (by Neville Chittick and later, Mark Horton) suggest that the references in the Chronicle to Pate's early history are wrong, and that the town is younger.

The 18th century was known as the "Golden Age of Pate", when the town was at its height of powers and also prospered in fine arts. Builders constructed some of the finest houses on the Swahili coast, with extensive elaborate plaster works. Goldsmiths made intricate jewellery, fine cloths (including silks) were made by Pate's weavers, and carpenters produced fine wooden furniture. The use and production of the musical instrument known as Siwa were most famous. Two examples of Siwas are held in the museum in Lamu.

Both men and women wrote poetry in the Kiamu dialect of Swahili. The Utendi wa Tambuka, one of the earliest known documents in Swahili, was written in the royal Yunga palace in Pate Town. The downfall of Pate town came as a consequence of continuous quarrelling/warring with its neighbours from the end of the 18th century.

In 1811, two British naval officers, Smee and Hardy, visited Pate, and witnessed the infighting.

In 1813, the famous "Battle of Shela" took place at Shela. This was an attempt by Pate, allied with the Mazrui clan from Mombasa/Oman, to subject Lamu. The attempt failed totally, and many were killed. Only a handful of people managed to return to Pate, and their losses were felt for years.

Thomas Boteler, who visited Pate in 1823, described seeing the remains of a Portuguese fort, but said that the place looked otherwise poor. The poet Mwana Kupona (d. 1860) also lived at Pate Town. By 1892, the number of inhabitants had fallen to 300, down from 7,000. Today, the town has recovered some. Agriculture is the main economic activity.

Siyu
Siyu town is situated on the North coast of Pate island. As no major excavations have been done in Siyu, its age is not known, but it might date from the 13th century. Gaspar de Santo Bernadino visited the town in 1606, and stated that it was the largest town on the island.

Siyu's main claim to historical fame is that it through several battles withstood the Sultans of Zanzibar. In 1843 the Sheikh of Siyu, Bwana Machaka wa Shee, and the new Sheikh of Pate, repudiated the sovereignty of Seyyid Said, Sultan of Oman and Zanzibar. In response, Seyyid Said assembled an army consisting of 2000 people from Muscat, Baluchistan and Lamu. Leading them was his cousin, General Seyyid Hemed bin Ahmed Al-Busaidy, known as "Amir Hemed". He had previously been Governor of Bandar Abbas (in 1824). He landed at Faza in early January 1844. On 6 January they moved towards Siyu, but were ambushed and forced back to Faza. After three weeks without a victory Amir Hemed sailed off.

In 1845 Siyu gave Seyyid Said one of his greatest military defeats, in this battle the famous Amir Hemed was killed and was buried in Rasini where his grave exists to date. Seyyid Said used to pay tribute to his grave at Rasini every year. It is believed Amir Hemed was very swift with his sword to the extent of stopping all arrows and spears shot at him in battlefield. The soldiers of Siu knew about this and during this battle two archers from the Siu army shot two arrows at him in one second targeting his armpit. When Amir Hemed swiftly lifted his sword to stop the first arrow the second shot his chest from the arm pit. It was a poisoned arrow and it killed him instantly. Seyyid Said planned a revenge to avenge the death of his cousin. After a while he cheated almost all the rulers, advisors and generals of Siu into a diplomatic mission with him in Zanzibar, but he turned this into a massacre mission for the rulers of Siu. They were advised by the sultan to leave behind all their weapons since it was a diplomatic one. Upon arrival in Zanzibar, Seyyid Said individually asked every individual in the Siu mission the whereabouts of Amir Hemed and everybody who answered that he is dead was killed instantly by the Sultan. Some of the diplomats who answered that Amir Hemed is still alive were spared but they were imprisoned for life at fort Jesus in Mombasa which was also under the Sultan then. After the Sultan of Zanzibar massacred almost all the rulers of Siu, he forcefully arrested the ones remained in Siu town and deported them to Mombasa for imprisonment at fort Jesus along with the others who survived the Zanzibar Massacre.

When Siyu finally succumbed to Zanzibar's dominance, under Sultan Majid in 1863, it was one of the last towns on the whole of the Swahili Coast to do so.

Kizingitini
Kizingitini is situated on the North coast (east of Faza) and is the largest fishing port on the island. Lying slightly north of Rasini, the fishing port straddles 2° 4'11.90"S and 41° 8'29.92"E, and is the southern reach of the Kizingitini-Kiunga Spiny lobster fishery.

Shanga
Shanga is an important archaeological site, situated on the South-East coast of the island. It was excavated during an eight-year period, starting in 1980. The earliest settlement was dated to the 8th century, and the conclusion drawn from archaeological evidence (locally minted coins, burials) indicate that a small number of local inhabitants were Muslim, probably from the late 8th century onwards, and at least from the early ninth. The excavations also revealed a major break in the development of Shanga in the mid or late 11th century, with the destruction and the rebuilding of the Friday Mosque Horton relates this to the writing of the historian João de Barros, about members of an Arab tribe, generally believed to be Qarmatians, who arrived at the Swahili coast. De Barros connects these new arrivals with a republican style of government.

Shanga was abandoned between 1400–1425; the event was recorded in both the History of Pate and in oral tradition. The Washanga ("the people of Shanga") consist of a clan who still live in the nearby Swahili town of Siyu. Rezende's description of Siyu in 1634 states that "the kingdom of Sio has no king but is ruled by governors"

Evidence of Chinese exploration
In 1999, Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times reported a surprising encounter on the island of Pate. He found a village of stone huts. He talked to an elderly man living in the village who said that he was a descendant of Chinese explorers who were shipwrecked there centuries before. The Chinese had supposedly traded with the locals, and had even loaded giraffes onto their ship to take back to China. However, the Chinese ran aground on a nearby reef. Kristof found evidence that confirmed the man's story. Such evidence included the Asian features of the people in the village, plus Asian-looking porcelain artefacts.

National Geographic then published an article by Frank Viviano in July 2005. He had visited Pate island during the time he stayed on Lamu. Ceramic fragments had been found around Lamu, which the administrative officer of the local Swahili history museum claimed were of Chinese origin; specifically, from Zheng He's voyage to the Swahili Coast. The eyes of the Pate people resembled Chinese. Famao and Wei were some of the names among them which were speculated to be of Chinese origin. Their ancestors were said to be from indigenous women who intermarried with Chinese Ming sailors when they were shipwrecked. Two places on Pate were called "Old Shanga", and "New Shanga", which the Chinese sailors had named. A local guide who claimed descent from the Chinese showed Frank a graveyard made out of coral on the island, indicating that they were the graves of the Chinese sailors, which the author described as "virtually identical" to Chinese Ming dynasty tombs, complete with "half-moon domes" and "terraced entries".

title: Pate Island


text:
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 26

BCE/CE--BC/AD Clarification
The MoS currently states the following:

 * Both the BCE/CE era names and the BC/AD era names are acceptable, but be consistent within an article. Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Common Era, but when events span the start of the Common Era, use AD or CE for the date at the end of the range (note that AD precedes the date and CE follows it). For example, 1 BC–1|AD 1 or 1 BCE–1|1 CE.

However, two differences of opinion seem to have developed: There seems an obvious solution to this: state explicitly "Where an article only refers to events that happened within the last 2,000 years, do not use date notation", and to remove the reference to "Common Era", which isn't well known. I must say, even after having been involved in this debate for a long time, I was still in camp (2) and clearly still do not understand how US academics use the term (which isn't really surprising since I'm not an American academic). Also, clearly I am not alone. Since this is guidance for all, we really need to make it intelligible to all - especially as we seem to be agreed on what the underlying statement should be, jguk 19:41, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) That the guidance means that where articles only refer to events that happened within the last 2,000 years, no date notation should be used;
 * 2) That the guidance should be changed so that it states that where articles only refer to events that happened withint the last 2,000 years, no date notation should be used.

 * IMO, The current way that the guidelines are worded on this issue is fine. It seems to me that it is far more important that era designations be used in articles which span the 2 eras (to prevent confusion), than it is to designate an arbitrary cut-off point (2,000 years ago) regardless of whether both eras are used in the article. Regardless, the practical effect is virtually the same. Kaldari 21:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm only discussing the bit of the guidance that refers to articles that relate only to events in the last 2,000 years (ie those that don't need BC or a mixture of BC and AD in order to disambiguate the years). There seems to be general agreement that where an article only relates to years AD, no date identifier is necessary. What there's general disagreement on is whether the guidance already says that. That's why I think it's best to amend the guidance so that it is crystal clear, jguk 21:48, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Jguk, your change did more than clarify the bit about the past 2,000 years. Maurreen 02:46, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

True, I added the rationale for the guideline as well, jguk 19:04, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Kaldari that it's fine the way it is. Jonathunder 19:13, 2005 July 20 (UTC)
 * How can it be worded fine when many argue it should be changed to say something that others claim it already says? Surely it should be worded so that everyone interprets it in the same way. jguk 19:16, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Maybe people haven't read it. Maurreen 03:08, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, many people have read it - including an Arbitrator, who reads it in the same way as I do. Since we all seem agreed on the underlying point (that no date notation is required when an article only deals with events in the last 2,000 years), surely we should amend the wording to state this explicitly and unambiguously? jguk 07:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Surely, any changes should be done in a neutral way, and not to favor one style over the other. Maurreen 07:49, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The current wording favours BCE/CE style - as those unaccustomed to it apparently can't understand what it says! I'd have thought the statement that "No date notation should be used in articles that relate wholly to events within the last 2,000 years or to future events" was straightforward enough, jguk 12:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Again, that was not your only change. Maurreen 16:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be useful to state the rationale as well as the guideline. However, for now, let's see if we can agree the guideline sans rationale. Namely, replace:
 * Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Common Era, but when events span the start of the Common Era, use AD or CE for the date at the end of the range (note that AD precedes the date and CE follows it). For example, 1 BC–1|AD 1 or 1 BCE–1|1 CE .

with
 * No date notation should be used in articles that relate wholly to events within the last 2,000 years or to future events.

jguk 21:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * "Neither date notation" would be more clear than "No date notation." Other than that, I have no objection to the sentence. Maurreen 21:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * This change is a bad idea because:
 * It removes the guidance about what to do when years span the start of the Common Era.
 * It changes the wording from a guidance- "Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Common Era", to an absolute- "Neither date notation should be used". This removes some freedom for editors (for example, I think 70 CE looks better than just 70). Also, much like the "consistency" clause, could be misused by some to remove references to CE, which I feel is perhaps the real intent of this change.
 * "last 2,000 years" is ambiguous and unclear. Does this mean that era names should be used for years up to 5 CE?
 * Sortan 17:08, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Revert battle

 * 1) I ask the people involved in the current reverts about eras to please stop it and start a discussion. Multiple reverts are seldom productive.
 * 2) I probably disagree with Jguk more often than I agree. But in this case, he is more right than the other side. He waited more than a week after the last comment was made above, and the last comment essentially told him "OK". If anyone wants to disagree with the details, the productive way would be to discuss it here, not to revert. Maurreen (talk) 07:26, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I would like to know what on earth makes Jguk think that there is a consensus to change the section on eras. In the discussion above, he seems to be the only one to favour the change.  No proper survey has been taken on this page.  For heavens sake, let us not start another revert war about this.  The wording is fine as it is. Sunray 14:49, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
 * Do you really want another vote (or survey)? --ClemMcGann 16:26, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * To make a contested change to an article it is common practice in Wikipedia to follow the guideline on consensus. Yes, of course a survey on this talk page might be useful in determining consensus. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there is no consensus for a change right now. It might be a waste of time. I'm only saying that a change of this nature should only occur after a proper process has been followed. Sunray 16:55, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

 * There are perhaps two people agreeing to the change, and two people who indicated a preference for the status quo. That really isn't enough justification to make a change. Sortan 17:12, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I have requested page protection. I would also like to clarify that my point here is against the reversions and to point out that anyone reverting should at least be discussing the issue on this page. Maurreen (talk) 17:03, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * We don't need page protection. We need people to be reasonable.  The change Jguk made did not have consensus, and results in the paragraph providing less guidance than it did before.  Not useful, IMHO. Chuck 18:20, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Saying Common Era would be providing pov guidance. last 2,000 years is neutral and therefore appropriate.  --ClemMcGann 18:37, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Cease-fire on eras
I've suggested a cease-fire on eras, at the Village pump. Maurreen (talk) 09:08, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I've also suggested there that we remove or refine from the style guide the requirement for consistency within articles. Maurreen (talk) 22:27, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

--

#
Oneother thing while I'm here — the use of "#" to mean "number"; any chance of deprecating that? It's unusual outside very specialised contests, is far more common is the U.S. than anywhere else 9so far as i can tell), and is over-used by those writing popular-music articles (a typical sentence: "Jane Smith had 3 #1 singles and 5 #3s before the emotional anthem 'Bottle Bank' hit the racks and was hailed as her biggest #1 ever."). Shudder. --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 18:52, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * In those contexts, I prefer "No." Maurreen 21:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Often nothing at all is needed, but why use an abbreviation at all? (And why capitalised?)  The British English form, by the way, has no full stop. --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 13:47, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying it should be added to the style guide; I'm saying it's what I prefer. No biggie. Maurreen 16:34, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Values in parentheses: digits or words
I did some conversions in Flying Elephant. For example:
 * two Daimler 105 horsepower (78 kW) engines
 * two-inch (51 mm) armour plate

These were changed to:
 * two Daimler 105 horsepower (seventy-eight kilowatt) engines
 * two-inch (fifty-one millimetre) armour plate

I follow the guideline:
 * Use digits and unit symbols for the converted value. For example, '100 millimetre (4 in) pipe for 10 miles (16 km).

Is that guideline inappropriate? Bobblewik 18:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * That seems verbose to me. How about:
 * two Daimler, 105-horsepower (78 kW) engines
 * two-inch (51 mm) armour plate
 * —Wayward 19:17, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

 * Looks ok to me. If you can make that change without being reverted, please do so. Bobblewik 19:19, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Whoever spelled out the numbers is adhering too closely to the rule of thumb that any numbers below 100 should be spelled out. Your version follos the MoS. Chuck 19:21, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Units Section
Having there be general support for the most recent proposal, and no recent discussion, I have subsituted the proposal for the entire Units section as it was before. I included some of Chuck's wording suggestions for clarification, but did not add anything of significance.

As I said before, there are still some open ends that we put aside in favour of getting the section replaced. They are:
 * Quotes — use brackets instead of parentheses, as is normal for quotations
 * Division — mandate slashes for metric and abbreviations for imperial?

There are some things that, because of the new wording, were entirely deleted from the manual, though I think they merit mention. They are:
 * Superscript numerals ¹, ² and ³. These are preferable to the <sup> tags.
 * The line that said that there is no need to convert metric ton to imperial ton on approximations
 * The line concerning links to the orders of magnitude pages

Also, I removed the line about Measurements Debate as the last post on it was on 28 July. Neonumbers 12:15, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

And the guideline for conversion that we've moved to now, I've just realised, is very very different from the old one. The wording on that might still need discussion. (I get the impression everyone agrees on principle but not wording.) On that, points brought up but not responded to include: <begin quote>
 * I'd add guidelines about the order, possibly separate from the explicit instructions along the lines of
 * "for geographical or historical articles, the primary units should be those in use at that place at that time (e.g. an article about Great Britain should use British units first, and article about modern France should use metric units first).
 * "articles about technology, products or projects the primary units used should be those used by those responsible for the design, etc. (e.g. if a car was desgined in metric units the metric units should come first, if a project relates to "fish that live between 200 and 600ft below the ocean surface" then the imperial units should come first).
 * "sports articles should use the units used in the rules of the sport (e.g. a soccer pitch is defined in imperial, but a rugby pitch defined in metres. If both are used then use the order that the rules do).
 * "Use the order used by the primary source(s) for the article, where this is clear and consistent. If it isn't, use the order used by the first primary contributor (like the British English/US English differences)
 * I don't like the don't pluralise unit abbreviations point. If and when an abbreviation should be pluralised or not depends largely on the abbreviation in question - e.g. I'd expect to see "600 kg" / "600 yds" / either "600 lb" or "600 lbs" - but the article should be consistent on one or the other.
 * For the different versions, I'd say disambiguate on first usage, be consistent after that.
 * I'd add "If including a conversion would disrupt the flow, consider using a footnote instead".
 * I'd add "for dimensions, include the conversion for all the dimensions at the end, e.g. 6 miles × 14 miles (9.6 km × 22.5 km)" Thryduulf

<end quote> and
 * "Add to 5th bullet (italics = new): ... when using symbols and do not use trailing periods. metre is ..." by Chuck

The wording on that is still worth discussion, in my opinion, though it is better now than it was before.

Each point should probably be discussed in a different sub-section, if we want to discuss it. Neonumbers 12:15, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with using different sections to discuss different issues. Maurreen (talk) 14:00, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Use of spaces in measurements
Old paragraph

 * The reader should see a space between the value and the unit symbol: "25 kg", not "25kg". To ensure that the value and the unit symbol are displayed on the same line, editors should use a non-breaking space character rather than a standard space: type 25&nbsp;kg rather than 25 kg. Avoid entering the character directly, even when possible, for some browsers substitute all instances of it with the normal, breaking space.

was changed to

 * The reader should see a space between the value and the unit symbol, for example "25 kg" not "25kg". Use &nbsp; for the space (25&nbsp;kg) to ensure it does not break lines.

This hasn't been discussed recently. I don't see the rewording as intending to make any substantive changes. I just want to take issue with the point in the second sentence of the revised version.

There is some ambiguity in the way it is written: is this precribed in general, or is it just telling editors how to accomplish this when it is desired to avoid a break? I read both versions as at least some editors do, as prescribing nbsp in this situation.

This is a silly rule. We should not be prescribing nbsp in this situation.

 * 1) It is unnecessary. I suppose some other style guides may recommend it; I cannot come up with any off the top of my head, however.  Someone else probably will find some.
 * 2) *It is not a rule stated by the BIPM in their SI brochure.
 * 3) *It is not a rule stated by NIST in Special Publication 811, ''Guide for the Use of the International System of Units (SI).
 * 4) *The National Physical Laboratory in its SI Conventions webpage only says "space", not specifying nonbreaking.
 * 5) *It is not followed by NIST SP811; this document breaks lines between the number and the unit, in both the printed version and the pdf version.
 * 6) It makes things difficult for editors, especially in measurement intensive articles. All those   make reading the edit page very difficult.
 * 7) *Some would never have a line break in any case, even without nbsp, so nbsp is unnecessary even if it is desirable not to have a break in those particular measurements. This often happens in lists, with the measurements near the left margin, and in tables.
 * 8) Prescribing nbsp in this context obscures other contexts in which it is more important to avoid a line break:
 * 9) *There should be no line breaks within a number
 * 10) *If spaces are used as thousands separators (e.g., 299 792.458 m/s), then the space should be nonbreaking. Yes, the MoS currently deprecates that style, but it is still sometimes used.  Furthermore, no matter what the MoS says, that is always appropriate when it is the rule itself which is under discussion.
 * 11) *A space between a number and a common fraction (6 5/8 inches) should be a non-breaking space (6 5/8 inches).
 * 12) *There should be no line breaks within a unit of measure.
 * 13) *For example, "299.792458 m s-1 (in this case, &middot; (·) is an acceptable alternative to the space; it is also nonbreaking, at least in the browsers I use).
 * 14) *Similarly, to show that it doesn't depend on using that superscript notation, a specific impulse can be expressed as "450 N s/kg" (a middot is also an alternative in this case). Or the units of a U.S. R-value might be expressed as "ft² °F h/Btu".

Therefore, I think this rule should be reworded to say how to use it if it is desirable to avoid a space between a number and the unit, while making clear that this is not always required. Gene Nygaard 13:43, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

 * The history of this is interesting. It was a very simple guideline use a space character. It was changed without discussion to use a non-breaking space character.

 * I was not happy with that because it implied that an ordinary space character was unacceptable. There are two separate points:
 * specifying use of a space character
 * specifying a type of space character
 * So I reworded it] into two sentences.

 * I think the first point is important, uncontroversial, supported by standards and editor action. The second point is less important to me and you make valid points. If it were removed, I would not be unhappy. I certainly think it should be given lower status. Bobblewik 14:18, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Regardless of the style guide precedents, I think it looks sloppy for a number and its unit symbol to be separated by a line break. However, Gene's wording seems to be the most wiki-like.  You don't have to add non-breaking spaces, but editors who want to be extra anal could do so, where it makes sense, to avoid lines breaking at annoying places.
 * Maybe we should also clarify that there is no need to add non-breaking spaces if the units are spelled out. IMHO its not the disconnect between the number and the unit that looks sloppy, its the unit symbol ('kg', 'm', etc.) sitting alone at the beginning of a line that looks silly.  If the units are spelled out, it does not have that issue.Chuck 22:43, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I added the sentence because I thought it was decided but not clarified. I have no opinion on whether a space should be there or not, so if it needs to be removed, go ahead and remove it.  Apologies if my judgement fell wrong.  Neonumbers 06:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Use of hyphens and dashes in number ranges
In Pallandari there is the following text:
 * Temprature in sommer is almost 20--35 Centigrads and in in Winter -5--25 degree centigrades

I was trying to tidy it up. The author has put two hyphens or dashes between the digits for summer and winter. I could not work out whether the winter temperature range is -5 to -25 °C or -5 to 25 °C. That is a classic example of why I do not like to use a horizontal line to indicate both to and minus. In most cases the reader can decipher what the author intended. But the use of the term 'to' is unambiguous and requires less effort in all cases. Bobblewik 12:15, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I just did one like that (perhaps incorrectly, of course) at Dnipropetrovsk, a few hours before you posted this. Gene Nygaard 14:09, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Considering the grammar of that article, this is a niggling matter. However, I think it's safe to assume that it's −5 °C to 25 °C. —Wayward 14:21, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

 * For starters, I'd suggest that those hyphens are never appropriate when
 * the measurement includes, or reasonably might include, negative numbers
 * as a replacement for the intermediate word in formulations such as "between ... and ..." or "from ... to ...". Gene Nygaard 15:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

It's difficult to see why the example is ambiguous (though "-25–5" would be). Still, common sense is all that's needed in such cases, surely? The same goes for the misuse of the en-rules in "between x and y" or "from x to y". I've corrected many of these, and I very much doubt that yet another line in the MoS would have made any difference to the original writers.

 * Difficult to see? You do interpret it differently than Wayward did, don't you?  Obviously, it causes problems for at least one of you. Gene Nygaard 17:10, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, I misread it. Sorry. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 17:39, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

 * I think such a guideline would affect some original writers. But more importantly, it would affect the actions of subsequent editors, if they know they have the support of the Wikipedia community (and of other style guides as well) in making that change.  Gene Nygaard 17:16, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Prefer February 17, 1958
I almost got into a revert war with User:Gdr over the dates, but then he graciously restored my good edits and reverted the ones that... well, changed 17 February, 1958 to February 17, 1958.

Hmph. You know, I was planning to change them *all*, but here we go. The current Manual of Style entry on dates does not favor one date format over another. I would like to propose that we favor the February 17, 1958 setup because both wikilinks point to real articles, as opposed to, say 17 February, which is a redirect (try it: ). Thoughts? — Ambush Commander (Talk) 21:05, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Are you aware that you control the date format in your own user Preferences? If you wikify the dates like that they are adjusted to be displayed to you in your selected format.  (SEWilco 21:10, 11 August 2005 (UTC))
 * Yup. It's just that I'm working on a read-only bot and it keeps reporting that links like 17 February are redirects. Ah... I guess the real solution is just to program this in as an exception. Meh. — Ambush Commander (Talk) 21:30, August 11, 2005 (UTC)


text:
Oxyaenidae

Oxyaenidae ("sharp hyenas") is a family of extinct carnivorous placental mammals. Traditionally classified in order Creodonta, this group is now classified in its own order Oxyaenodonta ("sharp tooth hyenas") within clade Pan-Carnivora in mirorder Ferae. The group contains four subfamilies comprising fourteen genera. Oxyaenids were the first to appear during the late Paleocene in North America, while smaller radiations of oxyaenids in Europe and Asia occurred during the Eocene.

Etymology
The name of order Oxyaenodonta comes, name of hyena genus Hyaena and.

The name of family Oxyaenidae comes, name of hyena genus Hyaena and taxonomic suffix "-idae".

Description
They were superficially cat-like mammals that walked on flat feet, in contrast to modern cats, which walk and run on their toes. Anatomically, characteristic features include a short, broad skull, deep jaws, and teeth designed for crushing rather than shearing, as in the hyaenodonts or modern cats.

Oxyaenids were specialized carnivores that preyed on other terrestrial vertebrates, eggs and insects. They were capable of climbing trees, which is suggested by fossil evidence of their paws.

Taxonomy

 * Family: †Oxyaenidae (Cope, 1877)
 * Subfamily: †Machaeroidinae (Matthew, 1909)
 * Genus: †Apataelurus (Scott, 1937)
 * †Apataelurus kayi (Scott, 1937)
 * †Apataelurus pishigouensis (Tong & Lei, 1986)
 * Genus: †Diegoaelurus (Zack, Poust & Wagner, 2022)
 * Diegoaelurus vanvalkenburghae (Zack, Poust & Wagner, 2022)
 * Genus: †Isphanatherium (Lavrov & Averianov, 1998)
 * Isphanatherium ferganensis (Lavrov & Averianov, 1998)
 * Genus: †Machaeroides (Matthew, 1909)
 * †Machaeroides eothen (Matthew, 1909)
 * †Machaeroides simpsoni (Dawson, 1986)
 * Subfamily: †Oxyaeninae (Cope, 1877)
 * Genus: †Argillotherium (Davies, 1884)
 * †Argillotherium toliapicum (Davies, 1884)
 * Genus: †Dipsalidictis (Matthew & Granger, 1915)
 * †Dipsalidictis aequidens (Matthew & Granger, 1915)
 * †Dipsalidictis krausei (Gunnell & Gingerich, 1991)
 * †Dipsalidictis platypus (Matthew & Granger, 1915)
 * †Dipsalidictis transiens (Matthew & Granger, 1915)
 * Genus: †Malfelis (Stucky & Hardy, 2007)
 * †Malfelis badwaterensis (Stucky & Hardy, 2007)
 * Genus: †Oxyaena (Cope, 1874)
 * †Oxyaena forcipata (Cope, 1874)
 * †Oxyaena gulo (Matthew & Granger, 1915)
 * †Oxyaena intermedia (Denison, 1938)
 * †Oxyaena lupina (Cope, 1874)
 * †Oxyaena pardalis (Matthew & Granger, 1915)
 * †Oxyaena simpsoni (Van Valen, 1966)
 * †Oxyaena woutersi (Lange-Badré & Godinot, 1982)
 * Genus: †Patriofelis (Leidy, 1870)
 * †Patriofelis ferox (Marsh, 1872)
 * †Patriofelis ulta (Leidy, 1870)
 * Genus: †Protopsalis (Cope, 1880)
 * †Protopsalis tigrinus (Cope, 1880)
 * Genus: †Sarkastodon (Granger, 1938)
 * †Sarkastodon henanensis (Tong & Lei, 1986)
 * †Sarkastodon mongoliensis (Granger, 1938)
 * Subfamily: †Palaeonictinae (Denison, 1938)
 * Genus: †Ambloctonus (Cope, 1875)
 * †Ambloctonus major (Denison, 1938)
 * †Ambloctonus priscus (Matthew & Granger, 1915)
 * †Ambloctonus sinosus (Cope, 1875)
 * Genus: †Dipsalodon (Jepsen, 1930)
 * †Dipsalodon churchillorum (Rose, 1981)
 * †Dipsalodon matthewi (Jepsen, 1930)
 * Genus: †Palaeonictis (de Blainville, 1842)
 * †Palaeonictis gigantea (de Blainville, 1842)
 * †Palaeonictis occidentalis (Osborn, 1892)
 * †Palaeonictis peloria (Rose, 1981)
 * †Palaeonictis wingi (Chester, 2010)
 * Subfamily: †Tytthaeninae (Gunnell & Gingerich, 1991)
 * Genus: †Tytthaena (Gingerich, 1980)
 * †Tytthaena lichna (Rose, 1981)
 * †Tytthaena parrisi (Gingerich, 1980)

Phylogeny
Cladogram according to Gunnel in 1991:

title: Oxyaenidae


text:
Ray Noble (baseball)

Rafael Miguel Noble Magee (March 15, 1919 – May 8, 1998) was a Cuban catcher in the Negro leagues and Major League Baseball (MLB) who played professionally in the United States and his native country between 1945 and 1961. Born in Central Hatillo, in what is now Palma Soriano, Santiago de Cuba Province, he batted and threw right handed and was listed as 5 ft tall and 210 lb.

After spending all or part of four seasons with the New York Cubans of the Negro National League and two years at the Triple-A level of minor league baseball, Noble was 32 years old when he broke into the big leagues on April 18, 1951 with the New York Giants. The rookie was the Giants' second-string catcher that season, starting 26 games behind the plate (workhorse Wes Westrum started 119). He batted .234 with 33 hits, five home runs and 26 runs batted in; all were career highs. During that pennant-winning season, Noble was in the Giants' lineup as their catcher during the ninth inning of Game 3 of the 1951 National League tie-breaker series, when Bobby Thomson hit his famous home run. Noble handled no chances defensively in his one inning of work, and did not get a chance to bat. In the 1951 World Series that followed, he appeared in two games as a pinch hitter and defensive replacement and was hitless in two at bats. In the field, he caught three total innings in relief of Westrum and earned an assist when he threw out Gil McDougald of the New York Yankees for a caught stealing in the eighth inning of Game 6.

Noble played for the Giants through the 1953 season, though he spent most of 1952 in the Open-Classification Pacific Coast League. Altogether, in 107 MLB games, Noble collected 53 hits, including nine career homers, and batted .218. His career continued at the top levels of minor league baseball through 1961.

Noble died at the age of 79 in Brooklyn, New York.

title: Ray Noble (baseball)